I didn’t even think of Jason when cheating was brought up. Jason and Ruth doesn’t really seem like the sort of thing that has reached a point where exclusivity automatically attaches. Considering they ‘met’ (not technically their first time meeting, but) while Ruth was on a date with someone else, and they haven’t, to the best of my knowledge, gone on an actual date or… Well I guess she did call him her boyfriend a couple strips ago, to Jennifer… I guess it comes down to if that statement was genuine, or exaggeration for Jennifer’s sake.
Upon reviewing Ruth+Jason strips I think I rescind this and yeah they’re at least in the neighborhood where it needs to be a conversation before going assuming it’s okay to smooch others.
Oh please. “America has reached”…. I assume you are European, where you can drive for 4 hours and go through 10 different COUNTRIES. Do NOT confuse the actions/morals/whatever of Spokane, Washington, with Los Angeles, CA, with middle Indiana, with Washington, DC, with Boston, MA, with Dallas, Tx.
How someone in Indiana views relationships should not be confused or confabulated with anyone else in Indiana, let alone “America”.
Fine, fine, but just as most Yanks think there’s one “British accent” and know basically nothing about Europe (or anywhere else outside of the U.S., honestly), “America” is presented to the world in media essentially monolithically, i.e., there’s scarcely any representation of anything aside from L.A. and New York, except for occasional “hillbillies” or “Southern gentlefolk”. So the majority of outsiders aren’t aware of/ don’t care about the particularities you mention, just as Americans really don’t give a damn about “them funny Europeans” and whoever else.
In theory that sounds good, but it’s kind of a recipe for disaster, since it’s long been the default assumption once a relationship starts getting serious. People are more likely to get hurt by assuming they should be monogamous if they haven’t discussed it than vice versa.
Standard advice of “talk to each other about it” always applies if you’re unsure what assumptions the other party has.
Do you know how long it’s been the default? “Going steady” used to be a later step, so it wasn’t a default among high schoolers in the 1970s, but the ’70s was 50 years ago. Amongst adults I know it’s not really a default, because most adults I know who are trying for monogamy go on many dates in the process of trying to find someone to date monogamously.
I am saying that whether or not a particular pair of people have been on a date is A FACTOR in determining whether or not those people are in an exclusive relationship. The decisive factor, of course, is if both involved parties agree they are in an exclusive relationship, or agree they are not. Barring any explicit agreement one way or the other, each needs to make a judgment call regarding the other’s expectations.
GENERALLY, if one person is dating around, and the other person knows ahead of time they are dating around, continuing to date around is not inherently cheating unless/until they explicitly go exclusive.
In this case, given that Ruth and Jason have been more or less attached at the hip for the past couple days and have expressed feelings toward one another, there is a pretty reasonable expectation of exclusivity even if neither has brought it up directly.
I explicitly don’t do monogamy, so this is all kinda theoretical for me, but to you a couple days is enough time to assume you’re exclusive? Or am I misunderstanding?
A couple days generally, no. This SPECIFIC couple days between Ruth and Jason where specifically, so far as I can tell on review of recent strips, Jason has essentially moved into Ruth’s dorm room and they are spending every moment together outside of Ruth’s classes and Jason’s job are enough for me (and I apologize for this convoluted wording) to not assume that the other party is not assuming monogamy without some sort of conversation otherwise.
In this specific instance, were I the partner who wanted to smooch someone else, I would want to bring up the explicit conversation before such smooching takes place, so as to best ensure I don’t hurt my partner’s feelings unnecessarily. On the other hand, were I the other partner and smooching took place without an explicit conversation, I would consider that misunderstanding rather than betrayal, and simply ask that we have that conversation.
Every relationship is different. Part of it is discerning one’s specific partner’s expectations at any given point in a relationship (whether through explicit discussion or through more implicit signals), and, really, deciding if you care about those expectations. In both directions. For example, if you make a point of explicitly laying out what your partner SHOULD expect of you, and your partner sets different expectations that you did not agree to, it is absolutely fair to decide not to care about those. On the other hand if you do agree to expectations and then fail to live up to them, you’d better have a good reason.
Sometimes there needs to be compromise, sometimes there needs to be forgiveness, and sometimes there needs to be maturely recognizing that something isn’t going to work. And if you can figure out exactly which applies where, you can make millions writing a book to let the rest of us know.
interesting discussion, some good points made. as another non-monogamous person, i think it’s worth mentioning that non-monogamy shouldn’t be assumed either. when there’s been a change in the relationship, things are fuzzy & you’re not sure what the other person expects, that’s the time to talk. whether that be at 2 days or 2 months or whenever.
Spiderkiss? Like the small one ties the big one up in silk to mate but then has to run away before their partner breaks free and sucks their liquified insides out like a milkshake?
Those are the guys who pretend to be bad at Sonic games for views and helped along the “Sonic games suck and that’s why we like them” sentiment, right?
Arin has difficulty concentrating on playing any and all games while also hosting a show, and this results in sloppy but also funny gameplay.
He also is critical of things he likes, so as a major fan of Sonic, he complains loudly and often about sonic games. However, he mostly complains about the badly made ones – Sonic Boom in particular, but most of the 3d Sonic games since they’re all at least somewhat awful.
One of my pet hates is the expectation that two characters who openly hate each other are clearly meant to be, with people getting kicking-and-screaming outraged when they don’t hook up, so it was weirdly cathartic to see the almost kiss in panel 2 descend into violence immediately.
And when it happens its cheerABLE, aka doesnt look like flaming garbage every single time, the way it IS, and is supposed to look without heavy set up and prior consent… even then, not the healthiest desire. Nothing to be normalized, displayed, or to be proud of. At best that’s transgression-centric fetish and at worst it is just literal assault and abuse.
I always liked Ruth for other reasons, mental health and meds and alcoholism struggles, and never really liked Jennifer.
I think violence can be foreplay but like a flirtatious sword duel or a flirtatious hand to hand fight. Like I think Enemies to Lovers only really works if there’s an in between step where they are both still fighting because they’re expected to but they don’t actually hate each other anymore and they’re obviously attracted to each other and clearly care about each other even in a weird way
Those examples of violence made a new connection in my brain – now I did fencing in college with the “violence club” and Mr. Miyagi was teaching Daniel “Miyagi-do violence”.
This is a bit of different scenario since the two don’t openly hate each other and had a history during their relationship of using fighting as foreplay – consensually except for the pre-relationship stuff.
Jennifer’s letting her anger out here, but it at least wasn’t open before this. She might think Ruth is lying about being concerned about her, but again it’s certainly clear that Ruth wasn’t openly hating her.
imagine being a freshman and seeing this for the first time, and then another person like “don’t worry you’ll get used to this it happens every other week”
or entering the college hearing of these ‘legendary’ dramas and the dorms being fairly uneventful
Honestly I think it’s sort of flirting. This is their idea of flirting, with how messed up their dynamic is.
The thing that drew them to each other and that sparks the most intense feelings of attachment is the idea that they are both “poison”, but they “can touch each other”–that is, they can feel free to let loose their worst impulses and lay bare the deep vulnerable parts of themselves they’re most ashamed of, without judgement or it damaging the other person or their relationship.
So to them, duking it out and being viscous at one another is an intense form of vulnerability that they can’t seem to reach with anyone else, and it reignites the spark that fueled their desire to be together in the first place.
Both Ruth and Billie are intensely sensitive to the perceptions and judgements of others, and so the rare experience of not having to feel on guard in that way around someone feels very special, like something they want to cling to. And the lack of judgement makes it feel to them like there are no lasting consequences for enabling each other’s worst impulses.
But the truth of the matter is, despite how it feels, there are negative consequences. For themselves and for each other. Their partner is not actually immune to toxicity just because they themselves are toxic, though they’re more accepting and understanding about it than others might be.
So long as they each (deep down) believe that the shameful parts of themselves are immutable and unchangeable, so long as they fail to address their insecurities and instead bury them down, they’ll remain vulnerable to that intoxicating pull of validation from each other.
Basically, Jennifer’s outburst here is being caused by recent events triggering her insecurities and fears about herself–the fear that there are things deeply wrong with her that she can’t change, no matter how hard she tries. And Ruth is the person she instinctively goes to to work through those sorts of feelings.
“Stop lying!” means “Stop hiding the anger and resentment and frustration. I don’t want to hold them in any more. Be vulnerable with me, so I can feel free to let this out. Please.”
And that’s why they have that moment in panel 2.
Quite frankly this is deeply romantic in a super fucked up way and I’m so into it.
They are broken up. Billie doesn’t have the right to demand that anymore, she doesn’t deserve it. The whole point of breaking up is to disentangle from all the mutual demands and expectations and go your separate ways. All you are required to give your ex is the barest of politeness, with as little interaction as possible. Especially when someone is as violent and volatile as Jenifer, avoiding her entirely for a couple of years will keep everyone out of the hospital and the jail.
I agree, well put. Ruth seems to be doing her best to actually move on, and while that’s very much a work in progress, I believe that when she is polite or kind to Jennifer, she means it- or at least wants to, because she knows the way they were (separately and together) is unhealthy. I mean, I thought that’s what Jennifer was doing too, per what she said to Walky when we came back from the timeskip- and maybe she is, we just haven’t seen the therapy while we have seen her spending time with fake awful people like Raidah, so it’s harder to say. But this right here feels like Jennifer just rooting around trying to get that old familiar thing, without regard for whether or not that’s a good thing or whether or not Ruth wants to be involved in it.
Yeah– Jennifer’s behavior right now isn’t just because of Ruth. It’s the way Joyce was insensitive, the way Sarah was judgemental and shaming her, it was Walky needling her and being a jerk, it was Mary being horrible on purpose to rile her up (to manipulate her into getting into trouble of course), and it’s Raidah being fake-nice all the time in ways that she’s probably picking up on only subconsciously as of yet.
Yuuup. Ruth isn’t close to Jennifer’s biggest annoyance right now, but Ruth is the most persistent background sting. Plus Ruth is the person most likely around to actually hit her back.
Destroy the dorm? Not hardly. These two are powerful enough sure, but Jennifer could barely break a door with her strength. I doubt they could severly damage a dorm constructed with 21st century techniques. Maybe like a studio apartment though. I think they could decently wreck a studio apartment.
Yeah, that is straight-up concussion material right there. That’s the kind of fall you wind up in a CT scanner for, spending the next several months in a quiet, dark room, waiting for your head to stop hurting. Scary.
Hey, I mean, Amber’s got roller derby to channel her destructive urges, so why not wrestling for both/either of these two? I imagine that the dorm maintenance person would appreciate that, if no one else.
I really really Ruth kicks her ass. Just absolutely humiliates her. You talked to Joyce, Jennifer, you should have fucked off then, not pick a fight with your ex because you’re garbage.
My thoughts exactly, re: a concussionworthy slam. Seriously, though, after a fall like that onto a hard floor with no tuck or roll, most folks would need to go to the hospital.
…I wonder where Ruth learned to streetfight? We know her grandfather roughs up her little brother, at least. Was there something else going on that taught her the necessity of fight training?
At this point I don’t know who broke up with who or if it was a mutual separation but whoever of them did pull the trigger on that. Yeah that was a good call probably.
Sigh, Jennifer is really trying hard to be in the ‘in group’ over in the other dorm, but clearly she’s still holding in a lot of aggression.
Wonder if Asher will end up seeing the bruises or if Jennifer will be using makeup for that….
Well, Ruth is more or less always down for a scruff up, which isn’t necessarily good for an RA… wonder if the Sir (i absolutely forget the bloke’s name) is here or if he has yet to come back over. And if he decided to commit to Ruth and if this ends up ending in trainwreck sexy if Ruth can forgive herself….
This comment is throwing me for a loop, because for the life of me I’m certain you must mean Jason (Ruth’s new boyfriend) when you say “the Sir” and “the bloke”, but “Sir” is how Ruth addresses her very abusive grandfather so there is a sufficient amount of ambiguity that I’m really scratching my head here.
Jason, yup! Refreshed my memory lower down in the comments.
Frankly it’s not something I call anyone who’s not polite? Hasn’t earned it? Used to be the rank for a butcher in mail, but more recently the ignoble nobility-at-heart appointed by the monarchs, of which there are very few known now. Then just general politeness term other than Mr.. I’m just an English enthusiast not deep into DoA lore. Yikes did I not mean that…
And its a bit concerning if you immediately hear “sir” and go “things abusive peeps make peeps call them” generally or specifically, I get it but unless you carry that for yourself you may be too invested in this parasocial relationship with the DoA cast…
But then again I can’t say I don’t heavily relate to Ruth’s struggle with psyche/anti-depressant meds and potentially finding very bad interractions with drugs including alcohol.
Also the alcoholism. But yeah yikes I didn’t remember that at all.
“And its a bit concerning if you immediately hear “sir” and go “things abusive peeps make peeps call them” generally or specifically, I get it but unless you carry that for yourself you may be too invested in this parasocial relationship with the DoA cast… ”
uh..
buddy, the only character in this comic who is refered to as “sir” is Ruth’s abusive grampa. It is far more likely to be what everyone reading your comment is gonna think about.
It would really only be concerning if that carried outside the context of the comic, as opposed to in this comment section, in which we are talking about the comment and you using it in the same reference manner as the one character in the comic that seems to insist on that being his form of address (and whose real name I think we only know because of the tags).
If you’re an English enthusiast you should be aware that context matters in language, and we’re operating in a context very specific to the source material here. Maybe you shouldn’t be so critical and/or judgmental about terms carrying meaning in reference to a source material you yourself admit not to be deep in.
Maybe chill out a little on the “concern” about how other people here interpret your words and be more willing to clarify if misunderstood, is basically what I’m saying.
Ah right, ten days ago by the tags. Just before the ‘Get me Billie’ conversation, so literally no more than half an hour ago. Ruth: Can I bully you, Jason: (paraphrasing) Oh, do I have a choice?
It’s certainly not guaranteed he’d have stuck around for that, even if he seems self destructive and self sabotaging at times. He doesn’t seem 100% on the masochist thing, maybe 50% at best. Put up with it if there’ll be good stuff later.
The timeframes of this comic mess with me sometimes.
(this particular strip isn’t that nsfw, but be aware that the overall series is lol, idk how much of an overlap of ma3 fans there are here compared to ppl who read QC b/c willis and jeph jacques are friends)
Where is Jason now? Someone needs to be the voice of sanity here and he’s probably right there in Ruth’s room. Does bartender training come with crowd control and bouncer training? He can call security … that would get Ruth in trouble. Does he call Becky? I’m rooting for him to step up and be very polite and firmly British here to save the day, but I’m afraid he’s gong to be doing an Arthur Dent just wringing his hands and saying, “oh dear, oh dear.”
I’d guess that Galasso would see any fight in his establishment (Or attempt to break up a fight by someone else) as an affront to his authority and thus he’d get into it himself.
NOBODY BEATS FACE AT GALASSO’S EXCEPT GALASSO
Actually, they are.
I can’t eat popcorn due to digestive issues, so I buy rice crisps to simulate the experience.
However, the implied joke was meant to be that I would need either the rice crisps or the vibrator, depending on the outcome of the scene, not both at once. The water bottle, however, paired with both salty snack or rehydration.
And now the joke is the meta of me explaining the joke.
I believer Wellerman is referring to the flavor powder often used on such snacks.
I generally prefer the caramel flavored ones, which don’t use powder, so no. However, we do also have cheese flavored ones, which do, so I understand the concern.
Maybe I like my ships totally fucked up to the core. That’s what makes them interesting. That’s what gives them potential for conflict and growth and makes stories about them tense and engaging.
Them having broken up and it causing even more tension like this just makes me ship it harder, and you can’t stop me. Because you see, they are not real people, and no real person is harmed by two fictional characters kissing when they probably shouldn’t, and I am not morally obligated to only find unproblematic dynamics in fiction personally compelling!
I…guess it’s a good way to stay in shape if fighting is an aphrodisiac/being in a Fight Club*/Hookup type group
*I’ve never seen the movie (i know ppl say ‘it’s a classic’ but i don’t really watch enough movies to really appreciate all the ‘classics’ out there lol)
The other day I was looking through old strips and comics, and I realized that I’ve been reading this comic since 2014. Wow. I got caught up, or at least started commenting, just a few days before Becky appeared at IU. It’s wild to think that it has been that long and to think about how things have changed.
Gunnerkrigg Court was the first webcomic I ever really got into, and I’ve been reading that since maybe 2009. And I know there are people–including people here!– who have been with ongoing webcomics longer. It’s such an interesting form of media, in part because of the regularity of it. Like, I have thought about Dumbing of Age at least once almost every day for almost eight years. Wild.
It’s really interesting being a minor in spaces where you’re not the target audience like that. I remember reading a piece of serial fiction that had regular NSFW content from when I was maybe fifteen. I engaged in the comics but didn’t mention my age until I was in college. And, in addition to the community/author aspect, there’s the experience of “I was younger than these characters when I started on this and now I am older.”
Willis being a pioneer in webcomics means I’ve been reading his work for roughly 15 years and I am not remotely close to being one of his longest fans. His consistency in (ever growing) quality and output over decades is impressive.
For me, it was Quiltbag.
When the creator of that ended it, they said something akin to ‘go read Dumbing of Age – it’s basically the same idea, but done better’.
I was sad, but I was like, okay, I’ll check it out – and I did. And I’ve been here ever since.
Out of curiosity I explored other webcomics in the Hiveworks portal, and started reading DOA in 2018, and since then I have come to love this comic and its community. 🥰
I was here when it was just Shortpacked (I remember spending most of a week reading through Roomies and It’s Walky to catch up) and when DoA started I was there pretty much day one. Wild to think it was so long ago.
I remember reading a lot of sprite comics back in the day. I can’t remember what comic I found first but I recall Girlyyy being one of the first followed by DoA. Probably about 2011/2012. Then I caught up on shortpacked. And then Roomies/Walky a few years afterwards.
I remember crying in the shower after Robin and Leslie broke up haha.
Order of the Stick was my gateway webcomic back in 2012, but I’ve never had that many comics I was following at any given time. I saw a lot of isolated strips from Dumbing of Age and Shortpacked! over the years (Mostly Dina comics) and was always vaguely aware of them, but I didn’t actually read through the full archives and start following daily updates until a couple of years ago.
My webcomics reading history is kinda spotty. I think the very first one I read was Bob and George, back when I was in middle school and was obsessed with Mega Man, although the comic was over by that point. I mostly remember reading sprite comics at around that time. In high school I binged El Goonish Shive and was following it actively for a while, but kinda lost track when it ran into some schedule slippage– I should really check back in on it. I can’t remember any other webcomics I read between then and getting into this one, shortly after the time skip, after which I binged Shortpacked! and then It’s Walky! et al.
Penny Arcade and B^U were my first introduction to webcomics, back around 2003 or so. Soon after (2004 maybe?), I shifted from gaming comics to story-driven ones like Real Life. Questionable Content was the gateway drug to all the others that I still read to this day, since Jeph had (and still has) that mile-long list of links to other comics next to his own.
I started reading Shortpacked! a couple years later, but didn’t dig deeper since the Walkyverse lore seemed so deep. (That waited until the “from the beginning, in best reading order” reruns started.) I’ve been reading DoA since the beginning, though.
I’m older. :p
PA and RL and MegaTokyo, and I wandered over here sometime around “It’s the rain” and stuck around. Got to see IW! end (with drama) and SP! start (with silliness like that first Unicron strip… and later more drama).
I really got into webcomics with Lapin and Bigger than Cheese, I can’t remember exactly when. Lapin begun in 2001 and was already pretty advanced when I read it. I also already had read some french-speaking strips made for internet prior to 1999, and read several french speaking slice-of-life comics blogs (a special style you can still find with Boulet but was really widely done then, around 2003 I’d say since I read the beginning of Cha, Laurel, Lilitualski, kek) irregularily.
But I don’t really get that “I’m older than them now” vibe from webcomics – much more by novels I used to read and re-read…
I had seen scattered references/ads about DOA around the start of 2020 and someone mentioned it was set at IU. I was intrigued since my oldest son graduated from IU. Plus the lockdown had started so I had plenty of time. It came as a surprise when the first online strip I read was a flashback of Amazing Girl driving a critically injured Mike to the ER. Not what I expected. Also, I was intrigued by the long history of the various versions of the strip, and I sure had plenty of time to do a deep dive into the archives.
Not actually sure what my first webcomic was. User Friendly is one of the first I remember. It was the Fans crossover that led me to It’s Walky!, iirc.
I cannot remember the first webcomics I read, it was early in the internet era, so around late 1990s-early 2000s. It didn’t occur to me to save the bookmarks, so I would find one, then eventually forget where I found it. I also lost many in a computer crash in the mid 2000s that wiped out my bookmarks. One of the earliest ones I can remember was a British one, it would post scans of old magazine comics from the 50s and 60s, and make up new texts for them. Then the comments section would compete to come up with something better, it was great fun. I never did manage to rediscover that one. Also remember User Friendly, was the first Canadian one I found. Other early ones were Sabrina, mostly due to the Amiga stuff, Melonpool, Penny Arcade, PVP and Order of the Stick. Then there were ones like Megatokyo, which I found, lost and later rediscovered. I quickly found a few comic hosting sites, like The Duck and Keenspot, and eventually found Queen of Wands, which I discovered just before it finished, which led me to Something Positive, Questionable Content, Girls with Slingshots, El Goonish Shive, etc. And of course Willis’s comic, I think I discovered it somewhere in the late part of It’s Walky, or early part of Shortpacked!, likely mid 2000s. Things then exploded from there. I currently have over 300 webcomics bookmarked and regularly read over 50.
“I currently have over 300 webcomics bookmarked and regularly read over 50.”
Wow, I only regularly read, like, five webcomics currently. Used to be more, but some ended or became sporadic in updates, and I didn’t really replace them.
Y’know the worst bit is, Ruth might legitimately be fond of Jennifer, be healthy enough now to express that normally, might WANT to be pleasant, and understands that the ‘Billie’ she loved wants and expects a certain thing from her. And Ruth just wants Jennifer to be satisfied, to close it, so is either reverting to her anger or summoning it on command, to please. Honestly hope its somehow other than that, but… sigh.
It’s obvious that Ruth and Jen agree whatever happened is Ruth’s fault or was an accident due to her being very stupid with things. I’m sensing an alcohol-interacting meds incident and or potentially… severe psychological… allergy, to boozy meds. So… well honestly hope they stay faithful but ‘suicide pact alcoholic fuck buddies’ was never once remotely healthy. So they might not value themselves enough to stop it.
Mmm… Iiiiiii… hope someone pokes their head in so these two knuckleheads can be shamed into behaving….
Mm not really matter of romantic feelings but romantic action, there’s every indication that Ruth isn’t entirely over Jennifer. Jen’s pissed at whatever happened on Halloween tho and at least by now Ruth respects that. Its very clear that both agree Ruth Was Stupid. Its more likely “Don’t want to make her cheat” than “don’t want her at all.”
Eh, honestly I see it more as, well the last thing we ses Ruth tell Jason is thar she wants to bully him, which may or may not have caused Jason to leave? Here’s a volunteer now, either way.
That was how I was hoping THIS page would go. “You’re lying! [incl about other partner] and Billie kicked in the door to see Ruth and Jason’s consensual power exchange.
assuming this eventually gets an ending/epilogue, wonder how many ppl will be left standing without some kinda physical/emotional scars after graduation lol
Was Jennifer moving in closer to try to kiss Ruth (or to get Ruth to kiss her) in the second panel? If so, I am glad Ruth rejected that (though not the physical violence part).
Do we still not know what the hell happened between them? Like I know they’ve both got issues but Jennifer came in acting like a fucking lunatic and I can’t even begin to guess what Ruth might have done that’s left her in a violent rage for months.
Good thing that Ruth refused to let Jennifer/Billie’s face get closer and closer to hers. Good thing that, despite all of her “I’m sorry for”, she actually seems to know very well that between them can’t continue anything because that hurts both of them. I hope it doesn’t escalate into even more violence, but Jennifer looks desperate and she could wants continue. I wonder if Mary is seeing all this, if Carla hears them from her room and if Jason is in Ruth’s room.
Or she was being nice because she’s trying to be a better person, and trying to get over her ex in a healthy manner and NOT wish for their death, because that’s not a good thing.
Not everyone changes so quickly there, Jennifer… no matter how much you insist you have.
Just read another comic having a pro-wrestling arc, and I found this comment to be funny, and also equally applicable to both comics (except that one doesn’t have a “Billingsworth” character).
Is- is this better? like I actually can’t tell if this is better than them antagonizing each other and then making out??? I hope Jennifer/Billies head/neck is alright.
In a normal school, Billie/Jennifer -who just physically assaulted an employee of the college and fellow student without apparent provocation- would at best be placed on academic suspension while the school investigates. And at worst be completely expelled.
By those standards, Ruth would have been gone long ago.
Even in a “normal school”, fights happen. They need to get reported for anyone to get expelled.
Alright, I guess it’s my turn to stop reading the comments for a stroy arc so I can avoid all the “these two are superviolent with each other, clearly they’re in love and should make out” fuckshits.
I get that Willis used a common enemies-to-lovers trope for these characters, but this relationship was built on emotional abuse and physical assault, and it eventually led to an alcoholism-fueled suicide pact. I don’t think it’s weird to be grossed out about people romanticizing that.
More like it started with an alcoholism-fueled suicide pact and grew into something more. Both Jennifer and Ruth supported each other, in their own messed up ways. Their relationship helped them both stop drinking and seek therapy. Both of them were better people and in a better place at the end of the first season than at the start and their relationship was a good part of that process.
Also it was left in a good place before the time skip and we don’t yet have closure on how it ended or why neither of them seem to be in good shape now.
The physical fighting specifically was also a consensual part of the relationship for both of them – once it actually was a relationship. It was a turn on for both of them. It’s possible that the people romanticizing them are remembering that part of the pairing more than the early abuse.
I think a lot (most?) of the readers cheering this ship on are fully aware that if these were real people this would be Extremely Bad News. DoA has some sweet and healthy relationships with open communication and respect for boundaries. Then it also has this extremely entertaining absolute shitshow
Hey this just in but enjoying a story about messed up fictional people and the complex emotions that dynamic inspires is not the same thing as whatever you think “romanticizing” is. In fact, I like it more than things that are good and clean and unproblematic, because stories and dynamics like this give us the opportunity to explore all of the many complicated and messed up emotions in ourselves…in a safe way. Through fiction, rather than with actual real people.
For example: If Ruth and Jennifer were real, it would be much healthier for both them both to just read or even write romance novels or fanfic or whatever about enemies to lovers to work or similar dynamics through their complex feelings for each other, rather than to actually engage in their mutually toxic relationship.
But this is a story, and stories don’t always need to be concerned with what’s healthy. They ought to be about what’s most interesting. Sometimes, people slowly finding real stability and safety and growing to be more healthy people is more interesting. Sometimes it’s not. And sometimes, in order to reach that place of stability, it involves trudging through the mud and confronting ugly things in ugly ways that aren’t ideal or nice.
Plenty of the readers in the fanbase romanticize Billie/Ruth and have for a long time. People still comment about how they want them to get back together and enjoyed them as a couple.
Ruth verbally abused Billie, stole from her, physically fought her, and sexually assaulted her, all while in a position of authority over her. Billie entered a relationship with her abuser that spiraled into a suicide pact.
Now that’s certainly an interesting relationship and story arc, but can you blame anyone who is uncomfortable with readers glorifying that relationship? Seems understandable to me.
We all know they’re not real. I think it’s a little rude to call people “fuckshits” for liking when the pretend girls don’t actually hurt each other IRL, with the implication that we’d also be fine with their behavior if it were real. It’s actually fine and not a problem to enjoy these two and I don’t like the idea that it shouldn’t be.
I’ve never visited this campus, but I know that buildings of a certain vintage have poured concrete floors. For the hallway to fill with a “Wump” sounds that loud, that had to be one hell of an impact.
Enjoy your head fracture, Jennifer. You earned it.
This is that Love + Hate sauce, like, this is Anakin vs. Obi-Wan shit, to use a crude nerd comparison, except these two were (canonically) in love and made out
In the third frame, and I don’t know it it’s intentional, or, again, just me, but if you scroll sideways to cover the down-turned corner of Ruth’s mouth, she has an evil grin.
This is a good ol’ mix of Ruth enacting self defense, but technically excessive force. I hope she doesn’t get too fucked over by this, because she’s clearly not the aggressor in this.
I’m inclined to agree. A lot of scuffles like this, even really violent ones, just don’t get reported to authorities of any sort, because people mind their own business. At this point, I figure the girls in this hallway are used to these two going at it, so it’s barely a disruption, and it seems to have lasted all of about 30 seconds. Really no need to get any trouble-dispensers involved.
I just found this comic four days ago and burned through the whole thing up to now and I have to say…it’s fantastic. If you want to know the artist, study the art. It saddens me that David is clearly the sort of man I’d be great friends with but will probably never get to meet, simply because the popularity of this comic inundates him with a million other people who I’m sure feel the same.
So… Thank you for making this David. Many of the topics you cover here hit close to home. I understand that by making this you’ve put your thoughts and values and history out there for the scrutiny of strangers. That takes courage. And strangers can often be unkind. But you’ve humanized *many* more people that you will probably never meet. Including me. And that means something.
Quite a binge, isn’t it? Welcome to the comic. Maybe one day the world will be less covered in death and their kids will be a little older, and Willis will do conventions again and you’ll get to meet them.
(Also, I don’t know if being referred to as a man bothers them, but my understanding is that Willis is nonbinary; they use he/they pronouns, so you’re fine on that front.)
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OH SHIT! 🤯
This is gonna be quite the BRAWL!! 😮
*plays Dragon Ball Z battle music on hacked muzak*
Points for going with Kikuchi over Faulconer; I see you are an alien parasite of taste.
PRETEND THIS
STOP LYING THERE
CONDESCENDING PILEDRIVER
I DIDN’T MISS YOU THAT TIME.
Welp, that’s it, that’s the best comment. We can all go home and bask in the glow of having read this.
Hahaha I’m so glad they didn’t kiss!
Me too, cheating is not okay. Of course, severe head trauma isn’t fantastic either.
If you had to pick one or the other, though? 😛
can i get a helmet?
Cheating feels like the least problematic reason. Maybe for Asher it would be a little messed up, but Jason is no real loss.
Especially if he gets to watch.
I didn’t even think of Jason when cheating was brought up. Jason and Ruth doesn’t really seem like the sort of thing that has reached a point where exclusivity automatically attaches. Considering they ‘met’ (not technically their first time meeting, but) while Ruth was on a date with someone else, and they haven’t, to the best of my knowledge, gone on an actual date or… Well I guess she did call him her boyfriend a couple strips ago, to Jennifer… I guess it comes down to if that statement was genuine, or exaggeration for Jennifer’s sake.
Upon reviewing Ruth+Jason strips I think I rescind this and yeah they’re at least in the neighborhood where it needs to be a conversation before going assuming it’s okay to smooch others.
…Are you saying America has reached the point where it’s not even a relationship if you haven’t “gone on an actual date”?
Oh please. “America has reached”…. I assume you are European, where you can drive for 4 hours and go through 10 different COUNTRIES. Do NOT confuse the actions/morals/whatever of Spokane, Washington, with Los Angeles, CA, with middle Indiana, with Washington, DC, with Boston, MA, with Dallas, Tx.
How someone in Indiana views relationships should not be confused or confabulated with anyone else in Indiana, let alone “America”.
America, the unique land of distinctive cultures represented by 500+ channels all broadcasting the same “news”.
So, in your view Fox and CNN are broadcasting the same news?
Fine, fine, but just as most Yanks think there’s one “British accent” and know basically nothing about Europe (or anywhere else outside of the U.S., honestly), “America” is presented to the world in media essentially monolithically, i.e., there’s scarcely any representation of anything aside from L.A. and New York, except for occasional “hillbillies” or “Southern gentlefolk”. So the majority of outsiders aren’t aware of/ don’t care about the particularities you mention, just as Americans really don’t give a damn about “them funny Europeans” and whoever else.
Monogamy should never be an assumption. If you want someone else to give up their bodily autonomy, that is something you should explicitly state.
In theory that sounds good, but it’s kind of a recipe for disaster, since it’s long been the default assumption once a relationship starts getting serious. People are more likely to get hurt by assuming they should be monogamous if they haven’t discussed it than vice versa.
Standard advice of “talk to each other about it” always applies if you’re unsure what assumptions the other party has.
Do you know how long it’s been the default? “Going steady” used to be a later step, so it wasn’t a default among high schoolers in the 1970s, but the ’70s was 50 years ago. Amongst adults I know it’s not really a default, because most adults I know who are trying for monogamy go on many dates in the process of trying to find someone to date monogamously.
I am saying that whether or not a particular pair of people have been on a date is A FACTOR in determining whether or not those people are in an exclusive relationship. The decisive factor, of course, is if both involved parties agree they are in an exclusive relationship, or agree they are not. Barring any explicit agreement one way or the other, each needs to make a judgment call regarding the other’s expectations.
GENERALLY, if one person is dating around, and the other person knows ahead of time they are dating around, continuing to date around is not inherently cheating unless/until they explicitly go exclusive.
In this case, given that Ruth and Jason have been more or less attached at the hip for the past couple days and have expressed feelings toward one another, there is a pretty reasonable expectation of exclusivity even if neither has brought it up directly.
I explicitly don’t do monogamy, so this is all kinda theoretical for me, but to you a couple days is enough time to assume you’re exclusive? Or am I misunderstanding?
A couple days generally, no. This SPECIFIC couple days between Ruth and Jason where specifically, so far as I can tell on review of recent strips, Jason has essentially moved into Ruth’s dorm room and they are spending every moment together outside of Ruth’s classes and Jason’s job are enough for me (and I apologize for this convoluted wording) to not assume that the other party is not assuming monogamy without some sort of conversation otherwise.
In this specific instance, were I the partner who wanted to smooch someone else, I would want to bring up the explicit conversation before such smooching takes place, so as to best ensure I don’t hurt my partner’s feelings unnecessarily. On the other hand, were I the other partner and smooching took place without an explicit conversation, I would consider that misunderstanding rather than betrayal, and simply ask that we have that conversation.
Every relationship is different. Part of it is discerning one’s specific partner’s expectations at any given point in a relationship (whether through explicit discussion or through more implicit signals), and, really, deciding if you care about those expectations. In both directions. For example, if you make a point of explicitly laying out what your partner SHOULD expect of you, and your partner sets different expectations that you did not agree to, it is absolutely fair to decide not to care about those. On the other hand if you do agree to expectations and then fail to live up to them, you’d better have a good reason.
Sometimes there needs to be compromise, sometimes there needs to be forgiveness, and sometimes there needs to be maturely recognizing that something isn’t going to work. And if you can figure out exactly which applies where, you can make millions writing a book to let the rest of us know.
interesting discussion, some good points made. as another non-monogamous person, i think it’s worth mentioning that non-monogamy shouldn’t be assumed either. when there’s been a change in the relationship, things are fuzzy & you’re not sure what the other person expects, that’s the time to talk. whether that be at 2 days or 2 months or whenever.
Excellent form tho
Fight fight fight! Kiss? No! Fight!
Spiderkiss?
Spiderkiss? Like the small one ties the big one up in silk to mate but then has to run away before their partner breaks free and sucks their liquified insides out like a milkshake?
Now I’m seeing Spinerette tying up some guy so she can have a kid to raise with Marylynne. (Different comic than this one)
Haven’t checked up on that series since they started doing the White Heron stories more and more often.
The League of Canadian Superheroes is up right now.
I don’t know what that is. Do they have Wolverine and Squirrel Girl?
They have the Werewolf of London, Ontario and Katt O’Nine Tails. Much better in my opinion.
Also, sorry about the accidental flagging. My bad.
I wouldn’t have known you flagged me if you hadn’t said anything. And even if I could tell somehow, I wouldn’t be bothered.
I feel like my Game Grumps/Spiderman meme went over some heads here.
Those are the guys who pretend to be bad at Sonic games for views and helped along the “Sonic games suck and that’s why we like them” sentiment, right?
Arin pretends nothing.
Arin has difficulty concentrating on playing any and all games while also hosting a show, and this results in sloppy but also funny gameplay.
He also is critical of things he likes, so as a major fan of Sonic, he complains loudly and often about sonic games. However, he mostly complains about the badly made ones – Sonic Boom in particular, but most of the 3d Sonic games since they’re all at least somewhat awful.
Whelp…still don’t really know if this is flirting or not. Like yes, this is a violent confrontation but you’d be surprised how often they went there.
This feels a lot more hateful than any previous confrontations, so I’m gonna put in a vote for “not fliriting”
One of my pet hates is the expectation that two characters who openly hate each other are clearly meant to be, with people getting kicking-and-screaming outraged when they don’t hook up, so it was weirdly cathartic to see the almost kiss in panel 2 descend into violence immediately.
This. It’s especially unpleasant when violence is cheered on as foreplay.
And when it happens its cheerABLE, aka doesnt look like flaming garbage every single time, the way it IS, and is supposed to look without heavy set up and prior consent… even then, not the healthiest desire. Nothing to be normalized, displayed, or to be proud of. At best that’s transgression-centric fetish and at worst it is just literal assault and abuse.
I always liked Ruth for other reasons, mental health and meds and alcoholism struggles, and never really liked Jennifer.
I think violence can be foreplay but like a flirtatious sword duel or a flirtatious hand to hand fight. Like I think Enemies to Lovers only really works if there’s an in between step where they are both still fighting because they’re expected to but they don’t actually hate each other anymore and they’re obviously attracted to each other and clearly care about each other even in a weird way
Those examples of violence made a new connection in my brain – now I did fencing in college with the “violence club” and Mr. Miyagi was teaching Daniel “Miyagi-do violence”.
This is a bit of different scenario since the two don’t openly hate each other and had a history during their relationship of using fighting as foreplay – consensually except for the pre-relationship stuff.
Jennifer’s letting her anger out here, but it at least wasn’t open before this. She might think Ruth is lying about being concerned about her, but again it’s certainly clear that Ruth wasn’t openly hating her.
Remember, Jennifer is previously on record as firmly believing that your ex should be Your Enemy.
imagine being a freshman and seeing this for the first time, and then another person like “don’t worry you’ll get used to this it happens every other week”
or entering the college hearing of these ‘legendary’ dramas and the dorms being fairly uneventful
Aren’t most of them freshmen though? They’ve all only been there a couple months.
This feels like Jennifer saying “I deserve to be yelled at for what I did”, like she needs it to really get over this whole thing.
Honestly I think it’s sort of flirting. This is their idea of flirting, with how messed up their dynamic is.
The thing that drew them to each other and that sparks the most intense feelings of attachment is the idea that they are both “poison”, but they “can touch each other”–that is, they can feel free to let loose their worst impulses and lay bare the deep vulnerable parts of themselves they’re most ashamed of, without judgement or it damaging the other person or their relationship.
So to them, duking it out and being viscous at one another is an intense form of vulnerability that they can’t seem to reach with anyone else, and it reignites the spark that fueled their desire to be together in the first place.
Both Ruth and Billie are intensely sensitive to the perceptions and judgements of others, and so the rare experience of not having to feel on guard in that way around someone feels very special, like something they want to cling to. And the lack of judgement makes it feel to them like there are no lasting consequences for enabling each other’s worst impulses.
But the truth of the matter is, despite how it feels, there are negative consequences. For themselves and for each other. Their partner is not actually immune to toxicity just because they themselves are toxic, though they’re more accepting and understanding about it than others might be.
So long as they each (deep down) believe that the shameful parts of themselves are immutable and unchangeable, so long as they fail to address their insecurities and instead bury them down, they’ll remain vulnerable to that intoxicating pull of validation from each other.
Basically, Jennifer’s outburst here is being caused by recent events triggering her insecurities and fears about herself–the fear that there are things deeply wrong with her that she can’t change, no matter how hard she tries. And Ruth is the person she instinctively goes to to work through those sorts of feelings.
“Stop lying!” means “Stop hiding the anger and resentment and frustration. I don’t want to hold them in any more. Be vulnerable with me, so I can feel free to let this out. Please.”
And that’s why they have that moment in panel 2.
Quite frankly this is deeply romantic in a super fucked up way and I’m so into it.
Thanks for writing this, it really helps me understand what’s going on!
At last, a battle! Someone, where’s the Street Fighter music?
were you reading my mind just now?!??!
Not intentionally, but stranger things have happened before.
Yeah, so excited for this Billie vs Ruth battle!!!! 🤘😆
Just which street fighter music did you have in mind BTW?
Not who you were talking to, but may I suggest “The Beep” from III?
Ken Stage SF2.
I happened to have “Les Bêtes” from Evangelion playing while reading. Different scale, but still.
Called it. Jennifer just wanted Ruth to be honest with her.
They are broken up. Billie doesn’t have the right to demand that anymore, she doesn’t deserve it. The whole point of breaking up is to disentangle from all the mutual demands and expectations and go your separate ways. All you are required to give your ex is the barest of politeness, with as little interaction as possible. Especially when someone is as violent and volatile as Jenifer, avoiding her entirely for a couple of years will keep everyone out of the hospital and the jail.
So true! Jennifer/Billie is just digging for drama right now, trying to recapture the old dopamine hit.
I agree, well put. Ruth seems to be doing her best to actually move on, and while that’s very much a work in progress, I believe that when she is polite or kind to Jennifer, she means it- or at least wants to, because she knows the way they were (separately and together) is unhealthy. I mean, I thought that’s what Jennifer was doing too, per what she said to Walky when we came back from the timeskip- and maybe she is, we just haven’t seen the therapy while we have seen her spending time with fake awful people like Raidah, so it’s harder to say. But this right here feels like Jennifer just rooting around trying to get that old familiar thing, without regard for whether or not that’s a good thing or whether or not Ruth wants to be involved in it.
Yeah– Jennifer’s behavior right now isn’t just because of Ruth. It’s the way Joyce was insensitive, the way Sarah was judgemental and shaming her, it was Walky needling her and being a jerk, it was Mary being horrible on purpose to rile her up (to manipulate her into getting into trouble of course), and it’s Raidah being fake-nice all the time in ways that she’s probably picking up on only subconsciously as of yet.
Yuuup. Ruth isn’t close to Jennifer’s biggest annoyance right now, but Ruth is the most persistent background sting. Plus Ruth is the person most likely around to actually hit her back.
I think that is a weirdly binary view of relationships.
I think it’s more than that.
Maybe.
Or maybe she wants Ruth to feel what Jennifer thinks she should feel. Not so much honesty as matching her expectations.
Were people reading Ruth as not being honest? Cause I genuinely thought that Ruth was being caring because she still loves Jennifer
When she yelled down the hall about how much she’d moved on that seemed distinctly dishonest.
Still my OTP.
Ayup.
That and Garbageskowl.
Which one is Garbageskowl, again?
Walky x Amber
Garbageskowl? I thought it was Garbage Roof. Who’s the leading authority on ship names anyway?
Garbage Roof is a location.
Garbage Scow is an actual type of boat.
Scowling is what happens on Garbage Roof. Also kissing.
Not sure how the K got involved – wasn’t my call.
I’m guessing it’s also Cowl for Amber’s alter ego?
That being said, still no K involved
The K was because of Xtreme Kool Letterz.
I love how she’s still just got that mad face as she’s getting slammed with the force of a meteor strike .
Yeah! You could just feel her fighter energy in that frame! 🤘😆🤘
*FINISH HER*
I commented on those teeth last night but it vanished into the ether.
Oh dear, these two are gonna destroy the dorm!
…..Ah, I see. That’s just a regular Wednesday.
Destroy the dorm? Not hardly. These two are powerful enough sure, but Jennifer could barely break a door with her strength. I doubt they could severly damage a dorm constructed with 21st century techniques. Maybe like a studio apartment though. I think they could decently wreck a studio apartment.
Read Hall wasn’t built in the 21st century, it was the 20th century. 😛
Back to that good, good shit.
Nice healthy relationship there
Yeah, that is straight-up concussion material right there. That’s the kind of fall you wind up in a CT scanner for, spending the next several months in a quiet, dark room, waiting for your head to stop hurting. Scary.
is it just me, or do Ruth or Jennifer seem like they would do freakishly well in something like WWE?
’cause both of them seem like the kind of person who could really take a hit! 😮
Hey, I mean, Amber’s got roller derby to channel her destructive urges, so why not wrestling for both/either of these two? I imagine that the dorm maintenance person would appreciate that, if no one else.
Shhhhh it’s a comic with a superhero…. Let us have our cinematic Hollywood violence without consequences.
Hey that’s an interesting career choice for the ex-couple — being professional stunt-doubles for actresses in movies!!! 😃
…or roller derby!
I really really Ruth kicks her ass. Just absolutely humiliates her. You talked to Joyce, Jennifer, you should have fucked off then, not pick a fight with your ex because you’re garbage.
Come on Ruth, Jennifer’s lost enough brain cells to alcohol over the years, she doesn’t need a concussion.
PS.
The glasses flying off, the parallel to their first kiss in panel 2 the subversion in panel 3, all beautiful.
My thoughts exactly, re: a concussionworthy slam. Seriously, though, after a fall like that onto a hard floor with no tuck or roll, most folks would need to go to the hospital.
…I wonder where Ruth learned to streetfight? We know her grandfather roughs up her little brother, at least. Was there something else going on that taught her the necessity of fight training?
Hockey, probably
Speaking from experience, this.
At this point I don’t know who broke up with who or if it was a mutual separation but whoever of them did pull the trigger on that. Yeah that was a good call probably.
Sigh, Jennifer is really trying hard to be in the ‘in group’ over in the other dorm, but clearly she’s still holding in a lot of aggression.
Wonder if Asher will end up seeing the bruises or if Jennifer will be using makeup for that….
Well, Ruth is more or less always down for a scruff up, which isn’t necessarily good for an RA… wonder if the Sir (i absolutely forget the bloke’s name) is here or if he has yet to come back over. And if he decided to commit to Ruth and if this ends up ending in trainwreck sexy if Ruth can forgive herself….
Woo Leslieeee, noicy noice works great for meee
This comment is throwing me for a loop, because for the life of me I’m certain you must mean Jason (Ruth’s new boyfriend) when you say “the Sir” and “the bloke”, but “Sir” is how Ruth addresses her very abusive grandfather so there is a sufficient amount of ambiguity that I’m really scratching my head here.
Jason, yup! Refreshed my memory lower down in the comments.
Frankly it’s not something I call anyone who’s not polite? Hasn’t earned it? Used to be the rank for a butcher in mail, but more recently the ignoble nobility-at-heart appointed by the monarchs, of which there are very few known now. Then just general politeness term other than Mr.. I’m just an English enthusiast not deep into DoA lore. Yikes did I not mean that…
And its a bit concerning if you immediately hear “sir” and go “things abusive peeps make peeps call them” generally or specifically, I get it but unless you carry that for yourself you may be too invested in this parasocial relationship with the DoA cast…
But then again I can’t say I don’t heavily relate to Ruth’s struggle with psyche/anti-depressant meds and potentially finding very bad interractions with drugs including alcohol.
Also the alcoholism. But yeah yikes I didn’t remember that at all.
“And its a bit concerning if you immediately hear “sir” and go “things abusive peeps make peeps call them” generally or specifically, I get it but unless you carry that for yourself you may be too invested in this parasocial relationship with the DoA cast… ”
uh..
buddy, the only character in this comic who is refered to as “sir” is Ruth’s abusive grampa. It is far more likely to be what everyone reading your comment is gonna think about.
I thought the “sir” thing was a distancing. That she had to call him some address of respect, but wasn’t willing to use the familial ones.
My assumption was that he demanded she call him “sir.”
Wtf are you talking about, “parasocial relationships”?
It’s the relationships parasols have with each other.
at least, that’s the umbrella term for it.
Well yeah, naturally. I’m just not sure what shady little umbrellies have to do with the broader topic.
We always carry umbrellas when we’re abroad.
Actually, looking at the page, I couldn’t figure out what the broader topic even was.
It would really only be concerning if that carried outside the context of the comic, as opposed to in this comment section, in which we are talking about the comment and you using it in the same reference manner as the one character in the comic that seems to insist on that being his form of address (and whose real name I think we only know because of the tags).
If you’re an English enthusiast you should be aware that context matters in language, and we’re operating in a context very specific to the source material here. Maybe you shouldn’t be so critical and/or judgmental about terms carrying meaning in reference to a source material you yourself admit not to be deep in.
Maybe chill out a little on the “concern” about how other people here interpret your words and be more willing to clarify if misunderstood, is basically what I’m saying.
…staaaaarting to think this ship might be perma-sunk.
It’s settled low and is currently crumbling into scale.
Probably not coming back up without a miracle
You mean like aggression and sexual attractio being linked for both of them?
The Mary Ellen Carter this ain’t.
I mean, this is basically how they were before they started dating.
Now it’s an artificial reef, home to some of those deep-sea fangly fish with mouths full of sharp teeth and venom.
It pretty much started off with them fighting similar to this though, so you never know.
There’s the Ruthless we know and love.
Hate fucking in tminus 10
What is Jason doing? He’s inside the room, right?
He’s not a live-in BF no.
He stayed for a day or two to chill her out. He probably does still have shifts at the bar to cover though.
okay but last time we saw him was like a minute ago and he was inside the room
I’m calling even odds on whether anything actually happens…
But if it does, either Jason is getting tossed out of the room, or he will be crushed beneath them. One or the other – there is no middle ground.
Or crushed in between.
I hope this doesn’t lead to death by snu-snu.
I mean, if Jason’s gotta go, then that’s the way to go.
Ah right, ten days ago by the tags. Just before the ‘Get me Billie’ conversation, so literally no more than half an hour ago. Ruth: Can I bully you, Jason: (paraphrasing) Oh, do I have a choice?
It’s certainly not guaranteed he’d have stuck around for that, even if he seems self destructive and self sabotaging at times. He doesn’t seem 100% on the masochist thing, maybe 50% at best. Put up with it if there’ll be good stuff later.
The timeframes of this comic mess with me sometimes.
So, something like this?
https://pixietrixcomix.com/menage-a-3/goodie-goodie-facade
(this particular strip isn’t that nsfw, but be aware that the overall series is lol, idk how much of an overlap of ma3 fans there are here compared to ppl who read QC b/c willis and jeph jacques are friends)
Thanks for the link, gave me a giggle. I’ve been aware of ma3 for a while, but never got round to trying it properly.
Ah. Ma3. I remember that one.
Good premise, but the characters didn’t grab me. **shrug**
FAAAAAAAACE.
not to like enjoy violence commited by someone in a position of authority over another person, but i have missed ruthless.
Ruth isn’t her RA any more, she’s in the clear!
And the violence is a healthier reaction than being seduced.
Also, this is just retaliatory violence! It’s a huge step for Ruth! The RM will probably give her a medal!
I can’t watch
Where is Jason now? Someone needs to be the voice of sanity here and he’s probably right there in Ruth’s room. Does bartender training come with crowd control and bouncer training? He can call security … that would get Ruth in trouble. Does he call Becky? I’m rooting for him to step up and be very polite and firmly British here to save the day, but I’m afraid he’s gong to be doing an Arthur Dent just wringing his hands and saying, “oh dear, oh dear.”
Oh, like Jason has any hope of breaking up a fight between these two. What we need is someone on the AmbG/Sal tier.
Jason is a bartender now, and breaking up fights is a common part of the job description
Yeah, but I doubt it’s Jason who’s doing that.
Also, a little doubtful that Galasso’s even has that many bar fights to being with.
I’d guess that Galasso would see any fight in his establishment (Or attempt to break up a fight by someone else) as an affront to his authority and thus he’d get into it himself.
NOBODY BEATS FACE AT GALASSO’S EXCEPT GALASSO
I can.
**grabs a bag of rice crisps, a cold bottle of water, and my vibrator**
Uh, those rice crisps don’t have any powder on them, do they? 😮
I don’t think they’re real rice crisps.
Actually, they are.
I can’t eat popcorn due to digestive issues, so I buy rice crisps to simulate the experience.
However, the implied joke was meant to be that I would need either the rice crisps or the vibrator, depending on the outcome of the scene, not both at once. The water bottle, however, paired with both salty snack or rehydration.
And now the joke is the meta of me explaining the joke.
Well, now I know two of the objects were meant to be separate. That doesn’t explain the powder though.
I believer Wellerman is referring to the flavor powder often used on such snacks.
I generally prefer the caramel flavored ones, which don’t use powder, so no. However, we do also have cheese flavored ones, which do, so I understand the concern.
Such a healthy couple.
So for those shipping these two… should probably stop. The ship has sunk or should sink and never be salvaged.
Nope. I’ll never stop shipping them.
I’m with BarerMender on this one.
Agree to disagree UrsulaDavina.
Maybe I like my ships totally fucked up to the core. That’s what makes them interesting. That’s what gives them potential for conflict and growth and makes stories about them tense and engaging.
Them having broken up and it causing even more tension like this just makes me ship it harder, and you can’t stop me. Because you see, they are not real people, and no real person is harmed by two fictional characters kissing when they probably shouldn’t, and I am not morally obligated to only find unproblematic dynamics in fiction personally compelling!
Damned right.
“I am not morally obligated to only find unproblematic dynamics in fiction personally compelling’
Fuck yeah, say it louder.
Kind of the point of fiction in the first place.
Fuckin’ A. I like my unproblematic ships too but I also sometimes like the fucked up but interesting ones.
ALL ABOARD THE S.S. DISASTER TRAINWRECK TOOT TOOT, I WILL BE YOUR BOATSWAIN
And I shall be your Coxswain!
… you know why. **wink**
Why you trying to be the moral ship police???
ACAB, even with shipping.
I wish I’d seen this comment earlier. I would have posted a particularly dirty string of letters in response.
What’s stopping ya
that’s hard since the name of the chapter is “Don’t Stop Billie-ving”
To be fair.
This is kinda how their relationship started too.
IT’S FEMUR RIPPING TIME!
She got what she wanted, good times all around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CgebqFa7og
(Whose Line Is It Anyway? clip)
First the feels come, very sad. Anger it becomes, hmmm. Of the Dork side this is. Very powerful force, Rage Boner is. Dangerous to boyfriends this is.
“Hate me like I hate myself”?
Ohhhh…..kaaaaayyyy
Time for “Epic Hate-fuck 2.0”
I think that you hit the nail in the head
I see what you did there.
I…guess it’s a good way to stay in shape if fighting is an aphrodisiac/being in a Fight Club*/Hookup type group
*I’ve never seen the movie (i know ppl say ‘it’s a classic’ but i don’t really watch enough movies to really appreciate all the ‘classics’ out there lol)
I read the book, but it immediately vanished from my head.
The other day I was looking through old strips and comics, and I realized that I’ve been reading this comic since 2014. Wow. I got caught up, or at least started commenting, just a few days before Becky appeared at IU. It’s wild to think that it has been that long and to think about how things have changed.
Gunnerkrigg Court was the first webcomic I ever really got into, and I’ve been reading that since maybe 2009. And I know there are people–including people here!– who have been with ongoing webcomics longer. It’s such an interesting form of media, in part because of the regularity of it. Like, I have thought about Dumbing of Age at least once almost every day for almost eight years. Wild.
I’ve been reading Willis’ comics every evening since about 2003 or so. Literally my entire adult life so far. The passage of time is wild!
Wow, that must have been a strange transformation to see in real time!
Honestly, you don’t notice it since the changes are so gradual until you look back at old strips and go
“Huh, the arts seriously improved wowie”
not just the art of course but thats the most noticeable from just a quick glance at the first and current strips.
Same, been reading since I was in 6th grade, so that should be 2004.
It’s really interesting being a minor in spaces where you’re not the target audience like that. I remember reading a piece of serial fiction that had regular NSFW content from when I was maybe fifteen. I engaged in the comics but didn’t mention my age until I was in college. And, in addition to the community/author aspect, there’s the experience of “I was younger than these characters when I started on this and now I am older.”
Willis being a pioneer in webcomics means I’ve been reading his work for roughly 15 years and I am not remotely close to being one of his longest fans. His consistency in (ever growing) quality and output over decades is impressive.
For me, it was Quiltbag.
When the creator of that ended it, they said something akin to ‘go read Dumbing of Age – it’s basically the same idea, but done better’.
I was sad, but I was like, okay, I’ll check it out – and I did. And I’ve been here ever since.
Yeah, for me it was NerfNow, a gaming webcomic.
Out of curiosity I explored other webcomics in the Hiveworks portal, and started reading DOA in 2018, and since then I have come to love this comic and its community. 🥰
I was here when it was just Shortpacked (I remember spending most of a week reading through Roomies and It’s Walky to catch up) and when DoA started I was there pretty much day one. Wild to think it was so long ago.
I remember reading a lot of sprite comics back in the day. I can’t remember what comic I found first but I recall Girlyyy being one of the first followed by DoA. Probably about 2011/2012. Then I caught up on shortpacked. And then Roomies/Walky a few years afterwards.
I remember crying in the shower after Robin and Leslie broke up haha.
No kidding, this comic has a way of bringing the waterworks. 😭
Order of the Stick was my gateway webcomic back in 2012, but I’ve never had that many comics I was following at any given time. I saw a lot of isolated strips from Dumbing of Age and Shortpacked! over the years (Mostly Dina comics) and was always vaguely aware of them, but I didn’t actually read through the full archives and start following daily updates until a couple of years ago.
My webcomics reading history is kinda spotty. I think the very first one I read was Bob and George, back when I was in middle school and was obsessed with Mega Man, although the comic was over by that point. I mostly remember reading sprite comics at around that time. In high school I binged El Goonish Shive and was following it actively for a while, but kinda lost track when it ran into some schedule slippage– I should really check back in on it. I can’t remember any other webcomics I read between then and getting into this one, shortly after the time skip, after which I binged Shortpacked! and then It’s Walky! et al.
Oh! I know what I forgot!
Brawl in the Family. Discovered it late summer 2014, just in time for an initial binge before the ending hit.
Penny Arcade and B^U were my first introduction to webcomics, back around 2003 or so. Soon after (2004 maybe?), I shifted from gaming comics to story-driven ones like Real Life. Questionable Content was the gateway drug to all the others that I still read to this day, since Jeph had (and still has) that mile-long list of links to other comics next to his own.
I started reading Shortpacked! a couple years later, but didn’t dig deeper since the Walkyverse lore seemed so deep. (That waited until the “from the beginning, in best reading order” reruns started.) I’ve been reading DoA since the beginning, though.
oh no am I old 😮
I’m older. :p
PA and RL and MegaTokyo, and I wandered over here sometime around “It’s the rain” and stuck around. Got to see IW! end (with drama) and SP! start (with silliness like that first Unicron strip… and later more drama).
I really got into webcomics with Lapin and Bigger than Cheese, I can’t remember exactly when. Lapin begun in 2001 and was already pretty advanced when I read it. I also already had read some french-speaking strips made for internet prior to 1999, and read several french speaking slice-of-life comics blogs (a special style you can still find with Boulet but was really widely done then, around 2003 I’d say since I read the beginning of Cha, Laurel, Lilitualski, kek) irregularily.
But I don’t really get that “I’m older than them now” vibe from webcomics – much more by novels I used to read and re-read…
I had seen scattered references/ads about DOA around the start of 2020 and someone mentioned it was set at IU. I was intrigued since my oldest son graduated from IU. Plus the lockdown had started so I had plenty of time. It came as a surprise when the first online strip I read was a flashback of Amazing Girl driving a critically injured Mike to the ER. Not what I expected. Also, I was intrigued by the long history of the various versions of the strip, and I sure had plenty of time to do a deep dive into the archives.
I still miss the sci-fi silliness a bit.
Not actually sure what my first webcomic was. User Friendly is one of the first I remember. It was the Fans crossover that led me to It’s Walky!, iirc.
I cannot remember the first webcomics I read, it was early in the internet era, so around late 1990s-early 2000s. It didn’t occur to me to save the bookmarks, so I would find one, then eventually forget where I found it. I also lost many in a computer crash in the mid 2000s that wiped out my bookmarks. One of the earliest ones I can remember was a British one, it would post scans of old magazine comics from the 50s and 60s, and make up new texts for them. Then the comments section would compete to come up with something better, it was great fun. I never did manage to rediscover that one. Also remember User Friendly, was the first Canadian one I found. Other early ones were Sabrina, mostly due to the Amiga stuff, Melonpool, Penny Arcade, PVP and Order of the Stick. Then there were ones like Megatokyo, which I found, lost and later rediscovered. I quickly found a few comic hosting sites, like The Duck and Keenspot, and eventually found Queen of Wands, which I discovered just before it finished, which led me to Something Positive, Questionable Content, Girls with Slingshots, El Goonish Shive, etc. And of course Willis’s comic, I think I discovered it somewhere in the late part of It’s Walky, or early part of Shortpacked!, likely mid 2000s. Things then exploded from there. I currently have over 300 webcomics bookmarked and regularly read over 50.
“I currently have over 300 webcomics bookmarked and regularly read over 50.”
Wow, I only regularly read, like, five webcomics currently. Used to be more, but some ended or became sporadic in updates, and I didn’t really replace them.
COWABUNGA IT IS
Y’know the worst bit is, Ruth might legitimately be fond of Jennifer, be healthy enough now to express that normally, might WANT to be pleasant, and understands that the ‘Billie’ she loved wants and expects a certain thing from her. And Ruth just wants Jennifer to be satisfied, to close it, so is either reverting to her anger or summoning it on command, to please. Honestly hope its somehow other than that, but… sigh.
It’s obvious that Ruth and Jen agree whatever happened is Ruth’s fault or was an accident due to her being very stupid with things. I’m sensing an alcohol-interacting meds incident and or potentially… severe psychological… allergy, to boozy meds. So… well honestly hope they stay faithful but ‘suicide pact alcoholic fuck buddies’ was never once remotely healthy. So they might not value themselves enough to stop it.
Mmm… Iiiiiii… hope someone pokes their head in so these two knuckleheads can be shamed into behaving….
I read it as Ruth refusing to have romantic feelings for her and over correcting. I mean, punching Jennifer is definitely better than kissing her.
Mm not really matter of romantic feelings but romantic action, there’s every indication that Ruth isn’t entirely over Jennifer. Jen’s pissed at whatever happened on Halloween tho and at least by now Ruth respects that. Its very clear that both agree Ruth Was Stupid. Its more likely “Don’t want to make her cheat” than “don’t want her at all.”
Eh, honestly I see it more as, well the last thing we ses Ruth tell Jason is thar she wants to bully him, which may or may not have caused Jason to leave? Here’s a volunteer now, either way.
That was how I was hoping THIS page would go. “You’re lying! [incl about other partner] and Billie kicked in the door to see Ruth and Jason’s consensual power exchange.
Ruth is trying to remain cordial. Problem is, Jennifer is the type who thrives on drama.
Maybe I’m reading panel 2 wrong, but I don’t think Ruth was pretending.
“Fully deserved.” ~Minimus Ambus
This is just physical damage. I think Ruth’s about to launch an emotional tirade that will deal ten times that amount in psychic damage.
assuming this eventually gets an ending/epilogue, wonder how many ppl will be left standing without some kinda physical/emotional scars after graduation lol
Yeah, I think the end of this storyline is gonna be Ruth telling Jennifer to grow the fuck up.
Was Jennifer moving in closer to try to kiss Ruth (or to get Ruth to kiss her) in the second panel? If so, I am glad Ruth rejected that (though not the physical violence part).
I see it almost as Jennifer begging, saying, “Please meet my aggression, I need this”.
Seconded.
Well Jennifer, she stopped playing nice. Happy now?
Emotional (and brain) damage
Oh good they’re fighting again
presidential alert
What
Holy shit, Billie/Jennifer has been caught red-handed by Ruth!
Is anyone else a bit confused about how to feel about this considering we still don’t know what happened in the timeskip?
Very. I hope we get some answers soon.
Really a lot.
Right in the face!!!
Do we still not know what the hell happened between them? Like I know they’ve both got issues but Jennifer came in acting like a fucking lunatic and I can’t even begin to guess what Ruth might have done that’s left her in a violent rage for months.
It sounds like we’ll find out in the next chapter.
Good thing that Ruth refused to let Jennifer/Billie’s face get closer and closer to hers. Good thing that, despite all of her “I’m sorry for”, she actually seems to know very well that between them can’t continue anything because that hurts both of them. I hope it doesn’t escalate into even more violence, but Jennifer looks desperate and she could wants continue. I wonder if Mary is seeing all this, if Carla hears them from her room and if Jason is in Ruth’s room.
Well wish granted.
i read this in Shenron’s voice 😆
…now kiss!
*WUMP!*
…or that. 😛
Or she was being nice because she’s trying to be a better person, and trying to get over her ex in a healthy manner and NOT wish for their death, because that’s not a good thing.
Not everyone changes so quickly there, Jennifer… no matter how much you insist you have.
AS GAWD IS MY WITNESS, THAT BILLINGSWORTH IS BROKEN IN HALF
Just read another comic having a pro-wrestling arc, and I found this comment to be funny, and also equally applicable to both comics (except that one doesn’t have a “Billingsworth” character).
Wish granted!
Attagirl, Ruth. Don’t let her walk all over you.
I’m glad to see how much these two are over each other.
Yes, it’s so refreshing.
Well then
Guess Jennifer put the Less back in Ruthless!
…Wait no that joke doesn’t work
fuck yeah paste her
I love Ruth and Billie, but Ruth and Dina would be unbelievably hot.
Is- is this better? like I actually can’t tell if this is better than them antagonizing each other and then making out??? I hope Jennifer/Billies head/neck is alright.
Hope the glasses didn’t break
“STOP PRETENDING TO BE NICE TO ME!”
Okay, Cool.
*FACE SLAM!*
oh damn she literally asked for this asswhooping
I wonder if this is all just a ploy to get Ruth to beat up Mary.
Mary will definitely snark and say its staged for her.
Then sn
WISH GRANTED!
BY GOD IT’S RUTH LESSICK
WITH A STEEL CHAIR
OH GOD. THE FEMUR DEATH STRIKE! THE FEMUR DEATH STRIKE!
In a normal school, Billie/Jennifer -who just physically assaulted an employee of the college and fellow student without apparent provocation- would at best be placed on academic suspension while the school investigates. And at worst be completely expelled.
But remember, her parents are rich.
/s
I’m not sure you understand how /s works..
That, or your conception of real life is tragically optimistic.
You’re right, it should’ve been “/[eyeroll, midair wanking motion]” instead.
Sorry, you said “midair wanking” and my brain immediately went to “wanking while skydiving” and now I’m sorta worried about the implications of that.
What implications? Without doing any research at all, we both know it’s a thing.
By those standards, Ruth would have been gone long ago.
Even in a “normal school”, fights happen. They need to get reported for anyone to get expelled.
No one’s going to report this.
NOT THE GLASSES
I’m not saying it’s healthy, but this is historically how they have flirted.
I’m sure it wasn’t Willis’ intent, but there is more than just a trace of Moe Howard in Ruth’s face and pose in the third frame.
“Why, you numbskull…”
it was about time that Ruth did have enough of Jennifer’s selfrightous bullying of her.
Ruth did leave her alone while Jennifer didn’t.
Alright, I guess it’s my turn to stop reading the comments for a stroy arc so I can avoid all the “these two are superviolent with each other, clearly they’re in love and should make out” fuckshits.
I mean
They were in love, and did make out, and the superviolence was part of how they got together, because they’re an incredibly fucked up pair of idiots
But they genuinely loved each other, also, and a lot of
people“fuckshits” really liked that relationship???so it’s, uh, this is a weird sentiment to have about this
I get that Willis used a common enemies-to-lovers trope for these characters, but this relationship was built on emotional abuse and physical assault, and it eventually led to an alcoholism-fueled suicide pact. I don’t think it’s weird to be grossed out about people romanticizing that.
More like it started with an alcoholism-fueled suicide pact and grew into something more. Both Jennifer and Ruth supported each other, in their own messed up ways. Their relationship helped them both stop drinking and seek therapy. Both of them were better people and in a better place at the end of the first season than at the start and their relationship was a good part of that process.
Also it was left in a good place before the time skip and we don’t yet have closure on how it ended or why neither of them seem to be in good shape now.
The physical fighting specifically was also a consensual part of the relationship for both of them – once it actually was a relationship. It was a turn on for both of them. It’s possible that the people romanticizing them are remembering that part of the pairing more than the early abuse.
“Hey I’m following your lead, but your lead is kind of doing it for me.”
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/lead-2/
I think a lot (most?) of the readers cheering this ship on are fully aware that if these were real people this would be Extremely Bad News. DoA has some sweet and healthy relationships with open communication and respect for boundaries. Then it also has this extremely entertaining absolute shitshow
Hey this just in but enjoying a story about messed up fictional people and the complex emotions that dynamic inspires is not the same thing as whatever you think “romanticizing” is. In fact, I like it more than things that are good and clean and unproblematic, because stories and dynamics like this give us the opportunity to explore all of the many complicated and messed up emotions in ourselves…in a safe way. Through fiction, rather than with actual real people.
For example: If Ruth and Jennifer were real, it would be much healthier for both them both to just read or even write romance novels or fanfic or whatever about enemies to lovers to work or similar dynamics through their complex feelings for each other, rather than to actually engage in their mutually toxic relationship.
But this is a story, and stories don’t always need to be concerned with what’s healthy. They ought to be about what’s most interesting. Sometimes, people slowly finding real stability and safety and growing to be more healthy people is more interesting. Sometimes it’s not. And sometimes, in order to reach that place of stability, it involves trudging through the mud and confronting ugly things in ugly ways that aren’t ideal or nice.
Plenty of the readers in the fanbase romanticize Billie/Ruth and have for a long time. People still comment about how they want them to get back together and enjoyed them as a couple.
Ruth verbally abused Billie, stole from her, physically fought her, and sexually assaulted her, all while in a position of authority over her. Billie entered a relationship with her abuser that spiraled into a suicide pact.
Now that’s certainly an interesting relationship and story arc, but can you blame anyone who is uncomfortable with readers glorifying that relationship? Seems understandable to me.
We all know they’re not real. I think it’s a little rude to call people “fuckshits” for liking when the pretend girls don’t actually hurt each other IRL, with the implication that we’d also be fine with their behavior if it were real. It’s actually fine and not a problem to enjoy these two and I don’t like the idea that it shouldn’t be.
I’ve never visited this campus, but I know that buildings of a certain vintage have poured concrete floors. For the hallway to fill with a “Wump” sounds that loud, that had to be one hell of an impact.
Enjoy your head fracture, Jennifer. You earned it.
“Okaaayyyy” 🙂
Two minutes for roughing
Is it just me, or is Billie’s expression in the second frame… pain? Is that what Ruth sees?
Oh it’s mutual pain, you aren’t imagining shit
This is that Love + Hate sauce, like, this is Anakin vs. Obi-Wan shit, to use a crude nerd comparison, except these two were (canonically) in love and made out
In the third frame, and I don’t know it it’s intentional, or, again, just me, but if you scroll sideways to cover the down-turned corner of Ruth’s mouth, she has an evil grin.
And in the second frame, Ruth’s expression isn’t pain; it’s “wild surmise.”
You’re telling me Anakin and Obi-Wan never made out?????
Look, I said *canonically* 😛
That’s so not carpeted. Ooh that’s gonna leave a mark.
It’s carpeted, but it’s that thin hallway carpet.
Aww they’re flirting
I hope
These are the wages of sin. Not death but a concussion.
Gee, I can’t even begin to imagine why these two crazy kids ever broke up.
“But I do miss you. Every time. Friggin’ blow darts just won’t fly straight.”
Foreplay.
Is Jennifer a masochrist?
At this point, every explanation is possible.
Quick Booster come in to tell us what this means. Asides from Willis ran out of bad guys to punch.
Booster would be delighted.
get dunked on
I mean okay I would also shove someone shoving there arm to my neck.
Guess Ruth is just as done now.
This is a good ol’ mix of Ruth enacting self defense, but technically excessive force. I hope she doesn’t get too fucked over by this, because she’s clearly not the aggressor in this.
I don’t think this is gonna include a “Ruth faces consequences from authority” plot point.
I’m inclined to agree. A lot of scuffles like this, even really violent ones, just don’t get reported to authorities of any sort, because people mind their own business. At this point, I figure the girls in this hallway are used to these two going at it, so it’s barely a disruption, and it seems to have lasted all of about 30 seconds. Really no need to get any trouble-dispensers involved.
Me: Eggman meme: what are you two FUCKING talking about?
(Here’s to Halloween flashbacks of their breakup I guess).
Ruth fucked Jennifer’s wife?
Okay, but imagine if Ruth hooked up with Alice. That’d be some fun fallout.
I just found this comic four days ago and burned through the whole thing up to now and I have to say…it’s fantastic. If you want to know the artist, study the art. It saddens me that David is clearly the sort of man I’d be great friends with but will probably never get to meet, simply because the popularity of this comic inundates him with a million other people who I’m sure feel the same.
So… Thank you for making this David. Many of the topics you cover here hit close to home. I understand that by making this you’ve put your thoughts and values and history out there for the scrutiny of strangers. That takes courage. And strangers can often be unkind. But you’ve humanized *many* more people that you will probably never meet. Including me. And that means something.
Quite a binge, isn’t it? Welcome to the comic. Maybe one day the world will be less covered in death and their kids will be a little older, and Willis will do conventions again and you’ll get to meet them.
(Also, I don’t know if being referred to as a man bothers them, but my understanding is that Willis is nonbinary; they use he/they pronouns, so you’re fine on that front.)
You are not alone in how you feel about the comic. 🥲
Also, welcome to the comments section! 😊
We’re a diverse community that just likes screwing around, discussing important things, and just having lots of fun!!!!
Also great music!!!!
*plays “Mitsuha No Tsugaku” on hacked muzak*
Jennifer picked a bad time to start a fight, seeing as Ruth was already looking for someone to bully.
Billie girl got a severe case of the crappy frown after getting bonked against the floor by her fellow favorite redhead canuck!
Ruth says she misses me.
BUT HER AIM IS GETTING BETTER.
https://imgur.com/a/reqHS7d
Is Ruth wearing a skirt jumper or shortalls?
I think it’s an overall dress/shorts.
Gotta love Jennifer doing her absolute best to fuck up the progress both of them have been making.
Hahaha Jennifer this is some serious PROJECTING