Don’t remind me of my sorrow. The only balm to soothe me was pintsize, and he has metamorphosed and watered down too. Alas even sweet-tits is absent. So I lament,
He stopped years ago. Frankly I don’t agree with that decision. It’s about when I started losing interest in QC in general. Yay was an interesting addition, but then they got neutered from their mysterious, amoral activities into just another Flanderized character. At this point, May is the only reason I still read it, and if she gets a personality makeover, I’m done with the comic.
She’s snapped so she’ll probably suck a billion dicks soon enough, and she doesn’t believe in things that you don’t even have to wrap in a joke to sound dumb.
Yes, she’s supposed to keep all of this violent change in her belief structure inside until she’s ready to be polite about it and not hurt anybody’s feelings with sharp words.
Joyce is now very clear she doesn’t respect her best friend and thinks she’s a moron. You can be angry all you want but if that’s your starting position, you are in fact not her friend anymore.
I’ve only played the original version, not Rebirth, but it seems to be the same story, so I’ll try:
It’s called the Binding of Isaac in reference to the biblical story about God daring Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac and then, after Isaac’s tied up on the altar, essentially says, “Nah, it’s cool, bro. Ta anyway.”
In the game, Isaac’s mom doesn’t get the latter message (though a bible does fall on her head in one of the endings).
It does have a number of other religious references, including occasional trades with devils, but at no point does it seem to actually overtly oppose religion. At least unless the mother’s assumed to be maybe delusional (seemed strongly implied) rather than following divine commands, I’d think it’s decidedly blasphemous than something like Bayonetta, which involves actually killing angels.
It takes more of a stand against the televangelist style of Christianity if you read into some of the symbolism with one of the bosses in the newest dlc being a manifestation of the televangelist broadcasts that brainwashed Isaac’s mother
Then…. Why aren’t you angry at Becky? Why aren’t you angry at Dotty? They both used their feelings about Joyce and DIRECTLY hurt her. Intentionally used words meant to hurt her. To her face. What is this… 2 ways thing going on here? Joyce ‘thought’ she was saying things in a private space. She gets to do that.
One of the things that scares me about this plotline is I don’t know if she does get to do that. This could be a super deep and intricate storyline plunging into the depths of why everyone thinks what they do, how the other characters being in their own ways not available for Joyce to talk to led her to isolating in her head until she was this dug in.
Instead of that, I’m worried this will just be the “Joyce Learns That Thinking Christians Are being Dumb Is Bad” storyline, that she’ll get the Karma Anvil, stop the Evil Thoughts, and then we all move on without addressing any of the other stuff.
I feel extremely confident we’re not in for the story of how Joyce learns not to be problematic, and it was these past two strips that clinched it for me.
‘Cause yeah when it was just Joyce vs. Becky you could read it as “Joyce is mean to her friend”, but with Sarah being, well, Sarah, that makes it more apparent to me that we’re going all in on the Feelmobile trip.
Joyce has been struggling with her faith for ten years of comics, ain’t no way that’s getting wrapped up in a neat bow where Joyce just learns she’s wrong and should shut up and accommodate her friends.
I am? Most everyone in this comic behaves in ways I consider very wrong a lot of the time. Joyce should never have spoken in that way, no matter who she thought was listening. Becky and Dorothy should have handled their responses much more gracefully as well.
I mean, yeah. You’re not allowed to lash out and hurt everyone around you just because you’re going through shit. An asshole with a reason is still an asshole.
At what point did Joyce intentionally try to hurt somebody? The only people that said something meant to hurt somebody on purpose here were Becky, Dotty and now Sarah.
Her feelings are valid, but her behavior is unacceptable.
This isnt a hard concept to grasp.
Also deciding the world is now ruined forever because there is no god and theres no point in trying to make it better is still allowing your religion/church/god to dictate what you do and how you act and treat others 🙂 I hope Joyce gets to that realization one day. Hopefully sooner than she went through this.
– say God is dumb because God was the fixture of your death cult upbringing and it’s all you’ve known
– be mad at your best friend after your first fight ever where both of you constantly talk past each other
– reaffirming confidence when your asshole roommate tells you that you should lose your job because of your hubris and so she can get off on it
Like, we’re seriously nailing Joyce this hard because she’s mean to Christianity? We’re so fucking worried about being polite we can’t even let a traumatized kid flip the bird at Jesus?
Why the fuck are so any of you worried about the moral purity of someone who doesn’t even exist?
The unacceptable bit is to assume everyone who believes in a god figure is “stupid” – this is as broad a generalization as “Anyone who doesn’t believe in god is a sinner/evil/trying to ruin the world”. How can you not see that her atheism is the same as her theism here? “If you’re not with me you’re against me” “Your viewpoint isn’t mine therefor its wrong” – all she has done has flipped which side of the coin she is on.
It’s also unacceptable to take your trauma out on your friends. Yes, she needs her friends right now but she is crossing multiple boundaries, and burning all her bridges through her BEHAVIOR, not her feelings.
It’s not she’s mean to Christianity, its that she is being mean to PEOPLE.
As for arguing about the moral purity of someone who doesn’t even exist, why do YOU care if we do that about someone who doesn’t exist? Yeesh. You seem to have a hard time with hypocrisy so I’ll end my responses here.
She gets to complain and say what she wants in private. Being overheard by her friend was not intentional. Her behavior isn’t even remotely atrocious, here. She was being kind when she tried to reassure her theist friend just a few days prior even though she doesn’t believe in that anymore.
I’ll have you know that having to do that is stressful. You basically have to deny your thoughts and feelings in order to make somebody feel better. Joyce has been trying and you all just… take it for granted.
You’re writing under the assumption I have never done that myself. I’ll be clear – I am at best agnostic, leaning atheist. I was raised Catholic. I am gay. You put the piece together.
Her complaints were not in private. Her complaints were in someone else’s room, with the door open. If she were complaining to just Sarah in their room, yeah maybe I’d be more sympathetic, but I don’t understand why we’re acting like she was in “private” – there were multiple people around her, several of whom warned her about her behavior before Becky and Dorothy even showed up.
Was she being kind? I don’t think Becky saw it as kindness, and Joyce herself seemed to do it more out of pity (“Aww, poor dumb Becky hasn’t figured out her mom is in the eternal void, I’ll humor her here”).
Joyce is lashing out like a wounded animal, and to a POINT it is understandable. But my specific issue is she has just flipped the script, but she is the exact same evangelical she was before – except now instead of trying to sing the praises of God she must ruin it for everyone. How many times she did try and get Dorothy to go to church? Or that her lack of religion was wrong? And now how many times has she tried to convince someone that it’s better to NOT believe in God? It’s like we’re seeing Joyce how she might have been pre-college really, but this time with the atheism flavor.
Well all that AND she’s being a big jerk about it, spouting all that “anyone who believes in a god is stupid” stuff. I need her to hurry up and learn the “faith and intelligence are not the same” lesson.
This was the reason why I’ve left so many atheism groups. The constant dumping on religious people regardless of how they actually treat people made a very toxic and not-fun environment.
Yeah, I mean the comments here weren’t ever “fun” but yeeessssh lately its just been a dumping ground of what I assume to be youngin’s trashing religion because they are falling for the same fallacies Joyce is.
You know, believing in God and choosing not to swear dont have to go together, right? I didn’t swear until well into my twentys by which time Id concluded the world was so fucked up why was I even trying any more.
ahhh, this reminds me when i was a 19 year old atheist. was kind of an asshole, just like joyce is being. hopefully she’ll turn a corner and start being her more optimistic cheerful self again
If she were being an asshole about it, she wouldn’t mind that she’s hurting people by saying things. She minds. I imagine that it’s hurting her that people are upset with her over it. It just… might not be time for her to stop venting and be quiet about the change going on inside her.
Instead of being judged and scolded she might need somebody with a little more maturity comforting her and nudging her into a more virtuous cycle.
READ, or UNDERSTAND?? That’s kind of the problem she’s in right now-she READ the bible, but she still doesn’t UNDERSTAND it-she’s realized what she was taught is bullshit, but only in that still-not-understanding way you get with true believers and recent converts, same way you see with people who READ Marx and Engels, but fail to UNDERSTAND what they’re reading (on both sides, no less, pro AND con.)
Isn’t that saying that every act of positivity done by a devout person is true to the bible, and anything to the contrary is against it?
What does it mean to fail to understand scripture where the stuff that goes “hey this happened” gets defied by continued understanding of the Earth, and everything else is up to interpretation?
Is it not being disloyal to the bible if you defy its conventions we’ve deemed socially incapable of existing in the modern day? How do we decide which parts are the morals and which are just the parables from which to draw morals?
listen, disagreeing with fundamentalists is easy. and they don’t care.
but regular christians interpret the scriptures. that there are righter and wronger ways of reading the bible is a very trivial fact to most christians, and they might either not care very much or, if they’re theologically minded, actually enjoy a good debate. believe it or not, they might even be open to having their mind changed about some things.
it’s completely puzzling to me that some atheists insist religious people are hypocritical for picking and choosing in the bible. it’s a text. of course you interpret it. some people refuse that ridiculously basic premise, but that doesn’t make all of the other believers fundamentalists by association.
Like you’re completely correct, there is no objective reading of a religious scripture and, inherently, it’s something down to interpretation.
Or to bring this back to DoA for a sec: Becky is completely right to shed parts of her literal reading of the bible whenever a fact contradicts it, because what really matters is her faith that God performs miracles in the name of his unending love for her.
What I was trying to convey is that, consequently, an immoral act committed by someone interpreting scripture is still a reading, even if it’s one that defies basic human rights and decency.
Like it’s less whether or not there’s a Good Reading that’s true to the bible, and more that they’re just Readings that can be Good and Bad.
If the bible is intended as a strict guideline for morals/beliefs/truths, then there is a Good Reading of the bible, and it’s within the parameters of what it asks of you. If you wear mixed fabrics, the bible is telling you that you’re doing it wrong.
But if it’s something up to interpretation, which I think that’s what it is, then those interpretations are drawn from the individual and they find meaning in those interpretations. From there, they can be good or bad because those interpretations coming from individuals means individuals can bend, or be bent, by the meaning of the words and beliefs they are interpreting.
every individual and church and sect reads the bible differently and so derives different religious ethics based on the same text? is that what you’re saying? that’s what i’m saying. do we agree? i am a bit tipsy truth be told, i might be getting this sideways again.
i don’t feel confident enough to say which readings of the bible are good and which are bad, as i understand it’s an entire scholarly discipline.
now, people acting like garbage and citing the bible as justification get zero patience out of me, it’s like… that’s just irrelevant. keep your religion out of it, is my hot take. i’m not gonna start debating the bible just because they decided that’s the conversation we need to be having now. if your political values suck, i don’t care where you got them, they just suck
You know… I mentioned a while back that I thought this was all about the difference between Joyce and Becky’s relationship to their faith. But Joyce going full anti-theist is kind of obnoxious and hard to watch. Every time this strip promises to be really good character drams, I always end up a little let down.
Well, the good news is that Joyce has only attacked religion with words. Religion has had the audacity to attack her with men wielding bats, guns, verbal abuse and nuns.
Joyce being angry and lashing out is something that young people do. I imagine her internal feelings are a giant, roiling ball of rage, hurt, betrayal and uncertainty.
So, there are worse things that she could be doing than calling Religion a giant poopy-face in what she considered a safe space.
People going after some atheists for criticizing religion never seem to care that religion has done far worse than just call things and people bad words.
Keulen, what you don’t seem to get, is that that’s how Religions treat other religions. It’s equal, in a way, since announcing you have all the answers to questions without any answers is every bit the same act of faith as promoting your invisible friend in the sky and his gaudy landscaping decisions and poor parenting choices.
Yeeeep this is very true. She’s still acting out religious tribalism.
Joyce’s current brand of atheism isn’t just that she doesn’t believe in God/Jesus anymore. She’s switched to fervently insisting she knows The Truth™️, and everyone else who doesn’t know The Truth™️ is stupid and dumb. She’s switched out the specific beliefs, but it REALLY really sounds the same as how religious people judge non-believers/other religions.
Which is why I hope she modifies her stance, or at least changes how she talks about it. Throw in a dose of WHY TRY BECAUSE THE WORLD SUCKS ANYWAY and she’s on a fast track to depression and other mental health issues. And I think that’s what Sarah’s reacting to in this strip, not that Joyce is an atheist.
Keep in mind I agree with her, I’m an atheist myself! But right now the way Joyce is talking about atheism still, at its core, sounds very religious. I don’t think she’s truly gotten to shake her religious upbringing yet, which is understandable but also… sad? I hope she gets help, like therapy. :C
This. Am an athiest married to a polythiest. Also, all these kids need therapy but many of them seem to think what’s offered on campus doesn’t really help… which checks out with what I remember of my previous university’s mental health support.
Joyce is only insisting she knows The Truth because Becky confronted her on it now, before she had any chance to form a cohesive web of new beliefs.
Like, it’s a pretty textual element to Joyce’s newfound lack of religion that Joyce has so little understanding of the world now that she thinks her personality is something her death cult created. She can say the penis word now because nothing she does matters, Heaven and Hell aren’t real.
But, she was starting. She’s just a monkey, and then Joe pat her on the head in an extremely manly and romantic way and granted her some while telling her that she could decide for herself what gave her meaning.
It’s a character drama series so obviously it’d never work out this way, if only because Joyce adapts to change the way the coastline does, but if Joyce got the chance to figure out that she was a monkey and other fun facts, do you think maybe she’d eventually be able to settle on a worldview that let her respect Becky saw things differently?
But now Becky, Dorothy and Sarah are forcing her to stand up for something she only barely believes in, because Joyce doesn’t have anything to believe in anymore at all. “I’m right” is just about the only thing she can hold onto, because these clowns made her grab it.
I’m just also worried a lot of people are rude and unpleasant in their anti-religion in a way that doesn’t actually help anything…? I’ve seen it mentioned elsewhere before by activists that this is actually playing into religious leaders’ hands. They WANT the atheists to be loud obnoxious assholes, because it makes it easier to gather the frightened flock around them. Much easier to convince people to never leave their tiny town if they think, with some legitimacy, that the lawless heathen outsiders will just hurt them.
Not that that’s exactly fair – I think Joyce’s current anger at Christianity is totally warranted, and I share a lot of the frustration.
I agree with you Dandi Andi, I think the subtext of how Becky and Joyce practiced religion differently is still there but the more superficial conflict here is definitely a lot more overt
I feel like Joyce is only acting this way because Becky’s pissed at her. Doubljng down to save her pride. Mere hours ago she seemed uncertain when joking with Liz, like she was forming opinions mid mockery. I’m a little skeptical she’s really this passionate about atheism.
That makes a lot of sense.
OTOH I think she just *might* be that passionate about atheism, also. Or at least now that she’s tasted absolutist atheism, I can easily see her seeking out confirming opinions and getting absolutely high on righteousness – it’s one hell of a drug, and she has gotten hooked on it in childhood, so I’m sure her fairly long period of self-doubt has left her craving it pretty maddeningly.
I absolutely relate to the powerful attraction of a clean-cut, black-&-white, right-vs-wrong sort of ideology, esp. in one’s late teens/early 20s. I’m sure more balanced and healthy people didn’t go through that sort of phase but oh I sure did. It wasnt atheism for me, but it had a lot in common — rationalist, utilitarian, culturally marginalised, primarily online, politically radical (at least superficially). and for quite a few years, while I remained a generally measured and gentle person, you didn’t want to get me started on that one topic. I would get disgustingly high on being right, it was absolutely a power trip. And I think part of me needed that. The affirmation. The confidence.
Coming down off it a few years ago was a bit painful, but I feel stronger intellectually for having been, not so much wrong as… well, kind of a fundamentalist. And an asshole. An unshakable believer. What did shake me finally were not arguments, but people, and values, and aesthetics. What made me give it up wasn’t being proved wrong, because that was structurally not possible (utilitarianism, in the wrong hands, is a kind of faith), it was a nagging sense that I was missing out on richer, deeper conversations and connections.
Look, I get it, Joyce isn’t in the headspace for stuff like that right now. And hey, if she was talking about how evolution is real and sexual purity was bullshit, I don’t think anyone would dispute it. But just ‘god is stupid and I’m gonna make sure everyone knows it’ is….oof. An unavoidable oof maybe given what she’s gone through, but this feels like it’ll get worse before it gets better.
Yeah, Joyce just wanted to talk about her beliefs with a like-minded person, and now everyone’s treating her like an asshole for speaking her mind when she wasn’t even talking to them. Fuck this idea that the only good atheists are quiet ones, Joyce is right and she should say it.
Look, the lifelong emotional trauma that’s left a gaping void in Joyce’s perception of everything she once though of as unshakeable truths leading to a point where she had the first chance ever to get angry at growing up in a death cult in a private conversation with a sympathetic ear, getting interrupted by Becky being a wildly over-possessive weirdo stalking her through facebook so she could assert herself in the face of Joyce’s new friend hearing Joyce vocalizing that anger for the first time and immediately taking ownership of, having their first fight ever where the both of them spend all of it talking past each other, and then your big sis telling you that you deserve to get fired from your new job because your paying for your hubris will help big sis get off, none of that matters, okay?
Joyce is being problematic and shitty. She’s so unsympathetic. She’s not respecting her friend who told her that she’s an atheist as a result of a personal moral failing. It doesn’t natter how her closest friends are completely incapable of asking what the fuck is going on for even a second, she’s not considering their feelings enough so actually she doesn’t deserve sympathy. Inconveniencing someone with your emotional trauma makes you a toxic friend.
“Inconveniencing someone with your emotional trauma makes you a toxic friend”
…Exactly what you said, without being sarcastic? I think in this case, Joyce and Becky were both shitty to eachother. Becky might have violated Joyce’s boundaries by listening into that convo, but Joyce never apologized for *hurting becky*. She didn’t need to apologize for what she believes, her beliefs are totally unproblematic, except for the “all christians are idiots” one. But she probably should’ve at least _denied_ she thought becky was an idiot when given a chance, or apologized for ‘making fun of her behind her back’ instead of trying to reverse-convert her on the spot
Look I’m just gonna come at this honestly, I don’t know what to say when I write something as obviously morally repugnant as ““inconveniencing someone with your emotional trauma makes you a toxic friend” and then someone goes “yes that’s totally correct.”
It pretty easily translates to “treating your friends like garbage when you’re upset is wrong?” Like, I don’t think going to friends for support is bad, but even if it’s *forgivable* to treat someone like shit when you’re working through things, that doesn’t mean it’s *acceptable*
This isn’t binary thinking DK. You’re not alone in realizing that just because someone is themself hurting, or has a valid reason for being angry, it doesn’t make it ok to be an abusive jerk to the people around them. Joyce and Becky are both needing to vent their anger somewhere, but clearly venting at each other was a big mistake.
It’s not that the only good ones are the quiet ones it’s that the loud ones are just assholes. They act just as bad as Evangelicals. Literally the same. No one likes it.
Joyce just took her jesus training and turned it around but ITS THE SAME METHODS.
And good golly no one likes either direction. Same asshole, new message.
Yet people were willing to give her some leeway as a super-annoying Christian. Now they’re acting like it’s worse. At least now she doesn’t believe anyone is going to hell.
Joyce was always gonna be pissy regarding religion for a while, regardless of what Sarah said. That’s what I meant by ‘unavoidable’. She’s too traumatized not to be and we’ve known for a while that she processes that via anger. I get it and I’m not totally unsympathetic, but that doesn’t preclude her acting like a jerk. She’s not the only one, but them’s the breaks with complicated situations. Nobody’s entirely without fault or jerky actions and characters are both sympathetic and unsympathetic in different ways.
Joyce was definitely super pissy when she was confusedly bumbling around on what being an atheist means, when she found out she was a monkey, or when she got to verbally express some anger at all the bullshit she had gone through like a God who let her be sexually assaulted to teach her a lesson.
I’m saying she was not at all pissy in those instances and was processing normal human emotion that don’t need judgmental labels and things only went wildly wrong when her friends took ownership of her outraged reactions to their idiocy.
I wasn’t intending the use of ‘pissy’ to be a judgement on her. Feel free to sub the word ‘angry’, ‘bitter’ or even just ’emotional and upset’. Point is, she was never gonna feel GOOD about religion right now.
…Sarah didn’t bring it up. Sarah was talking about Joyce being so confident that she’d get the cartoon slot. It was Joyce who shifted things into “also god’s not real and this is proving me right so screw you Becky”.
Sarah was pretty clear that she was expecting a fall with all that pride. Her first line in the first panel of yesterday is “Oh. So you won?” where Joyce notes how pointed that “oh” is, that then segues into how Joyce should experience comeuppance because Sarah thinks it’s better than sex, and then in this strip, right here, Sarah goes off about Joyce’s behaviour again.
It’s almost as if Sarah was talking about Joyce the whole time, or something.
Oh, Sarah was 100% talking about Joyce the whole time.
But it wasn’t Sarah that brought up Joyce’s new “God can go fuck himself because he doesn’t exist that’s why he’s so awful” mindset, that was all Joyce.
What do you think would motivate Joyce to bring that up when Sarah is telling her, specifically, exactly, with no margin of error, that she deserves to be punished for how she acted today.
What could possibly motivate Joyce to dig her heels in on that.
Because Sarah seemed to just be talking about Joyce’s arrogance in how she’d totally win comic spot?
Sarah was talking about the comic stuff, Joyce uses that as a springboard into her dickbag interpretation of Atheism, Sarah expresses bitter regret about how much worse Joyce is right now. That’s how I’m reading the last two strips, at least.
“Pride cometh before the fall” is a pretty core Abrahamic tenet. It’s arguably more important to modern Christianity than the whole “be good to each other” (at least, based on their publicly observed behaviour). Sarah is definitely aware enough to know that, especially because she knows she gets high on schadenfreude.
There is a reading of this then, where Sarah is the one who brings religion back into the discourse. And even if she didn’t mean to, Joyce would see it that way because of her biblical knowledge.
Saying that “pride cometh before the fall” is a concept of Abrahamic religion is like saying “murder is bad” is a concept of Abrahamic religion. Sure it’s in there, but it’s hardly EXCLUSIVE to them. Ancient Greek, Babylonian, etc myths are rife with it.
“I just liked how you wanted to make it better” is such a friggin’ loaded phrase because it gets to the core of why Sarah’s been a total douchebag these last two strips: the Joyce she constantly mocked and treated like a dumb child? Well she wants her back and Sarah’s convenience matters most.
Why Joyce is like this doesn’t matter, whether or not Joyce is comfortable with it doesn’t matter, and Sarah sure as fuck won’t do anything to help. Better stand off to the side and complain about it making snide moral judgments of Joyce.
Like.
Maybe Joyce being someone who “wanted to make the world a better place” means that Joyce not being that person in the immediate moment is something her big sis could help with, or at least help shape Joyce in what is clearly an emotionally turbulent time? Talk to her? Empathize? Do literally anything other than witness Joyce walk through the door in a good mood and tell her she deserves to suffer so you get off on it?
Nah, that’s effort and Joyce knows she cares deep down.
I get similar vibes. I’m also not sure Joyce arc is actually analogous to either end of the angry atheist phenomenon. I used to watch quite a bit of that fad and I guess I saw alot of either shitty people and people that were venting.
Joyce somehow has the backstory of someone that is venting but the last few strips have her characterized as a superiority complex which doesn’t quite strike me as correct for someone that has seemingly been humbled several times over and was always written as naive over the more arrogant Christian types.
Sarah’s investment is just weird to. I don’t understand the snide comments or the investment in Becky but not so much that she’ll do anything other than vagaries?
Everyone just feels to suddenly be judgemental of Joyce and Joyce feels backwards written to justify it by breaking into mustache twirling.
Realtalk here, I legitimately have no doubt anymore that this story will not be “how Joyce learns to stop being a bad atheist.” I don’t think Joyce’s eventual realization that she never had faith and how that impacts her will end with the triumphant conclusion of “Joyce is nicer so Becky will stop being sad.”
‘Cause no one wants to remember this, I understand, it was a whole entire chapter ago, but Joyce was processing the whole “I am a monkey” thing pretty fine with Joe, who let her flail and screaming and run around in circles while offering his own feelings on how being a monkey is pretty liberating.
Like, wowzers, it’s as if this only went wrong when the three people Joyce loves more than anyone took ownership of her angry trauma response and told her to stop being so problematic.
I don’t think it’s a fair assessment that she never had faith but some of her actions at this point I could be wrong. I think it is unfair to say people who de-convert from a childhood faith never had faith because of the effort that usually goes into it even if it turns out to not be self sustaining in adulthood.
I’d agree with your assessment on her friends, it actually strikes me as strange that all of them are somehow in lockstep when I’d have expected some sort of mixed diplomacy from Dorothy and more understanding from Sarah considering she’s been witnessing most of the details more.
It’s beginning to feel more like a Joyce is wrong story and maybe this arc will press her to have Joe as her only social outlet which could be an interesting combo for a bit.
I don’t think people who deconvert had no faith. I had faith, however minuscule, when I deconverted.
But Joyce treated her religion where the fire-breathing dinosaurs on the ark were a textual fact of life. She was a Young Earth Creationist. All of that objective nonsense she believed and it all came crashing down at once because she assigned the same importance to all of it.
This is one of my pet peeves, when people tell me I never really believed and I goddamn well did believe. I invested a lot in Christianity and abandoning it cost me even more so they can go jump in the lake. Maybe one of those lava lakes.
Nobody has the right or position to tell you if you really believed or not.
As for her friends, well, I sortaaaa theorize this big ol’ drama bomb went down to reset Joyce’s status quo, and I do think some of that will involve more panel time with Joe and, I hope, Dina, since those two strike me as the most interesting characters for a “Joyce tries to understand atheism” plot. I know Dina hasn’t shown up yet at all for this, but that conversation’s gotta happen eventually and for much the same reason I think the whole ‘I’m just a monkey!” thing was the best place to start; it’s funnier with Joe because Dorothy would be too nice and understanding about it in a pleasant circumstance, and I feel the same about Dina.
The way I see it, Becky’s outraged, Dorothy’s a mom, and Sarah’s a grumpy pissgoblin, so once all three of them come down from their own immediate reactions they’re gonna need to process that. Becky’s pissed off at Joyce, how long is she going to do that? Dorothy waddled in and threw platitudes, is that going to mean anything to her when she realizes how deep this goes? Sarah’s being Sarah in a time where she needs to pick up the slack the way Joyce has for her, what’s going to happen now that she’s already messed that up?
It’s a chance to examine the main character’s relationships with her friends and how they’ve relied on Joyce being placed in a box that they don’t know how to handle her stepping out of. That’s too much to give up for Joyce being wrong at all her friends until she admits fault.
Sarah’s a misanthrope. You can’t really expect much from her. Yeah these strips highlight a shitty part of her personality but that’s kkind of what you get.
It is a bit unfair to say Sarah only wants what is covenient for her though. She’s warned and advised Joyce plenty today which is actually doing a lot for Sarah. Joyce just chose not to listen. And this sudden jaded atheist attitude is unhealthy.
What we’re seeing now isn’t really who Joyce is. Maybe parts of it are as she rediscovers her idealogy but also she’s just kinda being a smug brat too.
No, Sarah wants the person she admired back. She envied the strength she saw in Joyce to keep trying to improve no matter how fucked up things got. Sarah saw Joyce as a beacon of hope. A sign that not everyone was a bastard.
Maybe that Joyce could come back if Sarah expended even the slightest bit of emotional support in sitting down and at least attempting to listen to Joyce, whether that’s a sincere outpouring of feelings or just angrily going off on one at the moment like a burst valve, instead of being the world’s biggest douche with no friends.
I feel like this is an unfair characterization of Sarah. She’s done the emotional support thing, sometimes in her own ‘Sarah’ way and sometimes in the way you’re thinking of. In big moments and small ones – she’s usually one of the first to check in with Joyce and see what’s up when she’s acting strange. So while she’s not exactly batting a thousand right now, I don’t think it’s accurate to say she’s not emotionally supportive.
Sarah’s always been interesting in how she both is and isn’t more emotionally mature than Joyce. It feels weird to me that she seems to just be pressuring Joyce with this “apologize in the right way” kinda push.
I guess my presumption of Sarah would’ve been that she’d reprise her “tell Becky how you feel” and “be honest” bits from earlier which isn’t the same thing as apologizing as much as clarifying. I’d also kinda expect the conversation at this point to be “you know you’re risking this friendship permanently”.
It seems weird that she seems to be pushing apology early in the strip only for it to end with indifference. It kinda gives me whiplash.
It also could be that I’m just projecting too much into this arc. I presume Willis has had some form of de-conversion experience just based off his ability to reference Superbook so some of this probably is authentic. I just remember my own de-conversion growing up in a very forced religious environment and then my own views on the angry athiest community.
I just struggle to see Joyce as the smug archetype as much as the venting one. Most of the Smug Atheist types I saw went on to be anti feminist or whatever else and while the majority of venting types would do the angry breakdowns talk about their past and usually slowly moved to other content.
I only know the eventually moving to other things phase other than I still find some of my relationships held hostage by my old faith with some family that would only ever take my feelings as some form of personal assault.
It also could be that I’m just projecting too much into this arc. I presume Willis has had some form of de-conversion experience just based off his ability to reference Superbook so some of this probably is authentic. I just remember my own de-conversion growing up in a very forced religious environment and then my own views on the angry athiest community.
I can’t help but wonder if Joyce isn’t being the teensiest bit performative here. Like, I didn’t have a fundamentalist upbringing so I could be totally off-base, but over the years I’ve gotten the impression that fundies teach their kids that atheists are holier-than-thou pricks who are just angry at God for things that went wrong in their lives. Y’know, like that atheist professor guy from God’s Not Dead who’s mad at God because his mom died of cancer.
Joyce, to be clear, has very good reasons to be angry after everything that’s happened, but I wonder if fundamentalist stereotypes about atheists are on some level influencing her reaction to becoming an atheist.
Oh absolutely. It’s quite a bit like “Well this is the thing you all said it was bad to be, so I might as well become exactly that! Just to spite you for hurting me!”
And like. Honestly, valid? But also I kinda think this is just an inevitable kinda phase of de-conversion where spite is all you have to base anything on, until you actually form a new foundation for your own moral values and beliefs. So it’ll pass, and everyone is really genuinely being too damn hard on her for being angry for like literally ONE day.
She’s figuring shit out and being obnoxious about it, so what. Friend etiquette when you break up with someone is to pat them on the back and agree with everything they say about how awful their ex is, this is literally the same thing, only her ex is religion. It’s only something you gotta comment on about it being annoying when it goes on for like, weeks. Days, even, if we want to be cognizant of DoA Comic Time.
Friend etiquette when you break up with someone is to pat them on the back and agree with everything they say about how awful their ex is,
Love the analogy ^^
I do believe the situation gets a little more nuanced than this when you throw Becky into the mix… she’s not who Joyce is having a breakup with, at least …not yet >.<
Yeah, my take on it is more that she’s being a jerk through this, but that’s not really surprising under the circumstances. As milu said, it gets uglier when it spills over onto Becky.
But then I get into arguments with people claiming that Joyce is doing absolutely nothing wrong, and I suspect it’s easy for arguments against that to sound like I’m condemning her utterly.
Personally, I have a few issues with this being an inevitable phase because of my own experience of becoming an atheist. I’ve never thought people were idiots for believing in religion.
Yeah, Joyce isn’t completely deconverted yet, and she’s definitely trying a fake-it-till-you-make-it kind of approach because she literally knows no other way to fight back the rest of her brain that’s constantly lying to her.
Very superficially. Dawkins comes at this from a very different place – as a scientist and an upper-class twit. Joyce never was either, Dawkins never was a fundie, and it all shows.
Cancelled is just the hip way of saying ostracized. Ostracism has been an age old tactic of many a social circle. Christians have a long and storied history of ostracism (to the point of death, even) and it’s not exactly a new tactic.
To some extent, that’s what social groups are. If you don’t push out the people who don’t conform, there are no boundaries and it’s not really a social group at all.
One day, we will all have brain chips that record everything you say and repeat your most devastatingly prophetic lines back at you once you’ve gone and become your own worst nightmare.
It’s not scifi dystopia if it makes no sense other than produce sheer existential horror
how is it worse exactly? because Joyce has creative interests now? because she’s exploring her faith (or lack thereof?)
I don’t see what Joyce is doing wrong that would deserve any sort of comeuppance
Oh man… although she’s only intended to let loose her rage at religion around Joe and Sarah, I sure HOPE she shapes up in a way that DOESN’T involve showing this side of her around Asma.
The consequences of THAT would be absolutely CATASTROPHIC.
This Joyce? She is in a ‘trample on everyone that believes in God’ mode. So right now, she is being worse as she isn’t being very kind to the people around her. She knows a bunch of people in her hall believe in God.
Joyce isn’t trampling on other people. She’s trampling on herself. Specifically, she’s trampling on her old stuff. She’s upset at how stupid she was. She’s upset at how SHE believed all of this stuff.
Joyce is decompressing and it’s going to be messy.
Except Joyce flat out told Becky was stupid for believing in God.
She’s not talking about herself and is very clear she is not talking about herself. She has been 100% direct that she is talking about Becky and is upset Becky is not on the same page.
More specifically, she was talking about herself and the things she believed in that she now recognizes as false, but the caveat there is that Joyce processed it all as objective facts, and assumed everyone else did.
Joyce can’t really insult Becky’s faith because Joyce doesn’t know what faith is. Becky saying “I believe in God” means exactly the same as “the Earth is 6000 years old.”
She literally told Becky she’s an idiot. She literally made an ‘in your face’ comment about Becky in the prior strip. She literally intends to use her webcomic to express how believing in God is stupid which she is saying IN THIS STRIP.
I do believe it is partly to do with calling her prior self stupid, but she is doing it in a way that tramples on other people that are not herself as well. And they may just be collateral damage to her lashing out at herself. But as this comic has already pointed out before, it isn’t cool to turn people into collateral because you’re going through stuff or want to make someone else learn a lesson.
Not only did Becky ask “do you think I’m an idiot” and then there wasn’t an answer, as in Not Saying No is maybe sorta different than “literally telling Becky she’s an idiot” after Becky already told her that her apology was worthless, but then she called Becky smart enough to deconvert like she did.
(this is because Joyce doesn’t understand Becky’s faith much like how Becky didn’t understand Joyce’s adherence to rules, so right now Joyce isn’t capable of being nice about it)
It certainly can be, probably less of one in a conversation where Joyce and Becky talked past the other the whole time. where Becky “is an idiot” because she believes the Earth is 6000 years old and that dinosaurs were on the ark (because that’s what it was to Joyce and both of them think the other processed it the way they did), and that Becky isn’t an idiot, she’s actually smart enough to deprogram the way Joyce has (in the same way that if I’m eating paint chips and you tell me not to, you hope that eventually I’ll be smart enough to stop).
Like, Becky’s only “an idiot” to Joyce because it’s all a lie but she keeps agreeing with it, the way Joyce is a failed as a Christian because she based her faith (that never existed) on being better than you.
I mean Becky doesn’t believe in any of that. Joyce knows she doesn’t. She still believes that means Becky is an idiot because apparently all of it must be true or none of it.
This is fucking definitely not true. You’re saying this about the girl that said Roz was going to suffer in hell for eternity for having sex and that kept trashtalking Walky to Dorothy so they’d break up and she could have more Dorothy time.
Joyce wasn’t nice, she was an asshole, except she was POLITE about it. Your current objection to Joyce is the objection a bunch of Republicans have with Trump – “gosh, he’s saying the quiet part out loud”.
(of course, this is also the only objection many Democrats had with the Trump, which is why the Biden administration can outright murder ten innocent civilians, go “too bad, so sorry, we’d definitely do it again, consequences? for us? lol, haha, no” and every fucking shitstain goes “my god, so presidential”)
I too process my investment in fiction on a scale of Wholesome to Problematic.
Going on an emotional journey with the cast and getting in their heads is extremely cringe and secondary to making rapidfire moral judgments of their actions in real-time.
No, I mean the nipple in the fiction. Not “fiction about violent murders and real-life nipples” but “fiction which has both violent murders and nipples, but somehow the nipples are very problematic and WON’T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN”.
I will never be able to comprehend the mental gymnastics required to be legitimately scandalised by a nipple. But yeah, a dude gets sawed in half in front of his screaming kids and it’s somehow A Family Picture.
(about three days after Biden’s inauguration he was already bombing the Middle East, and, I shit you not, there were fuckwits unironically going “he’s bombing people and not tweeting about it, finally a president I can be proud of”)
I think what people might be missing here is that Sarah’s not 100% a cynical misanthrope.
I mean, she absolutely are those things. Duh. But no one is one thing all the time. We contain multitudes. With Sarah… yeah, she was a cynical ass who takes a bitter pleasure in seeing the fall cometh to the prideful.
But there’s a part of her that enjoyed Joyce’s hopeful idealism. She thinks Joyce is dumb and wrong and childish, sure, absolutely… but there’s a core part of her that wanted Joyce to prove her wrong. It’s why she’s so often slipped into the big sister role for Joyce, because that kind of optimism can be just as infectious and seductive as painful cynicism.
Because… well, it would be so much better if they were right, wouldn’t it? Don’t get your hopes up, sure… but maybe this time…
That’s why she’s so morose here. She was right. Huzzah. Cynicism confirmed. Exactly what she expected, and not at all what she wanted.
What we’re seeing from Joyce is a trauma response. She’s had her entire worldview, one she’s been immersed in since she was a child, completely shattered; things she thought were absolute, inviolable truths — including her parents’ marriage — have vanished like smoke. Wouldn’t you be angry? Wouldn’t you feel like you’ve been lied to since you were born?
Why is she being such a buttlord about it? Because she’s very, very good at not processing her own trauma, and this is all a deflection from the very real trauma of what might, to her at least, look like a genuine split with her childhood best friend. She’s lashing out.
I grew up in a fundie environment not dissimilar to Joyce’s, though hers was worse. I know what this is, I know what she’s going through, and I know that her bad behavior is because she’s hurting. Comparing her to the kind of edgy, privileged Youtube Atheist who rails against the possibility that they might, at the end of their lives, face one single consequence, is unfair and even a little mean-spirited. Why do trauma survivors have to be soft and quiet and weepy to deserve empathy? Is it because they’re less obtrusive and inconvenient that way?
I only wish someone had been there to walk me through my own trauma, to take me aside and ask “Hey fam, are you okay? You’ve been acting pretty uncharacteristically lately, is there something going on?”
Shit, I’m almost 40 and that’s still rare. And threads like this just remind me of that fact.
Just because we understand Joyce’s trauma doesn’t mean we can’t hope she’d be processing it better.
The path Joyce is taking is going to hurt people. Not if, it will. Heck, it’s already hurt Becky. And regardless of how understandable the process is, it’s not going to take away the pain she’s going to inflict.
“Hoping she’d process it better” is…REALLY condescending, ngl. With absolutely ZERO help or support from her peers? Nothing but derision? Like come on, people.
Well sorry she doesn’t have the kind of healthy coping mechanisms you’d expect for a home-schooled ex-fundamentalist who’d been through multiple traumatic experiences including a kidnapping, culminating in the apparent death of a classmate and her seemingly-inseparable parents divorcing.
Thanks for proving my point about which trauma victims get empathy and which ones don’t.
Remember that the people you’re judging (aside from other readers, I mean the characters here) were also kidnapped and nearly murdered, had Mike to deal with, so separating people into “trauma victims” and not-trauma-victims isn’t quite as clearcut as all that.
Walky wasn’t even traumatized when he was actually in the process of being kidnapped. No one cared. They freed themselves and then they had to go take a fucking math test.
What part of Joyce’s trauma at her religious upbringing factors into these clowns?
You know when you were saying “this isn’t a ‘don’t @ me’?” Kindly don’t @ me. There’s plenty of “I identify with this character, if you don’t respect the character how dare you insult me so!” going on without adding to it. “Clowns.” Listen to yourself.
Also “going off to take a math test” is a pretty good depiction of psychological shock.
As in Walky’s friends were stabbing the guys who abducted them with forks after watching a dude get beaten to death with a hammer, and then he’s standing there with Ethan describing how his ass is like a softball.
I’m saying I don’t think the actual real life traumatic act of being kidnapped and watching a dude get murdered in front of your eyes really carried forward with the cast, and it was more of an explosive action-oriented story to wrap up the League of Evil Dads.
Like, I don’t wonder why Lois Lane doesn’t have PTSD from all the times she got dropped off a building.
Didn’t we just come off a series of strips where he deflects his feelings towards losing the comic gig with a “bullet dodged” comment only to have it immediately revealed that it affected him way more then he let on
Like masking his real feelings is kind of Walky’s whole thing
Okay but we know that was emotionally devastating to Walky because the comic gave some weight to it.
Moreover, it’s not like being kidnapped and watching a dude get murdered with a hammer should be traumatizing to just Walky, it should fuck with all of them, and it sure as hell didn’t.
Like, have Dorothy and Sarah, since the timeskip, ever gone “wow jeez that was fucked up”? Because Sarah’s commentary was Liz joking that she should tell her professor she got kidnapped again to justify missing class before saying she doesn’t have to clarify at all because it’s college.
To be clear if we eventually get to a point where we found out the cast all had to go through therapy for it during the timeskip or something, that counts even if it doesn’t get dealt with on-panel. Mike’s death over the timeskip was similarly for the reason of letting the cast grieve, just not for years on end.
But whenever the dramatic fallout from the kidnapping creeps in, it’s stuff like Mike’s death or Ross’ death, not the part about being tied up in a basement by a man in a Halloween costume.
Dorothy went to therapy after watching Ryan being stabbed, I’m pretty sure. Being kidnapped and watching a murder seems orders of magnitude worse, and even if that somehow didn’t affect anyone, they still all lost a member of their friend group. They probably haven’t said “wow that was fucked up” specifically because of the time jump; it’s likely a conversation that happened within a few days of the accident.
I think that happened? I remember Dorothy being pretty fucked up about it, like wigging the hell out watching Amber cut him up with his own knife, and I know Dorothy sees a counselor on the reg anyway.
But what I’m trying to get at is that Dorothy’s horrified reaction and dulled emotional response the next chapter until she eventually let it out with Amber was there for me to contextualize it all in a way that I don’t have for the kidnapping, so I can’t draw a conclusion on their emotional reaction because the story never showed, hinted or inferred at one existing.
Mike dying yeah, that’s definitely fucked Walky up, and we can easily read that into his character, but no one talks about the kidnapping itself, if we’re coming at this from “how did this work out for them in-universe?”, probably because they got counseling and moved on and we just never saw it so we didn’t see them all with thousand yard stares for a few chapters.
She hasn’t been given a chance to process it better, maybe she would have had Becky not tracked her down for the crime of doing something and not involving her, thus forcing her into a position where she feels she has to be defensive of her newfound beliefs
Yeah! Joyce why can’t you process your intense trauma, and current massive grief of your parents divorce in a POLITER, quieter way as to not upset anyone else? Geeze so inconsiderate with those eratic, troublesome feelings.
Seriously. The fact that none of her supposed friends haven’t tried to sincerely talk to her about what’s going on is *infuriating*. (Becky is excused, obviously. But everyone else.)
And Sarah here is being openly hypocritical here. Her whole personality is centered around being a misanthropic curmudgeon, but suddenly Joyce is having a hard time and lashing out and suddenly Sarah has Opinions on what kind of person Joyce is allowed to be? Eff that.
Situations like this are really good for seeing who your real friends are: the ones who call you in, instead of just calling you out. And I can tell you there’s a lot of folk in this thread who wouldn’t pass that test either.
Someone disagreeing with you doesn’t make them hypocritical. Loudly telling them that they’re not worthy of being your friend when they never asked is kinna self-righteous though. The personal attack was uncalled for and accomplishes nothing.
Yes, and? Why are we comparing Joyce to a collective of openly racist, homophobic and misogynist shitlords who use their atheism and fixation on “logic” as an excuse to be openly racist, homophobic and misogynist? Did nobody google “false equivalence?”
Note to self: trauma responses that hurt people are totally okay and I should condone them because it’s empathetic to support hurt people hurting others.
Also, please remember that Sarah is the child of divorced parents, and has an explicit policy of burning bridges with people rather than being some kind of supportive. That is literally her backstory. (This is also a description of Joe, incidentally.) Actually having a relationship with Joyce is against her better judgement and she’s being proven right despite softening her stance through exposure to Joyce.
I’m not sure what the intention of your second paragraph is. Is it justifying that Sarah has had trauma in her life and developed a coping mechanism based on avoidance, and that’s understandable even though it hurts others? Or are you just explaining why it’s not out of character that Sarah is hurting people? Because I don’t see June saying Sarah is acting out of character, so I don’t see why you feel the need to remind them.
What we say is often at odds with what people want us to have said, so that they can shout at the worst possible version of us.
Not taking a side here, just casually dropping a reminder.
Dang it’s wack how Sarah’s history driving her to act the way she is now super valid and respected but Joyce’s totally isn’t, even when Joyce is acting the way she is now thanks to her friends taking ownership of her trauma.
Yeah, Joyce is going through a lot right now. That said, people don’t have to like her ‘acting like a buttlord’ as you put it. Her trauma is valid, but her trauma response can still hurt people and be jerky. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t deserve compassion for what she’s gone through but it also doesn’t mean people have to be fond of the way she’s acting at the moment. I’m referring specifically to the comment section, not the characters in verse. I’d imagine right now that the reason Dorothy hasn’t talked to her is because of the context she saw all this in and the fallout for it. Dorothy is also allowed to not have perfect responses to everything. I’m hoping we’ll see the kind of talk you want in a day or two – mind you, in strip time, that could still be quite a while.
Basically this. She’s acting like a buttlord for understandable and even sympathetic reasons, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t acting like a buttlord. We can both condemn the buttlord part and sympathize with the reasons. It seems like some in the comments don’t accept that and double down on either the “she’s doing nothing wrong/it’s fine because trauma” side or the “she’s turned into a monster” side.
Which is frankly what the commentariat tends to do in any nuanced situation, which always surprises me, since this comic is basically all about nuanced situations without clear villains, at least when the main cast comes into conflict – obviously there are outside clear villains. Mostly Dads.
I understand the characters not reacting in an ideal way though, for exactly the reason you’ve pointed out: some trauma responses get sympathy, others not so much. If only because they’re legitimately hard to process as such. To all the world, certainly to Sarah, it would appear as though Joyce is just pleased as punch with herself right now, and far from needing any support, could use a reality check. Unfair as that is, it’s ultimately on Joyce to do the work of articulating what she’s going through in a way that gives people around her a fighting chance of understanding that she needs their support. Anyway, I do think Sarah and Dorothy both are reacting so strongly and uncharitably because of what went down with Becky, not the Sudden Atheism itself.
In all this i wish Joyce had someone to talk to who might have gone through some of the same stuff and has had time to process it and gain a modicum of chill and detachment about it… An older sibling perhaps? *fingers white from being crossed way too hard*
(I say its “on Joyce”. OK that’s a bit offputting. I dont even like that sort of phrasing and morally try to avoid them. I mean it would give her more agency here if she knew to do that.
But no, you’re right, it’s “on” her friends too. My point is more to how predictable Sarah & Dorothy’s response is, and I hope they try harder to empathise with J rather than going on their gut response. I guess I wanted to say that learning to express what you need is empowering and empowers others to act in a way that benefits you, but that’s the sort of self-help mantra that is more damaging (victim-blamey) than helpful in the midst of things. Anyway)
That’s been frustrating me about some of these comment threads too. If you’re processing trauma, somehow you have to do that without pissing off your friends. “Yes, your religion and family betrayed and traumatized you, but don’t yell at your mother, young lady!”
Geez, somebody recognize that she is hurting! She doesn’t have the capacity to be polite to everyone because she’s still in the middle of that emotionally “fight or flight” stage. Her brain can’t take in rational conversation right now.
I wish she (and Willis) and every other person processing this kind of trauma had the friends/resources to recognize this and the support them. Be #TraumaInformed
Yeah, like, I’ll be honest, that’s probably why I’ve been so… deep in this?
I recognize most of this is probably the result of complex opinions on managing difficult aspects of human relationships getting explained in ways that don’t necessarily capture every nuance the person saying it holds to, because it’s the comment section of a webcomic and most people don’t write a eight million words a day here like a certain someone*, but the very broad way these thought processes are getting conveyed is, well it’s something I find particularly irksome, because it strikes me as a topic that can’t be summed up in a phrase.
If I sat down for like 20 minutes with anyone I’ve been arguing about this with here, I’d probably come to a greater understanding of what they mean, but trying to convey all of that here all at once is probably really difficult.
It looks like everyone is going to push her away and right at him as the person who has been the MOST understanding with her lately. I just hope that she isn’t trying to spite her old beliefs and jump into sex as a revenge on them. That’s a whole messy spiral.
Honestly, I get Sarah. I don’t think anyone wants Joyce to pretend to be something she’s not anymore, even Becky who just maybe needed more time to process this change.
However, by timeline standards, literally the night before, Joyce went from being comforting on the anniversary of the death of Becky’s mother to giving not a damn to how Becky feels at all. And that is not fundamentally how Joyce has been portrayed, the cause for this trauma has been because of how much she cares for Becky so it’s weirdly callous. I imagine it’s definitely weird to those around her. I don’t blame Sarah for thinking maybe naive optimism is perhaps better than trampling everyone around you.
Joyce doesn’t owe anyone anything but, yea, within a few hours, she’s evolved into literally bringing up atheism every time she speaks now in every conversation and how her mission in life is to debunk everything she used to believe. Generally people don’t handle sudden seismic shifts like that well. Sarah and Dorothy haven’t been as tactful as they could be but who HAS been?
I think at least we can all agree she’s an inherently good kid who’s going through a rough patch right now, despite her present behavior being, well, debatable.
The frustration of watching your friends turn on you the second you stop being the person they all mocked and looked down on. Sure they all love Joyce but it’s unfair to dismiss how condescending they can be, and while their reasons make sense, it also makes sense for Joyce to want to scream and rage.
Joyce is definitely being performative here, last panel is displaying her weakest anger.
This freedom of being out of the closet is going to Joyce’s head. It’s understandable, Becky went pretty wild when she came out too, but this is not a healthy way of expressing that euphoria.
I think Dorothy needs to sit Joyce down and have a talk with her.
I do. I love that she’s getting to say all of the things that have been banging around her head. I don’t want any of my friends to feel stifled into being polite about their changes.
No but you don’t get it, she’s free and it’s all because of trauma anyway so it’s totally cool and good actually that shes acting like a massive asshole bc it’s stupid that the only “””good””” atheists are the ones that show basic respect for others
Why’s Joyce gotta be worried about being a good atheist at the moment when she has twice now, once today, proven incapable of even calling herself an atheist?
Why do you people only care about whether or not a character is being nice or mean and not anything that’s making it happen?
Cuz, idk, i don’t really care about people’s motivations when someone gets hurt. Impact over intent and all that. I’m not mad about Joyce’s character development or anything, I think this is interesting and I’m curious where it’s gonna go from here, how this arc is gonna be resolved and all that. But yeah, Joyce is being an asshole is a fact right now and i don’t think she’s entitled to other people wanting to delve into that. Esp since this is a college dorm, none of them are gonna have the best response.
I get having a trauma response, i have trauma (religious and non), everyone has trauma. I just hate when people try to use their bad experiences as a shield to hide behind while treating others poorly. Which isn’t what Joyce is doing, but it is what a lot of commenters (especially those few of a reddit seeming variety) are doing for her
It feels super goddamn weird to me to care so little about why someone is lashing out in the face of pain and trauma that their humanity just goes away until they sort it out.
Especially when being an asshole something no one can here can quantify beyond “Joyce is being mean to Christianity and her friend she had a fight with.”
Right? Like, “don’t talk to me until you’ve sorted out those uncomfortable angry feelings.” I mean, I get that from both sides. Nobody likes being dumped on when someone is in a rage. Joyce needs a safe place to vent and process. But until she and other recognize that, it’s probably her friends getting the brunt of it. If she were all weepy (as someone said above), would they be more sympathetic? Easier to deal with?
I think even if she was focusing her anger on her specific church, her friends would be a lot more sympathetic.
But yes in general, people are more sympathetic to signs we perceive as pain – like crying, than to anger, even when that anger is coming from pain. Especially when that anger is directed at them or can be seen as directed at them, since it’s cast widely enough.
(To start, Carla’s a pretty neat gravitar, definitely high up in my list, and hell yes trans rights and self representation (even if I’m not a fraction as cocksure as her))
All in all I think Joyce is in a pretty rough situation this storyline, and had no good way of getting through it without this rocky road. She has nobody safe to talk to about her feelings of loss of faith nearby to help her get over her self righetousness. Becky’s doesn’t think negatively of atheists themselves, but she’s always had a streak of atheistphobia. And the way Sarah and Dorothy reacted to the opening incident proves they were Not Safe to open up to about this. Because remember, whatever kind of buttface Joyce strolls around after this, these reactions from these people were ‘only’ to overhearing some thoughts Joyce wanted to keep private from them.
Sarah turning vitriolic and perhaps unloading a lot of her hostile feelings about Liz (warranted or otherwise) onto Joyce who is suddenly a good proxy, and Dorothy turning disappointed in a way that’s only happened with the Ethan relationship, which means she thinks “having the private thought being christian is dumb” is on par in badness with “homophobic relationship”.
Sure, one could say that if Joyce talked to them about it quietly and in private and politely they might have been up for a more sympathetic and well flowing conversation. But given how incredibly hostile they are to Joyce showing any anger at her upbringing here, she’d always have to walk on eggshells during those conversations.
I fully expect Joyce’s mindset to warp around to a more healthy one as this plotline wraps up, and look forward to it. I just know that it will need somebody who isn’t Becky, Sarah, or Dorothy to help her.
She’s hypocritical here? Sarah has been a little angry curmudgeon for a long time and she’s gotten away with saying things and being in a way that people could have rightly shunned her for. JOYCE stuck with her and loved her and was kind and accepting of all her grumpiness even when SHE was hurting.
Now that Joyce has her turn being grumpy for a few days she’s getting attacked on all sides. Even in her grumpiness she’s not being vicious. The things people have said to HER have been vicious. They’ve said things that have been INTENDED to HURT her.
That everybody is dogpiling on Joyce right now is a little absurd.
Hypocrisy thy name is also Sarah. Yes, the shtick is to keep people away by being a grump. But if you like someone because they take on an emotional workload you refuse to do? If you liked her because she worked towards making the world a better place? Than do some lifting yourself to make it suck less too. It’s not up to Joyce to keep shouldering the happy meter just because people got used to it.
I mean, the read I get isn’t even about Joyce it’s that it’s worse for Sarzh because she wanted someone to do a positive emotional work load that even she wouldn’t do. I get you’re read and agree with you, just elaborating… also… sarah… Joyce gave you halloween even during having an epiphany her parents were against Halloween because she loved you. Maybe show love back in ways other than hitting someone with a baseball bat. (although I’ve been told by sibling groups complaining about the worst traits is how you show love? I am but an effectively only child)
Joyce makes an easy target, apparently. Looks like everyone is going to push her until she either comes back to the fold, apologizes or goes to the people who haven’t demanded she behave and toe the line.
Long story short; Joyce has faced some unprecedented trauma and she’s changing as a person. Change can be uncomfortable. This is going to be uncomfortable.
I guess maybe it’s the reaction to getting ‘caught’ and how Becky is hurt and Joyce is doubling down that Sarah might have issue with then actually saying the things?
Like Sarah did feel bad briefly about talking smack about Joyce to Jacob too granted too so maybe she’s also basing some feelings on that too.
I just don’t understand why none of Joyce’s friends are willing to just listen to her. That’s what friends do, provide a sympathetic ear. That’s literally all you have to do, just shut your mouth and let her vent for a bit, then go back to your life. THAT’S IT!!!! You were able to do that whenever she’d go on about Jesus or whatever, and you can’t do that now???
Becky deserves someone who will do that for her too, btw! Multiple someone’s! (I’m gonna HOPE it’s maybe Dina, but who knows, it’ll probably be Robin at this point.)
Also I hope Joe takes this as the moment to go and be that friend for her since not a single other person is willing to be there for her, apparently. He’s already proven to be pretty good at it thus far, despite his insistence that he isn’t.
I don’t know why you expect Joe to do any better. He might, but do remember this is the guy who complains, loudly and aggressively, every time Danny brings up feelings. You know. His best friend from childhood.
In defense of Joe: he complains, but ultimately he’s willing. Even the worst thing he’s said to Danny’s quest to talk about feelings was just a super-blunt request for information about what flavor of supportive he needs to be. That Danny heard a refusal to engage is not entirely accidental, but Joe steps up at need. If Joyce needs, he will.
Joe also literally already helped Joyce process some feelings about her religion a few days ago in-universe? And literally yesterday he was going around absolutely manic and BEGGING Joyce to talk to him about her feelings, and then had a good conversation with her that made her feel better? And even last semester, he was happy to have Joyce vent to him about stuff over text like, for a whole weekend.
If I had to think about it, and I do, it’s related to Joe and Joyce, I figure he was quiet in his room because the drama had boiled over and Dorothy and Sarah were there, meaning they’d take care of it and he could be Shallow Friend.
Joe was the one she talked to when she returned home with Becky, was the one who talked her about divorced parents, the one she texted for grounding and realness even after their horrific date. It’s why she angrily says He Cares when telling him to go check on Amber
Sarah tbf when Joyce wanted to ‘make the world a better place’ she did shit like try to make a gay guy straight. Sure there was a lot of selfish desires wrapped up in that but…
Yeah. Like how Christian!Joyce defined a better world or how she was raised to think of as a better world was probably a mess? Like some good things buried under a pile of bad ones she had yet to come to terms with.
Yeah, I mean that’s kind of what Becky was saying to her (in an angry and hurt way) when they were fighting, that she though Joyce’s faith was deeper than the BS stuff
Poor Joyce. She just wants to be free to say what she wants and believe. But everyone she knows and were her friends is telling her that they don’t like listening to her now. Joyce has the right to change, even for the worse. After all, right now it’s her anger talking for her and this usually subsides over time. Sarah, let her be mad at the world and don’t judge her!
Her changing is fine, it’s just that she’s currently changing into (or already being) an obnoxious person that many people will (or should) not want to be friends with. Joyce certainly has the right to change, but everyone else has the right to stop being friends if she does decide to change like that. (At least until she does get it out of her system and falls back into a more healthy personality).
It’s not about her switch to atheism, it’s about her personality switch from ‘nice person’ to ‘endless hate fountain’.
Sarah seems to be making an effort to point that out here, and hopefully steer her back on a healthier course where they can still be friends.
Joyce was in a pretty good mood celebrating her job until Sarah told her she should suffer for her hubris by being fired. She wasn’t throwing her unwarranted hot takes at Daisy.
Like.
Could that be relevant? Could it perhaps matter that Joyce has twice acted like this because Sarah goes “ugh, you don’t really care”?
Is it just me or does it feel like Joyce being obnoxious about her recent deconversion is getting more hate from Sarah than that time she, uh, tried to date Ethan into straightness?
I think the comments section was giving Joyce the benefit of the doubt on account of her being brianwashed into believing those things, and little opportunity to draw new conclusions from experience. Apparently they expect more / something different from her now.
Also, as I recall, Ethan was explicitly into it at the time. So while that situation was all kinds of messed up, it’s hard to say exactly who she was directly hurting.
Joyce was more of the mind she was dating a Jewish guy. It was Ethan’s decision to go back into the closet (under Mike’s influence). I actually blame Mike for that 100%.
If I remember correctly Ethan had started dating Joyce without telling her he’s gay so she could act as his beard.
When he told her he was gay she decided that she still wanted to date him. Her stated logic is they could still date and avoid the temptation of men together.
Personally I think Ethan is an adult and can choose to commit to a sexless life or not. The part I find gross is that she tried to push him to do sexual things with her and tried to ward him away from girly things.
I mean, it’s complicated. Joyce wasn’t really Ethan’s beard so he could go and live on his own time, she was his beard so he could tell his parents he’d stop being gay in the hopes that they’d love him again.
Part of it is that Joyce needed someone who’d be around her all the time, and Ethan is a guy who is physically incapable of A. ever responding to Joyce’s sinful lust and B. think about her inappropriately which is pretty relevant given the recent trauma of being attacked by Ryan. Her stated motivation when they get together is, as Sarah put it, a mutual revulsion to fucking.
It’s the most sympathetic “dating a gay dude so he’d become straight” the world has ever seen, but, like, she was still dating a gay dude so he’d become straight. You know that whole “until today that was you” thing Roz said? Joyce wasn’t that to Becky, but she sure as hell was to Ethan.
This isn’t a case of the dreaded HYPOCRISY, though, that terrible crime that’s somehow worse than actual outright bigotry or outright wishing death upon strangers. This is just that Sarah’s view of Joyce has changed.
Back then? Joyce was her annoying-ass roommate who was acting like a typical white girl home-schooled shut-in who’d only be interesting in that she’d be easy to tease with notions of how sex actually does exist.
Now? Joyce was the closest thing Sarah had to a little sister that she truly loved, someone with a hell of a lot more strength and courage than it looked like on the surface, and who gave even bitter, cynical Sarah a bit of hope that things might actually be able to get better.
Early Joyce trying to date Ethan into straightness? Annoying and detestable, but everything sucks anyway, it’s exactly what she’d expect Early Joyce to do, and it’s obviously going to fail, might as well watch the fireworks and build up some I Told You So cred.
This Joyce turning into Richard Dawkins? It’s disappointing. Early Joyce never disappointed, there was no way she could’ve scooted under that low bar short of shit like raping someone. And I think that’s what’s pissing Sarah off most of all right now.
Yeah- Sarah was recently kidnapped held hostage and threatened with death, so it’s possible her patience reserves for “more Brown Family drama (which includes Becky), world without end” isn’t as high as it was.
The punchline to the strip where Sarah and Liz go to breakfast was in Sarah exasperatedly stating she wasn’t going to tell her professors she had been kidnapped again.
There was an entire strip of Walky and Ethan standing there cracking jokes while a fight happened behind them.
Walky was still Walky during the whole thing. The very first strip is him snarking that he’s not going to be traumatized and then Sarah walked off because she had to go take a math test.
The kidnapping had no actual dramatic impact on any of the characters involved. It killed Blaine and Ross, and when Ethan comes back it almost certainly will, but everyone else? Hasn’t made a dang peep.
They all had a lovely time on Garbage Roof that very evening.
Like, it’s hard for me to read anything deep into it when it had no dramatic consequences for the personalities of anyone involved, and the dramatic consequences were plot-oriented like killing off Blaine and Ross, and setting up Mike’s death over the timeskip, the latter of which is where the character drama stuff comes into play for Amber and eventually Ethan.
Granted I do gotta roll it back a bit, Walky did display some shocked emotion after the fact when he talked with Dorothy, but that’s about it. It hasn’t factored into anything in how these characters have been written since, though it’ll probably become relevant again when Ethan comes back and seems like a good springboard for Walky’s transparent grief over Mike’s death.
Like, Joyce was agoraphobic after the party, she couldn’t walk outside alone. We got extremely clear indicators for years how much that messed her up, and we’ve never seen that do anything to the cast who had been kidnapped that didn’t involve Mike’s death.
Listen…I know what I’m about to say might be a bit controversial, but here I go. Joyce is not handling this losing faith trauma without collateral damage, she’s definitely acting with more anger than people would be comfortable towards and she’s not processing this rage against her upbringing well. But are none of her friends going to sit with the fact that a tiny fraction of this anger at herself might be on them as well?
Not a ton, obviously. That goes to the violent homophobia and cruelty of the people at her church. But literally everyone around her has taken a shot or two at Joyce’s hyper Christian upbringing. Every time these guys made these jokes is probably playing through her head, every time she was called brainwashed or weird, every time she was laughed at for not using curse words, or laughed at (by Sarah!!) for feeling uncomfortable confronting her ideas about evolution, all those times she’s expressed her previous ideology and was met with open ridicule. To the extent where a more aware Joyce plays on people’s expectations of her being a crazy fundie by pretending to freak out about Halloween, at this point she knows how she’s being viewed.
I’d be angry, too. About how I walked through my life looking so stupid to everyone around me, how my religion played me for a fool like that. The fact that no one is looking at their previous willingness to make fun of Joyce and her conservative Christian hang-ups in the same light as Joyce’s bitter lashing out at the god that truly fucked her over is- you know what? Upsetting! Disappointing! We all spent a significant time dumping on Joyce’s faith, maybe she sees herself as joining in on that party!
I’m not saying that Joyce’s attitude is great and lovely or CORRECT, but just a tiny bit of compassion or concern would be great! (I get it. These people aren’t great at emotions all the time and they’re not perfect, but this is something that’s been bugging me. Hopefully I put it right.)
True but she is turning into a militant atheist who, in the long run, will be no different than militant Christians. Kind of like how saying that God has a plan to someone who has just lost someone they loved is just as cruel as saying that God doesn’t exist and prayer is stupid to someone who lost someone they loved and are praying to sooth the pain.
I think it’s been a *day*. So I think “turning into a militant atheist” is a bit of a stretch at this point. She doesn’t know exactly what her religious identity is right now. She’s looking at extremes, of what she is *not*. At some point, she might figure out the possible nuances. Right now, she’s in reaction mode.
Joyce’s position right now is that it’s right and fair to take shot at Christians for believing in God. Full stop. Whether or not they’re being assholes about it is irrelevant.
Interesting point.
Being the odd one out in a group or wider community is hard, you need a lot of confidence to withstand the snark and jeers. In her previous life, Joyce’s Christianity received constant positive reinforcement, but now that she’s in a broadly secular place, she has had to deal with the discomfort of outsidership.
… yeah, it’s likely the christian-bashing she had to put up with took a toll on her and that is now contributing to her current defiance. And it might also explain why she’s so taken aback by Sarah’s lack of support. “I’m now who you were all along, what’s the problem?”
I’d be angry, too. About how I walked through my life looking so stupid to everyone around me, how my religion played me for a fool like that. The fact that no one is looking at their previous willingness to make fun of Joyce and her conservative Christian hang-ups in the same light as Joyce’s bitter lashing out at the god that truly fucked her over is- you know what? Upsetting! Disappointing! We all spent a significant time dumping on Joyce’s faith, maybe she sees herself as joining in on that party!
It’s true and you should say it.
Relentlessly mocking Joyce was fine because she’d make silly Joyce faces instead of crying or getting angry. How could she get angry anyway? She believes in the craziest, most messed up stuff imaginable that’s so dumb you can just say it out loud without a joke.
I get where Sarah is coming from but I don’t think a blanket “this is worse” was the best way to handle it. I hope someone is capable of sitting down with Joyce and explaining the issues with her attitude instead of just condemning it.
Which according to Radiah means she should be the height of sophistication. Or something. (That time when she with Billie/Asher etc going on in front of Sal about how mature they now were is still hilarious).
Right? That entire exchange was hilarious.”Ooh, bring out the faaaahhhnnceh China, butler, I’ve guests coming over, ahnd they simply mustn’t imbibe their Mountain Lightning from the can like some sort of PEASANTS!”
The real punchline is that Sal then started going out with Danny because he’s been a constant source of emotional support and stability in the face of chaos being hoisted onto her.
Or: Sal totally one-upped Billie on the “settling down” thing because Sal is just always better than her at everything.
I find myself having to remember that while I’ve been sitting with it for weeks, the confrontation with Becky and subsequent boiling over of Joyce’s inner feelings about her conversion has lasted less than eight hours so far.
Lord knows *I* have been an absolute asshole about a bad situation for “most of a day” before, and I’m certainly glad my friends didn’t drop me for it.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that her friends have dropped her for it. Or that they will or should – unless it continues indefinitely.
Pointing out that she’s acting like an asshole, while she is in the middle of it isn’t the same. Should come along with a bit of trying to understand why and helping her work through it, but it’s early yet.
I mean no one’s dropped her or indicated that they will, except maybe Becky for good reason. If you’re being an asshole for a day -even after a bad day- it’s pretty normal for your friends to be like “dude you’re being a dick right now”
When you’re friends being a dick as a result of clear as day emotional pain you already are aware of, is it not kosher to, like, sit down and try to reach out to them?
If your best friend was angry as fuck about something, is the first thing you’re gonna say “calm down there dickbag” or would you ask what’s wrong? Are you okay? Did something happen?
Why are these clowns expecting constant empathy and constructive emotional processing Joyce when they can’t even acknowledge her feelings for a second?
i mean, it makes sense that a crisis of faith didn’t break joyce’s lifelong habit of loudly evangelizing her belief system as the One True Interpretation of All Existence, and also believing that everyone who doesn’t share her beliefs is a damned [literally!] fool
Aight, so, I’ve been pretty clear where I stand, and I’m trying to wrap my head around some of the other reactions I’ve been seeing since the Faith-Off went down.
With what I’m going to ask, I’m going to say upfront I will not respond to any comments made about it unless asked, not in a “don’t @ me” fashion but that if anyone feels that they want to share their reads here because I asked for it, I don’t want them to do so and then I stroll in to argue. This is, purely, for me to get where others are coming from, and I’ll only respond back if someone indicates that sharing their take is something they want me to weigh in on. Just, y’know, don’t cherry pick a single line and go “heh, gotcha.”
Bluntly, what is with this drive to label Joyce as being shitty in the face of her trauma response?
This ended up being way longer than I thought so here’s some tags to CTRL+F for if you wanna skim through real quick to see if there’s anything specific you want to share your thoughts on, deeply apologetic I wrote a forum comment so large it needed tags:
1. Joyce is being disrespectful to religion.
2. Joyce is being a jerk to believers.
3. Joyce lied to Becky and talked behind her back.
4. Joyce is being a jerk/shitty/problematic.
5. Joyce’s trauma doesn’t make this okay.
1. Joyce is being disrespectful to religion.
This one kind of strikes me as the most absurd, and I feel that it’s one that relies on a fundamental misreading of Joyce’s character.
Joyce never had faith, she had facts. You know how Dina believes in verifiable science and changes and adapts her views with them? That was Joyce, except her verifiable science was that dinosaurs were on the ark, the Earth was 6000 years old, carbon dating is being fooled by time dilation from the Fall, and that a sky sea surrounded the earth and let humans live to 900 years old by protecting them from UV rays.
Joyce was not like me, someone who was culturally generic North American Christian, went to church, eventually lost my faith because my faith wasn’t important, and so it faded. Joyce now is essentially where Dina would be if Satan popped out of the ground with a dinosaur skeleton going “yo nerds guess who got fucking OWNED'”; every single thing she knew as a fact is wrong.
Also, it’s pretty damn important that Joyce did not have what can be described as a generic North American Christian upbringing. Danny and Billie had those, I bet a lot of us did too, and we’re seeing Joyce be angry at something us atheist and agnostic-types mostly engage with as casual if always present spirituality.
Y’all, Joyce did not grow up like that, she grew up in a death cult that beat into her that she has no value as a human being. The religion she is lashing out at is the one she’s known, and other Christians, because I cannot imagine Joyce is even capable of processing other faiths yet, only factor into that in how they all bought into the same lies Joyce did, because those lies were all Joyce knew.
2. Joyce is being a jerk to believers.
This is correct only in the most broad, thinly spread way possible. Let’s put it like this:
You come across me, and I am currently eating paint chips because they’re yummy. You tell me not to, you pull out article after article explaining the dangers of what I am doing, the harm I am causing to myself, and I laugh in your face. Wall candy makes me strong.
Joyce, who I will reiterate is incapable of processing religious belief as anything but an adherence to inerrant facts that define the origin of life to her own morals and the personality she has, has realized she’s been eating paint chips her whole life, surrounded by folks who have also sustained themselves on a diet of paint chips, and her best friend is one of them. Joyce doesn’t think Becky’s an idiot for eating paint chips, she thinks Becky’s smart enough to eventually realize that eating paint chips is bad for her. Becky’s intelligence doesn’t matter, she’s been indoctrinated into eating paint chips and there’s not a way to square eating paint chips as a good thing, and I’m sure you can figure out the metaphor I’ve been getting at without me needing to spell it out.
3. Joyce lied to Becky and talked behind her back.
lmao no shut up
Becky is not entitled to the contents Joyce’s brain, even if last story she told her she has to drag the Joyce Nonsense out of it since Joyce momentarily hesitated. Joyce can be an atheist and not tell her even if telling Becky would make things really, really convenient for Becky, even though Becky treated Joyce’s questioning of her faith as a stupid tantrum, and Joyce needed to tell Becky not to fuck Dina or she’d go to Hell like she was supposed to.
Joyce was having a private conversation with a sympathetic party that let her be mad at her death cult for the first time in her life. “I’m dumb for believing in God” is only harmful to Becky if Joyce’s ability to say shit is contingent on how her weirdo stalker friend will process it while hiding behind her door.
There is a slight possibility if Joyce actually believed that about Becky she would, given time, modify it, because Joyce modified the fuck out of the rules she followed when they told her to betray Becky. Joyce doesn’t need to process the complex realities of her now dead religious indoctrination for Becky’s convenience.
4. Joyce is being a jerk/shitty/problematic.
Correct.
Do you care why? Or is this series an exercise in “which character is the shittiest” for you?
‘Cause on one hand I’m gonna drop the civility for a second and say that if we’re holding Joyce accountable for processing her anger in a private conversation Becky stalked her to, then I don’t care what you think, you’re wrong. I don’t actually need to respect that.
It shouldn’t be this hard to understand where that anger is coming from. It especially shouldn’t be this hard when we can flip back to last chapter and see how Joyce deals with atheism with Joe, how she acted with Liz where she’s talking about her dumb bullshit religious doctrine the way it was treated, and only started saying anything of human consequence when Becky walked in, and it was only of human consequence because Becky walked in, the way Sarah and Jacob openly mocking her didn’t have human consequence since they didn’t get caught, so Joyce wasn’t there to be upset that they were laughing about how she’d snap and suck a billion dicks.
Do you think, perhaps, being exposed by Becky and Dorothy stalking her to a private conversation, being browbeaten into making it right by three of her friends, told that her apology is worthless because Becky says so, Becky telling her she failed at being a Christian because she only believed to be superior, and upon returning nobody asked her how she’s doing and instead started drilling again about how she’s “not really sorry” might, eventually, provoke Joyce to double down on being confident in herself? What is she supposed to do when she believes something and no one can hear her out long enough to understand why?
Like, you know you’re reading a character drama series, right? Where the thoughts, feelings and emotions of the cast are as important as the surface level actions they take? Are you only reading to say Joyce is problematic? ‘Cause I don’t get that.
5. Joyce’s trauma doesn’t make this okay.
Okay so here’s the thing. I can reasonably understand the idea of “you can’t lash out at your friends when you’re angry and it’s okay” in a vacuum. I think it’s a remarkably childish, self-aggrandizing and morally simplistic viewpoint masquerading as worldly empathy when phrased like that, but that’s because it’s the catchy slogan version of a more complex thought process like “you can’t force yourself into helping someone who’s not ready for help, you need to back off for your own sake, and once they’re ready to talk it out with you then you can be there. You can forgive a person for hurting you in an irrational state, but you can’t allow yourself to continue being hurt over and over, there needs to be an improvement and they need to want to improve.”
That I get.
Do you really think that level is getting hit here?
Because y’all’re writing this as if Joyce slugged Becky in the face and not, like, two childhood friends who love each other more than anything in the world had the first fight of their lives on the most important subject imaginable, and Joyce is dealing with it badly because her baby steps into figuring out the atheism thing got derailed.
Joyce and Becky had it out, and even if this whole thing happening is Becky’s fault for stalking her in the name of asserting herself as Joyce’s Cool Christian Friend, Becky gets to be mad. It’s important, also it’s feelings quit trying to mathematically quantify them, you weirdos. Life doesn’t actually work on a scale of Acceptable and Problematic.
Dorothy and Sarah have provided nothing but posturing, egotistical judgment in the face of Joyce wildly changing. They cannot even for a second consider Joyce’s feelings, and you can make a pretty reasonable guess as to why if you read into any of the existing character dynamics between them. These two are, actually, totally equipped to be empathetic and helpful to Joyce, but they don’t want to. Sarah sure as fuck doesn’t, she’s only capable of inserting herself to tell Joyce she should shut the fuck up and go back to the stupid fundie who constantly put in all the effort of their friendship.
It’s an obsession with moral purity and polite civility over the thoughts and feelings that drive someone to act out that I can barely conceptualize when discussing a fictional character who you can not only mind read at any opportunity, you can build a profile by going back and checking any appearance they want with the extremely convenient character tags. I can barely conceptualize it when discussing a fictional character, someone who cannot actually cause the grief that motivates someone to pull away, I sure as fuck can’t conceptualize a friend of mine acting like Joyce is now and going “damn so problematic time to end this toxic friendship.”
Person who is reading this, you’ve acted out, and I’m only calling it that because it’s the simplest way to get across that you’ve done some transgression at the consequence of a friend. Someone was there for you when you did, and it was okay that you did. You didn’t change that because you hit the Problematic scale and were being oh so shitty to your friends, you changed because your feelings mattered more than the brief instant of you lashing out as a result of who knows what the fuck. You don’t need to mathematically quantify feelings, you just fucking feel them.
You matter more than the problems you cause and anyone who doesn’t get that doesn’t give a shit about you, and you can take that to the fucking bank.
I think everyone is responding to a specific element that really gets under their skin.
Like I find Dorothys response to be disappointment instead of concern for why Joyce was acting like that, pretty disappointing if not expected. That gets under my skin because friends downplaying one friends feelings for another is a hurt I’ve experienced. Other people seem to be very hurt by the dismissing of belief.
Which on the one hand I get because belief is a highly personal cultural thing that absolutely gets shit on (especially Muslim and Jewish religions), but also this discussion is about Christianity so while Joyce being a “skygod” atheist is not great also Joyce is going after one of the most powerful religions on the planet, maybe one of the most powerful(a lot of political movements in America Britain and Australia(my country) are effected by Christian movements). Like I’m sorry Christian’s but your religion has done some damage to a lot of people and I think it’s well within the right of many to be mad about it. Joyce isn’t coming from that perspective but as a queer myself I struggle to feel sorry for people following a religion that actively harms people like me(Becky being gay doesn’t change the badness of Christianity).
So everyone has baggage including the comments section. Logically it’s 2 friends having a big fight caused by both having understandable fears and angst and honestly despite the ramble I think Beckys right to be angry, but so’s Joyce.
I guess if we all thought about what’s getting under our skin we might have better conversations. For me it’s being an autistic trans whose been in some real bad social dynamics, also went to catholic school and is kind of annoyed that religion mattered for 6 years.
This got me thinking about something, and to be clear it’s a personal conclusion I came to reading this as opposed to assigning my own words to you.
Like, is it really a moral imperative to care about “jerk atheists” when their target is the most powerful religion in North America?
You can’t friggin’ both sides that when the Angry Atheists are jerks on computers and not a cultural cornerstone with immense power and influence over the course of North American society! What does it even mean to be intolerant to an entity for whom tolerance is mandatory because there’s no way to shake it, when that intolerance draws from cultural history, let alone personal history like being brought up in a death cult or otherwise directly suffering at the hands of religious institutions? Why the fuck would you not hate them, and why is that hate invalid because, like, there’s A Good Christian somewhere and he doesn’t want to be included when you say “fuck Christianity.”
My dad’s catholic, he was also back a decade ago one of those insufferable old leftists who was fine with being gay, but you were still a source of mockery.
And then I came out to him as bi in 2014, pretty much because I was about to burst, and he, like, immediately altered in real time every single behaviour related to how he processed the existence of Queer folks. Never a crappy joke about it again, he’d encourage me to bring someone with him and specify a guy, he signed me up one time for a dating site going “find a girl… or boy!’
My dad pulled a Joyce for me! I never thought about how fucking big that was!
But what if he didn’t? All that shit he believed in stems from North American culture, and, like, a big fucking part of normalized prejudice comes from our religious institutions to the point. If he turned on me and destroyed my life, am I being fucking problematic for resenting his faith?
Like, I’m Canadian, and for those not in the know we’re going through a high profile event where the remains of Indigenous Canadian children are being unearthed at reservation schools across the country. Let’s disregard the religious institution responsible for a second, but if someone goes “fuck Canada and fuck Canadians for causing this”… like, do I get mad? Why the fuck do I need to tut tut language in the face of anger at injustice?
Have I been going #NotAllMen for Christianity and Catholicism this whole time
I think your right that being mean specifically about Christianity and Catholicism is honestly fine because of institutional power. The problem with new atheism is the lack of introspection of the cultural impacts of Christianity and Catholicism. Dawkins might not believe in god but absolutely still follows a lot of the same beliefs around gender, sexuality and Muslim people. In practical terms still a Christian, at least culturally.
As an Australian who learns every day of horrible things done to First Nations Australians, part of that history is the institutions of Christian’s and Catholics. There’s a whole group called the stolen generation because First Nation kids were taken from their homes to basically put the blak kids with white kids and remove blackness(basically eugenics). Christian churches participated in this. It’s difficult to square the personal dynamics of being cool with your friend whose a part of a religion and the horrible things the religion does.
I feel all you’ve said, it’s why I struggle to be too mad at Joyce when she was dealing with ugly emotions, even if Becky heard them. Like outside of catholic school, religion wasn’t really present and even I can see how much that kind of structure can hurt. Fuck, I can understand my bullies when I was going to school but that doesn’t automatically change the fact I was hurt by them.
Catholicism is a bit tricky, since while it’s also a world power, many Protestant countries have a deep history of anti-Catholic prejudice. In the US’s case, partly explicitly religious and partly ethnic, since it was tied to later immigrants.
In some ways similar to how Islam is treated – yeah it’s a major world religion and tied to an awful lot of oppressive stuff, but it’s also the faith of marginalized minorities in the US and Europe, who are very vulnerable to stirring up anger at their religion.
This is definitely affected by me living in nsw Australia where Catholicism is very dominant and is tied up in some specific Australian stuff. Thank you for adding the historical corrections though. In criticising power I don’t want to incorrectly do so
I see it, drawing from my own country, as like Quebec and its rise of French nationalism.
It is actually completely true that English-speaking Canadians marginalize the French language even though we’re officially a bilingual country, and that marginalization coming about due to a big pile of “change for my convenience.”
However, that’s manifested as a super fucked up wave of xenophobic Quebecois nuts who stalk and harass anyone speaking English in their province and install rules and laws that get in the way of their pure vision of Quebec culture. Which, like all culture wars, eventually started getting fucky with Quebec Muslims and recently some lovely transphobia.
It’s a nation-wide problem that we don’t respect the French language, but the only place they do are now being huge bags of dicks to the minority element of their province.
Fuck, that is really messed up. It’s really revealing that the only way some groups choose to gain legitimacy is through hate. Sorry your country is going through that
It’s not just the English speakers they harass, They also consider none Quebecois French speakers as not true Quebecers as well. If you aren’t pure laine you ain’t shit.
Your point about the both-sides-erism is right on. Being out of the dominant mainstream religious assumptions is like spitting against a hurricane. Any efforts are taken way out of proportion. Like the time I was on an ICQ forum years ago, and very nicely pushed back against some of the assumed religious thought. Let’s consider that not everyone believes the same way, etc. Wow. I got PMed to be careful about other people’s feelings. The Fu8k?! What about my feelings? Nope, I was in the minority, so clearly, my feelings were not particularly valid.
I think that yes, you should worry about jerk atheists. Because you are not dealing with The Religion. You are dealing with People. Individual people who just want to live their lives and do a good thing if possible. This mentality is what got you all the societal progress of the last couple of decades. Regular people being shown bad things and wanting to help. You let jerks have the free reigns of your movement and you will push those people away.
The only thing I think is missing from your list of views on what’s going on that I’ve been getting more and more concerned about is that this is absolutely starting to smell like a radicalization arc. Now, I don’t think Joyce is about to do anything violent, but we seem to be approaching that mentality of “no matter what I do everyone tells me I’m wrong so why don’t I just be wrong and enjoy it since I’ll never be right” that turns people into insufferable loners until they find “their people” and just let their feelings feedback until they explode in a very messy way. We just had a mini version of that, and I could see it getting much worse if the only response Joyce gets to what happened is “you’re wrong and bad again, and now everyone knows.” At this point, we still see that Joyce cares deeply about what others think of her, but her reactions have shifted from “I have to try to rise to their opinion of me” to more frustration and less introspection.
Is it anyone’s responsibility to make sure Joyce doesn’t go down that road, of course not (well, maybe the university’s/RA’s since these are all wee babby adults and not yet equipped to understand what’s going on), but I would imagine friends should WANT to make it their responsibility to help with this. I wonder if we’ll see friendships shift after this, depending on who (if anyone) reaches out in earnest.
Then again, I’m still pulling for this whole mess galvanizing her current friendships once people (not just Becky, but probably primarily her) have space and time to breath and realize that A) something must be wrong beyond Joyce making a loud mistake and B) that ultimately they care about each other no matter what and want to fight for their friendship.
Joyce is cringe. For now. I really like how DoA writes characters who’re going through stuff. None of the characters will be the same after college and it’s silly to expect anyone to be perfect at any point.
I do wish the friendship between Joyce and Becky can go on (same with others in this strip) but sometimes people just aren’t in the same wavelength anymore.
Still, Joyce is cringe. Stop it, Joyce, or go ask Danny for his fedora.
Whole lotta witnessing (Atheist witnessing included, yes its a thing), temps running a bit high, just gonna wish everyone a happy Halloween and return when its fun to. Have a great weekend.
Joyce is angry because recent events left her feeling suckered and betrayed, like everything she was ever taught as a child was a bold-faced lie.
Becky is angry because she just caught her best friend making fun of her beliefs behind her back, who then chose to double down when confronted.
Dorothy and Sarah are angry because Joyce is starting to take her justifiable anger in an unhealthy direction.
This isn’t about who feels superior to whom. This is a matter of emotions that have just boiled over, and how certain people have chosen to deal with them.
in this case, it’s even more appropriate because Joyce just got glasses and some commenter recently wondered if glasses caused atheism (there followed a stream of people reporting their respective spiritualities/lack thereof, and eye pathologies.) Becky even tried to save her, to no avail.
…on an unrelated note, i was trawling through the archive and i can’t believe no one said “#meta” on this strip. because, uh, the title.
Interestingly I decided to read a bit after the whole ‘Joyce gets glasses’ bit and came across this strip.
That first panel with Becky is kind of ‘oof’ in retrospect given The Schism that is Joyce and Becky at the moment even if possibly the comment on her brain is just a throw away line.
the wound is still raw, and she’s not been aware that non-Christians have to be deferential to Christians or else their pain is just dismissed as a phase.
Stepping away from commenting until the perspective switches bc a) i just had a verrry stressful messy MRI experience and don’t have the spoons to stress out about other people’s opinions on cartoon characters anymore, b) i can tell it’s already crossing the line (for me specifically) from fun petty arguments about things that don’t matter to legitimately anxiety inducing and dragging me into the worse parts of my own terrible personality so
Call me when we’re arguing about Walky’s ADHD or booster being the antichrist again or something
Have fun and take care of yourselves y’all! Esp you Spencer
So… As an autistic person, I read the yesterday strip and thought “well, everyone is angry at Joyce, so she must have done something bad.” Because this is how I know I have done something I shouldn’t have. When people are angry at me. But then I started to think and I don’t actually see that Joyce did anything that would warrant this kind of treatment. To me, it seems like her friends are bullying her. Yes, in the fight with Becky both of them could say better things. But it still doesn’t warrant this kind of ostracism from everyone else.
I see a lot of myself in Joyce in today’s strip. I had to learn that not every time somebody’s is angry at me I had actually done something wrong, and I’m still learning to stand my ground in this kind of situations. I’m proud of Joyce that she can stand her ground. She is learning new things and she stands by them. She evolves. Those are good things in my book.
And for the record, I sometimes see autistic traits in Joyce. Not that I think that she is actually autistic, but she has some traits. The food thing, for example. And I think she sometimes doesn’t do people very well. But with autistic traits, it isn’t her fault. She is doing the best she can, with a great passion, as she always does. She was not authentic in her interactions with Liz, and that was unfortunate, but again, this is something that autistic people do – try to change their behavior according to those around them to fit in. It’s a survival strategy.
Just my 2 cents from a neurodivergent point of view.
Methinks that’s an aspect of how it works for many neurodivergent people, but obviously not everyone. There are various different ways to be neurodivergent. 😛
I think only you can judge that – it can be because of various reasons. But I believe it is one of ways to cope with not understanding societal rules very well.
Thank you for saying this, I am also autistic and definitely see what she’s going through as unfair considering what she was responding too. She has a lot of traits that go beyond comedic extremes(especially with food). Perhaps taking religion in a literal direction ties into that, cause I definitely struggle with honesty in that I must always be honest and maybe Joyce is the same with her consistency of religion(either it’s all fact or it’s all crap)
As another autistic person myself, I too see some minor traits of it in her. The hyperfocusing (like with her study and memorization of the bible, or more recently, her comic). I don’t think she’s a full aspie (that spot goes to Dina), but I do think she has socialization issues.
Which is meshing with the fact that this storyline necessitates that all of Joyce’s friends be meaner to her than they naturally would be, to create a really problematic situation for her. But that everyone’s behavior here is being slanted somewhat unrealistically to fit the narrative isn’t inherently a bad thing (the Villain Dad teamup to kidnap people being an example of a storyline that isn’t realistic, but does provide fruit).
I do expect Joyce to come out of this on the otherwise a more well rounded person, and seeing her growth through the years as I read silently has honestly been a great experience for me personally.
See, I don’t think they’re being meaner to Joyce, so much as they’re being like this because Joyce isn’t funny idiot bible girl Joyce and they don’t know how to deal with it, so they blame her. She’s causing a problem to their existing social dynamic, so they want to drag her back to her role.
So the autistic people present here see those traits in her as well. Given that this comic is autobiographical, I’m now imagining Willis reading the comments, going “huh” and proceeding to get assessment 😀
Joyce at one point tells Sarah while she’s watching a movie where characters are having pre-marital sex that Joyce’s presence reminds Sarah how impure she is, and she is completely correct.
Reading through the comment threads I think one of the running themes is just who it’s easier to relate to.
A lot (not all, but many) of those who are angry with Joyce’s friends and want them to understand and empathize with her instead of condemning her seem to be ex-Christians who went through deconversion themselves – they understand the mindset at work, they understand the impulses, they’ve seen it in themselves and they know where it’s all coming from, and they see a wounded soul in need of compassion. They see someone lashing out in pain, and know personally that a soft word turneth away wrath, at least in these kinds of situations.
But to be honest, the internal mindset of someone deprogramming from Christianity isn’t, I think it’s fair to say, something widely known among the general population. That isn’t a framework most people have available for use when analyzing relationship dynamics. The frameworks they DO have and relate to most are things like “talking shit behind someone’s back isn’t cool even if you think it’s private” or “refusing to apologize outright when you hurt someone is bad” or “Wow, that militant Christian has become a militant atheist and is as much of a dick as they were before if not more so” or “I don’t care what shit you’re working through, you don’t get to hurt me/my friends and use that as an excuse” or “You may be angry and those feelings are valid, but I also can be angry and THOSE feelings are valid too.” Not everyone has all of those tools or prioritizes them in the same way but for better or worse, those are the tools that most people have at hand when confronted with a situation like this. Unfortunately few of these frameworks specifically dictate compassion towards the person acting out as a first response, and I think there’s a general understanding that someone who DOES respond in such a way is going above and beyond the call of society – someone we’d respect and admire as being particularly compassionate and even-tempered, as opposed to being the norm from which deviation appears wrong and shameful.
And the thing is, you can see why it’s set up this way because when those tools come into play in isolation they’re often in the context of someone being an asshole and the societal expectation is that it’s not on you to accommodate someone being an asshole. If for instance it had been Malaya or Mary or someone using any one of those frameworks, we’d probably not be saying that it’s on everyone else to understand them with compassion and put up with their bullshit. They relate, in other words, to the person being hurt or the bystanders, not the person lashing out. But in this case, we DO get a deeper picture of why Joyce is acting the way she is, [i]if you are particularly empathetic or familiar with the signs[/i], and for those who can see her pain they look for compassion. Everyone else mostly sees someone coded by society as “kind of being a dick right now,” and responds accordingly.
Which is all to say that Jocelyne is probably the person that Joyce needs to talk to most right now in the universe because she’s probably the single person who can best understand where she’s coming from, and it’s a shame that Joyce has no in-universe way of realizing this.
After reading this comic without commenting *for years* I am finally so frustrated to the point I have gone out of my way to write this out. Not only that I back read about a year to make sure I remembered what happened in the relevant strips.
Joyce’s behaviour is 100% justified and reasonable. She is not problematic or toxic or militant or radicalized. She is perfectly validated in how she is reacting and has not been shitty or unfairly lashed out at anyone at any point. Basically every single one of her friends have failed *her*. Joyce has been working exceptionally hard to unlearn her harmful behaviours, to the point where mid behaviour she stopped and acknowledged what she was doing and changed course (re: boosters gender identity). She’s not perfect, sure, but she has grown considerably in what has been a few months. No one else in this story has had nearly the same amount positive growth.
She has been quietly, and mostly internally, dealing with her loss of faith for a while- and often times she has opened up about it she has been scolded, not supported, or the conversation has been quickly derailed by someone else’s bigger trauma. Consistently Joe has been her most reliable person for having these feelings as they come up when they come up in whatever way they come up- and there is still a lot of issues there. And the entire time she has been trying to be careful of Becky’s feelings and (suuuper unhealthy) possessiveness. She even put up a clear boundary with her, saying “I don’t want to talk to you about this”. Ultimately she has been dealing with this very much alone with no one who makes her feel safe and heard.
Enter Liz, who says, out loud, the things Joyce has been thinking in her head, and who, at least in some ways, understands what Joyce is saying about her feelings. Liz is, as far as we can tell, the first person who has made her feel safe and heard about this huge, world changing thing she is dealing with. Now Liz is, from a different perspective, kinda insufferable. She and Sarah have some History(tm) among other things, but for Joyce she is the first person she’s ever met who has come out the other side of transitioning from christian to atheist. She is also loud and has a big personality and seems to be a bulldozer, which is a type of personality Joyce responds well too. That kind of person matches her general energy levels while ALSO taking a pseudo-authority roll (genuinely not that different to her and Becky’s regular dynamic). Her, Liz and Sarah go to Joe’s rooms because Joe has become someone Joyce is comfortable being “flawed” around (Joe has been dealing with his own shit recently and mostly seems confused about what is happening).
Up until the *minute* before Becky walks in, Joyce has not really considered if believing in God is stupid. Liz is venting, and the wheels in Joyce’s brain are turning as she processes and explores this new angle on her rather emotionally tumultuous personal journey. There is no reason for Joyce to think that *anything* she is saying could hurt anyone, because the people who are present are all people she knows are not bothered by this. And honestly, she has no reason to believe that most of her friends would be upset by her trashing christian beliefs, because for the last semester she has been being teased and roasted almost constantly about having them. Up until this exact moment, making fun of fundamentalist beliefs has been perfectly and completely socially acceptable.
She is clearly EXTREMELY distressed when she realizes Becky heard her, and what is her friends reaction? Being disappointed in her and insisting she go apologize. The only person on her side is Liz, who is a bit much but at least isn’t angry at her for having feelings where she reasonably thought they couldn’t hurt anyone. And honestly? Yea she should apologize to Becky, and she did. But Becky doesn’t want an apology, she wants Joyce to recant and be christian and not change. Literally, there was nothing Joyce was going to be able to say that would make Becky feel better but reaffirming her faith unequivocally.
And sure, Becky gets to be hurt- but being hurt doesn’t make you *right*. Becky is in the wrong here. Her refusal to allow Joyce to have other friends means she got to overhear something that she was never meant to overhear, and then she goes out of her way to try to make Joyce feel as shitty as possible and set herself up as the victim (I don’t imagine she is doing that on purpose). Could Joyce have handled it slightly better? Sure, of course, but honestly the outcome was going to be the same. Becky had decided how that discussion was going to go before Joyce got there.
Then after no one checks in with Joyce. Not one asks her if she is okay- or even what happened. To everyone in that room Becky was the most important thing. But Joyce is not wrong, why does she have to be sorry for this? To re-frame this as an analogy, if Joyce was fiddling with a pencil when she thought she was alone and Becky unexpectedly came into her room while she was distracted and got poked by the pencil, Joyce is not at fault. She would reasonably apologize to Becky because she got poked by the pencil and it probably hurt, but she doesn’t need to be sorry about fiddling with the pencil, or even having the pencil. Doesn’t matter if Becky has previous pencil trauma, or strong opinions about the right kind of pencil- Joyce is not required to live every second of her life in a way that is comfortable for Becky.
Then she is gone for 30 minutes to do something important to her (and quite frankly if she wants to process her loss off faith in a comic then she should, even if it gets preachy no one is being forced to read it except maybe Daisy as editor), and is she congratulated? No. Does anyone check in with her to see if maybe she wants to talk about what happened? No. Instead someone she loves is trying to make her feel shitty about not being the same anymore. Yea no shit she is getting defensive.
Joyce isn’t even being mean to Sarah here, the only thing Joyce has done in this conversation is defend herself and be slightly uncharitable about Becky. Nothing Joyce has done has been cruel or unfair- even the last bit about making the world better through comics and shouting is the second time she has shouted since Becky heard her, and the first time was only after she had been shouted at and shamed for failing to do faith right while trying to apologize for something Becky had no business overhearing.
It is genuinely concerning how many people seem to think “standing up for yourself” is toxic.
So one thing I want to say here, because I think it’s something that’s kinda gotten missed a lot elsewhere as well: The problem Becky has isn’t that she overheard something she wasn’t supposed to. The problem isn’t that Joyce has the beliefs she now has (something Becky explicitly noted earlier!). The problem isn’t even really that Joyce has hurt Becky! The problem is, specifically, the fact that she is friends with Joyce, and that Joyce is friends with her That’s a relationship that goes further than others and is one built on mutual trust and respect – and from Becky’s perspective, Joyce has put both of those foundations in jeopardy.
The trust issue is pretty clear, of course – Joyce hasn’t updated Becky on her new beliefs, which is relatively minor and understandable, while the bigger issue is that apparently Joyce has been making fun of Becky’s beliefs behind her back, turning those beliefs into a mocking joke. Not too great.
The respect issue, though, lies in that mockery – leaving aside specifically what Joyce has said, what is revealed is that Joyce fundamentally doesn’t respect Becky’s beliefs anymore and thinks they’re kinda stupid. That’s a problem in any relationship – it’s hard to feel genuine friendship with someone who thinks you’re a moron and acts condescendingly towards you, even if they’re polite, magnanimous, and benevolent about it. You might perhaps LIKE that person and respect them for their virtues, but even in such a case it wouldn’t be an equal relationship, or an equal friendship.
So the question for Becky isn’t really one of right or wrong, of correct action or behavior – it’s simply a question of “Are we still friends? CAN we still be friends?” The key issue for her is their mutual relationship, and whether it can still exist in its present form or even at all given the new conditions she now knows about. If, as she seems to be trending towards, the answer is “No, we can’t,” is that so wrong? Is she obligated and required to be friends with someone who has hurt her, and apparently still intends to behave in a way likely to continue hurting her? If she decides that too much has changed and that the new terms of the relationship are no longer acceptable, is that so bad?
And to be clear, this is not to say that Joyce is necessarily in the wrong, either! She’s acting the way she is due to new beliefs of her own – she HAS changed as a person, and that’s her right. But precisely because she has changed, reevaluation is necessary, and not only on Becky’s end – Joyce has to decide too whether her relationship with Becky can fit into her new world view. Both of them are within their rights to look at the new conditions and say “No, not good enough any more,” and if they so decide, is that the worst thing in the world? Is it necessary to force a relationship whose basic tenets no longer hold true, for the sake of what was once true? Is it not healthier for them to either renegotiate how the relationship should now work, or if it turns out they’re now entirely incompatible, to end it as cleanly as they can?
In a way this is pretty much the culmination of trends – given Joyce’s new beliefs and Becky’s old ones, it was a collision course that was bound to happen sooner or later as both of them redefined themselves and their relationships.
Also as a general aside I’ll add that in any given relationship of any nature if the primary argument has become “Who’s morally right and who’s morally wrong” it’s probably a good time to question if the relationship should still exist. Point-scoring relationships are ones in which nobody wins, even if you can manage to prove that you’re right and somehow get the other person to acknowledge it.
Ultimately though, Becky doesn’t respect Joyce. She loves Joyce, they have a long and somewhat emotionally fraught history, but she doesn’t ever seem to have a lot of respect for her. She gladly exacerbated Joyce’s anxieties about getting glasses, because she was both denied being able to go get spicy chicken nuggest with Sarah and more desperate to “win” in being Joyce’s friend against Dorothy than actually be a good friend. It genuinely took Dorothy telling her that she needed to go support Joyce because she was clearly scared before she stopped pouting about her perceived loss and helped Joyce.
She has no qualms about smashing Joyce’s boundaries, and is constantly possessive of her “ownership” over Joyce’s relationships. She even realized that she was getting a little too mean to Dorothy and talked about it with Dina and eventually with Dorothy in her own way, but never considers if Joyce may find the dynamic stressful. She is incredibly condescending about Joyce’s feelings, and either brushes her off (ie, calling any visible anxiety “Joyce nonsense”) or takes it personally (ie. when Joyce first expressed being unsure of Christianity and Becky wanted to be talked out of having sex, she called Joyce a bummer and condensed to her about “having only been at odds with their parents for 30 seconds”).
Their relationship is not based in mutual trust and respect, Joyce is Becky’s emotional support friend. Becky doesn’t actually really seem to understand Joyce or think of her as a whole person separate from their relationship. Becky really doesn’t have emotional or mental space for Joyce to not live up to this idealized version of her. Meanwhile Joyce is *so careful* about how what she does affects Becky (to the point of overthinking it but thats anxiety for you) and her love for Becky was the driving force of her building her understanding of the world from scratch.
Honestly I don’t think it would have mattered what Joyce had said, the rejection of Christianity is the rejection of Becky, because she has become emotionally dependent on the idea of this friendship. And I get why, Becky has been through the shit, and Joyce’s presence in her life has been an emotional life line to God. Her newer, and overall healthier relationships, don’t have that even if she considers them signs of God’s love for her. But she is dependent on Joyce.
In this context, Becky’s hurt does not really have any bearing on the issue. The issue is that Joyce is not allowed to externally process anything that might upset Becky ever. Even if she removes herself out of Becky’s company, there is always the risk that Becky will decide that Joyce has to spend time with her now and so anything she is doing or saying MUST be considerate of Becky’s needs and feelings.
What happens if/when Joyce has a romantic relationship? Is Becky all of a sudden going to respect Joyce’s right to boundaries? She would probably be hurt if Joyce decided to have premarital sex and given her behaviour it would be entirely possible for her to get jealous that Joyce is spending time with her boyfriend again and barge in to crash it and all of a sudden Joyce is getting screamed at all over again.
You are right that they need to reevaluate their friendship, and what has to change to make the relationship healthy moving forward, but a lot of that work is going to have to come from Becky. Given that this is all maybe a couple hours worth of time, I think Joyce’s inherent kindness and compassion will filter through the “belief is stupid” rhetoric she has internalized for the first time, because we already know that she is able and willing to do that and she will feel genuinely apologetic for the hurt it cause Becky. However, Becky is going to have to deal with Joyce existing beyond her roll in Becky’s life as “best friend” following the script Becky has written for her.
re: your aside, while it is super important for any relationship to see issues like this as an “us vs the problem” rather than a “you vs me”, there are absolutely times when one party needs to acknowledge that they are/were wrong. Sometimes we are wrong, and we can hurt and mistreat people we care about, and being a good friend means owning up to it. And expecting that when your friend/family/partner does mistreat you that they acknowledge it does not mean you are trying to “win” the relationship. All that happens when every time there is conflict both parties take equal responsibility is that nothing really changes, the person who caused the problem doesn’t have to examine their behaviour or actions because it wasn’t *all their fault*.
To tie it in, this is not Joyce’s fault. She should never have been put in a situation where she cannot express anything that may hurt Becky’s feelings because Becky may show up unannounced and it will be Joyce’s responsibility to fix it. A resolution where they both take equal responsibility means that Joyce has to agree that she should not ever be allowed to express any negative feelings about something Becky likes (and conversely, positive feelings about something she doesn’t) because it would be possible for Becky to overhear it. That is absurd. It is Becky’s attitude and behaviour towards Joyce that needs to change, Joyce should not take responsibility for the sake of “fairness”.
impressive write-up powderweapon!
very good point, re: Liz being very Becky-like ^^
let me react to a couple things.
Becky doesn’t want an apology, she wants Joyce to recant and be christian and not change. Literally, there was nothing Joyce was going to be able to say that would make Becky feel better but reaffirming her faith unequivocally.
I don’t agree with that necessarily. There’s nothing within the Faith-Off dialogue itself that would indicate that. The conversation at Dina’s party is moot as far as i’m concerned. Becky and Joyce were both self-absorbed, and neither listened to the other.
All that happens when every time there is conflict both parties take equal responsibility is that nothing really changes, the person who caused the problem doesn’t have to examine their behaviour or actions because it wasn’t *all their fault*.
er… no? that may be your experience, but it’s definitely not a general truth. sharing the responsibility means sharing the effort of making things better, and that is a thing that actually happens when both people are committed to the relationship and the emotional effort required to sustain it.
(now i’m certainly not saying the responsibility is always shared. sometimes one person is in the wrong, period.)
I wonder something, about you and about other commenters such as Spencer.
Do you have friends who resemble Becky?
Loud, demonstrative, wisecracking, hypersocial, blustery sort of friends? friends you might find exasperating and a bit pushy, but it’s par for the course with them and so it’s fine?
I ask because, reading comments like yours & Spencer’s, while i understand everything you say on a surface level and find your points internally coherent and all, i just can’t vibe with the pretty appalling image you paint of Becky.
I’m not saying she can never do wrong by me, for instance she definitely could’ve been paying a bit more attention to Joyce the past few months.
but for all i’ve tried to read these comments fairly and empathize and all, i can’t help but disagree on a visceral, emotional level. Because, see, Becky feels COMPLETELY like a friend i might have, and her entire personality is legitimately attractive. Not cringey, not obnoxious: awesome. All i’m saying is, we’re reading the same events and characters very differently.
You’re channeling most of my feelings on this whole deal. I’ve been kinda disorriented as it feels like the show has telegraphed that Joyce is going down a dark path which in itself feels frustrating but now she’s doubled down in a strange way. I feel like the narrative is against Joyce but I agree with your analysis as that’s how I see the factors too.
i kinda assume that she is going to sit in these feelings for a while. partly because she is on a journey of separating herself from something that makes her feel stupid and pathetic and needs to kinda inoculate herself against that self hatred and being a bit smug for a hot 5 minutes will help with that. and partly because everyone around her is being aggressive rather than understanding so she is going to hide behind it as a defence mechanism while the only support network she has turns on her for being a little bit mean.
man i feel bad for Joyce. she’s being insufferable, but that’s just cos I’m bored with shouty nihilist atheists.
I just. can’t. with how. ALONE she is. I want someone (not me) to wrap her up in a blanket and rock her and get down into how badly she was lied to and how much Work was put on her to justify those lies, and just. how apolide she is now. who will take on the apostate. Why is she left to do all this shit Alone. She always had to do this alone. She Always had to fix her beliefs alone, because when she noticed inconsistencies in the biblical texts, it was Sinful to express or pursue those doubts. She had to make those tortured justifications up herself. So Much Work.
oh joyce =(
On one hand, it’s unfair of Joyce to disrespect Becky’s views. Becky choosing to stay religious is valid and not hurting anyone. On the other hand, Joyce didn’t expect Becky and Dotty to hear what she said. She shouldn’t say religious people are dumb, but everyone’s treating her like her actions were malicious. Joyce is angry because Christianity has been used against people she loves and she spent her whole life filtering her thoughts because she believed it too. It makes sense that she’d be upset, and while she isn’t handling what she’s going through perfectly, everyone is expecting her to do it without any outward mess, and that isn’t fair to Joyce.
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thus was begotten YELLING BIRD comics
Jeph has pretty much stopped making those.
Don’t remind me of my sorrow. The only balm to soothe me was pintsize, and he has metamorphosed and watered down too. Alas even sweet-tits is absent. So I lament,
“DICK-FACED TWAT-COCK”
’tis not the same. Now I’m spent.
nobody said a web comic is forever
Nothing lasts forever, and webcomics are preserved in our least stable medium.
That is what the internet archive is for. Saving things on the internet that shouldn’t die.
One of the great tragedies of life.
He stopped years ago. Frankly I don’t agree with that decision. It’s about when I started losing interest in QC in general. Yay was an interesting addition, but then they got neutered from their mysterious, amoral activities into just another Flanderized character. At this point, May is the only reason I still read it, and if she gets a personality makeover, I’m done with the comic.
Oh lord, she’s gonna turn into a redditor
Turn into? She’s been one for at least the past week of strips.
I reflexively tried to upvote this
Nah it’s cool, Sarah.
She’s snapped so she’ll probably suck a billion dicks soon enough, and she doesn’t believe in things that you don’t even have to wrap in a joke to sound dumb.
I’m not sure she is even at the point of sucking a single dick yet tho.
ESPECIALLY with her food weirdness.
You know what other bodily substance besides poop is homogeneous?
Blood.
Wait, is that what your balloon is filled with?
Sorry, I can’t tell you.
But I CAN show you:
https://m.imgur.com/a/tj3OShq
Of course! Drool!
Here’s another hint — it rhymes with “rum”.
Guargum!
Capsicum!
Sea trawlers’ chum!
The horrible stuff that comes from your bum…
Lighter than air, it’s
HELIUM!
Shark chum?
Yes Daniel. Shark chum.
I was really hoping for rum. 🙁
Joyce now adding Sarah to her ‘poopyhead’ list.
So far on the list: Walky, Joe, Becky, Sarah, Dina(?)
>Dina(?)
Dina’s on the special “I share a quality with HER? THAT can’t be right. (Make a face like food’s touching)” list.
Don’t let her on twitter, or start a youtube channel!
Doesn’t Joyce already have a youtube channel? She reviewed every Nachitos in one of the bonus strips, right?
Oh no.
She’s gonna become the next JonTron.
ECH
How about no.
I mean, it’s obviously not what I’d prefer. It’d be nice if she’d turn into the next Penny Parker.
She’s a cartoonist now. She can become the next DarkMatter2525.
Therrrre it is. The real problem is not how she believes now. It’s how she chooses to express it.
Yes, she’s supposed to keep all of this violent change in her belief structure inside until she’s ready to be polite about it and not hurt anybody’s feelings with sharp words.
Joyce is now very clear she doesn’t respect her best friend and thinks she’s a moron. You can be angry all you want but if that’s your starting position, you are in fact not her friend anymore.
Well… yeah? There’s no amount of feelings that justify harming people around you. Find a healthy and constructive form of expression, they exist.
Yeah! Like a webcomic!
Or an insanely blasphemous video game!
Got any deets why it’s blasphemous beyond the title art?
I’ve only played the original version, not Rebirth, but it seems to be the same story, so I’ll try:
It’s called the Binding of Isaac in reference to the biblical story about God daring Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac and then, after Isaac’s tied up on the altar, essentially says, “Nah, it’s cool, bro. Ta anyway.”
In the game, Isaac’s mom doesn’t get the latter message (though a bible does fall on her head in one of the endings).
It does have a number of other religious references, including occasional trades with devils, but at no point does it seem to actually overtly oppose religion. At least unless the mother’s assumed to be maybe delusional (seemed strongly implied) rather than following divine commands, I’d think it’s decidedly blasphemous than something like Bayonetta, which involves actually killing angels.
It takes more of a stand against the televangelist style of Christianity if you read into some of the symbolism with one of the bosses in the newest dlc being a manifestation of the televangelist broadcasts that brainwashed Isaac’s mother
Then…. Why aren’t you angry at Becky? Why aren’t you angry at Dotty? They both used their feelings about Joyce and DIRECTLY hurt her. Intentionally used words meant to hurt her. To her face. What is this… 2 ways thing going on here? Joyce ‘thought’ she was saying things in a private space. She gets to do that.
One of the things that scares me about this plotline is I don’t know if she does get to do that. This could be a super deep and intricate storyline plunging into the depths of why everyone thinks what they do, how the other characters being in their own ways not available for Joyce to talk to led her to isolating in her head until she was this dug in.
Instead of that, I’m worried this will just be the “Joyce Learns That Thinking Christians Are being Dumb Is Bad” storyline, that she’ll get the Karma Anvil, stop the Evil Thoughts, and then we all move on without addressing any of the other stuff.
I feel extremely confident we’re not in for the story of how Joyce learns not to be problematic, and it was these past two strips that clinched it for me.
‘Cause yeah when it was just Joyce vs. Becky you could read it as “Joyce is mean to her friend”, but with Sarah being, well, Sarah, that makes it more apparent to me that we’re going all in on the Feelmobile trip.
Joyce has been struggling with her faith for ten years of comics, ain’t no way that’s getting wrapped up in a neat bow where Joyce just learns she’s wrong and should shut up and accommodate her friends.
I am? Most everyone in this comic behaves in ways I consider very wrong a lot of the time. Joyce should never have spoken in that way, no matter who she thought was listening. Becky and Dorothy should have handled their responses much more gracefully as well.
I mean, yeah. You’re not allowed to lash out and hurt everyone around you just because you’re going through shit. An asshole with a reason is still an asshole.
At what point did Joyce intentionally try to hurt somebody? The only people that said something meant to hurt somebody on purpose here were Becky, Dotty and now Sarah.
Her feelings are valid, but her behavior is unacceptable.
This isnt a hard concept to grasp.
Also deciding the world is now ruined forever because there is no god and theres no point in trying to make it better is still allowing your religion/church/god to dictate what you do and how you act and treat others 🙂 I hope Joyce gets to that realization one day. Hopefully sooner than she went through this.
Aight hit me
What’s unacceptable about her behaviour?
Is it unacceptable to:
– say God is dumb because God was the fixture of your death cult upbringing and it’s all you’ve known
– be mad at your best friend after your first fight ever where both of you constantly talk past each other
– reaffirming confidence when your asshole roommate tells you that you should lose your job because of your hubris and so she can get off on it
Like, we’re seriously nailing Joyce this hard because she’s mean to Christianity? We’re so fucking worried about being polite we can’t even let a traumatized kid flip the bird at Jesus?
Why the fuck are so any of you worried about the moral purity of someone who doesn’t even exist?
The unacceptable bit is to assume everyone who believes in a god figure is “stupid” – this is as broad a generalization as “Anyone who doesn’t believe in god is a sinner/evil/trying to ruin the world”. How can you not see that her atheism is the same as her theism here? “If you’re not with me you’re against me” “Your viewpoint isn’t mine therefor its wrong” – all she has done has flipped which side of the coin she is on.
It’s also unacceptable to take your trauma out on your friends. Yes, she needs her friends right now but she is crossing multiple boundaries, and burning all her bridges through her BEHAVIOR, not her feelings.
It’s not she’s mean to Christianity, its that she is being mean to PEOPLE.
As for arguing about the moral purity of someone who doesn’t even exist, why do YOU care if we do that about someone who doesn’t exist? Yeesh. You seem to have a hard time with hypocrisy so I’ll end my responses here.
She gets to complain and say what she wants in private. Being overheard by her friend was not intentional. Her behavior isn’t even remotely atrocious, here. She was being kind when she tried to reassure her theist friend just a few days prior even though she doesn’t believe in that anymore.
I’ll have you know that having to do that is stressful. You basically have to deny your thoughts and feelings in order to make somebody feel better. Joyce has been trying and you all just… take it for granted.
You’re writing under the assumption I have never done that myself. I’ll be clear – I am at best agnostic, leaning atheist. I was raised Catholic. I am gay. You put the piece together.
Her complaints were not in private. Her complaints were in someone else’s room, with the door open. If she were complaining to just Sarah in their room, yeah maybe I’d be more sympathetic, but I don’t understand why we’re acting like she was in “private” – there were multiple people around her, several of whom warned her about her behavior before Becky and Dorothy even showed up.
Was she being kind? I don’t think Becky saw it as kindness, and Joyce herself seemed to do it more out of pity (“Aww, poor dumb Becky hasn’t figured out her mom is in the eternal void, I’ll humor her here”).
Joyce is lashing out like a wounded animal, and to a POINT it is understandable. But my specific issue is she has just flipped the script, but she is the exact same evangelical she was before – except now instead of trying to sing the praises of God she must ruin it for everyone. How many times she did try and get Dorothy to go to church? Or that her lack of religion was wrong? And now how many times has she tried to convince someone that it’s better to NOT believe in God? It’s like we’re seeing Joyce how she might have been pre-college really, but this time with the atheism flavor.
Well all that AND she’s being a big jerk about it, spouting all that “anyone who believes in a god is stupid” stuff. I need her to hurry up and learn the “faith and intelligence are not the same” lesson.
This was the reason why I’ve left so many atheism groups. The constant dumping on religious people regardless of how they actually treat people made a very toxic and not-fun environment.
Yeah, I mean the comments here weren’t ever “fun” but yeeessssh lately its just been a dumping ground of what I assume to be youngin’s trashing religion because they are falling for the same fallacies Joyce is.
Today’s strip is sponsored by HINT bottled water. (Irony? You decide.)
Trying to disprove the concept of a benevolent God, and claims that God is stupid. But she still won’t say “fuck”.
You know, believing in God and choosing not to swear dont have to go together, right? I didn’t swear until well into my twentys by which time Id concluded the world was so fucked up why was I even trying any more.
Yeah, but her objection to swearing is explicitly religious
Where did you get that from?
She’s holding out until she… you know… knows what she’s talking about.
ahhh, this reminds me when i was a 19 year old atheist. was kind of an asshole, just like joyce is being. hopefully she’ll turn a corner and start being her more optimistic cheerful self again
If she were being an asshole about it, she wouldn’t mind that she’s hurting people by saying things. She minds. I imagine that it’s hurting her that people are upset with her over it. It just… might not be time for her to stop venting and be quiet about the change going on inside her.
Instead of being judged and scolded she might need somebody with a little more maturity comforting her and nudging her into a more virtuous cycle.
She minds, but in a “why y’all booin’ me, I’m right!” way. That’s the part she’s got to grow past.
the first person i thought about is jocelyne funnily enough
Joyce still hasn’t spontaneously manifested a fedora so I think we’re still good.
It feels like the “still” is doing a lot of work in that sentence.
It should because I wrote it twice! Totally on purpose and not because I’m bad with words!
Twice was awkward. If you’d used “still” three times, it would have come out smooth.
…. I’m sure someone got that pun. Somewhere. Less sure they’re willing to admit it.
I assume it’s a whiskey joke.
Yup. Thought it was worth a shot.
Good thing that pun wasn’t wasted!
Yeah, but now Reltzik’s drunk on pun power.
your pun rocks.
Ah, another word where the ‘dis-‘ prefix is totally wasted.
Hopefully she’ll read the works of Karl Marx, and reckon that such direct action for that cause really isn’t necessary.
Unlikely, yes, but we can hope.
It would be nice if she reads the works of Karl Marx regardless.
READ, or UNDERSTAND?? That’s kind of the problem she’s in right now-she READ the bible, but she still doesn’t UNDERSTAND it-she’s realized what she was taught is bullshit, but only in that still-not-understanding way you get with true believers and recent converts, same way you see with people who READ Marx and Engels, but fail to UNDERSTAND what they’re reading (on both sides, no less, pro AND con.)
What’s a wrong way to read the Bible?
XD
The way Joyce’s mom does
Isn’t that saying that every act of positivity done by a devout person is true to the bible, and anything to the contrary is against it?
What does it mean to fail to understand scripture where the stuff that goes “hey this happened” gets defied by continued understanding of the Earth, and everything else is up to interpretation?
Is it not being disloyal to the bible if you defy its conventions we’ve deemed socially incapable of existing in the modern day? How do we decide which parts are the morals and which are just the parables from which to draw morals?
…oh, i thought you were joking.
listen, disagreeing with fundamentalists is easy. and they don’t care.
but regular christians interpret the scriptures. that there are righter and wronger ways of reading the bible is a very trivial fact to most christians, and they might either not care very much or, if they’re theologically minded, actually enjoy a good debate. believe it or not, they might even be open to having their mind changed about some things.
it’s completely puzzling to me that some atheists insist religious people are hypocritical for picking and choosing in the bible. it’s a text. of course you interpret it. some people refuse that ridiculously basic premise, but that doesn’t make all of the other believers fundamentalists by association.
Oh no, that’s not what I’m trying to get at.
Like you’re completely correct, there is no objective reading of a religious scripture and, inherently, it’s something down to interpretation.
Or to bring this back to DoA for a sec: Becky is completely right to shed parts of her literal reading of the bible whenever a fact contradicts it, because what really matters is her faith that God performs miracles in the name of his unending love for her.
What I was trying to convey is that, consequently, an immoral act committed by someone interpreting scripture is still a reading, even if it’s one that defies basic human rights and decency.
Like it’s less whether or not there’s a Good Reading that’s true to the bible, and more that they’re just Readings that can be Good and Bad.
Like here let me try it like this:
If the bible is intended as a strict guideline for morals/beliefs/truths, then there is a Good Reading of the bible, and it’s within the parameters of what it asks of you. If you wear mixed fabrics, the bible is telling you that you’re doing it wrong.
But if it’s something up to interpretation, which I think that’s what it is, then those interpretations are drawn from the individual and they find meaning in those interpretations. From there, they can be good or bad because those interpretations coming from individuals means individuals can bend, or be bent, by the meaning of the words and beliefs they are interpreting.
every individual and church and sect reads the bible differently and so derives different religious ethics based on the same text? is that what you’re saying? that’s what i’m saying. do we agree? i am a bit tipsy truth be told, i might be getting this sideways again.
i don’t feel confident enough to say which readings of the bible are good and which are bad, as i understand it’s an entire scholarly discipline.
now, people acting like garbage and citing the bible as justification get zero patience out of me, it’s like… that’s just irrelevant. keep your religion out of it, is my hot take. i’m not gonna start debating the bible just because they decided that’s the conversation we need to be having now. if your political values suck, i don’t care where you got them, they just suck
replied to first comment before reading your continuation.
…soooo yup? agreed? i’ve completely lost track tbh, i think i should go to bed x_x
I’m pretty sure we’re in agreement yeah, but I think my vague language is being unhelpful.
You know… I mentioned a while back that I thought this was all about the difference between Joyce and Becky’s relationship to their faith. But Joyce going full anti-theist is kind of obnoxious and hard to watch. Every time this strip promises to be really good character drams, I always end up a little let down.
Well, the good news is that Joyce has only attacked religion with words. Religion has had the audacity to attack her with men wielding bats, guns, verbal abuse and nuns.
Joyce being angry and lashing out is something that young people do. I imagine her internal feelings are a giant, roiling ball of rage, hurt, betrayal and uncertainty.
So, there are worse things that she could be doing than calling Religion a giant poopy-face in what she considered a safe space.
Joyce was attacked with a nun?
was the nun loaded? was it an assault-nun?
Aren’t we all?
People going after some atheists for criticizing religion never seem to care that religion has done far worse than just call things and people bad words.
We can multitask.
Some of us even are atheists.
Keulen, what you don’t seem to get, is that that’s how Religions treat other religions. It’s equal, in a way, since announcing you have all the answers to questions without any answers is every bit the same act of faith as promoting your invisible friend in the sky and his gaudy landscaping decisions and poor parenting choices.
Yeeeep this is very true. She’s still acting out religious tribalism.
Joyce’s current brand of atheism isn’t just that she doesn’t believe in God/Jesus anymore. She’s switched to fervently insisting she knows The Truth™️, and everyone else who doesn’t know The Truth™️ is stupid and dumb. She’s switched out the specific beliefs, but it REALLY really sounds the same as how religious people judge non-believers/other religions.
Which is why I hope she modifies her stance, or at least changes how she talks about it. Throw in a dose of WHY TRY BECAUSE THE WORLD SUCKS ANYWAY and she’s on a fast track to depression and other mental health issues. And I think that’s what Sarah’s reacting to in this strip, not that Joyce is an atheist.
Keep in mind I agree with her, I’m an atheist myself! But right now the way Joyce is talking about atheism still, at its core, sounds very religious. I don’t think she’s truly gotten to shake her religious upbringing yet, which is understandable but also… sad? I hope she gets help, like therapy. :C
This. Am an athiest married to a polythiest. Also, all these kids need therapy but many of them seem to think what’s offered on campus doesn’t really help… which checks out with what I remember of my previous university’s mental health support.
Okay but:
Joyce is only insisting she knows The Truth because Becky confronted her on it now, before she had any chance to form a cohesive web of new beliefs.
Like, it’s a pretty textual element to Joyce’s newfound lack of religion that Joyce has so little understanding of the world now that she thinks her personality is something her death cult created. She can say the penis word now because nothing she does matters, Heaven and Hell aren’t real.
But, she was starting. She’s just a monkey, and then Joe pat her on the head in an extremely manly and romantic way and granted her some while telling her that she could decide for herself what gave her meaning.
It’s a character drama series so obviously it’d never work out this way, if only because Joyce adapts to change the way the coastline does, but if Joyce got the chance to figure out that she was a monkey and other fun facts, do you think maybe she’d eventually be able to settle on a worldview that let her respect Becky saw things differently?
But now Becky, Dorothy and Sarah are forcing her to stand up for something she only barely believes in, because Joyce doesn’t have anything to believe in anymore at all. “I’m right” is just about the only thing she can hold onto, because these clowns made her grab it.
Oh, trust me, I care. I care a LOT.
I’m just also worried a lot of people are rude and unpleasant in their anti-religion in a way that doesn’t actually help anything…? I’ve seen it mentioned elsewhere before by activists that this is actually playing into religious leaders’ hands. They WANT the atheists to be loud obnoxious assholes, because it makes it easier to gather the frightened flock around them. Much easier to convince people to never leave their tiny town if they think, with some legitimacy, that the lawless heathen outsiders will just hurt them.
Not that that’s exactly fair – I think Joyce’s current anger at Christianity is totally warranted, and I share a lot of the frustration.
I agree with you Dandi Andi, I think the subtext of how Becky and Joyce practiced religion differently is still there but the more superficial conflict here is definitely a lot more overt
I feel like Joyce is only acting this way because Becky’s pissed at her. Doubljng down to save her pride. Mere hours ago she seemed uncertain when joking with Liz, like she was forming opinions mid mockery. I’m a little skeptical she’s really this passionate about atheism.
Being ashamed of something I’ve done or how I unintentionally hurt someone is hard. It’s much easier to talk about how right I continue to be!
Yep, seems like that’s about where Joyce is right now.
That makes a lot of sense.
OTOH I think she just *might* be that passionate about atheism, also. Or at least now that she’s tasted absolutist atheism, I can easily see her seeking out confirming opinions and getting absolutely high on righteousness – it’s one hell of a drug, and she has gotten hooked on it in childhood, so I’m sure her fairly long period of self-doubt has left her craving it pretty maddeningly.
I absolutely relate to the powerful attraction of a clean-cut, black-&-white, right-vs-wrong sort of ideology, esp. in one’s late teens/early 20s. I’m sure more balanced and healthy people didn’t go through that sort of phase but oh I sure did. It wasnt atheism for me, but it had a lot in common — rationalist, utilitarian, culturally marginalised, primarily online, politically radical (at least superficially). and for quite a few years, while I remained a generally measured and gentle person, you didn’t want to get me started on that one topic. I would get disgustingly high on being right, it was absolutely a power trip. And I think part of me needed that. The affirmation. The confidence.
Coming down off it a few years ago was a bit painful, but I feel stronger intellectually for having been, not so much wrong as… well, kind of a fundamentalist. And an asshole. An unshakable believer. What did shake me finally were not arguments, but people, and values, and aesthetics. What made me give it up wasn’t being proved wrong, because that was structurally not possible (utilitarianism, in the wrong hands, is a kind of faith), it was a nagging sense that I was missing out on richer, deeper conversations and connections.
100% what i was thinking too
I’m waiting for the interpretive dance part of Joyce’s production.
I’m hyped for the stand-up special myself!
I’m waiting for the HBO miniseries.
Look, I get it, Joyce isn’t in the headspace for stuff like that right now. And hey, if she was talking about how evolution is real and sexual purity was bullshit, I don’t think anyone would dispute it. But just ‘god is stupid and I’m gonna make sure everyone knows it’ is….oof. An unavoidable oof maybe given what she’s gone through, but this feels like it’ll get worse before it gets better.
It probably wouldn’t be unavoidable if Sarah didn’t fucking bring it up.
Yeah, Joyce just wanted to talk about her beliefs with a like-minded person, and now everyone’s treating her like an asshole for speaking her mind when she wasn’t even talking to them. Fuck this idea that the only good atheists are quiet ones, Joyce is right and she should say it.
Look, the lifelong emotional trauma that’s left a gaping void in Joyce’s perception of everything she once though of as unshakeable truths leading to a point where she had the first chance ever to get angry at growing up in a death cult in a private conversation with a sympathetic ear, getting interrupted by Becky being a wildly over-possessive weirdo stalking her through facebook so she could assert herself in the face of Joyce’s new friend hearing Joyce vocalizing that anger for the first time and immediately taking ownership of, having their first fight ever where the both of them spend all of it talking past each other, and then your big sis telling you that you deserve to get fired from your new job because your paying for your hubris will help big sis get off, none of that matters, okay?
Joyce is being problematic and shitty. She’s so unsympathetic. She’s not respecting her friend who told her that she’s an atheist as a result of a personal moral failing. It doesn’t natter how her closest friends are completely incapable of asking what the fuck is going on for even a second, she’s not considering their feelings enough so actually she doesn’t deserve sympathy. Inconveniencing someone with your emotional trauma makes you a toxic friend.
Maybe Joyce would be more likable if she smiled.
“Inconveniencing someone with your emotional trauma makes you a toxic friend”
…Exactly what you said, without being sarcastic? I think in this case, Joyce and Becky were both shitty to eachother. Becky might have violated Joyce’s boundaries by listening into that convo, but Joyce never apologized for *hurting becky*. She didn’t need to apologize for what she believes, her beliefs are totally unproblematic, except for the “all christians are idiots” one. But she probably should’ve at least _denied_ she thought becky was an idiot when given a chance, or apologized for ‘making fun of her behind her back’ instead of trying to reverse-convert her on the spot
Look I’m just gonna come at this honestly, I don’t know what to say when I write something as obviously morally repugnant as ““inconveniencing someone with your emotional trauma makes you a toxic friend” and then someone goes “yes that’s totally correct.”
It pretty easily translates to “treating your friends like garbage when you’re upset is wrong?” Like, I don’t think going to friends for support is bad, but even if it’s *forgivable* to treat someone like shit when you’re working through things, that doesn’t mean it’s *acceptable*
I don’t process my relationships on that kind of binary thinking.
This isn’t binary thinking DK. You’re not alone in realizing that just because someone is themself hurting, or has a valid reason for being angry, it doesn’t make it ok to be an abusive jerk to the people around them. Joyce and Becky are both needing to vent their anger somewhere, but clearly venting at each other was a big mistake.
<3
It’s not that the only good ones are the quiet ones it’s that the loud ones are just assholes. They act just as bad as Evangelicals. Literally the same. No one likes it.
Joyce just took her jesus training and turned it around but ITS THE SAME METHODS.
And good golly no one likes either direction. Same asshole, new message.
Yet people were willing to give her some leeway as a super-annoying Christian. Now they’re acting like it’s worse. At least now she doesn’t believe anyone is going to hell.
Joyce was always gonna be pissy regarding religion for a while, regardless of what Sarah said. That’s what I meant by ‘unavoidable’. She’s too traumatized not to be and we’ve known for a while that she processes that via anger. I get it and I’m not totally unsympathetic, but that doesn’t preclude her acting like a jerk. She’s not the only one, but them’s the breaks with complicated situations. Nobody’s entirely without fault or jerky actions and characters are both sympathetic and unsympathetic in different ways.
Joyce was definitely super pissy when she was confusedly bumbling around on what being an atheist means, when she found out she was a monkey, or when she got to verbally express some anger at all the bullshit she had gone through like a God who let her be sexually assaulted to teach her a lesson.
As she has every right to be. She’s not in a good place right now.
I’m saying she was not at all pissy in those instances and was processing normal human emotion that don’t need judgmental labels and things only went wildly wrong when her friends took ownership of her outraged reactions to their idiocy.
I wasn’t intending the use of ‘pissy’ to be a judgement on her. Feel free to sub the word ‘angry’, ‘bitter’ or even just ’emotional and upset’. Point is, she was never gonna feel GOOD about religion right now.
…Sarah didn’t bring it up. Sarah was talking about Joyce being so confident that she’d get the cartoon slot. It was Joyce who shifted things into “also god’s not real and this is proving me right so screw you Becky”.
Sarah was pretty clear that she was expecting a fall with all that pride. Her first line in the first panel of yesterday is “Oh. So you won?” where Joyce notes how pointed that “oh” is, that then segues into how Joyce should experience comeuppance because Sarah thinks it’s better than sex, and then in this strip, right here, Sarah goes off about Joyce’s behaviour again.
It’s almost as if Sarah was talking about Joyce the whole time, or something.
Oh, Sarah was 100% talking about Joyce the whole time.
But it wasn’t Sarah that brought up Joyce’s new “God can go fuck himself because he doesn’t exist that’s why he’s so awful” mindset, that was all Joyce.
What do you think would motivate Joyce to bring that up when Sarah is telling her, specifically, exactly, with no margin of error, that she deserves to be punished for how she acted today.
What could possibly motivate Joyce to dig her heels in on that.
Because Sarah seemed to just be talking about Joyce’s arrogance in how she’d totally win comic spot?
Sarah was talking about the comic stuff, Joyce uses that as a springboard into her dickbag interpretation of Atheism, Sarah expresses bitter regret about how much worse Joyce is right now. That’s how I’m reading the last two strips, at least.
Aight, if that’s how you wanna read it.
“Pride cometh before the fall” is a pretty core Abrahamic tenet. It’s arguably more important to modern Christianity than the whole “be good to each other” (at least, based on their publicly observed behaviour). Sarah is definitely aware enough to know that, especially because she knows she gets high on schadenfreude.
There is a reading of this then, where Sarah is the one who brings religion back into the discourse. And even if she didn’t mean to, Joyce would see it that way because of her biblical knowledge.
Saying that “pride cometh before the fall” is a concept of Abrahamic religion is like saying “murder is bad” is a concept of Abrahamic religion. Sure it’s in there, but it’s hardly EXCLUSIVE to them. Ancient Greek, Babylonian, etc myths are rife with it.
Sarah didn’t bring it up. Joyce did.
Well. Sarah speaks for me.
As she always does for me. AFAIR.
“I just liked how you wanted to make it better” is such a friggin’ loaded phrase because it gets to the core of why Sarah’s been a total douchebag these last two strips: the Joyce she constantly mocked and treated like a dumb child? Well she wants her back and Sarah’s convenience matters most.
Why Joyce is like this doesn’t matter, whether or not Joyce is comfortable with it doesn’t matter, and Sarah sure as fuck won’t do anything to help. Better stand off to the side and complain about it making snide moral judgments of Joyce.
Like.
Maybe Joyce being someone who “wanted to make the world a better place” means that Joyce not being that person in the immediate moment is something her big sis could help with, or at least help shape Joyce in what is clearly an emotionally turbulent time? Talk to her? Empathize? Do literally anything other than witness Joyce walk through the door in a good mood and tell her she deserves to suffer so you get off on it?
Nah, that’s effort and Joyce knows she cares deep down.
Sarah just wants her idiot fundie back.
I get similar vibes. I’m also not sure Joyce arc is actually analogous to either end of the angry atheist phenomenon. I used to watch quite a bit of that fad and I guess I saw alot of either shitty people and people that were venting.
Joyce somehow has the backstory of someone that is venting but the last few strips have her characterized as a superiority complex which doesn’t quite strike me as correct for someone that has seemingly been humbled several times over and was always written as naive over the more arrogant Christian types.
Sarah’s investment is just weird to. I don’t understand the snide comments or the investment in Becky but not so much that she’ll do anything other than vagaries?
Everyone just feels to suddenly be judgemental of Joyce and Joyce feels backwards written to justify it by breaking into mustache twirling.
Nah, Joyce ain’t mustache twirling.
Realtalk here, I legitimately have no doubt anymore that this story will not be “how Joyce learns to stop being a bad atheist.” I don’t think Joyce’s eventual realization that she never had faith and how that impacts her will end with the triumphant conclusion of “Joyce is nicer so Becky will stop being sad.”
‘Cause no one wants to remember this, I understand, it was a whole entire chapter ago, but Joyce was processing the whole “I am a monkey” thing pretty fine with Joe, who let her flail and screaming and run around in circles while offering his own feelings on how being a monkey is pretty liberating.
Like, wowzers, it’s as if this only went wrong when the three people Joyce loves more than anyone took ownership of her angry trauma response and told her to stop being so problematic.
“Nah, Joyce ain’t mustache twirling.”
I mean, Willis’s hovertext is literally mad scientist dialogue
Wait. I thought everyone talked that way when they couldn’t be overheard.
I just love twirling my moustache, is that so wrong??
Oooooo how I envy French mustaches.
Please, tell me what they’re like!
Zey are so waxy and smooss. You ‘ave not lived until you ‘ave ‘ad your privates tickled by a French moustache.
I choose to hear that in Inspector Clouseau’s voice.
I don’t think it’s a fair assessment that she never had faith but some of her actions at this point I could be wrong. I think it is unfair to say people who de-convert from a childhood faith never had faith because of the effort that usually goes into it even if it turns out to not be self sustaining in adulthood.
I’d agree with your assessment on her friends, it actually strikes me as strange that all of them are somehow in lockstep when I’d have expected some sort of mixed diplomacy from Dorothy and more understanding from Sarah considering she’s been witnessing most of the details more.
It’s beginning to feel more like a Joyce is wrong story and maybe this arc will press her to have Joe as her only social outlet which could be an interesting combo for a bit.
I don’t think people who deconvert had no faith. I had faith, however minuscule, when I deconverted.
But Joyce treated her religion where the fire-breathing dinosaurs on the ark were a textual fact of life. She was a Young Earth Creationist. All of that objective nonsense she believed and it all came crashing down at once because she assigned the same importance to all of it.
This is one of my pet peeves, when people tell me I never really believed and I goddamn well did believe. I invested a lot in Christianity and abandoning it cost me even more so they can go jump in the lake. Maybe one of those lava lakes.
Nobody has the right or position to tell you if you really believed or not.
As for her friends, well, I sortaaaa theorize this big ol’ drama bomb went down to reset Joyce’s status quo, and I do think some of that will involve more panel time with Joe and, I hope, Dina, since those two strike me as the most interesting characters for a “Joyce tries to understand atheism” plot. I know Dina hasn’t shown up yet at all for this, but that conversation’s gotta happen eventually and for much the same reason I think the whole ‘I’m just a monkey!” thing was the best place to start; it’s funnier with Joe because Dorothy would be too nice and understanding about it in a pleasant circumstance, and I feel the same about Dina.
The way I see it, Becky’s outraged, Dorothy’s a mom, and Sarah’s a grumpy pissgoblin, so once all three of them come down from their own immediate reactions they’re gonna need to process that. Becky’s pissed off at Joyce, how long is she going to do that? Dorothy waddled in and threw platitudes, is that going to mean anything to her when she realizes how deep this goes? Sarah’s being Sarah in a time where she needs to pick up the slack the way Joyce has for her, what’s going to happen now that she’s already messed that up?
It’s a chance to examine the main character’s relationships with her friends and how they’ve relied on Joyce being placed in a box that they don’t know how to handle her stepping out of. That’s too much to give up for Joyce being wrong at all her friends until she admits fault.
Sarah’s a misanthrope. You can’t really expect much from her. Yeah these strips highlight a shitty part of her personality but that’s kkind of what you get.
It is a bit unfair to say Sarah only wants what is covenient for her though. She’s warned and advised Joyce plenty today which is actually doing a lot for Sarah. Joyce just chose not to listen. And this sudden jaded atheist attitude is unhealthy.
…warned her on what? Don’t spend too much time with Liz?
Yeah that and basically calling her out on this attitude not being very authentic to who she is cause she wouldn’t act this way around her friends.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/goodenergy/
What we’re seeing now isn’t really who Joyce is. Maybe parts of it are as she rediscovers her idealogy but also she’s just kinda being a smug brat too.
Y’think maybe Joyce was able to act like this around Liz because being that open around Becky and Dorothy would prove to be difficult for some reason?
No, Sarah wants the person she admired back. She envied the strength she saw in Joyce to keep trying to improve no matter how fucked up things got. Sarah saw Joyce as a beacon of hope. A sign that not everyone was a bastard.
Maybe that Joyce could come back if Sarah expended even the slightest bit of emotional support in sitting down and at least attempting to listen to Joyce, whether that’s a sincere outpouring of feelings or just angrily going off on one at the moment like a burst valve, instead of being the world’s biggest douche with no friends.
I feel like this is an unfair characterization of Sarah. She’s done the emotional support thing, sometimes in her own ‘Sarah’ way and sometimes in the way you’re thinking of. In big moments and small ones – she’s usually one of the first to check in with Joyce and see what’s up when she’s acting strange. So while she’s not exactly batting a thousand right now, I don’t think it’s accurate to say she’s not emotionally supportive.
Sarah’s always been interesting in how she both is and isn’t more emotionally mature than Joyce. It feels weird to me that she seems to just be pressuring Joyce with this “apologize in the right way” kinda push.
I guess my presumption of Sarah would’ve been that she’d reprise her “tell Becky how you feel” and “be honest” bits from earlier which isn’t the same thing as apologizing as much as clarifying. I’d also kinda expect the conversation at this point to be “you know you’re risking this friendship permanently”.
It seems weird that she seems to be pushing apology early in the strip only for it to end with indifference. It kinda gives me whiplash.
It also could be that I’m just projecting too much into this arc. I presume Willis has had some form of de-conversion experience just based off his ability to reference Superbook so some of this probably is authentic. I just remember my own de-conversion growing up in a very forced religious environment and then my own views on the angry athiest community.
I just struggle to see Joyce as the smug archetype as much as the venting one. Most of the Smug Atheist types I saw went on to be anti feminist or whatever else and while the majority of venting types would do the angry breakdowns talk about their past and usually slowly moved to other content.
I only know the eventually moving to other things phase other than I still find some of my relationships held hostage by my old faith with some family that would only ever take my feelings as some form of personal assault.
It also could be that I’m just projecting too much into this arc. I presume Willis has had some form of de-conversion experience just based off his ability to reference Superbook so some of this probably is authentic. I just remember my own de-conversion growing up in a very forced religious environment and then my own views on the angry athiest community.
Joyce is autobiographical, yeah.
Definitely Willis’ own experiences.
Note the hovertext on this one:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/originalsin/
This, after this “oh” well screw you too Sarah
The alt text has me hoping that as long as she doesn’t go into monologues and mad scientist laughter, she’ll be okay.
By the way, Mike (rip but what if) was right.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/profane/
Gosh i miss Mike, he speed up so much that moping realization/call out for everybody
^^ Mike was always right.
Kinda wish Mike was still alive to drop more truth bombs like he did in that strip.
Happily, Willis never let being dead stop Mike from talking.
…yeah, this is kinda hard to read.
I can’t help but wonder if Joyce isn’t being the teensiest bit performative here. Like, I didn’t have a fundamentalist upbringing so I could be totally off-base, but over the years I’ve gotten the impression that fundies teach their kids that atheists are holier-than-thou pricks who are just angry at God for things that went wrong in their lives. Y’know, like that atheist professor guy from God’s Not Dead who’s mad at God because his mom died of cancer.
Joyce, to be clear, has very good reasons to be angry after everything that’s happened, but I wonder if fundamentalist stereotypes about atheists are on some level influencing her reaction to becoming an atheist.
Oh absolutely. It’s quite a bit like “Well this is the thing you all said it was bad to be, so I might as well become exactly that! Just to spite you for hurting me!”
And like. Honestly, valid? But also I kinda think this is just an inevitable kinda phase of de-conversion where spite is all you have to base anything on, until you actually form a new foundation for your own moral values and beliefs. So it’ll pass, and everyone is really genuinely being too damn hard on her for being angry for like literally ONE day.
She’s figuring shit out and being obnoxious about it, so what. Friend etiquette when you break up with someone is to pat them on the back and agree with everything they say about how awful their ex is, this is literally the same thing, only her ex is religion. It’s only something you gotta comment on about it being annoying when it goes on for like, weeks. Days, even, if we want to be cognizant of DoA Comic Time.
Friend etiquette when you break up with someone is to pat them on the back and agree with everything they say about how awful their ex is,
Love the analogy ^^
I do believe the situation gets a little more nuanced than this when you throw Becky into the mix… she’s not who Joyce is having a breakup with, at least …not yet >.<
Yeah, my take on it is more that she’s being a jerk through this, but that’s not really surprising under the circumstances. As milu said, it gets uglier when it spills over onto Becky.
But then I get into arguments with people claiming that Joyce is doing absolutely nothing wrong, and I suspect it’s easy for arguments against that to sound like I’m condemning her utterly.
Personally, I have a few issues with this being an inevitable phase because of my own experience of becoming an atheist. I’ve never thought people were idiots for believing in religion.
Yeah, Joyce isn’t completely deconverted yet, and she’s definitely trying a fake-it-till-you-make-it kind of approach because she literally knows no other way to fight back the rest of her brain that’s constantly lying to her.
Joyce has become Richard Dawkins
Very superficially. Dawkins comes at this from a very different place – as a scientist and an upper-class twit. Joyce never was either, Dawkins never was a fundie, and it all shows.
Pretty sure this is how people get cancelled, Joyce.
Nah, she isn’t a racist or transphobe.
Cancelled is just the hip way of saying ostracized. Ostracism has been an age old tactic of many a social circle. Christians have a long and storied history of ostracism (to the point of death, even) and it’s not exactly a new tactic.
Is there any social group that doesn’t practice ostracism in one form or another?
To some extent, that’s what social groups are. If you don’t push out the people who don’t conform, there are no boundaries and it’s not really a social group at all.
Well she was right it is sad.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/break/
Yeah. 🙁
“If I don’t, I’ll eventually just wall myself off and eventually be all alone.”
hrrm
One day, we will all have brain chips that record everything you say and repeat your most devastatingly prophetic lines back at you once you’ve gone and become your own worst nightmare.
It’s not scifi dystopia if it makes no sense other than produce sheer existential horror
Pass thanks. I already get stuck spending days and weeks in self-loathing over the mistakes I’ve made.
Not saying you’re wrong, just that I’ll dissassemble rather than participate.
Huh. Actually maybe I would stick around. I’ve not achieved anything so far despite the occassional strong desire.
yeah, i too am old friends with Darkness :/
be well.
Mood.
hehehe… “sometimes” 🤣
My brain already does that all by itself, thankyouverymuch.
(It likes throwing the occasional “embarrassing anecdote only you remember” rerun out there too…)
how is it worse exactly? because Joyce has creative interests now? because she’s exploring her faith (or lack thereof?)
I don’t see what Joyce is doing wrong that would deserve any sort of comeuppance
Specifically, it’s painting over ALL religious people with one big brush stroke, denouncing all of them as “stupid”.
Activism is OK, but there’s definitely a fine line between activism and woke-scolding, which Joyce has yet to reckon with.
I’m waiting for when Joyce clashes with religions other than Christianity.
Is she gonna tell Asma her religion is dumb now, too? Or Raidah?
Oh man… although she’s only intended to let loose her rage at religion around Joe and Sarah, I sure HOPE she shapes up in a way that DOESN’T involve showing this side of her around Asma.
The consequences of THAT would be absolutely CATASTROPHIC.
Yeah, I’m not sure Joyce would survive an Asma attack.
zing.
When she believed in God she was nice to people.
This Joyce? She is in a ‘trample on everyone that believes in God’ mode. So right now, she is being worse as she isn’t being very kind to the people around her. She knows a bunch of people in her hall believe in God.
Joyce isn’t trampling on other people. She’s trampling on herself. Specifically, she’s trampling on her old stuff. She’s upset at how stupid she was. She’s upset at how SHE believed all of this stuff.
Joyce is decompressing and it’s going to be messy.
Except Joyce flat out told Becky was stupid for believing in God.
She’s not talking about herself and is very clear she is not talking about herself. She has been 100% direct that she is talking about Becky and is upset Becky is not on the same page.
You can’t even say that she’s talking about both of them? That’s a very uncharitable reading.
She wasn’t taking about Becky until Becky showed up and made everything about her
More specifically, she was talking about herself and the things she believed in that she now recognizes as false, but the caveat there is that Joyce processed it all as objective facts, and assumed everyone else did.
Joyce can’t really insult Becky’s faith because Joyce doesn’t know what faith is. Becky saying “I believe in God” means exactly the same as “the Earth is 6000 years old.”
Yeah after THAT much repression, expression becomes less like a thermostat, and more like an on-off button.
She literally told Becky she’s an idiot. She literally made an ‘in your face’ comment about Becky in the prior strip. She literally intends to use her webcomic to express how believing in God is stupid which she is saying IN THIS STRIP.
I do believe it is partly to do with calling her prior self stupid, but she is doing it in a way that tramples on other people that are not herself as well. And they may just be collateral damage to her lashing out at herself. But as this comic has already pointed out before, it isn’t cool to turn people into collateral because you’re going through stuff or want to make someone else learn a lesson.
She didn’t, actually.
Not only did Becky ask “do you think I’m an idiot” and then there wasn’t an answer, as in Not Saying No is maybe sorta different than “literally telling Becky she’s an idiot” after Becky already told her that her apology was worthless, but then she called Becky smart enough to deconvert like she did.
(this is because Joyce doesn’t understand Becky’s faith much like how Becky didn’t understand Joyce’s adherence to rules, so right now Joyce isn’t capable of being nice about it)
If someone asks you “do you think I’m an idiot” and you start listing out the reasons you think their beliefs are stupid that is effectively a yes.
It certainly can be, probably less of one in a conversation where Joyce and Becky talked past the other the whole time. where Becky “is an idiot” because she believes the Earth is 6000 years old and that dinosaurs were on the ark (because that’s what it was to Joyce and both of them think the other processed it the way they did), and that Becky isn’t an idiot, she’s actually smart enough to deprogram the way Joyce has (in the same way that if I’m eating paint chips and you tell me not to, you hope that eventually I’ll be smart enough to stop).
Like, Becky’s only “an idiot” to Joyce because it’s all a lie but she keeps agreeing with it, the way Joyce is a failed as a Christian because she based her faith (that never existed) on being better than you.
I mean Becky doesn’t believe in any of that. Joyce knows she doesn’t. She still believes that means Becky is an idiot because apparently all of it must be true or none of it.
“She still believes that means Becky is an idiot because apparently all of it must be true or none of it.”
Hoss, that’s actually how Joyce was taught to think.
The other people are just collateral damage.
This is fucking definitely not true. You’re saying this about the girl that said Roz was going to suffer in hell for eternity for having sex and that kept trashtalking Walky to Dorothy so they’d break up and she could have more Dorothy time.
Joyce wasn’t nice, she was an asshole, except she was POLITE about it. Your current objection to Joyce is the objection a bunch of Republicans have with Trump – “gosh, he’s saying the quiet part out loud”.
(of course, this is also the only objection many Democrats had with the Trump, which is why the Biden administration can outright murder ten innocent civilians, go “too bad, so sorry, we’d definitely do it again, consequences? for us? lol, haha, no” and every fucking shitstain goes “my god, so presidential”)
I can excuse the slut shaming, I can excuse the part where she dated Ethan to make him straight, but I draw the line at rude language.
See, you’re being snarky, but that position taken unironically is incredibly common.
See also: fiction about people murdering each other is a-ok, but heavens FORBID there’s a female-presenting nipple.
I too process my investment in fiction on a scale of Wholesome to Problematic.
Going on an emotional journey with the cast and getting in their heads is extremely cringe and secondary to making rapidfire moral judgments of their actions in real-time.
No, I mean the nipple in the fiction. Not “fiction about violent murders and real-life nipples” but “fiction which has both violent murders and nipples, but somehow the nipples are very problematic and WON’T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN”.
I will never be able to comprehend the mental gymnastics required to be legitimately scandalised by a nipple. But yeah, a dude gets sawed in half in front of his screaming kids and it’s somehow A Family Picture.
People are silly as hell, sometimes.
(about three days after Biden’s inauguration he was already bombing the Middle East, and, I shit you not, there were fuckwits unironically going “he’s bombing people and not tweeting about it, finally a president I can be proud of”)
I think what people might be missing here is that Sarah’s not 100% a cynical misanthrope.
I mean, she absolutely are those things. Duh. But no one is one thing all the time. We contain multitudes. With Sarah… yeah, she was a cynical ass who takes a bitter pleasure in seeing the fall cometh to the prideful.
But there’s a part of her that enjoyed Joyce’s hopeful idealism. She thinks Joyce is dumb and wrong and childish, sure, absolutely… but there’s a core part of her that wanted Joyce to prove her wrong. It’s why she’s so often slipped into the big sister role for Joyce, because that kind of optimism can be just as infectious and seductive as painful cynicism.
Because… well, it would be so much better if they were right, wouldn’t it? Don’t get your hopes up, sure… but maybe this time…
That’s why she’s so morose here. She was right. Huzzah. Cynicism confirmed. Exactly what she expected, and not at all what she wanted.
I love your reading! It makes heaps of sense.
Yup. See Vukodlak’s link above.
“I’ll be sad when this world breaks you.”
These comments, y’all. They make me sad.
What we’re seeing from Joyce is a trauma response. She’s had her entire worldview, one she’s been immersed in since she was a child, completely shattered; things she thought were absolute, inviolable truths — including her parents’ marriage — have vanished like smoke. Wouldn’t you be angry? Wouldn’t you feel like you’ve been lied to since you were born?
Why is she being such a buttlord about it? Because she’s very, very good at not processing her own trauma, and this is all a deflection from the very real trauma of what might, to her at least, look like a genuine split with her childhood best friend. She’s lashing out.
I grew up in a fundie environment not dissimilar to Joyce’s, though hers was worse. I know what this is, I know what she’s going through, and I know that her bad behavior is because she’s hurting. Comparing her to the kind of edgy, privileged Youtube Atheist who rails against the possibility that they might, at the end of their lives, face one single consequence, is unfair and even a little mean-spirited. Why do trauma survivors have to be soft and quiet and weepy to deserve empathy? Is it because they’re less obtrusive and inconvenient that way?
I only wish someone had been there to walk me through my own trauma, to take me aside and ask “Hey fam, are you okay? You’ve been acting pretty uncharacteristically lately, is there something going on?”
Shit, I’m almost 40 and that’s still rare. And threads like this just remind me of that fact.
Damn right.
Just because we understand Joyce’s trauma doesn’t mean we can’t hope she’d be processing it better.
The path Joyce is taking is going to hurt people. Not if, it will. Heck, it’s already hurt Becky. And regardless of how understandable the process is, it’s not going to take away the pain she’s going to inflict.
“Hoping she’d process it better” is…REALLY condescending, ngl. With absolutely ZERO help or support from her peers? Nothing but derision? Like come on, people.
Well sorry she doesn’t have the kind of healthy coping mechanisms you’d expect for a home-schooled ex-fundamentalist who’d been through multiple traumatic experiences including a kidnapping, culminating in the apparent death of a classmate and her seemingly-inseparable parents divorcing.
Thanks for proving my point about which trauma victims get empathy and which ones don’t.
Remember that the people you’re judging (aside from other readers, I mean the characters here) were also kidnapped and nearly murdered, had Mike to deal with, so separating people into “trauma victims” and not-trauma-victims isn’t quite as clearcut as all that.
Nah it’s pretty clear cut.
Walky wasn’t even traumatized when he was actually in the process of being kidnapped. No one cared. They freed themselves and then they had to go take a fucking math test.
What part of Joyce’s trauma at her religious upbringing factors into these clowns?
You know when you were saying “this isn’t a ‘don’t @ me’?” Kindly don’t @ me. There’s plenty of “I identify with this character, if you don’t respect the character how dare you insult me so!” going on without adding to it. “Clowns.” Listen to yourself.
Also “going off to take a math test” is a pretty good depiction of psychological shock.
So you think Night Guy’s superpower being refusing to be traumatized isn’t a clear sign that Walky’s traumatized and in denial about it?
As in Walky’s friends were stabbing the guys who abducted them with forks after watching a dude get beaten to death with a hammer, and then he’s standing there with Ethan describing how his ass is like a softball.
Yeah, he was deflecting. He does that a lot. Doesn’t mean he’s not affected.
I’m saying I don’t think the actual real life traumatic act of being kidnapped and watching a dude get murdered in front of your eyes really carried forward with the cast, and it was more of an explosive action-oriented story to wrap up the League of Evil Dads.
Like, I don’t wonder why Lois Lane doesn’t have PTSD from all the times she got dropped off a building.
Didn’t we just come off a series of strips where he deflects his feelings towards losing the comic gig with a “bullet dodged” comment only to have it immediately revealed that it affected him way more then he let on
Like masking his real feelings is kind of Walky’s whole thing
Eh, my reading is the events have been treated pretty seriously in universe in the aftermath.
Okay but we know that was emotionally devastating to Walky because the comic gave some weight to it.
Moreover, it’s not like being kidnapped and watching a dude get murdered with a hammer should be traumatizing to just Walky, it should fuck with all of them, and it sure as hell didn’t.
Like, have Dorothy and Sarah, since the timeskip, ever gone “wow jeez that was fucked up”? Because Sarah’s commentary was Liz joking that she should tell her professor she got kidnapped again to justify missing class before saying she doesn’t have to clarify at all because it’s college.
To be clear if we eventually get to a point where we found out the cast all had to go through therapy for it during the timeskip or something, that counts even if it doesn’t get dealt with on-panel. Mike’s death over the timeskip was similarly for the reason of letting the cast grieve, just not for years on end.
But whenever the dramatic fallout from the kidnapping creeps in, it’s stuff like Mike’s death or Ross’ death, not the part about being tied up in a basement by a man in a Halloween costume.
Dorothy went to therapy after watching Ryan being stabbed, I’m pretty sure. Being kidnapped and watching a murder seems orders of magnitude worse, and even if that somehow didn’t affect anyone, they still all lost a member of their friend group. They probably haven’t said “wow that was fucked up” specifically because of the time jump; it’s likely a conversation that happened within a few days of the accident.
I think that happened? I remember Dorothy being pretty fucked up about it, like wigging the hell out watching Amber cut him up with his own knife, and I know Dorothy sees a counselor on the reg anyway.
But what I’m trying to get at is that Dorothy’s horrified reaction and dulled emotional response the next chapter until she eventually let it out with Amber was there for me to contextualize it all in a way that I don’t have for the kidnapping, so I can’t draw a conclusion on their emotional reaction because the story never showed, hinted or inferred at one existing.
Mike dying yeah, that’s definitely fucked Walky up, and we can easily read that into his character, but no one talks about the kidnapping itself, if we’re coming at this from “how did this work out for them in-universe?”, probably because they got counseling and moved on and we just never saw it so we didn’t see them all with thousand yard stares for a few chapters.
She hasn’t been given a chance to process it better, maybe she would have had Becky not tracked her down for the crime of doing something and not involving her, thus forcing her into a position where she feels she has to be defensive of her newfound beliefs
Yeah! Joyce why can’t you process your intense trauma, and current massive grief of your parents divorce in a POLITER, quieter way as to not upset anyone else? Geeze so inconsiderate with those eratic, troublesome feelings.
Seriously. The fact that none of her supposed friends haven’t tried to sincerely talk to her about what’s going on is *infuriating*. (Becky is excused, obviously. But everyone else.)
And Sarah here is being openly hypocritical here. Her whole personality is centered around being a misanthropic curmudgeon, but suddenly Joyce is having a hard time and lashing out and suddenly Sarah has Opinions on what kind of person Joyce is allowed to be? Eff that.
Situations like this are really good for seeing who your real friends are: the ones who call you in, instead of just calling you out. And I can tell you there’s a lot of folk in this thread who wouldn’t pass that test either.
You are an incredibly self-righteous and hypocritical person. Please don’t be my friend.
Someone disagreeing with you doesn’t make them hypocritical. Loudly telling them that they’re not worthy of being your friend when they never asked is kinna self-righteous though. The personal attack was uncalled for and accomplishes nothing.
That’s okay, I had no plans to! 🙂
eyy fuck you too buddy
I’d guess a lot of the YouTube atheists are also angry ex-believers.
Yes, and? Why are we comparing Joyce to a collective of openly racist, homophobic and misogynist shitlords who use their atheism and fixation on “logic” as an excuse to be openly racist, homophobic and misogynist? Did nobody google “false equivalence?”
Note to self: trauma responses that hurt people are totally okay and I should condone them because it’s empathetic to support hurt people hurting others.
Also, please remember that Sarah is the child of divorced parents, and has an explicit policy of burning bridges with people rather than being some kind of supportive. That is literally her backstory. (This is also a description of Joe, incidentally.) Actually having a relationship with Joyce is against her better judgement and she’s being proven right despite softening her stance through exposure to Joyce.
I’m not sure what the intention of your second paragraph is. Is it justifying that Sarah has had trauma in her life and developed a coping mechanism based on avoidance, and that’s understandable even though it hurts others? Or are you just explaining why it’s not out of character that Sarah is hurting people? Because I don’t see June saying Sarah is acting out of character, so I don’t see why you feel the need to remind them.
That’s a whole lot of not what I said but go off
What we say is often at odds with what people want us to have said, so that they can shout at the worst possible version of us.
Not taking a side here, just casually dropping a reminder.
Dang it’s wack how Sarah’s history driving her to act the way she is now super valid and respected but Joyce’s totally isn’t, even when Joyce is acting the way she is now thanks to her friends taking ownership of her trauma.
Crazy how nature do that.
Yeah, Joyce is going through a lot right now. That said, people don’t have to like her ‘acting like a buttlord’ as you put it. Her trauma is valid, but her trauma response can still hurt people and be jerky. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t deserve compassion for what she’s gone through but it also doesn’t mean people have to be fond of the way she’s acting at the moment. I’m referring specifically to the comment section, not the characters in verse. I’d imagine right now that the reason Dorothy hasn’t talked to her is because of the context she saw all this in and the fallout for it. Dorothy is also allowed to not have perfect responses to everything. I’m hoping we’ll see the kind of talk you want in a day or two – mind you, in strip time, that could still be quite a while.
Basically this. She’s acting like a buttlord for understandable and even sympathetic reasons, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t acting like a buttlord. We can both condemn the buttlord part and sympathize with the reasons. It seems like some in the comments don’t accept that and double down on either the “she’s doing nothing wrong/it’s fine because trauma” side or the “she’s turned into a monster” side.
Which is frankly what the commentariat tends to do in any nuanced situation, which always surprises me, since this comic is basically all about nuanced situations without clear villains, at least when the main cast comes into conflict – obviously there are outside clear villains. Mostly Dads.
Yeah @june gloom, that was very well put.
I understand the characters not reacting in an ideal way though, for exactly the reason you’ve pointed out: some trauma responses get sympathy, others not so much. If only because they’re legitimately hard to process as such. To all the world, certainly to Sarah, it would appear as though Joyce is just pleased as punch with herself right now, and far from needing any support, could use a reality check. Unfair as that is, it’s ultimately on Joyce to do the work of articulating what she’s going through in a way that gives people around her a fighting chance of understanding that she needs their support. Anyway, I do think Sarah and Dorothy both are reacting so strongly and uncharitably because of what went down with Becky, not the Sudden Atheism itself.
In all this i wish Joyce had someone to talk to who might have gone through some of the same stuff and has had time to process it and gain a modicum of chill and detachment about it… An older sibling perhaps? *fingers white from being crossed way too hard*
(I say its “on Joyce”. OK that’s a bit offputting. I dont even like that sort of phrasing and morally try to avoid them. I mean it would give her more agency here if she knew to do that.
But no, you’re right, it’s “on” her friends too. My point is more to how predictable Sarah & Dorothy’s response is, and I hope they try harder to empathise with J rather than going on their gut response. I guess I wanted to say that learning to express what you need is empowering and empowers others to act in a way that benefits you, but that’s the sort of self-help mantra that is more damaging (victim-blamey) than helpful in the midst of things. Anyway)
*normally not morally
That’s been frustrating me about some of these comment threads too. If you’re processing trauma, somehow you have to do that without pissing off your friends. “Yes, your religion and family betrayed and traumatized you, but don’t yell at your mother, young lady!”
Geez, somebody recognize that she is hurting! She doesn’t have the capacity to be polite to everyone because she’s still in the middle of that emotionally “fight or flight” stage. Her brain can’t take in rational conversation right now.
I wish she (and Willis) and every other person processing this kind of trauma had the friends/resources to recognize this and the support them. Be #TraumaInformed
Yeah, like, I’ll be honest, that’s probably why I’ve been so… deep in this?
I recognize most of this is probably the result of complex opinions on managing difficult aspects of human relationships getting explained in ways that don’t necessarily capture every nuance the person saying it holds to, because it’s the comment section of a webcomic and most people don’t write a eight million words a day here like a certain someone*, but the very broad way these thought processes are getting conveyed is, well it’s something I find particularly irksome, because it strikes me as a topic that can’t be summed up in a phrase.
If I sat down for like 20 minutes with anyone I’ve been arguing about this with here, I’d probably come to a greater understanding of what they mean, but trying to convey all of that here all at once is probably really difficult.
*its me im the someone
I’ve had the feeling you were taking some of this very personally, and been concerned about that. Wasn’t sure it was my place to say anything, though.
Yeah sure, I still feel confident in what I’ve been saying.
If I’m taking it that personally, it’s because it’s personal to me.
Joe doesn’t understand the repressed sexual fury that’s coming his way but I hope he’s respectful because *gestures wildly* Joyce.
It looks like everyone is going to push her away and right at him as the person who has been the MOST understanding with her lately. I just hope that she isn’t trying to spite her old beliefs and jump into sex as a revenge on them. That’s a whole messy spiral.
Joe will very likely shoot that down anyway.
Where were you when Joe became Joyce’s best friend
Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell?
Further west.
Ooh yeah! Looking forward to that interaction
Honestly, I get Sarah. I don’t think anyone wants Joyce to pretend to be something she’s not anymore, even Becky who just maybe needed more time to process this change.
However, by timeline standards, literally the night before, Joyce went from being comforting on the anniversary of the death of Becky’s mother to giving not a damn to how Becky feels at all. And that is not fundamentally how Joyce has been portrayed, the cause for this trauma has been because of how much she cares for Becky so it’s weirdly callous. I imagine it’s definitely weird to those around her. I don’t blame Sarah for thinking maybe naive optimism is perhaps better than trampling everyone around you.
Joyce doesn’t owe anyone anything but, yea, within a few hours, she’s evolved into literally bringing up atheism every time she speaks now in every conversation and how her mission in life is to debunk everything she used to believe. Generally people don’t handle sudden seismic shifts like that well. Sarah and Dorothy haven’t been as tactful as they could be but who HAS been?
Joyce is now angry that Becky doesn’t fit in a box.
Becky has ISSUES with being put in a box.
Pretty ironic considering Becky has no problem putting Joyce in a box
Joyce didn’t bring it up till Sarah said she deserved to be punished for her hubris so Sarah could get off on it.
So in celebration of everyone definitely agreeing and totally getting along about her character development, I drew a li’l chibi Joyce:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FC7AQy0WQAIIiVW?format=png&name=small
I think at least we can all agree she’s an inherently good kid who’s going through a rough patch right now, despite her present behavior being, well, debatable.
This is small and cute and good. I love it and I want one for my house.
So adorable!
Did you draw this by hand?
I drew it on the computer, haha. Which I haven’t actually done in a while, hence the lines being a bit ragged.
This is A+.
Gah *0*
is adorable
yu awesome
Awesome, adorable, correct, perfecto
This is an adorable balm on my soul
The frustration of watching your friends turn on you the second you stop being the person they all mocked and looked down on. Sure they all love Joyce but it’s unfair to dismiss how condescending they can be, and while their reasons make sense, it also makes sense for Joyce to want to scream and rage.
Joyce is definitely being performative here, last panel is displaying her weakest anger.
*sigh*
This freedom of being out of the closet is going to Joyce’s head. It’s understandable, Becky went pretty wild when she came out too, but this is not a healthy way of expressing that euphoria.
I think Dorothy needs to sit Joyce down and have a talk with her.
Or maybe Mike’s ghost, as channeled by Amber.
“… kinda like the minor key reprisal of how Becky came out.”
*reprise
…. you sure? I’d have thought it would be a major key. E or F, maybe.
Joyce isn’t going to listen to Dorothy, either. Honestly, she’s so grumpy she’s not gonna listen to many people.
Her best bet might actually be someone she doesn’t like but will still respect. Roz or something.
…
I don’t like this Joyce…
I do. I love that she’s getting to say all of the things that have been banging around her head. I don’t want any of my friends to feel stifled into being polite about their changes.
The problem isn’t that she’s free to fully express herself. No one has any problem with that.
The problem isn’t even that she’s changed. People change, we all get that.
The problem is that she’s acting like an asshole here.
No but you don’t get it, she’s free and it’s all because of trauma anyway so it’s totally cool and good actually that shes acting like a massive asshole bc it’s stupid that the only “””good””” atheists are the ones that show basic respect for others
Why’s Joyce gotta be worried about being a good atheist at the moment when she has twice now, once today, proven incapable of even calling herself an atheist?
Why do you people only care about whether or not a character is being nice or mean and not anything that’s making it happen?
Cuz, idk, i don’t really care about people’s motivations when someone gets hurt. Impact over intent and all that. I’m not mad about Joyce’s character development or anything, I think this is interesting and I’m curious where it’s gonna go from here, how this arc is gonna be resolved and all that. But yeah, Joyce is being an asshole is a fact right now and i don’t think she’s entitled to other people wanting to delve into that. Esp since this is a college dorm, none of them are gonna have the best response.
I get having a trauma response, i have trauma (religious and non), everyone has trauma. I just hate when people try to use their bad experiences as a shield to hide behind while treating others poorly. Which isn’t what Joyce is doing, but it is what a lot of commenters (especially those few of a reddit seeming variety) are doing for her
It feels super goddamn weird to me to care so little about why someone is lashing out in the face of pain and trauma that their humanity just goes away until they sort it out.
Especially when being an asshole something no one can here can quantify beyond “Joyce is being mean to Christianity and her friend she had a fight with.”
Right? Like, “don’t talk to me until you’ve sorted out those uncomfortable angry feelings.” I mean, I get that from both sides. Nobody likes being dumped on when someone is in a rage. Joyce needs a safe place to vent and process. But until she and other recognize that, it’s probably her friends getting the brunt of it. If she were all weepy (as someone said above), would they be more sympathetic? Easier to deal with?
I think even if she was focusing her anger on her specific church, her friends would be a lot more sympathetic.
But yes in general, people are more sympathetic to signs we perceive as pain – like crying, than to anger, even when that anger is coming from pain. Especially when that anger is directed at them or can be seen as directed at them, since it’s cast widely enough.
That’s weird that Joyce needs to put conditions on her anger, especially when she already was and then Becky forced it out.
(To start, Carla’s a pretty neat gravitar, definitely high up in my list, and hell yes trans rights and self representation (even if I’m not a fraction as cocksure as her))
All in all I think Joyce is in a pretty rough situation this storyline, and had no good way of getting through it without this rocky road. She has nobody safe to talk to about her feelings of loss of faith nearby to help her get over her self righetousness. Becky’s doesn’t think negatively of atheists themselves, but she’s always had a streak of atheistphobia. And the way Sarah and Dorothy reacted to the opening incident proves they were Not Safe to open up to about this. Because remember, whatever kind of buttface Joyce strolls around after this, these reactions from these people were ‘only’ to overhearing some thoughts Joyce wanted to keep private from them.
Sarah turning vitriolic and perhaps unloading a lot of her hostile feelings about Liz (warranted or otherwise) onto Joyce who is suddenly a good proxy, and Dorothy turning disappointed in a way that’s only happened with the Ethan relationship, which means she thinks “having the private thought being christian is dumb” is on par in badness with “homophobic relationship”.
Sure, one could say that if Joyce talked to them about it quietly and in private and politely they might have been up for a more sympathetic and well flowing conversation. But given how incredibly hostile they are to Joyce showing any anger at her upbringing here, she’d always have to walk on eggshells during those conversations.
I fully expect Joyce’s mindset to warp around to a more healthy one as this plotline wraps up, and look forward to it. I just know that it will need somebody who isn’t Becky, Sarah, or Dorothy to help her.
Hypocrisy, thy name is Joyce. She needs a chill pill.
She’s hypocritical here? Sarah has been a little angry curmudgeon for a long time and she’s gotten away with saying things and being in a way that people could have rightly shunned her for. JOYCE stuck with her and loved her and was kind and accepting of all her grumpiness even when SHE was hurting.
Now that Joyce has her turn being grumpy for a few days she’s getting attacked on all sides. Even in her grumpiness she’s not being vicious. The things people have said to HER have been vicious. They’ve said things that have been INTENDED to HURT her.
That everybody is dogpiling on Joyce right now is a little absurd.
Hypocrisy thy name is also Sarah. Yes, the shtick is to keep people away by being a grump. But if you like someone because they take on an emotional workload you refuse to do? If you liked her because she worked towards making the world a better place? Than do some lifting yourself to make it suck less too. It’s not up to Joyce to keep shouldering the happy meter just because people got used to it.
Things getting worse. I’m sure Sarah is happy she turned out to be right
I mean, the read I get isn’t even about Joyce it’s that it’s worse for Sarzh because she wanted someone to do a positive emotional work load that even she wouldn’t do. I get you’re read and agree with you, just elaborating… also… sarah… Joyce gave you halloween even during having an epiphany her parents were against Halloween because she loved you. Maybe show love back in ways other than hitting someone with a baseball bat. (although I’ve been told by sibling groups complaining about the worst traits is how you show love? I am but an effectively only child)
Something that’s been bothering me these past couple strips
Sarah is saying Joyce deserves comeuppance now, but I recall at the time she offered no pushback towards the stuff Joyce was saying
Joyce makes an easy target, apparently. Looks like everyone is going to push her until she either comes back to the fold, apologizes or goes to the people who haven’t demanded she behave and toe the line.
Long story short; Joyce has faced some unprecedented trauma and she’s changing as a person. Change can be uncomfortable. This is going to be uncomfortable.
I guess maybe it’s the reaction to getting ‘caught’ and how Becky is hurt and Joyce is doubling down that Sarah might have issue with then actually saying the things?
Like Sarah did feel bad briefly about talking smack about Joyce to Jacob too granted too so maybe she’s also basing some feelings on that too.
Sarah has explicitly said that she enjoys a good “I told you so.”
She gives people rope to hang themselves with.
Sarah, are you not entertained?
I just don’t understand why none of Joyce’s friends are willing to just listen to her. That’s what friends do, provide a sympathetic ear. That’s literally all you have to do, just shut your mouth and let her vent for a bit, then go back to your life. THAT’S IT!!!! You were able to do that whenever she’d go on about Jesus or whatever, and you can’t do that now???
Becky deserves someone who will do that for her too, btw! Multiple someone’s! (I’m gonna HOPE it’s maybe Dina, but who knows, it’ll probably be Robin at this point.)
Also I hope Joe takes this as the moment to go and be that friend for her since not a single other person is willing to be there for her, apparently. He’s already proven to be pretty good at it thus far, despite his insistence that he isn’t.
It’d be in character for Dorothy, but out of her entire circle of friends, that’s literally the only person I can think of.
Whaddya want, Becky? Walky, Dina, Lucy, Jennifer, Amber? Sal, maaaybe.
I don’t know why you expect Joe to do any better. He might, but do remember this is the guy who complains, loudly and aggressively, every time Danny brings up feelings. You know. His best friend from childhood.
I actually think Sal is probably a good choice and likely to at least lend Joyce an ear
After all I feel like out of all the characters she can empathize the most with rebelling against your upbringing
It’d help that she’d probably be willing to explain exactly what’s wrong with Joyce’s current attitude rather then just imply she’s a bad person
In defense of Joe: he complains, but ultimately he’s willing. Even the worst thing he’s said to Danny’s quest to talk about feelings was just a super-blunt request for information about what flavor of supportive he needs to be. That Danny heard a refusal to engage is not entirely accidental, but Joe steps up at need. If Joyce needs, he will.
Joe also literally already helped Joyce process some feelings about her religion a few days ago in-universe? And literally yesterday he was going around absolutely manic and BEGGING Joyce to talk to him about her feelings, and then had a good conversation with her that made her feel better? And even last semester, he was happy to have Joyce vent to him about stuff over text like, for a whole weekend.
If I had to think about it, and I do, it’s related to Joe and Joyce, I figure he was quiet in his room because the drama had boiled over and Dorothy and Sarah were there, meaning they’d take care of it and he could be Shallow Friend.
Which… he might be getting a promotion soon.
Joe does nice things now.
Joe was the one she talked to when she returned home with Becky, was the one who talked her about divorced parents, the one she texted for grounding and realness even after their horrific date. It’s why she angrily says He Cares when telling him to go check on Amber
Sarah tbf when Joyce wanted to ‘make the world a better place’ she did shit like try to make a gay guy straight. Sure there was a lot of selfish desires wrapped up in that but…
Yeah. Like how Christian!Joyce defined a better world or how she was raised to think of as a better world was probably a mess? Like some good things buried under a pile of bad ones she had yet to come to terms with.
I like this take. I think it’d be worth it for Joyce to dig through and figure that kind of thing out.
Yeah, I mean that’s kind of what Becky was saying to her (in an angry and hurt way) when they were fighting, that she though Joyce’s faith was deeper than the BS stuff
Poor Joyce. She just wants to be free to say what she wants and believe. But everyone she knows and were her friends is telling her that they don’t like listening to her now. Joyce has the right to change, even for the worse. After all, right now it’s her anger talking for her and this usually subsides over time. Sarah, let her be mad at the world and don’t judge her!
“You can’t get people to like you. You just have to wait for hating you to bore them.”
— Beth Sanchez
Her changing is fine, it’s just that she’s currently changing into (or already being) an obnoxious person that many people will (or should) not want to be friends with. Joyce certainly has the right to change, but everyone else has the right to stop being friends if she does decide to change like that. (At least until she does get it out of her system and falls back into a more healthy personality).
It’s not about her switch to atheism, it’s about her personality switch from ‘nice person’ to ‘endless hate fountain’.
Sarah seems to be making an effort to point that out here, and hopefully steer her back on a healthier course where they can still be friends.
Joyce was in a pretty good mood celebrating her job until Sarah told her she should suffer for her hubris by being fired. She wasn’t throwing her unwarranted hot takes at Daisy.
Like.
Could that be relevant? Could it perhaps matter that Joyce has twice acted like this because Sarah goes “ugh, you don’t really care”?
I mean, sure she has a right to change for the worse. She doesn’t have a right to people being okay with it or friends enabling it
Is it just me or does it feel like Joyce being obnoxious about her recent deconversion is getting more hate from Sarah than that time she, uh, tried to date Ethan into straightness?
It’s not just you.
I think the comments section was giving Joyce the benefit of the doubt on account of her being brianwashed into believing those things, and little opportunity to draw new conclusions from experience. Apparently they expect more / something different from her now.
Also, as I recall, Ethan was explicitly into it at the time. So while that situation was all kinds of messed up, it’s hard to say exactly who she was directly hurting.
Joyce was more of the mind she was dating a Jewish guy. It was Ethan’s decision to go back into the closet (under Mike’s influence). I actually blame Mike for that 100%.
And blame him I do.
Pffffft oh my god dude how do you come up with these takes
I mean, it was Mike who suggested Ethan go back in the closet to avoid dealing with stress.
Which Ethan did.
And it sucked.
If I remember correctly Ethan had started dating Joyce without telling her he’s gay so she could act as his beard.
When he told her he was gay she decided that she still wanted to date him. Her stated logic is they could still date and avoid the temptation of men together.
Personally I think Ethan is an adult and can choose to commit to a sexless life or not. The part I find gross is that she tried to push him to do sexual things with her and tried to ward him away from girly things.
I mean, it’s complicated. Joyce wasn’t really Ethan’s beard so he could go and live on his own time, she was his beard so he could tell his parents he’d stop being gay in the hopes that they’d love him again.
Part of it is that Joyce needed someone who’d be around her all the time, and Ethan is a guy who is physically incapable of A. ever responding to Joyce’s sinful lust and B. think about her inappropriately which is pretty relevant given the recent trauma of being attacked by Ryan. Her stated motivation when they get together is, as Sarah put it, a mutual revulsion to fucking.
It’s the most sympathetic “dating a gay dude so he’d become straight” the world has ever seen, but, like, she was still dating a gay dude so he’d become straight. You know that whole “until today that was you” thing Roz said? Joyce wasn’t that to Becky, but she sure as hell was to Ethan.
It is, absolutely.
This isn’t a case of the dreaded HYPOCRISY, though, that terrible crime that’s somehow worse than actual outright bigotry or outright wishing death upon strangers. This is just that Sarah’s view of Joyce has changed.
Back then? Joyce was her annoying-ass roommate who was acting like a typical white girl home-schooled shut-in who’d only be interesting in that she’d be easy to tease with notions of how sex actually does exist.
Now? Joyce was the closest thing Sarah had to a little sister that she truly loved, someone with a hell of a lot more strength and courage than it looked like on the surface, and who gave even bitter, cynical Sarah a bit of hope that things might actually be able to get better.
Early Joyce trying to date Ethan into straightness? Annoying and detestable, but everything sucks anyway, it’s exactly what she’d expect Early Joyce to do, and it’s obviously going to fail, might as well watch the fireworks and build up some I Told You So cred.
This Joyce turning into Richard Dawkins? It’s disappointing. Early Joyce never disappointed, there was no way she could’ve scooted under that low bar short of shit like raping someone. And I think that’s what’s pissing Sarah off most of all right now.
I vehemently disagree with “Joyce is Richard Dawkins” but I otherwise enjoy this read on why Sarah is processing this the way she is.
Yeah- Sarah was recently kidnapped held hostage and threatened with death, so it’s possible her patience reserves for “more Brown Family drama (which includes Becky), world without end” isn’t as high as it was.
The punchline to the strip where Sarah and Liz go to breakfast was in Sarah exasperatedly stating she wasn’t going to tell her professors she had been kidnapped again.
There was an entire strip of Walky and Ethan standing there cracking jokes while a fight happened behind them.
Walky was still Walky during the whole thing. The very first strip is him snarking that he’s not going to be traumatized and then Sarah walked off because she had to go take a math test.
The kidnapping had no actual dramatic impact on any of the characters involved. It killed Blaine and Ross, and when Ethan comes back it almost certainly will, but everyone else? Hasn’t made a dang peep.
Yeah. All that is explicable as shock, or putting on a front, much as Joyce and Becky do. It doesn’t need to be spelled out in block capitals.
They all had a lovely time on Garbage Roof that very evening.
Like, it’s hard for me to read anything deep into it when it had no dramatic consequences for the personalities of anyone involved, and the dramatic consequences were plot-oriented like killing off Blaine and Ross, and setting up Mike’s death over the timeskip, the latter of which is where the character drama stuff comes into play for Amber and eventually Ethan.
Granted I do gotta roll it back a bit, Walky did display some shocked emotion after the fact when he talked with Dorothy, but that’s about it. It hasn’t factored into anything in how these characters have been written since, though it’ll probably become relevant again when Ethan comes back and seems like a good springboard for Walky’s transparent grief over Mike’s death.
Like, Joyce was agoraphobic after the party, she couldn’t walk outside alone. We got extremely clear indicators for years how much that messed her up, and we’ve never seen that do anything to the cast who had been kidnapped that didn’t involve Mike’s death.
It wasn’t that evening. It was explicitly a day or two later.
Ah you’re correct. “Is A Song Forever?” was the following chapter.
I don’t think that really changes much about how the kidnapping has or hasn’t impacted them, though.
Sarah hates everything, so her hating new joyce just sounds like a good time
Listen…I know what I’m about to say might be a bit controversial, but here I go. Joyce is not handling this losing faith trauma without collateral damage, she’s definitely acting with more anger than people would be comfortable towards and she’s not processing this rage against her upbringing well. But are none of her friends going to sit with the fact that a tiny fraction of this anger at herself might be on them as well?
Not a ton, obviously. That goes to the violent homophobia and cruelty of the people at her church. But literally everyone around her has taken a shot or two at Joyce’s hyper Christian upbringing. Every time these guys made these jokes is probably playing through her head, every time she was called brainwashed or weird, every time she was laughed at for not using curse words, or laughed at (by Sarah!!) for feeling uncomfortable confronting her ideas about evolution, all those times she’s expressed her previous ideology and was met with open ridicule. To the extent where a more aware Joyce plays on people’s expectations of her being a crazy fundie by pretending to freak out about Halloween, at this point she knows how she’s being viewed.
I’d be angry, too. About how I walked through my life looking so stupid to everyone around me, how my religion played me for a fool like that. The fact that no one is looking at their previous willingness to make fun of Joyce and her conservative Christian hang-ups in the same light as Joyce’s bitter lashing out at the god that truly fucked her over is- you know what? Upsetting! Disappointing! We all spent a significant time dumping on Joyce’s faith, maybe she sees herself as joining in on that party!
I’m not saying that Joyce’s attitude is great and lovely or CORRECT, but just a tiny bit of compassion or concern would be great! (I get it. These people aren’t great at emotions all the time and they’re not perfect, but this is something that’s been bugging me. Hopefully I put it right.)
I mean Joyce’s position is it’s RIGHT to take shots at Christians now when they were, in fact, being assholes.
True but she is turning into a militant atheist who, in the long run, will be no different than militant Christians. Kind of like how saying that God has a plan to someone who has just lost someone they loved is just as cruel as saying that God doesn’t exist and prayer is stupid to someone who lost someone they loved and are praying to sooth the pain.
I think it’s been a *day*. So I think “turning into a militant atheist” is a bit of a stretch at this point. She doesn’t know exactly what her religious identity is right now. She’s looking at extremes, of what she is *not*. At some point, she might figure out the possible nuances. Right now, she’s in reaction mode.
Pretty much, this is why I said in the long run, if she follows the asshole path.
That’s cause she’s embracing the position of her friends who to her we’re right to mock her
Not really.
Joyce’s position right now is that it’s right and fair to take shot at Christians for believing in God. Full stop. Whether or not they’re being assholes about it is irrelevant.
Interesting point.
Being the odd one out in a group or wider community is hard, you need a lot of confidence to withstand the snark and jeers. In her previous life, Joyce’s Christianity received constant positive reinforcement, but now that she’s in a broadly secular place, she has had to deal with the discomfort of outsidership.
… yeah, it’s likely the christian-bashing she had to put up with took a toll on her and that is now contributing to her current defiance. And it might also explain why she’s so taken aback by Sarah’s lack of support. “I’m now who you were all along, what’s the problem?”
“I’m now who you were all along, what’s the problem?”
That’s ecactly it.
Yeah I didn’t think about it till you brought it up, but Joyce is acting like Sarah does right now, and Sarah’s telling her it sucks.
Which, yeah, it’s almost as if Sarah puts a lot of undue strain on Joyce to be her emotional support.
I’d be angry, too. About how I walked through my life looking so stupid to everyone around me, how my religion played me for a fool like that. The fact that no one is looking at their previous willingness to make fun of Joyce and her conservative Christian hang-ups in the same light as Joyce’s bitter lashing out at the god that truly fucked her over is- you know what? Upsetting! Disappointing! We all spent a significant time dumping on Joyce’s faith, maybe she sees herself as joining in on that party!
It’s true and you should say it.
Relentlessly mocking Joyce was fine because she’d make silly Joyce faces instead of crying or getting angry. How could she get angry anyway? She believes in the craziest, most messed up stuff imaginable that’s so dumb you can just say it out loud without a joke.
Joyce is only worth anything when she smiles.
I question Joyce when she makes Becky cry.
So if Joyce started crying when Becky threw down or to what Sarah is aying here instead of getting angry, you’d be sympathetic to her?
That sounds pretty much spot on.
Hear hear!
This is exactly how supervillains start. Now Joyce just needs to find an atheist lair.
I get where Sarah is coming from but I don’t think a blanket “this is worse” was the best way to handle it. I hope someone is capable of sitting down with Joyce and explaining the issues with her attitude instead of just condemning it.
You’re askin’ a lot from some college freshmen.
Sarah is a sophomore.
Which according to Radiah means she should be the height of sophistication. Or something. (That time when she with Billie/Asher etc going on in front of Sal about how mature they now were is still hilarious).
Right? That entire exchange was hilarious.”Ooh, bring out the faaaahhhnnceh China, butler, I’ve guests coming over, ahnd they simply mustn’t imbibe their Mountain Lightning from the can like some sort of PEASANTS!”
The real punchline is that Sal then started going out with Danny because he’s been a constant source of emotional support and stability in the face of chaos being hoisted onto her.
Or: Sal totally one-upped Billie on the “settling down” thing because Sal is just always better than her at everything.
This is true. Jennifer tries too hard a lot of the time to look like she’s doin’ all the Big Kid Stuff, then Sal just goes and does it.
The difference fails to impress me. She’s still an incomplete human like the rest of ’em, just with a little more learnin’ done.
Honestly, Joyce may need to find some new friends.
How long as Angry*Joyce been a thing in-universe?
I find myself having to remember that while I’ve been sitting with it for weeks, the confrontation with Becky and subsequent boiling over of Joyce’s inner feelings about her conversion has lasted less than eight hours so far.
Lord knows *I* have been an absolute asshole about a bad situation for “most of a day” before, and I’m certainly glad my friends didn’t drop me for it.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that her friends have dropped her for it. Or that they will or should – unless it continues indefinitely.
Pointing out that she’s acting like an asshole, while she is in the middle of it isn’t the same. Should come along with a bit of trying to understand why and helping her work through it, but it’s early yet.
I mean no one’s dropped her or indicated that they will, except maybe Becky for good reason. If you’re being an asshole for a day -even after a bad day- it’s pretty normal for your friends to be like “dude you’re being a dick right now”
When you’re friends being a dick as a result of clear as day emotional pain you already are aware of, is it not kosher to, like, sit down and try to reach out to them?
If your best friend was angry as fuck about something, is the first thing you’re gonna say “calm down there dickbag” or would you ask what’s wrong? Are you okay? Did something happen?
Why are these clowns expecting constant empathy and constructive emotional processing Joyce when they can’t even acknowledge her feelings for a second?
i mean, it makes sense that a crisis of faith didn’t break joyce’s lifelong habit of loudly evangelizing her belief system as the One True Interpretation of All Existence, and also believing that everyone who doesn’t share her beliefs is a damned [literally!] fool
You can take the girl out of the church…
As usual, I’m all with Sarah in this.
Aight, so, I’ve been pretty clear where I stand, and I’m trying to wrap my head around some of the other reactions I’ve been seeing since the Faith-Off went down.
With what I’m going to ask, I’m going to say upfront I will not respond to any comments made about it unless asked, not in a “don’t @ me” fashion but that if anyone feels that they want to share their reads here because I asked for it, I don’t want them to do so and then I stroll in to argue. This is, purely, for me to get where others are coming from, and I’ll only respond back if someone indicates that sharing their take is something they want me to weigh in on. Just, y’know, don’t cherry pick a single line and go “heh, gotcha.”
Bluntly, what is with this drive to label Joyce as being shitty in the face of her trauma response?
This ended up being way longer than I thought so here’s some tags to CTRL+F for if you wanna skim through real quick to see if there’s anything specific you want to share your thoughts on, deeply apologetic I wrote a forum comment so large it needed tags:
1. Joyce is being disrespectful to religion.
2. Joyce is being a jerk to believers.
3. Joyce lied to Becky and talked behind her back.
4. Joyce is being a jerk/shitty/problematic.
5. Joyce’s trauma doesn’t make this okay.
1. Joyce is being disrespectful to religion.
This one kind of strikes me as the most absurd, and I feel that it’s one that relies on a fundamental misreading of Joyce’s character.
Joyce never had faith, she had facts. You know how Dina believes in verifiable science and changes and adapts her views with them? That was Joyce, except her verifiable science was that dinosaurs were on the ark, the Earth was 6000 years old, carbon dating is being fooled by time dilation from the Fall, and that a sky sea surrounded the earth and let humans live to 900 years old by protecting them from UV rays.
Joyce was not like me, someone who was culturally generic North American Christian, went to church, eventually lost my faith because my faith wasn’t important, and so it faded. Joyce now is essentially where Dina would be if Satan popped out of the ground with a dinosaur skeleton going “yo nerds guess who got fucking OWNED'”; every single thing she knew as a fact is wrong.
Also, it’s pretty damn important that Joyce did not have what can be described as a generic North American Christian upbringing. Danny and Billie had those, I bet a lot of us did too, and we’re seeing Joyce be angry at something us atheist and agnostic-types mostly engage with as casual if always present spirituality.
Y’all, Joyce did not grow up like that, she grew up in a death cult that beat into her that she has no value as a human being. The religion she is lashing out at is the one she’s known, and other Christians, because I cannot imagine Joyce is even capable of processing other faiths yet, only factor into that in how they all bought into the same lies Joyce did, because those lies were all Joyce knew.
2. Joyce is being a jerk to believers.
This is correct only in the most broad, thinly spread way possible. Let’s put it like this:
You come across me, and I am currently eating paint chips because they’re yummy. You tell me not to, you pull out article after article explaining the dangers of what I am doing, the harm I am causing to myself, and I laugh in your face. Wall candy makes me strong.
Joyce, who I will reiterate is incapable of processing religious belief as anything but an adherence to inerrant facts that define the origin of life to her own morals and the personality she has, has realized she’s been eating paint chips her whole life, surrounded by folks who have also sustained themselves on a diet of paint chips, and her best friend is one of them. Joyce doesn’t think Becky’s an idiot for eating paint chips, she thinks Becky’s smart enough to eventually realize that eating paint chips is bad for her. Becky’s intelligence doesn’t matter, she’s been indoctrinated into eating paint chips and there’s not a way to square eating paint chips as a good thing, and I’m sure you can figure out the metaphor I’ve been getting at without me needing to spell it out.
3. Joyce lied to Becky and talked behind her back.
lmao no shut up
Becky is not entitled to the contents Joyce’s brain, even if last story she told her she has to drag the Joyce Nonsense out of it since Joyce momentarily hesitated. Joyce can be an atheist and not tell her even if telling Becky would make things really, really convenient for Becky, even though Becky treated Joyce’s questioning of her faith as a stupid tantrum, and Joyce needed to tell Becky not to fuck Dina or she’d go to Hell like she was supposed to.
Joyce was having a private conversation with a sympathetic party that let her be mad at her death cult for the first time in her life. “I’m dumb for believing in God” is only harmful to Becky if Joyce’s ability to say shit is contingent on how her weirdo stalker friend will process it while hiding behind her door.
There is a slight possibility if Joyce actually believed that about Becky she would, given time, modify it, because Joyce modified the fuck out of the rules she followed when they told her to betray Becky. Joyce doesn’t need to process the complex realities of her now dead religious indoctrination for Becky’s convenience.
4. Joyce is being a jerk/shitty/problematic.
Correct.
Do you care why? Or is this series an exercise in “which character is the shittiest” for you?
‘Cause on one hand I’m gonna drop the civility for a second and say that if we’re holding Joyce accountable for processing her anger in a private conversation Becky stalked her to, then I don’t care what you think, you’re wrong. I don’t actually need to respect that.
It shouldn’t be this hard to understand where that anger is coming from. It especially shouldn’t be this hard when we can flip back to last chapter and see how Joyce deals with atheism with Joe, how she acted with Liz where she’s talking about her dumb bullshit religious doctrine the way it was treated, and only started saying anything of human consequence when Becky walked in, and it was only of human consequence because Becky walked in, the way Sarah and Jacob openly mocking her didn’t have human consequence since they didn’t get caught, so Joyce wasn’t there to be upset that they were laughing about how she’d snap and suck a billion dicks.
Do you think, perhaps, being exposed by Becky and Dorothy stalking her to a private conversation, being browbeaten into making it right by three of her friends, told that her apology is worthless because Becky says so, Becky telling her she failed at being a Christian because she only believed to be superior, and upon returning nobody asked her how she’s doing and instead started drilling again about how she’s “not really sorry” might, eventually, provoke Joyce to double down on being confident in herself? What is she supposed to do when she believes something and no one can hear her out long enough to understand why?
Like, you know you’re reading a character drama series, right? Where the thoughts, feelings and emotions of the cast are as important as the surface level actions they take? Are you only reading to say Joyce is problematic? ‘Cause I don’t get that.
5. Joyce’s trauma doesn’t make this okay.
Okay so here’s the thing. I can reasonably understand the idea of “you can’t lash out at your friends when you’re angry and it’s okay” in a vacuum. I think it’s a remarkably childish, self-aggrandizing and morally simplistic viewpoint masquerading as worldly empathy when phrased like that, but that’s because it’s the catchy slogan version of a more complex thought process like “you can’t force yourself into helping someone who’s not ready for help, you need to back off for your own sake, and once they’re ready to talk it out with you then you can be there. You can forgive a person for hurting you in an irrational state, but you can’t allow yourself to continue being hurt over and over, there needs to be an improvement and they need to want to improve.”
That I get.
Do you really think that level is getting hit here?
Because y’all’re writing this as if Joyce slugged Becky in the face and not, like, two childhood friends who love each other more than anything in the world had the first fight of their lives on the most important subject imaginable, and Joyce is dealing with it badly because her baby steps into figuring out the atheism thing got derailed.
Joyce and Becky had it out, and even if this whole thing happening is Becky’s fault for stalking her in the name of asserting herself as Joyce’s Cool Christian Friend, Becky gets to be mad. It’s important, also it’s feelings quit trying to mathematically quantify them, you weirdos. Life doesn’t actually work on a scale of Acceptable and Problematic.
Dorothy and Sarah have provided nothing but posturing, egotistical judgment in the face of Joyce wildly changing. They cannot even for a second consider Joyce’s feelings, and you can make a pretty reasonable guess as to why if you read into any of the existing character dynamics between them. These two are, actually, totally equipped to be empathetic and helpful to Joyce, but they don’t want to. Sarah sure as fuck doesn’t, she’s only capable of inserting herself to tell Joyce she should shut the fuck up and go back to the stupid fundie who constantly put in all the effort of their friendship.
It’s an obsession with moral purity and polite civility over the thoughts and feelings that drive someone to act out that I can barely conceptualize when discussing a fictional character who you can not only mind read at any opportunity, you can build a profile by going back and checking any appearance they want with the extremely convenient character tags. I can barely conceptualize it when discussing a fictional character, someone who cannot actually cause the grief that motivates someone to pull away, I sure as fuck can’t conceptualize a friend of mine acting like Joyce is now and going “damn so problematic time to end this toxic friendship.”
Person who is reading this, you’ve acted out, and I’m only calling it that because it’s the simplest way to get across that you’ve done some transgression at the consequence of a friend. Someone was there for you when you did, and it was okay that you did. You didn’t change that because you hit the Problematic scale and were being oh so shitty to your friends, you changed because your feelings mattered more than the brief instant of you lashing out as a result of who knows what the fuck. You don’t need to mathematically quantify feelings, you just fucking feel them.
You matter more than the problems you cause and anyone who doesn’t get that doesn’t give a shit about you, and you can take that to the fucking bank.
I think everyone is responding to a specific element that really gets under their skin.
Like I find Dorothys response to be disappointment instead of concern for why Joyce was acting like that, pretty disappointing if not expected. That gets under my skin because friends downplaying one friends feelings for another is a hurt I’ve experienced. Other people seem to be very hurt by the dismissing of belief.
Which on the one hand I get because belief is a highly personal cultural thing that absolutely gets shit on (especially Muslim and Jewish religions), but also this discussion is about Christianity so while Joyce being a “skygod” atheist is not great also Joyce is going after one of the most powerful religions on the planet, maybe one of the most powerful(a lot of political movements in America Britain and Australia(my country) are effected by Christian movements). Like I’m sorry Christian’s but your religion has done some damage to a lot of people and I think it’s well within the right of many to be mad about it. Joyce isn’t coming from that perspective but as a queer myself I struggle to feel sorry for people following a religion that actively harms people like me(Becky being gay doesn’t change the badness of Christianity).
So everyone has baggage including the comments section. Logically it’s 2 friends having a big fight caused by both having understandable fears and angst and honestly despite the ramble I think Beckys right to be angry, but so’s Joyce.
I guess if we all thought about what’s getting under our skin we might have better conversations. For me it’s being an autistic trans whose been in some real bad social dynamics, also went to catholic school and is kind of annoyed that religion mattered for 6 years.
I’m cool to talk bout it(forgot to add that)
This got me thinking about something, and to be clear it’s a personal conclusion I came to reading this as opposed to assigning my own words to you.
Like, is it really a moral imperative to care about “jerk atheists” when their target is the most powerful religion in North America?
You can’t friggin’ both sides that when the Angry Atheists are jerks on computers and not a cultural cornerstone with immense power and influence over the course of North American society! What does it even mean to be intolerant to an entity for whom tolerance is mandatory because there’s no way to shake it, when that intolerance draws from cultural history, let alone personal history like being brought up in a death cult or otherwise directly suffering at the hands of religious institutions? Why the fuck would you not hate them, and why is that hate invalid because, like, there’s A Good Christian somewhere and he doesn’t want to be included when you say “fuck Christianity.”
My dad’s catholic, he was also back a decade ago one of those insufferable old leftists who was fine with being gay, but you were still a source of mockery.
And then I came out to him as bi in 2014, pretty much because I was about to burst, and he, like, immediately altered in real time every single behaviour related to how he processed the existence of Queer folks. Never a crappy joke about it again, he’d encourage me to bring someone with him and specify a guy, he signed me up one time for a dating site going “find a girl… or boy!’
My dad pulled a Joyce for me! I never thought about how fucking big that was!
But what if he didn’t? All that shit he believed in stems from North American culture, and, like, a big fucking part of normalized prejudice comes from our religious institutions to the point. If he turned on me and destroyed my life, am I being fucking problematic for resenting his faith?
Like, I’m Canadian, and for those not in the know we’re going through a high profile event where the remains of Indigenous Canadian children are being unearthed at reservation schools across the country. Let’s disregard the religious institution responsible for a second, but if someone goes “fuck Canada and fuck Canadians for causing this”… like, do I get mad? Why the fuck do I need to tut tut language in the face of anger at injustice?
Have I been going #NotAllMen for Christianity and Catholicism this whole time
I think your right that being mean specifically about Christianity and Catholicism is honestly fine because of institutional power. The problem with new atheism is the lack of introspection of the cultural impacts of Christianity and Catholicism. Dawkins might not believe in god but absolutely still follows a lot of the same beliefs around gender, sexuality and Muslim people. In practical terms still a Christian, at least culturally.
As an Australian who learns every day of horrible things done to First Nations Australians, part of that history is the institutions of Christian’s and Catholics. There’s a whole group called the stolen generation because First Nation kids were taken from their homes to basically put the blak kids with white kids and remove blackness(basically eugenics). Christian churches participated in this. It’s difficult to square the personal dynamics of being cool with your friend whose a part of a religion and the horrible things the religion does.
I feel all you’ve said, it’s why I struggle to be too mad at Joyce when she was dealing with ugly emotions, even if Becky heard them. Like outside of catholic school, religion wasn’t really present and even I can see how much that kind of structure can hurt. Fuck, I can understand my bullies when I was going to school but that doesn’t automatically change the fact I was hurt by them.
Catholicism is a bit tricky, since while it’s also a world power, many Protestant countries have a deep history of anti-Catholic prejudice. In the US’s case, partly explicitly religious and partly ethnic, since it was tied to later immigrants.
In some ways similar to how Islam is treated – yeah it’s a major world religion and tied to an awful lot of oppressive stuff, but it’s also the faith of marginalized minorities in the US and Europe, who are very vulnerable to stirring up anger at their religion.
This is definitely affected by me living in nsw Australia where Catholicism is very dominant and is tied up in some specific Australian stuff. Thank you for adding the historical corrections though. In criticising power I don’t want to incorrectly do so
I see it, drawing from my own country, as like Quebec and its rise of French nationalism.
It is actually completely true that English-speaking Canadians marginalize the French language even though we’re officially a bilingual country, and that marginalization coming about due to a big pile of “change for my convenience.”
However, that’s manifested as a super fucked up wave of xenophobic Quebecois nuts who stalk and harass anyone speaking English in their province and install rules and laws that get in the way of their pure vision of Quebec culture. Which, like all culture wars, eventually started getting fucky with Quebec Muslims and recently some lovely transphobia.
It’s a nation-wide problem that we don’t respect the French language, but the only place they do are now being huge bags of dicks to the minority element of their province.
Fuck, that is really messed up. It’s really revealing that the only way some groups choose to gain legitimacy is through hate. Sorry your country is going through that
It’s not just the English speakers they harass, They also consider none Quebecois French speakers as not true Quebecers as well. If you aren’t pure laine you ain’t shit.
Your point about the both-sides-erism is right on. Being out of the dominant mainstream religious assumptions is like spitting against a hurricane. Any efforts are taken way out of proportion. Like the time I was on an ICQ forum years ago, and very nicely pushed back against some of the assumed religious thought. Let’s consider that not everyone believes the same way, etc. Wow. I got PMed to be careful about other people’s feelings. The Fu8k?! What about my feelings? Nope, I was in the minority, so clearly, my feelings were not particularly valid.
I think that yes, you should worry about jerk atheists. Because you are not dealing with The Religion. You are dealing with People. Individual people who just want to live their lives and do a good thing if possible. This mentality is what got you all the societal progress of the last couple of decades. Regular people being shown bad things and wanting to help. You let jerks have the free reigns of your movement and you will push those people away.
Thank you for your analysis, Spencer.
The only thing I think is missing from your list of views on what’s going on that I’ve been getting more and more concerned about is that this is absolutely starting to smell like a radicalization arc. Now, I don’t think Joyce is about to do anything violent, but we seem to be approaching that mentality of “no matter what I do everyone tells me I’m wrong so why don’t I just be wrong and enjoy it since I’ll never be right” that turns people into insufferable loners until they find “their people” and just let their feelings feedback until they explode in a very messy way. We just had a mini version of that, and I could see it getting much worse if the only response Joyce gets to what happened is “you’re wrong and bad again, and now everyone knows.” At this point, we still see that Joyce cares deeply about what others think of her, but her reactions have shifted from “I have to try to rise to their opinion of me” to more frustration and less introspection.
Is it anyone’s responsibility to make sure Joyce doesn’t go down that road, of course not (well, maybe the university’s/RA’s since these are all wee babby adults and not yet equipped to understand what’s going on), but I would imagine friends should WANT to make it their responsibility to help with this. I wonder if we’ll see friendships shift after this, depending on who (if anyone) reaches out in earnest.
Then again, I’m still pulling for this whole mess galvanizing her current friendships once people (not just Becky, but probably primarily her) have space and time to breath and realize that A) something must be wrong beyond Joyce making a loud mistake and B) that ultimately they care about each other no matter what and want to fight for their friendship.
Joyce is cringe. For now. I really like how DoA writes characters who’re going through stuff. None of the characters will be the same after college and it’s silly to expect anyone to be perfect at any point.
I do wish the friendship between Joyce and Becky can go on (same with others in this strip) but sometimes people just aren’t in the same wavelength anymore.
Still, Joyce is cringe. Stop it, Joyce, or go ask Danny for his fedora.
Now, now, let’s not do Danny a disservice: He doesn’t wear a fedora.
Yeah.
That’s defamation of character.
Whole lotta witnessing (Atheist witnessing included, yes its a thing), temps running a bit high, just gonna wish everyone a happy Halloween and return when its fun to. Have a great weekend.
Everyone has the right to be angry here.
Joyce is angry because recent events left her feeling suckered and betrayed, like everything she was ever taught as a child was a bold-faced lie.
Becky is angry because she just caught her best friend making fun of her beliefs behind her back, who then chose to double down when confronted.
Dorothy and Sarah are angry because Joyce is starting to take her justifiable anger in an unhealthy direction.
This isn’t about who feels superior to whom. This is a matter of emotions that have just boiled over, and how certain people have chosen to deal with them.
“Joyce this is worse! I can’t frequently make fun of you behind your back to people anymore!!!”
Alt text continuation:
‘…The passionate optometrist yells as they throw glasses into the screaming crowd’
(Favourite tumblr joke and honestly I’m always reminded of that when I hear that line).
in this case, it’s even more appropriate because Joyce just got glasses and some commenter recently wondered if glasses caused atheism (there followed a stream of people reporting their respective spiritualities/lack thereof, and eye pathologies.) Becky even tried to save her, to no avail.
…on an unrelated note, i was trawling through the archive and i can’t believe no one said “#meta” on this strip. because, uh, the title.
Interestingly I decided to read a bit after the whole ‘Joyce gets glasses’ bit and came across this strip.
That first panel with Becky is kind of ‘oof’ in retrospect given The Schism that is Joyce and Becky at the moment even if possibly the comment on her brain is just a throw away line.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/02-look-straight-ahead/thedeed/
the wound is still raw, and she’s not been aware that non-Christians have to be deferential to Christians or else their pain is just dismissed as a phase.
OMG, this is so true. I feel that. I keep forgetting my obligatory deference. Okay, not true. The awareness is always there.
Stepping away from commenting until the perspective switches bc a) i just had a verrry stressful messy MRI experience and don’t have the spoons to stress out about other people’s opinions on cartoon characters anymore, b) i can tell it’s already crossing the line (for me specifically) from fun petty arguments about things that don’t matter to legitimately anxiety inducing and dragging me into the worse parts of my own terrible personality so
Call me when we’re arguing about Walky’s ADHD or booster being the antichrist again or something
Have fun and take care of yourselves y’all! Esp you Spencer
(but my opinions on cartoon characters are really good)
I hope you recuperate quickly from that MRI.
good on you for knowing when to pull out.
get well soon =)
So… As an autistic person, I read the yesterday strip and thought “well, everyone is angry at Joyce, so she must have done something bad.” Because this is how I know I have done something I shouldn’t have. When people are angry at me. But then I started to think and I don’t actually see that Joyce did anything that would warrant this kind of treatment. To me, it seems like her friends are bullying her. Yes, in the fight with Becky both of them could say better things. But it still doesn’t warrant this kind of ostracism from everyone else.
I see a lot of myself in Joyce in today’s strip. I had to learn that not every time somebody’s is angry at me I had actually done something wrong, and I’m still learning to stand my ground in this kind of situations. I’m proud of Joyce that she can stand her ground. She is learning new things and she stands by them. She evolves. Those are good things in my book.
And for the record, I sometimes see autistic traits in Joyce. Not that I think that she is actually autistic, but she has some traits. The food thing, for example. And I think she sometimes doesn’t do people very well. But with autistic traits, it isn’t her fault. She is doing the best she can, with a great passion, as she always does. She was not authentic in her interactions with Liz, and that was unfortunate, but again, this is something that autistic people do – try to change their behavior according to those around them to fit in. It’s a survival strategy.
Just my 2 cents from a neurodivergent point of view.
…Is that how it works for neurodivergency?
Because I’ve also been completely, totally bent in the face of someone getting angry at me. Can’t handle it.
Methinks that’s an aspect of how it works for many neurodivergent people, but obviously not everyone. There are various different ways to be neurodivergent. 😛
I think only you can judge that – it can be because of various reasons. But I believe it is one of ways to cope with not understanding societal rules very well.
Thank you for saying this, I am also autistic and definitely see what she’s going through as unfair considering what she was responding too. She has a lot of traits that go beyond comedic extremes(especially with food). Perhaps taking religion in a literal direction ties into that, cause I definitely struggle with honesty in that I must always be honest and maybe Joyce is the same with her consistency of religion(either it’s all fact or it’s all crap)
As another autistic person myself, I too see some minor traits of it in her. The hyperfocusing (like with her study and memorization of the bible, or more recently, her comic). I don’t think she’s a full aspie (that spot goes to Dina), but I do think she has socialization issues.
Which is meshing with the fact that this storyline necessitates that all of Joyce’s friends be meaner to her than they naturally would be, to create a really problematic situation for her. But that everyone’s behavior here is being slanted somewhat unrealistically to fit the narrative isn’t inherently a bad thing (the Villain Dad teamup to kidnap people being an example of a storyline that isn’t realistic, but does provide fruit).
I do expect Joyce to come out of this on the otherwise a more well rounded person, and seeing her growth through the years as I read silently has honestly been a great experience for me personally.
See, I don’t think they’re being meaner to Joyce, so much as they’re being like this because Joyce isn’t funny idiot bible girl Joyce and they don’t know how to deal with it, so they blame her. She’s causing a problem to their existing social dynamic, so they want to drag her back to her role.
(also welcome aboard)
So the autistic people present here see those traits in her as well. Given that this comic is autobiographical, I’m now imagining Willis reading the comments, going “huh” and proceeding to get assessment 😀
Willis has contemplated before already whether he’s possibly autistic..
https://twitter.com/damnyouwillis/status/1013943255539515394
In reference to this page: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/fidgety/
A joyce-is-autobiographical question: Is/was Roomies super capital-A Atheistic?
No. It was pretty Fundie.
Yeah.
Joyce at one point tells Sarah while she’s watching a movie where characters are having pre-marital sex that Joyce’s presence reminds Sarah how impure she is, and she is completely correct.
Reading through the comment threads I think one of the running themes is just who it’s easier to relate to.
A lot (not all, but many) of those who are angry with Joyce’s friends and want them to understand and empathize with her instead of condemning her seem to be ex-Christians who went through deconversion themselves – they understand the mindset at work, they understand the impulses, they’ve seen it in themselves and they know where it’s all coming from, and they see a wounded soul in need of compassion. They see someone lashing out in pain, and know personally that a soft word turneth away wrath, at least in these kinds of situations.
But to be honest, the internal mindset of someone deprogramming from Christianity isn’t, I think it’s fair to say, something widely known among the general population. That isn’t a framework most people have available for use when analyzing relationship dynamics. The frameworks they DO have and relate to most are things like “talking shit behind someone’s back isn’t cool even if you think it’s private” or “refusing to apologize outright when you hurt someone is bad” or “Wow, that militant Christian has become a militant atheist and is as much of a dick as they were before if not more so” or “I don’t care what shit you’re working through, you don’t get to hurt me/my friends and use that as an excuse” or “You may be angry and those feelings are valid, but I also can be angry and THOSE feelings are valid too.” Not everyone has all of those tools or prioritizes them in the same way but for better or worse, those are the tools that most people have at hand when confronted with a situation like this. Unfortunately few of these frameworks specifically dictate compassion towards the person acting out as a first response, and I think there’s a general understanding that someone who DOES respond in such a way is going above and beyond the call of society – someone we’d respect and admire as being particularly compassionate and even-tempered, as opposed to being the norm from which deviation appears wrong and shameful.
And the thing is, you can see why it’s set up this way because when those tools come into play in isolation they’re often in the context of someone being an asshole and the societal expectation is that it’s not on you to accommodate someone being an asshole. If for instance it had been Malaya or Mary or someone using any one of those frameworks, we’d probably not be saying that it’s on everyone else to understand them with compassion and put up with their bullshit. They relate, in other words, to the person being hurt or the bystanders, not the person lashing out. But in this case, we DO get a deeper picture of why Joyce is acting the way she is, [i]if you are particularly empathetic or familiar with the signs[/i], and for those who can see her pain they look for compassion. Everyone else mostly sees someone coded by society as “kind of being a dick right now,” and responds accordingly.
Which is all to say that Jocelyne is probably the person that Joyce needs to talk to most right now in the universe because she’s probably the single person who can best understand where she’s coming from, and it’s a shame that Joyce has no in-universe way of realizing this.
Well said.
Actually, I’d be very interested if Jocelyne is also still a Christian.
Joyce’s mind might be broken.
After reading this comic without commenting *for years* I am finally so frustrated to the point I have gone out of my way to write this out. Not only that I back read about a year to make sure I remembered what happened in the relevant strips.
Joyce’s behaviour is 100% justified and reasonable. She is not problematic or toxic or militant or radicalized. She is perfectly validated in how she is reacting and has not been shitty or unfairly lashed out at anyone at any point. Basically every single one of her friends have failed *her*. Joyce has been working exceptionally hard to unlearn her harmful behaviours, to the point where mid behaviour she stopped and acknowledged what she was doing and changed course (re: boosters gender identity). She’s not perfect, sure, but she has grown considerably in what has been a few months. No one else in this story has had nearly the same amount positive growth.
She has been quietly, and mostly internally, dealing with her loss of faith for a while- and often times she has opened up about it she has been scolded, not supported, or the conversation has been quickly derailed by someone else’s bigger trauma. Consistently Joe has been her most reliable person for having these feelings as they come up when they come up in whatever way they come up- and there is still a lot of issues there. And the entire time she has been trying to be careful of Becky’s feelings and (suuuper unhealthy) possessiveness. She even put up a clear boundary with her, saying “I don’t want to talk to you about this”. Ultimately she has been dealing with this very much alone with no one who makes her feel safe and heard.
Enter Liz, who says, out loud, the things Joyce has been thinking in her head, and who, at least in some ways, understands what Joyce is saying about her feelings. Liz is, as far as we can tell, the first person who has made her feel safe and heard about this huge, world changing thing she is dealing with. Now Liz is, from a different perspective, kinda insufferable. She and Sarah have some History(tm) among other things, but for Joyce she is the first person she’s ever met who has come out the other side of transitioning from christian to atheist. She is also loud and has a big personality and seems to be a bulldozer, which is a type of personality Joyce responds well too. That kind of person matches her general energy levels while ALSO taking a pseudo-authority roll (genuinely not that different to her and Becky’s regular dynamic). Her, Liz and Sarah go to Joe’s rooms because Joe has become someone Joyce is comfortable being “flawed” around (Joe has been dealing with his own shit recently and mostly seems confused about what is happening).
Up until the *minute* before Becky walks in, Joyce has not really considered if believing in God is stupid. Liz is venting, and the wheels in Joyce’s brain are turning as she processes and explores this new angle on her rather emotionally tumultuous personal journey. There is no reason for Joyce to think that *anything* she is saying could hurt anyone, because the people who are present are all people she knows are not bothered by this. And honestly, she has no reason to believe that most of her friends would be upset by her trashing christian beliefs, because for the last semester she has been being teased and roasted almost constantly about having them. Up until this exact moment, making fun of fundamentalist beliefs has been perfectly and completely socially acceptable.
She is clearly EXTREMELY distressed when she realizes Becky heard her, and what is her friends reaction? Being disappointed in her and insisting she go apologize. The only person on her side is Liz, who is a bit much but at least isn’t angry at her for having feelings where she reasonably thought they couldn’t hurt anyone. And honestly? Yea she should apologize to Becky, and she did. But Becky doesn’t want an apology, she wants Joyce to recant and be christian and not change. Literally, there was nothing Joyce was going to be able to say that would make Becky feel better but reaffirming her faith unequivocally.
And sure, Becky gets to be hurt- but being hurt doesn’t make you *right*. Becky is in the wrong here. Her refusal to allow Joyce to have other friends means she got to overhear something that she was never meant to overhear, and then she goes out of her way to try to make Joyce feel as shitty as possible and set herself up as the victim (I don’t imagine she is doing that on purpose). Could Joyce have handled it slightly better? Sure, of course, but honestly the outcome was going to be the same. Becky had decided how that discussion was going to go before Joyce got there.
Then after no one checks in with Joyce. Not one asks her if she is okay- or even what happened. To everyone in that room Becky was the most important thing. But Joyce is not wrong, why does she have to be sorry for this? To re-frame this as an analogy, if Joyce was fiddling with a pencil when she thought she was alone and Becky unexpectedly came into her room while she was distracted and got poked by the pencil, Joyce is not at fault. She would reasonably apologize to Becky because she got poked by the pencil and it probably hurt, but she doesn’t need to be sorry about fiddling with the pencil, or even having the pencil. Doesn’t matter if Becky has previous pencil trauma, or strong opinions about the right kind of pencil- Joyce is not required to live every second of her life in a way that is comfortable for Becky.
Then she is gone for 30 minutes to do something important to her (and quite frankly if she wants to process her loss off faith in a comic then she should, even if it gets preachy no one is being forced to read it except maybe Daisy as editor), and is she congratulated? No. Does anyone check in with her to see if maybe she wants to talk about what happened? No. Instead someone she loves is trying to make her feel shitty about not being the same anymore. Yea no shit she is getting defensive.
Joyce isn’t even being mean to Sarah here, the only thing Joyce has done in this conversation is defend herself and be slightly uncharitable about Becky. Nothing Joyce has done has been cruel or unfair- even the last bit about making the world better through comics and shouting is the second time she has shouted since Becky heard her, and the first time was only after she had been shouted at and shamed for failing to do faith right while trying to apologize for something Becky had no business overhearing.
It is genuinely concerning how many people seem to think “standing up for yourself” is toxic.
Now if you wanna make the best impression possible with your first post, you certainly made it.
Just everything captured all at once here in one big slab that gets to how Joyce’s friends have let her down for stepping out of her assigned role.
So one thing I want to say here, because I think it’s something that’s kinda gotten missed a lot elsewhere as well: The problem Becky has isn’t that she overheard something she wasn’t supposed to. The problem isn’t that Joyce has the beliefs she now has (something Becky explicitly noted earlier!). The problem isn’t even really that Joyce has hurt Becky! The problem is, specifically, the fact that she is friends with Joyce, and that Joyce is friends with her That’s a relationship that goes further than others and is one built on mutual trust and respect – and from Becky’s perspective, Joyce has put both of those foundations in jeopardy.
The trust issue is pretty clear, of course – Joyce hasn’t updated Becky on her new beliefs, which is relatively minor and understandable, while the bigger issue is that apparently Joyce has been making fun of Becky’s beliefs behind her back, turning those beliefs into a mocking joke. Not too great.
The respect issue, though, lies in that mockery – leaving aside specifically what Joyce has said, what is revealed is that Joyce fundamentally doesn’t respect Becky’s beliefs anymore and thinks they’re kinda stupid. That’s a problem in any relationship – it’s hard to feel genuine friendship with someone who thinks you’re a moron and acts condescendingly towards you, even if they’re polite, magnanimous, and benevolent about it. You might perhaps LIKE that person and respect them for their virtues, but even in such a case it wouldn’t be an equal relationship, or an equal friendship.
So the question for Becky isn’t really one of right or wrong, of correct action or behavior – it’s simply a question of “Are we still friends? CAN we still be friends?” The key issue for her is their mutual relationship, and whether it can still exist in its present form or even at all given the new conditions she now knows about. If, as she seems to be trending towards, the answer is “No, we can’t,” is that so wrong? Is she obligated and required to be friends with someone who has hurt her, and apparently still intends to behave in a way likely to continue hurting her? If she decides that too much has changed and that the new terms of the relationship are no longer acceptable, is that so bad?
And to be clear, this is not to say that Joyce is necessarily in the wrong, either! She’s acting the way she is due to new beliefs of her own – she HAS changed as a person, and that’s her right. But precisely because she has changed, reevaluation is necessary, and not only on Becky’s end – Joyce has to decide too whether her relationship with Becky can fit into her new world view. Both of them are within their rights to look at the new conditions and say “No, not good enough any more,” and if they so decide, is that the worst thing in the world? Is it necessary to force a relationship whose basic tenets no longer hold true, for the sake of what was once true? Is it not healthier for them to either renegotiate how the relationship should now work, or if it turns out they’re now entirely incompatible, to end it as cleanly as they can?
In a way this is pretty much the culmination of trends – given Joyce’s new beliefs and Becky’s old ones, it was a collision course that was bound to happen sooner or later as both of them redefined themselves and their relationships.
Also as a general aside I’ll add that in any given relationship of any nature if the primary argument has become “Who’s morally right and who’s morally wrong” it’s probably a good time to question if the relationship should still exist. Point-scoring relationships are ones in which nobody wins, even if you can manage to prove that you’re right and somehow get the other person to acknowledge it.
Ultimately though, Becky doesn’t respect Joyce. She loves Joyce, they have a long and somewhat emotionally fraught history, but she doesn’t ever seem to have a lot of respect for her. She gladly exacerbated Joyce’s anxieties about getting glasses, because she was both denied being able to go get spicy chicken nuggest with Sarah and more desperate to “win” in being Joyce’s friend against Dorothy than actually be a good friend. It genuinely took Dorothy telling her that she needed to go support Joyce because she was clearly scared before she stopped pouting about her perceived loss and helped Joyce.
She has no qualms about smashing Joyce’s boundaries, and is constantly possessive of her “ownership” over Joyce’s relationships. She even realized that she was getting a little too mean to Dorothy and talked about it with Dina and eventually with Dorothy in her own way, but never considers if Joyce may find the dynamic stressful. She is incredibly condescending about Joyce’s feelings, and either brushes her off (ie, calling any visible anxiety “Joyce nonsense”) or takes it personally (ie. when Joyce first expressed being unsure of Christianity and Becky wanted to be talked out of having sex, she called Joyce a bummer and condensed to her about “having only been at odds with their parents for 30 seconds”).
Their relationship is not based in mutual trust and respect, Joyce is Becky’s emotional support friend. Becky doesn’t actually really seem to understand Joyce or think of her as a whole person separate from their relationship. Becky really doesn’t have emotional or mental space for Joyce to not live up to this idealized version of her. Meanwhile Joyce is *so careful* about how what she does affects Becky (to the point of overthinking it but thats anxiety for you) and her love for Becky was the driving force of her building her understanding of the world from scratch.
Honestly I don’t think it would have mattered what Joyce had said, the rejection of Christianity is the rejection of Becky, because she has become emotionally dependent on the idea of this friendship. And I get why, Becky has been through the shit, and Joyce’s presence in her life has been an emotional life line to God. Her newer, and overall healthier relationships, don’t have that even if she considers them signs of God’s love for her. But she is dependent on Joyce.
In this context, Becky’s hurt does not really have any bearing on the issue. The issue is that Joyce is not allowed to externally process anything that might upset Becky ever. Even if she removes herself out of Becky’s company, there is always the risk that Becky will decide that Joyce has to spend time with her now and so anything she is doing or saying MUST be considerate of Becky’s needs and feelings.
What happens if/when Joyce has a romantic relationship? Is Becky all of a sudden going to respect Joyce’s right to boundaries? She would probably be hurt if Joyce decided to have premarital sex and given her behaviour it would be entirely possible for her to get jealous that Joyce is spending time with her boyfriend again and barge in to crash it and all of a sudden Joyce is getting screamed at all over again.
You are right that they need to reevaluate their friendship, and what has to change to make the relationship healthy moving forward, but a lot of that work is going to have to come from Becky. Given that this is all maybe a couple hours worth of time, I think Joyce’s inherent kindness and compassion will filter through the “belief is stupid” rhetoric she has internalized for the first time, because we already know that she is able and willing to do that and she will feel genuinely apologetic for the hurt it cause Becky. However, Becky is going to have to deal with Joyce existing beyond her roll in Becky’s life as “best friend” following the script Becky has written for her.
re: your aside, while it is super important for any relationship to see issues like this as an “us vs the problem” rather than a “you vs me”, there are absolutely times when one party needs to acknowledge that they are/were wrong. Sometimes we are wrong, and we can hurt and mistreat people we care about, and being a good friend means owning up to it. And expecting that when your friend/family/partner does mistreat you that they acknowledge it does not mean you are trying to “win” the relationship. All that happens when every time there is conflict both parties take equal responsibility is that nothing really changes, the person who caused the problem doesn’t have to examine their behaviour or actions because it wasn’t *all their fault*.
To tie it in, this is not Joyce’s fault. She should never have been put in a situation where she cannot express anything that may hurt Becky’s feelings because Becky may show up unannounced and it will be Joyce’s responsibility to fix it. A resolution where they both take equal responsibility means that Joyce has to agree that she should not ever be allowed to express any negative feelings about something Becky likes (and conversely, positive feelings about something she doesn’t) because it would be possible for Becky to overhear it. That is absurd. It is Becky’s attitude and behaviour towards Joyce that needs to change, Joyce should not take responsibility for the sake of “fairness”.
impressive write-up powderweapon!
very good point, re: Liz being very Becky-like ^^
let me react to a couple things.
Becky doesn’t want an apology, she wants Joyce to recant and be christian and not change. Literally, there was nothing Joyce was going to be able to say that would make Becky feel better but reaffirming her faith unequivocally.
I don’t agree with that necessarily. There’s nothing within the Faith-Off dialogue itself that would indicate that. The conversation at Dina’s party is moot as far as i’m concerned. Becky and Joyce were both self-absorbed, and neither listened to the other.
All that happens when every time there is conflict both parties take equal responsibility is that nothing really changes, the person who caused the problem doesn’t have to examine their behaviour or actions because it wasn’t *all their fault*.
er… no? that may be your experience, but it’s definitely not a general truth. sharing the responsibility means sharing the effort of making things better, and that is a thing that actually happens when both people are committed to the relationship and the emotional effort required to sustain it.
(now i’m certainly not saying the responsibility is always shared. sometimes one person is in the wrong, period.)
I wonder something, about you and about other commenters such as Spencer.
Do you have friends who resemble Becky?
Loud, demonstrative, wisecracking, hypersocial, blustery sort of friends? friends you might find exasperating and a bit pushy, but it’s par for the course with them and so it’s fine?
I ask because, reading comments like yours & Spencer’s, while i understand everything you say on a surface level and find your points internally coherent and all, i just can’t vibe with the pretty appalling image you paint of Becky.
I’m not saying she can never do wrong by me, for instance she definitely could’ve been paying a bit more attention to Joyce the past few months.
but for all i’ve tried to read these comments fairly and empathize and all, i can’t help but disagree on a visceral, emotional level. Because, see, Becky feels COMPLETELY like a friend i might have, and her entire personality is legitimately attractive. Not cringey, not obnoxious: awesome. All i’m saying is, we’re reading the same events and characters very differently.
Becky has been mocking Joyce literally since she showed up post-Anderson. She hasn’t been respecting Joyce for a looong time.
thankyuuu
You’re channeling most of my feelings on this whole deal. I’ve been kinda disorriented as it feels like the show has telegraphed that Joyce is going down a dark path which in itself feels frustrating but now she’s doubled down in a strange way. I feel like the narrative is against Joyce but I agree with your analysis as that’s how I see the factors too.
i kinda assume that she is going to sit in these feelings for a while. partly because she is on a journey of separating herself from something that makes her feel stupid and pathetic and needs to kinda inoculate herself against that self hatred and being a bit smug for a hot 5 minutes will help with that. and partly because everyone around her is being aggressive rather than understanding so she is going to hide behind it as a defence mechanism while the only support network she has turns on her for being a little bit mean.
Okay I need to learn how to make ground level comments like this one, though it is neat to have Carla as an avvie.
man i feel bad for Joyce. she’s being insufferable, but that’s just cos I’m bored with shouty nihilist atheists.
I just. can’t. with how. ALONE she is. I want someone (not me) to wrap her up in a blanket and rock her and get down into how badly she was lied to and how much Work was put on her to justify those lies, and just. how apolide she is now. who will take on the apostate. Why is she left to do all this shit Alone. She always had to do this alone. She Always had to fix her beliefs alone, because when she noticed inconsistencies in the biblical texts, it was Sinful to express or pursue those doubts. She had to make those tortured justifications up herself. So Much Work.
oh joyce =(
Thank you, this is exactly right. When she gets physically alone, it’s gonna hit her.
Dumbing of Age Book 12: Letting Everyone Know That God is Stupid, Through Both Comics and Shouting
On one hand, it’s unfair of Joyce to disrespect Becky’s views. Becky choosing to stay religious is valid and not hurting anyone. On the other hand, Joyce didn’t expect Becky and Dotty to hear what she said. She shouldn’t say religious people are dumb, but everyone’s treating her like her actions were malicious. Joyce is angry because Christianity has been used against people she loves and she spent her whole life filtering her thoughts because she believed it too. It makes sense that she’d be upset, and while she isn’t handling what she’s going through perfectly, everyone is expecting her to do it without any outward mess, and that isn’t fair to Joyce.
See?!? This is exactly what i was talking about.
But i get the feeling that sooner or later someone will finally get through to her.
I was hoping someone would finally tell Joyce the real truth, and I was hoping it was going to be Sarah.