Just for the record, those so-called “Obama phones” are merely the same telephone “Lifeline” program that was introduced back in 1985 (during Reagan’s second term, so it’s not some Johnny-come-lately liberal thing). Of course, THEN it provided federal subsidies for land-line phones, but as more and more people ‘cut the cord’, it was expanded to allow for cellular phones.
Legend has it, if you shine the Obamaphone’s torch at the sky on a cloudy night, Obama will return, flying in the Obamawing, wearing his Obamabelt with a can of shark-repellant Obama-spray on it.
Joe: “I don’t think I’m qualified to teach you evolution, but I know of someone who is. Just give me a second to find some Cocoa Puffs. Or Chicken McNuggets. Whatever we can get our hands on sooner. Or if you’re willing to spare some health points and maybe a shred of clothing, just make fun of dinosaurs.”
IDK, I think Joyce is probably aware enough that if she spends more time with Liz, she’ll spot the problems. They’re both overcorrecting hard, and another example of that may be just what she needs. If it helps her with her other repressed issues at the same time, that’s a win-win.
Don’t get me wrong. The sheer amount of SQUISH I’m picturing in my head is not a dissatisfying mental image. They’ve actually got similar curves (though Liz is quite a bit moreso) and that might be fun.
Since neither of them would know what they’re doing Liz x Joyce has the potential to be either very wholesome or very underwhelming but entertaining regardless.
The problem is that they wouldn’t be HONEST about not knowing what they were doing. The whole “let’s experiment cautiously, communicating clearly and honestly with each other what’s working and what isn’t and what we’re feeling apprehensive about” thing? That’s the exact OPPOSITE of what they would be doing.
Clearly Ruth’s a switch, if she’s even a bottom at all. Emotionally maybe, but once engaged she always seemed to be in physical control of Ms. Billingsworth.
@yotomoe I would pay real money to see u illustrate such a holy threesome. And I’m poor as shit. If that doesn’t boost your confidence a bit idk what will. If u won’t do it for us at least do it for the squishy goodness
I mean, yeah, she obviously has no idea what she’s talking about, but I think the undercurrent of “I’m tired of being judged for someone I’m not and living without all these other experiences” is on-point. That’s kinda what being a repressed virgin in a society that teaches you to innately fear and be repulsed by sex while constantly staring at it does to you.
I really only see that as red flags if Joe himself is uncomfortable with sleeping with someone who’s that driven by wanting it than really knowing it, but, y’know, it’s just an orgasm.
I have to admit I’m a little proud of myself here. I kind of figured Liz wasn’t as far ahead of Joyce as she seemed. Especially since she apparently can’t tell the difference between edible weed and a vitamin gummy.
Partly, I guess, because my analysis of her came to a hard stop when I decided she was a dumpsterfire of a human being. I’d written her off by the time she popped the gummy.
Joyce is not “corrupted” just because she is growing and changing in ways which aren’t fun for everyone. LIZ is not some demon who came in and tempted Joyce into the dark side.
They are both teenagers who are trying to break their own religious indoctrination and (like teenagers do) they are being emotional and boastful rather than admit how frightening it is to accept that you might really be all alone in a world where nothing was planned ahead of time for you.
This narrative people have that Liz is some corrupting evil influence is getting fucking tiresome.
I hope people were more understanding for you when you were going through whatever cringe-filled awkwardtastic changes you went through as a young adult.
Eh; “corrupting” more in the sense of being a REALLY bad example of how to handle her newfound loss of belief in God. If Liz had been the sort of person who said “meh; I don’t really believe that shit anymore but I’m not going to shove it in their faces” when Joyce brought up how she posts all this Christian stuff on facebook, instead of initiating the “mocking the ever living fuck out of the concept of being religious”, it’d be a whole different story.
Just because she’s a teen breaking religious indoctrination doesn’t give her a pass on encouraging Joyce’s behavior.
Because I see a lot of “ugh I used to be such an edgy atheist, so cringey” and yeah I get that, but I get that because I’m pretty sure most of us didn’t grow up in a fundamentalist death cult. How is she supposed to act?
My church wasn’t as fundie as Joyce’s, and I personally am still a Christian, but the kids in my class who walked away from the church just…stopped attending. They went away to college or whatever they did next, maybe tried a new church in that area or maybe not, and eventually started sharing posts on facebook calling out the shit some churches do (the one I’m thinking of in particular was homeless for a while and posting about how little help the church gave her family while they were still members, and how the church-run shelters that she and her mom went to were at best unhelpful and at worse abusive). There was no “edgy atheism”, just a quietly starting to walk away.
That said, none of the people I’ve seen go through this had the kind of shock-trauma to their faith that Joyce did. But calling out specific shit that the church is wrong about / harmful for about is very different from diving headfirst into the “edgy athiest” persona.
I mean, is quietly walking away from that the only mature answer? Is it not right to get mad if the circumstances that made you lose your faith were enraging? Of all the reasons to straight up hate Christianity, is a good reason for it, if only in the immediate moment, not in being personally wronged by the arm of it that exists in your personal life, like say an abusive shelter?
Because I lost my faith the same way I lost interest in Youtube guys on my Recommendations list: they just phased out of mind. For me to be as angry in the same way as Joyce would be weird, in that there’s a lot about the institution of Christianity as a political and culture force in North America I have a beef with but not any individual Christian who processes their faith as a personal aspect of their lifestyle. As a matter of human decency, I think it’s important I respect the religious faith of all individuals even if faith is something I don’t really understand anymore, because it’s not something I have to understand to respect.
But, I sure as hell wasn’t Joyce, who grew up in a fundamentalist death cult that taught her the Earth is 6000 years old and dinosaurs were placed on the ark and eventually hunted to extinction by humans. Joyce never had faith, the way a Christian doesn’t objectively knows God exists but believes in him for a myriad of reasons, she had a set of inerrant facts she was told were true. All of it was real, all at once, and every part of it had to be as real and as important as the other, or else it would all fall apart.
And then traumatic experience after traumatic experience kept happening to her, and they were done by the authority figures in her life she was brought up to unquestionably obey, until eventually it all caved because the only faith Joyce ever had was in an authority figure telling her what to do.
So now Joyce is an atheist, except she can’t actually bring herself to say out loud to herself that she’s one, and that atheism doesn’t mean “a belief in the non-existence of God”, it means she now has a lack of belief in everything she was told, including the origin of life, her own morality, and even who the hell “Joyce” is as a person, because the Joyce she is was made by that same death cult. She doesn’t have a new set of facts to grasp onto, it’s all just gone.
So Liz comes in and Joyce has the first opportunity ever, at all, to just be mad. She was lied to, bad things happened to her and she kept telling herself it was all God’s plan and it was just random violent chaos. She believed stupid bullshit like the sky sea that protected humans from the sun’s rays and let them live to 900 and it was all wrong, and she’s saying it out loud.
And then Becky intrudes on this private conversation, all of Joyce’s friends judge her without offering even the slightest sympathy or understanding, and right now, doubling down on being right is all Joyce has got even if “being right” means nothing to her at the moment because the only facts she has are that nothing matters, except that’s not “nothing matters” in an aggressively teenage way, nothing matters anymore because the source of her morals was her upbringing that then went on to repeatedly traumatize her over and over.
Look, Joyce is a kid from a fucked up situation and she’s reacting poorly to the loss of everything she’s ever known and now that’s even worse because none of her friends give a shit enough to ask how she’s doing. That’s not “edgy atheist”, that’s getting right and proper furious at the institutions that made her believe and act in a way her peer group constantly mocked her for that they’re now demanding she go back to because she’s making too much of a fuss.
Joyce didn’t have a normal Christian upbringing. For me to be this angry would be for me to get angry at something that was at best a casual part of my childhood, not the dissolution of everything I believed in as so factual that knowing God doesn’t exist anymore is as devastating to my view of reality if math and physics stopped working.
Both Joyce and Liz remind me of myself when I was a brand new atheist. Much more militant and judgmental of religious people, with the belief that anyone who believes in a god is stupid. Eventually I grew up and realized it doesn’t matter if someone else personifies the universe or not, as long as they’re not using their religion as a reason to judge/harm others.
It seemed clear to begin with that both she and Joyce were bluffing about how much experience they had with doing things that their upbringing warned them against doing. Especially since she didn’t respond to Joyce’s weird comments with “wait, what?”
Wait what? What’s so weird about having friends with a rewards program? Which is actually a really cute way of describing that situation. I imagine you have a card or something. You support me emotionally enough times to earn points towards a sex to be redeemed at a time of your choosing. Free 2nd base on your birthday. Long time customer bonuses like being the date at your sister’s wedding.
On one hand that does sound cute. On the other hand having a sex based reward to points earned sounds like a very exploitable dynamic. Though it would be fun to just be like “man thanks for driving me home, I’m so exhausted. Want a blowjob later?”
Hey! Let’s not judge people for their personal grooming habits or fetishes. We don’t control where our hair chooses to grow, just how we react to it. So maybe Joe doesn’t manscape everywhere and maybe Joyce is into that and maybe so is Liz. To each their own.
I’m just saying that as the body hair below the navel tends to be referred to with specific terms it left me with the mental image not of someone who simply makes their own choices about what hair to shave off and more of chest hair that’s somehow reaching Rapunzel lengths.
My guess is that Liz was being bullied for being religious and is desperately trying to change. She appears to be going for the trope where the innocent girl next door is secretly a party animal and sex goddess in an attempt to bolster her self image.
My prediction is that Joe is going to do the right thing, and hate it.
Maybe, but before he can complain to Danny, he has to come up with an acceptable to Joe reason to give Danny for why he said no. And that could be a problem. This situation has all that he’s worked for, the sex tape as advertising, a young lady to break in, sex with a lack of emotional commitment. Is he just going to tell Danny he has unrequited feels for Joyce? I don’t think so.
I absolutely do. At 19, a roadtrip to Utah with a couple buddies and the first time without parents around to judge me and all I wanted to do was get LAID. But you’re still “in the closet”, still fighting with your beliefs. No idea HOW to make that happen, especially under the tiny timetable you might have to figure it out. And then there’s your friends, who probably don’t have the same thoughts that you do, you’ve never really discussed that with them, because “sex is a sacred act, we don’t talk about it”.
So you find a dance club, that’s how it works, right?
And you don’t know what to do, and your friends are uncomfortable so you just leave and never have sex for another three years.
My take is that Liz was still at least nominally religious come her first semester at Ball State, but keeping up appearances with her stepmom opened her up to a lot of bullying* from her peers based on who she presented herself as, and she felt stuck between lying for someone else’s sake and how everyone else kept her boxed in, so now that she’s away from that for a bit she’s trying to make the most of it.
*I say bullying, but given the extremely blatant parallels between her and Joyce, I’d wager that bullying consisted largely of “you’re a fundie weirdo so we’ll laugh about that as much as we want, but you still have to be that person even as we tell you it’s wrong”, like Joyce’s friends put her through.
Also goddamn I think Liz is so hot though. Like against my better judgement she’s really doing it for me. The way she’s arching her back in the last 2 panels especially jeez louise.
You can think someone is incredibly hot and simultaneously dislike pretty much everything else about them with the knowledge that getting involved with them could be a horrible mistake.
Yep, same! This is incredibly humanizing. It’s what I suspected might be going on – that Liz was overcompensating just as hard as Joyce – but we had no confirmation of it until now.
Yeah no her pose in the last two panels is definitely doing it for me. Whenever you feel like getting back into drawing I’m really looking forward to seeing your take on her
She’s physically attractive to be sure, but the stuff she’s just said in this strip would kinda ruin my attraction to her if I was in Joe’s position here.
Oh boy, she and Joyce really were just providing a positive feedback loop for the other’s new negative traits. Joe should really just compromise and give her another gummy vitamin before turning her to Sarah’s room. At least that way Liz would be high… on rebellion.
Honestly, I don’t think Joe is going to be up to it. Liz isn’t really dishing up anything sexy by telling Joe what essentially boils down to, “I’m a real grown-up, for real! Let me sleep with you to reinforce my new self-identity!”. It’s just got some really awkward/off-putting vibes, at least to me. Now, you’re right that Liz can have all the casual, guilt-free sex she wants. It’s not the sex that bothers me here. It’s all the weird baggage around it.
The possibility is definitely there, yeah. But honestly, Liz hardly knows Joe past the fact that he was the dude from a sex-tape and her sister happens to know him (and for what it’s worth, Sarah thinks Joe is an arsehole). From my point of view, even if Joe is into the idea after all the weird Liz just put out in the open, he should just take a pass, if only for all of the social consequences he’ll face if he doesn’t.
Ah yes, negative traits such as “resenting the harsh restrictions and constant negative feedback from a religious upbringing” and “wants to stop being treated like a weird helpless baby.”
Liz’s negative trait is wanting to have sex to assert herself, y’all are tripping.
Yeah I wouldn’t consider those negative traits either. Though it’s very clear now that both Liz and Joyce were only pretending to know about sex and drugs and stuff when they were hanging out earlier.
Yeah, Spencer really put words in my mouth with that comment. Honestly, I was referring to the fact that Liz and Joyce really seem to be providing positive feedback toward their(Joyce’s at least) new propensity for lying about sex and drugs to look cool, as well as just acting like assholes. They can certainly push back against their upbringing and assert themselves as adults, but the way they’re going about it is unpleasant for those around them. Not that they necessarily owe people around them comfort, but there are social consequences for being unpleasant to be around.
I don’t believe I ever mentioned Becky, but thank you for your concern. Becky is her own can of worms, yeah, but Joyce being an asshole without Becky present is still Joyce being an asshole. Sarah obviously finds it grating. Joe is seems uncomfortable as well. I, as a reader of the comic, also find her new behavior unpleasant, and very much wish she would see a therapist, as she seems genuinely conflicted, angry, and adrift right now. Joyce is clearly going through some stuff right now, and grew up an unideal environment, but Joyce is still responsible for her own actions and doesn’t get to hurt people without repose just because she’s hurting.
Liz, I know this is a moment for you here, but the “I’ve seen your work” makes you sound more like an art dealer than a whatever you think an amoral atheist who gets laid sounds like.
IIRC, Sarah made a point of telling Joe that Liz was 18. Not exactly giving him permission, but at least suggesting she was more or less resigned to the idea.
In the very next strip she very forcefully urged Joe “Don’t try to bang my little sister”. And I don’t think she would react well to “I didn’t have to try.”
On the other hand, Liz is a mentally-competent and (actually) sober adult who is entitled not to have her sister controlling her sex life. And Joe is also entitled not to have Sarah — who is not even his friend — controlling his sex life.
So Joe ought to say “No, thanks” to Liz because he doesn’t want to bang her. And he has to not worry about the fact that there is no way to wrap that up that isn’t insulting or at least patronising to Liz.
And then he has to come to terms with the fact that the reason that he doesn’t want to bang Liz is that he has a severe crush on Joyce, but that since Joyce has already said “no” and has recently been treating him as a nigh-unbearable pervert it would be harassment to approach Joyce and creepy to nurse his crush while not telling her.
I don’t agree with you about that. She’s a sober, competent young adult who understands what’s involved, feels horny, and is making a forthright request for sex. She’s doing it here, now, and in this way because her family, her “friends” on FogeyBook, and her condescending peers at Ball State won’t let her do it in her usual haunts. We ought to be on her side, not theirs.
“Looking back on it…He had a nice guy shirt at the time but…I now realize it was pointing to his left. He wasn’t a nice guy at all! He was just in proximity of one”
“I’m so glad you’re finally coming to terms with that.”
“No, I don’t need more weed drugs, I think I need less. Fewer. Something like that. Either you are having trouble with language or I am having a stroke.”
It is an interesting ethical point. Since the placebo effect is real I think you have to treat a person intoxicated by the placebo effect as intoxicated, for ethical purposes. (Not for medical purposes, obviously.)
On the other hand, Liz doesn’t know what being high is like, so the placebo effect in this case is… twice-removed? Or something? I don’t even know. She’s not acting like she’s high, she’s… acting like she thinks she would act if she were high?
I’m not sure, but I don’t think the placebo effect is a case of acting, or that it is capable of conforming to an arbitrary expectation. I think it probably has a definite physiological basis with a limited range of effects.
That said, a kid did get blind falling-down drunk on placebo at my twelfth birthday party, and that looked an awful lot like him acting out a parental example.
It’s not acting, but it’s also not a real chemical effect. It’s closer to your expectations fooling your body into mimicking the effect. If you fooled someone into thinking they’d taken some kind of recreational drug while they had no idea what that drug was supposed to do, they wouldn’t correctly invent the proper effects. They might feel something based on their generic broad expectations for such drugs.
True, but you can definitely feel like someone wants to sleep with you for the wrong reason. Which is weird to say cuz my only “pro” for having sex with Liz is “that’d be fun”. But “I wanna fuck you cuz I wasn’t allowed to and I’m lashing out” is kind of a downer. Hard to put into words.
Sorry if I seem like a negative Nelly for saying this, but can’t she also be having fun too?
By implying that someone is doing X, Y, Z just for some kind of “revenge”, I kinda feel like you’re allowing their former group to take that away from them, which is kinda insensitive if you ask me. And all while they’re just beginning to discover their identity away from the group, and enjoy their newfound freedom.
True, but it shouldn’t be the first thing out of her mouth. That just feels…I dunno a bit immature? Like if you were out with friends and one guy was like “I never drank alcohol before. Gimmie a glass” vs. “I was never allowed to drink alcohol and I wanna get blitzed off my ass” It’s a bit too…eager for lack of a better word. At the very least they should take it slow.
True. But at the same time, if a hose is repressed and then suddenly goes on full blast over everyone, don’t blame the hose. Blame the one(s) who repressed the hose.
For over a decade.
And who are still actively repressing the hose every chance they get.
It’s not the hose’s FAULT. Nobody is saying that. But a full blast hose isn’t always what you want and you want to at least get it under control so it’s not whipping around and breaking shit. Y’know keep a tight grip on that hose.
Yeah at the same time, you kinda feel bad for the hose, not only because of all the repression they had to go through, but also because no one wants to opt for all the extra work that comes with it, or deal with it any more than they have to so they can get back to their lives. Who can learn to love a hose?
But thankfully, there are many other hoses out there who are willing also to match their speed and do all the things they want to do together.
I guess that little thing I just wrote there kind of warms my heart…
You could also blame the person who took a repressed hose and opened it full tilt. It would be much better to slowly release it than to loose it all at once.
It doesn’t feel like she wants to because she wants to, or because it’d be fun, imo. If she’s not supposed to be convincing herself more than Joe here in a bad way, then the writing’s really missing the mark.
https://imgur.com/a/uQZLBcz
Also I wanted to draw Liz for tonight but I couldn’t really finish in time. Might try again tommorow. I feel like there’s this “x” factor keeping me of getting her to look QUITE as good as I wanted.
I can’t quite put my figner on it. I guess the easiest way to put it is that, when I draw I tend to do my best to copy the person’s art style somewhat. Obviously with fanart I allow flurishes of my own style to come up too but I always want to get what the character’s main appeal is for ME into my art. Ie. How I draw Billie a bit rounder than Willis tends to, or give Amber slightly more defined muscules.
But I dunno, when it comes to Liz I just am not satisfied with how I draw her. In so many words the way Willis draws her instantly sets off my “awoooga *wolf whistle* slams hammer into head* vibes. But I can’t recreate that feeling in my own art and I’m not sure what I’m doing “wrong”.
It’s not bad on a technical level (well it is a little). Moreso I can’t figure out what I…want out of it, artistically.
That’s the way I’ve been for every single appealing character I’ve ever tried to draw, from anime to web comics to video games and you name it!
At least you’ve had success in drawings of characters that you yourself find appealing! No matter how hard I tried with any of my art, it always felt like some inferior product to me.
I guess it might be because I’m not that good an artist, but I somehow also always felt that trying to make something that arouses yourself personally, is kinda like trying to tickle yourself, you know?
That’s actually kinda the reason why I started sharing some art around here. I actually kind of intended to make something for YOU in particular (and also Red Balloon), because I figured, “hey, if I can’t please myself with what I make, at least I can try giving OTHERS what they’d like, and feeling the joy of knowing you’ve made their day”.
Sorry if that seems kinda tangential or weird, it’s just my take on this whole joy of creation.
Naw it’s nice to talk to other artists about it. It’s…sucky bumping up against your own limitations and it can be discouraging. Lord knows I’m having trouble pushing past it. But the only way to get better is to keep bumping up against it. Keep sucking at it until you don’t suck at it as much. That’s how I got where I am now.
I don’t even think I’m that much of an artist. Considering the process I use with Photoshop and not, I feel like I make the art equivalent of YouTube Poops.
Speaking of which, sorry if you said this already but I didn’t catch it, but is any of your own art… like, AROUSING arousing to you?
In that regard, did any of my pieces set you off like that too?
So, something I’ve realized is that a lot of artists aren’t turned on that much by their own art. I can get super into the ideas and sometimes get into older art I’ve done but more often than not I’m more aroused by the idea of the drawing than the art itself. I have gotten quite fond on a lot of my DOA art lately. Especially that picture of Amber and Dorothy hugging. That’s like my favorite drawing I’ve done of both of them.
It’s also worth noting I never go full on NSFW sex scene with my art cuz I’m not good at it. Meaning most of my stuff peters out at pinups and teases.
It’s so good and relieving to know I’m not alone in this creator’s conundrum!
I guess the idea is the most fun of any project, no matter what it is. The rest is just work, and even when you’ve finished, most of the beauty is inevitably only enjoyed by OTHER people.
Speaking of which, do you think any of my pieces are making it in that **arousing** kind of direction? For you in particular? ’cause that’s kind of what I’m after.
Not to be weird, it’s just that I really like your art ( a little bit to much, sometimes ), and I just wanted a way to really thank you, to give back, you know? It’s just that it meant that much to me.
Real talk it kinda falls into that grey area cuz…well…it is kinda still my own art. Granted it’s recontextualized and that makes it a bit hotter. I enjoy seeing it though. But nothing has quite “gotten me” yet. Sorry.
Thanks for being honest with me, that really means a lot coming from you!
That’s kinda the reason why I see myself as the artist equivalent of a YouTube Pooper.
But while I’m not the best artist in the world, I have another skill that’ll allow me to make something that I think a lot of folks here are REALLY gonna enjoy, including you.
Who knows, I might just try a little something right on time for the end of No Nut November! Maybe with Liz in bondage, if you’re into that? Who knows?
I’ll say this. I’m not a huge bondage guy. It’s just something I have a passing fancy for. If I’m being honest I’d probably place it on the lower end of my weird fetishes I’ve got.
You think you’ve got weird fetishes? I’ve got ones that I think are SUPER weird, and if I’m being realistic, I think at least a third of everyone here has one they think is like that too.
For a while know, I’ve been entertaining this idea where artists tell each other their weird fetishes and then make and trade that specially tailored art with each other, the same way neighbors used to exchange baked goods?
Sorry if that seems weird. It’s just a thought I had.
Do you want to make Liz look a bit more aggressive? Perhaps a touch more predatory or at least proactive and dynamic?
If so perhaps slightly wider shoulders and sharper features would do it — face a little more heart-shaped than Lucy round, with a slightly pointed chin and nose. Just a little bit more fox and less rabbit.
I think u might be drawing Liz to “innocent” I feel like I would need to see more examples of u drawing her but when I compare her to your drawings of Billie/Jennifer something is off. I think in order for Liz to come across as Liz she needs an air of forbidden sexiness. Give her some bedroom eyes and assentuate her curves more just like when u draw Billie. Your so close I can feel it
I’m now assuming that Liz was actually spewing all the Anti-Christian BS she was doing because she was trying to impress JOYCE. This is basically exactly where Joyce was a few weeks ago, comic strip wise (maybe days). She’s overcompensating and wanting to be “free” as a way to deal with the loss of her faith.
I feel like Joyce and Liz traveled separate paths out of faith that led them to a converging point, i.e., Christians are all dumb for believing. The issue is that the impetus for that is so different: Joyce has reasoned that part of her faith cannot be true, therefore none of it can, therefore all Christians are stupid for believing. Liz, on the other hand, seems to have reasoned that faith was stopping her from having fun and she wants to have fun therefore her faith was wrong and Christians are stupid for not giving it up to have fun.
At the point that they’re at, it looks the same. They sit around talking about how great life is now that they’re free and how dumb Christians are, but it’s very different a little ways down the path. Liz will drink and have sex and do drugs because those were all things Good Christian Girls Don’t Do. I don’t know where Joyce’s path will lead, but I think she’d still be very uncomfortable with all those things, if not trying to come up with a secular reason that they’re wrong. And yes, I know she told Becky to have sex because faith is all made up and the points don’t matter, but things are often different from what you tell others to what you do yourself.
Given she took a vitamin and thinks its weed, I’m not sure that Liz has ever done ANYTHING naughty so we don’t know what her experience with them would be.
I’m not sure Liz is actually all that eager or ready to do those things. In today’s comic she looks like she’s trying to convince herself as much as Joe.
I think she’s genuinely eager (to do all those things that are sinful and bad and forbidden but really fun). She just has almost no actual experience, and is trying to hide that until she can get some. Like, right now.
Maybe, though it’s worth remembering that we don’t know anything of Liz’s journey. Our view of Joyce would be very different if all we knew was what we saw her say to Liz in this storyline.
Joyce also had her own little flirtation with being bad because she was an atheist and it didn’t matter – the thing with Jacob. It’s not any clearer that Liz will keep on down this path than it was that Joyce would keep going down it.
Joyce went after Jacob while she was still identifying as a Christian, and the payoff there was that she was understanding that it mattered when she hurt people outside of any kind of divine judgment, because she couldn’t hurt him and then be forgiven by God later.
Also Liz isn’t doing anything wrong here, oh my god, she wants to get laid and smoke weed.
I’m talking specifically about the posing as his girlfriend part, not the entire thing. By that point, though she hadn’t explicitly said she was no longer a believer it was well after her Mullins dream and it was the very next day she talked to Dorothy about how she’d thought it would be so freeing to be an atheist, but you still cared about people’s feelings.
She’s never, as far as I can remember, said anything about being able to hurt people because she could then be forgiven by God.
Joyce was still identifying as Christian at the time, but it wasn’t “I can sin and it’s fine because God will forgive me” but that she thought sinning was fine since there was no judgment, and then it turned out she felt horrible anyway.
Still “identifying” as Christian in the sense that she wasn’t admitting it, but definitely well into losing her faith. She was talking in that scene about trying out (her wacked notion of) atheism.
Y’all put too much weight for “Anti-Christian BS” on some teenagers making fun of the most powerful religious institution in the entire continent they live on, and that’s before getting into any gripes with how the tendrils of that religious institution creep into American culture to the detriment of human decency, could probably describe as legitimate, and how those gripes can influence breaking away from said religious institution not only when you observe them, but live them yourself.
It’s anti-religious bias in the context of one particular religion in one particular setting where it’s a groundswell for cultural norms that cause harm to people like me all the time.
I respect your personal relationship with your faith as a matter of human decency. I don’t need to respect anything about how Christianity has so much cultural influence in North America that I still need to be polite when discussing whether or not certain people deserve to be alive.
And it’s still bigotry. A lot of people have justifications for hating X group of people and a lot of the times its used for a pretty awful mindset. Mind you, I used to have pretty toxic beliefs about other belief structures until I had my mind opened up.
Did those other belief structures hold enormous amounts of power and influence in how the country you live in is ran and how it affects the culture and lives of its people, often to the detriment of its marginalized and unwanted citizens?
I’m not getting into another discussion about this for my own sake but i do want to make my position the past few strips clear bc the idea of anyone thinking i simp for Christianity makes me physically ill ( i have religious trauma too! Yay!).
My issue was never with Joyce having it out for the Christian religion as a whole, i get that. My thing was specifically her being. That way i guess? (Hard to think of a good way to describe it without sounding hostile) about it with Becky specifically. I went through a very similar “religion is stupid” phase when i was younger but i was still pretty careful about it with my religious friends bc, even if the church messed me up i didn’t want to take it out on people i cared about because of their personal relationship with faith. I actually had a friend in a similar position to Becky (he lost his parents and clearly found a lot of comfort religion) and he was definitely a dick I’ll be honest, because we were 13 and all awful people, but i did still learn to be mindful about how i talked about my issues with religion around him
Trying to word this as carefully as I can so as not to drag you into it, or make you feel dragged.
I think the idea of “Joyce says religion is stupid” that’s come about in the commentariat since the Faith-Off is kinda focusing too much on the endpoint, where Joyce is angry and says things some teenage atheists on the internet have said and it resulted in Becky being sad and Sarah being disappointed, without really understanding Joyce and how genuinely crippling her lack of belief in God is for her and how badly traumatized she’s been, we just never noticed because she has big blue dinner plate eyes and a triangle smile and only ever got mad at jerk authority figures.
And this part here is teetering to the edge for me, because I’m making an assumption of the commentariat and that pretty much always blows up in my face, but I think most of us had a religious fallout the way I did; welp, guess I don’t believe in God anymore. What’s for dinner?
For me to say the things Joyce is saying would actually be me being an edgy atheist (you know, if I’m talking about the concept of belief and faith and religious practitioners and not, say, real world religious institutions and the damage they’ve caused), but that’s because religion never mattered to me, and I think a lot of us still went through that “edgy atheist” phase anyway, because when you’re young you are always a cringe edgelord and the cringiest edgelords of all were the ones who tried not to be, and I was indeed the cringiest edgelord.
And I think from there, we’re kind of applying our owned lived experience, where we were edgy atheists to something that didn’t cause most of us enormous amounts of pain (you’ve shared here and in other posts that this isn’t at all descriptive of your own experience), and once we wised up and realized theists we’re just ordinary blokes who put their pants on one leg at a time, like the actual evils we were lashing out against were just one part of the picture, we felt embarrassed and tried to refine that righteousness against persecution by religious institutions into something more meaningful without stepping on the toes of the folks who just go to church on Sunday.
But, that’s not Joyce, and, bluntly, religion has done no good by her. She believed in farces her friends constantly mocked her for, her mom valued her less than a man who pointed a gun at her face and kidnapped her, she had to be the protective guardian of her best friend because the people they were told to trust and obey without question were causing her immense and constant pain, and all of this happened for stuff that Joyce didn’t have faith in, she did not feel God’s presence, she was told he’s there and she just accepted that the way I accept that gravity works.
And she got to be mad about all of this for the first time in her life, and it blew up as bad as it did because her and Becky are totally co-dependent and then Joyce was forced to defend her newfound beliefs in an argument where the two of them were using the same words to have two separate conversations against the other who lived in their heads who thought and processed their belief in the exact same way, except Joyce’s newfound beliefs aren’t “God isn’t real”, they’re “every single thing I’ve ever been told was a lie and I have nothing to replace them.”
Joyce is as angry as she is because, between Becky, Dorothy and Sarah being completely unable to communicate with her for a second, believing she’s right is all she’s got, and it’s not like she thinks she’s right about anything in particular, because for her to be right would mean knowing what she’s right about other than the complete and total destruction of everything she was indoctrinated into.
And all of this, it’s real as hell, as real as it was for me to vaguely saunter away from believing in God and going to church.
Damn, harsh. Honestly that’s one of my big fears when it comes to sex. That someone looks back at the experience like “oops, shouldn’t have done that”.
One of the things that you have to learn as you grow up is to be less embarrassed and less worried about it. Because fear of being embarrassed is a paralysing obstacle to living, loving, and laughing. You can’t be dignified all the time. Chagrin is just something you have to get used to, a bit.
So Liz was faking it. And you know it because buried under there was the need to hide. She’s trying to be rebellious but not really showing that rebellion in full because she’s counting on no one ever knowing her little secret tryst in this whole other city.
All righty. So she’s not as shallow as first thought.
I mean, she still has issues but now there’s something moderately more to her now.
Ah, sudden realization. Sarah doesn’t just want Joyce to stop changing because she loved her positivity, but because Joyce and Liz are on similar train wreck tracks. Trying desperately to non-conform to everything they once were. It’s hard enough to watch it with one person, but Sarah is getting it in stereo. Not that they aren’t allowed to change or grow as they want but now I see why Sarah was pushing back. She’s eating it twice over.
Agree. I kinda want more Sarah backstory now. Sarah clearly got the hell over whatever religious upbringing was gone through. How much of it was shared? Which parent’s mother bought her that vibrator?
Maybe Sarah’s just a misanthropic asshole who needs someone around her to be happy so she can rely on them while never pulling any emotional weight.
Like maybe this is less “Sarah was right to fear Joyce’s downfall!” and more” damn Sarah you’re on little sister #2 and you still haven’t figured this shit out?”
Oh Liz is much different from what I originally thought. I figured she was further along the whole “de-sheltering” process but she’s basically at the same stage as Joyce. Hell, Joyce even seems a bit less “innocent” (using this loosely) than Liz since at least she could tell the difference between an edible and a daily vitamin. It would be kinda cruel of Joe to sleep with her knowing she has the mentality of an edgy 15 year old.
I think she’s further along than Joyce in some areas, while also being further behind Joyce in others. The biggest likely being that it seems Liz’s upbringing and relationship to Christianity, while restrictive/sheltering, wasn’t quite as cultish/toxic as Joyce’s, thus it seems like moving to secularism was less of a traumatic process for her than it was for Joyce. At the same time that very trauma also has exposed Joyce to the harsh realities of the transitionary process and is more aware of the ugly sides of the “real world”.
This too. Liz’s outward Christian projection vs Sarah’s more laid back attitude towards religion may be due to a difference in upbringing since they’re half sisters, after all.
Also, Liz says something about posting Jesus memes to keep her stepmom off her case, adding another parental figure into the mix. Liz and Sarah share a mother, so if Liz spent her teen years with her father and stepmom, she grew up in a very different, probably far more religious environment than Sarah.
I guess it is worth remembering that if Liz is 18, then she and Sarah are just two years apart. Either there was a very amicable split or their dad was fooling around when Sarah was like, 1.
better to double up (methods, not condoms!!) though. Also might still be in the evangelical framework of ‘condoms don’t make a difference anyway’ (although at least Joe isn’t)
actually (replying to myself because I don’t know who I mean to say this to) this reminds me a lot of the arrested development “show me your secular ways” bit
Don’t have sexy times with someone (or someones) with severe emotional (albeit temporary) issues because there’s a good chance you’ll regret it because the other person may not be able to handle the intense feelings that come with sharing such an emotional and physical act and they may then act out in a way that you do not expect because of the difficulty they have in processing those feelings and this may include but not limited to stalking, jealousy, violence towards other, self harm and depression
A “Yes, but let’s take it slow” would do wonders here. Show her the ropes in a very mature and experienced manner. No need to rush in. Let’s take our time and let me get to know you as a person and you get to know me. And then we’ll fuck.
It’s something I hope I get. I’m a 27 year old virgin so the ODDS that my partner will know what she’s doing are pretty damn high. I would absolutely love to just be shown the ropes in a slow and steady manner and really learn about each other.
And then we’ll fuck.
If you’re interested, I have a story of sleeping with a prostitute at age 25. Only time *I* had sex and…holy hell, it can feel empty without emotional intimacy, even if the girl is attractive and freindly.
Exactly! I really want to like the person I have my first time with. Like someone I can be “friends” with and also do the sex. Friends with benefits is my goal just because a friend that you can have sex with sounds super ideal to me. I like friends.
Same. But I’d beware of the “friends with benefits” route, if only because the “friends” part isn’t often emphasized enough. Like, sex is fun, but so is masturbation with toys and lube. The kicker comes from taking time to separate the pervasive idea that “sex = love” in of itself.
Yeah — I can see Joe realizing that he’s a horndog but a responsible one, and that Liz could pick someone much worse if she’s in the mood to fling herself at anyone who’s potentially interested. So, slightly awkward lecture about consent and birth control because you know the abstinence only sex ed didn’t cover it, followed by a hookup that’ll stop the second she decides she’s not actually as ready as she thought.
Liz is looking up at something close to her (Joe’s face). It does kind of give the appearance of her being cross eyed but, when your gaze is focused, sometimes your eyes go inwards
You know there’s something else I also go to wonder. Joe has gotten with a lot of girls before but has he ever punched someone’s V-card before? This has got to be new territory.
I have a feeling Joe’s not gonna have sex with her. Not because ‘it might upset Joyce’ (they’re not together) but because HE has feelings for Joyce and now he doesn’t wanna.
Right. And then he is going to have to deal with the fact that there is a definite creep factor involved in saving yourself for someone who is not into being saved for.
I don’t think you have to be saving yourself for someone to not want to have sex with someone while crushing on someone else. Sometimes that really does kill the desire.
Sure. If Joe doesn’t want to bang Liz now because he has a crush on Joyce he ought to say “no, thanks”, just as if he didn’t want to bang her for any other reason.
But also, if Joe has a crush on Joyce that he feels he cannot act on because he has already wreck his chance with Joyce and she despises him (they way she says she does), but that makes him disinclined to other women he ought to do something to treat that, such as counselling or hexameter. Because nursing the crush and waiting for Joyce to change is creepy.
Joe doesn’t actually think he has a chance with Joyce.
More to the point, he’s a little glad about that, because if he ever started dating her the possibility, and thus the inevitability, of betraying and hurting her now exists.
Right, so refusing other women because of his crush on Joyce [unattainable] would be super unhealthy, and he ought to do something about it, like counselling if necessary, or hexameter.
You don’t need to be nursing the crush and waiting for someone to change to have a crush on someone you don’t think will like you and not be interested in anyone else. Sometimes you just gotta wait the crush out.
Wait it out or work it out, but not nurse it. The more you rehearse or reiterate in your mind the though that you love some particular person the more of a habit that becomes and the slower you wait it out.
Sure, but I don’t think Joe’s going to do that – I think he’s going to say no to Liz because he’s into Joyce and not feeling it but I don’t think there’s going to be anything creepy that happens.
Also because because Liz is right now basically shouting that she’s not at all ready and that this will be an emotional mess, not a casual, purely physical hookup. Old Joe might have looked past that, taken her up on it anyway then kicked her out the door rather than deal with the aftermath. New Joe, who’s trying to be better about hurting women, can’t do that.
I wouldn’t call it innately, but having sex when you aren’t ready can absolutely be traumatizing. To me, Liz is showing a lot of signs that she could wake up in the morning and find herself feeling like she made a huge mistake.
Maybe when it’s obvious the person saying it’s not emotionally in the best of places, same as being drunk or high? Chrissakes, earlier in the comic those were literally the three reasons Joe gave as examples of what he’d find valid reasons to turn down someone propositioning him.
‘Cause it sounds to me like you’re seeing her verbally and eagerly confirm her desire to have sex, and then going “oh but actually here’s why it’ll emotionally traumatize her.”
If I said I could lift 400lbs with my right hand, does that make is so? I know this may seem to you like it won’t traumatize her, and I could be wrong in my take, but I’ve said similar things, while sober, and woken up the next morning feeling awful about it. I felt so weird and uncomfortable with it that I honestly didn’t tell anyone about it for months, and even then it was only because they had found out from the other person. So no, her verbally saying “heck yeah. I’m ready” does not mean that she’s ready.
Yes, and if I had anyone coming to me saying those things I would choose to not risk letting them go through with it with me. The reason is that I don’t want other people to go through that if I can stop it. Also, I never said she couldn’t make her own choices or go through with this. I’m just saying that I think the best thing for Joe to do, if he’s able to see the potential for trauma here that I do, would be to turn her down, for her sake. Based on your flippant response, I’m sure you don’t think that’s a valid excuse to turn her down, but I assure you, it is.
Also, you’re right I did choose to have sex when I wasn’t ready. I know that. It doesn’t make the pain I dealt with because of it any less difficult, and I don’t need some person on the internet to tell me that it was my choice, thank you very much.
I do actually think it’s super goddamn wack to try and decide that someone who’s a legal adult, sober, and verbally expressing eagerness to have sex because sex is a thing she wants to do is actually not competent enough to have sex, yeah.
I’m not a therapist, I have no ability to talk about your feelings nor do I particularly want to, but I’m in fundamental disagreement with the idea of overriding someone else’s stated desire to have sex on the grounds of, actually, they don’t really want it or it’d be bad if they did. If I myself don’t want to do it because I think it’d end badly, well, yep, that’s a reason, and a reason is all you need to decide why you don’t want to have sex even if that reason is no reason at all, but I’m not into taking ownership of someone else’s life.
Saying no is not taking ownership of their life. Me saying no to someone is not me saying they can’t have sex. It’s me saying they can’t have sex with me. If the reason for that is I think they will regret it afterwards, guess what, I’m saying no. If they decide to find someone else to have sex with after that, that’s on them, but I will not engage in something with someone that I think they could regret for the rest of their lives. If you think that makes me a terrible person, so be it.
That sounds like you don’t want to have sex with them as a matter of your personal judgment, as in how it’d affect you, as in how your opinion of having sex with someone is being influenced by whether or not it feels right to you.
Not that you totally want to have sex but this other completely competent and aware adult shouldn’t be allowed to choose for herself.
No one is saying that two completely consenting adults can’t have sex. If you gathered that from any of what I said, you misinterpreted the point.
You assumed that people were pulling from nowhere the notion that Liz could be traumatized, and I merely suggested to you that it was a possibility, despite her outwardly saying that she was ready. Me stating that was a possibility was never a means to say, don’t have sex with people even if they say they are ready. It was me trying to say if you truly doubt someone is ready do have sex, and you don’t want them to go through any trauma because of it, maybe don’t have sex with them. And I’m sure someone is going to suggest that this is Joe we are talking about here and he doesn’t care, but I think he’s made a lot of strides in that direction. I think if he sees the possibility of Liz being traumatized, he would make the choice to turn her down, feelings for Joyce or not.
The “possibility” of her being traumatized is still taking ownership of her capacity for judgment if you’re doing it because you’re deciding she’s not ready as opposed to “I want to walk away from this hot mess.”
Like, this idea of her being traumatized because she fucked a dude she walked up to for the explicit purpose of fucking him, are you doing it for her own good or are you doing it because the situation is making you uncomfortable?
If I’m uncomfortable doing something with someone because I don’t think its good for them, is there a difference? Does that difference matter since its still my choice to say no? Would you be arguing the same stance if I said I’m not going to let a person use my yard to throw dynamite into a fire solely because I think they could be hurt because of it? (that example may seem random, but I’ve been told by multiple people its a fun past time of theirs)
Yep, you got it. “I don’t want to have sex because I think it’ll be bad for her” can mean a number of things like your personal discomfort, existing or unfamiliar relationship, literally any reason you want as it pertains to your choice. If you think it’s bad for her then you’re removing yourself from the equation, which is to say that you’re not against her having sex, you’re against her having sex with you.
But that still factors you into it, that’s still a decision being made on whether or not to bang where your feelings matter. That’s not you being totally willing to fuck her and other partners and then taking ownership of her ability to decide for herself, where you’re totally able to decide but she can’t.
To draw back to the in-comic scenario where this exact thing happened: Danny was propositioned by Billie, he turned her down (for a healthy reason, we’ll get to that), and when Joe asked he started moralizing about how he wouldn’t sleep with her because he “had his principles” and that he wanted to have sex with her because “he’s not dead”, but he “didn’t want to take advantage of her.”
Which is to say that Danny decided for Billie that she wasn’t capable of having sex, that he wanted to but he decided for her not that she couldn’t have sex with him, but that she was just incapable of having sex in general, and that her stated intent and eagerness to do so was not something she had any control or insight over. Danny just knew better than Billie on whether or not she could fuck at all. He could decide when to have sex, he’s not dead, after all, but Billie could not.
So Joe called him an idiot and Danny admitted “okay actually I’m just not ready so soon after Dorothy and I’m still hung up on her.”
We haven’t, and I’m not sure what’s hard to grasp about what I’m saying.
You can choose not to have sex with a partner for any reason (say “man, I think this would end badly for X reason”) and also it’s weird to declare a competent, sound, sober, legal adult as incapable of being able to choose to have sex or to be unable to handle it afterwards.
It is absolutely weird to declare a competent, sound, sober, legal adult as incapable of being able to choose to have sex. I think making speculations on how said person might react to the sex isn’t weird though.
If I said, “This would be great for Liz. She’ll be a lot happier with having sex here with someone she just met, and its good that she can do it away from Ball State too,” would you consider that weird, since its speculating on how she would react to the sex but in a good way? If that is weird what about speculating that Joyce will be upset about this because she has feelings for Joe? It seems to me like your issue is either that people are speculating about how Liz will react to sex in this situation, or that they’re speculating that she will react poorly. If its the former, what’s so different about speculating on how a character would react to sex vs speculating how a character would react to any other situation?
Also, I know Joyce being upset about it may be a bit unjustified considering how she presented her relation ship with Joe, but I think she will be upset all the same.
I mean yeah speculate away, just don’t go “but what if she reacts badly to it?” as a way to say why she can’t bone someone, like in the context of a real world scenario.
“Liz will be better off with this” sounds sensible to me in that she’s openly declaring her desire for sex but that’s also a conversation that dips into Liz being a fictional character we can make a judgment on how she’d react to sex, as opposed to the real life scenario of respecting sexual agency.
I dunno what speculating about Joyce or Liz has to do with the topic of “whether or not a competent, aware, sober, legal adult can decide if they want to have sex”, which is what this whole conversation started about where we were both discussing that in a real life context.
The Joyce question was me trying to gauge at what point the speculation stopped being weird for you, as the speculation seemed to be something you were uncomfortable with. I don’t think anyone here is actually suggesting that “what if she reacts badly to it” is a good reason to try to stop that person from trying to have sex.
I’ve been talking about this in the real world context of “deciding someone else is incapable of sex”, which I thought you were too given how you were talking about it, as opposed to “whether or not Liz the fictional character will be sad about it later.”
I was talking about real life as well. I never said anyone should be barred from having sex if they were of legal age and in their right mind though. And I stand by that you shouldn’t bar someone from sex in that scenario, unless you are the person they want to have sex with (if they are attempting with someone else, it’s not your place to stop them) and you feel uncomfortable with doing so for any reason, including on the grounds that you don’t think they are ready for sex.
Having kinda personally been in Liz’s shoes about this one specific thing (less due to religious upbringing and more due to being a known weirdo in high school who suddenly got kinda cute in college) I can definitively say that saying ‘sex would be awesome!’ does not necessarily mean you’re ready for *all the things that can come with* sex. It might mean you’re super ready to have it with someone who will be exactly what you’re looking for (and Joe might actually be that here by pure coincidence), but I also suspect she has some lingering ideas about how it will go, and would be pretty upset if it doesn’t go that way.
I don’t know that for sure, of course, but the “like it’s no big deal” line reads to me like it very much is a big deal to her still but she’s pretending like it’s not because that’s who she thinks she SHOULD be, because she’s secular now and that’s what secular girls DO.
This is all to say, she might be secular and she might want to have sex, but she might not realize being a little more careful about the partner she chooses beyond “is cute” and “is here and presumably willing to have sex” will give her a better shot at a good first experience. It’s not something she has to get out of the way as soon as possible.
What’s ready enough to have sex, if not deciding you are ready? If your expectations for sex extend beyond the act, is that not something you have to come to terms with independent of whether or not you can? Is it harmful to rush into it, or is it only harmful because of the cultural narrative of “when is it right to fuck?” we’ve built?
Over in Shortpacked!, Ken built up this whole narrative about how losing his virginity was something he was gonna do with Malaya when he finally asked her out. Then he banged Conquest because they both wanted to and he had a great time and then stopped pining after Malaya because Malaya is a hemorrhoid and started hanging out with Lucy.
Hm I do agree with you, so maybe there are two questions here.
1–is she ready for sex? Sure. Regardless of her reasons, that’s something that no one else gets to decide for her. So if she’s not just trying to convince herself , and she’s sincere in believing she’s ready, then she’s ready. (Side note: An actual person I would take at their word until they tell me differently. A character in fiction has a little more room for speculation since their words are chosen for them to convey a narrative, and since I can’t ask for clarification directly)
2–would she ultimately look back with more fondness at her first time (or first few times) if she took a little more time to either get past some of her own internalized cultural hangups or find someone a little more emotionally safe, before doing the actual thing? Maybe or maybe not! It depends on a lot of variables, and she doesn’t strike me as being aware of some of the important ones, and I do think with this approach it’d be mainly down to luck.
As an adult, she’s fully entitled to make decisions that may or may not turn out well for her (and yeah, with Joe, it may very well be a pretty good experience if he’s down!) But I think it’s also fair to question whether those constitute *good* decisions.
All that said, based on what she knows, and what she thinks she knows, Joe isn’t the worst choice to go after like this. He’s unlikely to be outright dangerous. So it all makes sense that from her perspective that she’d decide to do this. But from the perspective of someone who’s been through similar, it looks a lot like a mistake.
Look, just cuz Joe shouldn’t sleep with Liz does not mean he shouldn’t like…make out with her, right? Kissing is still on the table? Maybe 2nd base at most?
Personally I don’t even think that’s a problem. Putting the feelings for Joyce aside for a moment, they’re both old enough to consent. This is kind of the Dina issue all over again where someone can be perceived as immature on infantilized when that’s not the case. If Liz thinks she’s ready than go for it. I imagine this will be the same for Joyce whenever she decides to actually get laid.
Also like consent isn’t a binary it’s an ever present thing so I don’t think Joe would just go to bone town so yeah, making out and grinding could be where they decide to stop which would still be a fun experience.
I kind of want Joe yo do that, and for Danny to see and go ‘wtf?’ Because even if Joe has forgotten, Danny remembers how Joe reacted when he, Danny, turned down Billie-as-was-now-Jennifer for a very similar reason.
Basically I would like Joe to be cornered into talking Feelings with his eternal bestie.
Yeah, I was thinking about that comparison. Very different characters and motivations, but the same sense of “this ticks all the right checkboxes for being okay, but damn are there red flags everywhere.”
God making out and Grinding sounds about where I want this to go now. I wouldn’t mind a slipshine where they just get really hot and heavy but don’t fuck.
Ethically, there’s really nothing wrong with Joe saying yes to this. She’s giving an unequivocal, verbal yes, even if it’s clearly weird and probably more emotional than Joe is comfortable with.
The only reason Joe should really say no is because he’s uncomfortable and thereby is unwilling to consent to this himself. And… that’s up to him.
If Joe doesn’t have a condom supply in his dorm room, I will be extermely displeased.
“Um, I never said I was an atheist. I mean, sure, I don’t believe in Jesus, but that’s because I’m Jewish. (You do know about the existence of Jews, right?)”
Dang can’t believe this character who we already know has to lie about still being faithful to her stepmom has complicated feelings about her religion and adulthood exacerbated through the mockery of her peer group.
Shame that nobody at IU is going through the same. Liz could really bond wit them.
so ethics question time, is it assault if she thinks shes on drugs so she cant consent, but actually wasn’t on drugs so she can, but he gave her the not drugs making her think she was high.
Joe you are allowed to say no. Just because society expects a single young man to be ready for sex at the drop of the hat doesn’t mean you have to go along with it.
Yeah. But Society says that really loud and very often. And it’s not just oneself who hears it, but a lot of women, too. So it ends up being very hard to say “no thanks” without offending or insulting a woman who has screwed up her courage to the sticking-place and made a pass at a man in defiance of what Society expects of her. It’s painful enough to get shot down when Society has taught you to make passes and expect mostly knockbacks. It will be excruciatingly embarrassing for Liz if the certified slut Joe turns down her offer.
I think when Liz gets mad at Joe for turning her down, she’s going to bring up Joyce (“You have sex with her and not me?!?”). And Joe will explain that he and Joyce never had sex, outing Joyce in the process.
So Liz can’t even get away from pretending to be Christian on her own campus full time. She keeps up the act for everyone there? Dang, feel kind of sorry for her. I mean I know she was part of that weird Christian group which if I’m gleaning from past comments right is apparently kind of awful but I wondered if she just used them for photos and a veneer for her step mother/parents at most. Like maybe she dedicated Sundays or whatever and that’s it. This suggests a type of commitment to an act which almost borders on self harm. I mean on some level I can’t blame her: tuition is hell in the US and you do what you gotta do.
Makes sense given her knowledge of multivitamins too. She hasn’t really had an opportunity to use her freedom yet and has weird assumptions. Still has part of her upbringing/past religion eating her brain.
It could be that she just doesn’t want to go through the process of announcing and explaining her new deconversion to all her friends and classmates, at least not right away.
She may want some time to come to terms with the change in herself before telling others about it, for all kinds of reasons. We’ve seen Joyce go through this as well.
Other way around. She’s being condescended at for being a Jesus freak.
Like, maybe Liz’s relation with her faith was that it gave her nothing and was a source of mockery in people she’d otherwise like to get to know, but she’s forced to keep up appearances to please someone with too much control in her life.
Could that be relevant to a certain other character?
Liz isn’t just lying to her stepmom while being free-spirited at Ball State, she’s keeping up appearances with her peers and they’re mocking her for it.
You think Joyce had it bad when everyone around her constantly made fun of her for believing stupid bullshit? That’s probably a lot harder when you don’t even believe in the things you’re saying that you’re getting laughed at for.
I think she would lie to her sister and new acquaintances at IU, if only to try that clout on for size. It would let her be Fun Liz a little while longer, before she has to be Fundie Liz again back at Ball.
(A therapist would be SO FREAKING RICH with this goldmine of issues)
But seriously all this moral extremities everyone stretches for is making me HURT!
LIZ IS A TERRIBLE HUMAN BEING, SHE SAID A MEAN THING IN A PRIVATE CONVERSATION, SHE’S AWFUL!
UGH JOE DON’T HAVE SEX WITH HER *OTHER PEOPLE* WILL BE MAD THAT YOU HAD SEX WITH A CONSENTING YOUNG ADULT!
Ugh Dorthey is literally satan because she expressed disappointment at Joyce’s behavior instead of instantly becoming a wise matriarch and cooing to Joyce to sooth her temper and explain herself perfectly and rationally.
Ya’ll these are teenagers, the fact none of them have gone straight to a bottle of alcohol to drown their feelings is a plus.
PS Joe should not have to get Sarah or anyone elses approval other than Liz’s to have consensual sex with Liz.
LIZ is capable of saying yes, she is under no influence and she wants to do it, if they talk it out and it turns out Joe is actually not comfortable being someone’s first time/ the situation in general that’s perfectly okay for him to say no.
Liz is not entitled to a yes, Sarah definitely isn’t entitled to a consent form, and Joyce thinks Joe is garbage and shouldn’t be a factor in if Joe does the dirty with anyone.
But I’ma just sit and enjoy the show and read the comments, so much like…anger here lately it’s getting a bit too intense for a webcomic about teens doing a dumb.
Yeah, until this strip went live I thought she was only keeping up appearances on social media. This is a rare opportunity for her to let her hair down, and she’s going to make the most of it even if that means pushing herself far outside her comfort zone.
I don’t want Joe to Joe Liz because Joe/Joyce however both are of legal age, sober and no ones in a position of power
A very small part of me actually wants Joe to do this because of casual “fuck you” Sarah says to Joe, like not saying he doesn’t deserve some s**t but if you want somebody to do something then insulting them first isn’t the way to go
Also it gets a bit boring the whole “I’d kill for them” because no most likely you will not so its hollow bravado and if you assaulted Joe…well you’d rightfully be sent to prison
No that I look back at it, Good Energy seems to be a more important strip than I realised at first.
Liz and Joyce are both using Joe as a means to exercise the freedom that they want without coming out to their judgmental friends. Does the parallel suggest what is going to happen next?
Or has Joe learned to say “Come and see me when you are prepared to be open about what you are doing.”
I love how Joe is speechless. Liz looks at him with so much hope and saying so much♡… I don’t think he has ever been in a situation like this. I still think Joe might offer her a place to sleep without doing anything else and then be accused of have done everything by a furious Sarah.
Okay. So Liz is a far bigger poser than we all thought.
And she’s basically using this trip as a secret trial run of her brand new atheist/secular identity. Or no one at Ball State believes her deconversion?
…Also, her opinions on Christians appears to be from internaliizing others mockery.
Overall, Joe should say no.
(1) He implicitly promised Sarah he wouldn’t and while Sarah doesn’t have any real authority over either of them, come on.
(2) It’s a shitty thing to kick your roommate out of the room at night with no warning.
(3) There’s something sketchy about sleeping with someone who believes you are both mutually under the influence (of something).
Joe and Joyce hook up and then Sarah takes a swing at him going “you banged my little sister!”
Then Joe catches the bat with one hand and says “actually, we’ve developed a strong emotional bond of valuing each other’s time and supporting mutual growth and understanding of our feelings.”
And the entire time the Ultra Instinct music is playing:
Joe you promised Sarah not to do this exact thing.
Only way around this would be to like introduce her to a friend so she’s someone else’s problem. Then again I think the only friend Joe has who’s single is like Jacob.
Is it not weird to need to promise you won’t bang someone who wants to bang you, because someone you don’t like and who constantly verbally affirms how much she thinks you’re a piece of shit that you never hang out with anyway told you not to?
I know the overprotective big sibling protecting their baby sister’s chastity has some folksy charm to it, but also that’s weird, stop it.
Not only that, but I get the feeling Liz is forcing herself to do this more as a rite of passage, because This Is What Uninhibited Secular People Do and it’s another milestone checked off her decompression to-do list.
If that’s true, his hesitation suggests he sees right through her act. That’s the sort of thing Stereotype Joe would be down for, but he doesn’t want to be Stereotype Joe anymore.
Joe can resent the person he used to be because he used treat women like slots to insert his dick into and Liz can also actually just want to have sex on the grounds of “what the fuck have I been missing out on this whole time?!”
Sex isn’t that important, it’s not that big a deal. We just market it that way, we treat it like there has to be some grand meaning. It’s, actually, totally okay to come from a repressive and stifling upbringing and feel a burning need to break away from it as hard as you can, even if you don’t know what a weed drug is.
Well DamnYouWillis here I was all comfortable disliking Liz for cynically getting laughs off of Joyce’s naivete and then it turns out I was just being a judgmental asshole and she doesn’t know much and is still scared to come out of the closet herself.
When you suspect that someone doesn’t really want to have sex for whatever reason?
When that someone is acting like they might have impaired judgement due to any number of reasons?
Look, I’m all into ethical non-monogamy and free love and that, but if I’m in Joe’s shoes I’m not going ANYWHERE near sexy times with Liz, at least not without a serious conversation about the hell she’s actually thinking.
So what are you trying to say here? I’m obligated to say “yes” to sex regardless of how strange the situation seems to me?
(also I was a bouncer/bartender in college, there are a LOT of situations where my suspicion meant I was *legally obligated* to act like I knew better than someone I suspected was impaired.)
You’re having trouble differentiating between “why I don’t want to have sex with this person on the grounds of *literally any reason, including the absence of a reason*” and deciding why someone else is incapable of deciding they want to have sex when they say they do.
I feel reasonably certain that a college freshman escaping from a restrictive home life and getting really, really excited about all the stuff they were now free to do is not that fantastical a concept.
Also she’s not impaired. She took a multivitamin she thought was an edible, it was the punchline to a whole strip.
And I’m saying I’ve seen enough people who were doing more or less this EXACT thing (“Look, fuck god, let’s get drugged up and have sex!”) and then have really strong regrets about it in the next day or week.
Joe is absolutely allowed to make that judgement and decline to be a part of it.
And yes, I’m aware she’s not impaired. I’ve also seen (college bartender!) enough people decide that they were going to have one beer as a excuse to try on some new behavior “due to impairment” that they weren’t internally 100% sure of.
Again: in Joe’s shoes, I see this woman who is CLEARLY #1 under the impression she’s on weed and #2 obviously FAKING enthusiasm about wanting sex (and bonus #3 assuming Joe has no judgement about who he has sex with (“I KNOW you’re up for it”)).
Okay but, crucially, you are not taking the chance because you are uncomfortable. You’re not totally dtf but “well she’s totally incompetent and helpless, and thus cannot make a decision.”
You can actually have sex and then feel bad about it later. That’s fine too. Maybe the reason we’re so hung up about “but what about the potential consequences?!?!” because we treat casual and consensual sex as having more meaning than it has to.
Pointedly, I’ll also note that Liz’s phrasing in the last panel makes it abundantly unclear whether LIZ is aware she’s not actually on any “weed drugs”.
Again in Joe’s shoes, I’m wondering if she’s pushing herself into this believing she’s stoned, and it merits discussion rather than jumping straight into it.
Do you think there might be a difference between deciding for yourself whether you want to have sex and deciding why the other person isn’t competent enough.
I think if you can’t imagine picking up vibes someone is uncomfortable with something they’re ostensibly agreeing with means that you might need to broaden your horizons a bit. I’ve agreed to a lot of shit over the years that people were nice enough to realize I was just going along with.
Do you think there’s a difference between Joe being uncomfortable, and Joe declaring Liz unable to decide whether or not she’s capable of having sex, the way Danny did to Billie that one time?
When something seems ‘off’ I’m well within the bounds of decency to say ‘We can circle back around to this if you still feel the same way later’. She’s clearly going through some stuff and no roll is worth being part of someone’s regret later.
‘Thinking of sex like Joyce does’ and thinking of sex as a totally meaningless entertainment with no emotional import are not the only two options here.
Does it seem off because the situation is making you uncomfortable, as in you have a reason you don’t want to have sex with this person, or is it off because you’re deciding she’s not emotionally equipped to have sex? Not with you, specifically, but whether or not she is a competent enough person to engage in sex.
Because if you’re processing this as “meaningless entertainment with no emotional import”, the emotional important is in Liz asserting herself away from the sneering contempt of her peers for being a Jesus Freak and the stifling upbringing she’s been faced with from her stepmom to the point where she has to pretend she buys into all that dumb bullshit.
Amusingly, this is the conversation Danny and Joe were having a while back about Jennifer, formerly known as Billie, throwing herself at Danny for what Danny suspected were the wrong reasons.
Re: whether she’s making herself believe she impaired so as to “justify” her behaviour, it cuts both ways. Sure, believing you’re impaired can lead to you actually being impaired, but OTOH, you can also use it as a tool to give yourself permission and ease into what you legitimately decided you want to do/be, but still have hangups about.
Can’t speak for Vulcanodon, but for me it seems off specifically do to some of her word choices. Particularly the “I want to do secular things” line.
I don’t get the sense that she necessarily is seeking a quick hookup out of any particular lustful craving, but rather because it’s what the secular people do (which ironically strikes me as a rather religious way of going about it). It feels kinda like she’s viewing sex as something she needs to do to prove to herself that she’s secular now, which….like I don’t know any specific words to describe what exactly my brain is interpreting that as, but something is definitely off with that sort of rationale.
One lesson drilled into my head that I still ascribe by is, “Sex is when you want to have it and you should never be ashamed if you’re not ready or uncomfortable it it.”
Joe doesn’t look interested. He looks creeped out.
If you want a random hookup. Go for it. If not, don’t. Its why I support Becky taking her time.
I would say more like Danny. “What if she regrets it.”
Though that’s more like half of the arguments. Others are less ‘seconds is super serious” and more wondering about the social backlash such as how Sarah and Joyce will react or how Liz will act afterwards. (Like will she be able to continue treating it casually or will she take it more seriously then it actually is?)
Too many levels,
A: “weed drugs”
B: the first time she took some they weren’t actually drugs
C: she thinks they’re wearing off anyway
D: again “weed drugs”
Me at the end of a college music festival: “I am SO wasted right now. How many have I had?” At which point I remember that I never actually made it to the front of the bar queue- all I’ve had all night is a single vanilla ice-cream.
I could be off-base here, but I have a suspicion that the most narratively significant aspect of this encounter here, however it ends up going, is going to be the insight it gives Joe into how *Joyce* feels about sex right now (is interested, wants it, is absolutely terrified of it, that both her avoidance of it and her eventual pursuit of it is heavily influenced by her puritanical Christian upbringing in a way that makes it very difficult for her to act on her desires in a healthy way because it’s so inextricably linked her her feelings ABOUT her Christian upbringing, whether while embracing her Christianity or violently rejecting it).
Based on the way he thought about Joyce when he first met, it’s possible he’s actually had sex with someone who was carrying all that emotional baggage before, but if so, I doubt he gave much thought to it beyond how much it factored into his getting laid. He’s grown a loooooooot since then, and some of that growth is directly a result of his emotional attachment to Joyce, and how much he does now find himself caring about her feelings.
Long term I think that insight into her struggle with having sexual desire is a good thing for both of them, and would be a benefit to a romantic relationship. Short term, I have no clue if it’s likely to pose more of a barrier to them getting romantically or sexually involved, if Joyce gets to the point of making a move on him (because this shit is M E S S Y and he can see the potential for harm in sleeping with someone who is in fact quite clearly not 100% comfortable with the idea of having sex), or if it would help, because he has some idea where she’d be coming from. You can be scared and uncomfortable about doing something, and still do it safely, if you have the radical emotional honesty to voice your fears instead of denying that they exist. That said, they’re eighteen, so that might be asking a bit much of both of them.
Setting aside the whole question of whether Liz is overcompensating or pushing herself, I kinda feel like Joe should say ‘no’ mostly because he hasn’t seemed interested in having sex with her at all. If anything, he seems really weirded out by this whole situation.
Actually, I think that’d be a good way for the scene to go. Joe trying to throw up ‘excuses’ for why he can’t have sex with Liz like Sarah told him not to or he doesn’t want her to regret it, only for her to keep arguing back until he finally admits he just isn’t interested in hooking up with her for more personal reasons he’ll have to actually examine for himself.
I mean yeah I think that’d be a great way to explore it.
‘Cause guys aren’t ever supposed to say ‘no.’ We’re always eager, we’re always horny, we always want it right this second. That’s how it is normally, how do you say ‘no’ when you’re most known for being a big horny manly man who spends all his time trying to bone?
Does Joe even know he can say he doesn’t want to have sex? Does he even have the words?
Is it because he slept around? The specific mindless transaction he made sex into? Or how that viewpoint made him think it was cool and smart to make the Do List, and be so unable to be emotionally honest that he became the person who’d make the Do List?
‘Cause Joe being able to admit to himself that he doesn’t want to sleep with someone when offered, that’s not growth in the sense that Joe’s now a good person and ready to marry Joyce*, but it’s growth in how he’s undone one of the longest lasting myths of the toxic masculinity he’s ascribed to, and how he’s got more to do like “maybe I’m not doomed to be like my dad” and “I can actually be Joyce’s friend and not ruin her, I can be emotionally honest with Danny and it’s not weird or unmanly.”
Oh wait, sorry, I think I’ve misunderstood you in both my responses. You’re saying Old Joe wouldn’t bother feeling any discomfort in this situation right? Like, that he’d process the level of discomfort he’s showing these last two strips, but then go “eh who cares boobies.”
I think Old Joe wouldn’t ever consider saying no because he’s uncomfortable since Old Joe couldn’t consider a scenario where he’d be uncomfortable having sex. Like, no matter the circumstance it’d always be a good idea to him.
But in terms of showing that he’s matured his views on sex, being able to question himself when uncomfortable and resolve to say he doesn’t want it to happen would be a big deal to him.
I was processing “discomfort” as “Joe is uncomfortable with how Liz is acting” as opposed to “Joe himself doesn’t want to have sex and that’s weirding him out.”
I think Joe’s thinking “this doesn’t feel right” or “something doesn’t add up here”. He can both be tempted by the prospect of sex with Liz and not go through with it because the situation feels off.
He might be trying to ‘protect’ her from herself, but I think he just doesn’t feel right about it. Just turning her down doesn’t take away her agency, but he would cross that line if he stopped her from engaging some other guy.
Honestly she is an adult, and I find it very disturbing that her older sibling is trying to police her sex life for her. What’s wrong with her wanting to bang Joe for fun?
I think it ties more into the fact that Liz has a habit of targeting men that her family and friends are interested in, or at least Sarah seemed to believe so due to her past experiences.
Not anything wrong with two adults doing whatever, but if Liz IS doing it to hurt other people’s feelings and just to prove that she can, that’s a different context.
That’s a little weird for sure, but I don’t really see why Joe would need to say no. On the other hand, Joe is having an uncharacteristic crush on Joyce, so he’s not quite himself at this moment.
This could go in any direction, but I suspect Joe’s gonna say no due to somewhat confused reasons.
This is that backlash thing that happens, when someone who has been repressed for a long time is free and they overindulge and do something regrettable.
I can see it worrying Joe that Joyce will eventually try to use him for the same when he has deeper feelings for her, even more so if he learns Joyce already let Liz believe the two of them were hookup buddies.
Oh, I get what you meant now Holly. That may indeed complicate things for Joe. “Is this some weird power game you’re playing”.
I mean, a totally cool and dispassionate Joe would probably just shrug and enjoy the sexual encounter, but he’s having weird and conflicted thoughts right now.
Honestly if I was a young university student in Joe’s boxers, I would be hard pressed to think of a reason to say no. As long as they are smart about protection, where’s the harm?
“one moment”
Joe goes back in there and asks Danny “yo how do i politely tell her i don’t do black girls?”
And you fuckers here in love with the pose she doin? it’s a generic pin up pose, overused in erotic drawings and pictures of a crap tonna cultures, for many, many years now, so, welcome to the normie club.
I DID IT
I MADE IT TO THE END OF THE COMMENTS
I’ve been trying to crawl through this shit like all day, there were already over 300 before 8 am what the fuck
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and not-Christians are totes amoral sex beings who do it all the time
with moms
for nickels
…or so I hear
Joe if he goes through with it
…wow, SSDD, that’s a blast from the past…
Some of Christians are amoral sex beings! I feel misrepresented.
🙂
Makes note of Alien Amoral Sex Beings from Outer Space as a potential title.
Why do I see Joe going to have a Kronk ethics debate between Danny on one shoulder and Joe’s cock/libido on the other?
Unless he’s just grabbing Danny to shove him out the door.
I figure it would be Joyce on one shoulder and Joe’s Dad on the other.
Or if he’s asking Danny to finally make up a three-way.
I think even Joe would prefer JT or Andy Samberg for that position, or y’know Sal.
Although now I’m bugged to remember who Joe thinks is the hottest girl on campus. But _the list_ is dead for good reason.
it WAS Rachel (Eleven)
although now I’m imagining Rachel as Eleven (Elle)
Stranger things have happened.
Am I the only one gettig “Nope Out” vibes from Joe for the last like, 7 panels?
Liz: I am a grownup. I do taxes and mortgage.
Joe: This is getting weird.
Liz: And I’m secular! Show me to your cauldron, I’m ready to learn D&D!
Joe: Fuck this, I’m out.
Liz: Teach me evolution! At a pride parade! With your Obamaphone!
“Take me to your transgender bathroom and show me some universal health care!”
“You do know we’re still in Indiana, right?”
Liz: “I have completed one whole jury duty, and it was thrilling!”
In the jury room. After we deliberated, I got liberated.
By eight guys and two gals. The other one was a Christian.
I want an Obamaphone now…
Just for the record, those so-called “Obama phones” are merely the same telephone “Lifeline” program that was introduced back in 1985 (during Reagan’s second term, so it’s not some Johnny-come-lately liberal thing). Of course, THEN it provided federal subsidies for land-line phones, but as more and more people ‘cut the cord’, it was expanded to allow for cellular phones.
Legend has it, if you shine the Obamaphone’s torch at the sky on a cloudy night, Obama will return, flying in the Obamawing, wearing his Obamabelt with a can of shark-repellant Obama-spray on it.
Joe: “I don’t think I’m qualified to teach you evolution, but I know of someone who is. Just give me a second to find some Cocoa Puffs. Or Chicken McNuggets. Whatever we can get our hands on sooner. Or if you’re willing to spare some health points and maybe a shred of clothing, just make fun of dinosaurs.”
Alright. NOW I don’t want Joyce to fuck her. Cuz that is a vocal string of red flags she just spewed.
Nah, they would actually have lots of fun, I think v:
I assume that was a type, but knowing these comments…
IDK, I think Joyce is probably aware enough that if she spends more time with Liz, she’ll spot the problems. They’re both overcorrecting hard, and another example of that may be just what she needs. If it helps her with her other repressed issues at the same time, that’s a win-win.
I mean Joe, but I guess I also don’t want Joyce to fuck her either.
Well maybe.
actually…
A VERY Freudian slip. Your subconscious is 8 parallel shipping dimensions ahead of you.
Don’t get me wrong. The sheer amount of SQUISH I’m picturing in my head is not a dissatisfying mental image. They’ve actually got similar curves (though Liz is quite a bit moreso) and that might be fun.
no no, no need to correct. they’re made for each others ! (in their denial)
Since neither of them would know what they’re doing Liz x Joyce has the potential to be either very wholesome or very underwhelming but entertaining regardless.
Joyce painted in her purple lipstickThe problem is that they wouldn’t be HONEST about not knowing what they were doing. The whole “let’s experiment cautiously, communicating clearly and honestly with each other what’s working and what isn’t and what we’re feeling apprehensive about” thing? That’s the exact OPPOSITE of what they would be doing.
Okay but that’s really fucking funny.
Two bumbling virgins trying to convince the other that they’re the best at doing sex things.
“Sorry, Liz, but you know we can’t do a Cowgirl without the hat.”
I lol’d.
I mean to be fair, it is sexier with the hat.
And so, they were both bottoms
This is why Ruth/Jason is doomed.
Clearly Ruth’s a switch, if she’s even a bottom at all. Emotionally maybe, but once engaged she always seemed to be in physical control of Ms. Billingsworth.
Daisy raised her voice at Ruth for an entire two panels and Ruth instantly become interested and invested.
Ruth only dommes Jason because he’s a boring lay with zero initiative. If Daisy got in on that it’d be a poly triad with Ruth and a lamp.
yeah, the classic “Go Leafs?” scene seemed IMO to be an (equally classic) case of Billie goading Ruth into topping her
in the most epic of hatefucks.But they were both bottoms is a sad event but they were both tops is GOOD SHIT.
Nothing can convince me that Ruth isn’t one of those “cuddle me to death after violently destroying me” kind of subs.
While I’m having this slip up Let me just say this.
Joe/Joyce/Liz. That would be fun. For me. (And I assume them)
You’re an artist. You have the power.
But do I not the skill. I mean I can try but I just haven’t been liking my art as of late.
Art is best judged by the audience.
This!
We like your art Yotomoe!
It’s fine if you don’t. No pressure. But you absolutely have fans here.
Your skills of an artist are up to the task. Believe in yourself!
@yotomoe I would pay real money to see u illustrate such a holy threesome. And I’m poor as shit. If that doesn’t boost your confidence a bit idk what will. If u won’t do it for us at least do it for the squishy goodness
Most artists don’t like their work. Don’t let that stop you.
I fucking told you she was problematic, but it would be more like you’re making a life Ruining decision for her more than yourself.
Yup. I don’t like her or her flags, but I can admire her apparent confidence.
That’s not confidence. That’s desperation.
“I’m gonna rip that band-aid off no matter how hard I have to pull!”
-Liz
“Ow ow ow ow OW! Fuck! It’s not a band-aid, DON’T RIP IT OFF!”
— Joe soon. (Maybe)
Yeah, to me that “I can– I can do what I want” screams “I’ve got something to prove to myself”. She’s only slightly less inhibited than Joyce.
Lucy the ‘(fake it till you make it) tart.’
Any chance Joe will send her off with a lecture on consent and how secular people can’t consent when high? No? Sigh.
I don’t really see how.
I mean, yeah, she obviously has no idea what she’s talking about, but I think the undercurrent of “I’m tired of being judged for someone I’m not and living without all these other experiences” is on-point. That’s kinda what being a repressed virgin in a society that teaches you to innately fear and be repulsed by sex while constantly staring at it does to you.
I really only see that as red flags if Joe himself is uncomfortable with sleeping with someone who’s that driven by wanting it than really knowing it, but, y’know, it’s just an orgasm.
OMG! She has been fronting!
I have to admit I’m a little proud of myself here. I kind of figured Liz wasn’t as far ahead of Joyce as she seemed. Especially since she apparently can’t tell the difference between edible weed and a vitamin gummy.
Yeah. Liz had me mostly fooled, tbh.
Partly, I guess, because my analysis of her came to a hard stop when I decided she was a dumpsterfire of a human being. I’d written her off by the time she popped the gummy.
But also because I’m bad at this kind of thing.
This makes her corruption of Joyce much more irritating.
“her corruption of Joyce”
YUCK.
Joyce is not “corrupted” just because she is growing and changing in ways which aren’t fun for everyone. LIZ is not some demon who came in and tempted Joyce into the dark side.
They are both teenagers who are trying to break their own religious indoctrination and (like teenagers do) they are being emotional and boastful rather than admit how frightening it is to accept that you might really be all alone in a world where nothing was planned ahead of time for you.
This narrative people have that Liz is some corrupting evil influence is getting fucking tiresome.
I hope people were more understanding for you when you were going through whatever cringe-filled awkwardtastic changes you went through as a young adult.
Eh; “corrupting” more in the sense of being a REALLY bad example of how to handle her newfound loss of belief in God. If Liz had been the sort of person who said “meh; I don’t really believe that shit anymore but I’m not going to shove it in their faces” when Joyce brought up how she posts all this Christian stuff on facebook, instead of initiating the “mocking the ever living fuck out of the concept of being religious”, it’d be a whole different story.
Just because she’s a teen breaking religious indoctrination doesn’t give her a pass on encouraging Joyce’s behavior.
Genuine question: how is Joyce supposed to react?
Because I see a lot of “ugh I used to be such an edgy atheist, so cringey” and yeah I get that, but I get that because I’m pretty sure most of us didn’t grow up in a fundamentalist death cult. How is she supposed to act?
My church wasn’t as fundie as Joyce’s, and I personally am still a Christian, but the kids in my class who walked away from the church just…stopped attending. They went away to college or whatever they did next, maybe tried a new church in that area or maybe not, and eventually started sharing posts on facebook calling out the shit some churches do (the one I’m thinking of in particular was homeless for a while and posting about how little help the church gave her family while they were still members, and how the church-run shelters that she and her mom went to were at best unhelpful and at worse abusive). There was no “edgy atheism”, just a quietly starting to walk away.
That said, none of the people I’ve seen go through this had the kind of shock-trauma to their faith that Joyce did. But calling out specific shit that the church is wrong about / harmful for about is very different from diving headfirst into the “edgy athiest” persona.
I mean, is quietly walking away from that the only mature answer? Is it not right to get mad if the circumstances that made you lose your faith were enraging? Of all the reasons to straight up hate Christianity, is a good reason for it, if only in the immediate moment, not in being personally wronged by the arm of it that exists in your personal life, like say an abusive shelter?
Because I lost my faith the same way I lost interest in Youtube guys on my Recommendations list: they just phased out of mind. For me to be as angry in the same way as Joyce would be weird, in that there’s a lot about the institution of Christianity as a political and culture force in North America I have a beef with but not any individual Christian who processes their faith as a personal aspect of their lifestyle. As a matter of human decency, I think it’s important I respect the religious faith of all individuals even if faith is something I don’t really understand anymore, because it’s not something I have to understand to respect.
But, I sure as hell wasn’t Joyce, who grew up in a fundamentalist death cult that taught her the Earth is 6000 years old and dinosaurs were placed on the ark and eventually hunted to extinction by humans. Joyce never had faith, the way a Christian doesn’t objectively knows God exists but believes in him for a myriad of reasons, she had a set of inerrant facts she was told were true. All of it was real, all at once, and every part of it had to be as real and as important as the other, or else it would all fall apart.
And then traumatic experience after traumatic experience kept happening to her, and they were done by the authority figures in her life she was brought up to unquestionably obey, until eventually it all caved because the only faith Joyce ever had was in an authority figure telling her what to do.
So now Joyce is an atheist, except she can’t actually bring herself to say out loud to herself that she’s one, and that atheism doesn’t mean “a belief in the non-existence of God”, it means she now has a lack of belief in everything she was told, including the origin of life, her own morality, and even who the hell “Joyce” is as a person, because the Joyce she is was made by that same death cult. She doesn’t have a new set of facts to grasp onto, it’s all just gone.
So Liz comes in and Joyce has the first opportunity ever, at all, to just be mad. She was lied to, bad things happened to her and she kept telling herself it was all God’s plan and it was just random violent chaos. She believed stupid bullshit like the sky sea that protected humans from the sun’s rays and let them live to 900 and it was all wrong, and she’s saying it out loud.
And then Becky intrudes on this private conversation, all of Joyce’s friends judge her without offering even the slightest sympathy or understanding, and right now, doubling down on being right is all Joyce has got even if “being right” means nothing to her at the moment because the only facts she has are that nothing matters, except that’s not “nothing matters” in an aggressively teenage way, nothing matters anymore because the source of her morals was her upbringing that then went on to repeatedly traumatize her over and over.
Look, Joyce is a kid from a fucked up situation and she’s reacting poorly to the loss of everything she’s ever known and now that’s even worse because none of her friends give a shit enough to ask how she’s doing. That’s not “edgy atheist”, that’s getting right and proper furious at the institutions that made her believe and act in a way her peer group constantly mocked her for that they’re now demanding she go back to because she’s making too much of a fuss.
Joyce didn’t have a normal Christian upbringing. For me to be this angry would be for me to get angry at something that was at best a casual part of my childhood, not the dissolution of everything I believed in as so factual that knowing God doesn’t exist anymore is as devastating to my view of reality if math and physics stopped working.
^ 💯
Oh good we’re still on about that.
Yeah, not everyone is done talking about things when one person decides they are.
Hoss, they called Liz and Joyce saying Fuck Jesus for an hour as a corruption.
That’s bonkers.
Both Joyce and Liz remind me of myself when I was a brand new atheist. Much more militant and judgmental of religious people, with the belief that anyone who believes in a god is stupid. Eventually I grew up and realized it doesn’t matter if someone else personifies the universe or not, as long as they’re not using their religion as a reason to judge/harm others.
Joyce and Liz (probably) are in fact dealing with a lifetime of folks using their religion as a reason to judge/harm others.
That was actually Joyce’s entire upbringing.
Didn’t you just love that new atheist smell?
She’s also been backing.
Yeah that tracks
It seemed clear to begin with that both she and Joyce were bluffing about how much experience they had with doing things that their upbringing warned them against doing. Especially since she didn’t respond to Joyce’s weird comments with “wait, what?”
^this exactly
Wait what? What’s so weird about having friends with a rewards program? Which is actually a really cute way of describing that situation. I imagine you have a card or something. You support me emotionally enough times to earn points towards a sex to be redeemed at a time of your choosing. Free 2nd base on your birthday. Long time customer bonuses like being the date at your sister’s wedding.
On one hand that does sound cute. On the other hand having a sex based reward to points earned sounds like a very exploitable dynamic. Though it would be fun to just be like “man thanks for driving me home, I’m so exhausted. Want a blowjob later?”
Friends with rewards program, maybe, but “That chest hair goes all the way down to his feet”?
Hey! Let’s not judge people for their personal grooming habits or fetishes. We don’t control where our hair chooses to grow, just how we react to it. So maybe Joe doesn’t manscape everywhere and maybe Joyce is into that and maybe so is Liz. To each their own.
I’m just saying that as the body hair below the navel tends to be referred to with specific terms it left me with the mental image not of someone who simply makes their own choices about what hair to shave off and more of chest hair that’s somehow reaching Rapunzel lengths.
People forget
Forget they’re hiding
Behind an eminence front
An eminence front, it’s a put-on
Jesus christ, I don’t know what’s going on here-
My guess is that Liz was being bullied for being religious and is desperately trying to change. She appears to be going for the trope where the innocent girl next door is secretly a party animal and sex goddess in an attempt to bolster her self image.
My prediction is that Joe is going to do the right thing, and hate it.
I think he’s not going to hate it, but he’s going to protest vociferously to Danny that he hates it.
I think Matthew knows what’s up.
Maybe, but before he can complain to Danny, he has to come up with an acceptable to Joe reason to give Danny for why he said no. And that could be a problem. This situation has all that he’s worked for, the sex tape as advertising, a young lady to break in, sex with a lack of emotional commitment. Is he just going to tell Danny he has unrequited feels for Joyce? I don’t think so.
I absolutely do. At 19, a roadtrip to Utah with a couple buddies and the first time without parents around to judge me and all I wanted to do was get LAID. But you’re still “in the closet”, still fighting with your beliefs. No idea HOW to make that happen, especially under the tiny timetable you might have to figure it out. And then there’s your friends, who probably don’t have the same thoughts that you do, you’ve never really discussed that with them, because “sex is a sacred act, we don’t talk about it”.
So you find a dance club, that’s how it works, right?
And you don’t know what to do, and your friends are uncomfortable so you just leave and never have sex for another three years.
I really really REALLY resent the LDS church.
My take is that Liz was still at least nominally religious come her first semester at Ball State, but keeping up appearances with her stepmom opened her up to a lot of bullying* from her peers based on who she presented herself as, and she felt stuck between lying for someone else’s sake and how everyone else kept her boxed in, so now that she’s away from that for a bit she’s trying to make the most of it.
*I say bullying, but given the extremely blatant parallels between her and Joyce, I’d wager that bullying consisted largely of “you’re a fundie weirdo so we’ll laugh about that as much as we want, but you still have to be that person even as we tell you it’s wrong”, like Joyce’s friends put her through.
Also goddamn I think Liz is so hot though. Like against my better judgement she’s really doing it for me. The way she’s arching her back in the last 2 panels especially jeez louise.
now that you mention it, she’s definitely highlghting her assets for Joe, isn’t she, lol
A good saleswoman knows to put her goods on the top shelf.
Actually, a good saleswoman puts them at eye-level.
Knowing Joe, they always were.
He is tall, the top shelf is probably near his eye level.
Yes, she’s been doing that since the last comic; it’s a thing some do to errr, flirt.
Yeah, she’s hawt, but is setting off all kinds of alarms.
You said it, not me.
It’s gonna be hard to get me to stop saying it. I wish i could provide some commentary other than how much i love her.
Willis really nailed “sexy hair” in this strip, gotta say.
yessh
and everything else.
I was going to request Sierra in my KS drawing.
I am satisfied that I typed ‘Liz’ at the last moment 🙂
I’m so glad that Liz is very much not my type.
You can think someone is incredibly hot and simultaneously dislike pretty much everything else about them with the knowledge that getting involved with them could be a horrible mistake.
I actually like her better after this strip. Confirmation that this is messed up floundering rather than something more deliberate goes a long ways.
Still would be a horrible mistake. No way does this turn out to be a simple casual consequence free hook up.
Yep, same! This is incredibly humanizing. It’s what I suspected might be going on – that Liz was overcompensating just as hard as Joyce – but we had no confirmation of it until now.
Again, for me, that’s Penny.
(And now Liz too.)
thanks for saying everything I wanted to say.
Yeah no her pose in the last two panels is definitely doing it for me. Whenever you feel like getting back into drawing I’m really looking forward to seeing your take on her
She’s physically attractive to be sure, but the stuff she’s just said in this strip would kinda ruin my attraction to her if I was in Joe’s position here.
…genuinely not sure if you meant to say “Joyce” there or not.
(This was supposed to be a reply to “https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/totallynot/#comment-1584567”>Yotomoe)
…what is up with my formatting today?
I know the pain
The answer is no. It was a typo. Or perhaps a Freudian slip. They are both pleasantly shaped. In fact I’d argue all 3 of them are pleasantly shaped.
The thought of the 3 of them together and is giving me bi panic
The three of them, together, form a pleasant shape.
Oh boy, she and Joyce really were just providing a positive feedback loop for the other’s new negative traits. Joe should really just compromise and give her another gummy vitamin before turning her to Sarah’s room. At least that way Liz would be high… on rebellion.
Oh my god you’re right. BACK AWAY SLOWLY JOE, IT’S FOR HER OWN GOOD.
-shrug- just let her experimence guilt-free sex if she wants to
(but yeah, I’m not quite sure Joe will actually be up to that)
The way she’s acting I’m not sure it will be guilt free for her come morning.
Or for him at any point at all.
Honestly, I don’t think Joe is going to be up to it. Liz isn’t really dishing up anything sexy by telling Joe what essentially boils down to, “I’m a real grown-up, for real! Let me sleep with you to reinforce my new self-identity!”. It’s just got some really awkward/off-putting vibes, at least to me. Now, you’re right that Liz can have all the casual, guilt-free sex she wants. It’s not the sex that bothers me here. It’s all the weird baggage around it.
Yeah, but it’s like… if it’s not joe it’s gonna be some random arsehole, isn’t it ? 😐
The possibility is definitely there, yeah. But honestly, Liz hardly knows Joe past the fact that he was the dude from a sex-tape and her sister happens to know him (and for what it’s worth, Sarah thinks Joe is an arsehole). From my point of view, even if Joe is into the idea after all the weird Liz just put out in the open, he should just take a pass, if only for all of the social consequences he’ll face if he doesn’t.
Yup. If she works up the courage to go looking for another, which I’m not 100% on.
My ideal scenario may be that she knocks on Walky’s door next.
That’s not a reason for Joe to do it. He’s not a public service.
ha HA, “service”!
</philkensebben>
He put himself out there as a public service, so it’s fair for Liz to suppose that he is.
Joe has issues to untangle about not being that and why he isn’t.
He can do things besides slam the door in her face and jump straight into pound town. That tongue’s got more than one function, after all!
Get her stoned (with company) and then explain sex Ed to her. Put all that sex knowledge to use!
Ah yes, negative traits such as “resenting the harsh restrictions and constant negative feedback from a religious upbringing” and “wants to stop being treated like a weird helpless baby.”
Liz’s negative trait is wanting to have sex to assert herself, y’all are tripping.
Yeah I wouldn’t consider those negative traits either. Though it’s very clear now that both Liz and Joyce were only pretending to know about sex and drugs and stuff when they were hanging out earlier.
Yeah, Spencer really put words in my mouth with that comment. Honestly, I was referring to the fact that Liz and Joyce really seem to be providing positive feedback toward their(Joyce’s at least) new propensity for lying about sex and drugs to look cool, as well as just acting like assholes. They can certainly push back against their upbringing and assert themselves as adults, but the way they’re going about it is unpleasant for those around them. Not that they necessarily owe people around them comfort, but there are social consequences for being unpleasant to be around.
Yeah that was why Joyce and Liz were doing that in a private room with two people who don’t care.
And then Becky stalked Joyce over there and made everything worse.
I don’t believe I ever mentioned Becky, but thank you for your concern. Becky is her own can of worms, yeah, but Joyce being an asshole without Becky present is still Joyce being an asshole. Sarah obviously finds it grating. Joe is seems uncomfortable as well. I, as a reader of the comic, also find her new behavior unpleasant, and very much wish she would see a therapist, as she seems genuinely conflicted, angry, and adrift right now. Joyce is clearly going through some stuff right now, and grew up an unideal environment, but Joyce is still responsible for her own actions and doesn’t get to hurt people without repose just because she’s hurting.
*without responsibility
Not repose. Goodness only knows how that ended up there.
Liz, I know this is a moment for you here, but the “I’ve seen your work” makes you sound more like an art dealer than a whatever you think an amoral atheist who gets laid sounds like.
….at least I hope I never sounded like that.
The awkwardness of Liz is physically hiurting me in a way I never imagined.
So is Joe going to ask Sarah for permission? Or return Liz to Sarah? Or say “screw it” and have sex with her?
I think he’s going to ask Danny for advice, which gets us another “how far have I fallen” moment from him, but also gets him actual advice.
Time for the NICE GUY shirt to finally pay off.
Or to get pulled off.
That would certainly a good thing to do, but if he asks for advice I’m hoping Danny does the right thing,
Tell Liz it would make things super complicated for them socially if Joe banged her, and also maybe buy her a vibrator before the night is through?
Asking Sarah for permission ? He’s not that tired of living yet
IIRC, Sarah made a point of telling Joe that Liz was 18. Not exactly giving him permission, but at least suggesting she was more or less resigned to the idea.
I went to look. Yes: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/quickmath/
In the very next strip she very forcefully urged Joe “Don’t try to bang my little sister”. And I don’t think she would react well to “I didn’t have to try.”
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/edible/
On the other hand, Liz is a mentally-competent and (actually) sober adult who is entitled not to have her sister controlling her sex life. And Joe is also entitled not to have Sarah — who is not even his friend — controlling his sex life.
So Joe ought to say “No, thanks” to Liz because he doesn’t want to bang her. And he has to not worry about the fact that there is no way to wrap that up that isn’t insulting or at least patronising to Liz.
And then he has to come to terms with the fact that the reason that he doesn’t want to bang Liz is that he has a severe crush on Joyce, but that since Joyce has already said “no” and has recently been treating him as a nigh-unbearable pervert it would be harassment to approach Joyce and creepy to nurse his crush while not telling her.
I suggest writing hexameter.
And also maybe because of all the red flags she’s spewing now.
I don’t agree with you about that. She’s a sober, competent young adult who understands what’s involved, feels horny, and is making a forthright request for sex. She’s doing it here, now, and in this way because her family, her “friends” on FogeyBook, and her condescending peers at Ball State won’t let her do it in her usual haunts. We ought to be on her side, not theirs.
idk, feels borderline stalkery that she came to campus on the pretence of visiting Sarah but in reality she was casing the joint for Joe
…wut?
She came to see Sarah, she just wants to bang Joe before she leaves.
Aaand I retract my statement from last night. She’s a bit of a danger zone here.
Going RIGHT INTO THE DANGER ZONE. TAKE YOU RIGHT INTO THE DANGER ZONE.
Headin’ into twilight
spreadin’ out her wings tonight~
takka tak
takka tak
And not the good kind, but the “I’ll be talking to my therapist for the next 5 years” kind.
“Looking back on it…He had a nice guy shirt at the time but…I now realize it was pointing to his left. He wasn’t a nice guy at all! He was just in proximity of one”
“I’m so glad you’re finally coming to terms with that.”
“No, I don’t need more weed drugs, I think I need less. Fewer. Something like that. Either you are having trouble with language or I am having a stroke.”
Yeah, Joe! Your psychosomatic “weed drugs” are wearing off.
Get a grip, man!
Never underestimate the power of the placebo effect.
It is an interesting ethical point. Since the placebo effect is real I think you have to treat a person intoxicated by the placebo effect as intoxicated, for ethical purposes. (Not for medical purposes, obviously.)
On the other hand, Liz doesn’t know what being high is like, so the placebo effect in this case is… twice-removed? Or something? I don’t even know. She’s not acting like she’s high, she’s… acting like she thinks she would act if she were high?
I’m not sure, but I don’t think the placebo effect is a case of acting, or that it is capable of conforming to an arbitrary expectation. I think it probably has a definite physiological basis with a limited range of effects.
That said, a kid did get blind falling-down drunk on placebo at my twelfth birthday party, and that looked an awful lot like him acting out a parental example.
It’s not acting, but it’s also not a real chemical effect. It’s closer to your expectations fooling your body into mimicking the effect. If you fooled someone into thinking they’d taken some kind of recreational drug while they had no idea what that drug was supposed to do, they wouldn’t correctly invent the proper effects. They might feel something based on their generic broad expectations for such drugs.
Breaking conformity is a really freeing feeling, and I totally get where she’s coming from.
I guess as long as it’s consensual and she’s not hurting anyone, she has nothing to answer for.
True, but you can definitely feel like someone wants to sleep with you for the wrong reason. Which is weird to say cuz my only “pro” for having sex with Liz is “that’d be fun”. But “I wanna fuck you cuz I wasn’t allowed to and I’m lashing out” is kind of a downer. Hard to put into words.
Sorry if I seem like a negative Nelly for saying this, but can’t she also be having fun too?
By implying that someone is doing X, Y, Z just for some kind of “revenge”, I kinda feel like you’re allowing their former group to take that away from them, which is kinda insensitive if you ask me. And all while they’re just beginning to discover their identity away from the group, and enjoy their newfound freedom.
True, but it shouldn’t be the first thing out of her mouth. That just feels…I dunno a bit immature? Like if you were out with friends and one guy was like “I never drank alcohol before. Gimmie a glass” vs. “I was never allowed to drink alcohol and I wanna get blitzed off my ass” It’s a bit too…eager for lack of a better word. At the very least they should take it slow.
True. But at the same time, if a hose is repressed and then suddenly goes on full blast over everyone, don’t blame the hose. Blame the one(s) who repressed the hose.
For over a decade.
And who are still actively repressing the hose every chance they get.
This comment right here.
It’s not the hose’s FAULT. Nobody is saying that. But a full blast hose isn’t always what you want and you want to at least get it under control so it’s not whipping around and breaking shit. Y’know keep a tight grip on that hose.
Yeah at the same time, you kinda feel bad for the hose, not only because of all the repression they had to go through, but also because no one wants to opt for all the extra work that comes with it, or deal with it any more than they have to so they can get back to their lives. Who can learn to love a hose?
But thankfully, there are many other hoses out there who are willing also to match their speed and do all the things they want to do together.
I guess that little thing I just wrote there kind of warms my heart…
So we’re all agreed, Joe should keep a tight grip on his hose?
Nah, he’s better off choking his chicken.
Chicken tastes really good with the right SAUCE, but you can’t make a meal out of a hose no matter how many times you slice it.
Wait, were you actually referring to Joyce or Liz?
’cause now I feel rather silly!
Depends on the guy I guess. Cuz if the guy is me n the hose looks like Liz… KnowwhatImean😏
You could also blame the person who took a repressed hose and opened it full tilt. It would be much better to slowly release it than to loose it all at once.
It doesn’t feel like she wants to because she wants to, or because it’d be fun, imo. If she’s not supposed to be convincing herself more than Joe here in a bad way, then the writing’s really missing the mark.
Liz has never actually had “weed drugs,” has she.
Nonsense, she has weed drugs all the time, just like Joyce does.
at this point I wonder if she even had sex (despite stealing Sarah’s crush a while back)
I guess not. Pretty confidently.
Joe gave her a men’s multivitamin gummy.
I’d blame the placebo effect, but vitamins are surprisingly good at making you chipper if you’ve been unhealthy for a while.
At this point I’m pretty sure most of the stuff Liz and Joyce were bragging about to each other earlier was made up.
https://imgur.com/a/uQZLBcz
Also I wanted to draw Liz for tonight but I couldn’t really finish in time. Might try again tommorow. I feel like there’s this “x” factor keeping me of getting her to look QUITE as good as I wanted.
Awww, she’s adorable! I think you did great!
Looks sweet! ‘specially with that strawberry lipstick LOL!
There’s no way I was gonna ignore her lipstick. Golly.
“Ooh, yes. This is just like how you give head, right? This is about the size dicks are, right?”
(I am assuming that Sarah’s understanding of Liz’s “experience” is skewed.)
Great work!
What’s this “X” factor anyway? Is it just clothing, or am I missing something?
But if it’s any guess, I think strawberry lipstick always goes good with a little CHEESECAKE!
Maybe the X-factor is that she’s just too damn precious, and it feels that much harder to draw her well?
Oh and by the way Wellerman, neat pun LOL
I can’t quite put my figner on it. I guess the easiest way to put it is that, when I draw I tend to do my best to copy the person’s art style somewhat. Obviously with fanart I allow flurishes of my own style to come up too but I always want to get what the character’s main appeal is for ME into my art. Ie. How I draw Billie a bit rounder than Willis tends to, or give Amber slightly more defined muscules.
But I dunno, when it comes to Liz I just am not satisfied with how I draw her. In so many words the way Willis draws her instantly sets off my “awoooga *wolf whistle* slams hammer into head* vibes. But I can’t recreate that feeling in my own art and I’m not sure what I’m doing “wrong”.
It’s not bad on a technical level (well it is a little). Moreso I can’t figure out what I…want out of it, artistically.
Ooooohhh….
Bruh, I know EXACTLY how you feel.
That’s the way I’ve been for every single appealing character I’ve ever tried to draw, from anime to web comics to video games and you name it!
At least you’ve had success in drawings of characters that you yourself find appealing! No matter how hard I tried with any of my art, it always felt like some inferior product to me.
I guess it might be because I’m not that good an artist, but I somehow also always felt that trying to make something that arouses yourself personally, is kinda like trying to tickle yourself, you know?
That’s actually kinda the reason why I started sharing some art around here. I actually kind of intended to make something for YOU in particular (and also Red Balloon), because I figured, “hey, if I can’t please myself with what I make, at least I can try giving OTHERS what they’d like, and feeling the joy of knowing you’ve made their day”.
Sorry if that seems kinda tangential or weird, it’s just my take on this whole joy of creation.
Naw it’s nice to talk to other artists about it. It’s…sucky bumping up against your own limitations and it can be discouraging. Lord knows I’m having trouble pushing past it. But the only way to get better is to keep bumping up against it. Keep sucking at it until you don’t suck at it as much. That’s how I got where I am now.
I don’t even think I’m that much of an artist. Considering the process I use with Photoshop and not, I feel like I make the art equivalent of YouTube Poops.
Speaking of which, sorry if you said this already but I didn’t catch it, but is any of your own art… like, AROUSING arousing to you?
In that regard, did any of my pieces set you off like that too?
So, something I’ve realized is that a lot of artists aren’t turned on that much by their own art. I can get super into the ideas and sometimes get into older art I’ve done but more often than not I’m more aroused by the idea of the drawing than the art itself. I have gotten quite fond on a lot of my DOA art lately. Especially that picture of Amber and Dorothy hugging. That’s like my favorite drawing I’ve done of both of them.
It’s also worth noting I never go full on NSFW sex scene with my art cuz I’m not good at it. Meaning most of my stuff peters out at pinups and teases.
It’s so good and relieving to know I’m not alone in this creator’s conundrum!
I guess the idea is the most fun of any project, no matter what it is. The rest is just work, and even when you’ve finished, most of the beauty is inevitably only enjoyed by OTHER people.
Speaking of which, do you think any of my pieces are making it in that **arousing** kind of direction? For you in particular? ’cause that’s kind of what I’m after.
Not to be weird, it’s just that I really like your art ( a little bit to much, sometimes ), and I just wanted a way to really thank you, to give back, you know? It’s just that it meant that much to me.
Real talk it kinda falls into that grey area cuz…well…it is kinda still my own art. Granted it’s recontextualized and that makes it a bit hotter. I enjoy seeing it though. But nothing has quite “gotten me” yet. Sorry.
Thanks for being honest with me, that really means a lot coming from you!
That’s kinda the reason why I see myself as the artist equivalent of a YouTube Pooper.
But while I’m not the best artist in the world, I have another skill that’ll allow me to make something that I think a lot of folks here are REALLY gonna enjoy, including you.
Who knows, I might just try a little something right on time for the end of No Nut November! Maybe with Liz in bondage, if you’re into that? Who knows?
I’ll say this. I’m not a huge bondage guy. It’s just something I have a passing fancy for. If I’m being honest I’d probably place it on the lower end of my weird fetishes I’ve got.
You think you’ve got weird fetishes? I’ve got ones that I think are SUPER weird, and if I’m being realistic, I think at least a third of everyone here has one they think is like that too.
For a while know, I’ve been entertaining this idea where artists tell each other their weird fetishes and then make and trade that specially tailored art with each other, the same way neighbors used to exchange baked goods?
Sorry if that seems weird. It’s just a thought I had.
hey Wellerman if it makes you feel any better I absolutely adored that picture you made with Joyce and me!
*wink wink*
That’s the Tex Avery reaction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h6_LmfC–o
Do you want to make Liz look a bit more aggressive? Perhaps a touch more predatory or at least proactive and dynamic?
If so perhaps slightly wider shoulders and sharper features would do it — face a little more heart-shaped than Lucy round, with a slightly pointed chin and nose. Just a little bit more fox and less rabbit.
I think u might be drawing Liz to “innocent” I feel like I would need to see more examples of u drawing her but when I compare her to your drawings of Billie/Jennifer something is off. I think in order for Liz to come across as Liz she needs an air of forbidden sexiness. Give her some bedroom eyes and assentuate her curves more just like when u draw Billie. Your so close I can feel it
Cute. Good work!
Looking good!
This looks super cute!
Alright Liz just got way more interesting as a character.
I’m now assuming that Liz was actually spewing all the Anti-Christian BS she was doing because she was trying to impress JOYCE. This is basically exactly where Joyce was a few weeks ago, comic strip wise (maybe days). She’s overcompensating and wanting to be “free” as a way to deal with the loss of her faith.
I feel like Joyce and Liz traveled separate paths out of faith that led them to a converging point, i.e., Christians are all dumb for believing. The issue is that the impetus for that is so different: Joyce has reasoned that part of her faith cannot be true, therefore none of it can, therefore all Christians are stupid for believing. Liz, on the other hand, seems to have reasoned that faith was stopping her from having fun and she wants to have fun therefore her faith was wrong and Christians are stupid for not giving it up to have fun.
At the point that they’re at, it looks the same. They sit around talking about how great life is now that they’re free and how dumb Christians are, but it’s very different a little ways down the path. Liz will drink and have sex and do drugs because those were all things Good Christian Girls Don’t Do. I don’t know where Joyce’s path will lead, but I think she’d still be very uncomfortable with all those things, if not trying to come up with a secular reason that they’re wrong. And yes, I know she told Becky to have sex because faith is all made up and the points don’t matter, but things are often different from what you tell others to what you do yourself.
Given she took a vitamin and thinks its weed, I’m not sure that Liz has ever done ANYTHING naughty so we don’t know what her experience with them would be.
I’m not sure Liz is actually all that eager or ready to do those things. In today’s comic she looks like she’s trying to convince herself as much as Joe.
I think she’s genuinely eager (to do all those things that are sinful and bad and forbidden but really fun). She just has almost no actual experience, and is trying to hide that until she can get some. Like, right now.
(Addendum per comments below: whether she would/will regret it later is, IMO, a separate issue. Right now, in the moment, she wants it.)
Maybe, though it’s worth remembering that we don’t know anything of Liz’s journey. Our view of Joyce would be very different if all we knew was what we saw her say to Liz in this storyline.
Joyce also had her own little flirtation with being bad because she was an atheist and it didn’t matter – the thing with Jacob. It’s not any clearer that Liz will keep on down this path than it was that Joyce would keep going down it.
Noooo?
Joyce went after Jacob while she was still identifying as a Christian, and the payoff there was that she was understanding that it mattered when she hurt people outside of any kind of divine judgment, because she couldn’t hurt him and then be forgiven by God later.
Also Liz isn’t doing anything wrong here, oh my god, she wants to get laid and smoke weed.
Seriously? That’s your take on that?
I’m talking specifically about the posing as his girlfriend part, not the entire thing. By that point, though she hadn’t explicitly said she was no longer a believer it was well after her Mullins dream and it was the very next day she talked to Dorothy about how she’d thought it would be so freeing to be an atheist, but you still cared about people’s feelings.
She’s never, as far as I can remember, said anything about being able to hurt people because she could then be forgiven by God.
Double checked, you’re correct.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-10/01-birthday-pursuit/freeing/
Joyce was still identifying as Christian at the time, but it wasn’t “I can sin and it’s fine because God will forgive me” but that she thought sinning was fine since there was no judgment, and then it turned out she felt horrible anyway.
Still “identifying” as Christian in the sense that she wasn’t admitting it, but definitely well into losing her faith. She was talking in that scene about trying out (her wacked notion of) atheism.
Y’all put too much weight for “Anti-Christian BS” on some teenagers making fun of the most powerful religious institution in the entire continent they live on, and that’s before getting into any gripes with how the tendrils of that religious institution creep into American culture to the detriment of human decency, could probably describe as legitimate, and how those gripes can influence breaking away from said religious institution not only when you observe them, but live them yourself.
Y’don’t need to #NotAllMen for Jesus.
That is a LOT of anti-religious bias there, friend.
It’s anti-religious bias in the context of one particular religion in one particular setting where it’s a groundswell for cultural norms that cause harm to people like me all the time.
I respect your personal relationship with your faith as a matter of human decency. I don’t need to respect anything about how Christianity has so much cultural influence in North America that I still need to be polite when discussing whether or not certain people deserve to be alive.
Yeah, there’s a lot of very good reasons to be angry at Christianity as an institution.
And it’s still bigotry. A lot of people have justifications for hating X group of people and a lot of the times its used for a pretty awful mindset. Mind you, I used to have pretty toxic beliefs about other belief structures until I had my mind opened up.
Did those other belief structures hold enormous amounts of power and influence in how the country you live in is ran and how it affects the culture and lives of its people, often to the detriment of its marginalized and unwanted citizens?
‘Cause that ain’t bigotry, that’s punching up.
I’m not getting into another discussion about this for my own sake but i do want to make my position the past few strips clear bc the idea of anyone thinking i simp for Christianity makes me physically ill ( i have religious trauma too! Yay!).
My issue was never with Joyce having it out for the Christian religion as a whole, i get that. My thing was specifically her being. That way i guess? (Hard to think of a good way to describe it without sounding hostile) about it with Becky specifically. I went through a very similar “religion is stupid” phase when i was younger but i was still pretty careful about it with my religious friends bc, even if the church messed me up i didn’t want to take it out on people i cared about because of their personal relationship with faith. I actually had a friend in a similar position to Becky (he lost his parents and clearly found a lot of comfort religion) and he was definitely a dick I’ll be honest, because we were 13 and all awful people, but i did still learn to be mindful about how i talked about my issues with religion around him
Trying to word this as carefully as I can so as not to drag you into it, or make you feel dragged.
I think the idea of “Joyce says religion is stupid” that’s come about in the commentariat since the Faith-Off is kinda focusing too much on the endpoint, where Joyce is angry and says things some teenage atheists on the internet have said and it resulted in Becky being sad and Sarah being disappointed, without really understanding Joyce and how genuinely crippling her lack of belief in God is for her and how badly traumatized she’s been, we just never noticed because she has big blue dinner plate eyes and a triangle smile and only ever got mad at jerk authority figures.
And this part here is teetering to the edge for me, because I’m making an assumption of the commentariat and that pretty much always blows up in my face, but I think most of us had a religious fallout the way I did; welp, guess I don’t believe in God anymore. What’s for dinner?
For me to say the things Joyce is saying would actually be me being an edgy atheist (you know, if I’m talking about the concept of belief and faith and religious practitioners and not, say, real world religious institutions and the damage they’ve caused), but that’s because religion never mattered to me, and I think a lot of us still went through that “edgy atheist” phase anyway, because when you’re young you are always a cringe edgelord and the cringiest edgelords of all were the ones who tried not to be, and I was indeed the cringiest edgelord.
And I think from there, we’re kind of applying our owned lived experience, where we were edgy atheists to something that didn’t cause most of us enormous amounts of pain (you’ve shared here and in other posts that this isn’t at all descriptive of your own experience), and once we wised up and realized theists we’re just ordinary blokes who put their pants on one leg at a time, like the actual evils we were lashing out against were just one part of the picture, we felt embarrassed and tried to refine that righteousness against persecution by religious institutions into something more meaningful without stepping on the toes of the folks who just go to church on Sunday.
But, that’s not Joyce, and, bluntly, religion has done no good by her. She believed in farces her friends constantly mocked her for, her mom valued her less than a man who pointed a gun at her face and kidnapped her, she had to be the protective guardian of her best friend because the people they were told to trust and obey without question were causing her immense and constant pain, and all of this happened for stuff that Joyce didn’t have faith in, she did not feel God’s presence, she was told he’s there and she just accepted that the way I accept that gravity works.
And she got to be mad about all of this for the first time in her life, and it blew up as bad as it did because her and Becky are totally co-dependent and then Joyce was forced to defend her newfound beliefs in an argument where the two of them were using the same words to have two separate conversations against the other who lived in their heads who thought and processed their belief in the exact same way, except Joyce’s newfound beliefs aren’t “God isn’t real”, they’re “every single thing I’ve ever been told was a lie and I have nothing to replace them.”
Joyce is as angry as she is because, between Becky, Dorothy and Sarah being completely unable to communicate with her for a second, believing she’s right is all she’s got, and it’s not like she thinks she’s right about anything in particular, because for her to be right would mean knowing what she’s right about other than the complete and total destruction of everything she was indoctrinated into.
And all of this, it’s real as hell, as real as it was for me to vaguely saunter away from believing in God and going to church.
I see Liz is channeling some Arrested Development there
She even brought her Naughty Teddy.
I know most people look back on their college years and cringe, but damn Liz is going to be embarrassed about this shit in hindsight.
She might even be embarrassed by this later tonight.
I once slept with someone, who, half-asleep afterwards, mumbled, ‘that was a mistake’.
I think I broke a speed record for post-coitus embarrassment.
Damn, harsh. Honestly that’s one of my big fears when it comes to sex. That someone looks back at the experience like “oops, shouldn’t have done that”.
One of the things that you have to learn as you grow up is to be less embarrassed and less worried about it. Because fear of being embarrassed is a paralysing obstacle to living, loving, and laughing. You can’t be dignified all the time. Chagrin is just something you have to get used to, a bit.
Fuck I still cringe about the stuff I did in Highschool.
I still cringe about shit I said a week ago
I’ve never stopped cringing. It’s my default state now.
Don’t forget horniness and anxiety!
You’re right. I am always horny, anxious and cringe. Thanks for reminding me. Also sad. I’m always sad too.
Even when looking at naked drawings of Jennifer???
I’m always a little bit sad. That’s my secret captain. Even when I’m happy I’m sad cuz being happy just feels wrong.
Me too. But mostly I’m just a neurotic mess.
This is a nigh-universal experience.
No one in the history of mankind who uses the term “weed drugs” is chill enough for a one night stand.
This! Liz wants to be ready for this. But she is not.
Counterpoint: Weed Drugs is hilarious as a term.
Oh my gosh…
So Liz was faking it. And you know it because buried under there was the need to hide. She’s trying to be rebellious but not really showing that rebellion in full because she’s counting on no one ever knowing her little secret tryst in this whole other city.
All righty. So she’s not as shallow as first thought.
I mean, she still has issues but now there’s something moderately more to her now.
Your gravatar is great for your comment.
Anyway, yeah. Imagine how Joyce would look to outsiders who haven’t spent as much time with her as we have.
oooooooh boy
Liz: Heya, Stud.
Joe: Are you quoting Grease?
Oh no…oh no this is a nightmare, I even knew that this might happen to him one day but I thought it be Joyce
Yep, that’s Joe’s current inner monologue all right.
“I want you to… to defile me.”
Joe: *cries*
(the first one is his dream/nightmare Joyce, to be clear)
Ah, sudden realization. Sarah doesn’t just want Joyce to stop changing because she loved her positivity, but because Joyce and Liz are on similar train wreck tracks. Trying desperately to non-conform to everything they once were. It’s hard enough to watch it with one person, but Sarah is getting it in stereo. Not that they aren’t allowed to change or grow as they want but now I see why Sarah was pushing back. She’s eating it twice over.
It also explains Sarah’s inexplicable big sisterness to Joyce.
Agree. I kinda want more Sarah backstory now. Sarah clearly got the hell over whatever religious upbringing was gone through. How much of it was shared? Which parent’s mother bought her that vibrator?
I get the impression that Sarah didn’t fall out of it so much as slide out of it while it was clearly a much bigger issue for Liz.
They apparently didn’t live together for long, so I assume their upbringings since were very different.
Thing about change is that even though it’s constant it’s not always Guaranteed to be for the best.
Maybe Sarah’s just a misanthropic asshole who needs someone around her to be happy so she can rely on them while never pulling any emotional weight.
Like maybe this is less “Sarah was right to fear Joyce’s downfall!” and more” damn Sarah you’re on little sister #2 and you still haven’t figured this shit out?”
Or maybe not.
Okay but consider the following:
I’m right and give me your money.
But you can’t take the space from me.
“Sky”.
Damn you Dune!
Joe’s brain is just going to shut down from the conflicting signals going off in there and he’s going to turn around and exit through the window.
And bump headfirst into Sal. The comic hasn’t had enough slapstick recently.
haha “Dangit, ah take tha windows cuz there’s NO TRAFFIC, WHAT GIVES”
Oh Liz is much different from what I originally thought. I figured she was further along the whole “de-sheltering” process but she’s basically at the same stage as Joyce. Hell, Joyce even seems a bit less “innocent” (using this loosely) than Liz since at least she could tell the difference between an edible and a daily vitamin. It would be kinda cruel of Joe to sleep with her knowing she has the mentality of an edgy 15 year old.
I think she’s further along than Joyce in some areas, while also being further behind Joyce in others. The biggest likely being that it seems Liz’s upbringing and relationship to Christianity, while restrictive/sheltering, wasn’t quite as cultish/toxic as Joyce’s, thus it seems like moving to secularism was less of a traumatic process for her than it was for Joyce. At the same time that very trauma also has exposed Joyce to the harsh realities of the transitionary process and is more aware of the ugly sides of the “real world”.
This sounds like something Joyce is about to say. Like in a week.
Oh Boy.
JOe >>MUST<< hear the Joyceness in this and wonder if hes about to wreck things.
Also hearing, Virgin who doesnt have birth control
Since she came to this campus with a Purpose I’d assume she also bought condoms on the way.
I mean are we sure she knows what condoms are?
I’m not being snarky here if she’s closer to Joyce’s life experiences there’s a solid chance her sexual education began and ended at “dont”
Their grandma bought Sarah a vibrator.
I think her family might be a bit more open. Maybe.
Could be a different grandma, one that Liz doesn’t readily have access too
My understanding of the family situation here is there are 3 possible sets of grandparents involved
This too. Liz’s outward Christian projection vs Sarah’s more laid back attitude towards religion may be due to a difference in upbringing since they’re half sisters, after all.
Also, Liz says something about posting Jesus memes to keep her stepmom off her case, adding another parental figure into the mix. Liz and Sarah share a mother, so if Liz spent her teen years with her father and stepmom, she grew up in a very different, probably far more religious environment than Sarah.
I guess it is worth remembering that if Liz is 18, then she and Sarah are just two years apart. Either there was a very amicable split or their dad was fooling around when Sarah was like, 1.
*Mom, not dad. Liz explicitly states that they share the same mother.
We must be pretty sure that Joe has condoms, right?
The only way I would buy him not having any would be digging into a box in a drawer and finding it empty. Oops!
better to double up (methods, not condoms!!) though. Also might still be in the evangelical framework of ‘condoms don’t make a difference anyway’ (although at least Joe isn’t)
also what my icon twin said
actually (replying to myself because I don’t know who I mean to say this to) this reminds me a lot of the arrested development “show me your secular ways” bit
The Last Temptation Of Joe
But seriously Joe don’t stick your little Joe in crazy
Crazy chicks need to stop being hot then! The crazy girls are always my favorite <3
Crazy chicks do promise awesome sexy times but the fallout isn’t worth it
Ladies don’t do the equivalent with crazy guys, in fact everyone avoid crazy
There exist non-crazy hot girls. I promise.
I don’t deny that they exist. I just find myself attracted to the crazier ones.
*plays “La Vida Loca” on the hacked Muzak, since no one else seems to be using it at the moment*
Any near Joe?
didn’t think so
Okay, fuck that phrase.
It’s such a little mix of outright misogyny and ableism, but said in a way that makes the person saying it sound like a fun frat bro.
yeah, even Amazi-Girl went over this
She was wrong, in that instance he was crazy or whatever is the correct term for it.
Also Amber wanted to differentiate herself, she certainly didn’t want to think of herself the same as a gun-toting, kidnapping crazy guy
Fine.
Don’t have sexy times with someone (or someones) with severe emotional (albeit temporary) issues because there’s a good chance you’ll regret it because the other person may not be able to handle the intense feelings that come with sharing such an emotional and physical act and they may then act out in a way that you do not expect because of the difficulty they have in processing those feelings and this may include but not limited to stalking, jealousy, violence towards other, self harm and depression
Joe: “I care about informed consent and I’m not sure this is it.”
“I’m getting a lot of information right now, and it’s all bad.”
This. I don’t recall anybody specifying informed consent in prior discussion.
Oops. … informed consent …
Hello, Bizarro Joyce.
Joyce should be so lucky to have two Bizarro selves (Liz and Lucy).
The name’s Anti-Joyce. It’s just that this time she figured that if she didn’t come back as a clone, she might not get shot through the head.
See now I agree that saying no is the ‘right thing.’
Or if it’s yes it’s gotta have a lot of talk first and I doubt she’d stick around for it once she realizes there’s other promiscuous boys around.
A “Yes, but let’s take it slow” would do wonders here. Show her the ropes in a very mature and experienced manner. No need to rush in. Let’s take our time and let me get to know you as a person and you get to know me. And then we’ll fuck.
Tbh that’d be really neat as a First Time experience.
It’s something I hope I get. I’m a 27 year old virgin so the ODDS that my partner will know what she’s doing are pretty damn high. I would absolutely love to just be shown the ropes in a slow and steady manner and really learn about each other.
And then we’ll fuck.
If you’re interested, I have a story of sleeping with a prostitute at age 25. Only time *I* had sex and…holy hell, it can feel empty without emotional intimacy, even if the girl is attractive and freindly.
Exactly! I really want to like the person I have my first time with. Like someone I can be “friends” with and also do the sex. Friends with benefits is my goal just because a friend that you can have sex with sounds super ideal to me. I like friends.
Same. But I’d beware of the “friends with benefits” route, if only because the “friends” part isn’t often emphasized enough. Like, sex is fun, but so is masturbation with toys and lube. The kicker comes from taking time to separate the pervasive idea that “sex = love” in of itself.
Yeah, friends should be equal to or greater than the benefits in the Friends with Benefits dynamic. Ah well. Sex stuff is complicated.
Yotomoe, mrnoidea, YES YES YES to ALL of this!
Yeah — I can see Joe realizing that he’s a horndog but a responsible one, and that Liz could pick someone much worse if she’s in the mood to fling herself at anyone who’s potentially interested. So, slightly awkward lecture about consent and birth control because you know the abstinence only sex ed didn’t cover it, followed by a hookup that’ll stop the second she decides she’s not actually as ready as she thought.
Is it just me, or do Liz’s eyes seem to be crossed a lot?
Liz is looking up at something close to her (Joe’s face). It does kind of give the appearance of her being cross eyed but, when your gaze is focused, sometimes your eyes go inwards
Aw Liz. Bud.
You know there’s something else I also go to wonder. Joe has gotten with a lot of girls before but has he ever punched someone’s V-card before? This has got to be new territory.
Depends on when he first got laid.
If it was high school? Likely mutual virgins, unless it was with an older woman.
I am. If sure if Liz is a virgin based on the interaction she had with Sarah in this Strip
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/pickyeater/
Although just beacuse she went after Sarah’s crush doesn’t mean she had sex.
Yes…
YES
GIVE IN TO YOUR SECOND THOUGHTS, JOE
So thing just got way har-….um more difficult for Joe now right. This has essentially been his wet dream. The ideal girl I believe.
Nah, Liz doesn’t own a motorbike.
“But I don’t own a motorbike.
Here’s an idea that I like.
Spend my last few hours getting freeeeeeakyyyyyyyyy”
I think she is, to a tee, what Joe Pegged Joyce as becoming in early DOA.
Ahhh, Liz, your ex-Joyce is showing.
I have a feeling Joe’s not gonna have sex with her. Not because ‘it might upset Joyce’ (they’re not together) but because HE has feelings for Joyce and now he doesn’t wanna.
Right. And then he is going to have to deal with the fact that there is a definite creep factor involved in saving yourself for someone who is not into being saved for.
I don’t think you have to be saving yourself for someone to not want to have sex with someone while crushing on someone else. Sometimes that really does kill the desire.
Yeah that.
Joe saying no on the grounds of “but Joyce” would be more down to how he feels about her and that he wouldn’t be up for it elsewhere.
Sure. If Joe doesn’t want to bang Liz now because he has a crush on Joyce he ought to say “no, thanks”, just as if he didn’t want to bang her for any other reason.
But also, if Joe has a crush on Joyce that he feels he cannot act on because he has already wreck his chance with Joyce and she despises him (they way she says she does), but that makes him disinclined to other women he ought to do something to treat that, such as counselling or hexameter. Because nursing the crush and waiting for Joyce to change is creepy.
Joe doesn’t actually think he has a chance with Joyce.
More to the point, he’s a little glad about that, because if he ever started dating her the possibility, and thus the inevitability, of betraying and hurting her now exists.
Right, so refusing other women because of his crush on Joyce [unattainable] would be super unhealthy, and he ought to do something about it, like counselling if necessary, or hexameter.
You don’t need to be nursing the crush and waiting for someone to change to have a crush on someone you don’t think will like you and not be interested in anyone else. Sometimes you just gotta wait the crush out.
Wait it out or work it out, but not nurse it. The more you rehearse or reiterate in your mind the though that you love some particular person the more of a habit that becomes and the slower you wait it out.
Sure, but I don’t think Joe’s going to do that – I think he’s going to say no to Liz because he’s into Joyce and not feeling it but I don’t think there’s going to be anything creepy that happens.
Also because because Liz is right now basically shouting that she’s not at all ready and that this will be an emotional mess, not a casual, purely physical hookup. Old Joe might have looked past that, taken her up on it anyway then kicked her out the door rather than deal with the aftermath. New Joe, who’s trying to be better about hurting women, can’t do that.
Aight hit me
In what way is she shouting that she’s not at all ready for this, when what she’s literally shouting is “I super want some good dick fr.”
Why are we treating sex as this innately traumatizing thing for her?
I wouldn’t call it innately, but having sex when you aren’t ready can absolutely be traumatizing. To me, Liz is showing a lot of signs that she could wake up in the morning and find herself feeling like she made a huge mistake.
When are you ready to have sex if not when you’re going “haha yeah having sex would be awesome.”
Maybe when it’s obvious the person saying it’s not emotionally in the best of places, same as being drunk or high? Chrissakes, earlier in the comic those were literally the three reasons Joe gave as examples of what he’d find valid reasons to turn down someone propositioning him.
Is she drunk? Crying? Depressed?
‘Cause it sounds to me like you’re seeing her verbally and eagerly confirm her desire to have sex, and then going “oh but actually here’s why it’ll emotionally traumatize her.”
If I said I could lift 400lbs with my right hand, does that make is so? I know this may seem to you like it won’t traumatize her, and I could be wrong in my take, but I’ve said similar things, while sober, and woken up the next morning feeling awful about it. I felt so weird and uncomfortable with it that I honestly didn’t tell anyone about it for months, and even then it was only because they had found out from the other person. So no, her verbally saying “heck yeah. I’m ready” does not mean that she’s ready.
An adult woman can choose to have sex in a way that she probably can’t lift a 400lb weight with one hand.
Moreover, whatever feelings you had, you had them because you had the right to choose to have them
Yes, and if I had anyone coming to me saying those things I would choose to not risk letting them go through with it with me. The reason is that I don’t want other people to go through that if I can stop it. Also, I never said she couldn’t make her own choices or go through with this. I’m just saying that I think the best thing for Joe to do, if he’s able to see the potential for trauma here that I do, would be to turn her down, for her sake. Based on your flippant response, I’m sure you don’t think that’s a valid excuse to turn her down, but I assure you, it is.
Also, you’re right I did choose to have sex when I wasn’t ready. I know that. It doesn’t make the pain I dealt with because of it any less difficult, and I don’t need some person on the internet to tell me that it was my choice, thank you very much.
I do actually think it’s super goddamn wack to try and decide that someone who’s a legal adult, sober, and verbally expressing eagerness to have sex because sex is a thing she wants to do is actually not competent enough to have sex, yeah.
I’m not a therapist, I have no ability to talk about your feelings nor do I particularly want to, but I’m in fundamental disagreement with the idea of overriding someone else’s stated desire to have sex on the grounds of, actually, they don’t really want it or it’d be bad if they did. If I myself don’t want to do it because I think it’d end badly, well, yep, that’s a reason, and a reason is all you need to decide why you don’t want to have sex even if that reason is no reason at all, but I’m not into taking ownership of someone else’s life.
Saying no is not taking ownership of their life. Me saying no to someone is not me saying they can’t have sex. It’s me saying they can’t have sex with me. If the reason for that is I think they will regret it afterwards, guess what, I’m saying no. If they decide to find someone else to have sex with after that, that’s on them, but I will not engage in something with someone that I think they could regret for the rest of their lives. If you think that makes me a terrible person, so be it.
That sounds like you don’t want to have sex with them as a matter of your personal judgment, as in how it’d affect you, as in how your opinion of having sex with someone is being influenced by whether or not it feels right to you.
Not that you totally want to have sex but this other completely competent and aware adult shouldn’t be allowed to choose for herself.
No one is saying that two completely consenting adults can’t have sex. If you gathered that from any of what I said, you misinterpreted the point.
You assumed that people were pulling from nowhere the notion that Liz could be traumatized, and I merely suggested to you that it was a possibility, despite her outwardly saying that she was ready. Me stating that was a possibility was never a means to say, don’t have sex with people even if they say they are ready. It was me trying to say if you truly doubt someone is ready do have sex, and you don’t want them to go through any trauma because of it, maybe don’t have sex with them. And I’m sure someone is going to suggest that this is Joe we are talking about here and he doesn’t care, but I think he’s made a lot of strides in that direction. I think if he sees the possibility of Liz being traumatized, he would make the choice to turn her down, feelings for Joyce or not.
The “possibility” of her being traumatized is still taking ownership of her capacity for judgment if you’re doing it because you’re deciding she’s not ready as opposed to “I want to walk away from this hot mess.”
Like, this idea of her being traumatized because she fucked a dude she walked up to for the explicit purpose of fucking him, are you doing it for her own good or are you doing it because the situation is making you uncomfortable?
If I’m uncomfortable doing something with someone because I don’t think its good for them, is there a difference? Does that difference matter since its still my choice to say no? Would you be arguing the same stance if I said I’m not going to let a person use my yard to throw dynamite into a fire solely because I think they could be hurt because of it? (that example may seem random, but I’ve been told by multiple people its a fun past time of theirs)
Yep, you got it. “I don’t want to have sex because I think it’ll be bad for her” can mean a number of things like your personal discomfort, existing or unfamiliar relationship, literally any reason you want as it pertains to your choice. If you think it’s bad for her then you’re removing yourself from the equation, which is to say that you’re not against her having sex, you’re against her having sex with you.
But that still factors you into it, that’s still a decision being made on whether or not to bang where your feelings matter. That’s not you being totally willing to fuck her and other partners and then taking ownership of her ability to decide for herself, where you’re totally able to decide but she can’t.
To draw back to the in-comic scenario where this exact thing happened: Danny was propositioned by Billie, he turned her down (for a healthy reason, we’ll get to that), and when Joe asked he started moralizing about how he wouldn’t sleep with her because he “had his principles” and that he wanted to have sex with her because “he’s not dead”, but he “didn’t want to take advantage of her.”
Which is to say that Danny decided for Billie that she wasn’t capable of having sex, that he wanted to but he decided for her not that she couldn’t have sex with him, but that she was just incapable of having sex in general, and that her stated intent and eagerness to do so was not something she had any control or insight over. Danny just knew better than Billie on whether or not she could fuck at all. He could decide when to have sex, he’s not dead, after all, but Billie could not.
So Joe called him an idiot and Danny admitted “okay actually I’m just not ready so soon after Dorothy and I’m still hung up on her.”
(who the fuck throws dynamite into a fire pit)
I honestly can’t seem to grasp what exactly you are arguing any more. It feels like we’ve gotten way off track of our original arguments.
(my second cousin throws dynamite into a fire pit/bonfire)
We haven’t, and I’m not sure what’s hard to grasp about what I’m saying.
You can choose not to have sex with a partner for any reason (say “man, I think this would end badly for X reason”) and also it’s weird to declare a competent, sound, sober, legal adult as incapable of being able to choose to have sex or to be unable to handle it afterwards.
It is absolutely weird to declare a competent, sound, sober, legal adult as incapable of being able to choose to have sex. I think making speculations on how said person might react to the sex isn’t weird though.
If I said, “This would be great for Liz. She’ll be a lot happier with having sex here with someone she just met, and its good that she can do it away from Ball State too,” would you consider that weird, since its speculating on how she would react to the sex but in a good way? If that is weird what about speculating that Joyce will be upset about this because she has feelings for Joe? It seems to me like your issue is either that people are speculating about how Liz will react to sex in this situation, or that they’re speculating that she will react poorly. If its the former, what’s so different about speculating on how a character would react to sex vs speculating how a character would react to any other situation?
Also, I know Joyce being upset about it may be a bit unjustified considering how she presented her relation ship with Joe, but I think she will be upset all the same.
I mean yeah speculate away, just don’t go “but what if she reacts badly to it?” as a way to say why she can’t bone someone, like in the context of a real world scenario.
“Liz will be better off with this” sounds sensible to me in that she’s openly declaring her desire for sex but that’s also a conversation that dips into Liz being a fictional character we can make a judgment on how she’d react to sex, as opposed to the real life scenario of respecting sexual agency.
I dunno what speculating about Joyce or Liz has to do with the topic of “whether or not a competent, aware, sober, legal adult can decide if they want to have sex”, which is what this whole conversation started about where we were both discussing that in a real life context.
The Joyce question was me trying to gauge at what point the speculation stopped being weird for you, as the speculation seemed to be something you were uncomfortable with. I don’t think anyone here is actually suggesting that “what if she reacts badly to it” is a good reason to try to stop that person from trying to have sex.
I’ve been talking about this in the real world context of “deciding someone else is incapable of sex”, which I thought you were too given how you were talking about it, as opposed to “whether or not Liz the fictional character will be sad about it later.”
I was talking about real life as well. I never said anyone should be barred from having sex if they were of legal age and in their right mind though. And I stand by that you shouldn’t bar someone from sex in that scenario, unless you are the person they want to have sex with (if they are attempting with someone else, it’s not your place to stop them) and you feel uncomfortable with doing so for any reason, including on the grounds that you don’t think they are ready for sex.
Having kinda personally been in Liz’s shoes about this one specific thing (less due to religious upbringing and more due to being a known weirdo in high school who suddenly got kinda cute in college) I can definitively say that saying ‘sex would be awesome!’ does not necessarily mean you’re ready for *all the things that can come with* sex. It might mean you’re super ready to have it with someone who will be exactly what you’re looking for (and Joe might actually be that here by pure coincidence), but I also suspect she has some lingering ideas about how it will go, and would be pretty upset if it doesn’t go that way.
I don’t know that for sure, of course, but the “like it’s no big deal” line reads to me like it very much is a big deal to her still but she’s pretending like it’s not because that’s who she thinks she SHOULD be, because she’s secular now and that’s what secular girls DO.
This is all to say, she might be secular and she might want to have sex, but she might not realize being a little more careful about the partner she chooses beyond “is cute” and “is here and presumably willing to have sex” will give her a better shot at a good first experience. It’s not something she has to get out of the way as soon as possible.
What’s ready enough to have sex, if not deciding you are ready? If your expectations for sex extend beyond the act, is that not something you have to come to terms with independent of whether or not you can? Is it harmful to rush into it, or is it only harmful because of the cultural narrative of “when is it right to fuck?” we’ve built?
Over in Shortpacked!, Ken built up this whole narrative about how losing his virginity was something he was gonna do with Malaya when he finally asked her out. Then he banged Conquest because they both wanted to and he had a great time and then stopped pining after Malaya because Malaya is a hemorrhoid and started hanging out with Lucy.
Sometimes, fucking for fun is the answer.
Hm I do agree with you, so maybe there are two questions here.
1–is she ready for sex? Sure. Regardless of her reasons, that’s something that no one else gets to decide for her. So if she’s not just trying to convince herself , and she’s sincere in believing she’s ready, then she’s ready. (Side note: An actual person I would take at their word until they tell me differently. A character in fiction has a little more room for speculation since their words are chosen for them to convey a narrative, and since I can’t ask for clarification directly)
2–would she ultimately look back with more fondness at her first time (or first few times) if she took a little more time to either get past some of her own internalized cultural hangups or find someone a little more emotionally safe, before doing the actual thing? Maybe or maybe not! It depends on a lot of variables, and she doesn’t strike me as being aware of some of the important ones, and I do think with this approach it’d be mainly down to luck.
As an adult, she’s fully entitled to make decisions that may or may not turn out well for her (and yeah, with Joe, it may very well be a pretty good experience if he’s down!) But I think it’s also fair to question whether those constitute *good* decisions.
All that said, based on what she knows, and what she thinks she knows, Joe isn’t the worst choice to go after like this. He’s unlikely to be outright dangerous. So it all makes sense that from her perspective that she’d decide to do this. But from the perspective of someone who’s been through similar, it looks a lot like a mistake.
Look, just cuz Joe shouldn’t sleep with Liz does not mean he shouldn’t like…make out with her, right? Kissing is still on the table? Maybe 2nd base at most?
Misread “Joe” as “Joyce”. Which would probably be an even worse idea.
I’m not gonna make that mistake TWICE in one night.
Look, if we’re gonna fantasize, then it isn’t a mistake.
Personally I don’t even think that’s a problem. Putting the feelings for Joyce aside for a moment, they’re both old enough to consent. This is kind of the Dina issue all over again where someone can be perceived as immature on infantilized when that’s not the case. If Liz thinks she’s ready than go for it. I imagine this will be the same for Joyce whenever she decides to actually get laid.
Also like consent isn’t a binary it’s an ever present thing so I don’t think Joe would just go to bone town so yeah, making out and grinding could be where they decide to stop which would still be a fun experience.
Joe spent some off-screen time with her.
If he turns her down because he thinks it would be a mistake oon her part, points to him.
I kind of want Joe yo do that, and for Danny to see and go ‘wtf?’ Because even if Joe has forgotten, Danny remembers how Joe reacted when he, Danny, turned down Billie-as-was-now-Jennifer for a very similar reason.
Basically I would like Joe to be cornered into talking Feelings with his eternal bestie.
Oh, he’d deny it had anything to do with Feelings. He’d make it about responsibility, as an addition to his 3-point list of consent rules.
Yeah, I was thinking about that comparison. Very different characters and motivations, but the same sense of “this ticks all the right checkboxes for being okay, but damn are there red flags everywhere.”
God making out and Grinding sounds about where I want this to go now. I wouldn’t mind a slipshine where they just get really hot and heavy but don’t fuck.
Ethically, there’s really nothing wrong with Joe saying yes to this. She’s giving an unequivocal, verbal yes, even if it’s clearly weird and probably more emotional than Joe is comfortable with.
The only reason Joe should really say no is because he’s uncomfortable and thereby is unwilling to consent to this himself. And… that’s up to him.
If Joe doesn’t have a condom supply in his dorm room, I will be extermely displeased.
She’s Joyce, but, like, two steps further down the road.
People keeps comparing her to Joyce, but now I’m thinking of Roz
Like they fuzed. I could see it haha.
Yeah, I don’t really like the Joyce comparison.
But that’s probably because I rather like Joyce and rather dislike Liz.
More like she’s pretending to be Roz, since she thinks that cool atheists are like, but she’s nowhere near ready to pull it off.
Eh, I think Roz is genuinly confident in her sexuility while Liz is trying to be.
*with the same voice as two-face in Arkham city*
2 repressed ex Christians!
https://youtu.be/Z26mV6v_qLU
Crap, she even has a similar smile to Joyce. Not quite triangular but it’s close.
Aren’t you happy that college is shaping up to your expectations, Joe?
Liz: “For All The Wrong Reasons”
“How do you do, fellow atheist? Let us do atheist things.”
“Um, I never said I was an atheist. I mean, sure, I don’t believe in Jesus, but that’s because I’m Jewish. (You do know about the existence of Jews, right?)”
“Certainly. They crucified Jesus Christ, but had repented by the time Martin Luther King nailed his theses to the door of the Vatican”
Dang can’t believe this character who we already know has to lie about still being faithful to her stepmom has complicated feelings about her religion and adulthood exacerbated through the mockery of her peer group.
Shame that nobody at IU is going through the same. Liz could really bond wit them.
so ethics question time, is it assault if she thinks shes on drugs so she cant consent, but actually wasn’t on drugs so she can, but he gave her the not drugs making her think she was high.
Considering this would be *informed* consent, I’d argue Joe would have to admit to her they’re not really drugs.
Good point.
No. Just no.
That’s not even how consent on real drugs works.
What the fuck are you talking about
AMAZIINNGGNGNG
AMAZZIIIINNNNNNNNNGGGGGGG
I LOVE THIS.
It is the funniest way this could have gone 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Joe you are allowed to say no. Just because society expects a single young man to be ready for sex at the drop of the hat doesn’t mean you have to go along with it.
Yeah. But Society says that really loud and very often. And it’s not just oneself who hears it, but a lot of women, too. So it ends up being very hard to say “no thanks” without offending or insulting a woman who has screwed up her courage to the sticking-place and made a pass at a man in defiance of what Society expects of her. It’s painful enough to get shot down when Society has taught you to make passes and expect mostly knockbacks. It will be excruciatingly embarrassing for Liz if the certified slut Joe turns down her offer.
I think when Liz gets mad at Joe for turning her down, she’s going to bring up Joyce (“You have sex with her and not me?!?”). And Joe will explain that he and Joyce never had sex, outing Joyce in the process.
I think he might be too gobsmacked at the thought that Joyce said that to explain much.
He was there for the “friends with a reward program” bit. He’s had time to get over the gobsmacked.
I think Joe was there when she said that though. They were in Joe’s room at the time weren’t they?
I’m reminded of when Danny turned down Billie for sex.
Remember, kids, say no to men’s multivitamin gummies!
So Liz can’t even get away from pretending to be Christian on her own campus full time. She keeps up the act for everyone there? Dang, feel kind of sorry for her. I mean I know she was part of that weird Christian group which if I’m gleaning from past comments right is apparently kind of awful but I wondered if she just used them for photos and a veneer for her step mother/parents at most. Like maybe she dedicated Sundays or whatever and that’s it. This suggests a type of commitment to an act which almost borders on self harm. I mean on some level I can’t blame her: tuition is hell in the US and you do what you gotta do.
Makes sense given her knowledge of multivitamins too. She hasn’t really had an opportunity to use her freedom yet and has weird assumptions. Still has part of her upbringing/past religion eating her brain.
It could be that she just doesn’t want to go through the process of announcing and explaining her new deconversion to all her friends and classmates, at least not right away.
She may want some time to come to terms with the change in herself before telling others about it, for all kinds of reasons. We’ve seen Joyce go through this as well.
Her circle of friends there might be much more religious that Joyce’s is here.
She might also not be nearly so atheist as she’s suggesting – this whole trip might be an excuse to experiment with the idea.
Other way around. She’s being condescended at for being a Jesus freak.
Like, maybe Liz’s relation with her faith was that it gave her nothing and was a source of mockery in people she’d otherwise like to get to know, but she’s forced to keep up appearances to please someone with too much control in her life.
Could that be relevant to a certain other character?
It seems she more fears their disapproval.
Advertising works!
I’m speechless.
Now that Sal has demonstrated The Way, Joe is absolutely going out the window.
“Is Joe in?”
Sound of glass being broken
“No, he just left.”
I see you’re a person of culture as well
I am but a humble meme farmer
Making a running dive through a third story window sounds like a good way to break your everything
But not your new-found restraint and respect for women!
What if they don’t do the horizontal tango, but she claims they did. Whose side will everyone believe? (Particularly Joyce and Sarah?)
Maybe Danny’s back at the dorm just as a witness to reinforce Joe’s (truthful) story in that scenario.
I think part of the point is that she WON’T claim they did – the whole “no one at Ball would even know”.
This is probably worth highlighting.
Liz isn’t just lying to her stepmom while being free-spirited at Ball State, she’s keeping up appearances with her peers and they’re mocking her for it.
You think Joyce had it bad when everyone around her constantly made fun of her for believing stupid bullshit? That’s probably a lot harder when you don’t even believe in the things you’re saying that you’re getting laughed at for.
I think the suggestion was that she’d tell people here that they did it – particularly Joyce and Sarah.
I think she would lie to her sister and new acquaintances at IU, if only to try that clout on for size. It would let her be Fun Liz a little while longer, before she has to be Fundie Liz again back at Ball.
Really not understanding these “ Liz is a horrible, awful decrepid human beiiiiing” statements.
Guys, chill out… she’s a teenager in a cringe phase… calm down
As is most of the cast.
(Also desperately in need of (good) therapy.)
(A therapist would be SO FREAKING RICH with this goldmine of issues)
But seriously all this moral extremities everyone stretches for is making me HURT!
LIZ IS A TERRIBLE HUMAN BEING, SHE SAID A MEAN THING IN A PRIVATE CONVERSATION, SHE’S AWFUL!
UGH JOE DON’T HAVE SEX WITH HER *OTHER PEOPLE* WILL BE MAD THAT YOU HAD SEX WITH A CONSENTING YOUNG ADULT!
Ugh Dorthey is literally satan because she expressed disappointment at Joyce’s behavior instead of instantly becoming a wise matriarch and cooing to Joyce to sooth her temper and explain herself perfectly and rationally.
Ya’ll these are teenagers, the fact none of them have gone straight to a bottle of alcohol to drown their feelings is a plus.
PS Joe should not have to get Sarah or anyone elses approval other than Liz’s to have consensual sex with Liz.
LIZ is capable of saying yes, she is under no influence and she wants to do it, if they talk it out and it turns out Joe is actually not comfortable being someone’s first time/ the situation in general that’s perfectly okay for him to say no.
Liz is not entitled to a yes, Sarah definitely isn’t entitled to a consent form, and Joyce thinks Joe is garbage and shouldn’t be a factor in if Joe does the dirty with anyone.
But I’ma just sit and enjoy the show and read the comments, so much like…anger here lately it’s getting a bit too intense for a webcomic about teens doing a dumb.
Liz’ hair is very pretty with those loose locks around her face.
Isn’t it though? I love how Willis draws hair, you can really visualize the texture and weight of it when he draws it
Is this boing to be a reverse of when Danny said no to Billie, and Joe told him off? 😛
Now that’s an interesting insight on Liz
She’s alot more Joyce-like than I definitely expected
Yeah, until this strip went live I thought she was only keeping up appearances on social media. This is a rare opportunity for her to let her hair down, and she’s going to make the most of it even if that means pushing herself far outside her comfort zone.
I don’t want Joe to Joe Liz because Joe/Joyce however both are of legal age, sober and no ones in a position of power
A very small part of me actually wants Joe to do this because of casual “fuck you” Sarah says to Joe, like not saying he doesn’t deserve some s**t but if you want somebody to do something then insulting them first isn’t the way to go
Also it gets a bit boring the whole “I’d kill for them” because no most likely you will not so its hollow bravado and if you assaulted Joe…well you’d rightfully be sent to prison
However I’d rather Joe didn’t
The back of my mind was wondering why “cool friend Liz” wasn’t suspicious of Joyce’s clumsy show of worldliness and I guess I know why now
You’d think (lack of) game would recognize (lack of) game, but they were caught up in a mutually perpetuated feedback loop.
No that I look back at it, Good Energy seems to be a more important strip than I realised at first.
Liz and Joyce are both using Joe as a means to exercise the freedom that they want without coming out to their judgmental friends. Does the parallel suggest what is going to happen next?
Or has Joe learned to say “Come and see me when you are prepared to be open about what you are doing.”
I love how Joe is speechless. Liz looks at him with so much hope and saying so much♡… I don’t think he has ever been in a situation like this. I still think Joe might offer her a place to sleep without doing anything else and then be accused of have done everything by a furious Sarah.
Okay. So Liz is a far bigger poser than we all thought.
And she’s basically using this trip as a secret trial run of her brand new atheist/secular identity. Or no one at Ball State believes her deconversion?
…Also, her opinions on Christians appears to be from internaliizing others mockery.
Overall, Joe should say no.
(1) He implicitly promised Sarah he wouldn’t and while Sarah doesn’t have any real authority over either of them, come on.
(2) It’s a shitty thing to kick your roommate out of the room at night with no warning.
(3) There’s something sketchy about sleeping with someone who believes you are both mutually under the influence (of something).
Joe fears the bat.
Joe and Joyce hook up and then Sarah takes a swing at him going “you banged my little sister!”
Then Joe catches the bat with one hand and says “actually, we’ve developed a strong emotional bond of valuing each other’s time and supporting mutual growth and understanding of our feelings.”
And the entire time the Ultra Instinct music is playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8qg-XzHgUk
Maybe I’m wrong, but I have the feeling that Joe will end banging Sarah before any of her little sisters.
That it’s a Twist I would love to see.
Joe you promised Sarah not to do this exact thing.
Only way around this would be to like introduce her to a friend so she’s someone else’s problem. Then again I think the only friend Joe has who’s single is like Jacob.
Is it not weird to need to promise you won’t bang someone who wants to bang you, because someone you don’t like and who constantly verbally affirms how much she thinks you’re a piece of shit that you never hang out with anyway told you not to?
I know the overprotective big sibling protecting their baby sister’s chastity has some folksy charm to it, but also that’s weird, stop it.
Not only that, but I get the feeling Liz is forcing herself to do this more as a rite of passage, because This Is What Uninhibited Secular People Do and it’s another milestone checked off her decompression to-do list.
If that’s true, his hesitation suggests he sees right through her act. That’s the sort of thing Stereotype Joe would be down for, but he doesn’t want to be Stereotype Joe anymore.
Joe can resent the person he used to be because he used treat women like slots to insert his dick into and Liz can also actually just want to have sex on the grounds of “what the fuck have I been missing out on this whole time?!”
Sex isn’t that important, it’s not that big a deal. We just market it that way, we treat it like there has to be some grand meaning. It’s, actually, totally okay to come from a repressive and stifling upbringing and feel a burning need to break away from it as hard as you can, even if you don’t know what a weed drug is.
I think you misunderstand. I’m not saying it’s a bad idea because Sarah is his friend and this will piss her off.
I’m saying that Sarah fucking hates him and this will piss her off. Like there will be a murdercide here.
Everything pisses Sarah off. She’ll cope.
With murder!
Well DamnYouWillis here I was all comfortable disliking Liz for cynically getting laughs off of Joyce’s naivete and then it turns out I was just being a judgmental asshole and she doesn’t know much and is still scared to come out of the closet herself.
Please Joe, don’t take advantage
How do you take advantage of someone going “hey let’s have sex?”
When you suspect that someone doesn’t really want to have sex for whatever reason?
When that someone is acting like they might have impaired judgement due to any number of reasons?
Look, I’m all into ethical non-monogamy and free love and that, but if I’m in Joe’s shoes I’m not going ANYWHERE near sexy times with Liz, at least not without a serious conversation about the hell she’s actually thinking.
Your suspicion means you know better than them, eh?
“Impaired judgment”, huh?
So what are you trying to say here? I’m obligated to say “yes” to sex regardless of how strange the situation seems to me?
(also I was a bouncer/bartender in college, there are a LOT of situations where my suspicion meant I was *legally obligated* to act like I knew better than someone I suspected was impaired.)
You’re having trouble differentiating between “why I don’t want to have sex with this person on the grounds of *literally any reason, including the absence of a reason*” and deciding why someone else is incapable of deciding they want to have sex when they say they do.
I feel reasonably certain that a college freshman escaping from a restrictive home life and getting really, really excited about all the stuff they were now free to do is not that fantastical a concept.
Also she’s not impaired. She took a multivitamin she thought was an edible, it was the punchline to a whole strip.
And I’m saying I’ve seen enough people who were doing more or less this EXACT thing (“Look, fuck god, let’s get drugged up and have sex!”) and then have really strong regrets about it in the next day or week.
Joe is absolutely allowed to make that judgement and decline to be a part of it.
And yes, I’m aware she’s not impaired. I’ve also seen (college bartender!) enough people decide that they were going to have one beer as a excuse to try on some new behavior “due to impairment” that they weren’t internally 100% sure of.
Again: in Joe’s shoes, I see this woman who is CLEARLY #1 under the impression she’s on weed and #2 obviously FAKING enthusiasm about wanting sex (and bonus #3 assuming Joe has no judgement about who he has sex with (“I KNOW you’re up for it”)).
There’s no way I’d take chances with it.
Okay but, crucially, you are not taking the chance because you are uncomfortable. You’re not totally dtf but “well she’s totally incompetent and helpless, and thus cannot make a decision.”
You can actually have sex and then feel bad about it later. That’s fine too. Maybe the reason we’re so hung up about “but what about the potential consequences?!?!” because we treat casual and consensual sex as having more meaning than it has to.
Pointedly, I’ll also note that Liz’s phrasing in the last panel makes it abundantly unclear whether LIZ is aware she’s not actually on any “weed drugs”.
Again in Joe’s shoes, I’m wondering if she’s pushing herself into this believing she’s stoned, and it merits discussion rather than jumping straight into it.
You take advantage by ignoring how discomforted YOU are by it.
Joe doesn’t have to have sex if it isn’t something he’d enjoy.
Do you think there might be a difference between deciding for yourself whether you want to have sex and deciding why the other person isn’t competent enough.
I think if you can’t imagine picking up vibes someone is uncomfortable with something they’re ostensibly agreeing with means that you might need to broaden your horizons a bit. I’ve agreed to a lot of shit over the years that people were nice enough to realize I was just going along with.
Okay let me try it again but with less subtlety:
Do you think there’s a difference between Joe being uncomfortable, and Joe declaring Liz unable to decide whether or not she’s capable of having sex, the way Danny did to Billie that one time?
When something seems ‘off’ I’m well within the bounds of decency to say ‘We can circle back around to this if you still feel the same way later’. She’s clearly going through some stuff and no roll is worth being part of someone’s regret later.
‘Thinking of sex like Joyce does’ and thinking of sex as a totally meaningless entertainment with no emotional import are not the only two options here.
Does it seem off because the situation is making you uncomfortable, as in you have a reason you don’t want to have sex with this person, or is it off because you’re deciding she’s not emotionally equipped to have sex? Not with you, specifically, but whether or not she is a competent enough person to engage in sex.
Because if you’re processing this as “meaningless entertainment with no emotional import”, the emotional important is in Liz asserting herself away from the sneering contempt of her peers for being a Jesus Freak and the stifling upbringing she’s been faced with from her stepmom to the point where she has to pretend she buys into all that dumb bullshit.
Whatever, man. There’s such a thing as just treading lightly. If you don’t like it, that’s your privilege.
Treading lightly around what, exactly?
Amusingly, this is the conversation Danny and Joe were having a while back about Jennifer, formerly known as Billie, throwing herself at Danny for what Danny suspected were the wrong reasons.
Re: whether she’s making herself believe she impaired so as to “justify” her behaviour, it cuts both ways. Sure, believing you’re impaired can lead to you actually being impaired, but OTOH, you can also use it as a tool to give yourself permission and ease into what you legitimately decided you want to do/be, but still have hangups about.
Can’t speak for Vulcanodon, but for me it seems off specifically do to some of her word choices. Particularly the “I want to do secular things” line.
I don’t get the sense that she necessarily is seeking a quick hookup out of any particular lustful craving, but rather because it’s what the secular people do (which ironically strikes me as a rather religious way of going about it). It feels kinda like she’s viewing sex as something she needs to do to prove to herself that she’s secular now, which….like I don’t know any specific words to describe what exactly my brain is interpreting that as, but something is definitely off with that sort of rationale.
Yup. That’s definitely part of it.
All I’m really getting is that plenty of y’all think of sex like Joyce does, and more than you’d care to admit.
One lesson drilled into my head that I still ascribe by is, “Sex is when you want to have it and you should never be ashamed if you’re not ready or uncomfortable it it.”
Joe doesn’t look interested. He looks creeped out.
If you want a random hookup. Go for it. If not, don’t. Its why I support Becky taking her time.
I would say more like Danny. “What if she regrets it.”
Though that’s more like half of the arguments. Others are less ‘seconds is super serious” and more wondering about the social backlash such as how Sarah and Joyce will react or how Liz will act afterwards. (Like will she be able to continue treating it casually or will she take it more seriously then it actually is?)
As a vibrator placed directly on the bellybutton?
I think it was her neck.
The ones she used as hair curlers was funnier tbh
“PUT IT IN MY BELLYBUTTON ETHAN”
That was a weird sex nightmare, it doesn’t count!
This never happened to me at Earlham, did I go to the wrong School in Indiana?
Is this evil joyce?
Transporter accident; happens all the time.
I’d make a Tuvix joke, but “Joyce” and “Liz” make some unfortunate portmanteaus.
Joiz
Liyce. Sexy!
No.
She doesn’t seem all that evil
She’s Joyce but willing to act on desires she’s been told she’s too childish and naive to have.
Soooo Anti-Joyce, who wasn’t really that evil but Joyce still shot her in the face.
Joe realising that saying yes in this specific situation despite every indication would be a bad thing.
“Grab more weed drugs”
Too many levels,
A: “weed drugs”
B: the first time she took some they weren’t actually drugs
C: she thinks they’re wearing off anyway
D: again “weed drugs”
“You guys, I am SO HIGH from all this ice cream! I’m gonna fuck a bookshelf!” is basically the level Liz is on right now.
The placebo effect is sometimes terrifying.
Me at the end of a college music festival: “I am SO wasted right now. How many have I had?” At which point I remember that I never actually made it to the front of the bar queue- all I’ve had all night is a single vanilla ice-cream.
I could be off-base here, but I have a suspicion that the most narratively significant aspect of this encounter here, however it ends up going, is going to be the insight it gives Joe into how *Joyce* feels about sex right now (is interested, wants it, is absolutely terrified of it, that both her avoidance of it and her eventual pursuit of it is heavily influenced by her puritanical Christian upbringing in a way that makes it very difficult for her to act on her desires in a healthy way because it’s so inextricably linked her her feelings ABOUT her Christian upbringing, whether while embracing her Christianity or violently rejecting it).
Based on the way he thought about Joyce when he first met, it’s possible he’s actually had sex with someone who was carrying all that emotional baggage before, but if so, I doubt he gave much thought to it beyond how much it factored into his getting laid. He’s grown a loooooooot since then, and some of that growth is directly a result of his emotional attachment to Joyce, and how much he does now find himself caring about her feelings.
Long term I think that insight into her struggle with having sexual desire is a good thing for both of them, and would be a benefit to a romantic relationship. Short term, I have no clue if it’s likely to pose more of a barrier to them getting romantically or sexually involved, if Joyce gets to the point of making a move on him (because this shit is M E S S Y and he can see the potential for harm in sleeping with someone who is in fact quite clearly not 100% comfortable with the idea of having sex), or if it would help, because he has some idea where she’d be coming from. You can be scared and uncomfortable about doing something, and still do it safely, if you have the radical emotional honesty to voice your fears instead of denying that they exist. That said, they’re eighteen, so that might be asking a bit much of both of them.
Setting aside the whole question of whether Liz is overcompensating or pushing herself, I kinda feel like Joe should say ‘no’ mostly because he hasn’t seemed interested in having sex with her at all. If anything, he seems really weirded out by this whole situation.
Actually, I think that’d be a good way for the scene to go. Joe trying to throw up ‘excuses’ for why he can’t have sex with Liz like Sarah told him not to or he doesn’t want her to regret it, only for her to keep arguing back until he finally admits he just isn’t interested in hooking up with her for more personal reasons he’ll have to actually examine for himself.
I mean yeah I think that’d be a great way to explore it.
‘Cause guys aren’t ever supposed to say ‘no.’ We’re always eager, we’re always horny, we always want it right this second. That’s how it is normally, how do you say ‘no’ when you’re most known for being a big horny manly man who spends all his time trying to bone?
Does Joe even know he can say he doesn’t want to have sex? Does he even have the words?
That’s what I was trying to get at earlier with “he doesn’t want to be ‘stereotype Joe’ anymore”. Now’s his chance to prove it to himself.
Well, who is Stereotype Joe to you?
Is it because he slept around? The specific mindless transaction he made sex into? Or how that viewpoint made him think it was cool and smart to make the Do List, and be so unable to be emotionally honest that he became the person who’d make the Do List?
‘Cause Joe being able to admit to himself that he doesn’t want to sleep with someone when offered, that’s not growth in the sense that Joe’s now a good person and ready to marry Joyce*, but it’s growth in how he’s undone one of the longest lasting myths of the toxic masculinity he’s ascribed to, and how he’s got more to do like “maybe I’m not doomed to be like my dad” and “I can actually be Joyce’s friend and not ruin her, I can be emotionally honest with Danny and it’s not weird or unmanly.”
*He is already married to Joyce.
Oh wait, sorry, I think I’ve misunderstood you in both my responses. You’re saying Old Joe wouldn’t bother feeling any discomfort in this situation right? Like, that he’d process the level of discomfort he’s showing these last two strips, but then go “eh who cares boobies.”
Bingo.
I think Old Joe wouldn’t ever consider saying no because he’s uncomfortable since Old Joe couldn’t consider a scenario where he’d be uncomfortable having sex. Like, no matter the circumstance it’d always be a good idea to him.
But in terms of showing that he’s matured his views on sex, being able to question himself when uncomfortable and resolve to say he doesn’t want it to happen would be a big deal to him.
I was processing “discomfort” as “Joe is uncomfortable with how Liz is acting” as opposed to “Joe himself doesn’t want to have sex and that’s weirding him out.”
I think Joe’s thinking “this doesn’t feel right” or “something doesn’t add up here”. He can both be tempted by the prospect of sex with Liz and not go through with it because the situation feels off.
He might be trying to ‘protect’ her from herself, but I think he just doesn’t feel right about it. Just turning her down doesn’t take away her agency, but he would cross that line if he stopped her from engaging some other guy.
Honestly she is an adult, and I find it very disturbing that her older sibling is trying to police her sex life for her. What’s wrong with her wanting to bang Joe for fun?
I mean it’s normal for an older sibling to think it, but yeah they don’t actually have any power.
It’s just kinda folksy and harmless at best.
Nothing really, but this reads to me not like she wants to bang Joe for fun, but more like she wants to bang Joe because that’s what The Seculars do.
It’s still disturbing that Sarah’s trying to police that, but conversely it would not be disturbing if Joe called her out at this moment
I think it ties more into the fact that Liz has a habit of targeting men that her family and friends are interested in, or at least Sarah seemed to believe so due to her past experiences.
Not anything wrong with two adults doing whatever, but if Liz IS doing it to hurt other people’s feelings and just to prove that she can, that’s a different context.
That’s a little weird for sure, but I don’t really see why Joe would need to say no. On the other hand, Joe is having an uncharacteristic crush on Joyce, so he’s not quite himself at this moment.
This could go in any direction, but I suspect Joe’s gonna say no due to somewhat confused reasons.
This is that backlash thing that happens, when someone who has been repressed for a long time is free and they overindulge and do something regrettable.
I can see it worrying Joe that Joyce will eventually try to use him for the same when he has deeper feelings for her, even more so if he learns Joyce already let Liz believe the two of them were hookup buddies.
He was in the room when Joyce was making up those stories.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/saucy/
Oh, I get what you meant now Holly. That may indeed complicate things for Joe. “Is this some weird power game you’re playing”.
I mean, a totally cool and dispassionate Joe would probably just shrug and enjoy the sexual encounter, but he’s having weird and conflicted thoughts right now.
Honestly Joe, this time just climb out of the window and let Dan deal with it. You’ll get better at saying no in time.
Bet ya he’s not gonna boink her. Anyone wanna take this bet?
After crumbling for four panels, in panel 5 my early impressions of Liz disintegrate utterly.
Oh, yeah, definitely a no, Joe. I retract my previous statement.
Honestly if I was a young university student in Joe’s boxers, I would be hard pressed to think of a reason to say no. As long as they are smart about protection, where’s the harm?
Sarah will pull his fingernails out through his ears.
Which would be both hypocritical and criminal, Joe should call the cops.
It’s not like she’s getting a tattoo or having a tooth capped.
Man, I just realized if they DO have sex, Liz is going to be SORELY disappointed that Joe in fact does NOT have hair all the way down to his toes….
Brilliant! 😀
Though she might already know that’s not true, due to his sex tape fame.
If she’s paying attention to his FEET during the sextape then well..
That’s just *kinky*
Joe: “Feet? Really?!”
Liz: “C’mon already, sweep me off of them!”
“one moment”
Joe goes back in there and asks Danny “yo how do i politely tell her i don’t do black girls?”
And you fuckers here in love with the pose she doin? it’s a generic pin up pose, overused in erotic drawings and pictures of a crap tonna cultures, for many, many years now, so, welcome to the normie club.
hey there Willis, you’re gonna want to torch this troll
Nah, chill, i’m a sporadic poster, long time observer.
Just fuckin’ with people here.
Fuckin with people, by being a racist POS.
No one needs that
Yeah. Edgelord’s gonna edge. Blergh.
I mean, it’s working out fine, yalls already angrily jumping to conclusions about what i am within my first comment!
The first part is racist. The second part is just rude.
Racist and contradicted by established canon.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/harness/
Danny whos literally a Black girl He thinks is hot
…Danny’s a black girl?
Yep, danny’s a black girl.
C’MON JOE I BELIEVE IN YOU DON’T FUCK THIS UP
Ohhh okay so she’s like. a week or two ahead of joyce, at most. Gluck joe.
not wanting to be crass… but
I DID IT
I MADE IT TO THE END OF THE COMMENTS
I’ve been trying to crawl through this shit like all day, there were already over 300 before 8 am what the fuck
Hey some of us have very strong opinions on whether fictional characters should theoretically bone.
Rule #1 of a heated DoA comments section: When you finish reading them and refresh the page, at least four more comments will show up.
Rule #2: You have to find the new ones and read them, too.
I’m just commenting to invalidate Zee’s comment, even if only for a short period of time. sorry fam.
She just made obvious her desperation… and that might be a reason Joe might not be as comfy now…
Wait, is Liz just doing a Brave New World playthrough?