“I KNOW ABOUT THE BAD PLACE HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN A SYSTEM THAT SENDS YOU TO THE BAD PLACE”
idk, thing is Whatever will exist whether you want it to or not, so as long as we can’t prove what the Whatever is or do anything about it other than what you think you ought to be doing, if you want to believe the Whatever is good, I say more power to ya
Well, it’s the first good argument of Joyce in this conversation. If she had frased it like an honest question, rather than shouting it to her faaaaace, that dialog could have gone in a complettely different way.
How is Becky not the one loosing faith. She’s the one with the hatrick of bad things in religios teachings, plus that role model of fundamentalistic thinking as a father. How can Becky keep her faith and Joyce don’t. That is the question Joyce should have asked – not shouted.
Joyce has had a lot more exposure to different ways of thinking, and overall seems a fair bit more susceptible to being influenced by others. Give it time, Becky should be coming around as well.
Why?
Becky has already changed her views dramatically, because those parts weren’t important to her. She’s dropping all the anti-science nonsense as fast as she can identify it with Dina’s help. She’s dropped most of the toxic controlling stuff from her religious ideas – with the exception of her premarital sex hangup.
Why should more exposure to different ways of thinking make her lose faith? She’s been able to change her thinking without losing faith, unlike Joyce who’s faith was too brittle to change without breaking.
I keep coming back to that dialogue between Joyce and Becky where Becky said “but Joyce, evolution doesn’t contradict anything important” and Joyce was like “ORIGINAL SIN!!!!!!”
Joyce’s faith was always very sin-centered. She was very into denying herself and submitting and guilt. Becky’s faith was not really like that. So Joyce couldn’t reconcile her faith with her changing world view, with her admission that maybe feeling proud of yourself and having wishes and dreams is ok. Joyce literally believed in “all the good we do is trouigh god, nothing we do is our own accomplishments”! She NEEDS to let go of her faith to get rid of her very harmful beliefs.
Tbh Becky has a much less abusive relationship with her faith. Her father was abusive, but she never internalized his abuse the way Joyce did. So Becky can believe in a good and caring God, who loves her and doesn’t want her to go to hell. Although she still believes sex is sinful, she doesn’t believe her desire is sinful, just the act itself. Totally different situation.
So basically Joyce has to learn that not everyone is like her, and Becky has to accept that Joyce is going through a rough transformation and that she is actually angry at her past self more than anyone else. They both just need to be able to communicate… Which they are terrible at. Let’s see how this goes.
I think it’s because Becky’s family is dead that she isn’t letting go of her faith. For Joyce, letting go of her faith meant finally fully accepting her friends and sexual self, and reconciling the contradictions between her faith and her reality. For Becky, however, in deciding to be out and fully herself she had to, ironically, give up a lot of who she was: her family, her home, her security, and her community. Her faith is the last thing she can keep.
Oh no, Becky’s definitely going to bring this up to Dina.
Dina’s probably going to have some thoughtful but analytical lines that run counter to Becky’s faith, like “that makes sense given what she has been through” or “so you are saying she has finally seen reason”, which will go over well.
Oh no. It’s already been one week of feeling slightly apprehensive about reading the comic for the first time in the morning, how long will the knife get twisted?
They’ve been together awhile. If they hadn’t settled into some kind of understanding regarding the atheism/christian thing I’d be surprised.
Dina has been working on learning how to comfort people for awhile. So while it may go there eventually, hopefully she can give Becky the comfort she needs first so Becky can be in a place to hear it.
My guess is rather that they never spoke about it. Like how Dina’s asexuality didn’t come up until it became a problem for Becky. Dina would wait for Becky to bring up the subject, and Becky wouldn’t until it becomes a problem for her.
Nah, they already spoke about it this semester, even – part of their cute talk on meeting up after winter break was Dina saying “I regret to inform you that God does not exist” and Becky saying “You’re proof that he does”. They can disagree safely about it for the exact reason Becky said yesterday – Dina doesn’t mock her beliefs.
For some reason I can’t reply to A Red Balloon’s comment – Dinah already dispelled the beliefs in question here. Becky doesn’t believe the Earth is 6000 years old, or that there’s a sky-sea, or that Parasaurolophus breathed fire like bombardier beetles.
That’s my take on it too. Dina is concerned about science and particularly about dinosaurs. As long as Becky’s beliefs about God don’t get in the way of a correct up to date understanding of dinosaurs, they’re of no concern to Dina.
Insofar as Becky’s primary coping mechanism seems to be avoidance, I’m pretty sure they haven’t had such a conversation. Her reaction to Joyce’s little faux pas suggests that as well.
I can see her saying the former but not the latter. Possibly a version of the latter that is more respectful of both Becky’s faith and Becky’s emotional state- I doubt she’ll need to clarify to Dina that she’s upset and Dina has actually shown better awareness of when to be supportive first and express opinions second than a great many neurotypical people.
I hope the Bio Class Buddies can continue their burgeoning mutual acquaintance of sex talk that would be awkward if it involved any other characters despite the divorce.
Not raining spiders, but my wife got to experience a swarm of freshly hatched water beetles flying overhead and deciding our hot tub was a good place to land. She was NOT impressed, even less so when my son and I laughed at her reaction.
One chapter = one in-universe day and one book = one IRL year, and in the last nine years there’s been only one book with more than the standard four-chapters-per-year (something that was so unusual Willis mentioned it on Twitter months and months in advance). If Becky and Joyce have healed their relationship by the end of this book roughly mid-2022, I’ll be rather surprised.
“My love for you and recent experiences helped me realize I needed to cast off the cult programming I’d been raised with, and I can’t understand why you don’t seem to want to do that too after everything you’ve been through,” would have been another way of putting it. Not a perfect translation, but it’s off the cuff.
Seriously, stop and think about this. Isn’t it just amazing how many religious folks end up in their parent’s religion? Failing that, in the religion of their town/state/country?
Are you seriously going to say that people’s religion isn’t primarily determined by whatever they’re exposed to from the time they’re young?
that’s a bit of an oversimplification– what makes a cult a cult is the *power structure*, not the core beliefs. There are a lot of kids who’re forced into authoritarian and amazingly shitty organizations because of their parents– there are a lot of *adults* who find religion without parental input and don’t get taken into that whole “we’re saved, everyone else is damned, disobey at your peril” mentality.
Remember: a significant portion of U.S. adults (under a third, IIRC) believe in some kind of god or higher power that’s not defined by Christianity, Islam, Judaism or any other organized religion. You can think the universe was created by some kind of magical entity without needing to let that tell you who to sleep with, or whatever
And yet, modern fundagelicalism is all about power. Even power over people who aren’t members. See for instance, the horrifying abortion law in Texas. See the effort to overturn Obergefell vs. Hodges. On the inside, see the Abuse of Faith scandal in the Southern Baptist Convention. See the scramble for power to abuse church members with lesser power. And when it comes to getting and using power, the SBC is a piker compared to the Roman Catholic Church. If power is your definition of cultism, there aren’t many Christian denominations that aren’t cults.
So she came up with those beliefs on her own separate from those constructs?
Or are you trying to say your point stands because although all of her beliefs are informed by those constructs she has tailored them to make her own pick and choose cult that only she knows the rules to?
Because that is astoundingly bad thinking.
The idea that because you picked and choose willy-nilly on your own feeling which beliefs are good ones out of a religious construct does not remove the influence of those religious constructs. In fact it lets you guard the source of your ideological construction from criticism because “obviously I don’t practice that bad version. I practice the paint by numbers religion that is only available in my head that you have to guess about when you’re going to step on my toes. Directly back to those religious I am supposedly escaping by picking and choosing beliefs from them.
To remove oneself from the influence of an ideological construct you actually have to consider each belief not due to the merit of being a part of the ideological construct that they came from.
And since none of the concepts from the ideological religions truly have founding in evidential merit you could maybe say there’s some lessons in there that are worth something but why do you really want to dig through shit just to pick out the corn.?
And after I dug through a bunch of shit and now harvested a bunch of shit corn that doesn’t mean that I am not still eating shit corn. Just because I pulled those pieces out of a pile of shit and set them to the side does not make them less contaminated by shit.
So maybe don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater on exiting a religion do you actually consider whether or not certain things bring you value but don’t try to claim that you have somehow removed yourself from those ideological constructs by playing your private game of cherry pick.
That’s a lot of words to say “Becky’s stupid for still being a Christian, on top of being a gaslighting abuser.” Which is both idiotic, and not the story Willis is writing.
@BarerMender: Fundamentalism and evangelicalism aren’t some “once you go down that path, you’re that forevermore” bull. Becky isn’t a fundamentalist or an evangelical.
There is a point somewhere where people say religion is absurd, and therefore, you either choose faith or you don’t. What you put behind this faith doesn’t really matter, so all bible is true or noodle god, it’s the same.
That’s why religious people are much more tolerant of people form other religion than atheist, who don’t share this will to leap in the unknown.
So, basically, it’s an argument on where the point is. It appears that Joyce has a more social approach to faith, faith toward people, while Becky has a more internal faith. The first is shaken when someone doesn’t act the part (the good atheist, the bad christian), and while the second can change religion or doxa while keeping faith (I feel like I’m oversimplifying a whole lot of Kierkegaard, St Augustin, Descartes and Pascal).
Still at this point, since what social construct (religion, doxa, church, mentorship) is around the faith doesn’t really matter to the second type to define their faith, it also means they can follow any contradictory path or invent it.
The problem is here that Becky as well as Joyce continue to use the word “christian” as an equivalent of an evangelist-constructed definition of faith. For example, neither of the two is now considering going theravada buddhist, or rastafarian, or isese, and not even episcopalian or mormon.
Their cultural background still drives a good part of what their faith or lack of faith encompass as social structure, and even more, it also is reflected as a negative in what they want their future beliefs and action to be.
So, to summarize, I think both sides here are wrong (usually I try to demonstrate both sides are right, but not today, it’s friday).
You could say that about a lot of things people learn when they’re young. We’re social animals and culture sticks, even in subconscious ways, for our whole lives. Even people who spend our entire lives trying to cast off the vast majority of it have troubles and usually don’t get around to some aspect of it.
Meanwhile, “cult” has an actual definition, and it’s not that. Both Joyce and Becky are survivors of religious abuse and familial emotional abuse, which is a huge thing, but how they each choose to deal with that is up to them.
From Oxford: >Cult: A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
>Cult: A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister
>Cult: A misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
Hmm. No, I’m going to say I’m pretty okay with “Cult” in this context.
And yes, you can say that about many things we learn young. That’s… kinda the point I was making. That’s the easiest time to get people to accept things as truth – whether or not it reflects objective reality.
Yes, I am aware that the word is used loosely and out of context from how people who study and interact with cult behavior use it. Your argument seems to be that because she hasn’t completely abandoned religion, she’s not even trying to reject any of the things she was taught, including the harmful ones. My point is that while she may be still struggling with some things (like the premarital sex bit, which as people have pointed out is probably masking unrelated feelings), it’s extremely reductive to suggest someone actively moving away from beliefs that reject them personally and seeking out science is refusing to “reject programming”.
“In a cult, there’s a person at the top who knows it’s a scam. In a religion, that person is dead.”
It’s a meme, but it really does reflect the only fundamental difference between a cult and a religion – whether the people who benefit financially from it actually believe the bullshit it’s shoveling out.
@Wraithy2773 Da fuck you say?
Modern English is a beautiful hot mess of a language!
Due to it being around four languages squashed haphazardly together, it is one of the most flexible languages in the world.
(says the English teacher/scholar)
(and just in case it’s not clear, the hot start is meant as a joke – you are welcome to think what you like about the English language, even if you are obviously wrong)
(in case that wasn’t obviously a joke… insert infinite loop)
Indeed, it’s greatest abhorrence is in fact it’s mightiest strength, that because English is such an incomprehensible mess of contradictory rules and nonsense spellings and pronunciations, it has in fact required to be as flexible as humanly possible!
Being sincere, I find English to be a perfectly fine language, but I’ve also started learning Korean recently, and boy howdy is that language so much nicer when it comes to knowing how to pronounce its writing system…
@Wraithy2773 In fairness, a lot of the contradictory rules are contradictory because they’re not the actual rules.
Like, the common “ghoti” is pronounced “fish” thing is bullshit, because you have to ignore all the rules like “when gh comes at the beginning, it’s pronounced as a G” etc. in order to make that true. We pronounce “ghoti” instinctively as “gotee” because we instinctively know those rules, but we have to ignore them to make it wrong.
Also, Hangul is designed in a way that English simply isn’t. Like, it was literally invented at court and then adoption was pushed by the state. Compare with English, whose alphabet has such a ridiculous lineage that the letter Y is called “the Greek i” by French and a bunch of other languages because it was so tacked on and some Roman dude was probably responsible for nuking some random letters because he didn’t like them.
Yup, King Sejong The Great was pretty badass. Going “Holy shit this written language we’re using is pure trash, guess we better just invent a new one that’s easy to read and write and pronounce” is one of the most impressive ways to earn a title like “The Great”.
I mean, winning wars, that’s impressive, sure, but inventing a written language is like ten tiers above that!
As I understand it that’s kind of just how humans work. We’re behavioural mimics, we pick up on what other people around us do and if it seems to be working we copy them. It’s a really useful survival mechanism and it’s a huge part of the reason we thrived.
I find the, “People follow the religion of their parents so they’re indoctrinated” misses the somewhat easier, “People follow the religion of their parents because they get something out of it.” The idea they must seek something true out of scientific curiosity is an academic’s view versus the idea they are satisfied with some essential factor about it.
I think you’re missing the point. Obviously they get something out of it. They fill a need, either a social need, or a need for meaning, or something else. We know that, it’s not in question.
The question, the problem, the frustrating bit? The part that makes the words “Programmed” and “Indoctrinated” show up? It’s just how dead convinced people are that their religious path has some objective meaning beyond those internal filled needs. Even though it’s largely an accident of geography, even though there’s a billion people with opposed views and just as much conviction.
And if you’re saying that we should just quietly let people be wrong, well. That’d be easier if they didn’t set policy.
There’s also another possibility. That religion actually has fundamental truths and importance to growth that most religions possess some measure of. Which is the exact opposite of your position. If you believe religion is valueless you will see it as an accident of geography and not truth being truth (“To quote Enemy Mine”).
If religion wasn’t an accident of time and geography, you’d see older defunct religions popping up all over the place, inspired by the same thing as the original believers.
Yet we don’t see that. We see religions with little staying power rising and falling through history while the stickiest religions that play on human insecurities to persist completely independent of the truth of their claims continue to predicably persist. All of these religions, dead and alive, had or have believers just as sincere as whatever pet religion people claim is valuable or true.
Someone was trying to dismiss you elsewhere by saying that you’re not religious so you wouldn’t know. But why would that help? Why would having your own personal stake where you feel like you’re special, that you’ve got it figured out in a way no one else has, mean you’re more objective about this?
I feel like it’s the opposite. Most religious people I hear talking are essentially incapable of legitimately discussing this without their bias towards their personal beliefs crawling in. Their view is one where they are right and their religion is special, fending off the advances of unbelievers. But their religion isn’t special. It’s one of many, many religions, most of which harshly contradict, and all of them have equal claim to the truth based on faith. All of which have to fend off challenges from both areligious people and those of other faiths.
There are cases where a particular religion will speak to someone later in life, sure. However, the vast, vast majority of religious belief rooted in childhood indoctrination to some extent.
You seem to be forgetting about the huge number of more moderate, more casual, and even more secular practitioners of religion. For many religion is community and tradition and culture. It’s not about exactly how old the planet is or being a member of “the correct faith” but the rituals that you grew up with and provide you meaning. It’s the friends and support structure that you are part of.
Also, John Smith, that’s funny because what CT Phillips said made perfect sense to me. Maybe you just are too closed minded to parse the idea that anything other than your beliefs can contain truth.
BTDubs: This is exactly the sort of argument that gets people to say that atheism is just another religion. When you hard-headedly refuse to hear any position but your own. That’s one of the bad parts of organized religion, that lack of flexible thinking. And when atheists adopt that stance, it gives all of atheism a bad name.
NOTE: I don’t believe that. I have met plenty of atheists who are flexible thinkers and who are willing to have open and frank discussions about belief or the lack thereof. There are plenty in this comments section alone.
I’m just saying, when people say it, they’re talking about conversations like this one.
Rose:
Thank you. I’m an atheist, but I get really uncomfortable with the growing zealotry on “my side”.
John Smith:
I’m not trying to accuse you of zealotry, but I do think you’re analysis is pretty one note and I don’t like the logical extension of your reasoning.
IMO, there’s only a couple steps more to go before you’re saying that religious people are irrevocably tainted by their brainwashing and shouldn’t be allowed to partake in the public discourse or even make decisions for themselves until their indoctrination has been treated.
What do you do with “cults”? You break them up, forcibly if necessary and for the good of the cultists. You remove them from their bad influences (otherwise known as friends and family) for their own good. You remove their children from them for the good of the children.
I’m not saying that John Smith believes any of that and I’m aware that I’m pretty close to a strawman, but “cult” is a pretty loaded word to be throwing around. If anybody that bothers to read this DOES believe all of that, then you and I are on opposite sides and don’t think for a second that you represent me just because we share a lack of belief in god. Sorry for the rant.
@Rage
You’re right, that is pretty straw-mannish. I’ve never talked about and certainly don’t want to break up families and prevent the religious from having public discourse.
As far as “Cult” goes, yes it’s loaded and that’s kinda the reason it gets used. Is scientology a cult or a religion? It certainly started as a cult – its originator is an SF author on the record as saying, “If you want to get rich, start a religion!” Despite the absurd beginning, it got that coveted tax-exempt status and a worryingly large following. Give it a couple hundred years and I have no doubt people will be arguing about Scientological literalism in threads like this. Give it even longer and we’ll probably end up with weird Scientology-Christianity fusions. Historically, that’s how religions evolve. Seriously, look into the history of the greek gods, a lot of them (but not all!) are old and the originals looked nothing like what they ended up as.
The big things separating a cult from a religion seem to be time, mainstream acceptance and (typically) the founder being dead. If you’re struggling with the implications of that, and what to do about it… well, welcome to the club.
@Rose
I assume I’m one of the “Hard Headed Atheists” you’re talking about?
@John Smith, the reason “cult” is such a derogatory word is because Christians wanted to be dismissive of other religions.
@eh, whatever, Gardner certainly claimed a lineage from the mists of time and it’s impossible to actually disprove him. The point remains that, yes, people are reviving old religions as systems that speak to them at some fundamental level.
Part of what goes on with “cult” is mixing definitions of the term. Some are much broader, but the broader ones aren’t generally linked to the kinds of cults that give the word the bad reputation.
Then some people use the broader definition where the strict version wouldn’t apply in order to tar those groups by association.
Cult is mostly derogatory these days because of a largely secular movement in the 70s and 80s in response to cults like Jim Jones and other really nasty groups – some extreme versions of Christianity, some not. There’d been earlier usage by more mainstream Christians to target heretical Christian groups, but that didn’t have the same popular culture effect.
I want you to imagine that you get into a time machine and go forward a thousand years and find out that there’s a huge religion based on interpreting Star Wars as literal truth. There’s been Jedi/Sith wars, people argue about why modern force users don’t have the same old magic powers you see in the documentaries (which are recreations several steps removed and only loosely recognizable as the same thing as the originals you saw). George Lucas is hailed as a prophet, and public policy in some counties is based on Star Wars. This includes things like the Jedi order stealing people’s children sometime during the age of 3-6 based on opaque rituals and tests not widely explained to the public, banning of certain emotions because they risk pulling people to the dark side, and research into lasers and spaceflight are banned because lightsabers are holy weapons that shouldn’t be recreated by science and the only reason or culture ended up here was to escape the dangers of FTL travel.
When you point out how ludicrous the whole thing is because it’s based on a bunch of media that’s indistinguishable from fiction, people tell you that they’re ancient stories that people find meaning in, so they must hold some truth and should be given respect. And implicitly, they’re implying that all the suffering caused by this interpretation of a fictional creation as literal truth is justified.
This is about how people are sounding here, and this is the issue with thinking that you have to believe a religion to have reasonable thoughts on religion. I don’t believe most people who sincerely believe a religion can mentally pull themselves out and consider a world where their religion is fiction. And by implication, most tend to elevate anything with the label “religion” above other fandoms surrounding fiction, treating them as special. It’s something even written into many laws, that as soon as something is called a religion, it instantly gets a bunch of legal protections that don’t apply to any comparable non-religious organizations or beliefs.
And I will fully acknowledge that fiction can be powerful and hold incredible meaning. Star Wars, Star Trek, Avatar: TLA, Mass Effect, Fire Emblem, Pokemon, Legend of Zelda, and many many more fictional creations have incredible cultural power and mean a great deal to me personally. Yet we don’t offer a bunch of respect to people who believe these stories are literal history or divine guidance that trumps scientific research and should guide public policy.
If religions only acted as fandoms, few people would have a problem with them. I certainly wouldn’t. But they don’t. They’re treated like fandoms half the time to justify why so many coexist and how believers of different stuff can get along. Then the other half, they’re treated as special vessels of truth that deserve unique protections, are owed special respect, and are elevated above criticism.
Once, I got in a discussion about religion and faith with a stranger in a train, we got a nice and peaceful discussion, but at one time we hit off a wall (called faith): he said, “when you’ll die, and meet the creator, and he/it says you done wrong, what are you going to say” me “I’m going to say, you don’t exist, get out of my coffin”.
I think we got half an hour of discussion just on this point, repeting the same ever and ever.
I couldn’t see behind the wall (god), and he couldn’t see behind the wall (the absence of it).
It’s a bit like trying to imagine a what a sounds smells, you can’t (unless you try some kind of false equivalence).
I would not be more open minded by knowing that G minor smells like goat cheese mixed with the 45th sort of Heinz Ketchup’s bottle cap, nor even more knowledgeable.
And he would not be more tolerant by being able to convey what a music smells.
So in definitive, I will accept that music might smell something for some people, if in return, nothing has to be done or accepted based on the fact music smells.
[If religion wasn’t an accident of time and geography, you’d see older defunct religions popping up all over the place, inspired by the same thing as the original believers.]
We see that all the time. I mean Liz brought up how Christianity is full of stuff similar to older religions. We also get pagan revivals. Hinduism is like 8000 years old.
No, I don’t mean that old religions wouldn’t still exist or wouldn’t change. I mean that ancient religions like the Norse gods, the Greek pantheon, the Aztec gods, etc. would be springing up everywhere, not just in a few small instances. There are so many religions that were extremely dominant within their culture that are mainly remembered in history books and/or viewed as fictional mythology.
The rise, fall, and changing of religions, including small revivals, isn’t consistent with the claimed fundamental truth religion is finding. Instead, it’s consistent with how the rise and fall of cultures work. Or in a more modern microcosm of the same pattern, fandoms. Various fandoms focused on a certain piece of fiction, a style of art, or whatever all rise and fall in popularity. Older fandoms pop up again in small revivals, but tend not to return to the same level of dominance as they once might have had. Despite this, people tend to like the stuff they got into as a kid, most of which was delivered by their parents. And so on. Joyce even made this observation earlier in the comic, though at the time she wrote it off.
Hinduism in what form? 8000 is a guess; depending on what you mean by Hinduism, 6000, 3000, 2500 and even lower numbers of years have some evidence behind them.
Things like the Greek pantheon, the Norse stuff, the Aztec stuff, etc. aren’t accurate representations of what people believed, though. They’re the result of modern reconstructions as best as we can. The most likely reason Zeus fucked everyone, for instance, is because every city-state wanted to claim lineage from the king of the gods to prove how special they were. It wasn’t something they all got together and agreed was true. During the Mycenaean period (i.e., during the time depicted in the Iliad), Poseidon was probably the king of the gods and Hades probably didn’t exist. And that’s without getting into Orphic and Eleusisian Mysteries where Orpheus and Persephone are the main objects of veneration.
So you can’t really extrapolate that they aren’t reviving everywhere all the time from the vague things we know about what they wrote down thousands of years ago. Like, all you’re actually saying is that people aren’t claiming the same things that other people wrote down, and shit, that describes America and the Constitution, too.
POV: You are Joyce. Your parents love you, and they love your siblings, even when they have to punish. They rarely have to punish you. God loves you, and you obey God by obeying your parents. Other people, the Worldly, don’t understand God’s love, and so they sin against God and cause themselves harm in this world and the next. You wish they wouldn’t. When you meet the Worldly, you wish really super hard that they wouldn’t, because you don’t want them to go to hell. Your best friend is gay, but wait! it turns out there are a bunch of loopholes in the Real Literal Scripture that mean she might not be sinning. God still loves her. Her dad loves abuses her so much that he uses potentially-deadly force to try to kidnap her, hurting others in the process, twice. Your parents don’t love each other, and they’ve been fighting in secret this whole time. You don’t feel God when you pray. It turns out, obedience isn’t the same as love, and it can get you killed, and your mom really, really does not agree. The earth is billions of years old. Your parents and your church can’t be trusted. God didn’t love you because God doesn’t exist.
POV: You are Becky, young and realizing slowly that your feelings for your best friend from homeschool group/church are A Sin. But you prayed about it, and you feel better. God loves you. Your dad is a jerk a lot, and has rules that feel arbitrary, and it seems like your mom always goes along with him, which makes you feel weird. But you prayed about it; everything’s okay, God loves you. Your mom is dead, and you don’t understand why she did this, why she left you, but you know she’s in heaven now; everything is going to be okay. Your dad tried to kidnap you and aimed a gun in the air to force your friend to let you go, but God loves you, and God is bigger than your dad, and everything’s going to be okay. You feel God when you pray; you feel loved. Your parents are dead, but God loves you, and everyone, and you’ll see them in Heaven.
I’ve just been thinking about this a lot? Because once this fight started, this moment felt inevitable, but it still sucks a lot. These kids have both been through so damn much.
Becky’s attitude towards her faith seems to be “God is love and loves me and that’s the core of my faith and almost everything else I’m open to learning about”, which is not only not what the cult she was raised in is about, it is antithetical to it. Literally the only things her faith and the cult she was raised in have in common is a belief in a particular god (albeit with radically different views on what that god is like) and they both call themselves Christian. So many of her beliefs would not have been acceptable in her childhood environment- and control was key.
While that may be true, it might be hard for Joyce to see it that way if she links everything to do with religion to the cult right now. Becky might be able to realize the difference (hard to tell what her inner mindset is, or if she just doesn’t want to lose anything else), but it is very possible with Joyce that it is too closely linked to the trauma right now. This could especially be the case if something is going on with Joyce’s mom and family drama still. Religion might be reminding Joyce of her mom’s and her church’s reaction, making it more directly linked than with Becky, who might be able to separate it more into just being her father.
Per what I’ve heard from Patreon, Becky apparently started attending Sierra’s church pre-timeskip. Sierra herself is openly bisexual and polyamorous, so that’s a definite tick against it being a fundie group like Joyce and Becky were raised in.
In Becky’s case… yeah, her religion really is her cult programming, or what’s left of it. Its her decision which parts she does and doesn’t want to cast off, but its pretty undeniable the cult put it there to begin with.
But that’s a problem for a lot of people – do you reject wholesale that which you gained from a known corrupted source, or do you sift through it to find out if any of what they gave you has actual value and wasn’t just substanceless lies, is there anything you can still use?
The danger of the first path is that you absolutely will throw away things that would have been valuable to you – and a lot of what you should have thrown away will still linger, hidden, unexamined. The danger of the second is that you might end up embracing things that seem appealing but really were just created to fuck you over, trapping you in a less shitty but still pretty shitty outcome, especially if you are the sort of person to cling to things from your past for stability because you’ll be picking the bits that offer the most comfort over everything else.
Also, Beckie would need to be willing to actually listen to Joyce on the subject. They both need to do a lot of reflection and be very careful in how they approach the subject when they eventually do finally attempt reconciliation. Joyce needs to figure out A, what her position actually is, and B, how to articulate that position. Beckie needs to be willing to accept that Joyce’s beliefs differ from her own and support Joyce in her following her own path. Right now neither party has fulfilled their win conditions (assuming reconciliation is the ultimate goal).
Joyce is willing to listen to Dina and her issues with Dorothy aren’t related to atheism.
But both Dina and Dorothy treat Becky with respect, even if they don’t agree with her beliefs.
Joyce was literally mocking all theists and saying anyone spiritual is an idiot.
I think Becky would actually be a lot more able to support Joyce on her path to atheism than Joyce realizes.
But now Joyce has to be able to support Becky on Becky’s path to faith.
(And seriously Joyce needs to get over herself. You think having a meltdown because you believe the same things as Becky’s girlfriend is gonna go over well?)
“meltdown”? “that feels wrong” is hardly a meltdown. Just a moment of distraction from a sudden realization that she’s now the same as someone she’s always been in conflict with.
But generally, I agree. Joyce seems to be having at least as much trouble accepting that Becky is still religious as Becky is accepting that Joyce isn’t. More so, going just by their explicit words.
Considering context of the situation, Joyce was partly saying what she said because Liz was egging her own and partly because her own bitterness is making her, Joyce, feel like an idiot for ever believing in the first place. She hasn’t gotten to a point yet where she can articulate that properly but that’s my reading of it. I don’t think Joyce is malicious enough to truly belive all belivers are idiots but bitterness can warp your perception of yourself. It’s difficult to admit that when you’re trying to defend yourself from a (rightfully) angry friend though…
It’s weird to me how few people appear willing to view this through what seems the most obvious perspective. Joyce was engaging in bad-faith badmouthing, spurred on by her desire to appear ‘cool’, until she began to get angry; her and Becky’s responses here have not been coolly rational declarations of their stances, but rather two people both feeling rightfully indignant, digging in on stances that would ordinarily be approached in more gentle terms, were it not for the call and response of anger.
Joyce needs to get over herself? I’m sure you mean Becky needs to get over herself. The rant Becky overheard wasn’t about her, it was about Joyce, but Becky made it 100% about her and fuck Joyce. And while she’s getting over things, her treatment of Dorothy has been inexcusable. Fuck Becky.
Hey, Becky. Stop taking a page out of Jennifer’s book. She’s an asshole. If you don’t want to see or speak to Joyce, fine, but you do not get to tell her where to go or what to do.
Meh, I don’t think either one is really being an asshole. Joyce avoided telling her friend about her feelings about religion. Joyce covered it up to avoid hurting her friend or exposing herself. It was exposed and became a much bigger deal than it had to be. It’s an obvious character flaw, but I’ve never seen her do anything from actual malice.
Joyce is stupid. Joyce doesn’t learn quickly enough from her mistakes, so she keeps repeating them. Joyce causes her own problems. I relate.
Nah, friends have conflicts, too. Being friends with people ain’t about it always being endless sunshine and buckets. Conflicts happen and they aren’t always pleasant at first.
They were both talking past each other because they’ve got nearly 20 years of religious indoctrination poisoning the both of them, but only Becky’s very last line strays into “You’re now going to inconvenience yourself for me.”
They could both be handling this a little better and honestly I have to wonder if this is what drives them apart. Still Joyce has yet to properly apologize so the ball is still in her court.
I think Joyce is going to go back in, have a talk with her friends, realize how she should have handled it, then go try to talk to Becky by staying outside of the classroom because she is to scared to go in, might try to send somebody else to talk instead of her before going to talk herself. Becky might brush her off for a bit before Dina talks her down (they might have a tiny fight themselves as Becky might think Dina is taking a side). Eventually after a bit of agonizing over it they will both agree to talk about whats going on and try to fix their friendship or at the very least not hate each other.
Ooh, that’s a hard prediction. Joyce shies away from confrontation and doing a repeat doesn’t feel right for her. On the other hand, she feels bad enough about skipping class.
I think she’ll ask Joe, and Joe will tell her to skip.
Also, it’s still pretty early in the term, add/drop is a thing. If I were Joyce, I’d honestly be thinking ‘there are other science classes that will fill STEM requirements, or a different section of this one.
I’d say that it’s not “they could have been handling this a bit better,” but rather that “it’s possible that they could have handled this a bit better but it would be unrealistic for them to do so given how new Joyce’s atheismis to them” (Joyce: a few days or weeks, and Becky:a few minutes).
So i’m pleased with how this is being depicted. Nothing takes you out of a story quite like breaking the willing suspension of disbelief.
She’s been losing her faith for awhile now certainly, but she’s still struggling to come to terms with it. Her realization that she believes the same things as Dina last strip was new, for example. Or her only really letting go of creationism in a strip with Joe a little while back.
The letting go of creationism with Joe, and I will not let this go, was also yesterday in-strip time, same as Bonnie’s birthday party. Joyce realized she was an atheist enough to realize she didn’t have to believe in creationism yesterday. Small wonder she didn’t feel ready to talk to Becky about it at any point before Bonnie’s birthday, and didn’t want to bring it up then.
It’s one of those no win situations. It’s perfectly reasonable she wasn’t ready to talk about it and she’s under no obligation to. It’s also perfectly reasonable for Becky to be hurt that she didn’t, even without today’s mockery.
Eeeyup. And Joyce did in fact have good reasons for not bringing it up to Becky as she was realizing it – this misreading of what faith means to each other’s been going on the whole dang time, and Becky’s always gotten a little miffed that Joyce needs to reconcile the Bible being literally true with gay people being okay (totally understandable) or that she needs Biblical literalism to be the case because if original sin’s not real, then how can a loving God exist? (Which is the moment I hope Becky comes back to after the initial anger and shock and hurt start to subside.)
But all of that meant she was really prime to get wound up with Liz, and she genuinely hadn’t started thinking about what she thinks of religion as a whole until then… so she fell into the Insufferable Newbie Atheist Trap Card. I hope Dorothy or Sarah challenges that one once she’s had some time to cry about it. (I’m imagining Sarah: ‘Joyce, I KNOW you don’t think all atheists are smarter than religious people.’ ‘Maybe I do! How can you be so sure?’ ‘Walky’s an atheist, too.’ *Beat panel* ‘Okay, we’ve fixed her from THAT logical fallacy, now let’s talk about what you DO believe now.’)
I legit don’t know how Joyce could’ve done this conversation worse! I am excited to see how Becky gets on without “Joyce’s best friend” being one of her defining character traits. Maybe this will end that dumb fake rivalry with Dorothy too
I know SalxDanny is safe because I want Lucy to be happy with Walky and I know he’s bound to fuck that up. So the Willis Giveth, the Willis taketh away
I don’t know if she did that bad. I mean bad timing for how Becky found out, but at this point she’s just being honest how she feels so that’s not wrong in of itself. Her expectations of Becky to see things similarly is wrong but the way she expressed was her not understanding which is how she feels.
Becky on the other hand is perfectly fine being upset with what she’s seen earlier. What she’s missing would maybe be resolved in a longer conversation. Giving her the benefit of doubt in the chaotic situation she doesn’t know that all this is Joyce struggling with the losing of her faith.
One way in which Joyce could have handled it better is by being less confrontational in how she was presenting her position. Like, she could have at least tried to de-escalate Becky’s anger long enough to have an actual conversation instead of a fight, but instead she chose to further escalate the conflict with basically every thing she said after her initial attempt at apology was rebuffed.
Do you honestly believe that two random teenagers are likely going ng to have any understanding of de-escalation tactics, and experience with applying those said tactics, in the midst of rising emotions? It’s fairly unusual to respond to anger with anything *except* for anger, which is exactly why, after a half-hearted attempt (two or three actually) at apology failed, Joyce did the rather common switch to getting defensive.
Absolutely not. There is one ghost Mike in Amber’s head who is not real. Then there is the real ghost Mike who is possessing the real Jennifer and the real Booster back and forth. Then there is the live Mike who is in witness protection and sometimes replaces Jennifer or Booster, whichever is not currently possessed by ghost Mike.
So there are three Mike’s in all. We call this the doctrine of the trinity.
Mike last came for Blaine’s mom years ago (in terms of when that strip was published), but some adherents still believe he will return to pass out nickels to a myriad of moms once more.
Well, there isn’t much for me to say here other than I think they’re having two separate conversations and have been talking past each other for a long time in some ways.
and here I was really hoping this would be when they’d both figure that out and start talking about that, but I guess this isn’t the time after all. Still too raw.
I don’t think that’s at all what she means. Her first word balloon in panel 1 is all setup for her question in the second balloon.
Joyce is saying that not being able to reconcile what she’d been raised to believe with what in her heart she knew was right when it came to Becky being a lesbian is what first made her doubt her faith, and that she doesn’t understand how it didn’t have that same effect on Becky’s faith as well
She doesn’t get why Becky seemed to adapt he faith so easily, while her own faith shattered violently and painfully just trying to reconcile it with being a good person
Yeah, this exactly. Becky and Joyce were never on the same page about what they were getting out of it, and they’re learning that in a pretty harsh way.
That’s not what she said at all. She said her love for Becky caused her to realize the cognitive dissonance continuing to believe would cause. The love for her friend outweighed the belief that being gay was inherently immoral and evil.
That bit isn’t an insult. The “why aren’t you letting go” bit, maybe, but the bit about Becky being the catalyst for Joyce losing faith, that’s basically just true.
Becky: “Hey Joyce, I’m not judging you for being an atheist. Stop being an asshole!”
Joyce: “Becky, stop judging me for being an atheist! How are you even still a christian, they hate you you know!”
I’ve loved this past week of strips. Many thinks to the author! This fight was just the right amount of horrible.
I mean they both are wrong here, Becky in her defense did walk in on that conversation.
As for Joyce she’s saying she doesn’t understand that’s not the same as judging.
It’s harsh, but like, the literal entire history of the comic is almost entirely about how Joyce’s faith was about superiority (and dealing with getting over that). She spent a large amount of time acting like she was better than people because of her religion, then slowly learned to not be as outwardly judgy.
Then, after her crisis of faith, she easily fell back onto that crutch as a way to reconcile *not* being religious. It’s not to say that I think joyce is an inherently awful person or anything, but saying her relationship to faith is entertwined with superiority over people who don’t share it is very easy to prove.
It wasn’t about “I am better than you”, it is “well of course the sky sea is real, the bible says so.”
Like, Mary thinks she’s better than everyone, because she has faith in God and then that faith is something she can decide to follow at her leisure while still proclaiming herself as the objectively correct avatar of divine vengeance. Mary believes so strongly in her own righteousness that she has found the true interpretation of God’s words and can accept and dismiss them however she wants, and unlike Becky who does so because it’s unimportant and factual evidence contradicts it, as in Becky herself is kind of the least involved in what part of the bible is wrong, Mary’s faith in her interpretation is one she’s decided is objectively correct and that she was able to decide it is the important part here.
Joyce didn’t have faith, she had rules. God told her that fire-breathing dinosaurs were hunted to extinction in the early days of this 6000 years old Earth and she accepted that the way I accept that I need to breathe air and drink water to not die.
She believed in facts and then found out they were actually not facts the way one would react if numbers stopped working.
You forgot the part where Becky took a general statement personally and forced Joyce up against a metaphorical wall to get her to agree it was personal or go back on her new beliefs. Becky is allowed to be hurt, but that’s extremely manipulative and far worse than stating your feelings on a particular belief in a rude fashion.
You also missed the gaslighting from Becky where she blames Joyce for believing the bad parts of their upbringing instead of blaming the beliefs and their source.
Uh no, actually insulting everyone who believes X insults Becky who also believes X.
And don’t forget that you are working on a false assumption about religion that erases a fuckton of minority religions and reconstructionism just because you can’t stand the idea of the divine being real.
How does “Do you really think I’m an idiot because I believe in God?” force “Joyce up against a metaphorical wall to get her to agree it was personal or go back on her new beliefs”?
Unless of course her new belief includes Becky being an idiot.
You can think and express feelings about a belief without having personal beef with every single person who believes it. And no, I don’t think you have to carefully phrase every single negative thing you ever say about said belief to make sure the hypothetical believer is never brought into it. Especially not when you’re in private among friends who share those feelings, venting about them.
If I got mad at every single person who ever said something mean in private about vegans, atheists, leftists, or any other group I’m in, and confronted those people to make them declare those things directly at me personally, I would have no friends. If you honestly believe every single friend you have doesn’t think a single negative thing about you or any of your beliefs, you must be a very privileged person.
I am actually begging you to explain how Becky has tried to make Joyce question her own perception of reality bc if you can’t I’m taking the word “gaslighting” away from you
Becky’s not making Joyce question her faith so much as assigning values to her like “you just thought you were better than everyone else, so that’s why losing your faith is your fault” that Joyce doesn’t believe in the slightest, but Becky sure thinks so.
She’s framing Joyce’s crisis of faith as being rooted in personal character flaws where Joyce is the only one at fault when Joyce doesn’t see it that way at all. When Joyce states clearly why she’s lost her faith: because she cares for other people, Becky runs off because it’s so contrary to the version that Becky is throwing in her face. Becky is saying “No, you don’t actually care about people. You were just foolish for believing the wrong parts were important and judgmental so of course you judged people based on religion. Those are *your* fault, not your faith’s fault.”
How is that not an attempt to undermine Joyce’s perception of religion and her new beliefs? Go look up the signs of gaslighting. Many of them describe Joyce’s behaviors since the time skip to a T. Doubting her feelings and reality, questioning her judgements, feeling vulnerable, feeling alone, feeling confused, wondering what’s wrong with her, etc.
I suppose you can argue these aren’t all rooted in Becky’s behavior alone, but Becky is participating by shifting blame, minimizing Joyce’s feelings, and shifting the focus of the conversation away from points Joyce makes. And you can’t argue that Joyce hasn’t been on the receiving end of every aspect of gaslighting from her religious upbringing as a whole.
If this is your first time you’ve seen parallels drawn between religious indoctrination and abusive relationships, then I’d suggest looking it up sometime. The parallels run alarmingly deep.
Is this is really the first time you’ve heard of religious gaslighting or seen comparisons between religious indoctrination and abusive relationships in general?
Because I’m not using the term lightly. People just think I am because they assume I have the same feelings about religion as they do, so I can’t possibly be suggesting that religion can lead to such terrible behavior, right?
It can and does. Many ex-theists have stories and experiences that aren’t that different from survivors of domestic abuse. This isn’t making light of domestic abuse. It’s pointing out just how bad religion can be and often is.
And in so doing you’re revealing that you’re not considering these particular characters and their actions, but just using them as props for the evils of religion. Becky is gaslighting Joyce because that’s what religious people do, not because of any thing specific Becky has done.
Of course religion can lead to terrible behavior. Of course many ex-theists have abuse stories and experiences. As do, for example, Joyce and Becky. I doubt any regular readers of this comic are unaware that religion can lead to terrible things. If so they have bigger complaints with the comic than this week’s strips.
Some ex-theists though generalize their bad experiences and extend them to all religion.
I’m pretty sure Becky is judging Joyce for losing her faith when Becky didn’t lose hers despite the troubles they’ve both been through in the past few months.
Not at all. If Becky is judging Joyce it’s for acting like a jerk by making derogatory statements about all religious people – which includes but is not limited to Becky. The presence or absence Joyce’s faith was not a target of criticism
Thogh I’ll grant Joyce’s past faith was criticized for focusing on seeing oneself as superior to others which is both an element not inherent in Becky’s faith and an element fully deserving of criticism whenever it appears.
Honestly? This is fine. It hits me right in the gut and makes me wanna hug them both, but ultimately I think they’re gonna be okay.
I’ve seen the questions everybody’s been heatedly arguing about in the comments for this arc:
“Whose fault is this? Which of them is wrong? Which of them won here?”
But this isn’t a debate or a contest, and they’re not a pair of frictionless spheres in a moral vacuum. They’re best friends who care deeply about each other who’ve gotten into a fight that’s left them both of them feeling hurt and angry
Joyce hiding that she’d become an atheist from Becky was totally understandable, and she had every right to do so. Best friends or not, if she wasn’t ready to share that with her, she wasn’t ready. Unfortunately, due to the big part that Christianity had always played in their relationship (which is a strong motive to worry about telling her), putting off telling Becky meant faking it in the meantime was unavoidable. Joyce’s venting was also totally understandable for someone who’d bought into her oppressive fundamentalist upbringing and suffered because of it. She’d wisely tried to avoid saying that kinda stuff around people who’d be upset by it. She never would have wanted Becky to hear those things. I also don’t think she’s mad that Becky still believes, so much as she just can’t understand how. She doesn’t understand that while they shared the same religious upbringing, Becky didn’t fully buy into it the way Joyce did, so she doesn’t understand how going through (roughly) the same series of traumatic events strengthened Becky’s faith, while breaking her own. I wouldn’t be surprised if she resents Becky for that without realizing it, given how important her faith had been to her for her whole life. The inability to see why they reacted so differently would not doubt be frustrating at the very least.
And on Becky’s part, no seeking Joyce out after hearing she’d skipped class wasn’t stalking. It wasn’t even intrusive. It was extremely normal behavior for friends in college, especially where one has no clue the other is specifically avoiding her. She hadn’t meant to pry, she just wanted to see why Joyce was skipping class suddenly, which is very out of character for her and totally merits her friends checking up on her. And no, Joyce wasn’t mocking Becky herself specifically, but when you suddenly find your best friend mocking the religion you – up until that very moment – thought you both shared? Yeah it’s gonna feel personal. Especially if you – like Becky very clearly is – are particularly sensitive to rejection. Your mind is absolutely gonna leap to “she’s been hiding that she’s not Christian anymore from me because the insulting things she’s saying are also how she sees ME now and she doesn’t even respect me enough to say it to my face.” It’s not at all how Joyce feels about her, but you can see how that specific fear/hurt got stuck in Becky’s mind
So, the problem here isn’t at all that one of them is bad and wrong, or even badder and wronger than the other. The problem is that they’re hurting and angry, and neither of them really understands the other’s reasons for feeling that way. That’s why the last couple strips have felt to many like the two of them are having totally separate arguments. They’re technically are having the same argument, but they each don’t (yet, hopefully) really understand how the what the other one is saying ties into the matter at hand.
If Becky hadn’t overheard those things, Joyce probably would’ve eventually revealed to Becky she’d stopped believing entirely, and a much calmer and less painful version of this conversation could’ve happened. But she did, and from there onward, this was never going to be resolved in one single conversation/fight.
But, despite that, I would actually say this has gone as well as it could. They’re both still mad and still don’t really get the other’s reasons why, but despite the anger and the yelling, throughout the argument they’ve both finally been pretty open and honest, even if it doesn’t seem like that helped, and they’ve both managed to avoid saying anything deliberately hurtful to make things worse.
The heart of the matter now lies exposed. Some time apart will help them cool off, and hopefully they’ll take some time to reflect on what the other said, and talk things out with their other friends, and in time come to understand each other again and be able to forgive each other. Probably there will be more drama or even fighting before they get there. Maybe their friendship will come out of this changed in some way, but I think they’ll get there
Now that was a good read. I wish I had something more coherent to say or a better way to phrase but I’m not good with words. Just… great write-up.
I said this yesterday: Even though both of them are saying and doing the wrong things, neither of them is Truly Wrong. They’re just kids who are in pain.
I think the key is gonna be Joyce admitting she actually doesn’t think Becky is stupid for believing. She’s just defensive about it here because she feels like Becky’s attacking her atheism.
Truth is, I think she thinks *she’s* stupid for having believed in the past. After all, Becky feels God when SHE prays. But Joyce didn’t. What kept her tethered to Christianity wasn’t a close relationship with God, it was the ideological and theological aspect. Here she is arguing with Becky about evolution happening. Becky says “it doesn’t contradict nothin’ important”, and Joyce immediately goes down a tangent of logic that completely unravels her faith. If X, then Y, then Z. When that broke down for her, there was nothing left underneath.
I think that’s what she feels is the difference between Becky and herself. It’s one thing if you have a strong spiritual connection to your beliefs, but Joyce’s belief was kept afloat by the belief that the Bible was 100% right 100% of the time. Considering how impossible that would be for any text and how a lot of the book doesn’t even make sense under its own logic, it’s not surprising she feels stupid.
I was thinking that too. A lot of this is probably more directed at herself than Becky. Like the comment about Becky’s “jackass father” could also be referencing Joyce’s mother indirectly.
Yeah I mean that whole conversation Becky walked in on was Joyce calling herself dumb for having believed, Becky wasn’t even remotely being targeted. Definitely crossover of Becky’s dad and her Mom and church group as well they essentially enabled him to do everything he did.
Also, the stuff Joyce was saying was heavily influenced by her need to “fit in” with a person she considers to be “cool.” Like, the entire time she was hanging with Sarah’s sister she was deliberately molding her behavior and thus was taking things to extremes, like with the excessive swearing. She saw the “cool kid I wanna emulate” bashing Christians, felt validated in her frustrations, jumped on the bandwagon, got approval from said “cool kid,” and continued to escalate to seek further validation and approval.
That said, I agree that her statements had more to do with her self-view than Becky, but I’d say that was clearly not all it was. She wanted the “cool kid” to like her and thus allowed her behavior to be influenced significantly.
Oooh! Yes, this, all the way this. Neither of them is hostilely trying to hurt the other, but in real life our rough edges sometimes hurt our friends because we’re human.
Look, you can’t do this. This comment section is all about picking one character and supporting them completely in any given conflict, mostly by trashing the other. Get on board. Pick a side and tear the other one down, dammit.
Seriously though, very good summary. Both of them have very understandable motivations, even when they’re screwing up.
It’s just one of those days, when ya don’t wanna hang up. Everything is fucked, cell reception sucks. Ya don’t really know why, but ya wanna justify blowin’ someone’s cell up.
Can’t be a stabbing yet, it’s broad daylight. The BIG fights are for nighttime, or sometimes in basements. It’s car chases that occur in the middle of the day.
The past week I’ve been wringing my hands going “Oh jeez, oh jeez,” because this entire situation is so fraught and that cut straight through it all. For the absolute cluster this argument was, Joyce still didn’t walk away from it as poorly as Becky did.
Its no surprise really, Joyce is the type of person that’ll go against her parents, faith, church, everything she holds dear for Becky hell she’ll even go hungry to feed her
I’m not sure I can articulate it. I feel that Joyce faced down her internal screaming to say ‘no, Becky is more important than this to me’ and didn’t run away. Becky, on the other hand, seems fine with dropping Joyce like a hot potato after a single outburst and hurt feelings thereafter.
Ultimately, I don’t doubt they’ll reconcile. But Joyce was there for Becky when Becky’s world crumbled, every step that Becky let her see and some Becky didn’t, and now that Joyce’s world can be seen to be crumbling, Becky bails on the first possible step. She might un-bail, I don’t know. But I doubt it.
I mean, there is a *very* big difference between showing up and asking for/clearly needing help and walking in on what seems (from Becky’s perspective) to be the most important person in her life talking shit about her behind her back. Like, it would be one thing if Joyce had had the opportunity to approach Becky about this stuff the way she eventually would have if this never happened and Becky handled it exactly like this, but she felt justifiably insulted and betrayed by what she walked in on, and then Joyce kinda doubled down on the insults and betrayal (again, from Becky’s perspective, not the most accurate way to describe Joyce’s behavior, but also not an invalid one).
Ah, we’re doing the whole “Becky’s a bad person whose been a TERRIBLE burden on good poor Christian heterosexual Joyce” song and dance again
Just gonna pretend Becky never surrendered to her gun-toting kidnapper dad to protect Joyce, risking her life, safety and freedom in the process. Gonna pretend she never showed up when Blaine kidnapped her friends either. Just so selfish that dang homeless lesbian girl. How dare she not constantly be begging Joyce for forgiveness
I mean, Becky *does* attempt to enforce the roles *she* has assigned to people on them in a very toxic manner. Obviously some people seem to hyper focus on that and ignore her positive traits/actions and thus make some pointlessly extreme statements about it. Sure, she *has* done good things and has plenty of good qualities, but it is fair to say that she does a lot more taking than giving in most of her relationships, especially with Joyce, and I am most decidedly not talking about the whole taking her in when homeless thing, because that’s helping out a friend in need.
Personally, I do think she is a toxic friend, but I agree that some people here are being rather uncharitable and unfair in how they are interpreting her character/actions in general *and* this scene in particular.
Because risking your life wants to save a person for their safety totally means that you’re now for the rest of eternity allowed to treat them like garbage and abuse them.
They always will owe you because you put your safety on the line. So it doesn’t matter what they’re going through you get to be rude abusive and controlling towards them cuz you risked your life once?
Shades of Amber, huh. She spent all summer fighting for Ethan, and it wore her down to the point that she needed time away from him at the start of the strip.
Joyce told Becky, it’s all true or none of it is. If evolution is real, there’s no Eden, no original sin, no reason for Jesus to die on the cross. If being gay is allowed, none of the morality rules matter. Becky grew up knowing that most people picked and chose, because her parents were very visible hypocrites, so she has flexibility. Joyce’s faith was strong, but brittle, and Becky should have seen the cracks long ago, since she put most of them there.
It’s funny, I recently watched a video about what heat does to concrete. And the biggest takeaway? Those cracks aren’t really visible from the outside. It’s not until you apply pressure that the damn thing explodes and, examining the debris, you find evidence of what happened.
Yes Becky never willingly surrendered herself to her incredibly abusive gun toting father, effectively submitting herself to conversion therapy, to keep Joyce safe
Oh, wait…
This hurts me… I really hope somebody sits Joyce down and forces her to understand what she is doing to Becky and how she should have handled this situation. Joyce isn’t stupid, and she is normally so kind and caring about others, even more so for Becky, even if all that talk before she knew Becky was there was all about her, and she is still trying to accept everything, it just feels so out of left field for her to be taking it out on the person she adores most…
I really hope they can forgive each other and be friends again…
That happens when you’ve got somebody constantly reading over your shoulder, with a “well ACKTSHEWALLY what that ReAlLy MeAnS is…” ready for every line.
Oof, not sure I would call Joyce a biblical scholar. I think having the whole set of approved books memorized, in one translation, because they’re a literal perfect truth, is exactly the opposite of scholarship. It removes your ability to think critically about the texts, how they were culturally formed, and how much of them is back-and-forth arguments. Joyce knew different people argued about the Bible and its “seeming contradictions,” but hadn’t internalized, say, the fact that there is an ongoing debate about immigration in a significant part of the OT, with a heavy “can outsiders convert?” undercurrent. Because it all Literally Happened, rather than being a series of texts by a series of authors with agendas.
Tldr, if you think the important part of Jonah is arguing over whether or not it’s possible to be swallowed by a great fish/whale and survive three days (or does it count as a miracle), you miss the part where it’s actually about repentance and forgiveness and bitterness.
Joyce is saying that she loved Becky so much that the inerrant facts of divine providence that dictated human morality and existence itself were dogshit when stacked up to her. Joyce is not saying that Becky being sad and gay destroyed her faith, Joyce is saying that if there were a mathematical formula that proved the inherent immorality of homosexuality, Joyce would kill math with a gun.
Becky is hearing this as Joyce taking ownership of Becky’s struggles to bash on something that Becky holds as the ultimate proof of God’s love for her working through every miracle Becky’s had since running away: Joyce saving her life. Becky feels that she is being blamed for something she views as a deep, abiding failure on Joyce’s part.
More fundamentally: Joyce and Becky have always had similar moral principles and values, but very different beliefs. Joyce had to jettison her religious beliefs because they conflicted with her values and principles in an irreconcilable way. Becky hasn’t ever felt that conflict because she didn’t have the church rules tied to her concept of faith like Joyce does.
Neither Becky nor Joyce fully appreciate that when they’re talking about faith, they’re using the same words but talking about very different concepts.
Joyce thinks Becky believes something evil because she used to.
Becky hasn’t ever held the same idea of faith as Joyce. For Joyce it’s about structure, rules and a way to know her place in the world. It maybe was harsh sometimes but hey that’s the rules and the way of it and people have the chance to do right, don’t they?
For Becky it’s always been about comfort, love and a way to find meaning in her pain.
Joyce’s concept of god is an authoritarian disciplinarian. An abusive prick who gets you thinking their manipulation and control is love (kind of like her mom, tbh). Becky’s is nurture and comfort incarnate. Kind of like how she thinks of her own mom.
& Tbh until they realize that each have conceptualised faith very differently, I don’t see religion talk ending up in anything but a shouting match.
Last strip Becky blamed Joyce’s newfound lack of faith on Joyce’s personal failings. That Joyce’s faith was based in lording superiority, and that Joyce being unfaithful is a deep personal failing on her part.
Becky and Joyce have been ascribing their own interpretation of faith onto the other, that obviously you think the bible consists of the inerrant facts of God/something you leap through to find the important stuff like God loving me and not touching boobs, and I know you think this because my interpretation of our religious upbringing (that we both developed in the face of constant trauma) is the one you grew up with too.
No she said Joyce’s faith shouldn’t have been based on being superior to others after Joyce made a comment about Dina indicating she felt superior. It was relevant.
Yeah that’s because Dina and Joyce hated each other’s guts and two months ago thought the other was outrageously stupid and wrong about the universe.
As in, within a conversation where these two are saying the same words with different meanings, Joyce just realized she thinks things that used to be objectively wrong. I won’t say she does or does not think Dina was an idiot so much that Dina was someone who was wrong about the existence of God because Joyce had Facts and Logic, much like how Dina thinks Joyce is someone who was wrong about the existence of God because Dina has facts
And there it is. The central irony of this whole conflict laid bare.
Joyce cared so much about Becky’s wellbeing that she lost her faith in prioritizing it– and put a wall between herself and Becky in the process.
Like, Joyce is blaming Becky way more than she needs to, since most of what happened was really Ross’s fault, but at the same time she’s not entirely wrong.
I do hope that the two of them are able to be friends again eventually, but I think they needed to have this out.
What really broke Joyce’s faith (metaphorically timed with the moment her toenail came off) was the realization that her church (and especially her mom) was *enabling* Ross to hurt Becky again. Her faith could’ve survived by discrediting Ross as a bad actor, but the church’s blatant complicity is what made her faith irreconcilable with her love for Becky.
And I am not sure that the church part affected Becky as much as it did Joyce, especially since it was Joyce’s mom involved. It was more Joyce’s mom blatantly refusing to see how Ross was hurting people that broke Joyce I think. It could be that Joyce is seeing parallels between her mom and Becky, since her mom supported the church that hurt Becky and now it feels like Becky is too.
Glennon Doyle had a really beautiful piece talking about how, if the Bible were written today, the Virgin Mary likely would have been a black trans woman or a refugee.
The original Jesus story took one of the most downtrodden, at the time, groups and pointed to it and said “Look, God is in that one”.
The message wasn’t meant to be “this one person is God” – but “Look at those you’ve cast out and turned against. God is in that one.”
I don’t follow. I don’t think the Jews were a particularly down-trodden group at the time – not really more than any other Roman subject peoples. And, since it was coming from with the Jewish tradition, it doesn’t really make sense that it was a “Look at those you’ve cast out and turned against. God is in that one.”
You could make the argument that it turned into that message after the crucifixion when Paul took the message to the Gentiles, but I don’t think there’s good evidence that it was preached that way, at least not until well after the events. Nor is it the message in any of the Biblical texts, from what I understand.
They’ll reconcile. Willis loves his lesbian babies too much not to. Reminder: he stretched the rules of this reality thin so Becky could be spared from Ross’ abuse. It’ll be a long, angsty road but they’ll get there eventually.
Joyce out here saying the most blatantly wrong things to say like she’s gunning for the bad end in a visual novel.
I mean, I’m not gonna throw stones in my glass house, I’ve done my share of “tried to de-escalate only to wind up on the defensive back foot and escalating things way worse due to my own dumb young sense of fragile and defensive pride” and wound up in this exact scenario but still.
Actually maybe it’s because of the glass house that I can throw the stones? Like, I’ve been in that exact situation where a capital-M Matter I had with another person (in Joyce’s case, her not feeling safe/comfortable to admit she’s an athiest to Becky) didn’t feel like it could be right to reveal in normal circumstances, because saying “hey I have this Matter” could very easily turn a normal circumstance into a fight, so I ended up just jamming it into the emotional pressure cooker and letting those bad vibes simmer until they erupted out of me and ended up being both delivered and taken wayworse than if I’d just brought them up regularly. (God I hope that paragraph makes sense, haven’t slept in a while.)
Anyways, I guess what I’m trying to say is that what Joyce is doing is kinda dumb and not the best way to resolve the issue, but it’s a very relatable and dare-I-say inevitable kind of dumbness and it doesn’t, like, make her a bad person or anything.
Joyce losing her marbles was suprising for me (to speaking truth, I waited for this), but I still don’t know if she’s lying to Becky about her being gay be the reason Joyce started lose her faith;
Or Joyce a little coward, to put some guilt on Becky, to blame her about the changes…
No, Joyce is definitely being truthful here. It wasn’t the only step, and it may not have been the biggest, but the first moment where Joyce really stepped back and said ‘I know the church said this but the church is wrong‘ was when Becky asked her if her being gay was a mistake, and Joyce said ‘no. I choose you, every time.’ Dorothy started nudging her down that path, as a goodnatured atheist, and Dina started challenging her, and I think Ryan made her reassess ‘Church = Good, Not Church = Bad’ in her mind which let her start actively befriending atheists… but she still thought being gay was something that could and should be changed, and I suspect she was still thinking she could lead Dorothy and Dina to the way of Christ eventually because they’re good people so OBVIOUSLY they should be Christians too. They just haven’t heard the good word yet!
Becky was a radical shift in her worldview. Becky refused to be reconciled back into Proper Godly Existence, and asked Joyce point blank to choose. Once Joyce started challenging that one thing, as has been building for a while (basically since Becky joined the cast, given the original sin discussion,) the rest started falling apart. Especially because the congregation then proceeded to make it EXTREMELY clear that yes, they WERE in fact the kind of people who’d support the man who pointed a gun at the both of them, kidnap Becky (he was just doing what he thought was right for her SOUL, you see) and then bail him out with the help of a mob boss and continue backing him even after he kidnapped Joyce and like five other people! (Depending on how you count Dina sneaking aboard.) Very easy to justify that break.
Yeah, it didn’t single-handedly cause her faith to change, but it was the first big crack in that foundation, and everything that happened as a result of it tore it to pieces.
That said, it does not at all EXCLUDE Joyce saying it in part because she knows it will hurt Becky on some level. They’re clearly both lashing out by now and Becky just hit her hard last strip. Joyce can be entirely truthful and still be saying it in the harshest way possible.
Have I mentioned both these girls need therapy enough times yet? Can I manifest it into the world with my desperate need for SOMEONE to get some competent trauma-informed therapy and not decide they’ve Won At Mental Health Forever? (*cough Jennifer cough*)
It’s a fictional setting: The therapists are either completely incompetent or non-existent, because if they were present and good at their jobs we wouldn’t have a story >_>.
It turns out therapists in Dumbingverse can only actually see and hear Dorothy and Ruth. This turned the entire profession into a laughingstock and so they had to skulk in the corners of comic strips, never quite present in the real world.
It doesn’t help that after the experience one friend had when she went to IU’s mental health services (where the dumbiverse gang is most likely to go for help) I wouldn’t trust them within a mile of anyone in need of actual help. She went in for help with her depression, and when she described intrusive thoughts the psychiatrist heard auditory hallucinations, misdiagnosed clinical depression as schizophrenia and prescribed anti-psychotics. Then, the anti-psychotics started *causing* hallucinations, made her think she ran over a homeless man and nearly caused a real accident, and when she went back and complained and asked for real help this time, they decided she was an attention seeking liar and again misdiagnosed her, this time with borderline personality disorder.
While I agree a competent mental health professional would be extremely helpful, I honestly don’t expect them to be able to access one any time soon.
Oof. Sounds awful but not completely out of line with what I’d expect from a very large university’s mental health department. (At best, they are woefully understaffed for the student population and rate of even ‘standard’ mental illnesses for college students like depression and anxiety. At worst… yeah, that’s a standout.)
‘Is that still what you really believe? That what I did (kissing a girl) was a mistake?’
*Beat panel while Joyce thinks about this*
‘No. … Pit you against anything else in my life, and you will win every time.’
If Joyce had said ‘yes, I think kissing a girl was a mistake,’ Becky would have kept running out of Joyce’s life and probably ended up in a REALLY bad situation, because she couldn’t trust Joyce not to tell Ross. Joyce said no, she refused to believe her best friend was anything but amazing, and that meant the church had to be wrong about gayness being bad. And you can tell from her face in that last panel (which of course we can see, and Becky can’t) that it’s a HUGE realization to her – tears in her eyes, and a strained smile, because she means this 100% but it also means a fundamental shift in her faith to think that the adults in their lives, including Becky’s dad who SHOULD be an absolute authority on All That Is Good For Becky, are wrong. (At the party two storylines later we hear that Becky and Joyce weren’t allowed to watch movies like Frozen because they promote the idea that parents might not be 100% right about what’s best for you. The sliding timescale means that now that movie came out when they were preteens and it will continue sliding backwards, and it’s not a great sentiment for kids either, but when that strip originally ran? They were banned from watching Frozen because it questions absolute parental authority at age 16. This was drawn from Willis’s life experience, albeit slightly askew to adjust for time – he’s talked about not being allowed to watch Scooby Doo specifically because all the monsters were adults lying for their own gain and how it promotes skepticism and critical thinking. So yeah, this was a MASSIVE shift in Joyce’s thinking.) It’s an implied choice, but they were both understanding it as ‘Becky or the adults in our lives.’
The difference is, for Becky, she was just asking ‘me or the adults and this specific thing they taught us,’ and for Joyce, it ended up being ‘Becky and my understanding of religion itself,’ which is why she tried the next day to smooth out this difference into ‘I know our parents said being gay was wrong but the Bible can be interpreted this way where it isn’t!’ the next day or so. And why Becky got annoyed by that, because why does Joyce need the Bible to say something when Becky’s right there saying it herself? This conflict’s been building for a very long time, and the two of them are just enough apart on what God means to them that they’ve been brushing off early signs of it since before Joyce’s crisis of faith really set in.
I understood a bit about you’ve said. I got the reasons from both. I just got umconfortable about Joyce speaking.
I guess it’s because it must be so hard to write 2 people argumenting, where you must bring characters bring they points and, still, putting their feelings and problems on the table…
Oh, yeah, being able to write inter-character conflict like this where both people have a genuine, valid point is EXTREMELY hard. Kudos to Willis, because it’s become a hallmark of the series – Sal and Amber, or maybe Danny and Ethan, was the last big one, but we’ve also had conflicts like Ruth-Rachel and Raidah-Joyce where one character has much more screentime and point-of-view time… and the more minor one has at least as valid an argument as the major character, even if they’re handling it badly. It’s also really hard to write something like this where the characters AREN’T reacting rationally and perfectly, they’re being dumb angry teens lashing out at each other, and yet still make the characters feel sympathetic and not have one who’s clearly supposed to be ‘right.’ This is a skill you have to put a LOT of time into building, and it’s paid off for Willis here – you can see from the comments that a lot of people are deciding one or the other girls has more reason to be hurt and the other’s obviously handling this badly, but there’s a lot of comments for each of them, not one obvious Right Person and one obvious Wrong Person.
Though it seems to me, and I could be filtering this through my own biases, that there’s an awful lot more “Becky is just a horrible person” than “Joyce is just a horrible person”. Even most of those critical of Joyce in this seem to have a sympathetic take on why she’s acting this way, while Becky’s getting accused of gaslighting and stalking and having always been a horrible friend to Joyce.
I haven’t done an exact count today, but yeah, the people being uncharitable towards Becky are going down Everything Becky Did Wrong, Ever whereas Joyce being an asshole is generally limited to this argument where she’s been being an asshole. I might be slightly more sympathetic to Joyce, at least with this parting shot about how Joyce should skip class, but Becky’s not terrible for taking this badly and she’s not terrible for the fact that she would’ve taken this badly BEFORE walking into the atheism-off.
I mean I am #JoyceDidNothingWrong but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible for me to empathize with Becky’s feelings and understand that even if I think this is the culmination of stuff she’s been building (I do have an explanation for that if anyone wants it), the actions and thought processes she’s displaying are completely within reason for the person she is and the relationship she and Joyce have, or at least think they do (and it’s mostly the former of the two).
Like I’m not really thinking of it as “the first fight these two childhood friends have ever had over something deeply important to both of them” all the time, in that I’m reading this and going “yep that’s something you say when you’re angry” and leaving it at that, the level of “these characters feeling things” is just one part of the layer cake for me.
Like yeah I pretty much process this as “Becky’s fault” on every level other than “Becky feeling angry/hurt/betrayed” because you can’t really put feelings in a box, they just happen, but there’s a way more nuanced conversation going on that I think everyone reading understands, they just aren’t approaching these strips on every single level all at once when they say something like “aw poor Becky/Joyce :(” or “Joyce/Becky is being outrageous!”
Although if I had to think about it that whole “whose fault is it?” thing is more based on the initial walking in on a private conversation thing and the character dynamic that both caused it to happen and made it the sadpocalypse, since this here has been outraged feelings and “you’re doing faith wrong” where I know Becky’s the one who more clearly said it but I do think it’d be uncharitable to say that Joyce herself hasn’t been doing the same thing with her own questioning, and both of them are going “you’re doing faith wrong” because they can’t process the idea that the other has, this whole time, not believed in God the exact same way as they do.
I really hope Dorothy doesn’t just say “you’re better then this” again and tries to really get at the heart of what’s going on with Joyce and help her work through things
I really hope Dorothy doesn’t just go to class after this. You told them to talk right away, Dorothy, and I get why they all did – I think the angry blowout was likely a necessary first step, and if the anger didn’t fester on both sides Joyce would’ve anxiety’d herself to death – but that did also ensure the wounds were maximally fresh, and Dorothy went straight for guilting Joyce.
She goes to class and I think the commentariat explodes at her. I also think JOYCE might, for that matter.
Shit, I forgot they have a shared class today, too, no wonder Joe wanted them to talk ASAP.
Yeah, this is. Worse than I’d expected pre-Liz conversation, but still in line with ‘yeah Becky was never going to take this well.’ And Joyce is not in the frame of mind where she can resonably ask herself, ‘do I actually think less of everyone who is religious for being religious? Do I think less of Jacob?’ which I think was necessary for her to have answered that first question with more than shame and the way she and Liz had been winding each other up. (Jacob here being a good example, even after it all went wrong, because he’s unattached to the fundamentalist shit and also a pre-law student who Joyce obviously thought well of, intelligence included.) Nor is Becky in a frame of mind where she’s going to take Joyce’s loss of faith as anything but personal, even if this hadn’t opened in about the worst possible way.
God, these girls need therapy. But barring that, I think right now they both need some space to decompress and people to talk about this with. (Realistically, I expect Dina or Leslie and/or Robin for Becky, Dorothy or Sarah or Joe for Joyce in about that order. Who I’d LIKE for Joyce is Jocelyne. It’s early in the day yet and Joyce is really angry at the adults in her life! The time is ripe for more Sisters Christian!)
You know I’ve been thinking if Dana comes back (which, timeskip !And a new social group for Raidah and Carl, that lovable rapscallion) I’d been thinking that Sarah being Right would be the most boring choice and Raidah being Right would be the most dramatic.
But now I think that the most interesting story possible for those two would be one where neither was fully right, Dana’s life was saved but maybe she didn’t go back to a home as comforting as Sarah is hoping it was, and these two idiots who spent a lot of time convinced of their own unfailing righteousness in that situation get to look at the other for long enough that trying to assert themselves again feels like more of an admission of failure than anything else.
Which, you know, would be pretty fitting for a new chapter called “Trial and Sarah.”
Hell, I could see Dana being grateful to Sarah/going ‘okay, I get that this was necessary and now that I’m not depressed and therefore self-centered anymore I get that I put you in a genuinely bad situation, even if how you handled it sucked for me’ without having any desire to be friends. They didn’t seem to have much in common to begin with.
We’ll just have to see. I honestly don’t have huge expectations for Dana coming back, but I would like it to be settled by now.
I feel like a few months of space and the subsequent kidnapping were probably good as potential reset buttons for that relationship. Jacob may or may not have provided some social support for Ethan through the Mike thing (we don’t know how close they actually are as roommates,) but either way while I don’t think they’re going to date any time soon, ‘almost immediately after the Harrison disaster, Joyce got kidnapped and watched a man she knew from childhood die’ does sort of make it easier not to hold a grudge. As a bonus, seeing Joyce and Jacob talking again could easily put Raidah back on the path of petty vengeance that probably got sidetracked by the kidnapping. (I firmly believe Raidah can justify a lot of things to herself, including bullying someone when they’re already socially isolated because you and your friends were her entire friend group. But going out of her way to antagonize someone who was just kidnapped and then witnessed a murder? Yeah, no, the only kid on the cast who MIGHT be awful enough not to back off there is Mary, and even then I think she might hesitate. Antagonizing said person months after the kidnapping when she’s getting close to the ex again after precipitating your breakup? THAT is fair game.)
And he is probably, in fact, the best person to talk to on the subject, since he is religious but clearly open-minded about things (so he has experience that Dorothy and Dina wouldn’t), generally empathetic, and good at asking the questions that nudge Joyce down a better direction. So narratively he COULDN’T be available during the timeskip. Buuuut I still think Jocelyne will also work well for the process, and then we can finally vote for her in the Patreon bonus strips again and also Joyce will probably finally learn she has a sister.
Jocelyne is still a big wild card for me, for this whole deal. Mostly because I don’t know Jocelyne’s religious inclinations, nor her ability to handle the curveballs Joyce might need handled. Jocelyne is good for hijinks, established, and for giving real talk about family history, but while she’ll definitely be understanding, I don’t know if that’d be enough.
I am excited for her to come back to the story, but I’m not convinced this is the right arc for that. But the Willis giveth, so.
True. What we do know is that she’s their parents’ favorite because they know the least about her (ie, she keeps her head down,) that she’s actively avoided getting involved in arguments like the one over Dorothy during family weekend because it’s necessary to keep keeping her head down (which suggests she agrees with then-Joyce that atheists aren’t going to hell, and also that she probably has Joyce’s temper as well,) and that she did disagree with Carol on key points, like fighting to ensure Joyce got Halloween. We also suspect she knew what you need to get by legally if you’ve been disowned by your family for the Becky breakin because SHE was anticipating being disowned by her family, but that’s because she’s trans. My suspicion is she is, minimum, significantly less fundie than Hank, and may or may not be an atheist herself. So she’s clearly broken a bit with the church’s teachings even from what Joyce knows, and has therefore done at least a little deconverting. That puts her with more hands-on experience with that process than Jacob has.
But more to the point for drama, I could also see it prompting Joyce to ask about that whole ‘learning to pick your battles’ stuff and why Joss left it relatively subtle. Jocelyne’s not on the same Adult Tier as Hank or Carol, but she’s just enough older that I could see Joyce asking ‘why didn’t you push harder? If you didn’t agree with everything they said, why did you let them tell me gay people were going to Hell?’ ESPECIALLY because she’s so very hurting here right now. Probably not the best timing for that conversation for it to be… well, not incredibly emotionally-charged and probably a little resentful, but a PERFECT time for it in that Joyce is supercharged with drama.
Jocelyne is living in the closet and living a lie to appease her parents. I haven’t seen the Patreon strips so hey maybe she passes well in most of her life and just dons boy drag to appease the parents – buuuut I doubt it.
I don’t see how that will in any way help Joyce. If anything it would likely only further enflame her rage that her own sibling feels the need to live in hiding all over the Bible.
I think Jocelyne would be able to keep a handle on her emotions if Joyce had angry at her for not pushing back harder with their parents. She is older and wiser and can see where Joyce (and Becky!) is coming from whether or not she herself doesn’t believe in god anymore. Plus I think Joyce is at the stage where she can know truly about Jocelyne and be supportive. They can connect over their shared fudged up childhoods! And Joyce can see that there are more things from her family that are worth holding on to.
Jocelyne offers a lot of things that’ll help Joyce right now – that her older sister who supports her had a good reason for picking battles, that she’s not the only one who’s angry at their parents but Joss has learned to hide it (I’ve just realized Joyce didn’t see the ‘I’m gonna be a fucking scientist’ strip or the one about ‘the danged extent of my allowed aspirations’, and I wonder if Becky doesn’t let herself be as honestly resentful of Ross around Joyce because she thinks Joyce only wants Fun Lovable Becky, not just coincidences of timing.) If Jocelyne still believes, she can provide some perspective on how a queer person can grow up in that environment and still believe in God, how you have to learn to make your faith flexible. If she doesn’t, she’s telling Joyce ‘you are not alone and your experience in realizing our parents were wrong and rejecting it all is 100% valid,’ which I think will also have more impact from Jocelyne rather than Liz because sibling who grew up in the exact experience versus kind of stranger. (Jocelyne’s also much less aggressive about atheists being better, probably by necessity.) There’s a chance Joyce gets angry at an adult who didn’t tell her the honest truth, but I think in that case Jocelyne will (kindly) tell her she’s being a bit of an asshole and remind her of that ‘sometimes it’s not safe to say what you’re thinking’ lesson from lunch. The conversation can go several different ways, but they could all be helpful to Joyce, and I think once Joyce gets over the initial ‘what’s a trans person’ shock, she’ll accept Jocelyne fullheartedly. Plus that particular reveal can redirect Joyce’s anger at Becky and bring the conversation to more productive ‘what do you actually believe, separate from our parents lied? Are you angry at all religious people ever? Don’t you have those religious friends besides Becky?’ outlets.
They both love each other, they both have heapings of trauma, they both are arguing about different things, they both are right and wrong about what they think the fight is about. Which is what makes it all so terrible and riveting!
I know this looks bad but I’m sure they’ll resolve there differences when it’s dramatically appropriate. Probably some climactic event or vital plot development that raises the stakes beyond their religious squabble and forces them to re-examine the importance of their relationship. Maybe even through the context of other characters who have significant events unfolding as a nice juxtaposition to their conflict. Things seem more focused on interpersonal drama than high stakes danger, but who knows what’s down the line? I’m sure some long forgotten dangling plot thread will resurface just in time for these two to learn a valuable lesson.
I, on the other hand, kind of want them to drift off into other stories, not speaking but forced in proximity via mutual friends and shared classes. I want Becky to get the lessons Joyce got last term about boundaries and respect. I want Joyce yo sort her stuff, figure out what’s what in her head and soul (if she decides she believes in such a thing).
And then, after a while, they notice that they’re talking again and laughing together at old jokes that no one else gets. And THEN, better sorted and somewhat healed (or at least in less direct pain), they have a better-developed and far less screamy redux of this conversation.
Joyce first statement is kinda given lie by her very next sentence ironically. If your faith has told you that certain classes of (non-immoral) people will (even deserve) going to hell, that faith is kinda teaching that you are superior to other people.
Of course, to Joyce’s credit, once she recognized that aspect of her faith/religious environment she immediately began moving away.
Unlike Becky, Joyce can’t separate those teachings as inherent elements of her conception of Christian faith, so her ultimate recourse was to cut herself away from it.
Both Joyce and Becky just can’t see/understands how the other can/can’t still view Christian faith that way.
Anyway Becky can feel and feelings are valid and all that stuff I keep saying because I feel like not reiterating it makes me come off like I don’t believe it, I’m just inherently bothered by Becky stomping away telling Joyce not to come to the next class.
Like actually do walk away because you’re hurting and this conversation has been four strips of two people who look at the sky and see a different colour and it could go on indefinitely, I’m just kind of processing it like, yeah Joyce has actually constantly defended Becky from every single person she was told was inherently smarter and better than Joyce, she has risked expulsion and been in two car chases that started with “Ross wants Becky back.”
I feel reasonably convinced this is the first time in her life Joyce has yelled at Becky, let alone be mad at her, or even considered her own feelings as mattering more than what they made Becky feel.
No I’m not saying Becky is wrong to walk away or feel angry. None of what I’m writing here has any real meaning to me in how I view the character dynamics or even processing this specific conversation. Just, like, yeah she has actually been through a lot “because” (please note the quotation marks to indicate that Becky is not directly responsible for incurred suffering) of being Becky’s best friend, but she also kept going through it because loving her mattered more than loving God.
I mean she just got emotionally gaslighted about how her own and existential crisis doesn’t matter and psychologically abused by her supposed “best friend”.
Did you I don’t know how elated or anything but forlorn one should feel right after being abused by somebody.
I am also bothered by Becky telling her not to come to class. “Don’t talk to me at class” or even “I wish we didn’t have class because I don’t want to be around you right now,” fine. Because it’s okay that she’s walking away. But you don’t get to tell people to skip class because YOU have an issue—not to mention, I believe the class that Joyce independently chose to skip was Robin’s BS PoliSci class, so it’s not even fair for Becky to imply that decision would be similar to the decision to skip biology, a class where she actually learns things.
More strikingly: Joyce confronts Becky with just one of the (many) things that Joyce has sacrificed in order to support Becky (which may be unfair but is truthful), and Becky’s response is to…demand that she now sacrifice her Biology education to cater to Becky’s feelings? Jesus, how tone deaf can you be? I really hope Joyce shows up to class and passive aggressively calls Becky out for telling her to not go (while poor Joe and Dina stand uncomfortably in their respective corners).
No, Joyce and Becky share the PoliSci class with Robin, and I’m pretty sure it is the same day as calculus. Joyce wanted to be in the class because Becky and Dorothy both need it for their majors and Sarah was taking it as well, so she wanted one with the three of them.
It’s Leslie’s Gender Studies that only Becky is in.
Huh, then why were Becky and Dorothy expecting Walky and Lucy, of sharing calculus calculus, to know? Plus, Joyce definitely skipped calc, she asked Lucy to lend her notes I thought…
::rereads strips::
AH HAH. Joyce skipped two classes! She skipped Calc, which is why Sal skipped too, and THEN she skipped PoliSci which is why Dorothy and Becky were wondering where she was!
I don’t think she skipped PoliSci – it read to me like Becky and Dorothy weren’t already thinking Joyce had skipped, but were just surprised Joyce wasn’t walking to class with Lucy and Walky.
But I’d have to look at that probably non-existent class schedule to be sure.
Alright fine. Doing a bit of research: On what I assume is Monday, Sal, Walky, Joyce, Lucy and Jennifer have Calculus at 10 AM, then Becky, Joyce, Dorothy, Sarah and Roz have Poli-Sci after lunch. Biology is the next day, as is the Gender Studies class.
Joyce skipped Calc, prompting Sal to do so as well (and Sarah to skip her class at the same time). Becky and Dorothy were coming back from some other unknown class (possibly shared, possibly just walking back from the same direction) when they met Walky and Lucy heading to Calc and asked why Joyce wasn’t with them.
It’s the afternoon Poli-Sci class that Becky says they have soon. Biology is the next day, along with Becky’s Gender Studies class.
Carla’s in gender studies as well. Hope we see more of that and not just for the Ruth/Jennifer fireworks.
It’s also worth remembering that they all have other classes as well that just aren’t getting focused on. It doesn’t have to be one of those 4 if someone’s going to or coming from class, which I think tripped some people up, since Becky and Dorothy seemed to be coming back from class.
College students usually take 4-5 classes a semester, so most of Joyce’s and Becky’s are accounted for and about half of Dorothy’s, but everyone else has big question marks where classes could be.
@Regalli
Always have a hard time processing how much that makes, bc I only know US college life from pop culture.
How many hours a week are each class usually?
How many hours a week have people class usually?
On this wiki, feels like there are only five or ten hours class per week, which disturbs me greatly.
Becky’s actually just this worried* about Joyce becoming an atheist because she knows that Dina won’t be able to resist forming an atheist lesbian poly triad with Joyce and Dorothy.
Probably not the best time to bring this up but whatever.
Yesterday StClair asked me what percentage of my DOA art is big asses so I counted all of it, and the art I could consider “big asses” and it’s about 8-10%
Criminally low!
While I was out it I also counted out how many were about boobs. And I may be wrong but it’s about 46%
And to finish of the trifecta How many were about kissing?
About 9% same as butts.
I hope this has been educational. You can now return to your discussion about religion or whatever.
You know… I wonder if there’s any symbolic meaning to Joyce being physically higher up than Becky. Like Willis could have had Joyce come all the way down the steps or Becky climb up them, but they’re on physically different levels
There are two basic interpretations: 1. Joyce has the moral high ground; or 2. Joyce is dominating the space, i.e. looming.
A different interpretation is that Joyce is inside, so she’s trapped, but Becky is outside, so she can walk away. That one feels closer. I.e., the vertical bit is a red herring; the real symbolism is that Joyce has her back to the wall and Becky doesn’t.
huh! interesting thoughts!
i do like your last reading best.
to me it feels like Becky was sort of conditionally waiting at the bottom of the steps, hoping Joyce would come out and make this better. That might’ve been represented by Joyce coming to sit down next to her. But Joyce didn’t want to placate Becky, she wanted to get stuff off her chest, so she’s, literally, standing her ground. (i’m not clear on the campus geography but this is a different building than where the girls stay, right?)
Meanwhile, being at the bottom of the steps, and Joyce at the top, meant that Becky was ready to storm off— and she did.
so, in a nutshell same thing you said except i wouldn’t say Joyce is trapped. I think both of them chose offensive positions and postures: Joyce signifies she belongs in this building, where Becky has found her hanging out with Joe and Liz, and that she won’t simply bend to appease Becky.
and Becky is declaring her readiness to leave the conversation at any moment.
oh right, people were linking to that other strip the other day, so obviously same building.
but yeah, Joyce is clearly ready to return to Joe’s room, which she just ran out of without her stuff. which isn’t visual symbolism for anything, it just makes sense in the situation, but also, it must feel to Becky like Joyce is about ready to go back to “her friends” at any time.
Becky ran off before even Dorothy could say anything; i wonder if, at this moment, she isn’t feeling like everyone else, not just Liz but Sarah, Joe, maybe even Dorothy, thinks she’s the annoying christian who can’t take a joke while they were all having a pleasant time bantering with Joyce about how dumb christians are. (oof.)
This is simplistic, but this argument between Joyce and Becky seems to stem from corrupted beliefs. There’s no doubt between them that their parents’ belief structures were terrible. But is it better to remove yourself from those beliefs as much as possible, or to appropriate the ones that helped you in spite of said parents?
Dry words aside…oof. I figure they’ll spend time apart now. Hopefully it’s not forever.
Neither is better. The best response depends on what drives you as a person, what comforts you, what you care about, who you care about, what kind of society you live in, what kinds of options you have access to, etc., etc.
That’s part of the problem. Joyce and Becky have very different answers to all of those questions.
Maybe. I’m not sure they’re that far apart on the big questions.
In a lot of ways it’s not really so much “which is best” as just which way you break when the damage hits. Neither of them analyzed their best options, they just reacted. Becky leaned deeper into faith as a support, while dropping (some) of the toxic parts. Joyce’s faith broke completely. Neither of them chose those, they just happened.
“The best response depends on what drives you as a person, what comforts you, what you care about, who you care about, what kind of society you live in, what kinds of options you have access to, etc., etc.”
This. So much this. It’s why I don’t wanna take a real side in this fight, beyond pointing out when I think one of them has a good point. (Not sure how well I succeeded in that regard).
Could have been worse! I sympathize w Joyce here cuz she’s trying to articulate something that’s very intense and there’s no good way to explain exactly what she meant while yelling at each other. Hopefully this drives em both forward and they can reconcile after some growth
I’m 99% sure that Willis was well aware of just how nuclear the comments section would be and has been going to great lengths to not look at any of it directly…
They did at least skim, saying yesterday on Twitter that
1) Atheists are a mistake, and
2) Because it had come up in the comments in the last two days via speculation, no, he is still very much an atheist, he just also thinks his comic draws the real asshole atheists out to the commentary.
I also noticed that at least one of the cruel comments towards a certain commenter who was struggling in a concerning way in a certain thread yesterday disappeared, so unless Willis has hired other moderators (not a bad idea tbh) it looks like he’s still around for moderation
Willis actually tweeted a few times about the comments yesterday – early on tweeting “okay phew nobody’s called anybody a christcuck”, but in the afternoon successively tweeting, well, this.
[“i checked too soon”, “atheism was a mistake”, and “(to clarify, since someone was postulating the other day that MAAAAAYBE i was easing back into religion, the answer is no, I myself am an atheist, but that doesn’t mean the atmosphere over here is any less self-righteous)” if you’re unable to fully view the link without being logged into Twitter, since it can be weird these days about that]
Cool Christian genuinely, or one of those youth pastors who’s trying to connect with the kids by figuring out what these new ‘meme’ things are and doesn’t entirely understand what this T-shirt means?
In breaking away from religious upbringing you have many different people, Joyce is absolutely convinced that a God that would look upon people like Dorothy & Becky and say they deserve hell is a God not worth believing in despite trying so hard to defend them.
Becky I’d say can’t come to believe that if God is as just, kind, loving, and pretty much the embodiment of everything good in the world like she was led to believe than there’s no way they would damn her for loving a specific person.
What’s harder coming to terms with the fact that you’ve lost faith in your beliefs or trying your hardest to hold on to it when said beliefs seem to reject you.
Sensible suggestion by Becky. Presumably Joyce won’t be following it.
I think the biggest error Joyce made here is to treat this as something she can “win”. She’s tried a few different attempts at deflection (when asked flat out if she thought Becky was an idiot for her beliefs, she wanted to talk creationism instead. Then about Dina. Then tried to place the metaphorical bill for her loss of faith in the first place on Becky.) None of those are going to work, because the fundamental issue at hand isnt theological, it’s about Becky feeling disrespected. And you can’t argue a healthy person into agreeing that it’s okay to disrespect them.
I mean see the thing is that Becky is trying to win too.
Like Joyce and Becky are saying things in response to each other to bolster their point, it’s just that Joyce is saying “they’re all rules and when one is broken they all broke” while Becky is saying “faith itself is what’s important”, and Joyce thinks Becky uses Joyce’s rulebook while Becky thinks Joyce uses hers, so they’re processing the things the other is saying as a nonsense response in the face of the actual truth that Joyce/Becky understands and that Becky/Joyce understands too, so why are you acting like you don’t?
Then Becky blamed Joyce’s lack of faith on Joyce’s failures and then Joyce said that she’s no longer faithful because of Becky, and both of those only mean things that make sense to the person saying it and not the one hearing it.
Nah, you can totally argue a healthy person into agreeing to that. It’s just that they won’t be as healthy anymore afterwards. And also you’d be some type of asshole.
Okay, here’s a question for the crowd, sincerely asking it here:
Right now, what does Joyce believe in?
And I don’t mean simple stuff like “She’s an atheist” or “She believes that Christianity is bunk”, which is mostly describing what she *doesn’t* believe. I mean… really, what sort of beliefs does she have?
I’m a pretty firm agnostic, but “not following a religion” and “having no faith” are not remotely the same things. I have aspects of belief, just less specific and structuralized, but still things that I hold onto (one of the most important being that people, for the most part, generally speaking, want to do good. We’re just really shit at it a lot of the time. Boy howdy have the last few years been rough on that one).
I think this is where a lot of the issues on Joyce’s side of things comes from. She’s gotten rid of her core tenets of belief, her nigh-unwavering belief in her particular sect of Christianity… but she hasn’t found anything to replace it with. And because her sect of Christianity was so toxic and her break with it was so jagged and rough, it’s poisoned her view of any expression of Christianity.
There’s a lot of people up above me talking about things that Joyce could’ve said or should’ve said or really meant and all that stuff… but I think this is one of the key aspects of Joyce right now: She doesn’t know what she means, not fully. She knows what she doesn’t believe in, but she hasn’t followed it up with anything yet.
Its an interesting thing for a strip like this to explore. Joyce knows a lot of characters who are non-religious or have alternate religious viewpoints, and now that she’s not trying to hide it away from everyone, she has an opportunity to build something to take the place of her broken faith, in whatever form that might be.
See the thing about Joyce being an atheist, a word she was actually unable to say out loud last strip, is that it doesn’t meant she believes in the non-existence of any kind of God, atheism for Joyce is just everything she lost.
Why on earth do you have to find anything new to believe?
As time goes on, you figure out what your moral structure will be, sure. Some things you reason out, some things you just accept because of society, some stick with you from your indoctrination like goddamn scar tissue. But nothing needs to replace that “higher power” idea.
I think you missed that is literally describing “finding something new to believe in” John Smith. You may believe in Star Trek, epicuranism, or secular humanism. But Joyce feels she’s lacking guidance.
Because having a core philosophy is generally a good thing for a healthy mind? Our brains aren’t set up to be perfectly and impossibly logical, and absolutely none of it has to involve higher powers or anything like that.
I may well be overextending the term “believe” here, and fair enough there. But it’s more just a general question of “what does Joyce accept to be true”?
Eh, fair enough. Sorry, I’ve heard too many variations on the theme of vague spiritualism, so that’s where my mind jumped at “belief.” As far as a core philosophy goes, I rather like Optimistic Nihilism.
I’m not sure it’s really true that “core philosophy” is really that important. Seems to me that’s kind of an “atheists need a replacement for religion” idea, which might be a common thing for both religious people and newly former religious people to believe, but I’m not sure it really holds up.
Which doesn’t mean we’re “perfectly and impossibly logical”. Most of us just muddle through without relying much on a core philosophy, even when we theoretically have one. Like all the theoretically religious, but don’t really pay much attention to it people. In theory, they still have a religious core philosophy, but it doesn’t really drive them.
Joyce has no idea what she believes right now. She had a mountain she could point to, but it’s just a pile of garbage as far as she can tell. Now, she has a massive thing to point to and yell ‘THAT’S JUST GARBAGE.’
Until she sorts through it and burns the garbage away, she won’t know if there’s any Actual Real Stuff in there at all. Maybe she’ll come away with a few chunks of quartz or gold or whatever. Maybe she’ll just have a vacant patch she can plant flowers in. Nobody knows, especially not Joyce herself.
Right now she’s only got the huge, crushing pile of garbage.
Right now, I think she believes there’s a definite Right Path set of beliefs, and once you have it, you go all in on it. This includes judging people not reaching the same conclusions. She just switched positions on what the right path is, fairly recently.
Since her definition of her previous beliefs was rigid enough to reject a church service for not having grape juice, she assumes (now that she doesn’t believe that anymore) that when she’s arguing this with other people, she’s arguing specifically about her previous beliefs. That’s why she’s still on a binary that says you’re either a literalist or a total nonbeliever. (See how she expects Becky to respond to her point about dinosaurs on the Ark.)
This is partly about who she is, but also that she grew up in a situation where wrangling with difficult questions wasn’t encouraged. To put it mildly. So she believes she can just glom on to what seems like the opposite, be in the right again and be okay. Not exactly like before but at least somewhere to stand, morally speaking.
She included “whatever’s good for Becky” as a pillar of her new setup, but just ran smack into not considering that Becky isn’t on Joyce’s new “team”, didn’t rea
really believe what Joyce did in terms of faith structure in the first place, (I think when they said Joyce was the best-socialised of her homeschooling group, they meant “most inculcated, least likely to go apostate if she leaves”, not “best-adjusted”) and that her new belief system allows her to openly mock Becky (at least according to Becky). Which is probably not “good” for her.
Oh, we do in fact know that was what they meant about Joyce being the best-socialized (or at least, a significant part of it for at least one member of the congregation, and John definitely echoed it and Carol wanted to pull her out.)
And so does Joyce. But not Becky, at least onscreen, and ‘hey so I know your dad just died but before he let Amber go he said this’ is one of those conversations that seems a bit too awkward and traumatic to expect came up offscreen.
Ditto, even though my break was in 1988, because the people in my church were saying that environmentalists were evil because we had to use up everything in the earth’s resources and leave a burned-out husk of a planet behind or Jeebus wouldn’t come back by Y2K. I spent 20 years as a Pagan before becoming an atheist sometime after getting killed in 2001 (yes, seeing the afterlife made me atheist).
Same. I never had a falling out with anyone or big argument (turns out my dad never really believed either so that helped) but it’s still really relatable.
Joyce definitely could’ve handled this better, but, speaking as someone who’s been in a similar situation and handled it worse, I do respect her for standing her ground here. Becky’s the one refusing to talk about this. She’s acting in a way that’s consistent with why Joyce would be afraid to tell her this sort of thing in the first place
The frustrating thing about the comments is how few seem to grasp the “neither indisputably right or wrong” part and instead just pick one of the two to declare indisputably right and the other wrong. Or vice versa.
I feel like my sympathies tilt differently by day in response to the character who’s getting ragged on more that particular day. Everyone’s angry at Becky? I am now the Becky Defense Squad. Now they’re angry at Joyce? Joyce Did Nothing Wrong, Ever (except that she did, and I freely acknowledge that, but.)
Seems to come up most dramatically with like, Walky and Amber.
I lean the same way and probably seem to even more than I actually do. I may post a lot more in defense of a character I think is getting more targeted, which doesn’t mean I’m actually against the other character in the conflict.
Of course, since I’m not doing detailed semantic and statistical analysis of the comments, who I think is getting the brunt of the commentariat’s rage may depend on where my sympathies lie to start with. I know I’ve seen comments saying “Everyone is attacking X today” when I was thinking they were seeing lots of defense and people had it in for Y.
The funny thing about “Everyone is attacking X” as in I also did this right at the start of this mess, is that “everyone” means X amount of people being mean to the character I think is right, and X is defined by how many people I’ve decided hate Joyce before it becomes everyone.
In my defense, I also meant it more right at the start when this was just “Becky walked in on Joyce talking to Liz” except that isn’t actually a defense because it’s the same thing here!
Same. The ‘Joyce is being an asshole’ comments stuck more in my head but as things have come in through the day the anti-Becky ones have gotten REALLY nasty, and this whole conflict has definitely leaned more against Becky among the commentariat than not.
Yeah. Though this is again my biased opinion, I feel like a lot of the anti-Joyce comments are more on the Joyce is being an asshole and driving the conflict, but it’s understandable why. She’s wrong, but not evil.
While on the anti-Becky side, I’m seeing a lot of “gaslighting”, manipulating, stalking. Trying to ignore the ones that are just “She’s religious and therefore the bad one”.
Depends on who’s indisputably right about something at the moment.
Because if I had to weigh a total comparison Joyce would be the clear winner.
You know, if I’m judging, as in I am an actual person watching these cartoon characters do things and think about it, the thought processes and actions that have led us to this point, yeah it’s Becky’s fault.
Not the feelings, though. Gosh is Becky gonna sting no matter what.
I genuinely think this went well, for both. Like obviously it’s not perfect but as I said a couple pages ago, they got out what they needed to say without calling names or getting mean or violent, this is what it will take for them to be able to sort things out as friends
Yeah. This is painful, but they needed to have it out, and then someone had to walk away. The next step is that they do other stuff while being angry, but they think about it and both decide what they actually want from each other and figure out how to ask for it. If anything, which I think will be something for both.
Is it just an artistic method to color the mood, or did the sun went down within this one dialog? The left the building in bright daylight and panel two now looks like it’s nighttime again.
Sorry Becky (and Joe), but i don’t think Joyce will skip next class. Actually, I hope this will explode again in that class for see how others characters will react. This could be the beginning of a war!
I’m sure that was painful to say and for Becky to hear, but I don’t think I can fault Joyce much for it. Becky was putting words into Joyce’s mouth, gaslighting her for everything wrong with their religious beliefs. Correcting Becky on the reasons for her behavior is necessary, and I don’t think Joyce could have put it much more diplomatically without being dishonest about her feelings.
I hope Becky (and the comments section) learns how hurtful her side of the conversation was. Becky was basically telling Joyce that she lost her faith because she believed the wrong parts. And that she believed those parts because she was a bad, judgemental, foolish person. It’s all Joyce’s fault, and none of it is the fault of their religious beliefs. It’s pretty common and to some extent culturally accepted, but it’s still wrong. It’s still gaslighting a victim of religious indoctrination.
The reality is that Joyce lost her faith because she chose people instead, which is something Becky doesn’t understand. Becky just Batmans her way through, always finding ways to choose both via compartmentalization or crediting her god and by proxy, her faith, with all the good things that have come her way (even though they came from the actions and sacrifices of people who were largely areligious).
Joyce doesn’t do that because she expects more consistency from her belief systems and actually credits the people who help her instead of shifting credit to religion. There are other differences, too, but most of it comes down to Becky being willing to do the various mental gymnastics to avoid cognitive dissonance while Joyce refuses, choosing to address the conflict between basic human decency and her faith very directly.
It’s certainly clear which side of that fence I’m on, but I hope that regardless of which approach people favor, everyone could at least acknowledge that this difference is the reason, not Joyce being foolish for believing the “unimportant” stuff or Joyce being a judgemental asshole being the only reason she’s having to work through prejudice. That’s probably a pretty foolish hope, though, given society’s overwhelming favoritism of religion that has even well-meaning areligious people participating in gaslighting victims of religious indoctrination.
I feel like that is giving Joyce a bit more credit than deserved. Christianity was originally founded as a reform branch of Judaism dealing with the rise of fundamentalism during the Roman occupation as well as collaboration with said organization. It was very much about attacking religious hypocrites, misinterpretation of scripture [usually saying. “If it’s evil, it’s wrong], and an attitude of enduring suffering for the greater good.
Becky and Joyce’s church REALLY deemphasized all of this but Becky undoubtedly felt the message keenly of enduring suffering so that good could come from it. What Becky sees is relevance to her life and that the church was manipulating th message for its own good. Joyce only sees the message and her church as indistinguishable.
I don’t really understand what your first comment is saying. How does a history lesson or a clarification about why Becky is happy to compartmentalize her beliefs take away credit from Joyce’s stance of “You’re my best friend. Put you against anything in the world, and you will win every time,” and all of her actions in the name of her friends that followed? That is truly why Joyce no longer believes. It has nothing to do with the words Becky is putting into her mouth.
And…yeah. Yeah, Joyce does think that belief in a god is idiotic and I don’t think she gives Becky a special exclusion. The part that Joyce doesn’t have the nuance to explain is that feelings on a belief system do not necessarily mean that those feelings represent the general feelings towards every single individual who believes it. People are more complicated than that. Joyce can think Becky’s religious beliefs are idiotic but think that Becky is a kind and intelligent person despite that based on how Becky interacts with people and her successes in school. People are not one thing, and turning “This belief is idiotic” into “Do you think I’m an idiot for believing it?” is a huge simplification. It also implies that you’re only happy to coexist with people who believe different things if those beliefs are totally unobjectionable or totally hidden from you. That isn’t tolerance; it’s either privilege because you only believe things that are widely shared (or at least respected) or you’re willfully ignorant of others’ beliefs.
Joyce could certainly be doing better. “No, I don’t think one idiotic belief defines you as a person. I still respect and care for you even if I don’t think highly of one of your beliefs,” would 100% be better and I think that’s probably an accurate picture of Joyce’s feelings. I don’t really blame her for not having this level of eloquence yet, though, as this is very new for her.
Becky mind you would STILL be offended because it’s one of the most important beliefs she has. You can’t separate Becky from believing in God anymore than you say, “I hate black people but I don’t just think of you as black, Sarah.”
Huh. You know what. I’ve liked this story. Still like it, honestly, It’s why I keep coming back to it, and will continue to. But I’ve come to the realization that I genuinely do not like any of these people. And I wouldn’t have, when I was their age. Perhaps danny and sal, but that one’s iffy, and I only base that possibility on the idea that both of them aren’t habitual jerks to their friends. I know there are serious issues being talked about, they’re serious to me too, but I can’t help but think that if these people were to ask me for advice I would have to *bite* my tongue not to immediately respond: “sounds like you all deserve each other.”
You can’t relate to bad upbringing or interpersonal blunders at all? You must be an absolutely wonderful person. Everyone you meet is fortunate to know you.
I could make any number of comments on how I never said I couldn’t relate (in fact I said nearly the opposite) but I’m going to instead go with thank you for noticing and have a wonderful day, because we’re probably not going to agree and that’s fine.
I just realised another element of why this is so cruel to Becky. Her fear of change has been slapped in her face, Joyce is directly telling her that her being gay destroyed Joyce’s faith. That fear that Becky is changing everyone for the worse is gonna get worse I feel. She’s gonna need to have a long convo with someone patient to help her through that, too bad there’s no therapy in this universe I guess
Also trying to work the gravatar system, I think I’ve figured it out
I think her hair is supposed to be dark/dirty blonde. I tried to find photos of celebrities with a similar natural tone but unfortunately many of them keep burying it in highlights or completely recoloring it. The closest examples who kept popping up were Jennifer Aniston, Amy Poehler, Reese Witherspoon, and late 1970s Debby Boone.
Better example, though a Photoshop job: Revlon’s “dark ash blonde” color is dead on for what I think Joyce’s hair color would look like in a photorealistic render.
@thejeff I’m sorry, you’re right that isn’t what you said.
And I don’t personally feel like anyone’s wrong here either, fwiw I went with “i feel equally sympathetic to both”.
I tried to offer a range of phrasings to encapsulate the various sentiments floated and sometimes intensely defended in this comment section over the past few days. Of course dozens of people have expressed their heartfelt opinion, there’s no way any poll was gonna do justice to the diversity of feelings regarding this conflict.
If I did emphasize the right/wrong framing its because I think a lot of commenters resorted to that sort of vocabulary.
I definitely I could’ve done a better job though! Sorry to anyone who didn’t felt represented!
My question is how on Earth is anyone landing in the pro Becky club right now.
Especially considering that if you switched Becky out for Joyce’s dad or made this the Becky’s dad reacted to Becky, everyone would be bandwagoning on how abusive they were towards their daughter for changing their beliefs and not accepting their process of dealing with that.
But because it’s her “best friend” and a popular character the abusive behavior is written off as just a part of her journey.
It’s funny how the religious majority gets to claim that they’re abusive behavior is non-abusive when it suits them and it’s profitable. But push back against that and your villain.
OTOH, it really does seem like some people aren’t considering the actual characters or their words or actions and just deciding “this character is religious and therefore bad and wrong.”
Hence Willis’s “atheism was a mistake” comment on Twitter about the self-righteousness (their words not mine, though I definitely agree) of certain people in the comments.
I voted Joyce Did Nothing Wrong but saying it out loud makes me feel like I’m Pat Boivin clearly stating to the objections of his friends that it’s wrong to get a game store worker to reserve a console for him that “it’s different when it’s me because I want it.”
I voted ‘don’t judge either but my sympathies are with Joyce,’ but it’s very close. They’re both utter disasters taking this the worst way possible, and I feel for them both because it’s a bad situation to be in and it’s one they’ve both been building towards over time without realizing that was what they were building towards.
Where’s the “I think one is mostly right with some flaws, and the other is mostly wrong with some understandable grievances” option? Are nuanced opinions only allowed if you agree everyone is mostly in the same boat? 😛
I guess if I have to say both are wrong or both are right (because neither is flawless or without any merit), I’ll go with both wrong; Joyce less wrong. Joyce wasn’t wrong to say what she said in the room, but her responses have not been productive in addressing the situation. Though it’s honestly hard for me to see her having the maturity and eloquence to address this situation any better given her situation. That doesn’t make her less wrong, but I do have more sympathy for why she’s screwing up here.
On the other hand, Becky was perfectly fine being hurt when hearing that and it’s fine for her to be upset about Joyce not being honest with her. However, she has repeatedly escalated things and made things far more personal than they need to be with personal attacks directed at Joyce specifically. She’s also falling right in with some really problematic religious rhetoric that’s practically designed to alienate her from Joyce and pull Becky back towards her church. This is also understandable, and I’d probably blame her upbringing more than her, but it’s still wrong and much worse than anything Joyce has done.
The results of the poll are simultaneously disappointing and unsurprising. Joyce said the first Mean Thing ™ so Becky gets far more leeway, and the fact that Joyce’s statement wasn’t aimed at Becky or meant for her to hear doesn’t matter. Nor does the fact that Becky has thrown back vitriol significantly worse in this very conversation and has thrown worse at Dorothy on a daily basis for most of the time we’ve seen them together. Plus, Joyce said the Mean Thing ™ about Becky’s religion, which is culturally accepted the worst possible Mean Thing ™ someone could say. Speaking of religion, people are naturally going to gravitate towards the religious or areligious person based on their biases and religious people far outnumber areligious people.
Interesting points! I like that you’re suggesting perhaps less reasoned, more instinctual reasons why people might favour Becky, both formal (it may be easier to read Joyce as having “striked first”) and social (religious folks may read Becky more sympathetically).
Do the religious outnumber the atheists in the DOA readership though? I’ve actually long wondered what the demographic breakdown of this comic’s readership/commentership is like and thought about putting up a little survey to get an idea. Maybe some other time .
When does she get to go back to class then, Becky? I stopped caring about the rest of the argument because it’s super obvious that neither are on the same page, but that last line seems… I don’t even know the word I’m looking for. I almost want to say threatening but we all know Becky wouldn’t really DO anything so I still don’t know.
It’s a passive aggressive jab. It’s basically like ‘why don’t you do us both a favour and stay out of my presence’. It is hostile without indicating further desire to actually argue.
Just gonna pop in and say that these characters are still kids. That’s not an excuse for their actions, and it for many I’m sure, an unsatisfactory explanation. They’re still responsible for what they do, of course, and they’ll suffer through failure and consequence, hopefully learning from it. Seems like this comic often kicks the hive for alot of folks fairly often (I enjoy it and generally consider it to be engaging an well-written), and though I struggle to tell when things are genuinely heated or more grounded, especially through text as opposed to speech, I hope some of the folks here can step away from this and take a breath. I don’t mean to tell anyone how to engage with fiction they enjoy, or to say I don’t sometimes make the same mistakes, I only mean to say that some of the interactions here seem more aggressive than usual. Regarding the characters themselves, I understand that for some hating or vilifying a fictional character is a means of relief, and I hope that’s all it is. To make devils out of traumatized children for their mistakes seems to me a wholly unhealthy and hurtful way of approaching the subject, and is bound to make some feel hurt and/or become defensive. Rattled on too long now, point being be mindful of each other, some folks connect to characters or their experiences on a more personal level and are going to react in ways that may seem out of left field. Other folks might just be here to talk smack about fictional folks ‘cause they don’t think they’re hurting anyone. Either way, if you feel your blood jumping, might be a good moment to step away and thibk before engaging. Hope ya have a good day now, gonna slink on outta the comments.
Oh, the joys of a story where people are all flawed and neither side of a conflict are really “right”, but instead both fall flat to their own shortcomings and lack of perspective.
Wow, Joyce managed to insult their friendship, Becky’s faith, Dina and Becky Herself in one swoop.
Truly impressive. The sad part here isn’t that Joyce lost her faith, it’s that she won’t accept anyone else having some. For someone like Becky, who’s been through a LOT it’s the only thing that hasn’t failed her.
I’m not saying their friendship is over but they need to talk it out.
They both need some time and space to cool down first, then they can try to talk it out. Too soon and they’ll just set each other off again.
I hope this was Becky realizing Joyce just told her “I don’t understand how you can keep the faith when you’ve been handed every reason in the world not to”, and recognizing they need that cooldown space if this is going to go anywhere.
The thing is, Becky is accusing Joyce that her faith was superficial and only about feeling that you are better than others but that’s just not true.
Joyce wants to be a good person and that “doesn’t deserve Hell” line exemplifies it. I imagine learning about the treatment of gay people by Christianity was an awakening point for many people, including myself. We started questioning how good is a faith if totally innocent people are treated like that.
Joyce wishes to be a good person. We have seen many examples of that. She acted according to her faith for most of her life because she didn’t know any better, she had no other frame of reference. It took her mere months of being exposed to non-Fundie people to completely change her world view. She is frustrated, as can be seen in this arc, because her ENTIRE life foundation collapsed and she is trying to build something new from scratch.
She is frustrated with Becky because the Fundie religion ruined her life, it killed her mother, it made her father the maniac that he was. Joyce can’t understand how can Becky still cling to something that just keeps hurting her.
As some commenters have been pointing out, Becky and Joyce have been talking past each other for a little while now – what Joyce isn’t seeing is that Becky isn’t fundie anymore, and hasn’t been for months and months.
I’m fully going to acknowledge myself as the In Too Deep Guy because *gestures broadly at like eight million words written in the last week*, but I don’t really understand the comments like Joyce definitely believed her faith made her superior and she’s blaming Becky for her loss of faith, as these are the words being said in a conversation between two people who
A. Not only fundamentally the other’s belief in God, they think the other believed and acted the same way as them.
B. Have never fought in their lives.
I just feel like we’ve been too devoted to the literal words of this argument that we’re processing it like it’s about how Joyce can be an atheist but she’s not allowed to be mean, and ‘being mean’ is definitely the most important part.
Like, sometimes stories are not about proving a point, there’s not always a moral lesson or objective moral reading where Joyce learns she just has to stop being so danged Problematic, sometimes it’s just about falling down on a big spiral of despair and anger where there’s no way out until something important gets broken and there’s no going back.
I can understand where the superiority complex accusations are coming from (‘what I’ve been taught is what is right and everyone else is wrong’), but I don’t think that was actually her genuinely held mindset. More like it came with the territory.
That particular line from Joyce was “when it came down to it, I chose you above everything else”, just phrased in the worst way possible.
What Joyce was taught was right and everyone else is wrong, except that doesn’t mean what it sounds like.
If Becky had said this it would be outrageously egotistical, because Becky processes her faith as something malleable surrounding a core of God’s unending love for her. Becky acknowledges that everything besides that is subject to change if it is sufficiently contradicted, and Becky wouldn’t have the slightest problem with this because her faith in God is the only part of it that cannot be changed.
Joyce’s beliefs weren’t correct, Joyce’s rulebook of verifiable truths was correct. Even apart from the reality that Joyce has been almost zealously kind to everyone even at her fundiest, like it takes an entire day for her to get over being wigged out by Dorothy being an atheist and just accepting that she’s a good person and quickly finding herself chafing under the idea of her precious cinnamon roll burning in Hell so she hopes there’s a nicer Hell for her, Joyce didn’t lord her superiority in her faith in the same way someone can’t really lord their superiority in believing that math is actually real.
You don’t believe in physics, you don’t have faith in gravity. They’re just there and someone really smart put the work into explaining why they’re real, except Joyce’s really smart person was her mom and dad and what was explained as real was fire-breathing dinosaurs.
What’s really tragic about all this is that Joyce and Becky are being divided by the same experience. What Joyce doesn’t seem to be able to understand about Becky and Becky about Joyce is that their personal experiences of the same events have had opposite effects on them.
Joyce has lost her faith because she cannot accept the existence of God that condemns Becky’s sexuality and who seems to enable people like Ross and Carol to behave in the way they do.
Conversely, everything that has happened to Becky – the whole Techicolor superhero comic experience of her two abductions, finding Dina and a group of supporters at Indiana U – all confirmed her faith in a just, loving God who protects those who have faith in Him.
Sadly, the whole thing could have been avoided if they had just talked to each other about it. Both of them have been going through faith transitions–Joyce to agnosticism / atheism, Becky to liberal Christianity–but neither knew it, because they stopped talking about religion entirely.
If Joyce hadn’t been afraid of Becky’s reaction (namely, this reaction), she might have expressed her doubts, and Becky could have explained that she didn’t believe in the whole hellfire version of Christianity, and they could have found common ground.
I know I’ll forever be in the minority about this, but I think Joyce should have talked to Becky when the subject of her mom in heaven was brought up. Joyce was trying to be sensitive and Becky indicated that she wanted the truth instead. It would have been a much calmer moment and Becky wouldn’t have to find out Joyce was an atheist by walking in on her mocking believers.
Joyce wouldn’t have been ready on her own within a sane amount of time (like… years). If she’d been able to discuss this with a good sounding board, she would’ve become ready over the timeskip.
I’m just now realizing how infantilizing the “Joyce-Nonsense” comment would have felt. Like, maybe it was meant as a quirky way of referring to her dilemma (i.e. “you always work things up in your head that end up being no big deal”), but knowing what we know now about Joyce’s struggle with Atheism, calling it straight up nonsense like she was trying to avoid eating a green bean that touched her mashed potatoes probably would have made me not want to talk about whatever it was even more.
There’s a definite thing of even Joyce’s friends treating her anxieties as funny and ridiculous quirks… when to Joyce, they’re clearly deeply distressing. The food one in particular is a prime example – on a good day, she can banter about it and find it amusing, so people think it’s fair game. But then we also see her talking to Booster about bringing lunch to Sarah and trying not to think about Sarah eating the burrito, and that seems both very sincere (she’s not on the playful banter friendship level with Booster the way she is with Dorothy or Becky or Jacob) and very ‘oh god Joyce you need to talk to someone about your anxiety disorder.’ I totally get where Becky thinks ‘Joyce Nonsense’ is acceptable ground, but yeah, I can also see Joyce finding it draining over time, especially when she genuinely is grappling with something awful. (And having another issue on her mind seems to exacerbate the anxiety for more mundane things like having a dead toenail fall off.)
I don’t really expect this to change, because speaking as someone else with an anxiety disorder you do in fact have to joke sometimes about how COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS your anxiety comes off as to outsiders looking in and/or yourself a day removed from the anxiety, and that aspect of Joyce is at least somewhat autobiographical as well. But it is something where, if the plot ever led down ‘Joyce gets actively pissed at her friends for making jokes at her expense,’ it would make a lot of sense and I’d be very much on Joyce’s side.
So yeah, it probably did, but also I think people joking about her thing about food touching other food probably weighs on her over time. We know she has at least a little anxiety about her diet making her look immature, and digs about her eating off the kids menu can’t help.
Walky is dating Dina at the time and Joyce bets him money that he can’t stop being, well, Walky for an entire week.
And he does, actually. He stops slouching, he pretties up his appearance, he gussies up his vocabulary, and Dina is all over him. He stops being Walky, so Joyce eats a whole bunch of gross stuff to make a big poo that Walky is incredibly excited to see.
(look just roll with it)
Joyce declares herself the winner and as Walky is giving her the money, Jason steps in and says Walky won. Yes, Walky is a a loud dipshit all the time, but he doesn’t pretend he’s something he’s not, he’s aware of who he wants to be and what he has to do to achieve it, and he doesn’t tell other people how to live their lives.
Walky is Walky, and it’s wrong to try and force him to be something he’s not and has no desire to be on the grounds of it being better on someone else’s say so.
It ends with Joyce beating Walky up and declaring herself the victor anyway as well as smart, beautiful and queen of the ponies, because It’s Walky! was good like that.
OTOH a lot of the time it is “Joyce nonsense” and she needs that. I’m sure that approach between the two of them has helped her any number of times in the past. This time it turned bad.
Most recent example would be without someone rolling over her Joyce nonsense, she’d never have gotten glasses.
Maybe Joyce should have just put up with it until she couldn’t anymore and had to decide for herself to do something instead of being mommed at.
I know she’s a cartoon character and was having a cartoony reaction, as in I don’t think that was actually indicative of Dorothy being Like That so much as it was Rule of Funny, but, like, in a realistic context (and I think Walky being a huge bag of dicks about it the entire time made it a lot less funny), you can’t actually drag your same-age friend to something they don’t want to do, know matter how much of a comedy screwball they are.
Yeah, it’s one of those things where what Joyce really needs is someone to diagnose the fact that she has an anxiety disorder that tends towards avoidance even when the problem is LITERALLY UNAVOIDABLE and work with her on how to recognize that tendency, disrupt the anxious thought pattern, and reroute it to more productive ways to deal with said pattern. At the moment her friends are picking up the slack, but because it’s Joyce I’m not sure they all recognize this is, like, a problem. That causes Joyce incredible distress even if it sounds silly that she can’t stand the idea of food touching other food. Or you get ‘ask, it doesn’t get done’ as the way to get anything productive done rather than ‘yeah someone has to spend 15 minutes debating this with Joyce, but that means next time it’ll take less time because Joyce will recognize it and catch herself, hopefully.’ (Again, competent, trauma-informed therapist really needs to be here because it definitely sucks for Joyce’s friends to spend fifteen minutes arguing her into ‘you need your eyes checked and this will not end the world’ or make an appointment and drag her there for her.)
And how does Becky react when she comes to Joyce, all wound up with “Becky Nonsense”, and is told that it’s exactly/only that, and she should just do what she wants?
Aaaahh collage. The best setting to have drama that will test friends ships and make you change into a more honest person (sorta). Totally worth the
$60,000 of debt and a useless degree.
I am an off and on reader, did Joyce ever tell Becky about Ryan? I feel that also contextualizes this argument. Joyce believed Christians were all good people that she could trust. Experience proved that wrong with her family, her church community, and just other christians generally. Becky isn’t the only one who was harmed buying into that belief system. Joyce was a big believer in “purity culture” and post-Ryan the only man she felt safe with was Ethan (which she stopped seeing after Becky came out to her). Her and Becky are both so young, I think some forget how college is where people develop into adults. It’s through really big conflicts like this with long held value systems from childhood. I just wonder if Becky, once she calms down and receives a real actual apology, will be able to be there for Joyce. It’s quite possible given her own experiences with her faith, she might not be…
She had Sarah tell her and that’s why when Becky threw a party for Joyce it was in her room, with only people Joyce approved, and was intended to be alcohol free, to create a party experience, with no risk of a stranger trying to hurt her.
Again, it’s not like Joyce is wrong. Becky’s character is… weird. Of the two of them, Joyce feels much more like a real person (I suspect because there’s a lot of self insertion there).
Becky is probably harder to accept as realistic if you haven’t met anyone like her whose religion isn’t something they will just drop or that will break because bad things happen.
Joyce isn’t wrong because she can’t be about why she has lost her own faith. But she isn’t right either because it isn’t something to Becky that is a problem or something she is clinging to out of desperation. In Becky’s eyes, God is sending the solutions (Joyce, girlfriend, friends, motherly mentor figures) and warped followers with flawed teachings and bad people are the problems, not God as an actual concept.
I didn’t meant Becky’s clinging on to Christianity would be the unrealistic part. Her behaviour and manners come across as… cartoonishly exaggerated to me.
I said this on Patreon regarding Becky and Joyce’s friendship and I was wondering what other people think of it.
It is a scenario wherein Becky is dependent on Joyce to remain her Joyce, and that Becky does not give to Joyce the same level of emotional stability that Joyce gives to her.
Except I don’t think it’s as simple as Becky cruelly and ignorantly taking from Joyce, I think Joyce has proven herself to be Becky’s shield against constant cruelty from everyone who was supposed to care and nurture for her, something that has obviously traumatized Becky and so Joyce herself has decided that Becky is so vulnerable that she needs to be able to unload every emotion that crosses her mind at Joyce, but Becky can’t do the same for Joyce because Joyce has decided she can’t burden Becky with her own problems.
Over the series, does Joyce ever tell Becky the things that upset her that would require a level of strong emotional support on Becky’s part?
Because Joyce did try that one time and not really on purpose, it was just expressing anger and Becky walked into the room expecting Joyce to tell her not to fuck Dina like she already decided she shouldn’t. Dina’s birthday party has the now pretty relevant argument they had where Joyce said the thing that was on her mind and Becky blamed her for it, except that’s maybe the one thing where Becky can’t be supportive towards Joyce and otherwise if Joyce had talked about a separate problem, if she had been willing to give to Becky the ability to be a rock that Joyce has assigned herself as Becky’s and Becky rolls with this as “this is my Joyce and I can trust her with every thought in my head”, I think Becky could be able to listen.
And now that I think about it, that has happened, just not because Joyce openly and willingly relied on her. Becky learned about Joyce being attacked by Ryan through Sarah (Joyce being in the room, okaying it, and ignoring it not because of Becky but because she herself didn’t want to think about it) while trying to take Joyce to a wild frat party with kegstands, and so Becky immediately began offering support, apologized for kissing her a few days prior (as in Becky reflected on an action she had done to Joyce and was horrified to discover she might have triggered something traumatic in Joyce), and then organized the dorm party so that Joyce could still be happy and get an experience she wanted, but within a safe space.
And then what happened the next day? Toedad.
Like, as I’ve been thinking about the ideas of Becky depending on Joyce that Joyce herself has been feeding, I wonder if Joyce solidified those thoughts because of him. Yes shit had gone wrong, but Joyce just needed everyone to come together and be nice and listen to Jesus. Toedad had done wrong, but it had yet to become something they couldn’t make right.
And then he pointed a gun at them and kidnapped Becky,and then their congregation and her own mom and older brother all went “to be faaaaaaiiiiiir”, and I don’t think Joyce can accept anything she’s gone through as bad enough that she can rely on Becky without somehow undermining that pain, that Becky needs her support for her trauma and Joyce cannot burden Becky.
I think it has been an “all take, no give” thing, except Becky isn’t giving because Joyce won’t tell her what she needs.
Yeah, there’s a reason I brought up ‘Joyce knows, Becky doesn’t’ about how badly their community at large failed them. How can you tell someone who was just kidnapped by her dad at gunpoint that your mom said the exact same thing afterwards without it seeming like trivializing what she just went through? She can tell Becky her dad was bailed out, because that’s immediately relevant to Becky’s life… but actually looking at the texts they exchanged, Joyce only ever says ‘he was bailed out’ (and the paperwork, as we know, credited Blaine,) not ‘my mom called me with this incredibly guilt-trippy, awful language about how she bailed him out’. With the divorce, I think Becky DID find out about the church’s role there afterwards… but like with Ross’s last conversations with Joyce, this would have happened after the kidnapping and his death, where there were more than a few bigger traumas in play. I’m not entirely sure how much Joyce internalized ‘you were the most obedient’ in the wake of the kidnapping, because she in particular had such a no-good very-bad day.
All of which makes it sympathetic for Joyce not to bring it up to Becky – so many of her compounding traumas come right off the heels of Becky’s more obviously traumatic ones – but mean Becky would have been offering support if she’d known, but instead the cultural conflict has been boiling over in Joyce’s brain while Becky only knows part of the story.
If Joyce says to Becky “my mom is lionizing what happened as acceptable and righteous!” and “I can’t believe my mom and older brother are telling me I’ve acted out!” she’s, like, talking about herself in a scenario that started with “Ross kidnapped Becky at gunpoint.” Even if it doesn’t really work that way, as in Joyce still had horrible shit happen to her because of Ross like having a gun pointed at her face, she can’t say it in front of Becky because “Becky had it harder than me.”
And this is why I find those kind of trauma contests really troublesome. Trivializing someone else’s pain goes both ways (though it’s often unintentional or even without you even being involved/aware) and the mentality of “I can’t complain because others have it worse” means there’s plenty of hurt getting ignored, and assumes that emotional support is a zero-sum game.
I’m reminded of the lyrics to one of my favorite Brown Bird songs:
“Lord knows that everybody’s got a cross to bear
And I see no use in trying to contrast and compare
There’s always someone being slaughtered
By a bigger stack of splinters somewhere”
Yeah. The worst part is, I think if Becky walked in right after the phone call and asked what happened and managed to get an answer out of Joyce (‘Mom said he was only doing what he thought was best and that she’d die for me,’) I think Becky WOULD have recognized why Joyce was upset and reacted well in the moment. But now that time’s passed and they’re having this fight about something that’s been building up for ages but took Becky by surprise, Joyce bringing it up now comes off as her using Becky’s trauma against her to win an argument. Understandable every step of the way, and still very, very sad.
Joyce “starts to express a need, and in fact possibly an existential crisis.”
Becky “How dare you have an existential crisis didn’t you know the world revolves around me? How dare you have changing beliefs or Express those existential quandaries to me, especially those that challenge me.”
Honestly I’m kind of at a loss for how anyone is still trying to bend over backwards to take Becky’s side on this one. Because she is being if not outright abusive very close to being so, while treating Jo.
e as if she isn’t even a person with needs or wants that could extend to different things than Becky needs or wants.
This is put me firmly in the let the friendship burn camp Joyce would be better off without Becky.
And to be clear, most of the “to be faaaaiiiir” part happened when Becky went back to La Porte with the ambition of being emotional support.
I wonder how it would’ve gone down if Becky had stayed behind. A lot of what made that sequence work was actually witnessing people being a shit to Becky, to her face. (And it was one of the first major cracks in Hank’s ability to keep it together, too.)
Becky is around all the time. Liz is around ONE MORNING. It’s ‘a loss’ to Becky that Joyce goes to hang out with the friend she may only get to see in person for a few hours a year instead of climbing on the person who lives pretty much next door that she spends several hours with per day, every day?
If that’s actually how Becky feels, absent the rest of this shitstorm, all I can say is YIKES.
Yeah, I suspect that’s a tiny bit of jealousy and fear of abandonment, loudly covered over with her “I’m Joyce’s best friend” shtick, and probably mostly genuinely wanting to meet this Facebook friend of Joyce’s she’d heard about.
This feels like way too charitable a reading given Dorothy’s own commentary and the juxtaposition of Becky being unapologetically herself and what Becky now sees what that means for Joyce.
Becky is confident about some things, but fantastically insecure about others. But “no one wants to see that”, so she pretends to be Wacky Becky. But that’s not being dishonest (to Joyce or anyone else), that’s just, um, HEY LOOK OVER THERE
I know it’s more hurtful because she overheard her friend saying it but… Hey Becky if you wanna be a Christian in this world you gotta build up thicker skin. People are gonna call those beliefs stupid, and you can’t lose your shit every time someone does.
Also love how Becky has some of the most UNHEALTHY attachments of the group and is WILDLY possessive but everyone else is like “but Joyce said she was stupid and that’s worse :(” come on now y’all. Becky more or less had this coming. She ain’t exactly the kind of person I’d trust my deepest conflicts with based on her behavior.
Also love how Becky has some of the most UNHEALTHY attachments of the group and is WILDLY possessive but everyone else is like “but Joyce said she was stupid and that’s worse :(”
I mean yeah this is true.
I feel like Dorothy (and I mostly pin this on Dorothy even if Joe and Sarah were at least tokenly agreeing with the thought process) and by extension the members of the commentariat who have parsed this out as “Joyce did wrong because Becky is sad” not as a tiny piece of a much greater picture but the full totality of this entire fight and what’s truly important here, that Joyce needs to go Make It Right and Be Better…
I mean that’s wack, I dunno how else to phrase it. Life is more complex than whether or not you’re a bad person because you inconvenience someone with your pain.
I’ll say it again, Becky isn’t upset that Joyce doesn’t believe, she’s upset that she looks down on her for still believing. There is a huge difference there.
Literally the last panel of yesterday’s strip showed that Becky directly blames Joyce herself for her newfound atheism that Joyce herself still cannot bring herself to refer to as atheism.
Does Joyce look down on Becky? Because most of what she’s said and done seems a lot more like looking down on herself and beating herself up for having been so stupid for so long without someone like Becky ever entering her mind.
It feels pretty weird that everyone here seems to be pretty anti-christian-faith.
I guess i come from england, where Christianity doesnt mean homophobia or xenophobia or creationism or anything like that at my church, but there’s not only two options (extreme christian/atheist)
I really relate to becky using her religion to cope with the trauma of losing both her parents and community so it kinda saddens me to see people calling becky out for having a belief
We also have A LOT of different types of churches, and our country had a healthy amount of quakers and diests in our formation. The latter is ironic because constitutionalists tend to think the founding fathers are great… and conservative… and all super religious. No one wants to talk about how Benjamin was a player or Jefferson only thought white rich landowners deserved to be educated and that is why he said only the educated should vote. :). I think most people in the country are spiritually inclined but not religious. (athiest married to a polythiest and my child’s God father is Christian. mom’s strait up agnostic, rest of the family is mostly 47 flavors of christian)
Well, in fairness, your country gave us both John Nelson Darby (who got no traction in England but kickstarted the evangelical movement in America) and Richard Dawkins (who hit his stride as a celebrity atheist scientist).
And also, a good chunk of our founding transplants were religious refugees from England. Like, “let’s not repeat our persecuted past” is why the First Amendment enshrines religious expression as sacrosanct.
Becky states that the important stuff of Christianity isn’t about nonsensical matters like the earth being only 6,000 years old. Granted. But isn’t forgiveness supposed to be a big part of Christianity? I’m not seeing a lot of it here. Becky tried to get back together with her homophobic father whose crimes against humanity are far worse than Joyce’s implication that Becky is stupid for her religious beliefs. So she could forgive him but she can’t forgive Joyce even though Joyce has already apologized? Just shows how Christianity actually fails at one of its core tenets, doesn’t it?
Forgiveness is a big part of Christianity, and given a little separation, Becky might come to that realization and forgive Joyce. Expecting anyone to always forgive people the second they *perceive* a slight to them is asking way too much though.
This is the fun part about the religious card because you don’t have to justify the fact that you believe something by faith you can use it as a bludgeoning tool to be upset at everyone around you and act like you have a reason to be upset when you’re the one being irrational.
Religious ideas flexible on purpose so that you can persuade yourself from guilt or negative imagery while being upset and Superior feeling to everyone else.
Literally earnestly I think it’s just memetic evolution and that the ideologies that do not allow for the flexibility to ignore specific tenants and create your own made up standard die off in competition with those that give individuals the padding to make up whatever they want as the standard for why they’re right and everyone else is wrong so they can be upset.
So it’s not like anybody intentionally made religions that way it’s just that the religions that aren’t that way die off. But it doesn’t make any surviving religion more palatable and in fact it shows the great hypocrisy of religious believers.
Cuz you know all these beliefs and structure are super sacred when I want them to be but completely fungible when I don’t want them to be and you have to take them serious and not upset me in ways that I’m not going to tell you before I’m already upset.
If there was ever a mimetic construct that has taught more people within the history of our world bad epistemological tools to intentionally hamper them and trap them with an ideologies then religion I don’t even have a clue how you could create one better.
Some people think “Oh, you just don’t like religion because it’s different” or think people are just anti-Christian. They say “Oh, atheists are just their own religion” despite no founding document, no dogma, etc. Apaprently “disliking other ideologies or behaviors” is apparently a religion if you don’t immediately agree and understand why that person objects to them.
Nope. Many of us dislike religion because we see it as a bunch of ideologies that have evolved to survive by any means necessary, often at the expense of people, both believers and not. We see faith as epistemologically rolling the dice with your beliefs, without any care for the truth. It’s like closing your eyes and swinging a baseball bat around and then acting surprised when some people doing that hurt others and pointing to people who are lucky to not cause harm as proof that blind baseball bat swinging is fine.
Becky’s behavior is so irritating here because she’s doing and representing all of the most insidious parts of religion. Compartmentalization. Flexibly deciding which beliefs are important and which aren’t based on convenience. Blaming bad things related to religion on the individual while crediting religion with the good things everyone, even non-believers, do.
Becky doesn’t seem to believe anything particularly awful, but her thought processes are the same thinking that leads to and perpetuates all of the worst we see in religion. She’s lucky, but it’s just that: luck. She might not be so lucky next time she rolls those dice, and she won’t be able to tell the difference. To be frank, she’s only gotten to where she is because her sexual orientation conflicting with her faith forced her to re-roll the dice. We have no reason to think she was that different from Joyce before running away from Anderson.
Joyce, on the other hand, is done rolling the dice. She’s putting them down and walking away. She sees the problems not just with a specific belief, but with the whole system of faith. When faith comes into conflict with her love for her friends, she chooses her friends, and she’s had to do that enough that she’s done considering faith as an option in the first place.
I feel for Becky as an individual because she’s been hurt, too, and I honestly see her as more of a victim of her faith than a perpetrator. And that’s generally my view of most religious people. Hate the game, not the player (though when players are in part creating and maintaining the game, even the negative parts, they also have some hand in it, so it’s not quite that simple). However, Becky is a fictional character, and her behavior, her beliefs, and what she represents are just… Ugh…
I think she’ll get there. Forgiving someone immediately when you’re still mad isn’t real forgiveness. It’s acting. Becky needs time away from Joyce to process this. She didn’t say she’d never speak to Joyce again, just that she doesn’t want to see her in the next few hours.
Yeah but honestly a friend who treated my own existential crisis of my loss of faith so flippantly and as if it was a personal insult to them, wouldn’t be a friend that I would keep.
That is them prioritizing their own happiness above your journey and then trying to gaslight you into being stuck into the box that they want you to be in for their comfort. That isn’t a friend, that is somebody who wants you as an unchanging trophy to make them feel comfortable.
If I was Joyce Becky wouldn’t see me again because I wouldn’t want to see Becky if she was going to act this way.
You’re right she’s much more likely to allow Becky to abuse her continually and not speak up for herself and 15 years down the line realize that she let a “friend” abuse her for 15 years. It’ll take Becky not living next door and their relationships growing apart from time, but in less Becky actually starts showing she cares about Joyce, this is just a long-term abuse relationship.
With Becky being the abuser. Which considering how much abused he’s been through you’d think maybe she would take two seconds to think about what she’s putting others through.
But no Becky is most important. Other people aren’t allowed to have problems that distract away from Becky’s problems.
When Becky pointed out that Joyce was only sorry that she’d been overheard, Joyce didn’t deny it. When Becky asked if Joyce REALLY thought that she was an idiot for believing in God – which would have been a perfect opportunity for Joyce to rectify herself in any manner of ways, including apologizing for saying that, explaining that she meant herself and not Becky (IF in fact this is true) – Joyce did not deny that either.
Joyce isn’t sorry. Her apology, at this time, isn’t anything Becky can accept.
Not only didn’t she deny it, she started explaining why she thought Becky was stupid, using examples that Becky never thought were important and had already discarded.
Joyce apologized for getting caught, not for her literal words and actions that hurt Becky’s feelings. She started with “Liz wants to apologize”, then says “I’m really really sorry” without saying for what and Becky called her on it, and Becky made it clear that what’s bothering her was the “Christians are idiots” comment and Joyce steadfastly refused to apologize for that.
So no, Becky doesn’t owe her forgiveness in the heat of the moment.
Her attempts to forgive her dad happened after she’d had a LOT more time to think about shit and cool down.
There’s a lot of stuff going on but I want to focus on this bit specifically:
Joyce did actually apologize, and she is apologizing for the reason of causing Becky pain through something she said (which is a way more complex thing in of itself, but let’s roll with that because it’s definitely how Joyce processes it).
Becky tells her she is sorry she was caught, so whatever Joyce is thinking, that Becky is sad because of something she did and she has to make it right while three other people go tell her to make it right, doesn’t actually matter. Joyce’s apology is inherently insincere because Becky has decided as such.
Why would Joyce keep apologizing for this when Becky has already told Joyce she is not actually sorry? If she said sorry to that, do you really think Becky would not go “well why’d you say it then?”
Like, at what point in time is Joyce sufficiently redeemed in Becky’s eyes before she’s allowed to explain herself?
I mean to be fair “well why’d you say it then” is a prompt for an explaination
Whether she’d accept any explanations at the moment is another question entirely, she’s clearly not in the mood to give charitable interpretations of anything Joyce says right now
Joyce has actually explained herself. The Earth isn’t actually 6000 years old, Becky. That means God isn’t real and you should know this because we both believe the same thing in the exact same way.
It’s just that Becky thinks Joyce was also capable of and already getting rid of the unimportant stuff, because Becky thinks Joyce processed her faith the same way and vice versa.
I’m going to emphasize this part is a character read (and one where the both of them are super angry and are using the same words to mean separate things that they think the other intimately understands), but the way I see it, Becky wants Joyce to apologize for failing at being a Christian, and for failing at that because she did her faith wrong and treated it as an act of superiority, and Becky thinks it’s superiority on Joyce’s part because if Becky said the words Joyce is saying, it would be self-superiority. Becky would be declaring her faith as correct, that no one else got it but her, and Joyce’s failure is in losing her faith because she did it wrong. Except Joyce’s faith or lack thereof was never the motivation factor, it was Joyce following the rulebook her upbringing told her was objective fact.
I’ve been avoiding weighing in here, but Becky has previously declared her faith was correct and that no one else got it but her. In the arc about her mom’s birthday, she looks up to the sky and says “Hi Mom, me, Joyce and Dina, who I bet is SUPER PISSED that this is all real.”
Like, she straight up does think that Dina is simply wrong about the part where Heaven exist.
Well yeah but that’s what faith is. Becky believes that God is there and Dina is going to look really silly before she and God make friends and talk about cool dinosaurs and Dina meets all the dinosaurs that are also in Heaven and then Dina and Becky and Becky’s mom will all ride dinosaurs together.
I am right and I think I am right should be kind of the same thing, (I do not comprehend faith and therefore cannot make commentary on it myself) but the difference is that Becky feels it and perceives reality as one watched over by a loving God who performed miracles for her.
Yep. Joyce hasn’t apologized for that because she isn’t sorry. When Becky gave her a chance to apologize for calling her an idiot for believing in God – Joyce deliberately chose not to take it.
First off we can all be idiots about things specific things that we’re just wrong about because we are not currently either parsing it correctly or informed enough. So I’m an idiot daily on plenty of things.
That being said should Joyce apologize if she actually doesn’t think more highly of Becky’s logic parsing skills because she believes this idiotic, from her perspective, view? Should she apologize despite the fact that she is not of the opinion that Becky is being smart by making the decision that she is?
Put very simply should Joyce lie about how she feels about people who are religious to Becky’s face cuz Becky got mad?
Also, is it fair to frame Joyce’s feelings on the idiocy of one specific belief as Joyce’s entire feelings on Becky? Because that’s what “Yes” would have done. Even though I think Joyce may 100% believe theism is idiotic and doesn’t give Becky any special dispensation, I don’t think Joyce believes Becky is 100% an idiot.
Like you said, we can all be idiots about various things. But we can simultaneously be super intelligent and knowledgeable on other things. Trying to turn someone’s feelings on one belief into a personal insult of your entire person is really immature and seems to imply that you don’t actually respect people as people even if you disagree with them. It implies that instead, they have to disagree with you in a palatable way.
So no, I don’t think Joyce should lie. I also don’t think Joyce should be expected to say “Yes, I think you’re an idiot.” I wish Joyce was eloquent enough to say “I can think one belief of yours is idiotic and still respect you and value you as a friend,” but that would be expecting a bit much of her at this stage. Evasiveness is honestly better than lying or just caving to Becky interpreting what she said in the most personal way possible.
Especially considering Becky’s response to Joyce’s very serious and honest statement at the end. Joyce has a lot of growing to do to learn to navigate this sort of thing. Or Becky could grow up, but considering her ridiculous “rivalry” with Dorothy and her responses here, I don’t give that particularly good odds.
Okay, but do you go around calling OTHER people idiots for their beliefs? Because, you do realize, that’s what Becky’s problem with Joyce right now is.
It suddenly strikes me that Joyce specifically avoided stating the reason for ditching her faith because she figured the more personal and honest reasoning would just hurt Becky even more. She didn’t actually state that until the second time Becky tried to put words into her mouth about her faith and why she no longer believed it. First telling Joyce she believed the wrong things were important and second that Joyce was at fault for believing the more judgmental side of their religion.
People are focusing so much on how much Joyce’s one inadvertent comment and hesitance to apologize hurts for Becky, but so few are acknowledging the absolute venom Becky is shooting back and how painful it must be for Joyce.
Whatever Joyce thinks of Becky’s faith, she clearly still cares deeply for her friend and doesn’t want to hurt her. I’m not sure if the same can be said for Becky. It sorta feels like Becky’s care for Joyce is contingent on Joyce behaving a certain way. When Joyce has stepped out of line, Becky seems to partially or fully withdraw that support. She did this in the past when Becky dismissed Joyce as going through a dumb phase, and she’s doing it right here. In both cases, she mic drops and leaves despite seeing that her friend is clearly upset. Has Joyce ever done that to Becky? Just bailed on her when things were uncomfortable or failed to go after Becky when she left? Has Becky ever gone after Joyce when she was upset to offer support?
Becky is constantly pressing Joyce’s buttons and pushing her out of her comfort zone, and people seem to like her for it (including Joyce to some extent). She’s also openly hostile to Dorothy, but because she puts a spunky smile on while doing so, all is forgiven. But the instant Joyce does anything that might upset Becky, the happy façade drops, and Becky is nothing but angry and distant.
When Becky showed up after running away from Anderson, it seemed like the two had a really cute and awesome friendship with tons of mutual support and love. But the more we see of things and the more I read into it, the less healthy things have felt…
So I had a terrifying thought earlier and wanted to share
What happens if Carol finds out?
To clarify I don’t think Becky is going to be spiteful enough to specifically seek out and tell Carol Joyce no longer believes, but I don’t think she’s going to be inclined to keep it a secret around school. Joyce might not be inclined to keep it a secret around school either to be honest since the person she was specifically hiding it from knows now.
Which means other students are likely to find out
Students like Mary
Who is absolutely spiteful enough to tell Carol if given the chance
And maybe it’s the past experience with this church group but I feel like she’d resort to some drastic measure to “save the soul” of her (so far as she knows/is willing to accept) “only” daughter
It blows my mind that people actually blame Becky for Joyce hurting her.
Few pages back someone said Becky deserves this too. Kind of disappointing to see, ngl.
Like I said on a previous page, what I think is happening is that people are projecting themselves really hard onto Joyce – and so it would hurt them too much to accept that Joyce might be in the wrong here. Also, people AGREE with Joyce that Becky is “an idiot” for believing in God – therefore, in their minds, she wasn’t wrong to say so.
Holy cheese David, those close ups are superb! Your art has come such a long way and is now so very expressive. That panel 1 Joyce is something else. Kudos to you.
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“I KNOW ABOUT THE BAD PLACE HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN A SYSTEM THAT SENDS YOU TO THE BAD PLACE”
idk, thing is Whatever will exist whether you want it to or not, so as long as we can’t prove what the Whatever is or do anything about it other than what you think you ought to be doing, if you want to believe the Whatever is good, I say more power to ya
…
this is fine 😬👍
It is what it is.
And not in just a tautological sense.
Isn’t it?
Over?
Now?
It’s over.
Isn’t it?
They’re not out yet.
You know what they say – heaven for the weather, but hell for the company.
Aw. It’s over already. I wanted to chant “Let them fight.”
Joyce tackled her dad, and now the own Becky.
Damn it..
Well, it’s the first good argument of Joyce in this conversation. If she had frased it like an honest question, rather than shouting it to her faaaaace, that dialog could have gone in a complettely different way.
How is Becky not the one loosing faith. She’s the one with the hatrick of bad things in religios teachings, plus that role model of fundamentalistic thinking as a father. How can Becky keep her faith and Joyce don’t. That is the question Joyce should have asked – not shouted.
But: They are 18 and both new to this reveal.
Joyce has had a lot more exposure to different ways of thinking, and overall seems a fair bit more susceptible to being influenced by others. Give it time, Becky should be coming around as well.
Why?
Becky has already changed her views dramatically, because those parts weren’t important to her. She’s dropping all the anti-science nonsense as fast as she can identify it with Dina’s help. She’s dropped most of the toxic controlling stuff from her religious ideas – with the exception of her premarital sex hangup.
Why should more exposure to different ways of thinking make her lose faith? She’s been able to change her thinking without losing faith, unlike Joyce who’s faith was too brittle to change without breaking.
I keep coming back to that dialogue between Joyce and Becky where Becky said “but Joyce, evolution doesn’t contradict anything important” and Joyce was like “ORIGINAL SIN!!!!!!”
Joyce’s faith was always very sin-centered. She was very into denying herself and submitting and guilt. Becky’s faith was not really like that. So Joyce couldn’t reconcile her faith with her changing world view, with her admission that maybe feeling proud of yourself and having wishes and dreams is ok. Joyce literally believed in “all the good we do is trouigh god, nothing we do is our own accomplishments”! She NEEDS to let go of her faith to get rid of her very harmful beliefs.
Tbh Becky has a much less abusive relationship with her faith. Her father was abusive, but she never internalized his abuse the way Joyce did. So Becky can believe in a good and caring God, who loves her and doesn’t want her to go to hell. Although she still believes sex is sinful, she doesn’t believe her desire is sinful, just the act itself. Totally different situation.
So basically Joyce has to learn that not everyone is like her, and Becky has to accept that Joyce is going through a rough transformation and that she is actually angry at her past self more than anyone else. They both just need to be able to communicate… Which they are terrible at. Let’s see how this goes.
I think it’s because Becky’s family is dead that she isn’t letting go of her faith. For Joyce, letting go of her faith meant finally fully accepting her friends and sexual self, and reconciling the contradictions between her faith and her reality. For Becky, however, in deciding to be out and fully herself she had to, ironically, give up a lot of who she was: her family, her home, her security, and her community. Her faith is the last thing she can keep.
Good point. Now they just need to talk, not screem, it out.
Agreed, I wish this had come to more of a head.
Well, that could have gone a lot worse so I’m gonna call that a win!
It’s not a win for Joe though. Next class is gonna be real awkward for him and maybe Dina too. No one is thinking about the real victims here!
Dina: Both Joyce and Becky are being incredibly quiet recently. Finally, someone besides me learned proper social behavior!
Oh no, Becky’s definitely going to bring this up to Dina.
Dina’s probably going to have some thoughtful but analytical lines that run counter to Becky’s faith, like “that makes sense given what she has been through” or “so you are saying she has finally seen reason”, which will go over well.
Oh no. It’s already been one week of feeling slightly apprehensive about reading the comic for the first time in the morning, how long will the knife get twisted?
They’ve been together awhile. If they hadn’t settled into some kind of understanding regarding the atheism/christian thing I’d be surprised.
Dina has been working on learning how to comfort people for awhile. So while it may go there eventually, hopefully she can give Becky the comfort she needs first so Becky can be in a place to hear it.
My guess is rather that they never spoke about it. Like how Dina’s asexuality didn’t come up until it became a problem for Becky. Dina would wait for Becky to bring up the subject, and Becky wouldn’t until it becomes a problem for her.
Nah, they already spoke about it this semester, even – part of their cute talk on meeting up after winter break was Dina saying “I regret to inform you that God does not exist” and Becky saying “You’re proof that he does”. They can disagree safely about it for the exact reason Becky said yesterday – Dina doesn’t mock her beliefs.
While she may not mock Becky’s beliefs, we should not forget that she likely still intends to dispell them.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/radiometric/
For some reason I can’t reply to A Red Balloon’s comment – Dinah already dispelled the beliefs in question here. Becky doesn’t believe the Earth is 6000 years old, or that there’s a sky-sea, or that Parasaurolophus breathed fire like bombardier beetles.
When comments reach a certain nesting they can’t be commented anymore, so you just use the most recent reply if you have anything else to say.
Like this explanation!
That’s my take on it too. Dina is concerned about science and particularly about dinosaurs. As long as Becky’s beliefs about God don’t get in the way of a correct up to date understanding of dinosaurs, they’re of no concern to Dina.
Insofar as Becky’s primary coping mechanism seems to be avoidance, I’m pretty sure they haven’t had such a conversation. Her reaction to Joyce’s little faux pas suggests that as well.
I can see her saying the former but not the latter. Possibly a version of the latter that is more respectful of both Becky’s faith and Becky’s emotional state- I doubt she’ll need to clarify to Dina that she’s upset and Dina has actually shown better awareness of when to be supportive first and express opinions second than a great many neurotypical people.
Perhaps Joe and Dina can get together after the explosions die down.
I hope the Bio Class Buddies can continue their burgeoning mutual acquaintance of sex talk that would be awkward if it involved any other characters despite the divorce.
Dina is too much woman for Joe to handle.
Reasons it could have gone worse:
1) Neither of them died
2) It is not presently raining spiders
3) …?
Joyce could have made it sound more like Becky owed here something for that.
There is no oatmeal.
The Soggies do not yet rule!
But they may.
Raining spiders sound absolutely terrifying.
Imagine hundreds of tiny paratrooper spiders which weave their own parachutes, gliding quietly on the wind.
I don’t think spiders actually need parachutes, but I’m not up to doing the math to figure that out.
See: H.G. Wells ~ The Valley of Spiders
Baby spiders (spiderlings) of some species actually do weave parachutes! Using them to glide on the wind is how they can travel long distances.
Not raining spiders, but my wife got to experience a swarm of freshly hatched water beetles flying overhead and deciding our hot tub was a good place to land. She was NOT impressed, even less so when my son and I laughed at her reaction.
Haha I remembered a buddy saying he went outside once and a LITERAL FLOOD OF COCKROACHES poured down a water spout
…he immediately went back inside
Apparently, from looking it up, the word for a group of cockroaches is an “intrusion”.
“Raining Spiders” sounds like a good name fora band.
Head Alien could’ve showed up.
I think you might be right.
I give them three days apart. A week, tops.
So in other words, you’re predicting they won’t be friends again until 2023-2025.
Maybe those arcs will be shorter than usual?
They’re gonna be AT LEAST a day apart. This whole thing did quite a number to their friendship.
One chapter = one in-universe day and one book = one IRL year, and in the last nine years there’s been only one book with more than the standard four-chapters-per-year (something that was so unusual Willis mentioned it on Twitter months and months in advance). If Becky and Joyce have healed their relationship by the end of this book roughly mid-2022, I’ll be rather surprised.
Who knows? Maybe for such a pivotal point in the story like this, there will be a small time-skip of some kind.
And there it is, in case there was any last doubt about Joyce’s thoughts on Becky’s faith.
“My love for you and recent experiences helped me realize I needed to cast off the cult programming I’d been raised with, and I can’t understand why you don’t seem to want to do that too after everything you’ve been through,” would have been another way of putting it. Not a perfect translation, but it’s off the cuff.
Becky still being religious =/= “refusing to cast off cult programming.”
It kinda is.
Seriously, stop and think about this. Isn’t it just amazing how many religious folks end up in their parent’s religion? Failing that, in the religion of their town/state/country?
Are you seriously going to say that people’s religion isn’t primarily determined by whatever they’re exposed to from the time they’re young?
that’s a bit of an oversimplification– what makes a cult a cult is the *power structure*, not the core beliefs. There are a lot of kids who’re forced into authoritarian and amazingly shitty organizations because of their parents– there are a lot of *adults* who find religion without parental input and don’t get taken into that whole “we’re saved, everyone else is damned, disobey at your peril” mentality.
Remember: a significant portion of U.S. adults (under a third, IIRC) believe in some kind of god or higher power that’s not defined by Christianity, Islam, Judaism or any other organized religion. You can think the universe was created by some kind of magical entity without needing to let that tell you who to sleep with, or whatever
And yet, modern fundagelicalism is all about power. Even power over people who aren’t members. See for instance, the horrifying abortion law in Texas. See the effort to overturn Obergefell vs. Hodges. On the inside, see the Abuse of Faith scandal in the Southern Baptist Convention. See the scramble for power to abuse church members with lesser power. And when it comes to getting and using power, the SBC is a piker compared to the Roman Catholic Church. If power is your definition of cultism, there aren’t many Christian denominations that aren’t cults.
And yet Becky is neither Southern Baptist, nor Roman Catholic, nor any sort of fundamentalist. The point remains.
So she came up with those beliefs on her own separate from those constructs?
Or are you trying to say your point stands because although all of her beliefs are informed by those constructs she has tailored them to make her own pick and choose cult that only she knows the rules to?
Because that is astoundingly bad thinking.
The idea that because you picked and choose willy-nilly on your own feeling which beliefs are good ones out of a religious construct does not remove the influence of those religious constructs. In fact it lets you guard the source of your ideological construction from criticism because “obviously I don’t practice that bad version. I practice the paint by numbers religion that is only available in my head that you have to guess about when you’re going to step on my toes. Directly back to those religious I am supposedly escaping by picking and choosing beliefs from them.
To remove oneself from the influence of an ideological construct you actually have to consider each belief not due to the merit of being a part of the ideological construct that they came from.
And since none of the concepts from the ideological religions truly have founding in evidential merit you could maybe say there’s some lessons in there that are worth something but why do you really want to dig through shit just to pick out the corn.?
And after I dug through a bunch of shit and now harvested a bunch of shit corn that doesn’t mean that I am not still eating shit corn. Just because I pulled those pieces out of a pile of shit and set them to the side does not make them less contaminated by shit.
So maybe don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater on exiting a religion do you actually consider whether or not certain things bring you value but don’t try to claim that you have somehow removed yourself from those ideological constructs by playing your private game of cherry pick.
That’s a lot of words to say “Becky’s stupid for still being a Christian, on top of being a gaslighting abuser.” Which is both idiotic, and not the story Willis is writing.
She is absolutely a fundamentalist, and probably a fundagelical, because fundamentalism and evangelicalism have merged.
She was certainly raised as a fundamentalist, but it’s not nearly so clear her current beliefs fit that category.
Actually it’s a lot of words to say you’re wrong.
Specifically you are wrong that she is somehow removed herself from fundamentalism.
@BarerMender: Fundamentalism and evangelicalism aren’t some “once you go down that path, you’re that forevermore” bull. Becky isn’t a fundamentalist or an evangelical.
There is a point somewhere where people say religion is absurd, and therefore, you either choose faith or you don’t. What you put behind this faith doesn’t really matter, so all bible is true or noodle god, it’s the same.
That’s why religious people are much more tolerant of people form other religion than atheist, who don’t share this will to leap in the unknown.
So, basically, it’s an argument on where the point is. It appears that Joyce has a more social approach to faith, faith toward people, while Becky has a more internal faith. The first is shaken when someone doesn’t act the part (the good atheist, the bad christian), and while the second can change religion or doxa while keeping faith (I feel like I’m oversimplifying a whole lot of Kierkegaard, St Augustin, Descartes and Pascal).
Still at this point, since what social construct (religion, doxa, church, mentorship) is around the faith doesn’t really matter to the second type to define their faith, it also means they can follow any contradictory path or invent it.
The problem is here that Becky as well as Joyce continue to use the word “christian” as an equivalent of an evangelist-constructed definition of faith. For example, neither of the two is now considering going theravada buddhist, or rastafarian, or isese, and not even episcopalian or mormon.
Their cultural background still drives a good part of what their faith or lack of faith encompass as social structure, and even more, it also is reflected as a negative in what they want their future beliefs and action to be.
So, to summarize, I think both sides here are wrong (usually I try to demonstrate both sides are right, but not today, it’s friday).
Bingo.
I feel like that is definitely the perspective of religion from someone outside of it.
You could say that about a lot of things people learn when they’re young. We’re social animals and culture sticks, even in subconscious ways, for our whole lives. Even people who spend our entire lives trying to cast off the vast majority of it have troubles and usually don’t get around to some aspect of it.
Meanwhile, “cult” has an actual definition, and it’s not that. Both Joyce and Becky are survivors of religious abuse and familial emotional abuse, which is a huge thing, but how they each choose to deal with that is up to them.
From Oxford:
>Cult: A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
>Cult: A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister
>Cult: A misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
Hmm. No, I’m going to say I’m pretty okay with “Cult” in this context.
And yes, you can say that about many things we learn young. That’s… kinda the point I was making. That’s the easiest time to get people to accept things as truth – whether or not it reflects objective reality.
Yes, I am aware that the word is used loosely and out of context from how people who study and interact with cult behavior use it. Your argument seems to be that because she hasn’t completely abandoned religion, she’s not even trying to reject any of the things she was taught, including the harmful ones. My point is that while she may be still struggling with some things (like the premarital sex bit, which as people have pointed out is probably masking unrelated feelings), it’s extremely reductive to suggest someone actively moving away from beliefs that reject them personally and seeking out science is refusing to “reject programming”.
“In a cult, there’s a person at the top who knows it’s a scam. In a religion, that person is dead.”
It’s a meme, but it really does reflect the only fundamental difference between a cult and a religion – whether the people who benefit financially from it actually believe the bullshit it’s shoveling out.
@Victor the problem is that in religion lots of people are financially benefiting from it.
Look at all of those Fund-a-Mentalist preachers. Joyce and Becky both have identified themselves as “fundie kids.”
dude I don’t wholly disagree with you but whipping out dictionary definitions ain’t the flex you think it is.
Who would think using a dictionary is a flex? Somebody tells you you’re using a word wrong, what else would you do?
Use a stick. Or a whip, more flex(ible).
Now you’re gonna tell me English speakin’ folks tend to have English speakin’ parents.
To be fair, English is a pretty horrible language >_>.
@Wraithy2773 Da fuck you say?
Modern English is a beautiful hot mess of a language!
Due to it being around four languages squashed haphazardly together, it is one of the most flexible languages in the world.
(says the English teacher/scholar)
(and just in case it’s not clear, the hot start is meant as a joke – you are welcome to think what you like about the English language, even if you are obviously wrong)
(in case that wasn’t obviously a joke… insert infinite loop)
Indeed, it’s greatest abhorrence is in fact it’s mightiest strength, that because English is such an incomprehensible mess of contradictory rules and nonsense spellings and pronunciations, it has in fact required to be as flexible as humanly possible!
Being sincere, I find English to be a perfectly fine language, but I’ve also started learning Korean recently, and boy howdy is that language so much nicer when it comes to knowing how to pronounce its writing system…
@Wraithy2773 In fairness, a lot of the contradictory rules are contradictory because they’re not the actual rules.
Like, the common “ghoti” is pronounced “fish” thing is bullshit, because you have to ignore all the rules like “when gh comes at the beginning, it’s pronounced as a G” etc. in order to make that true. We pronounce “ghoti” instinctively as “gotee” because we instinctively know those rules, but we have to ignore them to make it wrong.
Also, Hangul is designed in a way that English simply isn’t. Like, it was literally invented at court and then adoption was pushed by the state. Compare with English, whose alphabet has such a ridiculous lineage that the letter Y is called “the Greek i” by French and a bunch of other languages because it was so tacked on and some Roman dude was probably responsible for nuking some random letters because he didn’t like them.
Yup, King Sejong The Great was pretty badass. Going “Holy shit this written language we’re using is pure trash, guess we better just invent a new one that’s easy to read and write and pronounce” is one of the most impressive ways to earn a title like “The Great”.
I mean, winning wars, that’s impressive, sure, but inventing a written language is like ten tiers above that!
As I understand it that’s kind of just how humans work. We’re behavioural mimics, we pick up on what other people around us do and if it seems to be working we copy them. It’s a really useful survival mechanism and it’s a huge part of the reason we thrived.
I find the, “People follow the religion of their parents so they’re indoctrinated” misses the somewhat easier, “People follow the religion of their parents because they get something out of it.” The idea they must seek something true out of scientific curiosity is an academic’s view versus the idea they are satisfied with some essential factor about it.
I think you’re missing the point. Obviously they get something out of it. They fill a need, either a social need, or a need for meaning, or something else. We know that, it’s not in question.
The question, the problem, the frustrating bit? The part that makes the words “Programmed” and “Indoctrinated” show up? It’s just how dead convinced people are that their religious path has some objective meaning beyond those internal filled needs. Even though it’s largely an accident of geography, even though there’s a billion people with opposed views and just as much conviction.
And if you’re saying that we should just quietly let people be wrong, well. That’d be easier if they didn’t set policy.
There’s also another possibility. That religion actually has fundamental truths and importance to growth that most religions possess some measure of. Which is the exact opposite of your position. If you believe religion is valueless you will see it as an accident of geography and not truth being truth (“To quote Enemy Mine”).
Phipps, I have tried three times and I cannot parse that paragraph. Try again.
If religion wasn’t an accident of time and geography, you’d see older defunct religions popping up all over the place, inspired by the same thing as the original believers.
Yet we don’t see that. We see religions with little staying power rising and falling through history while the stickiest religions that play on human insecurities to persist completely independent of the truth of their claims continue to predicably persist. All of these religions, dead and alive, had or have believers just as sincere as whatever pet religion people claim is valuable or true.
Someone was trying to dismiss you elsewhere by saying that you’re not religious so you wouldn’t know. But why would that help? Why would having your own personal stake where you feel like you’re special, that you’ve got it figured out in a way no one else has, mean you’re more objective about this?
I feel like it’s the opposite. Most religious people I hear talking are essentially incapable of legitimately discussing this without their bias towards their personal beliefs crawling in. Their view is one where they are right and their religion is special, fending off the advances of unbelievers. But their religion isn’t special. It’s one of many, many religions, most of which harshly contradict, and all of them have equal claim to the truth based on faith. All of which have to fend off challenges from both areligious people and those of other faiths.
There are cases where a particular religion will speak to someone later in life, sure. However, the vast, vast majority of religious belief rooted in childhood indoctrination to some extent.
@ludairre – you clearly need to hang out with more pagans because that is literally happening
You seem to be forgetting about the huge number of more moderate, more casual, and even more secular practitioners of religion. For many religion is community and tradition and culture. It’s not about exactly how old the planet is or being a member of “the correct faith” but the rituals that you grew up with and provide you meaning. It’s the friends and support structure that you are part of.
Z, do you really believe any neopagan religion is even recognizable as the same as any religion from the early Middle Ages or Antiquity?
Really?
Thanks Z – took it right out of my mouth.
And, “eh, whatever” – I mean, no? And neither is any modern Christianity, including Catholicism. Time changes all things.
Go back 1000+ years and no religion, Christian or otherwise, looks remotely similar to its modern version.
The point was that people see something of value in these old religions and, with no prompting from their parents, take them up.
Also, John Smith, that’s funny because what CT Phillips said made perfect sense to me. Maybe you just are too closed minded to parse the idea that anything other than your beliefs can contain truth.
BTDubs: This is exactly the sort of argument that gets people to say that atheism is just another religion. When you hard-headedly refuse to hear any position but your own. That’s one of the bad parts of organized religion, that lack of flexible thinking. And when atheists adopt that stance, it gives all of atheism a bad name.
NOTE: I don’t believe that. I have met plenty of atheists who are flexible thinkers and who are willing to have open and frank discussions about belief or the lack thereof. There are plenty in this comments section alone.
I’m just saying, when people say it, they’re talking about conversations like this one.
Rose:
Thank you. I’m an atheist, but I get really uncomfortable with the growing zealotry on “my side”.
John Smith:
I’m not trying to accuse you of zealotry, but I do think you’re analysis is pretty one note and I don’t like the logical extension of your reasoning.
IMO, there’s only a couple steps more to go before you’re saying that religious people are irrevocably tainted by their brainwashing and shouldn’t be allowed to partake in the public discourse or even make decisions for themselves until their indoctrination has been treated.
What do you do with “cults”? You break them up, forcibly if necessary and for the good of the cultists. You remove them from their bad influences (otherwise known as friends and family) for their own good. You remove their children from them for the good of the children.
I’m not saying that John Smith believes any of that and I’m aware that I’m pretty close to a strawman, but “cult” is a pretty loaded word to be throwing around. If anybody that bothers to read this DOES believe all of that, then you and I are on opposite sides and don’t think for a second that you represent me just because we share a lack of belief in god. Sorry for the rant.
@Rage
You’re right, that is pretty straw-mannish. I’ve never talked about and certainly don’t want to break up families and prevent the religious from having public discourse.
As far as “Cult” goes, yes it’s loaded and that’s kinda the reason it gets used. Is scientology a cult or a religion? It certainly started as a cult – its originator is an SF author on the record as saying, “If you want to get rich, start a religion!” Despite the absurd beginning, it got that coveted tax-exempt status and a worryingly large following. Give it a couple hundred years and I have no doubt people will be arguing about Scientological literalism in threads like this. Give it even longer and we’ll probably end up with weird Scientology-Christianity fusions. Historically, that’s how religions evolve. Seriously, look into the history of the greek gods, a lot of them (but not all!) are old and the originals looked nothing like what they ended up as.
The big things separating a cult from a religion seem to be time, mainstream acceptance and (typically) the founder being dead. If you’re struggling with the implications of that, and what to do about it… well, welcome to the club.
@Rose
I assume I’m one of the “Hard Headed Atheists” you’re talking about?
@John Smith, the reason “cult” is such a derogatory word is because Christians wanted to be dismissive of other religions.
@eh, whatever, Gardner certainly claimed a lineage from the mists of time and it’s impossible to actually disprove him. The point remains that, yes, people are reviving old religions as systems that speak to them at some fundamental level.
Part of what goes on with “cult” is mixing definitions of the term. Some are much broader, but the broader ones aren’t generally linked to the kinds of cults that give the word the bad reputation.
Then some people use the broader definition where the strict version wouldn’t apply in order to tar those groups by association.
Cult is mostly derogatory these days because of a largely secular movement in the 70s and 80s in response to cults like Jim Jones and other really nasty groups – some extreme versions of Christianity, some not. There’d been earlier usage by more mainstream Christians to target heretical Christian groups, but that didn’t have the same popular culture effect.
@a bunch of people:
I want you to imagine that you get into a time machine and go forward a thousand years and find out that there’s a huge religion based on interpreting Star Wars as literal truth. There’s been Jedi/Sith wars, people argue about why modern force users don’t have the same old magic powers you see in the documentaries (which are recreations several steps removed and only loosely recognizable as the same thing as the originals you saw). George Lucas is hailed as a prophet, and public policy in some counties is based on Star Wars. This includes things like the Jedi order stealing people’s children sometime during the age of 3-6 based on opaque rituals and tests not widely explained to the public, banning of certain emotions because they risk pulling people to the dark side, and research into lasers and spaceflight are banned because lightsabers are holy weapons that shouldn’t be recreated by science and the only reason or culture ended up here was to escape the dangers of FTL travel.
When you point out how ludicrous the whole thing is because it’s based on a bunch of media that’s indistinguishable from fiction, people tell you that they’re ancient stories that people find meaning in, so they must hold some truth and should be given respect. And implicitly, they’re implying that all the suffering caused by this interpretation of a fictional creation as literal truth is justified.
This is about how people are sounding here, and this is the issue with thinking that you have to believe a religion to have reasonable thoughts on religion. I don’t believe most people who sincerely believe a religion can mentally pull themselves out and consider a world where their religion is fiction. And by implication, most tend to elevate anything with the label “religion” above other fandoms surrounding fiction, treating them as special. It’s something even written into many laws, that as soon as something is called a religion, it instantly gets a bunch of legal protections that don’t apply to any comparable non-religious organizations or beliefs.
And I will fully acknowledge that fiction can be powerful and hold incredible meaning. Star Wars, Star Trek, Avatar: TLA, Mass Effect, Fire Emblem, Pokemon, Legend of Zelda, and many many more fictional creations have incredible cultural power and mean a great deal to me personally. Yet we don’t offer a bunch of respect to people who believe these stories are literal history or divine guidance that trumps scientific research and should guide public policy.
If religions only acted as fandoms, few people would have a problem with them. I certainly wouldn’t. But they don’t. They’re treated like fandoms half the time to justify why so many coexist and how believers of different stuff can get along. Then the other half, they’re treated as special vessels of truth that deserve unique protections, are owed special respect, and are elevated above criticism.
Once, I got in a discussion about religion and faith with a stranger in a train, we got a nice and peaceful discussion, but at one time we hit off a wall (called faith): he said, “when you’ll die, and meet the creator, and he/it says you done wrong, what are you going to say” me “I’m going to say, you don’t exist, get out of my coffin”.
I think we got half an hour of discussion just on this point, repeting the same ever and ever.
I couldn’t see behind the wall (god), and he couldn’t see behind the wall (the absence of it).
It’s a bit like trying to imagine a what a sounds smells, you can’t (unless you try some kind of false equivalence).
I would not be more open minded by knowing that G minor smells like goat cheese mixed with the 45th sort of Heinz Ketchup’s bottle cap, nor even more knowledgeable.
And he would not be more tolerant by being able to convey what a music smells.
So in definitive, I will accept that music might smell something for some people, if in return, nothing has to be done or accepted based on the fact music smells.
[If religion wasn’t an accident of time and geography, you’d see older defunct religions popping up all over the place, inspired by the same thing as the original believers.]
We see that all the time. I mean Liz brought up how Christianity is full of stuff similar to older religions. We also get pagan revivals. Hinduism is like 8000 years old.
Christianity is not full of stuff from older religions by accident – it cannibalized beliefs to convince people to convert.
Like seriously, this is well known. Christmas falling at the end of the year is Yule, and Easter is from the pagan Eoster.
No, I don’t mean that old religions wouldn’t still exist or wouldn’t change. I mean that ancient religions like the Norse gods, the Greek pantheon, the Aztec gods, etc. would be springing up everywhere, not just in a few small instances. There are so many religions that were extremely dominant within their culture that are mainly remembered in history books and/or viewed as fictional mythology.
The rise, fall, and changing of religions, including small revivals, isn’t consistent with the claimed fundamental truth religion is finding. Instead, it’s consistent with how the rise and fall of cultures work. Or in a more modern microcosm of the same pattern, fandoms. Various fandoms focused on a certain piece of fiction, a style of art, or whatever all rise and fall in popularity. Older fandoms pop up again in small revivals, but tend not to return to the same level of dominance as they once might have had. Despite this, people tend to like the stuff they got into as a kid, most of which was delivered by their parents. And so on. Joyce even made this observation earlier in the comic, though at the time she wrote it off.
Hinduism in what form? 8000 is a guess; depending on what you mean by Hinduism, 6000, 3000, 2500 and even lower numbers of years have some evidence behind them.
Things like the Greek pantheon, the Norse stuff, the Aztec stuff, etc. aren’t accurate representations of what people believed, though. They’re the result of modern reconstructions as best as we can. The most likely reason Zeus fucked everyone, for instance, is because every city-state wanted to claim lineage from the king of the gods to prove how special they were. It wasn’t something they all got together and agreed was true. During the Mycenaean period (i.e., during the time depicted in the Iliad), Poseidon was probably the king of the gods and Hades probably didn’t exist. And that’s without getting into Orphic and Eleusisian Mysteries where Orpheus and Persephone are the main objects of veneration.
So you can’t really extrapolate that they aren’t reviving everywhere all the time from the vague things we know about what they wrote down thousands of years ago. Like, all you’re actually saying is that people aren’t claiming the same things that other people wrote down, and shit, that describes America and the Constitution, too.
POV: You are Joyce. Your parents love you, and they love your siblings, even when they have to punish. They rarely have to punish you. God loves you, and you obey God by obeying your parents. Other people, the Worldly, don’t understand God’s love, and so they sin against God and cause themselves harm in this world and the next. You wish they wouldn’t. When you meet the Worldly, you wish really super hard that they wouldn’t, because you don’t want them to go to hell. Your best friend is gay, but wait! it turns out there are a bunch of loopholes in the Real Literal Scripture that mean she might not be sinning. God still loves her. Her dad
lovesabuses her so much that he uses potentially-deadly force to try to kidnap her, hurting others in the process, twice. Your parents don’t love each other, and they’ve been fighting in secret this whole time. You don’t feel God when you pray. It turns out, obedience isn’t the same as love, and it can get you killed, and your mom really, really does not agree. The earth is billions of years old. Your parents and your church can’t be trusted. God didn’t love you because God doesn’t exist.POV: You are Becky, young and realizing slowly that your feelings for your best friend from homeschool group/church are A Sin. But you prayed about it, and you feel better. God loves you. Your dad is a jerk a lot, and has rules that feel arbitrary, and it seems like your mom always goes along with him, which makes you feel weird. But you prayed about it; everything’s okay, God loves you. Your mom is dead, and you don’t understand why she did this, why she left you, but you know she’s in heaven now; everything is going to be okay. Your dad tried to kidnap you and aimed a gun in the air to force your friend to let you go, but God loves you, and God is bigger than your dad, and everything’s going to be okay. You feel God when you pray; you feel loved. Your parents are dead, but God loves you, and everyone, and you’ll see them in Heaven.
I’ve just been thinking about this a lot? Because once this fight started, this moment felt inevitable, but it still sucks a lot. These kids have both been through so damn much.
What, why was this a reply, dammit. Not intentional.
That was a wonderful summing up/explaining POVs.
Thank you. 🙂
Well done
Thanks for this write-up.
Yeah, that’s pretty much why I’m still vaguely Catholic. Like Billy’s explanation as to why Ruth is a Maple fan
Becky’s attitude towards her faith seems to be “God is love and loves me and that’s the core of my faith and almost everything else I’m open to learning about”, which is not only not what the cult she was raised in is about, it is antithetical to it. Literally the only things her faith and the cult she was raised in have in common is a belief in a particular god (albeit with radically different views on what that god is like) and they both call themselves Christian. So many of her beliefs would not have been acceptable in her childhood environment- and control was key.
While that may be true, it might be hard for Joyce to see it that way if she links everything to do with religion to the cult right now. Becky might be able to realize the difference (hard to tell what her inner mindset is, or if she just doesn’t want to lose anything else), but it is very possible with Joyce that it is too closely linked to the trauma right now. This could especially be the case if something is going on with Joyce’s mom and family drama still. Religion might be reminding Joyce of her mom’s and her church’s reaction, making it more directly linked than with Becky, who might be able to separate it more into just being her father.
I’d agree EXCEPT we have not seen Becky in any other long-term religious environment except the cult.
Per what I’ve heard from Patreon, Becky apparently started attending Sierra’s church pre-timeskip. Sierra herself is openly bisexual and polyamorous, so that’s a definite tick against it being a fundie group like Joyce and Becky were raised in.
In Becky’s case… yeah, her religion really is her cult programming, or what’s left of it. Its her decision which parts she does and doesn’t want to cast off, but its pretty undeniable the cult put it there to begin with.
But that’s a problem for a lot of people – do you reject wholesale that which you gained from a known corrupted source, or do you sift through it to find out if any of what they gave you has actual value and wasn’t just substanceless lies, is there anything you can still use?
The danger of the first path is that you absolutely will throw away things that would have been valuable to you – and a lot of what you should have thrown away will still linger, hidden, unexamined. The danger of the second is that you might end up embracing things that seem appealing but really were just created to fuck you over, trapping you in a less shitty but still pretty shitty outcome, especially if you are the sort of person to cling to things from your past for stability because you’ll be picking the bits that offer the most comfort over everything else.
Another example of Joyce’s all-or-nothing literalism vs Becky’s interpretation.
Oof, they didn’t resolve anything
I think Joyce is going to have to do a lot more working through her own issues before there can be any positive resolution.
Also, Beckie would need to be willing to actually listen to Joyce on the subject. They both need to do a lot of reflection and be very careful in how they approach the subject when they eventually do finally attempt reconciliation. Joyce needs to figure out A, what her position actually is, and B, how to articulate that position. Beckie needs to be willing to accept that Joyce’s beliefs differ from her own and support Joyce in her following her own path. Right now neither party has fulfilled their win conditions (assuming reconciliation is the ultimate goal).
Joyce is willing to listen to Dina and her issues with Dorothy aren’t related to atheism.
But both Dina and Dorothy treat Becky with respect, even if they don’t agree with her beliefs.
Joyce was literally mocking all theists and saying anyone spiritual is an idiot.
I think Becky would actually be a lot more able to support Joyce on her path to atheism than Joyce realizes.
But now Joyce has to be able to support Becky on Becky’s path to faith.
(And seriously Joyce needs to get over herself. You think having a meltdown because you believe the same things as Becky’s girlfriend is gonna go over well?)
“meltdown”? “that feels wrong” is hardly a meltdown. Just a moment of distraction from a sudden realization that she’s now the same as someone she’s always been in conflict with.
But generally, I agree. Joyce seems to be having at least as much trouble accepting that Becky is still religious as Becky is accepting that Joyce isn’t. More so, going just by their explicit words.
Considering context of the situation, Joyce was partly saying what she said because Liz was egging her own and partly because her own bitterness is making her, Joyce, feel like an idiot for ever believing in the first place. She hasn’t gotten to a point yet where she can articulate that properly but that’s my reading of it. I don’t think Joyce is malicious enough to truly belive all belivers are idiots but bitterness can warp your perception of yourself. It’s difficult to admit that when you’re trying to defend yourself from a (rightfully) angry friend though…
It’s weird to me how few people appear willing to view this through what seems the most obvious perspective. Joyce was engaging in bad-faith badmouthing, spurred on by her desire to appear ‘cool’, until she began to get angry; her and Becky’s responses here have not been coolly rational declarations of their stances, but rather two people both feeling rightfully indignant, digging in on stances that would ordinarily be approached in more gentle terms, were it not for the call and response of anger.
Now Joe needs to comfort Joyce.
Fuck yeah he does.
Joyce needs to get over herself? I’m sure you mean Becky needs to get over herself. The rant Becky overheard wasn’t about her, it was about Joyce, but Becky made it 100% about her and fuck Joyce. And while she’s getting over things, her treatment of Dorothy has been inexcusable. Fuck Becky.
Considering how cold the ground is in winter, I’m surprised Joyce managed to dig herself that deep.
she found a deep pit of snow
Hey, Becky. Stop taking a page out of Jennifer’s book. She’s an asshole. If you don’t want to see or speak to Joyce, fine, but you do not get to tell her where to go or what to do.
Joyce literally just blamed Becky’s religion for her own casting out and her loss on faith on Becky. So…uh, Joyce, stop being your mother.
“Why did YOU disappoint ME?”
That’s a take.
I mean, she’s not true but that’s the way Becky is going to take it.
Joyce: You taught me faith is bad!
Becky: I don’t want you to think faith is bad!
I think Joyce is the one being the asshole here, not Becky.
Meh, I don’t think either one is really being an asshole. Joyce avoided telling her friend about her feelings about religion. Joyce covered it up to avoid hurting her friend or exposing herself. It was exposed and became a much bigger deal than it had to be. It’s an obvious character flaw, but I’ve never seen her do anything from actual malice.
Joyce is stupid. Joyce doesn’t learn quickly enough from her mistakes, so she keeps repeating them. Joyce causes her own problems. I relate.
Nah, friends have conflicts, too. Being friends with people ain’t about it always being endless sunshine and buckets. Conflicts happen and they aren’t always pleasant at first.
thats a take
They were both talking past each other because they’ve got nearly 20 years of religious indoctrination poisoning the both of them, but only Becky’s very last line strays into “You’re now going to inconvenience yourself for me.”
Nice try, though.
All I can say is… oof
They could both be handling this a little better and honestly I have to wonder if this is what drives them apart. Still Joyce has yet to properly apologize so the ball is still in her court.
So who thinks she is going to skip class again?
I think Joyce is going to go back in, have a talk with her friends, realize how she should have handled it, then go try to talk to Becky by staying outside of the classroom because she is to scared to go in, might try to send somebody else to talk instead of her before going to talk herself. Becky might brush her off for a bit before Dina talks her down (they might have a tiny fight themselves as Becky might think Dina is taking a side). Eventually after a bit of agonizing over it they will both agree to talk about whats going on and try to fix their friendship or at the very least not hate each other.
Ooh, that’s a hard prediction. Joyce shies away from confrontation and doing a repeat doesn’t feel right for her. On the other hand, she feels bad enough about skipping class.
I think she’ll ask Joe, and Joe will tell her to skip.
I would like them to skip together and go get pizza.
I think that’s genuinely in the cards.
They can find their old booth at Galasso’s and have fond memories of Mike.
Also, it’s still pretty early in the term, add/drop is a thing. If I were Joyce, I’d honestly be thinking ‘there are other science classes that will fill STEM requirements, or a different section of this one.
It’s the poli-sci class. She could drop it, but that seems a bit extreme, unless she really does want to cut Becky out of her life entirely.
I’d say that it’s not “they could have been handling this a bit better,” but rather that “it’s possible that they could have handled this a bit better but it would be unrealistic for them to do so given how new Joyce’s atheismis to them” (Joyce: a few days or weeks, and Becky:a few minutes).
So i’m pleased with how this is being depicted. Nothing takes you out of a story quite like breaking the willing suspension of disbelief.
I don’t think Joyce’s atheism is that new to her. I think she’s been starting to fall into it since before the timeskip.
She’s been losing her faith for awhile now certainly, but she’s still struggling to come to terms with it. Her realization that she believes the same things as Dina last strip was new, for example. Or her only really letting go of creationism in a strip with Joe a little while back.
The letting go of creationism with Joe, and I will not let this go, was also yesterday in-strip time, same as Bonnie’s birthday party. Joyce realized she was an atheist enough to realize she didn’t have to believe in creationism yesterday. Small wonder she didn’t feel ready to talk to Becky about it at any point before Bonnie’s birthday, and didn’t want to bring it up then.
It’s one of those no win situations. It’s perfectly reasonable she wasn’t ready to talk about it and she’s under no obligation to. It’s also perfectly reasonable for Becky to be hurt that she didn’t, even without today’s mockery.
Eeeyup. And Joyce did in fact have good reasons for not bringing it up to Becky as she was realizing it – this misreading of what faith means to each other’s been going on the whole dang time, and Becky’s always gotten a little miffed that Joyce needs to reconcile the Bible being literally true with gay people being okay (totally understandable) or that she needs Biblical literalism to be the case because if original sin’s not real, then how can a loving God exist? (Which is the moment I hope Becky comes back to after the initial anger and shock and hurt start to subside.)
But all of that meant she was really prime to get wound up with Liz, and she genuinely hadn’t started thinking about what she thinks of religion as a whole until then… so she fell into the Insufferable Newbie Atheist Trap Card. I hope Dorothy or Sarah challenges that one once she’s had some time to cry about it. (I’m imagining Sarah: ‘Joyce, I KNOW you don’t think all atheists are smarter than religious people.’ ‘Maybe I do! How can you be so sure?’ ‘Walky’s an atheist, too.’ *Beat panel* ‘Okay, we’ve fixed her from THAT logical fallacy, now let’s talk about what you DO believe now.’)
Joyce’s atheism is months old, yeah. The clearest turning point is probably when she skipped church.
Dammit Joyce, I thought you were smart. But tbh I probably would have said the same thing. But dammit, Joyce.
It can be hard to think of the right thing to say in a moment like this, so I can’t blame Joyce.
I legit don’t know how Joyce could’ve done this conversation worse! I am excited to see how Becky gets on without “Joyce’s best friend” being one of her defining character traits. Maybe this will end that dumb fake rivalry with Dorothy too
That would make my day if she gave up her Dorothy rivalry.
The Willis Taketh Away, but The Willis Also Giveth?
The Willis taketh and the Willis also taketh away.
If the Willis giveth not, then thou must explainest by which very measure we hath received the fine and indeed wonderful ship SalDan!
The giving of the thing is only the first step towards the thing being taken away.
But he doth give, then!
Hath he not given Mike to all our mothers, if only for a while?
The Willis lendth temporarily.
@clif: Nay, for he said unto us, only for nickel shall thy mother and Mike meet.
I know SalxDanny is safe because I want Lucy to be happy with Walky and I know he’s bound to fuck that up. So the Willis Giveth, the Willis taketh away
Well, at least for the honeymoon phase.
They say it’s an ill wind indeed that blows no good. And that bit got old a long time ago.
Don’t.
Don’t give me hope.
I don’t know if she did that bad. I mean bad timing for how Becky found out, but at this point she’s just being honest how she feels so that’s not wrong in of itself. Her expectations of Becky to see things similarly is wrong but the way she expressed was her not understanding which is how she feels.
Becky on the other hand is perfectly fine being upset with what she’s seen earlier. What she’s missing would maybe be resolved in a longer conversation. Giving her the benefit of doubt in the chaotic situation she doesn’t know that all this is Joyce struggling with the losing of her faith.
One way in which Joyce could have handled it better is by being less confrontational in how she was presenting her position. Like, she could have at least tried to de-escalate Becky’s anger long enough to have an actual conversation instead of a fight, but instead she chose to further escalate the conflict with basically every thing she said after her initial attempt at apology was rebuffed.
Do you honestly believe that two random teenagers are likely going ng to have any understanding of de-escalation tactics, and experience with applying those said tactics, in the midst of rising emotions? It’s fairly unusual to respond to anger with anything *except* for anger, which is exactly why, after a half-hearted attempt (two or three actually) at apology failed, Joyce did the rather common switch to getting defensive.
Commenting on fiction is kinda like going “I told you so” to people who don’t exist.
You can be honest how you feel and still be wrong. She seems to honestly feel Becky is an idiot for staying religious.
If she’s not ready to lose her faith she’s certainly not willing to lose her Dorothy rivalry!
Maybe if she compared her situation to Becky’s coming out
Possible titles for next books:
– I’ll Leave You A Phantom
– Trial and Sarah
Oh noes, Willis wants to kill somebody.
From the previews “I’ll Leave You A Phantom” seems Amber-centric, so probably unpacking some of the grief related to the last character kill.
Also since Sarah is a law student, I’d bet on “Trial and Sarah” being a mock trial. Real Trials would take much too long for this comic’s pacing.
Mock Trial of the Whiteboard Ding Dong Bandit is in session!
We’re going to find out who killed the last Koala bear.
I’ll leave you a phantom sounds Halloweeny too, so maybe some flashbacks to something that happened then?
Clearly the next chapter, I’ll Leave You A Phantom, will feature the return of Ghost-Mike. Who is no longer possessing Jennifer’s body.
Absolutely not. There is one ghost Mike in Amber’s head who is not real. Then there is the real ghost Mike who is possessing the real Jennifer and the real Booster back and forth. Then there is the live Mike who is in witness protection and sometimes replaces Jennifer or Booster, whichever is not currently possessed by ghost Mike.
So there are three Mike’s in all. We call this the doctrine of the trinity.
Mike last came for Blaine’s mom years ago (in terms of when that strip was published), but some adherents still believe he will return to pass out nickels to a myriad of moms once more.
We call this the Second Coming.
So, Mike is Xehanort?
Or Sora… yeah no I can’t say that with a straight face, Mike is DEFINITELY Xehanort.
Well, there isn’t much for me to say here other than I think they’re having two separate conversations and have been talking past each other for a long time in some ways.
YUP
I wish we could upvote these
and here I was really hoping this would be when they’d both figure that out and start talking about that, but I guess this isn’t the time after all. Still too raw.
this seems a good description of the issue.
Will you stop being reasonable about this? This *is* a comment section, you know.
This went as well as it could have, considering the corcumstances. So yay?
So she ended her apology for insulting Becky by saying it was Becky’s fault she lost her faith. Joyce is a good friend.
I don’t think that’s at all what she means. Her first word balloon in panel 1 is all setup for her question in the second balloon.
Joyce is saying that not being able to reconcile what she’d been raised to believe with what in her heart she knew was right when it came to Becky being a lesbian is what first made her doubt her faith, and that she doesn’t understand how it didn’t have that same effect on Becky’s faith as well
She doesn’t get why Becky seemed to adapt he faith so easily, while her own faith shattered violently and painfully just trying to reconcile it with being a good person
Joyce believes religion is meant to provide reassurance of how the world works.
Becky believes its meant to be a rock against the darkness.
Similar enough to be mistaken for one another but very different.
Yeah, this exactly. Becky and Joyce were never on the same page about what they were getting out of it, and they’re learning that in a pretty harsh way.
That’s not what she said at all. She said her love for Becky caused her to realize the cognitive dissonance continuing to believe would cause. The love for her friend outweighed the belief that being gay was inherently immoral and evil.
That bit isn’t an insult. The “why aren’t you letting go” bit, maybe, but the bit about Becky being the catalyst for Joyce losing faith, that’s basically just true.
Becky: “Hey Joyce, I’m not judging you for being an atheist. Stop being an asshole!”
Joyce: “Becky, stop judging me for being an atheist! How are you even still a christian, they hate you you know!”
I’ve loved this past week of strips. Many thinks to the author! This fight was just the right amount of horrible.
Becky’s the one who called Joyce’s faith a superiority complex so… yeah, there’s some judging going on in that direction too.
I mean, Joyce is incredibly judgemental here.
I mean they both are wrong here, Becky in her defense did walk in on that conversation.
As for Joyce she’s saying she doesn’t understand that’s not the same as judging.
Yes, after Joyce specifically judged Becky’s girlfriend. She didn’t just say it out of the blue.
It’s harsh, but like, the literal entire history of the comic is almost entirely about how Joyce’s faith was about superiority (and dealing with getting over that). She spent a large amount of time acting like she was better than people because of her religion, then slowly learned to not be as outwardly judgy.
Then, after her crisis of faith, she easily fell back onto that crutch as a way to reconcile *not* being religious. It’s not to say that I think joyce is an inherently awful person or anything, but saying her relationship to faith is entertwined with superiority over people who don’t share it is very easy to prove.
It really isn’t.
It wasn’t about “I am better than you”, it is “well of course the sky sea is real, the bible says so.”
Like, Mary thinks she’s better than everyone, because she has faith in God and then that faith is something she can decide to follow at her leisure while still proclaiming herself as the objectively correct avatar of divine vengeance. Mary believes so strongly in her own righteousness that she has found the true interpretation of God’s words and can accept and dismiss them however she wants, and unlike Becky who does so because it’s unimportant and factual evidence contradicts it, as in Becky herself is kind of the least involved in what part of the bible is wrong, Mary’s faith in her interpretation is one she’s decided is objectively correct and that she was able to decide it is the important part here.
Joyce didn’t have faith, she had rules. God told her that fire-breathing dinosaurs were hunted to extinction in the early days of this 6000 years old Earth and she accepted that the way I accept that I need to breathe air and drink water to not die.
She believed in facts and then found out they were actually not facts the way one would react if numbers stopped working.
You forgot the part where Becky took a general statement personally and forced Joyce up against a metaphorical wall to get her to agree it was personal or go back on her new beliefs. Becky is allowed to be hurt, but that’s extremely manipulative and far worse than stating your feelings on a particular belief in a rude fashion.
You also missed the gaslighting from Becky where she blames Joyce for believing the bad parts of their upbringing instead of blaming the beliefs and their source.
Uh no, actually insulting everyone who believes X insults Becky who also believes X.
And don’t forget that you are working on a false assumption about religion that erases a fuckton of minority religions and reconstructionism just because you can’t stand the idea of the divine being real.
How does “Do you really think I’m an idiot because I believe in God?” force “Joyce up against a metaphorical wall to get her to agree it was personal or go back on her new beliefs”?
Unless of course her new belief includes Becky being an idiot.
You can think and express feelings about a belief without having personal beef with every single person who believes it. And no, I don’t think you have to carefully phrase every single negative thing you ever say about said belief to make sure the hypothetical believer is never brought into it. Especially not when you’re in private among friends who share those feelings, venting about them.
If I got mad at every single person who ever said something mean in private about vegans, atheists, leftists, or any other group I’m in, and confronted those people to make them declare those things directly at me personally, I would have no friends. If you honestly believe every single friend you have doesn’t think a single negative thing about you or any of your beliefs, you must be a very privileged person.
Which is not the question I asked. All Joyce had to say was, “No I don’t”. There’s no metaphorical wall.
But she didn’t. She made it pretty clear in her response that, although she’s not going to say “yes” outright, she does think that Becky’s an idiot.
It’s not a trap, it’s an insecure friend asking for reassurance and not getting it.
I am actually begging you to explain how Becky has tried to make Joyce question her own perception of reality bc if you can’t I’m taking the word “gaslighting” away from you
Becky’s not making Joyce question her faith so much as assigning values to her like “you just thought you were better than everyone else, so that’s why losing your faith is your fault” that Joyce doesn’t believe in the slightest, but Becky sure thinks so.
“Gaslighting” is thrown around REALLY liberally these days for some reason; people have begun to use it as a synonym for “lying”, and it irks me.
She’s framing Joyce’s crisis of faith as being rooted in personal character flaws where Joyce is the only one at fault when Joyce doesn’t see it that way at all. When Joyce states clearly why she’s lost her faith: because she cares for other people, Becky runs off because it’s so contrary to the version that Becky is throwing in her face. Becky is saying “No, you don’t actually care about people. You were just foolish for believing the wrong parts were important and judgmental so of course you judged people based on religion. Those are *your* fault, not your faith’s fault.”
How is that not an attempt to undermine Joyce’s perception of religion and her new beliefs? Go look up the signs of gaslighting. Many of them describe Joyce’s behaviors since the time skip to a T. Doubting her feelings and reality, questioning her judgements, feeling vulnerable, feeling alone, feeling confused, wondering what’s wrong with her, etc.
I suppose you can argue these aren’t all rooted in Becky’s behavior alone, but Becky is participating by shifting blame, minimizing Joyce’s feelings, and shifting the focus of the conversation away from points Joyce makes. And you can’t argue that Joyce hasn’t been on the receiving end of every aspect of gaslighting from her religious upbringing as a whole.
If this is your first time you’ve seen parallels drawn between religious indoctrination and abusive relationships, then I’d suggest looking it up sometime. The parallels run alarmingly deep.
not even trying to be rude about it, be more precise in how you use the term gaslighting. it like genuinley has a lot of weight
Is this is really the first time you’ve heard of religious gaslighting or seen comparisons between religious indoctrination and abusive relationships in general?
Because I’m not using the term lightly. People just think I am because they assume I have the same feelings about religion as they do, so I can’t possibly be suggesting that religion can lead to such terrible behavior, right?
It can and does. Many ex-theists have stories and experiences that aren’t that different from survivors of domestic abuse. This isn’t making light of domestic abuse. It’s pointing out just how bad religion can be and often is.
And in so doing you’re revealing that you’re not considering these particular characters and their actions, but just using them as props for the evils of religion. Becky is gaslighting Joyce because that’s what religious people do, not because of any thing specific Becky has done.
Of course religion can lead to terrible behavior. Of course many ex-theists have abuse stories and experiences. As do, for example, Joyce and Becky. I doubt any regular readers of this comic are unaware that religion can lead to terrible things. If so they have bigger complaints with the comic than this week’s strips.
Some ex-theists though generalize their bad experiences and extend them to all religion.
I’m pretty sure Becky is judging Joyce for losing her faith when Becky didn’t lose hers despite the troubles they’ve both been through in the past few months.
Not at all. If Becky is judging Joyce it’s for acting like a jerk by making derogatory statements about all religious people – which includes but is not limited to Becky. The presence or absence Joyce’s faith was not a target of criticism
Thogh I’ll grant Joyce’s past faith was criticized for focusing on seeing oneself as superior to others which is both an element not inherent in Becky’s faith and an element fully deserving of criticism whenever it appears.
Honestly? This is fine. It hits me right in the gut and makes me wanna hug them both, but ultimately I think they’re gonna be okay.
I’ve seen the questions everybody’s been heatedly arguing about in the comments for this arc:
“Whose fault is this? Which of them is wrong? Which of them won here?”
But this isn’t a debate or a contest, and they’re not a pair of frictionless spheres in a moral vacuum. They’re best friends who care deeply about each other who’ve gotten into a fight that’s left them both of them feeling hurt and angry
Joyce hiding that she’d become an atheist from Becky was totally understandable, and she had every right to do so. Best friends or not, if she wasn’t ready to share that with her, she wasn’t ready. Unfortunately, due to the big part that Christianity had always played in their relationship (which is a strong motive to worry about telling her), putting off telling Becky meant faking it in the meantime was unavoidable. Joyce’s venting was also totally understandable for someone who’d bought into her oppressive fundamentalist upbringing and suffered because of it. She’d wisely tried to avoid saying that kinda stuff around people who’d be upset by it. She never would have wanted Becky to hear those things. I also don’t think she’s mad that Becky still believes, so much as she just can’t understand how. She doesn’t understand that while they shared the same religious upbringing, Becky didn’t fully buy into it the way Joyce did, so she doesn’t understand how going through (roughly) the same series of traumatic events strengthened Becky’s faith, while breaking her own. I wouldn’t be surprised if she resents Becky for that without realizing it, given how important her faith had been to her for her whole life. The inability to see why they reacted so differently would not doubt be frustrating at the very least.
And on Becky’s part, no seeking Joyce out after hearing she’d skipped class wasn’t stalking. It wasn’t even intrusive. It was extremely normal behavior for friends in college, especially where one has no clue the other is specifically avoiding her. She hadn’t meant to pry, she just wanted to see why Joyce was skipping class suddenly, which is very out of character for her and totally merits her friends checking up on her. And no, Joyce wasn’t mocking Becky herself specifically, but when you suddenly find your best friend mocking the religion you – up until that very moment – thought you both shared? Yeah it’s gonna feel personal. Especially if you – like Becky very clearly is – are particularly sensitive to rejection. Your mind is absolutely gonna leap to “she’s been hiding that she’s not Christian anymore from me because the insulting things she’s saying are also how she sees ME now and she doesn’t even respect me enough to say it to my face.” It’s not at all how Joyce feels about her, but you can see how that specific fear/hurt got stuck in Becky’s mind
So, the problem here isn’t at all that one of them is bad and wrong, or even badder and wronger than the other. The problem is that they’re hurting and angry, and neither of them really understands the other’s reasons for feeling that way. That’s why the last couple strips have felt to many like the two of them are having totally separate arguments. They’re technically are having the same argument, but they each don’t (yet, hopefully) really understand how the what the other one is saying ties into the matter at hand.
If Becky hadn’t overheard those things, Joyce probably would’ve eventually revealed to Becky she’d stopped believing entirely, and a much calmer and less painful version of this conversation could’ve happened. But she did, and from there onward, this was never going to be resolved in one single conversation/fight.
But, despite that, I would actually say this has gone as well as it could. They’re both still mad and still don’t really get the other’s reasons why, but despite the anger and the yelling, throughout the argument they’ve both finally been pretty open and honest, even if it doesn’t seem like that helped, and they’ve both managed to avoid saying anything deliberately hurtful to make things worse.
The heart of the matter now lies exposed. Some time apart will help them cool off, and hopefully they’ll take some time to reflect on what the other said, and talk things out with their other friends, and in time come to understand each other again and be able to forgive each other. Probably there will be more drama or even fighting before they get there. Maybe their friendship will come out of this changed in some way, but I think they’ll get there
Now that was a good read. I wish I had something more coherent to say or a better way to phrase but I’m not good with words. Just… great write-up.
I said this yesterday: Even though both of them are saying and doing the wrong things, neither of them is Truly Wrong. They’re just kids who are in pain.
This is the take https://youtu.be/HSh73d3TZcA
But seriously their argument really is a mix of initial anger and surprise mixed with longer simmering angst.
I think the key is gonna be Joyce admitting she actually doesn’t think Becky is stupid for believing. She’s just defensive about it here because she feels like Becky’s attacking her atheism.
Truth is, I think she thinks *she’s* stupid for having believed in the past. After all, Becky feels God when SHE prays. But Joyce didn’t. What kept her tethered to Christianity wasn’t a close relationship with God, it was the ideological and theological aspect. Here she is arguing with Becky about evolution happening. Becky says “it doesn’t contradict nothin’ important”, and Joyce immediately goes down a tangent of logic that completely unravels her faith. If X, then Y, then Z. When that broke down for her, there was nothing left underneath.
I think that’s what she feels is the difference between Becky and herself. It’s one thing if you have a strong spiritual connection to your beliefs, but Joyce’s belief was kept afloat by the belief that the Bible was 100% right 100% of the time. Considering how impossible that would be for any text and how a lot of the book doesn’t even make sense under its own logic, it’s not surprising she feels stupid.
I was thinking that too. A lot of this is probably more directed at herself than Becky. Like the comment about Becky’s “jackass father” could also be referencing Joyce’s mother indirectly.
Yeah I mean that whole conversation Becky walked in on was Joyce calling herself dumb for having believed, Becky wasn’t even remotely being targeted. Definitely crossover of Becky’s dad and her Mom and church group as well they essentially enabled him to do everything he did.
Also, the stuff Joyce was saying was heavily influenced by her need to “fit in” with a person she considers to be “cool.” Like, the entire time she was hanging with Sarah’s sister she was deliberately molding her behavior and thus was taking things to extremes, like with the excessive swearing. She saw the “cool kid I wanna emulate” bashing Christians, felt validated in her frustrations, jumped on the bandwagon, got approval from said “cool kid,” and continued to escalate to seek further validation and approval.
That said, I agree that her statements had more to do with her self-view than Becky, but I’d say that was clearly not all it was. She wanted the “cool kid” to like her and thus allowed her behavior to be influenced significantly.
This is a very good summary.
Yep. This was SUCH a well-written sequence.
But yes, also I want to hug them.
Oooh! Yes, this, all the way this. Neither of them is hostilely trying to hurt the other, but in real life our rough edges sometimes hurt our friends because we’re human.
Extremely well-written. Thank you for sharing.
Look, you can’t do this. This comment section is all about picking one character and supporting them completely in any given conflict, mostly by trashing the other. Get on board. Pick a side and tear the other one down, dammit.
Seriously though, very good summary. Both of them have very understandable motivations, even when they’re screwing up.
BEAUTIFUL
Thank you!
Thank you for this. It helped ease the pain. <3
This is an excellent take, Fart Captor!
A virtual A++ to you!
As for Joyce and Becky needing some time apart to process all this, that only seems to confirm my earlier prediction.
It’s gonna be at least a day in-comic before they’re ready to talk to each other about all this.
Things could get rather interesting in the meantime….
Aw, come on, nobody got stabbed? What the hell kinda fight was that?
I guess they left their phones in their rooms.
It’s just one of those days, when ya don’t wanna hang up. Everything is fucked, cell reception sucks. Ya don’t really know why, but ya wanna justify blowin’ someone’s cell up.
Can’t be a stabbing yet, it’s broad daylight. The BIG fights are for nighttime, or sometimes in basements. It’s car chases that occur in the middle of the day.
Finally Joyce starts to let Becky know what it cost her to unconditionally support Becky
Also Becky you do not get to decide what Joyce does
The past week I’ve been wringing my hands going “Oh jeez, oh jeez,” because this entire situation is so fraught and that cut straight through it all. For the absolute cluster this argument was, Joyce still didn’t walk away from it as poorly as Becky did.
Its no surprise really, Joyce is the type of person that’ll go against her parents, faith, church, everything she holds dear for Becky hell she’ll even go hungry to feed her
Becky on the other hand…
Becky is the type of person who aggressively repays debts so that she’s not indebted.
Becky wouldn’t it seems, do the same.
Becky went against her dad multiple times for Joyce. Both in situations which were literally life and death? WTF are you talking about
I’m not sure I can articulate it. I feel that Joyce faced down her internal screaming to say ‘no, Becky is more important than this to me’ and didn’t run away. Becky, on the other hand, seems fine with dropping Joyce like a hot potato after a single outburst and hurt feelings thereafter.
Ultimately, I don’t doubt they’ll reconcile. But Joyce was there for Becky when Becky’s world crumbled, every step that Becky let her see and some Becky didn’t, and now that Joyce’s world can be seen to be crumbling, Becky bails on the first possible step. She might un-bail, I don’t know. But I doubt it.
Yeah that’s a good way of putting it
I mean, there is a *very* big difference between showing up and asking for/clearly needing help and walking in on what seems (from Becky’s perspective) to be the most important person in her life talking shit about her behind her back. Like, it would be one thing if Joyce had had the opportunity to approach Becky about this stuff the way she eventually would have if this never happened and Becky handled it exactly like this, but she felt justifiably insulted and betrayed by what she walked in on, and then Joyce kinda doubled down on the insults and betrayal (again, from Becky’s perspective, not the most accurate way to describe Joyce’s behavior, but also not an invalid one).
Becky isn’t seeing Joyce’s world crumbling though because JOYCE IS NOT LETTING HER SEE IT.
She just sees Joyce openly mocking Becky’s beliefs and condemning Becky for continuing to believe them.
Ah, we’re doing the whole “Becky’s a bad person whose been a TERRIBLE burden on good poor Christian heterosexual Joyce” song and dance again
Just gonna pretend Becky never surrendered to her gun-toting kidnapper dad to protect Joyce, risking her life, safety and freedom in the process. Gonna pretend she never showed up when Blaine kidnapped her friends either. Just so selfish that dang homeless lesbian girl. How dare she not constantly be begging Joyce for forgiveness
I hope I didn’t come across as thinking that. My commentary was only supposed to be on Becky’s last line.
No, my reply was directed at MrSmith. You’re fine
She has been a burden on Joyce and it appears Joyce has reached her breaking point.
Hopefully Becky can look after Joyce the way Joyce looked after Becky
I mean, Becky *does* attempt to enforce the roles *she* has assigned to people on them in a very toxic manner. Obviously some people seem to hyper focus on that and ignore her positive traits/actions and thus make some pointlessly extreme statements about it. Sure, she *has* done good things and has plenty of good qualities, but it is fair to say that she does a lot more taking than giving in most of her relationships, especially with Joyce, and I am most decidedly not talking about the whole taking her in when homeless thing, because that’s helping out a friend in need.
Personally, I do think she is a toxic friend, but I agree that some people here are being rather uncharitable and unfair in how they are interpreting her character/actions in general *and* this scene in particular.
Because risking your life wants to save a person for their safety totally means that you’re now for the rest of eternity allowed to treat them like garbage and abuse them.
They always will owe you because you put your safety on the line. So it doesn’t matter what they’re going through you get to be rude abusive and controlling towards them cuz you risked your life once?
If Joyce was more on point for this argument I’d say because she has fuller context for the part they covered.
Shades of Amber, huh. She spent all summer fighting for Ethan, and it wore her down to the point that she needed time away from him at the start of the strip.
I can’t begin to imagine the toll it took on Joyce
Joyce told Becky, it’s all true or none of it is. If evolution is real, there’s no Eden, no original sin, no reason for Jesus to die on the cross. If being gay is allowed, none of the morality rules matter. Becky grew up knowing that most people picked and chose, because her parents were very visible hypocrites, so she has flexibility. Joyce’s faith was strong, but brittle, and Becky should have seen the cracks long ago, since she put most of them there.
It’s funny, I recently watched a video about what heat does to concrete. And the biggest takeaway? Those cracks aren’t really visible from the outside. It’s not until you apply pressure that the damn thing explodes and, examining the debris, you find evidence of what happened.
Joyce is a Diamond, Becky is a Fusion.
Joyce is confused that Becky’s faith was a comfort in a time of persecution.
Joyce is very much about being a Roman and condemning the heretics.
Becky is very much about being eaten by lions and being on the cross.
For me it’s the story of Joseph and of the Holy Mother that gets me through a lot.
It’s honestly quite beautiful to see how women are reclaiming the female power in Christianity and religion in general.
I’m not Christian mind you. Firmly theist, but not Christian.
Hate to break it to you, but only one of these two made sacrifices for the other, and it wasn’t Becky.
Yes Becky never willingly surrendered herself to her incredibly abusive gun toting father, effectively submitting herself to conversion therapy, to keep Joyce safe
Oh, wait…
The only reason Joyce was in that situation was because she decided to place herself between the gun-toting maniac and Becky.
Wow, just loved this explanation.
I guess Becky forgot when Joyce basically told her that if one aspect of her faith is wrong, then all of it is.
This hurts me… I really hope somebody sits Joyce down and forces her to understand what she is doing to Becky and how she should have handled this situation. Joyce isn’t stupid, and she is normally so kind and caring about others, even more so for Becky, even if all that talk before she knew Becky was there was all about her, and she is still trying to accept everything, it just feels so out of left field for her to be taking it out on the person she adores most…
I really hope they can forgive each other and be friends again…
I do, I fell sad about it, Joyce and Becky got a great history since the begining of DoA…
I think the best thing for them would be to stop being best friends and start being friends.
I think they should drop all the way to strangers, then friends, and then maybe best friends again.
Joyce cannot imagine any kind of Christianity beyond what she was raised in.
Becky made her own Christianity. Which is probably a lot truer to the original text.
Which is funny given Joyce is a Biblical scholar.
That happens when you’ve got somebody constantly reading over your shoulder, with a “well ACKTSHEWALLY what that ReAlLy MeAnS is…” ready for every line.
Oof, not sure I would call Joyce a biblical scholar. I think having the whole set of approved books memorized, in one translation, because they’re a literal perfect truth, is exactly the opposite of scholarship. It removes your ability to think critically about the texts, how they were culturally formed, and how much of them is back-and-forth arguments. Joyce knew different people argued about the Bible and its “seeming contradictions,” but hadn’t internalized, say, the fact that there is an ongoing debate about immigration in a significant part of the OT, with a heavy “can outsiders convert?” undercurrent. Because it all Literally Happened, rather than being a series of texts by a series of authors with agendas.
Tldr, if you think the important part of Jonah is arguing over whether or not it’s possible to be swallowed by a great fish/whale and survive three days (or does it count as a miracle), you miss the part where it’s actually about repentance and forgiveness and bitterness.
Aight I’m just gonna write it here one time
Joyce is saying that she loved Becky so much that the inerrant facts of divine providence that dictated human morality and existence itself were dogshit when stacked up to her. Joyce is not saying that Becky being sad and gay destroyed her faith, Joyce is saying that if there were a mathematical formula that proved the inherent immorality of homosexuality, Joyce would kill math with a gun.
Becky is hearing this as Joyce taking ownership of Becky’s struggles to bash on something that Becky holds as the ultimate proof of God’s love for her working through every miracle Becky’s had since running away: Joyce saving her life. Becky feels that she is being blamed for something she views as a deep, abiding failure on Joyce’s part.
I think I’d go even further.
Joyce doesn’t believe Becky believes in something stupid.
Joyce believes Becky believes in something EVIL.
Which is so much worse.
More fundamentally: Joyce and Becky have always had similar moral principles and values, but very different beliefs. Joyce had to jettison her religious beliefs because they conflicted with her values and principles in an irreconcilable way. Becky hasn’t ever felt that conflict because she didn’t have the church rules tied to her concept of faith like Joyce does.
Neither Becky nor Joyce fully appreciate that when they’re talking about faith, they’re using the same words but talking about very different concepts.
Joyce thinks Becky believes something evil because she used to.
Becky hasn’t ever held the same idea of faith as Joyce. For Joyce it’s about structure, rules and a way to know her place in the world. It maybe was harsh sometimes but hey that’s the rules and the way of it and people have the chance to do right, don’t they?
For Becky it’s always been about comfort, love and a way to find meaning in her pain.
Joyce’s concept of god is an authoritarian disciplinarian. An abusive prick who gets you thinking their manipulation and control is love (kind of like her mom, tbh). Becky’s is nurture and comfort incarnate. Kind of like how she thinks of her own mom.
& Tbh until they realize that each have conceptualised faith very differently, I don’t see religion talk ending up in anything but a shouting match.
Again, this.
I was hoping that they’d come to that realization in this scene, but… guess not.
I don’t think it’s really fair to read any details into Becky’s interpretation of that outburst except that it didn’t convince her to stay.
I do agree that that’s what Joyce meant.
Last strip Becky blamed Joyce’s newfound lack of faith on Joyce’s personal failings. That Joyce’s faith was based in lording superiority, and that Joyce being unfaithful is a deep personal failing on her part.
Becky and Joyce have been ascribing their own interpretation of faith onto the other, that obviously you think the bible consists of the inerrant facts of God/something you leap through to find the important stuff like God loving me and not touching boobs, and I know you think this because my interpretation of our religious upbringing (that we both developed in the face of constant trauma) is the one you grew up with too.
No she said Joyce’s faith shouldn’t have been based on being superior to others after Joyce made a comment about Dina indicating she felt superior. It was relevant.
Yeah that’s because Dina and Joyce hated each other’s guts and two months ago thought the other was outrageously stupid and wrong about the universe.
As in, within a conversation where these two are saying the same words with different meanings, Joyce just realized she thinks things that used to be objectively wrong. I won’t say she does or does not think Dina was an idiot so much that Dina was someone who was wrong about the existence of God because Joyce had Facts and Logic, much like how Dina thinks Joyce is someone who was wrong about the existence of God because Dina has facts
No she didn’t blame anything. Becky has shown ZERO signs of issue with Joyce’s atheism and purely issues with Joyce acting like an asshole.
She went from sitting on her high horse about how Right she is as a Christian to sitting on her high horse about how Right she is as an atheist.
That feels too literal a read on a conversation where for three strips now both of them have been talking past each other.
(also blaming someone for losing faith kinda feels like having an issue with their atheism)
Besides, is Becky right just because she says so? What makes Becky right?
And there it is. The central irony of this whole conflict laid bare.
Joyce cared so much about Becky’s wellbeing that she lost her faith in prioritizing it– and put a wall between herself and Becky in the process.
Like, Joyce is blaming Becky way more than she needs to, since most of what happened was really Ross’s fault, but at the same time she’s not entirely wrong.
I do hope that the two of them are able to be friends again eventually, but I think they needed to have this out.
The blame also goes to Carol, for wanting to bail out Ross, and Blaine for providing the money.
What really broke Joyce’s faith (metaphorically timed with the moment her toenail came off) was the realization that her church (and especially her mom) was *enabling* Ross to hurt Becky again. Her faith could’ve survived by discrediting Ross as a bad actor, but the church’s blatant complicity is what made her faith irreconcilable with her love for Becky.
And I am not sure that the church part affected Becky as much as it did Joyce, especially since it was Joyce’s mom involved. It was more Joyce’s mom blatantly refusing to see how Ross was hurting people that broke Joyce I think. It could be that Joyce is seeing parallels between her mom and Becky, since her mom supported the church that hurt Becky and now it feels like Becky is too.
I think Becky is one of those Christians who very strongly identifies with someone persecuted by religious hypocrites and the unrighteous.
Joyce, not being gay, probably was raised with “Christians are the most persecuted people on Earth” with no irony.
So the latter doesn’t realize Becky REALLY feels the original stories.
Glennon Doyle had a really beautiful piece talking about how, if the Bible were written today, the Virgin Mary likely would have been a black trans woman or a refugee.
The original Jesus story took one of the most downtrodden, at the time, groups and pointed to it and said “Look, God is in that one”.
The message wasn’t meant to be “this one person is God” – but “Look at those you’ve cast out and turned against. God is in that one.”
I don’t follow. I don’t think the Jews were a particularly down-trodden group at the time – not really more than any other Roman subject peoples. And, since it was coming from with the Jewish tradition, it doesn’t really make sense that it was a “Look at those you’ve cast out and turned against. God is in that one.”
You could make the argument that it turned into that message after the crucifixion when Paul took the message to the Gentiles, but I don’t think there’s good evidence that it was preached that way, at least not until well after the events. Nor is it the message in any of the Biblical texts, from what I understand.
“Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”
“I don’t think the Jews were a particularly downtrodden people except for being occupied by the invading slaver state.”
?
“not really more than any other Roman subject peoples.”
Like, most of the known world at the time.
This argument makes sense in terms of modern (or later historic) perceptions of Jews, not in how Jesus’s Jewish followers would have seen things.
They’ll reconcile. Willis loves his lesbian babies too much not to. Reminder: he stretched the rules of this reality thin so Becky could be spared from Ross’ abuse. It’ll be a long, angsty road but they’ll get there eventually.
Joyce out here saying the most blatantly wrong things to say like she’s gunning for the bad end in a visual novel.
I mean, I’m not gonna throw stones in my glass house, I’ve done my share of “tried to de-escalate only to wind up on the defensive back foot and escalating things way worse due to my own dumb young sense of fragile and defensive pride” and wound up in this exact scenario but still.
Actually maybe it’s because of the glass house that I can throw the stones? Like, I’ve been in that exact situation where a capital-M Matter I had with another person (in Joyce’s case, her not feeling safe/comfortable to admit she’s an athiest to Becky) didn’t feel like it could be right to reveal in normal circumstances, because saying “hey I have this Matter” could very easily turn a normal circumstance into a fight, so I ended up just jamming it into the emotional pressure cooker and letting those bad vibes simmer until they erupted out of me and ended up being both delivered and taken wayworse than if I’d just brought them up regularly. (God I hope that paragraph makes sense, haven’t slept in a while.)
Anyways, I guess what I’m trying to say is that what Joyce is doing is kinda dumb and not the best way to resolve the issue, but it’s a very relatable and dare-I-say inevitable kind of dumbness and it doesn’t, like, make her a bad person or anything.
Kudos for the Bad Ending reference.
Joyce wants to get Boatmurdered.
That is a deep cut.
Why’d you say that name??
Martha???
Now that’s a name that doesn’t bode well for much of fucking anything
I don’t know why everyone is expecting this fight to be resolved in 15 minutes on the stairs.
This will be a couple weeks and lots of unpacking and I think they’ll come to an understanding.
Becky is using religion to cope with all her loss, Joyce gave up her religion because she can’t believe all the loss is Gods love.
Or they’ll hate each other forever
(I don’t believe that. Theyre besties.)
“Wanted, my best friend not changing this quickly”
…yeah, now that you mention it, this does remind me of that strip.
I feel like you could grab a number of key strips, mark them on a number line, and make some pretty pictures with the symmetries.
Or I just watched the 3blue1brown video that dropped and math is on my brain.
Joyce losing her marbles was suprising for me (to speaking truth, I waited for this), but I still don’t know if she’s lying to Becky about her being gay be the reason Joyce started lose her faith;
Or Joyce a little coward, to put some guilt on Becky, to blame her about the changes…
Reminds me of a few relatives. The “putting guilt on others” thing, anyway.
No, Joyce is definitely being truthful here. It wasn’t the only step, and it may not have been the biggest, but the first moment where Joyce really stepped back and said ‘I know the church said this but the church is wrong‘ was when Becky asked her if her being gay was a mistake, and Joyce said ‘no. I choose you, every time.’ Dorothy started nudging her down that path, as a goodnatured atheist, and Dina started challenging her, and I think Ryan made her reassess ‘Church = Good, Not Church = Bad’ in her mind which let her start actively befriending atheists… but she still thought being gay was something that could and should be changed, and I suspect she was still thinking she could lead Dorothy and Dina to the way of Christ eventually because they’re good people so OBVIOUSLY they should be Christians too. They just haven’t heard the good word yet!
Becky was a radical shift in her worldview. Becky refused to be reconciled back into Proper Godly Existence, and asked Joyce point blank to choose. Once Joyce started challenging that one thing, as has been building for a while (basically since Becky joined the cast, given the original sin discussion,) the rest started falling apart. Especially because the congregation then proceeded to make it EXTREMELY clear that yes, they WERE in fact the kind of people who’d support the man who pointed a gun at the both of them, kidnap Becky (he was just doing what he thought was right for her SOUL, you see) and then bail him out with the help of a mob boss and continue backing him even after he kidnapped Joyce and like five other people! (Depending on how you count Dina sneaking aboard.) Very easy to justify that break.
Yeah, it didn’t single-handedly cause her faith to change, but it was the first big crack in that foundation, and everything that happened as a result of it tore it to pieces.
That said, it does not at all EXCLUDE Joyce saying it in part because she knows it will hurt Becky on some level. They’re clearly both lashing out by now and Becky just hit her hard last strip. Joyce can be entirely truthful and still be saying it in the harshest way possible.
Have I mentioned both these girls need therapy enough times yet? Can I manifest it into the world with my desperate need for SOMEONE to get some competent trauma-informed therapy and not decide they’ve Won At Mental Health Forever? (*cough Jennifer cough*)
It’s a fictional setting: The therapists are either completely incompetent or non-existent, because if they were present and good at their jobs we wouldn’t have a story >_>.
It turns out therapists in Dumbingverse can only actually see and hear Dorothy and Ruth. This turned the entire profession into a laughingstock and so they had to skulk in the corners of comic strips, never quite present in the real world.
It doesn’t help that after the experience one friend had when she went to IU’s mental health services (where the dumbiverse gang is most likely to go for help) I wouldn’t trust them within a mile of anyone in need of actual help. She went in for help with her depression, and when she described intrusive thoughts the psychiatrist heard auditory hallucinations, misdiagnosed clinical depression as schizophrenia and prescribed anti-psychotics. Then, the anti-psychotics started *causing* hallucinations, made her think she ran over a homeless man and nearly caused a real accident, and when she went back and complained and asked for real help this time, they decided she was an attention seeking liar and again misdiagnosed her, this time with borderline personality disorder.
While I agree a competent mental health professional would be extremely helpful, I honestly don’t expect them to be able to access one any time soon.
…Maybe the Dumbiverse version is more competent?
Not much more, according to Walky at least.
Oof. Sounds awful but not completely out of line with what I’d expect from a very large university’s mental health department. (At best, they are woefully understaffed for the student population and rate of even ‘standard’ mental illnesses for college students like depression and anxiety. At worst… yeah, that’s a standout.)
Unlike real life where we’re all perfectly adjusted because the therapists here are both competent and readily available?
When did Becky asked Joyce to choose?
It’s not quite explicitly ‘choose me or them,’ but the critical moment here is this.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/pit/
‘Is that still what you really believe? That what I did (kissing a girl) was a mistake?’
*Beat panel while Joyce thinks about this*
‘No. … Pit you against anything else in my life, and you will win every time.’
If Joyce had said ‘yes, I think kissing a girl was a mistake,’ Becky would have kept running out of Joyce’s life and probably ended up in a REALLY bad situation, because she couldn’t trust Joyce not to tell Ross. Joyce said no, she refused to believe her best friend was anything but amazing, and that meant the church had to be wrong about gayness being bad. And you can tell from her face in that last panel (which of course we can see, and Becky can’t) that it’s a HUGE realization to her – tears in her eyes, and a strained smile, because she means this 100% but it also means a fundamental shift in her faith to think that the adults in their lives, including Becky’s dad who SHOULD be an absolute authority on All That Is Good For Becky, are wrong. (At the party two storylines later we hear that Becky and Joyce weren’t allowed to watch movies like Frozen because they promote the idea that parents might not be 100% right about what’s best for you. The sliding timescale means that now that movie came out when they were preteens and it will continue sliding backwards, and it’s not a great sentiment for kids either, but when that strip originally ran? They were banned from watching Frozen because it questions absolute parental authority at age 16. This was drawn from Willis’s life experience, albeit slightly askew to adjust for time – he’s talked about not being allowed to watch Scooby Doo specifically because all the monsters were adults lying for their own gain and how it promotes skepticism and critical thinking. So yeah, this was a MASSIVE shift in Joyce’s thinking.) It’s an implied choice, but they were both understanding it as ‘Becky or the adults in our lives.’
The difference is, for Becky, she was just asking ‘me or the adults and this specific thing they taught us,’ and for Joyce, it ended up being ‘Becky and my understanding of religion itself,’ which is why she tried the next day to smooth out this difference into ‘I know our parents said being gay was wrong but the Bible can be interpreted this way where it isn’t!’ the next day or so. And why Becky got annoyed by that, because why does Joyce need the Bible to say something when Becky’s right there saying it herself? This conflict’s been building for a very long time, and the two of them are just enough apart on what God means to them that they’ve been brushing off early signs of it since before Joyce’s crisis of faith really set in.
I understood a bit about you’ve said. I got the reasons from both. I just got umconfortable about Joyce speaking.
I guess it’s because it must be so hard to write 2 people argumenting, where you must bring characters bring they points and, still, putting their feelings and problems on the table…
Oh, yeah, being able to write inter-character conflict like this where both people have a genuine, valid point is EXTREMELY hard. Kudos to Willis, because it’s become a hallmark of the series – Sal and Amber, or maybe Danny and Ethan, was the last big one, but we’ve also had conflicts like Ruth-Rachel and Raidah-Joyce where one character has much more screentime and point-of-view time… and the more minor one has at least as valid an argument as the major character, even if they’re handling it badly. It’s also really hard to write something like this where the characters AREN’T reacting rationally and perfectly, they’re being dumb angry teens lashing out at each other, and yet still make the characters feel sympathetic and not have one who’s clearly supposed to be ‘right.’ This is a skill you have to put a LOT of time into building, and it’s paid off for Willis here – you can see from the comments that a lot of people are deciding one or the other girls has more reason to be hurt and the other’s obviously handling this badly, but there’s a lot of comments for each of them, not one obvious Right Person and one obvious Wrong Person.
Though it seems to me, and I could be filtering this through my own biases, that there’s an awful lot more “Becky is just a horrible person” than “Joyce is just a horrible person”. Even most of those critical of Joyce in this seem to have a sympathetic take on why she’s acting this way, while Becky’s getting accused of gaslighting and stalking and having always been a horrible friend to Joyce.
I haven’t done an exact count today, but yeah, the people being uncharitable towards Becky are going down Everything Becky Did Wrong, Ever whereas Joyce being an asshole is generally limited to this argument where she’s been being an asshole. I might be slightly more sympathetic to Joyce, at least with this parting shot about how Joyce should skip class, but Becky’s not terrible for taking this badly and she’s not terrible for the fact that she would’ve taken this badly BEFORE walking into the atheism-off.
I mean I am #JoyceDidNothingWrong but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible for me to empathize with Becky’s feelings and understand that even if I think this is the culmination of stuff she’s been building (I do have an explanation for that if anyone wants it), the actions and thought processes she’s displaying are completely within reason for the person she is and the relationship she and Joyce have, or at least think they do (and it’s mostly the former of the two).
Like I’m not really thinking of it as “the first fight these two childhood friends have ever had over something deeply important to both of them” all the time, in that I’m reading this and going “yep that’s something you say when you’re angry” and leaving it at that, the level of “these characters feeling things” is just one part of the layer cake for me.
Like yeah I pretty much process this as “Becky’s fault” on every level other than “Becky feeling angry/hurt/betrayed” because you can’t really put feelings in a box, they just happen, but there’s a way more nuanced conversation going on that I think everyone reading understands, they just aren’t approaching these strips on every single level all at once when they say something like “aw poor Becky/Joyce :(” or “Joyce/Becky is being outrageous!”
Although if I had to think about it that whole “whose fault is it?” thing is more based on the initial walking in on a private conversation thing and the character dynamic that both caused it to happen and made it the sadpocalypse, since this here has been outraged feelings and “you’re doing faith wrong” where I know Becky’s the one who more clearly said it but I do think it’d be uncharitable to say that Joyce herself hasn’t been doing the same thing with her own questioning, and both of them are going “you’re doing faith wrong” because they can’t process the idea that the other has, this whole time, not believed in God the exact same way as they do.
Joyce realized that her church was corrupt and evil because of the way they hurt Becky. So she could not do but turn away from God.
Becky always knew they were corrupt and evil and had only God to turn to.
I really hope Dorothy doesn’t just say “you’re better then this” again and tries to really get at the heart of what’s going on with Joyce and help her work through things
I really hope Dorothy doesn’t just go to class after this. You told them to talk right away, Dorothy, and I get why they all did – I think the angry blowout was likely a necessary first step, and if the anger didn’t fester on both sides Joyce would’ve anxiety’d herself to death – but that did also ensure the wounds were maximally fresh, and Dorothy went straight for guilting Joyce.
She goes to class and I think the commentariat explodes at her. I also think JOYCE might, for that matter.
yeah “you’re better than this” is not what anyone needs to hear right about now.
Which is a shame, because Dorothy’s said it twice by now.
Shit, I forgot they have a shared class today, too, no wonder Joe wanted them to talk ASAP.
Yeah, this is. Worse than I’d expected pre-Liz conversation, but still in line with ‘yeah Becky was never going to take this well.’ And Joyce is not in the frame of mind where she can resonably ask herself, ‘do I actually think less of everyone who is religious for being religious? Do I think less of Jacob?’ which I think was necessary for her to have answered that first question with more than shame and the way she and Liz had been winding each other up. (Jacob here being a good example, even after it all went wrong, because he’s unattached to the fundamentalist shit and also a pre-law student who Joyce obviously thought well of, intelligence included.) Nor is Becky in a frame of mind where she’s going to take Joyce’s loss of faith as anything but personal, even if this hadn’t opened in about the worst possible way.
God, these girls need therapy. But barring that, I think right now they both need some space to decompress and people to talk about this with. (Realistically, I expect Dina or Leslie and/or Robin for Becky, Dorothy or Sarah or Joe for Joyce in about that order. Who I’d LIKE for Joyce is Jocelyne. It’s early in the day yet and Joyce is really angry at the adults in her life! The time is ripe for more Sisters Christian!)
*gasp* Jocelyne! A million times yes!
Yeah, I’ve said so a few times: Jacob is an ideal person for Joyce to bounce her atheism off.
So of course Willis hath decreed they shall never speak again, or at least certainly not before this current clusterfuck.
Jacob should come back.
Right around the time Joe’s ready to make some kind of deeper connection with Joyce.
And reveal he still loves her.
It’s time for a love triangle.
I halfway expect Jacob to come back with some new character as his girlfriend.
And it’s Dana.
God, I wish. Clear up how she’s doing AND guarantee Raidah Drama, all in one move.
You know I’ve been thinking if Dana comes back (which, timeskip !And a new social group for Raidah and Carl, that lovable rapscallion) I’d been thinking that Sarah being Right would be the most boring choice and Raidah being Right would be the most dramatic.
But now I think that the most interesting story possible for those two would be one where neither was fully right, Dana’s life was saved but maybe she didn’t go back to a home as comforting as Sarah is hoping it was, and these two idiots who spent a lot of time convinced of their own unfailing righteousness in that situation get to look at the other for long enough that trying to assert themselves again feels like more of an admission of failure than anything else.
Which, you know, would be pretty fitting for a new chapter called “Trial and Sarah.”
Like god what if Dana’s been back since the new semester and she’s been avoiding both Sarah and Raidah because she hates their fucking guts.
Hell, I could see Dana being grateful to Sarah/going ‘okay, I get that this was necessary and now that I’m not depressed and therefore self-centered anymore I get that I put you in a genuinely bad situation, even if how you handled it sucked for me’ without having any desire to be friends. They didn’t seem to have much in common to begin with.
We’ll just have to see. I honestly don’t have huge expectations for Dana coming back, but I would like it to be settled by now.
Well she’s definitely not because I think she will in Trial and Sarah.
And if I were good at this I would not be wearing this nightmare machine.
I feel like a few months of space and the subsequent kidnapping were probably good as potential reset buttons for that relationship. Jacob may or may not have provided some social support for Ethan through the Mike thing (we don’t know how close they actually are as roommates,) but either way while I don’t think they’re going to date any time soon, ‘almost immediately after the Harrison disaster, Joyce got kidnapped and watched a man she knew from childhood die’ does sort of make it easier not to hold a grudge. As a bonus, seeing Joyce and Jacob talking again could easily put Raidah back on the path of petty vengeance that probably got sidetracked by the kidnapping. (I firmly believe Raidah can justify a lot of things to herself, including bullying someone when they’re already socially isolated because you and your friends were her entire friend group. But going out of her way to antagonize someone who was just kidnapped and then witnessed a murder? Yeah, no, the only kid on the cast who MIGHT be awful enough not to back off there is Mary, and even then I think she might hesitate. Antagonizing said person months after the kidnapping when she’s getting close to the ex again after precipitating your breakup? THAT is fair game.)
And he is probably, in fact, the best person to talk to on the subject, since he is religious but clearly open-minded about things (so he has experience that Dorothy and Dina wouldn’t), generally empathetic, and good at asking the questions that nudge Joyce down a better direction. So narratively he COULDN’T be available during the timeskip. Buuuut I still think Jocelyne will also work well for the process, and then we can finally vote for her in the Patreon bonus strips again and also Joyce will probably finally learn she has a sister.
Jocelyne is still a big wild card for me, for this whole deal. Mostly because I don’t know Jocelyne’s religious inclinations, nor her ability to handle the curveballs Joyce might need handled. Jocelyne is good for hijinks, established, and for giving real talk about family history, but while she’ll definitely be understanding, I don’t know if that’d be enough.
I am excited for her to come back to the story, but I’m not convinced this is the right arc for that. But the Willis giveth, so.
True. What we do know is that she’s their parents’ favorite because they know the least about her (ie, she keeps her head down,) that she’s actively avoided getting involved in arguments like the one over Dorothy during family weekend because it’s necessary to keep keeping her head down (which suggests she agrees with then-Joyce that atheists aren’t going to hell, and also that she probably has Joyce’s temper as well,) and that she did disagree with Carol on key points, like fighting to ensure Joyce got Halloween. We also suspect she knew what you need to get by legally if you’ve been disowned by your family for the Becky breakin because SHE was anticipating being disowned by her family, but that’s because she’s trans. My suspicion is she is, minimum, significantly less fundie than Hank, and may or may not be an atheist herself. So she’s clearly broken a bit with the church’s teachings even from what Joyce knows, and has therefore done at least a little deconverting. That puts her with more hands-on experience with that process than Jacob has.
But more to the point for drama, I could also see it prompting Joyce to ask about that whole ‘learning to pick your battles’ stuff and why Joss left it relatively subtle. Jocelyne’s not on the same Adult Tier as Hank or Carol, but she’s just enough older that I could see Joyce asking ‘why didn’t you push harder? If you didn’t agree with everything they said, why did you let them tell me gay people were going to Hell?’ ESPECIALLY because she’s so very hurting here right now. Probably not the best timing for that conversation for it to be… well, not incredibly emotionally-charged and probably a little resentful, but a PERFECT time for it in that Joyce is supercharged with drama.
Jocelyne is living in the closet and living a lie to appease her parents. I haven’t seen the Patreon strips so hey maybe she passes well in most of her life and just dons boy drag to appease the parents – buuuut I doubt it.
I don’t see how that will in any way help Joyce. If anything it would likely only further enflame her rage that her own sibling feels the need to live in hiding all over the Bible.
I think Jocelyne would be able to keep a handle on her emotions if Joyce had angry at her for not pushing back harder with their parents. She is older and wiser and can see where Joyce (and Becky!) is coming from whether or not she herself doesn’t believe in god anymore. Plus I think Joyce is at the stage where she can know truly about Jocelyne and be supportive. They can connect over their shared fudged up childhoods! And Joyce can see that there are more things from her family that are worth holding on to.
Jocelyne offers a lot of things that’ll help Joyce right now – that her older sister who supports her had a good reason for picking battles, that she’s not the only one who’s angry at their parents but Joss has learned to hide it (I’ve just realized Joyce didn’t see the ‘I’m gonna be a fucking scientist’ strip or the one about ‘the danged extent of my allowed aspirations’, and I wonder if Becky doesn’t let herself be as honestly resentful of Ross around Joyce because she thinks Joyce only wants Fun Lovable Becky, not just coincidences of timing.) If Jocelyne still believes, she can provide some perspective on how a queer person can grow up in that environment and still believe in God, how you have to learn to make your faith flexible. If she doesn’t, she’s telling Joyce ‘you are not alone and your experience in realizing our parents were wrong and rejecting it all is 100% valid,’ which I think will also have more impact from Jocelyne rather than Liz because sibling who grew up in the exact experience versus kind of stranger. (Jocelyne’s also much less aggressive about atheists being better, probably by necessity.) There’s a chance Joyce gets angry at an adult who didn’t tell her the honest truth, but I think in that case Jocelyne will (kindly) tell her she’s being a bit of an asshole and remind her of that ‘sometimes it’s not safe to say what you’re thinking’ lesson from lunch. The conversation can go several different ways, but they could all be helpful to Joyce, and I think once Joyce gets over the initial ‘what’s a trans person’ shock, she’ll accept Jocelyne fullheartedly. Plus that particular reveal can redirect Joyce’s anger at Becky and bring the conversation to more productive ‘what do you actually believe, separate from our parents lied? Are you angry at all religious people ever? Don’t you have those religious friends besides Becky?’ outlets.
Oh dang, that is absolutely why the Jacob thing happened the way it did.
They both love each other, they both have heapings of trauma, they both are arguing about different things, they both are right and wrong about what they think the fight is about. Which is what makes it all so terrible and riveting!
I know this looks bad but I’m sure they’ll resolve there differences when it’s dramatically appropriate. Probably some climactic event or vital plot development that raises the stakes beyond their religious squabble and forces them to re-examine the importance of their relationship. Maybe even through the context of other characters who have significant events unfolding as a nice juxtaposition to their conflict. Things seem more focused on interpersonal drama than high stakes danger, but who knows what’s down the line? I’m sure some long forgotten dangling plot thread will resurface just in time for these two to learn a valuable lesson.
I, on the other hand, kind of want them to drift off into other stories, not speaking but forced in proximity via mutual friends and shared classes. I want Becky to get the lessons Joyce got last term about boundaries and respect. I want Joyce yo sort her stuff, figure out what’s what in her head and soul (if she decides she believes in such a thing).
And then, after a while, they notice that they’re talking again and laughing together at old jokes that no one else gets. And THEN, better sorted and somewhat healed (or at least in less direct pain), they have a better-developed and far less screamy redux of this conversation.
Re-bonding in a crisis would feel too pat to me.
Yup. This is a much better write-up on what I was vaguely shooting for with “stop being best friends and start being friends”.
Wonder how close either of them were to saying ‘F you’ to each other.
After Becky dropped the first I was almost certain we’d finally see one from Joyce.
I was almost expecting the same, honestly.
I can get what Joyce is TRYING to say but holy shit she picked the absolute worst way possible to say it.
I think Joyce’s emotions are actually sharper and rawer than just reassurance.
I think she IS pissed Becky still has her faith.
Joyce first statement is kinda given lie by her very next sentence ironically. If your faith has told you that certain classes of (non-immoral) people will (even deserve) going to hell, that faith is kinda teaching that you are superior to other people.
Of course, to Joyce’s credit, once she recognized that aspect of her faith/religious environment she immediately began moving away.
Unlike Becky, Joyce can’t separate those teachings as inherent elements of her conception of Christian faith, so her ultimate recourse was to cut herself away from it.
Both Joyce and Becky just can’t see/understands how the other can/can’t still view Christian faith that way.
Anyway Becky can feel and feelings are valid and all that stuff I keep saying because I feel like not reiterating it makes me come off like I don’t believe it, I’m just inherently bothered by Becky stomping away telling Joyce not to come to the next class.
Like actually do walk away because you’re hurting and this conversation has been four strips of two people who look at the sky and see a different colour and it could go on indefinitely, I’m just kind of processing it like, yeah Joyce has actually constantly defended Becky from every single person she was told was inherently smarter and better than Joyce, she has risked expulsion and been in two car chases that started with “Ross wants Becky back.”
I feel reasonably convinced this is the first time in her life Joyce has yelled at Becky, let alone be mad at her, or even considered her own feelings as mattering more than what they made Becky feel.
No I’m not saying Becky is wrong to walk away or feel angry. None of what I’m writing here has any real meaning to me in how I view the character dynamics or even processing this specific conversation. Just, like, yeah she has actually been through a lot “because” (please note the quotation marks to indicate that Becky is not directly responsible for incurred suffering) of being Becky’s best friend, but she also kept going through it because loving her mattered more than loving God.
Actually, I kinda think Becky is wrong for walking away. But I don’t know how to articulate why. The “parting shot” line doesn’t help.
Joyce is looking away so forlornly because Becky got three cool lines to end on the last panel and she got zero.
I mean she just got emotionally gaslighted about how her own and existential crisis doesn’t matter and psychologically abused by her supposed “best friend”.
Did you I don’t know how elated or anything but forlorn one should feel right after being abused by somebody.
I am also bothered by Becky telling her not to come to class. “Don’t talk to me at class” or even “I wish we didn’t have class because I don’t want to be around you right now,” fine. Because it’s okay that she’s walking away. But you don’t get to tell people to skip class because YOU have an issue—not to mention, I believe the class that Joyce independently chose to skip was Robin’s BS PoliSci class, so it’s not even fair for Becky to imply that decision would be similar to the decision to skip biology, a class where she actually learns things.
More strikingly: Joyce confronts Becky with just one of the (many) things that Joyce has sacrificed in order to support Becky (which may be unfair but is truthful), and Becky’s response is to…demand that she now sacrifice her Biology education to cater to Becky’s feelings? Jesus, how tone deaf can you be? I really hope Joyce shows up to class and passive aggressively calls Becky out for telling her to not go (while poor Joe and Dina stand uncomfortably in their respective corners).
Joyce skipped calc. She’s not in the PoliSci class.
No, Joyce and Becky share the PoliSci class with Robin, and I’m pretty sure it is the same day as calculus. Joyce wanted to be in the class because Becky and Dorothy both need it for their majors and Sarah was taking it as well, so she wanted one with the three of them.
It’s Leslie’s Gender Studies that only Becky is in.
*patiently waiting for someone to make a definitive webpage showing everyone’s class schedule*
It exists!
https://walkypedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dumbing_of_Age_Class_Schedule
Looks like it hasn’t been updated for the timeskip though.
Huh, then why were Becky and Dorothy expecting Walky and Lucy, of sharing calculus calculus, to know? Plus, Joyce definitely skipped calc, she asked Lucy to lend her notes I thought…
::rereads strips::
AH HAH. Joyce skipped two classes! She skipped Calc, which is why Sal skipped too, and THEN she skipped PoliSci which is why Dorothy and Becky were wondering where she was!
Thank you. I feel better.
I don’t think she skipped PoliSci – it read to me like Becky and Dorothy weren’t already thinking Joyce had skipped, but were just surprised Joyce wasn’t walking to class with Lucy and Walky.
But I’d have to look at that probably non-existent class schedule to be sure.
Alright fine. Doing a bit of research: On what I assume is Monday, Sal, Walky, Joyce, Lucy and Jennifer have Calculus at 10 AM, then Becky, Joyce, Dorothy, Sarah and Roz have Poli-Sci after lunch. Biology is the next day, as is the Gender Studies class.
Joyce skipped Calc, prompting Sal to do so as well (and Sarah to skip her class at the same time). Becky and Dorothy were coming back from some other unknown class (possibly shared, possibly just walking back from the same direction) when they met Walky and Lucy heading to Calc and asked why Joyce wasn’t with them.
It’s the afternoon Poli-Sci class that Becky says they have soon. Biology is the next day, along with Becky’s Gender Studies class.
Yeah, my guess is Calc and PoliSci are Monday-Wednesday-Friday classes, and that timing seemed to be what I thought it was so thanks for confirming!
Biology (Joyce, Becky, Dina, Joe) and Gender Studies (Becky, Ruth, Jennifer) are therefore Tuesday-Thursday classes. Today is a Friday.
Carla’s in gender studies as well. Hope we see more of that and not just for the Ruth/Jennifer fireworks.
It’s also worth remembering that they all have other classes as well that just aren’t getting focused on. It doesn’t have to be one of those 4 if someone’s going to or coming from class, which I think tripped some people up, since Becky and Dorothy seemed to be coming back from class.
Right! Forgot Carla.
College students usually take 4-5 classes a semester, so most of Joyce’s and Becky’s are accounted for and about half of Dorothy’s, but everyone else has big question marks where classes could be.
@Regalli
Always have a hard time processing how much that makes, bc I only know US college life from pop culture.
How many hours a week are each class usually?
How many hours a week have people class usually?
On this wiki, feels like there are only five or ten hours class per week, which disturbs me greatly.
…. so I think the next step is for Joyce get her clothes publicly mauled off of her by a Dina-saur.
Becky’s actually just this worried* about Joyce becoming an atheist because she knows that Dina won’t be able to resist forming an atheist lesbian poly triad with Joyce and Dorothy.
*may not actually be the cause of Becky’s worry.
Yes, I concur.
Oh, that IS an excellent grav! ^^
Probably not the best time to bring this up but whatever.
Yesterday StClair asked me what percentage of my DOA art is big asses so I counted all of it, and the art I could consider “big asses” and it’s about 8-10%
Criminally low!
While I was out it I also counted out how many were about boobs. And I may be wrong but it’s about 46%
And to finish of the trifecta How many were about kissing?
About 9% same as butts.
I hope this has been educational. You can now return to your discussion about religion or whatever.
New comment section argument: boobs, butts or kissing?
Do I have to choose? :'(
This is allowed, but you must love all equally
Kisses on boobs and butts. Final answer!
https://youtu.be/nendMLrpI-s
You’ve somehow answered the impossible, collect your prize of boobs and butts to kiss!!!!!
is there ever a bad time for boobs and butts and smooches???
no. there is not.
It’s over, Becky.
I have the high ground.
Becky: “Okay.” *leaves*
You know… I wonder if there’s any symbolic meaning to Joyce being physically higher up than Becky. Like Willis could have had Joyce come all the way down the steps or Becky climb up them, but they’re on physically different levels
It is visual symbolism for how these two were never having the same conversation that entire time.
There are two basic interpretations: 1. Joyce has the moral high ground; or 2. Joyce is dominating the space, i.e. looming.
A different interpretation is that Joyce is inside, so she’s trapped, but Becky is outside, so she can walk away. That one feels closer. I.e., the vertical bit is a red herring; the real symbolism is that Joyce has her back to the wall and Becky doesn’t.
Blegh. I meant to also say that I didn’t buy either basic interpretation.
huh! interesting thoughts!
i do like your last reading best.
to me it feels like Becky was sort of conditionally waiting at the bottom of the steps, hoping Joyce would come out and make this better. That might’ve been represented by Joyce coming to sit down next to her. But Joyce didn’t want to placate Becky, she wanted to get stuff off her chest, so she’s, literally, standing her ground. (i’m not clear on the campus geography but this is a different building than where the girls stay, right?)
Meanwhile, being at the bottom of the steps, and Joyce at the top, meant that Becky was ready to storm off— and she did.
so, in a nutshell same thing you said except i wouldn’t say Joyce is trapped. I think both of them chose offensive positions and postures: Joyce signifies she belongs in this building, where Becky has found her hanging out with Joe and Liz, and that she won’t simply bend to appease Becky.
and Becky is declaring her readiness to leave the conversation at any moment.
It is the same building. They were in Joe’s dorm room, which is on the same floor, but the other wing — essentially around the corner.
For added symbolism, these are also the stairs that Becky fled to after kissing Joyce and being rejected and where Joyce found her after that.
oh right, people were linking to that other strip the other day, so obviously same building.
but yeah, Joyce is clearly ready to return to Joe’s room, which she just ran out of without her stuff. which isn’t visual symbolism for anything, it just makes sense in the situation, but also, it must feel to Becky like Joyce is about ready to go back to “her friends” at any time.
Becky ran off before even Dorothy could say anything; i wonder if, at this moment, she isn’t feeling like everyone else, not just Liz but Sarah, Joe, maybe even Dorothy, thinks she’s the annoying christian who can’t take a joke while they were all having a pleasant time bantering with Joyce about how dumb christians are. (oof.)
This is simplistic, but this argument between Joyce and Becky seems to stem from corrupted beliefs. There’s no doubt between them that their parents’ belief structures were terrible. But is it better to remove yourself from those beliefs as much as possible, or to appropriate the ones that helped you in spite of said parents?
Dry words aside…oof. I figure they’ll spend time apart now. Hopefully it’s not forever.
Neither is better. The best response depends on what drives you as a person, what comforts you, what you care about, who you care about, what kind of society you live in, what kinds of options you have access to, etc., etc.
That’s part of the problem. Joyce and Becky have very different answers to all of those questions.
Maybe. I’m not sure they’re that far apart on the big questions.
In a lot of ways it’s not really so much “which is best” as just which way you break when the damage hits. Neither of them analyzed their best options, they just reacted. Becky leaned deeper into faith as a support, while dropping (some) of the toxic parts. Joyce’s faith broke completely. Neither of them chose those, they just happened.
And here they can’t understand how the other has different beliefs despite similar experiences.
“The best response depends on what drives you as a person, what comforts you, what you care about, who you care about, what kind of society you live in, what kinds of options you have access to, etc., etc.”
This. So much this. It’s why I don’t wanna take a real side in this fight, beyond pointing out when I think one of them has a good point. (Not sure how well I succeeded in that regard).
Could have been worse! I sympathize w Joyce here cuz she’s trying to articulate something that’s very intense and there’s no good way to explain exactly what she meant while yelling at each other. Hopefully this drives em both forward and they can reconcile after some growth
Anyway, my condolences to Willis for the past days of the comment section and for the comments sections to come.
I’m 99% sure that Willis was well aware of just how nuclear the comments section would be and has been going to great lengths to not look at any of it directly…
They did at least skim, saying yesterday on Twitter that
1) Atheists are a mistake, and
2) Because it had come up in the comments in the last two days via speculation, no, he is still very much an atheist, he just also thinks his comic draws the real asshole atheists out to the commentary.
I also noticed that at least one of the cruel comments towards a certain commenter who was struggling in a concerning way in a certain thread yesterday disappeared, so unless Willis has hired other moderators (not a bad idea tbh) it looks like he’s still around for moderation
Willis actually tweeted a few times about the comments yesterday – early on tweeting “okay phew nobody’s called anybody a christcuck”, but in the afternoon successively tweeting, well, this.
[“i checked too soon”, “atheism was a mistake”, and “(to clarify, since someone was postulating the other day that MAAAAAYBE i was easing back into religion, the answer is no, I myself am an atheist, but that doesn’t mean the atmosphere over here is any less self-righteous)” if you’re unable to fully view the link without being logged into Twitter, since it can be weird these days about that]
Thanks for the link.
I had not heard that phrase before and it has since filled me with joy imaging some cool christian wearing a “cuck for christ” tee.
Cool Christian genuinely, or one of those youth pastors who’s trying to connect with the kids by figuring out what these new ‘meme’ things are and doesn’t entirely understand what this T-shirt means?
One is amusing, the other is sadly hilarious.
Genuinely cool!
Sometimes I wish I did the Twitter so I could keep up with this kind of thing.
Sometimes. And then I get better.
In breaking away from religious upbringing you have many different people, Joyce is absolutely convinced that a God that would look upon people like Dorothy & Becky and say they deserve hell is a God not worth believing in despite trying so hard to defend them.
Becky I’d say can’t come to believe that if God is as just, kind, loving, and pretty much the embodiment of everything good in the world like she was led to believe than there’s no way they would damn her for loving a specific person.
What’s harder coming to terms with the fact that you’ve lost faith in your beliefs or trying your hardest to hold on to it when said beliefs seem to reject you.
Sensible suggestion by Becky. Presumably Joyce won’t be following it.
I think the biggest error Joyce made here is to treat this as something she can “win”. She’s tried a few different attempts at deflection (when asked flat out if she thought Becky was an idiot for her beliefs, she wanted to talk creationism instead. Then about Dina. Then tried to place the metaphorical bill for her loss of faith in the first place on Becky.) None of those are going to work, because the fundamental issue at hand isnt theological, it’s about Becky feeling disrespected. And you can’t argue a healthy person into agreeing that it’s okay to disrespect them.
Joyce wants Becky to be as angry at God as she is.
Becky wants Joyce to believe in God as much as she does.
They’re both disappointed in the other and wrong.
I mean see the thing is that Becky is trying to win too.
Like Joyce and Becky are saying things in response to each other to bolster their point, it’s just that Joyce is saying “they’re all rules and when one is broken they all broke” while Becky is saying “faith itself is what’s important”, and Joyce thinks Becky uses Joyce’s rulebook while Becky thinks Joyce uses hers, so they’re processing the things the other is saying as a nonsense response in the face of the actual truth that Joyce/Becky understands and that Becky/Joyce understands too, so why are you acting like you don’t?
Then Becky blamed Joyce’s lack of faith on Joyce’s failures and then Joyce said that she’s no longer faithful because of Becky, and both of those only mean things that make sense to the person saying it and not the one hearing it.
Nah, you can totally argue a healthy person into agreeing to that. It’s just that they won’t be as healthy anymore afterwards. And also you’d be some type of asshole.
Okay, here’s a question for the crowd, sincerely asking it here:
Right now, what does Joyce believe in?
And I don’t mean simple stuff like “She’s an atheist” or “She believes that Christianity is bunk”, which is mostly describing what she *doesn’t* believe. I mean… really, what sort of beliefs does she have?
I’m a pretty firm agnostic, but “not following a religion” and “having no faith” are not remotely the same things. I have aspects of belief, just less specific and structuralized, but still things that I hold onto (one of the most important being that people, for the most part, generally speaking, want to do good. We’re just really shit at it a lot of the time. Boy howdy have the last few years been rough on that one).
I think this is where a lot of the issues on Joyce’s side of things comes from. She’s gotten rid of her core tenets of belief, her nigh-unwavering belief in her particular sect of Christianity… but she hasn’t found anything to replace it with. And because her sect of Christianity was so toxic and her break with it was so jagged and rough, it’s poisoned her view of any expression of Christianity.
There’s a lot of people up above me talking about things that Joyce could’ve said or should’ve said or really meant and all that stuff… but I think this is one of the key aspects of Joyce right now: She doesn’t know what she means, not fully. She knows what she doesn’t believe in, but she hasn’t followed it up with anything yet.
Its an interesting thing for a strip like this to explore. Joyce knows a lot of characters who are non-religious or have alternate religious viewpoints, and now that she’s not trying to hide it away from everyone, she has an opportunity to build something to take the place of her broken faith, in whatever form that might be.
See the thing about Joyce being an atheist, a word she was actually unable to say out loud last strip, is that it doesn’t meant she believes in the non-existence of any kind of God, atheism for Joyce is just everything she lost.
So far she has figured out she is just a monkey.
Why on earth do you have to find anything new to believe?
As time goes on, you figure out what your moral structure will be, sure. Some things you reason out, some things you just accept because of society, some stick with you from your indoctrination like goddamn scar tissue. But nothing needs to replace that “higher power” idea.
I think you missed that is literally describing “finding something new to believe in” John Smith. You may believe in Star Trek, epicuranism, or secular humanism. But Joyce feels she’s lacking guidance.
Even Dorothy believes in something, per her own words to Joyce a long while ago. That something being “other people”, as I recall.
Because having a core philosophy is generally a good thing for a healthy mind? Our brains aren’t set up to be perfectly and impossibly logical, and absolutely none of it has to involve higher powers or anything like that.
I may well be overextending the term “believe” here, and fair enough there. But it’s more just a general question of “what does Joyce accept to be true”?
Eh, fair enough. Sorry, I’ve heard too many variations on the theme of vague spiritualism, so that’s where my mind jumped at “belief.” As far as a core philosophy goes, I rather like Optimistic Nihilism.
I used to say it’s a matter of “Credo” vs “Cogito”.
Makes more sens in countries where catholicism is strong I guess.
I’m not sure it’s really true that “core philosophy” is really that important. Seems to me that’s kind of an “atheists need a replacement for religion” idea, which might be a common thing for both religious people and newly former religious people to believe, but I’m not sure it really holds up.
Which doesn’t mean we’re “perfectly and impossibly logical”. Most of us just muddle through without relying much on a core philosophy, even when we theoretically have one. Like all the theoretically religious, but don’t really pay much attention to it people. In theory, they still have a religious core philosophy, but it doesn’t really drive them.
Joyce has no idea what she believes right now. She had a mountain she could point to, but it’s just a pile of garbage as far as she can tell. Now, she has a massive thing to point to and yell ‘THAT’S JUST GARBAGE.’
Until she sorts through it and burns the garbage away, she won’t know if there’s any Actual Real Stuff in there at all. Maybe she’ll come away with a few chunks of quartz or gold or whatever. Maybe she’ll just have a vacant patch she can plant flowers in. Nobody knows, especially not Joyce herself.
Right now she’s only got the huge, crushing pile of garbage.
Yep.
There’s a huge difference in believing in something right and knowing something is wrong.
She believes in having friends, and she believes that her church was evil.
As founding statements go, it’s not much for creating her new heretical branch and accordingly, she has no followers.
Right now, I think she believes there’s a definite Right Path set of beliefs, and once you have it, you go all in on it. This includes judging people not reaching the same conclusions. She just switched positions on what the right path is, fairly recently.
Since her definition of her previous beliefs was rigid enough to reject a church service for not having grape juice, she assumes (now that she doesn’t believe that anymore) that when she’s arguing this with other people, she’s arguing specifically about her previous beliefs. That’s why she’s still on a binary that says you’re either a literalist or a total nonbeliever. (See how she expects Becky to respond to her point about dinosaurs on the Ark.)
This is partly about who she is, but also that she grew up in a situation where wrangling with difficult questions wasn’t encouraged. To put it mildly. So she believes she can just glom on to what seems like the opposite, be in the right again and be okay. Not exactly like before but at least somewhere to stand, morally speaking.
She included “whatever’s good for Becky” as a pillar of her new setup, but just ran smack into not considering that Becky isn’t on Joyce’s new “team”, didn’t rea
really believe what Joyce did in terms of faith structure in the first place, (I think when they said Joyce was the best-socialised of her homeschooling group, they meant “most inculcated, least likely to go apostate if she leaves”, not “best-adjusted”) and that her new belief system allows her to openly mock Becky (at least according to Becky). Which is probably not “good” for her.
Oh, we do in fact know that was what they meant about Joyce being the best-socialized (or at least, a significant part of it for at least one member of the congregation, and John definitely echoed it and Carol wanted to pull her out.)
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/03-when-it-crumbles/renewal/
And so does Joyce. But not Becky, at least onscreen, and ‘hey so I know your dad just died but before he let Amber go he said this’ is one of those conversations that seems a bit too awkward and traumatic to expect came up offscreen.
As an ex-Christian, I’m feeling this plotline so much.
Ditto, even though my break was in 1988, because the people in my church were saying that environmentalists were evil because we had to use up everything in the earth’s resources and leave a burned-out husk of a planet behind or Jeebus wouldn’t come back by Y2K. I spent 20 years as a Pagan before becoming an atheist sometime after getting killed in 2001 (yes, seeing the afterlife made me atheist).
Wow. Not a fan of “Good Stewards” are they.
That’s what I brought up but I was told I was wrong.
Sorry man. Sounds awful.
Same. I never had a falling out with anyone or big argument (turns out my dad never really believed either so that helped) but it’s still really relatable.
Same. And as a person who manages to screw up nearly every confrontation I’ve ever been in. Thank you Willis for a great story.
Joyce skips class and goes somewhere to mope.
Two hours later she comes back to the dorms to find Sarah still hugging Liz.
YES ALL THAT HUGGING WAS WASTED, SARAH!
This is all about her mother, Joyce.
Well that could have gone better… yikes, Joyce.
Why did this feel so inevitable?
I’m sad now. 🙁
These two have a lot to unpack when the wounds aren’t so fresh.
Joyce definitely could’ve handled this better, but, speaking as someone who’s been in a similar situation and handled it worse, I do respect her for standing her ground here. Becky’s the one refusing to talk about this. She’s acting in a way that’s consistent with why Joyce would be afraid to tell her this sort of thing in the first place
I think that’s a credit to how well this arc has been written so far. Neither of them is indisputably right or wrong.
and readers come away with radically different reads.
it’s so good.
The frustrating thing about the comments is how few seem to grasp the “neither indisputably right or wrong” part and instead just pick one of the two to declare indisputably right and the other wrong. Or vice versa.
I feel like my sympathies tilt differently by day in response to the character who’s getting ragged on more that particular day. Everyone’s angry at Becky? I am now the Becky Defense Squad. Now they’re angry at Joyce? Joyce Did Nothing Wrong, Ever (except that she did, and I freely acknowledge that, but.)
Seems to come up most dramatically with like, Walky and Amber.
I lean the same way and probably seem to even more than I actually do. I may post a lot more in defense of a character I think is getting more targeted, which doesn’t mean I’m actually against the other character in the conflict.
Of course, since I’m not doing detailed semantic and statistical analysis of the comments, who I think is getting the brunt of the commentariat’s rage may depend on where my sympathies lie to start with. I know I’ve seen comments saying “Everyone is attacking X today” when I was thinking they were seeing lots of defense and people had it in for Y.
The funny thing about “Everyone is attacking X” as in I also did this right at the start of this mess, is that “everyone” means X amount of people being mean to the character I think is right, and X is defined by how many people I’ve decided hate Joyce before it becomes everyone.
In my defense, I also meant it more right at the start when this was just “Becky walked in on Joyce talking to Liz” except that isn’t actually a defense because it’s the same thing here!
Same. The ‘Joyce is being an asshole’ comments stuck more in my head but as things have come in through the day the anti-Becky ones have gotten REALLY nasty, and this whole conflict has definitely leaned more against Becky among the commentariat than not.
Yeah. Though this is again my biased opinion, I feel like a lot of the anti-Joyce comments are more on the Joyce is being an asshole and driving the conflict, but it’s understandable why. She’s wrong, but not evil.
While on the anti-Becky side, I’m seeing a lot of “gaslighting”, manipulating, stalking. Trying to ignore the ones that are just “She’s religious and therefore the bad one”.
Depends on who’s indisputably right about something at the moment.
Because if I had to weigh a total comparison Joyce would be the clear winner.
You know, if I’m judging, as in I am an actual person watching these cartoon characters do things and think about it, the thought processes and actions that have led us to this point, yeah it’s Becky’s fault.
Not the feelings, though. Gosh is Becky gonna sting no matter what.
I would prefer a more “Draw” conclusion,
but it seems Joyce won this first round.
On to the second 😛
(I’m trying to joke because this damn scene is killing me. Be friends already!)
I genuinely think this went well, for both. Like obviously it’s not perfect but as I said a couple pages ago, they got out what they needed to say without calling names or getting mean or violent, this is what it will take for them to be able to sort things out as friends
Yeah. This is painful, but they needed to have it out, and then someone had to walk away. The next step is that they do other stuff while being angry, but they think about it and both decide what they actually want from each other and figure out how to ask for it. If anything, which I think will be something for both.
Is it just an artistic method to color the mood, or did the sun went down within this one dialog? The left the building in bright daylight and panel two now looks like it’s nighttime again.
that’s just a bush behind the railing becky is standing in front of
Sorry Becky (and Joe), but i don’t think Joyce will skip next class. Actually, I hope this will explode again in that class for see how others characters will react. This could be the beginning of a war!
*shocked* Rabisch!! have you gone over to the DARK SIDE?!
I am the dark side.
I’m sure that was painful to say and for Becky to hear, but I don’t think I can fault Joyce much for it. Becky was putting words into Joyce’s mouth, gaslighting her for everything wrong with their religious beliefs. Correcting Becky on the reasons for her behavior is necessary, and I don’t think Joyce could have put it much more diplomatically without being dishonest about her feelings.
I hope Becky (and the comments section) learns how hurtful her side of the conversation was. Becky was basically telling Joyce that she lost her faith because she believed the wrong parts. And that she believed those parts because she was a bad, judgemental, foolish person. It’s all Joyce’s fault, and none of it is the fault of their religious beliefs. It’s pretty common and to some extent culturally accepted, but it’s still wrong. It’s still gaslighting a victim of religious indoctrination.
The reality is that Joyce lost her faith because she chose people instead, which is something Becky doesn’t understand. Becky just Batmans her way through, always finding ways to choose both via compartmentalization or crediting her god and by proxy, her faith, with all the good things that have come her way (even though they came from the actions and sacrifices of people who were largely areligious).
Joyce doesn’t do that because she expects more consistency from her belief systems and actually credits the people who help her instead of shifting credit to religion. There are other differences, too, but most of it comes down to Becky being willing to do the various mental gymnastics to avoid cognitive dissonance while Joyce refuses, choosing to address the conflict between basic human decency and her faith very directly.
It’s certainly clear which side of that fence I’m on, but I hope that regardless of which approach people favor, everyone could at least acknowledge that this difference is the reason, not Joyce being foolish for believing the “unimportant” stuff or Joyce being a judgemental asshole being the only reason she’s having to work through prejudice. That’s probably a pretty foolish hope, though, given society’s overwhelming favoritism of religion that has even well-meaning areligious people participating in gaslighting victims of religious indoctrination.
Ehhhh,
I feel like that is giving Joyce a bit more credit than deserved. Christianity was originally founded as a reform branch of Judaism dealing with the rise of fundamentalism during the Roman occupation as well as collaboration with said organization. It was very much about attacking religious hypocrites, misinterpretation of scripture [usually saying. “If it’s evil, it’s wrong], and an attitude of enduring suffering for the greater good.
Becky and Joyce’s church REALLY deemphasized all of this but Becky undoubtedly felt the message keenly of enduring suffering so that good could come from it. What Becky sees is relevance to her life and that the church was manipulating th message for its own good. Joyce only sees the message and her church as indistinguishable.
And Joyce when asked, “Do you think I’m an idiot for believing in God?”
Says, “Well, all these things aren’t true so…”
Which is her arguing, “yes, yes I do. I just don’t want to say it directly.”
And that attack is what led to what people are calling Becky accusing Joyce of believing the wrong parts.
I don’t really understand what your first comment is saying. How does a history lesson or a clarification about why Becky is happy to compartmentalize her beliefs take away credit from Joyce’s stance of “You’re my best friend. Put you against anything in the world, and you will win every time,” and all of her actions in the name of her friends that followed? That is truly why Joyce no longer believes. It has nothing to do with the words Becky is putting into her mouth.
And…yeah. Yeah, Joyce does think that belief in a god is idiotic and I don’t think she gives Becky a special exclusion. The part that Joyce doesn’t have the nuance to explain is that feelings on a belief system do not necessarily mean that those feelings represent the general feelings towards every single individual who believes it. People are more complicated than that. Joyce can think Becky’s religious beliefs are idiotic but think that Becky is a kind and intelligent person despite that based on how Becky interacts with people and her successes in school. People are not one thing, and turning “This belief is idiotic” into “Do you think I’m an idiot for believing it?” is a huge simplification. It also implies that you’re only happy to coexist with people who believe different things if those beliefs are totally unobjectionable or totally hidden from you. That isn’t tolerance; it’s either privilege because you only believe things that are widely shared (or at least respected) or you’re willfully ignorant of others’ beliefs.
Joyce could certainly be doing better. “No, I don’t think one idiotic belief defines you as a person. I still respect and care for you even if I don’t think highly of one of your beliefs,” would 100% be better and I think that’s probably an accurate picture of Joyce’s feelings. I don’t really blame her for not having this level of eloquence yet, though, as this is very new for her.
Becky mind you would STILL be offended because it’s one of the most important beliefs she has. You can’t separate Becky from believing in God anymore than you say, “I hate black people but I don’t just think of you as black, Sarah.”
Huh. You know what. I’ve liked this story. Still like it, honestly, It’s why I keep coming back to it, and will continue to. But I’ve come to the realization that I genuinely do not like any of these people. And I wouldn’t have, when I was their age. Perhaps danny and sal, but that one’s iffy, and I only base that possibility on the idea that both of them aren’t habitual jerks to their friends. I know there are serious issues being talked about, they’re serious to me too, but I can’t help but think that if these people were to ask me for advice I would have to *bite* my tongue not to immediately respond: “sounds like you all deserve each other.”
You can’t relate to bad upbringing or interpersonal blunders at all? You must be an absolutely wonderful person. Everyone you meet is fortunate to know you.
I could make any number of comments on how I never said I couldn’t relate (in fact I said nearly the opposite) but I’m going to instead go with thank you for noticing and have a wonderful day, because we’re probably not going to agree and that’s fine.
Ooooooof
Well that’s a thing that happened
I just realised another element of why this is so cruel to Becky. Her fear of change has been slapped in her face, Joyce is directly telling her that her being gay destroyed Joyce’s faith. That fear that Becky is changing everyone for the worse is gonna get worse I feel. She’s gonna need to have a long convo with someone patient to help her through that, too bad there’s no therapy in this universe I guess
Also trying to work the gravatar system, I think I’ve figured it out
Nope still haven’t. Does anyone know how you change avatars? I’ve created an account but apparently that’s not enough
No wait it works now hazzah! I’m gonna say that this was a goku needing spirit energy situation and thank you all! 😄💜💜💜💜
Very nice =) who is it? and more importantly, what does it say on their T-shirt?
It’s from the ttrpg “tales from the loop, it’s the rocker with a shirt that says iron maiden. I love the drawings in tales from the loop
If nobody will ask the important question I will!… Is Joyce blonde or brunette? Her hairs a pretty color but I’m not sure which one exactly…
She’s a redhead.
Ash blonde!
I think her hair is supposed to be dark/dirty blonde. I tried to find photos of celebrities with a similar natural tone but unfortunately many of them keep burying it in highlights or completely recoloring it. The closest examples who kept popping up were Jennifer Aniston, Amy Poehler, Reese Witherspoon, and late 1970s Debby Boone.
I appreciate all the answers! They all seem correct.. well save one >3>
Better example, though a Photoshop job: Revlon’s “dark ash blonde” color is dead on for what I think Joyce’s hair color would look like in a photorealistic render.
https://www.target.com/p/revlon-colorsilk-beautiful-permanent-hair-color-4-4-fl-oz-dark-ash-blonde-1-kit/-/A-12475548
Honestly, that shade of blonde, with that hairstyle, has always been her big draw for me. The glasses are just the cherry on top.
Definitely blonde.
I have blonde hair. When I was like 10, it was practically bone-white. Now, I almost look like I’ve got brown hair.
Blonde hair is WEIRD.
I MADE A POLL?
…i made a poll.
You made a poll.
I look forward to seeing the results once more people have taken that poll.
Cool poll 😛
I really want to pick both “JOYCE NO” and “BECKY NO”. That pretty much sums it up.
“Everybody’s wrong here and they will continue to be so until Ted Cruz comes along, at which point we can all be right in despising him.”
That’s true, it is missing a “both wrong, period” option. Oh well!
They’re not even really wrong, just stop, please.
They’re both right, in their own ways, but they’re not hearing each other.
Both characters being wrong and arguing incessantly over which one is more wrong is a storied writing dynamic.
Like Billie and Ruth.
@thejeff I’m sorry, you’re right that isn’t what you said.
And I don’t personally feel like anyone’s wrong here either, fwiw I went with “i feel equally sympathetic to both”.
I tried to offer a range of phrasings to encapsulate the various sentiments floated and sometimes intensely defended in this comment section over the past few days. Of course dozens of people have expressed their heartfelt opinion, there’s no way any poll was gonna do justice to the diversity of feelings regarding this conflict.
If I did emphasize the right/wrong framing its because I think a lot of commenters resorted to that sort of vocabulary.
I definitely I could’ve done a better job though! Sorry to anyone who didn’t felt represented!
Yeah no, it’s good. I eventually picked one of the “sympathetic to both” options.
But it was the “JOYCE NO/BECKY NO” that really resonated with me.
It’s very interesting that, as Willis commented on Twitter, that the poll very much runs counter to the impression I’m getting from the comments./
Nice to see people sympathyze with Becky.
(I liked the pool, but I was waited this discussion to be on AmItheAsshole thread in Reddit).
My question is how on Earth is anyone landing in the pro Becky club right now.
Especially considering that if you switched Becky out for Joyce’s dad or made this the Becky’s dad reacted to Becky, everyone would be bandwagoning on how abusive they were towards their daughter for changing their beliefs and not accepting their process of dealing with that.
But because it’s her “best friend” and a popular character the abusive behavior is written off as just a part of her journey.
It’s funny how the religious majority gets to claim that they’re abusive behavior is non-abusive when it suits them and it’s profitable. But push back against that and your villain.
OTOH, it really does seem like some people aren’t considering the actual characters or their words or actions and just deciding “this character is religious and therefore bad and wrong.”
Hence Willis’s “atheism was a mistake” comment on Twitter about the self-righteousness (their words not mine, though I definitely agree) of certain people in the comments.
I voted Joyce Did Nothing Wrong but saying it out loud makes me feel like I’m Pat Boivin clearly stating to the objections of his friends that it’s wrong to get a game store worker to reserve a console for him that “it’s different when it’s me because I want it.”
(Un)related: is it just me or has the “Dorothy just came for the cake” vote been creeping up lately?
I voted ‘don’t judge either but my sympathies are with Joyce,’ but it’s very close. They’re both utter disasters taking this the worst way possible, and I feel for them both because it’s a bad situation to be in and it’s one they’ve both been building towards over time without realizing that was what they were building towards.
Same!
Go team “they’re both wrong but Joyce is slightly less wrong”!
Where’s the “I think one is mostly right with some flaws, and the other is mostly wrong with some understandable grievances” option? Are nuanced opinions only allowed if you agree everyone is mostly in the same boat? 😛
I guess if I have to say both are wrong or both are right (because neither is flawless or without any merit), I’ll go with both wrong; Joyce less wrong. Joyce wasn’t wrong to say what she said in the room, but her responses have not been productive in addressing the situation. Though it’s honestly hard for me to see her having the maturity and eloquence to address this situation any better given her situation. That doesn’t make her less wrong, but I do have more sympathy for why she’s screwing up here.
On the other hand, Becky was perfectly fine being hurt when hearing that and it’s fine for her to be upset about Joyce not being honest with her. However, she has repeatedly escalated things and made things far more personal than they need to be with personal attacks directed at Joyce specifically. She’s also falling right in with some really problematic religious rhetoric that’s practically designed to alienate her from Joyce and pull Becky back towards her church. This is also understandable, and I’d probably blame her upbringing more than her, but it’s still wrong and much worse than anything Joyce has done.
The results of the poll are simultaneously disappointing and unsurprising. Joyce said the first Mean Thing ™ so Becky gets far more leeway, and the fact that Joyce’s statement wasn’t aimed at Becky or meant for her to hear doesn’t matter. Nor does the fact that Becky has thrown back vitriol significantly worse in this very conversation and has thrown worse at Dorothy on a daily basis for most of the time we’ve seen them together. Plus, Joyce said the Mean Thing ™ about Becky’s religion, which is culturally accepted the worst possible Mean Thing ™ someone could say. Speaking of religion, people are naturally going to gravitate towards the religious or areligious person based on their biases and religious people far outnumber areligious people.
Interesting points! I like that you’re suggesting perhaps less reasoned, more instinctual reasons why people might favour Becky, both formal (it may be easier to read Joyce as having “striked first”) and social (religious folks may read Becky more sympathetically).
Do the religious outnumber the atheists in the DOA readership though? I’ve actually long wondered what the demographic breakdown of this comic’s readership/commentership is like and thought about putting up a little survey to get an idea. Maybe some other time .
Very interesting points.
Thanks for writing them down. 🙂
The chain reaction has started. Everyone on a 10-mile radius should evacuate to the nearest emotional bunker.
When does she get to go back to class then, Becky? I stopped caring about the rest of the argument because it’s super obvious that neither are on the same page, but that last line seems… I don’t even know the word I’m looking for. I almost want to say threatening but we all know Becky wouldn’t really DO anything so I still don’t know.
It’s a passive aggressive jab. It’s basically like ‘why don’t you do us both a favour and stay out of my presence’. It is hostile without indicating further desire to actually argue.
Just gonna pop in and say that these characters are still kids. That’s not an excuse for their actions, and it for many I’m sure, an unsatisfactory explanation. They’re still responsible for what they do, of course, and they’ll suffer through failure and consequence, hopefully learning from it. Seems like this comic often kicks the hive for alot of folks fairly often (I enjoy it and generally consider it to be engaging an well-written), and though I struggle to tell when things are genuinely heated or more grounded, especially through text as opposed to speech, I hope some of the folks here can step away from this and take a breath. I don’t mean to tell anyone how to engage with fiction they enjoy, or to say I don’t sometimes make the same mistakes, I only mean to say that some of the interactions here seem more aggressive than usual. Regarding the characters themselves, I understand that for some hating or vilifying a fictional character is a means of relief, and I hope that’s all it is. To make devils out of traumatized children for their mistakes seems to me a wholly unhealthy and hurtful way of approaching the subject, and is bound to make some feel hurt and/or become defensive. Rattled on too long now, point being be mindful of each other, some folks connect to characters or their experiences on a more personal level and are going to react in ways that may seem out of left field. Other folks might just be here to talk smack about fictional folks ‘cause they don’t think they’re hurting anyone. Either way, if you feel your blood jumping, might be a good moment to step away and thibk before engaging. Hope ya have a good day now, gonna slink on outta the comments.
Thank you for this.
Excellent post. Thank you!
Oh, the joys of a story where people are all flawed and neither side of a conflict are really “right”, but instead both fall flat to their own shortcomings and lack of perspective.
Wow, Joyce managed to insult their friendship, Becky’s faith, Dina and Becky Herself in one swoop.
Truly impressive. The sad part here isn’t that Joyce lost her faith, it’s that she won’t accept anyone else having some. For someone like Becky, who’s been through a LOT it’s the only thing that hasn’t failed her.
I’m not saying their friendship is over but they need to talk it out.
They both need some time and space to cool down first, then they can try to talk it out. Too soon and they’ll just set each other off again.
I hope this was Becky realizing Joyce just told her “I don’t understand how you can keep the faith when you’ve been handed every reason in the world not to”, and recognizing they need that cooldown space if this is going to go anywhere.
Agreed.
If she had dropped that last line, she probably would’ve had a very cogent argument, but she had to lash out with that last bit.
The thing is, Becky is accusing Joyce that her faith was superficial and only about feeling that you are better than others but that’s just not true.
Joyce wants to be a good person and that “doesn’t deserve Hell” line exemplifies it. I imagine learning about the treatment of gay people by Christianity was an awakening point for many people, including myself. We started questioning how good is a faith if totally innocent people are treated like that.
Joyce wishes to be a good person. We have seen many examples of that. She acted according to her faith for most of her life because she didn’t know any better, she had no other frame of reference. It took her mere months of being exposed to non-Fundie people to completely change her world view. She is frustrated, as can be seen in this arc, because her ENTIRE life foundation collapsed and she is trying to build something new from scratch.
She is frustrated with Becky because the Fundie religion ruined her life, it killed her mother, it made her father the maniac that he was. Joyce can’t understand how can Becky still cling to something that just keeps hurting her.
As some commenters have been pointing out, Becky and Joyce have been talking past each other for a little while now – what Joyce isn’t seeing is that Becky isn’t fundie anymore, and hasn’t been for months and months.
I’m fully going to acknowledge myself as the In Too Deep Guy because *gestures broadly at like eight million words written in the last week*, but I don’t really understand the comments like Joyce definitely believed her faith made her superior and she’s blaming Becky for her loss of faith, as these are the words being said in a conversation between two people who
A. Not only fundamentally the other’s belief in God, they think the other believed and acted the same way as them.
B. Have never fought in their lives.
I just feel like we’ve been too devoted to the literal words of this argument that we’re processing it like it’s about how Joyce can be an atheist but she’s not allowed to be mean, and ‘being mean’ is definitely the most important part.
Like, sometimes stories are not about proving a point, there’s not always a moral lesson or objective moral reading where Joyce learns she just has to stop being so danged Problematic, sometimes it’s just about falling down on a big spiral of despair and anger where there’s no way out until something important gets broken and there’s no going back.
not only fundamentally misunderstands the other’s belief in God*
I can understand where the superiority complex accusations are coming from (‘what I’ve been taught is what is right and everyone else is wrong’), but I don’t think that was actually her genuinely held mindset. More like it came with the territory.
That particular line from Joyce was “when it came down to it, I chose you above everything else”, just phrased in the worst way possible.
What Joyce was taught was right and everyone else is wrong, except that doesn’t mean what it sounds like.
If Becky had said this it would be outrageously egotistical, because Becky processes her faith as something malleable surrounding a core of God’s unending love for her. Becky acknowledges that everything besides that is subject to change if it is sufficiently contradicted, and Becky wouldn’t have the slightest problem with this because her faith in God is the only part of it that cannot be changed.
Joyce’s beliefs weren’t correct, Joyce’s rulebook of verifiable truths was correct. Even apart from the reality that Joyce has been almost zealously kind to everyone even at her fundiest, like it takes an entire day for her to get over being wigged out by Dorothy being an atheist and just accepting that she’s a good person and quickly finding herself chafing under the idea of her precious cinnamon roll burning in Hell so she hopes there’s a nicer Hell for her, Joyce didn’t lord her superiority in her faith in the same way someone can’t really lord their superiority in believing that math is actually real.
You don’t believe in physics, you don’t have faith in gravity. They’re just there and someone really smart put the work into explaining why they’re real, except Joyce’s really smart person was her mom and dad and what was explained as real was fire-breathing dinosaurs.
That kinda went better than I expected. I thought for sure this would last longer and turn into a much bigger argument between Becky and Joyce.
What’s really tragic about all this is that Joyce and Becky are being divided by the same experience. What Joyce doesn’t seem to be able to understand about Becky and Becky about Joyce is that their personal experiences of the same events have had opposite effects on them.
Joyce has lost her faith because she cannot accept the existence of God that condemns Becky’s sexuality and who seems to enable people like Ross and Carol to behave in the way they do.
Conversely, everything that has happened to Becky – the whole Techicolor superhero comic experience of her two abductions, finding Dina and a group of supporters at Indiana U – all confirmed her faith in a just, loving God who protects those who have faith in Him.
Sadly, the whole thing could have been avoided if they had just talked to each other about it. Both of them have been going through faith transitions–Joyce to agnosticism / atheism, Becky to liberal Christianity–but neither knew it, because they stopped talking about religion entirely.
If Joyce hadn’t been afraid of Becky’s reaction (namely, this reaction), she might have expressed her doubts, and Becky could have explained that she didn’t believe in the whole hellfire version of Christianity, and they could have found common ground.
Communication is good, folks.
I know I’ll forever be in the minority about this, but I think Joyce should have talked to Becky when the subject of her mom in heaven was brought up. Joyce was trying to be sensitive and Becky indicated that she wanted the truth instead. It would have been a much calmer moment and Becky wouldn’t have to find out Joyce was an atheist by walking in on her mocking believers.
To be clear, Becky wanting the truth was her saying that Joyce had Joyce Nonsense in her head and Becky was going to force it out.
Like, maybe it’s not about Becky, maybe Joyce was just not ready.
And maybe Becky found out like this because their existing dynamic of Becky being wildly possessive of Joyce finally had a downside.
Was Joyce ever going to be ready? Or was she just going to keep putting this off until Becky found out by accident?
The one thing I can guarantee is that Becky is not going to blame herself and her possessiveness for what just happened.
Would Joyce eventually develop a worldview that allows her to square Becky’s faith with her lack of one? Like, inevitably, yeah.
It’s just it’d take a million years and the days in this series last three months.
Joyce wouldn’t have been ready on her own within a sane amount of time (like… years). If she’d been able to discuss this with a good sounding board, she would’ve become ready over the timeskip.
Maybe that’s Joyce’s prerogative and “inconveniences Becky” isn’t something that needs to factor in.
I’m just now realizing how infantilizing the “Joyce-Nonsense” comment would have felt. Like, maybe it was meant as a quirky way of referring to her dilemma (i.e. “you always work things up in your head that end up being no big deal”), but knowing what we know now about Joyce’s struggle with Atheism, calling it straight up nonsense like she was trying to avoid eating a green bean that touched her mashed potatoes probably would have made me not want to talk about whatever it was even more.
There’s a definite thing of even Joyce’s friends treating her anxieties as funny and ridiculous quirks… when to Joyce, they’re clearly deeply distressing. The food one in particular is a prime example – on a good day, she can banter about it and find it amusing, so people think it’s fair game. But then we also see her talking to Booster about bringing lunch to Sarah and trying not to think about Sarah eating the burrito, and that seems both very sincere (she’s not on the playful banter friendship level with Booster the way she is with Dorothy or Becky or Jacob) and very ‘oh god Joyce you need to talk to someone about your anxiety disorder.’ I totally get where Becky thinks ‘Joyce Nonsense’ is acceptable ground, but yeah, I can also see Joyce finding it draining over time, especially when she genuinely is grappling with something awful. (And having another issue on her mind seems to exacerbate the anxiety for more mundane things like having a dead toenail fall off.)
I don’t really expect this to change, because speaking as someone else with an anxiety disorder you do in fact have to joke sometimes about how COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS your anxiety comes off as to outsiders looking in and/or yourself a day removed from the anxiety, and that aspect of Joyce is at least somewhat autobiographical as well. But it is something where, if the plot ever led down ‘Joyce gets actively pissed at her friends for making jokes at her expense,’ it would make a lot of sense and I’d be very much on Joyce’s side.
So yeah, it probably did, but also I think people joking about her thing about food touching other food probably weighs on her over time. We know she has at least a little anxiety about her diet making her look immature, and digs about her eating off the kids menu can’t help.
This reminds me of an It’s Walky! storyline.
Walky is dating Dina at the time and Joyce bets him money that he can’t stop being, well, Walky for an entire week.
And he does, actually. He stops slouching, he pretties up his appearance, he gussies up his vocabulary, and Dina is all over him. He stops being Walky, so Joyce eats a whole bunch of gross stuff to make a big poo that Walky is incredibly excited to see.
(look just roll with it)
Joyce declares herself the winner and as Walky is giving her the money, Jason steps in and says Walky won. Yes, Walky is a a loud dipshit all the time, but he doesn’t pretend he’s something he’s not, he’s aware of who he wants to be and what he has to do to achieve it, and he doesn’t tell other people how to live their lives.
Walky is Walky, and it’s wrong to try and force him to be something he’s not and has no desire to be on the grounds of it being better on someone else’s say so.
It ends with Joyce beating Walky up and declaring herself the victor anyway as well as smart, beautiful and queen of the ponies, because It’s Walky! was good like that.
OTOH a lot of the time it is “Joyce nonsense” and she needs that. I’m sure that approach between the two of them has helped her any number of times in the past. This time it turned bad.
Most recent example would be without someone rolling over her Joyce nonsense, she’d never have gotten glasses.
Okay but.
Maybe Joyce should have just put up with it until she couldn’t anymore and had to decide for herself to do something instead of being mommed at.
I know she’s a cartoon character and was having a cartoony reaction, as in I don’t think that was actually indicative of Dorothy being Like That so much as it was Rule of Funny, but, like, in a realistic context (and I think Walky being a huge bag of dicks about it the entire time made it a lot less funny), you can’t actually drag your same-age friend to something they don’t want to do, know matter how much of a comedy screwball they are.
Yeah, it’s one of those things where what Joyce really needs is someone to diagnose the fact that she has an anxiety disorder that tends towards avoidance even when the problem is LITERALLY UNAVOIDABLE and work with her on how to recognize that tendency, disrupt the anxious thought pattern, and reroute it to more productive ways to deal with said pattern. At the moment her friends are picking up the slack, but because it’s Joyce I’m not sure they all recognize this is, like, a problem. That causes Joyce incredible distress even if it sounds silly that she can’t stand the idea of food touching other food. Or you get ‘ask, it doesn’t get done’ as the way to get anything productive done rather than ‘yeah someone has to spend 15 minutes debating this with Joyce, but that means next time it’ll take less time because Joyce will recognize it and catch herself, hopefully.’ (Again, competent, trauma-informed therapist really needs to be here because it definitely sucks for Joyce’s friends to spend fifteen minutes arguing her into ‘you need your eyes checked and this will not end the world’ or make an appointment and drag her there for her.)
And how does Becky react when she comes to Joyce, all wound up with “Becky Nonsense”, and is told that it’s exactly/only that, and she should just do what she wants?
Yeah.
I’m glad she fought back.
This is when David is at his best. The christian isn’t all wrong and the atheist isn’t all correct.
And vice versa. These ideas are more complex than “huh drrr you believe in sky god” and “huh drrr you’re going to hell”.
Good work at showing the struggle people go through in trying to be decent people in different ways. Loving this.
And the art is absolutely amazing too!
Aaaahh collage. The best setting to have drama that will test friends ships and make you change into a more honest person (sorta). Totally worth the
$60,000 of debt and a useless degree.
I am an off and on reader, did Joyce ever tell Becky about Ryan? I feel that also contextualizes this argument. Joyce believed Christians were all good people that she could trust. Experience proved that wrong with her family, her church community, and just other christians generally. Becky isn’t the only one who was harmed buying into that belief system. Joyce was a big believer in “purity culture” and post-Ryan the only man she felt safe with was Ethan (which she stopped seeing after Becky came out to her). Her and Becky are both so young, I think some forget how college is where people develop into adults. It’s through really big conflicts like this with long held value systems from childhood. I just wonder if Becky, once she calms down and receives a real actual apology, will be able to be there for Joyce. It’s quite possible given her own experiences with her faith, she might not be…
Joyce got Sarah to tell Becky about Ryan: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/story/
She had Sarah tell her and that’s why when Becky threw a party for Joyce it was in her room, with only people Joyce approved, and was intended to be alcohol free, to create a party experience, with no risk of a stranger trying to hurt her.
Go Joyce, let her understand the struggles you’ve been through.
Again, it’s not like Joyce is wrong. Becky’s character is… weird. Of the two of them, Joyce feels much more like a real person (I suspect because there’s a lot of self insertion there).
Becky is probably harder to accept as realistic if you haven’t met anyone like her whose religion isn’t something they will just drop or that will break because bad things happen.
Joyce isn’t wrong because she can’t be about why she has lost her own faith. But she isn’t right either because it isn’t something to Becky that is a problem or something she is clinging to out of desperation. In Becky’s eyes, God is sending the solutions (Joyce, girlfriend, friends, motherly mentor figures) and warped followers with flawed teachings and bad people are the problems, not God as an actual concept.
I didn’t meant Becky’s clinging on to Christianity would be the unrealistic part. Her behaviour and manners come across as… cartoonishly exaggerated to me.
That last frame. Is Joyce thinking, “Who do you think you are?” Or is it, “Fuck you, asshole”?
If I were Joyce, it would be ‘Welp, bye, Becky.’ Followed by contemplation of the add/drop window for classes.
I said this on Patreon regarding Becky and Joyce’s friendship and I was wondering what other people think of it.
It is a scenario wherein Becky is dependent on Joyce to remain her Joyce, and that Becky does not give to Joyce the same level of emotional stability that Joyce gives to her.
Except I don’t think it’s as simple as Becky cruelly and ignorantly taking from Joyce, I think Joyce has proven herself to be Becky’s shield against constant cruelty from everyone who was supposed to care and nurture for her, something that has obviously traumatized Becky and so Joyce herself has decided that Becky is so vulnerable that she needs to be able to unload every emotion that crosses her mind at Joyce, but Becky can’t do the same for Joyce because Joyce has decided she can’t burden Becky with her own problems.
Over the series, does Joyce ever tell Becky the things that upset her that would require a level of strong emotional support on Becky’s part?
Because Joyce did try that one time and not really on purpose, it was just expressing anger and Becky walked into the room expecting Joyce to tell her not to fuck Dina like she already decided she shouldn’t. Dina’s birthday party has the now pretty relevant argument they had where Joyce said the thing that was on her mind and Becky blamed her for it, except that’s maybe the one thing where Becky can’t be supportive towards Joyce and otherwise if Joyce had talked about a separate problem, if she had been willing to give to Becky the ability to be a rock that Joyce has assigned herself as Becky’s and Becky rolls with this as “this is my Joyce and I can trust her with every thought in my head”, I think Becky could be able to listen.
And now that I think about it, that has happened, just not because Joyce openly and willingly relied on her. Becky learned about Joyce being attacked by Ryan through Sarah (Joyce being in the room, okaying it, and ignoring it not because of Becky but because she herself didn’t want to think about it) while trying to take Joyce to a wild frat party with kegstands, and so Becky immediately began offering support, apologized for kissing her a few days prior (as in Becky reflected on an action she had done to Joyce and was horrified to discover she might have triggered something traumatic in Joyce), and then organized the dorm party so that Joyce could still be happy and get an experience she wanted, but within a safe space.
And then what happened the next day? Toedad.
Like, as I’ve been thinking about the ideas of Becky depending on Joyce that Joyce herself has been feeding, I wonder if Joyce solidified those thoughts because of him. Yes shit had gone wrong, but Joyce just needed everyone to come together and be nice and listen to Jesus. Toedad had done wrong, but it had yet to become something they couldn’t make right.
And then he pointed a gun at them and kidnapped Becky,and then their congregation and her own mom and older brother all went “to be faaaaaaiiiiiir”, and I don’t think Joyce can accept anything she’s gone through as bad enough that she can rely on Becky without somehow undermining that pain, that Becky needs her support for her trauma and Joyce cannot burden Becky.
I think it has been an “all take, no give” thing, except Becky isn’t giving because Joyce won’t tell her what she needs.
I’ve disagreed with you a lot over the past few days, but I totally agree with this.
Yeah, there’s a reason I brought up ‘Joyce knows, Becky doesn’t’ about how badly their community at large failed them. How can you tell someone who was just kidnapped by her dad at gunpoint that your mom said the exact same thing afterwards without it seeming like trivializing what she just went through? She can tell Becky her dad was bailed out, because that’s immediately relevant to Becky’s life… but actually looking at the texts they exchanged, Joyce only ever says ‘he was bailed out’ (and the paperwork, as we know, credited Blaine,) not ‘my mom called me with this incredibly guilt-trippy, awful language about how she bailed him out’. With the divorce, I think Becky DID find out about the church’s role there afterwards… but like with Ross’s last conversations with Joyce, this would have happened after the kidnapping and his death, where there were more than a few bigger traumas in play. I’m not entirely sure how much Joyce internalized ‘you were the most obedient’ in the wake of the kidnapping, because she in particular had such a no-good very-bad day.
All of which makes it sympathetic for Joyce not to bring it up to Becky – so many of her compounding traumas come right off the heels of Becky’s more obviously traumatic ones – but mean Becky would have been offering support if she’d known, but instead the cultural conflict has been boiling over in Joyce’s brain while Becky only knows part of the story.
Yeah like I never thought about this but:
If Joyce says to Becky “my mom is lionizing what happened as acceptable and righteous!” and “I can’t believe my mom and older brother are telling me I’ve acted out!” she’s, like, talking about herself in a scenario that started with “Ross kidnapped Becky at gunpoint.” Even if it doesn’t really work that way, as in Joyce still had horrible shit happen to her because of Ross like having a gun pointed at her face, she can’t say it in front of Becky because “Becky had it harder than me.”
And this is why I find those kind of trauma contests really troublesome. Trivializing someone else’s pain goes both ways (though it’s often unintentional or even without you even being involved/aware) and the mentality of “I can’t complain because others have it worse” means there’s plenty of hurt getting ignored, and assumes that emotional support is a zero-sum game.
I’m reminded of the lyrics to one of my favorite Brown Bird songs:
“Lord knows that everybody’s got a cross to bear
And I see no use in trying to contrast and compare
There’s always someone being slaughtered
By a bigger stack of splinters somewhere”
Yeah. The worst part is, I think if Becky walked in right after the phone call and asked what happened and managed to get an answer out of Joyce (‘Mom said he was only doing what he thought was best and that she’d die for me,’) I think Becky WOULD have recognized why Joyce was upset and reacted well in the moment. But now that time’s passed and they’re having this fight about something that’s been building up for ages but took Becky by surprise, Joyce bringing it up now comes off as her using Becky’s trauma against her to win an argument. Understandable every step of the way, and still very, very sad.
Yeah. 🙁
Joyce “starts to express a need, and in fact possibly an existential crisis.”
Becky “How dare you have an existential crisis didn’t you know the world revolves around me? How dare you have changing beliefs or Express those existential quandaries to me, especially those that challenge me.”
Honestly I’m kind of at a loss for how anyone is still trying to bend over backwards to take Becky’s side on this one. Because she is being if not outright abusive very close to being so, while treating Jo.
e as if she isn’t even a person with needs or wants that could extend to different things than Becky needs or wants.
This is put me firmly in the let the friendship burn camp Joyce would be better off without Becky.
And to be clear, most of the “to be faaaaiiiir” part happened when Becky went back to La Porte with the ambition of being emotional support.
I wonder how it would’ve gone down if Becky had stayed behind. A lot of what made that sequence work was actually witnessing people being a shit to Becky, to her face. (And it was one of the first major cracks in Hank’s ability to keep it together, too.)
Joyce is disappointed with her dad. Becky’s dad wanted her dead.
Joyce is very angry with her mom and may not see her soon. Becky’s mom is dead.
Joyce feels her world is coming apart, including her religious beliefs. Becky’s world has come apart, but she has adapted her beliefs.
Now Becky’s best friend is walking away from her and hanging out with the frivolous Liz. Becky can’t take many more losses.
Becky is around all the time. Liz is around ONE MORNING. It’s ‘a loss’ to Becky that Joyce goes to hang out with the friend she may only get to see in person for a few hours a year instead of climbing on the person who lives pretty much next door that she spends several hours with per day, every day?
If that’s actually how Becky feels, absent the rest of this shitstorm, all I can say is YIKES.
Yeah, I suspect that’s a tiny bit of jealousy and fear of abandonment, loudly covered over with her “I’m Joyce’s best friend” shtick, and probably mostly genuinely wanting to meet this Facebook friend of Joyce’s she’d heard about.
This feels like way too charitable a reading given Dorothy’s own commentary and the juxtaposition of Becky being unapologetically herself and what Becky now sees what that means for Joyce.
Becky is confident about some things, but fantastically insecure about others. But “no one wants to see that”, so she pretends to be Wacky Becky. But that’s not being dishonest (to Joyce or anyone else), that’s just, um, HEY LOOK OVER THERE
420 comments, woooooooooooooooooooooo
Sorry, I had to 😀
I know it’s more hurtful because she overheard her friend saying it but… Hey Becky if you wanna be a Christian in this world you gotta build up thicker skin. People are gonna call those beliefs stupid, and you can’t lose your shit every time someone does.
Also love how Becky has some of the most UNHEALTHY attachments of the group and is WILDLY possessive but everyone else is like “but Joyce said she was stupid and that’s worse :(” come on now y’all. Becky more or less had this coming. She ain’t exactly the kind of person I’d trust my deepest conflicts with based on her behavior.
I REALLY hope Becky takes any time at all to consider *why* Joyce might hide this from her.
Also love how Becky has some of the most UNHEALTHY attachments of the group and is WILDLY possessive but everyone else is like “but Joyce said she was stupid and that’s worse :(”
I mean yeah this is true.
I feel like Dorothy (and I mostly pin this on Dorothy even if Joe and Sarah were at least tokenly agreeing with the thought process) and by extension the members of the commentariat who have parsed this out as “Joyce did wrong because Becky is sad” not as a tiny piece of a much greater picture but the full totality of this entire fight and what’s truly important here, that Joyce needs to go Make It Right and Be Better…
I mean that’s wack, I dunno how else to phrase it. Life is more complex than whether or not you’re a bad person because you inconvenience someone with your pain.
sorry but joyce is right
she is an asshole but she is right
I’ll say it again, Becky isn’t upset that Joyce doesn’t believe, she’s upset that she looks down on her for still believing. There is a huge difference there.
Literally the last panel of yesterday’s strip showed that Becky directly blames Joyce herself for her newfound atheism that Joyce herself still cannot bring herself to refer to as atheism.
I took the last panel of yesterday’s strip to mean that Becky thinks Joyce is being self righteous, and that she always tended to be, Atheist or not.
Does Joyce look down on Becky? Because most of what she’s said and done seems a lot more like looking down on herself and beating herself up for having been so stupid for so long without someone like Becky ever entering her mind.
@James Yeah but Becky doesn’t see that, and Joyce doubling down here doesn’t refute her either.
It feels pretty weird that everyone here seems to be pretty anti-christian-faith.
I guess i come from england, where Christianity doesnt mean homophobia or xenophobia or creationism or anything like that at my church, but there’s not only two options (extreme christian/atheist)
I really relate to becky using her religion to cope with the trauma of losing both her parents and community so it kinda saddens me to see people calling becky out for having a belief
We also have A LOT of different types of churches, and our country had a healthy amount of quakers and diests in our formation. The latter is ironic because constitutionalists tend to think the founding fathers are great… and conservative… and all super religious. No one wants to talk about how Benjamin was a player or Jefferson only thought white rich landowners deserved to be educated and that is why he said only the educated should vote. :). I think most people in the country are spiritually inclined but not religious. (athiest married to a polythiest and my child’s God father is Christian. mom’s strait up agnostic, rest of the family is mostly 47 flavors of christian)
Well, in fairness, your country gave us both John Nelson Darby (who got no traction in England but kickstarted the evangelical movement in America) and Richard Dawkins (who hit his stride as a celebrity atheist scientist).
And also, a good chunk of our founding transplants were religious refugees from England. Like, “let’s not repeat our persecuted past” is why the First Amendment enshrines religious expression as sacrosanct.
Becky states that the important stuff of Christianity isn’t about nonsensical matters like the earth being only 6,000 years old. Granted. But isn’t forgiveness supposed to be a big part of Christianity? I’m not seeing a lot of it here. Becky tried to get back together with her homophobic father whose crimes against humanity are far worse than Joyce’s implication that Becky is stupid for her religious beliefs. So she could forgive him but she can’t forgive Joyce even though Joyce has already apologized? Just shows how Christianity actually fails at one of its core tenets, doesn’t it?
Forgiveness is a big part of Christianity, and given a little separation, Becky might come to that realization and forgive Joyce. Expecting anyone to always forgive people the second they *perceive* a slight to them is asking way too much though.
This is the fun part about the religious card because you don’t have to justify the fact that you believe something by faith you can use it as a bludgeoning tool to be upset at everyone around you and act like you have a reason to be upset when you’re the one being irrational.
Religious ideas flexible on purpose so that you can persuade yourself from guilt or negative imagery while being upset and Superior feeling to everyone else.
Literally earnestly I think it’s just memetic evolution and that the ideologies that do not allow for the flexibility to ignore specific tenants and create your own made up standard die off in competition with those that give individuals the padding to make up whatever they want as the standard for why they’re right and everyone else is wrong so they can be upset.
So it’s not like anybody intentionally made religions that way it’s just that the religions that aren’t that way die off. But it doesn’t make any surviving religion more palatable and in fact it shows the great hypocrisy of religious believers.
Cuz you know all these beliefs and structure are super sacred when I want them to be but completely fungible when I don’t want them to be and you have to take them serious and not upset me in ways that I’m not going to tell you before I’m already upset.
If there was ever a mimetic construct that has taught more people within the history of our world bad epistemological tools to intentionally hamper them and trap them with an ideologies then religion I don’t even have a clue how you could create one better.
Insufferable Becky.
Bingo.
Some people think “Oh, you just don’t like religion because it’s different” or think people are just anti-Christian. They say “Oh, atheists are just their own religion” despite no founding document, no dogma, etc. Apaprently “disliking other ideologies or behaviors” is apparently a religion if you don’t immediately agree and understand why that person objects to them.
Nope. Many of us dislike religion because we see it as a bunch of ideologies that have evolved to survive by any means necessary, often at the expense of people, both believers and not. We see faith as epistemologically rolling the dice with your beliefs, without any care for the truth. It’s like closing your eyes and swinging a baseball bat around and then acting surprised when some people doing that hurt others and pointing to people who are lucky to not cause harm as proof that blind baseball bat swinging is fine.
Becky’s behavior is so irritating here because she’s doing and representing all of the most insidious parts of religion. Compartmentalization. Flexibly deciding which beliefs are important and which aren’t based on convenience. Blaming bad things related to religion on the individual while crediting religion with the good things everyone, even non-believers, do.
Becky doesn’t seem to believe anything particularly awful, but her thought processes are the same thinking that leads to and perpetuates all of the worst we see in religion. She’s lucky, but it’s just that: luck. She might not be so lucky next time she rolls those dice, and she won’t be able to tell the difference. To be frank, she’s only gotten to where she is because her sexual orientation conflicting with her faith forced her to re-roll the dice. We have no reason to think she was that different from Joyce before running away from Anderson.
Joyce, on the other hand, is done rolling the dice. She’s putting them down and walking away. She sees the problems not just with a specific belief, but with the whole system of faith. When faith comes into conflict with her love for her friends, she chooses her friends, and she’s had to do that enough that she’s done considering faith as an option in the first place.
I feel for Becky as an individual because she’s been hurt, too, and I honestly see her as more of a victim of her faith than a perpetrator. And that’s generally my view of most religious people. Hate the game, not the player (though when players are in part creating and maintaining the game, even the negative parts, they also have some hand in it, so it’s not quite that simple). However, Becky is a fictional character, and her behavior, her beliefs, and what she represents are just… Ugh…
Yep in short Becky’s and abusiveness victim repeating her abusive treatment on others.
And she doesn’t even realize it because she’s put it under the banner of Faith which makes it okay.
Pernicious ideological constructs, making echoing harm across time creating abusers who create abusers who create abusers.
I think she’ll get there. Forgiving someone immediately when you’re still mad isn’t real forgiveness. It’s acting. Becky needs time away from Joyce to process this. She didn’t say she’d never speak to Joyce again, just that she doesn’t want to see her in the next few hours.
Yeah but honestly a friend who treated my own existential crisis of my loss of faith so flippantly and as if it was a personal insult to them, wouldn’t be a friend that I would keep.
That is them prioritizing their own happiness above your journey and then trying to gaslight you into being stuck into the box that they want you to be in for their comfort. That isn’t a friend, that is somebody who wants you as an unchanging trophy to make them feel comfortable.
If I was Joyce Becky wouldn’t see me again because I wouldn’t want to see Becky if she was going to act this way.
That’s a valid choice but I don’t think Joyce is that kind of person.
You’re right she’s much more likely to allow Becky to abuse her continually and not speak up for herself and 15 years down the line realize that she let a “friend” abuse her for 15 years. It’ll take Becky not living next door and their relationships growing apart from time, but in less Becky actually starts showing she cares about Joyce, this is just a long-term abuse relationship.
With Becky being the abuser. Which considering how much abused he’s been through you’d think maybe she would take two seconds to think about what she’s putting others through.
But no Becky is most important. Other people aren’t allowed to have problems that distract away from Becky’s problems.
What did Joyce apologize for, exactly?
When Becky pointed out that Joyce was only sorry that she’d been overheard, Joyce didn’t deny it. When Becky asked if Joyce REALLY thought that she was an idiot for believing in God – which would have been a perfect opportunity for Joyce to rectify herself in any manner of ways, including apologizing for saying that, explaining that she meant herself and not Becky (IF in fact this is true) – Joyce did not deny that either.
Joyce isn’t sorry. Her apology, at this time, isn’t anything Becky can accept.
Not only didn’t she deny it, she started explaining why she thought Becky was stupid, using examples that Becky never thought were important and had already discarded.
She’s not he’s, damn you autocorrect.
Joyce apologized for getting caught, not for her literal words and actions that hurt Becky’s feelings. She started with “Liz wants to apologize”, then says “I’m really really sorry” without saying for what and Becky called her on it, and Becky made it clear that what’s bothering her was the “Christians are idiots” comment and Joyce steadfastly refused to apologize for that.
So no, Becky doesn’t owe her forgiveness in the heat of the moment.
Her attempts to forgive her dad happened after she’d had a LOT more time to think about shit and cool down.
There’s a lot of stuff going on but I want to focus on this bit specifically:
Joyce did actually apologize, and she is apologizing for the reason of causing Becky pain through something she said (which is a way more complex thing in of itself, but let’s roll with that because it’s definitely how Joyce processes it).
Becky tells her she is sorry she was caught, so whatever Joyce is thinking, that Becky is sad because of something she did and she has to make it right while three other people go tell her to make it right, doesn’t actually matter. Joyce’s apology is inherently insincere because Becky has decided as such.
Why would Joyce keep apologizing for this when Becky has already told Joyce she is not actually sorry? If she said sorry to that, do you really think Becky would not go “well why’d you say it then?”
Like, at what point in time is Joyce sufficiently redeemed in Becky’s eyes before she’s allowed to explain herself?
I mean to be fair “well why’d you say it then” is a prompt for an explaination
Whether she’d accept any explanations at the moment is another question entirely, she’s clearly not in the mood to give charitable interpretations of anything Joyce says right now
Joyce has actually explained herself. The Earth isn’t actually 6000 years old, Becky. That means God isn’t real and you should know this because we both believe the same thing in the exact same way.
It’s just that Becky thinks Joyce was also capable of and already getting rid of the unimportant stuff, because Becky thinks Joyce processed her faith the same way and vice versa.
I’m going to emphasize this part is a character read (and one where the both of them are super angry and are using the same words to mean separate things that they think the other intimately understands), but the way I see it, Becky wants Joyce to apologize for failing at being a Christian, and for failing at that because she did her faith wrong and treated it as an act of superiority, and Becky thinks it’s superiority on Joyce’s part because if Becky said the words Joyce is saying, it would be self-superiority. Becky would be declaring her faith as correct, that no one else got it but her, and Joyce’s failure is in losing her faith because she did it wrong. Except Joyce’s faith or lack thereof was never the motivation factor, it was Joyce following the rulebook her upbringing told her was objective fact.
Basically she’d be Mary is what I’m saying.
I’ve been avoiding weighing in here, but Becky has previously declared her faith was correct and that no one else got it but her. In the arc about her mom’s birthday, she looks up to the sky and says “Hi Mom, me, Joyce and Dina, who I bet is SUPER PISSED that this is all real.”
Like, she straight up does think that Dina is simply wrong about the part where Heaven exist.
Well yeah but that’s what faith is. Becky believes that God is there and Dina is going to look really silly before she and God make friends and talk about cool dinosaurs and Dina meets all the dinosaurs that are also in Heaven and then Dina and Becky and Becky’s mom will all ride dinosaurs together.
I am right and I think I am right should be kind of the same thing, (I do not comprehend faith and therefore cannot make commentary on it myself) but the difference is that Becky feels it and perceives reality as one watched over by a loving God who performed miracles for her.
Yep. Joyce hasn’t apologized for that because she isn’t sorry. When Becky gave her a chance to apologize for calling her an idiot for believing in God – Joyce deliberately chose not to take it.
Here’s a question.
First off we can all be idiots about things specific things that we’re just wrong about because we are not currently either parsing it correctly or informed enough. So I’m an idiot daily on plenty of things.
That being said should Joyce apologize if she actually doesn’t think more highly of Becky’s logic parsing skills because she believes this idiotic, from her perspective, view? Should she apologize despite the fact that she is not of the opinion that Becky is being smart by making the decision that she is?
Put very simply should Joyce lie about how she feels about people who are religious to Becky’s face cuz Becky got mad?
Also, is it fair to frame Joyce’s feelings on the idiocy of one specific belief as Joyce’s entire feelings on Becky? Because that’s what “Yes” would have done. Even though I think Joyce may 100% believe theism is idiotic and doesn’t give Becky any special dispensation, I don’t think Joyce believes Becky is 100% an idiot.
Like you said, we can all be idiots about various things. But we can simultaneously be super intelligent and knowledgeable on other things. Trying to turn someone’s feelings on one belief into a personal insult of your entire person is really immature and seems to imply that you don’t actually respect people as people even if you disagree with them. It implies that instead, they have to disagree with you in a palatable way.
So no, I don’t think Joyce should lie. I also don’t think Joyce should be expected to say “Yes, I think you’re an idiot.” I wish Joyce was eloquent enough to say “I can think one belief of yours is idiotic and still respect you and value you as a friend,” but that would be expecting a bit much of her at this stage. Evasiveness is honestly better than lying or just caving to Becky interpreting what she said in the most personal way possible.
Especially considering Becky’s response to Joyce’s very serious and honest statement at the end. Joyce has a lot of growing to do to learn to navigate this sort of thing. Or Becky could grow up, but considering her ridiculous “rivalry” with Dorothy and her responses here, I don’t give that particularly good odds.
You had some very good nuanced replies, thank you.
Okay, but do you go around calling OTHER people idiots for their beliefs? Because, you do realize, that’s what Becky’s problem with Joyce right now is.
It suddenly strikes me that Joyce specifically avoided stating the reason for ditching her faith because she figured the more personal and honest reasoning would just hurt Becky even more. She didn’t actually state that until the second time Becky tried to put words into her mouth about her faith and why she no longer believed it. First telling Joyce she believed the wrong things were important and second that Joyce was at fault for believing the more judgmental side of their religion.
People are focusing so much on how much Joyce’s one inadvertent comment and hesitance to apologize hurts for Becky, but so few are acknowledging the absolute venom Becky is shooting back and how painful it must be for Joyce.
Whatever Joyce thinks of Becky’s faith, she clearly still cares deeply for her friend and doesn’t want to hurt her. I’m not sure if the same can be said for Becky. It sorta feels like Becky’s care for Joyce is contingent on Joyce behaving a certain way. When Joyce has stepped out of line, Becky seems to partially or fully withdraw that support. She did this in the past when Becky dismissed Joyce as going through a dumb phase, and she’s doing it right here. In both cases, she mic drops and leaves despite seeing that her friend is clearly upset. Has Joyce ever done that to Becky? Just bailed on her when things were uncomfortable or failed to go after Becky when she left? Has Becky ever gone after Joyce when she was upset to offer support?
Becky is constantly pressing Joyce’s buttons and pushing her out of her comfort zone, and people seem to like her for it (including Joyce to some extent). She’s also openly hostile to Dorothy, but because she puts a spunky smile on while doing so, all is forgiven. But the instant Joyce does anything that might upset Becky, the happy façade drops, and Becky is nothing but angry and distant.
When Becky showed up after running away from Anderson, it seemed like the two had a really cute and awesome friendship with tons of mutual support and love. But the more we see of things and the more I read into it, the less healthy things have felt…
Right there with ya.
…anyway, Joyce’s angry face is so angry, like I never seem…
So I had a terrifying thought earlier and wanted to share
What happens if Carol finds out?
To clarify I don’t think Becky is going to be spiteful enough to specifically seek out and tell Carol Joyce no longer believes, but I don’t think she’s going to be inclined to keep it a secret around school. Joyce might not be inclined to keep it a secret around school either to be honest since the person she was specifically hiding it from knows now.
Which means other students are likely to find out
Students like Mary
Who is absolutely spiteful enough to tell Carol if given the chance
And maybe it’s the past experience with this church group but I feel like she’d resort to some drastic measure to “save the soul” of her (so far as she knows/is willing to accept) “only” daughter
Please, don’t give Willis these ideas!
It blows my mind that people actually blame Becky for Joyce hurting her.
Few pages back someone said Becky deserves this too. Kind of disappointing to see, ngl.
Like I said on a previous page, what I think is happening is that people are projecting themselves really hard onto Joyce – and so it would hurt them too much to accept that Joyce might be in the wrong here. Also, people AGREE with Joyce that Becky is “an idiot” for believing in God – therefore, in their minds, she wasn’t wrong to say so.
Holy cheese David, those close ups are superb! Your art has come such a long way and is now so very expressive. That panel 1 Joyce is something else. Kudos to you.