same, it’s the fact that until a few days before it aired (so when it was most likely fully written and drawn) this storyline was titled “I want your revenge”.
I know right? She looked so happy about having a couple of flowers in a cup (poor girl REALLY isn’t used to being given nice things because people think she’s special and want her to be happy) and Malaya’s taking the shine off the experience…
And I suspect it’s because Malaya’s “You’re a poser” dealio comes from her “if I even am a girl” questioning, via a bit of projection and angst in the form of “You’re pretty and clearly somewhat invested in being cool, so you must be a poser because I am these things and they cause intenal conflict, so clearly if you don’t admit this about yourself it must be because you’re shallower than a mirror”… But I just want Sal to catch a break and feel loved, respected and supported.
Marcie’s not so bad, and I mean, there’s Danny, but yeah, everyone’s got their damage. “Everyone’s Got Their Damage” almost could be a DoA tagline, really.
As with so many things, there aren’t just two options.
The thing that Sal’s friend group has is more of a toxic rejection of femininity, and as such, it would be much more accurate to describe it as toxic masculinity than toxic femininity if you had to choose one of the two (which again, you don’t). Just because most of them identify as female and have a toxic trait doesn’t make it toxic femininity.
I don’t actually believe in the terms toxic masculinity or femininity, I think its a term someone made up that has no meaning and can legitimize behaviour that is, at best boorish and at worst illegal, and should be punished as such
That being said if the term is going to be used then I would think the identity of the person being toxic would be the deciding factor
Or is it just easier to decide that all toxic behaviour is masculine irregardless of the genders involved
I’ve got big news for you about language, buddy: it’s all made up. That being said, these terms do have meanings, whether you believe in them or not, and they’re not tied to the gender of the person being toxic, but rather the nature of the behavior.
Toxic masculinity is an enforcement of masculine behaviors and a rejection of performance of femininity or feminine behaviors to an unhealthy and harmful degree. We see something akin to this here in this strip with Malaya’s mocking of Sal embracing display of flowers, which is typically seen as a feminine trait.
Toxic femininity is an enforcement of feminine behaviors and a rejection of performance of masculinity or masculine behaviors to an unhealthy and harmful degree. We don’t see this in this strip at all.
I don’t see either in this strip at all. Malaya’s teasing their roommate about having flowers because flowers are often seen as cheesy and not fitting the biker stereotype. At no point does she deride flowers or Sal for being girly or feminine
@someone Yeah, I was oversimplifying a bit, that would be a better label, which goes into what I was saying earlier about there being more than two options. But given that I was getting pushback on the two of them being a thing at all, I was just starting from first principles.
I’m sorry, but your point is nonsensical, because what exactly is toxic matters. Whether one is dealing with toxic masculinity, toxic femininity, toxic controlling behaviors, and so on, these are all different things that don’t have the same solutions. It’s like saying all viruses are the same and get the exact same treatment.
Well fairy tales have their positive uses, but if one wants to they can surely turn them into provocative weapons.
Literally anything can be repurposed for toxicity’s sake, just like how someone if they really wanted to could turn just about any object into a weapon.
Aaaaaaaaaaaand when that happens, being able to recognize it for what it is is important and useful. That way it can be addressed in its specific way.
Like in your very own example, a virus that needs its own specific treatment can get it because it has its own name and is individually recognized, categorized, and understood.
Yes, Malaya is going to use whatever is handy to try and annoy Sal.
In this case, toxic masculinity is handy, because flowers are seen as girly.
Malaya is using toxic masculinity to annoy Sal.
That’s kinda all folks are saying about it so far.
Hey Wagstaff. I’m still interested in this perspective. Like, I feel like I can understand the perspective that a mind does not need gender. Also, gender is not a prerequisite for companionship. However I think it’s also worth noting (and please correct my armchair evolutionary biology here) that social grouping and cooperation is seems to be an outcome of sexual reproduction. (sexual -> shared protection of offspring -> combining efforts/ resources -> social protocol to enhance cooperation -> partaking of social benefits without requiring reproductive benefits) [yeah there’s a lot of leaps there, I’m spitballing over here.]
So, I see your point that we could move past that, in theory. However, a lot of sentiences derive pleasure and satisfaction from the companionship of a shared pairing (or moreing) that includes a strong association with a gender identity and it’s interplay with their prefered bonding psyche.
Intelligent conversation and mutual respect are a fantastic foundation for a social connection, but for many, they are not the only thing, and removing gender from the mental world reduces the colour palette of our interactions.
Out of a fascination with your perspective on this, and our earlier conversations I would like to ask more about you personally, but I don’t want to give offense by prying after an identity aspect that it appears you wish you didn’t have. And hopefully I didn’t over step in saying that much. Your dispute over the importance of physical contact to an animal (either has a fetus/newborn) or as a sexual being, is intriguing to me, though I do hope this isn’t coming across as a ” hmm this sample is interesting” so much as a curiosity about you as a person.
One’s anatomy is one thing. But gender roles, gender identity, are really shaped by surrounding culture more than anything else. What a “man” is supposed to do and look like, what a “woman” is supposed to do and look like, varies tremendously from culture to culture, and so gender really doesn’t make sense unless you define that essential context.
For instance, for the longest time in American culture, “men” were, and in many states still are, expected to earn the majority of the family’s income, whereas within the Haredim in Judaism, it’s “women” who are expected to be the primary breadwinners.
Not to mention the fact that in America, pink used to be the “boy color” and blue used to be the “girl color”, and only switched because of corporate decisions.
I also want to note that the notion that the mind has no need for gender is going a bit too far. Gender is absolutely a social construct, but it’s one that has been constructed over and over and over again. I’m unaware of any societies that have no concept of gender. Several have constructed it differently, and it’s important to understand that no society’s concept of gender is any kind of essential or “right”, but the idea that “the mind” in general has no need for gender is too narrow in scope (like saying the mind has no need for language) and is also not borne out by observation. Not everyone has a gender, and each person’s experience of gender can be different, but those are very different than the mind having no need of it at all.
Sometimes it feels like you make overly broad statements like this looking for fights.
This also seems to be drifting off into gender critical territory. If gender is nothing more than cultural constructs of what colors we like and what roles we fill socially, then we can get rid of those social constructs and let everyone wear what they want and do what they want.
Which in one direction leads to lots of non-binary acceptance, but in the other leads to claims there’s nothing deeper going on with trans people and therefore there’s no need for any kind of transition.
Language is really nothing like gender. The mind having no need for gender doesn’t mean that one can certainly choose a gender if they want to.
What seems like a “man” in one culture can very well fit the role of a “woman” in another, and vice versa.
I definitely wasn’t trying to deny people’s rights to having a gender. If someone says there’s no need for VHS tapes, are they denying people’s rights to owning VHS tapes?
I definitely welcome feedback on what I write, but attacking a straw man doesn’t help productive discussion. But don’t sweat it; we all make mistakes sometimes!
From what I can tell, people don’t “choose” gender. At least in the vast majority of cases. They just are a gender. Even if that flies in the face of what they were told they were and how society attempted to socialize them. Or, as in most cases, if it does match up.
But, more importantly, I think you’re missing a critical distinction between gender roles and gender identity. Gender roles are socially constructed – they vary broadly across time and different cultures. Gender identity isn’t socially constructed and doesn’t vary between societies – other than at the edges of how to handle those who don’t fit the gender binary.
Are people necessarily born with a gender identity, before being exposed to any cultural concept of gender?
To me at least, it’s kind of like assuming that religious faith is a natural state, that every child intrinsically has a religious identity before they even know what a “god” is.
Given that no one is unexposed to cultural concepts of gender long before they’re capable of expressing what their own is in words, it’s not easy to tell.
But that’s not really all that relevant and I don’t think the comparison to faith is at all analogous. Though if all cultures came up with the same couple of religious identities independently, then it would certainly make me wonder.
We can at least agree that gender identity and gender role are not the same thing, right? And that however gender identity is established it’s not a conscious choice in most cases and that it can be in strong conflict with societal pressure?
It’s not clear to me what in gender identity can even be considered a social construct once separated from gender role.
Exactly what definition of gender identity are you using? And under that definition, how is that distinct from “sexual identity”?
And by the way, up there, when I refer to boy/girl colors and such, I wasn’t necessarily trying to refer to gender roles as much as I was trying to refer to gender expression.
Gender identity: Personal, internal sense of what gender you are. For most this correlates to the sex they were assigned at birth, based on their genitals. For trans people of various sorts, it doesn’t.
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “sexual identity”. Usually that refers to who you’re attracted to, similar to sexual orientation, so it’s entirely distinct from gender identity.
If gender does not necessarily depend on genitals, then what does it depend on?
I might be missing something, but to me, gender identity or the discovery thereof seems to follow a kind of circular reasoning:
“I think I’m [gender] because wearing X, doing Y and having my hair Z just feel right.”
“Wearing X, doing Y and having my hair Z feel right because I’m [gender].”
Given how much X, Y and Z for every gender are highly variant across cultures around the world, it’s possible that one may discover that they are more masculine, feminine, or divergent in one culture than another simply based on X, Y, and Z.
Sorry for the multi-post, but it just seems to me that gender identity is really less a reflection of the person and what they like to do and wear and more like a label that’s given by a culture.
Yeah the who you’re attracted to sounds more like “sexual orientation” to me. I think “sexual identity” or “sex identity” refers to how comfortable you feel with your particular body/genitals.
So we really are going full gender critical here. Hopefully just out of ignorance.
In the simplest of terms, it’s not about the clothes or the hair or any of the cultural signifiers. It’s about the body. Trans people don’t take hormones and get surgeries so they can wear the clothes they want or get the haircuts they prefer, they do it because their bodies don’t feel right to them. Ranging from full on disgust and revulsion to just feeling much better with the parts that match their gender identity. Not just the obvious primary sex characteristics, but down to things like skin, hair, musculature etc.
Many trans people do play up the gendered presentation, especially at first – hair, clothes, makeup etc, because they also want to be seen as their real gender, but that’s not necessary. Some don’t conform to the cultural stereotypes. You can have a butch trans woman, for example.
Nor does a butch woman have a male gender identity, just because she presents with stereotypical male styles of hair and clothing.
This might be closer to what you’re calling “sexual identity”, but I’ve never seen sexual identity used that way and it’s what gender identity means. If you actually want to communicate it’s helpful to use terms the way they’re commonly understood.
I probably worded it wrong. Essentially someone decided that bad, or illegal, behaviour could be described as toxic masculinity or toxic femininity
What this does is almost excuse that bad behaviour and no doubt at some point in time a defence lawyer will try to use it as an excuse for their scumbag client (I think it was affluenza that was used at one point to try to mitigate some guys actions)
In summary, there’s no such thing as toxic masculinity or toxic femininity, only toxic behaviour in general
@MrSmith no you’re still wrong. There’s absolutely such a thing as both, as I laid out in reply to your other comment. ‘Someone’ describing some nebulously bad or illegal behavior as these things (that may or may not even be an accurate description, we have no way of knowing since you’re not providing any specifics about what you’re talking about) doesn’t negate the validity of the terms. Nor does it excuse anything. Neither term by nature is an excuse for anything. They’re descriptors of a way that over-policing of gender manifests.
Then maybe you should just refrain from telling other people how to use or not use words that you don’t put stock in. I’ll remind you that that’s how this thread started. You replied to Brumagem with “Why not just say toxic feminity”. If you don’t hold to the existence of either and think they’re meaningless (even after having been supplied definitions), maybe correcting other people’s usage isn’t the thing to do.
I have little respect for the idea of agreeing to disagree when one side just stonewalls, refusing to hear or supply anything. If this is how you’re going to interact on this topic, consider that you’ve contributed nothing and all you’ve done is waste everyone’s time.
there’s something sort of… question-begging about the implications made by the names themselves, maybe. but surely there is a taxonomic usefulness to the terms, even if you reject the let’s say diagnostic value.
i myself view pathological gender norms being pushed by broad segments of society as a real and material problem, but reasonable people can disagree. along with the inevitable bad-faith scumbags.
Toxic masculinity is the enforcement/acting of steriotypical masculinity to the point where you are not being true to yourself or actively making your life or the lives of others worse.
Toxic femininity if the enforcement/acting of steriotypical femenin traits to the point where you are not being true to yourself or making your lifr or the lives of others worse.
Evoking such stereotypes for fleeting social benefits or just for the sake of being a bully is not only harmful to the target, but for the name of masculinity/femininity itself.
Blame not the apple tree, but rather the one who uses their fruit to craft a poison apple.
Also just in general anyone can have flowers without it being suspicious or questionable. They’re plants. It’s really weird that owning plants became so gendered.
It really is strange. Like, who’s got the absolute gall care so much about what other people keep on their desk/counter/table? Why fuckin’ bother wasting your mental bandwidth on something so inconsequential in the first place, much less go even further beyond and assign specific roles and connotations to it? Humans are stupid.
bundles of amputated plant genitals:: many of them containing toxic levels of Pollen, which can cause ‘Mayhem’ when they attempt to mate with the lining of my nose, … which causes extreme suffering, where the suffering is measured on Richter Scale.
It really super is. I’m finding gender increasingly tedious as I get older. I have more important things to worry about than how other people perceive me in the context of gender. Like literally anything else.
And if you want the other half of why Sal can’t open herself to any positive affection, there it is.
Sal is happy with her gift, Sal is enjoying something, but what, that’s not right. Sal can’t enjoy things, Sal can’t have a pleasant time with a friend, Sal can’t be in a good mood, because Sal’s supposed to be an angry biker chick who leans against walls smoking cigarettes and complaining, but that’s annoying and fake, but god forbid she stop acting like that for five minutes. If Sal acts differently, if Sal makes an effort to not be the person who’s consistently criticized for isolating herself to her apparent misery, then she’s weird and different and not acting like how she does and oooh Sal did you finally grow up?
Sal’s problems have never been inward, they’ve always been rooted in how other people treat her.
God, isn’t that the truth. I’m still trying to shake off the reputation of “lolrandom funny friend who gets mad at dumb shit”, half a lifetime later. I never even wanted it, my autistic alternate-rail thought process just led that way.
Oof, my sympathies. :C My autistic roommate leaned in a sliiightly different direction (“goofy ‘unobservant’ jokester who never gets mad at anything ever”), but he had a similar experience. Even though very little about that trope is actually true when applied to him, it was just the easiest way for him to deal with people before he had friends who actually understood being neurodivergent.
Meanwhile, I got stuck with “too impulsive and immature to ever make any serious decisions” by my parents because I was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid… and now I actually DON’T know how to make decisions as an adult because of that! Funny how that worked out. 😐
Malaya hasn’t gotten her comeuppance yet, so she remains a piece of shit. Once she does get her just desserts then I’ll have a reason to enjoy seeing her.
Heck, sometimes it’s not even ‘I love to hate’ them, sometimes it’s just ‘This person is a shithead, but in a way I find humorous or entertaining in fiction’.
That Sal has not murdered Malaya yet is one of the reasons I like Sal so very much. Many of my Mother’s friends shared so many traits with Sal. except the Anger. So I am, like Danny drawn to the strength of Sal. Not as a spouse or mate, but as a friend. Strongly drawn, strong smart women — rocking the world of webcomics since 1998 (or there abouts).
Particularly irritating when it’s Malaya, who has long insisted that Sal is a faker, being all judgy that Sal’s doing something counter to appearances. At least Joyce is making an effort to be friends and not just idolize Sal for her coolness.
Malaya doesn’t actually care if Sal’s fake or not. She’s just a reflexive contrarian. How much do you want to bet she’d talk shit about Sal enjoying Apples to Apples even though that’s the polar opposite of the ‘badass biker chick’ image she likes to criticize and THEORETICALLY Malaya should be happy she’s doing something ‘genuine’ and outside said image?
Yeah I think it’s pretty clear here it doesn’t actually matter what Sal’s doing, Malaya will have something to criticize about it which is actually one of the things Sal hates most that people do to her. She could start wearing pink and take up ballet or shave off half her hair and get a new tattoo and she’ll either be a poser or not as badass as she want people to think.
It doesn’t just look like bullying it is bullying. Sal just doesn’t play the victim to it and their relationship has been toxic both ways. Both of them have threatened each other with physical violence before. Malaya did actually attack Sal once but Sal physically provoked her first so that was just barely justified.
Malaya’s first real speaking appearance was in conflict with Sal.
It looks tremendously like bullying. There is no valid criticism here, Sal just can’t win. Before there maybe could have been a justification that they were trying to push Sal out of what could be seen as a harmful pattern of reactive self-definition, but that’s completely out the window. Malaya’s just being a jerk now.
Poor Sal. Between her mother, Malaya, “Jennifer” and the Toxic crusaders, she just can’t catch a break……
She doesn’t seem like the “online” kind of person, and so far it’s true that she’s not a “weed person”…. maybe a sensory deprivation chamber or something?
Yeah with Malaya it’s 100% damned if you do, damned if you don’t. They will find a reason to be a self-righteous twit about anything and everything. Especially where Sal is concerned.
Frustrating to see Malaya continue to needle Sal here, while Sal seems to have grown and stopped fully rising to Malaya’s bait. Not a good look for Malaya — comes across awfully childish.
Yeah. Granted, not surprising that Malaya’s being a shitty 18-year-old here, but I really would like for them to get some actual character growth in how they treat Sal, if only for Marcie.
I’m actually reading this as more lighthearted than Malaya and Sal’s usual interactions. This feels more like roommate/same friend group ribbing to me. I’m okay with that. I’d put this in the top ten of these two’s interactions.
Sal, no. I don’t think she’s really upset in panel 3 but by the last one she’s definitely not enjoying this. I’m not reading Malaya’s ‘tone’ as particularly nasty though – she seems more playful than usual. YMMV.
If somebody ALWAYS “playfully” runs you down, even if you know it’s just them being them and their thing, sometimes it’ll still hurt.
Danny actually managed to cheer her up a bit after her encounter with Jennifer, Asher and co (in a very roundabout, more by letting her bleed out some of her paranoia without judging her for it, way than anything…) and Malaya’s pushing her back into “people play roles with certain expectations, there’s no such thing as a genuine, kind action” thinking.
Regarding your first bit there, I’ve had to remind friends to tone it down with the aggressive ribbing, specifically because it starts to feel genuine after a while, no matter if they mean it to or not.
It’s an attribute in myself that I get very worried about. In the speed of the moment I have dropped some very witty but razor sharp burns and have had to straight up apologize when I realize what I have said. It’s not always easy to bite my tongue to stop one from bursting forth, but once I’ve force myself to consider how it may feel to hear it, it dissipates. But DT, if you’re watching for your friends feelings, you must be a very caring friend indeed.
The furrowing brow and possible decrease in smile on Sal’s part suggests there might be some genuine self-consciousness there, though since it only becomes a frown last panel that might just be her reflecting on how she got them and maybe not being thrilled with how that talk with Danny went.
Oh, yeah, those comments are punching pretty hard on Sal’s issues button. I don’t think Malaya MEANT to though, so while intent is not impact and both do matter, I’m not really reading her as hostile there.
That feels like a stretch to me given their history, but you do you. As I said in response to another comment, I hope this progresses into Malaya realizing they’ve gone too far and acknowledging that Sal is working on behaviors that they used to criticize her for in the same fashion. I’d love to see that kind of character growth. But I need to see it, I’m not going to assume it. Malaya hasn’t earned that benefit of the doubt at this point. They have in fact actively sabotaged it.
As I said, YMMV. We’ve seen Malaya when she wants to be hurtful and to me, this doesn’t look like it. THAT SAID, that doesn’t mean Malaya WASN’T hurtful and that doesn’t make any hurt felt illegitimate. Given their history, Sal has no reason not to feel a little stung.
Honestly that’s how I felt about it on my first read. But then I remembered what we’ve seen of Sal and Malaya’s interactions so far, and it got a lot less fun. Unless their relationship had a MASSIVE shift during the timeskip, this probably isn’t nearly as lighthearted and affectionate as I’d like to think.
Malaya is such a child. Imagine making fun of someone for having…flowers? There has to be a reason for her mindset to be so stuck in 7th grade.
On that note, while I understand Sal’s desire to maintain her reputation, it’d be more “in character” (for her reputation) to shut Malaya up instead of letting such juvenile teasing get to her. Trying to prove herself to an overgrown toddler is fruitless. The final confrontation between these two (in 7 years) will be one for the books.
I hope Malaya gets hit by a truck and/or gets set upon by feral dogs.
I’ve really tried to find the good in her but instead she gives me even more reasons to hate her.
Hope Sal doesn’t take the bait on this one and end up doing something she will regret. Sal doesn’t deserve this and if that means cutting her(and by extension Marcie) out of her life, then she’ll end up happier in the long run.
And he didn’t *need* redemption, nor deserve it. Frankly, I didn’t have a problem with Mike being an unmitigated bastard, but too many people kept buying into the same load of shit about him doing terrible things because it made everyone around him better. It didn’t, and yet people are harsher on Malaya (and some others) than they ever were on BlaineRossCarolLindaNaomi Jr., also known as Mike.
Sal wouldn’t have to cut out Marcie in order to cut out Malaya. But unfortunately, cutting out Malaya is not an option, they’re rooming together for the foreseeable year.
That may be true in principle, but in practice it often doesn’t work out so well. I’ve found that significant others often come as a package deal, and Marcie has been insisting Sal make changes for a while. I suspect if Sal tried to cut Malaya out (practical problems wrt being roommates aside), Marcie might see that as a rejection of her concerns.
Sal could easily point to other friends she’s made like Danny, Joyce, even Carla, as well as her reconciling with Amber and Walky. That would probably alleviate some of Marcie’s concerns. While it’s true couples often come as a package deal, they’re not literally joined 24/7 at the hip. There’s no reason Marcie can’t hang out with her friend and not Malaya at the same time. Myself and my boyfriend do it often (or did before the plague hit).
It’s different when your best friend and significant other actively dislike each other than just spending time apart. It takes a toll and hurts both relationships, and Marcie has specifically requested that Sal tries to get along with Malaya. And Sal has pointed to others (I think specifically Danny at one point) and that was insufficient. Progress has been made since then, but a large part of that progress has also been joining roller derby with Malaya. It’s not a stretch that Marcie could see a deterioration of that relationship as regression on Sal’s part.
Maybe cool it a little with things like “easily” and “no reason”, their friendship has been having a rocky time and we still don’t know what the effects the timeskip had on it exactly. When we last left off, the state of things was actively contradicting the base assumptions you seem to be operating off of.
At the time, Marcie was also concerned about other things, like Sal’s propensity for confrontation having splash back on her. Sal trying roller derby as an outlet also addressed THAT concern. And seeing Danny on her motorcycle and then slinking off after 5 seconds didn’t exactly give Marcie a ton of evidence of her main concern (which, at the time, was being Sal’s collateral damage) being addressed. Not only have there been months since then for Marcie to see how much that’s true, but we’ve seen her talking to Sal about Danny – right before Sal was okay with Marcie stepping away to ‘talk to another friend’ (AKA flirt with Sayid) (i.e. She’s not being Clingzilla anymore).
Last we left off, things could have been rocky again, but that was because Marcie admitted she’d had feelings for Sal and wasn’t sure how present those feelings still were. Which, granted, DID hit some of Sal’s insecurities but it seemed like that had been addressed some – ironically, BY Malaya. Sal was happy seeing them together at the end of that storyline. Heck, since that time we’ve seen Sal deliberately pick a time to hang out when Malaya wasn’t around and Marcie’s reaction was pretty much ‘Yeah, yeah, smart ass, clever’ with a smile. Sure, never being able to be in the same spot would be a drain on the relationship but they’ve both been willing to be around Marcie even outside the roommate thing.
I guess she could see it as regression but that seems harsh for Marcie considering she knows they don’t like each other and her major concerns have been addressed in other ways she knows or has reason to know of. Sure, if things deteriorate so badly they can’t even be around each other when not forced to by the university, that’ll be a strain, but A) A lot of that will depend on how specifically things deteriorate and B) I still don’t think spending time with them separately would be that herculean a task.
There’s absolutely zero chance of Sal intentionally cutting Marcie out of her life no matter what. Even if she shifts so that Marcie’s no longer her Most Important Person, Marcie’s still going to have been the Most Important Person for 13 years of her life. That’s gonna leave a mark. She’s also established herself as Safe and Trustworthy for Sal the longest. Walky, Joyce, Danny, even Carla are closer to Sal now and so she doesn’t HAVE to dump everything on Marcie anymore, but she’s got oldest billing. If chips get really low that could matter.
If that means putting up with Malaya sometimes, she’ll do it.
Not that she has much choice BUT to put up with her now. They’re roommates.
How did Sal get this “reputation” anyway? Like what is Malaya even talking about? I know Sal is cool among her friend group but is she really well known enough to have a reputation? How many people actually care about Sal’s perception? I think it’s just Malaya.
Sal’s decently known as being the motorcycle chick. Also she was involved in multiple violent incidents in the first semester, which probably didn’t go unnoticed by the wider student body.
I think it just feels that way because we the audience have witnessed it. We’re essentially part of her friend group, but most people are completely indifferent to others they don’t have a personal connection with and of the friend group how many actually idolize Sal? Like 3 people? Joyce, Jennifer, and I don’t know Carla?
I thought she’d gotten over Sal too but her last appearance confirmed for me she still holds Sal on a pedestal. Otherwise she wouldn’t receive such satisfaction from her potential jealousy. Sal’s living in Jen’s head rent free.
I’m not saying idolize, I’m saying that a large chunk of the student body is aware of the cool motorcycle chick because they’ve seen her around, and are aware of things like her getting into a violent fistfight on the steps of her dorm building, or y’know, the multiple actual car chases
I think you have a point with the fist fight, but I actually think the one event that might have earned Sal the most notoriety or reputation is her fight with Amazi-girl at the Desanto rally because there were a lot of people there to witness it. The car chases seem like big deals but how many people do you think actually know the details about who was involved in them?
Waaaaaaaaay back in the olden days of yore, she was well known enough Daisy wanted to see if they could get her story for the human interest section of the newspaper. No way in HELL Sal would agree to that but she’s definitely made a splash on campus.
I know some people are obsessed with reading Malaya negatively, and I will say that doing so is easy for this comic. I’m choosing to read her as being innocently (if annoyingly) smartass and not really aiming to sting with these barbs, because I don’t really enjoy hating one of the very few complex nonbinary characters in the comic.
Up until Panel 4 this could have been just roommates taking friendly shots at each other, but Malaya took it too far, and they have too much of a history of very directed hostility (without much justification) at Sal for that to feel innocent to me at this point. This is also made all the more egregious for the fact that they’re turning around and mocking Sal for taking a step away from what they spent all of last semester accusing her of doing.
You’re throwing an awful lot at folks who react negatively to the way they treat Sal. Some of us have been on the receiving end of this kind of treatment, and it hits hard. Obsession is kind of a hefty charge.
What she’s doing is invoking heavily feminine tropes in a mocking way. Fairy tales are not innocuous in this context, they’re especially weighty when used mockingly because they carry the weight of accusations of naivety and condescension.
I can only assume that you can’t see it because you’ve never been on the receiving end of targeted harassment of this sort. I’m genuinely happy for you on that score, but as a result, I’ll ask you to take the word of those who have that it hurts, and not to belittle it.
Yeah, even post-skip we haven’t seen Malaya cool it with Sal (see: roller derby and genuine animosity there, which was last night) so while I could see them meaning panel 4 in a less genuine way than other digs from their expression, they don’t have the rapport for Sal to take it that way. Especially since it hits in a sensitive spot, and one Malaya HAS needled them for in the past. Given Malaya’s also historically been an asshole to Sal, I could also see it being their genuine hostility to each other.
I can respect the spirit of this. It is really easy to see the negative in Malaya’s actions and hate on them for it. I think the problem most people have with them is that this is repeated behavior. You can say this is just Malaya having a good natured jab at Sal but what about all the countless other times? Malaya doesn’t really have the credit for most people to give them the benefit of the doubt here.
Heck even the Author appears to want Malaya’s behaviour to be viewed negatively. She comes into the room, starts needling Sal, and then positions herself so close that her camera angle is as a villain lording their power over the -perceived-to-be-helpless- fallen hero. Sal is literally in a corner (*not* metaphorically however) and Malaya has used that to box her in and stand taller while bullying Sal. Malaya is lucky Sal doesn’t just sucker punch her. Sal is doing well by keeping her back turned. The next best would be to simply ignore Malaya’s existence. Clearly Malaya behaves this way for a reason, so if her behaviour is not fed a reaction, she won’t know what to do with herself.
This is a little frustrating, cuz Malaya has been giving Sal shit the entire time they’ve known each other (arguably justifiably) because Sal puts up this massive facade and never lets anyone see who she really is. But here Sal is, dropping that facade just a little bit, and putting something on her desk that she likes but that breaks from the idea that everyone has of her, and Malaya starts needling her about it like “Wow, YOU have flowers? Seriously??”
I hope that this scene culminates with Malaya giving Sal some credit for stepping a bit outside of her “too cool to care” persona
People who craft no-win situations suck more. You hear that Jack B. Sowards? You suck! (actually not, that kobayashi maru has generated some fantastic fictional drama). But people who drop others into those situations are just shit.
I’d really love to see Malaya realizing they’ve gone too far and acknowledging this. Seeing that kind of character growth would be great for Malaya, and it’d go a long way towards making me not dread seeing them in-strip.
They’re not a character I love to hate, I just don’t enjoy them.
THIS. this is so manipulative and another example of why sal is so rightfully bitter about how people project these images onto her, no matter what she does people just try to make her feel worse about who they think she wants to be, and malaya is the absolute worst about it and I just want sal to have a nice day and feel nice 🙁
It’s not so much about the specifics. It’s about A) Malaya is a reflexive contrarian and B) She dislikes Sal, so they’re not even gonna bother trying to rein it in the way they do with Marcie.
I mean, she’s not technically lying. She rejected the gift, then took part of it when he wasn’t watching. That’s basically stealing, but Danny’s not going to put up a fuss if he found out.
I think it was just her accepting the gift on her terms. Gifts have to be reciprocated somehow to balance the books, but she doesn’t owe him anything in return if she stole them!
This never really went anywhere and a later strip had Dina comment to the effect that Sarah’s cynicism is repeatedly unfounded.
I definitely think it was gonna be a big drama bomb, but then was dropped which, I dunno, I guess I’m okay with that? Becky being in love with Joyce her whole life is a big story but between that and the current ongoing crisis of Becky’s sexual hangups I find the latter to be a bit more interesting since it’s between Becky and Dina, and “I can’t be with Joyce” territory feels like something that can still be explored with Dorothy.
Sal “stole” them exactly to avoid Malaya’s comments. She knows very well what kind of nice and supportive person her roommate is. But I wonder, in the far and very remote chance that Sal and Danny become an item, would Malaya be only annoying and mock Sal? Maybe she would support her because she’s following her heart♡? Nah! That would become an endless mine of bad jokes! I kinda want to see that…
Malaya would mock and sass, yes. I also expect her to nervously and discreetly take Sal aside and plead that Sal not ‘entertain’ Danny in their room without prior arrangement, just she’d know to be somewhere else.
Actually, this would be way better than my thoughts of Malaya telling Danny and Sal not to meet in their room because doesn’t want people to even remotely think that he is going to visit them and not Sal.
Tbh, I hate Malaya and Panel 4 reads to me as being happy about getting to mock/make fun of Sal. I don’t know about anyone else here, but I often find bullies tend to smile WHILE BULLYING. Because they like to do so. Not because they are being friendly/not hostile/not intending harm.
YES Malaya is awful and I’m happy to see them and I want them to appear in more strips. I guess it’s mostly because I really need some non-binary characters.
Also, I’m curious about possible character developments for them.
I wish I could edit or delete my comment. I meant to say “they” and “their”. It’s been so long since we’ve seen Malaya that I forgot they were non-binary. At least with this memory associated, I should be able to now.
i mean, as it turns out, she/they/whatever are on record not caring about which pronouns they’re called. although “whatever” was perhaps not literally meant as a pronoun.
I’ve got a friend who’s said a few times that until they can safely transition, their main pronouns are “you/bongo”. I may be misremembering the first one, due to being drunk every time it comes up.
Is it cool to ask a They/Them pronoun question here wrt? Normally I would just post the question, but I worry that asking is kinda like “ugh, why don’t you know this already why do I have to tell you this” and I wouldn’t know how to google my answer.
I’m cool with it, but keep in mind I haven’t looked into the subject as much as I probably should have by now, myself. I also don’t use mixed pronouns, though (they/them exclusively), so that may also be an important factor.
With a gentle caveat that sometimes we’re sick of hearing the questions themselves out of repetition, even if they’re entirely harmless on their own. And another caveat that sometimes Google’s results refuse to be anything close to informative if you don’t already know the right key words, so a human interaction (even just a link to the right place) is the most constructive vehicle for answers.
Yeah this is what I was worried about, ’cause I think asking someone to explain something really foundational and important to them, even out of genuine interest and wanting to know for future reference, can still prove to be extremely exhausting for them.
So Malaya describes themself as She/They, and another forum I frequent lets you put your pronouns under your avatar and some folks do put theirs as “He/They’ and “She/They.” When I see “They/Them” for pronouns I always veer towards those even if they have ‘He’ or ‘She’ there as well.
Essentially, I would like to ask if it’s appropriate to refer to someone with ‘He/They’ and ‘She/They’ with masculine or feminine pronouns, and if those pronouns can be used interchangeable with gender neutral pronouns.
Longer answer: People can have different relationships with their pronouns, but all you really have to go off of is what they tell you, and if they say “use this or this” then either should be fine. I get gravitating toward they/them, I do that sometimes too, but it’s not necessary and also fine to go between them.
Another note: I try to avoid describing pronouns as masculine or feminine these days. Someone can use she/her pronouns, for instance, without identifying as female or with femininity. I understand there’s some convenience factor, and I’m not explaining the issues it may have all that well, but just something to think about.
That’s fine to default to that, and probably good practice for getting used to using gender neutral pronouns for people in general! But if someone says they are okay with she/her or he/him, then that means they’re okay with those pronouns, and it’s okay to use them!
A friend of mine who goes by He/They told me that it means he prefers he, but they is okay as well. Another friend goes by They/He, meaning they prefer they, but he is okay.
What everyone said above, plus some people do like to switch around. I’ve been using she/her and they/them for Malaya, though her profile says they’re indifferent to which pronoun is used.
Actually, you’d think she wouldn’t be a dick about how other people express themselves after they had to figure themselves out, too.
That’s just dickish.
ok, preamble: i agree that Malaya is being really bad today, and i’m not looking to make excuses for their behaviour. i’m just interested in what might be going on in their head. they’re still accountable for their words and actions, obviously.
so here’s my thought, people have wondered before whether their obsession with “fakiness” is because they feel fakey themself, especially wrt gender/presentation; i wonder whether they’re especially mad (orenvious) towards Sal because they project on her this perception of “successful” womanhood. Or on the contrary, though both may hold true because brains are weird, they suspect Sal is “faking it” in some way and actually shares their unease with their common gender-assignation and they wants to expose her.
that would also go some way to explaining the specific target of their ridicule today. Sal being ok with having flowers points to a potentially more wholesome femininity than they’d thought.
not what i meant!
anyway Regalli’s convinced me that while gender may be part of it, it’s probably more about feeling envious of Sal’s confidence in her appearance.
Thanks! More her aesthetic than pure appearance, I think, but yeah. Sal does not worry about how flowers conflict with her Rebellious Biker image until Malaya starts pressing, her issue with getting them from Danny was all in her trust issues about manipulation and gifts as future leverage. As someone pointed out in another thread, her 3DS is pink, and while I’m sure that’s in part ‘what was available for cheap’ she clearly doesn’t have an aversion to the color. I don’t think Malaya’s reached a point in her gender identity exploration where they can feel totally comfortable with those explicitly feminine social trappings even if they do like them, and that could definitely be a cause for insecurity seeing someone who DOES, not caring how incongruous people might consider them with her look (or at least seeming not to.)
(Which is probably a thing where Sal, being a pretty conventionally attractive straight cis woman, is far less likely to have her gender questioned the way Malaya as a queer nonbinary person might. I wouldn’t be shocked if Malaya’s worried about going more feminine and then that being used as ‘proof’ that they’re not ‘really’ nonbinary, this was clearly just a phase. As someone who took a really long time to realize that I’m not totally a woman because my favored aesthetic is low-effort femme and my dysphoria’s almost all bodily, and has dealt with some well-meaning but Not Getting It responses from parents since realizing, I can sympathize. Doesn’t excuse being a dickweed about it, but I can see that ‘I’m a girl, I can have flowers’ hitting Malaya badly because of Complicated Gender Feels that Sal probably doesn’t recognize would hurt Malaya the same way Malaya doesn’t recognize their comments hit Sal as badly as they did.)
yes, there was a Slipshine pinup of Sal that i found very characteristic, where she’s skinny dipping all by herself in a lake at night, her motorbike parked on the beach behind her, and she’s standing waist-deep in the water, eyes closed, smoking a cigarette, looking totally relaxed.
Her style is actually not meant for others. Sure sometimes it has its social perks, like, it makes her intimidating; but really she could do with less attention, and she’s doing fine by herself. her issues don’t have so much to do with her self-image but more with the cost of letting someone in. Of course she’s still a human person so being entirely self-reliant and lonely is not a happy life, but she’s very protective of the comforts of being a loner, and pretty troubled by any chink in that bubble.
so, when Malaya teased that flowers are corny, she didn’t care, what stung is when they remarked that flowers are also gift-y.
As for Complicated Gender Feels, yeah, that’s sort of what i was getting at in the first place. You’re right, while Sal doesn’t know what this could mean to Malaya (i guess Malaya’s not out to Sal?), she may unwittingly be touching a nerve. To Malaya’s ears it might come off kind of smug.
I would think Malaya is out to Sal– I mean, I doubt they sat her down and had a conversation about it or anything, but in the strip where they meet Booster 1. Sal is presumably still in the room, having been there in the previous strip 2. Malaya mentions wearing a binder throughout November, which Sal may or may not have really noticed/inferred from. But it does make it sound like it’s something Malaya expects is common knowledge.
right, i went back to that strip (link) and was about to get back here to say the same. so i guess they are out to Sal.
so idk, what does it say about Sal’s retort then? Malaya was teasing her, but not badly. was it an insensitive thing to say? i’m not in a position to judge.
I’d call it about as insensitive as Malaya, who Sal DOESN’T have a relationship with where they can really joke about flowers being uncharacteristic for Sal, making the comments in the first place. Maybe slightly moreso because it’s gender specifically and Malaya probably doesn’t know how much the Cool Girl reputation bothers Sal, but I think ‘unthinkingly insensitive and grating on each other’ is a decent read on both of them this particular strip.
Yeah, I could very much see some insecurity re: gender in Malaya’s whole schtick about fakeness. They do seem more comfortable with it than before, but sometimes the ‘yeah I don’t care at all, whatever’s fine’ comes off as a ‘I do care very much but am not yet comfortable enough to say so.’
The other thing about Sal that I can see Malaya envying is how she genuinely is pretty comfortable with how she presents, just in general. She doesn’t like being put on the pedestal of Perfect Coolness, but she also doesn’t want to change anything about herself – other people’s reaction to her is on THEM, not on her. Which I suspect ties into her realizing she would never please her parents, even when trying to force herself to fit what they want her to be. (I don’t think Family Weekend was the only time she downplayed herself during a visit. I do think it’s possibly the last.)
Technically speaking, can you steal something that was freely offered? To steal something, you have to take something that is not yours, without the permission of the individual, who actually owns the thing you are taking. Even though Sal did not accept Danny’s offering of flowers, Danny never retracted the offer; at no point did Danny say, “well then, you cannot have them”. He even said, if Sal wanted something, she just had to see him; that something could include his flowers.
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“–OFFA A WINGED PRINCE BEING RIDDEN BY THE PRETTIEST HORSE AT THE BALL”
Did you get that backwards, or does Sal go to some really wild balls?
They were in such a rush they totally did the thing.
Some balls are held for charity, and some for fancy dress
But the ones held just for pleasure are the balls that I like best
Love that song!
How about the Prettiest Cop on the Block?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtUAIHxqX-E
Even the prettiest cop on the block is still a bastard.
Go Sal go!
Amazing they’ve both survived this long.
Hmm…. wonder how well she’d get along with Lupin the 3rd….
Probably about like this.
What if it were Carmen Sandiego?
Carmen Sandiego now steals only from V.I.L.E. so prob not as well as you’d think
Heeeeyyyy! Forgot that existed!
…I feel stupid for not getting the meaning of “As Long As It’s Free” until just now.
…what is the meaning?
It’s from the Lady Gaga song ‘Bad Romance’. There’s a line that says ‘I want your everything as long as its free.’
Frankly, it’s not the ‘I want your love’ half I’m worried about, it’s the ‘And I want your revenge’.
same, it’s the fact that until a few days before it aired (so when it was most likely fully written and drawn) this storyline was titled “I want your revenge”.
She isn’t WRONG.
Technically correct. The best kind of correct
♬When I was born there was a hurricane in Kingston Bay, with a foot and a half of water . . .
[Requisitions HWA a beat.]
That’s some good abidin’ there He.
Well, Danny did explicitly say she was free to take them, so… I think she IS wrong…
… except she did it stealthy… and it was a bargain….
DAMN YOU AND YOUR AMBIGUITIES, ENGLISH!
It’s not technically a lie right?
It’s technically correct. Which is of course, the best kind of correct
Technically, I don’t disagree.
Whatever makes you feel better, Sal.
Ah can steal flowers from dorks whenever ah like, Malaya.
Man, I just want Sal to be able to have nice things without people giving her a hard time about it. 🙁
I know right? She looked so happy about having a couple of flowers in a cup (poor girl REALLY isn’t used to being given nice things because people think she’s special and want her to be happy) and Malaya’s taking the shine off the experience…
And I suspect it’s because Malaya’s “You’re a poser” dealio comes from her “if I even am a girl” questioning, via a bit of projection and angst in the form of “You’re pretty and clearly somewhat invested in being cool, so you must be a poser because I am these things and they cause intenal conflict, so clearly if you don’t admit this about yourself it must be because you’re shallower than a mirror”… But I just want Sal to catch a break and feel loved, respected and supported.
Malaya: Why do you have to pretend like you are too cool to have any vulnerabilities.
AlsoMalaya: Oh sweet a crack in the armour!
Oh yeah forgot Sal’s friend group ALL have this weird equivalent of toxic masculinity
Marcie’s not so bad, and I mean, there’s Danny, but yeah, everyone’s got their damage. “Everyone’s Got Their Damage” almost could be a DoA tagline, really.
Unfortunately “Damaged of Age” doesn’t rhyme with anything.
Damaged of Age is the spinoff where entire cast has been Jokerized.
Indiana University has become Indiana Society.
Also: Real life.
The Deans are doing alright though? Mae’s even been updating the comic more-or-less regularly for over a year!
I mean, we don’t really know a lot about Marcie’s stances. Presumably she’s cool unless proven otherwise.
She likes Malaya, so she’s at the very least got questionable taste.
She’s also agreed AG deserved a medal for tossing Malaya around so she’s not TOTALLY immune to Malaya’s….charm.
Maybe Marcie just really wants to see women tossing women. Which… yeah, I can buy.
Why not just say toxic feminity
Because that isn’t what they’re talking about?
Seems more like toxic feminity as opposed to toxic masculinity is all
As with so many things, there aren’t just two options.
The thing that Sal’s friend group has is more of a toxic rejection of femininity, and as such, it would be much more accurate to describe it as toxic masculinity than toxic femininity if you had to choose one of the two (which again, you don’t). Just because most of them identify as female and have a toxic trait doesn’t make it toxic femininity.
I don’t actually believe in the terms toxic masculinity or femininity, I think its a term someone made up that has no meaning and can legitimize behaviour that is, at best boorish and at worst illegal, and should be punished as such
That being said if the term is going to be used then I would think the identity of the person being toxic would be the deciding factor
Or is it just easier to decide that all toxic behaviour is masculine irregardless of the genders involved
How would a negative descriptor legitimise the behaviors it was made to condemn?
I’ve got big news for you about language, buddy: it’s all made up. That being said, these terms do have meanings, whether you believe in them or not, and they’re not tied to the gender of the person being toxic, but rather the nature of the behavior.
Toxic masculinity is an enforcement of masculine behaviors and a rejection of performance of femininity or feminine behaviors to an unhealthy and harmful degree. We see something akin to this here in this strip with Malaya’s mocking of Sal embracing display of flowers, which is typically seen as a feminine trait.
Toxic femininity is an enforcement of feminine behaviors and a rejection of performance of masculinity or masculine behaviors to an unhealthy and harmful degree. We don’t see this in this strip at all.
I don’t see either in this strip at all. Malaya’s teasing their roommate about having flowers because flowers are often seen as cheesy and not fitting the biker stereotype. At no point does she deride flowers or Sal for being girly or feminine
@BBCC In panel 4 Malaya is invoking multiple tropes associated with feminine roles. At this point I really don’t understand how you don’t see it.
It would be more like toxic tomboyinity since neither Malaya nor Sal are concerned with looking like manly men of manly manlitude.
Ah, okay, you meant the fairytale stuff. Yeah, I can see that.
@someone Yeah, I was oversimplifying a bit, that would be a better label, which goes into what I was saying earlier about there being more than two options. But given that I was getting pushback on the two of them being a thing at all, I was just starting from first principles.
Well personally, I see the mind as having no need for gender, and by extension toxicity has no need for gender either.
You…get that Toxic is a modifier for Masculinity/Femininity here and not the other way around, right? You’ve said absolutely nothing here.
Well that’s the point — it’s the toxicity that matters, not the masculinity/femininity.
It’s like a virus not caring what food it laches onto when it enters your body.
I’m sorry, but your point is nonsensical, because what exactly is toxic matters. Whether one is dealing with toxic masculinity, toxic femininity, toxic controlling behaviors, and so on, these are all different things that don’t have the same solutions. It’s like saying all viruses are the same and get the exact same treatment.
Well fairy tales have their positive uses, but if one wants to they can surely turn them into provocative weapons.
Literally anything can be repurposed for toxicity’s sake, just like how someone if they really wanted to could turn just about any object into a weapon.
Aaaaaaaaaaaand when that happens, being able to recognize it for what it is is important and useful. That way it can be addressed in its specific way.
Like in your very own example, a virus that needs its own specific treatment can get it because it has its own name and is individually recognized, categorized, and understood.
My example really emphasized that the particular food on which the virus enters the body doesn’t matter.
If Malaya wasn’t gonna turn Feminism into some kind of provocative weapon, she’d just find something else to piss off Sal.
Yes, Malaya is going to use whatever is handy to try and annoy Sal.
In this case, toxic masculinity is handy, because flowers are seen as girly.
Malaya is using toxic masculinity to annoy Sal.
That’s kinda all folks are saying about it so far.
Hey Wagstaff. I’m still interested in this perspective. Like, I feel like I can understand the perspective that a mind does not need gender. Also, gender is not a prerequisite for companionship. However I think it’s also worth noting (and please correct my armchair evolutionary biology here) that social grouping and cooperation is seems to be an outcome of sexual reproduction. (sexual -> shared protection of offspring -> combining efforts/ resources -> social protocol to enhance cooperation -> partaking of social benefits without requiring reproductive benefits) [yeah there’s a lot of leaps there, I’m spitballing over here.]
So, I see your point that we could move past that, in theory. However, a lot of sentiences derive pleasure and satisfaction from the companionship of a shared pairing (or moreing) that includes a strong association with a gender identity and it’s interplay with their prefered bonding psyche.
Intelligent conversation and mutual respect are a fantastic foundation for a social connection, but for many, they are not the only thing, and removing gender from the mental world reduces the colour palette of our interactions.
Out of a fascination with your perspective on this, and our earlier conversations I would like to ask more about you personally, but I don’t want to give offense by prying after an identity aspect that it appears you wish you didn’t have. And hopefully I didn’t over step in saying that much. Your dispute over the importance of physical contact to an animal (either has a fetus/newborn) or as a sexual being, is intriguing to me, though I do hope this isn’t coming across as a ” hmm this sample is interesting” so much as a curiosity about you as a person.
I very much do appreciate your interest.
One’s anatomy is one thing. But gender roles, gender identity, are really shaped by surrounding culture more than anything else. What a “man” is supposed to do and look like, what a “woman” is supposed to do and look like, varies tremendously from culture to culture, and so gender really doesn’t make sense unless you define that essential context.
For instance, for the longest time in American culture, “men” were, and in many states still are, expected to earn the majority of the family’s income, whereas within the Haredim in Judaism, it’s “women” who are expected to be the primary breadwinners.
Not to mention the fact that in America, pink used to be the “boy color” and blue used to be the “girl color”, and only switched because of corporate decisions.
I also want to note that the notion that the mind has no need for gender is going a bit too far. Gender is absolutely a social construct, but it’s one that has been constructed over and over and over again. I’m unaware of any societies that have no concept of gender. Several have constructed it differently, and it’s important to understand that no society’s concept of gender is any kind of essential or “right”, but the idea that “the mind” in general has no need for gender is too narrow in scope (like saying the mind has no need for language) and is also not borne out by observation. Not everyone has a gender, and each person’s experience of gender can be different, but those are very different than the mind having no need of it at all.
Sometimes it feels like you make overly broad statements like this looking for fights.
This also seems to be drifting off into gender critical territory. If gender is nothing more than cultural constructs of what colors we like and what roles we fill socially, then we can get rid of those social constructs and let everyone wear what they want and do what they want.
Which in one direction leads to lots of non-binary acceptance, but in the other leads to claims there’s nothing deeper going on with trans people and therefore there’s no need for any kind of transition.
Language is really nothing like gender. The mind having no need for gender doesn’t mean that one can certainly choose a gender if they want to.
What seems like a “man” in one culture can very well fit the role of a “woman” in another, and vice versa.
I definitely wasn’t trying to deny people’s rights to having a gender. If someone says there’s no need for VHS tapes, are they denying people’s rights to owning VHS tapes?
I definitely welcome feedback on what I write, but attacking a straw man doesn’t help productive discussion. But don’t sweat it; we all make mistakes sometimes!
*doesn’t mean that one can’t choose a gender if they want to.
From what I can tell, people don’t “choose” gender. At least in the vast majority of cases. They just are a gender. Even if that flies in the face of what they were told they were and how society attempted to socialize them. Or, as in most cases, if it does match up.
But, more importantly, I think you’re missing a critical distinction between gender roles and gender identity. Gender roles are socially constructed – they vary broadly across time and different cultures. Gender identity isn’t socially constructed and doesn’t vary between societies – other than at the edges of how to handle those who don’t fit the gender binary.
Are people necessarily born with a gender identity, before being exposed to any cultural concept of gender?
To me at least, it’s kind of like assuming that religious faith is a natural state, that every child intrinsically has a religious identity before they even know what a “god” is.
Given that no one is unexposed to cultural concepts of gender long before they’re capable of expressing what their own is in words, it’s not easy to tell.
But that’s not really all that relevant and I don’t think the comparison to faith is at all analogous. Though if all cultures came up with the same couple of religious identities independently, then it would certainly make me wonder.
We can at least agree that gender identity and gender role are not the same thing, right? And that however gender identity is established it’s not a conscious choice in most cases and that it can be in strong conflict with societal pressure?
It’s not clear to me what in gender identity can even be considered a social construct once separated from gender role.
Exactly what definition of gender identity are you using? And under that definition, how is that distinct from “sexual identity”?
And by the way, up there, when I refer to boy/girl colors and such, I wasn’t necessarily trying to refer to gender roles as much as I was trying to refer to gender expression.
Gender identity: Personal, internal sense of what gender you are. For most this correlates to the sex they were assigned at birth, based on their genitals. For trans people of various sorts, it doesn’t.
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “sexual identity”. Usually that refers to who you’re attracted to, similar to sexual orientation, so it’s entirely distinct from gender identity.
If gender does not necessarily depend on genitals, then what does it depend on?
I might be missing something, but to me, gender identity or the discovery thereof seems to follow a kind of circular reasoning:
“I think I’m [gender] because wearing X, doing Y and having my hair Z just feel right.”
“Wearing X, doing Y and having my hair Z feel right because I’m [gender].”
Given how much X, Y and Z for every gender are highly variant across cultures around the world, it’s possible that one may discover that they are more masculine, feminine, or divergent in one culture than another simply based on X, Y, and Z.
Sorry for the multi-post, but it just seems to me that gender identity is really less a reflection of the person and what they like to do and wear and more like a label that’s given by a culture.
Yeah the who you’re attracted to sounds more like “sexual orientation” to me. I think “sexual identity” or “sex identity” refers to how comfortable you feel with your particular body/genitals.
So we really are going full gender critical here. Hopefully just out of ignorance.
In the simplest of terms, it’s not about the clothes or the hair or any of the cultural signifiers. It’s about the body. Trans people don’t take hormones and get surgeries so they can wear the clothes they want or get the haircuts they prefer, they do it because their bodies don’t feel right to them. Ranging from full on disgust and revulsion to just feeling much better with the parts that match their gender identity. Not just the obvious primary sex characteristics, but down to things like skin, hair, musculature etc.
Many trans people do play up the gendered presentation, especially at first – hair, clothes, makeup etc, because they also want to be seen as their real gender, but that’s not necessary. Some don’t conform to the cultural stereotypes. You can have a butch trans woman, for example.
Nor does a butch woman have a male gender identity, just because she presents with stereotypical male styles of hair and clothing.
This might be closer to what you’re calling “sexual identity”, but I’ve never seen sexual identity used that way and it’s what gender identity means. If you actually want to communicate it’s helpful to use terms the way they’re commonly understood.
Thank you for clarifying things, and yes it was merely because I wasn’t quite clear on gender identity.
@MrSmith: You don’t believe in or understand what this term means, but you’ve got strong opinions on how it should be used.
That’s certainly a take.
A very American take, to be sure.
-(Also Reluctantly American)
What’s interesting with that is that MrSmith is from New Zealand.
I have no formal opinion on New Zealand.* It seemed familiar, is all.
*I’m sure that must disappoint New Zealanders. /s
I probably worded it wrong. Essentially someone decided that bad, or illegal, behaviour could be described as toxic masculinity or toxic femininity
What this does is almost excuse that bad behaviour and no doubt at some point in time a defence lawyer will try to use it as an excuse for their scumbag client (I think it was affluenza that was used at one point to try to mitigate some guys actions)
In summary, there’s no such thing as toxic masculinity or toxic femininity, only toxic behaviour in general
@MrSmith no you’re still wrong. There’s absolutely such a thing as both, as I laid out in reply to your other comment. ‘Someone’ describing some nebulously bad or illegal behavior as these things (that may or may not even be an accurate description, we have no way of knowing since you’re not providing any specifics about what you’re talking about) doesn’t negate the validity of the terms. Nor does it excuse anything. Neither term by nature is an excuse for anything. They’re descriptors of a way that over-policing of gender manifests.
That still makes no sense at all. Diagnosing the problem isn’t excusing it.
Plus, much of the point of toxic masculinity is that the behavior has been commonly excused, long before the term appeared. “Boys will be boys.”
To Devin: that’s how you see it and that’s all good. I won’t change your mind and you won’t change mind.
To the Jeff: I personally never agreed with the whole “boys will be boys” or “girl’s will be girls” either
Bad behaviour is bad behaviour, it doesn’t need anymore labels
Then maybe you should just refrain from telling other people how to use or not use words that you don’t put stock in. I’ll remind you that that’s how this thread started. You replied to Brumagem with “Why not just say toxic feminity”. If you don’t hold to the existence of either and think they’re meaningless (even after having been supplied definitions), maybe correcting other people’s usage isn’t the thing to do.
I have little respect for the idea of agreeing to disagree when one side just stonewalls, refusing to hear or supply anything. If this is how you’re going to interact on this topic, consider that you’ve contributed nothing and all you’ve done is waste everyone’s time.
Well Devin thats your opinion and you’re entitled to it
I wish I was entitled to my time and effort back before I realized you weren’t going to actually engage in a conversation in good faith.
there’s something sort of… question-begging about the implications made by the names themselves, maybe. but surely there is a taxonomic usefulness to the terms, even if you reject the let’s say diagnostic value.
i myself view pathological gender norms being pushed by broad segments of society as a real and material problem, but reasonable people can disagree. along with the inevitable bad-faith scumbags.
Toxic masculinity is the enforcement/acting of steriotypical masculinity to the point where you are not being true to yourself or actively making your life or the lives of others worse.
Toxic femininity if the enforcement/acting of steriotypical femenin traits to the point where you are not being true to yourself or making your lifr or the lives of others worse.
Very good description!
Evoking such stereotypes for fleeting social benefits or just for the sake of being a bully is not only harmful to the target, but for the name of masculinity/femininity itself.
Blame not the apple tree, but rather the one who uses their fruit to craft a poison apple.
There goes Malaya and their compulsive tendency to mock. It’s not like flowers are too cliche to be cool right?
Ah stole them from some jerk who was trying to manipulate me by givin’ me flowers.
One day, Danny will be tried for his war crimes.
Stole them from the boy who was trying to give me even more flowers.
Also just in general anyone can have flowers without it being suspicious or questionable. They’re plants. It’s really weird that owning plants became so gendered.
It really is strange. Like, who’s got the absolute gall care so much about what other people keep on their desk/counter/table? Why fuckin’ bother wasting your mental bandwidth on something so inconsequential in the first place, much less go even further beyond and assign specific roles and connotations to it? Humans are stupid.
I think that last line answered your question.
And most questions!
Bouquets are just big ol’ bundles of amputated plant genitals, when you think about it.
bundles of amputated plant genitals:: many of them containing toxic levels of Pollen, which can cause ‘Mayhem’ when they attempt to mate with the lining of my nose, … which causes extreme suffering, where the suffering is measured on Richter Scale.
It really super is. I’m finding gender increasingly tedious as I get older. I have more important things to worry about than how other people perceive me in the context of gender. Like literally anything else.
And if you want the other half of why Sal can’t open herself to any positive affection, there it is.
Sal is happy with her gift, Sal is enjoying something, but what, that’s not right. Sal can’t enjoy things, Sal can’t have a pleasant time with a friend, Sal can’t be in a good mood, because Sal’s supposed to be an angry biker chick who leans against walls smoking cigarettes and complaining, but that’s annoying and fake, but god forbid she stop acting like that for five minutes. If Sal acts differently, if Sal makes an effort to not be the person who’s consistently criticized for isolating herself to her apparent misery, then she’s weird and different and not acting like how she does and oooh Sal did you finally grow up?
Sal’s problems have never been inward, they’ve always been rooted in how other people treat her.
yup. 🙁
God, isn’t that the truth. I’m still trying to shake off the reputation of “lolrandom funny friend who gets mad at dumb shit”, half a lifetime later. I never even wanted it, my autistic alternate-rail thought process just led that way.
@Delicious Taffy
Oof, my sympathies. :C My autistic roommate leaned in a sliiightly different direction (“goofy ‘unobservant’ jokester who never gets mad at anything ever”), but he had a similar experience. Even though very little about that trope is actually true when applied to him, it was just the easiest way for him to deal with people before he had friends who actually understood being neurodivergent.
Meanwhile, I got stuck with “too impulsive and immature to ever make any serious decisions” by my parents because I was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid… and now I actually DON’T know how to make decisions as an adult because of that! Funny how that worked out. 😐
Although this is why I’d also be pretty happy to see her and Danny together, she needs a tender nerd in her life
… Is there supposed to be anything likable at all about Malaya?
Anyway, interesting to see Sal actually look happy for a few frames there.
Wait, other people aren’t enjoying Malaya here?
….Weird.
Malaya hasn’t gotten her comeuppance yet, so she remains a piece of shit. Once she does get her just desserts then I’ll have a reason to enjoy seeing her.
Look, if I can’t enjoy shitheads pre-comeuppance, I’m gonna be out a LOTTA characters.
You make a good point, it is fun to hate certain characters.
Heck, sometimes it’s not even ‘I love to hate’ them, sometimes it’s just ‘This person is a shithead, but in a way I find humorous or entertaining in fiction’.
I mean her brand of abrasive stubborn jackass can be likeable when pointed in the right direction.
Is Malaya confirmed enby yet?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/pronouns/
Malaya: Transcends gender
“She/They/Whatever”
probably my favorite gag in all of Willis: ‘yeah i’d like to punch her too”
I’m kinda amazed Sal has gone this long being roommates with Malaya without trying to strangle her or something similar.
That Sal has not murdered Malaya yet is one of the reasons I like Sal so very much. Many of my Mother’s friends shared so many traits with Sal. except the Anger. So I am, like Danny drawn to the strength of Sal. Not as a spouse or mate, but as a friend. Strongly drawn, strong smart women — rocking the world of webcomics since 1998 (or there abouts).
I like her hairstyle. Even if I still think the old one was better.
Her interactions with Mary!
Both those first two options are still very possible.
I’m not saying Sal would ENJOY them (outwardly), but they could happen.
Particularly irritating when it’s Malaya, who has long insisted that Sal is a faker, being all judgy that Sal’s doing something counter to appearances. At least Joyce is making an effort to be friends and not just idolize Sal for her coolness.
Meant to be a reply to Spencer. Ah, thread fails.
Malaya doesn’t actually care if Sal’s fake or not. She’s just a reflexive contrarian. How much do you want to bet she’d talk shit about Sal enjoying Apples to Apples even though that’s the polar opposite of the ‘badass biker chick’ image she likes to criticize and THEORETICALLY Malaya should be happy she’s doing something ‘genuine’ and outside said image?
Yeah I think it’s pretty clear here it doesn’t actually matter what Sal’s doing, Malaya will have something to criticize about it which is actually one of the things Sal hates most that people do to her. She could start wearing pink and take up ballet or shave off half her hair and get a new tattoo and she’ll either be a poser or not as badass as she want people to think.
yup. 🙁
Story of her freaking life alright. Heck, Sal does wear pink and her DS was pink and people still act like she’s either gotta be one or the other.
Not to throw around heavy words or nothin’, but the way Malaya acts toward (seemingly only) Sal looks a lot like bullying, from a certain perspective.
It doesn’t just look like bullying it is bullying. Sal just doesn’t play the victim to it and their relationship has been toxic both ways. Both of them have threatened each other with physical violence before. Malaya did actually attack Sal once but Sal physically provoked her first so that was just barely justified.
Malaya’s first real speaking appearance was in conflict with Sal.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/03-up-all-night-to-get-vengeance/beer-weiser/
It looks tremendously like bullying. There is no valid criticism here, Sal just can’t win. Before there maybe could have been a justification that they were trying to push Sal out of what could be seen as a harmful pattern of reactive self-definition, but that’s completely out the window. Malaya’s just being a jerk now.
Whaaaaat? Malaya and Sal having a toxic relationship? NEVER in ALL my born days have I ever even CONSIDERED such a thing.
Poor Sal. Between her mother, Malaya, “Jennifer” and the Toxic crusaders, she just can’t catch a break……
She doesn’t seem like the “online” kind of person, and so far it’s true that she’s not a “weed person”…. maybe a sensory deprivation chamber or something?
Look, I know it’s a little Farfetch’d, but please hear me out.
+1 and a thank you, well put.
In other words, Malaya is like Sal’s mother substitute. Poor Sal…
Yeah with Malaya it’s 100% damned if you do, damned if you don’t. They will find a reason to be a self-righteous twit about anything and everything. Especially where Sal is concerned.
Frustrating to see Malaya continue to needle Sal here, while Sal seems to have grown and stopped fully rising to Malaya’s bait. Not a good look for Malaya — comes across awfully childish.
Yeah. Granted, not surprising that Malaya’s being a shitty 18-year-old here, but I really would like for them to get some actual character growth in how they treat Sal, if only for Marcie.
What if malaya isn’t just a shitty 18-year-old. What if she is the personification of the negative comments of the internet?
She’s just like a burnt cake with covered with rich fondant: good looking on the outside, but terrible on the inside….
Unless of course she gets some kind of character development later on, but what are the odds of that?
I’m actually reading this as more lighthearted than Malaya and Sal’s usual interactions. This feels more like roommate/same friend group ribbing to me. I’m okay with that. I’d put this in the top ten of these two’s interactions.
That’s not really the vibe I’m getting from Sal here.
Sal, no. I don’t think she’s really upset in panel 3 but by the last one she’s definitely not enjoying this. I’m not reading Malaya’s ‘tone’ as particularly nasty though – she seems more playful than usual. YMMV.
If somebody ALWAYS “playfully” runs you down, even if you know it’s just them being them and their thing, sometimes it’ll still hurt.
Danny actually managed to cheer her up a bit after her encounter with Jennifer, Asher and co (in a very roundabout, more by letting her bleed out some of her paranoia without judging her for it, way than anything…) and Malaya’s pushing her back into “people play roles with certain expectations, there’s no such thing as a genuine, kind action” thinking.
Regarding your first bit there, I’ve had to remind friends to tone it down with the aggressive ribbing, specifically because it starts to feel genuine after a while, no matter if they mean it to or not.
It’s an attribute in myself that I get very worried about. In the speed of the moment I have dropped some very witty but razor sharp burns and have had to straight up apologize when I realize what I have said. It’s not always easy to bite my tongue to stop one from bursting forth, but once I’ve force myself to consider how it may feel to hear it, it dissipates. But DT, if you’re watching for your friends feelings, you must be a very caring friend indeed.
No argument here, as I said, Malaya definitely hit a nerve, playful or not.
Not at all, IMO.
Eh, YMMV.
The furrowing brow and possible decrease in smile on Sal’s part suggests there might be some genuine self-consciousness there, though since it only becomes a frown last panel that might just be her reflecting on how she got them and maybe not being thrilled with how that talk with Danny went.
Oh, Sal’s definitely self conscious but I don’t read her as particularly upset until the final panel.
Until Panel 4 I’d have agreed with you, but that’s where Malaya pushes it too far, and we see the effect it has on Sal in Panel 5.
You can say YMMV, but the mpg on this interaction absolutely cratered in the final stretch of this strip.
Oh, yeah, those comments are punching pretty hard on Sal’s issues button. I don’t think Malaya MEANT to though, so while intent is not impact and both do matter, I’m not really reading her as hostile there.
That feels like a stretch to me given their history, but you do you. As I said in response to another comment, I hope this progresses into Malaya realizing they’ve gone too far and acknowledging that Sal is working on behaviors that they used to criticize her for in the same fashion. I’d love to see that kind of character growth. But I need to see it, I’m not going to assume it. Malaya hasn’t earned that benefit of the doubt at this point. They have in fact actively sabotaged it.
As I said, YMMV. We’ve seen Malaya when she wants to be hurtful and to me, this doesn’t look like it. THAT SAID, that doesn’t mean Malaya WASN’T hurtful and that doesn’t make any hurt felt illegitimate. Given their history, Sal has no reason not to feel a little stung.
That YMMV invocation is doing way more work than it has any right to be expected to at this point. It needs a raise and a vacation.
mileage variations of the world unite!
Sorry, I dunno what else to say. XD I just don’t see the usual amount of intentional douchery from Malaya here. Obviously you do and that’s okay.
Honestly that’s how I felt about it on my first read. But then I remembered what we’ve seen of Sal and Malaya’s interactions so far, and it got a lot less fun. Unless their relationship had a MASSIVE shift during the timeskip, this probably isn’t nearly as lighthearted and affectionate as I’d like to think.
Even if Malaya intended it as lighthearted, I can’t fault Sal for being annoyed given said history.
Malaya is such a child. Imagine making fun of someone for having…flowers? There has to be a reason for her mindset to be so stuck in 7th grade.
On that note, while I understand Sal’s desire to maintain her reputation, it’d be more “in character” (for her reputation) to shut Malaya up instead of letting such juvenile teasing get to her. Trying to prove herself to an overgrown toddler is fruitless. The final confrontation between these two (in 7 years) will be one for the books.
*Their instead of her, ever wishing there was an edit function
“She/Her/Whatever”
D’oh
I hope Malaya gets hit by a truck and/or gets set upon by feral dogs.
I’ve really tried to find the good in her but instead she gives me even more reasons to hate her.
Hope Sal doesn’t take the bait on this one and end up doing something she will regret. Sal doesn’t deserve this and if that means cutting her(and by extension Marcie) out of her life, then she’ll end up happier in the long run.
Sal is not cutting Marcie out of her life.The reverse is possible tho.
I mean, at least Malaya’s not a nihilistic misanthrope that treats the entire damn world like a toy for their amusement.
Oh wait, last one of those we had fucked up doing their first “A Good”, which apparently makes all of the bullshit everyone else’s fault somehow.
Are you alluding to Mike?
Yup.
Mike always sucked, there, I said it.
He was interesting for the story at large but he was a terrible person, and his singular sacrifice doesn’t really redeem that fact completely.
Hell, I’d say it doesn’t provide any redemption at all.
“Perhaps if you had more time…then again, perhaps not. Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all. It is not for everyone.”
And he didn’t *need* redemption, nor deserve it. Frankly, I didn’t have a problem with Mike being an unmitigated bastard, but too many people kept buying into the same load of shit about him doing terrible things because it made everyone around him better. It didn’t, and yet people are harsher on Malaya (and some others) than they ever were on BlaineRossCarolLindaNaomi Jr., also known as Mike.
Sal wouldn’t have to cut out Marcie in order to cut out Malaya. But unfortunately, cutting out Malaya is not an option, they’re rooming together for the foreseeable year.
That may be true in principle, but in practice it often doesn’t work out so well. I’ve found that significant others often come as a package deal, and Marcie has been insisting Sal make changes for a while. I suspect if Sal tried to cut Malaya out (practical problems wrt being roommates aside), Marcie might see that as a rejection of her concerns.
Sal could easily point to other friends she’s made like Danny, Joyce, even Carla, as well as her reconciling with Amber and Walky. That would probably alleviate some of Marcie’s concerns. While it’s true couples often come as a package deal, they’re not literally joined 24/7 at the hip. There’s no reason Marcie can’t hang out with her friend and not Malaya at the same time. Myself and my boyfriend do it often (or did before the plague hit).
It’s different when your best friend and significant other actively dislike each other than just spending time apart. It takes a toll and hurts both relationships, and Marcie has specifically requested that Sal tries to get along with Malaya. And Sal has pointed to others (I think specifically Danny at one point) and that was insufficient. Progress has been made since then, but a large part of that progress has also been joining roller derby with Malaya. It’s not a stretch that Marcie could see a deterioration of that relationship as regression on Sal’s part.
Maybe cool it a little with things like “easily” and “no reason”, their friendship has been having a rocky time and we still don’t know what the effects the timeskip had on it exactly. When we last left off, the state of things was actively contradicting the base assumptions you seem to be operating off of.
At the time, Marcie was also concerned about other things, like Sal’s propensity for confrontation having splash back on her. Sal trying roller derby as an outlet also addressed THAT concern. And seeing Danny on her motorcycle and then slinking off after 5 seconds didn’t exactly give Marcie a ton of evidence of her main concern (which, at the time, was being Sal’s collateral damage) being addressed. Not only have there been months since then for Marcie to see how much that’s true, but we’ve seen her talking to Sal about Danny – right before Sal was okay with Marcie stepping away to ‘talk to another friend’ (AKA flirt with Sayid) (i.e. She’s not being Clingzilla anymore).
Last we left off, things could have been rocky again, but that was because Marcie admitted she’d had feelings for Sal and wasn’t sure how present those feelings still were. Which, granted, DID hit some of Sal’s insecurities but it seemed like that had been addressed some – ironically, BY Malaya. Sal was happy seeing them together at the end of that storyline. Heck, since that time we’ve seen Sal deliberately pick a time to hang out when Malaya wasn’t around and Marcie’s reaction was pretty much ‘Yeah, yeah, smart ass, clever’ with a smile. Sure, never being able to be in the same spot would be a drain on the relationship but they’ve both been willing to be around Marcie even outside the roommate thing.
I guess she could see it as regression but that seems harsh for Marcie considering she knows they don’t like each other and her major concerns have been addressed in other ways she knows or has reason to know of. Sure, if things deteriorate so badly they can’t even be around each other when not forced to by the university, that’ll be a strain, but A) A lot of that will depend on how specifically things deteriorate and B) I still don’t think spending time with them separately would be that herculean a task.
There’s absolutely zero chance of Sal intentionally cutting Marcie out of her life no matter what. Even if she shifts so that Marcie’s no longer her Most Important Person, Marcie’s still going to have been the Most Important Person for 13 years of her life. That’s gonna leave a mark. She’s also established herself as Safe and Trustworthy for Sal the longest. Walky, Joyce, Danny, even Carla are closer to Sal now and so she doesn’t HAVE to dump everything on Marcie anymore, but she’s got oldest billing. If chips get really low that could matter.
If that means putting up with Malaya sometimes, she’ll do it.
Not that she has much choice BUT to put up with her now. They’re roommates.
Wishing a painful death on someone for making some snooty remarks is sort of extreme
And yet oh so human, innit?
“You are technically correct. The best kind of correct.”
How did Sal get this “reputation” anyway? Like what is Malaya even talking about? I know Sal is cool among her friend group but is she really well known enough to have a reputation? How many people actually care about Sal’s perception? I think it’s just Malaya.
Sal’s decently known as being the motorcycle chick. Also she was involved in multiple violent incidents in the first semester, which probably didn’t go unnoticed by the wider student body.
I think it just feels that way because we the audience have witnessed it. We’re essentially part of her friend group, but most people are completely indifferent to others they don’t have a personal connection with and of the friend group how many actually idolize Sal? Like 3 people? Joyce, Jennifer, and I don’t know Carla?
Jennifer, idolising Sal? That feels like a slight stretch. Maybe at first, but nowadays I can’t get a read on that kid.
I thought she’d gotten over Sal too but her last appearance confirmed for me she still holds Sal on a pedestal. Otherwise she wouldn’t receive such satisfaction from her potential jealousy. Sal’s living in Jen’s head rent free.
Jen definitely thinks Sal is hot.
I’m not saying idolize, I’m saying that a large chunk of the student body is aware of the cool motorcycle chick because they’ve seen her around, and are aware of things like her getting into a violent fistfight on the steps of her dorm building, or y’know, the multiple actual car chases
I think you have a point with the fist fight, but I actually think the one event that might have earned Sal the most notoriety or reputation is her fight with Amazi-girl at the Desanto rally because there were a lot of people there to witness it. The car chases seem like big deals but how many people do you think actually know the details about who was involved in them?
And of course, some people still think she is Amazi-Girl.
The above mentioned rally-fight was the perfect cover. No one would ever suspect Lex Luthor of *being* superman. Of course Sal is Amazi-Girl.
I think Malaya might have a crush on Sal
Waaaaaaaaay back in the olden days of yore, she was well known enough Daisy wanted to see if they could get her story for the human interest section of the newspaper. No way in HELL Sal would agree to that but she’s definitely made a splash on campus.
I know some people are obsessed with reading Malaya negatively, and I will say that doing so is easy for this comic. I’m choosing to read her as being innocently (if annoyingly) smartass and not really aiming to sting with these barbs, because I don’t really enjoy hating one of the very few complex nonbinary characters in the comic.
Hey, come on, “obsessed” is a strong word. There’s been a lot of blanket-defining the comments section overall, lately.
Up until Panel 4 this could have been just roommates taking friendly shots at each other, but Malaya took it too far, and they have too much of a history of very directed hostility (without much justification) at Sal for that to feel innocent to me at this point. This is also made all the more egregious for the fact that they’re turning around and mocking Sal for taking a step away from what they spent all of last semester accusing her of doing.
You’re throwing an awful lot at folks who react negatively to the way they treat Sal. Some of us have been on the receiving end of this kind of treatment, and it hits hard. Obsession is kind of a hefty charge.
You’ll have to excuse me, but I can’t really say I see panel four as spiteful.
Sure, Malaya’s teasing Sal because of her “tough” reputation, but she’s using fairy tales to do so.
I just don’t get how anyone could take that seriously.
What she’s doing is invoking heavily feminine tropes in a mocking way. Fairy tales are not innocuous in this context, they’re especially weighty when used mockingly because they carry the weight of accusations of naivety and condescension.
I can only assume that you can’t see it because you’ve never been on the receiving end of targeted harassment of this sort. I’m genuinely happy for you on that score, but as a result, I’ll ask you to take the word of those who have that it hurts, and not to belittle it.
Well, I just have trouble seeing the context in things from time-to-time (literal thinking).
Thanks for the explanation, though.
Yeah, even post-skip we haven’t seen Malaya cool it with Sal (see: roller derby and genuine animosity there, which was last night) so while I could see them meaning panel 4 in a less genuine way than other digs from their expression, they don’t have the rapport for Sal to take it that way. Especially since it hits in a sensitive spot, and one Malaya HAS needled them for in the past. Given Malaya’s also historically been an asshole to Sal, I could also see it being their genuine hostility to each other.
I can respect the spirit of this. It is really easy to see the negative in Malaya’s actions and hate on them for it. I think the problem most people have with them is that this is repeated behavior. You can say this is just Malaya having a good natured jab at Sal but what about all the countless other times? Malaya doesn’t really have the credit for most people to give them the benefit of the doubt here.
Heck even the Author appears to want Malaya’s behaviour to be viewed negatively. She comes into the room, starts needling Sal, and then positions herself so close that her camera angle is as a villain lording their power over the -perceived-to-be-helpless- fallen hero. Sal is literally in a corner (*not* metaphorically however) and Malaya has used that to box her in and stand taller while bullying Sal. Malaya is lucky Sal doesn’t just sucker punch her. Sal is doing well by keeping her back turned. The next best would be to simply ignore Malaya’s existence. Clearly Malaya behaves this way for a reason, so if her behaviour is not fed a reaction, she won’t know what to do with herself.
I’m surprised it’s working, considering that the last protagonist-turned-assclown was shockingly beloved despite being an abusive coward.
There’s one obvious difference.
By that argument, people shoulda loved Blaine. Y’know, since one’s just older than the other.
This is a little frustrating, cuz Malaya has been giving Sal shit the entire time they’ve known each other (arguably justifiably) because Sal puts up this massive facade and never lets anyone see who she really is. But here Sal is, dropping that facade just a little bit, and putting something on her desk that she likes but that breaks from the idea that everyone has of her, and Malaya starts needling her about it like “Wow, YOU have flowers? Seriously??”
I hope that this scene culminates with Malaya giving Sal some credit for stepping a bit outside of her “too cool to care” persona
No-win situations fuckin’ suck.
People who craft no-win situations suck more. You hear that Jack B. Sowards? You suck! (actually not, that kobayashi maru has generated some fantastic fictional drama). But people who drop others into those situations are just shit.
I’d really love to see Malaya realizing they’ve gone too far and acknowledging this. Seeing that kind of character growth would be great for Malaya, and it’d go a long way towards making me not dread seeing them in-strip.
They’re not a character I love to hate, I just don’t enjoy them.
THIS. this is so manipulative and another example of why sal is so rightfully bitter about how people project these images onto her, no matter what she does people just try to make her feel worse about who they think she wants to be, and malaya is the absolute worst about it and I just want sal to have a nice day and feel nice 🙁
It’s not so much about the specifics. It’s about A) Malaya is a reflexive contrarian and B) She dislikes Sal, so they’re not even gonna bother trying to rein it in the way they do with Marcie.
Sal, that’s not how stealing works.
It would be legally, if Certain People had their way.
I mean, she’s not technically lying. She rejected the gift, then took part of it when he wasn’t watching. That’s basically stealing, but Danny’s not going to put up a fuss if he found out.
I think it was just her accepting the gift on her terms. Gifts have to be reciprocated somehow to balance the books, but she doesn’t owe him anything in return if she stole them!
Goddamn, is this the secret saddest (non-mortal) strip yet?
There’s the time Dina realised she was (currently) just a rebound.
that happened? when??
Right around here, assuming I don’t get ninja’d.
oh wow yeah i’d completely forgotten about that. thanx
I like to think (hope) those two are past that little inconvenience in their relationship, because I’d hate to see Dina make another face like that.
This never really went anywhere and a later strip had Dina comment to the effect that Sarah’s cynicism is repeatedly unfounded.
I definitely think it was gonna be a big drama bomb, but then was dropped which, I dunno, I guess I’m okay with that? Becky being in love with Joyce her whole life is a big story but between that and the current ongoing crisis of Becky’s sexual hangups I find the latter to be a bit more interesting since it’s between Becky and Dina, and “I can’t be with Joyce” territory feels like something that can still be explored with Dorothy.
Oh Sal, no. 🙁
So, that whole little moment was just so that Sal would have an excuse to give Malaya? XD
Malaya, why do you still exist?
Out of all the characters to randomly disappear during the time-skip, why weren’t you one of them?
Because Jigsaw didn’t throw Mary into a Reverse-Beartrap, and if Mary gets to come back then so does Malaya.
Malaya looks so happy in the fourth panel.
It’s a very nice face.
Oooooh! Nice gravatar
Faces popping slightly over ledges or around corners are always fun.
Shut the fuck up Malaya, ya jealous.
Sal should’ve rebutted with that.
Malaya <3
Sal “stole” them exactly to avoid Malaya’s comments. She knows very well what kind of nice and supportive person her roommate is. But I wonder, in the far and very remote chance that Sal and Danny become an item, would Malaya be only annoying and mock Sal? Maybe she would support her because she’s following her heart♡? Nah! That would become an endless mine of bad jokes! I kinda want to see that…
Malaya would mock and sass, yes. I also expect her to nervously and discreetly take Sal aside and plead that Sal not ‘entertain’ Danny in their room without prior arrangement, just she’d know to be somewhere else.
Actually, this would be way better than my thoughts of Malaya telling Danny and Sal not to meet in their room because doesn’t want people to even remotely think that he is going to visit them and not Sal.
Malaya rips on her for performative badassery…. which you could kinda argue or at least understand.
But then doing it when she just genuinely HAS a flower.
Malaya is one of the worst assholes.
She’s a bully and that was clear from early on.
“No bullying in the halls!!!”
“15 seconds detention for you!!!”
“When will you learn?”
Tbh, I hate Malaya and Panel 4 reads to me as being happy about getting to mock/make fun of Sal. I don’t know about anyone else here, but I often find bullies tend to smile WHILE BULLYING. Because they like to do so. Not because they are being friendly/not hostile/not intending harm.
Like a sociopath getting off on manipulating someone or lying successfully.
Malaya could try letting Sal enjoy having nice things and not be a jerk to her for once.
Sal, I know you did this precisely to have this answer, and yet I still think it’s cute anyway.
Can Malaya just not?
God why cant she let Sal have nice things?
Because Sal being happy is something that Malaya opposes on principle.
YES Malaya is awful and I’m happy to see them and I want them to appear in more strips. I guess it’s mostly because I really need some non-binary characters.
Also, I’m curious about possible character developments for them.
She doesn’t have to imagine, she can just use her eyes.
I wish I could edit or delete my comment. I meant to say “they” and “their”. It’s been so long since we’ve seen Malaya that I forgot they were non-binary. At least with this memory associated, I should be able to now.
i mean, as it turns out, she/they/whatever are on record not caring about which pronouns they’re called. although “whatever” was perhaps not literally meant as a pronoun.
I’ve got a friend who’s said a few times that until they can safely transition, their main pronouns are “you/bongo”. I may be misremembering the first one, due to being drunk every time it comes up.
Is it cool to ask a They/Them pronoun question here wrt? Normally I would just post the question, but I worry that asking is kinda like “ugh, why don’t you know this already why do I have to tell you this” and I wouldn’t know how to google my answer.
*a They/Them pronoun question wrt pronouns like She/They, like how Malaya described themself with Booster.
I’m cool with it, but keep in mind I haven’t looked into the subject as much as I probably should have by now, myself. I also don’t use mixed pronouns, though (they/them exclusively), so that may also be an important factor.
If it’s meant respectfully I don’t see a problem with it. People who can’t deal with a genuine question are jerks.
With a gentle caveat that sometimes we’re sick of hearing the questions themselves out of repetition, even if they’re entirely harmless on their own. And another caveat that sometimes Google’s results refuse to be anything close to informative if you don’t already know the right key words, so a human interaction (even just a link to the right place) is the most constructive vehicle for answers.
Yeah this is what I was worried about, ’cause I think asking someone to explain something really foundational and important to them, even out of genuine interest and wanting to know for future reference, can still prove to be extremely exhausting for them.
So Malaya describes themself as She/They, and another forum I frequent lets you put your pronouns under your avatar and some folks do put theirs as “He/They’ and “She/They.” When I see “They/Them” for pronouns I always veer towards those even if they have ‘He’ or ‘She’ there as well.
Essentially, I would like to ask if it’s appropriate to refer to someone with ‘He/They’ and ‘She/They’ with masculine or feminine pronouns, and if those pronouns can be used interchangeable with gender neutral pronouns.
Thank you very much for taking me up on this.
Short answer: Yes.
Longer answer: People can have different relationships with their pronouns, but all you really have to go off of is what they tell you, and if they say “use this or this” then either should be fine. I get gravitating toward they/them, I do that sometimes too, but it’s not necessary and also fine to go between them.
Another note: I try to avoid describing pronouns as masculine or feminine these days. Someone can use she/her pronouns, for instance, without identifying as female or with femininity. I understand there’s some convenience factor, and I’m not explaining the issues it may have all that well, but just something to think about.
That’s fine to default to that, and probably good practice for getting used to using gender neutral pronouns for people in general! But if someone says they are okay with she/her or he/him, then that means they’re okay with those pronouns, and it’s okay to use them!
A friend of mine who goes by He/They told me that it means he prefers he, but they is okay as well. Another friend goes by They/He, meaning they prefer they, but he is okay.
But you’re probably fine with either.
What everyone said above, plus some people do like to switch around. I’ve been using she/her and they/them for Malaya, though her profile says they’re indifferent to which pronoun is used.
Hi, I use She/them. That means either set is fine! Thank you for asking.
For example, if I’m talking about Malaya, I might say “won’t they ever give Sal a break” and “gosh, I hope she steps on a lego” and either is correct.
Thank you for the input, everyone.
the prince carried them. On his bike.
*bring bring* [yeah, that’s the sound phones used to make, f**kin millennials]
“Hello?”
“Hey. It’s me from five days ago. Know what I’m doing?”
“… You’re calling it?”
“I am FUCKING CALLING IT!”
ABSOLUTELY i was about to comment that if you hadn’t showed up.
have a medal 🥇
Go away, Malaya.
Actually, you’d think she wouldn’t be a dick about how other people express themselves after they had to figure themselves out, too.
That’s just dickish.
ok, preamble: i agree that Malaya is being really bad today, and i’m not looking to make excuses for their behaviour. i’m just interested in what might be going on in their head. they’re still accountable for their words and actions, obviously.
so here’s my thought, people have wondered before whether their obsession with “fakiness” is because they feel fakey themself, especially wrt gender/presentation; i wonder whether they’re especially mad (orenvious) towards Sal because they project on her this perception of “successful” womanhood. Or on the contrary, though both may hold true because brains are weird, they suspect Sal is “faking it” in some way and actually shares their unease with their common gender-assignation and they wants to expose her.
that would also go some way to explaining the specific target of their ridicule today. Sal being ok with having flowers points to a potentially more wholesome femininity than they’d thought.
any thoughts?
If it were true that Malaya is trying to “expose” someone else for having a non-cis gender identity, they would be an EVEN MORE SHITTY PERSON. 😂
not what i meant!
anyway Regalli’s convinced me that while gender may be part of it, it’s probably more about feeling envious of Sal’s confidence in her appearance.
Thanks! More her aesthetic than pure appearance, I think, but yeah. Sal does not worry about how flowers conflict with her Rebellious Biker image until Malaya starts pressing, her issue with getting them from Danny was all in her trust issues about manipulation and gifts as future leverage. As someone pointed out in another thread, her 3DS is pink, and while I’m sure that’s in part ‘what was available for cheap’ she clearly doesn’t have an aversion to the color. I don’t think Malaya’s reached a point in her gender identity exploration where they can feel totally comfortable with those explicitly feminine social trappings even if they do like them, and that could definitely be a cause for insecurity seeing someone who DOES, not caring how incongruous people might consider them with her look (or at least seeming not to.)
(Which is probably a thing where Sal, being a pretty conventionally attractive straight cis woman, is far less likely to have her gender questioned the way Malaya as a queer nonbinary person might. I wouldn’t be shocked if Malaya’s worried about going more feminine and then that being used as ‘proof’ that they’re not ‘really’ nonbinary, this was clearly just a phase. As someone who took a really long time to realize that I’m not totally a woman because my favored aesthetic is low-effort femme and my dysphoria’s almost all bodily, and has dealt with some well-meaning but Not Getting It responses from parents since realizing, I can sympathize. Doesn’t excuse being a dickweed about it, but I can see that ‘I’m a girl, I can have flowers’ hitting Malaya badly because of Complicated Gender Feels that Sal probably doesn’t recognize would hurt Malaya the same way Malaya doesn’t recognize their comments hit Sal as badly as they did.)
yes, there was a Slipshine pinup of Sal that i found very characteristic, where she’s skinny dipping all by herself in a lake at night, her motorbike parked on the beach behind her, and she’s standing waist-deep in the water, eyes closed, smoking a cigarette, looking totally relaxed.
Her style is actually not meant for others. Sure sometimes it has its social perks, like, it makes her intimidating; but really she could do with less attention, and she’s doing fine by herself. her issues don’t have so much to do with her self-image but more with the cost of letting someone in. Of course she’s still a human person so being entirely self-reliant and lonely is not a happy life, but she’s very protective of the comforts of being a loner, and pretty troubled by any chink in that bubble.
so, when Malaya teased that flowers are corny, she didn’t care, what stung is when they remarked that flowers are also gift-y.
As for Complicated Gender Feels, yeah, that’s sort of what i was getting at in the first place. You’re right, while Sal doesn’t know what this could mean to Malaya (i guess Malaya’s not out to Sal?), she may unwittingly be touching a nerve. To Malaya’s ears it might come off kind of smug.
I would think Malaya is out to Sal– I mean, I doubt they sat her down and had a conversation about it or anything, but in the strip where they meet Booster 1. Sal is presumably still in the room, having been there in the previous strip 2. Malaya mentions wearing a binder throughout November, which Sal may or may not have really noticed/inferred from. But it does make it sound like it’s something Malaya expects is common knowledge.
right, i went back to that strip (link) and was about to get back here to say the same. so i guess they are out to Sal.
so idk, what does it say about Sal’s retort then? Malaya was teasing her, but not badly. was it an insensitive thing to say? i’m not in a position to judge.
I’d call it about as insensitive as Malaya, who Sal DOESN’T have a relationship with where they can really joke about flowers being uncharacteristic for Sal, making the comments in the first place. Maybe slightly moreso because it’s gender specifically and Malaya probably doesn’t know how much the Cool Girl reputation bothers Sal, but I think ‘unthinkingly insensitive and grating on each other’ is a decent read on both of them this particular strip.
Yeah, I could very much see some insecurity re: gender in Malaya’s whole schtick about fakeness. They do seem more comfortable with it than before, but sometimes the ‘yeah I don’t care at all, whatever’s fine’ comes off as a ‘I do care very much but am not yet comfortable enough to say so.’
The other thing about Sal that I can see Malaya envying is how she genuinely is pretty comfortable with how she presents, just in general. She doesn’t like being put on the pedestal of Perfect Coolness, but she also doesn’t want to change anything about herself – other people’s reaction to her is on THEM, not on her. Which I suspect ties into her realizing she would never please her parents, even when trying to force herself to fit what they want her to be. (I don’t think Family Weekend was the only time she downplayed herself during a visit. I do think it’s possibly the last.)
Technically speaking, can you steal something that was freely offered? To steal something, you have to take something that is not yours, without the permission of the individual, who actually owns the thing you are taking. Even though Sal did not accept Danny’s offering of flowers, Danny never retracted the offer; at no point did Danny say, “well then, you cannot have them”. He even said, if Sal wanted something, she just had to see him; that something could include his flowers.
Sal’s self-image and self-esteem desperately needs to believe that she doesn’t owe Danny anything.
She is just being a tsundere about it.
She also stole a dude’s heart.
Awwww…..
I feel like this is like spongebob and patrick stealing a baloon on national free baloon day
The intention is very much different though.
She’s trying to reinforce the idea, if not in others than in herself, that she truly owns herself, that she has reign over herself.
Say what you want about it, but at least it’s not as bad as Ruth’s maladaptive coping strategy.
I feel like the important question no one here is asking is are those hydrangeas or chrysanthemums
Or possibly peonies?