I forget which Harry Potter movie it was but that scene when Ron is in a conversation with Dumbledore:
…”but that’s bad, right?”
–“No! It’s good! We didn’t know that before.”
That shtick predates Potter – the old TV show “F Troop” did it in 1966.
I’m certain its older than that… it sounds like a vaudeville pr burlesque routime.
Dagnabbit, Muskie, you’re right! In my head, we saw them leave right after Jacob’s brother came back from the restroom, but NOPE. Jump cut to Danny. Next time we see Joyce & Jacob, they’re walking into the building in mid-conversation.
It’s flat. Toneless. Tired. Even slightly muffled by the pillow the lack of spirit comes through. The only shift in tone is when she asks “It’s what you wanted, right?”, when her cadence and pitch raise just a hair, only to drop back down to dead flat at “No. We’re not.”
I’m like 98% sure she still cried, or will cry, if she hasn’t. As an ex broke up with me one time I didn’t cry in front of him even though I was devastated – I also was pretty much in shock (because I knew he had a hard time handling people crying, and I liked him too much to do that), but as soon as he left I broke down.
(Though I’m probably shoving my own feelings of that situation into Joyce’s now)
How about you can only pick up ‘mistakes’
You can pick up more vaguely defined mistakes as you collect mistakes and grow in cynicism, becoming emotionally heavy.
Jacob just lied to his brother, cheated on his girlfriend, kissed another girl and then told said girl she’s not good enough, I don’t know what you think mature means, but that isn’t it. Mature, in this sense, means you are mentally and emotionally developed and Jacob is none of the above.
I think Jacob is mature because he *didn’t* go with Joyce while with Raidah even though he clearly could. He realized that it was cheating, and that is a bad way to start a relationship (Joyce will always wonder if he’ll cheat again) and ended it at the start.
I interpret his kissing Joyce as a goodbye/it would’ve been nice gesture, as well as a final check to see if he really does want something different that what he thought, which is why he said he’d have to revise his list of “things he’s looking for in a relationship.”
The way the situation started was him trying to help ease a friend out of an awkward situation even though she started it. What happened though, was him learning that his list of “things i want out of a relationship” potentially needed revising, and it made him think. And the multiple lies involved doomed any relationship with her, which he also realized.
Lastly, it cost him his relationship with Raidah since he knew he broke her trust by cheating, and he didn’t try to pretend it didn’t happen. What’s more, he could have, and if this comic was more like a sitcom (or real life), he probably would have.
So that’s what i think Jacob’s mental process are here and why i think he’s acting maturely here. If i’ve missed something or misinterpreted something, please let me know!
Well, you skipped over the whole “for his brother’s approval” part – both in terms of why he was with Raidah in the first place and why he played along with the whole deception.
You’re missing that Joyce tried to come clean and he said no, because his brother’s approval is the end all be all to him. Joyce realized what she did and tried to fix it to the best of her abilities and he refused because he can’t stand to disappoint his brother. He kissed her and then told her why she’s not good enough and blamed her for his choice to lie. Him breaking up with Raidah was the only good move he made here. A mature response would have been to come clean from the get go and confront Joyce about what happened and if the lie was going to be a deal breaker then walk away. What he did instead was tell her not to tell the truth and nope out of his life because he wanted to keep her in it, then later kissed her and told her she wasn’t good enough and that this was a deal breaker, all while implying she bares the blame for him lying to his brother because he likes her. Everything he did was because he has a childlike pathological need to please his brother, none of it was mature because of why he did it and how he went about it.
I wonder some about how Sarah’s going to feel about this.
Hmm, you know, if Sarah tries to talk to Jacob, maybe trying to talk him into giving Joyce a chance, wonder if it’d come up how Jacob was oblivious that Joyce was trying to set him up before with Sarah, and that’s going to be its own can of worms.
Eh, he knows, and asked Joyce why they might be a good fit,what was Sarah like personality wise. Joyce realized her only answer besides “she’s kind of an abrasive loner” was “Um, you’re both black I guess?” which she tried to put a less horrible spin on. Jacob said “you white kids all have the same script”. Luckily for Joyce they actually got to know and like each other more from there.
She’s likely not going to. She stopped pursuing him herself because she realised Jacob was more a committed relationship type while she just wanted a few one night stands at most.
If we’re actually looking for a term instead of admitting to a simple chuckle, We would vote for “A few* casual hook-ups.”
And since Our vote is infinite (gotta love being emperor of the internet and all), that’s what it’s going to be, by imperial decree. Huzzah!
*Note, in this particular context, we do not adhere to the XKCD standard of what “a few means” (two to five, by the way). Sarah might need anything from two to two hundred casual hook-ups to get her full satisfaction from Jacob.
I may be misremembering that chunk of storyline, but I was under the impression Sarah didn’t so much “stop pursuing Jacob” as it was her get the impression that her personality was not compatible with his / that she’d have to pretend to be something she wasn’t. I seem to remember her temporarily acting very falsely perky and cheery.
I’m bummed about this outcome. Not so much because I could see that ship being perfect or any such thing. I just wanted to see Joyce’s whitebread family dealing with the Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner scenes.
Oh no, (generic white) you’re only allowed to be friends with “them” (in a “it’s nice that you’re making an effort to get them up to a higher level” kind of way). Getting in a romantic relationship that assumes you truly see them as equal is taking it too far.
Jacob would -not- be accepted by Carol as Joyce’s boyfriend. Not in a million years.
Might finally be the push her dad would need to leave her mum, when he sees how happy they are together, and how much he respects her, and sees her as an equal and a partner rather than a subordinate who must agree with and give in to him in all things.
He might realize how much Joyce lucked out, and how Jacob was bringing out the very best in her– not just her compassion, which was always there, but also her sharp, slightly snarky sense of humour.
Joyce lucked into the perfect guy for her, and is good for him, too– and Carol is dead-set against their relationship because of his skin colour?!
Shame we probably won’t ever get to see that scene now, because while this would definitely be the wrong foot to start out on, they really would be good together. And maybe some day they’ll get a second chance.
Kind of a stretch to assume Joyce’s mom is a racist, isn’t it? Unless I’m forgetting something. Horrid religious fundamentalism and racism sometimes don’t, though often do, go hand in hand.
Good! I can feel Raidah’s anger. She is defenseless. Take your Jacob! Strike her down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete.
She was heart-feltedly arguing the position that he didn’t need to break up with Raidah three seconds before being kissed.
Inner Evil Joyce may indeed be manipulative, but Surface Joyce is still pretty simple and tries to do the right thing. Joyce is responsible for owning up to both, she’s working on it.
Yeah…. I’m sure “Joyce rubs out a few” will be a serene story about finding your personal calm, not a hysteric emotional roller coaster of a tangled lust/guilt complex coupled with an ongoing personal religious crisis.
I’m not getting “blaming Sarah” vibes out of this. I think this is just her saying what happened, acknowledging that Sarah didn’t like Raidah and Jacob together, and hurting because she (Joyce) caused all of this to happen in a way that hurt everyone involved.
Does she really NEED an excuse to use that thing on Raidah? I think to Sarah’s been looking for the opportunity to use it on her but has just been holding herself back for the sake of not losing it.
Hi, let’s not downplay the effects sustained verbal abuse can have. Raidah’s been singling out and attacking Sarah for a year now, and I can personally attest just how damaging an extended harrassment campaign can be.
Hi, that’s not really an excuse to escalate to physical violence with potentially-fatal results okay thanks. Besides the fact that Raidah’s dad owns a law firm and, as she herself pointed out and Sarah agreed the last time the two managed to hold a conversation (when Sarah was apologizing for punching Raidah in the face at the clothing store), him suing Sarah for battery would throw a wrench in her scholarship and wreck her chances of becoming a lawyer…let alone assault with a deadly weapon.
As it stands now Sarah shouldn’t go after her with a bat or do anything more to Raidah. I do feel like she deserved the punch to the face and other than it being a dumb move I don’t really object to it.
But as far as recent history goes Raidah hasn’t done anything wrong don’t blame her for Joyce’s poor decision.
I mean I’m pretty sure she plans to do things to Joyce but they don’t know it yet. And it would have to be pretty bad for me to consider a baseball bat a just if stupid solution.
Yeah. The punch was also a heat of the moment thing after a year of abuse and Raidah trying to isolate Sarah from her new friends. Not a good or smart move, but an understandable reaction.
Baseball bat would be premeditated, WAY more dangerous, and way less defensible. If you need to get the dangerous rapist who drugged your friend down for the count and apparently had it handy? Then it’s still not a good idea legally but hey, one hit in the moment is probably defensible, especially since if Ryan had gone to the police after Sarah it would likely have been in enough time that they could prove Joyce was roofied, who he would probably also be accusing. (Which is, I am certain, why Ryan did not go to the police.)
Raidah literally did nothing today. Joyce didn’t even hear the breakup remarks, which still would not merit a brutal assault. Raidah is in no way, shape or form responsible for either Joyce’s or Jacob’s terrible decisions here.
Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that Sarah should go after Raidah. I see how it reads now, and while Raidah fucking off into orbit and never coming back would be sweet, Sarah should not send her there herself.
I’m sorry if my previous comment sounded callous towards you, but my job kind of requires me to not get physical just because a customer gets verbally abusive. Granted, once they lay hands on anyone else, that rule flies out the window.
Yeah, I’m sure that’ll hold over real well in a court of law. “Yes, your honor, I did attack the plaintiff with a baseball bat, and yes, she has been left with broken bones/permanent scars/in a vegetative state as a result of my attack…but in my defense, she had been verbally harassing me for some time (though we had not actually interacted for weeks at the time of my attack) and it was my birthday.” See how that works out.
See my reply to Zero immediately above. (Also, the only time Sarah has actually used the baseball bat is against Ryan – it could very easily be argued that he did actually deserve being hit in the head with the bat in that situation. Since, you know, he was trying to rape Joyce).
It was also a moment where Joyce was unarmed (since her glass was broken) and basically defenseless (since she was drugged), and Sarah certainly heard at least a little of his threatening before she hit him. (I don’t think much, I think Sarah got there as fast as she could and hit him the moment she got there and the party was crowded, but he was talking the panel before so she heard enough.) Joyce was in imminent danger. Sarah removed the threat. The first hit was necessary*; the second was… maybe less so but it was certainly cathartic so I still give Sarah the justified here running on comic logic.
* Joyce broke a fucking glass in his face and he just got angrier, there was no nonviolent way to get him out of the picture and getting him down fast was paramount.
Yeah, it’s not a good idea to start dating a person who just broke up with someone they had been dating for a while. You have to give them time to dissociate from the couple they had been and reestablish themselves as a single person. Otherwise, you get echoes of the old couplehood messing things up. If Jacob and Joyce had started dating now, it wouldn’t work out.
I’ve learned that the hard way, so as sucky as everything is right now, this is probably for the best on multiple levels. Joyce learns a lesson about real life, Jacob (hopefully) learns that his checklist isn’t healthy or realistic, a relationship that could only have ended badly because of Jacob’s immediate switch from Raidah to Joyce without time to heal in between is dodged, and maybe, just maybe, things will be able to turn out better for them through all these things happening.
The thing is, the universe where Joyce says “No, no I am not” a Harrison says “Oh, well good day then” and walks off and Jacob and Raidah do brunch and she networks and their relationship circles the drain a while longer with Jacob not putting into words how he feels disattisfied… Isn’t the better universe, IMO.
Joyce fibbed a single syllable. But for her involvement, things would have stayed stagnant trending towards resentment. For good and evil, she didn’t plan it and “credit” for the outcome is an illusion. She could fairly be wondering “I just wanted to see a baby, why does it hurt so much?” The approach of “NO ONE MUST HARBOR EVEN ONE DROP OF IMPERFECTION, LEST THEY REAP THEIR WELL DESERVED SUFFERING” approach seems a little heavy handed.
Oh come on, I don’t disagree with the sentiment here, but “Joyce fibbed a single syllable.” does hold up. Syllable are definitely not a relevant unit for measuring the severity of a lie ^^
What Joyce actually did: Say “yes” in a moment of weakness then immediately tried to run away, then was unexpectedly backed up on her answer by the person she thought would immediately call her out on it.
Was what Joyce did bad? Yes, of course.
Was Jacob going along with it a far worse thing? Most certainly.
Once again. I still say this is a decent way for this little plotline to go. Lessons (hard lessons sure, but still lessons) have been learned. And Joyce shall be fine….I’m sure….
Sarah really owes Joyce something good for her birthday. I don’t know what’s equal to ruining the relationship of a girl you dislike but it has to be pretty substantial. Like more than just a giftcard.
I really hope this isn’t Joyce putting all of this on Sarah…once Joyce learned the scheme she took full responsibility for her actions. And things only soured because she lied to Harrison, Jacob more or less said minus that ONE thing they could’ve been together.
I also hope Joyce apologizes for blaming Sarah when she made her own decisions and Sarah mostly gave her the idea to pursue him and didn’t even make suggestions of how.
Although honestly, I think Jacob might have been unintentionally lying when he said it proberally would have worked out if she was honest from the beginning.
Which is to say, she might not make the connection between the strain in Joyce’s voice and crying, or if she does, she respects her boundaries/can’t be bothered with it if it’s deliberately being hidden from her.
I hate birthday. You’re celebrating about something you don’t have controll and is the sign of you get older. There is nothing positive in birthday. And if something bad happens in that day you feel extra bad because it’s you birthday and the myth say that everything that day is suppose to be great.
…I don’t get it, why is Joyce tagged in this comic? I don’t see her cheery face at all. Just Sarah and some maudlin, brown-haired girl who says seemingly happy things that don’t make anyone happy.
I’ve long thought that Joyce is going to become so disillusioned that she starts thinking that maybe Amazi-Girl has the right approach to dealing with her problems (find something to punch). Amber and Amazi-Girl have a rare moment of agreement when they decide that they will take Joyce on as a trainee of sorts to keep her from getting in over her head or worse.
I mean, it’s not the WORST idea that has appeared in the comic. Close, though. As a general rule, when deeply religious people engage in violence it doesn’t work out all that well for people minding their own business.
People keep saying pre-dumped but I feel like Joyce was just… Dumped. When you’re someone who presents like Jacob (like, very serious and committed and all that), all that stuff up to and including the kiss is relationship, emotionally at least.
I guess this is an exercise in sympathy. I can easily feel bad for myself when I’m sad and it’s my own fault/what I deserve, but looking from the outside at Joyce I’m just thinking “You’ll get through this, and be better for it”
I’m sorry for Joyce. I’m not saying she didn’t do anything wrong here; but I’m sorry for her.
Because I believe, with all my heart, that Joyce is fundamentally a good person. Better than I am. She truly cares about her friends and will have their back in a way that I —someone non-confrontational to the point of cowardice, and in a position in society where I can get away with that— cannot possibly claim that I would do. Her core is full of love.
But this wonderful, beautiful core has, sadly, been poisoned in many ways. Mostly her religious upbringing; and also by even the rather limited amount of media she’s been allowed to absorb. Most of which, it seems, includes rom-coms with directly harmful tropes that are played off as harmless or even desirable. I’m sure we don’t need to go through all of them, except the one that is pertinent to this story:
Pretending to be someone’s romantic interest means you’ll end up becoming their romantic interest in the end.
Yeah, she’s seen that trope for sure. And she absorbed it during a time of life when she was not questioning things; the way she absorbed so many other bad tropes about relationships.
And then she got to pay for it.
And I’m sorry for her.
And I’m glad for her.
Because if there’s anything I know about Joyce, is that whenever her tropes crashes about the solid concrete wall of reality; it’s that in the long run, it makes her a better person. She starts -thinking- about things. She starts questioning herself. She is capable she did something wrong; and I don’t mean as in “I must have done that trope in the wrong manner”; but instead in the “this thing I’m doing is not the nice thing I thought it was”.
I’ve argued before that the main story, the core story, the red thread about “Dumbing of Age” is one about Joyce’s redemption. While many of the characters has something about Willis in them; Joyce’s story is the closest to him. He put so much of his own past in her, and quite often the storylines are taken directly from his own life.
Joyce was, until she started university, on a path of wrongness. But now she is starting, piece by piece, bit by bit, to see these wrongs for what they really are. And as she discovers them, her core rejects them for a better way. She doesn’t just simply apologize (or even worse, non-pologize); she changes her ways to make up for the wrongs she did.
Redemption is a story, Rachel said. And it’s true that the sort of redemption usually found is indeed a story, a fairy-tale. A brief “eureka” moment followed by a few gestures of appearing to do right and then everything is solved forever (99% of the Hollywood movies about racism, anyone?).
That’s not Joyce’s story. She’ll hit her wrongs over and over, painfully facing them in turn; every time being forced to accept she’s not automatically the heroine in her own story. And every time she’s faced it, her core has made her take a turn for the better.
Real redemption is a journey. A long, and often painful journey. But if you’re strong enough, it’ll make you a vastly better person through the other side.
Like I was hoping and wanting this to blow up in Joyce’s face this whole time and think this will be good for her and her understanding of boundaries in the long run, but of course it hurts now. The arc’s set up for people to buy into the romcom-ness – Raidah as the Mean False Lead, Joyce as the Happy Nice One Who Connects In A Way Jacob Never Has Before – while still periodically reminding you this is a really bad idea. (And Jacob being culpable in the blowup fits into this too – it generally DOESN’T say good things about a dude that he breaks up with the serious girlfriend because he’s suddenly caught up in the spontaneous romance of this other woman!)
Yeah, frustrating as this whole arc was to read (and even more to argue about), there were a lot of things I really liked about it. The biggest being Raidah as the genuinely bad person who is still in the right in this situation. It not working out in the classic rom-com way despite that. We’re not supposed to root for Joyce despite her being the protagonist and the better person in general, because she’s wrong here. But she’s not only wrong because Raidah really is right for Jacob, she’s still wrong despite her being bad.
I only sorrow slightly for my beloved OTP: Jacob/Pizza. Jacob has proven himself unworthy of the pizza.
Man, there is a semi-local pizza place near me that makes the most magnifiscent pizza—
Galasso: More magnifiscent than Galasso’s pizza?!?! Impossible! You and your tastebuds shall be subdued into full submission of Galasso’s empire!
–Where was I? Oh yeah, that awesome pizza place. Like, people will stand in line outside kind of good place on weekends. On one hand, I really wish I’d be able to go there more often. On the other hand, it’s probably just as well that it’s something I only rarely get to eat; so as to not spoil the specialness of it.
Also, appreciate that everyone understood what I was saying despite a rather high ratio of wrong words and grammatical errors. I really need an editor when I’m about to make those kind of posts.
…’cause she’d already given up on that once she realized Jacob was looking for a committed relationship – Sarah explicitly stated to Joyce that she only wanted to hook up with him a time or two.
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🎉🏆🎊🏆🎉 ~PHWEE~ 🎉🏆🎊🏆🎉
So Joyce and Sarah now have to fight an evil clown-I mean Radiah.
Sorry that was for another thread.
No, you were right the first time.
(Laughs) Thank you, I needed that. 😊
What did I just watch????
“Jacob dumped Raidah.”
“That’s good!”
“But he also pre-dumped me.”
“That’s bad.”
“But at least I got pizza out of the deal.”
“That’s good!”
“The pizza contained potassium benzoate”
“…”
“That’s bad.”
“Can I go now?”
I forget which Harry Potter movie it was but that scene when Ron is in a conversation with Dumbledore:
…”but that’s bad, right?”
–“No! It’s good! We didn’t know that before.”
That shtick predates Potter – the old TV show “F Troop” did it in 1966.
I’m certain its older than that… it sounds like a vaudeville pr burlesque routime.
The bit quoted above is from the Simpsons, you danged millenials
It’s definitely a classic. I first saw it on Hee Haw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fMnQAvz0ek
Except they *didn’t* get pizza! They left before eating or even ordering anything! (and that’s a CRIME in my book)
I assumed they did offscreen
I mean, we at least know they INTENDED to order plain-ass cheese
that’s better than a plain with the ass-cheese on the side
Is it plain ass-cheese?
That stuff is about $1200 a kilo /0.0\
Didn’t they? I know we cut away to the Danny/Drew/Carla/Malaya stuff, but I just assumed lunch took place during that time.
Dagnabbit, Muskie, you’re right! In my head, we saw them leave right after Jacob’s brother came back from the restroom, but NOPE. Jump cut to Danny. Next time we see Joyce & Jacob, they’re walking into the building in mid-conversation.
So Joyce and Sarah now have to fight an evil clown-I mean Radiah.
Ethan: “that transformer is evil!”
Amber: “you said that about the new model.”
Ethan: “I just wanted attention.”
Great composition: We can’t see Joyce’s face and I wonder if she looks as sad as I think she might.
I’m assuming we’re seeing her from Sarah’s point of view, right? So we’re getting as much information about the day as Sarah is.
Except Sarah can hear Joyce’s tone of voice. I agree with ValdVin; Joyce is not talking in her usual happy voice.
I can hear Joyce’s voice too.
It’s flat. Toneless. Tired. Even slightly muffled by the pillow the lack of spirit comes through. The only shift in tone is when she asks “It’s what you wanted, right?”, when her cadence and pitch raise just a hair, only to drop back down to dead flat at “No. We’re not.”
I’ma go listen to something else now.
Joyce has been crying into her pillow and is now hiding her face so that Sarah can’t see it. She currently needs to get it out of her system.
Joyce has been staring into her pillow. She did not have enough to cry over and could not have dealt with getting more anyway.
She wasn’t crying immediately after (when Drew made his snark), I’d figure it’s more of the same, just into a pillow bc “AAGH I FUDGED IT UP”
I’m like 98% sure she still cried, or will cry, if she hasn’t. As an ex broke up with me one time I didn’t cry in front of him even though I was devastated – I also was pretty much in shock (because I knew he had a hard time handling people crying, and I liked him too much to do that), but as soon as he left I broke down.
(Though I’m probably shoving my own feelings of that situation into Joyce’s now)
Feel the need to add: yeah, they weren’t together, doesn’t mean she can’t cry over the loss of a potential relationship/love
Yeah, I think you’ve got it.
The body language speaks volumes, though.
…..Haaaaappy Birthday Sarah!!! 😬
*sad party horn toot*
Poor Joyce. I want to wrap her in a blanket and hold her and tell her that everything’s gonna be okay. Is that weird?
Nah, it’s nice.
i wanna wrap everyone involved in a blanket and reassure them each. i guess separate blankets, especially given circumstances
Unwanted consequences for everyone! *Confetti drops*
YOU get character growth! And YOU get character growth! EVERYONE GETS CHARACTER GROWTH!
This consequence Katamari ball is just beginning to roll!
Nanaaaaa nanana nana naana, Katamari Damacy!
Now I’m imagining playing Katamari except the only things to pick up are comic strips.
How about you can only pick up ‘mistakes’
You can pick up more vaguely defined mistakes as you collect mistakes and grow in cynicism, becoming emotionally heavy.
Don’t get caught in the web of lies!
Yet?
Poor Joyce, first time heat break is hard to deal with.
I assume “heat break” is when you stop being horny.
Autocorrect is a bongo, it happens.
“we did kiss tho” WHAT?!
this.
Happy happy birthday,
from all of us to you!
Jacob’s not with Raidah
But Joyce isn’t, too!
Hey!
It’ll be okay, Joyce. Just go get blitzed on Mountain Dew at the party and make out with Dorothy. You’ll feel better, I guarantee.
That sounds like something I’d do. ^^
Me too.
Sarah: “So he’s available now, right?”
Joyce: “Yes, and he also knows you’re interested. Happy birthday.”
Sarah: “….”
“After a time, you may find that ‘having’ is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as ‘wanting.’ It is not logical, but it is often true.”
**slow clap for awesome reference**
I feel bad that I don’t feel bad that Joyce feels bad, and I’m not sure if that’s still sympathy or not. I’m leaning toward not.
On the other hand, happy birthday, Sarah! It can only look up from here! (I hope.)
Don’t feel bad about not feeling bad. Her feeling bad is not only deserved but it’s also what we call “character growth.” This is a good thing.
The most mature person in this comic right now is probably Jacob. A question that remains is how mature Raidah is. And i’m leaning towards ‘not.’
Harrison?
Jamie.
Harsh!
Jacob? Mature? If being an ass is mature then yea, I guess.
Jacob is a cheating, lying “kissing a girl before telling her she isn’t fit for his qualifications.
Mature my left buttcheek
… The dude who kissed Joyce, *without asking* to.. I’m not sure why. Prove a point?
Only to pre-dump Joyce immediately afterwards?
Jacob just lied to his brother, cheated on his girlfriend, kissed another girl and then told said girl she’s not good enough, I don’t know what you think mature means, but that isn’t it. Mature, in this sense, means you are mentally and emotionally developed and Jacob is none of the above.
I think Jacob is mature because he *didn’t* go with Joyce while with Raidah even though he clearly could. He realized that it was cheating, and that is a bad way to start a relationship (Joyce will always wonder if he’ll cheat again) and ended it at the start.
I interpret his kissing Joyce as a goodbye/it would’ve been nice gesture, as well as a final check to see if he really does want something different that what he thought, which is why he said he’d have to revise his list of “things he’s looking for in a relationship.”
The way the situation started was him trying to help ease a friend out of an awkward situation even though she started it. What happened though, was him learning that his list of “things i want out of a relationship” potentially needed revising, and it made him think. And the multiple lies involved doomed any relationship with her, which he also realized.
Lastly, it cost him his relationship with Raidah since he knew he broke her trust by cheating, and he didn’t try to pretend it didn’t happen. What’s more, he could have, and if this comic was more like a sitcom (or real life), he probably would have.
So that’s what i think Jacob’s mental process are here and why i think he’s acting maturely here. If i’ve missed something or misinterpreted something, please let me know!
Well, you skipped over the whole “for his brother’s approval” part – both in terms of why he was with Raidah in the first place and why he played along with the whole deception.
You’re missing that Joyce tried to come clean and he said no, because his brother’s approval is the end all be all to him. Joyce realized what she did and tried to fix it to the best of her abilities and he refused because he can’t stand to disappoint his brother. He kissed her and then told her why she’s not good enough and blamed her for his choice to lie. Him breaking up with Raidah was the only good move he made here. A mature response would have been to come clean from the get go and confront Joyce about what happened and if the lie was going to be a deal breaker then walk away. What he did instead was tell her not to tell the truth and nope out of his life because he wanted to keep her in it, then later kissed her and told her she wasn’t good enough and that this was a deal breaker, all while implying she bares the blame for him lying to his brother because he likes her. Everything he did was because he has a childlike pathological need to please his brother, none of it was mature because of why he did it and how he went about it.
Happy birthday indeed, Sarah.
Now’s your chance, Sarah!
I’m just going to assume this whole situation leads to Jacob becoming a monk and vowing celibacy.
If he does that, legions of women in DoA will be very sad.
On the flip side, he’d get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat right off the bat…
And one day, a visitor comes to tell him he is needed for One Last Mission.
And Stunning Fist, because nobody takes Improved Grapple.
What about the Legions of men?
I wonder some about how Sarah’s going to feel about this.
Hmm, you know, if Sarah tries to talk to Jacob, maybe trying to talk him into giving Joyce a chance, wonder if it’d come up how Jacob was oblivious that Joyce was trying to set him up before with Sarah, and that’s going to be its own can of worms.
Eh, he knows, and asked Joyce why they might be a good fit,what was Sarah like personality wise. Joyce realized her only answer besides “she’s kind of an abrasive loner” was “Um, you’re both black I guess?” which she tried to put a less horrible spin on. Jacob said “you white kids all have the same script”. Luckily for Joyce they actually got to know and like each other more from there.
Sarah no, don’t go asking after him just yet. Look after your little sister first.
She’s likely not going to. She stopped pursuing him herself because she realised Jacob was more a committed relationship type while she just wanted a few one night stands at most.
I get what you mean, but I must admit I got a chuckle out of reading “a few one night stands”.
Or would “a few-nights-stand” be a better pluralization?
If we’re actually looking for a term instead of admitting to a simple chuckle, We would vote for “A few* casual hook-ups.”
And since Our vote is infinite (gotta love being emperor of the internet and all), that’s what it’s going to be, by imperial decree. Huzzah!
*Note, in this particular context, we do not adhere to the XKCD standard of what “a few means” (two to five, by the way). Sarah might need anything from two to two hundred casual hook-ups to get her full satisfaction from Jacob.
I may be misremembering that chunk of storyline, but I was under the impression Sarah didn’t so much “stop pursuing Jacob” as it was her get the impression that her personality was not compatible with his / that she’d have to pretend to be something she wasn’t. I seem to remember her temporarily acting very falsely perky and cheery.
I think that train left the station a long time ago. She would never go after him at this point.
Sometimes, when you stop pursuing something, it wanders right into your path.
I’m bummed about this outcome. Not so much because I could see that ship being perfect or any such thing. I just wanted to see Joyce’s whitebread family dealing with the Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner scenes.
“I can’t wait to tell the neighbors our daughter’s not racist!” (or words to the effect).
Oh no, (generic white) you’re only allowed to be friends with “them” (in a “it’s nice that you’re making an effort to get them up to a higher level” kind of way). Getting in a romantic relationship that assumes you truly see them as equal is taking it too far.
Jacob would -not- be accepted by Carol as Joyce’s boyfriend. Not in a million years.
Might finally be the push her dad would need to leave her mum, when he sees how happy they are together, and how much he respects her, and sees her as an equal and a partner rather than a subordinate who must agree with and give in to him in all things.
He might realize how much Joyce lucked out, and how Jacob was bringing out the very best in her– not just her compassion, which was always there, but also her sharp, slightly snarky sense of humour.
Joyce lucked into the perfect guy for her, and is good for him, too– and Carol is dead-set against their relationship because of his skin colour?!
Shame we probably won’t ever get to see that scene now, because while this would definitely be the wrong foot to start out on, they really would be good together. And maybe some day they’ll get a second chance.
I bet her dad would sincerely love Jacob.
Kind of a stretch to assume Joyce’s mom is a racist, isn’t it? Unless I’m forgetting something. Horrid religious fundamentalism and racism sometimes don’t, though often do, go hand in hand.
No one really seems happy about this outcome but I think Sarah sees an opportunity here.
Just because the shoe hasn’t dropped on her yet. It depends on The Willis whether she heads out before it does.
Well, glad that’s sorted out
Your eternal optimism is probably what fuels Willis. He probably plans his plots based on how to best get up your hopes only to crush them again.
A Pyrrhic victory for Sarah.
My html is weak…
Beware what you wish for. Have a good day.
PUT ON A HAPPY FACE
Good! I can feel Raidah’s anger. She is defenseless. Take your Jacob! Strike her down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete.
I mean, Joyce has used Sarah’s Other Jacob as a lightsaber before…
Exactly so!
Your journey to the Amazi-side will be complete!
FTFY
You gonna tell her you got drunk on babies, lied about being his girlfriend, and kissed him?
Or the worse truth, that he’did prefer a girl ALMOST like you more?
Happy birthday? : (
he kissed her in quite a manipulative way thou
Correctio, he kisssed her. She certainly was complicit but she didn’t initiate, so you can’t really lay that particular clusterfuck on her.
The rest tracks though.
She was heart-feltedly arguing the position that he didn’t need to break up with Raidah three seconds before being kissed.
Inner Evil Joyce may indeed be manipulative, but Surface Joyce is still pretty simple and tries to do the right thing. Joyce is responsible for owning up to both, she’s working on it.
Joyce, don’t Blame Sarah.
This has been all you, for a while.
You ignored advice and judgment of joe and Dorothy.
“Still waiting on that Personal Lubricant Recept quest I gave you!” – Dorothy
Dorothy’s not wrong, Joyce probably would be more chilled out and relaxed if she rubbed a few out.
Yeah…. I’m sure “Joyce rubs out a few” will be a serene story about finding your personal calm, not a hysteric emotional roller coaster of a tangled lust/guilt complex coupled with an ongoing personal religious crisis.
I’m not sure she’s blaming anybody. I think she’s just… hurting.
I’m not getting “blaming Sarah” vibes out of this. I think this is just her saying what happened, acknowledging that Sarah didn’t like Raidah and Jacob together, and hurting because she (Joyce) caused all of this to happen in a way that hurt everyone involved.
No, Joyce, it isn’t a ‘happy birthday’ anymore because I really don’t think that Sarah would have wanted you to be hurt in the name of her revenge.
I took Joyce’s statement as having a note of reproachful sarcasm.
It’s always interesting to see what comic other people are reading.
I do so enjoy people implying that I am delusional because I have a different opinion.
Not what I intended to imply. Just very different than the way I read it.
This is really a weird response.
Are you seriously upset because someone else had a slightly different interpretation of a comic strip Clif?
No, I find it interesting.
Me too!
Sarah. You have a baseball bat. Don’t be afraid to use it.
…on…? No one in this situation has done anything baseball-bat-deserving.
Does she really NEED an excuse to use that thing on Raidah? I think to Sarah’s been looking for the opportunity to use it on her but has just been holding herself back for the sake of not losing it.
But its her birthday today, GO NUTS!
I agree with His Majesty. Besides, all Raidah’s done is be rude. It’s not like she roofied Joyce at a party.
Hi, let’s not downplay the effects sustained verbal abuse can have. Raidah’s been singling out and attacking Sarah for a year now, and I can personally attest just how damaging an extended harrassment campaign can be.
Hi, that’s not really an excuse to escalate to physical violence with potentially-fatal results okay thanks. Besides the fact that Raidah’s dad owns a law firm and, as she herself pointed out and Sarah agreed the last time the two managed to hold a conversation (when Sarah was apologizing for punching Raidah in the face at the clothing store), him suing Sarah for battery would throw a wrench in her scholarship and wreck her chances of becoming a lawyer…let alone assault with a deadly weapon.
As it stands now Sarah shouldn’t go after her with a bat or do anything more to Raidah. I do feel like she deserved the punch to the face and other than it being a dumb move I don’t really object to it.
But as far as recent history goes Raidah hasn’t done anything wrong don’t blame her for Joyce’s poor decision.
I mean I’m pretty sure she plans to do things to Joyce but they don’t know it yet. And it would have to be pretty bad for me to consider a baseball bat a just if stupid solution.
Yeah. The punch was also a heat of the moment thing after a year of abuse and Raidah trying to isolate Sarah from her new friends. Not a good or smart move, but an understandable reaction.
Baseball bat would be premeditated, WAY more dangerous, and way less defensible. If you need to get the dangerous rapist who drugged your friend down for the count and apparently had it handy? Then it’s still not a good idea legally but hey, one hit in the moment is probably defensible, especially since if Ryan had gone to the police after Sarah it would likely have been in enough time that they could prove Joyce was roofied, who he would probably also be accusing. (Which is, I am certain, why Ryan did not go to the police.)
Raidah literally did nothing today. Joyce didn’t even hear the breakup remarks, which still would not merit a brutal assault. Raidah is in no way, shape or form responsible for either Joyce’s or Jacob’s terrible decisions here.
Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that Sarah should go after Raidah. I see how it reads now, and while Raidah fucking off into orbit and never coming back would be sweet, Sarah should not send her there herself.
I’m sorry if my previous comment sounded callous towards you, but my job kind of requires me to not get physical just because a customer gets verbally abusive. Granted, once they lay hands on anyone else, that rule flies out the window.
Yeah, I’m sure that’ll hold over real well in a court of law. “Yes, your honor, I did attack the plaintiff with a baseball bat, and yes, she has been left with broken bones/permanent scars/in a vegetative state as a result of my attack…but in my defense, she had been verbally harassing me for some time (though we had not actually interacted for weeks at the time of my attack) and it was my birthday.” See how that works out.
Sarah feels protective of Joyce. Joyce has been hurt. No one has actually deserved Sarah’s baseball bat to the head. I encourage it anyway.
See my reply to Zero immediately above. (Also, the only time Sarah has actually used the baseball bat is against Ryan – it could very easily be argued that he did actually deserve being hit in the head with the bat in that situation. Since, you know, he was trying to rape Joyce).
It was also a moment where Joyce was unarmed (since her glass was broken) and basically defenseless (since she was drugged), and Sarah certainly heard at least a little of his threatening before she hit him. (I don’t think much, I think Sarah got there as fast as she could and hit him the moment she got there and the party was crowded, but he was talking the panel before so she heard enough.) Joyce was in imminent danger. Sarah removed the threat. The first hit was necessary*; the second was… maybe less so but it was certainly cathartic so I still give Sarah the justified here running on comic logic.
* Joyce broke a fucking glass in his face and he just got angrier, there was no nonviolent way to get him out of the picture and getting him down fast was paramount.
Sure, but this is fiction. Nothing wrong with wishing some things on fiction that you wouldn’t on a real person.
That said, in this comic? Yeah, no, Sarah’d be going to jail and Raidah’s dad would be suing her into the dirt. Don’t do it, Sarah.
Now if this were Shortpacked, where things like realistic consequences were much rarer…
How about using it on a baseball? Perhaps participating in organised sport would be good for Sarah, health-wise and socially.
Hey, for all we know, she already is. Maybe that strict scholarship’s a baseball one. 😛
Yeah, it’s not a good idea to start dating a person who just broke up with someone they had been dating for a while. You have to give them time to dissociate from the couple they had been and reestablish themselves as a single person. Otherwise, you get echoes of the old couplehood messing things up. If Jacob and Joyce had started dating now, it wouldn’t work out.
I’ve learned that the hard way, so as sucky as everything is right now, this is probably for the best on multiple levels. Joyce learns a lesson about real life, Jacob (hopefully) learns that his checklist isn’t healthy or realistic, a relationship that could only have ended badly because of Jacob’s immediate switch from Raidah to Joyce without time to heal in between is dodged, and maybe, just maybe, things will be able to turn out better for them through all these things happening.
It’s a good idea, but it’s not a hard and fast rule. I’ve had good long term relationships that started right after I or the other party broke up.
It adds some problems, but they’re not insurmountable.
oh poor joyce. she did a shitty thing and it didn’t magically work out for her and now she’s sulking. boo hoo
This is best comment I’ve seen this story arc
How do I upvote your comment?
How do I upvote your avatar? <3
The thing is, the universe where Joyce says “No, no I am not” a Harrison says “Oh, well good day then” and walks off and Jacob and Raidah do brunch and she networks and their relationship circles the drain a while longer with Jacob not putting into words how he feels disattisfied… Isn’t the better universe, IMO.
Joyce fibbed a single syllable. But for her involvement, things would have stayed stagnant trending towards resentment. For good and evil, she didn’t plan it and “credit” for the outcome is an illusion. She could fairly be wondering “I just wanted to see a baby, why does it hurt so much?” The approach of “NO ONE MUST HARBOR EVEN ONE DROP OF IMPERFECTION, LEST THEY REAP THEIR WELL DESERVED SUFFERING” approach seems a little heavy handed.
Oh come on, I don’t disagree with the sentiment here, but “Joyce fibbed a single syllable.” does hold up. Syllable are definitely not a relevant unit for measuring the severity of a lie ^^
*doesn’t hold up
*syllables
Get off your damned high horse.
What Joyce actually did: Say “yes” in a moment of weakness then immediately tried to run away, then was unexpectedly backed up on her answer by the person she thought would immediately call her out on it.
Was what Joyce did bad? Yes, of course.
Was Jacob going along with it a far worse thing? Most certainly.
Once again. I still say this is a decent way for this little plotline to go. Lessons (hard lessons sure, but still lessons) have been learned. And Joyce shall be fine….I’m sure….
Sarah really owes Joyce something good for her birthday. I don’t know what’s equal to ruining the relationship of a girl you dislike but it has to be pretty substantial. Like more than just a giftcard.
This conversation can only end well
I really hope this isn’t Joyce putting all of this on Sarah…once Joyce learned the scheme she took full responsibility for her actions. And things only soured because she lied to Harrison, Jacob more or less said minus that ONE thing they could’ve been together.
I’m interpreting it as Joyce beating herself up over this and really, really not wanting to let Sarah know just what actually happened in full.
I also hope Joyce apologizes for blaming Sarah when she made her own decisions and Sarah mostly gave her the idea to pursue him and didn’t even make suggestions of how.
Although honestly, I think Jacob might have been unintentionally lying when he said it proberally would have worked out if she was honest from the beginning.
Yeah, there’s no way. He’s too dependent on his checklist because of his brother worship…
How can Sarah not hear the tears in Joyce’s voice?
Proposal one: She isn’t crying. We literally do not know at this time and you’ve just decided that’s what’s going on.
Proposal two: Sarah is not the most socialized person, and Joyce is deliberately hiding her face.
Which is to say, she might not make the connection between the strain in Joyce’s voice and crying, or if she does, she respects her boundaries/can’t be bothered with it if it’s deliberately being hidden from her.
I’ve been waiting for this. Let’s see how it plays out.
Probably: “So, you’ve worked out now that lies are a bad thing and ‘true love’ doesn’t make them right?” Then tears and sister-hugs.
Huh. So it turns out spite and self-sacrifice aren’t two great tastes that taste great together. Reese’s Spite-Butter Cups lied to me.
I hate birthday. You’re celebrating about something you don’t have controll and is the sign of you get older. There is nothing positive in birthday. And if something bad happens in that day you feel extra bad because it’s you birthday and the myth say that everything that day is suppose to be great.
A birthday is a celebration of the fact that you have defied your inevitable death for anouther year!
That’s unfortunately.
And now Sarah’s gonna feel bad.
Or nor and she’ll give it a shot but acknowledge that Joyce is probably something more than a roommate. Not a friend, of course not, baka-san.
…I don’t get it, why is Joyce tagged in this comic? I don’t see her cheery face at all. Just Sarah and some maudlin, brown-haired girl who says seemingly happy things that don’t make anyone happy.
And your present is CONSEQUENCES! Yay!
This came out on my birthday!
Happy birthday.
Happy birthday. is no longer anymore.
Crap, apparently >< erases stuff, let's try that again.
Happy birthday. (person you dislike) is no longer (doing something they wanted) anymore.
In that case I wish you an especially good day.
Jacob wants someone like Joyce, but not so willing to bend morals based on impulse and hormones—so I wonder when he’ll run into Lucie…
JOYCE: “Amber…? I want to know how to do good. To really do good.”
AMAZI-GIRL: “You don’t know what you’re asking of me.”
JOYCE: “Then teach me.”
Is this a refence to something I don’t know?
reference*
Headcanon mostly.
I’ve long thought that Joyce is going to become so disillusioned that she starts thinking that maybe Amazi-Girl has the right approach to dealing with her problems (find something to punch). Amber and Amazi-Girl have a rare moment of agreement when they decide that they will take Joyce on as a trainee of sorts to keep her from getting in over her head or worse.
I mean, it’s not the WORST idea that has appeared in the comic. Close, though. As a general rule, when deeply religious people engage in violence it doesn’t work out all that well for people minding their own business.
**all the sympathy for Joyce**
Been there, girl. Been there.
People keep saying pre-dumped but I feel like Joyce was just… Dumped. When you’re someone who presents like Jacob (like, very serious and committed and all that), all that stuff up to and including the kiss is relationship, emotionally at least.
I guess this is an exercise in sympathy. I can easily feel bad for myself when I’m sad and it’s my own fault/what I deserve, but looking from the outside at Joyce I’m just thinking “You’ll get through this, and be better for it”
I’m sorry for Joyce. I’m not saying she didn’t do anything wrong here; but I’m sorry for her.
Because I believe, with all my heart, that Joyce is fundamentally a good person. Better than I am. She truly cares about her friends and will have their back in a way that I —someone non-confrontational to the point of cowardice, and in a position in society where I can get away with that— cannot possibly claim that I would do. Her core is full of love.
But this wonderful, beautiful core has, sadly, been poisoned in many ways. Mostly her religious upbringing; and also by even the rather limited amount of media she’s been allowed to absorb. Most of which, it seems, includes rom-coms with directly harmful tropes that are played off as harmless or even desirable. I’m sure we don’t need to go through all of them, except the one that is pertinent to this story:
Pretending to be someone’s romantic interest means you’ll end up becoming their romantic interest in the end.
Yeah, she’s seen that trope for sure. And she absorbed it during a time of life when she was not questioning things; the way she absorbed so many other bad tropes about relationships.
And then she got to pay for it.
And I’m sorry for her.
And I’m glad for her.
Because if there’s anything I know about Joyce, is that whenever her tropes crashes about the solid concrete wall of reality; it’s that in the long run, it makes her a better person. She starts -thinking- about things. She starts questioning herself. She is capable she did something wrong; and I don’t mean as in “I must have done that trope in the wrong manner”; but instead in the “this thing I’m doing is not the nice thing I thought it was”.
I’ve argued before that the main story, the core story, the red thread about “Dumbing of Age” is one about Joyce’s redemption. While many of the characters has something about Willis in them; Joyce’s story is the closest to him. He put so much of his own past in her, and quite often the storylines are taken directly from his own life.
Joyce was, until she started university, on a path of wrongness. But now she is starting, piece by piece, bit by bit, to see these wrongs for what they really are. And as she discovers them, her core rejects them for a better way. She doesn’t just simply apologize (or even worse, non-pologize); she changes her ways to make up for the wrongs she did.
Redemption is a story, Rachel said. And it’s true that the sort of redemption usually found is indeed a story, a fairy-tale. A brief “eureka” moment followed by a few gestures of appearing to do right and then everything is solved forever (99% of the Hollywood movies about racism, anyone?).
That’s not Joyce’s story. She’ll hit her wrongs over and over, painfully facing them in turn; every time being forced to accept she’s not automatically the heroine in her own story. And every time she’s faced it, her core has made her take a turn for the better.
Real redemption is a journey. A long, and often painful journey. But if you’re strong enough, it’ll make you a vastly better person through the other side.
And I believe Joyce is strong enough.
Very well said, I agree wholeheartedly.
*insert applause gif here*
Yes. Yes this exactly thank you.
Like I was hoping and wanting this to blow up in Joyce’s face this whole time and think this will be good for her and her understanding of boundaries in the long run, but of course it hurts now. The arc’s set up for people to buy into the romcom-ness – Raidah as the Mean False Lead, Joyce as the Happy Nice One Who Connects In A Way Jacob Never Has Before – while still periodically reminding you this is a really bad idea. (And Jacob being culpable in the blowup fits into this too – it generally DOESN’T say good things about a dude that he breaks up with the serious girlfriend because he’s suddenly caught up in the spontaneous romance of this other woman!)
Yeah, frustrating as this whole arc was to read (and even more to argue about), there were a lot of things I really liked about it. The biggest being Raidah as the genuinely bad person who is still in the right in this situation. It not working out in the classic rom-com way despite that. We’re not supposed to root for Joyce despite her being the protagonist and the better person in general, because she’s wrong here. But she’s not only wrong because Raidah really is right for Jacob, she’s still wrong despite her being bad.
I only sorrow slightly for my beloved OTP: Jacob/Pizza. Jacob has proven himself unworthy of the pizza.
To be fair, pizza is very hard to measure up to.
Man, there is a semi-local pizza place near me that makes the most magnifiscent pizza—
Galasso: More magnifiscent than Galasso’s pizza?!?! Impossible! You and your tastebuds shall be subdued into full submission of Galasso’s empire!
–Where was I? Oh yeah, that awesome pizza place. Like, people will stand in line outside kind of good place on weekends. On one hand, I really wish I’d be able to go there more often. On the other hand, it’s probably just as well that it’s something I only rarely get to eat; so as to not spoil the specialness of it.
Also, appreciate that everyone understood what I was saying despite a rather high ratio of wrong words and grammatical errors. I really need an editor when I’m about to make those kind of posts.
Surprised and impressed Sarah hasn’t added “so… you mind if I try to hit that?”
…’cause she’d already given up on that once she realized Jacob was looking for a committed relationship – Sarah explicitly stated to Joyce that she only wanted to hook up with him a time or two.
Joyce: He’s a good kisser, though.
Sarah: Wait what?
Two steps forward, one step back?
(Raidah=unhappy, Jacob=available, Joycob/Jayce=nope)