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Atheism isn’t a inherently a phase, Becky.
Joyce, Becky kinda has a point about the parents.
Atheism isn’t necessarily a phase, but ‘bitter at everything’ should be.
It’s Becky’s responding after she calls their parents BSing assholes that makes me think that’s what she means.
While I would agree that “bitter about everything” isn’t generally a healthy or productive mindset, I’d like to mention at least two great minds that thrived in pessimism: Emil Cioran and David Wojnarowicz.
I’d leave Cioraǹ (and his particular beliefs) out of that personally
I brought it up yesterday but a lot of formerly religious atheists have a bitter phase, though I don’t like calling it a phase because it’s a place a person will likely visit over and over as they reflect on how religion affected their lives
A lot of us are antitheists for a reason, ya know. Heck, even some believers recognize the damage religion does.
There’s a reason why my UU church had a “Recovering Christians” therapy group.
Because they went wild once they got out of the religion, abandoned their previous prudishness, and went nudist?
….
*flees for dear punning life*
*doesn’t see the pun*
*gets mauled by haters who do*
Recovering versus “re-covering”, as in putting clothes on nudists.
Yes, exactly this.
I am toning it down slowly, but i still get angry and bitter at times because of all the bullshit i used to to believe. Recovering from religion takes time. But also, the anger is useful so we can take care that other people don’t get brainwashed (not all religious people are brainwashed, but some are, and that is toxic).
True, but this bitter at everything “phase” was long, like, two days of in-comic time, so it’s more “a mood”, I think.
Definitely not long enough to warrant a “grow out of it”.
A lot of what makes Carol Brown who she turned out to be comes from her dedication to not growing out of her emotional immaturity, and the one-woman war against reality, resulting in alienating every single child she had, that naturally followed. Becky obviously doesn’t want to see that happen to Joyce, whom is otherwise already on the path to becoming a better person *and* at better Christian than the scrubs they grew up with….Comes down to where you direct your energy.
I agree with this… but everyone is allowed a bit of bitterness occassionally when life is shitty enough. It was for a quite short time now, doesn’t mean she will be stuck this way (hopefully).
I’m pretty sure Joyce’ll come out of the mindset that nothing matters, everything is garbage, and she personally is terrible by the end of this book. So that’s kind of a phase.
Joyce not believing may very well not be though and I think that’s the core of what Becky’s objecting to.
Dina’s an atheist and Becky is fine with that.
Dina’s not specifically calling out her community while she’s trying to hold onto one of their values because she feels lost, and Dina was already an atheist when they met, unlike Joyce.
My theory is that she’s just upset because Joyce responded to asking for support with nihilism. I think that Becky would *accept* Joyce no matter what; but that doesn’t preclude the possibility that Joyce is being a jerk regardless.
It also doesn’t preclude Becky acting like a jerk.
Oh yeah trauma one-upmanship is also pretty crap; honestly they’re being mutually unhelpful
Especially when you consider Joyce first started being at odds with her parents exactly because of Becky.
I thought she was first at odds because of Dorothy at freshman family weekend?
Have you forgotten all of the ‘I WILL SAVE YOU’ moments, early on?
Dina has repeatedly attacked the community Becky was raised in.
What she didn’t do is claim that Becky’s desire to hold onto something she finds worthwhile is wrong.
But she wasn’t also personally in the middle of breaking away from that herself. This is Joyce’s trauma too.
Joyce here is speaking as much about herself as anything. Should she tell Becky that she has to stay a virgin until marriage, if she doesn’t believe that anymore herself? Or is at least torn up and doubting everything?
She could say she’s not in a good place to talk about that, because of her own current state.
Or she could be quiet and let Becky talk it out for herself.
Or she could ask Becky to listen to her talk about her problems, instead.
Telling Becky she’s brainwashed because she doesn’t have an all-or-nothing attitude toward her faith, however, is not acceptable.
Good thing Joyce never said that then.
The nihilist phase is part of every troubled teenage life. It just makes you look like a stupid old man that complains about things being too colorful. True growth involves learning to accept the good things in life and being able to move on after tragic events.
No, no it is not part of every troubled teenager’s life. And Joyce already knows there are good things in life. Right now she doesn’t feel like she is one of them, but she knows that life absent Christianity does not mean everything is inherently bad.
Becky also has a point considering Joyce’s dad is at least not as bad as her mom. He isn’t a “Bee-essin’ B-hole” as far as Becky is concerned, yes?
I mean, while he definitely has good intentions, he DID lie to Joyce her entire life and she’s only started understanding that. They’re not mutually exclusive.
Guys, what if Becky’s mom was as bad as her dad but didn’t live long enough for Becky to see that?
THAT took like an hour to type, how many patreons do i need to buy for a mobile friendly doa website?
You either die a hero…
Are the lies and excuse to burn bridges and reject his worth as part of her past? Joyce going the Kylo Ren way would be dangerous.
Way to dismiss people who cut their dads off and reject their worth. Good job. Very helpful.
I am not dismissing. If you can fix a relationship do it, if you cant then dont. You dont have to abandon everyone just ebcause of the rotten apples in your life.
Bullshit. You just referred to it as ‘going the Kylo Ren way’. And no, just because a relationship can hypothetically be fixed doesn’t mean it’s worthwhile. Joyce didn’t even say anything about abandoning anybody, she said he was a lying asshole, which he was until like a month ago.
He didn’t lie to her, he taught her his beliefs, just like parents do.
And just because you don’t belive the same it doesn’t mean he was bullshiting or lying to her
To add to that:
By definition, lying requires intent [in the same vein as how disinformation differs from misinformation solely by the prior being intentional]. Many people confuse lying and telling the truth with absolute truths, but that’s not at all what it refers to.
You can hate, reject, pity, or otherwise hold a negative view of some sort against all of Christianity, its Churches/denominations, and its followers but, even then, “lying” (at least a a concious level and in regards to their beliefs) is not something the lay follower of the religion is known for.
Rather, since a primary issue held against organized religion is its brainwashing and insistance on blind faith, it’d be more intuitive to argue *against* that association.
Sure, that’s not necessarily going to hold true once you move up the rankings, as manipulation is one of the primary tools of those in leadership positions among religions. By way of that at least some degree of lying, no matter how well intentioned, is going to be assumed.
But from the perspective of parents to their children? Sure, they may make use of their beliefs to control, shape, or otherwise manipulate their children, but that’s a behavior that’s by no means restricted to the influence of religion.
As far as holding to their beliefs and being of the consideration that those beliefs are for the best for their children [be that for the sake of the child’s mortal life, the child’s spiritual circumstances, or for the sake of the parent’s social position], lying probably isn’t a common thing.
Again, humans in general can be awful, and religion does tend to give easy excuses for bringing out those behaviors (conversely, it also gives easy excuses for bringing out positive behaviors, so it’s important to not take any overly firm stances on the matter), but that holds no correlation to parents actively lying about religion.
Sure, parents often present Santa and Christianity to their children in a similar way, which makes correlations between the two that much easier, but – as a final reiteration- it’s not lying unless the parent both believes God doesn’t exist and that Christianity is not of benefit for the child.
In the circumstance of Joyce’s all-Christian family and relatives, and the fact that Christianity *can* be a positive influence on children [though, arguably, it’s a slapped together, crude, makeshift substitute for proper, hands-on parenting (when not used in conjunction with such); On the other hand, often parents aren’t developed enough themselves to take such an approach, so using a ready-made substitute can quite firmly be considered an ideal approach], we have to assume that this *was* what he considered the best for Joyce, even if he *didn’t* believe in his religion (nevermind that we haven’t seen any indication that he doesn’t).
Bit wordy, so, a somewhat tl;dr conclusion:
He may not be an ideal parent, but he’s not lying and, further, we’ve seen no indication that his priorities aren’t at least somewhat in the right place. Holding him to a firmly critical view, when he has firmly taken Joyce’s and Becky’s sides ever since Joyce started questioning her upbringing and background, is just deeply unfair to him.
Moreover, cutting him off, regardless of his mistakes, when he’s trying his best and hasn’t yet made any major parental failures, all for the sake of indulging negative emotions *is* pretty Kylo Ren. I mean, that’s pretty much what you’d expect the dictionary definition of that to be, if we start using his name for such a purpose. 😛
Definitions of lying aside, Hank went along with teaching her bullshit for her entire life. Teaching her prejudice and bigotry. Teaching her ridiculous myths instead of science. Even the “sexual purity” part is all wrapped up in preparing her for a limited gender role – marry young and homeschool their kids. No further ambitions allowed.
That he’s changing now is great, but it doesn’t make the damage he’s done vanish.
None of this, by the way, is an attack on Christianity in general. Joyce’s particular branch of the religion is screwed up in ways that many others aren’t.
I’ve no arguments to any of that. Society in general has an extreme amount of indoctrinated manipulations to it, and Christianity has always had a tendency of being on the forefront of promoting those. It’s awful, and deserves discussion. It is, however, a bit of a different topic.
The real consideration within this topic, however, is whether Joyce’s reponse is appropriate or healthy. It is not. Further relevant considerations are whether he intentionally harmed her, with proper agency. All signs show he did not- he either thought it was best for her, went along with what was easy, or was too caught in his own indoctrinated state to do any better.
The fact that he’s choosing his daughter over what’s familiar, easy- that means, when push comes to shove, he does do what is right, and does have his priorities in order.
Again, the discussion isn’t whether Christianity is good or whether he’s a good person. It’s whether he’s trying to be a good parent and actively letting her down, and whether her worldy bitterness including him is fair or not.
*or actively letting her down, I suppose would be more appropriate formatting.
Lying requires intent, BSing does not. Also, while he is trying his best, he HAS made major parental failures. The things he taught Joyce were harmful and while he didn’t realize it at the time, the harm’s still there. Sometimes that is enough to cut someone off. I don’t know if Joyce will, but while calling him a BSing asshole isn’t the nicest thing in the world, it’s not really untrue either.
So, your entire argument is “humans make mistakes”?
If you’re trying to say that he has been “part of the problem”, then that’s true enough. If you’re trying to say that he’s directly deserving of her bitterness, then not so much.
Yeah, he is directly deserving of bitterness resulting from harm he actually did. He didn’t intend to cause harm but he still did and if Joyce is angry with him for it, yeah, he earned that.
Sincerely believed bullshit is STILL bullshit.
Mind you, Becky is a believer and doesn’t believe it’s bullshit. At least the parts she believe in — and she’s not wrong. Because if her religion is right, it’s right. Which is an important thing here to discuss. She hates the homophobia and hate against her faith’s own precepts done in her faith’s name–not the faith.
Not sure that line of argument leads anywhere good.
If we go completely relativist, then their faith’s homophobia is just as “right” as anything else it might teach. Carol and Ross were just as right.
If we don’t, we can argue against the sexual purity bullshit as easily as the homophobia bullshit.
Believed bullshit may still be bullshit, but someone who believes what they are saying and is not saying it with the intent to deceive anyone is NOT lying.
Lying is one way of BSing, but it’s not the only way. Another is peddling bullshit.
Just because you believe BS doesn’t mean you’re not peddling it. Anti vaxxers aren’t less BSers because they genuinely believe what they’re saying. Likewise, sexual purity isn’t less BS because Hank genuinely believed it was important.
Joyce was lied to about at least one thing:
how Becky’s mom died.
Is he lying if HE truly believes in God and what they taught Joyce? She is currently acting like a teenager who thinks the world is out to get her – THAT in fact, IS a phase. And one she has to get through like we all do when losing our religion. But I dont blame Becky for telling her to grow up. Becky probably went through “the entire world is against me” her whole life and alone at that. She is finally out and asking for advice, on what to do as a Christian (because she still is one) and her supposedly Christian friend is being completely dismissive of her concerns. For an atheist, thats a jerk move. You dont have to dismiss every religion you come in contact to, and certainly not to someone in a crisis. Becky is being insensitive to Joyce but Joyce hasnt talked to her about it, and is being rude to Becky.
In my urban fantasy novel, an angel (in a sword), says, “Atheists are not evil, just wrong.”
“I resent you calling us wrong.” – Protagonist
The angel said, “I’m not going to dignify that with a response.”
But, didn’t he?
Dignify that, I mean.
With his response.
Well played.
🙂
Yeah, in any fantasy world where Angels and Demons actually, demonstrably EXIST, Atheists are (usually) going to be wrong by definition.
Of course, in those worlds, the Misotheists stand a much better chance of being RIGHT.
This.
Usually. Though it gets tricky. I’ve read plenty of fantasy worlds where demons exist, with no trace of gods. Or even where angels exist, but not God.
Or at least things that we would take to be angels or demons.
Others where “gods” existed, but were really mortals faking it.
It’s kind of that thing where if you found out unicorns existed it might mean you’d be a little less surprised if dragons were real too: but one does not necessarily mean the other exists. It’s just a less laughable notion or possibility now.
Joyce wears cynicism like a lady wears mink.
Live mink in this case. The result is just a bloody mess.
I don’t know, Becky, I like this Joyce.
The lack of Brainwashing is good, but Bitter Cynicism doesn’t really suit Joyce.
Clearly, she should just smile more.
No, cynicism isnt the answer. I mean, don’t smile when you dont feel like it. Cynicism is worst than naive behaviors because cynicism makes you be stuck. The cynical will critique everything, but wouldn’t offer solutions. The only solution is death and destruction and accepting that everything is shitty and nothing changes.
that is … not what cynicism is. That’s not even what nihilism is.
I want to point this out since it hasn’t been: telling a woman to smile over an argument is a double dick move – a dick move because it’s done in the interest of (cis)men and a dick move because it makes women responsible of uplighting mood for everyone, and generally encourage the stereotype of them being airhead. I’m quite sure it isn’t what you meant, but it does sound like “women can’t/shouldn’t be angry”.
No Jamie was just attempting to sarcastically dismiss Ace’s argument by comparing them to those who say things like women should smile more. Which is really disingenuous and irritating.
Today’s strip was brought to you by STATE FAIR corn dogs.
The alt-text commands and I must obey: “You don’t fear death, you welcome it. Your punishment must be more severe.”
Agreed.
“Calm down Doctor, now is not the time for fear. That comes later.”
Or, perhaps more pertinent to Joyce:
“Oh yes, I was wondering what would break first, your spirit or your body?”
“I’d kill for anything. I’d kill to silence a grating voice, to darken the light in the eyes that dared look at me.” -Batman: Knightfall
Ok, maybe not so pertinent.
I guess I kinda had in mind this famous mix-up.
I mean in Joyce’s defense her defiance has only lead to heartache while Becky’s has lead to a job she isn’t qualified for, an apartment, and a girlfriend so . . .
That, uhhh, that’s is not what her defiance got her. It got her thrown out of college, kidnapped, and basically excommunicated in her hometown.
Exactly! Writer fiat is what got her a job she isn’t qualified for, an apartment, and a girlfriend!
And that’s interesting, so it’s fine.
Plus, life can lead you some really weird places sometimes, so it doesn’t break “suspension of disbelief.”
Heartache after “thirty whole seconds”.
Becky has been aware of sexuality (and thus her own complete incompatibility with her community) for years.
And I think she was the one who would do things like sneak out at night (remember she mentioned that when she, Joyce and Jocelyne were breaking into her house to find her records.) Joyce probably was the one who always followed the rules. Becky knew that some of the rules were wrong. Now suddenly Joyce is realizing the way they were brought up was wrong, and she’s all bitter, and not trying to help Becky with her dilemma.
“Years”? I think it’s a lot more recent than that. She only found out in college, with her roommate.
Not really. She only acted on it with her roommate, but we’ve been given to understand she’s been in love with Joyce for years. She might not have been fully aware of it or named it, but it certainly did seep through her Christian mental firewall enough to make her question things long before college.
Hm, must not remember that. Would you mind linking the strips which imply that, please?
This strip came to mind, not sure if this is what they had in mind.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/hankypankyme/
Sorry for the late reply. I didn’t have a specific strip in mind, it was just my general impression. Possibly wrong, too, though Diane’s link seems to support my theory. There’s also the time when Becky confesses her love, when she says something along the lines of “all that talk about boys, you were clearly overdoing it and we both knew it, right? RIGHT???”. It felt to me like she was saying that back then she was already in love and discounted Joyce’s boy-talk because of that.
…but again it might just be me!
And God sent her a real-life superhero.
She has plenty of reasons to trust God.
A superhero with serious mental health issues
It comes with the territory. Some of us have some serious survivors’ guilt over our origin stories. I killed three trucks…
I hope those trucks you killed weren’t autobots!
“Perhaps he’s wondering why you would shoot a man before throwing him out of a plane.”
God, but I loved Hardy’s Bane. First time he’s been written as smart.
Dammit, this was supposed to be a reply to Marsh.
I wasn’t anticipating this reaction, but it makes perfect sense.
Also, “our parents”. Good lord, Becky, you are in for the mother of all letdowns from your new mom.
I suspect she has exactly accurate expectations for her new mom. And her expectations for her new dad are probably more cautious than joyce’s.
Her new mom…Blaine ? 😐
Becky and Amazi-Girl are now step-sisters
I think our parents there was meant as their collective parents, not as her having adopted Joyce’s parents.
Becky’s parents and Joyce’s parents collectively as “our parents”.
oops looks like Joyce’s shit and Becky’s shit explode on contact
I don’t understand why Becky is so angry.
I think she still holds her mom in esteem, and doesn’t like Joyce saying all of the people who raised them were awful, bc that includes her mom
Nah, it’s because Becky, as a lesbian, has been dealing with and questioning the teachings of their upbringing — likely alone! — for who knows how many years now…all without losing her faith or going into whatever you want to call Joyce’s funk. Source: the emphasis on “you’ve.”
That makes sense. I missed the emphasis there.
Hell, it could be both. We can’t even be sure that religion isn’t part of what killed her Mom, so for all we know it could be the same thing. (Fundies do tend to have really terrible opinions on mental healthcare.)
Cancer killed Becky’s mom, but it’s entirely possible her treatment was delayed by blaming her symptoms on a lack of faith instead of cancer, or by not doing self-examinations to detect the cancer early because palpitating the breasts was “sinful”.
Cancer didn’t kill Becky’s mom. That was the lie Joyce’s parents used to avoid talking about suicide attempts.
The opposite end of this “you haven’t had to deal with this as long as me” is that while yes Becky has suffered longer, that also means she has had way more time to process it.
As someone who is LGBT and was raised Christian, to be honest, I think that I had less trouble breaking away from a lot of it because there was a fundamental part of myself that never fit, and it was a gradual walk away during my entire life. For someone who broke from it all at once, I imagine it would be much harder.
IDK man, I think that Becky is being really unfair here. Joyce has been in a mood for like a day and she is lecturing her and telling her to grow up. Like, dude give Joyce time to process anything.
I think that’s likely it. Especially given how it was this strip which msde Becky angry as opposed to just considering Joyce’s attitude “a bummer”.
Another part of it is that Becky, despite everything she’s dealt with, remains Christian. I imagine Joyce’s honrstly sudden attitude change about her faith is not only jarring, but aggravating.
Probably because, unlike Joyce, she still identifies as Christian, and isn’t really taking kindly to Joyce’s newfound bitter cynicism regarding the church, especially since, as she points out in the last panel, she’s been dealing with shit longer and more directly than Joyce and her faith’s still alive and kicking.
I think it’s a combination of multiple reasons, some more justified than others.
First, there’s the fact that in spite of no longer believing in many of her previous beliefs, she still believes in God and feels like Joyce is pushing her disillusionment onto Becky.
Second, she feels like Joyce is ignoring Becky’s experience: Becky has been dealing with a crisis of faith for much longer and has experienced serious social negatives and threats, and is frustrated that Joyce isn’t going to her.
Third, she still probably thinks Joyce is hot but isn’t really the same person she originally fell in love with but it’s okay because Becky has an awesome girlfriend now but even so due to various reasons she’s still drifting away from her best friend.
Fourth, she feels like “moody disillusioned Joyce who hates everything” isn’t the same person she used to be: even though Becky went through a similar crisis of faith and forced-distancing from people she loved, she still felt like she was the same person and so she thinks Joyce isn’t properly going through her problems.
…and so on. Probably lots of different reasons, some more justified than others, some more accurate than others.
Also, like, re: the thirty seconds line
Joyce just basically – though unintentionally – called Becky the same as everyone else who’s been hurting them and getting them to believe things without thinking them through.
Becky is responding angrily because her feelings are hurt that Joyce would thoughtlessly accuse her of not thinking through what she believes. So she responded – in an admittedly unhelpful way – by telling Joyce that Becky has had a lot more time to think about her beliefs than Joyce, and that Joyce is the one thoughtlessly lashing out at others, and that Becky thinks Joyce is the one who hasn’t really thought out what she believes now – she’s just reflexively going against everything she used to believe regardless of whether it makes sense to or not.
Also also, Becky is also probably frustrated and doesn’t understand why: she likely thought Joyce was someone she could always turn to when she needed help, but now Joyce is being unhelpful – for valid? reasons – but…yeah.
Frustrated, angry, has lots of different reasons but doesn’t really get why she feels that way other than “My best friend is rejecting things I care about and I feel like she is just rejecting everything without thinking and I don’t know what to do so I’m just going to leave her and hope she gets over this without me, because I can’t deal right now.”
yup. 🙁
Stopping for a few seconds to decode Joyce’s minced profanity.
BSing is in itself a common turn of phrase – yes, it’s short for “bullshitting”, but in nonswearing communities it exists as its own word. It isn’t *considered* to be short for anything, even though it is.
B-hole is short for butthole, because butt is considered only proper when actually referring to anatomy. A-hole would be straight out of the question.
I have to say, I wasn’t expecting Joyce’s newfound lack of faith to put a wedge between her and Becky but this makes so much sense.
I predict more suffering.
It’s not just the lack of faith, it’s also how she’s messed up with Jacob.
So yeah she’s bitter at everyone… but also herself. Possibly more so, since she ‘fell’ for all the ‘lies’ that she’s been fed for her whole life.
In fact, I can see a fresh wave of bitterness at Dorothy; her parents gave her the choice and freedom to choose atheism. Joyce was pretty much spoon fed one option her whole life.
“I predict more suffering” Sorry, that’s hardly a prediction in this comic…
“wanted, my best friend but not changing so much so quickly”
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/discreet/
BINGO
There is no phase, only a road going somewhere with no way back.
I am not bullish, however, that she’s at odds for only thirty seconds. It’s bound to be more.
also, textless Patreon strip that I can take a spin for yucks, ooh 🤗
Carla: “Does this make me more menacing to you?”
Mike: “Nah, Amber did it better.”
Carla: “Turning your back on me just makes it easier to sneak up on you”.
Mike: “My jacket is wired to a Taser in my pocket. Touch me and you fry”.
On the one hand, Joyce being bitter isn’t helping things any and Becky does have a point about Joyce only recently having a problem with the way things are.
On the other hand, if Joyce is losing her faith then that isn’t just a phase and Becky needs to respect that if it is the case. I can certainly see how recent events and thoughts would cause Joyce to question her faith. I certainly was bitter about things when I first lost my faith but I’ve grown out of it. It takes some time although not everyone gets there, some people remain bitter forever, faith or not.
True, but time and place, y’know? Your best friend at a party freaking out to you about whether to have sexy times with her girlfriend is not the time for bitterness over your parents and the church. That kind of talk is for late night hangouts, over coffee/tea in the back of cafes, sitting under a tree picking at the grass.
It’s pretty much impossible for Joyce to compartmentalize her best friend wanting to do premarital hanky panky and Joyce’s own personal crises about her entire upbringing, faith and view of the world and herself. Becky was unlucky with her timing, but she was the one to approach Joyce.
Becky’s understandably annoyed that Joyce is killing her incredibly good mood with the latter’s cynical, bitter vibes. And Joyce is not in a mindset to be fit to advise Becky on this matter. It’s just a messy situation where both are too wrapped up in their own issues to emotionally and mentally fully be there for the other.
*nods* 🙁
Pretty much. The only real alternative would be to bottle it all up, pretend to Becky that she still believes that premarital hanky-panky is a sin that would damage the precious petals of her soul or whatever nonsense it was that she used to spout.
And she’s not going to do that.
I’ve grown out of my angry-at-everything-and-especially-my-ex-religion phase, but it was definitely a phase I needed to go through
Cutting your religion out of you hurts, and anger can dull the pain, and keep you from trying to go back to how things were, even if that would be so much worse in the long run.
So, Becky is somewhat right, but she sure isn’t helping.
This is just bad timing. Becky and Joyce could have a lengthy discussion about this but neither of them is in the mood.
Like what, Becky, she’s only allowed to question the stuff that you wanted her to question & not the stuff you haven’t wanted to question?
Becky is hurting my personal feelings and I like Becky.
I maybe am too emotionally attached to these characters.
I think it’s more “I lost everything over religion and you’ve just had to question, I don’t need to hear your stress on top of my own”.
Becky is questioning, and… well, she’s right. Reflexively deciding everything you were taught is terrible and being angry at everything is a phase, and not the same thing as coming to a thought-out conclusion that everything you were taught is terrible. And it’s a normal phase, but Becky may not have the energy to deal with it herself.
Except Becky’s not questioning. We’ve seen her in church, and she reaffirmed quite openly and clearly that she’s still a very strong believer.
Oh, she’s questioning some of the details and nuances and crap, absolutely. But we haven’t seen anything to indicate she’s questioning her faith as a whole.
Becky hasn’t even questioned the premarital sex thing until this minute, and now only because she wants to do sex. it was pretty obvious to me before I even deconverted that the purity stuff was more about property than morality (and I’m talking as someone who had a semi arranged marriage and wasn’t allowed to hold hands with my fiance until our wedding, which was before I questioned that crap. … Also before I realized I was gay) I just mean I didn’t question sexual purity just because I wanted to bang somebody.
I questioned it because I questioned every single thing I’d been taught and most of it fell apart in my mind under scrutiny.
I also lost all my friends and extended family, parents, in laws, everyone but my spouse & kids (which feels…. complicated) when I left the church 7 years ago and I still had a therapist recently refer to being an atheist as a phase so I just had a really intense reaction to Becky’s face and words here, even though tbh what Joyce is doing isn’t that much like my own experience, and Becky’s probably referring more to Joyce’s attitude.
Hello I’m Robbie and I have trauma, lol
*hugs Robbie*
*Sends e-hugs* I advise looking for a new therapist – they should be supportive in your journey, not dismissive.
I think Becky thinks that premarital sex is about being with your partner and loving them, not about property. The fact it’s an alien viewpoint to many does not make it a wrong one because it’s her body and experiences that are what she’s deciding on.
Is it? Is it about her body and experiences?
Or is it a viewpoint that was drilled into her from childhood as part of the same faith that said being a lesbian was sinful? That she has ditched one, but not the other, doesn’t mean that the other is any better grounded than the one.
I’ve also got no idea what you mean by “premarital sex is about being with your partner and loving them”. The whole point is that premarital sex is a sin. It’s not okay if you love them, it’s still a sin.
I think Becky is more having a problem with Joyce’s anger and sudden doubt in religion, which Becky doesn’t have despite having more potential justification for it. Does that make Becky 100% in the right? No, but she can want Joyce to not be bitter and angry.
yeah, fuck you, Becky.
Wasn’t that the whole argument to begin with?
Just cause you’ve been at odds longer doesn’t make Joyce wrong.
Look, if Joyce is seriously and sincerely turning on her faith, then fine.
But folks are getting a little… creepy about how much they’re cheering it on.
I’m agnostic as fuck. I fully agree that organized religion has most likely done more to hurt humanity than help it, and American Fundamentalist Christianity is sure as fuck stomping down on that gas pedal these days.
But that’s not the only way. We have Becky who has remained devoutly Christian despite being ostracized by others by holding onto the core of it, not the bullshit “Using my religion to justify my hatred” crap that it gets saddled with. We have Jacob, who is a believer while also something of a free thinker, and who would be good for Joyce if she didn’t become so insistent on jumping in his pants.
This does feel like a phase. Yes, it’s a phase that can lead to a more long-term athiesm/agnosticism/whatever-the-fuck-you-want-to-call-it-ism, no question. But this is mostly just her being super bitter about everything, lashing out at everything.
Note her advice from yesterday. The Athiest said “Look, if you’re both ready, I don’t think there’s anyone up there that’s going to disapprove, whatever”. And Joyce basically just said “Doesn’t matter. Go fuck her. Enjoy. Life is pain.”
Well said.
And yeah, some people in the comments are being a bit… something about it.
I agree. I am agnostic, and I think wwhat Joyce is saying isnt actual belief or unbelief, but spite and self defeat. She is being uneccesarily mean, and I understand why because I have been like her.
To believe is to have a spiritual personal connection with people, nature and the universe. To be an unbeliever is to accept the reality around you and find other ways to connect with people, nature and the universe, like science, arts and Transformers.
hat Joyce is saying is just the tantrum of a girl that can’t accept her on flaws and that doesn’t allow other people to have flaws too. She just gave up on herself.
I’m having the opposite problem. A lot of people are acting like real tools about Joyce tonight.
Honestly. My read is that both of them are right and wrong at the same time.
Becky is right to say that Joyce needs to grow up. Being bitter, while understandable based on what she’s gone through (getting roofied and almost raped, the confrontation with Ross, her mom thinking Ross was right, Jacob), won’t help her come to terms with her beliefs or lack thereof. She’s also lumping Hank and Becky’s mom into the “BSing B-Holes” group, which doesn’t sit well with Becky for reasons (Hank being more of a father than she’s ever had, and her mom because of the suicide).
Becky is wrong because she’s missing the context of Joyce’s hurt. She’s looking at this from a viewpoint of “my dad was abusive, what does this chick know”, which isn’t helping. There’s also Becky’s unrequited feelings for Joyce and her sex-goggles blinding her to what’s really going on here.
Joyce is right because, in the end, her life is her own. She needs to figure out who she wants to be, and her experiences matter to that in the same way that Becky’s matter to her. Becky minimizing what’s happened to her because she’s been questioning herself.for less time is reductive and unhelpful, and will drive a wedge between them if it keeps up.
Joyce is wrong because, despite everything that’s happened to her, “hanky-panky the world” is not a healthy attitude to live by. She, like Becky, is ignoring the other’s life experiences as a part of who that person is. While questioning her beliefs is a good thing, doing so because “life is pain, and there is nothing else” just makes her into an edgelord.
Tl;Dr: both of them are too self-absorbed by their own issues right now to be good for each other. They need to cool off, and I suspect that a therapist wouldn’t be a bad choice for either of them, just to have someone impartial to listen to their stories and concerns. Not because they’re “wrong”, but because someone to talk it out with without being personally invested in their pasts is a good thing.
That’s about my take on it, yeah. I’m not entirely sure whether this strip’s Becky annoyed that Joyce is losing faith in general or that she’s specifically doing so in this very nihilist, lashing-out way. If the former, then Becky, glad you can keep faith but you have to acknowledge that maybe Joyce CAN’T reconcile God in general into her worldview after everything, and that’s okay. But if it’s the latter, then… yeah, this sucks, Joyce, but you are entirely capable of building a code of ethics for yourself that’s not built on God but still involves treating people with respect, and I’m certain you will get there in time.
These two absolutely need therapy. They need it so bad.
“Being bitter, while understandable based on what she’s gone through (getting roofied and almost raped, the confrontation with Ross, her mom thinking Ross was right, Jacob), won’t help her come to terms with her beliefs or lack thereof.”
Hard disagree and I’m getting really REALLY tired of people acting like anger or bitterness is inherently unhealthy or unhelpful. It’s a necessary part of dealing with BSing assholes hurting you. It’s part of understanding what they did wrong and why. As she processes that, she’ll move on and a lot of it will move to the back burner or fade entirely but right now, this is needed. Becky might not get that because she’s not coming to grips with losing her religion, and it’s not the response Becky needed right now, but no, this is not some fit of immaturity that requires being told ‘grow up’. Maybe Becky should grow up and admit that just because she’s been in a bad spot and kept her religion doesn’t mean Joyce has to or that Joyce can’t be angry or bitter for one fucking night.
buT cIVilITY
No, wait, in-comic example, how did I momentarily forget this scene existed, it’s one of my favourites:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/prevented/
No one’s saying her anger isn’t valid or that her points are void because she’s angry. And if I came off that way, I apologize, that’s not what I meant.
But anger does have a way of coloring everything. It turns small problems into huge problems and can prevent you from properly handling them.
Is Joyce being angry and bitter a problem? Not really, no, it’s a legit reaction to what’s happened.
But Joyce *staying* angry and bitter, to the point where she’s just stewing in it and not using it as motivation for positive action, that is a problem. That’s why I’m seeing this as just a phase: Not because the emotions are invalid, but because the emotions need to lead to something further, wherever they go.
The way comments nest makes it hard to track once the chain starts growing* (and heavens forbid you’re reading this on a cellphone and not on a computer where you can use the mouse cursor to track who’s replying to whom), but if you track up, my comment was a follow-up to BBCC’s which was, in turn, a reply to He Who Abides’s.
In either case, I wouldn’t even consider this a phase, because it hasn’t lasted long enough – it’s more at “mood” length right now, like having a terrible night’s sleep and being testy for the rest of the day.
*bonus points for when the chain grows long enough that you can’t reply to the person you’re actually replying to
Even her previous anger “phase” – that you reference above, wasn’t really that long.
Partly, especially then, it’s the drawn out nature of the comic. She had her Rich Mullins dream, that I think was the start of her realization that she didn’t feel God anymore, 2 or 3 nights ago, but for us it’s been months.
It’s only been a night. And I disagree that anger needs to be productive and lead to positive motivation to be healthy or worthwhile feeling. Sometimes feeling it is important in its own right.
Not if anger or bitterness are being felt just for their own sake. I’ve been in that feedback loop before, and it wasn’t good for anyone.
Good thing nobody ever said ‘for its own sake’. I said feeling it is important because pretending you can only be angry if you’re ‘productive’ about it is bullshit.
Jacob is very much a patronizing asshole in his own right.
Becky: *antagonizes Dorothy like a jealous middle schooler*
Becky: *runs out on Leslie and doesn’t even text to let her know she’s okay.*
Joyce: *makes a sour comment about religion*
Becky: YoU NeED To GrOw Up
Beckys falws dont earse joyce flaws. They are both troubled teenagers that need to face their own challenges. Theres no big good or big evil here.
It just makes me sad because I remember sympathizing with Becky a lot when the comments were constantly trashing her for being “rude” and “selfish” after she first became a regular character. She was flawed, but she was doing her best and didn’t deserve that level of harshness.
So seeing her turn around and take this cold, condescending attitude toward her BEST FRIEND for daring to be in a sullen mood is really disappointing.
Like yes one friend’s flaws don’t erase another’s but friends should have some degree of tolerance for each other’s flaws, and telling someone specifically to “grow up” is pretty hypocritical when you’ve done plenty of immature stuff that they’ve put up with out of love.
They do, however, make Becky an obnoxious hypocrite.
regardless of the overarching situation, becky kinda burst into their conversation, asked for advice, then got mad at joyce’s attitude. Kinda showing how high-strung she is atm.
Kot means turd in German lol
I’m aware.
The username is a reference to a homestarrunner character
This is a great example of two people going in opposite directions at the wrong moment. Both need their best friend’s support to get through their immediate personal crisis, but their best friend cannot support them because of her own crisis.
Becky needs reassurance that, even though some Christians are horrible people, Christianity is a good religion with values worth respecting.
Joyce needs to be supported when challenging the validity of her (and Becky’s) Christian beliefs.
There is nowhere for them to meet in the middle. Dorothy is trying to create the middle ground, but she does not have the bond Joyce and Becky have and she is Atheist. Thus, neither fully respect her opinion.
If they are the friends we all believe them to be, they will get over this, hopefully sooner than later, and will have a solid heart-to-heart when the time is right.
While i agree with you that they are both having their own, different, personal crises here; i disagree with your assertion that christianity is a good religion. It has -some- good values, but those are shared with other religions and non-supernatural moral systems. The values that are uniquely christianit are not good (e.g. original sin, substitutionary atonement, etc.).
It wasn’t an assertion. It was a description of Becky’s state of mind.
This exactly. Thank you.
The stuff in the second half of their book is pretty good, particularly the part that says that the majority of the first half no longer applies.
The problem is the people who won’t let go of the first half of the book, even after they get told that things have changed and it no longer applies.
It doesn’t help that while there’s a part of the second book that says the first book no longer counts, there’s also a part of the second book that says the first book still counts. There’s something you get when texts are made up by a bunch of different people at vastly different times, and it isn’t internal consistency.
The “first book” is sometimes totally bonkers, but, followers of said book are fully allowed to notice that it’s bonkers. (Kinda like living in a city; we love it for the crazy, too.)
Hmm. People who hold onto our book, despite being told that it no longer applies ‘cuz y’all wrote a sequel that you like better…
I’m gonna hope @opus wasn’t intentionally talking about the Jews, here.
If you mean “the people” in their second paragraph, I’m pretty sure they mean christians, specifically the ones that keep brandishing quotes from the OT even though the NT has a part that says that the OT no longer applies (of course, it ALSO has a part that says that the OT still totally applies).
MY book is Spider-Man comics, in no small part thanks to Stan Lee, who stopped Ditko from making him Randian trash.
I think that anyone who says “Christianity” as a single noun is unfortunately just wrong. It is ignorant because we have, at this point, 700+ variations on Christianity including ones that diametrically believe opposite values. The Prosperity Gospel believes in the rich being rewarded by God while Jesus taught that the rich are likely damned for their greed. It’s like apples and some sort of anti-matter apple from Earth-3.
Or for a cartoon reference, see SUPPLY SIDE JESUS:
https://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp
Joyce isn’t the one stopping you from sexy make out times with your girlfriend, Becky. That is the invisible thoughtcage manufactured for you, largely by your parents. Admitting that all at once is too much, so Becky has to get defensive and covert Joyce’s core observations into an attack on her parents’ honor, which feels noble to defend against.
It’s really the cage recruiting Becky as one of its defenders.
“I have believed what I have believed longer than you, therefore I am right” feels like you have the weight of history and tradition on your side, but can easily be wrong. If memory serves, Becky only changed her mind that she can ignore her religion’s beliefs on being a lesbian about forty seconds ago.
Becky: “My parents were wrong, it’s ok to be a lesbian!”
Joyce: “Groovy. Good start, why not keep going and make out with your girlfriend?”
Becky: “How DARE you dishonor our parents?!”
And finally, I’ve noticed when people run out of truth to argue with, they’ll often switch to “I don’t like your tone.” Feels righteous for no additional truth cost.
Joyce’s response to Becky’s dilemma was not in any way close to what you paraphrased, even in tone. Her response was more along the lines “who cares, everything we’ve been taught is a lie because the people who raised us are liars”, which is her lashing out and not exactly a helpful response to the “should I do sexy stuff with my girlfriend?” question. Besides, including Becky’s dead mum in the “BSing butthole” category probably struck a nerve.
It’s not helpful, but considering that Joyce is in the middle of her own existential crisis right now, it’s understandable.
Did I say otherwise?
Did you actually read this strip?
well… timely as usual. Guess who’s literally finishing up a theological debate w my fundie mother right now? I also told her I was bi just to prove a point, and like… holy shit, I’ve come out to so many people this year… my mom as bi, various people as trans, and my spouse as an atheist. It’s been a hell of a year. And I feel Joyce’s frustration here, and maybe I’m just weirdly sentimental bc of my own sitch, but I’m proud of how far she’s come and can’t wait to see where we go from here.
Happy Coming Out Year, then – hope it works out for you.
Congratulations! You’ve taken an important step and I hope you will receive the love and acceptance you deserve,
Let me guess, all of this will end with Joyce coming to the conclusion that every other Christian branch got it wrong and that her gut feeling, which is no way affected by modern secular and humanistic values is the true way God intended.
I think the conclusion will be that no matter if you are Christian or Atheist, you have to be kind and understanding, and fight for doing what is right. God could be a cat and it wouldnt affect how we live.
It would affect people who base their lives around their religion and weren’t able to bury their heads in the sand following such a revelation. I imagine religious communities would shrink quite drastically if there were some kind of widespread communal revelation.
Weirdly, there’s two elements that blew me away when I thought about it:
1. Jesus created separation of Church and State, “Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and what is to God what is God’s.”
2. Jesus’ whole thing was that Gentles were part of God’s thing so the religion shouldn’t be exclusive.
It made me weep about what I was raised with.
It would also affect people who are religiously opposed batting things onto the floor.
If God’s a cat, I’m rejoining the faith. I might not be a fan of religion, but cats are gods lol
Yeah. In the end. /s
Here’s a hint: Joyce is largely autobiographical and the author is an atheist now.
Eh, Willis can take the characters where he wants. It’s probable it’ll go this way but maybe Joyce won’t end up drawing porn on the web to support his $900 a day Transformers habit.
That’s Ethan’s thing.
Though she has started writing erotica, so who knows.
It’s LITERATURE!
It is really hard to consider what she is writing to be erotica.
It was the goal at the start, but is he still an atheist now? There is a second problem, beside time passing, behind this assertion: is word of god something you can when it’s written trust by someone who deosn’t believe in god? Can you be an heretic against yourself? And why is this the last set of Oblatenkuchen? Why does it have to be an Oblatenkuchen in a discussion about religion, and why do I keep typping it Oblast? Why god why do I address you while I don’t believe in you – I mean beside it makes me looking less like a lunatic when I’m talking to myself? Oh wait, it’s just how I renamed siri, my bad.
Becky’s been at odds with Toedad WAY longer, sure, but for different reasons than a loss of faith.
Yeah. “Your parents are always right because of God,” said their yuth pastor.
“Makes sense,” thought Joyce, and so, when her parents turned out to not be always right it made her question God.
“Wait, that can’t be right. My dad is an idiot,” thought Becky, and so she didn’t tie God to him.
Also possibly if her mother had differing views etc and maybe told Becky outright that their church preaches that wives should be obedient but the bible teaches honouring your spouse, and that sometimes you smile and nod for an easier life, and do whatever you need to in order to keep your inner self whole and healthy, and that’s OK because that fits in far better with Jesus’ teachings?
Whereas the closest to rebellion Joyce’s mother went was “I pretend the subjects of this song are married so it isn’t about premarital hanky lanky and can still listen to and enjoy it”…
My kingdom for a like button. Many like buttons.
Becky is right. Edginess and self loathing are just a phase, an anger that is caused by the problems at a moment in time, and like any emotion that anger dissipates and then you realize you could have approached the subject in a better way. Maybe talk with the adults in your life and communicate how you feel? Don’t burn all bridges because sometimes a familiar relationship can be saved. Of course, when it comes to nazis and sexual predators punching faces is an appropriate course of action.
When the adults are to stubborn to change and the youth are too stubborn to trust the adults, then both sides will kill each other and we will lose our past to learn from our mistakes, and our future to live the lives we want.
Not all anger goes away. Hopefully we move on to other things and it gets pushed to the back burner, but it doesn’t always go away.
Anger doesnt go away, but it should consume you like a Dark Souls bonfire. Sometimes you just get tired of being hateful. Sometimes you just want to take a nap or eat a pizza. It is really tiresome to be angry 24 7 when the world around seems in chaos.
shouldnt*
It’s hardly consuming Joyce. She’s been moody for one evening.
Yeah. This.
I have a lot of anger. Over how religious arses want me to own every Pol Pot and Mao by association but also try to fob off the Hitlers and d pedophile priests on me as an atheist.
Over how my relatives would rather spend money on blowing up children halfway around the world than on maintenance of our healthcare system.
Over how my father thinks of me as chattel. Up to and including “jokingly” threatening to artificially inseminated me against my will because his desire for grandkids trumps my body autonomy.
Over how my parents’ religion thinks women aren’t fully people and how men “deserve a say” in what happens to women’s bodies.
Over how my parents sincerely believe that women’s suffrage was a mistake because babies.
I can go on.
I am angry over vile beliefs my relatives hold.
I am angry that my parents will die without ever accepting and caring for me as me. I am angry about how I can’t introduce myself as their son because damn it I love them too much to lose them and I know that would lose them.
None of that is a phase. Time won’t make it better. It just is.
I am sorry for what has happened to you. I don’t know you so I can’t judge you nor say an opinion because that is shitty and this is just a comic comment page.
However, I am of the belief that the world can become better, and as humans we shouldn’t let ourselves be consumed by hatred because it will kill us. The world is full of horrors, but it is the only world we got. Out there is just void with radiation and planets that are too far away to reach right now.
Anger isn’t the same as hatred. Anger is a healthy response to outrageous injustice. Anger only becomes unhealthy if you wallow in it or use it as an excuse to indulge your worst impulses. Otherwise it’s a normal human emotion and not the same as hatred or bigotry, and I will ask you to keep that toxic positivity nonsense well away from me.
Hell, sometimes people need to wallow for a little while. Anger’s not some special emotion that needs to lead to productivity to be valid. Sometimes people just need to be mad for a while. It’s only been a few hours. Give her a day or two and I’m sure she’ll be fine.
>edginess and self-loathing are just a phase
I and many other addicts and depressives beg heartily to differ.
Deepression isnt the same as being an edgelord. I had depression and I despise movies where depressed people are shown as being hateful.
I was associating depression with self-loathing and edginess is usually just lashing out/a sense of humor stemming from bitterness/sadness
I dunno, I kind of think Edgelord Goth Joyce would be fun.
YES THIS 100%
Ah, nuance
Also, this is pretty much exactly the same thing Roz said to Joyce in that one class. *archives furiously* http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/outrage/
Just because you aren’t gay, poor, or a minority doesn’t mean you have any less right to be pissed off about the oppressive hegemonic systems created to herd us into our assigned paddocks. Becky has a point in that Joyce should do her best not to take out her pain on others and remember some people probably hurt a lot more than her, but I’m sorry the whole suffering decathlon triggers tf out of me.
Its the irony that Becky found comfort in her faith as a way to break out of the system like the Reformist Rabbi Joshua Ben Joseph did Pharseean fundamentalist teachings.
Joyce found herself destroyed by it.
I love, love, love how those two play off each other. They really care for each other, but they also care a lot about each other. Joyce’s thoughts about religion is as important for Becky as Becky’s are for Joyce. Both hurt when the other come to different conclusions, because it causes them to question their own belief.
“No matter what, parents are right,” said Joyce. “Nah,” said Becky. and Joyce found she was right.
“No matter what, God has my back,” Becky said. “Nah,” said Joyce, and that scares Becky.
Indeed. Good analysis.
That said, this whole conversation mostly just makes me want to smack them both upside the heads. They’re both being self-absorbed and ignoring each other’s cries for help. This is a time when they should be coming together to support each other not squabbling like spoiled brats.
And yes, I know, title of the comic, evil Dads, etc.
**makes annoyed noise**
Yyyyyep. To all this. This is what was bothering me.
Yup. :p
My Billie gravatar just got “yup”ed by a pair of Ruth gravatars.
**waggles eyebrows**
thems some deep cuts
Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, a lot of what Joyce and Becky were taught is kinda awful. But not everything that is Christian is bad. There are still values to be had. The problem that Joyce is having is that she equated all god traits with being a good Christian. Becky has been trying to separate out what she believes. She’s messing things up, but not for lack of trying. Joyce had a crisis of faith and decided to try to live without a moral compass. Even if Becky chooses to completely transition to atheism, she can still have ideas of what is right and wrong and what is right and wrong for her. She doesn’t want to rush into a physical relationship because she believes it is the wrong thing to do. I don’t think she quite knows why she thinks it’s wrong, but telling her to go the route of anarchy and screw all the rules is not the answer.
Joyce needs to quit wallowing and face the fact that she’s acting like a b-hole. She looked up to Dorothy so much because she is a good person despite being an atheist (her thoughts, not mine). Joyce needs to figure out that what you believe isn’t as important as what you choose to do. Just because she doesn’t know what to believe anymore doesn’t mean she gets to be awful. Especially because the reason she is having a crisis of faith is that she started to see that a lot of the non-religious people in her life are better people than some of the religious people in her life.
*good traits
Yeah. These are all valid points.
Exactly. As Joyce stated, she envied the strawman of atheists. She wanted the freedom and anarchy, and now that she tasted the strawman she feels awful.
Atheism, Christianity, what matters is to learn to be kind and respectful. Seriously, I once followed an atheist page in facebook, but then unfollowed it once I saw transphobic stuff, and then I discovered that the so called “skeptics” of youtube are a bunch of transphobes.
The amount of hategories I learn about in these comments is astronomical. Just… i get why we dont want hate groups because organized harm. Haye groups are awful. But apart of me wants to know what group it is so i have a ready made list of user names fo never interact with. Ever. Its so convient to have a list of the toxic other.
Joyce isn’t really “wallowing”. She’s been dealing with doubting her faith for something like 2 days now. Got to give her a bit of room to deal with it.
Joyce… it doesn’t need to be a choice between “radical fundamental evangelism” or “atheism.”
There is a middle ground there, and most Americans fall into it.
…
She’s just feeling down about screwing up her friendship with Jacob.
to be fair Jacob was also a dick for kissing her…and playing along.
So i say they both fucked that friendship over, but her mistake was more of a dumb mistake, his was kind of mean spirited
Well said.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Joyce ended up in a non-theistic religion. Buddhist Lisa Simpson Joyce would be hilarious.
No, screwing up her friendship is a result. As she said a little bit back, her doubts about God led her to try what she imagined the easy consequence-free life of an atheist would be. Which immediately blew up in her face.
I think this has less to do with Joyce’s newfound skepticism and all to do with her temper tantrum that’s going along with it. Their families aren’t “BSing” as Joyce puts it. They’re believers. Joyce is lashing out because she realized they might not be right, and is looking to blame them for raising her that way. Becky, her best friend, recognizes that she’s being unnecessarily bitter and purposely unhelpful, and that’s what she’s calling out, not so much the views of athiesm.
Just because the person who told you BS believed it doesn’t make it less BS or them less BSing.
I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and your idea of “BS” is subjective and the basis for philosophical debate. Not saying that belief in a god is factually true, it’s just completely unknowable either way. And a belief in a god and following specific religious guidelines are two different things; I think all organized religions are bullshit but I believe that a god or gods exist.
Or maybe I’m reading the wrong thing in your posts in which case my apologies for misunderstanding.
In this case, I’m referring to things like sexual “purity”, not being allowed to know about evolution, religiously justified misogyny and homophobia, etc. Not necessarily God.
Deliberately withholding factual, proven information from your children because you’re afraid honesty will “corrupt them” is BS. End of.
We’ve had plenty of evidence of all the adults from Joyce and Becky’s background doing that. With lots of bigotry to boot.
Well I do agree with BBCC on this, because it revolves around the idea of faith, and as Bakunin notably put it, you either accept the “absurd” or don’t accept it. If you don’t then, all what it touches is subject to caution. It you do, then, you can either accept all or only a part it doesn’t matter since it’s not arguable. Ofc there’s always the third-wayists like Kierkegaard or some late anglican theologists that want to believe in faith itself, in an “idea” or a “need” of religion – but even if you can name them somehow believers, and can probably sometimes argue with them if they consider faith as unrelated to anything else in the wolrd and envisionnable unworld (not speaking for Kiekegaard here)…
Furthermore if you’re raised in an authoritarian household where the parent is the next thing to God if you believe in one, you may not be able to conceive of your parents having sincerely held and wrong beliefs.
I think the difference between lying, wrong, and disagreement is pretty big.
Palpatine is a liar.
Yoda is wrong.
Qui Gon is right.
Qui Gon is the smartest guy in the room at all times, and he’s not afraid to proceed accordingly. He’s the one who taught Yoda how to do that sweet Force-ghost trick.
Smart Qui Gon is smart
https://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0037.html
Lying and wrong both can fall under BS though. An anti-vaxxer who genuinely believes what they say is still peddling BS.
“I’m necessary evil.” — Bane.
Joyce has every right to be annoyed and kinda bitter upon realizing that much of what her parents and other adults taught when she was a child was bullshit.
Yeah, but being a jerk to her friend who came to her for advice is still being a jerk
It is like talking to anti-vaxxer (the atheists i mean) freedom of belief is a right, atheist…a lot of them won’t simply be and let be…there is a difference between saying I don’t believe in something and telling everyone whatever they believe is wrong.
And I know many religious people do the same, that doesn’t excuse you from doing the same…you don’t believe in anything good for you, you believe in reincarnation you do you, you believe in a thousand gods? tell me about it.
I’m a catholic with friends from multiple faiths.
And i have seen disillusionment and lost of faith…also spiraling, etc…everyone manages their own sanity and faith differently. Joyce is Angry, confused and disappointed…she is not an Atheist as the story has shown she isn’t. She is both in an identity crisis, a moral crisis and a crux of faith.
She will have to work out what she is going to be, but lashing out won’t help her see-thru her personal conflicts.
Also, atheists always say they believe in science ( i believe in science) but so many of them don’t know a lick of it. ( Is more of an I don’t care, things happen, but you are dumb for believing something had to start the big bang)
( i personally studied 3 years of biology in college before becoming an artist)
It’s almost like atheism encompasses a diverse array of people some of whom will be assholes because that’s what happens whenever you take a large enough cross section of society.
Do kindly quit painting all of us with the same brush.
Agreed, but it goes both ways. Neither atheism nor religiousness are a hive mind, and encompass people of all attitudes.
Where have I painted religious people in general with the same brush?
Please don’t both sides me pointing out real double standards in our society with someone parroting bigotry against atheists.
I wasn’t trying to “both sides” you, and am genuinely sorry if you feel like I did. However, future responders might throw out the “all religious people are monsters” argument, and I wanted to beat them to the punch.
Atheism does not have tenets, a foundational scripture or anything really that unites one atheist with another except for a lack of a belief in gods.
So to speak about atheists in general, rather than the persons you have a problem with is a misstep.
That’s a lot of wrong to unpack. To start, studying biology gives you ZERO insight into the Big Bang Theory, which is high level PHYSICS.
Also, Misotheism is the only sane religion. :p
I’m very much of the believe the universe and God and consciousness are one.
So, God is a deranged fanboy obsessed with the internet.
I listened to negative harmony covers of Wonderwall today, so I’m qualified to do mocap for the Kingdom Hearts games.
Misotheism? The worship of Japanese soup?
Do you have any pamphlets?
Ah, yes, catholicism, where the Pope is the uncontestable arbiter of what is right and wrong, and therefore child abuse is the fault of homosexuality and transfolk are nuclear weapons?
I play D&D with two WMDs every Thursday?
A whole new meaning to the expression “going nova”.
As a note, while funny, Papal infallibility hasn’t been church doctrine for centuries due to the fact that the church went to overthrow corrupt popes for being popes.
Amusingly, I knew a guy who was BLOWN AWAY by the concept that Catholics believed in evolution.
He literally didn’t understand Christians could believe in evolution and thought I was lying.
Papal infallibility is Church doctrine. It just doesn’t mean what many assume it means.
https://www.catholicfaithandreason.org/papal-infallibility.html
Basically only formal doctrinal pronouncements count, not any random thing a pope says.
Not every atheist is the same and I’m getting kind of sick of this damn stereotype that atheists are inherently more likely to be assholes who won’t leave people alone about it than people with religion and maybe don’t compare us to anti-vaxxers of all things please??? Anti-vaxxers are inherently harmful, atheists are not. Plenty of atheists are atheists because of trauma, because of cultist practices by the religious community around them, because of toxic behaviour their siblings and parents have acted on citing religion all the while, because it just never connected with them, because you’ve been hurt so badly that you can’t imagine this being something a fair and kind God or system of Gods and Goddesses would allow, because the religion offered doesn’t accept you for who you are or expects you to be someone you can’t be, because they just can’t accept some of the things taught to them as right.
There are far more experiences than just ‘I can’t resolve religion with science therefore everyone who believes in anything else is stupid’. Not every atheist is the edgy white boy faux academic trying to look smarter than you or flaunting dubious knowledge of science, which was already something men were doing regardless, so why wouldn’t some of them use religion as another way to try to win points and act superior? It’s not always about science or looking smart or feeling smart – sometimes people are just hurt and can’t keep holding onto faith to a higher power that would let it happen or condone it.
Yes, it sucks that some atheists are always going to be rude assholes about it. Sometimes that’s a stage people go through to get past hurt from people and return to faith later on in a different place with different people. But there are always assholes in general, their faith or lack of isn’t what makes them one or more likely to be one. There are always people that want to come across as superior or are so insecure, they just want to jump on a side and act superior. It happens in fandoms, it happens with vegans, it happens with animals, it happens with science. It happens with everything. There is always someone who wants to stand on a pedestal and say they know the most and are the smartest, regardless of whether they are or not (often they are not) and express views that are horribly uninformed because there are just people like that and it doesn’t have anything to do with what they are talking about, so much as it does with themselves and the kind of person they are.
Atheism is every bit as diverse on the asshole to saint scale as religious people.
You’ve got your Stalins and your Einsteins.
Yeah. This.
Religious people claim atheists lump all of them in with fundagelical hate preachers and in the next breath blatantly straw man atheism and lump all of us in with Angry White Bigot Atheists.
On the other tentacle, atheists claim religious believers all lump them into the one basket, then in the next breath blatantly state that everyone who professes a faith in a god (pretty much any god, although some make exceptions for pagans) is exactly the same as an American Evangelical Fundamentalist (which makes about as much sense as claiming that, say, all of Islam is represented by Wahhabism, or that anyone who studies physics must necessarily believe in the idea of four fundamental elements to the universe).
The sword cuts both ways, and neither strawman is accurate.
It’s a thing that humans do. Sadly.
A lot of it is just that the atheists you tend to notice are the ones making a big fuss about it. Those are more likely to be obnoxious.
Most of the rest just don’t bother talking about it much, unless there’s some specific reason it comes up.
I mean, my lack of belief in God isn’t really a huge part of my daily life. I just don’t believe in God. That’s pretty much it. Doesn’t take much effort. I’ve put thought into it from time to time, but it’s not really a huge focus. I’ll mention it occasionally in online discussions – like this one, but other than that, I doubt most people I interact with casually would know.
I suspect the same is true of most atheists (or agnostics, or other forms of non-believers.)
There’s sort of a parallel with Christians and the religious Right – those are the loud mouth asshole types that make a big fuss and want everyone to think they’re the only real thing. On the Christian side though there are a lot of people who are casually identifiable as Christian, even if they don’t fuss about it. They might wear a cross or something. They probably go to church and you might see that or hear it mentioned.
I want to respond to that with — as a Christian, I have seen a *ton* of Christians respond to any criticism of organized Christianity or Christian culture as “they’re just lashing out” or “they’re just bitter”.
So I don’t have a lot of respect for the idea that atheists who speak up are just lashing out.
There are things in my religion I still find valuable, but there is also a LOT of very, very valid criticisms for people to make. We’ve done a shit-ton of harm, and it is hypocritical in the extreme for someone to claim to be a Christian, but to refuse to own the pain that Christians have inflicted.
I’m real tired of seeing “am I my brother’s keeper?” from Christians, just let me say that.
I know I say this a lot, but I really want to see Dorothy’s face during all this.
Becky’s unknowingly undercutting her own case that Joyce should be expected to be past this “bitter phase” by now. Becky’s had a lifetime to learn to adjust, hide, strengthen certain walls, manage expectations and develop coping mechanisms for her trauma. Joyce, by virtue of her circumstances and nature, has lived in a bubble of fantasy. So many pillars of her lifelong world view have come crashing down at once in horrible ways. Becky is able to trust herself and what she knows a lot more than Joyce can right now.
Of course I could be misinterpreting Becky’s intentions here, and she’s just trying to help Joyce gain perspective because Joyce is simply overwhelmed by what she’s dealing with due to being new to her revelations. But from Becky’s previous words I’m sensing more lashing out because she didn’t like what Joyce was saying or how she was saying it.
“You’re being a bummer”
-Every person I ever interact with while in the middle of a depressive episode.
Maybe pretend like she’s your best friend, Becky, and understand why she’s hurting instead of lashing out because she didn’t give you the answer you were hoping for?
“Crashing the plane”
As a former evangelical fundamentalist, it’s rather difficult to say “okay, some of my ideas are BS, but these ideas that do better with a larger demographic are okay”. What is the means of determining actual good things to believe in, from BS. It’s not faith, faith was what had us believing in BS to begin with. And where’s God in all this anyway. BS absentee Father lets his children run amuck, and can’t even give direction to His lost children. Maybe the simplest solution is the correct one. Despite how much we want God to exist, maybe He doesn’t.
That was my “thought journey” that led to atheism. On the flip side, Becky’s life has been turned upside down in a myriad of ways, and her faith is the primary tie to her old life, her deceased mother. I can understand why Becky would be looking for validation from Joyce, and feel frustrated that Joyce doesn’t appear to care what she does, especially after all the previous caring Joyce has shown. Also it may be a feeling of losing Joyce to Dorothy via atheism manifesting.
I empathize with Joyce in this case, even more so since we have knowledge of a certain bail that she doesn’t have. But they both have been through a lot, and can be forgiven for behaving outside expectations at times.
Converting from evangelism to liberal Christianity was a hard road for me. You have to see the sheer amount of mind control going on by evil institutions and also how contradictory the values expressed are to the revolutionary core of the faith.
To address your first point, I quote Robert Heinlein (speaking of flawed men):
“Sin consists in hurting other people unnecessarily. Everything else is window dressing.”
… And this is without knowing that their community raised funds to free Toedad. Or that this involved them teaming up with a mobster (my phone autocorrected that to “monster” which I don’t disagree with but wasn’t quite what I meant to write!)…
If they don’t divorce I’m not sure Joyce will ever speak to either of her parents again. Becky might end up being a temporary bridge between her and Hank before that time even…
I want to see Hank find out about this. That will be a web comic.
Joyce is going through a phase and it’s a necessary phase for her. I went through a similar phase when I realized my parents were bullshitting me about stuff.
Joyce has a personality similar to mine in that she doesn’t by nature nuance well. She has a tendency to black and white thinking. We have seen this before when she blew up about how if evolution is true everything she was raised on is a lie.
She has accepted a premise that something she was raised on is false. Which to her psyche means EVERYTHING was false. Furthermore she still has a bit of a childish belief that parents/adults are damn near omniscient. Therefore it doesn’t occur to her that her parents may sincerely hold wrong beliefs. Instead, the options are: these new truths she’s learning are lies, or every adult she ever knew and loved knew how awful and wrong their beliefs are and was lying to her.
So yeah she’s behaving like a butt. Largely because she’s processing 2 major traumas (she was sexually assaulted a couple weeks ago in story and recently had a gun held to her face by an uncle figure) while also processing a crisis of faith and processing the betrayal that goes with it to her thinking along with the fear of what happened with her older brother and to Becky when they challenged the status quo.
Joyce is a ball of anxiety and hurt right now and we know that she processes anxiety as anger (see punching scarface or charging after Toedad and punching him). She’s angry because anger feels powerful and anxiety feels paralyzing.
This doesn’t mean Joyce will become the angry atheist stereotype (though given how many goddamn double standards in favor of religious people there are in society I wouldn’t blame her – see also literally every commenter here lambasting Joyce for getting a little heated in questioning religion while simultaneously painting all atheists as immature ignorant children or angry assholes). What it means is that she’s scared and unsure of her future and questioning literally everything and everyone she was raised with.
Also note: Becky’s reaction is totally justified because Joyce just by implication called her dead (and by rose tinted past glasses, loving and decent) mother a bullshitting asshole and also called Hank the same.
When Hank, aside from Joyce, is literally the only supportive constant from Becky’s old life. And the only person who holds to Becky’s religious system who is supportive of her now that it seems Joyce is losing faith.
So… Yeah.
While I sympathize with Joyce, Becky’s reaction is totally justified from her POV.
Final note – Becky is a strong theist: she believes in a personal god who answers lesbian prayers, and this belief and mental relationship has been a source of strength and comfort for her throughout her ordeal. Joyce is basically calling Becky’s bedrock of her mental stability and resilience a steaming pile of bullshit. I happen to agree with Joyce here, but it’s no wonder why Becky responded poorly.
Final note:
Becky’s struggle has largely been her firm sense of self vs external forces.
Joyce’s has been figuring out who she actually is.
Becky’s been able to weather her situation mainly because she knows who she is and given a choice between being her authentic self and not being it, she generally chooses to be more authentic. Even at personal cost. All of Becky’s struggle has been against external forces who want her to be not who she is.
Joyce doesn’t know who she is. Either because she’s more of a people pleaser than Becky or because she never really had to think about it before going to university, Joyce has always defined herself by roles others have given her and not on any solid foundation. Joyce’s struggle has primarily been trying to figure out who she is and what she believes in. Joyce is basically trying to lay a foundation of identity after she already built her persona house.
And a lot of folks who have been in Becky’s shoes don’t get that being in Joyce’s can be just as painful, if in a different way.
All of this! Aaaaall of this! Like I am in agreement that Joyce’s take is both harsh and not what Becky needs to hear right now, and it’s going to be a ROUGH period until Joyce can reconcile ‘being a good person’ with ‘not staying in the religion she was raised in’ and coming to terms with the fact that she can do bad things but isn’t Irreparably Bad, but at the same time? Yeah, she needs the anger. She needs to process all this shit.
As ever, I want these girls to have a neutral third party to talk to.
100%agree
Yeah, Becky’s all “been there done that” for being angry about her upbringing.
The difference is, as far as Becky knows she’ll never see either of her parents again. She can box that part of her life up and leave it behind. Joyce is still tied to her family and hometown, and as far as she knows they’re still immersed in the culture she’s come to find toxic. At least some of her dread must be coming from anticipation of facing that world again.
Hadn’t considered that but yeah makes sense.
Uncertainty about whether a bad thing will happen is often worse to deal with than the bad thing itself.
Obligatory counterpoint that Hank IS a bee-essing bee-hole:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/squeezing-2/
“No, no, Joyce is strong, she wouldn’t be a LESBIAN.”
Not saying he’s not.
Saying that to Becky, Hank is the only parent figure who, given the opportunity to choose between loving her and preserving his status in the church, chose her.
True, and Becky never heard that exchange, too.
And her dead mother.
Becky’s mom never got the opportunity. Not through any fault of her own and as far as we can tell she was loving and would have made the right choice. But she died well before Becky was outed.
She didnt uphold the status of their chur h by the very nature of suicide.
There are people who say homosexuality is a phase, Becky
Being gay is part of someones nature.
Being a jerk is a phase, because after three hourse of moping you realize “OH SHIT… I could have done something better.”
That people wrongly say that, doesn’t mean that people don’t actually go through phases. Not homosexuality, but plenty of other less fundamental things.
This particular kind of lack of faith is almost certainly a phase. Quite possibly a necessary one for Joyce. She’ll need to find some kind of balance on the other side. Maybe back to a healthier form of religion. Maybe to a less cynical atheism.
Sometimes it goes the other way around. You realize that yes, pretty much the entire thing is based on false premises, and THEN you become angry.
It’s only tempered when you realize that the people who BSed you only did so because they themselves were usually BSed all of THEIR lives. By people who were BSed to. By people who were BSed to… And so forth all the way back to the First Lie: “If you eat from the Tree of Knowledge, on that day you will surely die.”
It’s Be-Essin B-holes all the way down.
That’s how it was for me.
I suspect that’s what Joyce is experiencing even if it’s not what she’s saying.
To (somewhat ironically) play Devil’s advocate . . . it can be argued that had Adam and Eve remained in the Garden of Eden (and ignorant), they would have been immortal. So eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge DID lead to their deaths.
Not the same day, though.
Though I guess God was saying, in effect “you are dead to me” when he threw them out.
Your feelings have no relevance Joyce!
Just and only wish to say, on days like today; I miss Cerberus’ analyses. And that Very much.
As Mr. Anderson sang: I’m living in the past.
Did they quit the comic?
I don’t think so – iirc, people with Patreon say Cerberus is still a regular there. It’s just that sometimes the non-Patreon discussion gets triggering for her, so she has made her participations here rare. I also forget which comment/situation made her have to retreat for her own health.
She still comments from time to time, and I don’t know if she still reads these comments regardless. In case you do, Cerberus, I hope everything’s well with you and you’re taking care of yourself.
She’s been on Patreon, yeah. Just life stuff in the way, IIRC. She gets busy.
Like the strip is obviously setting up Becky as being in the right here but I feel they’re BOTH screwing up here so that bothers me.
Becky says, “Our parents” I wonder if she has started to think of Hank as her actual father since he accepted her when her own father well, was a Toedad.
Grammatically, saying “our parents” can refer to Becky saying separately their issues with their own specific parents.
Honestly kind of a dick response to someone going through a crisis. I get that Becky has gone through A LOT and is still going through it, but she doesn’t need to be dismissive of what Joyce is going through (especially since when she showed up on campus, Joyce immediately supported her). I like Becky, but she really bulldozes through people’s feelings in a way that reminds me of bad relationships I’ve been in before.
And Joyce doesn’t have to be dismissive of what Becky’s going through either. Her response wasn’t “Hey, you do you, go make out with your girlfriend if you want, God won’t judge you because maybe He’s not there,” it was “It doesn’t matter. Life is pain. Everything is bleakness. There’s no point to caring about anything. Hand me the eyeliner and black hair dye. Eat Arby’s.”
No, no it was not. Saying “Hey, they lied about everything else, why not sexual purity?’ is not the same thing as saying ‘there’s no point to caring about anything’.
Joyce isn’t being dismissive of what Becky is going through. Becky asked a question and Joyce gave her an on-point response. That Joyce was also angry, blunt, and casting everything of her upbringing under the same bitter, overly harsh light is what set Becky off. Joyce took Becky’s question and its implications totally seriously.
One of my life rules is that your belief system should never require you to lie, even if it’s a lie by omission. This is what the parable of the boy who cried wolf was made for, when you lie, it makes people not trust you even when you’re trying to tell the truth.
It is my belief that you should lie when it protects innocent people. Dear Hitler, there are no jews under my floor boards.
The plot twist, of course, is that they’re all huddling in the attic.
In winter sure, but in summer that in and of itself would be a death sentence here. Not thay cruel.
Never lying is a mistake for that reason, but trying to set up things so that nobody should have to lie is better. If you can build an ethical world it shouldn’t have Nazis in it anyway. (I’m still amazed ours does.)
In this one conversation I feel like Becky’s being worse.
The thing is nothing Joyce is saying is wrong just a combination of poor timing and put badly.
But 90% of what their parents pushed was crap Joyce is just realizing this now and, sexual purity, I can see some practical arguments for it but its not really something I can justify pushing on anyone who I’m not dating.
I’m saying that as a Christian.
Becky is sort of telling Joyce she is not entitled to her own opinions and feelings, and the sad thing is Becky has been telling herself she’s not entitled to share her problems and visibly feel miserable for a while.
The thing is from Becky’s position is she came to Joyce for advice and got her own problem dump instead, and she went through all this dealing with the fact that 90% of what they were taught was a lie alone because nobody was safe when she started questioning.
if you have to discover, on your own, that the central questions of life as a human being are ACTUALLY NOT SIMPLE, then it is absolutely true that your parents have failed you in a major way.
Certainly Joyce has lived a much less painful life than Becky to this point, but you know, Ross’s behavior might be the product of his evident intellectual and emotional shortcomings. Good ol’ Hank knew better- what he did was _deliberate_. which distinction might be completely irrelevant, but it might be seen as quite important.
The fact that Joyce’s life has been a lot less painful than Becky’s up to college is exactly why the trauma of the past few weeks has been even worse for her.
Becky is dealong with her personal issues, and has figured out the basics a while ago, but Joyce is still dealing with some fundamental truths being… shaken.
Becky’s dealt with this.
So I’m not sure if she’s mad about HOW Joyce is handling it, how JOYCE is handling it.
Or if she’s mad at how Joyce handles it when she has . support system Bwcky didn’t.
I think Becky’s just pushed to her breaking point. She’s had an incredibly tumultuous month but has maintained a chipper outward persona. Even with her considerably advanced tolerance for this sort of thing, I would say this latest sexy revelation pushed her to the edge of strong feelings she can handle.
Similarly, Joyce is heartbroken, so she isn’t in an emotional state to give advice.
I just really hope this doesn’t turn into a days long (in universe) therefore months long (in real time) issue… Their friendship will be fine in the long run but it might hurt to watch them fight for a long time.
I think Becky was probably hoping Joyce would be more supportive, but Joyce is in the middle of a crisis of faith, and didn’t think of the best answer, which should probably be something along the lines of: “This is a choice only you can make, Becky, but I’ll be here for you no matter what.”
They’re both in the awkward at the moment ayep ayep.
Interesting that Becky gets to decide that homosexuality isn’t a sin contrary to her being taught but still internalizes that sexual purity is a thing that is still right. But, Becky gets to decide that homosexuality isn’t a sin based mostly on a selfish desire. The selfish fact that she desires other females.
Admittedly, that’s phrased in a provocative way, but is it really wrong? Apparently doubt and faith have their break even point around where something is intrinsically part of you like homosexuality. However, something that is something you choose, like sexual purity, is fair game for religious pursuit.
Well, yeah, religious systems are chosen values. They’re not inborn, though some are culturally exclusive.
One is about who you are. If she was made in the image of the Lord then He made her gay. The other is about how you choose to act and what you choose to do. Reconciling one while struggling with the other (especially with a sliding timescale meaning that gay marriage was legalised when she was in her mid-teens and possibly working out that she likes ladies and all the stuff they taught about not getting physically close with a guy seems weird because *what attraction?”) doesn’t seem particularly odd…
Joyce is having a crisis of faith and familial trust, and maybe an existential crisis. I dont think that’s a phase, other than life being a phase that eventually ends
Joyce’s attitude is stemming from her self loathing and hurt, not to be a bitter smart ass so I hate how Becky is treating this. Her friend is possibly depressed and she hasn’t so much as asked her how she’s doing.