When referring to a person, it is gendered. It’s never had quite the same social connotation, and it’s been falling out of use the past couple decades, but it’s basically a male equivalent to “slut” or alternatively “pervert” but it also vaguely and insidiously implies the subject of the insult is predatory about their sexual endeavors, because they’re being compared to a hound dog hunting prey.
Dogs are often coded/motiffed/themed/characterized/etc as masculine by default. They’re ‘mans best friend’ and also ‘men’.
“bongo” is a notable exception because it refers specifically to dogs with vaginas which causes the term to be gendered femme, but it’s still an exception.
Agreed. I often have to resist the urge to make such comments. I resist because they no longer seem in-vogue and I don’t want to make my occasional rereading of the entire comic too obvious by using outdated memes.
Meanwhile, on an entirely unrelated note… this is one of those comics that makes me want to search the house for hidden cameras. While I did not use those EXACT words, my wife and I had almost the same interaction as panels 4 and 5 this morning. Of course, considering the buffer, I would need to look for hidden cameras that can also transmit data back in time.
But if King Daniel only suggested it because Willis based a comic on a conversation relayed by a hidden time camera which you sold to Wiilis because King Daniel suggested it, then that means … Um. Did I have a point?
I keep making faaaace comments, but that is because I like beating dead horses long past the appropriate time, and am trying to determine how long it takes to make it funny again.
I figured she was upset because it’s too fast for walk y to be dating, but not too fast to initiate a new romance that could realize itself later after the mandatory mourning period she seems to believe in
And huh, neat take from Ruth. No wonder she’s never used that word. I was initially surprised, but in hindsight I shouldn’t have been – Ruth’s always been fairly sensitive to slurs and things of that nature.
To be fair though, in this context she’d be using bongo to describe Walky so wouldn’t it not be a genedered insult by using it in that context? In a similar way, if I were to call Billie a dick, would that be a gendered insult, since dick is usually an insult predicated on being male. In addition, would you say Dick is a worse word than shit? Because you indeed cannot insult a turd but you could insult a man. However, at the same time, If you were to call someone “a piece of shit” then contextually you are likening them to a turd, which would be pretty insulting, since they are in fact a human.
Of course then you have the instances where much like [N-Word], [B-word] has been used as a term of endearment. Of course it still has a negative context, but in contexts like this, a black person in the former situation would probably be more justified to use the [N-word]. Likewise Joyce would be more accepted using [B-word] since she wouldn’t be using it from a supposed position of power or privilege (as far as we know), which seems to be the main context through which people do not like it being used. Of Course in this observer’s opinion I’d still say it’s a pretty harsh insult for a guy you just tried to set up with the girl you’re now mad that he was already dating.
The truth is that words only really have as much meaning and power as we give them. I personally think the intent is always more important than the word behind them. The b-word for example is often used professionally despite being adopted as an insult. I’d say alone it’s no more offensive than any other word, but the history behind its derogatory use is.
All words only have the meaning we give them. Money also has no meaning outside of our own intepretation. It’s crazy to think about how much of our word is fictional. Borders don’t exist. We just made all that up.The Boss was right
It gets more awkward when you actually LIKE certain words that have a negative history to them. For example, I’m of Asian descent, and since young I have always, ALWAYS loved the word “oriental”. It sounds exotic and mysterious (not to mention that I loved the AD&D Handbook “Oriental Adventures”, read it cover to cover dozens of times), so imagine my surprise when I discovered that apparently it’s a slur against Asians in certain countries. I mean, it wouldn’t bother me one bit if somebody called me an oriental (I’d probably love them for it!), but I can understand how somebody else with a different upbringing might find that really upsetting.
So yeah, long story short, I think the intent behind the words is more important. It’s similar to how friends can jokingly call each other all manner of derogatory names yet know that there is no venom behind them.
Yes, the b-word literally means ‘female dog’. Calling a man that as an insult doesn’t make it not gendered insult. The gendered bit is in the meaning. It’s like the swear word equivalent of calling someone a girl as an insult.
As for dicks, well, for one not only men have them and for another there’s a long history of misogynistic oppression based on perceived connection to female genitalia, while phallic symbols are often used as symbols of power. There’s not quite an equivalent history there, so far as I know.
Thank you for the “not only men have them” bit. I was about to chime in with a “not all men have them,” but I’m glad to see someone else already made that point. (And I agree about the distinction between the two words.)
I mean, I feel like the technical term of a word is unimportant in this context. As language evolves, of course, the root of the term becomes unimportant to how the word is currently used. In a similar fassion literally can both mean “Literally” and “Not at all literally” depending on who is saying it and the context they use it. So shackling the term to its root in that way seems presumptuous. However within that, obviously all words have histories with their use and every word means something else to everyone. When it comes to language there’s two things one has to take in count. The interpretation of the word by who used it, and the interpretation of the word based on who is hearing it. In that Vein, I’d say [B-word] is one of the words that skirts that line between “gendered” depending on the context.
In the context Joyce is using it now (or avoiding using it rather), I must call into question if it’s being used in a gendered context. Is she calling him that because she’s calling him feminine? Or is she calling him a punk, as in he wussed out? Or is she using it as a generic rude thing to call him. Like a Dick, a jerk, a prick or an asshole. Because in the context she used it, I’m forced to assume the latter. And in that context the word is not “gendered”. In this specific instance, that is.
I think if you over analyze the context in this regard the insult might actually make less sense. Are “b*tches” as in female dogs known for their infidelity? Are they particularly disgusting? That’s mostly subjective and near impossible to come to mass consensus on when using the term in that sentence. Joyce would have been better off calling Walky a shit and doubling down because most people would agree fecal matter is unappealing at the very least.
You could say that. wussing out could certainly be used to call someone’s masculinity in question. While in the context I was using was calling his bravery and character into question. Which is an interesting example of the argument I was making in the first place. I never really interpret the phrase “wussing out” as meaning “effeminate”. But you interpreted it as me using it to mean that. The difference in my intention and your interpretation ended with this end result of dissonance between us.
You can’t just say context and change the meaning of a word when it’s still used the way I mentioned. Yes, swear words are used for emphasis or to express anger, but they still have their own meanings. Language hasn’t evolved so far that the meaning of this word has changed. Same for asshole, dick, prick, etc. We know what those words mean and why it’s still considered insulting. Just because a word is ‘generically rude’ does not strip it of meaning and just because the speaker doesn’t sit and think through the meaning of each individual word that is used.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. To be perfectly blunt, many of the English language insults commonly used here in the US have some level of gendered element to them and all the older ones “merely” imply one to somehow not be an able bodied white man oft enough also casting aspersions with inherent value judgements on the person’s mother. I personally prefer to not use pejorative terms when it can be helped… even if anger does at times lead me astray of my intentions.
I’m sure my opinions are already not very popular, but if you’d allow one more hot take. I often feel as if the use of bad words in contexts outside of their original actually helps rob them of their power. Words are fictional. They’re not real. We made them up. They are one of the few things we have some semblance of control over. Similar to the idea of taking away the power of [N-word] by black people by taking it ourselves. Of course that can’t erase the negative connotations have had, but I do find some joy in trying to redeem things that have been offensive in the past. After all, it is the people who hurt others that always seem to get to ruin things forever. Toothbrush mustaches, the manji, the concept of me liking fried chicken and watermelon. None of these things are inherently evil. Individuals just took these benign things and made them cruel. So I like the idea of taking cruel things and making them benign.
The use of those words by the people they are used against and not being used in the same pejorative sense sure. Women using “bongo” as a term of endearment between friends or queer men and women self-identifying as faggots or dykes (heck, queer itself is considered a reclaimed slur by many). But like the people who created those words as a means to belittle and beat down minority groups? No, they don’t get to reclaim them or use them.
Yeah, there is power in reclaiming words that hurt you, but that only works if its been used to hurt you or people like you (or, if a specific person says it’s okay in regards to them).
Seems there’s a point past which they should become broadly acceptable again. When the reclaimed usage is sufficiently dominant, that even people not in the group can be safely assumed to be using it positively.
Not sure I can think of any examples off hand though. Maybe “queer” is getting there?
I like that you brought up the manji as I feel it still can be used. The nazi swastika is very specific iconography. A manji tilted on its side to form a diamond inside a white circle with a red background. That’s the offensive symbol that has become so iconic. I’d argue that other interpretations (which are infinite) is not offensive. Just do an image seatch Bad people will try to claim these symbols because they’re popular, but they can’t claim imagination.
Gendered insults don’t stop being gendered insults when applied to a man instead of a woman. The concept of a gendered insult rests on the implicit unspoken (or spoken) societal assumption that one gender is considered ‘lesser’ than the other (I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out which is which). When this gendered insult is applied to a woman, it is to reinforce that she is a woman and therefore ‘lesser’. When this gendered insult is applied to a man, it is to ALSO associate him with women and to apply that same ‘lesser’-ness to him because he has failed to live up to masculinity in some way.
Now that is not to say that the b-word cannot be used positively. If a woman consciously makes the decision to claim the word for her own in an empowering manner, as with Billie calling herself Alpha B, I am not here to tell her no. But that is very much an individual matter, and doesn’t make others throwing it around thoughtlessly and/or maliciously suddenly not gendered either.
That makes sense. Though in that vein, would you argue that insults towards either feminine or other gender identities would be gendered but not ones that tend to be applied to males? In a similar way when people discuss racial insults, you assume insults that are for races other than Caucasians, despite there being lots of rude terms for all skin colors, cultures and races. Understandably there’s a different context between these based on privilege and history, but in the technical term, something that’s gendered or racial simply means something that applies specifically to a gender, regardless of aforementioned privilege. That said, I cannot be sure, as racism is said to only apply when there is a socioeconomic and systemic institution to it, as with sexism and classism.
I’m actually really into stuff involving words and language and what goes into the use of them, especially curse words. Especially since, as a 20-something I’m quite privvy to lots of obscenities.
I honestly cannot think of a widely-used insult in the English language that insults someone -for being male- in the same way that a variety of them insult someone -for being female-. While there are plenty of insults revolving around comparing someone to male genitalia, the thrust of the insult is that it is an obscene bodypart, not that it is a male bodypart. Butt-related comparisons are popular for similar reason, and only tend to be lesser than corresponding male-genitalia insults not because they’re more gender-neutral, but simply because butts are broadly considered less obscene than genitalia. For animal-based insults… More often the term for the male of a species is actually a compliment (e.g. ‘stallion’), but where it is used, it is based back to the male being the greater or simply default rather than lesser (e.g. ‘bullshit’ works better than ‘cowshit’ because the bull is bigger, stronger, more potent of fecal matter) (that is going to be a weird parenthetical if shit and/or bullshit is censored).
You can absolutely insult a man. You can insult men in general. You can hate men, specifically and/or as a whole. You can insult and hate white people, specifically and/or as a whole. You can insult and hate straight people, specifically and/or as a whole. You can spit the phrase ‘straight white male’ with such bitterness and vitriol that it may as well be a curse. But when you do that, you’re not tapping into the same “this is lesser” societal assumption built on a long and ugly history of oppression and dehumanization as the other way around.
There is nuance to be had in the debate whether using such words with different intentions chips away at or reinforces those figurative support columns. I do not claim to have an authoritative catch-all answer to that, except that the nuance only applies when one is approacing the question with thoughtful consideration, not when one shrugs it off because they just want to say a word.
Damn fool is a gendered insult. It isn’t intended as such, so it doesn’t invalidate Tan’s point, but the fact is that if someone was killed doing something so mind-bogglingly stupid it’s hard to wrap your mind around someone even thinking of it, it was a guy every time. No exceptions.
Technically, “*bongo*” is female and “son of a *bongo*” is male, but that distinction has been lost.
While there are far more insulting terms for women, there are some for men, though many have fallen out of use. Around WWII “wolf” was an insult. Horndog or hound dog are variants. Part of the problem is men regularly reclaimed various terms to give them positive implications. None of them stuck. (Maybe being a “Weinstein”? Might that stick?)
One that did stick was the granddaddy of them all “Motherf***er”. It used to be almost exclusively masculine. It is only in the past couple of decades that it has been regularly applied to all genders.
I note that whilst ‘son of a bongo’ as a compliment has attested use, similar iinstances of simply ‘bongo’ are so much rarer I would categorize them as nonexistent.
Not as a compliment, but reclaiming usage for the b-word (or the s-word) is known (for example, there is the feminist b-word magazine, create by b-word media, or the s-word walk).
Though I image when female friends are talking, ” you can be a real b-word” might be a compliment for not taking shit, but I wouldn’t recommend using it except between really good friends and always careful with tone.
Same. I’m trying to stop using them in my everyday conversation. I’m not always very good at it because English isn’t very creative with their swear words, but it’s something that does bug me.
Since I’ve cut it out from my vocab, my epithets have either become much more creative and poetic, or turned into overusing “asshole”. There is no in-between.
I’ve replaced my usage of it with “gremlin” where applicable.
(I mostly use it towards myself, but then feel conflicted about that because of gender things and ideas of who gets to reclaim words and what reclaiming looks like. So saying of myself, “I’m a nosy b*tch” becomes “I’m a nosy gremlin.”)
I said it further up the comments, but it’s worth repeating here:
I personally prefer to not use pejorative terms when it can be helped… even if anger does at times lead me astray of my intentions.
In Spanish we have more slurs than Americans can think of. Some are funny to say with friends that aren’t serious about it, but others become annoying if they are said with the purpose of being an edgelord. Seriously, if I see another asshole saying “autistic” as an insult I am going to throw pie at their face… a pie with no sugar and sour fruits.
Yes, it is. It was worshipped by a renegade band of Aztecs who persued it though the early Americas and then throughout space and time, eventually giving up and settling down, interbreeding with Yeti. Their descendants survived long enough to influence the developing language of the indigenous peoples in what is now modern day Japan. Some of the old stories survived and a distorted version of them found their way into D&D Eternal Guardians. Willis’s knowledge and mention of these animals marks him as a likely Yeti descendant.
Joyce’s rebranding to bongo doesn’t remove the gendered nature of the insult. She’s using it as a censor but meaning exactly the same thing so changing the spelling and sound doesn’t help if you know what she means.
Which is not to say I don’t see the use of the comment filter, but in real life a rose by any other name smells as sexist.
I think Ruth’s meds might be working a little. Not necessarily for the smile which is nice, but panel 2. She rarely talks like that, with casually joviality instead of dry pessimism and irritability. It’s almost a joke, hell she might even be bragging. When was the last time she actually talked about herself that didn’t have to do with her depression or irritability? It’s rare.
I would argue that, in current common urban vernacular, this particular insult has ceased to be gendered and become a more generic term for those you regard as inferior to you and thus have no right to respect or consideration.
But it’s not used generically even it’s usage between men and women is gendered. You do not see men calling other men bongoes in the same context they would call a woman one because when it is directed at a man it is intended to deride their weakness/effeminacy whereas with women it’s usually a response to them being insufficiently accommodating of a man. When a man calls a women a bongo it’s not to denote she is inferior it’s to denote she is inferior and refuses to behave as such. When a man calls a man a bongo it’s to denote that he is behaving in an inferior (feminine) fashion and should be better.
Thank you well put.
Generally speaking
If you are calling a man a puppy you are saying he is too accommodating.
He’s such a puppy you know he does all the housework.
If you are calling a woman a puppy you are saying she isn’t accommodating enough.
She’s such a puppy she makes him do all the housework.
It can also be used to imply women in general are less than human or claim ownership of a woman.
Puppies need to be shown their place.
That’s my puppy.
Puppies am I right.
Something I just realized: the below-linked strip has, apparently, either had its URL changed manually or has had the site automatically change its title to “bongo”, as its publication predates the origin of the filter for said word.
Of course you can, but why would one swear word having a gender connotation make it more offensive than one without?
Frankly, I’d rather it be implied I was a dog of any sex than a stinking pile of excrement. Dogs are cute!
Following that thinking, in terms of their usage and implied meaning, “bongo” and “asshole” are synonymous, if most frequently applied to opposite gendered people. The implied meaning of either is that this person is mean to others unnecessarily.
Again, one is a doggy, and the other is a dark, wrinkly orifice that should never been seen in public, that has no function other than to excrete shite into the world.
…of the two, I’d still be less offended to be called the dog.
It tooks me years of fanfiction to realize that bemused was not a synonym for amused, and I’ve been a nerd about English since I could speak. I won a spelling bee once. Tldr don’t feel bad
i’m not sure what kind of point you’re going for here, but it sure sounds like you’re surprised that that insulting someone for their actions is different somehow from insulting someone for the circumstances of their birth
I wouldn’t say gendered is necessarily worse (and I certainly wouldn’t want to get into comparing gendered insults to racial insults or ethnic insults or orientation insults.)
Nor is it necessarily as simple as “for their actions” vs “circumstances of their birth”. Even “bongo” is not generally leveled at someone just for their gender, but for some aspect of their behavior – usually a negative gender stereotype.
The gendered insults often do carry extra baggage, since the whole gender is implicated in the insult. Consider common insults to men that compare them to women. Even “you throw like a girl”, which has no bad words attacks a man by implying he’s like the inferior women.
I gather from many comments above that deliberately mispronouncing tsundere as “sun deer” is a joke, and the suggestion to say it out loud suggests it is a pun.
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petition to make “hound” an offensive term also?
I mean, fair’s fair
I’m not sure the kind of social engineering necessary to make an innocuous term offensive is either ethical or practical.
Ethical? Nah. Practical? We’d just need to convince Donald trump to say it a few times
There’s another Autobot who needs to change his name and attend sensitivity training.
Luckily, I hear Slug has started a support group.
Also a character of mine but who cares about him
So Hound of the Baskervilles wouldn’t actually refer to the dog? I could see it.
I can’t see that without thinking of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIYRFvQMh7A
Hound isn’t gendered, though. It’s a certain class of breeds.
When referring to a person, it is gendered. It’s never had quite the same social connotation, and it’s been falling out of use the past couple decades, but it’s basically a male equivalent to “slut” or alternatively “pervert” but it also vaguely and insidiously implies the subject of the insult is predatory about their sexual endeavors, because they’re being compared to a hound dog hunting prey.
Dogs are often coded/motiffed/themed/characterized/etc as masculine by default. They’re ‘mans best friend’ and also ‘men’.
“bongo” is a notable exception because it refers specifically to dogs with vaginas which causes the term to be gendered femme, but it’s still an exception.
That would be “cur”, which is the gender-flipped version of bongo.
And honestly, it’s one that probably should be brought back.
I don’t think “cur” is gendered. It’s more “mutt” or “mongrel”. Used as an insult, it has more classist implications, I think.
She wants that grumpy faaaaaaace.
And in response Ruth has what is allllmost a 🐱 smile. It may be the cutest thing she’s done on-screen.
Man, been ages since I saw a “faaaaaaace” comment. I missed them.
Agreed. I often have to resist the urge to make such comments. I resist because they no longer seem in-vogue and I don’t want to make my occasional rereading of the entire comic too obvious by using outdated memes.
Meanwhile, on an entirely unrelated note… this is one of those comics that makes me want to search the house for hidden cameras. While I did not use those EXACT words, my wife and I had almost the same interaction as panels 4 and 5 this morning. Of course, considering the buffer, I would need to look for hidden cameras that can also transmit data back in time.
I can guarantee I didn’t sell Willis any of those for $29.99 each.
You didn’t, but will you?
I can guarantee I wasn’t gonna until you suggested it.
But if King Daniel only suggested it because Willis based a comic on a conversation relayed by a hidden time camera which you sold to Wiilis because King Daniel suggested it, then that means … Um. Did I have a point?
Remember who it is we’re talking about here. The passage of time is irrelevant even if it interferes with the plot!
Then WHO WROTE BEETHOVEN’S FIFTH
I always heard it was Shakespeare.
*electric guitar theme*
I keep making faaaace comments, but that is because I like beating dead horses long past the appropriate time, and am trying to determine how long it takes to make it funny again.
She’s not wrong…
So the problem is that Joyce assumes Walky was already dating Amber before he broke up with Dotty, right? She’s not mad about him rebounding too fast?
That’s my interpretation, but who knows? It’s Joyce.
I figured she was upset because it’s too fast for walk y to be dating, but not too fast to initiate a new romance that could realize itself later after the mandatory mourning period she seems to believe in
You would have been fine with “The problem is Joyce”
But then how would you have expressed your hate?
How dare he move on from the perfection that is Dorothy so fast on his own!
You gotta factor in how she feels about the individuals.
I’m pretty sure it’s that Walky ‘lead her on’ by not informing her, in advance of her matchmaking attempt, that he was already dating her.
Could be. Or it could be some absurd train of thought that is unique to Joyce’s bizarre brand of moral reasoning.
RUTH IS SMILING WITH HER EYES FULLY OPEN
IT’S BLINDING US HISSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Wither the “whelp”?
Today’s strip is sponsored by the Commode Warrior:
https://hobby.dengeki.com/news/680071/
Is he a Maxiloo or a Deceptijohn? I don’t know.
Somehow I’d be disinterested if it weren’t for the toilet paper.
What is its purpose? I can’t figure it out, but I need to know…
…I didn’t know I needed this figure in my life. Now, I understand why everything felt hollow, lately.
tsundere mo’ like tsunDAT ASS
Tsunderrier…?
this guy gets it
Actually, a Sundeer is type of boat. The alt-text just called Billie a yacht!
I normally quite like Amber but that look on her face in the slipshine link is really, really creepy
It’s a little like the smile she had just before she carved Ryan up like a turkey.
Billie can pretend to hate nerdy all she wants but but apparently is sometimes nerdy is enough to catch her fancy.
She’s a closet nerd, alright.
Awwwww, Billie is a goober.
And huh, neat take from Ruth. No wonder she’s never used that word. I was initially surprised, but in hindsight I shouldn’t have been – Ruth’s always been fairly sensitive to slurs and things of that nature.
Walky’s stupid face, she smooshes. Ruth’s stupid face, she smooches. Sounds legit to me!
Ruth as an English major makes so much sense *sobs in nineteenth-century realism*
I thought it was pronounced-
wait is that the joke
Oh… I get it. 😏
Talk nerdy to me.
God, Ruth’s face in the last panel is great.
Yes, it is.
Walky is a total drum,
and bongo is its name-o!
B-O-N-G-O
B-O-N-G-O
B-O-N-G-O
And bongo is its name-o!
(sorry if someone else already did this, I haven’t been following the comments section over the last few days :-P)
To be fair though, in this context she’d be using bongo to describe Walky so wouldn’t it not be a genedered insult by using it in that context? In a similar way, if I were to call Billie a dick, would that be a gendered insult, since dick is usually an insult predicated on being male. In addition, would you say Dick is a worse word than shit? Because you indeed cannot insult a turd but you could insult a man. However, at the same time, If you were to call someone “a piece of shit” then contextually you are likening them to a turd, which would be pretty insulting, since they are in fact a human.
Of course then you have the instances where much like [N-Word], [B-word] has been used as a term of endearment. Of course it still has a negative context, but in contexts like this, a black person in the former situation would probably be more justified to use the [N-word]. Likewise Joyce would be more accepted using [B-word] since she wouldn’t be using it from a supposed position of power or privilege (as far as we know), which seems to be the main context through which people do not like it being used. Of Course in this observer’s opinion I’d still say it’s a pretty harsh insult for a guy you just tried to set up with the girl you’re now mad that he was already dating.
The truth is that words only really have as much meaning and power as we give them. I personally think the intent is always more important than the word behind them. The b-word for example is often used professionally despite being adopted as an insult. I’d say alone it’s no more offensive than any other word, but the history behind its derogatory use is.
All words only have the meaning we give them. Money also has no meaning outside of our own intepretation. It’s crazy to think about how much of our word is fictional. Borders don’t exist. We just made all that up.
The Boss was rightThere are still some Borders left, even though the ones near me have all closed…Oh you mean…Darn capitalization caught me again.
It gets more awkward when you actually LIKE certain words that have a negative history to them. For example, I’m of Asian descent, and since young I have always, ALWAYS loved the word “oriental”. It sounds exotic and mysterious (not to mention that I loved the AD&D Handbook “Oriental Adventures”, read it cover to cover dozens of times), so imagine my surprise when I discovered that apparently it’s a slur against Asians in certain countries. I mean, it wouldn’t bother me one bit if somebody called me an oriental (I’d probably love them for it!), but I can understand how somebody else with a different upbringing might find that really upsetting.
So yeah, long story short, I think the intent behind the words is more important. It’s similar to how friends can jokingly call each other all manner of derogatory names yet know that there is no venom behind them.
That’s distressing. If oriental has become a slur, then I may owe some apologies. Not many, many, but still distressing.
Yes, the b-word literally means ‘female dog’. Calling a man that as an insult doesn’t make it not gendered insult. The gendered bit is in the meaning. It’s like the swear word equivalent of calling someone a girl as an insult.
As for dicks, well, for one not only men have them and for another there’s a long history of misogynistic oppression based on perceived connection to female genitalia, while phallic symbols are often used as symbols of power. There’s not quite an equivalent history there, so far as I know.
Thank you for the “not only men have them” bit. I was about to chime in with a “not all men have them,” but I’m glad to see someone else already made that point. (And I agree about the distinction between the two words.)
I mean, I feel like the technical term of a word is unimportant in this context. As language evolves, of course, the root of the term becomes unimportant to how the word is currently used. In a similar fassion literally can both mean “Literally” and “Not at all literally” depending on who is saying it and the context they use it. So shackling the term to its root in that way seems presumptuous. However within that, obviously all words have histories with their use and every word means something else to everyone. When it comes to language there’s two things one has to take in count. The interpretation of the word by who used it, and the interpretation of the word based on who is hearing it. In that Vein, I’d say [B-word] is one of the words that skirts that line between “gendered” depending on the context.
In the context Joyce is using it now (or avoiding using it rather), I must call into question if it’s being used in a gendered context. Is she calling him that because she’s calling him feminine? Or is she calling him a punk, as in he wussed out? Or is she using it as a generic rude thing to call him. Like a Dick, a jerk, a prick or an asshole. Because in the context she used it, I’m forced to assume the latter. And in that context the word is not “gendered”. In this specific instance, that is.
I think if you over analyze the context in this regard the insult might actually make less sense. Are “b*tches” as in female dogs known for their infidelity? Are they particularly disgusting? That’s mostly subjective and near impossible to come to mass consensus on when using the term in that sentence. Joyce would have been better off calling Walky a shit and doubling down because most people would agree fecal matter is unappealing at the very least.
“[A]s in he wussed out.”
That exact phrasing and it’s underlying meaning are explicitly negatively effeminizing.
You could say that. wussing out could certainly be used to call someone’s masculinity in question. While in the context I was using was calling his bravery and character into question. Which is an interesting example of the argument I was making in the first place. I never really interpret the phrase “wussing out” as meaning “effeminate”. But you interpreted it as me using it to mean that. The difference in my intention and your interpretation ended with this end result of dissonance between us.
You can’t just say context and change the meaning of a word when it’s still used the way I mentioned. Yes, swear words are used for emphasis or to express anger, but they still have their own meanings. Language hasn’t evolved so far that the meaning of this word has changed. Same for asshole, dick, prick, etc. We know what those words mean and why it’s still considered insulting. Just because a word is ‘generically rude’ does not strip it of meaning and just because the speaker doesn’t sit and think through the meaning of each individual word that is used.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. To be perfectly blunt, many of the English language insults commonly used here in the US have some level of gendered element to them and all the older ones “merely” imply one to somehow not be an able bodied white man oft enough also casting aspersions with inherent value judgements on the person’s mother. I personally prefer to not use pejorative terms when it can be helped… even if anger does at times lead me astray of my intentions.
I’m sure my opinions are already not very popular, but if you’d allow one more hot take. I often feel as if the use of bad words in contexts outside of their original actually helps rob them of their power. Words are fictional. They’re not real. We made them up. They are one of the few things we have some semblance of control over. Similar to the idea of taking away the power of [N-word] by black people by taking it ourselves. Of course that can’t erase the negative connotations have had, but I do find some joy in trying to redeem things that have been offensive in the past. After all, it is the people who hurt others that always seem to get to ruin things forever. Toothbrush mustaches, the manji, the concept of me liking fried chicken and watermelon. None of these things are inherently evil. Individuals just took these benign things and made them cruel. So I like the idea of taking cruel things and making them benign.
The use of those words by the people they are used against and not being used in the same pejorative sense sure. Women using “bongo” as a term of endearment between friends or queer men and women self-identifying as faggots or dykes (heck, queer itself is considered a reclaimed slur by many). But like the people who created those words as a means to belittle and beat down minority groups? No, they don’t get to reclaim them or use them.
Yeah, there is power in reclaiming words that hurt you, but that only works if its been used to hurt you or people like you (or, if a specific person says it’s okay in regards to them).
Seems there’s a point past which they should become broadly acceptable again. When the reclaimed usage is sufficiently dominant, that even people not in the group can be safely assumed to be using it positively.
Not sure I can think of any examples off hand though. Maybe “queer” is getting there?
In some places, yes, where it’s the dominant term for the LGBT+ community.
If that happens it’s stil a long way off seeing as you can’t even safely assume a straight person is using the word “gay” in an even neutral sense.
I like that you brought up the manji as I feel it still can be used. The nazi swastika is very specific iconography. A manji tilted on its side to form a diamond inside a white circle with a red background. That’s the offensive symbol that has become so iconic. I’d argue that other interpretations (which are infinite) is not offensive. Just do an image seatch Bad people will try to claim these symbols because they’re popular, but they can’t claim imagination.
Calling a dude a b-word is insulting him by calling him a woman. It’s meant to be emasculating. It doesn’t un-gender it
But what is the man is actually three female dogs in a trench coat?
I will admit I never before considered that possibility.
Then we should be applauding their dexterity and apparent command of the English language, not calling them names
Then they’re still not “a” b….
Gendered insults don’t stop being gendered insults when applied to a man instead of a woman. The concept of a gendered insult rests on the implicit unspoken (or spoken) societal assumption that one gender is considered ‘lesser’ than the other (I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out which is which). When this gendered insult is applied to a woman, it is to reinforce that she is a woman and therefore ‘lesser’. When this gendered insult is applied to a man, it is to ALSO associate him with women and to apply that same ‘lesser’-ness to him because he has failed to live up to masculinity in some way.
Now that is not to say that the b-word cannot be used positively. If a woman consciously makes the decision to claim the word for her own in an empowering manner, as with Billie calling herself Alpha B, I am not here to tell her no. But that is very much an individual matter, and doesn’t make others throwing it around thoughtlessly and/or maliciously suddenly not gendered either.
That makes sense. Though in that vein, would you argue that insults towards either feminine or other gender identities would be gendered but not ones that tend to be applied to males? In a similar way when people discuss racial insults, you assume insults that are for races other than Caucasians, despite there being lots of rude terms for all skin colors, cultures and races. Understandably there’s a different context between these based on privilege and history, but in the technical term, something that’s gendered or racial simply means something that applies specifically to a gender, regardless of aforementioned privilege. That said, I cannot be sure, as racism is said to only apply when there is a socioeconomic and systemic institution to it, as with sexism and classism.
I’m actually really into stuff involving words and language and what goes into the use of them, especially curse words. Especially since, as a 20-something I’m quite privvy to lots of obscenities.
I honestly cannot think of a widely-used insult in the English language that insults someone -for being male- in the same way that a variety of them insult someone -for being female-. While there are plenty of insults revolving around comparing someone to male genitalia, the thrust of the insult is that it is an obscene bodypart, not that it is a male bodypart. Butt-related comparisons are popular for similar reason, and only tend to be lesser than corresponding male-genitalia insults not because they’re more gender-neutral, but simply because butts are broadly considered less obscene than genitalia. For animal-based insults… More often the term for the male of a species is actually a compliment (e.g. ‘stallion’), but where it is used, it is based back to the male being the greater or simply default rather than lesser (e.g. ‘bullshit’ works better than ‘cowshit’ because the bull is bigger, stronger, more potent of fecal matter) (that is going to be a weird parenthetical if shit and/or bullshit is censored).
You can absolutely insult a man. You can insult men in general. You can hate men, specifically and/or as a whole. You can insult and hate white people, specifically and/or as a whole. You can insult and hate straight people, specifically and/or as a whole. You can spit the phrase ‘straight white male’ with such bitterness and vitriol that it may as well be a curse. But when you do that, you’re not tapping into the same “this is lesser” societal assumption built on a long and ugly history of oppression and dehumanization as the other way around.
There is nuance to be had in the debate whether using such words with different intentions chips away at or reinforces those figurative support columns. I do not claim to have an authoritative catch-all answer to that, except that the nuance only applies when one is approacing the question with thoughtful consideration, not when one shrugs it off because they just want to say a word.
Y’know I never thought about it like that. Pretty good point there about the animal thing.
Mansplaining is a gendered insult.
Anything you can mansplain, I can mansplain better. I can mansplain anything better than you. (See sun-deer below).
Damn fool is a gendered insult. It isn’t intended as such, so it doesn’t invalidate Tan’s point, but the fact is that if someone was killed doing something so mind-bogglingly stupid it’s hard to wrap your mind around someone even thinking of it, it was a guy every time. No exceptions.
Take it easy with the stretching, or you’re gonna get a letter from Disney.
Nah
Because it’s not an insult, it’s a fucking annoying behavior
Technically, “*bongo*” is female and “son of a *bongo*” is male, but that distinction has been lost.
While there are far more insulting terms for women, there are some for men, though many have fallen out of use. Around WWII “wolf” was an insult. Horndog or hound dog are variants. Part of the problem is men regularly reclaimed various terms to give them positive implications. None of them stuck. (Maybe being a “Weinstein”? Might that stick?)
One that did stick was the granddaddy of them all “Motherf***er”. It used to be almost exclusively masculine. It is only in the past couple of decades that it has been regularly applied to all genders.
I note that whilst ‘son of a bongo’ as a compliment has attested use, similar iinstances of simply ‘bongo’ are so much rarer I would categorize them as nonexistent.
That’s not accidental.
Not as a compliment, but reclaiming usage for the b-word (or the s-word) is known (for example, there is the feminist b-word magazine, create by b-word media, or the s-word walk).
Though I image when female friends are talking, ” you can be a real b-word” might be a compliment for not taking shit, but I wouldn’t recommend using it except between really good friends and always careful with tone.
“You Can’t Be Offensive to a Turd” for book title?
Boot camp drill sargents will agree with that sentiment.
Well okay, but I would argue that it’s possible for a turd to become very offended, particularly if you’re talking shit.
The English language is a wonderful thing.
You could compare it with the thing in the White House.
Even a cat turd on the X-mas breakfast table isn’t so bad as to deserve that comparison.
Woke up this morning, there was a juicy cat hairball on the breakfast table. Life imitates the comment section.
On a non-permeable spot of the table? That’s a win.
Can we hold out for ” I want to kiss your stupid grumpy face “
Keulen said it better further down.
☀️🦌
High five for Ruth. Honestly it’s kind of a pet peeve of mine how integrated a very gendered insult is in normal English vocab
Same here.
Same. I’m trying to stop using them in my everyday conversation. I’m not always very good at it because English isn’t very creative with their swear words, but it’s something that does bug me.
Also it’s kind of lazy in my opinion. Swearing in general is a conversational crutch for the uncreative….which is why I do it, but my point stands!
The perfect me swears less but insults the same or more frequently.
I dunno, I think calling someone a fucking shitweasel is still pretty creative. 😛
Since I’ve cut it out from my vocab, my epithets have either become much more creative and poetic, or turned into overusing “asshole”. There is no in-between.
I’ve replaced my usage of it with “gremlin” where applicable.
(I mostly use it towards myself, but then feel conflicted about that because of gender things and ideas of who gets to reclaim words and what reclaiming looks like. So saying of myself, “I’m a nosy b*tch” becomes “I’m a nosy gremlin.”)
I said it further up the comments, but it’s worth repeating here:
I personally prefer to not use pejorative terms when it can be helped… even if anger does at times lead me astray of my intentions.
In Spanish we have more slurs than Americans can think of. Some are funny to say with friends that aren’t serious about it, but others become annoying if they are said with the purpose of being an edgelord. Seriously, if I see another asshole saying “autistic” as an insult I am going to throw pie at their face… a pie with no sugar and sour fruits.
I am Mexican, not Spanish.
I love these two so much, I wish them all the happiness in the world and the strength to conquer their demons.
RE: ATL-TEXT: Isn’t a sun-deer an actual animal?
Yes, it is. It was worshipped by a renegade band of Aztecs who persued it though the early Americas and then throughout space and time, eventually giving up and settling down, interbreeding with Yeti. Their descendants survived long enough to influence the developing language of the indigenous peoples in what is now modern day Japan. Some of the old stories survived and a distorted version of them found their way into D&D Eternal Guardians. Willis’s knowledge and mention of these animals marks him as a likely Yeti descendant.
Joyce’s rebranding to bongo doesn’t remove the gendered nature of the insult. She’s using it as a censor but meaning exactly the same thing so changing the spelling and sound doesn’t help if you know what she means.
Which is not to say I don’t see the use of the comment filter, but in real life a rose by any other name smells as sexist.
I think Ruth’s meds might be working a little. Not necessarily for the smile which is nice, but panel 2. She rarely talks like that, with casually joviality instead of dry pessimism and irritability. It’s almost a joke, hell she might even be bragging. When was the last time she actually talked about herself that didn’t have to do with her depression or irritability? It’s rare.
i never loved ruth more
Sometimes those two are almost unimaginably sweet, aren’t they?
And then they had sex.
After second breakfast.
Well said, Ruth!
Dumbing of Age Book 9: I Hate Your Stupid Grumpy Face. I Wanna Kiss It
Yes!!!
Go kiss that face, Billie.
Less complaining, more smooching!
I would argue that, in current common urban vernacular, this particular insult has ceased to be gendered and become a more generic term for those you regard as inferior to you and thus have no right to respect or consideration.
I agree and I really like how ungendered it has become. Of course it isn’t always used as a pejorative, which is also fun.
But it’s not used generically even it’s usage between men and women is gendered. You do not see men calling other men bongoes in the same context they would call a woman one because when it is directed at a man it is intended to deride their weakness/effeminacy whereas with women it’s usually a response to them being insufficiently accommodating of a man. When a man calls a women a bongo it’s not to denote she is inferior it’s to denote she is inferior and refuses to behave as such. When a man calls a man a bongo it’s to denote that he is behaving in an inferior (feminine) fashion and should be better.
This is exceedingly well put!
* its usage
i am absolutely fucking terrible about using the proper its and theres and i’ve mostly just given up at this point
Thank you well put.
Generally speaking
If you are calling a man a puppy you are saying he is too accommodating.
He’s such a puppy you know he does all the housework.
If you are calling a woman a puppy you are saying she isn’t accommodating enough.
She’s such a puppy she makes him do all the housework.
It can also be used to imply women in general are less than human or claim ownership of a woman.
Puppies need to be shown their place.
That’s my puppy.
Puppies am I right.
It took me a minute to realize you were using puppy as a stand-in for the b-word and I was very confused.
Something I just realized: the below-linked strip has, apparently, either had its URL changed manually or has had the site automatically change its title to “bongo”, as its publication predates the origin of the filter for said word.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/bongo/
Hence why this strip’s URL is “bongo-2”.
LOL
Ruth’s depression became a 1000% more relatable in one line.
A sapphire English major… memories
Call the wee shite a bawbag and have done with it.
Willie the Groundsman sends greetings and felicitations.
I like your argument Ruth… except that Joyce is currently convinced Walky is being a turd and is giving him shit about it.
Or, put less glibly… She is actively engaged in being offensive to a person as we speak.
You can be actively offensive without using gendered swear-words.
Of course you can, but why would one swear word having a gender connotation make it more offensive than one without?
Frankly, I’d rather it be implied I was a dog of any sex than a stinking pile of excrement. Dogs are cute!
Following that thinking, in terms of their usage and implied meaning, “bongo” and “asshole” are synonymous, if most frequently applied to opposite gendered people. The implied meaning of either is that this person is mean to others unnecessarily.
Again, one is a doggy, and the other is a dark, wrinkly orifice that should never been seen in public, that has no function other than to excrete shite into the world.
…of the two, I’d still be less offended to be called the dog.
……………HOW did the usual B-word get auto-replaced with “bongo”? O_o
I did NOT type “bongo”!
I see from other posts it’s not just MY post.
Clever Dave. Clever.
*gasp* Tsoon-dare-ray!
Yes, we know. XD
Well, yes, but some of us had to actually say it several times before we got it.
Well, okay one of us did.
It was this comment thread that made it all click for me.
Everyone plays the bongo
DOOO EEEET
KEEEEESSS THE STUPID FAAAAAAAAACE
I think that Ruth is quite pleased that Billie wants to kiss her stupid grumpy face that she hates so much.
I would call that last panel a bemused in spite of herself face.
Bemused verb, past tense. puzzled, confused, or bewildered (someone). e.g. “her bemused expression”
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Quite right. Amused in spite of herself. Do you think I could get away with blaming it on autocorrect?
Always. 😉
It tooks me years of fanfiction to realize that bemused was not a synonym for amused, and I’ve been a nerd about English since I could speak. I won a spelling bee once. Tldr don’t feel bad
Is gendered the worst thing an insult can be? Is the mildest gendered insult necessarily worse than the most disgusting non-gendered insult?
If not, Ruth’s conclusion is a [i]non sequitur[/i].
* Gendered insults are bad.
* “Bongo” is a gendered insult.
* Therefore “bongo” is worse than “shit”.
Also, though you can’t be offensive to a turd you can be offensive to Walky.
No, but neither of those are racial slurs, so the point stands.
i’m not sure what kind of point you’re going for here, but it sure sounds like you’re surprised that that insulting someone for their actions is different somehow from insulting someone for the circumstances of their birth
I wouldn’t say gendered is necessarily worse (and I certainly wouldn’t want to get into comparing gendered insults to racial insults or ethnic insults or orientation insults.)
Nor is it necessarily as simple as “for their actions” vs “circumstances of their birth”. Even “bongo” is not generally leveled at someone just for their gender, but for some aspect of their behavior – usually a negative gender stereotype.
The gendered insults often do carry extra baggage, since the whole gender is implicated in the insult. Consider common insults to men that compare them to women. Even “you throw like a girl”, which has no bad words attacks a man by implying he’s like the inferior women.
I gather from many comments above that deliberately mispronouncing tsundere as “sun deer” is a joke, and the suggestion to say it out loud suggests it is a pun.
I have to admit I don’t get it.
YAS RUTH again
this is me with my boyfriend