I’m really impressed that Amber just said it straight out like that – just the facts, no color. I was really proud of her for telling Walky without trying to twist it into anything or blame Sal or other dishonesty. She just said it.
Agreed, the fact that Amber is telling Walky about the fight and stuff is great, but Joyce reading the fanfic is definitely the best panel of today’s strip.
There is quite a bit of racist subtext in Lovecraft’s work, especially given the openly expressed racism in his extensive correspondence. On the other hand, Lovecraft did seem to be moving in a less bigoted direction as he got older. Since he was fairly young when he died, it’s impossible to know where he might have ended up if he’d lived longer.
Not to mention in the actual text, as svata suggests. It was not only his actual cat’s name, but also a cat in one of his stories.
There’s another short story that’s essentially a racial slur disguised as a horror story. And other descriptions throughout.
Not just black people though – the stories are also full of fear and loathing of pretty much anyone who didn’t match his white, upper middle class background – southern and eastern European immigrants. Even the rural white New Englanders are often portrayed as decaying into subhuman monsters.
It’s possible he was changing, but it’s hard to say for sure. It’s a shame, because there’s a lot I like about his writing, despite how cringy much of it is. Probably helps that I first encountered it young and didn’t hit the worst parts until later.
No mention of “racism and Lovecraft” can be complete without mentioning the Red Hook story, which was ALL text. Also, loads of misogyny.
IF it helps, Lovecraft penned a letter in his later years (well, “later” considering how young he died) in which he admits his racism and condemns it. DOES it help? I dunno, and as a white dude I’m reasonably sure it’s not for me to say even if I did.
I’ve always found Lovecraft nearly unreadable, even setting the racism aside. He just wasn’t a good writer. I don’t think he ever described anything mystical without using the phrase “of curious design.” Not helpful, H.P.
And setting aside the racism is nigh impossible because it’s baked into the themes of basically everything he wrote. The Shadow Over Innsmouth is a bald-faced metaphor for race-mixing and how it’s an abomination. At The Mountains of Madness is about the horror of a primitive slave race overthrowing its much more civilized masters. Dude’s entire shtick is the fear of the other and outsider and by the other and outsider I mean non-whites he just uses space aliens as a metaphor.
If we want to keep it in-world, and ignore the actual writer to enjoy the funky funky monsters, we could reverse the causality, like, we’d pretend that humans are racist because they’re subconsciously afraid of the Ancient Ones and aliens n’stuff, rather than the other way around.
But yeah the real deal is the writer was a racist. Alas.
Like, The White Ape is pretty much the protagonist killing himself because he finds out that he’s descended of an African person who could pass as white.
I wonder how Walky feels about that night? We know Sal is kinda ok about it now (maybe). But since that kinda resolved itself now I’m wondering if the incident will disrupt Walky and Amber’s relationship.
Until recently it seems like Walky believed Sal was a criminal of sorts and possibly doesn’t know the full story of why and what happened that night. My guess is his opinion mostly aligns with what his parents think of the situation.
Agreed. Walky has historically not cared all that much about his sister; I don’t think he cared one way or the other nor was concerned about her getting arrested, stabbed, etc. (nobody but Sal herself, and POSSIBLY maybe Amber now, has ever seemed to think anything of the fact that she was stabbed in that incident). I don’t really see Walky getting upset at Amber over this. If anything, I think it would be more in character for him to side with Amber against his sister.
He’s been…SOMEWHAT more mindful of the lopsided treatment his sister’s gotten lately, but I don’t know how far I’d count on those bare inklings actually moving him to take sides with his sister against anyone else he felt affiliated with.
I wouldn’t say that he doesn’t care about his sister, it more seems like he doesn’t know how to approach her and so he doesn’t do anything to improve their relationship. Kind of like how he doesn’t know how to improve his grades (study) and so he ends up just avoiding the issue (skipping class) and it does nothing to improve the situation. Those two situations kind of parallel each other nicely.
That said – I notice how Walky’s immediate reaction to hearing they were in a fight is to assume it’s Sal’s fault, when the reality is they both agreed they wanted to fight. It kinda reminds me of how Sal was a little surprised (that’s the wrong word, but I’m studying right now and can’t think of it) that Joyce didn’t push back about her street fighting. Walky, this is one reason Sal didn’t like you at the start.
I blame the parents.
I have to wonder if he even initially knew about the stabbing. That’s not something we’ve ever had confirmation of before.
And good job Amber – now just maybe tell him the grades thing and you’re set! 😀 I mean, you should probably have the DID talk eventually if you plan to date a while, but you can work up to that.
Y’know, assuming he doesn’t dump your sweet ass after this.
Walky’s oblivious, but he’s not *that* oblivious. The giant stab wound on Sal’s hand would be pretty hard to miss. Unless you mean he wasn’t aware of the exact circumstances that caused her injury, but seeing as he knew about the attempted robbery and the injury appeared around the same time, he almost certainly figured the two events were linked.
If Walky’s parents didn’t take him to pick her up and forbade her to tell him, it is actually very possible he doesn’t know. Especially since he could figure any sort of her leaving the house for surgeries or physical therapy could be court stuff or juvie stuff.
I was just wondering if maybe part of his reaction is he didn’t know she got stabbed at all. She does wear gloves — if she was shuffled off by their parents right away, there’s a possibility there.
Or concealer, or a bandaid (both on the back; one doesn’t look at palms much anyway), the latter ostensibly for some other reason. But I also was kind of under the impression that they didn’t see her like, at all, since they sent her away.
They didn’t. Those character twitters Willis made had Walky straight up say that they haven’t seen her since they sent her away (he also wondered if she’d flog him a la Da Vinci Code). In comic, he also
A) Says he hasn’t spoken to her much since they sent her off.
B) Tells Billie they haven’t kept in touch and he expected her to find Jesus, not leather, suggesting he hasn’t actually seen her since then.
C) He doesn’t have her phone number or any way to get in contact with her when Billie is searching for her and, earlier, told Billie he’d kept tabs on Sal about as much as Billie had.
I t doesn’t even have to be that complicated. They both acknowledge they were never close. Walky thinks of Billie as more of a sister. Sal probably just never told him in that brief period before she was shipped off. And he only had his parents info to go by, Sal got arrested for robbing a convenience store. I doubt he even knows her true motives for it.
I agree he likely has no idea of the motive, but the major injury would be pretty hard to miss, unless he literally never saw her after the robbery. She never came home, parents never took him to the hospital, never even told him she was hurt.
Even by Charles and Linda standards, that seems extreme.
This reminds me of when Dorothy found out AG and Danny had broken up and she immediately assumed Danny had fucked up. I’m sure this in no way reinforces Emily’s theory that everyone keeps giving Amber passes she doesn’t deserve.
That says a lot more about Dorothy’s relationship with Danny than with Amber. It has nothing to do with that theory that is in literally every daily comment section.
Well, I think that the reason Walky jumped up to go scream at Sal was because he felt protective toward Amber because she’s his girl now. So I think he would have reacted that way toward ANYONE Amber said she’d gotten into a fight with. But, yeah, he assumes Sal’s the perp and that’s really sad.
Walky was mad at Sal for scaring Amber away. This played into his view that the world would try to take nice things away from him. Dorothy is already a casualty of reality, and then Sal chided Walky for moving on too quickly.
Acting that way to a stranger would be understandable, or someone he sort of knows but not that well. People are like that for better or worse they assume the ones they know and love are usually at least somewhat in the right until proven otherwise.
This is his sister and he knows both his girlfriend and sister can take care of themselves, and honestly he has no reason to believe Amazigirl didn’t pick a fight over underage drinking or something which while not great does not warrant that response.
I mean Amazigirl picking a fight over underaged drinking is a reason to tear into Amber for being a jackbooted thug just looking for an excuse. Underage drinking isn’t even “not great” it’s morally neutral and meaningless.
True, but honestly from Walky’s perspective it’d be like if Walky found out Sal fought DOROTHY. It’s easier to be mad at a family member than a cute girl who smooches your face.
It’s not a reasonable assumption though. He knows Amber moonlights as a violent vigilante there’s no real basis for this assumption he’s just being a shitty brother.
He doesn’t know that she moonlights a violent vigilante though, AFAIK he thinks of AG as a superhero who’s just kind of not as perfect as some other people (Dorothy until recently, those idiots at the DeSanto rally) think. Which is definitely part of the problem, he really just doesn’t know enough about Amber at all. All the more reason Amber needs to keep this conversation going!
I agree! But also I think part of the problem is that too many characters (probably not Walky, but others) in the comic don’t think that way and have given Amber/AG a free pass on shit that they really shouldn’t have.
There’s different cultural connotations around superhero and vigilante. Superheroes call to mind escapist fiction where it’s actually possible for individuals to apply justice equally and stop huge crises by themselves and protect people.
He knows Amber already stabbed someone, and was concerned she would do it again if she didn’t escape to the roof. And I’m pretty sure she told him this before she stabbed Ryan.
She also referred to Amber as her other self as Amazigirl.
I’ve heard some people dress up like superheroes and like help old ladies with their groceries or pick up trash or stuff which is actually legal.
That would be ideal, but how many people would actually do this in real life? And yes, “all the details” is an impossible thing, especially because everyone’s perception of the situation is different.
I don’t understand why people are ready to defend Walky on this. Imagine if he ran off before Amber finished talking. Ranting at his sister would’ve been just fine then? Walky was just ready with that snap decision and that’s not okay. I’m gonna give him credit he doesn’t deserve and say it’s their inherent sibling rivalry and not Walky being a douche.
He doesn’t have a reason to think it’s about him dating Amber though. Honestly I’d take ‘What happened’ or ‘Why?’ over ‘I have to go scream at my sister now’.
Well, there was that confrontation on the roof where Sal found out he was kissing Amber. Since he’s got no idea of any of the other connections between them, it’s a pretty reasonable assumption.
True, but it’s at least a potential source of conflict, rather than “Jeez Amber, why’d you attack Sal who you’ve never met and know nothing about, it couldn’t possibly have anything to do with me.”
But that’s also not even what anyone else is saying either. Walky doesn’t have any reason to believe that it was Amber attacking Sal or Sal attacking Amber, and if the only point of conflict he knows about was how Sal caught them on the roof but absolutely nothing happened, besides Amber getting freaked out and embarrassed (from his perspective), a much more reasonable reaction from Walky would be wondering how that would even come about. And even then, it’s really not at all reasonable to assume that Sal would start a fight with Amber over what happened on the roof, when all she did was mild disapproval.
Yup I’m guessing he is still struggling to break his pattern of thought from childhood where Sal is guilty until proven innocent. I don’t want him to dump Amber over this but I want him to know better than to blame Sal.
I definitely want him to dump Amber over the combination of this and her changing his grades against his express wishes. Especially since the only reason she’s even telling him this much is because she no longer has the option not to now that Sal knows.
I don’t understand people defending Walky on this either, and I would go so far as to say he is being a douche. He’s never considered Sal’s complaints about not being treated well by her own family and his default is to see her as a troublemaker regardless of what she’s actually doing.
Well, no, it’s like he found out Sal fought Amber. Who he knows moonlights as a superhero and gets into physical confrontations fairly often, unlike Dorothy, who is generally not aggressive in any way at all especially not physically.
I agree that it’s easier to get mad at family over romantic partners, but I think Walky would have had an even worse reaction had it been Dorothy considering she wouldn’t have stood a snowball’s chance in Hell in a physical confrontation.
I came here to say exactly this.
Walky is another character I’ve grown to dislike more as the comic went along (although he was never the kind of person I’d have wanted in my life in the real world).
I agree. He seemed harmless early on, but now it’s pretty clear he has a pattern of willful ignorance. I think his reaction is pretty consistent with his character, but it’s not a good response.
Eh, sibling relationships are tough even without parents fouling things up. They have no history of having each others backs. The last time Walky lived in proximity with his sister ended with her holding a knife to a random passerby’s throat, all in an effort to rectify whatever happened as a result of her last violent exchange. Also, the last time he saw her she was an absolute shit to him, so I can understand the conclusion jumping.
Joyce’s mind: “And the Bruce kissed Cla-What was that about stabbing a hand?- Oh nevermind. Where was I? Oh right, Clark touched Burce’s scared abs and…”
Sure you can, if he’s not there when her parents pick her up and they order her not to say anything. Or if Sal spent most of the time in the hospital between then and getting shipped off because a knife going through the hand is gonna require at least one surgery because based on her scar, it may have impacted bone, nerves, ligaments, joints, tendons and/or muscle.
I don’t think it would be excessive based on what we know of them for them to say something like ‘Don’t worry/bother your brother’. Again, assuming she came home between the hospital and being sent away.
I can see her parents deciding it would worry Walky. I’m not sure if they did tell him or not. Initially, I figured he knew on patreon (mostly because I don’t actually enjoy frothing rage) but then someone pointed out this doesn’t actually confirm he knew or not so now I’m wondering.
my first assumption when people “fight” is that they had a verbal disagreement of some sort. saying “we had a LITERAL fight” implies a more physical, violent fight. at least, that’s what i think!
Ianans, but I think she’s trying to say they didn’t fight with words, but did fight with fists and all they had. This being literal as in “not figuratively speaking”, whereas “actual” would be a word she would use to distinguish between something that looks like a disagreement/fight but doesn’t indicate the people involved actually dislike each other and being really angry with each other.
Saying ‘actual’ to me still leaves room for ambiguity on whether it was a verbal holding back nothing fight or a physical fight whereas saying it was a ‘literal’ fight establishes it as a physical fight.
First, I think Amber is right to get all this out in the open. It will be interesting to see how Walky handles it, but it is in any case healthy to make a clean breast of things.
Second, I was looking at the timeline, and what a roller-coaster ride this has been. Dorothy and Walky broke up on October 12 (in-universe), and the current strip is taking place (near as I can tell) some time around October 16-18.
Please let this result in actual consequences for Amber and not just be another instance where someone is unreasonably accommodating of her because she has plot armour.
It’s taken me until now to realise that panel 6 is Amber talking about her relationship with Sal. I dunno… Is being on the same roller-derby team the same as burying the hatchet?
Way back when I was a good little Christian in a secular college, I told myself it wasn’t wrong if porn showed up on my browser “by accident.” It was also still an “accident” as long as I only moved the scroll wheel and never clicked the mouse button. The first panel reminded me of this.
I rag on amber a lot but I’m proud of her here. She actually came out and admitted it without trying to avoid the subject. Now let’s just hope Walky is mad that his girlfriend stabbed his sister and she faces actual consequences
Though she kind of lost the option to hide it when Sal found out so I’m giving her partial credit at best not to mention she still hasn’t fessed up to changing his grades which is something he absolutely needs to know immediately.
I really, really hope not. I mean, for us it’s been a couple of weeks since Amber found out about Walky’s sister, for her it’s been… Two days. Maybe three? To come to terms with someone she cares about being the brother of someone who is a trigger for a lot of her emotional trauma. She wasn’t actively trying to hide the connection longterm or lie to him about it.
So him exploding on her helps who, exactly? Like, I feel like that would be entirely to punish Amber for something she already regrets and hates about herself. I can’t think of any reason to root for Walky getting mad at her unless your entire point is that you hate Amber and want to see her suffer.
I want to see Amber’s mistreatment of others have actual real consequences for her beyond her own ineffectual self-flagellation. I want for once her taking her issues out on the people around her to actually cost her something and not be met with forgiveness she has made no effort to earn.
Yeah, it really is disgusting. Because most of Amber’s “Mistreatment” of others is a direct result of intense and completely untreated psychological conditions exasperated by years upon years of abuse and trauma. All of which she is literally incapable of doing anything about because as a minor she wasn’t given the treatment she deserved and needed and as a college student resources for the mentally ill are extremely scarce and difficult to receive. And rather than approach that with any degree of empathy, you just want her to suffer for no good reason. Which reflects how real people with psychological conditions are treated on a daily basis.
Which might be forgivable if Amber did anything particularly absurdly abusive, but for the most part she just hasn’t.
She fucking stabbed someone who was unarmed and restrained and then stalked and harassed that person. She nearly got Becky and who knows how many bystanders killed with her reckless disregard for others’ safety. She threw a screaming, physically intimidating fit at Ethan for not expressing his sexuality in a way she felt appropriate. She routinely goes out and attempts to goad people into fights over petty crimes. Mental illness is not a get out of responsibility for your actions free card and Amber has made NO effort to address her issues in any remotely constructive way. She hasn’t told her mother about the problems she’s having, she hasn’t tried to hamper Amazi-girl’s activities in any way, she hasn’t even looked at the possibility of seeking treatment for even just her PTSD and anger issues through campus health services. She’s just buried her head in the sand and hoped it’d all just go away without her having to make an effort.
Stabbing people is not good. But Becky’s life was definitely already endangered. As Ethans best and closest friend she absolutely has a right to weigh in on such a monumental life choice, and screaming at homophobes isn’t something I consider in need of a comeuppance. The vigilante stuff is dicey, but we haven’t really seen her use excessive force yet. Amber has a very rough life, and made some questionable decisions, but I still am no rooting for bad things to happen to her.
Ummm… Yeah… Way to distort the facts to fit your own narrow argument. And let’s first of all establish that as fiction certain actions within this fiction will be fictionalized in order to fit into the fictitious fiction of this fictitious universe created, and so trying to create a real-world parallel is kind of silly. Specifically in regards to Amazigirl, who only vaguely follows the laws of physics and sense.
That said, arguing that she nearly got Becky killed completely ignores the fact that had she not gotten to Becky, Becky almost certainly WOULD HAVE DIED or have been TRAUMATIZED BY HER FATHER’S SUICIDE BY COP. Becky was in a closed environment with an armed man who repeatedly showed a complete lack of regard for her personal safety, was actively kidnapping her, and the police drove literally right past him. He was escalating, becoming more violent, and had no long-term plan. He became a fugitive the moment he violently kidnapped her on campus, would be chased by police, and repeatedly claimed he’d die for Becky if confronted by police. And the police, I might add, not so great at deescalation. Neither is Becky.
Now in the real world, would this stunt have worked? No, of course not. She had bulky suction cups on her, for goodness sake, and fucking caltrops. This isn’t a scene which was designed to make sense. Trying to relate it perfectly to the real world is like arguing that Batman should just invest in a better mental health system to reform his mostly mentally-ill criminals. Yeah, logically that makes perfect sense, but that isn’t a strike against Batman’s personal character because there has to be some suspension of disbelief in his existence in order for the story to exist. Even moments meant to be critical of his existence in-universe aren’t really designed to bring it completely in-line with reality. While Amazigirl exists in a closer-to-reality story, she is an element which is much closer to fiction. What she does isn’t possible, her resources aren’t real, and the plotlines she is involved in are far more exaggerated. So trying to relate her (Amazigirl, not Amber) to a character like, say, Joyce is pretty hard. Because while nothing Joyce does is really outside the realm of reality, Amazigirl… Is.
It’s also worth noting that Amber almost certainly has a form of DID in-universe. Which, while not accurate to our world, there is a distinct split between who is “Amber” and who is “Amazigirl”.
Secondly, on the stabbing, let’s start by pointing out that was about a half-decade ago when Amber was 13. 13 and freshly traumatized by a girl who had every opportunity to not hold her closest friend hostage with a knife, but chose to do so anyway. And had her trauma exasperated by her abusive father. She didn’t just decide to stab Sal for shits and giggles. Trying to remove context doesn’t make your argument look better, it just reinforces your bias. Both Amber and Sal were victims and abusers in that particular situation. Which, again, happened when they were little more than children.
Thirdly, she did not “Pitch a fit” about Ethan not expressing his sexuality in a way she approved of. She got angry because she thought Ethan was JOINING A CULT WHICH WAS TEACHING HIM TO HATE WHO HE IS. Particularly after she spent years helping him come to terms with his identity and personally receiving scorn because of it. She saw him, someone she was attracted to and who she was told “turned him gay”, trying to get involved with a Evangelist Christian girl who believes gay people go to hell. Someone who is a part of groups who literally torture gay people for the crime of existing.
I’m not saying flipping a table was the proper emotional response, but there’s a big difference between, “I want you to be gay and I’m throwing a hissy fit because you’re dating a girl” and “WHAT THE HELL??? WHY THE F ARE YOU TRYING TO JOIN A LITERAL CULT???”
Lastly, she learned to cope with trauma through fighting and self-harm. That was what her father taught her. She is lucid enough to realize that isn’t healthy, but seeking help is another hurtle entirely. I also think it’s pretty naive to assume that she is in a position to receive the help SHE needs (Depression and alcoholism, like what Ruth suffers from, is a completely different beast from what Amber experiences and Ruth’s grandfather is more economically established than Amber’s mother – who would ultimately have to pay for any treatments because mental health care almost certainly would not be covered by the tuition her father pays.) from the school – which would not be equipped to deal with her range of conditions.
Which returns me to my original point: This entire position seems to be rooted in a DEEP hate for Amber, a misunderstanding and distortion of her character, and a desire to see her suffer. It isn’t about healing, it’s about making her feel bad because you don’t like her.
@Classic Appa She screamed “The fuck it is!” at Ethan while flipping the table he was sitting at in response to him telling her whether or not he returned to the closet was his decision. In no world does anyone have the right to dictate the terms of a queer person’s coming out no matter their relationship and that goes doubly for some fucking yaoi fangirl who has no goddamn clue what she’s talking about or what being out actually entails.
@Tilt I’m not wasting my time reading that novella.
What you mean to say is you don’t want to be proven wrong so you’re going to ignore everything I said and still act like you have the moral high ground.
Also: As I pointed out in my post which you are too lazy to read, her concern was largely because Ethan was getting involved in what she (rightly) perceived to be a cult which taught that gay people are sinful and should hate themselves. And after spending years trying to defend him from that mentality was angry and concerned, as well as hurt because after being told she turned him gay by a family she’s known most of her life (Feeding into body image issues), he was forming a relationship with someone else. All of which are perfectly valid emotions, which weren’t expressed well but are still worlds away from, “Duh-ruh, she wanted Ethan to be gay and got pissy because he wouldn’t fuck guys like she wanted.”
No I just don’t care enough about whether or not some random stranger on the internet agrees with me to read and respond to all that shit. I have better things to do aka literally anything else.
And straight people don’t get to impose their opinions about queer people’s identities onto them. Straight people don’t get to express their negative feelings about queer people’s coming out or lack thereof by screaming at us and physically threatening us with violent outbursts. Fuck. Off.
If you have literally anything else better to do, I don’t see the point of responding, even if just to tell people to fuck off.
Also I’m queer and I agree with Tilt’s analysis of Amber’s reaction while also agreeing that Amber was in the wrong, because queer people aren’t a monolith.
Amber never expressed any fears Ethan was joining a cult, only that he was going back in the closet and Joyce, specifically, was teaching him to hate who he was. Also, Ethan came out after prom. Amber did not spend years defending him, she spent summer doing so. Yes, Amber’s allowed to be frustrated she thinks Ethan’s making a bad decision, and she’s allowed to be hurt he’d fake it with Joyce but not Amber (especially when Amber seems to have been VERY serious about Ethan – she felt like the two of them getting married would’ve been inevitable had Ethan been straight). That still doesn’t give her the right to flip tables and scream in his face about it. That is fucked up.
Also, wanting Amber to experience consequences for bad things she’s actually done is not unreasonable. Yeah, Amber and Sal both were abused kids who did fucked up things as a result of said abuse (as well as other pressing factors) but only one of them was charged and sanctioned for it (although Amber did get to watch her dad take out the smack to his ego on her mom because Blaine’s an abusive garbage heel).
The only disgusting thing here is you thinking you get to call others disgusting for wanting Amber to face consequences for things she actually did. Amber can be mentally ill and traumatized and need serious help and support and still mistreat others and do crappy things and wanting consequences for that besides her own guilt isn’t really unreasonable, especially since her reconciliation with Sal was relatively controversial.
You really are so bratty. You can attack people with mental illnesses, completely twist and omit information at your personal discretion, misrepresent scenarios, but heaven forbid someone call you on it because then you’ll act like you’re the victim and have better things to do than participate in an argument you started.
Also: While Amber’s outburst was not appropriate, it was not physically threatening to Ethan.
Also also: Not wanting Ethan to join a literal cult is not the same as imposing her opinions on him.
Also also also: Acting like her actions were at ALL rooted in wanting to control Ethan’s coming out was a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened. While she was interested in him coming out, she didn’t force that on him. She just didn’t want him dating someone who she worried would reinforce toxic mentalities. Not wanting your friend in an emotionally abusive relationship (Which dating someone who thinks you are a sinner who deserves hell would inevitably be) is not the same as controlling their sexuality. And don’t think I didn’t notice the subtle attempts to pose yourself as an expert on this subject by using “us” as though that verifies your stance. You are NOT speaking for LGBT+ people here. You sure as HELL aren’t speaking for me.
Once again, removing context doesn’t help your stance it just shows how biased you are.
Now I am going to go to bed, kindly go fuck yourself.
@Lauralot I literally said nothing about the validity or lack thereof of Amber’s feelings regarding the situation I was talking entirely about how she expressed them to Ethan (in quite possibly the worst possible way short of physically attacking him) so I don’t even know what your point is because you’re arguing against a position I never took. I have no problem with Amber feeling hurt or concerned about Ethan’s choice I have a problem with how she treated him in response to those feelings which was very poorly and with zero respect.
BBCC, we’re going to have to disagree here because firstly while Amber never used the word cult, she did repeatedly express that Joyce was teaching him to hate himself and who he is. Arguing whether or not she specifically perceived an environment she knew would seek to brainwash and emotionally abuse him, which was the point of her concern, was a cult is really just semantics.
Secondly, wanting Amber to face consequences is completely different from actively rooting for a character to act hateful and mad at her for something that happened five years ago when she was a child. This isn’t even a FAIR moment for her to be punished for. You want her to face charges for slicing someone up? Sure, that’s fair. You want her on probation for changing Walky’s grades? Yeah, great. You want Ethan to stand up to her for dumping him over something he absolutely could not have known was a trigger? That makes absolute sense. But this? Amber didn’t even know Walky and Sal were related until a day or so ago in canon and has been trying to reconcile that. The actual stabbing happened when she was a child and it’s something she deeply regrets AND is working through with Sal. Walky himself wasn’t even present. He has no reason to get angry at her. The only reason to want him, one of her only semi-functional relationships at this point, to be mad is to see Amber – a mentally ill woman, suffer because she just hasn’t suffered enough yet.
Finally, she used the term disgusting first. I just embraced it.
@Tilt Flipping a table someone is sitting at while screaming at them is fundamentally a physically threatening act and that’s just not debatable it is an active display of violence like throwing a dinner plate at the wall during an argument.
Also for someone with such a hardon for context you sure are ignoring it in favour of claiming Ethan was joining a cult. Ethan was opting to date a girl at his college not move to her small town and join her fundamentalist church.
And if some LGBT folks are cool with their straight friends screaming at them and flipping tables in front of them because they’re uncomfortable being queer then okay that’s their prerogative but lets not pretend that’s anything but an incredibly niche (and I’d argue unhealthy) position. Some queer people think we should be in conversion therapy, doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable to posit that queer people generally think it’s awful.
@”Finally, she used the term disgusting first. I just embraced it.” God you are such a hypocrite accusing me of misrepresenting everything and then saying this when the literal first line of your response to me was “BARF” as if that isn’t in fact an even more incendiary response.
HAHAHA! Wow! I love how Joyce was a part of a group of Christians who would ABSOLUTELY be for conversion therapy, was “teaching Ethan to be straight” (Trademark of conversion therapy), and firmly believed that being gay is a sin… And yet your last point was about how most gay people would be against all of that. Do you actually think through your arguments? Like, at all?
Amber was essentially trying to keep him out of self-imposed conversion therapy via a girl who thinks unicorn doors are associated with being gay. Which, again, I am not excusing her actions, clearly flipping a table was wrong, but let’s not forget WHY.
And your attempt at “context” is flimsy at best, since he wasn’t JUST dating a girl at college, he was dating a girl from a fundamentalist Christian community who was trying to reform his sexuality and turn him straight. Who she originally was worried about because she thought Ethan was lying to, before realizing that she was just a Christian girl trying to CONVERT him straight.
Tell me again how queer people feel about conversion therapy?
As someone who’s been tricked into joining two cults, I don’t think it is semantics. Cult is not a term to fuck around with, and in this case, Amber didn’t know Joyce from Adam. Her objection wasn’t ‘cult’ (unless Amber considers all of Christianity to be such, which would be strange considering Amber herself is Catholic), her objection is that Ethan wants to be straight again and Joyce is willing to date him. And while it is absolutely fair to believe it’s a bad decision and even be angry because she’s frustrated, Amber was WAY out of line in that scene. She has a bit of a problem with making things about Ethan about her (and yes, that generally comes from a place of caring and protectiveness and from her own trauma, but there’s a reason Ethan told her last storyline that he has the right to make his own choices about his trauma, even if they’re choices she doesn’t like).
I don’t think anybody’s particularly rooting for Walky to be hateful here, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want Walky to be angry on Sal’s behalf, especially when a LOT of people were unsatisfied by Sal and Amber’s reconciliation. Nor did I use the word ‘punish’. I used consequences. For example, Sal’s habit of getting in fights is rooted in an admirable sense of justice and wanting to stop people who hurt others. However, the way she goes about it comes with a lot of splash back for Marcie. Marcie deciding not to speak to her until she’s satisfied Sal’s actually working on addressing her concerns wasn’t a punishment, but it was a consequence and I don’t think it was unreasonable. Hell, by this logic, Sal was a kid acting out due to abuse and other traumas too, but Amber’s not unreasonable for being angry with her and unwilling to forgive her when she realizes who Sal is (though stalking and harassing her is, again, WAY outta line). I don’t think it would be unreasonable for Walky to be angry or upset with Amber because he’s learned Amber stabbed his sister. Yes, Amber was a kid in a terrible situation, but stabbing your boyfriend’s sister is going to be the kind of thing that tends to cause a reaction, especially because Walky does care about his sister. Sure, Amber only found out the other day that she was his sister, and I don’t think it’s wrong to wait a couple days to work up to telling him, but that doesn’t make it unreasonable for him to be upset, even just in the normal ‘You stabbed my sister’ sense. I’d hope nobody’s cheering for him to be abusive or an ass about it, but just anger is neither of those things. And Sal working to move on with Amber doesn’t obligate Walky to forgive her, especially since he’s only just finding out.
Emily used disgusting sarcastically about herself and her own positions. Don’t try to flip that around into an equivalence of you calling her disgusting and a brat to boot. Knock it off.
BBCC, I know you are strongly anti-Amber and that’s coloring your perspective and alignment here. I get that.
Firstly because when someone wants to change who you fundamentally are to fit into their religious views, that’s pretty damn cult-like behavior. If I met someone who told me that could turn me straight, I’d turn and run. Whether or not Joyce meant it maliciously, wanting to alter a fundamental part of who someone is in that way is destructive. I want to say she even specifically used the term brainwashed, though I’d have to check to be sure and I just don’t feel like it right now. Also, and speaking as someone raised Catholic here, people who believe that you can change someone’s sexuality are usually from very abusive religious circles. It’s not minimizing the severity of cults to say that if someone believes they can/should change your sexuality to please their god, that you should stay away from that person.
Secondly, again, I feel like this is a matter of presentation and scale. Being interested in seeing Walky’s reaction, which could possibly include anger, is different than gleefully announcing how you want to see him angry and see Amber get the punishment you feel she deserves.
Thirdly, I feel like it should be mentioned that my original response to the thread was reasoned and calm. I said I hope he doesn’t get mad, explained why I don’t want to see anger, and said I don’t understand why anyone would want him to get upset with her in this particular scenario because it doesn’t seem to serve any narrative purpose except to see Amber suffer. To which Emily responded in a snotty and rude way about “self-flagellation” and wanting to see Amber face consequences (For???) and I replied barf because she was confirming what I had said before about just wanting to see Amber suffer for the sake of seeing her suffer. It doesn’t matter the context or why someone should upset or hurt her, it just matters that someone does it. Which, as someone from a physically and emotionally abusive home, and who is mentally ill as a result, I find the idea of to be very troubling and gross.
Tilt, this entire time you are going at this as if Emily is not also a queer person and her opinion is thus invalid.
Amber is valid to be upset that Ethan is doing something unhealthy by closeting himself and dating a fundamental Christian girl who plans to ‘turn him’ straight and later on convert him despite him being Jewish. However, screaming at him and yelling at him in the way that she did does not convey that concern. Instead, it’s blaming him for his choices and it’s showing an incredible lack of consideration that Ethan is 18, still dependent upon his homophobic parents, and that it might in fact be safer for him in the closet at the moment, regardless of the struggles that she went through during the summer to defend him. Because it completely ignores his own struggles this entire time. Ethan told her he is making the decision to stay in the closet at the moment, and Amber flips a table at him and says he’s not in charge of that decision. She does not get to yell at him in public, and as much as she should take Joyce to task for it to, she doesn’t get to yell at her in public and out Ethan at the same time.
And a lot of that was influenced by her jealousy that Ethan would fake it for Joyce, but not for her. It is fundamentally wrong to say that her reaction was born out of altruism and concern for Ethan’s welfare when Amber has an explicit selfish interest in it. She spent all summer defending Ethan and trying to get him to come to terms with being gay. Ethan wanting to go back into the closet for his own safety and for the sake of his relationship with his parents feels like a betrayal to her, because she’s thinking about her invested time and emotional labor this past summer. And her feelings for that are valid, but her behavior is not and should have consequences. It is absolutely controlling to scream “THE FUCK IT IS” when a queer person tells you that they are making the decision to go back into the closet. Also: flipping a table, grabbing at Joyce, and making fists at her and needing to be restrained is absolutely physically aggressive and threatening. Like, it wasn’t just that she flipped a table. That entire sequence she was physically trying to intimidate people. And that is wholly inappropriate.
Now I’m just laughing because I really love Amber. Trust me, if you’re looking for someone who’s ‘anti-Amber’, your princess is in another castle.
You should definitely stay away from people who try to change your sexuality. I don’t disagree with that. I do disagree with saying Ethan was joining a cult, because he clearly was not. There’s all sorts of non-cult religions who say they can pray the gay away. They’re fucking assholes for trying to do so, but they’re not cults. And yeah, it is brainwashing, which is a feature of cults but not the sole one and it comes up in all sorts of situations, including non-cult but still asshole religions. Amber was absolutely right to call Joyce on it and ask her where the screaming blue fuck she got off. The part that was out of line was flipping tables and screaming in Ethan’s face. That’s not okay, no matter how justified her frustration or anger is.
Again, there’s a difference between punishment and consequences. I’ve seen plenty of people saying they would consider therapy an acceptable consequence for all sorts of crappy things Amber does. And again, I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong for people to want to see Walky be angry, especially, again, when they found Sal and Amber’s reconciliation unsatisfying or insufficient because Amber didn’t have to apologize or do anything to get Sal to forgive her for stalking and harassing her, which was made worse in the context of learning Amber was the one who stabbed her (in a contrasting example from the same storyline, when Sal realized who Ethan was, she tracked him down to apologize and offer things she could do for him. He didn’t take her up on it until she insisted, but the offer helped a lot of people see it as Sal working for forgiveness). Yes, AG made an apology, but it was vague, unspecific and was without the full relevant context of the situation. As for Emily, she’s made her problem clear several times – That Amber/AG hurts and or mistreats people (yes, often out of trauma and her own issues, but that doesn’t make it not mistreatment or hurtful) and is forgiven without needing to apologize or do anything for it. Heck, Walky being angry also serves narrative purposes of A) Continuing the storyline between Amber and Sal, which isn’t going away because of one happy moment. B) Complicating the new relationship. Everyone likes relationship drama. …Well, I do anyways. It gives Amber and Walky a chance to grow and develop on each other. C) Again, wanting Amber to have consequences for a thing she actually did beyond her own guilt isn’t necessarily unreasonable. That IS a context for wanting Amber to have consequences. And the context of that story isn’t the same as just wanting Amber to suffer for suffering’s sake. A lot of people were hoping Joyce would lose Jacob’s friendship if he learned she was trying to meddle in his relationship with Raidah. That was for a narrative reason of wanting their to be consequences for her behaviour and wanting to see where she’d go from there. I understand where you’re coming from, and I’m sorry you’ve gone through an abusive home. You didn’t deserve that. I don’t think that your reasoning follows that people who want Amber to have consequences for her behaviour (such as someone being upset or angry by it) though. I haven’t seen anybody saying Walky should be abusive or cruel or hurtful or go out of his way to upset her (except inasmuch as relationship issues are inherently upsetting).
Pam, I did not mention neither my personal mental health nor my sexuality until after Emily began using “us” when referring broadly to to the gay/queer community as though she were speaking on behalf of everyone within this community. Which I am a part of. At which point, I pointed out my own sexuality and mental illness to cut off her attempts at positioning herself as an authority. It was not to gatekeep her, it was to prevent her from attempting to gatekeep me.
Again, not defending her actions. Flipping tables, yelling, and screaming aren’t appropriate. Though, while I do think her feelings for Ethan definitely played a role in that outburst, especially since she broke down about him not being able to try with her (and I will note again, she faced verbal abuse as a result of trying to help him), I do still think genuine concern played a role in why she was so angry. You can approach a topic from a place of concern, and still act pretty shitty.
I really do feel like the worst of her actions would be tempered if she got some mental health help. People getting mad at her won’t be nearly as effective as a therapist and some well-prescribed medicine.
Amber desperately needs help. No one is in contention with that.
But I disagree that facing any kind of social consequences would be ineffectual. It could be an incentive for Amber to get help and work through her issues if someone held her accountable for things she’s done and said. It could also backfire. But currently, no one has really held Amber accountable for any of her actions and kind of forgiven her immediately, even when she hasn’t apologized or tried to make up for it, and I think that can also incredibly unhealthy.
– Ethan did not get upset at her at all for what happened in the lunchroom, and Amber doesn’t fully apologize, but says that she was terrible for exploding at them and her acknowledgment of her behavior is that it’s ‘weird’ and ‘erratic’ (she said ‘sorry’ as she ran away but that could easily be about her crying and running away because she remembered her trauma)
– Danny was consistently the one trying to make things up to Amber after she/AG yelled at him for talking to Sal, and when he did confront her on AG working together with Sal, she deflected and somersaulted away from the truth. Later on, Danny asks the same question Ethan did earlier “Are we friends again?” and Amber said he shouldn’t take back someone who doesn’t apologize, and that apologies don’t mean anything if you can’t stop the behavior from happening, with no indication of if she plans on stopping the behavior from happening.
– Even just recently, Sal was the one that had to facilitate the reconciliation after confronting Amber on hiding their past and stalking/harassing her at college before building up a friendship with her as both Amber and AG, and for most of that Amber remained hostile.
No one’s saying Amber needs to be punished or screamed at or ostracized or abused. But that Amber could and should be the one to make things right for something, and put some effort into reconciliation with someone. The closest she gets is with Ethan, where she acknowledges what she did was terrible, but she doesn’t fully apologize and redirects it to her being ‘erratic’. I think it would be healthier overall for Amber if she starts the reconciliation process herself for once instead of thinking of herself as a horrible, awful person undeserving of love and forgiveness. And obviously it’s not easy, and it takes a while to get to that point, but Amber needs to get at that point. And if what it takes is Walky being upset at her for being the girl that stabbed his sister and then went on to date him, then I don’t think that’s terrible at all.
Pam, I am not sure where you are going with this reply? Like, we were talking about gatekeeping, which I wasn’t doing, and now we’re onto people standing up to Amber, which I said does need to happen? Like, half of these I gave as examples of what kind of confrontations should happen with Amber.
I am not against people in canon having a falling out with Amber and her reconciling her behavior. I just don’t think THIS is the best moment. Of all the people who could/should hold Amber accountable for her actions, Walky on this subject is the bottom of my list. It feels like people are wanting to just see her punished for something by someone. It doesn’t matter who or why, which is what bothers me. Because at that point it doesn’t feel like they want to see story progression or character growth, they just want to see a specific character they hate in pain.
People want Amber to be hurt for the sake of being hurt. She flipped a table, so Walky should get angry at her and make her suffer. She was mean to Danny, so Walky should get angry at her and make her suffer. She shook her fists at Joyce, so Walky should get angry at her and make her suffer. None of these points are even connected.
And I just don’t see how Walky getting pissed would get her to reconcile anything, especially if you’re looking for Amber to start apologizing to people properly. Sal was the one person she said sorry to openly and directly, after all.
Re: gatekeeping, the only time Emily used “us” or “we” was in the explicit example of straight people yelling at queer people and physically intimidating them regarding their choices for their identity expression, which actually happened in comic of Amber yelling at Ethan. You later agreed that Amber was physically intimidating Ethan in that exchange. Emily was saying that was inappropriate for any straight person to do to a queer person, and gave her opinion that it would be unhealthy for a queer person to be okay with that. And you agreed that it was inappropriate when both BBCC and myself said this. But when Emily said it, and used ‘us’ in the example, it was gatekeeping. I don’t see how that was gatekeeping, though. That was an opinion, one that I share. No straight person ever has the right to treat me the way that Amber treated Ethan in that moment, regardless of what mental illness issues they have at that moment or if they think they are doing what is wrong for me. True, Emily does not speak for all queer people, and I don’t think she was really trying to. But you, however, ended one of your posts with “Tell me again how queer people feel about conversion therapy?” which is very gatekeepy and honestly doesn’t make sense to me, since you were also arguing that Ethan was trying to convert himself. Which.. goes with Emily’s point of how some queer people want to do conversion therapy, but the majority think it’s terrible.
We were also talking about Ethan’s perspective in the whole lunchroom debacle, or at least I was, and his opinion about the whole thing. And much like Amber ignoring them in the heat of the moment, it was also ignored in favor of talking about Amber’s feelings. I agreed that Ethan’s actions and choices in that scene were not healthy in any way, but Amber is still not justified to have done so in any way because as I tried to repeatedly state: if her concern was for Ethan’s safety and health, that did not make anything safe for Ethan at all.
My reply is in direct relation to your last point, and a repeatedly stated point of yours, that someone getting mad at Amber would not be helpful at all to her. And I disagree. There is a lot that Walky could get upset at Amber about on Sal’s behalf if he knew about it, and maybe him confronting her about it might help her have a realization that she goes to Sal to rectify further. Because reconciliation is not something that just has to happen once, it can happen multiple times. And if Walky knows the full context that Sal knows- Amber stabbed her as kids, stalked and harassed her as adults, and then befriended her and started dating him while keeping the both of them in the dark, before finally fighting Sal on the steps outside the dorm- he could go “wtf why would you do that” and start a conversation with Amber about it. It could lead into Walky finding out she changed his grades and lied about it. It could also lead Walky to starting a conversation with Sal about it, and reconciling with her because he understands her pain better. But I don’t think Walky get upset is unreasonable, nor would it be making Amber suffer unnecessarily. She still didn’t acknowledge any of the other things that she/AG did to Sal. She apologized, but what was it for? The stabbing? The stalking? The fight? Everything? There’s still so much that Sal and Amber need to work through, and they’re trying to just sweep past it all, and there’s bound to be resentment still built up. Now, Walky wouldn’t be justified in getting angry and verbally abusive towards Amber, but I don’t think that’s what anyone else is wanting. But some kind of confrontation with Amber isn’t inherently bad, and it’s not necessarily going to be negative. It could be a moment of realization for both of them, that their whole belief going into this relationship that they’re both “garbage who deserve each other” and don’t need to grow or work on themselves is unhealthy.
The only person who connected Walky confronting Amber as a consequence of finding out the truth and Walky exploding at Amber about this situation is you. Confrontation doesn’t have to be loud, it doesn’t have to physical, it doesn’t have to be negative. BBCC pointed out Marcie taking a step back from Sal as a result of being negatively impacted by being near her as a consequence of her actions. The same thing can happen her. Walky can look at Amber and go, “Hey, I can’t be around someone that did these things to my sister” and leave. And even if the big thing happened 5 years ago when they were children, these things were clearly still happening as of last night, when they beat the shit out of each other.
So here’s my deal on the whole Amber/Ethan/Joyce situation. The “Prime Directive,” so to speak is people get to deal with their sexuality on their own terms. All’s reasonable so far. But one of the underlying assumptions for high schoolers is that this shit gets easier after high school. You’ll get to meet other gay kids, people are less entrenched in their social views, life is just bound to get better for homosexuals in college. So to see your best friend go to college, and then recede back into a homophobic viewpoint has to be very painful. Not only because you see them harming themselves, but also because your optimism turned out to be misplaced, but ultimately invalid. Turns out their is no safe harbor and that is justifiably infuriating. So when you find someone who exemplifies this outlook, ensuring that people who love in defiance of the mainstream fee orchestrated and unnatural. The people who have destroyed your vision of what college could and should of been, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to lose your shit at them.
I think it’s absolutely unreasonable to lose your shit at the gay person actually going through that when you are not in any way LGBT. That is putting the straight person’s thoughts and feelings above the gay person’s and it’s grossly inappropriate in any situation.
I’ve said before that Amber absolutely should take Joyce to task over her role in that debacle, and I shed no tears for Joyce being called out on her shit. But the thing that has been repeatedly stated by me and by others is that she had no right to do that to Ethan, who is the actual gay person involved. It’s much like Roz yelling at Joyce (which I also don’t disapprove of) against the wishes of Leslie, the actual lesbian in the room.
No one here ever said Amber yelling at Joyce was bad. Everyone is saying it was bad for her to have yelled and tried to physically intimidate Ethan.
Pam, I am absolutely not approaching this as though Emily weren’t also queer. I’m just not approaching this as though she is an authority on what it means to be queer.
Secondly, multiple times this discussion I have said Amber’s actions weren’t appropriate. That isn’t even up for debate here. I said that I think three separate times (Though once I did say it wasn’t physically threatening, in retrospect that was wrong)? I also noted that a part of her motivation was that she had feelings for Ethan and resented that he was willing to fake it for Joyce but not her and how that may have further exasperated body image issues.
My position isn’t about whether Amber’s ACTIONS were right. Clearly, they aren’t. Flipping a table is inappropriate. Breaking up with Danny for talking to Sal is inappropriate. Lying to Dorothy about who beat her father was inappropriate. This isn’t about whether or not her actions were right or wrong. They were wrong. Period. It’s about whether or not her motivations were coming from an abusive, controlling, or cruel place.
I also really feel like saying he was going back in the closet misrepresents what was happening. It wasn’t that he was going back in the closet, it was that he was trying to convert himself. That is something very, very different. Ethan didn’t say, “Joyce knows I am gay but she is playing along because I’m not ready to be out yet” he said he was trying to be someone he isn’t. That just isn’t the same thing.
But you are, whether you realize it or not, once you put your credentials out there as a mentally ill girl you are trying to gatekeep the discussion because you inherently have more authority regarding the discussion of mental illness/queer identity. Which is why I put my credentials out there.
I acknowledge that you repeated that you also found it inappropriate, but at the same time you defended her actions as all from coming from a place of worry, which is what I was responding to. Amber was worried about Ethan, sure, but she also had a selfish interest in Ethan’s identity and did not at any point consider why he might go back into the closet or why he might go along with any of Joyce’s bs. It was unhealthy. I am not at any point saying that Ethan deciding to go along with Joyce was healthy in any way. But Amber screaming at him and trying to physically assert herself in public against the two of them does not put Ethan in a healthier place. It doesn’t help Ethan feel safer about being out, when Amber’s screaming in public that he’s gay and being forced to convert. Ethan’s agency is being taken away from him because of Amber’s concern and frankly it was not her place to do so. Notably, she ignored Ethan’s opinion the entire time during that sequence and in earlier scenes when he expressed doubt about being gay or wanting to go into the closet because of his mom. That’s the part that’s controlling. Yes, she wants the best for Ethan, but she also won’t listen to him when he’s trying to tell her something.
Oh no! That’s why I couldn’t respond to you, I thought that my responses were bugged, I didn’t realize you were responding to my reply directly. That’s a lot easier than scrolling up for three pages!
My response is a little further up, do you see it? ^^; If not, I can repost.
The comments section these days whenever Sal or Amber shows up just makes me so sad. It seems like it’s impossible to have a discussion sympathetic to either one’s issues without being accused of excusing their actions or blaming the other. As someone who struggles with mental illness, a lot of the discussion around Amber specifically actually makes me feel scared to talk about my own issues for fear that people would think I’m using it as an excuse for everything. I know that’s stupid and I should probably just stop reading the comment section, but it’s disheartening.
I apologize if I am feeding into it. =S I do try to take a moderate stance on them, they’re both complex and divisive characters and deserve better than blind hate. But arguing probably doesn’t help any.
It’s okay. You haven’t demonized either one that I’ve seen, or brushed off child abuse/racism/mental illness/etc. to make one look better than the other. It seems like that happens all the time here, in both directions.
I’m sorry things are rough right now, Lauralot. It doesn’t help that with Sal and Amber both are very complicated characters and the situation is complicated. Sometimes it’s hard to acknowledge what one does wrong without excusing the other or being overly condemnatory. I think the ending of the last storyline didn’t help, as it came wrapped in a lot of issues and a context of harmful tropes (I’m still of two minds about it myself). Regardless, though, you’re cool, and while you may lash out at people sometimes, you still have worth.
I agree. And it’s not just Sal and Amber, though they’ve been prominent thanks to the fight.
The level of vitriol around here seems much higher in general than it used to be. Or maybe my tolerance is just fading. Partly we haven’t seen much of the real villains lately and it’s been more characters in conflict with each other.
Pick a side and demonize the other one. But Joyce gets torn apart every time she appears. Walky gets his share. And so much of it seems over the top to me. Even something as silly as those Lucy and Billie strips degenerated into insults.
All these characters have flaws. Often serious ones. And good points. That’s why I like them.
I’ve been trying to back off on defending them too, since it just seems to escalate anyway.
Yeah, I don’t know what the catalyst is, but the comments have seemed as a whole much angrier and more combative as of late. I’d say maybe it’s the holidays, but this has been happening since at least Jacob’s last appearance if not earlier.
Part of it is character arcs taking years to progress. Like, watching Joyce walk all over someone’s boundaries for the 835th time over the course of 8 years with little development or watching Billie revert to being an arrogant jerkass after FINALLY getting some character development on that front after like 6 years of “Billie HBOC” is really frustrating and it just starts to feel like half of these characters are in stasis.
Historically, this comment section has been very tolerant and accepting of people from diverse backgrounds and with different opinions. This may have made it seem like a safe place for those who are angry at being treated unfairly to express some of that anger. Unfortunately, not everybody has the empathy to say “OK, that person is angry, but I can at least imagine why, even though I don’t share their perspective”. Instead, some people react defensively – usually with hostility – which leads to an escalating war of words as each tries to prove thay are “right”. Sadly, that makes this space feel less safe and welcoming.
There is much injustice in the world to be angry at, and trump is busily making it worse as fast as he can and as much as he can, because that is what persuades his base to get out and vote for him. We are seeing a tiny fraction of that here. This is regrettable, but it is a reflection of real life right now.
I would like to remind everyone that two people can have different opinions about the same thing, and both be “right” because they are both basing their response on their experiences. It is helpful to be able – or at least to try – to see things from the other person’s point of view. But I’m probably pissing upwind here. The people who most need to do this are the ones who find it most difficult. It doesn’t help that society really is unfair, and that this is not obvious to those who don’t suffer from that unfairness (unless they look – and why would they? Then they’d have to admit their own complicity).
What’s… weird and kinda sad is I hope Walky actually is angry at Amber about this? Like maybe not permanently angry. But after 18 years of not taking his sister’s issues seriously, not understanding that they were treated differently, I’d like to see him stand up for her for once. This is entirely the wrong time and situation to do it, but where’s the fun in it if his first time goes well?
I don’t know if angry is the right word, but I’d definitely like to see him go from…well, anywhere from ‘automatically decide to go scream at Sal for the fight’ territory.
I would rather see that anger directed at their mother, personally. I feel like Amber and Sal are catalysts for each other’s suffering, but not directly tied to it enough for me to personally root for this to be the moment which snaps Walky into being personally involved in Sal’s life. Also, since Sal is trying to move on, I don’t see how it would actually help him see eye to eye with her.
I’m not against someone talking some sense into Amber, don’t get me wrong, but just not all that eager to see that moment be over something that happened when she was 13, over five years ago in canon.
I’d love for this to be a moment of clarity, personally. Sal knows more about what Amber went through now, but Amber still doesn’t know Sal’s motivation. She still thinks Sal did something wrong to do something wrong, whereas Walky knows the deeper reason – whether he expresses it or not. Him starting to explain what Sal did and realizing, holy crap his racist mom caused this by stealing Sal’s money, and him realizing what a butt he was for being so flippant about Sal trying to help her friend would be a lot more satisfying for me, personally.
Hm… As much as I think it’s possible that Walky’s parents would want to shelter him from what happened to Sal, it’d be pretty hard to cover up entirely. Sal would have to be in the hospital, there’d likely be rumors about her floating around, etc.
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“oh ok if y’all got even or whatever that’s coo”
i mean i wouldn’t be so surprised, it is Walky we’re talking about
Does he even know? Sal’s not into sharing, and Walky’s not into paying attention.
I think he knows about the incident that got her deported to Tennessee, yes
her parents wanted her Tennesseen and not heard
DID YOU JUST
YOU WON’T BELIEVE
TENNESSEAN IS TENNEBELIEVIN’
Wow well there it is
I’m really impressed that Amber just said it straight out like that – just the facts, no color. I was really proud of her for telling Walky without trying to twist it into anything or blame Sal or other dishonesty. She just said it.
I know right?! I’m so glad it didn’t take several strips to drag it out of her.
“HANG ON!”
*Amber and Walky glare at Joyce*
“I-I have some questions about this ‘prose’!”
“Amber, I can’t read this! It goes against my principles!”
“Oh, okay, hold on.”
Amber goes to the beginning of the document and types “But first they totally get married. It’s a lovely ceremony”.
Joyce says “Yay” and goes back to thoroughly enjoying the prose.
Captain Marvel (aka Shazam) performs the ceremony, because he’s a captain.
You need to be captain of a naval vessel though, not just any old captain. So this might actually be a job for Aquaman.
I’m pretty sure Atlantis doesn’t count as a seafaring vessel, but he is royalty, so…
Sure it is. It contains a lot of people, floated on top of the water for a bit and then sank down…
At the very least it was a seafaring vessel.
Don’t know about the seafaring, but it sure did a lot of seasinking.
King is better than Captain anyway. Aquaman is a better choice in general.
Actually, that is an urban myth, ship captains have no authority to marry people.
I’ll bet he could perform the ceremony at the Rock of Eternity, but who wants their wedding to be in done in the presence of the Seven Deadly Sins?
(Waits for the show of hands.)
Just let her stab you a bit
Tell me that the first panel shouldn’t have been the last panel.
In fact, tell me the first panel shouldn’t have been every panel.
Actually it’s the segue panel into the next slipshine.
Batman and Supersex do a sex?
With bat-condoms, of course.
It’s the Joyce’s imagination variant.
The upside is that it could still be uploaded to Tumblr.
The downside is that it could still be uploaded to Tumblr.
You win the internet today, sir. Or … you win Tumblr, at least.
…Do you want it?
Ehhh…..
Don’t you mean Batman and Supersex do a man?
So, it’s a threesome, then?
I won’t. The Amber and Walky part is nice enough but Joyce’s LASERLIKE FOCUS is the best part of this strip. o(〃＾▽＾〃)o
Agreed, the fact that Amber is telling Walky about the fight and stuff is great, but Joyce reading the fanfic is definitely the best panel of today’s strip.
Every time the comic switches back to Joyce, her face should be getting redder and redder.
I made this for you.
http://i.imgur.com/2k7GT7z.png
Thank you Tan, it’s unusual for a DoA strip to be capable of being improved. Well done!
Seconded.
A masterpiece.
Tried it with a different strip. Let me know what you think.
http://i.imgur.com/w3J7V8b.png
Joyce is adorable, yes.
“If you’re mad about me stabbing your sister, you can ‘stab’ me in return and we’ll call it even. ” :p
See, Walky. Amber HAD more than one dark secret.
Amber is actually just a bunch of dark secrets stacked in a trench coat.
That’s… that’s probably close to how she sees herself.
Sometimes you can see them just kind withering under the coat – it’s creepy – almost Lovecraftian (but without the racism and bigotry).
And fear of seafood.
Oh, did it include a lot of that? I’ve never read any, I just know the pop culture osmosis. But I did read Dracula so I’ll assume it was like that.
There is quite a bit of racist subtext in Lovecraft’s work, especially given the openly expressed racism in his extensive correspondence. On the other hand, Lovecraft did seem to be moving in a less bigoted direction as he got older. Since he was fairly young when he died, it’s impossible to know where he might have ended up if he’d lived longer.
It was less subtext and more that even his cat’s name was a racial slur
Not to mention in the actual text, as svata suggests. It was not only his actual cat’s name, but also a cat in one of his stories.
There’s another short story that’s essentially a racial slur disguised as a horror story. And other descriptions throughout.
Not just black people though – the stories are also full of fear and loathing of pretty much anyone who didn’t match his white, upper middle class background – southern and eastern European immigrants. Even the rural white New Englanders are often portrayed as decaying into subhuman monsters.
It’s possible he was changing, but it’s hard to say for sure. It’s a shame, because there’s a lot I like about his writing, despite how cringy much of it is. Probably helps that I first encountered it young and didn’t hit the worst parts until later.
No mention of “racism and Lovecraft” can be complete without mentioning the Red Hook story, which was ALL text. Also, loads of misogyny.
IF it helps, Lovecraft penned a letter in his later years (well, “later” considering how young he died) in which he admits his racism and condemns it. DOES it help? I dunno, and as a white dude I’m reasonably sure it’s not for me to say even if I did.
HP Lovecraft was…not even good for his time, to be honest.
Look up his cat’s name.
I’ve always found Lovecraft nearly unreadable, even setting the racism aside. He just wasn’t a good writer. I don’t think he ever described anything mystical without using the phrase “of curious design.” Not helpful, H.P.
And setting aside the racism is nigh impossible because it’s baked into the themes of basically everything he wrote. The Shadow Over Innsmouth is a bald-faced metaphor for race-mixing and how it’s an abomination. At The Mountains of Madness is about the horror of a primitive slave race overthrowing its much more civilized masters. Dude’s entire shtick is the fear of the other and outsider and by the other and outsider I mean non-whites he just uses space aliens as a metaphor.
If we want to keep it in-world, and ignore the actual writer to enjoy the funky funky monsters, we could reverse the causality, like, we’d pretend that humans are racist because they’re subconsciously afraid of the Ancient Ones and aliens n’stuff, rather than the other way around.
But yeah the real deal is the writer was a racist. Alas.
Like, The White Ape is pretty much the protagonist killing himself because he finds out that he’s descended of an African person who could pass as white.
Here is a good discussion on the subject by guy who makes the Ask Lovecraft show.
http://geekuallyyoked.com/?p=582
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFw-4h02WmY
Jump suit and cape.
what is an amber? a miserable pile of secrets…
“My name is Amber . . . uh, Adultwoman!”
“What is Amber? A miserable ‘little’ pile of secrets!”
-Amazigirl, probably
Amber still has more than one dark secret. No past tense necessary.
I approve of her phrasing.
Yeah, this is about as good as it was going to get from Amber. Now the ball is in Walky’s court.
Taking bets right now that Joyce realizes how much of this she overheard the INSTANT they leave the room! 😉
At this point, Joyce hardly remembers anyone else in the room. She even brought her own hairbrush.
well color me surprised
*there are a billion punk songs I could play and I have to beg off. This isn’t you, it’s me*
I wonder how Walky feels about that night? We know Sal is kinda ok about it now (maybe). But since that kinda resolved itself now I’m wondering if the incident will disrupt Walky and Amber’s relationship.
More like she’s ready to move on and has recognized the similarities between herself and Amber (more than she already had).
Until recently it seems like Walky believed Sal was a criminal of sorts and possibly doesn’t know the full story of why and what happened that night. My guess is his opinion mostly aligns with what his parents think of the situation.
Agreed. Walky has historically not cared all that much about his sister; I don’t think he cared one way or the other nor was concerned about her getting arrested, stabbed, etc. (nobody but Sal herself, and POSSIBLY maybe Amber now, has ever seemed to think anything of the fact that she was stabbed in that incident). I don’t really see Walky getting upset at Amber over this. If anything, I think it would be more in character for him to side with Amber against his sister.
He’s been…SOMEWHAT more mindful of the lopsided treatment his sister’s gotten lately, but I don’t know how far I’d count on those bare inklings actually moving him to take sides with his sister against anyone else he felt affiliated with.
Marcie probably knows, but we’ve not seen her and Sal talking about the robbery or the fallout thereof.
I wouldn’t say that he doesn’t care about his sister, it more seems like he doesn’t know how to approach her and so he doesn’t do anything to improve their relationship. Kind of like how he doesn’t know how to improve his grades (study) and so he ends up just avoiding the issue (skipping class) and it does nothing to improve the situation. Those two situations kind of parallel each other nicely.
“Because, you know, the makeup sex was great.”
“Cool, let’s make out!” – Also Joyce looks like she’s enjoying herself! 😀
what
What
in the butt!
BUTTERS!!
From “stable” to stabby in just one moment.
I’m glad Amber pulled the bandaid off, but maybe this was a bit blunter than needed.
I hope Walky hears her out.
Expectation: This won’t dissolve into drama and Amber won’t know what to do about that.
“You remind me of your sister… your sister is sexier than you.”
“That’s fair.”
I’m so proud of Amber. A fictional character. I should reexamine my life choices. I’ll do it when I’ve run out of Internet to read.
My hero.
I CAN FLY HI~I~IGHER THAN E~EAGLES…
What healthy relationship *hasn’t* had any stabbings of family members?
Well this is gonna be interesting.
That said – I notice how Walky’s immediate reaction to hearing they were in a fight is to assume it’s Sal’s fault, when the reality is they both agreed they wanted to fight. It kinda reminds me of how Sal was a little surprised (that’s the wrong word, but I’m studying right now and can’t think of it) that Joyce didn’t push back about her street fighting. Walky, this is one reason Sal didn’t like you at the start.
I blame the parents.
I have to wonder if he even initially knew about the stabbing. That’s not something we’ve ever had confirmation of before.
And good job Amber – now just maybe tell him the grades thing and you’re set! 😀 I mean, you should probably have the DID talk eventually if you plan to date a while, but you can work up to that.
Y’know, assuming he doesn’t dump your sweet ass after this.
Walky’s oblivious, but he’s not *that* oblivious. The giant stab wound on Sal’s hand would be pretty hard to miss. Unless you mean he wasn’t aware of the exact circumstances that caused her injury, but seeing as he knew about the attempted robbery and the injury appeared around the same time, he almost certainly figured the two events were linked.
If Walky’s parents didn’t take him to pick her up and forbade her to tell him, it is actually very possible he doesn’t know. Especially since he could figure any sort of her leaving the house for surgeries or physical therapy could be court stuff or juvie stuff.
I was just wondering if maybe part of his reaction is he didn’t know she got stabbed at all. She does wear gloves — if she was shuffled off by their parents right away, there’s a possibility there.
Granted, she doesn’t wear gloves around her parents, but it’s possible they had her wear them around Walky.
Or concealer, or a bandaid (both on the back; one doesn’t look at palms much anyway), the latter ostensibly for some other reason. But I also was kind of under the impression that they didn’t see her like, at all, since they sent her away.
They didn’t. Those character twitters Willis made had Walky straight up say that they haven’t seen her since they sent her away (he also wondered if she’d flog him a la Da Vinci Code). In comic, he also
A) Says he hasn’t spoken to her much since they sent her off.
B) Tells Billie they haven’t kept in touch and he expected her to find Jesus, not leather, suggesting he hasn’t actually seen her since then.
C) He doesn’t have her phone number or any way to get in contact with her when Billie is searching for her and, earlier, told Billie he’d kept tabs on Sal about as much as Billie had.
I t doesn’t even have to be that complicated. They both acknowledge they were never close. Walky thinks of Billie as more of a sister. Sal probably just never told him in that brief period before she was shipped off. And he only had his parents info to go by, Sal got arrested for robbing a convenience store. I doubt he even knows her true motives for it.
I agree he likely has no idea of the motive, but the major injury would be pretty hard to miss, unless he literally never saw her after the robbery. She never came home, parents never took him to the hospital, never even told him she was hurt.
Even by Charles and Linda standards, that seems extreme.
I have the same suspicions.
This reminds me of when Dorothy found out AG and Danny had broken up and she immediately assumed Danny had fucked up. I’m sure this in no way reinforces Emily’s theory that everyone keeps giving Amber passes she doesn’t deserve.
That says a lot more about Dorothy’s relationship with Danny than with Amber. It has nothing to do with that theory that is in literally every daily comment section.
Pretty sure Dorothy assumed it was Danny’s fault because her own breakup with him was due to him being a selfish jerk about her ambitions.
Super cool people beat each other up all the time. Walky wouldn’t understand.
Yeah, he’s such a nerd.
Panel 1 has me wanting to make Rapture jokes at Joyce’s expense. Wonder if she’ll get inspired to pen something of her own?
Well done, Amber.
Oh geeze. like, good choice amber, but like… please react well Walky
He’s totally within bounds to tell Amber off and stalk away, though.
Joyce seems so engrossed with that story.
Anyways I kinda feel like Walky might just not do anything since Amber said that they’re cool now.
Ooh, I hope the B-Plot to this arc is that Joyce is discovering her urges in the form of fan fiction. Then she and amber can bond lmfao
Odd that walky automatically assumed that the fight was sal’s fault *eyes emoji*
The Willis taketh away Amber/Walky, and the Willis giveth Joyce/lube
As I said above, she even brought her own hairbrush.
Well, I think that the reason Walky jumped up to go scream at Sal was because he felt protective toward Amber because she’s his girl now. So I think he would have reacted that way toward ANYONE Amber said she’d gotten into a fight with. But, yeah, he assumes Sal’s the perp and that’s really sad.
Walky was mad at Sal for scaring Amber away. This played into his view that the world would try to take nice things away from him. Dorothy is already a casualty of reality, and then Sal chided Walky for moving on too quickly.
Acting that way to a stranger would be understandable, or someone he sort of knows but not that well. People are like that for better or worse they assume the ones they know and love are usually at least somewhat in the right until proven otherwise.
This is his sister and he knows both his girlfriend and sister can take care of themselves, and honestly he has no reason to believe Amazigirl didn’t pick a fight over underage drinking or something which while not great does not warrant that response.
I mean Amazigirl picking a fight over underaged drinking is a reason to tear into Amber for being a jackbooted thug just looking for an excuse. Underage drinking isn’t even “not great” it’s morally neutral and meaningless.
Oh! And way to go on just assuming the worst of Sal Walks! Real top notch brothering there. I dislike you greatly.
True, but honestly from Walky’s perspective it’d be like if Walky found out Sal fought DOROTHY. It’s easier to be mad at a family member than a cute girl who smooches your face.
There’s a surprise third option called don’t be a twit and assume anything until you have all the details. A lot of people would take that option.
That’s fine, but you never have all the details. Reasonable assumptions are necessary.
How about ‘Ask Sal what happened instead of automatically deciding to go scream at her?’
It’s not a reasonable assumption though. He knows Amber moonlights as a violent vigilante there’s no real basis for this assumption he’s just being a shitty brother.
He doesn’t know that she moonlights a violent vigilante though, AFAIK he thinks of AG as a superhero who’s just kind of not as perfect as some other people (Dorothy until recently, those idiots at the DeSanto rally) think. Which is definitely part of the problem, he really just doesn’t know enough about Amber at all. All the more reason Amber needs to keep this conversation going!
Superhero is literally just a euphemism for a violent vigilante.
I agree! But also I think part of the problem is that too many characters (probably not Walky, but others) in the comic don’t think that way and have given Amber/AG a free pass on shit that they really shouldn’t have.
Okay, yeah that’s a fair point.
Hell, it’s not even clear that the author thinks superhero is a euphemism for violent vigilante.
Which doesn’t mean there aren’t problems with Amazi-Girl’s actions, but I’m not at all sure the blanket condemnation that implies is there.
There’s different cultural connotations around superhero and vigilante. Superheroes call to mind escapist fiction where it’s actually possible for individuals to apply justice equally and stop huge crises by themselves and protect people.
He knows Amber already stabbed someone, and was concerned she would do it again if she didn’t escape to the roof. And I’m pretty sure she told him this before she stabbed Ryan.
She also referred to Amber as her other self as Amazigirl.
I’ve heard some people dress up like superheroes and like help old ladies with their groceries or pick up trash or stuff which is actually legal.
That would be ideal, but how many people would actually do this in real life? And yes, “all the details” is an impossible thing, especially because everyone’s perception of the situation is different.
I don’t understand why people are ready to defend Walky on this. Imagine if he ran off before Amber finished talking. Ranting at his sister would’ve been just fine then? Walky was just ready with that snap decision and that’s not okay. I’m gonna give him credit he doesn’t deserve and say it’s their inherent sibling rivalry and not Walky being a douche.
I mean, from his point of view, Sal got into a physical fight with Amber because she’s dating him, so yeah it’s a dumb thing but it’s not that awful.
He doesn’t have a reason to think it’s about him dating Amber though. Honestly I’d take ‘What happened’ or ‘Why?’ over ‘I have to go scream at my sister now’.
Well, there was that confrontation on the roof where Sal found out he was kissing Amber. Since he’s got no idea of any of the other connections between them, it’s a pretty reasonable assumption.
Except in that conversation, Sal didn’t really seem to care about Amber, just Walky.
True, but it’s at least a potential source of conflict, rather than “Jeez Amber, why’d you attack Sal who you’ve never met and know nothing about, it couldn’t possibly have anything to do with me.”
But that’s also not even what anyone else is saying either. Walky doesn’t have any reason to believe that it was Amber attacking Sal or Sal attacking Amber, and if the only point of conflict he knows about was how Sal caught them on the roof but absolutely nothing happened, besides Amber getting freaked out and embarrassed (from his perspective), a much more reasonable reaction from Walky would be wondering how that would even come about. And even then, it’s really not at all reasonable to assume that Sal would start a fight with Amber over what happened on the roof, when all she did was mild disapproval.
Especially when her disapproval was entirely aimed at Walky.
Dude has literally no context whatsoever and his first response is to go yell at Sal. It sucks. He’s being an ass.
Yup I’m guessing he is still struggling to break his pattern of thought from childhood where Sal is guilty until proven innocent. I don’t want him to dump Amber over this but I want him to know better than to blame Sal.
I definitely want him to dump Amber over the combination of this and her changing his grades against his express wishes. Especially since the only reason she’s even telling him this much is because she no longer has the option not to now that Sal knows.
I don’t understand people defending Walky on this either, and I would go so far as to say he is being a douche. He’s never considered Sal’s complaints about not being treated well by her own family and his default is to see her as a troublemaker regardless of what she’s actually doing.
Well, no, it’s like he found out Sal fought Amber. Who he knows moonlights as a superhero and gets into physical confrontations fairly often, unlike Dorothy, who is generally not aggressive in any way at all especially not physically.
I agree that it’s easier to get mad at family over romantic partners, but I think Walky would have had an even worse reaction had it been Dorothy considering she wouldn’t have stood a snowball’s chance in Hell in a physical confrontation.
I came here to say exactly this.
Walky is another character I’ve grown to dislike more as the comic went along (although he was never the kind of person I’d have wanted in my life in the real world).
I agree. He seemed harmless early on, but now it’s pretty clear he has a pattern of willful ignorance. I think his reaction is pretty consistent with his character, but it’s not a good response.
Eh, sibling relationships are tough even without parents fouling things up. They have no history of having each others backs. The last time Walky lived in proximity with his sister ended with her holding a knife to a random passerby’s throat, all in an effort to rectify whatever happened as a result of her last violent exchange. Also, the last time he saw her she was an absolute shit to him, so I can understand the conclusion jumping.
The alt-text is the reveal of the next book’s title.
Joyce discovering fanfiction is a wonderful thing
Winking avatar suits comment nicely.
Yessssssssssssss *wink*
Joyce’s mind: “And the Bruce kissed Cla-What was that about stabbing a hand?- Oh nevermind. Where was I? Oh right, Clark touched Burce’s scared abs and…”
listen i know that was probably meant to read “scarred” but i’m cracking the absolute fuck up at “scared abs”
I wouldn’t be surprised if Walky has no idea what she’s talking about, because since when does Sal share?
Getting stabbed in the hand in a robbery is not really something you can keep under wraps though, is it?
If you’re not keeping a stab wound under wraps, you’re doing something wrong.
“Wraps” means bandages, right?
Sure you can, if he’s not there when her parents pick her up and they order her not to say anything. Or if Sal spent most of the time in the hospital between then and getting shipped off because a knife going through the hand is gonna require at least one surgery because based on her scar, it may have impacted bone, nerves, ligaments, joints, tendons and/or muscle.
Okay, it’s possible, but even for the Walkertons this seems… excessive.
I don’t think it would be excessive based on what we know of them for them to say something like ‘Don’t worry/bother your brother’. Again, assuming she came home between the hospital and being sent away.
You can’t really “not say anything” about a stab wound requiring major surgery. I mean you can, but the bandages are going to give it away.
I guess she could have not come home, but if they didn’t even tell him she was in the hospital? Damn.
I can see her parents deciding it would worry Walky. I’m not sure if they did tell him or not. Initially, I figured he knew on patreon (mostly because I don’t actually enjoy frothing rage) but then someone pointed out this doesn’t actually confirm he knew or not so now I’m wondering.
“What’s a stab between a few friends?” The title of the story Joyce is reading right now.
Should’ve led with the “We’re in Roller Derby together now!” and move backwards from there.
JOYCE IS HAVING A GOOD TIME
Walky. Is being confronted with adult hood, realness, and not cartoon’s at a level he both doesn’t like/can’t handle. Again.
Slug it out, hug it out. Burn any residual in roller derby.
“We FOUGHT last night. We had a LITERAL fight.”
What is the difference between a literal fight and an ACTUAL fight, which is what I thought Amber and Sal had?
my first assumption when people “fight” is that they had a verbal disagreement of some sort. saying “we had a LITERAL fight” implies a more physical, violent fight. at least, that’s what i think!
Ianans, but I think she’s trying to say they didn’t fight with words, but did fight with fists and all they had. This being literal as in “not figuratively speaking”, whereas “actual” would be a word she would use to distinguish between something that looks like a disagreement/fight but doesn’t indicate the people involved actually dislike each other and being really angry with each other.
I think that Amber was trying to differentiate between a verbal argument and the actual physical conflict that actually happened.
Saying ‘actual’ to me still leaves room for ambiguity on whether it was a verbal holding back nothing fight or a physical fight whereas saying it was a ‘literal’ fight establishes it as a physical fight.
Wow, Amber isn’t holding it back.
Joyce probably is too engrossed in fanfic to pay attention.
I wonder if Joyce is replacing some words with “tushie” as she reads them.
And others with “ding-dong”.
No, those are also tushies.
Yes, Joyce, let the Slashfic flow through you.
Curiosity leads to arousal. Arousal leads to lust. Lust leads to pre-marital hanky panky. And it is good. 😀
First, I think Amber is right to get all this out in the open. It will be interesting to see how Walky handles it, but it is in any case healthy to make a clean breast of things.
Second, I was looking at the timeline, and what a roller-coaster ride this has been. Dorothy and Walky broke up on October 12 (in-universe), and the current strip is taking place (near as I can tell) some time around October 16-18.
Please let this result in actual consequences for Amber and not just be another instance where someone is unreasonably accommodating of her because she has plot armour.
Amber, I think that Walky is going to need more than a one-sentence summary.
*cue to Gwen Stefani’s “Cool” in the background*
ooh she said it she said it… but the suspense hurt
Youknowwhatthatis?Growth.gif
Don’t mess this up Walky, they’re good now, remember?
It’s taken me until now to realise that panel 6 is Amber talking about her relationship with Sal. I dunno… Is being on the same roller-derby team the same as burying the hatchet?
It’s better than burying the knife… in her hand.
I guess it’s less “we’re cool now” and more “we are trying to reach a point where we will be cool”
Way back when I was a good little Christian in a secular college, I told myself it wasn’t wrong if porn showed up on my browser “by accident.” It was also still an “accident” as long as I only moved the scroll wheel and never clicked the mouse button. The first panel reminded me of this.
I was a weird little kid.
Not much has changed.
You’re still a little kid? What goblin did you piss off to get that curse?
Where is Amber in the last panel? The background has changed.
I think she sat up and the pov angle changed. We’re no longer seeing the floor behind her, but the wall and window.
I rag on amber a lot but I’m proud of her here. She actually came out and admitted it without trying to avoid the subject. Now let’s just hope Walky is mad that his girlfriend stabbed his sister and she faces actual consequences
Though she kind of lost the option to hide it when Sal found out so I’m giving her partial credit at best not to mention she still hasn’t fessed up to changing his grades which is something he absolutely needs to know immediately.
I really, really hope not. I mean, for us it’s been a couple of weeks since Amber found out about Walky’s sister, for her it’s been… Two days. Maybe three? To come to terms with someone she cares about being the brother of someone who is a trigger for a lot of her emotional trauma. She wasn’t actively trying to hide the connection longterm or lie to him about it.
So him exploding on her helps who, exactly? Like, I feel like that would be entirely to punish Amber for something she already regrets and hates about herself. I can’t think of any reason to root for Walky getting mad at her unless your entire point is that you hate Amber and want to see her suffer.
I want to see Amber’s mistreatment of others have actual real consequences for her beyond her own ineffectual self-flagellation. I want for once her taking her issues out on the people around her to actually cost her something and not be met with forgiveness she has made no effort to earn.
*BARF*
Oh, I see. Then the last sentence applies perfectly. Got it.
Yeah sorry, I believe in justice and people not just getting off scot-free for hurting others how disgusting.
Yeah, it really is disgusting. Because most of Amber’s “Mistreatment” of others is a direct result of intense and completely untreated psychological conditions exasperated by years upon years of abuse and trauma. All of which she is literally incapable of doing anything about because as a minor she wasn’t given the treatment she deserved and needed and as a college student resources for the mentally ill are extremely scarce and difficult to receive. And rather than approach that with any degree of empathy, you just want her to suffer for no good reason. Which reflects how real people with psychological conditions are treated on a daily basis.
Which might be forgivable if Amber did anything particularly absurdly abusive, but for the most part she just hasn’t.
She fucking stabbed someone who was unarmed and restrained and then stalked and harassed that person. She nearly got Becky and who knows how many bystanders killed with her reckless disregard for others’ safety. She threw a screaming, physically intimidating fit at Ethan for not expressing his sexuality in a way she felt appropriate. She routinely goes out and attempts to goad people into fights over petty crimes. Mental illness is not a get out of responsibility for your actions free card and Amber has made NO effort to address her issues in any remotely constructive way. She hasn’t told her mother about the problems she’s having, she hasn’t tried to hamper Amazi-girl’s activities in any way, she hasn’t even looked at the possibility of seeking treatment for even just her PTSD and anger issues through campus health services. She’s just buried her head in the sand and hoped it’d all just go away without her having to make an effort.
Stabbing people is not good. But Becky’s life was definitely already endangered. As Ethans best and closest friend she absolutely has a right to weigh in on such a monumental life choice, and screaming at homophobes isn’t something I consider in need of a comeuppance. The vigilante stuff is dicey, but we haven’t really seen her use excessive force yet. Amber has a very rough life, and made some questionable decisions, but I still am no rooting for bad things to happen to her.
Ummm… Yeah… Way to distort the facts to fit your own narrow argument. And let’s first of all establish that as fiction certain actions within this fiction will be fictionalized in order to fit into the fictitious fiction of this fictitious universe created, and so trying to create a real-world parallel is kind of silly. Specifically in regards to Amazigirl, who only vaguely follows the laws of physics and sense.
That said, arguing that she nearly got Becky killed completely ignores the fact that had she not gotten to Becky, Becky almost certainly WOULD HAVE DIED or have been TRAUMATIZED BY HER FATHER’S SUICIDE BY COP. Becky was in a closed environment with an armed man who repeatedly showed a complete lack of regard for her personal safety, was actively kidnapping her, and the police drove literally right past him. He was escalating, becoming more violent, and had no long-term plan. He became a fugitive the moment he violently kidnapped her on campus, would be chased by police, and repeatedly claimed he’d die for Becky if confronted by police. And the police, I might add, not so great at deescalation. Neither is Becky.
Now in the real world, would this stunt have worked? No, of course not. She had bulky suction cups on her, for goodness sake, and fucking caltrops. This isn’t a scene which was designed to make sense. Trying to relate it perfectly to the real world is like arguing that Batman should just invest in a better mental health system to reform his mostly mentally-ill criminals. Yeah, logically that makes perfect sense, but that isn’t a strike against Batman’s personal character because there has to be some suspension of disbelief in his existence in order for the story to exist. Even moments meant to be critical of his existence in-universe aren’t really designed to bring it completely in-line with reality. While Amazigirl exists in a closer-to-reality story, she is an element which is much closer to fiction. What she does isn’t possible, her resources aren’t real, and the plotlines she is involved in are far more exaggerated. So trying to relate her (Amazigirl, not Amber) to a character like, say, Joyce is pretty hard. Because while nothing Joyce does is really outside the realm of reality, Amazigirl… Is.
It’s also worth noting that Amber almost certainly has a form of DID in-universe. Which, while not accurate to our world, there is a distinct split between who is “Amber” and who is “Amazigirl”.
Secondly, on the stabbing, let’s start by pointing out that was about a half-decade ago when Amber was 13. 13 and freshly traumatized by a girl who had every opportunity to not hold her closest friend hostage with a knife, but chose to do so anyway. And had her trauma exasperated by her abusive father. She didn’t just decide to stab Sal for shits and giggles. Trying to remove context doesn’t make your argument look better, it just reinforces your bias. Both Amber and Sal were victims and abusers in that particular situation. Which, again, happened when they were little more than children.
Thirdly, she did not “Pitch a fit” about Ethan not expressing his sexuality in a way she approved of. She got angry because she thought Ethan was JOINING A CULT WHICH WAS TEACHING HIM TO HATE WHO HE IS. Particularly after she spent years helping him come to terms with his identity and personally receiving scorn because of it. She saw him, someone she was attracted to and who she was told “turned him gay”, trying to get involved with a Evangelist Christian girl who believes gay people go to hell. Someone who is a part of groups who literally torture gay people for the crime of existing.
I’m not saying flipping a table was the proper emotional response, but there’s a big difference between, “I want you to be gay and I’m throwing a hissy fit because you’re dating a girl” and “WHAT THE HELL??? WHY THE F ARE YOU TRYING TO JOIN A LITERAL CULT???”
Lastly, she learned to cope with trauma through fighting and self-harm. That was what her father taught her. She is lucid enough to realize that isn’t healthy, but seeking help is another hurtle entirely. I also think it’s pretty naive to assume that she is in a position to receive the help SHE needs (Depression and alcoholism, like what Ruth suffers from, is a completely different beast from what Amber experiences and Ruth’s grandfather is more economically established than Amber’s mother – who would ultimately have to pay for any treatments because mental health care almost certainly would not be covered by the tuition her father pays.) from the school – which would not be equipped to deal with her range of conditions.
Which returns me to my original point: This entire position seems to be rooted in a DEEP hate for Amber, a misunderstanding and distortion of her character, and a desire to see her suffer. It isn’t about healing, it’s about making her feel bad because you don’t like her.
Disgusting.
@Classic Appa She screamed “The fuck it is!” at Ethan while flipping the table he was sitting at in response to him telling her whether or not he returned to the closet was his decision. In no world does anyone have the right to dictate the terms of a queer person’s coming out no matter their relationship and that goes doubly for some fucking yaoi fangirl who has no goddamn clue what she’s talking about or what being out actually entails.
@Tilt I’m not wasting my time reading that novella.
What you mean to say is you don’t want to be proven wrong so you’re going to ignore everything I said and still act like you have the moral high ground.
Also: As I pointed out in my post which you are too lazy to read, her concern was largely because Ethan was getting involved in what she (rightly) perceived to be a cult which taught that gay people are sinful and should hate themselves. And after spending years trying to defend him from that mentality was angry and concerned, as well as hurt because after being told she turned him gay by a family she’s known most of her life (Feeding into body image issues), he was forming a relationship with someone else. All of which are perfectly valid emotions, which weren’t expressed well but are still worlds away from, “Duh-ruh, she wanted Ethan to be gay and got pissy because he wouldn’t fuck guys like she wanted.”
Stow your bias, it’s not impressing anyone.
No I just don’t care enough about whether or not some random stranger on the internet agrees with me to read and respond to all that shit. I have better things to do aka literally anything else.
And straight people don’t get to impose their opinions about queer people’s identities onto them. Straight people don’t get to express their negative feelings about queer people’s coming out or lack thereof by screaming at us and physically threatening us with violent outbursts. Fuck. Off.
If you have literally anything else better to do, I don’t see the point of responding, even if just to tell people to fuck off.
Also I’m queer and I agree with Tilt’s analysis of Amber’s reaction while also agreeing that Amber was in the wrong, because queer people aren’t a monolith.
Amber never expressed any fears Ethan was joining a cult, only that he was going back in the closet and Joyce, specifically, was teaching him to hate who he was. Also, Ethan came out after prom. Amber did not spend years defending him, she spent summer doing so. Yes, Amber’s allowed to be frustrated she thinks Ethan’s making a bad decision, and she’s allowed to be hurt he’d fake it with Joyce but not Amber (especially when Amber seems to have been VERY serious about Ethan – she felt like the two of them getting married would’ve been inevitable had Ethan been straight). That still doesn’t give her the right to flip tables and scream in his face about it. That is fucked up.
Also, wanting Amber to experience consequences for bad things she’s actually done is not unreasonable. Yeah, Amber and Sal both were abused kids who did fucked up things as a result of said abuse (as well as other pressing factors) but only one of them was charged and sanctioned for it (although Amber did get to watch her dad take out the smack to his ego on her mom because Blaine’s an abusive garbage heel).
The only disgusting thing here is you thinking you get to call others disgusting for wanting Amber to face consequences for things she actually did. Amber can be mentally ill and traumatized and need serious help and support and still mistreat others and do crappy things and wanting consequences for that besides her own guilt isn’t really unreasonable, especially since her reconciliation with Sal was relatively controversial.
You really are so bratty. You can attack people with mental illnesses, completely twist and omit information at your personal discretion, misrepresent scenarios, but heaven forbid someone call you on it because then you’ll act like you’re the victim and have better things to do than participate in an argument you started.
Also: While Amber’s outburst was not appropriate, it was not physically threatening to Ethan.
Also also: Not wanting Ethan to join a literal cult is not the same as imposing her opinions on him.
Also also also: Acting like her actions were at ALL rooted in wanting to control Ethan’s coming out was a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened. While she was interested in him coming out, she didn’t force that on him. She just didn’t want him dating someone who she worried would reinforce toxic mentalities. Not wanting your friend in an emotionally abusive relationship (Which dating someone who thinks you are a sinner who deserves hell would inevitably be) is not the same as controlling their sexuality. And don’t think I didn’t notice the subtle attempts to pose yourself as an expert on this subject by using “us” as though that verifies your stance. You are NOT speaking for LGBT+ people here. You sure as HELL aren’t speaking for me.
Once again, removing context doesn’t help your stance it just shows how biased you are.
Now I am going to go to bed, kindly go fuck yourself.
Love,
~A mentally ill queer girl.
@Lauralot I literally said nothing about the validity or lack thereof of Amber’s feelings regarding the situation I was talking entirely about how she expressed them to Ethan (in quite possibly the worst possible way short of physically attacking him) so I don’t even know what your point is because you’re arguing against a position I never took. I have no problem with Amber feeling hurt or concerned about Ethan’s choice I have a problem with how she treated him in response to those feelings which was very poorly and with zero respect.
BBCC, we’re going to have to disagree here because firstly while Amber never used the word cult, she did repeatedly express that Joyce was teaching him to hate himself and who he is. Arguing whether or not she specifically perceived an environment she knew would seek to brainwash and emotionally abuse him, which was the point of her concern, was a cult is really just semantics.
Secondly, wanting Amber to face consequences is completely different from actively rooting for a character to act hateful and mad at her for something that happened five years ago when she was a child. This isn’t even a FAIR moment for her to be punished for. You want her to face charges for slicing someone up? Sure, that’s fair. You want her on probation for changing Walky’s grades? Yeah, great. You want Ethan to stand up to her for dumping him over something he absolutely could not have known was a trigger? That makes absolute sense. But this? Amber didn’t even know Walky and Sal were related until a day or so ago in canon and has been trying to reconcile that. The actual stabbing happened when she was a child and it’s something she deeply regrets AND is working through with Sal. Walky himself wasn’t even present. He has no reason to get angry at her. The only reason to want him, one of her only semi-functional relationships at this point, to be mad is to see Amber – a mentally ill woman, suffer because she just hasn’t suffered enough yet.
Finally, she used the term disgusting first. I just embraced it.
@Tilt Flipping a table someone is sitting at while screaming at them is fundamentally a physically threatening act and that’s just not debatable it is an active display of violence like throwing a dinner plate at the wall during an argument.
Also for someone with such a hardon for context you sure are ignoring it in favour of claiming Ethan was joining a cult. Ethan was opting to date a girl at his college not move to her small town and join her fundamentalist church.
And if some LGBT folks are cool with their straight friends screaming at them and flipping tables in front of them because they’re uncomfortable being queer then okay that’s their prerogative but lets not pretend that’s anything but an incredibly niche (and I’d argue unhealthy) position. Some queer people think we should be in conversion therapy, doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable to posit that queer people generally think it’s awful.
@”Finally, she used the term disgusting first. I just embraced it.” God you are such a hypocrite accusing me of misrepresenting everything and then saying this when the literal first line of your response to me was “BARF” as if that isn’t in fact an even more incendiary response.
HAHAHA! Wow! I love how Joyce was a part of a group of Christians who would ABSOLUTELY be for conversion therapy, was “teaching Ethan to be straight” (Trademark of conversion therapy), and firmly believed that being gay is a sin… And yet your last point was about how most gay people would be against all of that. Do you actually think through your arguments? Like, at all?
Amber was essentially trying to keep him out of self-imposed conversion therapy via a girl who thinks unicorn doors are associated with being gay. Which, again, I am not excusing her actions, clearly flipping a table was wrong, but let’s not forget WHY.
And your attempt at “context” is flimsy at best, since he wasn’t JUST dating a girl at college, he was dating a girl from a fundamentalist Christian community who was trying to reform his sexuality and turn him straight. Who she originally was worried about because she thought Ethan was lying to, before realizing that she was just a Christian girl trying to CONVERT him straight.
Tell me again how queer people feel about conversion therapy?
As someone who’s been tricked into joining two cults, I don’t think it is semantics. Cult is not a term to fuck around with, and in this case, Amber didn’t know Joyce from Adam. Her objection wasn’t ‘cult’ (unless Amber considers all of Christianity to be such, which would be strange considering Amber herself is Catholic), her objection is that Ethan wants to be straight again and Joyce is willing to date him. And while it is absolutely fair to believe it’s a bad decision and even be angry because she’s frustrated, Amber was WAY out of line in that scene. She has a bit of a problem with making things about Ethan about her (and yes, that generally comes from a place of caring and protectiveness and from her own trauma, but there’s a reason Ethan told her last storyline that he has the right to make his own choices about his trauma, even if they’re choices she doesn’t like).
I don’t think anybody’s particularly rooting for Walky to be hateful here, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want Walky to be angry on Sal’s behalf, especially when a LOT of people were unsatisfied by Sal and Amber’s reconciliation. Nor did I use the word ‘punish’. I used consequences. For example, Sal’s habit of getting in fights is rooted in an admirable sense of justice and wanting to stop people who hurt others. However, the way she goes about it comes with a lot of splash back for Marcie. Marcie deciding not to speak to her until she’s satisfied Sal’s actually working on addressing her concerns wasn’t a punishment, but it was a consequence and I don’t think it was unreasonable. Hell, by this logic, Sal was a kid acting out due to abuse and other traumas too, but Amber’s not unreasonable for being angry with her and unwilling to forgive her when she realizes who Sal is (though stalking and harassing her is, again, WAY outta line). I don’t think it would be unreasonable for Walky to be angry or upset with Amber because he’s learned Amber stabbed his sister. Yes, Amber was a kid in a terrible situation, but stabbing your boyfriend’s sister is going to be the kind of thing that tends to cause a reaction, especially because Walky does care about his sister. Sure, Amber only found out the other day that she was his sister, and I don’t think it’s wrong to wait a couple days to work up to telling him, but that doesn’t make it unreasonable for him to be upset, even just in the normal ‘You stabbed my sister’ sense. I’d hope nobody’s cheering for him to be abusive or an ass about it, but just anger is neither of those things. And Sal working to move on with Amber doesn’t obligate Walky to forgive her, especially since he’s only just finding out.
Emily used disgusting sarcastically about herself and her own positions. Don’t try to flip that around into an equivalence of you calling her disgusting and a brat to boot. Knock it off.
BBCC, I know you are strongly anti-Amber and that’s coloring your perspective and alignment here. I get that.
Firstly because when someone wants to change who you fundamentally are to fit into their religious views, that’s pretty damn cult-like behavior. If I met someone who told me that could turn me straight, I’d turn and run. Whether or not Joyce meant it maliciously, wanting to alter a fundamental part of who someone is in that way is destructive. I want to say she even specifically used the term brainwashed, though I’d have to check to be sure and I just don’t feel like it right now. Also, and speaking as someone raised Catholic here, people who believe that you can change someone’s sexuality are usually from very abusive religious circles. It’s not minimizing the severity of cults to say that if someone believes they can/should change your sexuality to please their god, that you should stay away from that person.
Secondly, again, I feel like this is a matter of presentation and scale. Being interested in seeing Walky’s reaction, which could possibly include anger, is different than gleefully announcing how you want to see him angry and see Amber get the punishment you feel she deserves.
Thirdly, I feel like it should be mentioned that my original response to the thread was reasoned and calm. I said I hope he doesn’t get mad, explained why I don’t want to see anger, and said I don’t understand why anyone would want him to get upset with her in this particular scenario because it doesn’t seem to serve any narrative purpose except to see Amber suffer. To which Emily responded in a snotty and rude way about “self-flagellation” and wanting to see Amber face consequences (For???) and I replied barf because she was confirming what I had said before about just wanting to see Amber suffer for the sake of seeing her suffer. It doesn’t matter the context or why someone should upset or hurt her, it just matters that someone does it. Which, as someone from a physically and emotionally abusive home, and who is mentally ill as a result, I find the idea of to be very troubling and gross.
Tilt, this entire time you are going at this as if Emily is not also a queer person and her opinion is thus invalid.
Amber is valid to be upset that Ethan is doing something unhealthy by closeting himself and dating a fundamental Christian girl who plans to ‘turn him’ straight and later on convert him despite him being Jewish. However, screaming at him and yelling at him in the way that she did does not convey that concern. Instead, it’s blaming him for his choices and it’s showing an incredible lack of consideration that Ethan is 18, still dependent upon his homophobic parents, and that it might in fact be safer for him in the closet at the moment, regardless of the struggles that she went through during the summer to defend him. Because it completely ignores his own struggles this entire time. Ethan told her he is making the decision to stay in the closet at the moment, and Amber flips a table at him and says he’s not in charge of that decision. She does not get to yell at him in public, and as much as she should take Joyce to task for it to, she doesn’t get to yell at her in public and out Ethan at the same time.
And a lot of that was influenced by her jealousy that Ethan would fake it for Joyce, but not for her. It is fundamentally wrong to say that her reaction was born out of altruism and concern for Ethan’s welfare when Amber has an explicit selfish interest in it. She spent all summer defending Ethan and trying to get him to come to terms with being gay. Ethan wanting to go back into the closet for his own safety and for the sake of his relationship with his parents feels like a betrayal to her, because she’s thinking about her invested time and emotional labor this past summer. And her feelings for that are valid, but her behavior is not and should have consequences. It is absolutely controlling to scream “THE FUCK IT IS” when a queer person tells you that they are making the decision to go back into the closet. Also: flipping a table, grabbing at Joyce, and making fists at her and needing to be restrained is absolutely physically aggressive and threatening. Like, it wasn’t just that she flipped a table. That entire sequence she was physically trying to intimidate people. And that is wholly inappropriate.
Signed, a mentally ill queer nb.
Now I’m just laughing because I really love Amber. Trust me, if you’re looking for someone who’s ‘anti-Amber’, your princess is in another castle.
You should definitely stay away from people who try to change your sexuality. I don’t disagree with that. I do disagree with saying Ethan was joining a cult, because he clearly was not. There’s all sorts of non-cult religions who say they can pray the gay away. They’re fucking assholes for trying to do so, but they’re not cults. And yeah, it is brainwashing, which is a feature of cults but not the sole one and it comes up in all sorts of situations, including non-cult but still asshole religions. Amber was absolutely right to call Joyce on it and ask her where the screaming blue fuck she got off. The part that was out of line was flipping tables and screaming in Ethan’s face. That’s not okay, no matter how justified her frustration or anger is.
Again, there’s a difference between punishment and consequences. I’ve seen plenty of people saying they would consider therapy an acceptable consequence for all sorts of crappy things Amber does. And again, I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong for people to want to see Walky be angry, especially, again, when they found Sal and Amber’s reconciliation unsatisfying or insufficient because Amber didn’t have to apologize or do anything to get Sal to forgive her for stalking and harassing her, which was made worse in the context of learning Amber was the one who stabbed her (in a contrasting example from the same storyline, when Sal realized who Ethan was, she tracked him down to apologize and offer things she could do for him. He didn’t take her up on it until she insisted, but the offer helped a lot of people see it as Sal working for forgiveness). Yes, AG made an apology, but it was vague, unspecific and was without the full relevant context of the situation. As for Emily, she’s made her problem clear several times – That Amber/AG hurts and or mistreats people (yes, often out of trauma and her own issues, but that doesn’t make it not mistreatment or hurtful) and is forgiven without needing to apologize or do anything for it. Heck, Walky being angry also serves narrative purposes of A) Continuing the storyline between Amber and Sal, which isn’t going away because of one happy moment. B) Complicating the new relationship. Everyone likes relationship drama. …Well, I do anyways. It gives Amber and Walky a chance to grow and develop on each other. C) Again, wanting Amber to have consequences for a thing she actually did beyond her own guilt isn’t necessarily unreasonable. That IS a context for wanting Amber to have consequences. And the context of that story isn’t the same as just wanting Amber to suffer for suffering’s sake. A lot of people were hoping Joyce would lose Jacob’s friendship if he learned she was trying to meddle in his relationship with Raidah. That was for a narrative reason of wanting their to be consequences for her behaviour and wanting to see where she’d go from there. I understand where you’re coming from, and I’m sorry you’ve gone through an abusive home. You didn’t deserve that. I don’t think that your reasoning follows that people who want Amber to have consequences for her behaviour (such as someone being upset or angry by it) though. I haven’t seen anybody saying Walky should be abusive or cruel or hurtful or go out of his way to upset her (except inasmuch as relationship issues are inherently upsetting).
Pam, I did not mention neither my personal mental health nor my sexuality until after Emily began using “us” when referring broadly to to the gay/queer community as though she were speaking on behalf of everyone within this community. Which I am a part of. At which point, I pointed out my own sexuality and mental illness to cut off her attempts at positioning herself as an authority. It was not to gatekeep her, it was to prevent her from attempting to gatekeep me.
Again, not defending her actions. Flipping tables, yelling, and screaming aren’t appropriate. Though, while I do think her feelings for Ethan definitely played a role in that outburst, especially since she broke down about him not being able to try with her (and I will note again, she faced verbal abuse as a result of trying to help him), I do still think genuine concern played a role in why she was so angry. You can approach a topic from a place of concern, and still act pretty shitty.
I really do feel like the worst of her actions would be tempered if she got some mental health help. People getting mad at her won’t be nearly as effective as a therapist and some well-prescribed medicine.
Amber desperately needs help. No one is in contention with that.
But I disagree that facing any kind of social consequences would be ineffectual. It could be an incentive for Amber to get help and work through her issues if someone held her accountable for things she’s done and said. It could also backfire. But currently, no one has really held Amber accountable for any of her actions and kind of forgiven her immediately, even when she hasn’t apologized or tried to make up for it, and I think that can also incredibly unhealthy.
– Ethan did not get upset at her at all for what happened in the lunchroom, and Amber doesn’t fully apologize, but says that she was terrible for exploding at them and her acknowledgment of her behavior is that it’s ‘weird’ and ‘erratic’ (she said ‘sorry’ as she ran away but that could easily be about her crying and running away because she remembered her trauma)
– Danny was consistently the one trying to make things up to Amber after she/AG yelled at him for talking to Sal, and when he did confront her on AG working together with Sal, she deflected and somersaulted away from the truth. Later on, Danny asks the same question Ethan did earlier “Are we friends again?” and Amber said he shouldn’t take back someone who doesn’t apologize, and that apologies don’t mean anything if you can’t stop the behavior from happening, with no indication of if she plans on stopping the behavior from happening.
– Even just recently, Sal was the one that had to facilitate the reconciliation after confronting Amber on hiding their past and stalking/harassing her at college before building up a friendship with her as both Amber and AG, and for most of that Amber remained hostile.
No one’s saying Amber needs to be punished or screamed at or ostracized or abused. But that Amber could and should be the one to make things right for something, and put some effort into reconciliation with someone. The closest she gets is with Ethan, where she acknowledges what she did was terrible, but she doesn’t fully apologize and redirects it to her being ‘erratic’. I think it would be healthier overall for Amber if she starts the reconciliation process herself for once instead of thinking of herself as a horrible, awful person undeserving of love and forgiveness. And obviously it’s not easy, and it takes a while to get to that point, but Amber needs to get at that point. And if what it takes is Walky being upset at her for being the girl that stabbed his sister and then went on to date him, then I don’t think that’s terrible at all.
Pam, I am not sure where you are going with this reply? Like, we were talking about gatekeeping, which I wasn’t doing, and now we’re onto people standing up to Amber, which I said does need to happen? Like, half of these I gave as examples of what kind of confrontations should happen with Amber.
I am not against people in canon having a falling out with Amber and her reconciling her behavior. I just don’t think THIS is the best moment. Of all the people who could/should hold Amber accountable for her actions, Walky on this subject is the bottom of my list. It feels like people are wanting to just see her punished for something by someone. It doesn’t matter who or why, which is what bothers me. Because at that point it doesn’t feel like they want to see story progression or character growth, they just want to see a specific character they hate in pain.
People want Amber to be hurt for the sake of being hurt. She flipped a table, so Walky should get angry at her and make her suffer. She was mean to Danny, so Walky should get angry at her and make her suffer. She shook her fists at Joyce, so Walky should get angry at her and make her suffer. None of these points are even connected.
And I just don’t see how Walky getting pissed would get her to reconcile anything, especially if you’re looking for Amber to start apologizing to people properly. Sal was the one person she said sorry to openly and directly, after all.
Re: gatekeeping, the only time Emily used “us” or “we” was in the explicit example of straight people yelling at queer people and physically intimidating them regarding their choices for their identity expression, which actually happened in comic of Amber yelling at Ethan. You later agreed that Amber was physically intimidating Ethan in that exchange. Emily was saying that was inappropriate for any straight person to do to a queer person, and gave her opinion that it would be unhealthy for a queer person to be okay with that. And you agreed that it was inappropriate when both BBCC and myself said this. But when Emily said it, and used ‘us’ in the example, it was gatekeeping. I don’t see how that was gatekeeping, though. That was an opinion, one that I share. No straight person ever has the right to treat me the way that Amber treated Ethan in that moment, regardless of what mental illness issues they have at that moment or if they think they are doing what is wrong for me. True, Emily does not speak for all queer people, and I don’t think she was really trying to. But you, however, ended one of your posts with “Tell me again how queer people feel about conversion therapy?” which is very gatekeepy and honestly doesn’t make sense to me, since you were also arguing that Ethan was trying to convert himself. Which.. goes with Emily’s point of how some queer people want to do conversion therapy, but the majority think it’s terrible.
We were also talking about Ethan’s perspective in the whole lunchroom debacle, or at least I was, and his opinion about the whole thing. And much like Amber ignoring them in the heat of the moment, it was also ignored in favor of talking about Amber’s feelings. I agreed that Ethan’s actions and choices in that scene were not healthy in any way, but Amber is still not justified to have done so in any way because as I tried to repeatedly state: if her concern was for Ethan’s safety and health, that did not make anything safe for Ethan at all.
My reply is in direct relation to your last point, and a repeatedly stated point of yours, that someone getting mad at Amber would not be helpful at all to her. And I disagree. There is a lot that Walky could get upset at Amber about on Sal’s behalf if he knew about it, and maybe him confronting her about it might help her have a realization that she goes to Sal to rectify further. Because reconciliation is not something that just has to happen once, it can happen multiple times. And if Walky knows the full context that Sal knows- Amber stabbed her as kids, stalked and harassed her as adults, and then befriended her and started dating him while keeping the both of them in the dark, before finally fighting Sal on the steps outside the dorm- he could go “wtf why would you do that” and start a conversation with Amber about it. It could lead into Walky finding out she changed his grades and lied about it. It could also lead Walky to starting a conversation with Sal about it, and reconciling with her because he understands her pain better. But I don’t think Walky get upset is unreasonable, nor would it be making Amber suffer unnecessarily. She still didn’t acknowledge any of the other things that she/AG did to Sal. She apologized, but what was it for? The stabbing? The stalking? The fight? Everything? There’s still so much that Sal and Amber need to work through, and they’re trying to just sweep past it all, and there’s bound to be resentment still built up. Now, Walky wouldn’t be justified in getting angry and verbally abusive towards Amber, but I don’t think that’s what anyone else is wanting. But some kind of confrontation with Amber isn’t inherently bad, and it’s not necessarily going to be negative. It could be a moment of realization for both of them, that their whole belief going into this relationship that they’re both “garbage who deserve each other” and don’t need to grow or work on themselves is unhealthy.
The only person who connected Walky confronting Amber as a consequence of finding out the truth and Walky exploding at Amber about this situation is you. Confrontation doesn’t have to be loud, it doesn’t have to physical, it doesn’t have to be negative. BBCC pointed out Marcie taking a step back from Sal as a result of being negatively impacted by being near her as a consequence of her actions. The same thing can happen her. Walky can look at Amber and go, “Hey, I can’t be around someone that did these things to my sister” and leave. And even if the big thing happened 5 years ago when they were children, these things were clearly still happening as of last night, when they beat the shit out of each other.
So here’s my deal on the whole Amber/Ethan/Joyce situation. The “Prime Directive,” so to speak is people get to deal with their sexuality on their own terms. All’s reasonable so far. But one of the underlying assumptions for high schoolers is that this shit gets easier after high school. You’ll get to meet other gay kids, people are less entrenched in their social views, life is just bound to get better for homosexuals in college. So to see your best friend go to college, and then recede back into a homophobic viewpoint has to be very painful. Not only because you see them harming themselves, but also because your optimism turned out to be misplaced, but ultimately invalid. Turns out their is no safe harbor and that is justifiably infuriating. So when you find someone who exemplifies this outlook, ensuring that people who love in defiance of the mainstream fee orchestrated and unnatural. The people who have destroyed your vision of what college could and should of been, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to lose your shit at them.
I think it’s absolutely unreasonable to lose your shit at the gay person actually going through that when you are not in any way LGBT. That is putting the straight person’s thoughts and feelings above the gay person’s and it’s grossly inappropriate in any situation.
I’ve said before that Amber absolutely should take Joyce to task over her role in that debacle, and I shed no tears for Joyce being called out on her shit. But the thing that has been repeatedly stated by me and by others is that she had no right to do that to Ethan, who is the actual gay person involved. It’s much like Roz yelling at Joyce (which I also don’t disapprove of) against the wishes of Leslie, the actual lesbian in the room.
No one here ever said Amber yelling at Joyce was bad. Everyone is saying it was bad for her to have yelled and tried to physically intimidate Ethan.
Pam, I am absolutely not approaching this as though Emily weren’t also queer. I’m just not approaching this as though she is an authority on what it means to be queer.
Secondly, multiple times this discussion I have said Amber’s actions weren’t appropriate. That isn’t even up for debate here. I said that I think three separate times (Though once I did say it wasn’t physically threatening, in retrospect that was wrong)? I also noted that a part of her motivation was that she had feelings for Ethan and resented that he was willing to fake it for Joyce but not her and how that may have further exasperated body image issues.
My position isn’t about whether Amber’s ACTIONS were right. Clearly, they aren’t. Flipping a table is inappropriate. Breaking up with Danny for talking to Sal is inappropriate. Lying to Dorothy about who beat her father was inappropriate. This isn’t about whether or not her actions were right or wrong. They were wrong. Period. It’s about whether or not her motivations were coming from an abusive, controlling, or cruel place.
I also really feel like saying he was going back in the closet misrepresents what was happening. It wasn’t that he was going back in the closet, it was that he was trying to convert himself. That is something very, very different. Ethan didn’t say, “Joyce knows I am gay but she is playing along because I’m not ready to be out yet” he said he was trying to be someone he isn’t. That just isn’t the same thing.
But you are, whether you realize it or not, once you put your credentials out there as a mentally ill girl you are trying to gatekeep the discussion because you inherently have more authority regarding the discussion of mental illness/queer identity. Which is why I put my credentials out there.
I acknowledge that you repeated that you also found it inappropriate, but at the same time you defended her actions as all from coming from a place of worry, which is what I was responding to. Amber was worried about Ethan, sure, but she also had a selfish interest in Ethan’s identity and did not at any point consider why he might go back into the closet or why he might go along with any of Joyce’s bs. It was unhealthy. I am not at any point saying that Ethan deciding to go along with Joyce was healthy in any way. But Amber screaming at him and trying to physically assert herself in public against the two of them does not put Ethan in a healthier place. It doesn’t help Ethan feel safer about being out, when Amber’s screaming in public that he’s gay and being forced to convert. Ethan’s agency is being taken away from him because of Amber’s concern and frankly it was not her place to do so. Notably, she ignored Ethan’s opinion the entire time during that sequence and in earlier scenes when he expressed doubt about being gay or wanting to go into the closet because of his mom. That’s the part that’s controlling. Yes, she wants the best for Ethan, but she also won’t listen to him when he’s trying to tell her something.
*mentally ill queer girl
somehow missed that in my original write up
Oh no! That’s why I couldn’t respond to you, I thought that my responses were bugged, I didn’t realize you were responding to my reply directly. That’s a lot easier than scrolling up for three pages!
My response is a little further up, do you see it? ^^; If not, I can repost.
I said Ethan, I meant Danny. I just got off a 12 hour shift at work.
I think that thread is getting too long, it just dumped my reply mid-thread. =/
Aw poor Walky. He doesn’t know how to handle this.
I really want to hear Joyce’s internal monologue right about now.
Can’t… stop… scrolling.
The comments section these days whenever Sal or Amber shows up just makes me so sad. It seems like it’s impossible to have a discussion sympathetic to either one’s issues without being accused of excusing their actions or blaming the other. As someone who struggles with mental illness, a lot of the discussion around Amber specifically actually makes me feel scared to talk about my own issues for fear that people would think I’m using it as an excuse for everything. I know that’s stupid and I should probably just stop reading the comment section, but it’s disheartening.
I apologize if I am feeding into it. =S I do try to take a moderate stance on them, they’re both complex and divisive characters and deserve better than blind hate. But arguing probably doesn’t help any.
It’s okay. You haven’t demonized either one that I’ve seen, or brushed off child abuse/racism/mental illness/etc. to make one look better than the other. It seems like that happens all the time here, in both directions.
This is what I get for replying on mobile and thinking I know how to capitalize my email to keep my gravatar consistent.
I do the same thing, don’t worry.
Also I notice someone who DID do exactly that justifying their actions below and just… Gosh they’re terrible.
Could this please not carry over into this discussion?
Ah. Right. Not trying to do that.
Normally my temper and judgement aren’t quite this bad.
I’m sorry things are rough right now, Lauralot. It doesn’t help that with Sal and Amber both are very complicated characters and the situation is complicated. Sometimes it’s hard to acknowledge what one does wrong without excusing the other or being overly condemnatory. I think the ending of the last storyline didn’t help, as it came wrapped in a lot of issues and a context of harmful tropes (I’m still of two minds about it myself). Regardless, though, you’re cool, and while you may lash out at people sometimes, you still have worth.
Thanks. I always enjoy your comments.
I agree. And it’s not just Sal and Amber, though they’ve been prominent thanks to the fight.
The level of vitriol around here seems much higher in general than it used to be. Or maybe my tolerance is just fading. Partly we haven’t seen much of the real villains lately and it’s been more characters in conflict with each other.
Pick a side and demonize the other one. But Joyce gets torn apart every time she appears. Walky gets his share. And so much of it seems over the top to me. Even something as silly as those Lucy and Billie strips degenerated into insults.
All these characters have flaws. Often serious ones. And good points. That’s why I like them.
I’ve been trying to back off on defending them too, since it just seems to escalate anyway.
Yeah, I don’t know what the catalyst is, but the comments have seemed as a whole much angrier and more combative as of late. I’d say maybe it’s the holidays, but this has been happening since at least Jacob’s last appearance if not earlier.
Part of it is character arcs taking years to progress. Like, watching Joyce walk all over someone’s boundaries for the 835th time over the course of 8 years with little development or watching Billie revert to being an arrogant jerkass after FINALLY getting some character development on that front after like 6 years of “Billie HBOC” is really frustrating and it just starts to feel like half of these characters are in stasis.
Historically, this comment section has been very tolerant and accepting of people from diverse backgrounds and with different opinions. This may have made it seem like a safe place for those who are angry at being treated unfairly to express some of that anger. Unfortunately, not everybody has the empathy to say “OK, that person is angry, but I can at least imagine why, even though I don’t share their perspective”. Instead, some people react defensively – usually with hostility – which leads to an escalating war of words as each tries to prove thay are “right”. Sadly, that makes this space feel less safe and welcoming.
There is much injustice in the world to be angry at, and trump is busily making it worse as fast as he can and as much as he can, because that is what persuades his base to get out and vote for him. We are seeing a tiny fraction of that here. This is regrettable, but it is a reflection of real life right now.
I would like to remind everyone that two people can have different opinions about the same thing, and both be “right” because they are both basing their response on their experiences. It is helpful to be able – or at least to try – to see things from the other person’s point of view. But I’m probably pissing upwind here. The people who most need to do this are the ones who find it most difficult. It doesn’t help that society really is unfair, and that this is not obvious to those who don’t suffer from that unfairness (unless they look – and why would they? Then they’d have to admit their own complicity).
What’s… weird and kinda sad is I hope Walky actually is angry at Amber about this? Like maybe not permanently angry. But after 18 years of not taking his sister’s issues seriously, not understanding that they were treated differently, I’d like to see him stand up for her for once. This is entirely the wrong time and situation to do it, but where’s the fun in it if his first time goes well?
You. You get me.
I don’t know if angry is the right word, but I’d definitely like to see him go from…well, anywhere from ‘automatically decide to go scream at Sal for the fight’ territory.
I would rather see that anger directed at their mother, personally. I feel like Amber and Sal are catalysts for each other’s suffering, but not directly tied to it enough for me to personally root for this to be the moment which snaps Walky into being personally involved in Sal’s life. Also, since Sal is trying to move on, I don’t see how it would actually help him see eye to eye with her.
I’m not against someone talking some sense into Amber, don’t get me wrong, but just not all that eager to see that moment be over something that happened when she was 13, over five years ago in canon.
I’d love for this to be a moment of clarity, personally. Sal knows more about what Amber went through now, but Amber still doesn’t know Sal’s motivation. She still thinks Sal did something wrong to do something wrong, whereas Walky knows the deeper reason – whether he expresses it or not. Him starting to explain what Sal did and realizing, holy crap his racist mom caused this by stealing Sal’s money, and him realizing what a butt he was for being so flippant about Sal trying to help her friend would be a lot more satisfying for me, personally.
… Does Walky even know about that?
Sal was whisked away pretty quick.
He might not even know.
Hm… As much as I think it’s possible that Walky’s parents would want to shelter him from what happened to Sal, it’d be pretty hard to cover up entirely. Sal would have to be in the hospital, there’d likely be rumors about her floating around, etc.
Ah, that first panel. I know how you feel, Joyce…