We know at least one of those people in the windows (Dorothy) did indeed see the fight take place; she’s not tagged today though, which may imply that she ran off to get an authority figure involved as others have speculated.
I’m not quite convinced yet if we know those silhouettes are witnesses. They’ve been in the background this entire time. Unless we see reactions and faces I’m gonna assume it’s open season. Dorothy, Ethan, and Danny are the only absolutes. We can’t even confirm Marcie’s seen anything yet.
“Everyone else” is Danny and Ethan, who are both pretty reserved people. Malaya isn’t. She likely would have shouted (or made some kind of disparaging comment deliberately loud enough for Sal to hear).
This is a very serious comic, but if you need some levity you can just imagine that in the last panel Amber is actually saying “HOOOOO” like Lion-O the Thundercat.
I think you meant revelationary. Though I also wouldn’t mind if Sal and Amber became revolutionaries and started an uprising against an oppressive regime.
Please please let this end up with both of them getting to a better space about this. They need therapy and hugs from friends. (I’m sentimental garbage on Thanksgiving but I really just wanna see ALL these kids get hugs, tbh,)
Heck, if Sal just hugged her, dropped the iron was of cool and just said “I’m sorry” over and over again.
That might cause amber to reciprocate and actually burst into tears instead of unbridled rage.
Huh. . . I . . .I am glad that this is how it is ending. Sal has just realized something internally, Amber has her internal vindication and pride, no one is seriously hurt, and there are no security guards racing out to grab them.
If this is the end of it then I will be incredibly happy. But there is always a possibility of something going wrong. Willis showed Dorothy for a reason, and with her respect for Authority I can see her going to grab an RA or security in an attempt to help stop this before it goes any further. I hope that I may be overthinking things but we shall see.
Mh. This could easily be another traumatic experience for Amber. Not being able to breathe, slowly suffocating, not being sure if she survives this. I think that would count as being seriously hurt.
I could be wrong, but I think she’s going to take that earlier triumph and work with that instead. And even that at least as much as the internal “faced my demon and didn’t lost control” kind of victory as the more temporary “could beat her in a fight” kind.
As Cerberus said a couple days ago, they were both shadow-boxing. They both won.
ok I don’t want to say “most”, but a lot of bullies realize that they have gone too far and might have seriously hurt another person. This is probably a combination of basic empathy and fear of getting caught.
The fact that Leland is LAUGHING as the runs away and steals Marcie’s skateboard means he has no empathy, no decency towards the person he nearly murdered. I shudder, honestly
I’d seriously want to understand the psychology behind the typical bully… I’ve been bullied in my school days and I honestly can’t make myself think that bullies might’ve any empathy or decency. If you have these, you don’t start bullying someone, period…
I was bullied as a kid and I saw some bullies show remorse and regret, so some bullies DO realize they were acting shitty. Usually those are the “caved in to peer pressured and bullied the strange kid along with the rest of the class” types of bullies. The instigators not so much
Generally, it’s not that bullies don’t have empathy, it’s just that they don’t think through the consequences of their actions. Many are hurting or feel powerless in their own lives. Bullying allows them to assert control over another person. It makes them feel powerful, which is what most bullies are lacking outside of this dynamic. It doesn’t help that they often get praise from peers for showing “strength.” They are so focused on making themselves feel powerful that they don’t really think about what they are doing to the other person.
Actual children bullies have plenty of chances to learn empathy- it’s something everyone learns at one pace or another. Usually when you don’t learn that particular lesson it’s because adults are shielding you from it (or actively harming you if you show signs of it), and many times that doesn’t change, but sometimes it does.
Even most toddlers will smile if someone smiles at them and get sad, when people around them are sad. Until they learn to become angry when someone cries from their parents or whoever is in loco parentis.
That children need to learn about consequences (i.e. that someone will hurt if you hit them) is a different thing.
Huh, ok, several sources say that’s not quite so, as mirroring others feelings in very young children has something to do with not distinguishing between self and other and empathy needs that distinction. So they lean it somewhere between 2 and 4 years old.
Bullying is a behavior where the bullies ignore empathy with the victim (by defining them as ‘not people’ in some way or other) and gain positive feelings be being in control of th situation or th positive feedback from their also bullying peers or adults who define the victims as ‘not people (like us)’, too.
It’s a situation where empathy is suppressed and not presen.
A psychopath is always unable to be empathetic.
Not quite. Very specific people tend to be more likely to be bullied – kids of colour, LGBT kids, disabled kids (especially if they’re autistic), fat kids, poor kids, etc. Kids who aren’t seen as ‘normal’, basically. Which feeds into why it’s so easy to define them as ‘not people’. For instance, while one of my so called best friends as a kid was always a liar and always very toxic, it wasn’t until I started having to sit out of gym because of my heart condition things really ramped up.
That said, psychopathy is no longer considered a real thing and what once may have been called psychopathy does have a lack of cognitive empathy (being able to feel other’s feelings as a sort of echo) but does not preclude the ability to like others and wanting them to be happy.
As medical concepts evolve, they change. What is the current term for what was previously defined as psychopathy? Did this lead to a higher number on people diagnosed with it? Has the actual definition changed?
Has anyone come up with a therapy that actually helps them to learn about empathy or at least learn something else that has the same result (i.e. being able to discard ideas of how to achieve an aim where persons with empathy would discard them because of empathy even if empathy is a foreign concept?)
That said, if you want to find a reason to not see someone as human, you will find a reason, even if it is the wrong hair-style, (not) painted nails, or the way they react to loud noise. Though rigid social concepts provide people with ammunition and more back-up on this ideas, in the end anything can be used that way.
It’s kind of been considered with a variety of things (including antisocial behavioral disorder or whatever it’s called currently – I don’t exactly read the DSM-5 for fun,) and kind of considered ‘okay we may have been pathologizing and demonizing something that isn’t a given marker for Trouble, actually.’ There are studies showing that, say, surgeons tend to score low on the empathy scales – more empathic people would have much more trouble functioning in that environment because of the high stress and stakes. Now whether that’s natural low empathy or their brains shutting it off as a protective measure is another question entirely, but *shrug*. Not a Psych person.
There’s also a degree of low empathy (or perceived) in play with autistic people, but we vary a lot – some of us are hyperempathic, taking other people’s emotions on as our own, and others can’t really place ourselves in another’s shoes and take empathy on like that but do have really high SYMPATHY for others, and recognizing all of it requires a level of emotional vocabulary and awareness that’s difficult because of our brains. Also since we don’t always instinctively mirror facial expressions and map them to mood people don’t always think we’re feeling things that we are, and then we can’t explain it. Especially with kids, who haven’t figured out the coping mechanisms they need to proceed.
Empathy is not fully developed in children or teenagers. Your teenage years are where it fully develops. That is why you will have heard terms like ‘all kids are sociopaths’. Saying they completely lack empathy is inaccurate though – there are two types of empathy: affective (feeling what others feel e.g. if your best friend is sad you might not full out sob with them, but your mood might lower, you might shed a tear or two yourself if you have fairly high affective empathy or if you have hyperempathy) and cognitive (being able to understand logically what someone is feeling, why, what caused it).
In someone with Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) where empathy is low or non-existant (notably, I have noticed a few people diagnosed with it saying their empathy for animals is much higher than for people while others lack empathy for either), the empathy that is low is affective. They struggle to or cannot feel what someone else is feeling. If someone walks into the room sad, their mood doesn’t react by itself. If someone comes into their room crying, their mood doesn’t inherently lower. Their emotions do not change simply based on other emotions being present in the same space as them or it has a very limited effect at best.
Their cognitive empathy level though can vary a lot because that can be learned. You can’t learn to feel something you don’t, but you can learn to logically put pieces of a puzzle together. Some will have low cognitive empathy – their inability to feel what others do can have a knock on effect of them not understanding why others feel the way they do. Others will have decent or high cognitive empathy though – they might not feel what you feel but they’ll be able to work it out and understand why your feelings are what they are.
So someone with ASPD may not feel what you feel and may struggle to understand why you are feeling what you are. It doesn’t mean they’ll actually be a cruel, mean or sadistic person though. Kids don’t have fully developed empathy and are all of them cruel monsters? No. Plenty of them have been taught the right lessons and try their best to be kind. This is true for all conditions with low empathy: it’s not inherently going to make them act cruel. Just as hyperempathy is not going to necessarily make you act kind.
Someone with low empathy in both ways might understand absolutely nothing about why you are upset about something and still express sympathy and compassion that helps you feel better while someone with hyperempathy and high cognitive empathy could be an asshole edgelord.
The way to help people with low empathy treat people right is literally just to teach them what you would teach children. These are possible consequences. This is how people might feel. Hurting people needlessly is wrong. They can get it. Plenty of them do and succeed in society.
As for whether ‘psychopathy’ has a medical term to cover it… that is complicated. It isn’t officially a diagnosis at all and never really was. Antisocial Personality Disorder is and people with it tend to refer to it as sociopathy or psychopathy, and I’ve seen at least a couple argue that they are the same thing which could be true as traits described as psychopathic (being methodical, emotionally controlled, calculated) could easily be counter balances to those that are described as sociopathic (being careless, easily angered, impulsive). There is not a perfect consensus on it and it really does not help that the guy who made the Psychopathy Checklist, Robert Hare can’t seem to agree with himself on which has which trait despite insisting they are different.
So ASPD is a thing. Is psychopathy a separate thing? I veer towards no at this current time. You might think differently and that’s fine.
Yeah this kid attacked her once with no known provocation, and then years down the line goes after her with a ROCK to the NECK? Presumably because Sal went after him when he got off scot-free, and I have to imagine there were interactions before that because… yikes. Even if Sal and Marcie weren’t on the receiving end of Leland in that time, that cannot have been his only instances of assault.
I hope we don’t see more Leland in the present. I don’t think anything good can come from this guy showing up.
Leland is truly evil if he can commit minor crimes after big crimes. It is like hitting someone in the head with a hammer, and then just casually steal chocolate from a store.
I need to take a moment to say this strip’s visual storytelling is beautiful. So much conveyed, basically without words. It’s lovely and sad and perfect.
I know I keep saying it, but Willis, the art is AMAZING lately. <3 It's always been great, but it's been on fire particularly lately. You've been kicking ass, Willis.
If you compare with the previous strip, possibly because she realized she was holding a sharp object to someone’s throat. Just like Leland did to Marcie.
Honestly I’m not entirely certain they’re literal and not a metaphor (Sal reaching across time, seeing the parallel, and making a different choice,) but if she did realize then it’s not surprising and makes Amber stabbing her afterward feel even more incongruous to Sal. I’ll see tomorrow, that probably is more likely. Either way the imagery’s beautiful.
To me, Panel 3 suggests that she was also reacting to Amber’s total collapse into terrified hysteria. Sal has just now remembered this and is now wondering just how much of all of this is her own fault.
Not as much as her self-loathing would like, of course. However, it’s going to take a while for Sal to learn and process just how totally Blaine’s abuse has scrambled Amber’s brain.
Yeah, that’s totally new. I doubt it’s alteration or false memory or anything like that. We’ve never seen anything between taking Ethan as hostage and her being held by the cops outside before, IIRC.
We never saw how the hostage situation resolved. Now we have. Sal let him go. And probably surrendered.
Yeah, I think it being a factual reveal is most likely, but reading it initially as a ‘Sal taking the chance to do what she realizes now she should have five years ago’ moment gave me Emotions so a tiny part of me hopes it is metaphorical.
If this is a recall that Amber doesn’t really remember, though, that’s also great – It means Blaine was wrong about Amber doing nothing. Being the terrified kid freaking out was what stopped Sal WITHOUT it having to escalate to bloodshed* and Amber’s natural freeze and terror response did serve the purpose freeze responses are intended to.
* It did anyway, but that was because of Blaine and Blaine being The Actual Worst. This could have ended peacefully but for the terrible adults in everyone’s lives. (Central thesis statement of everyone’s backstories in this.)
Of course he stole the fucking skateboard too. While laughing.
Jesus christ, I don’t even have the satisfaction of pretending he’s running like his ass is on fire because he knows if Sal’s not suitably distracted, she’d murder him. Of course, she was distracted, because she’s a much better person than Leland.
Fuck that kid.
I suppose it’s too much to ask that in his first day at college, he got arrested for selling a mountain of dangerous and illegal drugs to an undercover cop?
Well, that’s what I’m going with because I DESERVE SOMETHING TODAY.
Also I’m glad this fight (seems) to be ending here.
Oh yes. He was definitely arrested due to his own terrible decision-making for a nonviolent but serious offense. And some part of that decision-making was both terrible and wacky enough he is now an internet meme and object of ridicule. Like, ‘Florida Man’ levels of bad and meme.
If I were being remotely realistic, I’d point out the only way he’s getting arrested and having it stick is if he irrefutably hurts a powerful white person’s daughter, but I don’t want that so nope, he’s busted as a drug lord. Turns out his parents’ good connections came from somewhere fishy.
That or like, literal serial killer with irrefutable evidence. Again, NOPE! Mountain of drugs. And he did something like ‘mistake the cop for an attendee of his costume party’ or ‘offered it to pay off someone who helped him move in.’ You know, the stuff that becomes a viral headline.
Yeah, folks on patreon were talking about how he’d probably joined a frat and other stuff and I was like ‘Yeah, realistically he’d last at least that long but NOPE PETTY REFUSAL AT EVERY TURN, he got busted his literal first week at college.’
I don’t want him reappearing. He attacked Marcie the first time for no known reason and if he had one I don’t want to know. Jail and the Bin of Permanently Gone Villains for him! He can spend his time chatting with Toedad and Gashface.
Hilarious, but not toxically masculine enough for Toedad. He plays mumblety-peg or something. (Consider the image of him having to remove a knife from the ground with his teeth. Isn’t it nice?)
Nah, he’s a good student, promising future. Parents probably donate enough money that he’s untouchable even if got busted. Can afford good lawyers too! Blame it on the real source. Obviously the mute mexican girl that’s not even in the same town! And not to get too political but realistically he grows up to be a republican senator or govenor. In 2048 he runs for president against Dorothy….and wins! Real bright future for that Leland fella.
Nope, can’t hear you, he got arrested a little over a month and a half ago for selling a literal mountain of illegal and dangerous drugs to an undercover cop and he’s going to jail forever. That’s my story and you can pry it from my cold, dead hands. 😛
Nah, by 2045 we’ll be in spring term, probably. Maybe even the end of freshman year.
Also I’m scared if this kid doesn’t actually get arrested at some point he keeps escalating. I mean, rock to the neck and no remorse. This kid is a cut above standard bully and into ‘that dude you’re not surprised to find out about the arrests of decades later.’
I don’t know where I read this but apparently Leland is based on a guy in Shortpacked who drank something radioactive enough to make his piss glow. So you can imagine he has cancer and that could be as potentially close to canon as anything so far.
Oh, hey, actually yeah. He is in the Piss Green comic. (Also the Sphincter Clench one.) Doesn’t mention radioactivity but he is definitely Dude Who Pees Neon.
Great! Now I can also imagine him as Hot Wheels Guy and getting in trouble for whatever Hot Wheels Guy does now that he has to go to general goods stores rather than dedicated toy ones that accept him as a creepy sort of regular. You can’t stop me!
Yup. We have seen him practice and develop his own brand of cruelty as a child. We have seen him single out a target without protection from society and seen him explore the borders of his protection from the adults around him.
Okay, Leland and his friends in panel 1 make me giggle uncontrollably. I am a bad person.
Absolutely love the detail that what stops Sal with Ethan is that she realizes she’s holding an object to his throat. And thus it makes sense that it’s when grabbing Amber round the throat that all this occurs to Sal.
Also, final panel: Ah, there’s that Amazi-ass. Did I mention that I’m a bad person?
There is a difference in the severity though. And this most likely was the principal or something like that, marcies injury would have been a case for the police. So we can’t be sure.
Had the principal done his job, that first injury would have been cause for the police too (and I guarantee if Sal had knocked Leland into the same pit, she’d have had the cops called on her) because he knocked her into a pit full of concrete and rebar and Marcie was bleeding from her head.
I’m damned wary of calling police for almost anything in school, especially elementary school.
Partly of course because racism, but even without that, bullying is something schools need to be able to handle. And police really aren’t equipped to handle.
There are levels where ‘okay, SOMETHING major is merited’ – like if the big attack occurred on school grounds, or any kind of potential shooting scenario – but mostly I’m pretty sure things only get to the ‘let’s involve the criminal system’ point when an obvious problem’s been overlooked for quite a while. And anything THAT dangerous tends to be rare in elementary school.
That said, he definitely deserved a suspension for what he did the first time – Student or no, Marcie was a random kid who apparently did nothing to provoke him and could have been REALLY seriously injured. There were ways to handle ‘non-students shouldn’t be on school grounds’ while still disciplining someone who could be a threat to other students (betting Sal and Marcie weren’t the only targets,) and with less racist fearmongering to boot. Also, asshat principal, your students aren’t the only ones deserving of respect! Nor are only your well-off white ones!
@gangler: legally? At the first threat of physical violence.
That’s not really a useful approach for kids. Again, ignoring it, as the school did, isn’t a good approach. Dumping it into the criminal justice system isn’t either. That’s why schools have their own disciplinary processes.
@Regalli: Yeah, obviously with anything really major. Or even more minor things not committed by students or kids.
As I understand it, it’s been getting more common to involve police, partly because it’s been more common to have police stationed in schools for protection. With them right there, why not get them involved when kids are acting up? Especially when they’re black kids, of course.
There comes a point when police involvement is necessary. Schools only have so much authority.
Yes, teachers shouldn’t be calling the police every time a black kid looks at them funny, but I don’t think it’s outlandish to say Leland warranted some a response from the police.
Of course it had nothing to do with the school lacking authority, but with the school choosing not to use it. Leland was a problem well within the school’s ability to deal with, had they chosen to do so.
Remember, we’re dealing with elementary school kids here, since we’re talking about the initial incident at the school, not the one with the rock that cost Marcie her voice.
They didn’t exercise any authority, but I’m not confident that the authority they could’ve exercised on their own would’ve been sufficient, if they had tried.
He was getting pretty physical with Marcie, even before the major incident, and ideally the kid shouldn’t have to be disabled for life before you start treating it seriously.
Until I see proof to the contrary I’m going to assume Leland got hit by a bus and died not long after he hit Marcie with a rock and stole her skateboard.
No, I suspect that he’s in an ivy league college on the fast track to a law degree and/or possibly a Congressional seat. Everyone will be told that he is a fine, upstanding young man and it will be abundantly clear that his ‘eccentricities’ are to be ignored or indulged unless you want to ruin your own future prospects.
One day, Leland will be a SCOTUS Justice, with a Republican president patting himself on the back for choosing the “perfect man for the job”, a “fine, upstanding judge” with an “impeccable character”.
Mmmm…. partial credit. She still gets significant points knocked off for escalating to the fight in the first place. But yeah, at least she made the recovery.
I wonder how many of these recollections are accurate, but I suppose there’s no way to know for sure. Sal may have had an internal moment of hesitation, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she put down the knife. Her memory may have amended itself to suit her adult (…ish) perceptions. Memories are super unreliable like that.
Honestly Sal and Amber should do couples’ therapy or something.
Right now, I think Amber is angrier and less likely to sit down and talk than Sal. I think she really wanted to be the one who initiated the conversation.
Therapist: “For the first session, we will focus on feelings” *turns to write on whiteboard, a loud crash and a moan is heard*
Therapist: “You can’t both escape through the window at the same time.”
I don’t think we’ve EVER seen a misleading or inaccurate flashback panel yet, so I dunno why you’d suddenly distrust these or find it suspect that Sal would actually give up when we KNOW she didn’t actually hurt Ethan and didn’t WANT to hurt anyone in the first place.
Not to mention that if she HADN’T put the knife down on her own, she almost certainly would’ve been injured by the cops.
Yeah, we never saw what happened between her taking Ethan hostage and her being stabbed. Considering Ethan said she never actually used it and what we know of Sal, I’ve got no problems believing she put the knife down when she saw Amber and Ethan freaking out. As I’ve said, she’s a much better person than Leland and doesn’t actually relishing people, for the most part.
As for not being sure about their perceptions about their memories, I’ve only seen it this much (not just from Hazel) with Ruth when Clint was here and Sal. Last time it was wondering whether she was REALLY a victim of racism (yes) and now with Sal putting the knife down.
I’m on board with you. I’d always thought it went as far as we were shown: Sal doesn’t try to cut Ethan with the knife, she stops (or is stopped) without much more struggle, and then we see what Blaine glass Amber into doing.
We were never shown if Ethan soiled himself. If so, that’s very understandable.
There’s the slight (possible) discrepancy between Sal and Amber’s memories (basically just the lit-vs-unlit cigarette thing, but also Amber apparently NOT remembering that the police were almost immediate and there was a little moment where Sal clearly wasn’t sure of herself between ‘bulletproof glass’ and ‘there, a hostage’, plus the different eyeshines in the This is a holdup panel,) but yeah, the only way Willis misleads with flashback panels tends to be selectiveness in what’s shown. The fact that it’s red panel versus sketch or something like Becky’s ghosts in her house says to me it is almost certainly real, but the timing of it is still perfect.
The more I think about it the more I like ‘bungles into giving authorities irrefutable proof of felony.’ (Hence the mountain of drugs to an undercover cop.) The rock seriously scares me and I want him humiliated and losing all his social camouflage.
I think I’m finally getting back into video making, having finished a (admittedly plain) Catradora video today. So I’ll probably get around to that DoA video I was going to make…soon. There are just…so many images to gather.
Anyway, I wonder if Amber should go to the hospital. Really, she probably should, but she won’t.
Yeaaaah, between the choking and the ‘how aware are you actually that you were just choked?’ I am concerned. (And I still want Sal’s ribs checked out as well.)
When I went through sexual assault response training, the dangers of strangulation were really empasized; it’s possible to have no symptoms at first and then have really serious ones develop after the fact, sometimes weeks later. And okay, I think it’s reasonable to think that that won’t happen to Amber in this comic…but it’s one of those things I learned that always leaves me freaked out when I think about it.
That was a good time to let go. Amber is incapacitated so Sal can easily claim self defense if it came to that and, if Amber is still unreasonable, can mean Amber can be forced to get therapy or face jail time
Also note that I do think they are both at fault, just that Amber is the more dangerous one, having suicidal ideations and also actually having training
I feel I should remark (though it has probably been observed by others before) that the convenience store incident was not the source of Amber’s psychological problems. It was merely the spark that ignited an already-prepared bonfire. She focusses on it, but that doesn’t mean it is the core problem, only the one that her illness will let her see.
The true source of her issues is, indubitably, her awful father.
Not necessarily. It’s also possible that her awful childhood left her unable to deal with this incident appropriately, thus making her ptsd so bad. There’s a link between those two. The better you are taken care of, the better your chances are to overcome such an experience.
That’s just it. Amber projects those pent-up feelings onto Sal, and refuses to accept that she’s just another person who made stupid decisions (and has since atoned for them).
In Amber’s internal narrative, the robbery and its aftermath are the catalyst that released her inner darkness. Sal is the Big Bad evil no-good murderous jaywalking supervillan in Amber’s life. She has to be, because if she’s just some other kid then Amber’s world will start falling apart.
Sal beats Amber in a fight >> Amber is more dangerous because she’s had training?
Look, it’s well established both of them are serious bad-asses. They’re routinely happy to go an beat up multiple bad guys with little concern. Who’s actually talked about their training doesn’t really matter.
And suicidal ideation isn’t really Amber’s thing, despite the “end it” yesterday. She’s driven to do things that risk her life, but that’s not the same thing.
I don’t think you can go to jail at what, 12? Maybe juvie, but perhaps not for a first time offender or something? I really don’t know much about the law
1 witness saying those three attacked Marcie, versus 3 saying they didn’t, and Sal has a track record of attacking Leyland at school. Leyland’s practiced at lying to authorities about this stuff. Marcie can’t be brought into the spotlight because immigration stuff. Linda’s in a position to shut down Sal’s accusations entirely if Marcie and her parents don’t press the issue with police, and probably would. Unless other witnesses come forward there’s no way Leyland gets prosecuted.
Marcie’s family doesn’t seem to be documented, and ICE absolutely will nab people for deportation if they report crimes, testify, show up in court, etc.
Who would make the complaint? What witnesses were there who would back up Sal’s accusation on the record to the DA? Who would protect them from intimidation or bribery by Leyland’s parents high-power legal team? Willis has created a perfect injustice that, barring a miracle or a superhero, would never be punished or even recognised.
When Marcie shows up in ER with a crushed throat there will be questions asked. I doubt Sal would have covered for Leland, so it’s very at least something was filed.
We just didn’t focus on it, since it’s not the core of Sal’s trauma here.
I forget the strip number, but in a flashback recently Sal & her parents are in (what I think is) the principals office and he’s saying Leland is a good student from a good family, Marcie doesn’t even go to that school, so it’s actually her fault for even being there and there’s no reason to “shine a light” on his actions or prosecute.
That was the pushing someone on the playground incident (which was still into a pit that caused a bleeding head injury,) which led to Sal attacking Leland in retaliation and that in turn almost certainly led to Leland targeting Marcie again down the line because Leland is TERRIBLE and picks fights with the less-aggressive person.
But yeah, I suspect that same pattern held as long as he went after people with less social clout or whose parents wouldn’t fight on their behalf. (Linda could’ve made a fuss because this boy attacked another little girl and that girl is friends with HER DAUGHTER and how does she know HER DAUGHTER will be safe at this school while he walks free, but that would require respecting Marcie as a person and Sal’s ability to make her own friends.)
If the Dean of this college got wind of this, I’m curious how an adult would have to deal with this.
Amber stopped before like, breaking Sal’s ribs and puncturing a lung or something. Sal stopped before choking Amber out for brain damage. Maybe no one took video footage. Maybe by really bad luck one of their enemies got video footage and will threaten to blackmail them. Sal and Amber COULD say they were just sparring and it got a little rough if they both were cool about it. Maybe. The fact that there’s no really permanent damage might make that stick.
Otherwise it’s at a minimum disciplinary probation, maximum expulsion with police charges.
The Dean used to be married to Sal’s mother. She’ll be fine. If only because I assume the Dean doesn’t want to have to deal with an outraged Linda. “Look, promise not to do it again and we won’t tell your mother, okay? Easier for both of us.”
Linda doesn’t give a shit about Sal as a person but her daughter getting expelled would make LINDA look bad, so she would definitely want it hushed up.
But the Dean going soft on his ex’s kids could also look really bad if someone finds out. It’s not SUPER likely to be a problem here, since two eyewitnesses plus the combatants can say ‘this was really complicated and seeing each other is mutually traumatic due to Circumstances,’ and it’s probably Public Safety’s problem first anyway, but I do worry about it in the Walky’s Changed Grades Subplot.
Okay, somehow I first saw panel two as Ethan having a tranquilizer dart in his shoulder and was really confused before I realized it was Sal’s cigarette.
I mean, in impact, AG’s stalking was definitely an example of racism because she’s a law enforcement officer harassing a black woman who wasn’t doing anything to justify it at the time and impact matters along with intent. That’s something AG realized at the rally. But yeah, in her mind, she’s got very different reasons for not liking Sal.
I think it was racism that drove Sal into that store in the first place. Even once Sal is in the store I can blame racism for the fact that nobody looked deeper into the story. Any one of these things could have been the thing to prevent the stalking but most likely didn’t happen in part because of racism.
Someone getting Sal’s side of the story for Amber.
Court ordered therapy.
Someone actually questioning Amber enough to realize she was semi put up to it by Blane.
Amber getting community service for the stabbing.
Someone talking to Amber about what she did wrong.
We can also thank racism for things like Sal assuming she knows why Amazigirl hates her, and Sal not trusting the police, which limits her ability to diffuse the situation.
And on top of all that Amber could herself have a small bias herself which made it slightly harder to forgive Sal.
AG’s stalking may or may not be an example of racism, but the one thing she is absolutely not is a law enforcement officer harassing a black woman — on account of she is the exact opposite of a law enforcement officer.
She is positioning herself as law enforcement. Officer is a poor choice of words, but Amber doesn’t get to back out of the problem of law enforcement harassing black people just because she doesn’t have a badge.
I really like the juxtaposition of the panels of younger Sal’s realization and pulling away with present Sal’s realization and pulling away. I also really like the implications of these flashback panels together, Sal’s realization that Amber wasn’t her personal Leland, Amber was something like Ethan’s Sal during a time when Sal was playing the Leland, that moment of understanding and identification. They’re not the same circumstances, and they reacted in different ways, but I like that Sal is looking for those similarities. I just think that the panel choices and way it’s laid out are all top notch today.
Seriously, I wouldn’t be surprised if Sal and Amber both go catatonic at this point and that Ethan, Danny and Dorothy end up sitting with them in the lounge overnight until they’re both functional enough to start talking. After all, that is a hell of a lot of trauma they’re both reliving.
Sal seams to be having a “am I the bad guy?” Moment with realising she almost did an analogous action to Ethan as Leland did to Marcie. And it is amazing how such a thing can be conveyed with out a single word. Bravo.
Leland stabbed someone and is grinning about it. Is happy. Stabbed her in the neck. Did he go to jail this time? Did any teacher ever apologize to Sal?
Maybe, maybe not. Blood is blood. Especially since Marcie was with Sal, a colored girl, the cops might investigate the weapon to see if Sal was the actual guilty one.
Side note: Looks like Sal is into dinosaurs too.
Still would have thought some sort of authority figure or parental Guardian would have noticed this sociopathic Behavior. For all we know this guy could have grown up to be a homicidal maniac.
It was a recurring theory for a while that Leland is the first name (since Ryan went by his middle one.) Pretty sure it got shot down as the two were originally unrelated characters appearing in completely different parts of the Walkyverse with different interactions and tone (Ryan was just some asshole teenager who acted nice to Ruth and then dumped her after they slept together during her tragic origin flashback, while Leland was one of the really minor Awful Regulars of Shortpacked who also peed neon green.) Willis sometimes has fairly limited character design for bit parts.
I could almost buy it anyway (with Leland discarding his first name after actually facing a Consequence almost for the ATTEMPTED MURDER,) but then I consider that Ryan was pretty bad with his knife and lost horribly to anyone fighting back, whereas our glimpses of Leland show that he’s distressingly comfortable with a weapon and I really doubt he Sal and Marcie only interacted the two times we’ve been shown, years apart. My guess is still ‘two random douchebags, that haircut’s just popular with the Young White Creepstain demographic.’
We know they’re not the same /exact/ person because of the one drawing Willis did that featured both of them, but I don’t think we’ve had anything explicitly said either way on the potential that they’re related.
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Obligatory “Now kiss”.
It might qualify for Top 5 Fucked-UP DOA Relationships if that happened.
Oh come on, we’ve been saying that for the last five strips at least.
I say that most of the time Sal and Marcie are on screen together. Maybe not this time cuz they’re like 13, but most times.
You can kiss at 13….probably still not a good idea though cause Marcie could actually be dying there.
Reynardine says something highly inappropriate.
(https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=111, for those who need the reference.)
More like the past 5 years.
People like you are what corners where made for, now go stand in one and think about what you did.
I guess it’s a good thing no one saw any of that. This could’ve been a situation.
there are silhouettes in the windows, assume a few did
We know at least one of those people in the windows (Dorothy) did indeed see the fight take place; she’s not tagged today though, which may imply that she ran off to get an authority figure involved as others have speculated.
I was under the impression that Dorothy was watching from her dorm, not the hall lobby.
In any case, I believe that the silhouettes in the window in panel 2 are in fact plants.
We saw a food tray behind Dorothy in her panel, sitting on what looked like the type of tables we’ve previously seen in the dining hall.
I’m not quite convinced yet if we know those silhouettes are witnesses. They’ve been in the background this entire time. Unless we see reactions and faces I’m gonna assume it’s open season. Dorothy, Ethan, and Danny are the only absolutes. We can’t even confirm Marcie’s seen anything yet.
Maybe it’s not too late to cover this up?
Is there any reason to think Marcie’s seen anything? She’s only appeared in flashback since before the fight started.
Marcie is with Malaya. Can you imagine Malaya would’ve stood by silently?
Everyone else was.
“Everyone else” is Danny and Ethan, who are both pretty reserved people. Malaya isn’t. She likely would have shouted (or made some kind of disparaging comment deliberately loud enough for Sal to hear).
Marcie and Malaya have likely seen nothing, they were going off in the opposite direction of where this took place.
I looks like it’s darker outside, at least with all the light inside. It’s really hard to look outside in that case so I doubt they see anything.
Bright inside, dark outside. Probably didn’t see much.
A security camera saw Amber slice up Ryan. So one probably saw this fight.
This is a very serious comic, but if you need some levity you can just imagine that in the last panel Amber is actually saying “HOOOOO” like Lion-O the Thundercat.
or imagine her saying “hho boy” instead
Spontaneous Rolling Stones karaoke.
I hope this becomes a revolutionary moment for both of them.
I think you meant revelationary. Though I also wouldn’t mind if Sal and Amber became revolutionaries and started an uprising against an oppressive regime.
As long as they don’t end up like revolutionary girl Utena, I’m fine with wathever revolution they are about to have..
Sal could turn into a motorcycle.
Totally appropriate yet inappropriate
[video unavailable]
Looks like YouTube has dropped a few more layers deeper into the abyss
Good call, Sal.
Yeah. Definitely a… better call, Sal.
I’m glad Sal kind of had an epiphany about this and stopped.
…
Hopefully Amber doesn’t see it as pity.
She will.
Unfortunately she probably will.
I don’t think so. I think Amber’s had her own epiphany.
*plays the coda to “Shinma Lemures” from the Vampire Princess Miyu Original Video Anime soundtrack from a speaker somewhere*
Please please let this end up with both of them getting to a better space about this. They need therapy and hugs from friends. (I’m sentimental garbage on Thanksgiving but I really just wanna see ALL these kids get hugs, tbh,)
Heck, if Sal just hugged her, dropped the iron was of cool and just said “I’m sorry” over and over again.
That might cause amber to reciprocate and actually burst into tears instead of unbridled rage.
YAY SAL
YAY SAL
YAY SAL!
If we can be sur that Amber is not just feignting (not fainting), but you know, distract- then attack.
She’s not. We’re done here.
Huh. . . I . . .I am glad that this is how it is ending. Sal has just realized something internally, Amber has her internal vindication and pride, no one is seriously hurt, and there are no security guards racing out to grab them.
If this is the end of it then I will be incredibly happy. But there is always a possibility of something going wrong. Willis showed Dorothy for a reason, and with her respect for Authority I can see her going to grab an RA or security in an attempt to help stop this before it goes any further. I hope that I may be overthinking things but we shall see.
Mh. This could easily be another traumatic experience for Amber. Not being able to breathe, slowly suffocating, not being sure if she survives this. I think that would count as being seriously hurt.
I could be wrong, but I think she’s going to take that earlier triumph and work with that instead. And even that at least as much as the internal “faced my demon and didn’t lost control” kind of victory as the more temporary “could beat her in a fight” kind.
As Cerberus said a couple days ago, they were both shadow-boxing. They both won.
Nothing ever ends.
The past is never dead. It’s not even past.
ok I don’t want to say “most”, but a lot of bullies realize that they have gone too far and might have seriously hurt another person. This is probably a combination of basic empathy and fear of getting caught.
The fact that Leland is LAUGHING as the runs away and steals Marcie’s skateboard means he has no empathy, no decency towards the person he nearly murdered. I shudder, honestly
I’d seriously want to understand the psychology behind the typical bully… I’ve been bullied in my school days and I honestly can’t make myself think that bullies might’ve any empathy or decency. If you have these, you don’t start bullying someone, period…
I was bullied as a kid and I saw some bullies show remorse and regret, so some bullies DO realize they were acting shitty. Usually those are the “caved in to peer pressured and bullied the strange kid along with the rest of the class” types of bullies. The instigators not so much
Generally, it’s not that bullies don’t have empathy, it’s just that they don’t think through the consequences of their actions. Many are hurting or feel powerless in their own lives. Bullying allows them to assert control over another person. It makes them feel powerful, which is what most bullies are lacking outside of this dynamic. It doesn’t help that they often get praise from peers for showing “strength.” They are so focused on making themselves feel powerful that they don’t really think about what they are doing to the other person.
Actual children bullies have plenty of chances to learn empathy- it’s something everyone learns at one pace or another. Usually when you don’t learn that particular lesson it’s because adults are shielding you from it (or actively harming you if you show signs of it), and many times that doesn’t change, but sometimes it does.
You know that “someone who has no empathy” is the definition of psychopath?
Most children don’t grasp the concept of empathy. Hence why everyone was bullied as a kid
There is a lot to unpack in that statement.
Even most toddlers will smile if someone smiles at them and get sad, when people around them are sad. Until they learn to become angry when someone cries from their parents or whoever is in loco parentis.
That children need to learn about consequences (i.e. that someone will hurt if you hit them) is a different thing.
Huh, ok, several sources say that’s not quite so, as mirroring others feelings in very young children has something to do with not distinguishing between self and other and empathy needs that distinction. So they lean it somewhere between 2 and 4 years old.
Bullying is a behavior where the bullies ignore empathy with the victim (by defining them as ‘not people’ in some way or other) and gain positive feelings be being in control of th situation or th positive feedback from their also bullying peers or adults who define the victims as ‘not people (like us)’, too.
It’s a situation where empathy is suppressed and not presen.
A psychopath is always unable to be empathetic.
Not quite. Very specific people tend to be more likely to be bullied – kids of colour, LGBT kids, disabled kids (especially if they’re autistic), fat kids, poor kids, etc. Kids who aren’t seen as ‘normal’, basically. Which feeds into why it’s so easy to define them as ‘not people’. For instance, while one of my so called best friends as a kid was always a liar and always very toxic, it wasn’t until I started having to sit out of gym because of my heart condition things really ramped up.
That said, psychopathy is no longer considered a real thing and what once may have been called psychopathy does have a lack of cognitive empathy (being able to feel other’s feelings as a sort of echo) but does not preclude the ability to like others and wanting them to be happy.
As medical concepts evolve, they change. What is the current term for what was previously defined as psychopathy? Did this lead to a higher number on people diagnosed with it? Has the actual definition changed?
Has anyone come up with a therapy that actually helps them to learn about empathy or at least learn something else that has the same result (i.e. being able to discard ideas of how to achieve an aim where persons with empathy would discard them because of empathy even if empathy is a foreign concept?)
That said, if you want to find a reason to not see someone as human, you will find a reason, even if it is the wrong hair-style, (not) painted nails, or the way they react to loud noise. Though rigid social concepts provide people with ammunition and more back-up on this ideas, in the end anything can be used that way.
It’s kind of been considered with a variety of things (including antisocial behavioral disorder or whatever it’s called currently – I don’t exactly read the DSM-5 for fun,) and kind of considered ‘okay we may have been pathologizing and demonizing something that isn’t a given marker for Trouble, actually.’ There are studies showing that, say, surgeons tend to score low on the empathy scales – more empathic people would have much more trouble functioning in that environment because of the high stress and stakes. Now whether that’s natural low empathy or their brains shutting it off as a protective measure is another question entirely, but *shrug*. Not a Psych person.
There’s also a degree of low empathy (or perceived) in play with autistic people, but we vary a lot – some of us are hyperempathic, taking other people’s emotions on as our own, and others can’t really place ourselves in another’s shoes and take empathy on like that but do have really high SYMPATHY for others, and recognizing all of it requires a level of emotional vocabulary and awareness that’s difficult because of our brains. Also since we don’t always instinctively mirror facial expressions and map them to mood people don’t always think we’re feeling things that we are, and then we can’t explain it. Especially with kids, who haven’t figured out the coping mechanisms they need to proceed.
Empathy is not fully developed in children or teenagers. Your teenage years are where it fully develops. That is why you will have heard terms like ‘all kids are sociopaths’. Saying they completely lack empathy is inaccurate though – there are two types of empathy: affective (feeling what others feel e.g. if your best friend is sad you might not full out sob with them, but your mood might lower, you might shed a tear or two yourself if you have fairly high affective empathy or if you have hyperempathy) and cognitive (being able to understand logically what someone is feeling, why, what caused it).
In someone with Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) where empathy is low or non-existant (notably, I have noticed a few people diagnosed with it saying their empathy for animals is much higher than for people while others lack empathy for either), the empathy that is low is affective. They struggle to or cannot feel what someone else is feeling. If someone walks into the room sad, their mood doesn’t react by itself. If someone comes into their room crying, their mood doesn’t inherently lower. Their emotions do not change simply based on other emotions being present in the same space as them or it has a very limited effect at best.
Their cognitive empathy level though can vary a lot because that can be learned. You can’t learn to feel something you don’t, but you can learn to logically put pieces of a puzzle together. Some will have low cognitive empathy – their inability to feel what others do can have a knock on effect of them not understanding why others feel the way they do. Others will have decent or high cognitive empathy though – they might not feel what you feel but they’ll be able to work it out and understand why your feelings are what they are.
So someone with ASPD may not feel what you feel and may struggle to understand why you are feeling what you are. It doesn’t mean they’ll actually be a cruel, mean or sadistic person though. Kids don’t have fully developed empathy and are all of them cruel monsters? No. Plenty of them have been taught the right lessons and try their best to be kind. This is true for all conditions with low empathy: it’s not inherently going to make them act cruel. Just as hyperempathy is not going to necessarily make you act kind.
Someone with low empathy in both ways might understand absolutely nothing about why you are upset about something and still express sympathy and compassion that helps you feel better while someone with hyperempathy and high cognitive empathy could be an asshole edgelord.
The way to help people with low empathy treat people right is literally just to teach them what you would teach children. These are possible consequences. This is how people might feel. Hurting people needlessly is wrong. They can get it. Plenty of them do and succeed in society.
As for whether ‘psychopathy’ has a medical term to cover it… that is complicated. It isn’t officially a diagnosis at all and never really was. Antisocial Personality Disorder is and people with it tend to refer to it as sociopathy or psychopathy, and I’ve seen at least a couple argue that they are the same thing which could be true as traits described as psychopathic (being methodical, emotionally controlled, calculated) could easily be counter balances to those that are described as sociopathic (being careless, easily angered, impulsive). There is not a perfect consensus on it and it really does not help that the guy who made the Psychopathy Checklist, Robert Hare can’t seem to agree with himself on which has which trait despite insisting they are different.
So ASPD is a thing. Is psychopathy a separate thing? I veer towards no at this current time. You might think differently and that’s fine.
I’ve always assumed it was about power tripping, but I can’t say I’ve ever seen research on it.
…. probably out there, though.
Yeah this kid attacked her once with no known provocation, and then years down the line goes after her with a ROCK to the NECK? Presumably because Sal went after him when he got off scot-free, and I have to imagine there were interactions before that because… yikes. Even if Sal and Marcie weren’t on the receiving end of Leland in that time, that cannot have been his only instances of assault.
I hope we don’t see more Leland in the present. I don’t think anything good can come from this guy showing up.
Yeah, that was probably the biggest in a long line of incidents of Leland bullying Marcie and Sal, and getting away with it scot-free.
Jesus Christ, I didn’t even notice they took her skateboard. The fuck.
Leland is truly evil if he can commit minor crimes after big crimes. It is like hitting someone in the head with a hammer, and then just casually steal chocolate from a store.
No, no, it’s like hitting someone in the head with a hammer, then notice they have a chocolate bar and take it.
And then stealing their skateboard to get away!
Taking bets right now that the next strip is Amber pulling a full Clay Puppington: “Fight back!”
Clay is the worst parental figure that isn’t a rapist or murderer. He could rival Linda in shitiness!
1) delighted to see other moral Orel fans
2) petition to turn clay puppington into pottery
Now now lets not forget the 102nd lost commandment.
I need to take a moment to say this strip’s visual storytelling is beautiful. So much conveyed, basically without words. It’s lovely and sad and perfect.
I KNOW <3333
I know I keep saying it, but Willis, the art is AMAZING lately. <3 It's always been great, but it's been on fire particularly lately. You've been kicking ass, Willis.
A side thought: looks like Amber lost another pair of glasses…
It’s no fun. Glasses are expensive…
The glasses only fell off Amber’s head when Sal shoved her to the ground. They should be salvageable.
The artist kind of forgot to add them on the ground, too.
And as the red panels fade away we are only left now with the dark sad blue melancholy of the night….and scene.
This confrontation was stressful if not intense, definitely lived up to all the build-up.
Damn they took Marcie’s skateboard too
Jackassses of the highest order.
Insult to injury?
Added!
Leyland, I hope you are a throw away character, cause I don’t wanna see you any more. As in like ever.
switched to skates bc they’re harder to steal
Nah, she switched to skates for roller derby but still has a skateboard, as seen here.
I am curious about panels 2 and 4, mainly because I don’t think we’ve seen that in any version of the events of the robbery we’ve seen so far.
Yup. Seems like Sal realized that taking a hostage is wrong immediately after she did it…
If you compare with the previous strip, possibly because she realized she was holding a sharp object to someone’s throat. Just like Leland did to Marcie.
Ohh, I didn’t catch that. That’s really good.
Honestly I’m not entirely certain they’re literal and not a metaphor (Sal reaching across time, seeing the parallel, and making a different choice,) but if she did realize then it’s not surprising and makes Amber stabbing her afterward feel even more incongruous to Sal. I’ll see tomorrow, that probably is more likely. Either way the imagery’s beautiful.
I thought it was a wibbly wobbly timey wimey therapeutic memory alternation stuff too
To me, Panel 3 suggests that she was also reacting to Amber’s total collapse into terrified hysteria. Sal has just now remembered this and is now wondering just how much of all of this is her own fault.
Not as much as her self-loathing would like, of course. However, it’s going to take a while for Sal to learn and process just how totally Blaine’s abuse has scrambled Amber’s brain.
Yeah, that’s totally new. I doubt it’s alteration or false memory or anything like that. We’ve never seen anything between taking Ethan as hostage and her being held by the cops outside before, IIRC.
We never saw how the hostage situation resolved. Now we have. Sal let him go. And probably surrendered.
Yeah, I think it being a factual reveal is most likely, but reading it initially as a ‘Sal taking the chance to do what she realizes now she should have five years ago’ moment gave me Emotions so a tiny part of me hopes it is metaphorical.
If this is a recall that Amber doesn’t really remember, though, that’s also great – It means Blaine was wrong about Amber doing nothing. Being the terrified kid freaking out was what stopped Sal WITHOUT it having to escalate to bloodshed* and Amber’s natural freeze and terror response did serve the purpose freeze responses are intended to.
* It did anyway, but that was because of Blaine and Blaine being The Actual Worst. This could have ended peacefully but for the terrible adults in everyone’s lives. (Central thesis statement of everyone’s backstories in this.)
Of course he stole the fucking skateboard too. While laughing.
Jesus christ, I don’t even have the satisfaction of pretending he’s running like his ass is on fire because he knows if Sal’s not suitably distracted, she’d murder him. Of course, she was distracted, because she’s a much better person than Leland.
Fuck that kid.
I suppose it’s too much to ask that in his first day at college, he got arrested for selling a mountain of dangerous and illegal drugs to an undercover cop?
Well, that’s what I’m going with because I DESERVE SOMETHING TODAY.
Also I’m glad this fight (seems) to be ending here.
Oh yes. He was definitely arrested due to his own terrible decision-making for a nonviolent but serious offense. And some part of that decision-making was both terrible and wacky enough he is now an internet meme and object of ridicule. Like, ‘Florida Man’ levels of bad and meme.
If I were being remotely realistic, I’d point out the only way he’s getting arrested and having it stick is if he irrefutably hurts a powerful white person’s daughter, but I don’t want that so nope, he’s busted as a drug lord. Turns out his parents’ good connections came from somewhere fishy.
That or like, literal serial killer with irrefutable evidence. Again, NOPE! Mountain of drugs. And he did something like ‘mistake the cop for an attendee of his costume party’ or ‘offered it to pay off someone who helped him move in.’ You know, the stuff that becomes a viral headline.
Yeah, folks on patreon were talking about how he’d probably joined a frat and other stuff and I was like ‘Yeah, realistically he’d last at least that long but NOPE PETTY REFUSAL AT EVERY TURN, he got busted his literal first week at college.’
I don’t want him reappearing. He attacked Marcie the first time for no known reason and if he had one I don’t want to know. Jail and the Bin of Permanently Gone Villains for him! He can spend his time chatting with Toedad and Gashface.
I’m just imagining the villains and abusive parents having like a knitting circle where they plan their crappy behaviour out.
Hilarious, but not toxically masculine enough for Toedad. He plays mumblety-peg or something. (Consider the image of him having to remove a knife from the ground with his teeth. Isn’t it nice?)
Patricia Wrede mentions a “bad stepmother circle” in the second of her dragonprincess-books.
I just want an evil knitting circle. I don’t care if Toedad enjoys it. 😛
Nah, he’s a good student, promising future. Parents probably donate enough money that he’s untouchable even if got busted. Can afford good lawyers too! Blame it on the real source. Obviously the mute mexican girl that’s not even in the same town! And not to get too political but realistically he grows up to be a republican senator or govenor. In 2048 he runs for president against Dorothy….and wins! Real bright future for that Leland fella.
Nope, can’t hear you, he got arrested a little over a month and a half ago for selling a literal mountain of illegal and dangerous drugs to an undercover cop and he’s going to jail forever. That’s my story and you can pry it from my cold, dead hands. 😛
Nah, by 2045 we’ll be in spring term, probably. Maybe even the end of freshman year.
Also I’m scared if this kid doesn’t actually get arrested at some point he keeps escalating. I mean, rock to the neck and no remorse. This kid is a cut above standard bully and into ‘that dude you’re not surprised to find out about the arrests of decades later.’
I don’t know where I read this but apparently Leland is based on a guy in Shortpacked who drank something radioactive enough to make his piss glow. So you can imagine he has cancer and that could be as potentially close to canon as anything so far.
Oh, hey, actually yeah. He is in the Piss Green comic. (Also the Sphincter Clench one.) Doesn’t mention radioactivity but he is definitely Dude Who Pees Neon.
Great! Now I can also imagine him as Hot Wheels Guy and getting in trouble for whatever Hot Wheels Guy does now that he has to go to general goods stores rather than dedicated toy ones that accept him as a creepy sort of regular. You can’t stop me!
I am aware we never saw Hot Wheels Guy, who cares only for Hot Wheels, but that dude’s near the top of the Recurring Unknown Horror list.
Yup. We have seen him practice and develop his own brand of cruelty as a child. We have seen him single out a target without protection from society and seen him explore the borders of his protection from the adults around him.
He will not stop.
Okay, Leland and his friends in panel 1 make me giggle uncontrollably. I am a bad person.
Absolutely love the detail that what stops Sal with Ethan is that she realizes she’s holding an object to his throat. And thus it makes sense that it’s when grabbing Amber round the throat that all this occurs to Sal.
Also, final panel: Ah, there’s that Amazi-ass. Did I mention that I’m a bad person?
Agreed. It’s a well crafted series of event
erotic auto-asphyxiation
Auto implies self applied. This is two, to tango.
oh, right.
Also it’s autoerotic, not auto-asphyxiation, which is impossible.
I hope panel 2 Sal didn’t drop a lit cigarette on Ethan, no matter how unintentionally
Looks like it fell in front of him.
Also, there’s a bit of a discrepancy. IIRC, Amber remembers the cigarette as lit, Sal remembers it as unlit.
I’d be more inclined to trust Sal’s interpretation as it isn’t bent on turning the event into her villainous origin story.
Also, Amber’s flashback was tinted red, so that might be why it looked lit.
So leland went to jail and died right?
Right?
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/liability/
He’s apparently a “Very Good Student”. Though maybe one day his behavior caught up with him.
Very good family… let’s not shine a light.
He doesn’t need one, because his pee glows in the dark now
This was before marcie lost her voice.
Yes, but it does illustrate his standing in the community, even in the face of his general behavior towards people like Marcie.
There is a difference in the severity though. And this most likely was the principal or something like that, marcies injury would have been a case for the police. So we can’t be sure.
Had the principal done his job, that first injury would have been cause for the police too (and I guarantee if Sal had knocked Leland into the same pit, she’d have had the cops called on her) because he knocked her into a pit full of concrete and rebar and Marcie was bleeding from her head.
I’m damned wary of calling police for almost anything in school, especially elementary school.
Partly of course because racism, but even without that, bullying is something schools need to be able to handle. And police really aren’t equipped to handle.
There are levels where ‘okay, SOMETHING major is merited’ – like if the big attack occurred on school grounds, or any kind of potential shooting scenario – but mostly I’m pretty sure things only get to the ‘let’s involve the criminal system’ point when an obvious problem’s been overlooked for quite a while. And anything THAT dangerous tends to be rare in elementary school.
That said, he definitely deserved a suspension for what he did the first time – Student or no, Marcie was a random kid who apparently did nothing to provoke him and could have been REALLY seriously injured. There were ways to handle ‘non-students shouldn’t be on school grounds’ while still disciplining someone who could be a threat to other students (betting Sal and Marcie weren’t the only targets,) and with less racist fearmongering to boot. Also, asshat principal, your students aren’t the only ones deserving of respect! Nor are only your well-off white ones!
When does it stop being “bullying” and start being “Assault”?
@gangler: legally? At the first threat of physical violence.
That’s not really a useful approach for kids. Again, ignoring it, as the school did, isn’t a good approach. Dumping it into the criminal justice system isn’t either. That’s why schools have their own disciplinary processes.
@Regalli: Yeah, obviously with anything really major. Or even more minor things not committed by students or kids.
As I understand it, it’s been getting more common to involve police, partly because it’s been more common to have police stationed in schools for protection. With them right there, why not get them involved when kids are acting up? Especially when they’re black kids, of course.
Treating schools as a Law Free Zone also seems like a recipe for disaster.
I feel like you’ve looked at a valid problem schools have with law enforcement, and come up with a solution that’s just the reverse extreme.
There comes a point when setting the kid straight requires something a little more severe than a suspension.
Law free zone? What!? This just… I don’t even. What are you even talking about any more?
@Inahc
There comes a point when police involvement is necessary. Schools only have so much authority.
Yes, teachers shouldn’t be calling the police every time a black kid looks at them funny, but I don’t think it’s outlandish to say Leland warranted some a response from the police.
Ahh. Thanks for clarifying.
Of course it had nothing to do with the school lacking authority, but with the school choosing not to use it. Leland was a problem well within the school’s ability to deal with, had they chosen to do so.
Remember, we’re dealing with elementary school kids here, since we’re talking about the initial incident at the school, not the one with the rock that cost Marcie her voice.
They didn’t exercise any authority, but I’m not confident that the authority they could’ve exercised on their own would’ve been sufficient, if they had tried.
He was getting pretty physical with Marcie, even before the major incident, and ideally the kid shouldn’t have to be disabled for life before you start treating it seriously.
Until I see proof to the contrary I’m going to assume Leland got hit by a bus and died not long after he hit Marcie with a rock and stole her skateboard.
No, I suspect that he’s in an ivy league college on the fast track to a law degree and/or possibly a Congressional seat. Everyone will be told that he is a fine, upstanding young man and it will be abundantly clear that his ‘eccentricities’ are to be ignored or indulged unless you want to ruin your own future prospects.
Money talks.
He went to YALE!
One day, Leland will be a SCOTUS Justice, with a Republican president patting himself on the back for choosing the “perfect man for the job”, a “fine, upstanding judge” with an “impeccable character”.
And, I mean, in this incident there were good people on both sides. BOTH SIDES. Except that one girl, she’s probably a member of MS-13.
Just an Excitable Boy (RIP Warren Zevon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhBJlW4Kd_A)
No, but he no longer enjoys steak, isn’t that punishment enough?
He plans to give talks in schools across the nation on ” the dangers of rocks”.
NOW HUG IT OUT GIRLS
And you better freaking mean it to, we will not accept any run of the mill hug unless we see some fucking tears damn it!
I wonder if we could get a red panel tag or a flashback tag.
“LOOK, MARCIE! i have both of my hostages, I had a fight and I STILL managed to cool down. Is THIS enough proof of de-escalation for you?”
That said – I’m so proud of her right now. She finally managed to cool things down. Just hope it lasts.
I know! I feel like a proud, puffy little mama bird!
Assuming it lasts, yeah.
PFFT! Oh god, I’m imagining the face Marcie would make already.
Somewhere between pride, disappointment, and sheer confusion on how to respond, right?
Mmmm…. partial credit. She still gets significant points knocked off for escalating to the fight in the first place. But yeah, at least she made the recovery.
I wonder how many of these recollections are accurate, but I suppose there’s no way to know for sure. Sal may have had an internal moment of hesitation, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she put down the knife. Her memory may have amended itself to suit her adult (…ish) perceptions. Memories are super unreliable like that.
Honestly Sal and Amber should do couples’ therapy or something.
I’m trying to imagine how that would go over and all I’m getting is Sal hissing like an angry cat.
Right now, I think Amber is angrier and less likely to sit down and talk than Sal. I think she really wanted to be the one who initiated the conversation.
Therapist: “For the first session, we will focus on feelings” *turns to write on whiteboard, a loud crash and a moan is heard*
Therapist: “You can’t both escape through the window at the same time.”
Later, Amber and Sal escapes by overcoming their trust obstacles, communicating and cooperating. The therapy is considered a success.
Eh, sort of. I’m still pretty sure the Walkerton family crest is a knight adamantly refusing to discuss his feelings.
Linda is happy to discuss feelings.
Specifically how disappointed Sal makes her feel.
So, “swords, not words”, but without the awesomeness that is Boo?
Amber: “Ha! You didn’t even think of bringing a grappling hook, did you?”
Sal: “Do I look like I need a grappling hook?”
She’s basically Spiderman.
-Man. >:(
I don’t think we’ve EVER seen a misleading or inaccurate flashback panel yet, so I dunno why you’d suddenly distrust these or find it suspect that Sal would actually give up when we KNOW she didn’t actually hurt Ethan and didn’t WANT to hurt anyone in the first place.
Not to mention that if she HADN’T put the knife down on her own, she almost certainly would’ve been injured by the cops.
THANK YOU
Oh, huh, someone addressed that. Thank you!
Yeah, we never saw what happened between her taking Ethan hostage and her being stabbed. Considering Ethan said she never actually used it and what we know of Sal, I’ve got no problems believing she put the knife down when she saw Amber and Ethan freaking out. As I’ve said, she’s a much better person than Leland and doesn’t actually relishing people, for the most part.
As for not being sure about their perceptions about their memories, I’ve only seen it this much (not just from Hazel) with Ruth when Clint was here and Sal. Last time it was wondering whether she was REALLY a victim of racism (yes) and now with Sal putting the knife down.
I’m on board with you. I’d always thought it went as far as we were shown: Sal doesn’t try to cut Ethan with the knife, she stops (or is stopped) without much more struggle, and then we see what Blaine glass Amber into doing.
We were never shown if Ethan soiled himself. If so, that’s very understandable.
Dammit, that should say ‘relish hurting people, for the most part’.
There’s the slight (possible) discrepancy between Sal and Amber’s memories (basically just the lit-vs-unlit cigarette thing, but also Amber apparently NOT remembering that the police were almost immediate and there was a little moment where Sal clearly wasn’t sure of herself between ‘bulletproof glass’ and ‘there, a hostage’, plus the different eyeshines in the This is a holdup panel,) but yeah, the only way Willis misleads with flashback panels tends to be selectiveness in what’s shown. The fact that it’s red panel versus sketch or something like Becky’s ghosts in her house says to me it is almost certainly real, but the timing of it is still perfect.
Yay Sal!
The more I think about it the more I like ‘bungles into giving authorities irrefutable proof of felony.’ (Hence the mountain of drugs to an undercover cop.) The rock seriously scares me and I want him humiliated and losing all his social camouflage.
I think I’m finally getting back into video making, having finished a (admittedly plain) Catradora video today. So I’ll probably get around to that DoA video I was going to make…soon. There are just…so many images to gather.
Anyway, I wonder if Amber should go to the hospital. Really, she probably should, but she won’t.
Oooh, Catradora!
Yeaaaah, between the choking and the ‘how aware are you actually that you were just choked?’ I am concerned. (And I still want Sal’s ribs checked out as well.)
The video’s here if you want to watch it.
When I went through sexual assault response training, the dangers of strangulation were really empasized; it’s possible to have no symptoms at first and then have really serious ones develop after the fact, sometimes weeks later. And okay, I think it’s reasonable to think that that won’t happen to Amber in this comic…but it’s one of those things I learned that always leaves me freaked out when I think about it.
And quite lovely! (You say basic, I say ‘still more video editing than I can do.) 😉
Yeah, many things that these two do in particular are ‘oh god I actually have relevant knowledge on this to know how bad this can get.’
That was a good time to let go. Amber is incapacitated so Sal can easily claim self defense if it came to that and, if Amber is still unreasonable, can mean Amber can be forced to get therapy or face jail time
Also note that I do think they are both at fault, just that Amber is the more dangerous one, having suicidal ideations and also actually having training
And, you know, psychosis. Amber doesn’t operate in objective reality when it comes to Sal and the convenience store.
I feel I should remark (though it has probably been observed by others before) that the convenience store incident was not the source of Amber’s psychological problems. It was merely the spark that ignited an already-prepared bonfire. She focusses on it, but that doesn’t mean it is the core problem, only the one that her illness will let her see.
The true source of her issues is, indubitably, her awful father.
Not necessarily. It’s also possible that her awful childhood left her unable to deal with this incident appropriately, thus making her ptsd so bad. There’s a link between those two. The better you are taken care of, the better your chances are to overcome such an experience.
That’s just it. Amber projects those pent-up feelings onto Sal, and refuses to accept that she’s just another person who made stupid decisions (and has since atoned for them).
In Amber’s internal narrative, the robbery and its aftermath are the catalyst that released her inner darkness. Sal is the Big Bad evil no-good murderous jaywalking supervillan in Amber’s life. She has to be, because if she’s just some other kid then Amber’s world will start falling apart.
Sal beats Amber in a fight >> Amber is more dangerous because she’s had training?
Look, it’s well established both of them are serious bad-asses. They’re routinely happy to go an beat up multiple bad guys with little concern. Who’s actually talked about their training doesn’t really matter.
And suicidal ideation isn’t really Amber’s thing, despite the “end it” yesterday. She’s driven to do things that risk her life, but that’s not the same thing.
Amber may have more training, but I’m pretty sure Sal’s been in more fights.
Also, Sal didn’t stop fighting in favour of standing there talking to herself.
I’m glad this fight is over.
The fat lady has not yet sung. Willis likes to screw with us, remember that.
Blessed be the name of the Willis.
Why the fuck is that kid not in jail for attempted murder?? Its not like pushing someone on the playground, he went after her throat with a rock!!
I don’t think you can go to jail at what, 12? Maybe juvie, but perhaps not for a first time offender or something? I really don’t know much about the law
Sometimes it depends on the crime…
Jamie Bulger.
(Non Hyperbole Warning: It’s horrific… don’t google it if you don’t want to read about child on infant violence.)
1 witness saying those three attacked Marcie, versus 3 saying they didn’t, and Sal has a track record of attacking Leyland at school. Leyland’s practiced at lying to authorities about this stuff. Marcie can’t be brought into the spotlight because immigration stuff. Linda’s in a position to shut down Sal’s accusations entirely if Marcie and her parents don’t press the issue with police, and probably would. Unless other witnesses come forward there’s no way Leyland gets prosecuted.
After all, boys will be boys.
Marcie’s family doesn’t seem to be documented, and ICE absolutely will nab people for deportation if they report crimes, testify, show up in court, etc.
Who would make the complaint? What witnesses were there who would back up Sal’s accusation on the record to the DA? Who would protect them from intimidation or bribery by Leyland’s parents high-power legal team? Willis has created a perfect injustice that, barring a miracle or a superhero, would never be punished or even recognised.
When Marcie shows up in ER with a crushed throat there will be questions asked. I doubt Sal would have covered for Leland, so it’s very at least something was filed.
We just didn’t focus on it, since it’s not the core of Sal’s trauma here.
I forget the strip number, but in a flashback recently Sal & her parents are in (what I think is) the principals office and he’s saying Leland is a good student from a good family, Marcie doesn’t even go to that school, so it’s actually her fault for even being there and there’s no reason to “shine a light” on his actions or prosecute.
That was the pushing someone on the playground incident (which was still into a pit that caused a bleeding head injury,) which led to Sal attacking Leland in retaliation and that in turn almost certainly led to Leland targeting Marcie again down the line because Leland is TERRIBLE and picks fights with the less-aggressive person.
But yeah, I suspect that same pattern held as long as he went after people with less social clout or whose parents wouldn’t fight on their behalf. (Linda could’ve made a fuss because this boy attacked another little girl and that girl is friends with HER DAUGHTER and how does she know HER DAUGHTER will be safe at this school while he walks free, but that would require respecting Marcie as a person and Sal’s ability to make her own friends.)
If the Dean of this college got wind of this, I’m curious how an adult would have to deal with this.
Amber stopped before like, breaking Sal’s ribs and puncturing a lung or something. Sal stopped before choking Amber out for brain damage. Maybe no one took video footage. Maybe by really bad luck one of their enemies got video footage and will threaten to blackmail them. Sal and Amber COULD say they were just sparring and it got a little rough if they both were cool about it. Maybe. The fact that there’s no really permanent damage might make that stick.
Otherwise it’s at a minimum disciplinary probation, maximum expulsion with police charges.
The Dean used to be married to Sal’s mother. She’ll be fine. If only because I assume the Dean doesn’t want to have to deal with an outraged Linda. “Look, promise not to do it again and we won’t tell your mother, okay? Easier for both of us.”
Unless Linda doesn’t have Sal’s back and McHenry knows it.
Linda doesn’t give a shit about Sal as a person but her daughter getting expelled would make LINDA look bad, so she would definitely want it hushed up.
That about sums up Linda.
But I do hope Faz is far away.
But the Dean going soft on his ex’s kids could also look really bad if someone finds out. It’s not SUPER likely to be a problem here, since two eyewitnesses plus the combatants can say ‘this was really complicated and seeing each other is mutually traumatic due to Circumstances,’ and it’s probably Public Safety’s problem first anyway, but I do worry about it in the Walky’s Changed Grades Subplot.
Amber gets involuntarily committed to a mental hospital. Sal gets expelled for fighting.
Video footage? I am sure there are cameras watching the main entrances. Because lawyers.
So…. how did Marcie get her skateboard back?
More than one skateboard in the world?
Lies!
This is my skateboard!
There are many like it, but this one is mine…!
Now they talk and something tells me that it will hurt far more than any physical blow.
Sal let go of Ethan? That’s a revelation. And crucially, *Amber didn’t see it*. And it looks like Sal just *realised* Amber didn’t see it.
“You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend.”
Okay, somehow I first saw panel two as Ethan having a tranquilizer dart in his shoulder and was really confused before I realized it was Sal’s cigarette.
OH THANK GOD I CAN FINALLY EXHALE
“Oh shit. I’m her Leland.”
That’s not a good feeling.
It’s always hard to realise that, as much as you want to see yourself as the heroic protagonist, to some other people you’re their monster.
Especially when you realize you deserve to be seen that way. Rather than, you know, being seen that way because of stupid bigotry.
I mean, in impact, AG’s stalking was definitely an example of racism because she’s a law enforcement officer harassing a black woman who wasn’t doing anything to justify it at the time and impact matters along with intent. That’s something AG realized at the rally. But yeah, in her mind, she’s got very different reasons for not liking Sal.
“In her mind” sounds wrong. Let’s just pretend that wording isn’t there, yeah?
I think it was racism that drove Sal into that store in the first place. Even once Sal is in the store I can blame racism for the fact that nobody looked deeper into the story. Any one of these things could have been the thing to prevent the stalking but most likely didn’t happen in part because of racism.
Someone getting Sal’s side of the story for Amber.
Court ordered therapy.
Someone actually questioning Amber enough to realize she was semi put up to it by Blane.
Amber getting community service for the stabbing.
Someone talking to Amber about what she did wrong.
We can also thank racism for things like Sal assuming she knows why Amazigirl hates her, and Sal not trusting the police, which limits her ability to diffuse the situation.
And on top of all that Amber could herself have a small bias herself which made it slightly harder to forgive Sal.
AG’s stalking may or may not be an example of racism, but the one thing she is absolutely not is a law enforcement officer harassing a black woman — on account of she is the exact opposite of a law enforcement officer.
She is positioning herself as law enforcement. Officer is a poor choice of words, but Amber doesn’t get to back out of the problem of law enforcement harassing black people just because she doesn’t have a badge.
I really like the juxtaposition of the panels of younger Sal’s realization and pulling away with present Sal’s realization and pulling away. I also really like the implications of these flashback panels together, Sal’s realization that Amber wasn’t her personal Leland, Amber was something like Ethan’s Sal during a time when Sal was playing the Leland, that moment of understanding and identification. They’re not the same circumstances, and they reacted in different ways, but I like that Sal is looking for those similarities. I just think that the panel choices and way it’s laid out are all top notch today.
Basically, this is Sal’s “There but for the grace of God…” moment.
accurate AF
Seriously, I wouldn’t be surprised if Sal and Amber both go catatonic at this point and that Ethan, Danny and Dorothy end up sitting with them in the lounge overnight until they’re both functional enough to start talking. After all, that is a hell of a lot of trauma they’re both reliving.
Let’s all focus on the positive: It will be much less awkward for Amber to come clean to Walky after all this
Sal seams to be having a “am I the bad guy?” Moment with realising she almost did an analogous action to Ethan as Leland did to Marcie. And it is amazing how such a thing can be conveyed with out a single word. Bravo.
Leland stabbed someone and is grinning about it. Is happy. Stabbed her in the neck. Did he go to jail this time? Did any teacher ever apologize to Sal?
I’m pretty sure it was covered up. I doubt Sal would be so bitter if there was any kind of justice offered to Marcie.
“The cops ain’t gonna do shit”
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-2/01-pajama-jeans/law/
Yeah thinking about it this is even more serous than it appears. That sadistic attitude is way to dangerous for a kid to have and to go uncorrected.
Maybe, maybe not. Blood is blood. Especially since Marcie was with Sal, a colored girl, the cops might investigate the weapon to see if Sal was the actual guilty one.
Side note: Looks like Sal is into dinosaurs too.
Still would have thought some sort of authority figure or parental Guardian would have noticed this sociopathic Behavior. For all we know this guy could have grown up to be a homicidal maniac.
Leland looks an awful lot like Ryan. Has anyone else noticed/mentioned this? I wonder if they’re related.
It was a recurring theory for a while that Leland is the first name (since Ryan went by his middle one.) Pretty sure it got shot down as the two were originally unrelated characters appearing in completely different parts of the Walkyverse with different interactions and tone (Ryan was just some asshole teenager who acted nice to Ruth and then dumped her after they slept together during her tragic origin flashback, while Leland was one of the really minor Awful Regulars of Shortpacked who also peed neon green.) Willis sometimes has fairly limited character design for bit parts.
I could almost buy it anyway (with Leland discarding his first name after actually facing a Consequence almost for the ATTEMPTED MURDER,) but then I consider that Ryan was pretty bad with his knife and lost horribly to anyone fighting back, whereas our glimpses of Leland show that he’s distressingly comfortable with a weapon and I really doubt he Sal and Marcie only interacted the two times we’ve been shown, years apart. My guess is still ‘two random douchebags, that haircut’s just popular with the Young White Creepstain demographic.’
We know they’re not the same /exact/ person because of the one drawing Willis did that featured both of them, but I don’t think we’ve had anything explicitly said either way on the potential that they’re related.
they’re not the same person
Would explain how Leland has such a promising future if his dad/uncle/whoever’s apparently a REALLY influential pastor or whatever.