Joyce stood with her phone pointed at Jacob for like five minutes. He thought she was trying to take a picture, but she was actually tossing Pokemon balls at him.
According to Ben Franklin, the advantage of being a reasonable creature is that you can always find a reason for doing what you wanted to do in the first place.
unless they’re just confusing mgtow with incels in general, equating joyce with one? which makes sense in terms of the messed up rationalizations in order to justify doing unethical things to get sex. but imo it misses the key themes of incels, which is specifically male entitlement to women, and rape.
Um… Nope. Not even close. Sorry, I read We Hunted the Mammoth pretty regularly. If you erased every good part of Joyce’s personality, and then filled the void with more of the bits that are so objectionable, you still wouldn’t hit even a fraction of the vileness of the average self-identified MGTOW or incel.
I don’t think it’s “MGTOW: The Comic” at all. We haven’t seen anything like the sense of entitlement they parade around, or the supposedly wicked ways of the “friendzoning” woman they seem to believe exists in large numbers.
Okay, that’s not completely true. Blaine was entitled as hell, Faz is kind of a proto-incel (creepy, but without the apparent bitterness involved), and Ryan is, well, guilty of attempted rape (and possibly attempted murder).
Joyce, right now, is nothing like any of that. This is actually more like a callback to Joyce’s earliest days in Roomies!, back when it was Danny, rather than Jacob (who as far as I know didn’t even *exist* yet) who was the target of Joyce’s obsession. And that Joyce was far, far worse than this one. That Joyce could be argued to be much closer to the “Nice Guy” archetype, as she pursued Danny despite a clear and (repeatedly) explicitly-stated lack of interest from Danny. This time around, Joyce is just flirting with a man who doesn’t even seem to *notice.*
Dorothy has a very high horse to stand on for someone who broke the hearts of two boyfriends for her homework. If Jacob wants to date someone else, Joyce can’t steal him. It’s not a marriage or even a serious relationship. It’s a couple of weeks old at most.
No, but you also can be a good friend and not just passive aggressively walk away because you don’t want to deal with it anymore after confronting someone.
In fairness, breaking up with someone because you think/know your paths will diverge is by no means the same as tempting someone else from a relationship.
Yes, but then hooking up with them again, breaking up with them again, and then having to be physically stopped from having sex with them again is pretty comparable.
I’m just saying that Joyce isn’t trying to cheat with Jacob behind Radiah’s back. She wants him to leave his girlfriend to date her. This isn’t an engagement. If Jacob has a problem, he can shut it down.
Dorothy is taking a very “This is a happy home you’re breaking up” attitude. Which is ridiculous because dating is about finding the person you want to be with or having fun. It’s not an absolute time.
Kindly point to me the comic where Joyce informed Jacob that she wished to have a romantic/sexual relationship with him instead of the platonic relationship that he very clearly assumed they had.
If she was just being platonicly friendly and they happened to fall for each other? Fine.
If she let him know that she was thinking of him that way and things developed to support it? Fine.
But her knowing that Jacob views her as a platonic friend, but her actively flirting with him to pull him towards a romantic/sexual relationship? That’s violating and disrespecting his agency and treating him little more than a piece of meat to be won.
There seems a more than reasonable probability that this is a mischaracterization of Jacob’s feelings. They are flirting with each other, even if Jacob doesn’t quite realize it.
True, but that not realizing it is important. That’s what lets her slip through his guard and engage his romantic feelings without being shut down.
If she did just walk up and tell him she was romantically interested and that she wanted him to break up with Raidah and date her instead, he’d very likely just reject her and then either cut her off completely or at least set limits on their interaction, and be on the internal lookout for temptation.
Since she’s able to flirt and get him to react without any of that, she’s much more likely to get him to fall for her.
No, Jacob is being a FRIEND, he is being NICE, and playful, that is nOT THE SAME AS FLIRTING.
My gods if Joyce was a boy, and Jacob was a girl, this whole scenario would be so messed up, “Oh She was nice to him, that means she was oBVIOUSLY flirting with him and wants to secretly be in a relationship!”
No, Jacob being a nice guy, and a good friend does NOT mean it’s flirting.
i get it, Radiah is a terrible person..to Joyce and her friends, to JACOB she is girlfriend matterial, he is happy with her, and he’s not wanting to end this relationship. Joyce knows that, and she’s doing what Joyce always does when Joyce wants something and someone else doesn’t……
She stomps all over their boundries, but it’s okay b/c naive homeschooled christian girlllllll
No, leave Jacob’s relationship alone, be his friend, and if Radiah drops her veil and shows her true face, and Jacob dumps her, be there for him, be a GOOD FRIEND, Not a predatory viper waiting for a moment to strike >C
Nah. Jacob’s flirting or damn close to it. I don’t think he’s aware of it, but he’s definitely showing interest. Pretty much everyone is picking up on it too.
I honestly don’t see it as violating his agency any more than going up to him and stating your interest would be. Flirting is basically just “behaving in a certain way in order to indicate interest and see if the behaviour is reciprocated.” Flirting with someone doesn’t FORCE them to do anything.
Now, do I think it’s inappropriate to knowingly and intentionally flirt with someone who’s in a committed relationship? Yeah, sure. But it’s not because it dismisses anyone’s agency or treats them as a piece of meat to be won (that would be, say, fighting with a third party over someone you’re both interested in, as if ‘winning’ entitled you to the person of interest).
It’s rude to both parties in the relationship because it ignores the fact that they have chosen to be with each other, but that’s true if she walks up to him and states her case, too. The only difference with that and this is that if she were more direct in her approach, she’d lose plausible deniability, which would make it easier to call her out or tell her to stop.
I don’t see how you can fault Dorothy for her breakups. There wasn’t any deceit or cheating on her part- she just found that having a relationship was conflicting with her life goals at the time. It’s her choice to date or not date someone. And besides, if she stayed with either of them out of obligation, she might just resent them for keeping her from her dreams.
As for Joyce, the general expectation is that you shouldn’t go for someone in a monogamous relationship. Most people wouldn’t want feel comfortable knowing someone was flirting with their partner. If Jacob breaks up with Raidah, fine, but Joyce shouldn’t be making any moves until then.
I think the misogyny statement with Dorothy is an odd one since most of the cast is female and well-liked. Dorothy is also a weird person to say is a strong woman with autonomy as her chief qualities when that applies to a lot of characters.
I dislike Dorothy because she reminds me of MALE characters I dislike. Specifically, Holden on the Expanse. Holden is ostensibly the protagonist of the Expanse but his holier than thou attitude grates and overshadows the other characters repeatedly. The narrative also seems to bend over to say they’re right.
I admit, I wouldn’t want Dorothy to become President in this universe. I’d like Becky to with First Lady and Secretary of Education Dinah. I’d also like her VP to be Leslie.
I got about a third of the way through a detailed rant about the legal reasons preventing such a political outcome before remembering that we are talking about a comic strip.
I’m not upset with Dorothy for ending her relationships based on her needs and her life goals. I’m upset with Dorothy for framing it like she’s doing it for their own good every time. Like she knows what’s best for Danny and Walky and is only making this decision not because she wants to or has to for her sake, but for theirs somehow. It’s… well at best, it’s more than a little condescending. Her grades were slipping and she made a choice, one that I support considering how important those aspirations are to her. But her maturity has also blinded her to her own immaturity as well. She fell for Walky hard when it was supposed to be a just for fun thing. It happens. But rather than end it or commit she kinda lost sight of things for a while, telling him she loves him but also reminding him of how temporary and casual they are. None of these actions are wrong or even hard to understand but they were very harmful to the person she cares about and she still ended the relationship on the basis of it being what’s best for him rather than being honest that it’s more because it’s what she feels is best for herself. Gotta commend Willis for the nuance here.
I do think this is sometimes a problem she has, though I will commend her on seemingly recognizing it when she realized she was taking Walky for granted and that her yo-yoing him was a bullshit move on her part.
Yeah, pretty much this. That she did realize it is a good thing. That her reaction was to double down and that she’s still locked in the same pattern (witness her “just one more comfort sex” bit) is not.
fair, but i do think it’s a pretty reasonable assumption that someone doesn’t wanna get jerked around. like, it’s possible to recognize that you’re mistreating someone and they’re blinded to it by their infatuation with you. the mature thing to do is to admit to it and work to stop it even if not asked.
i do agree that it is better to frame a break-up in terms of one’s own needs; even if it’s about one’s own perceived wrongs it can be framed as “i have a problem and i don’t feel ok treating you this way” instead of “this isn’t fair to you and you’d be better off without me”. i think it is probably fair to assume that
I admit, I may be letting my love of Joyce and thinking Jacob is a big boy who can shut down a woman’s advances if she makes a move (or not if he’s interested and can break up with Raidah instead) have him side with Dorothy here.
Dorothy is also acting like she’s Joyce’s parent and scolding her. It’s not a good attitude as no one likes righteous posturing–look at Joyce early on.
I keep hearing that reasoning, and I don’t get it. Why shouldn’t Joyce show an interest in Jacob, just because he is already in a relationship with Raidah? It is his choice to shut that down or engage in it.
Anything else is denying Jacob his agency. He is not a possession to be fought over, he is a person making that choice for themselves.
There’s only two parties here that have to make a choice. It may hurt the third party, sure, but the responsibility for that hurt is on the one making the choice (Jacob here), not the one expressing an interest.
The only reason I can think of that would be a problem is if one considers the relationship between Jacob and Raidah a possessive one, i.e. Joyce is taking something away from Raidah. But if we grant that Jacob has agency, it is not Joyce doing the taking away, isn’t it?
There does appear to be some massive gulf of understanding here. Let’s say I don’t agree with your “possession” logic, but I still find hitting on people in relationships a bad thing.
From the back and forth over this here since this story line started, I’m pretty sure I can’t explain it in any way that’ll convince those who don’t think that way, or vice versa. We don’t share common axioms on this and thus can’t reason to the same conclusions.
I am pretty sure, from the reactions of other characters and other context clues, that this is not meant by Willis to be a good or even morally neutral thing for Joyce to do. It’s meant to be her screwing up and learning a lesson from it. But we’ll see how that plays out.
I would be annoyed if I found out that somebody had been seriously hitting on my husband. If he took them up on it I would be a devastated furious mess, and it’s probable that the only thing keeping me from doing a very realistic inpersonation of “rampaging vengeance demon” is the knowledge that this would hurt our two daughters.
The third party doing that would be rude. Him doing it would be a betrayal.
But also? We’ve been a couple for 13 years, married 8, and have two kidlets together.
When I thought I had got back together with an ex and he “decided” I had been too drunk to know what I was doing so we should stay friends instead, and a mutual friend told me that actually he had got together with the friend’s ex the following day – my response was to laugh. I was mainly irritated that he hadn’t been honest with me and was trying to tell me what I thought and how I felt about it. We hadn’t been together for 9 months or so at that point, while I had thought we were giving things another shot I was basically about as committed as if this had happened in the first few days of a new relationship.
Being in a relationship with people doesn’t confer ownership – but it is a social convention to respect other people’s commitments, and to keep the ones you make. And yeah, if it’s not working then ending it and moving on is an option – but moving on and starting a new relationship before ending the old one is frowned upon.
Because if you’re in a monogamous relationship you’re saying, “hey, I’m currently seeing this person and not interested in someone else”. Joyce knows this. Like, technically it’s not wrong to hit on people at their job, but it’s still a shitty thing to do cause of the power differential between employee and customer. Even if Jacob might not have outright said “no Joyce I’m not interested” being in a monogamous relationship is a soft no. Boundary pushing behaviour is not charming.
The debate centers around her approach–is she showing an interest, or just trying to undermine Jacob’s interest in Raidah, planning on making her move after they break up? The former is, frankly, fine and easy for Jacob to address if he chooses; the latter is more manipulative than a lot of people are comfortable with.
No. It really doesn’t. For some people it may, but not overall. There’s a fundamental gap here between “hitting on people in relationships/trying to break them up is just wrong” and the “it’s only wrong if you’re nasty or underhanded about it” crowds.
I do think at least in intent, she’s going beyond “showing an interest”. Though her actions may not be particularly bad yet, she’s gotten to “it’s not stealing because he’s supposed to be mine” in this strip. She’s had a “bring it on” staredown with her “rival”.
Now that’s an answer that has some logic in it beyond “It just isn’t done!”. Thank you for that. This reasoning at least is based on Jacob’s agency: he made a monogamous choice and Joyce should respect that.
And I agree, boundary pushing in that case would not be appropriate. Unfortunately the way I remember the storyline it was Jacob who let Joyce inside his boundaries, which gave her at least some justification to be a little flirty.
How the fuck is that in any way comparable? Choosing to end her own damn relationship with someone is nothing like manipulating a friend and hoping to break up his relationship.
It is not even slightly immoral to dump someone. No matter the reason.
yeah even if it was shitty (it wasn’t) it still wouldn’t be comparable as it’s a totally different thing! i have to wonder how you think that should’ve gone.
1. Dorothy should have been upfront with Dan from the beginning that she wanted to break up before he went to Indiana first. Honesty is important to relationships and I think she made a mistake but that’s forgivable.
Plus Dan was being a creepy weirdo.
2. She gave Walky tons of mixed signals about their relationship, which she admits was wrong.
I think basically with the fact she’s been in some complicated relationship drama that she should be more sympathetic since Joyce was very much trying to supportive of HER. In fact, wasn’t she invited to pizza as a way to help her get over Walky?
I think she should say to Joyce, “Relationships are complicated and you like someone in a relationship. But is that really a good thing?” Talk to her as a friend, don’t judge.
I’m pretty sure she was invited to pizza not to help her, but because Joyce was “reclaiming her time” (over Dorothy’s protests about going to lunch making the break-up uncomfortable even). Joyce is at her most supportive vis-a-vis Dorothy when it is in her own best interests to be supportive.
I agree that Dorothy is being judgey in a non-constructive way, especially since she immediately walks away, but honestly I feel like this is a “if you don’t see why this is wrong, I can’t help you” situation for her. Based on so many other comments on here supporting what Joyce is doing, I imagine many commentators who agree with Dorothy can relate to that.
Speaking of which, I’m not sure Joyce deserves Dorothy’s support in this. And that’s coming from someone who believes Joyce has an appropriate avenue here to get what she wants. And that is to tell Jacob, “I have feelings for you. I know you’re in a relationship and I respect that, but I would’ve regretted it if I didn’t tell you.” Her deliberate attempts to lure him away, on the other hand, both disrespect his relationship (she’s essentially treating him as if he’s single and he’s not), and don’t give him an opportunity to shut it down, because he’s not even aware of what she’s doing–even if he was aware, I’m not even sure he’d be comfortable shutting it down, because it’s been subtle enough that Joyce has plausible deniability and then he’d look like a jerk for accusing her.
TL;DR it’s not bad to let him know he has another option. It’s bad to do so in a way that a) refuses to acknowledge that he is in a relationship, and b) doesn’t make it clear enough to let him shut it down.
Okay, but they’re in a defined relationship and Joyce’s goal is specifically to split that established relationship. Jacob isn’t “dating” Raidah as in “casually meeting up with to see if they click.” They’re together, and it doesn’t matter if that’s been the arrangement for five years or five minutes, if you set out with the specific intention of breaking up two people in that arrangement, you are definitively more in the wrong than someone who breaks up with someone they themselves are with because of differing life paths.
i agree with the point in theory but the obvious exceptions have to be named: wouldn’t you help a friend get out of a toxic/abusive relationship? that’s having a goal specifically to split an established relationship. rules like this can’t be rigidly applied in all cases.
Most people don’t help friends get out of a toxic/abusive relationship by moving in on that relationship. It’s.. kind of a different situation altogether.
No, trying to manipulate a friend out of a toxic relationship is generally a bad idea. There’s a reason the standard advice for that situation is to be available as a support network and make it clear that you are and not “try to trick them into dumping them.”
Also does Joyce actually know the relationship is toxic or does she just not like Raidah? This is a genuine question, I can’t remember if she’s aware of any of the things Raidah’s done except for her beef with Sarah.
Raidah has the role of rival in the rom-com that’s playing out in Joyce’s head. She’s there to be swept aside in the rush of their glamorous courtship.
It doesn’t matter how long or short they’ve been dating, it’s still disrespectful to both parties and their relationship. If it had been Dotty and Walky in this scenario or Ruth and Billie, would you still be like “oh well they’ve only been dating for three weeks” ?
I wouldn’t be upset with Ruth if she decided Billie wasn’t for her and she started dating, say, Roz or Sierra. They’ve been through a lot of intense moments but I think time commitment is a form of commitment.
And no one would be upset with Jacob if he decided Raidah wasn’t for him and started dating Joyce.
The question is would you be upset with Sierra for trying to break up Ruth and Billie so she could date Ruth? (Don’t be silly. No one could be upset with Sierra.) (And there are a lot of other problems with that analogy. Roz making a play for Walky while he and Dorothy were still dating would make a better one, though Roz wouldn’t likely be interested in Walky or in a serious relationship. Maybe Amber? Not aggressive enough. I don’t know. Someone.)
Breaking up a couple because you think they’re making each other unhappy is one thing. Breaking them up because you want one of them to yourself is another.
yeah which is too bad because this could so easily happen if radiah stopped trying to be the game master and just told jacob she was uncomfortable with joyce’s obvious advances.
Raidah has the little problem of being the jealous girlfriend of someone who objects to jealous girlfriends. If she tells Jacob she objects to Joyce’s attempts at inveigling him, and he doesn’t recognise them for what they are, she’ll have cooked her own goose.
Its been left ambiguous whether his previous breakups were because jealousy was a dealbreaker to him, or because of the jealous ex-girlfriends breaking up with him instead. Either way, he seems to be rational, and if Raidah frames it in a way which makes it clear that she’s not being jealous, I don’t see why he’d be anything but understanding, so Raidah isn’t as devoid of choices as you make it seem
The question can be raised, though, if Raidah is aware of that. If they’re relatively recently dating, prior relationships may have simply been discussed lightly: “Yeah, I had a few relationships, but they ended badly because my girlfriends were jealous of casual friendships,” would be enough to make Raidah cautious on that front.
I mean, sure, thats always a possibility, but I’d much rather have Joyce find out on her own, because there’s always a (small) chance if Jacob tells her to stop that she’s not going to see that its her behaviour thats the problem, and instead think its because he likes Raidah more, and come to the conclusion that “next time i’ll just try harder!”
That’s basically what Roomies!–Joyce did with Danny over and over, right? Danny tells her to stop, Joyce ignores the epiphany, and resolves to try harder to get him?
No, the point she should have stopped was before she started. Purposely flirting with someone already in a relationship is disrespectful and puts them in the uncomfortable position of having to work out if you are just flirting or being nice and finding the right words to convince you to stop doing it.
Pretty sure that it’s Jacob’s call on whether or not he gets “stolen.” Joyce is being remarkably straightforward re: flirting and engaging in an actual friendship with Jacob.
No, being straightforward would be saying ‘I like you. If you like me too, I’m available. If not, I understand.’ It’s clearly pretty controversial whether what she’s doing is wrong but she’s definitely not being straight up.
I’m gonna go with “most real people”? I don’t know about you, but I don’t interpret everyone who’s ever been friendly toward me as implicitly asking me to break up with my girlfriend. If she wants to date him, she should say it, not imply it, especially if she’s expecting him to end an existing relationship for that purpose.
If you want someone to break up with their girlfriend and be with you, you need to earn it. If you ask them right off the bat, of course you’ll fail. Joyce isn’t forcing anything. She’s flirting with Jacob and he’s doing it right back.
Definitely not my experience. If you say that outloud you’re a weirdo and instantly sent to pack sand.
The fact that open frank communication and consent questions are popularly seen as unsexy and a marker of awkwardness is kind of the biggest issue in the dating scene, but it IS there and not acknowledging it is mostly just leads to resentment.
I mean, I say stuff like that out loud. (Eg. I typed “would you like to go to Coney Island on Saturday; I’m totally asking you out!”) But, I’m very, very in the minority on it. Nerdy boyfriends consider me a diamond in the rough for being that crystal clear about my flirtations.
Okay, I know Old testament is old covenant and Jesus is the new or whatever, but wasn’t the one of the Ten Commandments “Don’t covet another’s wife/husband” or something to that affect? Like.
Joyce, this isn’t cool! Not even by the standards you say you believe in?
I don’t think this is what people meant by “broadening your horizons.”
If I was dating someone and we were monogamous, and they cheated, and just shrugged and said, “not married” they were not worth getting into that relationship to begin with.
That’s like. THE shittiest excuse.
“I don’t care we didn’t saw “we’re open to other partners” we aren’t married so I am allowed to fuck whoever, right?
That’s. That’s not even polyam or an “open relationship” that’s just being a MAJOR dick.
No, if we’re talking religion, it’s kind of everything. That’s sorta why they do the whole marrying part of marriage. They don’t do it for the cake and presents alone.
We’re not talking about some common-law marriage or something here, either, so even if you want to stretch it, you’re talking about characters who have been dating for maybe a month tops. That’s not comparable to a marriage in any way, shape, or form.
Raidah is kind of an asshole but pretty sure Joyce nor Raidah is into polyam and so that is going after a taken dude. That isn’t cool.
If they say they are together, and exclusive, that isn’t cool for you to do.
Like, even if Raidah’s asshole-ness makes her “have it coming” in some capacity, what Joyce is doing NOW is kinda shit.
And Dorothy. You. You need some self care. I get you don’t want distractions, but Walky was a bit more than that. That’s why this hurts for both of you. If you just through yourself into your work they Walky is about into Amber’s bun’s, I think you will both burn out for very different reasons.
Well. Actually, the same reason.
PRESSURE. Pushing down on me, pushing okay never mind.
“Cheating, or trying to illicit cheating, doesn’t matter if two people are not married.” is the vibe I am getting from responses.
But they aren’t.
Sarah told Joyce to do it because she hates Raidah. Jacob is reciprocating.
Okay they aren’t fucking, and Jacob and Raidah’s relationship is only a few weeks old. And if it didn’t mean anything, and they were just flirting, and Raidah didn’t care? Another thing.
But Joyce is expressing interest. TO JOYCE. It means something. Jacob did it BACK. To JACOB, it means something. And it means enough TO RAIDAH, to insult and belittle Joyce to her FACE, because she can tell something is going on.
Joyce is not a rebound. Joyce is finding someone new after a long break up.
She is someone who is trying to LITTERALLY get someone to cheat. Someone who is in a committed relationship, with ONE person, to IGNORE the terms of a relationship for HER needs. And Jacob is playing along.
How is this not triggering Joyce’s STAGGERING amount of “temptress/sinner” anxiety?
I don’t know about you? But if I am in a relationship with ONE person, and ONLY one person, and they sleep around or flirting with someone when I have expressed I am not cool with it? That’s not healthy. It’s not healthy when I have done it, either.
This isn’t Raidah saying “You can’t hang out with any girls ever because I need to control your friendships and your life.”
This is her, literally going: “You think you can steal my dude? You are an infant and not worth my time.”
Like, maybe how she’s handling may not be the best, but she’s the MOST right here!
Sarah was worried Joyce would be taken advantage of, her doing this is taking advantage of Joyce. Joyce is saying her feelings for Jacob are more important than Raidah’s feelings and their ALREADY EXISTING RELATIONSHIP. If the tables were turned, she’d flip! And for good reason! And Jacob is fully aware, and still engaging.
This. is. not. Cool.
God. Like. I hope that when I date someone, and if we commit to a one on one relationship, that their excuse for cheating is “we aren’t married.”
Though I agree with pretty much everything you say, I just want to point out that “cheating” isn’t on anyone’s mind. Joyce doesn’t want Jacob to cheat with her, she wants him to dump Raidah and go out with her instead.
Whatever cheating actually would be in her mind. It’s not like she’s planning to have sex even after he breaks up with Raidah and they start dating.
Also, the number of times that people have rationalized that it’s ‘okay’ for Joyce to flirt with Jacob is kinda unsettling.
Yeah it’s Jacob’s decision whether or not it goes anywhere, and Raidah’s kinda being a terrible person right now, but it doesn’t make what Joyce is doing right or okay. You don’t come onto people who are in a monogamous relationship.
There are two conflicting ideologies at play here. There’s “All is fair in Love and War” vs “Don’t be a home Wrecker.” If only there was a latter option.
Talking about your relationship? If you are dating one person, date them. If you don’t want to, don’t/stop. If you are dating more than one person, and people are cool with it, do it. If not? Stop. Date people who are.
Joyce is only “home wrecking” cause they are two folks in a *closed* (as far as we can tell) Relationship. And, no. That’s not Cool.
Like, it’s not even cool by Joyce’s OWN STANDARDS. I get that they are changing, but she’s STRUGGLED with that change. Why is this easy for her? She’s so sexually repressed that TALKING to Jacob should be hard.
It’s perfectly cool by Joyce’s standards of romance. But that’s because Joyce’s standards of romance are fucked up. They’re based on weird Biblical interpretation and bad romance stories, but by those screwed up standards she’s fine.
He’s not married, so that’s no barrier. If they’re meant to be together, then whatever she does (as the romance heroine) is fine. She’ll beat the rival and win his heart because that’s how the story goes. If not, though she probably hasn’t really considered this, then it won’t work out and he’ll stick with Raidah and everything will still be fine.
Nope. They’re meant to be together. Jacob isn’t Raidah’s “stuff”. Or her husband.
Bible rules can be twisted to mean pretty much anything you want them to. 🙂
I really don’t understand what you twos’ point is about Joyce. In her view, Jacob hasn’t married Raidah yet. Until and unless he does, he’s fair game for a good old-fashioned seduction. Remember, Joyce is thinking she wants to seduce and marry Jacob. She wants to deliver the goods.
While I can see trying to come on to people who are in a monogamous relationship being a jackass thing to do if you intended on loving them and leaving them, what exactly is wrong with deciding to compete for a monogamous relationship with someone if you’re willing to go the whole way with them?
‘Until marriage’ is a terrible qualifier. What if the couple in question can’t get married legally? Or if they just don’t want to go through the whole process and are happy with each other?
If someone’s in a monogamous relationship and they don’t appear to be unhappy, you don’t mess with that. ‘Thinking’ that they’d be happier with someone else is borderline arrogant if they’re not in actual emotional/physical danger.
And how exactly is one supposed to know that X and Y in an apparently monogamous relationship are satisfied in it if there is no Z who actually makes an offer for either X or Y to switch?
I agree that marriage is a strange place to draw a line that should not be crossed, but so is any given place. What I don’t understand is why you think a line should be drawn at “apparently monogamous relationship” but not at “marriage” so strongly that you think Joyce worse for the second choice.
You’re the one who put the justification at ‘if and until they’re married, it’s okay’. If they’re not open to seeing other people, it’s not okay to knowingly go after someone who’s attached.
Your first argument is like the ‘how do you know you’re really gay if you haven’t tried otherwise?’ argument. If people are happy, they’re happy.
Yeah, being in a closed monogamous relationship is basically saying: “I’m dating this person, I’m not going to date anyone else.” And besides, Jacob’s given no indication that he’s unhappy with Raidah. Ignoring that is a pretty damn shitty thing to do.
Actually, I’m not the one who put that justification there. I am positing that Joyce put her justification there because it fits with her hilariously literal Christianity. Bible says, “you shall not covet your neighbor’s spouse.” Joyce says, “well they aren’t married yet, and so until they are, I’m not in sin.” And this leads her to make the clearest possible play for Jacob here.
Actually, Joyce said: “The whirlwind romance with my dashingly handsome husband is all the glamour I need.” It’s obvious to us as readers that Joyce is thinking about Jacob here. She is envisioning herself as getting married to him, as naive as that looks to us. So “they’re not married yet” is totally in play.
Personally I think this all would be okay anyway, and Joyce is conducting herself quite admirably, if for shallow reasons. She’s right in thinking she’s a good match for Jacob now. She’s wrong in chronically underestimating her own potential for change.
“monogamous relationship” and “marriage” are not equally arbitrary. “monogamous relationship” means “i want to be with this one person and it’s important to me”. that’s not arbitrary, that’s the something important being made explicit. disregarding that is extremely disrespectful.
meanwhile drawing the line at marriage is an arbitrary distinction; it’s “that desire to be with one person isn’t important but these very specific rituals are”.
Interesting; while I agree with you that monogamous relationship and marraige are not equally arbitrary, I wouldn’t ever have thought to rank the arbitrariness in that manner.
A person can wake up on Friday in Detroit in a monogamous relationship with another, then wake up on Saturday in Vegas and decide they’re not, and then wake up on Monday in Detroit again, again monogamous, all with the same person, all consensually.
In contrast, marriage, as a legal and contractual status, is not easy to reverse. If we’re married today, chances are we can’t decide (even consensually!) that we’re not going to be married tomorrow.
So if I have any indication that a married couple prizes fidelity in their marriage I wouldn’t disturb them. And Joyce wouldn’t touch that with a 10-foot pole.
But being in a monogamous relationship? Let’s not forget how real and common serial monogamy is, and that’s -with- the marriage. For Z to say to X, “Dump Y and be with me” totally respects X’s monogamy as long as Z is single. And it’s not even an arse thing for Z to do as long as Z intends to deliver X a relationship at least as fulfilling as Z thinks X has with Y. That’s exactly what Joyce is doing.
But it doesnt, because X’s monogamy is based on being in a relationship with Y, and therefore Z asking X to break it off would be disrespectful to X’s commitment and choice to be in a monogamous relationship
Oh interesting. You’re thinking about respecting the relationship with Y on presumption that to X, Y is worth being monogamous for, but probably not a generic W. I disagree with your presumption, but your logic makes sense.
Nono, is that why you said it was probably arrogant for Z to make an offer?
I always thought most people’s monogamy is a personal habit not contingent on the partner. That’s why I presumed it would be reasonable for Z to offer to X as long as Z was single and capable of supporting monogamy.
Not really, I’m trying to say that because X is in a relationship with Y, and because they’re monogamous, it would be disrespectful to break off that relationship, because X being monogamous and in a relationship with Y sends a message that they’re together and are only exclusively together, and if Z tries to break the relationship, Z is essentially ignoring that message and the choice that X and Y have made to be together, if that makes sense.
You can break up with someone if you’re not satisfied, even if there isn’t a ‘Z’ around forcing the issue.
Default assumption should be if someone’s in a relationship they’re happy with it. If they’re talking to you about how they’re not happy, then you can advise them to break up. If they don’t, assume they’re pulling the old “my wife doesn’t understand me” routine in order to get you to cheat with them.
“If they’re talking to you about how they’re not happy, then you can advise them to break up. If they don’t, assume they’re pulling the old “my wife doesn’t understand me” routine in order to get you to cheat with them.”
YES.
I’d like to add something to the first part, though:
“Default assumption should be if someone’s in a relationship, you are not entitled to them, period. Unless both are cool with it.”
Even THAT can be shortened to “You are entitled to no one. If you aren’t dating that person or couple, or what ever, and you being a part of it violates how they defined the relationship TOGETHER, that’s cheating.”
And if you do that when the person you actually are interested says “no” and you won’t respect THAT. That’s even worse. Which is thankfully not the case here.
Okay that’s not a moral system anyone has and we know it’s not the moral system Joyce has specifically because she’s here contextualizing it as, “Okay because it’s for true love.” So she knows it’s not okay otherwise.
It’s not okay to try to get someone to cheat on their SO just because they’re not married. At all.
Joyce is not “getting Jacob to cheat on Raidah”. That’s the whole point of a few comics back when Joyce and Raidah lock eyes.
Joyce has challenged Raidah for Jacob. What Jacob does now is ABOVE board for all three of them (okay, possibly not Jacob, if he continues thinking about pizza!) Go back and re-read if you didn’t understand this point…
That’s a silly argument. All Jacob need do to assure his own best interest is choose expediently between his suitors. Unfortunately, many people being fought over don’t choose promptly, and Jacob’s thinking about pizza does not forebode well.
he already chose. he entered a monogamous relationship, which is a contract that says “for the duration of this relationship, i will not be pursuing other relationships”. it’s shitty, i don’t do it, but that’s what it is and you need to respect people’s choices and not try to undermine them for personal gain.
also ew at this language about “challenging”. i don’t even know how to express how fucking gross this is. i hope someone more articulate than me can put this into words.
I hope so too. Usually when I find a challenge is gross, it’s because the person who initiates the challenge is doing so to derogate the agency of their target, i.e., Z says to X, “you can’t be with Y, because I beat Y”. Joyce is not doing that here (yet); so far she’s just attracting Jacob. Fundamentally her play is, “Hey, you have a choice”, not “Hey, you don’t have one”, so I don’t think her challenge is gross…
But if you think that it’s gross for a different reason please tell me, I really would want to know…
Maybe it’s because challenge normally is about winning something, which here would mean Jacob is the “prize”, so to speak, which seems pretty dehumanizing and objectifying.
She’s not challenging Jacob at this point. She’s challenging Raidah. Why would Joyce, who’s normally very unfiltered, not just outright tell Jacob, ‘hey, I think you’ll be happier with me than Raidah’? Because she already knows it’s something people frown upon, to the point that she had to pre-justify it to Dorothy (‘it’s not stealing if it’s meant to be!’).
I mean, if you honestly can’t see why moving in on someone who’s in a relationship is kinda predatory and Not Okay, I’m not sure how else to put it to you.
I honestly can’t see why making offers to people who are in relationships is Not Okay. It’s always seemed to me to be even more Not Okay to make an offer to a person who isn’t in a relationship, and who isn’t making any offers themselves; with such a person, why would you assume they were interested in a relationship at all? With someone in a relationship, at least you know they’re in the market in the first place…
Someone in a relationship should be off the market. They shouldn’t be expressing interest in other people unless it’s an okay thing in the terms of their relationship, and you should be implicitly respecting that.
I mean, you’re suggesting that it’s better to hit on someone who’s in a relationship than to chance on someone who’s single. The latter case, worst case scenario you’ll just get a ‘no’, in the former you can end up hurting two people.
Yes, that’s exactly my suggestion. I think what you’re saying makes sense for one person but not in aggregate. Even if a whole bunch of people hit on the same person who’s in a relationship, the suitors winnow themselves down to the 1 or 2 who are actually worth considering, and who may cause some drama with the current partner. But if even a small number of people proposition a single person who isn’t interested, they end up getting harassed and probably leave the relationship market for the long term because of it. I’ll take the drama over the harassment.
… if it’s shitty for the first reason, it’s shitty for the second reason. Your ultimate intent doesn’t matter; the action in itself is the shitty thing, here. Instead of respecting that there are two people in a relationship, and as far as you know are happy, you’re setting out to tear them apart, literally only caring about your own feelings over those of both the person you desire, and the person that they’re currently with.
Well, but what what if as far as you know, you could give your target at least as much as their current partner could?
Again, this is my point; Joyce is not trying to hook up with Jacob, then leave Jacob after she’s had her fun, without caring whether Jacob or Raidah get back together or not. That would be an arse thing to do, but that’s not what’s going on here, at least not -yet-.
No, Joyce wants Jacob for keeps, and is offering herself as Raidah’s competition and rival. I think this is pretty clean and straight, at least between Joyce and Raidah. If she succeeds, Jacob and Raidah breaking up is a natural and intended consequence. If she fails, Jacob and Raidah stay together. Either way, presumably Jacob ends up at least as happy as he would be if Joyce had not offered, and it’s a zero-sum game between Joyce and Raidah, neither of whose feelings are worth more or less than the other.
Of course the irony here is that Jacob may not be as aware as he needs to be in this situation, which creates the possibility that Jacob will actually be made unhappy…but that would be Jacob’s fault, not Joyce’s.
You’re ignoring how Jacob being in a monogamous relationship sends a message that he’s with Raidah, and he doesn’t want to be with anyone else, and Joyce is deliberately bulldozing right over that.
Also, you’re disregarding any fallout that might fall onto Jacob no matter whether Joyce succeeds or not. Already we can see that Joyce is causing tension in Raidah and Jacob’s relationship, tension which will probably still be there no matter if Joyce succeeds or fails.
Of course Joyce is bulldozing over that. That’s Raidah’s vision of the board, and Joyce is on the other side. She’s a bona fide rival now. She had better be playing to win.
I think you may be ignoring how quickly Jacob could shut Joyce down if he so chose. After he becomes aware of the rivalry, one subconscious eyeroll would do it. But he’s not -doing- that. Instead, he keeps subconsciously giving Joyce chances.
Okay, if you think that Joyce not respecting Jacob’s choice to be in a closed relationship with Raidah is perfectly fine, I vehemently disagree with that and have nothing more to say on that.
Also, even if Jacob does shut down Joyce, the tension between Jacob and Raidah WILL STILL BE THERE. Jacob shutting it down might temporarily alleviate it, sure, but it’ll still be there. And besides, he’s very much NOT aware of the rivalry. I’m pretty sure he’s completely oblivious about the whole thing, consciously or subconsciously.
Screw it, I’ll weigh in. The argument seems to be what’s the answer to, “Is Joyce being a shitty person?”
I think your argument fails because Joyce isn’t making a clear offer. She is playing a game. It LOOKS like Raidah sees and is willing to play the game, but lets face it – Jacob is pretty damned clueless here.
He doesn’t seem to see others being attracted to him: Joyce, Ethan when seeing him lifting weights in their room, Sarah. He doesn’t seem to see the weird battle between Joyce and Raidah (thinking about pizza).
It’s not a clear offer. It’s sneaky, it’s deceitful, and Joyce should be better than that by her own standards as she has shown them – wanting people to be honest. With her, with themselves. She may faulter, but in the end, she values honesty. Making a clear offer would be better, even if strange by most accepted standards. It’s the honest way to do it.
It’s also disrespectful of the existing relationship and the autonomy of Jacob. Seducing somebody away from their significant other is not unlike tricking them. Attempting to do so, even with happily ever after in mind, assumes you’re better than the person they are with, assumes they would want to end the relationship if they knew they could have you instead, and completely disregards the feelings of the person you want them to leave, and the value the one you want might have in the person they are currently with.
That’s all typically agreed on, negative behavior. Joyce is being shitty.
Now, this is all coming from somebody who’d actually like to see Joyce with Jacob. But if she seduces him away, without making her intentions clear to Jacob, they have a relationship built on negative behavior. I for one hope Dotty gets through to her and she just levels with Jacob and gives him the autonomy he deserves because he is a person, not some thing to be won. That is how Joyce is treating him. Like a thing. That’s shitty.
I don’t know, that seems like a very black and white view of relationships. Dating has a lot of stages that range from just testing out compatibility all the way to full on commitment. I don’t see any reason that every single person that is at any stage of dating should be off limits.
And, while maybe I forgot an instance, I haven’t really seen anything that Joyce has done that I would consider outright sabotage. She put herself out there and is flirting the extent she knows how while highlighting the pros of herself versus the cons of Raidah.
As others have said, the decision is ultimately going to be up to Jacob.
(I agree with the rest of your sentiment, but I find raw lemons pretty tasty – and I’m even known to buy myself a raw lime as a snack from time to time.)
I’m glad Dorothy is calling out this BS
Joyce seems to think she’s living in a romcom, though was she actually allowed to watch those? there’s not a lot of emphasis on Jesus and most of them feature unmarried working women who are not actively looking for a Christian husband
She also watched Titanic. And while I never saw it, it’s my understanding that an affianced young woman got involved with a man she just met who drew her like one of his French girls and then he gave his life for her/she wouldn’t let him on the piece of wood.
Somewhere in that last sentence is probably a good example of what Joyce thinks is true love.
now I’m wondering if Joyce watched CHRISTIAN romantic movies, which are usually patently awful. Mr Willis, did Joyce watch “Old Fashioned”? did she think it was a good relationship??
“Blake wrote that. Apparently the tiger was on fire. Maybe his tail got struck by lightning or something. Flammable felines; what a weird subject for poetry.”
Tyger, tyger, burning bright
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearsome symmetry?
(Then there are four stanzas of weird stuff about God, then the first stanza repeats with “Dare frame” replacing “Could frame”. Blake is wild stuff, but I don’t think I get it.
The zebra’s stripes are lacking hues,
So they don’t compare to you-know-whose.
Orange, black and white is what to wear!
It’s haute couture for those who dare!
It’s camouflage, and stylish, too!
Yes, tigers look the best, it’s true!
“Tiger burning in the sun, fast asleep his day is done. Lying there twas warmth he sought, the sun has made his tummy hot. One sad fact he overlooked, his brain is now completely cooked.”
Her last convo with Joe was the one in which Joe told her that Sarah wanted her to be with Jacob (inadvertently setting Joyce on the path of actively and intentionally going after Jacob herself in the process), obliquely referred to in today’s strip as “yesterday afternoon”.
Neither did I, Brad. Man, that was recent ish, too. There’s so much going on both in the strip and in life I forgot.
But, I think that makes me even MORE confused as to WHY she would do THAT as her reaction to that. Even if she sees Raidah as “less worthy” it’s still. IT’S NOT ABOUT WHETHER YOU *CAN* Joyce it’s shitty you WOULD if you know he’s WITH someone in a commited relationship
On the one hand, Joyce shouldn’t be throwing herself at Jacob. He’s not a prize to be won, he’s a human being. On that same note, Raidah is toxic as hell and clearly emotionally manipulative. Her relationship with Jacob has barely begun and it’s already clearly abusive.
On the other hand, Dorothy is projecting here. She builds people up and clearly blames them when they don’t live up to the standard she’s set forth. It’s unfair of her to expect Joyce to not pursue what she wants while she herself forces others to the wayside to pursue what she wants.
Ultimately, there are no innocents here except for maybe Jacob. I hope Joyce realizes treating him like a thing to be won is the wrong move and that Dorothy stops judging people so harshly because they don’t fit her mental image of them.
This is a false equivalence, though. Dorothy ended her *own* relationships to pursue what she wants. I think she can do that and still be disappointed in someone who seeks to end someone *else’s* relationship solely to date one of the involved parties.
What’s going on with Walky right now is not an end in any way, shape, or form though. She doesn’t mean to, but she’s stringing that boy along in many ways that you see mostly in college.
Because she has broken up with him twice, and the first time they had the hots on an elevator, and the second time she almost chased after him and boned him.
Both times she ended the relationship without resolution. She knows Walky has the emotional maturity of a preteen and both times she doesn’t give him opportunities to be honest about it. Nor does she seem to care. There are still lingering strings that do not need to be there and because she chose, both times, to end it in a way that isn’t functionally healthy in any way shape or form (“taking a break” and this current iteration).
Both times, she took control and without consideration for either of their feelings, ended it in a way that didn’t actually help either of them deal with the issues.
It’s not intentional, and it’s not malicious, and it’s probably for the best considering her aspirations, but it’s not healthy in how it’s being done nor is it considerate of anyone, not even her.
And that’s fine, since you know, she’s allowed to have control of her own life, but all of that together means that their relationship still exists in some weird nebulous space of “We’re broken up, but we see eachother, we’re going to talk with one another, and… things”. There’s been no closure for either party.
Walky is just as responsible, since he’s taking the opposite road and pretending nothing’s wrong, but he hasn’t been the one generally taking action in the relationship. And he probably should. Someone telling you “We’re on a break” and then letting you two do stuff the first time you see eachother isn’t how he deserves to be treated. And he should be willing to be more honest.
It’s like two orbiting bodies pretending that they’re separate now. They’re not. They’ve said the words, they haven’t actually come to that conclusion.
She’s not “stringing him along” in any way whatsoever. The “nebulous space” their relationship now exists within is “friends who used to date”. It’s actually well-traveled territory.
Shifting from a romantic relationship to a platonic one takes time because feelings are messy, but the way they’ve gone about it so far is as healthy as one could hope for at this stage.
She was also plenty considerate of both her feelings and Walky’s. She thought going on pause would work, but it didn’t. When she realized that it wasn’t enough and that it was unfair to Walky to drag it out further, she ended it. She’s now been trying to give him whatever space he needs while trying to make sure he understands he doesn’t need to avoid her. It will no doubt continue to be awkward for a while, but they’ll be fine.
Even Walky has been handling it reasonably well. He was unhealthily continuing to focus too much on Dorothy’s emotional needs to the exclusion of his own at first, but talking it out with Amber seems like it’s already helped him there.
Both of them still need to figure out how to better manage their respective workloads, but the breakup was handled just fine.
She literally wanted to jump him while he was dealing with that. She had to be physically stopped. She would have done so unless someone had physically stopped her.
That is -not- -okay-. That is disrespectful as fuck and honestly, you glossing over that isn’t cool.
That is -not- emotionally healthy.
There has been at -no point- any confirmation from the character of Dorothy or her actions that she will stick to this.
So no, this is not the nebulous “they used to date” because only one side has shown actual self control and restraint over this and it’s been Walky, and I can’t believe I’m saying that.
Maybe it’s being glossed over because the strip you’re referring to glossed it over *itself* by making that comment the set up to a punchline? This is a drama-comedy webcomic, after all, and Willis makes it very clear what aspects are dramatic (this strip today) and what aspects are comedic. But even if we say all punchlines should be taken seriously, is it such a crime to say thoughts out loud? Sure, it’s not very healthy that the thought occurred to Dorothy, but you’re building it up like she began sprinting after him and Joyce had to tackle her. She stepped in his direction and Joyce laid a hand on her shoulder. You honestly think she had the intention of following him and going through with the “quickie”, after announcing it to Joyce? If that was what she really planned to do, she’s smart enough to know that if she announced it, Joyce would insist that she go to lunch.
But she announced it because, again, set-up to a punchline.
Maybe you could make a case for stringing him along with the pause, but she herself realized it, hence the break-up. At this point, both of them are aware that they are totally broken up. That’s hardly stringing anyone along, regardless of how seriously you take one comment from one strip.
It wouldn’t be the first time a “just a punchline” has come back to be a plot or character point. They’re currently both aware they’re broken up, like they were both aware they were on pause when they jumped each other in the elevator. This is a more drastic step, but it doesn’t actually mean it’s going to take any better.
I’m not at all convinced Dorothy and Walky are done. Whether that’s a good thing or not, I don’t know.
Dorothy had a momentary lapse in judgement because she was horny and the break up was still fresh enough that getting back together would’ve been super easy. If Joyce hadn’t been there to stop her, she might’ve done it, but she’d have regretted it almost immediately.
The possibility/hope of maybe getting back together is almost ALWAYS something that lingers for one or both people after a breakup, even when its a much more hostile breakup than this was.
The fact that her resolve faltered does not make this unhealthy. It means it’s difficult. If emotionally healthy decisions were always simple and easy, most people would have a lot fewer regrets.
However, it still follows the pattern she’d already established. Set limits for the relationship, break them herself. Request the pause, break the pause with sex. Break up, go for the comfort sex. At least the last one was stopped.
If it had actually been a one-time thing, not part of a pattern, I’d be less concerned about it.
I also think the breakup was a mistake from the start. I think they’re good together, they’re good for each other and they’re still in love with each other. I don’t think Dorothy’s idea that relationships are a distraction that she needs to avoid to focus on her real goals is actually healthy for her.
If she doesn’t get back together with Walky, she’s likely to find another relationship and throw herself into that until it becomes too much of a distraction and she has to dump him to focus herself again.
I’d rather see her work through that with Walky than repeat the process again.
Even if breaking up ends up being a decision she regrets, it was a good decision.
She’s struggling to balance her workload just to allow for her own emotional needs. Fitting in a whole boyfriend with needs of his own (and her sense of obligation to be the “perfect girlfriend” by helping him even when she doesn’t have time) was ramping up the difficulty for her.
Even if it turns out there were BETTER decisions she could’ve made, it was a good decision. If you have to figure out how to handle something through trial and error, that’s better than paralyzing yourself with indecision for ages while you agonize over finding the optimal course of action
You can’t see the future. You won’t always be able to tell what’s going to work for you in advance. It’s okay to try to feel things out when you’re not sure
Agreed that it might have been the best she could see at the time, but I think that’s her flaw and not a good decision at all. It all ties back to her thoughts just before kissing Walky for the first time. “I don’t have time to waste on this. It’s self-sabotage. A distraction.”
She’s stepping backwards, rejecting what she did try and throwing herself back on the “relationships are self-sabotage” track and that’s going to be worse for her than any amount of distraction.
At least that’s my prediction. Don’t really see how else it can go. It’s certainly not going to be as simple as “dumped Walky, caught up on homework and is now past the crisis.”
They’re both responsible for the state of that relationship, however. Dorothy isn’t making an attempt to *manipulate* Walky, and he’s just as capable of saying no to any continuation thereof as she is. She should certainly be more responsible, since she’s the one who called things off, but she’s hardly going out of her way to “string him along.” She’s just conflicted – you know, as in, she’s human?
Because Joyce has been told, by Joe, that what she’s doing is wrong, she even knows that what she’s doing is wrong and yet she’s still trying to kid herself that her behaviour is ok. It isn’t and good on Dorothy for telling Joyce outright that’s not ok
She’s a teenager. A highly religious teenager who’s entire world view is based around false, overly judgemental, overly religious, under explained crap.
You know, the type that they tell all day long that premarital sex is bad but are also the highest demographic to have premarital sex?
Why is there no slack being cut here in that regard?
You’re right that it’s fine for Dorothy to tell Joyce it’s outright not okay.
It’s not fine for Dorothy to lay out some guilt tripping “I expected better of you” when no, she shouldn’t have, because Joyce is a sheltered CHILD compared to most college students (that’s saying a lot). And Dorothy knows that. And if Dorothy was acting in good faith, she wouldn’t walk away after laying down a guilt bomb.
There’s a huge difference between, “You know this is wrong.” and “You know this is wrong. I expected better of you. You disappoint me.”
I think it’s common decency to not chase after someone in a committed relationship.
And I don’t think it’s building someone up to expect common decency, especially in this case where Joyce has both been an example of common decency as well as someone who judged others for their, in her view, lack of morals.
Oh my god THANK YOU! I’ve been waiting for someone in this comic to say it to her face for months!!! Go suck an egg Joyce, maybe go persecute some witches while you’re at it.
From a Sartrean point of view you can have an on and off again relationship with an existential feminist. Too much Nier Automata. Nietzche would say to Joyce to get the fuck out of his sight.
Also, Dorothy is right, Joyce is being as bad as Raidah here. Joyce’s religious bigotry has been substituted with self righteous romanticism.
She stopped her homophobia once she realized her best friend is a lesbian and her fake romance with Ethan was harming both of them. To learn that she is doing wrong she has to heard it from someone that matters to her, even more than Dorothy: Jacob hasn’t seen Joyce’s true colors enough to give her “the reason you suck” speech.
Dorothy doesn’t have a leg to stand on in this argument considering she had to be -dragged away from her ex because she wanted to bang him after she broke up with him-.
Joyce is being irresponsible.
Dorothy is being a bad friend in how she’s handling this.
Unless Joyce is making the *same* irresponsible decision as Dorothy, I don’t think her own screw-ups prohibit her from pointing out others’.
Should she have muddied her break-up with Walky? No, but that’s unrelated. Should she sit Joyce down and have an involved discussion about this? Yes. Do you know that she won’t just because her immediate response to Joyce’s unapologetic pursuit of this horrible goal is negative? No.
She’s literally walking away. Right now. In the final panel. For no other reason than “You disappoint me”.
She’s acting like Joyce’s parents. Joyce doesn’t live up to her expectations, she doesn’t want to deal with it anymore.
I’d be fine if she wanted to avoid drama, but she’s choosing to call Joyce out and then just walk away without actually dealing with it. That’s not mature. That’s getting in the final word and then noping out.
“Any more” is a pretty strong term. She’s just not up to doing more than point out how awful Joyce is being at this moment, when it was sprung on her.
Is it really fair to expect more? How dare an exhausted woman, still trying to process a break up, not be ready to perform still more emotional labor for someone else on the spot? That’s being immature and a bad friend?
Joyce is being a good friend by calling her out and how can you compare wanting to sleep with your just broken up with boyfriend to wanting to break up a relationship?
Calling someone out is not being a good friend. Calling someone out and then walking away is not being a good friend.
It’s saying, “You suck” to someone who she KNOWS doesn’t really understand or have the life experience to know better and then not offering support.
That’s not being a good friend. In the least. That’s being selfish, getting in the last word, and then being like, “I don’t want to deal with your problem.”
If you don’t want to tangle yourself in drama, fine. But don’t take parting shots to someone you supposedly care about in doing so.
Pointing out a problem doesn’t obligate one to provide a bunch of emotional labour to the person causing it.
Besides, she probably has a class to get to.
I don’t know about you, but if I have a friend, and they’re doing something self-destructive and don’t realize it, it’s really dickish to go “Ya, you’re being stupid and I am disappointed in you” and then just walk away.
It’s the equivalent of making an argument on facebook and then blocking the person so you can’t see how they respond. You’re doing it for your own good, not their’s.
Letting your friends do things you think are wrong and/or going to blow up in their faces is being a shitty friend.
If I was doing something bad and all my friend had the time/energy for was telling me that “what you’re doing fucking sucks. I thought you were better than this”, I’d rather they say that than nothing at all.
So if you were a homeschooled kid who had serious issues with one of their parents and religion being overly judgy (and you just realized and are coming to terms with that), someone saying, “You don’t meet my expectations, how dare you, I thought you were better than this?” when her entire religion and family structure up to that point, which is being deconstructed currently, is all about that, would be useful?
Doubtful.
Those words work on someone who has the emotional maturity and experience to understand their weight. Joyce is not that person.
Joyce doesn’t need another person judging her without telling her why.
I wasn’t at Joyce’s age. I pulled a Joyce. It was my fault and I accept full responsibility. I’m just saying, Joyce may realize it deep down, but wishful thinking can beat out repressed truth.
And you’re right, on a scale of something to nothing, something hurtful and judgemental but true always beats out nothing.
But something sincere, uncomfortable, (maybe brutally honest) but true, beats out hurtful and judgmental but true.
I’m not upset about her saying Joyce is on a self destructive path. I’m upset about the intonations of “You disappoint me” especially when used in these connotations .
Okay but Dorothy is the same age as Joyce. She may be more mature and knowledgeable about things than Joyce because of the differences in how they were raised, but they’re both still kids. And it’s not Dorothy’s job to teach Joyce each and every single time Joyce messes up. That’s an extraordinary amount of emotional labor to put on someone, and it doesn’t matter if they’re friends or not. That’s not fair to Dorothy to put it on her to teach Joyce better. And it’s not Dorothy’s fault if Joyce messes up and doesn’t learn. That’s on Joyce.
What branch of Christianity says it’s okay to break up other people’s relationships though? Sheltered or not, Joyce knows she’s doing something that’s wrong.
Joyce’s.
They’re not married, so it’s not yet settled that Jacob and Raidah are what God means to be. Since they might not be, there’s nothing wrong with Joyce stepping in. If God intend Jacob and Joyce to marry, then she’s following God’s will and Jacob will see the truth and leave Raidah.
If not then Joyce will fail to break them up and no harm will be done.
Granted that’s a mix of theology and a lot of influence from bad rom-coms, but it’s what Joyce has got to work with.
I mean I’m not saying she’s EVIL she’s just in the wrong, here. And even with those influences, I think there’s evidence for her to see that she knows this is messed up and is rationalizing.
American Christians are weird then. I was raised Catholic and nowhere where this considered okay. Heck, the mere idea of “acting on Gods will” feels gross and I don’t even identify as Christian anymore. But like, who am I to know Gods will?
I wouldn’t say “American Christians” – plenty of Catholics in the US, for example, but it’s been clearly established that Joyce’s particular flavor of fundamentalism is seriously weird.
Which, if you missed it, is based on the version Willis grew up with.
How Dorothy handles her own relationship with her ex-boyfriend is irrelevant to the fact that she is condemning Joyce for seeking to disrupt someone else’s relationship.
Another difference between Dorothy and Joyce is that Dorothy admitted, to Walky, that she hadn’t been very fair to him. Joyce is still trying to rationalize why what she’s doing isn’t wrong.
No, it doesn’t. Joyce is trying to do something wrong that we can all see will end badly.
But my original point was that all of this makes Dorothy a pretty lousy friend at the moment. Which is allowable, she’s got stuff to do right now… except…. unless she is referring to herself in the “Lots of people are disappointing me these days”, she’s being a bit quick to judge in her state of “you disappoint me” and that’s what bothers me.
It doesn’t bother me that she is being critical. Just how she was being critical.
I do agree that her wording wasn’t great. And that other people thing was weird… The only other disappointment I can remember at the moment was Robin? Or maybe I’m mixing things up and the only person to be disappointed then was Leslie?
To be fair, Joyce had some bad influences, like Sarah, Billie, Becky, all encouraging this line of behavior, in addition to her own warped upbringing. And Raidah is undoubtedly bad for Jacob. Jacob’s a grown ass adult, and no amount of seduction by Joyce could move him if he didn’t want to be moved. Could it blow up in Joyce’s face, yeah, but the same could be said of any relationship. Still, a little bit of self-reflection never hurt nobody.
Hovertext aside, I believe Joyce is referring to the Christian Calvinist doctrine of predestination – which basically dictates that everything that has happened, will happen, or is happening now was decreed to be by God at the beginning of time, and thus that nothing which ever happens is not“according to His Plan”.
I literally read my way through the whole comments section to see if anyone was going to bring this up and I found you here at (currently) the very bottom. Glad someone finally did.
Anyway….
Yeah, if Joyce has to rely on Calvinism, one of the worst, most BS, self-serving philosophies ever created by humans to justify herself… that’s bad. Using Calvinism to justify one’s actions is the philosophical equivalent of using Nazis to win an argument on the internet. Even if it works, you’ve lowered yourself so much that the victory is Pyrrhic at best.
I remember explaining predetermination to my friend in English class once (we were at a Catholic school and I learned about some Protestant sects like Calvinism in history). She stared at me and said ‘And this has followers, you say?’
Actually, the part I personally find worse is the method by which one can, according to Calvinism, tell who has been predetermined to go to heaven.
It went something like this: If a person is wealthy, then clearly God likes them, and thus they are the ones predetermined for heaven?
The poor? Well, obviously Gods hates them, so they’re going to hell.
I honestly cannot think of a less Christian version of Christianity.
Including the part right before the flood where God regretted creating humanity. That regret was part of God’s plan all along, even when he was making humanity.
And also the part where the Hebrews worshipped the golden calf while Moses was being given the commandments, and all knowing God was so angry when he found out (despite the fact that it was all in his plan and that he should know everything) that he was going to commit a great evil upon them and wipe out the people he’d just saved from bondage, if it weren’t for the fact that Moses talked him down (which was also part of his plan).
Wow a lot of arguments on this strip. At the end of the day, regardless of how certain characters are dealing with situations, Joyce should not be trying to get with someone who is already in a relationship. Everything is irrelevant. If it’s a bad, toxic relationship? Sure, try and get him to see that to help HIM out, but not with the purpose of breaking up so you can be with him instead. Just be a good friend.
I glad Joyce was called out on, I’m hoping if Dorothy is against ot, it’ll make her have a serious rethink
Is it true that American Christians have this mentality of “If God loves you he gives you lots of money and power and if he doesn’t love you he makes you poor and weak”?
Not all American Christians. Just some of the loudest, most toxic branches of it that collectively form a large chunk of evangelical Christianity. It’s called the “Prosperity Gospel” and it’s basically what every televangelist uses to scam people out of millions upon millions of dollars (Though it’s hardly confined to just televangelists). “Give “the church” money and God will (eventually) bless you with great wealth like they did the pastor and his family! The more you give the more “blessed” you will surely be! And if you haven’t been blessed yet then we guess you just haven’t given enough!”
* “Eventually” may not occur in the earthly realm.
It’s one of the biggest ongoing scams in the US, and people continue to fall for it because they WANT to fall for it. Every time you hear about a Church Leader driving around a Bentley and flying on a Private Jet from their private airfield next to their $30M dollar Mansion, they’re almost certainly a prosperity gospel preacher.
It wouldn’t be too surprising if Joyce’s church is a “Prosperity Gospel” church.
Ah this feels very homely. We have this monk here in Poland who owns his own radio and TV station and keeps asking for donations from elderly people getting richer and richer. Worst of all a right-wing party won the elections recently and now they are giving him taxpayer money too for his support.
The most obvious chunk is called the prosperity gospel, which is all about, get this, giving “seed” money to the preacher in the belief that something good will happen to you as a result of your faith. (Just look at how large said preacher is living in HIS faith if you want proof.) Since god won’t let you down this is a very sound financial policy, so you should max out credit cards and give that money to the swarmy guy waving a bible as a sales pitch god, because you’re going to get so much wealth back it’s awesome.
That said, this attitude of “your situation shows if god likes or hates you” is hardly unique to the prosperity gospel crowd. A lot of Christianity has a strong undercurrent of “if something bad’s happened to you it’s because you’ve angered god and you’re being punished, so reexamine your life and find a way to blame yourself.” Similarly, good things are god rewarding you. You’ll hear this from a lot of evangelicals, not just the prosperity gospel, and I suspect that a majority of American Christians hold this attitude to some degree or another.
When roughly half our political leadership — the half that’s currently in power — wants to pitch themselves as true-blue Jesus-followers while also embracing laissez-faire, unregulated, no-safety-net capitalism, its politically useful to have a doctrine that says that all the people who become poor or sick are bad people who don’t need a handout or a hand up and can just get out of poverty if they would only love god instead of hating him, so why should the taxpayer be the one to shoulder the cost?
I really wonder how would those people react to learning that there are countries which don’t much care for religion and yet their people live very good lives…
There’s a difference between supporting her and enabling her. This is not the time for the latter, I’d expect my friends if I try some BS like this to call me out and tell me to back away. It’s up to Jacob to decide, not be manipulated by others.
it’s not always easy to pull that off. I don’t think Dorothy’s cutting herself off from Joyce or anything, it feels more like she’s calling Joyce out and telling her she’s out of line.
It’s that whole negotiation thing, walking away is one of the strongest moves available, because the other side wants to draw you back in.
Is Dorothy doing this imperfectly? Probably. She’s, what, 18? Teenagers aren’t known for flawless diplomacy :).
Well it was nice to see sinning Joyce while it lasted. Now she’s going to regress badly, probably tell Jacob what happened and start crying.
The one thing I really like about Jacob is he’s probably going to sit her down and talk through things with her. No one has ever given his girl realistic boundaries. I believe Jacob has realized just how damaged she is and going to step up here to be a friend she needs.
Dorothy really needed to approach this differently.
She’s not calling her a Bongo or a harlot or a painted jezebel or anything like that. She’s saying that Joyce should be better than this.
And Jacob? Look, until Joyce comes clean with him about her motives, anything that happens between Joyce and Jacob is tainted by her attempt to sabotage his relationship with Raidah for her benefit.
Joyce had three options here: Let Jacob be with Raidah until that relationship resolved however it may, let Jacob know she’d reeaaaaaaally like to bone him but respects his relationship with Raidah, or attempt to sabotage his relationship with Raidah and get him to want to bone her, not Raidah.
She chose the latter.
Joyce needs to learn from this, she needs to grow from this… but it can’t come from Jacob, he’s just too close to all this shit. Of all the chars in the comic, it’s Dorothy, Sarah or maaaaaaybe Sal that could get it through to her.
Sometimes, I remember that, even though Joyce has had a literal gun pointed at her by a fellow attendee of her own church, she’s still been brainwashed AF since birth.
Since when has Joyce been studying advanced philosophy like this.
That said… Yeah, saw this coming. I suspect that this is going to be a crossroads for Joyce and Dorothy’s friendship and I can’t see anything going unchanged.
Christianity, in general, has a lot of the “God’s plan for you” and that can include your relationships and who you marry. This is especially true of more conservative and more Creationist strains.
Plus, Joyce is in an Evangelical church, which has been embracing of Calvinism in recent decades at least.
Dorothy, you are the last person (in this comic strip anyway) who should be judgemental about relationships given you gloriously craptacular record. Maybe if you weren’t such a self centered jerk, you could have nipped this in the buf earlier.
(Yo be fair, as much as I think Raidah sucks, Joyce is being a stinker, but seriously Dorothy is far from anyone to judge)
It’s not her job to keep Joyce out of trouble and she only realized what’s up between her and Jacob recently. Also Dorothy Does have moral high-ground over Joyce here. While her relationships with Danny and Walky were a bit of a mess she never Stole anybody’s boyfriend
Why is this on Dorothy, though? Joyce has already been told this is wrong by Joe, multiple times. Joyce has the knowledge that what she’s doing is wrong, but she’s choosing to ignore it.
This isn’t Dorothy’s fault, and it’s not on Dorothy to make sure Joyce learns her lesson every time she fucks up.
1) It isn’t Dorothy’s job to keep an eye on Joyce this is true, but a conversation now and then probably given her an idea what was going on and Dorothy could have said this was a bad idea before it got out of hand,
2) Considering Dorothy’s dating history and her indecisiveness, I gotta disagree she has any high ground on this, because what Joyce is doing is pretty much what she has done, potentially ruining lives.
3)Yeah… like anyone would really listen to Joe on any moral stance.
Now to be fair, I kinda think all three of these girls suck, though for different reasons, so my opinions might be a bit biased. Don’t take anything I say too seriously.
2) No, it’s nottttttttttttttttttttttttt. Whatever issues you may point out in Dorothy’s past relationships (there are certainly plenty), she never attempted to break a couple up to get into them.
I respectfully disagree. ^_^ While the methods are different, the results are similar, lives ruined because of irresponsibility. Good news though, it is only temporary. (something they also share)
Neither Danny nor Walky’s lives were ruined because Dorothy broke up with them, regardless of how Walky seems to be spiraling right now. While, yes, he is in emotional turmoil because of his relationship with Dorothy, there are other factors, such as him failing his classes. But, his life isn’t ruined. It’s been maybe a few weeks.
Danny recovered pretty quickly from the break up and Walky has MUCH bigger problems than just losing Dotty, his school is a much bigger stress source for him.
1) Again, other people have full knowledge of the situation and by this logic, it should be on them to tell Joyce this is wrong, not Dorothy who did not know until this very moment because she was busy and did not have time to hang out. Sarah, Joe, Becky, and Billie all know what Joyce is doing, and the only one who has said anything about it is Joe. Instead of blaming Dorothy for not nipping this in the bud, blame the three who encouraged it from the beginning.
The fact that you are still focusing on Dorothy being the reason this is still going on and not the fact that three of Joyce’s other friends have pushed and encouraged her to do this is very telling, and it’s gross.
2) Yeah, still gonna say Dorothy has never ruined lives by breaking up with someone. And there’s still a difference between breaking up with someone in a shitty way and trying to break up a relationship because you want in. Add to the fact that Dorothy wasn’t intending to hurt anyone but still stumbled along the way, meanwhile Joyce doesn’t care because it’s “all okay if it’s for true love!”… it’s completely different situations.
3) Joe’s opinion has mattered to Joyce to the past. It still matters. The only reason she switched from trying to hype Sarah up to going after Jacob herself is because Joe inadvertently convinced her that she had a chance. If Joe’s opinion didn’t matter to Joyce, she wouldn’t have been texting him the entire time she was at her parents’ house with Becky. Now, yes, Joe’s track record shows that normally people wouldn’t listen to him, but he managed to get under both Sarah and Joyce’s skin at different points. They know he’s right, they just don’t care.
I might be wrong but Joyce never told Dorothy Anything about her plans regarding Jacob and Dorothy was very busy recently, not to mention all the stress she’s been under. Dorothy has her own life to take care of, she is Joyce’s friend, not a caretaker or overseer. She is not responsible for knowing everything about Joyce’s life and policing her behaviour. As the final pam said your complains should be aimed at the people who knew but did nothing, or worse, enabled and encouraged Joyce.
Guys, don’t take anything I say really seriously, while I might dislike these three turds and I remain unconvinced, you guys aren’t wrong and have every right to feel the way you do.
…fucking huzzah, a character in-story is calling Joyce out on her bullshit.
No, Joyce wasn’t innocently flirting. She knew what she was doing. You can argue all you want about how Joyce has no need to respect Raidah, but the biggest problem here is that JOYCE ISN’T RESPECTING JACOB.
Jacob has presented himself in a happy relationship, he clearly isn’t looking for other romantic options and isn’t making himself available on that front, and Joyce is disregarding that by explicitly, BY THE TEXT OF THE FUCKING COMIC, trying to “steal a boyfriend”.
Joyce is the “Nice Guy”, with Eiffel Tower sized air-quotes around that word. She’s in the wrong. Stop defending her fucking actions here.
……..I do believe Joyce is a good person, BTW. Good people fuck up, good people do awful things, good people don’t get things are fucked up sometimes. What Dorothy’s doing here is good, she’s not calling Joyce evil or anything, she’s just saying…
…well, that Joyce should be better. Because she should, because we’ve seen her be a better person, and it’s a goddamn shame that she’s doing this because she’s capable of so much better.
I agree that Joyce is not respecting Jacob here, and that it’s shitty towards him. (And I think she’d better stop this right now, if she wants to stay friends with him.)
However, people were already wailing about how terrible Sarah and Joyce were when Joyce had done nothing but hang out with Jacob as friends, not even entertaining the thought of more. And Sarah never had the power of breaking up anybody; it’s Jacob’s decision.
Before this last meeting or so, I really don’t think Joyce was doing anything wrong.
The argument I see that it’s okay for Joyce to try getting between Jacob’s relationship seems to hinge on the idea that Jacob has the power to say no.
But people can and do have the power to manipulate other people. It is entirely a possible scenario that this course of action leads to manipulating Jacob into doing something he doesn’t want, will regret, and will affect him negatively.
That, and people who feel that it’s okay to ignore an implicit “no” often also find ways to mentally skirt around an explicit “no”.
Dorothy’s generally a pretty ethical character. She also has very little of the context of what’s going on here, particularly how this began. Lastly, she holds Joyce to a pretty high standard. Maybe not the comically high standard that Joyce holds Dorothy to, but she has seen Joyce demonstrate a lot of moral integrity and courage, so this is a side of Joyce she hasn’t been privy to.
I still don’t really have a problem with what Joyce has done so far. I have a big problem with her justification of it.
What she’s done so far is being a bit flirty, but she is far from going heavy on him. She’s not even suggestive to him or leads the conversations to romance. She hasn’t said an ill word about Raidah nor has she tried to butt into their relationship to find something she can use to put doubt in Jacob’s mind that he should leave her. So yeah, she’s sniffing around him but she is far from attempting to break them up.
I had a friend of mine that heavily implied to my fiance that she would be up for the sex acts I didn’t want to do that my fiance liked, I think she invited him to go lingerie shopping “because she didn’t have any female friends that had the time” and she wrote in her secret blog (that someone sent me the link to) about how she wished he’d dump me already.
I mean, Joyce is barely even trying so far. She’s hoping that Jacob will fall in love with her, in an extremely passive approach. She could easily plant a seed in his mind that two ambitious people might not make the best relationship if he wants a family, where she, who wants to be a housewife, could commit to him reaching even further. Or lead the conversations to find new arguments.
I do have a problem with Joyce justifying herself with that it’s ok if it’s true love. When can she decide if it’s true love? How far is it ok to go for true love? How many times can she use that as an argument, if she decides after Jacob that she would find someone better? I mean she was pretty sure on both Joe and Ethan…
It’s a messed up argument. Just frickin own that you would like him to break up with Raidah to be with you and that that’s complicated and a selfish desire. (And of course, stop. She can still be the person she is with Jacob because they have great chemistry but she should stop aiming at breaking them up for her own benefit)
Reading through the comments section, I wanna point out that Dorothy has been at ultimate stress levels for the past few days, perhaps even week, in-universe. Putting her relationship with Walky aside, she’s also burnt out, saw a man get sliced to hell, struggling with her studies… She is in no place to be holding Joyce’s hand like some people are expecting. And keep in mind that she has tried to broach subjects with Joyce before (such as http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/vacuum/ ) only to be shut down kinda harshly? Dorothy is Joyce’s friend, not her teacher. She’s within her rights to point out how questionable Joyce’s actions are.
Keep in mind as well, that Dorothy was invited to this lunch which we saw, wasn’t exactly the friendly happy time it was supposed to be. Because Raidah was invited, and Joyce has this scheme, lunch seemed to become the two trading potshots as Dorothy freaked out on the sidelines. She doesn’t have unreasonable expectations for Joyce. If anything, she’s making up for keeping mum about Ethan (which she didn’t know about til it resolved itself). Joyce’s actions are undeniably gross. And she seemed to expect praise from Dorothy for it. Also, friends disagree. Friends piss each other off and disappoint each other. Does this suck right now? Yeah. Does this mean the friendship is over? No, but Dorothy obviously needs space now and wanted to be the one person to point out that trying to break Jacob and Raidah up is wrong. This is a messy, ugly situation. And I think we commenters need to start taking deep breathes. This is getting more heated than I thought it’d be.
Firstly: I didn’t give Joyce enough credit yesterday. I didn’t think she could flirt that well intentionally. I was wrong.
Popular opinion time: Joyce’s justification for her actions is shitty here. She should be honest that she’s sexually attracted to Jacob, and should quit using True Love as an excuse to behave in ways inconsistent with her own morality.
Unpopular opinion time: I think Joyce (and most people) would disagree here, but IMO, Joyce has no duty to preserve Raidah and Jacob’s relationship. I’d rather she be more frank and straightforward about her intentions, but that said she’s being about as frank and straightforward as she can be without coming out and saying, “Jacob, I like you and would like to go out.” She’s not exactly being subtle here. Joyce does not have a duty to sacrifice her wants in favor of Jacob and Raidah’s relationship. There is nothing wrong in my book with wanting a relationship with someone who is already in a relationship, or trying to pursue that person up until they reject you. Continuing to pursue after your advances have been rejected is obviously wrong, but throwing up an “I’m interested” flag to see if someone will accept the quest line isn’t wrong. I think it’s kind of foolish if you’re ostensibly into monogamy like Joyce is (someone who’s looking for greener grass while in an existing relationship, and who has a pattern of that behavior – Jacob’s “crazy jealous exes” were neither crazy nor jealous, they were upset with him flirting and encouraging other women, I am guessing – is not going to change that pattern of behavior just because they’re in a relationship with you). But I don’t think it’s morally wrong.
The people who have a duty to Jacob and Raidah’s relationship are Jacob and Raidah. Nobody else. Certainly the women around Jacob shouldn’t be expected to insulate him from all temptation. He’s a grown-ass adult – if he wants monogamy, it’s on him to actually be monogamous.
Of all the people in this situation, Jacob is the one in the wrong, because Jacob is the one not fulfilling his social contract with Raidah. He encourages and participates in Joyce’s flirtation. And no, he’s not oblivious to it. This is not the face of obliviousness:
What Jacob is oblivious to is the fact that Raidah has caught on to the situation, not the fact that Joyce is flirting.
Why does everyone seem content to let him off the hook here? To blame Joyce pre-emptively for any relationship trouble this causes Jacob?
Sexism, that’s why – people are blaming Joyce for the eventual ruination of Jacob’s relationship, and are completely missing the fact that Jacob, not Joyce, is the one with the duty to act in defense of his emotional and social commitments. Jacob could be, and should be, shutting this shit down if he wants a monogamous relationship. Instead, he’s stringing Joyce along.
If the relationship fails, it’s gonna be Jacob’s fault, not Joyce’s.
And for the record, I’m a serial monogamist. And I’ve been the Raidah in such a situation, where the relationship did fail. And yeah, it sucked. And I’ve been the Raidah in a situation where it didn’t fail. And I’ve never been the Joyce, so it’s not like I’m defending my own past behavior here. It’s just that frankly, if the relationship can’t survive someone else flirting with my SO, it’s not a healthy relationship in the first place, for one, and for two, if my SO cheats on me with a third party, that’s on my SO. An outsider to the relationship has no responsibility to the relationship, whereas my SO would.
And to be extra clear: I don’t think Jacob’s a bad person. In fact, I think he’d be good for Joyce. But the fact is he’s made a commitment to Raidah by agreeing to be her monogamous boyfriend, and he claims to want a serious, monogamous relationship. If he fails to hold up his end of that commitment, as it seems likely he’s going to, that will be on him.
Drawing an analogy to a workplace: A friend of mine can tempt me to skip work and go hang out with them all they want, but if I make the decision to go along with it and get fired, that’s on me.
Dude I would be equally as disgusted if Joyce were a dude pulling this stunt. It’s shitty. It’s manipulative and deceitful and disrespectful of Jacob’s pretty clearly stated desires. Jacob can’t string Joyce along because she’s a fucking weasel who hasn’t told him she’s interested. There is no reason to assume Jacob sees his interactions with Joyce as anything but playful banter between two friends because he has clearly stated he’s in a monogamous relationship that he is happy with.
He’s been checking her out (see the linked strip above), making excuses to show her his body (and get her to show him her body), and making veiled sexual jokes at her. That’s flirting.
Jacob has responsibility to his relationship, and he’s not upholding it.
And yeah, Joyce isn’t being completely straightforward, but neither is she being subtle. Literally everyone who has seen them interact has picked up on what Joyce is doing (in Dorothy’s case, within a few minutes), but you think it’s going over Jacob’s head? That beggars belief. He’d have to be even less socially savvy than Dina, and there’s no evidence of that.
Literally nothing Jacob has done or said would make a reasonable person assume that his expressed desires are suddenly invalid. At best you have flimsy implications.
Wait a minute, when has Jacob ever showed off his body? Only time I can think about is when Joyce walked in on him and Joe at the gym. And the only thing he did there that could be “showing her his body” was to continue exercising…
And when has he made her show off hers? I really wanna see the link to the strips for this claim
“There is nothing wrong in my book with wanting a relationship with someone who is already in a relationship, or trying to pursue that person up until they reject you. ”
But isn’t being in a closed monogamous relationship basically giving an implicit advance rejection to anyone that might want to pursue you when you’re in the relationship? So shouldn’t Joyce, at the very least, respect that and leave Jacob alone?
Don’t you usually wait at least three months before treating anyone’s relationship as “maybe permanent”? Like when a relationship is fresh, i.e. after the first few dates, at lot of ships run to ground because infatuation wears off, sex doesn’t work out, you find you are incompatible in certain aspects, … If you treat all that stuff as “love of someone’s life” instead of the try and error they are, you increase the heartbreak for no good reason at all.
Of course if you expect it run aground early on, then just sit back and wait to see it die. No great loss. No need to get into a big challenge rivalry with the current partner.
Either way, whether it is the “love of their life” or not, just don’t try to mess with it.
Do your friends appreciate your treating their budding relationships as full-blown relationships? As in, you as their friend who takes an interest in their lives? I actually hate it if people start taking someone in my life for granted before I do.
They appreciate me not attempting to seduce their new girlfriends. I don’t start planning their weddings or naming their inevitable children though.
Not sure what you think I do.
It seems to me a lot of people in the comments are acting as if they were friends who are already planning the weeding for Jacob and Raidah.
There is no one saying hey, look, there is someone else interested in Jacob, I wonder what he will do with this?
It’s all about high morals, not about finding out what you want, what’s real.
I don’t see much difference to Joyce’s “true love” idea. The word used is just “monogamous relationship” but that’s invested with all the same trappings.
That’s you reading into it. Not what people are saying. Or at least not what I’m saying.
The way for Jacob to find out whether he actually wants Raidah in the long term is to be with Raidah and see how it works out, not to have her face off with a series of challengers.
I mean, I said in the post before you asked that: “sit back and wait to see it die”? Does that really sound like I’m calling it “true love”? If it works, it works, so you shouldn’t have messed with it. If it doesn’t, you’ll have your chance when it ends.
I still think the pizza thought bubble makes it pretty clear that Jacob is not only unaware of Raidah catching, but that there’s anything to catch on to. This piles on top of plenty of other evidence, including him letting Raidah know so she could join them in the first place.
Which doesn’t mean he isn’t reacting to Joyce’s flirting and flirting back. He’s just not doing so consciously. He’s the one doing the unintentional flirting you though Joyce was doing.
I would be right there with you if Jacob hadn’t checked Joyce out when she went to the bathroom. I’ll grant it’s a possibility, but I don’t think it’s super likely.
OTOH, even if he is flirting unconsciously, him being a flirt and flirting with any pretty girl who flirts at him, probably has a hell of a lot to do with his previous “crazy jealous” exes being “crazy jealous.”
Of course, Joyce isn’t really aware that her attraction is part physical. It’s warping her judgment. But I’m kinda siding with Joyce here. While I don’t believe in some god that can intend for two specific people to be together, it’s important to be happy. It matters if you enjoy the company of your significant other. And Jacob/Raidah aren’t married.
Arthur C Clarke used to say “Any teacher who can be replaced by a computer should be.” By analogy if Joyce can win Jacob’s affections with a little light flirting, Raidah is taking the relationship for granted. Jacob is a kind person and Raidah, well maybe isn’t so kind.
So, you know, maybe we could use the heat from this thread as renewable energy, heat a grade school or something?
I’m just worried that Dorothy might be about to cut Joyce off as a friend, and isolate herself further.
Regardless of who is in the right or wrong about all this, that would hurt to watch!
Possibly because before breaking up with him, she didn’t and instead strung him along as she moved to college hoping he’d guess she wanted to break up with him. It stems from one of Dorothy’s two problems: that she thinks avoiding confrontations is always for the best. We’ll see how this comes along, if her OTHER problem doesn’t do her in narratively first.
I’m firmly on Dorothy’s side in regard to this situation (though as someone with a similar upbringing to Joyce, I totally understand why she’s like this), but you gotta admit, that Joyce smile in the second panel is the cutest thing ever drawn.
Joyce is like that kid who’s so proud of the new karate move he just learned that he didn’t think about how his little brother would feel about getting kicked in the chest.
This comment should have gone on yesterdays’s strip but:
Raidah’s thing with appearances kind of puts a new perspective on the situation with Dana.
I don’t have anything to say about Joyce other than the obvious: She should just tell him she likes him. This pissing match has a good chance of escalating if it goes on and even if it doesn’t, Jacob is unlikely to appreciate that Joyce engaged in a bunch of passive aggressive back and forth with his girlfriend instead of just talking to him.
You ended up a relationship of years and hooked up with the first male that wasn’t him as soon as you were available, and now you’re taking the moral high ground??????
I’m sorry sister but people with glass houses shouldn’t be throwing stones…
And you can’t “steal” another persons partner, no matter what you do, if they split it haves nothing to do with Joyce, and everything to do with what Jacob wants, isn’t Jacob a grown man that can make his own decisions???? all is fair in love and war.
There is no glass house here. Dorothy HAS them, but they’re not relevant to here. She ended a relationship and then started another relationship with someone who was single and was demonstrably interested. Relationships aren’t entitled to mourning periods.
what if the mourning period hasn’t even started but he’s finding someone else attractive?
Not relevant to what I was aiming, she did the exact same thing, but thinks Joyce is morally wrong because Jacob is still in a relationship whereas she ended hers, I see no difference on what Dorothy did from what Joyce wants, “mourning period” doesn’t apply to either
So, reading through this thread, yours seems to be a popular opinions: that there is nothing at all wrong with hitting on someone else’s partner.
And definitely not compared to choosing to end a relationship that isn’t working for you, or starting one with someone available, or not indulging a friend in behavior you disapprove of, all of which seem benign to me.
It’s…really outside my experience. Like, most people I know consider it at the least a major faux pas to try and split up a friend’s relationship. Are things really so different elsewhere?
I do think that the way a lot of people in this forum have looked at this in the past (before Joyce was consciously trying to do anything, she was just getting along well with Jacob) denied Jacob all agency in a way that seems really insulting to him.
Even now, Joyce cannot break him and Raidah up, at least not as long as she doesn’t start lying (e.g. telling lies about Raidah to Jacob or something like that). It is entirely in Raidah’s and Jacob’s hand to decide how to continue their relationship. If Jacob does not like any of Joyce’s behaviour, he’s free to tell her, or to stop seeing her at any point. And Raidah is free to tell Jacob that she doesn’t like Joyce’s behaviour — or Jacob’s, if she thinks Jacob himself is harming their relationship.
Now, I’m not saying that Joyce actively trying to break them up is good beaviour (and as I argued above, trying is all she can do) — but before the last few strips, she was not doing that.
I don’t fault Joyce for wanting to get together with Jacob, though.
If she was honest and had the best for Jacob in mind (instead of just the best for herself), either she’d continue just being good friends with Jacob without angling for more until he might become available, or she’d honestly tell him right now that she has a crush on him and would like to try a relationship. With that on the table, Jacob would be able to have an honest choice and give his opinion (which would presumably be negative at this point). I would see nothing morally wrong with that at all.
To add to this: I do hope Joyce stops being this shitty towards Jacob (presumably unconsciously — it’s no excuse, but I don’t think how shitty this is towards him) before she ruins their friendship.
Jacob is one of my favourite characters and I want him to stay a major part of the story.
she hasn’t being “shitty” towards Jacob, she’s never stopped being herself this whole time, she was shitty towards Radiah, but that’s entirely because of her friendship with Sara, a very distinct reason and separated (but that also aligns) regarding Jacob
There’s a difference between something socially discouraged and something morally wrong. Definitely I recognize that trying to flirt with someone in a relationship is socially discouraged. I don’t think it’s morally wrong, because to me, the person who has a duty to the relationship is the person in the relationship. Flirting is non-verbal communication – and the person in the relationship doesn’t have to reciprocate. The entire situation screeches to a halt the second Jacob stiffens and asks Joyce what the heck she’s doing in a disapproving tone, or otherwise responds in a way that discourages her advances.
My question to you: How and why is it Joyce’s responsibility to preserve Jacob’s relationship and not Jacob’s?
” if the other person doesn’t like that he can chose to stop it at any given time”
Except it’s not that simple. There’s a whole Captain Awkward post right now (with genders reversed) about how difficult this is and how weird people get when you try to shut down their plausibly-deniable flirting.
I doubt Joyce would get anywhere near the uglier ends of that shit, but she’s still doing the plausible deniability thing. Plus Jacob is too oblivious to even realize it’s happening.
as I recall Calvinism became popular during the early point of the industrial revolution because it was an excuse to not bother with charity or working to improve working conditions in factories.
This is a lot of fuss when Jacob’s only expressed interest in Joyce is wanting to see her picture Bible. I’m interested in that part of her life too, but then I read Answers in Genesis for fun. It’s always good for a hearty laugh.
So Dorothy broke up with Walky then had Joyce harangue her in the toilet, Joyce demanded her time and then for lunch put Dorothy in the middle of some major drama
I got to say that considering the stress Dorothy is currently under she handled this situation a lot than better then I would have
She probably won’t be president but she will definitely be successful
I think it’s really weird that a bunch of people are defending Joyce in this, but when Mike throws casual makeouts at Ethan to fuck with the Ethan/Danny possibilities, everyone realizes that he’s being a bad person.
Both Joyce and Mike are prioritizing their own feelings/desires over the feelings of a third person.
Plenty of people defend Mike on the grounds of “I’m sure he’s really falling for Ethan” or “He’s doing it make them get together” or some such nonsense.
OTOH, I would say he’s actually worse, since he’s doing it deliberately to hurt them.
You are comparing two things that are not comparable:
Mike plays with Ethan to manipulate Danny. Ethan doesn’t have a chance to know what Mike is aiming at.
Joyce has fallen for Jacob. If J doesn’t want her to make passes at him, it’s his job to indicate he’s not interested. He hasn’t done that. And if he’s oblivious to her passes, it’s time he learns to notice, else there will always be inexplicably jealous lovers.
If you don’t prioritize your own feelings and desires, no one will. And where does that get you?
Always prioritizing other people’s feelings over your own, ends up with you as a footmat. There will always be people having hurt feelings when you wasn’t something they do not want. The more manipulate ones will let you know in exhausting detail about their feelings to get what they want.
Everyone is entitled to their feelings. You are and they are. But when you make decisions, base them on who you want to be, what you think is right for you in this situation. Not ony anyone’s supposed feelings. Not even your own.
“. If J doesn’t want her to make passes at him, it’s his job to indicate he’s not interested.”
You mean apart from being in a committed, monogamous relationship? Surely thats indication enoughh
” And if he’s oblivious to her passes, it’s time he learns to notice, else there will always be inexplicably jealous lovers.”
Yeah he should but how? Its beginning to look like previous girlfriends may have tried to tell him but he may have brushed it off as jealousy on the girlfriends part
At this point, I’d say the safest way would be a third party cluing him in. Maybe Joe.
I suspect he’ll actually find out when it all blows up in his face, with him dumping Raidah because of something nasty she does to Joyce and then Joyce crowing about winning him.
I’m pretty sure it’s going to end up something like that. It’s been made pretty clear that Raidah’s a piece of work and she’s just going to get nastier until Jacob’s safe from Joyce. She’s not going to be allowed to win and keep him.
OTOH, it’s also been made pretty clear that Joyce shouldn’t be going after him. She needs to learn a lesson about boundaries and such, so she’s not going to win and get him. (She might get to date him for a bit, after Raidah shows her true colors and before he finds out Joyce actually was after him all along.)
Team JacobxPizza!
Personal opinions, I can’t remember if I wrote this before:
1) Joyce’s behavior, intentionally flirting with a person in a committed relationship, is bad behavior. I would not enjoy seeing her do it as a real person.
2) As a reader, I’ve enjoyed watching it happen. It can be cute and I trust that Willis will punish them for whatever ends up working, if anything, since Willis is mean enough to his characters when they’re being /nice/.
And now as a reader, I’m happily sinking back to my Joe/Joyce ship (though maybe It’s Walky! is also giving me those feels… But nah, DoA is my first love, Willis-wise)
This helped me recontextualize what she said to Jason at Gallasso’s. Not that I’d have been surprised by her saying ‘unless it’s true love!’ earlier on, but it helps explain why she’d feel the need to add it onto her talk with an ex TA
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“AND TECHNICALLY I CAN’T ‘STEAL’ A PERSON… that’s, uh, kidnapping”
Joyce stood with her phone pointed at Jacob for like five minutes. He thought she was trying to take a picture, but she was actually tossing Pokemon balls at him.
… oh god, 90s fangirl flashbacks to the Pocket Bishōnen website…
Or she could have been trying to steal his soul…by taking his picture.
So.. Pokemon Snap, basically?
Can’t “steal” a boyfriend that doesn’t want to be stolen.
It’s rude to make moves on them, but you ain’t stealing them; they’re first-class actors with their own wills and decision-making.
As a male equipped with the typical assortment of hormones, I question your hypothesis. 😉
Disappointing. Don’t demote yourself like that, as if you must denigrate your own agency, don’t drag down half the planet with you.
tigers are definitely the best
What about Tiggers?
they’re wonderful things
Tacos, butts knows what’s up with Tiggers
Well, Tigger does use his butt to bounce…
No, he most certainly does not. Tigger bounces on his tail, you character assassin. Who hired you to write this hit piece? Was it the Gopher?
I mean, if you pay attention, it’s more of a full-body exercise, and Tigger’s body does include his butt, so…
I prefer lions.
Bears, here
Oh my!
And they burn brightly as well.
Joyce, if you have to rationalize why it’s not “stealing a boyfriend”, maybe try not doing that?
Really, if you have to rationalize any action you could probably stand to reexamine it.
According to Ben Franklin, the advantage of being a reasonable creature is that you can always find a reason for doing what you wanted to do in the first place.
MGTOW, the comic!
Wait, how?
Unless its a different MGTOW you’re thinking about, I don’t see how Men Going Their Own Way relates to this
i guess it depicts a woman being shitty? which i guess is vaguely adjacent? idk
unless they’re just confusing mgtow with incels in general, equating joyce with one? which makes sense in terms of the messed up rationalizations in order to justify doing unethical things to get sex. but imo it misses the key themes of incels, which is specifically male entitlement to women, and rape.
*googles MGTOW*
*vomits*
………uuuuuuuuugh.
Darwin Award, here we come!
Um… Nope. Not even close. Sorry, I read We Hunted the Mammoth pretty regularly. If you erased every good part of Joyce’s personality, and then filled the void with more of the bits that are so objectionable, you still wouldn’t hit even a fraction of the vileness of the average self-identified MGTOW or incel.
Reading that on a regular basis, oof. Is it just one of those “it’s like watching a trainwreck” fascinations?
I don’t think it’s “MGTOW: The Comic” at all. We haven’t seen anything like the sense of entitlement they parade around, or the supposedly wicked ways of the “friendzoning” woman they seem to believe exists in large numbers.
Okay, that’s not completely true. Blaine was entitled as hell, Faz is kind of a proto-incel (creepy, but without the apparent bitterness involved), and Ryan is, well, guilty of attempted rape (and possibly attempted murder).
Joyce, right now, is nothing like any of that. This is actually more like a callback to Joyce’s earliest days in Roomies!, back when it was Danny, rather than Jacob (who as far as I know didn’t even *exist* yet) who was the target of Joyce’s obsession. And that Joyce was far, far worse than this one. That Joyce could be argued to be much closer to the “Nice Guy” archetype, as she pursued Danny despite a clear and (repeatedly) explicitly-stated lack of interest from Danny. This time around, Joyce is just flirting with a man who doesn’t even seem to *notice.*
Ahahahaah, rationalization is the best.
Thank you, Dorothy.
DISAPPOINMENT – DOROTHY IN COLLEGE EDITION
“I like redheads…with green eyes, they gotta have green eyes…and WHISKERS!”
“I know where this is going.”
A hockey stick to the kneecaps?
Wrong Calvin there, methinks 😛
although, that calvin was named after john calvin i believe
And Hobbes after Thomas Hobbes.
Yow
I Was Badly Misquoting THIS Strip
Good, Joyce is seeing that someone she actually admires is disappointed in her.
It probably won’t be the wake-up call she needs though.
Dorothy has a very high horse to stand on for someone who broke the hearts of two boyfriends for her homework. If Jacob wants to date someone else, Joyce can’t steal him. It’s not a marriage or even a serious relationship. It’s a couple of weeks old at most.
I mean, those are two completely separate issues. Also, you don’t have to be perfect to confront others on their flaws.
No, but you also can be a good friend and not just passive aggressively walk away because you don’t want to deal with it anymore after confronting someone.
It’s not passive-aggressively walking away, it’s active-aggressively. It’s an explicit statement of “dude, that shit’s not okay”.
There’s nothing passive going on here, Dorothy said her piece and she has no interest in hearing Joyce’s bullshit justifications.
In fairness, breaking up with someone because you think/know your paths will diverge is by no means the same as tempting someone else from a relationship.
YES.
Yes, but then hooking up with them again, breaking up with them again, and then having to be physically stopped from having sex with them again is pretty comparable.
I’m just saying that Joyce isn’t trying to cheat with Jacob behind Radiah’s back. She wants him to leave his girlfriend to date her. This isn’t an engagement. If Jacob has a problem, he can shut it down.
Dorothy is taking a very “This is a happy home you’re breaking up” attitude. Which is ridiculous because dating is about finding the person you want to be with or having fun. It’s not an absolute time.
Freaking thank you.
Kindly point to me the comic where Joyce informed Jacob that she wished to have a romantic/sexual relationship with him instead of the platonic relationship that he very clearly assumed they had.
If she was just being platonicly friendly and they happened to fall for each other? Fine.
If she let him know that she was thinking of him that way and things developed to support it? Fine.
But her knowing that Jacob views her as a platonic friend, but her actively flirting with him to pull him towards a romantic/sexual relationship? That’s violating and disrespecting his agency and treating him little more than a piece of meat to be won.
There seems a more than reasonable probability that this is a mischaracterization of Jacob’s feelings. They are flirting with each other, even if Jacob doesn’t quite realize it.
Also, Raidah totally realizes it.
True, but that not realizing it is important. That’s what lets her slip through his guard and engage his romantic feelings without being shut down.
If she did just walk up and tell him she was romantically interested and that she wanted him to break up with Raidah and date her instead, he’d very likely just reject her and then either cut her off completely or at least set limits on their interaction, and be on the internal lookout for temptation.
Since she’s able to flirt and get him to react without any of that, she’s much more likely to get him to fall for her.
No, Jacob is being a FRIEND, he is being NICE, and playful, that is nOT THE SAME AS FLIRTING.
My gods if Joyce was a boy, and Jacob was a girl, this whole scenario would be so messed up, “Oh She was nice to him, that means she was oBVIOUSLY flirting with him and wants to secretly be in a relationship!”
No, Jacob being a nice guy, and a good friend does NOT mean it’s flirting.
i get it, Radiah is a terrible person..to Joyce and her friends, to JACOB she is girlfriend matterial, he is happy with her, and he’s not wanting to end this relationship. Joyce knows that, and she’s doing what Joyce always does when Joyce wants something and someone else doesn’t……
She stomps all over their boundries, but it’s okay b/c naive homeschooled christian girlllllll
No, leave Jacob’s relationship alone, be his friend, and if Radiah drops her veil and shows her true face, and Jacob dumps her, be there for him, be a GOOD FRIEND, Not a predatory viper waiting for a moment to strike >C
Nah. Jacob’s flirting or damn close to it. I don’t think he’s aware of it, but he’s definitely showing interest. Pretty much everyone is picking up on it too.
Which doesn’t excuse Joyce of course.
“but your honor, he WANTED it!”
I honestly don’t see it as violating his agency any more than going up to him and stating your interest would be. Flirting is basically just “behaving in a certain way in order to indicate interest and see if the behaviour is reciprocated.” Flirting with someone doesn’t FORCE them to do anything.
Now, do I think it’s inappropriate to knowingly and intentionally flirt with someone who’s in a committed relationship? Yeah, sure. But it’s not because it dismisses anyone’s agency or treats them as a piece of meat to be won (that would be, say, fighting with a third party over someone you’re both interested in, as if ‘winning’ entitled you to the person of interest).
It’s rude to both parties in the relationship because it ignores the fact that they have chosen to be with each other, but that’s true if she walks up to him and states her case, too. The only difference with that and this is that if she were more direct in her approach, she’d lose plausible deniability, which would make it easier to call her out or tell her to stop.
She is in her own words intending to decieve him.
I don’t see how you can fault Dorothy for her breakups. There wasn’t any deceit or cheating on her part- she just found that having a relationship was conflicting with her life goals at the time. It’s her choice to date or not date someone. And besides, if she stayed with either of them out of obligation, she might just resent them for keeping her from her dreams.
As for Joyce, the general expectation is that you shouldn’t go for someone in a monogamous relationship. Most people wouldn’t want feel comfortable knowing someone was flirting with their partner. If Jacob breaks up with Raidah, fine, but Joyce shouldn’t be making any moves until then.
It’s also blaming her for her work-a-holic/ the pressure she puts on herself and takes no account other factors. It’s not comparable
There is just a gross amount of misogyny often directed at Dorothy, because strong women with autonomy are scary.
Remember begbert filling every comment section with their *feelings* on Dor every time she showed up?
I think the misogyny statement with Dorothy is an odd one since most of the cast is female and well-liked. Dorothy is also a weird person to say is a strong woman with autonomy as her chief qualities when that applies to a lot of characters.
I dislike Dorothy because she reminds me of MALE characters I dislike. Specifically, Holden on the Expanse. Holden is ostensibly the protagonist of the Expanse but his holier than thou attitude grates and overshadows the other characters repeatedly. The narrative also seems to bend over to say they’re right.
I admit, I wouldn’t want Dorothy to become President in this universe. I’d like Becky to with First Lady and Secretary of Education Dinah. I’d also like her VP to be Leslie.
I admit, I may just be letting my love of Joyce put me off on Dorothy in this.
I’m choosing sides in an issue where I shouldn’t.
I got about a third of the way through a detailed rant about the legal reasons preventing such a political outcome before remembering that we are talking about a comic strip.
I’m not upset with Dorothy for ending her relationships based on her needs and her life goals. I’m upset with Dorothy for framing it like she’s doing it for their own good every time. Like she knows what’s best for Danny and Walky and is only making this decision not because she wants to or has to for her sake, but for theirs somehow. It’s… well at best, it’s more than a little condescending. Her grades were slipping and she made a choice, one that I support considering how important those aspirations are to her. But her maturity has also blinded her to her own immaturity as well. She fell for Walky hard when it was supposed to be a just for fun thing. It happens. But rather than end it or commit she kinda lost sight of things for a while, telling him she loves him but also reminding him of how temporary and casual they are. None of these actions are wrong or even hard to understand but they were very harmful to the person she cares about and she still ended the relationship on the basis of it being what’s best for him rather than being honest that it’s more because it’s what she feels is best for herself. Gotta commend Willis for the nuance here.
I do think this is sometimes a problem she has, though I will commend her on seemingly recognizing it when she realized she was taking Walky for granted and that her yo-yoing him was a bullshit move on her part.
Yeah, pretty much this. That she did realize it is a good thing. That her reaction was to double down and that she’s still locked in the same pattern (witness her “just one more comfort sex” bit) is not.
fair, but i do think it’s a pretty reasonable assumption that someone doesn’t wanna get jerked around. like, it’s possible to recognize that you’re mistreating someone and they’re blinded to it by their infatuation with you. the mature thing to do is to admit to it and work to stop it even if not asked.
i do agree that it is better to frame a break-up in terms of one’s own needs; even if it’s about one’s own perceived wrongs it can be framed as “i have a problem and i don’t feel ok treating you this way” instead of “this isn’t fair to you and you’d be better off without me”. i think it is probably fair to assume that
I admit, I may be letting my love of Joyce and thinking Jacob is a big boy who can shut down a woman’s advances if she makes a move (or not if he’s interested and can break up with Raidah instead) have him side with Dorothy here.
Dorothy is also acting like she’s Joyce’s parent and scolding her. It’s not a good attitude as no one likes righteous posturing–look at Joyce early on.
Walky also dumped her first, and she restarted the relationship with “I forgot why we were fighting” when she was the one at fault.
I keep hearing that reasoning, and I don’t get it. Why shouldn’t Joyce show an interest in Jacob, just because he is already in a relationship with Raidah? It is his choice to shut that down or engage in it.
Anything else is denying Jacob his agency. He is not a possession to be fought over, he is a person making that choice for themselves.
Because it’s massively disrespectful to other people’s relationships?
I don’t get this, really. Why?
There’s only two parties here that have to make a choice. It may hurt the third party, sure, but the responsibility for that hurt is on the one making the choice (Jacob here), not the one expressing an interest.
The only reason I can think of that would be a problem is if one considers the relationship between Jacob and Raidah a possessive one, i.e. Joyce is taking something away from Raidah. But if we grant that Jacob has agency, it is not Joyce doing the taking away, isn’t it?
There does appear to be some massive gulf of understanding here. Let’s say I don’t agree with your “possession” logic, but I still find hitting on people in relationships a bad thing.
From the back and forth over this here since this story line started, I’m pretty sure I can’t explain it in any way that’ll convince those who don’t think that way, or vice versa. We don’t share common axioms on this and thus can’t reason to the same conclusions.
I am pretty sure, from the reactions of other characters and other context clues, that this is not meant by Willis to be a good or even morally neutral thing for Joyce to do. It’s meant to be her screwing up and learning a lesson from it. But we’ll see how that plays out.
I would be annoyed if I found out that somebody had been seriously hitting on my husband. If he took them up on it I would be a devastated furious mess, and it’s probable that the only thing keeping me from doing a very realistic inpersonation of “rampaging vengeance demon” is the knowledge that this would hurt our two daughters.
The third party doing that would be rude. Him doing it would be a betrayal.
But also? We’ve been a couple for 13 years, married 8, and have two kidlets together.
When I thought I had got back together with an ex and he “decided” I had been too drunk to know what I was doing so we should stay friends instead, and a mutual friend told me that actually he had got together with the friend’s ex the following day – my response was to laugh. I was mainly irritated that he hadn’t been honest with me and was trying to tell me what I thought and how I felt about it. We hadn’t been together for 9 months or so at that point, while I had thought we were giving things another shot I was basically about as committed as if this had happened in the first few days of a new relationship.
Being in a relationship with people doesn’t confer ownership – but it is a social convention to respect other people’s commitments, and to keep the ones you make. And yeah, if it’s not working then ending it and moving on is an option – but moving on and starting a new relationship before ending the old one is frowned upon.
Because if you’re in a monogamous relationship you’re saying, “hey, I’m currently seeing this person and not interested in someone else”. Joyce knows this. Like, technically it’s not wrong to hit on people at their job, but it’s still a shitty thing to do cause of the power differential between employee and customer. Even if Jacob might not have outright said “no Joyce I’m not interested” being in a monogamous relationship is a soft no. Boundary pushing behaviour is not charming.
The debate centers around her approach–is she showing an interest, or just trying to undermine Jacob’s interest in Raidah, planning on making her move after they break up? The former is, frankly, fine and easy for Jacob to address if he chooses; the latter is more manipulative than a lot of people are comfortable with.
No. It really doesn’t. For some people it may, but not overall. There’s a fundamental gap here between “hitting on people in relationships/trying to break them up is just wrong” and the “it’s only wrong if you’re nasty or underhanded about it” crowds.
I do think at least in intent, she’s going beyond “showing an interest”. Though her actions may not be particularly bad yet, she’s gotten to “it’s not stealing because he’s supposed to be mine” in this strip. She’s had a “bring it on” staredown with her “rival”.
Now that’s an answer that has some logic in it beyond “It just isn’t done!”. Thank you for that. This reasoning at least is based on Jacob’s agency: he made a monogamous choice and Joyce should respect that.
And I agree, boundary pushing in that case would not be appropriate. Unfortunately the way I remember the storyline it was Jacob who let Joyce inside his boundaries, which gave her at least some justification to be a little flirty.
How the fuck is that in any way comparable? Choosing to end her own damn relationship with someone is nothing like manipulating a friend and hoping to break up his relationship.
It is not even slightly immoral to dump someone. No matter the reason.
The way that she did it with Walky the last time, was, in fact, pretty shitty. So ya, you can compare it.
I don’t know wtf you’re talking about. She was honest with him and as gentle about as she possibly could have been
yeah even if it was shitty (it wasn’t) it still wouldn’t be comparable as it’s a totally different thing! i have to wonder how you think that should’ve gone.
I think:
1. Dorothy should have been upfront with Dan from the beginning that she wanted to break up before he went to Indiana first. Honesty is important to relationships and I think she made a mistake but that’s forgivable.
Plus Dan was being a creepy weirdo.
2. She gave Walky tons of mixed signals about their relationship, which she admits was wrong.
I think basically with the fact she’s been in some complicated relationship drama that she should be more sympathetic since Joyce was very much trying to supportive of HER. In fact, wasn’t she invited to pizza as a way to help her get over Walky?
I think she should say to Joyce, “Relationships are complicated and you like someone in a relationship. But is that really a good thing?” Talk to her as a friend, don’t judge.
I’m pretty sure she was invited to pizza not to help her, but because Joyce was “reclaiming her time” (over Dorothy’s protests about going to lunch making the break-up uncomfortable even). Joyce is at her most supportive vis-a-vis Dorothy when it is in her own best interests to be supportive.
I agree that Dorothy is being judgey in a non-constructive way, especially since she immediately walks away, but honestly I feel like this is a “if you don’t see why this is wrong, I can’t help you” situation for her. Based on so many other comments on here supporting what Joyce is doing, I imagine many commentators who agree with Dorothy can relate to that.
Speaking of which, I’m not sure Joyce deserves Dorothy’s support in this. And that’s coming from someone who believes Joyce has an appropriate avenue here to get what she wants. And that is to tell Jacob, “I have feelings for you. I know you’re in a relationship and I respect that, but I would’ve regretted it if I didn’t tell you.” Her deliberate attempts to lure him away, on the other hand, both disrespect his relationship (she’s essentially treating him as if he’s single and he’s not), and don’t give him an opportunity to shut it down, because he’s not even aware of what she’s doing–even if he was aware, I’m not even sure he’d be comfortable shutting it down, because it’s been subtle enough that Joyce has plausible deniability and then he’d look like a jerk for accusing her.
TL;DR it’s not bad to let him know he has another option. It’s bad to do so in a way that a) refuses to acknowledge that he is in a relationship, and b) doesn’t make it clear enough to let him shut it down.
Okay, but they’re in a defined relationship and Joyce’s goal is specifically to split that established relationship. Jacob isn’t “dating” Raidah as in “casually meeting up with to see if they click.” They’re together, and it doesn’t matter if that’s been the arrangement for five years or five minutes, if you set out with the specific intention of breaking up two people in that arrangement, you are definitively more in the wrong than someone who breaks up with someone they themselves are with because of differing life paths.
i agree with the point in theory but the obvious exceptions have to be named: wouldn’t you help a friend get out of a toxic/abusive relationship? that’s having a goal specifically to split an established relationship. rules like this can’t be rigidly applied in all cases.
Most people don’t help friends get out of a toxic/abusive relationship by moving in on that relationship. It’s.. kind of a different situation altogether.
No, trying to manipulate a friend out of a toxic relationship is generally a bad idea. There’s a reason the standard advice for that situation is to be available as a support network and make it clear that you are and not “try to trick them into dumping them.”
Also does Joyce actually know the relationship is toxic or does she just not like Raidah? This is a genuine question, I can’t remember if she’s aware of any of the things Raidah’s done except for her beef with Sarah.
Nah. All she knows is what Sarah’s told her. And her original logic was ‘I like Sarah, Sarah likes Jacob, Sarah should be together with Jacob!’
I don’t know that Joyce actually has an opinion on Raidah, tbh. She doesn’t seem to consider her existence at all.
Raidah has the role of rival in the rom-com that’s playing out in Joyce’s head. She’s there to be swept aside in the rush of their glamorous courtship.
They’re like, what, two weeks into dating?
At least past three weeks at this stage, as I recall from doing the math a week or so back.
And?
It doesn’t matter how long or short they’ve been dating, it’s still disrespectful to both parties and their relationship. If it had been Dotty and Walky in this scenario or Ruth and Billie, would you still be like “oh well they’ve only been dating for three weeks” ?
I wouldn’t be upset with Ruth if she decided Billie wasn’t for her and she started dating, say, Roz or Sierra. They’ve been through a lot of intense moments but I think time commitment is a form of commitment.
But if that hypothetical had been preceded by Roz/Sierra trying for some time to break up Ruth and Billie?
And no one would be upset with Jacob if he decided Raidah wasn’t for him and started dating Joyce.
The question is would you be upset with Sierra for trying to break up Ruth and Billie so she could date Ruth? (Don’t be silly. No one could be upset with Sierra.) (And there are a lot of other problems with that analogy. Roz making a play for Walky while he and Dorothy were still dating would make a better one, though Roz wouldn’t likely be interested in Walky or in a serious relationship. Maybe Amber? Not aggressive enough. I don’t know. Someone.)
I’d say yes.
Breaking up a couple because you think they’re making each other unhappy is one thing. Breaking them up because you want one of them to yourself is another.
Ah yes, cause breaking up with people is the same as trying to sabotage other people’s relationships, this comment sections, ffs.
Thank you, Dotty, for confronting Joyce.
And man, if Dorothy telling her to stop won’t make her stop, I’m pretty sure nothing short of Becky or Jacob telling her to stop will make her stop
Sal, maybe? Not that Sal’s likely to care, but…
But Sal does care for Joyce, so she might do it if everyone else asks her to
Sal’s tried talking to Joyce about her boundary problem before. It didn’t take. At this point, I think something needs to blow up in her face.
I’m hoping it won’t come to that, but if it does, I hope this is the situation that does it.
Well, Sal’s hair, anyway.
It’d need to be Jacob, given Becky is aware of what’s going on, and not really bothered by it.
yeah which is too bad because this could so easily happen if radiah stopped trying to be the game master and just told jacob she was uncomfortable with joyce’s obvious advances.
Raidah has the little problem of being the jealous girlfriend of someone who objects to jealous girlfriends. If she tells Jacob she objects to Joyce’s attempts at inveigling him, and he doesn’t recognise them for what they are, she’ll have cooked her own goose.
Its been left ambiguous whether his previous breakups were because jealousy was a dealbreaker to him, or because of the jealous ex-girlfriends breaking up with him instead. Either way, he seems to be rational, and if Raidah frames it in a way which makes it clear that she’s not being jealous, I don’t see why he’d be anything but understanding, so Raidah isn’t as devoid of choices as you make it seem
The question can be raised, though, if Raidah is aware of that. If they’re relatively recently dating, prior relationships may have simply been discussed lightly: “Yeah, I had a few relationships, but they ended badly because my girlfriends were jealous of casual friendships,” would be enough to make Raidah cautious on that front.
He has mentioned his past history of trouble with jealous girlfriends to Raidah. That’s how we know about it.
She promptly responded by denying that she was the jealous type.
Isn’t the point she should stop when Jacob tells her to stop? Or Raidah dumps Jacob if he doesn’t?
I mean, sure, thats always a possibility, but I’d much rather have Joyce find out on her own, because there’s always a (small) chance if Jacob tells her to stop that she’s not going to see that its her behaviour thats the problem, and instead think its because he likes Raidah more, and come to the conclusion that “next time i’ll just try harder!”
That’s basically what Roomies!–Joyce did with Danny over and over, right? Danny tells her to stop, Joyce ignores the epiphany, and resolves to try harder to get him?
No, the point she should have stopped was before she started. Purposely flirting with someone already in a relationship is disrespectful and puts them in the uncomfortable position of having to work out if you are just flirting or being nice and finding the right words to convince you to stop doing it.
Pretty sure that it’s Jacob’s call on whether or not he gets “stolen.” Joyce is being remarkably straightforward re: flirting and engaging in an actual friendship with Jacob.
No, being straightforward would be saying ‘I like you. If you like me too, I’m available. If not, I understand.’ It’s clearly pretty controversial whether what she’s doing is wrong but she’s definitely not being straight up.
Especially given that pizza thought-bubble making it obvious Jacob hasn’t figured it out.
I’ve literally never had a woman be that straightforward about being attracted to me in my entire life so far.
That doesn’t make what Joyce is doing straight forward.
I know she’s not being straightforward. I was agreeing with you.
In thirty years I’ve had that happen once, and that relationship immediately exploded because she didn’t know I’m an asshole.
That IS what she’s saying.
Nonverbally.
What real oerson would say something like that out loud?
I’m gonna go with “most real people”? I don’t know about you, but I don’t interpret everyone who’s ever been friendly toward me as implicitly asking me to break up with my girlfriend. If she wants to date him, she should say it, not imply it, especially if she’s expecting him to end an existing relationship for that purpose.
seconded.
If you want someone to break up with their girlfriend and be with you, you need to earn it. If you ask them right off the bat, of course you’ll fail. Joyce isn’t forcing anything. She’s flirting with Jacob and he’s doing it right back.
Definitely not my experience. If you say that outloud you’re a weirdo and instantly sent to pack sand.
The fact that open frank communication and consent questions are popularly seen as unsexy and a marker of awkwardness is kind of the biggest issue in the dating scene, but it IS there and not acknowledging it is mostly just leads to resentment.
I mean, I say stuff like that out loud. (Eg. I typed “would you like to go to Coney Island on Saturday; I’m totally asking you out!”) But, I’m very, very in the minority on it. Nerdy boyfriends consider me a diamond in the rough for being that crystal clear about my flirtations.
I remember my (now) wife giving up on waiting for me to build up confidence and straight up saying “you can kiss me now”. It was very useful
Right?? It’s like a wonderful cheat-code.
Is this a dinosaur comic?
Needs more Dina.
And something tiny to squash like a car or a house.
The alt-text of this comic gives me life!
Okay, I know Old testament is old covenant and Jesus is the new or whatever, but wasn’t the one of the Ten Commandments “Don’t covet another’s wife/husband” or something to that affect? Like.
Joyce, this isn’t cool! Not even by the standards you say you believe in?
I don’t think this is what people meant by “broadening your horizons.”
Who is the other person D is wrong about?
The other person is most likely Amber.
Not married.
The Pod, good point.
C. So?
Really?
If I was dating someone and we were monogamous, and they cheated, and just shrugged and said, “not married” they were not worth getting into that relationship to begin with.
That’s like. THE shittiest excuse.
“I don’t care we didn’t saw “we’re open to other partners” we aren’t married so I am allowed to fuck whoever, right?
That’s. That’s not even polyam or an “open relationship” that’s just being a MAJOR dick.
say*
No, if we’re talking religion, it’s kind of everything. That’s sorta why they do the whole marrying part of marriage. They don’t do it for the cake and presents alone.
We’re not talking about some common-law marriage or something here, either, so even if you want to stretch it, you’re talking about characters who have been dating for maybe a month tops. That’s not comparable to a marriage in any way, shape, or form.
It doesn’t just say your neighbor’s wife, it ends with “or anything that is your neighbor’s”. So girlfriend or wife both qualify.
Thank you
Raidah is kind of an asshole but pretty sure Joyce nor Raidah is into polyam and so that is going after a taken dude. That isn’t cool.
If they say they are together, and exclusive, that isn’t cool for you to do.
Like, even if Raidah’s asshole-ness makes her “have it coming” in some capacity, what Joyce is doing NOW is kinda shit.
And Dorothy. You. You need some self care. I get you don’t want distractions, but Walky was a bit more than that. That’s why this hurts for both of you. If you just through yourself into your work they Walky is about into Amber’s bun’s, I think you will both burn out for very different reasons.
Well. Actually, the same reason.
PRESSURE. Pushing down on me, pushing okay never mind.
Pressing down on you, no man ask for.
Yes, Jacob flirting with Joyce is Dickish. But that doesn’t mean Joyce is innocent as she think she is.
They’re not married or engaged. There’s nothing sacrosanct about their relationship. Very few people marry their first boyfriend.
That doesn’t mean you should be openly flirting with someone you know is in a relationship. It is disrespectful.
Thank you, Sam.
“Cheating, or trying to illicit cheating, doesn’t matter if two people are not married.” is the vibe I am getting from responses.
But they aren’t.
Sarah told Joyce to do it because she hates Raidah. Jacob is reciprocating.
Okay they aren’t fucking, and Jacob and Raidah’s relationship is only a few weeks old. And if it didn’t mean anything, and they were just flirting, and Raidah didn’t care? Another thing.
But Joyce is expressing interest. TO JOYCE. It means something. Jacob did it BACK. To JACOB, it means something. And it means enough TO RAIDAH, to insult and belittle Joyce to her FACE, because she can tell something is going on.
Joyce is not a rebound. Joyce is finding someone new after a long break up.
She is someone who is trying to LITTERALLY get someone to cheat. Someone who is in a committed relationship, with ONE person, to IGNORE the terms of a relationship for HER needs. And Jacob is playing along.
How is this not triggering Joyce’s STAGGERING amount of “temptress/sinner” anxiety?
I don’t know about you? But if I am in a relationship with ONE person, and ONLY one person, and they sleep around or flirting with someone when I have expressed I am not cool with it? That’s not healthy. It’s not healthy when I have done it, either.
This isn’t Raidah saying “You can’t hang out with any girls ever because I need to control your friendships and your life.”
This is her, literally going: “You think you can steal my dude? You are an infant and not worth my time.”
Like, maybe how she’s handling may not be the best, but she’s the MOST right here!
Sarah was worried Joyce would be taken advantage of, her doing this is taking advantage of Joyce. Joyce is saying her feelings for Jacob are more important than Raidah’s feelings and their ALREADY EXISTING RELATIONSHIP. If the tables were turned, she’d flip! And for good reason! And Jacob is fully aware, and still engaging.
This. is. not. Cool.
God. Like. I hope that when I date someone, and if we commit to a one on one relationship, that their excuse for cheating is “we aren’t married.”
WHAT KIND OF LOGIC IS THAT.
Though I agree with pretty much everything you say, I just want to point out that “cheating” isn’t on anyone’s mind. Joyce doesn’t want Jacob to cheat with her, she wants him to dump Raidah and go out with her instead.
Whatever cheating actually would be in her mind. It’s not like she’s planning to have sex even after he breaks up with Raidah and they start dating.
It’s still a dick move to try and break people up, just cause YOU want to date one part of the equasion, and the couple is perfectly happy together.
ehhhh people are overrated
Yes, well, calling ourselves homo sapiens sapiens is grossly narcissistic.
And Willis is very articulately pointing this out.
Also, the number of times that people have rationalized that it’s ‘okay’ for Joyce to flirt with Jacob is kinda unsettling.
Yeah it’s Jacob’s decision whether or not it goes anywhere, and Raidah’s kinda being a terrible person right now, but it doesn’t make what Joyce is doing right or okay. You don’t come onto people who are in a monogamous relationship.
THANK YOU. I’ve been saying this.
It’s sort of 50/50 as I see it.
There are two conflicting ideologies at play here. There’s “All is fair in Love and War” vs “Don’t be a home Wrecker.” If only there was a latter option.
Or. Consent and communication?
Talking about your relationship? If you are dating one person, date them. If you don’t want to, don’t/stop. If you are dating more than one person, and people are cool with it, do it. If not? Stop. Date people who are.
Joyce is only “home wrecking” cause they are two folks in a *closed* (as far as we can tell) Relationship. And, no. That’s not Cool.
Like, it’s not even cool by Joyce’s OWN STANDARDS. I get that they are changing, but she’s STRUGGLED with that change. Why is this easy for her? She’s so sexually repressed that TALKING to Jacob should be hard.
I just don’t get it.
It’s perfectly cool by Joyce’s standards of romance. But that’s because Joyce’s standards of romance are fucked up. They’re based on weird Biblical interpretation and bad romance stories, but by those screwed up standards she’s fine.
He’s not married, so that’s no barrier. If they’re meant to be together, then whatever she does (as the romance heroine) is fine. She’ll beat the rival and win his heart because that’s how the story goes. If not, though she probably hasn’t really considered this, then it won’t work out and he’ll stick with Raidah and everything will still be fine.
“It’s perfectly cool by Joyce’s standards of romance. But that’s because Joyce’s standards of romance are fucked up.”
Fair and good point.
I still don’t. Idk even by her own rules, “Don’t covet someone’s stuff.”
Like, Even if you have a point, this should trigger her anxiety over sinning, right? I’m pretty sure she’s used the old testament as a defense before?
It seems weird.
Nope. They’re meant to be together. Jacob isn’t Raidah’s “stuff”. Or her husband.
Bible rules can be twisted to mean pretty much anything you want them to. 🙂
I really don’t understand what you twos’ point is about Joyce. In her view, Jacob hasn’t married Raidah yet. Until and unless he does, he’s fair game for a good old-fashioned seduction. Remember, Joyce is thinking she wants to seduce and marry Jacob. She wants to deliver the goods.
While I can see trying to come on to people who are in a monogamous relationship being a jackass thing to do if you intended on loving them and leaving them, what exactly is wrong with deciding to compete for a monogamous relationship with someone if you’re willing to go the whole way with them?
‘Until marriage’ is a terrible qualifier. What if the couple in question can’t get married legally? Or if they just don’t want to go through the whole process and are happy with each other?
If someone’s in a monogamous relationship and they don’t appear to be unhappy, you don’t mess with that. ‘Thinking’ that they’d be happier with someone else is borderline arrogant if they’re not in actual emotional/physical danger.
And how exactly is one supposed to know that X and Y in an apparently monogamous relationship are satisfied in it if there is no Z who actually makes an offer for either X or Y to switch?
I agree that marriage is a strange place to draw a line that should not be crossed, but so is any given place. What I don’t understand is why you think a line should be drawn at “apparently monogamous relationship” but not at “marriage” so strongly that you think Joyce worse for the second choice.
You’re the one who put the justification at ‘if and until they’re married, it’s okay’. If they’re not open to seeing other people, it’s not okay to knowingly go after someone who’s attached.
Your first argument is like the ‘how do you know you’re really gay if you haven’t tried otherwise?’ argument. If people are happy, they’re happy.
Yeah, being in a closed monogamous relationship is basically saying: “I’m dating this person, I’m not going to date anyone else.” And besides, Jacob’s given no indication that he’s unhappy with Raidah. Ignoring that is a pretty damn shitty thing to do.
Adjudicus, good point too
Actually, I’m not the one who put that justification there. I am positing that Joyce put her justification there because it fits with her hilariously literal Christianity. Bible says, “you shall not covet your neighbor’s spouse.” Joyce says, “well they aren’t married yet, and so until they are, I’m not in sin.” And this leads her to make the clearest possible play for Jacob here.
Joyce never used ‘well, they’re
not married’ as her justification. You’re putting words in her mouth.
It’s not okay if Joyce justifies it, if Sarah justifies it, if Dorothy, Billie or Joe justify it.
You went from ‘well, it’s okay because’ to ‘well, it’s okay for Joyce because she said so’.
Actually, Joyce said: “The whirlwind romance with my dashingly handsome husband is all the glamour I need.” It’s obvious to us as readers that Joyce is thinking about Jacob here. She is envisioning herself as getting married to him, as naive as that looks to us. So “they’re not married yet” is totally in play.
Personally I think this all would be okay anyway, and Joyce is conducting herself quite admirably, if for shallow reasons. She’s right in thinking she’s a good match for Jacob now. She’s wrong in chronically underestimating her own potential for change.
Clearly, I’m an incorrigible flirt.
“monogamous relationship” and “marriage” are not equally arbitrary. “monogamous relationship” means “i want to be with this one person and it’s important to me”. that’s not arbitrary, that’s the something important being made explicit. disregarding that is extremely disrespectful.
meanwhile drawing the line at marriage is an arbitrary distinction; it’s “that desire to be with one person isn’t important but these very specific rituals are”.
Interesting; while I agree with you that monogamous relationship and marraige are not equally arbitrary, I wouldn’t ever have thought to rank the arbitrariness in that manner.
A person can wake up on Friday in Detroit in a monogamous relationship with another, then wake up on Saturday in Vegas and decide they’re not, and then wake up on Monday in Detroit again, again monogamous, all with the same person, all consensually.
In contrast, marriage, as a legal and contractual status, is not easy to reverse. If we’re married today, chances are we can’t decide (even consensually!) that we’re not going to be married tomorrow.
So if I have any indication that a married couple prizes fidelity in their marriage I wouldn’t disturb them. And Joyce wouldn’t touch that with a 10-foot pole.
But being in a monogamous relationship? Let’s not forget how real and common serial monogamy is, and that’s -with- the marriage. For Z to say to X, “Dump Y and be with me” totally respects X’s monogamy as long as Z is single. And it’s not even an arse thing for Z to do as long as Z intends to deliver X a relationship at least as fulfilling as Z thinks X has with Y. That’s exactly what Joyce is doing.
But it doesnt, because X’s monogamy is based on being in a relationship with Y, and therefore Z asking X to break it off would be disrespectful to X’s commitment and choice to be in a monogamous relationship
Oh interesting. You’re thinking about respecting the relationship with Y on presumption that to X, Y is worth being monogamous for, but probably not a generic W. I disagree with your presumption, but your logic makes sense.
Nono, is that why you said it was probably arrogant for Z to make an offer?
I always thought most people’s monogamy is a personal habit not contingent on the partner. That’s why I presumed it would be reasonable for Z to offer to X as long as Z was single and capable of supporting monogamy.
@ Kalirren
Not really, I’m trying to say that because X is in a relationship with Y, and because they’re monogamous, it would be disrespectful to break off that relationship, because X being monogamous and in a relationship with Y sends a message that they’re together and are only exclusively together, and if Z tries to break the relationship, Z is essentially ignoring that message and the choice that X and Y have made to be together, if that makes sense.
You can break up with someone if you’re not satisfied, even if there isn’t a ‘Z’ around forcing the issue.
Default assumption should be if someone’s in a relationship they’re happy with it. If they’re talking to you about how they’re not happy, then you can advise them to break up. If they don’t, assume they’re pulling the old “my wife doesn’t understand me” routine in order to get you to cheat with them.
“If they’re talking to you about how they’re not happy, then you can advise them to break up. If they don’t, assume they’re pulling the old “my wife doesn’t understand me” routine in order to get you to cheat with them.”
YES.
I’d like to add something to the first part, though:
“Default assumption should be if someone’s in a relationship, you are not entitled to them, period. Unless both are cool with it.”
Even THAT can be shortened to “You are entitled to no one. If you aren’t dating that person or couple, or what ever, and you being a part of it violates how they defined the relationship TOGETHER, that’s cheating.”
And if you do that when the person you actually are interested says “no” and you won’t respect THAT. That’s even worse. Which is thankfully not the case here.
Nono that’s all I am saying.
Okay that’s not a moral system anyone has and we know it’s not the moral system Joyce has specifically because she’s here contextualizing it as, “Okay because it’s for true love.” So she knows it’s not okay otherwise.
It’s not okay to try to get someone to cheat on their SO just because they’re not married. At all.
Joyce is not “getting Jacob to cheat on Raidah”. That’s the whole point of a few comics back when Joyce and Raidah lock eyes.
Joyce has challenged Raidah for Jacob. What Jacob does now is ABOVE board for all three of them (okay, possibly not Jacob, if he continues thinking about pizza!) Go back and re-read if you didn’t understand this point…
It’s still terrible. Neither of them have Jacob’s best interests in mind at this point. It’s a pissing contest.
Sounds like the point to take away from this is that Jacob should ‘break up’ with both of them.
That’s a silly argument. All Jacob need do to assure his own best interest is choose expediently between his suitors. Unfortunately, many people being fought over don’t choose promptly, and Jacob’s thinking about pizza does not forebode well.
he already chose. he entered a monogamous relationship, which is a contract that says “for the duration of this relationship, i will not be pursuing other relationships”. it’s shitty, i don’t do it, but that’s what it is and you need to respect people’s choices and not try to undermine them for personal gain.
Team JacobxPizza!
also ew at this language about “challenging”. i don’t even know how to express how fucking gross this is. i hope someone more articulate than me can put this into words.
I hope so too. Usually when I find a challenge is gross, it’s because the person who initiates the challenge is doing so to derogate the agency of their target, i.e., Z says to X, “you can’t be with Y, because I beat Y”. Joyce is not doing that here (yet); so far she’s just attracting Jacob. Fundamentally her play is, “Hey, you have a choice”, not “Hey, you don’t have one”, so I don’t think her challenge is gross…
But if you think that it’s gross for a different reason please tell me, I really would want to know…
Maybe it’s because challenge normally is about winning something, which here would mean Jacob is the “prize”, so to speak, which seems pretty dehumanizing and objectifying.
She’s not challenging Jacob at this point. She’s challenging Raidah. Why would Joyce, who’s normally very unfiltered, not just outright tell Jacob, ‘hey, I think you’ll be happier with me than Raidah’? Because she already knows it’s something people frown upon, to the point that she had to pre-justify it to Dorothy (‘it’s not stealing if it’s meant to be!’).
I mean, if you honestly can’t see why moving in on someone who’s in a relationship is kinda predatory and Not Okay, I’m not sure how else to put it to you.
I honestly can’t see why making offers to people who are in relationships is Not Okay. It’s always seemed to me to be even more Not Okay to make an offer to a person who isn’t in a relationship, and who isn’t making any offers themselves; with such a person, why would you assume they were interested in a relationship at all? With someone in a relationship, at least you know they’re in the market in the first place…
Someone in a relationship should be off the market. They shouldn’t be expressing interest in other people unless it’s an okay thing in the terms of their relationship, and you should be implicitly respecting that.
I mean, you’re suggesting that it’s better to hit on someone who’s in a relationship than to chance on someone who’s single. The latter case, worst case scenario you’ll just get a ‘no’, in the former you can end up hurting two people.
Yes, that’s exactly my suggestion. I think what you’re saying makes sense for one person but not in aggregate. Even if a whole bunch of people hit on the same person who’s in a relationship, the suitors winnow themselves down to the 1 or 2 who are actually worth considering, and who may cause some drama with the current partner. But if even a small number of people proposition a single person who isn’t interested, they end up getting harassed and probably leave the relationship market for the long term because of it. I’ll take the drama over the harassment.
@ Kalirren
“Harassed”?
At worst they’ll be rude when rejecting you, but harassment? I can’t see that happening at all.
The “challenging” language is gross, but it’s the right language if you look back at that scene with Joyce and Raidah locking eyes.
The language is gross because the behavior is gross.
… if it’s shitty for the first reason, it’s shitty for the second reason. Your ultimate intent doesn’t matter; the action in itself is the shitty thing, here. Instead of respecting that there are two people in a relationship, and as far as you know are happy, you’re setting out to tear them apart, literally only caring about your own feelings over those of both the person you desire, and the person that they’re currently with.
It’s A Bad Thing. Stop trying to justify it.
Well, but what what if as far as you know, you could give your target at least as much as their current partner could?
Again, this is my point; Joyce is not trying to hook up with Jacob, then leave Jacob after she’s had her fun, without caring whether Jacob or Raidah get back together or not. That would be an arse thing to do, but that’s not what’s going on here, at least not -yet-.
No, Joyce wants Jacob for keeps, and is offering herself as Raidah’s competition and rival. I think this is pretty clean and straight, at least between Joyce and Raidah. If she succeeds, Jacob and Raidah breaking up is a natural and intended consequence. If she fails, Jacob and Raidah stay together. Either way, presumably Jacob ends up at least as happy as he would be if Joyce had not offered, and it’s a zero-sum game between Joyce and Raidah, neither of whose feelings are worth more or less than the other.
Of course the irony here is that Jacob may not be as aware as he needs to be in this situation, which creates the possibility that Jacob will actually be made unhappy…but that would be Jacob’s fault, not Joyce’s.
You’re ignoring how Jacob being in a monogamous relationship sends a message that he’s with Raidah, and he doesn’t want to be with anyone else, and Joyce is deliberately bulldozing right over that.
Also, you’re disregarding any fallout that might fall onto Jacob no matter whether Joyce succeeds or not. Already we can see that Joyce is causing tension in Raidah and Jacob’s relationship, tension which will probably still be there no matter if Joyce succeeds or fails.
Of course Joyce is bulldozing over that. That’s Raidah’s vision of the board, and Joyce is on the other side. She’s a bona fide rival now. She had better be playing to win.
I think you may be ignoring how quickly Jacob could shut Joyce down if he so chose. After he becomes aware of the rivalry, one subconscious eyeroll would do it. But he’s not -doing- that. Instead, he keeps subconsciously giving Joyce chances.
Okay, if you think that Joyce not respecting Jacob’s choice to be in a closed relationship with Raidah is perfectly fine, I vehemently disagree with that and have nothing more to say on that.
Also, even if Jacob does shut down Joyce, the tension between Jacob and Raidah WILL STILL BE THERE. Jacob shutting it down might temporarily alleviate it, sure, but it’ll still be there. And besides, he’s very much NOT aware of the rivalry. I’m pretty sure he’s completely oblivious about the whole thing, consciously or subconsciously.
Screw it, I’ll weigh in. The argument seems to be what’s the answer to, “Is Joyce being a shitty person?”
I think your argument fails because Joyce isn’t making a clear offer. She is playing a game. It LOOKS like Raidah sees and is willing to play the game, but lets face it – Jacob is pretty damned clueless here.
He doesn’t seem to see others being attracted to him: Joyce, Ethan when seeing him lifting weights in their room, Sarah. He doesn’t seem to see the weird battle between Joyce and Raidah (thinking about pizza).
It’s not a clear offer. It’s sneaky, it’s deceitful, and Joyce should be better than that by her own standards as she has shown them – wanting people to be honest. With her, with themselves. She may faulter, but in the end, she values honesty. Making a clear offer would be better, even if strange by most accepted standards. It’s the honest way to do it.
It’s also disrespectful of the existing relationship and the autonomy of Jacob. Seducing somebody away from their significant other is not unlike tricking them. Attempting to do so, even with happily ever after in mind, assumes you’re better than the person they are with, assumes they would want to end the relationship if they knew they could have you instead, and completely disregards the feelings of the person you want them to leave, and the value the one you want might have in the person they are currently with.
That’s all typically agreed on, negative behavior. Joyce is being shitty.
Now, this is all coming from somebody who’d actually like to see Joyce with Jacob. But if she seduces him away, without making her intentions clear to Jacob, they have a relationship built on negative behavior. I for one hope Dotty gets through to her and she just levels with Jacob and gives him the autonomy he deserves because he is a person, not some thing to be won. That is how Joyce is treating him. Like a thing. That’s shitty.
I don’t know, that seems like a very black and white view of relationships. Dating has a lot of stages that range from just testing out compatibility all the way to full on commitment. I don’t see any reason that every single person that is at any stage of dating should be off limits.
And, while maybe I forgot an instance, I haven’t really seen anything that Joyce has done that I would consider outright sabotage. She put herself out there and is flirting the extent she knows how while highlighting the pros of herself versus the cons of Raidah.
As others have said, the decision is ultimately going to be up to Jacob.
I think people can and do come into relationships like that because…that’s life.
Thank you, Dorothy.
Go suck on a raw lemon, Joyce.
Mmm, raw lemons.
(I agree with the rest of your sentiment, but I find raw lemons pretty tasty – and I’m even known to buy myself a raw lime as a snack from time to time.)
That’s true, lemons are delicious.
Go eat a non-compartmentalized taco, Joyce.*
* = I know a lot of people like those as well, but Joyce doesn’t.
Well put, BBCC. On both counts.
Credit to Daniel’s contribution, too.
I like adding lemon juice to my kool-ade and my sweet tea.
She’s also not directly breaking them up if he comes to her,. Then again I don’t know if my word can be trusted, I think my bias has been corrupted.
This is quite possibly the most Roomies Joyce has been in DoA.
Damn. How do you thumbs-up comments in here?
With a “+1”!
+2 for MM.
+1
And from a Hobbesian perspective, you’re all shit.
And from my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
Well then, you are lost!
And from a Saganist perspective, we’re all starstuff.
I’m glad Dorothy is calling out this BS
Joyce seems to think she’s living in a romcom, though was she actually allowed to watch those? there’s not a lot of emphasis on Jesus and most of them feature unmarried working women who are not actively looking for a Christian husband
She watched the Parent Trap, at least.
She was allowed to watch Twilight. Which explains a lot.
Yesh.
She also watched Titanic. And while I never saw it, it’s my understanding that an affianced young woman got involved with a man she just met who drew her like one of his French girls and then he gave his life for her/she wouldn’t let him on the piece of wood.
Somewhere in that last sentence is probably a good example of what Joyce thinks is true love.
Rose’s fiance was also a controlling, abusive jackass who tried to murder the guy she actually liked, so there’s also that. 😛
I assume just lots and lots of wholesome hallmark channel movies.
now I’m wondering if Joyce watched CHRISTIAN romantic movies, which are usually patently awful. Mr Willis, did Joyce watch “Old Fashioned”? did she think it was a good relationship??
Really, if you’re going to compare this to one of those then it’s really more of a Christian Mingle: The Movie or even a Dear Santa.
*ahem*
“Tigers are great,
they can’t be beat.
If I was a tiger,
that would be neat.”
*polite applause*
Tyger, tyger, burning bright/
In the watches of the night/
What immortal hand or eye/
Defined your mortal symmetry?
(I think I got about 12% right).
“Blake wrote that. Apparently the tiger was on fire. Maybe his tail got struck by lightning or something. Flammable felines; what a weird subject for poetry.”
Tyger, tyger, burning bright
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearsome symmetry?
(Then there are four stanzas of weird stuff about God, then the first stanza repeats with “Dare frame” replacing “Could frame”. Blake is wild stuff, but I don’t think I get it.
The zebra’s stripes are lacking hues,
So they don’t compare to you-know-whose.
Orange, black and white is what to wear!
It’s haute couture for those who dare!
It’s camouflage, and stylish, too!
Yes, tigers look the best, it’s true!
“It goes on?”
“Pages and pages. Tedious, isn’t it?”
“Tiger burning in the sun, fast asleep his day is done. Lying there twas warmth he sought, the sun has made his tummy hot. One sad fact he overlooked, his brain is now completely cooked.”
Get used to disappointment when it comes to people, Dorothy.
Mike your favorite character, by any chance?
I feel like you can also get a bit of this from Sarah or Ruth.
Not really. Dorothy just has too high of expectations of people. Probably stemming from her own unrealistically high expectations of herself.
…I wonder if this is a reaction to her last conversation with Joe, the way Joe throwing himself at Malaya was a reaction to that same conversation.
Wait which convo was that?
Her last convo with Joe was the one in which Joe told her that Sarah wanted her to be with Jacob (inadvertently setting Joyce on the path of actively and intentionally going after Jacob herself in the process), obliquely referred to in today’s strip as “yesterday afternoon”.
Found here (also, the following strip): http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/pushing/
That’s an angle I hadn’t considered. It makes me wonder, if Joe had not bailed on the conversation, would this be happening right now?
Neither did I, Brad. Man, that was recent ish, too. There’s so much going on both in the strip and in life I forgot.
But, I think that makes me even MORE confused as to WHY she would do THAT as her reaction to that. Even if she sees Raidah as “less worthy” it’s still. IT’S NOT ABOUT WHETHER YOU *CAN* Joyce it’s shitty you WOULD if you know he’s WITH someone in a commited relationship
Oh thank god someone else finally said it.
Tigers ARE the coolest.
Oh yeah, and what Dorothy was saying. Over-under on it taking Dorothy cutting Joyce out entirely for this lesson to stick?
I’m of two minds here.
On the one hand, Joyce shouldn’t be throwing herself at Jacob. He’s not a prize to be won, he’s a human being. On that same note, Raidah is toxic as hell and clearly emotionally manipulative. Her relationship with Jacob has barely begun and it’s already clearly abusive.
On the other hand, Dorothy is projecting here. She builds people up and clearly blames them when they don’t live up to the standard she’s set forth. It’s unfair of her to expect Joyce to not pursue what she wants while she herself forces others to the wayside to pursue what she wants.
Ultimately, there are no innocents here except for maybe Jacob. I hope Joyce realizes treating him like a thing to be won is the wrong move and that Dorothy stops judging people so harshly because they don’t fit her mental image of them.
This is a false equivalence, though. Dorothy ended her *own* relationships to pursue what she wants. I think she can do that and still be disappointed in someone who seeks to end someone *else’s* relationship solely to date one of the involved parties.
What’s going on with Walky right now is not an end in any way, shape, or form though. She doesn’t mean to, but she’s stringing that boy along in many ways that you see mostly in college.
How is her relationship with Walky not, at this point, “ended”?
Because she has broken up with him twice, and the first time they had the hots on an elevator, and the second time she almost chased after him and boned him.
Both times she ended the relationship without resolution. She knows Walky has the emotional maturity of a preteen and both times she doesn’t give him opportunities to be honest about it. Nor does she seem to care. There are still lingering strings that do not need to be there and because she chose, both times, to end it in a way that isn’t functionally healthy in any way shape or form (“taking a break” and this current iteration).
Both times, she took control and without consideration for either of their feelings, ended it in a way that didn’t actually help either of them deal with the issues.
It’s not intentional, and it’s not malicious, and it’s probably for the best considering her aspirations, but it’s not healthy in how it’s being done nor is it considerate of anyone, not even her.
And that’s fine, since you know, she’s allowed to have control of her own life, but all of that together means that their relationship still exists in some weird nebulous space of “We’re broken up, but we see eachother, we’re going to talk with one another, and… things”. There’s been no closure for either party.
Walky is just as responsible, since he’s taking the opposite road and pretending nothing’s wrong, but he hasn’t been the one generally taking action in the relationship. And he probably should. Someone telling you “We’re on a break” and then letting you two do stuff the first time you see eachother isn’t how he deserves to be treated. And he should be willing to be more honest.
It’s like two orbiting bodies pretending that they’re separate now. They’re not. They’ve said the words, they haven’t actually come to that conclusion.
She’s not “stringing him along” in any way whatsoever. The “nebulous space” their relationship now exists within is “friends who used to date”. It’s actually well-traveled territory.
Shifting from a romantic relationship to a platonic one takes time because feelings are messy, but the way they’ve gone about it so far is as healthy as one could hope for at this stage.
She was also plenty considerate of both her feelings and Walky’s. She thought going on pause would work, but it didn’t. When she realized that it wasn’t enough and that it was unfair to Walky to drag it out further, she ended it. She’s now been trying to give him whatever space he needs while trying to make sure he understands he doesn’t need to avoid her. It will no doubt continue to be awkward for a while, but they’ll be fine.
Even Walky has been handling it reasonably well. He was unhealthily continuing to focus too much on Dorothy’s emotional needs to the exclusion of his own at first, but talking it out with Amber seems like it’s already helped him there.
Both of them still need to figure out how to better manage their respective workloads, but the breakup was handled just fine.
She literally wanted to jump him while he was dealing with that. She had to be physically stopped. She would have done so unless someone had physically stopped her.
That is -not- -okay-. That is disrespectful as fuck and honestly, you glossing over that isn’t cool.
That is -not- emotionally healthy.
There has been at -no point- any confirmation from the character of Dorothy or her actions that she will stick to this.
So no, this is not the nebulous “they used to date” because only one side has shown actual self control and restraint over this and it’s been Walky, and I can’t believe I’m saying that.
Maybe it’s being glossed over because the strip you’re referring to glossed it over *itself* by making that comment the set up to a punchline? This is a drama-comedy webcomic, after all, and Willis makes it very clear what aspects are dramatic (this strip today) and what aspects are comedic. But even if we say all punchlines should be taken seriously, is it such a crime to say thoughts out loud? Sure, it’s not very healthy that the thought occurred to Dorothy, but you’re building it up like she began sprinting after him and Joyce had to tackle her. She stepped in his direction and Joyce laid a hand on her shoulder. You honestly think she had the intention of following him and going through with the “quickie”, after announcing it to Joyce? If that was what she really planned to do, she’s smart enough to know that if she announced it, Joyce would insist that she go to lunch.
But she announced it because, again, set-up to a punchline.
Maybe you could make a case for stringing him along with the pause, but she herself realized it, hence the break-up. At this point, both of them are aware that they are totally broken up. That’s hardly stringing anyone along, regardless of how seriously you take one comment from one strip.
It wouldn’t be the first time a “just a punchline” has come back to be a plot or character point. They’re currently both aware they’re broken up, like they were both aware they were on pause when they jumped each other in the elevator. This is a more drastic step, but it doesn’t actually mean it’s going to take any better.
I’m not at all convinced Dorothy and Walky are done. Whether that’s a good thing or not, I don’t know.
Dorothy had a momentary lapse in judgement because she was horny and the break up was still fresh enough that getting back together would’ve been super easy. If Joyce hadn’t been there to stop her, she might’ve done it, but she’d have regretted it almost immediately.
The possibility/hope of maybe getting back together is almost ALWAYS something that lingers for one or both people after a breakup, even when its a much more hostile breakup than this was.
The fact that her resolve faltered does not make this unhealthy. It means it’s difficult. If emotionally healthy decisions were always simple and easy, most people would have a lot fewer regrets.
However, it still follows the pattern she’d already established. Set limits for the relationship, break them herself. Request the pause, break the pause with sex. Break up, go for the comfort sex. At least the last one was stopped.
If it had actually been a one-time thing, not part of a pattern, I’d be less concerned about it.
I also think the breakup was a mistake from the start. I think they’re good together, they’re good for each other and they’re still in love with each other. I don’t think Dorothy’s idea that relationships are a distraction that she needs to avoid to focus on her real goals is actually healthy for her.
If she doesn’t get back together with Walky, she’s likely to find another relationship and throw herself into that until it becomes too much of a distraction and she has to dump him to focus herself again.
I’d rather see her work through that with Walky than repeat the process again.
Even if breaking up ends up being a decision she regrets, it was a good decision.
She’s struggling to balance her workload just to allow for her own emotional needs. Fitting in a whole boyfriend with needs of his own (and her sense of obligation to be the “perfect girlfriend” by helping him even when she doesn’t have time) was ramping up the difficulty for her.
Even if it turns out there were BETTER decisions she could’ve made, it was a good decision. If you have to figure out how to handle something through trial and error, that’s better than paralyzing yourself with indecision for ages while you agonize over finding the optimal course of action
You can’t see the future. You won’t always be able to tell what’s going to work for you in advance. It’s okay to try to feel things out when you’re not sure
Agreed that it might have been the best she could see at the time, but I think that’s her flaw and not a good decision at all. It all ties back to her thoughts just before kissing Walky for the first time. “I don’t have time to waste on this. It’s self-sabotage. A distraction.”
She’s stepping backwards, rejecting what she did try and throwing herself back on the “relationships are self-sabotage” track and that’s going to be worse for her than any amount of distraction.
At least that’s my prediction. Don’t really see how else it can go. It’s certainly not going to be as simple as “dumped Walky, caught up on homework and is now past the crisis.”
They’re both responsible for the state of that relationship, however. Dorothy isn’t making an attempt to *manipulate* Walky, and he’s just as capable of saying no to any continuation thereof as she is. She should certainly be more responsible, since she’s the one who called things off, but she’s hardly going out of her way to “string him along.” She’s just conflicted – you know, as in, she’s human?
Then why aren’t you all giving the same exact amount of “she’s human” to Joyce right now?
Because Joyce has been told, by Joe, that what she’s doing is wrong, she even knows that what she’s doing is wrong and yet she’s still trying to kid herself that her behaviour is ok. It isn’t and good on Dorothy for telling Joyce outright that’s not ok
She’s a teenager. A highly religious teenager who’s entire world view is based around false, overly judgemental, overly religious, under explained crap.
You know, the type that they tell all day long that premarital sex is bad but are also the highest demographic to have premarital sex?
Why is there no slack being cut here in that regard?
You’re right that it’s fine for Dorothy to tell Joyce it’s outright not okay.
It’s not fine for Dorothy to lay out some guilt tripping “I expected better of you” when no, she shouldn’t have, because Joyce is a sheltered CHILD compared to most college students (that’s saying a lot). And Dorothy knows that. And if Dorothy was acting in good faith, she wouldn’t walk away after laying down a guilt bomb.
There’s a huge difference between, “You know this is wrong.” and “You know this is wrong. I expected better of you. You disappoint me.”
That’s acting a lot like Roz.
And justifying her actions with religion! Sure, Joyce,what you’re doing is perfectly okay because the big invisible man in the sky says so…
I think it’s common decency to not chase after someone in a committed relationship.
And I don’t think it’s building someone up to expect common decency, especially in this case where Joyce has both been an example of common decency as well as someone who judged others for their, in her view, lack of morals.
It should be. This thread is making me question whether it is though?
Oh my god THANK YOU! I’ve been waiting for someone in this comic to say it to her face for months!!! Go suck an egg Joyce, maybe go persecute some witches while you’re at it.
Joe did awhile back.
Or at least tried to
From a Sartrean point of view you can have an on and off again relationship with an existential feminist. Too much Nier Automata. Nietzche would say to Joyce to get the fuck out of his sight.
Also, Dorothy is right, Joyce is being as bad as Raidah here. Joyce’s religious bigotry has been substituted with self righteous romanticism.
I should play Nier again.
*cringe* Gawd Joyce. Really not liking you right now. I definitely hope this’ll blow up in her face big time if she doesn’t buy a clue- and soon.
She stopped her homophobia once she realized her best friend is a lesbian and her fake romance with Ethan was harming both of them. To learn that she is doing wrong she has to heard it from someone that matters to her, even more than Dorothy: Jacob hasn’t seen Joyce’s true colors enough to give her “the reason you suck” speech.
It makes me super happy that the alt-text references my favorite comic of all time
It makes me unhappy that Joyce is being a butt
I’ve always felt it’s really skeevy to go after someone in a relationship.
Wow Dorothy you surprised me in good way, we’ll done
Joyce is doing something wrong here.
Dorothy doesn’t have a leg to stand on in this argument considering she had to be -dragged away from her ex because she wanted to bang him after she broke up with him-.
Joyce is being irresponsible.
Dorothy is being a bad friend in how she’s handling this.
Unless Joyce is making the *same* irresponsible decision as Dorothy, I don’t think her own screw-ups prohibit her from pointing out others’.
Should she have muddied her break-up with Walky? No, but that’s unrelated. Should she sit Joyce down and have an involved discussion about this? Yes. Do you know that she won’t just because her immediate response to Joyce’s unapologetic pursuit of this horrible goal is negative? No.
She’s literally walking away. Right now. In the final panel. For no other reason than “You disappoint me”.
She’s acting like Joyce’s parents. Joyce doesn’t live up to her expectations, she doesn’t want to deal with it anymore.
I’d be fine if she wanted to avoid drama, but she’s choosing to call Joyce out and then just walk away without actually dealing with it. That’s not mature. That’s getting in the final word and then noping out.
“Any more” is a pretty strong term. She’s just not up to doing more than point out how awful Joyce is being at this moment, when it was sprung on her.
Is it really fair to expect more? How dare an exhausted woman, still trying to process a break up, not be ready to perform still more emotional labor for someone else on the spot? That’s being immature and a bad friend?
Joyce is being a good friend by calling her out and how can you compare wanting to sleep with your just broken up with boyfriend to wanting to break up a relationship?
Calling someone out is not being a good friend. Calling someone out and then walking away is not being a good friend.
It’s saying, “You suck” to someone who she KNOWS doesn’t really understand or have the life experience to know better and then not offering support.
That’s not being a good friend. In the least. That’s being selfish, getting in the last word, and then being like, “I don’t want to deal with your problem.”
If you don’t want to tangle yourself in drama, fine. But don’t take parting shots to someone you supposedly care about in doing so.
Pointing out a problem doesn’t obligate one to provide a bunch of emotional labour to the person causing it.
Besides, she probably has a class to get to.
I don’t know about you, but if I have a friend, and they’re doing something self-destructive and don’t realize it, it’s really dickish to go “Ya, you’re being stupid and I am disappointed in you” and then just walk away.
It’s the equivalent of making an argument on facebook and then blocking the person so you can’t see how they respond. You’re doing it for your own good, not their’s.
And that’s not what friends do.
no, it’s doing what you can and knowing you can’t do more. it’s called being responsible and self aware.
Thank you, Alice! And it depends on HOW that friend is being self destructive?
Letting your friends do things you think are wrong and/or going to blow up in their faces is being a shitty friend.
If I was doing something bad and all my friend had the time/energy for was telling me that “what you’re doing fucking sucks. I thought you were better than this”, I’d rather they say that than nothing at all.
So if you were a homeschooled kid who had serious issues with one of their parents and religion being overly judgy (and you just realized and are coming to terms with that), someone saying, “You don’t meet my expectations, how dare you, I thought you were better than this?” when her entire religion and family structure up to that point, which is being deconstructed currently, is all about that, would be useful?
Doubtful.
Those words work on someone who has the emotional maturity and experience to understand their weight. Joyce is not that person.
Joyce doesn’t need another person judging her without telling her why.
I’m capable of self-examination, so yeah, it would’ve been. It sure as hell would’ve been more helpful than saying nothing
Joyce might be sheltered and inexperienced, but she’s also a smart kid, and given her response in panel 5, she’s already starting to figure it out.
I wasn’t at Joyce’s age. I pulled a Joyce. It was my fault and I accept full responsibility. I’m just saying, Joyce may realize it deep down, but wishful thinking can beat out repressed truth.
And you’re right, on a scale of something to nothing, something hurtful and judgemental but true always beats out nothing.
But something sincere, uncomfortable, (maybe brutally honest) but true, beats out hurtful and judgmental but true.
I’m not upset about her saying Joyce is on a self destructive path. I’m upset about the intonations of “You disappoint me” especially when used in these connotations .
Okay but Dorothy is the same age as Joyce. She may be more mature and knowledgeable about things than Joyce because of the differences in how they were raised, but they’re both still kids. And it’s not Dorothy’s job to teach Joyce each and every single time Joyce messes up. That’s an extraordinary amount of emotional labor to put on someone, and it doesn’t matter if they’re friends or not. That’s not fair to Dorothy to put it on her to teach Joyce better. And it’s not Dorothy’s fault if Joyce messes up and doesn’t learn. That’s on Joyce.
What branch of Christianity says it’s okay to break up other people’s relationships though? Sheltered or not, Joyce knows she’s doing something that’s wrong.
He’s a (hippie) Christian and she’s a Muslim. They’re obviously unequally yoked.
….. no, I am not making that up.
Joyce’s.
They’re not married, so it’s not yet settled that Jacob and Raidah are what God means to be. Since they might not be, there’s nothing wrong with Joyce stepping in. If God intend Jacob and Joyce to marry, then she’s following God’s will and Jacob will see the truth and leave Raidah.
If not then Joyce will fail to break them up and no harm will be done.
Granted that’s a mix of theology and a lot of influence from bad rom-coms, but it’s what Joyce has got to work with.
Outside her recent challenges to that.
I mean I’m not saying she’s EVIL she’s just in the wrong, here. And even with those influences, I think there’s evidence for her to see that she knows this is messed up and is rationalizing.
American Christians are weird then. I was raised Catholic and nowhere where this considered okay. Heck, the mere idea of “acting on Gods will” feels gross and I don’t even identify as Christian anymore. But like, who am I to know Gods will?
I wouldn’t say “American Christians” – plenty of Catholics in the US, for example, but it’s been clearly established that Joyce’s particular flavor of fundamentalism is seriously weird.
Which, if you missed it, is based on the version Willis grew up with.
How Dorothy handles her own relationship with her ex-boyfriend is irrelevant to the fact that she is condemning Joyce for seeking to disrupt someone else’s relationship.
Treating someone shitty in your own relationship does, in fact, show that you do not have high ground to stand on concerning relationships.
Another difference between Dorothy and Joyce is that Dorothy admitted, to Walky, that she hadn’t been very fair to him. Joyce is still trying to rationalize why what she’s doing isn’t wrong.
And Dorothy rationalized about Walky for dozens of strips. Your point?
What’s the difference here?
Even if Dorothy doesn’t “have the high ground”, it still doesn’t make her condemnation of Joyce wrong.
To quote Billie – “when the pot calls the kettle black, the kettle’s still fucking black.”
No, it doesn’t. Joyce is trying to do something wrong that we can all see will end badly.
But my original point was that all of this makes Dorothy a pretty lousy friend at the moment. Which is allowable, she’s got stuff to do right now… except…. unless she is referring to herself in the “Lots of people are disappointing me these days”, she’s being a bit quick to judge in her state of “you disappoint me” and that’s what bothers me.
It doesn’t bother me that she is being critical. Just how she was being critical.
That.
Her disapproval is as strong as the strongest comment and that’s strange when applied to personal friends.
Who else hasn’t been who she thought they was? And why was that so bad that she now snaps at a friend?
I do agree that her wording wasn’t great. And that other people thing was weird… The only other disappointment I can remember at the moment was Robin? Or maybe I’m mixing things up and the only person to be disappointed then was Leslie?
Or… Maybe she’s thinking of Amber?
Hm, yes, she had a strong case of hero worship going there. In comic, it’s only been a few days.
I just want to re-iterate:
Joyce is doing a bad here. She knows she’s doing a bad. She knows darn well she’s doing a bad.
She’s a hormonal teenager and we ALL know this will end in tears. Horrible, awful tears.
And no, Dorothy doesn’t owe it to her to be the mature person in her life. Dorothy can, and should, prioritize herself.
But she doesn’t get to be the moral high ground role model and completely free of the drama at the same time. She can’t have it all.
To be fair, Joyce had some bad influences, like Sarah, Billie, Becky, all encouraging this line of behavior, in addition to her own warped upbringing. And Raidah is undoubtedly bad for Jacob. Jacob’s a grown ass adult, and no amount of seduction by Joyce could move him if he didn’t want to be moved. Could it blow up in Joyce’s face, yeah, but the same could be said of any relationship. Still, a little bit of self-reflection never hurt nobody.
Yipes she really is after Jacob. Or she’s playing a long con to break him and Raidah up and eventually get Sarah paired up with him.
We’ve known that Joyce has been consciously after Jacob since, in-universe, yesterday afternoon.
Yeah. It’s just hard to believe Joyce is really breaking bad. But it makes sense given her goal has been true love.
It’s just a lot
Wait, which strips of Calvin and Hobbes is she talking about?
Hovertext aside, I believe Joyce is referring to the Christian Calvinist doctrine of predestination – which basically dictates that everything that has happened, will happen, or is happening now was decreed to be by God at the beginning of time, and thus that nothing which ever happens is not “according to His Plan”.
I hate that concept.
I literally read my way through the whole comments section to see if anyone was going to bring this up and I found you here at (currently) the very bottom. Glad someone finally did.
Anyway….
Yeah, if Joyce has to rely on Calvinism, one of the worst, most BS, self-serving philosophies ever created by humans to justify herself… that’s bad. Using Calvinism to justify one’s actions is the philosophical equivalent of using Nazis to win an argument on the internet. Even if it works, you’ve lowered yourself so much that the victory is Pyrrhic at best.
I think we’ve long established that Joyce’s take on religion is seriously fucked up.
I remember explaining predetermination to my friend in English class once (we were at a Catholic school and I learned about some Protestant sects like Calvinism in history). She stared at me and said ‘And this has followers, you say?’
Calvinism is terrible, and nobody likes Calvinists, not even other Calvinists.
(Specifically problematic: a few people are going to heaven, everyone else to hell, and the difference is predetermined before birth.)
Actually, the part I personally find worse is the method by which one can, according to Calvinism, tell who has been predetermined to go to heaven.
It went something like this: If a person is wealthy, then clearly God likes them, and thus they are the ones predetermined for heaven?
The poor? Well, obviously Gods hates them, so they’re going to hell.
I honestly cannot think of a less Christian version of Christianity.
… there is a question mark in there (after heaven) that is not supposed to be there.
Prosperity gospel is a updated version that doesn’t really on theology.
Prosperity gospel is likewise the worst. Woo!
Well that’s fucking stupid.
Including the part right before the flood where God regretted creating humanity. That regret was part of God’s plan all along, even when he was making humanity.
And also the part where the Hebrews worshipped the golden calf while Moses was being given the commandments, and all knowing God was so angry when he found out (despite the fact that it was all in his plan and that he should know everything) that he was going to commit a great evil upon them and wipe out the people he’d just saved from bondage, if it weren’t for the fact that Moses talked him down (which was also part of his plan).
Joyce, you are going to have to come clean with Jacob at some point.
Yep. She can’t keep trampling boundaries and refusing to be upfront to get her way just because she thinks she knows best forever.
…
Well, she CAN but I hope she doesn’t.
No she doesn’t! Someone else can spill the beans for her!
Correction: It’s not stealing a boyfriend if you don’t use rope. And even then, it depends on context.
Wow a lot of arguments on this strip. At the end of the day, regardless of how certain characters are dealing with situations, Joyce should not be trying to get with someone who is already in a relationship. Everything is irrelevant. If it’s a bad, toxic relationship? Sure, try and get him to see that to help HIM out, but not with the purpose of breaking up so you can be with him instead. Just be a good friend.
I glad Joyce was called out on, I’m hoping if Dorothy is against ot, it’ll make her have a serious rethink
Technically, from a Hobbesian view, the conflict between Joyce and Radiah’s self interest should be mediated by the state.
Good point.
“It’s not wrong if it’s meant to be” seems like a good summarisation of Joyce’s morality.
It’s not all bad – that was the conviction that allowed her to take in Becky and deck ToeDad. This time, though…
Ouch, Dotty. I know this is a lot to take in but “I’m not angry I’m disappointed” are the BIG guns.
Joyce: Well at least God is on my side!
God: Whoa, leave Me out of this. I already literally told Moses not to covet thy neighbour’s ass.
Oh, look, it’s the Evangelical Christianity’s favourite sophism: “Whatever I really want is probably God’s will.”
I, too, thought Joyce was better than that.
Is it true that American Christians have this mentality of “If God loves you he gives you lots of money and power and if he doesn’t love you he makes you poor and weak”?
I at times assume that of certain American televangelist yes.
Not all American Christians. Just some of the loudest, most toxic branches of it that collectively form a large chunk of evangelical Christianity. It’s called the “Prosperity Gospel” and it’s basically what every televangelist uses to scam people out of millions upon millions of dollars (Though it’s hardly confined to just televangelists). “Give “the church” money and God will (eventually) bless you with great wealth like they did the pastor and his family! The more you give the more “blessed” you will surely be! And if you haven’t been blessed yet then we guess you just haven’t given enough!”
* “Eventually” may not occur in the earthly realm.
It’s one of the biggest ongoing scams in the US, and people continue to fall for it because they WANT to fall for it. Every time you hear about a Church Leader driving around a Bentley and flying on a Private Jet from their private airfield next to their $30M dollar Mansion, they’re almost certainly a prosperity gospel preacher.
It wouldn’t be too surprising if Joyce’s church is a “Prosperity Gospel” church.
Ah this feels very homely. We have this monk here in Poland who owns his own radio and TV station and keeps asking for donations from elderly people getting richer and richer. Worst of all a right-wing party won the elections recently and now they are giving him taxpayer money too for his support.
Thanks for the explanation.
Her brother John likely is. He was given a Mustang to drive to India
Does the person who gave it to him know that Mustangs don’t float very well?
They call it the prosperity gospel.
The most obvious chunk is called the prosperity gospel, which is all about, get this, giving “seed” money to the preacher in the belief that something good will happen to you as a result of your faith. (Just look at how large said preacher is living in HIS faith if you want proof.) Since god won’t let you down this is a very sound financial policy, so you should max out credit cards and give that money to
the swarmy guy waving a bible as a sales pitchgod, because you’re going to get so much wealth back it’s awesome.That said, this attitude of “your situation shows if god likes or hates you” is hardly unique to the prosperity gospel crowd. A lot of Christianity has a strong undercurrent of “if something bad’s happened to you it’s because you’ve angered god and you’re being punished, so reexamine your life and find a way to blame yourself.” Similarly, good things are god rewarding you. You’ll hear this from a lot of evangelicals, not just the prosperity gospel, and I suspect that a majority of American Christians hold this attitude to some degree or another.
When roughly half our political leadership — the half that’s currently in power — wants to pitch themselves as true-blue Jesus-followers while also embracing laissez-faire, unregulated, no-safety-net capitalism, its politically useful to have a doctrine that says that all the people who become poor or sick are bad people who don’t need a handout or a hand up and can just get out of poverty if they would only love god instead of hating him, so why should the taxpayer be the one to shoulder the cost?
I really wonder how would those people react to learning that there are countries which don’t much care for religion and yet their people live very good lives…
We’re talking the ‘Merica part of America here. They’d have to know about it to react to it.
I admit, I expect my friends to support me even in my wrong choices even if I advise them against them.
And vice versa.
Advise me against them….them me…..*A.I. explodes*
There’s a difference between supporting her and enabling her. This is not the time for the latter, I’d expect my friends if I try some BS like this to call me out and tell me to back away. It’s up to Jacob to decide, not be manipulated by others.
it’s not always easy to pull that off. I don’t think Dorothy’s cutting herself off from Joyce or anything, it feels more like she’s calling Joyce out and telling her she’s out of line.
It’s that whole negotiation thing, walking away is one of the strongest moves available, because the other side wants to draw you back in.
Is Dorothy doing this imperfectly? Probably. She’s, what, 18? Teenagers aren’t known for flawless diplomacy :).
Dorothy’s 19.
That sounds like a bad friend and person.
Well it was nice to see sinning Joyce while it lasted. Now she’s going to regress badly, probably tell Jacob what happened and start crying.
The one thing I really like about Jacob is he’s probably going to sit her down and talk through things with her. No one has ever given his girl realistic boundaries. I believe Jacob has realized just how damaged she is and going to step up here to be a friend she needs.
Dorothy really needed to approach this differently.
…the fuck? Dorothy is approaching this right.
She’s not calling her a Bongo or a harlot or a painted jezebel or anything like that. She’s saying that Joyce should be better than this.
And Jacob? Look, until Joyce comes clean with him about her motives, anything that happens between Joyce and Jacob is tainted by her attempt to sabotage his relationship with Raidah for her benefit.
Joyce had three options here: Let Jacob be with Raidah until that relationship resolved however it may, let Jacob know she’d reeaaaaaaally like to bone him but respects his relationship with Raidah, or attempt to sabotage his relationship with Raidah and get him to want to bone her, not Raidah.
She chose the latter.
Joyce needs to learn from this, she needs to grow from this… but it can’t come from Jacob, he’s just too close to all this shit. Of all the chars in the comic, it’s Dorothy, Sarah or maaaaaaybe Sal that could get it through to her.
Don’t think Sarah will be able to do it, because she was the one who set Joyce up for this, so Joyce could easily turn it back onto her if confronted
🙁
Dorothy is heartbroken and that makes the whole situation from funny/hijinks/intrigued to just sad.
Sometimes, I remember that, even though Joyce has had a literal gun pointed at her by a fellow attendee of her own church, she’s still been brainwashed AF since birth.
This isn’t her upbringing at work. This is her romantic side at work.
Joyce’s warped expression of romance is a result of her upbringing though.
Since when has Joyce been studying advanced philosophy like this.
That said… Yeah, saw this coming. I suspect that this is going to be a crossroads for Joyce and Dorothy’s friendship and I can’t see anything going unchanged.
Assuming her church has Calvinistic traits, probably since she was about 6.
Christianity, in general, has a lot of the “God’s plan for you” and that can include your relationships and who you marry. This is especially true of more conservative and more Creationist strains.
Plus, Joyce is in an Evangelical church, which has been embracing of Calvinism in recent decades at least.
Joyce is punchable lately
Dorothy, you are the last person (in this comic strip anyway) who should be judgemental about relationships given you gloriously craptacular record. Maybe if you weren’t such a self centered jerk, you could have nipped this in the buf earlier.
(Yo be fair, as much as I think Raidah sucks, Joyce is being a stinker, but seriously Dorothy is far from anyone to judge)
’cause that’s totes Dorothy’s responsibility, to stop Joyce from being a homewrecker.
If Dorothy paid attention, this could have beeen prevented before this point.
It’s not her job to keep Joyce out of trouble and she only realized what’s up between her and Jacob recently. Also Dorothy Does have moral high-ground over Joyce here. While her relationships with Danny and Walky were a bit of a mess she never Stole anybody’s boyfriend
Dotty has just about zero interaction with Jacob and this is the first time she’s seen them together like this.
Yeah, she picked up on it in about 5 minutes of seeing the two of them together and called Joyce out on it the first time she had the chance.
Despite being frazzled from overwork and distraught from her own relationship ending.
Why is this on Dorothy, though? Joyce has already been told this is wrong by Joe, multiple times. Joyce has the knowledge that what she’s doing is wrong, but she’s choosing to ignore it.
This isn’t Dorothy’s fault, and it’s not on Dorothy to make sure Joyce learns her lesson every time she fucks up.
Woof, so many responses. OK here goes.
1) It isn’t Dorothy’s job to keep an eye on Joyce this is true, but a conversation now and then probably given her an idea what was going on and Dorothy could have said this was a bad idea before it got out of hand,
2) Considering Dorothy’s dating history and her indecisiveness, I gotta disagree she has any high ground on this, because what Joyce is doing is pretty much what she has done, potentially ruining lives.
3)Yeah… like anyone would really listen to Joe on any moral stance.
Now to be fair, I kinda think all three of these girls suck, though for different reasons, so my opinions might be a bit biased. Don’t take anything I say too seriously.
2) No, it’s nottttttttttttttttttttttttt. Whatever issues you may point out in Dorothy’s past relationships (there are certainly plenty), she never attempted to break a couple up to get into them.
I respectfully disagree. ^_^ While the methods are different, the results are similar, lives ruined because of irresponsibility. Good news though, it is only temporary. (something they also share)
Neither Danny nor Walky’s lives were ruined because Dorothy broke up with them, regardless of how Walky seems to be spiraling right now. While, yes, he is in emotional turmoil because of his relationship with Dorothy, there are other factors, such as him failing his classes. But, his life isn’t ruined. It’s been maybe a few weeks.
Since the break up? I think it was yesterday. They went on pause the day before.
@thejeff time is fake and fleeting, i have no idea how long it’s been for any of these stories
Danny recovered pretty quickly from the break up and Walky has MUCH bigger problems than just losing Dotty, his school is a much bigger stress source for him.
I’m not at all sure that’s true.
But then it really is the next day. Gotta give him a little time to recover.
1) Again, other people have full knowledge of the situation and by this logic, it should be on them to tell Joyce this is wrong, not Dorothy who did not know until this very moment because she was busy and did not have time to hang out. Sarah, Joe, Becky, and Billie all know what Joyce is doing, and the only one who has said anything about it is Joe. Instead of blaming Dorothy for not nipping this in the bud, blame the three who encouraged it from the beginning.
The fact that you are still focusing on Dorothy being the reason this is still going on and not the fact that three of Joyce’s other friends have pushed and encouraged her to do this is very telling, and it’s gross.
2) Yeah, still gonna say Dorothy has never ruined lives by breaking up with someone. And there’s still a difference between breaking up with someone in a shitty way and trying to break up a relationship because you want in. Add to the fact that Dorothy wasn’t intending to hurt anyone but still stumbled along the way, meanwhile Joyce doesn’t care because it’s “all okay if it’s for true love!”… it’s completely different situations.
3) Joe’s opinion has mattered to Joyce to the past. It still matters. The only reason she switched from trying to hype Sarah up to going after Jacob herself is because Joe inadvertently convinced her that she had a chance. If Joe’s opinion didn’t matter to Joyce, she wouldn’t have been texting him the entire time she was at her parents’ house with Becky. Now, yes, Joe’s track record shows that normally people wouldn’t listen to him, but he managed to get under both Sarah and Joyce’s skin at different points. They know he’s right, they just don’t care.
I might be wrong but Joyce never told Dorothy Anything about her plans regarding Jacob and Dorothy was very busy recently, not to mention all the stress she’s been under. Dorothy has her own life to take care of, she is Joyce’s friend, not a caretaker or overseer. She is not responsible for knowing everything about Joyce’s life and policing her behaviour. As the final pam said your complains should be aimed at the people who knew but did nothing, or worse, enabled and encouraged Joyce.
Guys, don’t take anything I say really seriously, while I might dislike these three turds and I remain unconvinced, you guys aren’t wrong and have every right to feel the way you do.
Doesn’t have much to do with feelings, friends aren’t responsible for how you behave, that’s on you. In this case, on Joyce. Dorothy’s not her Mom.
So Joyce is fully aware of what she’s doing. Interesting.
…fucking huzzah, a character in-story is calling Joyce out on her bullshit.
No, Joyce wasn’t innocently flirting. She knew what she was doing. You can argue all you want about how Joyce has no need to respect Raidah, but the biggest problem here is that JOYCE ISN’T RESPECTING JACOB.
Jacob has presented himself in a happy relationship, he clearly isn’t looking for other romantic options and isn’t making himself available on that front, and Joyce is disregarding that by explicitly, BY THE TEXT OF THE FUCKING COMIC, trying to “steal a boyfriend”.
Joyce is the “Nice Guy”, with Eiffel Tower sized air-quotes around that word. She’s in the wrong. Stop defending her fucking actions here.
……..I do believe Joyce is a good person, BTW. Good people fuck up, good people do awful things, good people don’t get things are fucked up sometimes. What Dorothy’s doing here is good, she’s not calling Joyce evil or anything, she’s just saying…
…well, that Joyce should be better. Because she should, because we’ve seen her be a better person, and it’s a goddamn shame that she’s doing this because she’s capable of so much better.
In response to your first sentence
Joe has been doing that the entire time.
I agree that Joyce is not respecting Jacob here, and that it’s shitty towards him. (And I think she’d better stop this right now, if she wants to stay friends with him.)
However, people were already wailing about how terrible Sarah and Joyce were when Joyce had done nothing but hang out with Jacob as friends, not even entertaining the thought of more. And Sarah never had the power of breaking up anybody; it’s Jacob’s decision.
Before this last meeting or so, I really don’t think Joyce was doing anything wrong.
The argument I see that it’s okay for Joyce to try getting between Jacob’s relationship seems to hinge on the idea that Jacob has the power to say no.
But people can and do have the power to manipulate other people. It is entirely a possible scenario that this course of action leads to manipulating Jacob into doing something he doesn’t want, will regret, and will affect him negatively.
That, and people who feel that it’s okay to ignore an implicit “no” often also find ways to mentally skirt around an explicit “no”.
Geez, it seems weird for Dorothy to be incredibly judgemental
There’s a few factors at play here.
Dorothy’s generally a pretty ethical character. She also has very little of the context of what’s going on here, particularly how this began. Lastly, she holds Joyce to a pretty high standard. Maybe not the comically high standard that Joyce holds Dorothy to, but she has seen Joyce demonstrate a lot of moral integrity and courage, so this is a side of Joyce she hasn’t been privy to.
I love you Dorothy.
I still don’t really have a problem with what Joyce has done so far. I have a big problem with her justification of it.
What she’s done so far is being a bit flirty, but she is far from going heavy on him. She’s not even suggestive to him or leads the conversations to romance. She hasn’t said an ill word about Raidah nor has she tried to butt into their relationship to find something she can use to put doubt in Jacob’s mind that he should leave her. So yeah, she’s sniffing around him but she is far from attempting to break them up.
I had a friend of mine that heavily implied to my fiance that she would be up for the sex acts I didn’t want to do that my fiance liked, I think she invited him to go lingerie shopping “because she didn’t have any female friends that had the time” and she wrote in her secret blog (that someone sent me the link to) about how she wished he’d dump me already.
I mean, Joyce is barely even trying so far. She’s hoping that Jacob will fall in love with her, in an extremely passive approach. She could easily plant a seed in his mind that two ambitious people might not make the best relationship if he wants a family, where she, who wants to be a housewife, could commit to him reaching even further. Or lead the conversations to find new arguments.
I do have a problem with Joyce justifying herself with that it’s ok if it’s true love. When can she decide if it’s true love? How far is it ok to go for true love? How many times can she use that as an argument, if she decides after Jacob that she would find someone better? I mean she was pretty sure on both Joe and Ethan…
It’s a messed up argument. Just frickin own that you would like him to break up with Raidah to be with you and that that’s complicated and a selfish desire. (And of course, stop. She can still be the person she is with Jacob because they have great chemistry but she should stop aiming at breaking them up for her own benefit)
Reading through the comments section, I wanna point out that Dorothy has been at ultimate stress levels for the past few days, perhaps even week, in-universe. Putting her relationship with Walky aside, she’s also burnt out, saw a man get sliced to hell, struggling with her studies… She is in no place to be holding Joyce’s hand like some people are expecting. And keep in mind that she has tried to broach subjects with Joyce before (such as http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/vacuum/ ) only to be shut down kinda harshly? Dorothy is Joyce’s friend, not her teacher. She’s within her rights to point out how questionable Joyce’s actions are.
Keep in mind as well, that Dorothy was invited to this lunch which we saw, wasn’t exactly the friendly happy time it was supposed to be. Because Raidah was invited, and Joyce has this scheme, lunch seemed to become the two trading potshots as Dorothy freaked out on the sidelines. She doesn’t have unreasonable expectations for Joyce. If anything, she’s making up for keeping mum about Ethan (which she didn’t know about til it resolved itself). Joyce’s actions are undeniably gross. And she seemed to expect praise from Dorothy for it. Also, friends disagree. Friends piss each other off and disappoint each other. Does this suck right now? Yeah. Does this mean the friendship is over? No, but Dorothy obviously needs space now and wanted to be the one person to point out that trying to break Jacob and Raidah up is wrong. This is a messy, ugly situation. And I think we commenters need to start taking deep breathes. This is getting more heated than I thought it’d be.
Firstly: I didn’t give Joyce enough credit yesterday. I didn’t think she could flirt that well intentionally. I was wrong.
Popular opinion time: Joyce’s justification for her actions is shitty here. She should be honest that she’s sexually attracted to Jacob, and should quit using True Love as an excuse to behave in ways inconsistent with her own morality.
Unpopular opinion time: I think Joyce (and most people) would disagree here, but IMO, Joyce has no duty to preserve Raidah and Jacob’s relationship. I’d rather she be more frank and straightforward about her intentions, but that said she’s being about as frank and straightforward as she can be without coming out and saying, “Jacob, I like you and would like to go out.” She’s not exactly being subtle here. Joyce does not have a duty to sacrifice her wants in favor of Jacob and Raidah’s relationship. There is nothing wrong in my book with wanting a relationship with someone who is already in a relationship, or trying to pursue that person up until they reject you. Continuing to pursue after your advances have been rejected is obviously wrong, but throwing up an “I’m interested” flag to see if someone will accept the quest line isn’t wrong. I think it’s kind of foolish if you’re ostensibly into monogamy like Joyce is (someone who’s looking for greener grass while in an existing relationship, and who has a pattern of that behavior – Jacob’s “crazy jealous exes” were neither crazy nor jealous, they were upset with him flirting and encouraging other women, I am guessing – is not going to change that pattern of behavior just because they’re in a relationship with you). But I don’t think it’s morally wrong.
The people who have a duty to Jacob and Raidah’s relationship are Jacob and Raidah. Nobody else. Certainly the women around Jacob shouldn’t be expected to insulate him from all temptation. He’s a grown-ass adult – if he wants monogamy, it’s on him to actually be monogamous.
Of all the people in this situation, Jacob is the one in the wrong, because Jacob is the one not fulfilling his social contract with Raidah. He encourages and participates in Joyce’s flirtation. And no, he’s not oblivious to it. This is not the face of obliviousness:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/commune/
What Jacob is oblivious to is the fact that Raidah has caught on to the situation, not the fact that Joyce is flirting.
Why does everyone seem content to let him off the hook here? To blame Joyce pre-emptively for any relationship trouble this causes Jacob?
Sexism, that’s why – people are blaming Joyce for the eventual ruination of Jacob’s relationship, and are completely missing the fact that Jacob, not Joyce, is the one with the duty to act in defense of his emotional and social commitments. Jacob could be, and should be, shutting this shit down if he wants a monogamous relationship. Instead, he’s stringing Joyce along.
If the relationship fails, it’s gonna be Jacob’s fault, not Joyce’s.
And for the record, I’m a serial monogamist. And I’ve been the Raidah in such a situation, where the relationship did fail. And yeah, it sucked. And I’ve been the Raidah in a situation where it didn’t fail. And I’ve never been the Joyce, so it’s not like I’m defending my own past behavior here. It’s just that frankly, if the relationship can’t survive someone else flirting with my SO, it’s not a healthy relationship in the first place, for one, and for two, if my SO cheats on me with a third party, that’s on my SO. An outsider to the relationship has no responsibility to the relationship, whereas my SO would.
And to be extra clear: I don’t think Jacob’s a bad person. In fact, I think he’d be good for Joyce. But the fact is he’s made a commitment to Raidah by agreeing to be her monogamous boyfriend, and he claims to want a serious, monogamous relationship. If he fails to hold up his end of that commitment, as it seems likely he’s going to, that will be on him.
Drawing an analogy to a workplace: A friend of mine can tempt me to skip work and go hang out with them all they want, but if I make the decision to go along with it and get fired, that’s on me.
Dude I would be equally as disgusted if Joyce were a dude pulling this stunt. It’s shitty. It’s manipulative and deceitful and disrespectful of Jacob’s pretty clearly stated desires. Jacob can’t string Joyce along because she’s a fucking weasel who hasn’t told him she’s interested. There is no reason to assume Jacob sees his interactions with Joyce as anything but playful banter between two friends because he has clearly stated he’s in a monogamous relationship that he is happy with.
He’s been checking her out (see the linked strip above), making excuses to show her his body (and get her to show him her body), and making veiled sexual jokes at her. That’s flirting.
Jacob has responsibility to his relationship, and he’s not upholding it.
And yeah, Joyce isn’t being completely straightforward, but neither is she being subtle. Literally everyone who has seen them interact has picked up on what Joyce is doing (in Dorothy’s case, within a few minutes), but you think it’s going over Jacob’s head? That beggars belief. He’d have to be even less socially savvy than Dina, and there’s no evidence of that.
Literally nothing Jacob has done or said would make a reasonable person assume that his expressed desires are suddenly invalid. At best you have flimsy implications.
Wait a minute, when has Jacob ever showed off his body? Only time I can think about is when Joyce walked in on him and Joe at the gym. And the only thing he did there that could be “showing her his body” was to continue exercising…
And when has he made her show off hers? I really wanna see the link to the strips for this claim
“There is nothing wrong in my book with wanting a relationship with someone who is already in a relationship, or trying to pursue that person up until they reject you. ”
But isn’t being in a closed monogamous relationship basically giving an implicit advance rejection to anyone that might want to pursue you when you’re in the relationship? So shouldn’t Joyce, at the very least, respect that and leave Jacob alone?
Don’t you usually wait at least three months before treating anyone’s relationship as “maybe permanent”? Like when a relationship is fresh, i.e. after the first few dates, at lot of ships run to ground because infatuation wears off, sex doesn’t work out, you find you are incompatible in certain aspects, … If you treat all that stuff as “love of someone’s life” instead of the try and error they are, you increase the heartbreak for no good reason at all.
Of course if you expect it run aground early on, then just sit back and wait to see it die. No great loss. No need to get into a big challenge rivalry with the current partner.
Either way, whether it is the “love of their life” or not, just don’t try to mess with it.
Do your friends appreciate your treating their budding relationships as full-blown relationships? As in, you as their friend who takes an interest in their lives? I actually hate it if people start taking someone in my life for granted before I do.
They appreciate me not attempting to seduce their new girlfriends. I don’t start planning their weddings or naming their inevitable children though.
Not sure what you think I do.
It seems to me a lot of people in the comments are acting as if they were friends who are already planning the weeding for Jacob and Raidah.
There is no one saying hey, look, there is someone else interested in Jacob, I wonder what he will do with this?
It’s all about high morals, not about finding out what you want, what’s real.
I don’t see much difference to Joyce’s “true love” idea. The word used is just “monogamous relationship” but that’s invested with all the same trappings.
That’s you reading into it. Not what people are saying. Or at least not what I’m saying.
The way for Jacob to find out whether he actually wants Raidah in the long term is to be with Raidah and see how it works out, not to have her face off with a series of challengers.
I mean, I said in the post before you asked that: “sit back and wait to see it die”? Does that really sound like I’m calling it “true love”? If it works, it works, so you shouldn’t have messed with it. If it doesn’t, you’ll have your chance when it ends.
I still think the pizza thought bubble makes it pretty clear that Jacob is not only unaware of Raidah catching, but that there’s anything to catch on to. This piles on top of plenty of other evidence, including him letting Raidah know so she could join them in the first place.
Which doesn’t mean he isn’t reacting to Joyce’s flirting and flirting back. He’s just not doing so consciously. He’s the one doing the unintentional flirting you though Joyce was doing.
In Jacob’s defence, it WAS a really sexy slice of pizza. It cared about what HE wanted, for one. “Would you like pepperoni on me, Jacob?”
I would be right there with you if Jacob hadn’t checked Joyce out when she went to the bathroom. I’ll grant it’s a possibility, but I don’t think it’s super likely.
OTOH, even if he is flirting unconsciously, him being a flirt and flirting with any pretty girl who flirts at him, probably has a hell of a lot to do with his previous “crazy jealous” exes being “crazy jealous.”
That’s pretty much my theory. This is Jacob’s character flaw, which is good cause he needed one.
if Joyce bit her lip any harder she’d need stitches
Calvin and Hobbes reference in the hidden text, ….life complete!
Getting Star Wars vibes from this panel.
“From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!”
“Well then you are lost!”
Epic Dorothy vs Joyce lightsaber duel incoming?
That would explain all the concern here about whether Dorothy has the high ground…
Of course, Joyce isn’t really aware that her attraction is part physical. It’s warping her judgment. But I’m kinda siding with Joyce here. While I don’t believe in some god that can intend for two specific people to be together, it’s important to be happy. It matters if you enjoy the company of your significant other. And Jacob/Raidah aren’t married.
Arthur C Clarke used to say “Any teacher who can be replaced by a computer should be.” By analogy if Joyce can win Jacob’s affections with a little light flirting, Raidah is taking the relationship for granted. Jacob is a kind person and Raidah, well maybe isn’t so kind.
So, you know, maybe we could use the heat from this thread as renewable energy, heat a grade school or something?
Panel two Joyce’s expression is as giddy as I’ve ever seen. Great job, Willis.
Oh yes. That is an exceptionally adorable Joyce in panel two!
I’m just worried that Dorothy might be about to cut Joyce off as a friend, and isolate herself further.
Regardless of who is in the right or wrong about all this, that would hurt to watch!
Oh, Joyce, Joyce, Joyce.
No matter how much you think of it, even the Bible stood against it.
Poor, misguided, lustful child.
All of the awfulness of Joyce’s ploy aside, her panic in panel 3 at the thought of Dorothy disapproving of her True Love brought a smile to my face.
Dotty is not my favourite person (Re: Danny)
But she’s got this one spot on.
Because she broke up with him?
Sincere question because I can’t recall them interacting a whole lot after she starting dating Walky.
Possibly because before breaking up with him, she didn’t and instead strung him along as she moved to college hoping he’d guess she wanted to break up with him. It stems from one of Dorothy’s two problems: that she thinks avoiding confrontations is always for the best. We’ll see how this comes along, if her OTHER problem doesn’t do her in narratively first.
Pretty much it.
That and the “I love you… but…”
I’m firmly on Dorothy’s side in regard to this situation (though as someone with a similar upbringing to Joyce, I totally understand why she’s like this), but you gotta admit, that Joyce smile in the second panel is the cutest thing ever drawn.
Joyce is like that kid who’s so proud of the new karate move he just learned that he didn’t think about how his little brother would feel about getting kicked in the chest.
This comment should have gone on yesterdays’s strip but:
Raidah’s thing with appearances kind of puts a new perspective on the situation with Dana.
I don’t have anything to say about Joyce other than the obvious: She should just tell him she likes him. This pissing match has a good chance of escalating if it goes on and even if it doesn’t, Jacob is unlikely to appreciate that Joyce engaged in a bunch of passive aggressive back and forth with his girlfriend instead of just talking to him.
Needed to be said, but it still aches a little.
Who else is Dorothy referring to in panel 4?
You ended up a relationship of years and hooked up with the first male that wasn’t him as soon as you were available, and now you’re taking the moral high ground??????
I’m sorry sister but people with glass houses shouldn’t be throwing stones…
And you can’t “steal” another persons partner, no matter what you do, if they split it haves nothing to do with Joyce, and everything to do with what Jacob wants, isn’t Jacob a grown man that can make his own decisions???? all is fair in love and war.
There is no glass house here. Dorothy HAS them, but they’re not relevant to here. She ended a relationship and then started another relationship with someone who was single and was demonstrably interested. Relationships aren’t entitled to mourning periods.
“mourning periods”
I like that
what if the mourning period hasn’t even started but he’s finding someone else attractive?
Not relevant to what I was aiming, she did the exact same thing, but thinks Joyce is morally wrong because Jacob is still in a relationship whereas she ended hers, I see no difference on what Dorothy did from what Joyce wants, “mourning period” doesn’t apply to either
So, reading through this thread, yours seems to be a popular opinions: that there is nothing at all wrong with hitting on someone else’s partner.
And definitely not compared to choosing to end a relationship that isn’t working for you, or starting one with someone available, or not indulging a friend in behavior you disapprove of, all of which seem benign to me.
It’s…really outside my experience. Like, most people I know consider it at the least a major faux pas to try and split up a friend’s relationship. Are things really so different elsewhere?
I do think that the way a lot of people in this forum have looked at this in the past (before Joyce was consciously trying to do anything, she was just getting along well with Jacob) denied Jacob all agency in a way that seems really insulting to him.
Even now, Joyce cannot break him and Raidah up, at least not as long as she doesn’t start lying (e.g. telling lies about Raidah to Jacob or something like that). It is entirely in Raidah’s and Jacob’s hand to decide how to continue their relationship. If Jacob does not like any of Joyce’s behaviour, he’s free to tell her, or to stop seeing her at any point. And Raidah is free to tell Jacob that she doesn’t like Joyce’s behaviour — or Jacob’s, if she thinks Jacob himself is harming their relationship.
Now, I’m not saying that Joyce actively trying to break them up is good beaviour (and as I argued above, trying is all she can do) — but before the last few strips, she was not doing that.
I don’t fault Joyce for wanting to get together with Jacob, though.
If she was honest and had the best for Jacob in mind (instead of just the best for herself), either she’d continue just being good friends with Jacob without angling for more until he might become available, or she’d honestly tell him right now that she has a crush on him and would like to try a relationship. With that on the table, Jacob would be able to have an honest choice and give his opinion (which would presumably be negative at this point). I would see nothing morally wrong with that at all.
To add to this: I do hope Joyce stops being this shitty towards Jacob (presumably unconsciously — it’s no excuse, but I don’t think how shitty this is towards him) before she ruins their friendship.
Jacob is one of my favourite characters and I want him to stay a major part of the story.
*she realises
she hasn’t being “shitty” towards Jacob, she’s never stopped being herself this whole time, she was shitty towards Radiah, but that’s entirely because of her friendship with Sara, a very distinct reason and separated (but that also aligns) regarding Jacob
There’s a difference between something socially discouraged and something morally wrong. Definitely I recognize that trying to flirt with someone in a relationship is socially discouraged. I don’t think it’s morally wrong, because to me, the person who has a duty to the relationship is the person in the relationship. Flirting is non-verbal communication – and the person in the relationship doesn’t have to reciprocate. The entire situation screeches to a halt the second Jacob stiffens and asks Joyce what the heck she’s doing in a disapproving tone, or otherwise responds in a way that discourages her advances.
My question to you: How and why is it Joyce’s responsibility to preserve Jacob’s relationship and not Jacob’s?
If you like someone, you can show interest, if the other person doesn’t like that he can chose to stop it at any given time
and let’s be honest here, Joyce isn’t really “hitting on” Jacob, she’s being her neurotic self
the passive aggressiveness isn’t related to that, it’s related to Sara, a very different and distinct relation that aligns with wanting Jacob
” if the other person doesn’t like that he can chose to stop it at any given time”
Except it’s not that simple. There’s a whole Captain Awkward post right now (with genders reversed) about how difficult this is and how weird people get when you try to shut down their plausibly-deniable flirting.
I doubt Joyce would get anywhere near the uglier ends of that shit, but she’s still doing the plausible deniability thing. Plus Jacob is too oblivious to even realize it’s happening.
so tell me this, is it flirting if he doesn’t notice?????
Oh he’s noticing. And responding.
He’s just not consciously aware of it as flirting.
as I recall Calvinism became popular during the early point of the industrial revolution because it was an excuse to not bother with charity or working to improve working conditions in factories.
This is a lot of fuss when Jacob’s only expressed interest in Joyce is wanting to see her picture Bible. I’m interested in that part of her life too, but then I read Answers in Genesis for fun. It’s always good for a hearty laugh.
I actually really hate that Joyce smile in the second panel. It’s so unbearably smug and I’m so glad Dorothy’s reality check wiped it off her face.
Oh, I’m not the only one, then. I kept seeing comments saying how cute it was, and I was like “Uh, what?”
So Dorothy broke up with Walky then had Joyce harangue her in the toilet, Joyce demanded her time and then for lunch put Dorothy in the middle of some major drama
I got to say that considering the stress Dorothy is currently under she handled this situation a lot than better then I would have
She probably won’t be president but she will definitely be successful
I think it’s really weird that a bunch of people are defending Joyce in this, but when Mike throws casual makeouts at Ethan to fuck with the Ethan/Danny possibilities, everyone realizes that he’s being a bad person.
Both Joyce and Mike are prioritizing their own feelings/desires over the feelings of a third person.
Plenty of people defend Mike on the grounds of “I’m sure he’s really falling for Ethan” or “He’s doing it make them get together” or some such nonsense.
OTOH, I would say he’s actually worse, since he’s doing it deliberately to hurt them.
Joyce is being selfish. Mike is being mean.
You are comparing two things that are not comparable:
Mike plays with Ethan to manipulate Danny. Ethan doesn’t have a chance to know what Mike is aiming at.
Joyce has fallen for Jacob. If J doesn’t want her to make passes at him, it’s his job to indicate he’s not interested. He hasn’t done that. And if he’s oblivious to her passes, it’s time he learns to notice, else there will always be inexplicably jealous lovers.
If you don’t prioritize your own feelings and desires, no one will. And where does that get you?
Always prioritizing other people’s feelings over your own, ends up with you as a footmat. There will always be people having hurt feelings when you wasn’t something they do not want. The more manipulate ones will let you know in exhausting detail about their feelings to get what they want.
Everyone is entitled to their feelings. You are and they are. But when you make decisions, base them on who you want to be, what you think is right for you in this situation. Not ony anyone’s supposed feelings. Not even your own.
“. If J doesn’t want her to make passes at him, it’s his job to indicate he’s not interested.”
You mean apart from being in a committed, monogamous relationship? Surely thats indication enoughh
” And if he’s oblivious to her passes, it’s time he learns to notice, else there will always be inexplicably jealous lovers.”
Yeah he should but how? Its beginning to look like previous girlfriends may have tried to tell him but he may have brushed it off as jealousy on the girlfriends part
At this point, I’d say the safest way would be a third party cluing him in. Maybe Joe.
I suspect he’ll actually find out when it all blows up in his face, with him dumping Raidah because of something nasty she does to Joyce and then Joyce crowing about winning him.
On one hand i hope it doesn’t end up like that but on the other hand…drama!
I’m pretty sure it’s going to end up something like that. It’s been made pretty clear that Raidah’s a piece of work and she’s just going to get nastier until Jacob’s safe from Joyce. She’s not going to be allowed to win and keep him.
OTOH, it’s also been made pretty clear that Joyce shouldn’t be going after him. She needs to learn a lesson about boundaries and such, so she’s not going to win and get him. (She might get to date him for a bit, after Raidah shows her true colors and before he finds out Joyce actually was after him all along.)
Team JacobxPizza!
Personal opinions, I can’t remember if I wrote this before:
1) Joyce’s behavior, intentionally flirting with a person in a committed relationship, is bad behavior. I would not enjoy seeing her do it as a real person.
2) As a reader, I’ve enjoyed watching it happen. It can be cute and I trust that Willis will punish them for whatever ends up working, if anything, since Willis is mean enough to his characters when they’re being /nice/.
And now as a reader, I’m happily sinking back to my Joe/Joyce ship (though maybe It’s Walky! is also giving me those feels… But nah, DoA is my first love, Willis-wise)
This helped me recontextualize what she said to Jason at Gallasso’s. Not that I’d have been surprised by her saying ‘unless it’s true love!’ earlier on, but it helps explain why she’d feel the need to add it onto her talk with an ex TA