Dorothy is being a crappy friend here. She would object if Joyce had tried to enforce her moral objection to premarital hankie pankie on her using guilt and yet here she is trying to enforce her moral principles on Joyce using guilt as a tool. I expected better from Dorothy and I expected more respect for Jacob’s right to choose. Joyce is not the one trying to manipulate Jacob. She’s just trying to be an attractive version of herself around him. Dorothy should withhold her intolerance until Joyce actually does something wrong.
She was withholding her “viewpoint ” until Joyce asked, then she said her peace and walked away. Joyce then ran after her and Dorothy was then prompted to speak further. Dorothy isn’t being intolerant, she doesn’t like what she’s seeing and only speaking her mind when asked.
While Joyce is not (yet?) using manipulative tactics, she intends more than just being “an attractive version of herself around him.”
She is clearly vieing with Raidah for Jacob. She herself says it’s only not “stealing her boyfriend” because she believes God means it to be. Now she’s trying to blame it on Raidah being mean. Even Joyce thinks she’s doing wrong, which is why she’s got excuses for why it’s okay.
I get that there’s a strong contingent here who think that hitting on people in relationships is perfectly fine as long as your methods aren’t too nasty in themselves, but you’ve got to accept that a lot of other people here don’t agree. And it that it has nothing to do with “respect for his right to choose” or his agency or whatever it is you think we’re talking about.
It’s also getting clearer and clearer that the narrative of the comic is coming down on the side of “Joyce isn’t doing the right thing here,” so I’d suggest bracing yourself for that.
Nicely said! I appreciate your ability to talk to the “other side” with respect and with a statement that may be useful to them.
One possible narrative arc here is: Yes it’s crappy, but good people are crappy sometimes, and life goes on. It might be the start of Joyce realizing that she’s not going to hell if she “sins.” I don’t think that would fully satisfy either side, but it would be a pretty important lesson.
Aye, but you could also argue that Dorothy expected Joyce to come after her. It’s that whole thing with business negotiations, the strongest and simplest move in the book is to walk away, and make the other person come after you.
Saint Dorothy, eh? Yeah, all she did was say that the friend who adores her isn’t who she thought she was, and is indeed a worse person that she’d imagined, and then turned away.
Because Joyce did what every person who walks away after a single lecturing line to their best friend always hopes will happen – she followed Dorothy and asked to talk some more.
Still, I get the feeling Becky is a lot better equipped to help Joyce through this than Dorothy is.
Exactly. Any problems that come up, Becky will be advising Joyce with Joyce’s best interests in mind rather than trying to make Joyce care about something she clearly doesn’t. It’ll be about Jacob getting sad, Jacob’s life getting messed up, Jacob feeling guilty as hell, things which Joyce would care about but clearly hasn’t thought through.
“You’re better than this” might work if you’re both on the same moral page to begin with. Dorothy is clearly not. Even more talk from Joe if he could get into the reasons for why this might be a bad idea would be better than Dorothy’s angle.
Except Becky’s actually on the same page with Joyce and also not thinking about the things Joyce clearly hasn’t thought through. She’d be all about improving Joyce’s flirting technique so that she’s more successful and suggesting subtle ways to tear Raidah down.
Might as well go to Billie for advice.
Becky isn’t thinking about it now because she, unlike Dorothy, doesn’t see any inherent moral problem with what Joyce is doing. That’s why she would be more helpful to Joyce in thinking things through.
I said help Joyce through this, not stop her. Though Becky might well convince Joyce to stop and see what she’s doing too once the consequences on Jacob’s life starts coming up.
Dammit, I forgot about that. (And I think Dorothy did, too.) Joyce has been doing better, lately (making it across several different outdoor trips on her own), so it’s easy to forget that she could have an anxiety relapse any time. Okay, yeah, bad Dorothy for walking away like that–at least without saying, “Go inside, let Becky walk you back today,” which would’ve at least addressed the problem.
Pretty sure they were being sarcastic. As in, Becky whose treated Dorothy in a similar way that Raidah’s treated Joyce might not be that great of a neutral party to help Joyce see the error of how she’s acting.
I’m sure that helps, but Joyce has gone off at great length about his looks – his strong arms and all that.
He’s been referenced by many in the comic as physically attractive.
Strong arms are also an excellent reason – not to mention very sexy.
As to Joyce – while her current comment is about his physical appearance, Joyce was also physically attracted to Joe and we saw how that turned out. While she might be using shallow phrasing, it is clear from her reaction to Jacob over time that it isn’t only his looks that have her, as Becky put it, “horny”.
It’s pretty clear they’re a major factor. Not the only one certainly, but she’s spent a lot of time focused on them. Especially while she was still theoretically helping Sarah.
Yes, but you won’t know any of that by just seeing him. I’d agree if Joyce had spoken about Dorothy having met him, instead of having seen him. This is an argument about his looks.
My gods, can you imagine the drama possibilities, though? Becky goes all vengeful and starts sharpening knives; Dina, forced to confront Becky’s ‘true love’ goes hard-core Goth, doing bad poetry about dinosaur heartbreak; Mike, deciding that this group doesn’t actually NEED his help to be miserable, gets on a bus to Portland?
Didn’t she? She broke up with Walky because she believed it was unfair to keep him in a relationship that she couldn’t participate in. Letting him go was the best way to love him.
It kind of partly was. It was at least partly because she realized the pause and relapse was shitty to him. I can’t be reeling you in and pushing you away constantly and “This hasn’t been very fair to you, has it?” in the previous strip.
Without that bit of revelation, she might have kept him on the line longer, tried another pause, “for real this time.” Of course, she’s still tempted to reel him back in.
The distraction thing was definitely a large part of it as well, of course. It’s all part of what she’s going to need to work through.
That Joyce is being selfish, objectifying and lying to herself about it so that she can feel like the “good guy”. Like she said yesterday, Joyce should be better than this.
Dina acts oddly. First blush casual interactions can lead to blunt, surface-level observations. Raidah was a bit of an ass, but hardly that far outside the bell curve.
Oh, that was Joyce who said that. All this time I’ve been blaming Sarah. So yeah, she’s really not much better than Raidah when it comes to being ableist with Dina.
Here is hoping that Dorothy can stop this before it goes any further, otherwise fingers crossed that a harsh lesson is comings for Joyce. Raidah still needs her own epiphany and/or comeuppance, sometimes those things go hand in hand, but we’ll have to wait several weeks for that knowing how time works in DoA.
Raidah needs to learn several lessons about life- she’s no closer to perfect than anyone else in the series- but it would be seriously undermining the arc for Joyce here to partially validate her behavior by hammer Raidah over her shortcomings rn imo.
I don’t think it would necessarily undermine the arc for Raidah to be called on her own poor behaviour, but A) It depends how. Raidah needs to be told to knock it off when she’s being condescending or elitist. Joyce needs something drastic to happen because otherwise she’s not getting it. B) If/when Raidah is called on some of her behaviour, I don’t want it to have ANYTHING to do with Joyce. I want Joyce 24601 miles away from it, especially if whatever happens also ends Raidah/Jacob.
Those were my thoughts exactly, Joyce has no reason to even be a part of Raidah’s learning lesson. Joyce is learning the lesson from a friend(hopefully) or she’ll figure it out when she screws up. Raidah should have the same opportunity, her biggest issue at the moment is the way she treats Jacob and her vitriolic condescension. Hopefully Raidah and Jacob will talk though, as King Daniel pointed out above, that is probably several months not weeks out.
Well the main reason any consequences for Raidah are likely to be related to Joyce is that Joyce is a main character and Raidah isn’t. Jacob isn’t even a main character.
I strongly doubt the two of them are going to get their own plot arc where Raidah gets called on something else she’s doing.
Honestly, I wouldn’t even mind if it had something to do with Sarah or she was called on it because she was being a jerk to a different main character. I just really don’t like the idea of it being Joyce because I have a distinct impression Joyce will take that to validate her own crappy behaviour this arc.
That ship has pretty much sailed, I’m afraid. Unless Raidah comes out of this storyline smelling like a rose, which I strongly doubt.
I do hope that Joyce’s own consequences and likely rejection by Jacob over it will be sufficient she won’t be able to validate herself by Raidah also going down.
was wouldn’t mind if being regarding Joyce if it’s Jacob seeing how Rajesh treats people like joyce. I.e. Education majors and teachers, people she doesn’t regard as being on the same level as herself and jacob.
– The Harrison meeting goes terribly, for reasons that could potentially be Joyce-adjacent but are still mostly a hole Raidah digs for herself.
– Joyce is fairly quick to renew flirting after she finds out, Jacob is sad, Joyce is ‘but she was Wrong for you!’ and Jacob realizes she’s been flirting for a while or something. Cue Joyce getting a reality lesson.
-Like, Ethan (who was completely unaware and uninvolved in this whole thing,) agrees that all that shit was fucked. Danny comes in playing the ukulele, sees A Sad, and gives Jacob a heart-to-heart about thinking the only way to succeed is One a Specific Path and measuring up to your more-impressive siblings and how Danny is now at peace with himself once he realized he had to do what makes him happy for him. Then they all go to the comics store. Maybe there’s a metaphor about different ways to be heroes. Anyway friendship and maybe helping keep Jacob from feeling like he has to be Harrison 2: Electric Boogaloo.
– And later after sufficient space has been given and Joyce reflects on her actions, she sees Jacob and gives a heartfelt apology.
– Meanwhile maybe he’s met someone who’s not checklist-perfect, but has plans of her own and complements him in different ways and Joyce respects this relationship and they can all be friends, maybe. (Near as I recall Jacob’s straight. Don’t actually ship him with anyone currently in-comic, but there’s a lot of background characters and even more Currently Nameless, Faceless Students.)
I’d actually be really into Ethan and Danny befriending Jacob lmao and Danny and Jacob bonding over expectations placed on them by others and choosing to go the path that would make them happier would be really neat
It’d be great, right? Ethan and Jacob are already roommates too, so it is possible.
(Now, I do think Jacob probably does genuinely want to be in law, but there’s a lot of different ways to be a lawyer without carbon copying your brother and still help people.)
I apologize if I’m spoiling a joke; but you can’t get 24601 miles away from somewhere on the surface of the Earth, because it’s circumference is only 24901 miles around the equator, and 24812 miles through the poles. So…if Joyce started traveling south from Bloomington, and traveled for 24601 mi, she would end up just 211 miles north of Bloomington, which would be pretty close to her hometown of La Porte. Coincidence? I think not!
A comparison between the adults and the adolescents in this comic offers little reason to hope that people tend to improve as they mature in the Dumbiverse.
She called Dina “[someone who] acts and looks like she’s, y’know, twelve“ at the dorm party. Dina is turning 19 in a couple of weeks in-universe, which makes her older than at least half of the cast.
To be fair, Joyce was correct. Dina does look and act like she’s 12. (Or did at the time. She’s put effort into social skills and changed a bunch since then – partly due to dating Becky.)
It’s been a running thing. Including Dina herself bonding with an actual 12 year old, Riley, before realizing they weren’t the same age.
Okay, but you don’t SAY that. Especially not right in front of her and as justification as to why nobody should be sexually or romantically interested in her.
To Sarah? Off the top of my head, when she accused Sarah of wanting to get rid of Becky “just like Dana”, during the run-up to the dorm party. To Dina, see my comment above.
True, she did do some rather mean things to Sarah and Dina. But, she recognized her mistakes (well Dina helped set her straight in one case) and since then has been decent to both of them.
This is a little different than Raidaih, who is rather eliteist and petty, doesn’t recognize her mistakes, and doesn’t change her behavior.
She didn’t exactly apologize about the age comment but she did apologize (in a vague way “I’m so sorry” with no mention of what for because she got interrupted) after Dina kissed Becky and asserted that she’s not a child. Otherwise, she and Dina just plain don’t get along because of eeevilution. In fact, Joyce using Dina as an example here is strange because I don’t remember Dina telling her that she disliked Raidah. Maybe she heard from Becky.
As far as Joyce knows, the extent of Raidah’s “mean-ness to Sarah” goes as far as strongly disliking her for getting Dana expelled. Bar the dorm party, the only interaction between Raidah and Sarah which Joyce has been present for was at the mall – when Sarah punched Raidah.
Semantics – Dana is no longer in college due to Sarah’s actions, and it’s been implied since that Dana’s home situation isn’t exactly what one would call ideal.
Pointing out that Dana was withdrawn rather than expelled isn’t semantics. Dana being expelled means she’s not coming back without difficulty and would probably seriously negatively impact her chances of getting into another school. Being withdrawn doesn’t carry quite the same academic or disciplinary implications and she can always explain a withdrawal as ‘I went home when my mom died because I wasn’t in a place to continue at school’. Most admissions officers would accept that. Saying ‘I got kicked out because I smoked weed in the dorms in clear violation of both school rules and the law at the time’ would probably get a different reaction.
That said, you’re absolutely correct that Dana’s home situation has been throwing up yellow and red flags all over the place.
Everyone keeps saying this and like the only flag of any kind is her father pulling her out of school except that’s not even reasonable because she was in a drug and grief fueled depressive spiral that was seriously affecting her well being and there’s literally no reason to think his reasons weren’t entirely out of concern for her happiness and safety and ensuring she got the help she clearly needed.
I think Raidah’s made some comments about Dana not doing well at home that could be taken that way. Except that a) Raidah was making them to blame Sarah further and b) Raidah’s not really a great witness here, considering she thought Dana was fine.
I dug through all of Raidah’s appearances and I’m pretty sure I found what you’re referring to the “Dana is in a better place” “Not according to Dana last I checked” exchange which I guess could be interpreted that way but yeah A) Raidah isn’t exactly a reliable source and B) it could just as likely be Dana isn’t dealing well with not being able to just repress her problems with copious drug use.
I believe other signs people were worried about were things like Dana never really talking about her dad, as opposed to her mom.
Plus the whole situation parallels pretty well to Carla and Billie/Ruth, which did have messier consequences Carla didn’t see coming. We don’t know for sure if Dana’s gone a bad way yet, but I can see why people are concerned about it.
That’s fair but people act like it’s a given rather than just a possibility. Like, maybe she’s just not super close with her dad for totally non-sinister reasons like many many people because of how men often get a pass on child rearing and thus don’t bond with their children to the same degree mothers do.
At least on my campus, you could totally have a medical withdrawal for severe depression, which Dana clearly had going on. Some campuses do have a minimum period before you can come back of a year or something, but I think it tends to depend on the reason and sufficient demonstrable recovery. … wait we could maybe see Dana back in this strip as a student potentially.
As to the red flags – the biggest one that sticks out to me is that Dana went away to college while her mom was clearly terminally ill and came back immediately after the funeral. Maybe her mom was only diagnosed/relapsed after they committed to IU and was like ‘Don’t let my sickness impact your life’ or Dana thought she could handle it all, but still that is… A Thing, for sure.
Joyce saw Raidah gonout of her way to insult Sarah and warn her, Joyce, away from her. How much more do you have to see to know Raidah is bullying Sarah?
Oh man are the fanbase about to get sledgehammered with the revelation that people they choose to dislike because they’re in opposition to characters they’re led to empathize with aren’t like, any less intrinsically people and may be deserving of exactly as much love and tolerance of imperfection as the people they projected themselves onto?
I can’t speak for others in this fanbase, but the reason I prefer Joyce over Raidah is because despite all her wacky beliefs Joyce generally tries to be a kind person overall. Meanwhile in most of strips I’ve seen Raidah in she’s been a condescending jerk. Maybe it’s just that the fanbase prefers kind people to jerks.
Oh, but those supporters see him as a fundamentally helpful and therefore kind person wrapped up in a jerky exterior. (ie jerk with a heart of gold). With Mike, if you squint, you can sorta see why people might think of him as helpful. Though with Raidaj, not so mucj
I am so fucking angry that this fanbase is willing to give that insufferable white prick a pass but Roz is the devil for hurting Joyce’s feelings once.
Yeah, a lot of the characters have lots of surges of disproportionate hate. I believe Willis once said the top five were Ruth, Becky, Carla, Dorothy and Sal, though from what I’ve seen I’d say Amber and Roz would be up there too.
Oh, I don’t know. Every villain that comes along there’s a large chunk of the fanbase that all about excusing their “imperfections” until it becomes too blatantly obvious to deny.
That Joyce is in the wrong here doesn’t mean that Raidah’s a good person. “imperfections” or not.
Really, Raidah’s just kind of a mediocre person. She’s got some gross attitudes and she’s super vindictive but she also seems to be really loyal to her friends (to a fault) and she does seem to be perfectly nice to people she doesn’t hate for example her first meeting with Joyce where she’s totally friendly until Sarah punches her in the face (which she even gives her a pass on).
Or you know, she just isn’t a nice person. It’s possible.
There really are only a couple of strips that might not show her in a bad light and even those are questionable. Maybe she really is all sweetness and light when not dealing with Sarah or Joyce, but reading her that way is a stretch.
She’s got those gross class issues. She’s got her condescension to Dina. She’s got some serious warning signs in her interactions with Jacob.
Call it protagonist bias if you want, but what we’ve seen of her is what Willis has chosen to present.
The high point of my opinion of her came in that sequence where she met Joe and Jacob after their lunch with Sarah and Joyce, where Jacob and Joyce first started to hit it off. She put down Joe for the list, said she trusted Jacob with Joyce and (hah!) Sarah and talked about how she wasn’t like those other jealous girls he knew.
Sadly she’s undermined that little speech with her active moves to secure Jacob’s affections from the threat of Joyce. Which now makes me think that it was all bullshit from the start – what she thought he wanted to hear in order to keep him attached to her.
I mean her first encounter with Joyce she was totally friendly and nice. Then Sarah showed up and punched her in the face which she was far more forgiving of then she had any reason to be.
Also, I suspect her point was that she wasn’t irrationally jealous not that she never experiences jealousy even when it is the completely reasonable response. For example, when someone is actively trying to break up her relationship and then puts on a bullshit facade of niceness to her face.
Then she should talk to Jacob about it, rather than playing stupid mind games. Or ditch him, if she doesn’t trust him.
And Joyce hasn’t really put on a bullshit facade of niceness to her face. Not more than Raidah has. Not enough that either of them are fooled. (Jacob’s oblivious, of course.)
Just gonna drop this friendly reminder that raidah lead a year long harassment campaign against someone, told them to die in her first appearance and has consistently after elitist and condescending. It’s almost as if :0 we have legitimate reasons for disliking her!
Either way I’ll hate who I wanna hate, good reasons or not and I look forward to her getting called out on her bullshit
Joyce, this has nothing to do with atheistic moral relativity and John Calvin’s predestination. This is about you choosing to do evil against evil people for selfish reasons that you try to justify, and that will eventually hurt good people as collateral damage.
Oh there it is the smoking gun, this argument is over. Full honesty even though I like the dynamic of Jacob and Joyce I still can’t say there’s nothing wrong this because there obviously is.
We’re getting shades of the old “Roomies” Joyce here and that version of her was so damn obnoxious. Boy crazy, manipulative, a mindset that she was entitled to a relationship. As much as a lot of us want them to hook up is it really worth this, seeing what Joyce is becoming?
Probably the thing I like least about this storyline. I think they’d make a really interesting couple to explore. It would also be interesting to see Joyce deal with the very physical nature of this attraction.
But the set up pretty much guarantees it’s not to be. Which is interesting character development in its own right, of course.
It’s interesting that Dorothy is focusing on the Joyce trying to steal Raidah’s boyfriend vs Joyce attempting to subvert Jacob.
It’s like even she doesn’t acknowledge how Joyce is trying to ignore his agency in choosing to be with Raidah.
But, this conversation isn’t finished. Maybe she’ll get around to it.
Well in her defence this is all happening rather quickly so its not like shes had a chance to sit down, gather her thoughts and work out which is the worst of Joyces transgressions
I’m hoping that she will bring it up later. No one is perfect. We know Dorothy’s no perfect. But there are very few people who are treating Jacob as someone who can make his own decisions right now, and I’d like her to be one of them.
They are similar, but not the same thing, so addressing one does not address the other.
And since she’s in the process of admonishing Joyce, it would be disappointing if the only thing that seemed to matter was how Raidah was being treated vs how Jacob was being treated.
Plus as has been mentionned before, the “Jacob’s agency” argument cuts both ways. He definitely has a right to choose monogamy with Raidah – but can he choose where there is no choice ?
“I can resist everything except temptation”, so to speak. You cannot choose to resist temptation and therefore affirm your will to be monogamous if you’re not offered something else.
To the same extent that Joyce had a choice to send her parents to hell and go become a fighter pilot, but was unaware of that choice.
He already made the choice by being with Raidah over being single or being in an open relationship.
So now acting as if his decision is faulty or doesn’t matter since Joyce has not chosen him is arrogant at best and insulting at worst.
So really, by attempting to seduce him, I’m really only doing him (and his girlfriend) the service of allowing him to prove his loyalty. I’m doing a good deed here.
Nah, I don’t think so.
Yeah, Jacob should resist the temptation. That’s doesn’t mean it’s okay for Joyce to offer it.
Consider the temptation analogy of bribing a government official: We don’t just make it illegal for the official to accept bribes, but for someone to offer them as well. Why, if the official has the agency to refuse?
Everyone falling in love should have someone else around who is also interested in them. That way, they can really choose to be with one, the other or none. They can see who treats them with respect in which area, who is occasionally condescending or aggressive,…
Having someone around to compare allows you to question yourself what you really want.
That’s silly.
Just having other people around that you yourself find attractive, but choosing to be with one person, either by asking them out or being asked out, has already verified that you made a choice of what you really want as you didn’t have to invite/accept their invitation. Even if there was no one else you found atteactive, you made the choice that you didn’t want to be single and that the person you’re with was acceptable.
There’s no need to have people come on to you while you’re in the middle of a relationship to some how give your choice validity.
Likewise, another person isn’t necessary to notice that your s/o doesn’t treat you well and/or has bad behavior, especially since you can’t gurantee the other person wouldn’t also have the same or different bad behavior.
That is so foreign to me. I mean it would be great to have multiple people falling for me at once, but I’m actually connecting with someone, I don’t need to have someone else to reject to validate that choice.
I’ve had people hitting on me when I was involved. It wasn’t some great oppotunity to reevaluate my choices or anything, it was just weird and awkward.
There really is some deep comprehension gap here. I wonder if it’s a generational thing? Or just different people with starkly different attitudes.
The central thing seems to be people’s response to knowing that someone else has said, “I’ve chosen to be happy with person X”. One camp says, if you hear someone say that “I’ve chosen to be happy with person X”, you should just stop considering changing that, or presenting your friend with anything that might change their mind.
But wouldn’t you agree that it’s silly to arbitrarily respect someone saying, “I’ve chosen to be happy with just K”, with K not a person? “I’ve chosen to be happy with just playing video games…” “…with just eating chicken, but I dislike turkey…” “…with just being an arse to people…” “…with just this flavor of Christianity…” Don’t these sound inherently silly? Indeed, this comic itself at so many points has been about how critical it is to help your friends challenge themselves when they say things like this.
So what ultimately I don’t understand is what suddenly makes it so imperative to some to unquestioningly respect another’s assertion that they’re happy with just X when X is a person instead of a thing? Are they not underestimating their own potential for change?
Are you not aware of how much hate Mormons get for showing up on people’s doorsteps trying to convert people to their religion? I don’t think I’ve even heard anything about that religion besides the jokes and complaints about that.
If someone considers it silly to respect my choice in partner and considers it to be a favor to me to introduce someone else to me or even try to put themselves into consideration by flirting with me all the while hoping I break up with my significant other, that is neither a favor I want nor a person I wish to know.
If you can’t respect a person or their relationships, or think that it’s in any way comparable to fucking eating chicken lmao I don’t know what to tell you
And no, in any case, I do not think it’s silly to respect what people have told me about their preferences. I have a friend that has told me that she doesn’t like eating cheese. Not because of any lactose problems or anything, she just doesn’t like it. I don’t try to offer her different kinds of cheese just in case “[she] might like this one.” I respect her choice because I like and respect her as a person.
Another thing: there’s a huge difference in introducing something like tabletop games to someone who exclusively plays video games, and trying to set up your friend who is already in a relationship on a date with a complete stranger. One’s a hobby, the other one is a personal relationship with physical and emotional ties from all parties. It’s a matter of respect for your friend, more than anything. There is nothing lost by your friend trying out new hobbies. There is something lost, however, by inserting yourself in a romantic relationship you have no place in.
Trying out new hobbies also doesn’t usually involve quitting the old hobby first. You can have multiple hobbies at once. Thus again being unlike a monogamous romantic relationship. (nothing wrong with poly, but still not a thing you should push onto a couple that haven’t shown interest.)
I think early on Ethan tried to pull Amber away from the video games, but that’s because she seemed to be neglecting everything else to play them and he wasn’t trying to get her to drop them entirely and replace them with his hobby.
That’s also a good point. With material things like food or hobbies, it’s usually never a one-or-the-other scenario, which something like choosing a significant partner typically is. Even if some or all parties involved were polygamous, that still doesn’t mean that it would work out, particularly if two parties were not compatible in any way. So, it would typically involve a choice between either of the partners, or even neither of them. Which, like you said, isn’t really comparable at all to hobbies.
Yes, that’s how I feel about it – respecting people’s choices is important to me.
Some of my friends don’t drink simply because they don’t like alcohol. But people (including me once, oops) still ask them to try various drinks that “don’t taste like alcohol”. It ranges from obnoxious to funny – the funniest I remember being the person who thought they’d like straight whiskey (or maybe it was tequila).
Often humans find it hard to believe anyone could simply not want X, and their responses get more and more bizarre as the cognitive dissonance grows. (And then there’s things like sexuality where it gets horrific instead. Ugh)
Yeah. I don’t like beer. Tastes nasty to me. Wine too. Pretty much anything fermented. No problem with hard alcohol though.
Back in college and shortly thereafter I had a lot of friends who were beer snobs – into the various craft beers that were starting to get big back then. They kept trying to get my to try their new favorites – “This is really good, you just haven’t had good beer before.”
I finally started telling them the closer it was to the perfect beer, the less I’d like it. I could drink the cheap mass produced stuff, since it wasn’t much like beer. 🙂
OTOH, it’s also true that people’s tastes often change over time and sometimes a little push to try something new or something you didn’t use to like isn’t a bad thing. But then that’s for relatively minor things. Less serious than relationships.
Why is respecting people’s harmless choices so alien to you? My mom doesn’t eat seafood but I don’t try to change her mind about it because who cares it’s her life why would I interject my opinions into a decision she has made that hurts nobody in any way. It’s just arrogant to assume you know someone’s mind better than they do.
I also don’t remember when the comic ever made a point of challenging people’s food choices lmao Like, everyone respects Joyce’s thing with food as much as they can
It’s the ‘little’ things like the bigotry and harmful biases and toxic behaviors that get challenged in the story, not someone’s decision to play video games.
Honestly? Because I think peoples’ harmless choices lead to aggregate human cluelessness that is at the root of so much of what sucks in this world. So many people fail to grow in so many ways because they have sought nothing, for lack of imagination of what to seek.
I used mostly things and hobbies to try to show a point that was mainly about ideas. Like you said, Emily, chicken or seafood doesn’t really matter. But when someone’s assertion is about worldviews and friendships and fulfillment, don’t you think such an idea would be more worthwhile for a friend to challenge, not lesst? While the stakes are still low?
The inertia associated with being in a relationship is so strong that I would consider it important for friends to help each other jostle themselves out of relationships, on presumption. That’s why I think marriage is as reasonable a point as it can be to draw that awkward line in the sand, for that presumption to change. At the time when you make the kinds of commitments that are difficult and costly to disentangle, you signal to your friends that you are no longer interested in the operating premises of your life being challenged or subverted. If you have a problem, any solution you are seeking is to be respectful of your relationship with your spouse. You change from asking to be disrupted in your relationships to being supported in the one you have chosen. It makes sense at that point, and not before.
Yes, I’m arguing that given that Joyce is interested in Jacob, and wants to be a good friend to him, and thinks she has a shot, then she absolutely -SHOULD- try her best. And she is doing that. The fact that she was started on this by Sarah’s pointless spite (and yes, Sarah has been utterly despicable and not respectful of Joyce or Jacob or Raidah at all in this matter) doesn’t really matter.
Remember, these people are just entering college. For someone in that position to say that they are trying be happy in a monogamous relationship with X is -entirely- premature. Isn’t this the whole darn point? Joyce’s infatuation with Jacob is exactly as silly and shallow as Jacob trying to pursue a “monogamous” relationship with Raidah. They’re both premature.
I wish I could remember what led me to stop believing “but people’s lives would be so much better if they’d only listen to my advice” because it sounds like that’s what you believe too.
And here I am, wanting to give you advice about how it’s not actually that great to push your advice on people. Lol.
But if people want to be challenged on every little decision, there’s nothing stopping them from forming a club for that, right? Then it’d just be the people who actually want to live that way. The people who thrive on it instead of finding it exhausting, irritating and/or disrespectful.
I am not asking or interested, nor will I ever be interested for my friends to challenge my relationship with my significant other. If I enter into a relationship with someone, I would hope that people that I consider to be my friends would respect me and my relationship and not try to ‘jostle’ anything, because they think they know better for me. If they think that I’m in a bad relationship and that I can do better? They can have an honest conversation with me like adults do. What they can never do is try to break up that relationship on their own, either by introducing someone to flirt with either one of us or by doing the deed themselves. That is disrespectful to me, to my significant other, and to my relationship both with my partner and with my friend.
And I don’t think that I need to be on the verge of getting married for something rather important like this to be respected by my friends. Do better by your friends.
Oh. It was probably about the time I started seriously learning about boundaries. Maybe it was something in the book I read that changed my perspective.
Of course, first I had to have a bunch of experience in the downsides of *not* having boundaries before I could push past my bizarre (possibly learnt?) discomfort with the concept.
I’d say it’s pretty silly and maybe even offensive to compare something as personal as a relationship to eating habits or hobbies or whatever. People aren’t things. That’s the root of sin, as Granny Weatherwax would say.
The other big difference there is that “just”. Joyce isn’t trying to expose Jacob to some wider world of choice – she’s trying to get him to be with just her, instead of just Raidah. To abuse the food analogy further, that’s not like someone trying to get you to give turkey a try, that’s someone trying to get you to stop eating chicken entirely and switch to only turkey. And not out of real concern for you, but because they benefit from you eating turkey all the time (not really how to fit that into the analogy.)
Beyond that, I’d say this comic has never been about “how critical it is to help your friends challenge themselves when they say things like this.” It’s really hard for me to think of any examples. Could you pose a few?
There are a few exceptions, but they’re only when the behavior is toxic or damaging, one way or another. Joe’s list and general behavior would be one example there. No one’s been lauded for trying to break anyone up. There’s been very little of anyone trying to get someone else to change religions – Mary’s pushed her religious views on people, but she’s an outright villain. Joyce has done the same, but it’s presented as a bad thing she’s been overcoming. A few have been very, very gingerly nudging Joyce away from her church, but there we’re back to toxic again.
There are Joyce’s food hangups, but again her friends have done nothing more than tease her about them, while antagonists like John and Raidah have tried to use them against her. Joyce, more than anyone else, has talked about trying to change there.
Because nobody is subverting Jacob’s agency. Seducing someone without saying explicitly that you’re doing so doesn’t violate their ability to choose for themselves. Gaining someone’s friendship and flirting them wouldn’t either. The intentions behind Joyce’s actions have no bearing on Jacob’s ability to choose for himself.
I didn’t say she subverted his agency, I said she ATTEMPTED to subvert his agency.
Her plan is to make the choice for him, first by replacing Raidah with Sarah and now by replacing Raifah with herself.
Best case scenario, she’s doing what she thinks is right for Jacob.
Worst case, she’s doesn’t care what’s right for Jacob.
Either way, she’s ignoring what Jacob has said he wanted, which is to be monogamous with Raidah.
Her actively wanting and trying to end his relationship with his chosen so without consideration for his feelings is ATTEMPTING to subvert his agency. Does matter that he, in reality, has a choice. In fact, his actual agency will probably be what makes this whole situation blow up in her face.
She’s seducing him. It will still be Jacob’s choice, to the extent love can be a choice, if he falls for Joyce. Jacob’s agency does not depend on Joyce’s success or failure.
As far as personal agency goes, this is no different than Apple trying to seduce someone away from Android by putting their sleek, distinctive brand out there. The consequences will be way different, of course. But the person being seduced would still be the one with the choice.
Again, I never said she could take away his agency. I said she’s ignoring it. Whether she succeeds or fails doesn’t change the fact that she’s ignoring it.
If you want to compare this to cellphones (Inahc is right, that’s a bit weird), it wouldn’t be as simple as Apple making new phones while you have an android. That’s because Jacob knows Apple phones exist already (just like he knows other women exist and that Joyce exists). The point point is he’s not in the market for a new cellphone which is why he can ignore that Apple just put something new out.
This would be closer to someone seeing you on an android and hearing you talk about how happy you are with your android phone and that you don’t intend to get a new phone, let alone switch brands, and then, while obstenibly having a nice fun outing with you, start describing features on the iPhone the android doesn’t have in order to get you to switch.
And having done a bit of that with Linux when I was a teenager (and seen others do the same with assorted software), I can tell you, it doesn’t work, and it’s obnoxious as fuck. What sometimes works is waiting until someone is pissed off at their broken windows PC and then going “well, if you want to give Linux a try I could install it for you” 😉 (but that can be done obnoxiously too. *Facepalm*)
And if you somehow managed to convince me to switch to Apple, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with what you did. You’d probably fail and be annoying as hell and if I told you to stop and you didn’t we’d have a real problem. But if you managed not to annoy me then you’d have successfully and fairly convinced me to switch.
One can also flirt without intent. Or seduce by other means.
If seduction is only immediate lead up to actual sex, then we need another term to cover getting someone to fall for you and want a romantic relationship.
I really don’t get this agency argument that keeps being brought up. Honestly I think it’s insulting to Jacob because it implies he can’t say no and has to be with either Raidah or Joyce. He can totally say no and be with neither, he can choose to leave Raidah for Joyce, or he can choose to stay with Raidah. No one is taking away his agency
I think it’s symptomatic of the big divide here about whether it okay to hit on people in relationships at all.
Those who think it’s fine are using the “agency” argument as the only possible reason those who don’t could have a problem with it – and then shooting it down as a bad argument.
Someone brought up temptation elsewhere today and I think that’s a better approach. Sure, Jacob is capable of resisting temptation and it’s his own fault if he doesn’t, but at the same time Joyce shouldn’t be dangling the temptation in front of him. Everyone has agency, everyone gets choices. Responsibility isn’t tied only to one person in any given situation.
The agency argument, at least for me, is that Joyce is teying to force a choice he didn’t ask for.
It’s still his choice, but since you know he’s objectively doing what he wants, saying “screw that! You didn’t know what you wanted until I put myself in your path.” is messed up.
I feel like tacos. Well I bought you hamburgers so forget the tacos.
I want to go to Hawaii. Here’s a ticket to Paris.
I think I’ll major in architecture. If you major in finance, I’ll guarantee you a job.
In all those scenarios, a person can say no, so they still have a choice. But the fact that their original plan is being ignored, regardless of how nice the other option appears, can be annoying.
And then, when you consider that this choice isn’t about food or a vacation or a major, but about a woman he’s involved with, committed to, and may possibly be falling in love with (just throwing that out there because committed relationships often involve love sooner or later if they last and not be use Jacob as indicated love in any way), the idea that another option is being thrown out there when he has already decided who he wants then, IMO, becomes insulting.
The general consensus seems to be that Sarah’s using Joyce to split up a seemingly-happy couple is evil: no real upside, with everyone likely to get hurt. Is that what Dorothy’s objecting to? Or is it that Joyce is now in it for herself? And is the latter REALLY all that different from, say, advertising a new cellphone to someone already in a satisfying relationship with a slightly-older one?
As for Jacob’s agency in the matter, he seems quite oblivious to any attempted subversion of it. What’s his story? Is he just naive? Ace? Gay? Unsure? Born female? 15? On steroids? So obsessed with living up to his brother’s achievements to have time for sex? Some of those possibilities might have Joyce discovering “that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting,” illogical as that may sound.
I find something insulting about scheming against someone who views you as a friend. That the scheme is about getting him to switch significant others doesn’t change the fact that it’s a scheme.
Dorothy is, as far as I know, unaware of Sarah’s plan to use Joyce to break them up. She objected, way back at the party to Sarah wanting to break them up at all.
She’s only now (at this lunch) become aware there’s anything going on with Joyce and Jacob and is objecting on the grounds that Jacob’s in a relationship.
And yes I do think it is different, though there’s a sizable contingent here who think it’s perfectly fine, for reasons I don’t understand. I’ve mostly given up trying to explain why I think it is. There just seems to be a fundamental difference of opinion – one likely not breachable by logic or explanation.
I think Jacob’s mostly just oblivious. Not naive, exactly, just one of those guys who finds it hard to tell when someone’s hitting on him, despite responding to it. He’s complained to Raidah about past jealous girlfriends and I suspect this might be something of a pattern with him – close flirty friendships with girls with obvious crushes on him.
I’m still confused about how changing his mind would be a loss of agency.
In your examples, it would be like saying that if you decide that you hadn’t thought about Paris but it sounds like a better plan after all, you lose your agency. It’s weird to me. Changing your mind is not a loss of agency, whether it’s because of new elements or reconsidering old ones.
What Joyce is doing can be considered very wrong for all sorts of reasons – because it’s going to end in tears for everyone, because it goes against her own morals, because she’s using love as a excuse for lust, because she’s rationalizing it as love when it’s actually half-lust half spite, etc.
But really I can’t see where she’s taking his agency from him.
His agency isn’t lost if he changes his mind.
His agency isn’t being taken away from him.
Read my comments again.
I never said that, at least not in this thread nor, I don’t think, anywhere else (maybe other people have).
I DID say she was ATTEMPTING to SUBVERT his agency.
Jacob’s agency is being ignored. His choice of gf is being ignored. His decision to be with Raidah is being ignored. Choose whichever sentence makes more sense to you because they’re all the point I’m trying to make.
Regardless, it’s not ok to do that simply because Raidah is bad or Joyce is nice.
“I’ve made my choice.” “Well I just want to give you another one.”
“I didn’t ask for another choice.” “Well just think about this other choice, anyway. I think you’ll like it better.”
“Do you think I don’t know there are other choices available? I found the one I want.” “I’m sure you think so, but if you look at this choice from a different angle, you might realize that this particular one is better.”
No matter how nice the new option is or how politely it is offered, it’s still annoying, bordering on rude and insulting to keep offering it after he made his position known.
Yes, he can tell Joyce no, has the agency to make that choice, but why should he have to? He shouldn’t be put in the position to do so, and the only reason he potentially will be is because Joyce is ignoring what he said he wanted.
I think I see what you’re saying better now indeed. Part of my confusion comes from using agency differently (I think at least, from what I read).
For me it means being able to make your own choices; for you there seems to also be the idea that no one should question them. Did I understand correctly?
I do agree that offering alternatives after you’ve stated a position can be annoying, although I’m not convinced it *has* to be, or that it’s wrong per se.
There’s still something I’m struggling with though.
DISCLAIMER, cause we all know things can get heated over details when communicating in writing 🙂 :
-you seemed to imply I said Raidah’s not nice and Joyce is and that justifies things – I did not.
-the following questions are generalizing the issue; they do not imply anything as to the state of things Jacob
Here Jacob has made a choice that is not dangerous for himself (please don’t get tangled in detail about whether Raidah will be wrong for him, I’m just saying being with her is as good a choice as any) ;
if he had made a choice that could be considered a “bad” one – not in the moral sense but as in “bad for him”, like using meth or going on a crash diet that were potentially harmful, would you still consider it wrong to try to subvert is agency (‘Hey, what about therapy’ or ‘Maybe take in a few nutrients?’) ?
It’s a candid question; I’d like to know whether you consider agency to be sacro-sanct, or whether you think it should have limits (even beyond the usually agreed ones that “your freedom stops where mine begins”).
Because what disturbs me is that if you don’t say anything, you’re letting your friend down; if you do you’re “subverting their agency”.
What is the justification? That their decision comes from them being in a bad place at a given time? What if it comes form them being mentally ill? Shouldn’t mentally ill people have the exact same right to freedom as everybody else?
And then there’s yet another issue, which is that all we know of Jacob’s decision to be with Raidah is that he made it at some point in the past.
There’s plenty of people who stay in relationships because it’s easier (NOT saying it’s the case here).
Hence the other question: can we assume that anyone *in* a long-term situation (here a relationship but really anything else works – a job, living in a given city, studying to become a doctor) is actually choosing it, and not going with the flow?
(Again, general question. Jacob can’t have been with Raidah for more than a couple of months? Since he’s a freshman. So it doesn’t entirely apply to the situation. I’m just getting interested in philosophical reasoning)
“Agency” isn’t the word I’d use to describe any of this, but:
I think there’s a huge difference between trying to break up a couple because you want one of them and trying to break up a couple because you’ve got good reason to think it’s abusive or otherwise actively bad for one of them. The same applies to pretty much any choices, with some kind of balance between how serious the choice is (romantic partner is pretty serious, where to go for lunch not so much) and how bad it looks.
I guess you could assume any long-term relationship is just “going with the flow”, but at the same time we also tend to assume a long-term relationship is a more serious one. Working off that argument we could assume trying to break up a 30 year marriage is less problematic than a brand new couple on their first dates. Which doesn’t seem right.
Like everything, there are no absolutes. It’s all a balance of priorities. Not mucking with other people’s relationships without good reasons is generally a good idea though.
Yep. I guess my problem is that I’m forever trying to reconcile theory and practice and that life isn’t really self-consistent. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Sorry for the late reply.
I feel like the more I try to explain myself, the less clear things become.
You ask am I saying never question a person’s choice? No.
First there are no absolutes.
Second, I wouldn’t mind if Joyce straight up stated her intentions and let him respond…once. I would take issue with repeated antics.
I don’t even mind the idea of Jacob cheating. I’ve cheated and been cheated on and have been involved with women who cheated with me on someone else. I feel relationships where someone cheats have to do with issues between the partners.
What I don’t like in this situation is the scheming.
Be straight up when you’re doing something wrong (outside of committing some complicated crime like a heist or assassination). If she told him she liked him and wanted to jump his bones and they decided to find a broom closet, I personally would be less bothered.
Also, there would be less fallout if he shot her down than finding out later that the woman he thought was a friend was just another person viewing him as a sex object and also actively trying to interfere in his life (I’m in the group of people who think you can’t be JUST friends when one person wants to see the other person naked).
Basically, I see this situation as Jacob thought he had a friend when in reality they were plotting against him. That the plot involves a romantic relationship between him and Joyce is secondary to that.
Side note — This discussion thread is so long, I almost forgot I started it.
It makes me a bit happy as I believe this is my first long one (even if a lot of the discussion is because of my word choice).
Well not that I condone anything that Joyce is doing but I can see why. She’s a horny teenager and her fundie upbringing has probably repressed her when it comes to feelings of desire.
I dunno, all of those sound good to me. And we know Joyce mainly lusts after romance anyway so I think she’d be okay with it. Not to mention Jacob has also said something along the lines of sex not being important (can’t remember exact quote and am on mobile) so I think they would be able to prevent each other from doing anything too rash.
As a former horny-teenager-from-a-fundie-upbringing, yeah that’s pretty much it. I mean you eventually round the bases but it takes a lot of time compared to you other heathens.
I have a pretty strong suspicion it wouldn’t take Joyce very long at all. Especially with a boyfriend who didn’t push, but also wasn’t going to reject her outright.
She practically threw herself at Ethan at one point – who of course wasn’t interested in catching her.
Mind you, there’d be tons of guilt and self-blame and “what have I done” afterwards.
Moral/ethical reasons aside, Joyce is choosing to naively play a dirty game, and Raidah as we’ve seen, has more tricks up her sleave than Joyce can hope to muster.
Among all the other things Joyce hasn’t thought all the way through is, even if this all goes just how she wants it to, how her parents will react to her coming home with a black Episcopalian boyfriend.
I don’t recall the Browns ever acting explicitly racist, but I can pretty much promise you they’re “we don’t have any active conscious dislike of black people but are still very uncomfortable around them” at best, never mind that to lots of Evangelicals, anyone who isn’t Evangelical isn’t “really Christian”.
Carol was pretty happy when she discovered that Joyce had made a black friend, so that she could tell everyone on the street that her daughter isn’t a racist. That’s the most I think we’ve seen about their attitude towards people of color. Hank seems much more open in general, certainly in regards to Becky’s sexual orientation, so I think he would be less likely than Carol to object about Jacob’s race. That said, there are definitely people out there who seem totally fine riiiight up until it comes to interracial relationships, for whatever reason.
I don’t know what either of them would think about Episcopalians, though. I think my prediction that Hank will have less of an issue than Carol also applies here, but without knowing where Carol would stand on the issue, that “less than” might not mean very much in practice.
It is notoriously difficult to read nuance in short text, but you seem to be implying that atheists don’t have, or know very little about, morality and ethics. If so, I can assure you that you are mistaken.
I could be wrong, but in most contexts, people who approve of fundamentalist Christian ethics refrain from sticking “fundamentalist” in the front there.
Nah. I want to see just how Dorothy is going to frame and justify whatever objections she has to whatever she perceives Joyce has in mind re: Jacob and Raidah.
Well, a really, really easy way would be to quote Terry Pratchett/Granny Weatherwax.
“And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is. ”
“It’s a lot more complicated than that . . .”
“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”
“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes . . .”
“But they starts with thinking about people as things.”
Dorothy is mad at her because her strength is her weakness, but also struggles because she feels like she lacks that ability.
And that pisses Dorothy off EXTRA when Joyce uses that power things JOYCE KNOWS IS WRONG COME ON JOYCE DON’T FEIGN INNOCENCE YOU KNEW YOU WERE WRONG IN PANEL TWO THIS ISN’T THE TAKE AWAY YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE FROM JOE
On some level she is – the justifications she’s been using to Dorothy show that. She’s not using the defenses some here are to claim there’s nothing wrong at all.
She’s just overwhelmed by the crush and with those justifications and her lack of modeling for healthy relationship behavior she’s all in anyways.
I friggin’ love this background. Very beautiful and lends itself well to dramatic strips (I’m pretty sure the “original sin” strip was at the same location).
I also love that Joyce – after a pretty harsh put-down from Dorothy – DOESN’T say “screw you guys, I’m going home.” She hurries after Dorothy to continue the conversation. That’s the second thing Dorothy could have said about Joyce – she never gives up on people.
FWIW, I suspect that Joyce is having an issue of moral dissonance here. She has been taught since infancy that selfishness and covetousness is wrong. However, right now, she’s confronting lust and desire for the first time so she’s subconsciously trying to create a moral construct to justify what is an entirely selfish course of action in order to maintain her self-image as a good girl.
The saddest thing about this is Joyce was motivated by the fact Joe said she could get Jacob if she wanted to. That she didn’t go after him because her self esteem was too low to think she could attract him.
How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of Being and ideal Grace.
I love thee to the level of everyday’s
Most quiet need, by sun and candlelight.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with the passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood’s faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints,—I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life!—and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.
It pisses me off how shameless Joyce is, she’s not course correcting when she gets a verbal slap in the face from her best/second best friend, she’s just doubling down on her awfulness
Joe has always been relatively moral when it comes to sex and sexual relationships. He clearly understands consent: he pursues people who seem interested in him and stops when told that they aren’t. He doesn’t cheat, nor does he help others cheat- in fact, he views cheating as something really bad, unlike Joyce, who doesn’t seem to understand why intentionally trying to seduce someone in a relationship is wrong. The “Do list” was creepy and objectifying, and Joe does view women as sex objects, but that’s not because he’s a misogynist- he views himself as a sex object as well. There’s nothing wrong with two consenting people hooking up despite not having a deep emotional attraction. I don’t think Joe has ever harmed someone intentionally in the context of a sexual or romantic relationship, and when he was told he wronged people unintentionally, he put a lot of effort into making amends.
I agree with this, EXCEPT that I must add the qualifier that Joe believes (believed?) it was ok to use alcohol as a “consent” lubricant (there’s a reason I put consent between inverted commas).
In general Joe seemed to believe in consent as a goal to be achieved, or perhaps more accurately in lack of consent as a problem to overcome.
Or at least his persona did. It’s hard to tell since much of his thing was in fact performance – boasting about creepy things he didn’t actually do. The comment about alchohol helping was with threesomes, which he later admitted he hadn’t actually had. So it’s hard to say where his real moral boundaries were.
He certainly had no problem approaching women and hitting on them repeatedly until or unless he was forcefully rejected. And then even after claiming to accept the rejection, he’d continue to comment.
I feel like Joe’s issue his the lack of nuance in his understanding of consent. Like he won’t contest an explicit “No” but anything short of that he seems to see as negotiable.
While I do hope this conversation is all Joyce needs to stop pursuing Jacob like this, I still hope we get to see more of Jacob. I’m curious about Harrison and what he’s like in person, but also I just kind of enjoy the sorts of scenes Jacob ends up in!
I think Sarah considers herself to be a petty and kind of awful person.
That said, I think even she’d be a little taken aback by Joyce trying to steal Jacob for purely selfish reasons.
That plus I doubt she’d handle a Joyce and Jacob couple as well as she thinks, which would further support her being petty and awful since that was her original plan.
Prediction: Joyce is the impetus for Raidah’s downfall, in that Jacob starts to see what a vitrolic person that she is in comparison. Joyce, on the other hand, will then do something stupid afterwards which will lead to her own downfall, and all three people will be miserable.
I’m not saying that it would change Dorothy’s opinion, but I wonder if it would have been helpful to Joyce to have Given more details than just “Mean to Sarah/Dina doesn’t like her”. Going into some details about how Raidah has gone out of her way to harass Sarah, or how Raidah was condescending to Dina might make Joyce out to be less of a villain.
She could also talk about how her original plan was to match Sarah with Jacob.
Not saying that it would make Dorothy approve of Joyce trying to steal Jacob, but it would at least highlight Joyce’s concerns and make it more than just “one malcontent not liking another”.
Actually I think sarah told her the details of the fued when they ran into rhaidah at the mall. And while it is true that Joyce was rude/condescending at the party, in my opinion she has altered her ways.
On the other hand Rhiadah is just as condescending and abusive now as when we first saw her.
Interesting detail, Joyce’s last line is “You’ve SEEN him” and not “You’ve MET him.” Intentionally or not, she’s just admitted to being at least somewhat aware of her…yearnings…
Yup, Dorothy lost the high ground right good and I look forward to her eventual downward spiral.
“How dare you be open to love? I mean, yes, you haven’t actually done anything to sabotage the relationship he’s in, but how dare you hope the person you have feelings for will realize their own feelings and choose you back? I mean…I thought you had so much LOVE!!!”
Until Joyce does something more than be friendly with hopes, she has done nothing wrong. Jacob gets to choose. Not Dorothy. Not Raidah. Not Joyce. JACOB gets to choose who he would be happiest with, and if that person chooses him back then that’s that. Regardless of if that person is the person he happens to be with right now.
And yet somehow Joyce doesn’t make the argument you did – that she’s doing nothing wrong. She makes excuses for it – “God means it to be” yesterday and “but Raidah’s mean” today.
I could be wrong. I’m not always right about predicting where the story is going to go, but I don’t see any downward spiral for Dorothy here. I think the various cues we’ve seen in the strip so far are pointing towards Dorothy being validated and Joyce learning a lesson about boundaries and about her screwed up notions of romance.
But I could be wrong. I’m seeing it through my filter, which basically aligns with Dorothy’s – messing with other people’s relationships is bad. That could lead me to misread things. Confirmation bias is a great drug.
Try to put aside your own opinions on the morality of it all for a moment. What do people see in the story itself that makes them think Joyce is going to be validated here? That Willis is on board the “Joyce is doing nothing wrong” wagon?
You may be right the story isn’t finished and it could end up going in that direction. I just find it frustrating because I agree with Shadlyn. Joyce hasn’t done anything wrong yet she hasn’t even been all that mean to Raidah. All Joyce really should have to say to Dorothy is that she likes Jacob. Since Jacob hasn’t said or indicated that he finds Joyce’s behavior towards him inappropriate it’s perfectly fine.
Intent to do wrong is still doing wrong.
While I would argue that ahat Joyce has been doing is doing something wrong, even if you disagree, you can’t deny her intent because she admits to it.
Now if you don’t think a plan to do something wrong is in itself wrong, then we are at an impasse.
And that’s the difference. That’s the point we disagree on.
I think Joyce is doing something wrong. Already. So does Dorothy. So did Joe, though it was more theoretical back then.
I suspect that Willis does too and I’m pretty sure that the story arc will bear that out – though you raise the possibility that it won’t do so until she goes enough further that everyone will see she’s doing wrong, which will likely leave the issue confused. Still I expect what she’s likely to learn from it is about boundaries and about not messing with people’s relationships, not just about not being too mean when you do so.
I could be wrong, but you haven’t presented me anything to suggest the narrative isn’t pointing to her already being in the wrong. Just your opinion that what she’s done so far is fine.
To be fair, though that is the reality we live in, gods help us all, I don’t think that’s what’s going on here.
There’s just a sizable group that thinks Joyce is doing nothing wrong and thus Dorothy is out of line calling her out. That hitting on people in relationships is perfectly fine and maybe even a good thing to do.
It’s completely alien to me, I don’t get it at all, but I’ve been convinced over the last couple days there’s just a huge gap of understanding I can’t bridge.
That gap of understanding kinda reminds me of an argument I had long ago… I don’t even remember what it was over, but at some point the guy said “it’s like if your partner threw out all your old socks and bought you more professional ones. You’d be happy they helped you, right?” And no, I wouldn’t be happy, I’d probably dump someone pretty quick if they pulled a stunt like that. But apparently he’d be happy if someone did that to/for him.
Sometimes people have really different standards of behaviour. I’m not quite sure what to make of that.
I dunno. I hate clothes shopping. As long as they weren’t pushing too drastic a style change on me, I could go for it. 🙂
I’d rather they asked first though.
Exactly. The guy’s point was that taking away belongings someone likes, without warning, is a *good* thing when you believe those belongings make them look less professional. I disagree with that point very strongly.
As someone on the other side of that gap of understanding: yes, I agree, this is apparently just a huge confusing difference in how people think about respecting someone’s agency and capacity to make choices.
I can respect someone’s agency, and part of the reason I had issues with Sarah’s original plans with Joyce were that she was disrespecting Joyce and Jacob’s choices in the manner. Can Jacob make his own choices? Obviously. But I think people are right when they point out that he’s made his choice and it is Raidah. No, they aren’t married. Yes, the relationship is only a couple of weeks old. But their relationship is their business and shouldn’t be meddled with by people who aren’t involved.
I’ve also seen people insisting that Joyce should take care of her needs and act on her feelings, which is still misunderstanding the situation. She hasn’t been clear and honest with Jacob. She isn’t subtle, it’s true. But Jacob obviously doesn’t fully realize she’s flirting/interested. Plus, I’ve personally been witness to experiences where people interfere with other, completely happy and healthy relationships just because they want one of the partners.
I’m about 95% sure that the gap isn’t about “respecting someone’s agency and capacity to make choices.”
I suspect a lot of the gap is that that isn’t at all how I think about these things and that’s why there’s little common ground for discussion.
I understand why people are upset but you can’t steal someone from a relationship. Especially one that’s been going on for just a few weeks. Jacob will figure out who he wants to be with, and it’s for him to decide.
He already did decide. That’s what a monogamous relationship is: a standing decision that one expects people to respect. If he was open to other partners he’d be in an open relationship.
I understand just fine; I just don’t agree. There’s a difference. People are upset because they have an exaggerated belief in the self-control of an 18-year-old under the influence of romantic attraction, coupled with a downright romantic belief in the sanctity of as-yet uncommitted relationships. Joyce is making a fool of herself for Jacob, and that’s something people do sometimes. Jacob isn’t exactly fending her off. He can clarify things anytime he wants to, but so far he does not appear to want to.
Relationships don’t run on autopilot. In a sense people decide every day. Over time, more and more investment is made. I’ve been deciding to stay with my wife, and she with me, for the last 37 years. Met all kind of challenges. And I give other people room to be foolish, because we’re not machines.
Perhaps it’s semantics or a misunderstanding, but there’s a difference between your first post and this one. Or at least in the context of the discussions going on here today. The first implies there’s nothing wrong with what Joyce’s doing – “can’t steal someone from a relationship”, “it’s for Jacob to decide”. The second implies Joyce is doing something wrong, but understandably – under the influence of her crush.
Personally, I’m not upset with Joyce. I might be if I was their age and involved in the drama, but she’s young and foolish and getting called out on crap like this or having it blow up in your face is how you learn.
I do think you shouldn’t mess with other people’s relationships, however uncommitted you think they are. I don’t think that’s a “romantic belief in their sanctity”, whatever the hell that means. More a pragmatic one of keeping your nose out of their business.
I am more puzzled than anything by the stark difference in attitudes on this. Some have more nuance, but there seems to be a large camp that puts no blame on anyone trying to break up couples – or at least judges only on the tactics they use. It’s very weird to me.
I can see that. Just in my own self I can look at this story line three or four different ways. I can agree one shouldn’t nose in on another person’s relationship. On the other hand a relationship that could be sunk by a little light flirting maybe should be. On the other, other hand, I challenge anyone to always appear rational while in the whelming flood of a crush. On the other, other, other hand, Jacob is flirting right back, while Raidah is treating Joyce very badly. And Dorothy could just smirk and say; “You know, you’re making a fool of yourself, right?” instead of acting like it’s a huge moral crisis. And so on. I can’t help thinking what I was like at that age.
And that’s just me. I kinda lost count but there’s about two dozen people commenting on this thread. What should Joyce do differently? In other words what’s the “right” thing here? I think the “no flirting” rule on display in this thread is kind of sterile and robotic, and others clearly feel it is an essential boundary.
My prediction is Jacob will break up with Raidah, she’ll blame Joyce (with some justification) but overlooking her own behavior, and Joyce will end up feeling like an idiot and apologizing all over the place.
…I’ll admit I don’t really see the issue with liking someone and wanting them to like you back, so long as you’re willing to back off if the answer is no. If she was trying to get him to cheat on raidah I’d say that’s bad but I’m pretty sure her end goal is for him to stop his relationship with raidah and start one up with her. And I sincerely doubt those two have made any long term commitments that he would be turning his back on if he dumped her because he found someone he liked better, it’s a few weeks dating not a marriage.
I agree. Joyce hasn’t asked him to dump raidah, hasn’t asked him out, hasn’t done anything past flirting. And while that’s not exactly the best thing to do, it’s hardly the worst as many people are saying.
Sure her intentions aren’t pure, but whose are?
Loading ...
“Anyway, I can multitask!”
Joe was right, but Dorothy was the person Joyce needed to learn this lesson from
Dorothy is being a crappy friend here. She would object if Joyce had tried to enforce her moral objection to premarital hankie pankie on her using guilt and yet here she is trying to enforce her moral principles on Joyce using guilt as a tool. I expected better from Dorothy and I expected more respect for Jacob’s right to choose. Joyce is not the one trying to manipulate Jacob. She’s just trying to be an attractive version of herself around him. Dorothy should withhold her intolerance until Joyce actually does something wrong.
“She’s just trying to be an attractive version of herself around him” yeah just no manipulation at all
It really isn’t. Why would it be?
She was withholding her “viewpoint ” until Joyce asked, then she said her peace and walked away. Joyce then ran after her and Dorothy was then prompted to speak further. Dorothy isn’t being intolerant, she doesn’t like what she’s seeing and only speaking her mind when asked.
She did no such thing. She took a parting last shot last comic quite openly.
* said her piece
While Joyce is not (yet?) using manipulative tactics, she intends more than just being “an attractive version of herself around him.”
She is clearly vieing with Raidah for Jacob. She herself says it’s only not “stealing her boyfriend” because she believes God means it to be. Now she’s trying to blame it on Raidah being mean. Even Joyce thinks she’s doing wrong, which is why she’s got excuses for why it’s okay.
I get that there’s a strong contingent here who think that hitting on people in relationships is perfectly fine as long as your methods aren’t too nasty in themselves, but you’ve got to accept that a lot of other people here don’t agree. And it that it has nothing to do with “respect for his right to choose” or his agency or whatever it is you think we’re talking about.
It’s also getting clearer and clearer that the narrative of the comic is coming down on the side of “Joyce isn’t doing the right thing here,” so I’d suggest bracing yourself for that.
Nicely said! I appreciate your ability to talk to the “other side” with respect and with a statement that may be useful to them.
One possible narrative arc here is: Yes it’s crappy, but good people are crappy sometimes, and life goes on. It might be the start of Joyce realizing that she’s not going to hell if she “sins.” I don’t think that would fully satisfy either side, but it would be a pretty important lesson.
Dorothy is also risking running out of friends, like Sarah did. Quite gutsy, actually, if she realizes it.
Who was that person who said that yesterday’s strip was the end of Joyce and Dorothy’s conversation and that Dorothy wouldn’t talk it out any further?
Well, Dorothy did signal the end of the conversation. Joyce just chose to chase after her to continue it.
I do think Dorothy would have talked it out more in the future, but as of the last strip, she was walking away.
Aye, but you could also argue that Dorothy expected Joyce to come after her. It’s that whole thing with business negotiations, the strongest and simplest move in the book is to walk away, and make the other person come after you.
I just want to say, I adore Panel 2 Joyce. That line is just brimming with the right blend of sass for a dear friend.
I was one of them, and she did. She walked away. Joyce had to chase after her. She wasn’t going to continue on her own.
Saint Dorothy, eh? Yeah, all she did was say that the friend who adores her isn’t who she thought she was, and is indeed a worse person that she’d imagined, and then turned away.
No, that’s begging for a continuation.
All the adorable Joyce faces!
This is actually going better than I expected.
Also, goddamn, Dorothy’s stink eye in panel 5.
Because Joyce did what every person who walks away after a single lecturing line to their best friend always hopes will happen – she followed Dorothy and asked to talk some more.
Still, I get the feeling Becky is a lot better equipped to help Joyce through this than Dorothy is.
How? Becky doesn’t even think there’s a problem with this.
Exactly. Any problems that come up, Becky will be advising Joyce with Joyce’s best interests in mind rather than trying to make Joyce care about something she clearly doesn’t. It’ll be about Jacob getting sad, Jacob’s life getting messed up, Jacob feeling guilty as hell, things which Joyce would care about but clearly hasn’t thought through.
“You’re better than this” might work if you’re both on the same moral page to begin with. Dorothy is clearly not. Even more talk from Joe if he could get into the reasons for why this might be a bad idea would be better than Dorothy’s angle.
Except Becky’s actually on the same page with Joyce and also not thinking about the things Joyce clearly hasn’t thought through. She’d be all about improving Joyce’s flirting technique so that she’s more successful and suggesting subtle ways to tear Raidah down.
Might as well go to Billie for advice.
Becky isn’t thinking about it now because she, unlike Dorothy, doesn’t see any inherent moral problem with what Joyce is doing. That’s why she would be more helpful to Joyce in thinking things through.
No she isn’t, last strip Becky was in was her wanting to see horny Joyce go for it. Dorothy is doing just fine
I said help Joyce through this, not stop her. Though Becky might well convince Joyce to stop and see what she’s doing too once the consequences on Jacob’s life starts coming up.
It’s different in this situation, though. Because Joyce literally can not be alone outdoors.
Dammit, I forgot about that. (And I think Dorothy did, too.) Joyce has been doing better, lately (making it across several different outdoor trips on her own), so it’s easy to forget that she could have an anxiety relapse any time. Okay, yeah, bad Dorothy for walking away like that–at least without saying, “Go inside, let Becky walk you back today,” which would’ve at least addressed the problem.
Yes. Becky, whose treatment of Dorothy hasn’t been all that dissimilar to Raidah’s of Joyce lately just might have something to say here.
Except that Becky’s all in on Operation Breakup, even knowing it was for Joyce’s benefit before Joyce did.
Pretty sure they were being sarcastic. As in, Becky whose treated Dorothy in a similar way that Raidah’s treated Joyce might not be that great of a neutral party to help Joyce see the error of how she’s acting.
A sexy man is indeed several good reasons.
And a number of naughty ones.
naughty is why they are so good
A hard man is good to find!
An given his dislike of being wanted for purely aesthetic reasons, he probably likes none of them.
Well, he’s also kind, smart, and funny. There are plenty of reasons to want to be in a relationship with Jacob, the aesthetics are just icing on top.
I would argue that he’s sexy mostly because he’s kind, smart, and funny. Particularly the later two – I have a thing for witty intellectuals.
I’m sure that helps, but Joyce has gone off at great length about his looks – his strong arms and all that.
He’s been referenced by many in the comic as physically attractive.
Strong arms are also an excellent reason – not to mention very sexy.
As to Joyce – while her current comment is about his physical appearance, Joyce was also physically attracted to Joe and we saw how that turned out. While she might be using shallow phrasing, it is clear from her reaction to Jacob over time that it isn’t only his looks that have her, as Becky put it, “horny”.
It’s pretty clear they’re a major factor. Not the only one certainly, but she’s spent a lot of time focused on them. Especially while she was still theoretically helping Sarah.
Yes, but you won’t know any of that by just seeing him. I’d agree if Joyce had spoken about Dorothy having met him, instead of having seen him. This is an argument about his looks.
Look, the more perfectly-bulked muscles you have, the more reasons you can fit into those muscles. Muscle = Reason ‘cuz ‘Murica.
…wait
Dotty, where are you going with this
Pretty sure this is meant as platonic love, so stow the shipping goggles for the time being 😛
My gods, can you imagine the drama possibilities, though? Becky goes all vengeful and starts sharpening knives; Dina, forced to confront Becky’s ‘true love’ goes hard-core Goth, doing bad poetry about dinosaur heartbreak; Mike, deciding that this group doesn’t actually NEED his help to be miserable, gets on a bus to Portland?
Damnit, *this* close to a Fraiser reference but you picked the wrong city. 🙁
Dorothy didn’t choose to love in the case of Walky.
Didn’t she? She broke up with Walky because she believed it was unfair to keep him in a relationship that she couldn’t participate in. Letting him go was the best way to love him.
No, she cut him free because he was too much of a distraction in the face of all of her other priorities.
Let’s not pretend her breaking up with him was for his benefit.
It kind of partly was. It was at least partly because she realized the pause and relapse was shitty to him. I can’t be reeling you in and pushing you away constantly and “This hasn’t been very fair to you, has it?” in the previous strip.
Without that bit of revelation, she might have kept him on the line longer, tried another pause, “for real this time.” Of course, she’s still tempted to reel him back in.
The distraction thing was definitely a large part of it as well, of course. It’s all part of what she’s going to need to work through.
That Joyce is being selfish, objectifying and lying to herself about it so that she can feel like the “good guy”. Like she said yesterday, Joyce should be better than this.
*this is a scene when the original score takes over the soundtrack*
Panel four Joyce obviously doesn’t remember when she was very mean to Sarah and Dina
When was she mean to Dina? Did she call her mentally challenged, because that’s why I agree with Joyce on this.
Well, ‘evilutionist’ isn’t MUCH better, even if Dina didn’t take it that seriously.
Eh. She wasn’t THAT mean to Dina. They had one interaction where Raidah was condescending towards Dina, assuming that she was mentally challenged.
Which, yeah, dick move. But that’s been the default attitude towards Dina by just about everyone. Like, remember this comic? http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/safe-2/
Dina acts oddly. First blush casual interactions can lead to blunt, surface-level observations. Raidah was a bit of an ass, but hardly that far outside the bell curve.
Oh, that was Joyce who said that. All this time I’ve been blaming Sarah. So yeah, she’s really not much better than Raidah when it comes to being ableist with Dina.
judging from Dina’s reaction? yes, she’s much better
let Dina herself judge what’s worse ableist and what’s less worse
Also Dorothy and Roz.
I mean, yeah, his biceps alone are one
Don’t even get us started on his trapeziums…
Also…
Joyce? Panel 2? NO.
Atheistic Moral Relativity is a good name for a band.
Strawman is better.
I bet their shows would involve a lot of pyrotechnics.
Here is hoping that Dorothy can stop this before it goes any further, otherwise fingers crossed that a harsh lesson is comings for Joyce. Raidah still needs her own epiphany and/or comeuppance, sometimes those things go hand in hand, but we’ll have to wait several weeks for that knowing how time works in DoA.
Several weeks is lowballing it, unless the epiphany is scheduled for later “today” – “yesterday afternoon” in-universe was back in March, our time.
Raidah needs to learn several lessons about life- she’s no closer to perfect than anyone else in the series- but it would be seriously undermining the arc for Joyce here to partially validate her behavior by hammer Raidah over her shortcomings rn imo.
by hammering*
I don’t think it would necessarily undermine the arc for Raidah to be called on her own poor behaviour, but A) It depends how. Raidah needs to be told to knock it off when she’s being condescending or elitist. Joyce needs something drastic to happen because otherwise she’s not getting it. B) If/when Raidah is called on some of her behaviour, I don’t want it to have ANYTHING to do with Joyce. I want Joyce 24601 miles away from it, especially if whatever happens also ends Raidah/Jacob.
Those were my thoughts exactly, Joyce has no reason to even be a part of Raidah’s learning lesson. Joyce is learning the lesson from a friend(hopefully) or she’ll figure it out when she screws up. Raidah should have the same opportunity, her biggest issue at the moment is the way she treats Jacob and her vitriolic condescension. Hopefully Raidah and Jacob will talk though, as King Daniel pointed out above, that is probably several months not weeks out.
Raidah shoukd just dump her elitist ass.
That’s an interesting context for that particular reference.
I will take ALL chances to make that reference. 😛
Well the main reason any consequences for Raidah are likely to be related to Joyce is that Joyce is a main character and Raidah isn’t. Jacob isn’t even a main character.
I strongly doubt the two of them are going to get their own plot arc where Raidah gets called on something else she’s doing.
Honestly, I wouldn’t even mind if it had something to do with Sarah or she was called on it because she was being a jerk to a different main character. I just really don’t like the idea of it being Joyce because I have a distinct impression Joyce will take that to validate her own crappy behaviour this arc.
That ship has pretty much sailed, I’m afraid. Unless Raidah comes out of this storyline smelling like a rose, which I strongly doubt.
I do hope that Joyce’s own consequences and likely rejection by Jacob over it will be sufficient she won’t be able to validate herself by Raidah also going down.
She doesn’t even have to come out of this storyline smelling like a rose, just kick the can down somewhere else and have someone else set it off.
was wouldn’t mind if being regarding Joyce if it’s Jacob seeing how Rajesh treats people like joyce. I.e. Education majors and teachers, people she doesn’t regard as being on the same level as herself and jacob.
No. I still want absolutely nothing to do with Joyce. There are other teachers or education majors around Raidah can learn her lesson from.
My hope currently is
– The Harrison meeting goes terribly, for reasons that could potentially be Joyce-adjacent but are still mostly a hole Raidah digs for herself.
– Joyce is fairly quick to renew flirting after she finds out, Jacob is sad, Joyce is ‘but she was Wrong for you!’ and Jacob realizes she’s been flirting for a while or something. Cue Joyce getting a reality lesson.
-Like, Ethan (who was completely unaware and uninvolved in this whole thing,) agrees that all that shit was fucked. Danny comes in playing the ukulele, sees A Sad, and gives Jacob a heart-to-heart about thinking the only way to succeed is One a Specific Path and measuring up to your more-impressive siblings and how Danny is now at peace with himself once he realized he had to do what makes him happy for him. Then they all go to the comics store. Maybe there’s a metaphor about different ways to be heroes. Anyway friendship and maybe helping keep Jacob from feeling like he has to be Harrison 2: Electric Boogaloo.
– And later after sufficient space has been given and Joyce reflects on her actions, she sees Jacob and gives a heartfelt apology.
– Meanwhile maybe he’s met someone who’s not checklist-perfect, but has plans of her own and complements him in different ways and Joyce respects this relationship and they can all be friends, maybe. (Near as I recall Jacob’s straight. Don’t actually ship him with anyone currently in-comic, but there’s a lot of background characters and even more Currently Nameless, Faceless Students.)
I’d actually be really into Ethan and Danny befriending Jacob lmao and Danny and Jacob bonding over expectations placed on them by others and choosing to go the path that would make them happier would be really neat
It’d be great, right? Ethan and Jacob are already roommates too, so it is possible.
(Now, I do think Jacob probably does genuinely want to be in law, but there’s a lot of different ways to be a lawyer without carbon copying your brother and still help people.)
I apologize if I’m spoiling a joke; but you can’t get 24601 miles away from somewhere on the surface of the Earth, because it’s circumference is only 24901 miles around the equator, and 24812 miles through the poles. So…if Joyce started traveling south from Bloomington, and traveled for 24601 mi, she would end up just 211 miles north of Bloomington, which would be pretty close to her hometown of La Porte. Coincidence? I think not!
She’s rather farther from perfection than most of the teenage cast.
A comparison between the adults and the adolescents in this comic offers little reason to hope that people tend to improve as they mature in the Dumbiverse.
Since it is called Dumbing of Age, and based on your proposal, the implication is the most level-headed people in this universe are the newborn.
Down with Raidah!!!
I like how this is rendered, it looks like the golden hour. very cinematic
Yeah, the autumn hues and shadows make for interesting visuals.
Agreed. The only thing lacking is Becky and her high-viz hair
Panel four Joyce obviously doesn’t remember when she herself was very mean to Sarah and Dina therefore she shouldn’t have Jacob either
I’m liking Dorothy more and more here
Didn’t you have a different face higher up the page?
Also, is it wrong that your name makes me think of Bone Thugs in Harmony?
I remember at least once when Joyce was very mean to Sarah, but when was she mean to Dina?
When she thought Dina was mentally challenged and talked to her like she was stupid.
Back when Billie was buying Joyce boots at the mall.
Norah was asking about when Joyce was mean to Dina.
My bad. Should have paid better attention.
She called Dina “[someone who] acts and looks like she’s, y’know, twelve“ at the dorm party. Dina is turning 19 in a couple of weeks in-universe, which makes her older than at least half of the cast.
I remember that now. I’d been blaming Sarah for that comment, but it was actually Joyce who made it.
To be fair, Joyce was correct. Dina does look and act like she’s 12. (Or did at the time. She’s put effort into social skills and changed a bunch since then – partly due to dating Becky.)
It’s been a running thing. Including Dina herself bonding with an actual 12 year old, Riley, before realizing they weren’t the same age.
Okay, but you don’t SAY that. Especially not right in front of her and as justification as to why nobody should be sexually or romantically interested in her.
Wait, when was this? I don’t remember Joyce being mean, but we’ve got almost a decade of strips now, I could easily be forgetting a lot.
To Sarah? Off the top of my head, when she accused Sarah of wanting to get rid of Becky “just like Dana”, during the run-up to the dorm party. To Dina, see my comment above.
True, she did do some rather mean things to Sarah and Dina. But, she recognized her mistakes (well Dina helped set her straight in one case) and since then has been decent to both of them.
This is a little different than Raidaih, who is rather eliteist and petty, doesn’t recognize her mistakes, and doesn’t change her behavior.
Don’t recall Joyce ever apologizing to Dina for the “twelve-year-old” remark which she had made to her face – could be wrong though.
She didn’t exactly apologize about the age comment but she did apologize (in a vague way “I’m so sorry” with no mention of what for because she got interrupted) after Dina kissed Becky and asserted that she’s not a child. Otherwise, she and Dina just plain don’t get along because of eeevilution. In fact, Joyce using Dina as an example here is strange because I don’t remember Dina telling her that she disliked Raidah. Maybe she heard from Becky.
Becky doesn’t know either. Dina’s only mentioned that to Sarah as far as we know.
Oh, huh, Joyce snapped at Sarah in a very mean way once.
And felt like the ass she was acting immediately afterwards.
Keeping this one mistake around to revive it here is like saying somone can’t become president because they cheated on a test when they were 7.
As far as Joyce knows, the extent of Raidah’s “mean-ness to Sarah” goes as far as strongly disliking her for getting Dana expelled. Bar the dorm party, the only interaction between Raidah and Sarah which Joyce has been present for was at the mall – when Sarah punched Raidah.
“for getting Dana expelled” is a pretty… uh, not correct way of describing what she did, though.
Semantics – Dana is no longer in college due to Sarah’s actions, and it’s been implied since that Dana’s home situation isn’t exactly what one would call ideal.
Pointing out that Dana was withdrawn rather than expelled isn’t semantics. Dana being expelled means she’s not coming back without difficulty and would probably seriously negatively impact her chances of getting into another school. Being withdrawn doesn’t carry quite the same academic or disciplinary implications and she can always explain a withdrawal as ‘I went home when my mom died because I wasn’t in a place to continue at school’. Most admissions officers would accept that. Saying ‘I got kicked out because I smoked weed in the dorms in clear violation of both school rules and the law at the time’ would probably get a different reaction.
That said, you’re absolutely correct that Dana’s home situation has been throwing up yellow and red flags all over the place.
Everyone keeps saying this and like the only flag of any kind is her father pulling her out of school except that’s not even reasonable because she was in a drug and grief fueled depressive spiral that was seriously affecting her well being and there’s literally no reason to think his reasons weren’t entirely out of concern for her happiness and safety and ensuring she got the help she clearly needed.
I think Raidah’s made some comments about Dana not doing well at home that could be taken that way. Except that a) Raidah was making them to blame Sarah further and b) Raidah’s not really a great witness here, considering she thought Dana was fine.
I dug through all of Raidah’s appearances and I’m pretty sure I found what you’re referring to the “Dana is in a better place” “Not according to Dana last I checked” exchange which I guess could be interpreted that way but yeah A) Raidah isn’t exactly a reliable source and B) it could just as likely be Dana isn’t dealing well with not being able to just repress her problems with copious drug use.
I believe other signs people were worried about were things like Dana never really talking about her dad, as opposed to her mom.
Plus the whole situation parallels pretty well to Carla and Billie/Ruth, which did have messier consequences Carla didn’t see coming. We don’t know for sure if Dana’s gone a bad way yet, but I can see why people are concerned about it.
That’s fair but people act like it’s a given rather than just a possibility. Like, maybe she’s just not super close with her dad for totally non-sinister reasons like many many people because of how men often get a pass on child rearing and thus don’t bond with their children to the same degree mothers do.
Yeah, at this point we really only have flags to go on rather than anything concrete.
It’s probably because like 80% of guardian figures in this comic are some brand of abusive so it skews perceptions in that direction.
At least on my campus, you could totally have a medical withdrawal for severe depression, which Dana clearly had going on. Some campuses do have a minimum period before you can come back of a year or something, but I think it tends to depend on the reason and sufficient demonstrable recovery. … wait we could maybe see Dana back in this strip as a student potentially.
As to the red flags – the biggest one that sticks out to me is that Dana went away to college while her mom was clearly terminally ill and came back immediately after the funeral. Maybe her mom was only diagnosed/relapsed after they committed to IU and was like ‘Don’t let my sickness impact your life’ or Dana thought she could handle it all, but still that is… A Thing, for sure.
Yeah, he mom died, if I remember correctly. So, being home must’ve been more painful than being away.
Joyce saw Raidah gonout of her way to insult Sarah and warn her, Joyce, away from her. How much more do you have to see to know Raidah is bullying Sarah?
Dorothy is just about tired of your shit, Joyce.
She’s not there yet, but it won’t take much more to push her over the edge.
Oh man are the fanbase about to get sledgehammered with the revelation that people they choose to dislike because they’re in opposition to characters they’re led to empathize with aren’t like, any less intrinsically people and may be deserving of exactly as much love and tolerance of imperfection as the people they projected themselves onto?
They didn’t learn that with Danny, or Sal, or Roz, why would they start now, with someone with less going for them than any of those three?
I can’t speak for others in this fanbase, but the reason I prefer Joyce over Raidah is because despite all her wacky beliefs Joyce generally tries to be a kind person overall. Meanwhile in most of strips I’ve seen Raidah in she’s been a condescending jerk. Maybe it’s just that the fanbase prefers kind people to jerks.
“The fanbase prefers kind people to jerks.”
Two words: Michael Warner.
Oh, but those supporters see him as a fundamentally helpful and therefore kind person wrapped up in a jerky exterior. (ie jerk with a heart of gold). With Mike, if you squint, you can sorta see why people might think of him as helpful. Though with Raidaj, not so mucj
…Mike’s an ass, but he’s a fun ass!
Besides, in a strip-a-day comic, sometimes you need an asshole comic relief character to get a joke in for the final panel!
I am so fucking angry that this fanbase is willing to give that insufferable white prick a pass but Roz is the devil for hurting Joyce’s feelings once.
Isn’t Roz white, too?
Roz is Hispanic.
Yeah, a lot of the characters have lots of surges of disproportionate hate. I believe Willis once said the top five were Ruth, Becky, Carla, Dorothy and Sal, though from what I’ve seen I’d say Amber and Roz would be up there too.
Well to be fair Ruth was kind of an abusive monster initially.
Every character is an asshole and I hate them all equally. 🙂
Oh, I don’t know. Every villain that comes along there’s a large chunk of the fanbase that all about excusing their “imperfections” until it becomes too blatantly obvious to deny.
That Joyce is in the wrong here doesn’t mean that Raidah’s a good person. “imperfections” or not.
Really, Raidah’s just kind of a mediocre person. She’s got some gross attitudes and she’s super vindictive but she also seems to be really loyal to her friends (to a fault) and she does seem to be perfectly nice to people she doesn’t hate for example her first meeting with Joyce where she’s totally friendly until Sarah punches her in the face (which she even gives her a pass on).
I think part of the problem is we don’t see as much of Raidah as the others so the negative qualities stick out more.
That’s exactly the issue. Like the bulk of her appearances are opposite someone she has an adversarial relationship with.
It’d be interesting to see her interact with someone she has no known issues with for longer than 2-3 strips, like Carla or Roz or someone like that.
Or you know, she just isn’t a nice person. It’s possible.
There really are only a couple of strips that might not show her in a bad light and even those are questionable. Maybe she really is all sweetness and light when not dealing with Sarah or Joyce, but reading her that way is a stretch.
She’s got those gross class issues. She’s got her condescension to Dina. She’s got some serious warning signs in her interactions with Jacob.
Call it protagonist bias if you want, but what we’ve seen of her is what Willis has chosen to present.
The high point of my opinion of her came in that sequence where she met Joe and Jacob after their lunch with Sarah and Joyce, where Jacob and Joyce first started to hit it off. She put down Joe for the list, said she trusted Jacob with Joyce and (hah!) Sarah and talked about how she wasn’t like those other jealous girls he knew.
Sadly she’s undermined that little speech with her active moves to secure Jacob’s affections from the threat of Joyce. Which now makes me think that it was all bullshit from the start – what she thought he wanted to hear in order to keep him attached to her.
I mean her first encounter with Joyce she was totally friendly and nice. Then Sarah showed up and punched her in the face which she was far more forgiving of then she had any reason to be.
Also, I suspect her point was that she wasn’t irrationally jealous not that she never experiences jealousy even when it is the completely reasonable response. For example, when someone is actively trying to break up her relationship and then puts on a bullshit facade of niceness to her face.
Then she should talk to Jacob about it, rather than playing stupid mind games. Or ditch him, if she doesn’t trust him.
And Joyce hasn’t really put on a bullshit facade of niceness to her face. Not more than Raidah has. Not enough that either of them are fooled. (Jacob’s oblivious, of course.)
Did you mean to sound that condescending?
Just gonna drop this friendly reminder that raidah lead a year long harassment campaign against someone, told them to die in her first appearance and has consistently after elitist and condescending. It’s almost as if :0 we have legitimate reasons for disliking her!
Either way I’ll hate who I wanna hate, good reasons or not and I look forward to her getting called out on her bullshit
All of this.
You say “the fanbase” as if it doesn’t include you.
Or the people who agree with you.
Or Team Pizza.
O.o
Joyce, this has nothing to do with atheistic moral relativity and John Calvin’s predestination. This is about you choosing to do evil against evil people for selfish reasons that you try to justify, and that will eventually hurt good people as collateral damage.
Evil is a pretty strong word to describe either of those things.
Oh there it is the smoking gun, this argument is over. Full honesty even though I like the dynamic of Jacob and Joyce I still can’t say there’s nothing wrong this because there obviously is.
We’re getting shades of the old “Roomies” Joyce here and that version of her was so damn obnoxious. Boy crazy, manipulative, a mindset that she was entitled to a relationship. As much as a lot of us want them to hook up is it really worth this, seeing what Joyce is becoming?
Probably the thing I like least about this storyline. I think they’d make a really interesting couple to explore. It would also be interesting to see Joyce deal with the very physical nature of this attraction.
But the set up pretty much guarantees it’s not to be. Which is interesting character development in its own right, of course.
It’s interesting that Dorothy is focusing on the Joyce trying to steal Raidah’s boyfriend vs Joyce attempting to subvert Jacob.
It’s like even she doesn’t acknowledge how Joyce is trying to ignore his agency in choosing to be with Raidah.
But, this conversation isn’t finished. Maybe she’ll get around to it.
Well in her defence this is all happening rather quickly so its not like shes had a chance to sit down, gather her thoughts and work out which is the worst of Joyces transgressions
I’m hoping that she will bring it up later. No one is perfect. We know Dorothy’s no perfect. But there are very few people who are treating Jacob as someone who can make his own decisions right now, and I’d like her to be one of them.
Well the two kind of go hand in hand…
They are similar, but not the same thing, so addressing one does not address the other.
And since she’s in the process of admonishing Joyce, it would be disappointing if the only thing that seemed to matter was how Raidah was being treated vs how Jacob was being treated.
As another defense Dorothy has mentioned Jacob’s agency before, at the dorm party.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/conceding/
Plus as has been mentionned before, the “Jacob’s agency” argument cuts both ways. He definitely has a right to choose monogamy with Raidah – but can he choose where there is no choice ?
“I can resist everything except temptation”, so to speak. You cannot choose to resist temptation and therefore affirm your will to be monogamous if you’re not offered something else.
To the same extent that Joyce had a choice to send her parents to hell and go become a fighter pilot, but was unaware of that choice.
He already made the choice by being with Raidah over being single or being in an open relationship.
So now acting as if his decision is faulty or doesn’t matter since Joyce has not chosen him is arrogant at best and insulting at worst.
*now chosen hi is arrogant…
When you try to catch a typo and make another typo…smh
*now chosen him is arrogant…
So really, by attempting to seduce him, I’m really only doing him (and his girlfriend) the service of allowing him to prove his loyalty. I’m doing a good deed here.
Nah, I don’t think so.
Yeah, Jacob should resist the temptation. That’s doesn’t mean it’s okay for Joyce to offer it.
Consider the temptation analogy of bribing a government official: We don’t just make it illegal for the official to accept bribes, but for someone to offer them as well. Why, if the official has the agency to refuse?
Everyone falling in love should have someone else around who is also interested in them. That way, they can really choose to be with one, the other or none. They can see who treats them with respect in which area, who is occasionally condescending or aggressive,…
Having someone around to compare allows you to question yourself what you really want.
That’s silly.
Just having other people around that you yourself find attractive, but choosing to be with one person, either by asking them out or being asked out, has already verified that you made a choice of what you really want as you didn’t have to invite/accept their invitation. Even if there was no one else you found atteactive, you made the choice that you didn’t want to be single and that the person you’re with was acceptable.
There’s no need to have people come on to you while you’re in the middle of a relationship to some how give your choice validity.
Likewise, another person isn’t necessary to notice that your s/o doesn’t treat you well and/or has bad behavior, especially since you can’t gurantee the other person wouldn’t also have the same or different bad behavior.
That is so foreign to me. I mean it would be great to have multiple people falling for me at once, but I’m actually connecting with someone, I don’t need to have someone else to reject to validate that choice.
I’ve had people hitting on me when I was involved. It wasn’t some great oppotunity to reevaluate my choices or anything, it was just weird and awkward.
There really is some deep comprehension gap here. I wonder if it’s a generational thing? Or just different people with starkly different attitudes.
The central thing seems to be people’s response to knowing that someone else has said, “I’ve chosen to be happy with person X”. One camp says, if you hear someone say that “I’ve chosen to be happy with person X”, you should just stop considering changing that, or presenting your friend with anything that might change their mind.
But wouldn’t you agree that it’s silly to arbitrarily respect someone saying, “I’ve chosen to be happy with just K”, with K not a person? “I’ve chosen to be happy with just playing video games…” “…with just eating chicken, but I dislike turkey…” “…with just being an arse to people…” “…with just this flavor of Christianity…” Don’t these sound inherently silly? Indeed, this comic itself at so many points has been about how critical it is to help your friends challenge themselves when they say things like this.
So what ultimately I don’t understand is what suddenly makes it so imperative to some to unquestioningly respect another’s assertion that they’re happy with just X when X is a person instead of a thing? Are they not underestimating their own potential for change?
“…with just this flavor of Christianity…”
Are you not aware of how much hate Mormons get for showing up on people’s doorsteps trying to convert people to their religion? I don’t think I’ve even heard anything about that religion besides the jokes and complaints about that.
Does ANYBODY like missionaries who isn’t part of a religion that employs missionaries.
And even they don’t like missionaries from other religions.
If someone considers it silly to respect my choice in partner and considers it to be a favor to me to introduce someone else to me or even try to put themselves into consideration by flirting with me all the while hoping I break up with my significant other, that is neither a favor I want nor a person I wish to know.
If you can’t respect a person or their relationships, or think that it’s in any way comparable to fucking eating chicken lmao I don’t know what to tell you
And no, in any case, I do not think it’s silly to respect what people have told me about their preferences. I have a friend that has told me that she doesn’t like eating cheese. Not because of any lactose problems or anything, she just doesn’t like it. I don’t try to offer her different kinds of cheese just in case “[she] might like this one.” I respect her choice because I like and respect her as a person.
Another thing: there’s a huge difference in introducing something like tabletop games to someone who exclusively plays video games, and trying to set up your friend who is already in a relationship on a date with a complete stranger. One’s a hobby, the other one is a personal relationship with physical and emotional ties from all parties. It’s a matter of respect for your friend, more than anything. There is nothing lost by your friend trying out new hobbies. There is something lost, however, by inserting yourself in a romantic relationship you have no place in.
Trying out new hobbies also doesn’t usually involve quitting the old hobby first. You can have multiple hobbies at once. Thus again being unlike a monogamous romantic relationship. (nothing wrong with poly, but still not a thing you should push onto a couple that haven’t shown interest.)
I think early on Ethan tried to pull Amber away from the video games, but that’s because she seemed to be neglecting everything else to play them and he wasn’t trying to get her to drop them entirely and replace them with his hobby.
That’s also a good point. With material things like food or hobbies, it’s usually never a one-or-the-other scenario, which something like choosing a significant partner typically is. Even if some or all parties involved were polygamous, that still doesn’t mean that it would work out, particularly if two parties were not compatible in any way. So, it would typically involve a choice between either of the partners, or even neither of them. Which, like you said, isn’t really comparable at all to hobbies.
Yes, that’s how I feel about it – respecting people’s choices is important to me.
Some of my friends don’t drink simply because they don’t like alcohol. But people (including me once, oops) still ask them to try various drinks that “don’t taste like alcohol”. It ranges from obnoxious to funny – the funniest I remember being the person who thought they’d like straight whiskey (or maybe it was tequila).
Often humans find it hard to believe anyone could simply not want X, and their responses get more and more bizarre as the cognitive dissonance grows. (And then there’s things like sexuality where it gets horrific instead. Ugh)
Yeah. I don’t like beer. Tastes nasty to me. Wine too. Pretty much anything fermented. No problem with hard alcohol though.
Back in college and shortly thereafter I had a lot of friends who were beer snobs – into the various craft beers that were starting to get big back then. They kept trying to get my to try their new favorites – “This is really good, you just haven’t had good beer before.”
I finally started telling them the closer it was to the perfect beer, the less I’d like it. I could drink the cheap mass produced stuff, since it wasn’t much like beer. 🙂
OTOH, it’s also true that people’s tastes often change over time and sometimes a little push to try something new or something you didn’t use to like isn’t a bad thing. But then that’s for relatively minor things. Less serious than relationships.
Why is respecting people’s harmless choices so alien to you? My mom doesn’t eat seafood but I don’t try to change her mind about it because who cares it’s her life why would I interject my opinions into a decision she has made that hurts nobody in any way. It’s just arrogant to assume you know someone’s mind better than they do.
I also don’t remember when the comic ever made a point of challenging people’s food choices lmao Like, everyone respects Joyce’s thing with food as much as they can
It’s the ‘little’ things like the bigotry and harmful biases and toxic behaviors that get challenged in the story, not someone’s decision to play video games.
Honestly? Because I think peoples’ harmless choices lead to aggregate human cluelessness that is at the root of so much of what sucks in this world. So many people fail to grow in so many ways because they have sought nothing, for lack of imagination of what to seek.
I used mostly things and hobbies to try to show a point that was mainly about ideas. Like you said, Emily, chicken or seafood doesn’t really matter. But when someone’s assertion is about worldviews and friendships and fulfillment, don’t you think such an idea would be more worthwhile for a friend to challenge, not lesst? While the stakes are still low?
The inertia associated with being in a relationship is so strong that I would consider it important for friends to help each other jostle themselves out of relationships, on presumption. That’s why I think marriage is as reasonable a point as it can be to draw that awkward line in the sand, for that presumption to change. At the time when you make the kinds of commitments that are difficult and costly to disentangle, you signal to your friends that you are no longer interested in the operating premises of your life being challenged or subverted. If you have a problem, any solution you are seeking is to be respectful of your relationship with your spouse. You change from asking to be disrupted in your relationships to being supported in the one you have chosen. It makes sense at that point, and not before.
Yes, I’m arguing that given that Joyce is interested in Jacob, and wants to be a good friend to him, and thinks she has a shot, then she absolutely -SHOULD- try her best. And she is doing that. The fact that she was started on this by Sarah’s pointless spite (and yes, Sarah has been utterly despicable and not respectful of Joyce or Jacob or Raidah at all in this matter) doesn’t really matter.
Remember, these people are just entering college. For someone in that position to say that they are trying be happy in a monogamous relationship with X is -entirely- premature. Isn’t this the whole darn point? Joyce’s infatuation with Jacob is exactly as silly and shallow as Jacob trying to pursue a “monogamous” relationship with Raidah. They’re both premature.
I wish I could remember what led me to stop believing “but people’s lives would be so much better if they’d only listen to my advice” because it sounds like that’s what you believe too.
And here I am, wanting to give you advice about how it’s not actually that great to push your advice on people. Lol.
But if people want to be challenged on every little decision, there’s nothing stopping them from forming a club for that, right? Then it’d just be the people who actually want to live that way. The people who thrive on it instead of finding it exhausting, irritating and/or disrespectful.
I am not asking or interested, nor will I ever be interested for my friends to challenge my relationship with my significant other. If I enter into a relationship with someone, I would hope that people that I consider to be my friends would respect me and my relationship and not try to ‘jostle’ anything, because they think they know better for me. If they think that I’m in a bad relationship and that I can do better? They can have an honest conversation with me like adults do. What they can never do is try to break up that relationship on their own, either by introducing someone to flirt with either one of us or by doing the deed themselves. That is disrespectful to me, to my significant other, and to my relationship both with my partner and with my friend.
And I don’t think that I need to be on the verge of getting married for something rather important like this to be respected by my friends. Do better by your friends.
Maybe I’m working on the challenge of being in a relationship? Maybe that’s how I’m challenging the “operating premises of my life”?
Maybe I don’t want friends to constantly be tearing down anything I’m trying to do, and expecting me to thank them for the good deed.
Oh. It was probably about the time I started seriously learning about boundaries. Maybe it was something in the book I read that changed my perspective.
Of course, first I had to have a bunch of experience in the downsides of *not* having boundaries before I could push past my bizarre (possibly learnt?) discomfort with the concept.
I’d say it’s pretty silly and maybe even offensive to compare something as personal as a relationship to eating habits or hobbies or whatever. People aren’t things. That’s the root of sin, as Granny Weatherwax would say.
The other big difference there is that “just”. Joyce isn’t trying to expose Jacob to some wider world of choice – she’s trying to get him to be with just her, instead of just Raidah. To abuse the food analogy further, that’s not like someone trying to get you to give turkey a try, that’s someone trying to get you to stop eating chicken entirely and switch to only turkey. And not out of real concern for you, but because they benefit from you eating turkey all the time (not really how to fit that into the analogy.)
Beyond that, I’d say this comic has never been about “how critical it is to help your friends challenge themselves when they say things like this.” It’s really hard for me to think of any examples. Could you pose a few?
There are a few exceptions, but they’re only when the behavior is toxic or damaging, one way or another. Joe’s list and general behavior would be one example there. No one’s been lauded for trying to break anyone up. There’s been very little of anyone trying to get someone else to change religions – Mary’s pushed her religious views on people, but she’s an outright villain. Joyce has done the same, but it’s presented as a bad thing she’s been overcoming. A few have been very, very gingerly nudging Joyce away from her church, but there we’re back to toxic again.
There are Joyce’s food hangups, but again her friends have done nothing more than tease her about them, while antagonists like John and Raidah have tried to use them against her. Joyce, more than anyone else, has talked about trying to change there.
I just don’t see it.
It’s like a telemarketer trying to get you to change ISPs.
You just described my literal hell. I’d rather die than play any role in a love triangle.
Because nobody is subverting Jacob’s agency. Seducing someone without saying explicitly that you’re doing so doesn’t violate their ability to choose for themselves. Gaining someone’s friendship and flirting them wouldn’t either. The intentions behind Joyce’s actions have no bearing on Jacob’s ability to choose for himself.
I didn’t say she subverted his agency, I said she ATTEMPTED to subvert his agency.
Her plan is to make the choice for him, first by replacing Raidah with Sarah and now by replacing Raifah with herself.
Best case scenario, she’s doing what she thinks is right for Jacob.
Worst case, she’s doesn’t care what’s right for Jacob.
Either way, she’s ignoring what Jacob has said he wanted, which is to be monogamous with Raidah.
Her actively wanting and trying to end his relationship with his chosen so without consideration for his feelings is ATTEMPTING to subvert his agency. Does matter that he, in reality, has a choice. In fact, his actual agency will probably be what makes this whole situation blow up in her face.
She’s seducing him. It will still be Jacob’s choice, to the extent love can be a choice, if he falls for Joyce. Jacob’s agency does not depend on Joyce’s success or failure.
As far as personal agency goes, this is no different than Apple trying to seduce someone away from Android by putting their sleek, distinctive brand out there. The consequences will be way different, of course. But the person being seduced would still be the one with the choice.
Again, I never said she could take away his agency. I said she’s ignoring it. Whether she succeeds or fails doesn’t change the fact that she’s ignoring it.
If you want to compare this to cellphones (Inahc is right, that’s a bit weird), it wouldn’t be as simple as Apple making new phones while you have an android. That’s because Jacob knows Apple phones exist already (just like he knows other women exist and that Joyce exists). The point point is he’s not in the market for a new cellphone which is why he can ignore that Apple just put something new out.
This would be closer to someone seeing you on an android and hearing you talk about how happy you are with your android phone and that you don’t intend to get a new phone, let alone switch brands, and then, while obstenibly having a nice fun outing with you, start describing features on the iPhone the android doesn’t have in order to get you to switch.
And having done a bit of that with Linux when I was a teenager (and seen others do the same with assorted software), I can tell you, it doesn’t work, and it’s obnoxious as fuck. What sometimes works is waiting until someone is pissed off at their broken windows PC and then going “well, if you want to give Linux a try I could install it for you” 😉 (but that can be done obnoxiously too. *Facepalm*)
I think most Linux users go through an evangelism phase.
With good reason 🙂
And if you somehow managed to convince me to switch to Apple, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with what you did. You’d probably fail and be annoying as hell and if I told you to stop and you didn’t we’d have a real problem. But if you managed not to annoy me then you’d have successfully and fairly convinced me to switch.
Joyce doesn’t have a clue how to seduce anyone.
And yet, judging by Jacob’s reactions (and the reactions of most of those around them), she’s making good progress.
In the somewhat metaphorical sense of “seduce into falling for her”, not the literal “seduce into having sex right now.”
isn’t what you described flirting?
Flirting is a method. Seduction is the intent.
One can also flirt without intent. Or seduce by other means.
If seduction is only immediate lead up to actual sex, then we need another term to cover getting someone to fall for you and want a romantic relationship.
I really don’t get this agency argument that keeps being brought up. Honestly I think it’s insulting to Jacob because it implies he can’t say no and has to be with either Raidah or Joyce. He can totally say no and be with neither, he can choose to leave Raidah for Joyce, or he can choose to stay with Raidah. No one is taking away his agency
I think it’s symptomatic of the big divide here about whether it okay to hit on people in relationships at all.
Those who think it’s fine are using the “agency” argument as the only possible reason those who don’t could have a problem with it – and then shooting it down as a bad argument.
Someone brought up temptation elsewhere today and I think that’s a better approach. Sure, Jacob is capable of resisting temptation and it’s his own fault if he doesn’t, but at the same time Joyce shouldn’t be dangling the temptation in front of him. Everyone has agency, everyone gets choices. Responsibility isn’t tied only to one person in any given situation.
The agency argument, at least for me, is that Joyce is teying to force a choice he didn’t ask for.
It’s still his choice, but since you know he’s objectively doing what he wants, saying “screw that! You didn’t know what you wanted until I put myself in your path.” is messed up.
I feel like tacos. Well I bought you hamburgers so forget the tacos.
I want to go to Hawaii. Here’s a ticket to Paris.
I think I’ll major in architecture. If you major in finance, I’ll guarantee you a job.
In all those scenarios, a person can say no, so they still have a choice. But the fact that their original plan is being ignored, regardless of how nice the other option appears, can be annoying.
And then, when you consider that this choice isn’t about food or a vacation or a major, but about a woman he’s involved with, committed to, and may possibly be falling in love with (just throwing that out there because committed relationships often involve love sooner or later if they last and not be use Jacob as indicated love in any way), the idea that another option is being thrown out there when he has already decided who he wants then, IMO, becomes insulting.
The general consensus seems to be that Sarah’s using Joyce to split up a seemingly-happy couple is evil: no real upside, with everyone likely to get hurt. Is that what Dorothy’s objecting to? Or is it that Joyce is now in it for herself? And is the latter REALLY all that different from, say, advertising a new cellphone to someone already in a satisfying relationship with a slightly-older one?
As for Jacob’s agency in the matter, he seems quite oblivious to any attempted subversion of it. What’s his story? Is he just naive? Ace? Gay? Unsure? Born female? 15? On steroids? So obsessed with living up to his brother’s achievements to have time for sex? Some of those possibilities might have Joyce discovering “that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting,” illogical as that may sound.
Fuck I hate finding “switch to us!” paper spam in my mailbox. If I was interested in switching, I know where their damn website is.
Also I think there’s something unsettling about comparing human relationships to brand loyalty.
I find something insulting about scheming against someone who views you as a friend. That the scheme is about getting him to switch significant others doesn’t change the fact that it’s a scheme.
Dorothy is, as far as I know, unaware of Sarah’s plan to use Joyce to break them up. She objected, way back at the party to Sarah wanting to break them up at all.
She’s only now (at this lunch) become aware there’s anything going on with Joyce and Jacob and is objecting on the grounds that Jacob’s in a relationship.
And yes I do think it is different, though there’s a sizable contingent here who think it’s perfectly fine, for reasons I don’t understand. I’ve mostly given up trying to explain why I think it is. There just seems to be a fundamental difference of opinion – one likely not breachable by logic or explanation.
I think Jacob’s mostly just oblivious. Not naive, exactly, just one of those guys who finds it hard to tell when someone’s hitting on him, despite responding to it. He’s complained to Raidah about past jealous girlfriends and I suspect this might be something of a pattern with him – close flirty friendships with girls with obvious crushes on him.
I’m still confused about how changing his mind would be a loss of agency.
In your examples, it would be like saying that if you decide that you hadn’t thought about Paris but it sounds like a better plan after all, you lose your agency. It’s weird to me. Changing your mind is not a loss of agency, whether it’s because of new elements or reconsidering old ones.
What Joyce is doing can be considered very wrong for all sorts of reasons – because it’s going to end in tears for everyone, because it goes against her own morals, because she’s using love as a excuse for lust, because she’s rationalizing it as love when it’s actually half-lust half spite, etc.
But really I can’t see where she’s taking his agency from him.
His agency isn’t lost if he changes his mind.
His agency isn’t being taken away from him.
Read my comments again.
I never said that, at least not in this thread nor, I don’t think, anywhere else (maybe other people have).
I DID say she was ATTEMPTING to SUBVERT his agency.
Jacob’s agency is being ignored. His choice of gf is being ignored. His decision to be with Raidah is being ignored. Choose whichever sentence makes more sense to you because they’re all the point I’m trying to make.
Regardless, it’s not ok to do that simply because Raidah is bad or Joyce is nice.
“I’ve made my choice.” “Well I just want to give you another one.”
“I didn’t ask for another choice.” “Well just think about this other choice, anyway. I think you’ll like it better.”
“Do you think I don’t know there are other choices available? I found the one I want.” “I’m sure you think so, but if you look at this choice from a different angle, you might realize that this particular one is better.”
No matter how nice the new option is or how politely it is offered, it’s still annoying, bordering on rude and insulting to keep offering it after he made his position known.
Yes, he can tell Joyce no, has the agency to make that choice, but why should he have to? He shouldn’t be put in the position to do so, and the only reason he potentially will be is because Joyce is ignoring what he said he wanted.
I think I see what you’re saying better now indeed. Part of my confusion comes from using agency differently (I think at least, from what I read).
For me it means being able to make your own choices; for you there seems to also be the idea that no one should question them. Did I understand correctly?
I do agree that offering alternatives after you’ve stated a position can be annoying, although I’m not convinced it *has* to be, or that it’s wrong per se.
There’s still something I’m struggling with though.
DISCLAIMER, cause we all know things can get heated over details when communicating in writing 🙂 :
-you seemed to imply I said Raidah’s not nice and Joyce is and that justifies things – I did not.
-the following questions are generalizing the issue; they do not imply anything as to the state of things Jacob
Here Jacob has made a choice that is not dangerous for himself (please don’t get tangled in detail about whether Raidah will be wrong for him, I’m just saying being with her is as good a choice as any) ;
if he had made a choice that could be considered a “bad” one – not in the moral sense but as in “bad for him”, like using meth or going on a crash diet that were potentially harmful, would you still consider it wrong to try to subvert is agency (‘Hey, what about therapy’ or ‘Maybe take in a few nutrients?’) ?
It’s a candid question; I’d like to know whether you consider agency to be sacro-sanct, or whether you think it should have limits (even beyond the usually agreed ones that “your freedom stops where mine begins”).
Because what disturbs me is that if you don’t say anything, you’re letting your friend down; if you do you’re “subverting their agency”.
What is the justification? That their decision comes from them being in a bad place at a given time? What if it comes form them being mentally ill? Shouldn’t mentally ill people have the exact same right to freedom as everybody else?
And then there’s yet another issue, which is that all we know of Jacob’s decision to be with Raidah is that he made it at some point in the past.
There’s plenty of people who stay in relationships because it’s easier (NOT saying it’s the case here).
Hence the other question: can we assume that anyone *in* a long-term situation (here a relationship but really anything else works – a job, living in a given city, studying to become a doctor) is actually choosing it, and not going with the flow?
(Again, general question. Jacob can’t have been with Raidah for more than a couple of months? Since he’s a freshman. So it doesn’t entirely apply to the situation. I’m just getting interested in philosophical reasoning)
“Agency” isn’t the word I’d use to describe any of this, but:
I think there’s a huge difference between trying to break up a couple because you want one of them and trying to break up a couple because you’ve got good reason to think it’s abusive or otherwise actively bad for one of them. The same applies to pretty much any choices, with some kind of balance between how serious the choice is (romantic partner is pretty serious, where to go for lunch not so much) and how bad it looks.
I guess you could assume any long-term relationship is just “going with the flow”, but at the same time we also tend to assume a long-term relationship is a more serious one. Working off that argument we could assume trying to break up a 30 year marriage is less problematic than a brand new couple on their first dates. Which doesn’t seem right.
Like everything, there are no absolutes. It’s all a balance of priorities. Not mucking with other people’s relationships without good reasons is generally a good idea though.
Yep. I guess my problem is that I’m forever trying to reconcile theory and practice and that life isn’t really self-consistent. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Sorry for the late reply.
I feel like the more I try to explain myself, the less clear things become.
You ask am I saying never question a person’s choice? No.
First there are no absolutes.
Second, I wouldn’t mind if Joyce straight up stated her intentions and let him respond…once. I would take issue with repeated antics.
I don’t even mind the idea of Jacob cheating. I’ve cheated and been cheated on and have been involved with women who cheated with me on someone else. I feel relationships where someone cheats have to do with issues between the partners.
What I don’t like in this situation is the scheming.
Be straight up when you’re doing something wrong (outside of committing some complicated crime like a heist or assassination). If she told him she liked him and wanted to jump his bones and they decided to find a broom closet, I personally would be less bothered.
Also, there would be less fallout if he shot her down than finding out later that the woman he thought was a friend was just another person viewing him as a sex object and also actively trying to interfere in his life (I’m in the group of people who think you can’t be JUST friends when one person wants to see the other person naked).
Basically, I see this situation as Jacob thought he had a friend when in reality they were plotting against him. That the plot involves a romantic relationship between him and Joyce is secondary to that.
Side note — This discussion thread is so long, I almost forgot I started it.
It makes me a bit happy as I believe this is my first long one (even if a lot of the discussion is because of my word choice).
Thanks for taking the time to answer 🙂
Well not that I condone anything that Joyce is doing but I can see why. She’s a horny teenager and her fundie upbringing has probably repressed her when it comes to feelings of desire.
Thats all well and good but what would she actually allow herself to do with Jacob?
Some hot and heavy hand holding, lustful gazes, kissing with tongues even, Joyce really needs to sort her head out first before anything else
I dunno, all of those sound good to me. And we know Joyce mainly lusts after romance anyway so I think she’d be okay with it. Not to mention Jacob has also said something along the lines of sex not being important (can’t remember exact quote and am on mobile) so I think they would be able to prevent each other from doing anything too rash.
IIRC, Jacob said he’s looking for a committed relationship, not a quick fling (much to Sarah’s disappointment).
There was something in there about how he doesn’t like being seen as a sexual object as well, right?
That was in a different conversation (one in which both Joe and Joyce were part of), but yeah, that too.
*faints from the lewdness*
As a former horny-teenager-from-a-fundie-upbringing, yeah that’s pretty much it. I mean you eventually round the bases but it takes a lot of time compared to you other heathens.
I have a pretty strong suspicion it wouldn’t take Joyce very long at all. Especially with a boyfriend who didn’t push, but also wasn’t going to reject her outright.
She practically threw herself at Ethan at one point – who of course wasn’t interested in catching her.
Mind you, there’d be tons of guilt and self-blame and “what have I done” afterwards.
Aww, Dorothy loves her friend
Moral/ethical reasons aside, Joyce is choosing to naively play a dirty game, and Raidah as we’ve seen, has more tricks up her sleave than Joyce can hope to muster.
Among all the other things Joyce hasn’t thought all the way through is, even if this all goes just how she wants it to, how her parents will react to her coming home with a black Episcopalian boyfriend.
I don’t recall the Browns ever acting explicitly racist, but I can pretty much promise you they’re “we don’t have any active conscious dislike of black people but are still very uncomfortable around them” at best, never mind that to lots of Evangelicals, anyone who isn’t Evangelical isn’t “really Christian”.
We know that when her mom met Sarah she “couldn’t wait” to tell the community that Joyce wasn’t racist.
Which is….pretty odd to say the absolute least
I’m sure Raidah has considered making that point to Kacob too.
Carol was pretty happy when she discovered that Joyce had made a black friend, so that she could tell everyone on the street that her daughter isn’t a racist. That’s the most I think we’ve seen about their attitude towards people of color. Hank seems much more open in general, certainly in regards to Becky’s sexual orientation, so I think he would be less likely than Carol to object about Jacob’s race. That said, there are definitely people out there who seem totally fine riiiight up until it comes to interracial relationships, for whatever reason.
I don’t know what either of them would think about Episcopalians, though. I think my prediction that Hank will have less of an issue than Carol also applies here, but without knowing where Carol would stand on the issue, that “less than” might not mean very much in practice.
I don’t think her dad would particularly mind. Her mom though…
Keep in mind that relatively-open-minded Joyce was freaking out about Jacob’s church being “too Catholic”…
And that was AFTER she got over the fact that it was a “Hippie church”
Hank probably wouldn’t think much of it, but Carol would probably drop plenty of casually racist “one of the ‘good ones'” type comments.
re: Jacob’s religion: We’d get to see the Carol version of the Shocked Joyce Face, so there’s that…
Nah, she’d want to parade him around as proof she’s not racist.
While also probably making casually racist if ‘well meaning’ comments, yes.
Whitman reference! Yay, hovertext!
Cool! The atheist is about to lecture theFundamentalist Christian on morality and ethics. This should be fun. And educational.
It is notoriously difficult to read nuance in short text, but you seem to be implying that atheists don’t have, or know very little about, morality and ethics. If so, I can assure you that you are mistaken.
I could be wrong, but in most contexts, people who approve of fundamentalist Christian ethics refrain from sticking “fundamentalist” in the front there.
Nah. I want to see just how Dorothy is going to frame and justify whatever objections she has to whatever she perceives Joyce has in mind re: Jacob and Raidah.
Well, a really, really easy way would be to quote Terry Pratchett/Granny Weatherwax.
“And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is. ”
“It’s a lot more complicated than that . . .”
“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”
“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes . . .”
“But they starts with thinking about people as things.”
Granny Weatherwax and Samuel Vimes are forever moral compasses.
I KNEW she would know that it wasn’t cool! Wait, what?!
Dorothy is mad at her because her strength is her weakness, but also struggles because she feels like she lacks that ability.
And that pisses Dorothy off EXTRA when Joyce uses that power things JOYCE KNOWS IS WRONG COME ON JOYCE DON’T FEIGN INNOCENCE YOU KNEW YOU WERE WRONG IN PANEL TWO THIS ISN’T THE TAKE AWAY YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE FROM JOE
Aw, Dorothy says she loves Joyce! Good friendship!
Awwww
Right?
I’d say “gay” but they are ACTUALLY just gals being pals.
Which, is a rare twist!
I feel like I say this a lot, but every single Joyce expression here is great.
Blue eyes on maximum force.
Of all of the characters, Willis has really master the nuance of expressions with her
Two wrongs don’t make a right, Joyce.
The issue here is to make Joyce understand that what she’s doing is wrong. I’m not convinced that she’s aware of this as yet.
On some level she is – the justifications she’s been using to Dorothy show that. She’s not using the defenses some here are to claim there’s nothing wrong at all.
She’s just overwhelmed by the crush and with those justifications and her lack of modeling for healthy relationship behavior she’s all in anyways.
I friggin’ love this background. Very beautiful and lends itself well to dramatic strips (I’m pretty sure the “original sin” strip was at the same location).
I also love that Joyce – after a pretty harsh put-down from Dorothy – DOESN’T say “screw you guys, I’m going home.” She hurries after Dorothy to continue the conversation. That’s the second thing Dorothy could have said about Joyce – she never gives up on people.
That might be in part her anxiety being outside alone, but yeah mostly her love for dotty
FWIW, I suspect that Joyce is having an issue of moral dissonance here. She has been taught since infancy that selfishness and covetousness is wrong. However, right now, she’s confronting lust and desire for the first time so she’s subconsciously trying to create a moral construct to justify what is an entirely selfish course of action in order to maintain her self-image as a good girl.
Oh yeah, it’s dissonance plus Avril Lavigne’s ‘Girlfriend’ all over the place in Joyce’s mind. (Was Joyce allowed to listen to Avril Lavigne?)
The saddest thing about this is Joyce was motivated by the fact Joe said she could get Jacob if she wanted to. That she didn’t go after him because her self esteem was too low to think she could attract him.
And now she has lower morals then joe
How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of Being and ideal Grace.
I love thee to the level of everyday’s
Most quiet need, by sun and candlelight.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with the passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood’s faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints,—I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life!—and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.
He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
That dares not put it to the touch
To gain or lose it all.
lol no homo but I’d probably try to romance him too XD
Somethin’ wrong with homo, pal?
Youtube taught me that “no homo” is what a closet case says when hes down for some Homo-erotic hiJinx .
got a problem with me making a joke about jacob turning straight men’s heads?
If Jacob’s turning a ‘straight’ man’s head, that man miiiight just be bi – the Kinsey scale exists for a reason, despite its imperfections.
Ethan is full homo and has the very same problem.
All bad things aside, at least Joyce is starting to be honest with her Lust.
His name is Legion, for he is many.
It pisses me off how shameless Joyce is, she’s not course correcting when she gets a verbal slap in the face from her best/second best friend, she’s just doubling down on her awfulness
She’s answering honestly, and will probably come to realise what she’s doing.
She got that slap in the face ten seconds ago. Let her sleep on it!
Joyce. Joe has more morals then you right now….JOE
Joe has always been relatively moral when it comes to sex and sexual relationships. He clearly understands consent: he pursues people who seem interested in him and stops when told that they aren’t. He doesn’t cheat, nor does he help others cheat- in fact, he views cheating as something really bad, unlike Joyce, who doesn’t seem to understand why intentionally trying to seduce someone in a relationship is wrong. The “Do list” was creepy and objectifying, and Joe does view women as sex objects, but that’s not because he’s a misogynist- he views himself as a sex object as well. There’s nothing wrong with two consenting people hooking up despite not having a deep emotional attraction. I don’t think Joe has ever harmed someone intentionally in the context of a sexual or romantic relationship, and when he was told he wronged people unintentionally, he put a lot of effort into making amends.
I agree with this, EXCEPT that I must add the qualifier that Joe believes (believed?) it was ok to use alcohol as a “consent” lubricant (there’s a reason I put consent between inverted commas).
In general Joe seemed to believe in consent as a goal to be achieved, or perhaps more accurately in lack of consent as a problem to overcome.
Or at least his persona did. It’s hard to tell since much of his thing was in fact performance – boasting about creepy things he didn’t actually do. The comment about alchohol helping was with threesomes, which he later admitted he hadn’t actually had. So it’s hard to say where his real moral boundaries were.
He certainly had no problem approaching women and hitting on them repeatedly until or unless he was forcefully rejected. And then even after claiming to accept the rejection, he’d continue to comment.
I feel like Joe’s issue his the lack of nuance in his understanding of consent. Like he won’t contest an explicit “No” but anything short of that he seems to see as negotiable.
And even with the explicit “Nos”, he’ll still circle back around to make comments – see Sarah, Joyce, Rachel.
Joe IS just like Joyce: neither particularly cares about other people’s boundaries.
I feel like IRL Dotty would ignore it just as much as in-comic Dotty. It’s hard to get elected if something like that gets under your skin so easily.
Why?
I have a feeling Dotty will try and bring in Joe here to cut Joyce off.
dorothy and joe: the team up I never knew I needed
While I do hope this conversation is all Joyce needs to stop pursuing Jacob like this, I still hope we get to see more of Jacob. I’m curious about Harrison and what he’s like in person, but also I just kind of enjoy the sorts of scenes Jacob ends up in!
Gotta wonder if Harrison has some sort of past history with Carla, and if his appearance will mean more Carla.
This webcomic needs more Carla. And Leslie. What’s she been up to?
Carla doesn’t strike me as a political type, so I doubt she’d know Harrison. But it’s not impossible, and I’d take an excuse to see her again!
Leslie… has been having good times with Anna? Maybe? Hopefully? Also would enjoy seeing her again!
I realize that I’m in the minority but I can’t be the only one to find Sarah to be a petty and kind of awful person.
I think Sarah considers herself to be a petty and kind of awful person.
That said, I think even she’d be a little taken aback by Joyce trying to steal Jacob for purely selfish reasons.
That plus I doubt she’d handle a Joyce and Jacob couple as well as she thinks, which would further support her being petty and awful since that was her original plan.
Prediction: Joyce is the impetus for Raidah’s downfall, in that Jacob starts to see what a vitrolic person that she is in comparison. Joyce, on the other hand, will then do something stupid afterwards which will lead to her own downfall, and all three people will be miserable.
Then in steps Sarah followed by her own downfall.
Wow, cute covers for a lot of sins, I but other people’s?
I’m not saying that it would change Dorothy’s opinion, but I wonder if it would have been helpful to Joyce to have Given more details than just “Mean to Sarah/Dina doesn’t like her”. Going into some details about how Raidah has gone out of her way to harass Sarah, or how Raidah was condescending to Dina might make Joyce out to be less of a villain.
She could also talk about how her original plan was to match Sarah with Jacob.
Not saying that it would make Dorothy approve of Joyce trying to steal Jacob, but it would at least highlight Joyce’s concerns and make it more than just “one malcontent not liking another”.
Joyce doesn’t necessarily know about the details of the Sarah/Raidah feud, and she’s been condescending to Dina herself in the past.
Actually I think sarah told her the details of the fued when they ran into rhaidah at the mall. And while it is true that Joyce was rude/condescending at the party, in my opinion she has altered her ways.
On the other hand Rhiadah is just as condescending and abusive now as when we first saw her.
By “details”, I was referring to things like Raidah’s past harassment of Sarah. Joyce is aware of how their feud started.
“He contains multitudes.”
Like each and every individually defined ab, for example.
Hi I’m Dorothy, the morality superior. Never did a shitty thing!
“Nobody should ever hold anybody accountable for anything because nobody is morally pure and thus nobody is allowed to judge anyone else.”
“Let he who is without sin throw the first stone. ”
Of course, there’s a minor difference between being critical of a friend you love and stoning someone to death.
The word your looking for is “Sanctimonious.” But no she’s not really in wrong here.
“Hi I’m Saaaam, and I’m judging someone for judging, which isn’t hypocritical at all.”
Say, this game is fun.
Interesting detail, Joyce’s last line is “You’ve SEEN him” and not “You’ve MET him.” Intentionally or not, she’s just admitted to being at least somewhat aware of her…yearnings…
Does kinda wanting Joyce and Jacob to be a thing make me a bad person?
Yup, Dorothy lost the high ground right good and I look forward to her eventual downward spiral.
“How dare you be open to love? I mean, yes, you haven’t actually done anything to sabotage the relationship he’s in, but how dare you hope the person you have feelings for will realize their own feelings and choose you back? I mean…I thought you had so much LOVE!!!”
Until Joyce does something more than be friendly with hopes, she has done nothing wrong. Jacob gets to choose. Not Dorothy. Not Raidah. Not Joyce. JACOB gets to choose who he would be happiest with, and if that person chooses him back then that’s that. Regardless of if that person is the person he happens to be with right now.
And yet somehow Joyce doesn’t make the argument you did – that she’s doing nothing wrong. She makes excuses for it – “God means it to be” yesterday and “but Raidah’s mean” today.
I could be wrong. I’m not always right about predicting where the story is going to go, but I don’t see any downward spiral for Dorothy here. I think the various cues we’ve seen in the strip so far are pointing towards Dorothy being validated and Joyce learning a lesson about boundaries and about her screwed up notions of romance.
But I could be wrong. I’m seeing it through my filter, which basically aligns with Dorothy’s – messing with other people’s relationships is bad. That could lead me to misread things. Confirmation bias is a great drug.
Try to put aside your own opinions on the morality of it all for a moment. What do people see in the story itself that makes them think Joyce is going to be validated here? That Willis is on board the “Joyce is doing nothing wrong” wagon?
You may be right the story isn’t finished and it could end up going in that direction. I just find it frustrating because I agree with Shadlyn. Joyce hasn’t done anything wrong yet she hasn’t even been all that mean to Raidah. All Joyce really should have to say to Dorothy is that she likes Jacob. Since Jacob hasn’t said or indicated that he finds Joyce’s behavior towards him inappropriate it’s perfectly fine.
Silence is not consent. Jacob pretty obviously has no clue what’s going on here.
Intent to do wrong is still doing wrong.
While I would argue that ahat Joyce has been doing is doing something wrong, even if you disagree, you can’t deny her intent because she admits to it.
Now if you don’t think a plan to do something wrong is in itself wrong, then we are at an impasse.
And that’s the difference. That’s the point we disagree on.
I think Joyce is doing something wrong. Already. So does Dorothy. So did Joe, though it was more theoretical back then.
I suspect that Willis does too and I’m pretty sure that the story arc will bear that out – though you raise the possibility that it won’t do so until she goes enough further that everyone will see she’s doing wrong, which will likely leave the issue confused. Still I expect what she’s likely to learn from it is about boundaries and about not messing with people’s relationships, not just about not being too mean when you do so.
I could be wrong, but you haven’t presented me anything to suggest the narrative isn’t pointing to her already being in the wrong. Just your opinion that what she’s done so far is fine.
Oh lord I forgot we live in the hellish reality where holding people accountable for doing bad things is considered worse than doing bad things.
It’s a sad reality we live in, I’m right there with you.
To be fair, though that is the reality we live in, gods help us all, I don’t think that’s what’s going on here.
There’s just a sizable group that thinks Joyce is doing nothing wrong and thus Dorothy is out of line calling her out. That hitting on people in relationships is perfectly fine and maybe even a good thing to do.
It’s completely alien to me, I don’t get it at all, but I’ve been convinced over the last couple days there’s just a huge gap of understanding I can’t bridge.
That gap of understanding kinda reminds me of an argument I had long ago… I don’t even remember what it was over, but at some point the guy said “it’s like if your partner threw out all your old socks and bought you more professional ones. You’d be happy they helped you, right?” And no, I wouldn’t be happy, I’d probably dump someone pretty quick if they pulled a stunt like that. But apparently he’d be happy if someone did that to/for him.
Sometimes people have really different standards of behaviour. I’m not quite sure what to make of that.
Wow, that’s kind of a giant red flag for me. Dictating what you can wear is super troubling behaviour in an SO.
I dunno. I hate clothes shopping. As long as they weren’t pushing too drastic a style change on me, I could go for it. 🙂
I’d rather they asked first though.
It’s the dumping out your old clothes part that makes the difference between a nice gesture and a controlling one to me.
Exactly. The guy’s point was that taking away belongings someone likes, without warning, is a *good* thing when you believe those belongings make them look less professional. I disagree with that point very strongly.
As someone on the other side of that gap of understanding: yes, I agree, this is apparently just a huge confusing difference in how people think about respecting someone’s agency and capacity to make choices.
I can respect someone’s agency, and part of the reason I had issues with Sarah’s original plans with Joyce were that she was disrespecting Joyce and Jacob’s choices in the manner. Can Jacob make his own choices? Obviously. But I think people are right when they point out that he’s made his choice and it is Raidah. No, they aren’t married. Yes, the relationship is only a couple of weeks old. But their relationship is their business and shouldn’t be meddled with by people who aren’t involved.
I’ve also seen people insisting that Joyce should take care of her needs and act on her feelings, which is still misunderstanding the situation. She hasn’t been clear and honest with Jacob. She isn’t subtle, it’s true. But Jacob obviously doesn’t fully realize she’s flirting/interested. Plus, I’ve personally been witness to experiences where people interfere with other, completely happy and healthy relationships just because they want one of the partners.
I’m about 95% sure that the gap isn’t about “respecting someone’s agency and capacity to make choices.”
I suspect a lot of the gap is that that isn’t at all how I think about these things and that’s why there’s little common ground for discussion.
“Dorothy, you’ve seen him. He has heretofore undiscovered nucleotides which help spell out ‘hanky-panky me’.”
I understand why people are upset but you can’t steal someone from a relationship. Especially one that’s been going on for just a few weeks. Jacob will figure out who he wants to be with, and it’s for him to decide.
Uh, you kinda just demonstrated that you don’t understand.
He already did decide. That’s what a monogamous relationship is: a standing decision that one expects people to respect. If he was open to other partners he’d be in an open relationship.
I understand just fine; I just don’t agree. There’s a difference. People are upset because they have an exaggerated belief in the self-control of an 18-year-old under the influence of romantic attraction, coupled with a downright romantic belief in the sanctity of as-yet uncommitted relationships. Joyce is making a fool of herself for Jacob, and that’s something people do sometimes. Jacob isn’t exactly fending her off. He can clarify things anytime he wants to, but so far he does not appear to want to.
Relationships don’t run on autopilot. In a sense people decide every day. Over time, more and more investment is made. I’ve been deciding to stay with my wife, and she with me, for the last 37 years. Met all kind of challenges. And I give other people room to be foolish, because we’re not machines.
Perhaps it’s semantics or a misunderstanding, but there’s a difference between your first post and this one. Or at least in the context of the discussions going on here today. The first implies there’s nothing wrong with what Joyce’s doing – “can’t steal someone from a relationship”, “it’s for Jacob to decide”. The second implies Joyce is doing something wrong, but understandably – under the influence of her crush.
Personally, I’m not upset with Joyce. I might be if I was their age and involved in the drama, but she’s young and foolish and getting called out on crap like this or having it blow up in your face is how you learn.
I do think you shouldn’t mess with other people’s relationships, however uncommitted you think they are. I don’t think that’s a “romantic belief in their sanctity”, whatever the hell that means. More a pragmatic one of keeping your nose out of their business.
I am more puzzled than anything by the stark difference in attitudes on this. Some have more nuance, but there seems to be a large camp that puts no blame on anyone trying to break up couples – or at least judges only on the tactics they use. It’s very weird to me.
I can see that. Just in my own self I can look at this story line three or four different ways. I can agree one shouldn’t nose in on another person’s relationship. On the other hand a relationship that could be sunk by a little light flirting maybe should be. On the other, other hand, I challenge anyone to always appear rational while in the whelming flood of a crush. On the other, other, other hand, Jacob is flirting right back, while Raidah is treating Joyce very badly. And Dorothy could just smirk and say; “You know, you’re making a fool of yourself, right?” instead of acting like it’s a huge moral crisis. And so on. I can’t help thinking what I was like at that age.
And that’s just me. I kinda lost count but there’s about two dozen people commenting on this thread. What should Joyce do differently? In other words what’s the “right” thing here? I think the “no flirting” rule on display in this thread is kind of sterile and robotic, and others clearly feel it is an essential boundary.
My prediction is Jacob will break up with Raidah, she’ll blame Joyce (with some justification) but overlooking her own behavior, and Joyce will end up feeling like an idiot and apologizing all over the place.
Dorothy’s stoma in the second to last panel is looking healthy
…I’ll admit I don’t really see the issue with liking someone and wanting them to like you back, so long as you’re willing to back off if the answer is no. If she was trying to get him to cheat on raidah I’d say that’s bad but I’m pretty sure her end goal is for him to stop his relationship with raidah and start one up with her. And I sincerely doubt those two have made any long term commitments that he would be turning his back on if he dumped her because he found someone he liked better, it’s a few weeks dating not a marriage.
I agree. Joyce hasn’t asked him to dump raidah, hasn’t asked him out, hasn’t done anything past flirting. And while that’s not exactly the best thing to do, it’s hardly the worst as many people are saying.
Sure her intentions aren’t pure, but whose are?