No, actually… puritanical would be her trying to convince Joyce not to pursue worldly lust. What Dorothy is proposing is just simply moral. To hurt somebody for your own gain is not ethical or moral.
No, but she knows that Joyce’s IS. That’s the point.
In general, people who renege on commitments easily don’t suddenly and spontaneously leave that habit behind.
If Joyce were happy with short-term hook-ups, or casual dating with multiple people, then Dorothy wouldn’t be making this argument. But she (and we) know Joyce better–the one thing that would be absolutely certain to devastate her would be a boyfriend cheating on her.
I wonder if the other ‘Power of Love’ might not be more accurate to where Joyce is…
“Ay, ay, ay, ay
Feels like fire
I’m so in love with you
Dreams are like angels
They keep bad at bay, bad at bay
Love is the light
Scaring darkness away”
No. He told her she shouldn’t, which she understood to mean that she could. And if she could, the only way that could happen is if it was True Love. Cause that’s how it works in the movies.
… B-between last comic and now, how they come out of the shade in panels 5~6? Coinciding with Joyce’s defense hitting a snag? Maybe I’m reaching, but I just like the juxtaposition of the change in shading and that beat panel!
Joyce stated, in this very strip, “[Joe said that] he’ll leave her for me and no one else because of the power of our love.”
When put into the context of the current conversation, with Dorothy asking Joyce how she knows Jacob won’t leave her too, how is that not fabricating what Joe said?
I think it’s not so much a fabrication as a mis-remembering of the conversation. I know I’m guilty of remembering things more in my favor, but I may be a bit… weird… idk…
‘Mis-remembering’ is a very innocent word for ‘I made up a conversation whole cloth to justify the things I want to do while pinning the blame on someone I know people are predisposed to think is awful’ though.
The issue is with ‘whole cloth’. Joyce has a very powerful set of filters on her world-view. These often warp her basic interpretations of things.
She sincerely desires to be Jacob’s One and Only. In her rose-colored view of True Love, if you can be ‘stolen’ from someone else, then it wasn’t True Love to begin with. And since (again, in her view) True Love is always, ALWAYS reciprocal, if she loves Jacob, and they get together, then that means he loves her too. Which means that the relationship with Raidah couldn’t have been True Love. And if Joe believes that she has a chance to get Jacob, then that means she possesses the tools to acquire True Love with him.
Is it a horribly naive, and likely self-destructive world-view? Ayup. But it’s not one maliciously constructed to bypass her own moral imperatives (the way that, oh, virtually anything Mary says or does is).
Thank Disney for that one. Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, Pocahontas, and so many more all taught that the one he or she is going to marry is wrong for him or her and just plain evil, and that the main character is always good and should break up the relationship.
Not that this is exclusive to Disney, but it’s such a widely used trope in movies that are specifically aimed at little girls in their most highly impressionable stages.
@Wright: Not that it puts a downer on the rest of your point, but IIRC Joyce specifically stated once that she wasn’t allowed to watch Disney movies growing up (as they “promote the idea of happiness without God”).
Of course not. And of course Jacob is no cheater. He’s pure and strong and sexy. Since he’s not like that, the only way Joyce could win him, like Joe says she can is if it’s True Love. Like in the movies.
She’s not actually making it up or misremembering what he said, she’s running it through her own screwed up perception filter and reaching a meaning he never intended.
Also, Joe never said that Jacob would stay with you forever, Joyce. All he said was that what you were doing – trying to take him away from Raidah – had a chance of working.
Dorothy’s argument is also bullshit because Jacob leaving Raidah because he likes Joyce more is HOW DATING WORKS. You find someone who is the best match for you and you commit to them.
Yes and no. There are people who are way more likely to leave you for another partner than others. Unlike once a cheater, a one time occurrence is not enough to make pattern out of it, but do yourself a favor and stay away from people who make a habit of switching partners. You’ll be switched , too.
There is some truth in it, though. People who choose their partner carefully usually don’t do that. First, you switch partners for someone you consider better, so your first one was, most likely, a bad decision you didn’t really think through. Second, a person in a happy relationship with a person he/she really loves is less likely to fall in love with another person. Nature took care of that.
So, a “stealable” person often had a casual relationship before. Which doesn’t mean he/she will think like this about the next one, but it does mean casual relationships are a thing he/she does. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but if you are looking for a husband, it’s a thing to keep in mind.
I agree. No one can “steal” anyone. If Joe breaks up with Raidah and starts to date Joyce, that’s on Joe. It could be because he realizes he genuinely likes Joyce better than Raidah, or it could be because his relationship with Raidah isn’t very deep in the first place and hey, Joyce seems more fun. If Jacob were committed to Raidah, Joyce wouldn’t stand a chance.
As Raidah said when she and Jacob were discussing her lack of jealousy, maybe Raidah’s lucky to be rid of him because he doesn’t deserve her if he’s so easily distracted.
Of course, I think that conversation is coming back to bite her because it’s not that she was not the jealous type, it’s that she never felt threatened before. She’s def feeling a little green-eyed.
I just need to point out that simply changing partners isn’t cheating. It’s only cheating if you keep it a secret from one or both (or more) that you are seeing the other person.
Jacob seems like the type that would break up with Raidah before dating Joyce, should he decide he wants to pursue that.
Also, I don’t care how careful you are about who you choose, unless you have inside information (i.e. have known them for a long time or are friends with someone who has) who they appear to be when you first start dating and who they actually are can be very different. Also, especially when you are younger, you simply realize that what you thought you wanted isn’t what you actually need. Most relationships don’t work out and that isn’t a matter of preparation, it’s just the reality of testing compatibility with people.
Exactly my point 😉 and exactly why I knew each of my partners for months before starting to date them. I want to know that their personality matches mine. I’m not the type of person for casual dating (as in “just try and see what happens”).Coincidentally, I’ve never been switched and I’ve never switched my partners.
Choosing carefully takes time. It’s not done in a few days. It’s not a guarantee for a lasting relationship but you weed out the short and casual ones. I prefer that. Saves me a lot of heartache, and a lot of drama.
Something like this was the point I was trying to make yesterday with everyone falling in love should have someone else around who’s also interested in them. It makes them choose more consciously who they want to be with.
I agree with the sentiment that people tend to go as they come. If you find the ex of your partner didn’t know she was an ex when you and your partner started something, it’s likely you will be informed of being ex after your partner started something with someone else.
In my experience, most people decide who to be involved with based on who they have feelings for/pushes their buttons, not who is the best match.
While best match can be about matching feelings, it has connotations of who makes the most money, best job, etc. It just comes off a bit mercenary and while plenty do, a lot of people don’t date like that.
Well that feels like that would only apply for couples who are too green to be considered a full blown relationship.For a couple that’s been together for a while it would turn heads to know that someone could easily drop their long time significant other so easily just because they’ve been getting along better with someone new.
It mostly takes some drama a lot longer than Jacob and Raidah have even been together, but it happens all the time.
Especially in relationships that have run on dry times sexually, as far as things went where I knew one or both of the original couple well enough to hear the fallout.
Except by that approach you never actually know the best match, since someone better could always come along so you never really commit. You’re always on the lookout for someone who might be better. Which often means you’re likely to jump around a lot, because it’s easy to see the shiny new person whose flaws you don’t know yet as better.
The alternate approach is finding someone you like (and who likes you) and seeing how it goes. Then you can stick with them as long as it’s a good thing without keeping an eye out constantly to see if something better might be passing by. And if it isn’t working out, you can always break up even without having someone else waiting for you.
So no, in my experience that’s not at all how dating works. At least not when you’ve gone beyond the first couple get to know you dates and have decided you’re actually in an exclusive relationship.
Yeah, I mean, not to make a fictional story about me (or any other real life person), but I’ve broken up with someone because another person seemed more attractive / better personality match / more sexually compatible / right here as opposed to far away.
Were the people I dumped my exes for trying to “seduce” me, or were they just being friendly + flirty, and I figured it was worth a shot because my current relationship was lacking in some way?
I dunno, some people commit right away, but to me, until my relationship is so close to perfect that I can’t fathom how anyone else might be better– OR until I make a serious, out-loud commitment to stick with it through the hard times (trust me, haven’t made that choice yet, even if certain exes would argue otherwise)–then, yeah, I’m gonna break up with someone when I feel lonely / bored /worried, and a new person makes me feel loved / excited / safe.
So, yeah, that doesn’t make me a bad person. A lot of people are like that. I’ve had eleven significant others in thirteen years; relationships last from a month or so to two years.
And, like, if I’m defensive, it’s because it seems like a site full of commenters accepting of different relationship and sexual styles (LGBT- yes! Polyamory- f-yeah! Ruth/Billie trying to turn around an initially emotionally abusive relationship– go for it!) but then suddenly there’s a lot of moral judgement around a relationship style that is not better or worse than any other. I have straight-up asked someone to break up with her g/f for me, because I don’t do “other woman” sh*t, and she did and we had an amazing time. So you’re going to say “no judgement” to polyamory but judge monogamy when someone legit plays by monogamy rules and breaks up prior to dating / canoodling with someone else?
I’m sorry but that’s an impossible moral standard to reach. Like, unless everyone is from a courtship culture or betrothal culture, in which case dumping someone to date someone else really is a BFD. But in regular secular American culture, yes, actually, people break up with a current partner to date someone new who caught their eye literally all the time.
seems like it’d be important to mention up-front that you don’t do long-term relationships, since that’s something a lot of people want (and will assume you want, just as they’ll assume monogamy unless that’s discussed).
Except this isn’t about a “relationship style”. Certainly not yours.
There’s no indication that Jacob’s approach to relationship’s is like yours. Or that he’s communicated it to Raidah if it is. Which as Inahc suggests would be a good idea, because “We’re dating, but I’m going keep flirting and looking around and if I find someone I like better, I’m going for it. Don’t worry, I’ll break up with you before doing anything, so it’s still monogamy.”? That’s not really the default expectation. Or at least not openly the default expectation. People often worry about their partner behaving like that – whether they’ll be left at any moment.
Raidah’s approach clearly isn’t that. She’s in full “neutralize the threat sniffing around my man” mode.
Joyce isn’t even like that. I mean, she’s rationalizing it now, since it’s too her advantage, but “this is going to be a one time thing. He’ll leave her for me and no one else because of the Power of our Love.”
That doesn’t really sound like your approach either.
If Joyce had straight up gone to Jacob and asked him, instead of getting into this bullshit showdown with Raidah, I’d have a lot less problem with her.
It’s tragic Joyce only went after Jacob because Joe said that she could get him as it implies she didn’t think she was worthy of him before. It means Joyce has really shitty self esteem.
Mind you, Joe would be the one most disgusted with this plan because he holds relationships sacrosanct. It’s, ironically, why Joe doesn’t get into one.
If you call her thinking Jacob was out of her league really shifty self esteem, then yeah. I’m enjoying seeing a Joyce with the confidence Joe gave her.
King Solomon? Does that mean Jacob’s going to be cut in half so that Joyce and Raidah both get a fair share or am I thinking of the wrong biblical king?
He’s going to threaten it, and then one of them (it’s supposed to be one of them) will concede, showing they care more for the subject being threatened with bisection and therefore love/deserve them more.
Like, in the original it was a very young child that been abducted after the abducter accidentally smothered their VYC, so this entire situation is a bit nutty.
it kind of plays like a punchline because it’s in the last panel, but this does actually say a lot of what joyce thinks of joe’s opinion in a weird way
Well at least Dorothy is trying to dissuade Joyce and it seem that Joyce can tell her excuses amount to her just grasping at straws. Like c’mon, she’s using Joe as her excuse.
I don’t care for Dorothy’s argument here. It takes as a condition Jacob’s moral weakness and implicitly condones Joyce’s actions were she taking this particularly consequence into consideration.
That said, the only issue I have here is a little bit of her duplicity. Let Joyce be an adult, Dorothy. Jeez.
…there’s a really big difference between ending a relationship you’re in versus trying to end a relationship someone else is in because you don’t like it or you want to be in it. Whether her reasons are romantic or pragmatic is beside the point; what Joyce is doing is wildly inappropriate.
How does it imply he doesn’t like Raidah that much?
It might just imply he’s easily swayed by the next pretty, flirty girl that wanders by?
Which, statistically, is more likely to be true. The guy who easily drops one relationship for another, is more likely to do so again. Which isn’t what Joyce is looking for.
The argument you’re making is basically the one Joyce is making: “It’s not the same because he doesn’t really like her, but I’ll be special. We’ll have the power of love.”
They’ve been dating for two weeks, dude, and he just got an eyeful of a Raidah that is objectively unlikeable. She’s petty. She’s rude. She’s got that materialistic streak that leads her to be dickish to education-majors.
They’re sophomores in college. Two weeks is fewer than five dates, and a couple evenings of watching netflix in each other’s dorm rooms. Two weeks also mean these revelations about her personality are probably pretty fresh.
Joyce’s intent is bad. Actively scheming to ruin someone’s relationship, for cheap sex or for Twoo Wuv, is Bad News. But her execution here isn’t terrible. Bear in mind, Joyce’s idea of flirting is basically “ordinary conversation, but with the top button of her conservative button-down loosened.” Joyce isn’t going to bring Jacob round back for blowjobs and pie.
I’m pretty sure he didn’t get “an eyeful of a Raidah that is objectively unlikeable.” I mean, I think it is, but I think it was subtle enough that if he didn’t see it from the viewpoint of “Raidah is going after the girl who’s flirting with me”, he could put a more favorable spin on it. I don’t think his reactions have been clear enough to be sure he’s unhappy with what she’s done.
At least you’re agreeing Joyce’s intent is bad. That’s the big object of debate around here these days.
That doesn’t even make sense. What’s Dorothy doing that’s inappropriate?
Ending her own relationships is bad, but trying to end someone else’s is fine? I don’t get it.
Or the advice? But then talking about Dorothy’s romantic or practical reasons doesn’t make any sense.
She’s trying to end end someone else’s relationship before it even starts because she doesn’t like it. Specifically she’s trying to impose her own private moral choices onto Joyce rather than accept Joyce as she is – something that Joyce was willing to do for her over the disapproval of her family.
This type of logic is horrible. So, if you see a friend doing or saying racist things, do you shut up and ‘accept them as they are’?
Joyce, right now, is doing something shitty. It’s commonly accepted that you don’t go after people in a committed relationship. Why the hell shouldn’t Dorothy call her out on it?
What I’ve learned over the last few days of comments (and further back in comments on strips in this arc) is that it’s not nearly so commonly accepted as I thought.
I really haven’t been able to figure out where the disconnect is. I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t think the two sides can really explain it too each other. I know, from what the other side has said about why they think I have a problem with it, that they don’t understand where I’m coming from at all. I know I can’t see their side either.
I think we can’t reason it out because we’re started from different assumptions. No one’s logic is faulty, but we’re using different axioms.
It’s a different priority on flirting in general, and Jacob and Raidah’s relationship specifically.
First, some people think that flirting is a big deal, and others don’t.
Some people think that taking action to break up a healthy relationship is bad, period.
Some people think that, if you’ve only been dating for two weeks, you’re still exploring, it’s hardly a relationship yet, so it’s fine.
Similarly-but-not-identically, some people think that flirting is fine up to a certain point of commitment (which Jacob and Raidah have not yet reached).
…what part of “he’s totally going to leave his girlfriend and be with me forever and ever and ever because it’s destined to be that way while having zero self-reflection on the morality of your actions” sounds like “being an adult” to you?
She’s making this argument because she thinks it will get *through* to Joyce. When constructing an argument, do you speak to what would convince yourself? No. You speak to what would convince your audience. Joyce is being selfish. Therefore, the best way to convince her to change her mind is to point out the logical end of her selfishness coming to fruition. It would not speak well to the character of either person involved.
There’s no duplicity, there’s only an argument from the perspective of the person she’s attempting to convince. It’s a very effective strategy, and the fact that by the end of it Joyce has fallen back on “the serial playboy told me so!” tells me that it’s working here, too.
Yeah this whole argument is an appeal to Joyce’s self interest not her sense of morals. Like it completely skirts the idea that what she is doing is bad and hurtful in favour of prioritizing how it could hurt her personally. Like, if that’s the only argument that will work on Joyce then she kind of completely fucking sucks.
Yes, instead of trying to impose her personal moral convinctions on her friend she’s bringing up considerations worth thinking about. If Jacob has had a succession of girlfriends who were jealous, there’s probably a reason they were jealous.
Dorothy has already tried reminding Joyce that what she’s doing is mean and found out Joyce is justifying herself with but Raidah was mean to my friend and besides I really want to.
Also the idea that a lack of loyalty is at least somewhat inherent in the person is new information to Joyce. Most of the moral stuff isn’t so much new as stuff she’s choosing to ignore.
Also the practical argument against Joyce’s actions is a back door to the moral argument. Dorothy is encouraging Joyce to mentally try on Raidah’s shoes even if its just because her ideal outcome puts her in them if Joyce thinks they still seem pretty nice
Panel #2: well Dorothy has a good argument there except the idea that it seems like Jacob and Raidah aren’t really in the deep of a relationship.It’s only been what a few weeks? Wait what am I talking about Raidah about the meet Jacob’s family so their kind of going steady.
Panel #3: LOW BLOW from Joyce, and in Dorothy’s defense maybe she went for him because he has more charm than most of their male friends ( low bar there because he’s competing with Joe and Mike) and Joyce herself considering everyone that Joyce seems to try to get close to like him better.
Panel #6: So is that a “Oh my God so you really are about to steal that girls boyfriend” or a “Oh my God I can’t believe your taking dating advice from Frikkin Joe.”
Yeah, we already had the “Oh my God so you really are about to steal that girls boyfriend” reaction.
Remember that Dorothy knows Joe from high school – though she hasn’t really seen that he’s changing and doesn’t really know about the connection he’s made with Joyce, so her opinion here is likely even worse than ours.
You mean like she had with Walky, that she broke up with him over because it was too much of a distraction.
I mean, she was putting eating and showering as too much of a distraction from schoolwork. I don’t think she needs another problem to solve. Any time spent on this will have to come directly out of sleep.
Or at least it will with her current approach.
Listen to your rationalist friend for once, Joyce: 1)Walky is a nice fellow, and you marry him in another universe, 2)it’s highly toxic to stalk every woman near your crush, and 3)Joe sucks at romance, you jerk!
Yknow I actually wonder how he would be if he tried romance. He’s always sworn it off because he didn’t want to end up cheating and hurting someone like his dad did (which already says something about him), but I’m really curious how it would be if after he got more comfortable with his emotions, he found someone he really liked and actually tried being a boyfriend
IIRC Joe explained Sarah’s true plan (that Joyce would cause Jacob to fall for her (Joyce)), and that he disapproved. This let Joyce know that Joe believed she had a chance, which was something of an epiphany for her, and markedly improved her self esteem.
Joe, of course was thinking of sex. But at this stage in Joyce’s enlightenment, it would not occur to her to think of anything other than marriage. So in her mind, Joe really did say there was True Love about to happen.
The thing is, Joe was kinda talking about himself. HE has feelings for Joyce. But, his ego image, and desire for sex have him tied up. And, not the kinky way.
Well, yes. Joyce has thoroughly misunderstood what people have been telling her. This is to be expected, given her background, but it will be a hard landing for her. Eventually – we have no idea how long Willis intends to drag this out.
………anyone else facepalm after panel 4? This is just childish idiocy on Joyce’s part. Kudos to Dorothy trying to get Joyce to recognize the other side of this issue.
Oh, and biiiiig middle finger to Joyce for that crack about Walky. If I were in Dorothy’s place, I would stopped and stared at her until she realize that she fucked up, because that is fucking uncalled for.
Perhaps there’s enough truth there to keep her from slapping Joyce. After all, neither Danny nor Walky seem to be prize specimens, the kind other women would try to steal away.
It’s a low blow against Dorothy, it’s straight up mean towards Walky and it’s also a pretty shitty thing to say about the guy that walked you to class when you couldn’t be outside by yourself
Or perhaps Dorothy’s first reaction isn’t violence despite Joyce being a jerk.
After all, we know at least one other woman who is attracted to both of them.
I said attracted to, not have feelings for (though I think it’s been shown that she does).
She’s called him cute at least once, maybe twice, and she was giving him her slash fic look right before he left the math building.
Dorothy is being extremely patient with Joyce, yeah, and that patience is a lot of why I respect her, wherever it stems from.
Though, to be fair, I’ve just remembered I’ve totally been in this sort of situation (just with somewhat smaller stakes) with someone before. The other person did eventually understand and has gotten a lot better since then!
The crack about Walky might be a bit more revealing than just a quick attack on Dorothy. We know Joyce thinks Walky isn’t nearly good enough for Dorothy. By going there she’s implying the way to not have constantly be fending off rival suitors is to pick someone way below your level. She’s skipping the entire question Dorothy raises about “a guy who so easily drops his girlfriend for another” as a matter of personality and recasting it as one of them being desirable enough to attract those suitors.
Which is not only mean to Dorothy, but kind of a sad approach on its own. Hints at the very kind of denial of agency so many here were upset about
Of course, she then goes on to handwave any problems away with “the power of love”, which is its own kettle of monkeys.
I definitely read Panel 3 Joyce as lashing out at Dorothy, in an attempt at deflection. I respected that Dorothy didn’t fall for it, and didn’t let herself be taken off track. Good job, Dorothy.
Yeah, I have a comment above (still awaiting moderation as of this posting due to the links) where I linked to Joe’s and Joyce’s entire conversation regarding Jacob, just in case anyone will want to check back and see.
He said he knew what they were trying to do and it would work (but that Sarah was setting up Joyce and Jacob, rather than letting Joyce clear her path so she could step in).
What Joyce was trying to do was break up Jacob’s relationship with somebody unworthy so he could find true love with Sarah. But if it turns out she’s his true love and Sarah recognises this and won’t be hurt – then this is her DESTINY. Joe said so. It’s unclear to her why he was so cross about it buy they did go on one disastrous date so maybe he REALLY liked her?
I admit I didn’t think of that point but I also feel like a one time event does not a pattern make, Joe leaving one person he’s been dating a short while because he met someone he clicks better with isn’t really a larger indication of him jumping from one relationship to another. Now if he’d spent the last few years jumping out of older more complication relationships so he could get into new fresh ones yah, that could be signs of behavior you don’t want in someone you date, but he hasn’t as far as we know (and I really doubt he has).
It’s about to be dashed . . . Well, at some indeterminate future time it will be dashed. We assume. We mere mortals cannot truly know the mind of Willis. But dashing seems likely. Eventually.
“Hopeless romantic” doesn’t mean Joyce isn’t hopeful, it means there’s no hope FOR her. No hope she’ll wise up. No hope she’ll make good decisions in love.
That’s not entirely fair to Joe. He knew he only meant she could seduce him, and I expect he assumed she knew him well enough to know that.
However, Joyce didn’t grasp the distinction between sex and marriage (or so I believe), so she took his affirmation to mean there could be True Love between herself and Jacob. He said nothing af the sort, but she thinks he did.
Joyce is aware that “pre-marital hanky-panky” does exist, but she would never do that, and I expect she assumed that Joe knows her well enough to know that. So she took his belief that she could successfully “win” Jacob as meaning far more than Joe intended.
This mutual misunderstanding is a very common communication error. Both are at fault for expecting the other person to know what they mean. It is hard to assign blame, though. Both thought it was obvious what they meant.
Again, how does Dorothy getting together with Walky a good week or two after breaking up with Danny have any relevancy to the current situation? Dorothy definitely has the high ground here, because she’s not trying to disrupt an existing relationship.
She didn’t even MEET Walky until the day after she’d dumped Danny, which she’d wanted to do for some time before she actually did it. They got together the after a week and lasted about five weeks (Dorothy says six weeks, but she appears to have started counting from when Walky threw the toy at her head).
No she doesn’t. You aren’t making a logical point, you are deflecting to a very different situation to try to discredit Dorothy. But even if she was doing the exact same thing, she still wouldn’t be wrong to call out Joyce even if she was a hypocrite for doing so, because you don’t let your friends just do disrespectful things to others and pretend you’re okay with it.
Poor Dorothy is never going to be president. She might work very hard at it, but someday it will come out that she picked up a new boyfriend slightly too fast after a break-up, and that one action is so unforgivable that she can never have any moral high ground again.
No he didn’t, Joyce is willfully fabricating a new version of what he said that bears no resemblance to his actual words to support her doing whatever she wants to do. It’s not his fault she’s pathologically delusional.
There needs to be a special kind of “the talk” for kids who grew up in evangelical homes. Like “Be aware overwhelming romantic love warps your judgment”. (Tears and apology in future strip)
So, I tried to ask this yesterday, but it was late and I’m sure most people missed it, so:
For those who think Joyce’s isn’t doing anything wrong here, do you think that’s where the story is going to go? Putting aside as much as possible your take on the morality of it all, do you think the clues and hints in the actual strips support that approach? Do they lead you to think Willis thinks Joyce is right here?
I’m pretty sure they don’t, but I’m seeing it through my own filter. I think hitting on people in relationships is bad, so I’m more likely to notice things in the story that support that. Still, even in these last couple of strips I’d say that Joyce is being very defensive about it. She’s not making the argument many are making here: That there’s nothing wrong with trying to break up a couple. She’s defending her actions because “Raidah was mean” or “it’s meant to be” or the “power of love”.
Is there stuff in the actual comic to support the other side?
Actually, Willis writing is so good, I’m not sure where his idea of morality lies here. I expect him to deconstruct the True Love trope, especially in its fundi incarnation. If he thinks Joyce’s acts are ok, it’s definitely not because of true love.
It seems he does dislike cheating because he makes us like Joe through depicting his hurt by his fathers constant cheating and his disapproval of it.
I’m not sure if his take on Joyce’s actions is that she is asking someone to cheat (which I don’t think she’s doing),
I wonder if the whole Sarah-has-the-impulse-to-break-up-Raidah-and-Jacob thing is just a dumb but totally relatable act of people busy with growing up to him and the changed tangent of Joyce going after Jacob is what he shows us while he writes the horrible things Blaine is going to do to hurt Amber and this is just a lure he knew would get everyone arguing.
I’m sure he has a stance on it, but I wouldn’t expect him to want us to do anything but think about where we stand.
Though since Dorothy reacted with anger, I’m no longer sure of that interpretation.
Judging from his recent It’s Walky! commentary – where, as I recall, he explicitly stated that he doesn’t particularly like writing “cheating” storylines, and repeatedly lambasted Danny for even thinking about a relationship with Sal while he was already in a relationship with Billie – I’m pretty sure none of us are supposed to be siding with Joyce here.
I think this comic is very much a portrait of people. It doesn’t reward good behaviours, or punish bad behaviours, it doesn’t always take a stance on which character is ‘right’.
(It does sometimes take a stance on which character is wrong, as with the abusive father-figures, but those are extreme cases.)
Right on the portrait theory probably. Joyce is obviously delusional (thanks to her upbringing) but does that enter the realm of right and wrong. There’s a lesson train coming down the tracks at her, I’m just not inclined to make it into a moral judgment. I lack the gift of prophecy as to what Willis is doing.
Except of course it does. It’s been very clear about right and wrong in many cases. It’s very definitely authorial stance that Joe’s behavior (before his recent changes) was wrong. (And there was a lot of defense of him in the commentariat as well.) It’s been very clear that Joyce’s initial attitudes on homosexuality were wrong – less debate from us on that.
There are definitely somethings where there is no clear stance taken, but since one of the big themes is Joyce learning and overcoming the crappy attitudes she’s picked up from her upbringing, I strongly suspect this is going to be a case where there is a stance.
Joyce believes if a woman can break up a couple its proof its truelove and therefore nobody will be able to break your couple up.
Joe believes if a woman is pretty enough she can break a couple up and eventually another pretty woman will break up the new couple.
Joe implied that Joyce could hurt the couple be being with Jacob, and couldn’t argue with Joyce’s assessment that she was good enough to be able to break the couple up. Joyce took it to mean because she is Jacob’s one true love when Joe meant that its just a matter of time before Jacob screws his relationship up but he does not want Joyce to be an accessory.
Now Dorothy is saying that if this succeeds it means Jacob has low loyalty. Joyce does not remember what Joe actually said just what she heard and thinks because Joe said she could break the couple up when she believed it meant true love thinks Joe said true love.
She didn’t “leave Danny for Walky” – she didn’t even MEET Walky until the day after she broke up with Danny (which, by the way, she had been trying to hint him at for some time – but he just wouldn’t take a hint). That was the day he threw a toy at her head, and she wouldn’t really begin dating him until about a week later.
You’re not the first to accuse her of this either. Are people really so quick to side with Joyce, or against Dorothy, that they’re accusing her of breaking causality?
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truly the authority on long-lasting relationships
don’t need no credit card to ride this
shiptrainthey say that all in love is fair
but Dorothy don’t care
Dorothy’s attitude is ironically very puritanical.
It is?
Weird.
No, actually… puritanical would be her trying to convince Joyce not to pursue worldly lust. What Dorothy is proposing is just simply moral. To hurt somebody for your own gain is not ethical or moral.
THANK YOU
No, but she knows that Joyce’s IS. That’s the point.
In general, people who renege on commitments easily don’t suddenly and spontaneously leave that habit behind.
If Joyce were happy with short-term hook-ups, or casual dating with multiple people, then Dorothy wouldn’t be making this argument. But she (and we) know Joyce better–the one thing that would be absolutely certain to devastate her would be a boyfriend cheating on her.
And with a little help from a Joe
You’ll feel the poooooower of NO
Ana, you have of course posted the exact thing that went through my head after reading the alt text!
I wonder if the other ‘Power of Love’ might not be more accurate to where Joyce is…
“Ay, ay, ay, ay
Feels like fire
I’m so in love with you
Dreams are like angels
They keep bad at bay, bad at bay
Love is the light
Scaring darkness away”
It took me a while to realize you were sarcastically talking about Joe instead of sarcastically talking about Dorothy
I guess it could be both tho
Tho I just read this thing that claims Jacob means “supplanter” – which is someone who takes the rightful place of someone else.
So 🤷
Didn’t Joe very specifically tell Joyce the opposite of that?
No. He told her she shouldn’t, which she understood to mean that she could. And if she could, the only way that could happen is if it was True Love. Cause that’s how it works in the movies.
ahh joe, the endless font of wisdom
Given that what Joe said was kinda the opposite of what Joyce just said he said… Sure.
WWJD?
there was once a sizable list…
I audibly snorted lmao
Certainly an endless font of something…it’s not wisdom though
“No no, Dorothy, you’ve got it all wrong. G.I. Joe said so.”
Sergeant Slaughter steps out of the bushes.
“And knowing is half the battle! Yo Joe!”
“And what’s the other half?”
“Violence!”
Porkchop sandwiches.
Poor Sergeant Slaughter was kidnapped during the Iraq War and brainwashed into becoming a Heel.
It’s OK, he got brainwashed into becoming a stooge for Vince McMahon so it turned out better in the end…
Actually, he joined I.C.E.
Because I.C.E. Is: fighting for a better future.
Lasers!
“Sanitized violence. With ‘lasers’ that never actually cause anyone to suffer actual injuries!”
I’ve seen this Community episode…Go Joebra!
More Daka.
Joyce will eventually join the Joes and learn from Snake Eyes how to be a ninja.
Snake-Eyes is dead. Long live Snake-Eyes.
Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.
Roadblock could lecture Joyce in rhyme. If only that poster could suddenly materialize next to Joyce’s bed.
Ooh, ooh, is that… shading as symbolism!?
… B-between last comic and now, how they come out of the shade in panels 5~6? Coinciding with Joyce’s defense hitting a snag? Maybe I’m reaching, but I just like the juxtaposition of the change in shading and that beat panel!
Ooh, good catch!
Seconded!
Joe is the light!
Oh my God. *facepalm*
MM, I think you’ve achieved 100% synchronization with Dorothy.
I can’t remember, but I’m pretty sure Joe has been taken out of context
He’s also been taken out of his pants by Malaya.
As I mentioned below, Joe never even said that. “Taken out of context” nothing, Joyce is just straight-up making up what Joe said.
No, Joyce knows Joe thinks she’s hot enough to get Jacob. Which is all that matters.
Joyce stated, in this very strip, “[Joe said that] he’ll leave her for me and no one else because of the power of our love.”
When put into the context of the current conversation, with Dorothy asking Joyce how she knows Jacob won’t leave her too, how is that not fabricating what Joe said?
I think it’s not so much a fabrication as a mis-remembering of the conversation. I know I’m guilty of remembering things more in my favor, but I may be a bit… weird… idk…
I can’t speak to your overall weirdness, but remembering events in a way that paints you in the most charitable light is hardly unusual.
And, indeed, is kinda the point of this comic.
‘Mis-remembering’ is a very innocent word for ‘I made up a conversation whole cloth to justify the things I want to do while pinning the blame on someone I know people are predisposed to think is awful’ though.
The issue is with ‘whole cloth’. Joyce has a very powerful set of filters on her world-view. These often warp her basic interpretations of things.
She sincerely desires to be Jacob’s One and Only. In her rose-colored view of True Love, if you can be ‘stolen’ from someone else, then it wasn’t True Love to begin with. And since (again, in her view) True Love is always, ALWAYS reciprocal, if she loves Jacob, and they get together, then that means he loves her too. Which means that the relationship with Raidah couldn’t have been True Love. And if Joe believes that she has a chance to get Jacob, then that means she possesses the tools to acquire True Love with him.
Is it a horribly naive, and likely self-destructive world-view? Ayup. But it’s not one maliciously constructed to bypass her own moral imperatives (the way that, oh, virtually anything Mary says or does is).
Thank Disney for that one. Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, Pocahontas, and so many more all taught that the one he or she is going to marry is wrong for him or her and just plain evil, and that the main character is always good and should break up the relationship.
Not that this is exclusive to Disney, but it’s such a widely used trope in movies that are specifically aimed at little girls in their most highly impressionable stages.
@Wright: Not that it puts a downer on the rest of your point, but IIRC Joyce specifically stated once that she wasn’t allowed to watch Disney movies growing up (as they “promote the idea of happiness without God”).
We don’t know everything they texted. I agree though that “power of love” is not Joe’s style, so she’s probably making it up.
It wasn’t texting, it was face-to-face conversation. Their full convo regarding the whole Jacob thing is right here:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/walkys/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/heck/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/pushing/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/lying/
Nowhere does Joe say anything like what Joyce is here claiming he said to her.
Love, lust, whatever, man.
Joe is never in a thousand years going to say that a cheater will change.
Of course not. And of course Jacob is no cheater. He’s pure and strong and sexy. Since he’s not like that, the only way Joyce could win him, like Joe says she can is if it’s True Love. Like in the movies.
She’s not actually making it up or misremembering what he said, she’s running it through her own screwed up perception filter and reaching a meaning he never intended.
^ yes, what thejeff said.
It’s very human to misperceive things like this.
That’s the same thing as making it up. Just because it’s a delusion and not an intentional lie doesn’t make it any less not what happened.
Wow, Joyce finally convinced Dorothy to appeal to a higher authority.
XD there is nothing I could comment about now and… probably till the end of this arc, that will be better than your comment MM. Bravo. XD
Willis??
Joe, My God?
Also, Joe never said that Jacob would stay with you forever, Joyce. All he said was that what you were doing – trying to take him away from Raidah – had a chance of working.
But… but… the power of love!
Yes, because Joe knows all relationships fail because men stray due to his father being awful to his mother ala Joss Whedon to his wife.
What?
I hate Whedon as much as the next person, but what does he have to do with this conversation?
In other news, Joyce doesn’t understand sarcasm
She understands it, but her understanding conveniently fails her when the misunderstanding would work in her favor.
That’s a good point that Dorothy brings up.
Similar to “once a cheater always a cheater.”
I hadn’t thought about it from that angle.
Dorothy’s argument is also bullshit because Jacob leaving Raidah because he likes Joyce more is HOW DATING WORKS. You find someone who is the best match for you and you commit to them.
Yes and no. There are people who are way more likely to leave you for another partner than others. Unlike once a cheater, a one time occurrence is not enough to make pattern out of it, but do yourself a favor and stay away from people who make a habit of switching partners. You’ll be switched , too.
There is some truth in it, though. People who choose their partner carefully usually don’t do that. First, you switch partners for someone you consider better, so your first one was, most likely, a bad decision you didn’t really think through. Second, a person in a happy relationship with a person he/she really loves is less likely to fall in love with another person. Nature took care of that.
So, a “stealable” person often had a casual relationship before. Which doesn’t mean he/she will think like this about the next one, but it does mean casual relationships are a thing he/she does. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but if you are looking for a husband, it’s a thing to keep in mind.
I agree. No one can “steal” anyone. If Joe breaks up with Raidah and starts to date Joyce, that’s on Joe. It could be because he realizes he genuinely likes Joyce better than Raidah, or it could be because his relationship with Raidah isn’t very deep in the first place and hey, Joyce seems more fun. If Jacob were committed to Raidah, Joyce wouldn’t stand a chance.
As Raidah said when she and Jacob were discussing her lack of jealousy, maybe Raidah’s lucky to be rid of him because he doesn’t deserve her if he’s so easily distracted.
Of course, I think that conversation is coming back to bite her because it’s not that she was not the jealous type, it’s that she never felt threatened before. She’s def feeling a little green-eyed.
Man, I must’ve missed the part of the comment where Raidah dumped Jacob and hooked up with Joe 😛
(I know you meant Jacob).
i think joe and raidah is as appealing as it is unlikely
I just need to point out that simply changing partners isn’t cheating. It’s only cheating if you keep it a secret from one or both (or more) that you are seeing the other person.
Jacob seems like the type that would break up with Raidah before dating Joyce, should he decide he wants to pursue that.
Also, I don’t care how careful you are about who you choose, unless you have inside information (i.e. have known them for a long time or are friends with someone who has) who they appear to be when you first start dating and who they actually are can be very different. Also, especially when you are younger, you simply realize that what you thought you wanted isn’t what you actually need. Most relationships don’t work out and that isn’t a matter of preparation, it’s just the reality of testing compatibility with people.
Exactly my point 😉 and exactly why I knew each of my partners for months before starting to date them. I want to know that their personality matches mine. I’m not the type of person for casual dating (as in “just try and see what happens”).Coincidentally, I’ve never been switched and I’ve never switched my partners.
Choosing carefully takes time. It’s not done in a few days. It’s not a guarantee for a lasting relationship but you weed out the short and casual ones. I prefer that. Saves me a lot of heartache, and a lot of drama.
Something like this was the point I was trying to make yesterday with everyone falling in love should have someone else around who’s also interested in them. It makes them choose more consciously who they want to be with.
I agree with the sentiment that people tend to go as they come. If you find the ex of your partner didn’t know she was an ex when you and your partner started something, it’s likely you will be informed of being ex after your partner started something with someone else.
In my experience, most people decide who to be involved with based on who they have feelings for/pushes their buttons, not who is the best match.
While best match can be about matching feelings, it has connotations of who makes the most money, best job, etc. It just comes off a bit mercenary and while plenty do, a lot of people don’t date like that.
Well that feels like that would only apply for couples who are too green to be considered a full blown relationship.For a couple that’s been together for a while it would turn heads to know that someone could easily drop their long time significant other so easily just because they’ve been getting along better with someone new.
It mostly takes some drama a lot longer than Jacob and Raidah have even been together, but it happens all the time.
Especially in relationships that have run on dry times sexually, as far as things went where I knew one or both of the original couple well enough to hear the fallout.
Except by that approach you never actually know the best match, since someone better could always come along so you never really commit. You’re always on the lookout for someone who might be better. Which often means you’re likely to jump around a lot, because it’s easy to see the shiny new person whose flaws you don’t know yet as better.
The alternate approach is finding someone you like (and who likes you) and seeing how it goes. Then you can stick with them as long as it’s a good thing without keeping an eye out constantly to see if something better might be passing by. And if it isn’t working out, you can always break up even without having someone else waiting for you.
So no, in my experience that’s not at all how dating works. At least not when you’ve gone beyond the first couple get to know you dates and have decided you’re actually in an exclusive relationship.
Yeah, I mean, not to make a fictional story about me (or any other real life person), but I’ve broken up with someone because another person seemed more attractive / better personality match / more sexually compatible / right here as opposed to far away.
Were the people I dumped my exes for trying to “seduce” me, or were they just being friendly + flirty, and I figured it was worth a shot because my current relationship was lacking in some way?
I dunno, some people commit right away, but to me, until my relationship is so close to perfect that I can’t fathom how anyone else might be better– OR until I make a serious, out-loud commitment to stick with it through the hard times (trust me, haven’t made that choice yet, even if certain exes would argue otherwise)–then, yeah, I’m gonna break up with someone when I feel lonely / bored /worried, and a new person makes me feel loved / excited / safe.
So, yeah, that doesn’t make me a bad person. A lot of people are like that. I’ve had eleven significant others in thirteen years; relationships last from a month or so to two years.
And, like, if I’m defensive, it’s because it seems like a site full of commenters accepting of different relationship and sexual styles (LGBT- yes! Polyamory- f-yeah! Ruth/Billie trying to turn around an initially emotionally abusive relationship– go for it!) but then suddenly there’s a lot of moral judgement around a relationship style that is not better or worse than any other. I have straight-up asked someone to break up with her g/f for me, because I don’t do “other woman” sh*t, and she did and we had an amazing time. So you’re going to say “no judgement” to polyamory but judge monogamy when someone legit plays by monogamy rules and breaks up prior to dating / canoodling with someone else?
I’m sorry but that’s an impossible moral standard to reach. Like, unless everyone is from a courtship culture or betrothal culture, in which case dumping someone to date someone else really is a BFD. But in regular secular American culture, yes, actually, people break up with a current partner to date someone new who caught their eye literally all the time.
hmm.
seems like it’d be important to mention up-front that you don’t do long-term relationships, since that’s something a lot of people want (and will assume you want, just as they’ll assume monogamy unless that’s discussed).
Except this isn’t about a “relationship style”. Certainly not yours.
There’s no indication that Jacob’s approach to relationship’s is like yours. Or that he’s communicated it to Raidah if it is. Which as Inahc suggests would be a good idea, because “We’re dating, but I’m going keep flirting and looking around and if I find someone I like better, I’m going for it. Don’t worry, I’ll break up with you before doing anything, so it’s still monogamy.”? That’s not really the default expectation. Or at least not openly the default expectation. People often worry about their partner behaving like that – whether they’ll be left at any moment.
Raidah’s approach clearly isn’t that. She’s in full “neutralize the threat sniffing around my man” mode.
Joyce isn’t even like that. I mean, she’s rationalizing it now, since it’s too her advantage, but “this is going to be a one time thing. He’ll leave her for me and no one else because of the Power of our Love.”
That doesn’t really sound like your approach either.
If Joyce had straight up gone to Jacob and asked him, instead of getting into this bullshit showdown with Raidah, I’d have a lot less problem with her.
Joyce spends the next 3 strips hung up on an atheist invoking god
Willis: WHAT?
Dorothy: Help me out here!
Willis: I’m busy drawing porn!
Joyce: God?
Willis: Yes?
*original soundtrack hits the viola solo part*
But this is Joe we’re talking about here…
It’s tragic Joyce only went after Jacob because Joe said that she could get him as it implies she didn’t think she was worthy of him before. It means Joyce has really shitty self esteem.
Mind you, Joe would be the one most disgusted with this plan because he holds relationships sacrosanct. It’s, ironically, why Joe doesn’t get into one.
If you call her thinking Jacob was out of her league really shifty self esteem, then yeah. I’m enjoying seeing a Joyce with the confidence Joe gave her.
That 3rd panel burn is still smouldering! Somebody get some ice!
Say it ain’t so, Joe
I will not Joe
Turn the lights Joe
Carry me Joe
In all honesty I didn’t expect Dotty to use that point
Neither did I, and I actually really appreciate that Dorothy’s trying to appeal to Joyce’s self-interest like that.
It’s the first valid point she’s brought up.
In your opinion.
When the youth pastor told you to ask ‘WWJD?’ that wasn’t the J he meant.
Joe is Old Testament.
King Solomon!
*porn music plays as he walks into his harem*
Isn’t his full name Joseph…?
Little-known fact, his full name is Joseph Solomon Rosenthal.
King Solomon? Does that mean Jacob’s going to be cut in half so that Joyce and Raidah both get a fair share or am I thinking of the wrong biblical king?
He’s going to threaten it, and then one of them (it’s supposed to be one of them) will concede, showing they care more for the subject being threatened with bisection and therefore love/deserve them more.
Like, in the original it was a very young child that been abducted after the abducter accidentally smothered their VYC, so this entire situation is a bit nutty.
“I’ve already planned our first date, proposal, marriage, and kids’ names, so there’s no way this can’t happen.”
Panel 3 Joyce unleashes the snark she restrained in front of Jacob.
That she’s attacking Dorothy tells me she’s feeling defensive.
Also, of course, D is the only available target at this moment.
Panel 3 is such amazing shade that it extends into the two panels to the left and 2 panels to the right.
Also panels 3 4 and 5 are quite a range on Joyce’s face.
it kind of plays like a punchline because it’s in the last panel, but this does actually say a lot of what joyce thinks of joe’s opinion in a weird way
Joe is exactly the kind of guy who Joyce would be a good match for if Joe were looking for a relationship.
We see he grows out of douchebaggery as a Silicon Valley billionaire, which is usually the opposite of how it goes.
Joyce has said Joe is usually right about things, so she does respect his opinions if not his morals.
Except that it’s not even Joe’s opinion in this case, because he never said what she’s claiming him to.
I’m just talking about how much weight she gives Joe’s opinions; I know Joe didn’t say what she claims.
Yes, but according to JoyceLogic (TM), that is what he said.
Well at least Dorothy is trying to dissuade Joyce and it seem that Joyce can tell her excuses amount to her just grasping at straws. Like c’mon, she’s using Joe as her excuse.
Manifest destiny! The promised Husband! Milk and honey!
I don’t care for Dorothy’s argument here. It takes as a condition Jacob’s moral weakness and implicitly condones Joyce’s actions were she taking this particularly consequence into consideration.
That said, the only issue I have here is a little bit of her duplicity. Let Joyce be an adult, Dorothy. Jeez.
It’s a strange idea that a relationship can’t be ended for romantic reasons when she’s ended two romances for pragmatic ones.
…there’s a really big difference between ending a relationship you’re in versus trying to end a relationship someone else is in because you don’t like it or you want to be in it. Whether her reasons are romantic or pragmatic is beside the point; what Joyce is doing is wildly inappropriate.
She’s saying here, that Jacob would be a unworthy if he left Raidah for Joyce.
Which is crazy.
No, she’s saying that if Jacob can be convinced by flirting to leave Raidah for Joyce, what’s to stop him from leaving Joyce for someone else later?
That’s not actually a good rebuttal as it implies he doesn’t like Raidah that much.
How does it imply he doesn’t like Raidah that much?
It might just imply he’s easily swayed by the next pretty, flirty girl that wanders by?
Which, statistically, is more likely to be true. The guy who easily drops one relationship for another, is more likely to do so again. Which isn’t what Joyce is looking for.
The argument you’re making is basically the one Joyce is making: “It’s not the same because he doesn’t really like her, but I’ll be special. We’ll have the power of love.”
They’ve been dating for two weeks, dude, and he just got an eyeful of a Raidah that is objectively unlikeable. She’s petty. She’s rude. She’s got that materialistic streak that leads her to be dickish to education-majors.
They’re sophomores in college. Two weeks is fewer than five dates, and a couple evenings of watching netflix in each other’s dorm rooms. Two weeks also mean these revelations about her personality are probably pretty fresh.
Joyce’s intent is bad. Actively scheming to ruin someone’s relationship, for cheap sex or for Twoo Wuv, is Bad News. But her execution here isn’t terrible. Bear in mind, Joyce’s idea of flirting is basically “ordinary conversation, but with the top button of her conservative button-down loosened.” Joyce isn’t going to bring Jacob round back for blowjobs and pie.
I’m pretty sure he didn’t get “an eyeful of a Raidah that is objectively unlikeable.” I mean, I think it is, but I think it was subtle enough that if he didn’t see it from the viewpoint of “Raidah is going after the girl who’s flirting with me”, he could put a more favorable spin on it. I don’t think his reactions have been clear enough to be sure he’s unhappy with what she’s done.
At least you’re agreeing Joyce’s intent is bad. That’s the big object of debate around here these days.
Also, IIRC they’he been dating for at least three weeks, not two, for what it’s worth.
It only seems like several years.
What AKP said, but with Dorothy substituted in for Joyce.
That doesn’t even make sense. What’s Dorothy doing that’s inappropriate?
Ending her own relationships is bad, but trying to end someone else’s is fine? I don’t get it.
Or the advice? But then talking about Dorothy’s romantic or practical reasons doesn’t make any sense.
She’s trying to end end someone else’s relationship before it even starts because she doesn’t like it. Specifically she’s trying to impose her own private moral choices onto Joyce rather than accept Joyce as she is – something that Joyce was willing to do for her over the disapproval of her family.
…what.
This type of logic is horrible. So, if you see a friend doing or saying racist things, do you shut up and ‘accept them as they are’?
Joyce, right now, is doing something shitty. It’s commonly accepted that you don’t go after people in a committed relationship. Why the hell shouldn’t Dorothy call her out on it?
What I’ve learned over the last few days of comments (and further back in comments on strips in this arc) is that it’s not nearly so commonly accepted as I thought.
I really haven’t been able to figure out where the disconnect is. I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t think the two sides can really explain it too each other. I know, from what the other side has said about why they think I have a problem with it, that they don’t understand where I’m coming from at all. I know I can’t see their side either.
I think we can’t reason it out because we’re started from different assumptions. No one’s logic is faulty, but we’re using different axioms.
It’s a different priority on flirting in general, and Jacob and Raidah’s relationship specifically.
First, some people think that flirting is a big deal, and others don’t.
Some people think that taking action to break up a healthy relationship is bad, period.
Some people think that, if you’ve only been dating for two weeks, you’re still exploring, it’s hardly a relationship yet, so it’s fine.
Similarly-but-not-identically, some people think that flirting is fine up to a certain point of commitment (which Jacob and Raidah have not yet reached).
etc.
…what part of “he’s totally going to leave his girlfriend and be with me forever and ever and ever because it’s destined to be that way while having zero self-reflection on the morality of your actions” sounds like “being an adult” to you?
There are a lot of stupid adults.
She’s making this argument because she thinks it will get *through* to Joyce. When constructing an argument, do you speak to what would convince yourself? No. You speak to what would convince your audience. Joyce is being selfish. Therefore, the best way to convince her to change her mind is to point out the logical end of her selfishness coming to fruition. It would not speak well to the character of either person involved.
There’s no duplicity, there’s only an argument from the perspective of the person she’s attempting to convince. It’s a very effective strategy, and the fact that by the end of it Joyce has fallen back on “the serial playboy told me so!” tells me that it’s working here, too.
Yeah this whole argument is an appeal to Joyce’s self interest not her sense of morals. Like it completely skirts the idea that what she is doing is bad and hurtful in favour of prioritizing how it could hurt her personally. Like, if that’s the only argument that will work on Joyce then she kind of completely fucking sucks.
Yes, instead of trying to impose her personal moral convinctions on her friend she’s bringing up considerations worth thinking about. If Jacob has had a succession of girlfriends who were jealous, there’s probably a reason they were jealous.
Dorothy has already tried reminding Joyce that what she’s doing is mean and found out Joyce is justifying herself with but Raidah was mean to my friend and besides I really want to.
Also the idea that a lack of loyalty is at least somewhat inherent in the person is new information to Joyce. Most of the moral stuff isn’t so much new as stuff she’s choosing to ignore.
Also the practical argument against Joyce’s actions is a back door to the moral argument. Dorothy is encouraging Joyce to mentally try on Raidah’s shoes even if its just because her ideal outcome puts her in them if Joyce thinks they still seem pretty nice
Elsewhere, Walky is wondering why he suddenly needs to visit a burn ward.
Eh, he’s too busy sexting his new girlfriend.
Dont need no credit card to ride this train!
Panel #2: well Dorothy has a good argument there except the idea that it seems like Jacob and Raidah aren’t really in the deep of a relationship.It’s only been what a few weeks? Wait what am I talking about Raidah about the meet Jacob’s family so their kind of going steady.
Panel #3: LOW BLOW from Joyce, and in Dorothy’s defense maybe she went for him because he has more charm than most of their male friends ( low bar there because he’s competing with Joe and Mike) and Joyce herself considering everyone that Joyce seems to try to get close to like him better.
Panel #6: So is that a “Oh my God so you really are about to steal that girls boyfriend” or a “Oh my God I can’t believe your taking dating advice from Frikkin Joe.”
It’s definitely an “Oh my God I can’t believe you’re taking dating advice from Joe”
Yep.
Yeah, we already had the “Oh my God so you really are about to steal that girls boyfriend” reaction.
Remember that Dorothy knows Joe from high school – though she hasn’t really seen that he’s changing and doesn’t really know about the connection he’s made with Joyce, so her opinion here is likely even worse than ours.
We haven’t seen Joe since April, and I actually miss him.
Same
I want my.boy
July 4th if you count the slipshine
The funny thing is, this situation right now is exactly what Dorothy needs. A problem she can work on that has nothing to do with her schoolwork.
You mean like she had with Walky, that she broke up with him over because it was too much of a distraction.
I mean, she was putting eating and showering as too much of a distraction from schoolwork. I don’t think she needs another problem to solve. Any time spent on this will have to come directly out of sleep.
Or at least it will with her current approach.
Listen to your rationalist friend for once, Joyce: 1)Walky is a nice fellow, and you marry him in another universe, 2)it’s highly toxic to stalk every woman near your crush, and 3)Joe sucks at romance, you jerk!
Yknow I actually wonder how he would be if he tried romance. He’s always sworn it off because he didn’t want to end up cheating and hurting someone like his dad did (which already says something about him), but I’m really curious how it would be if after he got more comfortable with his emotions, he found someone he really liked and actually tried being a boyfriend
IIRC Joe explained Sarah’s true plan (that Joyce would cause Jacob to fall for her (Joyce)), and that he disapproved. This let Joyce know that Joe believed she had a chance, which was something of an epiphany for her, and markedly improved her self esteem.
Joe, of course was thinking of sex. But at this stage in Joyce’s enlightenment, it would not occur to her to think of anything other than marriage. So in her mind, Joe really did say there was True Love about to happen.
The thing is, Joe was kinda talking about himself. HE has feelings for Joyce. But, his ego image, and desire for sex have him tied up. And, not the kinky way.
And the face-punching. He still has issues with the face-punching.
Yeah, but that was Mike. Joyce just wanted a chaperone.
She joined in on the face-punching in the end, on the other hand.
You’re right. I had forgotten that.
Well, yes. Joyce has thoroughly misunderstood what people have been telling her. This is to be expected, given her background, but it will be a hard landing for her. Eventually – we have no idea how long Willis intends to drag this out.
Ouch! Catty Joyce!
Me-ouch!
………anyone else facepalm after panel 4? This is just childish idiocy on Joyce’s part. Kudos to Dorothy trying to get Joyce to recognize the other side of this issue.
Oh, and biiiiig middle finger to Joyce for that crack about Walky. If I were in Dorothy’s place, I would stopped and stared at her until she realize that she fucked up, because that is fucking uncalled for.
I’m impressed that Dorothy just didn’t straight up slap Joyce after what she just said
I’m imagining that ‘JOYCE.’ as being in that mom tone where you KNOW you should not have just said that.
Joyce is certainly acting enough like a petulant child to earn it.
Yeah low blow right there, Joyce.
Like “fiery circle of hell” low.
Perhaps there’s enough truth there to keep her from slapping Joyce. After all, neither Danny nor Walky seem to be prize specimens, the kind other women would try to steal away.
I don’t care how much truth or not there is behind that, it’s a childish insult that’s way out of line.
It’s a low blow against Dorothy, it’s straight up mean towards Walky and it’s also a pretty shitty thing to say about the guy that walked you to class when you couldn’t be outside by yourself
Or perhaps Dorothy’s first reaction isn’t violence despite Joyce being a jerk.
After all, we know at least one other woman who is attracted to both of them.
Well it hasn’t been confirmed that amber has feelings for walky
I’d say that’s pretty well confirmed, actually.
I said attracted to, not have feelings for (though I think it’s been shown that she does).
She’s called him cute at least once, maybe twice, and she was giving him her slash fic look right before he left the math building.
Dorothy is being extremely patient with Joyce, yeah, and that patience is a lot of why I respect her, wherever it stems from.
Though, to be fair, I’ve just remembered I’ve totally been in this sort of situation (just with somewhat smaller stakes) with someone before. The other person did eventually understand and has gotten a lot better since then!
The crack about Walky might be a bit more revealing than just a quick attack on Dorothy. We know Joyce thinks Walky isn’t nearly good enough for Dorothy. By going there she’s implying the way to not have constantly be fending off rival suitors is to pick someone way below your level. She’s skipping the entire question Dorothy raises about “a guy who so easily drops his girlfriend for another” as a matter of personality and recasting it as one of them being desirable enough to attract those suitors.
Which is not only mean to Dorothy, but kind of a sad approach on its own. Hints at the very kind of denial of agency so many here were upset about
Of course, she then goes on to handwave any problems away with “the power of love”, which is its own kettle of monkeys.
I definitely read Panel 3 Joyce as lashing out at Dorothy, in an attempt at deflection. I respected that Dorothy didn’t fall for it, and didn’t let herself be taken off track. Good job, Dorothy.
Joe said absolutely nothing of the kind and you know it, young lady.
Yeah, I have a comment above (still awaiting moderation as of this posting due to the links) where I linked to Joe’s and Joyce’s entire conversation regarding Jacob, just in case anyone will want to check back and see.
I definitely would have remembered if Joe had said something like that, since it would be so out-of-character for him.
He said he knew what they were trying to do and it would work (but that Sarah was setting up Joyce and Jacob, rather than letting Joyce clear her path so she could step in).
What Joyce was trying to do was break up Jacob’s relationship with somebody unworthy so he could find true love with Sarah. But if it turns out she’s his true love and Sarah recognises this and won’t be hurt – then this is her DESTINY. Joe said so. It’s unclear to her why he was so cross about it buy they did go on one disastrous date so maybe he REALLY liked her?
The key point being Joe said A) Nothing about ‘forever’ and b) Never mentioned anything long term. That’s JOYCE all over.
Joe said nothing of the kind and Joyce doesn’t know it.
Remember who we’re dealing with here. How else would she be able to break up a relationship like Jacob’s if it wasn’t really True Love?
You have to take what Joe said and run it through the Joyce filter to figure out what she heard.
Welp. I can admit when I’m wrong.
Thank you Dorothy for putting the time in to this and giving it a shot. I read this completely wrong and I’m glad I did. :3
I admit I didn’t think of that point but I also feel like a one time event does not a pattern make, Joe leaving one person he’s been dating a short while because he met someone he clicks better with isn’t really a larger indication of him jumping from one relationship to another. Now if he’d spent the last few years jumping out of older more complication relationships so he could get into new fresh ones yah, that could be signs of behavior you don’t want in someone you date, but he hasn’t as far as we know (and I really doubt he has).
Whoops, I guess the punchline had me throwing joes name where it didn’t belong
This… might be my favorite DoA strip of all time.
Well, Joyce is certainly living up to the term “hopeless romantic”.
I’d say she has a lot of hope.
It’s about to be dashed . . . Well, at some indeterminate future time it will be dashed. We assume. We mere mortals cannot truly know the mind of Willis. But dashing seems likely. Eventually.
“Hopeless romantic” doesn’t mean Joyce isn’t hopeful, it means there’s no hope FOR her. No hope she’ll wise up. No hope she’ll make good decisions in love.
Dorothy: Thank you for letting me know who I need to go beat to death
what
Joe. The answer is Joe.
Oh Joe you poor sap you made a mistake without even being there.
That’s not entirely fair to Joe. He knew he only meant she could seduce him, and I expect he assumed she knew him well enough to know that.
However, Joyce didn’t grasp the distinction between sex and marriage (or so I believe), so she took his affirmation to mean there could be True Love between herself and Jacob. He said nothing af the sort, but she thinks he did.
Joyce is aware that “pre-marital hanky-panky” does exist, but she would never do that, and I expect she assumed that Joe knows her well enough to know that. So she took his belief that she could successfully “win” Jacob as meaning far more than Joe intended.
This mutual misunderstanding is a very common communication error. Both are at fault for expecting the other person to know what they mean. It is hard to assign blame, though. Both thought it was obvious what they meant.
(insert lecture about theory of mind here)
How soon did you get with Walky after your break up, Dorothy?
And how is that relevant? Walky didn’t make any attempt to “steal” Dorothy from Danny, or anything else like what Joyce is trying to do here.
Just saying Dorothy needs to shut up as she has some sort of moral high ground here. And you can’t steal a person.
Again, how does Dorothy getting together with Walky a good week or two after breaking up with Danny have any relevancy to the current situation? Dorothy definitely has the high ground here, because she’s not trying to disrupt an existing relationship.
She didn’t even MEET Walky until the day after she’d dumped Danny, which she’d wanted to do for some time before she actually did it. They got together the after a week and lasted about five weeks (Dorothy says six weeks, but she appears to have started counting from when Walky threw the toy at her head).
As she should. The toy throwing is one of the most important anniversaries.
No she doesn’t. You aren’t making a logical point, you are deflecting to a very different situation to try to discredit Dorothy. But even if she was doing the exact same thing, she still wouldn’t be wrong to call out Joyce even if she was a hypocrite for doing so, because you don’t let your friends just do disrespectful things to others and pretend you’re okay with it.
Poor Dorothy is never going to be president. She might work very hard at it, but someday it will come out that she picked up a new boyfriend slightly too fast after a break-up, and that one action is so unforgivable that she can never have any moral high ground again.
“A vote for Keener is a vote to danny up America”
Best comment, no contest.
Yeah, worth a couple of Internets anyway.
Don’t need no credit card to ride this train
Damn it, you guys are going to make me Google this.
Ok. Appropriate song is appropriate.
Joyce!
This is just perfect.
Wow, panel 3-5 is a great study of Joyce’s trying to avoid an uncomfortable subject.
1. Deflection.
2. Self assurance.
3. Uncertain honesty
Heh, Joe REALLY managed to Danny this one up
No he didn’t, Joyce is willfully fabricating a new version of what he said that bears no resemblance to his actual words to support her doing whatever she wants to do. It’s not his fault she’s pathologically delusional.
Sure, but if we look at the result he wanted to achieve and the mindset Joyce took from him, he completely failed.
Not his fault? Sure, thus the term “Danny it up”.
Wow that’s very much not what joe said, trusting joe’s Word aside
Listen Joyce, the paper of love is a curious thing.
It makes one woman weep, and makes another woman sing.
The last 3 comics have reminded me why I dislike Joyce in the first place.
This is actual a serious and major plot point in a lot of Christian movies. Not even joking.
That’s not what Joe said, Joyce.
Oh, Joyce. Sit down girl, because there is something you need to hear and you must believe: You. Are. Not. A. Fairy. Tale. Princess.
You take that back!
We’re all a fairy tale princess. Some of us are just better at it than others.
…. okay, is that title a pun?
Because Joyce really suits Jacob, while Raidah is learning her way around suits.
Joe, Jacob and Dorothy are all rivai suitors for Joyce, they just haven’t realized it yet.
Yeah, Jacob’s all about deception, manipulation and acting unethically because you think True Love gives you license to do so.
No he didn’t you complete idiot.
I’m pretty sure he was being sarcastic
And so, Anti-Joyce continues to emerge… I was wondering when she’d finally show up.
…..is the caption supposed to be Marina. Is this 2013
Definitely not a bad thing considering I listened to Marina literally yesterday
more like Huey Lewis & the News.
I just want to make a change I just wanna change I just wanna change I just wanna change I just wanna CHANGE
Any moment now Dorothy will be shaking her fist at the sky and yelling “Damn you, Willis!”
There needs to be a special kind of “the talk” for kids who grew up in evangelical homes. Like “Be aware overwhelming romantic love warps your judgment”. (Tears and apology in future strip)
Pretty positive panel 5 is a representative of Joyce’s realization that it”s fucking Joe.
Also, Joe made some good points you and Jacob, so I think you misread some things in your haste to get away from him.
Not sure what you mean by her haste to get away from him when it was Joe who escaped the conversation by going with Malaya
So, I tried to ask this yesterday, but it was late and I’m sure most people missed it, so:
For those who think Joyce’s isn’t doing anything wrong here, do you think that’s where the story is going to go? Putting aside as much as possible your take on the morality of it all, do you think the clues and hints in the actual strips support that approach? Do they lead you to think Willis thinks Joyce is right here?
I’m pretty sure they don’t, but I’m seeing it through my own filter. I think hitting on people in relationships is bad, so I’m more likely to notice things in the story that support that. Still, even in these last couple of strips I’d say that Joyce is being very defensive about it. She’s not making the argument many are making here: That there’s nothing wrong with trying to break up a couple. She’s defending her actions because “Raidah was mean” or “it’s meant to be” or the “power of love”.
Is there stuff in the actual comic to support the other side?
Actually, Willis writing is so good, I’m not sure where his idea of morality lies here. I expect him to deconstruct the True Love trope, especially in its fundi incarnation. If he thinks Joyce’s acts are ok, it’s definitely not because of true love.
It seems he does dislike cheating because he makes us like Joe through depicting his hurt by his fathers constant cheating and his disapproval of it.
I’m not sure if his take on Joyce’s actions is that she is asking someone to cheat (which I don’t think she’s doing),
I wonder if the whole Sarah-has-the-impulse-to-break-up-Raidah-and-Jacob thing is just a dumb but totally relatable act of people busy with growing up to him and the changed tangent of Joyce going after Jacob is what he shows us while he writes the horrible things Blaine is going to do to hurt Amber and this is just a lure he knew would get everyone arguing.
I’m sure he has a stance on it, but I wouldn’t expect him to want us to do anything but think about where we stand.
Though since Dorothy reacted with anger, I’m no longer sure of that interpretation.
Judging from his recent It’s Walky! commentary – where, as I recall, he explicitly stated that he doesn’t particularly like writing “cheating” storylines, and repeatedly lambasted Danny for even thinking about a relationship with Sal while he was already in a relationship with Billie – I’m pretty sure none of us are supposed to be siding with Joyce here.
I think this comic is very much a portrait of people. It doesn’t reward good behaviours, or punish bad behaviours, it doesn’t always take a stance on which character is ‘right’.
(It does sometimes take a stance on which character is wrong, as with the abusive father-figures, but those are extreme cases.)
Right on the portrait theory probably. Joyce is obviously delusional (thanks to her upbringing) but does that enter the realm of right and wrong. There’s a lesson train coming down the tracks at her, I’m just not inclined to make it into a moral judgment. I lack the gift of prophecy as to what Willis is doing.
Except of course it does. It’s been very clear about right and wrong in many cases. It’s very definitely authorial stance that Joe’s behavior (before his recent changes) was wrong. (And there was a lot of defense of him in the commentariat as well.) It’s been very clear that Joyce’s initial attitudes on homosexuality were wrong – less debate from us on that.
There are definitely somethings where there is no clear stance taken, but since one of the big themes is Joyce learning and overcoming the crappy attitudes she’s picked up from her upbringing, I strongly suspect this is going to be a case where there is a stance.
Joyce believes if a woman can break up a couple its proof its truelove and therefore nobody will be able to break your couple up.
Joe believes if a woman is pretty enough she can break a couple up and eventually another pretty woman will break up the new couple.
Joe implied that Joyce could hurt the couple be being with Jacob, and couldn’t argue with Joyce’s assessment that she was good enough to be able to break the couple up. Joyce took it to mean because she is Jacob’s one true love when Joe meant that its just a matter of time before Jacob screws his relationship up but he does not want Joyce to be an accessory.
Now Dorothy is saying that if this succeeds it means Jacob has low loyalty. Joyce does not remember what Joe actually said just what she heard and thinks because Joe said she could break the couple up when she believed it meant true love thinks Joe said true love.
Why do I think Joe is going to get blamed for all of this?
But it’s obvious why he said it. That was practically a confession that if she is down with it, Joe will actually be faithful to her.
It’s completely other question if Joe is able to keep to such a promise.
Joe sure loves chicks reacting with “oh my god” to him.
No comments about (the
sublime eleganceof the drawing of) Joyce’s face in the third panel? Wow.Oops. That was supposed to be italics.
I was more struck with her face (FAAAAACCEEEE!) in panel 5.
Yup. If it wasn’t clear before she was rationalizing, she is now. Oh, Joyce. We love you, you butt.
That’s not what Joe said…
Panel 2 is what Dear Abby should provide as a response to something like half her letters.
And Dorothy in Panel 5 is the other half.
Another Huey Lewis and the News reference, love it.
Dorothy is very shameless. She’s taking a moral stand when she herself left Danny for Walky?
She didn’t “leave Danny for Walky” – she didn’t even MEET Walky until the day after she broke up with Danny (which, by the way, she had been trying to hint him at for some time – but he just wouldn’t take a hint). That was the day he threw a toy at her head, and she wouldn’t really begin dating him until about a week later.
You’re not the first to accuse her of this either. Are people really so quick to side with Joyce, or against Dorothy, that they’re accusing her of breaking causality?