May’s first Patreon bonus strip features Yuri! (Faz’s mom.) (Via flashback.) All patrons can come check it out at the Dumbing of Age Patreon!
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May’s first Patreon bonus strip features Yuri! (Faz’s mom.) (Via flashback.) All patrons can come check it out at the Dumbing of Age Patreon!
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“YOU failed the test FIRST, woman”
We cheated and we lied and we tested
And we never failed to fail
It was the easiest thing to do!–Crosby, Stills & Nash
“Wash hands, then talk” is my new way to avoid humans.
Joyce winds up spending so much time badgering Dorothy now that she has even less time to sleep and study, and gets back together with Walky simply so she can have a break.
completely forgot Walky had a person name
Dorothy takes tests seriously,.
Joyce truly is a friend of dorothy
A+
That joke will never get old
Joyce is the biggest friend of Dorothy.
I missed that the first time. Thanks.
Dorothy might be doing a second break-up before the end of the day.
…We’re sure Joyce is straight, right?
Absolutely not.
She’s sure she’s straight. She’s also sure the earth is 6000 years old.
No confidence whatsoever.
Somebody link to the comic where Walky tells Dorothy Joyce wants to shove her head between her legs
Not the one you asked for, but here’s my favorite: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/progress/
Aw I forgot how down Joyce was back then. Almost makes me glad to see her boundary braking grin here
See, I instantly thought of the one where she was staring too long at. Billie’s rack and got called on it.
There’s also the goldmine that is Joyce’s girl crush on Sal.
Queer as a three dollar bill with Trump and George W. Bush making out on it.
Joyce is sure she’s straight.
We only know for sure that she’s not into Becky.
Her crushes on Jacob and Dorothy might be of equal strength though.
If Joyce mentions Walky not being around for lunch because he’s to down to leave bed, anyone take a bet that Dorothy wouldn’t skip lunch?
All I know is my gut says “maybe”.
Of course she isn’t. As has been established, she is quite the friend of Dorothy.
Walky ceased to exist the moment Dorothy broke up with him, obviously. 😛
For Joyce, at least
He disappeared in a puff of
logicNachitos flavor dust.Then man proved that white equals black and got run over at the next zebra crossing.
Joyce, regardless of your desires, Dorothy is still an autonomous beign allowed to manage her time on her own.
No.
Although I think it is very Dorothy that she has not said a word of what she wants or needs, just what she thinks would be the proper thing in regards to others.
This is true, although that might be an evasive way to avoid saying, “Joyce, I literally don’t have time for this right now.”
I’m sure of it. But I’m not sure Dorothy have articulated that for herself yet.
Some strip soon Dorothy is going to explain to Joyce that she fired Walky to make time to study, not to make time for Joyce.
There will be tears before bedtime.
Exactly this.
David. Uh.
Conceal, don’t feel, eh, Dorothy?
yeah… “be the good girl you always have to be” certainly lines up with that perfectionism dorothy’s been showing. :/
So, when do her Abductee powers erupt? 😛
Aw geez so accurate. WELP
Standard disclaimer – Dorothy belongs to David Willis, Elsa belongs to Disney, I’m just here for the lulz
That’s fantastic.
I love it!
I don’t think Solo passed the Bechdel Test, while we’re kinda on the subject.
Most movies with a predominately male cast won’t pass it. It’s why the test is kinda bullshit.
The test itself isn’t really bullshit, it’s just that people overuse it. It’s supposed to be indicative of a larger problem over a large sample size, not applied to ever movie that comes out to determine how feminist one movie is.
You said it better than me, so thanks. 🙂
I mean you can’t really get a large sample size without examining whether any given movie would pass. Though, you are correct the test is meant to be used as an indicator of problems across the movie industry in general (i.e. ‘Only x percentage of movies released this year pass, that’s kinda sad) rather than a ‘is this movie feminist’ indicator. Again, the Twilight movies pass.
Also pretty much all lesbian porn.
Actually, the Bechdel test came into being as a punch line in a cartoon called “The rule” by Alison Bechdel. From there on, it developed a life of its own.
But in-comic the character used it to decide whether to watch a film or not. If it had at least two named women who talked to each other about something besides a man, she’d watch that movie. If not, not.
“The last movie I was able to see was ‘Alien’, the two women in it talk about the monster.”
From what I read, Solo fails in lots of other places, too.
Here’s the original:
http://dykestowatchoutfor.com/the-rule
I missed Rambo meets Godzilla at the Thalia? Darn.
I beg to differ. That’s pretty much the entire point of the test.
*face drops into palms*
yes, the fact that movies tend to have predominantly-male casts, which largely keeps the bechdel test from passing, is kind of the whole deal
The movie did lead to Mako Maori test where if you don’t pass the Bechdel Tets, a decent follow up is, “Did the movie have a major female character with a character arc unrelated to a man.” The surprise choice of Q’iri being pretty damn feminist.
I’m fairly sure the Mako Mori test is a test to see whether Characters of colour have their own character arc. Is there more than one?
I looked up “Mako Mori test” and all that came up was the feminist definition. Maybe you’re thinking of some other test.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mako_Mori_test
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Mako_Mori_test
It seems to come out of both – controversy about Pacific Rim failing the Bechdel test despite having a rare woman of color as a main character. Officially though it’s just the female character that’s required.
It’s interesting and probably better for individual movies, but I like Bechdel for the industry as a whole. It’s much simpler and more objective than figuring out whether X character is major enough to count or has a sufficient arc not to much in support of a male’s arc.
Which means it’s much easier to look at broad chunks of the industry and go – wow, this is all about men.
Ahh, I see. The definition I saw was on tumblr in the wake of Pacific Rim.
I guess it could apply to a variety of marginalized people now that I think about it.
I feel I worded my argument very poorly. The test itself is fine however the most Vocal of users tend to just use it to call certain movies sexist. I will agree we need more Females in movies however using the test to call Shawshank redemption (a movie which I’m pretty sure the only female character in it is dead) sexist is what’s gotten me to just say screw the whole test
movies like*
It’s not a test of movies, it’s a test of the movie INDUSTRY.
Also, I’ll never read “Females” and not immediately hear it in Duke Amiel Du H’ardcore’s dulcet “FeeeEEEEEmaaales” voice, so good job on that!
1) but that’s not how the vocal majority use it in my experience
2) I don’t understand how or why but okay
Yeah, it’s perfectly okay for a movie to fail the test. It becomes a problem when most or all the movies released in a given year fail it.
Women are half the population, but even if you look at ALL the movies and TV shows and average it, the percentage of women on screen is much lower.
I feel like this thread has devolved from talking about a singular movie.
I agree women need more representation in media but this whole thing started with solo and devolved into the industry as a whole
…That’s kinda on YOU?
Literally, all Architex said was that Solo didn’t pass the Bechdal test. There was no value judgement, no accusation that the film is sexist.
You’re the one who made a big thing about it because you assumed it was being applied in the way that annoys you the most, and derailed the entire thread away from the original topic.
feeeeeeemaaaaaales!
https://imgur.com/gallery/Moi8Rpr
Yeah, your use of the word “Females” and saying that a movie where the only female character is dead ISN’T sexist is really helping out your argument here, Jay.
That sounds pretty dang sexist.
Shawshank or my post? Because one means you need to watch that movie the other means I misrepresented part of my argument
Saying ‘this movie’s not sexist, there’s only one lady and she’s dead!’ is…not a great argument.
Well, 90% of the movie takes place is a men’s prison. It would be pretty unusual for there to be much space of women to interact with one another.
Sure, but that’s different than arguing ‘it can’t be sexist, the only woman is dead’. I’d argue that there could have been women in their backstories who could have interacted or on the staff at the prison, but the setting is still a better argument than ‘well the only woman is dead’.
It’s also originally about lesbian characters, as in, two women in a movie not talking to each other about anything but a man being so common is indicative how few and far between lesbian representation is in film
Really? I did not know that, interesting.
I don’t think so. It originally appeared in Dykes To Watch Out For, but the person proposing the rule said that Aliens passed the test because the two women were talking about the monster.
Most everyone in this nesting seems to be surprisingly unfamiliar with the concept being discussed.
The Bechdel test in its original usage referred to cultural generalities, but has since evolved to be able to apply in a movie-by-movie/show-by-show basis. The confusion here isn’t over the tests application, but over its intent. A show is fine failing the test so long as it has narrative basis for doing so; the issue comes in when women (or other minorities) are introduced solely in incredibly shallow support roles to the majority casting. An extension of that is how often the industry as a whole engages in such behavior, yes, but contrary to the comments above, the Bechdel test is very much relatable to individual works.
After all, if you think it through- and as Willis noted above- that’s very much the entire point of the test. “ie, Are these real characters, or just props”. The test in its current utilization actually to character depth, and how a lack thereof reflects problematic social perceptions. Anything past that is just appropriation of the test for secondary purposes.
To reiterate and restate: An individual movie fails the test if they include females who exist solely as shallow support roles for the males in the film. The industry fails the test if there are nearly no films that include fleshed out female roles.
Where you apply the test does change its paradigm slightly, but there is no limitation as to where it can be applied.
Edits:
“A show is fine failing the test” – I should have phrased that, “failing to meet the criteria of the test”.
the test in its current utilization
actuallyapplies to character depth,Except that’s all kind of backwards. In it’s original usage it was a joke and the standard a movie had to pass for the character making the joke to see it.
It evolved from there into a broad criticism of the industry as a whole – the pattern of so many movies failing was what was important. Meanwhile the entire time, people have argued “but that’s stupid. There are perfectly good reasons “X” movie didn’t pass, so the whole idea is invalid.”
Part of the point of the test is that it’s simple and objective. There’s no need to weigh how fleshed out the female characters are or how much they’re support roles. That’s all subjective and easy to bog down in endless debate. Are there two named female characters who talk about something besides men? Easy to check. (Though even that can get a little blurry sometimes.)
Solo disappoints because it comes so close – It has multiple strong interesting female characters – even if it does kill several off them off a bit too quickly. Sadly, the most prominent conversation between two of them (Qi’ra and L3) focuses not just on men, but specifically on relationships.
There was also a missed opportunity near the end to have scene with Qi’ra and Enfys Nest – which could have been used as a bit more foreshadowing of Qi’ra’s actions in the finale.
That’s literally what it measures.
On singular movies?
I mean, kinda hard to see industry patterns if you can’t examine individual movies which, as you said, often include predominantly male casts.
Not what I meant by that but okay
It measures on individual movies so it can see patterns in the industry, so yeah, on individual movies.
It measures individual movies and the pattern emerges when you find out you can only watch 1 in 10 or more blockbuster movies if you follow the rule.
Since 1993, the number of movies that pass has increased, but it’s still frustrating to see how fixated most movie storytellers are on the male as the central point of interest.
.
1985, actually, I should read the source es provide 😏
Pretty much.
Technically yes, but also remember that the Bechdel Test is literally a joke from a comic strip.
It found actual use as a way to evaluate trends.
Mind you, Solo does get the benefit of three major female characters. It’s just the irony they’re people who never meet up.
Well, as I said above Qi’ra does get to talk to L3 – but they just talk men.
Qi’ra and Nest meet up, but don’t actually get to talk on screen, IIRC.
She’s insufferable!!!! Of course, I already knew this!!! @_@
Hard to believe this is the same Joyce from the beginning of the strip. How much time has passed in-Story? A couple of months?
Today should be October 13, or close to it.
You know what now that I think about it would Joyce have thought that any guy out there would be good enough for Dorothy?
Horror scenario: Joyce tries to set up Dorothy with Jocelyne.
Would that actually be horrible? Seriously, what’s the worst that could happen? Joyce learns that she has a sister, Dorothy says “You’re nice, but I’m not into women,” and they all stay friends. (I don’t know/remember Jocelyne’s orientation; if she’s not into women, then the ship would never leave harbor, and nothing bad would happen.)
she’s definitely into men, but we don’t know anything definitive about women 😀
Dorothy, now more than ever, does not want to jump back into a relationship. Joyce is an avid romantic who won’t respect that boundary.
Also, it would be a really crappy way for Jocelyne to have to come out (especially since a storyline like that has a decent chance of dragging Carol back into the picture). I’m sure Joyce would eventually be ‘fine’ with it, but the whole thing sounds like a potential disaster along the way.
I am curious if Jocelyn reciprocated Ethan’s sexual interest. I am also not entirely sure if that interest continued for Ethan on learning Jocelyn was not a dude. Ethan certainly appreciated Jocelyn on an aesthetic level, which, I mean, Jocelyn’s probably one of the most attractive members of the cast, so I certainly don’t blame Ethan.
I think it’s fairly clear that she did, just based on her staring at him when they first met and how they started talking together, and her recognition of what was going on. That’s strengthened (for me) when she says “I’m not actually gay,” which suggests the interest was there, it just happens not to be a homosexual interest, for reasons of which Ethan is at that point unaware.
Of course he would. He would just have to be JUST as perfect in any way as Dorothy, be as kind and nice and smart and funny and sMell as good and… NOPE, TURNS OUT THERE ARE NO GUYS LIKE THAT, GUESS JOYCE WILL HAVE TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH DOROTHY INSTEAD, IN A WAY THAT IS TOTALLY PLATONIC I’M SURE.
While I always understood the Joyce x Dorothy ship, I didn’t really get the appeal until this strip.
I don’t understand or get the appeal of any Joyce ship. She’s too coocoo for coco puffs for anyone imo.
It’s wrong, and I kind of hate it, but I ship Joyce and Mike.
Joyce needs to get better at recognizing and respecting other people’s boundaries, but she’s a smart, caring, affectionate person with a good sense of humor (and is adorable)
People with neurosis like hers are just as deserving of love as anyone else.
It’s Joyce; boundaries only matter for foodstuffs.
Joyce/Joe or maybe Joyce/Jacob would be fun.
Does seem like she has an attraction for big guys with broad shoulders, between the two of them and Ethan. She also found Walky attractive when she was younger, but dunno if she still does, under like 6 layers of belligerence.
Never ever expected to be of this view about Joyce, but Dorothy feel free to tell your bestie to shut up, stop acting like a self centered asshole, go away and give you space and possibly think how to approach this thing from the perspective of someone pained and grieving. Feel free to be nicer about than I am if you like.
Joyce, Dorothy still has autonomy. You realize this right? You can’t just ‘claim’ her time. If it worked like that, Sal and Marcie would be having fewer problems.
Also, you brought him up. 😛
(On that note – Dorothy, offering to recuse yourself is sweet but like…you’re gonna see him around if you want to or not. He’s in your gender studies class).
“I dumped Walky because I have no time for anybo….”
“SHHH.”
Monthly reminder from me that Dorothy Is Not Doing Well, so it’s really, really hard to tell whether she’s in the right here, or just less in the wrong. But to summarize the potential problems here:
1. Joyce is being extremely needy, extremely thoughtless, and really, *really* pushy. “You are getting lunch with me after math.” Joyce is absolutely not respecting Dorothy’s boundaries.
2. As pointed out above, Dorothy is invoking Walky’s problems instead of her own. She is still putting Walky first, and it is difficult to say whether she’s doing this because she is completely incapable of putting her own needs before anyone else’s (I actually don’t think this is likely) or because she is unwilling or scared to just tell Joyce, “Joyce, I do not have time for you right now.”
3. While Joyce is unquestionably in the wrong here for pushing Dorothy so hard in a difficult time (and in such an invasive way), let’s not forget that Dorothy is steadily isolating herself from badly-needed self-care. It is one thing to put your career above your love life—it is another to put it above your social and emotional needs.
Dorothy and Walky have always been two sides of the same self-destructive coin. It’s no wonder they meshed so well, and also no wonder it became a burden on both of them (Walky feeling intensely pressured to be Good Enough, Dorothy feeling intensely pressured to Help).
4. Yes, I still ship this. But Joyce has gotta learn.
5. Dorothy and walky for life. Fite me.
Polyamory solves almost all shipping problems I’m just saying.
Between Joyce’s possessiveness, Walky’s rejection of anything resembling maturity, and Dorothy’s demand for perfectionism…. yeah that’s got more than enough problems for a stable polyarmorous relationship.
Since when does realism stop shippers?
The only stable relationship in this comic is the polyamorous one between Mike and everyone’s mother.
In regards to point 1, if this was a ‘you just went through a breakup, so you’re spending time with me to get your mind off things’, that’d be fine. But Joyce explicitly stated that this is for her. She wants Dorothy all to herself.
Ooh, and I just noticed—Dorothy said “Wash hands, then talk” and Joyce just OUTRIGHT ignored her and kept talking. Not cool, Joyce!
#2 is a good point… I used to do that myself, probably because “I don’t want to” was not exactly persuasive as a child. I’m still unlearning that habit of ignoring my desires and focusing on what I “should” want (made annoyingly complicated by anxiety insisting we don’t want *anything* because everything will definitely be horrible – especially if it isn’t). sometimes I don’t even *know* what I want, I’ve suppressed it so long. :/
Recuse? Looks like I learned a new word today.
washing her hands! i guess this is how we know she’s not evil
Or how we know she’s WEAK.
I’m trying my hardest to look at Dorothy’s breakup with Walky objectively, but that uphill struggle just went vertical fast when she decided to start calling him “David” in a try-hard effort to be detached.
Like I get moving on is a process, but if she’s not actually faking her whole “yuppie life quadrant” bullshit then Jesus Christ she’s colder than Sarah.
Also whenever I see her I’m tempted to be like “Hey dip shit only 1 in 4 presidents actually went to the ivies-a lot of em actually spent college living real lives and not pantomiming adulthood.”
It is only now that I remembered enough of her arc that everything’s contextualized. It’s still aggravating to watch, but more in a “my aunt keeps insisting on flying to Tunisia to marry someone she’s never met and barely knows” kind of way where I have to sympathize with the individual, as opposed to a “she has the EQ of a hyperliterate cockatiel” kind of obnoxiousness.
She also calls him David during moments when she’s being serious. It’s not necessarily her trying to be detached, though that’s likely part of it.
Oof. Uh, very very uncomfortable with the idea of Joyce co-opting Maxine Walters’ catchphrase (which I’ve seen strictly used for black women and women of color to respond to racism) as a white girl who used to be a fundamentalist. Seems tone deaf.
Joyce have you considered that maybe Dorothy doesn’t want to hang out more with someone willing to toss aside their friends? Particularly a friend Dorothy cares about?
Right, now that she’s Resort at to drastic measures I don’t think she would stop at just excommunicating one person who’s proven to be consuming her time.
Again, Joyce and walky were never friends. Joyce has always openly hated him
I wouldn’t go THAT far. She’s never been CLOSE friends with Walky, and they frequently aggravate each other, but they ARE friends.
She’s been able to rely on him to walk her to class, and when Becky came out and Joyce told Becky that she was gonna stay with her and “We will be your family“, she even mentioned Walky specifically, even if begrudgingly.
Their relationship is just a lot like siblings is all, and she’s much, much closer to Dorothy. Plus I get the feeling she really, really has needed some time to talk with Dorothy, who has been sequestering herself for DAYS now
Right. She likes Walky more than she lets out, and same goes for Walky. he gives her shit, but has also demonstrated that he cares about her.
Joyce doesn’t really seem to *hate* anyone in the cast outside of Ryan, even Raidah, who she has had a distaste for even before Jacob came into the picture.
She’s fought worse with Joe than Walky, and she still cares about him. (granted, she also is closer with Joe in some respects)
I feel like hate is a strong word. When she was talking about people who she wanted to be with at school when she visited home, she said Dorothy, Walky, and Billie. Sarah didn’t even make the cut! (As seen here: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/scared/)
They squabble and they act like they don’t like each other but when friends are needed, Joyce counts Walky.
So yeah, this is kinda crappy.
Kinda crappy, but also part of that “act like they don’t need each other”.
It’s a pattern Walky also falls easily into – see his relationship with Billie.
It’s mostly the timing that’s kinda crappy. I mean, as far as she knows, he spent the night bawling in his sleep over this breakup. At least when Walky knew Billie was down he tried to be less obnoxious.
You know just to chime in here I just got to say, Joyce once asked what people saw in Walky and we’ll I think the awnser to that is clear now. Walky unlike Joyce isn’t all that pushy about intimate bonding, sure with Joyce she has a charm about warming her way into your heart eventually but that doesn’t really work half the time because being invasive and insistent all the time is moreally likely to get people to raise the defenses twords you more than lower them.
As an example this is probably why Amber was more capable of relaxing around Walky more than was with Joyce. Best thing Joyce can do is not to give up her desire to want break through to people but probably take it down a notch so she isn’t smashing through like a wrecking ball.
… okay just realize what I did, don’t dare any of you try to quote what I think your quote.
…Can I drop a link though? I mean come on, with a set up like that.
😒………….😧 when did I become the designated buzzkill around here? Fine have at it.
HOORAY! 😀
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dtre2Yiw78
Smashing into people’s hearts aside I think you nailed it. Dorothy herself hooked up with him for this exact reason, no obligations, no serious relationship. Just an easy ship existing just to relax. If Joyce is the wrecking ball trying to break into your heart Walky is a wall that just stands there, you can rest against it, you can support yourself while barfing at it and then move on. Interacting with Walky is easy and cost free.
Yeah and then she fell in love with him and built obligations and changed it into a serious relationship. 🙂
If Joyce is a wrecking ball, maybe Walky just slips in quietly while you’re distracted by his antics.
Okay, but don’t forget Walky’s… was it caramel abs? There is physical attraction, if that scene in the elevator didn’t make it clear enough.
Missed a real opportunity here in not titling this strip “David”.
Funny that Joyce and Dorothy are referencing politicians from their opposing views.
*Well, Joyce is not quite right-leaning, but she was raised in a conservative household.
Recent events have probably changed Joyce’s voting preferences.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/wouldve/
Although, to be fair, a vote for Robin is now a vote för Becky-who-secretly-manages-her-twitter-account, so who knows?
Yeah I don’t know how to phrase Joyce’s stance properly myself (and for good reason I’m not the creator). All I can say for sure is the background in which she was raised.
Jesus, Joyce. These last few months (our time) have not shown you at your best.
She’s had bad moments, but also good ones, such as showing Faz kindness. Whether or not he was earnestly behaving as he said he was (per Joyce’s request) or lying, she still extended humanity to him in a way no one else in the cast had.
Joyce has a crush on Dotty confirmed!
DAVID?? ice cold, dotty
It’s hard to pass the Bechdel test when all you’ve been talking about was Walky getting dumped.
In Joyce’s defence, I doubt that she really got what the Test is supposed to be about. In her book, it’s fine to talk (obsessively) about boys so long as the conversation goes in the direction that she wants! :-p
That’s very likely.
Talking about Walky being a poopyhead is perfectly passable in her book as long as ladies do the talking.
Ah so it passes the test when women bash the men in their conversation huh? How very human…
How very Joyce, at least.
(Just to be clear – that is not how the Bechdel test works, that’s just my unsupported idea of Joyce’s misconceptions of it)
Heh sorry, my disgust with Tumblr was leaking through
😉
I’m just sick of it’s hatemongering and infighting.
I hear ya.
Humans and their ingroups and othering, amirite?
Like you wouldn’t believe. I naively believed that LGBT movement was united and had good intentions. Then I learnt about Bisexual treatment, TERFs, division between White and Black and just… I’m just really tired of people stabbing each other in the back and face all the time.
Unfortunately things like biphobia, homophobia, transphobia and racism don’t go away even when you’re marginalized along other axis. Everyone has to try to unlearn things. I do believe most people have good intentions and want unity but yeah, those kinds of things don’t just evaporate.
It is fine to talk about boys. The Bechdel Test only checks to make sure they do literally anything else at least a little.
Not entirely sure if it’s good when the “anything else” includes breaking into someone’s toilet cubicle and ranting at them.
Nothing says it makes it good. It just says the women are there and not talking about men.
This particular strip doesn’t pass. The comic’s very first strip does. With a poop joke.
Research project:
Does DoA overall pass the Bechdel test?
You’d have to define what “pass overall” means. Judged as a whole it does. There’s a scene where two named female characters talk about something other than a man.
Equally obviously, not every single individual strip does – there are days in which no female characters appear at all.
I suppose you could check every book. Or every chapter or some such.
I’ve seen tv shows judged by episode and then a pass being ‘more episodes pass than not’. I suppose an equivalent format would be judge per storyline and than if more storylines pass than not, it’d be an overall pass.
And even then… does the strip where Billie describes Joyce’s upcoming party as one where there will be “no boys to fuck her” and Ruth says she thought Billie wasn’t on the market anymore pass the test or not? They’re not talking about a specific guy, and the real subject is their own relationship…
As Leslie points out from the start, the test is a very, very broad weapon.
BOY it’s painful seeing Dotty use “David” JUST after Walky requested the exact same thing over on It’s Walky! for horrible reasons.
JOYCE. You fuggin’ goober
Dunno about the Bechdel test…
But Joyce is certainly breaching Wheaton’s Law.
Seriously, screw you Joyce. you are a terrible person.
Annoying at worst. I think the term “terrible person” got kinda devalued… I mean we have the likes of Toedad, Blaine, Mary and Mike in this comic.
There’s a big different between momentarily being a jerk and generally being a jerk, and she is not generally a jerk. She’s behaving terribly however, I agree.
This is completely typical of her behaviour, though. She steamrolls people’s boundaries, even over explicit requests to stop, all the time.
She’s a jerk with a heart of gold, sure, but being a jerk in this manner is not an aberration in her behaviour, it’s one of her default modes.
Shit, you’re right.
She did just come fresh from hearing a record of Walky crying himself to sleep and is talking about reclaiming her time. I mean, thats pretty cold.
She’s a jerk with a heart of Bible.
“The boyfriend is gone and I claim right of salvage.”
“Yar matey, this booty be ours!”
I’m beginning to see a point when Walky and Becky made fun of Joyve for being gay for Dorothy.
Also, mean Joyce! 🙁
“Oh my gosh it’s (X ship), it’s my ship, maybe it’s finally happening”
“Ah wait (character) what are you doiiing”
“NOT LIKE THIIIIIS!”
Is it just me or does Joe and Joyce make the most sense?
Joe and Joyce have the best communication with each other compared to any other pairing in the cast.
He seems to be able to get Joyce’s human side to come out easier than anyone else since and allows her the freedom to really own what she wants not what she thinks she should want (see him talking to her about Jacob).
For whatever reason he seems to be the only one who can get her to listen and accept other points of view.
As for Joe, he is actually a really good guy around her. He is very respectful (now at least), especially after the whole getting drugged thing, and I would put my money on the fact that he would go waaaaaaaaay out of his way to not hurt her if he got into a relationship with her, which is more than I could say of his attitude and interaction towards most anyone else (male or female).
tl;dr Joe and Joyce balance each other out the best and ground each other in reality better than anyone else and would actually have a very healthy and functional relationship since they communicate clearer with each other than anyone else.
PS They totally have the hots for each other but don’t want to have the hots for each other so ignore it.
I agree. I’ve been hardcore shipping them ever since the reveal that Joe was her texting buddy when she went to her parents after the Toe Dad incident.
I’d like to see them grow closer and eventually form a relationship.
The only character that could be better for Joyce than Joe would be Jacob. I’m totally with you.
Jacob would be good for Joyce (Jacob would be good for anyone) but Joyce wouldn’t be good for Jacob.
At the moment Raidah gives Jacob all the support he needs without suffocating him whereas I get the feeling that Joyce would expect Jacob to spend all his time with her not to mention the drama Joyce finds herself in
I suspect that might actually be good for Jacob. Give him a little challenge he doesn’t have with Raidah.
Joyce, your inner yandere is showing, and also, screw you! No matter how I feel about Dorothy, you can’t force yourself into a drama like that! Did Joyce was possessed by anti Joyce after the Faz’s story arc?
The Bechdel test confuses me, in a world with so many variables.
If two women are talking to each other about each other, but are interested romantically in each other, do they pass the test?
If two women are talking about a male animal, do they pass the test?
What if the male animal is the main character or protagonist, like Curious George, Garfield, or Flipper?
When Mike and Walky discuss the dinosaur Walky drew in Math class, does that fail a reverse-Bechdel test if the dinosaur was a female?
What if two women are discussing a trans male, can their pass or failure be dependent on if they’re discussing that person in present tense or past tense?
If two women are discussing another individual who doesn’t identify as any sex, does that pass the test?
Conversely, if two people who don’t identify as any gender in particular are discussing a male, does that pass or fail the test?
– Yes. The test was originally conceived by a lesbian. The point isn’t ‘no romance’. It’s ‘do movies have a problem with women only talking about men’.
– Probably? I mean, the strip the test was created in said a movie passed because the characters were talking about the monster in Alien. It also says ‘man’ and generally animals aren’t considered ‘men’ unless they’re. anthropomorphized.
– See above re: Anthropomorphized. Curious George or Flipper might count but I don’t think Garfield would.
– Again, re: Anthropomorphized. Probably not.
– A trans man is a man. Pretty sure talking about him doesn’t pass.
– It just says it can’t be about a man so probably.
– That wouldn’t be part of the test because it’s explicitly about named women talking about anything other than a man. Two agender people wouldn’t be part of the test. If anything, it’d probably fail because neither are women.
Isn’t the first part of the bechdel test that there have to be at least two women? So if there were only men and agender characters (or otherwise characters who were neither men nor women), it wouldn’t pass.
That said I’d be all for a test where it includes other genders, but not if it meant replacing the only women characters.
(and thanks BBCC re the trans part. Wright, I am sure you didn’t mean it to be, but that question was really gross)
Actually I would be fine with non-cis characters replacing cis women, I just think it would be stupid and against the point to replace women characters when there’s only 1-2 of them and presumably a whole cast of men.
Well, think about it in terms of still closeted trans-folk. If Joyce and Becky were talking about Jocelyne, would that pass because she’s a woman or fail because they think they’re talking about a guy? Similarly, but reversed if it was a trans man.
Mostly I think all these technical questions mostly miss the point. If you’ve got a cast full of agender characters, you’re probably doing alright. 🙂
I’d judge by the character’s actual gender in that case. Jocelyne’s a girl, regardless of Joyce and Becky’s mistake. Since WE know she’s a girl, I think it’d be fair to count as ‘talking about a girl (even if they don’t know it).’
Yep, the test rules state it must be two named women talking about something other than a man.
There probably could stand to be a test where other marginalized characters talk about anything else – for example, two trans characters talking about anything but cis characters. But for the purposes of the Bechdel test, it’d be two women.
Ugh, OK, sorry about the grossness. Thst really came out wrong. I know that a trans man is a man, though I think I really showed my ignorance here.
I kind of feel I owe some sort of explanation. I’m a cis guy who lives in a small rural town and don’t really know much because I haven’t encountered it. My main understanding of LGBTQIA culture literally comes from this comic and the comments section, and whatever I can think of to Google search. And I mean this literally- I hadn’t ever heard of the word ‘cis’ until Robin started slobbering all over an imaginary cis male’s pointy bits.
I’ve got an old friend who sort of dropped off of Facebook for a while, then I met him at my ten-year reunion and found out he was trans. He literally phrased it saying “Yeah, I know you knew me as a girl, but I’m a guy now.” And he also referred to himself during high school as “Girl Bobbi” a bunch, so I kind of walked away with the impression that Rob’s gender once was female but now is male, rather than just always have being male but no one else ever knew.
Willis hasn’t really gone in-depth in his comic about trans people; Carla and Jocelyne are supporting characters at best; you’d never know Carla was trans if not for Mary (heck, I didn’t), and Jocelyne has always been portrayed as a male. As for Alex, he literally acted like his past self was on the run from the feds or something, and it was over in one strip. I didn’t have anything to challenge my misconception.
And so yeah, when I wrote the above question, I was thinking of Rob – like literally, if my mom and his were discussing him as a ten-year-old, would that be a Bechdel test fail because though he lived as a girl then, Rob is a guy. And thanks to BBCC and Axel, I think I understand now.
Legitimately, I’m sorry to anyone here that I offended. I’m not trying to deny who you are; just a dumb old guy who’s trying to grow here.
The whole point of the Bechdel test is that it’s so freaking rare in mainstream movies for any of these possibilities to even occur. Mainstream movies often do not concern themselves with the inner lives of anybody but straight cis guys, with the women in them often being essentially “accessories” who have no depth of character beyond their attachment to the men in their lives. If a movie focuses at all on LGBT people, they’re ahead of the game.
The Bechdel test is kind of meant to be a ridiculously low bar to clear. That’s what makes it so depressing that so many works fail it.
I can see Dorothy becoming one of those type of politicians that will say anything to anyone, not because she wants to lie but more because she doesn’t seem to want to hurt anyone and wants to keep the peace.
So instead of saying something like “I need some space and you’re crowding me” shes all “I better not because Walky might be there”
At some point Dorothy has to stand up to Joyces bullying (and it is a form of bullying) otherwise she’ll just feel even worse about things in that she dumped Walky because she needed more time to study but if Joyce decides to take up all of Dorothys time then she’ll just be in the position as she was before
I’ve always thought it was an unlikely paring, Dorothy and Walky, however when it comes to comparing Walky and Joyce I’d say Joyce can be quite high maintenance (time-wise) whereas Walky is probably quite good at making Dorothy relax
Given how she was perfectly able to be honest with Walky when she broke things off, I think that she really is more concerned about that right now than with Joyce’s behavior.
It’s not as if this has been a persistent issue between Joyce and Dorothy. Joyce has respected her desire to focus on her studies up until this incident, and hasn’t even gotten this pushy with her before that I can remember.
Dorothy totally should put her foot down if she needs to, but she’s perfectly capable of doing that. She’ll be fine. At least in that respect. If she tries to break off ALL social interaction like this for too long, she’s definitely going to burn herself out, but she can handle Joyce.
I tried looking for some old comics for when Dorothy stopped Walky saying something about Joyces religion when Joyce said something about believing in made up stuff but I couldn’t locate them
Seems to me Dorothy is reluctant to call Joyce out when she needs calling out, slut-shaming Roz for example, so unless Dorothy can take the chance of hurting Joyces feelings (like Joe takes) she’ll be having to skirt around the issue of Joyces inappropriate behaviour
Dorothy stopping Walky from being a jerk to Joyce about her religion is a perfectly reasonable thing for her to do.
But here’s that slut-shaming incident you mentioned:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/petals/
Dorothy DID say something to Joyce about her slut shaming, and does so again in the next strip, even though she can barely get a word in what with Roz already yelling at her.
She’s also challenged Joyce on religious topics before, even when Joyce was in a bad mood and getting upset about it:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/passage/
Dorothy did struggle with talking to Joyce about the plan to post Ryan’s picture on social media, and that was caused by how much she didn’t want to hurt Joyce by bringing up a painful subject, but she still managed to do it in the end.
She barely said anything you mean, but true it was heated situation. She did challenge Joyce but only after Joyce brought it up.
1) Once Roz started shouting, there was neither the need for Dorothy to say much, nor the room for her to do do
2) How the hell is Dorothy supposed to confront Joyce about something BEFORE she says it?
I’d say Dorothy’s trying to ease Joyce along gently, rather than confront and call her out at every step.
She’s pushed back at her hard a couple of times: This is no longer adorable. Which is also, by the by, an example of her shutting down Walky’s teasing about religion.
Well, that is the majority of how their relationship started.
Sigh… these two precious broken babies keep breaking my heart.
Nearly every comment I ever make goes to moderation hell and is never seen. I give up on the comments. Of the many I have submitted I have only seen one or two and they are never bad.
Ironically this one shows up.
But the one I posted seconds after the comic went up never did, oh woe is me. 😉
“Bonus strip features Yuri! (Faz’s mom.)” That has got to be the most disappointing set of parentheses I’ve ever seen.
Hey, that’s what Slipshine is for.
I’m still getting used to her frequent sassiness.