Also the dinosaur must be a billionaire, or from space.
Oh, Chuck Tingle. He also did one titled ‘Oppressed in the Butt by My Non-Denominational Holiday Coffee Cup’. (I may be misremembering the exact words, but not by much.)
If that becomes a real one, it will take the honor of greatest title ever from ‘Pounded by the Pound: Turned Gay by the Socioeconomic Implications of Britain Leaving the European Union’. Second place is obviously ‘Heavy Metal Unicorn Lawyer Sings Into My Butthole Legally’. Wait, that latter one sounds like it could be a Jacob/Joe Slipshine, which makes it better…I’ve decided to flip those two in my rankings.
I was particularly fond of Slammed in the Butt by My Hugo Award Nomination, which he used to troll the Gamergater trolls trying to troll the Hugos by nominating him for one. 🙂
This has become my headcanon, only it has burst through the walls of headcanondom and become reality. Sorry, Willis, if that’s not what you were planning, but there are four lights and all.
When I was younger I wanted to legally change my name to drop my middle name. Nothing wrong with “Michael”, it just didn’t speak to me. Maybe Jocelyn J. Brown is Joycelyn L. Brown’s nom de plume. Why not?
I wanted to change my name for the longest time (especially after making what retroactively feels like a huge mistake and using my real name online), and for a long time I thought I could only do it when I got married b/c LOL WHY QUESTION THE PATRIARCHY
then I realized I could just change it whenever but held off b/c I couldn’t decide
then I finally got married and just changed the spelling of my middle name to match the otherwise same name of a character I like (plus his name as a compound middle name)
…idk, all my other preferred names I ended up giving to my OCs and it feels weird sharing 🤷♀️
I think its the whole “the acorn doesn’t fall far from the tree” argument.
If your siblings haven’t really done anything worth while with their lives, there is a chance that your family doesn’t put much emphasis in achievement in general and YOU won’t amount to much.
Maybe its true, maybe its not. (I’m sure people can come up with examples that either prove or disprove the idea.)
That’s the ideal. However, America’s a lot like the rest of the world socially, in that there’s a TON of social pressure to ‘take after your parents’. It takes a LOT of effort to fight that, and the fact that it’s legal to do so, here, still doesn’t make it easy.
Not necessarily “take after your parents”, unless your parents have the kind of family business that tends to get passed down.
More that basic social class stuff does matter more than we like to pretend. And family does drive social class. Best predictor of income is family income.
What Raidah is trying to get in Jacob’s head is that Joyce is beneath him. That she doesn’t have wealth or status, nor a path to wealth or status, whereas he does. Because that’s what Raidah’s priorities are, and she assumes that they’re Jacob’s too.
She also believes that she’s the best suited to get to what she KNOWS Jacob’s goals are – becoming successful at law, live up to his brother’s reputation, and making his family proud.
My impression was that Raidah raised the subject of Jacob’s brother’s work with transgender rights hoping to inspire some good old fundie hate speech from Joyce.
Good thought. It could be a two-fer. She’s definitely pushing the “you and Joyce want different things” angle, but angling for the prejudice works too.
I could see that with the transgender issue, except Raidah doesn’t actually give Joyce a chance to respond before changing the subject completely (at least as far as anyone at the table knows, unless Raidah has done some serious cyber-sleuthing on Joyce’s family)
More than anything, the obvious read to me is that she’s pushing “Jacob, you come from a good family (in terms of wealth and status) and you are going places (in terms of wealth and status). Joyce is neither of those things. Joyce is lesser. Joyce is unworthy of having you, unlike me, who you already know enjoys a similar position of wealth and status.”
It is super showing Raidah’s priorities on her sleeve, to the point that she assumes they’re everyone’s priorities.
And there is an aspect of Jacob that wants that, but not in the sense that he needs to be part of a ‘high power’ couple to be fulfilled. He wants to be successful, but his version of successful isn’t about being above others, it’s about achieving his own potential. What he needs is a partner who supports him and his goals, not someone who further adds to his wealth and status as Raidah is selling.
I agree that’s what she’s pushing.
I’m not so sure Jacob’s vision of success is as clear. I want it to be, because I like him, but we haven’t seen enough to be sure Raidah isn’t somewhat on the right track.
Personally, I don’t want Jacob to be that shallow, but I would like to see the dude have some flaws, if only for the sake of character.
If one of those flaws is him being shallow and materialistic, oh well.
The whole “he helped strike down those anti-transgender laws” bit, maybe Raidah presumed that would be a subtle dig to make Joyce feel uncomfortable, considering her fundamentalist upbringing?
(Sorry if someone already brought this up, the comments have exploded this week!)
You know Raidah, you might think you’re winning this exchange, and to be fair Joyce doesn’t deserve to win, but you just seem petty. I hope Jacob realizes what is going on here and leaves with neither one of them, he really doesn’t need either one. I don’t know, maybe I’m not giving one of them enough credit but neither one are very endearing at the moment.
I was on the fence about this whole thing, but after the last couple of strips I’m firmly on Team Joyce on this one. It’s not even Joyce or Sarah’s fault breaking up Raidah’s relationship if Raidah ends up doing it herself.
And Joyce is honestly going about her ‘business’ in the best way possible, especially since finding out Sarah’s plan. (Tellingly to me, since finding out, she hasn’t talked up Sarah and is continuing to not badmouth Raidah or take shenanigans action.) She likes this boy. He has a girlfriend. She continues to be friends with the boy because they have shared interests. His girlfriend shows up unexpectedly to a group lunch. Joyce is perfectly friendly and conversational.
Like, I honestly really really have a hard time faulting Joyce’s actual behavior with Jacob. Whatever her thoughts/feelings/wishes, she’s conducting herself as Jacob’s friend. She’s not pushing anything, getting petty or passive-aggressive, or anything.
That may change! But for now the bad behavior is all Raidah’s.
I know, right? Raidah’s being pretty horrible. But then again, I’ve never really seen Raidah be anything but a sneaky snake in the grass. As grumpy as Sarah can be, at least she’s always been honest with her misanthropy…
Also, I honestly don’t get all the Joyce hate I’ve been seeing here lately – even when she was trying to talk up Sarah to Jacob, she wasn’t pushing him to break up with Raidah, just doing her best to make Sarah sound good… which, frankly, isn’t a bad thing to try and do on behalf of someone you consider to be a close friend. (And really – Joyce loves almost everyone she hangs out with like they’re her closest friends, probably because Becky’s the only real friend she’s ever had, until now.)
Same here, re: the Joyce hate. People keep referring to her hitting on Jacob in front of Raidah, and she’s really not. She hasn’t hit on him once. She’s been his friend, and some of their friendliness might drift into friendly flirting, but that is absolutely not the same as hitting on someone. Raidah is able to tell that Joyce likes him, but if Joyce isn’t hitting on him (which she really isn’t), she’s not really guilty of trying any shit.
I would absolutely call her behaviour flirting, personally. Joyce-level flirting, anyway, which alternates between far more smooth than I expected to… about as giggly and freaked out as I expected.
And she now knows the plan was for her to “seduce” (in the heaviest quotation marks there!) Jacob away from Raidah. She knows that and is FINE with that- in fact, she seems actively scheming about it. And I don’t much care about Raidah, and in this case I feel like she’s somewhat irrelevant as an individual- Joyce doesn’t know her and has no reason to care about hurting her. But she’s showing a complete lack of respect for JACOB’S wishes and that is a terrible sign for any sort of relationship. Jacob has stated he’s happy with Raidah, and Joyce is just fine with trying to sabotage that- even if it’s in innocent Joyce fashion.
Buuut that’s where my recent drop in respect for Joyce comes from, for me.
Yeah, I also don’t really see anything much wrong with what Joyce is doing… So far to me she just seems like she’s continuing to be Jacob’s friend, which is nice, because I think they can be really good friends!
I don’t get this.
I mean, she’s being relatively subtle about it – though not so subtle that everyone but Jacob isn’t aware of it, but she’s not just continuing to be Jacob’s friend. Her intentions are clearly romantic.
You can certainly decide to just be friends with someone you’ve got a crush on because they’re already with someone else. It’s not always emotionally easy, but it can be done. That’s not what Joyce is doing here. We see that in her attitude shift when she realized Joe and Sarah thought she had a chance with him, in that smile when she told Sarah not to worry about tricking her, in those expressions when Raidah showed up at this lunch.
She and Raidah are clearly fighting over Jacob and they both know it.
Raidah’s being nastier about it, because that’s the kind of person she is.
It’s not quite that clear-cut, though. It’s necessary to remember Joyce is a Grand Master at the art of living with cognitive dissonance. She is attracted to Jacob, and she has become consciously aware of that as Sarah’s plot was revealed to her.
But I don’t think she is actively trying to seduce Jacob away. Rather, she believes that because Raidah is unworthy (note that her negative opinion of Raidah is derived, not just from being Jacob’s girlfriend, but from her treatment of both Sarah and Dina)–and in Joyce’s mindset, the unworthy don’t get good things.
So she’s expecting “Jacob + Raidah” to fail regardless of what she does. Her interactions with Jacob, both prior to and after Joe’s revelation, are built as much around making sure he sees the new option once that happens–she’s simply switched from backing Sarah for that role to herself.
It’s a subtle difference, and certainly some others involved would likely not see it that way. But to Joyce’s mindset, if simply being a better/better-suited person than Raidah is enough to destroy their relationship, it was built on sand to begin with.
What might shock her, though, would be Jacob being in some way unfaithful to Raidah (even just a kiss)–her expectation would be that he would formally break it off first, then begin a relationship with Joyce instead. Her straightforward view of the world very, very often fails to incorporate or account for the fact that people are complicated.
It’s possible, I suppose. It seems to me though that from the very start she’s more dismissed Raidah than decided to cut her out of Jacob’s life because she wasn’t worthy. That was Sarah’s motivation, but Joyce has never really said anything about her, just how good Jacob and Sarah would be together (back when she was still living vicariously through that fantasy.
It seems to me that what Joyce is doing isn’t all that different than what “nice guys” do when they like a girl but don’t say anything: hang around them, be friends, and hope the girl sees how “good” they are for her.
The biggest difference I see between her behavior and that behavior is I can’t really see her freaking out if Jacob broke up with Raidah and then dated some other woman without considering Joyce.
But other than that, it seems pretty much the same behavior, and not something I’m used to hearing supported.
I don’t think it’s quite the same. Joyce seems to intend a bit more of active role than passively waiting to see how “good” they are.
That “bring it on” look between her and Raidah isn’t something I associate with the typical “Nice Guy” approach.
It’s not clear exactly how that’s going to translate into action.
Except she’s not saying anything to Jacob or even sharing that look with Jacob so it’s still counts as being “nice”.
That said, I don’t think she’ll react like those guys do if things don’t go her way, but that’s the only thing that strikes me as different.
To be fair, I’m a guy so I don’t have first hand experience with that behavior, so my understanding of the concept may be off.
On the other hand, there are a lot of comments saying Joyce is just being friends/friendly, which seems exactly how that behavior in guys is generally portrayed.
As I said, it’s not clear how that’s going to translate into action, but I’m pretty sure it will.
Likely not action against Raidah, but she’s not going to just wait around being friendly and hoping.
Probably another thing Raidah likes about him.
Both she and Sarah have a strong tendency towards being as toxic to themselves as possible, but at least with Sarah it’s tragic. There’s already too many people like Raidah (uppity peons) in all social classes of the world.
the more I think about it, the weirder the concept of “deserving” a specific person gets. like, Jacob deserves to be treated better than what either of them are doing right now, but… in a sense, *nobody* deserves Jacob, because Jacob is a person, because that sounds like it would mean he should date the person who “deserves” him regardless of his own feelings?
Jocelyne is the trans writer/blogger (Joyce knows her as “Joshua”). We have not met Jordan yet – Jocelyne once referred to him as being “too Jordan” to show up at Freshman Family Weekend.
My suspicion is that “Jordan” is the one who’s had the nerve to openly stand up to their parents and disavow the whole situation – and therefore is probably the healthiest.
How that look in terms of life trajectory, I don’t know. Could be anything from ex-evangelical White Dude Atheist to a scientist who accepts evolution to someone who spends his spare time volunteering with NARAL.
Jocelyne is actually the writer (though her family still knows her by her deadname), so she’s probably the “blogger,” since she has a writing website. Jonathan is the missionary. Jordan is the Mystery Boy.
Is “deadname” an accurate term if the name itself is still very much in active use? I mean, my deadname is toootally fuckin’ dead and has been for pretty much my entire adult life. (Actually I have two.) But it just seems like a term that doesn’t fit for Jocelyn’s shitty situation.
Personally I would probably default to calling it her birth name or something?
I think it’s fair to say her parents are deadnaming her. Jocelyn has really only demonstrated a tolerance for being called “Joshua” when her parents are around; she even gave Ethan the proper name for her blog. I suspect she’s tolerating being deadnamed by them to avoid becoming “a Jordan situation,” or worse, because she doesn’t want to lose Joyce the same way Jordan obviously has.
People very often have to deal with being deadnamed by their parents/around their parents LOOOOOONG after the name has been officially dead in their life.
Sorry, does it count as being deadnamed if you’re not out to the person? I’ve always read “deadnaming” as an active, passive aggressive swing at a trans person but maybe I’m wrong
I’d say the name itself is her deadname regardless but if she hasn’t yet come out to her parents yet I’d hesitate to call what they’re doing deadnaming. I’m pretty willing to accept the passive voice “before I came out I was being deadnamed constantly” but I feel like the active voice “they deadnamed me before I came out to them” attributes undue malice and kinda cheapens later, actual malice? My parents called me by the only name they knew before I came out — it’s after I came out that they started deadnaming me.
I (occasionally) refer to my legal name as my deadname in spite of its continued use because it is a name I am actively trying to make dead. The fact that I cannot yet make it dead in certain contexts does not negate the fact that it is The Name That Should Be Dead.
Which sounds better than deadname, honestly, sounds like a B list horror film. The Name That Wouldn’t Die! Night of the Living Deadname
See, now I have to ask: since I took part of my deadname and made it my current name, does that make said current name a zombiename? Because that sounds neat.
Yeah. Joyce might have decided she actually likes Jacob, but frankly, if she’s making a play for him, then she’s drastically changed her playbook. She didn’t act like this toward Joe before their one date, she didn’t act like this toward Ethan… (And I’m taking into account the way she behaved *before* finding out that Ethan is gay, and was trying to repress it.)
Other than occasionally giving him a flirty smile, (something she might not even be aware of, given that her mother clearly would never approve of her learning to flirt,) I have yet to see her treat him any differently than she does her other friends, other than being a bit more respectful of his personal space, which could possibly be attributed to the fact that she hasn’t known him as long.
Honestly, the habit she’s always had of bouncing after *everyone* like an overeager puppy, just tells me that she really was badly in need of a chance to make new friends. And frankly, if this *is* flirting, it’s a vast improvement on the way Walkyverse Joyce went about it. (The secondhand embarrassment, it was horrible…)
Yup, agreed. Being a friend where some interactions can be read as flirting is not the same thing as making an open play for someone. For contrast: think about Malaya picking up Joe. THAT is making a play for someone. This is friendly flirting.
That would be a reasonable assumption if we didn’t know her intent, which we very much do. (seen in this strip), and while different from Malaya’s (incredibly direct) approach, Joyce is still making a play on Jacob, albeit in a passive, more subtle, (arguably less effective), and long-game sort of way
Seriously, anything less than “Hey wanna fuck?” doesn’t count as making a play for someone?
Joyce is being subtle. That doesn’t mean the intent isn’t there.
Arguably, it’s more effective – since Jacob is attached, he’d reject any direct approach out of hand and likely cut off further contact.
There’s a difference between ‘making a play for’ and ‘getting into position’, though. Joyce is doing the latter. She believes that Raidah is a toxic individual, and that Jacob, being ‘good’ will eventually realize this and break it off on his own–at which point, she wants to be the one ready to help him move on.
It’s not honest, which is unfortunate and arguably criticism-worthy, but she’s not actively sabotaging the relationship–note that we’ve never seen her down-talk Raidah, directly or indirectly, to Jacob.
As I said above, I don’t agree with that being the motivation.
She is not actively sabotaging the relationship. She in fact pretty much completely ignores Raidah’s existence when she isn’t right there. Her approach seems to be the generally more effective one of building an emotional romantic style connection between her and Jacob.
Because she’s trying to manipulate Jacob away from any potential interest, not actively and visually cause drama. (Not to say she’s anti-drama, I don’t know, but I don’t think she wants to be seen caring, or feeling threatened, or letting it be anything but beneath her.)
Agreed. I’ve defended Raidah before because we’d only seen her through Sarah’s eyes or in situations where her worst was brought out. I wanted to give her a chance to become more well rounded and see what she was like, but what we’ve seen since hasn’t inspired confidence.
I mean we’re in yet another situation where Raidah is opposite someone she has pretty understandable reason to be unpleasant to aka a girl who is trying to seduce her boyfriend.
That’s actually what I find interesting about this arc.
I like Joyce.
I like Jacob.
I like the idea of Joyce and Jacob together.
I don’t like Raidah.
I really dislike Raidah’s tactics here.
Joyce is completely in the wrong and Raidah is more justified – though Joyce’s methods are still better than Raidah’s.
I find it a very neat subversion of a lot of the usual romcom nonsense.
I don’t care if Raidah loses Jacob.
I don’t think Joyce is doing the right thing trying to break them up. I don’t want her rewarded for doing something I think is lousy. She needs to learn a lesson about boundaries and her rom-com based understanding of relationships. Winning Jacob this way wouldn’t be good for her development.
Best case here, as far as I’m concerned is this blowing up in everyone’s face and Jacob ditching them all – Joyce for messing with his relationship and Raidah for showing her true colors in response. Except then we see less of Jacob.
It’s a complex situation, which I like. Thing I like least about it is that I suspect it’s going to kill Joyce/Jacob and I do like them together.
I care because I don’t think doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason is ok simply because the person you’re trying to mess over is a jerk.
Also, I’m against people trying to break up relationships, generally speaking. I will say I’m a little weird about that, tho because I think I view cheating as better than trying to sabotage a relationship. I think it’s a matter of who I place the blame on in that circumstance. But that’s neither here nor there.
I also don’t like the deceitfulness of it (again, weird considering I would feel better about cheating than sabotage). I’d rather Joyce tell him she has a thing for him and let him chose to hang out as friends.
I’m almost disappointed by how transparent she’s being. Raidah was one of the more nuanced ‘villians’ (mostly because Sarah isn’t exactly a shining example of heroism either).
I would agree with that, but I would also say that she is someone who in most situations conceals her percussion-instrument personality behind the forms of earnest politeness, to the extent that people who are not directly on the receiving end of her attacks think of her as nice and polite and courteous, and can’t comprehend why anyone would see her in any other light.
I thiiink by the sliding timescale it technically did happen during the current administration?
And, well, I do think it’s an important accomplishment! Harrison sounds like a cool guy going off this. But, well… I admit I don’t know a lot about how this kind of legal action gets done, but it really sounds to me like Raidah is overselling his accomplishment. Jacob’s hyping him pretty hard, too…
Depends on the state laws, I think; over here where I live, the Republican-controlled state congress offered to repeal their infamous “bathroom bill” (which also forbade cities in the state from passing anti-discrimination legislation) if the cities that had passed anti-discrimination legislation prior to the bill repealed theirs first, IIRC – then when the cities in question did so, the state congress went back on their word and kept their bill on the books. The state Supreme Court is Republican-controlled as well last I checked, so if I’m not mistaken in my state’s case, an attempt to remove the bill through litigation might need to be fought all the way up to the federal-level Supreme Court.
Is it ‘State Congress’?
I thought congress only referred to the national one (as it’s a congress of the states), and the state legislatures had different names?
Basically any legal action’s a collaborative process. Even if there’s only one lawyer, there’s probably a paralegal too. Harrison could have been anyone from the one giving oral arguments to someone working with the clients to doing research to writing the motions the judge sees. All of which are important, and he could have been in any of those roles in any combination.
It’s a lot more impressive in conservative (or conservative leaning) areas. I believe Indiana is generally more conservative, if Willis hasn’t steered me wrong?
And Pence caused another spate of HIV infection because funding programs to cut down on needle sharing wouldn’t mean the gay druggies were being properly punished or something. (Goes to scrub previous sentence from soul)
I know they voted for Obama in one of his elections and that at least one swing district is in the state so I’m not sure about it in general. I defer to anyone else’s expertise.
I did just start off with a silly joke, but I -also- defer to everyone else’s expertise! So, thank you all for being so informative, I appreciate it a lot!
State as a whole is red. But even the reddest states are more purple than red or blue, once you get down to the county level, especially if you look at maps that are morphed to account for population rather than land:
There’s a graphic a bit before the halfway point that really shows why ‘red vs. blue’ is a horrible metric. If Harrison’s district includes Northwest Indiana, or Indianapolis, for instance, it’s much easier for him to take a progressive stance.
‘Red’ being permanently associated with the Republicans is a relatively recent thing, only going back to the 2000 elections, where the whole rigamarole kept the coloured maps on screens a lot longer than they would have been. Prior to that, the colours flipped with each election.
FYI this actually happened in real life, the 7th Circuit ruled that transgender students can’t be discriminated against. The 2nd Circuit ruled the other way however, so the ruling is only valid in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin until the Supreme Court resolves the split.
If that’s Hively vs Ivy Tech, I don’t think it actually did. It was a landmark employment case, but as far as I can tell it only applies to sexual orientation, not transgender discrimination.
If you’re thinking of something else, I’d like to know.
Yup, she’s probably not exactly head of John’s fanclub still, but I’m not expecting she’d want to get into that right now. Ironically, that’d actually probably score points with Jacob, hearing about her laying into him.
Raidah’s going into law, right? With her behavior and the way she fawns over Harrison, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she’s just using Jacob as a stepping stone to future business connections.
Harrison is likely significantly older – through law school and playing a significant role in important cases. Not too likely to be interested in a college sophomore. Unless he’s a creep, of course.
Also, what is it with Raidah’s weird insistence on bringing up how amazing Jacob’s brother is? This is the second time she’s done it unprompted. If she’s so enthralled with Harrison why doesn’t she go hit on him?
Living up to Harrison the knight in shining armor seems to be the thing Jacob is invested in. Bringing him up now is defenitly a move to guilt-trip Jacob in some way. Either about spending time with people with less lofty ambitions, or about shallow activities like eating out with a group of people who cannot further his career, or something.
Asking Joyce about her siblings supplies more munition that Raidah could have though.
I wonder if Jordan is in jail,or studying biology or what?
Yeah, she invited Joyce to come to her mosque on Friday after Joyce and Jacob came back from the latter’s church – cue Joyce immediately backpedaling about 10 feet away from the couple.
With what I know of the Muslim community here in the Midwest, I’d be surprised if many of them act nearly as judgmental as she has been shown to. Mind you that is based on my own subjective experiences and a very limited sample size of individuals (a few dozen or so, including a couple imams I’ve spoken with before).
Also, her acceptance of Dana’s habits plausibly speaks volumes regarding how much piety she may approach her religion from, much more so than the frequency with which she may attend mosque, if she also partook. Using intoxicating or mind altering substances is seen as haram, though I’ve seen some debate as to whether medicinal use, such as medical marijuana used purely as prescribed by a doctor, fall under mukruh instead.
I knew a few people at school who wouldn’t touch alcohol because it was forbidden, but were fine smoking pot. I expect that partly because illegality rendered debates pointless seeming at the time.
Is a Christian who doesn’t believe in angels less religious than one who does?
More relevantly is a Christian who mocks the kind of Christian who’s really into literal angels flying around affecting daily life less religious than other Christians? Which is more I suspect what she meant.
I’d say so. You can believe in an all knowing, all powerful being who created the universe, but you can’t belive in that being having helpers? I’d consider that less religious. And if you don’t believe in that all powerful being, then you’re definitely less religious.
But, again, that depends on how important the belief in those beings being literally existing is to the religion.
For all I know, she might belong to a group of Muslims who don’t believe in angels, in which case she’s fine in that regard.
But if they do believe, then she’s definitely less religious than those who profess to believe in them. At least in regards to that particular version.
Though IIRC she didn’t actually say she didn’t believe in angels, she mocked Joyce’s belief in angels. Which is subtly different.
I mean, angels show up in the Bible, in the Old Testament (or the Torah) and thus are in the founding texts for Christianity, Judaism and Islam. That doesn’t mean that they’re always understood the same way.
I read that scoffing not as “there are no angels”, but “she’s one of those who take it all literally and think everyone has a guardian angel and whatever other nonsense goes along with it.”
You don’t say “she’s a little girl who believes ghosts exists” if you also believe in ghosts.
The whole point of the statement is to contrast her to Joyce, and the only thing said is that Joyce believes in angels. Therefore, the contrast is Raidah does not believe in angels.
Any subtlety and nuance you see there is in your own head as there’s not enough given in the statement to assume it.
That said, that doesn’t mean you’re wrong. Raidah is talking to people who know her so the nuance might not need to be spoken out loud to them. But as an audience who wouldn’t know that, the simplest solution is the most likely one: that she doesn’t believe.
“You can believe in an all knowing, all powerful being who created the universe, but you can’t believe in that being having helpers? I’d consider that less religious.”
It’s not necessarily a case of “I can believe in God okay, but angels are too much to accept.” Remember that these things are *factual* in the minds of the people who believe them. There’s nothing irreligious in the position, “Could angels conceivably exist? Yes. Do they in fact exist? No.”
Mind you, there’s 28 million Christians in India. I had to deal with all sorts of people of the Joyce-esque bent who are CONFUSED when they find out it’s one of the largest Christian communities in the world.
I’m thinking specifically about abuses missionaries have pulled in South Asia. Since I’m fairly sure Raidah’s descended from there, I can see her not being super enthused.
Yeah, christian missionaries have a strong reputation on the international scene for being complete monsters with the people they are proselytizing to.
Even the ones doing more humanitarian things like building schools or hospitals sometimes have conditions (like you have to convert, go to a service, listen to them proselytize, etc.) or try to convert people on the side.
Not all religious denominations proselytize in the same way (or even at all for that manner, especially these days) – most Christian missionaries these days either come from, are one step removed from, or are connected to various US Christian organizations, which can sometimes be a little…”special”…in the beliefs they export.
Take it from someone who was born and raised overseas to one such family.
Well, if she’s specifically calling out Joyce’s-missionary-brother-with-a-cool-car-that-he-got-by-spending-church-tithings-received-from-the-poor, or people like him, then yeah I feel like Raidah’s mosque – as a member of which Raidah feels free to express sentiments in favor of trans people – is probably better than Joyce’s church, whose members recoiled at the idea of associating with someone they had known for years, once that someone turned out to be a lesbian.
But Raidah has absolutely no idea what kind of missionary work John does or how he got the car. Yes, he is a gross person and deserves to be judged, but she doesn’t know that. She doesn’t know anything about Joyce’s family, she’s just doing everything she can to try and make them sound bad to Jacob.
Raidah surely knows from Jacob that Joyce is a fundagelical. She probably knows exactly what kind of missionary* he is, and the fancy car probably confirmed her suspicions.
*in any event, it’s not like there are that many kinds of missionaries and they all have a lot in common.
Being angry about the behavior of fundagelical missionaries overseas is actually a pretty reasonable reaction, especially if you hail from a part of the world they’ve preyed on.
If you mean it’s stupid because she’s somehow insulting christianity in front of Jacob, she’s safe there. As an Episcopalian, he cannot think fundagelicals make christianity look good.
Plus, “apple doesn’t fall far from the tree”. We know Joyce has changed a lot of her viewpoints from her upbringing. Raidah does not – she might well think Joyce still subscribes to many, if not most, of her church’s less-than-savory views.
That’s not near the same scale of equivalency as Raidah hypothetically judging Joyce here for the beliefs of her church, it would probably be significantly closer to judging Raidah for the doctrine from her mosque.
I don’t follow you? You mean if she’s angry about missionaries, why take that out on Joyce? Because Joyce is part of the group and apparently believes the same shit as the missionaries?
But i’m not sure that’s what Raidah is doing: i think she’s either expressing her own opinion of missionaries (which i agree with, despite her being shitty) or she’s trying to bait Joyce into revealing to Jacob just how batshit and nasty Joyce’s religion is, and by association, Joyce herself.
I doubt it wil work because Jacob already knows she has a lot of batshit notions and he knows she’s shed a number of them, and that under it all Joyce is kind.
Unlike Raidah who is not covering herself in glory here.
It’s also probably the same thought process Roz went through in the Infamous Gender Studies Bongo Blowout. Even if Raidah knows Joyce is changing, she doesn’t know how much and does know that for a very long time, Joyce was all-in on every harmful policy her church held. And I don’t blame Raidah for being wary about someone who’s at most six weeks removed from that.
Like wasn’t her last interaction with Joyce her literally bolting across the room to get away from her when she learned she was Muslim. That hardly inspires confidence that one isn’t a bigot.
@Emily: Raidah did imply that, but I think the teleporting away was more due to her being Jacob’s girlfriend. She jumps back and blushes before the mosque is even mentioned. Then she just keeps running away.
I think it’s very likely Radiah’s reaction is that she assumes being missionary is not something which made her brother WEALTHY. So, if she ever met Jordon, her respect would go up/
Then again, that’s my view of the tone of the conversation.
I’m sorry, but I strongly disagree. I’m not areligious, but to me, the idea that a religious group literally pays people to proselytise is extremely distasteful to me- especially when that religious group is such a majority with so much power already. There’s a world of difference between “this person has a faith” and “this person actively tries to convert others to their faith FOR A LIVING”. The two are not comparable imo.
Jordan is a crappy missionary. There’s also missionary works which did massive humanitarian relief efforts–including ones which Westerners condemned because with no resources, they weren’t 1st World hospital levels.
Mind you, I do Jordan props that he isn’t a bigot and married locally. That’s the only props I give him.
She seemed nuetral-ish until the car was mentioned.
I think she would be ‘okay’ with a missionary, but the cool car makes it seem like he helps a for-profit church. Which might explain her judgemental answer.
Read literally, the missionary with a cool car gets a better response than before the car is mentioned. Which could fit with her general classist approach.
Based on her facial expressions (which I read as “insincerely kind”), I read that line as patronizing. I think she thinks Joyce is incredibly immature and that it is showing in how she speaks about her family (and her professional goals in the previous strip).
And it is a kind of immature thing to point out. A missionary who drives a nice car. Mature people would not care about the car and pointing it out was a little silly (and I suppose could also give negative implications about the type of missionary her brother is, as others have already hashed out).
I don’t think Raidah cares at all about the car, as her family is rich.
It’s pretty bad that Raidah just talked right over Jacob when Dorothy specifically asked to hear from him for a change. I don’t hate her or anything, but that’s not a great way to treat your SO. Unless Jacob likes it that he doesn’t have to engage in conversations himself or something, which I don’t think is true.
Been looking through the comments just to see if anyone else picked up on that. This is actually my least favourite thing about Raidah in this strip. If your SO is asked a question, LET THEM ANSWER IT.
They go back and forth. It’s a conversation. She doesn’t seem to directly interrupt him.
She’s definitely directing the conversation, but it’s probably subtle enough he’s not likely to be much bothered by it.
I’m loving Joyce here. She’s innocent and oblivious, and a little weird, and it’s adorable. A lot of guys find that appealing, maybe Jacob is one of them. She’s definitely the polar opposite of Raidah, who is conniving and manipulative, and probably doesn’t deserve someone as nice as Jacob. I’m sure she’ll get what’s coming to her eventually.
……..she might be ACTING innocent and oblivious, but she’s neither. She knows exactly what Raidah’s doing, and knows that Raidah knows exactly what she’s doing.
Just because a smash-and-grab burglar and a cat-burglar aren’t on the same level doesn’t mean that the smash-and-grab-er is innocent or oblivious.
Joyce is in the wrong here. It doesn’t matter what Raidah does, she can be in the wrong too, but the moment that Joyce went after Jacob in an attempt to break up a (then) seemingly healthy and happy relationship, she crossed the line.
From Joyce’s perspective there’s still nothing to give her an impression that the relationship isn’t healthy. Jacob has talked about how great they are together and that’s it. Anything more is what we the audience has seen, which shouldn’t affect Joyce’s behaviour because she doesn’t know it.
That’s not what OP meant, though. She is innocent in her beliefs of how much money is a lot of money, how the jobs of her brothers are socially perceived (especially “blogger”, writer alone has some people sneering), and she is oblivious to Raidah’s condescending tone and passive-agressive attempts to make her look bad.
Or at least apparently oblivious.
The staredown doesn’t necessarily mean that Joyce realizes that raidah is being purposefully rude.
I personally think Joyce knows and is taking it with a grain of salt, but Joyce isn’t exactly the most aware of people’s intentions, usually
I don’t think the staredown meant anything about “purposefully rude”. The staredown was an acknowledgement that Joyce was out to win Jacob and that Raidah had come to defend her prior claim. And that they both knew what the other was doing.
“purposefully rude” is just a tactic in the romantic battle.
Innocent and oblivious? You mean how shes going after Jacob knowing full well hes got a girlfriend, who just happens to be sitting across from her
As for conniving and manipulative, like trying to break up Jacob and Raidah for Sarah or trying to break up Jacob and Raidah for herself
Shes been told in no uncertain terms, by Joe, this a bad idea and Dorothy whose only just been dragged into the middle of this, can see this a bad idea
Someones getting hurt and I hope its Joyce because as much as I like Joyce her behaviour has been pretty shitty and she does not deserve anything good to come out of this
“Going after” Jacob? Has she made a pass at him, propositioned him? She’s literally done nothing so far. Her ultimate intent, which we don’t actually know, is irrelevant.
Especially since earlier in the day on which that strip is set, Joe had out-and-out told Joyce that Sarah was hoping for Joyce to get with Jacob, which Joyce interpreted to mean that Joe thought that she had a chance with Jacob.
I still maintain that friendly flirting while hoping things go in a specific direction is not the same thing as making a pass at someone, because Joyce is also legitimately his friend, and not only for nefarious purposes.
I don’t think Jacob’s oblivious any more. Not entirely. His reaction to her babbling after the gym injury definitely (imo) showed him picking up on her feelings and I feel like the way he was looking at her a few strips back, when she went up to the bar, implied (to me) that yeah, he’s somewhat aware of her feelings- although still oblivious to her intent.
I think it’s more that he’s being affected by her flirting and responding to it, while still being oblivious to what’s going on.
He called in Raidah while going to lunch with Joyce and we saw his thought bubble of pizza while they were having their little glare match.
Man, either Jacob is being dense as a brick fruitcake or he’s preternaturally unflappable. Raidah turned a “let’s talk about you” to “let’s talk about your brother, who’s better than you” without even hiding it.
Honestly? I think he’s probably kind of used to women doing this around him, even if he’s not cognizant of it. People stop just short of turning into a cartoon wolf and going “AWOOOGAH!” on meeting him on a routine basis.
Guys, especially non-assholier-than-thou guys, tend to avoid assuming that women being outwardly friendly to them have any sexual or romantic interest in them. Maybe it’s an over-correction because we know how fucking vile people who assume that shit about anyone that gives them a smile can be, but I wager that’s Jacob’s mindset here.
I mean it could just be that Jacob’s brother is someone really important to him who he looks up to and actually does enjoy talking about. Not everyone feels inferior to and jealous of their more successful siblings.
So, since there is some talking about Jocelyn going on…
Say you are Trans and your parents love and support.
Would you ask them for a new name? With as much love and care as went I to the other one? Or would you choose it yourself, thus proving the independence?
Just speaking for myself as a trans person, the amount of trans people I know who would trust their parents with the new name is ….. pretty low. Mostly because it’s so rare to have that level of love and support, but even when you do, it often comes with a kind of well meaning but clumsy understanding.
As a parent, I would have a really hard time giving a teenager a name the way I do a child, but I could absolutely contribute to the process.
“If we had known your real gender when you were a baby we would probably have named you X.” (Most expecting parents have brainstormed a few alternative names)
“These are some names I like/thinks suits you/runs in the family. Do you like any of them?”
I AM trans, so it’s not a hypothetical for me. I didn’t, I was more interested in having a name I liked this round than involving them (especially since that’s often done to placate).
Check out Jackson Bird on YouTube! He’s trans and he did ask his mom for help when he was choosing his name. It’s very interesting to hear him talk about it
I ended up picking a name for myself, but I asked my mom for a lot of input during the process. Her view was pretty much exactly what Bagge said above- if it were up to her she would’ve gone with something she and my dad were planning if I’d been born female, and she told me all of those names that she could remember.
But she also wanted me to pick a name for myself at least as much as I wanted to.
For me, the biggest part of picking a new name was trying to come up with something that would feel as special and “me” as the name I’d been going by for my whole life up until that point.
Not trans, but as a parent, I would be fine with whichever route my kid chose. If they wanted my help deciding on a new name, I’d feel honored to be involved, but I also would want them to do what makes them most comfortable and choose a name that they identify with.
I’d presume, from my own experiences, most people in that situation would be a bit of A and a bit of B. I’ve known several trans people that have simply gone the route of closely related names (Patricia becoming Patrick for example). I’ve also know several that, already knowing other names that were considered, chose one of those in spite of being not on good terms with their parents because of transitioning with the hope they could appreciate the gesture should fences ever be mended.
Trans with shitty parents here- although I didn’t realise how shitty my parents were at the time, I didn’t include them at all in the decision. In fact I chose a name that my mother said she hated, and my reaction was “welp, tough.”
But even if the relationship was better… having a new name is, for a lot of trans folk, hugely symbolic and important. It’s part of taking control of who you are, your identity and the way you’re perceived. Taking a new name is immensely empowering. So I doubt many- if any- would 100% leave it up to their parents even with the best relationship. As others have said though, yeah, I can totally see it being a discussion.
I have never known anyone to let their parents choose their new name. BUT i’m changing my legal name to The Boy Name My Parents Would Have Picked so I mean. I’m sure some people would or have. It’s just…definitely not the standard.
Choosing your own name is less an issue of “proving independence” tho and more an issue of. Being a grown person with like, life experience and self-interest and shit and therefore being able to pick something comfortable, as opposed to being a baby that can’t make decisions and has to be referred to as something by the people who will be raising you for the next n years.
I’m not trans, but when I was a teen I went through a long period of time where I identified as genderfluid. I played around a lot with my name as a result. My parents have always been supportive but confused, and my mom’s only hangup is that she felt the names she gave me and my sibling who IS genderqueer were special and significant to her because of the thought and love she put into choosing them. I can’t speak for my sibling on how much this impacted choosing names, but we both go by names at least vaguely derived from our birth names. For me thats a least somewhat out of respect for her and the genuine attachment she had to my birthname. My sibling uses their middle name (my parents gave us both very gender neutral middle names for some reason), but I have a feeling that once they move out of the house they’ll find a name that they feel fits them more, unrelated to birth name. I think they’re only going by that name out of love for our mom? Which isn’t the sole reason they should be going by that name.
Yeah, from the perspective of a parent who would have zero issue with my kid being trans, I think it can be tricky for even the most tolerant parents to be fully comfortable with their kid changing their name.
For me I’d have no issue with them changing their gender, and would respect their wish to change their name, but when you have a kid you associate whatever name you chose with them, and that automatically makes it special. It’s the whole, “They’ll always be that newborn baby to me” emotional deal parents (or at least many/most parents) feel towards their kid. It’d be just as tricky for me whether my kid were trans or not.
I think choosing a similar name (like a kid named Charlie going with Charlotte, or Samantha becoming Sam, etc.) makes it a bit easier for the parents because then the new name still has attachment to all those childhood memories.
But I also understand why some trans people prefer going with a very different name, and I’d learn to deal if that’s the direction my kid decided to go. Their comfort with their life/identity is more important than my attachment to a name.
I think an ideal world for me as a parent would be if we didn’t automatically gender names so if my kid ended up being trans, they could still go by their birth name and have it be a non-issue, but sadly that is not the world we live in yet I guess.
Crediting Dotty with avoiding confrontation is like thanking water for being wet.
Her backbone has the firmness of a waterbed. She just dumped a guy for a few extra hours of study time. She’s only still sitting there because she doesn’t want Joyce to have to get up to let her out.
But this water is so extraordinarily wet I think it merits mention.
Also, it’s not that she tries to avoid confrontation in general – she deliberately puts herself in harms way to try to pull JOYCE out from the confrontation. That’s a big difference (not that Joyce in any shape or form WANTS out of the confrontation, but that’s another thing altogether).
75% of Dorothy’s entire shtick is avoiding confrontation, something she seems to have picked up from her mother (at least) – it’s why she went to University hoping Danny would forget about her instead of just breaking up with him. One of the very few times she showed a spine was when she made Walky write a thank you note to his parents, because that was the *polite* thing to do.
It’s (part of) why she has no chance to be president, and it’s why she should have no chance in politics. The US already has its share of spineless, non-confrontational, politeness-concerned uselessness in politics – they’re called “every high-profile Democrat that isn’t Maxine Waters.”
But then the 25 remaining percent is taking responsibility and doing the right thing, such as when she finally broke up with Danny, or when she recognised how she’s stringing Wally along.
The result is both endearing and admirable, at lest for me.
15%, tops. The other 10% is scheduling/listing stuff. ;p
She only broke up with Danny because he basically cornered her, and she didn’t break up with Walky because she was stringing him along, she broke up with him because she thought she’d be better off turning relationship-time into study-time.
She can be both endearing and admirable, and certainly one of the more upstanding characters in the comic, but that still doesn’t exclude the fact that she’d make for a terrible politician for a high-profile position (as opposed to, say, an advisory or research position for someone in said position).
Avoiding confrontation is only a bad thing when the confrontation is necessary.
If you’re not actively trying to avoid confrontations that accomplish nothing and are likely to just end in a screaming match and damaged relationships, then you’re a shitty person, and would be an even worse leader.
For fuck’s sake, our current fucking president is a perfect example of why avoiding confrontation is a valuable skill for a leader. Every god damn day he’s starting some completely pointless fight where the best case result is that he ends up wasting time complaining about some celebrity instead of finding new ways to fuck up the economy and/or be cruel to women and minorities.
The idiotic fucking “AVOIDING CONFRONTATION MEANS YOU’RE WEAK” mentality is why that orange fuck is starting trade wars, alienating our allies, and putting babies in god damn prison camps
Dorothy isn’t fucking spineless, she just (1) has the ability to recognize when a fight or argument isn’t worth it, and (2) would prefer to be gentle or at least civil when confronting someone is actually necessary.
Don’t you fucking dare tell me we wouldn’t be better off with a president who had those qualities.
I mostly agree with this but I also think it depends on the stakes of what’s going on. Low stakes things can merit low stakes confrontation (which can be as simple as ‘dude, c’mon, don’t be like that’) whereas actual high stakes stuff definitely requires a ‘dude, seriously, DO NOT be like that’.
Oh how’d I know the most full throated apologist for Dorothy’s personality would be you, Fart Captor.
Look, person, a president needs to be capable of standing up for themselves and their interests. Negotiation and compromise is only possible when you have a position. Dorothy doesn’t have a position. She barely has a belief system. She’s the least self-actualized person in a strip that has people like Danny and Jacob.
I’ll fucking dare tell you what I want to, and that’s that a President who can’t fight will get devoured by the sharks that can. And that’s why Obama now watches Donald Trump take his whole legacy apart.
Also, wtf are you talking about? “Dorothy doesn’t have a position”? On what exactly? We know more about her political beliefs than any character in the strip except maybe Roz. Or is “barely having a belief system” a shot at her being an atheist? (and if so, fuck you)
Dorothy doesn’t fucking need apologists. Her biggest flaw right now is that she needs a work/life balance that will let her pursue her ambitions without burning herself out. Dorothy might not be terribly aggressive, but she’s shown she’s able to stand her ground when she needs to.
We have yet to see her face a serious situation where she just ran away or failed to act. She’s allowed to prioritize her long term goals over sex and romance. The fact that you see that as a lack of backbone says a lot about how you view women with ambition (and the idea that relationships are something women can opt out of for whatever the fuck reason they want, not some kind of contractual obligation which can only be terminated without penalty under a limited set of conditions)
I’ve never seen someone *intentionally* fall for the rope-a-dope-in fact, engineer their own rope-a-doping-with such vigor, such determination, such bloody-mindedness.
Raidah-she’s going on the attack, in an incredibly conspicuous and obvious sort of way. Joyce is not only completely unfazed by any of her peacocking, she’s managing to reply in a way that increasingly boosts her profile and provokes Raidah into doubling down in an increasingly self destructive cycle.
Up until last strip I would have thought Joyce was just innocent, but I don’t think so any longer. I think she knows exactly what Raidah is doing, and her own lack of reaction is a measured, deliberate counter move.
Joyce has matured THAT much. She is now that sure of herself, that confident and that prepared to play Raidah’s bullshit alpha bongo game.
Joyce has matured into a very scary young lady quickly – I think both Sarah and Dorothy will become very nervous about this development very soon.
Nah, this is a game a lot of girls in heavily conservative religious places learn WELL. Passive aggressive sparring matches are a THING from what I’ve heard. So Raidah taking passive aggressive shots trying to get her to snap back? She can just as passive aggressively, smugly NOT react and play innocent.
Can speak to it, yes. I am trans but was raised as a girl in a heavily conservative space.
When you’re not allowed to openly express hurt, anger, disgust, sadness or any other negative emotion, those emotions don’t go away. You just find a socially acceptable way to get your message across. Passive aggression is big. My mother is terrible for it – rather than telling you she thinks you’re wrong, she’ll just repeat the same question ad nauseum until your answer changes, and if you get annoyed with her for it, she’ll pretend she was just making sure, for example.
In those situations, healthy means of conflict resolution (standing up for yourself, calling out someone treating you badly, learning to use the word no, etc) are penalized heavily. I was always the “difficult” one because my autism made me too direct and unable to pick up on passive aggression at the time.
Raidah is less transparent about it than my mother. But suffice to say passive-aggressive needling is something I fully expect Joyce is well-versed in.
Afterthought: Look always for the weaponization of compliments. I fully expect Joyce’s parents are going to start in on that when she begins to fall out more with them – “You were always so responsible” – responsible here means compliant – “what happened?” or “You’ve always been the good one.” or whatever. The purpose of weaponized compliments is to serve the purpose of the carrot – it’s like love-bombing only the string is more visibly attached. The message sent is clear: You can get praise and acceptance if you return to the way you were.
I wouldn’t even really call her more mature or confident. She’s always been confident and proud of herself – she’s just got a new set of beliefs to be confident in. And well….I’d hardly call Joyce mature, really. She’s very childish still. But the passive aggressive arena isn’t really the place for that so.
But if the point isn’t to faze Joyce, but to highlight some things to Jacob?
She might be doing a little better.
Now, if she’s really misread Jacob’s ambitions then this will completely backfire, but if she hasn’t then she’s nicely set up Joyce as a sweet naive kid who isn’t going anywhere, like the rest of her family. Nothing wrong with her, but not a match for an ambitious lawyer-to-be like Jacob.
I think that’s EXACTLY where she’s going with this.
And honestly, it might work. Jacob doesn’t judge Joyce’s goals for herself – but he DOES want the big, prestigious career. The ‘glamourous’ life, as Raidah oh so condescendingly put it. He wants the career to be on par with Harrison, who he idolizes so much, and make his family proud. Joyce’s desired quiet family life with the lowing paying low prestige job isn’t a bad thing, but it’s not what Jacob wants. Someone who’s supportive of him and in an equally prestigious job? Yeah, that sounds more like Jacob’s speed. It’s why Raidah is the perfect checklist girlfriend for him.
Exactly. And remember that Jacob has no idea that Raidah’s doing this intentionally and since she’s his girlfriend, he’s likely interpreting what she’s saying pretty generously.
Plus I’m getting the impression he’s pretty oblivious to subtext, so …
Can YOU imagine living up to that, Raidah? Yesterday I thought, “Yeah, that’s kinda mean,” but today she actually made me cringe.
Also, I’m betting that Jordan is either a porn star or is involved with gangs/drugs. Considering the level of sexual repression in the Brown family, it’s likely the former.
My bets are porn, gay porn, enthusiast of another religion (anywhere from ‘obnoxiously zealous former Christian White Dude atheist’ to Mormon are options here), and for an outside bet, webcomic artist. (Pornlord optional.)
Given that we know the Browns have gone through a number of churches over the years trying to find the right one “wrong brand of Christian” seems a pretty likely option. Which means a range of possibilities from “Too liberal/borderline not even Christian in the view of his parents” to “Too conservative even for the Browns.”
Given the level of conservative Joyce’s parents are, there’s a rather wide range of options for what Jordan could be. High school science teacher at a secular school? Athiest blogger? Planned Parenthood doctor? Avenue Q puppeteer?
I was thinking that too. Maybe he is a health teacher who covers sex ed, a legal advocate for LGBTQ+ people, a counselor who helps teenage runaways, including pregnant teenage women…basically *anything* of which Joyce’s parents wouldn’t approve. He doesn’t necessarily have to be a porn star or a druggie.
I would actually love to see Jordan the Secular Puppeteer. (Hell, Disney Muppets are probably too vulgar for the Browns. Sesame Street could be too secular for them.)
Nah, Hank still considers him a good kid. If Hank turned him out, I don’t think he’d say that. Mama Brown also says it happened by them not ‘squeezing hard enough’ so its something they consider a disciplinary failure on their end.
My guess is they didn’t cut him off – Jordan had enough of THEM.
While I think neither Joyce nor Raidah come off well in this situation AT ALL, I’ve got a fair amount of sympathy for Joyce in this strip because I have had many people belittle me exactly the way Raidah is belitting Joyce.
(I’m assuming that Raidah is being sarcastic, not honestly interested here – the visual cues, text, and bold-faced words seem to suggest snarkniess.)
Meanwhile, Joyce thinks she’s bragging about her family (and maybe showing off a little), but Raidah is being completely disdainful and trying to make it clear to everyone how “pathetic” Joyce and her life is.
Note: I may be over-personalizing because this has happened to me so often. Some sample exchanges from my life:
Snarky person: How did you do on the test?
Me: I got a B+
Snarky person: Oh. Well, that’s a (pause) *good* grade…
Snarky person: Where are you going to college? I’m going to Harvard.
Me: I’m going to Boston University.
Snarky person: WOW, BU. I’ve heard they have some decent departments there. I actually picked them as my safety school.
Me: I love the dress you’re wearing tonight.
Snarky person: Thanks so much. Yours is nice too. It’s SO unique and unusual. I mean, it’s not really my style, but it’s very…nice.
Me: (Giving my perspective on an assigned reading in class)
Snarky person: Well, while that’s *interesting,* in the past twenty years literary criticism has really advanced and moved past simplistic dated interpretations.
(I think I need chocolate and pictures of baby goats now.) 🙁
Ew, people. (Though I could see me saying something like the dress one sincerely, tone is everything and there’s a world of difference between that and ‘I couldn’t pull that off but you look great in it!’ or similar sentiments.)
Yeah – tone doesn’t always come through in text. That’s why I said it’s possible Raidah is being sincere. However, I really doubt it, especially given Willis’ visuals.
Trust me, the person who said this to me was NOT saying “I couldn’t pull that off but you can.” I have said some version of that statement to friends and family members and honestly meant it. Apply snark filter +10 to each of the Snarky People above. 😛
I think that kind of meanness is the worst, because it’s so hard to counter (at least for me). If someone flat-out tells me, “I think you’re too stupid to be in this class and I don’t like you,” that is hurtful, but at least I can flat-out tell them to fuck off. If they’re being snarky and smarmy, it’s still hurtful, but I am going to look crazy if I get angry. (“What’s wrong with you? I was just pointing out something to *help* you understand the reading…”)
As a side-note, now that I’m kind-of grown up and working in my chosen field, I can say that there is less of this kind of snarkiness. But it’s still there and is more insidious and harder to counter. Poot.
I know the feeling. My personal experience is along the lines of this:
Snide: Oh you ran out of money to finish your degree at that private university and you didn’t want to take a loan? That’s ok, plenty of people get degrees from ‘community colleges for work’.
I teach at a community college and I will put my students and the quality of education they receive up against any private university, any day.
In fact, I think that in many cases you can get a *better* education at a community college or public 4-year school. A lot of times the professors choose those schools because they are really committed to education and helping everyone receive a quality education, whether they are wealthy or not (that is the reason why I teach where I do). Professors at “fancy” schools may want the “prestige” that goes along with saying they teach there and don’t really care much about the students or education in general. (I went to graduate school with some of those people.)
Also, the student experience may be better at a 2-year school because, overall, most students *want* to be there. They may be paying their own way, or looking to advance in their careers, or (like you) may not want to go into the massive debt that comes along with most private university degrees in the U.S. They are overall not privileged, entitled kids whose parents are paying their way and who sleep or party through class because it’s “only daddy’s money, anyway.” *snark* A classroom full of engaged, committed students is, IMHO, a much better learning atmosphere than a classroom full of students who don’t care or, worse, feel they have the right to tell the teacher how to run the class or what grades to give them because “My family pays X amount of dollars for me to be here.”
(That last is not a hypothetical. I once had a friend who adjuncted at a very expensive private college and students *literally* said those things to her.)
Hell, my mom is a doctor of clinical psychology and a licensed forensic psychologist with more career experiences and accomplishments than I can list here, and she started out at a community college! Your classmates are just being snobs and you can laugh at them when they are declaring bankruptcy because of student loan debt and/or finding out that in the real world, an expensive degree from a “prestigious” school is not necessarily a guarantee of anything.
Thankfully everyone in my family has had a much better reaction. There’s was more of a “They were going to charge you THAT MUCH for classes? Yeah, you definitely made the right choice.” Put snide, snobby people who work at the same place but in a “higher prestige” role are real assholes sometimes. And I’ll definitely agree on Community Colleges being a better experience. Drunk roommates who are English majors who can fall back on their parents successful medium sized business are not conducive to a learning environment.
I’m really glad you have your family’s support, even if your former classmates are being spoiled douchecanoes. 🙂
The cost of a college education in this country is *insane,* especially because it’s getting harder and harder to get even a semi-professional job without a college degree. And non-loan financial aid (like scholarships, grants, and work-study programs) is fast disappearing.
Total U.S. student loan debt it almost 1.5 trillion dollars. Let that sink in for a second.
Umm, does anyone else feel slightly…weirded out by the way Raidah’s talking about Harrison? It just feels a little off that she seems so focused on her SO’s brother.
I think she’s trying to get a rise out of Joyce. She’s assuming that, being the kind of Christian she is, Joyce will find fighting for transgender rights abhorrent.
She’ll soon realise that she’s wrong, and try a different tack.
Is Joyce even aware yet that transgender people exist (other than whatever her church might have told her)? She knows Carla has her own room but she doesn’t know why, and she thinks her sister Jocelyne is “Joshua”.
I mean, honestly? Doubtful. We expect her to come around quickly once she finds out a la Becky, but Carla isn’t anywhere near close enough friends yet to tell the clearly-early-stages-recovering-fundie what trans people are, and Jocelyn’s not ready to break ties from the rest of the family yet. She could have found out things online when she was looking up LGBT-friendly scripture interpretations, but if she missed the Ruth and Naomi one, I doubt she was looking hard enough to get a solid crash course on LGBT issues outside that.
Oh, I’m sure she knows about the term transgender. That bathroom nonsense a while ago didn’t pop up out of nowhere and I’d not be surprised if her church was ALL UP IN IT.
Do we… even know what Becky’s mentality towards trans* people is? I wouldn’t go “lesbian therefore informed about and cool with trans folk”, personally. I mean, she didn’t even know that bisexuality was a “thing”, so I’m honestly not leaning towards her knowing more than Joyce. And I hope she would be chill once informed but you sadly can’t assume that.
TERFs are mostly lesbians, so Becky being a lesbian means less than nothing about how accepting she’ll be of trans people.
Personally, I am thinking Becky will follow the Becky pattern: “Pfft, that doesn’t exist – wait it does?! Wow, people are weird. I don’t get it but whatever floats yer boat.” and thereafter radically accepting. Because that’s Becky.
Joyce OTOH I think is going to have another moral panic because that’s Joyce. But she loves her siblings enough I think Jocelyn might wind up being the straw that breaks the back of her faith.
Yeah, Joyce will flip out and be confused and say hurtful things, but she’ll come around – like she has with every other one of these kinds of issues, because people are more important to Joyce.
Except in one circumstance: If it’s Jocelyn and in the midst of conflict with her parents, in which case it’ll be full on righteous fury from the start.
Yeah agreed. In conflict, Joyce prioritizes the wellbeing of those she cares about and feels are being attacked.
Then again, between Jocelyn and her parents… I wouldn’t put it past Joyce to freeze if she’s surprised by Jocelyn’s gender. If she knows ahead of time, I see her going full righteous fury. If she’s surprised, I see her freezing in shock – we’ve seen before that Joyce very much has fight-or-freeze in response to adrenaline. She doesn’t seem to have much of a flight response – and typically when she’s frozen, it’s because the situation is completely outside of anything she’s ever entertained as a possibility before. She froze when Ross pointed a gun at her for example.
Seeing the favorite get into a blow up fight with the parents over gender identity would probably fall in the category of “completely outside anything she’s ever entertained as a possibility before.” And I can see it really messing with her mind if she did freeze.
I half-think the reason she’s interested in Jacob to begin with, or at least willing to seriously pursue him, is that she wants a contact there. Networking is everything, after all. And if Jacob is attached to her, he needs to be at least as glamorous as she is.
It’s one of the methods that she controls Jacob – “If you don’t achieve the same absurd levels of success as your brother then you are intrinsically a failure; let me help you!”
Jacob already wanted to live up to his brother’s reputation. We can’t pin that one on Raidah. Regardless, it’s definitely something she brings up a lot – in this case, to get him to see he and Joyce want very different things professionally, and before when she was turning Jacob’s offer to fool around down.
We can’t hold it against Raidah that he does. She however seems to have grabbed onto it to use as a lever to manipulate him. That we can hold against her.
Don’t ever let the Raidahs of the world know anything about you.
We can’t hold it against Raidah that Jacob feels inferior to his brother. We can and do hold it against her that she is stroking that insecurity to her own ends.
I’m not even sure it’s “feels inferior”. You don’t have to be insecure to look up to an older sibling and want to emulate them. Especially when Harrison has to be good deal older – probably close to 10 years at least, if he’s a full-fledged lawyer with a significant role on a case like that.
Oh absolutely. She’s working that desire to emulate his awesome big brother and make his family proud like its her JOB and that is absolutely something to be criticized.
I’m waiting for Jordan to be absurdly inoffensive but not toeing extremely close to the church/party line and that’s why every member of Joyce’s family is being weird about it.
Like, he’s a pharmacy tech or something but his not being a missionary had Hank and Carol sweating bullets.
Probably the most likely option, all told. (Except maybe ‘religion is the opiate of the masses’ atheist. He doesn’t appear to be particularly interested in reaching out to the family, but we have a very narrow perspective here. And as far as we know, Jocelyn hasn’t reached out to him, which could mean a lot of things, but again the narrow perspective means that’s not given as true.)
My guess isn’t that he’s not interested, but rather that he’s been cut off.
When I first re-came out (I had come out as a teen and they thought it was a phase), I was told in no uncertain terms to stay away from my sister’s kids. So I visited only once a year for several years. They’ve begun unbending because they’ve realized my sexual orientation will outlast their bigotry and for all their other faults, they do view having me in their life as more important than their bigotry. So, there’s that.
Now whether that will hold if/when I ever come out on the gender front to them… who knows.
Yeah, I’m just wondering if that cut off has prevented him from contacting Jocelyn as well. Again, we have such a limited perspective we don’t know either way. Doesn’t help that we don’t know how much older Jordan is than Jocelyn, either, or WHEN the estrangement began, which could both contribute to whether or not they’ve tracked each other down or tried.
Joyce’s parents have literally cut off Jordan from contact with the rest of their family. (To the extent that they can — presumably they no longer have that power over Jocelyn.)
Whatever Jordan has said or done or been has to be something that would make Hank and Carol cut off one of their own children. When you consider that Carol has said she would die for Joyce, cutting off Jordan must have resulted from something drastic (from Carol’s point of view).
My money says Raidah brought up Jacob’s brother’s work on the transgender rights case in hopes of setting off a nasty reaction from Joyce to make her look bad in Jacob’s eyes. Jacob must have told Raidah that Joyce grew up in a regressive church, but he must have neglected to tell her that Joyce’s best friend is a lesbian.
Making Joyce look even better because it shows Joyce is growing and choosing compassion over dogma.
It’s been, at most, six or seven weeks since Joyce believed, unquestioningly, everything that her church taught her. With the sliding timescale and this being conservative-leaning Indiana, Joyce’s church was quite likely involved in the whole anti-trans stuff that got kicked up a notch a few years back…and with Joyce having no idea about Carla, Jocelyne not being out to her, and Joyce not being in Alex’s class, Joyce may very well have no idea about trans people beyond what her church has taught her (“they’re all waiting to assault you in your bathrooms!” etc). She hasn’t yet, to my knowledge, had an epiphany about them the way she did when Becky showed up – I’m betting that’s most likely to take place only if and when Jocelyne comes out to her.
Being okay with gay people (or even being a gay people)is super different from accepting trans people, let alone cherishing them enough to really prove Raidah wrong
Sad to say but there are people who identify as gay who are staunchly anti-trans- basically for the same reason you get some insecure straight guys who are angry about trans women. “I’m into the same sex and this person was once not considered that and icky and cooties and it makes me ANGRY!”
I mean, I don’t know how common that is. I suspect a lot of it is more low-key “well I don’t want to date them”. But yeah, it’s out there.
There’s also TERFs, who are worse because they’re that kind of bigotry only organized and acting with planned malevolence.
Things TERFs have done:
*Partnered with groups that advocate the death penalty for LGBTQIA people, bonding over their mutual hatred of trans people
*Supported bathroom bills
*Outed trans people
Could go on but yeah. I won’t mention She Who Shall Not Be Named here but there is a certain TERF who will show up with the initials CB who is particularly awful if you google them. The reason I am not mentioning her by name here is she literally googles her own name a lot and has, does, and will come after any site host who has comments critical of her – she’s a big fan of SLAPP suits.
Sooo yeah, short version: Being LGBQ or A means nothing about whether you’ll be trans-inclusive.
I can’t tell if you (Jason and ischemgeek) are trying to build on what I said or correct me. If it’s the latter these are what I meant, I just didn’t expand on it at the time
Sorry had a damn stressful day sooo… longstoryshort had to face a phobia and yeah. Did the thing, didn’t puke or run screaming out of the room or hit anyone, did cry and pass out, still calling it a win.
Yeah, and there’s also a huge difference between being supportive of gay people and supportive of a gay person. Which, not to say that Joyce isn’t the former, but simply her having a lesbian as her best friend does not automatically mean she’s accepting or even tolerant of the LGBT community at large. Though we as the audience know Joyce’s feelings towards the gay community, that doesn’t mean people in-comic know it. After all, someone who doesn’t know Joyce that well could see Becky as being an ‘exception’ in her eyes, rather than proof of Joyce’s opinions changing.
hrm. that’s not available. I guess canadian netflix is still behind on content.
I’m also annoyed that it doesn’t have Babylon 5; now we’ll have to dig up old files that theoretically exist on some device somewhere in this house… (but hey, at least I’m not fighting with the corrupted ds9 dvds that we paid good money for only 7 years ago 😛 )
As someone who ended up an areligious Christian/Buddhist mix with plenty of friends raised fundie who went pagan and Buddhist, I could see that being at least as scandalous as coming out gay to them.
Jordan’s part of some ultra-secret military or intelligence agency special ops unit. The Browns don’t like it because they don’t trust secular governments. They only know about it because they were inadvertent witnesses to some operation Jordan was involved in, and can’t tell Joyce because it’s classified.
I don’t think there are dangerous aliens in this universe. I was thinking along the lines of some part of the CIA’s Directorate of Operations, or a military outfit like Delta Force. Of course this being fiction it would probably be a made up one.
You know, we have been told one thing about Jordan: he and his parents don’t always see eye to eye, but he’s still a good kid.
So it would seem Jordan has left the ways of humanity behind and now lives on a farm as a goat. I’m not sure all that entails, but you can see how such religious parents might be reluctant to discuss that kink with their daughter.
Replace “goat” with “horse”, and you have the book ending to Gulliver’s Travels. That always really weirded me out, reading the unabridged edition when I was younger.
I would just like to point out that, while “missionary” is low-paying, it is historically pretty high class, as poor people couldn’t typically afford to go traipsing off to be missionaries. Missionaries also have to speak a foreign language, which often took several years of university training.
Many missionaries became professors due to their knowledge of different countries.
EG, Sidney Gulick, missionary to Japan, 1860-1945, held degrees from Dartmouth, Oberlin, and Yale. He taught at Doshisha University in Kyoto and lectured at the Kyoto Imperial University.
While we’re at it, since very few people are defending Raidah, I’d like to note that it is entirely possible that she is not being evil. I am not the best judge of facial expressions, but she looks like she is genuinely smiling at the beginning of the comic. Maybe Jacob’s brother is just an interesting topic of conversation and she actually admires him. She doesn’t know much about Joyce’s family before asking, so she’s not purposefully setting things up to make Joyce look bad.
Since Raidah isn’t a main cast character and it’s been a while since we’ve had much of a scene with her, I can’t remember too much of what she’s like, and we haven’t seen much from within her point of view. Which means… we don’t really have a whole lot of information about her. She might have a good side.
For example, if we only saw Sarah’s behavior from the outside–the side her friends saw–we’d see someone who got her roommate expelled because she was taking her mother’s death badly. Until we know more of Raidah’s side of things, or see more of her, I’m comfortable with entertaining the possibility that she has a good side.
Her last appearance before this lunch was chatting with her cronies about Joyce sniffing around her man. She raced down her as soon as she heard about Jacob and Joyce having lunch. She had that nice little staredown with Joyce when she showed up.
“I don’t want someone flirting with my boyfriend” is a very normal and not-evil reaction.
If the situation were reversed and Raidah were purposefully flirting with Joyce’s boyfriend, and Joyce showed up, concerned, we’d think Joyce was pretty much in the right.
Absolutely. I read your other post as saying she wasn’t being hostile here – genuinely smiling, not purposefully making Joyce look bad, etc.
That she’s concerned is very normal. I do think she’s being pretty ugly about how she’s expressing that concern – both here and when she was talking to her gang about it.
very few people are defending raidah because it’s not a particularly defensible position. that stuff you can’t remember (and/or haven’t noticed), it’s in the comments, and it’s pretty damning.
Stuff Raidah did in the past, however, is not stuff that is happening right now, and people are judging the current situation.
So far she’s asked about Jacob’s brother, said something nice about him, and asked about Joyce’s family. “So, Joyce, do you have any brothers or sisters?” is not exactly A-level evil.
Shockingly, when people judge a situation, they often consider what the people involved have said and done in the past and what that reveals about motivation for their current actions.
Are you really asking that we judge each and every day’s strip with no reference to any previous strips? I mean, you’re even ignoring the pointed comments about Joyce’s financial prospects from yesterday’s strip at this very same lunch.
Yeah, I’ve been reading that line in a few days. I think she’s TRYING to make it sound friendly and competitive for Jason, but really saying ‘can you even imagine living up to something even acceptable to associate with jacob?’ to Joyce, and aldo like she’s saying Jacob is going to have to try topping that and then look how cool her boyfriend ans later convenient husband or associate will be.
Ignore typos, sleepy and on phone thatwrites slowerthan I type
You know, it had been me policy to hold judgement on Raidah until this point. We hadn’t seen her much when she wasn’t around Sarah, and treaty your enemies poorly is to be expected. But this is just the worst. I was willing to let Raidah show me some further layer of complexity, but instead she gives me this. Valley girl shit that anyone would have seen through in the seventh grade, let alone in college.
I wasn’t fond of Raidah from the little bit we’ve seen, but my distaste for her is growing rapidly. I’m getting the feeling that she is fundamentally just not a nice person. Or has a very narrow definition of ‘nice’ that only applies to her privileged few.
Nah, the fallout between Raidah and Sarah was very understandable. Not being able to watch it play out in front of us I find it very easy to believe either sides version.
That whole situation was a giant shade of grey especially considering how shit Sarah is at not coming across as wholly self interested to people who don’t know her really well.
“Definitely the best kind of missionary” is top level response to “he’s a missionary with a cool car.” I’m not fond of Raidah, but kudos for that one, at least.
Other people have commented on Raidah bringing up Harrison, but yeah. That’s a big thing, isn’t it? I find it quite disturbing how eager Jacob is to be like his brother and, worse, how quick Raidah is to press on that. She really doesn’t seem to be in the relationship for the relationship- and same for Jacob, he’s with her because of a literal checklist according to him and she backs that up, saying she’s what he needs for the future.
But more to the point, there seems to be something going on with regards to Harrison. It doesn’t seem to be resentment, but the mere mention of him seems to drive Jacob, which hugely concerns me. He seems to me to be the most likeable character to date, and I want to see him with minimum baggage and maximum happiness.
Unfortunately, this is Dumbing of Age. A baggage-free and emotionally-healthy main cast character is extremely unlikely. Heck, as a rule, even the secondary-level characters have their serious issues!
Riley, Sierra, Other Rachel, Other Rachel’s gf whose name I can’t bothered to look up, the tattooed arm guy (I want to say Amir?) and HIS bf, and precious cinnamon roll Agatha seem to be of the very few that avoided the baggage claim.
This is, of course, a necessity of narration. “This person was extremely well-adjusted and moved through their life without shenanigans” does not make for a compelling story.
Noting that it was Raidah who brought up the transgender laws thing… I wonder if she’s trying to get Joyce to do a conservative Christian freakout in front of Jacob so Jacob won’t find her quite so cute anymore?
Raidah is Muslim and I’m certain she’s had her share of Barbie blonde evangelicals freaking out at her before. If I had to hazard a guess, she knows Jacob looks up to his brother, therefore she can guess he supports his brother’s ethics and is progressive. She knows Joyce was brought up in a religious conservative household. She’s seen Joyce have freakouts before (the dress being too low-cut).
I don’t think her bringing up the trans stuff was a mistake. If I’m right, let’s expect to see more of it as she tries to find the right angle to set Joyce off.
(Also, props to Willis for not only seeing but portraying well the way cis feminists sometimes weaponize trans narratives to their own ends. Well done – I’ve seen more than a few cis feminists bring up trans issues at strategic times to try to provoke a freak-out that would justify out-grouping someone they don’t like).
Raidah’s a fantastic character – IMO she’s an excellent foil for Dorothy. They’re both ambitious, they’re both driven, both going to law school. The main difference is Raidah knows what is going to get her ahead in life, and knows for damn sure that’s not academics – it’s human connections and networking. Dorothy is still sheltered enough to think that grades matter at all for anything past getting your first post-uni job (Protip: they don’t. Networking is way more important) and that she won’t have to compromise herself to get where she wants to go.
Raidah’s also a great foil for Sarah, although Sarah’s differences has to do more with her difficulty in making human connections. Dorothy is good at making connections, she just de-prioritizes it in favor of academics. Sarah on the other hand is just bad at social. Dorothy can learn to reassess her priorities from Raidah, but Sarah needs to watch how Raidah gets most of their friend group wrapped around her finger – even the people who don’t like Raidah wind up doing what she wants them to do. That’s a really good skill in a lawyer, especially any type of lawyer who wants to end up doing trials (thought I’d suspect Raidah wants to go business law as opposed to one of the disciplines that gets more trial time because that has higher status and more money).
I want to see more Dorothy-Raidah interactions because I think Dorothy could learn a lot from Raidah. I’d like to see more Sarah-Raidah interactions because it’d be nice to see Sarah recognize Raidah has a strength where she has a weakness and work on it accordingly.
To be clear, I don’t approve of what Raidah is doing here, but Raidah has her shit together far more than most of the audience (and cast for that matter) gives her credit for. She’s not a great person, to be sure, but she is formidable. As they currently are, Raidah would have much better odds of eventually making first female president than Dorothy, if she were a white Christian instead of a brown Muslim. The really scary thing is, I wouldn’t put it past Raidah to have figured that out and changed her ambitions accordingly.
For Jacob’s part… I feel bad for him. It’s rough if you have an older sibling who is so obviously a super-achiever. I’m guessing Jacob has always gone through being what, for any other kid, would be considered a star student – member of the football team, good grades, genuinely helpful, etc. But because of his older brother, he sees himself as lacking – since no matter what he does, his brother did it first and better.
And immediately after she brings up transgender issues, she dismisses Joyce’s transgender sister for being a blogger. Not that any of them know she’s transgender, but it’s a clear signal to the readers that Raidah’s probably a Roz.
I see more Carol in Raidah than Roz. Roz isn’t cunning and calculating the way Raidah is. Roz knows how to play the manipulation game, but she seems incapable of taking the long view, and she’s not ruthless enough.
Which probably explains why and how Joyce saw through her provocation and refused to take the bait so well. She’s had a lot of practice with her mother.
This seems a weird accusation. Raidah is dismissive of the blogger, not of the transwoman, because “blogger” does not match the achievements she or Jacob have idealized for themselves.
Also, reminder that, as far as we know, Roz walks that walk.
Yeah I think you’re right – Raidah is dismissive of blogger. She has no way of knowing Jocelyn is trans.
That said, I think she let the subject get changed from trans stuff because Joyce didn’t take the bait. I think Raidah is now trying to figure out how to provoke a reaction.
In North America, most professional schools (engineering excepted for some reason) require an undergrad degree before you can apply. Law typically requires undergrad in science, engineering, criminology, or political science.
In Canada yeah. So like if you’re wanting to be a patent lawyer, it’s a good idea to have science or engineering background. If you want to go into business law, a business degree is probably a good idea. Etc.
To make it extra confusing some places offer an undergrad in certain areas of law that is not enough to pass the bar or become a lawyer but is enough to give you a leg up to law school.
Engineer here. Unless one is going to become licensed as a Professional Engineer (PE), a Bachelor degree in Engineering is usually sufficient to do work in the corporate or R&D world. PE can be thought of as analogous to passing the bar for lawyers or the licensing exams for MDs or RNs.
Pretty much any major (humanities included) works for law, they mostly just want to know you can think. My mother got into Georgetown with a French degree.
It’s kind of ironic that Raidah is defending trans people just to look superior, but she unknowingly mocked the sibling of Joyce that is a trans woman.
Also, my predictions of what Jordan does are: porn star, stripper, liberal activist, Democrat, the New Wolf of Wall Street, a scientologist, a bomber of abortion clinics, a member of a Fight Club, an alt right racist, a social justice warrior, a stunt double, a hitman, the wingman of the celebrities, the lawyer of Hollywood’s elite, etc.
I have SERIOUS doubts that New Wolf of Wall Street, bomber of abortion clinics, or alt right racist would cause him to be ostracised by Carol. 50/50 on hitman, depending on what contracts he took.
Oh Willis, you’re about to be flooded with requests for a bonus scene with Harrison now.
And I love the amount of pride Joyce has in her siblings even though Raidah is trying to be classist as fuck at her. Like, yeah, Jocelyne is a BLOGGER and that’s awesome and so on.
I’m still stuck on $50k *USD* not being considered a lot of money. That’s like, $67k AUD. If I had a job that paid that, I could afford an inner-city apartment by myself, a pet, good food, private health insurance, and saving up to actually buy a house. Maybe I’m aiming low but that’s a friggin dream to me.
Raidahs strategy did, at first, appear odd to me in that she seemed to be playing to Joyces strengths by playing up now good, decent and nice Joyce is but now its becoming clearer that Raidah is letting Jacob subtly know that what he wants seems to be incompatible with what Joyce clearly wants
Jacob clearly wants to be a success, as does Joyce, but his version of success includes climbing the corporate/law ladder and making a difference whereas Joyces idea of success is more geared towards marriage and family (of course Jacob also wants that but he probably assumes that will happen rather than work towards it)
To cbwroses: Agreed, Jacob is too perfect at the moment as the only flaw he seems to have is, and its quite a stretch to describe it as such, being a bit oblivious
Might be even subtler – Jacob wants someone who’s going to be working with him, sharing his goals. Whether that’s actually working together in the same business or just doing the same kind of “making a difference”, while Joyce is stuck in the “husband goes out and does that stuff while I stay home with the kids as support.”
Even leaving aside the materialism, that’s a huge difference in life expectations.
Now, I’m pretty sure Joyce is going to move away from that, but Jacob doesn’t realize we’re in a long term character arc. 🙂
I’m not keen on the view that materialism is somehow more, or less, virtuous than the other. Its a good thing Joyce (maybe) wants to teach kids, teaching is a noble profession but going out and doing what Harrison has done is also noble.
But yeah its a big difference in expectations, Jacob realises that to achieve what he wants to achieve that it’d be in his best interest to have a like minded partner because they’ll be more likely receptive to the extremely long and arduous hours it’ll take Jacob to get there
Joyce, at the moment, is sounding like she wants something else entirely, more likely a doting husband that won’t be spending a lot of time away from home and won’t be putting his career ahead of his family
I don’t like Raidah but shes not playing this badly at all
Joyce specifically is in education so she can home school her kids because, I dunno, women working outside home (unless its for church) is the Devil. Becky was shoved that way too until she came out and realized she could do what she wanted.
Yeah no doubt she’ll dump that viewpoint later but, for now, thats the impression shes giving Jacob
I’m just really liking that this storyline isn’t cut and dried “shes good so she deserves the boy and shes bad so she deserves to lose the boy” kind of thing
Both Raidah and Joyce are not covering themselves in glory here
Yeah, Raidah seems to make Jacob very happy – he’s not stopped smiling at her since she came (except once when he was confused by Joyce calling 50K a lot of money).
Radiah seems to be trying to make Joyce look bad, but it’s really making Radiah look snobbish. I think Radiah is going to end up shooting herself in the foot with this tactic.
I feel like Raidah is someone who’s very concerned with appearing acceptable and doesn’t really care about much that’s beyond that. She’ll tell off her friend for calling Dina the R-word, but she’ll still call her mentally challenged to her face and talk down to her. She’ll bring up trans people as a tool to provoke a fundamentalist and seem better than her, she’ll use subtle classism as a way of getting one over on a romantic rival. From the way she mentioned Harrison, which we’ve seen is an insecurity of Jacob’s, I feel like he’s not safe from this attitude either.
Joyce is being shitty here, but her behavior is pretty limited to just Raidah and Jacob. I think why I like Raidah less than Joyce (besides Joyce being the main character) is because she’s consistently used outsiders against people she’s fighting with. You can see it here with her bringing up Harrison and putting Joyce’s family and class on blast, and you could see it earlier where she tried to use Dina’s (perceived) disability to turn people against Sarah. Raidah’s high-stakes ruthless in pretty low-stakes interactions.
I wouldn’t call Harrison an insecurity of Jacob’s. He seems pretty happy talking about him and really seems to admire him. He wants to be like him and make his family proud but that’s not the same thing as being insecure and worried about him.
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he’s committed, isn’t he
…TO BEING AN ADULT FILM STAR!
or… mining Bitcoin? idk
Actually, much like Jocelyn, Jordan is a writer. Joyce has never encountered any of his work because he uses a pseudonym.
Here’s a hint, it rhymes with Buck Mingle.
aND IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW
YES IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW
OH WOAH HOW WOWO OWO
AND IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOWWWWW (yeah yeah)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjSnxYm5tcs
YES calling it now Jordan is an Internet Pornlord and so the true self-insert has been revealed
They do self-insert porn now?
Of course! I believe they call it Character x Reader and it’s mostly on…deviantart??
And then once you’re successfully self-inserted, you get to insert into others nudge nudge wink wink sorry
I know the answer to this. Should I be proud, or ashamed?
The guy’s work is currently in a Humble Bundle.
We left the shame station a while ago.
Yes.
… who is it?
Chuck Tingle, who’s bizarre works of porn can occasionally be found in the twitter feed to the right of this thread. —>
That’s not the anachronistic dinosaur porn person, right?
Only if it’s gay, as well.
Also the dinosaur must be a billionaire, or from space.
Oh, Chuck Tingle. He also did one titled ‘Oppressed in the Butt by My Non-Denominational Holiday Coffee Cup’. (I may be misremembering the exact words, but not by much.)
Ah.
…oh.
He also wrote Trump slashfic pr0n. One phrase: “Soggy Cheeto”.
Pounded in the Butt by the Anthropomorphic Personification of Rejecting My Fundamentalist Childhood?
When that one shows up as an actual title three months from now with a badly-Photoshopped cover of a cross with a face, I will thank you.
If that becomes a real one, it will take the honor of greatest title ever from ‘Pounded by the Pound: Turned Gay by the Socioeconomic Implications of Britain Leaving the European Union’. Second place is obviously ‘Heavy Metal Unicorn Lawyer Sings Into My Butthole Legally’. Wait, that latter one sounds like it could be a Jacob/Joe Slipshine, which makes it better…I’ve decided to flip those two in my rankings.
Pounded In The Butt By The Sudden Realisation That My Brother Is An Author Of Niche Erotica.
Turned Gay By the Intense, Passionate Social Commentary
I honestly thought you guys were making up those titles. Turns out I was mistaken.
I was particularly fond of Slammed in the Butt by My Hugo Award Nomination, which he used to troll the Gamergater trolls trying to troll the Hugos by nominating him for one. 🙂
Pounded by the Throbbing Question: Butt What Does Jordan Actually Do?
This has become my headcanon, only it has burst through the walls of headcanondom and become reality. Sorry, Willis, if that’s not what you were planning, but there are four lights and all.
although i don’t think jocelyn is a pseudonym in this case
When I was younger I wanted to legally change my name to drop my middle name. Nothing wrong with “Michael”, it just didn’t speak to me. Maybe Jocelyn J. Brown is Joycelyn L. Brown’s nom de plume. Why not?
I wanted to change my name for the longest time (especially after making what retroactively feels like a huge mistake and using my real name online), and for a long time I thought I could only do it when I got married b/c LOL WHY QUESTION THE PATRIARCHY
then I realized I could just change it whenever but held off b/c I couldn’t decide
then I finally got married and just changed the spelling of my middle name to match the otherwise same name of a character I like (plus his name as a compound middle name)
…idk, all my other preferred names I ended up giving to my OCs and it feels weird sharing 🤷♀️
Now I’m really curious about what Jordan does.
I’ll bet it goes well to the tune of this song.
Or perhaps this song?
He’s probably this universe’s Mister Rogers – which is to say, among other things, a minister of a different christian sect.
THE SHAME.
WHAT IF HE’S A SCIENTIST???
Yeah, I’m pretty sure Raidah is trying to get it in Jacob’s head that he and Joyce want different things out of life.
And I JUST WANT TO KNOW ABOUT JORDAN – WILLIS IS A FICKLE, CRUEL GOD.
What do Joyce’s siblings have to do with what she wants in life? Raidah’s just being a percussion instrument.
I was talking more about her bringing up Jacob’s brother right after she talked about her own career ambitions, but yeah fair. I was unclear.
I think its the whole “the acorn doesn’t fall far from the tree” argument.
If your siblings haven’t really done anything worth while with their lives, there is a chance that your family doesn’t put much emphasis in achievement in general and YOU won’t amount to much.
Maybe its true, maybe its not. (I’m sure people can come up with examples that either prove or disprove the idea.)
Hey, I thought in America you can be anything, not matter what your family does?
That’s the ideal. However, America’s a lot like the rest of the world socially, in that there’s a TON of social pressure to ‘take after your parents’. It takes a LOT of effort to fight that, and the fact that it’s legal to do so, here, still doesn’t make it easy.
Not necessarily “take after your parents”, unless your parents have the kind of family business that tends to get passed down.
More that basic social class stuff does matter more than we like to pretend. And family does drive social class. Best predictor of income is family income.
She literally reminded them in the last comic that she’s there for her MRS degree, not to do anything with her life.
This is protagonist centered morality on steroids.
Every time Jordan comes up, I end up imagining the grumpy Zebstrika with that name from a Nuzlocke.
Who are you, Jordan? Who are you?
What Raidah is trying to get in Jacob’s head is that Joyce is beneath him. That she doesn’t have wealth or status, nor a path to wealth or status, whereas he does. Because that’s what Raidah’s priorities are, and she assumes that they’re Jacob’s too.
She also believes that she’s the best suited to get to what she KNOWS Jacob’s goals are – becoming successful at law, live up to his brother’s reputation, and making his family proud.
My impression was that Raidah raised the subject of Jacob’s brother’s work with transgender rights hoping to inspire some good old fundie hate speech from Joyce.
Good thought. It could be a two-fer. She’s definitely pushing the “you and Joyce want different things” angle, but angling for the prejudice works too.
I could see that with the transgender issue, except Raidah doesn’t actually give Joyce a chance to respond before changing the subject completely (at least as far as anyone at the table knows, unless Raidah has done some serious cyber-sleuthing on Joyce’s family)
More than anything, the obvious read to me is that she’s pushing “Jacob, you come from a good family (in terms of wealth and status) and you are going places (in terms of wealth and status). Joyce is neither of those things. Joyce is lesser. Joyce is unworthy of having you, unlike me, who you already know enjoys a similar position of wealth and status.”
It is super showing Raidah’s priorities on her sleeve, to the point that she assumes they’re everyone’s priorities.
And there is an aspect of Jacob that wants that, but not in the sense that he needs to be part of a ‘high power’ couple to be fulfilled. He wants to be successful, but his version of successful isn’t about being above others, it’s about achieving his own potential. What he needs is a partner who supports him and his goals, not someone who further adds to his wealth and status as Raidah is selling.
I agree that’s what she’s pushing.
I’m not so sure Jacob’s vision of success is as clear. I want it to be, because I like him, but we haven’t seen enough to be sure Raidah isn’t somewhat on the right track.
Personally, I don’t want Jacob to be that shallow, but I would like to see the dude have some flaws, if only for the sake of character.
If one of those flaws is him being shallow and materialistic, oh well.
The whole “he helped strike down those anti-transgender laws” bit, maybe Raidah presumed that would be a subtle dig to make Joyce feel uncomfortable, considering her fundamentalist upbringing?
(Sorry if someone already brought this up, the comments have exploded this week!)
*plays Diamond Dave’s version of “Just A Gigalo” on the hacked Muzak*
Gigolo, Gigolo…
Hummalay bebbulay zeebulay bubblay
Hummalay bebbulay zeebulay BOP
OMG, I actually know that song…
but I get older every second, I can’t wait forever. ;-;
You’re older than you’ve ever been
And now you’re even older.
And now you’re older still.
TIME
IS MARCHING ON
and TIME
IS STILL MARCHING ON
This tale will soon be at an end
And now it’s even sooner
And now it’s sooner still.
Its so obvious what Raidah’s doing that there’s practically a giant neon sign above her head that says “CONDESCENSION”
Using SOMEONE ELSE’S CLOUT to do so….And possibly hide behind. Who wants to hear about Raidah’s family?
Every time I think I can’t dislike Raidah any more than I already do, she makes another condescending comment to prove me wrong.
You know Raidah, you might think you’re winning this exchange, and to be fair Joyce doesn’t deserve to win, but you just seem petty. I hope Jacob realizes what is going on here and leaves with neither one of them, he really doesn’t need either one. I don’t know, maybe I’m not giving one of them enough credit but neither one are very endearing at the moment.
You’re not wrong
I was on the fence about this whole thing, but after the last couple of strips I’m firmly on Team Joyce on this one. It’s not even Joyce or Sarah’s fault breaking up Raidah’s relationship if Raidah ends up doing it herself.
And Joyce is honestly going about her ‘business’ in the best way possible, especially since finding out Sarah’s plan. (Tellingly to me, since finding out, she hasn’t talked up Sarah and is continuing to not badmouth Raidah or take shenanigans action.) She likes this boy. He has a girlfriend. She continues to be friends with the boy because they have shared interests. His girlfriend shows up unexpectedly to a group lunch. Joyce is perfectly friendly and conversational.
Like, I honestly really really have a hard time faulting Joyce’s actual behavior with Jacob. Whatever her thoughts/feelings/wishes, she’s conducting herself as Jacob’s friend. She’s not pushing anything, getting petty or passive-aggressive, or anything.
That may change! But for now the bad behavior is all Raidah’s.
I know, right? Raidah’s being pretty horrible. But then again, I’ve never really seen Raidah be anything but a sneaky snake in the grass. As grumpy as Sarah can be, at least she’s always been honest with her misanthropy…
Also, I honestly don’t get all the Joyce hate I’ve been seeing here lately – even when she was trying to talk up Sarah to Jacob, she wasn’t pushing him to break up with Raidah, just doing her best to make Sarah sound good… which, frankly, isn’t a bad thing to try and do on behalf of someone you consider to be a close friend. (And really – Joyce loves almost everyone she hangs out with like they’re her closest friends, probably because Becky’s the only real friend she’s ever had, until now.)
Same here, re: the Joyce hate. People keep referring to her hitting on Jacob in front of Raidah, and she’s really not. She hasn’t hit on him once. She’s been his friend, and some of their friendliness might drift into friendly flirting, but that is absolutely not the same as hitting on someone. Raidah is able to tell that Joyce likes him, but if Joyce isn’t hitting on him (which she really isn’t), she’s not really guilty of trying any shit.
I would absolutely call her behaviour flirting, personally. Joyce-level flirting, anyway, which alternates between far more smooth than I expected to… about as giggly and freaked out as I expected.
And she now knows the plan was for her to “seduce” (in the heaviest quotation marks there!) Jacob away from Raidah. She knows that and is FINE with that- in fact, she seems actively scheming about it. And I don’t much care about Raidah, and in this case I feel like she’s somewhat irrelevant as an individual- Joyce doesn’t know her and has no reason to care about hurting her. But she’s showing a complete lack of respect for JACOB’S wishes and that is a terrible sign for any sort of relationship. Jacob has stated he’s happy with Raidah, and Joyce is just fine with trying to sabotage that- even if it’s in innocent Joyce fashion.
Buuut that’s where my recent drop in respect for Joyce comes from, for me.
Yeah, I also don’t really see anything much wrong with what Joyce is doing… So far to me she just seems like she’s continuing to be Jacob’s friend, which is nice, because I think they can be really good friends!
I don’t get this.
I mean, she’s being relatively subtle about it – though not so subtle that everyone but Jacob isn’t aware of it, but she’s not just continuing to be Jacob’s friend. Her intentions are clearly romantic.
You can certainly decide to just be friends with someone you’ve got a crush on because they’re already with someone else. It’s not always emotionally easy, but it can be done. That’s not what Joyce is doing here. We see that in her attitude shift when she realized Joe and Sarah thought she had a chance with him, in that smile when she told Sarah not to worry about tricking her, in those expressions when Raidah showed up at this lunch.
She and Raidah are clearly fighting over Jacob and they both know it.
Raidah’s being nastier about it, because that’s the kind of person she is.
It’s not quite that clear-cut, though. It’s necessary to remember Joyce is a Grand Master at the art of living with cognitive dissonance. She is attracted to Jacob, and she has become consciously aware of that as Sarah’s plot was revealed to her.
But I don’t think she is actively trying to seduce Jacob away. Rather, she believes that because Raidah is unworthy (note that her negative opinion of Raidah is derived, not just from being Jacob’s girlfriend, but from her treatment of both Sarah and Dina)–and in Joyce’s mindset, the unworthy don’t get good things.
So she’s expecting “Jacob + Raidah” to fail regardless of what she does. Her interactions with Jacob, both prior to and after Joe’s revelation, are built as much around making sure he sees the new option once that happens–she’s simply switched from backing Sarah for that role to herself.
It’s a subtle difference, and certainly some others involved would likely not see it that way. But to Joyce’s mindset, if simply being a better/better-suited person than Raidah is enough to destroy their relationship, it was built on sand to begin with.
What might shock her, though, would be Jacob being in some way unfaithful to Raidah (even just a kiss)–her expectation would be that he would formally break it off first, then begin a relationship with Joyce instead. Her straightforward view of the world very, very often fails to incorporate or account for the fact that people are complicated.
It’s possible, I suppose. It seems to me though that from the very start she’s more dismissed Raidah than decided to cut her out of Jacob’s life because she wasn’t worthy. That was Sarah’s motivation, but Joyce has never really said anything about her, just how good Jacob and Sarah would be together (back when she was still living vicariously through that fantasy.
It seems to me that what Joyce is doing isn’t all that different than what “nice guys” do when they like a girl but don’t say anything: hang around them, be friends, and hope the girl sees how “good” they are for her.
The biggest difference I see between her behavior and that behavior is I can’t really see her freaking out if Jacob broke up with Raidah and then dated some other woman without considering Joyce.
But other than that, it seems pretty much the same behavior, and not something I’m used to hearing supported.
I don’t think it’s quite the same. Joyce seems to intend a bit more of active role than passively waiting to see how “good” they are.
That “bring it on” look between her and Raidah isn’t something I associate with the typical “Nice Guy” approach.
It’s not clear exactly how that’s going to translate into action.
Except she’s not saying anything to Jacob or even sharing that look with Jacob so it’s still counts as being “nice”.
That said, I don’t think she’ll react like those guys do if things don’t go her way, but that’s the only thing that strikes me as different.
To be fair, I’m a guy so I don’t have first hand experience with that behavior, so my understanding of the concept may be off.
On the other hand, there are a lot of comments saying Joyce is just being friends/friendly, which seems exactly how that behavior in guys is generally portrayed.
As I said, it’s not clear how that’s going to translate into action, but I’m pretty sure it will.
Likely not action against Raidah, but she’s not going to just wait around being friendly and hoping.
If Jacob were at all like me both girls would be losing badly.
Team Pizza FTW.
Joyce vs Raidah: No matter who wins, we lose.
Well Jacobs getting a pizza…
I predict Jacob not getting the passive-agressiveness at all.
Probably another thing Raidah likes about him.
Both she and Sarah have a strong tendency towards being as toxic to themselves as possible, but at least with Sarah it’s tragic. There’s already too many people like Raidah (uppity peons) in all social classes of the world.
Joyce is a better person than Radiah, but none of them deserve Jacob. He is too good for both of them.
the more I think about it, the weirder the concept of “deserving” a specific person gets. like, Jacob deserves to be treated better than what either of them are doing right now, but… in a sense, *nobody* deserves Jacob, because Jacob is a person, because that sounds like it would mean he should date the person who “deserves” him regardless of his own feelings?
We’ve met the missionary, and Jordan is the trans-writer (do I have that right?), but who’s the blogger have we met him yet?
Jocelyn is the trans writer/blogger
Jocelyne is the trans writer/blogger (Joyce knows her as “Joshua”). We have not met Jordan yet – Jocelyne once referred to him as being “too Jordan” to show up at Freshman Family Weekend.
We also heard a mention of Jordan when Joyce overheard her parents talking about possibly taking her out of school…
Her parents referred to it as the ‘jordan’ situation, and it appears as if there is some family conflict involved.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/squeezing-2/
My suspicion is that “Jordan” is the one who’s had the nerve to openly stand up to their parents and disavow the whole situation – and therefore is probably the healthiest.
How that look in terms of life trajectory, I don’t know. Could be anything from ex-evangelical White Dude Atheist to a scientist who accepts evolution to someone who spends his spare time volunteering with NARAL.
No, we’ve met the missionary (John, the asshole), and the blogger (Jocelyne).
Jocelyne is actually the writer (though her family still knows her by her deadname), so she’s probably the “blogger,” since she has a writing website. Jonathan is the missionary. Jordan is the Mystery Boy.
Is “deadname” an accurate term if the name itself is still very much in active use? I mean, my deadname is toootally fuckin’ dead and has been for pretty much my entire adult life. (Actually I have two.) But it just seems like a term that doesn’t fit for Jocelyn’s shitty situation.
Personally I would probably default to calling it her birth name or something?
I think it’s fair to say her parents are deadnaming her. Jocelyn has really only demonstrated a tolerance for being called “Joshua” when her parents are around; she even gave Ethan the proper name for her blog. I suspect she’s tolerating being deadnamed by them to avoid becoming “a Jordan situation,” or worse, because she doesn’t want to lose Joyce the same way Jordan obviously has.
People very often have to deal with being deadnamed by their parents/around their parents LOOOOOONG after the name has been officially dead in their life.
Sorry, does it count as being deadnamed if you’re not out to the person? I’ve always read “deadnaming” as an active, passive aggressive swing at a trans person but maybe I’m wrong
I’d say the name itself is her deadname regardless but if she hasn’t yet come out to her parents yet I’d hesitate to call what they’re doing deadnaming. I’m pretty willing to accept the passive voice “before I came out I was being deadnamed constantly” but I feel like the active voice “they deadnamed me before I came out to them” attributes undue malice and kinda cheapens later, actual malice? My parents called me by the only name they knew before I came out — it’s after I came out that they started deadnaming me.
Well let’s be fair, if Jocelyne would come out to her parents about the trans and deadname stuff then she’d Actually become Dead to said parents.
I (occasionally) refer to my legal name as my deadname in spite of its continued use because it is a name I am actively trying to make dead. The fact that I cannot yet make it dead in certain contexts does not negate the fact that it is The Name That Should Be Dead.
Which sounds better than deadname, honestly, sounds like a B list horror film. The Name That Wouldn’t Die! Night of the Living Deadname
See, now I have to ask: since I took part of my deadname and made it my current name, does that make said current name a zombiename? Because that sounds neat.
would that make the protagonist
HeThey Who Shall Not Be Deadnamed? 🙂DAmn Raidah why are you such a raging bongo
Because the girl directly across from her wants her boyfriend?
And is making an open play for him.
Is she? All Joyce has done is be Jacob’s friend.
Your name somehow fits perfect with your comment.
And just for the record: I agree.
Yeah. Joyce might have decided she actually likes Jacob, but frankly, if she’s making a play for him, then she’s drastically changed her playbook. She didn’t act like this toward Joe before their one date, she didn’t act like this toward Ethan… (And I’m taking into account the way she behaved *before* finding out that Ethan is gay, and was trying to repress it.)
Other than occasionally giving him a flirty smile, (something she might not even be aware of, given that her mother clearly would never approve of her learning to flirt,) I have yet to see her treat him any differently than she does her other friends, other than being a bit more respectful of his personal space, which could possibly be attributed to the fact that she hasn’t known him as long.
Honestly, the habit she’s always had of bouncing after *everyone* like an overeager puppy, just tells me that she really was badly in need of a chance to make new friends. And frankly, if this *is* flirting, it’s a vast improvement on the way Walkyverse Joyce went about it. (The secondhand embarrassment, it was horrible…)
Yup, agreed. Being a friend where some interactions can be read as flirting is not the same thing as making an open play for someone. For contrast: think about Malaya picking up Joe. THAT is making a play for someone. This is friendly flirting.
That would be a reasonable assumption if we didn’t know her intent, which we very much do. (seen in this strip), and while different from Malaya’s (incredibly direct) approach, Joyce is still making a play on Jacob, albeit in a passive, more subtle, (arguably less effective), and long-game sort of way
Seriously, anything less than “Hey wanna fuck?” doesn’t count as making a play for someone?
Joyce is being subtle. That doesn’t mean the intent isn’t there.
Arguably, it’s more effective – since Jacob is attached, he’d reject any direct approach out of hand and likely cut off further contact.
There’s a difference between ‘making a play for’ and ‘getting into position’, though. Joyce is doing the latter. She believes that Raidah is a toxic individual, and that Jacob, being ‘good’ will eventually realize this and break it off on his own–at which point, she wants to be the one ready to help him move on.
It’s not honest, which is unfortunate and arguably criticism-worthy, but she’s not actively sabotaging the relationship–note that we’ve never seen her down-talk Raidah, directly or indirectly, to Jacob.
As I said above, I don’t agree with that being the motivation.
She is not actively sabotaging the relationship. She in fact pretty much completely ignores Raidah’s existence when she isn’t right there. Her approach seems to be the generally more effective one of building an emotional romantic style connection between her and Jacob.
So why not call her out on that instead of being passive aggressively awful about her career goals and siblings?
Because this webcomic isn’t called Intelligence of Age?
Also as pointed out below, Raidah doesn’t exactly have much reason to be enthused about a Christian missionary sibling.
Because she’s trying to manipulate Jacob away from any potential interest, not actively and visually cause drama. (Not to say she’s anti-drama, I don’t know, but I don’t think she wants to be seen caring, or feeling threatened, or letting it be anything but beneath her.)
She’s a would-be lawyer. Being passive-aggressively awful is a needed skill where she wants to go. :p
Because Raidah’s a jerk?
Awful and condescending are her default moves.
She honestly wasn’t really any nicer to her before that, when she was just Sarah’s friend. Raidah’s gonna Raidah.
She didn’t mind Joyce actually until this happened. She was helping her pick out her dress and jacket, etc.
She was still talking down to her. And she was talking crap about Sarah, to Joyce, too. She’s never really been a good person.
Sarah and Raidah’s feud doesn’t really bring out the best in either of them.
Agreed. I’ve defended Raidah before because we’d only seen her through Sarah’s eyes or in situations where her worst was brought out. I wanted to give her a chance to become more well rounded and see what she was like, but what we’ve seen since hasn’t inspired confidence.
I mean we’re in yet another situation where Raidah is opposite someone she has pretty understandable reason to be unpleasant to aka a girl who is trying to seduce her boyfriend.
That’s actually what I find interesting about this arc.
I like Joyce.
I like Jacob.
I like the idea of Joyce and Jacob together.
I don’t like Raidah.
I really dislike Raidah’s tactics here.
Joyce is completely in the wrong and Raidah is more justified – though Joyce’s methods are still better than Raidah’s.
I find it a very neat subversion of a lot of the usual romcom nonsense.
So far this hasn’t subverted the usual romcom nonsense though and it won’t until Joyce crashes and burns.
True, but I think the signs are there.
I’ve despised her since her interaction with Dina. I really don’t get why people care if Joyce steals Jacob from her, either for Sarah or herself.
I don’t care if Raidah loses Jacob.
I don’t think Joyce is doing the right thing trying to break them up. I don’t want her rewarded for doing something I think is lousy. She needs to learn a lesson about boundaries and her rom-com based understanding of relationships. Winning Jacob this way wouldn’t be good for her development.
Best case here, as far as I’m concerned is this blowing up in everyone’s face and Jacob ditching them all – Joyce for messing with his relationship and Raidah for showing her true colors in response. Except then we see less of Jacob.
It’s a complex situation, which I like. Thing I like least about it is that I suspect it’s going to kill Joyce/Jacob and I do like them together.
I care because I don’t think doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason is ok simply because the person you’re trying to mess over is a jerk.
Also, I’m against people trying to break up relationships, generally speaking. I will say I’m a little weird about that, tho because I think I view cheating as better than trying to sabotage a relationship. I think it’s a matter of who I place the blame on in that circumstance. But that’s neither here nor there.
I also don’t like the deceitfulness of it (again, weird considering I would feel better about cheating than sabotage). I’d rather Joyce tell him she has a thing for him and let him chose to hang out as friends.
NNo, in general.
Except she was The Worst™ from before all this
I’m almost disappointed by how transparent she’s being. Raidah was one of the more nuanced ‘villians’ (mostly because Sarah isn’t exactly a shining example of heroism either).
She’s being elitist, and she has been shown to be for a while.
Raidah’s been a raging b-word from her earliest appearances in this comic.
I would agree with that, but I would also say that she is someone who in most situations conceals her percussion-instrument personality behind the forms of earnest politeness, to the extent that people who are not directly on the receiving end of her attacks think of her as nice and polite and courteous, and can’t comprehend why anyone would see her in any other light.
She’s even doing that here, to an extent.
“He was a part of the team responsible for abolishing enormously shitty local laws! HIS POWER IS NOW INFINITE!”
TBF, it’s probably a bigger feat striking them down now, with the current administration. :/
I thiiink by the sliding timescale it technically did happen during the current administration?
And, well, I do think it’s an important accomplishment! Harrison sounds like a cool guy going off this. But, well… I admit I don’t know a lot about how this kind of legal action gets done, but it really sounds to me like Raidah is overselling his accomplishment. Jacob’s hyping him pretty hard, too…
Depends on the state laws, I think; over here where I live, the Republican-controlled state congress offered to repeal their infamous “bathroom bill” (which also forbade cities in the state from passing anti-discrimination legislation) if the cities that had passed anti-discrimination legislation prior to the bill repealed theirs first, IIRC – then when the cities in question did so, the state congress went back on their word and kept their bill on the books. The state Supreme Court is Republican-controlled as well last I checked, so if I’m not mistaken in my state’s case, an attempt to remove the bill through litigation might need to be fought all the way up to the federal-level Supreme Court.
Is it ‘State Congress’?
I thought congress only referred to the national one (as it’s a congress of the states), and the state legislatures had different names?
My state has, as I recall, both a State House of Representatives and a State Senate, for whatever reason. Hence, State Congress.
Most states do. Kansas is one of the few states (only state?) That has a unicameral state congress.
Basically any legal action’s a collaborative process. Even if there’s only one lawyer, there’s probably a paralegal too. Harrison could have been anyone from the one giving oral arguments to someone working with the clients to doing research to writing the motions the judge sees. All of which are important, and he could have been in any of those roles in any combination.
It’s a lot more impressive in conservative (or conservative leaning) areas. I believe Indiana is generally more conservative, if Willis hasn’t steered me wrong?
Trump’s VP Mike Pence is from Indiana, and they generally went red in 2016.
And Pence caused another spate of HIV infection because funding programs to cut down on needle sharing wouldn’t mean the gay druggies were being properly punished or something. (Goes to scrub previous sentence from soul)
I know they voted for Obama in one of his elections and that at least one swing district is in the state so I’m not sure about it in general. I defer to anyone else’s expertise.
I did just start off with a silly joke, but I -also- defer to everyone else’s expertise! So, thank you all for being so informative, I appreciate it a lot!
State as a whole is red. But even the reddest states are more purple than red or blue, once you get down to the county level, especially if you look at maps that are morphed to account for population rather than land:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/how-election-maps-lie/
There’s a graphic a bit before the halfway point that really shows why ‘red vs. blue’ is a horrible metric. If Harrison’s district includes Northwest Indiana, or Indianapolis, for instance, it’s much easier for him to take a progressive stance.
Harrison’s a lawyer, involved in a statewide transgender discrimination case, not a state rep.
No districts involved.
I’m always slightly amused by the fact that the Republican party shares its colour with Communism.
‘Red’ being permanently associated with the Republicans is a relatively recent thing, only going back to the 2000 elections, where the whole rigamarole kept the coloured maps on screens a lot longer than they would have been. Prior to that, the colours flipped with each election.
It’s still funny, though, plenty of Americans are old enough to remember “better dead than red”.
FYI this actually happened in real life, the 7th Circuit ruled that transgender students can’t be discriminated against. The 2nd Circuit ruled the other way however, so the ruling is only valid in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin until the Supreme Court resolves the split.
If that’s Hively vs Ivy Tech, I don’t think it actually did. It was a landmark employment case, but as far as I can tell it only applies to sexual orientation, not transgender discrimination.
If you’re thinking of something else, I’d like to know.
The Missionary was the asshole brother that Joyce RIGHTEOUSLY snapped at right? Back when she was visiting her folks?
Yup, she’s probably not exactly head of John’s fanclub still, but I’m not expecting she’d want to get into that right now. Ironically, that’d actually probably score points with Jacob, hearing about her laying into him.
It’s the sort of conversation where you brag about your siblings rather than rant about ’em.
It’s weird that Jacob has this amazing brother who Raidah is all ‘imagine living up to that’ and he’s just… unfazed about it all.
What are the odds that given a chance, Raidah would dump Jacob for Harrison like a hot potato?
Raidah’s going into law, right? With her behavior and the way she fawns over Harrison, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she’s just using Jacob as a stepping stone to future business connections.
Raidah’s father owns a law firm, so I believe that’s a big part of why Raidah’s in law herself.
I think she has literally said as much herself.
A stepping stone or a long term business partnership. Whichever is more effective.
Yeah, she does seem a bit “it matters more who you know than who you are” here. Which is a shitty way to live one’s life.
100% agree with Cerb here, for sure.
Jacob might want to be worried about introducing Raidah to Harrison.
Harrison is likely significantly older – through law school and playing a significant role in important cases. Not too likely to be interested in a college sophomore. Unless he’s a creep, of course.
Also, what is it with Raidah’s weird insistence on bringing up how amazing Jacob’s brother is? This is the second time she’s done it unprompted. If she’s so enthralled with Harrison why doesn’t she go hit on him?
Living up to Harrison the knight in shining armor seems to be the thing Jacob is invested in. Bringing him up now is defenitly a move to guilt-trip Jacob in some way. Either about spending time with people with less lofty ambitions, or about shallow activities like eating out with a group of people who cannot further his career, or something.
Asking Joyce about her siblings supplies more munition that Raidah could have though.
I wonder if Jordan is in jail,or studying biology or what?
Yeah, she’s using him to motivate Jacob. He probably let her know of his hero worship of his brother early on and she’s picked up on it.
Here it reads to me like “See, she’s not going to be able to help you live up to him.”
Also – yeah, I can’t fault Raidah for not being overly enthused about the missionary considering all the crap they’ve pulled.
Isn’t Raidah religious too? Be a bit hypocritical to get mad over that.
Raidah is a Muslim, but not at all pious.
I mean she mentioned going to mosque right?
Yeah, she invited Joyce to come to her mosque on Friday after Joyce and Jacob came back from the latter’s church – cue Joyce immediately backpedaling about 10 feet away from the couple.
Well I wouldn’t want to go either if it’s full of people as shitty as Raidah.
With what I know of the Muslim community here in the Midwest, I’d be surprised if many of them act nearly as judgmental as she has been shown to. Mind you that is based on my own subjective experiences and a very limited sample size of individuals (a few dozen or so, including a couple imams I’ve spoken with before).
Also, her acceptance of Dana’s habits plausibly speaks volumes regarding how much piety she may approach her religion from, much more so than the frequency with which she may attend mosque, if she also partook. Using intoxicating or mind altering substances is seen as haram, though I’ve seen some debate as to whether medicinal use, such as medical marijuana used purely as prescribed by a doctor, fall under mukruh instead.
I knew a few people at school who wouldn’t touch alcohol because it was forbidden, but were fine smoking pot. I expect that partly because illegality rendered debates pointless seeming at the time.
Raidah doesn’t believe in angels, so her level of religious belief depends on how important literal angels are to the Islamic faith.
I have no idea, but I assume Muslims believe in angels, and if so, that would imply Raidah is less religious than she seems.
Is a Christian who doesn’t believe in angels less religious than one who does?
More relevantly is a Christian who mocks the kind of Christian who’s really into literal angels flying around affecting daily life less religious than other Christians? Which is more I suspect what she meant.
I’d say so. You can believe in an all knowing, all powerful being who created the universe, but you can’t belive in that being having helpers? I’d consider that less religious. And if you don’t believe in that all powerful being, then you’re definitely less religious.
But, again, that depends on how important the belief in those beings being literally existing is to the religion.
For all I know, she might belong to a group of Muslims who don’t believe in angels, in which case she’s fine in that regard.
But if they do believe, then she’s definitely less religious than those who profess to believe in them. At least in regards to that particular version.
Though IIRC she didn’t actually say she didn’t believe in angels, she mocked Joyce’s belief in angels. Which is subtly different.
I mean, angels show up in the Bible, in the Old Testament (or the Torah) and thus are in the founding texts for Christianity, Judaism and Islam. That doesn’t mean that they’re always understood the same way.
I read that scoffing not as “there are no angels”, but “she’s one of those who take it all literally and think everyone has a guardian angel and whatever other nonsense goes along with it.”
You don’t say “she’s a little girl who believes ghosts exists” if you also believe in ghosts.
The whole point of the statement is to contrast her to Joyce, and the only thing said is that Joyce believes in angels. Therefore, the contrast is Raidah does not believe in angels.
Any subtlety and nuance you see there is in your own head as there’s not enough given in the statement to assume it.
That said, that doesn’t mean you’re wrong. Raidah is talking to people who know her so the nuance might not need to be spoken out loud to them. But as an audience who wouldn’t know that, the simplest solution is the most likely one: that she doesn’t believe.
“You can believe in an all knowing, all powerful being who created the universe, but you can’t believe in that being having helpers? I’d consider that less religious.”
It’s not necessarily a case of “I can believe in God okay, but angels are too much to accept.” Remember that these things are *factual* in the minds of the people who believe them. There’s nothing irreligious in the position, “Could angels conceivably exist? Yes. Do they in fact exist? No.”
Mind you, there’s 28 million Christians in India. I had to deal with all sorts of people of the Joyce-esque bent who are CONFUSED when they find out it’s one of the largest Christian communities in the world.
I’m thinking specifically about abuses missionaries have pulled in South Asia. Since I’m fairly sure Raidah’s descended from there, I can see her not being super enthused.
Yeah, christian missionaries have a strong reputation on the international scene for being complete monsters with the people they are proselytizing to.
Even the ones doing more humanitarian things like building schools or hospitals sometimes have conditions (like you have to convert, go to a service, listen to them proselytize, etc.) or try to convert people on the side.
Not all religious denominations proselytize in the same way (or even at all for that manner, especially these days) – most Christian missionaries these days either come from, are one step removed from, or are connected to various US Christian organizations, which can sometimes be a little…”special”…in the beliefs they export.
Take it from someone who was born and raised overseas to one such family.
*most Christian missionaries as far as I know, that is
I get that. But if she is really mad about that then she is basically saying that her faith is better. Which is just stupid whatever way you slice it.
Well, if she’s specifically calling out Joyce’s-missionary-brother-with-a-cool-car-that-he-got-by-spending-church-tithings-received-from-the-poor, or people like him, then yeah I feel like Raidah’s mosque – as a member of which Raidah feels free to express sentiments in favor of trans people – is probably better than Joyce’s church, whose members recoiled at the idea of associating with someone they had known for years, once that someone turned out to be a lesbian.
Raidah may have better politics but she’s a shittier person, and I wouldn’t want to go to her mosque or Joyce’s church.
But Raidah has absolutely no idea what kind of missionary work John does or how he got the car. Yes, he is a gross person and deserves to be judged, but she doesn’t know that. She doesn’t know anything about Joyce’s family, she’s just doing everything she can to try and make them sound bad to Jacob.
Raidah surely knows from Jacob that Joyce is a fundagelical. She probably knows exactly what kind of missionary* he is, and the fancy car probably confirmed her suspicions.
*in any event, it’s not like there are that many kinds of missionaries and they all have a lot in common.
OTOH, given Raidah’s general classist attitudes, I might take her comment literally. The “cool car” improves her opinion of the missionary brother.
Being angry about the behavior of fundagelical missionaries overseas is actually a pretty reasonable reaction, especially if you hail from a part of the world they’ve preyed on.
If you mean it’s stupid because she’s somehow insulting christianity in front of Jacob, she’s safe there. As an Episcopalian, he cannot think fundagelicals make christianity look good.
I mean sure, but why is that Joyce’s fault?
Doesn’t need to be in Raidah’s book, she just needs to make Joyce look like a less attractive option.
Exactly, that’s why I don’t like her.
Plus, “apple doesn’t fall far from the tree”. We know Joyce has changed a lot of her viewpoints from her upbringing. Raidah does not – she might well think Joyce still subscribes to many, if not most, of her church’s less-than-savory views.
That makes about as much sense as judging Raidah for things that other Muslims have done or believe.
That’s not near the same scale of equivalency as Raidah hypothetically judging Joyce here for the beliefs of her church, it would probably be significantly closer to judging Raidah for the doctrine from her mosque.
I don’t follow you? You mean if she’s angry about missionaries, why take that out on Joyce? Because Joyce is part of the group and apparently believes the same shit as the missionaries?
But i’m not sure that’s what Raidah is doing: i think she’s either expressing her own opinion of missionaries (which i agree with, despite her being shitty) or she’s trying to bait Joyce into revealing to Jacob just how batshit and nasty Joyce’s religion is, and by association, Joyce herself.
I doubt it wil work because Jacob already knows she has a lot of batshit notions and he knows she’s shed a number of them, and that under it all Joyce is kind.
Unlike Raidah who is not covering herself in glory here.
It’s also probably the same thought process Roz went through in the Infamous Gender Studies Bongo Blowout. Even if Raidah knows Joyce is changing, she doesn’t know how much and does know that for a very long time, Joyce was all-in on every harmful policy her church held. And I don’t blame Raidah for being wary about someone who’s at most six weeks removed from that.
Like wasn’t her last interaction with Joyce her literally bolting across the room to get away from her when she learned she was Muslim. That hardly inspires confidence that one isn’t a bigot.
@Emily: Raidah did imply that, but I think the teleporting away was more due to her being Jacob’s girlfriend. She jumps back and blushes before the mosque is even mentioned. Then she just keeps running away.
I think it’s very likely Radiah’s reaction is that she assumes being missionary is not something which made her brother WEALTHY. So, if she ever met Jordon, her respect would go up/
Then again, that’s my view of the tone of the conversation.
I’m sorry, but I strongly disagree. I’m not areligious, but to me, the idea that a religious group literally pays people to proselytise is extremely distasteful to me- especially when that religious group is such a majority with so much power already. There’s a world of difference between “this person has a faith” and “this person actively tries to convert others to their faith FOR A LIVING”. The two are not comparable imo.
Jordan is a crappy missionary. There’s also missionary works which did massive humanitarian relief efforts–including ones which Westerners condemned because with no resources, they weren’t 1st World hospital levels.
Mind you, I do Jordan props that he isn’t a bigot and married locally. That’s the only props I give him.
Just as a reminder, Jordan isn’t the missionary brother – you’re thinking of Joh. Jordan is the Mystery Brother.
*John
She seemed nuetral-ish until the car was mentioned.
I think she would be ‘okay’ with a missionary, but the cool car makes it seem like he helps a for-profit church. Which might explain her judgemental answer.
Read literally, the missionary with a cool car gets a better response than before the car is mentioned. Which could fit with her general classist approach.
Based on her facial expressions (which I read as “insincerely kind”), I read that line as patronizing. I think she thinks Joyce is incredibly immature and that it is showing in how she speaks about her family (and her professional goals in the previous strip).
And it is a kind of immature thing to point out. A missionary who drives a nice car. Mature people would not care about the car and pointing it out was a little silly (and I suppose could also give negative implications about the type of missionary her brother is, as others have already hashed out).
I don’t think Raidah cares at all about the car, as her family is rich.
It’s pretty bad that Raidah just talked right over Jacob when Dorothy specifically asked to hear from him for a change. I don’t hate her or anything, but that’s not a great way to treat your SO. Unless Jacob likes it that he doesn’t have to engage in conversations himself or something, which I don’t think is true.
Been looking through the comments just to see if anyone else picked up on that. This is actually my least favourite thing about Raidah in this strip. If your SO is asked a question, LET THEM ANSWER IT.
They go back and forth. It’s a conversation. She doesn’t seem to directly interrupt him.
She’s definitely directing the conversation, but it’s probably subtle enough he’s not likely to be much bothered by it.
I’m loving Joyce here. She’s innocent and oblivious, and a little weird, and it’s adorable. A lot of guys find that appealing, maybe Jacob is one of them. She’s definitely the polar opposite of Raidah, who is conniving and manipulative, and probably doesn’t deserve someone as nice as Jacob. I’m sure she’ll get what’s coming to her eventually.
……..she might be ACTING innocent and oblivious, but she’s neither. She knows exactly what Raidah’s doing, and knows that Raidah knows exactly what she’s doing.
Did ya miss the staredown a few days ago?
I didn’t miss it. But come on, Joyce is still clinging to the salt and pepper here. She’s hardly on the same level as Raidah.
Just because a smash-and-grab burglar and a cat-burglar aren’t on the same level doesn’t mean that the smash-and-grab-er is innocent or oblivious.
Joyce is in the wrong here. It doesn’t matter what Raidah does, she can be in the wrong too, but the moment that Joyce went after Jacob in an attempt to break up a (then) seemingly healthy and happy relationship, she crossed the line.
From Joyce’s perspective there’s still nothing to give her an impression that the relationship isn’t healthy. Jacob has talked about how great they are together and that’s it. Anything more is what we the audience has seen, which shouldn’t affect Joyce’s behaviour because she doesn’t know it.
She knows Raidah is a bongo. She deserves to lose Raidah.
I mean she deserves to lose Jacob. Sorry.
That’s not what OP meant, though. She is innocent in her beliefs of how much money is a lot of money, how the jobs of her brothers are socially perceived (especially “blogger”, writer alone has some people sneering), and she is oblivious to Raidah’s condescending tone and passive-agressive attempts to make her look bad.
Or at least apparently oblivious.
The staredown doesn’t necessarily mean that Joyce realizes that raidah is being purposefully rude.
I personally think Joyce knows and is taking it with a grain of salt, but Joyce isn’t exactly the most aware of people’s intentions, usually
I don’t think the staredown meant anything about “purposefully rude”. The staredown was an acknowledgement that Joyce was out to win Jacob and that Raidah had come to defend her prior claim. And that they both knew what the other was doing.
“purposefully rude” is just a tactic in the romantic battle.
Innocent and oblivious? You mean how shes going after Jacob knowing full well hes got a girlfriend, who just happens to be sitting across from her
As for conniving and manipulative, like trying to break up Jacob and Raidah for Sarah or trying to break up Jacob and Raidah for herself
Shes been told in no uncertain terms, by Joe, this a bad idea and Dorothy whose only just been dragged into the middle of this, can see this a bad idea
Someones getting hurt and I hope its Joyce because as much as I like Joyce her behaviour has been pretty shitty and she does not deserve anything good to come out of this
“Going after” Jacob? Has she made a pass at him, propositioned him? She’s literally done nothing so far. Her ultimate intent, which we don’t actually know, is irrelevant.
she’s been flirting with him (which he’s been oblivious to) and her intentions were made pretty clear by http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/sniping/
Especially since earlier in the day on which that strip is set, Joe had out-and-out told Joyce that Sarah was hoping for Joyce to get with Jacob, which Joyce interpreted to mean that Joe thought that she had a chance with Jacob.
I still maintain that friendly flirting while hoping things go in a specific direction is not the same thing as making a pass at someone, because Joyce is also legitimately his friend, and not only for nefarious purposes.
I don’t think Jacob’s oblivious any more. Not entirely. His reaction to her babbling after the gym injury definitely (imo) showed him picking up on her feelings and I feel like the way he was looking at her a few strips back, when she went up to the bar, implied (to me) that yeah, he’s somewhat aware of her feelings- although still oblivious to her intent.
I think it’s more that he’s being affected by her flirting and responding to it, while still being oblivious to what’s going on.
He called in Raidah while going to lunch with Joyce and we saw his thought bubble of pizza while they were having their little glare match.
Man, either Jacob is being dense as a brick fruitcake or he’s preternaturally unflappable. Raidah turned a “let’s talk about you” to “let’s talk about your brother, who’s better than you” without even hiding it.
Honestly? I think he’s probably kind of used to women doing this around him, even if he’s not cognizant of it. People stop just short of turning into a cartoon wolf and going “AWOOOGAH!” on meeting him on a routine basis.
Guys, especially non-assholier-than-thou guys, tend to avoid assuming that women being outwardly friendly to them have any sexual or romantic interest in them. Maybe it’s an over-correction because we know how fucking vile people who assume that shit about anyone that gives them a smile can be, but I wager that’s Jacob’s mindset here.
I mean it could just be that Jacob’s brother is someone really important to him who he looks up to and actually does enjoy talking about. Not everyone feels inferior to and jealous of their more successful siblings.
That’s how I read it.
And that’s a feeling Raidah has weaponized to manipulate him.
So, since there is some talking about Jocelyn going on…
Say you are Trans and your parents love and support.
Would you ask them for a new name? With as much love and care as went I to the other one? Or would you choose it yourself, thus proving the independence?
Just speaking for myself as a trans person, the amount of trans people I know who would trust their parents with the new name is ….. pretty low. Mostly because it’s so rare to have that level of love and support, but even when you do, it often comes with a kind of well meaning but clumsy understanding.
As a parent, I would have a really hard time giving a teenager a name the way I do a child, but I could absolutely contribute to the process.
“If we had known your real gender when you were a baby we would probably have named you X.” (Most expecting parents have brainstormed a few alternative names)
“These are some names I like/thinks suits you/runs in the family. Do you like any of them?”
I AM trans, so it’s not a hypothetical for me. I didn’t, I was more interested in having a name I liked this round than involving them (especially since that’s often done to placate).
Check out Jackson Bird on YouTube! He’s trans and he did ask his mom for help when he was choosing his name. It’s very interesting to hear him talk about it
I ended up picking a name for myself, but I asked my mom for a lot of input during the process. Her view was pretty much exactly what Bagge said above- if it were up to her she would’ve gone with something she and my dad were planning if I’d been born female, and she told me all of those names that she could remember.
But she also wanted me to pick a name for myself at least as much as I wanted to.
For me, the biggest part of picking a new name was trying to come up with something that would feel as special and “me” as the name I’d been going by for my whole life up until that point.
Not trans, but as a parent, I would be fine with whichever route my kid chose. If they wanted my help deciding on a new name, I’d feel honored to be involved, but I also would want them to do what makes them most comfortable and choose a name that they identify with.
I’d presume, from my own experiences, most people in that situation would be a bit of A and a bit of B. I’ve known several trans people that have simply gone the route of closely related names (Patricia becoming Patrick for example). I’ve also know several that, already knowing other names that were considered, chose one of those in spite of being not on good terms with their parents because of transitioning with the hope they could appreciate the gesture should fences ever be mended.
Trans with shitty parents here- although I didn’t realise how shitty my parents were at the time, I didn’t include them at all in the decision. In fact I chose a name that my mother said she hated, and my reaction was “welp, tough.”
But even if the relationship was better… having a new name is, for a lot of trans folk, hugely symbolic and important. It’s part of taking control of who you are, your identity and the way you’re perceived. Taking a new name is immensely empowering. So I doubt many- if any- would 100% leave it up to their parents even with the best relationship. As others have said though, yeah, I can totally see it being a discussion.
I have never known anyone to let their parents choose their new name. BUT i’m changing my legal name to The Boy Name My Parents Would Have Picked so I mean. I’m sure some people would or have. It’s just…definitely not the standard.
Choosing your own name is less an issue of “proving independence” tho and more an issue of. Being a grown person with like, life experience and self-interest and shit and therefore being able to pick something comfortable, as opposed to being a baby that can’t make decisions and has to be referred to as something by the people who will be raising you for the next n years.
Wow, that is a long, convoluted name. Do people call you “The Boy” for short?
I’m not trans, but when I was a teen I went through a long period of time where I identified as genderfluid. I played around a lot with my name as a result. My parents have always been supportive but confused, and my mom’s only hangup is that she felt the names she gave me and my sibling who IS genderqueer were special and significant to her because of the thought and love she put into choosing them. I can’t speak for my sibling on how much this impacted choosing names, but we both go by names at least vaguely derived from our birth names. For me thats a least somewhat out of respect for her and the genuine attachment she had to my birthname. My sibling uses their middle name (my parents gave us both very gender neutral middle names for some reason), but I have a feeling that once they move out of the house they’ll find a name that they feel fits them more, unrelated to birth name. I think they’re only going by that name out of love for our mom? Which isn’t the sole reason they should be going by that name.
Yeah, from the perspective of a parent who would have zero issue with my kid being trans, I think it can be tricky for even the most tolerant parents to be fully comfortable with their kid changing their name.
For me I’d have no issue with them changing their gender, and would respect their wish to change their name, but when you have a kid you associate whatever name you chose with them, and that automatically makes it special. It’s the whole, “They’ll always be that newborn baby to me” emotional deal parents (or at least many/most parents) feel towards their kid. It’d be just as tricky for me whether my kid were trans or not.
I think choosing a similar name (like a kid named Charlie going with Charlotte, or Samantha becoming Sam, etc.) makes it a bit easier for the parents because then the new name still has attachment to all those childhood memories.
But I also understand why some trans people prefer going with a very different name, and I’d learn to deal if that’s the direction my kid decided to go. Their comfort with their life/identity is more important than my attachment to a name.
I think an ideal world for me as a parent would be if we didn’t automatically gender names so if my kid ended up being trans, they could still go by their birth name and have it be a non-issue, but sadly that is not the world we live in yet I guess.
Bless her heart, Dotty is really making an effort to avoid the confrontation.
Crediting Dotty with avoiding confrontation is like thanking water for being wet.
Her backbone has the firmness of a waterbed. She just dumped a guy for a few extra hours of study time. She’s only still sitting there because she doesn’t want Joyce to have to get up to let her out.
But this water is so extraordinarily wet I think it merits mention.
Also, it’s not that she tries to avoid confrontation in general – she deliberately puts herself in harms way to try to pull JOYCE out from the confrontation. That’s a big difference (not that Joyce in any shape or form WANTS out of the confrontation, but that’s another thing altogether).
75% of Dorothy’s entire shtick is avoiding confrontation, something she seems to have picked up from her mother (at least) – it’s why she went to University hoping Danny would forget about her instead of just breaking up with him. One of the very few times she showed a spine was when she made Walky write a thank you note to his parents, because that was the *polite* thing to do.
It’s (part of) why she has no chance to be president, and it’s why she should have no chance in politics. The US already has its share of spineless, non-confrontational, politeness-concerned uselessness in politics – they’re called “every high-profile Democrat that isn’t Maxine Waters.”
But then the 25 remaining percent is taking responsibility and doing the right thing, such as when she finally broke up with Danny, or when she recognised how she’s stringing Wally along.
The result is both endearing and admirable, at lest for me.
15%, tops. The other 10% is scheduling/listing stuff. ;p
She only broke up with Danny because he basically cornered her, and she didn’t break up with Walky because she was stringing him along, she broke up with him because she thought she’d be better off turning relationship-time into study-time.
She can be both endearing and admirable, and certainly one of the more upstanding characters in the comic, but that still doesn’t exclude the fact that she’d make for a terrible politician for a high-profile position (as opposed to, say, an advisory or research position for someone in said position).
She did both. In the break up scene, she came to the realization she’d been treating him badly – pulling him in and pushing him away.
Avoiding confrontation is only a bad thing when the confrontation is necessary.
If you’re not actively trying to avoid confrontations that accomplish nothing and are likely to just end in a screaming match and damaged relationships, then you’re a shitty person, and would be an even worse leader.
For fuck’s sake, our current fucking president is a perfect example of why avoiding confrontation is a valuable skill for a leader. Every god damn day he’s starting some completely pointless fight where the best case result is that he ends up wasting time complaining about some celebrity instead of finding new ways to fuck up the economy and/or be cruel to women and minorities.
The idiotic fucking “AVOIDING CONFRONTATION MEANS YOU’RE WEAK” mentality is why that orange fuck is starting trade wars, alienating our allies, and putting babies in god damn prison camps
Dorothy isn’t fucking spineless, she just (1) has the ability to recognize when a fight or argument isn’t worth it, and (2) would prefer to be gentle or at least civil when confronting someone is actually necessary.
Don’t you fucking dare tell me we wouldn’t be better off with a president who had those qualities.
I mostly agree with this but I also think it depends on the stakes of what’s going on. Low stakes things can merit low stakes confrontation (which can be as simple as ‘dude, c’mon, don’t be like that’) whereas actual high stakes stuff definitely requires a ‘dude, seriously, DO NOT be like that’.
Oh how’d I know the most full throated apologist for Dorothy’s personality would be you, Fart Captor.
Look, person, a president needs to be capable of standing up for themselves and their interests. Negotiation and compromise is only possible when you have a position. Dorothy doesn’t have a position. She barely has a belief system. She’s the least self-actualized person in a strip that has people like Danny and Jacob.
I’ll fucking dare tell you what I want to, and that’s that a President who can’t fight will get devoured by the sharks that can. And that’s why Obama now watches Donald Trump take his whole legacy apart.
o.0
that… that doesn’t even make any sense.
Also, wtf are you talking about? “Dorothy doesn’t have a position”? On what exactly? We know more about her political beliefs than any character in the strip except maybe Roz. Or is “barely having a belief system” a shot at her being an atheist? (and if so, fuck you)
Dorothy doesn’t fucking need apologists. Her biggest flaw right now is that she needs a work/life balance that will let her pursue her ambitions without burning herself out. Dorothy might not be terribly aggressive, but she’s shown she’s able to stand her ground when she needs to.
We have yet to see her face a serious situation where she just ran away or failed to act. She’s allowed to prioritize her long term goals over sex and romance. The fact that you see that as a lack of backbone says a lot about how you view women with ambition (and the idea that relationships are something women can opt out of for whatever the fuck reason they want, not some kind of contractual obligation which can only be terminated without penalty under a limited set of conditions)
I’ve never seen someone *intentionally* fall for the rope-a-dope-in fact, engineer their own rope-a-doping-with such vigor, such determination, such bloody-mindedness.
WWI Trench Warfare comes to mind.
Shout out to Passchendaele
Are you referring to only one of Joyce and Raidah, or both? Because I feel like this could turn quickly into a mutually assured destruction scenario.
Raidah-she’s going on the attack, in an incredibly conspicuous and obvious sort of way. Joyce is not only completely unfazed by any of her peacocking, she’s managing to reply in a way that increasingly boosts her profile and provokes Raidah into doubling down in an increasingly self destructive cycle.
Yep. Attacking Joyce is not going to help Raidah.
Yeah. I get that feeling as well. Like, she’s trying to punch Joyce who’s just ignoring the jabs because she doesn’t realize they’re in a boxing ring.
It’s like watching someone try to punch fog.
Up until last strip I would have thought Joyce was just innocent, but I don’t think so any longer. I think she knows exactly what Raidah is doing, and her own lack of reaction is a measured, deliberate counter move.
Joyce has matured THAT much. She is now that sure of herself, that confident and that prepared to play Raidah’s bullshit alpha bongo game.
Joyce has matured into a very scary young lady quickly – I think both Sarah and Dorothy will become very nervous about this development very soon.
Nah, this is a game a lot of girls in heavily conservative religious places learn WELL. Passive aggressive sparring matches are a THING from what I’ve heard. So Raidah taking passive aggressive shots trying to get her to snap back? She can just as passive aggressively, smugly NOT react and play innocent.
So… newfound maturity and confidence coupled with lifelong lessons in passive aggressive combat.
Yup. Scary.
Can speak to it, yes. I am trans but was raised as a girl in a heavily conservative space.
When you’re not allowed to openly express hurt, anger, disgust, sadness or any other negative emotion, those emotions don’t go away. You just find a socially acceptable way to get your message across. Passive aggression is big. My mother is terrible for it – rather than telling you she thinks you’re wrong, she’ll just repeat the same question ad nauseum until your answer changes, and if you get annoyed with her for it, she’ll pretend she was just making sure, for example.
In those situations, healthy means of conflict resolution (standing up for yourself, calling out someone treating you badly, learning to use the word no, etc) are penalized heavily. I was always the “difficult” one because my autism made me too direct and unable to pick up on passive aggression at the time.
Raidah is less transparent about it than my mother. But suffice to say passive-aggressive needling is something I fully expect Joyce is well-versed in.
Afterthought: Look always for the weaponization of compliments. I fully expect Joyce’s parents are going to start in on that when she begins to fall out more with them – “You were always so responsible” – responsible here means compliant – “what happened?” or “You’ve always been the good one.” or whatever. The purpose of weaponized compliments is to serve the purpose of the carrot – it’s like love-bombing only the string is more visibly attached. The message sent is clear: You can get praise and acceptance if you return to the way you were.
I wouldn’t even really call her more mature or confident. She’s always been confident and proud of herself – she’s just got a new set of beliefs to be confident in. And well….I’d hardly call Joyce mature, really. She’s very childish still. But the passive aggressive arena isn’t really the place for that so.
But if the point isn’t to faze Joyce, but to highlight some things to Jacob?
She might be doing a little better.
Now, if she’s really misread Jacob’s ambitions then this will completely backfire, but if she hasn’t then she’s nicely set up Joyce as a sweet naive kid who isn’t going anywhere, like the rest of her family. Nothing wrong with her, but not a match for an ambitious lawyer-to-be like Jacob.
I think that’s EXACTLY where she’s going with this.
And honestly, it might work. Jacob doesn’t judge Joyce’s goals for herself – but he DOES want the big, prestigious career. The ‘glamourous’ life, as Raidah oh so condescendingly put it. He wants the career to be on par with Harrison, who he idolizes so much, and make his family proud. Joyce’s desired quiet family life with the lowing paying low prestige job isn’t a bad thing, but it’s not what Jacob wants. Someone who’s supportive of him and in an equally prestigious job? Yeah, that sounds more like Jacob’s speed. It’s why Raidah is the perfect checklist girlfriend for him.
Exactly. And remember that Jacob has no idea that Raidah’s doing this intentionally and since she’s his girlfriend, he’s likely interpreting what she’s saying pretty generously.
Plus I’m getting the impression he’s pretty oblivious to subtext, so …
Come on Raidah, let Jacob speak for himself. Dorothy didn’t ask you to talk about his brother.
Can YOU imagine living up to that, Raidah? Yesterday I thought, “Yeah, that’s kinda mean,” but today she actually made me cringe.
Also, I’m betting that Jordan is either a porn star or is involved with gangs/drugs. Considering the level of sexual repression in the Brown family, it’s likely the former.
Why not both?
My bets are porn, gay porn, enthusiast of another religion (anywhere from ‘obnoxiously zealous former Christian White Dude atheist’ to Mormon are options here), and for an outside bet, webcomic artist. (Pornlord optional.)
Married a Catholic girl and converted. THE HORROR.
Given that we know the Browns have gone through a number of churches over the years trying to find the right one “wrong brand of Christian” seems a pretty likely option. Which means a range of possibilities from “Too liberal/borderline not even Christian in the view of his parents” to “Too conservative even for the Browns.”
My bet has long been on the so conservative that even Toedad would say “loosen up a bit”.
Yeah, the kind of church where women wearing pants is scandalous, and men having hair longer that a military recruit is suspect.
Jordan has an opposite-sex roommate and only goes to church on the big holidays.
:O
Porn actor seems too obvious for Jordan. I think he owns a marijuana dispensary.
“420BLAZEIT GET REKT NERDS”
Blaze it, for the Lord 🙏
Blaze be with you.
Given the level of conservative Joyce’s parents are, there’s a rather wide range of options for what Jordan could be. High school science teacher at a secular school? Athiest blogger? Planned Parenthood doctor? Avenue Q puppeteer?
I was thinking that too. Maybe he is a health teacher who covers sex ed, a legal advocate for LGBTQ+ people, a counselor who helps teenage runaways, including pregnant teenage women…basically *anything* of which Joyce’s parents wouldn’t approve. He doesn’t necessarily have to be a porn star or a druggie.
My personal bet has always been Rabbi or Monk. Because that would really make Carol flip out.
My bet is on porn being related entirely because I bet it’s related to something DW does given what he’s done with Joyce and Jocelyne.
I would actually love to see Jordan the Secular Puppeteer. (Hell, Disney Muppets are probably too vulgar for the Browns. Sesame Street could be too secular for them.)
Now I’m picturing Jordan as special effects specialist who does amazing non-digital effects for horror and science fiction movies.
I’m suspecting it’ll be a fake out and he’s a white supremacist. I.e. it’s PAPA BROWN who turned against Jordan and not Mama Brown.
Nah, Hank still considers him a good kid. If Hank turned him out, I don’t think he’d say that. Mama Brown also says it happened by them not ‘squeezing hard enough’ so its something they consider a disciplinary failure on their end.
My guess is they didn’t cut him off – Jordan had enough of THEM.
While I think neither Joyce nor Raidah come off well in this situation AT ALL, I’ve got a fair amount of sympathy for Joyce in this strip because I have had many people belittle me exactly the way Raidah is belitting Joyce.
(I’m assuming that Raidah is being sarcastic, not honestly interested here – the visual cues, text, and bold-faced words seem to suggest snarkniess.)
Meanwhile, Joyce thinks she’s bragging about her family (and maybe showing off a little), but Raidah is being completely disdainful and trying to make it clear to everyone how “pathetic” Joyce and her life is.
Note: I may be over-personalizing because this has happened to me so often. Some sample exchanges from my life:
Snarky person: How did you do on the test?
Me: I got a B+
Snarky person: Oh. Well, that’s a (pause) *good* grade…
Snarky person: Where are you going to college? I’m going to Harvard.
Me: I’m going to Boston University.
Snarky person: WOW, BU. I’ve heard they have some decent departments there. I actually picked them as my safety school.
Me: I love the dress you’re wearing tonight.
Snarky person: Thanks so much. Yours is nice too. It’s SO unique and unusual. I mean, it’s not really my style, but it’s very…nice.
Me: (Giving my perspective on an assigned reading in class)
Snarky person: Well, while that’s *interesting,* in the past twenty years literary criticism has really advanced and moved past simplistic dated interpretations.
(I think I need chocolate and pictures of baby goats now.) 🙁
Ew, people. (Though I could see me saying something like the dress one sincerely, tone is everything and there’s a world of difference between that and ‘I couldn’t pull that off but you look great in it!’ or similar sentiments.)
Yeah – tone doesn’t always come through in text. That’s why I said it’s possible Raidah is being sincere. However, I really doubt it, especially given Willis’ visuals.
Trust me, the person who said this to me was NOT saying “I couldn’t pull that off but you can.” I have said some version of that statement to friends and family members and honestly meant it. Apply snark filter +10 to each of the Snarky People above. 😛
I think that kind of meanness is the worst, because it’s so hard to counter (at least for me). If someone flat-out tells me, “I think you’re too stupid to be in this class and I don’t like you,” that is hurtful, but at least I can flat-out tell them to fuck off. If they’re being snarky and smarmy, it’s still hurtful, but I am going to look crazy if I get angry. (“What’s wrong with you? I was just pointing out something to *help* you understand the reading…”)
As a side-note, now that I’m kind-of grown up and working in my chosen field, I can say that there is less of this kind of snarkiness. But it’s still there and is more insidious and harder to counter. Poot.
I figured as much and reiterate: ew, people.
I know the feeling. My personal experience is along the lines of this:
Snide: Oh you ran out of money to finish your degree at that private university and you didn’t want to take a loan? That’s ok, plenty of people get degrees from ‘community colleges for work’.
I teach at a community college and I will put my students and the quality of education they receive up against any private university, any day.
In fact, I think that in many cases you can get a *better* education at a community college or public 4-year school. A lot of times the professors choose those schools because they are really committed to education and helping everyone receive a quality education, whether they are wealthy or not (that is the reason why I teach where I do). Professors at “fancy” schools may want the “prestige” that goes along with saying they teach there and don’t really care much about the students or education in general. (I went to graduate school with some of those people.)
Also, the student experience may be better at a 2-year school because, overall, most students *want* to be there. They may be paying their own way, or looking to advance in their careers, or (like you) may not want to go into the massive debt that comes along with most private university degrees in the U.S. They are overall not privileged, entitled kids whose parents are paying their way and who sleep or party through class because it’s “only daddy’s money, anyway.” *snark* A classroom full of engaged, committed students is, IMHO, a much better learning atmosphere than a classroom full of students who don’t care or, worse, feel they have the right to tell the teacher how to run the class or what grades to give them because “My family pays X amount of dollars for me to be here.”
(That last is not a hypothetical. I once had a friend who adjuncted at a very expensive private college and students *literally* said those things to her.)
Hell, my mom is a doctor of clinical psychology and a licensed forensic psychologist with more career experiences and accomplishments than I can list here, and she started out at a community college! Your classmates are just being snobs and you can laugh at them when they are declaring bankruptcy because of student loan debt and/or finding out that in the real world, an expensive degree from a “prestigious” school is not necessarily a guarantee of anything.
Thankfully everyone in my family has had a much better reaction. There’s was more of a “They were going to charge you THAT MUCH for classes? Yeah, you definitely made the right choice.” Put snide, snobby people who work at the same place but in a “higher prestige” role are real assholes sometimes. And I’ll definitely agree on Community Colleges being a better experience. Drunk roommates who are English majors who can fall back on their parents successful medium sized business are not conducive to a learning environment.
I’m really glad you have your family’s support, even if your former classmates are being spoiled douchecanoes. 🙂
The cost of a college education in this country is *insane,* especially because it’s getting harder and harder to get even a semi-professional job without a college degree. And non-loan financial aid (like scholarships, grants, and work-study programs) is fast disappearing.
Total U.S. student loan debt it almost 1.5 trillion dollars. Let that sink in for a second.
1.5. TRILLION. DOLLARS.
That’s more than the GNP of entire COUNTRIES. 😰😡
It is. In fact, there are only 8 or 9 countries (depending on source) in the world with a GDP larger than that.
Are we older yet?
You’re older than you’ve ever been and now you’re even older, and now you’re older still.
On the other hand, you’re also younger now than you will ever be again.
Today is the last day of that first part of your life
TIME!
is marching ON!
and TIME!
… is still marching ON!
Great. I use TMBG to get rid of earworms. What to I do now? Move on to NO MEANS NO or BIRDHOUSE IN MY SOUL. I’ll be stuck ina TMBG loop all morning.
Umm, does anyone else feel slightly…weirded out by the way Raidah’s talking about Harrison? It just feels a little off that she seems so focused on her SO’s brother.
I think she’s trying to get a rise out of Joyce. She’s assuming that, being the kind of Christian she is, Joyce will find fighting for transgender rights abhorrent.
She’ll soon realise that she’s wrong, and try a different tack.
Is Joyce even aware yet that transgender people exist (other than whatever her church might have told her)? She knows Carla has her own room but she doesn’t know why, and she thinks her sister Jocelyne is “Joshua”.
I mean, honestly? Doubtful. We expect her to come around quickly once she finds out a la Becky, but Carla isn’t anywhere near close enough friends yet to tell the clearly-early-stages-recovering-fundie what trans people are, and Jocelyn’s not ready to break ties from the rest of the family yet. She could have found out things online when she was looking up LGBT-friendly scripture interpretations, but if she missed the Ruth and Naomi one, I doubt she was looking hard enough to get a solid crash course on LGBT issues outside that.
Oh, I’m sure she knows about the term transgender. That bathroom nonsense a while ago didn’t pop up out of nowhere and I’d not be surprised if her church was ALL UP IN IT.
Do we… even know what Becky’s mentality towards trans* people is? I wouldn’t go “lesbian therefore informed about and cool with trans folk”, personally. I mean, she didn’t even know that bisexuality was a “thing”, so I’m honestly not leaning towards her knowing more than Joyce. And I hope she would be chill once informed but you sadly can’t assume that.
TERFs are mostly lesbians, so Becky being a lesbian means less than nothing about how accepting she’ll be of trans people.
Personally, I am thinking Becky will follow the Becky pattern: “Pfft, that doesn’t exist – wait it does?! Wow, people are weird. I don’t get it but whatever floats yer boat.” and thereafter radically accepting. Because that’s Becky.
Joyce OTOH I think is going to have another moral panic because that’s Joyce. But she loves her siblings enough I think Jocelyn might wind up being the straw that breaks the back of her faith.
Yeah, Joyce will flip out and be confused and say hurtful things, but she’ll come around – like she has with every other one of these kinds of issues, because people are more important to Joyce.
Except in one circumstance: If it’s Jocelyn and in the midst of conflict with her parents, in which case it’ll be full on righteous fury from the start.
Yeah agreed. In conflict, Joyce prioritizes the wellbeing of those she cares about and feels are being attacked.
Then again, between Jocelyn and her parents… I wouldn’t put it past Joyce to freeze if she’s surprised by Jocelyn’s gender. If she knows ahead of time, I see her going full righteous fury. If she’s surprised, I see her freezing in shock – we’ve seen before that Joyce very much has fight-or-freeze in response to adrenaline. She doesn’t seem to have much of a flight response – and typically when she’s frozen, it’s because the situation is completely outside of anything she’s ever entertained as a possibility before. She froze when Ross pointed a gun at her for example.
Seeing the favorite get into a blow up fight with the parents over gender identity would probably fall in the category of “completely outside anything she’s ever entertained as a possibility before.” And I can see it really messing with her mind if she did freeze.
I half-think the reason she’s interested in Jacob to begin with, or at least willing to seriously pursue him, is that she wants a contact there. Networking is everything, after all. And if Jacob is attached to her, he needs to be at least as glamorous as she is.
It’s one of the methods that she controls Jacob – “If you don’t achieve the same absurd levels of success as your brother then you are intrinsically a failure; let me help you!”
Jacob already wanted to live up to his brother’s reputation. We can’t pin that one on Raidah. Regardless, it’s definitely something she brings up a lot – in this case, to get him to see he and Joyce want very different things professionally, and before when she was turning Jacob’s offer to fool around down.
We can’t hold it against Raidah that he does. She however seems to have grabbed onto it to use as a lever to manipulate him. That we can hold against her.
Don’t ever let the Raidahs of the world know anything about you.
Yeahthis.
We can’t hold it against Raidah that Jacob feels inferior to his brother. We can and do hold it against her that she is stroking that insecurity to her own ends.
I’m not even sure it’s “feels inferior”. You don’t have to be insecure to look up to an older sibling and want to emulate them. Especially when Harrison has to be good deal older – probably close to 10 years at least, if he’s a full-fledged lawyer with a significant role on a case like that.
Oh absolutely. She’s working that desire to emulate his awesome big brother and make his family proud like its her JOB and that is absolutely something to be criticized.
I’m waiting for Jordan to be absurdly inoffensive but not toeing extremely close to the church/party line and that’s why every member of Joyce’s family is being weird about it.
Like, he’s a pharmacy tech or something but his not being a missionary had Hank and Carol sweating bullets.
Probably the most likely option, all told. (Except maybe ‘religion is the opiate of the masses’ atheist. He doesn’t appear to be particularly interested in reaching out to the family, but we have a very narrow perspective here. And as far as we know, Jocelyn hasn’t reached out to him, which could mean a lot of things, but again the narrow perspective means that’s not given as true.)
My guess isn’t that he’s not interested, but rather that he’s been cut off.
When I first re-came out (I had come out as a teen and they thought it was a phase), I was told in no uncertain terms to stay away from my sister’s kids. So I visited only once a year for several years. They’ve begun unbending because they’ve realized my sexual orientation will outlast their bigotry and for all their other faults, they do view having me in their life as more important than their bigotry. So, there’s that.
Now whether that will hold if/when I ever come out on the gender front to them… who knows.
Yeah, I’m just wondering if that cut off has prevented him from contacting Jocelyn as well. Again, we have such a limited perspective we don’t know either way. Doesn’t help that we don’t know how much older Jordan is than Jocelyn, either, or WHEN the estrangement began, which could both contribute to whether or not they’ve tracked each other down or tried.
Joyce’s parents have literally cut off Jordan from contact with the rest of their family. (To the extent that they can — presumably they no longer have that power over Jocelyn.)
Whatever Jordan has said or done or been has to be something that would make Hank and Carol cut off one of their own children. When you consider that Carol has said she would die for Joyce, cutting off Jordan must have resulted from something drastic (from Carol’s point of view).
It’s also possible he cut THEM off.
Okay, the mouseover text really made me laugh out loud, today.
Is Harrison the most realistic millennial/gen x name in this comic yet?
did jordan marry a catholic or something
My money says Raidah brought up Jacob’s brother’s work on the transgender rights case in hopes of setting off a nasty reaction from Joyce to make her look bad in Jacob’s eyes. Jacob must have told Raidah that Joyce grew up in a regressive church, but he must have neglected to tell her that Joyce’s best friend is a lesbian.
Making Joyce look even better because it shows Joyce is growing and choosing compassion over dogma.
It’s been, at most, six or seven weeks since Joyce believed, unquestioningly, everything that her church taught her. With the sliding timescale and this being conservative-leaning Indiana, Joyce’s church was quite likely involved in the whole anti-trans stuff that got kicked up a notch a few years back…and with Joyce having no idea about Carla, Jocelyne not being out to her, and Joyce not being in Alex’s class, Joyce may very well have no idea about trans people beyond what her church has taught her (“they’re all waiting to assault you in your bathrooms!” etc). She hasn’t yet, to my knowledge, had an epiphany about them the way she did when Becky showed up – I’m betting that’s most likely to take place only if and when Jocelyne comes out to her.
Being okay with gay people (or even being a gay people)is super different from accepting trans people, let alone cherishing them enough to really prove Raidah wrong
Sad to say but there are people who identify as gay who are staunchly anti-trans- basically for the same reason you get some insecure straight guys who are angry about trans women. “I’m into the same sex and this person was once not considered that and icky and cooties and it makes me ANGRY!”
I mean, I don’t know how common that is. I suspect a lot of it is more low-key “well I don’t want to date them”. But yeah, it’s out there.
There’s also TERFs, who are worse because they’re that kind of bigotry only organized and acting with planned malevolence.
Things TERFs have done:
*Partnered with groups that advocate the death penalty for LGBTQIA people, bonding over their mutual hatred of trans people
*Supported bathroom bills
*Outed trans people
Could go on but yeah. I won’t mention She Who Shall Not Be Named here but there is a certain TERF who will show up with the initials CB who is particularly awful if you google them. The reason I am not mentioning her by name here is she literally googles her own name a lot and has, does, and will come after any site host who has comments critical of her – she’s a big fan of SLAPP suits.
Sooo yeah, short version: Being LGBQ or A means nothing about whether you’ll be trans-inclusive.
I can’t tell if you (Jason and ischemgeek) are trying to build on what I said or correct me. If it’s the latter these are what I meant, I just didn’t expand on it at the time
For my part, build on what you said. Ischemgeek 100% reads the same to me. 🙂
yeahthis. ^^
Not correcting – more trying to expand?
Sorry had a damn stressful day sooo… longstoryshort had to face a phobia and yeah. Did the thing, didn’t puke or run screaming out of the room or hit anyone, did cry and pass out, still calling it a win.
sounds like a win to me! *jedi hugs* that shit fucking sucks.
Yeah, and there’s also a huge difference between being supportive of gay people and supportive of a gay person. Which, not to say that Joyce isn’t the former, but simply her having a lesbian as her best friend does not automatically mean she’s accepting or even tolerant of the LGBT community at large. Though we as the audience know Joyce’s feelings towards the gay community, that doesn’t mean people in-comic know it. After all, someone who doesn’t know Joyce that well could see Becky as being an ‘exception’ in her eyes, rather than proof of Joyce’s opinions changing.
I am now older, so do I get to learn what Jordan does?
Maybe.
Surprise: Jordan is also one of Robin’s other secret siblings.
Nah, his name doesn’t start with an R.
Have I ever mentioned that I’m surprised that Willis’s kids don’t both have names starting with the same letter?
His wife probably just stared at him in silence as he tried to suggest matching pairs.
totally offtopic, but I have netflix now, and I’ve watched Nanette – what should I watch next? 🙂
Rocket Men
hrm. that’s not available. I guess canadian netflix is still behind on content.
I’m also annoyed that it doesn’t have Babylon 5; now we’ll have to dig up old files that theoretically exist on some device somewhere in this house… (but hey, at least I’m not fighting with the corrupted ds9 dvds that we paid good money for only 7 years ago 😛 )
The disastrous life of Saiki K
Given who Joyce’s parents are, that probably means that Jordan has left their faith and gone on to do something pretty startlingly different.
Maybe he became a Buddhist?
As someone who ended up an areligious Christian/Buddhist mix with plenty of friends raised fundie who went pagan and Buddhist, I could see that being at least as scandalous as coming out gay to them.
Jordan’s part of some ultra-secret military or intelligence agency special ops unit. The Browns don’t like it because they don’t trust secular governments. They only know about it because they were inadvertent witnesses to some operation Jordan was involved in, and can’t tell Joyce because it’s classified.
Alright, that’s one I hadn’t heard before.
He’s in SEMME?
I don’t think there are dangerous aliens in this universe. I was thinking along the lines of some part of the CIA’s Directorate of Operations, or a military outfit like Delta Force. Of course this being fiction it would probably be a made up one.
When I’m older.
Come on, I already have plenty of white hair. I don’t NEED to be older.
I suspect the author needs to wait until he’s older before he tries to tackle it ;D
…does Joyce realize how awful Raidah is being?
is jordan gay?
Porn star, maybe?
You know, we have been told one thing about Jordan: he and his parents don’t always see eye to eye, but he’s still a good kid.
So it would seem Jordan has left the ways of humanity behind and now lives on a farm as a goat. I’m not sure all that entails, but you can see how such religious parents might be reluctant to discuss that kink with their daughter.
Replace “goat” with “horse”, and you have the book ending to Gulliver’s Travels. That always really weirded me out, reading the unabridged edition when I was younger.
I would just like to point out that, while “missionary” is low-paying, it is historically pretty high class, as poor people couldn’t typically afford to go traipsing off to be missionaries. Missionaries also have to speak a foreign language, which often took several years of university training.
Many missionaries became professors due to their knowledge of different countries.
EG, Sidney Gulick, missionary to Japan, 1860-1945, held degrees from Dartmouth, Oberlin, and Yale. He taught at Doshisha University in Kyoto and lectured at the Kyoto Imperial University.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Gulick
A childhood friend of mine hails from an old missionary family; she attended the London School of Economics and now works for the UN.
Harvard University itself was originally founded to train ministers, which is not that far off.
While we’re at it, since very few people are defending Raidah, I’d like to note that it is entirely possible that she is not being evil. I am not the best judge of facial expressions, but she looks like she is genuinely smiling at the beginning of the comic. Maybe Jacob’s brother is just an interesting topic of conversation and she actually admires him. She doesn’t know much about Joyce’s family before asking, so she’s not purposefully setting things up to make Joyce look bad.
Since Raidah isn’t a main cast character and it’s been a while since we’ve had much of a scene with her, I can’t remember too much of what she’s like, and we haven’t seen much from within her point of view. Which means… we don’t really have a whole lot of information about her. She might have a good side.
For example, if we only saw Sarah’s behavior from the outside–the side her friends saw–we’d see someone who got her roommate expelled because she was taking her mother’s death badly. Until we know more of Raidah’s side of things, or see more of her, I’m comfortable with entertaining the possibility that she has a good side.
Her last appearance before this lunch was chatting with her cronies about Joyce sniffing around her man. She raced down her as soon as she heard about Jacob and Joyce having lunch. She had that nice little staredown with Joyce when she showed up.
She’s not just chatting here.
“I don’t want someone flirting with my boyfriend” is a very normal and not-evil reaction.
If the situation were reversed and Raidah were purposefully flirting with Joyce’s boyfriend, and Joyce showed up, concerned, we’d think Joyce was pretty much in the right.
Absolutely. I read your other post as saying she wasn’t being hostile here – genuinely smiling, not purposefully making Joyce look bad, etc.
That she’s concerned is very normal. I do think she’s being pretty ugly about how she’s expressing that concern – both here and when she was talking to her gang about it.
very few people are defending raidah because it’s not a particularly defensible position. that stuff you can’t remember (and/or haven’t noticed), it’s in the comments, and it’s pretty damning.
Stuff Raidah did in the past, however, is not stuff that is happening right now, and people are judging the current situation.
So far she’s asked about Jacob’s brother, said something nice about him, and asked about Joyce’s family. “So, Joyce, do you have any brothers or sisters?” is not exactly A-level evil.
Shockingly, when people judge a situation, they often consider what the people involved have said and done in the past and what that reveals about motivation for their current actions.
Are you really asking that we judge each and every day’s strip with no reference to any previous strips? I mean, you’re even ignoring the pointed comments about Joyce’s financial prospects from yesterday’s strip at this very same lunch.
Suddenly, I’m wondering if Raidah is really interested in Harrison and is trying to turn Jacob into a carbon copy so she can have one too.
Yeah, I’ve been reading that line in a few days. I think she’s TRYING to make it sound friendly and competitive for Jason, but really saying ‘can you even imagine living up to something even acceptable to associate with jacob?’ to Joyce, and aldo like she’s saying Jacob is going to have to try topping that and then look how cool her boyfriend ans later convenient husband or associate will be.
Ignore typos, sleepy and on phone thatwrites slowerthan I type
Now it’s morning and that firat Jason should say Jacob
You know, it had been me policy to hold judgement on Raidah until this point. We hadn’t seen her much when she wasn’t around Sarah, and treaty your enemies poorly is to be expected. But this is just the worst. I was willing to let Raidah show me some further layer of complexity, but instead she gives me this. Valley girl shit that anyone would have seen through in the seventh grade, let alone in college.
Joyce is also very much her enemy.
I wasn’t fond of Raidah from the little bit we’ve seen, but my distaste for her is growing rapidly. I’m getting the feeling that she is fundamentally just not a nice person. Or has a very narrow definition of ‘nice’ that only applies to her privileged few.
The reason Raidah and Sarah are “enemies” is part of the reason you’re not supposed to like Raidah.
Nah, the fallout between Raidah and Sarah was very understandable. Not being able to watch it play out in front of us I find it very easy to believe either sides version.
That whole situation was a giant shade of grey especially considering how shit Sarah is at not coming across as wholly self interested to people who don’t know her really well.
“Definitely the best kind of missionary” is top level response to “he’s a missionary with a cool car.” I’m not fond of Raidah, but kudos for that one, at least.
That depends on if she’s being sarcastic.
It’s what I got from the emphasis on the “definitely”.
Other people have commented on Raidah bringing up Harrison, but yeah. That’s a big thing, isn’t it? I find it quite disturbing how eager Jacob is to be like his brother and, worse, how quick Raidah is to press on that. She really doesn’t seem to be in the relationship for the relationship- and same for Jacob, he’s with her because of a literal checklist according to him and she backs that up, saying she’s what he needs for the future.
But more to the point, there seems to be something going on with regards to Harrison. It doesn’t seem to be resentment, but the mere mention of him seems to drive Jacob, which hugely concerns me. He seems to me to be the most likeable character to date, and I want to see him with minimum baggage and maximum happiness.
Unfortunately, this is Dumbing of Age. A baggage-free and emotionally-healthy main cast character is extremely unlikely. Heck, as a rule, even the secondary-level characters have their serious issues!
Riley, Sierra, Other Rachel, Other Rachel’s gf whose name I can’t bothered to look up, the tattooed arm guy (I want to say Amir?) and HIS bf, and precious cinnamon roll Agatha seem to be of the very few that avoided the baggage claim.
This is, of course, a necessity of narration. “This person was extremely well-adjusted and moved through their life without shenanigans” does not make for a compelling story.
Dina’s got a pretty good head on her shoulders and is largely free of drama that isn’t other people’s that she involves herself in of her own choice.
Joyce is 18 how much older does she needs to be.
How long can they put if off?
. . . Is Jordan a pornlord?
Hm.
Noting that it was Raidah who brought up the transgender laws thing… I wonder if she’s trying to get Joyce to do a conservative Christian freakout in front of Jacob so Jacob won’t find her quite so cute anymore?
Raidah is Muslim and I’m certain she’s had her share of Barbie blonde evangelicals freaking out at her before. If I had to hazard a guess, she knows Jacob looks up to his brother, therefore she can guess he supports his brother’s ethics and is progressive. She knows Joyce was brought up in a religious conservative household. She’s seen Joyce have freakouts before (the dress being too low-cut).
I don’t think her bringing up the trans stuff was a mistake. If I’m right, let’s expect to see more of it as she tries to find the right angle to set Joyce off.
(Also, props to Willis for not only seeing but portraying well the way cis feminists sometimes weaponize trans narratives to their own ends. Well done – I’ve seen more than a few cis feminists bring up trans issues at strategic times to try to provoke a freak-out that would justify out-grouping someone they don’t like).
Raidah’s a fantastic character – IMO she’s an excellent foil for Dorothy. They’re both ambitious, they’re both driven, both going to law school. The main difference is Raidah knows what is going to get her ahead in life, and knows for damn sure that’s not academics – it’s human connections and networking. Dorothy is still sheltered enough to think that grades matter at all for anything past getting your first post-uni job (Protip: they don’t. Networking is way more important) and that she won’t have to compromise herself to get where she wants to go.
Raidah’s also a great foil for Sarah, although Sarah’s differences has to do more with her difficulty in making human connections. Dorothy is good at making connections, she just de-prioritizes it in favor of academics. Sarah on the other hand is just bad at social. Dorothy can learn to reassess her priorities from Raidah, but Sarah needs to watch how Raidah gets most of their friend group wrapped around her finger – even the people who don’t like Raidah wind up doing what she wants them to do. That’s a really good skill in a lawyer, especially any type of lawyer who wants to end up doing trials (thought I’d suspect Raidah wants to go business law as opposed to one of the disciplines that gets more trial time because that has higher status and more money).
I want to see more Dorothy-Raidah interactions because I think Dorothy could learn a lot from Raidah. I’d like to see more Sarah-Raidah interactions because it’d be nice to see Sarah recognize Raidah has a strength where she has a weakness and work on it accordingly.
To be clear, I don’t approve of what Raidah is doing here, but Raidah has her shit together far more than most of the audience (and cast for that matter) gives her credit for. She’s not a great person, to be sure, but she is formidable. As they currently are, Raidah would have much better odds of eventually making first female president than Dorothy, if she were a white Christian instead of a brown Muslim. The really scary thing is, I wouldn’t put it past Raidah to have figured that out and changed her ambitions accordingly.
For Jacob’s part… I feel bad for him. It’s rough if you have an older sibling who is so obviously a super-achiever. I’m guessing Jacob has always gone through being what, for any other kid, would be considered a star student – member of the football team, good grades, genuinely helpful, etc. But because of his older brother, he sees himself as lacking – since no matter what he does, his brother did it first and better.
And immediately after she brings up transgender issues, she dismisses Joyce’s transgender sister for being a blogger. Not that any of them know she’s transgender, but it’s a clear signal to the readers that Raidah’s probably a Roz.
I see more Carol in Raidah than Roz. Roz isn’t cunning and calculating the way Raidah is. Roz knows how to play the manipulation game, but she seems incapable of taking the long view, and she’s not ruthless enough.
Which probably explains why and how Joyce saw through her provocation and refused to take the bait so well. She’s had a lot of practice with her mother.
This seems a weird accusation. Raidah is dismissive of the blogger, not of the transwoman, because “blogger” does not match the achievements she or Jacob have idealized for themselves.
Also, reminder that, as far as we know, Roz walks that walk.
Yeah I think you’re right – Raidah is dismissive of blogger. She has no way of knowing Jocelyn is trans.
That said, I think she let the subject get changed from trans stuff because Joyce didn’t take the bait. I think Raidah is now trying to figure out how to provoke a reaction.
Dorothy is going for Political Science. Is that law school as well?
Dorothy’s long game is law.
In North America, most professional schools (engineering excepted for some reason) require an undergrad degree before you can apply. Law typically requires undergrad in science, engineering, criminology, or political science.
Thanks. Are those Law prereqs an expectation that you should have some knowledge of the stuff whose regulations you’ll be working with?
In Canada yeah. So like if you’re wanting to be a patent lawyer, it’s a good idea to have science or engineering background. If you want to go into business law, a business degree is probably a good idea. Etc.
Not sure how it works in the States.
To make it extra confusing some places offer an undergrad in certain areas of law that is not enough to pass the bar or become a lawyer but is enough to give you a leg up to law school.
Thanks. o/
Yep! Pre law is an existing major but it’s not one IU offers.
Engineer here. Unless one is going to become licensed as a Professional Engineer (PE), a Bachelor degree in Engineering is usually sufficient to do work in the corporate or R&D world. PE can be thought of as analogous to passing the bar for lawyers or the licensing exams for MDs or RNs.
Pretty much any major (humanities included) works for law, they mostly just want to know you can think. My mother got into Georgetown with a French degree.
It’s kind of ironic that Raidah is defending trans people just to look superior, but she unknowingly mocked the sibling of Joyce that is a trans woman.
Also, my predictions of what Jordan does are: porn star, stripper, liberal activist, Democrat, the New Wolf of Wall Street, a scientologist, a bomber of abortion clinics, a member of a Fight Club, an alt right racist, a social justice warrior, a stunt double, a hitman, the wingman of the celebrities, the lawyer of Hollywood’s elite, etc.
I have SERIOUS doubts that New Wolf of Wall Street, bomber of abortion clinics, or alt right racist would cause him to be ostracised by Carol. 50/50 on hitman, depending on what contracts he took.
Carol’s standards of what makes a good person are quite strict and far away from normal standards of today.
Oh Willis, you’re about to be flooded with requests for a bonus scene with Harrison now.
And I love the amount of pride Joyce has in her siblings even though Raidah is trying to be classist as fuck at her. Like, yeah, Jocelyne is a BLOGGER and that’s awesome and so on.
And I’m dying with curiosity for the big reveal for Jordan.
\o/ CERBERUS!!! \o/ Hope you’ve been doing ok.
Perhaps a little less pride in John. Though she’s trying to put a good face on it.
Not gonna lie, I’m still stuck on $50k a year not being considered a lot of money.
I’m still stuck on $50k *USD* not being considered a lot of money. That’s like, $67k AUD. If I had a job that paid that, I could afford an inner-city apartment by myself, a pet, good food, private health insurance, and saving up to actually buy a house. Maybe I’m aiming low but that’s a friggin dream to me.
Raidahs strategy did, at first, appear odd to me in that she seemed to be playing to Joyces strengths by playing up now good, decent and nice Joyce is but now its becoming clearer that Raidah is letting Jacob subtly know that what he wants seems to be incompatible with what Joyce clearly wants
Jacob clearly wants to be a success, as does Joyce, but his version of success includes climbing the corporate/law ladder and making a difference whereas Joyces idea of success is more geared towards marriage and family (of course Jacob also wants that but he probably assumes that will happen rather than work towards it)
To cbwroses: Agreed, Jacob is too perfect at the moment as the only flaw he seems to have is, and its quite a stretch to describe it as such, being a bit oblivious
Might be even subtler – Jacob wants someone who’s going to be working with him, sharing his goals. Whether that’s actually working together in the same business or just doing the same kind of “making a difference”, while Joyce is stuck in the “husband goes out and does that stuff while I stay home with the kids as support.”
Even leaving aside the materialism, that’s a huge difference in life expectations.
Now, I’m pretty sure Joyce is going to move away from that, but Jacob doesn’t realize we’re in a long term character arc. 🙂
Bring back Jet Pilot Joyce.
I’m not keen on the view that materialism is somehow more, or less, virtuous than the other. Its a good thing Joyce (maybe) wants to teach kids, teaching is a noble profession but going out and doing what Harrison has done is also noble.
But yeah its a big difference in expectations, Jacob realises that to achieve what he wants to achieve that it’d be in his best interest to have a like minded partner because they’ll be more likely receptive to the extremely long and arduous hours it’ll take Jacob to get there
Joyce, at the moment, is sounding like she wants something else entirely, more likely a doting husband that won’t be spending a lot of time away from home and won’t be putting his career ahead of his family
I don’t like Raidah but shes not playing this badly at all
Joyce specifically is in education so she can home school her kids because, I dunno, women working outside home (unless its for church) is the Devil. Becky was shoved that way too until she came out and realized she could do what she wanted.
Yeah no doubt she’ll dump that viewpoint later but, for now, thats the impression shes giving Jacob
I’m just really liking that this storyline isn’t cut and dried “shes good so she deserves the boy and shes bad so she deserves to lose the boy” kind of thing
Both Raidah and Joyce are not covering themselves in glory here
But Joyce makes Jacob smile.
Raidah also makes Jacob smile
Yeah, Raidah seems to make Jacob very happy – he’s not stopped smiling at her since she came (except once when he was confused by Joyce calling 50K a lot of money).
Arguably, the social justice angle might be a big part of his idea of success.
Whereas Joyce’s familial success is in opposition to Jacob’s. If she finds out what “transgender” is, she’ll have a learning curve.
For the record, I’m sitting here applauding Harrison!
I know right? He sounds like a pretty cool guy.
Radiah seems to be trying to make Joyce look bad, but it’s really making Radiah look snobbish. I think Radiah is going to end up shooting herself in the foot with this tactic.
I’m not thrilled with Joyce, though I do think they’d make a cute couple. But I dislike Raidah more and more as she continues to exist on panel.
I feel like Radiah is in for a huge lesson in “Sucess and money isn’t everything”
Calling it: he’s a science teacher… at a public school (dun dun duuuunnnnn)
I feel like Raidah is someone who’s very concerned with appearing acceptable and doesn’t really care about much that’s beyond that. She’ll tell off her friend for calling Dina the R-word, but she’ll still call her mentally challenged to her face and talk down to her. She’ll bring up trans people as a tool to provoke a fundamentalist and seem better than her, she’ll use subtle classism as a way of getting one over on a romantic rival. From the way she mentioned Harrison, which we’ve seen is an insecurity of Jacob’s, I feel like he’s not safe from this attitude either.
Joyce is being shitty here, but her behavior is pretty limited to just Raidah and Jacob. I think why I like Raidah less than Joyce (besides Joyce being the main character) is because she’s consistently used outsiders against people she’s fighting with. You can see it here with her bringing up Harrison and putting Joyce’s family and class on blast, and you could see it earlier where she tried to use Dina’s (perceived) disability to turn people against Sarah. Raidah’s high-stakes ruthless in pretty low-stakes interactions.
I wouldn’t call Harrison an insecurity of Jacob’s. He seems pretty happy talking about him and really seems to admire him. He wants to be like him and make his family proud but that’s not the same thing as being insecure and worried about him.
Dorothy: Jacob, why don’t you say something?
Raidah: *immediately tells Jacob what to say*
Pretty sure the sex position is a better kind of missionary than that.