The second bonus strip for June is now live! If you’re any kind of patron of the Dumbing of Age Patreon, you can go check it out!
Discussion (253) ¬
[ Comments RSS ]
The second bonus strip for June is now live! If you’re any kind of patron of the Dumbing of Age Patreon, you can go check it out!
Loading ...
Dotty: “…USPS Flat Rate”
Jacob: “What’s that?”
Dotty: “If it fits, it ships”
If it doesn’t fit, Amber’ll ship it!
If it doesn’t fit, Amber must acquit.
It will ship, because Amber will never a’quit!
Is there a USPS “girl’s got a butt” rate?
sure ain’t the flat rate
XD Aye.
Yuck. Mary.
Does USPS have a curvy rate? xD
One of my favorite Groucho Marx jokes is in the movie Horse Feathers when he takes a woman out for a ride in a canoe.
“I wanted a flat bottom, but the girl at the boathouse didn’t have one.”
Dorothy: “Whoa, wait just a cotton picking minute here!…Becky never actually took my order.”
Meaning she’s learning to adapt to the Galasso Workplace Formula. It’s like negging, but directed at customers.
anchors aweigh
Wait… is this… working?
“The plan is dumb. The plan is stupid. The plan is … working?”
In this age of social networks, advanced technology, confusing stories and evil stupid people… yes, it’s working.
Makes me wonder what the Venn diagram would look like between Evil and Stupid and people in general.
The circles would be pretty flush with each other… and would slowly become ever more aligned.
Smart people can be evil too. Trump has a lot of smart people advising him on how to be more evil.
I should explain what I mean by “evil.” To me, evil is deliberately oppressing others for personal gain. Creating out-groups so you can create in-group politics, so you can build an ignorant angry fanatical political base, so you can keep those out-groups “in their place” (e.g. out of your schools) – that’s evil.
The evil to stupid diagram is really more of a scatter chart with morality being x and intelligence being y. While it doesn’t tip to far to either side it gives Amber a run for ‘lowest center of gravity’.
uhoh
And they don’t have a clue
I think the only one who doesn’t have a clue is Jacob.
They’ll fall in love and here’s the bottom line
Our trio’s down to two!
The sweet caress of twilight
There’s magic in everywhere
And with all this romantic atmosphere…
Disaster’s in the air
I BELIEVE IN A THING CALLED LOOOVE
Can you feel the love tonight
The peace the evening brings
The smoke that smokes your oysters.
the fingernail that scrapes the blackboard of your soul.
This was so confusing?.. The lion king was actually playing in the background for my son while I was reading this post.
Oh.
“Yes, there may be something there that wasn’t there before.”
What’s there momma?
“Love is an open dooooo-oooo-oor!”
Dorothy has an idea.
And is apparently not best pleased.
*plays the What’s Happening theme on the hacked Muzak*
And I say heyeahyeahyeayay
*groans* Please no. On the flip side of this comic, I totally get Joyce’s . . .mental block I suppose could be the term for this, when confronted with how to connect what she’s been raised with and how things used to be.
Cognitive dissonance?
That works much better yes.
AND THEY DONT HAVE A CLUE
They’ll fall in love, and here’s the bottom line
It’s a fine bottom.
you can’t pull the wool over dorothys socialist eyes
Thus far I think she’s been extremely slow on the uptake. Much like Ethan being gay, Dorothy is the last to know.
Dorothy is last to know she’s gay? No this is Joyce’s bags
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/progress/
from each according to their ability, to each according to their aching, pulsing, intensely sexual needs
Can really tell how much character art has inproved. I feel like the cast has been drawn more proportionately better in the past handful of months comics
Caught someone peeking at Joyce’s booty.
We’re all looking at Joyce’s booty. She has the fine upstanding Christian Ass, as described in Leviticus 19:28. It’s Kosher
Amen!
Christian as described in Leviticus
Hmm
Kosher, too.
Yeah, I was thinking that would have been more of an upstanding Jewish Ass.
While there’s some mild teasing going on with regards to your gaze and Joyce’s curves, in all seriousness I’m guessing all those Slipshine comics have given Willis a lot of practice at drawing body proportions better.
Get you some, Joyce! 😛
Careful Jacob, Raidah said she wouldn’t get upset but she also seems slightly crazy. If you are going to hang out with Joyce, be prepared for that.
Also if you’re going to hang out with Joyce, be prepared for slightly crazy no matter what’s going on with Raidah.
Tenfold if you also hang out with Joyce’s friends.
Let’s not even begin on meeting the family.
From what it seems Jacob and Joyce havent endured the test of being around one another when one of them are at a more venerable state. That what will be what makes or breaks this pair.
Did you mean ‘vulnerable’?
……yes
I kind of liked “venerable”. We’ll know whether they’re a good pair once they’ve aged together.
No, newllend explicitly said “one of them”. Age-magic hijinks are imminent.
It’s fairly clear from the scene with Raidah and her cronies that Raidah was blatantly lying when she said that.
It will be interesting to see what her plans are and how this all blows up.
Dorothy: no clue
[egg hatches in brain]
Dorothy: gets it
The poor, overworked hamster up there got some rest and hopped back up on its wheel.
Hey hush Dorothy has no brain eggs the parasites weren’t craft enough for good Dotty who she’s pure of soyl
Joyce, go to your room.
Jacob will be right up.
I knew they had a rapport, but dang. Sarah knew what she was doing, and Joe was right to know it was going to work. Just… I foresee no tidy outcome for this.
Can’t say I am sympathetic to Raidah. She’s a patronizing asshole, but we already know she can be vindictive as hell, going by her past with Sarah. This is going to be messy, and barring that, if Joyce hits the eject button instead of seeing this through, that’s going to be messy, too.
I think the thing here is that when Joyce reallized that Joe thought she had a chance, Joyce decided to take it.
and that’s the strangest thing isn’t it. She actually accepts Joe’s opinion as good judgement and oddly it is
The problem is that we’ve only seen Raidah in a handful of scenes, most of them relating to Sarah. The two have a serious, Class A grudge going on, and the reason for it is… honestly pretty understandable on both sides. Sarah got Raidah’s friend kicked out of college, Sarah didn’t want to do it but said friend was making her studies worse.
It’s a fucked up situation all around, but it’s important to keep in mind that we’re naturally going to be siding with Sarah over Raidah, because Sarah’s a main character that’s had like 10x the number of appearances that Raidah has. We really don’t know who Raidah is as her own person, just how she is in relation to Sarah and Jacob.
I am more worried about what Radiah would do to Joyce. She ruined Sarah’s reputation and that enabled Sarah’s antisocial tendencies. Joyce’s reputation as the annoying happy go lucky Christian girl can be destroyed with some viral slut shaming and her antecedents related to being drugged in a party and hiding a lesbian in her room (victim blaming culture is horrible).
Joyce has a fairly strong social circle that won’t be swayed by any of that. Sarah didn’t have any other friends, she was vulnerable to isolation and bullying and Raidah has taken advantage of that.
I’d guess that Raidah’s attack will be more aimed at Jacob – directed at protecting their relationship and keeping Joyce away from him rather than just damaging Joyce.
We’ve also seen her with Dina being incredibly condescending to her and also dismissing Joyce as nothing more than a “child” when one of her friends mentions how Jacob is hanging out with her. I think it’s fair to say she’s a shitty person in general.
1: Again, Raidah is not a main character, she’s not even a secondary character. We only really see her in scenes relating to other people, it’s hard to get a good view of who she actually is.
2: But, okay, let’s say she is Queen bongo of the University. DOES IT MATTER? There’s been zero indication that Jacob’s relationship with Raidah is anything but healthy and supportive. And Joyce has been actively acting to damage and/or destroy that relationship, first by trying to get him to hook up with Sarah, and now trying to get him to get interested in her.
This is not okay. Joyce is, without question, in the wrong here. People shouldn’t be cheering her on.
When we last saw Raidah, the way she talked it seemed like she treated her relationship with Jacob as more of a status symbol of being this perfect power couple. Jacob doesn’t seem to notice yet. Anyways I don’t really care if something happens between Joyce and Jacob. That’s entirely on them.
That’s one read of it, and not an invalid one at all either. But what I also see in that comic is a bunch of her friends telling her that she should be jealous, that Joyce is trying to steal Jacob away from her (…which Joyce is trying to do), and Raidah refusing to be suspicious.
She might be an asshole (fun fact: a word that rhymes with “witch” auto-corrects to Bongo here!) that’s extremely patronizing of other people, but I still can’t help but see her relationship with Jacob as healthy and non-abusive.
My take on Jacob&Raidah: it looks more like networking than romance.
(checks all the boxes)
How someone chooses to act in their worst moments is very telling of what kind of person they are.
I mean, there’s also her vaguely treating Dina like she’s “mentally challenged” when Raidah and her friends bump into her at the mall. I mean, she tries to be “nice” about it, or at least nicer than one of her friends, but still she straight up says it before acting kind of condescending to her?
Not that the rest of the cast is particularly blameless in that regard either, but her and her friends don’t seem the most pleasant of people even when dealing with people only tangentially related to Sarah.
She might be an asshole. But when it comes to her and Jacob, have we seen any indication that their relationship isn’t healthy? No one’s pressuring the other for sex, no one’s acting jealous, the closest thing to a fight has been the two disagreeing about Joe’s value as a person (…in a scene most of the audience was on Raidah’s side about, given that it was regarding a “Do” list).
That’s what’s making me squicky here. Joyce seems to be trying to destroy a healthy relationship…
Their relationship doesn’t need to be ‘unhealthy’ for people to dislike it.
It could be a simple character assessment – Raidah is condescending and mean, Joyce is nice and kind, if naive, ergo Joyce deserves him more.
Not saying I agree, but there’s more to a relationship than just ‘being healthy’.
It’s also quite possible to think Raidah’s a manipulative jerk, who’s more interested in Jacob as a “good prospect” than in him personally (reading a bit between the lines in that last scene between her and her friends), and also think that Joyce is in the wrong going after him.
I like the idea of them together – I think they’ve got fun chemistry and would make for interesting stories (even beyond the conflict with Raidah.) I also expect that conflict to blow up in such a way that they don’t wind up together – which is one reason I’m less happy with this arc than I want to be – I fully expect it to torpedo the ship.
Let’s be a bit fairer to Sarah here. Her roommate was having a hard time coping with losing her mother and neither the roommate or her friends (Raidah) really wanted to deal with that. Sarah was getting no sleep and her grades were suffering. The RA either smelled nothing or didn’t care, and when you’re a scholarship student, any little thing could get that money taken away. The fact that not only Sarah put up with it for so long, but chose to call the dad instead of the RA or police was an act of kindness. At my school, simply being in the same room of someone doing something illegal could get your scholarship repealed or even get you kicked out. If it was me, i’d say keep that sh*t out of the room or one way or another, one of us is leaving this room. Her roommates dad owned a law firm. I doubt her future was set back that much since she didn’t get kicked out by the actual school.It’s not unusual to take a semester or even a year break. Honestly, she could easily come back to school anytime so it’s not a huge deal. Could Sarah have been more tactful? Yeah. But it was in her right to be a hell of a lot less. Raidah then chose to go all mean girls on Sarah. So even if Raidah’s feelings are understandable and she’s not Captain Evil, she’s still in the wrong here.
Also, If Joyce likes him, and he likes her more than Raidah, that’s fair game. Takes two to tango. Nobody is owed a continued relationship and what Sarah did is barely meddling. All she did was get two people who have good chemistry together. Same thing Joyce was kinda doing trying to do with her and him. She didn’t pull off any wacky highjinks to make Raidah look bad in front of Jacob. If he comes to the conclusion that he likes someone other than his girlfriend, that’s perfectly fine. Relationships don’t have to violently explode to justify an end. Sometimes they fizzle or just go cold.
Regarding the Sarah/Raidah/Dana stuff? My point isn’t declaring who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s twofold: Recognizing that the origin of their conflict is entirely understandable and sympathetic on both sides, and that we’re generally inclined to side with Sarah simply because it’s her POV we’re seeing far more than Raidah. It’s just one of those Rashomon type situations.
As for Joyce/Raidah/Jacob? The problem I have is that Joyce seems to be actively trying to court Jacob while Jacob has been openly stating that he’s happy in the relationship he has right now, and there’s no signs that the relationship is an unhealthy one. That’s showing a lack of respect for him and kinda feels like a betrayal of what he see’s as a simple, platonic friendship.
Hell, even when someone is in a legitimately unhealthy relationship it’s unwise to try to force or manipulate them out of it. It still has to be an informed decision they make for their own happiness.
I want to give Dorothy a haircut. Or at least fish a hair clip out of a river for her.
I was just thinking that same thing. I seem to remember her hair being neater…? Maybe her stress is starting to affect her appearance a little bit, at least for the less important things like haircut.
I think it looks fine.
Dorothy’s just neglecting routine hygiene for studying. She’ll be doing okay again after midterms, assuming she gets A’s.
Big assumption.
I’m pretty sure there’s more to the “Dorothy’s overworked breakdown” arc than “she broke up with Walky and can study now, so she’ll be fine”.
Plus midterms are still years away, I suspect.
No I love it and she needs to keep growing it out.
Fine, but I nearly got my friend killed to get this hair clip, so she’s going to need to wear it.
I accept your compromise.
Why a river?
Is that not where all webcomics keep their hair clips?
Tie me a river
I little googling and I got it, but for a while there I was wondering if the hair clip was made out of stolen gold, and gave its wearer the power to rule the world — but only if they renounced love first.
The problem with doing that is that eventually your son ends up killing your nemesis’s grandson and then being drowned while the world burns.
Less than ideal.
Is this God of War refranxe
Eyyy Gunnerkrigg
I was just saying this yesterday!
This is a really good job of conveying things through what ought to be innocuous interactions entirely through…pacing, framing, and body language.
Is it just me, or is it kind of weird that Jacob seems to be propping his head up with his left hand when his right elbow is the one nearest the table in that position?
I scrolled up to see what I thought, and I got distracted by his magical disappearing Fitbit.
It’s there in both panels now; Willis is trying to gaslight me.
He’s repositioned himself to get a better view of Joyce walking away. This is either going to end wonderfully or horribly.
I just tried it, and you’re right. With the torso turned in a three-quarter position, I had to lean way over to get the left elbow on the table. Not difficult, but definitely awkward.
so much dumbing…
Yet the characters glacially age.
They age at a normal rate, assuming that they are on a planet that is moving at a speed that is sufficiently close to the speed of light.
I still prefer the Brigadoon model — every night when they go to bed, the next day they wake up two months in the future. In other words, they undergo quantum aging.
Houston, we have comprehension! Mission is a go, I repeat… Mission Is a GO!!
is Joyce wearing one of those newfangled smart watches? also I’ve forgotten when she stopped wearing her wrist brace
She and Jacob are both wearing fitbits, and competing to see who gets a higher score.
Jacob is taller so Joyce gets the higher score if ya know whatameen
Because her stride’s shorter and she takes more steps!
Dorothy, internally: “I just got an incredible thesis about how gender roles, racial interactions, and shared-while-divergent religious values interact, and I really hope Leslie assigns a paper that lets me use it. ….. oh, and something about Joyce and Jacob.”
I was going to type out a different comment but I accidentally said “Jesus was a ho” and I think that’s the best possible comment I could make so here goes:
Jesus was a ho.
*applause*
A ho that fed the po’, Pablo?
Haha Jesus was a fuckin ho I love internet mmm
MEANINGFUL GLANCES
YESSSSSSSS
Dorothy is… not a very smooth wingman, but she has her eyes on the price.
I realize that’s likely a typo but it still fits.
Huh? What do you… google, google… heh, yeah. It got even better!
I was thinking more along the lines of her eyes are on the PRICE – i.e. what the consequences of acting on her attraction to Jacob could be (assuming Raidah’s not out of the picture yet).
Yeah, I got it (once you pointed it out). Prize as gain, price as consequence.
Eyes on the prize vs eyes on the prize really should be a meme or something.
Agreed. That’s a meme I’d like to see.
…And typos strike again, just as glorious. XD
DANGIT!
TBF, if you’re going to rate someone on being a good wingman, you should probably tell them they’re supposed to be a wingman.
Dorothy isn’t being a wingman. I’m pretty sure that Dorothy would be pissed if she knew about Joyce and Sarah’s plans regarding Jacob.
She knows. Not about Joyce’s involvement, but she knows Sarah wants to break up Raidah and Jacob.
Just look at panel 3. She will call Joyce ‘very sturdy’ any time now.
I’m pretty sure that as of that last panel, she knows about Joyce’s plans regarding Jacob.
Oh man. This is the first evidence I’ve seen that maybe Jacob has feelings. He is so oblivious though, I wonder what he will do when he realizes he does, nevermind when he finds out about joyce
There is an interest and an attraction, given his habit of analyzing Joyce and her personality, traits, habits, and tendencies it’s obvious he’s found himself enamored by her and it makes it even better that the two of them actually enjoy each other’s company.
Though as for what he does if he finds out Joyce has a thing for him, well that’s still up in the air.
Wait, this is working?!?
RUH ROH, RAGGY
Ya smell that salty sea air, Scoob?
Dorothy has been spending a lot of time studying. Now that she’s interacting with humans again, how long do you think it’ll be before she figures out that Joyce is a missile aimed by Sarah to destroy Jacob and Raidah’s relationship?
She didn’t know about Joyce’s involvement but she knows Sarah wants to split up Raidah and Jacob. She was at the party and overheard Sarah saying ‘The fuck [Raidah gets Jacob]’. She asked whether or not Jacob got any agency in this decision.
Now she knows the answer: The answer is ‘yes’ because he seems to be falling for Joyce all on his own!
Dorothy just realized what’s going on with Joyce and Jacob here. That or she’s checking out Joyce’s ass.
Why not both?
….That joke was low hanging fruit.
It sure is low hanging!!
You’d hope not. That’s called sagging.
She sees what’s SHIPENING.
Leave it alone, Dor.
Don’t leave it alone, Dor.
If Joyce is openly flirting with Jacob (which seems to be the case), and Joyce and Dorothy know that Jacob is already in a relationship (which is definitely true for Joyce, and I think it’s true for Dorothy), then Joyce is out of line here.
Trying to break up an apparently happy relationship because you think you deserve the person more than their partner does? That’s just some bullshit right there.
I don’t know if Joyce knows that she’s flirting.
Maybe. It’s been borderline, but this comic has… unpleasant connotations regarding Joyce’s actions here: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/sniping/
Joe has straight up confronted her about it so she doesn’t get to use ignorance as an excuse like she does every other time she does something gross.
Oh she knows. And even when she didn’t, she still knew she was trying to break them up – she just thought she was doing it for Sarah.
I really wish you’d stop policing with whom and when people may flirt.
It’s their decision.
As a friend, in a quite moment, you might feel it’s right to point out possible consequences, but really, who falls in love with whom is no one else business.
Are there gray areas? Sure, absolutely. Not all flirting is created equal, sometimes it’s done for fun with no intention of actually leading to anything.
But Joyce’s actions regarding Jacob have routinely been framed as “get him to break up with Raidah and start dating Person X”. And while we haven’t seen particularly good sides of Raidah, there’s been zero sign that her relationship with Jacob is anything but healthy and supportive.
So, yeah, I find fault with someone trying to damage a healthy relationship for their own benefit. Call me what you will.
People in relationships are not passive beings who can only be acted on. Considering a person as ‘off limits’ because they’re dating someone is incredibly dehumanizing imo because people are not things, people don’t belong to other people, people can choose for themselves. If Jacob loses interest in Raidah because of Joyce flirting with him that is Jacob’s choice entirely – Joyce can’t make him break up with Raidah, that’s on him. Women expressing interest in people get blamed so often (I hate the word ‘homewrecker’) for the falling out of relationships, it’s stupidly unfair. I’m not a fan of the JacobXJoyce pairing but it’s really their own business how they choose to act. The personality of Raidah or how good or bad her relationship with Jacob is are pertinent to Jacob alone. Bluntly speaking, Raidah and Joyce are not friends, Joyce can do what she likes, and she shouldn’t have to shoulder the blame of a relationship ending because she literally isn’t one of the parties in that relationship.
I understand the hesitation regarding blaming Joyce and leaving Jacob blameless, the “Homewrecker” stigma is a legit one to be worried about.
The problem I have is that this isn’t Joyce innocently and accidentally showing interest in a guy. She was actively trying to split Jacob and Raidah up so that Sarah and Jacob could be together. She’s fully aware that Sarah had been shifting those efforts into getting Jacob to leave Raidah for Joyce. There is a degree of intent here that leaves me uncomfortable.
Do we really, in all seriousness, believe Joyce’s getting along with Jacob and having chemistry with him is deliberate manipulation on her part to get him with her rather than more or less the same behavior she’s had since she met him? Her manipulation with Sarah was super awkward.
Trying to manipulate Jacob into dating Sarah over Raidah was shitty, but happening to fall for someone who’s casually dating someone, such that everyone expects you two would be good together, is not. I honestly imagine they’ll start dating normally, then someone will mention the Sarah thing to Jacob and suddenly drama.
I honestly do. This comic is kinda the reason why: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/sniping/
That last look by Joyce is not exactly… well, it kinda implies that she’s not thinking about platonic friendship anymore. Also, her trying to be cool and suave in front of Jacob in this scene is in the same ballpark as her attempts to ship Sarah and Jacob.
Could be wrong. But this feels wrong.
Well, I don’t expect them to start casually dating, because this is all going to blow up in a spectacular fashion when Raidah makes her move.
Just because its their decision to make doesn’t automatically make it a morally good decision to make. Flirting with someone else in a monogamous relationship with intent to end that relationship so you can have them isn’t okay. If she’d been upfront and said, “I’m interested. If you’re interested we can do something after you break up with Raidah. If not, I’m still glad I told you.” I could respect that. That is not what she’s doing. If Jacob wants to be with Joyce, he needs to either break up with Raidah or discuss having a polyamorous relationship BEFORE he gets with Joyce. Cheating on people isn’t okay.
And yeah, no, it is absolutely someone elses business if Jacob and Joyce fall in love right now. Raidah’s. Jacob’s (again, monogamous) girlfriend. Who, if they do fall in love now, he has neglected to break up with. If someone is getting hurt or if someone is not behaving ethically in the relationship, it’s absolutely okay to step in and tell them so.
“Flirting with someone else in a monogamous relationship with intent to end that relationship so you can have them isn’t okay.”
Why? Genuinely asking.
A) It’s disrespecting the fact they’re in a monogamous relationship which, assuming they weren’t coerced into it, is also disrespecting the other person’s wishes.
B) It’s got an element of …deception isn’t the right word, but in this case, it is not the same as being upfront with Joyce’s intentions.
C) Regardless of the fact Raidah and Joyce are not friends, she is still a person with feelings who would likely feel betrayed to find out Jacob fell for another girl behind her back, especially after she trusted Jacob NOT to be cheating on her, which acting on attraction to other people (such as flirting while intending said flirting to lead to relationships (as opposed to having a flirty personality or being friends flirting without it meaning anything serious)) is. I’m not saying Jacob is flirting seriously with Joyce here, but if he is, he needs to either dump Raidah or knock it off.
D) Generally speaking, it’s considered rude to assume you know best for someone and try to break up their relationships because you want them with someone else.
And this one isn’t about Joyce, but rather Jacob doing something wrong (again, if he neglects to break up with Raidah first) – E) Cheating on your partner is wrong.
A) If the other person doesn’t want to be flirted with they can always tell you to back off? Persistently flirting with someone who doesn’t reciprocate is harassment, that’s not what I’m talking about. I don’t see why the institution of monogamy has to be respected when a person-in-a-relationship is clearly signalling that they like and reciprocate your interest in them, like Jacob is here.
B) Flirting and being coy about your intentions is how most people test initial attraction, it’s like dipping a toe in to gauge interest. I don’t personally love it but it’s really normal in dating and romance culture so I don’t see why complete forthrightness is expected here when it wouldn’t necessarily be if both parties were single.
C) I’m very aware that Raidah will be hurt, but Jacob has to bear the responsibility and possible guilt for that, not Joyce. It’s not Joyce’s relationship and she has the right to go for what she wants as long as the other party is consenting to it. Because it’s Joyce she will probably feel guilty when the full import of her actions hit her but I don’t even think that guilt is necessary.
D) But Joyce doesn’t actually want Jacob with Sarah, she clearly wants him for herself – and that’s not because she assumes it would be better for him to be with her (though she may justify it on those grounds) but simply because she wants him. Does anyone pursue someone romantically because it would be better for them? It would be bizarre if that were so, but in reality most people pursue people out of plain and simple attraction. That’s what Joyce is doing here and I think in and of itself it’s morally neutral.
E) Yeah I didn’t mention Jacob for a reason because his situation is much more complicated. But Joyce’s isn’t and she shouldn’t be judged for this imo.
A) Yes, they can, but the entire point of a monogamous relationship is saying ‘I am only interested in dating this person while this relationship lasts’. Trying to get him to date someone else is disrespecting that choice. And yes, the fact its a monogamous one matters because if it wasn’t, Jacob could date whoever else he wanted. Since it’s monogamous, he cannot ethically do that. It’s called honouring your commitments. Joyce is aware they’re dating and knows they’re monogamous. If Jacob’s signalling interest, that means something is going screwy.
B) Because one party is in a relationship. Playing coy about your intentions when you’re both single is fine because nobody is getting hurt. If you’re going to try and end another person’s relationship, at least be straight up about it.
C) No. Joyce is the one who started pursuing Jacob. She cannot any longer say she had no role in them breaking up, especially when breaking them up is what she sent out to do. You can’t try to get someone to break up with someone else and date you and then say you have no role in it. That’s not how things work. It won’t be her fault if Jacob cheats on Raidah or if the actual breakup is messy, but she can’t play blameless here.
D) JOYCE is the ‘someone else’ she is trying to set Jacob up with in this scenario. She clearly thinks she’d make a better relationship with Jacob or she wouldn’t bother pursuing him. Also, Joyce regularly believes she knows better than other people about their relationships. Why should this be different?
E) Yeah, no, I’m judging her seven ways to Sunday for this one. Other people matter, even if they’re not your friends, and she’s definitely taking part in something that treats Raidah like shit (especially since, again, she’s the one who came here aiming to break him and Raidah up).
A) That’s the rub though. “While this relationship lasts”. Losing interest in the person you’re with or gaining interest in another person are totally legitimate reasons to end a relationship. As long as nobody cheats or does something like spread lies about one of the people in the relationship to end it, all’s fair. Joyce has no obligation to sit on the sideline hoping things go wrong with Raidah. If she flirts and he rejects, then needs to shut it down. But if he responds in kind, and wants to act on his feeling, it’s up to him to end things with Raidah. 2 people dating isn’t a lock and key.
B. Again, there’s no obligation for her to shout ” I Like You I Want To End Your Relationship”. She’s allowed to test the waters and see how warm it is.
C. Again. Flirting isn’t breaking someone up. Having that flirting reciprocated isn’t breaking someone up. Spreading lies about a person in order to get their partner to seem them in an false light is breaking someone up.
D. Meh
E. At some point you’ve got to go with what you think is right, even if it may hurt someone else. If you think you’d be happy with someone, and you’re not lying or committing a crime to make it happen, it’s fair. Would I feel kinda bad for Raidah. Yeah. But i’m not gonna shame Jacob or Joyce as long as they don’t cheat. Life is messy. Relationships are some of the messiest parts of life. While I can fault Sarah for trying to get Jacob with Joyce kind of get back at Radiah, If Joyce gets with Jacob, despite R’s hurt feelings, it’s not to break those two up. It’s to get with Jacob. A small difference, but an important one.
A) I’d consider Jacob seriously flirting with Joyce inappropriate (again, see above for my definition of ‘serious flirting’). As far as I’m concerned, Jacob is obligated not to be seriously flirting with other people while he’s in a monogamous relationship and I do think it’s rude for Joyce to be disregarding the relationship Jacob is in, if nothing else than because it’s, again, behind his girlfriend’s back.
B) Yeah, no. “Testing the waters” by not being upfront when you want someone to ditch their partner for you is crappy, imo.
C) Joyce is intending to break up Jacob and Raidah so they can get together. Just because she’s doing it via flirting does not mean she isn’t doing it. Especially since A) Jacob should not be flirting with other people while he’s in a monogamous relationship and B) Once again, this is all taking place behind Raidah’s back.
D and E are basically the same issue so E) No. No you don’t ‘have’ to break other people up. Joyce is choosing to do so, including smugly disregarding Raidah’s stake in this relationship when confronted about this by Joe, for her own gratification. She thinks she knows better than Jacob about his relationships (like she does with others of her friends) and is refusing to back off (again with her boundary problem). It’s one of Joyce’s least appealing characteristics to me. Also, this is again disregarding that Jacob flirting with her (again, assuming he is seriously flirting with her) is inappropriate already. Joyce smugly dismissing Raidah isn’t really much better than Sarah trying to break them up over their conflict. Joyce isn’t not thinking about Raidah or even just deciding its worth it, she’s straight up pretending Raidah’s not even in a relationship or taking her seriously. Joyce is being an asshole.
This is just my personal opinion – but I see it as kind of lousy. If you *know* someone is in a relationship, and you set out to destroy that relationship to gratify your own desire…yeah, kind of lousy in my book. Of course it’s the job of the person in the relationship NOT to cheat or to break up with their partner if the existing relationship is strong. In a situation like this I wouldn’t blame Joyce, but might also say that I hope she’s not fully conscious of what she’s doing. I agree with BBCC above that if she is interested in Jacob, ethically she’d be better off by openly telling him that.
However, I’m a fair bit older than Joyce is here and when I was her age I’m not sure I would have had the spoons to do that. When I was about Joyce’s age and in college I had a crush on a close male-identifed friend of mine who was in a monogamous committed relationship with someone he’d dated since high school (they eventually landed up getting married). While I didn’t consciously mean to at the time, I’m sure I was very flirty with him sometimes – people who knew us both often thought *we* were dating. There was actually one point when he was having a very bad fight with his partner and called me late at night, very upsetted late, asking to come over to my apartment to talk. I remember thinking, “If you say yes, something is going to happen between the two of you.” And then I thought, “That’s not okay because no matter how angry he is with her, he really loves his partner.” So I said I had a lot of homework to do. And while it wouldn’t have been my *responsibility* to make sure my friend remained faithful to his partner, it also would have been kind of sh!tty for me to have take advantage of the situation.
Also, if you’re really friends with someone, IMHO, you don’t try to mess up their life. If this person had broken up with their partner, then maybe the two of us might have hooked up. But he didn’t and, as far as I know, the two of them are still married today. If Jacob isn’t happy with Raidah and breaks up with her then yes, Joyce can certainly pursue him. But what she’s been doing in terms of Jacob seems kind of manipulative to me and not really in keeping with being his friend.
There is also another factor here – in U.S.ian society, women who flirt with involved men are also labelled “temptresses” and “home-wreckers,” while the same isn’t necessarily said of men who are unfaithful. As a religious person, I’m sure Joyce knows about Jezebel and the Jezebel-esque characters in the bible. I personally don’t want to contribute to that terrible stereotype, another reason why I think it’s not so great for a woman to concertedly go after a man who’s involved with someone else. In fact, over the course of our friendship, I got to know my college friend’s partner better. In my conversations with him, he would sometimes hint that she could be kind of a “drag” on him and seemed to imply that he was out-growing her. However, when she and I spent more time together, I realized she was actually REALLY cool and that in some ways I liked her better than I did him. I realized I had done a not-oka thing by flirting with her partner (although I didn’t always do it on purpose) and would have seriously hurt a very decent person had I tried concertedly to destroy their relationship.
(I apologize for multiple typos – it is late and I’m on my iPad.)
I understand what you’re saying and I respect that it’s a personal opinion. I think that’s the crux of the matter – where this falls on the moral scale depends on you personally and what you consider to be morally significant. I value consent and taking personal responsibility for your own actions above all else in the realm of relationships; others may prioritize differently and that’s okay. What gets to me is how easily actions that upset the norms of monogamy, even when there is consent like there is with Joyce and Jacob flirting, are automatically and uncritically seen as wrong. I don’t think there are absolutely good justifications for making such judgements and it depends more on what the people concerned believe to be important.
The problem here is this isn’t polyamory or anything like it. Polyamory requires consent from ALL parties (in this case, Jacob, Joyce AND Raidah). Otherwise, it’s not polyamory, it’s cheating and that is a whole ‘nother ball game.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply and I agree that, at least in the U.S., monogamy is seen as the norm. That has been my personal experience of being in relationships. In regards to the college friend I mentioned, he and his partner obviously valued monogamy and I still think I would have been a lousy person had I tried to destroy that relationship. Given Joyce’s Christian background, I assume she privileges monogamy – we don’t really know about Jacob.
I will also admit I am biased because, while I’m Queer, all my serious relationships have been monogamous and I haven’t truly explored polyamory. Granted, there have been a few times when my current partner and I “fooled around” with other people some years ago when we were both in a very close circle of friends and people sometimes got drunk and naked at parties. But – going back to the issue of consent – that was always with each other’s consent and permission, and the consent of the people involved. (And it was ABUNDANTLY clear that no one was trying to break up anyone’s relationship.) In fact, I remember at one such party, my partner asked me if I was okay if he kissed one of our female-identified friends, and then the woman checked in with me as well. (For the record, I said yes as long as *I* got to kiss her first! Heehee.) But my partner and I am basically monogamous (or monagom-ish, a term coined by one of my colleagues) and I’ll admit my value system kind of does come from that structure.
However, I personally think it also comes down to respect; I respect my partner, so if I want to kiss a woman, I’m going to talk to him about that before I do it. I didn’t respect my college friend enough (and was too young) to honestly talk to him and to his partner about my feelings for him. Who knows – maybe they would have been up for a polyamorous relationship! IMHO, it seems a wee bit like if Joyce really respected Jacob, she’d be more open about her intentions towards him. But again, she’s young, and I do remember how overwhelming attraction can be at that age. I also do NOT like the way that women who evince attraction towards others are often villified in U.S.ian culture. Jacob seems to be aware of Joyce’s attraction to him and her flirting (he’d kind of have to be completely clueless not to be), so why hasn’t HE shut her down?
Because Jacob is pretty clueless about this, I think. (Or much more deceptive than we’ve any reason to suspect.)
He’s definitely affected and definitely responding, but there’s been no sign he’s aware of it. Look at the aftermath of their church trip, where Joyce is clinging to his arm when Raidah meets them and she blushes and jumps away, but he just ignores it and greets Raidah happily. Everyone else sees it, but he’s oblivious.
He’d also made a comment to Raidah earlier about having had problems with jealous girlfriends, which leads me to think this is something of a pattern – close flirty friendships with girls with obvious crushes.
@Jaime: I agree having a friend you’re attracted to sleep over when they are upset about their current relationship is a thing to be avoided. I would (and did) avoid that kind of situation because of my commitment to be a good friend (and creating a situation where sexual things become likely when said friend is still in a relationship does not meet my idea about friendship.) To me, that would feel like betraying a friend’s trust.
I don’t think Joyce would do that either.
@theJeff: If Jacob has a pattern of annoying his girlfriends by flirting with girls who have a crush on him without noticing, it’s time he starts to notice things.
He body language is so obviously responsive it’s hard to imagine he doesn’t know, though stranger things have happened. I can also imagine that he likes it that Joyce actually admires him while Raidah rather gave the impression he has to jump higher to meet her standards.
Again, maybe I’m being too reductive, or being too old. But in my book if you are friends with someone (as I said above), you don’t try to mess up their life. And YES, friendship can survive romantic attraction and is sometimes stronger when you don’t take advantage of that attraction. I say this from personal experience, as I’ve mentioned above.
Morality of flirting with a person in a relationship (who is clearly developing similar feelings), I’m arguing that Dorothy should not get involved because its such a sticky situation without her “woke” self getting into it.
…. so Panel 5 is Butts newest avatar now, yes?
We can only hope it will be, before someone else grabs it.
I wish Joyce’s thoughts are readable because things just can’t be what they seem at this point.
I love the fact that no one has commented on the first panel, where Joyce is still struggling with the whole Jesus-was-a-socialist thing and the fact that this perfect hunk of a godfearing man is clearly capable of holding that point of view.
Not to mention that she’s going off to say hello to Jason. Now, this involves her going up to a bar (oh noes, alcohol!). But she doesn’t know why he wasn’t in class anymore, and he doesn’t know they don’t know, and she wouldn’t approve of the reason why he’s now a bartender, and lord only knows what will happen to her poor little mind if she finds out that SAL tried to improve her grades by having premarital hanky-panky.
The potential for maximum amusement is high.
Joyce actually knows exactly why Jason wasn’t in class: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/structure/
Which, honestly, to me makes it even funnier. She catches a glimpse of THAT situation and still chooses it as the lesser of two evils here.
She probably wants to know if it is true; she is a bit of a Gossip Gertie, after all.
Dorothy: *A bird hatches inside her brain* YOU AND HER?!
Also, I wonder how will Joyce react if she is told Halloween is the result of many branches of Christianity adopting pagan traditions, or that Jesus wasn’t born in Christmas, that it was a scheme of the Christian Church to associate pagan winter festivities with Jesus.
My feeling is that Joyce’s particular branch of Evangelism is probably one of those that condemns the mainstream churches for adopting ‘pagan festivals’.
We know she celebrates Christmas at least (supplementary material).
Why Jacob! Are you admiring that sight of Joycebutt? It’s pretty blatant which is why Dorothy, despite being pretty burned out, has finally realised what is going on between those two!
I guess their walkathon competition and that one trip to the gym is working out for Joyce.
I’d frame those two panels with just this link as a caption:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulteZYyWAA8
Dorothy has to be thinking “Aw, jeez, Joyce” again.
Didn’t Sarah fancy Jacob at one point? Man, I do not miss those first year of college drama fests. Hoo boy
Nat King Cole’s All In The Game should play softly in the back ground, but Dottie really needs one of the 60s computer noises that were supposed to represent computers working.
“Waaait a minute.”
I’m wondering what the audiences positions would be if, say a few weeks ago…
Raidah=Dorothy
Jacob = Walky
Joyce = Raidah
Kinda get the feeling the, “Oh she’s perfectly entitled to try and split them up”, POV wouldn’t be so prevalent.
Well for one thing Dorothy isn’t an utter bongo
1: We’ve rarely seen Raidah outside of her interactions with Sarah, who she has a serious mutual grudge with. Keep in mind the issues with perspective.
2: There is no sign that Raidah and Jacob’s relationship is unhealthy, abusive or otherwise bad for any of the parties involved. So does it matter how much of an ass Raidah might seem in the few scenes we see her in? She trusts Jacob not to cheat on her, she wants him to do his best, he’s never shown any sign of having regrets about his relationship with her. When does it become okay to try to break up two other people?
I’ll tell you my one major concern with Raidah’s relationship with Jacob (and it is specifically her relationship with him, not the other way around). I’m not sure if she likes Jacob as much as she likes the idea of being with him. It seems that the pair of them fit into her preconceived notion of a ‘power couple’. I’m not sure she likes Jacob beyond his ability to make her look like the upwardly mobile young woman that she perceives herself to be.
None of this is necessarily unhealthy or wrong. However, it does raise questions about the fundamental strength and longer-term viability of their relationship. Eventually, there is a risk that she will need Jacob to be a certain person as part of her personal ambitions, irrespective of whether he personally wants to be that person.
FWIW, I can’t see Joyce ever wanting Jacob to be anybody but Jacob. However, this is just my perspective and you have every right to see things differently.
Agreed. I don’t actually see their relationship as particularly healthy, because of some of Raidah’s comments. Her last chat with her friends in particular makes it seem like she’s not being as straightforward as she presents to Jacob.
That said, it doesn’t really change the moral argument – Joyce doesn’t know any of that. She’s not acting here out of concern for Jacob and worries about Raidah.
True though from what I remember her friends were also pretty shitty to Dina which is what made me dislike her.
Also sorry for not saying it in the first post but I do not condone Joyce breaking them up. JoeCovenant said that the attitude of the audience would be different if the characters were different. My comment about Raidah being a bongo was aimed at the “attitude” part. Of course we’d be more willing to side with Dorothy who is a nice but sometimes awkward person than with Raidah who has shown herself to be somewhat spiteful and nasty.
I think that their reaction would have been. “Raidah is crushing on Walky?!? How is that plausible?”
She’d be welcome to try but we wouldn’t be taking it seriously.
Heh, Dorothy is having her “Oh? Ohhhhh” moment XD
Well I don’t have name for it,
Been trying to find a name for it,
I don’t think there’s a name for it,
But it’s kinda like being in love.
Dorothy has a lightbulb moment. 🙂
The sad part is that Joyce isn’t evne making an excuse, Jason’s really here. Tho since he’s been hired last night, I’m wondering what his work hours are exactly. When did he last sleep ?
CAAAAAN YOU FEEEL
THE LOOOVE TONIIIIGHT?
my poor gay heart needs Dorothy and Joyce to get together soooo badly ;-;
although it seems like I’m the only one interpreting Dorothy’s sadness at realizing Joyce and Jacob are getting along that way
That’s not sadness, that’s realization.
Dorothy has stated she’s straight, anyway, in no uncertain terms. That ship was sunk early by one of the shippees.
As has Joyce.
You’re thinking of this comic, right?
It’s important that Dorothy says “I guess that estimate could change”. Dorothy is aware that her self-definition isn’t going to be perfect. That only really means that nothing’s proven conclusively, of course. JoycexDorothy is literally the only thing I’ve ever shipped, but yeah realistically speaking I don’t see it happening without quite a lot of time passing. Lots of important things would have to change first. I only contest that the ship ever sank.
Dorothy: “Oh, good, so I’m off the hook. Back to studying!” *Leaves*
Joyce/Fandom: Lassos her back in
I read Dorothy slightly differently. She see Joyce and Jacob flirting and casting glances and knows that she has turned her back on all that. She misses someone looking at her like that, even though it was her decision.
Maybe, but this is the first time she’s seen Joyce and Jacob together in a long time and though she knew Sarah was intent on not letting Raidah have him, I don’t think she knew anything about Joyce being in on that plan.
This reads to me like her picking up on what’s going on between them and a dose of “Oh, so that’s Joyce is being weird.”
But yeah, missing Walky likely colors everything she thinks these days. Not subtly either, she was about to go jump him to comfort him a few minutes back.
@Butts where you at!
Also Joyce is adorable in that panel. And Jacob is adorable. Everyone’s adorable
I just noticed that Joyce’s s second button is still undone.
A penny drops.
Now shipping on Amazon Prime!
In the immortal words of Scott Pilgrim after finding he and Ramona’s ex’s were in a bad together:
“Oh no.”
Uh-oh… It appears Raidah’s idea that Joyce isn’t going to be a threat is now officially mistaken.
My 2 cents on the whole Raidah/Jacob/Joyce debacle
It isn’t ok for Joyce to go for Jacob like this, on account of how it’s disrespectful to both Jacob and Raidah, and even with the caveat that technically Joyce is only flirting with Jacob, and not actually actively doing anything malicious break them up, it’s still not ok, because flirting is still somewhat of a disruptive act.
While flirting is nowhere near bad as say spreading lies about a person in the relationship, it still ends up achieving the same goals, which are to destroy trust between the people in the relationship, and cause suspicion amongst at least one of the partners about the other.
I mean, if Jacob reciprocates(which he’s doing), then there’s really nothing that can make Joyce stop. But the effect of Joyce’s flirting isn’t limited to whether Jacob reciprocates or not and its effect on him, since eventually word’s going to get back to Raidah that Joyce is flirting with Jacob on a regular basis, and that’ll sow seeds of distrust and suspicion in Raidah, which might lead to a breakup. In this scenario, how could Joyce not share some of the blame for the breakup?
Even if the breakup is caused by Jacob deciding to leave Raidah for Joyce, some part of the blame still rests on Joyce, because what she’s doing is essentially “tricking” (I know that’s not the right word to use, its just the only one I can think of right now that sorta fits what I want to say) Jacob to becoming more attached to her compared to Raidah, because she knows that if she asks him outright he’ll say no, so she’s gonna subtly try to change his mind. And that’s pretty iffy. Concealing her motives and trying to passively change his mind until he gets to the point where she’s sure he’ll say yes.
tl, dr: Joyce’s motives are still to break up Raidah and Jacob so she can have Jacob to herself, she’s just using a method that’s more passive and with more plausible deniability, but even so she’s still at least partly to blame for what happens next
I don’t think Joyce is totally aware that she’s flirting. She’s having fun with the religious debates and may not really admit to herself that she’s flirting with him.
In their last encounter, sure. I would have bought that. Though given how quickly she jumped away when they ran into Raidah, she was feeling guilty about something.
Now? After Joe’s revelation that he and Sarah thought she had a chance with Jacob and her reaction to that, as well as the last smirk when she told Sarah not to apologize for her scheme – she knows exactly what she’s up to.
And situations like these are why I love dumbingofage so much. The situations the characters are in are common, everyday ones, and they’re framed in such a way that’s amazingly complex, where they are open to interpretation with no right or wrong answer or clear “good guy” or “bad guy.”
I think the reason I’m okay with Joyce flirting around is the level of Jacob’s commitment. He has a girlfriend, yeah, but a girlfriend is not a wife (or even a fiancee).
She’s only “tricking” him if she’s misrepresenting something. She’s not, really, no more so than any young woman who’s crushing on a dude at least.
As someone who has been in a position similar to Raidah’s, I disagree.
Me and him were only dating (and had been for two years), and we weren’t the best for each other. When I found out that he had been seeing another woman behind my back, I was devastated nonetheless.
I was in a monogamous relationship and I met the woman and knew they were friends. I trusted him.
I enjoy Joyce as a character, and I think she’s a better match for Jacob than Raidah, but her intended goal is awful. Jacob’s not innocent, but his intentions as of right now are just to have a friend. Hers are not.
Apologies if I’ve come off as rude. I feel very strongly about this subject and a lot of old wounds are being opened by the amount of people who think that this is an okay thing to do to someone.
I think we all need to credit Jacob with more agency in this. He is actively befriending and cultivating a relationship and connection with someone who he is attracted to, who is attracted to him, while being in a monogamous relationship. HE IS THE ONE IN A RELATIONSHIP. If he is concerned about developing feelings, leading Joyce on, crossing lines or cheating on Raidah, then HE is the one who is obligated to distance emotionally. Which is not to say that what Joyce is doing is a good idea, given that it is likely someone will get hurt. But I think it is BS to just blame Joyce like Jacob has no control or no choice in his feelings or actions. It kinda buys into this “temptress” narrative that blames women for men’s behavior.
I’d blame both of them, but Joyce is the one we’ve seen actively planning this. First on Sarah’s behalf and now on her own. I blame Joyce more because we know she knows what’s happening.
We haven’t seen any sign of that from Jacob. As far as we know, he’s oblivious. He’s talked to his girlfriend about hanging out with Joyce. Unlike Joyce he showed no signs of concern when they met her after church. At some point, he’ll figure it out and that’s when we’ll see how he reacts.
Of course, by that time it’ll likely be too late to prevent the melodrama. 🙂
I will now hear all past and future alt text lines in Timon’s voice. Thank you, Willis.
To be honest, I feel like in all this discussion about the morality of Joyce’s actions, Jacob and Raidah’s relationship has been really overstated. All signs in the comic indicate that they’ve been dating a couple/few weeks tops. This is hardly “committed relationship” territory for college-aged people. If Jacob ends up feeling like he wants to break things off with Raidah, it’s not like he’s destroying some long romantic history. I bet they haven’t even had time to go on more than 5 “actual dates”
That’s a couple weeks less at most than any of our couples. Longer than Becky and Dina – Jacob brought Raidah to the party where they first kissed.
So, no problems if anyone was trying to break any of them up, right?
I’m not saying this to condone Joyce’s actions or motives, I just mean in the specific circumstances of Jacob and Raidah, it’s not like the two of them are exactly head over heels for each other and the only time I’ve seen either of them mention something long term, it was Raidah talking about keeping Jacob on the “right path” to her friends.
Either way, if Joyce actually sways Jacob then his newish relationship wasn’t gonna work out in the first place.
And that’s the part I don’t get. The “if she sways him, it wouldn’t have worked anyways.” Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe without this added stress at an early stage it would have solidified into something more lasting.
I doubt it in this case, since we know how Raidah views it, but Joyce doesn’t know that, so that can’t really be used to judge the morality of her actions.
Agreed, and more importantly, the sense I get from Raidah is that Jacob isn’t a legitimate relationship, but a power move and trophy to gain prestige on campus.
Does that make Joyce and Jacob a good combination? Not necessarily. Jacob is too “goody-goody”, and too much of a perfectionist for his portrayal to be reality. I’d fully expect beneath his Mr. Rogers persona, there’s something else behind the scenes, a reason he seems so bland and driven.
Otherwise, there’s just no room for Jacob’s character to grow, which, while that can work, is boring as hell.
Joe, on the other hand, has some interest in Joyce, has dimension and growth potential as a character, while simultaneously being just unpolished enough as a character that we’d get the inner turmoil instead of external factors that cause the conflict to forming a romance (similar to Han and Leia in “Empire Strikes Back”).
…And they don’t have a clue!
Personally I think it is incumbent on the one actually in the relationship to be a faithful partner rather than on everyone around to guard it for them. Jacob has at every stage so far both encouraged and reciprocated Joyce’s fliting. Joyce is responsible for her own actions but not for Jacob’s.
And yes I had a partner cheat on me before. I blame him for cheating rather than coming clean and dumping me because I didn’t want to move as fast as him. Not the one he cheated with. Cuz ultimately he was a grown ass adult. And so is Jacob.
While I do personally think what Joyce is doing is immoral (if only because she is aware they’re in a relationship and chooses to disregard it in a way that completely dismisses Raidah, even refusing to acknowledge she is his girlfriend at this point in time), if Jacob is seriously flirting with her, I will be FAR MORE angry with Jacob because what the fuck.
How is it wrong to offer alternatives and question dating someone just because you were with that person first? Isn’t the whole point of dating and courtship to poke and prod those assumptions, to test whether your theory (being in an exclusive relationship with someone) holds water?
Maybe flirting with Joyce may be inappropriate for Jacob without declaration to Raidah, but realizing whether or not he’d be happy long-term with Raidah or saying he wants to date others and see what fits isn’t wrong at all. Jacob is not an exclusive possession to be used and coveted, but another human being who also has wants and desires that he should be allowed to investigate until he explicitly says he isn’t interested in others.
You don’t blame car salesmen or insurance agents for selling their wares to someone who’s already a car owner or insurance customer.
car salesmen don’t exactly have a good reputation either.
and no, that’s not necessarily the point of dating.
and oh god why are we commenting on old posts, this is stupid…
I forgot but Joyce and Jacob are children. Raidah is the older one but barely an adult
Jacob is in Sarah’s classes, so he’s a sophomore too which means he’s almost certainly over 18 – which is to say a legal adult.
Joyce I think probably is a legal child at this point, but at 17 she can be expected to act with integrity (while making allowances for a lack of life experience). Which is to say: It’s ok to be naive and make mistakes, it’s not ok to intentionally violate Wheaton’s law. What makes Joyce a likeable character isn’t that she’s perfect, but that she learns and works to be better.
I’d hold Jacob and Raidah to the same standards cuz yeah uni students are generally adults but don’t have anything approaching the same adulting experience that someone like me (a 30YO) has. I expect a certain level of fuckup from young people just due to lack of life experience (case in point: Back when i was a TA and very naively agreed to meet a student alone to “review his paper” that he’d failed. I had no bad intent, but HE had watched too much porn and gotten ideas from it and boy that was three months of mortification I could’ve done without).
YES
YESSSS
JOYCE CAN *GET IT*
Holy cheesesnacks, is Joyce FLIRTING?
FLITERERS
Is it just me or does Joyce wear extremely tight, form-fitting blue jeans? I mean it’s very attractive, but man that takes commitment. I assume it’s not particularly comfortable, especially sitting. O_o
I admire the things people do to look sexy. I am not so strong!
Also I’m just now realizing… the random avatar assigned to me might be the perfect choice!
Gravatar, you rock!