I dunno, remember the wipeboard bandit scheme? Literally nobody would have figured it out if not for her self-admission, and even then people doubted her.
Honestly don’t understand your dig at Amber/Amazi here. Yes, she has mental illness but that isn’t really relevant to her figuring out the ding ding dong bandit.
Also not sure why you are saying she is living a fantasy life. That implies delusions, of which I see no evidence of. I mean, it would still be an uncalled for comment even if she did experience psychosis – shouldn’t demean someone for having a mental illness and since her mental illness isn’t relevant hard to read it as anything but that.
I mean, her mental illness may have helped her figure
Joyce really needs…something…to happen over this (if shes going to keep meddling) something major like losing a friendship or seeing emotionally wrecked before she realises what shes doing
Be fun getting to that point though so theres that
And I just spent the last five minutes giggling like a schoolgirl at the phrase “hot, sticky Jesus” while alternatingly trying to figure out what it means. so…there’s that.
Wait, what does Joyce need to see consequences over again? O.o I’m sure I’m following what she’s doing wrong, did I forget a boundary being set somewhere?
Thats not the point. Deliberately trying to break up a couple is not good behaviour for anyone even if think theres a “better” fit. Jacob and Joyce are not a good fit because Jacob and Joyce are at different levels of maturity.
Jacob wants to get ahead in his studies, hes turned down free sex and partying to do well and if he got involved with Joyce then he’d be, by default, involved in all the issues with Joyces friends and he’d help because hes a good guy but it’d affect his studies
Once Joyce matures a little and gets over the whole “live happily every after” thing then maybe, if Jacob is singl, they can get together but now wouldn’t be good for either of them
Deliberately trying to break up a couple is sometimes good behavior. A lot of couples suck. Means and motivations matter though, and we don’t know those yet, so it’s all up in the air.
Agreed, we currently don’t know Joyce’s motives for still being interested in Jacob.
It could be she agrees with Sarah and wants to break up Jacob and Raidah (which would be rather immoral, but doesn’t seem like Joyce’s ‘style’ per say).
It could be that Joyce just wants that booty for herself (understandable, I mean just look at Jacobs bod and personality, but still mildly evil and as Joyce is the most perfect cinnamon bun, probably not her motivation)
If I was to take a guess, she has a different motivation, it could well be she still wants to took Jacob up with Sarah, something we’ve seen she’s already plotting to do, and since she’s unfazed by Sarah’s underhanded schemes there’s no reason to believe she wouldn’t continue to do so. In all likelyhood it’s possible she’ll just get more dastardly at that objectiive, but again, just a guess.
I mean, if they were abusive or seriously toxic, breaking them up by talking to the abused party (or both if its toxic) about your concerns or by calling the police to have a violent party arrested would be okay, but this is not that.
It’s easier, lazier, and all around less stressful to not interfere in someone else’s relationships. ..there is absolutely no inherent “better” or “worse” to it, anymore than there is to any other (general sense) relationship interaction. The specific circumstances, the type of bonds one has with the individual, and manner of one’s approach all dictate the merits of social interactions.
Honestly, family (and those we consider like family) meddle in our relationships all the time and, assuming we have healthy relationships with them and healthy mental states ourselves, that’s always a good thing. I mean, in a “trusted, beloved second set of eyes” sense, not a “meddling, never-satisfied mother-in-law stereotype” sense.
If one thinks lack of input in relationships is an absolute, then that indicates that all of one’s relationships- family, friend, or romantic- had been shallow up to the point where one has that consideration. Or, as a more hopeful alternative, that someone simply didn’t think things through all the way.
As far as “throw people together because we think they’d go well together (as friends or otherwise)”, that’s something we do all the time. We’re just typically less convoluted in our intentions and emphatic about the pushing than Joyce is likely to be. The line that one can cross is at the point where one engages in something that’s actively detrimental to someone else- anything before that is just shades of the same approach we use in anything.
Doesn’t mean Joyce’s approach is mature, just that it isn’t harmful to anyone. In fact, since everyone involved is capable of making their own decisions in the matter, it may be a good thing, since broadening our horizons and getting to know unlikely people is generally a good thing for us. And, at the point where things get problematic, we’re capable of cutting off contact.
Basically, being used to having basic maturity and interacting with those that have similar, one finds that the thing one SHOULD be lazy and dismissive of is how others approach their relationships. Because, really, it’s their business. So long as noone is being manipulated [and no, this doesn’t count as manipulation. Manipulative motivation does not equate to manipulative action.] or hurt, we’ve no concern to have about it. And, y’know, when they are? Hey, guess what. We can meddle, if we feel we’ve justification to.
Trying to help someone out of a toxic relationship – or help them realize it’s toxic, can be a good thing, though risky. It can easily backfire, if they aren’t ready and cut you off, leaving them with even less support.
Trying to destroy someone else’s relationship for selfish motives is wrong, regardless of how you go about it. Some methods are of course worse than others, but it’s still harmful. Relationships blowing up hurt. Even a failed attempt, if it has any effect at all, is likely to cause a bunch of painful relationship drama.
And Joyce is almost certainly going to be manipulative here, if she continues, which judging by that last panel she will. How effective she’ll be is another question, of course. At the very least, she’ll be seeing him under false pretenses – pretending it’s just as friends, while actually trying to get him to like her romantically.
You really can’t actually destroy someone else’s healthy relationship though. The people in the relationship are the ones who dictate how it functions. Sure outside pressures can influence behavior, but if they’re able to influence behavior in a direction that damages the relationship, then the relationship was not healthy to begin with.
This is just speaking as someone who has been married for a while in a very strong relationship. In a healthy relationship, when you encounter problems, you talk about them and work on them together. Literally no outside person could break me and my husband up because no part of us, even subconsciously, has any desire for that to happen no matter who else comes along.
@autogatos, that’s bullshit. A healthy relationship absolutely CAN be destroyed by outside factors
Trauma, for example. Many couples fall apart after something terrible happens to one or both people. Not because they weren’t a healthy couple, but because it put more strain on the relationship than they could handle, or it screwed up the dynamic in a way they were unable to adapt to, or simply because it changed things too much.
Claiming that a relationship is only healthy if it cannot be destroyed from without is like saying a body is only healthy if you cannot be killed except by old age. It’s completely ridiculous.
Now, there are ways that Joyce could seek a romantic relationship with Jacob which would be honest and ethical, and ways that would not. if Joyce doesn’t attempt to manipulate Jacob, and is honest about her intentions, I don’t see a ethical problem with it
Attempting to poison his existing relationship with Raidah in some way would be shitty of her. And yes, the possibility of her being able to that would not prove the relationship was unhealthy, much less make it ethical. Imagine if someone tried to poison HER relationship with one of her male friends by trying to subtly compare them to Ryan. That would not in any way show that friendship was unhealthy if it worked, or be okay.
So therefore there is no blame, no problem with anyone attempting to do so? They’ll just fail if it’s a good relationship and if they don’t it wasn’t and deserved to be broken anyway. Kind of self justifying.
I disagree. There is a moral component to even making the attempt. Succeed or fail, it’s still an attempt to harm.
And it could well be that a relationship might be having some problems, but left to themselves, they’d be able to work through them and build a stronger one, but with the extra pressure at the right time …
Well personally I’ve experienced trauma that put a strain on my relationship, and we still worked through it. I’m not going to make a claim to the universality of that though as that’s a much more complex issue, and isn’t what I was talking about anyway.
I didn’t say outside factors can never damage a healthy relationship. I said an outside person trying to break up the relationship because they have the hots for one of the people in it isn’t going to succeed if the relationship is healthy.
Even if they resort to lies/manipulation (which is obviously wrong, not saying it’s not) because in a healthy established relationship you trust and communicate with your partner enough to know when you’re being lied to about them. If some girl who had the hots for my husband tried to tell him awful things about me to convince him to leave me…it wouldn’t work because we’re close enough to not buy into that kind of BS.
@thejeff I didn’t say there’s never any blame or problem with it. Obviously lying and manipulation are wrong regardless of the outcome. I’m just saying if it’s a healthy relationship, it won’t work.
And if the person (we’ll call them person A) DOESN’T resort to lying or manipulation, but just behaves as a kind friend while secretly carrying a torch for someone, I don’t see what’s wrong with that. That’s life. People can’t control how they feel.
And eventually based on this friendship person B decides they’d rather be with this person instead, then clearly their relationship wasn’t that healthy/strong.
And it’s probably worth saying, to be clear, I’m not saying any of this to defend past personal behavior. I’ve never entered a relationship by “stealing” someone away from their previous girlfriend. I’m just speaking as someone who has had a lot of awful, and finally one good, relationships.
Again, you’re saying “if I can kill it, it’s not murder”. Relationships can be healthy, but not PERFECTLY SO. Yes, a healthy couple talks to each other about their feelings before things get out of hand, making them less vulnerable to outside manipulation.
But not everyone is GOOD at that. Teenagers especially are still learning, but so are adults. We have issues that can make us slow to realize something is wrong or how to handle it. We accumulate baggage. We have changes in how we interpret each other’s behavior that can ruin a relationship if exploited. New couples haven’t yet learned to read each other well to avert stupid problems from blowing up into serious ones.
“Healthy” isn’t a binary state for relationships. There’s a whole spectrum. Not ALL of the healthy end is impervious to outside interference by other human beings. I cannot stand that kind of absolutist, black-and-white nonsense. It hurts people and gets used to blame them or ignore their pain.
I’m sorry but I have a hard time believing a relationship in which someone is willing to cheat is healthy. THAT kind of attitude hurts people, and causes people to forgive unacceptable behavior or stay in relationships that are absolutely wrong for them. Just because a lot of people’s relationships are shitty doesn’t mean we should lower the bar for what constitutes “healthy” to the point where willingness to cheat is considered within the spectrum of healthy.
I’m not saying “healthy” is too high of a bar to set. I’m saying perfect is. And I never once mentioned cheating. One person getting caught cheating is not the only thing that can cause people to break up, and it’s not what I meant by outside manipulation
Convincing one person the other is cheating would be closer to what I meant. If the seed of doubt can be planted, it can be hard to uproot, since you can’t prove a negative. I mentioned that hypothetical with Joyce for a reason. It’s entirely possible to prey on other, less extreme fears, doubts, or insecurities to taint how they interpret someone’s behavior. Mike pulls that kind of shit all the time, and it can damage or destroy perfectly healthy relationships.
THAT’S the kind of shit I’m talking about. No cheating or even temptation is necessary
Speaking as a married adult in a very healthy relationship:
We have a tendency as a society to place most of the blame on “the other woman” whenever a man is unfaithful instead of acknowledging that the woman was NOT a sorceress, did not magically control him, he made his decision to cheat or leave his partner of his own free will, and being that HE’S the one actually in the relationship, most of the blame for “ruining” it should really be placed with him.
If Joyce lies or manipulates Jacob to break up his relationship, yes that’s bad, but again, he still is the one making the choice. And if all Joyce does is behave in a friendly manner towards him like she’s done so far, she’s not doing anything wrong, even if her motives are to “steal” him, because he is not an inanimate object with no conscious will, he is, again, the person in the relationship who can choose how he’s going to behave. If her friendly behavior is enough to get Jacob to leave Raidah or cheat on her, that’s on him, and clearly the relationship wasn’t that strong or healthy to begin with if that’s the choice he makes.
If someone flirted with my husband, sure, I’d be cranky with them, but it wouldn’t really be an issue because he’d shut them down because we have a healthy relationship. If your relationship is healthy, no person outside it can actually break it up.
His responsibility. And hers. And she is lying – by omission if nothing else.
And it would be the same if it wasn’t “the other woman”, but the woman leaving for “the other man”. Very often of course, the man who’s being unfaithful is often not being seduced but is the one off doing the seducing.
Nonetheless, don’t try to mess around with people in relationships. It’s not cool.
So you think that every single time a person develops feelings for a friend, they should immediately tell them, or end the friendship if that friend is in a relationship, because to not do so would be lying by omission and would be horribly wrong?
Joyce doesn’t owe Raidah anything. Jacob is a big boy and can make his own mind up about things. If Joyce and Jacob enjoy each others company, what happens is what happens. I kind of doubt you’ll see Joyce talking Raidah down or Jacob reacting well if she does. But Joyce putting her best flirtation game on, absolutely fair.
No, no it is not. Don’t flirt with people in relationships. Joyce may not owe Raidah does, but Jacob made a commitment (granted, not the hugest commitment in the world – they’ve been dating for a couple weeks) and Joyce should respect that instead of trying to either get him to break up with her or cheat. Just because Jacob can make his own decisions doesn’t mean its right to try to break up the relationship to get with him.
What do you define as “flirting?” Some people might consider being nice and funny and friendly flirting. The only thing that defines whether or not it’s “flirting” is how the person feels, so by this logic Joyce should just not be allowed to interact with Jacob in a friendly manner ever because god forbid it damage his relationship to spend time with another girl.
Seriously, if hanging out with another girl who secretly has a crush on you is enough to make you abandon your current relationship, your current relationship didn’t stand a chance and that’s ALL on you, not on the person with the crush.
And for the record, if they were married I’d view it a bit differently, but this is a college relationship that has existed for a few weeks…it’s not exactly the most serious commitment, even if it might seem like it to them at the time. I’m not saying that gives Joyce a free pass to do whatever she wants, but I also don’t think she’s wrong in crushing on him and hoping things might go her way.
I already regret even thinking about this, but Joyce would probably have better smelling farts if she were a more adventurous eater. Most of the ‘low hanging fruit’ of Weird Food is vegetables (Joyce will probably try asparagus before she tries sweetbread, so to speak) and BROADLY SPEAKING meat tends towards worse smelling farts than vegetables. Put together, a more adventurous diet would PROBABLY contain less meat if she’s still eating the same amount of calories, and thus would PROBABLY produce less smelly farts depending on exactly what she’d eaten for whichever previous day.
Also, does anyone know any good monasteries for me to join in penance for this comment?
I’m on a mostly veggie diet, and have definitely noticed when I end up eating meat, the farts are WAY worse. So THIS COMMENT made me laugh out loud and it’s near 8.30am here, so that’s started my day right!
If the plan is to break them up, maybe. But for Joyce it was never about the breakup. That was merely a necessary step to getting Jacob together with Sarah.
It would’ve been shittier of Sarah to break them up for herself instead of Joyce, but that’s because she didn’t even want a relationship with him. Joyce wants a relationship, and assumes Sarah does too. Joyce trying to date Jacob wouldn’t actually be worse than trying to get him to date Sarah. It’d actually be LESS manipulative than before, since it’s not as if she’s been faking interest in him up until now.
At some point she ought to tell him about her romantic interest in him, but exactly when that becomes something she’s obligated to tell him is murky.
Trying to sink someone else’s relationship is shitty.
At least before, she was trying to do for her friend, to make someone else happy.
Doing it for herself is just selfish. So being shitty already, then adding selfishness is being shittier.
is anyone else having issues accessing the latest comic? when I type dumbing of age dot com it takes me to Faz’s mom, I can click next on that to access yesterday’s strip; but it doesn’t let me come to this one
I can only access this if I go to the archive and click on today’s date
I’ve always had cache issues on windows, but not that bad; normally the main site shows me the comic after 5-10m (but yesterday’s comic won’t have a link to the new one for ages). lately I’ve been using the rss feed links instead, but that also sometimes craps out around update time.
Give it a mild try and whichever outcome results state that was your intended plan all along. Like the grape juice Joyce, it’s worked on Jacob before it could totally work again. That’s how science works, for once in your life believe in science.
So lets take bets, Joyce is now actually interested in Jacob and she’s going to keep trying to get with him despite Sarah saying she doesn’t have to or, she’s going back to her original plan of trying to get Sarah and Jacob together or none of the above. Place your bets now, we’ll find out the answer in the next 2 months to 2 years depending on how long Wilis wants to torture us.
Considering joyce now has the bolstered confidence of Joe thinking she can pull it off, it wouldn’t surprise me if she’s deciding to officially make a play at Jacob
Joyce is now actually interested in Jacob and she’s going to keep trying to get with him
This one, for sure. Although now that she’s actively trying, it will all go horribly awry. Because… pick one of a number of reasons: Joyce being too “thirsty”, or otherwise too much “herself”, which is off-putting; Jacob breaks up with Raidah and doesn’t want any relationship for a while; other various Diabolus ex Willis.
I’m foreseeing a fairly nasty experience when Raidah starts fighting back. Of course, that will actually backfire on her; Jacob isn’t likely to be happy with her being mean to sweet little Joyce.
And then Raidah explains exactly what Joyce has been up to. Jacob believes her because he trusts her and whoops, he is no longer speaking to Joyce leading her to rethink her beliefs about boundaries.
Well, maybe. Or maybe Jacob decides he likes his relationship with Joyce more than he likes his relationship with Raidah. We will have to see, won’t we?
In which case he’ll just be even more pissed when he finds out Raidah was right. And Joyce can go take a flying fuck at the moon because that’s absolutely abysmal behaviour.
yeah… I don’t even want to know what she’s thinking. I’ll just watch it unfold painfully and slowly in between less painful comics… like the mike/ethan ones… >.<
Isn’t that exactly one of this universes Jacobs primary issues with life in general? He’s tired of everyone wanting to fuck him? Seriously though if he’s that bothered by it dude should spend less time in the gym and more eatin donuts because if I knew a guy built like that I would have to honestly tell him that while I could promise to never actually make a play for him… there’s nothing I can do about his starring role in my fantasy life.
I don’t think that’s quite Jacob’s deal. He’s perfectly fine with fucking (or at least some kind of sexual fooling around), he just doesn’t like that being the main reason he’s pursued. (See his reactions to Sarah and to Roz)
Joyce is largely pursuing him because of the physical attraction, even if she’s afraid to fuck. Seems like there might be more there, but a large part of her motivation is the very kind of physical attraction he’s not so thrilled by.
Joyce isn’t interested in him solely for his body. He’s literally the ONLY person she’s been able to talk to about religion (still a major part of her life and hugely important to her) since she started college, and it was Jacob who helped her find the first (somewhat) positive experience with church since going home and finding that her old church was filled with Toedads waiting to happen and other monsters.
There was also that moment where he talked about being uncomfortable with being objectified and finding intimacy a bit scary, where he was super nice to Joyce and made her feel she wasn’t a freak for being afraid of sex.
She absolutely is not only or even mainly interested in his body
Not only and I’m likely overemphasizing it, but the physical attraction is strongly and obviously there every time she talks about him and why he’d be so good for Sarah.
Point being that his problems with physical attraction aren’t negated by her being afraid of sex.
Oh, now I am fairly sure that Joyce has come to her own conclusions about Jacob. Raidah and her feud with Sarah (and vice versa) are seemingly no longer an issue. She’s doing this now because she wants him.
Huh, it only just occurred to me now that seeing Joyce in these couple of strips means we don’t get to see what happened after Joyce asked Ethan about who he was making out with. That bums me out a little.
I think that she’s thinking: “Aha! I’m being super cunning and no-one knows my secret plan!” They do know it, by the way. I think that everyone involved in the whole thing surrounding Joyce and Jacob knows it (although a few literally can’t believe it or at least take it seriously).
I suspect we are about to see a side of Joyce that no one has even suspected exists! She may, in fact, have far more of an “A Game” than anyone would believe…
Joyce is smiling like the Grinch, or Tim Curry. This isn’t going to end well. Is she now planning to get Jacob for herself? Anti Joyce is becoming active?
I think the thing that bugs me the most about this page is the fact that Sarah is and has been attempting to LEGIT APOLOGIZE and Joyce refuses it and keeps interrupting her. Okay, she’s scheming and we’ll see what happens because people do this sort of stuff all the time, especially since Sarah’s probably only apologizing because she got caught/rat out…
…but like…she’s TRYING TO APOLOGIZE. 🙁 That says a lot to me.
I’m not sure it’s so much refusing to accept the apology as dismissing the need, because she’s going ahead with Operation: Breakup anyway, just with a different endgame.
Maybe I am projecting, but I don’t think Joyce is going to do much of anything to break them up other than be friends with Jacob. I think the smile is just her expressions of realizing that she likes him. Now, no denying that she was trying to break up his relationship previously, but the extent of her mad schemes was talking about how great Sarah was. That’s it. Don’t over-estimate her nefarious plotting skills. More likely she’ll watch to see if their relationship ends on it’s own and try to swoop in afterward. I actually predict that Raidah will do something to Joyce that will anger Jacob.
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Joyce Performs a Scheme
Oh god she is so bad at those.
Joyce is bringing her A-game. I don’t know what her A-game is, but I have no doubt that it’s better than Sarah’s.
Better than Raidah’s? I’m not sure about that.
I dunno, remember the wipeboard bandit scheme? Literally nobody would have figured it out if not for her self-admission, and even then people doubted her.
Ambmazi-Girl figured it out.
Yes, the mentally ill person who lives out a vivid fantasy life in the real world, managed to figure out the insanity that was Joyce.
..somehow I don’t think that provides any convincing evidence that anyone else could figure Joyce’s schemes out. 😛
Honestly don’t understand your dig at Amber/Amazi here. Yes, she has mental illness but that isn’t really relevant to her figuring out the ding ding dong bandit.
Also not sure why you are saying she is living a fantasy life. That implies delusions, of which I see no evidence of. I mean, it would still be an uncalled for comment even if she did experience psychosis – shouldn’t demean someone for having a mental illness and since her mental illness isn’t relevant hard to read it as anything but that.
I mean, her mental illness may have helped her figure
Heh, sentence fragment at the end is not supposed to be there.
I think I prefer “Ding Dong Desperado.”
i’ll do ya one better
Would it be premature for me to guess that It’s Not Very Effective…?
Bad Joyce!… I mean, at least she’s doing it on her own now and not being manipulated, but that just means badder Joyce!
Joyce really needs…something…to happen over this (if shes going to keep meddling) something major like losing a friendship or seeing emotionally wrecked before she realises what shes doing
Be fun getting to that point though so theres that
The consequences shouldn’t be so severe, though. Maybe just enough for her to realize Jacob is too “hot, sticky Jesus” for her widening world view.
How about ‘Jacob stops talking to her until she realizes what she did wrong, apologizes, and makes a good faith effort to respect boundaries more’?
Yeah, that.
Or at least gives her a good serious talking to.
And I just spent the last five minutes giggling like a schoolgirl at the phrase “hot, sticky Jesus” while alternatingly trying to figure out what it means. so…there’s that.
Wait, what does Joyce need to see consequences over again? O.o I’m sure I’m following what she’s doing wrong, did I forget a boundary being set somewhere?
*not sure
Jacob and Raidah aren’t married, and Joyce and Jacob *do* fit pretty well, so eh.
Thats not the point. Deliberately trying to break up a couple is not good behaviour for anyone even if think theres a “better” fit. Jacob and Joyce are not a good fit because Jacob and Joyce are at different levels of maturity.
Jacob wants to get ahead in his studies, hes turned down free sex and partying to do well and if he got involved with Joyce then he’d be, by default, involved in all the issues with Joyces friends and he’d help because hes a good guy but it’d affect his studies
Once Joyce matures a little and gets over the whole “live happily every after” thing then maybe, if Jacob is singl, they can get together but now wouldn’t be good for either of them
Deliberately trying to break up a couple is sometimes good behavior. A lot of couples suck. Means and motivations matter though, and we don’t know those yet, so it’s all up in the air.
Agreed, we currently don’t know Joyce’s motives for still being interested in Jacob.
It could be she agrees with Sarah and wants to break up Jacob and Raidah (which would be rather immoral, but doesn’t seem like Joyce’s ‘style’ per say).
It could be that Joyce just wants that booty for herself (understandable, I mean just look at Jacobs bod and personality, but still mildly evil and as Joyce is the most perfect cinnamon bun, probably not her motivation)
If I was to take a guess, she has a different motivation, it could well be she still wants to took Jacob up with Sarah, something we’ve seen she’s already plotting to do, and since she’s unfazed by Sarah’s underhanded schemes there’s no reason to believe she wouldn’t continue to do so. In all likelyhood it’s possible she’ll just get more dastardly at that objectiive, but again, just a guess.
No, it’s not. Ever. Maybe one day you’ll understand why.
I mean, if they were abusive or seriously toxic, breaking them up by talking to the abused party (or both if its toxic) about your concerns or by calling the police to have a violent party arrested would be okay, but this is not that.
Yes, sometimes it is. I’m pretty old, so I doubt I’ll be changing my mind on that one.
It’s easier, lazier, and all around less stressful to not interfere in someone else’s relationships. ..there is absolutely no inherent “better” or “worse” to it, anymore than there is to any other (general sense) relationship interaction. The specific circumstances, the type of bonds one has with the individual, and manner of one’s approach all dictate the merits of social interactions.
Honestly, family (and those we consider like family) meddle in our relationships all the time and, assuming we have healthy relationships with them and healthy mental states ourselves, that’s always a good thing. I mean, in a “trusted, beloved second set of eyes” sense, not a “meddling, never-satisfied mother-in-law stereotype” sense.
If one thinks lack of input in relationships is an absolute, then that indicates that all of one’s relationships- family, friend, or romantic- had been shallow up to the point where one has that consideration. Or, as a more hopeful alternative, that someone simply didn’t think things through all the way.
As far as “throw people together because we think they’d go well together (as friends or otherwise)”, that’s something we do all the time. We’re just typically less convoluted in our intentions and emphatic about the pushing than Joyce is likely to be. The line that one can cross is at the point where one engages in something that’s actively detrimental to someone else- anything before that is just shades of the same approach we use in anything.
Doesn’t mean Joyce’s approach is mature, just that it isn’t harmful to anyone. In fact, since everyone involved is capable of making their own decisions in the matter, it may be a good thing, since broadening our horizons and getting to know unlikely people is generally a good thing for us. And, at the point where things get problematic, we’re capable of cutting off contact.
Basically, being used to having basic maturity and interacting with those that have similar, one finds that the thing one SHOULD be lazy and dismissive of is how others approach their relationships. Because, really, it’s their business. So long as noone is being manipulated [and no, this doesn’t count as manipulation. Manipulative motivation does not equate to manipulative action.] or hurt, we’ve no concern to have about it. And, y’know, when they are? Hey, guess what. We can meddle, if we feel we’ve justification to.
..see how that loops around?
Motivation and means both matter.
Trying to help someone out of a toxic relationship – or help them realize it’s toxic, can be a good thing, though risky. It can easily backfire, if they aren’t ready and cut you off, leaving them with even less support.
Trying to destroy someone else’s relationship for selfish motives is wrong, regardless of how you go about it. Some methods are of course worse than others, but it’s still harmful. Relationships blowing up hurt. Even a failed attempt, if it has any effect at all, is likely to cause a bunch of painful relationship drama.
And Joyce is almost certainly going to be manipulative here, if she continues, which judging by that last panel she will. How effective she’ll be is another question, of course. At the very least, she’ll be seeing him under false pretenses – pretending it’s just as friends, while actually trying to get him to like her romantically.
You really can’t actually destroy someone else’s healthy relationship though. The people in the relationship are the ones who dictate how it functions. Sure outside pressures can influence behavior, but if they’re able to influence behavior in a direction that damages the relationship, then the relationship was not healthy to begin with.
This is just speaking as someone who has been married for a while in a very strong relationship. In a healthy relationship, when you encounter problems, you talk about them and work on them together. Literally no outside person could break me and my husband up because no part of us, even subconsciously, has any desire for that to happen no matter who else comes along.
@autogatos, that’s bullshit. A healthy relationship absolutely CAN be destroyed by outside factors
Trauma, for example. Many couples fall apart after something terrible happens to one or both people. Not because they weren’t a healthy couple, but because it put more strain on the relationship than they could handle, or it screwed up the dynamic in a way they were unable to adapt to, or simply because it changed things too much.
Claiming that a relationship is only healthy if it cannot be destroyed from without is like saying a body is only healthy if you cannot be killed except by old age. It’s completely ridiculous.
Now, there are ways that Joyce could seek a romantic relationship with Jacob which would be honest and ethical, and ways that would not. if Joyce doesn’t attempt to manipulate Jacob, and is honest about her intentions, I don’t see a ethical problem with it
Attempting to poison his existing relationship with Raidah in some way would be shitty of her. And yes, the possibility of her being able to that would not prove the relationship was unhealthy, much less make it ethical. Imagine if someone tried to poison HER relationship with one of her male friends by trying to subtly compare them to Ryan. That would not in any way show that friendship was unhealthy if it worked, or be okay.
So therefore there is no blame, no problem with anyone attempting to do so? They’ll just fail if it’s a good relationship and if they don’t it wasn’t and deserved to be broken anyway. Kind of self justifying.
I disagree. There is a moral component to even making the attempt. Succeed or fail, it’s still an attempt to harm.
And it could well be that a relationship might be having some problems, but left to themselves, they’d be able to work through them and build a stronger one, but with the extra pressure at the right time …
Well personally I’ve experienced trauma that put a strain on my relationship, and we still worked through it. I’m not going to make a claim to the universality of that though as that’s a much more complex issue, and isn’t what I was talking about anyway.
I didn’t say outside factors can never damage a healthy relationship. I said an outside person trying to break up the relationship because they have the hots for one of the people in it isn’t going to succeed if the relationship is healthy.
Even if they resort to lies/manipulation (which is obviously wrong, not saying it’s not) because in a healthy established relationship you trust and communicate with your partner enough to know when you’re being lied to about them. If some girl who had the hots for my husband tried to tell him awful things about me to convince him to leave me…it wouldn’t work because we’re close enough to not buy into that kind of BS.
@thejeff I didn’t say there’s never any blame or problem with it. Obviously lying and manipulation are wrong regardless of the outcome. I’m just saying if it’s a healthy relationship, it won’t work.
And if the person (we’ll call them person A) DOESN’T resort to lying or manipulation, but just behaves as a kind friend while secretly carrying a torch for someone, I don’t see what’s wrong with that. That’s life. People can’t control how they feel.
And eventually based on this friendship person B decides they’d rather be with this person instead, then clearly their relationship wasn’t that healthy/strong.
And it’s probably worth saying, to be clear, I’m not saying any of this to defend past personal behavior. I’ve never entered a relationship by “stealing” someone away from their previous girlfriend. I’m just speaking as someone who has had a lot of awful, and finally one good, relationships.
@autogatos
Again, you’re saying “if I can kill it, it’s not murder”. Relationships can be healthy, but not PERFECTLY SO. Yes, a healthy couple talks to each other about their feelings before things get out of hand, making them less vulnerable to outside manipulation.
But not everyone is GOOD at that. Teenagers especially are still learning, but so are adults. We have issues that can make us slow to realize something is wrong or how to handle it. We accumulate baggage. We have changes in how we interpret each other’s behavior that can ruin a relationship if exploited. New couples haven’t yet learned to read each other well to avert stupid problems from blowing up into serious ones.
“Healthy” isn’t a binary state for relationships. There’s a whole spectrum. Not ALL of the healthy end is impervious to outside interference by other human beings. I cannot stand that kind of absolutist, black-and-white nonsense. It hurts people and gets used to blame them or ignore their pain.
I’m sorry but I have a hard time believing a relationship in which someone is willing to cheat is healthy. THAT kind of attitude hurts people, and causes people to forgive unacceptable behavior or stay in relationships that are absolutely wrong for them. Just because a lot of people’s relationships are shitty doesn’t mean we should lower the bar for what constitutes “healthy” to the point where willingness to cheat is considered within the spectrum of healthy.
I’m not saying “healthy” is too high of a bar to set. I’m saying perfect is. And I never once mentioned cheating. One person getting caught cheating is not the only thing that can cause people to break up, and it’s not what I meant by outside manipulation
Convincing one person the other is cheating would be closer to what I meant. If the seed of doubt can be planted, it can be hard to uproot, since you can’t prove a negative. I mentioned that hypothetical with Joyce for a reason. It’s entirely possible to prey on other, less extreme fears, doubts, or insecurities to taint how they interpret someone’s behavior. Mike pulls that kind of shit all the time, and it can damage or destroy perfectly healthy relationships.
THAT’S the kind of shit I’m talking about. No cheating or even temptation is necessary
Speaking as a married adult in a very healthy relationship:
We have a tendency as a society to place most of the blame on “the other woman” whenever a man is unfaithful instead of acknowledging that the woman was NOT a sorceress, did not magically control him, he made his decision to cheat or leave his partner of his own free will, and being that HE’S the one actually in the relationship, most of the blame for “ruining” it should really be placed with him.
If Joyce lies or manipulates Jacob to break up his relationship, yes that’s bad, but again, he still is the one making the choice. And if all Joyce does is behave in a friendly manner towards him like she’s done so far, she’s not doing anything wrong, even if her motives are to “steal” him, because he is not an inanimate object with no conscious will, he is, again, the person in the relationship who can choose how he’s going to behave. If her friendly behavior is enough to get Jacob to leave Raidah or cheat on her, that’s on him, and clearly the relationship wasn’t that strong or healthy to begin with if that’s the choice he makes.
If someone flirted with my husband, sure, I’d be cranky with them, but it wouldn’t really be an issue because he’d shut them down because we have a healthy relationship. If your relationship is healthy, no person outside it can actually break it up.
His responsibility. And hers. And she is lying – by omission if nothing else.
And it would be the same if it wasn’t “the other woman”, but the woman leaving for “the other man”. Very often of course, the man who’s being unfaithful is often not being seduced but is the one off doing the seducing.
Nonetheless, don’t try to mess around with people in relationships. It’s not cool.
So you think that every single time a person develops feelings for a friend, they should immediately tell them, or end the friendship if that friend is in a relationship, because to not do so would be lying by omission and would be horribly wrong?
Joyce doesn’t owe Raidah anything. Jacob is a big boy and can make his own mind up about things. If Joyce and Jacob enjoy each others company, what happens is what happens. I kind of doubt you’ll see Joyce talking Raidah down or Jacob reacting well if she does. But Joyce putting her best flirtation game on, absolutely fair.
No, no it is not. Don’t flirt with people in relationships. Joyce may not owe Raidah does, but Jacob made a commitment (granted, not the hugest commitment in the world – they’ve been dating for a couple weeks) and Joyce should respect that instead of trying to either get him to break up with her or cheat. Just because Jacob can make his own decisions doesn’t mean its right to try to break up the relationship to get with him.
What do you define as “flirting?” Some people might consider being nice and funny and friendly flirting. The only thing that defines whether or not it’s “flirting” is how the person feels, so by this logic Joyce should just not be allowed to interact with Jacob in a friendly manner ever because god forbid it damage his relationship to spend time with another girl.
Seriously, if hanging out with another girl who secretly has a crush on you is enough to make you abandon your current relationship, your current relationship didn’t stand a chance and that’s ALL on you, not on the person with the crush.
And for the record, if they were married I’d view it a bit differently, but this is a college relationship that has existed for a few weeks…it’s not exactly the most serious commitment, even if it might seem like it to them at the time. I’m not saying that gives Joyce a free pass to do whatever she wants, but I also don’t think she’s wrong in crushing on him and hoping things might go her way.
We ONLY know that Joyce is scheming. We don’t know WHAT she’s scheming.
Maybe she’s gonna get Sarah and Amber together. Maybe she’s gonna get back at Sarah for tricking her. Maybe she’s gonna do a murder. WE DON’T KNOW
And as soon as the door closed, Joyce let out the biggest fart ever. From that day forth, Sarah knew to never mess with her again.
Aaaand I’m dead.
Okay, it wasn’t lethal, let’s not get carried away here. Girl won’t let the cheese touch her macaroni, how exotic can her diet be?
You’ll be surprised, Human meatsack, YOU’LL BE SURPRISED…
X__X
I already regret even thinking about this, but Joyce would probably have better smelling farts if she were a more adventurous eater. Most of the ‘low hanging fruit’ of Weird Food is vegetables (Joyce will probably try asparagus before she tries sweetbread, so to speak) and BROADLY SPEAKING meat tends towards worse smelling farts than vegetables. Put together, a more adventurous diet would PROBABLY contain less meat if she’s still eating the same amount of calories, and thus would PROBABLY produce less smelly farts depending on exactly what she’d eaten for whichever previous day.
Also, does anyone know any good monasteries for me to join in penance for this comment?
I’m on a mostly veggie diet, and have definitely noticed when I end up eating meat, the farts are WAY worse. So THIS COMMENT made me laugh out loud and it’s near 8.30am here, so that’s started my day right!
I noticed that as well although the frequency of my farts increased, I tried explaining to my wife why this was a good thing but she wasn’t having it…
You mean, you never realized the true reason that fart-obsessed Walky eats nothing but chicken mcnuggets? 😛
Butt-Tacos are made out of chicken-butts?
Benjamin Franklin covered this in his essay “Fart Proudly”.
you can look it up
Doc, That sounded to me like a new Joyce euphemism for hanky-panky. And I giggled.
HOW DARE
Use your powers for good Joyce, only for good….
Dun-dun-DUN!
what is that face for
Whuzzat smirk mean
I foresee no way Joyces issues with ignoring boundaries will cause a problem
so says the great zoltron.
…oh, wait, the machine’s busted.
Joyce Brown has planzzzz.
Why univerzzze hate Joyzzzzepinator?
ROFL
Time for some epic *speedwalking action*.
*plays “I Miss My Man (But My Aim Is Getting Better) on the hacked Muzak*
https://youtu.be/UwbqPPSUp90
Joyce…….. what are you thinking about?
Huh…wonder which walkyverss Joyce we’re talking about “-_-
The anti Joyce?
Row Row Fight the Power. Get those drills spinning!
I’m not sure, but I’m starting to suspect that she’s actually replaced her DoA self. It’s the only logical answer!
…or maybe I’m just addicted to alternate universe shenanigans.
I’m thinking Roomies!-era Joyce.
Guess she’ll be learning about boundaries the hard way then.
Also – Joyce, if you continue trying to break Jacob and Raidah up for Sarah, you’re still being super shitty, right?
I think she’s going to do it for herself, now. Which would be even shittier.
If the plan is to break them up, maybe. But for Joyce it was never about the breakup. That was merely a necessary step to getting Jacob together with Sarah.
It would’ve been shittier of Sarah to break them up for herself instead of Joyce, but that’s because she didn’t even want a relationship with him. Joyce wants a relationship, and assumes Sarah does too. Joyce trying to date Jacob wouldn’t actually be worse than trying to get him to date Sarah. It’d actually be LESS manipulative than before, since it’s not as if she’s been faking interest in him up until now.
At some point she ought to tell him about her romantic interest in him, but exactly when that becomes something she’s obligated to tell him is murky.
Trying to sink someone else’s relationship is shitty.
At least before, she was trying to do for her friend, to make someone else happy.
Doing it for herself is just selfish. So being shitty already, then adding selfishness is being shittier.
is anyone else having issues accessing the latest comic? when I type dumbing of age dot com it takes me to Faz’s mom, I can click next on that to access yesterday’s strip; but it doesn’t let me come to this one
I can only access this if I go to the archive and click on today’s date
Insert obligatory “Faz’s mom” joke.
I’ve always had cache issues on windows, but not that bad; normally the main site shows me the comic after 5-10m (but yesterday’s comic won’t have a link to the new one for ages). lately I’ve been using the rss feed links instead, but that also sometimes craps out around update time.
I’ve never had that issue here, but I have had similar problems with other comics. Refreshing the page usually brings up the new strip.
refreshing does not work 🙁 even if I close the window and my browser and start again, it just takes me to two days ago
Try hitting Shift+F5. That should make your browser ignore its cache and refresh the page.
I had this happen on my laptop yesterday, but once it loaded yesterday’s strip it was fine. The tablet shows the right comic, though.
Go for it Joyce.
Don’t go for it Joyce.
Split the difference. Half-ass it Joyce.
Give it a mild try and whichever outcome results state that was your intended plan all along. Like the grape juice Joyce, it’s worked on Jacob before it could totally work again. That’s how science works, for once in your life believe in science.
Interesting. I’m really curious what Joyce is up to here.
Panel two Sarah smile is…interesting
Panel seven Joyce smile is . . . disturbing.
I probably say this at least once a week during Joyce scenes, but that has to be my favorite Joyce expression. (The very last panel, ofc.)
Agreed. I don’t think we’ve ever seen Joyce looking quite like this before.
And I like it.
So lets take bets, Joyce is now actually interested in Jacob and she’s going to keep trying to get with him despite Sarah saying she doesn’t have to or, she’s going back to her original plan of trying to get Sarah and Jacob together or none of the above. Place your bets now, we’ll find out the answer in the next 2 months to 2 years depending on how long Wilis wants to torture us.
Considering joyce now has the bolstered confidence of Joe thinking she can pull it off, it wouldn’t surprise me if she’s deciding to officially make a play at Jacob
This one, for sure. Although now that she’s actively trying, it will all go horribly awry. Because… pick one of a number of reasons: Joyce being too “thirsty”, or otherwise too much “herself”, which is off-putting; Jacob breaks up with Raidah and doesn’t want any relationship for a while; other various Diabolus ex Willis.
I’m foreseeing a fairly nasty experience when Raidah starts fighting back. Of course, that will actually backfire on her; Jacob isn’t likely to be happy with her being mean to sweet little Joyce.
And then Raidah explains exactly what Joyce has been up to. Jacob believes her because he trusts her and whoops, he is no longer speaking to Joyce leading her to rethink her beliefs about boundaries.
Well, maybe. Or maybe Jacob decides he likes his relationship with Joyce more than he likes his relationship with Raidah. We will have to see, won’t we?
Hope not. I don’t want Joyce’s boundary issues rewarded.
I actually like the idea of Joyce and Jacob getting together, but not this path of getting there.
In which case he’ll just be even more pissed when he finds out Raidah was right. And Joyce can go take a flying fuck at the moon because that’s absolutely abysmal behaviour.
HAS IT BEEN LONG ENOUGH THAT ANTI-JOYCE JOKES ARE FUNNY AGAIN
I propose that this issue be solved dup-o-matically.
Thank you both.
When did they stop being funny?
Hard to pinpoint, but I’m sure one could take a shot in the dark…
I flinched and laughed.
Oh dear.
Sarah’s getting murdered on that elevator. Or perhaps baptized.
Swype keeps wanting to call her “Satan” instead of “Sarah.”
Auto-correcting Satan to Sarah?
Insert WH Press Secretary joke here.
*Sarah to Satan
Dang, I fumbled that ball.
Or DID you?
..I wish I had an evilly smirking Sarah gravatar right now. 🙁
No Joyce. Stop it. Stop that smirk.
yeah… I don’t even want to know what she’s thinking. I’ll just watch it unfold painfully and slowly in between less painful comics… like the mike/ethan ones… >.<
Sh’es thinking of Jacob’s Broad oiled chest.
Does Joyce want the booty?
She dooooooo!
ooooooooohhh she’s schemin
this was objectively a Bad Comment but it summed up my internal monologue pretty effectively, so
The smile at the end is super devious but… I like it 😈
That last face isn’t exactly :3c but it carries the same energies
it’s more like an uwu
A machination’s afoot.
Deviousness!
Jacob is the new Danny … said no one ever.
Danny fucking wishes he could be Jacob.
Danny wishes he could be fucking Jacob.
Truth be told, most people would wish they could be fucking Jacob.
Isn’t that exactly one of this universes Jacobs primary issues with life in general? He’s tired of everyone wanting to fuck him? Seriously though if he’s that bothered by it dude should spend less time in the gym and more eatin donuts because if I knew a guy built like that I would have to honestly tell him that while I could promise to never actually make a play for him… there’s nothing I can do about his starring role in my fantasy life.
You can treat him with a little more respect than victim-blaming. Sure, ogle him, but be prepared for the consequences of that action.
Guys don’t just get built to look sexy, some for us do it for things like building confidence and to be healthier.
Anyway if that’s Jacob’s deal what better partner for him then someone who’s afraid to fuck.
I don’t think that’s quite Jacob’s deal. He’s perfectly fine with fucking (or at least some kind of sexual fooling around), he just doesn’t like that being the main reason he’s pursued. (See his reactions to Sarah and to Roz)
Joyce is largely pursuing him because of the physical attraction, even if she’s afraid to fuck. Seems like there might be more there, but a large part of her motivation is the very kind of physical attraction he’s not so thrilled by.
Joyce isn’t interested in him solely for his body. He’s literally the ONLY person she’s been able to talk to about religion (still a major part of her life and hugely important to her) since she started college, and it was Jacob who helped her find the first (somewhat) positive experience with church since going home and finding that her old church was filled with Toedads waiting to happen and other monsters.
There was also that moment where he talked about being uncomfortable with being objectified and finding intimacy a bit scary, where he was super nice to Joyce and made her feel she wasn’t a freak for being afraid of sex.
She absolutely is not only or even mainly interested in his body
Not only and I’m likely overemphasizing it, but the physical attraction is strongly and obviously there every time she talks about him and why he’d be so good for Sarah.
Point being that his problems with physical attraction aren’t negated by her being afraid of sex.
Well this can only end in shenanigans.
I feel like that should be the subtitle of the comic.
I don’t know what she’s planning but I think it is not going to be good.
I mean I’m sure it’ll be good *drama* though.
You know what if we’re doing this might as well go all the way, fuck it I don’t care anymore and I’m glad neither does she.
I don’t remember the last time we saw Joyce smirk like that. Has she ever smirked like that?
Oh, now I am fairly sure that Joyce has come to her own conclusions about Jacob. Raidah and her feud with Sarah (and vice versa) are seemingly no longer an issue. She’s doing this now because she wants him.
it’s good to have her back
JOYCE NO
That smirk is worriesome
That moment when you realize you can just use a rocking chair or tie your step tracker to a fan, and the competition will be all yours.
Joyce hasn’t thrown herself into the Cragged Shame Pits of the Lustwolves, but she is planning to visit the lustwolf pups section of the petting zoo.
OOOOOH SHE’S TOTALLY IN FOR SARAHS PLAN ISNT SHE
And we’re back to Joyce attending college primarily to get her “Mrs.” degree. She’s got a lovely predator smile.
Not because it’s expected of her but because she wants to Hit that with the force of an Everest Class Dreadnought!
“Lady Joyce Brown is the deadliest woman in space!”
Oh dear, I can totally imagine Joyce starting to drool when she discovers games with romancable hot guys. “It’s not a sin because they are not REAL!”
For some reason, I see Joyce on the last panel and all I can think of is Boris Karloff narrating How The Grinch Stole Christmas.
“Then Joyce had an idea. An awful idea. Joyce had a wonderful, awful idea.”
They say the scope of her scheming grew three sizes that day..
Just in case anyone hasn’t guessed, Sarah’s smile in panel 2 means that she isn’t over her crush on Jacob.
well DUH!!
I’m sure she isn’t, but I think that smile is more of the “point of contention is here” kind.
“Boy this is awkward. We were just talking about you.”
GET IT, GIRL
GET YOU SOME
awwwwww sshheeeeeeeeeeeiiittt
Joyce gettin’ all Machiavellian
i’m already horrified
is walky somehow gonna find out about this and try to rope in jason
oh no
Huh, it only just occurred to me now that seeing Joyce in these couple of strips means we don’t get to see what happened after Joyce asked Ethan about who he was making out with. That bums me out a little.
I’ll just assume Ethan spontaneously combusted until we’re proven otherwise.
RIP Ethan, he was so young 🙁
Possibly, Ethan admitted it was Mike and Joyce walked off laughing. Because even Joyce knows what’s coming.
Joyce checkin’ out Jacob’s butt as the door shuts. I see you.
I think that she’s thinking: “Aha! I’m being super cunning and no-one knows my secret plan!” They do know it, by the way. I think that everyone involved in the whole thing surrounding Joyce and Jacob knows it (although a few literally can’t believe it or at least take it seriously).
I think Jacob’s oblivious. Everyone else, yeah.
They haven’t exactly been subtle.
Joyce is totally scheming to win the step-counting game… 😇
Plans within plans…
OH.
That looks more like Nega-Joyce than anything else.
The writing’s on the wall, Sixty feet high. In neon. Lock and load, Joyce.
I see someone reads a certain other webcomic.
I suspect we are about to see a side of Joyce that no one has even suspected exists! She may, in fact, have far more of an “A Game” than anyone would believe…
Anyone else contemplating the fact that when this webcomic started, fitbit-type products weren’t even on the market?
*sees last square*
…Joyce…what’re scheming Joyce?
Joyce is smiling like the Grinch, or Tim Curry. This isn’t going to end well. Is she now planning to get Jacob for herself? Anti Joyce is becoming active?
Yup, she either dies from a heart attack after her heart enlarges, or she starts singing Gilbert and Sullivan tunes.
Or Joyce dresses as Dr. Frankenfurther and sings about wanting Jacob’s butt.
I think the thing that bugs me the most about this page is the fact that Sarah is and has been attempting to LEGIT APOLOGIZE and Joyce refuses it and keeps interrupting her. Okay, she’s scheming and we’ll see what happens because people do this sort of stuff all the time, especially since Sarah’s probably only apologizing because she got caught/rat out…
…but like…she’s TRYING TO APOLOGIZE. 🙁 That says a lot to me.
I’m not sure it’s so much refusing to accept the apology as dismissing the need, because she’s going ahead with Operation: Breakup anyway, just with a different endgame.
I can’t tell if that smirk means she’s definitely going after Jacob, or if she’s planing on sending Sarah after him. Either way, I am intrigued.
Lil’ sis is back in the game.
Next up: Joyce and Jacob hit peak aerobic condition sublimating their sexual energy into power-walking.
I feel like people are overestimating Joyce’s ability to scheme. After all, she’s a freshman. A child.
Maybe I am projecting, but I don’t think Joyce is going to do much of anything to break them up other than be friends with Jacob. I think the smile is just her expressions of realizing that she likes him. Now, no denying that she was trying to break up his relationship previously, but the extent of her mad schemes was talking about how great Sarah was. That’s it. Don’t over-estimate her nefarious plotting skills. More likely she’ll watch to see if their relationship ends on it’s own and try to swoop in afterward. I actually predict that Raidah will do something to Joyce that will anger Jacob.
In this whole story, Jacob has his own agency. He will think about who makes him happy.
ok like.. I actually am on board with joyce/jacob
Oh, jeez, the Fall of Joyce.
GET THE DICK
GET THE DICK
DEVIOUS