Nah. Faz’s lack of empathy leaves him utterly incapable of understanding female emotional states, and little better in his understanding of males. The result would be postures and facial expressions that make no emotional sense in their contexts, and the comic book industry would never tolerate that.
A fatal exception WTF has occurred at 2018:8:03 in JOYCE.exe + J03XFAZ. The current worldview will be terminated.
* Press any bystander and run to terminate current social interaction.
* Press CMD+RUN+ESC again to restart your conversation in a different location. You will lose any unsaved self-respect in all social interactions.
Subject: Error. “Dear Joe stroke Faz, I am writing to inform you of an error which has broken out at the premises of…” No, that’s too formal. [deletes] “Dear Joe stroke Faz. Error, exclamation mark. Error, exclamation mark. Help Joyce, exclamation mark. 201 N Rose Avenue. Looking forward to hearing from you. All the best, Joyce’s Mind.”
J:”OK, Faz, you sit here and work on your chart. Don’t get up or… DO. ANYTHING else, OK?”
F:”Yes, Faz will complete his chart. When he is done, women will look upon it, and desire Faz. Men will look upon it, and envy Faz. It will be PERFECT.”
J:”Uh, yeah, sure, kid, you do that…”
*some time later*
J: “Oh, crap! Forgot about the kid! Maybe if I’m lucky, he hasn’t set himself on fire!”
*runs back to room*
*Room is covered wall-to-wall with relationship diagrams. Pieces of string criss-cross the room in a tangled spider web of connections. Faz sits at the center*
last panel: she’s saying the Joe believes that Sarah is nefarious enough to put this scheme together OR that Joyce is good enough for Jacob?
given Joyce’s face I’m thinking the former
I think it’s actually the latter, which might lead to her accusing him of envy or jealousy, but it’s open ended enough to where there’s a lot of places this could go.
I’m pretty sure she means Joe thinks she’s good enough for Jacob. Otherwise, he wouldn’t need to bother to tell her about the plan because there’d be no chance in hell of it working.
IIRC, though, and I wholly emphasize I may be mis-remembering this, but wasn’t Joyce’s original score inflated by the fact that she was super-ultra-virginal? I’m not saying that Joe doesn’t think Joyce is attractive, I just vaguely remember that part of Joyce’s appeal was the act of deflowering.
Gonna add another possibility: that Joyce believes she’s good enough for Jacob. It’s by far the least likely of the possibilities, but it’s how I read it the first time.
At this point, neither Joe nor Joyce are paying any attention to Faz. If he wanted to, he would be off like a shot, and they might not even notice.
The only possible reason for him staying is that their interaction has grabbed his attention to the point that he has forgotten about the proximity of Clark wing.
I don’t think his redemption has to be complete for the ship to sail, but further along than it is now, yeah. Joyce could also do with some growing before any relationship happens.
I think they could both do a lot of growing in the relationship, but if it started now I think it’d capsize almost immediately.
Joe’s redemption arc will never really be complete. He’ll only catch up to his peers in terms of addressing his own privilege and crappy tendencies. From there it will continue to be a work in progress indefinitely
Just like everybody in real life, because privileges and marginalizations are probably not going to be solved in our lifetime and very few people are entirely privileged or entirely marginalized.
I think you missed the point, which was more captured in BBCC’s comment. His “redemption arc” may never really be complete, because one never truly reaches the point where they can no longer grow as a person. It’s especially unlikely one will reach this point within the first semester of college, aka, the timeframe this comic will span for Joe.
I was more trying to explain someone else’s viewpoint than express my own, but whatever, guess I’ll go with it:
Even as a fictional character, “redemption” doesnt have to be complete at the end or have a fixed end point in itself. Except death, as other have pointed out.
I’m going to disagree with this. It is possible to reach a point where you can no longer grow as a person, and I just realized this is why so many redemption arcs involve the the redeemed character dying.
Training to be a counsellor here and I agree that you can always grow more as a person. Always, always. It’s just that a lot of potential personal growth is subtle, or uninteresting from the outside, or involves a writer having a greater understanding of such growth than they do, or would detract from a story, and so on.
Again, even characters without redemption arcs grow as people. The two aren’t that closely linked.
I suspect it’s more that in fiction it’s often that what’s being atoned for is sufficiently huge that the only sufficient redemption is a heroic death. Plus, you know, general over the top drama.
I suspect that a more common reason for redemption equaling death is just how awkward would it be for the now-sympathetic and popular character to go through the “war crimes trial” and “prison” story arcs that would inevitably follow. Not to mention that having them around in a redeemed state risks putting other heroic characters between the “jerk to the redeemed guy” rock and the “way too forgiving of the murderer” hard place.
He’s got built in social advantages, but that just makes his initial state worse. And his understanding of consent wasn’t particularly great, despite his protests.
But yes, he has better boundaries in some ways than Joyce does. In others less so, at least before his reformation.
Except it wasn’t said that “Joe won’t reach the end point that others will.” Arguing that his “redemption” won’t ever be truly complete doesn’t mean that Joyce’s, for example, will be.
I disagree. It’s not saying “There’s no such thing as redemption”. It’s saying that redemption isn’t a thing with a finite beginning or end-
Redemption is a *process* and a journey. Thinking of it as a binary state– Redeemed or not–is actually *effing dangerous* on a whole variety of fronts.
If you think it’s a binary thing, and you’re Not Redeemed, well, why even bother trying? You’re still going to be Bad, so fuck it.
If you think of it as a binary thing, and not a constant process/struggle, and think you *are* redeemed, then it’s oh-so-easy to backslide, to stop introspection, to think “Well I am Good now, so what I do must also be Good.” (… see: A lot of dudes that self-describe as feminist being. Uh. Kind of toxic to/objectifying women in new, different, and ‘EXCITING’ ways.)
I’d say the privilege can only be solved globally, when it isn’t a system anymore. So redemption is only part of the process and is necessarily at a moment included in a larger struggle.
That all might be true, But I was objecting to something slightly different:
Holding Joe to a real Life standard of growth time, while other characters learn in a few days or weeks. ( & also disagreeing that He was so incorrigible that the best he could ever do in comic, is be average.)
Im purely judging joe as a fictional comic character according to the fictional Plot structures Wilis sets up. due to the long days and the sliding timescale i think thats the only thing that makes sense.
i think Joes chauvanism triggers a lot of people, because they know many people IRL who act like him But whos toxicity isnt as shallows as Joes.
( a Lot of fictional character archetypes are like that, much worse IRL.)
Joe is a shithead, but hes decent at heart and trying to do better.
I was also disagreeing that He was so incorrigible that the best he could ever do in comic is be average. i think thats nonsense. Hes not a rapist. He doesnt assault people. He has shallow relationships as a response to pain, and seeing dysfunctional ones. He doesnt actually hate women. Or people in general.
in some ways Joe does describe a toxic male Feminist. He believed strongly in consent, and is sex positive. He seems like he would be a generous GGG lover. He took Gender studies to meet women to sleep with.
IRL It is possible to unlearn prejudice. And if one hasnt committed to many overt harms there is a lot less to redeem.
Some people have a Christo_centric worldview and automatically reinterpet INtersectionality and privilege, as a secular version of Christian Original Sin.
I think this sort of Christocentric normativity is claustrophobic, and especially inappropriate with a Jewish character.
There is no need to even apply real world social justice timetables and expectations. Joe can have a full redemption plot arc in comic , because Joyce and Ruth got one. Joe isnt an alcoholic, doesnt abuse people, and wasnt homophobic. Had He contributed greater harms, or taken his problematic attitudes to further harms, things would be different.
I suspect most of those saying Joe couldn’t get a full redemptive arc would claim Joyce and Ruth haven’t gotten one either. They’re both still working on those arcs.
Felgraf gets what I was trying to say, and has said it far better than I did. I didn’t mean to imply Joe would never be redeemed, just that the process that he’s started to redeem himself for his crappy treatment of and underlying attitude towards women is one that ideally should end up transitioning into an ongoing improvement effort.
I actually meant it as a defense of Joe, because I don’t think his redemption has to be “complete” before he’d be ready for a relationship. A bit more progress would be good, but that’s all.
Part of the reason I wanted to say it was that I feel the same way about me. I had some cringey, occasionally harmful attitudes when I was a teenager. I became an obnoxious little attempts edge lord for a while. I was the jackass saying “pix or get out” to women and other “ironically” misogynist shit in IRC and on web forums. I was never as bad (or at least not as consistently bad) as Joe or Mike, but like Joe, I remained convinced my behavior was totally okay and completely avoided any serious self-examination until I was in college, and I said something really insensitive and it hurt a friend of mine because of things I didn’t know.
Telling jokes like that one was not the only thing that sucked about me as a teenager. If I had stopped at addressing only the immediate problem, I would still suck today. Even though I feel like I’m a pretty decent person today, there are still plenty of ways I still suck. Some I know about, some I’m still completely blind to. It’s usually when I forget that I still have faults and blind spots that I tend to fuck up the worst.
I’m not expecting anything of Joe I don’t expect from myself as well.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. It would’ve been more accurate to say that his redemption arc won’t have any clear and point, though getting caught up to his peers would probably be it. It’s just that the same kind of work he started is something he’ll need to keep doing.
It’s the same with the others. Billie still has a drinking problem that’s going to be an ongoing issue. Joyce will likely be digging out bad behaviors and awful things she was taught for the rest of her life. Ruth has already made an impressive amount of progress, but even if she gets her anger completely handled, managing her depression will likely be a lifelong effort.
Joe can absolutely fix his behavior enough to redeem himself, and no longer be outwardly misogynistic. He’s already done well, considering where he started from and how stubbornly he had been resisting any attempt at getting him to change. I myself care less about whether he’s “completed” his redemption or how long it might take him than about whether he’s putting in a meaningful effort. Even if he screws up or backslides, if he keeps up the effort he’ll be okay in my book. I don’t expect him to completely fix this level of toxic masculinity in a week.
I guess the point I was really trying to make was that he shouldn’t stop at “not being a pig”, because if he continues that effort he can be a really sweet guy. Even where he is now, I’m only a little hesitant to say he’s progressed enough to be worthy of Joyce smooches
Joe’s mostly just moved on to a new phase. He used to be in a “I’ll just have casual sex because that way I can’t hurt anyone like my dad did” state. Now it’s been made clear to him that even that was hurting people, but he still has the same problem. It’s not like it’s become clear to him that he was being a pig and now he should have real relationships – he still thinks he can’t do that, so he’s trying to swear off women entirely. Which obviously isn’t going to be his endpoint.
Whether he’s actually worth Joyce smooches or not, he wouldn’t accept them, because he still sees his father in himself and believes he’d hurt her.
He seems to have figured out that he should have real relationships, at least with his friends. What he doesn’t seem to have figured out is that if casual sex with no strings attached is really what he wants from his love life, he can absolutely do that, without being a creep or hurting people.
Considering how counter productive his tactics were, I’m not even convinced it IS what he wants, and not simply a way to avoid it because emotional vulnerability (both his own and others’) scares the hell out of him.
Though as I said, I’d still hesitate to say he’s ready right now, but I can see him getting there
I think redemption arcs are possible to complete, even without the character becoming perfect or the story ending. They’re a literary device. They can reach closure. Even if there is more character growth – not all character growth is a redemption arc.
Personally I don’t know if Joe is even on a redemption arc. It seems more like a period of character growth than a specific arc.
I’d also say that, in general, a redemption arc can be complete without the redemption actually being complete.
I’d like to point out that Joyce was physically abusive on their date while Joe, for all his faults, has not shown any actually abusive tendencies. I’d actually be quite annoyed if they got together without that getting addressed.
Considering her ideas about love, it always bothers me to hear Joyce talk about whether or not someone else is worthy of another.
Mostly because her ideas of what makes someone unworthy are too strict.
Walky isn’t good enough for Dorothy. Why? Because he’s annoying.
Raidah, one would assume, isn’t good enough for Jacob. Why? Because Sarah doesn’t like her or vice versa (from what Joyce knows of Raidah personally).
Now Joyce isn’t good enough for Jacob. Why? No clue. Is she not pretty enough? Not smart enough? Not open minded enough? Because she’s still dealing with her trauma? She’s not cool enough?
People are just people. Everyone is flawed. Barring some truly shithead, despicable, and/or harmful behavior, ideas of someone not being worthy of another shouldn’t even come into play.
Eh, all this talk of being worthy brought it to mind. That, and, in the latest issue of Thor [Spoilers! Redacted! Because I’m not a monster, after all. Go get a copy, if there’s any left.] the way it ended.
What would be better?
Jacob dressed as Thor?
Or
Joyce (or any other suitor) trying to lift a Jacob shaped hammer?
Because now I feel like I want to see both.
I would say that Joyce has Jacob on a pedestal. It’s not that she has low self-esteem, but she has an unrealistic, idealized impression of Jacob. She knows she is imperfect (because she was taught to believe that), but she thinks he is perfect.
As others have noted, she needs to do some growing.
Shouldn’t she have been taught that no human is perfect?
I think her self esteem, or at least her judgment has taken a hit, and one or the other is holding her back.
Jacob is definitely the best husband material she’s met thus far and, in the past, that would have encouraged her to go for him.
But now she doesn’t even consider herself when thinking of his potential significant other.
Because Sarah expressed interest in him first, in Joyce’s own mind, she’s not on the chart because Sarah has dibs.
(This kind of thought can be real disturbing in real life. I was once asked by sort of a friend if I was okay with her getting together with someone I told her was interesting so many months ago I’d forgotten all about it. And through their three years of tumultuous relationships and years after she still believed I was after that person when I couldn’t have cared less.)
Believing someone has “dibs” on a potential date isn’t the same as thinking you’re not good enough to date someone.
I think Tori (a couple replies lower) hit the nail on the head with the strip they found where Joyce says she’s too weird to even be at the table with Jacob.
Honestly, I think Joyce thinks Jacob is “perfect” because she’s already hardcore crushing on him. Crushes make us really stupid about that sort of thing; nothing to do with being immature.
I think the pertinent comic here is this one where Joyce says, “I’m afraid I’m too weird to belong at a table in public with someone as perfect and normal and gorgeous as you.” So, yeah, that’s (to Joyce) her insurmountable flaw: she’s “weird,” and that weirdness is sourced from really core aspects of who she is, including her fundamentalist upbringing, her contamination neuroses, and yeah, her trauma (see: her irritation at still needing accompaniment between classes).
She definitely has Jacob up on a pedestal, but imo the really sad thing here is that the pedestal is super low. All it took for her to put Jacob there was for him to be “normal” in comparison with her (…well, okay, and gorgeous, too).
Considering Joyce’s last relationship involved her happily trying to de-gay someone I can see where her opinion of herself may have dropped somewhat. Personally I think she’s learned her lesson and deserves a good, stable person to date who will respect her boundries, but what she thinks does make sense.
Everyone (or close to everyone) deserves to be loved. Nobody deserves to be loved by any specific person.
Joyce didn’t think Walky was good enough for Dorothy, specifically. She never thought he didn’t deserve to be loved by anyone. In fact, she shipped Walky with Billie until she learned about her and Ruth. Even the reason she didn’t think Walky was good enough for Dorothy was as much because of how much she likes Dorothy as it was with how much she was annoyed by Walky.
Similarly, Raidah is barely even a consideration for her here. She has never even said Raidah wasn’t good enough for Jacob, only that she feels Sarah is better. And while it is a bit crappy that neither Raidah’s or Jacobs feelings dissuaded her from this plan, the mere fact that she thinks Sarah and Jacob would make a better couple is completely friggin’ benign.
She’s allowed to have opinions about other people, dude.
First, I never said she felt Walky or anyone else didn’t deserve to be loved in a general sense. I named names and specific reasons.
Second, she said Walky didn’t deserve Dorothy. I don’t like those kinds of judgments, especially in this case since the worst thing Walky has been shown to do is be annoying.
Just like Joyce is allowed to have opinions about other people, I’m allowed to have opinions about the idea of judging people.
Third, I know Joyce didn’t say anything specific about Raidah which is why I used the words “one would assume”. I’m assuming she feels that way as part of her reasoning to attempt to break them up.
And it’s not a bad assumption considering what she’s saying in this strip regarding herself and Jacob, and what she’s said about Walky and Dorothy being together.
Frankly, if she thinks Raidah is worthy of Jacob while she is not, it makes her manipulation worse, in my opinion. It would mean she’s sabotaging someone she considers to be better match, if not a better person, than herself for Jacob.
Joyce’s plan was to get Jacob together with SARAH, not herself. Joe is literally explaining to her right now that Sarah was trying to get him together with Joyce.
She didn’t like Walky at first. The fact that he annoyed her is more than enough justification for that. Hell, even if he’d NEVER done anything to annoy her, if he’d only ever been polite and kind to her, it would not obligate her to like him in any way.
Though if you pay attention, you’ll notice that she has warmed up to him considerably, and even before she had, she got him to get back together with Dorothy when he’d very stupidly broke up with her. More recently she’s even helped him keep secrets, and given him good advice about getting a tutor for math. The stuff you’re focusing on is not only unreasonable, but out of date.
What part of anything I’ve said implies that I didn’t know Joyce was trying to get Jacob with Sarah. Joe has currently clued her in to Sarah wanting her to be with Jacob and she feels the idea is nonsense because she feels herself not good enough to be with him.
What part of anything I’ve said implies that I feel Joyce has to like Walky? I haven’t said anything about her feelings for Walky being wrong or bad in anyway. I’ve only brought up Walky because of reason she gave for not wanting him to be with Dorothy as an example of her reasons for judging people being too strict.
I am ONLY talking about how Joyce, at times, judges whether potential and actual couples are worthy of being together, that I feel her judgment is too strict, and that I don’t like judgments like that in general.
You are reading stuff in my comments that aren’t actually there. Please reply to what I’m saying instead of what you think I’m saying.
And if you still think I’m implying more than I’m saying now, or in the future, ask me and I’ll gladly tell you if I feel that way or not and if I meant to make those implications or not.
I tend to not make implications, but I do sometimes let bias show in my comments when I didn’t intend (that’s not the case this time).
What part implies you didn’t know Joyce was trying to get Jacob together with Sarah? This part here: “Frankly, if she thinks Raidah is worthy of Jacob while she is not, it makes her manipulation worse, in my opinion.”
I don’t see how Joyce’s low self-esteem makes this worse, when she isn’t the one she is trying to get Jacob with. She feels very strongly that Sarah is good enough for Jacob.
I’ll admit that I may not be reading your comments in the most charitable light after where our last discussion went, but claiming to “dislike judging people” while being very judgemental yourself (or at least seeming to be) is something that rubs me the wrong way.
I don’t even disagree that trying to break up Jacob and Raidah like this is crappy. I explicitly made that point once already. What irks me is how you seem to feel Joyce is wrong simply for thinking Sarah was a better match for Jacob, or that Walky wasn’t good enough for Dorothy. Those are feelings. Opinions. She’s allowed to have them. Feelings have no moral or ethical value. They aren’t good or bad, right or wrong. It’s actions that matter. Bringing up how she disproved of Walky isn’t relevant, because she never tried to break them up. She did there what she should be doing here: she accepted her friend’s choice and did not try to interfere
I can see how what you quote could be confusing. I will admit that could be clearer. That said, if you read it with the knowledge of her trying to get Sarah with Jacob, it still works.
And the reason it makes the situation worse is because Joyce believes in good matches, she believes in God sending people for others, so if she acknowledges that Jacob and Raidah are a good match, but Sarah would be better, she is presuming to not only know God’s plan, but to be his instrument to resolve it. And her reasons for thinking that is? Sarah and Raidah don’t like each other.
On the other hand, if she thinks Jacob and Raidah is not a good match, like she thinks she and Jacob is not a good match, she’s not messing with God’s plan since neither her nor Raidah were meant to be with Jacob; she’s just speeding along something that would have happened anyway. That is a slightly better reason to be doing this, from that perspective. It’s like the difference between committing adulry with someone in a happy marriage vs a loveless one. You’re still committing adultry, but one is more understandable than the other. (It’s not a one to one comparison, and is a bit more extreme, but I’m trying to be clearer here).
While I freely admit I have let my feelings about certain situations in my past unknowingly affect my feelings towards Joyce in my comments, that’s not the case here as I’m not trying to say anything about Joyce as a person here.
I didn’t say she was good or bad.
I didn’t say she wasn’t allowed her opinion.
I said I personally don’t like these types of opinions, from her in particular because she’s strict. And then I pointed out examples of her being strict, ending with how she’s being strict on HERSELF.
If I was just bashing Joyce, why would I include her in the list of people she’s judging too harshly? It’s not exactly a major character flaw or sick burn.
“Oh oh! You harsh judger you! You have strong opinions! You think you need to improve herself before you can date someone!”
I can dislike her opinions without thinking she’s a terrible person.
Lastly. brining up the Dorothy/Walky situation is not irrelevant because I’m talking about her judgment being strict. That her actions about their relationship were different than her actions about this relationship is the part that doesn’t matter, because it’s the strict opinion I’m talking about, not the action. If she went no further with her manipulation, but still felt she wasn’t good enough to even consider herself with Jacob, I’d still be sitting here thinking she’s wrong to judge herself unworthy.
Mind you, she got him back together with Dorothy because, in her mind, it was Dorothy who was supposed to dump Walky, not the other way around.
I do think her “not good enough” standards may have more to do with her putting Dorothy and Jacob on pedestals than with her negative judgments of anyone else, even herself.
Something that I’m seeing missing from this discussion is the very real impact Joyce’s upbringing has had on her self esteem. Remember her talking with Dorothy, and saying that believing in herself is a sin? That she is, literally, NOTHING without god?
Or what about the fact that her entire life plan revolves around other people- her future husband and children- and has nothing to do with her as a person?
Joyce ABSOLUTELY has self esteem issues. Self esteem manifests has itself in many different ways. And a lot of the time Joyce seems very comfortable with who she is. But look at what she’s spent her entire life being taught is true, what she herself has believed, and still has trouble letting go of. How can she possibly love herself?
It’s not that she doesn’t think she doesn’t have a shot with him, although she probably thinks that, it’s that she doesn’t want a relationship, but Jacob does.
She’s confronting a very large number of Cold Cod of Realisation slaps to the face right now. She’s going to need time to sort through them all. Given who she is, it isn’t surprising that her little crush on Jacob is the first one her brain prioritises right now.
Oh God, I’m gonna have to start going back and rereading just so I can remember enough to catch what’s going on.
This is why I prefer to binge 7 years worth of comics in three days, as opposed to trying to remember shit that happened to the characters three days ago, but I read months ago.
Use the character tags! It’s really easy to narrow down to relevant prior strips so long as you prioritize the characters who appear less. You can catch up on literally everything pertinent to what’s happening in this specific strip by revisiting the most recent few pages of the Jacob and Sarah tags.
Today is going to be a hard day for Joyce. She’s going to learn just how selfish and cruel Sarah can be, even when she’s trying to be nice. She’s also going to learn that she might have been impeding her own personal life by subconsciously denying that she’s ‘good enough’. Finally, she’s going to realise that Joe has her corner.
There is going to be a difficult conversation coming with Sarah.
I mean, Joyce was about to do most of the work. I think it’s worse that Sarah deceived her, for semi-selfish reasons. I’m saying semi because Jacob is a genuienly great catch who Joyce actually likes and maybe crushes on.
Also I think she knows how selfish and cruel Sarah can be, she’s heard the Dana-story (which imo wasn’t selfish), and she’s heard her talk about casual violence a lot. This isn’t that though.
Also, who they’re not being fair to are Jacob and Raidah, even though Raidah is a jerk that doesn’t mean her relationship deserves to be tampered with. And it’s really not fair for Jacob, who doesn’t deserve any of that kinda drama.
to Second: I think that depends on how Sarah will handle Joyce confronting her about this and how Joyce’s confrontation itself will be – angry or more on the disappointed side of things (as in, disappointed that Sarah lied to her).
I think Sarah would be able to handle and angry one better, but you never know…
I think that Sarah will probably initially be defiant. She’ll remind Joyce that she isn’t a nice person and that she should be grateful that someone is trying to ‘get her laid’. Then she’ll have to handle a night with the memory of Joyce’s betrayed tears and that will really be a slap in the face for her and may really inspire her to try to change who she is.
That seems very likely, though it might take a bit longer than a night.
On the other hand, since a night for them can be like an eternity to us, maybe it will be just a night
Oh, I somehow completely overread the “getting laid” part (don’t ask me how, idk either) – I meant it seems likely that after seeing Joyce’s reaction she might try to change a bit, including giving up on spiting Raidah.
That doesn’t sound like Sarah at all, she’s very protective of Joyce, and she wouldn’t stupidly hurt her like that. And also not actually a bad person, just a very guarded and misanthropic one. She actually likes Joyce. What Sarah doesn’t like is betrayal, so I think she’s gonna feel pretty bad as soon as Joyce makes it clear that she’s feeling that. IF she is. Again, Joyce was trying the same thing. (With a little less lying to your friend.)
Joyce, it’s not important whether you think you’re “good enough” for someone else or not. What matters is if the other person wants to be with you, and if you want to be with them.
That’s the thing though, isn’t it. Joyce’s entire matchmaking mindset is based on an entirely subjective idea of who is ‘meant’ for each other based on a criteria that she’s probably changing from moment to moment. To be told that it doesn’t work that way will probably radically alter her view or romance (which is likely entirely informed by fairy tales and romcoms).
i dont know if anyone else has noticed this, but faz’s appearance in this arc has been a catalyst for a lot of changes and people learning some home truths, its a interesting take on his normal shenanigans.
Well, isn’t that mainly because his presence has essentially forced people who wouldn’t be interacting this much to do so because someone needs to watch him?
I mean, he’s mainly been “useful” as a warm body that might cause an infinite amount of problems if left alone. Its only in stopping his normal shenanigans that we get these hopefully fortuitous turns of events.
Well, there’s probably other plot devices that’d work anyways, but maybe not any that are quite as “sitcom” in nature?
Why is Joyce caring about the idea of being good enough for Jacob versus ruining the relationship of someone who didn’t deserve anything to have it happen? This is not about you, Joyce.
But Joyce isn’t doing anything wrong, and she’s certainly not ruining anybody’s relationship.
She’s hanging out with somebody she enjoys spending time with, and who apparently enjoys spending time with her (Jacob). That’s all.
It is Jacob’s call whether he wants to continue doing this or not.
She cares about that more because in her mind, it’s already been established that it’s alright to ruin the preexisting couple if it’s for making “Twue Luv” ™ possible. Her excuse at the time was “Sarah and Jacob would be perfect together, so it means I can”. And if she can do it for Sarah, she could theoretically do it for herself… if all that malarkey about being good enough for Jacob wasn’t in the way.
I don’t get why everybody (both in-universe and in the Comments) is angry at Sarah.
Sure, it is a bit mean-spirited to wish for a couple to break up, but it’s not like she’s actually *doing* anything bad.
It is still Joyce’s and Jacob’s decision whether they want to hang out with each other, and it is 100% in Jacob’s hand whether he ever lets that relationship move beyond friendship (provided Joyce would even want that, I mean, which we don’t know she does).
Suggesting that Sarah has the power of breaking up Jacob and Raidah simply by virtue of encouraging Joyce and Jacob to hang out with each other is *incredibly insulting* to Jacob.
I also don’t think it would be bad for Joyce to hang out with Jacob if she was interested in him romantically. It is 100% Jacob’s decision if he wants that and who he has what kind of relationship with.
(What would be bad and wrong is if Sarah wrote fake letters in other people’s name or spread lies, and stuff like that. But she’s not doing that at all.)
Totally off-topic: I’m trying to remember the name and author of an sf/fantasy book series I read in the early 90ties. It’s driving me nuts because on first googling 8 came up with the title the Ruin of Gotland, which totally sounded right but seems to be a book with a different plot written in 2007.
The one I mean has an adult male protagonist who on a cruise to the Mediterranean is somehow transported to an alternate reality where the Mediterranean is a desert. There are ruins of towers, a (double-bladed?) sword and a women who can fight involved. Any of this rings a bell?
But, speaking of the Ruins of Gorlan, that sounds like the Ranger’s Apprentice series, which is a pretty solid read in its own right, if you’re into YA fiction. Not really fantasy, more medieval fiction, but a fun read nonetheless
Hmm, sounds interesting, although it has a bit of that YA feel to it. Strange that I have never heard of this series, I read a lot of SF/fantasy, and that is the time period that I was really into it.
Reading the Wikipedia page on the author, he seems to have been a prolific writer with a really annoying way to treat women in real life.
As the series was co-authored by a women, i.e. written by her following his outline, the vaguely remembered positive depiction of women probably was mostly her work. I’m not sure I want to try any of his other works.
Honestly sounds like the series was basically written by her while he was in a coma – from a draft of the first book and notes for the rest.
I’ve heard the name around, but don’t think I’ve actually read anything of his.
Which are breaking every second. Becky revealed her love for Joyce, Sarah manipulated Joyce, Dorothy is failing at classes and relationships, and half of Joyce’s family are bigots.
And this is how Joyce realized three truths at the exact same time Number one: she loves Sarah even as her own sister, even if she is a bongo, and would sacrifice her happiness over Sarah’s every time. Number two: She is beautiful enough for someone like Jacob, and even Joe would agree. Number three: she has been playing with Jacob’s heart, and she know none of them will be satisfied. I hope Joyce is satisfied.
That’s not autocorrect. That’s a filter that Willis put in because he was irritated with the dismissive way that the original word (which I can’t actually post, because it would just say bongo) was being thrown around.
…. well, it STARTED as a filter. Now it’s the comment section’s mascot.
I know it’s repetitive, but could someone explain on what you base your idea that Jacob and Raidah are “a happy couple”?
I don’t remember seeing anything that makes this an easy conclusion. We have seen those two together in a handful of strips and in one of them, Raidah was lying to Jacob about Sarah, in another she was manipulating him to study and in a third, she expressed jealousy about Joyce after her friends egged her on. Where are the strips that show us a happy couple?
I’m not sure why the fans seem to unquestioningly accept Sarah’s villfiication of Raidah, considering that it’s not really supported by what we’ve actually seen and Sarah is the actual demonstrable liar and manipulator rn.
1) Raidah did not express jealousy about Joyce; just the opposite. She specifically and categorically dismissed the idea that she had to worry about Joyce and Jacob.
2) “Manipulating him to study” is a wonderful characterization of encouraging good habits I guess. Dorothy has been manipulating the shit out of Walky now I suppose? Look at Billie and Ruth trying to manipulate each other into not being alcoholic.
And Raidah’s never lied about Sarah that I know of.
So yeah Raidah has expressed confidence in and support of Jacob even to the point of shrugging off him hanging out with people she hates and who have actually physically assaulted her. So. Yeah what a shrill harpy, what a toxic relationship.
The ones in which he expressed that he is unhappy in the relationship are the basis of that idea.
People shouldn’t need to present an affadavit in order to afford them the common decency of not trying to disintegrate their relationships. If you see harm being caused, say something and let them break the relationship on their own, don’t engage in this “tempter/temptress” nonsense.
Sorry, I don’t get your answer.
To me, it seems that some readers are jumping to conclusion about the relationship between Jacob and Raidah. And these are then used to strengthen the pow that it is a bad thing that Sarah’s throwing Joyce at Jacob.
I’m not asking about the morals of Sarah or Joyce, but about the basis for a conclusion readers draw about a relationship we, in my view, practically know nothing about.
Several people already expressed that my view of “this weeks-old teen romance is not worth to make so much fuss about” is not shared by them, so there is no need to repeat.
To me it isn’t a matter of how strong a relationship is, it’s a matter of motive. If you think think someone would be genuinly happier with in a different person, and you have little regard for the potentially jilted party, as is certainly the case, it makes sense to pursue it. But I’m concerned that she is more interesting in hurting Raidha than she is in honestly helping Jacob and Joyce. If thats the case than this is an act of hatred not compassion, and should be condemned.
Let’s say that there’s no in character reason for either Joyce or Sarah to believe otherwise. Their public interactions have all been pleasant, Jacob hasn’t been complaining about Raidah.
Sarah could have reason based on her experiences with Raidah to think she won’t be good for Jacob, but she seems to be acting more on “I won’t let her have him” than any actual concern for Jacob.
Even from our perspective, I don’t think there’s any reason to think Jacob isn’t happy with the relationship – though we can worry about the warning signs in Raidah’s behavior. He doesn’t see them.
Jacob seems happy and Raidah seems happy, they’re nice to each other and they go together pretty well. It’s not particularly happy but it’s functional.
Nah, lie by omission is when you conceal there is even something to conceal, she flat out says she’d rather discuss this later when their relationship is more developed.
Interesting – I read her quite differently. She doesn’t want to go deeper into it and manipulates the situation so Jacob feels protective about her. Without giving him anything at all that Sarah didn’t just out-of-the-blue hit her (and she already had apologized at this point, if I remember correctly). So bringing the slap in the face up at all was already a manipulative move.
A fair person would have said “there’s a complicated history and I think she is toxic and should not be part of my life. let’s discuss something more appropriate to a second date.”
I hate Raidah nearly as much as Mary, because she’s such a skilled and unrepentant manipulator.
The attack doesn’t tell the whole story, but it is certainly the high light as far as Raidah is concerned. “This person might hit you if you make her angry” is pertinent information to share. Just because she doesn’t tell the same story as Sahara doesn’t mean she is manipulating the story, it means she has a different perspective on it.
You imply that Raidah really believes she never did anything wrong towards Sarah.
I can’t imagine how this could be -even Mary knows when she’s not playing fair. She just thinks she’s justified.
Well if she has any doubt or remorse about her treatment of Sarah we certainly haven’t seen it. I have no reason to believe she thinks she’s in the wrong.
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and many notes were taken
Also many NSFW diagrams…
Unconstrained by a working understanding of anatomic reality…
I wonder if Faz has a DeviantArt account.
So (@Reltzik) there might be a job for Faz in the superhero comics industry?
Faz as the next Rob Liefeld, scary idea.
Nah. Faz’s lack of empathy leaves him utterly incapable of understanding female emotional states, and little better in his understanding of males. The result would be postures and facial expressions that make no emotional sense in their contexts, and the comic book industry would never tolerate that.
I looked at the New 52 …. You use that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means … for the comic book industry.
I’m pretty sure Reltzik was being sarcastic.
JOYCE has encountered an unexpected error and needs to shut down
The moment when Joyce realizes that Joe actually thinks very highly of her.
I’m hoping beyond hope that that’s where that’s going, rather than some full denial situation.
…I’m not sure whether that gravatar is an extremely good or extremely bad fit for that comment. I guess it depends on how Sarah reacts to all this.
Its even better for this commetn.
I don’t think they’re going to Egypt, are they?
“What was I, Joe, before I hurt you?”
JOYCE
A fatal exception WTF has occurred at 2018:8:03 in JOYCE.exe + J03XFAZ. The current worldview will be terminated.
* Press any bystander and run to terminate current social interaction.
* Press CMD+RUN+ESC again to restart your conversation in a different location. You will lose any unsaved self-respect in all social interactions.
Press anyone to continue _
She’s young enough to be NT-based at this point.
A problem has been detected and cognition has been shut down to prevent damage to your Joyce.
The problem seems to be caused by the following file: SOCLNTWK.DLL
BASE_ASSUMPTION_NOT_LESS_THAN_OR_EQUAL_TO_REALITY
*** STOP: 0x00000WTF (0x00004472, 0x696e6b20, 0x4f76616c, 0x74696e65)
It’s still the blue-eyed screen of death, right?
No one knows what its like, behind blue eyes.
Is Joe the bad man, the sad man?
What part of “no one knows” is unclear?
Joe now knows what it’s like to be hated…
@ The Chosen One Are you aware of the meaning behind your gravatar, or did you just go with the pretty graphic?
@Opus the Poet
Wait what meaning? I wanna know
Yes, she IS part of the younger generation of computers, but she’s running some really old-fashioned legacy software.
Abort, Retry, Fail?
I think that’s against her religion. :/
We’re not talking abort, retry, fail on living. Just on thinking.
I like the Joe and Faz mention in your error message.
Have you tried turning Joyce off and on again?
Subject: Error. “Dear Joe stroke Faz, I am writing to inform you of an error which has broken out at the premises of…” No, that’s too formal. [deletes] “Dear Joe stroke Faz. Error, exclamation mark. Error, exclamation mark. Help Joyce, exclamation mark. 201 N Rose Avenue. Looking forward to hearing from you. All the best, Joyce’s Mind.”
But she wasn’t made in England…
That whole post is just there for “Joe stroke Faz”, right?
cringe + shudder has initiated
Backspace
Backspace
Backspace ….
It it pitch black in my soul. I would like to be eaten by a grue.
*sucks teeth* You don’t want to do that.
Cluestick’s not being swung hard enough just yet. But perhaps soon.
I don’t know. That last panel expression looks like direct hit.
Some people just have natural resistance.
And now, amongst Joyce’s many wonderful expressions, we add “a disturbing yet important realisation that changes everything.”
Dina dreams of causing Joyce to have that face about evolution.
Aw, panel 3 Joyce. ;.;
Add it to the collection of mint condition Joyce Faces.
It looks like she’s unraveling a conspiracy.
I was more reacting to her dialog in that panel, but yes, her face is great too.
Hoo boy, there’s like 10 different directions Joyce can take this.
Joyce’s confrontation with Sarah in 3…2…1…
(An explosion of new Joyce-faced gravatars to follow.)
Soon my pick will be dethroned. The hunt will begin anew.
Shades of the Triassic-Jurassic extinction event!
Whatever direction she’s taking it, Malaya is approaching.
This is gonna be good *graps popcorn*
I do enjoy a good Joyce face.
Joyce has the best faces of all the characters in this comic.
Joyce has the best faces of all the characters of all comicdom.
Cue cut to Walky in 3, 2…
Faz will need a double-page spread to fill out the relationship chart.
J:”OK, Faz, you sit here and work on your chart. Don’t get up or… DO. ANYTHING else, OK?”
F:”Yes, Faz will complete his chart. When he is done, women will look upon it, and desire Faz. Men will look upon it, and envy Faz. It will be PERFECT.”
J:”Uh, yeah, sure, kid, you do that…”
*some time later*
J: “Oh, crap! Forgot about the kid! Maybe if I’m lucky, he hasn’t set himself on fire!”
*runs back to room*
*Room is covered wall-to-wall with relationship diagrams. Pieces of string criss-cross the room in a tangled spider web of connections. Faz sits at the center*
F: “Faz is close. Faz almost understands…”
everyone else can go home
perfection has been attained
this comment is it
Walkypedia’s been working on relationship charts for over a decade and I don’t think they’ve got it all worked out yet.
That chart’s about to get more complicated once Malaya shows up.
Oh, yeah. Good thought.
last panel: she’s saying the Joe believes that Sarah is nefarious enough to put this scheme together OR that Joyce is good enough for Jacob?
given Joyce’s face I’m thinking the former
I think it’s actually the latter, which might lead to her accusing him of envy or jealousy, but it’s open ended enough to where there’s a lot of places this could go.
I’m pretty sure she means Joe thinks she’s good enough for Jacob. Otherwise, he wouldn’t need to bother to tell her about the plan because there’d be no chance in hell of it working.
She can’t get her head around Joe thinking she’s hot enough to date Jacob when he ranked her a 0-.
She likes the 0-. She earned it as a person, by hitting him in the face.
Mike helped a little.
She asked him when the list first came out: “What was I, before I hurt you?”
Which suggests she has some interest in the answer and in what Joe thinks of her.
IIRC, though, and I wholly emphasize I may be mis-remembering this, but wasn’t Joyce’s original score inflated by the fact that she was super-ultra-virginal? I’m not saying that Joe doesn’t think Joyce is attractive, I just vaguely remember that part of Joyce’s appeal was the act of deflowering.
She was a 4, and he planned to ‘upgrade’ and ‘fix’ her into a 10 with his dick.
Gonna add another possibility: that Joyce believes she’s good enough for Jacob. It’s by far the least likely of the possibilities, but it’s how I read it the first time.
“Faz believes he does not know any of these people. But it sounds like their story is more interesting than The Young and the Restless.”
At this point, neither Joe nor Joyce are paying any attention to Faz. If he wanted to, he would be off like a shot, and they might not even notice.
The only possible reason for him staying is that their interaction has grabbed his attention to the point that he has forgotten about the proximity of Clark wing.
Nah, it looks like Joe’s still got a good hold on him.
Not to say one of those toddler climbing harness leashes would work better, but at least that way Joe could tie him to a streetlight.
The best soap operas are no longer on TV. They’re in comics.
Joyce flying to Sarah’s defense is sweet, but I’m afraid to know what Joyce will do after her defense falls apart. <~<
“Oh, Joe!”
“Oh, Joyce!”
“Oh, Joe.”
“Oh, Joyce.”
And, at that moment:
“Hey, list-guy!”
Joyce!
Dr. Scott!
Joyce!
Joe!
Walky!
(blank stare)
Joyce!
Dr. Scott!
Joyce!
Joe!
Walky!
(blank stare)
Joyce!
Dr. Scott!
Joyce!
Joe!
Walky!
(blank stare)
The Walky Horror Picture Show?
Oh, don’t even act like you wouldn’t watch that. We all would.
blank stare is Fuckface right?
Intriguing last panel. Really looking forward to tomorrow already.
Are we still in TETRIS or have we moved on to MAHJONGG DIMENSIONS?
Joyce’s Jenga tower just came crashing down.
Can you post a copy of Fazs relationship chart when you are done. For shipping purposes.
Those ships are entangled in plastic detritus and drowning. On fire.
The total number of relationships ended due to infatuations with Faz is clearly demonstrated by this chart to have UPNESS
Ruh-oh
The sail of the ship has caught wind! But alas, Joe’s incomplete redemption arc remains an anchor.
I don’t care! I will lift the anchor myself if I have to!
Mal is on her way to put holes in the hull. Of course, the impact may just get things moving, instead…
That’s the spirit! Onward!
I don’t think his redemption has to be complete for the ship to sail, but further along than it is now, yeah. Joyce could also do with some growing before any relationship happens.
I think they could both do a lot of growing in the relationship, but if it started now I think it’d capsize almost immediately.
I agree. Well said.
Joe’s redemption arc will never really be complete. He’ll only catch up to his peers in terms of addressing his own privilege and crappy tendencies. From there it will continue to be a work in progress indefinitely
Just like everybody in real life, because privileges and marginalizations are probably not going to be solved in our lifetime and very few people are entirely privileged or entirely marginalized.
thats functionally equivalent to saying Redemption doesnt exist.
Its Possible hes just an immature 18 year old who hasnt murdered anyone, committed a violent crime or stolen from anyone.
Has Billie redeemed herself of drinking and driving?
Has Joyce redeemed herself for homophobia or punching Joe in the face?
Has Sal redeemed herself of holding up stores and traumatizing Amber?
Has Danny redeemed himself for Not believing Dorothy will be President?
Has Ruth redeemed himself of Bullyng, general shit behavior and hitting and coercing Billy?
Why does Joe have to permanently remain a stunted toxic caricature?
This page shows Joyce inherently thinks the same way joe used to. *
Shes Judging and ranking women and men on a linear scale.
*Joe is also Guilty of commodifying women . Thats an entire other dimension of wrong.
I think you missed the point, which was more captured in BBCC’s comment. His “redemption arc” may never really be complete, because one never truly reaches the point where they can no longer grow as a person. It’s especially unlikely one will reach this point within the first semester of college, aka, the timeframe this comic will span for Joe.
yeah that’s great for people and all but these are fictional characters. The term “redemption arc” was invented for them.
The second he completes his redemption arc he will be promptly stabbed or hit by a truck.
Willis comics be treacherous waters, they be.
I was more trying to explain someone else’s viewpoint than express my own, but whatever, guess I’ll go with it:
Even as a fictional character, “redemption” doesnt have to be complete at the end or have a fixed end point in itself. Except death, as other have pointed out.
I’m going to disagree with this. It is possible to reach a point where you can no longer grow as a person, and I just realized this is why so many redemption arcs involve the the redeemed character dying.
…. not in this comic, though.
Training to be a counsellor here and I agree that you can always grow more as a person. Always, always. It’s just that a lot of potential personal growth is subtle, or uninteresting from the outside, or involves a writer having a greater understanding of such growth than they do, or would detract from a story, and so on.
Well, yes, always.
Except after you’re dead, which is what I was referring to.
Again, even characters without redemption arcs grow as people. The two aren’t that closely linked.
I suspect it’s more that in fiction it’s often that what’s being atoned for is sufficiently huge that the only sufficient redemption is a heroic death. Plus, you know, general over the top drama.
I suspect that a more common reason for redemption equaling death is just how awkward would it be for the now-sympathetic and popular character to go through the “war crimes trial” and “prison” story arcs that would inevitably follow. Not to mention that having them around in a redeemed state risks putting other heroic characters between the “jerk to the redeemed guy” rock and the “way too forgiving of the murderer” hard place.
Its unlikely any of the characters would get redemption for shitty behavior in one semester of college IRL
But in the rules of the comics, It sets up a double standard to say Joe wont.
Hes already surpassed Joyce in some ways.
He even has some built in social advantages not being homeschooled in a fundamentalist religion. Hes not malicious, understands consent.
unlike Joyce he has a better sense of boundaries especially with interfering with other peoples relatiuonships
He’s got built in social advantages, but that just makes his initial state worse. And his understanding of consent wasn’t particularly great, despite his protests.
But yes, he has better boundaries in some ways than Joyce does. In others less so, at least before his reformation.
Except it wasn’t said that “Joe won’t reach the end point that others will.” Arguing that his “redemption” won’t ever be truly complete doesn’t mean that Joyce’s, for example, will be.
I disagree. It’s not saying “There’s no such thing as redemption”. It’s saying that redemption isn’t a thing with a finite beginning or end-
Redemption is a *process* and a journey. Thinking of it as a binary state– Redeemed or not–is actually *effing dangerous* on a whole variety of fronts.
If you think it’s a binary thing, and you’re Not Redeemed, well, why even bother trying? You’re still going to be Bad, so fuck it.
If you think of it as a binary thing, and not a constant process/struggle, and think you *are* redeemed, then it’s oh-so-easy to backslide, to stop introspection, to think “Well I am Good now, so what I do must also be Good.” (… see: A lot of dudes that self-describe as feminist being. Uh. Kind of toxic to/objectifying women in new, different, and ‘EXCITING’ ways.)
I’d say the privilege can only be solved globally, when it isn’t a system anymore. So redemption is only part of the process and is necessarily at a moment included in a larger struggle.
That all might be true, But I was objecting to something slightly different:
Holding Joe to a real Life standard of growth time, while other characters learn in a few days or weeks. ( & also disagreeing that He was so incorrigible that the best he could ever do in comic, is be average.)
Im purely judging joe as a fictional comic character according to the fictional Plot structures Wilis sets up. due to the long days and the sliding timescale i think thats the only thing that makes sense.
i think Joes chauvanism triggers a lot of people, because they know many people IRL who act like him But whos toxicity isnt as shallows as Joes.
( a Lot of fictional character archetypes are like that, much worse IRL.)
Joe is a shithead, but hes decent at heart and trying to do better.
I was also disagreeing that He was so incorrigible that the best he could ever do in comic is be average. i think thats nonsense. Hes not a rapist. He doesnt assault people. He has shallow relationships as a response to pain, and seeing dysfunctional ones. He doesnt actually hate women. Or people in general.
in some ways Joe does describe a toxic male Feminist. He believed strongly in consent, and is sex positive. He seems like he would be a generous GGG lover. He took Gender studies to meet women to sleep with.
IRL It is possible to unlearn prejudice. And if one hasnt committed to many overt harms there is a lot less to redeem.
Some people have a Christo_centric worldview and automatically reinterpet INtersectionality and privilege, as a secular version of Christian Original Sin.
I think this sort of Christocentric normativity is claustrophobic, and especially inappropriate with a Jewish character.
There is no need to even apply real world social justice timetables and expectations. Joe can have a full redemption plot arc in comic , because Joyce and Ruth got one. Joe isnt an alcoholic, doesnt abuse people, and wasnt homophobic. Had He contributed greater harms, or taken his problematic attitudes to further harms, things would be different.
I suspect most of those saying Joe couldn’t get a full redemptive arc would claim Joyce and Ruth haven’t gotten one either. They’re both still working on those arcs.
Felgraf gets what I was trying to say, and has said it far better than I did. I didn’t mean to imply Joe would never be redeemed, just that the process that he’s started to redeem himself for his crappy treatment of and underlying attitude towards women is one that ideally should end up transitioning into an ongoing improvement effort.
I actually meant it as a defense of Joe, because I don’t think his redemption has to be “complete” before he’d be ready for a relationship. A bit more progress would be good, but that’s all.
Part of the reason I wanted to say it was that I feel the same way about me. I had some cringey, occasionally harmful attitudes when I was a teenager. I became an obnoxious little attempts edge lord for a while. I was the jackass saying “pix or get out” to women and other “ironically” misogynist shit in IRC and on web forums. I was never as bad (or at least not as consistently bad) as Joe or Mike, but like Joe, I remained convinced my behavior was totally okay and completely avoided any serious self-examination until I was in college, and I said something really insensitive and it hurt a friend of mine because of things I didn’t know.
Telling jokes like that one was not the only thing that sucked about me as a teenager. If I had stopped at addressing only the immediate problem, I would still suck today. Even though I feel like I’m a pretty decent person today, there are still plenty of ways I still suck. Some I know about, some I’m still completely blind to. It’s usually when I forget that I still have faults and blind spots that I tend to fuck up the worst.
I’m not expecting anything of Joe I don’t expect from myself as well.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. It would’ve been more accurate to say that his redemption arc won’t have any clear and point, though getting caught up to his peers would probably be it. It’s just that the same kind of work he started is something he’ll need to keep doing.
It’s the same with the others. Billie still has a drinking problem that’s going to be an ongoing issue. Joyce will likely be digging out bad behaviors and awful things she was taught for the rest of her life. Ruth has already made an impressive amount of progress, but even if she gets her anger completely handled, managing her depression will likely be a lifelong effort.
Joe can absolutely fix his behavior enough to redeem himself, and no longer be outwardly misogynistic. He’s already done well, considering where he started from and how stubbornly he had been resisting any attempt at getting him to change. I myself care less about whether he’s “completed” his redemption or how long it might take him than about whether he’s putting in a meaningful effort. Even if he screws up or backslides, if he keeps up the effort he’ll be okay in my book. I don’t expect him to completely fix this level of toxic masculinity in a week.
I guess the point I was really trying to make was that he shouldn’t stop at “not being a pig”, because if he continues that effort he can be a really sweet guy. Even where he is now, I’m only a little hesitant to say he’s progressed enough to be worthy of Joyce smooches
Joe’s mostly just moved on to a new phase. He used to be in a “I’ll just have casual sex because that way I can’t hurt anyone like my dad did” state. Now it’s been made clear to him that even that was hurting people, but he still has the same problem. It’s not like it’s become clear to him that he was being a pig and now he should have real relationships – he still thinks he can’t do that, so he’s trying to swear off women entirely. Which obviously isn’t going to be his endpoint.
Whether he’s actually worth Joyce smooches or not, he wouldn’t accept them, because he still sees his father in himself and believes he’d hurt her.
He seems to have figured out that he should have real relationships, at least with his friends. What he doesn’t seem to have figured out is that if casual sex with no strings attached is really what he wants from his love life, he can absolutely do that, without being a creep or hurting people.
Considering how counter productive his tactics were, I’m not even convinced it IS what he wants, and not simply a way to avoid it because emotional vulnerability (both his own and others’) scares the hell out of him.
Though as I said, I’d still hesitate to say he’s ready right now, but I can see him getting there
I think redemption arcs are possible to complete, even without the character becoming perfect or the story ending. They’re a literary device. They can reach closure. Even if there is more character growth – not all character growth is a redemption arc.
Personally I don’t know if Joe is even on a redemption arc. It seems more like a period of character growth than a specific arc.
I’d also say that, in general, a redemption arc can be complete without the redemption actually being complete.
I’d like to point out that Joyce was physically abusive on their date while Joe, for all his faults, has not shown any actually abusive tendencies. I’d actually be quite annoyed if they got together without that getting addressed.
Considering her ideas about love, it always bothers me to hear Joyce talk about whether or not someone else is worthy of another.
Mostly because her ideas of what makes someone unworthy are too strict.
Walky isn’t good enough for Dorothy. Why? Because he’s annoying.
Raidah, one would assume, isn’t good enough for Jacob. Why? Because Sarah doesn’t like her or vice versa (from what Joyce knows of Raidah personally).
Now Joyce isn’t good enough for Jacob. Why? No clue. Is she not pretty enough? Not smart enough? Not open minded enough? Because she’s still dealing with her trauma? She’s not cool enough?
People are just people. Everyone is flawed. Barring some truly shithead, despicable, and/or harmful behavior, ideas of someone not being worthy of another shouldn’t even come into play.
“…Worthy to lift the Hammer…”
While Joyce might well be up for some smiting, I somehow cannot picture her wielding Mjolnir.
Eh, all this talk of being worthy brought it to mind. That, and, in the latest issue of Thor [Spoilers! Redacted! Because I’m not a monster, after all. Go get a copy, if there’s any left.] the way it ended.
What would be better?
Jacob dressed as Thor?
Or
Joyce (or any other suitor) trying to lift a Jacob shaped hammer?
Because now I feel like I want to see both.
Joyce in a skimpy Thor costume trying to lift Jacob’s “hammer” does seem like prime Slipshine material. :S
Can’t unsee…not sure I want to…
I would say that Joyce has Jacob on a pedestal. It’s not that she has low self-esteem, but she has an unrealistic, idealized impression of Jacob. She knows she is imperfect (because she was taught to believe that), but she thinks he is perfect.
As others have noted, she needs to do some growing.
Shouldn’t she have been taught that no human is perfect?
I think her self esteem, or at least her judgment has taken a hit, and one or the other is holding her back.
Jacob is definitely the best husband material she’s met thus far and, in the past, that would have encouraged her to go for him.
But now she doesn’t even consider herself when thinking of his potential significant other.
Because Sarah expressed interest in him first, in Joyce’s own mind, she’s not on the chart because Sarah has dibs.
(This kind of thought can be real disturbing in real life. I was once asked by sort of a friend if I was okay with her getting together with someone I told her was interesting so many months ago I’d forgotten all about it. And through their three years of tumultuous relationships and years after she still believed I was after that person when I couldn’t have cared less.)
Believing someone has “dibs” on a potential date isn’t the same as thinking you’re not good enough to date someone.
I think Tori (a couple replies lower) hit the nail on the head with the strip they found where Joyce says she’s too weird to even be at the table with Jacob.
Honestly, I think Joyce thinks Jacob is “perfect” because she’s already hardcore crushing on him. Crushes make us really stupid about that sort of thing; nothing to do with being immature.
Well, yes, the crush is what I was implying.
I hate to break it to you, but with age and experience (read: heartbreak) the rose-coloured glasses tend to fade somewhat.
I think the pertinent comic here is this one where Joyce says, “I’m afraid I’m too weird to belong at a table in public with someone as perfect and normal and gorgeous as you.” So, yeah, that’s (to Joyce) her insurmountable flaw: she’s “weird,” and that weirdness is sourced from really core aspects of who she is, including her fundamentalist upbringing, her contamination neuroses, and yeah, her trauma (see: her irritation at still needing accompaniment between classes).
She definitely has Jacob up on a pedestal, but imo the really sad thing here is that the pedestal is super low. All it took for her to put Jacob there was for him to be “normal” in comparison with her (…well, okay, and gorgeous, too).
I forgot about this. I think you’re right.
Considering Joyce’s last relationship involved her happily trying to de-gay someone I can see where her opinion of herself may have dropped somewhat. Personally I think she’s learned her lesson and deserves a good, stable person to date who will respect her boundries, but what she thinks does make sense.
Everyone (or close to everyone) deserves to be loved. Nobody deserves to be loved by any specific person.
Joyce didn’t think Walky was good enough for Dorothy, specifically. She never thought he didn’t deserve to be loved by anyone. In fact, she shipped Walky with Billie until she learned about her and Ruth. Even the reason she didn’t think Walky was good enough for Dorothy was as much because of how much she likes Dorothy as it was with how much she was annoyed by Walky.
Similarly, Raidah is barely even a consideration for her here. She has never even said Raidah wasn’t good enough for Jacob, only that she feels Sarah is better. And while it is a bit crappy that neither Raidah’s or Jacobs feelings dissuaded her from this plan, the mere fact that she thinks Sarah and Jacob would make a better couple is completely friggin’ benign.
She’s allowed to have opinions about other people, dude.
First, I never said she felt Walky or anyone else didn’t deserve to be loved in a general sense. I named names and specific reasons.
Second, she said Walky didn’t deserve Dorothy. I don’t like those kinds of judgments, especially in this case since the worst thing Walky has been shown to do is be annoying.
Just like Joyce is allowed to have opinions about other people, I’m allowed to have opinions about the idea of judging people.
Third, I know Joyce didn’t say anything specific about Raidah which is why I used the words “one would assume”. I’m assuming she feels that way as part of her reasoning to attempt to break them up.
And it’s not a bad assumption considering what she’s saying in this strip regarding herself and Jacob, and what she’s said about Walky and Dorothy being together.
Frankly, if she thinks Raidah is worthy of Jacob while she is not, it makes her manipulation worse, in my opinion. It would mean she’s sabotaging someone she considers to be better match, if not a better person, than herself for Jacob.
Joyce’s plan was to get Jacob together with SARAH, not herself. Joe is literally explaining to her right now that Sarah was trying to get him together with Joyce.
She didn’t like Walky at first. The fact that he annoyed her is more than enough justification for that. Hell, even if he’d NEVER done anything to annoy her, if he’d only ever been polite and kind to her, it would not obligate her to like him in any way.
Though if you pay attention, you’ll notice that she has warmed up to him considerably, and even before she had, she got him to get back together with Dorothy when he’d very stupidly broke up with her. More recently she’s even helped him keep secrets, and given him good advice about getting a tutor for math. The stuff you’re focusing on is not only unreasonable, but out of date.
What part of anything I’ve said implies that I didn’t know Joyce was trying to get Jacob with Sarah. Joe has currently clued her in to Sarah wanting her to be with Jacob and she feels the idea is nonsense because she feels herself not good enough to be with him.
What part of anything I’ve said implies that I feel Joyce has to like Walky? I haven’t said anything about her feelings for Walky being wrong or bad in anyway. I’ve only brought up Walky because of reason she gave for not wanting him to be with Dorothy as an example of her reasons for judging people being too strict.
I am ONLY talking about how Joyce, at times, judges whether potential and actual couples are worthy of being together, that I feel her judgment is too strict, and that I don’t like judgments like that in general.
You are reading stuff in my comments that aren’t actually there. Please reply to what I’m saying instead of what you think I’m saying.
And if you still think I’m implying more than I’m saying now, or in the future, ask me and I’ll gladly tell you if I feel that way or not and if I meant to make those implications or not.
I tend to not make implications, but I do sometimes let bias show in my comments when I didn’t intend (that’s not the case this time).
What part implies you didn’t know Joyce was trying to get Jacob together with Sarah? This part here: “Frankly, if she thinks Raidah is worthy of Jacob while she is not, it makes her manipulation worse, in my opinion.”
I don’t see how Joyce’s low self-esteem makes this worse, when she isn’t the one she is trying to get Jacob with. She feels very strongly that Sarah is good enough for Jacob.
I’ll admit that I may not be reading your comments in the most charitable light after where our last discussion went, but claiming to “dislike judging people” while being very judgemental yourself (or at least seeming to be) is something that rubs me the wrong way.
I don’t even disagree that trying to break up Jacob and Raidah like this is crappy. I explicitly made that point once already. What irks me is how you seem to feel Joyce is wrong simply for thinking Sarah was a better match for Jacob, or that Walky wasn’t good enough for Dorothy. Those are feelings. Opinions. She’s allowed to have them. Feelings have no moral or ethical value. They aren’t good or bad, right or wrong. It’s actions that matter. Bringing up how she disproved of Walky isn’t relevant, because she never tried to break them up. She did there what she should be doing here: she accepted her friend’s choice and did not try to interfere
I can see how what you quote could be confusing. I will admit that could be clearer. That said, if you read it with the knowledge of her trying to get Sarah with Jacob, it still works.
And the reason it makes the situation worse is because Joyce believes in good matches, she believes in God sending people for others, so if she acknowledges that Jacob and Raidah are a good match, but Sarah would be better, she is presuming to not only know God’s plan, but to be his instrument to resolve it. And her reasons for thinking that is? Sarah and Raidah don’t like each other.
On the other hand, if she thinks Jacob and Raidah is not a good match, like she thinks she and Jacob is not a good match, she’s not messing with God’s plan since neither her nor Raidah were meant to be with Jacob; she’s just speeding along something that would have happened anyway. That is a slightly better reason to be doing this, from that perspective. It’s like the difference between committing adulry with someone in a happy marriage vs a loveless one. You’re still committing adultry, but one is more understandable than the other. (It’s not a one to one comparison, and is a bit more extreme, but I’m trying to be clearer here).
While I freely admit I have let my feelings about certain situations in my past unknowingly affect my feelings towards Joyce in my comments, that’s not the case here as I’m not trying to say anything about Joyce as a person here.
I didn’t say she was good or bad.
I didn’t say she wasn’t allowed her opinion.
I said I personally don’t like these types of opinions, from her in particular because she’s strict. And then I pointed out examples of her being strict, ending with how she’s being strict on HERSELF.
If I was just bashing Joyce, why would I include her in the list of people she’s judging too harshly? It’s not exactly a major character flaw or sick burn.
“Oh oh! You harsh judger you! You have strong opinions! You think you need to improve herself before you can date someone!”
I can dislike her opinions without thinking she’s a terrible person.
Lastly. brining up the Dorothy/Walky situation is not irrelevant because I’m talking about her judgment being strict. That her actions about their relationship were different than her actions about this relationship is the part that doesn’t matter, because it’s the strict opinion I’m talking about, not the action. If she went no further with her manipulation, but still felt she wasn’t good enough to even consider herself with Jacob, I’d still be sitting here thinking she’s wrong to judge herself unworthy.
Mind you, she got him back together with Dorothy because, in her mind, it was Dorothy who was supposed to dump Walky, not the other way around.
I do think her “not good enough” standards may have more to do with her putting Dorothy and Jacob on pedestals than with her negative judgments of anyone else, even herself.
“Joyce’s plan was to get Jacob together with SARAH, not herself”
It really doesnt matter.
Shes knowingly on her own will and initiative trying to break up a happy couple.
*Plays “Not Pretty Enough” on the hacked Muzak*
Something that I’m seeing missing from this discussion is the very real impact Joyce’s upbringing has had on her self esteem. Remember her talking with Dorothy, and saying that believing in herself is a sin? That she is, literally, NOTHING without god?
Or what about the fact that her entire life plan revolves around other people- her future husband and children- and has nothing to do with her as a person?
Joyce ABSOLUTELY has self esteem issues. Self esteem manifests has itself in many different ways. And a lot of the time Joyce seems very comfortable with who she is. But look at what she’s spent her entire life being taught is true, what she herself has believed, and still has trouble letting go of. How can she possibly love herself?
Good point. I forgot about that aspect of her upbringing.
Come on it’s Sarah it’s not hard to believe that she has enough self-loathing to think she has no shot with Jacob.
Also I wonder what that last panel implies for Joyce ? Like how does she feel about that really ?
“Joe wuves me? Joe Wuves me!”
It’s not that she doesn’t think she doesn’t have a shot with him, although she probably thinks that, it’s that she doesn’t want a relationship, but Jacob does.
Yes, Joyce. That is the most important ramification of all this.
She’s confronting a very large number of Cold Cod of Realisation slaps to the face right now. She’s going to need time to sort through them all. Given who she is, it isn’t surprising that her little crush on Jacob is the first one her brain prioritises right now.
That is very true – not least because a large part of her brain is screaming something like… this right now.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-8/02-this-is-the-way-that-we-love/glisteny/
Joe can be “pretty on the ball” (Joyce’s own words) with these things provided he s not part of the scene, only observing.
And Joe’s often pretty on the ball.
To quote Joyce, IIRC?
It’s the middle of night and I didn’t mean to completely lift your comment.
Yep, Joe shows that he is good for that in a social setting.
Now if only Joyce would realize that she might have feelings for Jacob.
She hasn’t yet?
Joyce, please watch your language, you’re offending my sensibilities with the vulgarity.
Good catch.
I want to start and ef bomb list, just so I can put her on it.
There already is one. Joyce hasn’t quite earned her place on it yet.
http://www.ci-n.com/~jcampbel/doafbombcount.php
Oh God, I’m gonna have to start going back and rereading just so I can remember enough to catch what’s going on.
This is why I prefer to binge 7 years worth of comics in three days, as opposed to trying to remember shit that happened to the characters three days ago, but I read months ago.
Yeah, I get brain strain trying to think back to these shenanigans. Guess I’d better order the other books.
Use the character tags! It’s really easy to narrow down to relevant prior strips so long as you prioritize the characters who appear less. You can catch up on literally everything pertinent to what’s happening in this specific strip by revisiting the most recent few pages of the Jacob and Sarah tags.
It’s for the best that Faz put his hands to a chart than elsewhere.
And, it will keep him occupied for the next few years.
There’s an awful lot of convoluted relationships at IU.
Today is going to be a hard day for Joyce. She’s going to learn just how selfish and cruel Sarah can be, even when she’s trying to be nice. She’s also going to learn that she might have been impeding her own personal life by subconsciously denying that she’s ‘good enough’. Finally, she’s going to realise that Joe has her corner.
There is going to be a difficult conversation coming with Sarah.
I mean, Joyce was about to do most of the work. I think it’s worse that Sarah deceived her, for semi-selfish reasons. I’m saying semi because Jacob is a genuienly great catch who Joyce actually likes and maybe crushes on.
Also I think she knows how selfish and cruel Sarah can be, she’s heard the Dana-story (which imo wasn’t selfish), and she’s heard her talk about casual violence a lot. This isn’t that though.
Also, who they’re not being fair to are Jacob and Raidah, even though Raidah is a jerk that doesn’t mean her relationship deserves to be tampered with. And it’s really not fair for Jacob, who doesn’t deserve any of that kinda drama.
So is it just me who suspects someone will find Faz’s relationship chart?
Given his demonstrated inability to keep hold of his notes, it’s almost inevitable. I’m wondering if it’s going to be Dorothy.
First off: Joe/Joyce intensifies.
Second: Hooooo boy. Sarah’s doomed.
to Second: I think that depends on how Sarah will handle Joyce confronting her about this and how Joyce’s confrontation itself will be – angry or more on the disappointed side of things (as in, disappointed that Sarah lied to her).
I think Sarah would be able to handle and angry one better, but you never know…
I think that Sarah will probably initially be defiant. She’ll remind Joyce that she isn’t a nice person and that she should be grateful that someone is trying to ‘get her laid’. Then she’ll have to handle a night with the memory of Joyce’s betrayed tears and that will really be a slap in the face for her and may really inspire her to try to change who she is.
I think even in defensive anger, Sarah knows better than to phrase it as getting Joyce laid.
That seems very likely, though it might take a bit longer than a night.
On the other hand, since a night for them can be like an eternity to us, maybe it will be just a night
Oh, I somehow completely overread the “getting laid” part (don’t ask me how, idk either) – I meant it seems likely that after seeing Joyce’s reaction she might try to change a bit, including giving up on spiting Raidah.
Jago phrased it pretty well.
That doesn’t sound like Sarah at all, she’s very protective of Joyce, and she wouldn’t stupidly hurt her like that. And also not actually a bad person, just a very guarded and misanthropic one. She actually likes Joyce. What Sarah doesn’t like is betrayal, so I think she’s gonna feel pretty bad as soon as Joyce makes it clear that she’s feeling that. IF she is. Again, Joyce was trying the same thing. (With a little less lying to your friend.)
“Can we hurry this up, please? This kids drawing dicks and… what I assume he thinks a Vagina looks like?”
Maybe Faz is working on the integration formula?
I’m honestly a big fan of the Joe/Joyce arc intensifying.
Although I suspect Joe is about to get (undeservedly, for once) yelled at.
Possibly by multiple people.
Joyce, it’s not important whether you think you’re “good enough” for someone else or not. What matters is if the other person wants to be with you, and if you want to be with them.
That’s the thing though, isn’t it. Joyce’s entire matchmaking mindset is based on an entirely subjective idea of who is ‘meant’ for each other based on a criteria that she’s probably changing from moment to moment. To be told that it doesn’t work that way will probably radically alter her view or romance (which is likely entirely informed by fairy tales and romcoms).
i dont know if anyone else has noticed this, but faz’s appearance in this arc has been a catalyst for a lot of changes and people learning some home truths, its a interesting take on his normal shenanigans.
Well, isn’t that mainly because his presence has essentially forced people who wouldn’t be interacting this much to do so because someone needs to watch him?
I mean, he’s mainly been “useful” as a warm body that might cause an infinite amount of problems if left alone. Its only in stopping his normal shenanigans that we get these hopefully fortuitous turns of events.
Well, there’s probably other plot devices that’d work anyways, but maybe not any that are quite as “sitcom” in nature?
True there are many but faz is the best one and if anything hes caused only minor disruption to the everyday “sitcom” that is going on already 🙂
I am going to have to see a chart demonstrating this.
Chekhov’s Faz?
I hope that’s not you saying that Faz is well-cocked and ready to explosively discharge..
Oh, third-panel Joyce… I’m so sorry
Now watch how every possible chance of them having an honest conversation is ruined by Malaya butting in.
Their fault for having it outside.
Why is Joyce caring about the idea of being good enough for Jacob versus ruining the relationship of someone who didn’t deserve anything to have it happen? This is not about you, Joyce.
But Joyce isn’t doing anything wrong, and she’s certainly not ruining anybody’s relationship.
She’s hanging out with somebody she enjoys spending time with, and who apparently enjoys spending time with her (Jacob). That’s all.
It is Jacob’s call whether he wants to continue doing this or not.
Zero minus, remember? Joyce has a reason to be weirded out here <3
She cares about that more because in her mind, it’s already been established that it’s alright to ruin the preexisting couple if it’s for making “Twue Luv” ™ possible. Her excuse at the time was “Sarah and Jacob would be perfect together, so it means I can”. And if she can do it for Sarah, she could theoretically do it for herself… if all that malarkey about being good enough for Jacob wasn’t in the way.
I don’t get why everybody (both in-universe and in the Comments) is angry at Sarah.
Sure, it is a bit mean-spirited to wish for a couple to break up, but it’s not like she’s actually *doing* anything bad.
It is still Joyce’s and Jacob’s decision whether they want to hang out with each other, and it is 100% in Jacob’s hand whether he ever lets that relationship move beyond friendship (provided Joyce would even want that, I mean, which we don’t know she does).
Suggesting that Sarah has the power of breaking up Jacob and Raidah simply by virtue of encouraging Joyce and Jacob to hang out with each other is *incredibly insulting* to Jacob.
I also don’t think it would be bad for Joyce to hang out with Jacob if she was interested in him romantically. It is 100% Jacob’s decision if he wants that and who he has what kind of relationship with.
(What would be bad and wrong is if Sarah wrote fake letters in other people’s name or spread lies, and stuff like that. But she’s not doing that at all.)
But why me?
Because you’re special.
I keep telling you, I’m not.
No, but you are though… ohhh… you really don’t believe that, do you?
Run, Joe! Inner feelings alert! Evacuate! Evacuate!
Run to the washroom, THEN evacuate! Correct sequence is important.
Totally off-topic: I’m trying to remember the name and author of an sf/fantasy book series I read in the early 90ties. It’s driving me nuts because on first googling 8 came up with the title the Ruin of Gotland, which totally sounded right but seems to be a book with a different plot written in 2007.
The one I mean has an adult male protagonist who on a cruise to the Mediterranean is somehow transported to an alternate reality where the Mediterranean is a desert. There are ruins of towers, a (double-bladed?) sword and a women who can fight involved. Any of this rings a bell?
I hate autocorrect: The ruins of Gorlan
But, speaking of the Ruins of Gorlan, that sounds like the Ranger’s Apprentice series, which is a pretty solid read in its own right, if you’re into YA fiction. Not really fantasy, more medieval fiction, but a fun read nonetheless
Could be this, seems to match your description: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandalara_Cycle
Hmm, sounds interesting, although it has a bit of that YA feel to it. Strange that I have never heard of this series, I read a lot of SF/fantasy, and that is the time period that I was really into it.
Same here, never heard of it before. I guess that the genre was highly saturated at the time.
Yes, great, thanks!!!! 🙏
Memory is a truly strange thing…
Reading the Wikipedia page on the author, he seems to have been a prolific writer with a really annoying way to treat women in real life.
As the series was co-authored by a women, i.e. written by her following his outline, the vaguely remembered positive depiction of women probably was mostly her work. I’m not sure I want to try any of his other works.
Honestly sounds like the series was basically written by her while he was in a coma – from a draft of the first book and notes for the rest.
I’ve heard the name around, but don’t think I’ve actually read anything of his.
I have read some of the Lord Darcy stories. I found them moderately fun alternative history mysteries.
You’re welcome. Thanks to you there’s another series added to my “to-read” list 🙂
In all this talk of Joyce, Raidah and Sarah theres not much thought given to how Jacob will react to all this.
He seems like a straight-up, decent guy so I think that if he learns about what Sarah, and by extension Joyce, are planning he’ll be mightily pissed
From his pov hes got Sarah and Joyce actively trying to break him and Raidah up and using fiath as way to do so
Hes not going to like being manipulated in this way (who would) and I don’t see anyway this doesn’t end in tears for most, if not all involved
And this is why you don’t put a Twilight fan as Joyce as a shipper. This is going to end bad.
In today’s news, Joyce realizes that she doesn’t much love her friends, she loves the pedestals she’s put them on.
Which are breaking every second. Becky revealed her love for Joyce, Sarah manipulated Joyce, Dorothy is failing at classes and relationships, and half of Joyce’s family are bigots.
And this is how Joyce realized three truths at the exact same time Number one: she loves Sarah even as her own sister, even if she is a bongo, and would sacrifice her happiness over Sarah’s every time. Number two: She is beautiful enough for someone like Jacob, and even Joe would agree. Number three: she has been playing with Jacob’s heart, and she know none of them will be satisfied. I hope Joyce is satisfied.
bongo, not bongo* auto correct sucks.
That’s not autocorrect. That’s a filter that Willis put in because he was irritated with the dismissive way that the original word (which I can’t actually post, because it would just say bongo) was being thrown around.
…. well, it STARTED as a filter. Now it’s the comment section’s mascot.
I only say the b-word if I really mean it. I don’t usually casually swear. The c-word is not banned, however, not that I noticed.
ONE of the c-words isn’t banned.
The other gets your entire post swallowed by the internetz with no indication it was ever there at all.
Wait, which c-words are we talking about?
Also watch out for “percussion instruments”.
That’s not the result of an automatic word-filter, it’s the reaction of the forum members to the word-filter.
Strange things are occuring on these forum with music instruments – see also: ‘lele
Dooooroothyyyy
Jooooycceee
AND MALAYA
So that makes Walky into Hamilton? Danny could be like Burr and Dorothy would say “you want a revolution, I want a revelation.”
I don’t think it’s so much “beautiful enough”, but not too weird and screwed up, judging from her not-a-date with Jacob.
Not too weird and screwed up is the perfect adjective to describe Joyce’s life in both universes.
I know it’s repetitive, but could someone explain on what you base your idea that Jacob and Raidah are “a happy couple”?
I don’t remember seeing anything that makes this an easy conclusion. We have seen those two together in a handful of strips and in one of them, Raidah was lying to Jacob about Sarah, in another she was manipulating him to study and in a third, she expressed jealousy about Joyce after her friends egged her on. Where are the strips that show us a happy couple?
I’m not sure why the fans seem to unquestioningly accept Sarah’s villfiication of Raidah, considering that it’s not really supported by what we’ve actually seen and Sarah is the actual demonstrable liar and manipulator rn.
1) Raidah did not express jealousy about Joyce; just the opposite. She specifically and categorically dismissed the idea that she had to worry about Joyce and Jacob.
2) “Manipulating him to study” is a wonderful characterization of encouraging good habits I guess. Dorothy has been manipulating the shit out of Walky now I suppose? Look at Billie and Ruth trying to manipulate each other into not being alcoholic.
And Raidah’s never lied about Sarah that I know of.
So yeah Raidah has expressed confidence in and support of Jacob even to the point of shrugging off him hanging out with people she hates and who have actually physically assaulted her. So. Yeah what a shrill harpy, what a toxic relationship.
The ones in which he expressed that he is unhappy in the relationship are the basis of that idea.
People shouldn’t need to present an affadavit in order to afford them the common decency of not trying to disintegrate their relationships. If you see harm being caused, say something and let them break the relationship on their own, don’t engage in this “tempter/temptress” nonsense.
Sorry, I don’t get your answer.
To me, it seems that some readers are jumping to conclusion about the relationship between Jacob and Raidah. And these are then used to strengthen the pow that it is a bad thing that Sarah’s throwing Joyce at Jacob.
I’m not asking about the morals of Sarah or Joyce, but about the basis for a conclusion readers draw about a relationship we, in my view, practically know nothing about.
Several people already expressed that my view of “this weeks-old teen romance is not worth to make so much fuss about” is not shared by them, so there is no need to repeat.
To me it isn’t a matter of how strong a relationship is, it’s a matter of motive. If you think think someone would be genuinly happier with in a different person, and you have little regard for the potentially jilted party, as is certainly the case, it makes sense to pursue it. But I’m concerned that she is more interesting in hurting Raidha than she is in honestly helping Jacob and Joyce. If thats the case than this is an act of hatred not compassion, and should be condemned.
Let’s say that there’s no in character reason for either Joyce or Sarah to believe otherwise. Their public interactions have all been pleasant, Jacob hasn’t been complaining about Raidah.
Sarah could have reason based on her experiences with Raidah to think she won’t be good for Jacob, but she seems to be acting more on “I won’t let her have him” than any actual concern for Jacob.
Even from our perspective, I don’t think there’s any reason to think Jacob isn’t happy with the relationship – though we can worry about the warning signs in Raidah’s behavior. He doesn’t see them.
Jacob seems happy and Raidah seems happy, they’re nice to each other and they go together pretty well. It’s not particularly happy but it’s functional.
Also Raidah has never lied to Jacob about Sarah, you just don’t understand what conflicting points of view looks like.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/feigned/
This might be lying by omission but it IS lying.
Nah, lie by omission is when you conceal there is even something to conceal, she flat out says she’d rather discuss this later when their relationship is more developed.
Interesting – I read her quite differently. She doesn’t want to go deeper into it and manipulates the situation so Jacob feels protective about her. Without giving him anything at all that Sarah didn’t just out-of-the-blue hit her (and she already had apologized at this point, if I remember correctly). So bringing the slap in the face up at all was already a manipulative move.
A fair person would have said “there’s a complicated history and I think she is toxic and should not be part of my life. let’s discuss something more appropriate to a second date.”
I hate Raidah nearly as much as Mary, because she’s such a skilled and unrepentant manipulator.
The attack doesn’t tell the whole story, but it is certainly the high light as far as Raidah is concerned. “This person might hit you if you make her angry” is pertinent information to share. Just because she doesn’t tell the same story as Sahara doesn’t mean she is manipulating the story, it means she has a different perspective on it.
You imply that Raidah really believes she never did anything wrong towards Sarah.
I can’t imagine how this could be -even Mary knows when she’s not playing fair. She just thinks she’s justified.
Well if she has any doubt or remorse about her treatment of Sarah we certainly haven’t seen it. I have no reason to believe she thinks she’s in the wrong.
is a ‘broken’ woke Joyce the same as pulling the drama tag?
I’m pretty sure the drama tag got pulled at strip #3
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/reputation/
Well that went better than I expected, Joyces normal go to default setting when frustrated is anger but here shes a bit more subdued
I’m curious whether Joyce is drawing the right conclusions here. Hopefully so, but there’ll be drama either way.