Yeah, either Jacob would have to have massive, hulking Liefeldian biceps, or Joyce would have to have an eerily thin Liefeldian waist. I guess what I’m saying is, it’s too bad that DoA isn’t drawn by Rob Liefeld.
Please take back that last sentence. I respect a lot of what Leifeld has attempted to do in the comics industry (especially his role in pushing creator ownership), but his visual and narrative aesthetic aren’t among those things and his look would simply fail in this type of comic… it could maybe have worked ok-ish in the more combat focused parts of IW!… maybe…
So, whose outfit would have lots of pouches, and which character would regularly be drawn with twice as many teeth in their mouth as an actual human does?
Don’t forget the alien anatomy with potato feet, spines like that of an owl, rib cages the size of a standard whiskey barrel, musculature of a Belgian Blue with extra muscles.
And now that you’ve said that David M Willis is probably going to reveal Jacob’s dark past where he, I dunno, stole amiibos from the elderly or something.
The elderly should be wise enough to know that th Giant Horse is far superior to the Epona Amiibo, and available in the canyon south of the Great Plateau.
Of course is not the case, you can’t be a sex addict when you are saving yourself for “the one”. (I’m admittedly worried for when he has his first time though.) D:
He’s definitely nice, kind, and compassionate. But he’s still dating someone else and has his arm around Joyce. I’m sure he doesn’t mean it in any untoward way, but I’m also sure he might not be doing it if Raidah was sitting next to him.
If I’m remembering right–and forgive me, it’s been a while since I’ve been there–this is just what the stained-glass windows look like at Trinity Episcopal Church in Bloomington. Given that Willis nailed the exterior of the building a couple of days ago, it wouldn’t surprise me that he got the interior right, too. His attention to detail about the particulars of Bloomington is astounding.
It is good, for Willis’ sake, that they didn’t go to a Catholic church. Even my not big, very ordinary, Catholic church of childhood had stained glass windows with figure and storytelling.
And I don’t even know if this.church has the stations of the cross!
From the “About/Read before posting page”:
“7) This is important: Joyce is autobiographical. Like Joyce, I believed in the complete inerrancy of the Bible — Earth is 6000 years old, Noah’s Ark, gay folks are evil, everything — and our family attended multiple churches of various persuasions, from Methodist to Baptist to Evangelical Free. But not shallowly, no. We spent years climbing up the social hierarchies of those mofos until we uncovered assholes and/or corruption and had to move on. I went to youth group every week, attended every sermon (because there was more than one) every weekend, and went to church summer camp (at Anderson University). My dad was routinely a Deacon. At one point he even tried starting his own church. Consider this information before goin’ off on me about how I don’t know anything about Christians or whatever. And like Joyce, I was raised as a nondenominational fundamentalist (nonaligned Protestant), which means she’s not Catholic. She doesn’t own a crucifix, she doesn’t believe in saints or have pictures of Jesus anywhere, and she thinks the Pope is more likely to be the Anti-Christ than someone she should listen to. I say this only because folks really like to yell at her for all sorts of Catholic stuff she wouldn’t do. Get your kinds of Christians sorted out!”
But look at the current Comic: Sans crosses. All Joyce needs to do is align her view with ours, then it’s just what? Robes and colored glass? No problem.
A part of me keeps saying that “there’s no way that joyce’s somehow both understated and enormously strict style of church” actually exists, but I’m left with the deep and unsettling feeling that it might be more common than I think.
That’s kind of my point, since the dancing + peppy music + electric guitar isn’t really churchy to me, if that makes sense? It doesn’t have that serene atmosphere that I associate with churches. *shrugs*
Think less serene, and more “energetic-in-the-worked-up-into-frothing-fervor-and-talking-in-tongues-style”. …. except I don’t think her PARTICULAR church does talking in tongues. But they do still get worked up.
the Protestant church I went to a few times growing up was definitely Very Loud with dancing and singing and peppy music and electric guitars and they had a whooooole fancy sound system with big screens so everyone could see. It was extremely fun! I found it highly ironic that all the equipment cost a fortune, but they refused to be anywhere that looked austere. so the church itself was an old abandoned warehouse-containment thing, looked like a grey box from outside, with folding chairs. This wasn’t even in the US, so I guess it must be prevalent elsewhere. A Methodist church I went to definitely had the whole Fancy Church vibe with plenty of quiet time and hymns. A Baptist one was similar, but felt much preachier.
I think you mean ‘refused to be anywhere that didn’t look austere’. Because setting up folding chairs in an undecorated warehouse is definitely austere.
Passchendaele, as I type this, there are at least 10 comments earlier than yours that as yet have no follow-up comments. The particular commenting section niche you lampshaded yesterday is no longer occupied by you, at least for the moment.
Congratulations or condolences, which ever applies.
(I wouldn’t know much anyway, because I’ve always been an atheist and haven’t really gone to church. Mom and dad both did (Methodist/Episcopalian, respectively), but they never got much out of it, so I’ve stayed away from churches in general, much less protestant fundamentalist ones. So Joyce’s style of church is probably more eerie to me than it should be. :P)
Oh no, they are eerie even when you are used to them. It takes a lot of creepy bullshit to basically form a death cult that believes ending the world faster is part of God’s plan.
I am officially still not shipping Jacob and Joyce, and yesterday’s strip convinced me more than ever that I was right to not do so. Today? Not so sure.
In the middle of her panic attack, she becomes aware of Jacob’s physical closeness, and even though he isn’t actually touching her, that alone is enough to bring a blush to her cheek and bring her big blue eyes back from pinpricks. And the only thing in her line of sight is the tip of his hand on the other side of her shoulder.
But it’s not just Joyce. Jacob’s facial expression is — it seems to me — a little bit beyond just friendly concern.
Right? I’ve been doing a reread and actually raidah was consistently pretty awful?going out of her way to be just hateful to Sarah. Her more recent and bigger scenes haven’t been *quiiite* so unequivocal, so I was more on the fence, but no more.
This Raidah is not evil she’s a misanthrope and hates Sarah for personal reasons but we’ve never seen her display other personality traits or have development of what Jacob actually likes about her contrary to how he and Joyce had a nearly instant connection and their attraction is obvious and the relationship is cute and full of potential
That’s just it, Raidah hasn’t had much character development beyond “Sarah’s archnemesis”.
Sarah’s hands aren’t exactly clean here. She can argue that she called Dana’s father out of concern for her worsening depression, but Raidah isn’t wrong to say Sarah only did that for herself after it started affecting her GPA.
We know the Raidah-Sarah backstory stuff, but Jacob doesn’t — or at best, he has only heard it from Raidah’s side.
And while we don’t know whether or not Raidah has ever been to Jacob’s church, or he to prayer at Bloomington’s Islamic Center, I’m pretty sure Raidah wouldn’t freak out. (I would not at all surprise me to find out that Jacob has been to prayer at a mosque, to services at a Jewish synagogue, etc. etc.
Raidah wouldn’t freak out. Jacob wouldn’t freak out. Joyce did.
Joyce will get over it. I’ve got faith in her. That in itself isn’t a bar to Jacob and Joyce.
I also wonder if she would have handled it better if she had been better prepared – known what she was getting into and being taken more as “learn about my church and culture” thing. But she wasn’t. She was going to church to worship, like she does every week. Assuming Jacob’s actually reasonably devout, while he may have gone with Raidah it would have been to observe and he still would have gone to church.
Wonder if Joyce will decide this didn’t count and she still needs to go to church today.
No they wouldn’t work. They are in completely different places maturity wise, Jacob would have to spend half his time teaching Joyce and the other half helping Joyce (and her circle) out with all the issues she faces
Jacob shouldn’t have to do any of this when all he really wants is to get on with studying which is what hes getting with Raidah
No I don’t think That’s a problem necessarily Jacob is understanding and there are many other to help as well and Joyce learns quickly and has been shown to put a lot of effort into growing once she learns something. The relationship would be awkward as Joyce works through her hang ups but it could work just like her relationship with Sarah worked out with mutual effort
This is basically why I’m not shipping Joyce/Jacob. Next (in-universe) year? Definitely possible. In her freshman year/his sophomore year? Unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. Raidah and Jacob are at a comparable maturity level and Joyce is just not there yet.
That said: the one thing we don’t get to know reading this comic is actual physical chemistry. If you are standing a little too close to someone and you are tingling from the top of your head to the tip of your toe, that is chemistry. Practicality and religious beliefs and social pressure can override physical chemistry, but the last is still a very powerful force in physical attraction.
Right now, he’s not even touching her, and she’s blushing and he’s got a kind of goofy expression on face? And I’m probably reading too much into this, but I think there’s something going on there.
I mean frankly we only know Sarah and Joyce’s perspective because that the intentional bias of the strip. I’m not saying Raidah is completely innocent just that it is totally Willis’ style to make us hate her only to turn around, and show her perspective. Definitely seems to be an attraction between Joyce and Jacob though.
FWIW, I always found hymns real hard to play on guitar until I realised that using a wah pedal and a tube screamer just cracked open means each chord can be swept in gently and just let the sustain do the rest.
Even better if playing through a Leslie speaker. (see again: Presence of the Lord.)
I *really* want to hear this. I have been out of the church for a long time, but I miss that music. Don’t really play electric guitar anymore (sorry, Joyce) but I still have one from my church-going youth, complete with Jesus fish sticker. Fake SG with fake Bigsby vibrato, by Ibanez.
Jacob is handling this situation very well, BUT, I don’t see him as the kind of man who would put his foot on a church pew like that. Seems… disrespectful.
As a general rule, a church pew is just a piece of furniture. Granted, as with anything one does in a church, everything one does has to be filtered through the “is-this-disrespectful?” lens. But as a rule, if butts can sit on it without being disrespectful, feet can rest on it without being disrespectful.
As a person who once played chamber music in churches as venues (and not as part of a service), one of the first things you learn is to ask what can and cannot moved (or even touched) in the area on and around the altar/sanctuary/chancel. But I’ve never heard of anyone objecting to putting feet on a pew.
Honestly I graduated from the fancy kind of hymns ,pews and slow hymmm Baptist churches where you dressed up to the casual churches with folding chairs and electric guitars and Joyce’s attitude is kinda unfamiliar to me.
Granted my mom’s parents are Catholic so I didn’t really see any of the intense anti-Catholic attitudes at home and I never really asked my fellow churchgoers their opinion on Catholics.
At least one commenter has said that Mary is a character they love to hate.
Beatrice has been growing on me rapidly, but even if I vote over again, I could never not vote for Dina, and I’m not yet ready to take a vote away from Jacob or Becky.
It doesn’t necessarily mean they agree with her views as much as they might like the character growth other characters develop from being in her blighted presence.
I think Mary makes a good foil/antagonist to a lot of characters. She’s not in my top three, but I see why people like her. I don’t understand how people like Malaya. I think people just find her attractive.
It’s funny, the placement of the stain glass windows almost make it look like there are little hearts floating around Becky’s head when she mentions lovesickness and Joyce’s when she notices Jacob’s proximity.
Hashtag like! Man Jacob is a gorgeous man person. And dang, everything about how he’s dealing with this situation says the ship sails!
Poor Becky tho. She’s feeling this.
It is and it’s a sign of how natural he is at thinking of how to support folks. Like, asking a trusted friend what to do instead of assuming you know what to do is something that takes a lot of humility and very much more likely to get a good result.
I’m an atheist, but if I did go to church for some reason I’d probably prefer Jacob’s type of church to Joyce’s. I like older church architecture and stained glass windows, and I’d rather listen to boring hymns than Christian rock music.
You know, having grown up in New Mexico with a Catholic dad, I think I had a similar (though much lower intensity) reaction to Joyce the first time I walked into a church like Joyce’s in college.
In my old church the stained glass windows were sort of abstract but seemed to also sort of show things relating to Christianity, like crosses and crap, so I would sit there driving myself crazy the whole sermon just staring at those windows, trying to determine if they were showing a cross and a person on purpose, or if I was just making up the shapes.
Well Jacob has has been portrayed as basically perfect so far so it’d be nice to see something, anything that makes him human but I don’t think thats his intention here
Having been in a similar situation as Jacob’s (young woman of my acquaintance being upset next to me in a pew in church and me putting an arm around her to comfort her) I would guess the expression could also mean: “Oops, I’m enjoying having my arm around this person a bit too much”.
Cerberus totally nailed Becky’s attitude. She’s aware that Joyce is freaking out and goes into support mode, including a lighthearted “Wacky Becky” routine to keep things silly.
She herself is chill as a bean. Good is cool, and can hang out in any church he likes.
This is a really, really well done AMV. It would be nice if they actually linked to the Not Literally video, but NL were properly credited in both the comments and the video, so no complaints.
As far as I can tell, my use of the handle predates the artist. The earliest I could find of them using it (admitedly not after a particularly thorough search) was 2012, and I started using this handle back in 2010, when I tried out LoL and decided it was time for a new handle.
But yeah. That still feels kinda wierd. Thanks for pointing it out.
Agh my browser did that stupid thing where instead of refreshing the page it just showed you the outdated version again. I did not mean to attempt a second claim on the above’s cookie award!
Ok yeah so my au-dar has been going crazy around Joyce for a long time but I think it’s time for this autistic person (me) to announce that Joyce is undoubtedly autistic and amazing and lovely. Like, her social interactions? Her wearing the same kind of clothes forever (and wanting to keep her bloodstained sweater because no she won’t say goodbye to a sweater she liked)? Her sending false-positives she’s not aware of? Her food pickiness? Her aversion to new things and changes?
Yep she’s autistic.
DW thoughts?
Hmmm, maybe? I still think a lot of it is her extremely sheltered background, being told that Catholic Churches were tools of Satan and people who went to them were hellbound, and seeing a lot of “Cathy-y” things in the Episcopal Church. And some of her other freak outs were over religion-related things, which have been drummed into her from an early age. She might have an extremely overactive imagination.
You could say Becky doesn’t act that way, but all neurotypical people aren’t the same.
As far as not liking change or different things, many neurotypical people don’t like things to be different, which is why some of them have trouble accepting autistic people when they react differently to what the neurotypical person expects.
On the other hand, Joyce’s extreme pickiness about food could point to sensory issues, so that would be a point in favor of her being autistic.
Her social awkwardness could be autism or it could be from being homeschooled and not seeing a wide variety of people. Or. Oth!
I d’know. If she is on the autism spectrum, she’s gotta be pretty mild. I don’t think I’ve ever met in autistic person who communicated their thoughts as well as she does without boatloads of practice that I’m not sure she has. (I went through that myself, btw, I case anyone wants to tell me I’m just biased against autistic people)
That said you basically described me, and I did eventually figure out how to communicate normally, so you might not be far off.
When I was doing my research I came across the thing the name of which I can’t remember right now but basically the ability to express yourself -too- well. Like the ‘did your mom write this for you?’ well (quote taken from experience from my 5th grade. I WAS SO PROUD it helped that the teacher believed me when I said no I wrote this myself)
anyway the point is, as far as I know it kind of goes both ways with autistic people…
I am intensely envious of Joyce’s social personality and complete lack of social anxiety tho. Maybe this is one huge benefit she got out of being homeschooled…
“dash of hugs”: a dash is a kind of measurement you might find in a casual-style cookbook, like just spilling a small amount of (oil on a frying pan, say).
“add just a dash of oil to the frying pan”
so she’s saying, “some hugs” in her own beautiful Becky way.
It’s an imprecise measurement, usually in reference to a cooking recipe. Like ‘a dash of pepper’. In this case, the recipe for a working Joyce includes a dash of hugs, probably more or less to taste.
As we see, Jacob doesn’t even need a whole hug to restore working Joyce.
A dash is a cooking measurement for a small amount, like maybe you do a quick shake from the container. So Becky is giving the prescription as a recipe. I hope that helps.
Depends, but a lot of Episcopalian families don’t head to church every Sunday anymore, if my family is anything to judge by. Kids might be in Sunday School, or getting ready to put on a play, too.
Optimally, the church is sized for the maximum number of attendees — Easter Sunday and Christmas Eve generally being the most attended services. On an ordinary Sunday in early-to-mid October, there’s probably plenty of room in back. (Churches are the one space where people willingly congregate toward the front.)
In the Netherlands, that rather depends on your church. I have seen quite a few churches where the front pews are empty. And in some Roman Catholic churches I’ve attended, pews fill up from the center aisle outwards, probably because the priest walks down the aisle when wishing his parishioners the peace, and that’s somehow more valuable than wishing the peace to other members of the parish.
A good church is designed to hold the maximum number of people that might attend a service. That number of people will not always show up every week, but the capacity is there, for when it’s needed.
Wow, Jacob is a nice guy. He takes responsibility (though he hasn’t any), asks Becky how she deals with this kind of think, knowing she’s usually the one to help Joyce out.
And I love Becky straightforward answer (should i laugh or should I cry?).
Panel 1: Joyce is really not okay with change. And that’s valid. Some people need a certain routine to function and for Joyce she has the added wait of being told all her life that certain actions or certain thoughts will instantly damn her forever in a lack of fire, which tends to add extra wait to those patterns.
And that’s going to be especially true with something like church. Like, she’s falling out of faith, feeling disconnected from her old church, but that doesn’t mean she’s in a headspace where she can handle a church that is radically different than what she associates with church.
And it makes me suspect that Joyce’s arc is going to end up atheist, because she’s having a lot more trouble with those shifting changes than Becky is and I think she’s going to find it easier to abandon faith wholesale than to switch to a different type of church-going Christian, especially since her home faith believes any change like this to be the equivalent of going atheist anyways.
Also, so many cheers for Becky and Jacob throughout this whole strip and it really starts here. Jacob recognizing and centering the hyperventilating and recognizing that as a problem rather than mocking her for it (Walky for his many positive traits, would definitely poke fun at a time like this).
And Becky. I fucking love Becky. The concern on her face, knowing this is serious and trying to support but worrying about being too affectionately supportive in a place of worship given her history of experiences with these places and likely a lot of moments in quiet hope in the pews growing up.
And that joke. It’s just liquid ambrosia and I am so here for it.
Panels 2-3: Jacob is really good at crisis management and emotional de-escalation and if he doesn’t make it as a lawyer, he’d make an excellent therapist or social worker. Like he’s a master of that helpful but supportive style and that calm laying out of what he can and cannot deliver. Plus, the dropping to her eye level. It’s a lot of advanced techniques for a college sophomore/freshman.
And Becky’s comments here are fierce. It’s real statements of what helps, while she keeps a close eye on the situation, while also revealing some of the pain lingering underneath. She loves more than anything to support Joyce. It’s a key part of how she views their friendship. But her crush is not completed vanished yet and there’s a part of this that still hurts her.
And yet she tries to do right by Joyce anyways, because she views it as right and important and it shows just how important things like friendship are to her and how grateful she has been to have Joyce in her life helping her in her darkest time.
I really don’t see Joyce ever going atheist. Faith in higher powers is too central a part of her. But I think she’ll gradually be more open to celebrating God in new ways, new interpretations. One day we’ll see her at a Jewish wedding.
There are many lawyers who make a living in collaborative law. Jacob would be a natural at it.
But this is one of Joyce’s central conflicts. YES, Faith is very much a central part of her.
But even more central to her is her love of people, especially her friends.
The two keep being forced into conflict — her parents’ hatred of Dorothy, her religion’s condemnation and suppression of Becky (and Ethan), the marginalization she received from her home church after the Toedad incident. Each time she (perhaps with some hesitation) puts aside faith in religion and keeps faith with her friends, and each time her faith in her religion crumbles a bit more. Every time she has faith in her religion it fails her, while her love for her friends comes back to reward her. And she has shown repeatedly that she has too much integrity and too much attention to the details to simply gloss over the problems with her faith and pretend there’s no conflict at all.
I’ve listened to a lot of deconversion stories, and roughly half of them follow this path: loving people the church tells them to hate, and becoming alienated from the church as a result. A very common next step is to start questioning how everything holds together, and we’re already seeing hints of Joyce doing that as well, yet all the while clinging tighter to their faith, with a growing desperation, until it finally crumbles despite their best efforts. Joyce is showing signs of that desperation in a way that strongly contrasts with Becky.
YES, there are other denominations she could join that won’t force her religious faith into conflict with her love for her friends. But as Cerb notes, Joyce isn’t exactly taking well to other denominations. So what does that leave?
Joyce has never been exposed to other denominations in any sort of depth. I really don’t see how her being uncomfortable with new things has anything to do with her becoming atheist, so long as she surrounds herself with friends who pull her into new experiences.
Joyce has a love of people and community, and she will easily find that in churches. Her preconceptions have had to fall, but they were always peripheral to her central faith in God, which has remained strong through some serious trauma. Even through her worst times, Joyce has always been angry at people and the world, never at God or her religious upbringing.
I myself choose to believe in God, but place far more priority on logic and rationality and far less on community and celebration than Joyce. There isn’t enough proper evidence to prove God exists. I haven’t gone to church in years, though I’m glad Pope Francis is in charge now. From this particular perspective of mine, I see Joyce finding her own religious community eventually. Almost zero chance of atheism. Possible Unitarian if pushed in just the right way hard enough.
Willis went atheist. It’s very likely Joyce will follow that arc.
We’ve also seen the contrast in Joyce and Becky over religion. Becky’s easily able to modify her beliefs to take on new things – “God answers lesbian prayers” and science, etc.
Joyce’s are all wrapped up too tightly together. If one thing is wrong, then everything is a goddamned lie.
Joyce does not just hold on tight to her love of God, she also holds on tight to her denial of biology and geology, and to her these things are too tightly interwoven to be torn apart. She’s already told Becky once a line of logic that I don’t completely remember but that ended up with “if the things I have learned growing up aren’t literally true, that means God hurt people on purpose”. Joyce cannot reconcile that the way Becky has, cannot say “God is good, he is just not like what I was taught”. To her, what she was taught is all there is to God, so if she rejects her parents’ faith, she rejects God. What faith is to Joyce is fundamentally incompatible with the new truths she’s discovering, and while there is a slight chance of her finding a new one, I wouldn’t put much stock in it.
(Becky probably has been reconciling disrepancies in what she was taught and what she experienced since early childhood, and has based her faith on things that are not in any way connected to relying on other churchgoers’ opinions and interpretations, because she -never- could rely on them. To Joyce, faith IS relying on other churchgoers’ opinions and interpretations, and there’s nothing to the idea of God that’s not tied to that)
I don’t see her going atheist but I could definitely see her quitting church and probably going on a non organized personal relationship with god and her beliefs sort of route.
Since she grew up in a non-structured church where basically anyone can be an entrepreneur and start their own church, moving to a church of one isn’t a big step.
I get what you’re saying, and don’t disagree. I also agree with Trolldrool about it being autobiographical, but wasn’t 100% sure where Willis was religiously now so didn’t bring it up.
Just to explain, as someone raised non-religiously, I’m basing assumptions off part of my family, who are super churchgoing religious (founded in dutch reform but now very strict nondenominational protestant, probably because they had no dutch reformist church to attend). We had to hide it from them that we didn’t go to church when I was younger (my parents may still do this), so the idea of anyone I perceive as ‘like them’ quitting church feels extreme.
Considering Joyce is something of an auto biographical character for Willis, I wouldn’t be surprised if she ends up becoming an atheist eventually. Whether it’s something that happens before or after the comic is finished is a different matter. I think Becky is much more likely to keep her faith in the end.
I had to look up Becky’s joke in the first panel. I found something on Wikipedia called “Sans-Serif”. I may be a bit slow here, but is Becky saying Joyce finds the church too ornate?
Jacob asks what Joyce wants and it’s so damn careful and gentle and perfect… Willis, you keep giving us lovely stuff, thank you.
Becky’s bit about unrequited lovesickness… she just Beckys that in with her direct complete honesty (is it how she’s handled it in the past or is it a current issue?), hands it over to Jacob as something he’s able to handle, and Jacob just rolls with it. So damn good.
Somebody hand Joyce a copy of Frankie Schaeffer’s Crazy For God, in which the famous son of the famous scholar and filmmaker goes through his crisis of faith and doesn’t become atheist… but doesn’t remain an evangelical either. Wonderful book.
Well, it’s time Joyce learned that there’s more than one way to worship and there’s more to Christianity than her denomination. I personally like church architecture with stained glass though. Churches here I’ve seen with it are Catholic, Anglican and United (United Church of Canada) and between that and the nice woodwork and things like pipe organs and proper choirs I like. That’s about all I like these days though in regards to church. The Pentecostals kind of ruined it for me. I wish mom hadn’t moved us from the United to the Pentecostal church…perhaps my dislike for religion wouldn’t be so bad as it is now.
She’s in the US equivalent of an Anglican church, the Episcopalian church. The Anglican church itself is very similar to Catholicism, differing in… female and homosexual clergy (in some regions), clergy being allowed to marry, and something about the flesh of Christ. Instead of looking up to the pope, regions technically look up to the Archbishop of Canterbury and through him the Crown, but honestly they’re largely autonomous (with the Episcopal Church being largely more liberal than its peers, the one religious area America actually LEADS in!). Anyways, the Episcopal church is basically Catholicism Lite (Liberal Edition), while the Anglican Church is just Catholicism Lite.
Panel 4: I feel like Jacob is the perfect counterpoint to the whole cult of toxic masculinity. Like, so many men are sold this idea that to be a “man” one must reject all femininity and flee from things like empathy, seeing women as people, or not projecting strength at all times lest you be considered a woman.
And it destroys the people who buy in the most. But for so many, it’s hard to see another model of masculinity that doesn’t fit into that toxic mold. But here we see that masculinity bright as day. Jacob is tough, yes, well-built yes, but that is not for the purpose of winning any pissing contest.
He is not afraid to show empathy, to do right by others, even if it means apologizing or showing vulnerability. He works hard to do right by others around him and engage them as equals deserving respect.
And it’s beautiful to see that and to have it illustrated so clear that for all the blathering about how toxic masculinity is the only way to win girls, this is the masculinity that people are far more attracted to. Like, Jacob’s kindness and care mixed with his attractive body makes him the sort of person many who are attracted to men jump at (much like Chris Evans).
And it makes him a better person too.
Panel 5: Oh dear Joyce… you have it bad and are going down a dark and dangerous road…
What I really like about this strip is Jacob’s smile in panel 5. As I suspected, he knows that Joyce is crushing on him and he’s not in any way threatened, offended or worried about it. Instead, I think that he’s ready to tackle it head-on and let her down gently.
Like really what’s the point of religion without the beautiful architecture and the formal ceremony and the fancy robes? Takes all the fun out of it lol
Hahaha, man. Where I grew up, Christian culture and style was highly influenced by Anabaptists (Amish, Mennonite, non-southern Baptists, Quakers, Shakers, and Puritan-influenced non-denominational-but-vaguely-Lutheran-esque churches).
I currently attend an Episcopalian church, which I love and find the service lovely, and I’ve found good things in other churches’ services. But a small part of me has absorbed, deep down, that simplicity and plain-ness are vital to proper holiness. It’s obviously ridiculous because beauty and joy are *also* holy things, but I still have that gut reaction sometimes of, “Is that gold in the stained glass? That could’ve fed ten people!” Although clearly my hangup is different than Joyce’s because electric guitars were definitely also “unholy”.
On the other hand, for a lot of history and even in some places today, church patronage was the only reason certain sorts of art were ever not Just For Rich People. Yeah they could’ve fed ten people, once, back when the church first got built, but over the years since hundreds of people have gotten time in environment they just wouldn’t get to experience in their regular life without that “wasted” money.
^^^ in this whole discussion, this is the comment I’ve felt the most right about. I was raised Orthodox… the kind that has never been to a single church service but has visited many over the country in a tourist-y way and has been taught how to behave properly and be respectful in them… so really most of this discussion comes from an utterly alien place to me. But “poor people can have nice things” has a very right ring to it, as something that’s the church’s job. Alongside teaching people to read and write (historically, people have been largely literate in Ukraine’s territory long before it became common for -nobles- to be literate in Western Europe), just simply -having- art and beautiful architecture in it are huuge points in favor of churches.
The point is being Right with a capital “R” and being sure of it by means of a direct connection to god, which is signified by a bubbly feeling that’s incredibly easy to induce using willpower and a small handful of simple techniques. Once your church zeroes in on that, nothing else matters, and the classical ways start to look a lot like needless distractions which just might have been all along designed to get in the way by our old pal Satan. Y’know, because annoying god is apparently his one and only job, and “look what I told them you’re into” is as good a technique as any.
I know, right? The stained glass windows were always my favorite part. Especially going to another church and seeing *their* windows and how they were different.
I wuv all kinds of architecture and glass art and church history there is especially appealing, but my converted-commercial-building church has donuts and chocolate biscuits and (this Sunday only) cake and ice cream, and I know where I’m gonna be.
I adore Jacob but I honestly think he’s too mature for Joyce. I’m not saying Joyce herself is immature (we saw unsuspected maturity from her in the last Do List arc) but so far she seems like a cute child around Jacob every time, which he addresses kindly but… I’m not into shipping couples where the partners don’t seem to be on the same level.
Jacob is just so lovable man.
I’d go straight for Jacob.
But I kind of agree, like I think the ship is cute, but I think Joyce still has a lot of learning and growing to do before she could ever date him. That, of course, would be only if he and Raidah broke up, obviously. Plus, Jakes has had a rough time with jealous exes, and Joyce… isn’t really the super chill notjealous kind of girlfriend, even from the brief interaction of Ethan and Amber.
Completely unrelated to todays strip, but in class we’ve been having discussions about the idea of masculinity and the difference between what masculinity was in the era right after WWII and what masculinity is now. I wanted to talk about how certain types of masculinity came into existence and how they led to things like objectification, rape culture and ruined as many lives as possible, but I couldn’t voice a the thoughts rolling around in my head and all that came out was a garbled mess. I’m planning to bring it up again tomorrow but i don’t have any good talking points. Can you guys help?
Not sure it helps, but I’d definitely argue that rape culture and objectification long predate WWII, they were just much less acknowledged back then. They were just the way things were.
If there was less rape (outside of marital rape, which didn’t count at the time), it’s because women were more controlled, more like possessions. When it did happen, it was even more likely to be blamed on the woman than it is today and she was far more likely to be shamed for it and of course, not to report it.
The 50’s era masculinity was defined by being successful, unchallenged (especially in being a heterosexual man), and rather emotionless.
Arguably today’s masculinity is the same, the amount of self-introspection in regards to gender we’ve done since then varies depending on who you ask.
It’s pretty depressing that seventy years on, after showing so much progress in civil rights and becoming more accepting of queer people, our society still reinforces the idea of men unable to show emotion if they want to be a “real” man
I’m having a little trouble understanding why Joyce is basically hyperventilating at a new church setting? I know she’s not privy to new things, to the point that they’re terrifying, yes, but my understanding of Christianity is limited when it comes down to the differences between the churches.
Is it just because it’s so radically different than what she’s used to or something more? Her faith has already wavered from her own fellow churchmembers failing her (which I understand full well from my experiences in a Lutheran setting before I refused to return to it) but I’m not sure how to sympathize in this regard? I suppose it’s no different than my confusion over Catholic sermons, with the constant up and down of kneeling, but I always chalked that up to the fact that the church I was raised at didn’t do those things.
TL;DR: Is there something in Joyce’s upbringing that would bring her to a panic attack state regarding the faith, if only because of it being different than her own? Or something deeper that I’m missing here? Thanks!
Joyce went to a non-aligned fundamentalist protestant church. One of the “teachings” of her church is that catholics are somehow bad. (She may have been told that the pope is the antichrist.)
The Episcoplainan church is protestant (i.e. they don’t follow the pope), but it maintains many of the trappings of catholocism. (As Joyce pointed out, priests wear robes/collars, there is stained glass, etc.) It looks close enough to a catholic church that it reminds her of her teachings that “catholic=bad”.
I think there might even have been a line about Dorothy “At least she is not catholic” regarding her atheism so that might give you some idea about how Joyce’s church feels about that.
I’m not certain (not being Catholic myself), but isn’t part of Catholicism that the Bible isn’t THE supreme authority, but just one out of many scriptures that need to be interpreted to find the truth? Unlike Fundamentalist Protestantism where the Bible is the highest authority and infallible.
Unless I’ve gotten that wrong, I imagine that’d be another reason fundies don’t like them.
To be fair there is some point to that. Bible was made of… I think 4 books written or dictated by different Apostles or their students. But there was more of them, I think there is even a Judas apocrypha. So early in it’s history the Christians picked which books to chose for their Bible while forgetting the other existed.
Absolutely. Accounts vary, but something like 35 different people wrote the bible. Possibly four contributors to the Pentateuch. It’s a big anthology, and the ‘development’ of the canonical inclusion is a convoluted path. Wonder if Joyce knows this…
Yep. All those New Testament weren’t even written by people who had met Jesus (the Apostles and Disciples believed the Kingdom of God was to happen during their lifetimes, so they didn’t bother writing down their own accounts) but by disciples of disciples or even disciples or disciples or disciples…
And the Catholic Church selected the books they liked and tried to destroy the rest… I wonder how many fundies know that the Bible they study is basically a Roman Edition, and not something handed down directly from Jesus and his Apostles…
Actually, the term “Catholic”, meaning “Universal” started to be used at the beginning of the second century.
But anyways, the Council of Nicea happened in 325, and the New Testament wasn’t trimmed down to the current books at least until the Council of Rome, in 382. As a matter of fact, some part of the New Testament, like the Epistle to the Hebrews and the Apocalypse, still were in doubt during the fifth century!
Oh sorry, I misunderstood, you meant that the Catholic Church didn’t exist until the Great Schism?
The Orthodox Church official name is Eastern Catholic Orthodox Church, while what people commonly call Catholic Church is the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church existed before the Great Schism, and both halves still consider themselves the “Catholic Church”.
As a catholic, I think it’s more that we’re taught not to take things in the bible too literal. The first time I heard the word metaphor was during Godsdienst (religious classes) in school.
We were taught pretty early on that stories like Adam and Even, or the Ark of Noah and so on, weren’t necessarily things that happened in real history, but that they were a way ancient people used to explain things they did not yet understand. It’s part of why Catholics in general don’t have a problem with the evolution theory, because we (well in Belgium at least) are taught that the events described at the beginning of Genesis were a story, rather than real life events. And that there’s nothing in the bible that really contradicts the big bang theory.
Biblical literalism is actually a fairly modern thing — most of Church history has theologians clearly interpreting the Bible as an extended metaphor. Interpreting the Bible as literal truth only became common with the advent of (Protestant) vernacular Bibles, which allowed a wide variety of non-theologians to approach the Bible, and come to their own (often wildly naïve) interpretations.
An alternate/supplemental explanation I ran across was that biblical literalism was a backlash to rapid scientific advancement around the time of the Industrial Revolution. All of a sudden many things that ware long assumed to be supernatural now had mundane explanations, and certain sects decided to say, “No! Our traditional stories are how things really happened!” (Paraphrasing from possibly-erroneous memory.)
When I was taught about the Old Testament, half the subject was more Ancient History rather than religious studies, so we would understand that bronze age nomads weren’t necessarily good role models just because they appear in a holy book. The general attitude was like “look, everybody was like that then, God worked with what He had…”
Of course, that brings into question God’s Omnipotence and Onniscience… if he has manipulated Evolution in order to create humans and human culture, couldn’t he have created a non-asshole version of Humanity?
The main difference is, the Catholic Church believes that, since two contradictory interpretations of the Holy Book can’t be both true, one must be false. Hence people can, in their own, come to wrong interpretations, which is ti be avoided…
So you need an army of scholars and experts to study, analyze and discuss the text, and decide which is the interpretation most likely to be true…
not Catholic, but from a Catholic country myself (our president went to Vatican last week to ask in person for a Pope’s visit next year…). The Church regards nearly as high as the Bible the “good old traditions” and the literary works of some Saints. Also, there used to be that the Pope’s words were regarded as “infalible”. Funnily enough, among the good old traditions were, somehow, the oral teaching of some of the books that were rejected from the Bible, like “The Gospel of Child Jesus”. I found that some stories from the TGoCJ made their way into the religion courses books sanctioned in chatolic schools as far as the third quarter of the XX century in my country. 🙂
Yep, Catholicism founds its doctrine on two principles, Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition. This sets it apart from most Protestant churches which are “sola scriptura” or Bible only. Sacred Scripture is the Bible. Whereas Sacred Tradition is the customs of the Church, this is the one most none-catholic churches miss (excepting Orthodox).
Remember that, to Joyce, this isn’t set dressing she’s stressing out about. These are critical aspects of sacred service and she has been taught that the things she doesn’t like about Jacob’s church are heretical and even blasphemous. This is not a small thing for a personality like hers.
Exactly. It’s easy to make fun of Joyce for her screwed-up religious background, but her theology (such as it is presented), is fairly sound within the parameters of her presumably evangelical faith.
Ack, I meant to reply! Copy/paste:
Fundamental protestants, specifically the kind like Joyce’s family, tend to view Catholic-ish church trappings as “cultish.” . As a general theological view it dates back to Reformation-era iconoclasts, but if you’re raised going to a church with folding chairs and no decorations and an electric guitar, the robes and the stained glass and the statues of people dying horrible deaths will freak you out.
Though of course, if you’re Catholic, you view said trappings as normal/beautiful/part of a really long religious tradition, and it’s the evangelical Protestants with their lack of organized denominations and their speaking in tongues and their tendency to ask if you’ve been Saved who look like a cult. Ah, the beauty of anthropology.
Note how Joyce specifically freaked out on a theological point last strip. She hasn’t just been taught that this is ‘bad’, she has been taught the specific pointed ways in which every single different aspect is satanic, blasphemous and antithetical to the very idea of church. The way she sees it, she just stumbled into a satanic orgy that she’s being told is holy service, and has to somehow go along with it despite everything she has in the way of religious feeling screaming in panic.
This has been an interesting arc for me, because I usually resonate with Joyce’s background, having been raised in a conservative protestant environment myself, but – although I did kind of freak out myself on my first exposure to an Episcopal church – the stuff that she’s yearning after doesn’t line up with the church I grew up in much more than with the Episcopalians.
I grew up in a Southern Baptist church in South Georgia with stained glass, pews, hymns, and gospel music. The criticism of Christ being depicted on the cross is familiar, Rich Mullins is familiar (from outside-of-church listening and from the childrens’ choir routinely doing My God Is An Awesome God), but we were nowhere close to folding chairs and electric guitars.
Ah, that’s not to say her kind of church is “unrealistic” though, or anything! I know they exist, and I’ve visited them myself. It’s just a little funny to that young sheltered Christian I still remember being that she’s from the “praise team” vein of churches instead of the good ol’ fashioned choir vein of churches.
Jacob is being really nice about this. Can’t wait until Joyce hears the sermon and we see if she can get past the trappings of the room. She may find out objectionable people are unobjectionable.
Nondenominational evangelical Protestant, aka “the people most likely to believe Catholics and their ilk are going to Hell for celebrating Jesus wrong”.
At which nearly everybody is dressed as a version of chicken noodle.
I’d ask which soup would be the Deadpool cosplay equivalent, but somebody would probably just show up in actual Deadpool cosplay, maybe with an added soup theme.
Fundamental protestants, specifically the kind like Joyce’s family, tend to view Catholic-ish church trappings as “cultish.” . As a general theological view it dates back to Reformation-era iconoclasts, but if you’re raised going to a church with folding chairs and no decorations and an electric guitar, the robes and the stained glass and the statues of people dying horrible deaths will freak you out.
Though of course, if you’re Catholic, you view said trappings as normal/beautiful/part of a really long religious tradition, and it’s the evangelical Protestants with their lack of organized denominations and their speaking in tongues and their tendency to ask if you’ve been Saved who look like a cult. Ah, the beauty of anthropology.
Plus, “sans” is another word for “without,” and according to Joyce, a cross should not have Jesus on it. In other words, Joyce likes her crosses sans Jesus.
I don’t really get Becky’s behavior. Shouldn’t she be freaking out too?
Sure, she’s out now but she was still raised just as conservatively as Joyce. I just feel like one personal revelation (even one as big as coming out of the closet) wouldn’t change years of religious conditioning so quickly.
I get the feeling that Becky’s relationship with her faith was always a bit more lax and flexible than Joyce’s. Whereas Joyce is someone who is a creature of habit and prefers a consistent structure to her life, and consequentially her faith, Becky seems to be more the type to go “Eh, God is God, the trappings of worship don’t matter as much as the act of worship itself.” Of course, given her environment, she probably felt it prudent not to actually voice those thoughts.
Not necessarily lax, but she’s definitely more adaptable. Her concept of faith quickly accepted both her being a lesbian and her girlfriend’s teachings on evolution. Becky’s also likely been harboring doubts about her faith much longer, while Joyce’s wasn’t challenged until college.
Joyce struggled with homosexuality, trying to find a loophole to allow it with and still flat out rejects evolution because it would make her whole religion a goddamned lie.
Partly due to personal nature and partly due to personal history, I suspect, we’ve always seen them react differently to such crises. Her upbringing has a much tighter hold on Joyce, but while Becky’s will likely bend and adapt, but remain, Joyce’s will eventually snap and she’ll lose faith entirely.
Becky has known for a long time that she doesn’t really want to be part of that society. Her mother was driven to suicide, her dad is a freak, and all fundies think that she is a sick person at best and an agent of Satan at worst…
Joyce, on the other hand, wanted to be part of it. She was happy. She never noticed the ugly parts until recently.
It’s not ‘one revelation’. Joyce and Becky grew up in drastically different religious environments, from the inside point of view. Joyce grew up in a loving family where she lapped up every word she was told and built her entire worldview on ‘parents are never wrong’ and consequently ‘my parents’ interpretation of Christianity is the only possibly real one’.
Becky grew up with an abusive father and suicidally depressed (that kind of thing does not come out of nowhere…) mother, with nothing even remotely resembling faith in parents’ infallibility from the moment she first noticed her father and her mother had drastically different opinions on some things. Remember Joyce freaking out about her dad lying to her mom? Becky was probably taught -how- to lie to her dad by her mom. Her bullshit-o-meter probably pinged the moment she first heard the church’s doctrine on wife-husband relationship, and has been constantly beeping ever since. What relationship with God she has managed to build for herself has -nothing- to do with accepting authority… and let’s be honest, there is nothing inherent to believing in God and loving God that remotely leads to ‘this church with different decorations than mine is clearly a satanic trap’.
Like, I don’t even know how to properly enunciate the difference between Becky’s and Joyce’s faith. It’s an unsurmountably huge gulf, night and day. Becky’s faith comes from the inside, and every time she personally is faced with a new thing, she takes it upon herself to personally figure out how it resonates with her personal faith. There is nothing offensive to -her- sensibilities in Jacob’s church, so she’s not offended. What she and Joyce were taught as children is just… irrelevant, it slid off her like water off a goose (Russian idiom, sorry don’t know the equivalent).
To Becky, Joyce freaking out about minor things is utterly hilarious mixed with concern for Joyce’s actual mental well-being, because to Becky those things are MINOR (y’know compared to ‘oh my god my dad is horrible’ as far as world-rocking revelations go). She knew God was okay with lesbians from the moment she figured out she was one, because to her, the opinion of the church on the matter was about as much a factor as shintoic religious beliefs to Joyce. Not her circus, not her monkeys.
So, yeah. The only reason Becky might possibly have to dislike this church is if it treated Joyce badly, and I think Jacob is performing quite admirably on that front.
Surely I can’t be the only one who saw the stained glass and Joyce’s reference to Contemporary Christian Music and have Casting Crown’s “Stained Glass Masquerade” start playing in their head…
I can only recognise that those spiritual problems (whatever the term may mean precisely) are of great importance for many religious people in the US but from the commonplace, secular perspective of a modern day German, I am completely helpless.
I simply do not understand and cannot bridge the cultural difference.
Imagine you’ve been invited to a funeral, and when you come in you are greeted with an orgy of naked people, with body parts of the deceased being served as main course, and with death metal music blaring. You are expected to strip naked, eat the food (otherwise you are disrespecting the person being mourned), and probably have some sex if you feel like it. You know, no pressure, just conform and don’t stand out too badly.
That’s what Joyce is feeling right now, except with the added weight of being absolutely 100% invested in every single aspect of ‘funeral’ (church service in this case) as a fundamental part of her growing-up experience.
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“like, uh, biceps twice as big around as my waist? NO WAIT I MEAN–“
Let’s be realistic. Those biceps are more like, two thirds as big around as her waist.
Yeah, either Jacob would have to have massive, hulking Liefeldian biceps, or Joyce would have to have an eerily thin Liefeldian waist. I guess what I’m saying is, it’s too bad that DoA isn’t drawn by Rob Liefeld.
I disagree. I think it’s too bad Dumbing of Age isn’t a Rob Liefeld/Greg Land collaboration. Just the best of the skills.
Cauchemar please, no, I’ll hurl
They don’t need all those pouches! They have backpacks!
Ahem! You know, Willis is, like, RIGHT HERE. LISTENING.
Please take back that last sentence. I respect a lot of what Leifeld has attempted to do in the comics industry (especially his role in pushing creator ownership), but his visual and narrative aesthetic aren’t among those things and his look would simply fail in this type of comic… it could maybe have worked ok-ish in the more combat focused parts of IW!… maybe…
I’m reasonably certain that was sarcasm, though it is admittedly harder to tell with the written word…
So, whose outfit would have lots of pouches, and which character would regularly be drawn with twice as many teeth in their mouth as an actual human does?
You gotta have a slightly abnormal smile already to pull off a triangle grin, no?
I’ve seen little kids do that IRL, and that’s what Calvin was based on, which is probably where Willis gets it from
I had no idea the theology of John Calvin drew so much inspiration from children’s oh you meant Calvin and Hobbes.
“nasty, brutish and short”
Don’t forget the alien anatomy with potato feet, spines like that of an owl, rib cages the size of a standard whiskey barrel, musculature of a Belgian Blue with extra muscles.
“…with potato feet…”
When they were even visible, that is.
Don’t forget the spine made out of rubber, and no space within the torso for internal organs.
I THINK she’s starting to figure out that it’s not only Sarah who wants Jacob.
THINK.
No conclusive evidence as of yet.
Well, yeah, Ethan’s pretty into him, too.
And Raidah.
Somehow this is the best comment, especially from that gravatar.
Pretty much, yeah.
Roz wanted a “date”, too.
…Jacob is too good and pure for this cast.
And now that you’ve said that David M Willis is probably going to reveal Jacob’s dark past where he, I dunno, stole amiibos from the elderly or something.
That monster! You need an amiibo to summon Epona in BotW!
They NEED a fast horse, they don’t have much longer on this earth, and that game takes forever to finish as it is!
The elderly should be wise enough to know that th Giant Horse is far superior to the Epona Amiibo, and available in the canyon south of the Great Plateau.
*scribbles down note*
Wasn’t he a recovering sex addict in Shortpacked?
Iirc, Willis has said that’s not the case in DoA
Ofc the author reserves the right to change their mind and/or come up with a better idea so extracanonical clarifications are just that
Of course is not the case, you can’t be a sex addict when you are saving yourself for “the one”. (I’m admittedly worried for when he has his first time though.) D:
Is he actually doing that or is he just taking it slow and avoiding casual sex?
I hadn’t gotten the impression he was a virgin.
You can be a porn addict.
Well he said he only became a sex addict in college maybe he has yet to discover he has an addictive personality yet?
or took a penny from the take a penny give a penny just because he didn’t want to break a quarter.
Especially not for just a nickel. With your mom.
Or that Jacob’s sex addiction led to a collection of STDs that would make Mr. Burns cringe.
He’s definitely nice, kind, and compassionate. But he’s still dating someone else and has his arm around Joyce. I’m sure he doesn’t mean it in any untoward way, but I’m also sure he might not be doing it if Raidah was sitting next to him.
Raidah’s not the jealous type. We know this.
Well, that de-escalated quickly. Sarah who?
As a Catholic, i’m interested in how the next few weeks will unfold. Should be fun 😀
Jacob is so damn sweet.
Also, I really like stained glass, so I really hate situations where I have to be in a church and it’s not even the kind with stained glass.
no, joyce! don’t snack on your own supply! remember, you’re just here to be a jacob dealer!
She was doomed the day they talked about Jacob’s feelings. Joyce has officially sampled the supply and is hooked.
I have no idea what Joyce is talking about, nope not at all.
Unrelatedly, let me know if Yotomoe shows up in the comments in today’s strip. For no particular reason.
Asking for a friend?
Yes, his name is Blaul McBlubbery and he lives in the mirrors that live in my mirror
Those stained glass windows look a bit like the kabbalistic tree of life.
Is that the same one as the tree of the Sephiroth? It does look like that.
If I’m remembering right–and forgive me, it’s been a while since I’ve been there–this is just what the stained-glass windows look like at Trinity Episcopal Church in Bloomington. Given that Willis nailed the exterior of the building a couple of days ago, it wouldn’t surprise me that he got the interior right, too. His attention to detail about the particulars of Bloomington is astounding.
It is good, for Willis’ sake, that they didn’t go to a Catholic church. Even my not big, very ordinary, Catholic church of childhood had stained glass windows with figure and storytelling.
And I don’t even know if this.church has the stations of the cross!
Willis, did you actually know someone in college who reacted this way to unfamiliar things? I mean… were you like Joyce?
ME????
LIKE JOYCE????
… that’s not a no.
There’s no way.
So does that mean Willis can do a sustained screech at a pitch that only the late Rich Mullins can hear?
I won’t believe it until I hear it.
Step 1: Turn Wadey into Rich Mullins.
Step 2: Kill. For SCIENCE!
Step 3: Gather Data? Somehow? Eh, we’ll figure this out after step 2.
YOU CAN’T. Only Rich Mullins can.
We’ll hear about that.
SgtWadeyWilson–Is that really you, Rich Mullins?
If Reltzik is truly dedicated to science, maybe soon?
Not anymore he can’t. When he was a freshman, though?
Yeah, clearly your arc is Raidah’s. No way is Joyce you
I often respond to this strip by asking, “do people like this really exist?” I’ve led a sheltered existence, I guess.
Not as sheltered as Joyce!
ffftt yeah, even I’m not as sheltered as Joyce, and that’s saying a lot.
From the “About/Read before posting page”:
“7) This is important: Joyce is autobiographical. Like Joyce, I believed in the complete inerrancy of the Bible — Earth is 6000 years old, Noah’s Ark, gay folks are evil, everything — and our family attended multiple churches of various persuasions, from Methodist to Baptist to Evangelical Free. But not shallowly, no. We spent years climbing up the social hierarchies of those mofos until we uncovered assholes and/or corruption and had to move on. I went to youth group every week, attended every sermon (because there was more than one) every weekend, and went to church summer camp (at Anderson University). My dad was routinely a Deacon. At one point he even tried starting his own church. Consider this information before goin’ off on me about how I don’t know anything about Christians or whatever. And like Joyce, I was raised as a nondenominational fundamentalist (nonaligned Protestant), which means she’s not Catholic. She doesn’t own a crucifix, she doesn’t believe in saints or have pictures of Jesus anywhere, and she thinks the Pope is more likely to be the Anti-Christ than someone she should listen to. I say this only because folks really like to yell at her for all sorts of Catholic stuff she wouldn’t do. Get your kinds of Christians sorted out!”
AAAAAAnd Rebooted via Jacob.exe
She’s…she’s trying! Attempts are being made!
(eeeeeeeeeeee)
aww, Becky. 🙁
The power of hormones compels you.
Yet another comic where the punchline is in the first panel.
Is a joke inherently a punchline now?
I’m saying that the joke in the last panel isn’t as funny as the joke in the first panel.
BECKY IS MAKING A JOKE BY COMPARING CROSSES VS. CRUCIFIXES TO FONT STYLES AND I need to stop hyperventi-laughing and breathe.
Well at least that means she has a type.
As long as they don’t use Hell-vetica.
i feel like there is a wingdings joke about angels to be made
But look at the current Comic: Sans crosses. All Joyce needs to do is align her view with ours, then it’s just what? Robes and colored glass? No problem.
Or Old-Times Roman.
Seriously, that is some top-grade wordplay on her part.
And the next sentence, too. Magnifique double entendre. I know Becky wants to go into science, but I want her in journalism/literature
Heck no. Science needs more people who can write well. Desperately.
Meanwhile I’m just trying to picture what crosses would look like in different fonts. Times New Roman, Garamond Pro, the dreaded Comic Sans, etc.
Times New Roman? Isn’t that the Vatican 2 font?
MS Comic Sans?
What are you thinking?
If anyone could get Joyce into a 2f1m 3some, its Jacob.
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves, maybe wait til she can say the word vagina without euphemisms before we tell her about threesomes.
That moment’s a prime candidate for joyce freak-out panel…what would it be, 4 or 5?
Well she already knows about polyamory, threesomes are the next logical step
A part of me keeps saying that “there’s no way that joyce’s somehow both understated and enormously strict style of church” actually exists, but I’m left with the deep and unsettling feeling that it might be more common than I think.
austere in ornamentation, austere in demeanor. there’s a synergy there. also, someone hit me for using the word “synergy”
Less fancy, maybe, but I don’t know about “understated”. She was also looking forward to dancing and shimmying, if you remember.
That’s kind of my point, since the dancing + peppy music + electric guitar isn’t really churchy to me, if that makes sense? It doesn’t have that serene atmosphere that I associate with churches. *shrugs*
Think less serene, and more “energetic-in-the-worked-up-into-frothing-fervor-and-talking-in-tongues-style”. …. except I don’t think her PARTICULAR church does talking in tongues. But they do still get worked up.
the Protestant church I went to a few times growing up was definitely Very Loud with dancing and singing and peppy music and electric guitars and they had a whooooole fancy sound system with big screens so everyone could see. It was extremely fun! I found it highly ironic that all the equipment cost a fortune, but they refused to be anywhere that looked austere. so the church itself was an old abandoned warehouse-containment thing, looked like a grey box from outside, with folding chairs. This wasn’t even in the US, so I guess it must be prevalent elsewhere. A Methodist church I went to definitely had the whole Fancy Church vibe with plenty of quiet time and hymns. A Baptist one was similar, but felt much preachier.
I think you mean ‘refused to be anywhere that didn’t look austere’. Because setting up folding chairs in an undecorated warehouse is definitely austere.
Could have been looking for the word “ostentatious”.
God bless those who set up the folding chairs!
Passchendaele, as I type this, there are at least 10 comments earlier than yours that as yet have no follow-up comments. The particular commenting section niche you lampshaded yesterday is no longer occupied by you, at least for the moment.
Congratulations or condolences, which ever applies.
*screams in despair, running around and flipping tables*
*remembers the churches of all of my friends growing up* Noooo? *nervous disingenuous smile*
XD
(I wouldn’t know much anyway, because I’ve always been an atheist and haven’t really gone to church. Mom and dad both did (Methodist/Episcopalian, respectively), but they never got much out of it, so I’ve stayed away from churches in general, much less protestant fundamentalist ones. So Joyce’s style of church is probably more eerie to me than it should be. :P)
Oh no, they are eerie even when you are used to them. It takes a lot of creepy bullshit to basically form a death cult that believes ending the world faster is part of God’s plan.
…why does this distantly remind me of the Manson family? o-o
Flips dictionary, looking for dis… disintegrate?
Okay I ship it I really like Jacob and I think him and Joyce could work and radish doesn’t have a lot of=f positive traits
I am officially still not shipping Jacob and Joyce, and yesterday’s strip convinced me more than ever that I was right to not do so. Today? Not so sure.
In the middle of her panic attack, she becomes aware of Jacob’s physical closeness, and even though he isn’t actually touching her, that alone is enough to bring a blush to her cheek and bring her big blue eyes back from pinpricks. And the only thing in her line of sight is the tip of his hand on the other side of her shoulder.
But it’s not just Joyce. Jacob’s facial expression is — it seems to me — a little bit beyond just friendly concern.
You’re right. It’s deep friendly concern.
Right? I’ve been doing a reread and actually raidah was consistently pretty awful?going out of her way to be just hateful to Sarah. Her more recent and bigger scenes haven’t been *quiiite* so unequivocal, so I was more on the fence, but no more.
This Raidah is not evil she’s a misanthrope and hates Sarah for personal reasons but we’ve never seen her display other personality traits or have development of what Jacob actually likes about her contrary to how he and Joyce had a nearly instant connection and their attraction is obvious and the relationship is cute and full of potential
That’s just it, Raidah hasn’t had much character development beyond “Sarah’s archnemesis”.
Sarah’s hands aren’t exactly clean here. She can argue that she called Dana’s father out of concern for her worsening depression, but Raidah isn’t wrong to say Sarah only did that for herself after it started affecting her GPA.
Her interaction with Dina was pretty damning to me.
We know the Raidah-Sarah backstory stuff, but Jacob doesn’t — or at best, he has only heard it from Raidah’s side.
And while we don’t know whether or not Raidah has ever been to Jacob’s church, or he to prayer at Bloomington’s Islamic Center, I’m pretty sure Raidah wouldn’t freak out. (I would not at all surprise me to find out that Jacob has been to prayer at a mosque, to services at a Jewish synagogue, etc. etc.
Raidah wouldn’t freak out. Jacob wouldn’t freak out. Joyce did.
Joyce will get over it. I’ve got faith in her. That in itself isn’t a bar to Jacob and Joyce.
I also wonder if she would have handled it better if she had been better prepared – known what she was getting into and being taken more as “learn about my church and culture” thing. But she wasn’t. She was going to church to worship, like she does every week. Assuming Jacob’s actually reasonably devout, while he may have gone with Raidah it would have been to observe and he still would have gone to church.
Wonder if Joyce will decide this didn’t count and she still needs to go to church today.
No they wouldn’t work. They are in completely different places maturity wise, Jacob would have to spend half his time teaching Joyce and the other half helping Joyce (and her circle) out with all the issues she faces
Jacob shouldn’t have to do any of this when all he really wants is to get on with studying which is what hes getting with Raidah
No I don’t think That’s a problem necessarily Jacob is understanding and there are many other to help as well and Joyce learns quickly and has been shown to put a lot of effort into growing once she learns something. The relationship would be awkward as Joyce works through her hang ups but it could work just like her relationship with Sarah worked out with mutual effort
This is basically why I’m not shipping Joyce/Jacob. Next (in-universe) year? Definitely possible. In her freshman year/his sophomore year? Unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. Raidah and Jacob are at a comparable maturity level and Joyce is just not there yet.
That said: the one thing we don’t get to know reading this comic is actual physical chemistry. If you are standing a little too close to someone and you are tingling from the top of your head to the tip of your toe, that is chemistry. Practicality and religious beliefs and social pressure can override physical chemistry, but the last is still a very powerful force in physical attraction.
Right now, he’s not even touching her, and she’s blushing and he’s got a kind of goofy expression on face? And I’m probably reading too much into this, but I think there’s something going on there.
But there’s never going to be a next year
Yeah exactly, Joyce and Jacob in the future possibly but right now in this year not so much
I wasn’t intending to ship the two of them, but here I am!
I mean frankly we only know Sarah and Joyce’s perspective because that the intentional bias of the strip. I’m not saying Raidah is completely innocent just that it is totally Willis’ style to make us hate her only to turn around, and show her perspective. Definitely seems to be an attraction between Joyce and Jacob though.
*continues playing Clapton songs outside the building*
In which I am the opposite of Joyce.
Stained glass windows, pews and slow ass hymns or gtfo
FWIW, I always found hymns real hard to play on guitar until I realised that using a wah pedal and a tube screamer just cracked open means each chord can be swept in gently and just let the sustain do the rest.
Even better if playing through a Leslie speaker. (see again: Presence of the Lord.)
… helping!
I *really* want to hear this. I have been out of the church for a long time, but I miss that music. Don’t really play electric guitar anymore (sorry, Joyce) but I still have one from my church-going youth, complete with Jesus fish sticker. Fake SG with fake Bigsby vibrato, by Ibanez.
Saaaaaaaame. But the kneeling is bullcrap.
Don’t you mean that the stained glass windows are a pane to draw?
Maybe he could transom student interns to draw it for him. Otherwise he’ll have to draw windows like half a mullion times.
As someone who works at a window/door company, this made my morning.
I am feeling an urge to defenestrate both of you.
(pun-appropriate booing while secretly giggling)
Oh dang someone else got it first.
Jacob is handling this situation very well, BUT, I don’t see him as the kind of man who would put his foot on a church pew like that. Seems… disrespectful.
As a general rule, a church pew is just a piece of furniture. Granted, as with anything one does in a church, everything one does has to be filtered through the “is-this-disrespectful?” lens. But as a rule, if butts can sit on it without being disrespectful, feet can rest on it without being disrespectful.
As a person who once played chamber music in churches as venues (and not as part of a service), one of the first things you learn is to ask what can and cannot moved (or even touched) in the area on and around the altar/sanctuary/chancel. But I’ve never heard of anyone objecting to putting feet on a pew.
Unrequited lovesickness…. that makes me so sad.
Jacob’s not doing too badly at treating Joyce to the unrequited lovesickness. Just not quite on the end that Becky was suggesting.
I’m not sure if this is a GOOD thing…
Oh, I’m pretty sure that Becky knows exactly what she was suggesting.
Honestly I graduated from the fancy kind of hymns ,pews and slow hymmm Baptist churches where you dressed up to the casual churches with folding chairs and electric guitars and Joyce’s attitude is kinda unfamiliar to me.
Granted my mom’s parents are Catholic so I didn’t really see any of the intense anti-Catholic attitudes at home and I never really asked my fellow churchgoers their opinion on Catholics.
How in the world does Mary have 23 votes in the favorite character poll?
Some folks are just contrary. (That’s how their gardens grow.)
At least one commenter has said that Mary is a character they love to hate.
Beatrice has been growing on me rapidly, but even if I vote over again, I could never not vote for Dina, and I’m not yet ready to take a vote away from Jacob or Becky.
I know I did 😛
I only saw ‘vote for your favourite’ and not the ‘pick three’ option, so I only voted for Sal and Marcie and Carla got robbed of a vote.
How is Joyce higher than Carla when Carla is perfect and she is a bug?
Also Carla/Joyce DomSub crackship 4ever
I prefer d/s ships where the dom is normally the meeker personality, because oh my god why do I have an opinion on this
yes
Some folk love their mustachio-twirling villains!
It doesn’t necessarily mean they agree with her views as much as they might like the character growth other characters develop from being in her blighted presence.
I think Mary makes a good foil/antagonist to a lot of characters. She’s not in my top three, but I see why people like her. I don’t understand how people like Malaya. I think people just find her attractive.
Soupcon of Unrequited Lovesickness is a great name for a band.
They’re Sgt. Pepper’s opening act.
Would make a nice album title, too
Becky continues to be rad
She sure is
Made me look up soupçon. Fench is par of my ehnic makeup but I don’t parly-voo.
Ok I’m starting to ship Jacob and Joyce now.
Me toooooo
The S. S. J. J.?
Nono, the S.S. J.J. is the Joe/Joyce ship! Find a different name.
Might I suggest ‘Joy-cob’.
Jacob’s a great guy.
Joyce: … He… sure smells great…
*blinks, turns beet red*
Is what someone like my roommate would say k gotta go bye
And the ship has been patched.
Sarah brought this on her own head.
I think Sarah may expect something this. She wants to take away from Raidah more than she wants Jacob for herself.
Agreed. Though she might be slightly jealous, it’s possible she can see right thru Joyce’s intentions to Joyce’s feelings underneath.
It’s funny, the placement of the stain glass windows almost make it look like there are little hearts floating around Becky’s head when she mentions lovesickness and Joyce’s when she notices Jacob’s proximity.
Coincidence? Who knows!
I have nothing good to say about Hillsong. Their organisation is cultish.
Oops, didn’t alter the email on this computer
Funny how the expression of the avatar changes the comment’s tone of voice, huh? Malaya’s disgust-face actually seems appropriate in this case.
(also, hi mum, it’s S)
also I don’t know who this guy in my avatar is but he makes whatever I say seem skeevy
It’s the dude Mike banged. *Trawls Mike’s tag* Eric. Eric Schtuppenstein.
Now you cannot unsee…
I think that’s the point, the cult of Hillsong pretending to convert people to Xtianity.
Don’t know a lot about Hillsong, but aren’t a lot of Young Hollywood into it currently?
Praise the Lord and Pass the Biceps
Stain glass windows were the only thing I ever liked about going to church, they were pretty.
Hashtag like! Man Jacob is a gorgeous man person. And dang, everything about how he’s dealing with this situation says the ship sails!
Poor Becky tho. She’s feeling this.
I’m enjoying Jacob consulting Becky about Joyce. It’s cute.
“Dr. Becky, have you seen this before? What is your diagnosis?”
Will she recommend CPR? ^_^
Yup. I love how Joyce’s friends are getting used to her rebooting. Asking a consultant is not a bad idea.
Also, it’s of course the perfectly gentlemanny thing to do, to consult her friend when Joyce herself is to overwhelmed.
It is and it’s a sign of how natural he is at thinking of how to support folks. Like, asking a trusted friend what to do instead of assuming you know what to do is something that takes a lot of humility and very much more likely to get a good result.
I’m an atheist, but if I did go to church for some reason I’d probably prefer Jacob’s type of church to Joyce’s. I like older church architecture and stained glass windows, and I’d rather listen to boring hymns than Christian rock music.
Also, less thoughtless homophobia and misogyny and more ability to actually QUESTION those things and (slowly) evolve out of them.
You know, having grown up in New Mexico with a Catholic dad, I think I had a similar (though much lower intensity) reaction to Joyce the first time I walked into a church like Joyce’s in college.
joyce does seem to have a type.
Tall, attractive and well-built isn’t that much of a type I’m thinking
Don’t forget religiously incompatible!
Well, she lucked out on that.
Sans serif.
Not italics
In my old church the stained glass windows were sort of abstract but seemed to also sort of show things relating to Christianity, like crosses and crap, so I would sit there driving myself crazy the whole sermon just staring at those windows, trying to determine if they were showing a cross and a person on purpose, or if I was just making up the shapes.
That look on Jacob’s fsce. Like he knows he is making a move and it is working.
Maybe Jacob isn’t as good a guy everyone thinks he is.
Well Jacob has has been portrayed as basically perfect so far so it’d be nice to see something, anything that makes him human but I don’t think thats his intention here
Having been in a similar situation as Jacob’s (young woman of my acquaintance being upset next to me in a pew in church and me putting an arm around her to comfort her) I would guess the expression could also mean: “Oops, I’m enjoying having my arm around this person a bit too much”.
Don’t forget the hugs, Jacob. I’m sure the hugs will work.
Sorry, Willis, I know you don’t like producing stained glass windows, but I’m afraid you’ll just have to solder on.
Doki doki
Cerberus totally nailed Becky’s attitude. She’s aware that Joyce is freaking out and goes into support mode, including a lighthearted “Wacky Becky” routine to keep things silly.
She herself is chill as a bean. Good is cool, and can hang out in any church he likes.
Jacob is a perfect gentleman.
Oh god it’s happening, I’m going against my own moral code and shipping this…What have I become !?
Embrace it. Join us. Bask in the imagined harmony.
https://youtu.be/Pw2sex1mJNI
Shippers, lets sing our anthem.
This is a really, really well done AMV. It would be nice if they actually linked to the Not Literally video, but NL were properly credited in both the comments and the video, so no complaints.
One Internet Cookie to whomever knows where this quote came from:
“I always suspected Jesus had ties to organized crime”
Fallout 2! 😀
Love that game.
ONE internet cookie to- *SPITTAKE*
Uhh…. You know your handle is really similar to an adult artist called PersonalAmi?
…I did not! Huh!
…That does feel a little wierd.
As far as I can tell, my use of the handle predates the artist. The earliest I could find of them using it (admitedly not after a particularly thorough search) was 2012, and I started using this handle back in 2010, when I tried out LoL and decided it was time for a new handle.
But yeah. That still feels kinda wierd. Thanks for pointing it out.
That’s FallOut 2, yeah?
Agh my browser did that stupid thing where instead of refreshing the page it just showed you the outdated version again. I did not mean to attempt a second claim on the above’s cookie award!
It’s okay, I don’t mind sharing my cookies. I split it, you pick first?
No Need! Here’s another Internet Cookie For Masaki
The internet is truly a wonderful place.
Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrvVVreWE6w
ALSO a prize to whomever knows what game does the quote “MOO, I say!” comes from.
Ok yeah so my au-dar has been going crazy around Joyce for a long time but I think it’s time for this autistic person (me) to announce that Joyce is undoubtedly autistic and amazing and lovely. Like, her social interactions? Her wearing the same kind of clothes forever (and wanting to keep her bloodstained sweater because no she won’t say goodbye to a sweater she liked)? Her sending false-positives she’s not aware of? Her food pickiness? Her aversion to new things and changes?
Yep she’s autistic.
DW thoughts?
Actually…. I could see that
She’s an exaggeration.
I literally said this to my (also Autie) GF as I read this post… and then got excited about Willis’s Tweet so there’s that.
+1 autistic person: Ever since her and Dina’s confrontation over dinosaur feathers, I’ve enjoyed comparing / contrasting them.
Hmmm, maybe? I still think a lot of it is her extremely sheltered background, being told that Catholic Churches were tools of Satan and people who went to them were hellbound, and seeing a lot of “Cathy-y” things in the Episcopal Church. And some of her other freak outs were over religion-related things, which have been drummed into her from an early age. She might have an extremely overactive imagination.
You could say Becky doesn’t act that way, but all neurotypical people aren’t the same.
As far as not liking change or different things, many neurotypical people don’t like things to be different, which is why some of them have trouble accepting autistic people when they react differently to what the neurotypical person expects.
On the other hand, Joyce’s extreme pickiness about food could point to sensory issues, so that would be a point in favor of her being autistic.
Her social awkwardness could be autism or it could be from being homeschooled and not seeing a wide variety of people. Or. Oth!
Oops, I meant “or both”.
Becky has also been dealing with things that contradict her childhood experiences and faith longer than Joyce, starting with being a lesbian.
I d’know. If she is on the autism spectrum, she’s gotta be pretty mild. I don’t think I’ve ever met in autistic person who communicated their thoughts as well as she does without boatloads of practice that I’m not sure she has. (I went through that myself, btw, I case anyone wants to tell me I’m just biased against autistic people)
That said you basically described me, and I did eventually figure out how to communicate normally, so you might not be far off.
When I was doing my research I came across the thing the name of which I can’t remember right now but basically the ability to express yourself -too- well. Like the ‘did your mom write this for you?’ well (quote taken from experience from my 5th grade. I WAS SO PROUD it helped that the teacher believed me when I said no I wrote this myself)
anyway the point is, as far as I know it kind of goes both ways with autistic people…
I am intensely envious of Joyce’s social personality and complete lack of social anxiety tho. Maybe this is one huge benefit she got out of being homeschooled…
I think so!
I am not a native speaker, what does “dash a’ hugs” mean?
“dash of hugs”: a dash is a kind of measurement you might find in a casual-style cookbook, like just spilling a small amount of (oil on a frying pan, say).
“add just a dash of oil to the frying pan”
so she’s saying, “some hugs” in her own beautiful Becky way.
It’s an imprecise measurement, usually in reference to a cooking recipe. Like ‘a dash of pepper’. In this case, the recipe for a working Joyce includes a dash of hugs, probably more or less to taste.
As we see, Jacob doesn’t even need a whole hug to restore working Joyce.
A dash is a cooking measurement for a small amount, like maybe you do a quick shake from the container. So Becky is giving the prescription as a recipe. I hope that helps.
So wait, I am confused. Why is it so empty? Is service already over or did they come with plenty of time to spare?
Depends, but a lot of Episcopalian families don’t head to church every Sunday anymore, if my family is anything to judge by. Kids might be in Sunday School, or getting ready to put on a play, too.
Optimally, the church is sized for the maximum number of attendees — Easter Sunday and Christmas Eve generally being the most attended services. On an ordinary Sunday in early-to-mid October, there’s probably plenty of room in back. (Churches are the one space where people willingly congregate toward the front.)
In the Netherlands, that rather depends on your church. I have seen quite a few churches where the front pews are empty. And in some Roman Catholic churches I’ve attended, pews fill up from the center aisle outwards, probably because the priest walks down the aisle when wishing his parishioners the peace, and that’s somehow more valuable than wishing the peace to other members of the parish.
A good church is designed to hold the maximum number of people that might attend a service. That number of people will not always show up every week, but the capacity is there, for when it’s needed.
Iirc jacob was pretty chill with his invitation, and Sarah and Billie were the ones doing the pressuring, but it’s nice of him to apologize.
Well damn. Well done Jacob. That was a pretty smooth way of handling that.
Wow, Jacob is a nice guy. He takes responsibility (though he hasn’t any), asks Becky how she deals with this kind of think, knowing she’s usually the one to help Joyce out.
And I love Becky straightforward answer (should i laugh or should I cry?).
Comic Reactions:
Panel 1: Joyce is really not okay with change. And that’s valid. Some people need a certain routine to function and for Joyce she has the added wait of being told all her life that certain actions or certain thoughts will instantly damn her forever in a lack of fire, which tends to add extra wait to those patterns.
And that’s going to be especially true with something like church. Like, she’s falling out of faith, feeling disconnected from her old church, but that doesn’t mean she’s in a headspace where she can handle a church that is radically different than what she associates with church.
And it makes me suspect that Joyce’s arc is going to end up atheist, because she’s having a lot more trouble with those shifting changes than Becky is and I think she’s going to find it easier to abandon faith wholesale than to switch to a different type of church-going Christian, especially since her home faith believes any change like this to be the equivalent of going atheist anyways.
Also, so many cheers for Becky and Jacob throughout this whole strip and it really starts here. Jacob recognizing and centering the hyperventilating and recognizing that as a problem rather than mocking her for it (Walky for his many positive traits, would definitely poke fun at a time like this).
And Becky. I fucking love Becky. The concern on her face, knowing this is serious and trying to support but worrying about being too affectionately supportive in a place of worship given her history of experiences with these places and likely a lot of moments in quiet hope in the pews growing up.
And that joke. It’s just liquid ambrosia and I am so here for it.
Panels 2-3: Jacob is really good at crisis management and emotional de-escalation and if he doesn’t make it as a lawyer, he’d make an excellent therapist or social worker. Like he’s a master of that helpful but supportive style and that calm laying out of what he can and cannot deliver. Plus, the dropping to her eye level. It’s a lot of advanced techniques for a college sophomore/freshman.
And Becky’s comments here are fierce. It’s real statements of what helps, while she keeps a close eye on the situation, while also revealing some of the pain lingering underneath. She loves more than anything to support Joyce. It’s a key part of how she views their friendship. But her crush is not completed vanished yet and there’s a part of this that still hurts her.
And yet she tries to do right by Joyce anyways, because she views it as right and important and it shows just how important things like friendship are to her and how grateful she has been to have Joyce in her life helping her in her darkest time.
I really don’t see Joyce ever going atheist. Faith in higher powers is too central a part of her. But I think she’ll gradually be more open to celebrating God in new ways, new interpretations. One day we’ll see her at a Jewish wedding.
There are many lawyers who make a living in collaborative law. Jacob would be a natural at it.
But this is one of Joyce’s central conflicts. YES, Faith is very much a central part of her.
But even more central to her is her love of people, especially her friends.
The two keep being forced into conflict — her parents’ hatred of Dorothy, her religion’s condemnation and suppression of Becky (and Ethan), the marginalization she received from her home church after the Toedad incident. Each time she (perhaps with some hesitation) puts aside faith in religion and keeps faith with her friends, and each time her faith in her religion crumbles a bit more. Every time she has faith in her religion it fails her, while her love for her friends comes back to reward her. And she has shown repeatedly that she has too much integrity and too much attention to the details to simply gloss over the problems with her faith and pretend there’s no conflict at all.
I’ve listened to a lot of deconversion stories, and roughly half of them follow this path: loving people the church tells them to hate, and becoming alienated from the church as a result. A very common next step is to start questioning how everything holds together, and we’re already seeing hints of Joyce doing that as well, yet all the while clinging tighter to their faith, with a growing desperation, until it finally crumbles despite their best efforts. Joyce is showing signs of that desperation in a way that strongly contrasts with Becky.
YES, there are other denominations she could join that won’t force her religious faith into conflict with her love for her friends. But as Cerb notes, Joyce isn’t exactly taking well to other denominations. So what does that leave?
This is how a tightly-held faith dies.
Joyce has never been exposed to other denominations in any sort of depth. I really don’t see how her being uncomfortable with new things has anything to do with her becoming atheist, so long as she surrounds herself with friends who pull her into new experiences.
Joyce has a love of people and community, and she will easily find that in churches. Her preconceptions have had to fall, but they were always peripheral to her central faith in God, which has remained strong through some serious trauma. Even through her worst times, Joyce has always been angry at people and the world, never at God or her religious upbringing.
I myself choose to believe in God, but place far more priority on logic and rationality and far less on community and celebration than Joyce. There isn’t enough proper evidence to prove God exists. I haven’t gone to church in years, though I’m glad Pope Francis is in charge now. From this particular perspective of mine, I see Joyce finding her own religious community eventually. Almost zero chance of atheism. Possible Unitarian if pushed in just the right way hard enough.
Willis went atheist. It’s very likely Joyce will follow that arc.
We’ve also seen the contrast in Joyce and Becky over religion. Becky’s easily able to modify her beliefs to take on new things – “God answers lesbian prayers” and science, etc.
Joyce’s are all wrapped up too tightly together. If one thing is wrong, then everything is a goddamned lie.
Joyce does not just hold on tight to her love of God, she also holds on tight to her denial of biology and geology, and to her these things are too tightly interwoven to be torn apart. She’s already told Becky once a line of logic that I don’t completely remember but that ended up with “if the things I have learned growing up aren’t literally true, that means God hurt people on purpose”. Joyce cannot reconcile that the way Becky has, cannot say “God is good, he is just not like what I was taught”. To her, what she was taught is all there is to God, so if she rejects her parents’ faith, she rejects God. What faith is to Joyce is fundamentally incompatible with the new truths she’s discovering, and while there is a slight chance of her finding a new one, I wouldn’t put much stock in it.
(Becky probably has been reconciling disrepancies in what she was taught and what she experienced since early childhood, and has based her faith on things that are not in any way connected to relying on other churchgoers’ opinions and interpretations, because she -never- could rely on them. To Joyce, faith IS relying on other churchgoers’ opinions and interpretations, and there’s nothing to the idea of God that’s not tied to that)
I don’t see her going atheist but I could definitely see her quitting church and probably going on a non organized personal relationship with god and her beliefs sort of route.
Since she grew up in a non-structured church where basically anyone can be an entrepreneur and start their own church, moving to a church of one isn’t a big step.
I get what you’re saying, and don’t disagree. I also agree with Trolldrool about it being autobiographical, but wasn’t 100% sure where Willis was religiously now so didn’t bring it up.
Just to explain, as someone raised non-religiously, I’m basing assumptions off part of my family, who are super churchgoing religious (founded in dutch reform but now very strict nondenominational protestant, probably because they had no dutch reformist church to attend). We had to hide it from them that we didn’t go to church when I was younger (my parents may still do this), so the idea of anyone I perceive as ‘like them’ quitting church feels extreme.
Considering Joyce is something of an auto biographical character for Willis, I wouldn’t be surprised if she ends up becoming an atheist eventually. Whether it’s something that happens before or after the comic is finished is a different matter. I think Becky is much more likely to keep her faith in the end.
A gay Jewish wedding. Joyce would absolutely show up for Ethan, because that’s the kind of friend she is.
Becky is friggin’ awesome!
I had to look up Becky’s joke in the first panel. I found something on Wikipedia called “Sans-Serif”. I may be a bit slow here, but is Becky saying Joyce finds the church too ornate?
Not so much that it’s too ornate, but that ornamentation is ‘wrong’. All of this nonsense is supposed to only be done by those anti-Christian Papists.
Perhaps that as san serif font has no serifs, a ‘proper’ cross should have no figure of Christ.
Does Joyce’s church believe in angels, or are they also sans-seraph?
Jacob asks what Joyce wants and it’s so damn careful and gentle and perfect… Willis, you keep giving us lovely stuff, thank you.
Becky’s bit about unrequited lovesickness… she just Beckys that in with her direct complete honesty (is it how she’s handled it in the past or is it a current issue?), hands it over to Jacob as something he’s able to handle, and Jacob just rolls with it. So damn good.
Agreed on all counts.
Somebody hand Joyce a copy of Frankie Schaeffer’s Crazy For God, in which the famous son of the famous scholar and filmmaker goes through his crisis of faith and doesn’t become atheist… but doesn’t remain an evangelical either. Wonderful book.
Well, it’s time Joyce learned that there’s more than one way to worship and there’s more to Christianity than her denomination. I personally like church architecture with stained glass though. Churches here I’ve seen with it are Catholic, Anglican and United (United Church of Canada) and between that and the nice woodwork and things like pipe organs and proper choirs I like. That’s about all I like these days though in regards to church. The Pentecostals kind of ruined it for me. I wish mom hadn’t moved us from the United to the Pentecostal church…perhaps my dislike for religion wouldn’t be so bad as it is now.
She’s in the US equivalent of an Anglican church, the Episcopalian church. The Anglican church itself is very similar to Catholicism, differing in… female and homosexual clergy (in some regions), clergy being allowed to marry, and something about the flesh of Christ. Instead of looking up to the pope, regions technically look up to the Archbishop of Canterbury and through him the Crown, but honestly they’re largely autonomous (with the Episcopal Church being largely more liberal than its peers, the one religious area America actually LEADS in!). Anyways, the Episcopal church is basically Catholicism Lite (Liberal Edition), while the Anglican Church is just Catholicism Lite.
Panel 4: I feel like Jacob is the perfect counterpoint to the whole cult of toxic masculinity. Like, so many men are sold this idea that to be a “man” one must reject all femininity and flee from things like empathy, seeing women as people, or not projecting strength at all times lest you be considered a woman.
And it destroys the people who buy in the most. But for so many, it’s hard to see another model of masculinity that doesn’t fit into that toxic mold. But here we see that masculinity bright as day. Jacob is tough, yes, well-built yes, but that is not for the purpose of winning any pissing contest.
He is not afraid to show empathy, to do right by others, even if it means apologizing or showing vulnerability. He works hard to do right by others around him and engage them as equals deserving respect.
And it’s beautiful to see that and to have it illustrated so clear that for all the blathering about how toxic masculinity is the only way to win girls, this is the masculinity that people are far more attracted to. Like, Jacob’s kindness and care mixed with his attractive body makes him the sort of person many who are attracted to men jump at (much like Chris Evans).
And it makes him a better person too.
Panel 5: Oh dear Joyce… you have it bad and are going down a dark and dangerous road…
…. okay, you’ve convinced me. Jason’s already been kicked off my acceptable-Grav roster, and now Jacob’s in.
…. of course, any of those three would be an improvement over tonight.
What I really like about this strip is Jacob’s smile in panel 5. As I suspected, he knows that Joyce is crushing on him and he’s not in any way threatened, offended or worried about it. Instead, I think that he’s ready to tackle it head-on and let her down gently.
Or he’s just relieved her eyes are back to normal.
Like really what’s the point of religion without the beautiful architecture and the formal ceremony and the fancy robes? Takes all the fun out of it lol
It depends why you go into it. That said, yeah, a lot of people are only interested in the floor show.
Hahaha, man. Where I grew up, Christian culture and style was highly influenced by Anabaptists (Amish, Mennonite, non-southern Baptists, Quakers, Shakers, and Puritan-influenced non-denominational-but-vaguely-Lutheran-esque churches).
I currently attend an Episcopalian church, which I love and find the service lovely, and I’ve found good things in other churches’ services. But a small part of me has absorbed, deep down, that simplicity and plain-ness are vital to proper holiness. It’s obviously ridiculous because beauty and joy are *also* holy things, but I still have that gut reaction sometimes of, “Is that gold in the stained glass? That could’ve fed ten people!” Although clearly my hangup is different than Joyce’s because electric guitars were definitely also “unholy”.
On the other hand, for a lot of history and even in some places today, church patronage was the only reason certain sorts of art were ever not Just For Rich People. Yeah they could’ve fed ten people, once, back when the church first got built, but over the years since hundreds of people have gotten time in environment they just wouldn’t get to experience in their regular life without that “wasted” money.
^^^ in this whole discussion, this is the comment I’ve felt the most right about. I was raised Orthodox… the kind that has never been to a single church service but has visited many over the country in a tourist-y way and has been taught how to behave properly and be respectful in them… so really most of this discussion comes from an utterly alien place to me. But “poor people can have nice things” has a very right ring to it, as something that’s the church’s job. Alongside teaching people to read and write (historically, people have been largely literate in Ukraine’s territory long before it became common for -nobles- to be literate in Western Europe), just simply -having- art and beautiful architecture in it are huuge points in favor of churches.
The point is being Right with a capital “R” and being sure of it by means of a direct connection to god, which is signified by a bubbly feeling that’s incredibly easy to induce using willpower and a small handful of simple techniques. Once your church zeroes in on that, nothing else matters, and the classical ways start to look a lot like needless distractions which just might have been all along designed to get in the way by our old pal Satan. Y’know, because annoying god is apparently his one and only job, and “look what I told them you’re into” is as good a technique as any.
I know, right? The stained glass windows were always my favorite part. Especially going to another church and seeing *their* windows and how they were different.
I wuv all kinds of architecture and glass art and church history there is especially appealing, but my converted-commercial-building church has donuts and chocolate biscuits and (this Sunday only) cake and ice cream, and I know where I’m gonna be.
I adore Jacob but I honestly think he’s too mature for Joyce. I’m not saying Joyce herself is immature (we saw unsuspected maturity from her in the last Do List arc) but so far she seems like a cute child around Jacob every time, which he addresses kindly but… I’m not into shipping couples where the partners don’t seem to be on the same level.
I’ve felt from early on that his most likely ultimate relationship with Joyce would be ‘protective and nurturing older brother’.
Gah, onii-san crushes.
Jacob is just so lovable man.
I’d go straight for Jacob.
But I kind of agree, like I think the ship is cute, but I think Joyce still has a lot of learning and growing to do before she could ever date him. That, of course, would be only if he and Raidah broke up, obviously. Plus, Jakes has had a rough time with jealous exes, and Joyce… isn’t really the super chill notjealous kind of girlfriend, even from the brief interaction of Ethan and Amber.
I got a box full of rocks that can fix your stained glass problem! The rest will be more difficult…
BREATHE Joyce, just nice and slowly. Breathe!
Completely unrelated to todays strip, but in class we’ve been having discussions about the idea of masculinity and the difference between what masculinity was in the era right after WWII and what masculinity is now. I wanted to talk about how certain types of masculinity came into existence and how they led to things like objectification, rape culture and ruined as many lives as possible, but I couldn’t voice a the thoughts rolling around in my head and all that came out was a garbled mess. I’m planning to bring it up again tomorrow but i don’t have any good talking points. Can you guys help?
Not sure it helps, but I’d definitely argue that rape culture and objectification long predate WWII, they were just much less acknowledged back then. They were just the way things were.
If there was less rape (outside of marital rape, which didn’t count at the time), it’s because women were more controlled, more like possessions. When it did happen, it was even more likely to be blamed on the woman than it is today and she was far more likely to be shamed for it and of course, not to report it.
Noted, with thanks
The 50’s era masculinity was defined by being successful, unchallenged (especially in being a heterosexual man), and rather emotionless.
Arguably today’s masculinity is the same, the amount of self-introspection in regards to gender we’ve done since then varies depending on who you ask.
It’s pretty depressing that seventy years on, after showing so much progress in civil rights and becoming more accepting of queer people, our society still reinforces the idea of men unable to show emotion if they want to be a “real” man
And she is already recovering, that’s a girl Joyce!
I’m having a little trouble understanding why Joyce is basically hyperventilating at a new church setting? I know she’s not privy to new things, to the point that they’re terrifying, yes, but my understanding of Christianity is limited when it comes down to the differences between the churches.
Is it just because it’s so radically different than what she’s used to or something more? Her faith has already wavered from her own fellow churchmembers failing her (which I understand full well from my experiences in a Lutheran setting before I refused to return to it) but I’m not sure how to sympathize in this regard? I suppose it’s no different than my confusion over Catholic sermons, with the constant up and down of kneeling, but I always chalked that up to the fact that the church I was raised at didn’t do those things.
TL;DR: Is there something in Joyce’s upbringing that would bring her to a panic attack state regarding the faith, if only because of it being different than her own? Or something deeper that I’m missing here? Thanks!
Joyce went to a non-aligned fundamentalist protestant church. One of the “teachings” of her church is that catholics are somehow bad. (She may have been told that the pope is the antichrist.)
The Episcoplainan church is protestant (i.e. they don’t follow the pope), but it maintains many of the trappings of catholocism. (As Joyce pointed out, priests wear robes/collars, there is stained glass, etc.) It looks close enough to a catholic church that it reminds her of her teachings that “catholic=bad”.
Ah, that explains it then! Thanks very much.
I think there might even have been a line about Dorothy “At least she is not catholic” regarding her atheism so that might give you some idea about how Joyce’s church feels about that.
I’m not certain (not being Catholic myself), but isn’t part of Catholicism that the Bible isn’t THE supreme authority, but just one out of many scriptures that need to be interpreted to find the truth? Unlike Fundamentalist Protestantism where the Bible is the highest authority and infallible.
Unless I’ve gotten that wrong, I imagine that’d be another reason fundies don’t like them.
To be fair there is some point to that. Bible was made of… I think 4 books written or dictated by different Apostles or their students. But there was more of them, I think there is even a Judas apocrypha. So early in it’s history the Christians picked which books to chose for their Bible while forgetting the other existed.
Absolutely. Accounts vary, but something like 35 different people wrote the bible. Possibly four contributors to the Pentateuch. It’s a big anthology, and the ‘development’ of the canonical inclusion is a convoluted path. Wonder if Joyce knows this…
Yep. All those New Testament weren’t even written by people who had met Jesus (the Apostles and Disciples believed the Kingdom of God was to happen during their lifetimes, so they didn’t bother writing down their own accounts) but by disciples of disciples or even disciples or disciples or disciples…
And the Catholic Church selected the books they liked and tried to destroy the rest… I wonder how many fundies know that the Bible they study is basically a Roman Edition, and not something handed down directly from Jesus and his Apostles…
Not the Catholic Church. The Great Schism was way after Nicaea, Catholicism didn’t exist yet.
Actually, the term “Catholic”, meaning “Universal” started to be used at the beginning of the second century.
But anyways, the Council of Nicea happened in 325, and the New Testament wasn’t trimmed down to the current books at least until the Council of Rome, in 382. As a matter of fact, some part of the New Testament, like the Epistle to the Hebrews and the Apocalypse, still were in doubt during the fifth century!
Oh sorry, I misunderstood, you meant that the Catholic Church didn’t exist until the Great Schism?
The Orthodox Church official name is Eastern Catholic Orthodox Church, while what people commonly call Catholic Church is the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church existed before the Great Schism, and both halves still consider themselves the “Catholic Church”.
As a catholic, I think it’s more that we’re taught not to take things in the bible too literal. The first time I heard the word metaphor was during Godsdienst (religious classes) in school.
We were taught pretty early on that stories like Adam and Even, or the Ark of Noah and so on, weren’t necessarily things that happened in real history, but that they were a way ancient people used to explain things they did not yet understand. It’s part of why Catholics in general don’t have a problem with the evolution theory, because we (well in Belgium at least) are taught that the events described at the beginning of Genesis were a story, rather than real life events. And that there’s nothing in the bible that really contradicts the big bang theory.
Biblical literalism is actually a fairly modern thing — most of Church history has theologians clearly interpreting the Bible as an extended metaphor. Interpreting the Bible as literal truth only became common with the advent of (Protestant) vernacular Bibles, which allowed a wide variety of non-theologians to approach the Bible, and come to their own (often wildly naïve) interpretations.
I knew it! The damned Protestants ruined Christianity! /s
An alternate/supplemental explanation I ran across was that biblical literalism was a backlash to rapid scientific advancement around the time of the Industrial Revolution. All of a sudden many things that ware long assumed to be supernatural now had mundane explanations, and certain sects decided to say, “No! Our traditional stories are how things really happened!” (Paraphrasing from possibly-erroneous memory.)
So basically these people retreated to hidey holes of ignorance and started to angrily wave a stick at science while yelling “It ain’t so!”?
how very human. 🙁
When I was taught about the Old Testament, half the subject was more Ancient History rather than religious studies, so we would understand that bronze age nomads weren’t necessarily good role models just because they appear in a holy book. The general attitude was like “look, everybody was like that then, God worked with what He had…”
Of course, that brings into question God’s Omnipotence and Onniscience… if he has manipulated Evolution in order to create humans and human culture, couldn’t he have created a non-asshole version of Humanity?
Talk about ironic that the people who put Jesus on the Cross were also the ones who got to decide what the future Christians would believe in.
Drats, I answered to the wrong posts.
‘a non-asshole version of Humanity’?
Because the assholes have free will…
The main difference is, the Catholic Church believes that, since two contradictory interpretations of the Holy Book can’t be both true, one must be false. Hence people can, in their own, come to wrong interpretations, which is ti be avoided…
So you need an army of scholars and experts to study, analyze and discuss the text, and decide which is the interpretation most likely to be true…
not Catholic, but from a Catholic country myself (our president went to Vatican last week to ask in person for a Pope’s visit next year…). The Church regards nearly as high as the Bible the “good old traditions” and the literary works of some Saints. Also, there used to be that the Pope’s words were regarded as “infalible”. Funnily enough, among the good old traditions were, somehow, the oral teaching of some of the books that were rejected from the Bible, like “The Gospel of Child Jesus”. I found that some stories from the TGoCJ made their way into the religion courses books sanctioned in chatolic schools as far as the third quarter of the XX century in my country. 🙂
Yep, Catholicism founds its doctrine on two principles, Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition. This sets it apart from most Protestant churches which are “sola scriptura” or Bible only. Sacred Scripture is the Bible. Whereas Sacred Tradition is the customs of the Church, this is the one most none-catholic churches miss (excepting Orthodox).
Remember that, to Joyce, this isn’t set dressing she’s stressing out about. These are critical aspects of sacred service and she has been taught that the things she doesn’t like about Jacob’s church are heretical and even blasphemous. This is not a small thing for a personality like hers.
Exactly. It’s easy to make fun of Joyce for her screwed-up religious background, but her theology (such as it is presented), is fairly sound within the parameters of her presumably evangelical faith.
Yes, exactly. She was expecting a house of worship and she’s been led into a den of Satan.
For her it’s like if a regular Catholic was led into a room covered with reverse pentagrams and asked if they ever stabbed and skinned a cat or dog.
Or even just speaking in tongues and handling snakes.
I have to admit that what I’ve seen of the Tele-evangelists and stuff (like pushing people and them falling over) seems kinda silly…
Ack, I meant to reply! Copy/paste:
Fundamental protestants, specifically the kind like Joyce’s family, tend to view Catholic-ish church trappings as “cultish.” . As a general theological view it dates back to Reformation-era iconoclasts, but if you’re raised going to a church with folding chairs and no decorations and an electric guitar, the robes and the stained glass and the statues of people dying horrible deaths will freak you out.
Though of course, if you’re Catholic, you view said trappings as normal/beautiful/part of a really long religious tradition, and it’s the evangelical Protestants with their lack of organized denominations and their speaking in tongues and their tendency to ask if you’ve been Saved who look like a cult. Ah, the beauty of anthropology.
Note how Joyce specifically freaked out on a theological point last strip. She hasn’t just been taught that this is ‘bad’, she has been taught the specific pointed ways in which every single different aspect is satanic, blasphemous and antithetical to the very idea of church. The way she sees it, she just stumbled into a satanic orgy that she’s being told is holy service, and has to somehow go along with it despite everything she has in the way of religious feeling screaming in panic.
operation pimp Joyce out in a church seems to be proceeding on schedule
This has been an interesting arc for me, because I usually resonate with Joyce’s background, having been raised in a conservative protestant environment myself, but – although I did kind of freak out myself on my first exposure to an Episcopal church – the stuff that she’s yearning after doesn’t line up with the church I grew up in much more than with the Episcopalians.
I grew up in a Southern Baptist church in South Georgia with stained glass, pews, hymns, and gospel music. The criticism of Christ being depicted on the cross is familiar, Rich Mullins is familiar (from outside-of-church listening and from the childrens’ choir routinely doing My God Is An Awesome God), but we were nowhere close to folding chairs and electric guitars.
Ah, that’s not to say her kind of church is “unrealistic” though, or anything! I know they exist, and I’ve visited them myself. It’s just a little funny to that young sheltered Christian I still remember being that she’s from the “praise team” vein of churches instead of the good ol’ fashioned choir vein of churches.
It took me like ten minutes to stop laughing my ass off at Becky’s answer in the first panel and proceed with the rest of the joke X’D
Jacob is being really nice about this. Can’t wait until Joyce hears the sermon and we see if she can get past the trappings of the room. She may find out objectionable people are unobjectionable.
And that’s the first reported instance of Joyce getting a girl-boner…
Not the first time, mind you, just the first reported time.
I wonder if Jacob is aware how hard Joyce is crushing on him.
Or if he’s just naive.
Does Joyce have a define denomination? Cause I know most…let’s say older style ones only have traditional service.
we saw them on a previous chapter
Joyce’s family is “nondenominational”, in her own words.
Nondenominational evangelical Protestant, aka “the people most likely to believe Catholics and their ilk are going to Hell for celebrating Jesus wrong”.
Oh My.
What’s a soupcon?
A small amount of something.
Aw, I was hoping it was a convention where everyone cosplayed as their favourite soups.
At which nearly everybody is dressed as a version of chicken noodle.
I’d ask which soup would be the Deadpool cosplay equivalent, but somebody would probably just show up in actual Deadpool cosplay, maybe with an added soup theme.
Here ya go.
Yeah, Joyce. And soon you’ll be seeing Jacob’s point. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Fundamental protestants, specifically the kind like Joyce’s family, tend to view Catholic-ish church trappings as “cultish.” . As a general theological view it dates back to Reformation-era iconoclasts, but if you’re raised going to a church with folding chairs and no decorations and an electric guitar, the robes and the stained glass and the statues of people dying horrible deaths will freak you out.
Though of course, if you’re Catholic, you view said trappings as normal/beautiful/part of a really long religious tradition, and it’s the evangelical Protestants with their lack of organized denominations and their speaking in tongues and their tendency to ask if you’ve been Saved who look like a cult. Ah, the beauty of anthropology.
…Did Becky just crack a typography joke?
Well, the cross being borne by the acolyte (middle panel, two days ago) is pretty fancy at its ends. That does meet “serif” in my book.
That type of cross is called a Cross Bottony, FTR.
Plus, “sans” is another word for “without,” and according to Joyce, a cross should not have Jesus on it. In other words, Joyce likes her crosses sans Jesus.
What about sans seraphim? Does Joyce also get panic attacks when there are too many little angels in the decor?
I don’t really get Becky’s behavior. Shouldn’t she be freaking out too?
Sure, she’s out now but she was still raised just as conservatively as Joyce. I just feel like one personal revelation (even one as big as coming out of the closet) wouldn’t change years of religious conditioning so quickly.
I get the feeling that Becky’s relationship with her faith was always a bit more lax and flexible than Joyce’s. Whereas Joyce is someone who is a creature of habit and prefers a consistent structure to her life, and consequentially her faith, Becky seems to be more the type to go “Eh, God is God, the trappings of worship don’t matter as much as the act of worship itself.” Of course, given her environment, she probably felt it prudent not to actually voice those thoughts.
Not necessarily lax, but she’s definitely more adaptable. Her concept of faith quickly accepted both her being a lesbian and her girlfriend’s teachings on evolution. Becky’s also likely been harboring doubts about her faith much longer, while Joyce’s wasn’t challenged until college.
Joyce struggled with homosexuality, trying to find a loophole to allow it with and still flat out rejects evolution because it would make her whole religion a goddamned lie.
Partly due to personal nature and partly due to personal history, I suspect, we’ve always seen them react differently to such crises. Her upbringing has a much tighter hold on Joyce, but while Becky’s will likely bend and adapt, but remain, Joyce’s will eventually snap and she’ll lose faith entirely.
Becky has known for a long time that she doesn’t really want to be part of that society. Her mother was driven to suicide, her dad is a freak, and all fundies think that she is a sick person at best and an agent of Satan at worst…
Joyce, on the other hand, wanted to be part of it. She was happy. She never noticed the ugly parts until recently.
It’s not ‘one revelation’. Joyce and Becky grew up in drastically different religious environments, from the inside point of view. Joyce grew up in a loving family where she lapped up every word she was told and built her entire worldview on ‘parents are never wrong’ and consequently ‘my parents’ interpretation of Christianity is the only possibly real one’.
Becky grew up with an abusive father and suicidally depressed (that kind of thing does not come out of nowhere…) mother, with nothing even remotely resembling faith in parents’ infallibility from the moment she first noticed her father and her mother had drastically different opinions on some things. Remember Joyce freaking out about her dad lying to her mom? Becky was probably taught -how- to lie to her dad by her mom. Her bullshit-o-meter probably pinged the moment she first heard the church’s doctrine on wife-husband relationship, and has been constantly beeping ever since. What relationship with God she has managed to build for herself has -nothing- to do with accepting authority… and let’s be honest, there is nothing inherent to believing in God and loving God that remotely leads to ‘this church with different decorations than mine is clearly a satanic trap’.
Like, I don’t even know how to properly enunciate the difference between Becky’s and Joyce’s faith. It’s an unsurmountably huge gulf, night and day. Becky’s faith comes from the inside, and every time she personally is faced with a new thing, she takes it upon herself to personally figure out how it resonates with her personal faith. There is nothing offensive to -her- sensibilities in Jacob’s church, so she’s not offended. What she and Joyce were taught as children is just… irrelevant, it slid off her like water off a goose (Russian idiom, sorry don’t know the equivalent).
To Becky, Joyce freaking out about minor things is utterly hilarious mixed with concern for Joyce’s actual mental well-being, because to Becky those things are MINOR (y’know compared to ‘oh my god my dad is horrible’ as far as world-rocking revelations go). She knew God was okay with lesbians from the moment she figured out she was one, because to her, the opinion of the church on the matter was about as much a factor as shintoic religious beliefs to Joyce. Not her circus, not her monkeys.
So, yeah. The only reason Becky might possibly have to dislike this church is if it treated Joyce badly, and I think Jacob is performing quite admirably on that front.
I’m just going to take a moment to appreciate the fact that somebody who isn’t me just made a typography joke.
I can see how stained glass would be a pane.
Surely I can’t be the only one who saw the stained glass and Joyce’s reference to Contemporary Christian Music and have Casting Crown’s “Stained Glass Masquerade” start playing in their head…
I can only recognise that those spiritual problems (whatever the term may mean precisely) are of great importance for many religious people in the US but from the commonplace, secular perspective of a modern day German, I am completely helpless.
I simply do not understand and cannot bridge the cultural difference.
Imagine you’ve been invited to a funeral, and when you come in you are greeted with an orgy of naked people, with body parts of the deceased being served as main course, and with death metal music blaring. You are expected to strip naked, eat the food (otherwise you are disrespecting the person being mourned), and probably have some sex if you feel like it. You know, no pressure, just conform and don’t stand out too badly.
That’s what Joyce is feeling right now, except with the added weight of being absolutely 100% invested in every single aspect of ‘funeral’ (church service in this case) as a fundamental part of her growing-up experience.
Ah yes, the unrequited lovesickness does the job as usual XD
Jacob and Becky are so sweet about this.
So, Joyce is autistic?
Nope, just bad at change in general, especially in regards to religious rituals she’s been told people get damned for practicing.
Wouldn’t stained glass windows be a PANE to draw? 😀