Brigit Greene. Sophomore Bio major, currently living in Forest Quad with the same roommate she had last year, they get along well. Works in the rec center as a kickboxing instructor. Doesn’t like milk in anything, still eats cereal. Rides a sweet mountain bike. Cherishes the memory of meeting one of her heroines, Natalie Coughlin.
Perhaps this is all a cover for her true identity of Jessica Rachel Jennifer FitzThingley? Soon-to-be-revealed secret heir/rival claimant to the Duchy of Thingley?
It basically being Latin, most European languages are pretty close to the English, recognizably so for most of them. And most of the others either use accents/characters outside of the usual English set, or another alphabet entirely, alas.
But Rachel “Rache” Terziario sounds like a legit name, I think?
How painfully aware is Willis that he can no longer draw female characters in the foreground without them immediately becoming cool new characters with intricate backstories and fun quirks?
He will start giving them all exotic [to USA standards] names that will confuse and dismay the readership.
For example a nice Finnish family of Äteritsiputeritsipuolilautatsi.
I wonder if she noticed or if he stopped himself fast enough. She didn’t look like she was reacting or intentionally brushing him off, so I think he just ctrl+Z’d his howdy.
“you don’t look so fine today, so may I’ll ctrl+Z my howdy and crawl back behind my desk to simply wait for you to have metabolized your first caffeinated transfer before attempting to communicate.”
would it work?
I’m sure there’s a pretty girl on campus who just wants a good time with no strings attached.
Probably not with YOU, but… y’know. There might be one with lack of interest in the Internet and not very many friends and who wasn’t able to overhear or told by any one else about you.
There are. Heck, he even had that with Roz before he very likely ruined it.
And that’s one of the massive casualties of spaces where guys like Joe feel safe to harass in. It makes it massively unsafe to let others know that one is a woman who is openly interested in casual stuff and sex, because guys like Joe gravitate towards them and harass them under the mistaken belief that being interested in casual sex means you are not allowed standards or boundaries.
And that’s why PUA bullshit and harassers are so toxic to any type of sex positive culture. Because it massively increases the price of folks being open and honest about their sexual interest because the people getting off on harassing folks are making the space unsafe for that.
And again, that more than almost every thing else (almost) is a testamente to how much Joe blew it. Roz was totally on board with casual sex, no strings, no feels, and advertising their sexing it up – even publishing a sex tape. Everything Joe claimed to want.
And for no reason other than him being a complete douchebag – or more to the point, choosing his ego over supporting her – that’s over. He blew it. Because of his pick up artist bullshit.
Yup, he sacrificed his stated ultimate fantasy all in service to the cult he got trapped serving and his real desire in the moment to be seen as “totally alpha” and a macho man.
I hadn’t thought about it before, but Joe was getting this without even having to meet the “friend” part of that term, with Roz.
Is “fairly close acquaintances with benefits” perhaps a better phrase? As previously stated, I’m not-young, and long-married, and have no kids, so I don’t know if “FWB” is an all-purpose term (explanations welcom).
Whatever it is, if Joe couldn’t appreciate that, it’s his loss.
It is technically correct that Walky spoke at Dorothy first, but his first meaningful interaction with her was when he threw his Monkey Master toy at her. I rather doubt it would have had any chance of working on any woman who wasn’t Dorothy.
Yea. There is no good rule for who should approach who. The best I can come up with is go to places people go for what you are interested in and back out immediately if the person you approach shows a lack of interest. That or get a T shirt or something that clearly labels your openness to invitations for your favorite activity and see if anyone approaches you. I mean in words not just style.
It’s not so much good advice for the category of all men, but definitely for harassers who are used to approaching people who have no interest in talking with them, it’s an important step as the full meaning of women are people gets reinforced and internalized.
For a very specific headspace of douchery, the lesson of shut up, listen, and trust others who are interested to approach you can be an all-important stop-gap to meaningful personal growth.
It’s good advice for any man not to talk to a women from behind her where she can’t see him. Some day some guy might get hit by me who does that, it’s incredibly annoying, intrusive and disrespectful.
If you do that to me at night, your ears might fall off because I will yell at you because it’s fucking scary.
Approach from where she can see you. Either you looked at her, she looked back, you smiled, she smiled, before you start talking, or she already told you to NOT talk to her.
This is actually one of the most depressing parts of working the night shift. Realizing that at 3 AM, fear is pretty much the baseline reaction to me from any woman that does not know me really well. It’s something that’s actually very difficult to empathize with, because I just don’t experience anything similar. I’ve got no problem walking a mile to the 24 hour Subway at 2:30 AM for the exercise. The women who work here wouldn’t dare, and often call me crazy for doing it. But if I have business with a female co worker on a different floor that I dont see often, I have to make sure I make a lot of noise as I approach because otherwise she’s probably going to jump high enough to dislodge ceiling tiles.
I remember, years ago, hearing an interview with a guy who got jumped one evening after he was leaving I think it was a bar (it was like twenty years ago so my memory of precise details is a bit fuzzy). As I recall, he was a musician and someone took exception to something or other or what and waited for him in the alley out back and beat the crap out of him.
What I do remember particularly well was the realization it had caused, and the resulting fear reaction, that (him being kind of a skinny dude) pretty much any guy that passed him on the street could beat the crap out of him and do whatever they liked to him, up to and including murdering him, and he wouldn’t be able to stop them. That the only reason that that random guy there wasn’t just hurting him was because he just wasn’t interested in doing it. Right then. That he was walking amongst them unmolested not because he could in any way deter them, or it was wrong (legally or morally); it was just because, you know, they just didn’t feel like it. And what a terrifyingly thin thread that was to base one’s sense of safety on.
He described how realizing that there was some guy walking behind him in the same direction, or hanging out at the mouth of an alley he was passing, especially in the evening, made him instinctively fear for his safety. How awful it was to live with that constant background fear.
And also how, it having been around six months since he was assaulted, it was wearing off and he was finally being able to walk around feeling like he was in reasonable safety (no evidence to the contrary being presented), even at night, the way he used to, and what a relief it was, because, holy cow, how awful to live like that, eh? Ha ha!
And much to my disgust, no awareness (or at least acknowledgement) from him nor the interviewer that actually, yeah, nice for you to be able to get over it and realize it wasn’t being a rational fear and that you really didn’t need to have a friend along to keep you safe; but that this is actual reality for pretty much every woman, let alone anyone LGBTQ+. That his months of fear was an actual, constant, unending, rational fact of life for at least half the population (and probably more; definitely so when you add in non-white guys and gender-queer guys to all the women); and it was only his privilege of being a straight white guy that allowed him to shrug that fear of assault off as “irrational”.
Eew, I was hoping that anecdote was going somewhere better. It’s sad he didn’t learn much from the experience. :C
Because yeah, as a short and ~pretty~ effeminate queer guy, I feel it all the time. And I mean around everyone, not even just people who look like cis men. It’s distressing some people don’t get that and apparently lack an imagination.
Usually, I still wouldn’t run after someone I know and talk to them from behind. This would have to have a specific reason like having been late and catching up or some such.
It’s different with really good friends whom you can realistically expect to know your voice so well that they can identify it even where you are not expected (so hearing “hey, thejeff” from behind conveys the information that a friend is around and it’s not the nodding acquaintance you just now on purpose passed without looking at them and also not a total stranger trying to hit on you).
If you are in view of people you know, it’s usually considered polite to acknowledge them in some way, nodding, smiling, …
Usually their body language will tell you if they are aware of you being there and if they are open to chat or not.
There’s nothing wrong with approaching a woman. Just, like, don’t open the conversation with a reference to your penis. Don’t be the real life equivalent of those guys that get on OKC and mass message a picture of their penis to the entire female userbase. Even if you’re just looking to hook up, you can spend 5 minutes talking to them like a person until you determine whether or not they’re actually interested in you at all.
hmmm. I guess this week’s just full of jackassery.
Aw well. I wouldn’t think Joe would be so immediately able to take a 180 on his attitude anyway. the fact that he’s being a jackass to himself because he doesn’t believe he can change isn’t all that bad, considering. I believe you can become a decent person joe! just keep at it.
it’s kind of interesting that he’s actually trying a little though, you gotta admit, even if he himself is not optimistic about it. Idk, it seems better to acknowledge that you’re gonna fuck up eventually rather than deny it could ever happen, that awareness could be what stops you *shrugs*
Depending on how many women are on campus, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility there might even been a few women who don’t see anything with what Joe did and think men are supposed to act like that.
The only people with widespread notoreity on my campus had been arrested and were in the news, even then I couldn’t tell you their names. In general, most people don’t know most other people by name or sight.
I think it’s more likely he would chat someone up and then they’d find out he was “the do-list guy” and call it off at that point.
From the demographic report, in 2017, there were 3,916 female students enrolled in the first-year class at the Bloomington campus (4,085 male students). So depending on the retention rate, there are maybe 13,000-16,000 undergrad women there, never mind the graduate students.
Even if he was on a viral sex tape, it’s a distinct possibility that some of those thousands of women have no idea who he is. Then again, as an Old, I cannot even ballpark how quickly or how widely things spread on teh social medias nowadays.
One interpretation could be that he only promised to treat other human beings like the majority of human beings treat other human beings, as opposed to Joyce’s very narrow (if gradually re-evaluating) idea of how human being SHOULD treat each other.
One could further argue that Joe is a human being, so how he treats others is by definition a way in which human beings are treated.
Either interpretation gives Joe a lot more flexibility.
…and now I’m just going to take my inner lawyer out back and shoot him.
Sarah: “I give you about a week.”
Joe: “Yup, that’s about what I figure.”
Sarah: “Wait, you know this?”
Joe: “If I’m having this much trouble on day 2, I’m smart enough to realize that I’m not going to last, and I’m honest enough to admit it. The habits are too deeply ingrained for me to just stop whenever I want.”
Sarah: “Exactly. You might want to stop, on some level, but you can’t stop who YOU are. You might want to redeem yourself, but that doesn’t make you redeemable.”
Joe: “Can’t be fixed. Or fought.”
Sarah: “It’s just a pointless struggle against-”
Joyce: “HEY! I thought we’d agreed to make things BETTER? Let’s MAKE THINGS BETTER!” *storms off*
Joe: “….”
Sarah: “….”
Joe: “Is she talking about you or me?”
Sarah: “I think me? Or maybe both of us?”
Joe: “Really? So, which if us were YOU talking about a moment ago?”
Sarah: “….”
Joe: “…”
Sarah: “… how about we press reset on the past forty seconds of this conversation and start over somewhere we won’t be interrupted by random rays of sunshine?”
Joe: “Sounds good. I know a coffee shop.”
Psssht, imagine if he did complete that question, and she was wearing some kind of tiny wireless headphones or something, so that she couldn’t hear him. It’d be a nice reminder of his situation in any case (in that he would think she was giving him the silent treatment for his do list) while being extremely ironic. :p
Question? Statement? I dunno, I’m tired and busy and my memory’s a sieve. Anywho, time for some desperate last minute reading for AP English Lit. *sighs despondently*
Panel 1: I love that this is where we start because it’s such a beautiful counterpart to Joe’s immediate way of internalizing all he’s learned.
Like, he’s about to block himself sexually harassing someone and his first instinct will be to beat himself up about how every woman hates him (this was a huge theme of his self-flagellation as he suffered the most minimal of consequences for intensely disrespectful and invasive actions.
And yet we have the visuals. Him, already smugly satisfied with the smug creepy come-on he wants to say and her, completely unaware of his existence.
Like, she’s not giving him any attention whatsoever, merely walking about on her day, doing her own thing, not showing any sign of being upset with or wanting to actively talk with Joe, not showing any sign of being interested in starting a conversation with him.
And that really illustrates one of the most fucked up aspects of what Joe, hopefully accurate to the past tense here, used to do, deliberately ignoring body language on who to approach simply because his own self-satisfaction at making a gross point about someone’s body and asking for their attention was something he viewed as more important.
And the thing is, that’s a worldview that a lot of guys get encouraged to view the world through. That the standard rules of social dynamics should go out the window when it comes to women you find attractive. That one’s own boner-needs should trump the comfort of others. And the idea that harassing is the only method of interacting with women.
And not only is it complete bullshit, it creates a lot of cover for serial harassers which is why we’re existing in a world where a huge amount of communities are finding serial harassers in positions of relative popularity and power.
Panel 2: But he stopped. Voluntarily. He didn’t follow through on the pattern he found it so easily to slip into. He considered the full contexts that Joyce revealed to him. He stopped.
And it feels triumphant, like this might be a huge major moment in the redemption arc of Joe, that will begin to cure him of his… less savory ideas of consent and treatment of women.
Like this is huge for him. And we see it in so much of his body language and also this self-abusing metaphor he’s constructed for himself facing the minimum of consequences.
He’s tied almost every facet of his self-esteem into a twisted toxic myth of masculinity and was using that as a very strong mask to avoid feeling doubt and vulnerability and insecurity about his actions.
And that’s a very common thing. A lot of guys are encouraged to adopt personas that hurt others to avoid the “emasculation” of showing weakness and vulnerability and allowing women the right to hurt them or have relative power. And it’s a tragedy, not only because of how it hurts and stunts the men, but by the ways in which others can get intensely hurt by the stunts folks trapped in spaces like that end up doing to avoid that vulnerability.
And it’s somewhat poetic that this story he’s constructed surrounding the very minimal consequences of women being aware of what he did are reminding him of how ineffective and harmful this attempt at hiding from vulnerability really was.
And it’s enough here to get him to think beyond himself and that which would amuse him in the moment and letting the woman he was about to harass go about her day as she would have normally.
That whole “never-show-weakness-“thing is one of the core tenets of toxic masculinity, and that’s why I’m so happy for Joe’s stunt with the doughnuts. Stupid as it was – it was him admitting guilt and acting on that admittance.
And the supernova of Joyce’s big blue eyes did the rest of the job.
To see your faults and be able to check yourself BEFORE you rope other people in on it, that’s a very important step.
Hey Spencer, are you reading the comments today? If you are, I suggest you check out this tumblr post on being an abuser, especially from the perspective of people are have been or are victims
With as much desire as you have to be different, I am sure it is possible. It may be difficult, with going two steps forward and falling one step back, but it is possible.
If I have to put effort into not being an abusive piece of shit that just means my default state of being is to be a worthless sack of dogshit you dont understand I’ve tried so much to change and nothing has and I don’t know what to do anymore I can’t live like this constantly hating myself
You’re not worthless, or a piece of shit. Even if you sometimes have impulses to do shitty things. Even if you constantly have them. Even if you fuck up and act on those impulses. You’re still not a monster.
I wish I had more specific advice, but please don’t let that voice that’s telling you that you’re worthless win. That voice can go fuck itself. You ARE a good person despite your flaws and your fuckups (real or imagined), and the world is better with you in it.
*hugs* what do to? Keep talking about it. Keep trying pointless-sounding shit until something works. And start the long process of learning to not hate yourself, because yes, it’s very hard to live like that. I’ve been there. But the other day, I found out at least a part of me *likes* me, really likes me, and that was so wonderful. 🙂
Also, download the game Best Fiends, because it rewards you for effort as well as winning, enough that I kept bashing my head against levels I really believed were unwinnable, until I won them, and after nearly 400 of those I’m starting to feel less stressed out by impossible-seeming tasks in the real world too. 🙂
Actually, pretty much everyone has to put effort into it. If being abusive wasn’t the easier option, there wouldn’t be so many people doing it. It comes easier to some, harder to others (those who have experienced it themselves, for example, and have had it normalized somewhere in their heads).
Here’s a trick about avoiding it: apologize. Be conscious of power dynamics, and every time you spot that you’ve put yourself ‘on top’ of another person, apologize, defuse and give them their power back. Make an awkward self-deprecating joke explicitly giving them an ‘out’ that they can use or not use. Tell them that they are great and you are being kind of crummy.
Sure, it’s still going to come off as being weird and moody, but it’s going to mitigate the damage, at least.
You’re not doomed. No one is doomed. If your current default is not that great in your opinion, then you need to slowly work at replacing the things you do that you know are destructive with better methods.
I don’t know how you have tried to change previously, but you may want to look into getting help from people that actually have worked with abusers before and carefully outlining what abusive behaviours you actually do and how you can respond differently.
For instance, let’s say you get angry and you throw something that belongs to someone else at a wall. Immediately after such a situation small steps you can take to improve the situation afterwards are cleaning up after you break something, paying for a replacement if you break something, and apologising for breaking that thing because it was a poor way of responding (apologies are to make the other person feel better, not to make yourself feel better).
Start with small changes and improvements, then assess WHY are you responding in the ways you are to start with. If you don’t know why you are doing what you are doing, read books that break down the methodology of abusers like Lundy Bancroft’s ‘Why Does He Do That?’ (you can find it online for free as a pdf, I’ve read it twice) and try to talk to people who have worked with abusers to try to help them find better methods. Find out why you are doing these things and don’t let yourself make excuses for doing them, call yourself out on things and say no, that wasn’t the right way to respond, next time I should do this instead and follow through on the new approach.
Break it all down into small steps before anything else though so it isn’t like an insurmountable mountain, but like a ladder or a staircase where you can do one bit at a time and pause when you have to.
Then you didn’t read the whole thing, because it said lower down (and really that part should have been in bold at the top) that everyone does some of those things now and then. The problem is doing lots of them on a regular basis. And even then, doom is not certain so long as you care.
One of the big themes of Steven Universe is that even the best of people do hurt people they love sometimes. Everyone’s imperfect, everyone can improve.
I find it interesting that you’re using future tense here. Is that because you haven’t actually done much in the way of hurtful things so far, or something else? What does your brain do when you try to think about the past or present instead of this hypothetical doomy future?
I don’t know. I just feel like that’s all there is to me. I’v done those things. Shit right now I’m refusing to speak to a friend and that list made me realize I am doing it to punish him and not or any other reason. I’ve punched walls because I thought I was going to punch my abuser. I get mad at people over small stuff when I should get over it because I fuck up all the time.
All I keep hearing is that abuse victims become their abusers and if I have to put effort into not being a shitty person then what’s the fucking point? Am I going to spend the rest of my life putting myself on lockdown in case I go insane and beat my partner?
Spencer, it’s funny how our habits change us. Whatever your impulses, suppose you get through an hour without hurting anyone. Then two. Perhaps a day. Keep getting through one day, then another. Gradually it becomes a habit. Gradually that inner narrative becomes a critic you don’t listen to any more because they have not checked the papers lately.
Right, I’ve seen enough of this. Stop it. You’re not your abuser, you’re not “doomed” to anything, and you’re going to have to put effort into not being a shitty person. That’s just how it is.
I thought the same bullshit garbage you’re putting out here, not so very long ago. You know what happened? Well, I’ll fucking tell you what happened. I went on a similar rant to yours, and then I shut up and listened. People here explained things in a way that made sense, pointed me to reading material that helped me understand something super important.
Doing the occasional abusive thing sucks, yes, and you should definitely do everything you can to avoid it, and even make up for it afterward. But it’s not your “default state of being” or whatever lies you’re telling yourself. And it is a lie. Stop psyching yourself out, stop building this big, oppressive narrative that you’re “doomed” to be An Abuser. You don’t have to “put yourself on lockdown”. You’re only doomed to become something if you let yourself believe that you are.
Nothing is set in stone, but if you’re not even going to try to be better? Well, it’s on you, at that point. So, buck up, get yourself together, and chill a little bit. I promise you from personal experience, it’s not that bad, not if you don’t let it be.
“Am I going to spend the rest of my life putting myself on lockdown in case I go insane and beat my partner?”
No. You’re going to spend a portion of each week, for probably several years, working to retrain your brain so that the feelings become more manageable, and learning skills with which to manage them. I… huh, actually it was only, like, spring/summer this year that my brain was screaming at me that I had OCPD if not BPD and everything would be horrible and unbearable forever. It tried really fucking hard to persuade me to stop trying, and it lost. And that voice has gotten a *lot* weaker in the last six months. I feel like I’ve kinda reached critical mass and although the war’s not over, it doesn’t feel like a *war* any more, it feels more like… like a habit, like something that just happens automatically and I just have to tune in for the occasional tricky bit. The voice that used to make me feel like minor mistakes were an unforgivable sin is… really kinda small and weak now, if it tries to start something I just put up my bubble for a moment and it runs out of steam and I can get on with my life. 🙂
…anyways.
“All I keep hearing is that abuse victims become their abusers”
maybe go back and look at how many commenters show up to fight that BS every time it shows up here. it’s easy to forget about the good parts when that nasty voice is the one in control of remembering things.
” I get mad at people over small stuff when I should get over it ”
ugh, that “get over it” thing is so… toxic. there’s so much more to managing emotions than just “getting over it”, and I hate that that’s glossed over so often. it takes work, and skill, and I suspect the people parroting that line had to learn those skills too, it just happened so early they’ve forgotten it.
” I’ve punched walls because I thought I was going to punch my abuser.”
well, wanting to punch an abuser is pretty damn understandable 🙂 the gym is a better place to take those feelings when you can’t channel them in a constructive way.
“I’m refusing to speak to a friend and that list made me realize I am doing it to punish him and not or any other reason”
well, now you know it’s a silly thing to do, so you can think about (or ask people for advice about) what to do differently. I spent about 15 minutes doing that to my husband last week, despite knowing it was dumb, but then the anger balanced out and I sorted through my feelings and sent him a message explaining what upset me, and we talked through it and everything was ok again and now he knows not to do That Thing. 🙂 (he’ll forget again at some point, and we’ll talk about it again, and he’ll get better at remembering.)
healthy coping skills take practice and effort, but they can become habit over time.
what Inahc said: this post is actually about how even if you DO any of these things, it DOES NOT mean you’re irredeemable person with no hope.
This post is NOT a checklist of “you did this once or twice then you’re a Terrible Person Forever”, no.
It’s a list of “these behaviours are not okay, if you catch yourself doing them, please stop and evaluate WHY you’re doing such a thing. If you catch yourself in a pattern of these behaviours, examine both the situation that got you there and the relationship you have with the person this pattern is being repeated with.”
The pattern CAN and SHOULD be interrupted, there is hope as long as you are capable of recognizing it’s a fucked up pattern.
And from you are saying, you already know, in fact you constantly beat yourself up over it. You already are a step way beyond a lot of abusers in stopping and becoming a better person
I’m out right now so I don’t have a url, but, on the r/raisedbynarcissists wiki there’s a link to an article about FLEAS. That might help you feel less doomed? I hope?
Like, not only because of the resolution to the scene. Joe did what Robin was not able to do, listen to a person in a group he has power over explain how his actions have harmed them and internalize what it means as to their actions going forward.
Joe is valuing words he’s been taught his whole life to reject lest they “feminize him”, because Joyce is a person he genuinely cares about and wants to not hurt, especially in the ways she shared.
And he’s passed a moral event horizon and that is he now knows. He can’t claim ignorance. He can’t go back to being ignorant about the consequences of his actions. Now he knows the context and there’s no changing that. And that’s powerful.
The assholes who ruined gaming and the country reacted to that moral event horizon by going full asshole, trying to violent destroy the people who spoke of contexts and their experiences so as to try and assert an ignorant past where they no longer knew.
But that doesn’t work. Even if Joe were to have his darkest end and slip back into being a full-time creeper, he wouldn’t be able to escape the fact that he knows how it comes off to women, the contexts in which his actions thrived, the social poisons it helped support.
He could never fully go back to enjoying his harassment in the way he did before.
And that’s important, because habit is a powerful thing and Joe has a lot of sexist cobwebs he’s got to clear out, but I think that will serve as a line he has no intention of crossing intentionally ever again.
And that’s beautiful to see because I love to see people rising and improving and becoming better people. It’s part of why I treasure working with middle schoolers.
Panel 4: It is an interesting thing of how hard it can be sometimes for people of dominant groups to fully internalize what it means to treat people of a marginalized group they have relative power to like full human beings.
And part of the big reason is that dominant group members are often flooded with messages that treating the marginalized in a way that dehumanizes them or others them intensely IS treating them like “human beings”. Is what’s normal.
We’ve normalized a world where it is easy to ignore how many unarmed black men die in violence from those we trust to enforce our laws. We’ve normalized a world where queer folks have had to beg straight folks for their basic civil rights. Where trans folks are expected to weather insensitive questions about their genitals. Where an island of folks dies in obscurity because them asking for help in a similar way to any other neglected city gets read as uppity.
It’s really easy for straight men to read women as not full humans, to normalize viewing them as objects of “the sex” that will make them seem more manly to other guys. Because we’ve built a society of rationalization that actively tries to make that sound fair and right.
And that’s Joe’s frown here. That he sees now what it would actually mean to treat women like people and how much work he’ll have to do to get there.
Panel 5: But I believe in him. And am rooting for him.
Even if he doesn’t believe in himself to hold what he knows is true and hard close to his heart. I believe in his ability to not backslide and rationalize. To truly grow and become the worthy man I believe he can become.
Addendum: I also like how this strip illustrates the thing about doing what is right. It’s not just a one time change. The temptation to cut corners, lapse into bad habits, and justify mistreatment is strong and will reassert itself a lot.
Actually growing and changing and having that stick can sometimes be a life-time thing and it’s not often glamorous work. In fact it’s going to be work that’s sometimes going to leave you groaning over some of your actions.
But it’s critical work, made even more critical by those who have been abandoning it.
Like, I’ve been thinking a lot lately about “former allies” who meltdown and go full regressive because they feel they weren’t worshipped enough as an ally or because the work was hard and unglamorous and there’s a lot more money and support and ease of mind going back to viewing certain populations as subhuman.
It’s what makes redemption. Real redemption that sticks and has to work at it even after the big epiphany so important. Because other people are worth that hard work. Because every person deserves to be treated as a full human being.
I’ve sometimes thought about attempting to coopt male aggression, turn it against other men, the ones who are threats to the safety of women, queer folk, and people of color. I don’t know if it’s a good idea, or even possible. Would be satisfying though.
The problem is those folks find it always too easy to eventually loop back to destroying marginalized folks. I’m thinking of guys like the faux-feminist-allies who allied with literal nazi scumbag Mil0 because they rationalized hating certain feminists and marginalized people for being “too PC” in their opinion or having identities they thought were “funny”.
People like to focus on the first amendment because they don’t have the right, ability, foresight to use it anonymously and as such misuse of it can bite them in the but personally.
At the risk of going Full Geeky (please bear with me)…
One of the things I’ve been thinking and talking about lately – for a while, actually – is how Star Trek, of all things, handles this. TNG, particularly the first couple of seasons, when Roddenberry’s influence and brand of ally-utopianism was at its peak, liked very much to present all of humanity’s bad habits as a Solved Problem: “oh, we were like that before, but we’re over it now. We’re more evolved. Done. Finished.” Which, aside from making for some rather awful television (since all the flaws and dramatic tension had to come from the guest stars, who the regular cast could smugly condescend to), strikes me as rather like … well, college freshmen like most of our cast, confidently asserting that they’re fully-formed mature Adults now, having completed their messy and awkward adolescence(s), and are ready to face the world and know everything worth knowing.
… They got a lot better in later seasons and series, IMO, especially after Q administered a few swift and much-needed kicks in their complacency. (And Q, himself, turned out to be a flawed being who needed a few of those as well.) They learned, and we saw, just how easy it is to backslide into all of those old bad habits when everything isn’t perfect – especially when you’re confident that, oh, we don’t have to worry about that stuff anymore, haven’t you heard, _____-ism is over!
The Original Series, of all things, got it right, when they had Kirk deliver one of my favorite speeches from the 50 years of the franchise:
“All right! It’s instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We’re human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we’re killers, but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes. Knowing that we won’t kill… today!”
Having a good society, being a good person, or a good ally, isn’t a thing you do once and you’re done. It’s a process. It’s something you have to commit to and work at and choose, every day, that you’re not going to do the easy selfish shitty thing. You can’t sit back on your laurels and say, “Well, we never have to worry about THAT again.” It doesn’t work that way.
One of the things I always loved most about TNG was that it had the closest thing to a perfect society I could think of. Many people find it boring, and that’s okay. But I found the show very refreshing. It gives me hope for humanity.
Oh, it’s a lovely society (but not, as noted, without its problematic aspects; also, it does require maintenance and attention, not smug complacency that “we’ve built this perfect thing out of perfect people and it can never ever fail”). But interesting stories require conflict, which Roddenberry tried his best to entirely eliminate.
Great to live in (maybe, probably), incredibly boring to watch. It’s the difference between the life you want for yourself, and what you want to experience/observe in entertainment.
Hope you’re watching The Orville. Behind the pubescent humor, McFarlane really seems to be aiming for that Rodeenberry-esque optimistic human future vibe.
Yup. We have reason and free will, we don’t HAVE to do what the dumber parts of our brains are telling us to. (But a lot of people do, because it’s easier not to fight or think about it all the time (or ever) and just go along with those urges.)
Are you really sure ____-ism can never be ended? Even if we seized the means of entertainment and the schools and had 100 years of integrated, inclusive schools worldwide and media with good messages all around?
Xism can be ended. Its just people will always be inclined to define us and them in a stupid way. Some time in the future people might not care who someone goes to bed with but will burn people at the stake for liking strawberry milkshakes.
Aren’t we all? (Well, maybe not you, Mr. Pool.) The most we can hope for is to try to leave something good behind, make something valuable last beyond our lives.
I love that Kirk speech. Cleaning out the prejudice and misogyny and exceptionalism is a lifetime’s work for a person and it won’t end for civilizations either. Sooner or later it will be re-presented as a ‘bold new idea’ and someone is going to have to dig into the past and show that it is still wrong. As evidence I give the current open popularity of Nazis. Goddamn it, we fought a war about this stuff.
Many people have criticized Trek for being too idealistic. Feh on that. There is huge value in modeling what we could be if we try. If they want to watch dystopia, there are lots of other options.
And yes, it is incredibly important to have (positive) goals, even if we know we can never attain perfection. It’s not about having a destination, but a direction – something besides giving up and sinking into the muck.
I think Joe will have every chance to be a very good ally after the dust have settled. Next time he sees someone who behaves like he used to do, he will remember Joyce. That’s a powerful memory.
Maybe to you. When life is a struggle, even minor victories are worth celebrating. Joe’s going through a major change in outlook, and big change like that is very hard. Virtuoso performances can come later – for now, Joe needs to learn to stand up and walk again. Morally speaking. He’s facing the right direction, and not stepping backwards. That’s a good start. Considering what he was before, that’s worthy of praise.
I wanna believe this is gonna start getting to the root of his own self-loathing, but it might just be used for jokes like him providing commentary on his own actions. -_-
I viewed the last panel in the light of Popeye villain Bluto, having vowed to reform and change his ways, reach the inevitable point of “Well, now what?”
Okay, after reading all the comments (especially Cerberus’s, naturallyI) I choose to be more hopeful about Joe here. After all, his baby steps toward good dudeship plus his longevity as a character in both universes has made him a favorite of mine. I am a little bit loopy due to having drunk my way through some baseball earlier this evening, so apologies if any of that doesn’t make sense
Best part of it as I see it – he actually managed to stop himself BEFORE he roped that girl into his bullshit. He can have all the internal monolog he wants in his own time.
1) In light of @Cerberus’s comments, how the fuck did Western society (at least) survive for so long on all these maladaptive, oppressive coping strategies? boggles the mind…
2) Does Joe work out, or is that all fat and/or inborn?
I think it comes from the desire to create cultures based on what one is not.
Like, it comes from a desire to explain masculinity as “avoiding the feminine”, define “whiteness” as “not being PoC”, and so on. It creates this angry need to seek out any behavior that is not being expressed by the marginalized and to resent marginalized participation in spaces of interests.
Plus, us not being nomads allows a lot of hierarchal bullshit, because it allows a stability that can survive deeply oppressing a portion of your population.
1. Those strategies worked “well enough”, at least by the standards of those who benefited from them. People can (and do) think and talk about ways that things might be better, but in general, there’s only widespread change when the situation changes enough that the strategies don’t anymore.
My best guess is that Western society was, by and large, too busy trying to survive to have to wonder or even bother about such esoteric niceties
Like how long has it been in the west that we’ve had, for the most part, a guaranteed food supply, housing, education etc etc so with all those things we can now concentrate on other stuff
Yay Joe! Self awareness is an awesome thing. And the fact you value Joyce’s opinions enough that you are listening to what she said. Here’s hoping it lasts.
Alternatively, Joe might decide to give men a try, on the grounds that he already treats them like people, thereby disrupting the nascent romance between Danny and Ethan. If he went after Danny, Ethan would be tragically left behind, leading to Joyce learning how Joe stole the guy Ethan wanted, and hilarity ensues. If he went after Ethan, Danny would be forced to compete against Joe’s ruggedness armed only with a ukulele and a new hat, and Joe would suffer the realization that he had just unintentionally become the WORST WINGMAN EVER. Hilarity ensues.
I’m not sure Joe would know how to treat men like people either. Its just that his objectification of men is more passive and less intrusive. Mostly because he has little interest in them.
Dumbing of Age is a reboot featuring the casts of David Willis’s previous comics, Roomies, It’s Walky, and Shortpacked. Joyce and Walky were the ‘alpha couple’ in that continuity, and It’s Pregnancy was written while Willis’s wife was pregnant because pregnancy comics wouldn’t exactly fit into Dumbing of Age. DoA is a new continuity, character relationships and backstories range from nearly the same to totally different.
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so, a year
Our time, yeah. Unless there is another 3 day time skip, which makes it 6-7 months.
Never has a comment been more on point.
Juuust enough time for everyone to forget how awful Joe normally is before he reverts.
That girl is new best character
Name ideas, anyone?
Tori.
Tori the Untagged.
She looks more Polish or Silesian – actually looks like a toon verson of someone I know in Real Life [tm] – How about Walpurga Brzęczyszczykiewicz ?
…. gesundheit.
Tori, short for Victoria? I can get behind that. She seems like she could pull off a Victoria.
Debbie?
Debbie Downer?
Existence is fleeting.
Jessica. Her friends call her Jess.
And now someone (usually Bagge) is supposed to say something like:
It’s a very common name.
It IS a very common name.
Damn it, I second-guessed that one for Debbie.
It’s a very common name.
Too late, king.
By mere seconds! Curses!
And thus it is proved that emperors beat kings.
Hehehehe
Where do King-Emperors fit into all this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King-Emperor
They’re just an urban legend.
They’re what happens when you two have a kid together.
I choose not to think about that further.
I’m sure some people here would love to think further about that.
Jess the Beheader?
Brigit Greene. Sophomore Bio major, currently living in Forest Quad with the same roommate she had last year, they get along well. Works in the rec center as a kickboxing instructor. Doesn’t like milk in anything, still eats cereal. Rides a sweet mountain bike. Cherishes the memory of meeting one of her heroines, Natalie Coughlin.
I said name her, not stalk her.
What, she has more than one interest!? Mary Sue!
Nah, that would be the girl with the Law Major.
Lots of interests but no time and no life.
Ida Wanda
Autumn.
Susan Jennifer Aside
That’s Susan Jennifer Ana Chronistic Aside.
No, there are 3 Aside family members attending IU, Susan, Jennifer, and Homer.
Other Aside relatives at IU: Pear, Phil, Soror, and Reg.
Y’all keep leaving out Tairan, Herb, Dee, Caan, and Luke.
Pippin Galadriel Moonstone
Suzie. Suzie Derkins.
Name is Joe. They’re one and the same. It will all make sense. Trust in the tags.
Yetanother Amber Halfsister
I’m listening to Killer Queen by Queen right now, so my headcanons are particularly outlandish today
Would they be either Carol O’Niel, Flo Spector or Opus?
Her name will be Dotty, and she will be mine. She will be my Dotty
What, another Dotty?
Of course another Dotty else what is the point? *
We actually need three Dottys. One for Walky, one for Joyce, and apparently one for Frost Magi.
The one for Walky is obviously the lowest priority.
Rachel and/or Jennifer
Perhaps this is all a cover for her true identity of Jessica Rachel Jennifer FitzThingley? Soon-to-be-revealed secret heir/rival claimant to the Duchy of Thingley?
Tertiary Rachel? Does “tertiary” become something that sounds like a surname when you translate it into a foreign language?
According to Google, it’s Terziario in Italian.
It basically being Latin, most European languages are pretty close to the English, recognizably so for most of them. And most of the others either use accents/characters outside of the usual English set, or another alphabet entirely, alas.
But Rachel “Rache” Terziario sounds like a legit name, I think?
How painfully aware is Willis that he can no longer draw female characters in the foreground without them immediately becoming cool new characters with intricate backstories and fun quirks?
He will start giving them all exotic [to USA standards] names that will confuse and dismay the readership.
For example a nice Finnish family of Äteritsiputeritsipuolilautatsi.
I LIKE HER SHE’S PRETTY
Signed, Joe.
Trying to pass himself off as Walky to throw off shade and suspicion.
joe is giving himself too much credit. 3 days max.
I wonder if she noticed or if he stopped himself fast enough. She didn’t look like she was reacting or intentionally brushing him off, so I think he just ctrl+Z’d his howdy.
Something about the phrase “ctrl+Z’d his howdy” gives me the giggles, and I’m just mad I can’t think of any possible opportunity to say it.
“you don’t look so fine today, so may I’ll ctrl+Z my howdy and crawl back behind my desk to simply wait for you to have metabolized your first caffeinated transfer before attempting to communicate.”
would it work?
Both hands are clenched, I’m a-guessing she’s ignoring him? Maybe? (Just a guess.)
I’m sure there’s a pretty girl on campus who just wants a good time with no strings attached.
Probably not with YOU, but… y’know. There might be one with lack of interest in the Internet and not very many friends and who wasn’t able to overhear or told by any one else about you.
Joe/Wat: I don’t understand women.
Danny/Chaucer: Nor do I. But they understand us. Well, maybe not *you*.
There are. Heck, he even had that with Roz before he very likely ruined it.
And that’s one of the massive casualties of spaces where guys like Joe feel safe to harass in. It makes it massively unsafe to let others know that one is a woman who is openly interested in casual stuff and sex, because guys like Joe gravitate towards them and harass them under the mistaken belief that being interested in casual sex means you are not allowed standards or boundaries.
And that’s why PUA bullshit and harassers are so toxic to any type of sex positive culture. Because it massively increases the price of folks being open and honest about their sexual interest because the people getting off on harassing folks are making the space unsafe for that.
And again, that more than almost every thing else (almost) is a testamente to how much Joe blew it. Roz was totally on board with casual sex, no strings, no feels, and advertising their sexing it up – even publishing a sex tape. Everything Joe claimed to want.
And for no reason other than him being a complete douchebag – or more to the point, choosing his ego over supporting her – that’s over. He blew it. Because of his pick up artist bullshit.
Yup, he sacrificed his stated ultimate fantasy all in service to the cult he got trapped serving and his real desire in the moment to be seen as “totally alpha” and a macho man.
Bingo.
I hadn’t thought about it before, but Joe was getting this without even having to meet the “friend” part of that term, with Roz.
Is “fairly close acquaintances with benefits” perhaps a better phrase? As previously stated, I’m not-young, and long-married, and have no kids, so I don’t know if “FWB” is an all-purpose term (explanations welcom).
Whatever it is, if Joe couldn’t appreciate that, it’s his loss.
Have we actually seen a reaction from Roz to this whole thing?
Do we know that he’s blown it?
We did get a “Don’t rate women, Joe” out of earlier, but that’s all I remember.
No actually, you are right. That’s me over-interpreting things.
But given his role in sinking her class, and her reaction to it, I don’t think I’m THAT far off.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/upgrade/
How about that English TA?
You’d be surprised what you can get used to if you just keep on doing it, Joe.
Never talk to women unless they speak to you first, Joe.
Name, rank, and serial number. That’s all you say.
I know this is sarcstic, but it worked for Walky?
It is technically correct that Walky spoke at Dorothy first, but his first meaningful interaction with her was when he threw his Monkey Master toy at her. I rather doubt it would have had any chance of working on any woman who wasn’t Dorothy.
I don’t understand your logic here. What’s wrong with a man being the first one to speak to a woman?
Maybe it’s good advice for Joe. Not everyone, just Joe.
Yea. There is no good rule for who should approach who. The best I can come up with is go to places people go for what you are interested in and back out immediately if the person you approach shows a lack of interest. That or get a T shirt or something that clearly labels your openness to invitations for your favorite activity and see if anyone approaches you. I mean in words not just style.
It’s not so much good advice for the category of all men, but definitely for harassers who are used to approaching people who have no interest in talking with them, it’s an important step as the full meaning of women are people gets reinforced and internalized.
For a very specific headspace of douchery, the lesson of shut up, listen, and trust others who are interested to approach you can be an all-important stop-gap to meaningful personal growth.
^This is excellent advice for interacting with people in general.
As for telling if people are open to talking with you? I always use “stop, look and listen.”
It’s good advice for any man not to talk to a women from behind her where she can’t see him. Some day some guy might get hit by me who does that, it’s incredibly annoying, intrusive and disrespectful.
If you do that to me at night, your ears might fall off because I will yell at you because it’s fucking scary.
Approach from where she can see you. Either you looked at her, she looked back, you smiled, she smiled, before you start talking, or she already told you to NOT talk to her.
Just to clarify: if you start talking to her from where she can’t see you, you already skipped waiting for consent once.
This is actually one of the most depressing parts of working the night shift. Realizing that at 3 AM, fear is pretty much the baseline reaction to me from any woman that does not know me really well. It’s something that’s actually very difficult to empathize with, because I just don’t experience anything similar. I’ve got no problem walking a mile to the 24 hour Subway at 2:30 AM for the exercise. The women who work here wouldn’t dare, and often call me crazy for doing it. But if I have business with a female co worker on a different floor that I dont see often, I have to make sure I make a lot of noise as I approach because otherwise she’s probably going to jump high enough to dislodge ceiling tiles.
I remember, years ago, hearing an interview with a guy who got jumped one evening after he was leaving I think it was a bar (it was like twenty years ago so my memory of precise details is a bit fuzzy). As I recall, he was a musician and someone took exception to something or other or what and waited for him in the alley out back and beat the crap out of him.
What I do remember particularly well was the realization it had caused, and the resulting fear reaction, that (him being kind of a skinny dude) pretty much any guy that passed him on the street could beat the crap out of him and do whatever they liked to him, up to and including murdering him, and he wouldn’t be able to stop them. That the only reason that that random guy there wasn’t just hurting him was because he just wasn’t interested in doing it. Right then. That he was walking amongst them unmolested not because he could in any way deter them, or it was wrong (legally or morally); it was just because, you know, they just didn’t feel like it. And what a terrifyingly thin thread that was to base one’s sense of safety on.
He described how realizing that there was some guy walking behind him in the same direction, or hanging out at the mouth of an alley he was passing, especially in the evening, made him instinctively fear for his safety. How awful it was to live with that constant background fear.
And also how, it having been around six months since he was assaulted, it was wearing off and he was finally being able to walk around feeling like he was in reasonable safety (no evidence to the contrary being presented), even at night, the way he used to, and what a relief it was, because, holy cow, how awful to live like that, eh? Ha ha!
And much to my disgust, no awareness (or at least acknowledgement) from him nor the interviewer that actually, yeah, nice for you to be able to get over it and realize it wasn’t being a rational fear and that you really didn’t need to have a friend along to keep you safe; but that this is actual reality for pretty much every woman, let alone anyone LGBTQ+. That his months of fear was an actual, constant, unending, rational fact of life for at least half the population (and probably more; definitely so when you add in non-white guys and gender-queer guys to all the women); and it was only his privilege of being a straight white guy that allowed him to shrug that fear of assault off as “irrational”.
Bleahg.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10752232/Our-attitude-to-violence-against-men-is-out-of-date.html
“Outside the home, your chances of being attacked or killed are much higher if you’re a man. Men make up over two-thirds of murder victims, 68%.“
Eew, I was hoping that anecdote was going somewhere better. It’s sad he didn’t learn much from the experience. :C
Because yeah, as a short and ~pretty~ effeminate queer guy, I feel it all the time. And I mean around everyone, not even just people who look like cis men. It’s distressing some people don’t get that and apparently lack an imagination.
In the context of hitting on a stranger, I definitely agree. I assume that greeting someone you know isn’t a bad thing?
Usually, I still wouldn’t run after someone I know and talk to them from behind. This would have to have a specific reason like having been late and catching up or some such.
It’s different with really good friends whom you can realistically expect to know your voice so well that they can identify it even where you are not expected (so hearing “hey, thejeff” from behind conveys the information that a friend is around and it’s not the nodding acquaintance you just now on purpose passed without looking at them and also not a total stranger trying to hit on you).
If you are in view of people you know, it’s usually considered polite to acknowledge them in some way, nodding, smiling, …
Usually their body language will tell you if they are aware of you being there and if they are open to chat or not.
Yeah, passing without looking and then being talked to from behind is awkward at best. I was thinking more of someone behind you going the same way.
Running around to the front so you can approach from where she can see you is even weirder and maybe more threatening.
There’s nothing wrong with approaching a woman. Just, like, don’t open the conversation with a reference to your penis. Don’t be the real life equivalent of those guys that get on OKC and mass message a picture of their penis to the entire female userbase. Even if you’re just looking to hook up, you can spend 5 minutes talking to them like a person until you determine whether or not they’re actually interested in you at all.
Of course, skipping straight to the penis pictures sure does save time. For the people who don’t want that, at least.
I honestly don’t think Joe is giving himself enough credit here. I’m sure that he WILL slip up but still.
“My sign is vital, my hands are cold
And I’m on my knees looking for the answer“
Now it’s in my head, you menace.
Close your eyes
Clear your heart
Cut the cord
hmmm. I guess this week’s just full of jackassery.
Aw well. I wouldn’t think Joe would be so immediately able to take a 180 on his attitude anyway. the fact that he’s being a jackass to himself because he doesn’t believe he can change isn’t all that bad, considering. I believe you can become a decent person joe! just keep at it.
it’s kind of interesting that he’s actually trying a little though, you gotta admit, even if he himself is not optimistic about it. Idk, it seems better to acknowledge that you’re gonna fuck up eventually rather than deny it could ever happen, that awareness could be what stops you *shrugs*
It’s a start. A super valuable and important start.
Exactly! Like any bad habit, identifying the problem is the first step.
To be honest, I’m a little wary of anyone who insists they’ve worked through their issues.
Usually it just means they’ve found a comfortable place to stop and built ways to justify not changing anymore.
I’m assuming there must be a few girls on campus who haven’t heard about Joe’s do list yet, right?
Depending on how many women are on campus, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility there might even been a few women who don’t see anything with what Joe did and think men are supposed to act like that.
anything wrong
Guaranteed. There’s always folks who don’t get the heads up about the missing stair.
The only people with widespread notoreity on my campus had been arrested and were in the news, even then I couldn’t tell you their names. In general, most people don’t know most other people by name or sight.
I think it’s more likely he would chat someone up and then they’d find out he was “the do-list guy” and call it off at that point.
There’s a lot of info at IU’s University Institutional Research and Reporting.
From the demographic report, in 2017, there were 3,916 female students enrolled in the first-year class at the Bloomington campus (4,085 male students). So depending on the retention rate, there are maybe 13,000-16,000 undergrad women there, never mind the graduate students.
Even if he was on a viral sex tape, it’s a distinct possibility that some of those thousands of women have no idea who he is. Then again, as an Old, I cannot even ballpark how quickly or how widely things spread on teh social medias nowadays.
Not everyone knows Joe by sight. DO they?
He’s also the star of a sex video. That probably gained him some exposure.
So to speak.
I have a suspicion that whoever released the To Do list also included a picture of Joe.
Or if they just released the login info, then I’m positive his feed includes pictures of himself. In fact, I can’t imagine he wouldn’t.
Joa and Danny released it.
the alt text, oh my god…!
Sarah just isn’t ANYWHERE she needs to be. I mean, she hasn’t even met her new neighbor yet!
I’m assuming that after she sent Joyce to church, she went on to have some quality time with Other Jacob.
Oh, Sarah and Malaya – a real meeting of the misanthropes.
Noooooooooooooo!!! Haven’t you seen Star Trek?! If they interact they’ll both blow up!
But is the alt text referring to Joe’s comments in panel three, or his comments in panel five, or both?
Or is it just hoping that Sarah would show up with a baseball bat, on general principles?
Human beans, baked beans, they’re all the same to me.
What about Ham and Beans?
They’re not kosher!
Human bean juice. Ha Ha. [/Rorschach voice]
One interpretation could be that he only promised to treat other human beings like the majority of human beings treat other human beings, as opposed to Joyce’s very narrow (if gradually re-evaluating) idea of how human being SHOULD treat each other.
One could further argue that Joe is a human being, so how he treats others is by definition a way in which human beings are treated.
Either interpretation gives Joe a lot more flexibility.
…and now I’m just going to take my inner lawyer out back and shoot him.
[Mr. Meeseeks voice] OOOOOH he’s TRYIN’
In the spirit of the alt-text:
Sarah: “I give you about a week.”
Joe: “Yup, that’s about what I figure.”
Sarah: “Wait, you know this?”
Joe: “If I’m having this much trouble on day 2, I’m smart enough to realize that I’m not going to last, and I’m honest enough to admit it. The habits are too deeply ingrained for me to just stop whenever I want.”
Sarah: “Exactly. You might want to stop, on some level, but you can’t stop who YOU are. You might want to redeem yourself, but that doesn’t make you redeemable.”
Joe: “Can’t be fixed. Or fought.”
Sarah: “It’s just a pointless struggle against-”
Joyce: “HEY! I thought we’d agreed to make things BETTER? Let’s MAKE THINGS BETTER!” *storms off*
Joe: “….”
Sarah: “….”
Joe: “Is she talking about you or me?”
Sarah: “I think me? Or maybe both of us?”
Joe: “Really? So, which if us were YOU talking about a moment ago?”
Sarah: “….”
Joe: “…”
Sarah: “… how about we press reset on the past forty seconds of this conversation and start over somewhere we won’t be interrupted by random rays of sunshine?”
Joe: “Sounds good. I know a coffee shop.”
Oh no this is adorable
The ship is back!
I like the moments with “…” between them; they make good beat panels.
Well damn, now I ship it.
Psssht, imagine if he did complete that question, and she was wearing some kind of tiny wireless headphones or something, so that she couldn’t hear him. It’d be a nice reminder of his situation in any case (in that he would think she was giving him the silent treatment for his do list) while being extremely ironic. :p
Question? Statement? I dunno, I’m tired and busy and my memory’s a sieve. Anywho, time for some desperate last minute reading for AP English Lit. *sighs despondently*
Comic Reactions:
Oh, I have so many feelings.
Panel 1: I love that this is where we start because it’s such a beautiful counterpart to Joe’s immediate way of internalizing all he’s learned.
Like, he’s about to block himself sexually harassing someone and his first instinct will be to beat himself up about how every woman hates him (this was a huge theme of his self-flagellation as he suffered the most minimal of consequences for intensely disrespectful and invasive actions.
And yet we have the visuals. Him, already smugly satisfied with the smug creepy come-on he wants to say and her, completely unaware of his existence.
Like, she’s not giving him any attention whatsoever, merely walking about on her day, doing her own thing, not showing any sign of being upset with or wanting to actively talk with Joe, not showing any sign of being interested in starting a conversation with him.
And that really illustrates one of the most fucked up aspects of what Joe, hopefully accurate to the past tense here, used to do, deliberately ignoring body language on who to approach simply because his own self-satisfaction at making a gross point about someone’s body and asking for their attention was something he viewed as more important.
And the thing is, that’s a worldview that a lot of guys get encouraged to view the world through. That the standard rules of social dynamics should go out the window when it comes to women you find attractive. That one’s own boner-needs should trump the comfort of others. And the idea that harassing is the only method of interacting with women.
And not only is it complete bullshit, it creates a lot of cover for serial harassers which is why we’re existing in a world where a huge amount of communities are finding serial harassers in positions of relative popularity and power.
Panel 2: But he stopped. Voluntarily. He didn’t follow through on the pattern he found it so easily to slip into. He considered the full contexts that Joyce revealed to him. He stopped.
And it feels triumphant, like this might be a huge major moment in the redemption arc of Joe, that will begin to cure him of his… less savory ideas of consent and treatment of women.
Like this is huge for him. And we see it in so much of his body language and also this self-abusing metaphor he’s constructed for himself facing the minimum of consequences.
He’s tied almost every facet of his self-esteem into a twisted toxic myth of masculinity and was using that as a very strong mask to avoid feeling doubt and vulnerability and insecurity about his actions.
And that’s a very common thing. A lot of guys are encouraged to adopt personas that hurt others to avoid the “emasculation” of showing weakness and vulnerability and allowing women the right to hurt them or have relative power. And it’s a tragedy, not only because of how it hurts and stunts the men, but by the ways in which others can get intensely hurt by the stunts folks trapped in spaces like that end up doing to avoid that vulnerability.
And it’s somewhat poetic that this story he’s constructed surrounding the very minimal consequences of women being aware of what he did are reminding him of how ineffective and harmful this attempt at hiding from vulnerability really was.
And it’s enough here to get him to think beyond himself and that which would amuse him in the moment and letting the woman he was about to harass go about her day as she would have normally.
That whole “never-show-weakness-“thing is one of the core tenets of toxic masculinity, and that’s why I’m so happy for Joe’s stunt with the doughnuts. Stupid as it was – it was him admitting guilt and acting on that admittance.
And the supernova of Joyce’s big blue eyes did the rest of the job.
To see your faults and be able to check yourself BEFORE you rope other people in on it, that’s a very important step.
Hey Spencer, are you reading the comments today? If you are, I suggest you check out this tumblr post on being an abuser, especially from the perspective of people are have been or are victims
https://hobbitsaarebas.tumblr.com/post/165463629983/how-to-tell-if-you-are-emotionally-abusive
Not that it was intended for me, in particular, but thanks for this. It helped clarify some things I was murky on, and added to my perspective.
Oh my god this is a fantastic guide <3
I do those things. I don’t try to. But I do.
I knew it. I fucking knew it. I’m fucking doomed. I’ve always been doomed.
With as much desire as you have to be different, I am sure it is possible. It may be difficult, with going two steps forward and falling one step back, but it is possible.
If I have to put effort into not being an abusive piece of shit that just means my default state of being is to be a worthless sack of dogshit you dont understand I’ve tried so much to change and nothing has and I don’t know what to do anymore I can’t live like this constantly hating myself
You’re not worthless, or a piece of shit. Even if you sometimes have impulses to do shitty things. Even if you constantly have them. Even if you fuck up and act on those impulses. You’re still not a monster.
I wish I had more specific advice, but please don’t let that voice that’s telling you that you’re worthless win. That voice can go fuck itself. You ARE a good person despite your flaws and your fuckups (real or imagined), and the world is better with you in it.
*hugs* what do to? Keep talking about it. Keep trying pointless-sounding shit until something works. And start the long process of learning to not hate yourself, because yes, it’s very hard to live like that. I’ve been there. But the other day, I found out at least a part of me *likes* me, really likes me, and that was so wonderful. 🙂
Also, download the game Best Fiends, because it rewards you for effort as well as winning, enough that I kept bashing my head against levels I really believed were unwinnable, until I won them, and after nearly 400 of those I’m starting to feel less stressed out by impossible-seeming tasks in the real world too. 🙂
Actually, pretty much everyone has to put effort into it. If being abusive wasn’t the easier option, there wouldn’t be so many people doing it. It comes easier to some, harder to others (those who have experienced it themselves, for example, and have had it normalized somewhere in their heads).
Here’s a trick about avoiding it: apologize. Be conscious of power dynamics, and every time you spot that you’ve put yourself ‘on top’ of another person, apologize, defuse and give them their power back. Make an awkward self-deprecating joke explicitly giving them an ‘out’ that they can use or not use. Tell them that they are great and you are being kind of crummy.
Sure, it’s still going to come off as being weird and moody, but it’s going to mitigate the damage, at least.
No! Not doomed! *Hugs* you get yourself in therapy and start breaking bad habits and tell that voice to go fuck itself.
It gets better. It gets easier. And it’s worth it.
You’re not doomed. No one is doomed. If your current default is not that great in your opinion, then you need to slowly work at replacing the things you do that you know are destructive with better methods.
I don’t know how you have tried to change previously, but you may want to look into getting help from people that actually have worked with abusers before and carefully outlining what abusive behaviours you actually do and how you can respond differently.
For instance, let’s say you get angry and you throw something that belongs to someone else at a wall. Immediately after such a situation small steps you can take to improve the situation afterwards are cleaning up after you break something, paying for a replacement if you break something, and apologising for breaking that thing because it was a poor way of responding (apologies are to make the other person feel better, not to make yourself feel better).
Start with small changes and improvements, then assess WHY are you responding in the ways you are to start with. If you don’t know why you are doing what you are doing, read books that break down the methodology of abusers like Lundy Bancroft’s ‘Why Does He Do That?’ (you can find it online for free as a pdf, I’ve read it twice) and try to talk to people who have worked with abusers to try to help them find better methods. Find out why you are doing these things and don’t let yourself make excuses for doing them, call yourself out on things and say no, that wasn’t the right way to respond, next time I should do this instead and follow through on the new approach.
Break it all down into small steps before anything else though so it isn’t like an insurmountable mountain, but like a ladder or a staircase where you can do one bit at a time and pause when you have to.
If I see myself in that list it means I’m doomed. It’s that simple.
There’s no hope for me.
I’m going to be an abuser. I’m going to hurt people. I am doomed to hurt people.
Then you didn’t read the whole thing, because it said lower down (and really that part should have been in bold at the top) that everyone does some of those things now and then. The problem is doing lots of them on a regular basis. And even then, doom is not certain so long as you care.
One of the big themes of Steven Universe is that even the best of people do hurt people they love sometimes. Everyone’s imperfect, everyone can improve.
I find it interesting that you’re using future tense here. Is that because you haven’t actually done much in the way of hurtful things so far, or something else? What does your brain do when you try to think about the past or present instead of this hypothetical doomy future?
I don’t know. I just feel like that’s all there is to me. I’v done those things. Shit right now I’m refusing to speak to a friend and that list made me realize I am doing it to punish him and not or any other reason. I’ve punched walls because I thought I was going to punch my abuser. I get mad at people over small stuff when I should get over it because I fuck up all the time.
All I keep hearing is that abuse victims become their abusers and if I have to put effort into not being a shitty person then what’s the fucking point? Am I going to spend the rest of my life putting myself on lockdown in case I go insane and beat my partner?
Spencer, it’s funny how our habits change us. Whatever your impulses, suppose you get through an hour without hurting anyone. Then two. Perhaps a day. Keep getting through one day, then another. Gradually it becomes a habit. Gradually that inner narrative becomes a critic you don’t listen to any more because they have not checked the papers lately.
Right, I’ve seen enough of this. Stop it. You’re not your abuser, you’re not “doomed” to anything, and you’re going to have to put effort into not being a shitty person. That’s just how it is.
I thought the same bullshit garbage you’re putting out here, not so very long ago. You know what happened? Well, I’ll fucking tell you what happened. I went on a similar rant to yours, and then I shut up and listened. People here explained things in a way that made sense, pointed me to reading material that helped me understand something super important.
Doing the occasional abusive thing sucks, yes, and you should definitely do everything you can to avoid it, and even make up for it afterward. But it’s not your “default state of being” or whatever lies you’re telling yourself. And it is a lie. Stop psyching yourself out, stop building this big, oppressive narrative that you’re “doomed” to be An Abuser. You don’t have to “put yourself on lockdown”. You’re only doomed to become something if you let yourself believe that you are.
Nothing is set in stone, but if you’re not even going to try to be better? Well, it’s on you, at that point. So, buck up, get yourself together, and chill a little bit. I promise you from personal experience, it’s not that bad, not if you don’t let it be.
here’s that article on fleas: http://narcissistschild.blogspot.ca/2013/02/am-i-narcissist-too-all-about-fleas.html
now…
“Am I going to spend the rest of my life putting myself on lockdown in case I go insane and beat my partner?”
No. You’re going to spend a portion of each week, for probably several years, working to retrain your brain so that the feelings become more manageable, and learning skills with which to manage them. I… huh, actually it was only, like, spring/summer this year that my brain was screaming at me that I had OCPD if not BPD and everything would be horrible and unbearable forever. It tried really fucking hard to persuade me to stop trying, and it lost. And that voice has gotten a *lot* weaker in the last six months. I feel like I’ve kinda reached critical mass and although the war’s not over, it doesn’t feel like a *war* any more, it feels more like… like a habit, like something that just happens automatically and I just have to tune in for the occasional tricky bit. The voice that used to make me feel like minor mistakes were an unforgivable sin is… really kinda small and weak now, if it tries to start something I just put up my bubble for a moment and it runs out of steam and I can get on with my life. 🙂
…anyways.
“All I keep hearing is that abuse victims become their abusers”
maybe go back and look at how many commenters show up to fight that BS every time it shows up here. it’s easy to forget about the good parts when that nasty voice is the one in control of remembering things.
” I get mad at people over small stuff when I should get over it ”
ugh, that “get over it” thing is so… toxic. there’s so much more to managing emotions than just “getting over it”, and I hate that that’s glossed over so often. it takes work, and skill, and I suspect the people parroting that line had to learn those skills too, it just happened so early they’ve forgotten it.
” I’ve punched walls because I thought I was going to punch my abuser.”
well, wanting to punch an abuser is pretty damn understandable 🙂 the gym is a better place to take those feelings when you can’t channel them in a constructive way.
“I’m refusing to speak to a friend and that list made me realize I am doing it to punish him and not or any other reason”
well, now you know it’s a silly thing to do, so you can think about (or ask people for advice about) what to do differently. I spent about 15 minutes doing that to my husband last week, despite knowing it was dumb, but then the anger balanced out and I sorted through my feelings and sent him a message explaining what upset me, and we talked through it and everything was ok again and now he knows not to do That Thing. 🙂 (he’ll forget again at some point, and we’ll talk about it again, and he’ll get better at remembering.)
healthy coping skills take practice and effort, but they can become habit over time.
gravatars, how do they work 😉
Thanks for the link and all the help you’ve given me. I’m sorry for throwing this all up here again.
*hugs* thanks for listening 🙂 I’d rather you have this out here than just continue being in pain.
what Inahc said: this post is actually about how even if you DO any of these things, it DOES NOT mean you’re irredeemable person with no hope.
This post is NOT a checklist of “you did this once or twice then you’re a Terrible Person Forever”, no.
It’s a list of “these behaviours are not okay, if you catch yourself doing them, please stop and evaluate WHY you’re doing such a thing. If you catch yourself in a pattern of these behaviours, examine both the situation that got you there and the relationship you have with the person this pattern is being repeated with.”
The pattern CAN and SHOULD be interrupted, there is hope as long as you are capable of recognizing it’s a fucked up pattern.
And from you are saying, you already know, in fact you constantly beat yourself up over it. You already are a step way beyond a lot of abusers in stopping and becoming a better person
I’m out right now so I don’t have a url, but, on the r/raisedbynarcissists wiki there’s a link to an article about FLEAS. That might help you feel less doomed? I hope?
Panel 3: This bit is so powerful and intense.
Like, not only because of the resolution to the scene. Joe did what Robin was not able to do, listen to a person in a group he has power over explain how his actions have harmed them and internalize what it means as to their actions going forward.
Joe is valuing words he’s been taught his whole life to reject lest they “feminize him”, because Joyce is a person he genuinely cares about and wants to not hurt, especially in the ways she shared.
And he’s passed a moral event horizon and that is he now knows. He can’t claim ignorance. He can’t go back to being ignorant about the consequences of his actions. Now he knows the context and there’s no changing that. And that’s powerful.
The assholes who ruined gaming and the country reacted to that moral event horizon by going full asshole, trying to violent destroy the people who spoke of contexts and their experiences so as to try and assert an ignorant past where they no longer knew.
But that doesn’t work. Even if Joe were to have his darkest end and slip back into being a full-time creeper, he wouldn’t be able to escape the fact that he knows how it comes off to women, the contexts in which his actions thrived, the social poisons it helped support.
He could never fully go back to enjoying his harassment in the way he did before.
And that’s important, because habit is a powerful thing and Joe has a lot of sexist cobwebs he’s got to clear out, but I think that will serve as a line he has no intention of crossing intentionally ever again.
And that’s beautiful to see because I love to see people rising and improving and becoming better people. It’s part of why I treasure working with middle schoolers.
Panel 4: It is an interesting thing of how hard it can be sometimes for people of dominant groups to fully internalize what it means to treat people of a marginalized group they have relative power to like full human beings.
And part of the big reason is that dominant group members are often flooded with messages that treating the marginalized in a way that dehumanizes them or others them intensely IS treating them like “human beings”. Is what’s normal.
We’ve normalized a world where it is easy to ignore how many unarmed black men die in violence from those we trust to enforce our laws. We’ve normalized a world where queer folks have had to beg straight folks for their basic civil rights. Where trans folks are expected to weather insensitive questions about their genitals. Where an island of folks dies in obscurity because them asking for help in a similar way to any other neglected city gets read as uppity.
It’s really easy for straight men to read women as not full humans, to normalize viewing them as objects of “the sex” that will make them seem more manly to other guys. Because we’ve built a society of rationalization that actively tries to make that sound fair and right.
And that’s Joe’s frown here. That he sees now what it would actually mean to treat women like people and how much work he’ll have to do to get there.
Panel 5: But I believe in him. And am rooting for him.
Even if he doesn’t believe in himself to hold what he knows is true and hard close to his heart. I believe in his ability to not backslide and rationalize. To truly grow and become the worthy man I believe he can become.
Cerberus. You are my hero. 🙂
Good comparison with Robin. She doubled down on her bullshit. Joe takes a step back.
I look forward to Joe finding another way to be a man than that toxic script he has been following so far.
“Plus, I keep calling them girls.”
Addendum: I also like how this strip illustrates the thing about doing what is right. It’s not just a one time change. The temptation to cut corners, lapse into bad habits, and justify mistreatment is strong and will reassert itself a lot.
Actually growing and changing and having that stick can sometimes be a life-time thing and it’s not often glamorous work. In fact it’s going to be work that’s sometimes going to leave you groaning over some of your actions.
But it’s critical work, made even more critical by those who have been abandoning it.
Like, I’ve been thinking a lot lately about “former allies” who meltdown and go full regressive because they feel they weren’t worshipped enough as an ally or because the work was hard and unglamorous and there’s a lot more money and support and ease of mind going back to viewing certain populations as subhuman.
It’s what makes redemption. Real redemption that sticks and has to work at it even after the big epiphany so important. Because other people are worth that hard work. Because every person deserves to be treated as a full human being.
I’ve sometimes thought about attempting to coopt male aggression, turn it against other men, the ones who are threats to the safety of women, queer folk, and people of color. I don’t know if it’s a good idea, or even possible. Would be satisfying though.
The problem is those folks find it always too easy to eventually loop back to destroying marginalized folks. I’m thinking of guys like the faux-feminist-allies who allied with literal nazi scumbag Mil0 because they rationalized hating certain feminists and marginalized people for being “too PC” in their opinion or having identities they thought were “funny”.
I’ll never understand the mindset of being asked to be less of an asshole is political correctness gone too far.
some people like to focus on the first amendment because unlike, say, jury duty or voting, its a freedom instead of a duty and requires less effort.
People like to focus on the first amendment because they don’t have the right, ability, foresight to use it anonymously and as such misuse of it can bite them in the but personally.
At the risk of going Full Geeky (please bear with me)…
One of the things I’ve been thinking and talking about lately – for a while, actually – is how Star Trek, of all things, handles this. TNG, particularly the first couple of seasons, when Roddenberry’s influence and brand of ally-utopianism was at its peak, liked very much to present all of humanity’s bad habits as a Solved Problem: “oh, we were like that before, but we’re over it now. We’re more evolved. Done. Finished.” Which, aside from making for some rather awful television (since all the flaws and dramatic tension had to come from the guest stars, who the regular cast could smugly condescend to), strikes me as rather like … well, college freshmen like most of our cast, confidently asserting that they’re fully-formed mature Adults now, having completed their messy and awkward adolescence(s), and are ready to face the world and know everything worth knowing.
… They got a lot better in later seasons and series, IMO, especially after Q administered a few swift and much-needed kicks in their complacency. (And Q, himself, turned out to be a flawed being who needed a few of those as well.) They learned, and we saw, just how easy it is to backslide into all of those old bad habits when everything isn’t perfect – especially when you’re confident that, oh, we don’t have to worry about that stuff anymore, haven’t you heard, _____-ism is over!
The Original Series, of all things, got it right, when they had Kirk deliver one of my favorite speeches from the 50 years of the franchise:
“All right! It’s instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We’re human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we’re killers, but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes. Knowing that we won’t kill… today!”
Having a good society, being a good person, or a good ally, isn’t a thing you do once and you’re done. It’s a process. It’s something you have to commit to and work at and choose, every day, that you’re not going to do the easy selfish shitty thing. You can’t sit back on your laurels and say, “Well, we never have to worry about THAT again.” It doesn’t work that way.
One of the things I always loved most about TNG was that it had the closest thing to a perfect society I could think of. Many people find it boring, and that’s okay. But I found the show very refreshing. It gives me hope for humanity.
Oh, it’s a lovely society (but not, as noted, without its problematic aspects; also, it does require maintenance and attention, not smug complacency that “we’ve built this perfect thing out of perfect people and it can never ever fail”). But interesting stories require conflict, which Roddenberry tried his best to entirely eliminate.
Great to live in (maybe, probably), incredibly boring to watch. It’s the difference between the life you want for yourself, and what you want to experience/observe in entertainment.
Hope you’re watching The Orville. Behind the pubescent humor, McFarlane really seems to be aiming for that Rodeenberry-esque optimistic human future vibe.
yeah, but do I still have to deal with the awful humor to get to it?
So, in other words, we have a bunch of instincts screaming at us to be assholes, but there’s nothing saying we have to follow them?
Yup. We have reason and free will, we don’t HAVE to do what the dumber parts of our brains are telling us to. (But a lot of people do, because it’s easier not to fight or think about it all the time (or ever) and just go along with those urges.)
Are you really sure ____-ism can never be ended? Even if we seized the means of entertainment and the schools and had 100 years of integrated, inclusive schools worldwide and media with good messages all around?
Xism can be ended. Its just people will always be inclined to define us and them in a stupid way. Some time in the future people might not care who someone goes to bed with but will burn people at the stake for liking strawberry milkshakes.
So you’re saying I’m doomed either way?
Aren’t we all? (Well, maybe not you, Mr. Pool.) The most we can hope for is to try to leave something good behind, make something valuable last beyond our lives.
I love that Kirk speech. Cleaning out the prejudice and misogyny and exceptionalism is a lifetime’s work for a person and it won’t end for civilizations either. Sooner or later it will be re-presented as a ‘bold new idea’ and someone is going to have to dig into the past and show that it is still wrong. As evidence I give the current open popularity of Nazis. Goddamn it, we fought a war about this stuff.
Many people have criticized Trek for being too idealistic. Feh on that. There is huge value in modeling what we could be if we try. If they want to watch dystopia, there are lots of other options.
YEAH!
Just so.
And yes, it is incredibly important to have (positive) goals, even if we know we can never attain perfection. It’s not about having a destination, but a direction – something besides giving up and sinking into the muck.
I think Joe will have every chance to be a very good ally after the dust have settled. Next time he sees someone who behaves like he used to do, he will remember Joyce. That’s a powerful memory.
But what a week it will be!
Make the world a better place. One week at a time.
reminded me of the quote “Fighting for a better tomorrow isn’t a one time thing. The tomorrows keep on coming”
A week of basically being a minimally-decent human being? That’s….. not that amazing.
Dunno… a week of actively being on the lookout for your worst trait and trying to change them, that’s nothing to sneeze at.
Yeah, but a mediocre performance in the face of a major handicap is still a mediocre performance.
Maybe to you. When life is a struggle, even minor victories are worth celebrating. Joe’s going through a major change in outlook, and big change like that is very hard. Virtuoso performances can come later – for now, Joe needs to learn to stand up and walk again. Morally speaking. He’s facing the right direction, and not stepping backwards. That’s a good start. Considering what he was before, that’s worthy of praise.
Imagine what this planet would be like if every single person decided to, just like Joe, improve themselves ever so slightly
I’m using this line every time someone says something they do bad doesn’t matter so is fine.
Joe’s gonna be joeing himself for a while until this dies down.
I think he can, I think he can, I think he can…
Maybe five days
Don’t believe in you, Joe. Believe in me who believes in you!
*Audible crying.*
GUH HUH HUH HUH TOO SOON UHH HUH HUH HUH
I wanna believe this is gonna start getting to the root of his own self-loathing, but it might just be used for jokes like him providing commentary on his own actions. -_-
I viewed the last panel in the light of Popeye villain Bluto, having vowed to reform and change his ways, reach the inevitable point of “Well, now what?”
yeah, being an asshole is lonely, but being a good guy after being an asshole for so long can be boring
It’s really simple, Joe! As a first step, learn to teat a woman the way you would treat Dann… yyy… no, that’s probably not a good idea.
how about treat women the way he (hopefully) treats his own mom?
Shame she ignored you. She’s cute.
Someday, hopefully, he’ll be worth her attention.
DAMMIT JOE
Okay, after reading all the comments (especially Cerberus’s, naturallyI) I choose to be more hopeful about Joe here. After all, his baby steps toward good dudeship plus his longevity as a character in both universes has made him a favorite of mine. I am a little bit loopy due to having drunk my way through some baseball earlier this evening, so apologies if any of that doesn’t make sense
Best part of it as I see it – he actually managed to stop himself BEFORE he roped that girl into his bullshit. He can have all the internal monolog he wants in his own time.
I had to read Cerb to understand it (common occurrence), but at first I thought she was just walking by and not even giving him eye contact.
He did stop himself. Good steps, Joe.
Joe has remarkably mobile eyes!
I’m not sure if this is what Joyce meant when she told him to “bounce his eyes,” but it seems to be working so far 😛
I’m just shocked nobody in-universe has said “Bounce your eyebrows”. It’s something of a hallmark.
Oh, hey, it’s pretty, female, not Cara Delevingne me.
Give it a week, yes. Then another day. Then another.
Just hold out. Don’t tell yourself you’ll never do it. Just don’t do it this one time. Then the next one. Then another just one time.
It’ll become a habit.
I’m really hoping this is where Joe’s storyline goes from here.
Isn’t a well like a couple of years in our time.
Two things:
1) In light of @Cerberus’s comments, how the fuck did Western society (at least) survive for so long on all these maladaptive, oppressive coping strategies? boggles the mind…
2) Does Joe work out, or is that all fat and/or inborn?
inborn physique
Western society pretty much only survived because it was too scared to die.
I think it comes from the desire to create cultures based on what one is not.
Like, it comes from a desire to explain masculinity as “avoiding the feminine”, define “whiteness” as “not being PoC”, and so on. It creates this angry need to seek out any behavior that is not being expressed by the marginalized and to resent marginalized participation in spaces of interests.
Plus, us not being nomads allows a lot of hierarchal bullshit, because it allows a stability that can survive deeply oppressing a portion of your population.
1. Those strategies worked “well enough”, at least by the standards of those who benefited from them. People can (and do) think and talk about ways that things might be better, but in general, there’s only widespread change when the situation changes enough that the strategies don’t anymore.
My best guess is that Western society was, by and large, too busy trying to survive to have to wonder or even bother about such esoteric niceties
Like how long has it been in the west that we’ve had, for the most part, a guaranteed food supply, housing, education etc etc so with all those things we can now concentrate on other stuff
Or not
Largely because these “maladaptive oppressive coping strategies” tend to work damn well for those at the top of the pile.
Nor are they limited, at least in broad strokes, to Western societies.
that’s why I said “at least”. I admit my phrasing was unclear though
She looks familiar somehow.
Since people have wondered: IU has over 49,000 students, 39,000 of whom are undergrads. So likely over 20,000 female undergrads.
Yay Joe! Self awareness is an awesome thing. And the fact you value Joyce’s opinions enough that you are listening to what she said. Here’s hoping it lasts.
I feel like this person should be named Danielle…am I the only person tho thought she looked a lot like Danny…?
Alternatively, Joe might decide to give men a try, on the grounds that he already treats them like people, thereby disrupting the nascent romance between Danny and Ethan. If he went after Danny, Ethan would be tragically left behind, leading to Joyce learning how Joe stole the guy Ethan wanted, and hilarity ensues. If he went after Ethan, Danny would be forced to compete against Joe’s ruggedness armed only with a ukulele and a new hat, and Joe would suffer the realization that he had just unintentionally become the WORST WINGMAN EVER. Hilarity ensues.
I’m not sure Joe would know how to treat men like people either. Its just that his objectification of men is more passive and less intrusive. Mostly because he has little interest in them.
Oooh, is Joe wearing a new shirt? I don’t think I’ve seen this one.
…I…. am starting to realize I focus on Joe’s chest perhaps more than I should.
That’s the plan, baby
well I learned you can’t put joke html tags in this comment system now.
That was supposed to say “That’s the plan, baby “
The self-loathing is strong in this one.
So, I’ve just notice…
http://www.comic-rocket.com/read/its-pregnancy/22
So, cool, neat! Same artist/author!
But seriously, is this a prequel?
Dumbing of Age is a reboot featuring the casts of David Willis’s previous comics, Roomies, It’s Walky, and Shortpacked. Joyce and Walky were the ‘alpha couple’ in that continuity, and It’s Pregnancy was written while Willis’s wife was pregnant because pregnancy comics wouldn’t exactly fit into Dumbing of Age. DoA is a new continuity, character relationships and backstories range from nearly the same to totally different.
Neat!