I hate that bloody song with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns, but I can’t articulate why. The rest of Breakfast in America is fine. (Plus it gave us the “Supertramp did 9/11” joke.)
After someone has repeatedly and consistently sexually harassed me in nearly every interaction we’ve ever had, the onus is not fucking on me to accept them just because they say they’ve changed this time, honest. In fact, even if they HAVE changed, I am not required to ever forgive them or want to be around them in the future. That’s just how it is. Sometimes you don’t get a second chance.
If you’re trying to be a better person so people will like you and not because you want to stop hurting those around you then you have in fact missed the entire point of being a good person.
Eh, teleological vs deontological ethics. I’d prefer somebody was nice to me for selfish reasons, rather than mistreat me for well-meaning reasons.
The entire point of being a good person is so that other people are better off. If other people are better off, why should we care what started that chain of events, assuming it doesn’t have any negative externalities associated?
someone on a different website mentioned that they didn’t have mirroring empathy, but after hitting adulthood they decided that even though tearing people down could be fun, it was much more pleasant overall to build them up and keep them around as friends. this person gave excellent advice and wasn’t prey to a lot of the knee-jerk responses to emotional signaling, so they were pretty immune to some narcissist-type shit and could give really good help to people, but i couldn’t shake the fear that they might turn on me if it ever became more entertaining than building me up or ignoring me.
which really wasn’t fair to them, i’m 95% sure. but. when someone’s rationale for doing helpful or not-harmful things is blatantly ‘i like the way the results benefit me personally’ i’m always gonna be worried that someday they won’t get the feedback they want, or harming people will offer a greater reward, so they’ll stop doing those nice things. basically i’m worried their behaviour could change at any moment, and then i’ll have left myself vulnerable to a close predator :I
and i guess any other motive for ‘being a good person’ could also be nullified by changing circumstances, but i guess i’m unusually anxious about my humanity no longer being in someone else’s best interests, and that being enough reason to drop the ‘enlightened’ part of enlightened self-interest
What exactly is failing to work here, Shiro? Sarah’s first response wasn’t “No Joe, don’t you dare talk to me”, nor anything like it.
She got upset because he revealed how much he knew about PUA tricks, and lashed out. His evidence, while kinda repugnant, was valid evidence for him telling the truth about knowing her name.
Sarah didn’t try anything in this interaction, and if this was trying from a previous interaction, it wouldn’t have started as non-aggressively as it did.
Sarah was reminded that Joe is a shitty person, but he was no shittier to her at the end of the conversation than the start.
Honestly, revealing PUA tricks is the kind of move that, unless done specifically to get someone’s guard lowered, is a reasonably respectable move, since it effectively disarms him. Punishing that behavior is counterproductive.
I’m chalking this one up as Sarah being angry moreso than Joe being a horrible person. (That said, Sarah has plenty of reason to be angry, as a woman of color, and Joe is still mostly a horrible person, but nonetheless, it doesn’t change the specifics of this interaction.)
Having read more of your comments lower down in the thread, I will say that I agree their past interactions make it understandable why Sarah responded as she did. I still feel like her negative response was triggered by the wrong part of the conversation to be strictly validated as part of her previous dislike of him, but it’s not a big enough point to get into an argument with you about.
That’s an awfully nitpicky concession, but I will accept it nonetheless. History matters, context matters, and if some dude has (like I said above) repeatedly and consistently sexually harassed me nearly every time we’ve ever interacted, I am going to do my damnedest to make sure that doesn’t happen again.
if not most of them to some extent, because of the “can you squeak us a little song?” line. But *yes,* I will happily adopt this into my headcanon, it makes perfect sense.
Could be. On the other hand, he has ridiculous ideas about manliness, and some men who can pull off the whole falsetto thing don’t because they feel it’s effeminate…
I have been hearing a snippet of that song multiple times a day for weeks because the show Wheeler Dealers is coming back with a new cast member to replace long-time mechanic Edd China.
Since she doesn’t buy his redemption (which is still a very early work in progress, btw), and Joe had demonstrated that he was bad at taking the hint when told to fuck off, it’s a completely reasonable reaction.
Plus there’s also how every woman on campus (including Sarah) knows how creepy and elaborate that list of his was, giving her even more reason to want him to fuck off.
The first time she met him, she was all but invisible to him because, as she discovered the second time she met him, he was focused on getting Joyce into a position where he could “fix” her…with his penis. The third time she met him, he was with his dad, aka “Joe with a beard,” and Joe’s dad…hit on her, within seconds of meeting her.
The fourth time she met him, he was both skeevy and insulting to her…and to Joyce and Dorothy, who were sitting on either side of her. The fifth time, he blurted out an unprompted boner update while acknowledging that “she’s, like, already rebuffed my advances so I won’t casually mention that I have access to a sex sling.”
We’ve seen…more positive? that doesn’t seem right…um, less toxic aspects of Joe. Sarah has only seen the aspects of him that warn her to look around for a baseball bat.
Keep in mind that one of those Joe/Sarah encounters, it was Sarah who (along with Joyce) took the initiative and inserted themselves uninvited into Joe and Jacob’s dinner plans. (I should also point out that the 2 of them actually exchanged some civil pleasantries after the meal, with her even calling him ‘Hon’.)
That link shows the ONE sentence Sarah directed at Joe the entire time, from sitting down to the walk home. That she’s able to be civil doesn’t seem to contradict her disliking him.
It may have been Joyce’s idea, but Sarah still went along with it.
There have been some people that I’ve really disliked in the past… Bullies, people that have stolen from me, etc. I would never ever consider sitting down for a meal with them, regardless of who wanted me to. Sarah could have taken the same stance…. could have told Joyce “You can stay, but I’m leaving.”
She went along with it because Jacob was there, and/or she didn’t hate Joe enough that she couldn’t be civil for a while. That’s hardly a ringing endorsement of Joe, especially since she spent the entire meal NOT talking to or looking at him.
Besides, there are levels of hate and dislike that fall short of hating him so much that just sitting near them during a meal is too much to bear.
More like, “I don’t trust you to approach me and will respond negatively to such actions. My dislike of you is not a deciding factor in other interactions I may seek out or even when put in a situation with you. I still do not trust you to approach me.”
She STILL didn’t want anything to do with him. She didn’t want to do anything that time – Joyce dragged her into it so she could talk to Jacob and Joe happened to be Jacob adjacent.
Not, really? You make it sound like they barged into Joe’s house and made him cook for them.
One pair of students joined another pair where everyone was already acquainted with each other, in a public restaurant. Once Joyce had so excitedly suggested they join them, and neither Jacob or Joe objected, Sarah joining them as well was the expected thing. NOT joining them would meant ditching Joyce, or making a fuss and dragging her away from them when she was so enthusiastic.
The path of least resistance was to sit down and avoid talking to him. Which she did.
What she wants from Joe is pretty damn clear, and perfectly consistent with that. She doesn’t want to talk to or interact with Joe ever again. Unfortunately, Joe and Sarah have overlapping social circles, so situations where they are in the same room or even at the same table will likely come up.
She seems to be making it clear that while she’s accepted that they’ll see each other because of their mutual friendships with Joyce and Jacob, she and Joe are very explicitly NOT friends, and she doesn’t want to have to interact with him any more than absolutely necessary.
I’m not saying that she’s sending mixed messages regarding sexual interest in Joe. What I’m saying is that its a mixed message between between “Don’t acknowledge me at all” and “I’m going to force myself into a private dinner that you are having”. (Or does voluntarily sitting down uninvited into someone’s private time not count as acknowledgement? Did she think she was somehow invisible when she sat at the table?)
Okay, what you were intending to say was not at all clear from your initial post, but I can see your point now that you’ve clarified. Of course, Sarah’s stance could have changed or intensified since then, and there’s not the factor of Jacob being present anymore.
If that meal happened AFTER she’d told him this, that would seem more contradictory.
Since time only goes in the one direction, it would seem that Sarah’s opinion of Joe has gotten even worse, probably from having seen his a Do List and/or that the guy who tried to assault her roommate recently tracked her down and would’ve tried to maim her if someone else hadn’t done it to him first. I really doubt either one increased her tolerance for Joe at all
+1.
I can easily imagine that her opinion of Joe got even worse when she saw herself on his Do List as an Angry [Black] Roommate, and she sees that the list scares Joyce, AND she wonders if it might have helped lead Ryan to Joyce…
These are all really solid reasons for Sarah to decide that his actions are harmful, and she should curtail future interactions with him, as clearly as humanly possible.
Sarah is walking down the hall on her way somewhere, and in no way in dire need of some dude with a creepy list either trying a new angle to get in her pants, or to dump his emotional baggage on her.
Is Joe owed even the slightest pause, or the benefit of a doubt? (hint: he is not)
No, Joe isn’t due a pause. That doesn’t mean Sarah isn’t being a tad awful by screaming at him. But then again, Sarah doesn’t seem to give any indication of caring for people outside her friend group and the people she lusts after, so it’s not out of character for her.
Danny made a good point that the encryption and protection was probably good a couple of years ago. Also, given that Joe gives out access to the favoured few, it could literally be anyone in his extended social circle.
Personally, I think it’s one of Ryan’s group, possibly as a ‘reprisal’ for Ryan’s hospitalisation.
Though Joe giving out access like candy kind of makes the “security” irrelevant.
With few exceptions, if you’ve even heard that he has an actual list, you’ve been offered access.
We didn’t. Joe and Danny dropped the search since there was no fixing the fact it was out, and Joe instead opted to give out apology doughnuts.
Though not many of the girls on the floor seem to have a proper motive. Joyce, Billy, Sarah, Dorothy, Ruth, Amber, Becky, Sal and Dina obviously weren’t the ones, Sierra, Mandy, Agatha, Grace, and Other Rachel don’t seem too malicious. Rachel denied it and while she could be lying, she doesn’t seem like she was lying about it to me. It’s been pointed out it doesn’t seem like Mary to do this. Carla may act like a ass, but I can’t see any reason for her to benefit from this…..
Did we consider Roz? We haven’t seen her since May and last we saw her she was annoyed at Joe, even telling him not to rank women.
It could have been a guy too, but the cast is more girls to guys. And none of the guys seem dickish enough to do it. Ethan, Jacob, Walky, and Danny all didn’t seem to do it, which only leaves one person: Mike. And last time he and Joe were even in the same strip together was 2012. Though I wouldn’t put it past Mike to do this.
2) We know from the way her ‘clique’ interacted with Sarah/Dina in the past that she can be a, shall we say, ‘negative’ person (insulting to Sarah, without considering her side of things; condescending to Dina, etc.)
3) Although she supposedly is OK with Jacob hanging out with other people, she may actually try to sabotage Joe as a way to isolate Jacob
Joe told everybody he had a “do” list, including Raidah, whom he barely knew at the time. It was an RSS feed and its entire purpose was to advertise his sexual appraisal of women to a wider audience.
Joe’s “do” list was about as private as the Eiffel Tower with a giant sheet over it. Who leaked it? No matter who ultimately distributed the URL and the password, when you get down to it, Joe leaked the list. More or less intentionally.
Haven’t Joe and Sarah interacted before, however minimally? Like yeah he had a list and it was dehumanizing and sucked, but it’s not like he’s a stranger accosting Sarah. They know each other.
There were moments where I’d say it was pretty clear they could have gotten along very well or even become friends, if only Joe could’ve kept his boner updates to himself after the second or third time. She seems pretty done with him now, though.
Yeah, she’s enforced her boundaries and he’s repeatedly stepped over them and even now he’s stopped what she’s doing to perform his “atonement duties”. This was going to be the consequence of that and how he bounces back from this will show a lot of his character and growth.
Even now, they could probably interact in groups, as long as he stops with the boner updates. Let that go on long enough, she might even change her opinion.
But until such time, she’s going to assume he’s being a creep when he accosts her. And react appropriately.
A stranger wouldn’t have gotten such a strong reaction. A stranger would have gotten ‘piss off’ and maybe ‘what is wrong with you?’
This is the reaction of somebody who’s repeatedly had their boundaries disrespected, their desires ignored, and their sense of safety chipped at by this person.
I have to say I differ greatly on my perception of Ron and Hermione. I think they were good together, though if you’re only basing it on the movies I can see your point more.
As someone who started reading Nukees long before I discovered the Willisverses, I am trying to imagine a Nukees character whom you, Reltzik, would be happy with as your gravatar…King Luca, maybe? Probably just projection on my part.
Instant nostalgia for us readers, instant nostalgia-and-heartburn for oh so many webcomic creators: “Keenspot.”
I was at a training to night, and we had a break, so I went upstairs to the bathroom, and when I came back other people were in the middle of discussion medical transitions, with this one woman going, “But they’re preforming surgery on eleven and twelve year olds!” and everything for her kept coming back to that, and I have no idea how this topic of conversation was even arrived at, but man was it weird.
When I questioned her source of information of these claims, she admitted to not being sure of it. I tried to explain what I saw actually happening with various people of various ages I’ve known, but I got cut off because the instructor was more interested in hearing what this one girl who’s a med student had to say about it. (She was basically saying the same thing I was, and nothing against her, she’s very nice and asked my pronouns on the first day and all; I was just annoyed at being cut off.)
Seriously. And she seems…like, I don’t really like her, but her stance towards trans people in general seems fine? And even in this conversation she was saying she was fine with hormone therapy at that age, but she was so sure these surgeries were happening, that people were pushing for them to be common. I wondered afterward if maybe she read something that conflated surgeries on intersex people (which is a whole other topic to address) with trans youth? I’ll probably talk about it with her more next session.
Nah, it’s the big propaganda push from TERFs, arguing that trans people are trying to push surgeries on kids and arguing that that’s what “gender affirmation” means. So a school or a parent letting a kid use the pronouns they prefer and dress in a way they like gets reported instead as a kid getting genital surgeries forced on them by evil trans forces.
And it’s in a lot of major newspapers. The BBC, the Guardian, the New York Times, New York magazine, among others have all had a number of articles from known TERFs selling this lie in order to justify discriminatory laws against trans kids.
I’ve run into this bullshit a lot being a trans teacher trying to get resources and support to trans kids.
Either way I assume whatever she was reading was TERF propaganda, designed to purposefully mislead. She already works with vulnerable populations, and if she completes this training she’s going to add to that, so I really want to do what I can to educate her and deconstruct these myths.
Also, the instructor, while seeming surprisingly good overall (saying things to her like, “They don’t have these surgeries just for the fun of it; they have them because that’s who they are.”) he conflated gender and sexuality, which was kind of confusing at times. Basically it was an unexpected conversation to walk back to.
Sounds like the kind of conversation you never find out how it actually started because nobody knows.
The whole operation stuff in being trans is part of what freaks people out who have a certain flavor of eco-feministic mindset which has a strange combination of myths about female superiority, the ‘natural’ state of things and a huge mistrust in technology and medicine.
I remember the mind-set seemed to make sense to me in the late 1980ties. Though how this evolved in the aggression against trans persons you describe as common is totally beyond me. Even then, I would only have been a bongo about women’s spaces, not trans existence itself, though this distinction might not have made sense to anyone trans as I can see now.
Feminists going out of their way to attack trans people’s right to exist at all don’t make any sense to me at all. It’s like the whole bathroom story (there’s a door behind which everyone does their business alone, so wtf?). Some do but I fail to understand why (especially now where the currents potus is a real threat to everyone’s wellbeing).
I cannot think of any other voluntary operation that would have as much impact on a life (that at this time was not the stuff of fantasy/science fiction). So I understand the freakout at the idea of children/early teens having such an operation. A rumour maliciously spread. Tactics like that are abominable.
The thing is, they don’t really have freakouts about ‘children having that sort of operations’…they would consider it a good thing that intersex children are often operated on to give them unambiguous genitals, even if they’re not the right ones by the otherwise all-powerful genetics. (And if they’re the wrong ones by the child’s identity, in a few years when they’re able to articulate it? Who cares!)
Though I believe there are those who do that, this attitude doesn’t match with the mindset I described above. The body being naturally that way, there wouldn’t be a reason to operate.
She could also be getting her misinformation from “The American COLLEGE of Pediatricians.” Wiki calls them a “socially conservative advocacy group” and says they only have about 500 members. Their raison d’être is “the gays are icky” bit they have branched out and now also distribute lies attacking trans children. Their name, of course, is intended to trick people into confusing them with the American ACADEMY of Pediatrics, which is a professional association (with about 65,000 members) rather than an advocacy group. The American Academy of Pediatrics “stands in support of transgender children and adults, and condemns attempts to stigmatize or marginalize them.”
Last year, the American Academy of Pediatrics joined with The American College of Osteopathic Pediatricians (the official pediatric organization of the American Osteopathic Association — for pediatricians who are D.O.s rather than M.D.s) and the Human Rights Campaign to publish a document titled “Supporting and Caring for Transgender Children.” Here are a few helpful excerpts:
“Gender transition is an umbrella term for the steps a transgender person and their community take to affirm their gender identity. Depending on the person’s age and their individual needs, these steps can include social, medical, surgical and legal changes. For children who have not reached puberty, medical interventions are not part of transition. At this stage, their transition process only includes “‘social transition.’”
“Despite the emphasis on medical care in media reports on transgender adults, gender transition for children who have not reached puberty is entirely a social process. The steps a family and community take to affirm a child’s gender identity are called social transition. Social transition is completely reversible if the child determines it’s not right for them.”
“For children, pre-adolescents and early adolescents, gender transition is mainly a social process. Children beginning puberty may also use puberty-suppressing medication as they explore their gender identity. Both of these steps are completely reversible.
Social transition is equally important for adults and older adolescents. People in these age groups may also take additional steps, including gender-affirming hormone therapy and surgeries.
Transgender people also often change their legal name and the gender recorded on identity documents, like a driver’s license, birth certificate or passport. These steps can happen at any stage in transition, although some states require certain types of medical treatment before allowing gender marker changes.”
Another good resource is the AAP’s Section on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Health and Wellness. “The SOLGBTHW of the American Academy of Pediatrics is a group of pediatricians and other health providers interested in LGBT health and wellness.”
I hope she’s got just as much venom for the doctors who rebuilt my broken arm out of screws and pins when I was four years old… but as we all know, it’s not really about the surgery, or even the age. It’s about refusing to learn about the humanity of those different from you.
I have been forced to resort to such messages as “I am not interested. I will never be interested. You disgust me. Nothing you can say will ever give you a chance with me. Nothing you have said is in the least bit appealing. You have no chance with me ever, even in a million years. If all humans except you and I were wiped from the Earth, I would prefer my left hand to you, and I’m right-handed.” before with particularly persistent dudes. This strip does not seem out of proportion in the least to me.
I had one guy, who wasn’t hitting on me, but was way too touchy. When I said I didn’t like being touched, at first he listened, but then he fell back into touching me– arm, shoulder, leg– regularly. So I asked for him to stop again. Same thing.
What finally worked was me saying to him, “If you touch me again, I will start screaming. I will not stop screaming until you stop touching me. If someone asks why I was screaming, I will explain to them. I can scream very loudly; would you like to hear a demonstration?”
All well and good, but after you spend all your time telling someone “I’m not interested”, do you then go and invite yourself to sit with that person when they’re having a private dinner? Because that would definitely send mixed messages.
Ugh, no offense, but that would not be an example of a mixed message. A mixed message would be if she had in that moment, begged him to take her, not politely occupying the same general location as him.
Like, I don’t mean to be bothered by that, but there’s so many men in the real world who really do believe “agrees to be in the same general location as you” as consent to be harassed or assaulted and it gets frustrating sometimes.
Not saying that the ‘mixed message’ was that Sarah was actually interested in Joyce as a sexual partner.
What I’m saying is that its a mixed message between “I don’t want to have anything to do with you” and “I will play a part in forcing myself into the middle of of a private dinner that you happen to be having”.
Except she didn’t force her way into a private dinner. Joyce did and forced her to participate. And Joe understood that, because he recognized the game Joyce was playing and how fucked up it was and was trying to stop her.
They had one civil exchange both expressing dismay at Joyce and Jacob being cutesy together, but beyond that, she seemed to generally avoid his existence.
And during that, Joe revealed that he’s still sexually obsessed with her and still wants to sleep with her and stated in that context that he has a sex swing.
Like, having basic civility with a person you don’t trust because a friend wants to sit with them is not at all a mixed message, as Sarah’s body language has been pretty clearly “just leave me alone, Joe” for a long while with him.
They certainly do not have a friendly relationship where it is okay to demand emotional labor from her or to assume an intimacy they have not built.
Like, let me put it this way, women are under tremendous pressure to always smile and nod and be civil to folks who have wronged us or who we don’t trust or want to be alone with.
Us doing that does not mean that we are sending mixed messages or have forgiven the individual in question or would be okay with them approaching us in a different context as if we were friends.
I have had to sit and be friendly with people I have loathed, who have dumped bigotry on me, have hurt friends of mine, have made inappropriate comments about my body and sexuality. It doesn’t mean I want them being buddy-buddy and demanding a conversation about feelings. And if they tried that shit, I’d feel a strong temptation to explode like Sarah does here as well.
It was Joyce’s idea, but Sarah still went along with it. Is Joyce some sort of wizard that can cast a mind control spell on Sarah? Was Sarah suffering from sort of temporary insanity?
At any time, Sarah could have left. She could have told Joyce “No, I dislike Joe too much to join them”. She could have faked an illness. She could have lied and said “Don’t worry I have a better plan to get Jacob”. She had options, and the option she took was “I’m going to be an uninvited guest at their dinner, in a way that means I will be interacting with Joe for a significant length of time”.
I hope Cerb doesn’t mind if I highlight a bit of her previous message that already clearly and concisely stated why that happened:
Like, let me put it this way, women are under tremendous pressure to always smile and nod and be civil to folks who have wronged us or who we don’t trust or want to be alone with.
Us doing that does not mean that we are sending mixed messages or have forgiven the individual in question or would be okay with them approaching us in a different context as if we were friends.
And yes, again, women are under extreme pressure to play nice and be civil. Especially when they are in the presence of someone they have a massive crush on and know that having an outburst or running away would lead to a scene that would end with her being seen negatively by others including her crush.
A reminder that I have extensive experience maintaining base level civility with people I’ve had very good reason to loathe and would have no interest in a more friendly connection with simply because it would be making a scene to blow up on them.
I would be very bothered to know that those people were using that civility to assume a closer relationship and ask for an increased level of intimacy.
Additionally, Sarah failing to set a boundary then does *not* mean she waives the right to set future boundaries. People are allowed to go from “yes” to “no”.
People are indeed allowed to go from a Yes to a No. In this case, Sarah went a much shorter distance, from ‘I’m here but it wasn’t my idea and I’m obviously super uncomfortable about it” to “No”.
I mean…no? That doesn’t seem like a incident that would send mixed messages on the “are you interested” scale at all. Now, if you had said it would send mixed messages in the way of “I can tolerate you as a human being,” then I could maybe see it sending mixed messages when Sarah’s overall stance is a “NOPE” on that.
Keep in mind that in the first panel in the comic, Sarah is not just saying “I’m not interested in you sexually”, she’s going further and saying “Don’t acknowledge me at all”. Her willingly inserting herself uninvited into Joe and Jacob’s dinner (even if it wasn’t her idea, she still participated) certainly contradicts the “don’t acknowledge me” statement she made.
Okay, it’s just that that’s not what you said. You said “telling someone “I’m not interested”…then go and … would definitely send mixed messages.”
Like I said, if you had made your statement on it being mixed messages about willingness to interact with him, then I could see where you’re coming from; it’s just, that’s not what you said.
Sorry, perhaps I should have been more percise. I thought the context was clear, based on the posting by the other reader (i.e. how Sarah’s reaction was extreme) and Sarah’s reaction wasn’t just a rejection of sexual interest but of Joe’s entire humanity/existence.
Well, plus your comment was posted in response to Shiro’s post, which definitely makes it seem more about the “interested in” aspect. But yeah, I agree more with what Cerb said upthread, but at least the point you’re making is better than what it originally seemed.
“…wasn’t just a rejection of sexual interest but of Joe’s entire humanity/exist”
I feel like there’s something important about the way you phrased that.
… Oh. I checked the wording, and she tells Joe not to acknowledge *her* existence. But it sounds like you’ve interpreted that as an attack on *Joe’s* existence and even humanity? :/
Joe’s past interactions with Sarah have almost all been circumstances where he’s ignored her consent. Hitting on her and ignoring her negative body language until she had no resort but to scream at him to lay off. Still trying to hit on her after that. And again. And at the latest interaction, exploited a simple talking moment to hint, hint nudge nudge about owning a sex swing.
Sarah has not seen Joe’s growth. She doesn’t even know Joyce has been in contact with him. All she knows is that she’s had her creep radar on him for awhile and now he’s been proven to be PUA bad news (to her eyes) and he’s still trying to approach her while she’s just minding her own business and demanding intensive social interaction and emotional labor on her part.
There is no reason why she should feel obligated to be kind to him and charitable other than the social pressure we put on women to be overly forgiving to fuckupery, and absorb unpaid emotional labor at their own expense or safety.
Sarah’s actions feel harsh because we, unlike her, have seen that Joe’s intentions are actually benign and he does want to grow and because we expect women in fiction to fulfill the role of helper for a man’s growth, rather than rejecting his attempt to improve for her own safety.
But it’s not. It’s wholly rational and an absolute fair boundary to set. She doesn’t trust him. She thinks him dangerous and she’s done with him approaching her out of nowhere. There’s no reason she knows to give him the benefit of the doubt and if we didn’t trust Joe to continue on a path of redemption, Sarah would end up being in danger trying to trust in someone like Joe’s “sob story of redemption” from “all the girls being mean to him”.*
*I’m thinking a lot about the recent article that came out pointing out how the hate movement that ruined gaming was run by literal nazis and were aided by a lot of faux-feminist men. And some of those men tried desperately to play penitent after it was revealed they had done severe harm to the folks targeted by the hate movement and tried to pretend they had apologized to their direct victims and so on… In another story, Joe is those men, trying to say whatever he could to get back “in” and continue to abuse.
But I trust him to be better. I believe in him.
Panel 2: And this is a very important moment. He’s been cursed out by a woman. His normal response to that is to immediately go on the victim blaming, yelling at her that she’s not allowed to feel unsafe around him and that she’s just overreacting. He did it to Joyce, to Sarah, even to Dorothy to a degree.
But here? He swallows his pride and just says he’s sorry. No pursuit, no anger, no attempt to demand satisfaction. Just letting it go and accepting her desire for him to leave her alone.
This is the real major growth moment for Joe. This is the sign of hope that he will climb his way out of the toxic pit he fell down and be a man worthy of the trust he craves.
Panels 3-5: Walky is absolutely justified in getting the boot in here a little bit after the shit Joe pulled on Dorothy.
And I’d like to imagine he has an excellent singing voice.
And of course, even with people she DOESN’T actively dislike and actively have to be on the defense towards, Sarah has no desire to stop whatever she is doing to talk about feelings.
Even if she knew perfectly every step of Joe’s journey, she has no reason to answer anything other than “Good for you, text Joyce if you want to talk about feelings. I’m out of here.”
But Joe’s apology and backing of in panel 1 and 2 are genuine and good.
You are a much, much more patient and accommodating person than I am. The amount of fundamental misunderstanding of Joe and Sarah’s past interactions over the past couple days is plucking my last nerve.
And part of atonement and growth is accepting those consequences. So many people seem to think that apologizing is a process by which we avoid consequences; something we do instead of facing consequences. I can almost hear myself whining “But I said I was sorry!” right before my dad put my playstation in his closet. Joe’s acceptance of those consequences and that “sorry” isn’t going to magically fix it all is a great moment of growth.
Still, I’m a little worried that he sees the consequences of his actions as being “cut off” rather than hurting people, destroying trust, and ruining potential future relationships. But he’s getting there.
Atonement is valuable, but it doesn’t mean hurt never occurred or that people owe you aid and absolution. What has happened has happened. The value of atonement and self-improvement is ensuring it never happens again.
The second panel does definitely give hope that Joe might actually be able to change his ways. This strip shows in a concrete way that just because you have admitted your mistakes and are trying to change, not everyone is going to forgive you your earlier actions (and that’s their right) or praise you for not acting like a creepy stalker anymore (which should anyway be like the most basic bar on human interaction and showing respect to other people, not really something worth complimenting in the first place). In short, actions have consequences. Even if you are sorry and regret those actions later.
And panel 2 Joe seems to be ready to accept those consequences. It is a remarkably different reaction from before when someone has gotten angry with him, not getting defensive or blaming the other for “overreacting”. Just a simple “I’m sorry”. Which is very nice to see and it makes me hopeful for the future 🙂 Though the process will probably still be slow and he might take some backsteps. But still, he has potential, has realized how his actions have affected other people (thank you Joyce) and has shown willingness to change. So I think he will get there.
Oh and btw, could you tell which article about gaming are you referring to? I tried googling a little but didn’t come up with anything relevant posted recently.
CERBERUS! I have missed you so. I’m so sorry I’ve been MIA. It’s a long story. How are you? I’m so very behind and I hope all is well. How’s you’re fiance, girlfriend, and job? Please tell me the job is still going well. So much can happen in two months 🙁
I’m doing okay. Job is excellent and I’m getting really good reviews from colleagues, admin, parents, and students and my girlfriend is awesome.
My finacee kind of turned out to be super abusive and kind of sort of preyed on many of my worst fears while doing it.
But hey, their number is blocked now and I’m free and I’m doing way better than I thought I’d be doing though I’m still processing how I was so blind to so many red-flags.
I’m so happy that your job is going well and your girlfriend is awesome! Sorry about the ex. I’m glad the wedding got postponed so at least yall weren’t married. And as a fellow red flag misser, it happens.
I’m doing well. My arm is healing at a much faster pace than average which is good. Starting therapy next week. I’ve got a lot of movement back, but it’s still slow going and I still haven’t got most of the feeling back. I have two long scars from my wrist down to my elbow. My best friend said it’s good tattoo material. She also bought me theraputty to help with my grip. I don’t know what I would do without her. She’s amazing.
I’m slowly becoming friends with a local woman. She has her flaws and we got in a huge fight early one, but she was the only person to visit me in the hospital besides dad. My family didn’t care. It was a real gut punch… anyway, we have started bonding over both having mild OCD and she’s become less judgemental about me.
One day we had a long talk about trans and gender identity. It was something she had never known existed before and to my surprise she was very accepting and supportive of it and those who are trans or non binary. It was amazing and I had to give her props for it.
She trusts me around her kids. They adore me and sometimes ask to come to my house XD
We have a TV night where we sit around enjoying junk food, talking, and watching Hulu. I’ve got her into the show Lucifer. I expected her to hate it because of the religious undertones, but she loves it.
She even remembered my birthday. It’s Saturday, but she surprised me early. She brought me my favorite snacks, a new set of sheets in my favorite color, and strawberry cupcakes. I nearly cried. You see; this is my third birthday without my Mamaw. She always made me a strawberry cake for my birthday. She never forget. And my new friend remembered the story. I can’t describe what it feels like to know someone listens and cares.
My cat Danny is doing well. He’s growing and very spoiled. He loves to visit my dad’s and play with his pets.
Dad is dad. Sometimes he’s kind. Sometimes he rips me a new one. He recently told me he wished he had left me in the nut house and let the government have me because all I do is stress him out and that he was the only family I had left because the rest didn’t give a damp about me so I better act right around him and not use him. I curled up in my bed and didn’t get up save to go to the bathroom for a day or two after that…
I’ve really gotten into Undertale lately. I’m dressing up as a human gender flip Sans for a Halloween thing I’m going to. I’m also using my passion to try and practice writing. I figured the best way to cut my teeth was on fan fiction. I might never finish it much less post it, but it’s really good practice.
I’m glad you are feeling healthier and are doing better and I’m glad you made a new friend who’s being awesome and supporting you.
ALSO HAPPY EARLY BIRTHDAY!
With the dad, all I can say is assholes who can’t support you as you are and who would use moments of vulnerability against you are not worth paying attention to. His bullshit is his bullshit and it’s allowed to hurt but it doesn’t mean he is right about a single thing about you.
You are awesome and you will survive this bullshit.
Thanks so much! And I love how you put things. He still knows how to gut punch me, but I can usually take it. Sometimes though, he catches me on an off day.
Oh! And I’m getting treatment for PMDD. It’s helping. 🙂
Yeah. I’m really happy. And oh my god I can’t wait until you play it! You expect it not to be much because the graphics, but the story is so good. Just don’t play genocide. At least your first few play throughs.
I used that song once for a high school multimedia project about Holden Caulfield… In retrospect maybe not such a good idea because I just noticed the line “and making love was just for fun”. Idk anymore.
Oh. You’re talking about appropriateness of sex references. That didn’t cross my mind at all, but my teacher didn’t care either about sex references. I meant that the song’s narrator seems a lot older with that line. Like a lot older than Holden’s age. Although I guess no song can be a super perfect fit.
Ah. See, that’s not the line that would make me think that as much as, you know, “when I was young.” But still, I’d say it’s more how you connected the song to the theme, or at least implied it if you didn’t do so explicitly.
I love how into it Walky is in the last panel with his arms raised belting it out… the only way to improve on it is if he were outside, and it was raining, and he had dropped to his knees.
Sarah’s rebuttal is nothing more than the excessive point of viewpoint because she literally thinks that Joe is a male genital with a half of a brain. It doesn’t help that the fact that Joe shows this all the time, but basically screaming at him to go shove off isn’t helping anyone’s situation.
Of course this usually goes into the whole debate that whether or not should a person feel guarded with a person who’s experience in dating. Bonus points if it’s a gender situation. I’m going with the karma’s been placed on Joe, despite him being actually a person of color and being jewish surprisingly but yeah all of the shit that’s coming towards the son of a gun is actually well-deserved.
You look at girls in a crappy way, and well whaddya know? You get trampled on by them. But also as a person who favors male and female I can’t really get mad at Joe for just being who he is. If I got mad at every person who wants to have sex, I’ll be here for a while in fact. But it’s not just that kinda area, Joe’s list was descriptive, misogynistic, and by all means not something that a guy should strive for into being. You can like sex. But you can’t slather your item of attraction with a large tongue and expect things to be in the right state of mind towards everyone’s approval. Because guess what there Archie my boy, this ain’t the 1950s at the sockhop here.
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“can’t crush my face… allll by mysellllf”
Happy Triskaidecaphobia Day!
A-actually… you can crush your face all by yourself… you just have to want it hard enough.
Why October?
Because October is awesome. 😀
And when it’s Friday the 13th… IN OCTOBER… it’s something special.
NO NO NO NO!!
You either CRUSH THE HEAD *pinches fingers vertically*
Or you SQUISH THE FACE *pinches fingers horizontally*
Get it right!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBlPy0byK8
Walky will talk about feelings with you, Joe.
Right now he feels like he needs to poop. And he’ll gladly talk about it! At length!
And in excruciating detail.
Extrudiating detail, huh?
He’s bound by deep deut(er)y to let it all out about this feeling.
Walky— 🙂
Joe— >:(
Next comic: the truck driver makes his return
http://www.dumbingofage.com/tag/definitely-that-same-truck-driver-dude-as-in-roomies/
Truck-kun goes everywhere.
Act with integrity….no regrets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21z-K5ChWbE
Walky seems to have a knack for singing songs about and to lonely people who then retaliate physically.
What were these previous instances by which Sir Reginald graced us with his dulcet tones?
He sang Desperado to Sal. Which is why she inwardly facepalmed when Danny did.
Now I get that bit with Danny’s uke and Sal.
I just wish I could find that first strip with Walky.
Sal took even greater exception, shown here. Walky is fully committed to the bit, which I love.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/eagles/
I know that song, and trying to hum it to myself is impossible because that first line immediately puts The Logical Song in my head.
Now watch what you say or they’ll be calling you a radical,
Liberal, fanatical, criminal.
Well, I am feeling like a criminal. Anyone know of a good defense?
The questions run too deep….
How about a good offence?
I hate that bloody song with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns, but I can’t articulate why. The rest of Breakfast in America is fine. (Plus it gave us the “Supertramp did 9/11” joke.)
When YOU were young, and your heart was an open book…
Y’all are welcome.
That was a little excessive, Sarah. But I understand.
Hey, when nothing else works, you sometimes get a little dramatic.
Reactions like that convince people that it’s not worth even trying to change because you’ll be hated anyway.
After someone has repeatedly and consistently sexually harassed me in nearly every interaction we’ve ever had, the onus is not fucking on me to accept them just because they say they’ve changed this time, honest. In fact, even if they HAVE changed, I am not required to ever forgive them or want to be around them in the future. That’s just how it is. Sometimes you don’t get a second chance.
From Sarah’s point of view, there was no change, just a slight variation in method.
If you’re trying to be a better person so people will like you and not because you want to stop hurting those around you then you have in fact missed the entire point of being a good person.
Eh, teleological vs deontological ethics. I’d prefer somebody was nice to me for selfish reasons, rather than mistreat me for well-meaning reasons.
The entire point of being a good person is so that other people are better off. If other people are better off, why should we care what started that chain of events, assuming it doesn’t have any negative externalities associated?
because circumstances change all. the. time.
someone on a different website mentioned that they didn’t have mirroring empathy, but after hitting adulthood they decided that even though tearing people down could be fun, it was much more pleasant overall to build them up and keep them around as friends. this person gave excellent advice and wasn’t prey to a lot of the knee-jerk responses to emotional signaling, so they were pretty immune to some narcissist-type shit and could give really good help to people, but i couldn’t shake the fear that they might turn on me if it ever became more entertaining than building me up or ignoring me.
which really wasn’t fair to them, i’m 95% sure. but. when someone’s rationale for doing helpful or not-harmful things is blatantly ‘i like the way the results benefit me personally’ i’m always gonna be worried that someday they won’t get the feedback they want, or harming people will offer a greater reward, so they’ll stop doing those nice things. basically i’m worried their behaviour could change at any moment, and then i’ll have left myself vulnerable to a close predator :I
and i guess any other motive for ‘being a good person’ could also be nullified by changing circumstances, but i guess i’m unusually anxious about my humanity no longer being in someone else’s best interests, and that being enough reason to drop the ‘enlightened’ part of enlightened self-interest
Be nice to everybody.
So you’re better than they are.
What exactly is failing to work here, Shiro? Sarah’s first response wasn’t “No Joe, don’t you dare talk to me”, nor anything like it.
She got upset because he revealed how much he knew about PUA tricks, and lashed out. His evidence, while kinda repugnant, was valid evidence for him telling the truth about knowing her name.
Sarah didn’t try anything in this interaction, and if this was trying from a previous interaction, it wouldn’t have started as non-aggressively as it did.
Sarah was reminded that Joe is a shitty person, but he was no shittier to her at the end of the conversation than the start.
Honestly, revealing PUA tricks is the kind of move that, unless done specifically to get someone’s guard lowered, is a reasonably respectable move, since it effectively disarms him. Punishing that behavior is counterproductive.
I’m chalking this one up as Sarah being angry moreso than Joe being a horrible person. (That said, Sarah has plenty of reason to be angry, as a woman of color, and Joe is still mostly a horrible person, but nonetheless, it doesn’t change the specifics of this interaction.)
Having read more of your comments lower down in the thread, I will say that I agree their past interactions make it understandable why Sarah responded as she did. I still feel like her negative response was triggered by the wrong part of the conversation to be strictly validated as part of her previous dislike of him, but it’s not a big enough point to get into an argument with you about.
That’s an awfully nitpicky concession, but I will accept it nonetheless. History matters, context matters, and if some dude has (like I said above) repeatedly and consistently sexually harassed me nearly every time we’ve ever interacted, I am going to do my damnedest to make sure that doesn’t happen again.
I have to imagine his singing is fantastic, just because. :p
The music notes aren’t malformed, so it’s plausible.
That WOULD make it even funnier.
My headcanon is that Linda made him take singing lessons because it would help in his career as a child actor.
Ooooh, ooooh. And weren’t some of the hymmel episodes musicals?
if not most of them to some extent, because of the “can you squeak us a little song?” line. But *yes,* I will happily adopt this into my headcanon, it makes perfect sense.
YES. And my headcanon has Walky singing falsetto.
Could be. On the other hand, he has ridiculous ideas about manliness, and some men who can pull off the whole falsetto thing don’t because they feel it’s effeminate…
Really? That’s weird to me. Some of the rock stars that I like the most are super manly, and they have CRAZY high singing voices.
Me too, and he is pretty outgoing when he wants to be. Which is almost all the time. So of course he drops “theme songs” in people.
(Introvert envy on my part.)
I just remembered seeing part of this song in the older Shortpacked! comics. How old is the song, anyways?
1975 by Eric Carmen, apparently with melodies taken from older works.
It goes back to the mid 1970s. I’m not googling it to find out for certain.
The main piano theme is from Beethoven or Bach.
From the 2nd movement, Piano Concerto 2 in Cmin, by Sergei Rachmaninoff.
And I’m sure Danny knows the chords.
I posted a link to it waaaaay up, fifth post on the page. 😉
Info dump: Wikipedia says it was first released in 1975, so that makes it 42 years old.
*adds to long list of songs that I’ve listened to on the radio lately and are older than I thought*
Rachmaninoff wrote the melody in 1901, so it’s even older than that. 😉
*takes the day off*
Hey! If you sit down at your desk and someone has already finished your work for the day, why not take the day off?
It IS nice when the characters provide their own theme muzak!
Man, I really hope the situation never arises where Sarah’s literally dying in the street and Joe’s the only one around.
Joe will take a page from Walky’s (comic)book and declare that he’s Aloysious, Earl of Murgatroyd.
………..how are these situations even remotely the same? o.O
…the same…as…what Sarah said…in the first panel…?
It does kind of have that foreshadowy kind of feeling to it, doesn’t it?
Obama’s Elf!
God damn someone beat me to it
I looked this up, so I get it now, but at first all I could think of was a remake of Will Ferrell’s Elf staring Obama.
*starring
First one’s funnier.
* Will Ferrell in Elf costume, stares at Obama
* Obama, staring back, sips 7-Up through a straw
I have been hearing a snippet of that song multiple times a day for weeks because the show Wheeler Dealers is coming back with a new cast member to replace long-time mechanic Edd China.
I’m not sure who’s funnier singing it though – Walky or Mike Brewer…
Should’ve brought the ukelele.
Obama’s elf ?
It’s a mondegreen of the lyrics Walky is singing.
And I have to admit I didn’t get it either, until I googled it.
Darkoneko knew was making the reference. I had to Google it as well.
It’s just, was a bit worried since everything in the US seems to be taken politically these days ^^;
Europeans like me tend to be a bit tone deaf with that.
Joe Biden?
When it comes to elf-like Democrats, I’d go more with Dennis Kucinich. But Joe Biden as a changeling? I can kinda see it.
As opposed to Jeff Sessions, who is Trump’s elf.
Jeez, Sarah, I don’t blame you for not buying Joe’s redemption, but that was a little overboard…
Since she doesn’t buy his redemption (which is still a very early work in progress, btw), and Joe had demonstrated that he was bad at taking the hint when told to fuck off, it’s a completely reasonable reaction.
Plus there’s also how every woman on campus (including Sarah) knows how creepy and elaborate that list of his was, giving her even more reason to want him to fuck off.
The first time she met him, she was all but invisible to him because, as she discovered the second time she met him, he was focused on getting Joyce into a position where he could “fix” her…with his penis. The third time she met him, he was with his dad, aka “Joe with a beard,” and Joe’s dad…hit on her, within seconds of meeting her.
The fourth time she met him, he was both skeevy and insulting to her…and to Joyce and Dorothy, who were sitting on either side of her. The fifth time, he blurted out an unprompted boner update while acknowledging that “she’s, like, already rebuffed my advances so I won’t casually mention that I have access to a sex sling.”
We’ve seen…more positive? that doesn’t seem right…um, less toxic aspects of Joe. Sarah has only seen the aspects of him that warn her to look around for a baseball bat.
Keep in mind that one of those Joe/Sarah encounters, it was Sarah who (along with Joyce) took the initiative and inserted themselves uninvited into Joe and Jacob’s dinner plans. (I should also point out that the 2 of them actually exchanged some civil pleasantries after the meal, with her even calling him ‘Hon’.)
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/romans/
Yes, Sarah has rebuffed Joe’s advances before. But inviting yourself into someone’s dinner at the very least sends mixed messages.
That wasn’t Sarah’s idea. It was Joyce taking the initiative, as part of her plan to hook up Sarah and Jacob.
That link shows the ONE sentence Sarah directed at Joe the entire time, from sitting down to the walk home. That she’s able to be civil doesn’t seem to contradict her disliking him.
It may have been Joyce’s idea, but Sarah still went along with it.
There have been some people that I’ve really disliked in the past… Bullies, people that have stolen from me, etc. I would never ever consider sitting down for a meal with them, regardless of who wanted me to. Sarah could have taken the same stance…. could have told Joyce “You can stay, but I’m leaving.”
She went along with it because Jacob was there, and/or she didn’t hate Joe enough that she couldn’t be civil for a while. That’s hardly a ringing endorsement of Joe, especially since she spent the entire meal NOT talking to or looking at him.
Besides, there are levels of hate and dislike that fall short of hating him so much that just sitting near them during a meal is too much to bear.
Yes, I know she went along with it because she had an interest in Jacob. But she was still an uninvited guest, regardless of her motives.
What’s the rule Sarah is giving here? “I don’t want to have anything to do with you unless I can get something out of it”?
More like, “I don’t trust you to approach me and will respond negatively to such actions. My dislike of you is not a deciding factor in other interactions I may seek out or even when put in a situation with you. I still do not trust you to approach me.”
She STILL didn’t want anything to do with him. She didn’t want to do anything that time – Joyce dragged her into it so she could talk to Jacob and Joe happened to be Jacob adjacent.
Not, really? You make it sound like they barged into Joe’s house and made him cook for them.
One pair of students joined another pair where everyone was already acquainted with each other, in a public restaurant. Once Joyce had so excitedly suggested they join them, and neither Jacob or Joe objected, Sarah joining them as well was the expected thing. NOT joining them would meant ditching Joyce, or making a fuss and dragging her away from them when she was so enthusiastic.
The path of least resistance was to sit down and avoid talking to him. Which she did.
What she wants from Joe is pretty damn clear, and perfectly consistent with that. She doesn’t want to talk to or interact with Joe ever again. Unfortunately, Joe and Sarah have overlapping social circles, so situations where they are in the same room or even at the same table will likely come up.
She seems to be making it clear that while she’s accepted that they’ll see each other because of their mutual friendships with Joyce and Jacob, she and Joe are very explicitly NOT friends, and she doesn’t want to have to interact with him any more than absolutely necessary.
Wow, I have to say again…that is not a mixed message when it comes to being interested in someone.
I’m not saying that she’s sending mixed messages regarding sexual interest in Joe. What I’m saying is that its a mixed message between between “Don’t acknowledge me at all” and “I’m going to force myself into a private dinner that you are having”. (Or does voluntarily sitting down uninvited into someone’s private time not count as acknowledgement? Did she think she was somehow invisible when she sat at the table?)
Okay, what you were intending to say was not at all clear from your initial post, but I can see your point now that you’ve clarified. Of course, Sarah’s stance could have changed or intensified since then, and there’s not the factor of Jacob being present anymore.
If that meal happened AFTER she’d told him this, that would seem more contradictory.
Since time only goes in the one direction, it would seem that Sarah’s opinion of Joe has gotten even worse, probably from having seen his a Do List and/or that the guy who tried to assault her roommate recently tracked her down and would’ve tried to maim her if someone else hadn’t done it to him first. I really doubt either one increased her tolerance for Joe at all
+1.
I can easily imagine that her opinion of Joe got even worse when she saw herself on his Do List as an Angry [Black] Roommate, and she sees that the list scares Joyce, AND she wonders if it might have helped lead Ryan to Joyce…
These are all really solid reasons for Sarah to decide that his actions are harmful, and she should curtail future interactions with him, as clearly as humanly possible.
Sarah is lying in the street dying and Joe tries to help her. He totally will because he’s a perv and weirdo, not a cruel piece of shit.
Does Sarah allow it or prefer to die?
“Sarah’s having trouble breathing, I’ll have to loosen her clothing!”
Sarah is walking down the hall on her way somewhere, and in no way in dire need of some dude with a creepy list either trying a new angle to get in her pants, or to dump his emotional baggage on her.
Is Joe owed even the slightest pause, or the benefit of a doubt? (hint: he is not)
I get it. Joe’s a shit for being a fucking creep. We all know that. Let her have this moment. Jesus.
Ah. Sorry. I misread the tone of your comment as judging Sarah for being mad
No, it was purely hypothetical to play off her words.
And sorry about my outburst. Another comic left me more than irked and I guess ya caught me at a bad time.
But no, my original comment was meant to be a joke. I understand Sarah’s anger so I refrained from commenting on it because it was more than covered.
No, Joe isn’t due a pause. That doesn’t mean Sarah isn’t being a tad awful by screaming at him. But then again, Sarah doesn’t seem to give any indication of caring for people outside her friend group and the people she lusts after, so it’s not out of character for her.
Um… Look up ‘dramatic exaggeration’. Typically, everyone does it when mad.
I…I was kidding…
Oh my god.
I never thought I’d say this, but …
Walky is me, I am Walky.
I’m so sorry.
Congrats on the abs.
good walky
Did we ever find out who leaked Joe’s list?
It was me. I did it.
But really, I do think it says something in Joe’s favor that he seems to have pretty much dropped the questioning of who leaked his list.
Danny made a good point that the encryption and protection was probably good a couple of years ago. Also, given that Joe gives out access to the favoured few, it could literally be anyone in his extended social circle.
Personally, I think it’s one of Ryan’s group, possibly as a ‘reprisal’ for Ryan’s hospitalisation.
Honestly, it probably sucked then too. Danny encrypted it in middle school.
Though Joe giving out access like candy kind of makes the “security” irrelevant.
With few exceptions, if you’ve even heard that he has an actual list, you’ve been offered access.
We didn’t. Joe and Danny dropped the search since there was no fixing the fact it was out, and Joe instead opted to give out apology doughnuts.
Though not many of the girls on the floor seem to have a proper motive. Joyce, Billy, Sarah, Dorothy, Ruth, Amber, Becky, Sal and Dina obviously weren’t the ones, Sierra, Mandy, Agatha, Grace, and Other Rachel don’t seem too malicious. Rachel denied it and while she could be lying, she doesn’t seem like she was lying about it to me. It’s been pointed out it doesn’t seem like Mary to do this. Carla may act like a ass, but I can’t see any reason for her to benefit from this…..
Did we consider Roz? We haven’t seen her since May and last we saw her she was annoyed at Joe, even telling him not to rank women.
It could have been a guy too, but the cast is more girls to guys. And none of the guys seem dickish enough to do it. Ethan, Jacob, Walky, and Danny all didn’t seem to do it, which only leaves one person: Mike. And last time he and Joe were even in the same strip together was 2012. Though I wouldn’t put it past Mike to do this.
My bet would be on Raidah to be the leaker, for a number of reasons:
1) We know she knows about Joe’s list, and even may know the password http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/boyspizzaretreat/
2) We know from the way her ‘clique’ interacted with Sarah/Dina in the past that she can be a, shall we say, ‘negative’ person (insulting to Sarah, without considering her side of things; condescending to Dina, etc.)
3) Although she supposedly is OK with Jacob hanging out with other people, she may actually try to sabotage Joe as a way to isolate Jacob
Joe told everybody he had a “do” list, including Raidah, whom he barely knew at the time. It was an RSS feed and its entire purpose was to advertise his sexual appraisal of women to a wider audience.
Joe’s “do” list was about as private as the Eiffel Tower with a giant sheet over it. Who leaked it? No matter who ultimately distributed the URL and the password, when you get down to it, Joe leaked the list. More or less intentionally.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Coming soon, Walkerton-Wilcox.
Carla will insist on controlling the mix board with autotuner.
Oh no… not autotune…
Haven’t Joe and Sarah interacted before, however minimally? Like yeah he had a list and it was dehumanizing and sucked, but it’s not like he’s a stranger accosting Sarah. They know each other.
No, he’s a known party who won’t stop accosting Sarah no matter how bluntly she tells him to fuck off.
They have. She’s not a fan.
There were moments where I’d say it was pretty clear they could have gotten along very well or even become friends, if only Joe could’ve kept his boner updates to himself after the second or third time. She seems pretty done with him now, though.
Yeah, she’s enforced her boundaries and he’s repeatedly stepped over them and even now he’s stopped what she’s doing to perform his “atonement duties”. This was going to be the consequence of that and how he bounces back from this will show a lot of his character and growth.
Even now, they could probably interact in groups, as long as he stops with the boner updates. Let that go on long enough, she might even change her opinion.
But until such time, she’s going to assume he’s being a creep when he accosts her. And react appropriately.
A stranger wouldn’t have gotten such a strong reaction. A stranger would have gotten ‘piss off’ and maybe ‘what is wrong with you?’
This is the reaction of somebody who’s repeatedly had their boundaries disrespected, their desires ignored, and their sense of safety chipped at by this person.
shouldn’t you be doing math walkie? with a certain brit who had fun with your sister?
It’s Sunday. Office hours are Tuesday and Thursday.
Oh, Joe and Sarah make so much sense as a couple….
…What a worrying statement.
It IS worrying, Yumi, because Hollywood has tried to teach us that dysfunctional couples are “Twu Wuv”.
I’ll hold to my dying breath that Ron and ermione would have divorced after two months.
I have to say I differ greatly on my perception of Ron and Hermione. I think they were good together, though if you’re only basing it on the movies I can see your point more.
Okay, this is a SIGN! Gimme a Walky, Gav Roulette!!!
…..
….. signs hazy, try again.
Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
Gav roulette?
As someone who started reading Nukees long before I discovered the Willisverses, I am trying to imagine a Nukees character whom you, Reltzik, would be happy with as your gravatar…King Luca, maybe? Probably just projection on my part.
Instant nostalgia for us readers, instant nostalgia-and-heartburn for oh so many webcomic creators: “Keenspot.”
Additional nod to Schlock Mercenary goes here.
That song is almost as bad an earworm as Debbie Boone’s “You Light Up My Life”.
I was at a training to night, and we had a break, so I went upstairs to the bathroom, and when I came back other people were in the middle of discussion medical transitions, with this one woman going, “But they’re preforming surgery on eleven and twelve year olds!” and everything for her kept coming back to that, and I have no idea how this topic of conversation was even arrived at, but man was it weird.
When I questioned her source of information of these claims, she admitted to not being sure of it. I tried to explain what I saw actually happening with various people of various ages I’ve known, but I got cut off because the instructor was more interested in hearing what this one girl who’s a med student had to say about it. (She was basically saying the same thing I was, and nothing against her, she’s very nice and asked my pronouns on the first day and all; I was just annoyed at being cut off.)
Ugh, those transphobic lies run around the world before the truth gets its boots on and it’s frustrating as all fuck.
Seriously. And she seems…like, I don’t really like her, but her stance towards trans people in general seems fine? And even in this conversation she was saying she was fine with hormone therapy at that age, but she was so sure these surgeries were happening, that people were pushing for them to be common. I wondered afterward if maybe she read something that conflated surgeries on intersex people (which is a whole other topic to address) with trans youth? I’ll probably talk about it with her more next session.
Nah, it’s the big propaganda push from TERFs, arguing that trans people are trying to push surgeries on kids and arguing that that’s what “gender affirmation” means. So a school or a parent letting a kid use the pronouns they prefer and dress in a way they like gets reported instead as a kid getting genital surgeries forced on them by evil trans forces.
And it’s in a lot of major newspapers. The BBC, the Guardian, the New York Times, New York magazine, among others have all had a number of articles from known TERFs selling this lie in order to justify discriminatory laws against trans kids.
I’ve run into this bullshit a lot being a trans teacher trying to get resources and support to trans kids.
Either way I assume whatever she was reading was TERF propaganda, designed to purposefully mislead. She already works with vulnerable populations, and if she completes this training she’s going to add to that, so I really want to do what I can to educate her and deconstruct these myths.
Also, the instructor, while seeming surprisingly good overall (saying things to her like, “They don’t have these surgeries just for the fun of it; they have them because that’s who they are.”) he conflated gender and sexuality, which was kind of confusing at times. Basically it was an unexpected conversation to walk back to.
Sounds like the kind of conversation you never find out how it actually started because nobody knows.
The whole operation stuff in being trans is part of what freaks people out who have a certain flavor of eco-feministic mindset which has a strange combination of myths about female superiority, the ‘natural’ state of things and a huge mistrust in technology and medicine.
I remember the mind-set seemed to make sense to me in the late 1980ties. Though how this evolved in the aggression against trans persons you describe as common is totally beyond me. Even then, I would only have been a bongo about women’s spaces, not trans existence itself, though this distinction might not have made sense to anyone trans as I can see now.
Feminists going out of their way to attack trans people’s right to exist at all don’t make any sense to me at all. It’s like the whole bathroom story (there’s a door behind which everyone does their business alone, so wtf?). Some do but I fail to understand why (especially now where the currents potus is a real threat to everyone’s wellbeing).
I cannot think of any other voluntary operation that would have as much impact on a life (that at this time was not the stuff of fantasy/science fiction). So I understand the freakout at the idea of children/early teens having such an operation. A rumour maliciously spread. Tactics like that are abominable.
The thing is, they don’t really have freakouts about ‘children having that sort of operations’…they would consider it a good thing that intersex children are often operated on to give them unambiguous genitals, even if they’re not the right ones by the otherwise all-powerful genetics. (And if they’re the wrong ones by the child’s identity, in a few years when they’re able to articulate it? Who cares!)
Though I believe there are those who do that, this attitude doesn’t match with the mindset I described above. The body being naturally that way, there wouldn’t be a reason to operate.
She could also be getting her misinformation from “The American COLLEGE of Pediatricians.” Wiki calls them a “socially conservative advocacy group” and says they only have about 500 members. Their raison d’être is “the gays are icky” bit they have branched out and now also distribute lies attacking trans children. Their name, of course, is intended to trick people into confusing them with the American ACADEMY of Pediatrics, which is a professional association (with about 65,000 members) rather than an advocacy group. The American Academy of Pediatrics “stands in support of transgender children and adults, and condemns attempts to stigmatize or marginalize them.”
Last year, the American Academy of Pediatrics joined with The American College of Osteopathic Pediatricians (the official pediatric organization of the American Osteopathic Association — for pediatricians who are D.O.s rather than M.D.s) and the Human Rights Campaign to publish a document titled “Supporting and Caring for Transgender Children.” Here are a few helpful excerpts:
“Gender transition is an umbrella term for the steps a transgender person and their community take to affirm their gender identity. Depending on the person’s age and their individual needs, these steps can include social, medical, surgical and legal changes. For children who have not reached puberty, medical interventions are not part of transition. At this stage, their transition process only includes “‘social transition.’”
“Despite the emphasis on medical care in media reports on transgender adults, gender transition for children who have not reached puberty is entirely a social process. The steps a family and community take to affirm a child’s gender identity are called social transition. Social transition is completely reversible if the child determines it’s not right for them.”
“For children, pre-adolescents and early adolescents, gender transition is mainly a social process. Children beginning puberty may also use puberty-suppressing medication as they explore their gender identity. Both of these steps are completely reversible.
Social transition is equally important for adults and older adolescents. People in these age groups may also take additional steps, including gender-affirming hormone therapy and surgeries.
Transgender people also often change their legal name and the gender recorded on identity documents, like a driver’s license, birth certificate or passport. These steps can happen at any stage in transition, although some states require certain types of medical treatment before allowing gender marker changes.”
Here’s a link to the document I was quoting from:
http://hrc.im/supportingtranschildren
Another good resource is the AAP’s Section on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Health and Wellness. “The SOLGBTHW of the American Academy of Pediatrics is a group of pediatricians and other health providers interested in LGBT health and wellness.”
https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/Committees-Councils-Sections/solgbt/Pages/home.aspx
Helpful comment is helpful, thank you Kit.
Cerberus, are you still on that chat site where we talked a few months ago? I can’t find if I saved a link to it.
Technically yes. But it’d probably better to just contact me directly at cerberussadlyno AT gmail DOT com if you wanted to get a hold of me.
I hope she’s got just as much venom for the doctors who rebuilt my broken arm out of screws and pins when I was four years old… but as we all know, it’s not really about the surgery, or even the age. It’s about refusing to learn about the humanity of those different from you.
Definitely not foreshadowing or anything.
See, Joe. WALKY wants to talk about feelings!
I mean sure good that Sarah left outta that quickly and Joe has enough sense now to just let it happen.
That being said i’m not overly thrilled at the idea of Walky being the one to step up.
I know Sarah’s interactions with Joe haven’t been good in the past, but her reaction here seems a bit extreme to me.
I have been forced to resort to such messages as “I am not interested. I will never be interested. You disgust me. Nothing you can say will ever give you a chance with me. Nothing you have said is in the least bit appealing. You have no chance with me ever, even in a million years. If all humans except you and I were wiped from the Earth, I would prefer my left hand to you, and I’m right-handed.” before with particularly persistent dudes. This strip does not seem out of proportion in the least to me.
I had one guy, who wasn’t hitting on me, but was way too touchy. When I said I didn’t like being touched, at first he listened, but then he fell back into touching me– arm, shoulder, leg– regularly. So I asked for him to stop again. Same thing.
What finally worked was me saying to him, “If you touch me again, I will start screaming. I will not stop screaming until you stop touching me. If someone asks why I was screaming, I will explain to them. I can scream very loudly; would you like to hear a demonstration?”
I’ve had a few stalkers I’ve had to get really loud to get to back off. Teacher voice can sometimes come in handy.
All well and good, but after you spend all your time telling someone “I’m not interested”, do you then go and invite yourself to sit with that person when they’re having a private dinner? Because that would definitely send mixed messages.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/approachable/
(Granted, it was Joyces idea, not Sarah, but she eventually did go along with it.)
Ugh, no offense, but that would not be an example of a mixed message. A mixed message would be if she had in that moment, begged him to take her, not politely occupying the same general location as him.
Like, I don’t mean to be bothered by that, but there’s so many men in the real world who really do believe “agrees to be in the same general location as you” as consent to be harassed or assaulted and it gets frustrating sometimes.
Not saying that the ‘mixed message’ was that Sarah was actually interested in Joyce as a sexual partner.
What I’m saying is that its a mixed message between “I don’t want to have anything to do with you” and “I will play a part in forcing myself into the middle of of a private dinner that you happen to be having”.
Except she didn’t force her way into a private dinner. Joyce did and forced her to participate. And Joe understood that, because he recognized the game Joyce was playing and how fucked up it was and was trying to stop her.
They had one civil exchange both expressing dismay at Joyce and Jacob being cutesy together, but beyond that, she seemed to generally avoid his existence.
And during that, Joe revealed that he’s still sexually obsessed with her and still wants to sleep with her and stated in that context that he has a sex swing.
Like, having basic civility with a person you don’t trust because a friend wants to sit with them is not at all a mixed message, as Sarah’s body language has been pretty clearly “just leave me alone, Joe” for a long while with him.
They certainly do not have a friendly relationship where it is okay to demand emotional labor from her or to assume an intimacy they have not built.
Like, let me put it this way, women are under tremendous pressure to always smile and nod and be civil to folks who have wronged us or who we don’t trust or want to be alone with.
Us doing that does not mean that we are sending mixed messages or have forgiven the individual in question or would be okay with them approaching us in a different context as if we were friends.
I have had to sit and be friendly with people I have loathed, who have dumped bigotry on me, have hurt friends of mine, have made inappropriate comments about my body and sexuality. It doesn’t mean I want them being buddy-buddy and demanding a conversation about feelings. And if they tried that shit, I’d feel a strong temptation to explode like Sarah does here as well.
It was Joyce’s idea, but Sarah still went along with it. Is Joyce some sort of wizard that can cast a mind control spell on Sarah? Was Sarah suffering from sort of temporary insanity?
At any time, Sarah could have left. She could have told Joyce “No, I dislike Joe too much to join them”. She could have faked an illness. She could have lied and said “Don’t worry I have a better plan to get Jacob”. She had options, and the option she took was “I’m going to be an uninvited guest at their dinner, in a way that means I will be interacting with Joe for a significant length of time”.
And now she says “You don’t exist!”
I hope Cerb doesn’t mind if I highlight a bit of her previous message that already clearly and concisely stated why that happened:
Like, let me put it this way, women are under tremendous pressure to always smile and nod and be civil to folks who have wronged us or who we don’t trust or want to be alone with.
Us doing that does not mean that we are sending mixed messages or have forgiven the individual in question or would be okay with them approaching us in a different context as if we were friends.
Shiro- Thank you!
And yes, again, women are under extreme pressure to play nice and be civil. Especially when they are in the presence of someone they have a massive crush on and know that having an outburst or running away would lead to a scene that would end with her being seen negatively by others including her crush.
A reminder that I have extensive experience maintaining base level civility with people I’ve had very good reason to loathe and would have no interest in a more friendly connection with simply because it would be making a scene to blow up on them.
I would be very bothered to know that those people were using that civility to assume a closer relationship and ask for an increased level of intimacy.
Additionally, Sarah failing to set a boundary then does *not* mean she waives the right to set future boundaries. People are allowed to go from “yes” to “no”.
People are indeed allowed to go from a Yes to a No. In this case, Sarah went a much shorter distance, from ‘I’m here but it wasn’t my idea and I’m obviously super uncomfortable about it” to “No”.
You say that like Joyce didn’t drag Sarah into it. That’s on Joyce, not Sarah. Sarah told her that this was a bad idea.
I mean…no? That doesn’t seem like a incident that would send mixed messages on the “are you interested” scale at all. Now, if you had said it would send mixed messages in the way of “I can tolerate you as a human being,” then I could maybe see it sending mixed messages when Sarah’s overall stance is a “NOPE” on that.
Keep in mind that in the first panel in the comic, Sarah is not just saying “I’m not interested in you sexually”, she’s going further and saying “Don’t acknowledge me at all”. Her willingly inserting herself uninvited into Joe and Jacob’s dinner (even if it wasn’t her idea, she still participated) certainly contradicts the “don’t acknowledge me” statement she made.
Okay, it’s just that that’s not what you said. You said “telling someone “I’m not interested”…then go and … would definitely send mixed messages.”
Like I said, if you had made your statement on it being mixed messages about willingness to interact with him, then I could see where you’re coming from; it’s just, that’s not what you said.
Sorry, perhaps I should have been more percise. I thought the context was clear, based on the posting by the other reader (i.e. how Sarah’s reaction was extreme) and Sarah’s reaction wasn’t just a rejection of sexual interest but of Joe’s entire humanity/existence.
Well, plus your comment was posted in response to Shiro’s post, which definitely makes it seem more about the “interested in” aspect. But yeah, I agree more with what Cerb said upthread, but at least the point you’re making is better than what it originally seemed.
“…wasn’t just a rejection of sexual interest but of Joe’s entire humanity/exist”
I feel like there’s something important about the way you phrased that.
… Oh. I checked the wording, and she tells Joe not to acknowledge *her* existence. But it sounds like you’ve interpreted that as an attack on *Joe’s* existence and even humanity? :/
<a href="http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/participate/"This strip right here, moments later, would definitely be enough to push me from “I dislike you but will tolerate you if it means also being around a dude I’m crushing hardcore on” to “nope nope nope we don’t exist to each other anymore”
…well I fucked that up but you see what I was going for
Wait, is Joe saying that a woman being uncomfortable around him turns him on? That’s…. I don’t have words….
Yeah. Ain’t it creepy?
He’s talked before, while she was yelling at him, about how he likes her angry energy.
Sarah in that strip is painfully relatable vis a vis my experiences in group dynamics.
I will never, ever understand why dudes confuse “I can stand to be in your presence for short periods of time” for actual interest or enjoyment.
And then you try to clear that up for them and get told you’re extreme.
Sometimes the current culture causes me to despair. Only marginally better than in the 60’s but … Still, ugh.
Aaaand because Celine Dion is so infectious, the hacked muzak will be stuck on her for at least a week.
…. or is this the Eric Carmen version?
Probably Carmen’s, because that’s the version that’s been everywhere since it came out. I wasn’t even aware that Dion had covered it.
Heh, an online friend didn’t know the original version is by Eric Carmen until I showed it to them; they just knew Dion’s version.
IDK what this means about the relative fame of each version. I just wanted to make a comment.
walky brought that on himself
Really? Because I want to blame Carey Oki.
It was worth it.
Comic Reactions:
Panel 1: This is consequences.
Joe’s past interactions with Sarah have almost all been circumstances where he’s ignored her consent. Hitting on her and ignoring her negative body language until she had no resort but to scream at him to lay off. Still trying to hit on her after that. And again. And at the latest interaction, exploited a simple talking moment to hint, hint nudge nudge about owning a sex swing.
Sarah has not seen Joe’s growth. She doesn’t even know Joyce has been in contact with him. All she knows is that she’s had her creep radar on him for awhile and now he’s been proven to be PUA bad news (to her eyes) and he’s still trying to approach her while she’s just minding her own business and demanding intensive social interaction and emotional labor on her part.
There is no reason why she should feel obligated to be kind to him and charitable other than the social pressure we put on women to be overly forgiving to fuckupery, and absorb unpaid emotional labor at their own expense or safety.
Sarah’s actions feel harsh because we, unlike her, have seen that Joe’s intentions are actually benign and he does want to grow and because we expect women in fiction to fulfill the role of helper for a man’s growth, rather than rejecting his attempt to improve for her own safety.
But it’s not. It’s wholly rational and an absolute fair boundary to set. She doesn’t trust him. She thinks him dangerous and she’s done with him approaching her out of nowhere. There’s no reason she knows to give him the benefit of the doubt and if we didn’t trust Joe to continue on a path of redemption, Sarah would end up being in danger trying to trust in someone like Joe’s “sob story of redemption” from “all the girls being mean to him”.*
*I’m thinking a lot about the recent article that came out pointing out how the hate movement that ruined gaming was run by literal nazis and were aided by a lot of faux-feminist men. And some of those men tried desperately to play penitent after it was revealed they had done severe harm to the folks targeted by the hate movement and tried to pretend they had apologized to their direct victims and so on… In another story, Joe is those men, trying to say whatever he could to get back “in” and continue to abuse.
But I trust him to be better. I believe in him.
Panel 2: And this is a very important moment. He’s been cursed out by a woman. His normal response to that is to immediately go on the victim blaming, yelling at her that she’s not allowed to feel unsafe around him and that she’s just overreacting. He did it to Joyce, to Sarah, even to Dorothy to a degree.
But here? He swallows his pride and just says he’s sorry. No pursuit, no anger, no attempt to demand satisfaction. Just letting it go and accepting her desire for him to leave her alone.
This is the real major growth moment for Joe. This is the sign of hope that he will climb his way out of the toxic pit he fell down and be a man worthy of the trust he craves.
Panels 3-5: Walky is absolutely justified in getting the boot in here a little bit after the shit Joe pulled on Dorothy.
And I’d like to imagine he has an excellent singing voice.
And of course, even with people she DOESN’T actively dislike and actively have to be on the defense towards, Sarah has no desire to stop whatever she is doing to talk about feelings.
Even if she knew perfectly every step of Joe’s journey, she has no reason to answer anything other than “Good for you, text Joyce if you want to talk about feelings. I’m out of here.”
But Joe’s apology and backing of in panel 1 and 2 are genuine and good.
You are a much, much more patient and accommodating person than I am. The amount of fundamental misunderstanding of Joe and Sarah’s past interactions over the past couple days is plucking my last nerve.
“This is consequences.”
And part of atonement and growth is accepting those consequences. So many people seem to think that apologizing is a process by which we avoid consequences; something we do instead of facing consequences. I can almost hear myself whining “But I said I was sorry!” right before my dad put my playstation in his closet. Joe’s acceptance of those consequences and that “sorry” isn’t going to magically fix it all is a great moment of growth.
Still, I’m a little worried that he sees the consequences of his actions as being “cut off” rather than hurting people, destroying trust, and ruining potential future relationships. But he’s getting there.
All of this!
Atonement is valuable, but it doesn’t mean hurt never occurred or that people owe you aid and absolution. What has happened has happened. The value of atonement and self-improvement is ensuring it never happens again.
“Redemption is a rare and special thing. It’s not for everyone.”
John Scalzi has written a rather excellent post on this topic on his blog.
The second panel does definitely give hope that Joe might actually be able to change his ways. This strip shows in a concrete way that just because you have admitted your mistakes and are trying to change, not everyone is going to forgive you your earlier actions (and that’s their right) or praise you for not acting like a creepy stalker anymore (which should anyway be like the most basic bar on human interaction and showing respect to other people, not really something worth complimenting in the first place). In short, actions have consequences. Even if you are sorry and regret those actions later.
And panel 2 Joe seems to be ready to accept those consequences. It is a remarkably different reaction from before when someone has gotten angry with him, not getting defensive or blaming the other for “overreacting”. Just a simple “I’m sorry”. Which is very nice to see and it makes me hopeful for the future 🙂 Though the process will probably still be slow and he might take some backsteps. But still, he has potential, has realized how his actions have affected other people (thank you Joyce) and has shown willingness to change. So I think he will get there.
Oh and btw, could you tell which article about gaming are you referring to? I tried googling a little but didn’t come up with anything relevant posted recently.
Yeah, it’s a very good sign that he’s accepting it rather than fighting it and gives me a lot of hope as well.
And here’s the url on the article: https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/heres-how-breitbart-and-milo-smuggled-white-nationalism?utm_term=.bk5gdrP8V#.rgr6vZx9z
Thank you 🙂
CERBERUS! I have missed you so. I’m so sorry I’ve been MIA. It’s a long story. How are you? I’m so very behind and I hope all is well. How’s you’re fiance, girlfriend, and job? Please tell me the job is still going well. So much can happen in two months 🙁
I’m doing okay. Job is excellent and I’m getting really good reviews from colleagues, admin, parents, and students and my girlfriend is awesome.
My finacee kind of turned out to be super abusive and kind of sort of preyed on many of my worst fears while doing it.
But hey, their number is blocked now and I’m free and I’m doing way better than I thought I’d be doing though I’m still processing how I was so blind to so many red-flags.
How are you doing?
I’m so happy that your job is going well and your girlfriend is awesome! Sorry about the ex. I’m glad the wedding got postponed so at least yall weren’t married. And as a fellow red flag misser, it happens.
I’m doing well. My arm is healing at a much faster pace than average which is good. Starting therapy next week. I’ve got a lot of movement back, but it’s still slow going and I still haven’t got most of the feeling back. I have two long scars from my wrist down to my elbow. My best friend said it’s good tattoo material. She also bought me theraputty to help with my grip. I don’t know what I would do without her. She’s amazing.
I’m slowly becoming friends with a local woman. She has her flaws and we got in a huge fight early one, but she was the only person to visit me in the hospital besides dad. My family didn’t care. It was a real gut punch… anyway, we have started bonding over both having mild OCD and she’s become less judgemental about me.
One day we had a long talk about trans and gender identity. It was something she had never known existed before and to my surprise she was very accepting and supportive of it and those who are trans or non binary. It was amazing and I had to give her props for it.
She trusts me around her kids. They adore me and sometimes ask to come to my house XD
We have a TV night where we sit around enjoying junk food, talking, and watching Hulu. I’ve got her into the show Lucifer. I expected her to hate it because of the religious undertones, but she loves it.
She even remembered my birthday. It’s Saturday, but she surprised me early. She brought me my favorite snacks, a new set of sheets in my favorite color, and strawberry cupcakes. I nearly cried. You see; this is my third birthday without my Mamaw. She always made me a strawberry cake for my birthday. She never forget. And my new friend remembered the story. I can’t describe what it feels like to know someone listens and cares.
My cat Danny is doing well. He’s growing and very spoiled. He loves to visit my dad’s and play with his pets.
Dad is dad. Sometimes he’s kind. Sometimes he rips me a new one. He recently told me he wished he had left me in the nut house and let the government have me because all I do is stress him out and that he was the only family I had left because the rest didn’t give a damp about me so I better act right around him and not use him. I curled up in my bed and didn’t get up save to go to the bathroom for a day or two after that…
I’ve really gotten into Undertale lately. I’m dressing up as a human gender flip Sans for a Halloween thing I’m going to. I’m also using my passion to try and practice writing. I figured the best way to cut my teeth was on fan fiction. I might never finish it much less post it, but it’s really good practice.
1:54 a.m. over here – HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BLUEEE!!!! *gives cake*
And regarding yesterday, you’re always missed!
Daw! Thanks JB. *hugs*
I’m glad you are feeling healthier and are doing better and I’m glad you made a new friend who’s being awesome and supporting you.
ALSO HAPPY EARLY BIRTHDAY!
With the dad, all I can say is assholes who can’t support you as you are and who would use moments of vulnerability against you are not worth paying attention to. His bullshit is his bullshit and it’s allowed to hurt but it doesn’t mean he is right about a single thing about you.
You are awesome and you will survive this bullshit.
*supportive hug*
Thanks so much! And I love how you put things. He still knows how to gut punch me, but I can usually take it. Sometimes though, he catches me on an off day.
Oh! And I’m getting treatment for PMDD. It’s helping. 🙂
happy birthday! yay fast healing! (my uncle’s arm was really reluctant to heal, but it sounds like it’s finally coming around 🙂 )
… what cerberus said about jerk-dad. 😛 *hugs*
and yay fanfiction! (I guess I’ve gotta buy undertale soon then… but I’m still working my way through Starbound 🙂
Yeah. I’m really happy. And oh my god I can’t wait until you play it! You expect it not to be much because the graphics, but the story is so good. Just don’t play genocide. At least your first few play throughs.
Walky, you beautiful bastard, Joe deserved that
Panel 5. The I’m-about-to-be-a-little-sh!t-and-I-know-it face. Aka the Little Brother Face™. LOVE IT.
Practiced to perfection on Sal and Billie.
…in fact, your gravatar has a perfect little SISTER face.
“C:”
At least he doesn’t have his ukelele on him!
Tomorrow’s comic is gonna be Danny adding some sweet uke chords to the bottom end, there.
Is it just me, or is Joe smiling in the third panel?
that is the cutest smile and I’m mad about it
sarah in the first panel is such a mood tbh
I used that song once for a high school multimedia project about Holden Caulfield… In retrospect maybe not such a good idea because I just noticed the line “and making love was just for fun”. Idk anymore.
High school English teacher here.
I wouldn’t give a shit.
Oh. You’re talking about appropriateness of sex references. That didn’t cross my mind at all, but my teacher didn’t care either about sex references. I meant that the song’s narrator seems a lot older with that line. Like a lot older than Holden’s age. Although I guess no song can be a super perfect fit.
Ah. See, that’s not the line that would make me think that as much as, you know, “when I was young.” But still, I’d say it’s more how you connected the song to the theme, or at least implied it if you didn’t do so explicitly.
i don’t understand
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGrLb6W5YOM
Good chuckles.
Walky? Not now, okay?
Thank you Sarah <3
oh Walky <3
Walky must have a song ready for everybody.
Study question: Whats on his list?
Songs.
Now that Walky’s in a groove, he continues with I’m Not in L–mmfff
“…and SOOOOL-itaire’s the only game in townmmmmfffff”
Favorite comic
Kinda shocking that after all these years and across multiple comics, Walky in the end dies of suffocation by Joe while singing a 70’s power ballad.
I seem to recall someone callin’ it back in Roomies. Took a while, though.
Right? Who could have known he would have survived singing The Eagles?
I love how into it Walky is in the last panel with his arms raised belting it out… the only way to improve on it is if he were outside, and it was raining, and he had dropped to his knees.
Panel 2 Sarah is leaving in a justifiably angry huff. Nice capture of her ‘turf.
Predictive spelling made that wrong.
It’s her ‘tude.
Oh, please, PLEASE let what Sarah says not be some sort of prophecy.
I mean, Willis wouldn’t be that cruel… right?
Right?
Right, Wright, right.
I don’t think that will happen.
We’ve just seen Sal and Malaya put together and they’ll learn to tolerate each other (or one will die trying).
Not like Sarah is Joe’s friend, but he’s burned that bridge, and he has to live with it. It might even affect his friendship with Joyce.
So the last couple made me nostalgic for when Joe and Sarah hooked up in Roomies.
Now I’m nostalgic for when Joe and Walky used to hang out in Its Walky.
AH SCREW IT I’LL THROW MY HAT IN THE RING.
Sarah’s rebuttal is nothing more than the excessive point of viewpoint because she literally thinks that Joe is a male genital with a half of a brain. It doesn’t help that the fact that Joe shows this all the time, but basically screaming at him to go shove off isn’t helping anyone’s situation.
Of course this usually goes into the whole debate that whether or not should a person feel guarded with a person who’s experience in dating. Bonus points if it’s a gender situation. I’m going with the karma’s been placed on Joe, despite him being actually a person of color and being jewish surprisingly but yeah all of the shit that’s coming towards the son of a gun is actually well-deserved.
You look at girls in a crappy way, and well whaddya know? You get trampled on by them. But also as a person who favors male and female I can’t really get mad at Joe for just being who he is. If I got mad at every person who wants to have sex, I’ll be here for a while in fact. But it’s not just that kinda area, Joe’s list was descriptive, misogynistic, and by all means not something that a guy should strive for into being. You can like sex. But you can’t slather your item of attraction with a large tongue and expect things to be in the right state of mind towards everyone’s approval. Because guess what there Archie my boy, this ain’t the 1950s at the sockhop here.
Upon rereading this a few days later, I have decided that the last two panels are perfect. Comedy gold.