From what I’ve been seeing both in the comments and on social media, men liking sex and talking about it is horrible, and men should be shamed for it. It’s become okay to slut shame men
No. It’s because he has a history of caring more about sex that the feelings of women he’s with. He COULD try to find women who also want open relationships, but he hasn’t, so that’s why people are hard on him. His liking sex doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
He seems to really care about her feelings, really care about HER, though.
And that he likes having sex with her doesn’t really take anything away from that. Because that doesn’t seem to be his defining interest in her.
And yet, the time when (as far as we can tell) he genuinely cares for someone and is committed to her happiness, he still can be demonised for mentioning that he likes having sex with her? That comment is literally implying that caring and loving is not enough, he must also become celibate in order for his redemption to be acceptable.
Well, Joe thinks that’s what it would take. Not “for his redemption to be acceptable”, but because he’ll keep hurting women.
But maybe it’s not the “I like sex” that’s creepy, but the part where he boasts about how she’s 15 years younger than him?
Or maybe it’s that some of us suspect he’s just swept up in the excitement of a new love and he’ll revert when it wears off and the focus on how great the sex was is clue to that.
Or hey, maybe he really did change, with no noticeable self-reflection or repentance or understanding that what he did before was a problem. All he needed was to meet the right woman (a previous abuse victim with known poor judgment when it comes to men) and all his problems will vanish. No need to struggle with his issues like his son is doing.
You are still slut shaming Richard and Joe though. Roz brags about her sexual prowess and its perfectly fine, but Joe or Richard, “nope thats not allowed, that’s toxic masculinity”
No. Fucking seriously I am not. “Slut shaming” is not saying anything bad about anyone’s attitude towards sex ever, regardless of how fucking shitty they are.
Joe had acknowledged he’s been an ass and he’s trying to change. If he’s being “slut shamed”, that’s not me. That’s him. That’s Willis. That’s the whole damn point of his story arc. I have no problem with Joe having all the sex he wants, providing he stops treating women like objects that exist for the purpose of him getting off. I had no problem with his encounters with Roz. The problem with his scene with Penny, was her position as TA, not with him.
Joe’s trying to change. That’s great. He’s going to struggle with it and screw up, that’s expected. He’ll get better because he’s a protagonist.
Richard is not going to walk on from off stage having resolved all the issues that screwed up Joe’s attitude towards women by finding the magic perfect woman for him. Not going to happen. If you want to believe it go right ahead and wait for the story to prove you wrong.
Plenty of men like sex. I like sex. There is absolutely nothing wrong with liking sex. There’s not even anything wrong with multiple partners, casual sex, any of that. It can be done ethically, without hurting anyone involved. From what little we know of Richard, his track record is not good and there’s no reason to believe he’s actually changed.
If some other male character without his track record came on and talked up his sex life, I wouldn’t have the slightest problem with it – other than maybe the intergenerational TMI thing.
This isn’t about Richard having sex with a lot of women. It’s about Richard repeatedly *cheating* on women, and the jarring (but expected) switch from him building up this “I’ve turned over a new leaf” thing, to mentioning her age and sexual prowess, is taken as something of an indicator that he is not going to change his ways. I can’t speak for everyone, but I definitely don’t have a problem with Richard sleeping around, just with him cheating on his partners, and Joe clearly shares that view.
“There is zero mentioning or indication of cheating there.”
so? c’mon, you’re not seriously suggesting we ignore the context of the rest of this comic and act like nothing counts except the exact words said right here, are you? 😛
Also the fact that Joe’s dad is just Joe with a beard, but Stacy is like, obviously old enough to have an 18 year old child, makes it feel really weird to now hear that Joe’s dad’s actually secretly like… middle aged? Even if Stacy is a super young mom in her mid-late 30s, that puts Richard at at least 50. Is all his age hidden in the beard? Does he have a painting somewhere in an attic that’s been aging for him?
I feel like saying she’s 15 years younger is an exaggeration. This is Joe’s dad we’re talking about here after all. Stacy being a teen mom for Amber definitely makes sense though. I could see them being something like 47 and 37 or so.
For whatever it’s worth, when my parents got married he was 32 and she was 22; it was almost six years later that I came along so by the time I was a freshman in college my dad was 56. It’s not all that far-fetched.
No I mean the age is fine, he just doesn’t look it, because of how he’s drawn as Joe with a beard. I think my mom and stepdad were like 50 and 56 respectively when I was 18.
some people brought up that he could be dying his hair though and I’ll buy that.
As an old geezer of “about 55” with a beard, my beard went grey about a half-decade ago, yet my head hair has barely a grey hair in it. Note that Richard’s beard does have grey patches; those aren’t highlights.
I only just realised that it WASN’T that his beard is super shiny :O although it does make me feel less confused by the gray pattern in my husband’s beard…
I dunno, my dad’s in his mid-to-late fifties and his hair’s still a solid dark brown while his beard’s been mostly grey for the last six years or so. Sometimes it works out that way.
It wouldn’t be weird for Stacy to have been 25 when Amber was born, and it also wouldn’t have been weird for Richard to be 40 when Joe was born. (My own dad was 42 when I was born.)
White hair is very genetic. I was going grey at 30 and my son had white hairs appearing while in high school. He started dyeing his hair at 30. I never have, because looking a little older does not hurt a man’s career and my wife didn’t care. You can have no hair, white hair or something like your original color quite young in life. Still, Dick might well dye his hair.
Like someone said somewhere below, sometimes relationships develop fast. While that’s not my personal preference, it does happen, and people can be happy that way.
My grandparents met and knew each other for about two weeks before getting married and moving to Colombia, so since no one here has moved countries, they’re not the most impulsive relationship I know.
(My grandparents were married until my grandfather’s death; it can be hard to judge how well a relationship like that turned out, but I do have a memory of my grandpa once telling me when I was eight– which, now that I think of it, might have been around the time of his cancer diagnosis– “I’m so lucky I got to spend my life with your grandmother.” So I like to believe they were happy.)
It certainly can happen, but it’s far more common for relationships to deveolp fast and intense and then fall apart. New Relationship Energy is a powerful drug and when the rush wears off is when you find out if there’s really anything there. I also suspect your grandfather didn’t have Richard’s lousy track record.
Which he’s completely ignoring here. You’ll notice he’s not repentant. He’s not saying he knows he did wrong and hurt people before, but he’s really going to work on doing better this time. He just doesn’t feel like cheating right now and assumes that’ll last forever. It won’t.
And he’s still objectifying Stacy.
According to the Walkypedia DoA timeline, they met on Sept. 18, and it is now Oct. 10. Just over three weeks.
However, there was a recent post by Willis — for the life of me I cannot locate it — but it was to the effect that it two-thirds of the way through October in-universe. Which would put them at a month or more.
Are there diverging timelines in the DoA world? Is Huntokar involved somehow?
There was an ad for Disney parks a long time ago about parents being disappointed that their child wasn’t ready to walk yet…but then the kid takes the first steps on the way to getting a hug from a CM in a Mickey costume.
Yeah…perhaps not the right circumstances for a Donna Meagle-Parks and Rec quote. *ahem* She should have a good time with him, use him for his money (well, accept the help I’m betting he willingly offers), then leave if/when the relationship no longer benefits her. Because he is skeevy.
Don’t be silly. He’s not feeling any urge to do so right now, so he’s obviously changed and there won’t be any problems and there’s no need to bring it up.
So, if I’m understanding this, telling somebody “by the way, I’m likely to cheat on you” and letting them live in paranoia for a month until it happens is kinder than just letting them live in ignorance until it happens?
(The presumption of course is that it’s going to happen either way.)
I think it is.
They can prepare emotionally – not make the same kind of emotional commitment. They can walk away.
Hell, maybe they’d be happy with an open relationship, as long as everything’s above board.
@Begbert2: They have to talk about it, yes. Because Stacey will inevitably have to ask herself if she’s actually okay with Richard’s flighty temperament or not. And it would be better if she could think about it without it being thrown at her face like a proof that yet again the man she’s seeing is abusing her.
At worst they break off a doomed relationship before too much damage has been done. At best, as thejeff said, they both find it advantageous to be in an open relationship.
Seeing how Richard has said in yesterday’s strip he didn’t tell her because he wants to go steady, if she knows, it’s not thanks to him. And if she knows and doesn’t say anything while… Well, she’s just asking to make the whole affair a lot more difficult than it could/should be.
Like, cards on the table here: I’m a recovering sex addict. I think Richard probably means what he’s saying here. I think he does genuinely care about Stacy, but that alone isn’t enough. I hope he’ll put the work in.
He’s showing no signs of it. Like yesterday, he didn’t say he was going to try or going to work at it, he just said he was barely noticing all the hot, technically legal girls. Eventually the thrill will wear off, even if only temporarily and he’ll start noticing again. And he won’t have laid the groundwork to not fall back into old habits, because there’s no need – he’s not tempted right now.
I agree I think he means it right now, but he doesn’t seem to have a strategy for remaining faithful not based on the wrong assumption that his feelings for her will always make him barely tempted.
Is the fact that Stacy is fifteen years younger creepy here? She’s definitely over thirty/forty years old, so even if Richard pervs after younger women (previous comic) I don’t think that’s what’s at play here?
Minimum age of 36 if she had Amber at 18. 34 if she was an early mother at 16. Conversely, I think the strip where Richard met her implied they were both alumni (though clearly not at the same time), so 22+18=40. Which would make Richard 55… who then had Joe at 37.
Well, that passes the “half your age plus seven” test at least. I’m kinda starting to hope Richard can stumble into success here somehow… But the odds do seem to be against it with his track record…
Pushing it but certainly not impossible. A cousin started dating her future husband when she was 25 and he 50. And they stayed together until he died at 75 or so.
The part that’s creepy is Richard treating it as a desirable thing because the fetishizing of youth is gross and disrespectful at best and predatory at worst.
When I was 16 I dated a 22 year old briefly (legal in the UK). I was the mature one in the relationship. And I think my Saturday job was probably better paid and more reliable than the temping he was doing. So the age gap didn’t seem like a huge deal to me – until I took a step back and looked at how much of a kick he was getting out of dating a 16 year old school girl. Then ick…
Exactly. When I was 21 and a senior in college I dated a high school senior (17) for awhile. She’d been in school with some other people in my circle of college friends, so we got to know each other that way. Wasn’t a big deal to anyone.
I don’t think I even considered legality until after the fact. It was though. 🙂
I truly hope that both Joe and Richard are changing their ways now. Joe seems to be learning that already and as for his dad? Well let’s hope for Amber and her mom’s sake that he really won’t cheat on her. And may the gods have mercy on him if he does for Joe and Amber will not.
Okay. First things first, last panel is an INCREDIBLY inappropriate way to talk to your 18 year old kid, wow. Like I know he’s Joe, but he still doesn’t need to hear about his parent’s sex life.
Middle panels, genuinely sweet, we’ll see if that holds.
First panel is WORRYING AS SHIT, unless Richard means “I can’t do that because Stacy is in the universe.” Any other interpretation bodes poorly for his ability to stay monogamous.
I’m worried it means more like “then sorry, I just can’t give up ogling and making sexual references to the barely legal women who currently exist in my proximity”
I don’t think that’s worrying. Joe was basically asking him to stop having sex at all. Or at least that’s my first reading. Maybe he meant “stop *talking* sexually, like you’re thinking about it all the time”, but it’s hardly clear.
Yeah, I took it as “stop being a sexual being entirely”, since Joe’s seemingly seen Richard fuck up quite a few things in his and Joe’s lives. It also was presumably hyperbolic.
I think to Joe, his father being sexually active at all is going to lead to people getting hurt. He resents his father and how he betrayed Joe’s mother so much that Richard being sexually active is (from Joe’s perspective) in and of itself a bad thing. Following that logic, however unrealistic it may be, Richard giving up sex would be the only way for Joe to trust him.
Why is there something wrong with telling your kids about your sex life? I mean, if they don’t want to know, sure, but what exactly is the big deal otherwise?
There’s a right way and a wrong way. The right way: when you’re doing it to normalize healthy sexuality for your teenager, omitting any details and framing it as a normal part of life, not sensationalizing it. Or, it can be okay once your kid is all grown up themself (read: not a teenager) and okay with discussing it with you.
The wrong way: literally everything about what Richard has done so far.
Eh, I don’t see it as problematic. Richard knows Joe isn’t exactly a shrinking violet when it comes to all matter sexual, so he can stand hearing about his father’s very vague implications of kinky stuff.
Joe clearly disapproves and doesn’t want to hear about it. Under those circumstances you don’t talk about sex details to ANYONE, least of all your kid.
It doesn’t have to be harmful for it to be wildly inappropriate. You don’t talk about your sex life with someone who doesn’t want to hear about it it’s just not polite or respectful behaviour.
It’s also not really very helpful when you’re trying to convince him that you’re serious about the relationship and not just in it for the sex.
Which is of course the point of having him say it.
Fair enough, but considering they are father and son, and considerung what we’ve seen of their relationship so far, I’d rather put it in the realm of “nuisance” than “inappropriateness”.
If you want us to not start out in the gutter, you might need to consider writing “rolling his ball”. At least, if you are talking about bowling…
I was really confused too after, like Loki, starting out in the gutter.
It’s a tricky thing to accurately get across, especially in more stylised art such as in DoA- even ignoring the fact that how much someone shows their age can vary hugely. I don’t think 15 years is that large of a gap though- not at 40/55. Hell, Stacy is likely the more emotionally mature of the two, from what little we know of Richard.
I’m trying to figure out what kind of mood I was in last night, but I’m pretty sure a “surprisingly big gap” was more a comment on their appearances compared to their ages. But yeah, true, people definitely age differently (and the last few comics gave hints that Richard’s older than I thought). I didn’t know their ages beforehand, though, so thanks!
Was he, even? That is coming on SUPER STRONG for a very fresh relationship. That’s more like a new flavor of “you are approaching relationships the wrong way”. Maybe a more morally, uh, good, one, but not generally one that’s more conducive to a healthy long term monogamous relationship, either.
Sometimes couples do develop fast. And this one *started* by having instant-pickup sex. Part of it will be a function of interaction: are they calling every day and seeing each other every few days or more, or having biweekly dates? Event time is kind of more relevant than calendar time.
They first slept together a month ago, but in the real world that was way back in 2013. Everything in Dumbing of Age happens at ludicrous speed when you try to cram seven years of storylines into about a month and a half of in-comic time. Amber nearly killed a rapist in self-defense, and Ruth was hospitalized for considering suicide. Both missed exactly two days of school.
If Richard waiting a reasonable amount of in-comic time to decide he loved Sarah, we’d all be dead of old age by then.
So Stacy here like shortpacked is completely irresistable as long as she is out of her terrible marriage. Good for her… I think. I do hope she is not very attached to Richard yet. And while I do hope Richard does try to be a better date to here I cannot help but to feel he is setting himself to fail :S :S
It occurs to me that Richard has been going out for a month with a woman who responded positively to sudden shoulder rub and a “college wild oats sown” pickup line. And, from the last panel, has apparently been continuing to respond and participate enthusiastically. It’s possible this has validated some of Richard’s horndog expressiveness (even while restraining his pickup behavior, at least for now), because they’re *both* middle-aged horndogs. And that if Stacey weren’t consumed with worry over Amber, she’d be dropping brain-bleaching hints to her daughter about why she’s happy with her life.
Am I the only one who truly and without reservation likes Richard? Yea he’s a Pervy dick but im fully capable of liking someone while remaining cool gnizant of their faults
No no I like him too, I’m just waiting for the shoe to drop is all. After all most fathers that have received large amounts of screen time in the comic have been. . . distasteful to be polite.
I am starting to like him a little as he opens up more to the point I do want him to genuinely change rather than say, get face punched and sent to jail, because he does seem to be making a real effort, and his excitement of Joe getting to know her and the fact he drove down just because Stacy was anxious about breaking rules and possibly hurting Amber does show he is at least trying to be there for her.
He is not doing perfect and is making a lot of mistakes still with his behaviour, but he is trying.
I like him too. I think he’s rough around the edges but I don’t think he’s a bad guy. You can care about someone AND be excited about boning them. They’re not mutually exclusive. And while my parents never went into explicit details, they were open and honest about their sex life. They thought it was healthy and I don’t disagree.
I find him adorable, like a confused puppy that isnt quite sure where its supposed to pee if not on the carpet.
Just keep it away from the carpet (away from Amber and other girls her age) and all is fine.
If Amber, Joyce, Ruth, Billie or Sarah end up punching him tho, I’ll bring a baseball bat.
(It’s perfectly possible to like a fictional character while appreciating what a massive dick they are)
He is showing a lot more depth than he appeared to have, but he still seriously needs to grow. His son is still showing more emotional maturity than him. Still I am kinda rooting for him to grow.
So like. We didn’t “almost” have character growth. He isn’t taking a step back from caring about Stacy as a human just because he ALSO is into having sex with her. Sex is fun. For most people. It’s not creepy! To! Like! Having! Sex! Fifteen years is not a big deal at his age!
His major misstep here is that he’s oversharing with his son. Not cool. But seriously to hell with this idea that it’s creepy for someone to be like “I love my partner so much, and they’ve been through some shit and I want to protect them, and they’re an amazing person, and the sex is fantastic, and you would not believe the things we have done together oh my god.” That’s not wrong!
So my most recent ex was twenty years older than me. Almost to the day. FWIW. For us, that wasn’t a status marker but a sticking point that almost cost us the relationship early on. So I do think Richard has a problem in seeing “fifteen years younger” as a check mark in sexiness. But that’s a cultural norm for many, if not most, people of that generation and america more broadly. So it’s not really fair to jump all over him for that when it comes at the end of all of this serious emotional journey.
Jesus. There’s nuance and there’s character growth and dudes having sexuality is NOT WRONG. Regardless of their age.
I agree with this. I also take issue with how many commenters seem to completely write off being sexually promiscuous as inherently immoral. But I still get a bad vibe from him. I don’t think a lot of the behaviours people are describing are bad, but i definitely get a creepy, disrespectful vibe to a lot of how he approaches it
What’s the moral difference between Joe’s dad and Walkyverse Walky, who spent a third of Joyce and Walky banging his wife in various wacky ways, and then another third making other people (especially Joe, oddly enough) uncomfortable by talking about his sex life?
Walky didn’t have an established pattern of cheating on his wife?
Walky didn’t have a pattern of hitting on nearly every woman he saw? (Including his son’s peers.)
Walky didn’t boast about how much younger his new partner was?
Are we really pretending that we live in a society where dudes having sexuality is treated as wrong basically ever? Hell, society at large struggles to condemn male sexuality even when it’s expressed in the form of rape so I’m sorry but I don’t have a lot of sympathy for Mr. “I’m Like 50 But Teenage Girls Are Hot.” Richard is a gross dude who shoves his sexuality in other people’s faces with no regard for their comfort and it’s bad.
Treated as wrong by conventional society as a whole? Very unlikely. Most of the time when society condemns male sexuality, it’s only in public to keep up the facade of spiritual purity. Treated as wrong basically ever? As in is male sexuality ever treated as something negative anywhere? Definitely.
Aside from how the society I presume we’re addressing here openly condemns all male sexuality that isn’t directed towards a person of the opposite sex, which I understand is implied in said society’s hypocrisy, but it’s still a form of male sexuality that is condemned by society, there was also a particular branch of feminism in the 70s and 80s who created the stereotype from which the MRA draw all their fodder for their messed up conspiracies.
That branch did exist however, those who adhered to it did condemn male sexuality as inherently wrong and any person who possessed it it as unreliable and dangerous, a perspective we can see a remnant of in modern day terfs. And while it is no longer an influential part of the feminist movement, many of those who believed in it in the 70s and 80s are still alive to this day and still keep to their old beliefs. However outdated and irrelevant they may be today, they do still exist.
Not that that makes Richard any less gross mind you or is particularly relevant to him specifically since there’s probably not a lot of them around campus to overhear this conversation and condemn him for it.
Yup, and he’s definitely almost guaranteed to be at least 50 here. Cause if Amber is 18 and we assume Stacey was around 18 when she gave birth, and Joe’s dad is 15 years older than her, then that adds up to 51. Like, he’s the full stereotype creepy old guy sexually harassing younger women.
“Around” 55, I believe it was. And her around 40. I don’t really have any issue with that age pairing in a relationship, just with his boasting about how much younger she is.
And him hitting on Sarah would have been creepy if he was a decade younger.
Not exactly; I’m saying that the sub community of writer feminism has, at times, over-corrected by reacting to male sexuality, especially when it’s hetero, as an automatically toxic thing. That’s often been the case for how people talk about Joe – the specific issues with his behavior tended to get obscured under “ewww, guy who wants to have sex with women.” I see a similar thing happening with Richard.
I have seen something to that degree in many, many shipping communities where a fandom will only acknowledge a character as bisexual if they end up in a relationship with a person of the same sex. The moment they start a relationship with a character of the opposite sex, the character is denounced as heterosexual and their entire character progression condemned as queer-baiting. But shippingcommunities tend to be very toxic in general, so that might not be saying much.
Given how messed up Richard is, I feel more inclined to forgive Joe for being a terrible person like he is, since he obviously wants to be better, despite having a problem with that.
This is what I’ve been getting a vibe for a while now too. Richard’s shenanigans are shameful… but at the same time he’s probably about 300% more honest then Blaine. I think they’re both very honest with each other about their level of boning and wanting to bone.
I would not be surprised if we find out Richard has had fisticuffs with Blaine off screen. Richards’s reaction seems like he’s met the asshole first person.
I feel like this is one of those times where format makes it difficult to know how to take things. Like, in the context of reality, I find that last panel to be a gross father-son interaction. But this isn’t reality– it’s a comic strip that, when not in serious drama territory, tends to end strips with a joke or at least something meant to be humorous.
So I do think Richard is meant to be kind of gross in the last panel, and that his grossness in some way is meant to work with the humor. I’m just not sure how much to hold it against him as a character when it is in part the medium that he’s in.
Eh, the comic strip punchlines are a matter of pacing (putting the thing that would be funny in the last panel and lining the rest so it does end up funny), not a matter of making up something that wouldn’t be there otherwise. It can be a punchline AND a gross father-son interaction
The way I took it is that he’s sincere up to that point, but he’s still too insecure talking about feelings to not try to rationalize having them with a boner update
Well, he doesn’t say “save” here; he does say “protect.” As far as what Stacy wants…it could be complicated, and we haven’t seen them discuss their relationship.
My impression currently is that Stacy does appreciate being shown care by him, and what Richard’s saying here is how he intends to show care. Whether they’re ultimately on the same page about what their relationship means and should look like remains to be seen.
He could help her with legal protection. Having gone through a divorce I’m sure he knows some good attorneys who can handle whatever grandstanding ambulance chaser is representing Ryan. Right now Stacy could use all the help she can get.
I got the impression when they first met that they were old classmates, but having examined that strip again there isn’t any evidence of that so this isn’t a retcon.
While this does ruin the moment I don’t think Joe would believe Richard if he didn’t add a detail about amazing sex.
“Yeah, that girl you just talked to have a horrible, fucked up home life with an evil father (remember – the one your best friend had trouble with) with actual mob connections… but never mind all that. Let’s talk about my sex life.”
Richard just had to say that in the final panel and ruin this otherwise nice strip. Also, math makes that final panel have even more creepiness to when he tried flirting with Sarah.
Well, yeah, this is still Dumbing of Age, and since Richard has aged more that most characters, he’s obviously got dumb to spare. Simple math… or something like that.
I think we all knew that there was physical as well as emotional abuse in the O’Malley marriage. I can’t help but wonder what Stacey had to go through to protect Amber from the worst of Blaine’s behaviour.
Now, I expect a little criticism for posting this but I don’t have a problem with panel 5. Richard expresses himself in the emotionally immature way that I would expect from a Rosenthal but, ultimately, any good relationship of this nature must include physical desire for each other. The only question that needs to be answered that really has any validity is whether Richard can stick with his interest or will he grow ‘bored’ in time.
I’m right there with you! He said “plus” – it’s just a nice bonus (“bone us?”) to him, not the main thing. You can’t expect a leopard to change his spots AND stop enjoying licking himself.
To object to what he’s saying is either demonstrating an uncharitable lack of belief in the ability of people to get genuinely change, or a facet of sex negativity rearng (“rear end-ing”?) its head (“Huh huh. You said ‘head,’ Beavis. Huh huh, huh, huh huh, huh huh.”)
Yeah, there are definitely boundary issues at work here, aren’t there. I’m wondering if inappropriate levels of detail from his father is another cause for Joe objectifying women.
Sometimes, abusive upbringings can take on odd forms.
Fair point, but as a (fellow?) ace I’ll give Benrg a pass in thIS context Considering mutual sexual attraction Is Essentially The Basis FFor Their Particular RElationship.
Apologies For all The random capitaL l3tters, MY kindLE Keyboàrd is quite misbehaving and it’s too much a pain in the ass to fix as I go along.
I think that last bit is the deeper problem with that panel. Not just that he’s saying it to his son, though that’s creepy. Not just the boasting about her being younger, though that’s creepy.
It’s that by switching back to sex, he’s undermining all his nice talk about how he’s barely noticing other women and he’s going to be exclusive and everything. Maybe. As long as the sex with her stays hot and exciting enough. Is he really committed to not cheating even when there’s a lull and he does start noticing other women? Because it will happen.
Honestly, the last panel here is the least worrisome for me. I have more of a problem with the second one. “I’ve known this woman for about a month and she is the love of my life.” That implies to me that Richard is prone to rash decisions. Also he appears rather clingy, as paradoxical as that sounds given what we have learned of him so far.
Yup, especially panel 2 where he describes it as “a need” rather than a want. Like, it doesn’t feel like he wants to be a better guy because he believes in this relationship or himself, but that he’s using Stacey’s previous trauma as almost a test or a bar for himself, like, it’s his chance to prove something about himself.
It’s a very self-focused way of looking at the relationship as a whole which when combined with how early into the relationship he is and his intensity with which he inserted himself into his partner’s life definitely raises some major red flags.
It’s also possible this is his pattern: To fall very hard for someone, ride the new relationship and then when it gets less intense, move on to someone else. EAch time expecting this one to be the real thing. The one that will last.
Speaking of Blaine, how likely is this scenario: Post Amazi-Girl putting him in ICU, his ’employers’ have been keeping him at arms length because he has too much official scrutiny focussed on him at present. That may actually make him angrier as he might be finding it difficult to find ‘work’.
Considering how often people like Blaine feel emasculated when they don’t have a job and how easily that makes them liable to lash out at other people they believe to judge their umemployment as feminine and/or weak, I’d say it’s very likely.
I know the last panel was meant to be an obvious punchline, but to be honest, I’m kind of sick of people playing age-gap relationships and kinky folks for laughs. Traditional Dominant (or older) male/submissive female relationships don’t have it as bad, but alternate kinky lifestyles, or those where the female partner is older than the male, still tend to be looked on as “look at those freaks!”
However two (or more, if that’s their thing) consensual, informed adults choose to get their rocks off in the bedroom is none of your business, people, and we shouldn’t be judging them for it.
I don’t think anyone here’s concerned about any kinky sex. Maybe about what his focus on that aspect says about Richard and the likelihood he’s actually changed, but that’s different.
There’s a thing that happens when you’re a dude or assumed to be a dude where you’re confronted with the sheer impossible lowness of the bar set for you. Where “being decent” is so unfairly, insultingly low thanks to the misbehavior of the worst of folks that you can end up missing the point.
Like, it’s really easy to get into a headset of “I’m not X, so I’m doing all right” or miss smaller actions that still have a negative impact because people are willing to overlook or normalize them.
This can lead to folks feeling “blindsided” after a while as eventually someone comments on the lesser awfulness they are committing and it can be easy for them to feel ultra defensive (after all, it’s not like they did ultra-terrible action X).
And I feel this moment is a beautiful encapsulation of that. Both Joe and Joe’s dad are locked in a moment of comparing themselves to people they see as monsters. Joe with his dad. Joe’s dad with Blaine. And by getting lost in the comparison, they lose track of what they are themselves doing.
Like, Joe completely normalized a regular dehumanization and mistreating of every woman he ever met, including close friends, because it was different from his dad. And his dad is normalizing a whole lot of fucked up common sexual attitudes and unhealthy relationship practices because it’s different from a literal physical abuser.
And I feel that’s a difference Joe will need to get to complete his growth into a decent guy, that it’s not about clearing that low bar, but about holding himself to a true and meaningful standard that values people as whole people.
Am I the only one who is wondering what Richard could be doing with Stacy that JOE wouldn’t believe?? I mean obviously Richard and Joe are pretty up front about sexual matters. And even though emotionally Joe’s a toddler he seems pretty experienced in (heterosexual) sexual matters. However, I am thankful that Richard didn’t whip out his phone and say, “Wanna see pictures?” But I admit to my share of human curiosity.
Maybe Stacy’s a furry and just introduced Richard to a whole new world of confused boners he never knew he wanted to explore. Maybe she’s gotten him to experiment with her Bad Dragon collection. Or maybe Richard is a lot less experienced than we give him credit for and these weird and unusual kinks are actually very plain.
He has access to a sex swing. It’s not knows if he owns it. (I can decide if it’s kinkier to town one, or have a person you’re on good enough terms with to lend you one. And I’m not kink-shaming.)
Although, two months into college, I have the feeling Danny would know if it were being stowed in their dorm room.
Panel 2: This panel actually deeply unnerved me and I had to take a second step back to fully figure out why.
I think it’s largely the focus. It’s not on Stacey or her needs, it’s on Joe’s dad’s needs and on his needs to fit a very particular patriarchal role of protector and provider that necessitates viewing Stacey as a less active participant in her own relationship.
Stacey becomes in this construction, the patriarchal wife. A thing to protect, a thing whose presence “tames” the man and “helps him grow”, a thing to love.
What are her dreams and desires? What does she want in a relationship? Does she even feel comfortable in traditional relationship models after the disaster of Blaine? Who knows? Joe’s dad doesn’t care or even seem to acknowledge it’s a question. He likes her so obviously, traditional path, traditional roles.
And it gets creepy in the first part. “Never ever leaving her”? Not even if it’s making her unhappy? Like, I don’t think Joe’s dad intentionally means that, but it’s a slip-up resulting from the fact that he seems to view Stacey as his “second-chance” or “redemption”. As a tool to demonstrate he can do traditional monogamous relationships “right” rather than a full human being with desires and feelings in her own right.
And that gets more worrisome and red-flaggy when you think of how quick this relationship has been and how entangled he felt he was entitled to be. Like, him and Stacey have been dating for what? About a month now? So still very much in NRE and the endorphin-glow of a new sexual relationship.
And already Joe’s dad is taking about forever and how Stacey is going to make him a new man and most worryingly of all… Joe’s dad is feeling fully entitled to make unilateral decisions about how to engage with Amber/AG, inserting himself as a traditional patriarch chiding the daughter for “upsetting the fragile mother”*.
*And that’s always going to be something that leaves me cold given that was the preferred tactic of my dad when he was trying to bully me into reparative therapy.
Like, do I think he’s going to be a Blaine? No. But he’s showing signs of being a controlling and unhealthy romantic partner who is more obsessed about status and what Stacey does for him than her needs and wants.
Thank you.
Ever since Richard said they were monogamous there was the question of why would he not even bring the possibility of an open relationship up to Stacey first before dismissing it. It felt like he had this idea in his head that he is really in love this time so of course his love for Stacey is going to make him into a better man which of course means monogamy.
And then there is the question would Stacey even care if he gets permission first which I don’t think he’s even asking and it makes sense to bring it up now as a possible decision so she can decide if the idea of an open relationship sounds good to her, if it limits how far she would be willing to go with him and put it in his hands if keeping it open is worth the limits it puts on the relationship, or if she wants to help him figure out how to stay monogamous when he starts being tempted again.
I think this shows the biggest difference between Joe and Richard and why Joe’s progression is much more hopeful. Because Joe is actually showing a willingness to reflect on his past actions and why they were wrong. How and why his past behaviour caused more harm than he previously believed. Richard only seems to acknowledge that his past behaviour was wrong without giving any thought to what made them wrong. It’s not about what he needs to do to change, just what he has to not do. Don’t be violent, don’t be jealous, don’t cheat and don’t be controlling and the rest will fix itself. As Stacey is his way out, the rest of the responsibility on making him a better man falls on her shoulders.
Maybe it’s because he’s still an adolescent and thus less liable to be bound by habit, but Joe seems more willing to not only accept that what he has been doing was wrong, but that if he wants to change, he can’t rely on other people to change him. He needs to figure out a lot of things for himself because there’s a monumental difference between accepting what other people say and actually thinking about it and reaching a similar conclusion.
Oh wow yikes I kinda missed the connotations of that panel amidst the much more overt red flags that are the rest of everything he’s said since he appeared.
Panel 3: Again, there’s some positive here. He’s recognizing that there’s scars, that there was real harm done and so on, but it runs into the same problem we’ve talked about.
And that’s it’s still about comparing himself to the worst and making it about him and his growth. It’s about him setting himself the low bar of “I’m not a literal physical abuser” and getting lost because of it, because he’s not focusing on his real flaws and his real barriers to addressing them.
Instead he’s just sort of going “well, I won’t be that and I want to do right, and she’ll make me right, so I’ll just believe really hard and it’ll all be okay”.
And the worrisome thing is because it’s setting Stacey as the thing “making him better”, it opens the possibility of him blaming Stacey when it turns out he’s the same type of person he’s always been once the NRE fades.
Panel 4: That all said, this moment is sweet. Because love is almost always sweet in all it’s forms.
Panel 5: I talked about this a lot yesterday and I stand by it. The creepy obsession with youth and sexual utility by old guys in our society and the way we normalize it is a major problem and often papers over some nasty aspects of rape culture.
Like, there really is a pervasive, unhealthy cultural idea that older men who date younger women are “winning” some sort of manliness battle and proving their virility or masculinity and it leads to a really gross overall culture where predators preying on people who are new or young or without full defenses is normalized.
At the worst case, you get situations like Hollywood where there was a normalized constant abuse of almost every young star and starlet by old assholes exploiting their power. But it appears in many other forms as well.
It’s shown in the weird envious hagiographies given to serial abuser and rapist Hugh Hefner, in the dismissive way we treated Trump’s rapes, and in way too many communities (and especially sexual communities) where the new and the young are eaten up by predators.
It’s shown in how we have to “train” our kids to resist and dodge creepers on the street or on the trains and in how our entire manufactured porn scene makes a target out of youth and a game out of ages.
It’s a societal problem, not a sign of healthy sexuality.
Like, if he just happened to be dating someone 15 years younger, that’s suspect but only one data point. But the fact that he’s treating this the way he is, as this victory he has achieved, as something to brag about, is part and parcel of the problem.
And I’m so damn tired of it. I’m tired of my kink scenes being overrun with creepy old dom men preying on every new femme sub who walks into the scene, turning it into a creepy game.
I’m tired of my middle school students having to learn on the fly how to handle being sexually harassed in public because old predators have normalized sexualizing their puberties.
I’m tired of the whole damn youth obsessed culture and the damage it does to both sex-positive spaces and to society in general.
And so yeah, Joe is absolutely right to be fed up with it and I hope he recognizes it and connects it to the similar way he’s internalized the fetishization of youth and aided predators like his dad with his list.
^This. I’m an older cis white male. I have some faint understanding of the privileged position I occupy in our society, but I look around at the crap minorities have to put up with, and I think THIS IS NOT THE SOCIETY I WANT TO LIVE IN! I can’t change it by myself (nor would it be appropriate for me to impose my views on society, even if I could), and that Trump is president says that changing it will be an uphill battle. Battle may even be the right word, though I hate to think we have to fight the Civil War all over again. But the fact that Hollywood moguls are finally being held to account is a promising sign. It’s a small step on the long road to social justice, and those who think their self-worth is measured by looking down on others will resist it every step of the way. But it is happening. If the so-called “Deep State” can prevent Trump from starting a nuclear war, it will go on happening. I have lived long enough to see society change markedly. It’s not enough, and it’s not nearly fast enough (but impatience with history tends to lead to violence) but things ARE getting better.
I’ve been thinking recently about this anime trope. It was the zombie train anime that reminded me of it… it takes a young girl and makes her life, like, absolutely horrible. Exploited in nearly every way possible, treated like a thing and not a person… in a way that’s usually distinctly -disengaged- from her gender, though. A child soldier, a walking library, whatever.
Usually this is where the protagonist swoops in – and no matter how bad he is at relationships, as long as he clears the impossibly low bar of ‘realizes she has emotions’… or even the not-even-bar-more-like-pit of ‘patriarchal protectiveness’… well, he’s going to be better for her than her previous life. And so she imprints on him with 100% loyalty because no matter how shit he is, he’s still the best thing to have ever happened to her.
And even if there’s no protagonist to swoop in, the straight dudes in the audience still get this fantasy of ‘I would treat her better than that, and she would love me’. Where ‘better than that’ does not even touch on any actual possible relationship problems and goes from ‘notice she’s a girl’…
Whereas the reality of that kind of situation is that she may imprint on him, she’s going to be horribly screwed up from that treatment and need serious help to be even capable of normal human interaction.
Look at some of the work that’s been done trying to integrate former child soldiers into normal society.
Yup, that’s the point. It’s of course 100% realistic that she would imprint on him… and the trope is romanticizing that and pretending that she’s fine now and this new relationship fixes everything.
The most honest versions are like “yeah she’s fucked up and he’s fucked up and everything’s fucked up I guess u\/(-u-)\/u” but… still sexualize her the way anime does… and that is gross.
I don’t know how we as a society could ever escape sexualizing youth, for the same reason we sanctify and fetishize everything else from our youth. Most people wish they were young, youth represents excitement because it is experienced very intensely. It’s where ‘what could have been’ happened.
It sounds like you just wish people were better and didn’t like terrible things. People like sex, and they like power, and it is ugly when they meet. Would a huge uptick in objectifying men help, ’cause that’s the best I can see happening soon.
So many comments going “Oh he was almost there!”, and yes, that’s the joke, but this is… just not that terrible. Or terrible at all. It’s TMI for Joe, but that’s still someone who Richard trusts won’t tell it just everyone, and not, well, just everyone. He seems to really like her, he wants to be there for her, and grow with her, and he really likes having sex with her, and a good, healthy sexlife is nothing bad and nothing that should be shamed, in my opinion.
That’s not the problem with it, as so many comments have said. On its own, with no context, the sex comment wouldn’t have attracted any shaming response. I don’t think anyone has actually shamed him for that by itself.
There’s also an implication in the last panel and the whole scene that a good part of the reason he’s not going to cheat this time is how young and hot she is and how good the sex is.
Which has the ugly implication that the reason he cheated on Joe’s mom* is that she wasn’t young or hot enough or the sex wasn’t good enough.
Which is bullshit, but he might believe it.
hey that’s actually very cool, he can have all the sexual urges calmed by a very attractive young lady that has being emotionally devastated in the past
I can almost see the macho inside Richard struggling to find a downside in his mind, he wants to protect her sure but she also gives him everything he needs, a win win on that relationship
and whoever things sex shouldn’t be important in a relationship, it is important, only emotions can’t hold love, physical love is needed too
even if I despise cheating scumbags I also understand people grow and learn from their mistakes
For the moment. Until she can’t calm all his sexual urges. Then he’ll emotionally devastate her again and it’ll all be her fault for not fixing him properly.
This is not how cheating objectifying creepers get over their problems. They don’t just meet the right woman and she fixes everything for them.
Actually, I know of one person who decided to become monogamous when she fell for someone who made ist clear monogamy was mandatory if they were to become a couple. This has worked for nearly 20 years now.
But I know of more people who said they would be faithful and weren’t once the honeymoon phase was done.
And, mega creepy to tell your teenage kid so much about your sex life.
Stacy seems to be drawn with the same body type that Amber is… short, bordering on full figured, or at least not what would be considered “slender”. (And there were comments about Amber’s weight before… Ryan calling her ‘fat’, etc.) Yet in the last panel Stacy is described as “Super Hot” by Richard.
So, for all of Richard’s faults (his hitting on girls like Sarah, his cheating, etc.), I do have to give him some credit for being more accepting of certain body types than others might be.
…I know that, like, gross dudes on the internet who will never touch a woman and the fashion industry both think that having a body fat percentage high enough to support ovulation is horrifyingly fat, but I don’t think it’s that exciting to find a dude who is sexually attracted to women with dramatic hourglass curves. That’s not actually unusual or outside the realm of conventionally attractive traits. Other Rachel is drawn with a body type that it would be interesting for Richard to be into, Amber and Stacy are not.
It’s like when Dove is all “look at us, we have PLUS SIZE MODELS because we’re INCLUSIVE” and then they’re just stunningly gorgeous women with hourglass bodies and flat stomachs somehow and no fat rolls. Nope. No points.
Never said it would be “exciting” for someone like Stacy to find someone attracted to her, but as I said, she was described as “super hot”. So, its more than just “She’s willing…”.
Oh, you were doing so well . . . then blow it in the last panel. Also, I am confused, what does her being younger have to do with the type of sexual activity she engages in?
Here’s an aspect of Richard’s last comment that I haven’t seen talked about–though I’ve only skimmed, so maybe it has been. Richard isn’t talking about just what he likes/does sexually, but also what *Stacy* has done sexually. So how comfortable is Stacy with him revealing this information to his son? They don’t know each other, but Richard says here that he hopes they will get to know each other, and if the relationship ends up being long-term, they will. Stacy could be fine with Richard saying this, but she also could not be.
(Side story: It reminds me of when I was in high school and the boyfriend of a friend of mine told a group of people who knew both of them that one of his favorite things about their relationship was “doing it doggy-style.”
Anyway, I later learned that he was sexually abusive to her, so fuck that guy.)
Smite is good – very biblical, which is appropriate for DoA. Also “damn”, though that word seems to have little power nowadays. Perhaps “to Hell with him” – deliberately including the capital ‘H’ to make the point that you mean it literally.
Umm. I guess that sounds sarcastic and patronising. Sorry, that’s not what I meant. Women have always talked to each other about their relationships, so in the age of social media it shouldn’t be hard to arrange for abusive people to be ostracised.
Actually I wasn’t serious. The potential for abuse would be off the charts. But some sort of “bad tricks” list for the general population might be possible if libel suits could be avoided. There are places in the world where truth is not allowed as a defense against an accusation of libel.
I don’t know about every where (if telling the truth is not a defense this wouldn’t work) but what if the dating app had a list of phrases you could choose from which don’t directly accuse them of anything.
I got more physical than I really wanted and regreted it.
I found myself doupting my perception of reality when I was with them.
I neglected some friends I wish I kept a better relationship with.
I was often hoping things would get more physical than they did.
They would want to not have this feature in places where I really felt that way prove otherwise is not a legal defense, not let people review strangers to avoid sock puppets, and have the reviews anonomous (there is only so well they can do that) except to let people know if only one person complained or if it was a common complaint.
That’s a good way to go about it. By having people say how they felt about the date, without making specific claims as to what did or did not happen – even, for example “I felt afraid when with (X)” the point would be made.
Once a disgusting fuck up, always a disgusting fuck up. I hope Amber’s Mom gets a much use out of Richard as she can before she moves on to someone actually worth a damn.
Richard’s got a long way to go, but I like that we’re catching a glimpse of potential for him to become a better human being than the creep he currently is. At the very least, it’s evident that he genuinely likes Stacy for more than just the sex they’re having. I’m also enjoying how uncomfortable this is for Joe, because it’s great for reinforcing that it is creepy and gross to talk about women the way that Richard does.
Fifteen years younger? Did I misread before when they met up at parents’ day (or whatever it was) that they were both alumni from the same class and were rekindling an old flame?
Or did Richard finish up college after a 10+ year break, in which case, he was rekindling an old flame that had originally been just a bit over half his age the first time?
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So close, Richard.
I could see the punchline coming but I dared to hope otherwise
Then he crushed those hopes
And yet, he still switched back to Dick…
Warm eyes, emotions, seeming humanity! ….aaaand back to creepy.
There’s no reason he can’t be both?
So he likes sex, big whoop. I mean, probably innapropriate to tell your kid, but it’s really not that creepy, imo.
From what I’ve been seeing both in the comments and on social media, men liking sex and talking about it is horrible, and men should be shamed for it. It’s become okay to slut shame men
No. It’s because he has a history of caring more about sex that the feelings of women he’s with. He COULD try to find women who also want open relationships, but he hasn’t, so that’s why people are hard on him. His liking sex doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
He seems to really care about her feelings, really care about HER, though.
And that he likes having sex with her doesn’t really take anything away from that. Because that doesn’t seem to be his defining interest in her.
“Because that doesn’t seem to be his defining interest in her.”
where on earth are you getting that idea?
Are you people reading the same comic and comments I am?
The problem with Richard (and Joe) isn’t that they like sex or talk about it, it’s how they go about it.
And yet, the time when (as far as we can tell) he genuinely cares for someone and is committed to her happiness, he still can be demonised for mentioning that he likes having sex with her? That comment is literally implying that caring and loving is not enough, he must also become celibate in order for his redemption to be acceptable.
Well, Joe thinks that’s what it would take. Not “for his redemption to be acceptable”, but because he’ll keep hurting women.
But maybe it’s not the “I like sex” that’s creepy, but the part where he boasts about how she’s 15 years younger than him?
Or maybe it’s that some of us suspect he’s just swept up in the excitement of a new love and he’ll revert when it wears off and the focus on how great the sex was is clue to that.
Or hey, maybe he really did change, with no noticeable self-reflection or repentance or understanding that what he did before was a problem. All he needed was to meet the right woman (a previous abuse victim with known poor judgment when it comes to men) and all his problems will vanish. No need to struggle with his issues like his son is doing.
Does that sound like a Willis comic to you?
You are still slut shaming Richard and Joe though. Roz brags about her sexual prowess and its perfectly fine, but Joe or Richard, “nope thats not allowed, that’s toxic masculinity”
No. Fucking seriously I am not. “Slut shaming” is not saying anything bad about anyone’s attitude towards sex ever, regardless of how fucking shitty they are.
Joe had acknowledged he’s been an ass and he’s trying to change. If he’s being “slut shamed”, that’s not me. That’s him. That’s Willis. That’s the whole damn point of his story arc. I have no problem with Joe having all the sex he wants, providing he stops treating women like objects that exist for the purpose of him getting off. I had no problem with his encounters with Roz. The problem with his scene with Penny, was her position as TA, not with him.
Joe’s trying to change. That’s great. He’s going to struggle with it and screw up, that’s expected. He’ll get better because he’s a protagonist.
Richard is not going to walk on from off stage having resolved all the issues that screwed up Joe’s attitude towards women by finding the magic perfect woman for him. Not going to happen. If you want to believe it go right ahead and wait for the story to prove you wrong.
Plenty of men like sex. I like sex. There is absolutely nothing wrong with liking sex. There’s not even anything wrong with multiple partners, casual sex, any of that. It can be done ethically, without hurting anyone involved. From what little we know of Richard, his track record is not good and there’s no reason to believe he’s actually changed.
If some other male character without his track record came on and talked up his sex life, I wouldn’t have the slightest problem with it – other than maybe the intergenerational TMI thing.
This isn’t about Richard having sex with a lot of women. It’s about Richard repeatedly *cheating* on women, and the jarring (but expected) switch from him building up this “I’ve turned over a new leaf” thing, to mentioning her age and sexual prowess, is taken as something of an indicator that he is not going to change his ways. I can’t speak for everyone, but I definitely don’t have a problem with Richard sleeping around, just with him cheating on his partners, and Joe clearly shares that view.
This is literally just Richard saying he enjoys having sex with Amber’s mom.
There is zero mentioning or indication of cheating there.
“There is zero mentioning or indication of cheating there.”
so? c’mon, you’re not seriously suggesting we ignore the context of the rest of this comic and act like nothing counts except the exact words said right here, are you? 😛
So Stacy and Richard met, like, a month ago, right?
Uhhh.
Still probably an eternity to Richard.
And to us.
Also the fact that Joe’s dad is just Joe with a beard, but Stacy is like, obviously old enough to have an 18 year old child, makes it feel really weird to now hear that Joe’s dad’s actually secretly like… middle aged? Even if Stacy is a super young mom in her mid-late 30s, that puts Richard at at least 50. Is all his age hidden in the beard? Does he have a painting somewhere in an attic that’s been aging for him?
I feel like saying she’s 15 years younger is an exaggeration. This is Joe’s dad we’re talking about here after all. Stacy being a teen mom for Amber definitely makes sense though. I could see them being something like 47 and 37 or so.
Or, maybe she was 23 when she had her kid and Rich was 38. I could buy her being 40 and him being mid-50s.
We have official confirmation! She’s “about 40”, he’s “about 55”.
That sounds about right.
For whatever it’s worth, when my parents got married he was 32 and she was 22; it was almost six years later that I came along so by the time I was a freshman in college my dad was 56. It’s not all that far-fetched.
No I mean the age is fine, he just doesn’t look it, because of how he’s drawn as Joe with a beard. I think my mom and stepdad were like 50 and 56 respectively when I was 18.
some people brought up that he could be dying his hair though and I’ll buy that.
As an old geezer of “about 55” with a beard, my beard went grey about a half-decade ago, yet my head hair has barely a grey hair in it. Note that Richard’s beard does have grey patches; those aren’t highlights.
it’s not sculpted out of metal right onto his face? aw dang I am just all sorts of wrong about this guy’s look
More like he spends a lot of money on hair dye, except for the parts of his beard he keeps gray because he thinks it makes him look distinguished.
Well, it does! He has an awesome beard.
He also had gray hair around his ears a month ago. It’s black now, so definitely dyed.
Maybe he just washed the silver Sharpie out of it?
I only just realised that it WASN’T that his beard is super shiny :O although it does make me feel less confused by the gray pattern in my husband’s beard…
I dunno, my dad’s in his mid-to-late fifties and his hair’s still a solid dark brown while his beard’s been mostly grey for the last six years or so. Sometimes it works out that way.
It wouldn’t be weird for Stacy to have been 25 when Amber was born, and it also wouldn’t have been weird for Richard to be 40 when Joe was born. (My own dad was 42 when I was born.)
White hair is very genetic. I was going grey at 30 and my son had white hairs appearing while in high school. He started dyeing his hair at 30. I never have, because looking a little older does not hurt a man’s career and my wife didn’t care. You can have no hair, white hair or something like your original color quite young in life. Still, Dick might well dye his hair.
Shhhhh!!! Don’t talk about it! Everyone will want one!
Like someone said somewhere below, sometimes relationships develop fast. While that’s not my personal preference, it does happen, and people can be happy that way.
My grandparents met and knew each other for about two weeks before getting married and moving to Colombia, so since no one here has moved countries, they’re not the most impulsive relationship I know.
(My grandparents were married until my grandfather’s death; it can be hard to judge how well a relationship like that turned out, but I do have a memory of my grandpa once telling me when I was eight– which, now that I think of it, might have been around the time of his cancer diagnosis– “I’m so lucky I got to spend my life with your grandmother.” So I like to believe they were happy.)
It certainly can happen, but it’s far more common for relationships to deveolp fast and intense and then fall apart. New Relationship Energy is a powerful drug and when the rush wears off is when you find out if there’s really anything there. I also suspect your grandfather didn’t have Richard’s lousy track record.
Which he’s completely ignoring here. You’ll notice he’s not repentant. He’s not saying he knows he did wrong and hurt people before, but he’s really going to work on doing better this time. He just doesn’t feel like cheating right now and assumes that’ll last forever. It won’t.
And he’s still objectifying Stacy.
According to the Walkypedia DoA timeline, they met on Sept. 18, and it is now Oct. 10. Just over three weeks.
However, there was a recent post by Willis — for the life of me I cannot locate it — but it was to the effect that it two-thirds of the way through October in-universe. Which would put them at a month or more.
Are there diverging timelines in the DoA world? Is Huntokar involved somehow?
He said one-third, not two thirds.
It’s like watching a toddler taking steps.
He’s sitting, standing, lifting the foot and nope back on his ass.
There was an ad for Disney parks a long time ago about parents being disappointed that their child wasn’t ready to walk yet…but then the kid takes the first steps on the way to getting a hug from a CM in a Mickey costume.
Aww, I remember seeing that ad on home video. I was like ten years old or something.
Nicely imagined.
yes oh my god <3
youtried.jpeg
There was an attempt.
You think Stacy’s got it going on, wait until you meet her mom!
Stacy’s a mom who’s got it going on.
Never mind, Stacy should use him, abuse him, then lose him.
“abuse him” is a rather unfortunate choice of words.
Would you prefer she flirt, pervert, and desert him?
Or she could simply take, break, and forsake.
Ooh I like that last one, I enjoy the image of a broken Richard
Yeah…perhaps not the right circumstances for a Donna Meagle-Parks and Rec quote. *ahem* She should have a good time with him, use him for his money (well, accept the help I’m betting he willingly offers), then leave if/when the relationship no longer benefits her. Because he is skeevy.
Betting? Stacy straight-up said that he was helping them with their legal problems with Stabby McStabface’s parents.
Are you for real?
Saying neat-o in all seriousness convinced me he’s that much older than Stacy.
He lacks vocabulary to refer to people you like without reference how much sex they provide.
Damn, Dick. “Her ex-husband is so terrible that even I could pass that bar” is not a very compelling argument.
Given what we know of Blaine, it’s really, really not.
But on the other hand, I’m glad he has something to motivate him…?
I think when he says “I can do better for her” he is comparing to how he usually acts, not how Blaine acts.
My reading was “I know I’ve been awful but I want to be better. I don’t want to be another terrible person who hurts her.”
Same here.
I still hope he will talk with Stacey about his habit of chasing skirts, though. Keeping it a secret is still a massive dick move.
Don’t be silly. He’s not feeling any urge to do so right now, so he’s obviously changed and there won’t be any problems and there’s no need to bring it up.
… Obviously. We have nothing to worry.
*begins chants of “please please please make him realize he has to bring that specific matter before breaking her trust please”*
So, if I’m understanding this, telling somebody “by the way, I’m likely to cheat on you” and letting them live in paranoia for a month until it happens is kinder than just letting them live in ignorance until it happens?
(The presumption of course is that it’s going to happen either way.)
I think it is.
They can prepare emotionally – not make the same kind of emotional commitment. They can walk away.
Hell, maybe they’d be happy with an open relationship, as long as everything’s above board.
@Begbert2: They have to talk about it, yes. Because Stacey will inevitably have to ask herself if she’s actually okay with Richard’s flighty temperament or not. And it would be better if she could think about it without it being thrown at her face like a proof that yet again the man she’s seeing is abusing her.
At worst they break off a doomed relationship before too much damage has been done. At best, as thejeff said, they both find it advantageous to be in an open relationship.
So we have any reason to think she doesn’t know? From her conversations with both Amber and Joe, she seems to know the score and be happy with it.
Seeing how Richard has said in yesterday’s strip he didn’t tell her because he wants to go steady, if she knows, it’s not thanks to him. And if she knows and doesn’t say anything while… Well, she’s just asking to make the whole affair a lot more difficult than it could/should be.
She is Amber’s Mom.
So close, and yet so far.
Like, cards on the table here: I’m a recovering sex addict. I think Richard probably means what he’s saying here. I think he does genuinely care about Stacy, but that alone isn’t enough. I hope he’ll put the work in.
He’s showing no signs of it. Like yesterday, he didn’t say he was going to try or going to work at it, he just said he was barely noticing all the hot, technically legal girls. Eventually the thrill will wear off, even if only temporarily and he’ll start noticing again. And he won’t have laid the groundwork to not fall back into old habits, because there’s no need – he’s not tempted right now.
I agree I think he means it right now, but he doesn’t seem to have a strategy for remaining faithful not based on the wrong assumption that his feelings for her will always make him barely tempted.
Is the fact that Stacy is fifteen years younger creepy here? She’s definitely over thirty/forty years old, so even if Richard pervs after younger women (previous comic) I don’t think that’s what’s at play here?
Minimum age of 36 if she had Amber at 18. 34 if she was an early mother at 16. Conversely, I think the strip where Richard met her implied they were both alumni (though clearly not at the same time), so 22+18=40. Which would make Richard 55… who then had Joe at 37.
Well, that passes the “half your age plus seven” test at least. I’m kinda starting to hope Richard can stumble into success here somehow… But the odds do seem to be against it with his track record…
They’re both grown adults at more or less the same place in life, you know, raising young adult children and whatnot. Passes the sniff test, imo.
I think the creepy part is saying that to his son. The age gap isn’t that huge a deal, at their ages.
Ending up in a consensual (meaning everyone is of legal age of consent and competent for their decisions) relationship with an age gap? Fine.
Intentionally seeking out steep age gaps because you feel you have a leg up? Skeevy.
Thankfully, Richard and Stacey are the former, not the latter.
To me it’s pretty weird, I get age gaps but a decade and a half is pushing it, no matter how old they are
Ah, to be young again…
Pushing it but certainly not impossible. A cousin started dating her future husband when she was 25 and he 50. And they stayed together until he died at 75 or so.
The part that’s creepy is Richard treating it as a desirable thing because the fetishizing of youth is gross and disrespectful at best and predatory at worst.
Exactly. It’s not creepy that he’s dating someone 15 years younger. It’s creepy that he’s boasting about it.
When I was 16 I dated a 22 year old briefly (legal in the UK). I was the mature one in the relationship. And I think my Saturday job was probably better paid and more reliable than the temping he was doing. So the age gap didn’t seem like a huge deal to me – until I took a step back and looked at how much of a kick he was getting out of dating a 16 year old school girl. Then ick…
Attitudes do make a difference to these things.
Exactly. When I was 21 and a senior in college I dated a high school senior (17) for awhile. She’d been in school with some other people in my circle of college friends, so we got to know each other that way. Wasn’t a big deal to anyone.
I don’t think I even considered legality until after the fact. It was though. 🙂
Oh man, the Joe faces. So much more subtle than the Joyce faces.
I truly hope that both Joe and Richard are changing their ways now. Joe seems to be learning that already and as for his dad? Well let’s hope for Amber and her mom’s sake that he really won’t cheat on her. And may the gods have mercy on him if he does for Joe and Amber will not.
‘scuse me while I’m late to the party but uh
Joe’s dad is a Dick?
slowpoke.jpg
And a bone doctor.
Okay. First things first, last panel is an INCREDIBLY inappropriate way to talk to your 18 year old kid, wow. Like I know he’s Joe, but he still doesn’t need to hear about his parent’s sex life.
Middle panels, genuinely sweet, we’ll see if that holds.
First panel is WORRYING AS SHIT, unless Richard means “I can’t do that because Stacy is in the universe.” Any other interpretation bodes poorly for his ability to stay monogamous.
Presumably he is referring to Stacy in panel one with the “then sorry”, yeah.
I’m worried it means more like “then sorry, I just can’t give up ogling and making sexual references to the barely legal women who currently exist in my proximity”
I took it to mean “don’t be sexual with any person other than yourself”, and, well, it’s fair to say no to that.
I don’t think that’s worrying. Joe was basically asking him to stop having sex at all. Or at least that’s my first reading. Maybe he meant “stop *talking* sexually, like you’re thinking about it all the time”, but it’s hardly clear.
Yeah, I took it as “stop being a sexual being entirely”, since Joe’s seemingly seen Richard fuck up quite a few things in his and Joe’s lives. It also was presumably hyperbolic.
I think to Joe, his father being sexually active at all is going to lead to people getting hurt. He resents his father and how he betrayed Joe’s mother so much that Richard being sexually active is (from Joe’s perspective) in and of itself a bad thing. Following that logic, however unrealistic it may be, Richard giving up sex would be the only way for Joe to trust him.
Why is there something wrong with telling your kids about your sex life? I mean, if they don’t want to know, sure, but what exactly is the big deal otherwise?
There’s a right way and a wrong way. The right way: when you’re doing it to normalize healthy sexuality for your teenager, omitting any details and framing it as a normal part of life, not sensationalizing it. Or, it can be okay once your kid is all grown up themself (read: not a teenager) and okay with discussing it with you.
The wrong way: literally everything about what Richard has done so far.
Eh, I don’t see it as problematic. Richard knows Joe isn’t exactly a shrinking violet when it comes to all matter sexual, so he can stand hearing about his father’s very vague implications of kinky stuff.
Joe clearly disapproves and doesn’t want to hear about it. Under those circumstances you don’t talk about sex details to ANYONE, least of all your kid.
Joe disapproves, but I don’t think hearing this is in any way harmful. And no “details” were mentioned.
It doesn’t have to be harmful for it to be wildly inappropriate. You don’t talk about your sex life with someone who doesn’t want to hear about it it’s just not polite or respectful behaviour.
It’s also not really very helpful when you’re trying to convince him that you’re serious about the relationship and not just in it for the sex.
Which is of course the point of having him say it.
Fair enough, but considering they are father and son, and considerung what we’ve seen of their relationship so far, I’d rather put it in the realm of “nuisance” than “inappropriateness”.
is richard trying to make himself appear likable because it aint really working.
It’s like watching him rolling his balls and getting HALFWAY to the sweet spot between the 1 and 3 pin, only to divert directly into the gutter.
…. much like I’m sure some readers’ minds did when reading that simile.
No, actually, mine started in the gutter and was really confused.
If you want us to not start out in the gutter, you might need to consider writing “rolling his ball”. At least, if you are talking about bowling…
I was really confused too after, like Loki, starting out in the gutter.
Hmmm, I always thought richard and stacy were the same age. But I’m hilariously bad at guessing age, so *shrug*. Still a surprisingly big gap, though.
It’s a tricky thing to accurately get across, especially in more stylised art such as in DoA- even ignoring the fact that how much someone shows their age can vary hugely. I don’t think 15 years is that large of a gap though- not at 40/55. Hell, Stacy is likely the more emotionally mature of the two, from what little we know of Richard.
I’m trying to figure out what kind of mood I was in last night, but I’m pretty sure a “surprisingly big gap” was more a comment on their appearances compared to their ages. But yeah, true, people definitely age differently (and the last few comics gave hints that Richard’s older than I thought). I didn’t know their ages beforehand, though, so thanks!
Wait. Parents in webcomics have different ages?
Oh, Richard, you were doing so well for those first four panels…
Was he, even? That is coming on SUPER STRONG for a very fresh relationship. That’s more like a new flavor of “you are approaching relationships the wrong way”. Maybe a more morally, uh, good, one, but not generally one that’s more conducive to a healthy long term monogamous relationship, either.
Sometimes couples do develop fast. And this one *started* by having instant-pickup sex. Part of it will be a function of interaction: are they calling every day and seeing each other every few days or more, or having biweekly dates? Event time is kind of more relevant than calendar time.
They first slept together a month ago, but in the real world that was way back in 2013. Everything in Dumbing of Age happens at ludicrous speed when you try to cram seven years of storylines into about a month and a half of in-comic time. Amber nearly killed a rapist in self-defense, and Ruth was hospitalized for considering suicide. Both missed exactly two days of school.
If Richard waiting a reasonable amount of in-comic time to decide he loved Sarah, we’d all be dead of old age by then.
Stacy, not Sarah. (Weirdly common mistake, that, given that Sarah is one of the mains…)
It’s a bit unusual for a pair of 40 and 50-odd year old divorces to do it, but it happens.
you were so close, richard
Oh man… we actually had character growth there for a moment. I mean, we might have, we’ll see. I have my doubts.
So Stacy here like shortpacked is completely irresistable as long as she is out of her terrible marriage. Good for her… I think. I do hope she is not very attached to Richard yet. And while I do hope Richard does try to be a better date to here I cannot help but to feel he is setting himself to fail :S :S
It occurs to me that Richard has been going out for a month with a woman who responded positively to sudden shoulder rub and a “college wild oats sown” pickup line. And, from the last panel, has apparently been continuing to respond and participate enthusiastically. It’s possible this has validated some of Richard’s horndog expressiveness (even while restraining his pickup behavior, at least for now), because they’re *both* middle-aged horndogs. And that if Stacey weren’t consumed with worry over Amber, she’d be dropping brain-bleaching hints to her daughter about why she’s happy with her life.
Am I the only one who truly and without reservation likes Richard? Yea he’s a Pervy dick but im fully capable of liking someone while remaining cool gnizant of their faults
Cognizant*
No no I like him too, I’m just waiting for the shoe to drop is all. After all most fathers that have received large amounts of screen time in the comic have been. . . distasteful to be polite.
I don’t 100% like him, but I’m rooting for him to change.
Dibs on”Cool Gnizant” as my hypothetical band name.
I mean it sounds like you do have reservations though? “yeah he’s a pervy dick but”
I am starting to like him a little as he opens up more to the point I do want him to genuinely change rather than say, get face punched and sent to jail, because he does seem to be making a real effort, and his excitement of Joe getting to know her and the fact he drove down just because Stacy was anxious about breaking rules and possibly hurting Amber does show he is at least trying to be there for her.
He is not doing perfect and is making a lot of mistakes still with his behaviour, but he is trying.
As someone with the name Richard, I’m kind of hoping he turns out to be the first dad we actually like all the way through.
I like him too. I think he’s rough around the edges but I don’t think he’s a bad guy. You can care about someone AND be excited about boning them. They’re not mutually exclusive. And while my parents never went into explicit details, they were open and honest about their sex life. They thought it was healthy and I don’t disagree.
I find him adorable, like a confused puppy that isnt quite sure where its supposed to pee if not on the carpet.
Just keep it away from the carpet (away from Amber and other girls her age) and all is fine.
If Amber, Joyce, Ruth, Billie or Sarah end up punching him tho, I’ll bring a baseball bat.
(It’s perfectly possible to like a fictional character while appreciating what a massive dick they are)
He is showing a lot more depth than he appeared to have, but he still seriously needs to grow. His son is still showing more emotional maturity than him. Still I am kinda rooting for him to grow.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion … wait, no.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate…no those aren’t C-beams!
Richard, no.
So like. We didn’t “almost” have character growth. He isn’t taking a step back from caring about Stacy as a human just because he ALSO is into having sex with her. Sex is fun. For most people. It’s not creepy! To! Like! Having! Sex! Fifteen years is not a big deal at his age!
His major misstep here is that he’s oversharing with his son. Not cool. But seriously to hell with this idea that it’s creepy for someone to be like “I love my partner so much, and they’ve been through some shit and I want to protect them, and they’re an amazing person, and the sex is fantastic, and you would not believe the things we have done together oh my god.” That’s not wrong!
So my most recent ex was twenty years older than me. Almost to the day. FWIW. For us, that wasn’t a status marker but a sticking point that almost cost us the relationship early on. So I do think Richard has a problem in seeing “fifteen years younger” as a check mark in sexiness. But that’s a cultural norm for many, if not most, people of that generation and america more broadly. So it’s not really fair to jump all over him for that when it comes at the end of all of this serious emotional journey.
Jesus. There’s nuance and there’s character growth and dudes having sexuality is NOT WRONG. Regardless of their age.
I agree with this. I also take issue with how many commenters seem to completely write off being sexually promiscuous as inherently immoral. But I still get a bad vibe from him. I don’t think a lot of the behaviours people are describing are bad, but i definitely get a creepy, disrespectful vibe to a lot of how he approaches it
I haven’t seen anyone writing off being promiscuous–only doing it without the informed consent of your partner(s) or being creepy about it.
What’s the moral difference between Joe’s dad and Walkyverse Walky, who spent a third of Joyce and Walky banging his wife in various wacky ways, and then another third making other people (especially Joe, oddly enough) uncomfortable by talking about his sex life?
Two pages back, reread his dialogue with Amber.
Walky didn’t have an established pattern of cheating on his wife?
Walky didn’t have a pattern of hitting on nearly every woman he saw? (Including his son’s peers.)
Walky didn’t boast about how much younger his new partner was?
Are we really pretending that we live in a society where dudes having sexuality is treated as wrong basically ever? Hell, society at large struggles to condemn male sexuality even when it’s expressed in the form of rape so I’m sorry but I don’t have a lot of sympathy for Mr. “I’m Like 50 But Teenage Girls Are Hot.” Richard is a gross dude who shoves his sexuality in other people’s faces with no regard for their comfort and it’s bad.
Treated as wrong by conventional society as a whole? Very unlikely. Most of the time when society condemns male sexuality, it’s only in public to keep up the facade of spiritual purity. Treated as wrong basically ever? As in is male sexuality ever treated as something negative anywhere? Definitely.
Aside from how the society I presume we’re addressing here openly condemns all male sexuality that isn’t directed towards a person of the opposite sex, which I understand is implied in said society’s hypocrisy, but it’s still a form of male sexuality that is condemned by society, there was also a particular branch of feminism in the 70s and 80s who created the stereotype from which the MRA draw all their fodder for their messed up conspiracies.
That branch did exist however, those who adhered to it did condemn male sexuality as inherently wrong and any person who possessed it it as unreliable and dangerous, a perspective we can see a remnant of in modern day terfs. And while it is no longer an influential part of the feminist movement, many of those who believed in it in the 70s and 80s are still alive to this day and still keep to their old beliefs. However outdated and irrelevant they may be today, they do still exist.
Not that that makes Richard any less gross mind you or is particularly relevant to him specifically since there’s probably not a lot of them around campus to overhear this conversation and condemn him for it.
Yup, and he’s definitely almost guaranteed to be at least 50 here. Cause if Amber is 18 and we assume Stacey was around 18 when she gave birth, and Joe’s dad is 15 years older than her, then that adds up to 51. Like, he’s the full stereotype creepy old guy sexually harassing younger women.
I believe it was confirmed on Twitter that Richard is 55, although I could be remembering the number incorrectly.
So, ewwwwwwwwww.
“Around” 55, I believe it was. And her around 40. I don’t really have any issue with that age pairing in a relationship, just with his boasting about how much younger she is.
And him hitting on Sarah would have been creepy if he was a decade younger.
Not exactly; I’m saying that the sub community of writer feminism has, at times, over-corrected by reacting to male sexuality, especially when it’s hetero, as an automatically toxic thing. That’s often been the case for how people talk about Joe – the specific issues with his behavior tended to get obscured under “ewww, guy who wants to have sex with women.” I see a similar thing happening with Richard.
Writer feminism, really autocorrect?
I meant queer feminism.
And now i kinda wanna point out that I’m still on board with queer feminism. Completely. I just see this cultural norm as kind of an issue.
I have seen something to that degree in many, many shipping communities where a fandom will only acknowledge a character as bisexual if they end up in a relationship with a person of the same sex. The moment they start a relationship with a character of the opposite sex, the character is denounced as heterosexual and their entire character progression condemned as queer-baiting. But shippingcommunities tend to be very toxic in general, so that might not be saying much.
Given how messed up Richard is, I feel more inclined to forgive Joe for being a terrible person like he is, since he obviously wants to be better, despite having a problem with that.
Like, personal context is important. And given how messed up Richard’s approach to women is, I can kind of understand that Joe’s is kind of skewed.
How exactly do you sexually disengage from the universe? Wear horse blinders?
I guess you could medicate your libido into oblivion. Sounds like a bad idea, though.
Probably worse than trying to meditate your libido into oblivion, which I’ve heard is an option.
…something about a cell? *Sighs.* Monk jokes… You’d think they’d write themselves…
Stop referring to girls your son’s age as ‘sexually mature as-defined-by-the-state young women’?
I’m sure there are quite a few people that would find wearing horse blinders super sexual.
Very little about that surprises me anymore tbh. If its a thing, someone, somewhere finds it super hot.
It’s a rule almost as old as the Internet.
You’d think that rule would have, I don’t know, some sort of number or something.
I know for a fact there are. Saw a documentary abut it, even.
This is what I’ve been getting a vibe for a while now too. Richard’s shenanigans are shameful… but at the same time he’s probably about 300% more honest then Blaine. I think they’re both very honest with each other about their level of boning and wanting to bone.
I would not be surprised if we find out Richard has had fisticuffs with Blaine off screen. Richards’s reaction seems like he’s met the asshole first person.
…this was meant to be a response to DRS’s post, I don’t know what happened.
I feel like this is one of those times where format makes it difficult to know how to take things. Like, in the context of reality, I find that last panel to be a gross father-son interaction. But this isn’t reality– it’s a comic strip that, when not in serious drama territory, tends to end strips with a joke or at least something meant to be humorous.
So I do think Richard is meant to be kind of gross in the last panel, and that his grossness in some way is meant to work with the humor. I’m just not sure how much to hold it against him as a character when it is in part the medium that he’s in.
Eh, the comic strip punchlines are a matter of pacing (putting the thing that would be funny in the last panel and lining the rest so it does end up funny), not a matter of making up something that wouldn’t be there otherwise. It can be a punchline AND a gross father-son interaction
The way I took it is that he’s sincere up to that point, but he’s still too insecure talking about feelings to not try to rationalize having them with a boner update
I know I shouldn’t be rooting for it, but the alt-text actually loops this back around to endearing for me.
Does Stacy want Richard to save her, though.
Also does Joe already know in this continuity about Amber’s dad’s horribleness?
Well, he doesn’t say “save” here; he does say “protect.” As far as what Stacy wants…it could be complicated, and we haven’t seen them discuss their relationship.
My impression currently is that Stacy does appreciate being shown care by him, and what Richard’s saying here is how he intends to show care. Whether they’re ultimately on the same page about what their relationship means and should look like remains to be seen.
He could help her with legal protection. Having gone through a divorce I’m sure he knows some good attorneys who can handle whatever grandstanding ambulance chaser is representing Ryan. Right now Stacy could use all the help she can get.
A good guy but still a Dick.
You’re a good dick, Richard.
That looked like some actual emotions from Richard for a moment there.
God damnit Richard you raised my hopes for you and then ruined it all in the last panel ugh
I realize that last panel kinda fucks his point a pit but still, his point is still there.
I got the impression when they first met that they were old classmates, but having examined that strip again there isn’t any evidence of that so this isn’t a retcon.
While this does ruin the moment I don’t think Joe would believe Richard if he didn’t add a detail about amazing sex.
I’m pretty sure that Richard and Stacey were just a mutual lust one-night hook up… at first. Things changed from there on in.
It did kind of read like that. I think it’s just his technique. Act like there’s already a connection and maybe there will be one.
So close Richard. Then you had to ruin it by speaking in the last panel and making whatever hell that face is.
“Yeah, that girl you just talked to have a horrible, fucked up home life with an evil father (remember – the one your best friend had trouble with) with actual mob connections… but never mind all that. Let’s talk about my sex life.”
So close Dick, so close
Man-Sad Joe in panel 3 needs to be a gravitar.
Panel 4 I meant, this is what I get for not checking twice before I comment.
Richard just had to say that in the final panel and ruin this otherwise nice strip. Also, math makes that final panel have even more creepiness to when he tried flirting with Sarah.
Well, yeah, this is still Dumbing of Age, and since Richard has aged more that most characters, he’s obviously got dumb to spare. Simple math… or something like that.
I almost shot water out of my nose at the expression on Richards face in that last panel. Priceless.
I think we all knew that there was physical as well as emotional abuse in the O’Malley marriage. I can’t help but wonder what Stacey had to go through to protect Amber from the worst of Blaine’s behaviour.
Now, I expect a little criticism for posting this but I don’t have a problem with panel 5. Richard expresses himself in the emotionally immature way that I would expect from a Rosenthal but, ultimately, any good relationship of this nature must include physical desire for each other. The only question that needs to be answered that really has any validity is whether Richard can stick with his interest or will he grow ‘bored’ in time.
I’m right there with you! He said “plus” – it’s just a nice bonus (“bone us?”) to him, not the main thing. You can’t expect a leopard to change his spots AND stop enjoying licking himself.
To object to what he’s saying is either demonstrating an uncharitable lack of belief in the ability of people to get genuinely change, or a facet of sex negativity rearng (“rear end-ing”?) its head (“Huh huh. You said ‘head,’ Beavis. Huh huh, huh, huh huh, huh huh.”)
“get genuinely change” should not have a “get” in it. I’ll report for my public caning tomorrow (“that’s what SHE said!”)
The problem is not that he thinks that, the problem is that he’s saying this to his son.
Yeah, there are definitely boundary issues at work here, aren’t there. I’m wondering if inappropriate levels of detail from his father is another cause for Joe objectifying women.
Sometimes, abusive upbringings can take on odd forms.
I’d say the constant objectifying of women from his father is a larger cause of Joe doing the same.
I mean there’s kinda a problem with the whole “youth = hotness” thing too it’s not a particularly mature mindset.
“must include physical desire” Don’t forget ace people.
Fair point, but as a (fellow?) ace I’ll give Benrg a pass in thIS context Considering mutual sexual attraction Is Essentially The Basis FFor Their Particular RElationship.
Apologies For all The random capitaL l3tters, MY kindLE Keyboàrd is quite misbehaving and it’s too much a pain in the ass to fix as I go along.
Before reading the second paragraph, I wanted to decode a secret message fom the capital letters. 😀
Thank you.
I didn’t want to make a big deal out of it, but Ben’s comment really stung.
I think that last bit is the deeper problem with that panel. Not just that he’s saying it to his son, though that’s creepy. Not just the boasting about her being younger, though that’s creepy.
It’s that by switching back to sex, he’s undermining all his nice talk about how he’s barely noticing other women and he’s going to be exclusive and everything. Maybe. As long as the sex with her stays hot and exciting enough. Is he really committed to not cheating even when there’s a lull and he does start noticing other women? Because it will happen.
You were SO CLOSE
Honestly, the last panel here is the least worrisome for me. I have more of a problem with the second one. “I’ve known this woman for about a month and she is the love of my life.” That implies to me that Richard is prone to rash decisions. Also he appears rather clingy, as paradoxical as that sounds given what we have learned of him so far.
Yup, especially panel 2 where he describes it as “a need” rather than a want. Like, it doesn’t feel like he wants to be a better guy because he believes in this relationship or himself, but that he’s using Stacey’s previous trauma as almost a test or a bar for himself, like, it’s his chance to prove something about himself.
It’s a very self-focused way of looking at the relationship as a whole which when combined with how early into the relationship he is and his intensity with which he inserted himself into his partner’s life definitely raises some major red flags.
Oh wow, I didn’t even think of it like that, but looking at again . . .
It’s also possible this is his pattern: To fall very hard for someone, ride the new relationship and then when it gets less intense, move on to someone else. EAch time expecting this one to be the real thing. The one that will last.
That’s wild speculation though.
I was thinking the same thing actually. Between Richard’s blind enthusiasm and Joe’s 100% done-ness it really gives that impression.
And then there’s poor Stacy “fuck it let him be an asshole as long as he pays the legal bills”
I could see Joe opening tomorrow’s strip with: “But Dad, that’s what you said about Liz. And Kathy. And Johanna. And …”
But I don’t think Stacy sees it yet. Despite those comments.
Speaking of Blaine, how likely is this scenario: Post Amazi-Girl putting him in ICU, his ’employers’ have been keeping him at arms length because he has too much official scrutiny focussed on him at present. That may actually make him angrier as he might be finding it difficult to find ‘work’.
Considering how often people like Blaine feel emasculated when they don’t have a job and how easily that makes them liable to lash out at other people they believe to judge their umemployment as feminine and/or weak, I’d say it’s very likely.
Losing your job because you got beaten up by your daughter wouldn’t help those feelings.
I know the last panel was meant to be an obvious punchline, but to be honest, I’m kind of sick of people playing age-gap relationships and kinky folks for laughs. Traditional Dominant (or older) male/submissive female relationships don’t have it as bad, but alternate kinky lifestyles, or those where the female partner is older than the male, still tend to be looked on as “look at those freaks!”
However two (or more, if that’s their thing) consensual, informed adults choose to get their rocks off in the bedroom is none of your business, people, and we shouldn’t be judging them for it.
Especially since Dick did that exact same joke yesterday.
Given Joe’s expression, I’m pretty sure he feels the same way.
I don’t think anyone here’s concerned about any kinky sex. Maybe about what his focus on that aspect says about Richard and the likelihood he’s actually changed, but that’s different.
Just the way they’re drawn, I would have thought Stacy was older. Oh, well.
Wow…. a heart, then the last panel… I’m starting to like this guy!!! 🙂
Just in case there was any doubt where Joe gets it from…
Comic Reactions:
There’s a thing that happens when you’re a dude or assumed to be a dude where you’re confronted with the sheer impossible lowness of the bar set for you. Where “being decent” is so unfairly, insultingly low thanks to the misbehavior of the worst of folks that you can end up missing the point.
Like, it’s really easy to get into a headset of “I’m not X, so I’m doing all right” or miss smaller actions that still have a negative impact because people are willing to overlook or normalize them.
This can lead to folks feeling “blindsided” after a while as eventually someone comments on the lesser awfulness they are committing and it can be easy for them to feel ultra defensive (after all, it’s not like they did ultra-terrible action X).
And I feel this moment is a beautiful encapsulation of that. Both Joe and Joe’s dad are locked in a moment of comparing themselves to people they see as monsters. Joe with his dad. Joe’s dad with Blaine. And by getting lost in the comparison, they lose track of what they are themselves doing.
Like, Joe completely normalized a regular dehumanization and mistreating of every woman he ever met, including close friends, because it was different from his dad. And his dad is normalizing a whole lot of fucked up common sexual attitudes and unhealthy relationship practices because it’s different from a literal physical abuser.
And I feel that’s a difference Joe will need to get to complete his growth into a decent guy, that it’s not about clearing that low bar, but about holding himself to a true and meaningful standard that values people as whole people.
Yup…
Am I the only one who is wondering what Richard could be doing with Stacy that JOE wouldn’t believe?? I mean obviously Richard and Joe are pretty up front about sexual matters. And even though emotionally Joe’s a toddler he seems pretty experienced in (heterosexual) sexual matters. However, I am thankful that Richard didn’t whip out his phone and say, “Wanna see pictures?” But I admit to my share of human curiosity.
Maybe Stacy’s a furry and just introduced Richard to a whole new world of confused boners he never knew he wanted to explore. Maybe she’s gotten him to experiment with her Bad Dragon collection. Or maybe Richard is a lot less experienced than we give him credit for and these weird and unusual kinks are actually very plain.
The alt-text seems to confirm that interpretation given it’s making a joke about “netflix and chill”.
Experienced, but with lots of casual hookups with easily manipulated women.
OTOH, Joe’s mentioned his sex swing, so not completely vanilla.
He has access to a sex swing. It’s not knows if he owns it. (I can decide if it’s kinkier to town one, or have a person you’re on good enough terms with to lend you one. And I’m not kink-shaming.)
Although, two months into college, I have the feeling Danny would know if it were being stowed in their dorm room.
I’m guessing having sex in mid air while hanging from a grappling hook is something Amber’s mother taught her.
OT: that comic of yours looks interesting. I might check it out.
Panel 2: This panel actually deeply unnerved me and I had to take a second step back to fully figure out why.
I think it’s largely the focus. It’s not on Stacey or her needs, it’s on Joe’s dad’s needs and on his needs to fit a very particular patriarchal role of protector and provider that necessitates viewing Stacey as a less active participant in her own relationship.
Stacey becomes in this construction, the patriarchal wife. A thing to protect, a thing whose presence “tames” the man and “helps him grow”, a thing to love.
What are her dreams and desires? What does she want in a relationship? Does she even feel comfortable in traditional relationship models after the disaster of Blaine? Who knows? Joe’s dad doesn’t care or even seem to acknowledge it’s a question. He likes her so obviously, traditional path, traditional roles.
And it gets creepy in the first part. “Never ever leaving her”? Not even if it’s making her unhappy? Like, I don’t think Joe’s dad intentionally means that, but it’s a slip-up resulting from the fact that he seems to view Stacey as his “second-chance” or “redemption”. As a tool to demonstrate he can do traditional monogamous relationships “right” rather than a full human being with desires and feelings in her own right.
And that gets more worrisome and red-flaggy when you think of how quick this relationship has been and how entangled he felt he was entitled to be. Like, him and Stacey have been dating for what? About a month now? So still very much in NRE and the endorphin-glow of a new sexual relationship.
And already Joe’s dad is taking about forever and how Stacey is going to make him a new man and most worryingly of all… Joe’s dad is feeling fully entitled to make unilateral decisions about how to engage with Amber/AG, inserting himself as a traditional patriarch chiding the daughter for “upsetting the fragile mother”*.
*And that’s always going to be something that leaves me cold given that was the preferred tactic of my dad when he was trying to bully me into reparative therapy.
Like, do I think he’s going to be a Blaine? No. But he’s showing signs of being a controlling and unhealthy romantic partner who is more obsessed about status and what Stacey does for him than her needs and wants.
Thank you.
Ever since Richard said they were monogamous there was the question of why would he not even bring the possibility of an open relationship up to Stacey first before dismissing it. It felt like he had this idea in his head that he is really in love this time so of course his love for Stacey is going to make him into a better man which of course means monogamy.
And then there is the question would Stacey even care if he gets permission first which I don’t think he’s even asking and it makes sense to bring it up now as a possible decision so she can decide if the idea of an open relationship sounds good to her, if it limits how far she would be willing to go with him and put it in his hands if keeping it open is worth the limits it puts on the relationship, or if she wants to help him figure out how to stay monogamous when he starts being tempted again.
I think this shows the biggest difference between Joe and Richard and why Joe’s progression is much more hopeful. Because Joe is actually showing a willingness to reflect on his past actions and why they were wrong. How and why his past behaviour caused more harm than he previously believed. Richard only seems to acknowledge that his past behaviour was wrong without giving any thought to what made them wrong. It’s not about what he needs to do to change, just what he has to not do. Don’t be violent, don’t be jealous, don’t cheat and don’t be controlling and the rest will fix itself. As Stacey is his way out, the rest of the responsibility on making him a better man falls on her shoulders.
Maybe it’s because he’s still an adolescent and thus less liable to be bound by habit, but Joe seems more willing to not only accept that what he has been doing was wrong, but that if he wants to change, he can’t rely on other people to change him. He needs to figure out a lot of things for himself because there’s a monumental difference between accepting what other people say and actually thinking about it and reaching a similar conclusion.
Oh wow yikes I kinda missed the connotations of that panel amidst the much more overt red flags that are the rest of everything he’s said since he appeared.
Panel 3: Again, there’s some positive here. He’s recognizing that there’s scars, that there was real harm done and so on, but it runs into the same problem we’ve talked about.
And that’s it’s still about comparing himself to the worst and making it about him and his growth. It’s about him setting himself the low bar of “I’m not a literal physical abuser” and getting lost because of it, because he’s not focusing on his real flaws and his real barriers to addressing them.
Instead he’s just sort of going “well, I won’t be that and I want to do right, and she’ll make me right, so I’ll just believe really hard and it’ll all be okay”.
And the worrisome thing is because it’s setting Stacey as the thing “making him better”, it opens the possibility of him blaming Stacey when it turns out he’s the same type of person he’s always been once the NRE fades.
Panel 4: That all said, this moment is sweet. Because love is almost always sweet in all it’s forms.
Panel 5: I talked about this a lot yesterday and I stand by it. The creepy obsession with youth and sexual utility by old guys in our society and the way we normalize it is a major problem and often papers over some nasty aspects of rape culture.
Like, there really is a pervasive, unhealthy cultural idea that older men who date younger women are “winning” some sort of manliness battle and proving their virility or masculinity and it leads to a really gross overall culture where predators preying on people who are new or young or without full defenses is normalized.
At the worst case, you get situations like Hollywood where there was a normalized constant abuse of almost every young star and starlet by old assholes exploiting their power. But it appears in many other forms as well.
It’s shown in the weird envious hagiographies given to serial abuser and rapist Hugh Hefner, in the dismissive way we treated Trump’s rapes, and in way too many communities (and especially sexual communities) where the new and the young are eaten up by predators.
It’s shown in how we have to “train” our kids to resist and dodge creepers on the street or on the trains and in how our entire manufactured porn scene makes a target out of youth and a game out of ages.
It’s a societal problem, not a sign of healthy sexuality.
Like, if he just happened to be dating someone 15 years younger, that’s suspect but only one data point. But the fact that he’s treating this the way he is, as this victory he has achieved, as something to brag about, is part and parcel of the problem.
And I’m so damn tired of it. I’m tired of my kink scenes being overrun with creepy old dom men preying on every new femme sub who walks into the scene, turning it into a creepy game.
I’m tired of my middle school students having to learn on the fly how to handle being sexually harassed in public because old predators have normalized sexualizing their puberties.
I’m tired of the whole damn youth obsessed culture and the damage it does to both sex-positive spaces and to society in general.
And so yeah, Joe is absolutely right to be fed up with it and I hope he recognizes it and connects it to the similar way he’s internalized the fetishization of youth and aided predators like his dad with his list.
^This. I’m an older cis white male. I have some faint understanding of the privileged position I occupy in our society, but I look around at the crap minorities have to put up with, and I think THIS IS NOT THE SOCIETY I WANT TO LIVE IN! I can’t change it by myself (nor would it be appropriate for me to impose my views on society, even if I could), and that Trump is president says that changing it will be an uphill battle. Battle may even be the right word, though I hate to think we have to fight the Civil War all over again. But the fact that Hollywood moguls are finally being held to account is a promising sign. It’s a small step on the long road to social justice, and those who think their self-worth is measured by looking down on others will resist it every step of the way. But it is happening. If the so-called “Deep State” can prevent Trump from starting a nuclear war, it will go on happening. I have lived long enough to see society change markedly. It’s not enough, and it’s not nearly fast enough (but impatience with history tends to lead to violence) but things ARE getting better.
I’ve been thinking recently about this anime trope. It was the zombie train anime that reminded me of it… it takes a young girl and makes her life, like, absolutely horrible. Exploited in nearly every way possible, treated like a thing and not a person… in a way that’s usually distinctly -disengaged- from her gender, though. A child soldier, a walking library, whatever.
Usually this is where the protagonist swoops in – and no matter how bad he is at relationships, as long as he clears the impossibly low bar of ‘realizes she has emotions’… or even the not-even-bar-more-like-pit of ‘patriarchal protectiveness’… well, he’s going to be better for her than her previous life. And so she imprints on him with 100% loyalty because no matter how shit he is, he’s still the best thing to have ever happened to her.
And even if there’s no protagonist to swoop in, the straight dudes in the audience still get this fantasy of ‘I would treat her better than that, and she would love me’. Where ‘better than that’ does not even touch on any actual possible relationship problems and goes from ‘notice she’s a girl’…
So, yeah. Gross tropes, low bars.
Whereas the reality of that kind of situation is that she may imprint on him, she’s going to be horribly screwed up from that treatment and need serious help to be even capable of normal human interaction.
Look at some of the work that’s been done trying to integrate former child soldiers into normal society.
Yup, that’s the point. It’s of course 100% realistic that she would imprint on him… and the trope is romanticizing that and pretending that she’s fine now and this new relationship fixes everything.
The most honest versions are like “yeah she’s fucked up and he’s fucked up and everything’s fucked up I guess u\/(-u-)\/u” but… still sexualize her the way anime does… and that is gross.
Naruto liked having the bad guys exploit that in a non gender specific non sexual way.
sounds about right for a thing -bad guys- would do yep 😐
I don’t know how we as a society could ever escape sexualizing youth, for the same reason we sanctify and fetishize everything else from our youth. Most people wish they were young, youth represents excitement because it is experienced very intensely. It’s where ‘what could have been’ happened.
It sounds like you just wish people were better and didn’t like terrible things. People like sex, and they like power, and it is ugly when they meet. Would a huge uptick in objectifying men help, ’cause that’s the best I can see happening soon.
So many comments going “Oh he was almost there!”, and yes, that’s the joke, but this is… just not that terrible. Or terrible at all. It’s TMI for Joe, but that’s still someone who Richard trusts won’t tell it just everyone, and not, well, just everyone. He seems to really like her, he wants to be there for her, and grow with her, and he really likes having sex with her, and a good, healthy sexlife is nothing bad and nothing that should be shamed, in my opinion.
That’s not the problem with it, as so many comments have said. On its own, with no context, the sex comment wouldn’t have attracted any shaming response. I don’t think anyone has actually shamed him for that by itself.
Then what’s the problem?
There’s also an implication in the last panel and the whole scene that a good part of the reason he’s not going to cheat this time is how young and hot she is and how good the sex is.
Which has the ugly implication that the reason he cheated on Joe’s mom* is that she wasn’t young or hot enough or the sex wasn’t good enough.
Which is bullshit, but he might believe it.
hey that’s actually very cool, he can have all the sexual urges calmed by a very attractive young lady that has being emotionally devastated in the past
I can almost see the macho inside Richard struggling to find a downside in his mind, he wants to protect her sure but she also gives him everything he needs, a win win on that relationship
and whoever things sex shouldn’t be important in a relationship, it is important, only emotions can’t hold love, physical love is needed too
even if I despise cheating scumbags I also understand people grow and learn from their mistakes
Again, don’t forget the Aces.
For the moment. Until she can’t calm all his sexual urges. Then he’ll emotionally devastate her again and it’ll all be her fault for not fixing him properly.
This is not how cheating objectifying creepers get over their problems. They don’t just meet the right woman and she fixes everything for them.
Actually, I know of one person who decided to become monogamous when she fell for someone who made ist clear monogamy was mandatory if they were to become a couple. This has worked for nearly 20 years now.
But I know of more people who said they would be faithful and weren’t once the honeymoon phase was done.
And, mega creepy to tell your teenage kid so much about your sex life.
Here’s an issue I haven’t seen touched on yet…
Stacy seems to be drawn with the same body type that Amber is… short, bordering on full figured, or at least not what would be considered “slender”. (And there were comments about Amber’s weight before… Ryan calling her ‘fat’, etc.) Yet in the last panel Stacy is described as “Super Hot” by Richard.
So, for all of Richard’s faults (his hitting on girls like Sarah, his cheating, etc.), I do have to give him some credit for being more accepting of certain body types than others might be.
…I know that, like, gross dudes on the internet who will never touch a woman and the fashion industry both think that having a body fat percentage high enough to support ovulation is horrifyingly fat, but I don’t think it’s that exciting to find a dude who is sexually attracted to women with dramatic hourglass curves. That’s not actually unusual or outside the realm of conventionally attractive traits. Other Rachel is drawn with a body type that it would be interesting for Richard to be into, Amber and Stacy are not.
It’s like when Dove is all “look at us, we have PLUS SIZE MODELS because we’re INCLUSIVE” and then they’re just stunningly gorgeous women with hourglass bodies and flat stomachs somehow and no fat rolls. Nope. No points.
I think we can still at least give Richard credit for not getting all “I luv my curvy wife” about it
Never said it would be “exciting” for someone like Stacy to find someone attracted to her, but as I said, she was described as “super hot”. So, its more than just “She’s willing…”.
R: Son.
J: …
R: Son!
J: …
R: SOOOONNN!!
J: WHAT.
R: She… She likes… *whispers* THE BUTT STUFF!!
J: *claps hands over ears* DAAAAADD!!!
If Richard is approx 15 years older than Stacy then hes looking damn good for his age
You can just see his eyes go from “My Dad’s become a person..???” to “Aaaand nevermind, there he really is.”
Joe’s Dad: I like her as person. Plus we have massively kinky monkey sex!
Oh, you were doing so well . . . then blow it in the last panel. Also, I am confused, what does her being younger have to do with the type of sexual activity she engages in?
I hate to break it to you, Roborat, but growing older entails decreasing levels of athleticism and . . . flexibility.
Here’s an aspect of Richard’s last comment that I haven’t seen talked about–though I’ve only skimmed, so maybe it has been. Richard isn’t talking about just what he likes/does sexually, but also what *Stacy* has done sexually. So how comfortable is Stacy with him revealing this information to his son? They don’t know each other, but Richard says here that he hopes they will get to know each other, and if the relationship ends up being long-term, they will. Stacy could be fine with Richard saying this, but she also could not be.
(Side story: It reminds me of when I was in high school and the boyfriend of a friend of mine told a group of people who knew both of them that one of his favorite things about their relationship was “doing it doggy-style.”
Anyway, I later learned that he was sexually abusive to her, so fuck that guy.)
Better still, DON’T fuck that guy.
Yeah, I couldn’t think of a word to use there that didn’t also have a sexual meaning.
“Smite,” maybe.
Smite is good – very biblical, which is appropriate for DoA. Also “damn”, though that word seems to have little power nowadays. Perhaps “to Hell with him” – deliberately including the capital ‘H’ to make the point that you mean it literally.
Umm. I guess that sounds sarcastic and patronising. Sorry, that’s not what I meant. Women have always talked to each other about their relationships, so in the age of social media it shouldn’t be hard to arrange for abusive people to be ostracised.
Some sort of anti-dating app, maybe. Or how about this: get dating apps to allow users to post reviews?
That’s not a thing already? How is that not a thing already? Get on it, world.
Actually I wasn’t serious. The potential for abuse would be off the charts. But some sort of “bad tricks” list for the general population might be possible if libel suits could be avoided. There are places in the world where truth is not allowed as a defense against an accusation of libel.
I don’t know about every where (if telling the truth is not a defense this wouldn’t work) but what if the dating app had a list of phrases you could choose from which don’t directly accuse them of anything.
I got more physical than I really wanted and regreted it.
I found myself doupting my perception of reality when I was with them.
I neglected some friends I wish I kept a better relationship with.
I was often hoping things would get more physical than they did.
They would want to not have this feature in places where I really felt that way prove otherwise is not a legal defense, not let people review strangers to avoid sock puppets, and have the reviews anonomous (there is only so well they can do that) except to let people know if only one person complained or if it was a common complaint.
That’s a good way to go about it. By having people say how they felt about the date, without making specific claims as to what did or did not happen – even, for example “I felt afraid when with (X)” the point would be made.
Almost earned some sympathy and respect but then he kept going.
I like how Joe’s Dad may actually be more mature than his son. Which is in defiance to everyone else’s views.
Well, maybe. But see Cerberus’ comments above to get a different take on Richard’s level of maturity.
Richard, PLEASE change!
Gahh I got the Antichrist!
My mind uses the same voices to read both Richard and Joe’s lines. It’s creepy.
Once a disgusting fuck up, always a disgusting fuck up. I hope Amber’s Mom gets a much use out of Richard as she can before she moves on to someone actually worth a damn.
Richard’s got a long way to go, but I like that we’re catching a glimpse of potential for him to become a better human being than the creep he currently is. At the very least, it’s evident that he genuinely likes Stacy for more than just the sex they’re having. I’m also enjoying how uncomfortable this is for Joe, because it’s great for reinforcing that it is creepy and gross to talk about women the way that Richard does.
Fifteen years younger? Did I misread before when they met up at parents’ day (or whatever it was) that they were both alumni from the same class and were rekindling an old flame?
Or did Richard finish up college after a 10+ year break, in which case, he was rekindling an old flame that had originally been just a bit over half his age the first time?
I am confuse.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/mister/
yes, you misread, that’s not what any of that dialogue means
It’s time for you to stop talking now, Joedad
“Son, we did buttstuff! Not every woman lets you do that, this is special!”