I once played the cello in a bossa-nova-style duet that a woman one year my senior wrote based on an obscure hymn during my church’s offertory. Electric guitars do not impress me.
My cousin played guitar for one of those hip young-people churches but my Nana always tried to go do a different church because she didn’t like the “jang-jang music”
Honestly that whole obsession on not having Jesus on the cross doesn’t really make sense to me. I can certainly get the idea that the resurrection should be the focus over the death, but wasn’t part of the whole idea that it was only because Jesus suffered for our sins on the cross that we got forgiven in the first place?
It really doesn’t make a difference to me since my personal theology doesn’t obsess over there only being a single rigid path to salvation as opposed to just focusing on being a good person in life, but the issue of iconography has always been so prickly for so many groups that I really try not to get involved in it.
Well, it’s a meaningless statement as it’s merely one of many small things which Protestants use to show how OBVIOUSLY Catholics are evil which aren’t. It’s because the issues of them murdering each other in the Renaissance are mostly over but the bad blood remains.
“YOU SHOULDN’T CELEBRATE HIS DEATH! ONLY THE MURDER WEAPON!
…
WAIT NO-”
Real talk though, I always thought that the argument about if he’s on the cross or not was dumb for this exact reason. If we’re supposed to use a symbol for his resurrection, it should be, like…. like a small, filled in circle that’s slightly offset from an outlined circle. To represent, like… the bolder moved out of the way of his crypt. Because that’s how you knew he was RESURRECTED? Or something? idk I was never a very good Christian but even as a kid this seemed weird to me.
hm. Maybe the Star of Bethlehem? Like, then you’ve got the symbolism of a sign of hope without it being the murder weapon or corpse, as well as representing his ascension to heaven?
“Lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he’s gonna want to see a [beep]ing cross, man?
… kinda like going up to Jackie Onassis with a rifle pendant on, you know.” – Bill Hicks
I thought the issue was that it’s a form of icon, which violates a commandment?
Then again I always wondered why that doesn’t apply to the crucifix as well so I could be totally wrong.
Some people keep trying to get rid of icons (because the Other Guys do it, and we’re Not Like Them), but it turns out that people really really like/dig/need icons, so in practice it works about as well as any other prohibition.
To celebrate how Jesus overthrew the Romans’ attempt to murder him via crucifixion, obviously the religious symbol should be an upside-down crucifix! 😛
Actually, TECHNICALLY the cross didn’t kill him. The crucifix is a torture device, not a murder weapon. Exposure and dehydration are what usually kill crucified people. The cross simply ensured they died painfully and publicly.
BUT, in Jesus’ case, none of these things actually killed him. He survived for three or four days on the cross, according to legend. He was finally killed by a Roman legionnaire, who ran a spear into him. Whole Spear of Longinus legend.
I was under the impression the typical cause of death by crucifixion was asphyxiation? As exhaustion sets in, the person is no longer able to lift their body up, and with the arms outstretched, they cannot exhale without lifting themselves.
Also, I’m pretty sure, at least as far as the bible is concerned, Jesus was dead before he was stabbed? Not sure about other lore, but the biblical description re: the spear indicates, at the very least, he likely had pleural and/or pericardial effusion, which would have made it hella difficult for him to still be alive in a physical situation that made it hard to breathe. *shrugs*
mmmm, no, that’s not right. I mean, maybe there’s some non-canonical legend you’re referring to, but I’m pretty sure that Biblically speaking Jesus died the same day He was crucified (around 3 o’clock, so maybe that’s where you’re getting the 3 from? Or the three days between death and resurrection?). The spear was just to check.
“It should be, like… a small, filled in circle that’s slightly offset from an outlined circle”. We should put something on there to symbolize Jesus’s soul, too, getting resurrected in the tomb. Like a little white star, on top of the filled-in circle. Perfect!
I thought that the issue with having Jesus on the cross was that it sort of bordered on idolatry? Like, you make an actual objective representation of Jesus Himself.
I know Catholics love us some statues, and that “veneration” thing looks an awful lot like old school paganism when you take a step back. (Ever been to a May Crowning? We did that at school when I was a kid, and even as a kid I was like, “Huh, this is kind of…pagan-y.” I dunno, maybe it was all the ~scary fantasy books~ I read or something.)
I think it kind of depends on how you were raised in general. As a kid a though the crucifix was weird and morbid and the Catholics I knew did nothing to dispel that perception (very old fashioned, preVatican II Catholics). It seemed preoccupied with the method of his death rather than the miracle of his resurrection. I have been to some churches that had only one cross on the wall or even one that only had a shadow visible because we live in the shadow of the cross because we are saved by sacrifice but should not be preoccupied by that aspect. Some churches did not like the film The Passion of the Christ for that reason. Wearing a cross was not offensive, but it was also not a THING.
I feel like as an adult it has become more of a thing and I don’t know how much of that has to do with moving back to the south versus what seems to me to be a growing trend (nationwide) towards public piety
As a Jewish kid, having any representation of the cross seemed super morbid, but seeing him suffer up there made it more visceral. My natural response was that it looked painful and upsetting. I understand the meaning to my Christian pals, but, I suspect you have to be raised Christian to have warm fuzzy feelings about Love when you look at a guy all suffering and bloody, no matter the cause he’s suffering for.
I mean… The catholic church has historically been very morbid, there’s no way around that, and Jesus is not the only one depicted in how he dies. Walk through older cathedrals in Europe and you’ll notice that it’s very common to depict the saints in the way they were martyred (Shot with arrows, crucified in creative ways, hung, decapitaded or in the case of Saint Bartholomew: Skinned). Skulls, bones and other symbols of death and dismemberment are not uncommon decor. One castle I’ve been to had the chapel only accessible by going through a torture chamber. During the times death was everywhere and the church wasn’t shy about reminding you and by the way have you heard of our life-after-death package?
I guess my point is I wouldn’t be surprised if Jesus’ presence on the crucifix is more of a case of “It was just how it was done” and that any theological reason was tacked on afterwards.
Admitted Atheist slash agnostic person chiming in here, but isn’t his death theoretically more important than his resurrection? I thought the whole point was that he died for “our” sins. The resurrection is cool, but shouldn’t it be the sacrifice that gets commemorated?
Yes a big point is that he died for our sins (speaking as a Baptist here), but the way I was taught is that that would be meaningless without him rising afterwards and thus conquering death.
That’s really the crux of the difference between Catholics and thier like versus the others. Catholics are all about penance. Christ’s death for ‘our’ sins was the ultimate penance that they seek. Neeling before god they ask for forgiveness. Protestants are about the resurrection, or re-birth. Christ was risen and then ascended into heaven. Standing before god arms raised they ask to be saved.
The death is the sacrifice and it’s meant as Christ taking all of our sins upon Himself, so yes, it’s important like that.
The resurrection, as I understand my catechism (and it’s been a while) is what “conquered death.” As my mom’s pentacostal folks call it, it’s “The Vict’ry.” I swear, you can HEAR the capital letters when they say it. But no, seriously, that’s kind of the big thing. The death is the sacrifice, but without the victory of the resurrection, all it would have been would be a sacrifice with nothing truly won at the end, theologically speaking.
Chalk me up into the “IDGI” column, too. It’s been… decades, but humanity’s salvation lie in Jesus’ death. “Hey, thanks for dying horrifically for our sins. We’re gonna accept you as our personal lord and savior in thanks. Kthxbye.”
Cool? I don’t know, Jesus’ death just seems… unnecessary.
I mean, why would an omnipotent deity need to create a loophole for His own rules, by being born of a virgin so He could commit “suicide by cop” in order to forgive us for things we things we haven’t done yet, all so that we can avoid a punishment that He created?
I think it has to do with the presence of blood atonement (i.e., the need to produce a sacrifice to seek God’s forgiveness) in the Old Testament. Jesus, by being the ultimate blood sacrifice, made possible a direct path between humanity and God. Or something.
ywell yeah, how else are you gonna play the hip contemporary christian music for everyone to sing along with and get an emotional high off of, reinforcing the association between asserting christian beliefs and feeling all righteous and loved and stuff
i mean, OBviously you gotta have all that or else what even is the POINT of going to church
While electric guitars are cool and all, I posit that they alone do not make much difference in whether or not people stick with a particular religion/denomination/theistic belief, and that in fact by focusing on materialist trappings like guitars, “youth leaders” and the like have actually ended up neglecting the real fundamentals.
They should dab. Not just now, when it’s a few months stale, but forever. Dabbing should become an intrinsic part of church services. That’ll keep the kids keen.
Why not? Unless your church excludes instruments from church music, of course.
The organ, the harp, the psaltery — they weren’t always ancient instruments. At some point, some medieval music director brought a harpist in, and a whole bunch of the congregation were all, “a HARPIST? in CHURCH?”
I try not to be judgey about worship styles, ranging from hours-long whole group singing and dancing to literal silence. Worship is about the heart. It’s an act of love, and love can be quiet at tender or it can be frightened or it can be excited; as long as it’s honest love of God and your siblings under Him, it’s worship. Centuries old music can make one feel connected to the brothers and sisters that came before you; dancing can remind one that your body is good and of God; it’s a temple of the Holy Spirit, fearfully and wonderfully made.
And silence is a friggin’ relief. Oh man. I did not stick with the Quakers for long, but maybe a 20-minute quiet time is a solid plan for most church services and could be adopted more widely.
So I guess what throws me off with the worship style of Joyce’s home church (which clearly isn’t pentacostal / gospel / ame style, but neither is it ancient high-church music that’s been practiced and treasured for centuries) is that it feels insincere, I guess. With other styles, I get the holy purpose that belies the style. But with the pop / soft-rock Switchfoot-style worship music, I don’t really understand how that is supposed to bring one closer to God or spirituality? What are people going for?
What a thoughtful comment. And I agree. Music is one of the best things about Christianity, whether it’s High Church hymns or modern gospel (or a mixture – I loved Sister Act). The evangelical pop I’ve heard bits of (thanks to Willis and my own morbid curiosity) just sounds like baloney insofar as the point is a religious experience through music. I mean it’s just bad music and that is bound to have an effect on how you spiritually relate to your god.
The church I was raised in did both, and did it differently for different demographics. There were distinct periods reserved for being quiet, and sometimes that would end when the worship leader kicked off with something sedate, to give people time to shift out of the reflection into something more exuberant.
Choosing the actual music is pretty important: a lot of CCM is terrible for worship purposes, and a good group will recognize that. But some of it is actually really good. My favorite is probably “Overflow,” by Geoff Moore.
Having participated in these services with these types of music, I can assure you that it can absolutely work for what you describe it to be. I also knew the people who led the worship well (I often stayed after to help clean up, just to hang out), and they were some of the most down-to-earth, soft-spoken, polite, and kindest people I’ve ever known. The lead musician could sometimes guitar solo, and sometimes the drums really cut loose, but, partly because I KNOW them, it always, always remained about directing attention to God through the medium of a music style that resonated with, well, us high school/college kids.
That’s really cool. I appreciate having different styles as part of a single group in order to meet different kinds of people where they’re at.
I’m glad that the people who led the worship at those services had genuine spiritual intent. Honestly, I’m probably more willing to give half-hearted liturgical worship services more benefit of the doubt than awkward contemporary-style services, just because I’ve been to more of them and I’m more familiar with them.
But, that’s not really fair. Something to think on, I guess.
That was my thought.. We have had drums organ acoustic guitars with amplification, but I
grew up Catholic Episcoplalian and don’t know much about capital “C” protestant brand christianity.
If you want musicians, finding someone who plays electric guitar is easy. Cello is hard. And electric guitars can sound like nearly anything because their electric.
BTW, Silent Night was written for solo guitar.
Well, as the counter-protestors at Planned Parenthood danced to Karma Chameleon to drown out the Pro-Lifers, one of the abolitionists came up to me and calmly informed me that there would be, “No slick ’80s jams in Hell.”, so I guess all the guitarists go to Heaven by default.
No, Joyce! Don’t do it! They draw you in with papal succession and a thoroughly-constructed ecclesiology, but before you know it you’re doing ten Hail Marys and arguing vehemently in the literalness of the transubstantiation of the eucharist!
You know how it is, you flirt with Episcopalism and before you know it, you find yourself on your knees before a crucifix, wearing a rosary and doing Hail Mary’s.
I kind of got over that when I got to be over thirty, and got to know some kids. If I can accept that they are really dumb and/or really obnoxious at time and still love them, than I can extend the same courtesy to my younger self.
She’s kinda already the Whiteboard Ding-Dong Bandit. I doubt anything else she does for the rest of the comic will be able to survive being drowned out by that.
As a lapsed Catholic, the reason why Catholic churches ‘celebrate’ Jesus’ crucifixion is to honour the fact that he sacrificed himself to free us from the original sin. To Catholics, this is the greater act than the resurrection.
Seriously I’m a protestant (sort of, it’s complicated) but I’d always understood that the whole suffering for our sins thing to be the crux of the whole religion. Sure it’s not exactly good to celebrate someone’s death, but it seems like there’s no harm in acknowledging that he really took one for the team by doing that.
Yeah, Catholics just kinda ignored that whole no-graven-images thing – that’s Old Testament, and OBVIOUSLY meant graven images of PAGAN gods, not of the REAL God.
I’m kind of with Joyce on the whole Jesus-on-the-crucifix thing. I mean, I’m really not feeling the cross either way, but having the dying man on it always makes me additionally uncomfortable.
They mean different things. Jesus on the cross symbolizes Christ’s suffering for our sins. The empty cross symbolizes Jesus’ resurrection, of his transcendence of his physical suffering.
I’m no theologian, but I believe it’s meant to celebrate Jesus’s martyrdom, by emphasizing how he suffered and died for the sins of humankind. It’s morbid, I’ll grant you that, especially to modern Christians, who are no longer the martyrdom culture they used to be. (Not that it’s a bad thing. Martyrdom cultures are toxic.)
There are actually some interesting eschatological ramifications to which symbol is exhulted because it fundamentally changes what is viewed as the most important part of the Gospel narrative.
Of course this is all semantics but don’t tell the theologians that they look so happy
Heathens and Pagans will sometimes refer to all Abrahamic religions as “People of the Book”. Because it’s all basically the same pantheon, right? Plus that whole thing with the infallible holy text.
Some will group Satanists (not the modern, atheistic nihilist ones, but the ones Joyce is scared of) in with the rest as well, because, again, same pantheon. They may be following different figures in the same group, or have differing interpretations of the various characters; but from a Wiccan or Asatru perspective, it’s still all followers of the same pantheon, and not much different from going, “Hey, you follow Odin? Cool! I’m a Thorsman myself! We’re practically kindred! Let’s go get a beer!”
–Except for some reason the followers of the various flavours of Abrahamic religion seem hate each other instead. :/
Islam long officially treated Christians and Jews as “People of the Book” and treated them better than pagans. Subordinate within Islamic countries, but allowed to practice their faiths, etc.
That’s changed somewhat in practice, but that’s more current political tension than doctrine.
Except that the two main branches of Islam are only few steps away from killing each while with Christianity interdenominational fighting has largely disappeared.
The conflict between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland wasn’t that long ago.
Honestly, I’d say the change is more that the West is much more secular then most Islamic countries and than it used to be. Islam tends to have much more control over the countries it’s dominant in.
Christian sects may well revert to warring among themselves, if they weren’t largely kept down by secular power structures in the main Christian states.
Or they might just start by fighting other religions first. It’s not like some Christians haven’t tried to push the idea of the fight against terrorism as a Holy War.
The conflict in NI is more political and only becomes sectarian during the marching season. At least since around 2000.
Some Christian sects think other Christian sects are different religions.
But seriously, the only Muslims trying to kill other Muslims are terrorists about as closely associated with actual Islam as that asshole who shot up that black church was with actual Christianity.
Of course, some people believe it makes a great deal of difference. But the real reason, historically, was because Protestants didn’t want the finery and ornamentation of the Catholic Church, because they viewed it as corrupt. So they went with just a plain cross as opposed to the often highly decorated Catholic crucifixes of the time. The theological justification was invented later.
I mean I love the philosophical implications of inequal cardinalities of entity and person as much as the next demiguy but the trinity was created to justify Santa Clause punching a dude in the face for badmouthing Mary
I may be slightly exaggerating but you won’t look it up because you don’t want to be disappointed
Well, clearly it does to some people because of their beliefs. For me it’s more like the difference of a knife vs someone being stabbed with a knife, so it’s still a difference.
A knife is used for a lot of things, not just stabbing people. The Christian cross has its meaning exclusively because of crucifixion. I get what you mean though.
Without Jesus there, how can you know which crucifixion it was? For all you know, you could be accidentally celebrating some random criminal who totally deserved being crucified.
While it seemed like a cheap joke, Kevin Smith has gone on record as saying the “Buddy Christ” in Dogma actually is a serious thing he was annoyed at with religion. While he’s all about serious reform, he thinks the whole point of the crucifix is it’s a serious subject. This coming from a pro-choice, pro-euthanasia (under certain circumstances), pro-sex very devout Catholic.
It’s not supposed to make you feel comfortable. It’s supposed to make you feel guilty for the terrible sinner that you are. “Look at how much this sucked. And he did it FOR YOU.”
There’s a reason there’s a whole thing called “Catholic guilt”. Focusing on the resurrection means you get to celebrate. Focusing on the death means you ought to be depressed.
Thing is, I never really understood the whole “Catholic guilt” thing, as someone who grew up Catholic. We have confession, why should we be constantly obsessed with guilt? We can just go in and get our sins forgiven at any moment. If anything, it felt like the opposite stereotype should be given too us.
You don’t even have to ‘go in’. You can Confess to a friend. You could even Confess in private to God directly, acknowledging that you have sinned out loud. I forget how penance is supposed to work in those cases, but I do remember the lead priest at my church stressing that if you weren’t comfortable confessing to him or his, to at least confess in private occasionally after your First Confession.
Er… I’ve been Catholic almost my entire life and I’ve never heard of that. Priests are the only ones allowed to forgive sins. If you’re not comfortable with the priest at your own parish, there’s nothing wrong with going to a different parish where the priest doesn’t know you, but you can’t confess to anyone who isn’t a priest and you certainly can’t confess in private (except maybe in extreme circumstances, e.g. if you’re in danger of death).
I think we can chalk that up to differences in individual churches? I only have the two Home churches I’ve had to base this on, but both were very firmly on the side of “God’s forgiveness is infinite, but you must seek it, even if it’s in a small way.”
I really don’t know, but maybe it has something to do with needing to confess those sins in some way? And penance. Whereas some Christians I know seem to pretty much view their sins–at least minor sins, though I guess for some it’s “a sin is a sin”–as instantly forgiven through their faith in Christ.
And the whole “works vs faith” thing probably plays in as well.
See, without Jesus, all I see is the object used to publicly execute hundreds of thousands if not millions over a 300 odd year period, including rebel slaves. Maybe that’s just the history major in me talking, but without Jesus the cross is cruel. But, at the same time I do see where the other view is coming from and understands it as a valid point.
That’s fair. It’s really more of a visceral reaction. Basically, if I see a depiction of a weapon/thing used for killing, my reaction to it is more likely to range from averting my eyes to mild excitement (If the thing being depicted is like a sweet ass sword). Meanwhile, if I saw an image of a weapon/thing used for killing in use, my reaction is more likely to range from averting my eyes to “ohgodohgod, no, stop it, ohgod.”
Oh yeah the cross/crucifix debate is a thing. While neither my notably-liberal Presbyterian church nor my ambiguously-moderate Catholic high school ever got into the church wars except in jest, there were quite a few arguments in theology about the implication of celebrating the death (which puts the emphasis on Jesus’ atonement for our sins and on the wage of sin) vs the resurrection (which puts the emphasis on Jesus’ conquest of death and on the life everlasting) and how that ties into one’s moral incentives. In practice, most people just pretended they had an opinion one way or another so they could get the participation grade.
Did you guys hear about the paper written and signed by a bunch of religious officials accusing the Pope of perpetrating heresy? Of course, because the Pope is God’s representative on earth, anyone accusing him of heresy is by definition themselves a heretic lol
Unlike Most Holy, he’s only sometimes infallible. Sometimes he speaks with the authority of God. Sometimes, he’s just some pope dude running his mouth. I believe they’re criticizing non-ex cathedra positions of Pope Francis.
For reference, among other things, Vatican II said that other sects of Christianity were still Christians and that the doctrine of Jewish Deicide was not grounds to murderize Jews.
That’s…. actually pretty typical throughout Christianity.
“Uh…. guys? I know we’re hardcore Evangelicals and all, but I was reading the Bible, and Christ was pretty up-front about the not-judging part and the do-unto-others part and the anti-gay passages are kinda on the sidelines and open to interpretation, so-”
“HERESY! CAST HIM OUT! GET BEHIND US, SATAN!”
….
“Okay, so we ELCA Lutherans are considering ordaining priests who are in same-sex marriages.”
“HERESY! SCHISM! WE’LL LEAVE AND FORM OUR OWN DENOMINATION!”
…
Not an every-Christian thing, but maybe an every-denomination thing?
He’s too liberal, what with non-church enulled divorcees being ‘forgiven’ and atheists acknowledged as potentially good people. He was bound to get pushback.
I’m sorry, but this is still a low bar. We have yet to have a Pope who properly addressed and acknowledged the problems with the Church:
1: Obviously, the child molestation scandal. Cardinal Law continues to not be ordered to return to Boston to answer questions. There is still no broad instruction from the Vatican to turn over ALL accusations of child molestation to proper, secular authorities. The Church still has to be dragged, kicking and screaming, every time a new scandal pops up.
2: The Church still operates under the assumption that an abortion is something which must be ‘forgiven’, and that a woman who does not repent (and thus regret) her decision to have one is automatically excommunicated. The Pope’s sole concession on this point was to allow priests to perform absolution for abortion (previously, this was reserved to bishops, some of whom would then pass on the authority to the priests).
3: He continues to support laws that would exclude gays from any benefits offered to heterosexual couples, and opposes efforts to change those laws. This and abortion are two huge areas where the Church continues to attempt to intervene in secular law.
Yes, he’s said some kind things about the poor and the need to shield the environment. That puts him in ‘passable human being’ and ‘not willfully stupid’ categories. He’s not done anything revolutionary to address the core issues that those of us not of the faith object to, so I see no reason to cut him any slack.
And John Paul II was himself a pretty conservative fellow as a result of being a native of Poland after WW2 and on the Soviet side of the iron curtain.
There are actually some very conservative Catholics who think the current Pope is not legitimate. They believe that Pius XII was the last legitimate Pope. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sedevacantism
When I was a kid (raised in a liberal Lutheran church, almost literally), the whole notion of excommunication confused me. It sure didn’t sound like any kind of punishment to me.
“What, you’re kicking me out of your church? Cool, I’ll just go across the street and join a better one.”
It was different when the Catholic Church was essentially the only Church* and being excommunicated meant being denied the sacraments and thus Salvation.
*(there were always others, but they tended to be geographically separate, so you wouldn’t know about them.)
There are SO MANY subsects of Catholicism, you would not believe. You think Protestant fundamentalists are bad, Catholics have been doing it for centuries longer. RCC had to create an Inquisition for a reason, you know.
Popes have been declared heretical by their successors before now. One had the previous one dug uo to try him for heresy. If your institution is 2000 years old, you’ve done a lot of weird shit.
Fuck, fundie churches have electric guitars?? That must be how they getcha.
Also I didn’t realize how deep this conditioning ran, I have this compulsion to tell Joyce of course we celebrate his death, that’s the bit that gives us eternal life in heaven, I don’t even know anymore if that’s right but it’s what Little Sunday School Shiro wants to retort.
That was definitely one of the main camps, while an alternative view (popular in many Protestant circles) states that the salient point is Jesus’ resurrection, which represents a conquest over sin and death.
Or you could place the emphasis on, you know, his sermons
Well yeah but then we might have to apply his teachings like feeding the poor and welcoming refugees and that’s just Unthinkable, just go stand over there and be holy in a way that’s acceptable to the religious right, Jesus.
Oh, the omniscience thing covers it but wouldn’t to understand what being human require you NOT to be omniscient? It’s an interesting question of the kind Jesuits love.
If you want some fun, ask for a list of Bible verses that support omniscience. They’re a set of very weirdly specific examples. Omniscience (and omnipotence… and omnipresence…) are all over-simplified summaries by theologians.
It’s basically the theological equivalent of One Punch Man fans insisting that Saitama has the ability to kill any character from any show in one punch even though it’s explicitly shown that he’s not all-powerful because they can’t imagine worshipping someone who isn’t totally invincible and awesome in every way.
Of course there’s nothing in actual Scriptural canon to substantiate the idea of a trinity or of Jesus being any closer to God than being his literal son BUT STILL
But we can’t actually do what Jesus said, that’d get in the way of teaching what Jesus said!
(No joke, that was pretty close to verbatim what someone said at a strategy meeting I recently went to for the church I attended in my hometown. I am so glad that old white man was in the minority.)
Catholics are required to show up on Easter not Good Friday. Wait that could be just because its a Sunday. Never mind Church is on Sunday because Easter is on Sunday. I mean yea Good Friday is the day that allows us to go to Heaven but most people would feel and the good guy suffers for eternity because everyone else is bad to be a horrible ending.
My god having a sympathetic character react this way to the religion I grew up in is uncomfortable. I’m not saying it’s bad storytelling or oppressive or anything. It’s just really uncomfortable.
Joyce comes from an American subculture that has a very strong sense of “us versus them,” strong enough that you could almost call it a core value. And before going to college she hasn’t had much practice dealing with people that her subculture considers “them.” So she’s going to have problems with situations like this.
I’m so uncomfortable for Jacob. How… how do you even handle this? You invite a girl to church, you are a generally nice dude who likes her and has always been aware of her strict religious views, so you, like, don’t WANT her to be uncomfortable, but she’s freaking out and in the process shitting on your church, which is apparently fairly important to you.
…
I… legit have no social script for this one. Becky, please do something, don’t make Jakes figure this one out on his own.
So awhile back I posted some ideas as to why Jacob and Joyce was a bad idea and while I’d like to claim this as proof that Joyces immaturity would be an impediment I can’t really as its it religious intolerance and I didn’t see it coming
I’ll claim a sort of, maybe, kinda, half called it
It’s religious intolerance born of ignorance. She’s proven she’s capable of moving past that on way bigger sticking points than this before. I’m not saying that to clear the way for Joyce/Jacob, but don’t give up on her yet.
I haven’t given up on her, I just think that at the moment Joyce and Jacob would be a really bad idea for Jacob, couple of years time might be a different story
Nope. Didn’t you see that one Doctor Who episode with the angels and River Song? “The image of a Jesus becomes itself a Jesus.” The patriarch of Constantinople was right all along!
Once I accidentally visited a modern art show (Robert Ryman, the “White on White” artist). I spent an hour wandering around going “This is stupid.” Then I got the point and spent two hours going “This is genius.”
…And you, dear reader, get to decide whether that’s on topic or not.
On topic: For even if you end up in a place you disagree with, you can still learn something. You can learn about what the place/experience means to the people involved.
I learned how to celebrate Ramadan in Norway without starving when it happens to fall during one of those months with hardly any night, (you can just break your fast according to nightfall in Mecca,) which was almost as good as the history lecture I was looking for, anyway.
I think there’s a difference between visiting to learn about history or different cultures and going in to participate in what suddenly isn’t what you thought it was.
According to everything Joyce has been taught her whole life she’s now viscerally realizing she’s in the midst of a Satanic cult and her very soul is in danger.
She’s shocked and freaking out. OTOH, she’s Joyce and I have faith in her. She’ll get over it.
The patient, Joyce B—-, presented with an acute episode of DSM-V 521.2: High Church Panic Disorder. Upon finding herself within an unfamiliar worship environment, including Christ iconography, robed and collared clergy, and a lack of electric guitars, she exhibited raised voice behaviour, which quickly escalated to sustained screeching behaviour. Responding EMTs gently but firmly ushered her out of the building into a neutral location, dressed her in a casual sweater and jeans, and played early Amy Grant recordings until her panic subsided and her vital signs returned to normal. Medication regimen: not indicated.
Which requires him dying on the cross. Mind you, a lot of this anti-Catholicism is notable for the fact the Catholic Church has seriously changed since the 14th century but they don’t want to acknowledge it–corruption accusations still valid, sadly in the most heinous way.
Requires yes, but that’s incidental – only important because it was necessary for the resurrection.
As opposed to the death being the redeeming part and resurrection being a weird afterthought.
Both traditions acknowledge both, but emphasize different aspects.
I haven’t met any theologians who take this view. If sin can only be redeemed by a death that isn’t followed by life, that’s more like spiritual nihilism. The essentially Christian element is that what follows atonement is eternal life with God, not death.
As for the comic and Joyce’s stance on crucifixes with Jesus on them, her mistake is that the image of Christ crucified is meant to be a celebration. It is instead a sobering reminder of what it cost to redeem humanity.
I never understood what the big deal about the ressurrection was when I was little. I always figured, “He’s the son of God. What did you expect was going to happen?”
Reminds me that bit from Saint Young Men when Jesus met some Yakuza guy in Public baths and from one misunderstanding to another the Yakuza started to think that Jesus was a fellow Yakuza. Then Jesus said that he went away but got out after three days which impressed the Yakuza who asked how did Jesus achieve that. Jesus just smiled and said that it was not his doing but the Will of his Father… and Yakuza suddenly got all super respectful and a bit hurt because Jesus was apparently Oyabun’s son and he didn’t tell him that.
If you’re trying to say that it should be “could hear,” Cephalo, I’d say there’s really no reason to be pedantic about a joke like that. Rich Mullins can’t hear a specific pitch that no-one else can… and he NEVER COULD. Changing the tense doesn’t change the wrongness of the statement.
I was half expecting a female priest, but that would have overshadowed Joyce’s complete freak out about the normal accoutrements of high church Episcopalianism.
It’s bringing back memories of early visits to Reform synagogues for me: “Why do you have guitars? Why is there a choir? Why are we singing in English? Did I wander into a church by accident?”
As someone who went to Catholic Church as a child, later became an atheist, and after that visited my friends Assembly of God church for whatever reason, I was very culture shocked by the amount of electric guitars, casualness, and people speaking in tongues and shaking
Haha, I was raised Greek Orthodox. Y’all’s churches are crazy. The insides are all painted solid colors and the services are in English and spoken. Everyone knows you have to paint like, every single saint on the walls and the service has to be the priest and three other guys singing in Greek: the language Jesus spoke.
So that’s the big deal? (Was raised protestant christian, and I know catholic christian is different but never really the difference. All I know is catholics be fancy, reform in england, king wants to bang whoever he pleases, blah blah blah bit.)
Nah, the main difference between Catholic and Protestant? Unlike Catholics, Protestants tend to accept things like the Trinity and Communion as holy mysteries without really thinking about them or trying to understand them. Protestants tend to focus on more concrete things like what color cloth should be on the alter, or whether or not the pews should be padded, or, yes, whether or not Jesus should be represented on the cross. (Oh, and while Evangelicals are Protestants, not all Protestants are Evangelical.)
Hm. in my experience, German Lutheran Protestants focus on a very cerebral approach to faith. And the ones I experienced (in the country, not a big city) where focused on living right and not on everlasting life (or even seemed to think much about sin). I always had the impression catholicisms and fundamentalism both are mainly occupied with “how to get to heaven” though their actually answers to this question might differ.
Actually, this comic gave me the first inclination ever that some people actually believe in hell and being cast down by god for their sins ever. I always read the Bible (and I did read it) as a mixture of history and allegorie and the mere thought that anyone takes anything in it as actual unerring truth is totally mind-boggling to me.
Welcome to the world of American Evangelicalism. It exists almost purely to boggle the minds of those who look at it from the outside, and indoctrinate those born inside.
welp, I am still totally thrown off my loop with this storyline. I grew up Catholic and all crucifixes HAD to have a bloody Jesus on them because he died for our sins and you have to see how much he suffered for you. The more blood and the more agonized his expression the better you will understand that he suffered for YOU specifically
(I am not presently religious, just sharing how I understand it)
Some of the Catholic iconography gets pretty creepy. There was this church I used to live near that had this ~10′ tall sculpture of a hand with a nail through it out front. Gross and creepy as hell.
I mean, I know what they’re going for, but from outside, what the hell people?
Anyone want to place bets that Joyce’s other brother is here? Because it’d be interesting if Joyce’s family kicked him out in the same way Becky always feared for Catholicism.
I do remember how my parents were SCANDALIZED when my brother converted to get married.
I think it’s 50/50 whether Jordan joined a denomination too liberal for his parents, or another religion entirely, or joined a denomination that sees the one his parents attend as too liberal.
American fundamentalism produced the Prosperity Gospel which is as close to a genuine inversion of Christianity as you can get. Logic doesn’t have to enter the equation.
A bit more about the Anglican/Epsicop Church. While HENRY was a devout Catholic (and genuinely an awful person prone to Saddam Hussein levels of frequent homicidal murder–sigh), his ADVISORS were often not. Henry allowed a large number of reforms to happen but drew the line at the Protestant ideal which was, honestly, genuinely crazy. These small reforms and the independence of the Church of England would get a lot of people horribly murdered over the years under both his daughters as well as Parliament.
The short version if I recall my history is, “The English weren’t fond of the Irish before but their support of their Catholic sovereign caused them to inflict the worst punishment they could think of–importing large numbers of Scots. The rest was inevitable.”
Well, they were Scots who supported Cromwell. If it had been highlanders the outcome would essentially been two cousins getting shoved in a room and agreeing to try beating up the guy who put them in the room in the first place.
Henry VIII and his first wife also did have a son early on in their marriage, but he died as an infant. If said son had survived, well, England and the rest of the British Isles would be a much different place.
Hell, if Henry’s older brother Arthur had survived, England would have been a very different place, if only because there would then have actually been a historical King Arthur.
–Dang, now I want Kate and William’s next boy to be named Arthur. Or, like, George to have been named Arthur instead. Okay, he was probably named for his great-grandfather; but “King Arthur” is more auspicious these days than “King George”…
Arthur and (until Prince Charles) Charles are actually the two names which monarchs aren’t supposed to choose for their sons due to the historical problems with them.
Edward I named his first son John, but he didn’t make it.
I don’t know if it’s still the case, but for a while at least every male in the royal family had to have ‘Albert’ as one of their names (to honour Victoria’s husband), but none of them were allowed to choose it as their regnal named (Victoria wouldn’t have liked it, because none of them could possibly be worthy of the original).
Interestingly enough, when I was still attending mass in the late 90s/very early 00s there was a shift in several churches I attended mass at where the bloody anguished jesus-on-a-crucifix was either replaced by jesus triumphantly conquering death, often walking on clouds, or else had resurrected jesus opposite the crucifix (so you could see anguished jesus guilting you when looking at the altar, and post-death jesus as you left).
Religion is so frickin’ weird. Joyce’s church is one of the few I’ve seen that’s more regressive than the one I grew up in… except that at my church, we were taught that musical instruments weren’t allowed to be played during worship. Like, it was almost up there with dancing in terms of shit God said not to do (dancing, it turns out, was invented in the brothels of medieval Europe to entice men to sex, bet you didn’t know that).
Given David danced in the Bible before the Ark of the Covenant naked, I’m continually astounded by the fact very few people seem to actually READ the Bible–and it’s not like the book isn’t a bloody, Game of Thrones-esque mess. It’s just you’d think that’d be on the list!
Some translations have him wearing a leather apron or loincloth which…honestly is kinda creepier than the nude version because then it starts evoking crazy butcher imagery.
Mind you, Saul killed everyone but the people he was lining his pockets from. It doesn’t change the awfulness but it doesn’t give Saul the moral high ground either.
Then again, context matters as people think Abraham and Isaac was about Abraham having faith in God–not that human sacrifice of your first born child is something God DISAPPROVES OF. It was actually common in the time period.
Uh… Are you being sarcastic there at the end? Or what? Because I’m pretty sure people have been dancing since the first guy that hit a hollow log with a stick rhythmically.
I once had a friend tell me that Baptists were never an offshoot of Catholicism but actually pre dated Catholics because the first Baptist was John the Baptist. Apparently Baptists also predate Christianity.
There’s a genuine argument that while the Catholic Churches were founded by Paul and Peter (Eastern and Roman), the African Churches include some which may have been founded by the other Apostles (or at least members of the original Jewish Christian sect in Judah) which went downward from Egypt and present-day Libya. Which means they have every right to be the “original” church.
I dunno, as things the Gospels say which might or might not be true, Jesus having a close relative who was a evangelical back to nature preacher who recognized his divinity is one of the least difficult things to believe.
Willis did a thread on his twitter not too long ago explaining how church was for him (and the church Joyce attended with her family is the same church he attended, street adress, interiors, and all).
basically think of it like those political spectrum charts: one axis is “regressive/progressive beliefs,” and the other is traditional/modern trappings.
Churches often use more “hip” “modern” aesthetics to tell themselves they’re cool and relevant and compassionate, masking their actual beliefs which can still be really heinous and bigoted.
I want to call everyone’s attention to Panel 5. Willis must have put a lot of work into, even though the comic payoff is not in the visual part of it.
Looking at Google Street View, it’s pretty clear that the church in the comic is, within the style of the comic, a very accurate representation of the actual Trinity Episcopal Church in Bloomington. But — there’s no Google Satellite view of it from this perspective. There’s no office building kitty-corner from the church that you could get a reference photo from.
This is an artist with a well-developed awareness of his craft looking at ground-level pictures, and using his knowledge of perspective and his artistic intuition to figure out what the church must look like from a viewpoint that no one has ever actually seen it from.
I’m sure we all agree that Willis has become a master of facial expressions and character exposition. But once in a while we should take a moment to appreciate marvelous use of backgrounds.
I’m sorry, but the idea that the cross not having Jesus on it means you’re celebrating his resurrection and not his death makes no real sense. The cross is still where he died, taking him off the thing isn’t going to change that.
Yeah, I get the idea of traditional, but it can honestly get boring going to a traditional service, especially having done so for my Grandma’s sake for a decade or so.
Contemporary, high school ministry led, or bust yo.
Yeah, I have weird feelings about this, and I think drs has their finger on it.
Joyce is an incredibly sympathetic character, because her ignorance is her biggest flaw and it truly isn’t her own fault. She was incredibly sheltered / indoctrinated, and she’s already taken great steps towards thinking for herself and standing up for her own newfound beliefs.
— Despite her initial shock at Dorothy’s atheism, she stood up to her parents and defended her friendship with her early on.
— Despite her initial homophobic indoctrination, she looked for more information and found Christians who validated same-sex love, then went into (perhaps over-zealous) support of all LGBT relationships in her dorm
–Despite her shock at polyamorous dorm-mates, she seems to be okay with them now
–Despite her initial fearful reaction towards secular television (iirc?) she quickly befriends Walky and enjoys his cartoon
So it’s like, in how many variations is she going to have to learn this lesson? The lesson where something she was taught was evil and ought to be avoided at all costs is, in fact, good, or at least good for some people.
I suspect that, in real life, this actually is a lesson that has to be repeated in wide variance when someone is so sheltered, which actually makes this comic pretty realistic. But, the more realistic it is, the less funny it is. Instead it gets more sad. More awkward. And, in some cases, more offensive, because there is a greater sense that she ought to know better.
So, I think that’s why this strip feels so odd to me.
I think her reaction is possibly being amplified by the fact she thought she could handle this – “I’m going to a different church! With my gay BFF! In something more form-fitting than a sweater vest!” – and the stuff she’s freaking out about is stuff she would never have dreamed she needed to prepare for, or was this deeply ingrained as “wrong” for her.
the thing I’ve noticed through all these storylines is that she’s adjusting her moral compass on specific issues, but still trying to keep it reconciled with her faith. When she tells off her parents, it’s not “screw the Bible, I know this is wrong,” it’s “Jesus is my ethical guide, not YOU.” And she’s still sticking to her guns regarding a lot of bits and pieces that don’t seem (to her) connected to the issues she’s had a radical change on. Like evolution and the age of the earth, for example.
I find this incredibly relatable. I grew up with Joyce’s nearly exact background. I also experienced this slow slide into compassionate heresy when I got to College. The house of cards doesn’t fall down all at once. It happens in fits and spurts, with the parts that seem more salvageable possibly hanging on for a loooong time. If anything, Joyce is progressing much more quickly than I did. It’s still Fall term of her first year.
While I can empathize with her culture shock because I became Catholic a few years ago and then visited a protestant church and was SO confused… I’m also really uncomfortable with how she’s acting.
Great writing and expressions as always.
For me, it was the lack of anti-intellectualism and the lack of focus on salvation by faith alone. The fact it had focus on investigating miracles and such a broad history of studying ideas of faith as well as updating it made it seem like the way a church should be run. I was very naive about other parts.
Well, I will give a bit of quick background:
I grew up Wiccan, at first to get back at my father and then because I loved taking care of the environment and it seemed to be the right path, but I felt very disconnected from other people (now had I branched out, I may have found a great group, but that’s not what happened) and started searching through the different religions for something that would connect me to other people.
I had absolutely no idea who Jesus was, no idea about the Bible, the only story I knew was Noah’s ark, etc.
I had a conversion dream one day where God came and told me to come home and so I started looking into what that could mean.
I started working at a Catholic school and found an immediate sense of love and belonging, and so I reached out to a church next to my house which thankfully is an Oblate Catholic Parish (Oblate being the order and the order is very pro-women, pro-helping the poor, very accepting and loving, and not about spending all the money on ridiculous things, but putting it to where it’s needed).
So I took the journey and really loved it, and now I work at that church and I work with Youth and Young adults.
I’m actually working with someone at another church right now to bring about an LGBTQ2+ group in our city which is so far being met with open arms.
So my experience is much different than the gross and shameful experiences some people have to put up with. It breaks my heart that some Catholics don’t act as Jesus showed them how to.
Sorry, that was really long lol. Thanks for asking, though!
I guess I answered more how I became Catholic than what interested/appealed to me…
I’d say now the things that appeal to me are:
-I can go to any Catholic church in any country and know what readings they’ll be saying, the order of the mass, and basically what’s going on (with some exceptions). I went to Notre Dame when I was in France and several masses in Poland, and felt very comfortable because I knew what was going on.
I also feel drawn to the traditional vestments (clothes), the crucifix (interestingly enough, our church has a crucifix with the corpus (body) rising to heaven so we call it the resurrected Jesus even though he’s still on the cross), adoration (where we kneel and pray in song or silence to Jesus), and the belief that we are actually having Jesus present in body and blood every mass, not just symbolizing him.
I also really find a lot of the symbols and prayers beautiful.
You probably won’t see this, but thank you anyway for this comprehensive answer.
It’s a confirmation of an impression I’ve had for some time now: while people can claim to belong to one religion or other, the underlying culture plays a huge role in how that religion is interpreted.
Man, and the first time I went to church with a friend, I was just weirded out by the idea of it alone. I can’t even fathom being weirded out by a different branch on the same tree.
As a (former) Catholic, I would have really welcomed the latitude to branch away from organ music or peppy acoustic guitar/piano riffs that steal blatantly from “Take Five”.
My dad’s group once played a bluegrass mass and there was practically rioting in the pews.
I wonder if Joyce will hit the books on this and discover such oddball facts as Catholicism’s relationship to Peter, scholarship, and views on salvation by deeds as well as faith.
Maybe she’ll also find out Jesus had brothers and sisters.
Hey, the fundamentalist cult I was raised in acknowledged that Jesus had (“half-“)siblings, even pointing out that one of the books of the Bible (Jude, I think?) was supposed to be written by one of said brothers.
Orthodox doctrine traditionally holds that Jesus’s siblings were Joseph’s children by a first wife. Don’t know when the Catholic church decided they should be cousins instead.
Same line of thinking that prevented DC from simply saying Robin was Batman’s son 40 years ago, or why Superboy isn’t Superman’s son – conservative thought kinda skitters away from the idea of anyone they idolize having messy, sticky, procreative sex.
Kinda like kids thinking of their parents having sex – EW!
I forget which comedian it was who said, some years ago, that when Jesus does come back he’s gonna look around at the symbol everyone’s chosen for “his” faith and be triggered as fuck. Screaming PTSD, anyone?
Given that this is the guy who had people poke at his wounds just to prove it was him, I don’t think he’s gonna have any problem with being reminded of what happened.
On the one hand, the Episcopal Church is absolutely the closest mainline protestant denomination to Catholicism in terms of ceremony. On the other, Joyce would probably still be freaking out at the level of ceremony in basically any other mainline protestant church, just maybe not quite as much.
I can’t speak to Episcopalians, but as a Catholic, the music now is all over the place, but nothing beats a really good choir and the Latin mass, if you’re looking for nothing more than a profound listening experience.
As one raised Episcopal, I agree with the music. The service is mostly in English, though parts of it are in Latin and I THINK that full Latin services are a thing some churches do sometimes. (Kindly don’t ask what translation the churches use. There are so many, and a new schism popped up every time someone tried to update the text. The one in the early 1980’s started what looks to be the slow end of the church I was raised in when the congregation of a too-small town split.)
As an atheist, this is probably 75% of the reason I prefer the old churches over the new ones. (Catholic, Episcopal, Orthodox…give me good vocal or instrumental music and I’m happy to listen to the rest of the blethers in between.)
Most of the mass is vague enough to be innocuous, though I’ll roll my eyes occasionally at things in the homily, but even as a Catholic, I go mostly for the music. The church I go to with my family has a really great choir and a big organ built right into the structure of the church, which has great acoustics. It’s great to listen to.
But I’ve never enjoyed a mass more than a Latin mass with a nationally renowned choir. They’re involved constantly, so it’s like a free concert, and a really good one. I didn’t know what was going on, because I speak exactly no Latin, but it was still immersive.
Learning a lot from this. I grew up Catholic in an area where there were quite a few Catholics or if not no one really discussed religion. I have a friend who is Jewish, another who is Muslim and never was I made to feel uncomfortable.
Only once did I ever meet someone with decidedly Anti-Catholic views, which at the time puzzled me. Since then I’ve learned that there are places where I might be made uncomfortable if the locals learned I was Catholic. This discussion is helping me understand this even more.
well, I thought that after all she been through she´d be more tolerant, especially of a related faith.
I was enjoying her stupid freak out but I think her character hasn’t grown as much as I thought
Remember way back when she first went to church here. She did not react favourably to other branches of Christianity – it is like you are either a true Christian or not a true Christian or a mega not a true Christian (Catholics in Joyce’s mind).
Joyce has grown more tolerant of certain groups of people (LGBT+) but not others (other branches in her religion).
I once wound up in a Catholic hospital during pretty scary sudden medical emergency, and while it was fine enough treatment-wise, I could not get over the fact that there was a crucifix over every door. EVERY DOOR. Visible from the bed!
Like, man, use the symbols you gotta use, you do you, but, uh, does it have to be a man slowly bleeding to death? Just feels a little, uh, unnerving when I’m also bleeding.
Noted, duly noted, leg-breaking made Jesus suffocate, that’s all filed away in my brain now. Definitely. Definitely wanted that mental image.
(Haha, I’m just kidding around. The whole thing *does* make me a bit squeamish, but I get all toe-curly at even third-rate horror movies, so, I’m kind of a wimp).
For suffocation, if the victim was bound with his feet supported, as Jesus was supposed to be, they’d hold themselves up until they were exhausted (which was the point, it made the execution longer and more unpleasant). Breaking their legs was ironically a mercy, as it prevented that, and ended things a lot faster – although it was also pretty violent, and probably helped with the whole ‘scaring the onlookers’ part.
Actually, according to some Christian legend, Jesus died of a spear thrust into his side. Others say they were going to break his legs, but noticed that he wasn’t breathing, and stabbed him to make sure. There are a lot of differing legends about this.
At least according to the biblical story, Jesus didn’t die from leg-breaking; he died before then, “in fulfillment of prophecy that not a bone of his would be broken” or somesuch.
Also, Onyx, the breaking-legs-thing is supposed to “speed up” the suffocation process – if your leg-bones are intact, they support your own body weight and thus prolong the death process.
Yeah, that’s what I thought. I think it was Guru’s wording that gave me a mental hiccup. The way I read it was that the breaking directly caused the suffocation.
No no Joyce, you’ve got it all wrong! The cross reminds us how the J-man died for our sins! After all, because of Adam and Eve (mostly Eve tho) we are all born in sin except someone told me that in the original bible the word sin is first mentioned when Kain kills Abel but that’s humanity for you *joins Joyce in screeching*
what’s wrong with robes, Joyce? many jobs have special outfits to wear at work. I feel sorry for Jacob here, hearing that all the things in his church are strange and wrong.
I thought Protestants avoided crucifixes because of the “no graven images, and especially no bowing to them” commandment, and that that’s also why Catholics don’t teach that commandment?
I figured crucifixes being kinda grim was a minor concern compared to, y’know, idolatry
Context: raised Catholic, only found out the Protestant Ten Commandments were different after de converting to atheism
In my experience, crucifixes are ok as artistic artefacts but definitely not as objects of worship. Maybe the fact that Jesus himself isn’t typically on the Protestant crucifix makes it not a graven image?
A representation of Jesus is the definition of religious idol. This is also why Protestant churches don’t have pictures of God/Jesus/the saints in stained glass. No images was one of the core principles of Luther’s reform afaik, didn’t know American fundies had invented their own rationale for a Christ-free cross.
In Catholic theology, a crucifix is not idolatry but is instead iconography. Iconography is different from Idolatry in that it is not the object itself but the story it represents that one uses as means for the focusing of prayers and meditating on spiritual mysteries of faith. Having a cross instead of a crucifix is still using an icon, just a less elaborate icon. Of course, some people have different dividing lines between the two. And that’s where the Protestant vs Catholic debate tends to get heated. Catholics are generally much broader in what is or can be considered a religious icon, where Protestants are much stricter.
that that’s also why Catholics don’t teach that commandment?
That is totally part of one of the Commandments as listed by the Catholic Church. The first, in fact. It’s not broken off into a separate commandment like some Protestants do, because that whole section is all about the same thing.
And, frankly, the ‘I am a jealous god’ explanation He gives doesn’t really leave a lot of room for an ‘and I include Myself in that, once I incarnate among you’ interpretation.
Per above, this agnostic figures it something like this:
Some (most?) people are really into icons, idols, etc etc.
People who identify as religious are more likely to fall within this set (IMO).
People are really good at making up justifications/reasons/excuses for why the things they want are okay.
Most of the attempts to ban icons, or a certain kind of icon, are (IIRC) based on trying to establish tribal/brand identity – those other people do this, but we’re different (and their way is wrong), so we don’t.
This, however, runs afoul of all the same problems as any other attempt at prohibition of things that people really like.
Does fundie culture inculcate you with terrible taste in music, or is terrible taste in music one of the core common beliefs (along with prosperity gospel, anti-choice, anti-Darwinism) of fundie culture? Headcanon says people with a propensity for loud and cheesy guitar decided to make it legit by adding Jesus. (Also, speaking for my ears alone, give me a Latin choir and the Benedictus any day.)
As a person who was raised Protestant in a majority Roman Catholic country outside of the USA (and attended Catholic schools):
1) I heard from some Catholic profs and teachers I had that removing the Christ image from the cross dilutes the message of the cross, essentially making it more “generic” as a symbol rather than a specifically Christian one. This philosophy about celebrating death rather than the resurrection is new!
2) Growing up my experience of Protestant Christianity was that it was much more liberal not only in ceremonial form (yes, our church had electric guitars) but in dogma, and Catholicism was deeply conservative, also both in form and dogma. It’s very interesting to see trends here in the comment section and in the comic itself (considering that the Episcopalian Church is a “hippie church,” but very Catholic in form) show the reverse. I actually expected Joyce’s church to resemble a Catholic one and Jacob’s to be a jeans-and-t-shirt/gymnasium one.
Cross being meaningful is actually quite important in Catholicism. The whole “Guilt and repentance” and “Carrying your own cross” like Christ did. Basically we have to carry our own crosses through our lives to earn the place in Heaven and all that.
American Protestants seem to be all about “We go to Heaven because we are the One True Christians and the rest are heretics who will go to Hell.”
I was talking about my own experiences with and in both groups, not making a generalization that applies in all cases. I understand that “Protestants” can cover a lot of denominations, but I only recall Christians in my country outside of some very specific local sects calling themselves “Protestant” rather than referring to specific denominations.
I’m not a big religious guy. My Immediate family, that is my dad and mum (Sister doesn’t count for this example, she gets to go through the same thing as I did) were really…off. My mum is a spiritual woman, has her own beliefs about the spirits of the ancestors and the elements, cherry picked from several religions around the world. My old man is an atheist, mostly as a reaction against HIS immediate family, who are deeply devout Christians (I’m not sure denomination, I think they are some kind of evangelics but believe in Mary And Saints and I dunno what the shit). They are the ones I got most of my “religious” education from, and while they are very evangelic, what I got was a very basic “God, Jesus and Mary are the important ones, there’s some saints around”. My maternal grandparents arenon.church catholics. Which means they pray at night before sleeping, they praise god, but can’t be arsed to go to church.
Ultimately, what my paternal family tried to teach me never really took. I was deeply Atheist for most of high school, which was kinda a big trouble with the school’s headmaster because the school was a catholic school (School system in my country is different than america, too long to explain, let’s just say that non-private schools in my country do not give a good education). As I’ve aged, I’ve learned to mostly ignore the different churches and cherry pick my beliefs, like my mother has.
OF course, this means, where I to live in america, I’d be promptly rejected by many religious people for not following a certain dogma. Most likely, based on what I’ve seen so far, I’d likely be told I’m not a real “Insert-religion-here”, and they’d likely be right! For example, I can identify with Catholics and their belief of helping the needy. Yet I am not a part of that organization, and just take that belief for my own.
You are Waaaay off Joyce. Catholics kinda celebrate both his sacrifice at the cross and his resurrection, it’s kind of a package deal, you can’t really have one without the other.
Heh this reminds, there is this series of Polish novels “I, Inquisitor” about an alternate reality world where Christ got pissed off, stepped off from the Cross and slaughtered half the Jerusalem. Christianity in that world is Much nastier, and on purpose too.
To start with they threw all the “Be nice to each other” out the window. And Angels are absolutely Terrifying… they also want to capture and torture the protagonist for eternity because they think that God became him to understand Humanity and abandoned the Angels. They want to torture the protagonist so that when God reverts back he can understand the pain he caused the Angels.
It’s a messed up world.
It’s a very very bizarre world. And I didn’t even get to the part where some mystical Christian monks have Jesus in their basement and keep him from dying by dripping angel blood on him, from cutting up living fallen angels chained to the ceiling.
So I guess the answer to Jess’s question of whether anyone fucks Jesus is a “no”, then. Being covered in fallen angel blood is probably a pretty big turn-off for most people.
Eh, he keeps absorbing it and the effect quickly wears off so it’s probably the light shower of angel blood that would put people off. Then again some people would be probably into that.
Have these been translated into English? I tried to Google, but all that’s coming up is Dragon Age. (Which offers its own theological debates, but they’re not particularly relevant to this discussion.)
Okay, filthy agnostic here, but what’s wrong with celebrating the bloody sacrifice? Like, isn’t the whole point that Jesus let himself get tortured and killed in order to save the… souls of humanity or something…
…like I said, agnostic, but the point is, it’s a sacrifice. The pain and suffering and, oh yeah, death are things to be honored, not because Jesus got off on torture (sorry god, if you’re there, maybe a bit over the line), but because it was something he was doing for the sake of others.
If anything, the resurrection is the weaker part of it, because it lessens the tragedy of the sacrifice…
The point is that Yes, Jesus was tortured and died on the cross to atone for our Sins. But then he beat the snot out of Satan or whatever and returned from the dead. Kicking the Door to Heaven open for us so we can all return to life and go to Heaven just like he did. There is a line in one prayer I think which literally says that he Beat Death for us.
Well, quite a few Christians think the “death” part was unnecessary if not for the fact humans were assholes. There’s a serious flavor to Christianity that thinks God dying for our sins was necessary while others just point out it reflects awfully on us and Jesus coming back was just showing God was around that.
I am from a sect of Christianity that was as evangelical and literalist as Joyce’s, but the particular flavor of Evangelicality I came out of hated electric guitars and amps.
Oh god, does that mean she grew up with… PRAISE MUSIC? The dread. The terror. At least I got decent hymns.
An almost ridiculously High Church Episcopalian church.
When I was still vaguely Anglican the church I attended was rather Low Church and occasionally broke out the electric guitars.
My mother was rather high church and rather dissatisfied with this, so she went to the local catholic church on a couple of occasions, in search of smells & bells. The only problem was that that church was even more relaxed and into the drums & guitar than our church, so she swore off in disgust. Me & my siblings found this all hilarious.
Well, I can’t talk for Episcopalian churches, but the Anglican churches in Africa & the UK we attended when I a child and teen were largely so Low Church they were almost Methodist. A source of annoyance to my mother, as she was rather High Church. But the CoE did a history of exiling reformers to Africa.
…and here I am, an Orthodox-raised girl, and for most of my life my impression of why our crosses didn’t have Jesus sounded as such: “how else would people know we’re not Catholic?”
(this is also the explanation for why wearing crosses on your neck is a near-mandatory thing: like, technically you don’t have to, but it just means you’re hiding that you’re Christian)
maybe I got that impression from history lessons, coz my country was kind of historically squeezed between Muslims to the south, Catholics to the west, and… well, other Orthodox peoples to the west, but we only actually invited Russians to come and help us in the 17th century, and even then it only took for half the country, up until the mess at the start of the 20th century, whereupon everyone got forcibly converted to atheism and wearing a cross was basically a martyrdom dealie.
I guess the cross with Jesus on it also looks kinda morbid and overly-fancy to me, but given how pretty Orthodox crosses are made, it’s rather obviously just what I’m used to.
Legends say that every dog within a 15-mile radius of that church ran inside on that day, fearing for their lives from something no-one else could see or hear. Locals referred to this phenomenon as “The Great Spookening”.
Joyce has yet to talk properly to Asma, or meet Nash. Her reactions to the Sunni aspects of Islam will be … interesting. Presumably there will be a Shi’ite character for balance?
I am slightly disappointed that Willis hasn’t gotten an Iroquois character involved – that really would be a life-changer for Joyce.
Things like this make me realize how different church was where I grew up compared to the rest of the world. Church was something we only went to during Christmas, Easter, weddings, baptisms and funerals. Not that people weren’t Christians, but they didn’t typically feel closer to God inside a huge building as much as they did just being outside surrounded by nature. I think the only ones who went to church every sunday was the priest and her husband. And also the host of the local radio station in the basement, who happened to be a Leninist atheist.
I liked the Halloween chapter. Jesus and Buddha dressed as vampires, Saint Michael as Satan; Jesus is concerned his dad will be angry because Halloween is a pagan thing, but then the Holy Spirit joins them, disguised as a raven…
Also, they hang with Lucifer, who is shown to be an adult man forever stuck in the rebellious teen stage (no wonder they kicked him out of Heaven). He mostly plays soccer now…
I was raised Catholic and I am learning that I missed out on A LOT. Protestants have electric guitars and dancing at church??? At least we had snack time.
I was also raised Catholic, and my idea of “devout” was “someone who went to Mass every day, happily” v. the “drag me there as a kid once a week”.
There was an organ. That’s it. I still like organ music and pipe organs to this day. Electric guitars and church were something I didn’t even think to think of. I’m old enough to have been well into adulthood when “Christian rock” started to be a thing.
Joyce is the most appealing realistic-ish fictional devout character I’ve read in ever. The fact that her trigger is no electric guitars? is about the funniest thing I ever heard.
One of my most vivid memories of my Catholic upbringing is realizing how my perfect pitch worked when I got bugged that a hymn we usually did had changed from minor key to major. Music and choir is a huge part of why church and religion were worth something to me.
…and I’m sure Marie Antoinette would be totally cool with having her symbol be a guillotine. Just so long as you don’t actually show her decapitated corpse. Because THAT would be tacky. 😑
She’s spent too many years reading Chick Tracts and generally being misled by other sources not to have a lot of residual mental damage.
Knowing she is a good, kind person despite all her faults is what keeps me from disliking her, some days. At least there’s little chance she’ll be as weak as she was in the “It’s Walky!” continuity.
This seems like a fairly accurate representation of an Episcopalian church except for the whole “crucifix with a Jesus on it” thing. I was raised Episcopalian, I have seen quite a few Episcopal churches, and NONE of them had a Jesus on the wall. I have always associated the crosses with dead Jesus on them with specifically Catholic churches, and I always found them mildly unsettling at least partly because I was NOT used to it. Also, dead guy.
Jesus-on-the-cross is not necessarily dead, but dying. The whole point of crucifixes is to point out the fact that Jesus suffered. Crucifixes can be off-putting, yes. You should see some of the hyper-realistic Medieval crucifixes that were made in Europe. Mel Gibson’s got nothing on them, I swear.
Ah good point. If I remember right he only died after… Longinus was his name I think, stabbed him in the heart with a spear and almost after that he got taken off to be buried.
Kevin Smith was making fun of the “Buddy Christ” in Dogma to say he thought it was a serious misstep to remove the crucifix. A lot of people apparently said they preferred it to the image of him dying.
I have to admit, I prefer to think of the (apparently) cool dude he was while he was alive, and the things he tried to teach, rather than the “tortured to death” part, heroic sacrifice or not. It seems to sort of elevate the latter above the former, almost to the point of saying only the second part mattered.
I can understand you although what Jesus taught is so widely talked about that I don’t really think that his death overshadowing his teachings is really an issue. Or at least it isn’t where I came from. It’s just… we thank him for his suffering and sacrifice while learning his teachings and attempting to follow them. They are kinda sorta two important but separate things.
At least according to the biblical story, Jesus was already dead then – Longinus’s stabbing was because the guys in charge of the execution didn’t believe he had died so quickly (crucifixion being a very drawn-out method of execution), and they wanted to make sure he was dead before they took him down.
Years and years of having every minute detail of this story drilled into you will make you recall stuff like that, I guess. 😛
This is surprisingly very Catholic in appearance. Forgive my ignorance, being mostly Baptist raised yet Catholic taught, but I did NOT see that coming.
From what I read in the comments this denomination is apparently an offshoot of Anglicanism which in turn kept a lot of Catholic rituals and appearances.
Episcopal churches are very liturgical/high church compared to most Protestant denominations but also not as conservative as some evangelical churches if I remember correctly from my church history class. It’s like… about as close to Catholic as you can get without actually being catholic.
A lot of this has me in Jacob’s shoes because Joyce is basically freaking out about a lot of bog-standard normal stuff in Anglicanism, the boring normal church the Queen’s in. Cultural divides!
It’s worth stressing though, that Joyce was raised fundamentalist; so her idea of what a “proper” church looks like
What confused me is the shimmying and the electric guitars, since in Scotland, fundamentalists would be horrified by both those things. You don’t go to church to enjoy yourself.
And some American fundamentalist churches are like that as well. They’d consider a lot of what goes on in the churches Joyce is familiar with very wrong.
I find Rich Mullins a fascinating selection for the punchline.
He was born in Indiana and died just up the road from Bloomington. Joyce and other Hoosier evangelicals would love his songs and claim him, but He also questioned the differences between the christian faiths, much like Joyce is now undergoing.
She is pretty good at it, given time and a bit of support. It’s just that the world keeps slum-dunking her all the time and she has a LOT of stuff to unlearn.
I would associate electric guitars with a modern laidback hippie liberal church, not one that is all about bigotry and biblical literalism. That warrants a huge, honking pipe organ and nothing else, because modern instruments (not to mention music you can tap your fingers to) are tools of the devil.
America, you’ve got your different kinds of christianity all backwards. 😛
I can understand where you’re coming from. But the church that had my brother’s attention 20 years ago was that sort of thing: energetic, passionate, and the first time I heard about the “literal Firmament that caused higher air pressure which allowed dinosaurs to fly and people to have extended lifespans.”
They also insisted, apparently, that the phrase “Good Luck” was evil, and secretly meant, “May Lucifer be good to you.”
Joyce, sweetie, you’re not 10, you are a young adult going to college, no religious upbringing justifies your current behavior, you are an adult, you do not SCREAM IN CHURCH.
I left the Petancostal faith YEARS ago, it was sheltered as heck, everything was a sin, we stayed in our tight little communities and the rest of the world were filthy sinners.
And then my Grandma took me to her mormon church…
I did not start to scream, and I was like 7/8 at the time, and knew that this was the “wrong religion” (yay pentacostals -_-) but just focused on behaving myself.
Geezus Joyce, our backgrounds are so similar, and yet this reaction is like a child seeing a spider, not a grown woman who’s already used to confronting new ideas, confronting a new idea 🙁
(The faces are pure gold tho, and I’m not criticizing your writing Willis, I love it, she’s just too real for me atm XD)
To be honest, having been raised Catholic, I always found crucifixes pretty creepy. I would have chosen something like an ancient oil lamp, personally, or maybe a fiery phoenix-like bird. I like the Celtic trinity knots too.
Full disclosure: it took me a while to remember the word “trinity” because I kept thinking Triforce.
Meanwhile as someone who was raised Catholic I’m over here like “there are churches with ELECTRIC GUITARS?” I might have stayed religious if I’d gone to that church.
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“but how can Jesus totally JAM without a sweet guitar solo???”
or uh idk I went to an old people church (when I had to), both of these are foreign to me
I once played the cello in a bossa-nova-style duet that a woman one year my senior wrote based on an obscure hymn during my church’s offertory. Electric guitars do not impress me.
That sounds like that climax of an anime
Well I am an anime.
One of Jesus’ lesser known miracles was a truly face melting guitar riff which the multitudes where able to hear despite his guitar having no amps.
And then he set fire to the guitar. The flames burned around it but the guitar itself remained unharmed.
That was death metal Jesus, complete with crown of thorns and whipped bloody.
Jesus’ death metal phase occurred AFTER his resurrection, or course.
And he played it while it was burning!
My god, it does.
“I shall now perform a song written by my beloved senpai!” *cue epic cello*
My cousin played guitar for one of those hip young-people churches but my Nana always tried to go do a different church because she didn’t like the “jang-jang music”
your gravatar is perf for the comment btw
She’s gone straight to Flanders!
Sounds like she’s screeching nothing at all…nothing at all…nothing at all!
Stupid supersonic Joyce.
joyce to Jacob: “They told me Satan would be attractive…”
….so her old church must be satanic and this one holy?
AWOOOOO! AW, AW, AWOOOOOO!!! AWOOOOOO!!
This! ^
Idk, I think Jesus’ death is pretty cool.
Honestly that whole obsession on not having Jesus on the cross doesn’t really make sense to me. I can certainly get the idea that the resurrection should be the focus over the death, but wasn’t part of the whole idea that it was only because Jesus suffered for our sins on the cross that we got forgiven in the first place?
It really doesn’t make a difference to me since my personal theology doesn’t obsess over there only being a single rigid path to salvation as opposed to just focusing on being a good person in life, but the issue of iconography has always been so prickly for so many groups that I really try not to get involved in it.
Well, it’s a meaningless statement as it’s merely one of many small things which Protestants use to show how OBVIOUSLY Catholics are evil which aren’t. It’s because the issues of them murdering each other in the Renaissance are mostly over but the bad blood remains.
Thought one of the big difference was the importance we catholic gives to Marie
“YOU SHOULDN’T CELEBRATE HIS DEATH! ONLY THE MURDER WEAPON!
…
WAIT NO-”
Real talk though, I always thought that the argument about if he’s on the cross or not was dumb for this exact reason. If we’re supposed to use a symbol for his resurrection, it should be, like…. like a small, filled in circle that’s slightly offset from an outlined circle. To represent, like… the bolder moved out of the way of his crypt. Because that’s how you knew he was RESURRECTED? Or something? idk I was never a very good Christian but even as a kid this seemed weird to me.
I admit, I don’t even make the cross anymore but doodle the fish on my hand for my prayers. 🙂
Now I hear God speaking in Lew Zealand’s voice “I throw the fisherman and he comes back to me.”
Your fault entirely.
hm. Maybe the Star of Bethlehem? Like, then you’ve got the symbolism of a sign of hope without it being the murder weapon or corpse, as well as representing his ascension to heaven?
Stars are already taken for major religious groups.
Okay, fair point. There are drawbacks to brainstorming at 1AM.
Yeah – what ever happened to
“I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified” (1 Corinthians 2:2)
“Lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he’s gonna want to see a [beep]ing cross, man?
… kinda like going up to Jackie Onassis with a rifle pendant on, you know.” – Bill Hicks
I think it was Lenny Bruce who said that if Jesus was born in modern times Christians would be wearing little electric chairs round their necks. 🙂
A good example of a book using this iconography, as well as being an enjoyable sci-fi read, is Master of Time and Space, by Rudy Rucker.
I thought the issue was that it’s a form of icon, which violates a commandment?
Then again I always wondered why that doesn’t apply to the crucifix as well so I could be totally wrong.
Because the crucifix without Jesus is still proof against vampires.
Some people keep trying to get rid of icons (because the Other Guys do it, and we’re Not Like Them), but it turns out that people really really like/dig/need icons, so in practice it works about as well as any other prohibition.
To be fair, there are also denominations which disapprove of wearing the cross as an accessory as well! 😀
To celebrate how Jesus overthrew the Romans’ attempt to murder him via crucifixion, obviously the religious symbol should be an upside-down crucifix! 😛
That’s St Peter’s cross I think. He was crucified upside-down. It’s suuuuuper Catholic
Actually, TECHNICALLY the cross didn’t kill him. The crucifix is a torture device, not a murder weapon. Exposure and dehydration are what usually kill crucified people. The cross simply ensured they died painfully and publicly.
BUT, in Jesus’ case, none of these things actually killed him. He survived for three or four days on the cross, according to legend. He was finally killed by a Roman legionnaire, who ran a spear into him. Whole Spear of Longinus legend.
I was under the impression the typical cause of death by crucifixion was asphyxiation? As exhaustion sets in, the person is no longer able to lift their body up, and with the arms outstretched, they cannot exhale without lifting themselves.
Also, I’m pretty sure, at least as far as the bible is concerned, Jesus was dead before he was stabbed? Not sure about other lore, but the biblical description re: the spear indicates, at the very least, he likely had pleural and/or pericardial effusion, which would have made it hella difficult for him to still be alive in a physical situation that made it hard to breathe. *shrugs*
mmmm, no, that’s not right. I mean, maybe there’s some non-canonical legend you’re referring to, but I’m pretty sure that Biblically speaking Jesus died the same day He was crucified (around 3 o’clock, so maybe that’s where you’re getting the 3 from? Or the three days between death and resurrection?). The spear was just to check.
“It should be, like… a small, filled in circle that’s slightly offset from an outlined circle”. We should put something on there to symbolize Jesus’s soul, too, getting resurrected in the tomb. Like a little white star, on top of the filled-in circle. Perfect!
Or perhaps a white dot… and you know there’s should be a little black dot in the empty circle to represent Mary Magdalene.
…
Wait a minute
well, the cross wasn’t the murder weapon, just the… canvas?
I mean sure, nails had to go into SOMETHING, but basically the ACCESSORY to murder
I thought that the issue with having Jesus on the cross was that it sort of bordered on idolatry? Like, you make an actual objective representation of Jesus Himself.
I know Catholics love us some statues, and that “veneration” thing looks an awful lot like old school paganism when you take a step back. (Ever been to a May Crowning? We did that at school when I was a kid, and even as a kid I was like, “Huh, this is kind of…pagan-y.” I dunno, maybe it was all the ~scary fantasy books~ I read or something.)
I think it kind of depends on how you were raised in general. As a kid a though the crucifix was weird and morbid and the Catholics I knew did nothing to dispel that perception (very old fashioned, preVatican II Catholics). It seemed preoccupied with the method of his death rather than the miracle of his resurrection. I have been to some churches that had only one cross on the wall or even one that only had a shadow visible because we live in the shadow of the cross because we are saved by sacrifice but should not be preoccupied by that aspect. Some churches did not like the film The Passion of the Christ for that reason. Wearing a cross was not offensive, but it was also not a THING.
I feel like as an adult it has become more of a thing and I don’t know how much of that has to do with moving back to the south versus what seems to me to be a growing trend (nationwide) towards public piety
As a Jewish kid, having any representation of the cross seemed super morbid, but seeing him suffer up there made it more visceral. My natural response was that it looked painful and upsetting. I understand the meaning to my Christian pals, but, I suspect you have to be raised Christian to have warm fuzzy feelings about Love when you look at a guy all suffering and bloody, no matter the cause he’s suffering for.
I mean… The catholic church has historically been very morbid, there’s no way around that, and Jesus is not the only one depicted in how he dies. Walk through older cathedrals in Europe and you’ll notice that it’s very common to depict the saints in the way they were martyred (Shot with arrows, crucified in creative ways, hung, decapitaded or in the case of Saint Bartholomew: Skinned). Skulls, bones and other symbols of death and dismemberment are not uncommon decor. One castle I’ve been to had the chapel only accessible by going through a torture chamber. During the times death was everywhere and the church wasn’t shy about reminding you and by the way have you heard of our life-after-death package?
I guess my point is I wouldn’t be surprised if Jesus’ presence on the crucifix is more of a case of “It was just how it was done” and that any theological reason was tacked on afterwards.
Admitted Atheist slash agnostic person chiming in here, but isn’t his death theoretically more important than his resurrection? I thought the whole point was that he died for “our” sins. The resurrection is cool, but shouldn’t it be the sacrifice that gets commemorated?
Yes a big point is that he died for our sins (speaking as a Baptist here), but the way I was taught is that that would be meaningless without him rising afterwards and thus conquering death.
Can you explain that to me? From an outside perspective the sacrifice seems more meaningful without the resurrection.
That’s really the crux of the difference between Catholics and thier like versus the others. Catholics are all about penance. Christ’s death for ‘our’ sins was the ultimate penance that they seek. Neeling before god they ask for forgiveness. Protestants are about the resurrection, or re-birth. Christ was risen and then ascended into heaven. Standing before god arms raised they ask to be saved.
The death is the sacrifice and it’s meant as Christ taking all of our sins upon Himself, so yes, it’s important like that.
The resurrection, as I understand my catechism (and it’s been a while) is what “conquered death.” As my mom’s pentacostal folks call it, it’s “The Vict’ry.” I swear, you can HEAR the capital letters when they say it. But no, seriously, that’s kind of the big thing. The death is the sacrifice, but without the victory of the resurrection, all it would have been would be a sacrifice with nothing truly won at the end, theologically speaking.
Huh. And here I was thinking that Jesus died on the cross because that’s how the Romans liked to deal with profligates.
Yeah, as far as deaths go, he nailed it.
BAER
I never thought you wood cross this line, but I agree – Jesus was well hung, so why not put him on display …
I wrist you wooden make puns like that.
I agree. It’s rood.
I understand, knot everyone is on board with this type of humor.
Too soon…
Yeah, I should give him time to deliver a good come-back.
Chalk me up into the “IDGI” column, too. It’s been… decades, but humanity’s salvation lie in Jesus’ death. “Hey, thanks for dying horrifically for our sins. We’re gonna accept you as our personal lord and savior in thanks. Kthxbye.”
Cool? I don’t know, Jesus’ death just seems… unnecessary.
I mean, why would an omnipotent deity need to create a loophole for His own rules, by being born of a virgin so He could commit “suicide by cop” in order to forgive us for things we things we haven’t done yet, all so that we can avoid a punishment that He created?
It’s like God’s Rube Goldberg forgiveness device.
Yeah Man.
“What does God need with a Starship?”
see also http://piecomic.tumblr.com/post/165627683267
I don’t write these things, I just wonder at certain interpretations of them.
I think it has to do with the presence of blood atonement (i.e., the need to produce a sacrifice to seek God’s forgiveness) in the Old Testament. Jesus, by being the ultimate blood sacrifice, made possible a direct path between humanity and God. Or something.
electric guitar? in a church?
It’s more likely than you think.
ywell yeah, how else are you gonna play the hip contemporary christian music for everyone to sing along with and get an emotional high off of, reinforcing the association between asserting christian beliefs and feeling all righteous and loved and stuff
i mean, OBviously you gotta have all that or else what even is the POINT of going to church
Pff, kids these days. I like my religion grim, with the threat of eternal suffering and hellfire, thank you very much.
You’re welcome.
— The Spanish Inquisition (which nobody expects)
Hey, young people are leaving the religion in droves! You got to do SOMETHING to appeal to kids today, right? That means electric guitar, right?
While electric guitars are cool and all, I posit that they alone do not make much difference in whether or not people stick with a particular religion/denomination/theistic belief, and that in fact by focusing on materialist trappings like guitars, “youth leaders” and the like have actually ended up neglecting the real fundamentals.
But then, I’m an atheist.
So am I. And sarcastic to boot.
I became an Atheist when I figured out Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy weren’t real. Dunno, I just thought God was part of that bunch.
I legit became atheist from Slip-n-Slide.
Knocked the wind out of myself by being too impatient to let it get sufficiently wet and would’ve died if my mother hadn’t been able to resuscitate me
Coming back was literally like waking up, including a weird dream just before I did–no big mystery
Musical instruments, at large. I mean, just being it’s an electric guitar doesn’t mean they’ll play death metal.
They should dab. Not just now, when it’s a few months stale, but forever. Dabbing should become an intrinsic part of church services. That’ll keep the kids keen.
Pie Jesu Dominae *dab* Donna aes requem *dab*
DAB DAB DAB
Yeah, I’ve heard Christian music, and it does not appeal. I’ve heard Christian music set to electric guitar, and it still does not appeal.
… OK, I DO admit to sometimes liking Amy Grant, but THAT DOESN’T COUNT
Why not? Unless your church excludes instruments from church music, of course.
The organ, the harp, the psaltery — they weren’t always ancient instruments. At some point, some medieval music director brought a harpist in, and a whole bunch of the congregation were all, “a HARPIST? in CHURCH?”
Oh come on. King David played a harp.
Fine, a harpsichord.
The Church I grew up in didn’t have amps for the electric guitars, either.
They just jacked directly into the sound system. 😛
I was surprised to learn that there are churches that disallow instrumental music. Because primitive Christians …
Blew my mind the first time I saw them in church, too.
I try not to be judgey about worship styles, ranging from hours-long whole group singing and dancing to literal silence. Worship is about the heart. It’s an act of love, and love can be quiet at tender or it can be frightened or it can be excited; as long as it’s honest love of God and your siblings under Him, it’s worship. Centuries old music can make one feel connected to the brothers and sisters that came before you; dancing can remind one that your body is good and of God; it’s a temple of the Holy Spirit, fearfully and wonderfully made.
And silence is a friggin’ relief. Oh man. I did not stick with the Quakers for long, but maybe a 20-minute quiet time is a solid plan for most church services and could be adopted more widely.
So I guess what throws me off with the worship style of Joyce’s home church (which clearly isn’t pentacostal / gospel / ame style, but neither is it ancient high-church music that’s been practiced and treasured for centuries) is that it feels insincere, I guess. With other styles, I get the holy purpose that belies the style. But with the pop / soft-rock Switchfoot-style worship music, I don’t really understand how that is supposed to bring one closer to God or spirituality? What are people going for?
What a thoughtful comment. And I agree. Music is one of the best things about Christianity, whether it’s High Church hymns or modern gospel (or a mixture – I loved Sister Act). The evangelical pop I’ve heard bits of (thanks to Willis and my own morbid curiosity) just sounds like baloney insofar as the point is a religious experience through music. I mean it’s just bad music and that is bound to have an effect on how you spiritually relate to your god.
The church I was raised in did both, and did it differently for different demographics. There were distinct periods reserved for being quiet, and sometimes that would end when the worship leader kicked off with something sedate, to give people time to shift out of the reflection into something more exuberant.
Choosing the actual music is pretty important: a lot of CCM is terrible for worship purposes, and a good group will recognize that. But some of it is actually really good. My favorite is probably “Overflow,” by Geoff Moore.
Having participated in these services with these types of music, I can assure you that it can absolutely work for what you describe it to be. I also knew the people who led the worship well (I often stayed after to help clean up, just to hang out), and they were some of the most down-to-earth, soft-spoken, polite, and kindest people I’ve ever known. The lead musician could sometimes guitar solo, and sometimes the drums really cut loose, but, partly because I KNOW them, it always, always remained about directing attention to God through the medium of a music style that resonated with, well, us high school/college kids.
That’s really cool. I appreciate having different styles as part of a single group in order to meet different kinds of people where they’re at.
I’m glad that the people who led the worship at those services had genuine spiritual intent. Honestly, I’m probably more willing to give half-hearted liturgical worship services more benefit of the doubt than awkward contemporary-style services, just because I’ve been to more of them and I’m more familiar with them.
But, that’s not really fair. Something to think on, I guess.
> What are people going for?
IMO? Community. A literal sense of belonging. Being part of something that’s bigger than yourself.
Possibly other things, but that’s a big one.
That was my thought.. We have had drums organ acoustic guitars with amplification, but I
grew up Catholic Episcoplalian and don’t know much about capital “C” protestant brand christianity.
If you want musicians, finding someone who plays electric guitar is easy. Cello is hard. And electric guitars can sound like nearly anything because their electric.
BTW, Silent Night was written for solo guitar.
Well, as the counter-protestors at Planned Parenthood danced to Karma Chameleon to drown out the Pro-Lifers, one of the abolitionists came up to me and calmly informed me that there would be, “No slick ’80s jams in Hell.”, so I guess all the guitarists go to Heaven by default.
That’s pretty funny, considering what they think happens to people like Boy George
What’s a Rich Mullins?
Christian Rock personality.
First time the words “Christian Rock” and “personality” have ever been uttered in sequence.
For persons of a certain age, Cliff Richards qualifies. :^_^
First time since St. Peter, anyway. :p
Umm, Amy Grant?
NOT THAT I LIKE HER OR ANYTHING
When your tee shot goes ten feet and you start over.
*chuckles evilly * Yes Joyce. See us Catholics as we are. Soon you will be one of us.
No, Joyce! Don’t do it! They draw you in with papal succession and a thoroughly-constructed ecclesiology, but before you know it you’re doing ten Hail Marys and arguing vehemently in the literalness of the transubstantiation of the eucharist!
Uh…. am I the only one remembering they’re not actually Catholic?
…. Yes? I am?
…. very well, carry on.
Twas making a joke, I remember that they are Episcopalians. . . . I think that’s the right way to say that.
It’s a slippery slope, I tells ya! My mom was Episcopal, and when she married my dad, she decided to convert to Catholicism! COINCIDENCE!?!
You know how it is, you flirt with Episcopalism and before you know it, you find yourself on your knees before a crucifix, wearing a rosary and doing Hail Mary’s.
So…. it’s a narrow gateway-religion?
Eye-of-the-needle religion.
Yeah, but Mary *gets* it.
(Mary as in “mother of God,” not “awful demon classmate,” obviously)
*the sound of stained glass shattering*
BY GAWD, THAT’S STONE COLD!
“John 3:16?? Austin 3:16 says I just whooped your ass!”
No guitars? That’s a deal-breaker right there.
Churches should have keytars. Then they can play organ music, but still rock.
Ok ok, hear me out: jazz organ. We can get some sweet sweet Ray Charles-esque action going on in here.
Joyce is going to look back on this one day, and be soooo embarrassed at her own behaviour.
Don’t most adults exist in a perpetual state of humiliation at the every action they took when they were five or more years younger?
Just me, then? Sounds about right.
Nope, me too, for what it’s worth.
No, no. I still have panic attacks about the stupid shit I have said/done in the past.
Yo.
…. except sometimes I’m embarrassed about the stuff I did yesterday, too.
Roger here too.
…it probably helps a bit in that I was raised in a pretty culty fundamentalist group, but still.
I kind of got over that when I got to be over thirty, and got to know some kids. If I can accept that they are really dumb and/or really obnoxious at time and still love them, than I can extend the same courtesy to my younger self.
Or at least I try…
Which should probably mean I should accept all of the typos in that statement, too.
Only the honest ones.
Its ok. I thought the bowtie was cool.
I find this post exceptionally amusing because of your Usernym.
I remember stupid shit I said and believed twelve years ago like it happened ten minutes ago. On a daily basis.
She’s going to look back at THIS one day and be embarrassed?
She’s kinda already the Whiteboard Ding-Dong Bandit. I doubt anything else she does for the rest of the comic will be able to survive being drowned out by that.
“Oh, ho,” says Willis, “a challenge.”
Lies.
….. he won’t find that to be a challenge.
So about a month later then.
“Sometimes, I sit and think about every stupid thing I’ve ever done. All at once.”
As a lapsed Catholic, the reason why Catholic churches ‘celebrate’ Jesus’ crucifixion is to honour the fact that he sacrificed himself to free us from the original sin. To Catholics, this is the greater act than the resurrection.
… Just sayin’
Seriously I’m a protestant (sort of, it’s complicated) but I’d always understood that the whole suffering for our sins thing to be the crux of the whole religion. Sure it’s not exactly good to celebrate someone’s death, but it seems like there’s no harm in acknowledging that he really took one for the team by doing that.
…..
….. the CRUX of the whole religion?
….. I see what you did there.
Well don’t get cross over it.
Nailed it!
I’m just gonna let that hang there.
Hammer it home, why don’t you.
Got it to a T.
Upside down like Saint Peter.
As a young protestant, I always thought the problem with the crucifix was the same as with other imagery depicting god’s face.
Yeah, Catholics just kinda ignored that whole no-graven-images thing – that’s Old Testament, and OBVIOUSLY meant graven images of PAGAN gods, not of the REAL God.
Plus works a lot better a converting the Pagans than brute force.
I’m kind of with Joyce on the whole Jesus-on-the-crucifix thing. I mean, I’m really not feeling the cross either way, but having the dying man on it always makes me additionally uncomfortable.
I dunno, the cross just kind of feels…empty without the guy. 😉
They mean different things. Jesus on the cross symbolizes Christ’s suffering for our sins. The empty cross symbolizes Jesus’ resurrection, of his transcendence of his physical suffering.
I’m no theologian, but I believe it’s meant to celebrate Jesus’s martyrdom, by emphasizing how he suffered and died for the sins of humankind. It’s morbid, I’ll grant you that, especially to modern Christians, who are no longer the martyrdom culture they used to be. (Not that it’s a bad thing. Martyrdom cultures are toxic.)
I mean, I understand the reasoning and debate around the issue. But as someone who’s not religious, I just see him on the cross as a dying man, sooo…
I’m with Joyce’s stance, not her reasoning.
There are actually some interesting eschatological ramifications to which symbol is exhulted because it fundamentally changes what is viewed as the most important part of the Gospel narrative.
Of course this is all semantics but don’t tell the theologians that they look so happy
The cross is a symbol of crucifixion in any case. It makes little difference to take him off of it.
Oh you sweet summer child
I mean, when you get down to it, all the branches of Christianity have basically the same beliefs and message, right?
….
*flees*
*sighs* Yes but that has never stopped them from killing each other, sometimes it’s made it worse.
I can’t help but imagine Jesus saying this in a very exasperated tone to Confucius or Lao Tzu for some reason.
Islam and Christianity … no real difference ….
*run away*
What are you talking about? They’re completely different! Islam has WAY fewer child-molesting imams.
Heathens and Pagans will sometimes refer to all Abrahamic religions as “People of the Book”. Because it’s all basically the same pantheon, right? Plus that whole thing with the infallible holy text.
Some will group Satanists (not the modern, atheistic nihilist ones, but the ones Joyce is scared of) in with the rest as well, because, again, same pantheon. They may be following different figures in the same group, or have differing interpretations of the various characters; but from a Wiccan or Asatru perspective, it’s still all followers of the same pantheon, and not much different from going, “Hey, you follow Odin? Cool! I’m a Thorsman myself! We’re practically kindred! Let’s go get a beer!”
–Except for some reason the followers of the various flavours of Abrahamic religion seem hate each other instead. :/
Islam long officially treated Christians and Jews as “People of the Book” and treated them better than pagans. Subordinate within Islamic countries, but allowed to practice their faiths, etc.
That’s changed somewhat in practice, but that’s more current political tension than doctrine.
Except that the two main branches of Islam are only few steps away from killing each while with Christianity interdenominational fighting has largely disappeared.
The conflict between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland wasn’t that long ago.
Honestly, I’d say the change is more that the West is much more secular then most Islamic countries and than it used to be. Islam tends to have much more control over the countries it’s dominant in.
Christian sects may well revert to warring among themselves, if they weren’t largely kept down by secular power structures in the main Christian states.
Or they might just start by fighting other religions first. It’s not like some Christians haven’t tried to push the idea of the fight against terrorism as a Holy War.
The conflict in NI is more political and only becomes sectarian during the marching season. At least since around 2000.
Some Christian sects think other Christian sects are different religions.
ha ha ha fuck off
But seriously, the only Muslims trying to kill other Muslims are terrorists about as closely associated with actual Islam as that asshole who shot up that black church was with actual Christianity.
There’s plenty of official, government sanctioned repression and other pressure against non conformists in Islamic societies to go around though.
Of course, some people believe it makes a great deal of difference. But the real reason, historically, was because Protestants didn’t want the finery and ornamentation of the Catholic Church, because they viewed it as corrupt. So they went with just a plain cross as opposed to the often highly decorated Catholic crucifixes of the time. The theological justification was invented later.
<truefacts>That is how the Christian do.<truefacts>
I mean I love the philosophical implications of inequal cardinalities of entity and person as much as the next demiguy but the trinity was created to justify Santa Clause punching a dude in the face for badmouthing Mary
I may be slightly exaggerating but you won’t look it up because you don’t want to be disappointed
Hahahaha I’ll take your word for it, because it just sounds so good that way.
Well, clearly it does to some people because of their beliefs. For me it’s more like the difference of a knife vs someone being stabbed with a knife, so it’s still a difference.
(the difference of an image showing a knife vs…)
That’s not a knife, it’s a cell phone!
A knife is used for a lot of things, not just stabbing people. The Christian cross has its meaning exclusively because of crucifixion. I get what you mean though.
Without Jesus there, how can you know which crucifixion it was? For all you know, you could be accidentally celebrating some random criminal who totally deserved being crucified.
Well, how do you know it’s actually Jesus there? Generally he looks like some white guy, not a Middle Eastern Jew from ~2000 years ago.
While it seemed like a cheap joke, Kevin Smith has gone on record as saying the “Buddy Christ” in Dogma actually is a serious thing he was annoyed at with religion. While he’s all about serious reform, he thinks the whole point of the crucifix is it’s a serious subject. This coming from a pro-choice, pro-euthanasia (under certain circumstances), pro-sex very devout Catholic.
It’s not supposed to make you feel comfortable. It’s supposed to make you feel guilty for the terrible sinner that you are. “Look at how much this sucked. And he did it FOR YOU.”
There’s a reason there’s a whole thing called “Catholic guilt”. Focusing on the resurrection means you get to celebrate. Focusing on the death means you ought to be depressed.
Emotional health is not Christianity’s forte.
Thing is, I never really understood the whole “Catholic guilt” thing, as someone who grew up Catholic. We have confession, why should we be constantly obsessed with guilt? We can just go in and get our sins forgiven at any moment. If anything, it felt like the opposite stereotype should be given too us.
You don’t even have to ‘go in’. You can Confess to a friend. You could even Confess in private to God directly, acknowledging that you have sinned out loud. I forget how penance is supposed to work in those cases, but I do remember the lead priest at my church stressing that if you weren’t comfortable confessing to him or his, to at least confess in private occasionally after your First Confession.
Er… I’ve been Catholic almost my entire life and I’ve never heard of that. Priests are the only ones allowed to forgive sins. If you’re not comfortable with the priest at your own parish, there’s nothing wrong with going to a different parish where the priest doesn’t know you, but you can’t confess to anyone who isn’t a priest and you certainly can’t confess in private (except maybe in extreme circumstances, e.g. if you’re in danger of death).
I think we can chalk that up to differences in individual churches? I only have the two Home churches I’ve had to base this on, but both were very firmly on the side of “God’s forgiveness is infinite, but you must seek it, even if it’s in a small way.”
I really don’t know, but maybe it has something to do with needing to confess those sins in some way? And penance. Whereas some Christians I know seem to pretty much view their sins–at least minor sins, though I guess for some it’s “a sin is a sin”–as instantly forgiven through their faith in Christ.
And the whole “works vs faith” thing probably plays in as well.
See, without Jesus, all I see is the object used to publicly execute hundreds of thousands if not millions over a 300 odd year period, including rebel slaves. Maybe that’s just the history major in me talking, but without Jesus the cross is cruel. But, at the same time I do see where the other view is coming from and understands it as a valid point.
That’s fair. It’s really more of a visceral reaction. Basically, if I see a depiction of a weapon/thing used for killing, my reaction to it is more likely to range from averting my eyes to mild excitement (If the thing being depicted is like a sweet ass sword). Meanwhile, if I saw an image of a weapon/thing used for killing in use, my reaction is more likely to range from averting my eyes to “ohgodohgod, no, stop it, ohgod.”
Translation: DO NOT WANT!
Psssht, I’m always proud to be the earliest comment that nobody else replies to. 😛
and no, that’s not passive-aggressive, I legit find it funny. It also makes sense, since I never usually reply to other comments. *shrugs*
*pat pat* There there, Joyce.
Oh yeah the cross/crucifix debate is a thing. While neither my notably-liberal Presbyterian church nor my ambiguously-moderate Catholic high school ever got into the church wars except in jest, there were quite a few arguments in theology about the implication of celebrating the death (which puts the emphasis on Jesus’ atonement for our sins and on the wage of sin) vs the resurrection (which puts the emphasis on Jesus’ conquest of death and on the life everlasting) and how that ties into one’s moral incentives. In practice, most people just pretended they had an opinion one way or another so they could get the participation grade.
Did you guys hear about the paper written and signed by a bunch of religious officials accusing the Pope of perpetrating heresy? Of course, because the Pope is God’s representative on earth, anyone accusing him of heresy is by definition themselves a heretic lol
TECHNICALLY they just called his positions heretical.
…. supposedly that’s an important distinction.
They wanted to call him a heretic while still tip toeing around it lol
These people were already on the Holy See’s shit list long before Pope Francis.
Ha! The fools! Don’t they know that when it comes to dogma, the pope is *literally* infallible?
Unlike Most Holy, he’s only sometimes infallible. Sometimes he speaks with the authority of God. Sometimes, he’s just some pope dude running his mouth. I believe they’re criticizing non-ex cathedra positions of Pope Francis.
These are the same people who have called every pope since Vatican II a heretic. They are referred to as Sedevacantists.
So what you’re telling me is those Grunts from Halo 2s opening went and formed a sect?
They call Vatican II heretical.
For reference, among other things, Vatican II said that other sects of Christianity were still Christians and that the doctrine of Jewish Deicide was not grounds to murderize Jews.
… obviously heretical.
Funny how that bunch considers anything that might fall under “be more like Christ and less of a hateful asshole” as heresy.
(yeah… funny.)
That’s…. actually pretty typical throughout Christianity.
“Uh…. guys? I know we’re hardcore Evangelicals and all, but I was reading the Bible, and Christ was pretty up-front about the not-judging part and the do-unto-others part and the anti-gay passages are kinda on the sidelines and open to interpretation, so-”
“HERESY! CAST HIM OUT! GET BEHIND US, SATAN!”
….
“Okay, so we ELCA Lutherans are considering ordaining priests who are in same-sex marriages.”
“HERESY! SCHISM! WE’LL LEAVE AND FORM OUR OWN DENOMINATION!”
…
Not an every-Christian thing, but maybe an every-denomination thing?
He’s too liberal, what with non-church enulled divorcees being ‘forgiven’ and atheists acknowledged as potentially good people. He was bound to get pushback.
How dare he, like, actually support Christ’s message. That’s crazy radical talk.
Realtalk: best pope ever.
Agreed! I love Pope Francis!
I’m sorry, but this is still a low bar. We have yet to have a Pope who properly addressed and acknowledged the problems with the Church:
1: Obviously, the child molestation scandal. Cardinal Law continues to not be ordered to return to Boston to answer questions. There is still no broad instruction from the Vatican to turn over ALL accusations of child molestation to proper, secular authorities. The Church still has to be dragged, kicking and screaming, every time a new scandal pops up.
2: The Church still operates under the assumption that an abortion is something which must be ‘forgiven’, and that a woman who does not repent (and thus regret) her decision to have one is automatically excommunicated. The Pope’s sole concession on this point was to allow priests to perform absolution for abortion (previously, this was reserved to bishops, some of whom would then pass on the authority to the priests).
3: He continues to support laws that would exclude gays from any benefits offered to heterosexual couples, and opposes efforts to change those laws. This and abortion are two huge areas where the Church continues to attempt to intervene in secular law.
Yes, he’s said some kind things about the poor and the need to shield the environment. That puts him in ‘passable human being’ and ‘not willfully stupid’ categories. He’s not done anything revolutionary to address the core issues that those of us not of the faith object to, so I see no reason to cut him any slack.
This group also called John Paul II a heretic as well.
And John Paul II was himself a pretty conservative fellow as a result of being a native of Poland after WW2 and on the Soviet side of the iron curtain.
There are actually some very conservative Catholics who think the current Pope is not legitimate. They believe that Pius XII was the last legitimate Pope. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sedevacantism
Which is grounds for automatic excommunication.
Oh yeah, the bunch of excommunicates lecturing the pope.
When I was a kid (raised in a liberal Lutheran church, almost literally), the whole notion of excommunication confused me. It sure didn’t sound like any kind of punishment to me.
“What, you’re kicking me out of your church? Cool, I’ll just go across the street and join a better one.”
It’s different when you’re a member of the clergy.
It was different when the Catholic Church was essentially the only Church* and being excommunicated meant being denied the sacraments and thus Salvation.
*(there were always others, but they tended to be geographically separate, so you wouldn’t know about them.)
To put simply Roman Catholicism has its very own brand of fundies.
I did not know about these guys and I am completely unsurprised. Speaking entirely as a would-be author, that’s awesome!
There are SO MANY subsects of Catholicism, you would not believe. You think Protestant fundamentalists are bad, Catholics have been doing it for centuries longer. RCC had to create an Inquisition for a reason, you know.
Popes have been declared heretical by their successors before now. One had the previous one dug uo to try him for heresy. If your institution is 2000 years old, you’ve done a lot of weird shit.
Oh lord don’t remind me of the whole Cadaver Trial fiasco.
But without the death, there is no resurrection, so therefore it should be commemorated as a sacrifice.
Fuck, fundie churches have electric guitars?? That must be how they getcha.
Also I didn’t realize how deep this conditioning ran, I have this compulsion to tell Joyce of course we celebrate his death, that’s the bit that gives us eternal life in heaven, I don’t even know anymore if that’s right but it’s what Little Sunday School Shiro wants to retort.
That was definitely one of the main camps, while an alternative view (popular in many Protestant circles) states that the salient point is Jesus’ resurrection, which represents a conquest over sin and death.
Or you could place the emphasis on, you know, his sermons
Well yeah but then we might have to apply his teachings like feeding the poor and welcoming refugees and that’s just Unthinkable, just go stand over there and be holy in a way that’s acceptable to the religious right, Jesus.
Mind you, there’s something comforting about the idea God took human form to know exactly what sort of shit he was putting mankind through.
…. so that whole omniscience thing didn’t already have that covered? Huh.
Omniscience is poorly defined and not well-balanced, so they nerfed it when they released the Jeshua DLC to Judaism
Oh, the omniscience thing covers it but wouldn’t to understand what being human require you NOT to be omniscient? It’s an interesting question of the kind Jesuits love.
If you want some fun, ask for a list of Bible verses that support omniscience. They’re a set of very weirdly specific examples. Omniscience (and omnipotence… and omnipresence…) are all over-simplified summaries by theologians.
It’s basically the theological equivalent of One Punch Man fans insisting that Saitama has the ability to kill any character from any show in one punch even though it’s explicitly shown that he’s not all-powerful because they can’t imagine worshipping someone who isn’t totally invincible and awesome in every way.
Of course there’s nothing in actual Scriptural canon to substantiate the idea of a trinity or of Jesus being any closer to God than being his literal son BUT STILL
More importantly, the only time Jesus himself is recorded speaking on the subject, ‘Son of God’ can be read as ‘Devout Jew’.
And didn’t bother doing so until 2000 years ago – after at least 4000 years* of watching people stumble around.
*According to the crazier young earth creationist types.
But we can’t actually do what Jesus said, that’d get in the way of teaching what Jesus said!
(No joke, that was pretty close to verbatim what someone said at a strategy meeting I recently went to for the church I attended in my hometown. I am so glad that old white man was in the minority.)
From THE NAME OF THE ROSE:
“We are not here to discuss whether CHRIST was poor, we are here to discuss whether the CHURCH should be poor!”
That’s just crazy talk!
Catholics are required to show up on Easter not Good Friday. Wait that could be just because its a Sunday. Never mind Church is on Sunday because Easter is on Sunday. I mean yea Good Friday is the day that allows us to go to Heaven but most people would feel and the good guy suffers for eternity because everyone else is bad to be a horrible ending.
Oooh so that’s why people get upset about the cross. I always wondered why having Jesus on there or not made such a big difference to people!
As far as I can tell, it’s less about the fine theological points and more about “them folks is different!”
and it’s very important that we define who is Them and who is Us so that we know who’s right (Us) and who isn’t (everyone else).
*plays Eric Clapton’s “Rock-N-Roll Heart” on a car stereo across the parking lot from the Church*
Waits patiently to see if “personal Jesus” by Depeche Mode is in the queue…
I’d go with Presence of the Lord meself, on account of the sweet tender restrained freakout acid gospel solo in the middle of it.
And then there’s “Happy Clappy” by Kit & the Widow
Adds Tom Wait’s “Chocolate Jesus” to the queue.
If you really want to sell the product: The Vatican Rag
My god having a sympathetic character react this way to the religion I grew up in is uncomfortable. I’m not saying it’s bad storytelling or oppressive or anything. It’s just really uncomfortable.
Take comfort in the fact Joyce is being a bigot and extremely dumb.
She’ll get over it and grow as a person.
Unlike someone else who doesn’t where a top before noon.
Joyce comes from an American subculture that has a very strong sense of “us versus them,” strong enough that you could almost call it a core value. And before going to college she hasn’t had much practice dealing with people that her subculture considers “them.” So she’s going to have problems with situations like this.
Hugs. Though I gotta ask did this not seem foreshadowed to you? I have trouble interpreting other peoples intentions
I knew she was gonna be weirded out, I did not know that it was going to be quite so visceral and Jack Chicky.
I’m not even Christian and this is uncomfortable for me.
I’m so uncomfortable for Jacob. How… how do you even handle this? You invite a girl to church, you are a generally nice dude who likes her and has always been aware of her strict religious views, so you, like, don’t WANT her to be uncomfortable, but she’s freaking out and in the process shitting on your church, which is apparently fairly important to you.
…
I… legit have no social script for this one. Becky, please do something, don’t make Jakes figure this one out on his own.
If it helps, she seems even more upset by the lack of electric guitars than by any of the Jack Chicky nonsense.
Surprisingly, not. Excessively amplified music has actually driven me from churches before so the empathy gap only widens.
Seriously, the church in my town that serves donuts and has couches in the sanctuary is unlistenably loud even with the drum cage.
So awhile back I posted some ideas as to why Jacob and Joyce was a bad idea and while I’d like to claim this as proof that Joyces immaturity would be an impediment I can’t really as its it religious intolerance and I didn’t see it coming
I’ll claim a sort of, maybe, kinda, half called it
To be fair at the time we didn’t whether the episcopal church Jacob went was High or Low.
Joyce has a LOT to grow. People ignore that because she isn’t abrasive like Mary. She will get there though
And it’s been what like a month in comic time?
More or less. ‘Today’ is Sunday, October 10th, and the comic started in late August.
It’s religious intolerance born of ignorance. She’s proven she’s capable of moving past that on way bigger sticking points than this before. I’m not saying that to clear the way for Joyce/Jacob, but don’t give up on her yet.
I haven’t given up on her, I just think that at the moment Joyce and Jacob would be a really bad idea for Jacob, couple of years time might be a different story
Hey Joyce, it has “Jesus”, not “a Jesus.”
That phrase bothered me quite a bit.
That had better not be an omen of things come.
Nope. Didn’t you see that one Doctor Who episode with the angels and River Song? “The image of a Jesus becomes itself a Jesus.” The patriarch of Constantinople was right all along!
Neil Gaiman.
Maybe it’s just some guy named Jesus? I know some guys’re named that (it’s usually pronounced “Hey Zeus” when it’s a personal name, by the way).
I get the feeling both Zeus and Jesus would be unhappy with this.
Soos Ramirez died for our sins! And turned into a zombie… and then was resurrected!
I think it was just Dippers’s sin, really.
Yeah. What was the one thing Mabel asked him not to do? Raise the Dead. What did he do? He Raised the Dead.
He ate a man alive 🙁
Not against his will though!
American Gods.
Your own…
personal…
Jesus…
“I don’t care if it rains or freezes,
long as I’ve got my plastic Jesus,
sitting on the dashboard of my car.”
Stare at me while I freeze to death.
This is my favorite story arc so far, entirely because of Joyce’s reactions and the faces she keeps making.
Meanwhile, Becky’s discovered the camera on her cel phone and is saving those faces for posterity.
She’s googling local Orthodox churches for next Sunday.
And a Coptic one for the Sunday after that. Or a Mexican Church for all Saints Day. That would really mess with Joyce.
I don’t know whether exposing Joyce to gospel is a terrible or an awesome idea.
I said earlier that I want to see Joyce in the Blues Brother’s church, James Brown leading the singing in all its 70s glory.
Once I accidentally visited a mosque (I was looking for a history lecture.)
And everyone was polite and no one freaked out.
Joyce, honey, calm down.
Once I accidentally visited a modern art show (Robert Ryman, the “White on White” artist). I spent an hour wandering around going “This is stupid.” Then I got the point and spent two hours going “This is genius.”
…And you, dear reader, get to decide whether that’s on topic or not.
On topic: For even if you end up in a place you disagree with, you can still learn something. You can learn about what the place/experience means to the people involved.
I learned how to celebrate Ramadan in Norway without starving when it happens to fall during one of those months with hardly any night, (you can just break your fast according to nightfall in Mecca,) which was almost as good as the history lecture I was looking for, anyway.
I think there’s a difference between visiting to learn about history or different cultures and going in to participate in what suddenly isn’t what you thought it was.
According to everything Joyce has been taught her whole life she’s now viscerally realizing she’s in the midst of a Satanic cult and her very soul is in danger.
She’s shocked and freaking out. OTOH, she’s Joyce and I have faith in her. She’ll get over it.
Acoustic guitars only???
… some churches don’t even have guitars!
(continued sustained ultrasonic screech sets off all car alarms within three blocks)
She might summon Batman at this rate.
“Someone called? I heard the song of my people and came as fast as I could flap my cape.”
AWOOOOO!! AW, AWOOO! AWOOOOOOO!!
Christian fundies playing any guitars is a horrible mockery. The instruments don’t deserve it.
Yes, no self respecting guitar should be subjected to having Creed played on it.
The patient, Joyce B—-, presented with an acute episode of DSM-V 521.2: High Church Panic Disorder. Upon finding herself within an unfamiliar worship environment, including Christ iconography, robed and collared clergy, and a lack of electric guitars, she exhibited raised voice behaviour, which quickly escalated to sustained screeching behaviour. Responding EMTs gently but firmly ushered her out of the building into a neutral location, dressed her in a casual sweater and jeans, and played early Amy Grant recordings until her panic subsided and her vital signs returned to normal. Medication regimen: not indicated.
^_^
Wait, isn’t Jesus’ death the big, important, redeeming part? The resurrection is just sorta this weird afterthought, narratively speaking.
Evangelicals place a lot more emphasis on the resurrection
Which requires him dying on the cross. Mind you, a lot of this anti-Catholicism is notable for the fact the Catholic Church has seriously changed since the 14th century but they don’t want to acknowledge it–corruption accusations still valid, sadly in the most heinous way.
The corruption predate the 14th century.
Yes, but the Protestants didn’t. Before, they were just heretics.
Well only the ones who didn’t survive long enough to get there own schism.
Requires yes, but that’s incidental – only important because it was necessary for the resurrection.
As opposed to the death being the redeeming part and resurrection being a weird afterthought.
Both traditions acknowledge both, but emphasize different aspects.
I guess the phrase “He died for our sins” never crossed their ears?
Maybe we sinned so hard that God resurrected Jesus as an emergency measure
“Jesus died to save our sins
Glory to God, we’re gonna need him again”
I haven’t met any theologians who take this view. If sin can only be redeemed by a death that isn’t followed by life, that’s more like spiritual nihilism. The essentially Christian element is that what follows atonement is eternal life with God, not death.
As for the comic and Joyce’s stance on crucifixes with Jesus on them, her mistake is that the image of Christ crucified is meant to be a celebration. It is instead a sobering reminder of what it cost to redeem humanity.
You would think the fact that Jesus is always depicted as a almost-corpse would be a hint.
It’s an actual possibility Joyce thinks Catholics worship Satan or are being misled by him.
I never understood what the big deal about the ressurrection was when I was little. I always figured, “He’s the son of God. What did you expect was going to happen?”
Dude’s got connections. Of course he’ll get off lightly.
Reminds me that bit from Saint Young Men when Jesus met some Yakuza guy in Public baths and from one misunderstanding to another the Yakuza started to think that Jesus was a fellow Yakuza. Then Jesus said that he went away but got out after three days which impressed the Yakuza who asked how did Jesus achieve that. Jesus just smiled and said that it was not his doing but the Will of his Father… and Yakuza suddenly got all super respectful and a bit hurt because Jesus was apparently Oyabun’s son and he didn’t tell him that.
Gonna have to get some chill Joyce, this is Serious Mode church right now. XD
“…that only the late< Rich Mullins can hear.”
???
Famous Christian musician.
Y-yeah, I did google that part.
How’s he hearing anything these days???
With his ears, duh
There may be some important aspects of Joyce-style Christian theology that are slipping your mind.
I guess the sound carried all the way to Heaven, or possibly traveled through time, idk
If you’re trying to say that it should be “could hear,” Cephalo, I’d say there’s really no reason to be pedantic about a joke like that. Rich Mullins can’t hear a specific pitch that no-one else can… and he NEVER COULD. Changing the tense doesn’t change the wrongness of the statement.
I was half expecting a female priest, but that would have overshadowed Joyce’s complete freak out about the normal accoutrements of high church Episcopalianism.
they haven’t even gotten to genuflecting or drinking actual wine from a chalice during the Eucharist
Cue the montage.
This is all bringing up experiences of the few times that I went to church services like Joyce’s with friends when I was the Catholic kid.
It’s bringing back memories of early visits to Reform synagogues for me: “Why do you have guitars? Why is there a choir? Why are we singing in English? Did I wander into a church by accident?”
I had the same reactions.
Grew up Catholic in the Bible Belt, and yes, I can relate!
As someone who went to Catholic Church as a child, later became an atheist, and after that visited my friends Assembly of God church for whatever reason, I was very culture shocked by the amount of electric guitars, casualness, and people speaking in tongues and shaking
For me it was having the lyrics to the songs projected on the wall at an Assembly of God church instead of using an actual hymnal.
‘Casualness’ paired with ‘speaking in tongues and shaking’ is weird.
He couldn’t quite explain it, they’d always just gone there.
… It took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out why
a) I recognized that line, and
b) why it was relevant to this discussion.
*facepalm*
MM MM MM MM
MM MM MM MM
At my Pentacostal church, they were very casual things.
Are we doing another crossover with El Goonish Shive? http://www.egscomics.com/?date=2008-05-07
Haha, I was raised Greek Orthodox. Y’all’s churches are crazy. The insides are all painted solid colors and the services are in English and spoken. Everyone knows you have to paint like, every single saint on the walls and the service has to be the priest and three other guys singing in Greek: the language Jesus spoke.
Bah! What do you know? Jesus OBVIOUSLY spoke Early Modern English, just like KJV says.
Some churches are exquisitely decorated it’s just not the norm. See Boroque.
Well, now that you mention it if Jesus spoke any languages besides Aramaic and Hebrew it would have been a dialect of Greek…
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
So that’s the big deal? (Was raised protestant christian, and I know catholic christian is different but never really the difference. All I know is catholics be fancy, reform in england, king wants to bang whoever he pleases, blah blah blah bit.)
That’s one of about fifty big deals.
Nah, the main difference between Catholic and Protestant? Unlike Catholics, Protestants tend to accept things like the Trinity and Communion as holy mysteries without really thinking about them or trying to understand them. Protestants tend to focus on more concrete things like what color cloth should be on the alter, or whether or not the pews should be padded, or, yes, whether or not Jesus should be represented on the cross. (Oh, and while Evangelicals are Protestants, not all Protestants are Evangelical.)
Hm. in my experience, German Lutheran Protestants focus on a very cerebral approach to faith. And the ones I experienced (in the country, not a big city) where focused on living right and not on everlasting life (or even seemed to think much about sin). I always had the impression catholicisms and fundamentalism both are mainly occupied with “how to get to heaven” though their actually answers to this question might differ.
Actually, this comic gave me the first inclination ever that some people actually believe in hell and being cast down by god for their sins ever. I always read the Bible (and I did read it) as a mixture of history and allegorie and the mere thought that anyone takes anything in it as actual unerring truth is totally mind-boggling to me.
Welcome to the world of American Evangelicalism. It exists almost purely to boggle the minds of those who look at it from the outside, and indoctrinate those born inside.
welp, I am still totally thrown off my loop with this storyline. I grew up Catholic and all crucifixes HAD to have a bloody Jesus on them because he died for our sins and you have to see how much he suffered for you. The more blood and the more agonized his expression the better you will understand that he suffered for YOU specifically
(I am not presently religious, just sharing how I understand it)
Some of the Catholic iconography gets pretty creepy. There was this church I used to live near that had this ~10′ tall sculpture of a hand with a nail through it out front. Gross and creepy as hell.
I mean, I know what they’re going for, but from outside, what the hell people?
Perhaps this is a bad time to admit creepy Catholic iconography is the only thing about Catholicism that still appeals to me
Me too. So creepy! So evocative!
The thing to understand is that there have always been Goths. And they used to build (and decorate) cathedrals.
</tongueincheek>
You know what I’m looking forward to?
I’m looking forward to Sarah demanding an after-action report and having no idea at all what Joyce is on about here.
I’m looking forward to have all sorts of idea what Joyce is on about here, and the resulting speculation this sparks about Sarah’s backstory.
*to her having
Anyone want to place bets that Joyce’s other brother is here? Because it’d be interesting if Joyce’s family kicked him out in the same way Becky always feared for Catholicism.
I do remember how my parents were SCANDALIZED when my brother converted to get married.
I think it’s 50/50 whether Jordan joined a denomination too liberal for his parents, or another religion entirely, or joined a denomination that sees the one his parents attend as too liberal.
He keeps talking about this “Bob” guy who saw something in a television he built in the 50s…
That or: “He goes on and on about the Sacred Chao, some woman named Eris, and the Original Snub.”
No painting the East German machine tools in the bathtub blue?
Kallisti!
If you’re(general you) celebrating the idea that he was resurrected then you’re also celebrating that he died to BE resurrected.
He can’t be resurrected until he dies. It’s kinda a packaged deal.
American fundamentalism produced the Prosperity Gospel which is as close to a genuine inversion of Christianity as you can get. Logic doesn’t have to enter the equation.
John Wright is very nearly a Catholic Objectivist, which is also near to a complete inversion…
It’s hard to say who would be more offended, Jesus or Ayn Rand. Jesus had the passion and moral outrage. Ayn had the ego.
Since she was originally a Russian Jew I would imagine Rand wasn’t exactly trusting of strongly devout Christians.
No by her own words she wasn’t.
Ayn hated religion in general and created a secular cult around herself.
See, I’m almost entirely opposed to all of Ayn Rand’s ideas, but as a historical personality? Damn. She’s got style. She just went for it, 100%
Then took state assistance when she needed it. Just like Paul Ryan. No courage behind their convictions, not if money was involved.
Jesus was also more likely to forgive. Rand would be more outraged.
no that’s an oxymoron.
A bit more about the Anglican/Epsicop Church. While HENRY was a devout Catholic (and genuinely an awful person prone to Saddam Hussein levels of frequent homicidal murder–sigh), his ADVISORS were often not. Henry allowed a large number of reforms to happen but drew the line at the Protestant ideal which was, honestly, genuinely crazy. These small reforms and the independence of the Church of England would get a lot of people horribly murdered over the years under both his daughters as well as Parliament.
You have it backwards Saddam Hussein was prone to Henry VIII levels of frequent homicidal murder.
This is true. Unless Kang the Conqueror was involved or Doctor Doom. Then all bets are off.
And Ireland………………There is WAY to much to get into.
The short version if I recall my history is, “The English weren’t fond of the Irish before but their support of their Catholic sovereign caused them to inflict the worst punishment they could think of–importing large numbers of Scots. The rest was inevitable.”
Really broad strokes but yeas.
Well, they were Scots who supported Cromwell. If it had been highlanders the outcome would essentially been two cousins getting shoved in a room and agreeing to try beating up the guy who put them in the room in the first place.
Short version, lots of ire.
Henry VIII and his first wife also did have a son early on in their marriage, but he died as an infant. If said son had survived, well, England and the rest of the British Isles would be a much different place.
Hell, if Henry’s older brother Arthur had survived, England would have been a very different place, if only because there would then have actually been a historical King Arthur.
–Dang, now I want Kate and William’s next boy to be named Arthur. Or, like, George to have been named Arthur instead. Okay, he was probably named for his great-grandfather; but “King Arthur” is more auspicious these days than “King George”…
Arthur and (until Prince Charles) Charles are actually the two names which monarchs aren’t supposed to choose for their sons due to the historical problems with them.
And John?
Edward I named his first son John, but he didn’t make it.
I don’t know if it’s still the case, but for a while at least every male in the royal family had to have ‘Albert’ as one of their names (to honour Victoria’s husband), but none of them were allowed to choose it as their regnal named (Victoria wouldn’t have liked it, because none of them could possibly be worthy of the original).
(sometimes I feel really bad for her. she loved him so much.)
Prince Albert was an awesome guy. No joke.
“King Biscuit” would be even more auspicious, and the church music might end up as a thing that rockeths mightily
Interestingly enough, when I was still attending mass in the late 90s/very early 00s there was a shift in several churches I attended mass at where the bloody anguished jesus-on-a-crucifix was either replaced by jesus triumphantly conquering death, often walking on clouds, or else had resurrected jesus opposite the crucifix (so you could see anguished jesus guilting you when looking at the altar, and post-death jesus as you left).
Religion is so frickin’ weird. Joyce’s church is one of the few I’ve seen that’s more regressive than the one I grew up in… except that at my church, we were taught that musical instruments weren’t allowed to be played during worship. Like, it was almost up there with dancing in terms of shit God said not to do (dancing, it turns out, was invented in the brothels of medieval Europe to entice men to sex, bet you didn’t know that).
Given David danced in the Bible before the Ark of the Covenant naked, I’m continually astounded by the fact very few people seem to actually READ the Bible–and it’s not like the book isn’t a bloody, Game of Thrones-esque mess. It’s just you’d think that’d be on the list!
Some translations have him wearing a leather apron or loincloth which…honestly is kinda creepier than the nude version because then it starts evoking crazy butcher imagery.
I like getting Christians to read the books of Samuel. That’s right, God kicked a king off the throne for NOT committing genocide.
Mind you, Saul killed everyone but the people he was lining his pockets from. It doesn’t change the awfulness but it doesn’t give Saul the moral high ground either.
Then again, context matters as people think Abraham and Isaac was about Abraham having faith in God–not that human sacrifice of your first born child is something God DISAPPROVES OF. It was actually common in the time period.
Uh… Are you being sarcastic there at the end? Or what? Because I’m pretty sure people have been dancing since the first guy that hit a hollow log with a stick rhythmically.
I’m assuming that’s one of her church’s teachings. Maybe also the Earth is only six thousand years old.
AM 5778 as of September 20, 2017.
I once had a friend tell me that Baptists were never an offshoot of Catholicism but actually pre dated Catholics because the first Baptist was John the Baptist. Apparently Baptists also predate Christianity.
There’s a genuine argument that while the Catholic Churches were founded by Paul and Peter (Eastern and Roman), the African Churches include some which may have been founded by the other Apostles (or at least members of the original Jewish Christian sect in Judah) which went downward from Egypt and present-day Libya. Which means they have every right to be the “original” church.
John the Baptist was (like Jesus) Jewish.
I think they were cousins too.
Yeah, second cousins (their respective mothers, Elizabeth and Mary, were first cousins IIRC).
That is probably not true, but it is the thing the Gospels say.
I dunno, as things the Gospels say which might or might not be true, Jesus having a close relative who was a evangelical back to nature preacher who recognized his divinity is one of the least difficult things to believe.
Joyce is truly having a nervous crisis right now, poor thing.
I’m confused, wasn’t the church Joyce attended with Becky and her family more…”traditional” looking too? Lack of guitars and all? >_>
Willis did a thread on his twitter not too long ago explaining how church was for him (and the church Joyce attended with her family is the same church he attended, street adress, interiors, and all).
basically think of it like those political spectrum charts: one axis is “regressive/progressive beliefs,” and the other is traditional/modern trappings.
Churches often use more “hip” “modern” aesthetics to tell themselves they’re cool and relevant and compassionate, masking their actual beliefs which can still be really heinous and bigoted.
I want to call everyone’s attention to Panel 5. Willis must have put a lot of work into, even though the comic payoff is not in the visual part of it.
Looking at Google Street View, it’s pretty clear that the church in the comic is, within the style of the comic, a very accurate representation of the actual Trinity Episcopal Church in Bloomington. But — there’s no Google Satellite view of it from this perspective. There’s no office building kitty-corner from the church that you could get a reference photo from.
This is an artist with a well-developed awareness of his craft looking at ground-level pictures, and using his knowledge of perspective and his artistic intuition to figure out what the church must look like from a viewpoint that no one has ever actually seen it from.
I’m sure we all agree that Willis has become a master of facial expressions and character exposition. But once in a while we should take a moment to appreciate marvelous use of backgrounds.
Nonsense. He used a drone with a Go-Pro to take a picture and worked from that.
I’m sorry, but the idea that the cross not having Jesus on it means you’re celebrating his resurrection and not his death makes no real sense. The cross is still where he died, taking him off the thing isn’t going to change that.
Yes, it’s nonsense to bad mouth Catholics like calling them cannibals and Satanists and idolators.
And the whole point of the thing was that he DIED for our sins, not came back to life a few days later for our sins.
You know, that Hundred Years War just didn’t last long enough.
That was just England and France being pissy about Eleanor of Aquitaine’s holdings. Nothing to do with religion.
Try Thirty Years War.
Yeah, that was awful with three sides of awful.
Yeah, I get the idea of traditional, but it can honestly get boring going to a traditional service, especially having done so for my Grandma’s sake for a decade or so.
Contemporary, high school ministry led, or bust yo.
In the words of Dorothy: “Joyce, this is no longer endearing.”
Jacob is thinking, “And now I have this crazy fundamentalist woman mocking my beliefs in a place of worship.”
Well Joyce is only human so she was going to have to be very rude at some point.
Yeah, I have weird feelings about this, and I think drs has their finger on it.
Joyce is an incredibly sympathetic character, because her ignorance is her biggest flaw and it truly isn’t her own fault. She was incredibly sheltered / indoctrinated, and she’s already taken great steps towards thinking for herself and standing up for her own newfound beliefs.
— Despite her initial shock at Dorothy’s atheism, she stood up to her parents and defended her friendship with her early on.
— Despite her initial homophobic indoctrination, she looked for more information and found Christians who validated same-sex love, then went into (perhaps over-zealous) support of all LGBT relationships in her dorm
–Despite her shock at polyamorous dorm-mates, she seems to be okay with them now
–Despite her initial fearful reaction towards secular television (iirc?) she quickly befriends Walky and enjoys his cartoon
So it’s like, in how many variations is she going to have to learn this lesson? The lesson where something she was taught was evil and ought to be avoided at all costs is, in fact, good, or at least good for some people.
I suspect that, in real life, this actually is a lesson that has to be repeated in wide variance when someone is so sheltered, which actually makes this comic pretty realistic. But, the more realistic it is, the less funny it is. Instead it gets more sad. More awkward. And, in some cases, more offensive, because there is a greater sense that she ought to know better.
So, I think that’s why this strip feels so odd to me.
I think her reaction is possibly being amplified by the fact she thought she could handle this – “I’m going to a different church! With my gay BFF! In something more form-fitting than a sweater vest!” – and the stuff she’s freaking out about is stuff she would never have dreamed she needed to prepare for, or was this deeply ingrained as “wrong” for her.
We have seen this kind of reaction to Catholicism before.
January 23, 2012.
Correction: January 26, 2012
the thing I’ve noticed through all these storylines is that she’s adjusting her moral compass on specific issues, but still trying to keep it reconciled with her faith. When she tells off her parents, it’s not “screw the Bible, I know this is wrong,” it’s “Jesus is my ethical guide, not YOU.” And she’s still sticking to her guns regarding a lot of bits and pieces that don’t seem (to her) connected to the issues she’s had a radical change on. Like evolution and the age of the earth, for example.
I find this incredibly relatable. I grew up with Joyce’s nearly exact background. I also experienced this slow slide into compassionate heresy when I got to College. The house of cards doesn’t fall down all at once. It happens in fits and spurts, with the parts that seem more salvageable possibly hanging on for a loooong time. If anything, Joyce is progressing much more quickly than I did. It’s still Fall term of her first year.
While I can empathize with her culture shock because I became Catholic a few years ago and then visited a protestant church and was SO confused… I’m also really uncomfortable with how she’s acting.
Great writing and expressions as always.
May I ask what about Catholicism appealed to you?
Not trying to diss you or anything, I’m genuinely curious.
For me, it was the lack of anti-intellectualism and the lack of focus on salvation by faith alone. The fact it had focus on investigating miracles and such a broad history of studying ideas of faith as well as updating it made it seem like the way a church should be run. I was very naive about other parts.
Well, I will give a bit of quick background:
I grew up Wiccan, at first to get back at my father and then because I loved taking care of the environment and it seemed to be the right path, but I felt very disconnected from other people (now had I branched out, I may have found a great group, but that’s not what happened) and started searching through the different religions for something that would connect me to other people.
I had absolutely no idea who Jesus was, no idea about the Bible, the only story I knew was Noah’s ark, etc.
I had a conversion dream one day where God came and told me to come home and so I started looking into what that could mean.
I started working at a Catholic school and found an immediate sense of love and belonging, and so I reached out to a church next to my house which thankfully is an Oblate Catholic Parish (Oblate being the order and the order is very pro-women, pro-helping the poor, very accepting and loving, and not about spending all the money on ridiculous things, but putting it to where it’s needed).
So I took the journey and really loved it, and now I work at that church and I work with Youth and Young adults.
I’m actually working with someone at another church right now to bring about an LGBTQ2+ group in our city which is so far being met with open arms.
So my experience is much different than the gross and shameful experiences some people have to put up with. It breaks my heart that some Catholics don’t act as Jesus showed them how to.
Sorry, that was really long lol. Thanks for asking, though!
I guess I answered more how I became Catholic than what interested/appealed to me…
I’d say now the things that appeal to me are:
-I can go to any Catholic church in any country and know what readings they’ll be saying, the order of the mass, and basically what’s going on (with some exceptions). I went to Notre Dame when I was in France and several masses in Poland, and felt very comfortable because I knew what was going on.
I also feel drawn to the traditional vestments (clothes), the crucifix (interestingly enough, our church has a crucifix with the corpus (body) rising to heaven so we call it the resurrected Jesus even though he’s still on the cross), adoration (where we kneel and pray in song or silence to Jesus), and the belief that we are actually having Jesus present in body and blood every mass, not just symbolizing him.
I also really find a lot of the symbols and prayers beautiful.
You probably won’t see this, but thank you anyway for this comprehensive answer.
It’s a confirmation of an impression I’ve had for some time now: while people can claim to belong to one religion or other, the underlying culture plays a huge role in how that religion is interpreted.
No problem! Thank you for asking 🙂
Man, and the first time I went to church with a friend, I was just weirded out by the idea of it alone. I can’t even fathom being weirded out by a different branch on the same tree.
Jo Walton’s _The King’s Peace_ is alternate-universe Arthuriana, in which the incarnation of the White God was stoned to death instead of crucified.
So his followers wore pebbles.
As a (former) Catholic, I would have really welcomed the latitude to branch away from organ music or peppy acoustic guitar/piano riffs that steal blatantly from “Take Five”.
My dad’s group once played a bluegrass mass and there was practically rioting in the pews.
I wonder if Joyce will hit the books on this and discover such oddball facts as Catholicism’s relationship to Peter, scholarship, and views on salvation by deeds as well as faith.
Maybe she’ll also find out Jesus had brothers and sisters.
Hey, the fundamentalist cult I was raised in acknowledged that Jesus had (“half-“)siblings, even pointing out that one of the books of the Bible (Jude, I think?) was supposed to be written by one of said brothers.
Because my upbringing was weird like that.
And Roman Catholic doctrine holds that Jesus had no siblings, that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life.
Orthodox doctrine traditionally holds that Jesus’s siblings were Joseph’s children by a first wife. Don’t know when the Catholic church decided they should be cousins instead.
Same line of thinking that prevented DC from simply saying Robin was Batman’s son 40 years ago, or why Superboy isn’t Superman’s son – conservative thought kinda skitters away from the idea of anyone they idolize having messy, sticky, procreative sex.
Kinda like kids thinking of their parents having sex – EW!
I forget which comedian it was who said, some years ago, that when Jesus does come back he’s gonna look around at the symbol everyone’s chosen for “his” faith and be triggered as fuck. Screaming PTSD, anyone?
LOL!
Given that this is the guy who had people poke at his wounds just to prove it was him, I don’t think he’s gonna have any problem with being reminded of what happened.
He was pretty hardcore when you think about it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA
On the one hand, the Episcopal Church is absolutely the closest mainline protestant denomination to Catholicism in terms of ceremony. On the other, Joyce would probably still be freaking out at the level of ceremony in basically any other mainline protestant church, just maybe not quite as much.
I can’t speak to Episcopalians, but as a Catholic, the music now is all over the place, but nothing beats a really good choir and the Latin mass, if you’re looking for nothing more than a profound listening experience.
As one raised Episcopal, I agree with the music. The service is mostly in English, though parts of it are in Latin and I THINK that full Latin services are a thing some churches do sometimes. (Kindly don’t ask what translation the churches use. There are so many, and a new schism popped up every time someone tried to update the text. The one in the early 1980’s started what looks to be the slow end of the church I was raised in when the congregation of a too-small town split.)
As an atheist, this is probably 75% of the reason I prefer the old churches over the new ones. (Catholic, Episcopal, Orthodox…give me good vocal or instrumental music and I’m happy to listen to the rest of the blethers in between.)
How about some Gospel music?
Most of the mass is vague enough to be innocuous, though I’ll roll my eyes occasionally at things in the homily, but even as a Catholic, I go mostly for the music. The church I go to with my family has a really great choir and a big organ built right into the structure of the church, which has great acoustics. It’s great to listen to.
But I’ve never enjoyed a mass more than a Latin mass with a nationally renowned choir. They’re involved constantly, so it’s like a free concert, and a really good one. I didn’t know what was going on, because I speak exactly no Latin, but it was still immersive.
Learning a lot from this. I grew up Catholic in an area where there were quite a few Catholics or if not no one really discussed religion. I have a friend who is Jewish, another who is Muslim and never was I made to feel uncomfortable.
Only once did I ever meet someone with decidedly Anti-Catholic views, which at the time puzzled me. Since then I’ve learned that there are places where I might be made uncomfortable if the locals learned I was Catholic. This discussion is helping me understand this even more.
well, I thought that after all she been through she´d be more tolerant, especially of a related faith.
I was enjoying her stupid freak out but I think her character hasn’t grown as much as I thought
“especially of a related faith”
I don’t think she believes that.
Give her time this stuff dug its roots in deep.
Remember way back when she first went to church here. She did not react favourably to other branches of Christianity – it is like you are either a true Christian or not a true Christian or a mega not a true Christian (Catholics in Joyce’s mind).
Joyce has grown more tolerant of certain groups of people (LGBT+) but not others (other branches in her religion).
I once wound up in a Catholic hospital during pretty scary sudden medical emergency, and while it was fine enough treatment-wise, I could not get over the fact that there was a crucifix over every door. EVERY DOOR. Visible from the bed!
Like, man, use the symbols you gotta use, you do you, but, uh, does it have to be a man slowly bleeding to death? Just feels a little, uh, unnerving when I’m also bleeding.
He didn’t bleed to death. He died when they broke his legs, which made him suffocate.
My son and daughter went to Catholic schools where every classroom had a dying Jesus hanging over the door watching you take your tests.
They even had one in the gym, watching all the basketball games.
Noted, duly noted, leg-breaking made Jesus suffocate, that’s all filed away in my brain now. Definitely. Definitely wanted that mental image.
(Haha, I’m just kidding around. The whole thing *does* make me a bit squeamish, but I get all toe-curly at even third-rate horror movies, so, I’m kind of a wimp).
What has breaking his legs to do with anything? I thought suffocation was just the ‘natural’ way of dying when crucified?
Crucifixion could cause a whole host of things that would kill you.
For suffocation, if the victim was bound with his feet supported, as Jesus was supposed to be, they’d hold themselves up until they were exhausted (which was the point, it made the execution longer and more unpleasant). Breaking their legs was ironically a mercy, as it prevented that, and ended things a lot faster – although it was also pretty violent, and probably helped with the whole ‘scaring the onlookers’ part.
Actually, according to some Christian legend, Jesus died of a spear thrust into his side. Others say they were going to break his legs, but noticed that he wasn’t breathing, and stabbed him to make sure. There are a lot of differing legends about this.
At least according to the biblical story, Jesus didn’t die from leg-breaking; he died before then, “in fulfillment of prophecy that not a bone of his would be broken” or somesuch.
Also, Onyx, the breaking-legs-thing is supposed to “speed up” the suffocation process – if your leg-bones are intact, they support your own body weight and thus prolong the death process.
Yeah, that’s what I thought. I think it was Guru’s wording that gave me a mental hiccup. The way I read it was that the breaking directly caused the suffocation.
Think of it as a prayer amplifier.
Dude, your comment literally made me laugh out loud.
That’s quite the descriptive sound effect in that last panel there…
Who the fuck is Rich Mullins?
Google is your friend … although I don’t get the reference to the ultra-high frequency.
‘Priesty collar things’? Joyce, you wear sweater vests.
Ah’m sorry, but I’m gonna have to drop off until this arc is over. I’ve had too many friends who behave EXACTLY like Joyce.
This’ painful for me.
See on the other side and Godspeed.
It’s ok. And I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had to deal with that personal experience. See you again in the comments after this arc?
See ya when the arc is over. Sorry you’ve had to deal with that crap.
What’s wrong with —
I don’t think —
I do have one question. Why didn’t Joyce Google Episcopalian before going? Seems like the smart thing for her to do if she had any reservations.
They’re Protestant, therefor they couldn’t possible have all these Papist heresies. Why would she google it when she already knew by definition?
No no Joyce, you’ve got it all wrong! The cross reminds us how the J-man died for our sins! After all, because of Adam and Eve (mostly Eve tho) we are all born in sin except someone told me that in the original bible the word sin is first mentioned when Kain kills Abel but that’s humanity for you *joins Joyce in screeching*
what’s wrong with robes, Joyce? many jobs have special outfits to wear at work. I feel sorry for Jacob here, hearing that all the things in his church are strange and wrong.
but that last panel really makes me laugh.
Wait
I thought Protestants avoided crucifixes because of the “no graven images, and especially no bowing to them” commandment, and that that’s also why Catholics don’t teach that commandment?
I figured crucifixes being kinda grim was a minor concern compared to, y’know, idolatry
Context: raised Catholic, only found out the Protestant Ten Commandments were different after de converting to atheism
In my experience, crucifixes are ok as artistic artefacts but definitely not as objects of worship. Maybe the fact that Jesus himself isn’t typically on the Protestant crucifix makes it not a graven image?
A representation of Jesus is the definition of religious idol. This is also why Protestant churches don’t have pictures of God/Jesus/the saints in stained glass. No images was one of the core principles of Luther’s reform afaik, didn’t know American fundies had invented their own rationale for a Christ-free cross.
In Catholic theology, a crucifix is not idolatry but is instead iconography. Iconography is different from Idolatry in that it is not the object itself but the story it represents that one uses as means for the focusing of prayers and meditating on spiritual mysteries of faith. Having a cross instead of a crucifix is still using an icon, just a less elaborate icon. Of course, some people have different dividing lines between the two. And that’s where the Protestant vs Catholic debate tends to get heated. Catholics are generally much broader in what is or can be considered a religious icon, where Protestants are much stricter.
That is totally part of one of the Commandments as listed by the Catholic Church. The first, in fact. It’s not broken off into a separate commandment like some Protestants do, because that whole section is all about the same thing.
And, frankly, the ‘I am a jealous god’ explanation He gives doesn’t really leave a lot of room for an ‘and I include Myself in that, once I incarnate among you’ interpretation.
Per above, this agnostic figures it something like this:
Some (most?) people are really into icons, idols, etc etc.
People who identify as religious are more likely to fall within this set (IMO).
People are really good at making up justifications/reasons/excuses for why the things they want are okay.
Most of the attempts to ban icons, or a certain kind of icon, are (IIRC) based on trying to establish tribal/brand identity – those other people do this, but we’re different (and their way is wrong), so we don’t.
This, however, runs afoul of all the same problems as any other attempt at prohibition of things that people really like.
Does fundie culture inculcate you with terrible taste in music, or is terrible taste in music one of the core common beliefs (along with prosperity gospel, anti-choice, anti-Darwinism) of fundie culture? Headcanon says people with a propensity for loud and cheesy guitar decided to make it legit by adding Jesus. (Also, speaking for my ears alone, give me a Latin choir and the Benedictus any day.)
As a person who was raised Protestant in a majority Roman Catholic country outside of the USA (and attended Catholic schools):
1) I heard from some Catholic profs and teachers I had that removing the Christ image from the cross dilutes the message of the cross, essentially making it more “generic” as a symbol rather than a specifically Christian one. This philosophy about celebrating death rather than the resurrection is new!
2) Growing up my experience of Protestant Christianity was that it was much more liberal not only in ceremonial form (yes, our church had electric guitars) but in dogma, and Catholicism was deeply conservative, also both in form and dogma. It’s very interesting to see trends here in the comment section and in the comic itself (considering that the Episcopalian Church is a “hippie church,” but very Catholic in form) show the reverse. I actually expected Joyce’s church to resemble a Catholic one and Jacob’s to be a jeans-and-t-shirt/gymnasium one.
Cross being meaningful is actually quite important in Catholicism. The whole “Guilt and repentance” and “Carrying your own cross” like Christ did. Basically we have to carry our own crosses through our lives to earn the place in Heaven and all that.
American Protestants seem to be all about “We go to Heaven because we are the One True Christians and the rest are heretics who will go to Hell.”
Calling either Catholicism or Protestantism in general ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’ doesn’t really fit.
Certain Protestant denominations, or specific churches/diocese within various denominations, certainly, but not those two categories as a whole.
I was talking about my own experiences with and in both groups, not making a generalization that applies in all cases. I understand that “Protestants” can cover a lot of denominations, but I only recall Christians in my country outside of some very specific local sects calling themselves “Protestant” rather than referring to specific denominations.
I’m not a big religious guy. My Immediate family, that is my dad and mum (Sister doesn’t count for this example, she gets to go through the same thing as I did) were really…off. My mum is a spiritual woman, has her own beliefs about the spirits of the ancestors and the elements, cherry picked from several religions around the world. My old man is an atheist, mostly as a reaction against HIS immediate family, who are deeply devout Christians (I’m not sure denomination, I think they are some kind of evangelics but believe in Mary And Saints and I dunno what the shit). They are the ones I got most of my “religious” education from, and while they are very evangelic, what I got was a very basic “God, Jesus and Mary are the important ones, there’s some saints around”. My maternal grandparents arenon.church catholics. Which means they pray at night before sleeping, they praise god, but can’t be arsed to go to church.
Ultimately, what my paternal family tried to teach me never really took. I was deeply Atheist for most of high school, which was kinda a big trouble with the school’s headmaster because the school was a catholic school (School system in my country is different than america, too long to explain, let’s just say that non-private schools in my country do not give a good education). As I’ve aged, I’ve learned to mostly ignore the different churches and cherry pick my beliefs, like my mother has.
OF course, this means, where I to live in america, I’d be promptly rejected by many religious people for not following a certain dogma. Most likely, based on what I’ve seen so far, I’d likely be told I’m not a real “Insert-religion-here”, and they’d likely be right! For example, I can identify with Catholics and their belief of helping the needy. Yet I am not a part of that organization, and just take that belief for my own.
There are many things to which Joyce can adapt. A lack of rock music in her worship is not one of them.
No… no electric guitars?
You are Waaaay off Joyce. Catholics kinda celebrate both his sacrifice at the cross and his resurrection, it’s kind of a package deal, you can’t really have one without the other.
Heh this reminds, there is this series of Polish novels “I, Inquisitor” about an alternate reality world where Christ got pissed off, stepped off from the Cross and slaughtered half the Jerusalem. Christianity in that world is Much nastier, and on purpose too.
Nastier than in this reality? Color me impressed.
To start with they threw all the “Be nice to each other” out the window. And Angels are absolutely Terrifying… they also want to capture and torture the protagonist for eternity because they think that God became him to understand Humanity and abandoned the Angels. They want to torture the protagonist so that when God reverts back he can understand the pain he caused the Angels.
It’s a messed up world.
what the jesus fuck
It’s a very very bizarre world. And I didn’t even get to the part where some mystical Christian monks have Jesus in their basement and keep him from dying by dripping angel blood on him, from cutting up living fallen angels chained to the ceiling.
So I guess the answer to Jess’s question of whether anyone fucks Jesus is a “no”, then. Being covered in fallen angel blood is probably a pretty big turn-off for most people.
Eh, he keeps absorbing it and the effect quickly wears off so it’s probably the light shower of angel blood that would put people off. Then again some people would be probably into that.
Rule 34, King Daniel. Rule 34.
Have these been translated into English? I tried to Google, but all that’s coming up is Dragon Age. (Which offers its own theological debates, but they’re not particularly relevant to this discussion.)
Okay, filthy agnostic here, but what’s wrong with celebrating the bloody sacrifice? Like, isn’t the whole point that Jesus let himself get tortured and killed in order to save the… souls of humanity or something…
…like I said, agnostic, but the point is, it’s a sacrifice. The pain and suffering and, oh yeah, death are things to be honored, not because Jesus got off on torture (sorry god, if you’re there, maybe a bit over the line), but because it was something he was doing for the sake of others.
If anything, the resurrection is the weaker part of it, because it lessens the tragedy of the sacrifice…
I dunno, it’s all Roman to me…
The point is that Yes, Jesus was tortured and died on the cross to atone for our Sins. But then he beat the snot out of Satan or whatever and returned from the dead. Kicking the Door to Heaven open for us so we can all return to life and go to Heaven just like he did. There is a line in one prayer I think which literally says that he Beat Death for us.
Well, quite a few Christians think the “death” part was unnecessary if not for the fact humans were assholes. There’s a serious flavor to Christianity that thinks God dying for our sins was necessary while others just point out it reflects awfully on us and Jesus coming back was just showing God was around that.
If God’s Grace is freely given, why is the Atonement necessary? Because we are bloody stupid dumbasses and that’s what we can understand.
I am from a sect of Christianity that was as evangelical and literalist as Joyce’s, but the particular flavor of Evangelicality I came out of hated electric guitars and amps.
Oh god, does that mean she grew up with… PRAISE MUSIC? The dread. The terror. At least I got decent hymns.
… “I danced in the morning when the world was begun~”
Screaming to literally wake the dead, apparently.
I’m Catholic and some of the masses I’ve been in have had electric guitars and drums and the whole shebang.
Well, this isn’t technically a Catholic church – Jacob’s Episcopalian. 😛
An almost ridiculously High Church Episcopalian church.
When I was still vaguely Anglican the church I attended was rather Low Church and occasionally broke out the electric guitars.
My mother was rather high church and rather dissatisfied with this, so she went to the local catholic church on a couple of occasions, in search of smells & bells. The only problem was that that church was even more relaxed and into the drums & guitar than our church, so she swore off in disgust. Me & my siblings found this all hilarious.
Ridiculously High Church? So far it seems pretty par for the course.
Well, I can’t talk for Episcopalian churches, but the Anglican churches in Africa & the UK we attended when I a child and teen were largely so Low Church they were almost Methodist. A source of annoyance to my mother, as she was rather High Church. But the CoE did a history of exiling reformers to Africa.
I’m with Joyce here. What is the point of any church if they don’t have electric guitars?
Agreed.
….. though I have the same question if they DO have electric guitars.
Hee!
…and here I am, an Orthodox-raised girl, and for most of my life my impression of why our crosses didn’t have Jesus sounded as such: “how else would people know we’re not Catholic?”
(this is also the explanation for why wearing crosses on your neck is a near-mandatory thing: like, technically you don’t have to, but it just means you’re hiding that you’re Christian)
maybe I got that impression from history lessons, coz my country was kind of historically squeezed between Muslims to the south, Catholics to the west, and… well, other Orthodox peoples to the west, but we only actually invited Russians to come and help us in the 17th century, and even then it only took for half the country, up until the mess at the start of the 20th century, whereupon everyone got forcibly converted to atheism and wearing a cross was basically a martyrdom dealie.
I guess the cross with Jesus on it also looks kinda morbid and overly-fancy to me, but given how pretty Orthodox crosses are made, it’s rather obviously just what I’m used to.
Legends say that every dog within a 15-mile radius of that church ran inside on that day, fearing for their lives from something no-one else could see or hear. Locals referred to this phenomenon as “The Great Spookening”.
AWOOO!! AW AW AWOOOOOO!!
[[CATHOLIC MEMORY-ING INTENSIFIES]]
Hands up anyone else who thinks that Joyce is going to be breathing into a paper bag for a while here?
Religion, you so silly.
…aye, I have never been so happy to be agnostic.
Joyce has yet to talk properly to Asma, or meet Nash. Her reactions to the Sunni aspects of Islam will be … interesting. Presumably there will be a Shi’ite character for balance?
I am slightly disappointed that Willis hasn’t gotten an Iroquois character involved – that really would be a life-changer for Joyce.
“Wait, you have no god? At all?”
Raidah, maybe. Hard to tell at this point IIRC if she’s more likely to be Sunni or Shia.
Things like this make me realize how different church was where I grew up compared to the rest of the world. Church was something we only went to during Christmas, Easter, weddings, baptisms and funerals. Not that people weren’t Christians, but they didn’t typically feel closer to God inside a huge building as much as they did just being outside surrounded by nature. I think the only ones who went to church every sunday was the priest and her husband. And also the host of the local radio station in the basement, who happened to be a Leninist atheist.
Plenty of Americans who call themselves Christians are “holiday Christians” as well. They only show up for holiday services, marriages and funerals.
Please, somebody show Joyce the Saint Oniisan manga (http://m.mangafox.me/manga/saint_oniisan/).
I liked the Halloween chapter. Jesus and Buddha dressed as vampires, Saint Michael as Satan; Jesus is concerned his dad will be angry because Halloween is a pagan thing, but then the Holy Spirit joins them, disguised as a raven…
Also, they hang with Lucifer, who is shown to be an adult man forever stuck in the rebellious teen stage (no wonder they kicked him out of Heaven). He mostly plays soccer now…
I think she’d faint while frothing at the mouth at so much heresy…
So…
Joyce…
How’s the seduction of Jacob going…?
Quiet, Joe. She’s busy having a panic attack.
Didn’t seem to last too long…. 🙂
Having a cross with Jesus on it keeps people from asking you what does the “t” stand for.
It’s for Tony Wonder
Even better, in some denominations the cross is actually shaped like a T instead of the, uh…lower-case t depicted here? 😛
Rich Mullins wrote my favourite song.
Joyce from panel 2 to 3: Mighty impressive whipsawing expressions on her face there.
I was raised Catholic and I am learning that I missed out on A LOT. Protestants have electric guitars and dancing at church??? At least we had snack time.
I was also raised Catholic, and my idea of “devout” was “someone who went to Mass every day, happily” v. the “drag me there as a kid once a week”.
There was an organ. That’s it. I still like organ music and pipe organs to this day. Electric guitars and church were something I didn’t even think to think of. I’m old enough to have been well into adulthood when “Christian rock” started to be a thing.
Joyce is the most appealing realistic-ish fictional devout character I’ve read in ever. The fact that her trigger is no electric guitars? is about the funniest thing I ever heard.
Electric guitars *was* how she picked her first church in comic.
One of my most vivid memories of my Catholic upbringing is realizing how my perfect pitch worked when I got bugged that a hymn we usually did had changed from minor key to major. Music and choir is a huge part of why church and religion were worth something to me.
Of course you missed out on a lot. You were taken to church on Sundays when your parents could’ve taken you to a comic book store.
(Not that we went to a comic book store every Sunday, but it certainly wasn’t uncommon.)
Some do. Other Protestant sects would find the idea of “rock and roll” instruments and anything approaching dancing in their services disturbing.
Are there some sects that don’t like singing? I know of a coupe who don’t like musical instruments.
It gets very close to the Taliban in some respects.
She’s gonna be making LOTS of friends here
What’s she gonna use to make these ‘friends,’ cardboard and dreams?
You can do this, Joyce. Suspend judgment for a while. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/unobjectionable-2/
…and I’m sure Marie Antoinette would be totally cool with having her symbol be a guillotine. Just so long as you don’t actually show her decapitated corpse. Because THAT would be tacky. 😑
Whoa, Joyce! Stop being a dick in other people’s church, will you?
I didn’t expect it would come to this, yet here we are. o.O
She’s spent too many years reading Chick Tracts and generally being misled by other sources not to have a lot of residual mental damage.
Knowing she is a good, kind person despite all her faults is what keeps me from disliking her, some days. At least there’s little chance she’ll be as weak as she was in the “It’s Walky!” continuity.
Sounds like a ship crashing to me. This might be a dealbreaker for them.
This seems like a fairly accurate representation of an Episcopalian church except for the whole “crucifix with a Jesus on it” thing. I was raised Episcopalian, I have seen quite a few Episcopal churches, and NONE of them had a Jesus on the wall. I have always associated the crosses with dead Jesus on them with specifically Catholic churches, and I always found them mildly unsettling at least partly because I was NOT used to it. Also, dead guy.
Jesus-on-the-cross is not necessarily dead, but dying. The whole point of crucifixes is to point out the fact that Jesus suffered. Crucifixes can be off-putting, yes. You should see some of the hyper-realistic Medieval crucifixes that were made in Europe. Mel Gibson’s got nothing on them, I swear.
Ah good point. If I remember right he only died after… Longinus was his name I think, stabbed him in the heart with a spear and almost after that he got taken off to be buried.
Kevin Smith was making fun of the “Buddy Christ” in Dogma to say he thought it was a serious misstep to remove the crucifix. A lot of people apparently said they preferred it to the image of him dying.
I have to admit, I prefer to think of the (apparently) cool dude he was while he was alive, and the things he tried to teach, rather than the “tortured to death” part, heroic sacrifice or not. It seems to sort of elevate the latter above the former, almost to the point of saying only the second part mattered.
“Who cares about his life or sermons? What matters is how (and that) he died!”
I can understand you although what Jesus taught is so widely talked about that I don’t really think that his death overshadowing his teachings is really an issue. Or at least it isn’t where I came from. It’s just… we thank him for his suffering and sacrifice while learning his teachings and attempting to follow them. They are kinda sorta two important but separate things.
At least according to the biblical story, Jesus was already dead then – Longinus’s stabbing was because the guys in charge of the execution didn’t believe he had died so quickly (crucifixion being a very drawn-out method of execution), and they wanted to make sure he was dead before they took him down.
Years and years of having every minute detail of this story drilled into you will make you recall stuff like that, I guess. 😛
Theroux in the Patagonian Express comments that the depictions of christ suffering on the cross intensifies the poorer the catholic country.
Oh no, not a Jesus!
This is surprisingly very Catholic in appearance. Forgive my ignorance, being mostly Baptist raised yet Catholic taught, but I did NOT see that coming.
From what I read in the comments this denomination is apparently an offshoot of Anglicanism which in turn kept a lot of Catholic rituals and appearances.
Episcopal churches are very liturgical/high church compared to most Protestant denominations but also not as conservative as some evangelical churches if I remember correctly from my church history class. It’s like… about as close to Catholic as you can get without actually being catholic.
Well there’s the next book title.
Panel 1 or Panel 4? XD
Panel 5 I meant to say. Sorry for double posting >~<
A lot of this has me in Jacob’s shoes because Joyce is basically freaking out about a lot of bog-standard normal stuff in Anglicanism, the boring normal church the Queen’s in. Cultural divides!
It’s worth stressing though, that Joyce was raised fundamentalist; so her idea of what a “proper” church looks like
What confused me is the shimmying and the electric guitars, since in Scotland, fundamentalists would be horrified by both those things. You don’t go to church to enjoy yourself.
so her idea of what a “proper” church looks like
…may not be mainstream American Protestantism, is what I meant to say there.
And some American fundamentalist churches are like that as well. They’d consider a lot of what goes on in the churches Joyce is familiar with very wrong.
I’m guessing that this is a ship sunk, then.
Nononono. This is JOYCE. She’s either going to grow a new tolerance skillset, or make it her mission to save Jacob.
I think she’s moved past that phase of trying to spiritually save people.
I find Rich Mullins a fascinating selection for the punchline.
He was born in Indiana and died just up the road from Bloomington. Joyce and other Hoosier evangelicals would love his songs and claim him, but He also questioned the differences between the christian faiths, much like Joyce is now undergoing.
The comic and the comment section are equally great today.
That is all. XD
“I’m sorry, but I can’t be part of any religion where Jesus doesn’t get to rip out a few tasty licks for his fans.”
Joyce is not very good at change…
She is pretty good at it, given time and a bit of support. It’s just that the world keeps slum-dunking her all the time and she has a LOT of stuff to unlearn.
I would associate electric guitars with a modern laidback hippie liberal church, not one that is all about bigotry and biblical literalism. That warrants a huge, honking pipe organ and nothing else, because modern instruments (not to mention music you can tap your fingers to) are tools of the devil.
America, you’ve got your different kinds of christianity all backwards. 😛
My hometown church has electric guitars AND a huge honking pipe organ, what does that make us?
I can understand where you’re coming from. But the church that had my brother’s attention 20 years ago was that sort of thing: energetic, passionate, and the first time I heard about the “literal Firmament that caused higher air pressure which allowed dinosaurs to fly and people to have extended lifespans.”
They also insisted, apparently, that the phrase “Good Luck” was evil, and secretly meant, “May Lucifer be good to you.”
First you get down on your knees
Fiddle with your rosaries
Bow your head in deep respect
And genuflect…genuflect…genuflect….
Joyce, sweetie, you’re not 10, you are a young adult going to college, no religious upbringing justifies your current behavior, you are an adult, you do not SCREAM IN CHURCH.
I left the Petancostal faith YEARS ago, it was sheltered as heck, everything was a sin, we stayed in our tight little communities and the rest of the world were filthy sinners.
And then my Grandma took me to her mormon church…
I did not start to scream, and I was like 7/8 at the time, and knew that this was the “wrong religion” (yay pentacostals -_-) but just focused on behaving myself.
Geezus Joyce, our backgrounds are so similar, and yet this reaction is like a child seeing a spider, not a grown woman who’s already used to confronting new ideas, confronting a new idea 🙁
(The faces are pure gold tho, and I’m not criticizing your writing Willis, I love it, she’s just too real for me atm XD)
Almost seems less like religious intolerance and more like not getting what she wants “what do you mean theres no electric guitars, waah”
IKR, Joyce focus on the positives…those muscular arms around your shoulders or something, just…Aughhhhh XD
The final panel has me worried for the safety of the stained glass windows. Then suddenly come the words Jesus. Is he real or is he Memorex?”
My church has electric guitars for the Sunday evening mass. But we’re the cool kind of Catholics, not the stuffy kind.
To be honest, having been raised Catholic, I always found crucifixes pretty creepy. I would have chosen something like an ancient oil lamp, personally, or maybe a fiery phoenix-like bird. I like the Celtic trinity knots too.
Full disclosure: it took me a while to remember the word “trinity” because I kept thinking Triforce.
I wonder if there’s a market niche for Christian tattoos, hey-o
That should be the next book title.
“There’s not going to be any electric guitars”?
I’d love to see Joyce react to an Arian church. (If they still exist)
This Arian is not an Arian.
Arian Christianity, was created by Bishop Arius, during the Roman era.
I’m guessing panel 4 is Jacob remembering all the things Sarah to him about Joyce ref: religion
Meanwhile as someone who was raised Catholic I’m over here like “there are churches with ELECTRIC GUITARS?” I might have stayed religious if I’d gone to that church.
Trust me, it’s not worth it, they ask for a TON more money.. 🙁