Since the alt-text seems to be Willis’ voice*, I guess that means he’s also a heretic.
Also, let’s be honest, blue sprinkles doesn’t really look right on donuts. I mean, they taste just the same, I’m sure (like sugar in sprinkle form), but donuts and blue just don’t got together well as a food aesthetics.
*It could also be “what Joyce is thinking”, but it just feels more like it’s Willis himself.
Blueberry is one of the best flavors. Put blueberry-flavored powdered sugar on pretty much anything, and I’ll give it a try. If I could figure out how to order things on Nature Box, I’d be chowing down on some blueberry almonds, right about now.
I still hold a grudge against the Colts for their constant failures when I’d play as them in old Madden NFL games on the PS1. Those assholes always lost when my brother picked the Steelers, which was every time.
One of the most relatable things I have ever seen on television was an episode of Daria where she and Jane are lost on a mountain in the snow and think they’re done for. They apologize to each other for the times they’ve been less than perfect friends, but then decide that they need to say more because “that was kind of pathetic”.
Jane decides her last words will be “I’m sorry they added those ugly blue M&Ms!”
I was so upset when they replaced the tan M&Ms with the blue ones. I recall the tan ones having a subtle caramel taste the other colors lacked, and thus tasting a little bit better. Don’t know if it was due to the food dyes used for that specific color (could have been caramel coloring) or if it was merely color influencing taste perception.
I’m surprised you’re surprised. Well, until I checked the Wikipedia page. Yikes, that was (or will be, depending on the month) 22 years ago.
I once displayed Joycean behavior and separated the colors (when tan was one of the colors), just to figure out the percentage contribution of each color. Alas, that data has been lost to history.
the no-red-M&Ms look is from the Red Dye #2 controversy taking red food coloring out of popular use, even though M&Ms used none of that particular dye – what is intriguing about the little league commercial script, is that the popular usage of amphetamines by professional baseball players, a practice that became widely known during drug trials of baseball players in the 1980’s, termed their amphetamine pills “greenies”
I was like four or five but I seem to remember them running commercials when they added blue…?
Well, all I really remember is a giant bowl of nothing but blue M&Ms and some of that sappy “commercial” music.
I’ve been rereading the Percy Jackson books over the last few weeks (currently on Blood of Olympus), and I can confirm that he is in fact both great and a dweeb.
I don’t even know how many couple fights they’ve had. All they need is someone to tell them that they’re dating. Their ship is in the water, even if the sails are down at the moment.
Just imagine Joe licking that donut clean of sprinkles and sugar coating early in the day before giving it to her to get that thought out of your head.
Actually, intense blue dye in frosting tastes weirdly like garlic breath to me. My friends think I’m an alien, because I get picky about Lofthouse cookies. Well, that and the whole “hemocyanic blood” thing, but… pfft, like hyper-efficient oxygen metabolism is so great. That stuff is like, super-corrosive.
Me, I’d personally like to think that he already had tucked the plain one away for Joyce, and that this helped him think a bit quicker on his feet when Meredith showed up. He was really quick to think up a solution there, after all.
But we’ll probably never know for sure which way it is.
Joe turned out alright in the Walkyverse, there’s no reason to think he won’t, eventually, do the same here. One of the things I have to keep reminding myself about in DoA is that while these are the same characters, they’ve had like ten to fifteen years maturity and life experience removed. Joe’s still fighting hormones for control of the brain, and it is VERY nice to see his better side here.
He seems to be aware of her habits in general, or has watched her eating (or trying to eat, going by the rice krispy treat comment). Eh, still hopeful for him.
I’m with Norton on this one. I’m pretty sure Joe remembers every detail of every woman’s personality, this is just the first time he’s been shown to care beyond “does it affect her rating”.
I think Joyce is the only woman that Joe has been shown on-screen having any amount of non-sexually-motivated interaction that isn’t even slightly hostile. Like, with Dorothy, it’s always colored by bff’s ex-gf. With Sarah it’s always fight-of-the-week between the two of them.
I… am having trouble even coming up with a third example. But my point is that those aren’t really cases where you could really make a gesture that says, “I remember you as a person.”
And don’t forget, there still is a list of good places that is either in or near Charlottesville that one can donate to. All of these places getting money will be sure to make confederate racists mad!
I work in Charlottesville and live just outside. Today was…a day. But me and mine all made it through the day alive and without lasting harm so I’m feeling pretty lucky, if emotionally drained.
Always. And if you’re ever in NE Ohio*, give me a holler and I’ll gladly meet you and feed you homemade cocoa muffins. Or homemade donuts. Or homemade cheesecake. Or homemade pizza. Or all of those things.
Just remember they’re still not the majority. They’re still obviously dangerous, but they’re hoping that if they’re loud enough, it will seem like they are more powerful and numerous than they really are. There were Broney conventions this weekend with more people. The Women’s March hadmillions more people.
These fuckers can be defeated. They can stomp and cry all they want but they are going to lose
*Hugs*
I only found out about what happened a couple hours ago. That was just…devastating to hear about. I’ve been pretty close to catatonic as a result of the shock. I can’t imagine what it must be like for someone who lives nearby, or for someone who was actually there. Because that’s terrifying. And it reminds me too much of what happened to a friend of mine back in 2015. Some racist asshole thought that he was an Arab Muslim and pushed him in front of a bus. He died. He was Sikh. Just…being reminded that there are people like the pusher or that driver in Charlottesville is painful. If there’s anything I can do to help, please let me know. I’m happy you and your friends are safe. Also, I read through the rest of your comments before composing this reply, and I just want to say that your friend is both incredibly brave and just awesome all around in the original “awe inspiring” way.
…
Also, my biggest hope is that eventually we’ll declare Neo-Nazi groups and the KKK as terrorist organizations. Because that’s what they are. Terrorists and traitors. People like your friend are heroes of the highest order as a result.
They talked about parents, Joyce asked him for advice, I think, because her relationship to her parents got complicated, and Joe’s parents are divorced, which she was worried hers might, too.
Why ae you _concerned_ anyways? It’s a nice gesture. The worst that could be happening is, Joe’s a bit in love with Joyce. Which might be, might not be, guys can do nice things for girls just because they like them and they are friends.
My mother in law has the same issue. She won’t eat blue food because she says there are no naturally blue foods in nature. (her refute to blueberries is that they aren’t actually blue on the inside)
Edible flowers are used as garnish in especially fancy places. I have no do By that there’s naturally blue edible flowers.
Also crush blackberries and tell me there’s no blue- or would that not count because the outside doesn’t look blue enough for her…? Or are they too purple?
Either way sprinkles AREN’T dyed with typical foodstuffs. Does she think orange sprinkles are coloured with oranges and red ones with strawberries? Her mind might melt if she’s clued into the beetle thing…
Blue raspberries! (Really turn much more purple than anything else, though not as far as blackberries get, but still, always fun to point out that yes the flavor is vaguely based on a real plant)
She tried to pick the rice krispies out of a rice krispy treat… wouldn’t it just be rice krispy cereal then? Why go through the effort of even buying one?
People sometimes misread/misspell Orion Fury, and last time it came up it kinda snowballed, and I thought the callback would be funny, but I guess I called with the wrong knife.
The recipe for plain homemade Rice Krispie Treats™ is, according to the Rice Krispie Box™, cereal/marshmallows/butter. You melt the marshmallows and butter and mix the cereal in, then you spread them in a pan of some sort to cool so you can cut them up. So there are always marshmallows, but you can put stuff like raisins/candy/etc. in too if you are a Daring Individual.
SERIOUSLY?
Literally the only Rice Crispie based snacks I have EVER seen here (in the UK) were chocolate based! My mind is genuinely blown that there was this conversation going on and NONE of you were imagining a chocolate based cereal snack!
And that came across as way more confrontational than I intended, whoops. I’m stunned at how different our versions are, just seriously boggled at that. Not even mind boggling, just general overall boggling!
huh! i didn’t know there was a version that used chocolate as the “glue.” i’ve had cocoa krispie treats and chocolate-drizzled rice krispie treats and even ones with m&m’s embedded within them, but not one that is entirely cemented together with chocolate. i just have been eating a shit ton of the cereal lately, so i know the recipe from the side of the box. i wonder if it’s different in the UK or whether it’s just a cultural variant you are used to and i am not?
Sometimes in my most foodly-neurotic days, I would pick out the different colored ones if they were like ‘4th of july’ ones where there would be other colors… or sprinkles. I hate sprinkles(though clearly not an issue here)
I sometimes forget that Joyce and Joe text a lot. I imagine that, eating together at lunch at times, and other observations would be how he knew, but still, thoughtful.
Honestly wonder as to the nature of their relationship, potentially, sometimes. Could something be there, or are they just friends learning a little from each other? Also, wonder if Joyce ever tried to collect on Joe’s swear bet now that she will occasionally swear.
I’m going to do a quick comic reaction because C’ville took my soul and rung it dry.
I like Joe here. I think it’s a nice demonstration that is awfulness is a mask of masculinity he feels he needs to wear, one that in truth actively poisons his relationships and who he would be without it.
And that’s the dark reality of toxic masculinity. It’s a cage as much for the person trapped perpetuated by it as by the ones harmed by it. Joe’s life has not been improved by clinging to this idea of being a college aged man his father gave to him. Joe’s friendships have not benefitted from his stag movie understanding of interacting with women.
In this one quiet moment, he does real good. He shows real connection, he repairs a relationship he hurt. He shows a caring sensitive man who could one day be someone really worth dating and getting to know. This is who he could be if he didn’t believe his mask was necessary to who he was, if he wasn’t terrified of the vulnerability of being real.
And breaking out of that is important, especially for high-school and college-aged men. I would even argue that breaking from that toxic masculinity is often a key part of growing up for men who want to not be shitlords.
And it’s hard. The punishments for failing it are hard and brutal and sometimes fatal. There’s only so many times you can watch someone being beat up for being a (slur for gay man) or “joking comments” about raping any man who decides to (slur for sexual organs) out of something. And the deeper you go into the rabbit hole you go, the harder it is back out. The more you have to leave behind in toxic friendships and communities and worldviews.
But it’s necessary. And honestly, it’s necessary for every man to finally wrestle with this demon as soon as they can. Because that toxic masculinity is killing us all.
Kim Jong Un and Donald Trump are both escalating a nuclear confrontation because toxic masculinity tells men that “backing down” and “talking things out” is unmanly. This “tough talk” is helping Trump’s poll numbers because guys associate dangerous violent bluster with “being a man” and “being strong”.
And today, a number of men walked into C’ville ready to kill. At least one of them succeeded in that mission. And every last one of those neo-nazi fucks slid down that rabbit hole of awfulness because of that fear of being “weak”, of being made “less”, of having to change. Of having to grow out of a toxic masculinity that demands only rage and violence and stomping on the lesser to make themselves feel strong.
The man who murdered with his car today in an act of neo-nazi terrorism on behalf of a neo-nazi group in response to nazi-sympathizing GOP leaders who have tried to pass bills to make it legal to drive over protestors. That man?
He was 20. He was college-aged. He was soaking in alt-right and neo-nazi garbage. He went all the way down that rabbit hole.
Could Joe have gone all the way down the rabbit hole? I don’t know. I would like to believe that no he would never. I do at least know that the communities he was parroting and echoing in his rhetoric? Many of their leaders have. At this point most of the “big names” of the MRA and PUA communities are openly neo-nazis or at least are heavily supportive of holocaust deniers and making dog whistles to neo-nazis and white supremacists.
The community Joe was falling in with is a dangerous one. One that has recruited a lot of angry college aged men nervous about the vulnerability of letting a woman say no to them. Of the possibility that they could be rejected. That getting with someone they desire might never happen.
That want an easy cheat mode that doesn’t make them feel like a (slur for gay man) by having to treat their date as an equal human being who has complete autonomy over their body.
And so here. This moment? Joe letting that go? I want to believe this is the real deal. That every step from this one might have backsteps but they will continue to go only in positive directions. That he will learn that the Joe he is in these quiet private moments with Joyce is actually a pretty decent guy. One that women would actually be a lot more interested in being with.
Toxic masculinity is not an easy demon to slay. It will come up a lot and Joe will have a lot more growing to do until he’s as consistently comfortable being Caring Joe as he used to be being Creeper Joe in public, but I believe in him.
I believe in the man he will become after he throws away the mask once and for all.
[cw: description of misogynistic violence against a woman]
I wasn’t able to counter-protest since I worked all day, but a group of my friends did. One of them in particular, who is legit the person I want to be when I grow up, was right up there getting into Nazi faces, disrupting their flow, actually managed to interrupt David Duke’s speech from what I heard later.
But when she was face to face with one of those fucking wastes of carbon, for the “crime” of insisting that she was equal to him, he dropped his fucking homemade riot shield and grabbed her by the throat and started choking her. When people got him off her, he just kept smugly saying he’d made his point. That…just says it all, to me. Their point was inciting violence and fear.
Thankfully my mall was spared the violence, but early in the day, we had a dozen or so alt righters march through. They didn’t do anything, just made it clear they were there and could have if they wanted to.
Me too. Another friend was streaming the whole thing, and within seconds she was back up going “You think that proves anything?” She’s an incredible person.
I feel vaguely guilty for not being there, to be honest, but…oh well.
Oh no. I’m glad she’s safe and the nazi was arrested. And yeah, that is the central thing about nazis. What they want is violence and death. That is their “point” and why assholes fetishizing “defending their free speech rights” miss the damn point entirely.
Sending lovely hugs from my fluffy bunnies to you and Cerb.
This is honestly what I was scared about with Trump becoming president. Less the laws he would enact and more the social reaction to it.
I honestly try to ignore the news. It’s too much for me. I can’t change it, and it doesn’t make me a better person to indulge in it and it actively reduces my wellbeing. So I admit to being ignorant to a lot of stuff like this, and that it only occasionally pings on my radar. But despite that, I still earnestly and passionately believe all people should be entitled to a life of freedom from fear, poverty and being second class citizens regardless of the country that life is spent in.
I saw so much fear and so much hatred all over the news and the internet today; it was literally overwhelming. This is the society we (and by “we” I mean “All U.S.ians who overtly, tacitly, or by omission/inaction have participated in this state of affairs”) have created. A U.S. in which people are openly wishing violent death on others and *acting on that wish.* A U.S. in which people *honestly* believe that having paler skin makes you not only superior but also gives you carte blanche to control and kill others. A U.S. in which a young man who can’t even legally drink alcohol absorbed so much hatred and fear that he committed murder in the name of his twisted Nazi ideology.
And we’ve got a president who “hand-waves” it. Instead of giving those of us who need it the catharisis of naming this fear, hatred, and toxic masculinity for what it is, he used dismissive language that further validated those on their way down that rabbit hole.
As flawed as Joe is, I hope the path he seems to be taking is the path many other scared and angry young men in this country will choose. You are 100% – fighting toxic masculinity is hard, and it’s harder when we currently have so many people in positions of power who epitomize it.
*Offers virtual donut of choice, with or without sprinkles*
I’m honestly terrified ninety percent of the time these days and am extremely grateful to my anti-anxiety medication. It’s a scary time we’re all trapped in.
And it’ll be even scarier going forward. The students I’ll be teaching next year are going to be right in the target sights of these neo-nazis and it’s going to be a lot of work keeping them safe.
i wonder if it’s helped Joe to have someone in his circle who is a) a woman b) his age c) someone he no longer feels any pressure to fuck, because of their disastrous date
i mean, with the start they had, i’m surprised he was willing to talk to her again at all (or her to him). but since they’re talking, they almost seem like siblings who don’t see eye to eye but still look out for each other.
it’s never a woman’s responsibility to be an example of ‘hey woman are people too, ya dingus’ for a man’s character growth, but . . it kinda seems that’s what’s happened here, and i’m surpised to be glad for it. as long as it doesn’t become Joyce’s Job to Reform The Well-meaning Man, anyway 😛
*applauds* Thank you for writing this, Cerberus–a thoughtful and, I think, realistic analysis of the broader situation.
And I gotta say, regarding the comic, it is really heartwarming to see Joe realize that his past actions have hurt people and take a first step towards righting those wrongs.
Your experience of male socialization is largely inconsistent with mine. None of the things you mentioned are due to “toxic masculinity”.
Thatcher declared war on Argentina, and queens such as Catherine the Great or Queen Victoria have launched lots of offensive war. Wars are typically launched for personal political gain and trying to overanalyze this differently from an ideological lens is unlikely to give you much.
Persecutions of are hardly due to “toxic masculinity either”. They are due to ideology and tribalism. Homophobia in the present-day US is mainly correlated to Christianity and mostly uncorrelated to anything else. Most Romans would have far more of what you call “toxic masculinity”, yet they viewed homosexual behaviour as perfectly normal.
Pretty much every claim you make can be shown to have a clear counterexample with just a few minutes of critical research. I would very strongly advise researching any claim you make, especially if they are of the “everyone I don’t like has the same ideology” kind which Americans tend to be very quick to make, sadly.
I don’t think anyone is blaming toxic masculinity for all the ills and problems of society, but it is certainly a large contributing force, especially in the United States right now, where this comic takes place. Pointing to other cultures and saying they didn’t experience toxic masculinity isn’t helpful to this discussion. The other thing to keep in mind is that there is a lot of overlap between people who were raised to believe in toxic masculinity as the only way to show your manliness and those who find themselves in neo-nazi groups.
And I would argue that toxic masculinity requires its own ideology and tribalism. Your personal experience may not correlate with this, but it is very real in many parts of North America. Just because you haven’t personally experienced doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and isn’t influencing other people.
One final point – you seem to be making the exact argument you’re warning other people against making, sadly, by criticizing both “Christianity” and “Americans” as if they all have the same ideology.
Toxic masculinity is not nor should ever be seen as masculinity or maleness. It is a toxic mass consuming masculinity from the inside. A mythology that harms young men growing up making them feel that the only way to avoid getting backlash is to perform a terrible pantomime of “masculinity” defined entirely by avoiding the feminine and strict controls on allowed expressions of behavior.
Men are not the problem. Men are suffering in these systems. I would argue that the ones most in this often racist, sexist, homophobic hell are suffering a lot, always worried that the slightest lack of violent response, of performed hypermasculinity as defined by this cult will see them treated as if they were a woman and hurt.
Toxic masculinity for me in its short form is, “When men are pressured to be violent assholes who dominate and conquer with a loathing of anything which doesn’t fit a proud warrior ethos.” In short, whenever you’re pressured to act like a Klingon. It’s something I’d argue is culturally ingrained in militarism that trickled down into male culture as a whole versus the opposite but that’s a chicken or egg thing as this is about everything from the Spartans to the Romans to the Samurai and beyond.
Honestly, once you strip away the toxic variety, what sort of masculinity is even left? If that’s all there is, is masculinity even a meaningful concept?
I will also add
• [the option to have] a kickass beard
• [the possibility of being] tall and strong
• [perhaps having] a deep booming voice
I included the brackets because I’m not trying to say that these are what masculinity has to mean for anybody else, but they’re part of what it means to me personally.
And since “tall and strong” is a mere attribute of the body, I’m also gonna add “choosing to use one’s size and strength to help others when possible, and take care not to use them in ways that hurt others.”
Or, as Shakespeare put it, “O, it is excellent to have a giant’s strength; but it is tyrannous to use it like a giant.”
For a good example of non-Toxic masculinity, I would like to recommend the webcomic “Manly Guys Doing Manly Things” by Kelly Turnbull aka Coelesquid, in particular the main male character, who is heavily based on the cartoonist’s father with a palette swap. (Considering that Kelly Turnbull herself is this awesome punk rock looking motorcyclist from Manitoba, married to an Indie circuit professional wrestler giant of a man, is the daughter of a hardworking grizzly outdoorsman who I can only assume was either a lumberjack or a chemical processing plant foreman, and regularly attends Mad Max-style post-appocolypse conventions, I will assume she knows how non-toxic masculinity works)
The way I think of it: toxic masculinity is like red apples. Someone talking about red apples isn’t saying that all apples are red. If they don’t like red apples, they might still like green apples!
Adjectives, how do they work…. 😉
Cerberus isn’t saying that all war is due to toxic masculinity. She’s saying this confrontation between Trump and Kim is due to toxic masculinity.
I don’t know enough of North Korean culture to know if it’s true on that side. But is really appears true on this side.
It’s easy to over-generalize what someone says, and then argue that it’s not true in all cases, and then tell them to shut up. But it’s also not good argument on your part.
No… you’re just wrong. Homophobia in the U.S. is related to Christianity, but it’s also very strongly related to gender. In the U.S., women consistently support gay marriage at higher rates than men in polls, even though women regularly attend religious services at higher rates than men. (Both of these gender gaps are significantly smaller or nonexistent for millennials, and both are dropping rapidly overall.) Additionally, American Catholics, despite the fact that their sect theoretically demands strict adherence to social norms — including homophobia — support gay marriage at relatively high rates. Evangelical and fundamentalist Protestant Christians oppose gay marriage at very high rates, but they are also among the most blatantly patriarchal groups in the country and broadly believe that men should lead the house and the country and women should follow. Consider the possibility that these two facts might be connected — that evangelical Christian men might have been raised to feel that they have to prove their manhood through domination, and that homophobia might be a result of that.
Consider the possibility that the evangelical conception of masculinity could accurately be called ‘toxic.’
Also, the Romans were blatantly homophobic — their view of masculinity led them to believe that being penetrated made you weak and easily dominated. You may be thinking of the ancient Greeks, who believed in extreme masculinity but were accepting of homosexuality, though they frequently practiced it in the form of pederasty.
And regarding your opinions on war… the U.S. has very little to gain from a war with North Korea. It would be a disaster for our relations with China and would likely be a tremendously bloody affair that would decimate portions of South Korea and much of the NK civilian population. Trump is gunning for war because he wants to believe that, to quote his Tweet on the matter, “there will never be a time that we are not the most powerful nation in the world!” Hypernationalists like our president and many of his supporters try to demonstrate their strength through the strength of their country, even when it gets people killed.
Cerberus, thank you. Gestures of support. I’ve been watching the whole Charlottesville debacle play out and our president talk like “well both sides, you know” and have told several people to stop treating it like it’s some kind of spacial anomaly from Star Trek. It’s embedded in our culture and needs to be stomped out now.
One person, I simply had to tell to bugger off. Can’t be my friend if you make excuses for Nazis. I didn’t used to need a rule for that but now it’s in the book.
I told a bunch of college students recently; “Break this cage now, it’s harder later.”
An excellent analysis of toxic masculinity. I disagree with one minor but important point. The Charlottesville neo-Nazis are not as afraid of looking weak as they are afraid of losing power. They have realized that in their lifetime they will lose enough societal power that they will start being treated half as badly as they treat everyone else. To them that is a terrifying concept. They are trying desperately to assert their power and hold everyone else down. This is likely to get worse before it gets better, but that means they are losing.
Its only when the empire’s breaking that you see their teeth – Al Stewart, Rain Barrel
Indeed. Though I would argue that to a neo-nazi, losing the slightest bit of power in any arena is interpreted as being made “weak”. Which is why a lot of the narratives surrounding other races are full of rage at them somehow “stealing their power” and now “running rampant”. Which is why it’s important to them to march in the streets and let folks know they can kill them at any point.
Cerberus, I’m writing this to agree with you, for others reading the thread.
I was thinking this morning about a guy who lives down the street from me, who I heard tell a young boy who was upset after getting in a physical struggle with a girl over a toy: “If you get beat up by a girl, you get no sympathy from me.”
That’s a root of toxic masculinity, right there. It’s bad enough on the surface: boys and girls are different, boys should be stronger.
Unpack it deeper, and it gets worse. If a boy takes damage from a girl, it is now his job to win a fight with her, to prove he didn’t get beaten up.
If a woman dares to do anything which a man feels as an injury, she must be injured far worse, by him, in order to put things right.
If anyone doubts the validity and applicability of the phrase “toxic masculinity” – well, it’s exactly the right phrase to describe the belief “Because I’m a man, if I feel hurt by a woman, I have to destroy her.”
And it starts with “If you get beat up by a girl, you get no sympathy” in response to a kid being upset because he was shoved by another kid.
What happened in Charlottesville has nothing to do with masculinity and everything to do with racism. By saying that those white supremacists were motivated by “trying to look manly” and not the actual cause is really gross. They don’t want to be “made less” and “changed” by people of color and jewish people. You saying that this all stems from misogyny and not racism alleviates white women from their place in white supremacy as well. Also, Joe is literally Jewish lol. Why the HELL would he be associating himself with nazis. Please don’t downplay this ugly event for the sake of a nonexistent point. Sorry for being rude but this personally affects me as a person of color only 30 mins away from Charlottesville. This is not a topic people should be getting mixed up about.
Masculinity’s all tied up in the alt-right though. It was an overwhelmingly male crowd, from what I can tell. The alt-right’s favorite insult, “cuck”, is all tied into both masculinity and race. There are many ways into that movement, but it turns into a toxic stew of all kinds of bigotry.
This particular outbreak was triggered by and focused on race, but the movement is broader.
Good point that Joe is Jewish though. Even if he had headed down the MRA path, that likely would have helped keep him from getting caught up in the larger movement.
Yeah, I think Joe being Jewish would have largely saved him from falling all the way down the hole. As would his tendency to empathy when no one is watching.
And to bleepbloop, you’re right that the event was a racist event first and foremost and racial violence was their first and strongest desire and that I should have focused that in my comment. I was only trying to talk about the recruitment I’ve seen in misogynist spaces where young white men are recruited with misogyny and then indoctrinated with racism, often intertwining racist fears with sexual fears (like the often used racist bugaboo of the “swarthy” horde coming and taking all the white women).
That all said, that doesn’t discount that my words likely had an effect of minimizing the role racism played and for that I apologize to you.
Hey Cerberus, maybe I’m reading too much into this, but was that “should have” a “sorry I forgot about that” or a “god, how could I be so stupid…” ? Because one of those is healthy and one isn’t 😉
Wish I could type more but I’m out today and mobile Firefox is still flaky on this site
Ugh, I finally read an article about the thing and… Wow. Ugh. I don’t even words.
And the fuckers, in between their giant piles of racism, actually used the word patriarchal. Ugh. I don’t want to even quote it, it’s so gross (and Firefox might lose my comment in switching tabs anyways), but it was an article on The Guardian.
*appropriate gestures of support* Thank you for posting folks. C*ville is foremost in a lot of minds right now. In my own house, it is mostly the focus of sadness and anger and well, not disbelief – we believe it, hell, we kind of expected something like this to happen eventually. 45 has disappointed us all again by being himself. If our leaders do not do something about the problem, they become part of the problem.
The sad thing is that it will get worse. I am sitting in my house wondering how we are going to get people to safety. Because that’s my main thought now – people I care for are going to be targets that will not be safe in this country. Not only will we need to fight back, but likely we will need to get the most vulnerable to safety somehow. 🙁
I like to picture Joe’s journey out of toxic masculinity kind of like home finding a way out of a long dark shadowy forest full of vines, thorns, and all sorts of planty nastiness. He wants to get out (I think he has since he first started texting Joyce and thus started communicating with her as an equal instead of a foreign object) but he’s lost and doesn’t know how to get out. He has no path. Then he sees one (Joyce points it out) and tries to get there but keeps getting stuck, tangled, or tripped. Then, with Danny’s help and prompting, he sets up the apology donut stand and like that he’s been pushed onto the path out of the forest. It’s a long path, filled with obstacles, but it’s a path nonetheless. Will he stumble, trip, fall, and sometimes get turned around or stopped? Yes. But has my hope in Joe, and my belief that he’ll get back up and push on through that path, been restored? Hell yes it has.
I’m always extra glad to see you here after…well, the next awful thing has just happened. All this awful is frighteningly regular and every now and then I think about you and hope that you’re doing ok. I love your voice and your bravery and your strong sense of justice. You give me a lot of hope just knowing that someone like you exists, and seeing you here making your comments as usual…it makes me feel like you’re beating the awful, sort of. I don’t know if I’m making any sense. *shrugs* *offered virtual hugs*
Also
*hugs offered*
I only learned about what happened at Charlottesville about six hours ago. And since then I’ve been sort of petrified from shock. Because it’s disturbing. It’s horrifying. And it’s all to familiar. It brought to mind various events of history for me, from Woodrow Wilson having feminist protesters arrested during WW1, to police dogs and fire hoses being used on civil rights marchers in the 60s, to riots in the 80s, to every case of lynching, and to one of my best friends being pushed in front of a bus in 2015 because some asshole thought that “turban” equaled “Muslim” and thought that fact made it ok to get a Sikh killed. So, I’ve been scared. Not for myself, because I’m an unlikely target do to white cis-male privilege, but because my remaining friends and current partner could easily become targets for this type of hate. I hope you, your loved ones, and your kids can find a way to stay safe in these dark times. And, if it’s ok with you, I’d like to end this comment with a quote. Whenever I’m at my most scared, my most hopeless, my most defeated these words always help me:
“But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine all the clearer.”-Samwise Gamgee, The Lord of the Rings: The Twin Towers.
As a guy who grew up with too much of that nonsense I wholeheartedly agree with all of that (except how much initiative Un has in leading North Korea, I think he’s a near powerless figurehead)
Pain, suffering, madness. I just wanna post lightheartedness, with the odd civil discourse that can occur from people being different. It’s a challenge, and I don’t think I can understand it all, let alone accept that it’s happening. I’m safe, and it hurts that there are people out there that can’t say that.
I think Joe and Joyce could be really good for each other. I really want to see them slowly and healthily develop a healthy supportive relationship where they can explore the people they’re becoming. And I don’t mean a romantic one- although I think the potential is there, I just want that strong, supportive relationship, regardless of anything more.
Although I think the fact that Joe has totally written Joyce off for now is a very promising beginning. It’s allowing them this closeness that is a healthy foundation for more.
A doughnut made with a different sort of flour, so it’s denser and more cake-like.
You know how (yeast) raised doughnuts have a pastry-ish consistency? Cake doughnuts, per the name, are closer to that (but not quite).
Now, for me, the strangeness – as I first noted a couple of pages/strips back – is that I’d never, until this storyline, heard of “yeast” doughnuts. Cake donuts, yes; “raised” doughnuts, yes. But never “yeast” or “yeast-raised”, just “raised.” I suspect it may be a regionalism, like soda vs. pop. (I’m in the Pacific NW.)
She’s not. She eats a wide variety of foods just so long as they don’t touch. That’s not so severe. There are people in this world whose diet is limited to under 20 items. That’s severe enough to merit therapy. (And the person you see is usually a speech language pathologist, for some reason.)
They’re too damn cute together, though! They are each other’s exception! I WILL NEVER SURRENDER THIS SHIP! MAN THE BILGE PUMP AND LAY TAR ON THOSE CRACKS, BOYS!
Let me rephrase; my initial question above was more of a “suggestion”-type question, as in “if both Joyce and Dorothy are canonically straight, you can ship them platonically instead of romantically”.
I’ve always thought that one of the best things that could happen to both is that have a nice, normal date, a date where marriage and sexy times is of the table (but can be discussed) where they just enjoy each others company and then depart at the end of the night
If it goes well maybe have another date but really just so it might help Joyce recover and that Joe can see theres more to girls then just whats between their legs
Damn. Too late to go get donuts except for that one place that’s very far from home. Already planning tomorrow’s order. Hmmmm…. donuts. Blueberry. Chocolate cake. Yessssss
I mean, she does not lead a hunter-gatherer’s lifestyle where you either eat what you have or don’t eat. She lives in a modern city where she can actually pick and choose what she eats, and worst case scenario she just reduces her portion of food by picking out parts of it she can’t eat.
I have a food-pickiness almost equal to Joyce’s, even if in a slightly different form, and honestly? The biggest obstacle to not even noticing that it’s something unusual is people who make a big deal out of it.
Same. I’m pretty picky. If there’s two different textures in my mouth (like with mixing food or any kind of soup or stew) it’s like my brain goes ‘Hmmm, it’s not thing X and it’s not thing Y….I dunno what it is, out it goes’ and it sets off my gag reflex.
To be fair, he was talking about himself too, and we know it was just bravado at this point, since he never actually had a threesome. Making up stories about dubious consent is still pretty disgusting though.
Different rules apply to different people, for example look how Ruth treated Billie (stalking, breaking and entering, mental abuse, physical abuse, sexual assault etc) but its ok now
That is correct however Joe is being hated on for what hes said in the past, which may or may not be true, whereas the present relationship of Ruth and Billie is given a pass (by the posters on this board) even though Ruths behavior was/is much worse than Joes ever was
And Joe is only marginally becoming a genuinely good dude as of today and he wasn’t doing so hot earlier in the day either. Yeah, we’re still “hating” on Joe for what he’s said in the past, because it fits the same pattern we’ve seen up to his interactions with Rachel earlier today. If this is Joe’s turn around point, then it’s not equivalent to Ruth and Billie today, but when they first formed their Sexy Lesbian Suicide Pact. And even then Ruth’d shown far more self-awareness of her issues than Joe has of his.
Not to mention that plenty of people are showing cautious optimism and praising every hint of decent behavior from Joe.
As for “may or may not be true”, part of the tragedy of Joe is that he’s compelled to pretend to live up to this toxic masculine standard, even when he really isn’t doing all of it.
I don’t know about that, its only been a short couple of weeks interspersed with hospital stays. We’ve also seen Ruth maybe, sort of, wanting to revert back to her old ways (also may have been joking) so I’m thinking that its too soon to say its fine now
The change in Joe’s behavior is even more recent. There’s no telling whether it will stick at all, or how often or badly he’ll backslide on the way. Same goes for Ruth.
My main point is that Joe isn’t getting judged on a double standard. There just haven’t been as many people who tried to downplay the harm caused by Ruth’s past behavior.
People expressing how much Joe’s behavior bothered them have very frequently gotten responses about how they’re “making a big deal out of nothing” or “being melodramatic”. This rightly makes people upset, and wrongly means people have to explain, over and over, how and why Joe’s behavior was harmful.
Ruth doesn’t seem to get that kind of defender saying her bullying, threats, and intimidation were totally okay from day one (or at least not as many). Part of that is because her actions were more explicitly, obviously harmful. Not many people would deny that physically assaulting someone and then kissing them isn’t something worth getting upset about.
I compare this to the treatment Danny got when he was a straight white male and then what happened after he became attracted to Ethan
The criticism of Danny died out very quickly yet the main change (at the time) was that he was interested in a guy
Sometimes I get the feeling that for some posters on here (not saying you) the characters almost become proxies for some of the ills happening in the USA
This is exactly the kind of shit I’m talking about.
This complete, stubborn inability to believe that people who see a problem with Joe’s behavior actually have a problem with Joe’s behavior.
The exact same bullshit happens when women complain about similar behavior in real life. It gets dismissed, or downplayed as just “boys being boys”.
But yes, that IS part of what’s happening here. People have been watching harmful, dangerous behavior and saying “oh well, it doesn’t seem that bad from where I’M standing, I don’t see what everyone’s so worked up about…”
I’m not saying Joe shouldn’t or shouldn’t get flak for his behaviour (he should because some of it has not been good) I’m saying that different standards are at play
Which is understandable when you compare it groups but isn’t fair when its compared to individuals
Ok maybe not different standards but how quickly a character can be “forgiven” is dependent on factors such gender
As an example how long did it take for Hank to finally win over the message boards (and I’d bet theres some just waiting for him to revert to type) even though he was in a very difficult situation himself
Certainly not as long as it took Ruth even though Ruths transgressions were certainly worse than Joes or Hanks
Exactly what reason did anyone have to trust that Hank wasn’t a bigot? Almost every person who expected him to react badly was basing that on their personal experience with bigoted parents. And every time he defied those expectations, tons of commenters were joyfully applauding that he had.
If people still think Hank is a horrible person (some do, for having been a bigot so long, and enabled so much bigotry around him), that doesn’t make him any different from Ruth. There’s still people who think of Ruth as an abusive monster. There’s people who still think Joyce is an asshole, and only reluctantly tolerate her.
Joe isn’t getting harsher treatment. Neither is Hank.
Danny actually was, but much of that seemed to be the result of his portrayal in It’s Walky, not due to some ridiculous bias against men.
I appreciate your replies and while I may not agree with all of them I’ve enjoyed reading them but I don’t think I’m going to be able to convince you of my pov and vice versa but it has made my work day go that little bit faster so thanks
Okay, that was genuinely sweet and a wonderful act of friendship on Joe’s part. He’s a guy with hidden depths, even though I suspect that he’s afraid of them.
Joyce, meanwhile, seems to be fighting an internal battle. She wants that donut. She needs that donut but she also doesn’t want to even tangentially admit to her neuroses in front of Joe. I suspect that she’s trying to work out if he’s indirectly mocking her but I don’t think so.
Well, the blue mascot apparently represents Almond M&Ms, and a variety of almond is considered a bad sign, for some reason I can never find an answer to. So, I guess the person who told your friend wasn’t a complete liar?
Some varieties of almonds (bitter almonds) contain amygdalin, which converts to cyanide in…a lot of different situations, actually. The lethal dose is actually pretty low – as few as 50 or so almonds can be lethal for an adult, or 5 for a child.
Bitter almonds are not cultivated for human consumption, at least not on any scale, and sweet almonds are safe.
The friendship of these two was one of the best things of Roomies and IW. They are such great foils for each other’s worst flaws that their rough edges just fit perfectly with one another. It’s really good to see that developing in DoA too. In fact, I’d say that Joyce + Joe BFFs is the only “ship” I care for being imported from previous stories.
It suddenly strikes me that I should have had some writing prepared, before I opened my FictionPress and FanFiction accounts. Now I’m left wondering what sort of things to write…
Well, I once wrote a series of fanfics about Levi from Attack on Titan and Akuma from Street Fighter having a master/slave relationship and eating various pies. So, it shouldn’t be too hard to come up with something.
The first chapter was. After that, it sorta drifted off into food porn. It was also written out of spite for a guy I knew, who loves Akuma for the same reasons he hates Levi, so I took it down.
I think its sweet that Joe specifically saved a plain donut for Joyce because he paid enough attention to her preferences to know she prefers not to have different things touch. However if he knew her little better he would know its sort of punishing Joyce for her pickiness by taking away the best parts. Note Joyce did not order a cheese pizza but a sausage pizza with the sausage on the side. She wanted the sausage. Basically A grade friending would likely be to bring her a paper plate with her donut and A+ friending would be to separate it for her or in Joes case since he’s providing the donuts spring for a shaker of sprinkles.
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Joyce prolly separates the dough and the nut, sprinkles or no
She takes the hole out of the donut. This actually results on more donut.
mmm… donuts…
I will use this relatively high-placed, relevant comment to say this: DAMN YOU WILLIS FOR NOT LISTING “BOTH” AS AN OPTION IN THE DONUT POLL.
So… what happens to the hole?
Ghosts eat it? (When I was a kid, my dad told me ghosts ate donut holes)
That’s a plot to an old cartoon (I want to say Felix the Cat, but I can’t be sure).
They are sold separately. I’ve bough some at Trader Joe’s.
Yup.
You can even use donut holes to fill the holes in donuts. They don’t even have to match!
When my mom worked at Casey’s, she was always bringing blueberry cake donut holes home with her, and I’d nab a couple of them. That was good.
KILL THE HERETIC WHO HATES BLUE SPRINKLES!
…Oddly specific there, shoggie. Aren’t we supposed to kill all the heretics?
Isn’t that something only a heretic would say?
Why would a heretic promote killing heretics? Wouldn’t they want to do the opposite?
Hey buddy, you’re sounding pretty heretical right now. Watch it.
Since the alt-text seems to be Willis’ voice*, I guess that means he’s also a heretic.
Also, let’s be honest, blue sprinkles doesn’t really look right on donuts. I mean, they taste just the same, I’m sure (like sugar in sprinkle form), but donuts and blue just don’t got together well as a food aesthetics.
*It could also be “what Joyce is thinking”, but it just feels more like it’s Willis himself.
Blueberry donuts.
noooo i had almost forgotten the deliciousness of Best Donut
why did you have to remind me
Blueberry is one of the best flavors. Put blueberry-flavored powdered sugar on pretty much anything, and I’ll give it a try. If I could figure out how to order things on Nature Box, I’d be chowing down on some blueberry almonds, right about now.
In Indiana, any combination of blue and white is highly likely to be encountered on doughnuts, cakes, cookies, etc.
Because Colts.
In southern indiana ie Evansville, that’s doubled.
Because UK
I still hold a grudge against the Colts for their constant failures when I’d play as them in old Madden NFL games on the PS1. Those assholes always lost when my brother picked the Steelers, which was every time.
I renounce your False Sprinkle God Emperor!!! Heretic!!!
She doesn’t like blue sprinkles?! UNCLEAN UNCLEAN! ~throw blue sprinkles cat Joyce~. The power of blue compells you!
One of the most relatable things I have ever seen on television was an episode of Daria where she and Jane are lost on a mountain in the snow and think they’re done for. They apologize to each other for the times they’ve been less than perfect friends, but then decide that they need to say more because “that was kind of pathetic”.
Jane decides her last words will be “I’m sorry they added those ugly blue M&Ms!”
Those bastards stain everything.
I was so upset when they replaced the tan M&Ms with the blue ones. I recall the tan ones having a subtle caramel taste the other colors lacked, and thus tasting a little bit better. Don’t know if it was due to the food dyes used for that specific color (could have been caramel coloring) or if it was merely color influencing taste perception.
Even more regretful was their removing the skin from the peanut inside the peanut M&M, subtracting the tannic bitterness from its flavor profile.
Wait, the blue M&Ms used to be tan? I’ve only ever seen them in their present state, barring holiday-themed colors like violet and orange.
I’m surprised you’re surprised. Well, until I checked the Wikipedia page. Yikes, that was (or will be, depending on the month) 22 years ago.
I once displayed Joycean behavior and separated the colors (when tan was one of the colors), just to figure out the percentage contribution of each color. Alas, that data has been lost to history.
One should differentiate between the colors. Green M&Ms were Spinach Pills capable of powering awesome heroics.
I’m 24-ish. By the time they changed the color, I’d barely started forming proper memories.
…as seen on TV
I can see about half a dozen things to snark at in that commercial, but those tan M&Ms make it look strangely creepy.
the no-red-M&Ms look is from the Red Dye #2 controversy taking red food coloring out of popular use, even though M&Ms used none of that particular dye – what is intriguing about the little league commercial script, is that the popular usage of amphetamines by professional baseball players, a practice that became widely known during drug trials of baseball players in the 1980’s, termed their amphetamine pills “greenies”
I was like four or five but I seem to remember them running commercials when they added blue…?
Well, all I really remember is a giant bowl of nothing but blue M&Ms and some of that sappy “commercial” music.
Percy Jackson disagrees.
Anna Beth calls him Seaweed Brain
Percy Jackson is a fuckin’ dweeb.
Yep
Percy Jackson is great and I will not stand for this libel
He can be both.
*narrows eyes*
Fair enough.
I’ve been rereading the Percy Jackson books over the last few weeks (currently on Blood of Olympus), and I can confirm that he is in fact both great and a dweeb.
Oh Joyce, you try not to be cute, but you end up doing it anyway…
I still remember when she tried to be cool by imitating Sal, that was the most adorable she’s ever been.
But the donuts with sprinkles are the best!
I love seeing someone be picky and touchy about food like me.
There’s a lot of relatable stuff in this comic, even.
…Goddammit, don’t make me start shipping them this late in the game.
Too late there’s no going back on something that cute
I don’t even know how many couple fights they’ve had. All they need is someone to tell them that they’re dating. Their ship is in the water, even if the sails are down at the moment.
Never stopped.
Same. I really do hope these two become an official thing. I think it’d help them both grow up a bit.
Just imagine Joe licking that donut clean of sprinkles and sugar coating early in the day before giving it to her to get that thought out of your head.
And the purple ones are too tart.
The green ones look at me funny.
Sword Art Online Abridged reference?
“There’s no need to wonder where your god is! ‘Cause he’s right here!”
*and he’s fresh out of mercy* . . .
Sarah and Kirito would tolerate each other.
As long as he never tries to introduce her to Asuna.
There’s just so much beauty in the world, you know?
Actually, intense blue dye in frosting tastes weirdly like garlic breath to me. My friends think I’m an alien, because I get picky about Lofthouse cookies. Well, that and the whole “hemocyanic blood” thing, but… pfft, like hyper-efficient oxygen metabolism is so great. That stuff is like, super-corrosive.
Just say thank you, Joyce. Just say thank you.
He kept a plain one.
Joe specifically kept a plain one tucked away. For Joyce. Because he actually remembered that she does not like different foods touching.
I’ve never been more cautiously optimistic about Joe than right now.
I’m wonder if the conversation with Meredith prompted him to consider Joyce’s food preferences.
*wondering
Me, I’d personally like to think that he already had tucked the plain one away for Joyce, and that this helped him think a bit quicker on his feet when Meredith showed up. He was really quick to think up a solution there, after all.
But we’ll probably never know for sure which way it is.
Joe turned out alright in the Walkyverse, there’s no reason to think he won’t, eventually, do the same here. One of the things I have to keep reminding myself about in DoA is that while these are the same characters, they’ve had like ten to fifteen years maturity and life experience removed. Joe’s still fighting hormones for control of the brain, and it is VERY nice to see his better side here.
He seems to be aware of her habits in general, or has watched her eating (or trying to eat, going by the rice krispy treat comment). Eh, still hopeful for him.
Same.
This is the most detail he has ever remembered about a woman’s personality up to this point.
And 3-I just hit the arrow that had already been lodged in the target, princess Merida style! And the crowd goes wild!
Heresy! It’s only disney’s Robin Hood that can do that!
Isn’t Merida also Disney, via Pixar?
Post-acquisition, so there’s not a lot of point in making that distinction, really.
This is by far my proudest moment. It’s gonna suck when the steroid accusations come out.
What’s the worst that could happen in that situation, though? It’s not like people can retroactively force you to have taken steroids.
As far as you know.
That would be an odd use of time-travel…
I’m with Norton on this one. I’m pretty sure Joe remembers every detail of every woman’s personality, this is just the first time he’s been shown to care beyond “does it affect her rating”.
I… pretty much agreed with 3-I?
I doubt it. I doubt he’s actually gotten to know more than a handful of them.
I think Joyce is the only woman that Joe has been shown on-screen having any amount of non-sexually-motivated interaction that isn’t even slightly hostile. Like, with Dorothy, it’s always colored by bff’s ex-gf. With Sarah it’s always fight-of-the-week between the two of them.
I… am having trouble even coming up with a third example. But my point is that those aren’t really cases where you could really make a gesture that says, “I remember you as a person.”
There was Meredith. He gave her his Taco Bell card so she could get some gluten-free snacks.
That’s not what I mean. That was the first time we ever saw Meredith, so it hardly counts.
this!!!!!
What’s wrong with blue sprinkles? They taste good to me.
blue is the best flavour. 🙂
So does the “Joyce is autobiographical” thing apply to blue sprinkles?
Dude, at least use a napkin for that.
And don’t forget, there still is a list of good places that is either in or near Charlottesville that one can donate to. All of these places getting money will be sure to make confederate racists mad!
https://medium.com/@SaraJBenincasa/what-to-do-about-charlottesville-dfc7d6636d56
Assuming the Nazis don’t wreck the whole place, there’s a Spudnut there that has some pretty good potato-based donuts.
Spudnuts closed last year unfortunately 🙁
Ah… that’s truly unfortunate. I guess it’s just Nazis then. :-/
I work in Charlottesville and live just outside. Today was…a day. But me and mine all made it through the day alive and without lasting harm so I’m feeling pretty lucky, if emotionally drained.
I’m just scared for what happens next.
*superhugs*
/hugs
Appreciated ♥
Always. And if you’re ever in NE Ohio*, give me a holler and I’ll gladly meet you and feed you homemade cocoa muffins. Or homemade donuts. Or homemade cheesecake. Or homemade pizza. Or all of those things.
*Not that I blame you if you never are.
*ultra hugs*
Just remember they’re still not the majority. They’re still obviously dangerous, but they’re hoping that if they’re loud enough, it will seem like they are more powerful and numerous than they really are. There were Broney conventions this weekend with more people. The Women’s March hadmillions more people.
These fuckers can be defeated. They can stomp and cry all they want but they are going to lose
As a former half-identified Brony (got off the bus at Season 3), I take umbrage at your use of an E.
-hugs-
*Hugs*
I only found out about what happened a couple hours ago. That was just…devastating to hear about. I’ve been pretty close to catatonic as a result of the shock. I can’t imagine what it must be like for someone who lives nearby, or for someone who was actually there. Because that’s terrifying. And it reminds me too much of what happened to a friend of mine back in 2015. Some racist asshole thought that he was an Arab Muslim and pushed him in front of a bus. He died. He was Sikh. Just…being reminded that there are people like the pusher or that driver in Charlottesville is painful. If there’s anything I can do to help, please let me know. I’m happy you and your friends are safe. Also, I read through the rest of your comments before composing this reply, and I just want to say that your friend is both incredibly brave and just awesome all around in the original “awe inspiring” way.
…
Also, my biggest hope is that eventually we’ll declare Neo-Nazi groups and the KKK as terrorist organizations. Because that’s what they are. Terrorists and traitors. People like your friend are heroes of the highest order as a result.
I’m concerned. He really kept one specifically for Joyce? How was this advertised? We’re they texting and Joe said he was giving out donuts?
Joyce saw that even MARY got one, AND she knew that she was on the list.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/chubby/
Despite all their hostility, they’re actually pretty close at times. They traded texts the whole time Joyce was visiting the parents.
They talked about parents, Joyce asked him for advice, I think, because her relationship to her parents got complicated, and Joe’s parents are divorced, which she was worried hers might, too.
Why ae you _concerned_ anyways? It’s a nice gesture. The worst that could be happening is, Joe’s a bit in love with Joyce. Which might be, might not be, guys can do nice things for girls just because they like them and they are friends.
The word of free food in a dorm spreads like wildfire, even without prior advertising.
“Blue reminds me of the color of my eyeballs, so I don’t want to eat my eyes, duh.”
This could be funny or horrifying, it’s your choice. :p
Aaaaaand I just realized this is horrifying, stupid 10 P.M. past me.
Both?
Joe saves her one. A plain one, especially for her food preferences. And the kicker in the last panel.
He seems to be making some steps, little ones, but nice to see.
How would one pick out the rice krispies from a rice krispy treat? That’s all it has.
no there’s also marshmallow
I just consider that as the stuff that holds it together but I see your point.
I have picked the muscle tissue out if it’s calagin matrix.
This can’t be too different.
Not sure if grad student or serial killer
¿Por qué no los dos?
Very sure this comment wins an Internet.
Well, most grad students know how to spell “collagen”, so probably the latter…
(I kid, I kid.)
You say that as if they’re not synonymous. >_>
(I’m kidding, I’m kidding…no grad student has the time to be a serial killer.)
They’re both just one bad day away from becoming the other, honestly.
Coming to STARZ Network: Nathan was a serial killer all his life, until one day, he finds that saving lives is more gratifying than ending them.
THIS FALL, William Fichtner is: SERIAL SAVIOR
Wait, how the fuck did you learn my name? Did I say it here, at some point?
I mean, at that point you might as well just get a jar of marshmallow fluff and a spoon.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
Well that just made me shudder.
Alternate with spoonfuls of Nutella to mix it up a little.
Separate spoons, of course, we’re not too crazy here.
i mean, like, yes
oh no this is really cute
This is a reaction I have often
*plays “Blue Bayou” on the hacked Muzak*
Take the doughnut, Joyce.
Aww
Aw, shit, casual and sincere thoughtfulness. Set phasers to ‘ship’.
Joyce and Joe are too good for each other
My mother in law has the same issue. She won’t eat blue food because she says there are no naturally blue foods in nature. (her refute to blueberries is that they aren’t actually blue on the inside)
Edible flowers are used as garnish in especially fancy places. I have no do By that there’s naturally blue edible flowers.
Also crush blackberries and tell me there’s no blue- or would that not count because the outside doesn’t look blue enough for her…? Or are they too purple?
Either way sprinkles AREN’T dyed with typical foodstuffs. Does she think orange sprinkles are coloured with oranges and red ones with strawberries? Her mind might melt if she’s clued into the beetle thing…
Beetle thing?
A super common red dye (carmine, iirc) is made of crushed beetle shells. It’s in a lot of food and cosmetics, like lipstick. themoreyouknow.jpg
https://www.livescience.com/36292-red-food-dye-bugs-cochineal-carmine.html
Bilberries?
Froberries and Samberries too!
Just so long as we don’t have to deal with any Merryberries, with the little seeds that get stuck in your teeth. I hate fruit with Pippins.
Merryberry wants you to make two dozen identical Boston creme donuts for the technical challenge.
Wait a fuckin’ minute
Blue raspberries! (Really turn much more purple than anything else, though not as far as blackberries get, but still, always fun to point out that yes the flavor is vaguely based on a real plant)
…Oh my God. JOE ACTUALLY MADE AN EFFORT. WHAAAAAAAT
What’s a plain donut taste like. is it plain as in glazed or plain as in a regular soggy soft bit of circular dough
Plain unglazed donuts are delicious, actually. Remember, this isn’t “soggy dough”—this is FRIED dough.
you do make a point. maybe I’m just not that fond of fried dough in the first place. Live your best life joyce.
As a big fan of fried dough from childhood, I agree.
And now I’m craving the fried dough from the street fairs I used to go to as a kid…
This kind of fried dough?
The site’s also got a funnel cake recipe, if you’re actually a fried batter person.
That’s the stuff, and you are a beautiful person for giving me this link.
A Norwegian plain donut tastes good and is a bit moister.
The good taste comes from putting cardamom in the batter.
It looks, to me at least, like a cake one. So yeah, not much going on in flavor there, at least for me.
… There’s a lot more flavour in a plain cake than a plain yeast. Which, without glaze, taste almost exactly like air.
Okay, how I’m curious if yeast donuts are like bread. The longer you let a yeast bred dough rise (within limits) the more flavor it has.
Now I wanna make donuts from scratch as an experiment. For science!
This was my exact question, thank-you. I was like “Plain??? Glazed??? Not Glazed???”
First: Joyce is wrongest, blue food is the best food, no matter what foodstuff it is
Second: Oh good, there’s one girl he regards as a human being. That’s…a start? Better than nothing?
Joyce is the only person he regards as a human being.
I don’t know he seems to have started to sort of regard Danny as a human being on a good day.
She tried to pick the rice krispies out of a rice krispy treat… wouldn’t it just be rice krispy cereal then? Why go through the effort of even buying one?
Picking them out, to leave the yummy marshmallow stuff.
Aww, Joe’s being sweet for once in his life!
Oopsie wrong email
Oh man, what an avatar to get to remind you of that!
Good for Joe, reserving an apology doughnut for Joyce.
As a moderately picky person, I haven’t picked off toppings in a while. Should get around to doing this again.
As an Australian without access to Rice Krispy Treats(tm) I have to ask what exactly is left when you take the Rice Krispies(tm) out?
Treats&trade?
Really? You piece of shit html code. Probably had to be separated.
Treats &trade ?
/sigh
I’m sorry, I shouldn’t laugh.
Unlike dethtoll, I’m not sorry for laughing, I am sorry ’bout the intentional name misspelling yesterday. I expected mild amusement…
Had to double-check what this even referred to. Was there some sort of reference to calling Orion Fury “Onion Furry”, or am I still missing something?
People sometimes misread/misspell Orion Fury, and last time it came up it kinda snowballed, and I thought the callback would be funny, but I guess I called with the wrong knife.
Well the Onion part was serious, Furry part wasn’t. Was doing the new commenting thing on that one.
Treats™
([ampersand]trade[semicolon])
Semicolon!
Willis said above that sometimes there’s marshmallows. My mother used to make them with raisins. So I guess the answer is “it varies”?
The recipe for plain homemade Rice Krispie Treats™ is, according to the Rice Krispie Box™, cereal/marshmallows/butter. You melt the marshmallows and butter and mix the cereal in, then you spread them in a pan of some sort to cool so you can cut them up. So there are always marshmallows, but you can put stuff like raisins/candy/etc. in too if you are a Daring Individual.
Wait wait wait.
Not chocolate?
SERIOUSLY?
Literally the only Rice Crispie based snacks I have EVER seen here (in the UK) were chocolate based! My mind is genuinely blown that there was this conversation going on and NONE of you were imagining a chocolate based cereal snack!
And that came across as way more confrontational than I intended, whoops. I’m stunned at how different our versions are, just seriously boggled at that. Not even mind boggling, just general overall boggling!
huh! i didn’t know there was a version that used chocolate as the “glue.” i’ve had cocoa krispie treats and chocolate-drizzled rice krispie treats and even ones with m&m’s embedded within them, but not one that is entirely cemented together with chocolate. i just have been eating a shit ton of the cereal lately, so i know the recipe from the side of the box. i wonder if it’s different in the UK or whether it’s just a cultural variant you are used to and i am not?
Substitute Cocoa Krispies for Rice Krispies.
Don’t whitewash my bake sale.
Gooey yummy marshmallow.
Sometimes in my most foodly-neurotic days, I would pick out the different colored ones if they were like ‘4th of july’ ones where there would be other colors… or sprinkles. I hate sprinkles(though clearly not an issue here)
We have them here, they’re just called LCMs.
You can make them at home out of rice bubbles too – I’m surprised you never had them at a birthday party as a kid or something.
Ok…well now hopefully you can have a heartfelt chat and somehow figuratively kick Joes misogyny in the ballsack
Except you’ve hold it with bare hands now, Joe.
I sometimes forget that Joyce and Joe text a lot. I imagine that, eating together at lunch at times, and other observations would be how he knew, but still, thoughtful.
Honestly wonder as to the nature of their relationship, potentially, sometimes. Could something be there, or are they just friends learning a little from each other? Also, wonder if Joyce ever tried to collect on Joe’s swear bet now that she will occasionally swear.
I’m going to do a quick comic reaction because C’ville took my soul and rung it dry.
I like Joe here. I think it’s a nice demonstration that is awfulness is a mask of masculinity he feels he needs to wear, one that in truth actively poisons his relationships and who he would be without it.
And that’s the dark reality of toxic masculinity. It’s a cage as much for the person trapped perpetuated by it as by the ones harmed by it. Joe’s life has not been improved by clinging to this idea of being a college aged man his father gave to him. Joe’s friendships have not benefitted from his stag movie understanding of interacting with women.
In this one quiet moment, he does real good. He shows real connection, he repairs a relationship he hurt. He shows a caring sensitive man who could one day be someone really worth dating and getting to know. This is who he could be if he didn’t believe his mask was necessary to who he was, if he wasn’t terrified of the vulnerability of being real.
And breaking out of that is important, especially for high-school and college-aged men. I would even argue that breaking from that toxic masculinity is often a key part of growing up for men who want to not be shitlords.
And it’s hard. The punishments for failing it are hard and brutal and sometimes fatal. There’s only so many times you can watch someone being beat up for being a (slur for gay man) or “joking comments” about raping any man who decides to (slur for sexual organs) out of something. And the deeper you go into the rabbit hole you go, the harder it is back out. The more you have to leave behind in toxic friendships and communities and worldviews.
But it’s necessary. And honestly, it’s necessary for every man to finally wrestle with this demon as soon as they can. Because that toxic masculinity is killing us all.
Kim Jong Un and Donald Trump are both escalating a nuclear confrontation because toxic masculinity tells men that “backing down” and “talking things out” is unmanly. This “tough talk” is helping Trump’s poll numbers because guys associate dangerous violent bluster with “being a man” and “being strong”.
And today, a number of men walked into C’ville ready to kill. At least one of them succeeded in that mission. And every last one of those neo-nazi fucks slid down that rabbit hole of awfulness because of that fear of being “weak”, of being made “less”, of having to change. Of having to grow out of a toxic masculinity that demands only rage and violence and stomping on the lesser to make themselves feel strong.
The man who murdered with his car today in an act of neo-nazi terrorism on behalf of a neo-nazi group in response to nazi-sympathizing GOP leaders who have tried to pass bills to make it legal to drive over protestors. That man?
He was 20. He was college-aged. He was soaking in alt-right and neo-nazi garbage. He went all the way down that rabbit hole.
Could Joe have gone all the way down the rabbit hole? I don’t know. I would like to believe that no he would never. I do at least know that the communities he was parroting and echoing in his rhetoric? Many of their leaders have. At this point most of the “big names” of the MRA and PUA communities are openly neo-nazis or at least are heavily supportive of holocaust deniers and making dog whistles to neo-nazis and white supremacists.
The community Joe was falling in with is a dangerous one. One that has recruited a lot of angry college aged men nervous about the vulnerability of letting a woman say no to them. Of the possibility that they could be rejected. That getting with someone they desire might never happen.
That want an easy cheat mode that doesn’t make them feel like a (slur for gay man) by having to treat their date as an equal human being who has complete autonomy over their body.
And so here. This moment? Joe letting that go? I want to believe this is the real deal. That every step from this one might have backsteps but they will continue to go only in positive directions. That he will learn that the Joe he is in these quiet private moments with Joyce is actually a pretty decent guy. One that women would actually be a lot more interested in being with.
Toxic masculinity is not an easy demon to slay. It will come up a lot and Joe will have a lot more growing to do until he’s as consistently comfortable being Caring Joe as he used to be being Creeper Joe in public, but I believe in him.
I believe in the man he will become after he throws away the mask once and for all.
That was beautifully thought out and written, and I agree wholeheartedly.
Yay for Joe’s personal development!
And *offered hugs* to you, Cerberus. And to all other Americans – your country is a scary place at the moment.
[cw: description of misogynistic violence against a woman]
I wasn’t able to counter-protest since I worked all day, but a group of my friends did. One of them in particular, who is legit the person I want to be when I grow up, was right up there getting into Nazi faces, disrupting their flow, actually managed to interrupt David Duke’s speech from what I heard later.
But when she was face to face with one of those fucking wastes of carbon, for the “crime” of insisting that she was equal to him, he dropped his fucking homemade riot shield and grabbed her by the throat and started choking her. When people got him off her, he just kept smugly saying he’d made his point. That…just says it all, to me. Their point was inciting violence and fear.
Thankfully my mall was spared the violence, but early in the day, we had a dozen or so alt righters march through. They didn’t do anything, just made it clear they were there and could have if they wanted to.
(P.S. She wasn’t hurt, just super pissed off, just for the record. And dude got arrested because a cop was watching, so that’s good.)
THANK GOODNESS she is physically okay and that the assaulter got arrested! I am literally in awe of her bravery.
Me too. Another friend was streaming the whole thing, and within seconds she was back up going “You think that proves anything?” She’s an incredible person.
I feel vaguely guilty for not being there, to be honest, but…oh well.
Oh no. I’m glad she’s safe and the nazi was arrested. And yeah, that is the central thing about nazis. What they want is violence and death. That is their “point” and why assholes fetishizing “defending their free speech rights” miss the damn point entirely.
and asserting, to themselves and anyone else they can, that they do have power. If only the power to hurt.
(ugh. sympathies to you and, of course, her. And I’m glad the cops busted the ******** for it.)
Sending lovely hugs from my fluffy bunnies to you and Cerb.
This is honestly what I was scared about with Trump becoming president. Less the laws he would enact and more the social reaction to it.
I honestly try to ignore the news. It’s too much for me. I can’t change it, and it doesn’t make me a better person to indulge in it and it actively reduces my wellbeing. So I admit to being ignorant to a lot of stuff like this, and that it only occasionally pings on my radar. But despite that, I still earnestly and passionately believe all people should be entitled to a life of freedom from fear, poverty and being second class citizens regardless of the country that life is spent in.
BRAVO. *slow clap*
I saw so much fear and so much hatred all over the news and the internet today; it was literally overwhelming. This is the society we (and by “we” I mean “All U.S.ians who overtly, tacitly, or by omission/inaction have participated in this state of affairs”) have created. A U.S. in which people are openly wishing violent death on others and *acting on that wish.* A U.S. in which people *honestly* believe that having paler skin makes you not only superior but also gives you carte blanche to control and kill others. A U.S. in which a young man who can’t even legally drink alcohol absorbed so much hatred and fear that he committed murder in the name of his twisted Nazi ideology.
And we’ve got a president who “hand-waves” it. Instead of giving those of us who need it the catharisis of naming this fear, hatred, and toxic masculinity for what it is, he used dismissive language that further validated those on their way down that rabbit hole.
As flawed as Joe is, I hope the path he seems to be taking is the path many other scared and angry young men in this country will choose. You are 100% – fighting toxic masculinity is hard, and it’s harder when we currently have so many people in positions of power who epitomize it.
*Offers virtual donut of choice, with or without sprinkles*
I’m honestly terrified ninety percent of the time these days and am extremely grateful to my anti-anxiety medication. It’s a scary time we’re all trapped in.
And it’ll be even scarier going forward. The students I’ll be teaching next year are going to be right in the target sights of these neo-nazis and it’s going to be a lot of work keeping them safe.
i wonder if it’s helped Joe to have someone in his circle who is a) a woman b) his age c) someone he no longer feels any pressure to fuck, because of their disastrous date
i mean, with the start they had, i’m surprised he was willing to talk to her again at all (or her to him). but since they’re talking, they almost seem like siblings who don’t see eye to eye but still look out for each other.
it’s never a woman’s responsibility to be an example of ‘hey woman are people too, ya dingus’ for a man’s character growth, but . . it kinda seems that’s what’s happened here, and i’m surpised to be glad for it. as long as it doesn’t become Joyce’s Job to Reform The Well-meaning Man, anyway 😛
<3333
When was all of this? I had to look up what anyone was even talking about.
*applauds* Thank you for writing this, Cerberus–a thoughtful and, I think, realistic analysis of the broader situation.
And I gotta say, regarding the comic, it is really heartwarming to see Joe realize that his past actions have hurt people and take a first step towards righting those wrongs.
I’m really proud of him. It’s hard to throw off toxic masculinity. Necessary but hard.
Your experience of male socialization is largely inconsistent with mine. None of the things you mentioned are due to “toxic masculinity”.
Thatcher declared war on Argentina, and queens such as Catherine the Great or Queen Victoria have launched lots of offensive war. Wars are typically launched for personal political gain and trying to overanalyze this differently from an ideological lens is unlikely to give you much.
Persecutions of are hardly due to “toxic masculinity either”. They are due to ideology and tribalism. Homophobia in the present-day US is mainly correlated to Christianity and mostly uncorrelated to anything else. Most Romans would have far more of what you call “toxic masculinity”, yet they viewed homosexual behaviour as perfectly normal.
Pretty much every claim you make can be shown to have a clear counterexample with just a few minutes of critical research. I would very strongly advise researching any claim you make, especially if they are of the “everyone I don’t like has the same ideology” kind which Americans tend to be very quick to make, sadly.
Oh, goody.
Were you socialized by the Romans?
I don’t think anyone is blaming toxic masculinity for all the ills and problems of society, but it is certainly a large contributing force, especially in the United States right now, where this comic takes place. Pointing to other cultures and saying they didn’t experience toxic masculinity isn’t helpful to this discussion. The other thing to keep in mind is that there is a lot of overlap between people who were raised to believe in toxic masculinity as the only way to show your manliness and those who find themselves in neo-nazi groups.
And I would argue that toxic masculinity requires its own ideology and tribalism. Your personal experience may not correlate with this, but it is very real in many parts of North America. Just because you haven’t personally experienced doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and isn’t influencing other people.
One final point – you seem to be making the exact argument you’re warning other people against making, sadly, by criticizing both “Christianity” and “Americans” as if they all have the same ideology.
Toxic masculinity isn’t a constant of physics. It shows up in different ways from one culture to another.
At the risk of being rude, I don’t think you understand what toxic masculinity is. If that is the case, here is an ok summary: https://femmagazine.com/feminim-101-what-is-toxic-masculinity/
Toxic masculinity is not nor should ever be seen as masculinity or maleness. It is a toxic mass consuming masculinity from the inside. A mythology that harms young men growing up making them feel that the only way to avoid getting backlash is to perform a terrible pantomime of “masculinity” defined entirely by avoiding the feminine and strict controls on allowed expressions of behavior.
Men are not the problem. Men are suffering in these systems. I would argue that the ones most in this often racist, sexist, homophobic hell are suffering a lot, always worried that the slightest lack of violent response, of performed hypermasculinity as defined by this cult will see them treated as if they were a woman and hurt.
It’s something I was beat for a lot growing up.
As such I learned its ways one bruise at a time.
Toxic masculinity for me in its short form is, “When men are pressured to be violent assholes who dominate and conquer with a loathing of anything which doesn’t fit a proud warrior ethos.” In short, whenever you’re pressured to act like a Klingon. It’s something I’d argue is culturally ingrained in militarism that trickled down into male culture as a whole versus the opposite but that’s a chicken or egg thing as this is about everything from the Spartans to the Romans to the Samurai and beyond.
Honestly, once you strip away the toxic variety, what sort of masculinity is even left? If that’s all there is, is masculinity even a meaningful concept?
The following:
Dressing classily
Being polite
Defending people from assholes as needed
In general, being what is typically referred to as a gentleman.
That’s basically the stuff I associate with masculinity.
I will also add
• [the option to have] a kickass beard
• [the possibility of being] tall and strong
• [perhaps having] a deep booming voice
I included the brackets because I’m not trying to say that these are what masculinity has to mean for anybody else, but they’re part of what it means to me personally.
And since “tall and strong” is a mere attribute of the body, I’m also gonna add “choosing to use one’s size and strength to help others when possible, and take care not to use them in ways that hurt others.”
Or, as Shakespeare put it, “O, it is excellent to have a giant’s strength; but it is tyrannous to use it like a giant.”
For a good example of non-Toxic masculinity, I would like to recommend the webcomic “Manly Guys Doing Manly Things” by Kelly Turnbull aka Coelesquid, in particular the main male character, who is heavily based on the cartoonist’s father with a palette swap. (Considering that Kelly Turnbull herself is this awesome punk rock looking motorcyclist from Manitoba, married to an Indie circuit professional wrestler giant of a man, is the daughter of a hardworking grizzly outdoorsman who I can only assume was either a lumberjack or a chemical processing plant foreman, and regularly attends Mad Max-style post-appocolypse conventions, I will assume she knows how non-toxic masculinity works)
The way I think of it: toxic masculinity is like red apples. Someone talking about red apples isn’t saying that all apples are red. If they don’t like red apples, they might still like green apples!
Adjectives, how do they work…. 😉
Cerberus isn’t saying that all war is due to toxic masculinity. She’s saying this confrontation between Trump and Kim is due to toxic masculinity.
I don’t know enough of North Korean culture to know if it’s true on that side. But is really appears true on this side.
It’s easy to over-generalize what someone says, and then argue that it’s not true in all cases, and then tell them to shut up. But it’s also not good argument on your part.
No… you’re just wrong. Homophobia in the U.S. is related to Christianity, but it’s also very strongly related to gender. In the U.S., women consistently support gay marriage at higher rates than men in polls, even though women regularly attend religious services at higher rates than men. (Both of these gender gaps are significantly smaller or nonexistent for millennials, and both are dropping rapidly overall.) Additionally, American Catholics, despite the fact that their sect theoretically demands strict adherence to social norms — including homophobia — support gay marriage at relatively high rates. Evangelical and fundamentalist Protestant Christians oppose gay marriage at very high rates, but they are also among the most blatantly patriarchal groups in the country and broadly believe that men should lead the house and the country and women should follow. Consider the possibility that these two facts might be connected — that evangelical Christian men might have been raised to feel that they have to prove their manhood through domination, and that homophobia might be a result of that.
Consider the possibility that the evangelical conception of masculinity could accurately be called ‘toxic.’
Also, the Romans were blatantly homophobic — their view of masculinity led them to believe that being penetrated made you weak and easily dominated. You may be thinking of the ancient Greeks, who believed in extreme masculinity but were accepting of homosexuality, though they frequently practiced it in the form of pederasty.
And regarding your opinions on war… the U.S. has very little to gain from a war with North Korea. It would be a disaster for our relations with China and would likely be a tremendously bloody affair that would decimate portions of South Korea and much of the NK civilian population. Trump is gunning for war because he wants to believe that, to quote his Tweet on the matter, “there will never be a time that we are not the most powerful nation in the world!” Hypernationalists like our president and many of his supporters try to demonstrate their strength through the strength of their country, even when it gets people killed.
Lastly, don’t be a patronizing ass.
Cerberus, thank you. Gestures of support. I’ve been watching the whole Charlottesville debacle play out and our president talk like “well both sides, you know” and have told several people to stop treating it like it’s some kind of spacial anomaly from Star Trek. It’s embedded in our culture and needs to be stomped out now.
One person, I simply had to tell to bugger off. Can’t be my friend if you make excuses for Nazis. I didn’t used to need a rule for that but now it’s in the book.
I told a bunch of college students recently; “Break this cage now, it’s harder later.”
An excellent analysis of toxic masculinity. I disagree with one minor but important point. The Charlottesville neo-Nazis are not as afraid of looking weak as they are afraid of losing power. They have realized that in their lifetime they will lose enough societal power that they will start being treated half as badly as they treat everyone else. To them that is a terrifying concept. They are trying desperately to assert their power and hold everyone else down. This is likely to get worse before it gets better, but that means they are losing.
Its only when the empire’s breaking that you see their teeth – Al Stewart, Rain Barrel
Indeed. Though I would argue that to a neo-nazi, losing the slightest bit of power in any arena is interpreted as being made “weak”. Which is why a lot of the narratives surrounding other races are full of rage at them somehow “stealing their power” and now “running rampant”. Which is why it’s important to them to march in the streets and let folks know they can kill them at any point.
Cerberus, I’m writing this to agree with you, for others reading the thread.
I was thinking this morning about a guy who lives down the street from me, who I heard tell a young boy who was upset after getting in a physical struggle with a girl over a toy: “If you get beat up by a girl, you get no sympathy from me.”
That’s a root of toxic masculinity, right there. It’s bad enough on the surface: boys and girls are different, boys should be stronger.
Unpack it deeper, and it gets worse. If a boy takes damage from a girl, it is now his job to win a fight with her, to prove he didn’t get beaten up.
If a woman dares to do anything which a man feels as an injury, she must be injured far worse, by him, in order to put things right.
If anyone doubts the validity and applicability of the phrase “toxic masculinity” – well, it’s exactly the right phrase to describe the belief “Because I’m a man, if I feel hurt by a woman, I have to destroy her.”
And it starts with “If you get beat up by a girl, you get no sympathy” in response to a kid being upset because he was shoved by another kid.
That reminds me of “first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” I forget where it’s from.
What happened in Charlottesville has nothing to do with masculinity and everything to do with racism. By saying that those white supremacists were motivated by “trying to look manly” and not the actual cause is really gross. They don’t want to be “made less” and “changed” by people of color and jewish people. You saying that this all stems from misogyny and not racism alleviates white women from their place in white supremacy as well. Also, Joe is literally Jewish lol. Why the HELL would he be associating himself with nazis. Please don’t downplay this ugly event for the sake of a nonexistent point. Sorry for being rude but this personally affects me as a person of color only 30 mins away from Charlottesville. This is not a topic people should be getting mixed up about.
Masculinity’s all tied up in the alt-right though. It was an overwhelmingly male crowd, from what I can tell. The alt-right’s favorite insult, “cuck”, is all tied into both masculinity and race. There are many ways into that movement, but it turns into a toxic stew of all kinds of bigotry.
This particular outbreak was triggered by and focused on race, but the movement is broader.
Good point that Joe is Jewish though. Even if he had headed down the MRA path, that likely would have helped keep him from getting caught up in the larger movement.
Than again, isn’t one of the alt-right’s leaders an (openly) gay homophobe? And it’s not like anti-Semitic Jewish people are entirely unknown.
Yeah, I think Joe being Jewish would have largely saved him from falling all the way down the hole. As would his tendency to empathy when no one is watching.
And to bleepbloop, you’re right that the event was a racist event first and foremost and racial violence was their first and strongest desire and that I should have focused that in my comment. I was only trying to talk about the recruitment I’ve seen in misogynist spaces where young white men are recruited with misogyny and then indoctrinated with racism, often intertwining racist fears with sexual fears (like the often used racist bugaboo of the “swarthy” horde coming and taking all the white women).
That all said, that doesn’t discount that my words likely had an effect of minimizing the role racism played and for that I apologize to you.
Hey Cerberus, maybe I’m reading too much into this, but was that “should have” a “sorry I forgot about that” or a “god, how could I be so stupid…” ? Because one of those is healthy and one isn’t 😉
Wish I could type more but I’m out today and mobile Firefox is still flaky on this site
Ugh, I finally read an article about the thing and… Wow. Ugh. I don’t even words.
And the fuckers, in between their giant piles of racism, actually used the word patriarchal. Ugh. I don’t want to even quote it, it’s so gross (and Firefox might lose my comment in switching tabs anyways), but it was an article on The Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/13/charlottesville-james-fields-charged-with-was-pictured-at-neo-nazi-rally-vanguard-america was the article I read, about the murderer and the nazi group/cult he was in.
The sad thing is, I was surprised to hear he’s being charged with murder. That shouldn’t be surprising. But these days it is.
*appropriate gestures of support* Thank you for posting folks. C*ville is foremost in a lot of minds right now. In my own house, it is mostly the focus of sadness and anger and well, not disbelief – we believe it, hell, we kind of expected something like this to happen eventually. 45 has disappointed us all again by being himself. If our leaders do not do something about the problem, they become part of the problem.
The sad thing is that it will get worse. I am sitting in my house wondering how we are going to get people to safety. Because that’s my main thought now – people I care for are going to be targets that will not be safe in this country. Not only will we need to fight back, but likely we will need to get the most vulnerable to safety somehow. 🙁
I like to picture Joe’s journey out of toxic masculinity kind of like home finding a way out of a long dark shadowy forest full of vines, thorns, and all sorts of planty nastiness. He wants to get out (I think he has since he first started texting Joyce and thus started communicating with her as an equal instead of a foreign object) but he’s lost and doesn’t know how to get out. He has no path. Then he sees one (Joyce points it out) and tries to get there but keeps getting stuck, tangled, or tripped. Then, with Danny’s help and prompting, he sets up the apology donut stand and like that he’s been pushed onto the path out of the forest. It’s a long path, filled with obstacles, but it’s a path nonetheless. Will he stumble, trip, fall, and sometimes get turned around or stopped? Yes. But has my hope in Joe, and my belief that he’ll get back up and push on through that path, been restored? Hell yes it has.
I’m always extra glad to see you here after…well, the next awful thing has just happened. All this awful is frighteningly regular and every now and then I think about you and hope that you’re doing ok. I love your voice and your bravery and your strong sense of justice. You give me a lot of hope just knowing that someone like you exists, and seeing you here making your comments as usual…it makes me feel like you’re beating the awful, sort of. I don’t know if I’m making any sense. *shrugs* *offered virtual hugs*
Also
*hugs offered*
I only learned about what happened at Charlottesville about six hours ago. And since then I’ve been sort of petrified from shock. Because it’s disturbing. It’s horrifying. And it’s all to familiar. It brought to mind various events of history for me, from Woodrow Wilson having feminist protesters arrested during WW1, to police dogs and fire hoses being used on civil rights marchers in the 60s, to riots in the 80s, to every case of lynching, and to one of my best friends being pushed in front of a bus in 2015 because some asshole thought that “turban” equaled “Muslim” and thought that fact made it ok to get a Sikh killed. So, I’ve been scared. Not for myself, because I’m an unlikely target do to white cis-male privilege, but because my remaining friends and current partner could easily become targets for this type of hate. I hope you, your loved ones, and your kids can find a way to stay safe in these dark times. And, if it’s ok with you, I’d like to end this comment with a quote. Whenever I’m at my most scared, my most hopeless, my most defeated these words always help me:
“But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine all the clearer.”-Samwise Gamgee, The Lord of the Rings: The Twin Towers.
As a guy who grew up with too much of that nonsense I wholeheartedly agree with all of that (except how much initiative Un has in leading North Korea, I think he’s a near powerless figurehead)
My parents refuse to eat blue foods.
Your parents should discover the majesty of blue raspberry flavour stuff.
All blue foods, or just stuff that’s dyed blue?
Pain, suffering, madness. I just wanna post lightheartedness, with the odd civil discourse that can occur from people being different. It’s a challenge, and I don’t think I can understand it all, let alone accept that it’s happening. I’m safe, and it hurts that there are people out there that can’t say that.
Heathen! Discarding blue sprinkles like a monster.
I think Joe and Joyce could be really good for each other. I really want to see them slowly and healthily develop a healthy supportive relationship where they can explore the people they’re becoming. And I don’t mean a romantic one- although I think the potential is there, I just want that strong, supportive relationship, regardless of anything more.
Although I think the fact that Joe has totally written Joyce off for now is a very promising beginning. It’s allowing them this closeness that is a healthy foundation for more.
I’m from Australia and have never heard of a cake donut? Is it a cake in the shape of a donut or cake in the shape of a donut and deep fried?
A doughnut made with a different sort of flour, so it’s denser and more cake-like.
You know how (yeast) raised doughnuts have a pastry-ish consistency? Cake doughnuts, per the name, are closer to that (but not quite).
http://www.bonappetit .com/entertaining-style/trends-news/article/difference-between-cake-yeast-doughnut
(not sure if comments with links are screened, but I added a space.)
Now, for me, the strangeness – as I first noted a couple of pages/strips back – is that I’d never, until this storyline, heard of “yeast” doughnuts. Cake donuts, yes; “raised” doughnuts, yes. But never “yeast” or “yeast-raised”, just “raised.” I suspect it may be a regionalism, like soda vs. pop. (I’m in the Pacific NW.)
Same here, (same region, Pac NW). Cake and Raised. Cake donuts are… well, standard donuts. And raised donuts are… the other standard donuts.
Krispy Kreme are just not donuts. Henry’s for the win!!!
Henry’s high five!! They are the best.
Links are only screened if you have more than one.
Half my subscriptions on YouTube are from Australia, so I’m used to folks from there being much less…non-vulgar about questions like this.
Cake donuts are like real donuts, except better.
to me, sprinkles just feel like lies. they don’t even taste like sugar, just food coloring and wax. bluhhhh.
those colored sugar crystals you see in cheapo cake decorating shaker sets, or occasionally on sugar cookies? much better <3
Now that you mention it, sprinkles always did have a waxy texture to them.
I think they literally have wax (or used to) so as to not melt on any contact, a la chocolate shavings.
how have she survived this long?
atlest out of home.
seriously she is the has the biggest food picking i have ever seen…even in fiction
She’s not. She eats a wide variety of foods just so long as they don’t touch. That’s not so severe. There are people in this world whose diet is limited to under 20 items. That’s severe enough to merit therapy. (And the person you see is usually a speech language pathologist, for some reason.)
my comment down there was meant to reply to this one
When Joe tries to be nice, he actually is a nice guy. It’s a pity he still has to shake off all that toxic masculinity crap.
Dammit, I don’t care how adorable these two are and how well their growth arcs compliment each other, Joyrathy>Joece.
I will pay you ten whole monopoly dollars if you teach me a way to remove those ship names from my brain.
*hands 3-I a bone saw and a large spoon*
Only way.
Or just don’t think about it for a really long time, and you’ll probably forget.
I don’t actually have any monopoly money.
Both Joyce and Dorothy are canonically straight, I believe
They’re too damn cute together, though! They are each other’s exception! I WILL NEVER SURRENDER THIS SHIP! MAN THE BILGE PUMP AND LAY TAR ON THOSE CRACKS, BOYS!
You can ship platonically instead of romantically?
I don’t see why not.
Let me rephrase; my initial question above was more of a “suggestion”-type question, as in “if both Joyce and Dorothy are canonically straight, you can ship them platonically instead of romantically”.
You can, and people do. For instance, I ship Otacon and Snake as a platonic married pair, and you can’t convince me otherwise
Too late, JoJo is a thing and its happening
What a bizarre adventure though
I’ve always thought that one of the best things that could happen to both is that have a nice, normal date, a date where marriage and sexy times is of the table (but can be discussed) where they just enjoy each others company and then depart at the end of the night
If it goes well maybe have another date but really just so it might help Joyce recover and that Joe can see theres more to girls then just whats between their legs
Damn. Too late to go get donuts except for that one place that’s very far from home. Already planning tomorrow’s order. Hmmmm…. donuts. Blueberry. Chocolate cake. Yessssss
Joe, if you were like this more often you’d be so much better at actually having friends and partners.
I mean, she does not lead a hunter-gatherer’s lifestyle where you either eat what you have or don’t eat. She lives in a modern city where she can actually pick and choose what she eats, and worst case scenario she just reduces her portion of food by picking out parts of it she can’t eat.
I have a food-pickiness almost equal to Joyce’s, even if in a slightly different form, and honestly? The biggest obstacle to not even noticing that it’s something unusual is people who make a big deal out of it.
Same. I’m pretty picky. If there’s two different textures in my mouth (like with mixing food or any kind of soup or stew) it’s like my brain goes ‘Hmmm, it’s not thing X and it’s not thing Y….I dunno what it is, out it goes’ and it sets off my gag reflex.
So, anyway Joe, how DID you rate her before?
She was a 4, with potential to be ‘upgraded’ to a ten by his dick.
I’m sorry, but the word “dick” adjacent to your username just doesn’t seem right, although I can’t pinpoint exactly why.
I ship the hell outta those two. And I don’t normally ship.
Sprinkles, blech.
Good thing I had some ice cream a bit ago, or I’d be probably be wanting a double chocolate donut because of this.
If you pick all the rice krispies from a rice krispy treat what is left though? :I
According to Willis, marshmallow.
Sure, if you just want tiny little web-like strands of the stuff.
Did she really try doing that? Wow, what a freak…
You managed to go under the radar for this long, but I spotted you.
Assuming, of course, “freak” is frowned upon, ’round these parts.
On Charlotville and toxic masculinity and all: https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/95731167/former-nz-rugby-player-catches-rogue-us-driver-at-charlottesville-rally
He was an ok player (not super rugby level) but pretty obviously smart and a decent person
“Hope” for Joe. As if the dude was ever potentially a totally lost cause.
Give the poor guy a break. He didn’t RAPE anybody…
He did once say that “alcohol helps facilitate sex”, which is…yeah. Drunk consent ain’t consent.
To be fair, he was talking about himself too, and we know it was just bravado at this point, since he never actually had a threesome. Making up stories about dubious consent is still pretty disgusting though.
Worse than that was when he told Joyce:
“[Having sex with] you? Heck no! A drunker version of you, maybe.”
Though to be fair to Joe, he did follow that with “and an insane version of me”.
Which kind of shifts it from the “I’d get you drunk to have sex with you” to “If our judgment was really screwed up”.
Different rules apply to different people, for example look how Ruth treated Billie (stalking, breaking and entering, mental abuse, physical abuse, sexual assault etc) but its ok now
How Ruth and Billie’s relationship started was Not Okay, I believe that has been pretty clear.
That is correct however Joe is being hated on for what hes said in the past, which may or may not be true, whereas the present relationship of Ruth and Billie is given a pass (by the posters on this board) even though Ruths behavior was/is much worse than Joes ever was
…because Billie and Ruth’s relationship NOW is fine. Nobody gives Ruth a pass on how shitty she USED to be.
Joe being a genuinely good dude NOW does not magically erase the shittiness of his behavior in the past.
And Joe is only marginally becoming a genuinely good dude as of today and he wasn’t doing so hot earlier in the day either. Yeah, we’re still “hating” on Joe for what he’s said in the past, because it fits the same pattern we’ve seen up to his interactions with Rachel earlier today. If this is Joe’s turn around point, then it’s not equivalent to Ruth and Billie today, but when they first formed their Sexy Lesbian Suicide Pact. And even then Ruth’d shown far more self-awareness of her issues than Joe has of his.
Not to mention that plenty of people are showing cautious optimism and praising every hint of decent behavior from Joe.
As for “may or may not be true”, part of the tragedy of Joe is that he’s compelled to pretend to live up to this toxic masculine standard, even when he really isn’t doing all of it.
I don’t know about that, its only been a short couple of weeks interspersed with hospital stays. We’ve also seen Ruth maybe, sort of, wanting to revert back to her old ways (also may have been joking) so I’m thinking that its too soon to say its fine now
Which is why people still bring that up.
The change in Joe’s behavior is even more recent. There’s no telling whether it will stick at all, or how often or badly he’ll backslide on the way. Same goes for Ruth.
My main point is that Joe isn’t getting judged on a double standard. There just haven’t been as many people who tried to downplay the harm caused by Ruth’s past behavior.
People expressing how much Joe’s behavior bothered them have very frequently gotten responses about how they’re “making a big deal out of nothing” or “being melodramatic”. This rightly makes people upset, and wrongly means people have to explain, over and over, how and why Joe’s behavior was harmful.
Ruth doesn’t seem to get that kind of defender saying her bullying, threats, and intimidation were totally okay from day one (or at least not as many). Part of that is because her actions were more explicitly, obviously harmful. Not many people would deny that physically assaulting someone and then kissing them isn’t something worth getting upset about.
I compare this to the treatment Danny got when he was a straight white male and then what happened after he became attracted to Ethan
The criticism of Danny died out very quickly yet the main change (at the time) was that he was interested in a guy
Sometimes I get the feeling that for some posters on here (not saying you) the characters almost become proxies for some of the ills happening in the USA
This is exactly the kind of shit I’m talking about.
This complete, stubborn inability to believe that people who see a problem with Joe’s behavior actually have a problem with Joe’s behavior.
The exact same bullshit happens when women complain about similar behavior in real life. It gets dismissed, or downplayed as just “boys being boys”.
But yes, that IS part of what’s happening here. People have been watching harmful, dangerous behavior and saying “oh well, it doesn’t seem that bad from where I’M standing, I don’t see what everyone’s so worked up about…”
I’m not saying Joe shouldn’t or shouldn’t get flak for his behaviour (he should because some of it has not been good) I’m saying that different standards are at play
Which is understandable when you compare it groups but isn’t fair when its compared to individuals
And I’m saying different standards are not at play.
If people denied Ruth’s past behavior was harmful as often as they did Joe’s, it would get the same push-back.
The reason the pushback isn’t is because the denial isn’t there.
Ok maybe not different standards but how quickly a character can be “forgiven” is dependent on factors such gender
As an example how long did it take for Hank to finally win over the message boards (and I’d bet theres some just waiting for him to revert to type) even though he was in a very difficult situation himself
Certainly not as long as it took Ruth even though Ruths transgressions were certainly worse than Joes or Hanks
Exactly what reason did anyone have to trust that Hank wasn’t a bigot? Almost every person who expected him to react badly was basing that on their personal experience with bigoted parents. And every time he defied those expectations, tons of commenters were joyfully applauding that he had.
If people still think Hank is a horrible person (some do, for having been a bigot so long, and enabled so much bigotry around him), that doesn’t make him any different from Ruth. There’s still people who think of Ruth as an abusive monster. There’s people who still think Joyce is an asshole, and only reluctantly tolerate her.
Joe isn’t getting harsher treatment. Neither is Hank.
Danny actually was, but much of that seemed to be the result of his portrayal in It’s Walky, not due to some ridiculous bias against men.
I appreciate your replies and while I may not agree with all of them I’ve enjoyed reading them but I don’t think I’m going to be able to convince you of my pov and vice versa but it has made my work day go that little bit faster so thanks
“He didn’t RAPE anybody” is a hell of a low bar. :/ Especially for not being satisfied with cautious optimism.
Okay, that was genuinely sweet and a wonderful act of friendship on Joe’s part. He’s a guy with hidden depths, even though I suspect that he’s afraid of them.
Joyce, meanwhile, seems to be fighting an internal battle. She wants that donut. She needs that donut but she also doesn’t want to even tangentially admit to her neuroses in front of Joe. I suspect that she’s trying to work out if he’s indirectly mocking her but I don’t think so.
Where exactly was he keeping that donut is what I want to know.
pocket dimension
oh no this is so cute oh no oh no
Awwwww. <3
Someone once told my friend that blue M&Ms are toxic, so now she picks those out and shoves all the rest into her mouth in handfuls lol.
Well, the blue mascot apparently represents Almond M&Ms, and a variety of almond is considered a bad sign, for some reason I can never find an answer to. So, I guess the person who told your friend wasn’t a complete liar?
Some varieties of almonds (bitter almonds) contain amygdalin, which converts to cyanide in…a lot of different situations, actually. The lethal dose is actually pretty low – as few as 50 or so almonds can be lethal for an adult, or 5 for a child.
Bitter almonds are not cultivated for human consumption, at least not on any scale, and sweet almonds are safe.
The friendship of these two was one of the best things of Roomies and IW. They are such great foils for each other’s worst flaws that their rough edges just fit perfectly with one another. It’s really good to see that developing in DoA too. In fact, I’d say that Joyce + Joe BFFs is the only “ship” I care for being imported from previous stories.
Aww, that’s sweet.
Tangential observation: Danny isn’t in today’s strip, but without him, I don’t think this exchange happens. More Good Egg points for him.
It suddenly strikes me that I should have had some writing prepared, before I opened my FictionPress and FanFiction accounts. Now I’m left wondering what sort of things to write…
Well, I once wrote a series of fanfics about Levi from Attack on Titan and Akuma from Street Fighter having a master/slave relationship and eating various pies. So, it shouldn’t be too hard to come up with something.
Kinky
The first chapter was. After that, it sorta drifted off into food porn. It was also written out of spite for a guy I knew, who loves Akuma for the same reasons he hates Levi, so I took it down.
goddangit these two are too cute together – its like the best friend/antagonist relationship in the series and I kinda love it
To… to what end are you picking rice krispies out of the treat
Joyce is secretly a malicious internet troll, and her behavior sometimes bleeds into her offline life.
If I had to make a guess, I’d say her troll handle is “BlueSpike”.
To eat the marshmallow goop on its own.
I think its sweet that Joe specifically saved a plain donut for Joyce because he paid enough attention to her preferences to know she prefers not to have different things touch. However if he knew her little better he would know its sort of punishing Joyce for her pickiness by taking away the best parts. Note Joyce did not order a cheese pizza but a sausage pizza with the sausage on the side. She wanted the sausage. Basically A grade friending would likely be to bring her a paper plate with her donut and A+ friending would be to separate it for her or in Joes case since he’s providing the donuts spring for a shaker of sprinkles.
I think I officially ship it.
God (if there is one xD) save me I ship it.
two “quiet” strips in a row? – prepare for wacky hi-jinks in the offing
Dammit Willis, don’t you make me start feeling for Joe like he’s an actual human again.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/thoughtful-2/
Hopefully Joyce and Joe never change
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/chubby/
I guess we’ve forgotten all about this?