Judging from in-universe reactions, Joe is exceedingly attractive on a purely physical level, and very, very good at sex. There are men who will sleep with a woman because of such assets and abilities, despite her being an objectively terrible person. I’d say the rational, and even properly ‘feminist’ answer would be that women, being no better than men at the scale of individuals, aren’t above doing the same thing.
Pretty much. I have nothing against Roz sleeping with whoever she wants. I just snicker at the irony that the most feminist character on the cast willingly and happily slept with the biggest sexist.
See, the “good at sex” thing confuses me. Generally that involves paying attention to your partners’ wants, needs and feelings and communicating with them. Joe isn’t known for any of that.
The only thing we’ve seen is Roz and Joe and a remark about “If you want your underwear back you know where to find it”. The smiles indicate a good time.
I thought keeping your mouth shut was usually detrimental in sexy fun times, especially with ladies.
Seriously, vibrators can go for a long time. Surely most people want so much more than that from a partner? Or am I just choosier than most?
But *why* did Roz sleep with Joe? Because she wanted to have sex with *Joe* or because she wanted to make a sex tape to put on the internet and she knew Joe would (1) agree to being taped and (2) not get angry when the tape was made public? And (3) when you’re making a porn video, you want your actors to be as attractive as possible.
For Roz’s purposes, Joe was not only the obvious choice, he might have been the only choice.
How so? Both Roz and Joe get what they want when she cannot find better. Sometimes you don’t have the finest food in the fridge and pizza is fine.
Also, about your comment earlier, I don’t see the irony about feminist women sleeping with whoever they want, sexist pigs included. You cannot judge one person’s choices in sexual partners, that’s the golden road to direct slutshaming.
If Roz slept with the most reactionary Republic man, she would still be feminist and respectful towards herself.
@Cauchemar
And I frankly can’t see how YOU can’t see Irony in this. It’s basically like… a black man and a KKK member having a great time at barbecue XD It’s Mario and Bowser having a beer together. I know I’m exaggerating but it’s still Just That Weird.
I’m not denying Roz’s feminism. I just find this particular “sleeping arrangement” to be hilarious.
Hell, she probably had the password just given to her. He threw Raidah a link and a password just for spending five seconds in his presence. So, it wouldn’t be that out of character for him to hand it out to women he sleeps with as well.
May every girl he tries to hook up with between now and graduation throw that list in his face and may his future employers and friends find that list and never let him live it down.
Yeah but you’ve got to assume that other people have written angry blogs about it by now.
We’re in that weird transitional period where stuff lasts forever but not everyone has something stupid from when they were a teenager in their past under their real name. So those who do are unemployable.
At least until the domain gets bought out by a domain squatter who puts up a robots.txt file. I can’t even look up my old site anymore because my old host decided to let the domain go and it got snatched up by a domain squatter.
Idk, Mike hasn’t been connected with this storyline and has no reason to have Joe on his radar, has he? I like Rachel or Raidah much better for the anonymous do-gooder.
Mike is a teenage edgelord, but tearing people down is how he rolls. I could see him doing this. It’s not that he’s being helpful, he just likes to fuck with people and use their own personas against them.
Is it finally time for Joe’s stupid Bro Mask to finally shatter and he has to start dealing with reality? I hope so, I’ve liked the glimpses of actual Joe we’ve seen behind his persona.
Me too..
I’m thinking he started this as just what-the-heck silliness, but Joe’s reaction is too delicious: has he ever been able to mess with Joe’s head like this?
That is precisely the level of seriousness this deserves, well done Danny.
Oh fucking NO, Joe, now women can SEE you being disgusting about them behind their backs, whatever will you do? It’s not like you can, idk, just STOP being disgusting about them
What is this s-word you are using? I do not understand. Surely being gross is like a natural disaster, completely organically formed and impossible to stop. Just a “natural” part of life.
Right? Like, everyone does it, it’s totally natural to reduce everyone around you to an absolute numerical value representing how fuckable you find them, disregarding any other facets of their humanity
Nature/Nurture? I read his reaction in the first panel as being ‘what have I wrought’, but then I’m in the camp of ‘wanting to like Joe and hope he grows as a person here’.
Also @ Shiro, I’d like to make a serious, yet lighthearted, reply to your comment, but I have a feeling that my intent can’t be properly transmitted without a wall of text, owing to the fact that keeping it brief gives it a nice punch, but can be misconstrued quite easily to those that don’t have a deep understanding of the workings of my mind, and I’d rather not deal with another ban. That wasn’t fun.
Given the way Joe brings it up constantly, they could ALWAYS see it. Sadly, they don’t have to have met him to know about it now since he would automatically bring it up in their presence.
I think what’s saddest is he kept on bringing it up but in one-on-one contexts where each person felt alone and impotent in their rage at him (see Dorothy just being exasperated because she’s dealt with him for multiple years) and socially discouraged from blowing up at him.
And he’s taken advantage of that to keep doing his thing.
But this is wide-spread. This is everyone and this is others seeing that others are also recognizing that he’s a gross asshole. And that’s the avalanche where finally the tide of respectability can change and it can be justified and supported to express your anger at being mistreated.
And that’s what he’s scared of. It’s not just one woman going “ugh”. It’s all the women and they are talking to each other and they’re not going to forget or let him blow this off like they are over-reacting.
I suppose the real question is who spread it to everyone in the first place.
Actually no, the real question is how many weeks of comics is it gonna take for Joe to realize that the problem isn’t that the list got out, it’s that he thinks making one is okay in the first place. Television douchebags who rate women aren’t the type of people to aspire to be Joseph
I think it’s pretty obvious it was Rachel. She was disgusted with the idea when he brought it up and he offered her his RSS feed, so it’s highly likely her.
It’s possible we didn’t see all the conversation and he did offer it. Raidah seemed disgusted but not like she’d care enough to expose it. Rachel seems the likliest option.
All that does though is establish that he has a habit of giving this information out with little prompting. Aside from being a little creeped out by it she didn’t really seem outraged enough to want to expose him. He’s also friends with her boyfriend and I don’t see her wanting to potentially cause a conflict with him if it got back to her that she’s the one who leaked this information. Even if it’s doubtful Jacob would care it still comes across as something that could stir up unnecessary drama in her life.
It could easily be Rachel, but I think Raidah is a possibility as well, since we know he told her about the list. And tbh, even if Joe didn’t tell her, it wouldn’t take much asking around to find out about the list – he mentions the damn thing to half the people he talks to. All she’d have to do is talk to Roz and boom, list is out.
That brings up an interesting question. Has there been anyone he has offered his list to who hasn’t reacted negatively to it? Like Dorothy rolls her eyes in disgust, Roz tells him to stop rating women, Raidah was actively disturbed, Joyce was angry, and Danny glared at him.
Like he kept doing it even though not a single person around him was like “yes, this thing you are spending all your time on is a useful and not at all creepy document and will surely be well-received by all the ladies who are so blessed as to witness it”.
They’re just not “cool” enough to understand his manly ways. Objectification of females is in these days. Plus, everyone needs to know how amazingly gifted he is at evaluating how good a girl will be in bed. It’s not just for him to show off his “do’s and don’t’s,” it’s a public service to show all the guys who they should be going after. I mean, except for the fact that it’s password protected. But, uh, it’s definitely all for Danny’s benefit. Yeah. He’ll appreciate Joe’s massive generosity one day.
Joe brought it up to anyone who would listen and many who wouldn’t and handed out the password to likely at least half of them. He seems to have told a relatively large amount of women in not one particular group. He then proceeded to bring it up in his F-ing gender studies class. If from there the gender studies class women talked to themselves about how creepy it is its not real is it. One or more of there male friends had the feed thrust upon them against their wills kept it out of morbid curiosity and shares it, its not exactly a secret. Its a real thing they proceed to vent with their friend circles what a creep he is. Manye in those friend circles now if Joe is brought up mention how creepy he is. Everyone knows everyone agrees this is creepy everyone knows they stand to lose no face if they call him on it.
It would be great if the next woman he approached in this way simply spat hard in his eyes and asked sweetly, “Did you like that? No? Too bad. That’s the closest you’re getting to my bodily fluids tonight, you loser.”
Raidah just honestly doesn’t strike me as someone who would care enough to go this far to expose a guy as a creeper and Rachel very much does. But we’ll see.
I disagree. Now, admittedly, we haven’t seen that much of Raidah, but what we have seen of her, she does not seem afraid to call out that kind of BS for what it is.
I mean, let’s take a look at the Sarah situation.
Now, regardless of whether she actually is justified (a whole other discussion that I’m not delving into now), she honestly does think that Sarah is not a good influence on anyone. And she’s been vocal about this to Jacob. She’s generally cool with Jacob talking to other women, praising other women, even… But she thinks Sarah is toxic and she’s told Jacob as much time and time again.
And when she met Joe, she pretty much immediately recognised Joe’s behaviour for what it is, she immediately got pretty repulsed by it, and she immediately vocalised that repulsion… And Joe responded by giving her more of it.
Taking all of this into consideration, I find it rather likely that Raidah would be more than willing to expose Joe’s creepiness.
A Patreon comic from last year briefly shows his list, and Joyce is still there… rated with negative numbers, only so he remembers not to bother with her anymore. Which was the only reason he agreed to give her text support during the weekend at her parents’.
Oh God, Gods, Goddesses, Alien Space Type Beings That Populated Our Planet, Spirit of the Earth or whatever someone believes in that actually grants dumb prayers like this one, let it be gone soon.
I REALLY want Danny to keep it as a new permanent element of his style. Not only are musical instruments cool, it has also enabled him to stand up to Joe’s shit…
I read it with a different ‘pressure’ on the words, so for just a second my brain went “but won’t that make Danny ‘that kid with the fish?’ instead of the ukulele?”
…..is that still a thing? I mean, I would think that at least the damn whippersnappers would have a new name for it. Cybering was around when I was a teenager, after all, and was having fun playing Age of Empires II.
Having checked the date on Age of Empires II, I will say that cybering as a term at least lasted around for a while longer and seemed popular enough still around 2008.
Well, no, now there are cameras and you can actually see the middle aged guy that is claiming to be a teenage girl, cybering is pretty much a past tense situation. Except among the very desperate and those that actually wanted a middle aged guy in the first place, I guess. Hmmm, I guess those are the ones that were doing it before. Yeah, it still a thing.
Why would you have to be desperate OR a middle aged man just to be someone that cybers?
Specifically speaking, people in long distance relationships do it, especially if one or both lacks a cam.
Its also done as a form of RP although I’m not sure if you would count this as cybering
I should have a permenant disclaimer. In making light of this, I am in no way presenting myself as an authority on this subject.
Having been in a Long Distance Relationship, that falls firmly in the desperate category.
Not sure if there are hard and fast rules for what is and isn’t cybering. If you want to classify it as anything involving seperate spaces and an internet connection, then there is a lotta lovin’ going on. If you want to define it as a purely text based art form, then I hear Twitter has its adherents.
I am by no means presenting myself as an authority on this subject.
It IS. My only sexual experience with a woman until the moment was basically doing that, one or two years ago. Sadly, her physical interest in me waned after our first and only date.
Danny is ready to provide scene music in what should be the hilarious takedown Joe’s had coming. And since it’s a Joe, the music can follow Joe anywhere!
Danny is ready to provide scene music in what should be the hilarious takedown Joe’s had coming. And since it’s a uke, the music can follow Joe anywhere!
Right choice of instrument, Danny. Keep your stinker at the ready, good egg.
TBF, Joe did say that underage was one of his deal breakers, so hopefully any girls he knew at the time were his age and listed with a year (like, ‘As of X year in the past, they were age Y, meaning they’d be like 19 now’) rather than just the age at the time.
Hey Joe, maybe consider if it’s something you’d be ashamed to have people see, you should be ashamed to be doing it in the first place. Bob Newhart has some advice for you…
Mm hmm. If you have a thing and it’s not a sexuality or a gender identity or something like that, but you’re terrified that if it gets out it’ll lead to negative consequences and folks “getting the wrong idea about you”, then it’s probably not a great thing to have in secret either.
He’s not ashamed that they see it he just hates that its causing him problems. Also that advice does not exactly hold up. You should not be ashamed that you occasionally need the bathroom, but please close the door.
If finding out about something you do will make people angry consider whether its worth it to stop to make them happy.
Also just from a CS standpoint-I don’t know what kind of neurosis compelled you to ask Danny to code an app for your do-list, Joe, but surely a spreadsheet buried in some misleadingly titled directory on your PC could have sufficed.
I certainly hope this wasn’t some kind of web service that, you know, a hacker could find the URL to.
Also Betty Boop’s dog sidekick, at one point, at least. Not sure if the “ditzy but cute woman” meaning was around in the late Twenties yet or not, but it may be worth pointing out that Bimbo was male.
–Huh, from Wikipedia: “The name Bimbo was chosen because in the 1920s the word was mostly associated with men who liked to fight.”
Also apparently he was her boyfriend, not her sidekick; she just got more popular.
–Anyways, apparently “bimbo” works fine for guys as well, ha ha, although apparently the meaning was wholly different. But “Ditzy but attractive” (or “attractive but ditzy”) without gender being specified seems to be perfectly legit.
And wow, am I putting too much thought into this! XD
He thought he was making an objective record that everyone would want to see to make sure that they were properly being attracted to the “8s and above” as well as notice him sleeping and pursuing said “8s and above”.
In short, he thought this would be a bro record so all his bros would slap him on the back and go “woo, dude, you nailed an (arbitrarily high number value used in place of a human being’s actual humanity), clearly you are a truly masculine dude full of macho machismo manliness and we’ll never ever suspect you’re a scared kid using toxic masculinity to hide from your real fears of processing emotions”.
I suspect part of the reason he’s upset is it got out and its popping that fantasy. No one thinks he’s manly for doing this. They think he’s creepy and weird and invasive.
‘Dun dun duuuuun’ has been the stock dramatic sting forever. It’s called ‘Shock Horror (a)’ and was composed by Dick Walter. The earliest credited use of it on IMdB is from 1996, but I’m certain it goes earlier than that.
Oh, definitely; I’m sure I heard it or a variation of it on the David Letterman Show in the late Eighties as a running gag, and it was old and schlocky then.
I think Joyce would be suuuuper creeped out. She may or may not be able to express why until somebody else puts sold words to it, but, she’s got plenty of precedent for punching Joe in the face, so there’s that.
No, she’s not. She’s been ‘practically excised’, meaning she’s still there, but he won’t do anything about it (probably with a whiny rant about how she won’t fuck him, possibly with a very justified warning about her hitting him on a date and her asking rude questions about his religion in place of a rant about how big her boobs are).
Certainly with no mention of their online chat over the weekend she was away or any concerns or emotions that might have come out of that. No way, no how.
You mean girl folks aren’t just sex props that pop into and out of existence as a man’s eyes scan over them? Next you’re going to say they have their own entire lives that expand beyond their sexual utility for a man or something!
Reminds me of the time I came across a site that had a password protected section but it was all handled with JavaScript. So the actual password was right there in the source code.
The password wasn’t really for anything serious, thank goodness, but it was kind of funny in a “oh no, baby, what is you doin?” kind of way.
Also, what did he think he needed a list for in JUNIOR HIGH?! That’s like middle school, right?
And why did he need an RSS feed for it in the first place?
From the second he started puberty he’s had this. Which means he likely didn’t just stumble on this idea. It likely was carefully taught by either the online community he hung out with or more likely by his dad.
Hell, his dad probably taught him the “system” so his son would know how to “be a proper man” and “treat women right”.
100% ready for Joe to get soooooo much shit for this wherever he goes for as long as this comic runs. I have traumatic flashbacks from when this happened during my school days and I’ve baaaaasically been waiting for a story where the perpetrator of such a list gets what’s coming to him, so I hope this delivers. I mean, no pressure or anything lol.
Also, has anyone made a ‘Joe Rosenthal, welcome to your tape’ joke yet, if not lemme get that in there too^^
When I was in high school someone put up a “Why Tarmaniel should kill himself” website. It featured ripped sprite animations from Doom as “helpful suggestions.” Since this occurred in the 90s, a teenager having his own website was fairly novel and so word of it spread quickly. I started getting asked about/made fun of over it by random adults that weren’t even connected to my high school. Needless to say, that was not a fun time in my life. It was also when I learned the hard way that nobody really cares about your mental health, as pretty much everyone I complained to about it told me to just suck it up and deal with it, because “words can’t hurt you if you don’t let them.”
Oh man, that sucks and I am so sorry that happened to you!
Mine was all analogue actually, it was an old school pen & paper list (also in the 90s), but it was almost this exact thing from the comic. Names of girls and what was good/bad about them. And as the fat, insecure, nerdy girl you can imagine it said no good things about me. In fact it said quite devastating things about me. Not that it matters how you ‘ranked’ or whatever, no one should be ranked. Or told to kill themselves. *hugs*
And you have a point as well about schools often, at least back then, being unequipped to deal with kids who are struggling with mental health. But in my adult life, therapy has helped me so much. Like, I’m in my 30s and I’m still working through my years of teenage bullying, because that took a sledge hammer to my self-esteem and did some lasting fucking damage. Kids can be brutal, eh?
I want to be shocked that *adults* thought it’d be appropriate to give you shit that another adolescent thought it was acceptable to make an entire website for that, but people are terrible and suggested suicides are all fun and games until someone actually does it and HOW could we have KNOWN, there were NO SIGNS, such a tragedy.
I’m sorry about the assholes in your past and admire the perseverance it took for you to survive them.
That is awful, I am so sorry you had to deal with that. And adults should have shut that shit right down. This is why anti-bullying policies and laws matter.
“Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words may break my heart,” is a far better and more apt version of the aphorism. The old version can go suck a sick.
I’m lucky enough that the Internet wasn’t a thing even at the local BBS level until I hit college. Nevertheless, bullying and harassment could be and was horrible, especially in a small town where classes were sorted by last name, and the population stayed fairly stable, so you were stuck with that one asshole in your class for pretty much your entire school life.
A friend of mine was harassed so much (and beat up so regularly, poor kid–his arms were broken so often that one time I saw him get one broken just from being shoved casually aside and hitting a frame around a bulletin board at I guess a bad angle because the thing was projecting only about 1/2 an inch and it didn’t look like he hit it that hard)–anyways, in Grade 12, a few months before graduation, he finally couldn’t take it anymore and jumped off a bridge on the way home from school.
I’m glad you were able to hang in there. And I’m glad that, finally, schools and laws are beginning to take this sort of thing more seriously.
My friend saw a psychologist (whom he hated) and was prescribed I think lithium (which he also hated); but if the abuse doesn’t actually stop, then therapy and drugs can only do so much. 🙁
It always surprises me when people answer to that with suicide instead of giving back as much as they can and kill a bunch of people. School was very painful for me too, and my basic reaction always was to give back as much as I could.
I’m not sure if Professor Alex in this universe is explicitly the same person as darkpower451 in the Walkyverse, but either way, I think the character’s already spoken for.
My money is on Rachel, since we know she took exception to being rated a few comics back. (It probably didn’t help that she was already pissed with Ruth still being RA and wanted to spread the pain) If she is as smart as she is in the other universes, she could easily acquire Joe’s info and find a way to distribute it so that Joe gets discredited and basically has never has a chance to get with anymore girls, at least on her floor.
(Other theory, but less likely, she thought like Joe and put up a list with a rating system that is surprisingly accurate, for the same reason.)
This… isn’t really activism. Like, I approve entirely of it, but this is revenge.
Roz would likely have no objection to Joe’s awfulness being exposed, but Rachel seems far more likely. She actually has the knowledge to do it, and has been much more recently been shown to be immediately done with Joe’s shit.
A person she barely knows and briefly referenced it? Joe and Rachel have literally met once. That seems a bit impersonal for it. I say that as someone glad anyone did it.
I don’t think Roz really had any bad blood with Joe. They were there when they “needed” each other and nothing more really. Roz probably knew Joe was awful, but the way they left things and their reaction to each other (or little of it) seemed to show she really didn’t have that much of a problem with him, at least enough to destroy his reputation like this. She probably has more of a beef with Mary being… well Mary (then again who doesn’t)
As for “literally met once”, even if that might be true, Rachel is very observant and probably noticed Joe’s behavior well before he talked with her and ranked her. Also note that grudges have started for far less in real life. A girl I knew got shoved by another girl in high school, and it started a bitter hatred that lasted throughout high school. Considering Rachel’s rant and fury at Ruth and how she probably felt Ruth staying an RA was BS, she could have already been in a bad enough mood and maybe saw she could actually get some “justice” on someone.
Finally, think of the timing. Why would Roz go after Joe now? It would make more sense if she went after him when the sex tape leaked, (though it was her that “leaked” it if I am not mistaken), Roz has more of a grudge on a lot more people than Joe at least at this point.
Once again, all speculation, but trying to go off evidence and observation.
OK, so, was I just too young to understand the complexities of this when I was younger? Because I don’t remember being appalled by Barney Stinson (aware that it was shallow and stupid, but not apalled), but I’m instinctively repelled by Joe’s behavior. Is there anything really different about them, or is it just NPH’s general awesomeness?
Barney annoyed the absolute fuck out of me. Not just for the lengths he went to tricking women interested in relationships into banging him, but also for being a massive dick to Ted
Yeah, that’s true. He was that abusive type of person who does have a place for you in his heart but just doesn’t respect your decisions and imposes his ideals onto you. Gah, I’ve fallen prey to that type myself (some dominants from a humiliation chat room on furry Telegram who pressured me into being their servant; one originally was serving under the other, and they both just kind of “assumed” I was their official sub after I RP’d with them or obeyed what I thought were casual orders). It’s so friggin’ stressful to be pressured like that. It’s a good thing I do have SOME lines drawn that I won’t do for them… jeez, I would still be in that role otherwise. I am grateful to know the kind of people to look out for now, at any rate.
I literally have seen two episodes of that show. (I avoid it because I watch enough TV, and someday I may wish to watch it in order to find out the Big Ending.)
I have one tiny shred of respect for Joe in that he doesn’t make any lovey-dovey talk (that we know of) about becoming anyone’s boyfriend, looking for a LTR, putting “his wild days behind him”, “you’re different, I feel a deep emotional connection with you”, etc., in order to get into a girl’s panties.
He got better but the writers would frequently regress any and all character development at least once a season but honestly do yourself a favor and never watch that show. The series finale was the most horrifically bad, disappointing, misogynist piece of garbage I’ve ever watched and completely burned all the love I ever had for the show out of my heart forever. If you can’t help yourself and want to watch anyway quit after season 4.
Is it because Barney doesn’t really seem like the suave player type? He’s a player, sure, but his game sucks… or it seems like it should suck, but girls go for it anyway. Every over-the-top, transparent maneuver works, even though he seems so patently ridiculous. Still, even unbelievably gullible girls don’t deserve to be objectified. Even if the ditzy, high-pitched, blonde stereotype is … well, it’s almost as hard to be around as the macho, misogynistic he-man mentality Joe embodies.
Maybe I’m just already predisposed against the extremes of hypermasculinity/hyperfemininity. Some people seem to make it their business to conform to as many gender generalizations as possible. woot for androgynity
But like, when you’re introduced to Joe, it’s just like, why the fuck is he so… predatory and misogynistic? It’s just the immediate impression I have of him. He seems so creepy.
So it’s not the comments section… if anything, the more time I’ve read this webcomic, the more inured I become to Joe just due to exposure. White noise kinda thing. Not that the disgust isn’t there, it’s just diminished. It probably wouldn’t be just “white noise” if I weren’t a cis white guy who keeps his uncertain sexual/romantic preferences to himself, because I can imagine this kind of experience irl isn’t something that ever really stops hurting. idk
anyway, it’s good to have an arc focusing on Joe, because he is such a background character, and now we get reminded of what a sick shit he is. before hopefully he begins to learn the error of his ways?
I’m thinking it’s an age thing. Now that you’re older, your brain is more developed, and you’ve learned/become better at critical thinking, so you can recognize social norms and how fucked up some things in society are. That’s my experience anyway.
IMHO though, Barney is a bit more charming than Joe, in a kind of goofy way? So that might also be part of it as well
It’s also the presentation. I haven’t watched enough to know how Barney comes off in the show, but it’s pretty obvious here that the narrative sympathy isn’t with Joe. He’s presented as creepy.
Oh hey, consequences. Look at that. And also, wow, what an unfortunate strip to come out during the Cosby mistrial and the giant slap in the face that was for survivors (not to mention right after the cop who murdered Philandro Castle was allowed to walk with no charges*). Cause it means I’m definitely in a headspace to coldly enjoy a magical fake world where there are actual consequences for cis guys who commit crimes against those with less social power than them.
*The Cosby decision destroys me for obvious reasons, but the Castle decision rips me up almost as much. Like, not only is it yet another example of a black man being gunned down and his murderer facing literally zero consequences and put right back on the police force to murder again. But Castle was on top of that a school employee. And so this just brings back right after the shooting all those kids crying because their favorite lunch worker who remembered all their allergies and was so nice to everyone was gone. And it just makes me cry to imagine all those kids having to have their parents or the school explain to them that the man who took that man away from them faced no consequences for it. Like, gyah!
Panel 1: Ugh… so there’s this thing a certain type of gross guy does sometimes where they’ll have a whole system of being super gross and invasive towards women and trade secrets on how to be gross and invasive, but freak out when their little actions get revealed.
Like, when it was just a bunch of like-minded guys, it was all good and masculine and “all in good fun”, but once women see it, expose it, and denounce it publicly, suddenly they are innocent lambs done wrong by evil feminists “just trying to ruin good men”.
And there’s a lesson here. If you think a marginalized group will hate it if they were to know you were doing something. If you think the people in your life would be horrified to learn how you spend your free time on your hobbies? Maybe your hobbies are bad and harmful and shouldn’t be being done.
And what’s sickest about this is that Joe is still not even at the level of owning the fuck up he’s committed and the wrong he’s enacted. He’s still pulling a Donald Trump of complaining about his misdeeds being leaked rather than the fact he had misdeeds that shouldn’t have been done in the first place.
And that parallel does not make me inclined to be overly forgiving of Joe here. He knew this was the likely end of his shitty actions. People have told him this was the likely end of his shitty actions. People have begged with him to stop or knock it off and he’s kept doing it. And now that the easily forseeable has happened, he’s complaining about it getting leaked as if that’s the real issue here.
Except Hillary Clinton didn’t do anything wrong. What got out was a big fat pile of nothing that a giant hate machine tried desperately to spin into something and which was actively released as an intentional means of discrediting her campaign on behalf of people who hated her for being an accomplished woman.
That’s a whole other kettle of fish to “I did horrible things and someone told somebody about that and that’s the real crime”.
I’m not a big fan of Hillary Clinton in the fact I considered her a warmongering technocrat who was using the Democratic Party as her own personal tool rather than a reflection of the people’s will (yes, I am a Bernie fan) but the “scandal” about her was nothing. Nothing compared to a human avatar of the god of male white privilege and misogyny as well as corruption getting elected. I think the fact the “scandal” exists goes to show her enemies did everything they could to invent one where the ones she could actually be criticized for are the ones they couldn’t admit to their base (she liked murdering people with robots too much).
Generally, the DNC scandal business is real shady dealings like many of her policies. These are all things which deserved investigation and were things legitimate news sources and voters should have taken her to task for.
Generally, Republicans brought up the e-mail servers and other business because they had no interest in calling the pot black when they were engaged in so much worse election rigging and material. They also couldn’t criticize her war policies because their candidates were all about being worse.
one last note: Yes, what she did pales in comparison to what Trump has done.
That doesn’t change the fact that when the DNC e-mails WERE leaked, the big fuss was not about the CONTENT of the E-mails, but that they were leaked at all.
Again, I’ll be the first to admit that in a lot of it there’s not much (oh noes, Pizza orders). But there are certain parts of it that, well…..
Was not trying to equivocate the two, but there is a certain similarity, even while one is magnitudes worse than the other.
Fart, I disagree. If you’re referring to the E-mail server thing or the Clinton Foundation, fine.
But she and her campaign were found to have been doing some damn shady things when it came to the Primaries, ie Donna Brazile, Debbie Wasserman-Schulz, etc. That is not “jack shit”
I’ve got…..well, okay, I do have a few things against her for specific actions she and her campaign took during said campaign.
I am not referring to any legal issues with regards to the e-mail server, Clinton Foundation, etc.
I’m referring to the fuckery that was taking place through the Primaries–Donna Brazile, blatant and brazen warping of the Primary Process, Debbie Wasserman-Schulz, DNC money-laundering money into her campaign, etc…..and her outright refusal to admit that she ran her General campaign in anything but perfection. Instead insisting that it was everyone else BUT her that fucked up the election results (ie her not going to certain states despite folks from there BEGGING her to go).
No. No they weren’t. Certainly not in comparison to Bernie’s followers who actively harassed folks out of participating in caucuses and being able to access their full voting rights.
You have fallen for a lot of right-wing bullshit that got intentionally spread around the left-wing in the hopes of inspiring Bernie Sanders voters to refuse to support Hillary Clinton in the general election.
Like, I voted for the guy, but I’m also not going to pretend that Hillary Clinton is some big boogeyman. Especially not now when good friends of mine are having their family hunted like dogs by ICE and the rest of my friends are wondering how many more years they’ll be allowed to live under our stolen democracy.
Like, for fuck’s sake. She’s not Satan, she’s just an establishment Democratic politician with some really strong liberal values who ran on one of the most progressive platforms everywhere and got fucked over by one of the biggest screw-jobs in modern American history.
If she had been elected, we wouldn’t be fearing for our lives. We’d have health insurance, we’d have a functioning government, and my friends and I would still have the civil rights that were stolen from us and we wouldn’t be being hunted by over-empowered neo-nazis who see this as a giant “yes, you can murder all the (slur for gay men)”.
Like, I’m sorry to be firm on this, but I have less than zero patience for this fucking primary ad nauseum bullshit after it gave us the endless nightmare I’m burning literally all of my energy to try and survive.
I disagree in some respects, Cerberus because I think Hillary certainly did a lot shady politicking to shut out Sanders as a candidate and possible even white collar crime. Certainly, I believe she subverted the electoral process. I don’t like many of her policies and treatment of powers either.
But if I had a time machine, I’d stuff every ballot box in the United States to get her elected because it’s been months of destroying infrastructure and laws to support everyone who isn’t white, rich, cis, heterosexual, and plenty of people who are those as well. Because we still live on Earth and he’s destroying that too.
George W Bush is still worse because he killed probably around a million people and while I still reluctantly support the Afghanistan war, you can’t paint around the fact he legalized torture, kidnapping, and assassination programs. Trump hasn’t done anything as bad–yet. Still, I believe it when he comes on screen and says Trump is an embarrassment.
Not really. The DNC didn’t like him because he wasn’t a democrat and so a lot of the machine supported Hillary and threw their money and support behind her.
Most of the accusations of subverting democracy were a bunch of bullshit (often really racist bullshit that tried to argue that non-white voters voting was somehow “cheating” Bernie Sanders) and deeply ironic now that we live in a fascist nightmare where our votes were literally fucking stolen.
I’m also very tired of it. But I hope you’ll allow me one add:
Self-professed media geek who’s been reading Columbia Journalism Review since before the internet here.
People who try to make a mountain out of this molehill put their utter faith in the unfalsibility of every email leaked. The material was hacked, went through two sets of hands with axes to grind against Hillary and / or the DNC, and every single comma, clause and semicolon was treated like it was carved in fucking stone. Covered to a faretheewell by a media who would not have to pay any price for getting things wrong on the subject of HRC.
If I try to suggest to these folks that the “evidence” has no chain of custody, no curation, no verification, things have been left out, added, changed, or made up out of whole cloth, they look at me like I’m part of the conspiracy.
I filed stories for a little college newspaper with a staff who did this for fun (well, it was fun to us). No school of journalism at my college, no media pros cut their teeth there, no Pulitzers. And if I submitted this stuff to my editor, she’da laughed her ass off at me.
(My own copyedit error: Spaz is not “people” or “these folks” I mention in my post. I’m referring to many others I know. Apologies to Spaz, and I wish I had an edit button.)
Also, it might be worth noting why you demand personal apologies from Hillary Clinton for failing a standard of perfection when she won by 3 million votes against what is quickly revealing itself to be the biggest theft of an election we’ve had in our nation’s history, with massive disenfranchisement and multiple fucking groups doing everything in their power to try and bring her down.
And why you believe that there was “primary fuckery” when no amount of DNC being bitter about Sanders still campaigning against her when he was knocked out mathematically would change that he didn’t have the votes to win.
Or why you believe that Sanders is immune to being corrupt or flawed or responsible for his primary loss.
Or why you think it’s important to still be ringing this dead bell when Bernie himself was like “yeah, we lost fair and square and I support Clinton 100%”.
I dunno, is Trump’s election fraud worse than Bush and Gore? I can’t help wonder about the alternate universe where both Gore and Hillary won the electoral vote. Which, honestly, Gore did but those votes were destroyed.
Bush/Gore was a pretty clean election compared to Trump/Clinton. When you factor in a global fake news trend, Russian hacking, and a Congress willing to just cross its arms and run out any clocks it could, on this scale, this is something completely new.
And ValdVin, you are 100% right about the chain of “evidence” re: the Clinton emails. Also notable is that the Republicans were hacked too, but their emails were not released. That sounds like blackmail.
And I agree. In the end I did end up voting for her. She is not the big boogey-man that it was made out to be, but she’s also not the god-damn saint a lot of people are trying to make her out to be.
I absolutely agree that she would have been better than trump. Absolutely zero question.
I just have issues with her based on the campaign she ran.
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes she is better than Trump. And I admit I don’t have to deal with a lot of the things you and your friends have to deal with on a daily basis.
I’m not trying to say that she and Trump are equal. I just have specific issues that did not, in the end, outweigh the benefits of her becoming our president.
Do you have links for the Bernie harrassment, Cerb? Not being sarcastic or passive-aggressive or any shit like that. I’m genuinely curious. I never heard of anything like that. Granted, I was firmly in the Bernie camp at the time, and partisan blinders are a hell of a thing.
There’s also some good rundown post-mortems regarding specific harassment Hillary Clinton supporters got including death threats and sexualized harassment. Sady Doyle had some stuff up today about the folks who messaged her pictures of guns with “I’m coming for you” and harassed her for months for supporting Clinton. Dara Lind of Vox had a good breakdown of “bernie bro” harassment and Sarah Lerner has a good medium post breakdown of some of the sustained harassment Clinton supporters got in the primary. John Oliver also had a big breakdown of the issues surrounding caucuses in particular.
Honestly, though, I’d trade my left kidney for either of them to be the President right now and finally being able to go to bed reliably at night.
Even if it were actually true, none of that shit even approaches the same ballpark as Trump, on any level. He literally blames everything someone else, even that raid in Yemen that he only approved because Obama thought it was a bad idea.
The man is making money off his decisions as president, while obstructing justice. His first act of office was to empty out hundreds of important posts even though he has STILL not nominated replacements for more than a fraction of them. We just had a major naval incident off the sea of Japan, butt we have neither an ambassador to Japan, OR a Secretary of the Navy.
Not to mention openly admitting to sexual assault, being a racist, Islamophobic, homophobic, and completely incompetent jackass who keeps alienating our allies while praising mass murderers and dictators.
I was *NEVER* trying to make an equivalency argument. I am very sorry that you took it that way and I *am* sorry that I made it. Looking back I do see that it wasn’t anywhere near as valid as it sounded in my head.
I *absolutely* agree that Trump is everything you say and more. ZERO question.
I NEVER meant to equivocate anything. I’m sorry I wrote it like that and I’m sorry that it came off like that and I’m sorry that I wrote it too soon…..as in within a decade of the orange douche being in office.
All campaigns do shady things. This is the nature of big time politics. Don’t watch the sausage being made. It’s nasty.
I was honestly surprised when the emails were released that it wasn’t worse. There were some questionable things, but no serious rat-fuckery. Looking a little more closely, I think it was partly because it wasn’t needed – She had a dominant lead the whole way. She never even really ran traditional campaign attacks against Sanders. She didn’t need to.
If she didn’t need to do that, thinking she needed to cheat seems ridiculous.
see long post directly above. Not referring to Clinton Foundation, Benghazi, or Server. I have specific complaints about her and the Primary, and her refusal to own up to it.
She’s owned up to making mistakes. Some people will never be happy unless she accepts 100% of the blame and begs for forgiveness for having gotten more votes than any Democrat in history besides Obama.
It’s like in Joss Whedon’s leaked Wonder Woman script. Some folks seem to be really invested in seeing a powerful woman torn apart and made to admit that she’s a lowly wretch who had no business trying to have power in the first place.
Like, for fuck’s sake. She was a really good politician who was responsive to constituents, fought for some real important causes, and showed a good record of listening to folks regarding fuck ups and owning them (certainly way more than her husband).
And we’ve never demanded this level of public destruction for any previous Democratic candidate. We didn’t do this to Kerry or to Gore or to Dukakis.
And it’s hard not to see it as having to do with her gender when the same thing happens to powerful women in every field, even the fictional ones.
Okay, I’m going to stop posting after this because this is getting a bit out of hand, and I take full responsibility for ramping it up.
I will say that I have never been that politically aware until the last 3 years or so, so I don’t really have a frame of reference for previous elections. I wasn’t part of the “we” or “us” back then.
I was raised in a fundie christian right-wing househould, and didn’t even realise how liberal I was until I took careful stock of my political beliefs about 3-4 years ago or so.
As far as I’m concerned I don’t think (it is certainly conceivable) that it has to do with her being the right-wing boogey-man or a woman as far as I’m concerned.
It is entirely possible that Bernie was the politician that made me actually sit up and take notice to politics at all, and that yeah, maybe there is more scrutiny this time around than any other. I honestly don’t know and can’t tell, because I genuinely didn’t give a shit and didn’t really vote in any previous election in my life. Not to mention considering myself far, far more right than I actually was and am.
But I really don’t have any other frame of political reference other than this election cycle.
I’m going to walk away from the keyboard now. I’m sorry to have caused this row it was not my intention, and I honestly don’t think when it comes to me it has anything to do with her as a woman.
Again, I was not trying to make any equivalencies, I shouldn’t have posted that, and if I had I certainly should have done it totally different.
I was more referring to Cosby and Castle’s murderer and the fact that Dumbing-world often has its terrible patriarch characters eventually get some comeupance for it.
As far as I’m aware Joe hasn’t gone much beyond sexual harassment and dancing way closer to the line of non-consent than I’d personally prefer.
I find it interesting that when you look at the actual crimes committed by the cast Joe is pretty low in that Ruth, Amber, Billie, Joyce, Sarah, Sal and Mike could all be more or less argued to have physically assaulted people whereas Joe hasn’t
Hell Joe has been assaulted by Mike and Joyce and even stopped Joyce from being assaulted by Mike
You DO understand that something doesn’t have to be criminal in order to be shitty behavior, right?
Not to mention that context matters. Joe isn’t acting to defend someone’s life, or under extreme emotional duress, or even apologetic afterward. Not that any other character just gets a free pass for their bad behavior.
Have Joe’s persistently, repeatedly unapologetically shitty actions over the course of the entire comic been worse than individual shitty actions by several other characters?
Sarah, Joyce and Amazi-Girl have all apologized and been shown to feel remorse for those actions. Those events have been depicted as the characters at their worst. Each and every one of those characters has absolutely done amazing, selfless things to earn my willingness to forgive them. Sarah can assault whoever the fuck she wants after the way she came to Joyce’s rescue. Joyce has repeatedly gone to incredible lengths to do right by her friends, even when it put her life at risk, when it might cost her her family and community, and even when she had to fight through PTSD just to get to her friend and apologize that much sooner. Amazi-Girl risked her life to save a total stranger simply because she was asked.
What exactly has Joe ever done that should make me want to shrug off the bad things?
Joe’s shitty behavior, while lesser in magnitude, is consistent in its crappyness. It’s his baseline. We only occasionally get a glimpse of the non-garbage person underneath.
And the thing is, those glimpses make me angrier at him. I liked the Joe that was texting with Joyce and offering real advice for surviving the weekend with her family, and the one who genuinely cares about Danny. I cannot wait for THAT guy to emerge out of the septic tank of toxic masculinity and misogyny that he’s submerged himself in.
I don’t even actually HATE Joe. I hate his behavior. I wouldn’t even feel the need to complain about it so much if it weren’t for the people (and I’m not even referring to you here) who seem intent on downplaying the very real harm done by acting the way he does.
No, it isn’t.
But those behaviors were pretty much one offs, or the characters have otherwise made up for it.
Sarah acknowledged it was wrong and apologized to Raidah. Has not punched her at subsequent meetings.
I don’t think Joyce has specifically apologized, but she’s definitely grown as a character enough not to do the same thing again.
Amazi-Girl and Sal have teamed up and she seem to be over her problems with Sal. Even Amber is only slightly freaking out in her presence now.
Character growth makes a difference. Joe is, so far, still Joe. He’s still doing the same shitty things he’s been doing all along.
Panel 1 (cont): And the password thing… like Danny notes one panel later that his security was a joke that could be bypassed in a second, but it could have been secured by the ultimate white-hat team on the planet and this is still how everything would end.
Because no security system is secure enough against people. And Joe has been handing out his list’s RSS feed and password to everyone he stumbles across like it was candy and telling everyone else it exists and they should find it. Eventually that was going to bite him on the ass and likely has bitten the women he has rated on the ass before this. You think the D-bros Ryan hangs out with, if they had this list, wouldn’t be going out of their way to find and mock the “5s and below” or stalk the “8s and up”?
Like, beyond the fact that it was never protected, the information in it is so harmful to the people inside of it on top of it being a gross boner update guide.
And it’s worth noting as this finally falls apart on him despite the gentle warnings Danny and Dorothy have given him for years that this was coming, how his actions with said list have only highlighted how utterly bad he is at boundaries.
Like, the people he threw his list at frequently didn’t want it or were actively in the process of rejecting it or going through their own stuff and didn’t need this as well.
And like, no one is that selectively bad at consent. That they can’t tell someone going “the thought of this list existing makes me sick” or Danny’s pained glare were actually signs of not wanting something and still be able to navigate any form of society without being arrested.
So Joe has known that Danny didn’t want to hear his boner update on his very recently ex girlfriend, that most women hate to know this thing exists, that Raidah was actively repulsed by its existence and he still tried to shove it in everyone’s faces.
But hey, now that that isn’t just a “teensy tiny” form of sexual harassment and non-consensual power play but something with real consequences, he’s freaking out.
Yeah, all out of sympathy for that, but hey, maybe this is where healing can begin and he can start excising out all the toxic masculinity and build a healthy masculinity and a healthy hobby that isn’t systematically dehumanizing women.
Panel 2: Danny is a very good egg and has a lot of empathy for his friend even while recognizing his friend has completely and thoroughly fucked himself over. Like, that pained expression on his face as he answers this question that’s actually more of an accusation from his friend.
He cares about Joe, he wants him to be able to see this and heal from this. And he cares deeply that his friend is in distress and pain even if it is something that is entirely owing to his actions.
But it’s also him setting a boundary. Not running around trying to save Joe’s bacon while Joe mocks him the whole time, but laying down a truth full of empathy and refusing to otherwise support the validity of what he did. And I’m really proud of Danny for doing that.
(Also, holy fuck, middle school. He’s been doing this since literal puberty, which means he fell in with PUAs the second he started scouring the internet for porn or even more sick to imagine, he learned it from his creepy lothario dad. And it also means that he’s had years of Danny telling him “dude, this is a bad idea” that he’s actively ignored and mocked (he’s repeatedly tried to hard press Danny into being just as fucked up and “on the hunt” as he is and mocked his masculinity when he refused)).
(And worse yet, it has his creepy boner updates about women who were underaged at the time he was publicly passing this around to anyone who crossed his path, RSS feed and all. Like, he was just a kid, but holy fuck is that a supremely unsafe thing for him to be throwing on the internet. Even more so because he updates it with sex stuff, so every woman who has overlooked his awfulness and slept with him now gets to see as their sexual exploits are partially categorized as well. Ugh, every layer of this just makes my skin crawl more).
Joe really has shown a shocking lack of redeemable qualities in this storyline and as bad as his dad is, I don’t think he’s keeping a list of women on the internet steadily for at least five years. The devotion to this list is the creepiest part and it’s completely made of creepy.
Joe knew this was bad, he did it anyway, and now he’s complaining people are horrified.
Actually we’ve seen that if you communicate with Joe in a way he understands he can be quite respectful.
Joyce inadvertently stumbled onto it by being direct with her questions and statements (possibly texting also helped)
Danny always beat around the bush and was never clear but almost expected that Joe should be able to “know” what he was talking about which can be really annoying whereas Joyce was straightforward
There is none, hes got a lot of learning to do but hes not the irredeemable monster hes being made out to be (on the boards) and hes certainly not the worst of the main cast either
A LOT of the people justly criticizing Joe for his behavior have explicitly stated their hope that Joe will learn and grow out of being a trash monster
I think that when you look at what Joe has done and compare it to other characters that have, in my opinion, done worse it seems like the slack given to those characters is more then the slack given to Joe
What Joe has done is not cool, not good, is potentially illegal and should be called out but what he hasn’t done is stalk someone, physically assault someone (in fact he stopped Mike from assaulting Joyce), sexually assault someone, break into someones room etc etc
Just seems like hes getting more vitriol then others although that may be due more to me being able to identify more with Joe then with other characters
I suspect the reason he’s getting more vitriol is easily explained by the fact he’s a side character whose flaw is more pronounced through his appearances (he’s not one-dimensional, but it may seem that way sometimes).
Also, you know, cause he’s a cis-white(or white enough, at least)-male, and who doesn’t love demonizing those. It’s a victimless crime!
Although I’m not sure whether I agree with your assessment that he’s getting more vitriol than others.
I might be wrong, of course, since I don’t read comments every time, and even when I do it’s only a portion of them, but it seems that every time someone does something that could be construed as “wrong”, there’s always a ton of people standing in line to call said character an asshole/monster/douchebag/etc. (although I’m not talking purely about DoA here, it’s a trend I noticed in several webcomic audiences.)
Kinda reminds me of Strong Female Protagonist (interesting comic, can recommend), where after a certain story development people started talking shit about the main character in a, in my opinion, extremely exaggerated fashion.
Some people just get very emotionally invested into expressing their view about the actions of fictional characters. It’s ok, leads to interesting debates, but yeah, people tend to use, lets say, heavy expressions that are, in my opinion, more often then not undeserved.
He has sexually assaulted. Grabbing women from behind in a sexual manner (like he’s done to Joyce and Dorothy and Sierra and I could go on) is sexual assault when they don’t want to be grabbed. It’s the mildest form of sexual assault out there and in all frankness would likely never be provable in a court of law, but it is still sexual assault in the legal sense of the term.
I wouldn’t add Joe into the ranks of Blaine or Ross. But the difference between Joe and Ryan is one of degree, not of kind. Joe hasn’t decided he cares more about his boner than not risking jail time (which was previously literally the only reason he expressed caring about consent – he doesn’t want to rape not because it hurts people, but because getting caught could hurt him).
Aside from that:
*Lack of respect for boundaries… check.
*Willingness to use chemical intoxicants to undermine a target’s faculties to obtain plausible consent… check (Joe has explicitly admitted to using alcohol to this end, and while we do have word of Willis that he hasn’t taken it too far, it must be noted that alcohol is the most commonly used date rape drug, and using it in that manner is walking a v-e-r-y thin line)
*Objectification of women… check
*Refusal to see his targets as people… check
*Refusal to back off when explicitly told to unless threat of force is employed… check
*Persistent gaslighting of chosen targets and insistence that he’s the real victim when he faces backlash for his actions… check
*Persistent deflection of blame for the consequences of his own actions on everyone else except for him… check.
Word of Willis is that Joe is not a date rapist – but lacking that Word of Willis, that would be the read I get off him. And I’m not pulling this from whole cloth – literally every guy I have met who is as invested as Joe is in sexual objectification and PUA asshattery is either an actual rapist or a guy who is too inept at PUA asshatery to manage to date rape but who wants to. Hell, I went to school with a dude who was a paler version of Joe, right down to having a do list he’d harass girls with, who is now doing 12 years in prison for date raping his next-door neighbour, who even he would admit was as close to him as his sister. But she was a tease who liked wearing short shorts so she wanted it, even if he damn near killed her with ketamine to get her agreeable. There are nine other victims the cops know about (including one of my sister’s friends) but that was the only case they could stick, because date rape is damn near impossible to prove in a good region, and that region has the single highest ‘unfounded’ rate in the goddamn country (cops throw out over 2/3 of rape complaints as ‘unfounded’ – basically saying no crime occurred so they refuse to investigate. Think what happened to Rehtaeh Parsons).
Joe is not irredeemable, but he’s walking about as close to the line as he can. The literal only thing that keeps me from writing him off as a character is Willis’ insistence that he’s not a rapist out of comic. In-comic, there’s nothing to indicate that he’s not just paying lip-service to caring about consent. He tings all of my date-rapist warning bells and is creepily similar to a real-world date rapist I had the misfortune of knowing.
Ryan is what a cartoon date-rapist looks and acts like. Joe is what a real-world date rapist looks and acts like. Where Ryan vows violent revenge when met with effective resistance, a real-world date rapist accuses his own victim of being a crazy b-word who has it out for him / a slut who has buyer’s remorse / a tease who wouldn’t give him a solid yes or no so how was he supposed to know / all three of the prior at once and claims that he’s the real victim here. And it works.
@chris73: Some of those other characters have done worse, but have also grown and changed since then: Joyce & Mike punching Joe (Joyce has changed drastically, Mike’s still an ass), Ruth’s certainly faced consequences and is trying to stop the violence, Amber/AG’s stopped her stalking of Sal, though we’re still in the midst of her arc.
The latter two still face a ton of criticism from the commentariat, if possibly from different sections than criticize Joe.
Joe meanwhile continues on his merry way, rating and sexually harassing women, with no change, remorse or consequences. Until now when the consequences start showing up.
@ischemgeek: That’s what bothers me most about Joe. Even with this plot arc, it feels like minimization of the problem to me. He trips every date-rapist red flag, but we’re assured he really isn’t. Contradictory messaging and a signal that people who behave like that aren’t really so bad.
And that’s where we disagree. The way Joe treats women makes him monstrous. Not every bad person has to chase someone with a rifle before we decide they’re a bad person.
Do you also think Ruth is monstrous? I think what Ruth did to Billie is worse but I don’t think shes monstrous because of it (shes still got aways to go though for redemption)
No, because Ruth has shown an understanding of the wrongness of her actions and seems to be working to change. Joe thinks he is the maligned party here and has no remorse for treating women the way he does. He thinks just because he’s not a literal violent rapist, he’s fine. That makes him monstrous.
I don’t think most people here think he’s an irredeemable monster – just an asshole who is continuing to be an asshole. He’ll probably change, but for now, he’s still an ass.
The thing that concerns me is that people actually do say he backs off when told, when he very much does not. Not you, but I keep seeing it pop up when people talk about his creepy as fuck list.
He says he backs off when told. He does back off a bit when screamed at or threatened, but he’ll come back with lines next time he sees them, though it doesn’t seem he’s pushing as hard.
I don’t think he’s irredeemable and I’m sorry if I gave that permission.
I think he’s a gross asshole. I think he dances way closer to the line of sexual assault than I’ll ever be comfortable with and has done things that are really awful and harmful and tap into a really awful rape culture. And some of the things he does is very evocative of specific individuals who are especially toxic or dangerous to me personally and if I knew this person in real life, I’d stay far far away and probably rant to partners about what fucked up thing “that asshole in my gender studies class did”.
But in the end, his flaws are very much human like many of the antagonists. He’s stuck in a toxic masculinity bubble that it’s really easy for young men to fall down, which young men are encouraged to fall down into.
And now he’s crawling out and I’m cheering for him crawling out, because this is often part of coming of age as a man (rejecting that toxic masculinity and carving out your own healthy masculinity). I want to see him redeemed.
But I’m not going to shy away from what a monumental tool bag he’s being and what specific fuck ups he’s committing are as he’s getting there.
You haven’t given that impression, you’ve been very consistent in your views (which is good) so my comments arn’t directed towards you
I guess my concern is that when you compare Joe to others he doesn’t come off as bad as what the majority of the comments section would suggest
A lot of it is sounding like Joe is representative of the harassment that people on here have had to endure so when they see him, finally, face up to the consequences of his actions its only natural that there’ll be some joy
As a representative of the bullying I faced at high school I have no problems with seeing Ruth get what she deserves (but I also want to see her get redemption as well…eventually)
However as someone that can of recognize some of Joes behaviors from my later years (not to the same degree though) I also know that Joe isn’t a bad guy (well maybe he is at the moment) but has had some awful messages in his youth (probably from his father) and that his major issue is lack of respect for women and immaturity, in certain areasbwhereas in others hes quite mature
We know hes not homophobic, not violent and has a defensive streak in him so I see a lot of potential for positive change
Of course he has to first understand why his behaviors are wrong and that should lead to some more drama
i mean, like. a little bit this is like the argument that “i have a daughter, i can’t be a rapist!!” your relationship with one of the people in your life does not magically wipe out every other relationship you have ever had in your life
i mean maybe it means you can go on to have more relationships like that, but it’s a starting place, not an ending place
I picked up my uke to see if it worked. Cheerful little major chords, but the bottom notes of them make a perfect “Dun Dun DUUUUUNNN.”
(OK, the F# needs a little “3” next to it, but I’ll let that go.)
They do work; so does Ebm Cm F#m which is a little less cheerful. Working is all we need for this story since Danny is of course learning, but I’d be interested to know: is there is actually a standard version of the dun-dun-dunns?
Panel 3: Ugh, again, he’s more upset that it got out and moreso that women have access to it and making judgments about it that aren’t the fantasy ones he had in his head. And he’s still making creepy sex jokes about all of this as if his gross insistence on filtering everything through this form of sexual aggression and harassment wasn’t a major part of the problem.
And I just want to note that as this all falls apart just how much of a sexual harasser Joe has been coming up to this moment.
Like, how many creepy sexual jokes has he made at Joyce long after she’s begged him to stop and had a full PTSD response to them? How many times does he still demean and objectify his teacher and the women in his Gender Studies class even though he’s been told to knock it off? How many times has he bowled over obvious body language that the people he is being gross at have no interest or desire to hear about his fucking boner updates?
And I like that this arc is coming so quickly on the heels of Ryan resurfacing, cause Joe is on the bad road that leads to being Ryan. Like, I trust Willis that he hasn’t gone over that line yet, but he’s danced real close to it and has enjoyed the power of doing something sexual in nature to a woman who actively and emphatically does not enjoy it.
Like, it’s not rape or sexual assault, but it is sexual harassment and it’s based in that same rape culture that births those much worse crimes. That same idea that making a woman uncomfortable is a fun activity, that ignoring all body language or social norms until someone literally yells at you to stop is an okay thing to do and just “flirting”, and that giving women something they don’t want (the RSS feed or knowledge about the list and their rating on it) and actively asked not to have is absolutely okay as long as it doesn’t cross over that thin white line.
And that’s one of the worst aspects of toxic masculinity. The way it makes a game out of fucking with women’s consent with a lot of guys acting like all the creepy invasive stuff that doesn’t cross some line they have in their head that’s “real rape” is somehow okay.
Joe has violated more innocent forms of consent, but forms of consent nonetheless and so many people who aren’t Joe have used this form of sexual harassment as a training ground for the even worse actions.
And that sexual harassment still has a cost. It still scares women out of participating in certain spaces, in letting themselves flirt and sleep with certain people, can cause massive PTSD depending on the level of harassment. It still has a cost.
And Joe like a lot of guys of his type is freaking out because a bare fraction of the consequences from that is falling on him and he truly believed he was immune owing to his gender.
But this is his chance to turn back.
Panels 4-5: Also, Danny is a pure wonderful cinnamon roll here and I’m loving it.
Joe is a pig. A gross one. I’m a very sex-positive person that thinks people should be able to want sex as their major hobby. Everything Joe has done has done it to be something not only for just him enjoying it (which I thought he at least knew wasnt cool) but also invasive as well as ignoring how uncomfortable as well as offended the women involved were. He has, as one partner of mine said, made something beautiful something ugly.
Worse, he’s done it to people who are ostensibly his friends and he KNOWS which makes it doubly ugly. Like, its the fact its everyone around him which makes it extra creepy.
I feel like Joe is a perfect example not of a sex-positive person, but the type of gross toxic asshole who tries to claim “sex-positivity” as an excuse for their harassing behavior and a mask for their bad boundaries.
Like, an actually sex-positive person is super respectful of boundaries and humanity and recognizes everyone’s personhood and that there’s things that don’t need to be shared to all social circles and that some people are going to have different relationships to sex.
It’s crafting a safe space for people to talk openly about sex and consent and what that means. Not to be gross at people in an attempt to intimidate them or make them feel uncomfortable and then blame them for acting accordingly.
And it’s really obvious to see in hindsight. There’s a very large difference in how a sex-positive person makes you feel after an interaction than the predator makes you feel. One makes you feel open to talking about your identity and sexuality, one makes you want to crawl up in a wall and never mention what you are into again.
And the Joe types exploit that to accuse folks who react naturally to the creepiness of being “frigid” or “sex-hating” and demanding that they push past their boundaries in order to “prove them wrong”. It’s a really big problem*.
*And it’s an even bigger problem against asexuals. Because the Joe types target us like the plague because they believe we’re all just repressed and frigid and that pushing us into sex will somehow unlock our secret wild sexual attractions. And that harassment by Joe types is sometimes so bad that there’s a decent amount of sex-positive aces who loathe sex-positivity because they just ran into one too many Joes in those spaces.
In what is a post also directed at Cerberus, I also note this is also a reflection of what a spectucarly shitty friend Joe is. In guys circles, there’s a culture of creating wolfpacks (I hate to use the Hangover but it is reflective) around you of people you essentially make feel like shit so you can feel superior.
It was something I was hoping we’d see a more rounded picture of but, increasingly, its clear Joe just sees Danny as a prop to feel superior to. He treats him like garbage, puts him down emotionally, and generally shares no interests with him. I would ask WHY are they best friends but the answer is because, again, Joe feels better with Danny as the “beta male” (I want to kill whoever came up with that) and him as the Alpha.
Joe is basically an emotional vampire and his anger at Danny is motivated by him developing and growing into someone he can’t feed off of.
Oh my God.
Joe is Biff and Danny is George McFly.
We need Danny and Amber’s son from the future to save him.
Except, even George recognized Biff wasn’t his friend. Real life relationships like theirs are worse and I’ve seen hundreds of them. It’s a very common thing in quote-unquote guy culture.
Yeah, I’m hoping part of this arc is him realizing that he hasn’t done right by Danny in the friendship and deciding either to move on or rebuild something healthier.
One thing Joe’s got going for him is a tiny sliver of awareness that he may have fucked up. Which is a lot more that can be said of a few other males in this comic… *ponders if Blaine’s non-existent neck is out of its brace by now*
Hopefully this storyline leads to a redemption of sorts for Joe because hes not a bad guy at all but, like Ruth, Danny, Amber , he’s been influenced by the actions of his father (probably) but if someone like Ruth (whose actions have been much worse) can start to change their actions then Joe can as well
You mean that this entire chapter is basically a parable on corporate cyber security and how a system designed and implemented ten years ago probably isn’t safe now (much to the surprise of bosses who insist that cyber-security needs no budget as ‘our system was designed to the highest security standards)?
Though I hope he hasn’t actually been “hacked” in that sense and it’s actually a cyber-security parable on how social engineering is still the most effective hacking.
In Joe’s case of course “social engineering” consists of standing still in his presence long enough for him to tell you about the list and give you the password.
Good to see that Danny can see the “urgency” of the situation XD
Now the question is… who Cybered Joe… Amber seems to have some know-how but I kinda doubt it was her…
It was established in the 8th strip of the entire comic that he has a ‘Do list’, which is mentioned again in the 27th strip as having an RSS feed and subscribers. It is also mentioned again in the strip labeled ‘Skim’ found on the 7th page of the Joe tag, as well as in ‘Boys Pizza Retreat’ in the second page of the Joe tag. There are likely a few other instances I’m forgetting.
He may tell people he ranks high if they are really high like with Rachel he said she was an 11 out of 10 as a flirting technique, but he doesn’t go around telling everyone their ranking as he didn’t tell Joyce that she was a 4 (though he made ‘remarks’ that she could ‘be made into a 10’).
He was a boring dingus early on, though the comments was unfair towards him on a lot of stuff. He’s grown a lot since the beginning of the comic, almost as much as Joyce.
As far as I can tell, Danny’s worst crimes were clinging to a high school relationship (while just barely out of high school) and not figuring out the new girl he’s crushing on is the vigilante he’s also crushing on.
And we might have been too hard on him for that second one. I wouldn’t know, I’ve never had a friend who’s also a masked crusader. To Danny’s credit, the day after he finds out and examines a newspaper photo pf Amazi-Girl, he immediately scolds himself for being a “stupid schmuck”.
His other-world counterpart was pretty awful and super judgmental of others in a shitty “this is why God doesn’t approve of your marginalized identities or extramarital sex” way, which I think where a lot of early “dannying it up” momentum came from to start with.
In this comic, Danny started out with some flaws, most specifically that he was a bit of a Nice Guy TM and acted as surrogate enforcer for shitty culture by glaring at Roz for “getting Joe in trouble” and the like.
But since I’d say Parent’s Night when we saw his abuse at the hands of his parents, he’s been molding himself more and more into a really good and sweet kid who genuinely tries to do the best he can for people and a really good egg.
He used to Dan things up but now he’s a good egg and… wait, the ukulele is working. Maybe not in his world but the comment section actually seems to like him now that he’s begun his plot. Holy crap, Dan is a genius of fourth wall manipulation.
What if the list was the initial reason ‘ryan’ targeted Joyce? I know it’s unlikely since it would have been mentioned… but given the cliffhanger we got and the content of the list…. oof, this is uncomfortable.
Joyce was on her own at the party, with clothes and demeanor that scream “sheltered”. Ryan didn’t need any online list to judge her an easy mark (and he was wrong about that).
More recently, he was tracking down Dorothy because that’s who Amazi-Girl had been texting during the rally.
My hate for Danny is now even greater as I witness his lousy work ethics! What kind of administrator doesn’t update security measures and risk private content leaking out? Shame on you Danny, shame on you…
What’s major about Amber being covered in someone’s blood, Dorothy having a thousand yard stare, and the conspicuous absence of that one kid with the scar across the schnoz?
Honestly, as someone who has met Joes in every male-heavy group I frequented, I am one hundred percent here to watch him face some ugly consequences. I don’t personally care if he gets redeemed or learns to do better. I won’t be upset or against it if he does, but I’m apathetic.
It’s pure catharsis for me to watch Joe actually get ostracized and told off for being a gross creep as opposed to everyone around him making excuses for him and brushing it off, (which has been the case for those real life Joes.)
Yeah, in reality, you’re the (slur for woman) if you call out their behavior as gross and everyone makes excuses for their constant casual microaggressions.
So yeah, there’s a lot of catharsis to seeing actual social consequences for being a gross sexist jackass.
Good gods Joe. I take issue with how you treat and judge the women around you, and your lack of knowledge of password security.
The moment you let someone else besides you know a password it has an effective security of nothing.
Unrelated to the comic but I just finished a comic on called My Lesbian Experience with Loneliness, a manga about a young woman dealing with depression, and I think a lot of people here would be really into it.
It’s on comixology for ten dollars if you’re interested (and Trigger Warning for those who are bothered by depictions of depression and self harm).
I guess the issue is with a storyline like this and the amount of characters to give time to it means that everyone has to wait their turn for a redemption arc
I just hope that Joe can evolve from a one dimensional bro to something more, preferably a better, more respectful person
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Hmmm. Joe done anything to piss Amber off recently?
Danny pretty much just pointed out you don’t need someone Amber’s level to break into it. Joe’s pissed off a lot of women.
My money’s on Roz
I don’t know. She did go sleep with him of her own will so it would be kinda hypocritical… but then again humans are full of hypocrisy.
Being willing to sleep with someone and tolerating their sexism strike me as fairly independent variables. I don’t see hypocrisy.
For me it’s about Standards. Would you sleep with a bag of manure? Because that’s more or less what Joe is.
Judging from in-universe reactions, Joe is exceedingly attractive on a purely physical level, and very, very good at sex. There are men who will sleep with a woman because of such assets and abilities, despite her being an objectively terrible person. I’d say the rational, and even properly ‘feminist’ answer would be that women, being no better than men at the scale of individuals, aren’t above doing the same thing.
Pretty much. I have nothing against Roz sleeping with whoever she wants. I just snicker at the irony that the most feminist character on the cast willingly and happily slept with the biggest sexist.
See, the “good at sex” thing confuses me. Generally that involves paying attention to your partners’ wants, needs and feelings and communicating with them. Joe isn’t known for any of that.
The only thing we’ve seen is Roz and Joe and a remark about “If you want your underwear back you know where to find it”. The smiles indicate a good time.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/04-the-bechdel-test/serious/
There was a comment from Roz in a Slipshine about Joe’s only real asset in sex being stamina.
And that she makes him keep his mouth shut.
I thought keeping your mouth shut was usually detrimental in sexy fun times, especially with ladies.
Seriously, vibrators can go for a long time. Surely most people want so much more than that from a partner? Or am I just choosier than most?
I need to get Slipshine. I swear I’ll read it only for the exposition.
But *why* did Roz sleep with Joe? Because she wanted to have sex with *Joe* or because she wanted to make a sex tape to put on the internet and she knew Joe would (1) agree to being taped and (2) not get angry when the tape was made public? And (3) when you’re making a porn video, you want your actors to be as attractive as possible.
For Roz’s purposes, Joe was not only the obvious choice, he might have been the only choice.
All fair points. But I’ll still laugh at her choice.
She’s slept with him since, if that makes a difference.
To quote the Slipshine “sometimes if I can’t line up anybody else, I know he’s always available for more.”
That’s… actually kinda sorta sad…
How so? Both Roz and Joe get what they want when she cannot find better. Sometimes you don’t have the finest food in the fridge and pizza is fine.
Also, about your comment earlier, I don’t see the irony about feminist women sleeping with whoever they want, sexist pigs included. You cannot judge one person’s choices in sexual partners, that’s the golden road to direct slutshaming.
If Roz slept with the most reactionary Republic man, she would still be feminist and respectful towards herself.
@Cauchemar
And I frankly can’t see how YOU can’t see Irony in this. It’s basically like… a black man and a KKK member having a great time at barbecue XD It’s Mario and Bowser having a beer together. I know I’m exaggerating but it’s still Just That Weird.
I’m not denying Roz’s feminism. I just find this particular “sleeping arrangement” to be hilarious.
Carla could do a brute force script on that with one hand.
Which is very different from the way Joe intended brutes to use his list with one hand.
As someone who had a horribly insecure website in middle school, this would not surprise me.
Putting my bet in for Mandy now…
My money is on Roz after she taught the class. It would have been easy however she chose to do it.
Hell, she probably had the password just given to her. He threw Raidah a link and a password just for spending five seconds in his presence. So, it wouldn’t be that out of character for him to hand it out to women he sleeps with as well.
I think it should be Roz because it won’t have much meaning coming from strangers like Amber, Mike, or Rachel. Roz doing it is INTERESTING.
Yet I think it was Rachel, she is handy witch electronics (in the original verse), and she was disgusted with Joe last they met.
“also, your password is Joe”
I thought it was “password”.
“But I made sure you had to use both letters AND numbers.”
Oh right, …. Password1.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5
That’s the same combination I have on my luggage!
…is that that from Archer?
Spaceballs the Movie
Spaceballs the Lunch Box
isn’t it always swordfish?
Only in the movies.
This is Joe we are talking about. The password was obviously 69.
sixtynine96
Joe69
Nice.
“His password is his penis”
That password is too short and not secure enough.
That might have been the burniest of burns I have ever witnessed. I tip my head to you in awe and fright.
Ow! That was amazing.
That Danny’s a good egg.
Gudetama, anyone?
Gudetama.
I had no idea Gudetama existed. Thank you so much for enriching my life.
May every girl he tries to hook up with between now and graduation throw that list in his face and may his future employers and friends find that list and never let him live it down.
joe gets the legally blonde ending!
😀
“YOU HACKED MY DO LIST?”
“what, like it’s hard?”
😏
he could just, you know, delete it.
Yeah but you’ve got to assume that other people have written angry blogs about it by now.
We’re in that weird transitional period where stuff lasts forever but not everyone has something stupid from when they were a teenager in their past under their real name. So those who do are unemployable.
Once something finds it way to the Net there is really no way to erase it for sure.
Yeah, it’s probably up on the Internet Archive by now. That sucker is forever.
At least until the domain gets bought out by a domain squatter who puts up a robots.txt file. I can’t even look up my old site anymore because my old host decided to let the domain go and it got snatched up by a domain squatter.
In fact, right now would be a good time. Get to the nearest computer. I bet Danny would help you if you asked him nicely.
This looks more like a doing of Mike by the minute
Idk, Mike hasn’t been connected with this storyline and has no reason to have Joe on his radar, has he? I like Rachel or Raidah much better for the anonymous do-gooder.
I’m suspecting one of the three Rs. Roz, Rachel, or Raidah.
The three Rs were different when I was their age.
Same here.
Reading, Writing, and Radiation?
No, no, no
Reading, Writing, and Retribution
Retribution!
Reaction, Retching, Revulsion
Mike is a teenage edgelord, but tearing people down is how he rolls. I could see him doing this. It’s not that he’s being helpful, he just likes to fuck with people and use their own personas against them.
It’s not that I doubt Mike’s capable of it, I’m just wondering if it makes sense narratively.
I suppose that’s a good point, his doing of this would be a bit of a jump, considering he hasn’t interacted with these two much thus far.
Mike would have mentioned it to Joe to enjoy his reaction.
I don’t see this being Mike’s doing, there’re too many random factors in the reveal for that, and it causes too little harm.
Well he is like Kotomine Kirei. He enjoys people’s suffering so you never know…
This being the doing of Mike would be a good way to get me to start sympathizing with Joe. =/.
(So please don’t be Mike.)
This being the doing of Mike would be a good way to get me to start sympathizing with Mike. =/.
(So please don’t be Mike.)
Danny went from hateable to most relatable.
Oh my goodness Danny is Lars from Steven Universe (except with a whole different set of issues than Lars’)
I dunno, replace “Pink Skin” with “Ukulele” and it’s basically the same
Incidentally, I have a drawing I did of Danny and Steven playing the ukulele together on Tumblr.
If it’s the one I’m thinking of, with “Peace and Love on the Planet Earth” and drawn on paper then scanned, I clicked ye olde like for it days ago.
(pretend I put the thumbs up emoji here)
“It’s supposed to be password protected!”
Then don’t give out the fucking password, dumbass.
I honestly expected this to be Danny’s response.
How can Joe be surprised by this when he keeps telling people his list has an RSS feed?!
Is it finally time for Joe’s stupid Bro Mask to finally shatter and he has to start dealing with reality? I hope so, I’ve liked the glimpses of actual Joe we’ve seen behind his persona.
you know what? I like the new danny
He can keep the ukulele, but I’m still not sold on the hat.
I’m in reverse. I like the hat, the Ukelele seems to be going too far and just gets in the way.
Well, you are both half wrong. He should keep the ukulele -and- the hat. So sayeth the emperor!
I agree with my liege.
Give the hat to the ukulele.
Maybe, but I look at that musical stinger in this strip and find your argument invalid. :p
He can ditch the hoodie for a polo.
He has some measures of self respect, integrity and even self esteem! What’s not to like?
Me too..
I’m thinking he started this as just what-the-heck silliness, but Joe’s reaction is too delicious: has he ever been able to mess with Joe’s head like this?
A paper bag, but not a wet one. Danny had skills, even back then.
That is precisely the level of seriousness this deserves, well done Danny.
Oh fucking NO, Joe, now women can SEE you being disgusting about them behind their backs, whatever will you do? It’s not like you can, idk, just STOP being disgusting about them
What is this s-word you are using? I do not understand. Surely being gross is like a natural disaster, completely organically formed and impossible to stop. Just a “natural” part of life.
Right? Like, everyone does it, it’s totally natural to reduce everyone around you to an absolute numerical value representing how fuckable you find them, disregarding any other facets of their humanity
(–at least one dude in yesterday’s comments)
now i wonder where i stand in fuckability stats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgx4k83zzc.
Not sure how I screwed that up. Maybe I left the quotes off of the address?This one goes to eleven.
https://xkcd.com/670/
Nature/Nurture? I read his reaction in the first panel as being ‘what have I wrought’, but then I’m in the camp of ‘wanting to like Joe and hope he grows as a person here’.
Also @ Shiro, I’d like to make a serious, yet lighthearted, reply to your comment, but I have a feeling that my intent can’t be properly transmitted without a wall of text, owing to the fact that keeping it brief gives it a nice punch, but can be misconstrued quite easily to those that don’t have a deep understanding of the workings of my mind, and I’d rather not deal with another ban. That wasn’t fun.
Given the way Joe brings it up constantly, they could ALWAYS see it. Sadly, they don’t have to have met him to know about it now since he would automatically bring it up in their presence.
I think what’s saddest is he kept on bringing it up but in one-on-one contexts where each person felt alone and impotent in their rage at him (see Dorothy just being exasperated because she’s dealt with him for multiple years) and socially discouraged from blowing up at him.
And he’s taken advantage of that to keep doing his thing.
But this is wide-spread. This is everyone and this is others seeing that others are also recognizing that he’s a gross asshole. And that’s the avalanche where finally the tide of respectability can change and it can be justified and supported to express your anger at being mistreated.
And that’s what he’s scared of. It’s not just one woman going “ugh”. It’s all the women and they are talking to each other and they’re not going to forget or let him blow this off like they are over-reacting.
I think Robin Williams put it best, even if he was talking about polygamy instead of reducing women to numbers:
” Even if you get a deaf woman and blind woman together, they WILL fucking communicate! And they will work out that YOU are the asshole!”
yep this is absolutely wonderful
Aww Danny, you’re my favorite next to Carla.
Carla would press a button and a projector would pop out of the ceiling and play the actual Dramatic Chipmunk clip on cue.
But the ukulele is a decent substitute.
Dangit, it’s a prairie dog, not a chipmunk. (Granted, they’re related, but not that closely…)
I suppose the real question is who spread it to everyone in the first place.
Actually no, the real question is how many weeks of comics is it gonna take for Joe to realize that the problem isn’t that the list got out, it’s that he thinks making one is okay in the first place. Television douchebags who rate women aren’t the type of people to aspire to be Joseph
I think it’s pretty obvious it was Rachel. She was disgusted with the idea when he brought it up and he offered her his RSS feed, so it’s highly likely her.
That was Raidah.
Well, Rachel was disgusted too, but she wasn’t offered the feed.
It’s possible we didn’t see all the conversation and he did offer it. Raidah seemed disgusted but not like she’d care enough to expose it. Rachel seems the likliest option.
Well, yeah, he could have, but the only one we know for sure he offered it to is Raidah.
All that does though is establish that he has a habit of giving this information out with little prompting. Aside from being a little creeped out by it she didn’t really seem outraged enough to want to expose him. He’s also friends with her boyfriend and I don’t see her wanting to potentially cause a conflict with him if it got back to her that she’s the one who leaked this information. Even if it’s doubtful Jacob would care it still comes across as something that could stir up unnecessary drama in her life.
It could easily be Rachel, but I think Raidah is a possibility as well, since we know he told her about the list. And tbh, even if Joe didn’t tell her, it wouldn’t take much asking around to find out about the list – he mentions the damn thing to half the people he talks to. All she’d have to do is talk to Roz and boom, list is out.
All this supposition about who it was makes me want it to be someone completely out of left field. Like maybe Dina.
Joe: “But whyyy?”
Dina: “You rated my girlfriend on your list. She does not even like men! Also, you only gave her a six.”
Joe: “Well, duh, she doesn’t like dudes! That knocks her down a bit, sheesh!”
Dina: *glares*
Joe: “But how did you even figure out my password?! You’re not a computer guy–girl–are you? –I mean, okay, you are Asian, but still…”
Dina: “I read it when you typed it in.”
Joe: “What?! How?!”
Dina: “I was standing right there…”
Frankly, as long as whoever did it isn’t Mary level asswad, they are my new hero.
Maybe next time he grabs at someone from behind that he doesn’t know, he’ll get the elbow in the ribs he so richly deserves.
That brings up an interesting question. Has there been anyone he has offered his list to who hasn’t reacted negatively to it? Like Dorothy rolls her eyes in disgust, Roz tells him to stop rating women, Raidah was actively disturbed, Joyce was angry, and Danny glared at him.
Like he kept doing it even though not a single person around him was like “yes, this thing you are spending all your time on is a useful and not at all creepy document and will surely be well-received by all the ladies who are so blessed as to witness it”.
They’re just not “cool” enough to understand his manly ways. Objectification of females is in these days. Plus, everyone needs to know how amazingly gifted he is at evaluating how good a girl will be in bed. It’s not just for him to show off his “do’s and don’t’s,” it’s a public service to show all the guys who they should be going after. I mean, except for the fact that it’s password protected. But, uh, it’s definitely all for Danny’s benefit. Yeah. He’ll appreciate Joe’s massive generosity one day.
(joe will never, ever learn…)
when a woman is mad at you at least she is paying attention to you
after all it’s not like she could *do* anything
This is what makes me wonder why everybody is assuming it’s just ONE person spreading this around.
Murder on the Orient Express, I figure.
Spreading? Sure.
Mostly people seem to be speculating about who got the list and intially shared it.
Ah, that’s easy. It’s Joe.
Joe brought it up to anyone who would listen and many who wouldn’t and handed out the password to likely at least half of them. He seems to have told a relatively large amount of women in not one particular group. He then proceeded to bring it up in his F-ing gender studies class. If from there the gender studies class women talked to themselves about how creepy it is its not real is it. One or more of there male friends had the feed thrust upon them against their wills kept it out of morbid curiosity and shares it, its not exactly a secret. Its a real thing they proceed to vent with their friend circles what a creep he is. Manye in those friend circles now if Joe is brought up mention how creepy he is. Everyone knows everyone agrees this is creepy everyone knows they stand to lose no face if they call him on it.
LOL. Thanks for the laugh.
I was more thinking about a Subject Zero
Junior high Danny, apparently.
It would be great if the next woman he approached in this way simply spat hard in his eyes and asked sweetly, “Did you like that? No? Too bad. That’s the closest you’re getting to my bodily fluids tonight, you loser.”
I’d be shocked if it were anyone else.
It was Mary. That’s why she was smiling. CONSERVATION OF DETAIL11!
Been saying for the last three days that it’s Raidah.
Mostly so that when I turn out to be wrong, you can all laugh at me. Hard.
Raidah just honestly doesn’t strike me as someone who would care enough to go this far to expose a guy as a creeper and Rachel very much does. But we’ll see.
I disagree. Now, admittedly, we haven’t seen that much of Raidah, but what we have seen of her, she does not seem afraid to call out that kind of BS for what it is.
I mean, let’s take a look at the Sarah situation.
Now, regardless of whether she actually is justified (a whole other discussion that I’m not delving into now), she honestly does think that Sarah is not a good influence on anyone. And she’s been vocal about this to Jacob. She’s generally cool with Jacob talking to other women, praising other women, even… But she thinks Sarah is toxic and she’s told Jacob as much time and time again.
And when she met Joe, she pretty much immediately recognised Joe’s behaviour for what it is, she immediately got pretty repulsed by it, and she immediately vocalised that repulsion… And Joe responded by giving her more of it.
Taking all of this into consideration, I find it rather likely that Raidah would be more than willing to expose Joe’s creepiness.
Obviously his cell phone leaked it
Dammit you weren’t here for that comments section so that reference won’t make senseNo, the knife leaked it!
Ring, ring ring ring ring ring
STILETTO PHOOOONE
IIIII’VE GOT THIS STABBING… SO UH- STABBING
*applause*
sorry dude, I’m not aroused by schadenfreude. it’s just not my thing.
I give shadenfreude a 4.
It depends on whose schaden is getting freuded, and to what degree it’s just said person is reaping what they’ve sown.
In Joe’s case, mmmmm, yeah, that’s some good schadenfreude.
Joe’s been giving away access to the list to basically anyone who asks so this was more or less inevitable
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/boyspizzaretreat/
The fool and his rep is soon ruined.
But even more people who don’t ask for it.
Wait, what does “practically” excised mean? Is Joyce still on that list in some form?
A Patreon comic from last year briefly shows his list, and Joyce is still there… rated with negative numbers, only so he remembers not to bother with her anymore. Which was the only reason he agreed to give her text support during the weekend at her parents’.
I gotta save up and get on Patreon.
You could also buy Book 6 when it becomes available, as that Patreon comic will be there.
But yes, get on the 5$ tier on Patreon. The perks for it are nice.
The ukulele has proved its worth.
Indeed! But only if Danny limits its use to dramatic sound effects from now on.
I give the ukulele about a week before someone smashes it.
So, sometime next summer?
Oh God, Gods, Goddesses, Alien Space Type Beings That Populated Our Planet, Spirit of the Earth or whatever someone believes in that actually grants dumb prayers like this one, let it be gone soon.
I REALLY want Danny to keep it as a new permanent element of his style. Not only are musical instruments cool, it has also enabled him to stand up to Joe’s shit…
Let him learn bass.
Ukuleles make my fillings vibrate.
But Danny and his ukulele can go everywhere Joe needs musical stingers. And, daaaang, I’m looking forward to several of them in this chapter.
Simple solution. Portable drum kit.
I read it with a different ‘pressure’ on the words, so for just a second my brain went “but won’t that make Danny ‘that kid with the fish?’ instead of the ukulele?”
*gets the Alvin & The Chipmunks version of “My Sharona” on the hacked Muzak*
The “Chipmunks On 16 Speed” version is shockingly good
Ok I may think the whole ukulele persona is Danny running away from his problems, but I gotta admit it made for a great comedic moment right there
Ah, cybering.
…..is that still a thing? I mean, I would think that at least the damn whippersnappers would have a new name for it. Cybering was around when I was a teenager, after all, and was having fun playing Age of Empires II.
Also: “I put on my robe and wizard hat.”
Thanks Spaz, I just snorted soda all over the place. XD
I’ve no idea, though I imagine that it’s now encompassed in “sexting.” I’m remembering it from a while back myself.
Having checked the date on Age of Empires II, I will say that cybering as a term at least lasted around for a while longer and seemed popular enough still around 2008.
Well, no, now there are cameras and you can actually see the middle aged guy that is claiming to be a teenage girl, cybering is pretty much a past tense situation. Except among the very desperate and those that actually wanted a middle aged guy in the first place, I guess. Hmmm, I guess those are the ones that were doing it before. Yeah, it still a thing.
Haha…ha…
Why would you have to be desperate OR a middle aged man just to be someone that cybers?
Specifically speaking, people in long distance relationships do it, especially if one or both lacks a cam.
Its also done as a form of RP although I’m not sure if you would count this as cybering
I should have a permenant disclaimer. In making light of this, I am in no way presenting myself as an authority on this subject.
Having been in a Long Distance Relationship, that falls firmly in the desperate category.
Not sure if there are hard and fast rules for what is and isn’t cybering. If you want to classify it as anything involving seperate spaces and an internet connection, then there is a lotta lovin’ going on. If you want to define it as a purely text based art form, then I hear Twitter has its adherents.
I am by no means presenting myself as an authority on this subject.
I get your point, but I will say that I don’t think all of LDR is desperation.
I was in one for two years before I moved to be with him, and we’re still together after five total.
Again, though, I do see your point. Thanks for clarifying
(and sorry for different gravitar, mobile has a different one than desktop)
It IS. My only sexual experience with a woman until the moment was basically doing that, one or two years ago. Sadly, her physical interest in me waned after our first and only date.
Danny is ready to provide scene music in what should be the hilarious takedown Joe’s had coming. And since it’s a Joe, the music can follow Joe anywhere!
Good choice of instrument, Danny.
Really: predictive spelling turned uke into Joe.
I mean, if we’re going with that scenario, I don’t think Joe’s ego could handle him being anything other than the seme.
Fun fact: I know enough about heraldry to have heard of seme.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variation_of_the_field#Sem.C3.A9
But not the one you used!
i like this side of danny. i hope he’s all IDGAF because he knows joe dug this hole hisself
Danny is ready to provide scene music in what should be the hilarious takedown Joe’s had coming. And since it’s a uke, the music can follow Joe anywhere!
Right choice of instrument, Danny. Keep your stinker at the ready, good egg.
“joe what should the password be”
“oh I don’t know I’m not a NERD, just pick the first one you think of.”
*five seconds later*
“oh, he’ll remember 123”
wait a minute, he’s had this list since *junior high*? …okay?!
this has been part of his image for a long-ass time
Yup, and he says he’s “got grannies in it”, which means it’s an in-depth boner catalog of every woman or those read as woman who crosses his path.
And that some of the people on there (if he hasn’t updated and deleted) were underaged at the time he was publicly spreading it around.
TBF, Joe did say that underage was one of his deal breakers, so hopefully any girls he knew at the time were his age and listed with a year (like, ‘As of X year in the past, they were age Y, meaning they’d be like 19 now’) rather than just the age at the time.
i mean like by grannies i’m assuming he means Helen Mirren
but maybe let’s not quantify women’s attractiveness in general
haha oh god i hadn’t even thought about the underaged thing
he was underaged too but like, still, yikes
idk!!!!!! maybe i am thinking too well of joe
i mean think about how many comments carol has gotten
it’s me, i’m the do-list cyberer
Amazi-Girl’s second supervillain! I mean, if she gave a damn about this.
And is alive and out of jail/the asylum.
Classic Danny and Joe shenanigans, only better than they ever actually were! Love it.
Hey Joe, maybe consider if it’s something you’d be ashamed to have people see, you should be ashamed to be doing it in the first place. Bob Newhart has some advice for you…
Mm hmm. If you have a thing and it’s not a sexuality or a gender identity or something like that, but you’re terrified that if it gets out it’ll lead to negative consequences and folks “getting the wrong idea about you”, then it’s probably not a great thing to have in secret either.
Agreed. He’s only sorry that he got caught.
He’s not ashamed that they see it he just hates that its causing him problems. Also that advice does not exactly hold up. You should not be ashamed that you occasionally need the bathroom, but please close the door.
If finding out about something you do will make people angry consider whether its worth it to stop to make them happy.
Hey. I’ll poop as publicly as I want. Don’t u try to infringe on my freedom of speech
Doctor Seuss said of the Nazis, “They weren’t sorry they started the war, they were sorry they lost it.”
Let me guess, Joe never changed the password since then, did he? Plus you know, talking about his do list with everyone.
And giving half of them the password.
Also just from a CS standpoint-I don’t know what kind of neurosis compelled you to ask Danny to code an app for your do-list, Joe, but surely a spreadsheet buried in some misleadingly titled directory on your PC could have sufficed.
I certainly hope this wasn’t some kind of web service that, you know, a hacker could find the URL to.
You’re an bimbo, Joe.
i need “You’re a bimbo, Joe” to be the new response to “Don’t rate women, Joe”
what even is a bimbo. have we ever known
I believe a bimbo is an attractive ditz
ah ok
it’s just…so silly and misogynistic but like. appreciate it being a dude label now
Bimbo is a baker, I buy their bread at Food Maxx all the time.
excellent
A Mexican bakery company. I when I worked at a convenience store I asked a Hispanic customer what it meant and he said it’s just a name.
Also Betty Boop’s dog sidekick, at one point, at least. Not sure if the “ditzy but cute woman” meaning was around in the late Twenties yet or not, but it may be worth pointing out that Bimbo was male.
–Huh, from Wikipedia: “The name Bimbo was chosen because in the 1920s the word was mostly associated with men who liked to fight.”
(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimbo_(Fleischer_Studios) )
Also apparently he was her boyfriend, not her sidekick; she just got more popular.
–Anyways, apparently “bimbo” works fine for guys as well, ha ha, although apparently the meaning was wholly different. But “Ditzy but attractive” (or “attractive but ditzy”) without gender being specified seems to be perfectly legit.
And wow, am I putting too much thought into this! XD
*Waits for Stephen Bierce to put Jim Reeves’s “Bimbo” on the hacked muzak*
Bimbo is a little boy who’s got a million friends.
I thought it was an annoying puppet on the Uncle Bobby Show.
It was an RSS feed apparently.
He wanted to share it.
He thought he was making an objective record that everyone would want to see to make sure that they were properly being attracted to the “8s and above” as well as notice him sleeping and pursuing said “8s and above”.
In short, he thought this would be a bro record so all his bros would slap him on the back and go “woo, dude, you nailed an (arbitrarily high number value used in place of a human being’s actual humanity), clearly you are a truly masculine dude full of macho machismo manliness and we’ll never ever suspect you’re a scared kid using toxic masculinity to hide from your real fears of processing emotions”.
I suspect part of the reason he’s upset is it got out and its popping that fantasy. No one thinks he’s manly for doing this. They think he’s creepy and weird and invasive.
Also, shockingly, no one is going to hook up with the general sleaze he’s been exposed as.
I didn’t know Willis was a fan of Order of the Stick!
Or does that gag extend beyond Elan’s use of it?
Oooooh yeah it does.
For instance, “Dun dun dun, dramatic reverb” was a joke that showed up on Angry Beavers a few times.
Ah, here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9n9iR7iJNE
That’s “BUMM BUMM BUMM”, though.
It’s different.
So Danny’s prowess was based on his CHA not his STR, no wonder he’s so weak.
Level classing in bard would benefit him there. Sadly, Gamers require high DEX.
‘Dun dun duuuuun’ has been the stock dramatic sting forever. It’s called ‘Shock Horror (a)’ and was composed by Dick Walter. The earliest credited use of it on IMdB is from 1996, but I’m certain it goes earlier than that.
…oh! Oh right! I just understood the alt-text now!! I know that clip!!!
Oh, definitely; I’m sure I heard it or a variation of it on the David Letterman Show in the late Eighties as a running gag, and it was old and schlocky then.
And it was Captain chaos’s theme music.
I sense some people are going to be surprised at their rankings… I. E. Joyce? !?
I have a feeling Joyce would be completely unsurprised/apathetic, actually.
I think Joyce would be suuuuper creeped out. She may or may not be able to express why until somebody else puts sold words to it, but, she’s got plenty of precedent for punching Joe in the face, so there’s that.
(Er, without the word ‘sold’. I’m not sure what my autocorrect was even replacing, there.)
Isn’t Joyce excised from the list?
No, she’s not. She’s been ‘practically excised’, meaning she’s still there, but he won’t do anything about it (probably with a whiny rant about how she won’t fuck him, possibly with a very justified warning about her hitting him on a date and her asking rude questions about his religion in place of a rant about how big her boobs are).
Certainly with no mention of their online chat over the weekend she was away or any concerns or emotions that might have come out of that. No way, no how.
I’m confused. Is this list supposed to be online or not?
Even if only a few people are meant to see it, those few could still, like, show it to others.
Are you really surprised Joe doesn’t realize women exist and do things when he’s not actively observing them?
Wait wait wait. What?!?
You mean girl folks aren’t just sex props that pop into and out of existence as a man’s eyes scan over them? Next you’re going to say they have their own entire lives that expand beyond their sexual utility for a man or something!
Shock! Hearsay!
Hmm, sounds similar to a movie about two characters from a Shakespeare play.
It’s online and password protected, but he gives the feed to everyone he meets so.
yeah, its online. in an early page joe mentioned he had a list and used his phone when talking about it.
Bros are often surprised and confused by the behavior of dudes who are not bros.
Rot- rot-
Rotate your chipmunk
Rotate your chipmunk for dramatic effect
(for dramatic effect)
Reminds me of the time I came across a site that had a password protected section but it was all handled with JavaScript. So the actual password was right there in the source code.
The password wasn’t really for anything serious, thank goodness, but it was kind of funny in a “oh no, baby, what is you doin?” kind of way.
Also, what did he think he needed a list for in JUNIOR HIGH?! That’s like middle school, right?
And why did he need an RSS feed for it in the first place?
*sigh* WTF Joe. WTF.
From the second he started puberty he’s had this. Which means he likely didn’t just stumble on this idea. It likely was carefully taught by either the online community he hung out with or more likely by his dad.
Hell, his dad probably taught him the “system” so his son would know how to “be a proper man” and “treat women right”.
If that”s the case, then how apropos this comic aired on Father’s Day.
*awards Danny +1 Internet*
Ok the ukulele can stay. The hat still needs to prove its worth.
C’mon, the cap’s endearing.
It doesn’t need to prove its worth of its lovable.
It’s like a M-ascot cap.
They come as a set, you can’t have one without the other.
100% ready for Joe to get soooooo much shit for this wherever he goes for as long as this comic runs. I have traumatic flashbacks from when this happened during my school days and I’ve baaaaasically been waiting for a story where the perpetrator of such a list gets what’s coming to him, so I hope this delivers. I mean, no pressure or anything lol.
Also, has anyone made a ‘Joe Rosenthal, welcome to your tape’ joke yet, if not lemme get that in there too^^
Hey, how’s it going Internet Shame List buddy?
When I was in high school someone put up a “Why Tarmaniel should kill himself” website. It featured ripped sprite animations from Doom as “helpful suggestions.” Since this occurred in the 90s, a teenager having his own website was fairly novel and so word of it spread quickly. I started getting asked about/made fun of over it by random adults that weren’t even connected to my high school. Needless to say, that was not a fun time in my life. It was also when I learned the hard way that nobody really cares about your mental health, as pretty much everyone I complained to about it told me to just suck it up and deal with it, because “words can’t hurt you if you don’t let them.”
Oh man, that sucks and I am so sorry that happened to you!
Mine was all analogue actually, it was an old school pen & paper list (also in the 90s), but it was almost this exact thing from the comic. Names of girls and what was good/bad about them. And as the fat, insecure, nerdy girl you can imagine it said no good things about me. In fact it said quite devastating things about me. Not that it matters how you ‘ranked’ or whatever, no one should be ranked. Or told to kill themselves. *hugs*
And you have a point as well about schools often, at least back then, being unequipped to deal with kids who are struggling with mental health. But in my adult life, therapy has helped me so much. Like, I’m in my 30s and I’m still working through my years of teenage bullying, because that took a sledge hammer to my self-esteem and did some lasting fucking damage. Kids can be brutal, eh?
Hope you’re doing well <3
I want to be shocked that *adults* thought it’d be appropriate to give you shit that another adolescent thought it was acceptable to make an entire website for that, but people are terrible and suggested suicides are all fun and games until someone actually does it and HOW could we have KNOWN, there were NO SIGNS, such a tragedy.
I’m sorry about the assholes in your past and admire the perseverance it took for you to survive them.
That is awful, I am so sorry you had to deal with that. And adults should have shut that shit right down. This is why anti-bullying policies and laws matter.
So glad you are here with us now.
“Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words may break my heart,” is a far better and more apt version of the aphorism. The old version can go suck a sick.
I’m lucky enough that the Internet wasn’t a thing even at the local BBS level until I hit college. Nevertheless, bullying and harassment could be and was horrible, especially in a small town where classes were sorted by last name, and the population stayed fairly stable, so you were stuck with that one asshole in your class for pretty much your entire school life.
A friend of mine was harassed so much (and beat up so regularly, poor kid–his arms were broken so often that one time I saw him get one broken just from being shoved casually aside and hitting a frame around a bulletin board at I guess a bad angle because the thing was projecting only about 1/2 an inch and it didn’t look like he hit it that hard)–anyways, in Grade 12, a few months before graduation, he finally couldn’t take it anymore and jumped off a bridge on the way home from school.
I’m glad you were able to hang in there. And I’m glad that, finally, schools and laws are beginning to take this sort of thing more seriously.
My friend saw a psychologist (whom he hated) and was prescribed I think lithium (which he also hated); but if the abuse doesn’t actually stop, then therapy and drugs can only do so much. 🙁
It always surprises me when people answer to that with suicide instead of giving back as much as they can and kill a bunch of people. School was very painful for me too, and my basic reaction always was to give back as much as I could.
Well I’ll be. I’m not on Patreon but I put out the DUN-DUN-DUN! in a comment yesterday.
Danny, you’re my hero.
badum pishhh
– went Sayid
Alright I got it.
Joe, determined to find out who spread the list around, decides to enlist someone who excels at ferreting out the truth and snooping.
He texts Dorothy. And that’s how we get our segue back to the events of the Ryan night!
Didn’t know there was someone around there with that level of hacking prowess…could this be the work of dark power-451 ?
I’m not sure if Professor Alex in this universe is explicitly the same person as darkpower451 in the Walkyverse, but either way, I think the character’s already spoken for.
Since Junior High….Jesus.
My money is on Rachel, since we know she took exception to being rated a few comics back. (It probably didn’t help that she was already pissed with Ruth still being RA and wanted to spread the pain) If she is as smart as she is in the other universes, she could easily acquire Joe’s info and find a way to distribute it so that Joe gets discredited and basically has never has a chance to get with anymore girls, at least on her floor.
(Other theory, but less likely, she thought like Joe and put up a list with a rating system that is surprisingly accurate, for the same reason.)
Of course this is all speculation.
I think it’s obviously Roz because this sort of activism is WHAT SHE DOES.
* Public sex tape to protest sister
* Trying to out her sister via lesbian relationship
* Taking down Dorothy as RA
She’s very notably an activist but always aimed at people she DIRECTLY KNOWS.
She’s Revenge Lady.
This… isn’t really activism. Like, I approve entirely of it, but this is revenge.
Roz would likely have no objection to Joe’s awfulness being exposed, but Rachel seems far more likely. She actually has the knowledge to do it, and has been much more recently been shown to be immediately done with Joe’s shit.
A person she barely knows and briefly referenced it? Joe and Rachel have literally met once. That seems a bit impersonal for it. I say that as someone glad anyone did it.
Some good points as always, except a few things…
I don’t think Roz really had any bad blood with Joe. They were there when they “needed” each other and nothing more really. Roz probably knew Joe was awful, but the way they left things and their reaction to each other (or little of it) seemed to show she really didn’t have that much of a problem with him, at least enough to destroy his reputation like this. She probably has more of a beef with Mary being… well Mary (then again who doesn’t)
As for “literally met once”, even if that might be true, Rachel is very observant and probably noticed Joe’s behavior well before he talked with her and ranked her. Also note that grudges have started for far less in real life. A girl I knew got shoved by another girl in high school, and it started a bitter hatred that lasted throughout high school. Considering Rachel’s rant and fury at Ruth and how she probably felt Ruth staying an RA was BS, she could have already been in a bad enough mood and maybe saw she could actually get some “justice” on someone.
Finally, think of the timing. Why would Roz go after Joe now? It would make more sense if she went after him when the sex tape leaked, (though it was her that “leaked” it if I am not mistaken), Roz has more of a grudge on a lot more people than Joe at least at this point.
Once again, all speculation, but trying to go off evidence and observation.
OK, so, was I just too young to understand the complexities of this when I was younger? Because I don’t remember being appalled by Barney Stinson (aware that it was shallow and stupid, but not apalled), but I’m instinctively repelled by Joe’s behavior. Is there anything really different about them, or is it just NPH’s general awesomeness?
Barney annoyed the absolute fuck out of me. Not just for the lengths he went to tricking women interested in relationships into banging him, but also for being a massive dick to Ted
Yeah, that’s true. He was that abusive type of person who does have a place for you in his heart but just doesn’t respect your decisions and imposes his ideals onto you. Gah, I’ve fallen prey to that type myself (some dominants from a humiliation chat room on furry Telegram who pressured me into being their servant; one originally was serving under the other, and they both just kind of “assumed” I was their official sub after I RP’d with them or obeyed what I thought were casual orders). It’s so friggin’ stressful to be pressured like that. It’s a good thing I do have SOME lines drawn that I won’t do for them… jeez, I would still be in that role otherwise. I am grateful to know the kind of people to look out for now, at any rate.
I literally have seen two episodes of that show. (I avoid it because I watch enough TV, and someday I may wish to watch it in order to find out the Big Ending.)
I have one tiny shred of respect for Joe in that he doesn’t make any lovey-dovey talk (that we know of) about becoming anyone’s boyfriend, looking for a LTR, putting “his wild days behind him”, “you’re different, I feel a deep emotional connection with you”, etc., in order to get into a girl’s panties.
Does Barney Stinson do this kind of thing?
He got better but the writers would frequently regress any and all character development at least once a season but honestly do yourself a favor and never watch that show. The series finale was the most horrifically bad, disappointing, misogynist piece of garbage I’ve ever watched and completely burned all the love I ever had for the show out of my heart forever. If you can’t help yourself and want to watch anyway quit after season 4.
Is it because Barney doesn’t really seem like the suave player type? He’s a player, sure, but his game sucks… or it seems like it should suck, but girls go for it anyway. Every over-the-top, transparent maneuver works, even though he seems so patently ridiculous. Still, even unbelievably gullible girls don’t deserve to be objectified. Even if the ditzy, high-pitched, blonde stereotype is … well, it’s almost as hard to be around as the macho, misogynistic he-man mentality Joe embodies.
Maybe I’m just already predisposed against the extremes of hypermasculinity/hyperfemininity. Some people seem to make it their business to conform to as many gender generalizations as possible. woot for androgynity
I’m also hella tired, so I may be rambling
My guess is that its the comment section.
But like, when you’re introduced to Joe, it’s just like, why the fuck is he so… predatory and misogynistic? It’s just the immediate impression I have of him. He seems so creepy.
So it’s not the comments section… if anything, the more time I’ve read this webcomic, the more inured I become to Joe just due to exposure. White noise kinda thing. Not that the disgust isn’t there, it’s just diminished. It probably wouldn’t be just “white noise” if I weren’t a cis white guy who keeps his uncertain sexual/romantic preferences to himself, because I can imagine this kind of experience irl isn’t something that ever really stops hurting. idk
anyway, it’s good to have an arc focusing on Joe, because he is such a background character, and now we get reminded of what a sick shit he is. before hopefully he begins to learn the error of his ways?
I’m thinking it’s an age thing. Now that you’re older, your brain is more developed, and you’ve learned/become better at critical thinking, so you can recognize social norms and how fucked up some things in society are. That’s my experience anyway.
IMHO though, Barney is a bit more charming than Joe, in a kind of goofy way? So that might also be part of it as well
It’s also the presentation. I haven’t watched enough to know how Barney comes off in the show, but it’s pretty obvious here that the narrative sympathy isn’t with Joe. He’s presented as creepy.
Comic Reactions:
Oh hey, consequences. Look at that. And also, wow, what an unfortunate strip to come out during the Cosby mistrial and the giant slap in the face that was for survivors (not to mention right after the cop who murdered Philandro Castle was allowed to walk with no charges*). Cause it means I’m definitely in a headspace to coldly enjoy a magical fake world where there are actual consequences for cis guys who commit crimes against those with less social power than them.
*The Cosby decision destroys me for obvious reasons, but the Castle decision rips me up almost as much. Like, not only is it yet another example of a black man being gunned down and his murderer facing literally zero consequences and put right back on the police force to murder again. But Castle was on top of that a school employee. And so this just brings back right after the shooting all those kids crying because their favorite lunch worker who remembered all their allergies and was so nice to everyone was gone. And it just makes me cry to imagine all those kids having to have their parents or the school explain to them that the man who took that man away from them faced no consequences for it. Like, gyah!
Panel 1: Ugh… so there’s this thing a certain type of gross guy does sometimes where they’ll have a whole system of being super gross and invasive towards women and trade secrets on how to be gross and invasive, but freak out when their little actions get revealed.
Like, when it was just a bunch of like-minded guys, it was all good and masculine and “all in good fun”, but once women see it, expose it, and denounce it publicly, suddenly they are innocent lambs done wrong by evil feminists “just trying to ruin good men”.
And there’s a lesson here. If you think a marginalized group will hate it if they were to know you were doing something. If you think the people in your life would be horrified to learn how you spend your free time on your hobbies? Maybe your hobbies are bad and harmful and shouldn’t be being done.
And what’s sickest about this is that Joe is still not even at the level of owning the fuck up he’s committed and the wrong he’s enacted. He’s still pulling a Donald Trump of complaining about his misdeeds being leaked rather than the fact he had misdeeds that shouldn’t have been done in the first place.
And that parallel does not make me inclined to be overly forgiving of Joe here. He knew this was the likely end of his shitty actions. People have told him this was the likely end of his shitty actions. People have begged with him to stop or knock it off and he’s kept doing it. And now that the easily forseeable has happened, he’s complaining about it getting leaked as if that’s the real issue here.
it kinda seems more like a Hillary Clinton tbh.
“Somebody leaked all this stuff that says I did bad stuff. I did nothing wrong, BUT THE MOST WRONG THING IS THAT IT GO OUT!”
*squints*
okay, it could be either one.
Except they found jack shit on Clinton. You can fuck right off with that false equivalence
Except Hillary Clinton didn’t do anything wrong. What got out was a big fat pile of nothing that a giant hate machine tried desperately to spin into something and which was actively released as an intentional means of discrediting her campaign on behalf of people who hated her for being an accomplished woman.
That’s a whole other kettle of fish to “I did horrible things and someone told somebody about that and that’s the real crime”.
I’m not a big fan of Hillary Clinton in the fact I considered her a warmongering technocrat who was using the Democratic Party as her own personal tool rather than a reflection of the people’s will (yes, I am a Bernie fan) but the “scandal” about her was nothing. Nothing compared to a human avatar of the god of male white privilege and misogyny as well as corruption getting elected. I think the fact the “scandal” exists goes to show her enemies did everything they could to invent one where the ones she could actually be criticized for are the ones they couldn’t admit to their base (she liked murdering people with robots too much).
Yup. This.
It depends which scandal to which you refer.
Benghazi/E-mail server, fine. I 100% agree with you.
DNC Primary–there is some shit there.
Generally, the DNC scandal business is real shady dealings like many of her policies. These are all things which deserved investigation and were things legitimate news sources and voters should have taken her to task for.
Generally, Republicans brought up the e-mail servers and other business because they had no interest in calling the pot black when they were engaged in so much worse election rigging and material. They also couldn’t criticize her war policies because their candidates were all about being worse.
one last note: Yes, what she did pales in comparison to what Trump has done.
That doesn’t change the fact that when the DNC e-mails WERE leaked, the big fuss was not about the CONTENT of the E-mails, but that they were leaked at all.
Again, I’ll be the first to admit that in a lot of it there’s not much (oh noes, Pizza orders). But there are certain parts of it that, well…..
Was not trying to equivocate the two, but there is a certain similarity, even while one is magnitudes worse than the other.
Fart, I disagree. If you’re referring to the E-mail server thing or the Clinton Foundation, fine.
But she and her campaign were found to have been doing some damn shady things when it came to the Primaries, ie Donna Brazile, Debbie Wasserman-Schulz, etc. That is not “jack shit”
I’ve got…..well, okay, I do have a few things against her for specific actions she and her campaign took during said campaign.
I am not referring to any legal issues with regards to the e-mail server, Clinton Foundation, etc.
I’m referring to the fuckery that was taking place through the Primaries–Donna Brazile, blatant and brazen warping of the Primary Process, Debbie Wasserman-Schulz, DNC money-laundering money into her campaign, etc…..and her outright refusal to admit that she ran her General campaign in anything but perfection. Instead insisting that it was everyone else BUT her that fucked up the election results (ie her not going to certain states despite folks from there BEGGING her to go).
No. No they weren’t. Certainly not in comparison to Bernie’s followers who actively harassed folks out of participating in caucuses and being able to access their full voting rights.
You have fallen for a lot of right-wing bullshit that got intentionally spread around the left-wing in the hopes of inspiring Bernie Sanders voters to refuse to support Hillary Clinton in the general election.
Like, I voted for the guy, but I’m also not going to pretend that Hillary Clinton is some big boogeyman. Especially not now when good friends of mine are having their family hunted like dogs by ICE and the rest of my friends are wondering how many more years they’ll be allowed to live under our stolen democracy.
Like, for fuck’s sake. She’s not Satan, she’s just an establishment Democratic politician with some really strong liberal values who ran on one of the most progressive platforms everywhere and got fucked over by one of the biggest screw-jobs in modern American history.
If she had been elected, we wouldn’t be fearing for our lives. We’d have health insurance, we’d have a functioning government, and my friends and I would still have the civil rights that were stolen from us and we wouldn’t be being hunted by over-empowered neo-nazis who see this as a giant “yes, you can murder all the (slur for gay men)”.
Like, I’m sorry to be firm on this, but I have less than zero patience for this fucking primary ad nauseum bullshit after it gave us the endless nightmare I’m burning literally all of my energy to try and survive.
I disagree in some respects, Cerberus because I think Hillary certainly did a lot shady politicking to shut out Sanders as a candidate and possible even white collar crime. Certainly, I believe she subverted the electoral process. I don’t like many of her policies and treatment of powers either.
But if I had a time machine, I’d stuff every ballot box in the United States to get her elected because it’s been months of destroying infrastructure and laws to support everyone who isn’t white, rich, cis, heterosexual, and plenty of people who are those as well. Because we still live on Earth and he’s destroying that too.
George W Bush is still worse because he killed probably around a million people and while I still reluctantly support the Afghanistan war, you can’t paint around the fact he legalized torture, kidnapping, and assassination programs. Trump hasn’t done anything as bad–yet. Still, I believe it when he comes on screen and says Trump is an embarrassment.
Not really. The DNC didn’t like him because he wasn’t a democrat and so a lot of the machine supported Hillary and threw their money and support behind her.
Most of the accusations of subverting democracy were a bunch of bullshit (often really racist bullshit that tried to argue that non-white voters voting was somehow “cheating” Bernie Sanders) and deeply ironic now that we live in a fascist nightmare where our votes were literally fucking stolen.
And I’m so very tired of it.
I’m also very tired of it. But I hope you’ll allow me one add:
Self-professed media geek who’s been reading Columbia Journalism Review since before the internet here.
People who try to make a mountain out of this molehill put their utter faith in the unfalsibility of every email leaked. The material was hacked, went through two sets of hands with axes to grind against Hillary and / or the DNC, and every single comma, clause and semicolon was treated like it was carved in fucking stone. Covered to a faretheewell by a media who would not have to pay any price for getting things wrong on the subject of HRC.
If I try to suggest to these folks that the “evidence” has no chain of custody, no curation, no verification, things have been left out, added, changed, or made up out of whole cloth, they look at me like I’m part of the conspiracy.
I filed stories for a little college newspaper with a staff who did this for fun (well, it was fun to us). No school of journalism at my college, no media pros cut their teeth there, no Pulitzers. And if I submitted this stuff to my editor, she’da laughed her ass off at me.
(My own copyedit error: Spaz is not “people” or “these folks” I mention in my post. I’m referring to many others I know. Apologies to Spaz, and I wish I had an edit button.)
Also, it might be worth noting why you demand personal apologies from Hillary Clinton for failing a standard of perfection when she won by 3 million votes against what is quickly revealing itself to be the biggest theft of an election we’ve had in our nation’s history, with massive disenfranchisement and multiple fucking groups doing everything in their power to try and bring her down.
And why you believe that there was “primary fuckery” when no amount of DNC being bitter about Sanders still campaigning against her when he was knocked out mathematically would change that he didn’t have the votes to win.
Or why you believe that Sanders is immune to being corrupt or flawed or responsible for his primary loss.
Or why you think it’s important to still be ringing this dead bell when Bernie himself was like “yeah, we lost fair and square and I support Clinton 100%”.
I dunno, is Trump’s election fraud worse than Bush and Gore? I can’t help wonder about the alternate universe where both Gore and Hillary won the electoral vote. Which, honestly, Gore did but those votes were destroyed.
*imagines wistfully* Yeah. It’d be pretty great.
Bush/Gore was a pretty clean election compared to Trump/Clinton. When you factor in a global fake news trend, Russian hacking, and a Congress willing to just cross its arms and run out any clocks it could, on this scale, this is something completely new.
And ValdVin, you are 100% right about the chain of “evidence” re: the Clinton emails. Also notable is that the Republicans were hacked too, but their emails were not released. That sounds like blackmail.
And I agree. In the end I did end up voting for her. She is not the big boogey-man that it was made out to be, but she’s also not the god-damn saint a lot of people are trying to make her out to be.
I absolutely agree that she would have been better than trump. Absolutely zero question.
I just have issues with her based on the campaign she ran.
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes she is better than Trump. And I admit I don’t have to deal with a lot of the things you and your friends have to deal with on a daily basis.
I’m not trying to say that she and Trump are equal. I just have specific issues that did not, in the end, outweigh the benefits of her becoming our president.
Do you have links for the Bernie harrassment, Cerb? Not being sarcastic or passive-aggressive or any shit like that. I’m genuinely curious. I never heard of anything like that. Granted, I was firmly in the Bernie camp at the time, and partisan blinders are a hell of a thing.
But I do try to see around them.
Here you go: http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-sanders-convention-20160517-snap-story.html
There’s also some good rundown post-mortems regarding specific harassment Hillary Clinton supporters got including death threats and sexualized harassment. Sady Doyle had some stuff up today about the folks who messaged her pictures of guns with “I’m coming for you” and harassed her for months for supporting Clinton. Dara Lind of Vox had a good breakdown of “bernie bro” harassment and Sarah Lerner has a good medium post breakdown of some of the sustained harassment Clinton supporters got in the primary. John Oliver also had a big breakdown of the issues surrounding caucuses in particular.
Honestly, though, I’d trade my left kidney for either of them to be the President right now and finally being able to go to bed reliably at night.
Actual last post:
Thanks Cerb. I was in the Bernie bubble and this flew entirely under my radar. I have reading to do.
Oh my god please fuck further off with that.
Even if it were actually true, none of that shit even approaches the same ballpark as Trump, on any level. He literally blames everything someone else, even that raid in Yemen that he only approved because Obama thought it was a bad idea.
The man is making money off his decisions as president, while obstructing justice. His first act of office was to empty out hundreds of important posts even though he has STILL not nominated replacements for more than a fraction of them. We just had a major naval incident off the sea of Japan, butt we have neither an ambassador to Japan, OR a Secretary of the Navy.
Not to mention openly admitting to sexual assault, being a racist, Islamophobic, homophobic, and completely incompetent jackass who keeps alienating our allies while praising mass murderers and dictators.
But sure, bud. They’re exactly the same
I AGREE.
All of those points are absolutely valid.
I was *NEVER* trying to make an equivalency argument. I am very sorry that you took it that way and I *am* sorry that I made it. Looking back I do see that it wasn’t anywhere near as valid as it sounded in my head.
I *absolutely* agree that Trump is everything you say and more. ZERO question.
I NEVER meant to equivocate anything. I’m sorry I wrote it like that and I’m sorry that it came off like that and I’m sorry that I wrote it too soon…..as in within a decade of the orange douche being in office.
All campaigns do shady things. This is the nature of big time politics. Don’t watch the sausage being made. It’s nasty.
I was honestly surprised when the emails were released that it wasn’t worse. There were some questionable things, but no serious rat-fuckery. Looking a little more closely, I think it was partly because it wasn’t needed – She had a dominant lead the whole way. She never even really ran traditional campaign attacks against Sanders. She didn’t need to.
If she didn’t need to do that, thinking she needed to cheat seems ridiculous.
Lay off the Fox News and Breitbart.
see long post directly above. Not referring to Clinton Foundation, Benghazi, or Server. I have specific complaints about her and the Primary, and her refusal to own up to it.
She’s owned up to making mistakes. Some people will never be happy unless she accepts 100% of the blame and begs for forgiveness for having gotten more votes than any Democrat in history besides Obama.
It’s like in Joss Whedon’s leaked Wonder Woman script. Some folks seem to be really invested in seeing a powerful woman torn apart and made to admit that she’s a lowly wretch who had no business trying to have power in the first place.
Like, for fuck’s sake. She was a really good politician who was responsive to constituents, fought for some real important causes, and showed a good record of listening to folks regarding fuck ups and owning them (certainly way more than her husband).
And we’ve never demanded this level of public destruction for any previous Democratic candidate. We didn’t do this to Kerry or to Gore or to Dukakis.
And it’s hard not to see it as having to do with her gender when the same thing happens to powerful women in every field, even the fictional ones.
Okay, I’m going to stop posting after this because this is getting a bit out of hand, and I take full responsibility for ramping it up.
I will say that I have never been that politically aware until the last 3 years or so, so I don’t really have a frame of reference for previous elections. I wasn’t part of the “we” or “us” back then.
I was raised in a fundie christian right-wing househould, and didn’t even realise how liberal I was until I took careful stock of my political beliefs about 3-4 years ago or so.
As far as I’m concerned I don’t think (it is certainly conceivable) that it has to do with her being the right-wing boogey-man or a woman as far as I’m concerned.
It is entirely possible that Bernie was the politician that made me actually sit up and take notice to politics at all, and that yeah, maybe there is more scrutiny this time around than any other. I honestly don’t know and can’t tell, because I genuinely didn’t give a shit and didn’t really vote in any previous election in my life. Not to mention considering myself far, far more right than I actually was and am.
But I really don’t have any other frame of political reference other than this election cycle.
I’m going to walk away from the keyboard now. I’m sorry to have caused this row it was not my intention, and I honestly don’t think when it comes to me it has anything to do with her as a woman.
Again, I was not trying to make any equivalencies, I shouldn’t have posted that, and if I had I certainly should have done it totally different.
one last thing: You two have certainly raised good points, and I will be thinking them over in the days to come.
*hugs* We’re good.
👍 likewise
……I’m going to work on swearing less in comment sections. It is an issue of mine, and looking back I can see it was probably inflammatory.
*hugs*
That WW script by Joss Whedon was horrifying, but completely expected from him.
“where there are actual consequences for cis guys who commit crimes against those with less social power than them.”
What crimes has Joe committed?
Meanwhile Ruth’s grandfather, a real abuser of those weaker than him, is lord of all he surveys.
I was more referring to Cosby and Castle’s murderer and the fact that Dumbing-world often has its terrible patriarch characters eventually get some comeupance for it.
As far as I’m aware Joe hasn’t gone much beyond sexual harassment and dancing way closer to the line of non-consent than I’d personally prefer.
He’s been a sleazy, sexually harassing dickbag, which is also something cis white dudes tend to get a lot more leeway about.
Someone else out there being a bigger asshole doesn’t excuse his behavior
I find it interesting that when you look at the actual crimes committed by the cast Joe is pretty low in that Ruth, Amber, Billie, Joyce, Sarah, Sal and Mike could all be more or less argued to have physically assaulted people whereas Joe hasn’t
Hell Joe has been assaulted by Mike and Joyce and even stopped Joyce from being assaulted by Mike
None of which excuses his behavior of course
You DO understand that something doesn’t have to be criminal in order to be shitty behavior, right?
Not to mention that context matters. Joe isn’t acting to defend someone’s life, or under extreme emotional duress, or even apologetic afterward. Not that any other character just gets a free pass for their bad behavior.
Also – sexual harassment IS illegal. It’s just incredibly unlikely to end in jail time. So, yeah, that is definitely a crime Joe commits.
Yeah true I wrote that wrong, I meant to say that Joes actual crimes are on a lower scale then others not that he hasn’t committee any at all
His behavior is very shitty, no argument there but is it shittier then when Sarah punched Raidah?
When Joyce joined in punching Joe when he was on the ground?
How about Amber stalking Sal?
Have Joe’s persistently, repeatedly unapologetically shitty actions over the course of the entire comic been worse than individual shitty actions by several other characters?
Sarah, Joyce and Amazi-Girl have all apologized and been shown to feel remorse for those actions. Those events have been depicted as the characters at their worst. Each and every one of those characters has absolutely done amazing, selfless things to earn my willingness to forgive them. Sarah can assault whoever the fuck she wants after the way she came to Joyce’s rescue. Joyce has repeatedly gone to incredible lengths to do right by her friends, even when it put her life at risk, when it might cost her her family and community, and even when she had to fight through PTSD just to get to her friend and apologize that much sooner. Amazi-Girl risked her life to save a total stranger simply because she was asked.
What exactly has Joe ever done that should make me want to shrug off the bad things?
Joe’s shitty behavior, while lesser in magnitude, is consistent in its crappyness. It’s his baseline. We only occasionally get a glimpse of the non-garbage person underneath.
And the thing is, those glimpses make me angrier at him. I liked the Joe that was texting with Joyce and offering real advice for surviving the weekend with her family, and the one who genuinely cares about Danny. I cannot wait for THAT guy to emerge out of the septic tank of toxic masculinity and misogyny that he’s submerged himself in.
I don’t even actually HATE Joe. I hate his behavior. I wouldn’t even feel the need to complain about it so much if it weren’t for the people (and I’m not even referring to you here) who seem intent on downplaying the very real harm done by acting the way he does.
No, it isn’t.
But those behaviors were pretty much one offs, or the characters have otherwise made up for it.
Sarah acknowledged it was wrong and apologized to Raidah. Has not punched her at subsequent meetings.
I don’t think Joyce has specifically apologized, but she’s definitely grown as a character enough not to do the same thing again.
Amazi-Girl and Sal have teamed up and she seem to be over her problems with Sal. Even Amber is only slightly freaking out in her presence now.
Character growth makes a difference. Joe is, so far, still Joe. He’s still doing the same shitty things he’s been doing all along.
I thought I read that Cosby will be re-tried — he’s not off the hook yet.
Also, the cop who shot Castile was just fired.
So, not zero consequences… but still far less than they justly deserve.
Don’t rate women, Joe.
Dew the Do!
……I’ll just be over here, with Danny.
….the hat and ukelele are growing on me.
Best use of a uke.
Panel 1 (cont): And the password thing… like Danny notes one panel later that his security was a joke that could be bypassed in a second, but it could have been secured by the ultimate white-hat team on the planet and this is still how everything would end.
Because no security system is secure enough against people. And Joe has been handing out his list’s RSS feed and password to everyone he stumbles across like it was candy and telling everyone else it exists and they should find it. Eventually that was going to bite him on the ass and likely has bitten the women he has rated on the ass before this. You think the D-bros Ryan hangs out with, if they had this list, wouldn’t be going out of their way to find and mock the “5s and below” or stalk the “8s and up”?
Like, beyond the fact that it was never protected, the information in it is so harmful to the people inside of it on top of it being a gross boner update guide.
And it’s worth noting as this finally falls apart on him despite the gentle warnings Danny and Dorothy have given him for years that this was coming, how his actions with said list have only highlighted how utterly bad he is at boundaries.
Like, the people he threw his list at frequently didn’t want it or were actively in the process of rejecting it or going through their own stuff and didn’t need this as well.
And like, no one is that selectively bad at consent. That they can’t tell someone going “the thought of this list existing makes me sick” or Danny’s pained glare were actually signs of not wanting something and still be able to navigate any form of society without being arrested.
So Joe has known that Danny didn’t want to hear his boner update on his very recently ex girlfriend, that most women hate to know this thing exists, that Raidah was actively repulsed by its existence and he still tried to shove it in everyone’s faces.
But hey, now that that isn’t just a “teensy tiny” form of sexual harassment and non-consensual power play but something with real consequences, he’s freaking out.
Yeah, all out of sympathy for that, but hey, maybe this is where healing can begin and he can start excising out all the toxic masculinity and build a healthy masculinity and a healthy hobby that isn’t systematically dehumanizing women.
Panel 2: Danny is a very good egg and has a lot of empathy for his friend even while recognizing his friend has completely and thoroughly fucked himself over. Like, that pained expression on his face as he answers this question that’s actually more of an accusation from his friend.
He cares about Joe, he wants him to be able to see this and heal from this. And he cares deeply that his friend is in distress and pain even if it is something that is entirely owing to his actions.
But it’s also him setting a boundary. Not running around trying to save Joe’s bacon while Joe mocks him the whole time, but laying down a truth full of empathy and refusing to otherwise support the validity of what he did. And I’m really proud of Danny for doing that.
(Also, holy fuck, middle school. He’s been doing this since literal puberty, which means he fell in with PUAs the second he started scouring the internet for porn or even more sick to imagine, he learned it from his creepy lothario dad. And it also means that he’s had years of Danny telling him “dude, this is a bad idea” that he’s actively ignored and mocked (he’s repeatedly tried to hard press Danny into being just as fucked up and “on the hunt” as he is and mocked his masculinity when he refused)).
(And worse yet, it has his creepy boner updates about women who were underaged at the time he was publicly passing this around to anyone who crossed his path, RSS feed and all. Like, he was just a kid, but holy fuck is that a supremely unsafe thing for him to be throwing on the internet. Even more so because he updates it with sex stuff, so every woman who has overlooked his awfulness and slept with him now gets to see as their sexual exploits are partially categorized as well. Ugh, every layer of this just makes my skin crawl more).
Joe really has shown a shocking lack of redeemable qualities in this storyline and as bad as his dad is, I don’t think he’s keeping a list of women on the internet steadily for at least five years. The devotion to this list is the creepiest part and it’s completely made of creepy.
Joe knew this was bad, he did it anyway, and now he’s complaining people are horrified.
Actually we’ve seen that if you communicate with Joe in a way he understands he can be quite respectful.
Joyce inadvertently stumbled onto it by being direct with her questions and statements (possibly texting also helped)
Danny always beat around the bush and was never clear but almost expected that Joe should be able to “know” what he was talking about which can be really annoying whereas Joyce was straightforward
So what’s Joe’s excuse for ignoring people like Raidah, Rachel, and Sarah saying to fuck off?
There is none, hes got a lot of learning to do but hes not the irredeemable monster hes being made out to be (on the boards) and hes certainly not the worst of the main cast either
A LOT of the people justly criticizing Joe for his behavior have explicitly stated their hope that Joe will learn and grow out of being a trash monster
I think that when you look at what Joe has done and compare it to other characters that have, in my opinion, done worse it seems like the slack given to those characters is more then the slack given to Joe
What Joe has done is not cool, not good, is potentially illegal and should be called out but what he hasn’t done is stalk someone, physically assault someone (in fact he stopped Mike from assaulting Joyce), sexually assault someone, break into someones room etc etc
Just seems like hes getting more vitriol then others although that may be due more to me being able to identify more with Joe then with other characters
I suspect the reason he’s getting more vitriol is easily explained by the fact he’s a side character whose flaw is more pronounced through his appearances (he’s not one-dimensional, but it may seem that way sometimes).
Also, you know, cause he’s a cis-white(or white enough, at least)-male, and who doesn’t love demonizing those. It’s a victimless crime!
Although I’m not sure whether I agree with your assessment that he’s getting more vitriol than others.
I might be wrong, of course, since I don’t read comments every time, and even when I do it’s only a portion of them, but it seems that every time someone does something that could be construed as “wrong”, there’s always a ton of people standing in line to call said character an asshole/monster/douchebag/etc. (although I’m not talking purely about DoA here, it’s a trend I noticed in several webcomic audiences.)
Kinda reminds me of Strong Female Protagonist (interesting comic, can recommend), where after a certain story development people started talking shit about the main character in a, in my opinion, extremely exaggerated fashion.
Some people just get very emotionally invested into expressing their view about the actions of fictional characters. It’s ok, leads to interesting debates, but yeah, people tend to use, lets say, heavy expressions that are, in my opinion, more often then not undeserved.
He has sexually assaulted. Grabbing women from behind in a sexual manner (like he’s done to Joyce and Dorothy and Sierra and I could go on) is sexual assault when they don’t want to be grabbed. It’s the mildest form of sexual assault out there and in all frankness would likely never be provable in a court of law, but it is still sexual assault in the legal sense of the term.
I wouldn’t add Joe into the ranks of Blaine or Ross. But the difference between Joe and Ryan is one of degree, not of kind. Joe hasn’t decided he cares more about his boner than not risking jail time (which was previously literally the only reason he expressed caring about consent – he doesn’t want to rape not because it hurts people, but because getting caught could hurt him).
Aside from that:
*Lack of respect for boundaries… check.
*Willingness to use chemical intoxicants to undermine a target’s faculties to obtain plausible consent… check (Joe has explicitly admitted to using alcohol to this end, and while we do have word of Willis that he hasn’t taken it too far, it must be noted that alcohol is the most commonly used date rape drug, and using it in that manner is walking a v-e-r-y thin line)
*Objectification of women… check
*Refusal to see his targets as people… check
*Refusal to back off when explicitly told to unless threat of force is employed… check
*Persistent gaslighting of chosen targets and insistence that he’s the real victim when he faces backlash for his actions… check
*Persistent deflection of blame for the consequences of his own actions on everyone else except for him… check.
Word of Willis is that Joe is not a date rapist – but lacking that Word of Willis, that would be the read I get off him. And I’m not pulling this from whole cloth – literally every guy I have met who is as invested as Joe is in sexual objectification and PUA asshattery is either an actual rapist or a guy who is too inept at PUA asshatery to manage to date rape but who wants to. Hell, I went to school with a dude who was a paler version of Joe, right down to having a do list he’d harass girls with, who is now doing 12 years in prison for date raping his next-door neighbour, who even he would admit was as close to him as his sister. But she was a tease who liked wearing short shorts so she wanted it, even if he damn near killed her with ketamine to get her agreeable. There are nine other victims the cops know about (including one of my sister’s friends) but that was the only case they could stick, because date rape is damn near impossible to prove in a good region, and that region has the single highest ‘unfounded’ rate in the goddamn country (cops throw out over 2/3 of rape complaints as ‘unfounded’ – basically saying no crime occurred so they refuse to investigate. Think what happened to Rehtaeh Parsons).
Joe is not irredeemable, but he’s walking about as close to the line as he can. The literal only thing that keeps me from writing him off as a character is Willis’ insistence that he’s not a rapist out of comic. In-comic, there’s nothing to indicate that he’s not just paying lip-service to caring about consent. He tings all of my date-rapist warning bells and is creepily similar to a real-world date rapist I had the misfortune of knowing.
Ryan is what a cartoon date-rapist looks and acts like. Joe is what a real-world date rapist looks and acts like. Where Ryan vows violent revenge when met with effective resistance, a real-world date rapist accuses his own victim of being a crazy b-word who has it out for him / a slut who has buyer’s remorse / a tease who wouldn’t give him a solid yes or no so how was he supposed to know / all three of the prior at once and claims that he’s the real victim here. And it works.
@chris73: Some of those other characters have done worse, but have also grown and changed since then: Joyce & Mike punching Joe (Joyce has changed drastically, Mike’s still an ass), Ruth’s certainly faced consequences and is trying to stop the violence, Amber/AG’s stopped her stalking of Sal, though we’re still in the midst of her arc.
The latter two still face a ton of criticism from the commentariat, if possibly from different sections than criticize Joe.
Joe meanwhile continues on his merry way, rating and sexually harassing women, with no change, remorse or consequences. Until now when the consequences start showing up.
@ischemgeek: That’s what bothers me most about Joe. Even with this plot arc, it feels like minimization of the problem to me. He trips every date-rapist red flag, but we’re assured he really isn’t. Contradictory messaging and a signal that people who behave like that aren’t really so bad.
You’re absolutely right, he is not an irredeemable monster.
He’s a redeemable monster, and we’re about to see that redemption. But that doesn’t make him not a fucking awful person right now.
Hes not a monster at all, I mean Mary, Clint, Ryan, Blaine, Ross certainly but to add Joe into that lot seems a bit over the top
And that’s where we disagree. The way Joe treats women makes him monstrous. Not every bad person has to chase someone with a rifle before we decide they’re a bad person.
Do you also think Ruth is monstrous? I think what Ruth did to Billie is worse but I don’t think shes monstrous because of it (shes still got aways to go though for redemption)
No, because Ruth has shown an understanding of the wrongness of her actions and seems to be working to change. Joe thinks he is the maligned party here and has no remorse for treating women the way he does. He thinks just because he’s not a literal violent rapist, he’s fine. That makes him monstrous.
I don’t think most people here think he’s an irredeemable monster – just an asshole who is continuing to be an asshole. He’ll probably change, but for now, he’s still an ass.
The thing that concerns me is that people actually do say he backs off when told, when he very much does not. Not you, but I keep seeing it pop up when people talk about his creepy as fuck list.
He says he backs off when told. He does back off a bit when screamed at or threatened, but he’ll come back with lines next time he sees them, though it doesn’t seem he’s pushing as hard.
I’ve seen folks in the comments who believe he will back off when told, as well, hence my concern.
I don’t think he’s irredeemable and I’m sorry if I gave that permission.
I think he’s a gross asshole. I think he dances way closer to the line of sexual assault than I’ll ever be comfortable with and has done things that are really awful and harmful and tap into a really awful rape culture. And some of the things he does is very evocative of specific individuals who are especially toxic or dangerous to me personally and if I knew this person in real life, I’d stay far far away and probably rant to partners about what fucked up thing “that asshole in my gender studies class did”.
But in the end, his flaws are very much human like many of the antagonists. He’s stuck in a toxic masculinity bubble that it’s really easy for young men to fall down, which young men are encouraged to fall down into.
And now he’s crawling out and I’m cheering for him crawling out, because this is often part of coming of age as a man (rejecting that toxic masculinity and carving out your own healthy masculinity). I want to see him redeemed.
But I’m not going to shy away from what a monumental tool bag he’s being and what specific fuck ups he’s committing are as he’s getting there.
You haven’t given that impression, you’ve been very consistent in your views (which is good) so my comments arn’t directed towards you
I guess my concern is that when you compare Joe to others he doesn’t come off as bad as what the majority of the comments section would suggest
A lot of it is sounding like Joe is representative of the harassment that people on here have had to endure so when they see him, finally, face up to the consequences of his actions its only natural that there’ll be some joy
As a representative of the bullying I faced at high school I have no problems with seeing Ruth get what she deserves (but I also want to see her get redemption as well…eventually)
However as someone that can of recognize some of Joes behaviors from my later years (not to the same degree though) I also know that Joe isn’t a bad guy (well maybe he is at the moment) but has had some awful messages in his youth (probably from his father) and that his major issue is lack of respect for women and immaturity, in certain areasbwhereas in others hes quite mature
We know hes not homophobic, not violent and has a defensive streak in him so I see a lot of potential for positive change
Of course he has to first understand why his behaviors are wrong and that should lead to some more drama
i mean, like. a little bit this is like the argument that “i have a daughter, i can’t be a rapist!!” your relationship with one of the people in your life does not magically wipe out every other relationship you have ever had in your life
i mean maybe it means you can go on to have more relationships like that, but it’s a starting place, not an ending place
This is cutting-edge ukulele tablature humor, and all you guys can think about is plot development???
THANK you! X3
“cutting-edge”?!
WON’T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE ENHARMONIC EQUIVALENTS?!!
Well I DO see a sharp in there.
It cannot be denied. That panel waters the garden of my soul.
I picked up my uke to see if it worked. Cheerful little major chords, but the bottom notes of them make a perfect “Dun Dun DUUUUUNNN.”
(OK, the F# needs a little “3” next to it, but I’ll let that go.)
They do work; so does Ebm Cm F#m which is a little less cheerful. Working is all we need for this story since Danny is of course learning, but I’d be interested to know: is there is actually a standard version of the dun-dun-dunns?
Panel 3: Ugh, again, he’s more upset that it got out and moreso that women have access to it and making judgments about it that aren’t the fantasy ones he had in his head. And he’s still making creepy sex jokes about all of this as if his gross insistence on filtering everything through this form of sexual aggression and harassment wasn’t a major part of the problem.
And I just want to note that as this all falls apart just how much of a sexual harasser Joe has been coming up to this moment.
Like, how many creepy sexual jokes has he made at Joyce long after she’s begged him to stop and had a full PTSD response to them? How many times does he still demean and objectify his teacher and the women in his Gender Studies class even though he’s been told to knock it off? How many times has he bowled over obvious body language that the people he is being gross at have no interest or desire to hear about his fucking boner updates?
And I like that this arc is coming so quickly on the heels of Ryan resurfacing, cause Joe is on the bad road that leads to being Ryan. Like, I trust Willis that he hasn’t gone over that line yet, but he’s danced real close to it and has enjoyed the power of doing something sexual in nature to a woman who actively and emphatically does not enjoy it.
Like, it’s not rape or sexual assault, but it is sexual harassment and it’s based in that same rape culture that births those much worse crimes. That same idea that making a woman uncomfortable is a fun activity, that ignoring all body language or social norms until someone literally yells at you to stop is an okay thing to do and just “flirting”, and that giving women something they don’t want (the RSS feed or knowledge about the list and their rating on it) and actively asked not to have is absolutely okay as long as it doesn’t cross over that thin white line.
And that’s one of the worst aspects of toxic masculinity. The way it makes a game out of fucking with women’s consent with a lot of guys acting like all the creepy invasive stuff that doesn’t cross some line they have in their head that’s “real rape” is somehow okay.
Joe has violated more innocent forms of consent, but forms of consent nonetheless and so many people who aren’t Joe have used this form of sexual harassment as a training ground for the even worse actions.
And that sexual harassment still has a cost. It still scares women out of participating in certain spaces, in letting themselves flirt and sleep with certain people, can cause massive PTSD depending on the level of harassment. It still has a cost.
And Joe like a lot of guys of his type is freaking out because a bare fraction of the consequences from that is falling on him and he truly believed he was immune owing to his gender.
But this is his chance to turn back.
Panels 4-5: Also, Danny is a pure wonderful cinnamon roll here and I’m loving it.
Joe is a pig. A gross one. I’m a very sex-positive person that thinks people should be able to want sex as their major hobby. Everything Joe has done has done it to be something not only for just him enjoying it (which I thought he at least knew wasnt cool) but also invasive as well as ignoring how uncomfortable as well as offended the women involved were. He has, as one partner of mine said, made something beautiful something ugly.
Worse, he’s done it to people who are ostensibly his friends and he KNOWS which makes it doubly ugly. Like, its the fact its everyone around him which makes it extra creepy.
I feel like Joe is a perfect example not of a sex-positive person, but the type of gross toxic asshole who tries to claim “sex-positivity” as an excuse for their harassing behavior and a mask for their bad boundaries.
Like, an actually sex-positive person is super respectful of boundaries and humanity and recognizes everyone’s personhood and that there’s things that don’t need to be shared to all social circles and that some people are going to have different relationships to sex.
It’s crafting a safe space for people to talk openly about sex and consent and what that means. Not to be gross at people in an attempt to intimidate them or make them feel uncomfortable and then blame them for acting accordingly.
And it’s really obvious to see in hindsight. There’s a very large difference in how a sex-positive person makes you feel after an interaction than the predator makes you feel. One makes you feel open to talking about your identity and sexuality, one makes you want to crawl up in a wall and never mention what you are into again.
And the Joe types exploit that to accuse folks who react naturally to the creepiness of being “frigid” or “sex-hating” and demanding that they push past their boundaries in order to “prove them wrong”. It’s a really big problem*.
*And it’s an even bigger problem against asexuals. Because the Joe types target us like the plague because they believe we’re all just repressed and frigid and that pushing us into sex will somehow unlock our secret wild sexual attractions. And that harassment by Joe types is sometimes so bad that there’s a decent amount of sex-positive aces who loathe sex-positivity because they just ran into one too many Joes in those spaces.
I don’t disagree,
In what is a post also directed at Cerberus, I also note this is also a reflection of what a spectucarly shitty friend Joe is. In guys circles, there’s a culture of creating wolfpacks (I hate to use the Hangover but it is reflective) around you of people you essentially make feel like shit so you can feel superior.
It was something I was hoping we’d see a more rounded picture of but, increasingly, its clear Joe just sees Danny as a prop to feel superior to. He treats him like garbage, puts him down emotionally, and generally shares no interests with him. I would ask WHY are they best friends but the answer is because, again, Joe feels better with Danny as the “beta male” (I want to kill whoever came up with that) and him as the Alpha.
Joe is basically an emotional vampire and his anger at Danny is motivated by him developing and growing into someone he can’t feed off of.
Oh my God.
Joe is Biff and Danny is George McFly.
We need Danny and Amber’s son from the future to save him.
Except, even George recognized Biff wasn’t his friend. Real life relationships like theirs are worse and I’ve seen hundreds of them. It’s a very common thing in quote-unquote guy culture.
Yeah, I’m hoping part of this arc is him realizing that he hasn’t done right by Danny in the friendship and deciding either to move on or rebuild something healthier.
One thing Joe’s got going for him is a tiny sliver of awareness that he may have fucked up. Which is a lot more that can be said of a few other males in this comic… *ponders if Blaine’s non-existent neck is out of its brace by now*
*wonder of wonders, I got the two shitty dads’ names mixed up, shoulda just stuck with Toedad*
Spot on. 100%.
Danny is a delight.
That is all.
Okay, yeah, Danny’s ukelele was compeltely worth having around for this moment.
There’s always a chipmunk rotating somewhere. That’s what fuels the rotation of the planet!
Google found the meme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Kyi0WNg40
Hopefully this storyline leads to a redemption of sorts for Joe because hes not a bad guy at all but, like Ruth, Danny, Amber , he’s been influenced by the actions of his father (probably) but if someone like Ruth (whose actions have been much worse) can start to change their actions then Joe can as well
I think it will. I think this is some of the early signs of that and beginning that long walk to recovery. And I’m so rooting for him to get there.
I don’t think “Not beyond hope of redemption-guy” is really the same as “good guy”.
Is there even a good way to be cybered?
… Yes. That particular phrasing is pretty much exclusively used for cybersex.
A-ha. My mind went to his webcam tape with Roz. Not quite cybersex, but it sounds like Joe’s “good cybering”.
You mean that this entire chapter is basically a parable on corporate cyber security and how a system designed and implemented ten years ago probably isn’t safe now (much to the surprise of bosses who insist that cyber-security needs no budget as ‘our system was designed to the highest security standards)?
Though I hope he hasn’t actually been “hacked” in that sense and it’s actually a cyber-security parable on how social engineering is still the most effective hacking.
In Joe’s case of course “social engineering” consists of standing still in his presence long enough for him to tell you about the list and give you the password.
Is he comBROmised now?
…. heh, that was pretty funny.
Good to see that Danny can see the “urgency” of the situation XD
Now the question is… who Cybered Joe… Amber seems to have some know-how but I kinda doubt it was her…
Hopefully this will lead to some positive character development for Joe. I’m not counting on it though.
ahaha you go Danny you drag him
give him his well-deserved ukulele drag
…I can’t believe this is the first I’ve noticed Danny’s scally cap. I guess I’m just that New England.
Parry Gripp makes life better.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwiA9421-MbUAhUr6IMKHS4mC604ChDFrwEIIDAC&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA&sig2=jrtGLYnkvJy9tZZa5897Pg
, I think I pasted the wrong thing, there. This is what I get for posting at 4am. Good night!
…..? I wasn’t aware he had actually written out a list
also.. Wasn’t he often actually telling them their numbers on a semi regular basis in general?
It was established in the 8th strip of the entire comic that he has a ‘Do list’, which is mentioned again in the 27th strip as having an RSS feed and subscribers. It is also mentioned again in the strip labeled ‘Skim’ found on the 7th page of the Joe tag, as well as in ‘Boys Pizza Retreat’ in the second page of the Joe tag. There are likely a few other instances I’m forgetting.
He may tell people he ranks high if they are really high like with Rachel he said she was an 11 out of 10 as a flirting technique, but he doesn’t go around telling everyone their ranking as he didn’t tell Joyce that she was a 4 (though he made ‘remarks’ that she could ‘be made into a 10’).
I heard people saying that Danny was a cringy and bad human being once upon a time. Yet now, it seems so long ago . . . Was it even real?
Cause Danny is great, just great.
imo it wasnt real, just that danny could be oblivious about certain things.
He was a boring dingus early on, though the comments was unfair towards him on a lot of stuff. He’s grown a lot since the beginning of the comic, almost as much as Joyce.
As far as I can tell, Danny’s worst crimes were clinging to a high school relationship (while just barely out of high school) and not figuring out the new girl he’s crushing on is the vigilante he’s also crushing on.
And we might have been too hard on him for that second one. I wouldn’t know, I’ve never had a friend who’s also a masked crusader. To Danny’s credit, the day after he finds out and examines a newspaper photo pf Amazi-Girl, he immediately scolds himself for being a “stupid schmuck”.
His other-world counterpart was pretty awful and super judgmental of others in a shitty “this is why God doesn’t approve of your marginalized identities or extramarital sex” way, which I think where a lot of early “dannying it up” momentum came from to start with.
In this comic, Danny started out with some flaws, most specifically that he was a bit of a Nice Guy TM and acted as surrogate enforcer for shitty culture by glaring at Roz for “getting Joe in trouble” and the like.
But since I’d say Parent’s Night when we saw his abuse at the hands of his parents, he’s been molding himself more and more into a really good and sweet kid who genuinely tries to do the best he can for people and a really good egg.
He used to Dan things up but now he’s a good egg and… wait, the ukulele is working. Maybe not in his world but the comment section actually seems to like him now that he’s begun his plot. Holy crap, Dan is a genius of fourth wall manipulation.
What if the list was the initial reason ‘ryan’ targeted Joyce? I know it’s unlikely since it would have been mentioned… but given the cliffhanger we got and the content of the list…. oof, this is uncomfortable.
Joyce was on her own at the party, with clothes and demeanor that scream “sheltered”. Ryan didn’t need any online list to judge her an easy mark (and he was wrong about that).
More recently, he was tracking down Dorothy because that’s who Amazi-Girl had been texting during the rally.
Thank you, Danny. I love the punchline and the alt text today.
My hate for Danny is now even greater as I witness his lousy work ethics! What kind of administrator doesn’t update security measures and risk private content leaking out? Shame on you Danny, shame on you…
Joe may find Danny’s new look unstylish, but I think he shows a certain élan…
I see what you did there.
*Goes to Google Translate*
…momentum?
Order of the Stick, my invertebrate friend.
You’re the one who referenced OotS earlier. >_>
See, comments like this one are why we need an “upvote” button!
Y’know I sometimes wonder what happened in the last three days that we missed. I’m sure that nothing major went on.
What’s major about Amber being covered in someone’s blood, Dorothy having a thousand yard stare, and the conspicuous absence of that one kid with the scar across the schnoz?
The reference to “junior high” was perfect, as was the musical flourish.
Oh, Danny did something clever. This is an auspicious day.
“Play that ukulele white boy.”
LMAO
Honestly, as someone who has met Joes in every male-heavy group I frequented, I am one hundred percent here to watch him face some ugly consequences. I don’t personally care if he gets redeemed or learns to do better. I won’t be upset or against it if he does, but I’m apathetic.
It’s pure catharsis for me to watch Joe actually get ostracized and told off for being a gross creep as opposed to everyone around him making excuses for him and brushing it off, (which has been the case for those real life Joes.)
Yeah, in reality, you’re the (slur for woman) if you call out their behavior as gross and everyone makes excuses for their constant casual microaggressions.
So yeah, there’s a lot of catharsis to seeing actual social consequences for being a gross sexist jackass.
Well now we got another mystery, but I think I’d prefer to find out what happened to Ryan first.
Probably somethinf remarkably similar to what happened to Blaine.
A beating worthy of a hospital visit followed by Amber’s swift retreat.
Huh. He judges women, but he seems upset when they judge him right back.
Dun, dun, DUN!
All of these handbags are dun-colored! Don’t you have anything in a violet, or a fuchsia?
With that ukelele riff and grin, Danny has just justified his whole existence.
Good gods Joe. I take issue with how you treat and judge the women around you, and your lack of knowledge of password security.
The moment you let someone else besides you know a password it has an effective security of nothing.
Tried to google the song but failed. Anyone knows what it is?
Shock Horror (a), a standard dramatic sting, composed by Dick Walter.
Oh Danny you wonderfully dorky rapscallion.
Unrelated to the comic but I just finished a comic on called My Lesbian Experience with Loneliness, a manga about a young woman dealing with depression, and I think a lot of people here would be really into it.
It’s on comixology for ten dollars if you’re interested (and Trigger Warning for those who are bothered by depictions of depression and self harm).
I also recommend it.
https://www.comixology.com/My-Lesbian-Experience-With-Loneliness/digital-comic/485670
Willis don’t take this the wrong way but your new avatar makes you look like an angry Shaggy. 🙂
I guess the issue is with a storyline like this and the amount of characters to give time to it means that everyone has to wait their turn for a redemption arc
I just hope that Joe can evolve from a one dimensional bro to something more, preferably a better, more respectful person
The smile in the last panel made my day. I like the new Danny.
Yay, Dumbing of Age Bingo! This is a good day!
Oh no Danny has finally sold me on his ukelele phase
MAN, did he learn that thing quickly.
He dunned it up again
Ref last panel. And the ukulele was never seen again.