Ouch! Actually, I’m thinking he probably gave her an 8 or better. It’s hard to resist that triangle grin!
———-//————–
For those not familiar with “Yakey Sax” (where have you BEEN?!) here’s the song, set to the 2015 Llama chase in Sun City, AZ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8mUMSi5M8g
Not quite sure I agree with you on that. He originally rated Joyce a ‘4’ but when he found out just how much of a challenge she would likely be he factored in a 2.5 ‘degree of difficulty’, just like in Olympic springboard or platform diving. Thus, the original 4 x 2.5 = 10.
I felt like that sentence could be interpreted both ways… But on the other hand, either way is pretty fucking super-creepy, so it’s a distinction without a difference.
Yeah. It’s gotten real political. I don’t actually disagree with most of the politics that go on around here, but I do kind of miss the more lighthearted community feeling. Everyone is so serious now, it bums me out when I want to read a funny comic and go laugh about it with others in the comments.
As going back in time would only possibly create another timeline to be changed – we over here are still stuck with what’ve got. But for the better of another alternate universe, I’d hope for being able to send someone back too!
On a side note, I read once in a physicist article or book, that based on calculations, how reality is made up and everything, going back in time would only be possible up until the time until the time machine that is used existed (because otherwise: paradoxes). This does not exclude the Tardis, of course 🙂
(I’m just highly entertained by the idea of Joe doing math equations in a pre-set formula to determine his rankings, I do not in any way condone his actions.)
I getcha. It’s relatable to see Joe apply his affinity for math to his everyday life – a manifestation of his inner nerd – but the moral implications of his particular application are a shame.
This, combined with today’s strip and their date and their secret chat makes me wonder if Joe is developing a crush on Joyce. Sounds weird, but knowing how the concept of feelings is an unexplored territory to Joe, this’d explain all this antagonistic stuff he does to her. She is also probably the first girl to really, honestly open up to him, although I can think of some of them naively opening up AFTER “conquest”, but this is different and new and scary and a 10
To be fair, he did fall for her in the Walkyverse – and also, I feel like romantic (non-sexual) is outside his wheelhouse enough to count for the character development as much as a totally platonic friendship would – possibly more, since he’s friends with Dorothy but a romantic attachment to some significant degree without instant gratification could be something he can’t just laugh off.
Willis has already said that DoA will probably never get past this first semester, so the concept of anybody walking down the aisle with anyone else just ain’t gonna happen.
Panel four..
“Oh yeah… This all really started after that thing with Amber and that guy with the scarred face…
“Oh yeah! I’d forgotten about that…”
“Well… we never really talked about it.”
Born within 1990. What glorious years to grow up in. Kind of helps that I seemed to have been more mature for my age by time I was 6 to appreciate a lot of the culture during that time.
“If I can learn to do-list, you can learn to do-list! Something in you knows it – there’s nothing to it! Follow in my counting, two-by-two! You can learn to do-list too!”
(and the reprise as Joe realizes he’s falling for Joyce in this universe as well: “It’s one-two-three, and suddenly, I see it at a glance – she’s radiant, and confident, and born to take this chance… I planned it all, I just forgot… romance… Joe, how could you do this? How will I get through this? I never should have let her dance!” :P)
Nah. Joe seems the sort that’s give Dorothy an upgrade for having experience.
Remember, his reaction to Roz having filmed them having sex and putting it online with a shrug. Dude’s got a fuckton of faults, but he somehow dodged slut-shaming (…unless I’m missing a crude joke of his at some point crap I probably am).
I can’t remember any instance of Joe slut-shaming either. He’s one of the more sex-positive characters in the comic. Just, y’know, not always for the right reasons.
Sort of like HIV+? I’d avoid using such a serious, sexual judgement charged example, but I can’t think of a similarly well known one. The only other one I can think of is Toxoplasmosa+.
I can see why some asexuals would have bad experiences with the word. But I always saw having the sexual agency to deny sex as part of being sex positive. Then again, the agency to deny sex was part of second wave feminism, but somehow all the people at the time ignored it in favor of the “free love” narrative. So I guess some things never change.
Yup, which is why I identify as sex-positive asexual as I see people being open and building good consent practices about sex also allows real conversation and acceptance of boundaries and their validity (we die in the shadows sort of a thing).
But I fully empathize with aces who are like “fuck sex positivity” because of the “being sex positive means positively being on my dick” douchebags. Like, yeah, that shit can get tiresome as fuck in sex positive spaces*.
*As can, the weird acephobia sex positive places can get where everyone gets wrapped up in performative horny and making universalist statements on “everyone’s” sexualities that ignore the possibility of ace altogether, viewing it as a subset of “repressed”.
Joe is a straight-up dude, within limits. He told Danny(?) straight out, that if a girl was drunk or crying, it would be wrong and she should be left alone.
I mean, the way he’d earlier described Joyce as someone who “needs to be broken in”, and his rather creepy tale of how he would “introduce Joyce to womanhood”, I somehow doubt (as in, I really fucking doubt) that “guide her willingly” really meant just that.
Well, the approach of alcohol is that it can be a social lubricant in a lot of ways, letting people relax a bit and let themselves do things they might be too nervous and self-conscious about doing.
That’s often how it’s presented in popular culture. Not people getting wasted, but having a couple and saying “Ah, what the hell”. There’s a point between “I’ve had so much booze I can’t stand” and “I’ve had a glass of wine, hell, I’m still legal to drive” where ones ability to provide consent disappears, and it’s not a well-marked one :(.
There’s also a distinction between a mutual attraction that neither of you might have acted on without some alcohol and cruising parties looking for girls whose inhibitions have been lowered.
It’s not illegal. It’s not rape or assault. But it’s still skeevy as hell.
Part of the problem, as I’ve said before, is that we don’t know how Joe behaves in those situations. We haven’t actually seen a single successful seduction by Joe. We’ve seen him shot down with great force. We’ve seen the aftermath with Roz & Penny, but not the initial contact.
We also know that, whatever his line on consent, Joe has serious trouble respecting boundaries short of that legal line. That rarely gets better with the addition of alcohol.
He also apparently was partially blacked out since he couldn’t remember what kind of threesome it was he took part in. So maybe he has some weird idea that if he’s sloshed halfway to hell then it’s ok for him to then get involved with some one else who’s drunk? That’s…very dumb. Just so many layers of stupid. It doesn’t matter if you’re more drunk than the person you’re approaching, that’s still crossing a consent barrier.
how does his ranking system work. I mean is it physically based entirely or is there a list of things. (For example say his list comprised of Body, personality, self-respect and hobbies)
Yep. It feels mean to say but being close to people with serious smoking habits can actually be kind of taxing. And if you’re at the point in you’re life when you’re looking for long term relationships/starting a family I can see how smoking would be a deal breaker
She does smoke, she was only saying that she wasn’t smoking it at that exact time. She was indoors and thought Danny was coming to tell her to put it out. She specifically doesn’t smoke pot, but does smoke cigarettes.
Actually, upon looking closer, she has her cigarette lit in the avatars. And the NSFW ad up beneath the comic ALSO has her with a lit cigarette.
I’m not mad, just kinda surprised that people bring up that strip as proof she doesn’t actually smoke when we see her light up plenty. I mean, she’s not a chain smoker or even a particularly heavy smoker, but regularly enough. 33/280 strips where we either see the smoke is lit, see smoke, or can assume from context (being outside, going off wherever) that she’s smoking. That’s 11.7% of her appearances. Again, not a chain smoker at all, but still often enough to know that she does in fact smoke.
Smoking is one of my few instant deal breakers, because it makes their hugs smelly. I’m sure they’re all great in other ways, but smokers should not kid themselves — that smell lingers.
Don’t worry, most of us know. Just like we generally know why it’s a nasty habit health wise and typically wish we had never started.
For myself, I put it, among other pertinent facts that aren’t likely to change and which I know are deal breakers for many, up front on my own dating site profiles for a reason. No reason to waste my own time nor anyone else’s on a date that is going to get off on a bad foot because of something like that.
yeah, tobacco gives me instant coughing fits. not fun. especially when you’re a kid and get in trouble for for being “rude”. grrrrr
otoh, pot smoke is fine so long as I don’t try to smoke it myself 🙂 and most vaporizers don’t even register. I wish they were cheap so everyone would switch to those and let me breathe in peace.
TBH, smoking is a dealbreaker for me in a partner as well. Tobacco smoke will give me a migraine. So, if someone’s going to smoke around me, it’ll cause me to vomit around them. I can’t even stand the smell of it on a person’s clothes.
I’m a strict non-smoker, but I can endure a bit of smoking – though it’ll also give me headache and most often damage my voice in some way – talking gets difficult, and I can’t breath well (though I don’t have asthma) Now to my point: My sister and her husband used to be smokers, but gave it up, for health benefits, thankfully. I used to look after their cats sometimes, staying overnight because they lived far away. Coming home the next evening, and realising that my hair smelled of smoke, as well as my clothing, in contrast to the clean air, was very uncomfortable (especially if it was too late to take a shower). I’ve also attended parties of smokers after which my hair still smelled of smoke AFTER I had already washed it. So: perfectly understandable for it to be a deal breaker to some people
It seems to be a ranking of how desirable that person is for a hookup. Physicality is the biggest part, but I guess you lose points for things that make a hookup less desirable or easy.
I think the shape of the hair gives the panel a feeling of motion that breaks the plane, implying the presence of both a third and fourth dimension. That sort of thing is aesthetically satisfying.
Pablo360 Absolutely, so much. Also, I think combining it with “What *was* I, Joe, before I hurt you?” gives it a very….I don’t know, gentle-but-also-armor-piercing quality that makes it tug at the heart.
It’s a combination of that (especially the wind’s effect, I’m assuming wind is making it shift that way) plus the engorged irises. I would also argue that her acknowledgement of her own negative behavior during that date has something to do with it. It ties up the emotion in the panel.
Have I missed something? I didn’t get the impression that Amber hung up the cape- in fact I think her trauma from the fight will push her further into separating her identities, rather than encourage her to stop being AG. But I could be wrong.
and he ran because he knows four is a bad number and knows it will hurt her and since they got closer like well actual people instead of a bed target he doesnt want to, but maybe he doesnt feel like he can lie to her? idk im tired.
Perhaps that implies that she’s a ten with a major, easily eliminated, defect. I don’t get the impression that Joyce is an “objective” ten (ick, trying to get into Joe’s head on this subject) which would mean she’s a ten in that she pushes all his personal buttons just right. So he runs.
He ran away because Joyce didn’t hit him with the hate and scorn that he was braced for, but rather the empathy for a vulnerability he is incapable of openly acknowledging.
I don’t know whether Joyce did that deliberately for vengeance, or unintentionally while showing grace. Either way, WIN.
I don’t think Joyce is compatible with that kind of vengeance. I can see her going through *fiery* vengeance, as in punishing those who have hurt people close to her, but that’s an immediate thing, not the kind of “screw with your head” version that this would be (and Mike would applaud).
Danny: Joe do you want to talk about your feelings?
Joe: WHAT NO I DON’T WANT TO DO THAT
Danny: but
Joe: NONONONONONO *breaks into beatboxing*
Joe: ah man Danny did you record that
Danny: ummmm no
Joe: WHAT WHAT DID K TELL YOU MAN ABR ALWAYS BE RECORDING!
They were in a texting relationship for a while, at least until they had a semi-public couple fight. Public, in that every one knew that they were fighting over text with one another.
What is Joyce talking about? When did Joyce hurt Joe? Is she talking about having Mike hit Joe during their date? Or is she referring to something else?
Well she did punch him as well but I’m guessing it was probably the whole date itself especially the way she talked about getting his parents back together
Okay, so, what I’m taking away from all this is that Joe genuinely likes Joyce, maybe even cares for her, but he was hurt and angry by her behavior on their date. Not that Joe doesn’t share the blame. Just that hitting other people is not cool unless you’re defending yourself or a UFC fighter.
I really like this idea. I can’t the the one note nature of Joe seriously and he kind of amuses me in the same what an asshole way The Todd used to on Scrubs. But this gives him some emotional depth. He’s so entrenched in his own concepts of masculinity that he can’t talk honestly with a girl he likes, an runs when placed in a situation where his feelings might come out. He’s still a jerk, but this would give him an emotional core that would male me root for him.
I think as for the date he still saw her just like he saw other women, but with the texts and everything, he might’ve come to like her. So maybe he did become hurt in some way, if he remembered.
Or he could’ve just come to like her without much hurt, and is now running away because she’s not angry but seems hurt herself, because of him and the list. Judging women he doesn’t know and getting hit by their anger just confused him, but seeing someone he knows and had deep-ish text conversations with, seriously reading out his list and not flare up on it might’ve really scared him. Maybe he runs away from his own feelings, but I think he runs away because of the questioning hurt I imagine to be in Joyce’s voice. Joe has probably protected himself up till now from the more sad spectrums of emotions in women, I believe.
As am I.
It seems dazzlingly clear to me that Joe actually *likes* Joyce…
*LIKE*, likes, her.
And he doesn’t know how to process that because underneath it all he’s an immature horn-dog… and Joyce does things to him… she touches him in a way no-one has before.
The sort of started dating and genuinely liked each other, and it kind of dissolved because of… exactly this. Joe’s entire life is based around being facetious (the list is clearly not meant as entirely serious, nor is pretty much anything he willingly engages with) and Joyce’s emotional range only goes from “sincere” to “puppy dog eyes, and also sincere”.
The fact that she’s looking over his bullshit list and not responding with half-serious disgust or disingenuous scandalized posturing, but sincerely worried that it meant he took their breakup (and the punching) harder than she’d thought, is sort of the three-panel summary of their entire interaction in the comic so far.
They were not dating. They went out once and it ended badly. There was no breakup because they were never together. And I disagree about the list not being meant as serious considering the amount of time Joe insists on pushing it at people and how much he’s showing about it bein
Also, it didn’t end badly because Joe was trying to score (though he was). It ended badly because Joyce hired Mike as a chaperone, and Mike punched him repeatedly (and Joyce joined in).
To add to the also, they didn’t “genuinely like each other”- they were both pretty much after almost anyone of the opposite sex. For different things, sure, but still.
I think they think a lot of each other, but have a hard time expressing that, because on the surface they’re both the kind of people that the other is “supposed” to hate.
I wonder if Joyce is that one girl for Joe, the one girl you probably won’t ever be with but for whatever reason becomes the one you measure every other girl against
The one you just can’t lie to, you can’t emotionally close up against, the one you remember for the rest of your life and think what if…
idk like it might feel like emotional virginity but that’s only because our society makes it really hard for men to make female friends, or deal with their emotions in a healthy way
i feel like this strip is just as powerful if you view it through a platonic lens as a romantic lens
My read on this is that Joyce is actually genuinely regretful here. She’s come to see him as a better person lately, with the texting, to the point she was disappointed he didn’t want to talk to her in person. And even though her opinion of him has been (quite rightly) damaged by this incident, she’s realizing that as a result of the mindset she entered college with, she cut herself off from a friendship/relationship that could have been really meaningful to her.
Maybe I’m way off base here, but she’s not ANGRY in that second-last panel, she’s emphasizing “was”, and she’s phrasing it in a way that foregrounds her own culpability rather than his action. It’s an interesting situation, either way.
I really really hope that’s not it. Joe was frigging awful to Joyce early on. And yes, she was awful to him once the date started. Joyce shouldn’t regret not speaking to someone who had no interest in accepting a no gracefully. He’d only accept it after copious whining and trying to change her mind.
Of course she is. She’s Joyce. She’s no longer righteously angry at him, so she’s remorseful and blames herself.
Which is bullshit. That friendship wasn’t going anywhere anyway. She wasn’t going to sleep with him and that wouldn’t have led to any real emotional connection anyway (for him, at least). Short of that and without some kind of really extreme response (like the punching), he would either have just kept trying or written her off. Much like he’s acted with Sarah.
Even after their texting connection, he cuts her off in person. That’s on him. He can’t handle the friendship/emotional connection that had started to grow. He still can’t now.
The date was awful. Joyce’s behavior during it was horrible. But that didn’t cut her off from anything because there was never a chance of it being anything. Even if she’d been looking for a more conventional boyfriend, he wasn’t looking for anything beyond a naive virgin to fuck.
All that said, I am kind of afraid they will eventually get together and likely Joe’s growth in that arc isn’t going to work for me.
In fairness, it’s possible that the rating of zero (MINUS!) is a result of Joe respecting her boundaries. She’s not really interested in a sexual relationship and likely won’t be for some time, and since she’s gone through basically an entire Abbot and Costello movie to get that to sink in he’s respecting it and listing her as “not an option” on the list.
It’s… I don’t want to say “sweet” because there’s really no context in which the list isn’t incredibly rude to everyone on it, but if you’re looking for hints as to where Joe’s personal growth arc is going that kind of seems like a good one. He’s essentially discovering that Joyce is a friend, as in a woman that he enjoys interacting without any element of sexual interest, and that’s the chip in the facade that’s probably going to drive him to re-evaluate more than the actual drama-whatever of the list being published.
The difference between Joe and the rest of the cast, though, is that he’s genre savvy for the actual genre of the story he’s in. He actually sees the character development coming and is like “damn it, no! Give me one more arc of fist-bumping and meaningless hookups! I don’t wanna grow up! PADME! NOOOOOOOO!” Then he clenches his fists and all the windows shatter and he punches through the fourth wall and wanders off to the nearest singles bar.
(Honestly, I kind of like Joe, in the same sense as Mike. Lovable Jerk who knows damned well he’s a jerk and that he’ll have to change because he’s in an after-school special type thing, but doesn’t wanna, is kind of… endearing, for some reason.)
I really don’t think that’s it. He changed her rating when she was annoying him by texting on her way back home. I don’t think this is about her boundaries – especially since the blurb about her is still encouraging guys to ‘hit that’.
The only comment I remember is when he told Raidah “She’s practically excised from my “Do” list.” Makes sense it would have been right after the date, when he was justifiably pissed off at her.
I also think the blurb isn’t changed and is intended as a note to himself to “hit that”, rather than encouragement for anyone else.
But his blurbs are NOT just written for himself! He tries to get every person he meets to look at this feed. Joe definitely wrote that “memo to self” with full knowledge that it would encourage readers to hit that.
“In fairness, it’s possible that the rating of zero (MINUS!) is a result of Joe respecting her boundaries.”
Considering how Joe’s “respect of boundaries” has been shown to be close to non-existent in the past, I would absolutely not bet on this.
I mean, the “practically” part basically just means that if by some “miracle” (in Joe’s eyes) Joyce would throw herself at him, he’d still accept that.
And said “miracle”? Well, Joe has already explained what that would be, when he told Joyce: “You? Hell no? A drunker version of you, maybe.”
That’s actually probably precisely why they started texting: They didn’t care at all about each other at first, which means no consequence conversation. Wanna get something off your chest, but don’t want to actually care about their opinion about you or the situation? Just talk to someone you don’t like; maybe someone whose entire personality and worldview you’re pretty sure you figured out in the first 5 seconds of meeting them.
Unfortunately for both of them, when you start talking to people you get to know them, and then you start caring, which screws up the whole “no consequences” thing.
They do, Joe’s just been on the impression that he’s supposed to act as too big to care about her in public because he fears being friends with a woman would be a slam against his masculinity.
I really want to know what his relationship with his mother is/was like. It’s interesting that there was no hint of her being at the family weekend, and it makes me wonder if his dad ended up with custody for whatever reason. The idea that a relationship breaking down ended up with his mother leaving would definitely hit hard and could so easily lead to this sort of behaviour.
He could have been lying to Danny and himself, if liking Joyce wasn’t toxic-manly enough for him.
I always read her as a Girl Next Door, albeit a pretty one. Maybe he stupidly requires himself to prefer actively sexual model-types, or not to value whatever sensitive kind women, or whatever else makes her special to him.
I think she was only a 4 for her naive preachiness and the fact that she totally doesn’t want to bang him. To Joe, on looks alone, she would’ve been a 10.
Joe, on looks alone, would be very attractive to Joyce, too, but then his whole persona and everything he does get in he way, and also Joyce doesn’t rate people.
Also wonder if this is a situation like Rocket from Guardians 2 in which Joe is an asshole all the time because he can’t even Fanthom the thought of someone even caring about a guy like him
Hmm, in a romantic sense maybe, in a way it’s a defense mechanism where he’s not try to push possible love interest away but instead is giving people and excuse to intimately involved with him unless it’s for sex and sex only. Then there’s question of why and there are a lot of awnsers there, maybe he’s afraid of commitment or maybe he’s afraid of getting involved in a relationship where he opens himself completely only to get hurt or he’s afraid of ending up in the same type of loveless marriage his parents did.
His parents are divorced and his father is presumably a womanizer (interaction with Amber’s mother), this is probably a combination of learned behavior and a defense mechanism. There’s not really any information regarding the divorce beyond ‘they fought a lot.’ Father’s womanizing behavior might’ve predated the divorce and been a contributing factor. Alternatively, he might’ve dove back into the dating pool fairly quickly post-divorce, and seemed to handle it better than Joe’s mom from an immature outside perspective. No kid wants to end up miserable. If his mother wasn’t handling the divorce particularly well, it might’ve given Joe the lesson that love only ends in heartbreak and that he’s better off playing the field.
Nah, she’s viewing it from a utilitarian angle. When Danny quietly comes out to her she considers herself a zero, and okay fine I’ll stop being a killjoy.
When he was first trying to figure this out, he came to her for advice. She was surprised, but he said ‘for some things it’s still gotta be you’. She didn’t understand his freakout about being bisexual, then had some difficulty convincing him it’s a real thing.
Dorothy and Joyce would make a good couple. Even just from a queer-platonic standpoint. Hell, they kind already are dipping some major toes into having a queer-platonic relationship.
If Walky was there,
Walky: Really straight there Joyce. Just the absolute straightest. Also 100% correct Dorothy is way better than a seven!! She’s like a, a …a twenty to the…the power of a thousand…or something like that.
I ship it pretty hard. There’s a ton of potential for growth on both their ends. Dysfunction that learns to function is the best. But, if they just stayed friends and learned from one another totally platonically, that’d be cool too. Either way, I think they’re super important to each other’s growth.
honestly Joyce’s being upset at Dorothy’s only being a seven is totally legitimate, because Dorothy’s nice and smart and awesome and a seven is waaaaay too low for her, but I can’t help but read that as a shiptease with Joyce angry that somebody doesn’t acknowledge Dorothy’s objective coolness. I approve of this reaction. 😛
I’m imagining she got points off for being really wound up in career goals and politics. Admirable traits in a person, but not in a casual date, which seems to be the metric for Joe’s list.
I was more thinking that those traits make it harder to casually hookup with her so she lost points. I mean, Joe was really into Roz and Sal and they’re definitely all of those things you mention.
This ^ Either consciously or not, there’s probably a little bit of squick where Dorothy’s concerned for Joe. That’s his best friend’s girl (even though she’s not anymore) and it would probably feel super friendcestuous to him.
Except one of his earliest strips in comic is him actively putting Dorothy back on the list and rating her and implying he’s about to fuck her literally minutes after she broke up with Danny. And doing that to Danny’s face.
Intelligence is probably not very high on the list of desirable qualities for someone that would put a list like this to paper and actually create a subscribable RSS feed for it.
Okay, let me elaborate then: in the vast majority of situations assault is wrong; however, when it’s used as a deterrant for attempting to coerce women into sex, I’m not that mad.
At this point, I’ve accepted that we don’t agree on lots of things and try to avoid you, but I can’t imagine you would be on the side of “Joe deserved to be physically assaulted” outside of a slapstick format.
I’m not, I’ve condemned that action thoroughly and repeatedly.
I’m asking you to stop intentionally trying to pick fights based on uncharitable reads of clear hyperbole that is not likely reflected in real-life attitudes to violence.
I’ll admit, I can be confrontational. Violence is a big no-no for me, and that is how I really feel I relate to Joe. I was after people saying Joe should be kicking Ryan’s butt too, because that’s not my view of Joe as a character.
I’ll TRY to not pick “fights”. I get it. It does not push discussion back towards the fun it once was, nor does it improve what is in it now, and it’s something I have power to stop.
But don’t think I don’t have a heavy dislike of your interpretation of Joe. I disagree vehemently.
I like what you said about charity. People should be more charitable when reading stuff. Often people write and say stuff they don’t really mean, and would realize is actually pretty dumb if they had taken a second more to think about it. People should be more generous and charitable in general.
You were a four, Joyce, due to your virginity and lack of know-how re: sex. Joe wanted to ‘upgrade’ you with his dick because Joe is fucking disgusting, so why not echo corrective rape logic?
Yup, all of this. And that corrective rape logic in that comic is one of my biggest problems with him because it reveals how basically the only reason he hasn’t raped anyone yet is luck.
He said that rape is not “how he gets his jollies”, with a very disgusted face, to Sarah. On the same comic page, where he says “I’m not going to break her” (Sarah’s wording) “I’m going to FIX her.” Sarah: “With your penis.” Joe: “With my penis.” fyi
Exactly. I’m sure Joe wouldn’t actually fuck without consent, but he views lack of consent as a challenge. As a thing to overcome. And he may not be very picky about how he gets that consent.
He doesn’t consider himself to be That Kind Of Person, but neither do a lot of people who have done even worse things. Knowing rape is wrong doesn’t necessarily mean you have a great grasp on what rape IS, which is part of why advocation for consent education is so important (and is not limited even slightly to “telling people rape is bad”, like the knee-jerk detractors think it is).
Mm hmm, he knows that capital R “Rape” is wrong, but views that as stranger in the bushes jumping out or skeezy guy at the party slipping women roofies or someone going when the person is fighting back.
But he completely excises manipulation and coercion and views those as dandy tactics to get a “yes” the person wouldn’t otherwise agree to. It’s essentially a no means no understanding of consent and rape rather than a yes means yes understanding.
Yeah he says he’s not gonna rape her, but in the same strip he’s using corrective rape logic. He’s incredibly rape-y, even if he’s not crossed that line (which I don’t believe he has, but he’s dancing with the line and reaaaaalllly needs to stop before he crosses it – see, him using alcohol to get sex, talking about ‘upgrading’ and ‘fixing’ women with his dick, not backing off until he’s assaulted or screamed at, etc.)
The whole repeat punching to the face might have more farcical than typical for Dumbing of Age. But it was somewhat deserved considering his intentions
The way I read it, he was hoping for a hookup, thought that once she lost her virginity she might loosen up and relax, and lose those churchy traits that (Joe thought) were keeping her from being a 10.
He phrased it in probably the douchiest way possible, but I don’t see anything inherently scummy about hoping for a hookup after a date. He obviously wasn’t about to force her to do anything, Joe doesn’t roll like that.
Joyce makes it clear early on she is not okay with premarital sex. Joe intends to do whatever he can to turn that no into a yes. That is incredibly skeevy and not okay.
It’s incredibly scummy to hope for a hookup when your date has made it super clear they’re not into casual sex. You don’t have to be a literal rapist to be a bad person.
Yeah, but the thing is, one is realistically awful while the other is cartoon-shenanigans awful. One happens every day while the other, though I doubt it’s never happened, at least happens very very very rarely.
I’m not defending Mike’s beating Joe up or Joyce joining in, but I do wanna point out that she was honestly horrified the first several times Mike punched Joe. She wanted a chaperone, and in her mind Mike was there to protect them BOTH from Bad Thoughts.
It evolved into “Mike punches Joe for looking at a waitress’s breasts and Joyce gloweringly approves”, but that wasn’t the intent. She didn’t hire Mike to assault Joe. She hired him to keep her from going too far.
He was rather explicit about his intentions. He wanted to “fix her with his penis”. And he was willing to do everything in his power to end run around her stated boundaries and limits that he could to get there, trying to get rid of the chaperone before he even started punching him and trying to circle every conversation back to sex.
Like, I’m not minimizing how badly Joyce behaved in that date, because holy crap was she absolutely horrible, but what he should have done is bailed immediately rather than continuously seeing if he could sabotage her enough to isolate and “seduce” her.
It’s also interesting that we see a hint of his attitude about the list even in that conversation. He’s relying on conventional norms to keep Sarah from telling Joyce about his intentions, in much the same way he expects no one he gives access to his list to pass it on.
it’s half possible she’s 0- actually because he kinda opened up to her (the SMS an’ all) and can’t imagine doing that to someone he “humanized” anymore.
And Joyce scores a direct hit, and with the most devastating weapon: compassion. Before *she* hurt *him.*
Anger he understands, but this, he’s defenseless.
Joe does best (or worst) with direct questions, Danny beats around the bush but Joyce here, or via text, comes straight out with the questions she wants answered
I’m still puzzled as to how the do list is accessible. Like how and or why is it on the internet at all? Shouldn’t it just be a Word file on his computer? I DON’T UNDERSTAND THIS STORY.
Joe posted it online with a password to protect it and then gave out the password as a guide for guys who couldn’t get laid, including an RSS feed and subscribers. This was established by Joe in the first storyline.
He actually seems to give it out to anyone he meets except the low-scoring girls, and guys he doesn’t like…he doesn’t seem to have given it to Walky, but he did offer it to Raidah, frex.
Well, then he wouldn’t be able to show it off to others (who may or may not want to see it… probably more the “not” side), view it on his phone, etc. And there’s an RSS feed, so anyone subscribed to said feed (which presumably required a password to access) would instantly see whenever he updated it. Despite Joe’s desire for security of “the list”, he also clearly feeds his own ego by sharing it with those he deems “worthy” and has offered the password to others (both male and female) on multiple occasions, without thinking that oh hey, they might share the password with someone else. Probably was thinking more with the “lower horn” and not very logically then.
That covers the why… as to the how, well Danny helped him create it back in junior high. Danny was probably a novice programmer back then and created a simple webapp with basic features like viewing the list and adding/editing/deleting entries. There’s probably just one viewing password he gave to everyone, so he can’t ban accounts if one person gets their revenge by sharing the password. Heck, the “admin” password may even be the same one! Even if that were not the case, it’s probably pretty easy to break in — as Danny himself said a couple strips ago, it’s definitely not up to modern security standards (I think the term “paper bag” was used?)
Sigh, I put way too much thought into the implementation of this horrible list…
Something that tends to bug me is when I read how Danny created a website for him back in highschool, I’m picturing him doing it back in the late 90’s. I’m not even sure if RSS existed back then. Granted, a simple web search could tell me, but eh.
If DoA is set “now”, most of the main characters wouldn’t have been born until 1998. (‘Adults’ like Leslie and John Brown would be late 80s or very early 90s, the main cast’s parents would probably be early to mid 70s.)
My point is middle school for the DoA freshman class will always be “5 to 7 years ago”. 2010 to 2012 as of today. RSS was a thing for years before that; I remember hearing about it when Digg and Del.icio.us were popular.
Yup, and that’s the big thing with PUA culture. It’s not about actually getting laid. As a means of getting laid, it’s actually one of the worst methods possible (like just going on dates and not being an asshole has way more “success”).
What it’s about is homosocial performance. It’s about performing “I’m such a big alpha dog that I can shit-talk a woman to her face and still brag about getting laid and thus fulfilling the requirements to be seen as a “man” and getting the approval for that from other men.
Joe just getting laid isn’t the point. Having an imaginary audience of his male peers on his RSS feed “cheer” his actions, is. And we see that with a lot of his interactions with Danny. He’s constantly trying to push Danny into fulfilling the role of man who congratulates him for getting laid after he does so or says he’s done so and gets angry at him for not.
Because in his head, none of the shitty sex he’s getting (shitty because he doesn’t seem to give all that much care to the pleasure of his partners or in listening to their needs and wants) matters unless there’s a man to tell him he’s a better more manly man for getting it.
The ironic thing about this that I only just remembered now is that, when you look at Joe when he’s not single-mindedly focusing on sex, he’s not quite so devoted to the concept of masculinity. As an example, during that whole ‘Walky needs to get a pair of shoes’ debacle, when Walky was making a big deal out of how ‘only girls own multiple pairs of shoes’, Joe took him to task for falling prey to shitty cartoonish stereotypes.
I think there’s more to Joe than to your standard PUA. His insecurities seem to be rooted deeper than simple misogyny and fragile ego—it almost seems more like a technique for masking his emotions. Joe is, ironically, both free of toxic masculinity (as seen when talking to Walky) and the poster child (totally incapable of really opening up to anyone about his feelings).
He had it on an RSS feed. Basically, it was a way to have the document online for people to subscribe to and see the changes immediately as he updated it. He was always insufferably open about the fact he had it and would offer access to it to people or invite them to subscribe. Because he probably assumed so many guys on campus were like him and wanted to see who they should go for. Someone who had access could easily post what he had written all over the internet or send it to people throughout the dorm.
Also, really Joe? Billie’s a six because she has a bit more weight and curves? You’d better pray Ruth doesn’t see that list, because she has a lot of pent up anger and frustration and you are, as of about fifteen minutes ago, the single most acceptable target on campus. Though only because insert first name Ryan insert last name is currently either dead, missing, or in the hospital. Ruth could strangle you with your own spine and Clark Wing would cheer her like a hero. You’d best watch your step.
Well, OF COURSE Joe is fatshaming. The entire principe of the list is not only misogynistic and instrumentalizing, it’s also following the lookist principle of hierarchizing people’s appearance.
And since our idea of “beauty”, in the dominant culture, is tied to sexism, cissexism, transphobia, enbyphobia, racism, fatshaming, ableism, etc, the ranking is bound to reflect all of those and more. Even if there wasn’t any comment about “chubby” girls, even if Joe was somehow a feminist and body positive person (both being in complete contradiction with the very principle of the list, once again), even if all of the women fully consented to be ranked, etc, this list would be inherently oppressive.
You’re right it’s just…ah but fat shaming just really pisses me off, especially when it’s directed at someone who really isn’t that fat. *sigh* I swear it would only have been worse if it said “exotic mixed Asian” or some bullshit like that. Fucking lists.
(And I know you weren’t actually saying fat people deserve it, but you were saying thin people deserve it “even less”, so the implication is still there, probably unconsciously.)
Shit. Yeah it was unconscious. I in no way meant that.
…
Also I would like to state for the record that the BMI is bullshit and would like to add that there are huge environmental factors that go into increased weight and that some people just are larger or smaller while still being perfectly healthy.
It’s not the word, and also “but Joe could be ruder while calling Billie fat, because we’ve got lots of nasty words” isn’t a great defense of his behavior. Just says our society is kinda fucked up.
What’s fat shaming is marking her down for it, I think, and also just calling her fat on a list he shared publicly.
Calling someone chubby or fat isn’t inherently fatshaming, calling them chubby or fat as a negative descriptor is fatshaming. So if the word ‘chubby’ is used neutrally or positively, it’s not, if you’re using it as an insult or detractor, it definitely is! And Joe seems to be doing the latter.
Yup, it’s enshrining normalized beauty standards as some “objective” measure, discounting the wide tapestry that people actually have in developing sexual attraction and creating a resource to shame people who dare have non-mainstream “tastes”.
Hell, it’s something I see a lot in PUA culture and that toxic masculinity. Guys pressuring each other to go after those who fulfill a normalized beauty standard intentionally sold to them and hide any attraction for anyone outside it lest you get mocked by your peers for going after a “4” or the like.
And it’s downright dangerous, because guys get angry and violent about having feelings for someone they know their friends will mock them for having feelings for.
Like, a lot of fat women get intense sexual harassment because some guy got a boner at their appearance and decided the only way to cope with it was to rip her apart for daring to “do that to him”.
And lots of trans women are straight up murdered because of this shit, because we “tricked” them into being sexually attracted to a “man” who all of their toxic masculinity friends will rip them apart for being interested in, because gayness is synonymous with being a woman in their universe.
And because if we’re straight, our long-term partners can turn on us at any time if he feels like his peers will mock him for “dating a man”.
It probably says: deceptively strong, red hair, a bit on the tall side, freckles, glasses, slightly thinner than expected, expressive sad eyes behind said glasses. Eight. Would be nine but she’s a Leafs fan. Leave alone. Both scary and probably hurt. Don’t want to get involved in that mess.
…
If you excuse me, I need to vomit and take a shower, a feel ill having tried putting myself into Joe’s headspace.
Yeah, I don’t get that either. I’m leaving out my personal taste in wife (who is exactly my type, built like an Amber, and way fewer issues) but:
Does Joe know Billie was head cheerleader in HS?
In DofA, everyone is still pretty young, and doesn’t have issues with aging a bit*. Even in that context, Billie was a head cheerleader a short time ago. She has a good amount of that strength and flexibility remaining. (We readers have seen it.)
On its own merits**, give what the list purports to rate, wouldn’t these qualities up her rating?
(*I’m older than Willis.)
(**Don’t rate women, Joe.)
Joe has been shown to be pretty cool with homosexuality, and he knows Leslie is a lesbian. I figure he’d respect that and never try (and pull back quickly in an AU where he didn’t know.)
(then immediately ruin it by saying girl-on-girl is hot and asking for video to watch since he can’t play)
Yeah, it’s turning our intimacy with other women into something that’s all about the man and his orgasm. Same problem I had with the framing of Inara’s date with the Councilor in Firefly, where it was all about how much the men wanted to masturbate to it.
Remember how the camera lingers really hard on everyone else’s’ REACTIONS to it? How they watch Inara all goggle-eyed? Even Kaylee is getting off on it, which I will snatch up as proof that she’s not straight and run away with to a better universe, but the framing of that whole scene was definitely focused on the other characters being leeeing voyeurs.
I did read that scene as the men being gross and invasive and disrupting what should have been a private affair (no pun intended), but I read the FRAMING as being more sympathetic to Inara and less flattering to the men. Is there something I was missing there?
Yes, they’re meant to be gross, but it’s in a ha-ha, “identify with these gross men” way. We’re still expected to share Mal’s and Jayne’s reaction to Inara and the counselor. Whedon will happily parody objectification of women, but, uh, he still does it. That’s his problem. Well, one of his problems. He’s kind of garbage.
No, he would have done it before he came to find and assault Joyce.
I think it might be interesting if that source of the leak came out and we saw Joe’s reaction to it. I suspect that he would be horrified to know the manner of people with whom he’d been associating. All objective realities aside, Joe was always very firm on his self-deceit that he respects women on a certain level; Ryan and his behaviour would repel him and it might be another slap in the face that forces him to examine just how he’s been treating people and what it says about him.
mostly this headcanon is based in the idea that Ryan heard Joe talk about his buffness as a reason Walky couldn’t attack him, and would therefore want to isolate him from his friendgroup both as a threat and as what he might consider a kindred spirit
but mostly, yeah, make joe come to his senses and figure out who he wants to be
Also what about Billie makes her “desperate” in Joe’s opinion? Is it just her being “chubby”? Being not a size zero must automatically make her desperate?
Either that, or the fact he first saw her after she was willing to bang Danny back like…years ago at this point. When she was initially trying to interview Danny about Amazigirl before she and Ruth got together. That was a long time ago. But I think it was the fact that she nearly had sex with Danny because Joe didn’t have a very high opinion of Danny’s ability to attract girls.
It wasn’t years ago. More like a few months, if even that. Remember, time in the comic progresses at a significantly slower pace than it does for the readers.
That aside, I think you’re right that he considers her desperate for turning to Danny for sex when she could’ve gone to him.
She kinda was a bit desperate at the time, but that kinda makes it worse to put in the description he’s sharing with other people. Just fucking telling anyone willing to listen that she’s emotionally vulnerable. WTF Joe
that’s PUA culture for you! emotional vulnerability exists to be exploited, and if it isn’t there, you damn well CREATE it by making the girl insecure and confused. It’s an actual textbook for how to create yourself an abusive relatinoship. It’s… look, I often find this word silly, but it’s actually evil.
This, all of this. And yeah, it’s what’s so fucked about PUA culture is that exploitation of every social nicety, custom, and act of good faith on the part of your “target”.
And those who survive that shit frequently end up learning to be less trusting, be more prickly, be willing to jump on the first red flag just to try and prevent it happening again.
It’s a parasitical worldview that makes everything a bit worse for it existing, which is why popular “hunting grounds” for douchebags tend to get largely abandoned by women, which is the real purpose. PUA is usually just a sexualized version of “these women do not belong in ‘our’ space”.
Let’s first consider this as his base unupdated rating of Billie, specifically “…she’s really a six, but her boobs are like a ten.” To this we can add what he knows about her from Danny describing the events of that day and what he’d have learned from listening to hall gossip and further interacting with her (cf Fart Captor’s post above). For a good example he’d likely have heard about consider her first day interaction with Tony. Outside Joyce, who for reasons hasn’t been updated, I feel we can expect he updates every aspect of these with new info as he has it… well, except for names, which he doesn’t include at all.
He could have just decided to stick her wear she ‘really’ belongs, especially if the takeaway from Amber’s look was ‘I shouldn’t artificially inflate my numbers’. He was worried about that with Roz.
That she basically approached him and flirted with him. That’s what makes her “desperate”. That she approached him for casual sex instead of letting him “hunt her”.
And the sick part is that’s not uncommon among these types of guys. A lot of them have a lot of baggage about “proper roles” for genders and so a woman who actually seeks out casual sex is treated awfully and as a desperate (slur for a sexual woman), even though they expect all of their targets to be down for casual sex once they “seduce”.
Except that the two examples of women we know he actually had sex with very likely sought out such sex with him. Or at least responded to his initial flirtation.
Am I right in reading Joyce here as much more sad than anything else?
Also, it’s still heartwarming to see Joyce’s sort-of hero worship for Dorothy still, it’s sweet to see how much she thinks of her friend, even when it’s in this sort of context.
Plus, it’s telling that it’s the person who has an actual emotional connection with him that terrifies Joe. Joyce, for all her differences, has similarities to him, enough that they can actually talk and for her to admit where she was wrong in the past.
I’d say so. Joyce is seeing right through him and probably thinking less about the numbers and more about why Joe would feel the need to assign them, and to put so much emphasis on them.
And maybe that’s Joe’s biggest thing with it. He’s so shitty at communication that he feels like this is his best way of doing it. We’ve already seen he’s a lot better communicating via text (at least with Joyce) so maybe his thought process was that doing so online via a list would be better?
I mean, he still did in a shitty way, but there’s some deep rooted shit there that will probably be addressed and mostly remedied via this arc.
Nah, the I’d say the list is his way of avoiding all that.
It’s an explicit, public rejection of feelings, romance, and emotional entanglement, by enshrining how much time and effort he puts into thinking about sex, and women as sexual partners and nothing else.
consider: we could have had Ruth chaperoning this date instead of Mike. frick. i kind of almost wish that had happened, because that would have been hilarious
Especially as Ruth would likely have given him less of an excuse to feel aggrieved and would have absolutely ripped him apart for all of his attempted end-runs around consent and boundaries.
and Joyce and Ruth could actually, like, have developed a relationship earlier that didn’t revolve so much about Ruth being astonished at Joyce’s naivete. but i don’t know if that would be a good thing or not, because a lot of Ruth’s narrative has revolved around her isolating herself from people.
…she and Sarah probably would have a lot in common
Yeah I’d just keep on running about as far as you can lest hell hath no become a forever curse that will follow you in form of the one seemingly closest to our lord and savior.
So my take on the last panel is that Joyce is the first girl that Joe sees as more then just a receptacle for little Joe, he sees her (or is starting to see her) as a person
Joe isn’t a bad guy but he knows (he may not want to admit it yet) his list isn’t good so he knows hes hurt someone he actually cares (or is beginning to care) about
He doesn’t want to hurt any of the girls much less rape them so the idea of hurting Joyce is against what he actually wants so when faced with the question from Joyce he does the only thing he can think of at the moment which is to run away
While Joe’s kind of a massive creep having a more omnipotent perspective on him makes me genuinely want to see him mature as a person, and I feel part of that growth comes from finding a genuine platonic friendship with Joyce.
Plus while Willis isn’t my favorite writer I at least trust his savviness in avoiding such nonsense tropes, like a version of events where Joyce becomes a tool for Joe’s growth, which I feel would be an easy enough trap to fall into. As it is I’m reserved but optimistic about this little arc here.
I think she might become the tool for growth for Joe, but not in a cliched way, which is something I’d also quite like to see but between her Jacob and Danny I think he has a real shot of becoming a decent man and not staying an over grown boy
I suspect that Joe’s laptop has a three- or four-page draft ‘in-depth review’ of Joyce that he wrote but never posted on the feed because it horrified him. It began to lapse into sappy poetry about her beauty (inner and outer) and rated her as “10+ – Snap this up and keep it before someone else does!”
When he realised what he’d done, he had a panic attack and responded by publishing a flame about her instead. He’s still got the review, though. He’s been elaborating on it by adding photos of her in candid moments and even a sound-track of some sort. It’s become his guilty addiction to just sit there at night and once again read through the review.
Yes, I’m saying that the ‘Zero-minus’ thing represents a fear reaction and a wall of denial.
Like just to elaborate: you’ve theorized that Joe has a shrine to Joyce. With “candid” (aka, taken without her knowledge or consent) photos and songs that make him think of her. That he keeps adding to, which he reads over late at night.
None of that is romantic. It is obsessive and stalker-like.
Maybe, but it seems much more straightforward that this blurb is just what he wrote after their first contact, before the date and that he changed the rating, but not the note when he was, justly, mad at her for the punching afterwards.
There’s probably some emotional connection there he is in deep denial about, but I doubt he’s gone nearly that far with it.
So, looking at how this plays into Joyce (…because the shit going on with Joe is a fucking minefield…):
I find her attitude here interesting. She’s looking at the info and, well, duh, she’s disgusted, kinda horrified and definitely feels objectified. But instead of recoiling in horror or going after Joe with a metaphorical (or literal) 2×4, she’s exploring it more.
It’s like… finding yourself in a hole, and deciding that the best way forward is to keep digging. Maybe she’ll end up more disgusted, maybe something else, but its the sort of attitude one gets when data doesn’t mix. The person that called her a Zero-Minus is the same person that she’s been having good conversations with in situations.
She wants to find out who the real Joe is, even if it hurts a bit. And that’s why Joyce is an awesome person: Willing to look for something better, even when all signs point to misogynistic douchebag.
To be fair, Joyce is starting to realise her world view is kinda messed up. She’s probably also realised that hiring Mike to punch someone on their first date (and then punching him herself because he stared at the waitress’s breasts) were way over top.
Not that Joe’s actions were OK, but Joyce by now probably is a little confused on what is normal acceptable behaviour for people outside the culture she grew up in, and has probably started to (at lest try to ) hold back on the instant condemnation.
Also, rereading the date between them, am I the only one to notice how Joe consistently protected Joyce from getting punched by Mike? I get it’d probably ruin his date, but it seemed more like something he did by default because “hitting girl’s are wrong” or “a proper man protects his date”. Still sexist, but at the least he will accept some of the sexist traits that are inconvenient for him on top of the ones that works to his advantage.
I identify a lot with Joyce’s approach here cause it’s one I’ve adopted a lot. Being horrified and hurt at a piece of bigotry, but desiring to break it down and understand it at the root level.
And I can definitely see her reasons for doing so. She’s had some big bad encounters involving intense bigotries with people she’s cared deeply about, so learning how it all works is a crucial part of figuring out her way of coping with it as well as learning how much baggage she was saddled with from her raising environment.
…one can also compare it to the shit with Scarface, come to think of it.
Fucktard McRapey is, outwardly, everything Joyce was looking for in a potential husband: A Pastor’s son, religious, conventionally attractive apparently kind… and he turned out to be an outright awful person.
Joe is, outwardly, everything Joyce is either against or uncomfortable with: Openly sexual, objectifies women (and her), crude… but she’s gotten to know him as a better person than that.
I’m not banging on a Joyce/Joe ship here, not at all. But it might be giving Joyce reasons to look deeper into people…
Wait a sec…if Joe shows the list to other guys as a guild to help them find the most attractive girls on campus, perhaps his labelling Joyce a 0- was to make other men stay away from her. He actually still holds a candle for her.
Well there’s a theory. He’s become friends with her, at least in a non-public way, and doesn’t want her to get hurt, by any of the dudebros(?) that see the list, so he put her so far down it that they’d just ignore her.
But like I’ve said before, 15+ years reading about him, so my view on DoA-verse Joe is tainted by Walkyverse Joe, and as such I’m able to cut him some slack cause I want him to get better again.
Gods, I hate how easy it is to excuse bad behavior. Glad it didn’t extend to Middle-Name-Ryan, Becky’s Dad and Amber’s Dad. Probably have to excuse myself out life if I did.
True. Guys can be jerks. Also, your statement reminds me of some song I hear on Pop Radio right now, with a line like how he picks up girls with few ‘likes’, and it just feels so creepy.
Zero minus never made sense to me. A zero can’t be a negative…and when numerals are negative, aren’t they before the number, not after? Then I realized what 0- means. Its not a number. Its a pictograph.
I have to say, I don’t see Joe on the same shitlord level as many others do.Yes, his do-list ist dumb and infantile, but I guess that will be resolved in this storyline.
excuse my sarcasm but like i dont think you understand the oppressiveness of having your entire value demeaned to your appearance, not just by One Dude but by literally. everyone. to one degree or another. like. joe is just explicit about it, but this is the background radiation of women’s lives
not only is his do list dumb and infantile, but it is offensive and horrifying on so many levels. because it makes it very clear how little respect Joe has for the women in his life if he can publicly air his opinions on their relative attractiveness. he thinks women will go “oh that dumb attractive horndog”, and to a degree they do, but they do so knowing that he secretly despises them, and will rate them on a website he’s had up since junior high.
like of the women we’ve seen Joe “score” with: it’s basically just been Roz and Penny. Roz, who wants meaningless sex with someone she doesn’t have to form a connection with; and Penny, who is literally his teacher and doesn’t give a shit about anybody’s rules. neither of these are really…affirming relationships.
like idk dude, i don’t know how you can read multiple women talking about how creepy this is and walk away not being like “wow maybe i should think about this in the context of my own life, considering that i am only one person and cannot experience everything that everyone else experiences and cannot even fully understand what someone else has experienced because i am not that person and will never be”. but maybe that’s just me!
Every man is evaluated just as women are. Maybe you never did, just as I never rated anyone. But perhaps being physically stronger than my critics gives me confidence you never had access to.
Gojira, you’re missing the point. There’s nothing wrong with preferring one person over another, or particular attributes, or considering those to determine who’d you prefer to sleep with.
But what Joe does goes far, far beyond that. He’s doing it ALL the time. To the point where he refuses to talk about women except with regards to their rating and how much he wants to bang them. Which is also practically the only thing he’ll talk TO them about.
There’s also his lack of respect for boundaries, personal space, and consent beyond the bare minimum to not be a rapist. People have explained this all over the comments, day after day. It’s not hard to understand.
But perhaps being less inclined to smugly dismiss women when they told me of their experiences gives me insight you never had access to.
I think you may want to ask yourself why you’ve Ren multiple women in the strip react to the list either with disgust or pain, not to mention all of the many people in the comics who are also reacting to it with pain and anger, and your response is to say, “Idk, i don’t see Joe as being as bad as everyone else.”
Why isn’t the pain he’s inflicting in the comic registering as a knock against Joe?
Are you feeling the impulse to tell what you see as a bunch of women that we are all overreacting and it can’t be that bad?
(This is a genuine question because they’ve done studies and found that the average guy literally does assume that any upset woman he encounters is overreacting. “She’s at 8, I assume the situation is 5 at most.”)
There is a thing where this sort of thing in real life typically gets folded under “boys will be boys” and deliberately socially diminished.
So yeah, I think if you haven’t been targeted by this sort of culture it can be easy to just view it as “ok, that’s dumb, but whatever, boys will be boys”, because that’s what’s socially encouraged.
So I can definitely see what you’re saying on it not quite hitting.
I’d be okay with just strips of Joe running through various scenes and popping out of unexpected places while Danny and Joyce chase him for the next couple of days.
Well, that’s interesting! Given the way he flees at such a simple question, I suspect that there is something there that Joe hates and fears more than anything else: Real feelings. I suspect that his fear became anger, as is its wont, and Joe used his list to lash out at the cause of his discomfort.
Whether or not I’m right, he’s definitely lashed out at Joyce for some reason!
The simplest explanation for him lashing out at Joyce is in response to the punching during their date. For anything else, you’d have to assume he changed the list much more recently.
And while you’re almost certainly right that he’s fleeing the emotional implications of the question, I’m amused at the idea he’s still in fear of more punching.
I like how Danny is phrasing his getting ‘Joe’ to a safe place as sparing JOYCE. Like, he’s not worried about getting Joe somewhere safe, he’s worried about getting this ass away from Joyce, and that’s clear if you’re paying attention.
And Joe is NOT paying attention, so that subtext is flying over his head. ‘Eh, she can’t hurt me.’ Because somehow, he’s convinced that Danny wants to protect HIM. Selective hearing, much?
Ooh, good catch on that interpretation of that. And yeah, you’re absolutely right. Danny is no longer interested in getting Joe “safe” for Joe or for “old time’s sake”, but now just to spare other women from his jackholery.
And yeah, Joe is really good at selectively ignoring clear social cues when they are inconvenient to what he wants.
Mmhmm, hell, she’s even in the location where shit went down (though it’s unclear whether or not Dorothy would have told her). This is her taking baby steps in recovery and it’s beautiful to see.
Second that. She’s speaking as Joyce directly to Joe, not as one stereotype to another. It terrifies him. But there’s also an opportunity there if he’ll take it.
It can be super powerful. Like it doesn’t always work (and in some spaces it almost never works), but when it does that direct and earnest appeal to a person’s humanity can leave a big impact.
Wanted to get all the comic reactions out tonight but I’m running out of steam, so rest will be in morning. But here’s the first panel at least.
Comic Reactions:
CONTENT WARNING: Racism and Sexism
Panel 1: Ah, fatphobia and racism. Two amazing flavors that go great together.
And those eyes by Danny. I wonder if this is the first time he’s “seen” Joe’s list. Maybe ever, certainly at least in a long time. And its content disturbs him which it probably should. It’s an appalling list on about ninety different levels.
And I think that highlights a thing. That it’s easy to develop a blind-spot surrounding a friend’s actions especially as it often feels like if they turn out to be shit, that would somehow be a condemnation of you as a person or certainly make previous time together feel like wasted time.
I think Danny has gotten used to just staying back from this whole side of Joe and sort of overlooking it as “that’s just my buddy Joe, he’s a bit of a sexist, but he’s got a good heart.” And I think this is the first time he’s really gotten up close and personal with what all of Joe’s meant in the end. How casual he was with the information, how brutally it treats women.
And that can be a hard thing. Realizing that the “problematic” side to a friend was actually a gaping red flag. And I’ve been there. I’ve cut former friends out of my life because something I foolishly overlooked or minimized in my head was a glaring sign of what they were capable of. I try to be much more vigilant these days and trust my instincts a lot more.
And to hear that, to know he can’t unhear it, Danny has been forced to fully face what enabling Joe has meant, what he was actually saying to women when he got upset on Joe’s behalf. I have a lot of sympathy and this is part of growing up as well. Realizing that no, that “slightly” racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic friend isn’t worth defending on those aspects and that instead it’s important to call it out early rather than letting it metastasize.
And so it deepens the crack between them.
The list itself is also very revealing because of what it is and what it isn’t.
Each description and notes have been largely appearance focused with very rare comments as to emotion or behavior and no comments as to intellect or chemistry. On top of that, they are incredibly non-subtle and it doesn’t take more than a second to piece together who is talking about with any given person. And the notes and descriptions include useful stalking tips. So you end up with a thing that all but uses their name as it sets their appearance and location for any to find.
But still they don’t use names. And I’m sure if I called Joe to the carpet he’d claim it was to “protect the anonymity of the girls” despite him handing this list to everyone he met and viewed it as an objective community resource. But the reality is, we’ve seen it in comic*, that he doesn’t care about the women he pursues to bother to learn their names, not at least at first when he makes these descriptions.
And that’s probably partially intentionally. It’s easier to justify mistreating a marginalized person if you can remove the idea that they are human or anything alike you. Like, this is the reason there’s so much money in the “X outgroup” is nothing like “Y dominant group” lecture and book circuit. Because people who are invested in continuing systems of oppression need and want a means to justify it to themselves, to tell themselves that it’s okay, you’re just practically a different species to X marginalized group, that perpetuating this is only the natural way the world works.
And so there’s a lot invested in selling story after story about how men and women are aliens to each other owing to stereotype bullshit. In selling stories about how “criminal”, “unintelligent”, or “animalistic” non-white people are. In selling the idea that gay people are coming for your rights and are nothing like your good moral Christian community.
So treat them as numbers and descriptions, pay no attention to the damage this book could do if it got out, leave no record of their names, it’s all okay, because women are just ambulatory sex organs and not actually people in their own right.
“hijab girl”, reducing Asma to the religious accoutrement she wears in the contextual culture of a US that is in the midst of violently mistreating muslim women and targeting them based solely on said article of clothing*.
*Like a young teenager wearing a hijab is what “set off” the Portland nazi who stabbed three people.
And that’s his reduction for her. Just “racial category” “behind the front desk”*.
*Which is also likely dangerous. There’s been an explosion of anti-muslim hate crimes and harassment on campuses with asshole alt-righters targeting their fellow students who are muslim based on stuff like this. So this basically served as a giant welcome sign to harassers that “a muslim woman you can dump all your racist baggage on” is in this trapped space where she’s not allowed to express being pissed off at you.
Ah. I see your point, but I don’t think I agree (I agree telling the world “here’s a muslim” might be endangering her, though).
The reduction is obvious and expected – it’s not like he doesn’t reduce everyone else. That she’s slightly more reduced than the other entries of the do list strikes me as coming from the same place as “insufficient data” – the hijab and her position behind the counter don’t let him categorise her the same way he categorises the other girls. There’s no hint of him presenting Asma wearing a hijab in a negative manner. Sal is “could be a 10, but smokes”, but Asma isn’t “insufficient data, but she DOES wear a hijab…”
I’m not saying that entries in the do list aren’t awful, it just doesn’t look like Asma’s more awful than the other ones (except, as you pointed out, that it flags her for every xenophobic shit on campus).
No, it’s not, more that there’s just reductive bigoted stuff meshed into a lot of the sexist reductive stuff. With fatphobia, racist tropes like angry black woman, and the racist trope of reducing a muslim woman to her headwear.
Like it’s just a shit cherry on an already pretty awful sundae.
In full honesty, I’m still not sure I get it, and I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be able to pick up on it “in the wild”, as it were, but I defer to your better attunement to these things. I detected the awful sundae, though, so hopefully me not getting the shit cherry won’t be problematic.
Clarification: Of course I can tell calling Asma “hijab girl” is awful – I’m tonedeaf, not braindead; I’m not sure I could tell that her entry is worse than the other two, is what I mean.
I think it’s more that it’s not a competition? The statement is racist, and that doesn’t change based on the awfulness of the statements around it. nor on the intentions of the person who said it.
There’s a joke that goes something like “I’m not racist, I hate everyone equally”. That’s not how racism actually works. … but there are plenty of people who want to encourage the idea that it does work that way so they can do racist things and not face any consequences.
Hell, the thing about these kinds of common stereotypes is they are designed to fly under the radar, because that’s what gets relentlessly sold to us in movies, TV, and political culture. So it just seems normal when divorced from its other contexts or usages.
Heck, I still fuck up on this kind of stuff, as it’s hard to be fully aware of all of the privileges and microaggressions. It’s just part of awareness. 😀
….man, that does kind of imply that Joe specifically described her that way because “I can’t see enough of her body and hope to change that”, doesn’t it?
It’s not like he’s had conversations with every girl he’s ranked.
I’m thinking that it’s in “‘front desk hijab girl’ is marked ‘insufficient data.'” As I read it, Joe is implicitly reducing her headscarf/clothing to something between his eyes and the only part of her he’s interested in — her body. In reality, it could mean much more to her than that (though I doubt she’s upset that it kept her off the list). Arguably not ‘racist’ per se, but pretty disgusting regardless.
Did you get anything else from Billie and Sal’s quote unquote ‘entries’? Because I am just sitting here seething that Joe goes around looking for casual fucks all the time but apparently Billie coming up to him once, casually, equals desperate.
Yup, that bothers me a lot. Like, it’s such old-school sexist bullshit. Oh, I need to vomit my horny on everyone who walks past, but if someone approaches me in a friendly manner looking for casual sex, then they must be “desperate” and thus unattractive.
It’s the rape culture logic of a woman must be always willing and game to be “pushed” into sex but not be seen as someone who would have it willingly.
Which makes me wonder how he’d like Sal (assuming he just saw her and didn’t actually interact with her – though I wouldn’t be shocked if he was catcalling or something because Joe’s a creepy fuck) – she doesn’t tend to like people coming onto her, and only seems into things where she initiates flirting or whatever.
Panel 1 (cont): I also love how offended and angry Joyce gets on behalf of Dorothy. And how much Joyce sees her as a beautiful tropical fish who does not deserve that kind of crappy assessment.
But it also creates a strong contrast to Joe and highlights how they each focus on the people in their lives. Like, for Joyce, Dorothy is an 11ty hundred/10 because of her kindness, her intelligence, her grace, her empathy and dogged loyalty, etc…
But to Joe, all Dorothy is is her physical appearance and how likely she is to do him. Like it’s such a superficial understanding of the person that the fact that he’s wasted years on this misogynist dumpster fire is made even more of a joke.
Like, it’s okay to be turned on by a person solely by their appearance but there’s no way you should be ejaculating those feelings on everyone and acting like this is the gold standard of romantic and sexual attraction. Like everyone else has the same deliberately dulled tastes or priorities in a partner either sexual or romantic. Like your boner log fucking matters.
And that’s been the worst thing of this ill-advised “list”. That he genuinely seems to believe he’s leaving behind an objective and crucial tool for lady assessment that is universally applicable. That this is useful in a way that justifies giving potential stalkers coordinates to potential victims (both to mock and bully the low-numbers and to endlessly sexually harass the high-numbers). He’s treating a hobby of essentially keeping a running log of boner reactions like it matters to justify to himself why he’s wasted his life on something horrible that no one who doesn’t have ill intent has actually wanted his list.
He’s constructing a fantasy, all to avoid owning that he did something incredibly sexist and fucked up and gross. And he’s still doubling down on it all. Joyce asks him in genuine concern if she’s the only 0 and he’s immediately quick to repeat the shit and own it fully.
And there’s layers to this. Joyce’s worry is not because she genuinely gives a fuck about the number, but because this was the person she turned to and put trust in when she was trying to survive her trip home. This was someone she had thought she had repaired into a strong friendship. And yet he was saying all his awful stuff and reporting in his dick blog how she’s the unsexiest creature in the universe.
And he’s standing by it now. Not apologizing for hurting her or owning he did something wrong. But doubling down on the bad thing. And I think Joe serves as an excellent demonstration of something I’ve seen way too often in a certain kind of guy who is heavily invested in toxic masculinity.
And that’s the refusal to ever own wrong-doing or admit they’ve ever made a mistake. Like, think of Trump or Bush and the convoluted knots they tied themselves into to avoid ever changing their mind or acknowledging and apologizing for their misdeeds, doing everything in their gaslighting powers to rewrite history all to avoid admitting they were wrong or hurt people.
And it all stems down to the weird toxic masculinity rules we’ve made up. Where we decided that apologizing or growing and evolving in one’s positions is some girly thing girls do and that real men double-down no matter what. And it makes so many of them utterly insufferable and meaningless to deal with.
Even when it’s hurting one of the few people he has, he holds his fragile masculinity as more important. He’s willing to hurt himself so completely just to avoid being seen in a group of only 2 other people as someone who lets themselves become vulnerable and admit fault.
Also, can we talk about how he described Dorothy when he was adding her to the list? “Nice rank, but could use more booty. Kinda bookish’. That is his assessment of someone who is supposed to have been his friend since he was 15.
Mm hmm, even someone who has been with him for years, who has reached out and gotten his back multiple times when she had no reason to, who is someone he is at least willing to pretend is his friend, she’s just a number based on his initial boner reaction to her tits.
Because he fears so intensely being seen as a person who sees women as people rather than ambulatory sex organs.
The thing to remember about this is that the duration of the strips involving Joe’s list getting hacked/leaked? For us it’s been days, for him, 15 minutes at most.
Don’t get me wrong, everything leading up to this period is Joe at full jackass mode. But I hesitate to assume what his actual stance on all of this is. One generally needs time to process shit like this, right now Joe’s all about getting to a place he’s comfortable so he can think.
Joyce seemed like that for a bit. Now that she’s asks a hard question? Not so much.
People don’t often confront the bad shit they do unprompted. I am not defending what he was doing or his attitude towards women up to this point, I’m only saying that his mind is still in crisis “I don’t want to think about this” mode.
Indeed, like it’s not like people haven’t told him his list is shitty. Pretty much everyone in his life has asked him to knock it off and that it’s awful and reductive. And he’s still shoved it in everyone’s faces that he could.
And only now that he was briefly in an environment with consequences where those consequences were “a number of women are upset with you but not in a way that poses any real physical threat” does he even recognize anything wrong.
And it’s not even that his list was wrong. He’s still defending his list, still refusing to take ownership, and the second he’s dragged to a space where he’s not receiving that most mildest of consequences he’s back to his old self not giving a fuck about how his actions have affected others.
Like, he’s been actively not thinking about this for a long time, and I think his natural inclination where he finds a quiet space to clear his head will be to try and reassert his fantasy narrative in his head about the list, cause that’s what he’s trying to do here until Joyce asks him a tough question.
I got the impression that he clarified it to “zero minus” because at this point it’s not about rating attractiveness, it’s about “practically excising her from the list” and I feel like he wants her to understand that this is basically a refusal to rate, and that’s why it’s so over the top.
And that’s why he ran away from her question: he doesn’t feel bad about giving her a NaN rating, but the actual rating he’d given her way back when? Yup that’s not a topic he ever wanted to breach, and he probably doesn’t even understand himself why it feels so OUCH to bring it up (it’s because rating women is bad, Joe, and Joyce is not an exception but the rule you’re only now starting to notice)
And I love how what finally gets Joe to scram is Joyce engaging with his system at face value. She’s not yelling at him for its very existence, she’s taking it exactly the way he always wanted it to be taken, and THAT’s what finally gets through to him.
Because when he rated Joyce as a 4, he did not expect to ever have her, his friend, look at him and ask what her rating was.
Because this system IS dehumanizing and humiliating and friendship-negating-before-it-could-even-start, and it’s only now starting to dawn on Joe that it might have been one big bad idea.
I mean I know I may sound like a bit of a jerk, but I will admit to rating how attracted I am to a guy. They change as I get to know the person, but it helps me kinda identify what exactly it is that I find attractive. IDK maybe I’m just weird.
By the way, is making such a list a punishable offence if it gets traced back to Joe? I know I’d feel really creeped out and unsafe if I found out a guy was thinking of me this way. I’d wonder what I did wrong, was I over familiar with him, was I dressed the wrong way…before I realised that it didn’t matter what I did or didn’t do. My very existence caused me to be in that list. So can Joe possibly be punished?
Legally? Veeeeeery unlikely. I mean, theoretically, you should have the opportunity in some places… But considering actual rape and stalking gets treated so badly, something like this would never make it past a cop that at best is sympathetic, at worst is laughing at you.
Socially, it depends a lot on the local environment. At least in this place, it seems like Joe will get… Well, not properly punished, but at least shunned hard.
Nope. There’s no real laws about stuff like this and even socially people tend to get upset with you if you go off on a man about behavior stuff like this, because that means in society’s eyes that you’re a “fun-killing feminist who can’t take a joke”.
It’s deeply not right and we should have a culture where people who act like Joe are socially shunned until they fix their shit, but it’s not the one we live in*.
*Though it’s possible to create spaces that do do this. I’ve been a component of spaces that deliberately try and foster consent and that actively discourage reductive sexism like Joe’s.
Depends on campus policy (and how bad it’s hurting their image, if people raise a stink about it). Might be some disciplinary stuff, probably along the lines of a slap on the wrist. Possibly more, the uni is probably in CYA mode after the gunman.
Socially, there can absolutely be consequences. Shunning, yelling, anger, etc.
School wise, it could be considered sexual harassment and depending on how mean his comments for lower rated girls were, a form of bullying which might lead to disciplinary action.
I don’t know if “hurt him” is the right way to phrase it. I mean, he went on a date with her and she turned out to be kind of nuts. Bringing a physically violent chaperone along?
Yup, it’s such an important little narcissistic moment. He’s asked if maybe he should care about the woman before him and he essentially responds with “pfft, who cares how I’m hurting her, she has no means of hurting me and that’s all that matters”.
And it’s why he needs to be abandoned to be ripped apart by the people angry with him. Because that’s the only way he’s going to internalize how harmful and awful his actions have been.
Considering all we know about Joe, Im really starting to think at least part of his list’s creation is to cause what we’ve seen in the last few strips. as others have said, he hates real feelings and he’s seen in his parents relationship how real feelings go. He’s an asshole in how he’s trying to distance feelongs from other people, but as others have mentioned thats something toxic masculinity has shown him is “acceptable” (not really). Which is part of why he runs now. Joyce knows more and might be able to piece things together. Especially since his advice to her during the trip home was to hide in a place with lots of people. I have a feeling this is exactly how joe fell into that crowd of toxic masculinity and dannys fully aware of it, dorothy too. might explain why dorothy is not so confrontational on it.
And yeah, I think Joyce is cracking open the shell and taking a peek at the gears under the surface and Joe is not at all comfortable with that and viewed exactly this sort of thing as his armor against that.
Naaaah. Joe’s entire persona reeks of desperation. He’d have just as much sex without it, as neither Roz nor Penny needed his PUA bullshit (because they already wanted casual sex), and all we’ve seen with any other woman is Joe striking out hard and taking nothing short of physical violence as a strong enough “no” to stop him. (I mean, look at how he insisted on hitting on Sarah, while she was glaring death at him.)
if Joe is really “getting plenty”, he doesn’t actually act like it.
This is one of the things that bothers me about the presentation of Joe. We’ve only seen him interact with women who either are quite happy with casual sex or women who are willing to threaten physical violence.
Joe claims to have sex regularly, with multiple different women. Danny, who’d like be in the best position to know, seems to take him at face value. It’s possible he’s just lying about all of it and the only people he’s actually had sex with since college are with Roz & Penny. I don’t think that’s the narrative intent though.
I really wish we’d seen some more of his successful pickup attempts. More of how he reacts to people not interested, but not as emphatically opposed as Joyce or Sarah.
I worry we’ve seen exactly how he reacts to people who are calmly not interested, that he pressures and pressures them until they either say yes or blow up at him or find a means to escape.
Like, it would be consistent to his general PUAishness, as many of their tactics are about exploiting social niceties to monopolize more and more of a “target’s” time. And we’ve seen him be aggressively forward and even inappropriately touching women in a cold open before, with him sneaking behind Dorothy and Sierra and grabbing them without permission. With his opening line with Sierra when Sierra got thrown out of the room for sexy times. And with his approach on Rachel.
Like it seems he rolls with expressions of disinterest and keeps going only stopping when there’s an extreme reaction that women are heavily socially discouraged from giving. And that’s a thing that means if he hasn’t committed sexual assault by coercion yet, it’s only by fool’s luck.
That’s kind of how he reacted when Danny was calmly not interested in sleeping with Billie. He badgered him until he gave a “reason,” then immediately dismissed that reason.
Yup. It’s a beautiful bit of IT’S ALWAYS PROJECTION. He can run around and be essentially this desperate ball of hormones doing everything in his power to avoid feelings and “get laid”, but a woman dares approach him for a casual good time in a respectful manner and she’s the one who gets labeled “desperate” because she’s not his ideal target body type.
Joe, like most people, is a mix of privileges and non-privileges. The problem is he doesn’t just trip over his, he straight up smothers himself in them.
Note that he specifically says “You punched me in the face.” where ‘you’ could either be referring to Joyce or Mike or both. Joyce’s response is “Our fists were instruments of the Lord.” Ours. So it’s pretty safe to assume she landed at least one punch herself after Mike was finished.
Who CARES what rating Joe gives to Joyce or indeed anybody? He’s not Bill Clinton. Even Clinton at his sleaziest didn’t rate women online. He wouldn’t have gotten to be President if he was that stupid.
OK, I’m just going to suggest that you read all of Cerberus’ posts on the matter for each and every strip in Joe’s current storyline. Heck, I’ll be happy if you just read her comments for today.
The condensed version: We care because we see this toxic BS in real life; and the consequences of this happening in real life is more entitlement, more sexual assaults, more rape… And worst of all, more getting away with all of those things.
The situation this fucking time is as follows. I was woken up by my mother’s boyfriend (I’ve talked about him before), shouting at me about a phone. So, once I wake up and go downstairs to figure it out, I hear my mom shouting and go to investigate. He’s still on about the fucking phone. Once he comes out of the bedroom, I ask him outright; what the fuck is going on? Turns out, the phone is off the receiver, and he can’t find it anywhere. So, naturally, this means my mother or I relocated it. Fine, whatever, I can deal with him wanting to know where it’s at.
The problem is, he phrases everything as an accusation, basically deciding for me that I’ve had people over while he was gone and they moved his phone. Keep in mind, he’s a couple jars of whiskey in already. He keeps pressing, and I fucking snap on him. I take it waaaay to fucking far, too, but I don’t care in the moment. One thing leads to another, he’s decided I’ve gotta go. I’m effectively kicked out, and if I’m not, it’s still out in the open that he doesn’t want me here. Fine, whatever, dude. I’ll get out the moment I can, no further questions asked.
Well, I go upstairs to cool off, and decide I should probably apologise for overstepping and shouting at him. And I do. He took off to the store to get something, and when he got back, I was waiting on the couch, ready to say my piece and be done with it. And I did say what I had to say, without backpedaling, and making it clear that if he honestly wants me out, I’m out at the first opportunity. I don’t pay bills or really help around the house much, so whatever.
And then the rant started. “You’re not a man, you don’t deserve to eat, you should be hungry all the time, you don’t earn anything”, yadda yadda yadda. Effectively “You have no job, and therefore are worthless”. What the fuck ever, I’ve heard it all a thousand times. The fucking problem is, it took a goddamn hour and a half to say all of it, and it diverted into tangents about his upbringing, ableist shit about my autism, and more fun goodies about how much of a contest our lives are (which, way to go dumbass, you’ve implied that you see me as competition in the first place).
Long story short (I hope), this place is no longer a viable option, and I’ve finally got the fire under my ass to put my all into job searching and getting out on my own. I’ve got a buddy keeping an eye out for low-rent houses or apartments, so there’s that. Not really gonna ask anyone here for help, since I’ve still got the resources handy from the last crisis, and y’all have done plenty on that front. Just needed to get all this vented.
As an aside, it’s a little weird to scroll for several days through screens and screens and screens of posts trying to reverse-engineer Joe’s rating system.
Eh, folks can ship what they like (obvious exceptions for rape, abuse, statutory issues, etc.) but people should have accurate info on their ships. And this particular piece of info is ‘I need a shower’ territory, at least for me.
No, I agree! I don’t ship Joe/Joyce right now but I’m not opposed to other people shipping it. I can see I wasn’t clear enough in what I meant by “this PARTICULAR bubble” — the he-must-have-rated-her-a-10 bubble.
Danny’s face is incredibly evocative here. He’s pissed at Joe. Maybe for what Joe’s been doing and the sheer enormity of it. Maybe because he’s exploited Danny for years to enable this level of awful hurtful bullshit and is still trying to exploit him now (demanding Danny literally drag him away from the consequences of his actions, for instance). Maybe because he’s still mistreating women in front of him while demanding an escape from the consequences of doing exactly that. Honestly, I think it might be all of the above, but especially the latter.
Cause yeah, Joe is still treating women like shit to their faces. Still doubling down on the awful, learning no lessons from the clusterfuck he just demanded Danny drag him from. Revealing the casual lie in his little emotional tactic from earlier to get Danny to reprise his old “Joe rescuer” role, exploiting Danny’s compassion and desire to do right by his friends when they are hurting.
And I think Danny might be real close to done dealing with it, which is going to be terrible for Joe, because he is drifting dangerously close to losing literally every one of his friends through no fault but his own.
Yet still Joe doubles down and reveals more awfulness. Like, dismissing Joyce as “just Joyce”, despite the fact that he really should be apologizing at the very least. And acting like she’s only something to worry about if she “bothers” him. This despite the fact that he had Danny drag him out not because women were bothering him, but because they had legitimate grievances that needed to be addressed.
And instead he’s throwing it away in a heartblink and treating Joyce’s earnest, calm, and compassionate reaction to his hurtful crap like nothing to be even remotely concerned about because it’s doesn’t pose a “threat” of consequence.
Which is also a thing with him. Unless a woman is blowing up at him and showing an anger that society says is inappropriate for women to feel, he tends to not much value what they say unless it’s consenting to sex. Like, he has this dismissive style when a woman is trying to calmly discuss something with him, especially with regards to his behavior. We’ve seen that before in how he treated Sarah when she tried to talk to Joe about his then upcoming date with Joyce as well as in the open heckling he did of Roz or in the complete goofball mockery of Dorothy when she’s tried to reach out.
Unless a typical woman is saying “fuck me” or blowing up at him he doesn’t really pay attention and I feel like that is something deeply inherited from his fucked up dad given his description of his divorcing parents as “yelling a lot”.
And that’s also so bad for him, because it means he’s telling the women in his life that he’s not going to take them seriously unless they fill that screaming woman role that is something he still has baggage about.
Panel 3: The pettiness of Joe’s little fit of revenge in labeling her zero minus is so telling of so much in so many ways. Both the aggrieved entitlement Joe has about the women he pursues, but also the sublimated way he treats real objections to behavior.
Like, Joe has a legitimate grievance in the date with Joyce* (she paid a guy to beat him up, was openly dismissive to his religion and past pains, and was a terrible date overall), but none of that makes it in. Just the number change.
*More than Joyce, certainly, but it’s worth noting that Joyce has some legitimate grievances about that date as well, most damningly about how hard he worked to remove key consent barriers in trying to ditch the chaperone and circle every conversation back to sex and his little “seduction” game.
And it reveals subconsciously that he wants the women in his life to know their numbers and care about them and have them work to “improve” themselves in his standing by being more game to get freaky with him or otherwise give him things he wants. We saw that with Roz when he tries to sell her “being seen as a ten” in exchange for ending class early as well as him bumping Roz up a point because she wanted to film their time together.
This is something he wanted to get out, but only in fits and starts and individually with the women so they couldn’t coordinate their anger about the system, but instead just feel pressure to fulfill the self fantasy he’s constructed. He wanted Joyce to one day know her number to know it was a 0- and have that serve as “punishment” to her, so she would know how he hurt her.
But he wasn’t ready for the compassionate and calm reading of that. For himself to be psychologically analyzed and deconstructed like this. For it to come off so obviously as a post-hoc attempt at pettiness that clearly changed (and was the only thing to change*) after the date.
*Like that puts a lie to his list as any actual useful resource to anyone other than the sad boner diary it is. He doesn’t put in information a person actually seeking to date these people would need to know. What their personalities are like, red flags (like “Warning: she’ll bring violent person to date who’ll punch you repeatedly if you say sex stuff”), or anything useful. Just immediate physical boner reaction and where to find them and he only goes back to fiddle with the number because that’s all that matters to him.
Panels 4: This is an amazing line, because it cuts so powerfully and it’s just so calmly given. Like, given Joyce’s position outside and recent events, I’m imagining she’s had to deal with some Dorothy and maybe Amber stuff these last couple of days, so this is just a drop in the bucket and so she genuinely asks what she was when she was being hunted. What was the numbers Joe used to target her and see her as something to bang.
And it’s also a partial acknowledgment of the wrong she did in the date. That that was an action that hurt him.
But it’s also terrifying for Joe. Because talking about hurt rather than hurt sublimated into treating women like shit is scary for him, feels unmasculine, feels dangerous. He’ll literally run away rather than have an honest conversation than acknowledge that he’s just as much of a bag of emotions as anyone else
She was a “four” he saw as repressed and as someone he could “lightly pressure” into becoming a wild explosion of lust as a “ten”, as something he could literally fix with his penis as he tells Sarah, pushing her to “fulfill” her role in womanhood as a quite literal thing that gets fucked by a man.
And he tried to dress this up all real fancy and in sex-positivity clothes*, but this is the logic of corrective rape.
*There’s a common strain of awful “sex-positive” dudes that try and argue that sex-positivity is really about always being down to fuck them and willing to do anything sexually no matter one’s boundaries and to do anything else is to be “frigid and repressed”. I blame Dan Savage a lot for this, as his GGG “ideal relationship partner” got turned into a weapon a lot by shitty young dudebros who say it as a great way to push on their sexual partners’ boundaries. Which is why these days there’s a number of asexuals who have bad connotations with sex positivity entirely because of being targeted by guys like this when they tried to do activism in those spaces.
That there is something wrong with a person not openly seeking sex with men or seeming “frigid”, that them being asexual or lesbian or having boundaries as to what they are interested in doing is a sign of their failure to fulfill their roles as women. As something needing to be “fixed” with “seduction” and pressure, because a woman who does not live her life in service to bringing pleasure to a man is a “waste”.
It’s something I’ve had to deal with a lot as an asexual woman who does not sleep with or date men. Because we’re holy grail targets for these kinds of men. A sort of proof of manliness above all other proofs. And I’ve been told to my face many different ways how I was a “waste” or a “tease” or various slurs for sexually active women or sex workers, because of my refusal to provide them that holy grail experience of “turning me”.
His logic for going after her was violence and so he can’t stand actually talking about it, because he knows that it will reveal the enormity of his bad behavior and duplicity of his actions. Even here, he can’t own even the smallest part of his shit.
Panel 5: And so he runs, making a lie of his guilt-tripping of Danny earlier and avoiding having to deal with any of the reality of his actions and the harm they cause. And that especially must hit home for Danny. Like, Joe made him physically drag him out of the foyer even though he clearly outweighs him, but now he runs on his own power, like he could have then when Danny tried to set a boundary of leaving him to deal with his own mess.
That is how little Joe thinks of him and their friendship.
And the worst part is Danny knows what Joe did. And I wouldn’t blame him for a second if he answered for Joe, revealing the intentional horrific awfulness of his initial targeting of her, not that I see that as something he’ll be willing to do.
And that’s going to be the biggest effect here I feel. That Danny can no longer feign ignorance to the harm his friend has been causing and how much that bothers him. And it might mean the official end to a friendship that has been getting increasingly more rocky so far in college.
“*There’s a common strain of awful “sex-positive” dudes that try and argue that sex-positivity is really about always being down to fuck them and willing to do anything sexually no matter one’s boundaries and to do anything else is to be “frigid and repressed”. I blame Dan Savage a lot for this, as his GGG “ideal relationship partner” got turned into a weapon a lot by shitty young dudebros who say it as a great way to push on their sexual partners’ boundaries. Which is why these days there’s a number of asexuals who have bad connotations with sex positivity entirely because of being targeted by guys like this when they tried to do activism in those spaces.”
Don’t forget to blame the “Free Love” crowd from the late 60s and early 70s too. Far too often, “free love” meant that (generic) you simply must be willing to have sex, whether you actually wanted to or not. That attitude kept surviving, with GGG merely being its latest iteration.
“Free Love” for some assholes meant you had to have sex with any leftist guy who asked in whichever combination. Lots of women ignored their boundaries not to be though of as bourgeois, lots of guys put a lot of pressure on the women. And lots of people experimented because it suddenly was normal to experiment – with mixed results.
It was a large step away from “sex isn’t something you talk about and only do in marriage”, going to the opposite extreme, and you can’t say that as a society, we really found a good synthesis yet. Though it boggles the mind that fundies have managed to combine the two in the most misogynistic combination possible.
So far, one of the better societies in this regard seems to be the Mosuo, an ethnic minority in China.
There, it’s the women who will invite the men they like over to their house. The man is free to accept or decline as he wishes; though generally, he will usually have shown some interest in the woman for her to make the invitation.
In addition, no monogamous marriages. Instead, the households are such that people usually live (when not being invited) in the same household throughout their lives; and the children is not reared by their biological father, but instead their mother, uncles, and aunts.
Currently, the main problem is (of course) rich Western and Chinese men who wants to “explore” this “exotic” society. And also Chinese pimps; because without the same hang-ups on sex, said women are easier to persuade to become sex workers. Both of these things have led to an increase in STDs, something this society used to be free of.
Not really, but he is instead likely to help raising his sister’s children, so it evens out. And in a way, this actually makes more sense, biologically speaking. Because while you can never be absolutely certain that the child you think you are the father of is yours*, you can be 100% certain that your sister’s children will carry some of your genes.
And like I said, those are large households, so the kid will in fact probably get more socialization in its early years than a typical “nuclear family” child. And socialization is extremely important in those early years.
*Which is most of the reason for the whole “women are a husband’s property” bullshit, courtesy of the bible (and other sources); to make sure that the father-son line (you know, the only line that matters) is “pure”.
By the way, this information was presented to me by quite a good internet friend of mine, as he personally made a month-long -real- visit to their culture, not for the dirty intentions, but because he truly wanted to -learn- about them, trying to keep as many of his own biases in check as possible (he knows he has them, so he’s not pretending he doesn’t).
And he ended up thinking that this was one of the most friendly and family-oriented societies he’d ever seen (and he’s been around a fair bit of the world). And he’s written about them too. Search up “John Lombard” and Mosuo” if you have a mind.
An extra bit of awful added to this might be Joyce’s fundie upbringing. In those kinds of religions a woman is Taught that she is supposed to fulfil her role as man’s sex toy. That this is what God expects of her.
Yeah, the main difference between fundie “chaste wife” and “free love”/GGG is mainly about who the woman must have sex with. Neither scenario really allows her to simply say no.
There’s also the small matter of how the free love and GGG rhetoric threatens social sanctions at worst and the fundie rhetoric jumps straight to an eternity of torture. Both are way out of line and need to be stomped down hard, but they’re not equivalent.
The ache is that so soon after his sickening toxic “upgrade” shit, she so completely broke his system. She shows up all pretty and friendly (… and chaperoned), and while it turned into a dumpsterfirenight of complementarian bullshitpunching, she was still kind, thoughtful Joyce at the end of the night and he was (and still is) massively unprepared for it and unable to cope.
The… next day?, he literallyreduces her to her genitals, and after the expected and inevitable we get the unexpected: Joyce is something he’s unable to cope with, and he might as well have been throwing toys at her head.
(and I love the contrast there: Walky juveniles out at Dorothy yet they both find some pretty solid happiness, while Joe MRAs out at Joyce and winds up in a pile of ugly.)
If only Joe would, y’know, maybe, have talked with someone (Danny) about, y’know, his feelings, he might just have found himself in a healthier place.
Here you go! Lets hope I post this right.
————————————————–
[The student body]
The Rosenthal List
[Mandy, Rachel, Joyce]
Have you read this?
[Joyce, Danny]
Student Joseph Rosenthal disregards women’s volontaire
And he wrote it down right there.
[Rachel] Asshole.
[Joe]
I’ve been accused
of demeaning women, [Roz]
and predation, and predation
for purposes
of a sexual frustration.
My real crime was [Roz]
failing to secure my private Do List Your hit list!
From the prudish b****es always
making everything personal.
[Danny, Joyce, Dorothy]
Joe!
[Joe]
All I did was rate attractiveness.
It’s an objective ranking system.
[Agatha]
“Objective”?
[Asma] “Objective”.
[Roz]
“Objective”!
[Danny, Joyce, Dorothy] Joe!
[Joe]
And most of you are really only mad
‘cause you weren’t a ten.
[Danny]
No…
[Student body] BOO…
[Dorothy]
Have you read this?
[Frat douches]
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
That’s one less guy to worry about.
That’s one less fight to worry about!
[Joyce]
I came as soon as I heard.
[Danny]
Whaaaaat?
[Joe]
Joyce?
[Dorothy]
Outside, on her own?
[Readers]
Damn!
[Joe]
Oh great, another
girl here to bash me
for one miscue
[Joyce]
I just want to talk to you…
[Readers]
Ooooooooh…
[Joyce]
I want to trust that you’re truly a friend of mine;
that you don’t mean any harm from these arbitrarily assigned
numbers. I know that it must be hard to trust in love [Joe]
when you know only a relationship that was devoid thereof! N-no!
But is this who you are?
Or just an unhealed scar?
Am I wrong for trusting so far?
God, please let me trust that far…
[Frat douches]
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
That’s one less guy to worry about.
That’s one less fight to worry about!
[Roz] [Frat douches, Female Students]
Heeeeey. Well he’s never gettin’ any again
At least people
know, now, (never gettin’ any again)
who they’re
dealing with. Well he’s never gettin’ any again
[Danny] (never gettin’ any again)
Heeeeey.
At least maybe Well he’s never gettin’ any again
now, he’ll
learn some (never gettin’ any again)
empathy.
[Frat douches] [Female Students]
That’s one less guy to worry about. That’s one less douche to worry about. That’s one less fight to worry about! That’s one less threat to worry about!
[Student body]
The Rosenthal List.
Have you read this?
[Danny, Joyce, Dorothy]
You ever see somebody ruin their own life?
Willis usually surprises us, so I’ll just try and preempt it and say; will this lead to Joyce and Danny having an extended conversation and possibly getting together?
Not saying it will happen, but Danny just had his latest partner mysteriously vanish from our view. His greatest feature is back. And Joyce has been through a lot of characterization so it doesn’t feel as wonky.
I don’t ship it, but Joe being the guy inadvertently responsible for setting up Danny with someone is amusing to me, since he’s actively tried a few times.
Well, there are reasons that Joyce/Danny would be a decent partnership from a compatibility standpoint, if not a storyline/plot (not that I expect it to happen)..
Danny is not a ‘threatening’ individual, in many ways he is a nice guy (remember his reason for wanting to help Sal with her math), he’s not likely to pressure Joyce into sex, he’s nominally a christian (although lapsed), and his interest in certain items of pop-culture would help Joyce build on her interests.
On the other side, Joyce would provide a more stable relationship for Danny than Amazigirl/Amber. And while she does have the fundamentalist background, her acceptance of Becky’s sexuality means she might be OK with Danny being bi (as long as he doesn’t act on things).
Wasn’t there a strip that had multiple scenes, one where Joyce was talking about marriage, and there was a cutaway that included Danny?
Don’t forget that Joyce has also done a 180 on Ethan and tried to set him free to go back with his own kind*, as well as going with him to a meet-and-greet for questioning individuals.
Still not quite sure if she’s up to date on the fact that one can like both men -and- women, though. But still, that shouldn’t be the biggest hurdle.
*She did then mention that her vocabulary needs updating, and I do believe her intentions were good when she said this. Oh Joyce, you pure pure child of summer that are so adorable when you mess up.
Joyce is rated 0-. A 10 that’s gotten rotated around by endless confusion and bewilderment on the part of the score-keeper.
And Willis: Massive props for this strip, panels 3-4 in particular. You can feel the breeze and the almost soft openness at play. I fully understand why Joe is fleeing that. (Because he’s an idiot. You are an idiot, Joe.)
At this point I see Joe as the biggest jerk in the strip, not Mike. Mike plays the jerk, but he’s genuinely done nice things for the people around him, and half the time it seems like his Machiavellian plans work out to their benefit. Not something you can say for Joe.
In another universe. In the Dumbiverse, Mike’s plans have resulted in or planned to cause:
1: Ethan crawling back into the closet.
2: Breaking up a happy couple by needling at their insecurities.
3: Deliberately reminding his alleged friends of their most horrible experience to no benefit.
4: Trying to deliberately seduce Ethan to destroy his self-esteem and wound Danny.
I think Joe is worse, but only because of how MANY people he’s hurt in this way.
Mike’s plans have never benefited anyone, except in failure, and even if he was actually helping people on purpose, the way he does it would still make him an awful person.
If he actually had the insight to play those kinds of manipulative games with people successfully, there would be thousands of ways to put such knowledge to use that would be less cruel
Eh. He got Walky the pants, helped pull Ethan out a funk, shut Joyce’s mom down to cover for Becky. Much of what he does is incredibly problematic, but not all of it.
He bought Walky pants because he knew it would cause tension between him and Dorothy.
He helped Ethan out of a funk as part of a plan to seduce him just to mess with his head.
Walky helped deflect Joyce’s mom. When Mike answered, he may have made it MUCH worse, almost certainly adding to Carol’s desire to pull Joyce out of school later on.
The only intentionally positive thing he has done was to decline Joyce’s invite to her party, acknowledging that “being nice” was not in the cards. There’s hints of something less malicious under the surface, but he hasn’t really done anything showing that it’s the case.
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a Zero-PLUS
Ouch! Actually, I’m thinking he probably gave her an 8 or better. It’s hard to resist that triangle grin!
———-//————–
For those not familiar with “Yakey Sax” (where have you BEEN?!) here’s the song, set to the 2015 Llama chase in Sun City, AZ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8mUMSi5M8g
It was a 4, until he found out she was a virgin, at which point he upgraded her to a 10. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/corrupt/
Other way around…she was a 4 because she was a virgin, but he was going to ‘break her in’* and thus upgrade her to a 10.
* God that term is creepy…
(‘Upgrade’ should also be in scare quotes. I…fear I may have given the impression I agree with him.)
We all believe you agree with Joe about this now.
Hey everyone! Kamino Neko totally shares Joe’s views on women!
“To” “be” “safe” “,” “you” “need” “to” “put” “quotation” “marks” “around” “every” “word” “or” “punctuation” “mark” “.”
*gasp*
So that’s why they call it “grinding”.
Not quite sure I agree with you on that. He originally rated Joyce a ‘4’ but when he found out just how much of a challenge she would likely be he factored in a 2.5 ‘degree of difficulty’, just like in Olympic springboard or platform diving. Thus, the original 4 x 2.5 = 10.
No, the linked strip says he’ll “upgrade” her, which means that he’s planning to change her … sex appeal … not that his opinon of her changed.
I felt like that sentence could be interpreted both ways… But on the other hand, either way is pretty fucking super-creepy, so it’s a distinction without a difference.
The comment section sure was tame and kinda uninvolved back then.
Well, it was early days, and there weren’t as many readers…and the series itself was less complex.
Yeah. It’s gotten real political. I don’t actually disagree with most of the politics that go on around here, but I do kind of miss the more lighthearted community feeling. Everyone is so serious now, it bums me out when I want to read a funny comic and go laugh about it with others in the comments.
Aye.
To be fair, the world got more political. That comic was written before the globe got diverted onto the darkest timeline.
“The darkest timeline.” Can I use that? It really captures the present circumstances.
I’ve been using “the worst of all possible worlds” partly to stick it to Pascal, of wager’s fame.
Plenty of light hearted, non political comics still out there…
“The darkest timeline” – Now I’m hoping some time-traveler can go back in time and sever the one we are in, a la Yesterday’s Enterprise.
As going back in time would only possibly create another timeline to be changed – we over here are still stuck with what’ve got. But for the better of another alternate universe, I’d hope for being able to send someone back too!
On a side note, I read once in a physicist article or book, that based on calculations, how reality is made up and everything, going back in time would only be possible up until the time until the time machine that is used existed (because otherwise: paradoxes). This does not exclude the Tardis, of course 🙂
Gahh, I meant “include”!
My, how far we’ve come since then…
holy crap that’s what this comic used to look like?? I’ve been reading since the beginning but in my brain it’s always looked exactly like it does now
Yeah, the ultra-thick line-art really threw me for a loop when I clicked the link.
My WoW guild (back when we had time to raid) used to put this on our Vent channel whenever we pulled a boss. It was fun times.
Well, back in Men Are From Beck, Women Are From Clark ( http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/corrupt/ ) he said that he was “gonna upgrade her from a four to a ten.” Although that said, I don’t know if that off-the-cuff way of explaining his plan is necessarily 100% accurate to the calculations placed on the List.
(I’m just highly entertained by the idea of Joe doing math equations in a pre-set formula to determine his rankings, I do not in any way condone his actions.)
I getcha. It’s relatable to see Joe apply his affinity for math to his everyday life – a manifestation of his inner nerd – but the moral implications of his particular application are a shame.
You look at him and go “Man, if only he would use his powers for good.”
I’d rather he partner up with Carla and use their power for hilarious evil.
This, combined with today’s strip and their date and their secret chat makes me wonder if Joe is developing a crush on Joyce. Sounds weird, but knowing how the concept of feelings is an unexplored territory to Joe, this’d explain all this antagonistic stuff he does to her. She is also probably the first girl to really, honestly open up to him, although I can think of some of them naively opening up AFTER “conquest”, but this is different and new and scary and a 10
I think it’s the opposite. Kind of.
Joe is definitely starting to develop a close relationship with him, but it’s neither sexual nor romantic. And that terrifies him.
Derp. First sentence was supposed to be “Joe is definitely starting to develop a close relationship with HER.”
Everyone knows Danny and Joe are a little married.
Jacob avatar, and callback to “a little married” Jacob remark = Win.
To be fair, he did fall for her in the Walkyverse – and also, I feel like romantic (non-sexual) is outside his wheelhouse enough to count for the character development as much as a totally platonic friendship would – possibly more, since he’s friends with Dorothy but a romantic attachment to some significant degree without instant gratification could be something he can’t just laugh off.
Developing? I am pretty certain DoA will end with the two of them walking down the aisle.
Willis has already said that DoA will probably never get past this first semester, so the concept of anybody walking down the aisle with anyone else just ain’t gonna happen.
panel one: Joyce “there is nothing you can do to change my mind, Danny”
Panel two: SEVEN SEMESTER LATER
Panel three: dum dum da dum
Brought to you by the wonderful world of comics time. Ta da!
Panel four..
“Oh yeah… This all really started after that thing with Amber and that guy with the scarred face…
“Oh yeah! I’d forgotten about that…”
“Well… we never really talked about it.”
“Whatever happened to Amber, anyway?”
You remember Amber, Danny’s ex, the one that kept a femur on her wall all through her studies
Its funny, because when he said Yakety Sax, I thought that was suppose to be the song Yakety Yak XD https://youtu.be/C42a5NlunEk
I’m surprised I actually know this.
Also: I like your profile picture! 🙂
I was thinking of the EXACT same clip. Fellow late 80s/early 90s kid I assume? 😉
Born within 1990. What glorious years to grow up in. Kind of helps that I seemed to have been more mature for my age by time I was 6 to appreciate a lot of the culture during that time.
I’ve only ever known it as the “Bennie Hill theme” tbh
Yep.
]I reflexively await Joe colliding, in the next strip, with a little bald Briton in a runaway wheelchair.
Benny Hill brought it to the masses. I have it on a 78rpm record!
Boots Randolph brought it to the masses.
Benny Hill just helped himself to it.
You can’t escape your destiny Joe
I suddenlty have an image of their little spat ending with a reenactment of “Dead girl walking” from heathers
Hopefully not the reprise!
What floor are dannny and joe on, might make it hard for her to snap off his window lock
Maybe if she has a training montage with Sal?
NO! Montages are a gateway to dream sequencing.
You must face Darth Joyce again
… and that, kids, is how I met your mother.
Nook! That’s not true! That’s unslappable!
Curse you, autocorrect! ::beats it up with the letter k::
that is an amazing autocorrection, never change
probably ended something like this – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZISvVfLQ4w
That face in that last panel is saying “feet don’t fail me now”
“footwork don’t desert me, don’t turn back now that we’re here~!
People always say, life is full of women, no-one ever mentions, fear~!”
Well that’s not a song I expected to see referenced.
How about this?
“If I can learn to do-list, you can learn to do-list! Something in you knows it – there’s nothing to it! Follow in my counting, two-by-two! You can learn to do-list too!”
(and the reprise as Joe realizes he’s falling for Joyce in this universe as well: “It’s one-two-three, and suddenly, I see it at a glance – she’s radiant, and confident, and born to take this chance… I planned it all, I just forgot… romance… Joe, how could you do this? How will I get through this? I never should have let her dance!” :P)
Tomorrow he’s not in the strip, instead we see him peeking out from behind one of the banner ads halfway down the page.
Didn’t Joe relent and move Dorothy up to an eight?
Maybe she lost a point for getting with Walky.
Nah. Joe seems the sort that’s give Dorothy an upgrade for having experience.
Remember, his reaction to Roz having filmed them having sex and putting it online with a shrug. Dude’s got a fuckton of faults, but he somehow dodged slut-shaming (…unless I’m missing a crude joke of his at some point crap I probably am).
I can’t remember any instance of Joe slut-shaming either. He’s one of the more sex-positive characters in the comic. Just, y’know, not always for the right reasons.
…and that’s why some asexuals treat ‘sex positive’ as a bad word.
Sort of like HIV+? I’d avoid using such a serious, sexual judgement charged example, but I can’t think of a similarly well known one. The only other one I can think of is Toxoplasmosa+.
I can see why some asexuals would have bad experiences with the word. But I always saw having the sexual agency to deny sex as part of being sex positive. Then again, the agency to deny sex was part of second wave feminism, but somehow all the people at the time ignored it in favor of the “free love” narrative. So I guess some things never change.
Yup, which is why I identify as sex-positive asexual as I see people being open and building good consent practices about sex also allows real conversation and acceptance of boundaries and their validity (we die in the shadows sort of a thing).
But I fully empathize with aces who are like “fuck sex positivity” because of the “being sex positive means positively being on my dick” douchebags. Like, yeah, that shit can get tiresome as fuck in sex positive spaces*.
*As can, the weird acephobia sex positive places can get where everyone gets wrapped up in performative horny and making universalist statements on “everyone’s” sexualities that ignore the possibility of ace altogether, viewing it as a subset of “repressed”.
He did GET slut-shamed at one point, though.
By Joyce, no less.
In gender studies class.
Joe is a straight-up dude, within limits. He told Danny(?) straight out, that if a girl was drunk or crying, it would be wrong and she should be left alone.
He also called Sarah, for implying he would rape Joyce
Except that his defense was… less than stellar.
I mean, the way he’d earlier described Joyce as someone who “needs to be broken in”, and his rather creepy tale of how he would “introduce Joyce to womanhood”, I somehow doubt (as in, I really fucking doubt) that “guide her willingly” really meant just that.
He also commented on how alcohol helps with threesomes.
Exactly where his threshold lies isn’t clear.
Well, the approach of alcohol is that it can be a social lubricant in a lot of ways, letting people relax a bit and let themselves do things they might be too nervous and self-conscious about doing.
That’s often how it’s presented in popular culture. Not people getting wasted, but having a couple and saying “Ah, what the hell”. There’s a point between “I’ve had so much booze I can’t stand” and “I’ve had a glass of wine, hell, I’m still legal to drive” where ones ability to provide consent disappears, and it’s not a well-marked one :(.
There’s also an important distinction between using it to get around your *own* anxiety and using it to get around someone *else’s* boundaries.
…………yeah, that’s a good point.
*chews on foot in mouth*
There’s also a distinction between a mutual attraction that neither of you might have acted on without some alcohol and cruising parties looking for girls whose inhibitions have been lowered.
It’s not illegal. It’s not rape or assault. But it’s still skeevy as hell.
Part of the problem, as I’ve said before, is that we don’t know how Joe behaves in those situations. We haven’t actually seen a single successful seduction by Joe. We’ve seen him shot down with great force. We’ve seen the aftermath with Roz & Penny, but not the initial contact.
We also know that, whatever his line on consent, Joe has serious trouble respecting boundaries short of that legal line. That rarely gets better with the addition of alcohol.
He also apparently was partially blacked out since he couldn’t remember what kind of threesome it was he took part in. So maybe he has some weird idea that if he’s sloshed halfway to hell then it’s ok for him to then get involved with some one else who’s drunk? That’s…very dumb. Just so many layers of stupid. It doesn’t matter if you’re more drunk than the person you’re approaching, that’s still crossing a consent barrier.
I don’t think they’re saying he dropped her for GETTING with Walky, I believe the point is he dropped her a point for getting with WALKY.
He said he would if Danny got pissy. He may not have actually done so.
the only person who wants to know
I bet a lot of us want to know.
Audience members excepted of course
how does his ranking system work. I mean is it physically based entirely or is there a list of things. (For example say his list comprised of Body, personality, self-respect and hobbies)
Sal losing points for smoking is right in this strip!
That could still be physical. It probably makes her breath stink.
its apparently common for people to
bypass someone on dating aps if their pic or profile includes the fact that they smoke (sorry for the 2 part comment, hit the wrong button)
Yep. It feels mean to say but being close to people with serious smoking habits can actually be kind of taxing. And if you’re at the point in you’re life when you’re looking for long term relationships/starting a family I can see how smoking would be a deal breaker
wasn’t disagreeing, but, wait? Sal once said she doesn’t actually smoke, she just likes having something in her mouth, like an oral fixation.
She does smoke, she was only saying that she wasn’t smoking it at that exact time. She was indoors and thought Danny was coming to tell her to put it out. She specifically doesn’t smoke pot, but does smoke cigarettes.
let’s see…..(searching, searching searching) wow, danny has a lot of pages, probably should used sals pages…..AH HA! – http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/lit/
Well, she’s saying it’s not lit at that point…that’s not quite the same thing as ‘I don’t smoke’.
…We SEE Sal smoking all the time. It wasn’t lit in that strip, probably because they’re inside. Which, if you’re gonna smoke, is like, basic courtesy.
The best avatar, BBCC.
Funny thing is I have asthma. XD
Actually, upon looking closer, she has her cigarette lit in the avatars. And the NSFW ad up beneath the comic ALSO has her with a lit cigarette.
I’m not mad, just kinda surprised that people bring up that strip as proof she doesn’t actually smoke when we see her light up plenty. I mean, she’s not a chain smoker or even a particularly heavy smoker, but regularly enough. 33/280 strips where we either see the smoke is lit, see smoke, or can assume from context (being outside, going off wherever) that she’s smoking. That’s 11.7% of her appearances. Again, not a chain smoker at all, but still often enough to know that she does in fact smoke.
Smoking is one of my few instant deal breakers, because it makes their hugs smelly. I’m sure they’re all great in other ways, but smokers should not kid themselves — that smell lingers.
Don’t worry, most of us know. Just like we generally know why it’s a nasty habit health wise and typically wish we had never started.
For myself, I put it, among other pertinent facts that aren’t likely to change and which I know are deal breakers for many, up front on my own dating site profiles for a reason. No reason to waste my own time nor anyone else’s on a date that is going to get off on a bad foot because of something like that.
If I were in the market, it would be a dealbreaker for me, too…because I have asthma, and don’t need to dealing with smoke.
yeah, tobacco gives me instant coughing fits. not fun. especially when you’re a kid and get in trouble for for being “rude”. grrrrr
otoh, pot smoke is fine so long as I don’t try to smoke it myself 🙂 and most vaporizers don’t even register. I wish they were cheap so everyone would switch to those and let me breathe in peace.
TBH, smoking is a dealbreaker for me in a partner as well. Tobacco smoke will give me a migraine. So, if someone’s going to smoke around me, it’ll cause me to vomit around them. I can’t even stand the smell of it on a person’s clothes.
I’m a strict non-smoker, but I can endure a bit of smoking – though it’ll also give me headache and most often damage my voice in some way – talking gets difficult, and I can’t breath well (though I don’t have asthma) Now to my point: My sister and her husband used to be smokers, but gave it up, for health benefits, thankfully. I used to look after their cats sometimes, staying overnight because they lived far away. Coming home the next evening, and realising that my hair smelled of smoke, as well as my clothing, in contrast to the clean air, was very uncomfortable (especially if it was too late to take a shower). I’ve also attended parties of smokers after which my hair still smelled of smoke AFTER I had already washed it. So: perfectly understandable for it to be a deal breaker to some people
But
(I like my air pretty damn unadulterated.)
Okay, that was a flurb.
But “You can still smell her coolness on it!”
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/03-up-all-night-to-get-vengeance/borrowed/
It seems to be a ranking of how desirable that person is for a hookup. Physicality is the biggest part, but I guess you lose points for things that make a hookup less desirable or easy.
he was wrong. she can hurt him and running is his only hope. I assume. for now at least.
For some women, the most hurtful thing Joe could do is give them a HIGH rating.
Also fourth panel Joyce looks really nice for some reason. Maybe it’s the hair.
Agreed
I think the shape of the hair gives the panel a feeling of motion that breaks the plane, implying the presence of both a third and fourth dimension. That sort of thing is aesthetically satisfying.
oh…. that’s really insightful, thank you.
Thanks, I pulled it out of my ass
Pablo360 Absolutely, so much. Also, I think combining it with “What *was* I, Joe, before I hurt you?” gives it a very….I don’t know, gentle-but-also-armor-piercing quality that makes it tug at the heart.
ah so not just me.
It’s a combination of that (especially the wind’s effect, I’m assuming wind is making it shift that way) plus the engorged irises. I would also argue that her acknowledgement of her own negative behavior during that date has something to do with it. It ties up the emotion in the panel.
She always looks nice. 4th panel has that cover girl hair-blowing-in-the-wind type look though.
Now that Amber has presumably hung up the cape, Joyce gets the “off-panel wind” attractiveness bump.
Have I missed something? I didn’t get the impression that Amber hung up the cape- in fact I think her trauma from the fight will push her further into separating her identities, rather than encourage her to stop being AG. But I could be wrong.
Yup, she looks great in this strip and I can’t tell if it is the art or the story that’s most to blame.
Apparently, Joe wasn’t in the mood to discuss ALL feelings.
Taking in account the OG-verse…
I’d say a nine?
SHE ASKED IT, SHE ACTUALLY ASKED IT
and he ran because he knows four is a bad number and knows it will hurt her and since they got closer like well actual people instead of a bed target he doesnt want to, but maybe he doesnt feel like he can lie to her? idk im tired.
I’m confident he ran away because she had been a very high number, not a low one. Run, Joe.
She was a four and he wanted to make her a ten with the power of sex.
That’s basic arithmetic. Four plus sex equals ten.
Boooo, bad pun, go in the corner!
I don’t the scale works that way.
Perhaps that implies that she’s a ten with a major, easily eliminated, defect. I don’t get the impression that Joyce is an “objective” ten (ick, trying to get into Joe’s head on this subject) which would mean she’s a ten in that she pushes all his personal buttons just right. So he runs.
He ran away because Joyce didn’t hit him with the hate and scorn that he was braced for, but rather the empathy for a vulnerability he is incapable of openly acknowledging.
I don’t know whether Joyce did that deliberately for vengeance, or unintentionally while showing grace. Either way, WIN.
knowing joyce, most definitely unintentionally
I don’t think Joyce is compatible with that kind of vengeance. I can see her going through *fiery* vengeance, as in punishing those who have hurt people close to her, but that’s an immediate thing, not the kind of “screw with your head” version that this would be (and Mike would applaud).
I really like the way her hair flows in the third and fourth panel.
Sorry I’ll see myself out.
I agree, something about that fourth panel is especially nice looking.
*changes the Muzak selection to Pink Floyd’s “Run Like Hell”*
Their gonna send you back to mother in a cardboard box! You’dbetterrun!
Danny: Joe do you want to talk about your feelings?
Joe: WHAT NO I DON’T WANT TO DO THAT
Danny: but
Joe: NONONONONONO *breaks into beatboxing*
Joe: ah man Danny did you record that
Danny: ummmm no
Joe: WHAT WHAT DID K TELL YOU MAN ABR ALWAYS BE RECORDING!
This reminds me of the Lego Batman movie
So a 10?
That’s the most dramatically appropriate number, so yeah.
They were in a texting relationship for a while, at least until they had a semi-public couple fight. Public, in that every one knew that they were fighting over text with one another.
Yep a 10. After she loses her virginity. Otherwise just a 4. Someone posted that before.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/corrupt/
Danny and Joe have the best comedy dynamic I swear
What is Joyce talking about? When did Joyce hurt Joe? Is she talking about having Mike hit Joe during their date? Or is she referring to something else?
Have I missed something? Or, does this refer to something we have not yet been made privy to?
It’s probably in reference to the Mike-punching-date thing.
Joyce clocked him one during that whole thing, I think. But knowing me, I’m probably wrong.
Joyce also joined in on the punching at the end, if I recall correctly.
She’s definitely talking about having Mike hit him.
Well she did punch him as well but I’m guessing it was probably the whole date itself especially the way she talked about getting his parents back together
She punched him in the face. Joe was quite vocal about it.
Okay, so, what I’m taking away from all this is that Joe genuinely likes Joyce, maybe even cares for her, but he was hurt and angry by her behavior on their date. Not that Joe doesn’t share the blame. Just that hitting other people is not cool unless you’re defending yourself or a UFC fighter.
I really like this idea. I can’t the the one note nature of Joe seriously and he kind of amuses me in the same what an asshole way The Todd used to on Scrubs. But this gives him some emotional depth. He’s so entrenched in his own concepts of masculinity that he can’t talk honestly with a girl he likes, an runs when placed in a situation where his feelings might come out. He’s still a jerk, but this would give him an emotional core that would male me root for him.
I think as for the date he still saw her just like he saw other women, but with the texts and everything, he might’ve come to like her. So maybe he did become hurt in some way, if he remembered.
Or he could’ve just come to like her without much hurt, and is now running away because she’s not angry but seems hurt herself, because of him and the list. Judging women he doesn’t know and getting hit by their anger just confused him, but seeing someone he knows and had deep-ish text conversations with, seriously reading out his list and not flare up on it might’ve really scared him. Maybe he runs away from his own feelings, but I think he runs away because of the questioning hurt I imagine to be in Joyce’s voice. Joe has probably protected himself up till now from the more sad spectrums of emotions in women, I believe.
Eh, I’m reading ‘hurt’ in a more emotional sense.
As am I.
It seems dazzlingly clear to me that Joe actually *likes* Joyce…
*LIKE*, likes, her.
And he doesn’t know how to process that because underneath it all he’s an immature horn-dog… and Joyce does things to him… she touches him in a way no-one has before.
(Now, come on, don’t get dirty!)
The sort of started dating and genuinely liked each other, and it kind of dissolved because of… exactly this. Joe’s entire life is based around being facetious (the list is clearly not meant as entirely serious, nor is pretty much anything he willingly engages with) and Joyce’s emotional range only goes from “sincere” to “puppy dog eyes, and also sincere”.
The fact that she’s looking over his bullshit list and not responding with half-serious disgust or disingenuous scandalized posturing, but sincerely worried that it meant he took their breakup (and the punching) harder than she’d thought, is sort of the three-panel summary of their entire interaction in the comic so far.
They were not dating. They went out once and it ended badly. There was no breakup because they were never together. And I disagree about the list not being meant as serious considering the amount of time Joe insists on pushing it at people and how much he’s showing about it bein
Also, it didn’t end badly because Joe was trying to score (though he was). It ended badly because Joyce hired Mike as a chaperone, and Mike punched him repeatedly (and Joyce joined in).
To add to the also, they didn’t “genuinely like each other”- they were both pretty much after almost anyone of the opposite sex. For different things, sure, but still.
Not being an expert in non-verbal communication I’m going to guess the last panel means something fairly important
she *can* bother him, and he is running from his feelings (and her question)
Well considering that he’s breaking the fourth wall to get away from the feelings, I’m inclined to agree with you.
Huh. Wonder why they’ve been texting one another, if they don’t think much of one another?
I think they think a lot of each other, but have a hard time expressing that, because on the surface they’re both the kind of people that the other is “supposed” to hate.
Yeah I don’t think the situation is that simple. Joe wouldn’t be running away and Joyce wouldn’t be pressing to find out her ranking before if it was.
I wonder if Joyce is that one girl for Joe, the one girl you probably won’t ever be with but for whatever reason becomes the one you measure every other girl against
The one you just can’t lie to, you can’t emotionally close up against, the one you remember for the rest of your life and think what if…
She’s definitely the only girl on campus he’s developed an actual emotional connection with despite his best efforts not to.
Which means she took his emotionaly virginity, if theres such a thing, and he’ll never forget her
Some of this is really starting to hit home
Well i have heard the phrase of having an emotional affair so maybe?
or maybe they were just friends?
idk like it might feel like emotional virginity but that’s only because our society makes it really hard for men to make female friends, or deal with their emotions in a healthy way
i feel like this strip is just as powerful if you view it through a platonic lens as a romantic lens
Honestly I hope it’s just platonic. Mostly because it’s kind of a terrible time for both of them.
i really hope it’s just platonic right now.
there’s just – too much drama right now for it to be anything but platonic. maybe later it could turn into something romantic, but…like….
idk none of this reads as romantic to me. emotional, sure, but not romantic. they sure do have an emotional connection there tho
Yeah, emotional, grounds for growth.
Not romantic at all. Not rn at least.
*high five* SHARED INTERPRETATION!!!!
My read on this is that Joyce is actually genuinely regretful here. She’s come to see him as a better person lately, with the texting, to the point she was disappointed he didn’t want to talk to her in person. And even though her opinion of him has been (quite rightly) damaged by this incident, she’s realizing that as a result of the mindset she entered college with, she cut herself off from a friendship/relationship that could have been really meaningful to her.
Maybe I’m way off base here, but she’s not ANGRY in that second-last panel, she’s emphasizing “was”, and she’s phrasing it in a way that foregrounds her own culpability rather than his action. It’s an interesting situation, either way.
I really really hope that’s not it. Joe was frigging awful to Joyce early on. And yes, she was awful to him once the date started. Joyce shouldn’t regret not speaking to someone who had no interest in accepting a no gracefully. He’d only accept it after copious whining and trying to change her mind.
Of course she is. She’s Joyce. She’s no longer righteously angry at him, so she’s remorseful and blames herself.
Which is bullshit. That friendship wasn’t going anywhere anyway. She wasn’t going to sleep with him and that wouldn’t have led to any real emotional connection anyway (for him, at least). Short of that and without some kind of really extreme response (like the punching), he would either have just kept trying or written her off. Much like he’s acted with Sarah.
Even after their texting connection, he cuts her off in person. That’s on him. He can’t handle the friendship/emotional connection that had started to grow. He still can’t now.
The date was awful. Joyce’s behavior during it was horrible. But that didn’t cut her off from anything because there was never a chance of it being anything. Even if she’d been looking for a more conventional boyfriend, he wasn’t looking for anything beyond a naive virgin to fuck.
All that said, I am kind of afraid they will eventually get together and likely Joe’s growth in that arc isn’t going to work for me.
In fairness, it’s possible that the rating of zero (MINUS!) is a result of Joe respecting her boundaries. She’s not really interested in a sexual relationship and likely won’t be for some time, and since she’s gone through basically an entire Abbot and Costello movie to get that to sink in he’s respecting it and listing her as “not an option” on the list.
It’s… I don’t want to say “sweet” because there’s really no context in which the list isn’t incredibly rude to everyone on it, but if you’re looking for hints as to where Joe’s personal growth arc is going that kind of seems like a good one. He’s essentially discovering that Joyce is a friend, as in a woman that he enjoys interacting without any element of sexual interest, and that’s the chip in the facade that’s probably going to drive him to re-evaluate more than the actual drama-whatever of the list being published.
The difference between Joe and the rest of the cast, though, is that he’s genre savvy for the actual genre of the story he’s in. He actually sees the character development coming and is like “damn it, no! Give me one more arc of fist-bumping and meaningless hookups! I don’t wanna grow up! PADME! NOOOOOOOO!” Then he clenches his fists and all the windows shatter and he punches through the fourth wall and wanders off to the nearest singles bar.
(Honestly, I kind of like Joe, in the same sense as Mike. Lovable Jerk who knows damned well he’s a jerk and that he’ll have to change because he’s in an after-school special type thing, but doesn’t wanna, is kind of… endearing, for some reason.)
I really don’t think that’s it. He changed her rating when she was annoying him by texting on her way back home. I don’t think this is about her boundaries – especially since the blurb about her is still encouraging guys to ‘hit that’.
Do we actually know when he changed her rating?
The only comment I remember is when he told Raidah “She’s practically excised from my “Do” list.” Makes sense it would have been right after the date, when he was justifiably pissed off at her.
I also think the blurb isn’t changed and is intended as a note to himself to “hit that”, rather than encouragement for anyone else.
But his blurbs are NOT just written for himself! He tries to get every person he meets to look at this feed. Joe definitely wrote that “memo to self” with full knowledge that it would encourage readers to hit that.
Yeah, we saw it on Patreon. And the blurb was written before the date, as per Word of Willis on Patreon.
“In fairness, it’s possible that the rating of zero (MINUS!) is a result of Joe respecting her boundaries.”
Considering how Joe’s “respect of boundaries” has been shown to be close to non-existent in the past, I would absolutely not bet on this.
I mean, the “practically” part basically just means that if by some “miracle” (in Joe’s eyes) Joyce would throw herself at him, he’d still accept that.
And said “miracle”? Well, Joe has already explained what that would be, when he told Joyce: “You? Hell no? A drunker version of you, maybe.”
That’s actually probably precisely why they started texting: They didn’t care at all about each other at first, which means no consequence conversation. Wanna get something off your chest, but don’t want to actually care about their opinion about you or the situation? Just talk to someone you don’t like; maybe someone whose entire personality and worldview you’re pretty sure you figured out in the first 5 seconds of meeting them.
Unfortunately for both of them, when you start talking to people you get to know them, and then you start caring, which screws up the whole “no consequences” thing.
Except on Facebook.
They do, Joe’s just been on the impression that he’s supposed to act as too big to care about her in public because he fears being friends with a woman would be a slam against his masculinity.
A wise choice in a unwise situation
Even wolves approve of this reaction.
Oh no. Emotions, Joe’s kryptonite.
Fucking fall in a hole as you run from your feelings, Joe.
Also, are Joyce’s eyes more vivid than usual or is her shirt just tricking my eyes into thinking they are?
It’s her steady diet of Melange.
The Sleeper has awakened.
It’s kinda fun. All in all, Joyce isn’t event looking at him with disdain. She’s not angry. Too much agappe.
“Emotions, Joe’s kryptonite.”
In the end, like every incarnation of toxic masculinity, Joe is a coward.
Yup. Anger, Joe can deal with, he’ll just make a comment about periods and move on. Actual human connection? He crumbles.
You can probably heap a load of blame on Joes parents divorce and Joes dads actions I’m guessing
I really want to know what his relationship with his mother is/was like. It’s interesting that there was no hint of her being at the family weekend, and it makes me wonder if his dad ended up with custody for whatever reason. The idea that a relationship breaking down ended up with his mother leaving would definitely hit hard and could so easily lead to this sort of behaviour.
Can anybody link me to the arc where Joe asked Joyce on a date? I can’t remember this at all.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/category/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/
It was alllll the way back in book one
She was a ten or a ten plus. He doesn’t want to admit that Joyce of all people was at the top.
She was a 4 as a virgin and would become a 10 after he put a dent in it.
…. why do I ship them again…
Because they could be so good together. They’d be positive influences on each other.
When has Joe been a positive influence on anyone?
When he actually acts like himself instead of his coping methods.
He could have been lying to Danny and himself, if liking Joyce wasn’t toxic-manly enough for him.
I always read her as a Girl Next Door, albeit a pretty one. Maybe he stupidly requires himself to prefer actively sexual model-types, or not to value whatever sensitive kind women, or whatever else makes her special to him.
I think she was only a 4 for her naive preachiness and the fact that she totally doesn’t want to bang him. To Joe, on looks alone, she would’ve been a 10.
Joe, on looks alone, would be very attractive to Joyce, too, but then his whole persona and everything he does get in he way, and also Joyce doesn’t rate people.
Also wonder if this is a situation like Rocket from Guardians 2 in which Joe is an asshole all the time because he can’t even Fanthom the thought of someone even caring about a guy like him
Hmm, in a romantic sense maybe, in a way it’s a defense mechanism where he’s not try to push possible love interest away but instead is giving people and excuse to intimately involved with him unless it’s for sex and sex only. Then there’s question of why and there are a lot of awnsers there, maybe he’s afraid of commitment or maybe he’s afraid of getting involved in a relationship where he opens himself completely only to get hurt or he’s afraid of ending up in the same type of loveless marriage his parents did.
Either way who knows it’s a good theory.
His parents are divorced and his father is presumably a womanizer (interaction with Amber’s mother), this is probably a combination of learned behavior and a defense mechanism. There’s not really any information regarding the divorce beyond ‘they fought a lot.’ Father’s womanizing behavior might’ve predated the divorce and been a contributing factor. Alternatively, he might’ve dove back into the dating pool fairly quickly post-divorce, and seemed to handle it better than Joe’s mom from an immature outside perspective. No kid wants to end up miserable. If his mother wasn’t handling the divorce particularly well, it might’ve given Joe the lesson that love only ends in heartbreak and that he’s better off playing the field.
I think it would be fascinating some day to have him encounter someone who is actually aromantic.
….. so, Sarah?
Sarah’s aromatic, right? Or is that just “I’m focused on my studies right now”.
*aromantic. I won’t speculate on how aromatic she is.
An “Armor-Piercing Question” if I ever heard one.
Coupled with those big blue eyes of hers, he’s completely defenseless.
“Dorothy’s only a SEVEN?” Never change, Joyce.
I was wondering if anyone else noticed that. Joyce definitely wants that and doesn’t get why that’s not universal.
Dotty ain’t exactly a kinsey zero, either…
…and now I am SERIOUSLY shipping it as a poly angle. Fuck.
Nah, she’s viewing it from a utilitarian angle. When Danny quietly comes out to her she considers herself a zero, and okay fine I’ll stop being a killjoy.
wait when did Danny come out to her?
When he was first trying to figure this out, he came to her for advice. She was surprised, but he said ‘for some things it’s still gotta be you’. She didn’t understand his freakout about being bisexual, then had some difficulty convincing him it’s a real thing.
Dorothy and Joyce would make a good couple. Even just from a queer-platonic standpoint. Hell, they kind already are dipping some major toes into having a queer-platonic relationship.
Considering that’s basically Joyce’s model for close female friends.
If Walky was there,
Walky: Really straight there Joyce. Just the absolute straightest. Also 100% correct Dorothy is way better than a seven!! She’s like a, a …a twenty to the…the power of a thousand…or something like that.
Spot on.
BWA HA HA HA
HAHA! (Nothing witty or any observation. I just really liked the fact that Joyce made Joe speechless without violence.)
*monty python voice* run awayyyyyyyyyy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FPELc1wEvk
running free running free
driving me insaaaane
shut it down shut it down
it’s about to explode
…I ship it? I think?
I ship it pretty hard. There’s a ton of potential for growth on both their ends. Dysfunction that learns to function is the best. But, if they just stayed friends and learned from one another totally platonically, that’d be cool too. Either way, I think they’re super important to each other’s growth.
honestly Joyce’s being upset at Dorothy’s only being a seven is totally legitimate, because Dorothy’s nice and smart and awesome and a seven is waaaaay too low for her, but I can’t help but read that as a shiptease with Joyce angry that somebody doesn’t acknowledge Dorothy’s objective coolness. I approve of this reaction. 😛
I’m imagining she got points off for being really wound up in career goals and politics. Admirable traits in a person, but not in a casual date, which seems to be the metric for Joe’s list.
Yeah, dudebros don’t want women that are too strong, driven, or opinionated because it hurts their poor fragile masculinity.
I was more thinking that those traits make it harder to casually hookup with her so she lost points. I mean, Joe was really into Roz and Sal and they’re definitely all of those things you mention.
Yeah, he’s looking for sex and Dorothy’s not a one-night stand kind of gal.
Well that and they already knew each other at high school
This ^ Either consciously or not, there’s probably a little bit of squick where Dorothy’s concerned for Joe. That’s his best friend’s girl (even though she’s not anymore) and it would probably feel super friendcestuous to him.
Except one of his earliest strips in comic is him actively putting Dorothy back on the list and rating her and implying he’s about to fuck her literally minutes after she broke up with Danny. And doing that to Danny’s face.
Seven is where Joe made up the number. He didn’t mention being ambitious, but did mention being “kinda bookish”, I presume as a fault.
Intelligence is probably not very high on the list of desirable qualities for someone that would put a list like this to paper and actually create a subscribable RSS feed for it.
…and then be surprised that it got ‘leaked’
it is much like leslie knope’s love for ann perkins, except ann perkins is the one running for office in a weird shift of au events
He was going to “upgrade her from a four to a ten” http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/corrupt/
Holy hell did I forget how creepy Joe can be. Thankfully that story line ended with him getting punched in the face repeatedly.
Ewww.
Yeah, like, I fully realize Assault Is Wrong but goddamn if Joe didn’t deserve a punch in the face in that storyline.
You fully realize nothing. That’s the exact opposite of fully realizing something.
Okay, let me elaborate then: in the vast majority of situations assault is wrong; however, when it’s used as a deterrant for attempting to coerce women into sex, I’m not that mad.
Please listen to yourself.
“I don’t like that guy and how he acts. Good thing he got physically assaulted for it!”
You want to be treated like that? We obviously disagree on application of force. Should I hope you get punched in the face? Do you hope I will?
Dude, don’t.
At this point, I’ve accepted that we don’t agree on lots of things and try to avoid you, but I can’t imagine you would be on the side of “Joe deserved to be physically assaulted” outside of a slapstick format.
I’m not, I’ve condemned that action thoroughly and repeatedly.
I’m asking you to stop intentionally trying to pick fights based on uncharitable reads of clear hyperbole that is not likely reflected in real-life attitudes to violence.
As well as erasing the violence of non-physically violent actions such as the utter dehumanization that Joe has performed.
I’ll admit, I can be confrontational. Violence is a big no-no for me, and that is how I really feel I relate to Joe. I was after people saying Joe should be kicking Ryan’s butt too, because that’s not my view of Joe as a character.
I’ll TRY to not pick “fights”. I get it. It does not push discussion back towards the fun it once was, nor does it improve what is in it now, and it’s something I have power to stop.
But don’t think I don’t have a heavy dislike of your interpretation of Joe. I disagree vehemently.
So no promises.
That is more than fair. *appropriate gesture of support*
I like what you said about charity. People should be more charitable when reading stuff. Often people write and say stuff they don’t really mean, and would realize is actually pretty dumb if they had taken a second more to think about it. People should be more generous and charitable in general.
You were a four, Joyce, due to your virginity and lack of know-how re: sex. Joe wanted to ‘upgrade’ you with his dick because Joe is fucking disgusting, so why not echo corrective rape logic?
on consideration: joe is right to run
maybe not, y’know, brave or honest, but at least he has some shame
He also used the phrasing “I’m gonna FIX her (…) with my penis”, which is even closer to corrective rape logic.
YUP. Joe is just incredibly rape-y leading up to that date, even while protesting he’s not going to rape her.
In yesterday’s comments we were talking about PUA. This is very PUA logic. Like, thinking the woman just needs some “convincing”.
Which is why Joe sucks super hard at consent.
Yup, all of this. And that corrective rape logic in that comic is one of my biggest problems with him because it reveals how basically the only reason he hasn’t raped anyone yet is luck.
He said that rape is not “how he gets his jollies”, with a very disgusted face, to Sarah. On the same comic page, where he says “I’m not going to break her” (Sarah’s wording) “I’m going to FIX her.” Sarah: “With your penis.” Joe: “With my penis.” fyi
I mean, some people will admit to being rapists as long as you avoid that actual word.
No one has forgotten that Joe considers himself big on consent. We are saying his actions don’t line up as well as he thinks they do.
Exactly. I’m sure Joe wouldn’t actually fuck without consent, but he views lack of consent as a challenge. As a thing to overcome. And he may not be very picky about how he gets that consent.
Exactly.
He doesn’t consider himself to be That Kind Of Person, but neither do a lot of people who have done even worse things. Knowing rape is wrong doesn’t necessarily mean you have a great grasp on what rape IS, which is part of why advocation for consent education is so important (and is not limited even slightly to “telling people rape is bad”, like the knee-jerk detractors think it is).
Mm hmm, he knows that capital R “Rape” is wrong, but views that as stranger in the bushes jumping out or skeezy guy at the party slipping women roofies or someone going when the person is fighting back.
But he completely excises manipulation and coercion and views those as dandy tactics to get a “yes” the person wouldn’t otherwise agree to. It’s essentially a no means no understanding of consent and rape rather than a yes means yes understanding.
as long as you acquire consent first – by any means whatsoever – you’re golden! that’s totally how it works, right? right?
Yeah he says he’s not gonna rape her, but in the same strip he’s using corrective rape logic. He’s incredibly rape-y, even if he’s not crossed that line (which I don’t believe he has, but he’s dancing with the line and reaaaaalllly needs to stop before he crosses it – see, him using alcohol to get sex, talking about ‘upgrading’ and ‘fixing’ women with his dick, not backing off until he’s assaulted or screamed at, etc.)
Joe can really just go fuck himself now, thanks.
Exit stage left!!
Joyce is such a sweetheart. “Before I hurt you”, not “before you messed up”. Thinking of others, even when she’s upset.
Was Joe the one to mess up with Joyce? She brought a guy along to punch him on their date.
Yea but Joe’s intentions for that date where let us say… less than noble. She needed to be “broken in” to “upgrade he from a four to ten”
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/corrupt/
The whole repeat punching to the face might have more farcical than typical for Dumbing of Age. But it was somewhat deserved considering his intentions
Wait, what do you think his intentions were?
The way I read it, he was hoping for a hookup, thought that once she lost her virginity she might loosen up and relax, and lose those churchy traits that (Joe thought) were keeping her from being a 10.
He phrased it in probably the douchiest way possible, but I don’t see anything inherently scummy about hoping for a hookup after a date. He obviously wasn’t about to force her to do anything, Joe doesn’t roll like that.
Joyce makes it clear early on she is not okay with premarital sex. Joe intends to do whatever he can to turn that no into a yes. That is incredibly skeevy and not okay.
It’s incredibly scummy to hope for a hookup when your date has made it super clear they’re not into casual sex. You don’t have to be a literal rapist to be a bad person.
This! It is possible to be awful LONG before your behavior becomes an actual crime.
All that said, bringing Mike along to punch him was also awful.
I would have “noped” my way out of the date right there. Even if my intentions were a lot purer than Joe’s were.
Yeah, but the thing is, one is realistically awful while the other is cartoon-shenanigans awful. One happens every day while the other, though I doubt it’s never happened, at least happens very very very rarely.
I’m not defending Mike’s beating Joe up or Joyce joining in, but I do wanna point out that she was honestly horrified the first several times Mike punched Joe. She wanted a chaperone, and in her mind Mike was there to protect them BOTH from Bad Thoughts.
It evolved into “Mike punches Joe for looking at a waitress’s breasts and Joyce gloweringly approves”, but that wasn’t the intent. She didn’t hire Mike to assault Joe. She hired him to keep her from going too far.
“all he wants is carte blanche to punch anyone who acts inappropriately. In the face.”
“ANYONE”. Not just Joe! And I don’t think she thought he meant it at first.
He was rather explicit about his intentions. He wanted to “fix her with his penis”. And he was willing to do everything in his power to end run around her stated boundaries and limits that he could to get there, trying to get rid of the chaperone before he even started punching him and trying to circle every conversation back to sex.
Like, I’m not minimizing how badly Joyce behaved in that date, because holy crap was she absolutely horrible, but what he should have done is bailed immediately rather than continuously seeing if he could sabotage her enough to isolate and “seduce” her.
It’s also interesting that we see a hint of his attitude about the list even in that conversation. He’s relying on conventional norms to keep Sarah from telling Joyce about his intentions, in much the same way he expects no one he gives access to his list to pass it on.
There’s more than enough room for BOTH of them to have messed up horribly. This is Dumbing of Age, after all.
Aaand now the benny hill theme is stuck in my head, Thank you, Willis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaP-uRfBBdY
Isn’t it just too bad Joe? You can run away from people chasing you but you can’t run away from responsibility and feelings.
Watch him try his best!
A 4 to potential 10 though Joe? Though the way he’s running I wonder (hope) he was just being douchey and always saw the 10.
it’s half possible she’s 0- actually because he kinda opened up to her (the SMS an’ all) and can’t imagine doing that to someone he “humanized” anymore.
Wrong. Dorothy is on the list and they grew up together.
(I mean I’m dating myself to reveal that I consider meeting at 15 to count, but yeah.)
He definitely knew Dorothy as a human being and still couldn’t wait to rate her, having previously only resisted out of Bro Code.
“Tactical Retreat”
How did Joe’s list leak in the first place? Has that been revealed yet? I think I might’ve missed some strips recently due to life getting in the way.
Not yet
He gave a couple of people access at various points and I’m guessing one of them leaked it, but it hasn’t been said who specifically.
It’d be hilarious if it was Danny..
Danny’s doing a good job of faking surprise if it was.
My money’s on Raidah – as the last disgusted woman we saw being given the password.
she bothered him SO MUCH that he ran right out of the panel and into the website
Is he in the comment section?
Ooh, that would go very poorly for him.
I just had a mental picture of him running though the background of todays QC page.
Your alt-text may say “Yakety Sax”, Willis.
But what popped in my head in that last panel is the sound Dr Zoidberg makes whenever he flees. “Woop woop woop woop woop”
And that is what shall remain.
YESSSS
Seems Joyce found a gap in Joe’s sleazy armor?
Billie, a six? Damn, that’s harsh.
Then again, I only know her from a relatively simple drawing style. I don’t know what she’d look like in real life.
Still. Harsh.
According to him, she’s a 6 but her boobs are a 10.
Ew.
It was probably the desperation that cost her points.
More likely the chubby. ‘Desperate for validation’ translates to ‘likely to put out’ for PUA types (it’s the whole point of negging).
I mean it’s probably bit of both here.
Welp, Joe’s doing a runner. Should somebody go after him or….?
i say let him run
he knows where they are
And Joyce scores a direct hit, and with the most devastating weapon: compassion. Before *she* hurt *him.*
Anger he understands, but this, he’s defenseless.
Joe does best (or worst) with direct questions, Danny beats around the bush but Joyce here, or via text, comes straight out with the questions she wants answered
And Joe has to run because to answer the question is to admit he can be hurt.
HA ! Man he peace’d out fast, let alone in the most cartoonish way possible.
I’m still puzzled as to how the do list is accessible. Like how and or why is it on the internet at all? Shouldn’t it just be a Word file on his computer? I DON’T UNDERSTAND THIS STORY.
Joe posted it online with a password to protect it and then gave out the password as a guide for guys who couldn’t get laid, including an RSS feed and subscribers. This was established by Joe in the first storyline.
He actually seems to give it out to anyone he meets except the low-scoring girls, and guys he doesn’t like…he doesn’t seem to have given it to Walky, but he did offer it to Raidah, frex.
Also to Danny. He doesn’t tell low scoring girls their scores, though, you’re right.
Danny litterally wrote the page code, of course he has access.
He’s not a subscriber though, and Joe keeps telling him unsolicited.
hmmm
He had Danny build him a private website or something in Jr High, per a few comics ago.
Well, then he wouldn’t be able to show it off to others (who may or may not want to see it… probably more the “not” side), view it on his phone, etc. And there’s an RSS feed, so anyone subscribed to said feed (which presumably required a password to access) would instantly see whenever he updated it. Despite Joe’s desire for security of “the list”, he also clearly feeds his own ego by sharing it with those he deems “worthy” and has offered the password to others (both male and female) on multiple occasions, without thinking that oh hey, they might share the password with someone else. Probably was thinking more with the “lower horn” and not very logically then.
That covers the why… as to the how, well Danny helped him create it back in junior high. Danny was probably a novice programmer back then and created a simple webapp with basic features like viewing the list and adding/editing/deleting entries. There’s probably just one viewing password he gave to everyone, so he can’t ban accounts if one person gets their revenge by sharing the password. Heck, the “admin” password may even be the same one! Even if that were not the case, it’s probably pretty easy to break in — as Danny himself said a couple strips ago, it’s definitely not up to modern security standards (I think the term “paper bag” was used?)
Sigh, I put way too much thought into the implementation of this horrible list…
Something that tends to bug me is when I read how Danny created a website for him back in highschool, I’m picturing him doing it back in the late 90’s. I’m not even sure if RSS existed back then. Granted, a simple web search could tell me, but eh.
If DoA is set “now”, most of the main characters wouldn’t have been born until 1998. (‘Adults’ like Leslie and John Brown would be late 80s or very early 90s, the main cast’s parents would probably be early to mid 70s.)
This comic makes me feel old.
Okay, late 60s to early 70s.
My point is middle school for the DoA freshman class will always be “5 to 7 years ago”. 2010 to 2012 as of today. RSS was a thing for years before that; I remember hearing about it when Digg and Del.icio.us were popular.
Yup, and that’s the big thing with PUA culture. It’s not about actually getting laid. As a means of getting laid, it’s actually one of the worst methods possible (like just going on dates and not being an asshole has way more “success”).
What it’s about is homosocial performance. It’s about performing “I’m such a big alpha dog that I can shit-talk a woman to her face and still brag about getting laid and thus fulfilling the requirements to be seen as a “man” and getting the approval for that from other men.
Joe just getting laid isn’t the point. Having an imaginary audience of his male peers on his RSS feed “cheer” his actions, is. And we see that with a lot of his interactions with Danny. He’s constantly trying to push Danny into fulfilling the role of man who congratulates him for getting laid after he does so or says he’s done so and gets angry at him for not.
Because in his head, none of the shitty sex he’s getting (shitty because he doesn’t seem to give all that much care to the pleasure of his partners or in listening to their needs and wants) matters unless there’s a man to tell him he’s a better more manly man for getting it.
The ironic thing about this that I only just remembered now is that, when you look at Joe when he’s not single-mindedly focusing on sex, he’s not quite so devoted to the concept of masculinity. As an example, during that whole ‘Walky needs to get a pair of shoes’ debacle, when Walky was making a big deal out of how ‘only girls own multiple pairs of shoes’, Joe took him to task for falling prey to shitty cartoonish stereotypes.
I think there’s more to Joe than to your standard PUA. His insecurities seem to be rooted deeper than simple misogyny and fragile ego—it almost seems more like a technique for masking his emotions. Joe is, ironically, both free of toxic masculinity (as seen when talking to Walky) and the poster child (totally incapable of really opening up to anyone about his feelings).
He’s still an ass, of course.
He had it on an RSS feed. Basically, it was a way to have the document online for people to subscribe to and see the changes immediately as he updated it. He was always insufferably open about the fact he had it and would offer access to it to people or invite them to subscribe. Because he probably assumed so many guys on campus were like him and wanted to see who they should go for. Someone who had access could easily post what he had written all over the internet or send it to people throughout the dorm.
Also, really Joe? Billie’s a six because she has a bit more weight and curves? You’d better pray Ruth doesn’t see that list, because she has a lot of pent up anger and frustration and you are, as of about fifteen minutes ago, the single most acceptable target on campus. Though only because insert first name Ryan insert last name is currently either dead, missing, or in the hospital. Ruth could strangle you with your own spine and Clark Wing would cheer her like a hero. You’d best watch your step.
Well, OF COURSE Joe is fatshaming. The entire principe of the list is not only misogynistic and instrumentalizing, it’s also following the lookist principle of hierarchizing people’s appearance.
And since our idea of “beauty”, in the dominant culture, is tied to sexism, cissexism, transphobia, enbyphobia, racism, fatshaming, ableism, etc, the ranking is bound to reflect all of those and more. Even if there wasn’t any comment about “chubby” girls, even if Joe was somehow a feminist and body positive person (both being in complete contradiction with the very principle of the list, once again), even if all of the women fully consented to be ranked, etc, this list would be inherently oppressive.
You’re right it’s just…ah but fat shaming just really pisses me off, especially when it’s directed at someone who really isn’t that fat. *sigh* I swear it would only have been worse if it said “exotic mixed Asian” or some bullshit like that. Fucking lists.
Damn it all.
Noooooo, fat shaming is definitely just as bad if not worse when it targets actually-fat people.
There is no positive with fat shaming, there is no group of people who deserves that crap.
(And I know you weren’t actually saying fat people deserve it, but you were saying thin people deserve it “even less”, so the implication is still there, probably unconsciously.)
Shit. Yeah it was unconscious. I in no way meant that.
…
Also I would like to state for the record that the BMI is bullshit and would like to add that there are huge environmental factors that go into increased weight and that some people just are larger or smaller while still being perfectly healthy.
<3
Calling someone “chubby” isn’t exactly fatshaming, at least in my book.
Calling someone chubby is not fatshaming imo. Calling someone chubby is probably one of the nicer ways to describe someone who is, well… chubby.
It’s not the word, and also “but Joe could be ruder while calling Billie fat, because we’ve got lots of nasty words” isn’t a great defense of his behavior. Just says our society is kinda fucked up.
What’s fat shaming is marking her down for it, I think, and also just calling her fat on a list he shared publicly.
Calling someone chubby or fat isn’t inherently fatshaming, calling them chubby or fat as a negative descriptor is fatshaming. So if the word ‘chubby’ is used neutrally or positively, it’s not, if you’re using it as an insult or detractor, it definitely is! And Joe seems to be doing the latter.
Trigger Warning: Transphobia
All of this!
Yup, it’s enshrining normalized beauty standards as some “objective” measure, discounting the wide tapestry that people actually have in developing sexual attraction and creating a resource to shame people who dare have non-mainstream “tastes”.
Hell, it’s something I see a lot in PUA culture and that toxic masculinity. Guys pressuring each other to go after those who fulfill a normalized beauty standard intentionally sold to them and hide any attraction for anyone outside it lest you get mocked by your peers for going after a “4” or the like.
And it’s downright dangerous, because guys get angry and violent about having feelings for someone they know their friends will mock them for having feelings for.
Like, a lot of fat women get intense sexual harassment because some guy got a boner at their appearance and decided the only way to cope with it was to rip her apart for daring to “do that to him”.
And lots of trans women are straight up murdered because of this shit, because we “tricked” them into being sexually attracted to a “man” who all of their toxic masculinity friends will rip them apart for being interested in, because gayness is synonymous with being a woman in their universe.
And because if we’re straight, our long-term partners can turn on us at any time if he feels like his peers will mock him for “dating a man”.
Anyone want to take bets on just how phenomenally depressing Ruth’s entry on this list is?
oh god.
she either hits the “so terrifying she’s hot” mark or the “yes ma’am” mark
Or she didn’t even make the list.
that too!!
honestly that is the best of most worlds
i bet all the IU women who did make it on the list huddle protectively around the women who did not
It probably says: deceptively strong, red hair, a bit on the tall side, freckles, glasses, slightly thinner than expected, expressive sad eyes behind said glasses. Eight. Would be nine but she’s a Leafs fan. Leave alone. Both scary and probably hurt. Don’t want to get involved in that mess.
…
If you excuse me, I need to vomit and take a shower, a feel ill having tried putting myself into Joe’s headspace.
That’s a lot more charitable than his actual description probably is.
Yeah, I don’t get that either. I’m leaving out my personal taste in wife (who is exactly my type, built like an Amber, and way fewer issues) but:
Does Joe know Billie was head cheerleader in HS?
In DofA, everyone is still pretty young, and doesn’t have issues with aging a bit*. Even in that context, Billie was a head cheerleader a short time ago. She has a good amount of that strength and flexibility remaining. (We readers have seen it.)
On its own merits**, give what the list purports to rate, wouldn’t these qualities up her rating?
(*I’m older than Willis.)
(**Don’t rate women, Joe.)
Wow, sure sounds like Joe put every girl at IU on the list. He may be a pig, but he’s an inclusive pig.
Not defending his list. Scoring people is stupid and demeaning.
Does it count as inclusive if he’s rating some of them as 3s
Like, having everyone on his do list isn’t the same thing in this case as being open to all of them sexually.
that is…so much work
how many women are at IU
(on a side note, for morbid curiosity reasons, where is Leslie on this list)
‘Kinda dykey. Probably take a lot of work, but probably open to a threesome once gotten through. Seven.’
why did i want to know
I probably should have made it clear that I’m speculating, not quoting anything canon…
lmao no i mean that is. a very legitimate headcanon
it’s just. why did i want to know
Indeed. I kind of felt like I needed a shower after pondering down that path.
Joe has been shown to be pretty cool with homosexuality, and he knows Leslie is a lesbian. I figure he’d respect that and never try (and pull back quickly in an AU where he didn’t know.)
(then immediately ruin it by saying girl-on-girl is hot and asking for video to watch since he can’t play)
idk asking for video is still…asking to participate, even only as an observer
Yeah, it’s turning our intimacy with other women into something that’s all about the man and his orgasm. Same problem I had with the framing of Inara’s date with the Councilor in Firefly, where it was all about how much the men wanted to masturbate to it.
idk like how in that – privately, Inara and the Councilor were just having fun. the relationship clearly was a joyous if temporary thing
but joss whedon is just. super gross. so probably speaks more to morena baccarin and her co-actor whose name i don’t know
It’s not their behavior!
Remember how the camera lingers really hard on everyone else’s’ REACTIONS to it? How they watch Inara all goggle-eyed? Even Kaylee is getting off on it, which I will snatch up as proof that she’s not straight and run away with to a better universe, but the framing of that whole scene was definitely focused on the other characters being leeeing voyeurs.
honestly its been so long since i watched firefly that i really dont remember, but i can easily believe it
i am holding a grudge about willow/tara being an abusive relationship, Such A Grudge
I did read that scene as the men being gross and invasive and disrupting what should have been a private affair (no pun intended), but I read the FRAMING as being more sympathetic to Inara and less flattering to the men. Is there something I was missing there?
Yes, they’re meant to be gross, but it’s in a ha-ha, “identify with these gross men” way. We’re still expected to share Mal’s and Jayne’s reaction to Inara and the counselor. Whedon will happily parody objectification of women, but, uh, he still does it. That’s his problem. Well, one of his problems. He’s kind of garbage.
Joe has also been shown to consider women saying they don’t want sex with him to be a personal challenge to coerce them into sex with him anyway.
this feels like the opposite of a gone girl moment,
in which the girl is present and refuses to leave
and also refuses to put up with the guy’s bullshit, and refuses to not be hurt by it, and is super freakin’ honest about it
but then joyce is “some nice midwestern girl” i guess
sucks to be you amy dunne
I miss Benny Hill. Sure, his show was sexist as hell, but the man could do a hell of a silly slapstick routine.
(I grew up watching his show. Weird, eh.)
To quote Gene Simmons, when asked about if KISS was sexist-?
(Deliberately misunderstands question) “What’s wrong with being sexy?”
Benny Hill knew the difference – joie de vivre means you get forgiven, a lot.
Either my KISS knowledge is limited… (quite possibly!)
Or you’ve Head-cannoned Spinal Tap into somewhere a lot darker!
🙂
Honestly, I love that Joyce is able to crack through Joe’s “armor of toxic masculinity” like this.
On that note, how dare you give Billie a 6
There’s something really poignant about Joyce in panel 3. It’s like she’s almost sad.
theory: ryan released joe’s do list to distract people from himself
It would be hard to do that when your in a coma.
see i don’t know that he’s in a coma, that’s information that i am not in the possession of
Damn it all.
No, he would have done it before he came to find and assault Joyce.
I think it might be interesting if that source of the leak came out and we saw Joe’s reaction to it. I suspect that he would be horrified to know the manner of people with whom he’d been associating. All objective realities aside, Joe was always very firm on his self-deceit that he respects women on a certain level; Ryan and his behaviour would repel him and it might be another slap in the face that forces him to examine just how he’s been treating people and what it says about him.
mostly this headcanon is based in the idea that Ryan heard Joe talk about his buffness as a reason Walky couldn’t attack him, and would therefore want to isolate him from his friendgroup both as a threat and as what he might consider a kindred spirit
but mostly, yeah, make joe come to his senses and figure out who he wants to be
Also what about Billie makes her “desperate” in Joe’s opinion? Is it just her being “chubby”? Being not a size zero must automatically make her desperate?
Her demeanor, wanting to sleep with Danny so probably just a vibe she was giving off
Either that, or the fact he first saw her after she was willing to bang Danny back like…years ago at this point. When she was initially trying to interview Danny about Amazigirl before she and Ruth got together. That was a long time ago. But I think it was the fact that she nearly had sex with Danny because Joe didn’t have a very high opinion of Danny’s ability to attract girls.
It wasn’t years ago. More like a few months, if even that. Remember, time in the comic progresses at a significantly slower pace than it does for the readers.
That aside, I think you’re right that he considers her desperate for turning to Danny for sex when she could’ve gone to him.
I believe they meant years ago IRL.
I meant in real time not comic time but, yeah it was…eight or nine weeks ago for the characters.
I would assume either throwing herself at Danny, or this attempt to get his attention.
She kinda was a bit desperate at the time, but that kinda makes it worse to put in the description he’s sharing with other people. Just fucking telling anyone willing to listen that she’s emotionally vulnerable. WTF Joe
that’s PUA culture for you! emotional vulnerability exists to be exploited, and if it isn’t there, you damn well CREATE it by making the girl insecure and confused. It’s an actual textbook for how to create yourself an abusive relatinoship. It’s… look, I often find this word silly, but it’s actually evil.
This, all of this. And yeah, it’s what’s so fucked about PUA culture is that exploitation of every social nicety, custom, and act of good faith on the part of your “target”.
And those who survive that shit frequently end up learning to be less trusting, be more prickly, be willing to jump on the first red flag just to try and prevent it happening again.
It’s a parasitical worldview that makes everything a bit worse for it existing, which is why popular “hunting grounds” for douchebags tend to get largely abandoned by women, which is the real purpose. PUA is usually just a sexualized version of “these women do not belong in ‘our’ space”.
Let’s first consider this as his base unupdated rating of Billie, specifically “…she’s really a six, but her boobs are like a ten.” To this we can add what he knows about her from Danny describing the events of that day and what he’d have learned from listening to hall gossip and further interacting with her (cf Fart Captor’s post above). For a good example he’d likely have heard about consider her first day interaction with Tony. Outside Joyce, who for reasons hasn’t been updated, I feel we can expect he updates every aspect of these with new info as he has it… well, except for names, which he doesn’t include at all.
He could have just decided to stick her wear she ‘really’ belongs, especially if the takeaway from Amber’s look was ‘I shouldn’t artificially inflate my numbers’. He was worried about that with Roz.
Given that all his descriptions seem based on initial impressions, it’d be this:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/01-if-the-shoes-split/billingsworth/
That she basically approached him and flirted with him. That’s what makes her “desperate”. That she approached him for casual sex instead of letting him “hunt her”.
And the sick part is that’s not uncommon among these types of guys. A lot of them have a lot of baggage about “proper roles” for genders and so a woman who actually seeks out casual sex is treated awfully and as a desperate (slur for a sexual woman), even though they expect all of their targets to be down for casual sex once they “seduce”.
Except that the two examples of women we know he actually had sex with very likely sought out such sex with him. Or at least responded to his initial flirtation.
I think responded is okay for him, but not initiating. Or at least not initiating unless they are above a specific number threshold for him.
Am I right in reading Joyce here as much more sad than anything else?
Also, it’s still heartwarming to see Joyce’s sort-of hero worship for Dorothy still, it’s sweet to see how much she thinks of her friend, even when it’s in this sort of context.
Plus, it’s telling that it’s the person who has an actual emotional connection with him that terrifies Joe. Joyce, for all her differences, has similarities to him, enough that they can actually talk and for her to admit where she was wrong in the past.
I’d say so. Joyce is seeing right through him and probably thinking less about the numbers and more about why Joe would feel the need to assign them, and to put so much emphasis on them.
And maybe that’s Joe’s biggest thing with it. He’s so shitty at communication that he feels like this is his best way of doing it. We’ve already seen he’s a lot better communicating via text (at least with Joyce) so maybe his thought process was that doing so online via a list would be better?
I mean, he still did in a shitty way, but there’s some deep rooted shit there that will probably be addressed and mostly remedied via this arc.
Hopefully.
Nah, the I’d say the list is his way of avoiding all that.
It’s an explicit, public rejection of feelings, romance, and emotional entanglement, by enshrining how much time and effort he puts into thinking about sex, and women as sexual partners and nothing else.
I’m reading it more as Joyce seeing a conflict between the Joe that wrote that shit and the Joe that’s been a weird friend to her.
It’s the same person, and she’s hurt, but she’s exploring the wound a bit to see who Joe actually is, and if he’s as bad as The List makes him seem.
I would say so, I also said that Joyce looked more sad than angry on the last page too.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/chaperone/
consider: we could have had Ruth chaperoning this date instead of Mike. frick. i kind of almost wish that had happened, because that would have been hilarious
Especially as Ruth would likely have given him less of an excuse to feel aggrieved and would have absolutely ripped him apart for all of his attempted end-runs around consent and boundaries.
yup!!!!
and Joyce and Ruth could actually, like, have developed a relationship earlier that didn’t revolve so much about Ruth being astonished at Joyce’s naivete. but i don’t know if that would be a good thing or not, because a lot of Ruth’s narrative has revolved around her isolating herself from people.
…she and Sarah probably would have a lot in common
Under Joe’s rating system, is he using minus the way sports records use asterisks?
Yeah I’d just keep on running about as far as you can lest hell hath no become a forever curse that will follow you in form of the one seemingly closest to our lord and savior.
So my take on the last panel is that Joyce is the first girl that Joe sees as more then just a receptacle for little Joe, he sees her (or is starting to see her) as a person
Joe isn’t a bad guy but he knows (he may not want to admit it yet) his list isn’t good so he knows hes hurt someone he actually cares (or is beginning to care) about
He doesn’t want to hurt any of the girls much less rape them so the idea of hurting Joyce is against what he actually wants so when faced with the question from Joyce he does the only thing he can think of at the moment which is to run away
She means something to him
While Joe’s kind of a massive creep having a more omnipotent perspective on him makes me genuinely want to see him mature as a person, and I feel part of that growth comes from finding a genuine platonic friendship with Joyce.
Plus while Willis isn’t my favorite writer I at least trust his savviness in avoiding such nonsense tropes, like a version of events where Joyce becomes a tool for Joe’s growth, which I feel would be an easy enough trap to fall into. As it is I’m reserved but optimistic about this little arc here.
I think she might become the tool for growth for Joe, but not in a cliched way, which is something I’d also quite like to see but between her Jacob and Danny I think he has a real shot of becoming a decent man and not staying an over grown boy
That’s why I liked her question so much! Thanks for putting it into words for me. That was bugging me.
Hmmm… wouldn’t surprise me if the “Armor Piercing Question” page at TvTropes got an update after this one…
I bet joyce was a 7 oe 8 before joe found out how much he didnt loke her as a person
She was a 4 before the date.
I suspect that Joe’s laptop has a three- or four-page draft ‘in-depth review’ of Joyce that he wrote but never posted on the feed because it horrified him. It began to lapse into sappy poetry about her beauty (inner and outer) and rated her as “10+ – Snap this up and keep it before someone else does!”
When he realised what he’d done, he had a panic attack and responded by publishing a flame about her instead. He’s still got the review, though. He’s been elaborating on it by adding photos of her in candid moments and even a sound-track of some sort. It’s become his guilty addiction to just sit there at night and once again read through the review.
Yes, I’m saying that the ‘Zero-minus’ thing represents a fear reaction and a wall of denial.
I’m beginning to think that, too.
That is super creepy, if it’s true, so. Hope it’s not true.
Like just to elaborate: you’ve theorized that Joe has a shrine to Joyce. With “candid” (aka, taken without her knowledge or consent) photos and songs that make him think of her. That he keeps adding to, which he reads over late at night.
None of that is romantic. It is obsessive and stalker-like.
Maybe, but it seems much more straightforward that this blurb is just what he wrote after their first contact, before the date and that he changed the rating, but not the note when he was, justly, mad at her for the punching afterwards.
There’s probably some emotional connection there he is in deep denial about, but I doubt he’s gone nearly that far with it.
So, looking at how this plays into Joyce (…because the shit going on with Joe is a fucking minefield…):
I find her attitude here interesting. She’s looking at the info and, well, duh, she’s disgusted, kinda horrified and definitely feels objectified. But instead of recoiling in horror or going after Joe with a metaphorical (or literal) 2×4, she’s exploring it more.
It’s like… finding yourself in a hole, and deciding that the best way forward is to keep digging. Maybe she’ll end up more disgusted, maybe something else, but its the sort of attitude one gets when data doesn’t mix. The person that called her a Zero-Minus is the same person that she’s been having good conversations with in situations.
She wants to find out who the real Joe is, even if it hurts a bit. And that’s why Joyce is an awesome person: Willing to look for something better, even when all signs point to misogynistic douchebag.
it’s like – wow, all this bullshit, where the f did this bullshit come from
you just got rained on with a big pile of bullshit and now all you can do is stare at it, fascinated by its makeup and content
why are you like this, joe
She has a good handle on how Joe is, so probably not surprised at the list at all.
To be fair, Joyce is starting to realise her world view is kinda messed up. She’s probably also realised that hiring Mike to punch someone on their first date (and then punching him herself because he stared at the waitress’s breasts) were way over top.
Not that Joe’s actions were OK, but Joyce by now probably is a little confused on what is normal acceptable behaviour for people outside the culture she grew up in, and has probably started to (at lest try to ) hold back on the instant condemnation.
Also, rereading the date between them, am I the only one to notice how Joe consistently protected Joyce from getting punched by Mike? I get it’d probably ruin his date, but it seemed more like something he did by default because “hitting girl’s are wrong” or “a proper man protects his date”. Still sexist, but at the least he will accept some of the sexist traits that are inconvenient for him on top of the ones that works to his advantage.
I identify a lot with Joyce’s approach here cause it’s one I’ve adopted a lot. Being horrified and hurt at a piece of bigotry, but desiring to break it down and understand it at the root level.
And I can definitely see her reasons for doing so. She’s had some big bad encounters involving intense bigotries with people she’s cared deeply about, so learning how it all works is a crucial part of figuring out her way of coping with it as well as learning how much baggage she was saddled with from her raising environment.
And that can be powerful.
…one can also compare it to the shit with Scarface, come to think of it.
Fucktard McRapey is, outwardly, everything Joyce was looking for in a potential husband: A Pastor’s son, religious, conventionally attractive apparently kind… and he turned out to be an outright awful person.
Joe is, outwardly, everything Joyce is either against or uncomfortable with: Openly sexual, objectifies women (and her), crude… but she’s gotten to know him as a better person than that.
I’m not banging on a Joyce/Joe ship here, not at all. But it might be giving Joyce reasons to look deeper into people…
Wait a sec…if Joe shows the list to other guys as a guild to help them find the most attractive girls on campus, perhaps his labelling Joyce a 0- was to make other men stay away from her. He actually still holds a candle for her.
Well there’s a theory. He’s become friends with her, at least in a non-public way, and doesn’t want her to get hurt, by any of the dudebros(?) that see the list, so he put her so far down it that they’d just ignore her.
But like I’ve said before, 15+ years reading about him, so my view on DoA-verse Joe is tainted by Walkyverse Joe, and as such I’m able to cut him some slack cause I want him to get better again.
Gods, I hate how easy it is to excuse bad behavior. Glad it didn’t extend to Middle-Name-Ryan, Becky’s Dad and Amber’s Dad. Probably have to excuse myself out life if I did.
Thaaaat might not help Joyce actually. A lot of guys would take that to mean ‘easy pickings’.
True. Guys can be jerks. Also, your statement reminds me of some song I hear on Pop Radio right now, with a line like how he picks up girls with few ‘likes’, and it just feels so creepy.
…ooh.
If so, you’d think he’d have changed the “hit that” part as well.
Zero minus never made sense to me. A zero can’t be a negative…and when numerals are negative, aren’t they before the number, not after? Then I realized what 0- means. Its not a number. Its a pictograph.
0-
I have to say, I don’t see Joe on the same shitlord level as many others do.Yes, his do-list ist dumb and infantile, but I guess that will be resolved in this storyline.
But perhaps this is a sign of my male privilege.
wow!!! maybe!!
excuse my sarcasm but like i dont think you understand the oppressiveness of having your entire value demeaned to your appearance, not just by One Dude but by literally. everyone. to one degree or another. like. joe is just explicit about it, but this is the background radiation of women’s lives
not only is his do list dumb and infantile, but it is offensive and horrifying on so many levels. because it makes it very clear how little respect Joe has for the women in his life if he can publicly air his opinions on their relative attractiveness. he thinks women will go “oh that dumb attractive horndog”, and to a degree they do, but they do so knowing that he secretly despises them, and will rate them on a website he’s had up since junior high.
like of the women we’ve seen Joe “score” with: it’s basically just been Roz and Penny. Roz, who wants meaningless sex with someone she doesn’t have to form a connection with; and Penny, who is literally his teacher and doesn’t give a shit about anybody’s rules. neither of these are really…affirming relationships.
like idk dude, i don’t know how you can read multiple women talking about how creepy this is and walk away not being like “wow maybe i should think about this in the context of my own life, considering that i am only one person and cannot experience everything that everyone else experiences and cannot even fully understand what someone else has experienced because i am not that person and will never be”. but maybe that’s just me!
That’s what I was meaning to say. I don’t walk in your shoes, so I can’t relate to your perspective.
ok
you came off to me as using your privilege as a buffer in order to not take seriously what people were saying
Every man is evaluated just as women are. Maybe you never did, just as I never rated anyone. But perhaps being physically stronger than my critics gives me confidence you never had access to.
Gojira, you’re missing the point. There’s nothing wrong with preferring one person over another, or particular attributes, or considering those to determine who’d you prefer to sleep with.
But what Joe does goes far, far beyond that. He’s doing it ALL the time. To the point where he refuses to talk about women except with regards to their rating and how much he wants to bang them. Which is also practically the only thing he’ll talk TO them about.
There’s also his lack of respect for boundaries, personal space, and consent beyond the bare minimum to not be a rapist. People have explained this all over the comments, day after day. It’s not hard to understand.
But perhaps being less inclined to smugly dismiss women when they told me of their experiences gives me insight you never had access to.
I think you may want to ask yourself why you’ve Ren multiple women in the strip react to the list either with disgust or pain, not to mention all of the many people in the comics who are also reacting to it with pain and anger, and your response is to say, “Idk, i don’t see Joe as being as bad as everyone else.”
Why isn’t the pain he’s inflicting in the comic registering as a knock against Joe?
Are you feeling the impulse to tell what you see as a bunch of women that we are all overreacting and it can’t be that bad?
(This is a genuine question because they’ve done studies and found that the average guy literally does assume that any upset woman he encounters is overreacting. “She’s at 8, I assume the situation is 5 at most.”)
There is a thing where this sort of thing in real life typically gets folded under “boys will be boys” and deliberately socially diminished.
So yeah, I think if you haven’t been targeted by this sort of culture it can be easy to just view it as “ok, that’s dumb, but whatever, boys will be boys”, because that’s what’s socially encouraged.
So I can definitely see what you’re saying on it not quite hitting.
I’d be okay with just strips of Joe running through various scenes and popping out of unexpected places while Danny and Joyce chase him for the next couple of days.
Joe, you gotta wear heelies to escape your feelies.
Ooooh, Mama likey armor-piercing questions. 83 Hee hee.
Well, that’s interesting! Given the way he flees at such a simple question, I suspect that there is something there that Joe hates and fears more than anything else: Real feelings. I suspect that his fear became anger, as is its wont, and Joe used his list to lash out at the cause of his discomfort.
Whether or not I’m right, he’s definitely lashed out at Joyce for some reason!
sounds like it’s time for a taylor swift playlist
The simplest explanation for him lashing out at Joyce is in response to the punching during their date. For anything else, you’d have to assume he changed the list much more recently.
And while you’re almost certainly right that he’s fleeing the emotional implications of the question, I’m amused at the idea he’s still in fear of more punching.
I like how Danny is phrasing his getting ‘Joe’ to a safe place as sparing JOYCE. Like, he’s not worried about getting Joe somewhere safe, he’s worried about getting this ass away from Joyce, and that’s clear if you’re paying attention.
And Joe is NOT paying attention, so that subtext is flying over his head. ‘Eh, she can’t hurt me.’ Because somehow, he’s convinced that Danny wants to protect HIM. Selective hearing, much?
good catch!!! this is an excellent catch
danny has gotten smarter about being in situations with dudes blown up with their own privilege
Ooh, good catch on that interpretation of that. And yeah, you’re absolutely right. Danny is no longer interested in getting Joe “safe” for Joe or for “old time’s sake”, but now just to spare other women from his jackholery.
And yeah, Joe is really good at selectively ignoring clear social cues when they are inconvenient to what he wants.
That’s right, Joe. Just play it cool and macho. Cool and macho allllll the way through Panel 5.
And to infinity!
An 11, Joyce, you were an 11.
You can’t be a zero, Joyce. There’s just no way.
O man, HO lee shit, the pacing, I can HEAR the Foley work in Joyce’s last panel, hot diggity shit this is good stuff
As a random note, Joyce is outside. Alone.
for those who forgot, she had earned a bad phobia of that thanks to Ryan.
The door is still near as a safety, but it looks like she is testing the water to get past the trauma.
Which puts some weights as of waht exactly happened a few days prior with Amber, and whether it went public and/or Ryan ended up arrested.
Exactly!
Mmhmm, hell, she’s even in the location where shit went down (though it’s unclear whether or not Dorothy would have told her). This is her taking baby steps in recovery and it’s beautiful to see.
“Before I hurt you” would work as a book title too.
It does! Sounds like a pretty interesting read with many feelings! And after a quick googling, it’s also not been used, it seems!
Pffft… Eat it, Joe.
And Joyce, honey, you’re an “i” just like everyone else.
oh, joyce doesnt have the cast anymore
Joyce has… Joyce has weaponized those big, blue eyes.
Her approach here is similar to here:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/wouldve/
She is open, direct, polite, irrefutable, and those big blue eyes and hurt innocence hits RIGHT in the feels. Yeah, you better run, Joe.
Note to self, again: Never, never NEVER, mess with Joyce.
Damn straight! Not to mention that she’s physically a lot stronger than people would assume when looking at her.
Joyce will break your walls, and if you still insist on being an asshole, she can break your face. I love her!
Second that. She’s speaking as Joyce directly to Joe, not as one stereotype to another. It terrifies him. But there’s also an opportunity there if he’ll take it.
It can be super powerful. Like it doesn’t always work (and in some spaces it almost never works), but when it does that direct and earnest appeal to a person’s humanity can leave a big impact.
“I have literally never seen a human being move that fast.”
Wanted to get all the comic reactions out tonight but I’m running out of steam, so rest will be in morning. But here’s the first panel at least.
Comic Reactions:
CONTENT WARNING: Racism and Sexism
Panel 1: Ah, fatphobia and racism. Two amazing flavors that go great together.
And those eyes by Danny. I wonder if this is the first time he’s “seen” Joe’s list. Maybe ever, certainly at least in a long time. And its content disturbs him which it probably should. It’s an appalling list on about ninety different levels.
And I think that highlights a thing. That it’s easy to develop a blind-spot surrounding a friend’s actions especially as it often feels like if they turn out to be shit, that would somehow be a condemnation of you as a person or certainly make previous time together feel like wasted time.
I think Danny has gotten used to just staying back from this whole side of Joe and sort of overlooking it as “that’s just my buddy Joe, he’s a bit of a sexist, but he’s got a good heart.” And I think this is the first time he’s really gotten up close and personal with what all of Joe’s meant in the end. How casual he was with the information, how brutally it treats women.
And that can be a hard thing. Realizing that the “problematic” side to a friend was actually a gaping red flag. And I’ve been there. I’ve cut former friends out of my life because something I foolishly overlooked or minimized in my head was a glaring sign of what they were capable of. I try to be much more vigilant these days and trust my instincts a lot more.
And to hear that, to know he can’t unhear it, Danny has been forced to fully face what enabling Joe has meant, what he was actually saying to women when he got upset on Joe’s behalf. I have a lot of sympathy and this is part of growing up as well. Realizing that no, that “slightly” racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic friend isn’t worth defending on those aspects and that instead it’s important to call it out early rather than letting it metastasize.
And so it deepens the crack between them.
The list itself is also very revealing because of what it is and what it isn’t.
Each description and notes have been largely appearance focused with very rare comments as to emotion or behavior and no comments as to intellect or chemistry. On top of that, they are incredibly non-subtle and it doesn’t take more than a second to piece together who is talking about with any given person. And the notes and descriptions include useful stalking tips. So you end up with a thing that all but uses their name as it sets their appearance and location for any to find.
But still they don’t use names. And I’m sure if I called Joe to the carpet he’d claim it was to “protect the anonymity of the girls” despite him handing this list to everyone he met and viewed it as an objective community resource. But the reality is, we’ve seen it in comic*, that he doesn’t care about the women he pursues to bother to learn their names, not at least at first when he makes these descriptions.
* http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/04-the-bechdel-test/cam/
And that’s probably partially intentionally. It’s easier to justify mistreating a marginalized person if you can remove the idea that they are human or anything alike you. Like, this is the reason there’s so much money in the “X outgroup” is nothing like “Y dominant group” lecture and book circuit. Because people who are invested in continuing systems of oppression need and want a means to justify it to themselves, to tell themselves that it’s okay, you’re just practically a different species to X marginalized group, that perpetuating this is only the natural way the world works.
And so there’s a lot invested in selling story after story about how men and women are aliens to each other owing to stereotype bullshit. In selling stories about how “criminal”, “unintelligent”, or “animalistic” non-white people are. In selling the idea that gay people are coming for your rights and are nothing like your good moral Christian community.
So treat them as numbers and descriptions, pay no attention to the damage this book could do if it got out, leave no record of their names, it’s all okay, because women are just ambulatory sex organs and not actually people in their own right.
I’m sorry, I’m going to need the racism pointed out to me on this one. 8/ Please educate me, because I’m not picking up on it.
“hijab girl”, reducing Asma to the religious accoutrement she wears in the contextual culture of a US that is in the midst of violently mistreating muslim women and targeting them based solely on said article of clothing*.
*Like a young teenager wearing a hijab is what “set off” the Portland nazi who stabbed three people.
And that’s his reduction for her. Just “racial category” “behind the front desk”*.
*Which is also likely dangerous. There’s been an explosion of anti-muslim hate crimes and harassment on campuses with asshole alt-righters targeting their fellow students who are muslim based on stuff like this. So this basically served as a giant welcome sign to harassers that “a muslim woman you can dump all your racist baggage on” is in this trapped space where she’s not allowed to express being pissed off at you.
Ah. I see your point, but I don’t think I agree (I agree telling the world “here’s a muslim” might be endangering her, though).
The reduction is obvious and expected – it’s not like he doesn’t reduce everyone else. That she’s slightly more reduced than the other entries of the do list strikes me as coming from the same place as “insufficient data” – the hijab and her position behind the counter don’t let him categorise her the same way he categorises the other girls. There’s no hint of him presenting Asma wearing a hijab in a negative manner. Sal is “could be a 10, but smokes”, but Asma isn’t “insufficient data, but she DOES wear a hijab…”
I’m not saying that entries in the do list aren’t awful, it just doesn’t look like Asma’s more awful than the other ones (except, as you pointed out, that it flags her for every xenophobic shit on campus).
No, it’s not, more that there’s just reductive bigoted stuff meshed into a lot of the sexist reductive stuff. With fatphobia, racist tropes like angry black woman, and the racist trope of reducing a muslim woman to her headwear.
Like it’s just a shit cherry on an already pretty awful sundae.
In full honesty, I’m still not sure I get it, and I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be able to pick up on it “in the wild”, as it were, but I defer to your better attunement to these things. I detected the awful sundae, though, so hopefully me not getting the shit cherry won’t be problematic.
Clarification: Of course I can tell calling Asma “hijab girl” is awful – I’m tonedeaf, not braindead; I’m not sure I could tell that her entry is worse than the other two, is what I mean.
I think it’s more that it’s not a competition? The statement is racist, and that doesn’t change based on the awfulness of the statements around it. nor on the intentions of the person who said it.
There’s a joke that goes something like “I’m not racist, I hate everyone equally”. That’s not how racism actually works. … but there are plenty of people who want to encourage the idea that it does work that way so they can do racist things and not face any consequences.
I wouldn’t worry about that too much. 🙂
Hell, the thing about these kinds of common stereotypes is they are designed to fly under the radar, because that’s what gets relentlessly sold to us in movies, TV, and political culture. So it just seems normal when divorced from its other contexts or usages.
Heck, I still fuck up on this kind of stuff, as it’s hard to be fully aware of all of the privileges and microaggressions. It’s just part of awareness. 😀
i really kind of hate how “hijab girl” is “not enough data to tell” like biatch pls
im going to go read thebootydiaries until i find some chill
….man, that does kind of imply that Joe specifically described her that way because “I can’t see enough of her body and hope to change that”, doesn’t it?
It’s not like he’s had conversations with every girl he’s ranked.
PRETTY MUCH
I’m thinking that it’s in “‘front desk hijab girl’ is marked ‘insufficient data.'” As I read it, Joe is implicitly reducing her headscarf/clothing to something between his eyes and the only part of her he’s interested in — her body. In reality, it could mean much more to her than that (though I doubt she’s upset that it kept her off the list). Arguably not ‘racist’ per se, but pretty disgusting regardless.
Oh the other replies didn’t load for me. Sorry if this is redundant.
Did you get anything else from Billie and Sal’s quote unquote ‘entries’? Because I am just sitting here seething that Joe goes around looking for casual fucks all the time but apparently Billie coming up to him once, casually, equals desperate.
I’m not even sure he’s referring to that or to the time she went for Danny.
Yup, that bothers me a lot. Like, it’s such old-school sexist bullshit. Oh, I need to vomit my horny on everyone who walks past, but if someone approaches me in a friendly manner looking for casual sex, then they must be “desperate” and thus unattractive.
It’s the rape culture logic of a woman must be always willing and game to be “pushed” into sex but not be seen as someone who would have it willingly.
Yeeeep.
Which makes me wonder how he’d like Sal (assuming he just saw her and didn’t actually interact with her – though I wouldn’t be shocked if he was catcalling or something because Joe’s a creepy fuck) – she doesn’t tend to like people coming onto her, and only seems into things where she initiates flirting or whatever.
Panel 1 (cont): I also love how offended and angry Joyce gets on behalf of Dorothy. And how much Joyce sees her as a beautiful tropical fish who does not deserve that kind of crappy assessment.
But it also creates a strong contrast to Joe and highlights how they each focus on the people in their lives. Like, for Joyce, Dorothy is an 11ty hundred/10 because of her kindness, her intelligence, her grace, her empathy and dogged loyalty, etc…
But to Joe, all Dorothy is is her physical appearance and how likely she is to do him. Like it’s such a superficial understanding of the person that the fact that he’s wasted years on this misogynist dumpster fire is made even more of a joke.
Like, it’s okay to be turned on by a person solely by their appearance but there’s no way you should be ejaculating those feelings on everyone and acting like this is the gold standard of romantic and sexual attraction. Like everyone else has the same deliberately dulled tastes or priorities in a partner either sexual or romantic. Like your boner log fucking matters.
And that’s been the worst thing of this ill-advised “list”. That he genuinely seems to believe he’s leaving behind an objective and crucial tool for lady assessment that is universally applicable. That this is useful in a way that justifies giving potential stalkers coordinates to potential victims (both to mock and bully the low-numbers and to endlessly sexually harass the high-numbers). He’s treating a hobby of essentially keeping a running log of boner reactions like it matters to justify to himself why he’s wasted his life on something horrible that no one who doesn’t have ill intent has actually wanted his list.
He’s constructing a fantasy, all to avoid owning that he did something incredibly sexist and fucked up and gross. And he’s still doubling down on it all. Joyce asks him in genuine concern if she’s the only 0 and he’s immediately quick to repeat the shit and own it fully.
And there’s layers to this. Joyce’s worry is not because she genuinely gives a fuck about the number, but because this was the person she turned to and put trust in when she was trying to survive her trip home. This was someone she had thought she had repaired into a strong friendship. And yet he was saying all his awful stuff and reporting in his dick blog how she’s the unsexiest creature in the universe.
And he’s standing by it now. Not apologizing for hurting her or owning he did something wrong. But doubling down on the bad thing. And I think Joe serves as an excellent demonstration of something I’ve seen way too often in a certain kind of guy who is heavily invested in toxic masculinity.
And that’s the refusal to ever own wrong-doing or admit they’ve ever made a mistake. Like, think of Trump or Bush and the convoluted knots they tied themselves into to avoid ever changing their mind or acknowledging and apologizing for their misdeeds, doing everything in their gaslighting powers to rewrite history all to avoid admitting they were wrong or hurt people.
And it all stems down to the weird toxic masculinity rules we’ve made up. Where we decided that apologizing or growing and evolving in one’s positions is some girly thing girls do and that real men double-down no matter what. And it makes so many of them utterly insufferable and meaningless to deal with.
Even when it’s hurting one of the few people he has, he holds his fragile masculinity as more important. He’s willing to hurt himself so completely just to avoid being seen in a group of only 2 other people as someone who lets themselves become vulnerable and admit fault.
It’s tragic.
Also, can we talk about how he described Dorothy when he was adding her to the list? “Nice rank, but could use more booty. Kinda bookish’. That is his assessment of someone who is supposed to have been his friend since he was 15.
Seriously, FUCK JOE. Figuratively, not literally.
Mm hmm, even someone who has been with him for years, who has reached out and gotten his back multiple times when she had no reason to, who is someone he is at least willing to pretend is his friend, she’s just a number based on his initial boner reaction to her tits.
Because he fears so intensely being seen as a person who sees women as people rather than ambulatory sex organs.
The thing to remember about this is that the duration of the strips involving Joe’s list getting hacked/leaked? For us it’s been days, for him, 15 minutes at most.
Don’t get me wrong, everything leading up to this period is Joe at full jackass mode. But I hesitate to assume what his actual stance on all of this is. One generally needs time to process shit like this, right now Joe’s all about getting to a place he’s comfortable so he can think.
Joyce seemed like that for a bit. Now that she’s asks a hard question? Not so much.
It was equally shitty when he wrote that list. He’s had since junior high to think on this. I think he’s had plenty of time.
People don’t often confront the bad shit they do unprompted. I am not defending what he was doing or his attitude towards women up to this point, I’m only saying that his mind is still in crisis “I don’t want to think about this” mode.
Indeed, like it’s not like people haven’t told him his list is shitty. Pretty much everyone in his life has asked him to knock it off and that it’s awful and reductive. And he’s still shoved it in everyone’s faces that he could.
And only now that he was briefly in an environment with consequences where those consequences were “a number of women are upset with you but not in a way that poses any real physical threat” does he even recognize anything wrong.
And it’s not even that his list was wrong. He’s still defending his list, still refusing to take ownership, and the second he’s dragged to a space where he’s not receiving that most mildest of consequences he’s back to his old self not giving a fuck about how his actions have affected others.
Like, he’s been actively not thinking about this for a long time, and I think his natural inclination where he finds a quiet space to clear his head will be to try and reassert his fantasy narrative in his head about the list, cause that’s what he’s trying to do here until Joyce asks him a tough question.
I got the impression that he clarified it to “zero minus” because at this point it’s not about rating attractiveness, it’s about “practically excising her from the list” and I feel like he wants her to understand that this is basically a refusal to rate, and that’s why it’s so over the top.
And that’s why he ran away from her question: he doesn’t feel bad about giving her a NaN rating, but the actual rating he’d given her way back when? Yup that’s not a topic he ever wanted to breach, and he probably doesn’t even understand himself why it feels so OUCH to bring it up (it’s because rating women is bad, Joe, and Joyce is not an exception but the rule you’re only now starting to notice)
He doesn’t wanna admit she was a four.
Even odds on him being afraid of telling her that she was rated four at first or that he thought she’d be a 10 later.
But only after he ‘upgraded’ her with his dick.
You’ve been right about everything Joe.
I bow to your keen insight.
The Dorothy/Joyce ship is gaining steam oh my
And I love how what finally gets Joe to scram is Joyce engaging with his system at face value. She’s not yelling at him for its very existence, she’s taking it exactly the way he always wanted it to be taken, and THAT’s what finally gets through to him.
Because when he rated Joyce as a 4, he did not expect to ever have her, his friend, look at him and ask what her rating was.
Because this system IS dehumanizing and humiliating and friendship-negating-before-it-could-even-start, and it’s only now starting to dawn on Joe that it might have been one big bad idea.
he rated her as a four, but with expectations that she could be a 10 instead if he managed to ‘cure’ her churchiness.
and he’s off, making his way for the interstate.
I agree with Joe. Sal’s a 10 but I Just. Can’t. Handle. Smoking.
Don’t rate women, Joe.
Or at least keep the ratings in your mind.
I mean I know I may sound like a bit of a jerk, but I will admit to rating how attracted I am to a guy. They change as I get to know the person, but it helps me kinda identify what exactly it is that I find attractive. IDK maybe I’m just weird.
I guess that 0- is Joe’s way of saying “emotional attachment made, do not want”
Or more likely: Hired guy to punch me on date. Do not want.
And also punched me. Regardless, do not want.
*Shipping intensifies*
Seriously, the amount of shipping that goes on here is freightening.
Holy crap, is this a double character arc?
By the way, is making such a list a punishable offence if it gets traced back to Joe? I know I’d feel really creeped out and unsafe if I found out a guy was thinking of me this way. I’d wonder what I did wrong, was I over familiar with him, was I dressed the wrong way…before I realised that it didn’t matter what I did or didn’t do. My very existence caused me to be in that list. So can Joe possibly be punished?
Doubt it. Unless it could be somehow connected to stalking it’s just a creepy hobby.
Legally? Veeeeeery unlikely. I mean, theoretically, you should have the opportunity in some places… But considering actual rape and stalking gets treated so badly, something like this would never make it past a cop that at best is sympathetic, at worst is laughing at you.
Socially, it depends a lot on the local environment. At least in this place, it seems like Joe will get… Well, not properly punished, but at least shunned hard.
For writing down his thoughts?
No!
What is legal and what is right or different things for great reasons.
Nope. There’s no real laws about stuff like this and even socially people tend to get upset with you if you go off on a man about behavior stuff like this, because that means in society’s eyes that you’re a “fun-killing feminist who can’t take a joke”.
It’s deeply not right and we should have a culture where people who act like Joe are socially shunned until they fix their shit, but it’s not the one we live in*.
*Though it’s possible to create spaces that do do this. I’ve been a component of spaces that deliberately try and foster consent and that actively discourage reductive sexism like Joe’s.
I think you are awesome for doing this.
Depends on campus policy (and how bad it’s hurting their image, if people raise a stink about it). Might be some disciplinary stuff, probably along the lines of a slap on the wrist. Possibly more, the uni is probably in CYA mode after the gunman.
Legally, it could be taken as sexual harassment.
Socially, there can absolutely be consequences. Shunning, yelling, anger, etc.
School wise, it could be considered sexual harassment and depending on how mean his comments for lower rated girls were, a form of bullying which might lead to disciplinary action.
I don’t know if “hurt him” is the right way to phrase it. I mean, he went on a date with her and she turned out to be kind of nuts. Bringing a physically violent chaperone along?
As I recall, she punched him.
Face it Joe this is your song now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVaRHJn_dgM
Joyce in panel 4 is my new favourite thing about this comic.
It’s my new favorite Joyce panel.
Something I forgot to comment on, earlier.
Panel 2:
Danny asks if Joe wants to spare Joyce by moving on.
Joe responds that Joyce can’t bother him, too much.
Mmm…not actually what he asked, Joe.
Yup, it’s such an important little narcissistic moment. He’s asked if maybe he should care about the woman before him and he essentially responds with “pfft, who cares how I’m hurting her, she has no means of hurting me and that’s all that matters”.
And it’s why he needs to be abandoned to be ripped apart by the people angry with him. Because that’s the only way he’s going to internalize how harmful and awful his actions have been.
Brave Sir Robin ran away, bravely ran away away….
When Joyce reared her blondie head, he bravely turned away and fled, brave, brave, brave Sir Joe
Panel 5: Danny’s got his uke. Hooray for ukulelespace!
Danny, this is your moment. This is why you have it! You are obligated to run alongside Joe and play the appropriate music.
Considering all we know about Joe, Im really starting to think at least part of his list’s creation is to cause what we’ve seen in the last few strips. as others have said, he hates real feelings and he’s seen in his parents relationship how real feelings go. He’s an asshole in how he’s trying to distance feelongs from other people, but as others have mentioned thats something toxic masculinity has shown him is “acceptable” (not really). Which is part of why he runs now. Joyce knows more and might be able to piece things together. Especially since his advice to her during the trip home was to hide in a place with lots of people. I have a feeling this is exactly how joe fell into that crowd of toxic masculinity and dannys fully aware of it, dorothy too. might explain why dorothy is not so confrontational on it.
100% agree with this!
And yeah, I think Joyce is cracking open the shell and taking a peek at the gears under the surface and Joe is not at all comfortable with that and viewed exactly this sort of thing as his armor against that.
I love the irony of Joe of all people characterizing someone as desperate.
How is that ironic? Joe himself isn’t desperate. He gets plenty of what he wants.
Although, now, that will probably change…
Naaaah. Joe’s entire persona reeks of desperation. He’d have just as much sex without it, as neither Roz nor Penny needed his PUA bullshit (because they already wanted casual sex), and all we’ve seen with any other woman is Joe striking out hard and taking nothing short of physical violence as a strong enough “no” to stop him. (I mean, look at how he insisted on hitting on Sarah, while she was glaring death at him.)
if Joe is really “getting plenty”, he doesn’t actually act like it.
This is one of the things that bothers me about the presentation of Joe. We’ve only seen him interact with women who either are quite happy with casual sex or women who are willing to threaten physical violence.
Joe claims to have sex regularly, with multiple different women. Danny, who’d like be in the best position to know, seems to take him at face value. It’s possible he’s just lying about all of it and the only people he’s actually had sex with since college are with Roz & Penny. I don’t think that’s the narrative intent though.
I really wish we’d seen some more of his successful pickup attempts. More of how he reacts to people not interested, but not as emphatically opposed as Joyce or Sarah.
I worry we’ve seen exactly how he reacts to people who are calmly not interested, that he pressures and pressures them until they either say yes or blow up at him or find a means to escape.
Like, it would be consistent to his general PUAishness, as many of their tactics are about exploiting social niceties to monopolize more and more of a “target’s” time. And we’ve seen him be aggressively forward and even inappropriately touching women in a cold open before, with him sneaking behind Dorothy and Sierra and grabbing them without permission. With his opening line with Sierra when Sierra got thrown out of the room for sexy times. And with his approach on Rachel.
Like it seems he rolls with expressions of disinterest and keeps going only stopping when there’s an extreme reaction that women are heavily socially discouraged from giving. And that’s a thing that means if he hasn’t committed sexual assault by coercion yet, it’s only by fool’s luck.
That’s my feeling too, but not having seen more than we have makes it easier for even readers not to see through his facade.
That’s kind of how he reacted when Danny was calmly not interested in sleeping with Billie. He badgered him until he gave a “reason,” then immediately dismissed that reason.
Yup. It’s a beautiful bit of IT’S ALWAYS PROJECTION. He can run around and be essentially this desperate ball of hormones doing everything in his power to avoid feelings and “get laid”, but a woman dares approach him for a casual good time in a respectful manner and she’s the one who gets labeled “desperate” because she’s not his ideal target body type.
Joe, like most people, is a mix of privileges and non-privileges. The problem is he doesn’t just trip over his, he straight up smothers himself in them.
For those wondering what Joyce means when she says she hurt Joe http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/olives/
Note that he specifically says “You punched me in the face.” where ‘you’ could either be referring to Joyce or Mike or both. Joyce’s response is “Our fists were instruments of the Lord.” Ours. So it’s pretty safe to assume she landed at least one punch herself after Mike was finished.
Joyce – “What was I, Joe, before I hurt you?”
Joe – “whoop whoopwhoopwhoopwhoopwhoop”
God damn, that fourth panel is channeling Walkyverse Joyce pretty hard.
heh. “hard”
Maybe Joy is in Joe’s Friendzone.
Which may not be a bad place to be.
Who CARES what rating Joe gives to Joyce or indeed anybody? He’s not Bill Clinton. Even Clinton at his sleaziest didn’t rate women online. He wouldn’t have gotten to be President if he was that stupid.
OK, I’m just going to suggest that you read all of Cerberus’ posts on the matter for each and every strip in Joe’s current storyline. Heck, I’ll be happy if you just read her comments for today.
The condensed version: We care because we see this toxic BS in real life; and the consequences of this happening in real life is more entitlement, more sexual assaults, more rape… And worst of all, more getting away with all of those things.
It’s one fucking thing after another. Updates to come.
The situation this fucking time is as follows. I was woken up by my mother’s boyfriend (I’ve talked about him before), shouting at me about a phone. So, once I wake up and go downstairs to figure it out, I hear my mom shouting and go to investigate. He’s still on about the fucking phone. Once he comes out of the bedroom, I ask him outright; what the fuck is going on? Turns out, the phone is off the receiver, and he can’t find it anywhere. So, naturally, this means my mother or I relocated it. Fine, whatever, I can deal with him wanting to know where it’s at.
The problem is, he phrases everything as an accusation, basically deciding for me that I’ve had people over while he was gone and they moved his phone. Keep in mind, he’s a couple jars of whiskey in already. He keeps pressing, and I fucking snap on him. I take it waaaay to fucking far, too, but I don’t care in the moment. One thing leads to another, he’s decided I’ve gotta go. I’m effectively kicked out, and if I’m not, it’s still out in the open that he doesn’t want me here. Fine, whatever, dude. I’ll get out the moment I can, no further questions asked.
Well, I go upstairs to cool off, and decide I should probably apologise for overstepping and shouting at him. And I do. He took off to the store to get something, and when he got back, I was waiting on the couch, ready to say my piece and be done with it. And I did say what I had to say, without backpedaling, and making it clear that if he honestly wants me out, I’m out at the first opportunity. I don’t pay bills or really help around the house much, so whatever.
And then the rant started. “You’re not a man, you don’t deserve to eat, you should be hungry all the time, you don’t earn anything”, yadda yadda yadda. Effectively “You have no job, and therefore are worthless”. What the fuck ever, I’ve heard it all a thousand times. The fucking problem is, it took a goddamn hour and a half to say all of it, and it diverted into tangents about his upbringing, ableist shit about my autism, and more fun goodies about how much of a contest our lives are (which, way to go dumbass, you’ve implied that you see me as competition in the first place).
Long story short (I hope), this place is no longer a viable option, and I’ve finally got the fire under my ass to put my all into job searching and getting out on my own. I’ve got a buddy keeping an eye out for low-rent houses or apartments, so there’s that. Not really gonna ask anyone here for help, since I’ve still got the resources handy from the last crisis, and y’all have done plenty on that front. Just needed to get all this vented.
*hugs*
Ugh. Emotional abuse sucks so much. Good luck getting the hell out of there.
and this is almost certainly redundant, but, I can’t resist throwing in a resources link: https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks#wiki_useful_resources
-hugs-
that sounds awful
i hope you get out soon
no matter what you do deserve to eat and you don’t deserve this treatment
*appropriate gesture of support* 🙁
*hugs if wanted, appropriate gesture of support if not* and fuck your mom’s boyfriend.
Mom’s called a friend in Indiana and already has people ready to help us load a U-Haul. Unless I can arrange a way to stay in Centralia, this is it.
I don’t want to leave everything I know…
I believe this is appropriate for the final panel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFbWAE38DXs
I wanna complain that I wanna know how Amber’s doing, but BEST HAT is here.
Also, rating women is wrong, but Joe’s rating of Billy is way too low even so
As an aside, it’s a little weird to scroll for several days through screens and screens and screens of posts trying to reverse-engineer Joe’s rating system.
Bet she was a 10 ^^
You’d lose that bet. She was a 4. 😛
He said she COULD be a 10 though, after he ‘upgraded’ her with his dick. *shudders*
I admire your dedication to popping this particular fandom ship bubble.
Eh, folks can ship what they like (obvious exceptions for rape, abuse, statutory issues, etc.) but people should have accurate info on their ships. And this particular piece of info is ‘I need a shower’ territory, at least for me.
I mean ALL SHIPS MUST DIE. ARGLE BLARGLE I HATE LOVE.
Currently, any Joe ship is in that territory.
Yeah, Joe’s kinda awful and I wouldn’t wish him on any ladies who are into guys. Others might feel differently.
No, I agree! I don’t ship Joe/Joyce right now but I’m not opposed to other people shipping it. I can see I wasn’t clear enough in what I meant by “this PARTICULAR bubble” — the he-must-have-rated-her-a-10 bubble.
Oh no, I was largely joking around! No offence was taken, and your comment made me laugh.
Okay, so, clearly, I fail at reading. You’re cool. And yeah, that makes sense.
<3
Panel 2:
Danny’s face is incredibly evocative here. He’s pissed at Joe. Maybe for what Joe’s been doing and the sheer enormity of it. Maybe because he’s exploited Danny for years to enable this level of awful hurtful bullshit and is still trying to exploit him now (demanding Danny literally drag him away from the consequences of his actions, for instance). Maybe because he’s still mistreating women in front of him while demanding an escape from the consequences of doing exactly that. Honestly, I think it might be all of the above, but especially the latter.
Cause yeah, Joe is still treating women like shit to their faces. Still doubling down on the awful, learning no lessons from the clusterfuck he just demanded Danny drag him from. Revealing the casual lie in his little emotional tactic from earlier to get Danny to reprise his old “Joe rescuer” role, exploiting Danny’s compassion and desire to do right by his friends when they are hurting.
And I think Danny might be real close to done dealing with it, which is going to be terrible for Joe, because he is drifting dangerously close to losing literally every one of his friends through no fault but his own.
Yet still Joe doubles down and reveals more awfulness. Like, dismissing Joyce as “just Joyce”, despite the fact that he really should be apologizing at the very least. And acting like she’s only something to worry about if she “bothers” him. This despite the fact that he had Danny drag him out not because women were bothering him, but because they had legitimate grievances that needed to be addressed.
And instead he’s throwing it away in a heartblink and treating Joyce’s earnest, calm, and compassionate reaction to his hurtful crap like nothing to be even remotely concerned about because it’s doesn’t pose a “threat” of consequence.
Which is also a thing with him. Unless a woman is blowing up at him and showing an anger that society says is inappropriate for women to feel, he tends to not much value what they say unless it’s consenting to sex. Like, he has this dismissive style when a woman is trying to calmly discuss something with him, especially with regards to his behavior. We’ve seen that before in how he treated Sarah when she tried to talk to Joe about his then upcoming date with Joyce as well as in the open heckling he did of Roz or in the complete goofball mockery of Dorothy when she’s tried to reach out.
Unless a typical woman is saying “fuck me” or blowing up at him he doesn’t really pay attention and I feel like that is something deeply inherited from his fucked up dad given his description of his divorcing parents as “yelling a lot”.
And that’s also so bad for him, because it means he’s telling the women in his life that he’s not going to take them seriously unless they fill that screaming woman role that is something he still has baggage about.
Panel 3: The pettiness of Joe’s little fit of revenge in labeling her zero minus is so telling of so much in so many ways. Both the aggrieved entitlement Joe has about the women he pursues, but also the sublimated way he treats real objections to behavior.
Like, Joe has a legitimate grievance in the date with Joyce* (she paid a guy to beat him up, was openly dismissive to his religion and past pains, and was a terrible date overall), but none of that makes it in. Just the number change.
*More than Joyce, certainly, but it’s worth noting that Joyce has some legitimate grievances about that date as well, most damningly about how hard he worked to remove key consent barriers in trying to ditch the chaperone and circle every conversation back to sex and his little “seduction” game.
And it reveals subconsciously that he wants the women in his life to know their numbers and care about them and have them work to “improve” themselves in his standing by being more game to get freaky with him or otherwise give him things he wants. We saw that with Roz when he tries to sell her “being seen as a ten” in exchange for ending class early as well as him bumping Roz up a point because she wanted to film their time together.
This is something he wanted to get out, but only in fits and starts and individually with the women so they couldn’t coordinate their anger about the system, but instead just feel pressure to fulfill the self fantasy he’s constructed. He wanted Joyce to one day know her number to know it was a 0- and have that serve as “punishment” to her, so she would know how he hurt her.
But he wasn’t ready for the compassionate and calm reading of that. For himself to be psychologically analyzed and deconstructed like this. For it to come off so obviously as a post-hoc attempt at pettiness that clearly changed (and was the only thing to change*) after the date.
*Like that puts a lie to his list as any actual useful resource to anyone other than the sad boner diary it is. He doesn’t put in information a person actually seeking to date these people would need to know. What their personalities are like, red flags (like “Warning: she’ll bring violent person to date who’ll punch you repeatedly if you say sex stuff”), or anything useful. Just immediate physical boner reaction and where to find them and he only goes back to fiddle with the number because that’s all that matters to him.
Wow, I actually never considered the idea of Joe wanting this to get out at some point. It makes a lot of sense
Panels 4: This is an amazing line, because it cuts so powerfully and it’s just so calmly given. Like, given Joyce’s position outside and recent events, I’m imagining she’s had to deal with some Dorothy and maybe Amber stuff these last couple of days, so this is just a drop in the bucket and so she genuinely asks what she was when she was being hunted. What was the numbers Joe used to target her and see her as something to bang.
And it’s also a partial acknowledgment of the wrong she did in the date. That that was an action that hurt him.
But it’s also terrifying for Joe. Because talking about hurt rather than hurt sublimated into treating women like shit is scary for him, feels unmasculine, feels dangerous. He’ll literally run away rather than have an honest conversation than acknowledge that he’s just as much of a bag of emotions as anyone else
And the dark shadow over all of this is why she was targeted and what her number actually was, because we as an audience know it:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/corrupt/
She was a “four” he saw as repressed and as someone he could “lightly pressure” into becoming a wild explosion of lust as a “ten”, as something he could literally fix with his penis as he tells Sarah, pushing her to “fulfill” her role in womanhood as a quite literal thing that gets fucked by a man.
And he tried to dress this up all real fancy and in sex-positivity clothes*, but this is the logic of corrective rape.
*There’s a common strain of awful “sex-positive” dudes that try and argue that sex-positivity is really about always being down to fuck them and willing to do anything sexually no matter one’s boundaries and to do anything else is to be “frigid and repressed”. I blame Dan Savage a lot for this, as his GGG “ideal relationship partner” got turned into a weapon a lot by shitty young dudebros who say it as a great way to push on their sexual partners’ boundaries. Which is why these days there’s a number of asexuals who have bad connotations with sex positivity entirely because of being targeted by guys like this when they tried to do activism in those spaces.
That there is something wrong with a person not openly seeking sex with men or seeming “frigid”, that them being asexual or lesbian or having boundaries as to what they are interested in doing is a sign of their failure to fulfill their roles as women. As something needing to be “fixed” with “seduction” and pressure, because a woman who does not live her life in service to bringing pleasure to a man is a “waste”.
It’s something I’ve had to deal with a lot as an asexual woman who does not sleep with or date men. Because we’re holy grail targets for these kinds of men. A sort of proof of manliness above all other proofs. And I’ve been told to my face many different ways how I was a “waste” or a “tease” or various slurs for sexually active women or sex workers, because of my refusal to provide them that holy grail experience of “turning me”.
His logic for going after her was violence and so he can’t stand actually talking about it, because he knows that it will reveal the enormity of his bad behavior and duplicity of his actions. Even here, he can’t own even the smallest part of his shit.
Panel 5: And so he runs, making a lie of his guilt-tripping of Danny earlier and avoiding having to deal with any of the reality of his actions and the harm they cause. And that especially must hit home for Danny. Like, Joe made him physically drag him out of the foyer even though he clearly outweighs him, but now he runs on his own power, like he could have then when Danny tried to set a boundary of leaving him to deal with his own mess.
That is how little Joe thinks of him and their friendship.
And the worst part is Danny knows what Joe did. And I wouldn’t blame him for a second if he answered for Joe, revealing the intentional horrific awfulness of his initial targeting of her, not that I see that as something he’ll be willing to do.
And that’s going to be the biggest effect here I feel. That Danny can no longer feign ignorance to the harm his friend has been causing and how much that bothers him. And it might mean the official end to a friendship that has been getting increasingly more rocky so far in college.
“*There’s a common strain of awful “sex-positive” dudes that try and argue that sex-positivity is really about always being down to fuck them and willing to do anything sexually no matter one’s boundaries and to do anything else is to be “frigid and repressed”. I blame Dan Savage a lot for this, as his GGG “ideal relationship partner” got turned into a weapon a lot by shitty young dudebros who say it as a great way to push on their sexual partners’ boundaries. Which is why these days there’s a number of asexuals who have bad connotations with sex positivity entirely because of being targeted by guys like this when they tried to do activism in those spaces.”
Don’t forget to blame the “Free Love” crowd from the late 60s and early 70s too. Far too often, “free love” meant that (generic) you simply must be willing to have sex, whether you actually wanted to or not. That attitude kept surviving, with GGG merely being its latest iteration.
Definitely!
“Free Love” for some assholes meant you had to have sex with any leftist guy who asked in whichever combination. Lots of women ignored their boundaries not to be though of as bourgeois, lots of guys put a lot of pressure on the women. And lots of people experimented because it suddenly was normal to experiment – with mixed results.
It was a large step away from “sex isn’t something you talk about and only do in marriage”, going to the opposite extreme, and you can’t say that as a society, we really found a good synthesis yet. Though it boggles the mind that fundies have managed to combine the two in the most misogynistic combination possible.
Y-up.
So far, one of the better societies in this regard seems to be the Mosuo, an ethnic minority in China.
There, it’s the women who will invite the men they like over to their house. The man is free to accept or decline as he wishes; though generally, he will usually have shown some interest in the woman for her to make the invitation.
In addition, no monogamous marriages. Instead, the households are such that people usually live (when not being invited) in the same household throughout their lives; and the children is not reared by their biological father, but instead their mother, uncles, and aunts.
Currently, the main problem is (of course) rich Western and Chinese men who wants to “explore” this “exotic” society. And also Chinese pimps; because without the same hang-ups on sex, said women are easier to persuade to become sex workers. Both of these things have led to an increase in STDs, something this society used to be free of.
Interesting! Does the father get to have any relationship with the kids?
Not really, but he is instead likely to help raising his sister’s children, so it evens out. And in a way, this actually makes more sense, biologically speaking. Because while you can never be absolutely certain that the child you think you are the father of is yours*, you can be 100% certain that your sister’s children will carry some of your genes.
And like I said, those are large households, so the kid will in fact probably get more socialization in its early years than a typical “nuclear family” child. And socialization is extremely important in those early years.
*Which is most of the reason for the whole “women are a husband’s property” bullshit, courtesy of the bible (and other sources); to make sure that the father-son line (you know, the only line that matters) is “pure”.
Neat! And yes, that bit of fuckery was well entrenched in Western marital standards for exactly those reasons..
By the way, this information was presented to me by quite a good internet friend of mine, as he personally made a month-long -real- visit to their culture, not for the dirty intentions, but because he truly wanted to -learn- about them, trying to keep as many of his own biases in check as possible (he knows he has them, so he’s not pretending he doesn’t).
And he ended up thinking that this was one of the most friendly and family-oriented societies he’d ever seen (and he’s been around a fair bit of the world). And he’s written about them too. Search up “John Lombard” and Mosuo” if you have a mind.
An extra bit of awful added to this might be Joyce’s fundie upbringing. In those kinds of religions a woman is Taught that she is supposed to fulfil her role as man’s sex toy. That this is what God expects of her.
Yeah, the main difference between fundie “chaste wife” and “free love”/GGG is mainly about who the woman must have sex with. Neither scenario really allows her to simply say no.
There’s also the small matter of how the free love and GGG rhetoric threatens social sanctions at worst and the fundie rhetoric jumps straight to an eternity of torture. Both are way out of line and need to be stomped down hard, but they’re not equivalent.
The ache is that so soon after his sickening toxic “upgrade” shit, she so completely broke his system. She shows up all pretty and friendly (… and chaperoned), and while it turned into a dumpsterfirenight of complementarian bullshitpunching, she was still kind, thoughtful Joyce at the end of the night and he was (and still is) massively unprepared for it and unable to cope.
The… next day?, he literally reduces her to her genitals, and after the expected and inevitable we get the unexpected: Joyce is something he’s unable to cope with, and he might as well have been throwing toys at her head.
(and I love the contrast there: Walky juveniles out at Dorothy yet they both find some pretty solid happiness, while Joe MRAs out at Joyce and winds up in a pile of ugly.)
If only Joe would, y’know, maybe, have talked with someone (Danny) about, y’know, his feelings, he might just have found himself in a healthier place.
Quick, someone more talented than me make up situation-appropriate alternate lyrics to “The Reynolds Pamphlet”.
Oh, shit! Lemme get back to you on that…
Here you go! Lets hope I post this right.
————————————————–
[The student body]
The Rosenthal List
[Mandy, Rachel, Joyce]
Have you read this?
[Joyce, Danny]
Student Joseph Rosenthal disregards women’s volontaire
And he wrote it down right there.
[Rachel]
Asshole.
[Joe]
I’ve been accused
of demeaning women, [Roz]
and predation, and predation
for purposes
of a sexual frustration.
My real crime was [Roz]
failing to secure my private Do List Your hit list!
From the prudish b****es always
making everything personal.
[Danny, Joyce, Dorothy]
Joe!
[Joe]
All I did was rate attractiveness.
It’s an objective ranking system.
[Agatha]
“Objective”?
[Asma]
“Objective”.
[Roz]
“Objective”!
[Danny, Joyce, Dorothy]
Joe!
[Joe]
And most of you are really only mad
‘cause you weren’t a ten.
[Danny]
No…
[Student body]
BOO…
[Dorothy]
Have you read this?
[Frat douches]
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
That’s one less guy to worry about.
That’s one less fight to worry about!
[Joyce]
I came as soon as I heard.
[Danny]
Whaaaaat?
[Joe]
Joyce?
[Dorothy]
Outside, on her own?
[Readers]
Damn!
[Joe]
Oh great, another
girl here to bash me
for one miscue
[Joyce]
I just want to talk to you…
[Readers]
Ooooooooh…
[Joyce]
I want to trust that you’re truly a friend of mine;
that you don’t mean any harm from these arbitrarily assigned
numbers. I know that it must be hard to trust in love [Joe]
when you know only a relationship that was devoid thereof! N-no!
But is this who you are?
Or just an unhealed scar?
Am I wrong for trusting so far?
God, please let me trust that far…
[Frat douches]
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
Well he’s never gettin’ any again
(never gettin’ any again)
That’s one less guy to worry about.
That’s one less fight to worry about!
[Roz] [Frat douches, Female Students]
Heeeeey. Well he’s never gettin’ any again
At least people
know, now, (never gettin’ any again)
who they’re
dealing with. Well he’s never gettin’ any again
[Danny] (never gettin’ any again)
Heeeeey.
At least maybe Well he’s never gettin’ any again
now, he’ll
learn some (never gettin’ any again)
empathy.
[Frat douches] [Female Students]
That’s one less guy to worry about. That’s one less douche to worry about.
That’s one less fight to worry about! That’s one less threat to worry about!
[Student body]
The Rosenthal List.
Have you read this?
[Danny, Joyce, Dorothy]
You ever see somebody ruin their own life?
[Readers]
His poor [future] wife.
Welp, it’s jumbled. I hope it’s still more or less intelligible.
I had to break out the original song to listen and it made sense to me 🙂
You are a marvel! I wasn’t expecting the entire song, let alone specific roles and singers! 😀
Willis usually surprises us, so I’ll just try and preempt it and say; will this lead to Joyce and Danny having an extended conversation and possibly getting together?
Not saying it will happen, but Danny just had his latest partner mysteriously vanish from our view. His greatest feature is back. And Joyce has been through a lot of characterization so it doesn’t feel as wonky.
I don’t ship it, but Joe being the guy inadvertently responsible for setting up Danny with someone is amusing to me, since he’s actively tried a few times.
Well, there are reasons that Joyce/Danny would be a decent partnership from a compatibility standpoint, if not a storyline/plot (not that I expect it to happen)..
Danny is not a ‘threatening’ individual, in many ways he is a nice guy (remember his reason for wanting to help Sal with her math), he’s not likely to pressure Joyce into sex, he’s nominally a christian (although lapsed), and his interest in certain items of pop-culture would help Joyce build on her interests.
On the other side, Joyce would provide a more stable relationship for Danny than Amazigirl/Amber. And while she does have the fundamentalist background, her acceptance of Becky’s sexuality means she might be OK with Danny being bi (as long as he doesn’t act on things).
Wasn’t there a strip that had multiple scenes, one where Joyce was talking about marriage, and there was a cutaway that included Danny?
Don’t forget that Joyce has also done a 180 on Ethan and tried to set him free to go back with his own kind*, as well as going with him to a meet-and-greet for questioning individuals.
Still not quite sure if she’s up to date on the fact that one can like both men -and- women, though. But still, that shouldn’t be the biggest hurdle.
*She did then mention that her vocabulary needs updating, and I do believe her intentions were good when she said this. Oh Joyce, you pure pure child of summer that are so adorable when you mess up.
In “Codependent”, Dorothy and Joe were talking about Danny, and there was a cutaway to Joyce.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/02-uphill-from-here/codependent/
Also, Happy Trans March everyone!
YAY! <33333
I was gonna go “But it’s June…?” then caught myself when I realized “Wrong context of “march” silly boy.”
I had the exact same reaction. I think it’s because march was capitalized (as March) in that sentence, so you implicitly parse it as a proper noun.
Out of context, Joyce’s last line sounds deliciously emo.
I imagined Joe scuttling off like Zoidberg, tbh.
I’m shipping them so hard
Joyce is rated 0-. A 10 that’s gotten rotated around by endless confusion and bewilderment on the part of the score-keeper.
And Willis: Massive props for this strip, panels 3-4 in particular. You can feel the breeze and the almost soft openness at play. I fully understand why Joe is fleeing that. (Because he’s an idiot. You are an idiot, Joe.)
A Wild JOYCE appears!
JOYCE uses EMOTIONAL HONESTY
JOE’s DEF is lowered
JOE runs away!
Oh Schniz and Fondue, Joe’s getting more depth!
where did you come from, where did you go
don’t fucking rate women, cotton-eyed Joe
I can’t breathe XD
haha XD
At this point I see Joe as the biggest jerk in the strip, not Mike. Mike plays the jerk, but he’s genuinely done nice things for the people around him, and half the time it seems like his Machiavellian plans work out to their benefit. Not something you can say for Joe.
In another universe. In the Dumbiverse, Mike’s plans have resulted in or planned to cause:
1: Ethan crawling back into the closet.
2: Breaking up a happy couple by needling at their insecurities.
3: Deliberately reminding his alleged friends of their most horrible experience to no benefit.
4: Trying to deliberately seduce Ethan to destroy his self-esteem and wound Danny.
I think Joe is worse, but only because of how MANY people he’s hurt in this way.
THIS.
Mike’s plans have never benefited anyone, except in failure, and even if he was actually helping people on purpose, the way he does it would still make him an awful person.
If he actually had the insight to play those kinds of manipulative games with people successfully, there would be thousands of ways to put such knowledge to use that would be less cruel
Eh. He got Walky the pants, helped pull Ethan out a funk, shut Joyce’s mom down to cover for Becky. Much of what he does is incredibly problematic, but not all of it.
He bought Walky pants because he knew it would cause tension between him and Dorothy.
He helped Ethan out of a funk as part of a plan to seduce him just to mess with his head.
Walky helped deflect Joyce’s mom. When Mike answered, he may have made it MUCH worse, almost certainly adding to Carol’s desire to pull Joyce out of school later on.
The only intentionally positive thing he has done was to decline Joyce’s invite to her party, acknowledging that “being nice” was not in the cards. There’s hints of something less malicious under the surface, but he hasn’t really done anything showing that it’s the case.