I’m just friendshipping them, not romantically. Not saying it can’t/won’t happen, but I think it’s good for Joe to have a genuinely, platonic friendship with a woman.
Temple is a Homestuck.
Moirails are two trolls (usually) that act as each others… watch-dogs, you may say. For example, a pessimistic misantrophe and a manic pixie-dreamgirl were Moirails, the pessimist would keep the other girl out of trouble her idealism would bring her into, while the idealist would teach the pessimist to cheer up and trust in people, now and again. Basically, two different people that support each other.
♠-romance, or black romance, is like romantic love, but based on hate, instead of love. Romantic hate, basically. Imagine it like some sort of intense rivalry.
I also didn’t realize he got his ass kicked that many times. Hearing Joyce list it makes it sound like he’s Wile E. Coyote or some other Loony Toon character.
Well… technically she was never alive when she came into the comic, same as with Dana’s mother mentioned below. So her status to us has always been “not alive”.
Is it just me, or is Joe a lot more of a whole dude now, not just a one-sided sex idiot? It’s like maybe he really just doesn’t quite get it, and he actually DOES have as much ability and need to learn and grow as a person and a character as Joyce. Maybe they can be friends after all.
I agree. That was the whole thing with him. He knew he was shallow, and was OK with that, because he truly believed he wasn’t hurting anyone. He thought the juvenile sex list was funny and generally many times, complimentary. Once Joyce shoved it in his face how he could be doing serious harm, it clicked. I just hope it sticks.
Yeah, from his view, he was being simple and lighthearted, to avoid deep feelings, thinking it wouldn’t/couldn’t hurt anyone. He was wrong, and now sees it. He has a sad.
I’m just glad the characters look like they might become close like they did in the Walkyverse, it was sad to see it not be a thing. It’s taking a while to get there, but, it’s getting there.
I’m really proud of both of them, they’ve really come a long way since the beginning. Joe isn’t as much of a sexist objectifying ass, and Joyce is learning to accept people. Also, to all the people shipping this, I’m like straddling the fence there. Eh. Sure.
*nods* Keep along this path Joe and things will be fine. I must say that this arc has been my absolute favorite in the entire Willis verse. The sheer RAW emotions on display as well as how the characters breakdown like this to eachother shows an understanding of human character that I very rarely see in art.
. . . I too am now a bit sad that Joe can not get his swings in at DRUGGO McSTABBED now, I am very glad that their, Joe’s and Joyce’s, masks have broken and confided in one another.
“There might be more people you know… who you just don’t know about.”
Some twenty of those close to me have been assaulted or raped over the years that I know of. I know there’s more, and I’m continually astounded at the blindness of those who think it doesn’t happen, who join in with the objectification, who spread around the jokes about rape.
That last panel is such a beautiful illustration of the first steps towards being an ally it’s hard to type without choking up.
I think pretty much everyone I know who has, at some point in their life, been perceived as female has been sexually harassed or assaulted, plus a number of those who have always been perceived as male.
Something I tell men to make them think: “If you don’t know at least three women who have been raped, it’s because they’re not comfortable telling you about it.”
There was a post on LiveJournal *ages* ago where a woman recounted being at a dinner party and some guy was insisting the X of Y women have been assaulted statistic can’t be true. (I want to say it was something like 2 or 3 out of 4 or 5, it’s 1/6 right now according to RAINN.)
So this jerk goes, “Watch this: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5” counting the women at the table, as if that proved the stat was wrong.
The author glared at him and said, “You don’t know half of what you think you know” and one of the other women he pointed at said, “Yeah, half sounds about right”.
I’m really baffled at what people assume they would just *know* about a person.
in high school while hanging out with my friends, i mentioned being sexually abused as a kid. one of my friends stopped and said “why have all my friends been abused?!”
yup. 🙁 heck, beating kids used to be considered normal and healthy; now it’s against the law. humans are kinda fucked up, we’re just slowly learning how to be less fucked up. and hopefully passing those lessons on.
God, I… I just really love Joe and Joyce’s relationship. Whether it ends up being romantic or not, I genuinely enjoy their interactions. It’s clear Joe cares for Joyce as a friend and as a human being (which is certainly something, for him), and it’s also becoming apparent that Joyce is helping Joe to become a better person. From the scenes way back when Joe was texting Joyce advice on how to deal with her family to now, with Joe losing his composure and Joyce telling him what happened to her, it’s becoming more apparent that these two usually end up showing their weaknesses to each other. I really can’t wait to see how their friendship develops in this comic.
The two do honestly look out for each other in subtle ways. Joe is one of those few people that actually accommodate Joyce’s pickiness (I don’t think he’s actually made fun of her for it the same way Walky or Sarah has).
Yes! I don’t care if it ends up in romance or not either, but I really like how real and human they feel when they interact. (Outside of that hilarious first date, but that’s excused because hilarious.)
I feel as though their relationship could work either way, whether it be romance or friendship! Neither is greater or lesser than the other, they’re just different ‘paths’ these two could take, like a fork in the road. No matter what happens though, I’m looking forward to seeing how they affect each other in the future–I totally agree with how real they feel when interacting, it’s one of my favorite things about reading them. They’re both people that have had these strong, unwavering, UNHEALTHY beliefs for the longest time that they’ve never had to question until they, pardon the phrase, began to ‘come (dumb) of age.’ They’re like mirror images of each other in a way, and that really became apparent to me when they started to bond over Joyce’s family drama and Joe giving her advice.
This is getting really long, I got carried away. My point is I love these two. They’re messed up but they’re learning from each other and becoming better people as they do so. That’s incredible to me.
Big difference between Joe and Gashface McDouchebag: Joe relies on his wit and charm, and when given a definite “No”, shrugs his shoulders and moves on to another prospect.
Gashface McDouchebag relies on drugs from the start, taking away his target’s ability to say “No” in the first place.
One deserves a slap in the face. The other, several years behind bars and national recognition as a sexual predator.
“Big difference between Joe and Gashface McDouchebag: Joe relies on his wit and charm, and when given a definite “No”, shrugs his shoulders and moves on to another prospect.”
Sarah first saw Joe ask Joyce out weeks ago in comictime, at which point Sarah sussed out Joe’s character. Then there was the exchange in the cafe starting below.
After the “mission abandoned” statement from Joe in the above-mentioned arc, weeis later atGalasso’s, Joe continues to have no filter before saying things.
I still read that as being deliberate on Joe’s part to get the attention off Sarah and generally stop the really awkward pause in the conversation. He may or may not have noticed how uncomfortable Sarah was, but he certainly made the right call by directing everyone’s attention to him. There were probably better conversational options he could have chosen from, but it definitely worked.
My internal reaction in Sarah’s place would be a combination of Medium “WTF are you saying?” and Strong “Thank you for opening your mouth”.
We’ll see if Joe figures this out re Sarah. That’s pretty high on his list of “learn to treat women like people”, not that she is obligated to give him a chance.
Sure, Joe’s not NEARLY as bad as Ryan, but “he’s not a literal rapist” is a SHAMEFULLY low bar, and one can clear it with room to spare while still being an awful person.
Joe needed to do better, and now that it seems he understands, he’s got a good chance of managing it.
Parroting what the others have said, the entire point of this interaction is to highlight that while Joe is not a rapist, the way he views women around him is not materially different from Ryan. His decision not to rape women stems from an objection to rape, a sense that rape is bad, rather than respecting the basic humanity of the women he is objectifying. “Not technically a rapist” is not high praise.
Except, if he didn’t respect women at all the argument that ‘You’ve been accidentally hurting women and I’m one of them’ wouldn’t have done anything, or if he only cared about Joyce would have been brushed off as a that’s just you thing.
He had to care about women on some level for this argument to even potentially hit, as proven by the thousands of men who hear these things and never change their minds much less immediately show a turn around like Joe did.
He genuinely thought his actions where harmless, found out he was really wrong and had accidentally hurt someone he likes, then (apparently, there isn’t proof yet) decided to change his behavior.
I think that Joe really wants to believe he’s not a bad guy. But- and this is important- he doesn’t care. He actively tries really, really hard to not care, because it’s safer. Because that way, he believes “nobody really gets hurt”.
But trying to actively not care about people involves actively trying to not think about people AS people. And how can you respect a person if you refuse, constantly and adamantly, to think of them AS a person?
He doesn’t want to “really” hurt people but he’s spent a long time thinking that that’s enough. Now he knows that he can do harm by refusing to be aware, and refusing to care, and that’s major.
If he’d had any amount of respect for women worth mentioning, then women telling him to stop would’ve been enough. It’s not as if he had no way of knowing his actions weren’t as harmless as he thought before now. He just refused to listen when he was told.
He cared enough about Joyce (very much despite himself) that she finally was able to get through to him, but ONLY when he found out his behavior was ESPECIALLY harmful to her.
She even had to explain that he can’t know if a women he’s talking to might have been through the same thing just to get him to extend that realization to other women, because “this attitude is harmful towards ALL women” wasn’t enough to trip Joe’s “oh shit this is actually bad” threshold.
He didn’t take his attitude AS FAR as Ryan, but it was the same kind of animal.
We also don’t know why he thinks rape is bad. Is it because it inflicts lifelong mental and emotional scars upon those who are subjected to it, because he believes sex is supposed to be mutually enjoyable or because he believes someone who is a ‘real man’ doesn’t need to resort to rape and should have women flocking to them in droves because of their sexual prowess, thus proving their masculine superiority to those who can’t get laid?
Which ties nicely into a survey done a few years back which found a significant number of college age men would admit to doing things that met the legal definition of rape, as long as the question didn’t use the word rape.
Though it would be interesting to see if Joe’s assumed persona would have led him to claim some of the same things, in the same way he claimed drunken threesomes that he hadn’t done.
I want to stand up and cheer for that last panel. And this comic. And David Willis. And all y’all who’re here supporting this comic. And also Chris Evans.
That last sentence seemed kind of OOC for Joyce, like too formal for me to think of it as a real sentence that she would say? sorry for nitpicking, that took me out of it for a second.
other stuff – I like Joe a lot. Like, I think I wouldn’t enjoy his company IRL because he’d hit on me and I wouldn’t get to know anything else about him except the feeling that he wanted to have sex with me, and that sucks. But I like reading about him a lot, and I like that he is genuinely kind and caring, just misguided and ignorant and negative about a lot of things. I’m excited for his character to get to do more interesting things than just lay ladies all the time. Like, http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/stufflikethis/ made me really happy in a lot of ways
Seemed sufficiently IC to me. i can see a Churchy Type getting linguistically formal, particularly on such a serious and personal topic. As for the syntax, I’d expect her to have been doing some reading, between her gender studies class and Becky coming out to her/everyone and all the fallout from that.
Yup. And a lot of stuff’s gone down for her in Leslie’s class (confrontation with Roz, learning the statistical context for Becky’s homelessness, and confrontation with Robin come fairly quickly to mind), and picking up terminology from it is surely entirely in-character.
Just jumping in to agree. It DOES feel a little jarring, but I don’t think that’s because it’s OOC. I think it’s just such a formal and specific way of speaking that it made me pause for a moment- but if a line had to make me pause, I’m okay with it being this one!
Yeah it felt a little too on-the-nose with modern feminist academic language, unless Leslie just had a lesson on it when we weren’t looking. She’s homeschooled and only has been here a few months.
I love the level of trust these two have in each other. Somehow they know they can reveal their secrets.
I’m sure Joe has never so much as hinted that he feels so worthless, and this is the first time Joyce has told anyone what happened to her. The only people who know are those who were there and Sal. She just said to Joe what she’s never been able to say to anyone.
And she said it for *his* sake, to make him understand.
He trusts her because she’s the only one who heard between the lines when he ranted about marriage, the only one who heard the pain behind it. And the only one who ever asked him for help like that.
Joe’s really taking this to heart. Panel 1 may have been “I…I didn’t know” but by panel 3 he’s definitely thinking either “My god, what have I done?” or “If I keep doing what I’ve been doing I’m just as bad as my father when it comes to hurting people”.
And something tells me that deep down, he feels guilty about not being out on those steps on Wednesday, when Dorothy was in danger. At the very least, even if he’ll never admit it, he was probably scared out of his mind when he heard what happened. Because he came this close to losing someone he counts as a friend forever because of Slashface.
You mean Ross. Blaine hasn’t been charged with anything, which is going to be a real soul-crusher for Amber when she realizes she could’ve reported a kidnapping and put him in prison if she hadn’t gone herself.
She really couldn’t have. Danny went with him willingly. Blaine didn’t turn nasty until Amber showed up.
If it had been the cops instead, he would have cooperated and likely painted Amber as crazy and paranoid for calling them.
This is a particularly lovely comic to read today, politically. It’s nice to hang out in a world where Joyce’s totally apt and baddass account of her experience matters to Joe, where she changes the world a little bit at a time.
Something that nobody else has mentioned yet. Ryan “McStabbo” was a scumbag that preyed upon women. However, everyone that has taken a serious shot at him has been female. He has a permanent visible scar from one of his intended victims (Joyce), he got beaned with a baseball bat by her roommate (Sarah), he got dropkicked by a female campus crusader (Amazing Girl), and was finally put into the hospital after he drew a knife on 2 women by Amber, and she used HIS knife to do it. Every single person that has done him real damage has been female.
And that is EXACTLY what he deserves as a minimum. Now we just need the DA to prosecute him, and the judge to give him a meaningful and harsh sentence. Two things that do not happen often enough in real life.
I imagine he’ll return to that, but this was relevant to what he said, Joyce saying that he does matter and so do his actions. I imagine, hopefully, she will talk to him about those feelings further another time. They do text and actually share pretty intimate thoughts, going by Joyce confiding in him about her parent situation, something I don’t think we’ve even seen her do with Dorothy, Sarah, or Walky.
Look, just because we’re about to commit to doing the greatest revenge with the intention of breaking their psyches into shattered pieces across the universe from which there will be no hope for anything but the release that comes with total oblivion doesn’t mean you have to be mean about it.
I’d order you a pizza just to be a smartass, but that would require me to dox you first. Also money for pizza, and let’s be honest, if I order you a pizza, I’m gonna want one, and I just can’t afford two pizzas, right now.
Further to my previous: When it comes to fictional revenge, I am a disciple of Lex Luthor and David Xanatos: Get your enemy to destroy themselves in the most public and humiliating and yet non-lethal way possible. More importantly, make sure that it can’t be traced back to you. Then simply watch them self-destructing before the world media before go back to instructing your broker to buy up their now near-worthless assets to add to your own empire.
“The reason I am smiling is because I won an irreversible victory six moves ago. Now I’m just humouring you and waiting to find out just how long it’s going to to take you to realise it.”
I am just picturing Danny getting a turn by ukelele to the nads, but he DID get to spit on Blaine, so I mean, he got some cathartic payback in, too.
I’m glad Joe didn’t get defensive and just, listened to Joyce. That was big of him, and hopefully, he’ll be doing more listening going forward. Rise to the occasion, dude.
This strip makes me hopeful that Joe will become better than how he was before, though he already was way better than Ryan in that he took no for an answer.
As I’ve said before, he was not that good at that. Sarah in particular was someone he did -not- stop making passes, despite her repeatedly telling him no.
Yup. And I think Joe’s now already better than he was before.
Hoping here that shitty-objectification-lists and shitty-harassing-behaviour are two of the things that he’ll be thinking about from now on in the sense that Joyce has just schooled him with.
Seems significant to me that he’s walking away with her, not walking away from her.
Yeah, he’d almost take no for answer, provided it was screamed at him and came with threats. But he’d still come back and try again later.
I’m sure he’d never go beyond that – he’d keep making passes, but wouldn’t escalate that into anything physical (or drugs or anything like that.) But I’m sure of that for out of character reasons. For someone he’s actually interacting with, not respecting that first No is a huge red flag that he wouldn’t respect any No.
Joe is doing REALLY good. He listens, he understands, he does nothing of the aggressive pushback he has done before.
So it is a bit frustrating that he immediately falls back to the masculine script of “you were hurt? I WILL PUNCH SOMEONE!” rather than “You were hurt? I will change my actions.”
It’s very understandable, it’s very common and it’s not something terrible or anything, but Joe needs to get away from the toxic masculinity script, and now – with his defenses down – would have been a good opportunity. But I have good hope for him.
Well, in the first panel, he was basically “You were hurt? I should have changed my actions.”
Plus, he mainly wanted to join in because Joyce also just mentioned all the other violence commited on gashface. Can’t really blame anyone of any gender for wanting in on that, eh?
But yeah, there are other options. And that’s what Joyce is telling him about.
Joe already acknowledges that he wouldn’t have done what he did had he known of Joyce’s circumstances, and Joyce informs him of how her case isn’t unique and he’s going to encounter more people like her. Joe is asked to think about the circumstances his actions are felt in, and this is the correct process.
On a personal relationship level, one should never apologize before they accept within themselves why their actrions were wrong. Joe’s gonna have to internalize this experience, and that’s not likely to happen in this encounter. Plus, being disappointed about not getting to punch someone is not a masculinity issue.
Glad I’m not the only one uncomfortable with that whole bit.
It feels like he’s trying to avoid thinking about the uncomfortable parts of his behavious, by shifting the topic to someone he knows he’s better than.
So it is a bit frustrating that he immediately falls back to the masculine script of “you were hurt? I WILL PUNCH SOMEONE!” rather than “You were hurt? I will change my actions.”
Because hes a man and thats how most men are (or should be), the defender, the protector and as such its our most important (and best) defining feature, to protect our women (and all women* for that matter)
Punching someone in defense of others is something that can happen only at the time its needed but changing your actions can happen over a longer amount of time
Real men protect women not harm them so good on Joe for that, it’ll also likely please Joyce that she has another larger male she can trust to help protect her plus Joe can take the learning from Joyce about changing his actions but he shouldn’t lose that protective streak because its a good and positive trait and should be encouraged
*Substitute whatever gender you feel appropriate here
All of that is vaguely uncomfortable for all sorts of gender role issues, but to focus on Joe: Joe always would have punched Ryan, had he known or been present at the right time. And then likely turned it into an excuse to hit on Joyce or someone else.
Before this conversation, he still was a potential danger himself – doing harm through his attitude, if not more directly. Even if he could also do the protector role.
Plenty of abusive men also have that protective streak, it’s just focused on what they consider theirs – “their” family, their children, their women. Even if they’re abusing them themselves. In a lot conversations about rape or sexual assault, I often see those who are doing the most deflection and victim blaming switch over to demanding the harshest punishments or boasting about what they would have done when they find a case and a victim that meets their standards for “real rape”.
I think part of the reason theres toxic masculinity is because the west has moved away from defining what a man should be and so to fill the void theres so much wrong ideas out there to replace it with
Take Joe or Ryan as examples, not real men (though Joes pretty close) but would probably think of themselves as such
With billions sure but the fundamental aspect of being a man, protecting and defending, is still a pretty basic one thats easy to carry out by anyone
Take Danny for example, physically weak but still willing to defend and try to help Joe even when a lot of other people would prefer that he ditch him, thats a pretty good example of being a man right there
Because I’m talking about being a man and what men should and shouldn’t do and men, generally speaking, perform better with defined roles and expectations
Men, generally speaking, being stronger than women are better suited to the protector role
Maybe but i see the void being filled by the PUA or MGTOW movement, goings on at college fraternities, crazy excess in the financial world etc etc, men looking at the wrong role models for becoming a man
As an example we know Joe is a fundamentally good person, that the potential is there and its rally close to the surface but what was his example of being a man, his father, his lying, cheating father and yet Joe in some way still tried to protect women (like in a really bad way obviously)
Extra zeros in a bank account, the latest sports car, “bros before hoes”, maybe the problem isn’t that the west has moved away but that the pendulum (for lack of a better word) has moved too far away
I honestly have no idea what you’re trying to tell me, right now. I’ve had plenty of “real men”, as defined by you above, try to be a role model to me. Every last one of them has turned out to be a pathetic, whiny little bongo, with maybe one exception.
Just yesterday, I came had an example of your “real man” up in my face, furious, about two seconds away from laying me out, because I dared to contradict him in the most minor of ways. He’s a strong guy, works a physically strenuous job, has security installed for the house.
That’s 1:1 the “protector” role you defined, and he’s still a perpetual victim, so insecure in his own manhood that he can’t even handle the slightest lack of ass-kissing. That he’s willing to physically beat me for daring to say I have a name. So, respectfully, FUCK your definition of a “real man”. Money, frat houses, and pendulums be damned.
Well no, I said men protect and defend not attack, if hes attacking over something like that then hes wrong, completely wrong and I’m sorry you had those experiences
I guess I got lucky when I join the army because the NCOs and SNCOs that trained/mentored me did a pretty good job of it
See, I don’t even completely reject the idea that people should defend their own, if able. I just think it’s needlessly shallow to put that up on a pedestal, as if it’s the most important virtue, and anyone who doesn’t or can’t live up to it is somehow lesser.
And I think it’s outright harmful to take that template and apply it to only one gender. That’s kinda part of how we get toxic masculinity in the first place.
now I’m wondering… what, exactly, did the west do that chris73 sees as “moved away from defining what a man should be”? Was it giving women the right to vote, or own property, or work alongside men? Was it abolishing slavery? Gay rights? Anti-discrimination laws?
Because it’s still not safe for a man to wear a skirt in a lot of places. We have blue MAN soap so that men don’t have to worry about accidentally buying girl-soap. We have so many ridiculous cultural stigmas for men to navigate… how is our culture not defining what a man should be?
Shit, ya got me. This entire thread has devolved into nonsense, just like they always do when toxic masculinity is remotely questioned. Once the supply of boxes and definitions runs out, it’s always down to non sequiturs and tangents.
Problem is, while this is about the best take on traditional gender roles, it’s still packed with so much crappy baggage. “Man should be the protector” quickly leads to “Women need to be protected”, which leads to “Woman need a man to protect them”, which leads to “Men must control women, to protect them”.
It also leads to those men less suited for the “protector” role – those smaller and weaker (or less aggressive?) being treated as lower status.
Beyond all that, if we have so much toxic masculinity in the west because we’ve moved away from “defining what a man should be”, we must have done it long ago because all the toxic masculinity crap goes back basically as far as we can trace – with the possible exception of some of the less changed tribal cultures. Rape, women as property, none of this is at all new. In fact, in many ways, nasty as it is now, it’s far better than it’s been throughout most of history. I’d actually say that what’s really happening is that we’ve changed many of the laws and some expectations and the cultural attitudes are taking a long time to catch up.
To your first paragraph yeah it can, unfortunately, but thats where those men are lacking in male role models, where they come from I don’t know but overall is it better to have men think and act like protectors or not think like protectors?
Well we have the lest amount of toxic masculinity in the world so thats something (its not much but its something), I mean if I had to live as a women then I would definitely choose the west (NZ specifically) I just think that where the west is now could be better
Like for example there seems to be a whole thing (still) of what women need to do to keep themselves safe whereas it should be more of what men should (or rather shouldn’t), do
I dunno I just see things like:
“So it is a bit frustrating that he immediately falls back to the masculine script of “you were hurt? I WILL PUNCH SOMEONE!” rather than “You were hurt? I will change my actions.”
and it winds me up, its a completely legit reaction and yet its perceived as a negative when its not, you can punch someone and then change your actions so its not like its one or the other
because men are stronger, so they must be protectors! but weak men can be protectors too, they can use guns or money instead! but it’s their physical strength that makes them naturally suited to it!
>.<
yeah I'm getting sarcastic, I think I'm done for the day.
@chris73: To the question in the first paragraph: It’s better for men to think and act like protectors than like attackers, but it’s also perfectly fine for them to think and act like nurturers or creators or builders or any other positive role you can think of.
Toxic masculinity has been the norm for hundreds of years. It’s why honor killings and duels are a thing. The idea that to be considered a man, you had to follow certain arbitrary standards.
MRAs and PUAs are just a new form of that, coming about as adherence to traditional gender roles fades away.
There’s no reason why “what a man should be” is something that society needs to define for people. There’s no reason that certain attributes or behavior should be considered positive explicitly for men.
If it’s good to be brave or strong or to protect others, there is absolutely no reason why it would specifically desirable for men to aspire to those qualities and not women as well.
Wow. That’s a lot of Gender essentialist nonsense in one post. What do men who don’t fall into your “Real man” boxes do? Are they fake men? Are they robots?
Women can be and do whatever they want to do and are the equal of men in most respects but physically men and women aren’t equal so its beholden on men to protect women ont harm them
No…it doesn’t, Danny is (probably) physically weaker in comparison to most of the other guys his age in the cast (maybe not Walky) but hes still stronger than most of the female cast his age simply because hes male
your example was Danny defending Joe. Not only is it a man protecting a man, instead of a man protecting a woman, but danny didn’t need any physical strength to do it.
if physical strength is what makes “men” bound to the role of proctector, then men without physical strength aren’t “real” men, and that’s icky.
if it’s not about being physically stronger, if defending with words or guns or anything like that counts, then women shouldn’t be excluded for *their* probable lack of physical strength.
So men aren’t allowed to be weak? There not allowed to be scared. Sounds like exactly the kind of environment that toxic and awful men are generated from. You are trying to suggest we stop Ryan by creating the exact environment that Men like him are created by and thrive in.
“Because hes a man and thats how most men are (or should be), the defender, the protector ”
Here’s an example of the icky implications of that way of thinking: it makes a man who’s been disabled no longer a “real” man, because he’s not physically capable of defending people.
Protecting people is a good thing, and people should do it (provided they’re welcome). Binding that good thing to a specific gender is icky. It shames both men who don’t fit the role, and non-men who do fit it.
Well sure in any situation you can always come up with worst case examples but that doesn’t mean the disabled guy still can’t protect
Can he use fire a rifle, shotgun or pistol?
Can he still pay for security?
Its not helpful, for men, to try to improve men by wanting men to be more like women
Its far more useful to improve men by improving mens actions, such like Joyce is doing right here, shes not berating Joe, shes not belittling Joe, shes leting Joe what he needs to do simply and concisely without changing who Joe is and its working
“Well sure in any situation you can always come up with worst case examples but that doesn’t mean the disabled guy still can’t protect”
then why are women excluded?
“Its not helpful, for men, to try to improve men by wanting men to be more like women”
I don’t understand where this came from. who wants men to be like women? like women in what way? what about men who *are* “like women”?
“Its far more useful to improve men by improving mens actions, such like Joyce is doing right here, shes not berating Joe, shes not belittling Joe, shes leting Joe what he needs to do simply and concisely without changing who Joe is and its working”
That we can agree on. 🙂 Teaching people to be better people, one little step at a time.
If the women wants to be the protector then thats all well and good, some are well suited to it (my wife for example has probably punched over more people thatn I have) but I’m still better at than my wife is because I’m bigger and stronger
No one specifically comes out and says men should be more like women but when people see a negative in normal male behavior and suggest its wrong then its hard to draw the conclusion
hmm. I do believe that men should be allowed to be more like women if they want to, and not shamed for it as if women are lesser creatures, or as if there’s something wrong with not fitting the role someone else assigned you at birth.
I’m not sure I agree with the original thing about Joe’s response being masculine; I think that people of any gender easily fall into thoughts of revenge, it’s just the punching part that’s somewhat gendered.
I think there’s also a false dichotomy, in that when there’s something bad about “normal male behaviour”, that doesn’t always mean the “normal female” behaviour would be any better. I can see how it would look that way, though.
I just think that in trying to provide a positive role for the majority of men, you’re unintentionally hurting the minority, and discouraging/hurting women. You’re trying to make a more comfortable cage, whereas I want to break it open and build something without bars at all.
I’m not if it came across or just got lost in all the following gender essentialism, but I don’t think Joe’s response is necessarily masculine, but it’s still a response I distrust when it comes to rape or sexual assault.
In my admittedly anecdotal experience, those who react to learning of a sexual assault with the loudest protestations of violence – whether that’s “if I’d been there” or threats of revenge – also tend to be those most resistant to believing such allegations in the first place. If it’s personal or so blatant it meets their internal definition for “real rape”, they react in an extreme way. If not, they dismiss or excuse.
People who’s initial reaction is more sympathetic or comforting also tend to be the ones who believe from the start.
Possibly, and this has just come to me, the first group is focused on the attacker, while the second on the one attacked?
So we should try to improve men by teaching them to be more like real men?
And, I suppose, improve women by teaching them to be more like real women? If we’re doing the essentialist gender role thing, I assume women have one too.
According to your standards of what real men (and perhaps real women) should be like. Anyone who doesn’t like or want that role needs to be pushed into taking it anyway, even if they’re not very good at it.
How about we work on making people better* people, in whatever way they’re inclined, rather than forcing them into narrow roles you’ve defined for them.
*”Better” here being loosely defined. If we can teach someone to channel their aptitude for violence into protection, great. If we can teach someone else to be more creative, or more nurturing or whatever, rather than push them into a protective role they don’t like and aren’t naturally good at, isn’t that better?
I’m saying nothing about being a women, only about being a man. If you want to say what it means to be a women go right ahead (probably make more sense than what I’m saying)
It doesn’t have to be if someone says something about being a mean then there must be something about being a women.
I do think the world overall would be a better place if more men did take on the roles as protectors
Sure teach everyone to be better, absolutely, but the average man is stronger than the average woman so it makes more sense for the man to take on the protection role
no, what makes sense is for the protection role to be available to anyone who fits it, and to let those who don’t fit it choose other positive roles without shame.
if you want more protectors, do it by promoting the protector role, sure, but not at the expense of other positive roles.
I have improved by becoming more emotionally open and more willing to listen to other people. Those are both traits that society codes as “more like women.” And you know what? I haven’t been hurt by this. I’m a happier better person and my loved ones are also happier as a result.
Do you know what’s not helpful? People who tell me to “act like a real man.”
I improved myself by becoming mentally and physically stronger that, in turn, led me to becoming less fearful and more confident, that led me to becoming more open and a better person overall
What is really not helpful is telling men (or rather boys) that strength, aggression, the protective instinct, the traditional male attributes if you like aren’t important
I don’t think anyone here is saying that – though “aggression” is at best a double edged sword. Though I’d say that boys get enough emphasis on the strength and aggression part, at the very least. Boyhood is already so focused on physical competition and not being a wimp or girly, that I really don’t think we need to add more to it.
More to channel the existing emphasis in a more protective direction, yes. But not more on “manly” being good in and of itself.
Huh almost as if multiple people managed to improve themselves in wildly different ways and yet still became better as a result. Almost as if there are multiple ways to improve as a person and the idea of any of those things being the “real” way to be a certain gender is entirely ridicules.
Imagine that.
Also your right we shouldn’t be telling young boys aggression is “not important” we should be telling them its actively harmful.
Aggression is actively harmful. Negative traits can be channeled into good things on occasion but the net worth of aggression as a trait is extremely low.
Ryan waited for Joe to leave but decided that the superhero was a bonus because he believes its a mans place to defend his womens or at least its exclusive to men to protect women and if God forbid a woman does it there is something wrong with her and she deserves to be punished.
Toedad decided it was his place to “protect” Becky from not being brainwashed.
So its better to tell a man that there place is to protect than to conquer or rule but its not the message men need.
A real man is a person who adults 99% of the time and considers himself a man.
It’s not just men who should want to protect the people they care about.
It’s not just men who should have ambition or be assertive about what they want.
It’s not just men who should be allowed to be bold or aggressive.
It’s not just men who should be allowed to be strong and athletic.
Men shouldn’t be considered less of a man if they’re not strong and aggressive.
You’re not less of a man if you’re sensitive
You’re not less of a man if you’re gentle
You’re not less of a man if you’re nurturing
You’re not less of a man if you express and talk about your feelings
You’re not less of a man if you cry
Dividing up what qualities are “required” based on gender is not only arbitrary and stupid, but actively harmful for everyone. Even if its only that they’re encouraged more in one gender or the other, it’s fucking harmful.
It encourages everyone to not be an entire person. It leads to people who are unhappy and incomplete. It creates toxic masculinity and reinforces sexism. There is literally no societal benefit to it, except for those men who check all the right boxes naturally, rather than out of peer pressure and shame.
Toxic masculinity isn’t stopping Joe from saying he will change his actions because Joe *already said* he would change his actions, right there in Panel 1.
Joyce the Social Justice Barbarian employed her rage (of a kind) in a way that is devastating to injustice and may have a Social Justice Barbarian acolyte in Joe.
Because in the movie (which I did mostly like) I don’t think dragging was the root problem. I’d have even been game for scouring the shire. It was more making things look like endings that weren’t, so that instead of a plot arc winding things down, everything broke into cascading epilogues.
And in the comic, well, that it would take an unbelievably long epilogue was meant to be the joke? Maybe it didn’t work, I don’t know. There are only so many oranges here to come up with them.
Y’see, Joyce, no matter how hard we try, something that happens to a stranger remains just that: Something that happened to a stranger. To know that something like that happened to someone you know and like personally always has more of an impact. I guess that’s just a fact of human psychology.
On the note of Druggo McStabbed, I got a question for those of you who are following It’s Walky right now.
How do you think Dina compares against Ryan, taking in account these last few days’ strips?
She kept Mike on an altered mind state to take advantage of him, emotionally if not sexually, for several days. No regret, up until it backfired.
See, I don’t get that.
“This is the It’s Walky version of Mike”, like what does that mean? Are you referring to the unspeakably horrific deeds he commits up to the current storyline? Because he actually doesn’t commit any.
The worst thing he ever did was apparently try to maim/kill Joyce’s dog, and I’m not 100% convinced on how serious that was.
What Dina does to Mike in “It’s Wally” is clearly wrong, but that universe is so far away from reality that its hard to treat it the same as DOA or this universe.
As some have mentioned before, Robin and Mike were and still are assholes, but the old universe bent to make their awfulness OK. A more realistic universe doesn’t have that luxury and both characters are forced to own their awfulness.
Reminds me of Rick from Rick and Morty. Objectively awful, but so powerful that the universe is manipulated around him until there is some, albeit flimsy, justification for his behaviour.
I mean, Dina’s pretty terrible in It’s Walky, but I’d probably place her a rung below (above?) Ryan. I can’t support my argument with any sort of personal experience, but I’d definitely rarher have someone basically brainwash me into being a different person than sexually assault me.
So.
I’d like to apologise for my alter’s “that guy” comment. That was poorly worded and hurtful and probably made the whole discussion far more unproductive and messy than it needed to be.
Also, if anyone knows a place that alters can talk more freely that would be appreciated, I haven’t found much yet and the last few days have been… Interesting.
Now I’m gonna run off again because certain parts of my mind are really not happy I’m typing.
i don’t know of any websites that are specifically for that, but my friends with DID tend to make separate twitters or tumblrs for each of their alters. or they just make sure their followers know about their alters, and let em all run one account.
What this mini-arc is reminding us is that Joe is still only 18 or 19 years old. In many ways, he’s still a teen and not an adult and we can’t expect him to react like an adult. He’s still working out what doing ‘adult’ means and I think a lot of it comes as a big surprise to him.
Joe’s behaviour shows what I’ve observed many times with the friends I had when I was a teenager. They had a lot of respect an immense trust in the girls and women who were a part of their personal circle of friends, but viewed almost every other member of the female sex as sex objects. Heavens have mercy on anyone who treated their friends the same way, or as one guy learned after waking up bruised on the sidewalk, call them derogatory slurs.
It’ll probably take more than this for ALL of Gender Studies to sink in, but he’s probably starting to get a grasp on the concepts, now. Sometimes, dumpster fires just need a bucket of water thrown on them, especially if they were raised by dumpster fires.
I feel like in panel four, Joe is going “NOPE can’t process these emotions right now, let’s distract from them with facts instead.”
Which is very normal and common, and frankly he’s had a LOT dropped on him in a short period. He’s going to need time to process.
Not like I’m an authority on the subject or anything but I’ve enjoyed how Willis chooses to depict privilege in his stories when it gets brought up. It’s never this whiny guilt fest that so many writers treat it as; it’s an opportunity for self reflection on the ways our actions impact those around us, and what we can do to change it.
Walky gets yelled at by Sal and instead of buckling over in guilt for “being whiter” he tries to be there for her in ways he hasn’t before, and now we have Joe be forced to confront his actions by someone he’s casually knifed a thousand times over. It’s fantastic storytelling.
Also I want to echo maggneato’s tweets currently in Willis’ feed and I say I sometimes get hit with that “I’m choosing to present as straight/I have passing privilege” thing and it’s bullhocky that needs to be crushed under a boot.
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“why do I miss all the fun”
“you were prolly having SEX”
“…oh yeah”
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(srs tho, this is a good comic)
Worth it?
any1 ship them? i’m totally shipping them. all around the world shipping them!
Definitely shipping them. Shipping them so much.
I’m just friendshipping them, not romantically. Not saying it can’t/won’t happen, but I think it’s good for Joe to have a genuinely, platonic friendship with a woman.
I ♦ ship them. They’d make great moirails for each other (although before this interaction I was ♠ shipping them: times change I guess).
Moirails?
Temple is a Homestuck.
Moirails are two trolls (usually) that act as each others… watch-dogs, you may say. For example, a pessimistic misantrophe and a manic pixie-dreamgirl were Moirails, the pessimist would keep the other girl out of trouble her idealism would bring her into, while the idealist would teach the pessimist to cheer up and trust in people, now and again. Basically, two different people that support each other.
♠-romance, or black romance, is like romantic love, but based on hate, instead of love. Romantic hate, basically. Imagine it like some sort of intense rivalry.
Launched this ship years ago. It’s hit some rough seas, but it’s still afloat.
“And sex and fun doesn’t necessarily go together?”
“Well…”
“Woah, that’s alot of new stuff to think about”
I didn’t realize just how many times he got beat up until Joyce listed it like that.
Still not enough.
prison will amend that
Maybe it’ll sink into his skull that being a sexual predator was a very bad idea.
Unlikely. Cruel and/or violent prison sentences are statistically more likely to cause a person to fall back into crime once they get out.
He wasn’t a sexual predator. He’s messed up, but it was never in the “I take from you and give nothing” way.
Oops….I thought we were talking about Joe not Ryan.
Double oops, didn’t see this before I posted. Phew! I hoped that was the problem.
Whew! Really can’t lie, I pulled a face and was internally just going “whaaaaaat.” So glad it was a misunderstanding!
The inability to edit or delete posts is problematic.
…Ryan is absolutely, objectively, and unarguably a sexual predator.
Well, if it makes anyone feel any better, sexual predators are pretty close to the bottom of the prison pecking-order.
I also didn’t realize he got his ass kicked that many times. Hearing Joyce list it makes it sound like he’s Wile E. Coyote or some other Loony Toon character.
Or Rasputin
I know, right? At first I thought they were building up to a joke about how
un-killable Ryan is.
Though I guess everyone in the comic is technically un-killable.
Except for Becky’s mom.
Oh, COME ON!
Just as the feels were going away..
and Dana’s mom but I guess we never saw her to be as affected by it
Well… technically she was never alive when she came into the comic, same as with Dana’s mother mentioned below. So her status to us has always been “not alive”.
Being “not alive” would technically make her unkillable…
Becky’s mom and Dana’s mom are Flasback Characters, deceased before the story started.
That “orb” painting, if canonical, show that Leland is still alive, for example.
‘Will’ die. Future tense!
And everyone who took a swing at him was a woman! The women are the ones throwing the punches here.
Same. Karma train sure loved to ride over him.
Now Kiss……
Soon.
Not soon. In a long time. They’re good for each other but I feel that a healthy relationship is a lot of emotional growth away.
Now I’m picturing Dina peeking over the edge of a couch, spying on Joe and Joyce.
“Soon.”
I dunno, punching is nice too sometimes. 😛
How it should have gone.
Daw, best friends forever.
“We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides”
Ooooh, well played.
First, Joyce burns him.
Then yesterday, she freezes him with the coldest words, that pierces like icicles.
And now, in the last panel, she heals him.
This series of strips have been especially amazing.
Is it just me, or is Joe a lot more of a whole dude now, not just a one-sided sex idiot? It’s like maybe he really just doesn’t quite get it, and he actually DOES have as much ability and need to learn and grow as a person and a character as Joyce. Maybe they can be friends after all.
Yeah! I love it
I agree. That was the whole thing with him. He knew he was shallow, and was OK with that, because he truly believed he wasn’t hurting anyone. He thought the juvenile sex list was funny and generally many times, complimentary. Once Joyce shoved it in his face how he could be doing serious harm, it clicked. I just hope it sticks.
Yeah, from his view, he was being simple and lighthearted, to avoid deep feelings, thinking it wouldn’t/couldn’t hurt anyone. He was wrong, and now sees it. He has a sad.
I want them to be a thing so bad. Ever since It’s Walky.
It truly is a second chance at the ship.
I’m just glad the characters look like they might become close like they did in the Walkyverse, it was sad to see it not be a thing. It’s taking a while to get there, but, it’s getting there.
And they walked off into the sunset together.
I’m really proud of both of them, they’ve really come a long way since the beginning. Joe isn’t as much of a sexist objectifying ass, and Joyce is learning to accept people. Also, to all the people shipping this, I’m like straddling the fence there. Eh. Sure.
Their ship has been in and out of dry dock, through I don’t know how many strips, and at least two comic universes.
Joyce seems a lot more self-aware than just a few months back too.
*nods* Keep along this path Joe and things will be fine. I must say that this arc has been my absolute favorite in the entire Willis verse. The sheer RAW emotions on display as well as how the characters breakdown like this to eachother shows an understanding of human character that I very rarely see in art.
. . . I too am now a bit sad that Joe can not get his swings in at DRUGGO McSTABBED now, I am very glad that their, Joe’s and Joyce’s, masks have broken and confided in one another.
Good arc
Yeah, but there’s still the second greatest revenge, and that’s round 2 with the bat. :p
(still though this is an unexpected but sweet ending)
The second round comes up when Ryan’s bros come to take their revenge on the girls who beat him up.
Damn, I seem to have dropped all my snarky into the Feels Well.
“There might be more people you know… who you just don’t know about.”
Some twenty of those close to me have been assaulted or raped over the years that I know of. I know there’s more, and I’m continually astounded at the blindness of those who think it doesn’t happen, who join in with the objectification, who spread around the jokes about rape.
That last panel is such a beautiful illustration of the first steps towards being an ally it’s hard to type without choking up.
Again, Willis — thank you.
I think pretty much everyone I know who has, at some point in their life, been perceived as female has been sexually harassed or assaulted, plus a number of those who have always been perceived as male.
Something I tell men to make them think: “If you don’t know at least three women who have been raped, it’s because they’re not comfortable telling you about it.”
There was a post on LiveJournal *ages* ago where a woman recounted being at a dinner party and some guy was insisting the X of Y women have been assaulted statistic can’t be true. (I want to say it was something like 2 or 3 out of 4 or 5, it’s 1/6 right now according to RAINN.)
So this jerk goes, “Watch this: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5” counting the women at the table, as if that proved the stat was wrong.
The author glared at him and said, “You don’t know half of what you think you know” and one of the other women he pointed at said, “Yeah, half sounds about right”.
I’m really baffled at what people assume they would just *know* about a person.
in high school while hanging out with my friends, i mentioned being sexually abused as a kid. one of my friends stopped and said “why have all my friends been abused?!”
it’s a rampant problem.
I remember being told that my abuse “wasn’t that bad” and that “[her] friends do that kind of thing all the time!”
I’m a dude and she’s a girl. Not to be like “but mens!”
If anything, the fact that she thinks it’s normal is….pretty damn fucked up, I do say so myself
absolutely, and i’m sorry that happened to you. <3
Abuse is abnormal, and it’s sad when people consider it common, implies that it just can’t be stopped, it’s just inevitable.
Abuse IS common. It’s not the norm, but it’s sadly not rare, either.
yup. 🙁 heck, beating kids used to be considered normal and healthy; now it’s against the law. humans are kinda fucked up, we’re just slowly learning how to be less fucked up. and hopefully passing those lessons on.
I think I mucked up some word definitions there.
d’aww.
Daw, they’re good people.
I so ship them
So Do I! What better way to increase diversity in the family’s genetic line?
I Friend-Ship them, they are the most awesome buddies
God, I… I just really love Joe and Joyce’s relationship. Whether it ends up being romantic or not, I genuinely enjoy their interactions. It’s clear Joe cares for Joyce as a friend and as a human being (which is certainly something, for him), and it’s also becoming apparent that Joyce is helping Joe to become a better person. From the scenes way back when Joe was texting Joyce advice on how to deal with her family to now, with Joe losing his composure and Joyce telling him what happened to her, it’s becoming more apparent that these two usually end up showing their weaknesses to each other. I really can’t wait to see how their friendship develops in this comic.
Good show, Willis. Good show.
The two do honestly look out for each other in subtle ways. Joe is one of those few people that actually accommodate Joyce’s pickiness (I don’t think he’s actually made fun of her for it the same way Walky or Sarah has).
Yes! I don’t care if it ends up in romance or not either, but I really like how real and human they feel when they interact. (Outside of that hilarious first date, but that’s excused because hilarious.)
I feel as though their relationship could work either way, whether it be romance or friendship! Neither is greater or lesser than the other, they’re just different ‘paths’ these two could take, like a fork in the road. No matter what happens though, I’m looking forward to seeing how they affect each other in the future–I totally agree with how real they feel when interacting, it’s one of my favorite things about reading them. They’re both people that have had these strong, unwavering, UNHEALTHY beliefs for the longest time that they’ve never had to question until they, pardon the phrase, began to ‘come (dumb) of age.’ They’re like mirror images of each other in a way, and that really became apparent to me when they started to bond over Joyce’s family drama and Joe giving her advice.
This is getting really long, I got carried away. My point is I love these two. They’re messed up but they’re learning from each other and becoming better people as they do so. That’s incredible to me.
Y’know Joe, unless he’s in a coma there’s no rule saying you can’t track him down and beat his ass again.
…I mean, unless you count assault and battery law as a rule, but who does? Pfffffff.
And a little piece of the world got better.
Big difference between Joe and Gashface McDouchebag: Joe relies on his wit and charm, and when given a definite “No”, shrugs his shoulders and moves on to another prospect.
Gashface McDouchebag relies on drugs from the start, taking away his target’s ability to say “No” in the first place.
One deserves a slap in the face. The other, several years behind bars and national recognition as a sexual predator.
“Big difference between Joe and Gashface McDouchebag: Joe relies on his wit and charm, and when given a definite “No”, shrugs his shoulders and moves on to another prospect.”
Sarah would disagree with you. Rather strongly.
When did this happen? My memory is foggy
Sarah first saw Joe ask Joyce out weeks ago in comictime, at which point Sarah sussed out Joe’s character. Then there was the exchange in the cafe starting below.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/sitnext/
And then this happened:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/participate/
We’re finishing each other’s sandwiches? Cool.
(i was avoiding the two-link rule which puts a comment into moderation.)
So, does that mean you’re planning to ask me to marry you before you eventually backstab me and my sister in a hope of taking over my empire?
I was going for Arrested Development. Is yours a GoT nod?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0515217/quotes?item=qt0191120
Frozen.
Ah.
Surprisingly, Frozen has that nod to AD, and more, depending on the article you read..
http://screenertv.com/movies/frozens-shout-outs-to-arrested-development-in-gif-form/
Ah, you’re thinking of the years long revenge plot!
After the “mission abandoned” statement from Joe in the above-mentioned arc, weeis later atGalasso’s, Joe continues to have no filter before saying things.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/participate/
I still read that as being deliberate on Joe’s part to get the attention off Sarah and generally stop the really awkward pause in the conversation. He may or may not have noticed how uncomfortable Sarah was, but he certainly made the right call by directing everyone’s attention to him. There were probably better conversational options he could have chosen from, but it definitely worked.
My internal reaction in Sarah’s place would be a combination of Medium “WTF are you saying?” and Strong “Thank you for opening your mouth”.
We’ll see if Joe figures this out re Sarah. That’s pretty high on his list of “learn to treat women like people”, not that she is obligated to give him a chance.
he most definitely doesn’t take no’s seriously enough
What they said. Hopefully this drove the point home and he’ll start treating no’s with more respect from here on out.
Sure, Joe’s not NEARLY as bad as Ryan, but “he’s not a literal rapist” is a SHAMEFULLY low bar, and one can clear it with room to spare while still being an awful person.
Joe needed to do better, and now that it seems he understands, he’s got a good chance of managing it.
Parroting what the others have said, the entire point of this interaction is to highlight that while Joe is not a rapist, the way he views women around him is not materially different from Ryan. His decision not to rape women stems from an objection to rape, a sense that rape is bad, rather than respecting the basic humanity of the women he is objectifying. “Not technically a rapist” is not high praise.
Except, if he didn’t respect women at all the argument that ‘You’ve been accidentally hurting women and I’m one of them’ wouldn’t have done anything, or if he only cared about Joyce would have been brushed off as a that’s just you thing.
He had to care about women on some level for this argument to even potentially hit, as proven by the thousands of men who hear these things and never change their minds much less immediately show a turn around like Joe did.
He genuinely thought his actions where harmless, found out he was really wrong and had accidentally hurt someone he likes, then (apparently, there isn’t proof yet) decided to change his behavior.
I think that Joe really wants to believe he’s not a bad guy. But- and this is important- he doesn’t care. He actively tries really, really hard to not care, because it’s safer. Because that way, he believes “nobody really gets hurt”.
But trying to actively not care about people involves actively trying to not think about people AS people. And how can you respect a person if you refuse, constantly and adamantly, to think of them AS a person?
He doesn’t want to “really” hurt people but he’s spent a long time thinking that that’s enough. Now he knows that he can do harm by refusing to be aware, and refusing to care, and that’s major.
If he’d had any amount of respect for women worth mentioning, then women telling him to stop would’ve been enough. It’s not as if he had no way of knowing his actions weren’t as harmless as he thought before now. He just refused to listen when he was told.
He cared enough about Joyce (very much despite himself) that she finally was able to get through to him, but ONLY when he found out his behavior was ESPECIALLY harmful to her.
She even had to explain that he can’t know if a women he’s talking to might have been through the same thing just to get him to extend that realization to other women, because “this attitude is harmful towards ALL women” wasn’t enough to trip Joe’s “oh shit this is actually bad” threshold.
He didn’t take his attitude AS FAR as Ryan, but it was the same kind of animal.
We also don’t know why he thinks rape is bad. Is it because it inflicts lifelong mental and emotional scars upon those who are subjected to it, because he believes sex is supposed to be mutually enjoyable or because he believes someone who is a ‘real man’ doesn’t need to resort to rape and should have women flocking to them in droves because of their sexual prowess, thus proving their masculine superiority to those who can’t get laid?
Which ties nicely into a survey done a few years back which found a significant number of college age men would admit to doing things that met the legal definition of rape, as long as the question didn’t use the word rape.
Though it would be interesting to see if Joe’s assumed persona would have led him to claim some of the same things, in the same way he claimed drunken threesomes that he hadn’t done.
Great way to start off my birthday. Thank you Willis ^-^
“just affirm the humanity he denied me” damn you, Willis… Now I’m crying
That’s a great line to end today’s strip. Quiet and powerful.
I challenge anyone not to accept that as the next book title.
Last panel looks like hes been ‘roiding along with the working out, that’s some impressively wide shoulders hes got going on there
We can only hope.
Don’t note much of a difference. Joe has always been broad of shoulders.
This is REALLY good.
I want to stand up and cheer for that last panel. And this comic. And David Willis. And all y’all who’re here supporting this comic. And also Chris Evans.
This is such a good and important conversation. I love them both.
thank you willis. this means a lot to me.
That last sentence seemed kind of OOC for Joyce, like too formal for me to think of it as a real sentence that she would say? sorry for nitpicking, that took me out of it for a second.
other stuff – I like Joe a lot. Like, I think I wouldn’t enjoy his company IRL because he’d hit on me and I wouldn’t get to know anything else about him except the feeling that he wanted to have sex with me, and that sucks. But I like reading about him a lot, and I like that he is genuinely kind and caring, just misguided and ignorant and negative about a lot of things. I’m excited for his character to get to do more interesting things than just lay ladies all the time. Like, http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/stufflikethis/ made me really happy in a lot of ways
Seemed sufficiently IC to me. i can see a Churchy Type getting linguistically formal, particularly on such a serious and personal topic. As for the syntax, I’d expect her to have been doing some reading, between her gender studies class and Becky coming out to her/everyone and all the fallout from that.
Yup. And a lot of stuff’s gone down for her in Leslie’s class (confrontation with Roz, learning the statistical context for Becky’s homelessness, and confrontation with Robin come fairly quickly to mind), and picking up terminology from it is surely entirely in-character.
Just jumping in to agree. It DOES feel a little jarring, but I don’t think that’s because it’s OOC. I think it’s just such a formal and specific way of speaking that it made me pause for a moment- but if a line had to make me pause, I’m okay with it being this one!
Yeah it felt a little too on-the-nose with modern feminist academic language, unless Leslie just had a lesson on it when we weren’t looking. She’s homeschooled and only has been here a few months.
I love the level of trust these two have in each other. Somehow they know they can reveal their secrets.
I’m sure Joe has never so much as hinted that he feels so worthless, and this is the first time Joyce has told anyone what happened to her. The only people who know are those who were there and Sal. She just said to Joe what she’s never been able to say to anyone.
And she said it for *his* sake, to make him understand.
He trusts her because she’s the only one who heard between the lines when he ranted about marriage, the only one who heard the pain behind it. And the only one who ever asked him for help like that.
Damn. Thank you.
Joe’s really taking this to heart. Panel 1 may have been “I…I didn’t know” but by panel 3 he’s definitely thinking either “My god, what have I done?” or “If I keep doing what I’ve been doing I’m just as bad as my father when it comes to hurting people”.
And something tells me that deep down, he feels guilty about not being out on those steps on Wednesday, when Dorothy was in danger. At the very least, even if he’ll never admit it, he was probably scared out of his mind when he heard what happened. Because he came this close to losing someone he counts as a friend forever because of Slashface.
I mean he is only gonna be in the hospital so long, Joe. You may get your chance.
Yeah….but Ryan, much like Blaine, will be leaving the hospital and heading straight to jail.
You mean Ross. Blaine hasn’t been charged with anything, which is going to be a real soul-crusher for Amber when she realizes she could’ve reported a kidnapping and put him in prison if she hadn’t gone herself.
She really couldn’t have. Danny went with him willingly. Blaine didn’t turn nasty until Amber showed up.
If it had been the cops instead, he would have cooperated and likely painted Amber as crazy and paranoid for calling them.
What a great and amazing friendship. This really brightens my day after recent events in the US. Thank you Willis.
This is a particularly lovely comic to read today, politically. It’s nice to hang out in a world where Joyce’s totally apt and baddass account of her experience matters to Joe, where she changes the world a little bit at a time.
Though I do not ship them, I think these two will be very good for each other.
i really needed this today. this and the last couple of days’ comics. thanks.
Something that nobody else has mentioned yet. Ryan “McStabbo” was a scumbag that preyed upon women. However, everyone that has taken a serious shot at him has been female. He has a permanent visible scar from one of his intended victims (Joyce), he got beaned with a baseball bat by her roommate (Sarah), he got dropkicked by a female campus crusader (Amazing Girl), and was finally put into the hospital after he drew a knife on 2 women by Amber, and she used HIS knife to do it. Every single person that has done him real damage has been female.
And that is EXACTLY what he deserves as a minimum. Now we just need the DA to prosecute him, and the judge to give him a meaningful and harsh sentence. Two things that do not happen often enough in real life.
wynne beat you by like 2 minutes, but yes. I assume that was deliberate on Willis’ part.
so we get Joe spilling about how he thinks he’s worthless and doesn’t matter and we’re moving on? Can’t just drop that in the story and leave it.
I imagine he’ll return to that, but this was relevant to what he said, Joyce saying that he does matter and so do his actions. I imagine, hopefully, she will talk to him about those feelings further another time. They do text and actually share pretty intimate thoughts, going by Joyce confiding in him about her parent situation, something I don’t think we’ve even seen her do with Dorothy, Sarah, or Walky.
Wrong. The greatest revenge is killing the one your enemy loves the most, and eating their heart in front of them.
Sure, if you want to go soft on them.
If you’re hardcore, though, the greatest revenge is to order a Domino’s pizza to your enemy’s house.
I thought the greatest revenge was ringing their doorbell, then running away?
Look, just because we’re about to commit to doing the greatest revenge with the intention of breaking their psyches into shattered pieces across the universe from which there will be no hope for anything but the release that comes with total oblivion doesn’t mean you have to be mean about it.
The worst revenge seems to me to be to leave a Domino’s pizza in its box on your enemy’s doorstep, set it on fire, ring the doorbell, and run away.
Not sure who deserves that level of inhumanity though. Trump and all his cronies have people who answer the door for them.
no, no, listen, you do that, but the box is for good pizza. and you replace it with dominos.
You truly are a horribly evil person.
Hi, wanna be friends?
I was told the greatest revenge is a nice glitter toss. ‘Cause herpes of the crafts world and all that.
What about [insert your own hated pizza brand] with glitter on it?
Out of curiosity, what is your favourite pizza brand?
My own home-made pizza with sauce made from scratch and some hot capicola as the main topping.
What? Dominos is great now. I WISH someone would order me some surprise dominos.
I’d order you a pizza just to be a smartass, but that would require me to dox you first. Also money for pizza, and let’s be honest, if I order you a pizza, I’m gonna want one, and I just can’t afford two pizzas, right now.
Any method of revenge that requires that level of inconvenience and ikkyness on your part is missing the point, IMO.
Further to my previous: When it comes to fictional revenge, I am a disciple of Lex Luthor and David Xanatos: Get your enemy to destroy themselves in the most public and humiliating and yet non-lethal way possible. More importantly, make sure that it can’t be traced back to you. Then simply watch them self-destructing before the world media before go back to instructing your broker to buy up their now near-worthless assets to add to your own empire.
“The reason I am smiling is because I won an irreversible victory six moves ago. Now I’m just humouring you and waiting to find out just how long it’s going to to take you to realise it.”
Lex Luthor is indeed a hero!
http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/03/17/episode-1106-from-a-certain-point-of-view/
I am just picturing Danny getting a turn by ukelele to the nads, but he DID get to spit on Blaine, so I mean, he got some cathartic payback in, too.
I’m glad Joe didn’t get defensive and just, listened to Joyce. That was big of him, and hopefully, he’ll be doing more listening going forward. Rise to the occasion, dude.
“But I’ve got this really cool set of nunchuks, though.”
“…I guess the hospital isn’t that far. Let’s go.”
She’s given him a lot to think about.
Feels like Willis left off the last panel.
a G.I. Joe character should appear and say ‘And knowing is half the battle.’
This strip makes me hopeful that Joe will become better than how he was before, though he already was way better than Ryan in that he took no for an answer.
As I’ve said before, he was not that good at that. Sarah in particular was someone he did -not- stop making passes, despite her repeatedly telling him no.
Yup. And I think Joe’s now already better than he was before.
Hoping here that shitty-objectification-lists and shitty-harassing-behaviour are two of the things that he’ll be thinking about from now on in the sense that Joyce has just schooled him with.
Seems significant to me that he’s walking away with her, not walking away from her.
Yeah, he’d almost take no for answer, provided it was screamed at him and came with threats. But he’d still come back and try again later.
I’m sure he’d never go beyond that – he’d keep making passes, but wouldn’t escalate that into anything physical (or drugs or anything like that.) But I’m sure of that for out of character reasons. For someone he’s actually interacting with, not respecting that first No is a huge red flag that he wouldn’t respect any No.
Joyce is Joycing right.
amber was so nice, she got him twice
Joe is doing REALLY good. He listens, he understands, he does nothing of the aggressive pushback he has done before.
So it is a bit frustrating that he immediately falls back to the masculine script of “you were hurt? I WILL PUNCH SOMEONE!” rather than “You were hurt? I will change my actions.”
It’s very understandable, it’s very common and it’s not something terrible or anything, but Joe needs to get away from the toxic masculinity script, and now – with his defenses down – would have been a good opportunity. But I have good hope for him.
Well, in the first panel, he was basically “You were hurt? I should have changed my actions.”
Plus, he mainly wanted to join in because Joyce also just mentioned all the other violence commited on gashface. Can’t really blame anyone of any gender for wanting in on that, eh?
But yeah, there are other options. And that’s what Joyce is telling him about.
I think we should note that the affirmation she’s talking about is the best option from where she sits. This is peak Joyce.
(I’m thinking Hank would be as proud of her as he was of Becky. Carol would be appalled at this unabashed display of agency.)
Joe already acknowledges that he wouldn’t have done what he did had he known of Joyce’s circumstances, and Joyce informs him of how her case isn’t unique and he’s going to encounter more people like her. Joe is asked to think about the circumstances his actions are felt in, and this is the correct process.
On a personal relationship level, one should never apologize before they accept within themselves why their actrions were wrong. Joe’s gonna have to internalize this experience, and that’s not likely to happen in this encounter. Plus, being disappointed about not getting to punch someone is not a masculinity issue.
You know, Joyce had a wrist protector for a reason. Sometimes a punch is warranted.
Ryan did say to Dorothy and and Amber, before he got eviscerated (paraphrased) “I had to.wait until your big friend left”.
Joe did do something physical by being a deterrent. Not sure Ryan would see Walky in the same way, for example.
I’m wondering if anyone noticed (in the midst of all that happened) and told Joe.
Glad I’m not the only one uncomfortable with that whole bit.
It feels like he’s trying to avoid thinking about the uncomfortable parts of his behavious, by shifting the topic to someone he knows he’s better than.
But Joyce isn’t letting him, which is awesome.
So it is a bit frustrating that he immediately falls back to the masculine script of “you were hurt? I WILL PUNCH SOMEONE!” rather than “You were hurt? I will change my actions.”
Because hes a man and thats how most men are (or should be), the defender, the protector and as such its our most important (and best) defining feature, to protect our women (and all women* for that matter)
Punching someone in defense of others is something that can happen only at the time its needed but changing your actions can happen over a longer amount of time
Real men protect women not harm them so good on Joe for that, it’ll also likely please Joyce that she has another larger male she can trust to help protect her plus Joe can take the learning from Joyce about changing his actions but he shouldn’t lose that protective streak because its a good and positive trait and should be encouraged
*Substitute whatever gender you feel appropriate here
All of that is vaguely uncomfortable for all sorts of gender role issues, but to focus on Joe: Joe always would have punched Ryan, had he known or been present at the right time. And then likely turned it into an excuse to hit on Joyce or someone else.
Before this conversation, he still was a potential danger himself – doing harm through his attitude, if not more directly. Even if he could also do the protector role.
Plenty of abusive men also have that protective streak, it’s just focused on what they consider theirs – “their” family, their children, their women. Even if they’re abusing them themselves. In a lot conversations about rape or sexual assault, I often see those who are doing the most deflection and victim blaming switch over to demanding the harshest punishments or boasting about what they would have done when they find a case and a victim that meets their standards for “real rape”.
I think part of the reason theres toxic masculinity is because the west has moved away from defining what a man should be and so to fill the void theres so much wrong ideas out there to replace it with
Take Joe or Ryan as examples, not real men (though Joes pretty close) but would probably think of themselves as such
eew. no. the whole concept of “real men” is icky. there’s always going to be people who don’t fit the mold.
With billions sure but the fundamental aspect of being a man, protecting and defending, is still a pretty basic one thats easy to carry out by anyone
Take Danny for example, physically weak but still willing to defend and try to help Joe even when a lot of other people would prefer that he ditch him, thats a pretty good example of being a man right there
Then why are you excluding women? Women are physically weak just like Danny.
statistically speaking, that is. not all women are physically weak, not all men are physically strong.
Because I’m talking about being a man and what men should and shouldn’t do and men, generally speaking, perform better with defined roles and expectations
Men, generally speaking, being stronger than women are better suited to the protector role
” men, generally speaking, perform better with defined roles and expectations ”
nah, it’s people who fit their defined roles who perform better with defined roles and expectations.
men being statistically likely to fit the protector role does not justify claiming that the men who don’t fit that role aren’t “real men”.
Maybe “The West©” moved away from defining what a man should be for a good reason. Y’know, like needlessly putting half the population into a box, where if they don’t behave in one specific manner, they’re just discarded and viewed as not “real men”.
Maybe it’s because the distinction between “real man” and “not real man” is actually meaningless and extremely subjective at a base level.
Maybe but i see the void being filled by the PUA or MGTOW movement, goings on at college fraternities, crazy excess in the financial world etc etc, men looking at the wrong role models for becoming a man
As an example we know Joe is a fundamentally good person, that the potential is there and its rally close to the surface but what was his example of being a man, his father, his lying, cheating father and yet Joe in some way still tried to protect women (like in a really bad way obviously)
Extra zeros in a bank account, the latest sports car, “bros before hoes”, maybe the problem isn’t that the west has moved away but that the pendulum (for lack of a better word) has moved too far away
I honestly have no idea what you’re trying to tell me, right now. I’ve had plenty of “real men”, as defined by you above, try to be a role model to me. Every last one of them has turned out to be a pathetic, whiny little bongo, with maybe one exception.
Just yesterday, I came had an example of your “real man” up in my face, furious, about two seconds away from laying me out, because I dared to contradict him in the most minor of ways. He’s a strong guy, works a physically strenuous job, has security installed for the house.
That’s 1:1 the “protector” role you defined, and he’s still a perpetual victim, so insecure in his own manhood that he can’t even handle the slightest lack of ass-kissing. That he’s willing to physically beat me for daring to say I have a name. So, respectfully, FUCK your definition of a “real man”. Money, frat houses, and pendulums be damned.
Well no, I said men protect and defend not attack, if hes attacking over something like that then hes wrong, completely wrong and I’m sorry you had those experiences
I guess I got lucky when I join the army because the NCOs and SNCOs that trained/mentored me did a pretty good job of it
See, I don’t even completely reject the idea that people should defend their own, if able. I just think it’s needlessly shallow to put that up on a pedestal, as if it’s the most important virtue, and anyone who doesn’t or can’t live up to it is somehow lesser.
And I think it’s outright harmful to take that template and apply it to only one gender. That’s kinda part of how we get toxic masculinity in the first place.
now I’m wondering… what, exactly, did the west do that chris73 sees as “moved away from defining what a man should be”? Was it giving women the right to vote, or own property, or work alongside men? Was it abolishing slavery? Gay rights? Anti-discrimination laws?
Because it’s still not safe for a man to wear a skirt in a lot of places. We have blue MAN soap so that men don’t have to worry about accidentally buying girl-soap. We have so many ridiculous cultural stigmas for men to navigate… how is our culture not defining what a man should be?
Shit, ya got me. This entire thread has devolved into nonsense, just like they always do when toxic masculinity is remotely questioned. Once the supply of boxes and definitions runs out, it’s always down to non sequiturs and tangents.
Problem is, while this is about the best take on traditional gender roles, it’s still packed with so much crappy baggage. “Man should be the protector” quickly leads to “Women need to be protected”, which leads to “Woman need a man to protect them”, which leads to “Men must control women, to protect them”.
It also leads to those men less suited for the “protector” role – those smaller and weaker (or less aggressive?) being treated as lower status.
Beyond all that, if we have so much toxic masculinity in the west because we’ve moved away from “defining what a man should be”, we must have done it long ago because all the toxic masculinity crap goes back basically as far as we can trace – with the possible exception of some of the less changed tribal cultures. Rape, women as property, none of this is at all new. In fact, in many ways, nasty as it is now, it’s far better than it’s been throughout most of history. I’d actually say that what’s really happening is that we’ve changed many of the laws and some expectations and the cultural attitudes are taking a long time to catch up.
To your first paragraph yeah it can, unfortunately, but thats where those men are lacking in male role models, where they come from I don’t know but overall is it better to have men think and act like protectors or not think like protectors?
Well we have the lest amount of toxic masculinity in the world so thats something (its not much but its something), I mean if I had to live as a women then I would definitely choose the west (NZ specifically) I just think that where the west is now could be better
Like for example there seems to be a whole thing (still) of what women need to do to keep themselves safe whereas it should be more of what men should (or rather shouldn’t), do
I dunno I just see things like:
“So it is a bit frustrating that he immediately falls back to the masculine script of “you were hurt? I WILL PUNCH SOMEONE!” rather than “You were hurt? I will change my actions.”
and it winds me up, its a completely legit reaction and yet its perceived as a negative when its not, you can punch someone and then change your actions so its not like its one or the other
err… wait… the west is responsible for toxic masculinity, but also has the least of it in the world?
And we need to get back to the traditional definitions of manhood that drove the toxic masculinity in the first place.
….boggles…
because men are stronger, so they must be protectors! but weak men can be protectors too, they can use guns or money instead! but it’s their physical strength that makes them naturally suited to it!
>.<
yeah I'm getting sarcastic, I think I'm done for the day.
@chris73: To the question in the first paragraph: It’s better for men to think and act like protectors than like attackers, but it’s also perfectly fine for them to think and act like nurturers or creators or builders or any other positive role you can think of.
Toxic masculinity has been the norm for hundreds of years. It’s why honor killings and duels are a thing. The idea that to be considered a man, you had to follow certain arbitrary standards.
MRAs and PUAs are just a new form of that, coming about as adherence to traditional gender roles fades away.
There’s no reason why “what a man should be” is something that society needs to define for people. There’s no reason that certain attributes or behavior should be considered positive explicitly for men.
If it’s good to be brave or strong or to protect others, there is absolutely no reason why it would specifically desirable for men to aspire to those qualities and not women as well.
Wow. That’s a lot of Gender essentialist nonsense in one post. What do men who don’t fall into your “Real man” boxes do? Are they fake men? Are they robots?
(This was meant as a responce to chris73 not thejeff, who brought up some very good points.)
If they’re not willing to protect their loved ones then no they’re not real men. They’re weak, sometimes scared, sometimes dangerous (like Ryan)
wait, so, women get a free pass? that’s sexist too.
Women can be and do whatever they want to do and are the equal of men in most respects but physically men and women aren’t equal so its beholden on men to protect women ont harm them
that… directly contradicts your point about Danny.
No…it doesn’t, Danny is (probably) physically weaker in comparison to most of the other guys his age in the cast (maybe not Walky) but hes still stronger than most of the female cast his age simply because hes male
have you even paid attention to the female cast this comic has
what is all this, why are you saying this, do you want to go away
your example was Danny defending Joe. Not only is it a man protecting a man, instead of a man protecting a woman, but danny didn’t need any physical strength to do it.
if physical strength is what makes “men” bound to the role of proctector, then men without physical strength aren’t “real” men, and that’s icky.
if it’s not about being physically stronger, if defending with words or guns or anything like that counts, then women shouldn’t be excluded for *their* probable lack of physical strength.
I was excluding women because I was talking about what it means to be a man, not what it means to be a women
What I find “icky” is the whole thought pattern that suggests anything praising men for being men also has to include women, just because
You want to post what its means to be a women then be my guest
have you even paid attention to the female cast this comic has
what is all this, why are you saying this, do you want to go away
Should have made that clearer, if the cast were real life. In comic form sure theres a difference
So men aren’t allowed to be weak? There not allowed to be scared. Sounds like exactly the kind of environment that toxic and awful men are generated from. You are trying to suggest we stop Ryan by creating the exact environment that Men like him are created by and thrive in.
“Hey, fight fire with lava, I always say.” – Ghandi
“Because hes a man and thats how most men are (or should be), the defender, the protector ”
Here’s an example of the icky implications of that way of thinking: it makes a man who’s been disabled no longer a “real” man, because he’s not physically capable of defending people.
Protecting people is a good thing, and people should do it (provided they’re welcome). Binding that good thing to a specific gender is icky. It shames both men who don’t fit the role, and non-men who do fit it.
Well sure in any situation you can always come up with worst case examples but that doesn’t mean the disabled guy still can’t protect
Can he use fire a rifle, shotgun or pistol?
Can he still pay for security?
Its not helpful, for men, to try to improve men by wanting men to be more like women
Its far more useful to improve men by improving mens actions, such like Joyce is doing right here, shes not berating Joe, shes not belittling Joe, shes leting Joe what he needs to do simply and concisely without changing who Joe is and its working
“Well sure in any situation you can always come up with worst case examples but that doesn’t mean the disabled guy still can’t protect”
then why are women excluded?
“Its not helpful, for men, to try to improve men by wanting men to be more like women”
I don’t understand where this came from. who wants men to be like women? like women in what way? what about men who *are* “like women”?
“Its far more useful to improve men by improving mens actions, such like Joyce is doing right here, shes not berating Joe, shes not belittling Joe, shes leting Joe what he needs to do simply and concisely without changing who Joe is and its working”
That we can agree on. 🙂 Teaching people to be better people, one little step at a time.
If the women wants to be the protector then thats all well and good, some are well suited to it (my wife for example has probably punched over more people thatn I have) but I’m still better at than my wife is because I’m bigger and stronger
No one specifically comes out and says men should be more like women but when people see a negative in normal male behavior and suggest its wrong then its hard to draw the conclusion
hmm. I do believe that men should be allowed to be more like women if they want to, and not shamed for it as if women are lesser creatures, or as if there’s something wrong with not fitting the role someone else assigned you at birth.
I’m not sure I agree with the original thing about Joe’s response being masculine; I think that people of any gender easily fall into thoughts of revenge, it’s just the punching part that’s somewhat gendered.
I think there’s also a false dichotomy, in that when there’s something bad about “normal male behaviour”, that doesn’t always mean the “normal female” behaviour would be any better. I can see how it would look that way, though.
I just think that in trying to provide a positive role for the majority of men, you’re unintentionally hurting the minority, and discouraging/hurting women. You’re trying to make a more comfortable cage, whereas I want to break it open and build something without bars at all.
I’m not if it came across or just got lost in all the following gender essentialism, but I don’t think Joe’s response is necessarily masculine, but it’s still a response I distrust when it comes to rape or sexual assault.
In my admittedly anecdotal experience, those who react to learning of a sexual assault with the loudest protestations of violence – whether that’s “if I’d been there” or threats of revenge – also tend to be those most resistant to believing such allegations in the first place. If it’s personal or so blatant it meets their internal definition for “real rape”, they react in an extreme way. If not, they dismiss or excuse.
People who’s initial reaction is more sympathetic or comforting also tend to be the ones who believe from the start.
Possibly, and this has just come to me, the first group is focused on the attacker, while the second on the one attacked?
So we should try to improve men by teaching them to be more like real men?
And, I suppose, improve women by teaching them to be more like real women? If we’re doing the essentialist gender role thing, I assume women have one too.
According to your standards of what real men (and perhaps real women) should be like. Anyone who doesn’t like or want that role needs to be pushed into taking it anyway, even if they’re not very good at it.
How about we work on making people better* people, in whatever way they’re inclined, rather than forcing them into narrow roles you’ve defined for them.
*”Better” here being loosely defined. If we can teach someone to channel their aptitude for violence into protection, great. If we can teach someone else to be more creative, or more nurturing or whatever, rather than push them into a protective role they don’t like and aren’t naturally good at, isn’t that better?
I’m saying nothing about being a women, only about being a man. If you want to say what it means to be a women go right ahead (probably make more sense than what I’m saying)
It doesn’t have to be if someone says something about being a mean then there must be something about being a women.
I do think the world overall would be a better place if more men did take on the roles as protectors
Sure teach everyone to be better, absolutely, but the average man is stronger than the average woman so it makes more sense for the man to take on the protection role
no, what makes sense is for the protection role to be available to anyone who fits it, and to let those who don’t fit it choose other positive roles without shame.
if you want more protectors, do it by promoting the protector role, sure, but not at the expense of other positive roles.
Oh you also have ideas of what women have to be.
Joy.
“Its not helpful, for men, to try to improve men by wanting men to be more like women.”
If you’re not saying anything about what it means to be a woman, then this bit makes no sense.
I have improved by becoming more emotionally open and more willing to listen to other people. Those are both traits that society codes as “more like women.” And you know what? I haven’t been hurt by this. I’m a happier better person and my loved ones are also happier as a result.
Do you know what’s not helpful? People who tell me to “act like a real man.”
I improved myself by becoming mentally and physically stronger that, in turn, led me to becoming less fearful and more confident, that led me to becoming more open and a better person overall
What is really not helpful is telling men (or rather boys) that strength, aggression, the protective instinct, the traditional male attributes if you like aren’t important
I don’t think anyone here is saying that – though “aggression” is at best a double edged sword. Though I’d say that boys get enough emphasis on the strength and aggression part, at the very least. Boyhood is already so focused on physical competition and not being a wimp or girly, that I really don’t think we need to add more to it.
More to channel the existing emphasis in a more protective direction, yes. But not more on “manly” being good in and of itself.
“More to channel the existing emphasis in a more protective direction, yes”
Well I’m glad theres something we can agree on
Huh almost as if multiple people managed to improve themselves in wildly different ways and yet still became better as a result. Almost as if there are multiple ways to improve as a person and the idea of any of those things being the “real” way to be a certain gender is entirely ridicules.
Imagine that.
Also your right we shouldn’t be telling young boys aggression is “not important” we should be telling them its actively harmful.
Aggression isn’t actively harmful though, it just needs to be focused into something positive
Aggression is actively harmful. Negative traits can be channeled into good things on occasion but the net worth of aggression as a trait is extremely low.
Also thanks for not addressing my main point.
Ryan waited for Joe to leave but decided that the superhero was a bonus because he believes its a mans place to defend his womens or at least its exclusive to men to protect women and if God forbid a woman does it there is something wrong with her and she deserves to be punished.
Toedad decided it was his place to “protect” Becky from not being brainwashed.
So its better to tell a man that there place is to protect than to conquer or rule but its not the message men need.
A real man is a person who adults 99% of the time and considers himself a man.
It’s not just men who should want to protect the people they care about.
It’s not just men who should have ambition or be assertive about what they want.
It’s not just men who should be allowed to be bold or aggressive.
It’s not just men who should be allowed to be strong and athletic.
Men shouldn’t be considered less of a man if they’re not strong and aggressive.
You’re not less of a man if you’re sensitive
You’re not less of a man if you’re gentle
You’re not less of a man if you’re nurturing
You’re not less of a man if you express and talk about your feelings
You’re not less of a man if you cry
Dividing up what qualities are “required” based on gender is not only arbitrary and stupid, but actively harmful for everyone. Even if its only that they’re encouraged more in one gender or the other, it’s fucking harmful.
It encourages everyone to not be an entire person. It leads to people who are unhappy and incomplete. It creates toxic masculinity and reinforces sexism. There is literally no societal benefit to it, except for those men who check all the right boxes naturally, rather than out of peer pressure and shame.
Toxic masculinity isn’t stopping Joe from saying he will change his actions because Joe *already said* he would change his actions, right there in Panel 1.
Joyce the Social Justice Barbarian employed her rage (of a kind) in a way that is devastating to injustice and may have a Social Justice Barbarian acolyte in Joe.
“Social Justice Barbarian”
Nice. And fitting.
Those two would be mighty efficient if they worked together 🙂
Can we have more Social Justice classes? I know of someone who calls himself a Social Justice Bard. We need a range.
Here we go: https://www.themarysue.com/social-justice-pins/
YES.
But now I know those exist I am sad I cannot buy them online!
Joyce is the barbarian and Joe is the acolyte/sidekick. Does Joe wear the chain mail bikini?
A chainmail mankini?
I’m looking forward to the character growth that Joe is showing here and hope he rethinks some of his actions.
I’m glad they’re friends though. They can learn from one another. This arc has been great.
Man, roll credits.
Webcomics over sorry guys it finished.
Good run.
*thumbs up*
I’m not fucking letting Amber’s character arc end where it’s at right now.
That’s saved for the epilogue (starting tomorrow and continuing for as long as Willis feels like it, like the Return of the King ending).
You know what, 🍊🍊🍊 (if that’s even your real name)? I’d love to see you wrap up all those plotlines at once, without it dragging a little.
Wait, in this comic, or in Return of the King?
Because in the movie (which I did mostly like) I don’t think dragging was the root problem. I’d have even been game for scouring the shire. It was more making things look like endings that weren’t, so that instead of a plot arc winding things down, everything broke into cascading epilogues.
And in the comic, well, that it would take an unbelievably long epilogue was meant to be the joke? Maybe it didn’t work, I don’t know. There are only so many oranges here to come up with them.
Don’t worry, I’m just jerkin’ your gherkin. The joke was perfectly serviceable, I just like to feign defensiveness toward fiction I enjoy.
Unrelatedly, I now see that cake donuts are a mere two votes away from indisputably sliding into a clear 10% lead over yeast donuts.
And now I wonder what Joe’s and Joyce’s opinions on cake vs. yeast are.
Y’see, Joyce, no matter how hard we try, something that happens to a stranger remains just that: Something that happened to a stranger. To know that something like that happened to someone you know and like personally always has more of an impact. I guess that’s just a fact of human psychology.
Welp we are still very much family/tribe oriented so we will definitely care more about “our people” than strangers.
It’s not an immutable fact. Nor does it follow that we can’t view harm to strangers as bad, even if it doesn’t affect us emotionally.
Yes, it’s harder to care about what happens to strangers in general, but that’s no excuse to not care if our own actions are harmful to others.
On the note of Druggo McStabbed, I got a question for those of you who are following It’s Walky right now.
How do you think Dina compares against Ryan, taking in account these last few days’ strips?
She kept Mike on an altered mind state to take advantage of him, emotionally if not sexually, for several days. No regret, up until it backfired.
Normally, I’d consider it pretty horrific. OTOH, this is the It’s Walky version of Mike. I can’t actually take him seriously as a human being.
See, I don’t get that.
“This is the It’s Walky version of Mike”, like what does that mean? Are you referring to the unspeakably horrific deeds he commits up to the current storyline? Because he actually doesn’t commit any.
The worst thing he ever did was apparently try to maim/kill Joyce’s dog, and I’m not 100% convinced on how serious that was.
There is a universe in which Dina is terrible?
Wait, whaat??
(I knew there was a reason why I avoided the other Willisverses…)
What Dina does to Mike in “It’s Wally” is clearly wrong, but that universe is so far away from reality that its hard to treat it the same as DOA or this universe.
As some have mentioned before, Robin and Mike were and still are assholes, but the old universe bent to make their awfulness OK. A more realistic universe doesn’t have that luxury and both characters are forced to own their awfulness.
Reminds me of Rick from Rick and Morty. Objectively awful, but so powerful that the universe is manipulated around him until there is some, albeit flimsy, justification for his behaviour.
I mean, Dina’s pretty terrible in It’s Walky, but I’d probably place her a rung below (above?) Ryan. I can’t support my argument with any sort of personal experience, but I’d definitely rarher have someone basically brainwash me into being a different person than sexually assault me.
Yeah, no, I’m the opposite. you can break my body or my decency, but my mind, my true self is my own. To see THAT taken away from me is even worse.
Awww I love that ending panel. So cute.
So.
I’d like to apologise for my alter’s “that guy” comment. That was poorly worded and hurtful and probably made the whole discussion far more unproductive and messy than it needed to be.
Also, if anyone knows a place that alters can talk more freely that would be appreciated, I haven’t found much yet and the last few days have been… Interesting.
Now I’m gonna run off again because certain parts of my mind are really not happy I’m typing.
i don’t know of any websites that are specifically for that, but my friends with DID tend to make separate twitters or tumblrs for each of their alters. or they just make sure their followers know about their alters, and let em all run one account.
Damn, you’re good, Willis.
Heh, when Jacob hears about Joyce giving Ryan a scar I think he will upgrade his opinion of her from “great” to “awesome”
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/boyspizzaretreat/
The Joycob shippers are loading coal as we speak (wait, does S.S. Joycob run the in coal or diesel?).
I’m glad we got an answer as to what Joe knows of Joyce’s situation. That leaves..who in the grey zone?
I thought it was obvious that it involves burning wood …
What this mini-arc is reminding us is that Joe is still only 18 or 19 years old. In many ways, he’s still a teen and not an adult and we can’t expect him to react like an adult. He’s still working out what doing ‘adult’ means and I think a lot of it comes as a big surprise to him.
Lovely! Thank you, Willis!
Joe your eyebrows are possessed!
Joe’s behaviour shows what I’ve observed many times with the friends I had when I was a teenager. They had a lot of respect an immense trust in the girls and women who were a part of their personal circle of friends, but viewed almost every other member of the female sex as sex objects. Heavens have mercy on anyone who treated their friends the same way, or as one guy learned after waking up bruised on the sidewalk, call them derogatory slurs.
“There might be more people you know, who you just don’t know about”
Yes. Yes. A bunch more yesses.
Suddenly Gender Studies class comes into focus for Joe…
I think it’ll take more than this for it to sink in XD But, baby steps…
It’ll probably take more than this for ALL of Gender Studies to sink in, but he’s probably starting to get a grasp on the concepts, now. Sometimes, dumpster fires just need a bucket of water thrown on them, especially if they were raised by dumpster fires.
“You got it, dollface”. So close.
Sweet, sweet revenge.
Friendship solidified. <3
I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
I like to think that with the fade to gray background, Willis is calling out this.
https://youtu.be/JMOBxjIvLBE
I feel like in panel four, Joe is going “NOPE can’t process these emotions right now, let’s distract from them with facts instead.”
Which is very normal and common, and frankly he’s had a LOT dropped on him in a short period. He’s going to need time to process.
This was the most satisfying arc of the entire comic. We netted more compassionate characters than we started with
Also, oooh I like that last panel! No background sets up some wonderful framing
Yeah…
Bravo, Willis. It was a bumpy ride for me, but at the end, I found the arc very compelling.
Wait… Joe and Joyce? IS THIS BECOMING A THING NOW!? FOR REALS!?
D’aaaaaaaawwww. I really like the idea of these two being friends. Not a couple, necessarily, but friends.
And I’ll probably go back to lurk mode now.
Not like I’m an authority on the subject or anything but I’ve enjoyed how Willis chooses to depict privilege in his stories when it gets brought up. It’s never this whiny guilt fest that so many writers treat it as; it’s an opportunity for self reflection on the ways our actions impact those around us, and what we can do to change it.
Walky gets yelled at by Sal and instead of buckling over in guilt for “being whiter” he tries to be there for her in ways he hasn’t before, and now we have Joe be forced to confront his actions by someone he’s casually knifed a thousand times over. It’s fantastic storytelling.
Also I want to echo maggneato’s tweets currently in Willis’ feed and I say I sometimes get hit with that “I’m choosing to present as straight/I have passing privilege” thing and it’s bullhocky that needs to be crushed under a boot.
I think this strip pretty awesomely shows how much Joyce has matured since the beginning of the comic.
That last frame is very tigger-and-pooh-ish.
Joe is learning. And working to be better.
Awesome.