I took her frown from a couple of strips back, popped it into Paint.NET, did a quick recolor, added a Super Saiyan Aura and DBZ background, and called it a day.
Absolutely can be. People can believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and His redemptive sacrifice for humankind and also believe that a horrible thing they want to do is quite all right because blah blah excusecakes.
She’s a hateful, spiteful, nasty Christian in dire need of repentance.
“… and also believe that a horrible thing they want to do is quite all right because blah blah excusecakes.”
They believe it’s ok, because they are Good People™, and they are Good People™ because they are such good Christians, and since Good People™ don’t do bad things, but they are doing this thing, then that clearly means that this thing they are not doing is not a bad thing. BECAUSE they are doing it, and they are Good People™ who don’t do bad things. See?
Nixon’s full explanation is clearer than that and actually not something I *completely* disagree with, where the president can give authorization to do things that would otherwise be against regulations or illegal (which IS the function of an executive to do), because the president is more accountable to Congress and the people than, say, the CIA. Nixon’s other behavior belied his authoritarian streak, however, which colors this justification, and why the interview is historically relevant.
Mary’s logic rests on some faulty premises; that “good people” are immune from being wrong in their actions, that Christians (as she defines it) are “good people”, and that she meets the definition of Christian no matter what she does. Thus, in all cases, she is Christian, therefore she is Good, therefore she is never wrong.
Yeah, I’m sorry, but yes she is. She might be an absolutely awful Christian, but she’s still Christian.
People like Mary exist among us, even within communities that are important to us. You can’t simply handwave that away by saying they were never really part of those communities.
The problem is there are enough different interpretations of what exactly constitutes a “true Christian” that no one Christian can say “Well she doesn’t fit MY definition of a Christian and is therefore not a Christian.”
Of course it’s it’s wrong to judge ALL Christians by the behavior of the shitty ones, but it’s also very dangerous to dismiss the shitty ones by implying they’re not REALLY true Christians. This downplays the very real issue of people using their religion as justification for extremely shitty outlooks and behaviors. Because these shitty people are still, in their minds, Christian.
It’s beneficial to be acknowledge there are shitty people in every group rather than just pretending they’re not part of the group.
In this context, I find it more useful to parse “Christians” as “people who consider themselves Christians and are known by other people to consider themselves Christians” than get tangled up up in whether it’s possible to define a Real Christian, and if so, whether any given person fits that definition or not.
There are people who feel that no true Christian could vote for Donald Trump, and demonstrably a lot of other people who think it was perfectly fine, or even the only available moral action. It doesn’t resolve the question of how to deal with the harmful actions of those who regard those actions as Christian-compatible or Christian-mandatory to just declare those people not to be Christians at all.
The problem is there are enough different interpretations of what exactly constitutes a “true Christian” that no one Christian can say “Well she doesn’t fit MY definition of a Christian and is therefore not a Christian.”
Though some sects actually will say, and 100% mean, that someone is not a Christian if they don’t follow that sect’s individual flavor of Christianity. Usually it’s based on doctrine rather than personal behavior. Personal behavior tends to be policed by each sect or church on their own. So if your behavior doesn’t follow their guidelines (e.g., you think homosexuality is okay or you don’t go to church often enough), they’ll decide you’re not a Christian and kick you out.
So the No True Scotsmen fallacy ends up being a bit more interesting in cases like this because there’s actually a case to be made to say that someone is not a Christian, depending on the rules of one’s own sect, but acording to the rules of another they may still be.
According to the doctrine that I was raised under, you’re confusing sanctification for justification. Once you are justified, that is, saved from hell by Christ’s sacrifice (death and subsequent sojourn in hell, where his soul was destroyed before miraculously popping back into being at the same instant), you are saved, and therefore Christian.
After that, you must work on your own sanctification, that is, living by following Christ’s teachings, denying your base impulses and practicing submission to the demands made upon you by the moral code of the Bible. So according to this version of Christianity, to which many (though by no means all, or even the majority of) Protestants subscribe, Mary, having acknowledged Christ as her savior and the Christian God as the only true god, is absolutely Christian.
She’s a terrible person. That wouldn’t be in question. But she’s Christian.
It’s the hypocrites and extremists that stand out of every group enough that they’re what you think of when you think of that group of people. Mary fits my view of Christianity to a tee.
It’s an irony that a substantial portion of Rabbi Joshua ben Josef’s ministry was devoted to how much people were using religion to fuck over people in his time and how they needed to stop it.
I would say Rachel’s stance on redemption, if she believes it, makes her not a Christian, because the whole point of that religion is that we can all be redeemed by Christ. I’ve talked with people of dozens, if not hundreds, of different Christian groups, and they all have their own spin on that, but the fact that it *happens* is a constant.
Mary, on the other hand. People like Mary are the reason I originally stopped being a Christian. Because if that’s something to aspire to, I’m out. If I could’ve told myself Mary wasn’t a Christian, it would’ve taken more. But she’s not, to my knowledge, taken any stance that is actually strictly opposed to Christianity. Many denominations would denounce her, but most of those would not denounce the denominations that would hold her up as an ideal Christian.
I imagine Jesus in the corner of the panel, standing at the edge of the group, going “Dun dun DUNNNNNNNNN!!!” when Mary speaks, and Billie looking over at him and being all, “Really?” and Jesus looking kind of embarrassed but also kind of pleased with himself.
She’s not really seeing the consequences of things though, or she wouldn’t have shitbombed Ruth. Mary being Mary could just be low-grade noise to her right now, rather than an active threat to the health of half the dorm.
(and oh crap, Joyce in the background’s almost as heartbreaking as Amber…)
Ignoring most of what goes on around you is typically key in thinking oneself perceptive and wise, knowing all about the world. There are very few people who can really understand all the nuances of what goes on in the world. I know that I myself cannot, yet I seem to do a better job than most of the people I’ve encountered who seem to think they can. I can think of a few people I’ve met who do a far better job than I do. But generally, they don’t seem to consider themselves wise. There’s one I’m not sure of; I never got to know her well enough.
Now would be a real great time for Rachel to turn around and tell Mary to fuck off too, but,
1. Rachel’s rant and the circumstances around it suggest she either doesn’t know or doesn’t care what Mary did to Ruth. I lean toward doesn’t care, since Billie said she talked to the floor about it IIRC.
2. Pretty sure the second part is meant to be hushed, so’s to keep anyone other’n Billie from hearing it. The audience is just meant to hear “Why wouldn’t I smile?”.
Mary blackmailed Ruth.
Using Ruth and Billie’s relationship,
with the threat of the RM.
To achieve personal freedom from her authority.
Billie (and the floor) blackmailed Mary.
Using Mary’s previous wrongdoings, ie blackmail, and a swift punch, as a power play,
with the threat of the RM
To achieve Mary acting like a kind person.
Now, I think.
Mary is blackmailing Billie in an attempt to control Ruth
Using the punch and the blackmail plot (likely saying Part A was false)
with the threat of the RM or higher
To again achieve personal freedom from authority.
Stories need villains and antagonists. Mary exists to be hated. It’s her purpose as a character. The more you hate her, the more of a successful villain her creator can consider her to be.
Stories don’t really need villains and antagonists, but that’s a bit beside the point.
I do disagree that a hated villain is necessarily a good villain, though. When thinking back on what I count as great villains they didn’t make me go “I hope that asshole gets hit by a truck”. That was reserved for the ones that wore out their welcome and/or were just annoying.
A story requires conflict to be in any way interesting; therefore, an antagonist is necessary. It needn’t be a villain, of course. It is simply a force that opposes the protagonist in their goals. The three essential types of story: Person v. Person, Person v. Nature, Person v. Self.
Personally, I find exploration and learning quite interesting, when they’re well-written. Like the parts of the Recluse books where the main character learns a trade.
Mary and her shit are also a nice bit of verisimilitude. In real life, you win once against some plotting bigot, and hooray for you, but there’s another one, and another one, and then the first one comes back, and then there’s a different plot, and it goes on forever, and your human rights and the beauty in the world and the mercy and generosity of humans is always, always under attack, always on the edge of slipping away from us. Mary is right where she should be.
Tbh, though, Mary has gotten to the point for me that I’m bored and just want nothing to do with her (ie, with reading about her). She’s so tiresomely hateful and predictably shitty that nowadays I just find her draining. Like with real people I’ve had enough of I don’t even care about seeing her get her comeuppance or anything like that anymore, I just want her _gone_. If this was the last we ever heard of her I’d be totally cool with that and not even be bothered by any dangling plot threads.
Joyce also looks stunned. Given how much she has grown, that’d be rather… upsetting to hear.
Billie would also easily be collateral damage if Ruth were the kind of abuser that Rachel paints her as as an event such as this one would lead an abuser to take it out on their victim later usually. And Rachel has done nothing to prevent that, she’s gone silent as Ruth leaves and she turned Billie against her in her process of Ruth destroying so it is doubtful Billie would even listen if Rachel tried to say something to her about it when she tries to leave.
Might as well make Mary happy and make everyone else collateral in the process of tearing out Ruth’s soul when she is at her most vulnerable and least able to stand up for herself apparently.
Yeah, that looks like a nice set of 3 traumatized faces of varying intensities. Good going, Rachel, bet you’re going to feel real good about that when the full context of your actions hits you.
Willis said that “Robin is still Robin” so the question is “Is Rachel still Rachel?” Because while it’d be interesting to change it, up, so far everyone is still themselves.
I’m going to guess yes, which means she’s going to be horrified when she realizes the extent of harm she just performed here with what she initially viewed as a dressing down of a disingenuous bully.
honestly i wasn’t trying to do more than say “hey let’s not do this”. like im one hundred percent sure you had good intentions but like, unfortunately, still came off to me in a negative way
TBH, I don’t think brunettes are the subject of enough discrimination to justify a “#notallbrunettes” post. It was a funny joke. Why do we have to treat it like a serious affront?
i.e. brown-skinned people get this treatment, unfortunately, a lot; brown eyes and hair are not always valued as much as blonde hair and blue eyes; we have a dark vs. light symbolism thing going on in our culture where dark is always evil and light is always good, and that’s reductive. because i was looking up poems for my friend about her dark brown eyes last week and it was really hard to find any that didn’t go on about how people don’t appreciate brown eyes enough, or use food or mud comparisons.
but also because relating people’s personal characteristics to their physical appearances is usually a bad thing. and idk if i looked like mary, seeing something like that said would really bum me out. as someone who tends more to the joyce end of the spectrum, seeing that still bummed me out. so i said something about it, because not speaking up when things bother you is usually something you regret later.
so like: it wasn’t a funny joke to me. why did you find it funny?
yup!! that and paul simon talking about carrie fisher and her cold coffee eyes after they broke up. (which is still a food comparison and…tenuous.) it’s really not as much as you get about blue eyes, tho. it’s rare and far between. and not quite as romanticized.
She walks in beauty, like the night
Of cloudless climes and starry skies;
And all that’s best of dark and bright
Meet in her aspect and her eyes;
Thus mellowed to that tender light
Which heaven to gaudy day denies.
One shade the more, one ray the less,
Had half impaired the nameless grace
Which waves in every raven tress,
Or softly lightens o’er her face;
Where thoughts serenely sweet express,
How pure, how dear their dwelling-place.
And on that cheek, and o’er that brow,
So soft, so calm, yet eloquent,
The smiles that win, the tints that glow,
But tell of days in goodness spent,
A mind at peace with all below,
A heart whose love is innocent!
@zoological just curious: really only food and mud-comparisons? That kind of wants me to try and write my own…and I just remembered I did once write a poem about my best friend back in school, but I more or less simply described her eyes as “mahogany” and them looking “at me in a pleasant way” – it’s rather kitschy overall.
My first associations with brown eyes would be from nature (trees – wood, chestnuts, hazelnuts; gemstones like amber, fluorite, topaz, or carnelian; copper, etc.) and only after that food items (coffee, chocolate…bread(?)).
(Don’t get me wrong. I myself have brown eyes and hair, and I honestly tried to think of something.)
I guess as for the lack of poems about them: it’s easier to compare blue eyes with something (you immediately can think of the sky, water, etc.) than brown eyes.
not so much only, but like the most common. I mean I basically just googled it on my phone…at work…and only really looked down the first page. but i’ve heard that food comparisons are a) super overdone and b) kind of objectifying! which i can get, because we eat food, but that doesn’t mean i want to eat my sweetie’s chocolate brown eyes. hopefully i would rather have them keep them so that they can enjoy seeing my fabulosity with them.
Seal-dark is a description I picked up from an ATLA fanfic that has really stuck with me; doe-brown could work, too. Creekbed eyes? MAHOGANY. vanilla bean. otter-brown. black pearls??
nah I’m pretty sure the lack of poems about them is because blue eyes got preferred by white people back in the day and it hasn’t really stopped, but it’s not like I’ve done a study about it.
I used to change the diapers of a little toddler with pica (eating disorder that makes you eat weird inedible things, hers was for eating paper). Her diapers were extremely evil-smelling and her poop was white, from the bleach in the paper. It was not good for her health, I hope her parents eventually helped get her to stop.
I wonder if Ruth’s expression and Mary’s reaction right now and that line about Ruth being “something to lose” is going to remind Rachel that she said all this shit to someone who got out of the hospital for being fucking suicidal a day ago. I think it’s possible that even though she knew that she was so busy being angry she kind of just…let herself ignore that? I think it might be sinking in though in those first two panels because she doesn’t look to me to be satisfied or happy with herself. She just looks like, “Well I’ve been wanting to say that. I said it.”
I was going to make a comment about how shitty Mary is but then I saw your name and all became right with the world.
More importantly, I saw your name in conjunction with your gravatar image, which combines two things that deserve combining. I award you as much internets as I am able.
Yeah, I think seeing Ruth going all the way back to right before she was hospitalized and not bounce back after a second is hitting her right on her fears, especially as she’s been told not to intervene on her beloved’s behalf, which must make her feel extra useless.
So yeah, four traumatized folks and one bully massively empowered. Doubt that was her initial intention going in.
basically a girl moves into a new house and her parents are busy and can’t pay enough attention to her so she runs around on her own and finds a door into another house, that is exactly a mirror image of her own house, with an Other Mother. who is the perfect mother!! and also has buttons for eyes
buttons for eyes is kind of a motif throughout
i don’t want to spoil but it’s neil gaiman so there’s a lot of fun fairytale horror stuff going on
Oh, it’s from Coraline. I’ve seen bits and pieces of the movie, but never any of the parts that use that name. It honestly looked like indie garbage, but your description makes it seem like a Twilight Zone plot, and I’m into that.
hahaha. it is a bit more like a Twilight Zone plot!! a very, very gothic Twilight Zone plot. more Nightmare Before Christmas than scifi or indie, i’d say, right down to being directed by the same guy who directed Nightmare Before Christmas. which was not, as a matter of fact, Tim Burton, but rather Henry Selick.
Revenge is a sucker’s game if you have some other goal that indulging in revenge can derail you from. When your goal is to simply inflict pain and suffering on others, however…
(honestly I half-expect Joyce to come to Billie’s defense because it would be great twist and she’s made clear her respect for Billie and Ruth as a couple. Which means that another rational but completely different plot twist will appear).
haha i’ve been listening to the lily allen “fuck you” song that somebody linked. it’s very cathartic. i think i might move on to p!nk’s so what after that
i have no idea! i haven’t been caught up with steven universe since season 2 unfortunately
…and the season 1 finale (*massive* spoilers for anyone who’s not watched it), which I hope ruth and billie can sing someday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OWq38TikzU (the audio on that one is kinda crap, but every other version has… additions.)
Go ahead and try to hit me if you’re able.
Can’t you see that my relationship is stable?
I can see you hate the way we intermingle.
But I think you’re just mad ’cause you’re single.
You’re not gonna stop what we’ve made together.
We are gonna stay like this forever.
If you break us apart we’ll just come back newer.
And we’ll always be twice the gem that you are.
i’ve seen, like, most of peridot’s? but honestly like the fandom drama was real intense and i just wanted to Chill. and it can be hard for me to focus on tv anyways. *stares longingly at brooklyn nine nine* someday, precious. someday.
…i may actually be near the end of season 3?? the seasons confuse me. but i do recognize that song
…i think the last song i heard was garnet’s mindfulness song
Mary is working hard to elevate her EVIL status in this webcomic. She has stiff competition but I think the addition of “the smiles” really brings her to the next level.
Smiling evily doesn’t increase your levels of evil, and she hasn’t done anything worse today than what she’s done so far, so her levels of evil have been fairly stagnant for awhile now.
to me personally Mary is still less evil than people like Blaine or Toe Dad because they went after their daughters, the one person in the world a father is supposed to protect more than anything else. At the very least Mary never did that. She also never tried to rape anyone.
i guess the thing about Mary is that her evil is so consistent. like. she’s smart enough not to do things near people who will give her serious consequences for her behavior, but she’s not smart enough not to do them in the first place. she is a constant ever-present evil, and she modulates her evil so that she can be ever-present.
Well this segment has been a serious downer….Quick cut back to Joe! We can fun criticising his chauvinistic tendencies as he strikes out with the random girl of the week!
So at what point is someone sufficiently close to a fascist that punching them is permissible? Does plotting the systematic destruction of three queer women, to the point of driving them to suicide, count as close enough? Just asking philosophically.
Because if Mary were real, I’d be punching her right now either way.
Punching people is still illegal, no matter how fascist they are, and Mary seems like the kind of person to call the police and place assault charges if someone did punch her.
No she’s not. Her reaction to Carla being too loud instead of telling authorities of their building was to be petty and vindictive. She’s the kind of person where if you stole a pair of her shoes, she’d burn your entire closet instead of reporting it to the police. She is perfectly fine breaking the law herself to spite the people she hates even though she could easily use the rules or law against them to win far more easily as she likes to give her own personal brand of revenge.
Okay I know everyone’s very justifiably horrified atm but I really hope Billie puts a pin in Mary’s being obviously evil ad follows Ruth out. She should not be alone right now.
And neither should Joyce, the person who has been consistently growing and changing throughout this comic who has just heard that people never change and is looking pretty stunned there.
Good to know we can be unified in our hatred of Mary, at least. Jiminy Christmas, she’s supernaturally evil. Well…probably not, real humans have a great capacity to be just as horrible, but still, she’s a concentrated dose of despicable.
I don’t know if she knows about the room transfer but I don’t even think it would make a difference if she did because she’s talking about Ruth being taken away from Billie with the full knowledge that Ruth is suicidal. I think she’s basically saying to Billie, “You wouldn’t want me to do anything to mess with Ruth’s delicate mental state so she’ll remove herself from you permanently? Right? Better be nice.” Her intent probably isn’t even for Ruth to actually die but to take advantage of Billie’s concern for her fragile girlfriend. Because Mary is fucking evil.
Evil? I think that word gets thrown around a little too easily. Don’t get me wrong, Mary is a horrible person, mean spirited, a bigot, homophobic, petty, hypocritical, the list goes on…..but like “evil” is subjective. Soooooooo many characters in this comic could be called evil who just aren’t.
I don’t think having an artistic side really softens her in anyway though. I mean John Wayne Gacy liked to paint. George Bush likes to paint. I’m sure Paul Ryan has some kind of benign hobby.
I don’t think it would soften her at all just round her out more. Right now it seems like all she does is skulk around the halls waiting for a chance to get a word in edgewise. But I say we’re not supposed to because she’s a side character. We’d don’t know what Raidah does with her freetime, or Agatha, or Malaya, or Rachel, or any of the other dozens of supplementary cast.
i mean like my headcanon was that she sublimated her queer urges through drawing large-breasted women coming to jesus. but these are things i can work with, i guess
i could easily imagine her going through a lot of “gay people learning to be straight” garbage tho
idk like. mary is very much out of my experience because most homophobic christians i’ve known haven’t been anywhere near this malicious or like…aware of the world around them. like my mom can be pretty homophobic but like most of the time she chooses not to believe that gay people exist, which is why their existence despite her disbelief is such an affront to her. she doesn’t obsess over hating them, as far as i know. so like the choice to put so much work into this is….illuminating to mary’s character i guess
so like. wtf does someone like this even do. when this shit is what they do for fun, apparently
Things can be subjective to varying degrees. You may think the word “evil” gets thrown around in some cases it shouldn’t, but Mary has done pretty much everything in her power to earn it.
When someone is a horrible person, mean spirited, a bigot, homophobic, petty, hypocritical with a list that goes on and on, and they are actively trying to make life worse for others while revelling in that fact, I feel they may well be objectively evil.
So… what are your criteria for “evil,” then, if Mary doesn’t meet them?
She contributed to Ruth trying to kill herself, and ever since has been looking for ways to use it to her advantage, and AGAINST Ruth and the people who care about her. Why doesn’t that qualify as evil?
Rachel decided that verbally attacking a suicidal woman trying to heal was a good idea, so I think less of Rachel now. And Mary…well, it’s hard to find more hate for someone you already loathe entirely.
Wait, so, what is Mary planning here?
That’s not intrigue on my part, that’s confusion about, to echo Ruth some time back, what leverage Mary has here. What the hell does Mary think she can get away with?
As far as Mary knows the whole “hiding Becky” thing is still happening, and could be used for leverage. Also she can get back at Billie by tormenting Ruth second hand. And this is as easy as reminding everyone else how Ruth is a bully and is really just as bad as ever, just hiding it better.
The fact that most of the dorm hates her as well is something she seems have blocked out though..
I’m still plenty furious at Rachel. I hope panel 3 is something akin to dissatisfaction. Or maybe she’s just looking at Mary walk into the picture. maybe she’s realizing that she’s inadvertently sided with Mary. or maybe she’s not realized anything, i don’t know.
Joyce seems a little surprised. Amber is clearly devastated. Way to go Rachel. Fuck off.
Mary on the other hand doesn’t have to fuck off because I’m going to fling her into the grand canyon with my bear hands.
Imma be clear cus I don’t wanna deal with any fuckshit on this day: I’m telling Rachel to fuck off because what she did specifically yesterday was callous, maliciously fatalistic and potentially catastrophic, even going by what she did know going in. But I know her intention is within the realm of justification and it’s a personal err she can grow from eventually. or not, whatever.
Mary is never justified, perpetually evil that won’t grow because she absolutely 100% doesn’t want to. She’s the only person in that room that big speech related too, but it wouldn’t have mattered because she never bothered to be repentant in the first place, and it’s evident she’s only gonna go back without any remorse.
Er go, Rachel can fuck off because she either improves herself or gets outta my face and that’s a win-win for me, whereas Mary, who is in only the barest and most vile of tangents even closely related to Rachel, is not willing to change and actively and purposefully the most hateful recurring character in this strip and the only clear way to be rid of her is if I ensure she is flung into a gorge.
You might struggle letting go if she gets caught on your claws, you might have to scrape her on the canyon wall a little to get her off, just be careful not to break a claw.
Rachel, you don’t look so pleased. What’s wrong? Did it not feel good verbally punching someone who doesn’t punch back? Does it hurt, seeing that Mary seems to think you’re on her side now? Does it feel bad, seeing how Amber looks. Gosh, golly, who could possibly have foreseen that saying what you said might be a horrible thing. Who could have known?
Yet she lashes out at Ruth, maybe because Ruth/Ruth's behaviour remind her of something else. Maybe witnessed someone else going back to their abuser because "they've changed now" only to be tortured again?
So my guess is – she is confused because she's discovering that you can be an abuser AND a victim, and she doesn't know how to handle that, because she wanted to attack the abuser and is slowly coming to the realization that she actually abused the victim instead. And well, she's young too.
Guess she's gonna feel shitty in a couple of days, but feeling shitty about past actions and growing up because of it is kind of the core theme of DoA. More growth for everyone, yay!
Except Mary, possibly.
She doesn’t look pleased because she didn’t say it for pleasure, she said it because she is displeased. She expressed her distaste about things not changing (“you get to keep her (Billie)”, “you get to keep your job”, “what you did won’t go away/will always be there”). Why should she be pleased?
Yeah.. This looks like classic fallout from blowing up at someone, in public, without thinking. Rachel =/= Mary. only Mary would say something like that and be utterly pleased by everyone’s reactions, like she is right now.
I have nothing to add here, but I didn’t see you saying hi to me on yesterday’s comic until just now, and I would hate to be rude. So hello to you, too, Andy.
From Andy
And no one said anything! I’m to angry to hate Mary right now how is this possible. All of the expletives Rachael. I get this is probably going to be part of a not necessarily Joe-related arc for her. As much as I am THRILLED, that she’ll get enough screen time to have and express genuine flaws… Props tp Willis, she is officially out of the background, with a bang no less. I’ve officially gone from mad to jealous of your writing chops. :p
Okay so people seem confused on Mary’s plan here. I think her plan is to basically hold Ruth’s fragile mental state over Billie. Basically saying, “Be nice or I’ll do my best to make sure Ruth either a) ends up hospitalized again or b) actually kills herself.” She knows what buttons to push. She got a great example of what to say from Rachel five seconds ago.
Right, but is the rest of the dorm gonna put up with that?
As, oh, how about that, Rachel put it at the beginning of Book 7, this dorm can multitask when it comes to hate.
There is still the benefit of Billie being able to go to higher ups and report Mary for suicide baiting and the bigoted comments to Carla. Billie may have something to lose, but she has the better weapon if Mary tries anything. The rest of the floor and Chloe have only half the information, so Billie would be effectively sinking any hope Mary had for higher standing among anyone. That’s why Mary didn’t report her for assault after getting punched.
…I’m trying to think what would be the more satisfying outcome there. Ruth agreeing to help in some way that takes the wind out of Mary’s sails in regards to her… generally everything. Or Ruth being able to just go “no” and walk off to leave Mary to her fate.
carla: “i’m not going to let you persuade me into being a hero. nope, you gotta learn how to clean up your own messes sometime. i know that i’m the only competent gunslinger/engineer around here, but i can’t keep bailing your ass out of the fire. i mean. i know mary, and you know mary, and we both know she’s lower than a snake, but i won’t let you persuade me into helping you make a plan to deal with her. although i’ve always said you can’t do a good creampie to the face too many times. and i have been working on some drafts for this. okay, you persuaded me, i’ll help.” -looks off into the distance- “it is my lot in life to carry this burden of…ugh….feelings. don’t tell anybody.”
ruth: “i didn’t even say anything.”
carla: “and that’s the way we’re going to keep it.”
Well, didn’t she has premartial hanky panky in It’s Walky and got pregnant? I haven’t finished reading but there was some hints in the latest parts I read that she has started getting morning sickness
Mary — you’re the ‘holier-than-thou’, everything-by-the-Good-Book character, right? Try re-reading Matthew 18, specifically verses 21-22, and then come back and see me.
I find it strange nonetheless given the fact that we put emphasis on certain words and rank them in some form of hierarchy, with the word “fuck” somewhere near the top, at least in my experience.
There’s also probably some notion of censorship I could discuss, but that would be utterly pointless given the fact that this website is technically private property, I’m not American and therefore don’t hold quite as high a standard of free speech, and I’m incredibly tired.
Most people rank anti-women slurs much lower on the bad-word scale than being a slur really calls for, because they’re pretty normalized. Fuck is a pretty neutral-value word that targets no one particular group.
Fair enough. And this would be a fairly interesting discourse to get into if I didn’t have to type around words in case of possible censorship (let’s call a spade a spade, even if it doesn’t come with all the negative connotations). Well, as I said, I’m incredibly tired, so I’ll bid you farewell and maybe there will be some other form of discussion we can have in the future.
I believe it’s not so much that it’s necessarily a worse word than some that aren’t censored, but that it got filtered some years back in response to being heavily overused over one particular strip.
Now it’s mostly just amusing. Especially when people go beyond the filter to talk about percussion instruments.
Just thought I’d mention that this is not something new here on this board but has been the status quo for at least three or four years now. And off-hand, I can think of at least three or four ways I could probably get around it if I really wanted to.
Remember how she helped put Ruth in the hospital and the gloated about it? She has already done something, and I guarantee you what she’s going to do next will be just as vile.
Just wondering.. Somebody mentioned there were some Mary apologists hanging around, making excuses for her. Making excuses how? What kinds of justifications could you have for this kind of behavior?
If I had to guess (and this requires attempting to comprehend an eldritch state of mind), something along the lines of “She’s only doing what she feels is right.”
Does she actually think the things she does are right? Or is it an end justifies the means situation where her religious beliefs get enacted on earth so she figures she’ll be reware in the hereafter?
Basically, I’m wondering just how self aware Mary is.
like. mike is self aware. he does the shitty stuff he does because he wants to, but he has, like, reasons and perspective and insight.
mary? she does this malicious bullshit out of. i dont know. spite. hatred. malice. she has no control, she just friggin’ goes for it at every conceivable opportunity. i don’t think there’s a whole lot of thought put into ethics, just whatever she can get away with.
idk it’s all so pointlessly cruel that i personally am just thrown for a total loop as to the inner workings of her mind. i hope she gets a villain monologue or something just to answer that question
I do have to give Mary a slow sarcastic clap here. *slow clap* She’s really out done herself here. I thought she’d back off and regroup after the punch but she doubled down. I doubt anything will happen. She might even get punched next strip, but hey kudos for determination.
I wonder if “alliance/reaching out” is gonna end up a theme for Book 7.
Sal, Amazi-Girl and Dorothy tracking down “Ryan”.
Leslie giving Becky a home.
And, perhaps, Joyce, Amber and Carla forming an anti-Mary force.
I don’t know if I’ve hated a fictional character as much as I hate Mary. Just seeing that shit-eating smile feels me with rage. I think the reason for this is that I’ve actually met people like her, people who believe everything they do is righteous, even when it’s clearly wrong because they believe in Jesus. It doesn’t matter the pain they cause, because the only people getting hurt are the sinners who deserve it.
…Does Mary actually have an angle here besides just being an asshole for the sake of it (not that this would be surprising)? Everything she had on them in terms of blackmail material has already been exposed. Billie might have something to lose, but Mary has nothing to gain.
Ruth just promised to never hit Mary again for any reason. So now Mary knows she has carte blanche to be as much of a dick to her as possible. Either Ruth just sits and takes it and Mary gets to enjoy that, or Ruth loses it and hits her again, thus “proving” that Rachel was right all along.
like ruth never really had to hit her. she has other options. keeping records of mary’s conversations with her, talking to Chloe, reporting the things she does, etc
ruth doesn’t really have to do anything mary wants her to do anymore, because all the blackmail mary had is gone. all mary has left is guilt-tripping, and if ruth can figure out how to weather through that mary is gonna be an unpleasant force that can be dealt with by not giving a shit
the art is in figuring out how not to give a shit, and ruth really isn’t in a good place mentally for that
Granted, Mary could file charges… if she’s still able to. (And, when you’re dealing with Nazis, punching is ineffective – they’re not going to be embarrassed, it just martyrs them without eliminating the threat. Either counter them with ignoring them, rhetoric, or deadly force, nothing violent in between rhetoric or deadly force.)
And, Willis’s reason for nobody dying is because the mourning would take over the whole comic… but nobody will mourn Mary.
You know, I wish this on very few people, given that it’s the single most awful thing I’ve ever felt in my life (tied with the death of my grandfather) … But you know what? I fucking hope Mary has a panic attack. She alone deserves one.
Oddly enough, lying (even self-deceit) has never been something Mary is good at. For someone who waves their piety and supposed moral superiority around like a flag, she is curiously open in her malignance.
I really don’t get it. Does Mary really have nothing better to do than making peoples lives worse?
Where does she get the time for these things?
If this is her hobby, then perhaps the floor could pitch in to buy her a gaming console or something so that she can spend her time on better things than being uncool to people.
She draws anime Ronald Reagans and studies sometimes. But the amount of LGBT+ nearby calls upon her primal nature so she must hunt for the blood of the innocent as is the call of the Demon Lord that requires fresh sacrifice every blood moon.
What do you mean that isn’t what is happening and that she is just using God as an excuse to torture people because she is sadistic and petty and vindictive.
She just gave a speech about how people never change. I think that uncludes people like Mary. Which is a very defeatist attitude, but about Mary, she might just be right…
Mary, my dearest, darling girl. Having something to lose means having something worth defending. And Billie is not the type to do that by keeping her head down. You may wish to tread lightly.
Or not. Not is good, too. Just wait for me to pop some popcorn, before you do anything.
Pinpricks: I want to focus for a second on Panels 1-3 Ruth, Panel 2 Billie, Panel 3 Joyce, and Panel 4 Amber, because by now we’ve established a visual language for full dissociation in trauma response for Ruth, which is the pinprick black eyes.
And in each one of their faces in those moments, we see those same pinprick eyes. Ruth is terrible because we’ve seen what she’s put up with today and how hard she’s fought to cling to the tiny shred of functionality she tried to rescue with 3 days of hard work only to have the last piece of it blasted out of her hands here when all of her armor had already been carefully stripped away by “sir” grampus.
And it’s why cathartic tear-downs of suicidal folks, even ones you see as evil is a really dangerous thing, because you really are ending up playing around with someone’s life, which is a very fraught thing.
That doesn’t mean accept the abuse of folks who use suicide attempts to trap you and avoid speaking your mind or getting to a point of safety. Doesn’t even necessarily mean you don’t let them have both barrels with no regrets.
But it means you have to acknowledge and accept the fire you are playing with.
And that becomes especially clear when we note the spread pinpricks. That Panel 2 for Billie is a waking nightmare. We know she’s been terrified of not being able to help or save Ruth. That she feels weak and helpless. And now for what must be the what, the 2nd or 3rd time today watched her girlfriend be shredded apart and not be able to help?
And worse yet, this seems to be the one that delivered the killing blow to Ruth’s newborn functionality. Like, every other one, she’s managed to crawl her way back up to green eyes after a couple of panels. But in this one she’s staggering away just as pinprick as she was yesterday and so Billie’s night now becomes a nightmare, where she’ll not be sure her girlfriend will be able to… well, will be able to anything tomorrow and she’s thrust right back into the worst of it. It’s terrifying for her.
And Amber, looking down, pinprick eyes, static frame. It’s a confirmation that Rachel’s chosen mode of attack has absolutely devastated her and just grabbed ahold of every last one of her fears. And she may be the worst one of all, because we know she doesn’t have much of a support network at all and tends to internalize everything and bury it rather than seek support.
And last but not least, poor Joyce. She was doing really well a few panels ago, but again, that Rachel job was designed to hit exceptionally hard for her as well. She’s been on a redemption path and has only just realized the inherent violence of some of the ways in which she was raised to believe and support. She needs to believe that she can make it right and in many ways she has done so amazingly well.
And Rachel, all to tear down one mentally ill woman, just slammed as hard as she could on that fear that that is impossible.
And well, here’s the thing, that’s something that’s going to hit especially hard for Joyce because she was raised in a field of Christianity where people can be “saved”, yes, but also where Calvinism reigns and one jaunt on the path of sin can make one irredeemable forever.
And she already worries that she’s damned to hell by her transformation and now Rachel says she’s damned as well in being true to a secular morality.
It’s a chorus of suffering that was entirely preventable.
I get why Rachel felt the need to say what she did. She may even believe some of it. And I hope one day we see her find out what the full context of what she did when she did it was and can sort out her emotions about that. I don’t know if we ever will. I don’t know if she would accept it even if she did.
But I hope she gets a chance to understand so she doesn’t make this sort of mistake in the future.
I find the fact that Mary has a character design that is very equivalent to what I find attractive in real life actually multiplies my hatred of her. Because attractive people tend to get away with more in our society.
Panel 2: This one hits, because yeah, the garbage brain of depression always feels like the only one that tells any real truth and Rachel just reinforced the fuck out of it after “sir” grampus added his own steel plates to the edifice.
But that’s the real lie. What Rachel said was bullshit, just as what Ruth’s brain is screaming now or what “sir” grampus screamed at her before was bullshit.
But it’s going to be a lot of years before she ends up fully believing that.
Panel 3: I want to believe that this face on Rachel is a sign that it’s dawning on her how much she just fucked up, that she went too far. That she just retraumatized someone fresh out of the hospital, that there’s a lot of pinprick eyes and devastation that wasn’t there a minute ago. That the only person seemingly happy after this affair is the person who nearly murdered the person she was yelling at.
But I’m also somewhat frustrated by her. Like, again, hate people who’ve hurt you. I’m not going to tone police that, but she keeps having little moments that are just infuriating.
Whether it be glaring at Ruth after her little rant as if she was expecting her to… what exactly? Break down weeping? Admit to her perfidy? Voluntarily walk out of her life but not in the permanent way that is most likely after an action like that?
Or whether it be moments like this. Like, she saw Mary pull her little not-at-all-subtle act of passive-aggression and knows more or less the full story of what she tried to do and why. And she’s seeing her as the only one supporting her and happy. But does she turn to Mary and let her have anything? Does she move to support Joyce and Amber who clearly have been collateral damages to her rant? Does she try and reach out to Billie, the woman she just got through claiming was in an abusive relationship and needed to get out?
Nope. Not a single thing. And she doesn’t do anything here when Mary makes her horrifying statement at the end of this. And it just reinforces something that’s been niggling at me, which is just how cowardly and selective Rachel’s actions are. Like, for someone who claimed she could multitask, we don’t see that. For someone who is acting like the brave defender of the truth, she sure is only waiting until the people she attacks are at their most vulnerable and unable to inconvenience her in any way.
And that’s whatever. Not everyone needs to risk their well-being to escape or tell off an abuser and sometimes after so much disempowerment, you need your catharsis where you can get it, cause you’ll never get a real win that’ll make up for what happened to you.
But it nonetheless bothers me. Maybe it’s because I’ve just spent months risking quite a bit and getting the physical and mental health consequences for that risk to stand up to a person with intense amounts of power over me. Maybe it’s because I’ve seen too many people with Trump work so damn hard to normalize fascism and our complete dissolution of democracy because resisting anything is scary and it’s easier to just beat up on women who voted for Hillary because they were not pure enough.
Maybe it’s finally seeing the exit of my shitty head-of-school only to have the teachers who intentionally kept their heads down and stayed silent to protect themselves get all puffed up about how “all” of “our” hard work paid off and aren’t we “all” so glad.
It’s petty, but it makes me less forgiving of Rachel’s flaws in her approach here, because I’m not fully believing in her supposed convictions, that this is a rant she couldn’t have kept inside from all her pain. That this wasn’t, in the end, more about tearing Ruth down when she was vulnerable, unlikely to strike back, and an acceptable target than about actually standing up to a bully and an abuser (and Ruth was very much was a bully to her floor and was very much an abuser to Billie before they first got together).
have we ever seen rachel do anything supportive? have we seen a shred of empathy? all I can remember right now is her tearing people down.
There’s a quote I half-remember, but can’t find on google. it goes something like: “To destroy is easy. If you would be great, learn to build.”
The closest I did find was this: “To destroy is easier than to create, and that is why so many people are ready to demonstrate against what they reject. But what would they say if one asked them what they wanted instead?” — http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/449432-l-ska-a-smet
Yeah. I like that quote. Even though Rachel isn’t obligated to Ruth, in general it feels better for her to blow off steam than walk away. I’ve always said to get better and better, you have to ask yourself the difficult questions. There’s no other way of getting around it.
Rachel is reminding me of my father here, and not in good ways. All of the determinism, absolutism, cowardice, and complete and utter certainty that she, in particular knows the One True Way Of The World.
My father is one of those people who always has to pretend to being the Big Damn Hero. He will make damn certain that anyone within earshot knows he, the middle-aged asthmatic nearsighted hard of hearing guy with arthritic hips, would be their damn savior in the event that “tyranny” strikes. Any time there is a story in the news about some authority figure abusing said authority, you get treated to a rant on how he would’ve given that asshole what for, on how his kids would’ve had his unquestioning support in such a situation and generally how he views himself as a virtuous Crusader for Justice ™.
Over here in reality-land, every. single. time. he – or someone in his family – has encountered an authority figure throwing their weight around, he folds. When I got sexually harassed by airport security at 16 in front of him (middle-aged airport security dudes explicitly threatening to strip-search me on trumped-up reasons if I did not submit to a pat-down from said dude so he could fondle my 16YO chest fat and implicitly threatening to do a whole lot more than just strip-search) and protested, he told me to shut up and take it (in exactly so many words). When my sibling had a teacher who was stalking and harassing her, he insisted she must be making it up until such time as proof surfaced (another student recorded some of the class), and then he insisted she must’ve brought it on herself somehow, and once another kid filed suit and won for harassment from the same teacher, it was still my sib’s fault because y’know if she’ hadn’t been so damn emotional about a middle-aged dude devoting hours out of the day to try to make up excuses to get her expelled for literally no reason, he’d’ve believed her sooner. Could go on.
The literal ONLY time he would ever take a stand was when it was safe and the hard part had already been done. To use a comics analogy: He’s the bystander who yells “Let that be a lesson to you!” and kicks the already-restrained villain after the hero has finished thwarting the villain’s plan, as if to cover the fact that he was cowering and pissing himself in a corner not five minutes earlier.
And the thing is, I do not view cowardice, in itself, as a fatal personality flaw. Hell, I consider myself a coward. Cowardice is a personality trait and survival mechanism rolled up in one, and if you are a coward, it’s probably because you’ve learned the hard way the cost of not playing it safe and keeping your head down. I don’t consider it the moral ill that so many seem to.
However, what I have negative time for is hypocrisy and deceit. The Rachels and my dads of the word act tough and strong to hide their cowardice. They would be the first to proclaim from the highest mountain the evils of cowardice, and the first to urge jumping to a war footing… so long as they don’t have to be first over the breech. And that’s what pisses me off. The demand that everyone else live up to standards you yourself cannot meet.
In that respect, Rachel and Mary are two sides of the same fucking coin (just as Roz and Mary are two sides of the same coin on the ends-justify-the-means belief. Roz is what happens when that is used to good ends, and Mary is what happens when it’s not).
The thing about the Rachels and the my dads, as well, is that they never consider the implications of their rants – because it’s not about whatever they’re ranting about, to them. It’s about puffing themselves up, and making themselves look good and feel like the Big Damn Hero. Collateral damage doesn’t exist because in that moment other people are just NPCs in their hero’s quest. If you do have the audacity to get hurt or upset by their actions, well that’s just your own fault – in a superhuman feat of projection, they will insist that you wanted to “misinterpret” what they were actually talking about, even if you’re taking exception to something they literally just said in so many words. You’re looking for an excuse to get upset and feel angry so you can feel good about yourself and feel superior.
And they will never, ever admit they made a mistake. Big Damn Heroes don’t make mistakes, after all. Can’t have people thinking they’re just an ordinary, small, cowardly person who’s as fallible as anyone else, after all.
… and to be clear: I don’t hate Rachel on this front.
But the hypocrisy runs deep in her, and it’s fucking showing in spades.
I mean, hell – I don’t like Roz, but at least Roz admits openly that she’d use people. She’s honest about her duplicity in a weird way. Hypocrites just piss me the fuck off. You do you, but have the fucking integrity to own up to what “doing you” is and the fallout of that.
Like, I still stand behind saying a few days ago that it seems like Rachel has first-hand experience of abuse – she’s too angry and too close to it for this to be an academic thing to her. And that is a heavy mitigating factor in my opinion of her.
But fuuuuck. She just burned through all the goodwill I was willing to extend her earlier and then some.
Rachel, Rachel, realize who is on the same side as you here and exercise some fucking self-awareness of whether you really want to be aligned with Mary of all fucking people.
*Appropriate gesture of support* And yeah, that also makes a lot of sense and would explain why I’m so bothered by her behavior as that type of inconsistent hypocrisy is one of those things that heavily sets off one of my alters.
Oh, oh my god. I’m horrified that those things happened to you and your sibling, neither of you should have had to deal with that *offer gesture of support*. Also, I want to say that you’re very brace for being able to share that with us. Thank you for being comfortable sharing, and I hope this can continue to be a safe place for things like that.
“Whether it be glaring at Ruth after her little rant as if she was expecting her to… what exactly? Break down weeping? Admit to her perfidy? Voluntarily walk out of her life but not in the permanent way that is most likely after an action like that?”
The way I read her body language makes me think she was expecting her to… to fight back.
It’s sound silly to us because we know a lot about Ruth’s inner world and vulnerablities, but it’s like… when we, as humans, see a person as a villian or an enemy, it’s easy for us to paint them as mustache-twirling monsters with no inner struggles or fears or thoughts (Yes, even with the suicidal attemps, our brains are very good lairs sometimes. It’s a human fault). We’re not all as bad as Robin about it, but on some level it’s easy to see yourself as a heroic underdog and your enemies as superstrong villians you need EVERYTHING to beat. and it’s espacially easy to do it with an abusive R.A. who has projected an image of terror and power for the two years you’ve known her and only became “the depressed person who attempted suicide” a few days ago.
I think she was expecting Ruth to answer her, to fight back in some way, to deny her accusations – and that’s why she wanted to make such a big dramatic, and maybe overgeneralizing speech from it (I mean her speech is defos overgeneralizing, but maybe it’s overgeneralizing her own beliefs for the sake of making a point against Ruth). She went in to defeat Ruth the Dragon in her weakest state and using her most powerful attack, but she didn’t quite expect her to crumble against it like she did. (And not even in a big show-y guilt tripping type of defeat… like if she did start crying and apologizing, it’ll be easy to chalk it up to emotional manipulation. Ruth’s not even doing anything that will obviously get her sympathy and outright stopped Billie from defending her)
Will it make her regret some of the things she said? Will it make her realize how much her words could be LETHAL to Ruth? It did seem to soften her expression in the other panels, but I don’t know about pernament changes, my money is that she’s still more likely to learn her lesson from all the collateral damage she just did
That makes a lot of sense and I think you’re right about that. And it would make sense given the persona Ruth worked so hard to project up until very recently as that persona was covering up a lot of stuff happening under the surface.
The way she’s looking at Mary in panel three gives me the impression that Rachel is beginning to have the beginnings of an “Oh shit” moment. And given what Mary said in the last panel and what little we’ve seen of Rachel in the past, I have a feeling when she turns around and sees Amber and Joyce that “Oh shit” moment will become complete. Rachel needs to make things right with Joyce and Amber as quickly as she can. And in the eventual future come to a truce or understanding with Ruth. As in Rachel can still hate Ruth, can still not give her a second chance, but admit she went to far at the meeting and just agree to have as little to deal with each other as possible. Like Cerb said before it’s ok for people to recognize that they’re toxic to each other and it’s ok if Rachel hates Ruth forever, but Rachel needs to realize the very treat harm she did here. And I think part of what might help make that eventually happen is what Ruth says in the second panel “Being able to lie to yourself seems like a neat trick, actually.” It feels like a recognition of Rachel’s accusation while also saying that Ruth doesn’t lie to herself (of course we know that Ruth does lie to herself, but not about what Rachel’s accusing her of lying about), that she doesn’t have any illusions about what her actions were or about how people view her.
I think it’s worth pointing out that the last panel indicates that Mary is getting up in Billie’s face and quietly letting loose that last line with the way the text bubble is wavy.
Rachel also doesn’t really know anything about Joyce or Amber to figure out why what she said was so awful to them.
Panels 4-5: Welp, that clears up the last shred of doubt that maybe Mary didn’t realize that her actions of stripping away Ruth’s entire support network, feelings of hope, and options would lead to a potential suicide attempt and possible death.
Cause, yeah, this last line of hers is a full and cognizant statement on her part that she understands that Ruth’s depression is something she can press on to kill Ruth. And she is stating quite plainly that she does not fear Billie because she can kill the woman she loves if she tries to stop her on her reign of terror against every queer and non-her-type-of-christian in the hall.
It’s a violent threat. And well, it’s not uncommon. I’ve spoken before about the folks who collect trans kid suicide attempts like downed planes on a WWI fighter plane. About those who play games fucking with the mental health of anyone who admits to depression because they see it as “cleansing the weak from the world”.
Because for those who hate a certain category of people, suicide can be a bloodless way to “solve” a “problem”. Similar to how bigots of the past saw AIDS as a “solution”. A means of directly killing someone that cannot be fully connected to you and which you are unlikely to ever see jailtime for, but gives you the rush over having the power of life and death over someone.
And while I would love to limit this to just assholes like Mary who do this, there are whole movements of people who work tirelessly to do every small cruelty they can to try and encourage young queer kids to kill themselves. Whether it be attacking any representation on any show the kids may watch, fighting hard against anti-bullying ordinances, passing ordinances that make it near impossible for kids to believe in a future, encouraging parents to disown or abuse their kids to “fix” them or encourage them to become “holy”, or trying to shut down mental health supports wherever you can.
There’s good money in being that pointlessly hopelessly cruel. So of course Mary is all of that. Of course she does it while putting the least believable patina of “aren’t I such a bigger person who is so glad Ruth is okay” there is.
And of course Billie’s threat is absolutely worthless to stop her. Because Billie has a conscience and is not willing to get anywhere as vile as Mary is willing to do in order to stop her.
And sadly for all parties, this whole affair has shown that the forces downstairs are asleep at the wheel, so even if she’s told on, it’s unlikely she’ll face a single consequence. And as long as she keeps punching down and avoiding direct violence, she can coast on that edge trying to kill off those she sees as polluted because of the way they are or the way they love.
And the worst part is Marys are a dime a dozen. They are everywhere. And if you are queer, chances are you’ll meet at least a dozen of them in person before you even see your 18th birthday.
And it sucks that we make young queer and other marginalized folks survive this gauntlet of murderers. That we don’t value them enough to actually do something about the harassers, the bigots, the out and out fascists.
That we don’t value them enough to care when they die in the shadows without ever getting a chance to truly live.
is it just me or are most of the links on that site broken once you leave the main page? (also, anyone remember the canadian equivalent? I’m sure there are several, but can’t remember the names)
I’ve said before that my close personal clique is entirely LGBT+, and growing up oh boy were those bully-to-suicide murders everywhere. None of my friends died at any stage of their schooling, and a few of them said that I helped because I was the only straight cis person in the group (I only recently started questioning my orientation and think I might be biromantic or something like that) and as a result I helped remind them that not all straight people wanted them dead, that there were straight people who did love them, and that I was always there as an emotional rock when they needed me. I remember a lot of lunch periods in middle school and high school comforting a crying friend because some bully had said they were only good for burning in hell, of getting detention because someone broke down during class and I followed them to the bathroom and was a shoulder to cry on, and of college nights spent talking on the phone to a friend who needed to hear a friendly voice while theirs was trembling. Those aren’t happy memories but they are cathartic, defining memories for me. And they’ve filled me with a disgusted hate for people like Mary. If souls are really, then those kinds of people who think driving someone to suicide is fun don’t have them.
I always wonder how Mary can be well….so Mary despite apparently being on an art program; I mean yeah the alot of pretendiousness in the arts but there’s alot of discussions about the rights of the maginazed and lots of projects about the celebration of women rights , and the liberation of sexuality , at least in my experience
I hope Mary’s karmatic payback is swift. That Rachel’s karmatic payback is also swift, but not as swift as Mary’s, and that Joyce and Amber get the support network they each need. also, I hope someone breaks Mary’s kneecaps. And then that she ends up with severe anxiety, and gets told “Why are you so anxious? There’s nothing to worry about.” and has her mental health issues dismissed as callously as she’s behaving.
You know, if there’s a word filter against a specific word but not most other swears, maybe you should wonder why it is in place and maybe find some other way to express your opinion.
Just saying.
If Mary is in the room, do we even need other people on the list? Excluding horrible parents, I think the bongo formerly known as Ryan is her only competition for people who are so horrible anyone else look lovely in their presence.
I did say excluding horrible parents. The list would be too long ranging from Toedad to Naomi, so I tried to narrow it down to fellow students they have to deal with on campus.
I still say Mary is a psychopath. Not that it in any way lessens her responsibility for what it is but that it fits her personality very well. Her inability to empathize in any way, her superficial charm, her desire for public approval, her need for power over others, and her complete disregard for long term gains over short term cruel enjoyment.
Mary can be neurotypical still express very little empathy, fake charm, have a desire for approval, have a desire for power and be so petty and vindictive that she blinds herself to more effective and long-term solutions because these are all traits that can occur in abusers and almost all of them are neurotypical with less than 1% being neurodivergent.
Psychopaths and people with ASPD (which is a personality disorder that is similar but not the same as psychopathy that tends to be confused with it sometimes) would probably look at Mary here and go ‘wtf is wrong with you’ like everyone else because they’re often victims of abuse themselves and Mary is a manipulative abuser to pretty much everyone she doesn’t like.
Why in the world would you believe attributing a condition notable for reduced empathy and known narcissism that I would hope Mary would get help for to be a condition that renders all mentally ill people to be psychopaths. That’s a bizarre and disturbing comparison, especially as the person which Mary is abusing is mentally ill herself.
Mind you, I believe it’s a much more common condition in RL than people believe and that large poritons of the people who have it live perfectly normal lives. Including the guy who did a study of the neuro-chemistry and found out he was one (but was a perfectly normal family man aside from having a loud personality).
I’ve said this before, but it is entirely possible for a neurotypical person to be as awful as Mary. A sturdy belief system can reinforce basically any shitty behavior.
Mary is a everyday vicious asshole convinced that God is on her side.
The reason is that it contributes to the association of mental illness with violence AND decoupling neurotypical people from it. A lot of people automatically jump to thinking about anyone who does a horrifying thing as mentally ill. They divide the world into “us” and “them” where “us” are blissfully normal and fine neurotypical people who never do terrible wrongs because anyone who does is automatically sent over to “them”.
I don’t know how you can fail to spot the problem with this worldview.
(This is what leads to discrimination, hatred, segregation, all the stigma and inability to find a job or stable housing, to people feeling justified in refusing to associate with mentally ill people, and specifically psychotic people – after all, if every single “psychopath” belongs to that category, it only makes sense to make yourself definitely safe by not being around “weirdos”, right?)
(“Being a horrible person” is not a mental illness)
eeeh yeah no. This is good old neurotypical “I think these people are not really people and therefore refuse to empathize with them” bs. REALLY not seeing any sign of actual mental illness there.
A) Psychopathy is not a real mental illness. The thing you’re probably thinking of is called Anti Social Personality Disorder.
B) Correct me if I’m wrong, but generally when referring to empathy in these disorders, they’re referring to the ability to feel other’s emotions in a sort of echo, NOT the ability to like other people and want them to be happy. In fact, part of treatment for ASPD is to give them some sort of (supervised) nurturing role, like with an animal or teaching children a skill. The idea being that by teaching them things will make them like that role and want the animal/kids to succeed. From there, you can use people they like to discourage certain behaviour in terms of self interest (Ex. “I like X. If I do Y, they said they’ll be sad. I don’t want X to be sad. Better not do Y.”)
C) Even when it WAS a thing, psychopathy was thought to be caused primarily by genetic predisposition, to have no empathy (in the sense above) and be very good at hiding it. Mary is terrible at hiding the fact she’s a shitheel.
I stand corrected. Thank you for educating me. I also believe strongly neurotypical people are far more likely to be violent and dangerous than the reverse.
Umm I have a question and I want to apologize before hand if this offends anybody but I really need to correct so ignorance on my part that could cause me to offend or hurt someone unintentionally: what was the difference between psychopathy and sociopathy? And is sociopathy still considered a thing? Once again, I want to apologize if this question comes off as insulting or offensive. That is not the intent. But I do recognize that this could be very offensive and that’s why I want to avoid making a mistake involving these words in conversation.
No, that’s not an offensive question. It shouldn’t be offensive to not know things. It’s a genuine one and many people are not well versed in the knowledge of psychological disorders (including myself and a few people here).
According to the DSM V what most laypeople think of as sociopathy/psychopathy falls on the spectrum of AntiSocial Personality Disorder. I’m too lazy to summarize, so I’ll link.Hopefully the site lets you have access to have access to the article, it’s an interesting one:
Back when those diagnoses were a real thing (because, again, they are not any longer) these were the differences
– Psychopathy was primarily caused by biological factors, sociopathy was caused primarily by environmental factors.
– A psychopath had no empathy or attachments to people (so, even with people they like, if they leave or die, there may be little to no reaction to it) as described above and was very good at hiding it. A sociopath, by contrast, had a little empathy as described above and a few attachments and was TERRIBLE at hiding their lack, often resulting in angry or violent outbursts.
– A psychopath tended to be more clinical and calculating, while a sociopath tended to be more emotional and seen as hot blooded, being more nervous and angry.
– A sociopath has a very different mode of morality than the populace (often based in self interest) while a psychopath simply did not CARE whether something was right or wrong, as long as it served self interest.
Again though, neither of these a real disorder anymore, and the preoccupation is more pop/’dark underground’ psychology. Major personalty disorder theorists, like Millon, have said that it is not a real thing, and Antisocial Personality Disorder is the correct term.
So… what did Ruth do that hurt Rachel so bad that she was the one calling Ruthless out as still a monster?
I mostly remember Rachel being a witness and not a participant before this scene and could use a refresher on whether I should read this as a supporting friend attacking a bully or a victim proclaiming the damage behind the hurt is still oncoming.
Nothing that we actually know of. We have never seen Ruth harm Rachel. It is more likely past experiences haunting Rachel than Ruth herself and she is taking it out on Ruth by being absolutely merciless to her at the one time in which Ruth has no fight to stand up to her with with absolutely no care about how much her words could have and did hurt everyone except Mary.
I’m seeing a lot of people wondering what Ruth has done to Rachel personally. We don’t know their history yet, but I would just like to point out that, assuming Rachel has been a victim of abuse in the past, it is completely and utterly traumatizing to be forced to watch others experience abuse.
For example, say dad abuses mom but not the children. The children are still traumatized because they are witnessing dad to terrible things, even though they might not be the literal targets. They still develop the coping mechanisms required to not be abused, because they have no way of knowing if they will ever become targets.
It’s entirely possible that all of Ruth’s antics while she was depressed Rachel has been watching and has been triggering for her at certain points.
Like, I can be in situations where I’m not living with my abuser and I even hear someone else being screamed at and trashed and I completely have the emotional memory of being screamed at and trashed, even though the screamer is not talking to me. It’s the reason I can never work in environments where the boss is a giant asshole, because I simply cannot endure being yelled at and treated like I’m a total idiot or watching people being treated that way nearly everyday anymore.
Oh, look at that, Rachel. You hurt everyone in the room who was trying to improve themselves and empowered the abuser who has no intention of improving. Good job with your high-and-mighty SJW bit.
There may be fatalists among people who work for social justice, but I think most would say we’re not fated to be misogynistic, or homophobic, or abusive, or violent. We can do better, if we try.
you are the first person i’ve seen in the last couple of days to get caught by the filter system and not try to spell out what their original word was, CONGRATULATIONS You WIN SOME KIND OF A PRIZE
I wonder if we can use the anti swear system to make a bunch of swears make sense. 😛
For instance “I play the bongo and another percussion instrument”.
Yeah at this point I’m convinced Rachel has been abused before. Suddenly quieting after a massive rant, and her face in the first two panels, speaks that this is way more personal than she’d care to admit.
Not like it makes what she said any better, or that it hurt people any less, but I think I understand it and I hope (and am hopeful) that Rachel won’t just become a Mary-type villain out of this.
She’s just been told she’s a violent thug whose every attempts at fixing the poison she’s been saddled with from her dad are just lies she tells herself.
If you think that is acceptable please stay the fuck away from me.
What Amber needs to hear is that being Amazi-Girl is not safe for her or others, and that it’s also not a healthy outlet for her anger. What she does not need to hear is that people are irreemable. Hearing that will add to the feelings of inadequacy and her fears that her anger make her the same as her father and will only worsen her mental state. It may also make her, as Amazi-Girl, harsher on those she fights because if there is no redemption, then they cannot change and be redeemed either so they need to face her full wrath.
Absolutely not. This is the last thing Amber needs to hear. It reinforces all her worst problems. Her belief that Amber is a horrible person and the need to dump all the bad stuff onto that alter to keep Amazi-girl pure, since any taint or failure is permanent. Makes AG even harsher both, as Andy said, because her targets can’t change, but also because she can’t allow anything less than purity in herself.
That speech was the opposite of what Amber needed to hear. In my opinion, I think Amber needs treatment. She has to believe that she’s not this awful atrocious human being. That way she can maybe believe that she can throw off her father’s chains.
But the amount of support she needs to get even to the place where she doesn’t blame herself for one thing that happens to her in her life is beyond the scope of anything anybody there can give her. I hope one day she can make it, but the journey she’s on is one that doesn’t get solved in just one day by listening to just one speech.
Yeah, I think she was just done with her rant. The way she threw Billie under the bus in the before-last strip does NOT sound to me like she has intimate experience with this. She was expecting a different reaction, is all.
She thinks Billie is a victim of Ruth’s, possibly the same way she was victimized by someone else if I’m right.
Real talk? I have experience with dealing my abuser constantly attempting to vindicate herself for her actions, so Rachel saying this to someone who all she knows of is:
– She’s an abuser.
-She got everything back.
It makes perfect sense to me. Especially the quieting down part where you blow up in anger and just lose all your steam. She probably wants Ruth to yell back about how changed she is just to validate those feelings.
I agree. I think that’s what Rachel was expecting, too – a huge fight. But it didn’t happen and now she’s having a moment where she doesn’t know what to do next and so what she said is sinking in for her as well.
She just got back from the suicide ward that day. Not a full day has past since she returned.
So sure Rachel’s anger is understandable but what she said, yesterday, in actuality, crossed the line into unjustified. because even without the full context, she was fully aware of that fact and chose to ignore it.
Whereupon Ruth walks back in and tells everyone that she’s back, has faced no consequences for her actions, still gets to keep her girlfriend, and she’s super sorry.
This isn’t a calculated attack on Ruth. This is Rachel lashing out at a perceived unfairness for pretty obviously personal reasons. It isn’t right that Ruth has her job back, even if that isn’t Ruth’s fault.
Ruth is probably under no illusions (if any) now about how her behaviour was perceived by some on the floor
So silver lining (if possible) is that this was cathartic for Rachel so I wouldn’t expect more scenes like this because shes got it out of her system and informative for Ruth as she can see the full consequences of her actions (I’ll concede that one may be stretching it a bit)
okay at this point what you’re saying and what i’m saying aren’t actually conflicting pieces of information and we’re really just talking about different aspects of the same thing, so
Oh jiminy christmas panel 5 Mary! Do you not see yourself? Also, who thinks that Rachel is going to become a more major character? I’d welcome that, since I think she’s Jewish and I always welcome more Jewish characters, even as sympathetic antagonists
Your first question is answered by your second question and the second question is that most people don’t take law or politics, just civics, and civics is more about how government works.
The sad reality is that the only ‘human rights’ one really has are the ones you are able to defend for yourself and the ones that others (whether that be individual bystanders, a community, a government, or whatever) are willing and able to defend for you, which varies wildly by both location and individual identity. A wealthy white heterosexual couple in an upscale suburb has the right to feel safe and secure in their home. Meanwhile, someone who’s black, or muslim, or gay, or trans, or homeless, or worse some combination of the above, may ‘forfeit’ their right to live on the random whim of a passing white man in shockingly many parts of America, despite the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness allegedly being the most fundamental founding principle of the country.
Nothing more Christlike than the desire to hurt others #SarcasmMode
Also, I kind of want someone to give Mary a Decepticon insignia mask now:
“If you want to break someone—mentally, physically, emotionally—wait until they’re happy. Let them live and love and thrive. Once they recognize the value of a life well lived… THAT’S when you move in for the kill. Because you can’t take anything from someone who has nothing to lose.”
–Agent Tarn of the Decepticon Justice Division
I’d kinda like to see a comic in which Mary hangs out with people who actually like her and think she’s pretty okay just to see how Willis pulls that off.
So is Mary just actively evil now? It seems she’s gone from just believing she’s better than everybody based solely on her religion to active scheming for the sole purpose of hurting other people.
Yes, you start. Plus Ruth was getting in the way of her openly throwing transphobic slurs at Carla.
Now, she has a vendetta against Billie for standing up to her and punching her stupid face. There’s nothing a bully like her hates with greater passion than someone standing up to them.
Same. Not everything has to be about right/wrong, good/bad. I get why the thing Rachel did actually was pretty bad, but what I don’t get is people saying she’s an awful coward. She’s just a person that’s having a very negative moment right now.
To me Rachel is a teenage girl and so she probably doesn’t like the thought of being physically assaulted (who does) so to me that’s a very valid reason for not speaking up earlier
Rachel played by the rules by getting Ruth help and by letting the authorities know what’s happening and now, in her eyes, absolutely nothing has happened and she only has Ruths word that things are going to change
Should she have said everything she said, probably not
Is it understandable shes ticked off, I think so
Is she a coward and as bad as some are making her out to be, probably not but only time will tell
But if you could like, slit your own throat, and bleed out into this bucket right here, so I can use it to redecorate the walls of my room, that would be a huge help.
Oooooooooookay. I will say this now. Mary is not a religious person. Or, I should say, Mary’s religion, while it may certainly inform her bigoted words and deeds, it is not the impetus behind her actions. Mary is a psychopath. In that I believe she suffers from a sever antisocial personality disorder and is a sadist. She is actively cruel, she knows how to cause pain, and she enjoys causing pain against those groups whom she has been given license by her religion to hurt.
And have you met any neurotypical person who has said the things that Mary says in such a mustache-twirlingly self-aware “I’m a Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain” level of malevolence? Perhaps you have. But generally, the people who I have met who are wicked almost always invariably saw ~themselves~ as decent people who were simply fighting back against those who were victimizing them. They always saw themselves as heroes of their own story and victims, which justified their lashing out and abuse against the actual victims.
Mary on the other hand? She makes no pretense. She does not appear to have any of the cognitive dissonance necessary to maintain her own self-image as being a decent person. She is simply evil incarnate.
Mary absolutely sees herself as the hero of her story. She’s God’s humble servant, gracing these faithless sinner’s with her presence.
She doesn’t even really see her victims as people in any meaningful sense. Homosexuals and transgender people and atheists and those who fail to condemn them properly are all going to hell anyway, so why should she feel the slightest bit bad for any pain she causes them while they’re alive?
Why, with luck, maybe it will help turn them from their wicked paths and towards Christ! Or at the very least, stop them from being able to corrupt others with their “lifestyle choices”
I agree that Mary’s faith isn’t the driving factor. She’s naturally a mean, nasty person. But she uses her faith to justify that. To reinforce her behavior even despite social pressure that might allow some measure of guilt or doubt to sneak in. Because that would just be the Devil trying to tempt her away from her “righteous path” and into sin.
Cults, white supremacists, terrorists and their like all deliberately seek to instill a similar sort of feedback loop in their initiates, because that’s how a perfectly healthy, neurotypical mind can be convinced to do unspeakably evil things.
People like Mary are real, and as others with first-hand experience have noted in the comments on this strip (and many before it), not at all uncommon.
neurotypical people are actually much more likely to be saturday morning cartoon evil than neurodivergent people. ND’s are infinitely more likely to be on the receiving end of this sort of abuse. This sort of abuse is usually the result of elitist or entitled thinking, which has nothing to do with mental illness.
a lot of sociopaths are plenty emotional. The determining factor of a sociopath is the lack of a conscience, or the feeling of guilt specifically. Yes, they view the world differently, but many of them are well adjusted and would never intentionally harm someone for similar reasons a neurotypical person would never. People who are medically a sociopath are no more likely to go off the deepend than neurotypical folk.
My first reaction to this strip is to shudder. My second reaction is that there’s a parallel with the strip from May 13 regarding spite. For Ruth, it was Howard’s pain that spiting Clint would gamble on; for Billie here, it’s Ruth’s.
Why is Rachel so against Ruth? Did Ruth ever abuse Rachel? Does Rachel think Ruth’s relationship with Billie is abusive? Or what? — I think we all think Rachel is a sweetheart, and I know we all know Ruth has sometimes been a hard pill to swallow, but I still don’t know why Rachel has a specific beef against Ruth. I just went through all 33 “Rachel” comics without sussing it out.
Good lord comments back at it again putting Rachel talking down to a bully on the same level as toedad and blaine like… good to know sexism is alive and well.
Rachel is probably the victim of some sort of personal abuse for her to take such a hard stance. Her stance is very helpful for healing in some cases: if you forgive an abuser, then you’ll let them back into your life and let them hurt you again. Rachel is coming at this with all the right passion and mindset on victims- however, probably due to her own personal experience, it hasn’t occurred to her that Ruth is also a victim who is trying to break that cycle of abuse who’s likely been taught nothing but abuse.
She’s going into this acting like they’re all established adults- and was probably forced to grow up too quickly so now has the false notion they’re all set in their ways when really they’re only like… 18-20. They’re still teenagers. They can still change.
Everyone calling her names and seeing her as a villain because we’ve seen Ruth’s development and Rachel HASN’T is just stupid. Come on, guys. It’s entirely possible Ruth reminds Rachel of someone who abused her and she’s preemptively trying to protect other wouldbe victims. I don’t think she’s beyond accepting that she could be wrong about this, she probably just hasn’t seen an example in her real life where people can change.
Her stance is… also remarkably similar to the stance of many abusers? I mean, there’s a chance she’s a victim — like I said elsewhere, those can look very similar — but as a fellow victim, I’m still pretty horrified by her conduct, especially without thinking whether it could end up hurting any other victims?
Then again, my particular abuse has beaten any ability to stand up for myself or deliberately put myself before others out of me, so I spend much of my time arguing with people who literally want me to die or spread terrible, life-ruining lies about me as both a method of self-harm and a way I can stand up for myself and others without feeling like I’m the villain.
See that is one way people can react to abuse, I know plenty of people (including my own sibling) that has absorbed that inability to stand up for yourself mentality. Standing up for yourself = more abuse. Rachel reminds me a lot of what else it can do to you: make you ANGRY. Anger is a stage of grief and one people can revisit very often when recovering.
The difference between Rachel’s stance and an abuser’s stance is the prioritization of the victim. An abuser would never prioritize a victim or anyone they see as weak.
Also, I should amend — It’s not always with people who think I should die or spread lies about me. It’s also people who think I don’t deserve rights, who think that I’m not allowed to talk about my problems, who feel similarly toward other marginalized and victimized people, and who think I’m a monster for wanting the “wrong” people to be included in communities that will provide them with the help and resources they need where other communities will not.
Generally, horrible reactionaries of a variety of stripes, because it’s one of the only ways I can stand up for myself and not feel like a monster.
Another place I tend to draw a line is with being factually incorrect.
But… doing it in person or over the phone is almost impossible for me, even in such circumstances, and standing up for myself online in most other situations? Either can’t do it or I feel like I’m a monster for doing it.
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NO
FUCK OFF MARY
JUST
FUCK
ALLLLLLLLL THE WAY OFF
…………..same
This girls not a Christian, can’t be.
About that…
shes christian in every worst way possible
Where’d you get a blond Ruth avatar?
excuse! a super saiyan ruth avatar!
I’d assume either Willis’ Tumblr or Photoshop
I took her frown from a couple of strips back, popped it into Paint.NET, did a quick recolor, added a Super Saiyan Aura and DBZ background, and called it a day.
I think you should call it an avatar, instead…
I have been, though.
And here I thought it was a shiny Ruth avatat
^I’m sure at least one person here would get that as a tattoo though
I wonder how Becky would look with anime hair…
I’ve encountered far too many “Christians” like her in my time.
I used to be an incredibly awful one (could always use improvement too) so, yeah, sorry on my end.
Absolutely can be. People can believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and His redemptive sacrifice for humankind and also believe that a horrible thing they want to do is quite all right because blah blah excusecakes.
She’s a hateful, spiteful, nasty Christian in dire need of repentance.
“Repentance” is a weird way to say “boot to the ass”…
“… and also believe that a horrible thing they want to do is quite all right because blah blah excusecakes.”
They believe it’s ok, because they are Good People™, and they are Good People™ because they are such good Christians, and since Good People™ don’t do bad things, but they are doing this thing, then that clearly means that this thing they are not doing is not a bad thing. BECAUSE they are doing it, and they are Good People™ who don’t do bad things. See?
Nixon Logic?
Nixon’s full explanation is clearer than that and actually not something I *completely* disagree with, where the president can give authorization to do things that would otherwise be against regulations or illegal (which IS the function of an executive to do), because the president is more accountable to Congress and the people than, say, the CIA. Nixon’s other behavior belied his authoritarian streak, however, which colors this justification, and why the interview is historically relevant.
Mary’s logic rests on some faulty premises; that “good people” are immune from being wrong in their actions, that Christians (as she defines it) are “good people”, and that she meets the definition of Christian no matter what she does. Thus, in all cases, she is Christian, therefore she is Good, therefore she is never wrong.
She identifies as Christian and uses Christian ideology as basis for her bigotry. Besides, plenty of real life Christians are comparably bad.
Please don’t no true Christian this. There are plenty of Christians like Mary in the real world.
Yeah, I’m sorry, but yes she is. She might be an absolutely awful Christian, but she’s still Christian.
People like Mary exist among us, even within communities that are important to us. You can’t simply handwave that away by saying they were never really part of those communities.
Actually, you kind of can. Part of the requirement for being Christian is following the path of Christ.
If you aren’t doing that, you aren’t a Christian.
She might go to church, receive communion or whatever, but she doesn’t walk in his steps, so she is not a Christian.
The problem is there are enough different interpretations of what exactly constitutes a “true Christian” that no one Christian can say “Well she doesn’t fit MY definition of a Christian and is therefore not a Christian.”
Of course it’s it’s wrong to judge ALL Christians by the behavior of the shitty ones, but it’s also very dangerous to dismiss the shitty ones by implying they’re not REALLY true Christians. This downplays the very real issue of people using their religion as justification for extremely shitty outlooks and behaviors. Because these shitty people are still, in their minds, Christian.
It’s beneficial to be acknowledge there are shitty people in every group rather than just pretending they’re not part of the group.
In this context, I find it more useful to parse “Christians” as “people who consider themselves Christians and are known by other people to consider themselves Christians” than get tangled up up in whether it’s possible to define a Real Christian, and if so, whether any given person fits that definition or not.
There are people who feel that no true Christian could vote for Donald Trump, and demonstrably a lot of other people who think it was perfectly fine, or even the only available moral action. It doesn’t resolve the question of how to deal with the harmful actions of those who regard those actions as Christian-compatible or Christian-mandatory to just declare those people not to be Christians at all.
The problem is there are enough different interpretations of what exactly constitutes a “true Christian” that no one Christian can say “Well she doesn’t fit MY definition of a Christian and is therefore not a Christian.”
Though some sects actually will say, and 100% mean, that someone is not a Christian if they don’t follow that sect’s individual flavor of Christianity. Usually it’s based on doctrine rather than personal behavior. Personal behavior tends to be policed by each sect or church on their own. So if your behavior doesn’t follow their guidelines (e.g., you think homosexuality is okay or you don’t go to church often enough), they’ll decide you’re not a Christian and kick you out.
So the No True Scotsmen fallacy ends up being a bit more interesting in cases like this because there’s actually a case to be made to say that someone is not a Christian, depending on the rules of one’s own sect, but acording to the rules of another they may still be.
Agatha considers herself to be a Christian.
I’m sure Mary considers Mormons to be… er, not.
According to the doctrine that I was raised under, you’re confusing sanctification for justification. Once you are justified, that is, saved from hell by Christ’s sacrifice (death and subsequent sojourn in hell, where his soul was destroyed before miraculously popping back into being at the same instant), you are saved, and therefore Christian.
After that, you must work on your own sanctification, that is, living by following Christ’s teachings, denying your base impulses and practicing submission to the demands made upon you by the moral code of the Bible. So according to this version of Christianity, to which many (though by no means all, or even the majority of) Protestants subscribe, Mary, having acknowledged Christ as her savior and the Christian God as the only true god, is absolutely Christian.
She’s a terrible person. That wouldn’t be in question. But she’s Christian.
No TRUE Scotsman
Careful….. 🙂
It’s the hypocrites and extremists that stand out of every group enough that they’re what you think of when you think of that group of people. Mary fits my view of Christianity to a tee.
It’s an irony that a substantial portion of Rabbi Joshua ben Josef’s ministry was devoted to how much people were using religion to fuck over people in his time and how they needed to stop it.
I would say Rachel’s stance on redemption, if she believes it, makes her not a Christian, because the whole point of that religion is that we can all be redeemed by Christ. I’ve talked with people of dozens, if not hundreds, of different Christian groups, and they all have their own spin on that, but the fact that it *happens* is a constant.
Mary, on the other hand. People like Mary are the reason I originally stopped being a Christian. Because if that’s something to aspire to, I’m out. If I could’ve told myself Mary wasn’t a Christian, it would’ve taken more. But she’s not, to my knowledge, taken any stance that is actually strictly opposed to Christianity. Many denominations would denounce her, but most of those would not denounce the denominations that would hold her up as an ideal Christian.
FUCK. OFF. MARY.
“I could stand to lose a dorm-mate, sure”
Hint hint
Dun…dun…..DUNNNNNN!!!!
just as Jesus would’ve said it!
I imagine Jesus in the corner of the panel, standing at the edge of the group, going “Dun dun DUNNNNNNNNN!!!” when Mary speaks, and Billie looking over at him and being all, “Really?” and Jesus looking kind of embarrassed but also kind of pleased with himself.
“Then, once again, fate smiled. It was a sickening, sadistic smile–but it was still a smile.”
Shouldn’t have said that within earshot of Rachel, Mary.
She attacked Ruth in front of Mary knowing full well that Mary made Ruth suicidal, I’m not sure what’s changed now.
Rachel can hate multiple people.
Rachel’s not exactly fond of Mary either.
yeah I still don’t see her reacting to Mary in any way
She’s not really seeing the consequences of things though, or she wouldn’t have shitbombed Ruth. Mary being Mary could just be low-grade noise to her right now, rather than an active threat to the health of half the dorm.
(and oh crap, Joyce in the background’s almost as heartbreaking as Amber…)
Nah, she’s just a cowardly worm that likes kicking people when they’re down. It’s easy to grandstand when people are at their lowest.
Yup. For someone who thinks themselves oh so perceptive and wise and world-weary, she sure does ignore most of what’s going on around her.
Ignoring most of what goes on around you is typically key in thinking oneself perceptive and wise, knowing all about the world. There are very few people who can really understand all the nuances of what goes on in the world. I know that I myself cannot, yet I seem to do a better job than most of the people I’ve encountered who seem to think they can. I can think of a few people I’ve met who do a far better job than I do. But generally, they don’t seem to consider themselves wise. There’s one I’m not sure of; I never got to know her well enough.
Now would be a real great time for Rachel to turn around and tell Mary to fuck off too, but,
1. Rachel’s rant and the circumstances around it suggest she either doesn’t know or doesn’t care what Mary did to Ruth. I lean toward doesn’t care, since Billie said she talked to the floor about it IIRC.
2. Pretty sure the second part is meant to be hushed, so’s to keep anyone other’n Billie from hearing it. The audience is just meant to hear “Why wouldn’t I smile?”.
*plays ELO’s “Evil Woman” on the hacked Muzak*
I don’t know what song, so I’m just singing it to the tune of “Pretty Woman”.
Personally, I’m going by the tune of “Witchy Woman” by the Eagles.
Here you go!
Warning: it’s the catchiest song ever written in half an hour.
…Is…Is she going to blackmail her with the fact that she blackmailed her with her own blackmail?
Or more easily the punch to her face.
I’m guessing she’s going to start needling Ruth at every opportunity to get back at Billie.
she’s just gonna mary all over the two of them
man
fuck OFF, mary
Wait, what order are these blackmails in?
Mary blackmailed Ruth.
Using Ruth and Billie’s relationship,
with the threat of the RM.
To achieve personal freedom from her authority.
Billie (and the floor) blackmailed Mary.
Using Mary’s previous wrongdoings, ie blackmail, and a swift punch, as a power play,
with the threat of the RM
To achieve Mary acting like a kind person.
Now, I think.
Mary is blackmailing Billie in an attempt to control Ruth
Using the punch and the blackmail plot (likely saying Part A was false)
with the threat of the RM or higher
To again achieve personal freedom from authority.
Why doesn’t just Marry find a new floor?
She’d hate them just as much (assuming she ever actually got transferred), and it would be admitting defeat, and letting her intended victims win.
And now I want to defeat Mary with haiku…
Every time I think I hate Mary as much as I possibly can, she finds a way.
Can’t we just be done with Mary? I sick of her shit.
Stories need villains and antagonists. Mary exists to be hated. It’s her purpose as a character. The more you hate her, the more of a successful villain her creator can consider her to be.
Stories don’t really need villains and antagonists, but that’s a bit beside the point.
I do disagree that a hated villain is necessarily a good villain, though. When thinking back on what I count as great villains they didn’t make me go “I hope that asshole gets hit by a truck”. That was reserved for the ones that wore out their welcome and/or were just annoying.
A story requires conflict to be in any way interesting; therefore, an antagonist is necessary. It needn’t be a villain, of course. It is simply a force that opposes the protagonist in their goals. The three essential types of story: Person v. Person, Person v. Nature, Person v. Self.
There’s also Person v. Society, but that may be a subset of Person v. Person, idk.
There’s debate. Some people include Person v. God, too, for example. I prefer to keep things simple though :p
everyone always forgets Jet v. Head
A good villain has good reasons for doing bad things.
A bad villain is bad because the script says so.
Personally, I find exploration and learning quite interesting, when they’re well-written. Like the parts of the Recluse books where the main character learns a trade.
Mary and her shit are also a nice bit of verisimilitude. In real life, you win once against some plotting bigot, and hooray for you, but there’s another one, and another one, and then the first one comes back, and then there’s a different plot, and it goes on forever, and your human rights and the beauty in the world and the mercy and generosity of humans is always, always under attack, always on the edge of slipping away from us. Mary is right where she should be.
Tbh, though, Mary has gotten to the point for me that I’m bored and just want nothing to do with her (ie, with reading about her). She’s so tiresomely hateful and predictably shitty that nowadays I just find her draining. Like with real people I’ve had enough of I don’t even care about seeing her get her comeuppance or anything like that anymore, I just want her _gone_. If this was the last we ever heard of her I’d be totally cool with that and not even be bothered by any dangling plot threads.
Oh geez, Amber looks devastated.
Rachel’s speech had an indirect effect on her. This might sting.
Yes. Rachel accidentally stabbed her right in the insecurities.
To be fair, I don’t think they’re hard to miss.
…hart to HIT. Dunno what my train of thought was.
No you had it right. You don’t think they’re hard to miss. Which is easy to hit.
I think a good few readers were sharing her expression, yesterday. I know I was.
Joyce also looks stunned. Given how much she has grown, that’d be rather… upsetting to hear.
Billie would also easily be collateral damage if Ruth were the kind of abuser that Rachel paints her as as an event such as this one would lead an abuser to take it out on their victim later usually. And Rachel has done nothing to prevent that, she’s gone silent as Ruth leaves and she turned Billie against her in her process of Ruth destroying so it is doubtful Billie would even listen if Rachel tried to say something to her about it when she tries to leave.
Might as well make Mary happy and make everyone else collateral in the process of tearing out Ruth’s soul when she is at her most vulnerable and least able to stand up for herself apparently.
Yeah, that looks like a nice set of 3 traumatized faces of varying intensities. Good going, Rachel, bet you’re going to feel real good about that when the full context of your actions hits you.
Willis said that “Robin is still Robin” so the question is “Is Rachel still Rachel?” Because while it’d be interesting to change it, up, so far everyone is still themselves.
I’m going to guess yes, which means she’s going to be horrified when she realizes the extent of harm she just performed here with what she initially viewed as a dressing down of a disingenuous bully.
the color of mary’s hair matches her personality.
that’s not super fair to brown-haired people, who also have to live with her shit
We ALL have to live with her shit.
(i mean we don’t really, we can just stop reading… but, y’know, people like her)
yeah but like
u shouldn’t have to feel shitty just cause you share a hair color with mary, the shittiest
i mean. like. maybe…let’s not Do That Thing where we associate people’s looks with their personal qualities
Well, yes.
i was intending my comment to be “well mary’s a shithead”
honestly i wasn’t trying to do more than say “hey let’s not do this”. like im one hundred percent sure you had good intentions but like, unfortunately, still came off to me in a negative way
but yes she is a shithead
fair
good!!
TBH, I don’t think brunettes are the subject of enough discrimination to justify a “#notallbrunettes” post. It was a funny joke. Why do we have to treat it like a serious affront?
because racism
i.e. brown-skinned people get this treatment, unfortunately, a lot; brown eyes and hair are not always valued as much as blonde hair and blue eyes; we have a dark vs. light symbolism thing going on in our culture where dark is always evil and light is always good, and that’s reductive. because i was looking up poems for my friend about her dark brown eyes last week and it was really hard to find any that didn’t go on about how people don’t appreciate brown eyes enough, or use food or mud comparisons.
but also because relating people’s personal characteristics to their physical appearances is usually a bad thing. and idk if i looked like mary, seeing something like that said would really bum me out. as someone who tends more to the joyce end of the spectrum, seeing that still bummed me out. so i said something about it, because not speaking up when things bother you is usually something you regret later.
so like: it wasn’t a funny joke to me. why did you find it funny?
@zoelogical – the song “Brown eyed girl” might be a nice change from those poems. Doesn’t say anything about the eye color, just mentions it.
yup!! that and paul simon talking about carrie fisher and her cold coffee eyes after they broke up. (which is still a food comparison and…tenuous.) it’s really not as much as you get about blue eyes, tho. it’s rare and far between. and not quite as romanticized.
@ Zoelogical:
She Walks in Beauty
By Lord Byron (George Gordon)
She walks in beauty, like the night
Of cloudless climes and starry skies;
And all that’s best of dark and bright
Meet in her aspect and her eyes;
Thus mellowed to that tender light
Which heaven to gaudy day denies.
One shade the more, one ray the less,
Had half impaired the nameless grace
Which waves in every raven tress,
Or softly lightens o’er her face;
Where thoughts serenely sweet express,
How pure, how dear their dwelling-place.
And on that cheek, and o’er that brow,
So soft, so calm, yet eloquent,
The smiles that win, the tints that glow,
But tell of days in goodness spent,
A mind at peace with all below,
A heart whose love is innocent!
@Kryss LaBryn: aaaaack that is some good poetry!!!!
i was thinking i’d check out Langston Hughes, too. and then like look at writingwithcolor, etc
@zoological just curious: really only food and mud-comparisons? That kind of wants me to try and write my own…and I just remembered I did once write a poem about my best friend back in school, but I more or less simply described her eyes as “mahogany” and them looking “at me in a pleasant way” – it’s rather kitschy overall.
My first associations with brown eyes would be from nature (trees – wood, chestnuts, hazelnuts; gemstones like amber, fluorite, topaz, or carnelian; copper, etc.) and only after that food items (coffee, chocolate…bread(?)).
(Don’t get me wrong. I myself have brown eyes and hair, and I honestly tried to think of something.)
I guess as for the lack of poems about them: it’s easier to compare blue eyes with something (you immediately can think of the sky, water, etc.) than brown eyes.
Damn you comment system (this was supposed to go to the comment string above me)
not so much only, but like the most common. I mean I basically just googled it on my phone…at work…and only really looked down the first page. but i’ve heard that food comparisons are a) super overdone and b) kind of objectifying! which i can get, because we eat food, but that doesn’t mean i want to eat my sweetie’s chocolate brown eyes. hopefully i would rather have them keep them so that they can enjoy seeing my fabulosity with them.
Seal-dark is a description I picked up from an ATLA fanfic that has really stuck with me; doe-brown could work, too. Creekbed eyes? MAHOGANY. vanilla bean. otter-brown. black pearls??
nah I’m pretty sure the lack of poems about them is because blue eyes got preferred by white people back in the day and it hasn’t really stopped, but it’s not like I’ve done a study about it.
Thanks a lot. My hair’s also dark brown.
this is mildly off-topic, but i wonder if you could have blonde shit
i mean i know we have blonde pieces of shit but like those are the human variety
You can have pale, but it’s a sign of illness, for example hepatitis A or other forms of illness in the liver
huh
i know that green poop is pretty normal-ish if you’ve been eating a lot of green things. but red poop is usually…a very bad sign
http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorders/what-do-different-poop-colors-mean#1
Warning: gross comment.
I used to change the diapers of a little toddler with pica (eating disorder that makes you eat weird inedible things, hers was for eating paper). Her diapers were extremely evil-smelling and her poop was white, from the bleach in the paper. It was not good for her health, I hope her parents eventually helped get her to stop.
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
oh my god that’s awful and horrifying
poor baby
Might wanna shut your mouth Mary before you lose consciousness.
Joyce and Amber in the background. 🙁
God Mary is fucked up. She radiates evil.
Also I’m wondering what exactly Rachel is currently feeling. She doesn’t look satisfied with herself.
I’m thinking: Rachel’s the consequence of dealing with Ruthless for a year, and with any luck seeing Mary in full Mary is making her consider that?
Please? That’d be a good thing. Willis, you like us having good things, right?
Oh god the black-dots-for-eyes are back RACHEL WHAT HAVE YOU DONE.
(Also go fuck yourself Mary but that’s not really new. Birds fly, fish swim, Mary is the worst always.)
I wonder if Ruth’s expression and Mary’s reaction right now and that line about Ruth being “something to lose” is going to remind Rachel that she said all this shit to someone who got out of the hospital for being fucking suicidal a day ago. I think it’s possible that even though she knew that she was so busy being angry she kind of just…let herself ignore that? I think it might be sinking in though in those first two panels because she doesn’t look to me to be satisfied or happy with herself. She just looks like, “Well I’ve been wanting to say that. I said it.”
The dot-eyes set in in panel 4(? the last one before the cut to RObin) last strip.
And Billie’s eyes actually do something similar in panel 2 after she sees Ruth’s face.
I was going to make a comment about how shitty Mary is but then I saw your name and all became right with the world.
More importantly, I saw your name in conjunction with your gravatar image, which combines two things that deserve combining. I award you as much internets as I am able.
Why thank you! I like your gravatar too.^^
Yeah, I think seeing Ruth going all the way back to right before she was hospitalized and not bounce back after a second is hitting her right on her fears, especially as she’s been told not to intervene on her beloved’s behalf, which must make her feel extra useless.
So yeah, four traumatized folks and one bully massively empowered. Doubt that was her initial intention going in.
the black-dot-eyes even spread to joyce
what is this Other Mother bullshit going on
Other Mother? Is this another new term?
it’s from Coraline
basically a girl moves into a new house and her parents are busy and can’t pay enough attention to her so she runs around on her own and finds a door into another house, that is exactly a mirror image of her own house, with an Other Mother. who is the perfect mother!! and also has buttons for eyes
buttons for eyes is kind of a motif throughout
i don’t want to spoil but it’s neil gaiman so there’s a lot of fun fairytale horror stuff going on
Oh, it’s from Coraline. I’ve seen bits and pieces of the movie, but never any of the parts that use that name. It honestly looked like indie garbage, but your description makes it seem like a Twilight Zone plot, and I’m into that.
hahaha. it is a bit more like a Twilight Zone plot!! a very, very gothic Twilight Zone plot. more Nightmare Before Christmas than scifi or indie, i’d say, right down to being directed by the same guy who directed Nightmare Before Christmas. which was not, as a matter of fact, Tim Burton, but rather Henry Selick.
Well, somebody has to be Tim Burton now that the actual Tim Burton just comes up with weird movies for Johnny Depp to star in.
lol EXACTLY
Here’s something related I forgot to link to earlier!
omfg that’s hysterical
See, but now you’re comparing it to Nightmare Before Christmas, and now I’m more averse than ever.
It was based on a book written by Neil Gaiman.
I’ve never read any of his work.
hahaha okay. i liked Nightmare Before Christmas, but tastes vary!!
So did she miss that the entire dorm is against her? Try what you want Mary, your word doesn’t have much pull against everybody else.
Except now she thinks Rachel is on her side.
I fear Rachel could go down the route of “My enemy’s enemy is my friend” and side with Mary.
I would agree, if not for Rachel’s line at the end of this strip:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/rat/
I still don’t know how to do links.
<a href=”URL goes here”>Link text goes here.</a>
Thank you!
What a bongo.
the biggest bongo
The bongo’s back (but she never left).
Her shittiness kinda soured my mood, but a read of the Bad Webcomics review for this comic cheered me right up.
Is that Mary’s version of the triangle grin in panel 4? Because it’s kind of horrifying.
If Joyce and Mary ever smile in the same room and at the same time, the universe might explode
Thankfully, with Mary being Mary and Joyce being Joyce, that’ll probably never happen
i take back everything i’ve ever said about mary being the resident cockroach, she’s a fuckin’ termite
Coincidentally, Mary, you also have something to lose.
Your teeth.
And her femurs, go straight for the femurs, I’ve heard you need those to live.
Mary everyone has something to lose, knowing that doesn’t help if you can’t do anything with it
Besides revenge is a suckers game
What does she even have to get revenge for? Not being allowed to bully everyone at any time, for no reason whatsoever?
She’d probably phrase it as “being oppressed for being Christian”, but yeah.
I’ll oppress the fuck out of a Christian, if they’re using their religion as an excuse for this shit.
so….oppressed…
Revenge is a sucker’s game if you have some other goal that indulging in revenge can derail you from. When your goal is to simply inflict pain and suffering on others, however…
Why in hell would anyone like Mary?!
Nobody does. I bet her parents are fucking SAINTS, and she’s just like this.
I don’t think they are.
This kind of evil does not just spawn naturally.
You’d hope not, at least.
I believe Word of Willis is that Mary’s parents are pretty decent folks.
She had the same upbringing that Joyce had, she just learned the opposite lessons Joyce did.
She makes everyone else seem better in comparison.
MAAAAAAAAARRRRRYYY
*flies into angry rage*
(honestly I half-expect Joyce to come to Billie’s defense because it would be great twist and she’s made clear her respect for Billie and Ruth as a couple. Which means that another rational but completely different plot twist will appear).
i was hoping for this but it really seems like it’s all thrown her for a loop :/
Yeah. 🙁
Right now I’ve got the Firefly theme song stuck in my head. It’s mildly comforting. … I wonder if Smoky Quartz had a song… Or Lapis…
haha i’ve been listening to the lily allen “fuck you” song that somebody linked. it’s very cathartic. i think i might move on to p!nk’s so what after that
i have no idea! i haven’t been caught up with steven universe since season 2 unfortunately
you really really should get caught up 🙂 new season five episodes are out tomorrow apparently. and, like, have you even seen any redemption arcs yet?
here’s a cheerful(ish) song that’s from… season 2 episode 24. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss7rLjGAlQE
…and the season 1 finale (*massive* spoilers for anyone who’s not watched it), which I hope ruth and billie can sing someday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OWq38TikzU (the audio on that one is kinda crap, but every other version has… additions.)
Go ahead and try to hit me if you’re able.
Can’t you see that my relationship is stable?
I can see you hate the way we intermingle.
But I think you’re just mad ’cause you’re single.
You’re not gonna stop what we’ve made together.
We are gonna stay like this forever.
If you break us apart we’ll just come back newer.
And we’ll always be twice the gem that you are.
i’ve seen, like, most of peridot’s? but honestly like the fandom drama was real intense and i just wanted to Chill. and it can be hard for me to focus on tv anyways. *stares longingly at brooklyn nine nine* someday, precious. someday.
…i may actually be near the end of season 3?? the seasons confuse me. but i do recognize that song
…i think the last song i heard was garnet’s mindfulness song
“Vicious” is the word that’s sticking in my mind right now. It describes everything we witness Mary do.
idk why i like your username so much. but it’s very good
It reminds you of pasta.
Mary is determined to make herself into a problem Billie can solve by punching,.
Also, Mary doesn’t hold so many cards here that she can just blab about it in front of everyone, does she?
She doesn’t hold any fucking cards, so no.
She doesn’t even know there were cards. She thinks this is tic-tac-toe.
this is. exactly. the game that she’s playing holy smokes
“If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.”
Now that Billie and Ruth relationship is public, Mary holds no cards. She just thinks she does because she’s a delusional asshole.
Mary is working hard to elevate her EVIL status in this webcomic. She has stiff competition but I think the addition of “the smiles” really brings her to the next level.
Smiling evily doesn’t increase your levels of evil, and she hasn’t done anything worse today than what she’s done so far, so her levels of evil have been fairly stagnant for awhile now.
to me personally Mary is still less evil than people like Blaine or Toe Dad because they went after their daughters, the one person in the world a father is supposed to protect more than anything else. At the very least Mary never did that. She also never tried to rape anyone.
i guess the thing about Mary is that her evil is so consistent. like. she’s smart enough not to do things near people who will give her serious consequences for her behavior, but she’s not smart enough not to do them in the first place. she is a constant ever-present evil, and she modulates her evil so that she can be ever-present.
that kind of shit sucks the life out of you
Well this segment has been a serious downer….Quick cut back to Joe! We can fun criticising his chauvinistic tendencies as he strikes out with the random girl of the week!
Hmmmmmmmmmm. I wonder if Joe interacting with Mary would lead to catharsis, angst, or a really unexpected romantic relationship.
……….
So at what point is someone sufficiently close to a fascist that punching them is permissible? Does plotting the systematic destruction of three queer women, to the point of driving them to suicide, count as close enough? Just asking philosophically.
Because if Mary were real, I’d be punching her right now either way.
Shit, I’ve punched people over less. She’s well past the line of excusable behavior.
“plotting the systematic destruction of three queer women” sounds good enough for me
Punching people is still illegal, no matter how fascist they are, and Mary seems like the kind of person to call the police and place assault charges if someone did punch her.
Though she didn’t when Billie punched her earlier.
No she’s not. Her reaction to Carla being too loud instead of telling authorities of their building was to be petty and vindictive. She’s the kind of person where if you stole a pair of her shoes, she’d burn your entire closet instead of reporting it to the police. She is perfectly fine breaking the law herself to spite the people she hates even though she could easily use the rules or law against them to win far more easily as she likes to give her own personal brand of revenge.
Okay I know everyone’s very justifiably horrified atm but I really hope Billie puts a pin in Mary’s being obviously evil ad follows Ruth out. She should not be alone right now.
And neither should Amber. (Thanks Rach!)
And neither should Joyce, the person who has been consistently growing and changing throughout this comic who has just heard that people never change and is looking pretty stunned there.
Good to know we can be unified in our hatred of Mary, at least. Jiminy Christmas, she’s supernaturally evil. Well…probably not, real humans have a great capacity to be just as horrible, but still, she’s a concentrated dose of despicable.
Well Rachel, congrats. Mary assumes you’re on her side now.
Does Mary not know that Billie’s changing dorms?
If Billie’s not one of Ruth’s residents, there’s nothing against the rules about their relationship. So Mary has no leverage.
Also, considering that the relationship being found out previously did a whole lot of nothing, what does Mary think she can accomplish here?
mary: “two girls are having a not straight relationship. i want them expelled.”
campus: “we don’t care.”
And then she mouths off to the administration, insults them personally, and gets herself expelled.
a very mary thing to do
A very merry thing to do!
I like that scenario
May we only be so lucky.
That, or her computer breaks and she yells at IT support staff.
I don’t know if she knows about the room transfer but I don’t even think it would make a difference if she did because she’s talking about Ruth being taken away from Billie with the full knowledge that Ruth is suicidal. I think she’s basically saying to Billie, “You wouldn’t want me to do anything to mess with Ruth’s delicate mental state so she’ll remove herself from you permanently? Right? Better be nice.” Her intent probably isn’t even for Ruth to actually die but to take advantage of Billie’s concern for her fragile girlfriend. Because Mary is fucking evil.
Evil? I think that word gets thrown around a little too easily. Don’t get me wrong, Mary is a horrible person, mean spirited, a bigot, homophobic, petty, hypocritical, the list goes on…..but like “evil” is subjective. Soooooooo many characters in this comic could be called evil who just aren’t.
No, Mary is legitimately and objectively fucking evil.
She has spent days trying to figure out how to weaponize Billie’s girlfriend being fucking suicidal against her.
She is evil.
Name a single positive quality that Mary has. No seriously, please try, because I can’t think of any.
She’s relentless, opportunistic, and apparently quite artistic.
The problem being, aside from the last one, she uses these things for evil.
I keep forgetting that she knows how to draw…kind of. It’s a shame we don’t see that side of her, but then again I don’t think we’re supposed to.
I don’t think having an artistic side really softens her in anyway though. I mean John Wayne Gacy liked to paint. George Bush likes to paint. I’m sure Paul Ryan has some kind of benign hobby.
Not to forget, Hitler wanted to enroll in an arts school, but was rejected.
I don’t think it would soften her at all just round her out more. Right now it seems like all she does is skulk around the halls waiting for a chance to get a word in edgewise. But I say we’re not supposed to because she’s a side character. We’d don’t know what Raidah does with her freetime, or Agatha, or Malaya, or Rachel, or any of the other dozens of supplementary cast.
Have you seen her anime Roland Reagen pics? she uses that for evil too
she likes drawing, i guess
i have no idea what she likes drawing but i mean…pencils, in and of themselves, are neutral
She draws Ronald Reagan anime style fanart.
god fucking damnit
when shall we be at peace
Okay actually it’s just little anime people (neutral) and huge ass Ronald Reagan portraits (evil).
i mean like my headcanon was that she sublimated her queer urges through drawing large-breasted women coming to jesus. but these are things i can work with, i guess
i could easily imagine her going through a lot of “gay people learning to be straight” garbage tho
idk like. mary is very much out of my experience because most homophobic christians i’ve known haven’t been anywhere near this malicious or like…aware of the world around them. like my mom can be pretty homophobic but like most of the time she chooses not to believe that gay people exist, which is why their existence despite her disbelief is such an affront to her. she doesn’t obsess over hating them, as far as i know. so like the choice to put so much work into this is….illuminating to mary’s character i guess
so like. wtf does someone like this even do. when this shit is what they do for fun, apparently
@zoelogical. I’d actually like to see what Mary’s parents are like. I think it would answer a lot of questions or raise a ton of them.
word of god is that her parents are normal and decent people
idk some people just want to watch the world burn from their private hell known as suburbia
Neutral isn’t positive.
no, but it has the potential for positivity. and there is a very real pleasure in having a hobby, which is a good thing
idk depends very much on what she uses it for tho
Things can be subjective to varying degrees. You may think the word “evil” gets thrown around in some cases it shouldn’t, but Mary has done pretty much everything in her power to earn it.
When someone is a horrible person, mean spirited, a bigot, homophobic, petty, hypocritical with a list that goes on and on, and they are actively trying to make life worse for others while revelling in that fact, I feel they may well be objectively evil.
So… what are your criteria for “evil,” then, if Mary doesn’t meet them?
She contributed to Ruth trying to kill herself, and ever since has been looking for ways to use it to her advantage, and AGAINST Ruth and the people who care about her. Why doesn’t that qualify as evil?
Rachel decided that verbally attacking a suicidal woman trying to heal was a good idea, so I think less of Rachel now. And Mary…well, it’s hard to find more hate for someone you already loathe entirely.
Wait, so, what is Mary planning here?
That’s not intrigue on my part, that’s confusion about, to echo Ruth some time back, what leverage Mary has here. What the hell does Mary think she can get away with?
As far as Mary knows the whole “hiding Becky” thing is still happening, and could be used for leverage. Also she can get back at Billie by tormenting Ruth second hand. And this is as easy as reminding everyone else how Ruth is a bully and is really just as bad as ever, just hiding it better.
The fact that most of the dorm hates her as well is something she seems have blocked out though..
Right, but none of that warrants a dramatic close-up. We’re clearly supposed to see Mary as a genuine threat to Our Heroes’ well-being.
the more people hate her the more she can feel persecuted
Fuck you so very much, Mary!
well boy hoody doody fuckin shit.
I’m still plenty furious at Rachel. I hope panel 3 is something akin to dissatisfaction. Or maybe she’s just looking at Mary walk into the picture. maybe she’s realizing that she’s inadvertently sided with Mary. or maybe she’s not realized anything, i don’t know.
Joyce seems a little surprised. Amber is clearly devastated. Way to go Rachel. Fuck off.
Mary on the other hand doesn’t have to fuck off because I’m going to fling her into the grand canyon with my bear hands.
you have bear hands?! :O are they soft?
mostly hairy
booo
Imma be clear cus I don’t wanna deal with any fuckshit on this day: I’m telling Rachel to fuck off because what she did specifically yesterday was callous, maliciously fatalistic and potentially catastrophic, even going by what she did know going in. But I know her intention is within the realm of justification and it’s a personal err she can grow from eventually. or not, whatever.
Mary is never justified, perpetually evil that won’t grow because she absolutely 100% doesn’t want to. She’s the only person in that room that big speech related too, but it wouldn’t have mattered because she never bothered to be repentant in the first place, and it’s evident she’s only gonna go back without any remorse.
Er go, Rachel can fuck off because she either improves herself or gets outta my face and that’s a win-win for me, whereas Mary, who is in only the barest and most vile of tangents even closely related to Rachel, is not willing to change and actively and purposefully the most hateful recurring character in this strip and the only clear way to be rid of her is if I ensure she is flung into a gorge.
You might struggle letting go if she gets caught on your claws, you might have to scrape her on the canyon wall a little to get her off, just be careful not to break a claw.
Rachel, you don’t look so pleased. What’s wrong? Did it not feel good verbally punching someone who doesn’t punch back? Does it hurt, seeing that Mary seems to think you’re on her side now? Does it feel bad, seeing how Amber looks. Gosh, golly, who could possibly have foreseen that saying what you said might be a horrible thing. Who could have known?
No indeed, I think Rachel’s battling with herself, because she knows what she did was wrong but still needed the catharsis.
I’m curious about Rachel’s backstory, as hints were dropped that she knows more about abuse than most people her age. She was the one to tell Chloe about the Billie-Ruth deal because she was concerned about the (and she mentionned it again in yesterday’s strip, so it’s obviously important to her) but she also mentions Ruth is suicidal, which seems to denote concern. She clearly does NOT want to empower Mary and thinks she’s evil (calls her out on the <a href="http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/opportunity/" title="blackmail" thing).
But what 18-year old is so cognizant of power structures and abusers using suicide as a tool in their screwed-up power play? She also calls out Joe on his rating women in a way that suggests she's read up or at the very least thought about how to shut down his type of abuse.
But Dorothy asks her about her scripting error, which suggests she's not majring in social sciences to explain this knowledge she has.
Yet she lashes out at Ruth, maybe because Ruth/Ruth's behaviour remind her of something else. Maybe witnessed someone else going back to their abuser because "they've changed now" only to be tortured again?
So my guess is – she is confused because she's discovering that you can be an abuser AND a victim, and she doesn't know how to handle that, because she wanted to attack the abuser and is slowly coming to the realization that she actually abused the victim instead. And well, she's young too.
Guess she's gonna feel shitty in a couple of days, but feeling shitty about past actions and growing up because of it is kind of the core theme of DoA. More growth for everyone, yay!
Except Mary, possibly.
Seems like I forgot to close tags. Sorry about that :/
Should read:
I’m curious about Rachel’s backstory, as hints were dropped that she knows more about abuse than most people her age. She was the one to tell Chloe about the Billie-Ruth deal because she was concerned about the (and she mentionned it again in yesterday’s strip, so it’s obviously important to her) but she also mentions Ruth is suicidal, which seems to denote concern. She clearly does NOT want to empower Mary and thinks she’s evil (calls her out on the thing).
Unless I screwed them up again.
She doesn’t look pleased because she didn’t say it for pleasure, she said it because she is displeased. She expressed her distaste about things not changing (“you get to keep her (Billie)”, “you get to keep your job”, “what you did won’t go away/will always be there”). Why should she be pleased?
Yeah.. This looks like classic fallout from blowing up at someone, in public, without thinking. Rachel =/= Mary. only Mary would say something like that and be utterly pleased by everyone’s reactions, like she is right now.
I have nothing to add here, but I didn’t see you saying hi to me on yesterday’s comic until just now, and I would hate to be rude. So hello to you, too, Andy.
From Andy
Sweet crapping fuck that is the most evil thing Mary’s said.
As much as I hope for it, she doesn’t look remorseful. She looks more annoyed by/dismissive of Ruth.
Shit, this was supposed to be a reply to Andy.
And no one said anything! I’m to angry to hate Mary right now how is this possible. All of the expletives Rachael. I get this is probably going to be part of a not necessarily Joe-related arc for her. As much as I am THRILLED, that she’ll get enough screen time to have and express genuine flaws… Props tp Willis, she is officially out of the background, with a bang no less. I’ve officially gone from mad to jealous of your writing chops. :p
Okay so people seem confused on Mary’s plan here. I think her plan is to basically hold Ruth’s fragile mental state over Billie. Basically saying, “Be nice or I’ll do my best to make sure Ruth either a) ends up hospitalized again or b) actually kills herself.” She knows what buttons to push. She got a great example of what to say from Rachel five seconds ago.
She’s fucking evil.
Yeah, and Ruth isn’t even the target now. She’s just a means for getting out from under Billie’s thumb.
I really wish there was a truck with Mary’s name on it.
Right, but is the rest of the dorm gonna put up with that?
As, oh, how about that, Rachel put it at the beginning of Book 7, this dorm can multitask when it comes to hate.
Does Mary care about the rest of the dorm? Her number 1 target right now is Billie.
Mary cares about Mary, end of.
Billie’s leaving. Unless you’re suggesting that Mary intends to torment Billie with the possibility of Ruth being bullied by Mary.
And, again, is every person in the dorm really gonna let anything Mary’s plans slide?
So far, Rachel is very demonstrably doing exactly that
Billie is leaving at some undetermined point in the future when a room elsewhere is available. Basically never.
Billie is absolutely the target.
And even then she’s not actually leaving, since she’ll be around visiting Ruth all the time – even if she’s not just living in Ruth’s room.
There is still the benefit of Billie being able to go to higher ups and report Mary for suicide baiting and the bigoted comments to Carla. Billie may have something to lose, but she has the better weapon if Mary tries anything. The rest of the floor and Chloe have only half the information, so Billie would be effectively sinking any hope Mary had for higher standing among anyone. That’s why Mary didn’t report her for assault after getting punched.
I wonder if joyce is still writing everything down…
*gasp* That’s right!!
I really hope at some point something happens to make Mary desperately need Ruth’s help.
…I’m trying to think what would be the more satisfying outcome there. Ruth agreeing to help in some way that takes the wind out of Mary’s sails in regards to her… generally everything. Or Ruth being able to just go “no” and walk off to leave Mary to her fate.
Ruth: no.
Ruth starts to walk away…stops…starts to walk again..stops..thinks
Ruth: God damnit..Mary…wait up.
Although I feel like Carla is more likely to have chronic hero syndrome.
carla: “i’m not going to let you persuade me into being a hero. nope, you gotta learn how to clean up your own messes sometime. i know that i’m the only competent gunslinger/engineer around here, but i can’t keep bailing your ass out of the fire. i mean. i know mary, and you know mary, and we both know she’s lower than a snake, but i won’t let you persuade me into helping you make a plan to deal with her. although i’ve always said you can’t do a good creampie to the face too many times. and i have been working on some drafts for this. okay, you persuaded me, i’ll help.” -looks off into the distance- “it is my lot in life to carry this burden of…ugh….feelings. don’t tell anybody.”
ruth: “i didn’t even say anything.”
carla: “and that’s the way we’re going to keep it.”
“Ruth, I need condoms!”
What’s she need condoms for, her constant attempts to fuck everyone around her?
“I think, is it still necessary if it’s 3 guys at once?”
I’m so lost. What’s going on in this scenario?
The juxtaposition between what we know about Mary and the thought of her having gratuitous sex is amusing.
That word choice is fucking golden. “Gratuitous.” I fucking love it.
Well, didn’t she has premartial hanky panky in It’s Walky and got pregnant? I haven’t finished reading but there was some hints in the latest parts I read that she has started getting morning sickness
Mary, when Billie punches you again, I think I may just make that panel my gravitar… I might change it to the first time you got punched soon anyway
Mary — you’re the ‘holier-than-thou’, everything-by-the-Good-Book character, right? Try re-reading Matthew 18, specifically verses 21-22, and then come back and see me.
You too have something to lose.
No she just pretends she is. She’s actually just a sadistic crazy bongo who needs to be punched in the face.
Either my typing is off or the website correcting bongo into bongo, yet allows me to drop F-Bombs. This is a test.
Yep. B-i-t-c-h confirmed to be corrected to bongo, yet I can say fucking.
Fucking isn’t a slur, the b-word-for-women is.
I find it strange nonetheless given the fact that we put emphasis on certain words and rank them in some form of hierarchy, with the word “fuck” somewhere near the top, at least in my experience.
There’s also probably some notion of censorship I could discuss, but that would be utterly pointless given the fact that this website is technically private property, I’m not American and therefore don’t hold quite as high a standard of free speech, and I’m incredibly tired.
But hey, I learned something, so that’s neat.
Most people rank anti-women slurs much lower on the bad-word scale than being a slur really calls for, because they’re pretty normalized. Fuck is a pretty neutral-value word that targets no one particular group.
Fair enough. And this would be a fairly interesting discourse to get into if I didn’t have to type around words in case of possible censorship (let’s call a spade a spade, even if it doesn’t come with all the negative connotations). Well, as I said, I’m incredibly tired, so I’ll bid you farewell and maybe there will be some other form of discussion we can have in the future.
Honey, I don’t think you actually know what a spade is.
I believe it’s not so much that it’s necessarily a worse word than some that aren’t censored, but that it got filtered some years back in response to being heavily overused over one particular strip.
Now it’s mostly just amusing. Especially when people go beyond the filter to talk about percussion instruments.
Or banjos.
(what…?)
Just thought I’d mention that this is not something new here on this board but has been the status quo for at least three or four years now. And off-hand, I can think of at least three or four ways I could probably get around it if I really wanted to.
I think it’s pretty hilarious when people stumble upon the bongo filter.
My favourite is the Tuesday one.
My favorite was the SJW one, but it’s apparently been removed.
And the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25.
Next page: Joyce chokeslams Mary into the floor.
I’m still waiting for her to chew up Rachel.
“And here comes the Christian on a Mission, Joyce Brown! She’s opening the match with a Stone Cold Stunner, a nice throwback to her mentor!”
You. I like you.
*applauds*
Next up: flipping tables and chasing people with a whip!
Yyyeeeessss!!!!!
….
Also, now I picture Joyce becoming a luchedore and doing a lot of high-flying top rope moves. And it is awesome!!!
Someone punch Mary in the teeth.
Teeth are pointy. Do not punch teeth.
Punch stomachs and groins instead, you’re less likely to injure your hand.
Or necks. Or kidneys. Noses will probably hurt without gloves, but there’s a reminder of the moment for a few weeks afterwards.
Hit the soft parts with your hands. Hit the hard parts with a tool.
Man, commenters are being pretty angry at Mary despite her most likely never getting her way for the forseeable future.
She’ll still hurt lots of people.
Is there a correct and prescribed level of anger for a homophobe/transphobe who has literally tried to drive someone to suicide?
No, but people are reacting like Mary’s already done something.
She has already done quite a lot of something though.
Except, you know… all that other stuff she did.
Remember how she helped put Ruth in the hospital and the gloated about it? She has already done something, and I guarantee you what she’s going to do next will be just as vile.
“C’mon, why am I being arrested for trying to murder someone? It’s not like I actually succeeded.”
Do they give a Nobel prize for attempted chemistry!?
The only thing keeping Mary from getting her way is Willis’ pledge that no one dies in this strip. IRL struggling people have no such protection.
What does not kill you still hurts a -lot-.
Just wondering.. Somebody mentioned there were some Mary apologists hanging around, making excuses for her. Making excuses how? What kinds of justifications could you have for this kind of behavior?
If I had to guess (and this requires attempting to comprehend an eldritch state of mind), something along the lines of “She’s only doing what she feels is right.”
So did Osama Bin Laden.
Bonus points for not invoking Godwin!
Careful, now.
honestly i’m not sure “doing what’s right” ever occurs to mary
things are right because she does them. she doesn’t do things because they’re right to do.
so she’s doing this because she wants to do it, is my guess. bypass the superego and straight to the id.
Does she actually think the things she does are right? Or is it an end justifies the means situation where her religious beliefs get enacted on earth so she figures she’ll be reware in the hereafter?
Basically, I’m wondering just how self aware Mary is.
she really doesn’t seem self aware. like, at all.
like. mike is self aware. he does the shitty stuff he does because he wants to, but he has, like, reasons and perspective and insight.
mary? she does this malicious bullshit out of. i dont know. spite. hatred. malice. she has no control, she just friggin’ goes for it at every conceivable opportunity. i don’t think there’s a whole lot of thought put into ethics, just whatever she can get away with.
idk it’s all so pointlessly cruel that i personally am just thrown for a total loop as to the inner workings of her mind. i hope she gets a villain monologue or something just to answer that question
“She was just trying to study”
See, Ruth, EVERYONE is not sad you are back.
The eye dots are back for good? Even Joyce has them. Never mind Amber.
Also yes Rachel, you made Mary smile even more. Think about that.
Look at Joyce’s eyes, she doesn’t have a depressed look to them – she looks very surprised and stunned by what’s going on.
My headcanon is now that Joyce will befriend Ruth
I do have to give Mary a slow sarcastic clap here. *slow clap* She’s really out done herself here. I thought she’d back off and regroup after the punch but she doubled down. I doubt anything will happen. She might even get punched next strip, but hey kudos for determination.
This is the other shoe I have feared since Billie decked Mary. When a bully is sent to do an RA’s work it will escalate, and Mary is GOOD at bullying.
aaaamber 🙁
Can someone just off that gremlin already…
I wonder if “alliance/reaching out” is gonna end up a theme for Book 7.
Sal, Amazi-Girl and Dorothy tracking down “Ryan”.
Leslie giving Becky a home.
And, perhaps, Joyce, Amber and Carla forming an anti-Mary force.
I hope that everything converges at some point so it’s basically everyone vs Ryan, and yes that everyone includes Mary.
Nah, turns out Mary starts dating Ryan (pastor’s son after all) and then she gets to see her boyfriend getting beaten up and put behind bars. 😉
I don’t know if I’ve hated a fictional character as much as I hate Mary. Just seeing that shit-eating smile feels me with rage. I think the reason for this is that I’ve actually met people like her, people who believe everything they do is righteous, even when it’s clearly wrong because they believe in Jesus. It doesn’t matter the pain they cause, because the only people getting hurt are the sinners who deserve it.
…Does Mary actually have an angle here besides just being an asshole for the sake of it (not that this would be surprising)? Everything she had on them in terms of blackmail material has already been exposed. Billie might have something to lose, but Mary has nothing to gain.
Billie dared to stand up to her by punching her, so Mary has to be her incredibly petty self & make Billie’s life miserable so she can get revenge.
Mary will gain a sad Billie.
Ruth just promised to never hit Mary again for any reason. So now Mary knows she has carte blanche to be as much of a dick to her as possible. Either Ruth just sits and takes it and Mary gets to enjoy that, or Ruth loses it and hits her again, thus “proving” that Rachel was right all along.
mmmmmmmmmm that’s a little of a false dichotomy
like ruth never really had to hit her. she has other options. keeping records of mary’s conversations with her, talking to Chloe, reporting the things she does, etc
ruth doesn’t really have to do anything mary wants her to do anymore, because all the blackmail mary had is gone. all mary has left is guilt-tripping, and if ruth can figure out how to weather through that mary is gonna be an unpleasant force that can be dealt with by not giving a shit
the art is in figuring out how not to give a shit, and ruth really isn’t in a good place mentally for that
Although Billie hasn’t promised not to.
Granted, Mary could file charges… if she’s still able to. (And, when you’re dealing with Nazis, punching is ineffective – they’re not going to be embarrassed, it just martyrs them without eliminating the threat. Either counter them with ignoring them, rhetoric, or deadly force, nothing violent in between rhetoric or deadly force.)
And, Willis’s reason for nobody dying is because the mourning would take over the whole comic… but nobody will mourn Mary.
That, right there, Mary. That’s the kind of thing that leads some people to ask “did you notice our caps? They have skulls on them.”
I love that reference. :3
“Pirates are fun!”
I prefer “did you notice your caps? They seem very breakable.”
No, actually she doesn’t have anything to lose.
I know violence is not a good answer, but I Mary hope gets slapped/punched, she’s been asking for it the last couple of strips.
Some people are on Team Ruth. Some are on Team Rachel.
Everyone is on Team Fuck Mary.
I’m sorry Mary, I thought you were supposed to turn the other cheek (so it can also get slapped).
Why do you hate Billie that much
I do not like you Mary.
Can Mary just please get hit by a bus or something? She seems to have no redeeming qualities what so ever…
Your friendly reminder that Mary is evil.
And all I taste is bile.
You know, I wish this on very few people, given that it’s the single most awful thing I’ve ever felt in my life (tied with the death of my grandfather) … But you know what? I fucking hope Mary has a panic attack. She alone deserves one.
Oddly enough, lying (even self-deceit) has never been something Mary is good at. For someone who waves their piety and supposed moral superiority around like a flag, she is curiously open in her malignance.
In her mind, her malevolence is divine punishment.
the righteous wrath of the LORD
I feel like she’s literally so compelled to be shitty that she can’t even do well at hiding it.
She takes pride in stoning the sinners? Delusion is an amazing thing.
God, if Mike and Mary hooked up, it would end up being something like the scene where Zuul met the keymaster in Ghostbusters, wouldn’t it.
“are you the keymaster” “are you the gatekeeper”
… n o p e
“I think that would be extraordinarily dangerous.”
I really don’t get it. Does Mary really have nothing better to do than making peoples lives worse?
Where does she get the time for these things?
If this is her hobby, then perhaps the floor could pitch in to buy her a gaming console or something so that she can spend her time on better things than being uncool to people.
Well, she tries to study, but people keep disturbing her by making noise in the hallway or being gay in her presence or other horrible things.
She draws anime Ronald Reagans and studies sometimes. But the amount of LGBT+ nearby calls upon her primal nature so she must hunt for the blood of the innocent as is the call of the Demon Lord that requires fresh sacrifice every blood moon.
What do you mean that isn’t what is happening and that she is just using God as an excuse to torture people because she is sadistic and petty and vindictive.
Ok Rachel, now tear into Mary to prove your not just vindictive but willing to stop bullies.
She just gave a speech about how people never change. I think that uncludes people like Mary. Which is a very defeatist attitude, but about Mary, she might just be right…
Well, yeah, because Mary doesn’t want to change. People that don’t want to change will not change even if it would be easier for them if they did.
Mary, my dearest, darling girl. Having something to lose means having something worth defending. And Billie is not the type to do that by keeping her head down. You may wish to tread lightly.
Or not. Not is good, too. Just wait for me to pop some popcorn, before you do anything.
…so much evil… O.O
Comic Reactions:
Welp… fuck.
Pinpricks: I want to focus for a second on Panels 1-3 Ruth, Panel 2 Billie, Panel 3 Joyce, and Panel 4 Amber, because by now we’ve established a visual language for full dissociation in trauma response for Ruth, which is the pinprick black eyes.
And in each one of their faces in those moments, we see those same pinprick eyes. Ruth is terrible because we’ve seen what she’s put up with today and how hard she’s fought to cling to the tiny shred of functionality she tried to rescue with 3 days of hard work only to have the last piece of it blasted out of her hands here when all of her armor had already been carefully stripped away by “sir” grampus.
And it’s why cathartic tear-downs of suicidal folks, even ones you see as evil is a really dangerous thing, because you really are ending up playing around with someone’s life, which is a very fraught thing.
That doesn’t mean accept the abuse of folks who use suicide attempts to trap you and avoid speaking your mind or getting to a point of safety. Doesn’t even necessarily mean you don’t let them have both barrels with no regrets.
But it means you have to acknowledge and accept the fire you are playing with.
And that becomes especially clear when we note the spread pinpricks. That Panel 2 for Billie is a waking nightmare. We know she’s been terrified of not being able to help or save Ruth. That she feels weak and helpless. And now for what must be the what, the 2nd or 3rd time today watched her girlfriend be shredded apart and not be able to help?
And worse yet, this seems to be the one that delivered the killing blow to Ruth’s newborn functionality. Like, every other one, she’s managed to crawl her way back up to green eyes after a couple of panels. But in this one she’s staggering away just as pinprick as she was yesterday and so Billie’s night now becomes a nightmare, where she’ll not be sure her girlfriend will be able to… well, will be able to anything tomorrow and she’s thrust right back into the worst of it. It’s terrifying for her.
And Amber, looking down, pinprick eyes, static frame. It’s a confirmation that Rachel’s chosen mode of attack has absolutely devastated her and just grabbed ahold of every last one of her fears. And she may be the worst one of all, because we know she doesn’t have much of a support network at all and tends to internalize everything and bury it rather than seek support.
And last but not least, poor Joyce. She was doing really well a few panels ago, but again, that Rachel job was designed to hit exceptionally hard for her as well. She’s been on a redemption path and has only just realized the inherent violence of some of the ways in which she was raised to believe and support. She needs to believe that she can make it right and in many ways she has done so amazingly well.
And Rachel, all to tear down one mentally ill woman, just slammed as hard as she could on that fear that that is impossible.
And well, here’s the thing, that’s something that’s going to hit especially hard for Joyce because she was raised in a field of Christianity where people can be “saved”, yes, but also where Calvinism reigns and one jaunt on the path of sin can make one irredeemable forever.
And she already worries that she’s damned to hell by her transformation and now Rachel says she’s damned as well in being true to a secular morality.
It’s a chorus of suffering that was entirely preventable.
I get why Rachel felt the need to say what she did. She may even believe some of it. And I hope one day we see her find out what the full context of what she did when she did it was and can sort out her emotions about that. I don’t know if we ever will. I don’t know if she would accept it even if she did.
But I hope she gets a chance to understand so she doesn’t make this sort of mistake in the future.
Amen.
I agree with you 100% on all of this.
Wait, what the fuck, Joyce is in panel 3?
-checks tags-
-checks panel 3 again-
hoooooly shit she’s unrecognizable without those big blue eyes good job rachel
Every time Mary smiles I mentally add devil horns to her head. Seriously all she lacks is a red bodysuit to look like the friggin devil.
tempted to crop marys face onto that smiling devil with the flame background pic
I can actually almost see the flames of hell burning in that last panel…
the worst part is, that could actually be kind of hot. -_-;;
(no, the actual worst part is that, like Robin, under the hotness is all kinds of awful.)
I find the fact that Mary has a character design that is very equivalent to what I find attractive in real life actually multiplies my hatred of her. Because attractive people tend to get away with more in our society.
Panel 2: This one hits, because yeah, the garbage brain of depression always feels like the only one that tells any real truth and Rachel just reinforced the fuck out of it after “sir” grampus added his own steel plates to the edifice.
But that’s the real lie. What Rachel said was bullshit, just as what Ruth’s brain is screaming now or what “sir” grampus screamed at her before was bullshit.
But it’s going to be a lot of years before she ends up fully believing that.
Panel 3: I want to believe that this face on Rachel is a sign that it’s dawning on her how much she just fucked up, that she went too far. That she just retraumatized someone fresh out of the hospital, that there’s a lot of pinprick eyes and devastation that wasn’t there a minute ago. That the only person seemingly happy after this affair is the person who nearly murdered the person she was yelling at.
But I’m also somewhat frustrated by her. Like, again, hate people who’ve hurt you. I’m not going to tone police that, but she keeps having little moments that are just infuriating.
Whether it be glaring at Ruth after her little rant as if she was expecting her to… what exactly? Break down weeping? Admit to her perfidy? Voluntarily walk out of her life but not in the permanent way that is most likely after an action like that?
Or whether it be moments like this. Like, she saw Mary pull her little not-at-all-subtle act of passive-aggression and knows more or less the full story of what she tried to do and why. And she’s seeing her as the only one supporting her and happy. But does she turn to Mary and let her have anything? Does she move to support Joyce and Amber who clearly have been collateral damages to her rant? Does she try and reach out to Billie, the woman she just got through claiming was in an abusive relationship and needed to get out?
Nope. Not a single thing. And she doesn’t do anything here when Mary makes her horrifying statement at the end of this. And it just reinforces something that’s been niggling at me, which is just how cowardly and selective Rachel’s actions are. Like, for someone who claimed she could multitask, we don’t see that. For someone who is acting like the brave defender of the truth, she sure is only waiting until the people she attacks are at their most vulnerable and unable to inconvenience her in any way.
And that’s whatever. Not everyone needs to risk their well-being to escape or tell off an abuser and sometimes after so much disempowerment, you need your catharsis where you can get it, cause you’ll never get a real win that’ll make up for what happened to you.
But it nonetheless bothers me. Maybe it’s because I’ve just spent months risking quite a bit and getting the physical and mental health consequences for that risk to stand up to a person with intense amounts of power over me. Maybe it’s because I’ve seen too many people with Trump work so damn hard to normalize fascism and our complete dissolution of democracy because resisting anything is scary and it’s easier to just beat up on women who voted for Hillary because they were not pure enough.
Maybe it’s finally seeing the exit of my shitty head-of-school only to have the teachers who intentionally kept their heads down and stayed silent to protect themselves get all puffed up about how “all” of “our” hard work paid off and aren’t we “all” so glad.
It’s petty, but it makes me less forgiving of Rachel’s flaws in her approach here, because I’m not fully believing in her supposed convictions, that this is a rant she couldn’t have kept inside from all her pain. That this wasn’t, in the end, more about tearing Ruth down when she was vulnerable, unlikely to strike back, and an acceptable target than about actually standing up to a bully and an abuser (and Ruth was very much was a bully to her floor and was very much an abuser to Billie before they first got together).
And so the whole thing just bothers me.
have we ever seen rachel do anything supportive? have we seen a shred of empathy? all I can remember right now is her tearing people down.
There’s a quote I half-remember, but can’t find on google. it goes something like: “To destroy is easy. If you would be great, learn to build.”
The closest I did find was this: “To destroy is easier than to create, and that is why so many people are ready to demonstrate against what they reject. But what would they say if one asked them what they wanted instead?” — http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/449432-l-ska-a-smet
Yeah. I like that quote. Even though Rachel isn’t obligated to Ruth, in general it feels better for her to blow off steam than walk away. I’ve always said to get better and better, you have to ask yourself the difficult questions. There’s no other way of getting around it.
Rachel helped hide Becky – she was part of the queer girl underground.
IIRC, she also admonished Roz to ease up on Joyce at one point.
But, generally, she’s only supportive when being supportive does not involve sticking her own neck out in any way.
Rachel is reminding me of my father here, and not in good ways. All of the determinism, absolutism, cowardice, and complete and utter certainty that she, in particular knows the One True Way Of The World.
My father is one of those people who always has to pretend to being the Big Damn Hero. He will make damn certain that anyone within earshot knows he, the middle-aged asthmatic nearsighted hard of hearing guy with arthritic hips, would be their damn savior in the event that “tyranny” strikes. Any time there is a story in the news about some authority figure abusing said authority, you get treated to a rant on how he would’ve given that asshole what for, on how his kids would’ve had his unquestioning support in such a situation and generally how he views himself as a virtuous Crusader for Justice ™.
Over here in reality-land, every. single. time. he – or someone in his family – has encountered an authority figure throwing their weight around, he folds. When I got sexually harassed by airport security at 16 in front of him (middle-aged airport security dudes explicitly threatening to strip-search me on trumped-up reasons if I did not submit to a pat-down from said dude so he could fondle my 16YO chest fat and implicitly threatening to do a whole lot more than just strip-search) and protested, he told me to shut up and take it (in exactly so many words). When my sibling had a teacher who was stalking and harassing her, he insisted she must be making it up until such time as proof surfaced (another student recorded some of the class), and then he insisted she must’ve brought it on herself somehow, and once another kid filed suit and won for harassment from the same teacher, it was still my sib’s fault because y’know if she’ hadn’t been so damn emotional about a middle-aged dude devoting hours out of the day to try to make up excuses to get her expelled for literally no reason, he’d’ve believed her sooner. Could go on.
The literal ONLY time he would ever take a stand was when it was safe and the hard part had already been done. To use a comics analogy: He’s the bystander who yells “Let that be a lesson to you!” and kicks the already-restrained villain after the hero has finished thwarting the villain’s plan, as if to cover the fact that he was cowering and pissing himself in a corner not five minutes earlier.
And the thing is, I do not view cowardice, in itself, as a fatal personality flaw. Hell, I consider myself a coward. Cowardice is a personality trait and survival mechanism rolled up in one, and if you are a coward, it’s probably because you’ve learned the hard way the cost of not playing it safe and keeping your head down. I don’t consider it the moral ill that so many seem to.
However, what I have negative time for is hypocrisy and deceit. The Rachels and my dads of the word act tough and strong to hide their cowardice. They would be the first to proclaim from the highest mountain the evils of cowardice, and the first to urge jumping to a war footing… so long as they don’t have to be first over the breech. And that’s what pisses me off. The demand that everyone else live up to standards you yourself cannot meet.
In that respect, Rachel and Mary are two sides of the same fucking coin (just as Roz and Mary are two sides of the same coin on the ends-justify-the-means belief. Roz is what happens when that is used to good ends, and Mary is what happens when it’s not).
The thing about the Rachels and the my dads, as well, is that they never consider the implications of their rants – because it’s not about whatever they’re ranting about, to them. It’s about puffing themselves up, and making themselves look good and feel like the Big Damn Hero. Collateral damage doesn’t exist because in that moment other people are just NPCs in their hero’s quest. If you do have the audacity to get hurt or upset by their actions, well that’s just your own fault – in a superhuman feat of projection, they will insist that you wanted to “misinterpret” what they were actually talking about, even if you’re taking exception to something they literally just said in so many words. You’re looking for an excuse to get upset and feel angry so you can feel good about yourself and feel superior.
And they will never, ever admit they made a mistake. Big Damn Heroes don’t make mistakes, after all. Can’t have people thinking they’re just an ordinary, small, cowardly person who’s as fallible as anyone else, after all.
… and to be clear: I don’t hate Rachel on this front.
But the hypocrisy runs deep in her, and it’s fucking showing in spades.
I mean, hell – I don’t like Roz, but at least Roz admits openly that she’d use people. She’s honest about her duplicity in a weird way. Hypocrites just piss me the fuck off. You do you, but have the fucking integrity to own up to what “doing you” is and the fallout of that.
Like, I still stand behind saying a few days ago that it seems like Rachel has first-hand experience of abuse – she’s too angry and too close to it for this to be an academic thing to her. And that is a heavy mitigating factor in my opinion of her.
But fuuuuck. She just burned through all the goodwill I was willing to extend her earlier and then some.
Rachel, Rachel, realize who is on the same side as you here and exercise some fucking self-awareness of whether you really want to be aligned with Mary of all fucking people.
*Appropriate gesture of support* And yeah, that also makes a lot of sense and would explain why I’m so bothered by her behavior as that type of inconsistent hypocrisy is one of those things that heavily sets off one of my alters.
i honestly kind of wonder if mary has invested some time in lying to her about ruth
Ugh. I’m sorry.
But, thank you for sharing all of that.
Hmm. That makes sense, and… also reminds me of Lars. (which reminds me, time to watch more of season 5!)
OMFG. Season 5 was just what I needed. 🙂 soooo cooooooolllll. now I *really* wanna see what the other roses are like. also more blue diamond.
Oh, oh my god. I’m horrified that those things happened to you and your sibling, neither of you should have had to deal with that *offer gesture of support*. Also, I want to say that you’re very brace for being able to share that with us. Thank you for being comfortable sharing, and I hope this can continue to be a safe place for things like that.
“Whether it be glaring at Ruth after her little rant as if she was expecting her to… what exactly? Break down weeping? Admit to her perfidy? Voluntarily walk out of her life but not in the permanent way that is most likely after an action like that?”
The way I read her body language makes me think she was expecting her to… to fight back.
It’s sound silly to us because we know a lot about Ruth’s inner world and vulnerablities, but it’s like… when we, as humans, see a person as a villian or an enemy, it’s easy for us to paint them as mustache-twirling monsters with no inner struggles or fears or thoughts (Yes, even with the suicidal attemps, our brains are very good lairs sometimes. It’s a human fault). We’re not all as bad as Robin about it, but on some level it’s easy to see yourself as a heroic underdog and your enemies as superstrong villians you need EVERYTHING to beat. and it’s espacially easy to do it with an abusive R.A. who has projected an image of terror and power for the two years you’ve known her and only became “the depressed person who attempted suicide” a few days ago.
I think she was expecting Ruth to answer her, to fight back in some way, to deny her accusations – and that’s why she wanted to make such a big dramatic, and maybe overgeneralizing speech from it (I mean her speech is defos overgeneralizing, but maybe it’s overgeneralizing her own beliefs for the sake of making a point against Ruth). She went in to defeat Ruth the Dragon in her weakest state and using her most powerful attack, but she didn’t quite expect her to crumble against it like she did. (And not even in a big show-y guilt tripping type of defeat… like if she did start crying and apologizing, it’ll be easy to chalk it up to emotional manipulation. Ruth’s not even doing anything that will obviously get her sympathy and outright stopped Billie from defending her)
Will it make her regret some of the things she said? Will it make her realize how much her words could be LETHAL to Ruth? It did seem to soften her expression in the other panels, but I don’t know about pernament changes, my money is that she’s still more likely to learn her lesson from all the collateral damage she just did
That makes a lot of sense and I think you’re right about that. And it would make sense given the persona Ruth worked so hard to project up until very recently as that persona was covering up a lot of stuff happening under the surface.
This post is fantastic.
The way she’s looking at Mary in panel three gives me the impression that Rachel is beginning to have the beginnings of an “Oh shit” moment. And given what Mary said in the last panel and what little we’ve seen of Rachel in the past, I have a feeling when she turns around and sees Amber and Joyce that “Oh shit” moment will become complete. Rachel needs to make things right with Joyce and Amber as quickly as she can. And in the eventual future come to a truce or understanding with Ruth. As in Rachel can still hate Ruth, can still not give her a second chance, but admit she went to far at the meeting and just agree to have as little to deal with each other as possible. Like Cerb said before it’s ok for people to recognize that they’re toxic to each other and it’s ok if Rachel hates Ruth forever, but Rachel needs to realize the very treat harm she did here. And I think part of what might help make that eventually happen is what Ruth says in the second panel “Being able to lie to yourself seems like a neat trick, actually.” It feels like a recognition of Rachel’s accusation while also saying that Ruth doesn’t lie to herself (of course we know that Ruth does lie to herself, but not about what Rachel’s accusing her of lying about), that she doesn’t have any illusions about what her actions were or about how people view her.
I think it’s worth pointing out that the last panel indicates that Mary is getting up in Billie’s face and quietly letting loose that last line with the way the text bubble is wavy.
Rachel also doesn’t really know anything about Joyce or Amber to figure out why what she said was so awful to them.
CW: Suicide, horrible horrible people, transphobia, homophobia, ableism
Panels 4-5: Welp, that clears up the last shred of doubt that maybe Mary didn’t realize that her actions of stripping away Ruth’s entire support network, feelings of hope, and options would lead to a potential suicide attempt and possible death.
Cause, yeah, this last line of hers is a full and cognizant statement on her part that she understands that Ruth’s depression is something she can press on to kill Ruth. And she is stating quite plainly that she does not fear Billie because she can kill the woman she loves if she tries to stop her on her reign of terror against every queer and non-her-type-of-christian in the hall.
It’s a violent threat. And well, it’s not uncommon. I’ve spoken before about the folks who collect trans kid suicide attempts like downed planes on a WWI fighter plane. About those who play games fucking with the mental health of anyone who admits to depression because they see it as “cleansing the weak from the world”.
Because for those who hate a certain category of people, suicide can be a bloodless way to “solve” a “problem”. Similar to how bigots of the past saw AIDS as a “solution”. A means of directly killing someone that cannot be fully connected to you and which you are unlikely to ever see jailtime for, but gives you the rush over having the power of life and death over someone.
And while I would love to limit this to just assholes like Mary who do this, there are whole movements of people who work tirelessly to do every small cruelty they can to try and encourage young queer kids to kill themselves. Whether it be attacking any representation on any show the kids may watch, fighting hard against anti-bullying ordinances, passing ordinances that make it near impossible for kids to believe in a future, encouraging parents to disown or abuse their kids to “fix” them or encourage them to become “holy”, or trying to shut down mental health supports wherever you can.
There’s good money in being that pointlessly hopelessly cruel. So of course Mary is all of that. Of course she does it while putting the least believable patina of “aren’t I such a bigger person who is so glad Ruth is okay” there is.
And of course Billie’s threat is absolutely worthless to stop her. Because Billie has a conscience and is not willing to get anywhere as vile as Mary is willing to do in order to stop her.
And sadly for all parties, this whole affair has shown that the forces downstairs are asleep at the wheel, so even if she’s told on, it’s unlikely she’ll face a single consequence. And as long as she keeps punching down and avoiding direct violence, she can coast on that edge trying to kill off those she sees as polluted because of the way they are or the way they love.
And the worst part is Marys are a dime a dozen. They are everywhere. And if you are queer, chances are you’ll meet at least a dozen of them in person before you even see your 18th birthday.
And it sucks that we make young queer and other marginalized folks survive this gauntlet of murderers. That we don’t value them enough to actually do something about the harassers, the bigots, the out and out fascists.
That we don’t value them enough to care when they die in the shadows without ever getting a chance to truly live.
And I’m so so tired of it:
http://www.thetrevorproject.org/
is it just me or are most of the links on that site broken once you leave the main page? (also, anyone remember the canadian equivalent? I’m sure there are several, but can’t remember the names)
Its worked for me..it could be the outside US thing or sometimes internet connection is just slow
I’ve said before that my close personal clique is entirely LGBT+, and growing up oh boy were those bully-to-suicide murders everywhere. None of my friends died at any stage of their schooling, and a few of them said that I helped because I was the only straight cis person in the group (I only recently started questioning my orientation and think I might be biromantic or something like that) and as a result I helped remind them that not all straight people wanted them dead, that there were straight people who did love them, and that I was always there as an emotional rock when they needed me. I remember a lot of lunch periods in middle school and high school comforting a crying friend because some bully had said they were only good for burning in hell, of getting detention because someone broke down during class and I followed them to the bathroom and was a shoulder to cry on, and of college nights spent talking on the phone to a friend who needed to hear a friendly voice while theirs was trembling. Those aren’t happy memories but they are cathartic, defining memories for me. And they’ve filled me with a disgusted hate for people like Mary. If souls are really, then those kinds of people who think driving someone to suicide is fun don’t have them.
I always wonder how Mary can be well….so Mary despite apparently being on an art program; I mean yeah the alot of pretendiousness in the arts but there’s alot of discussions about the rights of the maginazed and lots of projects about the celebration of women rights , and the liberation of sexuality , at least in my experience
I hope Mary’s karmatic payback is swift. That Rachel’s karmatic payback is also swift, but not as swift as Mary’s, and that Joyce and Amber get the support network they each need. also, I hope someone breaks Mary’s kneecaps. And then that she ends up with severe anxiety, and gets told “Why are you so anxious? There’s nothing to worry about.” and has her mental health issues dismissed as callously as she’s behaving.
“Gotta go now, the puppies won’t kick themselves”
God almighty, that woman’s a conga.
I meant conga.
C-U-N-T.
You know, if there’s a word filter against a specific word but not most other swears, maybe you should wonder why it is in place and maybe find some other way to express your opinion.
Just saying.
ROFL, looks like we found another filter! 🙂
Was it the c-word?
Hahahaha this is funny, I didn’t even know that word had a filter.
c’mon everybody do the bongo conga
Do you believe removing a bongo’s congo.
Okay. Her choice of words cements it for me that Mary isn’t just subconsciously trying to kill Ruth.
Just when we needed the reminder that Rachel isn’t the worst person in the room.
If Mary is in the room, do we even need other people on the list? Excluding horrible parents, I think the bongo formerly known as Ryan is her only competition for people who are so horrible anyone else look lovely in their presence.
Clint and Blaine jump to mind.
I did say excluding horrible parents. The list would be too long ranging from Toedad to Naomi, so I tried to narrow it down to fellow students they have to deal with on campus.
The only difference between Mary and the awful parents is that they have more power than her.
Let that sink in.
Punch them both billie! Or try to tell them they are both shit! I mean why the hell is anyone taking this seriously!? I mean really?! WTF!
I still say Mary is a psychopath. Not that it in any way lessens her responsibility for what it is but that it fits her personality very well. Her inability to empathize in any way, her superficial charm, her desire for public approval, her need for power over others, and her complete disregard for long term gains over short term cruel enjoyment.
Huh, that actually kinda fits.
Mary can be neurotypical still express very little empathy, fake charm, have a desire for approval, have a desire for power and be so petty and vindictive that she blinds herself to more effective and long-term solutions because these are all traits that can occur in abusers and almost all of them are neurotypical with less than 1% being neurodivergent.
Psychopaths and people with ASPD (which is a personality disorder that is similar but not the same as psychopathy that tends to be confused with it sometimes) would probably look at Mary here and go ‘wtf is wrong with you’ like everyone else because they’re often victims of abuse themselves and Mary is a manipulative abuser to pretty much everyone she doesn’t like.
I know I keep saying this but can we please stop treating mental illness as a shorhand for Evil Bad McJerkface.
People who suffer from mental illness are thousands of times more likely to be victimized than they are to actually harm someone.
Why in the world would you believe attributing a condition notable for reduced empathy and known narcissism that I would hope Mary would get help for to be a condition that renders all mentally ill people to be psychopaths. That’s a bizarre and disturbing comparison, especially as the person which Mary is abusing is mentally ill herself.
Mind you, I believe it’s a much more common condition in RL than people believe and that large poritons of the people who have it live perfectly normal lives. Including the guy who did a study of the neuro-chemistry and found out he was one (but was a perfectly normal family man aside from having a loud personality).
And I could be completely wrong about it.
I’ve said this before, but it is entirely possible for a neurotypical person to be as awful as Mary. A sturdy belief system can reinforce basically any shitty behavior.
Mary is a everyday vicious asshole convinced that God is on her side.
The reason is that it contributes to the association of mental illness with violence AND decoupling neurotypical people from it. A lot of people automatically jump to thinking about anyone who does a horrifying thing as mentally ill. They divide the world into “us” and “them” where “us” are blissfully normal and fine neurotypical people who never do terrible wrongs because anyone who does is automatically sent over to “them”.
I don’t know how you can fail to spot the problem with this worldview.
(This is what leads to discrimination, hatred, segregation, all the stigma and inability to find a job or stable housing, to people feeling justified in refusing to associate with mentally ill people, and specifically psychotic people – after all, if every single “psychopath” belongs to that category, it only makes sense to make yourself definitely safe by not being around “weirdos”, right?)
(“Being a horrible person” is not a mental illness)
eeeh yeah no. This is good old neurotypical “I think these people are not really people and therefore refuse to empathize with them” bs. REALLY not seeing any sign of actual mental illness there.
So much wrong with this.
A) Psychopathy is not a real mental illness. The thing you’re probably thinking of is called Anti Social Personality Disorder.
B) Correct me if I’m wrong, but generally when referring to empathy in these disorders, they’re referring to the ability to feel other’s emotions in a sort of echo, NOT the ability to like other people and want them to be happy. In fact, part of treatment for ASPD is to give them some sort of (supervised) nurturing role, like with an animal or teaching children a skill. The idea being that by teaching them things will make them like that role and want the animal/kids to succeed. From there, you can use people they like to discourage certain behaviour in terms of self interest (Ex. “I like X. If I do Y, they said they’ll be sad. I don’t want X to be sad. Better not do Y.”)
C) Even when it WAS a thing, psychopathy was thought to be caused primarily by genetic predisposition, to have no empathy (in the sense above) and be very good at hiding it. Mary is terrible at hiding the fact she’s a shitheel.
I stand corrected. Thank you for educating me. I also believe strongly neurotypical people are far more likely to be violent and dangerous than the reverse.
Umm I have a question and I want to apologize before hand if this offends anybody but I really need to correct so ignorance on my part that could cause me to offend or hurt someone unintentionally: what was the difference between psychopathy and sociopathy? And is sociopathy still considered a thing? Once again, I want to apologize if this question comes off as insulting or offensive. That is not the intent. But I do recognize that this could be very offensive and that’s why I want to avoid making a mistake involving these words in conversation.
No, that’s not an offensive question. It shouldn’t be offensive to not know things. It’s a genuine one and many people are not well versed in the knowledge of psychological disorders (including myself and a few people here).
According to the DSM V what most laypeople think of as sociopathy/psychopathy falls on the spectrum of AntiSocial Personality Disorder. I’m too lazy to summarize, so I’ll link.Hopefully the site lets you have access to have access to the article, it’s an interesting one:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK55333/
Back when those diagnoses were a real thing (because, again, they are not any longer) these were the differences
– Psychopathy was primarily caused by biological factors, sociopathy was caused primarily by environmental factors.
– A psychopath had no empathy or attachments to people (so, even with people they like, if they leave or die, there may be little to no reaction to it) as described above and was very good at hiding it. A sociopath, by contrast, had a little empathy as described above and a few attachments and was TERRIBLE at hiding their lack, often resulting in angry or violent outbursts.
– A psychopath tended to be more clinical and calculating, while a sociopath tended to be more emotional and seen as hot blooded, being more nervous and angry.
– A sociopath has a very different mode of morality than the populace (often based in self interest) while a psychopath simply did not CARE whether something was right or wrong, as long as it served self interest.
Again though, neither of these a real disorder anymore, and the preoccupation is more pop/’dark underground’ psychology. Major personalty disorder theorists, like Millon, have said that it is not a real thing, and Antisocial Personality Disorder is the correct term.
…welp. Guess I’m genuinely terrified of Mary now.
So… what did Ruth do that hurt Rachel so bad that she was the one calling Ruthless out as still a monster?
I mostly remember Rachel being a witness and not a participant before this scene and could use a refresher on whether I should read this as a supporting friend attacking a bully or a victim proclaiming the damage behind the hurt is still oncoming.
I think it has less to do with Ruth and more with being victim of abuse in the past
Nothing that we actually know of. We have never seen Ruth harm Rachel. It is more likely past experiences haunting Rachel than Ruth herself and she is taking it out on Ruth by being absolutely merciless to her at the one time in which Ruth has no fight to stand up to her with with absolutely no care about how much her words could have and did hurt everyone except Mary.
I’m seeing a lot of people wondering what Ruth has done to Rachel personally. We don’t know their history yet, but I would just like to point out that, assuming Rachel has been a victim of abuse in the past, it is completely and utterly traumatizing to be forced to watch others experience abuse.
For example, say dad abuses mom but not the children. The children are still traumatized because they are witnessing dad to terrible things, even though they might not be the literal targets. They still develop the coping mechanisms required to not be abused, because they have no way of knowing if they will ever become targets.
It’s entirely possible that all of Ruth’s antics while she was depressed Rachel has been watching and has been triggering for her at certain points.
Like, I can be in situations where I’m not living with my abuser and I even hear someone else being screamed at and trashed and I completely have the emotional memory of being screamed at and trashed, even though the screamer is not talking to me. It’s the reason I can never work in environments where the boss is a giant asshole, because I simply cannot endure being yelled at and treated like I’m a total idiot or watching people being treated that way nearly everyday anymore.
Oh, look at that, Rachel. You hurt everyone in the room who was trying to improve themselves and empowered the abuser who has no intention of improving. Good job with your high-and-mighty SJW bit.
There may be fatalists among people who work for social justice, but I think most would say we’re not fated to be misogynistic, or homophobic, or abusive, or violent. We can do better, if we try.
Can we not use SJW as an actual phrase? It just cheapens the persons opinion.
In Injustice 2, Hal calls Ollie a social justice warrior. Ollie says “proudly.”
“please don’t let me die.”
Yeah, I feel that is likely what is playing in Billie’s head a little in that 2nd panel expression.
WELP THANKS FOR MAKING EVERYTHING LIKE TEN TIMES WORSE no like this is. this is much needed background, thank you
I soooo wanna choke that bongo >_<
lol, well played, anti swear system, well played
it’s a very narrowly targeted anti gendered slur system
old timers just say ‘percussion instrument’ by now
Or just type “bongo”.
I’ve taken to using in other places as well. I want to see if we can get it to catch on.
I’d like it to catch on. 🙂 I just wasn’t sure if it was considered to carry the same problematic connotations as the actual b-word.
also, is “percussion instrument” another filter, or are people always intentionally typing it out? 🙂
I’m pretty sure people do that deliberately as a joke or to show some sort of awareness of the filter.
Banjo. It’s all about the banjo.
With his choice of replacement words, it appears that Willis is encouraging a dance party.
you are the first person i’ve seen in the last couple of days to get caught by the filter system and not try to spell out what their original word was, CONGRATULATIONS You WIN SOME KIND OF A PRIZE
I wonder if we can use the anti swear system to make a bunch of swears make sense. 😛
For instance “I play the bongo and another percussion instrument”.
It only targets what Joyce would call the B-word, the C-word, and a popular quote about Tuesdays and the relevance thereof.
I’m still confused about this tuesday thing, can someone demonstrate? I heard the original quote last night, I think, but what does it turn into?
It gets blanked out.
Mary is such a horrible person. That smile … UGggh she makes me sick.
Just need to see Mary get suplexed out of a window and i will wear that scene on a shirt forever more
Yeah at this point I’m convinced Rachel has been abused before. Suddenly quieting after a massive rant, and her face in the first two panels, speaks that this is way more personal than she’d care to admit.
Not like it makes what she said any better, or that it hurt people any less, but I think I understand it and I hope (and am hopeful) that Rachel won’t just become a Mary-type villain out of this.
Also Amber’s face in panel 4 is murdering me.
I think this is something Amber needs to hear, she is cool and all sure, but she is vigilante.
She’s just been told she’s a violent thug whose every attempts at fixing the poison she’s been saddled with from her dad are just lies she tells herself.
If you think that is acceptable please stay the fuck away from me.
What Amber needs to hear is that being Amazi-Girl is not safe for her or others, and that it’s also not a healthy outlet for her anger. What she does not need to hear is that people are irreemable. Hearing that will add to the feelings of inadequacy and her fears that her anger make her the same as her father and will only worsen her mental state. It may also make her, as Amazi-Girl, harsher on those she fights because if there is no redemption, then they cannot change and be redeemed either so they need to face her full wrath.
Absolutely not. This is the last thing Amber needs to hear. It reinforces all her worst problems. Her belief that Amber is a horrible person and the need to dump all the bad stuff onto that alter to keep Amazi-girl pure, since any taint or failure is permanent. Makes AG even harsher both, as Andy said, because her targets can’t change, but also because she can’t allow anything less than purity in herself.
That speech was the opposite of what Amber needed to hear. In my opinion, I think Amber needs treatment. She has to believe that she’s not this awful atrocious human being. That way she can maybe believe that she can throw off her father’s chains.
But the amount of support she needs to get even to the place where she doesn’t blame herself for one thing that happens to her in her life is beyond the scope of anything anybody there can give her. I hope one day she can make it, but the journey she’s on is one that doesn’t get solved in just one day by listening to just one speech.
Yeah, I think she was just done with her rant. The way she threw Billie under the bus in the before-last strip does NOT sound to me like she has intimate experience with this. She was expecting a different reaction, is all.
She thinks Billie is a victim of Ruth’s, possibly the same way she was victimized by someone else if I’m right.
Real talk? I have experience with dealing my abuser constantly attempting to vindicate herself for her actions, so Rachel saying this to someone who all she knows of is:
– She’s an abuser.
-She got everything back.
It makes perfect sense to me. Especially the quieting down part where you blow up in anger and just lose all your steam. She probably wants Ruth to yell back about how changed she is just to validate those feelings.
I agree. I think that’s what Rachel was expecting, too – a huge fight. But it didn’t happen and now she’s having a moment where she doesn’t know what to do next and so what she said is sinking in for her as well.
except she also knows one third thing about Ruth:
She just got back from the suicide ward that day. Not a full day has past since she returned.
So sure Rachel’s anger is understandable but what she said, yesterday, in actuality, crossed the line into unjustified. because even without the full context, she was fully aware of that fact and chose to ignore it.
Whereupon Ruth walks back in and tells everyone that she’s back, has faced no consequences for her actions, still gets to keep her girlfriend, and she’s super sorry.
This isn’t a calculated attack on Ruth. This is Rachel lashing out at a perceived unfairness for pretty obviously personal reasons. It isn’t right that Ruth has her job back, even if that isn’t Ruth’s fault.
Ruth is probably under no illusions (if any) now about how her behaviour was perceived by some on the floor
So silver lining (if possible) is that this was cathartic for Rachel so I wouldn’t expect more scenes like this because shes got it out of her system and informative for Ruth as she can see the full consequences of her actions (I’ll concede that one may be stretching it a bit)
okay at this point what you’re saying and what i’m saying aren’t actually conflicting pieces of information and we’re really just talking about different aspects of the same thing, so
gg I guess
Oh jiminy christmas panel 5 Mary! Do you not see yourself? Also, who thinks that Rachel is going to become a more major character? I’d welcome that, since I think she’s Jewish and I always welcome more Jewish characters, even as sympathetic antagonists
I think Frank Burns’ great-granddaughter is attending university in Indiana. And as time has passed, the evil has multiplied.
Unrelated question.
Why is it no one seem to know their human rights, and why is it that schools don’t teach them?
Your first question is answered by your second question and the second question is that most people don’t take law or politics, just civics, and civics is more about how government works.
The sad reality is that the only ‘human rights’ one really has are the ones you are able to defend for yourself and the ones that others (whether that be individual bystanders, a community, a government, or whatever) are willing and able to defend for you, which varies wildly by both location and individual identity. A wealthy white heterosexual couple in an upscale suburb has the right to feel safe and secure in their home. Meanwhile, someone who’s black, or muslim, or gay, or trans, or homeless, or worse some combination of the above, may ‘forfeit’ their right to live on the random whim of a passing white man in shockingly many parts of America, despite the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness allegedly being the most fundamental founding principle of the country.
^ This. A ‘right’ that is not defended is only passing wind.
Let’s oopsie daisy her face.
Nothing more Christlike than the desire to hurt others #SarcasmMode
Also, I kind of want someone to give Mary a Decepticon insignia mask now:
“If you want to break someone—mentally, physically, emotionally—wait until they’re happy. Let them live and love and thrive. Once they recognize the value of a life well lived… THAT’S when you move in for the kill. Because you can’t take anything from someone who has nothing to lose.”
–Agent Tarn of the Decepticon Justice Division
So does that make Rachel Getaway?
I’d kinda like to see a comic in which Mary hangs out with people who actually like her and think she’s pretty okay just to see how Willis pulls that off.
I imagine it’d look like something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
Funnily enough I’m at work so the filters won’t let me access their actual homepage
… I don’t think the WBC would accept Mary.
Even they have standards.
their standards are hating everything imaginable
i mean it’s amazing that they hate donald trump, but still
So is Mary just actively evil now? It seems she’s gone from just believing she’s better than everybody based solely on her religion to active scheming for the sole purpose of hurting other people.
she’s been doing both for a while my dude.
why is she hellbent on ruth/billie again? is it because they’re bi/lesbian?
Yes, you start. Plus Ruth was getting in the way of her openly throwing transphobic slurs at Carla.
Now, she has a vendetta against Billie for standing up to her and punching her stupid face. There’s nothing a bully like her hates with greater passion than someone standing up to them.
I see Mary and Rachel are fighting hard for “Biggest Villain of DoA”
So you think Rachel (whose main “crime” seems to be that’s shes justifiably angry) is on the same level as Mary, Clint, Ryan or Blaine?
Wow, just wow
lmao right? blane, toedad, sir, mary, whoever the fuck let ruth back in anyway.. the list could go on.
I mean I’ve no fondness for Rachel here but
BUT that’s going over the line
Rachel is on the level of…who’s the woman Sarah has trouble with, again? A “well-intentioned” person who’s ALMOST on the right side.
I don’t think shes even that, Rachel is angry and that’s making her emotions override her common sense
Its not good but its understandable and, unless she continues it on, not malicious
Same. Not everything has to be about right/wrong, good/bad. I get why the thing Rachel did actually was pretty bad, but what I don’t get is people saying she’s an awful coward. She’s just a person that’s having a very negative moment right now.
To me Rachel is a teenage girl and so she probably doesn’t like the thought of being physically assaulted (who does) so to me that’s a very valid reason for not speaking up earlier
Rachel played by the rules by getting Ruth help and by letting the authorities know what’s happening and now, in her eyes, absolutely nothing has happened and she only has Ruths word that things are going to change
Should she have said everything she said, probably not
Is it understandable shes ticked off, I think so
Is she a coward and as bad as some are making her out to be, probably not but only time will tell
Yup, exactly.
I’m not saying I hate you or anything Mary.
But if you could like, slit your own throat, and bleed out into this bucket right here, so I can use it to redecorate the walls of my room, that would be a huge help.
Don’t be ridiculous. Blood makes a horrible paint.
daaaamn you know the writing is good when you audibly whisper “son of a bongo – not the filtered word
And you know you’ve been reading DoA for a long time when you mutter “well, ain’t this a bongo” – and use the filtered word out loud.
And now everyone is back to hating the most easily hatable. It’s comforting, but lacks good debate.
I like a good argument, but not everything needs a debate.
Besides, Mary makes a good contrast against other characters who might do bad things, but aren’t exclusively bad people.
“Not everything needs a debate.”
If only more people understood this.
Oooooooooookay. I will say this now. Mary is not a religious person. Or, I should say, Mary’s religion, while it may certainly inform her bigoted words and deeds, it is not the impetus behind her actions. Mary is a psychopath. In that I believe she suffers from a sever antisocial personality disorder and is a sadist. She is actively cruel, she knows how to cause pain, and she enjoys causing pain against those groups whom she has been given license by her religion to hurt.
I’m sorry, but neurotypical people are very capable of being as every bit as sadistic, cruel, and just generally evil as Mary.
If that makes you uncomfortable, it should. But playing armchair psychologist like this is stigmatizing to people with real mental illness.
And have you met any neurotypical person who has said the things that Mary says in such a mustache-twirlingly self-aware “I’m a Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain” level of malevolence? Perhaps you have. But generally, the people who I have met who are wicked almost always invariably saw ~themselves~ as decent people who were simply fighting back against those who were victimizing them. They always saw themselves as heroes of their own story and victims, which justified their lashing out and abuse against the actual victims.
Mary on the other hand? She makes no pretense. She does not appear to have any of the cognitive dissonance necessary to maintain her own self-image as being a decent person. She is simply evil incarnate.
Mary absolutely sees herself as the hero of her story. She’s God’s humble servant, gracing these faithless sinner’s with her presence.
She doesn’t even really see her victims as people in any meaningful sense. Homosexuals and transgender people and atheists and those who fail to condemn them properly are all going to hell anyway, so why should she feel the slightest bit bad for any pain she causes them while they’re alive?
Why, with luck, maybe it will help turn them from their wicked paths and towards Christ! Or at the very least, stop them from being able to corrupt others with their “lifestyle choices”
I agree that Mary’s faith isn’t the driving factor. She’s naturally a mean, nasty person. But she uses her faith to justify that. To reinforce her behavior even despite social pressure that might allow some measure of guilt or doubt to sneak in. Because that would just be the Devil trying to tempt her away from her “righteous path” and into sin.
Cults, white supremacists, terrorists and their like all deliberately seek to instill a similar sort of feedback loop in their initiates, because that’s how a perfectly healthy, neurotypical mind can be convinced to do unspeakably evil things.
People like Mary are real, and as others with first-hand experience have noted in the comments on this strip (and many before it), not at all uncommon.
neurotypical people are actually much more likely to be saturday morning cartoon evil than neurodivergent people. ND’s are infinitely more likely to be on the receiving end of this sort of abuse. This sort of abuse is usually the result of elitist or entitled thinking, which has nothing to do with mental illness.
I agree. Both Mary and Mike are total sociopaths. Both need beaten.
Mike is at least tolerable enough to have friends, unlike Mary.
She is far to emotional to be a sociopath, sociopaths are by their weary nature cold and calculating.
a lot of sociopaths are plenty emotional. The determining factor of a sociopath is the lack of a conscience, or the feeling of guilt specifically. Yes, they view the world differently, but many of them are well adjusted and would never intentionally harm someone for similar reasons a neurotypical person would never. People who are medically a sociopath are no more likely to go off the deepend than neurotypical folk.
I hope that someone beats her up and puts her in hospital.
That would only make her double down even harder, because then she’d have an actual reason to hate that person.
My first reaction to this strip is to shudder. My second reaction is that there’s a parallel with the strip from May 13 regarding spite. For Ruth, it was Howard’s pain that spiting Clint would gamble on; for Billie here, it’s Ruth’s.
Psssst. Mary.
Grampy says…
http://tmi-comic.com/comic/grampy-says-016/
Here I thought it’d be Grampy from the Betty Boop shorts.
Does Mary really not realize how evil she is?
Jesus fucking Christ, this god damn comic can never be happy. End of story.
And yeah, we got little bursts of contentment and we got little moments of happiness like the next strip, but nope, nobody can be happy.
Why is Rachel so against Ruth? Did Ruth ever abuse Rachel? Does Rachel think Ruth’s relationship with Billie is abusive? Or what? — I think we all think Rachel is a sweetheart, and I know we all know Ruth has sometimes been a hard pill to swallow, but I still don’t know why Rachel has a specific beef against Ruth. I just went through all 33 “Rachel” comics without sussing it out.
Good lord comments back at it again putting Rachel talking down to a bully on the same level as toedad and blaine like… good to know sexism is alive and well.
Rachel is probably the victim of some sort of personal abuse for her to take such a hard stance. Her stance is very helpful for healing in some cases: if you forgive an abuser, then you’ll let them back into your life and let them hurt you again. Rachel is coming at this with all the right passion and mindset on victims- however, probably due to her own personal experience, it hasn’t occurred to her that Ruth is also a victim who is trying to break that cycle of abuse who’s likely been taught nothing but abuse.
She’s going into this acting like they’re all established adults- and was probably forced to grow up too quickly so now has the false notion they’re all set in their ways when really they’re only like… 18-20. They’re still teenagers. They can still change.
Everyone calling her names and seeing her as a villain because we’ve seen Ruth’s development and Rachel HASN’T is just stupid. Come on, guys. It’s entirely possible Ruth reminds Rachel of someone who abused her and she’s preemptively trying to protect other wouldbe victims. I don’t think she’s beyond accepting that she could be wrong about this, she probably just hasn’t seen an example in her real life where people can change.
Thank you!
Her stance is… also remarkably similar to the stance of many abusers? I mean, there’s a chance she’s a victim — like I said elsewhere, those can look very similar — but as a fellow victim, I’m still pretty horrified by her conduct, especially without thinking whether it could end up hurting any other victims?
Then again, my particular abuse has beaten any ability to stand up for myself or deliberately put myself before others out of me, so I spend much of my time arguing with people who literally want me to die or spread terrible, life-ruining lies about me as both a method of self-harm and a way I can stand up for myself and others without feeling like I’m the villain.
See that is one way people can react to abuse, I know plenty of people (including my own sibling) that has absorbed that inability to stand up for yourself mentality. Standing up for yourself = more abuse. Rachel reminds me a lot of what else it can do to you: make you ANGRY. Anger is a stage of grief and one people can revisit very often when recovering.
The difference between Rachel’s stance and an abuser’s stance is the prioritization of the victim. An abuser would never prioritize a victim or anyone they see as weak.
Thanks for the response.
Also, I should amend — It’s not always with people who think I should die or spread lies about me. It’s also people who think I don’t deserve rights, who think that I’m not allowed to talk about my problems, who feel similarly toward other marginalized and victimized people, and who think I’m a monster for wanting the “wrong” people to be included in communities that will provide them with the help and resources they need where other communities will not.
Generally, horrible reactionaries of a variety of stripes, because it’s one of the only ways I can stand up for myself and not feel like a monster.
Another place I tend to draw a line is with being factually incorrect.
But… doing it in person or over the phone is almost impossible for me, even in such circumstances, and standing up for myself online in most other situations? Either can’t do it or I feel like I’m a monster for doing it.