The Dumbing of Age Book 6 Kickstarter
has hit $55K, which means the last of the originally-forecast stretch goals has been hit, and we’ve got Jacob and Joe magnets. There’s new pledge tiers for Jacob, for Joe, and for Jacob and Joe together! Remember, you can do a PICK THREE MAGNETS tier if you’ve got a double-magnet tier and would like to add one of them, and also if you’ve got a COMPLETE MAGNET POWER thing going on, these guys are added to your pile.
Which makes it… twelve magnets total, I believe! That’s how many we did last year, but I might throw on a lucky thirteenth in the final week, just to say WE DID MORE. It’ll be a repeat character (in a new look, of course) from previous years, and I’ve put a poll up on Twitter to see where the demand is: https://twitter.com/damnyouwillis/status/854436651812233216
UPDATE: OH AND I ADDED A “PICK FIVE MAGNETS” PLEDGE TIER. (you will actually receive six magnets, since Becky is free) BUT HEY IF YOU WANT MORE THAN THREE (four) MAGNETS, THIS IS YOUR DEAL
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“I WILL PROTECT ME, WITH FISTS AND ASS-KICKEN, YOU SEXIST CHAUVINIST”
PREPARE FOR BUTT WHOOPIN’
*ass kicken
(haha kill my lonely)
Because of “fists”, and “chauvinist” in the next line, I read “ass-kicken” as “fried chicken”.
Mild dyslexia is cool.
I read “ass-chicken.”
Not fists, one fist… multiple times. Also, I remember mention of a spoon… Joyce can be pretty scary.
“CHEESE IT, I STILL HAVE A SPARE WRIST, I CAN FIGHT.”
Does…does Becky not know how enfranchisement works?
Well, she did lose literally everything she owned or was a part of when she came out except for the clothes on her back and her best friend.
It’s the difference between having the right to do something and having any form of access to actually exercise that right.
In other words, what’s happening to early voting and abortions.
(haha, politics)
Yup. Or hell, to voting in general now thanks to the abolishment of the Voting Rights Act and the open attempts to mass disenfranchise voters or otherwise corrupt free and fair elections.
I feel like in America, we’re very quickly learning that rights without access to actually using said rights aren’t actually rights at all.
To Becky, Leslie is a living, breathing version of the It Gets Better Project.
Hopefully minus the biphobia?
Huh, it was biphobic? That’s uncomfortable. I’m bi and didn’t know that, I was in my mid 20s and liked watching the videos when I was hella depressed, even though they were meant for at-risk youth instead.
I think that’s in reference to the Dan Savage thing. I haven’t heard anything specific about biphobia linked to the project itself, although admittedly I’m far from an expert on the subject
I’m just going to pop in to say that, for a horrible moment, I thought everyone was talking about Fred Savage. I was like “Fred Savage is biphobic?! No!” Freaked me out for a second. Anyway, never heard of this Dan guy. Sounds like I should keep it that way.
Dan Savage is, dunno about the individual videos. If it helped you out, more power to you.
He was biphobic like a decade ago, but cleaned it up imo. I’m out of date, though, as I haven’t really been reading/listening to him since I discovered Captain Awkward. I like Captain Awkward the most.
…..either that or I have really rose-coloured glasses. That is also totally possible, particularly since some of his ideas were really positive pieces of my development.
I think I will spare myself from going back to check.
Hey, if those particular pieces helped, they helped. If he’s spouting bullshit you didn’t know about, that’s on him. You didn’t know about it. And now you do!
What BBCC said. Problematic people make great works that deeply touch folks all the time and it doesn’t take away from those works or those positive feelings that the creator is awful.
Rosemary’s Baby is a great film even though it was made by a rapist. And those like you helped by his columns are still helped regardless of his shitty views on other groups.
And knowing is half the battle!
(The other half is punching congresspeople.)
Thank you for educating me in these wee hours, sleep well!
And the acephobia* and the transphobia and the misogyny and the fatphobia and the shitty attitudes towards consent and the…
Like I think there are key aspects of the It Gets Better campaign that are super useful and important and that help young kids hold on through really awful shitty times, but Dan Savage himself is a goddamn mess that does so much fucking harm it’s not even funny.
*Seriously, this is the one that pisses me off because he was considered the sex guru for awhile and he keeps on shitting on the ace community in really awful horrifying ways like stating that if we date allo partners we’re committing abuse against them by denying them their sexuality, that if we don’t date each other that we deserve physical assault and rape, that we are just making up our identities because we’re bored and want some of that sweet oppression and dismissal, that we are broken and lying and some good sex will cure us and make us “normal” again.
So yeah, love It Gets Better, loathe Dan Savage with the fury of a thousand purple, black, grey, and white suns.
It doesn’t change anything, but he doesn’t share or promote those views anymore. He has apologized and has been very ace, trans, and bi supporting recently. Not that it makes it magically better, but it’s good for the people to are currently turning to him for advice.
See my link below. He’s still selling the “if you ace folks don’t just date ace folks*, you should ‘take one for the team'” shit as recently as February of this year.
He keeps apologizing but he keeps repeatedly fucking up in the same exact ways.
*He’s really concerned that we’re “hurting” folks by dating allo folks and really big on us dating each other or no one though he’ll pay tiny pieces of lip service now and then to the idea that an ace/allo relationship could theoretically work. It’s frequently condescending at best and horrifyingly offensive at worst.
Ahhhhh “with-holding sex is abuse” an oldie and a baddie!
Seriously, fuck that noise. If it’s about withholding affection or trying to ‘punish’ your partner, just fucking say that and don’t bleat about how people are abusive for ‘withholding’ fucking.
A lot of his issues as a sex columnist stems from his weird idea that denying someone an orgasm is a wrong greater than or equal to pressuring someone into sex they are not enthusiastically consenting to.
When that intersects with ace stuff, it can go in even more horrible and harmful directions that worsen the already strong cultural normalization of pressuring ace folks into having sex to “prove their love” or “fix them”.
I’ve seen that particular bit of bullshit come up in abuse symptoms too. Ugh.
“If you loved me, you’d show it” (euphemism intended) is some of the most dreaded lines for romantic aces, cause we get it so often, sometimes way more explicit on the “it” we’re expected to “show” and it’s always just an awful experience when it happens.
I’ve been fairly lucky that all my major partners have been super respectful of my boundaries and big on communication about relationship structures, but I’ve had to do the intervene and comfort thing before when one of my ace mentee’s partners did that shit in public.
And frankly, it’s pretty damned lousy for any relationship, ace or not. Especially for teen romances, where that narrative still runs deep, if not as strong as in my youth.
Whether they’re ace or not, someone who doesn’t want sex with you, even if it’s just “not yet”, doesn’t need to be pushed.
😮 Nobody should ever *ever* be made to feel that they owe somebody else sex. And even if somebody may potentially enjoy sex under some circumstances but has their doubts – that’s hella more likely to happen if it is their decision, they feel comfortable and safe, they know they can stop what’s happening at any time…
You wanna convince an ace person to enjoy sex (or anybody that they might enjoy sex with you or somebody like you)? Literally the absolute worst way I can imagine to achieve that is by pressurising/forcing them.
Even saying ‘I won’t pressurise you at all, if we do it’s your decision, but I hope we do’ shows a bit of a fundamental misunderstanding about who the person they are with IS – but people want to be in relationships they should respect the people they are in relationships with!
Not ace, but have health conditions and a toddler who insists on being rocked to sleep by me most nights (doesn’t sleep through, fights bedtime…) plus work full time so spend much of my life exhausted and in pain. Love the husband but he accepts that this means that we have the opportunity less frequently than ideal and sometimes I am way WAY too tired to want to do anything other than use an early night to sleep. He isn’t convinced I can physically cope if we have a second, and when he’s been tipsy he has grumped about it – being a bit annoyed while accepting it and not arguing with it – and it doesn’t affect how he feels about us… But yeah, part of the reason I am with him is because I know I can trust him and he makes me feel safe, respected and loved. And unfortunately his attitude is not universal and that upsets me and makes me feel as punchy as Joyce is in today’s strip (love protective Joyce) 🙁 But standing up and calling an abusive partner/rapist what they are and making it clear that this is not normal or acceptable is the only way that things will change…
Also, I don’t understand his “reasoning” because it’s not like asexual people are forcing allosexual people into relationships with them. If a given relationship’s not going to work, it’s not going to work, but if all involved find a way to make it work, then they’ve made it work and why does he care? He talks like he’s protecting allosexual people, but they have agency and are free to stay or leave as they want….
Yeah, that part is super gross cause it reminds me a lot of those gross concern troll articles about trans folks and how to “protect” cis people who may date them. Same infantilization of the “protected group” that actually holds more social power where it’s presumed they don’t have agency and same demonization of the out group that is actually marginalized where them just happening to date people is couched as some sort of violence or threat requiring violent or angry response.
I realize this wasn’t there when you said it, but since it is now – check the link Cerb sent below. These are not ‘old views he doesn’t share anymore’. It’s stuff he said two months ago. He’s a rat.
Fair enough. I tend to think of him as the DADT of advice columnists: an important middle step that we’ve completely outgrown–wait, what? He advocated raping ace people?! Dafuck??!
I guess that must’ve been after I stopped reading, and you’re making me very thankful to have done so.
He’s big on the “take one for the team” philosophy and one of the bugaboos he keeps on cycling back to is the idea that if an ace person doesn’t date other ace people, then they should stretch and stretch their comfort levels and “take one for the team” regularly so as not to “harm” one’s partner by denying them sex and he’s been on that kick since at least 2003.
It’s gotten pretty bad at times and it’s something he still circles back to over and over again no matter how many times the ace community goes “what the fuck” at him and tries to educate him.
Like, hell, this was 2 months ago:
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/dan-savage-should-asexuals-take-one-for-the-team/Content?oid=5110033
Like, that’s not even close to the worst of it, but it’s still… after over a decade of people carefully educating a supposed expert on sex and sexuality on the basics of consent and asexuality, a sign that he’s very committed to being a jackass on this.
I think I need to go educate myself on asexuality, because I don’t understand why an ace person would want a monogamous relationship with an allo person, that sounds really awful for the ace person? Dating each other does sound like a far better idea to me on its surface, or open relationships that work for everyone…. bc woah yes people should not have to have sex that they don’t want, that’s obviously not cool.
http://blenderbender1811.tumblr.com/post/158123832920/inclusionist-masterpost
http://blenderbender1811.tumblr.com/post/155439875225/the-aphobia-masterpost
Resource bomb!
I dropped a couple links to resource filled posts, they’ll be out of moderation soon, I hope.
Well, I mean you fall in love with who you fall in love with and statistically, you’re more likely to meet and connect with allo folks given how much more of the population they are.
Like, poly relationships are pretty common and certainly the dynamic that works best for me (it’s a lot less stressful for me and reduces a lot of the cultural pressure), but there’s some mono ace/allo relationships. How they can work can greatly vary.
There’s the fact that some ace folks are grey-ace or demi and experience conditional sexual attraction or intermittent sexual attraction. There’s the fact that some asexuals have sex for their own reasons. There’s the fact that some allo people are okay with a low or absent sex life or engaging only in activities the ace person is okay with (such as kink) or find the romantic parts of a relationship the more fulfilling aspect.
And like sometimes it does all fall apart because of sexual incompatibility and that’s just how it goes. But where things get ugly is this cultural entitlement that a relationship must equal sex and sexual attraction and that is owed to a partner or that a lack of sexual attraction is a statement on the worth of the partner. As this often leads to a lot of cultural and interpersonal pressure often on the ace person to “compromise” or “take one for the team” for the other’s needs and it’s a large reason why the sexual assault numbers against asexuals are so high among asexuals of all gender and why we’re frequently the target of corrective rape.
TW: sexual assault
My own rape came shortly after I told the individual in question I was ace and I’ve been heavily creeped on and sexually assaulted before after mentioning I’m ace because some fucks see that as a challenge or a direct attack on them that needs to be “made right”.
And that’s what frequently makes his advice ugly. Because he takes what could be good advice “have a frank and open conversation about relationship structure that includes sexual needs and figuring out the incompatibilities” and turns it frequently into this “grr, ace people date your own and stop hurting us by falling in love with us” crap and this “pressuring is totally okay because they’re totes cockblocking you” nonsense.
And that’s the stuff that tells allo partners of ace folks that it’s okay to pressure them into sex they’re not 100% sure about and ace folks that they are broken and should expect to make “sacrifices” to make an ace/allo relationship work (where in reality, mismatches are not the end of the world and it’s okay for a relationship to end without it being a grand condemnation on the folly of ace people falling in love with allo people).
Honestly, it all bothers me a lot because it doesn’t get a lot of attention but any frank conversation with ace folks reveals just how ubiquitous this shit is (like seriously, I may eventually just do the study myself cause we desperately need real numbers to this because informally I don’t think I’ve met a single romantic ace person who hasn’t either been assaulted or had to deal with some aggressive pressuring).
@Cerb:
See, I’m basically totally in the closet about ace stuff in person, even though I’m pretty sure I’m some sort of demi in that regard…and am basically that exception you haven’t met, well with a few conditionals I guess.
Those being that I’m a super standoffish person behaviorally, shy I guess really but in a way I’m pretty sure pushes people away generally. I’m pretty plain except for being thin and weirdly lanky as well. The only date I’ve ever been on was a religion sponsored group date where my randomly assigned date immediately went to hang out with the person they actually liked. I also tend to avoid most places that are billed as being places to “meet people” (which in this town are just bars).
So, yeah usually at best I make friends with a few people because I try to be a nice person, but noone is actually “interested” in me, and the few I might potentially be ‘maybe interested in trying to see if that sort of relationship even would work for me’ towards, well I chicken out of trying because I worry about whats “expected” in that sort of relationship and get too easily jealous to consider any sort of poly relationship of that sort.
I’m very glad that you haven’t gone through the awful stuff. *appropriate gesture of support*
Me too. Its kind of depressing that other people have though. Also terrifying, but that doesn’t really shift my mild paranoia beyond where it already was anyways.
Sorry you did have to go through awful stuff I can’t even imagine how bad it was. *appropriate gesture of support*
BBCC & Cerb — that is very generous of each of you to share. Cerberus’s comment is very illuminating indeed, and BBCC I’ll follow those links for sure when they come out of moderation. Thank you again for taking the time and energy to help educate us.
I hope they are helpful! Many of them are tumblr posts, but some of them are newspaper articles or scholarly studies. Godspeed!
Apparently he’s also said if we don’t want sex, we can just “stay home and do nothing” with regards to Pride, as if Pride is all about sex, and being pressured by society into heteronormative sex/relationships isn’t a commonality between being asexual and the rest of the LGBT community. I know not everyone feels comfortable with whether the A belongs in LGBTQIA, and I’m not even sure I personally feel part of it, but outright telling people “you can stay home and do nothing” is super-awful to me.
I’m not sure how well I can argue against that…since “stay home and do nothing” is my general approach to free time when it comes to life in general, but with it being in the context of helping out with the movement or community, yeah that doesn’t sound right. I mean Pride if nothing else is still a place where as far as I know even heteronormatives offering support for the LGBT community are generally appreciated, even if they’re just trying to support a specific friend or family member who are part of the LGBT community. Denying asexuals even that much contribution with that in mind seems yeah, exceptionally horrible.
That said, honestly its starting to sound like this guy’s overall mindset isn’t that different than the “stereotypical bro” who tries to bill happiness and personal well being as “how often you get laid” and tells women they’re depressed because of that or whatever.
Elisto- Yeah, it’s super shitty. Like ace people are totally free to have their own opinions about their connection to the general queer movement, but to try and argue we’re not part of it when many of us have faced homophobic and acephobic violence for not being straight is pretty super shitty.
Krys- Honestly, that’s a fair summary of him in my opinion. And it clouds parts of his advice that could otherwise be decent.
I got tired of his “if you’re not giving your partner what they want, you’re the problem” a while back.
Forgive me for doing that stereotypical privilege thing and asking the minority to educate me, but what should the advice be for allos that are in relationships with ace people? Having sex with our romantic partners is kinda intrinsic to a lot of our identities. Maybe it doesn’t have to be that way, but it certainly is asking a lot of a partner to forgo romantic sex completely. So how should a person who but craves a sexual romance behave? For that matter how should the ace partner behave?
I think literally the best thing to do would be to talk to the ace about it and go from there. I think I’m ace, or at least some shade of it, and I would be 100% OK with talking about our respective views on sex and where to go from there. All aces are different and you either figure something out or you don’t, if worst comes to worst then you both can move onto different partners that can give you each what you want. The worst thing to do is to put pressure on and assume that sex is a given in a romantic relationship with an ace, at the end of the day if an ace person says “I don’t ever want sex, its not going to happen” then that’s that.
tl;dr : literally just talk to your ace partner about it and go from there.
Same thing you do any time there’s a difference between what you each want that affects both of you. You sit down and you have a serious discussing about what you want, what you don’t want, how important it is to you, and how you can help each other be as comfortable as possible.
What the others said, talk it out. Treat them like the equal partner they are and have an open non-pressuring conversation about relationship structure and what each of you envision that looking like.
Basically, it’s the same thing you already do with potential partners. Like most folks talk out with prospective dating partners where they like to go on dates, what their schedules look like, are there any allergies or foods you can’t have if you’re cooking for them, what is and isn’t sexually fulfilling to your partner and what they do and don’t consent to, do they have pet allergies, do they have existing kids, etc…
So, just adding a frank and (this part is super important) non-pressuring conversation about sex and the relationship is important. So not saying, well, a relationship means XYZ sex activities but more “I tend to like this sorts of stuff, what do you have experience/like/feel comfortable with” and listen to them and what their boundaries are.
If it’s incompatible, it’s incompatible just as it would if you were looking for different things from a relationship or if you have a beloved pet and they have an allergy to that type of pet and you can go from there figuring out how to handle that or walking away.
If not, you do with that info the same as you would any of these other questions.
And speaking only for myself as an asexual who does have sex, a lack of pressure is key for me feeling safe enough to have sex. Like, I don’t get direct pleasure out of activities, so for me what makes it worthwhile is the emotional fulfillment of my partner and the intellectual satisfaction of creating a pleasurable experience.
But that means I have to a) love, trust, and want to make happy my partner and b) feel safe enough that this is something I have chosen freely to do rather than something I was pressured into doing because it was “due”.
This last part frequently is an important thing not only for other asexuals who have sex, but people in general. It is fairly rare outside of service scenes for someone to gain much pleasure out of feeling obliged to do a sexual task as the pricetag of a relationship.
I admit, I didn’t know about the bi-/ace-/etc phobia.
I would like to argue that, based on what I’ve seen, the actual project doesn’t actually seem to promote those things. Even if the guy who started it has problems, it doesn’t mean he controls it with his beliefs. I’ve at the very least seen some pro-bi stuff.
I also would say that, if he’s getting better, that’s cause for celebration. Not to say that you can’t be upset about the bad stuff. But, if he’s headed the right direction, maybe he’ll get over this apparently personal issue he has with sex.
I’m gonna guess that it’s personal for him–that he had a partner who withheld sex as a form of punishment. Or, at the very least, he was socialized to think sex was bad and thus has run the other direction entirely.
But, even if he is just a jerk, I still say that the movement he started (but doesn’t in any way control) is still a good thing.
He’s not getting better. See above.
I like the It Gets Better Project. Others have their critiques about it, but I feel it fulfills an important role in reducing the amount of queer kids who kill themselves and that means everything to me.
I dunno, I tend to find compartmentalization easy (maybe it’s a DID thing, I dunno), so it’s easy to like that program and think it’s amazing while absolutely loathing the man who created it for all the pain and harm he has caused communities I belong to.
Not necessarily a DID thing, it could just as well be that you’re fine with recognizing that things can have great aspects and awful aspects at the same time, as they so often do.
It’s the opposite of black-and-white thinking.
I disliked the It Gets Better project as it rolled out in Canada, because they spent a whole lot of money on commercials at prime time to patronizingly pat queer kids on the head and tell them – with absolutely nothing to back it up in the commercial – that it gets better, and nothing at all on anything that would actually help the queer kids where they were. As it manifested in Canada, it was yet another half-assed anti-bullying campaign that’s long on platitude and short on action.
Admittedly, that might not be what it was elsewhere, but that was my experience with it. I genuinely needed something that a well-executed campaign of that sort could’ve offered at the time, and this thing came out and everyone was all, “SO INSPIRATIONAL!!1!” about it and it just left me cold.
Being technically allowed under the law to own property and being able to own property are two different things. I think Becky is referring to the latter.
Joyce needs to get a sweet cybernetic hand. Then she won’t have to worry about spraining her wrist anymore.
Seems a big overkill to replace the whole appendage, but Gaige from Borderlands got a sweet robot arm when she just cut her hand, so I guess it works.
Who wouldn’t want to replace their puny flesh appendage with a Death Laser? Seems like the logical thing to do.
I wouldn’t! I am awfully absent-minded, and have an itchy nose.
Some kind of armoured gauntlet would do as well, surely. And ladies always look classy as hell decked out in plate armour, to boot. It’s like formal dress, except for ass-kicking.
Female paladins in functional partial plate (no cleavage boob-plates) over chainmail…… I’m sorry I got lost in my ideal version of a high medieval fantasy world where were we?
In high fantasy, there’s no such thing as functional armor. It’s either incredibly skimpy or ludicrously large.
Sorry, I don’t make the rules. I just point them out.
Also, damnit. I should have said stupendously, not incredibly.
See, I’m more of a fan of the whole biker outfit style Sal has, except with armored plating and gauntlets.
I blame Japanese Transforming Heroes for that.
Someone give her info about the Speedwagon’s Foundation, it might come in handy
Nah, I’m pretty sure they just help Joestars.
Unless thats really an actual real Foundation as well which would be a super awesome coincidence while simultaneously making me look like an idiot for assuming JoJo references.
Oh wait, yeah, cybernetic hands, duh. Forgot what this particular post thread was about. Xp
Probably a better source than evil organizations that might be Nazis who make people into super cyborgs regardless.
I mean, it clearly worked out for Clinton. Can’t see how it would go wrong for her.
Had hoped someone would mention Clinton! My mind went straight there also.
Was actually wondering if anyone else would get the reference or not. High five.
Don’t you think Carla could build her something? Possibly involving pie.
Lesbians owning property?! Times have changed!
Pfft, as if anyone in modern America can own any type of housing property.
well, we can’t, no.
Hahahahaha I was just talking about feeling like a failure at 24 with my roommate today and whaddya know me paying rent out the ass every month is part of that hahahahaha.
(someone kill me, please)
You are absolutely not a failure. I’m the only millennial in my family to own a home, and that’s only because I got “lucky,” which in this case means that my dad had enough life insurance money left to me so I could buy a house.
The Baby Boomers kind of destroyed the housing market for us. Don’t ever think you’re a failure because of that.
At least you have your own place. I’m still with my folks – and I’m older than you.
Why is living with parents considered failure? I’m curious.
Because capitalism. No seriously. American capitalism has long espoused the idea of hardworking individuals being able to become homeowners through hard honest labor. And for a time that myth had some truth due to the US being a frontier nation. And then prosperity gospel got invented and reinforced that idea. Not owning your own home has, as a result become a mark of shame that means you are either lazy, incompetent, or a sinner that God looks down upon disapprovingly. Because in America Democracy means capitalism, capitalism means money, and money means God.
…
We’re a really screwed up nation as a result.
Amen.
I live in a living room. You’re very much not a failure.
That’s why they call it a “living room”, right?
I spent a loooooot of time living in living rooms.
(I no longer live in a living room.)
But do you live in America?
I live with three roommates. In a three bedroom two bathroom rental. I sleep in the living room on the floor. Surprisingly better for my back than my old mattress. This is while currently working a part time job and a full time job after finally moving out of my folks home at the age of 28, because my three best friends moved back into the area and we’re living together now. Plus, because I make coffee for everyone in the morning and wash the dishes at night (first to rise last to fall am I) I get control of the TV and the fireplace. So, win in my book.
I don’t know if it helps, but I think the economic system is to blame. We are forced to compete in every area of life and there are winners and losers by design. So even if everybody does his best, works hard, studies all the time, there will be losers among them. While you certainly can try your best to succeed, don’t blame yourself if that doesn’t work out. “Every man is the architect of his own fortune” is toxic because there is simply too much in life you can’t control by yourself, and still it makes people blame themselves for everything that does not work out.
I’m 30 and live with my folks. I mean I’m between jobs and pay rent and also provide tech support to the people I live with and did so even before being between jobs.
I’m pretty sure economic issues and overblown social perceptions that classify only 1 to maybe 5% of people as successes and most of the rest as failures are the biggest things to blame.
That said, as long as I make sure to mention at least two of those things and bring up how much more economical it is and how much my parents need me helping out with the bills and stuff, the average person doesn’t harass me over it at least. A lot of people are really surprisingly understanding about it.
I thought I already posted this, but aw, you guys. Thanks. I get shitty like we all do sometimes and I appreciate the kind words.
Umm… home ownership rates in the united states remain comparable on average to the rest of the developed world. Sorry.
Honestly curious: These rates that you’re referencing, do they refer to the amount of people renting, the amount of *individual* people owning homes, or the amount of homes that are lived in by the owners? Because (in my area, at least) it seems like houses are being snatched up by a seemingly small amount of people, given a quick paint job, then put up on the rental market, all within a month or two of being put up for sale… :/
(No, I haven’t been trying to find a house for the past year and a half, nooooooooo…. *curses people out under her breath*)
The percentage of residential units lived in by their owner, including houses, apartments, condos, and the like. It’s around 64%
There is, of course, more to it than that. That number varies considerably when race is taken into account. Among whites, the percentage goes up to over seventy percent, with the expected decrease among non-whites. Different regions also have different percentages. I’m pretty sure the number goes down in general for large cities. Hell, I live about an hour north of Portland, Oregon, where the housing market makes it difficult for an individual to make rent much less actually buy a home. And those horrifically elevated prices are steadily creeping north with portlanders who can’t afford to live in Portland.
But, as with all things, it’s a complicated issue with wide variation depending on where you live.
Further example, a family I know of living primarily on disability can’t afford to make rent in an area like Portland or Yankee Vancouver, but they bring in enough to afford house payments in some of the sparser areas of Washington state.
But if they can’t have houses, where do they bring the U-Haul? Hey-oh!
When I was a kid, no woman could get credit and owning property was difficult for a single woman. Easier for a widow, since being without a man wasn’t her fault. Though the Flintstones were considered a documentary when I was a child.
It’s crazy and depressing to think that it’s been that recent.
THERE’S GONNA BE A BECK-ONING
grab a joyce, that’s your second/your lieutenant, when there’s beckoning to be beckoned
After the Beck-oning comes Re-Joyce-ing.
Look them in the eye.
Punch no higher.
Chaperone’s a good idea, what with those newsvans parked outside Leslie’s house. A meeting between Becky and Robin promises to be an interesting one!
It may be old news, but hope the vans don’t pester the former abductees of a gun-toting religious fanatic.
It’s not like the whole thing isn’t first page material waiting to happen.
Joyce being there might help.
Will it look more or less like Leslie’s procuring for Robin?
like seventeen things were resolved and opened all at once wow
Dumbing of Age is the hydra of comics.
“Hail Willis.”
“Hail Willis!”
lol yes it’s amazing
i’m kind of wondering if these might be the plot threads that need quick resolution (quick given buffers size anyway) depending upon the election outcome.
Joyce needs to learn to roundhouse kick if she’s going to risk breaking another wrist.
Well, there is this.
It’s kinda weird how Leslie is using Becky???
Well, she did offer couch space first, no strings attached, before remembering that the couch is presently occupied. It’s not like Leslie is going to kick Becky to the curb after she helps oust Robin, who happens to need additional object lessons/examples in how her personal job security is largely based on legislation that screws over actual people.
Bit late on the bandwagon there fella, that issue resolved itself within 3 panels
What happened to class tho?
Field trip!
And news opportunity. 😛
This will be a great newspaper article Dorothy can write to make herself feel better about the bad grade.
I hope so; not only will Robin be forced to confront Becky’s humanity, Roz will be forced to confront how much of a negative impact her attempts to ruin her sister’s political career have had on Leslie’s private life!
OMG yes. All of them go. All of them! Maybe a bad idea for real people, I dunno, but I wanna see that story.
Leslie is like Miss Frizzle but gay
So like Miss Frizzle
Hmm. There go any worries I had about this going south.
Joyce can punch someone out with her left hand too? She’s terrifying o.O
Just wait until she gets mad enough to turn on the jet pack
AMBIDEXTROUS PUNCHING
She’s a southpaw, of course. The only reason she didn’t cut it loose against Toe Dad is because the right uppercut she was using to set him up for the left cross deathblow did the job.
See, now you’re actually making me want to believe that she is actually a southpaw, just because left handed characters are so rare in stuff.
I mean…it seems like a really dumb thing to want “representation” for, since honestly lots of other groups have longer lists of reasons why representation would help make things better for their groups overall, but more lefthanded characters would still be nice to see.
Left handed characters: Sal, Dorothy, Joe, Ruth.
Dorothy wants to be president.
A lot of our past presidents have been left-handed.
DOROTHY WILL BE PRESIDENT.
Is Joyce a bad enough dude to
rescuepunch thepresidentcongresswoman?(yes)
Nice
Not punch, darling. Fist.
I’ll only head over to the hall of spackle if we can go out for a mint after.
That “Joyce punches Robin into a pile of cops” ending is looking more and more likely.
Bad Leslie, it looked like you wanted to throw Becky to the wolf without warning
Without thinking.
What I’m loving here is that in the middle of the hell Leslie’s going through, her class is already learning the importance of having each other’s backs and a lot of that is thanks to seeds she’s sown.
I’ve just liked how Leslie’s day has gone from grumble grumble horrible day to being excited to do what she can for Becky. Even if its led into another potentially bad idea of trying to chase Robin out of her house.
It’s the Joystice League!
‘Your’ Becky, Joyce?
She called dibs. Leslie will have to get her own.
So now Leslie is gonna have to clone her then.
2 Beckys? I’m ok with it, double the fun! Though Dina would probably be very confused.
And very happy.
Becky has Dina’s favorite face, but two Becky faces would be a lot of FACES. Sounds overwhelming! STOP THE FACES
“I call this one ‘Punchsworth’ and this one ‘Fistmanda'”
“the other L word better not be laxatives.”
Lumberjack. What? she is wearing plaid.
“She’s a lumberjack and she’s okay …”
Waaaaaaaaait.
Does this mean Leslie has a Holtzmann figurine or something?
(Please, don’t turn this into an argument about GB2016, YOU KNOW WHY I’M MENTIONING HER)
you know who leslie goes as for halloween
The Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man?
Holtzmann was great.
Thats basically the only thing I’m willing to say about GB2016 though.
That 4th panel shows why I’ve grown to love DoA’s Joyce so much. That passion to protect those she cares about, even though she’s coming in with a handicap. I also love how we’ve seen her change/grow over these strips. She still makes mistakes (like her approach to Sarah & Jacob), but she has the biggest heart & isn’t afraid to show it when it counts.
WHOOMP THERE IT IS
Anyway, fine, here’s my actual take [reposted again from earlier Patreon comments, still applicable] on today’s comic:
[1.]
“DO I?!
“Wait, do I?”
Good girl, Becky. You’re learning. And to Joyce good girl x100 for being willing standing up for your friend’s well-being using both the rational and, ah, hands-on arguments necessary.
[2.]
Although I think Walky’s bringing up a valid point, too, because with the media cameras crawling around Leslie’s home in this moment? Joyce, if her family’s watching, stands to lose quite a lot herself right now taking consequences to their furthest potentiality.
Regarding your (2), Minder, I honestly am not sure how Hank and Carol might react to Joyce’s involvement in throwing Robin out after she committed a home invasion. Carol, especially, has too many layered prejudices to make easy assumptions about how she’d react to Robin in any way.
I’ve spoken in detail about what I think may be at stake in a worst-case situation in depth here (hopefully that link works), but for a short answer I think it’s predictable at least how Carol is going to react, and what she’ll assume, at the news of a Congresswoman being spotted in a compromising picture with a woman and later hiding adamantly from her own campaign in that woman’s home. That woman is a lesbian and Carol is liable to turn on Robin for that “transgression” the same way Mary did.
Hank is the one I’m very uncertain about. I believe in the end he will be supportive of Becky and Joyce, despite the prejudice of his wife and his community. But I do think his support may cost him both of those things at the breaking point, and if he is suddenly made into an enemy of every single person in his own community, then he may not be able to be relied on for his support simply because he wouldn’t be in a place anymore where he can give it. That’s assuming a lot, sure, but Carol is not going to take her daughter acting so violently and brazenly or being seen at a lesbian woman’s home well at all.
Thank you Joyce, for at trying to nip that in the bud and for acting like the ally human shield!
You better know some kicks in you hurt that other wrist too, Joyce.
*in case
“I may have one busted wrist but I’ve still got another” is the most badass thing said by any character in this entire comic. JOYCE IS A MOTHERFUCKIN BOSS.
Totally. Joyce is all out of bubblegum.
“Guess this is gonna be another one of those bad decision days,” “Yeah, the Old Testament God,” “No, I’m crazy. He’s just an incredible asshole,” “And I’m not campus security” and “Well, if you’re so proud of it, I can make you more” have all gotta be up in the running. That is definitely one of them though, and easily Joyce’s most badass line.
“I’m gonna be a fuckin’ scientist” belongs up there, imho
Ooooh, yes!
Indeed. Someone get her a BAMF wallet for Xmas.
But do not tell her what the acronym means until a week later in order to properly freak her out.
Why would “beautiful angel [with] mighty fists” freak out Joyce?
ooooohh, I like this interpretation.
And then tell her it was what Joseph and Mary sold the Three Wise Men’s gifts to purchase for Jesus’ gift.
*plays Walter Egan’s “Magnet & Steel” on the hacked Muzak*
couldn’t she have done this after class
the first five minutes of any class are not, technically, class, they are getting ready to class minutes and are therefore Up For Grabs
I meant “not in front of everyone”
Joyce, for god’s sake, learn to throw a punch so you stop breaking wrists when you punch people!
Seriously, I’m sure Sal, Ruth, Billie, AG, or Sarah would be happy to help.
Well, she is wearing a brace, so she should be able to through a punch safely now. And you would think with older brothers, she would have learned how to punch by now. Is there a Krav Maga club at the uni she could join?
She probably shouldn’t be punching anybody with a sprained wrist, brace or not. I do like the idea of her in Krav Maga. And tbh, her brothers and Joss most likely never made her as pissed as Toedad. Plus they’re bigger and older and can get in trouble for hurting her, so probably not a good idea.
Class is cancelled after all because the teacher has lost interest. And somehow not her job yet?
I think actually she’s teaching class right now. Leslie has unorthodox teaching methods.
it’s not beyond the pale for what’s been depicted so far. Most of the classes shown, she starts a discussion, then things go off the rails (because, unsurprisingly, unstructured participation is unstructured, and most of these characters have the impulse-control level of the Muppet Show). If it wasn’t this, it’d be Joe saying something wacky or something.
super teen extraordinaire
freakazoid freakazoid
runs around in his underwear
freakazoid freakazoid
just keep watching and you will see
freakazoid freakazoid
unless something betters on tv
freakazoid freakazoid
his brains over loaded his hands are chocolate coated.
perfect case for Sigmund Freud
freakazoid freakazoid
check out dexter douglas. nerd computer ace. was surfing on the internet then got sucked in cyber space.
he turned into the freakazoid. he’s strong and super quick. he drives the villians crazy cause he’s a lunatic.
Someone re-do it with Becky-Zoid please
I am all in favor of Joyce and Becky going over to Leslie’s place to talk to (and possibly punch) Robin.
“So class is canceled, I guess?”
“Quiet, off panel tertiary character, plot’s afoot!”
oh….. why can’t i ever be the protag?
http://www.shortpacked.com/index.php?id=2142
Bad Leslie. Bad. No maybes about it, this was a line crossed. I understand you’re in a SHITTY situation right now*, and that there is net gain to be made from Becky meeting Robin**, but preying on Becky’s situation (and no, this has nothing to do with homophobia, whoever the asshole that said that’s why we were upset with Leslie) is NOT OKAY.
In other news, Joyce continues to be a rock star.
*: Leslie’s basically riding an adrenaline high from seeing Becky, remember how shaky she was when she first walked into class?
**: This is a day or two after Joyce tore into Robin about her anti-queer policies, right? Maybe seeing it right in her face actually will do something if Becky or Robin have the wherewithal to say “Motherfucker, you are looking yourself in the face.”
Yeah, not really one of Leslie’s best moments even if it follows up some of her more effective moments. The fact that she’s at least able to look at her heat of the moment ideas and realize that they aren’t OKAY does put her in a better mindspace than a lot of the other adults in the comic, but well its definitely a good thing Joyce is there to have Becky’s back.
That said, I’m really hoping that Leslie’s idea here was more of a spur of the moment thing after a sudden realization that her couch already has an occupant in the form of a home invading congresswoman who she forgot about in her excitement than something planned out that way in advance.
I much prefer the idea of her being someone who truly wants to help but doesn’t always think things through that well instead of just that she’s trying to manipulate Becky into dealing with her Robin problem.
That’s how it feels to me. Leslie was caught up in her own excitement and how badly she wants Robin the heck off her couch. Her body language in the panels after Joyce called her out even makes me think she might call it off. She definitely seems to be doing some serious thinking
Certainly wasn’t planned in advance, since she had no idea she’d be meeting Becky today. Almost certainly came to her in the panel of thought yesterday, right before she suggested it.
Funny, I always figured Leslie for more of a Back to the Future kind of collector.
AAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!! LOOK AT MY BABY STEPPING UP TO THE PLATE! I’m sad that she’s hardening (Someone get Joyce some kind of victory, stat.), but LOOK AT HER! SHE IS FIRE PERSONIFIED! Sometimes she shines; a light in the smothering dark. Sometimes she simply burns the rotting undergrowth to make way for new life.
At this rate Joyce is going to run out of wrists
That’s because there are a lot of people who need punching.
‘oops maybe you’re right and i’m overstepping’ LESLIE BEST RESPONSE TO BEING CALLED OUT <3 <3 <3 so proud of momma gay *sniffles*
i can’t believe that robin’s been in leslie’s home for all of two days and already she lives there. like a fruit loops encrusted raccoon that won’t leave leslie’s couch. she’s burrowed herself a den in there. it has wifi and electricity
Yeah, the “She lives in my house” line was disheartening. Though in yesterday’s strip is “annoying houseguest”.
Leslie, are you downplaying the nastiness here to get Becky to come? Not cool.
“my becky” JOYCE
The 300 usd backer pledge, dose that include everything from the previous pledge levels? (IE do I get all the books,magnets, kissy image, non-kissy, image, single image, PDFs of all books(Don’t really see the need for the last one but whatevs))
Can I do what I want with the doodles and personal image(s), or is putting them online/sharing not allowed? (Obviously monetizing them in any way shape and form isn’t)
Also dose Kickstarter “instantly” take the money or is it taken shortly before “release”? (24 hours after pledge or sometime around December)
First time I’m doing something like this, sorry if I sound stupid. 😛
$300 gets you a signed book 6, all the magnets, the PDF of Book 6 if you ask for it, and the make-out digital commission.
You can share the image however you want!
Kickstarter doesn’t charge you until the funding period is over.
I’m assuming you mean signed book 6 and a PFD of 6. (Right?)
Assuming my former statement is correct, any chance of adding books 1,2,3,4,5 to a new pledge? (Say for 390 usd + shipping (Based on the DOA store price))
I want all in one go you see. 😛
The problem is, once I get more than four or so books in a package (give or take individual book thickness) I gotta split the shipment up into two packages, and then double the postage. Which is relatively easy for domestic, as that’s just another $7, but for international folks, that’s another $35. (Or roughly the price of two books.) That’s part of why there’s no international shipping option for the BUY ALL BOOKS pledge level this year, because if someone’s books go missing, I’m out another $70 to reship the books.
(I bring this up because your IP is not American.)
Which is why, in this circumstance, I recommend just buying the first five books from the online store. It will cost you the same amount in postage, since, again, it *can’t* be sent all in one go, because of the number of books. It’s double postage either way.
Again, this reminds me of DRAGON AGE: THE MASKED EMPIRE. Empress Celene is incapable of seeing the elves as people no matter how much her elven lover wants her to be. The only way to stop this, Leslie, is to let the Duchess assassinate Robin at the Grand Ball.
Wait, I may have my plans mixed up.
these fists are made for punchin’
and that’s just what they’ll do
one of these days, these fists are gonna punch all over you
My eyes are open wide!
I’m racing to her side!
There’s nothing that I won’t do for heeer!
But this is not a dream…
My mind repeats the scene…
I can’t forget it and it’s tortuuuuure!
That was before…
But not anymore!
I’ve left it behiiiiind!
As much as I lost…
Once I’m across I’ll fiiiiiiiind!
I’ve found the strength to grow so much mooooore….
A whisper to a rooooaaar…
Nooo more cryyyyying…
It’s time for me to sooooaaar!
Feel like I’m finally unbroken…
Feel like I’m back from the deeeaaad!
My strength back and confidence growing…
Out of my way, cause I’m armed, and…
REEEAAADDY!
Armed and ready! (Reaaaaadyyy!)
Armerd and ready! (I’m reaaaadyyy!)
Armed and ready! (Ready! Ready!)
Armed and ready!
I love how Becky is all “Do I want to join you in lesbian shenanigans? DO I???? …wait, do I?”
Badass Joyce is badass. Even Dorothy is temporary moved out of her funk!
Comic Reactions:
This arc is pure unmitigated joy. Period.
Panel 1: Oh Leslie, no… But I get it, people don’t make the best decisions when they feel trapped and Leslie feels hella trapped, but still, protect the baby gays, don’t throw them to the wolves and expect them to save the world for you.
And oh man, Becky here. Like, first of all I love that she takes the time to second-guess herself on whether she actually wants to meet her congresscritter instead of just going along with it without question. And her raw excited enthusiasm in those widened eyes.
But also, I love what this must feel like for her. Like, Becky has almost as little power as you can possibly get in society and is still fighting for the privilege of having a reliable legal residence and rebuilding the bare scraps of her life. So for a cool older lesbian to take her seriously, offer her all sorts of aid, validate the coming out experiences she’s had that have mostly been teased by all her straight friends, and even offer to connect her one-on-one with the people who literally make the laws.
Like, this is a fairy tale for her, which is why she’s so initially game and excited, because it’s someone seeing her as someone important enough to be asked.
Panel 2: Oh Joyce… Oh you beautiful wonderful perfect Joyce, I love you so so much.
Like, I’m willing to bet money that Becky doesn’t know all that much about her sitting congressperson, but Joyce has met her face to face. She’s seen how callous and dismissive she can be and specifically how callous and dismissive she was to her when she was describing Becky’s life experiences.
So, she’s scared for Becky, that Robin will hurt her and make her feel like crap by saying the awful things she did to Joyce. And she’s willing to stand up against an authority figure over that, which we know is still a very difficult task for her given how she was raised.
And this is also what needs to be called out here. Leslie may not be thinking of it this way, but this idea her desperation is making sound like a winner is, at this point, awful. Because it’s likely to be painful, but she’s not giving Becky full information to give informed consent and she’s pushing for a desire outcome instead of following Becky’s wants and needs. And yeah, Leslie may be mostly seeing Robin as the stalker who refuses to leave her house and who she still wishes she could save, but Joyce sees her more clearly as someone who openly dismisses the base humanity of folks like Becky.
So yeah, Joyce is pure awesomesauce.
And I love Dorothy in front of her, seeing solidarity networks in play that she hasn’t necessarily fully grasped before. (Certainly not as well as Roz did.) Never mind her grades, this is what she needs to be learning.
It really is the most important lesson she could be learning right now to be a better politician in the future.
This class is very educational. And to think Leslie entered it stammering about the lesson plan.
Panel 3: Yes! This is perfect of Leslie!
Like, it’s easy to get swept up in something that seems like a good idea at first, to not fully consider the ramifications for others because you’re getting too focused on one particular problem and solution. Especially when you’re stressed and desperate and robbed of any form of half-way normal morning routine.
Human brains are not very good at problem solving under stress conditions.
But despite that, she hears Joyce, genuinely considers her words, and re-reflects on her actions and finds them wanting in the way we all spotted. And that willingness to completely abandon this idea of her when the ramifications fully hit her and apologize sincerely means a lot and shows Leslie’s character in the best possible way.
Especially since we’ve seen how her decision-making can be clouded by Robin and she can make bad decisions under that influence such as bringing someone dangerous and toxic into a classroom to argue against the personhood of folks in the class. So it’s really nice to see her even under all her stress reconsider her decision making and make the right choice.
And oh Becky, I love this, because it’s such a beautiful sign of Becky’s strong religious faith. Like, she fully bought so much of the culture she was raised in, but especially bought that God is love and would never hate her for who she was and so the Church must be wrong in what it says God is. And so here, she fully takes on board the idea of ministry to “hostile” outsiders that racist Christian organizations use to make “talking condescendingly to non-white people” feel like a dangerous marginalized activity, but subverts it to something actually positive.
Going to actual hostile people with power and witnessing her humanity so that people can see that lesbians like her are human and deserve rights. It’s turning that broken hypocritical framing and making it real and important.
And for her to not only think that but to draw strength from that awful mess and make something beautiful out of it, turn it into the activism of being out in the full Harvey Milk sense of what that meant. Going to the hostile groups who did not think they knew a gay person and making sure they did. That everyone saw that gay people were in their towns, their families, their communities. That we couldn’t be ignored and shut out. It’s what has worked so amazingly to advance queer rights.
And to see Becky find her own path to that direct activism. To draw strength and full consent to an activity that is guaranteed to put her at emotional and potentially physical risk? It’s genuinely beautiful.
It also makes me feel a lot better about this arc, because this is full genuine consent without pressure and that’s what was needed to make this whole zany plot of Leslie’s ok.
Panel 4: Seriously though, is there any amount of praise that would be too much for what Joyce is doing here. Like, we already knew she’ll fight the whole damn world to protect her Becky, but this earnest, emphatic, angry response just hammers that home again. Just as Becky followed her into her lion’s den and protected her from being alone in a toxic dangerous environment, so to will she into Becky’s dangerous mission offering that same amount of protection and support.
And it’s what Becky needs. Like, yeah, she’s hella strong, but we’ve seen that she’s not bullet-proof and it’s nasty dismissive comments about her sexuality that sting the most for her (hell, they’ve been the things that have made her snap partially at Joyce before). So witnessing to Robin is brave but very potentially toxic and harmful and for Joyce to recognize that and refuse to let it swamp Becky is all sorts of amazing.
Panel 5: <3 Joyce. Just all the hearts. And oh Walky, why you gotta be you sometimes, but whatever, because that Joyce line is so perfect. And it's true. She's hurt her wrist on one vile homophobe and she'll punch out another if that's what it takes to protect Becky in the same way as Becky as protected her.
And it's what makes their relationship special, because both will go so many miles for the other to help them and protect them and make sure they are not alone in scary bad situations.
But yeah, looping briefly back to Walky's nonsense. Joyce's response is also perfect because it highlights that it's the wrong damn question. Joyce is not gay. Joyce is not in danger of having her emotions hit on that deeply ugly personal level to anywhere near the degree as Becky is. She's got the privilege and power here and she's wielding that in defense.
Joyce isn't fragile and worthless. Isn't actually at risk in this encounter of anything other than getting really really pissed off and maybe decking a sitting US congressperson, which I'm sure is something that'll get you all sorts of exciting jail time. And that Walky is asking his question reveals that he really fundamentally doesn't get what is actually at risk here.
And that's well, something we've seen time and time again from Walky. He doesn't get queer oppression and thus trips a lot on his heterosexual privilege in moments like this. I don't know who will get him to notice and correct this eventually, but I'm sure one day it will happen, cause right now, moments like this are just head-shaking moments.
I’m probably showing my own white male cishet privilege here? But I’m 50/50 on Walky’s question being nonsense.
On the one hand Joyce is fierceness and power and strength and every damn thing that is good and right. But on the other… Walky was there when Joyce’s questions and anger just bounced right off Robin’s thick bloody skull.
In a sane world there’s no reason for any backup that validates her, because, c’mon, just NO. But this is the ugly broken world where even the highest and best of leaders get questioned and undermined merely for being female. (I’m in NZ. I watched Helen Clark go through that shit, and nine years after she left office — and the country — she still catches it.)
I dunno if Walky’s capable of this framing (and your criticisms are a pretty sharp indication that he probably isn’t), but an offer of “Hey, if you want anyone there for your back…” would’ve had me bloody cheering for him learning.
Which we don’t have. But… can’t help but notice Joe in that panel, and he’s gotta be there for the same reason Dorothy’s in panel 2.
(of course, a useful rule-of-thumb for is-white-male-cishet-privilege-present is: being in a position to ask questions like that. this world, I tellya… sigh.)
When I read the comic strip, I thought that was Sal speaking, not Walky. Which would somehow make more sense in my mind because Sal is the more grownup character. But of course there are tags.
(Well that and the fact that Sal is not in the class and the position in class exactly fits Walky from the last strip. Nevermind. I seem to forget too fast with one strip a day.)
TBF, I think Joyce could mature about the same rate, and Sal’d still be protective of her. Sal’s a protective friend and Joyce acts like a baby sister to her.
(tl;dr warning I’m sorry for making such a long comment on an already-long comment I am so sorry)
I would hesitantly disagree on Walky’s point being nonsense even if I’m not guessing at all his reasoning matches mine–the question he asks is indeed not remotely applicable to Joyce the way it is for Becky and 100% for the reasons you described. Joyce, as a straight person, has the protection of not sharing the very steep vulnerabilities Becky faces that would hit at levels of personhood and validation. We readers can be reasonably certain she’s not going to jail for whatever happens because narrative but there is no room to doubt here that Joyce wouldn’t DO it, or do anything for Becky’s sake. And that is beautiful.
And…that’s also alarming for very specific reasons that I’ve mentioned in my own comments but phrased poorly, and it calls back the echo of what Jocelyn warned during their visit. And that is that Joyce does stand to risk something here, not just for herself but Becky as well, if she (justly) blows her top and gives Robin exactly what Robin deserves in the case this shit goes sour and Joyce escalates.
I do not know if my concerns will actually play narrative factor or not, and they may well not. But there are reporters at Leslie’s home right now, I think. They’re reporting Congresswoman DeSanto is hiding there after having been caught in a compromising position with a woman that happens to be a lesbian professor at Joyce’s university.
Joyce’s parents may or may not be watching the news. But I can imagine they might be. I could picture Joyce’s mother watching raptly, even, and using this story to argue why Joyce doesn’t belong at that school.
If Joyce herself is spotted going into that same lesbian professor’s house where the so-called affair is happening, on camera, with Becky, or if an incident happens during the meeting with Robin that becomes newsworthy later–that won’t take much get back to Joyce’s parents. And for Joyce’s mother in particular that kind of news would be have to be a point of some sort. Carol will either drive up to the campus herself with/out Hank’s agreement, to attempt (and fail–and she will fail) to drag Joyce back home ‘where she belongs.’ Or they will divorce.
That is an extreme and worst-case scenario, obviously. I do not think it is more than blind conjecture. But I cannot imagine either it’s not possible happening. And that’s a possible loss for both Joyce and for Becky, through Joyce’s material support keeping Becky afloat and worse, the crushing guilt of being ‘responsible’ for someone else getting hurt on your account.
Robin Joyce will fight for on Becky’s half and win, but Robin’s a stranger and Joyce’s outrage in this case is nothing but validating and supportive. If Carol gets involved, that’s a personal wound for Becky, for one. But furthermore while Joyce would cut Carol off if necessary to side with Becky (she WILL do so if it comes to that), Joyce won’t be able to hide the shock and panic and the toll it takes on her from Becky. Becky already has shown herself to be vulnerable to a guilt compulsion for ‘ruining’ everything merely by existing and having Joyce inconvenienced by her support of Becky, even as that support is so desperately craved and needed. If Becky thinks she has ruined Joyce’s life or is responsible for something as huge as a shocking split in/from Joyce’s family I am not sure it will do negligible harm.
If nothing else I’m wary of Leslie doing this without considering that with the coverage they are potentially being exposed to for a second time they really don’t need.
That’s actually a fair concern. I doubt that’s what Walky is talking about, but I would definitely give him mad props if it was.
And heck, I’m not even down on the kid. Tripping on privilege doesn’t mean you’re an asshole or doing harm, it just means messing up on something because the full context of it is alien by societal design (because the narratives of marginalized groups are rarely shown without stereotyping).
Like, it’s just oh Walky, no, that’s not why Joyce is worried about Becky rather than Walky, what the fuck.
Oh, I’m definitely with you thinking Walky probably wasn’t quipping with Joyce and Becky’s marginal power balances in mind. Or any of the risks of Joyce getting exposure from this that I mentioned above. It’d be nice if he was since he theoretically does have a good idea of what her family’s like by now, but…it’s Walky.
If I had to charitably guess I’d assume the first thought in his brain seeing Joyce worried about Becky’s safety was that Robin must probably have some secret army of Congressional ninjas or something at her disposal in Leslie’s apartment and that’s why it’s like, risky business to go.
Of course that’s no less a privileged view from a kid that likes to avoid reality for hyperbolic imaginings and brush-offs all the time…but, hey. It’s Walky!
Panel 6: Oh man, I have so many feels here.
Like, on the one, I love Becky’s raw enthusiasm now with that informed consent. She’s excited for the chance to minister her humanity and maybe make a difference. And she knows she has her best friend getting her back if stuff gets ugly.
On another, I can make the bitter observation that modern capitalism has shut an entire generation out of even the dream of owning a house. Like, so often we’re just fighting for the dream of an apartment we don’t have to share with housemates. The idea of owning property, of having a place that doesn’t depend on one’s landlord’s whims? It’s a fairy tale like a living wage. And that’s a shitty dark truth of capitalism and why it’s current incarnation in America cannot be crushed fast enough. (Seriously though, we desperately need a guaranteed living wage in this country, because it would solve so many fucking problems. Like, being trapped under shitty bosses? Not being able to do what you love? Taking any capitalist abuse you can because of the fear of being laid off and being rendered homeless and starving because of that? It would be revolutionary how much it would improve everything.)
But also, that line… like Becky is the master of wacky-ing it up and only revealing the dark edges of hurt in her jokes. And here, she’s touching on a very real and very fresh trauma. Like, she just got done picking through the memory-haunted house she will never be allowed to occupy or own again, after losing her roof, her family, her sense of safety, her future, her church, her everything.
She’s making the best of it. Dear Bob in Himmel, she’s making the best of it, but she is rebuilding from scratch, fighting and struggling to merely equal the current reality of her peers. And that hits me home because I’ve been there. Oh I have been there, losing everything because of my identities and having to build it up from the ground.
And it stings and hurts to know all you lost that you wouldn’t have if you had ended up straight or cis or so on. To know that you might not ever fully gain it back owing to the discrimination against you. Like, Becky may or may not be fully aware of it, but she’s probably at least passively aware of the fact that in the majority of the state she lives in she can be evicted or fired simply for being gay. That her employment options are less because of her sexuality. That her future will be harder simply because of the oppression that comes with the identity.
Her statement about learning that lesbians can own property is real and strong and heart-breaking, because she really does need to see the lesson that someone like her can succeed and thrive in a world that has so frequently shown her the ugliest side of homophobia. That has nearly killed her and everyone she loves over it. She needs to see someone who is gay being an accomplished professional, in a position of authority, owning a house, because all she’s been shown before this was a life where she was one friend and one well-timed superhero away from living under a bridge somewhere slowly starving, heart-broken, alone, and scared.
And it’s why happy endings are so important for queer folks, why out successful people are so important. Because we so often only see the worst, so it’s important to see all the people who just love and marry, who have powerful jobs and make amazing art and change, and who thrive instead of die in gutters. Who can carve some space that is all our own.
I told the story of the kid back in my museum job looking at me in awe because I was an out trans woman like her in a role as teacher, as if it wasn’t a big deal even though it sadly was. But to her eyes, she saw for the first time a future for her that wasn’t just pain. Where she’d just live and thrive and be okay.
Cause sometimes, when you don’t ever have that, you desperately need that. To feel and internalize that you actually are a full person deserving of your humanity. To truly believe that you matter and aren’t just the broken refuse tossed onto the trash-heap to rot.
That you too can reach a point where you thrive and just live and that can just be the norm for everyone like you.
It’s what I fight my fool head off for. Because that right there is everything and I want Becky to see that, to internalize that, to believe that.
As per usual, we’ll spoken ma’am. Keep doing what you do, coz what you do is awesome.
I still cannot get over how little USAians are paid. I mean, I know Canada’s $10-15 (depends on the province) an hour isn’t SUPER GREAT but like….$7.25 as a minimum wage for a full time job you’re supposed to LIVE ON? That’s pathetic.
Pathetic doesn’t even begin to describe it, seriously I make almost DOUBLE the minimum wage here (working at Costco, one of the few companies that actually tries to pay a fair wage) and I have to live with my parents to survive with 40 bucks of discretionary income a month to fend off the ever growing void of despair and helplessness in the face of a society that wants to bend me over backwards and shove it’s corrupt corporation bullshit into every orifice it can while it gets to work of tearing open a few extra ones.
And it’ll never change. Because the government and the corrupt corporations that benefit from this pathetic situation are rapidly becoming essentially the same entity. I will live an entire, hopefully short, life of suffering and being exploited and there’s nothing that can be done about it. Elections are rigged with gerrymandering so the government doesn’t need to care about me or people like me, the nation is run by a corporation even more directly than usual for the next 4 years, and by the time those years are done most of the laws protecting people like me will have been torn to shreds
That scenario is what the USA’s minimum wage is, only worse because the wages are even lower.
Oh and lets not forget that full time work is basically a myth now because full time workers need to get benefits and god forbid that happen, even my job is still only part time for similar reasons.
And then let’s add back in a bit of the topic of today’s comic in that this is just the scenario for a straigh cis white male, I can’t even imagine how crappy life must be for people like me who don’t sit in that position of privilege in states where discrimination is more intense (living on the East coast there’s not as much homophobia, comparatively). If my life is a hopeless slow and miserable death, theirs must be hell.
Sorry to vent my internal maelstrom of negative emotion that rages 24/7 there, but this damn topic makes it really hard to keep bottling it up once I start typing
*hugs* Yeah, it’s all pretty fucked and upsetting and none of us deserve the awful system we’ve got.
Yeah, I mean most people have it pretty bad, but even thinking about the fact that, as a vaguely “approved of” person who blends well enough to avoid a lot of the extra troubles that can come from being open about stuff or distinctly visibly different than what is the ‘ideal’, there are people who have even less ability to fight for or even politely request any sort of chance to make it in this crazy world is pretty brutal to think about.
Like yeah, some few people of just about any group find some way to “make it”, but it usually seems like people use that as an excuse to claim that other people aren’t being treated like dirt. I’m a lot less marginalized than a lot of people, even if that’s probably partially due to walking on eggshells around potentially dangerous topics, but even for me its harder than it should be to even get a chance to prove your own merits. The thought of anyone else having it even harder to do so…actually manages to piss me off even with being a very mild mannered and emotionally detached person usually.
$15.75 is the minimum wage for an adult in NZ if anyones interested
Punchy Joyce is Best Joyce.
I love you so much right now, Joyce <3 also, who else hopes this will turn into one hell of a wakeup call for Roz AND Robin?
Yes, Go Joyce!
I have a feeling that more people are coming along. Might be a good idea, too.
Well a good idea to an idea that feels like could her very messy very fast.
My first reaction: Oh my god Joyce is gonna end up punching Robin in the face and it will be glorious!!!
Second reaction: Ehh, guess that’s one way to get a creepy stalker out of your house.
Third reaction: So uh, anyone else think Joyce should invest in some power gauntlets? Cause her poor knuckles will get all cut up if she doesn’t get some kind of hand protection.
Ohhh, she could ask Carla to make her some fancy pants gloves or a full on iron man suite. (Iron Joyce??)
I know it’s kind of old fashioned terminology but just for the sake of the pun, why not Iron Maiden?
See, personally I love the fact that if you go by the periodic table of elements, Iron-Man would be Fe-Man anyways.
I just like weird puns though.
Nah, she doesn’t need gauntlets. She needs to learn to throw a freaking punch to avoid breaking her wrist. And I dunno, gloves or something to protect her knuckles.
Gauntlets might help add more blunt force trauma to the punches though? And look totally sweet?
I mean she should learn how to punch so she doesn’t keep injuring herself doing so, but sweet gauntlets are their own reward?
True enough!
I really enjoy that, while I got that Leslie would second-guess her problematic idea, and that Becky would egg her on to go for it anyway, I totally missed that Joyce would immediately see the problem, and volunteer as human shield.
Summary: Leslie stupidly forgot, in her excitement, to prioritize Becky’s wellbeing; Joyce reminds her like a BOSS.
BOO-YAH.
Which is the failure in Walky’s question. Who do you think you are, kid, your sister?
I’ve been following this webcomic for a year now and this comic made me want to post this so bad:
Plot Twist: Joyce is actually Saitama’s holy disciple
Bit more of the All-Might style from My Hero Academia with what I’m seeing.
Mainly cause she’s willing to sacrifice her bones over it, while Saitama just sacrifices other people’s bones when he punches stuff.
I totally forgot about Izuku! That’s so true *both thumbs up*
She may not have superpowers in this version of the universe, but it is still in Joyce’s nature to be a heroine. Even though, evidently, Walky has a hard time taking it seriously.
Converts make the best zealots.
So, by this logic, Sarah should come along to protect Joyce. With her baseball bat.
Seriously, though, Joyce is being awesome here. “I broke one wrist, but I’ve got another!” Hard core! And her outrage and protectiveness over Robin not thinking Becky is people. This country needs more of that.
Oh, yeah, a black teenager beating a sitting congress person with a bat. That would go well.
If by ‘well’ you mean ‘oh, look who’s going to jail forever and ever and ever’.
Bitter sarcasm aside, Sarah protecting Joyce is my jam! And yesssssss, Joyce is a badass. <3
Pffft, you can’t send Old Testament God to prison.
Somehow I think a judge would fail to be swayed, sadly.
People dicussing things and coming to fairly reasonable conclusions? What madness is this?
The heated and action-filled levels in Hated Character Defender™ with the most players are definitely the most fun because that’s when you start to see the real unique variety of absurd and creative arguments that spawn and twist around themselves trying to get points, when the comments section is all riled up. The turn-based combat system of arguing is fun even if you have to put in more work yourself to score solid points off others’ messy blame-game aim if they’re shooting off-target and you can prove it with evidence. Of course you have to be careful of opponents or dialogue partners getting points themselves that are valid, and would cost you the petty satisfaction of telling someone they’re wrong about fictional characters over the Internet.
Aaand always sooner or later the non-Satanhood of characters that have made poor decisions / left bad impressions / done something to impact poor innocent baby character [x] is reestablished. The action can die down again and the spawns get less aggressive until it settles and at that point you have to go back to grinding EXP on stuff like observation and rational discssion.
I was refering to the comic, not the comment section 😉
I LOSE POINTS NOW
Wait, you can get points for this?
Panel five is all sorts of awesome bad ass but my big worry is that Joyce gets in over head and, filled with righteous indignation, finds herself n a situation she can’t handle
I’ve mentioned previously that I think Joyce has some anger issues and, unless harnessed properly, can lead you into situations where you probably shouldn’t be
As an extreme example you got this from Berkley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4apXY-9GuY
The guy should not have done this and she was lucky that it looked like he hit her in the forehead but I’d hate to see Joyce in this very situation
On the other hand theres all sorts of wish fulfillment going on in this strip so its unlikely we’d see Joyce getting decked
So, like an AG, Mini!Sal like situation?
Oh dear.
Well AG and Sal both look like they’ve had some training to go along with the anger but I’m guessing Joyce probably hasn’t
I guess I just don’t like seeing girls getting dealt to, unless its like specific training or combat sports or such like
AG has for sure, but I doubt Sal has, actually. She doesn’t strike me as someone who went through any formal training – she just got into a LOT of fights.
Ok fair call, so anger + experience whereas Joyce simply has anger but no training and no experience
Yeah, pretty much, which is why she keeps breaking bones when she tries to punch shit. Girl needs someone to teach her how. Experience or training, whichever.
Though, tbh, experience is just another kind of training. Street fighting doesn’t get enough respect as a fighting style, but it’s probably the one with the most practical applications.
“Street fighting” is all well and good but what it comes down, to me anyway, is if know what training the person I have to fight beforehand knows how will that make me feel
For instance if I know someone does wing chun or something I’m not going to be that bothered but if that person was a boxer (pro or amateur) then that will give me much greater pause for effect
Side note: I don’t start fights or go looking for fights because that’s bullying, if you want to fight then step into the ring with someone that also wants to fight
Street fighting is interesting because, while there isn’t really much in the way of formal training, it is, again, actually very practical – it involves more common weapons, multiple opponents, improvising, and no rules. And arguably experience is as good a teacher as training is.
Putting it this way, street fighting is the practical training to formal martial arts theory training. Sort of. That’s not a perfect comparison because plenty of formal martial arts are plenty applicable in daily life, and I’m sure there are some methods of picking up street fighting training, even if its just tips from friends, and I am going to shut my fist hole now because I am mangling the point I was trying to make. The point was that having training does not actually guarantee being better than an experienced street fighter (as I’d seen people suggest when AG wanted to fight Sal – no, guys, AG having had martial arts lessons does not actually guarantee she’ll be a better fighter than Sal, especially since Sal’s been fighting longer than she has and, by her own admission, got into a ton of fights).
Frankly, I’d not want to get in fights with someone either up to sparring level in a formal martial art or anybody who’d had plenty of street fighting experience. Basically I’d not fuck with either AG or Sal lightly. Both have different kinds of fighting but both could probably fuck my day up.
And re: your side note, agreed. Take that shit to a ring or a mat or a fighting club or a tournament or some shit. My only fighting experience is what I got in sparring. Took like 7 years worth of classes and I think I sparred for around 5 or 6ish of them? Very fun, but also very enlightening.
Yeah true that, first time I did some rolling in BJJ was…an experience, wrestling and BJJ does look (to some people) sort of erotic (is that the right word?) but when the lady 10 years my senior and 40kgs lighter had my head between her legs in a triangle choke while also throwing in a neck crank (I mean why not ratchet up the fun times) I can say with absolute certainty that any thoughts of anything even slightly erotic were the last things going through my mind
I guess to me an organised sport like boxing offers better and more opportunities for sparring (mostly) and that any trained fighter can also do the dirty stuff if need be
However I’d still put money on AG to take Sal 🙂
Well, looks and feelings are two different things.
Eh, potentially, but sparring is still controlled and relatively safe. It also tends to get your brain thinking in a certain way for a fight, whereas street fighting tends to involve variables you’re not prepared for – improvising, flexibility, more common weapons, multiple opponents, and well – no rules. When you’re used to fighting in those circumstances, it can give you a leg up for folks who don’t. They might be willing to do dirty stuff, but someone who’s always ready to fight dirty knows all the tricks and guards for that.
Basically I’d hesitate to put money on any two evenly experienced folks* in different fighting styles, because it’s a toss up on who will win. Martial arts isn’t a rock paper scissors game with easily predictable rules for winners.
* Assuming AG and Sal are roughly equally experienced. It’s very possible they’re not, since Amber only started getting trained/in fights in the past five years. We’re not sure how old Sal was when she began getting in fights or how old she was when she began trying to rein it in.
I’m more worried that she’s going into this looking for an excuse to punch Robin in the face by tagging along. Deserved or not that may land her in serious trouble in legal and terms of media scrutiny and standing at the university.
Yeah true, good call. I think Joyce has some anger issues and this might just be the excuse shes looking for…sort of reminds me a little of someone else in this cast
It’s absurd that in this day and age a bisexual like me isn’t allowed to own property. It’s 2017 and discrimination like this shouldn’t be allowed to exist.
What’s that? The reason I can’t own property is actually because I don’t have money? Oh…well shit.
FWIW, I’m pretty sure that Ross’s malfunction was that he didn’t think it was seemly or holy for women to owe property; Becky’s sexuality was just aggravating the trespass in his view.
Who the fuck is Ross?
Of course, the discrimination plays into why you don’t have money.
Not that simple.
Is panel 3 from dorothy’s perspective? The distance between Leslie and Becky seems bigger and I don’t think Becky is moving back and forth during this strip (or is she?).
Joyce is just cranky because she cannot use her schlicking hand.
How dare you, Joyce would never use her right hand for that. She uses her LEFT hand, you pervert.
“call every lesbian you know, we’re smoking this bongo out!”
today’s strip kind of reminded me of this tumblr post: http://flaggermousse.tumblr.com/post/158372441950/jemthecrystalgem-neptunes-salty-butthole
How have I not run across this before? It’s awesome! Thanks for sharing.
Please please please let Joyce punch Robin in her stupid face.
wow whatta ya know, all of ya’ll who were going off about how leslie is so evil and manipulative or whatever were completely wrong as usual and of course she asked becky up front about it and then had second thoughts when she realized that could be bad for becky wow what a shock.
im sorry but geeze, yesterday was such a cute strip and then the comments get filled up with people accusing leslie of using becky like a tool
And don’t forget Walky being a misogynistic arse because he’s concerned that someone with a plaster cast on might end up in a fight. (sigh)
No one has called Walky either misogynistic or an arse. Really, I’d categorize the comments at the level of eyerolling or a deep sigh about behavior from someone who doesn’t recognize their own privilege. They view his behavior as being out of ignorance, not malice, and aren’t writing him off as a bad person. Just someone who’s still got some learning to do. But by all means, please continue to characterize legitimate critique as character assassination.
Also, Joyce doesn’t have a plaster cast. She has a wrist brace.
Everyone was freaking out because the plan was a potentially bad idea and Leslie seemed not to have thought it through at all. This proves that she is of course not going to do this by springing it on Becky without asking her first (which I did not really ever doubt was going to happen, just that it might not be enough of a warning anyway), and Leslie stops and reconsiders when Joyce points out the danger and that’s good on Leslie.
People were scared, some people were harshly critical of Leslie, but she’s proving herself here not wanting to be harmfully manipulative and I think most commenters are relieved and agreeing she’s good to have done that. If anything I’d say Leslie’s flaw is letting her imagination run away with her in terms of what she imagines in Robin overriding thoughts about risk assessment. Which doesn’t make her evil in any way, but I do personally think that even with Joyce there for protection, Becky hyped and willing to go, Leslie maybe should think a bit more about what she’s getting these 18-year-olds into. It’s a character flaw but not one that’s going stop her from recognizing when the situation is out of control and/or doing real harm to protect her charges
Frankly, I’m even less happier, because now it’s two students caught in Leslie’s self-destruct radius, and quite possibly get, as mentioned up thread, get Joyce in trouble with the law and college when she decks someone who she can’t get away with doing so.
Frankly, bringing Joyce in just increases number of failure modes and the possible damage to Becky by a whole power, and just because she can’t drop that idiotic crush of hers.
Honestly, it’s still a bad plan and she still shouldn’t be dragging them into her hot mess.
Becky still isn’t at the level of informed consent, though Joyce might be. Her explanation here, while technically correct, left out the full awfulness of Robin that makes this such a horrible idea.
Mitigated slightly by bringing Joyce along, though made slightly worse by it now being one of her own students.
Walky: But who will protect you?
Joyce: I.may have busted Jillian, but I’ve still got Holtzmann.
Leslie: Okay, class, who else has named paired anatomical feaures after a Ghostbuster?
(Yeah, messed my italics up, sorry. Dang tablet.)
Joe: “Actually…”
Leslie: “THANK YOU, SOMEONE ELSE?”
Touché!
That feeling when I’m awake enough to come up with a joke, yet not awake enough for the perfect second punchline.
Dorothy “ok, this is nice and all, but can we start the goddarn lesson now ?”
I honestly think she learns a lot more than she intended to. She seemed set to write a thesis on her phone or whatever she was doing in the beginning of the class, but this turned out to be a much better lesson in “sweet lesbian facts” than Leslie could have planned
It is a demonstration of what Dorothy would have had to deal with if she had become an RA, and what she was increasingly feeling unequipped for in her interaction with Billie and Joyce the other day.
Book 1 Joyce: I trust god to protect me
Book 7 Joyce: MY FIST WILL PROTECT MY FRIENDS
This will end in fucking disaster.
Don’t know how, but it will.
I’m not sure, I always have the impression that Willis alternate between “good” and “bad” moments, and this is a good one.
However, when the story will go back to Dorothy…
Oh very much, but it’ll be an epic ride getting there.
Thank you for the Freakazoid reference in the hover text. 🙂
Thank you for wasting our time, said the rest of the class.
This is damned important for them to see if they want to actually learn something you can’t get from textbooks.
If only she invited the entire class to her home, instead of the lesbian who doesn’t even pay tuition for this school.
I mean, a Ms. Frizzle-style field trip would be as awesome as you’re describing and more, but it’s a little disheartening that you felt the need to point out Becky doesn’t pay tuition when she’s almost literally just got the clothes on her back, and it’s important for the rest of the class to be watching this for reasons that have nothing to do with calling Robin out.
OK Joyce is a wonderful badass and this is totally the Magic Of Friendship right here. Unfortunately this is another one of those excessively numerous problems that can’t be solved by punching. Leslie is making one impulsive mistake after another. Her best moment is in frame 3 where she stops to consider.
Hope we get to see discussion by the class after teacher and JoyceBecky are gone. Probably start with “What just happened here?”
OMG, field trip time!
I feel like we’re watching a Jurassic Park: Lost World moment in real time
Leslie: Don’t worry. I’m not making the same mistakes again.
Everyone Else: No, you’re making all new ones.
One of my favorite lines/exchanges from that movie. 🙂
I love how Walky is suddenly protective. I predict an entire entourage escorting Becky and Joyce to Leslie’s.
I was really hoping we were all wrong about Leslie using Becky on Robin though.
That’s probably the way to get Robin out, too. A class of students, all asking questions. I wonder if inviting the media in (maybe one or two who Leslie knows, from their public body of work, are sympathetic) would help or aggravate the situation.
Ok it’ll get her out but what will stop her coming back?
I dunno what they are looking to happen here. Like, I get Leslie’s motivations, weird as they are, but what on earth is Becky hoping will happen when she meets Robin? And Joyce? Like, what does she mean about ‘protecting’ her? Does she think Robin is gonna start a fight? Is she gonna put her hands over her ears? I don’t get it.
As far as I can tell, Becky is hoping that seeing her in the flesh will induce Robin to have a Damascene Conversion of sorts.
Becky hopes Robin can be convinced to change her position on LGBT+ rights.
Joyce is worried Robin will say nasty, dehumanizing, dismissive garbage like she did in class, and probably intends to shut that shit down if it happens before it can get to Becky. With punches, if that’s what it takes, but she’ll probably start with angrily interrupting her.
I’m not sure Becky’s even thinking that far. Becky’s thinking the awesomesauce lesbian teacher wants her to, so she’ll do what she can.
Sounds about right for Joyce, who’s actually met Robin.
Joyce — you are awesome.
Joyce stop making me ship you and Becky, I ALREADY KNOW ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN
I FRIENDship them. Besties forever! (Of course there’s always room in my heart for Dorothy and Sal, and Sarah, and even Walky)
You got two fists? Then you got a fighting chance.
Can somebody get JOYCE some resources on places to learn to punch without spraining your wrist.
I think it is more knowing what to punch. From how he was portrayed, Ross’s head is probably made of almost solid bone so attempting to hit him in the head is kind of like punching a rock.
Sal, AG, Billie, Ruth, Sarah, seriously Joyce ANYBODY.
LOVE Becky’s line in panel 3. See becky is not an idiot and she is not a weak person, and she’s been raised in a culture that greatly values trying to reach and redeem people at great personal risk and sacrifice. Whether this is true to the extent they say it is or not is a moot point (I would argue that it is always significant to try to live true to your religious beliefs even in a non-missionary capacity), the point is that Becky has been training her entire life for this moment. And she’s seen this happen, too, with Joyce. She knows people can be redeemed, and she’s also lived in the closet and can approach this situation with the compassion necessary for good missionary work. And she gets to do it for someone super important, too.
I had the privilege of lobbying for some of my state-level elected officials a couple months ago. Really good experience. Some people in this comments section might be willing to turn their pitchforks towards this or that lesbian, but neither Becky nor Leslie want to give up on Robin and I personally think that is beautiful.
And we all gotta keep in mind that this is being done with the purpose of establishing lesbian community for Becky. That’s not something that’s ever been accomplished easily for homeless lesbian kids. Spending an afternoon with someone with poor boundaries and minimal self-awareness is pretty low on the list of terrible things I’ve been through in that regard. And I’d /still/ kill for someone like Leslie willing to bring me in on something personal and dramatic like that.
I still maintain you’re severely understating Robin. She is not some teenager with bad boundaries and no self-awareness. She’s an adult who deserves to be held accountable for her shit and has not yet and is wilfully ignoring people trying to tell her where’s she’s fucked up. You can’t plead ignorance when you plug your ears and start yelling ‘Lalalalala’ when people try to tell you.
I think this could go well with Becky and Leslie. I also think it could go badly – because, again, not everyone can be reached or is worth trying to reach because they will be toxic and destructive to you. And that can be a good lesson – it’s one I hope someone learns, be it Leslie, Becky, Joyce, Roz, someone.
Congresswoman DeSanto is an elected state official. She would not be very good at her job if she couldn’t tune out three people.
Absolutely hold her accountable to the things she’s done, but that doesn’t mean exile her for the crime of having lived her entire life in the closet.
Sorry, federal official.
It is very much Robin’s job NOT to tune out people talking to her about issues, especially since one of them was a constituent. Disagree, sure, ignore, no. Especially not if she’s going to plead ignorance saying she doesn’t know about these issues – at this point, it is not ‘I didn’t know’. It’s ‘I didn’t want to know’. And that is not a good politician trait.
Fine – how about we hold her accountable for voting to eliminate LGBT+ rights and being a boundary violating fuckface?
Oh, I didn’t say she was good at her job. She absolutely shouldn’t be in political office at all. She’s just not as bad as she might be if her entire worldview was one that could be altered by one conversation with one person.
We don’t disagree on whether she should be held accountable, we disagree on what that entails, and for me that doesn’t mean hating her forever and leaving her to rot when she’s obviously in a vulnerable position, receptive to further conversation, and absolutely devoid of any malicious motive.
I’m not saying that doing that would be Bad, I’m saying that it’s not the best available option IMO and I’m glad that it’s not the one the cast is opting for.
And if Leslie willing to do that work, that’s her choice. It’s not something she should be dragging her students into. Or her student and a homeless lesbian friend.
said student and homeless lesbian seem pretty into the idea
Joyce isn’t. She’s worried and going to protect Becky.
Becky’s all excited, but that’s mostly the high from meeting Leslie and she’s the one who knows least about what she’s getting into.
Again, it has not been one conversation with one person. It’s been multiple conversations with multiple people. At that point, if she’s ignoring it, she’s being wilfully ignorant and can therefore no longer use that as an excuse to be a fucking asshole.
First of all, she’s not receptive to further conversation. She’s been ignoring everybody trying to have that conversation and dismissing them. Secondly, malice means jack shit when you’re hurting people – she’s been told she is, how she is, and why it’s harmful, and she does it anyways. At that point, malice means nothing. Not caring whether you hurt people or not is not better than hurting them on purpose except in that it might be easier to get them to stop. Third, acting like hating her forever is unreasonable is bullshit when, again, her actions have the potential to harm thousands of people.
Forgive me for saying so, but it sounds VERY MUCH like you’re not actually in favour of holding her accountable. You sound like you’re in favour of not calling her on what she’s done and Leslie hand holding her in the hopes that if she’s just nice enough Robin will change her mind and stop being a terrible person. And that sounds a lot like enabling her and I seriously hope Leslie doesn’t end up doing that more than she has.
I mean, I would argue that she hasn’t exactly been fleeing accountability or anything. She was just outed in a very public and humiliating fashion and now she’s literally afraid to leave Leslie’s house and probably her entire network of political alliances (her advisors, her party, etc) are going to turn their back on her pretty brutally, she won’t get the progressive vote either because her policies are terrible, so like, she 100% has literally been publicly humiliated and has lost her job over all of the things you’re mad at her for. I don’t think Becky and Leslie can or should try to top that.
Again, if we’re going to go with the witnessing comparison, you’re a really bad missionary if you give up on people after one conversation, especially someone like Robin. We don’t know anything about why Robin does what she does and frankly if this opportunity passed me by without me making any effort to figure it out and get in there, I don’t think I’d forgive myself.
No, no she did not. She lost her job for being bi, not for being a terrible person or a terrible politician. And so, yes, she’s ducked accountability.
First of all, I’m not working with any missionary comparison, because missionaries are ALSO often terrible people you really shouldn’t be trying to emulate (though Becky wouldn’t have known anything about the dark side of missionaries, so I’m not irked with her). Leslie’s had three or four conversations about this with her, and Roz has been trying to talk to her about this, likely for years. This is not ‘one conversation’.
I’d argue it really doesn’t matter why she thinks it’s okay to treat LGBT+ folks like dirt, except as it pertains to how best to stop her. And again, Leslie sitting on her ass enabling her and trying to nice her way into Robin’s ‘people’ book is not actually holding her accountable. Telling her ‘No, that’s not okay, that’s a really awful thing to do for reasons X, Y, and Z’ every time she feels capable of doing so is holding her accountable, and that seems to be what you’re arguing against. Trying to educate her on top of that is extra shit Leslie is doing.
Sometimes it’s not worth it to try and help educate people. It’s not always worth it. Sometimes that road leads to toxic situations and lot more scars than you’d have had if you’d known when to cut your losses and bail. This Robin arc could lead either to redemption or to a lesson in when to give it up. But you (general you, not you in particular, Pearl) won’t get either by coddling Robin and pretending she hasn’t acted like a piece of shit this entire time.
If Robin’s actually been outed, she’s shown no sign of actually realizing it. If she’s humiliated and afraid, she’s hiding it very well. She has in fact done every thing she can deny any accountability or even admit anything’s wrong.
Or even admit there’s anything to be outed for. She can’t be “outed” because she’s not queer – in her own mind. Doesn’t even make sense.
She definitely needs to be booted out of Leslie’s apartment soonest. She needs to be made to observe boundaries. I don’t really know a good way to accomplish that, but if it can happen, I’m cautiously in favor of Leslie staying in contact – not to coddle or even educate her, but basically on the grounds that letting her realize she’s actually queer is the best and probably the only way to get her to change.
No way in hell any of that is on Becky though. Keep her out of this.
Oh also, if Becky’s had any direct experience with missionaries, it’s been the dark awful kind, though she may not realize it. That’s her church in a nutshell.
She lost her job for courting a bunch of bigots and shills and relying on them for her political power, and turning her back on the people who would stand by her even after being outed. The way politics works is if some people get mad at you you can rely on the people who won’t, but probably literally nobody isn’t mad at her.
Which is exactly what she deserves, in terms of career. She made those decisions and as an adult can live with the consequences.
And, yeah, of course she hasn’t shown signs of realising it. She’s in denial about her sexuality, and also about a lot of things, religious repression leads makes it hard for people to understand things about their lives and themselves. Hence the importance of Joyce and Becky to this operation.
Again, though, the reason they’re mad at her is because she’s bi. They are not mad at her for her bullshit policies. She deserves to be held accountable for those too, and no, losing the bigot vote is not enough to cut it imo. The lesson she’ll probably take away from that is ‘Being bi sucks, I should definitely hide it better, and also diversify my base – I dunno, folks hate *insert marginalized group Robin is definitely not part of* maybe I can use that?’ not ‘Huh, wow, my policies are bullshit and maybe I shouldn’t run on promising to take away gay folks rights or deporting Latino people or taking away reproductive rights.’
Also, I don’t think Robin is very religious. She’s definitely in denial, but I don’t think hers is religious in nature. Roz and Riley don’t seem very religious.
Just for the record, Robin’s never shown any signs of being especially religious. None of her anti-gay rhetoric has been particularly religious. I believe the family is nominally Catholic, but unlike with Joyce, it’s barely come up.
Beyond that, she hasn’t lost her job, though she might. A competent candidate with a good spin team might well be able to survive this. Plenty of Republicans have survived worse scandals.
Luckily, Robin isn’t competent and her team is barely capable of keeping her on script.
I believe Word of Willis is that Amber, the DeSantos, and Marcie are Catholic. I believe that’s it though. I thought Billie was too, but I seem to have been mistaken.
If the lesson she’ll take from this situation if it’s allowed to progress is that she should hide who she is and do more bigoted things, that is more reason to expedite her admission into a supportive and progressive community.
Wanting her out of your life so you can wash your hands and call it a day is not something I’d condemn on a personal basis, but it’s not like, the Upstanding Progressive thing to do. It’s a healing and political dead end. You can’t just exile people on a permanent basis for not hopping on board with everything you have to say immediately.
I’m pretty sure Robin isn’t going to learn “I need to hide being bi better”. Robin may learn “I’m really not queer and can’t possibly be queer so I don’t understand why they’re upset with me”.
“Hiding” is not really a Robin thing. Except hiding from herself. And from clues.
Pearl: yes, you can. Hand-holding bigots a guiding then out of their ignorance is a great thing to do, but nobody is obligated to do it, much less the very people targeted by their bigotry like Leslie and Becky. They end up needing to do that enough with people that they NEED to interact with on a regular basis.
That shit is above and beyond what is required of them to be good progressives. Now, if YOU want to go wade into the comment section on breitbart and try to win some hearts and minds, knock yourself out. You’ll find that even arguing for someone ELSE’S humanity can be frustrating and distressing.
Now, if a person has friends or loved ones that are expressing bigoted viewpoints, THAT is when I’d say you’re obligated to go beyond calling that shit out, and make a concerted effort to bring them around. The more privilege you have, the wider that circle gets.
If Leslie gave up on trying to “save” Robin, it absolutely would not reflect badly on her as a person OR as a progressive.
The situation doesn’t need to progress for her to decide her problem is that people think she’s bi. And, again, if that ‘supportive and progressive community’ never says boo about her bullshit policies or treating people badly, then they’re not supportive and progressive. They’re enablers. And that is the last thing Robin needs.
You don’t seem to be understanding – people who do not want to change are not going to and there is no amount of trying to nice your way into their ‘human’ book is going to make them. You seem to think everyone is reachable and that is simply not true. Knowing when to fold is not just ‘not a bad thing but not a good one’. It is a necessary skill for healthy living and pretending otherwise sets people up for bad situations and abuse. Robin might be reachable, but if it turns out she’s not, Leslie cutting her off is not some ‘not bad but not good thing’. It is very positive for Leslie and it stops wasting time and political resources that can be spent on people who are reachable.
Other people offering to help when they’re ready are welcome to – nobody gets to decide unilaterally who is or isn’t welcome in a group. That doesn’t make anybody obligated to put up with it individually when they’ve decided it’s not a winnable battle and putting that towards situations that are (especially when that winnable situation is someone actually interested in changing).
And if you think that makes someone a ‘healing and political dead end’ or some Bad Progressive, then that’s really really disgusting and I hope you use better judgement when talking to people cutting out bigoted assholes from their lives because seriously what the fuck?
Another connotation to the “witnessing” line is that Becky’s absolutely looking at a long-term community with Robin (because that is what you do with people you have converted to your religion, speaking from experience). The angle Becky and Leslie are looking at this from isn’t “please don’t hurt us anymore Big Powerful Scary Congresswoman, do what we want so we can go back to ignoring you” it’s “please listen to what we have to say and be a full-fledged member of our community, we genuinely like you and want to be your (girl)friend since we all share a vulnerable position” and that is a huge and vital difference.
I think Amazigirl might in some ways be a better choice than Joyce, mostly because she’s better at following the letter of the law when punching people, that and Robin sort of already likes her. If Joyce punches Robin it will likely be because of something not actually illegal. If Amazigirl punches Robin it will be officially because Leslie made it clear that Robin is a burgular who refuses to leave.
I think we should give out props to the TRUE hero of the current scene.
Joe, for not going all porn–fantasy-crazed at the meeting of two lesbians.
((Yes, this is sarcasm. … er, silliness? … something like that?))
The sad part is that that’s a major character growth moment of Joe’s worthy of celebrating.
We can probably infer Joyce’s opinion on the ol’ Nazi Punching. It happens to be the correct one.
I feel like there’s a lot of other students not getting a terribly great deal of education out of this course.
I think they are. Even in the first 5 minutes or so of today’s class is a pretty good direct personal example of the experience of coming out.
I’m assuming, even if we don’t see much of it, she’s not going to just run off with Becky & Joyce right away, but will take this trip after class (or even later if Joyce has another class.)
Last class was a complete disaster, mind you, but other than that, I don’t see why you’d say that.
On one hand: This is adorable and a honestly fairly accurate representation of what happens when a baby gay meets an adult gay.
On the other hand: Doesn’t Leslie have a class(es?) to teach?
Where’d you guys all get the impression that class has actually even started?
Five strips later, at the Great Hall of Spackle:
“Wow, this was really fun. We should probably go take care of that Robin thing now, though.”
Why are they at the Great Hall of Spackle?
Well, Leslie’s had a dry spell, so she’s very she-lacking.