Joe is the path to the Dark Side. Joe leads to Danny, Danny leads to Amber, Amber leads to suffering because you ran out of Pokeballs and there’s a Charmander.
That doesn’t work because then there is no Jacob and there are two Dannys. So, if Joe becomes the Danny which would make Jacob become the Joe, then that would make Danny the Jacob by default.
I’m hoping that either A) Joe grows from this. I don’t know how, but I hope he does. Getting his ego beat up could do him some good, or B) he spends this entire arc being humiliated. Or both. We could use the comedy.
I’m betting on a little bit of an existential crisis, as he realizes he’s not the hottest guy at the college (let alone the earth) and as a result that he is not, as he apparently believes, God’s gift to all women (and some men).
Being the Danny might do you some good, Joe. Well, as long as it doesn’t involve getting into a relationship with one of the alternate personalities of a troubled young woman.
Well, he’s not a stranger, so that’s not surprising. She’s also not alone, which is when she really freaks out.
But I think it’s a bit of both – mostly Joyce playing matchmaker with a side of following up on the texting connection she’s been making with Joe. We’ll see if he’s willing to act the same way in real life and in public.
Joyce was not in the room. That was last night, and it’s possible that Becky told or texted her offscreen later, or that Sarah told her when she came back to the room, but it’s also possible that Becky wanted to tell her in person and hasn’t had a chance to catch up with her yet.
Ryan never even tried to convince Joyce to have sex with him, because he was not interested in getting her to consent. Ryan presented himself as a safe haven not interested in sin right up until he tried to force Joyce into the bathroom. Joyce did punch him and even marked him, but Ryan took that as an invitation to beat her up before raping her.
Joe made it clear fairly early on that he wanted into Joyce’s pants, and has shown no evidence of being willing to have sex without consent. Punching made Joe back off for keeps, and despite the fact that he would be in his rights to fight back since thinking about sex isn’t illegal Joe just took the punches.
Joyce and Joe seem to have an odd relationship. It’s ‘When Harry met Sally and Sally didn’t beat the you-know-what out of him and Harry wondered what the heck he got himself into.’
For posterity’s sake, I’m happy (though not surprised) to report that Willis was very gracious and resent my misdelivered DoA books right away. And the books are awesome, so if you don’t have them yet, buy them! 🙂
OK, this is it Joe, the moment of truth. Either you swallow your pride and your discomfort and sit down and talk to the Bible girl you have decided NOT to do, who has hit you in the faaace and who is a magnet for FEEEELS in you for reasons you don’t fully understand…
I’m in a relatively good mood today (given the political situation, I’ve had to recalibrate what counts as a good day for me). The shitty head of school who tried to cover up a sexual assault of a trans student and treated the survivor like shit and even contributed to a suicide attempt by the survivor just got his ass chewed out by said student.
The kid was telling me about it later, but apparently he called the head of school out on all the shit the head of school has failed to do and done to make his recovery harder and refused to let him weasel out of it or accept his terrible advice that “forgiveness is the only means to recovery”.
I was genuinely proud of the kid, cause I know from personal experience how terrifying it can be to stand up to an authority figure who failed you in that sort of circumstance. And for a kid who’s only a freshman? Yeah, hella impressive.
So, I’m feeling down to analyze… anything. Oh bob damn it, Joe.
Panel 1: Okay, yes, I have many disagreements with Joe and his outlook. I view it as frequently toxic and more invested in being viewed as consensual than in being consensual. But hey, I’ve also enjoyed his interactions with Joyce and where he shows his better face with her.
But, outside of that… and especially when he’s trying to “bro” with Jacob?
Yeah, he’s kinda still really awful and we see some of that here. Like, really bro, you really haven’t put two and two together and realized that Danny is hurting and has decided to not reach out to you because you’ve been toxic every time he’s tried and yelled at him for it?
And oh, yes, even when Danny does his damndest to not dump his shit on you and process it all on his own like you fucking told him too, you still shit on him for being a “bummer”, because he’s not willing to play-act a Danny who has never existed for you to “bro” off of.
And it’s why I’m very glad that Danny is breaking away from this “friendship” because Joe cannot be bothered to give a fuck about Danny on a real level and actually be there for him. And yeah, I know he “doesn’t like emotions” (which no, I’m not ever going to forget tends to be a sexist trait among guys who think emotions are “girly”), but c’mon. Danny’s going out of his way not to get any emotions on Joe and Joe is still whining about it.
Like, Danny physically can’t win with Joe no matter what he does. And Joe’s weird fixation on wanting a prop to bolster his worst traits feels really ugly when you realize that Danny’s shitty parents also openly dismiss Danny and only sees his value in living the exact life they want him to live.
That kid is bad ass! I’m glad to hear he’s recognized that shitty admin for the steaming piss dumpster he is and is refusing to put up with his garbage.
Especially since it sounds like the head of school was in full weasel mode and the kid just called him out on it on every turn and refused to stay silent anymore or pretend that he’s not pissed off at how his life was played with so casually simply because he had the “inconvenience” of getting assaulted in a way that “looked bad” on the head of school (cause he actively sabotaged the work area observation that should have prevented it and fucked up the follow-up because he just wanted “the problem” to go away).
And I’ve offered my full support to the kid and his parents and let them know about what I’ve been trying to do behind the scenes to support him and call out this shit.
Also, found out our head of school lied to the family about things having been done that were not only not done but actively prevented from occurring by the head of school when teachers tried to independently do them. May have “accidentally” corrected that misinformation.
how is that supervisor of yours not fired yet? from what I can garner it’s not only yourself and the student who are aware of his abysmal handling of this situation and you have receipts. I really hope this guy is out of a job soon, he cannot take responsibility for the safety of students in his care :/
I honestly have no clue. I know the kid and his family and several of the kids’ friends’ families are all formerly complaining to the levels above the head of school, so hopefully that’ll be the last nail.
But yeah, it is… interesting to observe how hard it is to remove this rich white asshole from a position of power, while my trans friends get shitcanned for the flimsiest of reasons.
That kid is amazing. Full kudos to him! I’m proud of him too and hope this asshole head of school gets canned sooner rather than later.
And yeah, Danny and Joe’s friendship is crumbling and they both need to do some serious growing if this is going to work out. Danny’s growth being the sense of a spine, and Joe’s in not being a shitty friend due to his allergy about serious emotional problems.
Tell your student he’s my fucking hero, and an inspiration. The world needs more people who will call assholes out on their shit, and doing it from a position of disenfranchisement to a position of authority is a whole new level of awesome.
Yeah, Joe’s treatment of Danny is awful. However, I think his description of it to Jacob is less than honest, because it’s again filtered through his stupid bro!filter.
JoeSpeak: “Danny is a bit of a bummer.”
Translation: “There is this colossal mess of a relationship that may be over, and there was something of an abusive father, and he is mad at me, and I don’t really know how to help him and if I touch it there will be feels and I’m not willing to invest what it takes to reach him emotionally.”
Which doesn’t give Joe a lot of credit as a friend either, but it IS understandable given HIS parents and his and Danny’s shared history.
That has to be the bravest student I’ve ever heard of. And this head admin prick has to be one of the slimiest dirtbag assholes I’ve ever heard of. Seriously, respect for the student. I never would have stood up to my head of school and I had the privilege of being born a white cis-male in America. I just, I can barely even imagine the kind of courage and strength that kid has.
That kid is the bestest; good on him! Jesus, that head is an asshole. >:[
Forgiveness… bah. If one feels ready to forgive and move on, great; but that can only come after reparations have been made. Me, I am not one for forgiveness, personally. If someone does something that hurts you, you have a right to be angry about it! And insisting that they just “forgive and forget” puts the onus for making things right again on the victim, and if they cannot forgive what was done to them, then they become the bad person!
No, I am fully in favour of the way the Norse used to do it: Make reparations first, and then we’ll talk about whether or not I am willing to overlook what you did. But pretend it never happened? Forget it; you have shown yourself capable of doing whatever-it-was, and I am not going to forget that. I would be stupid to.
Hope that head gets everything that’s coming to him. Jerk.
Sorry, I’m really not sure why you think Joe should magically know all the details and that Danny is in need of support. Since, as you said, Danny’s breaking away, there’s no reason he’d have told Joe anything at all, and without actual facts, what’s there for Joe to know except Danny’s being a bit of a bummer this week?
Joe is someone who wants to know the parameters of the situation so he can act appropriately. Given no parameters/requests, he takes no action. Danny’s having a bad week, he can tell that much. Who knows why? Not Joe! Because no one told him why or enlisted his help in any way at all.
You cannot shut someone else out from offering help and support and then turn around and shit on them for not offering support and help. I mean, you can, obviously it’s a thing that is possible, but it’s kind of a jerk move.
And, in this arena, Danny hasn’t been much of a friend to Joe, either – Joe has previously indicated his willingness to support if only Danny will tell him that’s what’s required, and Danny’s response boiled down to ‘you know what, actually no, I’m not going to be genuinely honest and open with you for even a second, but I am going to shit on you for refusing to do something you have explicitly offered to do”.
They are bad friends for each other. It is not entirely and exclusively on Joe, and I’m betting it never has been. Joyce, who is open and honest just because that’s who she is, is a much better friend for Joe. Witness how he had no problems giving her good support and being an outlet while they were texting! She told him what was actually wrong and thus he had enough information to respond appropriately! And he DID respond appropriately, depiste the feeeeeelings overload, even though Joyce at the time was NOT his friend.
Well, Danny isn’t blaming Joe and is in fact trying to follow the requests Joe has made of him regarding emotions and the processing of emotional pain. Trying to minimize time spent in room so his “downness” doesn’t negatively affect Joe and stuff.
He’s in pain and he’s still trying to do right by the requests Joe has made of him regarding feelings. That’s amazing.
And yet, despite all that, Joe is still grumbling because what little he can see of Danny trying to minimize that is still enough to make him feel that “Danny is being a bummer” and complain about that to a third party.
And that’s what bothers me. Like, no, Joe shouldn’t be a mind reader, but the only reason Danny is clammed up to his best friend is because his best friend has literally yelled at him consistently about not showing misery about break-ups or showing any emotional stuff in front of him. And because Danny is trying to do his best to follow suit with Joe’s request and it’s still not enough for Joe.
Like Joe isn’t even saying “I dunno, he’s been avoiding me a lot lately, it’s really weird” which would still be douchey but would be much more understandable cause it would imply he’s misreading Danny’s attempts.
Instead, Joe is still complaining about “Danny being a bummer”, even with Danny doing all this to make sure his “feelings” don’t “infect” Joe:
All because he’s trying to follow the requests made of him. And yeah, that especially bothers me because one of the things my ex used to do that I’ve slowly realized was kinda abusive was that I wasn’t allowed to express any negative emotions because “they hurt her” and instead had to try and desperately hide any sign that I was struggling with intense sadness or was upset about something that had happened to me (the most extreme being having to hide being angry and upset about someone threatening to kill me).
So I know from personal experience how hard it is to hide any sign of emotions from someone who requests you don’t show them is and how shitty it feels when they still react negatively to it because what little that leaked out was enough to get them complaining about it.
It doesn’t take magic to know your friend is down. Hell, it doesn’t take magic to know that a stranger is down, unless they are actively hiding it (which we know Danny can’t do). You don’t have to know all the details.
Joe said that Danny is a bummer. He knows he’s down. And he calls it him being a “bummer.” It’s all about how Danny affects him. It’s not that Danny is sad and won’t talk to him. It’s that Danny makes Joe feel bummed out.
Danny only refuses to tell Joe his problems because, every time he did so, Joe either got all over him or turned it into something else. Danny even told him as much. But does Joe see the problem and try to fix it? No, he just hangs out with someone else and badmouths his “friend.”
Yeah, that’s what’s bothering me I think the most.
Like, his friend is miserable and not talking to him about it/avoiding him entirely because he’s been hostile in the past.
So Joe can a) apologize for pushing Danny away and say, hey, yeah, I know I’ve been hard on you in the past, but I do care about you and there’s circumstances I can suck it up and deal with messy emotional stuff to help a friend in need.
b) Let Danny pull away, accept that as the price of previous actions, and cherish that your friend is so considerate to you that he’s willing to suffer in private and not be in his room just to keep emotions off you since he knows that distresses you and plan some big gesture to thank him for that and to show support in a major other way and say, hey, you get the room, I can bail for a few days, stay with people I’m banging or a friend so you can process. Should I call that lanky dude that seems to help you or is this about him?
But instead, Joe chose c) shrug it off, do nothing to support Danny or even create a safe space for Danny to process in peace and not feel he has to try and force a mask for Joe, and then whined to other people about how Danny is bumming him out and how hard Danny trying his damndest to hide his hurt is still too much Danny stereotype and is “bad for Joe”.
Like, it’s valid to do, but it makes Joe a giant flaming douchebag and someone Danny is well rid of until Joe gets his shit together and then even then, I’d be hesitant about Danny letting him back into his life.
I honestly can’t remember any time Joe has supported Danny in any way except trying to get him a date. That last time they had any kind of emotional conversation, Joe didn’t say he was willing to support Danny if he was honest. He said supporting Danny would be “handholding you through some excruciating journey of self-discovery”, which I would find pretty discouraging even if he had said he was willing to do it, which he didn’t. And then he tells Danny that talking about things with him got old, that he was glad Danny did it with Dorothy instead, that he wants Danny to do it with his girlfriend now. I can’t see an offer of support anywhere in there, and I’m not surprised at all that Danny has just stopped talking to him.
Let me preface this by saying you’re not wrong about anything you’ve said here.
That being said, a part of me wants to try to give some amount of partial credit to Joe that I think he might honestly be worried about Danny, realizing he’s going through -something- even if he doesn’t know what, but that worry is coming out as criticism because Joe is still too caught up in his particular idea of masculinity to let himself be worried, to let himself think about another male’s emotions, to let himself take human behavior at other-than-face-value, and in particular to let himself openly express such worry to another ‘bro’. But it’s still nagging at him, so he brings it up in the only acceptable bro way. I’d like to imagine if it was Dorothy instead of Jacob there might be some extremely roundabout questioning if she knows anything about what’s up or extremely roundabout prompting that maybe she can look into this. Since girls are good at that crap, y’know.
None of which is actually ‘good’ exactly, but… COULD have potential to be a bit of extra weight toward pushing him to growth. Hopefully. Maybe.
And that’s a thing that definitely happens and there’s some potential evidence for that being the case here, because Joe does seems to be spending a good little bit of time dwelling on Danny, which could definitely be a sign of him worrying and trying to interpret it/express it through the “bro code”.
Personally, I’m interested in hearing more about what Joe has gone through in his own life that makes him so absolutely determined to not get any of “the feels” on him. That is some thick armor, far beyond (IMO) ordinary bro-ness.
It’s pretty heavily implied that Joe’s parents’ divorce hit him harder than he cares to admit, and a lot of his attitude about not getting emotionally inolved stems from that.
I know it’s been said before, again and again and again-
But I am so, so glad you are there for your students. You are an amazing person, Cerberus.
(Also grats to your student!)
Panel 2: I will never not be skeezed out by Joe’s pickup culture sleazery.
Cause, this constant distillation into game and hunt, into trying to “master class” women as if they were the boss battle of a video game rather than human beings with thoughts and wants and well… libidos! Like, you’re in college and you’re reasonably fit and clearly some women are willing to overlook your terrible personality because you’ve got a nice enough face and have good stamina in the sack. Just fucking talk to people like a normal human being already.
It’s just such an underhanded way of viewing consent and sex and the fact that queer-romantic ace women like me are seen as a “challenge” for fucks like this makes it all the grosser.
Also, this part is really bothering me:
“He’s the unintimidating approachable one”
Like, yeah, the fact that Joe continues to view Danny more as a prop than a friend. Someone to set out as lure for women is a big problem, but more than that is the implications of this line.
Like a) there’s the implied contrast that Joe is intimidating and unapproachable which… well… I don’t think Joe is interpreting things right given the “game” he’s shown in comic. He’s basically tried to pounce on almost every woman he “rates” the second they crossed his radar. So, if women are avoiding him unless he looks non-threatening, it’s probably not because he’s just so devastatingly handsome women feel shy about approaching, but because he’s well… a creeper.
And b) ugh…. okay, so I’ve seen horrendous PUA “guides” before and a lot of them have advice like “show ‘social proof’ by having friends around so you look ‘safe'”.
Cause the thing about rapists is that they often know that women are warned about loners being dangerous, so someone who seems to have a rich social life must be “safer” because “they must be okay if they’ve got people who think they’re all right”. And that’s well… not always true.
So the fact that Joe is placing Danny like bait to “counter” the creeper air he exudes because “Danny is approachable (cause he tries hard to be nice, especially these days)” and thus allows women to have their guard down for him to mack on is just always going to be one of those things that has me flashbacking to horrible guides like that and think of Joe as fundamentally unsafe.
It’s not just on you. As guy Joe’s attitude toward women makes me very, very uncomfortable at times. Like, he’s only one step away from being a Ryan in my eyes. And that’s one of the most horrible types of scum to exist. And Joe is like, this close to being a full on sexual predator.
Oh thank god, I’m not the only one who got the ‘Danny is a lure to bring in women like fish to be either eaten or discarded’ vibe.
And the PUA guide info just makes that worse because he’s not banking on ‘oh, girl sees me and thinks I’m cute, uses Danny as an excuse’ nah, he’s trying to lure them in by being seen with Danny, who is (mostly) a sweetheart.
UGH. It keeps getting harder and harder to enjoy Joe when lines like that make my skin crawl.
And it’s extra frustrating because Joe is emotionally hostile to all the ways that Danny is a total sweetheart and thinks it’s “weak” and unworthy of respect.
And yet, he’s willing to use Danny’s sweetheart qualities when it serves the interest of luring in girls for him to mack on.
It just makes the friendship dynamic feel so abusive.
Yeah, I think that was the closing feeling Emperor and I left on when we did the Joe episode.
Like, we see in his recent interactions with Joyce that he can be more but when he is in the midst of this PUA logic, he just gets so frickin’ creepy and awful.
The thing is, I think one of the major problems is that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. Joe’s father is worse than Joe is. That thing with Amber’s mother where he got all handsy was creepy as all hell. And when his face was on the ad banner like a week ago, that legitimately looked to me like the face of someone raping someone else. So a lot of Joe’s creepiness and general awfulness has probably been enforced in him from a young age for years.
While I fully agree with your views on Joe being a sleezeball, I kinda have to view his behavior through a lens which understands much to most of that is learned behavior and cultural indoctrination even as he is clearly better about such things than his father, who he at least has some inkling is even more problematic per the final panel of this strip. All this is just to say that I see Joe as still being able to, and perhaps even willing to in the right circumstance, grow away from such views and behavior even as I’m disgusted by what he is now.
And heck, breaking away from all the toxic messages of what it means to be a guy is sort of the coming of age arc for a lot of dudes and even Danny had some toxic baggage he had to check and handle before becoming the awesome lovable dude he is these days.
Still doesn’t make the PUA stuff any easier in the meantime, but I am very glad that there’s signs of how he’ll find his way out in his interactions with Joyce.
I agree that Joe comes off as skeevy, especially on this occasion.
However, given the glimpses we’ve seen of his better nature, isn’t it possible that this is not who Joe is, but a mask he feels he has to wear to protect his feelings?
I tend towards that as an explanation of some of the things he says. I have more trouble buying it when it’s shown as his thoughts. Sure, you keep up an act long enough, you can wind up internalizing it, but then it’s no longer really just an act, is it?
And even if it is an act, it doesn’t make what he says and does as part of it less real to the people he does it to.
Your and thejeff’s responses really get to an interesting aspect of masks. There’s masks you wear that mostly just hurt yourself and that would be like Becky’s masks, which are a survival mechanism.
And then you’ve got the masks that mostly harm others, kinda like “ironic” racists who go around making bigoted comments but “it’s okay” because they are “just trolling”. Like, at that point, it being a mask doesn’t really mitigate the harm done in a meaningful way.
And yeah, I think you all might be right on this one. That this might be a mask for Joe. Certainly its an active persona that he feels is necessary for his idea of what being a college guy means. But its a mask that believes in, reinforces, and does not okay things and is invested in not seeing the harm from it.
Like, it being partially performative might make it easier to take off eventually, but it doesn’t become a mitigating factor and it doesn’t stop being harmful until he takes it off.
Well, yes and no; depends on whether or not the pretense is mutually understood.
And it can be good or bad, too, either way. It’s possible to pretend to be a better person than you are inside your head, and thank God for that because heaven knows my inner thoughts can be real assholes sometimes.
If it is a mask, I don’t think it’s being put on because it’s what he thinks being a college guy means. That’s a why with a what; if it’s a mask, I strongly, strongly suspect it’s one he has established in order to keep emotional distance between himself and the rest of the world. It’s a very common thing in my experience; the specific form of that distancing varies, from e.g. Becky’s “zaniness” to f’rex layering everything with “cynical irony”. And Joe’s “maximum stereotype” is a very common one because if you’re playing to a stereotype it’s very easy to do; everybody, including you, knows what you’re going to say and do, so things become simple, predictable, and harmless.
There’s two really common problems with it, though. One is that you wind up continually exaggerating the stereotypical behaviours until they become so broad and overwhelming that they drown out everything else; the other is that you do it for so long that they become habitual, and then natural. And if the two occur together, someone can wind up really far down a rabbit hole.
Whether or not any of this is true of Joe I’m not sure. But as I noted above, I lean towards at least some of his stuff — for example, describing the reason he’s in Women’s Studies as a desire to learn “sweet lesbian facts” — being an intentional act, and I also think, if so, it’s an act he’s been performing for long enough he’s internalized major portions of it to the point he does it by default.
But if you read a lot of those comics of the structure:
1. Thing that should make Joe react with sincerity
2. *beat*
3. Joe makes inappropriate comment
With the beat piece as “Joe takes a moment to armour up” instead of “pause for comedic timing”… Well, they read pretty different. All speculation, of course.
Oh yes, that’s how I think it’s working in practice too!
But it’s also hurting people and doing real harm in the form of sexual harassment, sexist and homophobic “humor”, boundary violations, and the emotional abuse of his high school friend to the point where said friend doesn’t feel he is “allowed” to show emotions in front of Joe anymore.
And I think that’s one of the big differences between Becky and Joe’s masks. Like I sympathize with Joe’s reasons for wanting the mask, but he needs to move away from it, because that mask is having him do not okay things and those sorts of things have the same harm whether they are coming from a mask or an intentional villain.
Becky’s mask has had her do not-okay things, too, y’know. I mean, sure, Becky’s hasn’t resulted in any harm that we know about, though I can’t imagine Jocelyn felt real great about being called Hitler Youth even with that smile glued to her face, and Joe’s stuff has, so there’s differences of degree, and of kind, but…
Hm, you know, I’m not entirely sure where I’m going with this since I do agree with you that, whether an act, internalized or not, or paid trolling, or 100% legit, a lot of Joe’s stuff is bad juju. I think I’m just in reflexive “well actually” mode that I tend to get into when tired. Gonna call it here, catch you some other comic. 🙂
Yeah, all that tactics and strategising and gaming is really offputting, and a real warning sign.
It’s also a toxic component in his view of himself and other men. Just like he ranks women by how attracted he is to them (and thus how attracted other men should be to them), he attracts men by how much sex they are getting. And if that’s your basis for self worth it really limits you.
Like, that mindset makes you ask why he hangs out with Jacob? Is it because he and Jacob has chemistry or have fun together or have interests in common or helps better each other? Or is it because Jacob is hot?
I’d rather think that Joe thinks his reputation as “THE stud” may be intimidating to women who are a bit on the shy side and therefore wouldn’t approach him directly. Because Danny is not a stud and also more on the shy side, women to shy to approach Joe directly might take up talking to Danny as a stepping stone to get Joe’s attention.
This sounds like the “the stunning beauty with the ugly side-kick” cliche usually applied to women (where the side-kick always gets dropped for the beauty whenever she deigns to get interested). Also toxic, but in a different way.
I see Joe as being the Joyce to Ryan’s Mary.
Joe is trying to be a good person in his worldview, and would be horrified by the thought of actually hurting women. He is however part of the pick up artest culture and believes a man is valued by the women he sexes, a woman is valued by her sexiness, and men relate men by talking about sexy women. Joe believes women are the only people capable of or interested in real relationships. Joe personally believes that it is a mans duty to be honest about not being interested in a real relationship, and to leave a woman satisfied with the sex. Joe like Joyce might have some problematic views to sort out but there is nothing objectively wrong with a person just wanting sex and being honest about that.
Ryan seems to be everything that wrong with the culture. He is completely dishonest about his goals, and he is completely uninterested in being a good sex partner. He also wants to hurt women.
Joe actively avoids the most problematic parts of the culture and tells himself thats not what its about like Joyce. Ryan revels in them like Mary.
Except that unlike Joyce, Joe hasn’t been rapidly changing and dumping all the nasty, negative parts of his worldview. It may come to that, but we’ve seen little sign of it so far. The texting conversation with Joyce is about it.
About that, I’ve been thinking – what if Ryan’s getting his list of marks from Joe’s ‘do list’? It would provide him a name, a rating (or, to use Ryan’s gross mark thing, a ‘difficulty setting’ *shudders*), a brief description (which would provide him with an approach – he seemed to understand he should come off as churchy to Joyce), and possibly even a picture. This idea is really really creepy, but it’s one that’s crossed my mind a while ago. It is publicly published.
Now that’s something that might cause Joe to rethink his approach.
I doubt it thought. Joyce seemed more like a target of opportunity than anything. He couldn’t have known from something like Joe’s list that she’d be at that party.
Oh no, I don’t think he used it to find Joyce at the party – I think he might use the list to decide on an approach and the girl’s “rating as difficulty setting” for his own ‘to do’ list (UGH! Can we launch that dehumanizing term into the sun please?). Joyce being there was just rotten luck for her.
Panel 3: Okay, so let’s pause on ragging on Joe to just sadly shake head over Joyce. Like, I get her excitement, especially since Joe’s been a really good friend for her this weekend. But I fear she’s starting to get a mindset where what people want don’t matter as much as the ships that she has in her head.
Panel 4: Especially with the transparent matchmaking style here. Like, Sarah said no. And Sarah has good reason for a no. Jacob has a girlfriend and Sarah wants to get over the crush as she knows her and Jacob isn’t a thing that’s going to happen.
So Joyce trying to force it even though this can only end in things being harder and more awkward for Sarah is just… no, dearie, no.
But that’s probably intentional as Joyce’s matchmaking proclivities have been on display before and it might be a good lesson in why just because you want a ship to happen doesn’t mean it should be forced, even if that feels “romantic”.
Panels 5 and 6: Hoo boy.
Let’s just tackle three parts of this briefly.
1) Continuing to use Danny as an insult. Like, I dunno, I can’t ever imagine talking about a friend this way. Like they’re a negative trait I never want to be. Like, fuck, the only time I’ve ever gotten close to thinking that way is with a very ex-friend after he crossed a major moral boundary I could never forgive him for and which ended the friendship dead.
And the casualness with which Joe does it just feels so toxic given Danny’s parents and low-self-esteem. And it’s striking when you contrast with how much healthier Danny is after interactions with Ethan in comparison.
And it makes me glad that the two friends are drifting apart because Joe really is holding Danny back a lot of the time. And the reason is very cynical. Joe thinks it makes it easier to get what he wants when Danny is a joke prop. Some “inoffensive” lure to bring the honeys who can be yelled at when he tries to turn to Joe for advice or help.
And that’s really not cool.
2) Everything is a game or a system. Like, I don’t usually have patience with these sorts of worldviews and I have way less now that there’s a political system in my country that is likely to end in my death within the next couple of years because too many people viewed things like politics as a “game” to win.
Cause life? Life isn’t a game. It’s just us, trying to survive best we can. And the way Joe can’t disconnect from this worldview where everything needs to be viewed with systems and where Joyce’s matchmaking is a commentary on him that haunts his soul about his ideas of “studliness” is just… frustrating.
3) The girl he is lamenting “not getting” is a woman who literally screamed at him, what? A week or two ago? Because he wouldn’t take clear negative body language and stated disinterest as the fuck offs that they were?
And this is one of Joe’s more frustratingly infuriating qualities. That he so conveniently “forgets” noes, forcing people to refuse him repeatedly. Like, its taken Joyce actively befriending him to get him to stop sexually harassing her all the time and Sarah? Like, he’s not hitting on her… yet, but he is feeling aggrieved by her being pushed on someone she is actually interested in.
Wonderful points about Joe talking about Sarah again, which I completely missed in my post, and on Joyce’s increasing lack of boundaries in her matchmaking. I love Joyce, but she can be…bad at boundaries when it’s something she really wants (like waking people up or telling her not to get on their bed/close to them in their beds after they’ve told her to stop or in this case her matchmaking). She means well, but that’s not always good enough. Sooner or later, she needs to learn that ‘no’ really means ‘no’ and not ‘maybe’, even if you’re smiling and giggling and 100% sure this will be fun and good and for the best, you swear.
…..Which is kinda an interesting point in common between her and Joe tbh – they can both be pushy and manipulative to get what they want.
tl;dr I knew Joyce asking to push into this was bothering me for a reason!
And yeah, Sarah’s….trying to move on from her crush. She doesn’t want the kind of relationship Jacob wants and is currently getting from Raidah. She seems happy daydreaming from the next desk over, while sort of becoming friends. Going over and butting in to his lunch with his friend is not terribly conducive to that.
FWIW, I suspect that Joyce holds a unique place in Joe’s life. She’s the first girl with whom he’s had a reputation that has not had sex as either an immediate or future prospect. So, knowing Joyce is a major growth thing for him. Having her treat him like a good friend probably shakes his previous viewpoint about ‘what girls want’ and it can only go better for him if he takes this to heart.
Finally, I think that this is Joyce’s great strength as a person: She makes friends and wants to help people. She doesn’t always go the right way about it but it seems to be the case that, in general, people are better for having known her.
I don’t know if it will make the strip more pleasant or not, but I did read the end in a way that is less skeezy while still being in-character for Joe. I didn’t see him as thinking he’d have a shot with Sarah if Jacob wasn’t there. I thought that Joyce was being super transparent about using Joe as the “approachable one” for Sarah’s sake, and Joe was only reacting to that. Even practically-a-PUA Joe can notice when he’s being used as a prop to put two other people together without wanting either of the people for himself…I think.
Yeah, Joe and Joyce make the same mistake here, which is a good demonstration of being a romantic not being an excuse.
Jacob just got his pizza-with-friends turned into another awkward kinda-talking-with-Sarah session that neither of them want and is prepared for right now.
At best this will make a bonding experience as they laugh at Becky’s antics (and we KNOW there will be Becky antics!). At worst this will be… not good.
I really don’t think Joe’s insulting Danny or using him as an insult here. He just finished describing (super super grossly) how Danny is ‘useful’ when he wants to pick up women. Women will come up to Danny when their target is actually Joe.
Two women just came up to Joe when their target is clearly Jacob.
Therefore, he is the Danny in this specific situation. It’s an accurate description, and hopefully it’ll be a learning experience that actually this IS a pretty gross feeling and thus be a bit of pickup culture Joe leaves behind. ‘I’m currently Danny, and this is shitty. It’s just not fun. Huh. Yeah, not doing this anymore’. (Likely too late as regards Danny, but if Joe stops trying to get Danny to hang out with him in the evenings Danny’s going to see it as Joe abandoning him even more. Because as a rule, they don’t actually talk to each other ever.)
Panel One: Well, gee, why would that be? Oh wait, you don’t know, because that would require you to ask about something deeper than a 3 second explanation that solves everything magically. Danny knows you well enough to know you hate that and have shat on every time he’s tried, so why the fuck would he bother?
Joe’s anti feelings approach doesn’t surprise me. He seems to know a lot about passive aggression, grandstanding, and messy loud divorces. Shot in the dark – feelings were used as a weapon a lot as his parents sorted out their failing marriage and subsequent split. So it makes sense he’s no longer very big on feelings and prefers feel good casual stuff.
Sadly for Joe, the world does not revolve around his needs – he’s going to need to sort out his anti-feeling compunctions, because they’re making him a lousy friend. Other people do not share his ‘avoid emotion at all costs’ hangup and they have problems too they could use support on. Either Joe needs to step up to the plate or he needs to stop being friends with these people as their needs are incompatible (they need their friends to be reliable emotional support and Joe needs no serious feelings ever).
And yeah, Danny’s probably very down. He’s feeling like he failed Amazi-Girl, he got dumped, he’s worried about her health, mental and physical, he’s worrying everything he does will hurt her, and he’s sliding back into the hopeless martyr he needs to stop being because it’s terrible for his mental health. That might make him less ‘up and up’ than Joe wants.
It’s sweet Jacob asks about whether or not Danny accepted their invitation though – and sweet that they offered. That was nice of them. Danny means something to Joe, even if Joe refuses to delve into what their friendship means to him.
Panel Two: And yup. Talking about Danny is veering to close to potential emotional discussion, should Jacob ask why he’s been down. So move it on to the ladies. Thankfully this seems to be him talking about how girls come up to Danny to get face time with him, sparing us any gross hunting metaphors or descriptions of Danny as some kind of lure, as if women were fish to be caught and either eaten or discarded. Ugh. And yeah, that ‘I’m the hot one’ comment just dictates a prompt ego beat down in 4…3…2…1…
Panel Three: Joyce wingwomaning Sarah with this exact method is perfect. And I’m torn here. I haven’t decided between saying ‘Sarah, you’re friends, no harm asking to sit with them~’ and ‘No, Joyce, please don’t barge in on other people’s lunches, even if you’re friends.’ Well, friends-ish in their case. And yeah, going right up to your crush is intimidating when outside the comfortable dynamic. Godspeed, Sarah *raises glass*
Panel Four: Fair question from Joe. While they seem to get along alright over text, they have a harder time in real life. Part of that is because Joe stonewalls any attempt at serious emotion, but some of it is genuine clash. They argue a lot in real life, so I can see him questioning whether this is a good thing. And yeah, way to foist Sarah onto Jacob immediately. Smooth, Joyce. Stellar wingwomaning. 10/10.
Panel Five: Joe knows a wingperson when he sees one. The pieces are slowly falling into place, right on schedule.
Panel Six: Aaaaahhhh, schadenfreude. Sweet, sweet schadenfreude. And yeah, Jow is having a serious, potentially world view hitting ego shatter right now. And that can be a good thing – Joe’s world view, much like many of the character’s, is due for a good bit of revising right now. And while funny to watch him squirm, seeing his low regard for being ‘the Danny’ and seeing how much it bothers him not being ‘the sex’ in a room and being seen as unintimidating is……yow, that’s some toxic masculinity bullshit right there.
Yeah, Joe’s breaking from this toxic worldview cannot happen fast enough and I’m glad at least he seems to be on the right path in his text messages with Joyce.
Heh. I saw panel 6 in a less unpleasant light than Cerberus, but panel 1 in a more unpleasant light than you. I thought Joe was glad Danny had class, because he didn’t want to ask him to come along anyway. (I really hope Joe gets some character growth in this arc because I do friend-ship Joe and Danny, in the sense that at this point their “friendship” is almost nonexistent, and I’d like to see what happens if it regrew.)
Danny would have to first actually talk to Joe in an open way, rather than asking one question and meaning a completely different one, or at least be willing to agree that yes, he means the other one. And Danny’s not going to do that.
Why would he do that though? Every time Danny has tried to openly talk about things, Joe has shut it down immediately. If Danny asks an oblique question he gets at least a minute or two of human response before he’s shut down.
So now he’s not reaching out at all and Joe is still complaining about it and acting like he has a right to be aggrieved.
I’m not seeing where Danny would have any reason to believe that openly and honestly reaching out to Joe about his emotional state would work in Danny’s favor and not get him yelled at for “daring” to get emotions on Joe.
This. Being Danny’s friend is not necessarily easy; he does have a tendency toward indirectness and obliviousness. But it is not nearly as difficult as Joe makes it out to be. Or at least it wouldn’t be that difficult if Joe currently valued the friendship.
I rather think that Jacob and Joe are a good match, because neither of them wants any FEELS. Jacob ask what could be a neutral question, than Joe change track to avoid potentially emotional topics. They would have kept it up if not Joyce had shown up.
Jacob’s shown no interest in the whole pickup game that’s the focus of Joe’s existence. He’s talked about wanting relationships not casual sex. I’m not really sure what Joe & Jacob would have to talk about.
And given Joe’s realization here, I could see him avoiding Jacob, not wanting to be the Danny.
And he’s tried to have more emotional conversations with Sarah that Sarah has eeled away from. Like, he’s respectful of people who don’t like FEELS and is willing to let conversations be light or about subjects the other person has interest in in deference to that, but there’s little sign that he shares any antipathy towards heavy emotional conversations.
And he has definitely not been shown at any point agreeing with Joe’s worldview regarding PUA stuff and in fact seems to prefer a much more open, honest, and long-term-relationship focused approach in his own dating life.
I agree that he is nothing like Joe when it comes to the PUA stuff, and he’s not as aggressive when it comes to avoiding feels.
But I also think he has been pretty adamant in setting his borders about him not wanting to invest in any emotional drama. He wants low key, low stress and no-drama (and that’s completely fine).
So I think he and Joe will both enjoy each other’s interaction, being bros, hanging out, not being very intimate (the very opposite to the kind of friendship Danny has to offer, in other words). And I think that’s also perfectly fine, especially when you are new to college and need some stability.
I dunno, he invested more in emotional drama in the later comics with Raidah and I read that comic more as “god our schoolwork is stressful, we should have a low-key date” rather than a “I don’t want to deal with drama”. Heck, the comic I posted is the follow-up to that scene and Jacob actually encourages Raidah to share when people have punched her and so on when Raidah was making an offer to sweep the drama under the rug and keep things light.
Like, he also is super down with light conversation and is perfectly happy having just sort of shooting the shit style conversations with friends with no emotional stuff, but it’s not like he’s got a stated antipathy to emotions himself.
I think there’s a big difference between not wanting to be dropped into a high drama, high stress confrontation and not wanting “feels”.
Even people who are emotionally available may well want to avoid other people’s emotional crises, especially involving casual acquaintances.
He does want relationships, which is a serious conflict with Joe’s approach to life.
While Jacob does not avoid emotions the way Joe does, I do think you might be right that Joe is a good friend for Jacob. Jacob seems to be friendly, maybe even gregarious, but school comes first. Therefore having some simple friendships in his life is good.
Now, the ways in which Jacob is a good friend for Joe…that could get complicated. For example, I had forgotten until Joe Archer brought it up that Jacob actually knows more about what’s going on with Danny than Joe does! As best I can tell, Joe could learn a lot from Jacob about how to be a good dude.
I wonder whether Jacob’s asking about Danny is to be seen in light of his and Ethan’s coming out witnessed by Jacob? Jacob doesn’t appear to be homophobe in the least, feeling safe from Ethan, and probably from Danny too given his insights in Danny’s complicated love life (he knows about the Amber triangle).
The thing that I really find interesting here is that Joyce clearly finds Joe a non-threating person. We’ve already seen that she has a good general relationship by the fact that they’re privately corresponding but seeing her do the full ‘sunshine girl’ routine with him after everything that’s happened to her, Joe’s reputation and the disaster of their date is something to see.
Yes, Joyce and Joe are both wingpersons in this situation. The humour to come will be Jacob’s continuing uncertainty about what is wrong with Sarah and Sarah’s likely near-paralysed inability to take the opportunity when offered. I’m expecting Joyce to suggest to Joe that they give Jacob and Sarah some alone time and Joe to reply something along the lines of “No, I think that would break one or both of them!”
I’ve been unshipping Sarah and Jacob for a while now. Their wants are just incompatible. Jacob wants a steady, stable, meaningful, long-term relationship, and Sarah wants casual labido-sexings with a hot dude. And both of those are perfectly okay things to want, but they don’t mesh well together.
… also, Jacob’s off the market.
Also-also, Sarah’s been… far from up-front about what she wants from Jacob. She’s not looking for friendship from him. She really isn’t. But she keeps pushing the friendship angle, awkwardly, because it keeps the eye-candy within range. And she’s not acting like a friend, either. She’s deliberately out to sabotage his relationship out of a mix of jealousy and revenge. Not because Radiah’s BAD for him… which would be a huge can of worms… but because she doesn’t like Radiah. In this relationship, Sarah’s all about the hormones. Jacob, on the other hand, has just been trying to get her to open up, relax, and bond over something.
… oh, hey, something is here with them for a change. What are Sarah and Jacob going to talk about now that Joyce is here to overhear them if they talk smack about her? NOTHING! Because that’s all there is to their relationship!
You know, I actually think Sarah and Joe would be a pretty good pairing. They both want exactly the same thing and they could both fulfill that want for each other pretty easily. They’re both manipulative in their relationships and they’d treat each other with the same level of dismissive disdain. They wouldn’t hurt each other emotionally because they wouldn’t be emotionally invested enough to get hurt.
And… okay, if Radiah weren’t an issue… is it just me or could Jacob/Joyce be a plausible ship? Calling this one Joycob if no one’s named it yet.
You know, I just realized another parallel between Sarah and Joe: How they treat their roommates. A lot like Joe is always trashing Danny, Sarah’s always trashing Joyce. Her relationship with Jacob’s practically built on badmouthing Joyce.
It’s not EXACTLY the same, true. Sarah’s got a conscience about it, which operates some of the time. Sarah’s… not exactly willing, but occasionally compelled to meet Joyce on Joyce’s level with the kind of caring that Joyce needs. Sarah’s on-and-off dislike for Joyce is based on irritation level, while Joe’s dismissals of Danny are based on holding Danny to a standard that Danny has neither desire nor obligation to meet.
It’s funny that you mention it- In Roomies, Sarah and Joe did have a purely physical relationship. http://www.itswalky.com/comic/piece-of-meat/ It didn’t get too much focus and quietly ended, but the dynamic could be explored fuller in DoA.
Personally, I don’t think Sarah would go for it. So far, she finds Joe downright repugnant and even if she did not find his entire personality to be abhorrent, she really doesn’t seem that interested in him? Which, granted, wouldn’t really mean much in a relationship built entirely on casual sex, but if she’s not interested in him physically or personality-wise, there’s not a whole lot to go off of.
Sarah is a very different character in DoA than she was in Roomies!, where she was basically defined by being whatever Joyce wasn’t, with little personality of her own. I think she’s changed more from her Walkyverse iteration than anyone else.
That is also true. Sarah in DoA is verrrrrry different from Sarah in Roomies, and where R!Sarah would hook up with Joe, D!Sarah has made it very clear that she is Not Interested.
I always interpreted Jacob as having the hots for Sarah, too. It wasn’t until they stopped hanging out that he went to Reidah. And, even after what his own girlfriend has said about Sarah, making her out to be a violent psychopath, he still doesn’t hate her.
Heck, that made me assume he’s not that devoted to his girlfriend, to tell the truth.
He’d probably feel better about that if he was a video game.
Speaking of video games, Nintendo console pre-orders starting at 1:00 (Walmart, Best Buy, GameStop) and 3:00 in the morning (Amazon, Target) need to stop being a thing.
I welcome more of JoyJoe’s bizarre adventure. I see you sneaking it in. Keep it up. Don’t be influenced by people’s distaste for Joe. There are dozens of us who like him!
I kind of want Joe and Joyce to split to a different table to give Sarah and Jacob the illusion of time alone – for the little good it’ll do because Sarah already knows Jacob should not be on her radar – and start arguing about cartoons. Because Joyce loves Dexter and Monkey master, and Joe’s all ‘COME ON, Robo-Vac is clearly the best’.
Well, I have many antipathies towards Joe, but I also think his interactions with Joyce are the healthiest interactions he’s had in a while and really seem to be bringing out his best self. So hell to the yes on more Joyce/Joe interactions.
I can’t help but wonder if that’s somehow reflecting one of the other characters (likely either Sarah or Joe) are currently viewing Joyce: Too pure and too good for this world and this current situation.
Joe’s face in the last panel – looks like he just watched his first SHAM-ylan movie, and realized that the answer was right there in front of him all along.
I’m extremely wary about reading the other comics, not because of the massive backlog of strips, but because TV Tropes tells me a lot of scary things about the fates of my favorite characters.
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OH SHIT PLAYA GOT PLAYED
shit, good one alt-text
Listen to it in Sean Connery’s voice for double sting!
After this site was invented, who couldn’t?!
I wonder how many readers of this comic were born after that meme.
I think I was born before memes.
I think I was born before dial-up internet.
Memes pre-date the internet.
By 6 years in fact. But it took sometime for both to become popular.
“Meme” didn’t take off as a meme until maybe the late 90s?
I pre-date both. Well, not actual memes, since those date back to pre-history, but the coining of the term.
I didn’t. I heard it in Soos’ voice from Gravity Falls.
A fitting followup to the order of the day last time Joyce and Joe met at Galasso’s: PUNCH THE KID FOR GOD’S SAKE
just the ted mosby to Jacobs barnie stintsin
When I left you, I was the Joe. Now I am the Danny.
Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
if you strike me down, i shall become more Danny than you can possibly imagine.
Joe is the path to the Dark Side. Joe leads to Danny, Danny leads to Amber, Amber leads to suffering because you ran out of Pokeballs and there’s a Charmander.
No wait.
Fear will keep the local Joes in line. Fear of becoming Danny.
I am a Joe. Like my father before me.
But your father became a Danny.
But then he mustered back up one final burst of Joe in order to save you!
I’m looking forward to completing your training. In time, you will call Danny.
No, Joe. I am your daddy.
T-that’s not true! THAT’S IMPOSSIBLE!
I am one with the Joe and the Joe is with me. I am one with the Joe and the Joe is with me. I am one with the Joe and the Joe is with me.
Mike just got an alert that Joe and Joyce are at Gallasso’s, he’s on his way with his fist
“FOOL! We do not serve knuckle sandwiches at Gallasso’s Pizzas (and subs). We serve knuckle subs!”
“… I actually am a knuckle sub.”
“… in that case, you may, go head and service my customers.”
Bwomp bwomp bwoooooomp.
You’re a bad friend 😛
I really like panel 3. Good drawing Willis.
That cackle I just made was not human, but it was evil and very VERY delighted.
Stop Joeing things up man.
God damnit you made me laugh out loud in the middle of a yawn
He’s not Dan unless he can Dan it all up
…and do a Dan good job?
You’re Dan right. :<
Way to Joe it up, Joe…
Eventually, it will come full circle. Danny will be the Joe, and Jacob will be the Danny.
So Joe will be the Jacob? He’d be fine with that.
“The circle is now complete.”
Alternatively, “it’s the circle of Danny.”
When last we met I was but the Dan, now I am the Joe.
That doesn’t work because then there is no Jacob and there are two Dannys. So, if Joe becomes the Danny which would make Jacob become the Joe, then that would make Danny the Jacob by default.
Hahaha. I love everything that is going on here.
Hahaha, poor Joe, he deserves it.
Seriously.
I’m hoping that either A) Joe grows from this. I don’t know how, but I hope he does. Getting his ego beat up could do him some good, or B) he spends this entire arc being humiliated. Or both. We could use the comedy.
I’m betting on a little bit of an existential crisis, as he realizes he’s not the hottest guy at the college (let alone the earth) and as a result that he is not, as he apparently believes, God’s gift to all women (and some men).
Two words:
Food. Chain.
There’s always a bigger Joe.
Being the Danny might do you some good, Joe. Well, as long as it doesn’t involve getting into a relationship with one of the alternate personalities of a troubled young woman.
And now Jacob trips and falls, and Joe starts fantasizing about him…
Sorry, my Gravatar took over my keyboard for a moment.
Good thing he isn’t with Jacob and Ethan.
So, how long til Joe starts dating a costumed vigilante name Incredi-Woman?
More likely Joe ends up dating a would be supervillain whose name rhymes with Lidney Dus.
Kidney Pus?
I think it’s more likely he ends up dating a supervillain called the Whiteboard Dingdong Bandit.
Nah, it’s the other way around, people he was dating end up as Whiteboard Dingdong Bandits
belly laugh at the alt text ^o^
Interesting that Joyce volunteers herself to sit next to Joe. She must have really rebuilt her trust in him with all that texting they were doing.
Or…. She’s hardcore playing matchmaker by ensuring that jacob and sarah share a booth together.
Or she knows next to nothing about Jacob and (for some reason) Joe is on her “safe” list.
…. I mean we have no clue WHY he’s on her safe list, but she doesn’t go Ryan-flashback with him the way she does with strangers.
Well, he’s not a stranger, so that’s not surprising. She’s also not alone, which is when she really freaks out.
But I think it’s a bit of both – mostly Joyce playing matchmaker with a side of following up on the texting connection she’s been making with Joe. We’ll see if he’s willing to act the same way in real life and in public.
Unlike Ryan, Joyce has hit Joe in the face – gently by her standards, but she knows she dealt with him once, and she has dealt with worse.
And Joe appears to have been a source of support while texting.
Now, when do we get to see Galasso’s newest Employee of the Month at work?
Does Joyce know that Becky got a job? Was she in the room when Becky told Sarah?
Joyce was not in the room. That was last night, and it’s possible that Becky told or texted her offscreen later, or that Sarah told her when she came back to the room, but it’s also possible that Becky wanted to tell her in person and hasn’t had a chance to catch up with her yet.
Ryan never even tried to convince Joyce to have sex with him, because he was not interested in getting her to consent. Ryan presented himself as a safe haven not interested in sin right up until he tried to force Joyce into the bathroom. Joyce did punch him and even marked him, but Ryan took that as an invitation to beat her up before raping her.
Joe made it clear fairly early on that he wanted into Joyce’s pants, and has shown no evidence of being willing to have sex without consent. Punching made Joe back off for keeps, and despite the fact that he would be in his rights to fight back since thinking about sex isn’t illegal Joe just took the punches.
Joyce has been shown to be pretty open with Joe.
Well, at least we’ve shown that you’re not a terrible wingman.
Well she does want to pilot a fighter jet…
And Joe never associated with Jacob again.
And so Joe has finally become 2nd Dan.
I see what you did there.
Flawless victory.
Joyce and Joe seem to have an odd relationship. It’s ‘When Harry met Sally and Sally didn’t beat the you-know-what out of him and Harry wondered what the heck he got himself into.’
Three J’s and an S
and a pizza place!
You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become a villain.
… which is why nursing homes are notorious dens of iniquity.
I think you mean, “You either die a Joe, or live long enough to see yourself become a Danny.”
*can’t decide whether to play Jimi Hendrix or Survivor (and no, I don’t mean that one from the Rocky movies)*
Willis, you wrote this strip just for the alt text, didn’t you?
I cackled at that last panel and scared my roommate. So thank you.
Dun dun DUNNN!
Joyce remains the best Wingperson on campus.
Willis, I’m sorry, but how do we get in touch with you about book orders? We’ve been trying to email you for about a month with no response.
Eek! Try wiigii at gmail
Ok but how do we get in contact with you about soggies. They may rule, you see.
Try soggies at mayrule dot com.
Thanks! Email sent to you just now.
For posterity’s sake, I’m happy (though not surprised) to report that Willis was very gracious and resent my misdelivered DoA books right away. And the books are awesome, so if you don’t have them yet, buy them! 🙂
Danny looks like Kurtz in Apocalypse Now.
“The horror. The horror.“
Danny is not even in this strip.
Which proves how much Joe’s nightmare has become truth!
And cue Joe’s existential crisis and or sped up character growth in 4…3…2…
Joe’s mind has touched the Abyss.
The only sane response is insanity.
I don’t know what this Dan is , but it sounds very disappointing.
OK, this is it Joe, the moment of truth. Either you swallow your pride and your discomfort and sit down and talk to the Bible girl you have decided NOT to do, who has hit you in the faaace and who is a magnet for FEEEELS in you for reasons you don’t fully understand…
…or you are a Bad Wingman.
He’s already the worst wingman ever. Might as well get something-something out of it.
A+ alt text
I imagine Joyce’s last line to be spoken very pointedly while looking directly at Sarah.
“Sarah, SIT. NEXT. TO. JACOB.”
It’s always the opposites that attract lol, who else think joe and Joyce would be nice together?
Kind of, actually. I feel like Joe would have to fall for Joyce first though for it to work out. But they could balance each other in good ways.
He even gets Danny’s pout.
Geez, Joyce is so bubbly!
Comic Reactions:
I’m in a relatively good mood today (given the political situation, I’ve had to recalibrate what counts as a good day for me). The shitty head of school who tried to cover up a sexual assault of a trans student and treated the survivor like shit and even contributed to a suicide attempt by the survivor just got his ass chewed out by said student.
The kid was telling me about it later, but apparently he called the head of school out on all the shit the head of school has failed to do and done to make his recovery harder and refused to let him weasel out of it or accept his terrible advice that “forgiveness is the only means to recovery”.
I was genuinely proud of the kid, cause I know from personal experience how terrifying it can be to stand up to an authority figure who failed you in that sort of circumstance. And for a kid who’s only a freshman? Yeah, hella impressive.
So, I’m feeling down to analyze… anything. Oh bob damn it, Joe.
Panel 1: Okay, yes, I have many disagreements with Joe and his outlook. I view it as frequently toxic and more invested in being viewed as consensual than in being consensual. But hey, I’ve also enjoyed his interactions with Joyce and where he shows his better face with her.
But, outside of that… and especially when he’s trying to “bro” with Jacob?
Yeah, he’s kinda still really awful and we see some of that here. Like, really bro, you really haven’t put two and two together and realized that Danny is hurting and has decided to not reach out to you because you’ve been toxic every time he’s tried and yelled at him for it?
And oh, yes, even when Danny does his damndest to not dump his shit on you and process it all on his own like you fucking told him too, you still shit on him for being a “bummer”, because he’s not willing to play-act a Danny who has never existed for you to “bro” off of.
And it’s why I’m very glad that Danny is breaking away from this “friendship” because Joe cannot be bothered to give a fuck about Danny on a real level and actually be there for him. And yeah, I know he “doesn’t like emotions” (which no, I’m not ever going to forget tends to be a sexist trait among guys who think emotions are “girly”), but c’mon. Danny’s going out of his way not to get any emotions on Joe and Joe is still whining about it.
Like, Danny physically can’t win with Joe no matter what he does. And Joe’s weird fixation on wanting a prop to bolster his worst traits feels really ugly when you realize that Danny’s shitty parents also openly dismiss Danny and only sees his value in living the exact life they want him to live.
That kid is bad ass! I’m glad to hear he’s recognized that shitty admin for the steaming piss dumpster he is and is refusing to put up with his garbage.
Yeah, I’m super proud of the kid.
Especially since it sounds like the head of school was in full weasel mode and the kid just called him out on it on every turn and refused to stay silent anymore or pretend that he’s not pissed off at how his life was played with so casually simply because he had the “inconvenience” of getting assaulted in a way that “looked bad” on the head of school (cause he actively sabotaged the work area observation that should have prevented it and fucked up the follow-up because he just wanted “the problem” to go away).
And I’ve offered my full support to the kid and his parents and let them know about what I’ve been trying to do behind the scenes to support him and call out this shit.
Also, found out our head of school lied to the family about things having been done that were not only not done but actively prevented from occurring by the head of school when teachers tried to independently do them. May have “accidentally” corrected that misinformation.
Your supervisor, retaining employment, explain.
Just…how?! Why?!? I’d think the potential of opening the school to a lawsuit would be more worrying than the school reputation!
He is (from what I’ve heard) an old, wealthy and connected abled cisdude.
Enough said.
I would get shit-canned if I so much as thought about doing even half of what some of the abled cishet dudes I know get away with on the regular.
how is that supervisor of yours not fired yet? from what I can garner it’s not only yourself and the student who are aware of his abysmal handling of this situation and you have receipts. I really hope this guy is out of a job soon, he cannot take responsibility for the safety of students in his care :/
I honestly have no clue. I know the kid and his family and several of the kids’ friends’ families are all formerly complaining to the levels above the head of school, so hopefully that’ll be the last nail.
But yeah, it is… interesting to observe how hard it is to remove this rich white asshole from a position of power, while my trans friends get shitcanned for the flimsiest of reasons.
That kid is amazing. Full kudos to him! I’m proud of him too and hope this asshole head of school gets canned sooner rather than later.
And yeah, Danny and Joe’s friendship is crumbling and they both need to do some serious growing if this is going to work out. Danny’s growth being the sense of a spine, and Joe’s in not being a shitty friend due to his allergy about serious emotional problems.
Tell your student he’s my fucking hero, and an inspiration. The world needs more people who will call assholes out on their shit, and doing it from a position of disenfranchisement to a position of authority is a whole new level of awesome.
Hey, high five to the student!!!!
Yeah, Joe’s treatment of Danny is awful. However, I think his description of it to Jacob is less than honest, because it’s again filtered through his stupid bro!filter.
JoeSpeak: “Danny is a bit of a bummer.”
Translation: “There is this colossal mess of a relationship that may be over, and there was something of an abusive father, and he is mad at me, and I don’t really know how to help him and if I touch it there will be feels and I’m not willing to invest what it takes to reach him emotionally.”
Which doesn’t give Joe a lot of credit as a friend either, but it IS understandable given HIS parents and his and Danny’s shared history.
That has to be the bravest student I’ve ever heard of. And this head admin prick has to be one of the slimiest dirtbag assholes I’ve ever heard of. Seriously, respect for the student. I never would have stood up to my head of school and I had the privilege of being born a white cis-male in America. I just, I can barely even imagine the kind of courage and strength that kid has.
Good for them!
Yay! I am likewise in the That Kid Fanclub. 😀
wow, that student is so brave! *applause*
That kid is the bestest; good on him! Jesus, that head is an asshole. >:[
Forgiveness… bah. If one feels ready to forgive and move on, great; but that can only come after reparations have been made. Me, I am not one for forgiveness, personally. If someone does something that hurts you, you have a right to be angry about it! And insisting that they just “forgive and forget” puts the onus for making things right again on the victim, and if they cannot forgive what was done to them, then they become the bad person!
No, I am fully in favour of the way the Norse used to do it: Make reparations first, and then we’ll talk about whether or not I am willing to overlook what you did. But pretend it never happened? Forget it; you have shown yourself capable of doing whatever-it-was, and I am not going to forget that. I would be stupid to.
Hope that head gets everything that’s coming to him. Jerk.
Sorry, I’m really not sure why you think Joe should magically know all the details and that Danny is in need of support. Since, as you said, Danny’s breaking away, there’s no reason he’d have told Joe anything at all, and without actual facts, what’s there for Joe to know except Danny’s being a bit of a bummer this week?
Joe is someone who wants to know the parameters of the situation so he can act appropriately. Given no parameters/requests, he takes no action. Danny’s having a bad week, he can tell that much. Who knows why? Not Joe! Because no one told him why or enlisted his help in any way at all.
You cannot shut someone else out from offering help and support and then turn around and shit on them for not offering support and help. I mean, you can, obviously it’s a thing that is possible, but it’s kind of a jerk move.
And, in this arena, Danny hasn’t been much of a friend to Joe, either – Joe has previously indicated his willingness to support if only Danny will tell him that’s what’s required, and Danny’s response boiled down to ‘you know what, actually no, I’m not going to be genuinely honest and open with you for even a second, but I am going to shit on you for refusing to do something you have explicitly offered to do”.
They are bad friends for each other. It is not entirely and exclusively on Joe, and I’m betting it never has been. Joyce, who is open and honest just because that’s who she is, is a much better friend for Joe. Witness how he had no problems giving her good support and being an outlet while they were texting! She told him what was actually wrong and thus he had enough information to respond appropriately! And he DID respond appropriately, depiste the feeeeeelings overload, even though Joyce at the time was NOT his friend.
Well, Danny isn’t blaming Joe and is in fact trying to follow the requests Joe has made of him regarding emotions and the processing of emotional pain. Trying to minimize time spent in room so his “downness” doesn’t negatively affect Joe and stuff.
He’s in pain and he’s still trying to do right by the requests Joe has made of him regarding feelings. That’s amazing.
And yet, despite all that, Joe is still grumbling because what little he can see of Danny trying to minimize that is still enough to make him feel that “Danny is being a bummer” and complain about that to a third party.
And that’s what bothers me. Like, no, Joe shouldn’t be a mind reader, but the only reason Danny is clammed up to his best friend is because his best friend has literally yelled at him consistently about not showing misery about break-ups or showing any emotional stuff in front of him. And because Danny is trying to do his best to follow suit with Joe’s request and it’s still not enough for Joe.
Like Joe isn’t even saying “I dunno, he’s been avoiding me a lot lately, it’s really weird” which would still be douchey but would be much more understandable cause it would imply he’s misreading Danny’s attempts.
Instead, Joe is still complaining about “Danny being a bummer”, even with Danny doing all this to make sure his “feelings” don’t “infect” Joe:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/upset-2/
All because he’s trying to follow the requests made of him. And yeah, that especially bothers me because one of the things my ex used to do that I’ve slowly realized was kinda abusive was that I wasn’t allowed to express any negative emotions because “they hurt her” and instead had to try and desperately hide any sign that I was struggling with intense sadness or was upset about something that had happened to me (the most extreme being having to hide being angry and upset about someone threatening to kill me).
So I know from personal experience how hard it is to hide any sign of emotions from someone who requests you don’t show them is and how shitty it feels when they still react negatively to it because what little that leaked out was enough to get them complaining about it.
It doesn’t take magic to know your friend is down. Hell, it doesn’t take magic to know that a stranger is down, unless they are actively hiding it (which we know Danny can’t do). You don’t have to know all the details.
Joe said that Danny is a bummer. He knows he’s down. And he calls it him being a “bummer.” It’s all about how Danny affects him. It’s not that Danny is sad and won’t talk to him. It’s that Danny makes Joe feel bummed out.
Danny only refuses to tell Joe his problems because, every time he did so, Joe either got all over him or turned it into something else. Danny even told him as much. But does Joe see the problem and try to fix it? No, he just hangs out with someone else and badmouths his “friend.”
Yeah, that’s what’s bothering me I think the most.
Like, his friend is miserable and not talking to him about it/avoiding him entirely because he’s been hostile in the past.
So Joe can a) apologize for pushing Danny away and say, hey, yeah, I know I’ve been hard on you in the past, but I do care about you and there’s circumstances I can suck it up and deal with messy emotional stuff to help a friend in need.
b) Let Danny pull away, accept that as the price of previous actions, and cherish that your friend is so considerate to you that he’s willing to suffer in private and not be in his room just to keep emotions off you since he knows that distresses you and plan some big gesture to thank him for that and to show support in a major other way and say, hey, you get the room, I can bail for a few days, stay with people I’m banging or a friend so you can process. Should I call that lanky dude that seems to help you or is this about him?
But instead, Joe chose c) shrug it off, do nothing to support Danny or even create a safe space for Danny to process in peace and not feel he has to try and force a mask for Joe, and then whined to other people about how Danny is bumming him out and how hard Danny trying his damndest to hide his hurt is still too much Danny stereotype and is “bad for Joe”.
Like, it’s valid to do, but it makes Joe a giant flaming douchebag and someone Danny is well rid of until Joe gets his shit together and then even then, I’d be hesitant about Danny letting him back into his life.
I honestly can’t remember any time Joe has supported Danny in any way except trying to get him a date. That last time they had any kind of emotional conversation, Joe didn’t say he was willing to support Danny if he was honest. He said supporting Danny would be “handholding you through some excruciating journey of self-discovery”, which I would find pretty discouraging even if he had said he was willing to do it, which he didn’t. And then he tells Danny that talking about things with him got old, that he was glad Danny did it with Dorothy instead, that he wants Danny to do it with his girlfriend now. I can’t see an offer of support anywhere in there, and I’m not surprised at all that Danny has just stopped talking to him.
Let me preface this by saying you’re not wrong about anything you’ve said here.
That being said, a part of me wants to try to give some amount of partial credit to Joe that I think he might honestly be worried about Danny, realizing he’s going through -something- even if he doesn’t know what, but that worry is coming out as criticism because Joe is still too caught up in his particular idea of masculinity to let himself be worried, to let himself think about another male’s emotions, to let himself take human behavior at other-than-face-value, and in particular to let himself openly express such worry to another ‘bro’. But it’s still nagging at him, so he brings it up in the only acceptable bro way. I’d like to imagine if it was Dorothy instead of Jacob there might be some extremely roundabout questioning if she knows anything about what’s up or extremely roundabout prompting that maybe she can look into this. Since girls are good at that crap, y’know.
None of which is actually ‘good’ exactly, but… COULD have potential to be a bit of extra weight toward pushing him to growth. Hopefully. Maybe.
Also grats to your student on being a badass.
Very possible.
And that’s a thing that definitely happens and there’s some potential evidence for that being the case here, because Joe does seems to be spending a good little bit of time dwelling on Danny, which could definitely be a sign of him worrying and trying to interpret it/express it through the “bro code”.
Personally, I’m interested in hearing more about what Joe has gone through in his own life that makes him so absolutely determined to not get any of “the feels” on him. That is some thick armor, far beyond (IMO) ordinary bro-ness.
(need to think on these comments longer when there’s no *(%#ing edit button)
… because this is a comic, and it’s not (just) an excuse, it’s delicious character development.
It’s pretty heavily implied that Joe’s parents’ divorce hit him harder than he cares to admit, and a lot of his attitude about not getting emotionally inolved stems from that.
I know it’s been said before, again and again and again-
But I am so, so glad you are there for your students. You are an amazing person, Cerberus.
(Also grats to your student!)
Calling for the tee-shirt: I am the Danny.
We have met the Danny, and he is us?
Panel 2: I will never not be skeezed out by Joe’s pickup culture sleazery.
Cause, this constant distillation into game and hunt, into trying to “master class” women as if they were the boss battle of a video game rather than human beings with thoughts and wants and well… libidos! Like, you’re in college and you’re reasonably fit and clearly some women are willing to overlook your terrible personality because you’ve got a nice enough face and have good stamina in the sack. Just fucking talk to people like a normal human being already.
It’s just such an underhanded way of viewing consent and sex and the fact that queer-romantic ace women like me are seen as a “challenge” for fucks like this makes it all the grosser.
Also, this part is really bothering me:
“He’s the unintimidating approachable one”
Like, yeah, the fact that Joe continues to view Danny more as a prop than a friend. Someone to set out as lure for women is a big problem, but more than that is the implications of this line.
Like a) there’s the implied contrast that Joe is intimidating and unapproachable which… well… I don’t think Joe is interpreting things right given the “game” he’s shown in comic. He’s basically tried to pounce on almost every woman he “rates” the second they crossed his radar. So, if women are avoiding him unless he looks non-threatening, it’s probably not because he’s just so devastatingly handsome women feel shy about approaching, but because he’s well… a creeper.
And b) ugh…. okay, so I’ve seen horrendous PUA “guides” before and a lot of them have advice like “show ‘social proof’ by having friends around so you look ‘safe'”.
Cause the thing about rapists is that they often know that women are warned about loners being dangerous, so someone who seems to have a rich social life must be “safer” because “they must be okay if they’ve got people who think they’re all right”. And that’s well… not always true.
So the fact that Joe is placing Danny like bait to “counter” the creeper air he exudes because “Danny is approachable (cause he tries hard to be nice, especially these days)” and thus allows women to have their guard down for him to mack on is just always going to be one of those things that has me flashbacking to horrible guides like that and think of Joe as fundamentally unsafe.
Growth happens to most people. This could be one of those moments for Joe.
Oh, I do think he’s growing. We see that when he’s vulnerable and alone and texting Joyce. We see a better Joe he can easily become.
It’s just the PUA creeper stuff he does, especially when he feels he needs to “show off” to Jacob is just… yeah. Hard to take sometimes.
And that’s likely mostly on me. I’ve had way too many bad experiences with PUA creepers to not be hyper-wary of that whole rigmarole and nonsense.
It’s not just on you. As guy Joe’s attitude toward women makes me very, very uncomfortable at times. Like, he’s only one step away from being a Ryan in my eyes. And that’s one of the most horrible types of scum to exist. And Joe is like, this close to being a full on sexual predator.
Oh thank god, I’m not the only one who got the ‘Danny is a lure to bring in women like fish to be either eaten or discarded’ vibe.
And the PUA guide info just makes that worse because he’s not banking on ‘oh, girl sees me and thinks I’m cute, uses Danny as an excuse’ nah, he’s trying to lure them in by being seen with Danny, who is (mostly) a sweetheart.
UGH. It keeps getting harder and harder to enjoy Joe when lines like that make my skin crawl.
And it’s extra frustrating because Joe is emotionally hostile to all the ways that Danny is a total sweetheart and thinks it’s “weak” and unworthy of respect.
And yet, he’s willing to use Danny’s sweetheart qualities when it serves the interest of luring in girls for him to mack on.
It just makes the friendship dynamic feel so abusive.
Well, yeah, emotional stuff and him being nice to people is boring and harshed the vibe a few times, so that’s an obvious wet blanket.
But you know, chicks dig that stuff, so he’ll use that to mack on the honeys, as you do, right?
I need a shower.
Yeah, I think that was the closing feeling Emperor and I left on when we did the Joe episode.
Like, we see in his recent interactions with Joyce that he can be more but when he is in the midst of this PUA logic, he just gets so frickin’ creepy and awful.
Yeah, I remember. Wonderful podcast, very disturbing Joe-ness.
I hope he grows soon, he reminds me very much of some very unpleasant people.
Wait do you do podcasts with Emperor Norton.
If so, I cannot comprehend how I have missed this.
It’s called Podcasting of Age and is available on iTunes and Stitcher.
I was not aware of this.
How was I not aware of this?
I MUST KNOW MORE! Your commentary is always excellent, so to have it in podcast form would be amazing.
*hustles off to find downloads*
And my blog always contain links to the podcasts, as well as random ramblings: https://skepticalclown.wordpress.com/
*twitch*
now I need a shower too.
The thing is, I think one of the major problems is that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. Joe’s father is worse than Joe is. That thing with Amber’s mother where he got all handsy was creepy as all hell. And when his face was on the ad banner like a week ago, that legitimately looked to me like the face of someone raping someone else. So a lot of Joe’s creepiness and general awfulness has probably been enforced in him from a young age for years.
Yeah, not gonna lie, that ad banner was rough.
Concur. I was real glad to see it go.
Thirded.
While I fully agree with your views on Joe being a sleezeball, I kinda have to view his behavior through a lens which understands much to most of that is learned behavior and cultural indoctrination even as he is clearly better about such things than his father, who he at least has some inkling is even more problematic per the final panel of this strip. All this is just to say that I see Joe as still being able to, and perhaps even willing to in the right circumstance, grow away from such views and behavior even as I’m disgusted by what he is now.
True.
And heck, breaking away from all the toxic messages of what it means to be a guy is sort of the coming of age arc for a lot of dudes and even Danny had some toxic baggage he had to check and handle before becoming the awesome lovable dude he is these days.
Still doesn’t make the PUA stuff any easier in the meantime, but I am very glad that there’s signs of how he’ll find his way out in his interactions with Joyce.
I agree that Joe comes off as skeevy, especially on this occasion.
However, given the glimpses we’ve seen of his better nature, isn’t it possible that this is not who Joe is, but a mask he feels he has to wear to protect his feelings?
It’s possible. It’s even probable.
It doesn’t make him not a creeper. Not until he stops.
I tend towards that as an explanation of some of the things he says. I have more trouble buying it when it’s shown as his thoughts. Sure, you keep up an act long enough, you can wind up internalizing it, but then it’s no longer really just an act, is it?
And even if it is an act, it doesn’t make what he says and does as part of it less real to the people he does it to.
Your and thejeff’s responses really get to an interesting aspect of masks. There’s masks you wear that mostly just hurt yourself and that would be like Becky’s masks, which are a survival mechanism.
And then you’ve got the masks that mostly harm others, kinda like “ironic” racists who go around making bigoted comments but “it’s okay” because they are “just trolling”. Like, at that point, it being a mask doesn’t really mitigate the harm done in a meaningful way.
And yeah, I think you all might be right on this one. That this might be a mask for Joe. Certainly its an active persona that he feels is necessary for his idea of what being a college guy means. But its a mask that believes in, reinforces, and does not okay things and is invested in not seeing the harm from it.
Like, it being partially performative might make it easier to take off eventually, but it doesn’t become a mitigating factor and it doesn’t stop being harmful until he takes it off.
There’s no such thing as “just trolling” or “putting on an act”.
When it comes to one’s impact on other people, what needs to be hammered home is this: you are who you pretend to be.
Well, yes and no; depends on whether or not the pretense is mutually understood.
And it can be good or bad, too, either way. It’s possible to pretend to be a better person than you are inside your head, and thank God for that because heaven knows my inner thoughts can be real assholes sometimes.
It’s also possible to be “just trolling” in ways that aren’t racist or sexist, but just focused on the topic at hand.
If it is a mask, I don’t think it’s being put on because it’s what he thinks being a college guy means. That’s a why with a what; if it’s a mask, I strongly, strongly suspect it’s one he has established in order to keep emotional distance between himself and the rest of the world. It’s a very common thing in my experience; the specific form of that distancing varies, from e.g. Becky’s “zaniness” to f’rex layering everything with “cynical irony”. And Joe’s “maximum stereotype” is a very common one because if you’re playing to a stereotype it’s very easy to do; everybody, including you, knows what you’re going to say and do, so things become simple, predictable, and harmless.
There’s two really common problems with it, though. One is that you wind up continually exaggerating the stereotypical behaviours until they become so broad and overwhelming that they drown out everything else; the other is that you do it for so long that they become habitual, and then natural. And if the two occur together, someone can wind up really far down a rabbit hole.
Whether or not any of this is true of Joe I’m not sure. But as I noted above, I lean towards at least some of his stuff — for example, describing the reason he’s in Women’s Studies as a desire to learn “sweet lesbian facts” — being an intentional act, and I also think, if so, it’s an act he’s been performing for long enough he’s internalized major portions of it to the point he does it by default.
But if you read a lot of those comics of the structure:
1. Thing that should make Joe react with sincerity
2. *beat*
3. Joe makes inappropriate comment
With the beat piece as “Joe takes a moment to armour up” instead of “pause for comedic timing”… Well, they read pretty different. All speculation, of course.
“that’s mixing up a why with a what”, damnit. I’m too tired to be posting, should’ve known that when I started getting wordy.
Oh yes, that’s how I think it’s working in practice too!
But it’s also hurting people and doing real harm in the form of sexual harassment, sexist and homophobic “humor”, boundary violations, and the emotional abuse of his high school friend to the point where said friend doesn’t feel he is “allowed” to show emotions in front of Joe anymore.
And I think that’s one of the big differences between Becky and Joe’s masks. Like I sympathize with Joe’s reasons for wanting the mask, but he needs to move away from it, because that mask is having him do not okay things and those sorts of things have the same harm whether they are coming from a mask or an intentional villain.
Becky’s mask has had her do not-okay things, too, y’know. I mean, sure, Becky’s hasn’t resulted in any harm that we know about, though I can’t imagine Jocelyn felt real great about being called Hitler Youth even with that smile glued to her face, and Joe’s stuff has, so there’s differences of degree, and of kind, but…
Hm, you know, I’m not entirely sure where I’m going with this since I do agree with you that, whether an act, internalized or not, or paid trolling, or 100% legit, a lot of Joe’s stuff is bad juju. I think I’m just in reflexive “well actually” mode that I tend to get into when tired. Gonna call it here, catch you some other comic. 🙂
This has been a good thread, and ties into some of my own thoughts.
It’s bad stuff, I want to see it stop, but I also want to learn more about the why. (Because we’re all voyeurs.)
Yeah, all that tactics and strategising and gaming is really offputting, and a real warning sign.
It’s also a toxic component in his view of himself and other men. Just like he ranks women by how attracted he is to them (and thus how attracted other men should be to them), he attracts men by how much sex they are getting. And if that’s your basis for self worth it really limits you.
Like, that mindset makes you ask why he hangs out with Jacob? Is it because he and Jacob has chemistry or have fun together or have interests in common or helps better each other? Or is it because Jacob is hot?
I’d rather think that Joe thinks his reputation as “THE stud” may be intimidating to women who are a bit on the shy side and therefore wouldn’t approach him directly. Because Danny is not a stud and also more on the shy side, women to shy to approach Joe directly might take up talking to Danny as a stepping stone to get Joe’s attention.
This sounds like the “the stunning beauty with the ugly side-kick” cliche usually applied to women (where the side-kick always gets dropped for the beauty whenever she deigns to get interested). Also toxic, but in a different way.
I see Joe as being the Joyce to Ryan’s Mary.
Joe is trying to be a good person in his worldview, and would be horrified by the thought of actually hurting women. He is however part of the pick up artest culture and believes a man is valued by the women he sexes, a woman is valued by her sexiness, and men relate men by talking about sexy women. Joe believes women are the only people capable of or interested in real relationships. Joe personally believes that it is a mans duty to be honest about not being interested in a real relationship, and to leave a woman satisfied with the sex. Joe like Joyce might have some problematic views to sort out but there is nothing objectively wrong with a person just wanting sex and being honest about that.
Ryan seems to be everything that wrong with the culture. He is completely dishonest about his goals, and he is completely uninterested in being a good sex partner. He also wants to hurt women.
Joe actively avoids the most problematic parts of the culture and tells himself thats not what its about like Joyce. Ryan revels in them like Mary.
Except that unlike Joyce, Joe hasn’t been rapidly changing and dumping all the nasty, negative parts of his worldview. It may come to that, but we’ve seen little sign of it so far. The texting conversation with Joyce is about it.
About that, I’ve been thinking – what if Ryan’s getting his list of marks from Joe’s ‘do list’? It would provide him a name, a rating (or, to use Ryan’s gross mark thing, a ‘difficulty setting’ *shudders*), a brief description (which would provide him with an approach – he seemed to understand he should come off as churchy to Joyce), and possibly even a picture. This idea is really really creepy, but it’s one that’s crossed my mind a while ago. It is publicly published.
Now that’s something that might cause Joe to rethink his approach.
I doubt it thought. Joyce seemed more like a target of opportunity than anything. He couldn’t have known from something like Joe’s list that she’d be at that party.
Oh no, I don’t think he used it to find Joyce at the party – I think he might use the list to decide on an approach and the girl’s “rating as difficulty setting” for his own ‘to do’ list (UGH! Can we launch that dehumanizing term into the sun please?). Joyce being there was just rotten luck for her.
This is just the beginning of the hilarity that will ensue.
Because Becky has yet to attend their table.
Yes!
Oh right, she works for Galasso now! This is going to be lots of fun!
The look of hopelessness and despair when Joe realizes his game has failed him completely.
It’s ovah – you just lost the game!
Also, I just realized this is an interesting contrast to the day’s It’s Walky rerun.
Ahhh… HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
in this situation i have been the danny for so long as i can remember.
I mean have you SEEN Jacob, Joe? <3_<3
Panel 3: Okay, so let’s pause on ragging on Joe to just sadly shake head over Joyce. Like, I get her excitement, especially since Joe’s been a really good friend for her this weekend. But I fear she’s starting to get a mindset where what people want don’t matter as much as the ships that she has in her head.
Panel 4: Especially with the transparent matchmaking style here. Like, Sarah said no. And Sarah has good reason for a no. Jacob has a girlfriend and Sarah wants to get over the crush as she knows her and Jacob isn’t a thing that’s going to happen.
So Joyce trying to force it even though this can only end in things being harder and more awkward for Sarah is just… no, dearie, no.
But that’s probably intentional as Joyce’s matchmaking proclivities have been on display before and it might be a good lesson in why just because you want a ship to happen doesn’t mean it should be forced, even if that feels “romantic”.
Panels 5 and 6: Hoo boy.
Let’s just tackle three parts of this briefly.
1) Continuing to use Danny as an insult. Like, I dunno, I can’t ever imagine talking about a friend this way. Like they’re a negative trait I never want to be. Like, fuck, the only time I’ve ever gotten close to thinking that way is with a very ex-friend after he crossed a major moral boundary I could never forgive him for and which ended the friendship dead.
And the casualness with which Joe does it just feels so toxic given Danny’s parents and low-self-esteem. And it’s striking when you contrast with how much healthier Danny is after interactions with Ethan in comparison.
And it makes me glad that the two friends are drifting apart because Joe really is holding Danny back a lot of the time. And the reason is very cynical. Joe thinks it makes it easier to get what he wants when Danny is a joke prop. Some “inoffensive” lure to bring the honeys who can be yelled at when he tries to turn to Joe for advice or help.
And that’s really not cool.
2) Everything is a game or a system. Like, I don’t usually have patience with these sorts of worldviews and I have way less now that there’s a political system in my country that is likely to end in my death within the next couple of years because too many people viewed things like politics as a “game” to win.
Cause life? Life isn’t a game. It’s just us, trying to survive best we can. And the way Joe can’t disconnect from this worldview where everything needs to be viewed with systems and where Joyce’s matchmaking is a commentary on him that haunts his soul about his ideas of “studliness” is just… frustrating.
3) The girl he is lamenting “not getting” is a woman who literally screamed at him, what? A week or two ago? Because he wouldn’t take clear negative body language and stated disinterest as the fuck offs that they were?
And this is one of Joe’s more frustratingly infuriating qualities. That he so conveniently “forgets” noes, forcing people to refuse him repeatedly. Like, its taken Joyce actively befriending him to get him to stop sexually harassing her all the time and Sarah? Like, he’s not hitting on her… yet, but he is feeling aggrieved by her being pushed on someone she is actually interested in.
And it makes his “consent” really untrustworthy.
Wonderful points about Joe talking about Sarah again, which I completely missed in my post, and on Joyce’s increasing lack of boundaries in her matchmaking. I love Joyce, but she can be…bad at boundaries when it’s something she really wants (like waking people up or telling her not to get on their bed/close to them in their beds after they’ve told her to stop or in this case her matchmaking). She means well, but that’s not always good enough. Sooner or later, she needs to learn that ‘no’ really means ‘no’ and not ‘maybe’, even if you’re smiling and giggling and 100% sure this will be fun and good and for the best, you swear.
…..Which is kinda an interesting point in common between her and Joe tbh – they can both be pushy and manipulative to get what they want.
tl;dr I knew Joyce asking to push into this was bothering me for a reason!
And yeah, Sarah’s….trying to move on from her crush. She doesn’t want the kind of relationship Jacob wants and is currently getting from Raidah. She seems happy daydreaming from the next desk over, while sort of becoming friends. Going over and butting in to his lunch with his friend is not terribly conducive to that.
On the one hand, Joyce doesn’t know that Sarah is trying to move on. The last time she got Sarah to do socializing she didn’t want to do, it ended with Sarah claiming the benefits of that socializing to improve her relationship with Jacob, while staring dreamily after him. So I can absolutely see why Joyce thinks this is a good idea. On the other hand, there’s “you should socialize even though you don’t want to” and “I will physically drag you to do something you just said no to.” Knock off the latter, Joyce.
yeah, the latter is where my concern is. Even if she doesn’t know Sarah’s trying to move on, she does know Sarah just said no.
FWIW, I suspect that Joyce holds a unique place in Joe’s life. She’s the first girl with whom he’s had a reputation that has not had sex as either an immediate or future prospect. So, knowing Joyce is a major growth thing for him. Having her treat him like a good friend probably shakes his previous viewpoint about ‘what girls want’ and it can only go better for him if he takes this to heart.
Finally, I think that this is Joyce’s great strength as a person: She makes friends and wants to help people. She doesn’t always go the right way about it but it seems to be the case that, in general, people are better for having known her.
Damn it! ‘relationship’, not ‘reputation’… How the hell did that happen anyway? The two words aren’t even slightly alike!
I don’t know if it will make the strip more pleasant or not, but I did read the end in a way that is less skeezy while still being in-character for Joe. I didn’t see him as thinking he’d have a shot with Sarah if Jacob wasn’t there. I thought that Joyce was being super transparent about using Joe as the “approachable one” for Sarah’s sake, and Joe was only reacting to that. Even practically-a-PUA Joe can notice when he’s being used as a prop to put two other people together without wanting either of the people for himself…I think.
Yeah, that’s how I read it too. Nothing specific about Sarah, just that he sees which role he’s falling into in the little scenario he just described.
Mine as well.
Yeah, Joe and Joyce make the same mistake here, which is a good demonstration of being a romantic not being an excuse.
Jacob just got his pizza-with-friends turned into another awkward kinda-talking-with-Sarah session that neither of them want and is prepared for right now.
At best this will make a bonding experience as they laugh at Becky’s antics (and we KNOW there will be Becky antics!). At worst this will be… not good.
I really don’t think Joe’s insulting Danny or using him as an insult here. He just finished describing (super super grossly) how Danny is ‘useful’ when he wants to pick up women. Women will come up to Danny when their target is actually Joe.
Two women just came up to Joe when their target is clearly Jacob.
Therefore, he is the Danny in this specific situation. It’s an accurate description, and hopefully it’ll be a learning experience that actually this IS a pretty gross feeling and thus be a bit of pickup culture Joe leaves behind. ‘I’m currently Danny, and this is shitty. It’s just not fun. Huh. Yeah, not doing this anymore’. (Likely too late as regards Danny, but if Joe stops trying to get Danny to hang out with him in the evenings Danny’s going to see it as Joe abandoning him even more. Because as a rule, they don’t actually talk to each other ever.)
Panel One: Well, gee, why would that be? Oh wait, you don’t know, because that would require you to ask about something deeper than a 3 second explanation that solves everything magically. Danny knows you well enough to know you hate that and have shat on every time he’s tried, so why the fuck would he bother?
Joe’s anti feelings approach doesn’t surprise me. He seems to know a lot about passive aggression, grandstanding, and messy loud divorces. Shot in the dark – feelings were used as a weapon a lot as his parents sorted out their failing marriage and subsequent split. So it makes sense he’s no longer very big on feelings and prefers feel good casual stuff.
Sadly for Joe, the world does not revolve around his needs – he’s going to need to sort out his anti-feeling compunctions, because they’re making him a lousy friend. Other people do not share his ‘avoid emotion at all costs’ hangup and they have problems too they could use support on. Either Joe needs to step up to the plate or he needs to stop being friends with these people as their needs are incompatible (they need their friends to be reliable emotional support and Joe needs no serious feelings ever).
And yeah, Danny’s probably very down. He’s feeling like he failed Amazi-Girl, he got dumped, he’s worried about her health, mental and physical, he’s worrying everything he does will hurt her, and he’s sliding back into the hopeless martyr he needs to stop being because it’s terrible for his mental health. That might make him less ‘up and up’ than Joe wants.
It’s sweet Jacob asks about whether or not Danny accepted their invitation though – and sweet that they offered. That was nice of them. Danny means something to Joe, even if Joe refuses to delve into what their friendship means to him.
Panel Two: And yup. Talking about Danny is veering to close to potential emotional discussion, should Jacob ask why he’s been down. So move it on to the ladies. Thankfully this seems to be him talking about how girls come up to Danny to get face time with him, sparing us any gross hunting metaphors or descriptions of Danny as some kind of lure, as if women were fish to be caught and either eaten or discarded. Ugh. And yeah, that ‘I’m the hot one’ comment just dictates a prompt ego beat down in 4…3…2…1…
Panel Three: Joyce wingwomaning Sarah with this exact method is perfect. And I’m torn here. I haven’t decided between saying ‘Sarah, you’re friends, no harm asking to sit with them~’ and ‘No, Joyce, please don’t barge in on other people’s lunches, even if you’re friends.’ Well, friends-ish in their case. And yeah, going right up to your crush is intimidating when outside the comfortable dynamic. Godspeed, Sarah *raises glass*
Panel Four: Fair question from Joe. While they seem to get along alright over text, they have a harder time in real life. Part of that is because Joe stonewalls any attempt at serious emotion, but some of it is genuine clash. They argue a lot in real life, so I can see him questioning whether this is a good thing. And yeah, way to foist Sarah onto Jacob immediately. Smooth, Joyce. Stellar wingwomaning. 10/10.
Panel Five: Joe knows a wingperson when he sees one. The pieces are slowly falling into place, right on schedule.
Panel Six: Aaaaahhhh, schadenfreude. Sweet, sweet schadenfreude. And yeah, Jow is having a serious, potentially world view hitting ego shatter right now. And that can be a good thing – Joe’s world view, much like many of the character’s, is due for a good bit of revising right now. And while funny to watch him squirm, seeing his low regard for being ‘the Danny’ and seeing how much it bothers him not being ‘the sex’ in a room and being seen as unintimidating is……yow, that’s some toxic masculinity bullshit right there.
Yeah, Joe’s breaking from this toxic worldview cannot happen fast enough and I’m glad at least he seems to be on the right path in his text messages with Joyce.
Don’t walk out of this toxic masculinity field, Joe, run out, blowtorch it, and launch the ashes into the sun.
Heh. I saw panel 6 in a less unpleasant light than Cerberus, but panel 1 in a more unpleasant light than you. I thought Joe was glad Danny had class, because he didn’t want to ask him to come along anyway. (I really hope Joe gets some character growth in this arc because I do friend-ship Joe and Danny, in the sense that at this point their “friendship” is almost nonexistent, and I’d like to see what happens if it regrew.)
Yeah, I doubt Joe actually asked Danny. After all, he knew he had class, which makes the perfect excuse.
Danny would have to first actually talk to Joe in an open way, rather than asking one question and meaning a completely different one, or at least be willing to agree that yes, he means the other one. And Danny’s not going to do that.
Why would he do that though? Every time Danny has tried to openly talk about things, Joe has shut it down immediately. If Danny asks an oblique question he gets at least a minute or two of human response before he’s shut down.
So now he’s not reaching out at all and Joe is still complaining about it and acting like he has a right to be aggrieved.
I’m not seeing where Danny would have any reason to believe that openly and honestly reaching out to Joe about his emotional state would work in Danny’s favor and not get him yelled at for “daring” to get emotions on Joe.
This. Being Danny’s friend is not necessarily easy; he does have a tendency toward indirectness and obliviousness. But it is not nearly as difficult as Joe makes it out to be. Or at least it wouldn’t be that difficult if Joe currently valued the friendship.
I rather think that Jacob and Joe are a good match, because neither of them wants any FEELS. Jacob ask what could be a neutral question, than Joe change track to avoid potentially emotional topics. They would have kept it up if not Joyce had shown up.
Probably. It’s a bit of an odd match though.
Jacob’s shown no interest in the whole pickup game that’s the focus of Joe’s existence. He’s talked about wanting relationships not casual sex. I’m not really sure what Joe & Jacob would have to talk about.
And given Joe’s realization here, I could see him avoiding Jacob, not wanting to be the Danny.
And there’s the fact that Jacob actually likes FEELS:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/feigned/
And he’s tried to have more emotional conversations with Sarah that Sarah has eeled away from. Like, he’s respectful of people who don’t like FEELS and is willing to let conversations be light or about subjects the other person has interest in in deference to that, but there’s little sign that he shares any antipathy towards heavy emotional conversations.
And he has definitely not been shown at any point agreeing with Joe’s worldview regarding PUA stuff and in fact seems to prefer a much more open, honest, and long-term-relationship focused approach in his own dating life.
I agree that he is nothing like Joe when it comes to the PUA stuff, and he’s not as aggressive when it comes to avoiding feels.
But I also think he has been pretty adamant in setting his borders about him not wanting to invest in any emotional drama. He wants low key, low stress and no-drama (and that’s completely fine).
Moments like this
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/lowstress/
So I think he and Joe will both enjoy each other’s interaction, being bros, hanging out, not being very intimate (the very opposite to the kind of friendship Danny has to offer, in other words). And I think that’s also perfectly fine, especially when you are new to college and need some stability.
I dunno, he invested more in emotional drama in the later comics with Raidah and I read that comic more as “god our schoolwork is stressful, we should have a low-key date” rather than a “I don’t want to deal with drama”. Heck, the comic I posted is the follow-up to that scene and Jacob actually encourages Raidah to share when people have punched her and so on when Raidah was making an offer to sweep the drama under the rug and keep things light.
Like, he also is super down with light conversation and is perfectly happy having just sort of shooting the shit style conversations with friends with no emotional stuff, but it’s not like he’s got a stated antipathy to emotions himself.
I think there’s a big difference between not wanting to be dropped into a high drama, high stress confrontation and not wanting “feels”.
Even people who are emotionally available may well want to avoid other people’s emotional crises, especially involving casual acquaintances.
He does want relationships, which is a serious conflict with Joe’s approach to life.
I see your points, and you might very well be right. And I agree that his interaction with Sarah absolutely isn’t “no-feels”.
Actually let’s hope Joe take some leafs from his book.
While Jacob does not avoid emotions the way Joe does, I do think you might be right that Joe is a good friend for Jacob. Jacob seems to be friendly, maybe even gregarious, but school comes first. Therefore having some simple friendships in his life is good.
Now, the ways in which Jacob is a good friend for Joe…that could get complicated. For example, I had forgotten until Joe Archer brought it up that Jacob actually knows more about what’s going on with Danny than Joe does! As best I can tell, Joe could learn a lot from Jacob about how to be a good dude.
I wonder whether Jacob’s asking about Danny is to be seen in light of his and Ethan’s coming out witnessed by Jacob? Jacob doesn’t appear to be homophobe in the least, feeling safe from Ethan, and probably from Danny too given his insights in Danny’s complicated love life (he knows about the Amber triangle).
Gotta be one of the top five alt texts of all time.
Huh. He assumed this is because he thinks Jacob is now the hotter one, and not because they’re both black.
Not sure if that’s progress or narcissism.
Joe’s never seemed the type who’d jump to ‘it’s just cuz they’re both black as a reason’.
And it helps that he was just talking about that method of getting in with someone, so that helps. It was on the brain.
Yes, Joe. YOU are the Danny now.
Better not Dan it up, Joe!
*alt text*
*Call On Me plays on a loop forever*
You are the Danny. It’s you.
I really, REALLY was hoping this one would be titled “I AM the Danny.”
“No, I am Danny”
“I am Danny”
“I am Danny”
“SILENCE, FOOOOOOLS, I AM GALASSO!!!!!”
*The real Danny timidly from the door* “Um… I am Danny…”
I’m Danny, and so’s my wife!
Mind if we call you Danny, just to keep things straight?
The thing that I really find interesting here is that Joyce clearly finds Joe a non-threating person. We’ve already seen that she has a good general relationship by the fact that they’re privately corresponding but seeing her do the full ‘sunshine girl’ routine with him after everything that’s happened to her, Joe’s reputation and the disaster of their date is something to see.
Yes, Joyce and Joe are both wingpersons in this situation. The humour to come will be Jacob’s continuing uncertainty about what is wrong with Sarah and Sarah’s likely near-paralysed inability to take the opportunity when offered. I’m expecting Joyce to suggest to Joe that they give Jacob and Sarah some alone time and Joe to reply something along the lines of “No, I think that would break one or both of them!”
At least when your in your depressed no shaving portion of life.
Also danny phantom reference.
Okay, time to talk shipping.
I’ve been unshipping Sarah and Jacob for a while now. Their wants are just incompatible. Jacob wants a steady, stable, meaningful, long-term relationship, and Sarah wants casual labido-sexings with a hot dude. And both of those are perfectly okay things to want, but they don’t mesh well together.
… also, Jacob’s off the market.
Also-also, Sarah’s been… far from up-front about what she wants from Jacob. She’s not looking for friendship from him. She really isn’t. But she keeps pushing the friendship angle, awkwardly, because it keeps the eye-candy within range. And she’s not acting like a friend, either. She’s deliberately out to sabotage his relationship out of a mix of jealousy and revenge. Not because Radiah’s BAD for him… which would be a huge can of worms… but because she doesn’t like Radiah. In this relationship, Sarah’s all about the hormones. Jacob, on the other hand, has just been trying to get her to open up, relax, and bond over something.
… oh, hey, something is here with them for a change. What are Sarah and Jacob going to talk about now that Joyce is here to overhear them if they talk smack about her? NOTHING! Because that’s all there is to their relationship!
You know, I actually think Sarah and Joe would be a pretty good pairing. They both want exactly the same thing and they could both fulfill that want for each other pretty easily. They’re both manipulative in their relationships and they’d treat each other with the same level of dismissive disdain. They wouldn’t hurt each other emotionally because they wouldn’t be emotionally invested enough to get hurt.
And… okay, if Radiah weren’t an issue… is it just me or could Jacob/Joyce be a plausible ship? Calling this one Joycob if no one’s named it yet.
You know, I just realized another parallel between Sarah and Joe: How they treat their roommates. A lot like Joe is always trashing Danny, Sarah’s always trashing Joyce. Her relationship with Jacob’s practically built on badmouthing Joyce.
It’s not EXACTLY the same, true. Sarah’s got a conscience about it, which operates some of the time. Sarah’s… not exactly willing, but occasionally compelled to meet Joyce on Joyce’s level with the kind of caring that Joyce needs. Sarah’s on-and-off dislike for Joyce is based on irritation level, while Joe’s dismissals of Danny are based on holding Danny to a standard that Danny has neither desire nor obligation to meet.
Still, the parallel just keeps popping out at me.
It’s funny that you mention it- In Roomies, Sarah and Joe did have a purely physical relationship. http://www.itswalky.com/comic/piece-of-meat/ It didn’t get too much focus and quietly ended, but the dynamic could be explored fuller in DoA.
Personally, I don’t think Sarah would go for it. So far, she finds Joe downright repugnant and even if she did not find his entire personality to be abhorrent, she really doesn’t seem that interested in him? Which, granted, wouldn’t really mean much in a relationship built entirely on casual sex, but if she’s not interested in him physically or personality-wise, there’s not a whole lot to go off of.
Sarah is a very different character in DoA than she was in Roomies!, where she was basically defined by being whatever Joyce wasn’t, with little personality of her own. I think she’s changed more from her Walkyverse iteration than anyone else.
That is also true. Sarah in DoA is verrrrrry different from Sarah in Roomies, and where R!Sarah would hook up with Joe, D!Sarah has made it very clear that she is Not Interested.
Calling this one Joycob if no one’s named it yet.
I originally read that as “Joyce on the cob.”
I don’t think Joyce is ready for that.
… right, time for another shower…
I think Joe would learn very much the wrong lessons about consent and a woman’s no if they were to hook up.
Though I think a lot of the straight women in comic have slim pickings on the ground as far as the cast goes.
Which is… sadly accurate to life.
I could be mistaken but I think that’s because there’s a skew in focus towards the women. There’s just fewer guys to choose from among the cast.
Oh yes, very much indeed.
I was just making a dark joke.
I always interpreted Jacob as having the hots for Sarah, too. It wasn’t until they stopped hanging out that he went to Reidah. And, even after what his own girlfriend has said about Sarah, making her out to be a violent psychopath, he still doesn’t hate her.
Heck, that made me assume he’s not that devoted to his girlfriend, to tell the truth.
Look at me!
*Looks at Joe*
I am the Danny now!
calling back to joe’s comment in panel 2, if hes the danny in this situation and jacob is the hot one, is joe not entirely straight?
It’s possible to realize that someone of the same gender is particularly attractive without actually being attracted to them yourself.
its like joes view of himself has been shattered
From Alpha to Beta.
He’d probably feel better about that if he was a video game.
Speaking of video games, Nintendo console pre-orders starting at 1:00 (Walmart, Best Buy, GameStop) and 3:00 in the morning (Amazon, Target) need to stop being a thing.
Prepare to Dan things up, Joe.
Now you know who the top dawg is.
Joe is now Deputy Dawg!
In Soviet Indiana, the game plays you.
Eventually everyone’s gonna do the tiny-pupil-for-an-eye thing, right?
Will Mike be showing up to punch Joe in the face for old times?
I welcome more of JoyJoe’s bizarre adventure. I see you sneaking it in. Keep it up. Don’t be influenced by people’s distaste for Joe. There are dozens of us who like him!
I kind of want Joe and Joyce to split to a different table to give Sarah and Jacob the illusion of time alone – for the little good it’ll do because Sarah already knows Jacob should not be on her radar – and start arguing about cartoons. Because Joyce loves Dexter and Monkey master, and Joe’s all ‘COME ON, Robo-Vac is clearly the best’.
Well, I have many antipathies towards Joe, but I also think his interactions with Joyce are the healthiest interactions he’s had in a while and really seem to be bringing out his best self. So hell to the yes on more Joyce/Joe interactions.
At least his texting ones. We’ll see if he can live up to those in person with other people around.
Agreed!
(and, IMO, offer the best path to him being that best self more often.)
Let’s be fair Joe. Jacob is a glorious, wonderful speciman of man, you… you are Johnny Bravo.
Sort of a side note but I love how the decal on the mirror is giving Joyce a halo.
Nah, that’s not the decal. That’s just her inner purity shining through.
(I agree, though)
I can’t help but wonder if that’s somehow reflecting one of the other characters (likely either Sarah or Joe) are currently viewing Joyce: Too pure and too good for this world and this current situation.
Precious blue-eyed cinnamon roll.
I like how right now in It’s Walky it’s all about Joe and Joyce, and then we get this.
Joe’s face in the last panel – looks like he just watched his first SHAM-ylan movie, and realized that the answer was right there in front of him all along.
“No, Joe, you are the wingman.” And then Joe was a Danny.
Joe, don’t Dan shit up now
Mirror, Crack’d
Joe’s face!
Nice touch, Willis, the front window with the likeness of Galasso etched into it.
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAH! 😀
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAH! 😀
On another note, BWAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAH! 😀
When the student becomes the master.
I am very invested in the lives of these characters*, and will continue reading about them as long as I am able.
*In the context of this comic, specifically.
I’m extremely wary about reading the other comics, not because of the massive backlog of strips, but because TV Tropes tells me a lot of scary things about the fates of my favorite characters.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
as toxic as Joe is being here, this is still funny and deserved
When almost anyone is with Jacob, they’re the Danny.