There MUST be a suitably silly silver age superman story where Clark Kent’s glasses break and he desperately avoids his coworkers so they wont’ recognize him as Superman.
A hat works just as well in a pinch, in most continuities.
In all the others he can fix the glasses with some superreptitious power BS. Remember the time he defused a bomb with well-placed dance steps?
I think that the point Leslie was making is that she can’t take this any further so long as Robin is lying to herself, let alone the rest of the world. Robin needs to grow up at least a decade and take responsibility for her own decisions and their consequences before Leslie could see her as anything but a source of pain.
Not sure Leslie would use that metaphor for promises. I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t have fun making children, that is.. kind of her defining trait, and invitro isn’t exactly fun.
..I wouldn’t say that being lesbian is Leslie’s defining trait.
I mean, look at this specific strip for example. She chooses not to pursue the biggest crush of her lesbian life. Why? Because she valued her own integrity and honesty, believed in what she stood for, and refused to allow her horniness and lust for Robin hurt either of them. Instead, she encouraged Robin to be more honest with herself, and to stop pretending.
That’s a hell of a lot more of a defining trait of Leslie’s than being lesbian is, even though her name *is* Les bean
Huh? What does sexual preference have to do with making children? (Hint: nothing.) There are multiple options available to lesbians who want to become mothers, from turkey basters to IVF.
BTW, when a lesbian couple does IVF, sometimes one donates the egg and the other carries the child. That way they both participate. I learned this from a lesbian friend who in all seriousness asked me, “Wait, IVF is for straight people too?”
I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that the number of accidental pregnancies for (out) gay men and lesbians, for example, are much lower than for straight couples, even after taking the large difference in demographic size into account.
No, dammit, not promises. Dreams. Our dreams are like our children. They need our encouragement and support to grow. They must be nurtured and sheltered but allowed to run free. 😛
Dreams are like children. Unpredictable, impossible to control, ruled only by their animalistic baser emotions and a bizarre internal logic that’s incomprehensible to an outside observer, always showing up right when you’re trying to get some sleep, and if you behave like one in public they stick you in a hospital where the rooms have no handles on the inside of the door.
Almost all of the characters who were significant in the Walkyverse are retreading character-development ground they already walked in the other universe. DoA Leslie, though, seems basically to have just picked up where Walkyverse Leslie left off.
I for one, love the direction Willis went for this, given not two days ago I was talking about having to grit my teeth if this turned out to be just another rehash of the leslie-robin romance. Gladly, it wasn’t.
I’m still right on my other prediction, though, which was that all Robin DeSanto’s are terrible to all Leslie’s in all universes.
My headcanon that I just came up with is that Leslie remembers everything from the other ‘verse. It also explains why she fell so hard for Robin – she remembers the old one. Her running away now is like when Spoiler Spoiler the Spoiler’s Spoiler
I dunno if most of them are treading the *same* ground. Ethan knew he was gay, just didn’t like it. Amber had already become a superhero. Dorothy… well, I don’t know anything about her in the previous verse. But I don’t think it’s fair to call any of this character development retreads.
“Retread” maybe has stronger connotations than I intended. It’s not a retelling of earlier stories; they’re not following exactly the same paths. But most of the characters have had much of their character development undone, and are having to re-learn lessons they learned in the other universe – though not always in the same order, or the same way, or with the same people. (Though there are sometimes echos of specific Walkyverse events, like Joyce encountering Walky as a small child and not remembering it.)
But Leslie hasn’t been rewound back to the diffident doormat she was when she was introduced as “Robin’s lesbian”. She’s still the strong, wise, confident woman with terrible taste in women that she grew into over the course of Shortpacked!.
(There are other exceptions. Sarah, for example, is just a completely different person.)
You are not mentioning the obvious root reason for all these observations. Most of these characters have been reverted to their early college age, but Robin hasn’t and remains roughly the age she was in Shortpacked, or possibly even older than that.
At one point, I actually did have in there an observation that, due to almost everyone else getting rewound, Leslie has gone from being one of the younger cast members to being the adult in the room, but deleted it as tangential to the actual point.
Also worth noting is that Robin hasn’t been down-aged much either, but has lost character development, and is very much not the adult in the room.
…welp. There was a wisp of self-reflection, and then it gently floated away. Good for Leslie for bowing out gracefully; Robin…well, I’m not sure I can call myself disappointed since I wasn’t expecting better of her.
Like Aretha Franklin with “Respect” (originally Otis Redding)
Or The Animals with “House of the rising sun” (traditional)
and Patti Smith with “Because the night”. (Though the original Springsteen version has almost completely different lyrics).
*GIANT SIGH OF RELIEF* yessss Leslie made it out of that okay
i mean, obviously no guarantees for the future, but. immediate crisis averted. gives them time to think, and maybe next time meet in a less sexually-charged encounter . .
Okay, gonna try and get this out early because for some reason, my hope and anger fell out in a big way today leaving me in a real shitty headspace that’s making it hard to do fucking anything other than curl in a ball and cry.
Panels 1 and 2: Those blushes in these panels for Robin. I’m not sure what it was she was hoping would happen here (probably Leslie removing her glasses and kissing her), but it’s powerful and I would hope she actually sits and introspects about those feelings, because as Leslie notes later on, those are important.
Panel 3 1st half: Yeah, Leslie knows from brutal first experience the price of pretending, of throwing a last ditch effort to try and be what you’re not. And it is brutal, even when you have no clue that you’re pretending. When I was younger, I attempted suicide… a lot and I self-injured even more than that, to the point where I’m still shocked that my arms aren’t just a mass of scar tissue.
And bullying played its part, but far more than that was being in denial about the dysphoria ripping me apart. Being honest… has cost me. But remaining in the closet would have killed me and now I know I can’t ever go back and pretend to be something I’m not ever again.
Panel 3, 2nd half: “You can ruin more lives than your own”.
And that’s the kicker to the whole thing. Robin’s denial doesn’t just cost her, it costs every queer kid she kicks in the teeth to remain in denial and continue to support hate organizations. Every ounce of denial, every minute she delays from her realization is another queer kid whose life is made worse by her policies.
And beyond that, there’s the interpersonal. If Leslie had less self-esteem, had been more willing to be Robin’s secret lover, her life would have been ruined as well. Not only because of the likely scandal that would eventually come out, but also by the self-hatred of dating someone who is hurting kids like you every day, of having her needs for true love and attention constantly derailed by the needs of the campaign.
And that’s not because the closet is inherently a bad thing. Some people are in scary shitty situations and the closet is the only thing keeping them alive. I’ve had to recloset to stay alive in my past so I’ll never judge anyone making that choice.
But rather because of what Robin is and supports and what that particular closet would help to serve.
And I hope that Robin would internalize this and think about it, but I’ve been real low on hope of late, so who knows?
Thanks. Today has been… really really bad. I actually broke a really really long no self-injuring streak today so… yeah. I’m safe, but… I could be a lot better.
I hope tomorrow is a little better than today, and the day after is a little better, and the day after is better, and so on. Into infinity and forever.
Thanks everybody. This is helping a little (no really, reaching out when things are bad is hard for me, so this is a big thing). And I’m hoping that my will to fight will come back in the morning after a long night’s sleep. Cause I sure as shit am not letting anyone enjoy my suffering again without one.
Hugs? If not from internet-person then I have some cute fluffy things to administer hugs on my behalf.
I don’t know how much this will help, I don’t know what you have or continue to go through and I don’t want to diminish your experiences by comparison. But I’ve been in those places, of suicidal wishes and self harm, and feeling utterly alone. Gender dysphoria fucking sucks. And the lows come back now and again.
But for my part- and I hope this is at least a little helpful- the lows are a bit better every time, and take longer to come back. Even with the state of the world being what it is now. I keep finding ways to keep moving forwards and up, little by little, and when I get knocked down I manage to not slip quite so far and have less to claw my way back up.
And maybe that helps? But if not, then hugs.
All the love and hopes and good wishes echoed too. It’s way more than your analyses that make you so much of the the good of each day. Everything you write here is a freaking gift, and the generous thoughtful incredible person behind it all is fresh amazement every day. *appropriate gestures of support*
Sorry to hear that your day has been bad. I know reaching out can be difficult, but if you ever need support, know that we’re here and that we’re wishing you the best.
Panel 4: Eyes closed, head bowed down, rubbing her arm, but hands almost clasped. I love it because it’s not a prayer, but it’s visually close to the mannerisms of one.
And that lends a religious aura to her request in Panel 3 and a silent message of hope. That her self-dignity will hold to her escape and that Robin will take something of meaning from this disastrous evening. Something that genuinely matters.
Panel 5: And you see that hope spring in her when Robin calls her name. Maybe it got through the layers of denialism and masks. Maybe it really truly hit home and Leslie got to do some good after all with barring her pain and suffering.
Panel 6: And this panel is heart-breaking, because, Robin has already rejected that introspection and turned back into her bigoted campaigning. Leslie’s efforts laid moot and sure, Robin may dwell on it alone at night, but Leslie won’t get to see that. All she’ll have is this moment and the way that burns and disrespects what she bore in honesty and pain.
And that’s fucking heartbreaking.
Panel 8: There’s been a lot of garbage produced this election season. But one of the most garbage has been the lament of sexist douchebags worried about their wives leaving them because of their votes for Trump.
And well, yeah, their wives should probably do that. And for all the whining about “mere politics” ending relationships, it ignores that politics is not sports fandom. It matters.
Laws affect whether or not people live or die and candidates mean the difference between trans and other marginalized folks looking forward to 4 years of very slowly growing rights and humanization or literally worrying that they’ll be in camps before the end of the next year.
Politics matter and political viewpoints are not “mere points of disagreements” but signs of whether or not someone values you as a person deserving of even the most basic of human rights.
Leslie’s desire for Robin is strong, strong enough to subject her students to hate for no good reason, attend a rally of people who would gladly call her slurs, and give Robin all of this care and gentle advice.
But at the end of the day, Robin is a woman who passes laws that make it legal for institutions to fire Leslie, that make it legal for them to deny her housing or fight her right to marry. Robin makes it easier for the next generation of queer girls to starve to death on the streets like Leslie nearly did.
And that matters. That matters more than all the strings of her heart going boom. And it matters that Leslie is able to walk away here and hold that true instead of defaulting to all the messages that say she should continue to reach out and give Robin a chance or undervalue her self-respect.
And it’s what makes Leslie an incredibly moral and strong person.
And I hope one day she has a partner who is worthy of her and can cherish her (and who is not a student, dear Bob people, stop shipping her with Daisy) as she deserves.
Indeed she does. And when she does, I think there will be both a voice of reason in the form of Dorothy and the ultimate wingman in the form of Roz, willing to help nudge her in the right direction.
I’m so sad for Leslie. She tried, she really tried. She knew she shouldn’t, it did blow up just like she thought it would, but she still went through with it. Both for her own sake and Robin’s sake.
And I think Robin will remember this, and maybe, just maybe, take the right lessons from it one day.
This isn’t about the strip, but your comments about politics not being a game have caused an epiphany of sorts – that is exactly what bothers me when people complain about people not accepting Trump won. This is not a fucking hockey game where you can expect a handshake and ‘good game’ at the end no matter what because it doesn’t honestly matter outside of matters of pride – this can actually get people hurt, killed, or strip their civil rights away. That is why they will continue to be a thorn in Trump’s side, contact their reps and senators non-stop and basically do anything they can to annoy him. Because this is not a ‘the guy I liked lost’ scenario – this is a ‘the guy who wants to kill me/take my civil rights away won’ scenario. And that fucking matters.
All the neonazis out gloating about how happy they are to be “winning” and “showing the liberals” and enjoying the “defeat” completely ignorant that we’re not crying and mourning because our team “lost”. Like this isn’t “gosh darnitt, my team choked in the big game”.
And for people of privilege, maybe all this can be that, but for the rest of us, politics is whether or not we live or die, whether or not we can legally retain our employment and housing, whether or not we have any real legal recourse whatsoever.
And that’s true most of the time, but especially true in this last election where literal fascists who are about to be in high government are openly floating the ideas of “camps” for the undesirables and where all of Trump’s neo-nazi fans have been eagerly calling for death camps for over a year.
And every time someone crows about “winning” or yakking about my “defeat”, it shows that they can’t even do me the courtesy of acknowledging how they’ve potentially signed off on my death warrant for so little personal gain for themselves.
Exactly – if you’re going to rank money, pride, or whatever else above people’s lives, at least have the spine to admit it. Don’t hide behind bullshit economics or whatever other excuse you’re using.
I would pay all of my small stockpile of cashbucks(there’s like fifty of them, until tax returns come around. Goddamn is Christmas expensive when your family is as…fruitful…as mine) for your avatar. I’d be much more comfortable being an unrepentant asshole if I was Mike.
You can get any avatar you want for free by registering with Gravatar with the email you use to comment here, and a bit of fiddling. See the link to the right of “NAME” when you are typing a comment. That’s how I have Evil Hanners from QC. Today, anyway.
I just realized that Robin and Clark Kent’s glasses serve the exact same purpose… hiding their identity. Once Clark takes the glasses off, everyone knows he’s dating Batman.
I had some thoughts about how Leslie’s comment about pretending has multiple layers wrt Robin and her sexuality and political life, etc but I’m too tired to write it out coherently
So…. “Out of this World” is what I’m playing now. And it’s because of the first two panels alone. It’s a song about having to go back to real lives, where we have to say goodbye for real; and how this makes us wish we could have another reality where we don’t..
Because in these two panels, I see a Leslie that is getting the reaction she expected, and understanding how she needs to pull back to real life. Sure, the reaction was not what she hoped for, but it’s still what she expected. In the first panel, she sees that Robin still fails to understand the situation, fails to understand herself. And she is not surprised at all. She managed to lure Robin into the illusion of what could have been, but with a Robin still not certain what is even going on, much less capable of reacting appropriately to it.
And then Leslie breaks the dream… I can almost see the sudden motion of her hand disappearing from Robin’s. With a puff of smoke, the fantasy is dispelled. The twitch of a curtain drops the illusion. Back to reality, just like that. No words really necessary. The mic is being dropped nonetheless. And nobody claps, because we’re too moved to move anything.
In many ways, I Would have been satisfied with today’s comic being only panel 1 and 2, and the rest being turned into tomorrow’s strip. Don’t even widen those two first panels, just run them as they are, centered, wordless, not even a sound being made until they remember to breathe again…
Silence is sometimes the loudest sound. Panel 1 and 2 as a stand-alone strip would in its silence scream volumes.
…actually I think this is Robin just saying the first stupid thing coming out of her mouth. She is on an emotional roller coaster and was about one second and one centimeter from having kissy-times with a lady (as far as she knew), and then suddenly Leslie says something profound and walks away.
I bet Robin’s internal monologue is all “NO, SAY SOMETHING, ANYTHING, TO PREVENT HER FROM LEAVING (…). Why did I say THAT? Stupid, stupid, stupid, Robin.”
” Miles’s sinking heart collided with his drunken panic. _I can’t afford to lose this one, I can’t, I can’t._ Forward momentum, forward momentum and bluff, those had won battles for him before.
” “Yes, ah, heh, quite, well, so, that reminds me, Madame Vorsoisson, I’d been meaning to ask you–will you marry me?
Yeah that was the vibe i got as well. Not so much Robin consciously ignoring the things Leslie said, but more her brain just spilling out the first thing she could think of before Leslie was gone.
“Good, as I’ve decided I want to retire, start a family maybe? Not sure how that works with the new information you’ve brought up, but I’m sure we can make it work- I mean- I can make it work…”
Not sure I can comment the second strip of today (AKA panel 3 and out) because I need to spend some time making up a whole batch of new cursewords for just how plinkingly gruesomifically buttcysthorrible -wrong- Robin’s response is to all of this.
And yes, I can imagine some pretty understandable reasons. But right now, I don’t really care. Leslie was at her absolutely most vulnerable as we’ve ever seen her, and…. Yeah, pretty sure you all know this already.
Maybe instead, I think I’ll talk a bit about something slightly more positive, but hopefully somewhat relevant.
Some ten years back, when I was visiting a woman with which I had hopeful prospects of a romance or at the very least a fling with, she shot that down. My first instinct was to say a lot of things… My second instinct was that none of those things were appropriate. At all.
So I said “I’ll just go out on the couch and think about this, so I don’t say anything I’ll regret.” And I did. And eventually she came out, and I said things, and none of the things were the things that I first thought about saying. And as a result, it ended at least somewhat amicably.
That was the first time when I truly realised the importance of being able to just shut the hell up when needed.
My wife knows that when she has a complaint about something I did, I’ll never immediately respond, because like pretty much everyone else on planet earth, my first instinct is to defend my actions. I instead take the time needed to think about what it is she told me. Could I have done anything different? Do I need to apologise? I go through all the arguments that I’d try to use to defend myself, and see if they actually hold up, or if they float as well as lead balloons.
And only then do I eventually respond. And sometimes I apologize and sometimes I do not. But hardly ever do I say any of the things that first came to my mind when being called out on my behaviour. Or even if I do use those initial arguments, at least I word them properly.
And my wonderful, wonderful wife knows this, and she approves of it, and never expects an immediate response from me. She knows that when I walk away, I am not ignoring her.
Fortunately for Leslie I don’t think she is in THAT a vulnarable position any longer. She has made her decision, she has sad her piece and she is ready to leave on a high note. All Robin did was ruin her exit. That’s coming pretty cheap out of all this.
Being able to answer with the brain instead of the gut is a rare gift indeed, and I salute you for it.
Taking a leaf out of Cerberus’ book tonight because she is great and awesome, her posts are inspirational, and honestly I’ve been meaning to start doing these forever – y’all can have two chatty Cathy’s yakking in the comments panel by panel now. 😛
Panel 1: Awww, to the hand holding. Cerberus is right, it does kinda look like a prayer! What gets me is the expressions though. They are both overflowing with lust. But you can see in Leslie’s eyes she really already knows this won’t work. And that sucks. For someone to put so much time and effort into coming in to their own and losing so much affection from her family, church friends, etc. wanting a relationship so bad but already knowing it’d be doomed has to STING.
And Robin…..Robin’s face here just tells me she fundamentally Does Not Get It. She thinks this is going somewhere sexy and she kind of wants it to (even though she might not admit that to herself). She thinks this is a hot moment here – not the moment Leslie is letting go and moving on. It’s almost sad, but she really does not deserve Leslie after shitting on her and people like her almost her entire time in office. At this point, she’s been told by at least three different people that her policies are harming people directly. At this point, she is not ignorant. She can understand – she just does not want to understand. And that is the point where Leslie has had enough – she’s gone above and beyond her bit. Now she can’t help her. It’s up to Robin now and we’ll see how that goes. My emotions are optimistic, but my brain is having doubts.
Panel 2: Note the lack of blush on Leslie’s face – she has officially snapped out of it. Common sense vs libido – victory common sense. She knows this is not going to be a thing, and certainly not the healthy relationship she wants. Robin is still misunderstanding where this is going – she’s got her open mouth and that blush is intense. I’m thinking she’s hoping for something veeeery different than what is going down.
Panel 3: Oh, Leslie. Ouch. That one hurt. She’s right though – Robin is not just harming herself. She’s harming others, especially vulnerable LGBT+ populations, like the disabled, young people, people of colour who already get shat on, etc. Robin needs to change or those people are screwed. Especially in this political climate. I like the touch of her taking Robin’s glasses that she used to appear smart. She knows Robin is a faker who puts on whatever face she finds convenient. So taking those glasses is a really cool visual shorthand for her point – you don’t need this fake shit. Be yourself. And I would like to note here that Robin’s district goes back and forth between the parties constantly, so she she actually DOESN’T need to be a bigot to be electable. Which makes her even worse morally speaking, what the FUCK Robin?
And Robin’s face – she’s finally cottoning on that this isn’t going to end the way she wants it to. She is not going to get the hot lady time that could end up a hideously bad scandal on tv. She is not going to get ‘her lesbian’ this go-around. She’s hurt Leslie and she doesn’t know how deeply and she’s not sure how this makes her feel but she does not like it.
Panel 4: Okay, irrelevant commentoid first – Leslie’s outfit is SO PRETTY. She looks great! I love it. On to the meat of this panel – I really love it. You can see just how heartbreaking this is for Leslie, who desperately wants her idyllic lesbian family life but is yet again robbed of affection and happiness by other folk’s bigotry. I like the distance between them too. She looks very alone and very upset.
I like Robin in the background, looking kind of blank. You can see the wheels are turning in her head, trying to decide how to react to this. She’s surprised how this is going, and seems…kinda alarmed (it’s her mouth expression and how wide her eyes are). Like, no, pretty lady, don’t leave, we were about to have emotionally unhealthy but politically charged lady loving! Nope, not this time Robin. But she’s definitely trying to process how this is going. She is unsure how to react to this.
Panel 5: And despite herself, Leslie looks back. Maybe hoping Robin had a last minute epiphany. And that hurts me – she looks so curious and maybe very cautiously hopeful. She wants Robin to change so much. But then you look at her mouth – it’s very different from her eyes. Her mouth is neutral and harder – she very well knows this won’t be the epiphany she wants to hear, but she’s looking to hear Robin out anyways.
Panel 6: Aaaaand, politician Robin is back. When called to process the unpleasant and unfamiliar, she falls back on to her carefully constructed politician lady. Asking for votes – even a touch of whacky Robin with her big smile and the finger pointing. She’s cool, she’s a rad congress lady, what seriousness? There’s no seriousness in Robinville. Seriousness means sad things and pain and oh god maybe someone leaving or tearing down relationships, let’s not do that, avoid, obfuscate, point to something weird or fun, oh hey I can be weird and fun, hahaha, this is a joke, see me joking, I’m not having any serious thoughts at all. Shame her eyes are telling on her, with the half twitch/half wrinkles on the left eye. Oh, Robin, you tried.
Panel 7: OUCH, Leslie. That face. She looks annoyed, and kinda like she wants to say something a lot more biting than what she actually says. And justifiably so! She just went out and poured her heart out to Robin trying to make her understand why she fucked up and how she’s hurting people only to get what looks like a failed, ignored epiphany, homophobic apologism and victim blaming spewed at her for the fifty millionth time, and a joke. Not even a good one either. And overall? She is tired. She’s tired of dealing with Robin, she’s tired of the failed epiphanies and how painful they are, and she is utterly exhausted by the homophobic fucknuts who just will not understand no matter how patient she is. And after at least three people have told her in detail why she’s hurting people? No, that’s not ‘she might not get it’ – no, she either refuses to get it or she simply does not care. And those are the kinds of people where it is best to give up – you can’t help people who refuse to learn. Robin made her bed, but it’s LGBT+ folks who will have to lay in it. And until Robin understands that, there is no chance at all for healthy relationships between them and Leslie is accepting that even though it slaps everything she’s wanted for herself in the face. Poor Leslie.
Panel 8: I love her expression here! It perfectly conveys ‘what the ever loving heck were you thinking asking me that? Of course not!’. And yeah, Robin, no, you do not get to piss on people and then act surprised when they tell you it isn’t raining and refuse to step underneath you to make it easier. What the hell?
I am so proud of Leslie here – this had to hurt. But she recognized it was unhealthy, not doing the good she wanted it to, and she cannot affect Robin further here, so she’s letting go, walking away, and making it clear she is not supporting Robin. This is not a good relationship to pursue and, for now at least, Leslie wants no part of it. Good for her.
Shouldn’t you take a coin from Cerberus hand or something to prove your mastership in the art of Very Long Comments? 🙂
Anyway, great analysis. I really agree on how wonderful the metaphor with the glasses is. You can’t hide behind your false smart glass now, Robin. Time to be yourself.
And Leslie desperately, DESPERATELY wants it to work. But she knows it won’t. 🙁
Ohhhhh I was like this long before I started reading her well crafted webcomic thoughts – I’m chatty. She just gave me an excuse to start doing so here.
Thank you! The expressions and the metaphor with the glasses are great – sometimes its what’s left unsaid that’s as deep as what’s said, especially in visual formats like comics.
I knoooooooowwwww. Leslie, please, I beg you, go find a lesbian group nearby!
I absolutely love how much Willis packs not only into the words, but the art as well, often in ways which reward careful reading (like having looks between characters foreshadow connection or future plotlines).
It’s a style that really rewards diving deep into a work and mining out its guts.
I am just going to take this moment to say DAMN YOU BBCC for making thoughtful comic responses! How are people going to pay attention to me when you write things like this?!?!?!
You made me have feels by introducing me to Always Human. Therefore, I am stealing some of your attention. 😛 Ideally, this will lower your approval rating and hopefully force you to abdicate your internet throne.
Now, I don’t know if you’ve noticed (you might be new around here), but “ungovernable subjects” doesn’t half begin to describe that place. Or quarter. Or centi. Or nano.
What I’m saying is, you’ll probably need to step up your petty game a notch. My “amount of revolts” counter spins faster than McDonald’s “burgers sold” counter.
Pffft, as if I ever venture into those places personally. What do you think I have dungeon prisoners, ehh, I mean, unpaid labour forces, no wait, “highly paid and motivated individuals” for?
Yeah, that’s Robin – A total lack of self-awareness and a complete inability (and possibly unwillingness) to understand anything that does not personally interest her that is so great it become horrifically funny. I’m betting that, if I sat down with her now and asked her what Leslie was talking about she’d dismiss it as “something about charities or homeless persons policies; I’m sure Freida will tell me if any of it is important.”
Unlikely. Frieda doesn’t actually work with Robin all the time – she just met her yesterday! She works student outreach for her campaign. Kyle would probably be the one to tell her, if anyone.
She would, but she’d be lying. That would be the fake persona again. She likely doesn’t understand and she’s certainly not going to talk to anyone else about it, but she’s been affected. That persona’s all defense mechanism.
This isn’t over. We’ll see Robin again and we’ll see the repercussions of this night.
There was an incident with overuse of “bongo” that prompted the filter. I’m sure if there was a outbreak of calling some character a whore it would also get dealt with.
To me, Leslie’s expression in panels 7 and 8 say “Oh for cryin’ out loud! I’ve been talking to myself all evening, haven’t I?”
That’s one of the downsides to Robin. She’s so self-absorbed that, no matter what you say, she’ll ultimately steer it back to her and what she wants. In this case: a vote and possibly even an endorsement.
That’s Robin retreating back into “wacky Robin” mode for cover. As Bagge said above, she called out to Leslie because she desperately wanted her to come back, to stay, but then couldn’t actually bring herself to make that kind of admission.
So she falls back on the safe, political cover and is probably kicking herself inside.
And honestly, that shouldn’t be a surprise – for anyone. Coming out is hard, even, or especially, to yourself. Even worse when it will destroy your career and make you face horrible things you’ve done. Not easy to do. Not going to happen in one “date”, however much you like the professor.
Seeds have been sown though, we’ll see what kind of crop has grown when Robin shows up again.
I hope she doesn’t show up again. I don’t care about this character arc, I don’t care about this shitty trope and I’m sick of watching her make Leslie feel like shit.
Totally Off-Topic: Someone drove a large truck through a Berlin Christmas Market yesterday evening, leaving 12 dead and 50 hurt. And the fascists are having a field day accusing Merkel of being responsible “because she let in the refugees”.
When it comes to dismantling democracy, IS and right-wingers work hand-in-hand.
Also, shit, shits, shit!!!!
How far “right” does someone have to be, to be a “right winger” in this equation? It sounds like you’re talking about fascists and “race warriors”, but somehow when the “right wingers are monsters and idiots” discussions start, it pretty quickly broadens to “anyone to the right of HERE is a racist sexist pig”.
It would be a lot better if we could ditch the whole “right vs left” false dichotomy entirely — it ignores variations and nuance. A western-European-style “social democrat” is an entirely different thing from a Huge Chavez sort, and a libertarian is a very different beast from a fascist.
Someone who supports a political party that wants to do away with democracy (some of their members are talking about starting a civil war to get Merkel out of office), they yell about “the lying press” all the time, they say they are afraid of women having to wear a burka in Germany and who wanted the Bundeswehr to shoot a refugees at the border to keep them out. The kind that throw fire-bombs into refugee homes and thinks this makes them freedom-fighters or those who just chear them on.
Those kinds of right-wingers.
…not to forget all those who are only too happy to eventually have a group of people they can blame everything bad on. (And I’m asking myself: if they actually would manage to drive refugees out of the country, how long would it take them to realize that this didn’t make anything better, and what marginalized group will they pick as the next scapegoats?)
Thank you for a rational response, clarifying your point.
It sounded like that’s what you meant, but there’s an agenda forwardrd by certain people to conflate anyone “to the right” of, oh, Bernie Sanders, with the various sorts of fascist and racist pigs, tinfoil hat wingnuts, etc.
A) “Right-wingers” has been an epithet meaning the far-right for a long time now. People don’t usually say “right-wingers” when they mean moderate Republicans who love gay marriage and rebel against the party when they are being super racist.
B) Have you been paying attention? The modern right has been demanding a party discipline with an increasingly extreme worldview of extreme bigotry and while CJ is lamenting the political situation in Germany, we’ve just seen an election in the US and that has been echoed and preceded by votes in UK and in other countries, wherein the choice was between virulent bigotry and moderatism and the right-leaning public went all in on intense bigotry even to the point of not even blinking when literal neo-nazis started joining their movement en masse and defending them in thinkpieces.
So, it’s not even remotely CJ’s point, what you are claiming CJ is trying to imply, but if CJ were to make that point, CJ would have one hell of a leg to stand on. In the current elections in a lot of western countries, right-leaning right now means more comfortable with literal fascists than with the existence of Islamic refugees, trans people, or women having rights. And a lot of the stated policies of right-leaning groups are mostly openly bigoted (in that for all their flowery language, their sole purpose is to harm marginalized folks and make their lives harder to live)*.
*http://www.statesman.com/news/state–regional-govt–politics/dan-patrick-legislative-priority-keeping-men-out-ladies-rooms/cmXy5mL9AzDN8pZ5vYJZcO/ for only one example.
C) As CJ clarified, the focus of “right-wingers” is literal neo-nazis and other anti-Islamic bigots who have been committing literal hate crimes against desperate at-need populations. So, you can drop the “all right-wing lives” malarky.
D) You’ve been making these paeans about how you are the enlightened moderate and “both sides”, which gotta say, is somewhat rich after this last American election where “both sides” malarky was used to help elect a literal fascist who reads Mein Kampf for fun and who employs white supremacist advisors who transparently float the idea of bringing back camps for the undesirables and whose election has reinvigorated actual nazi-salutin’ fascists who get their jollies “joking” about death camps on the internet.
And a cynical woman might suspect this may have more to do with cleansing your conscience as a libertarian who is slowly realizing how many “libertarian” minded people in this country are actually literally fascist or at least fascist-sympathizing (and no, I don’t mean in a libertarians are all secretly fascist way, I mean in a white supremacists and neo-nazis have been directly recruiting in libertarian rich spaces, stoking white male resentment to try and radicalize the nascent sexism and racism of modern libertarian movements to try and sell an ideology of outright eliminationism).
And well, to that I say, look at the timing and circumstances and target of your campaign. Is the real problem liberals scared of rising fascism in the West? Or is it right-leaning organizations and voters becoming more and more comfortable letting literal nazis frolic and play with their organizations.
No, and I know from statistics that they’ve been less common than right-wing extremist violence for a long while now. The lack of true equivalence was my point, sorry for not being clear.
You’re not entirely wrong there, one “side” here has sold its soul to evil to ensure victory over the other.
But if the approach over the next four years is to scream “idiot” and “bigot” and “ignorant pig” at everyone who voted for The Donald… if there’s no effort to understand why almost half of the Americans who voted, voted for The Donald (and NO, it’s NOT “they’re all racists and bigots and closet fascists)… if there’s no effort to understand why Clinton received significantly fewer votes than Obama did in 2008 against a much less vile and disturbing opponent… if people who are opposed to The Donald aren’t willing to take a cold, hard look at the facts…
… then we’re going to be right back here in December of 2020.
Well, any real dissection of 2016 is going to have to grapple with the fact that for a considerable portion of the electorate, the bigotry was the selling point.
For some people, what matters more than the economy, human rights, jobs, and so on, is the idea of “getting back at the uppity (slurs)” and we saw that on display. For a higher and higher part of America, nothing matters more than making marginalized groups suffer and blaming them for everything that is unsatisfying about ones own life.
And trying to engage about “economic insecurity” and so on will continue to be unsuccessful without accepting the elephant in the room.
Acknowledging that bigotry was a crucial part of this election means tackling that head on. It means fighting the bigoted systems that depress voter turnout. It means protecting marginalized citizens who are going to be targeted and die in the next X years. It means not giving up on forward progress because of an incorrect belief that bigots will somehow be satisfied with a certain amount of blood and won’t push for more.
And it means shutting down the pipeline of recruitment to white nationalism and nazism, treating abuse as what it is, and pushing back hard until all the people who found it easy to be bigots see exactly who they are hurting and how.
Hillary Clinton won the popular vote. She won by as much as Obama, but systems of disenfranchisement worked to flip enough battleground states just enough for Trump to win. That means Clinton’s messages resonate, but there are institutional barriers put in place to make that resonation meaningless. To make the votes of millions of Americans meaningless or non-existent.
It is not a call for all the marginalized groups to crawl into a hole and stop sharing their experiences and the pain these bigoted votes and laws cause.
And that is what this whole arc with Leslie is about.
In your estimation, what percentage of those who voted for The Donald considered the bigotry an actual selling point?
How many just didn’t care?
How many kept telling themselves “he’s just saying that to get elected?”
How many didn’t follow the news closely enough to realize how bad it way?
How many knew, and swallowed it as a bitter pill because something else was more important?
Again, this isn’t a defense of The Donald, or trying to make voting for him out to be a neutral action when he’s about as vile as a human being can get.
I’m simply more interested in understanding what I’m really up against when it comes time for the full court press to remove him, than in feeding the problem. This time, I voted for Clinton (ugh) and made it clear to people I know why they shouldn’t vote for The Donald. Next time, I’m doing a lot more. Hopefully the Democratic party gives people a candidate that’s not a caricature of everything about the party that turns so many American voters off.
For the record: Next time starts now. There are elections in 2018, if not local elections sooner. Forget 2020 and the next presidential race for now.
Learn about your local candidates, your Congressional slate and your state representatives. There’s work to be done there that may be able to blunt some of the damage.
Getting Democrats (and Dem-leaning independents) to turn out in non-Presidential years would change the country.
And contact your Congresscritters. Push them to fight Trump and the worst of what the Republican party has planned for us. It may not seem like it, but it does help. It does matter.
So, that’s the vast majority of his supporters being open about their bigotry being a major driving point. So for that remaining 10-30%, it comes down to a lot of passive bigotry. Certainly enough to ignore the million and a half warning signs he came with and the vileness of his stated policies, as you note.
It’s definitely a sobering situation.
The positives though is that this is probably only about 27% or so of the population based on the Alan Keyes test, it’s just this 27% of the population has a much more supported right to vote than the rest of the population and more of a feeling that their vote matters because of politicians constantly courting them and saying that they are the “Real America”.
It’s of note that that poll was conducted 1 week after the Brussels bombings, and 4 months after terrorists with ties to Brussels perpetrators killed 130 people in Paris.
I wonder what results would come from that same poll today.
It doesn’t matter when it was – what matters is that at a given point in time, 70-90% of his supporters considered Islamophobia a selling point. If they’ve since changed their minds, great, but they did consider it a selling point and they need to acknowledge and accept what that means.
For the ten millionth time, voting for Trump was inherently a bigoted action. He didn’t start exploding bigotry after he was elected. There was no bait and switch. If they weren’t paying attention, that’s on them for not researching their candidate.
Again, “I don’t personally want you to die, but X matters more to me than your lives and civil rights’ is not actually better than ‘I want you to die.”
From the googling, it’s been pretty comfortably in that range, as has been the support for the wall between the US and Mexico which is similarly based in cartoonish levels of bigotry.
Policy polls in September and August cite numbers in the 70s for those, again fairly consistently.
So, it’s a key part of the support if not the main draw entirely.
I would argue you’re equating two separate things. One is what can be done to put up a better show against people like Trump. For instance it’s not true Clinton didn’t offer anything the middle class, that was something built up by biased outlets, but she could have shown herself less in favor of things like the TPP and more aligned with traditional allies like unions. That might have helped get her numbers closer to what the Democratic party have had in the past, and really, a lot of it is stuff they should be doing anyway.
The other thing is what actually earned Trump his support. As people have said, the data out there shows that really is largely bigotry and ignorance, and that’s especially true of how he won the primary. It’s not a question of screaming “idiot” and “bigot”, it’s a question of understanding what happened. Enough people already insisted on pretending bigotry could not possibly motivate a lot of the electorate, and that left them unprepared for the results of it doing so. We need to keep our eyes open to it.
I didn’t accuse CJ of saying anything of the sort, I asked a question AND followed it up by saying “it sounds like you’re talking about extremists and monsters” (paraphrasing myself a bit).
It’s not just here, that I’ve been trying very hard to get people to stop chalking Trump’s victory up to a simplified, smug narrative of “racists, rednecks, and ignorance”. It’s a self-serving, sour-grapes narrative that takes a small part of the story and turns into “The Truth”.
I’m not saying “we need to respect both sides” or “all opinions are valid” — quite the opposite, I’ve been trying to get people to realize that “both” sides share in the *blame* here. The Clinton campaign, the DNC, and the overall “American Left” played their own parts in this disturbing turn of events. They presumed victory in key states, ignored large chunks of the electorate, ran a mechanical and calculating campaign, etc.
I’m not saying that the problem is “fear of rising fascism”. I’m saying that if people keeping lumping everyone “to the right” of themselves into a single category and calling them all racists and facists and whatnot, then they’re making things worse.
People who aren’t racists aren’t going to vote for you if you keep calling them racists, or “racists by association”. People who aren’t fascists aren’t going to vote for you if you keep calling them fascists, or “fascists by association”. Insulting and demeaning people won’t motivate them to vote for you.
“Divide and conquer” has been the methodology of “the right” AND “the left” in the US.
Maybe I’m screaming into the wind, here. The “American left” has spent the last 30+ years convincing people that their interests are completely defined by their “identity”, and now the fringe “far-right” has latched onto that bullshit and is running with it, using the same siren-song to draw in disaffected and despairing voters If you spend all that effort convincing people that their interests are defined by their skin color (or whatever), don’t be shocked if they start listening.
Yeah, see your point gets somewhat diluted by you echoing the right-wing talking points about ‘identity politics”.
Cause, here’s the cold, hard, reality of that. My backing trans rights isn’t out of fealty to an accident of birth, but a recognition on the very real way being trans makes my life literally harder to live than if I was cis. And not in a “oh, ho hum, sort of way, but in a ‘I’m disowned, nearly ended up homeless, and have narrowly avoided being murdered several times'”.
White power and men’s rights groups co-opting that idea to justify a supremacist worldview that has defined this country since its literal inception (Grand Compromise anyone?) over an identity that literally defines itself in its avoidance of traits that are considered the “other”, in trying to avoid being seen as “too ethnic” or “too feminine”, does not disprove the value of abused and marginalized trying to group together so someone can stitch back together the wounds when they get beat by the first groups.
And this idea that the only way through is to never ever call out the bigotry of groups who are literally creaming their pants at the idea of us suffering and dying. Who get off on our misery, is bullshit. Is the idea that a power structure that only keeps itself in place with mass disenfranchisement and centuries old systems enshrined by literal slavers is somehow more worthy because of being white.
That the active recruitment and radicalization of dominant identity folks by literal hate movements is somehow the fault of their victims for daring to note how often they are getting hit.
So yeah, to bring it back to the comic, it’s not on Leslie to save Robin and her supporters, not on Carla to personally make Mary less of an active bigot, not on Sal to hand-hold all the white people and tell them it’s okay she’s willing to ignore all the racist microaggressions she’s been dealing with all her life.
And frankly, if people are openly willing to vote for a child-raping fascist simply because he hates minorities and women enough, then they are bigots. Them being more of the population that is allowed to vote doesn’t make them right anymore than the majority of the population thinking trans people are secret molesters waiting to rape kids in the bathrooms are right.
Also, minor aside. But what the fuck is up with this year and all the conservative and moderate assholes thinking winning an election means all the minority groups clamoring for their rights now have to shut up forever.
Like, um, sorry, no, even if you murder us, we still exist. We’re still going to exist in the margins and we’re still going to speak on behalf of our humanity because we have no choice.
It’s a dangerously frightening worldview, because too many damn people are of the mindset that this election was supposed to make all the marginalized people up and hide in the margins silent and still and disappear away from where they have to see us and I worry about what they’ve stated as their follow-up when this fantasy of theirs continues not to happen because it is impossible.
Like, it would not be the first time in our history, where we tried to eliminate a group of people off the planet out of sight and out of mind because they were inconvenient to our worldview of a dominant-group only society.
But they’ve got to do it politely, right?
No talk of racism or sexism or any other bigotry. Even when they ban Muslim refugees or send the gays to conversion therapy camps. Or just keep shooting black men down in the streets. Got to stay civil and not risk offending anyone.
I can’t reply directly to thejeff below, so this will have to do.
Depends on what you mean by “polite”.
Demanding justice for innocent people gunned down by overzealous, callous, and/or racist police officers? Good. Demanding reform of law enforcement and the judicial system? Good. Making bad cops accountable for their actions and getting them off the streets and off the force? Good. Demanding it over and over until things change? Good.
Calling all police racists and chanting “pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon” when someone guns down a random officer? That’s where people lose my support and my sympathy, and can STFU. Someone in my immediate family is a police officer, and the thought of them being randomly gunned down by some jackass out for “justice” chills me to the bone.
Reserve accusations of racism and bigotry… for people of actual racist and bigoted intent. Prejudice is prejudice, and a broad brush is the enemy of justice no matter who it’s painting.
I’m of the position that we should treat everyone decently and respectfully because it’s the right thing to do, because it’s fair, because it’s the kind of world I want to live in. And being an ass for superficial reasons to random people is actually more work.
And frankly, if people are openly willing to vote for a child-raping fascist simply because he hates minorities and women enough, then they are bigots.
The problem there is assuming that they voted for him because he hates minorities and women (or thinks nothing of playing to those who do)… rather than for some other reason in spite of it or while ignoring it.
That’s not to say that they were right to vote for him, but rather to say understanding why they voted for him is more productive to getting them to vote for someone else in 4 years, than just broad-brushing them all as bigots and dismissing them.
They either voted for him because of that or because that wasn’t even remotely enough of a turn-off.
And this election is a really good barometer because almost all of Trump’s stated policies are about hurting minorities. And he’s barely dropped any of his support now that he’s trotting out the worst of crony capitalism to run all his departments.
It’s not economic insecurity that drove the majority of voters, it’s bigotry, tribal loyalty, or folks who were deluded and were only too happy to ignore all the nazis crowing about their man because they, for completely non-bigoted reasons, of course, decided that a woman was just inherently untrustworthy or those Mexicans really are shifty seeming.
And I’m not really in a mood to be all that forgiving of Trump voters who looked at his plans for me and mine, the fear in our eyes, and thought that was appealing as all hell or easily ignorable because something something Jesus.
Treating people fair means acknowledging when they fuck up. Trying to ignore the fuck ups because we want to think well of folks who mean us harm means accepting abuse and viewing your own life and worth as less than the feelings of your oppressors.
I’m not judging them on their identity, I’m judging them on their actions. Voting is an action. An action that has real consequences.
And their actions are hostile to me and mine and bigoted.
Good people can do bigoted things sometimes. It’s part of fucking up and growing up. But it takes acknowledging that bigotry is a fuck-up to begin with.
The very best you can say is that his voters looked at the sexism and racism and homophobia and religious bigotry and said “That’s not bad enough to stop me. It’s less important than whatever it is I like about him.”
Once again, if you considered Trump’s promises to actively assault on the safety of marginalized groups to be in any way something you were willing to tolerate then you are at best a bigot by way of apathy for our well being and our human rights. There is no way I can look at a Trump supporter and not judge them to be either a bigot or irresponsibly uninformed or both.
And the crap they were fed from Hillary mostly came direct from Trump or other unmistakably awful shits like him.
Even the people who saw both as equally bad looked at a hateful conman who can’t even win graciously, much less show respect to anyone not actively kissing his ass, and then they looked at a qualified, experienced woman who is a bit dry and not terribly exciting to listen to, but who actually seems to know and care about what she’s doing, and doesn’t think “preparing for a debate” is a weird, underhanded thing to do.
Then, they decided “I believe the horrible things I hear about Hillary, all of those bad things I hear about the rapist must be lies!”
“A libertarian is a very different beast from a fascist”
No. No, they are not. Their motivations are different, but libertarians just helped put into power a fascist government in the USA. They have stood with the KKK quite directly (You can thank Thiel for that. ‘But he’s a crony capitalist!’ yes, a libertarian, I know.) . This fucking handwringing is asinine at this point. Libertarians may not specifically want me dead, but they don’t give two fucking shiny pennies about whether I die or not, so long as their precious, and harmful, classist policy gets put into place. If Libertarians want to be treated differently, they shouldn’t fucking sleep with the fascists.
Yeah, there’s not much a difference from ‘I want you dead’ and ‘I don’t personally want you dead, but I am going to ally myself with these people who do and not say ‘boo’ about it’. Certainly not as much as people seem to think.
I can’t argue with you *entirely* on that… there’s a reason I won’t join the big-L Libertarian party, and I don’t call myself a Libertarian.
There are unfortunately too many people hiding under that banner who aren’t libertarians at all, or who cling to libertarian talking points for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual political philopsophy, and are using legitimate minarchist theory as a smokescreen for “I want to treat other people like crap on the bottom of my shoe, and it’s not right that you try to stop me”.
When I said “libertarian”, I meant actual libertarian, the actual political philosophy, and not other people who use the term for cover.
Conflating genuine libertarianism with actual fascism, is the same as trying to make the entirety of the “left” out to be closet Stalinists.
There are also an awful lot of libertarians I’ve heard making the claim that they aren’t themselves bigots and wouldn’t do those horrible prejudiced things, but that having the federal government interfere and stop them is even worse. Often focused on the 60s Civil Rights Movement and state’s rights. Often with patina of “market forces would have fixed it soon”, like they hadn’t for decades.
Whether that’s just cover for actual hatred of minorities, just lack of concern for what happens to them or real naivete, I don’t really care.
Interestingly enough, the movement we think of as Libertarians in a modern sense (certainly the group that actively recruits online under that name) really got their start in the Segregation movement, adapting the fig leaf of “state’s rights” into a general anti-federal government argument.
Hence why the movement is so frickin’ white and why so few in the movement speak out about issues like disenfranchisement of felons.
Like there’s earlier Randian roots they co-opted, but a lot of its surge in popularity was a direct result of wanting to intellectualize the argument against integration. Hence why so much of the backlash against “government intrusion” always seems to focus on things like hate crime laws or non-discrimination laws rather than actual civil-rights abuses.
While I sympathize with their minarchist sentiments, what the minimum functional/ethical amount of government is, is a far more complex question than they seem willing to deal with.
Power concentrates unto itself whether there’s government or not, and I would say that one of the legitimate functions of government is not to be a whore to other concentrations of power, but to be a counter to them. Corporations, unions, interest groups… government should be standing in opposition to anything that tries to dominate the individual.
Government must be the bastion of justice, and part of justice is fairness and equality of opportunity. When someone has their boot on the throat of another, government must step in.
I take “niceties” like “by the people, for the people, and of the people”… “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”… “one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all”… as the serious and solemn duties of our government.
Federal overreach IS sometimes a problem (will avoid tangent on the details), but yeah, for the most part “states’ rights” has been and is a smokescreen for some pretty vile agendas.
The “states’ rights” thing seems to ignore that for many years before the ACW, it was the slave states arguing AGAINST state’s rights, as they pushed the federal government to enforce fugitive slave laws across state lines and punish northern state and local governments that either ignored or undermined those federal laws. It’s just shuffling the argument around depending on whether the federal government is backing them up or slapping them down — same as with the whole “activist judges” thing.
The platonic ideal of libertarianism doesn’t really mean anythign to me, as someone who has to live in the real world and not a cave of concepts. The reality on the ground for Libertarianism is, its adherents would rather bed with Nazis to get their policies in place, than see them not receive them. The reality on the ground is that the concept of an invasive state is a polite fiction that is only respected when it gets in the way of their business ambitions – an invasive state that would imprison or kill people matters less. They generally want to destroy government interference that ensures equality of opportunity. Whether they ‘should’ or ‘shouldnt’ to be libertarians is literally not my problem. I don’t really care whether they’re ‘bad libertarians’, anymore than I honestly care whether fundamentalists who argue to restrict the rights of gay people are ‘bad Christians’.
Like, maybe they are, but what does that mean to me? I am not really concerned with their status as Libertarians in Good Standing. That’s their problem. And again, there is no closet here. They stood with fascists. This /happened/. I’m not ‘guessing about their real beliefs’. I don’t really care what their little heart of hearts has to say. I care about what they do. And what they /did/ was vote for fascists. Fascists who announced their intention in advance. Fascists who boldly stated they were not only going to destroy ‘federal overreach’ in reducing racist bullshittery, but that they were going to enact ‘federal overreach’ to commit racist actions.
What I find interesting about politics is the perception of it all, for example I vote National (in NZ) and currently National is considred center right however if National were a political party in the USA it’d be certainly be to the left of the Democrats
Canada’s conservative party last election would generally be to the left of the Republicans too – in the sense that Harper had given up on ending same gender marriage and abortion because Canada had been very clear they wanted those things (though some of his party is now trying to campaign it back) and didn’t argue against socialized health care (though he was shitty about it).
The us being so far to the right of other developed countries that its left registers as center right is a deliberate tactic invented by by Carl rove called “shifting the overton window”
Obama, in any sane country, would be center right, and that’s how he seems to me.
It also doesn’t help that the Clintons are actually pretty conservative, all things considered, and have been a powerful voice and influence on the left for 30-40 years.
Huh, I didn’t think my comment would start so large a discussion.
Actually, the thing that occupies my thoughts most ist actually, how one can get through to people like those who voted for Trump. Watching the Brexit and US elections was scary, because they seemed like a real life explanation of how Hitler came to power. German history book newer really explained how suddenly, after the freedom of the roaring twenties, so many people voted for a guy that openly pronounced his aims.
If we do not manage to get through to people who are basicly a little bigoted but not so much you would think of that as their defining attribute when they were, say, your collegues at work, we do not do our best to avoid fascists coming to power.
People do not really care for stuff that doesn’t resonate with their lives. So in what politicians say they only hear what makes sense to them. Populists manage to resonate by appealing to emotions and, frankly said, guiding by fear and “feeling more worthy”. Stupid intellectuals like me have trouble reaching people, we “don’t care enough” because with think, we check facts, we look at resonating people’s fears as immoral and want them to think, not react. We accept that any answer is emergent and this does not resonate well at all with people who just want someone “to make their life safe again” (someone in a forum actually said that). They do not want to hear that there is no way to ensure 100% that no one steals a truck and runs it into a lot of people. They do not want to hear that the risk of dying by falling in your own home is 20 times more likely to happen than being murdered (in Germany) – the most prevalent causes of death are cancer and cardiac diseases, which is 300 times more likely – and that even with IS actively recruiting stupid people to kill here, it’s much more likely to die in a normal car accident.
And so they listen to the snake oil sellers who promise them safety (no matter how or that the proposed method has already been tried without success). If we do not find a method to counter this, snake oil sellers will win elections.
In comic, we just saw Leslie try and fail to get a result. And she tried it on the snake oil seller’s apprentice.
A possible next step in this arc is that Robin starts a crusade in her campaign, trying to root out Ryan (or, as she doesn’t know his name, the ‘date rapist’). Of course, there is always the suspicion hanging in the air that she’s doing this in an attempt to impress Leslie rather than any personal desire to clean house.
So I’m guessing Robin is one of those “I refuse to come to terms with my sexuality so I’m going to deny it by being incredibly homophobic” type of people.
Nah. I mean, she’s doing homophobic shit, but she doesn’t actually care about it, which bucks the stereotype entirely. She just didn’t care and wanted to be elected. And she lives where that’s what you do to be elected.
Like none of that is actually a good thing, but it bucks the stereotype since she’s not doing homophobic shit to cover for the fact that she’d like to fuck Leslie, she’s doing it because elections.
Leslie’s frustration here is just palpable. The knowledge that the person you were talking to about very emotional topics did not hear a single thing you said is maddening and soul-crushing. And she’s making the right call, Robin’s not worth her attention in this universe.
Maybe. If she stops saying the harmful shit she’s been saying. If she stops doing the harmful shit she’s doing. But Leslie’s self respect seems to have won.
I think it is very possible for Robin to do that, she seems to be more naive than outright bigoted and it seems she believes either the situation for gay people nor the homeless is as bad as it is and that people can suppress or substitute their sexuality like she can (even though she is only fooling herself). It may take time and some crucial events to happen but I certainly think Robin can grow into a respectable person worthy of Leslie’s love and not so toxic, at least I hope she can
Just because Robin likes Leslie doesn’t mean she’s likes women in general. It seems like Leslie has never heard of heteroflexible – one-offs can happen.
But its much more likely that Robin is bi with the main focus being on men.
Robin has said before she is not straight with an exception (which seems to match your definition of heteroflexible) in Shortpacked! and sexual orientations stay the same, so we’re going off that.
Robin said several different things about that, with a lot of denial involved. The last thing she said was that she was “kinda indefinably queer?” So that’s the most accurate answer we’ve ever gotten from her
If you guys like long comments like Cerberus does, and you’re interested in Star Trek or in someone’s first reaction to shows he’s never seen (due to a repressive childhood) or books he’s never read, you should check into Mark Reads or Mark Watches.
As a bonus, he did the Twilight books and ripped them apart, which is how I got to know him. But now he does stuff that his audience knows he’ll like.
I used to follow his stuff religiously and then I just sort of stopped a few years back and I can’t for the life of me remember why. Maybe just a lack of time.
Well done Leslie. I’m so glad we don’t have re-run of the Leslie as doormat again (at least I hope it won’t go that way)
One of the tropes I’ve always disliked is the one where if someone loves someone enough and waits around long enough then there’ll be a happy ending which to me seems quite unhealthy
Cause that trope is everywhere. The idea of the person whose love saves the violent and hateful person. And in reality, what usually happens is the person who thinks their love can “save” the other person just ends up getting abused and beaten down.
And even when the person they love isn’t evil or abusive or violent… even when that person just doesn’t feel the same way and very very probably never will…
…it’s still nothing but heartache and disappointment and frustration.
i don’t think Belle loved Beast until after he started getting his shit together. she stubbornly refused to be anything but herself, he gradually fell in love with her, started trying to behave better because he cared instead of just cuz he needed her, and only then did she start to fall for him. they could only get together after he decided her needs were more important than his own. (or rather, as important? and that he had no right to *demand* she sacrifice her needs, while he could *choose* to sacrifice his.)
I hope Robin loses. Not because of her politics (well, at least not primarily for her politics), but so she can come back to Leslie, no pressure. I still want them to happen, damnit!
Shame it’s because her politics were awful that she was elected in the first place, it sets a standard for what the average voter in that area is like and why Robin is having such a hard time admitting her sexuality.
Which is weird cuz that district is actually back and forth between the two parties, so her seat isn’t actually as safe with ‘family values’ stuff as she might think.
Doubt it, changing her policies to support gays is a kiss of death for her political career. She based her entire campaign around the idea of traditional families which is why her own sister make a sex tape was a political move. Unfortunately the majority of voters around her area are bigots but they’re the ones that keep her in office.
To change herself to keep Leslie happy is shooting herself in the foot, though I still want it to happen. I hope she loses so she has no need to keep up the charade.
Not changing herself to keep Leslie happy; changing herself because she’s decided that being someone that Leslie can respect and support makes her a better person, and she’d rather be a better person than be a Congresswoman.
And I’d like to see her make that decision when it’s actually meaningful, not after she’s lost despite choosing to be evil.
And ideally, I’d like to see her make the decision to be good, accepting that it will likely cost her her seat in Congress, and then win not despite but because of that, by picking up enough non-evil votes to offset the evil ones she’d lose. It’s not impossible; in real life, Robin’s district flip-flops between the parties pretty regularly.
Her politics make more people miserable than her love life. Win or lose, it should be on her politics. The problems of two people don’t amount to a hill of beans.
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“Can I count on you buying my fundraiser swimsuit calendar?”
“I’LL TAKE FIFTY.”
Perfect time to bust out the Princess Leia costume!
Damn, you beat everyone else by a week. Nice one.
Awww, the ship has sailed.
And Leslie just turned down a great opportunity to mess up Robin’s campaign.
I mean, think about it.
Taking her glasses might have messed it up plenty already.
“I used to like that deSanto candidate, but she just doesn’t look smart any longer. Dunno what happened.”
Is she superman now?
NO
NO
We’re supposed to be encouraging Leslie away from the bad decisions
The heck you say. When was this decided?
There MUST be a suitably silly silver age superman story where Clark Kent’s glasses break and he desperately avoids his coworkers so they wont’ recognize him as Superman.
A hat works just as well in a pinch, in most continuities.
In all the others he can fix the glasses with some superreptitious power BS. Remember the time he defused a bomb with well-placed dance steps?
Not so much sailed as sunk.
Canons sink ships
Nice.
Like this?
https://youtu.be/voHJ5eVLr80?t=1m8s
But fanons sail ships!
The ship has a gaping great big hole in it.
The actual structure doesn’t match the advertised specs.
“Design flaw.”
I think that the point Leslie was making is that she can’t take this any further so long as Robin is lying to herself, let alone the rest of the world. Robin needs to grow up at least a decade and take responsibility for her own decisions and their consequences before Leslie could see her as anything but a source of pain.
Not nescesarily. Robin might have a change of heart on her policies and end up doing some grand romantic gesture or something
“…sooooooo that’s a maybe?”
…
“…what if I promise to help put out this Trumpster fire??”
“PROMISES ARE LIKE CHILDREN“
Anyone can make them, and everyone seems to scream at you if you light a dumpster of them on fire?
Not sure Leslie would use that metaphor for promises. I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t have fun making children, that is.. kind of her defining trait, and invitro isn’t exactly fun.
she liked them in the Other Universe… ‘course they had Joe’s special science (which sounds appropriately lewd)
I bet that was the trademark name.
Joe’s Special Science™
Also available in Mad, Super, and Weird varieties. Look for them at your local retailer!
..I wouldn’t say that being lesbian is Leslie’s defining trait.
I mean, look at this specific strip for example. She chooses not to pursue the biggest crush of her lesbian life. Why? Because she valued her own integrity and honesty, believed in what she stood for, and refused to allow her horniness and lust for Robin hurt either of them. Instead, she encouraged Robin to be more honest with herself, and to stop pretending.
That’s a hell of a lot more of a defining trait of Leslie’s than being lesbian is, even though her name *is* Les bean
Huh? What does sexual preference have to do with making children? (Hint: nothing.) There are multiple options available to lesbians who want to become mothers, from turkey basters to IVF.
BTW, when a lesbian couple does IVF, sometimes one donates the egg and the other carries the child. That way they both participate. I learned this from a lesbian friend who in all seriousness asked me, “Wait, IVF is for straight people too?”
Sexual preference doesn’t have anything to do with making children even in the ‘traditional’ sense
It does when it’s not intentional.
I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that the number of accidental pregnancies for (out) gay men and lesbians, for example, are much lower than for straight couples, even after taking the large difference in demographic size into account.
Only because gay trans men are more likely to have their birth control system locked down than your average cis lady, i think
No, dammit, not promises. Dreams. Our dreams are like our children. They need our encouragement and support to grow. They must be nurtured and sheltered but allowed to run free. 😛
Wow, I just threw up in my mouth a lil’ bit….
What? You got some kind of problem with Jack Lemon? 😀
Dreams are like children. Unpredictable, impossible to control, ruled only by their animalistic baser emotions and a bizarre internal logic that’s incomprehensible to an outside observer, always showing up right when you’re trying to get some sleep, and if you behave like one in public they stick you in a hospital where the rooms have no handles on the inside of the door.
Nice one
Nightmares are like children …
Thank you, this was the funniest thing I read all day. 😀
Dreams are not like children. Children wake you up.
Usually lots of fertilizer is involved in the process as well. Plants need it, children produce it and politicians are full of it.
And Leslie ends the night with a great reaction face. Good job all around team!
New avatar time?
She was so proud of herself, ending on a high note. Of course Robin had to change the track.
Wait till she gets home and Robin is waiting for her.
Know when to walk away.
And know when to run..
You never count your money when you’re sitting at the table
I’M KENNY WOGERS!
There’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealings done.
“I mean if it’s a vote on ‘most persistent asses’ then totally but i don’t think that’s a thing”
I don’t know. My ass is pretty persistent. No matter how fast I run, it’s still somehow right behind me.
Imagine if your ass didn’t have persistence. You’d have to look at it every time you went to sit down.
…The Persistence of Ass Breaks Down – A Salvador Dali parodyt hat has almost definitely already happened.
Robin. Goddammit, Robin.
fuck off robin
The Fuck-Off is still in effect!
Oh dear, it seems this universe’s versions of them will have a long circuitous way to go as well.
“And thanks for the glasses!”
NO ROBIN, NO. *Sprays with water bottle*
Her aide has tried that method. Didn’t work.
and so Robin reverts to being made of cardboard
That’s not a good combination with the comment just above 😀
I thought they went together very well.
Well said, Leslie.
Maybe in another world. Another time. They could have been friends.
“””””friends”””””
I doubt it.
They were, in another universe, a hell of a lot more than friends.
Okay, so, Leslie totally just stole Robin’s glasses.
She can use them to work dark magic against her. Law of Contagion, y’know.
There definitely isn’t some sort of shrine and/or effigy those will go on.
and there’s no way it resembles the one from Hey Arnold. I don’t think Robin even chews gum.
Aw man, Robin no. Always a politician I guess.
Kudos to DoA Leslie for standing up for herself way sooner than old Leslie did. Everything went better than expected!
Almost all of the characters who were significant in the Walkyverse are retreading character-development ground they already walked in the other universe. DoA Leslie, though, seems basically to have just picked up where Walkyverse Leslie left off.
I for one, love the direction Willis went for this, given not two days ago I was talking about having to grit my teeth if this turned out to be just another rehash of the leslie-robin romance. Gladly, it wasn’t.
I’m still right on my other prediction, though, which was that all Robin DeSanto’s are terrible to all Leslie’s in all universes.
My headcanon that I just came up with is that Leslie remembers everything from the other ‘verse. It also explains why she fell so hard for Robin – she remembers the old one. Her running away now is like when Spoiler Spoiler the Spoiler’s Spoiler
I dunno if most of them are treading the *same* ground. Ethan knew he was gay, just didn’t like it. Amber had already become a superhero. Dorothy… well, I don’t know anything about her in the previous verse. But I don’t think it’s fair to call any of this character development retreads.
“Retread” maybe has stronger connotations than I intended. It’s not a retelling of earlier stories; they’re not following exactly the same paths. But most of the characters have had much of their character development undone, and are having to re-learn lessons they learned in the other universe – though not always in the same order, or the same way, or with the same people. (Though there are sometimes echos of specific Walkyverse events, like Joyce encountering Walky as a small child and not remembering it.)
But Leslie hasn’t been rewound back to the diffident doormat she was when she was introduced as “Robin’s lesbian”. She’s still the strong, wise, confident woman with terrible taste in women that she grew into over the course of Shortpacked!.
(There are other exceptions. Sarah, for example, is just a completely different person.)
You are not mentioning the obvious root reason for all these observations. Most of these characters have been reverted to their early college age, but Robin hasn’t and remains roughly the age she was in Shortpacked, or possibly even older than that.
I meant Leslie.
At one point, I actually did have in there an observation that, due to almost everyone else getting rewound, Leslie has gone from being one of the younger cast members to being the adult in the room, but deleted it as tangential to the actual point.
Also worth noting is that Robin hasn’t been down-aged much either, but has lost character development, and is very much not the adult in the room.
…welp. There was a wisp of self-reflection, and then it gently floated away. Good for Leslie for bowing out gracefully; Robin…well, I’m not sure I can call myself disappointed since I wasn’t expecting better of her.
I don’t know that it floated away. Maybe it just hasn’t had enough time to really sink in yet.
That’s true, maybe there’s still hope.
Don’t hurt me now for her love belongs to me…
Probably as old as I am…maybe older.
It’s too late to say you’re sorry.
Call me a heathen, but I prefer this version.
I think this may be a song where a remake was so good it supplanted the original. Like Hendrix with “All Along the Watchtower”
Like Aretha Franklin with “Respect” (originally Otis Redding)
Or The Animals with “House of the rising sun” (traditional)
and Patti Smith with “Because the night”. (Though the original Springsteen version has almost completely different lyrics).
It’s rare, but it does happen.
Johnny Cash on Closer?
And on “Hurt”. One of the very few Youtube advices I followed and didn’t regret.
Whoops I meant Hurt. Not sure whether I want to hear JOhnny Cash wanting to fuck me like an animal…
Oh wait yes I definitely do
Have you heard the Cash cover of “Personal Jesus”?
I’ve heard OF it. I should prolly listen to it at some point…
Good on you Leslie for stopping yourself before it went too far. Hopefully Robin eventually realizes how terrible her politics are.
“Don’t pretend to be what you’re not.”
And so, Congresswoman Desanto pledged to never pretend to need glasses again.
YES, Leslie! Walk away from what is unhealthy for you! I am so proud of you!
I also think Leslie looks really beautiful here. Sad and beautiful.
You can’t count on it, Robin. You’ll have to earn it, and that just doesn’t seem likely.
Savage
*GIANT SIGH OF RELIEF* yessss Leslie made it out of that okay
i mean, obviously no guarantees for the future, but. immediate crisis averted. gives them time to think, and maybe next time meet in a less sexually-charged encounter . .
and that is perhaps the simplest comic title that has up to this point gone unused
The URL is /no-3/, so maybe not.
Politics ruin potential lesbian relationships.
Get real or get out, Robin!!
Hot damn, Leslie is the best.
Get real by getting out?
That’s a real heartbreaking, somber fourth panel.
Annnnnd, that ends a very unlikely series of conversations.
I really dislike Dumbiverse Robin. 🙁
just the right amount of savagery and sadness all rolled into one strip
In panel 2 Leslie’s hand looks more like a foot, what is that?
Comic Reactions:
Okay, gonna try and get this out early because for some reason, my hope and anger fell out in a big way today leaving me in a real shitty headspace that’s making it hard to do fucking anything other than curl in a ball and cry.
Panels 1 and 2: Those blushes in these panels for Robin. I’m not sure what it was she was hoping would happen here (probably Leslie removing her glasses and kissing her), but it’s powerful and I would hope she actually sits and introspects about those feelings, because as Leslie notes later on, those are important.
Panel 3 1st half: Yeah, Leslie knows from brutal first experience the price of pretending, of throwing a last ditch effort to try and be what you’re not. And it is brutal, even when you have no clue that you’re pretending. When I was younger, I attempted suicide… a lot and I self-injured even more than that, to the point where I’m still shocked that my arms aren’t just a mass of scar tissue.
And bullying played its part, but far more than that was being in denial about the dysphoria ripping me apart. Being honest… has cost me. But remaining in the closet would have killed me and now I know I can’t ever go back and pretend to be something I’m not ever again.
Panel 3, 2nd half: “You can ruin more lives than your own”.
And that’s the kicker to the whole thing. Robin’s denial doesn’t just cost her, it costs every queer kid she kicks in the teeth to remain in denial and continue to support hate organizations. Every ounce of denial, every minute she delays from her realization is another queer kid whose life is made worse by her policies.
And beyond that, there’s the interpersonal. If Leslie had less self-esteem, had been more willing to be Robin’s secret lover, her life would have been ruined as well. Not only because of the likely scandal that would eventually come out, but also by the self-hatred of dating someone who is hurting kids like you every day, of having her needs for true love and attention constantly derailed by the needs of the campaign.
And that’s not because the closet is inherently a bad thing. Some people are in scary shitty situations and the closet is the only thing keeping them alive. I’ve had to recloset to stay alive in my past so I’ll never judge anyone making that choice.
But rather because of what Robin is and supports and what that particular closet would help to serve.
And I hope that Robin would internalize this and think about it, but I’ve been real low on hope of late, so who knows?
*appropriate gesture of support*
Thanks. Today has been… really really bad. I actually broke a really really long no self-injuring streak today so… yeah. I’m safe, but… I could be a lot better.
Aw, shoot. Sorry today sucked. I know from previous posts that you have lots of ways to be kind to yourself in its wake, but still.
8~~-({
I’m so sorry to hear that. Is there anyone you can talk to? Can I help in any way?
That sucks :[
I hope tomorrow is a little better than today, and the day after is a little better, and the day after is better, and so on. Into infinity and forever.
Thanks everybody. This is helping a little (no really, reaching out when things are bad is hard for me, so this is a big thing). And I’m hoping that my will to fight will come back in the morning after a long night’s sleep. Cause I sure as shit am not letting anyone enjoy my suffering again without one.
ALL the hugs, and all the sympathy via light touch over the internet.
*appropriate gesture of support*
*also hugs if wanted*
Hugs? If not from internet-person then I have some cute fluffy things to administer hugs on my behalf.
I don’t know how much this will help, I don’t know what you have or continue to go through and I don’t want to diminish your experiences by comparison. But I’ve been in those places, of suicidal wishes and self harm, and feeling utterly alone. Gender dysphoria fucking sucks. And the lows come back now and again.
But for my part- and I hope this is at least a little helpful- the lows are a bit better every time, and take longer to come back. Even with the state of the world being what it is now. I keep finding ways to keep moving forwards and up, little by little, and when I get knocked down I manage to not slip quite so far and have less to claw my way back up.
And maybe that helps? But if not, then hugs.
All the love and hopes and good wishes echoed too. It’s way more than your analyses that make you so much of the the good of each day. Everything you write here is a freaking gift, and the generous thoughtful incredible person behind it all is fresh amazement every day. *appropriate gestures of support*
You didn’t say -why- it was a bad day — which tells me it was pretty bad.
Imagine that in an alternate universe, I’m going ALL MY HUGS
Sorry to hear that your day has been bad. I know reaching out can be difficult, but if you ever need support, know that we’re here and that we’re wishing you the best.
I just hope you can feel better soon.
*Appropriate gesture of support*
I’m glad you’re safe and I trust you to know if you stop being safe and hope you have resources available if that should become the case.
*hugs*
So this is where Robin’s platform just becomes “Oh hey the gays are the best” and everyone still votes for her out of inertia, right?
Panel 4: Eyes closed, head bowed down, rubbing her arm, but hands almost clasped. I love it because it’s not a prayer, but it’s visually close to the mannerisms of one.
And that lends a religious aura to her request in Panel 3 and a silent message of hope. That her self-dignity will hold to her escape and that Robin will take something of meaning from this disastrous evening. Something that genuinely matters.
Panel 5: And you see that hope spring in her when Robin calls her name. Maybe it got through the layers of denialism and masks. Maybe it really truly hit home and Leslie got to do some good after all with barring her pain and suffering.
Panel 6: And this panel is heart-breaking, because, Robin has already rejected that introspection and turned back into her bigoted campaigning. Leslie’s efforts laid moot and sure, Robin may dwell on it alone at night, but Leslie won’t get to see that. All she’ll have is this moment and the way that burns and disrespects what she bore in honesty and pain.
And that’s fucking heartbreaking.
Panel 8: There’s been a lot of garbage produced this election season. But one of the most garbage has been the lament of sexist douchebags worried about their wives leaving them because of their votes for Trump.
And well, yeah, their wives should probably do that. And for all the whining about “mere politics” ending relationships, it ignores that politics is not sports fandom. It matters.
Laws affect whether or not people live or die and candidates mean the difference between trans and other marginalized folks looking forward to 4 years of very slowly growing rights and humanization or literally worrying that they’ll be in camps before the end of the next year.
Politics matter and political viewpoints are not “mere points of disagreements” but signs of whether or not someone values you as a person deserving of even the most basic of human rights.
Leslie’s desire for Robin is strong, strong enough to subject her students to hate for no good reason, attend a rally of people who would gladly call her slurs, and give Robin all of this care and gentle advice.
But at the end of the day, Robin is a woman who passes laws that make it legal for institutions to fire Leslie, that make it legal for them to deny her housing or fight her right to marry. Robin makes it easier for the next generation of queer girls to starve to death on the streets like Leslie nearly did.
And that matters. That matters more than all the strings of her heart going boom. And it matters that Leslie is able to walk away here and hold that true instead of defaulting to all the messages that say she should continue to reach out and give Robin a chance or undervalue her self-respect.
And it’s what makes Leslie an incredibly moral and strong person.
And I hope one day she has a partner who is worthy of her and can cherish her (and who is not a student, dear Bob people, stop shipping her with Daisy) as she deserves.
To use a Steven Universe analogy, Leslie is Pearl and needs to find herself a Mystery Girl.
Indeed she does. And when she does, I think there will be both a voice of reason in the form of Dorothy and the ultimate wingman in the form of Roz, willing to help nudge her in the right direction.
I’m so sad for Leslie. She tried, she really tried. She knew she shouldn’t, it did blow up just like she thought it would, but she still went through with it. Both for her own sake and Robin’s sake.
And I think Robin will remember this, and maybe, just maybe, take the right lessons from it one day.
This isn’t about the strip, but your comments about politics not being a game have caused an epiphany of sorts – that is exactly what bothers me when people complain about people not accepting Trump won. This is not a fucking hockey game where you can expect a handshake and ‘good game’ at the end no matter what because it doesn’t honestly matter outside of matters of pride – this can actually get people hurt, killed, or strip their civil rights away. That is why they will continue to be a thorn in Trump’s side, contact their reps and senators non-stop and basically do anything they can to annoy him. Because this is not a ‘the guy I liked lost’ scenario – this is a ‘the guy who wants to kill me/take my civil rights away won’ scenario. And that fucking matters.
Yeah, that’s what bothers me too.
All the neonazis out gloating about how happy they are to be “winning” and “showing the liberals” and enjoying the “defeat” completely ignorant that we’re not crying and mourning because our team “lost”. Like this isn’t “gosh darnitt, my team choked in the big game”.
And for people of privilege, maybe all this can be that, but for the rest of us, politics is whether or not we live or die, whether or not we can legally retain our employment and housing, whether or not we have any real legal recourse whatsoever.
And that’s true most of the time, but especially true in this last election where literal fascists who are about to be in high government are openly floating the ideas of “camps” for the undesirables and where all of Trump’s neo-nazi fans have been eagerly calling for death camps for over a year.
And every time someone crows about “winning” or yakking about my “defeat”, it shows that they can’t even do me the courtesy of acknowledging how they’ve potentially signed off on my death warrant for so little personal gain for themselves.
Exactly – if you’re going to rank money, pride, or whatever else above people’s lives, at least have the spine to admit it. Don’t hide behind bullshit economics or whatever other excuse you’re using.
Thank you so much for putting that into words BBCC. Because I’ve had the same kind of thought but…never put as eloquently.
No worries. I didn’t quite understand why that analogy stuck with me until tonight, myself.
Wait, is Daisy a student? I thought she was the IDS’ staff editor/advisor. If not, yikes! My bad.
Wait,.what? I… I got to the bottom of the comments… I didn’t realize that was possible for a mere mortal…
I would pay all of my small stockpile of cashbucks(there’s like fifty of them, until tax returns come around. Goddamn is Christmas expensive when your family is as…fruitful…as mine) for your avatar. I’d be much more comfortable being an unrepentant asshole if I was Mike.
You can get any avatar you want for free by registering with Gravatar with the email you use to comment here, and a bit of fiddling. See the link to the right of “NAME” when you are typing a comment. That’s how I have Evil Hanners from QC. Today, anyway.
You can also fiddle with the case of the email you use here to get different avatars. I’m usually Roz, but with all caps, I’m ….?
Robin deSanto, master moment-ruiner.
I just realized that Robin and Clark Kent’s glasses serve the exact same purpose… hiding their identity. Once Clark takes the glasses off, everyone knows he’s dating Batman.
No, Robin… Just… NO.
I had some thoughts about how Leslie’s comment about pretending has multiple layers wrt Robin and her sexuality and political life, etc but I’m too tired to write it out coherently
So…. “Out of this World” is what I’m playing now. And it’s because of the first two panels alone. It’s a song about having to go back to real lives, where we have to say goodbye for real; and how this makes us wish we could have another reality where we don’t..
Because in these two panels, I see a Leslie that is getting the reaction she expected, and understanding how she needs to pull back to real life. Sure, the reaction was not what she hoped for, but it’s still what she expected. In the first panel, she sees that Robin still fails to understand the situation, fails to understand herself. And she is not surprised at all. She managed to lure Robin into the illusion of what could have been, but with a Robin still not certain what is even going on, much less capable of reacting appropriately to it.
And then Leslie breaks the dream… I can almost see the sudden motion of her hand disappearing from Robin’s. With a puff of smoke, the fantasy is dispelled. The twitch of a curtain drops the illusion. Back to reality, just like that. No words really necessary. The mic is being dropped nonetheless. And nobody claps, because we’re too moved to move anything.
In many ways, I Would have been satisfied with today’s comic being only panel 1 and 2, and the rest being turned into tomorrow’s strip. Don’t even widen those two first panels, just run them as they are, centered, wordless, not even a sound being made until they remember to breathe again…
Silence is sometimes the loudest sound. Panel 1 and 2 as a stand-alone strip would in its silence scream volumes.
Agreed, that would have been beautiful. There is SO MUCH going on in this strip but basically any panel combination would have told a great story.
“And then Leslie breaks the dream… ” – that’s a very poetic – and very accurate – way of putting it.
GAWD, way to ruin the mood, Robin.
…actually I think this is Robin just saying the first stupid thing coming out of her mouth. She is on an emotional roller coaster and was about one second and one centimeter from having kissy-times with a lady (as far as she knew), and then suddenly Leslie says something profound and walks away.
I bet Robin’s internal monologue is all “NO, SAY SOMETHING, ANYTHING, TO PREVENT HER FROM LEAVING (…). Why did I say THAT? Stupid, stupid, stupid, Robin.”
” Miles’s sinking heart collided with his drunken panic. _I can’t afford to lose this one, I can’t, I can’t._ Forward momentum, forward momentum and bluff, those had won battles for him before.
” “Yes, ah, heh, quite, well, so, that reminds me, Madame Vorsoisson, I’d been meaning to ask you–will you marry me?
from A Civil Campaign by Lois McMaster Bujold
Yeah that was the vibe i got as well. Not so much Robin consciously ignoring the things Leslie said, but more her brain just spilling out the first thing she could think of before Leslie was gone.
So hey, today for the first time I watched a whole bunch of Steven Universe, and you know what? It’s pretty good! I get it now.
Congrats 😀
yay! its really a wonderful show, i recommend it to just about everyone i know
Yay! It’s really adorable. I’m not head over heels in love with it, but I greatly enjoy it!
You realize, if you weren’t queer before, you are now.
(j/k 🙂 )
I foresee Robin winning and instituting Order 67 which does all manner of awful things!
Robin, screaming after Leslie as she leaves: CLOD
“Good, as I’ve decided I want to retire, start a family maybe? Not sure how that works with the new information you’ve brought up, but I’m sure we can make it work- I mean- I can make it work…”
Not sure I can comment the second strip of today (AKA panel 3 and out) because I need to spend some time making up a whole batch of new cursewords for just how plinkingly gruesomifically buttcysthorrible -wrong- Robin’s response is to all of this.
And yes, I can imagine some pretty understandable reasons. But right now, I don’t really care. Leslie was at her absolutely most vulnerable as we’ve ever seen her, and…. Yeah, pretty sure you all know this already.
Maybe instead, I think I’ll talk a bit about something slightly more positive, but hopefully somewhat relevant.
Some ten years back, when I was visiting a woman with which I had hopeful prospects of a romance or at the very least a fling with, she shot that down. My first instinct was to say a lot of things… My second instinct was that none of those things were appropriate. At all.
So I said “I’ll just go out on the couch and think about this, so I don’t say anything I’ll regret.” And I did. And eventually she came out, and I said things, and none of the things were the things that I first thought about saying. And as a result, it ended at least somewhat amicably.
That was the first time when I truly realised the importance of being able to just shut the hell up when needed.
My wife knows that when she has a complaint about something I did, I’ll never immediately respond, because like pretty much everyone else on planet earth, my first instinct is to defend my actions. I instead take the time needed to think about what it is she told me. Could I have done anything different? Do I need to apologise? I go through all the arguments that I’d try to use to defend myself, and see if they actually hold up, or if they float as well as lead balloons.
And only then do I eventually respond. And sometimes I apologize and sometimes I do not. But hardly ever do I say any of the things that first came to my mind when being called out on my behaviour. Or even if I do use those initial arguments, at least I word them properly.
And my wonderful, wonderful wife knows this, and she approves of it, and never expects an immediate response from me. She knows that when I walk away, I am not ignoring her.
Fortunately for Leslie I don’t think she is in THAT a vulnarable position any longer. She has made her decision, she has sad her piece and she is ready to leave on a high note. All Robin did was ruin her exit. That’s coming pretty cheap out of all this.
Being able to answer with the brain instead of the gut is a rare gift indeed, and I salute you for it.
I like this Leslie, I like her not as a crush-riddled girl
Taking a leaf out of Cerberus’ book tonight because she is great and awesome, her posts are inspirational, and honestly I’ve been meaning to start doing these forever – y’all can have two chatty Cathy’s yakking in the comments panel by panel now. 😛
Panel 1: Awww, to the hand holding. Cerberus is right, it does kinda look like a prayer! What gets me is the expressions though. They are both overflowing with lust. But you can see in Leslie’s eyes she really already knows this won’t work. And that sucks. For someone to put so much time and effort into coming in to their own and losing so much affection from her family, church friends, etc. wanting a relationship so bad but already knowing it’d be doomed has to STING.
And Robin…..Robin’s face here just tells me she fundamentally Does Not Get It. She thinks this is going somewhere sexy and she kind of wants it to (even though she might not admit that to herself). She thinks this is a hot moment here – not the moment Leslie is letting go and moving on. It’s almost sad, but she really does not deserve Leslie after shitting on her and people like her almost her entire time in office. At this point, she’s been told by at least three different people that her policies are harming people directly. At this point, she is not ignorant. She can understand – she just does not want to understand. And that is the point where Leslie has had enough – she’s gone above and beyond her bit. Now she can’t help her. It’s up to Robin now and we’ll see how that goes. My emotions are optimistic, but my brain is having doubts.
Panel 2: Note the lack of blush on Leslie’s face – she has officially snapped out of it. Common sense vs libido – victory common sense. She knows this is not going to be a thing, and certainly not the healthy relationship she wants. Robin is still misunderstanding where this is going – she’s got her open mouth and that blush is intense. I’m thinking she’s hoping for something veeeery different than what is going down.
Panel 3: Oh, Leslie. Ouch. That one hurt. She’s right though – Robin is not just harming herself. She’s harming others, especially vulnerable LGBT+ populations, like the disabled, young people, people of colour who already get shat on, etc. Robin needs to change or those people are screwed. Especially in this political climate. I like the touch of her taking Robin’s glasses that she used to appear smart. She knows Robin is a faker who puts on whatever face she finds convenient. So taking those glasses is a really cool visual shorthand for her point – you don’t need this fake shit. Be yourself. And I would like to note here that Robin’s district goes back and forth between the parties constantly, so she she actually DOESN’T need to be a bigot to be electable. Which makes her even worse morally speaking, what the FUCK Robin?
And Robin’s face – she’s finally cottoning on that this isn’t going to end the way she wants it to. She is not going to get the hot lady time that could end up a hideously bad scandal on tv. She is not going to get ‘her lesbian’ this go-around. She’s hurt Leslie and she doesn’t know how deeply and she’s not sure how this makes her feel but she does not like it.
Panel 4: Okay, irrelevant commentoid first – Leslie’s outfit is SO PRETTY. She looks great! I love it. On to the meat of this panel – I really love it. You can see just how heartbreaking this is for Leslie, who desperately wants her idyllic lesbian family life but is yet again robbed of affection and happiness by other folk’s bigotry. I like the distance between them too. She looks very alone and very upset.
I like Robin in the background, looking kind of blank. You can see the wheels are turning in her head, trying to decide how to react to this. She’s surprised how this is going, and seems…kinda alarmed (it’s her mouth expression and how wide her eyes are). Like, no, pretty lady, don’t leave, we were about to have emotionally unhealthy but politically charged lady loving! Nope, not this time Robin. But she’s definitely trying to process how this is going. She is unsure how to react to this.
Panel 5: And despite herself, Leslie looks back. Maybe hoping Robin had a last minute epiphany. And that hurts me – she looks so curious and maybe very cautiously hopeful. She wants Robin to change so much. But then you look at her mouth – it’s very different from her eyes. Her mouth is neutral and harder – she very well knows this won’t be the epiphany she wants to hear, but she’s looking to hear Robin out anyways.
Panel 6: Aaaaand, politician Robin is back. When called to process the unpleasant and unfamiliar, she falls back on to her carefully constructed politician lady. Asking for votes – even a touch of whacky Robin with her big smile and the finger pointing. She’s cool, she’s a rad congress lady, what seriousness? There’s no seriousness in Robinville. Seriousness means sad things and pain and oh god maybe someone leaving or tearing down relationships, let’s not do that, avoid, obfuscate, point to something weird or fun, oh hey I can be weird and fun, hahaha, this is a joke, see me joking, I’m not having any serious thoughts at all. Shame her eyes are telling on her, with the half twitch/half wrinkles on the left eye. Oh, Robin, you tried.
Panel 7: OUCH, Leslie. That face. She looks annoyed, and kinda like she wants to say something a lot more biting than what she actually says. And justifiably so! She just went out and poured her heart out to Robin trying to make her understand why she fucked up and how she’s hurting people only to get what looks like a failed, ignored epiphany, homophobic apologism and victim blaming spewed at her for the fifty millionth time, and a joke. Not even a good one either. And overall? She is tired. She’s tired of dealing with Robin, she’s tired of the failed epiphanies and how painful they are, and she is utterly exhausted by the homophobic fucknuts who just will not understand no matter how patient she is. And after at least three people have told her in detail why she’s hurting people? No, that’s not ‘she might not get it’ – no, she either refuses to get it or she simply does not care. And those are the kinds of people where it is best to give up – you can’t help people who refuse to learn. Robin made her bed, but it’s LGBT+ folks who will have to lay in it. And until Robin understands that, there is no chance at all for healthy relationships between them and Leslie is accepting that even though it slaps everything she’s wanted for herself in the face. Poor Leslie.
Panel 8: I love her expression here! It perfectly conveys ‘what the ever loving heck were you thinking asking me that? Of course not!’. And yeah, Robin, no, you do not get to piss on people and then act surprised when they tell you it isn’t raining and refuse to step underneath you to make it easier. What the hell?
I am so proud of Leslie here – this had to hurt. But she recognized it was unhealthy, not doing the good she wanted it to, and she cannot affect Robin further here, so she’s letting go, walking away, and making it clear she is not supporting Robin. This is not a good relationship to pursue and, for now at least, Leslie wants no part of it. Good for her.
Yay! I love this!
Then mission accomplished! 😀
Shouldn’t you take a coin from Cerberus hand or something to prove your mastership in the art of Very Long Comments? 🙂
Anyway, great analysis. I really agree on how wonderful the metaphor with the glasses is. You can’t hide behind your false smart glass now, Robin. Time to be yourself.
And Leslie desperately, DESPERATELY wants it to work. But she knows it won’t. 🙁
Ohhhhh I was like this long before I started reading her well crafted webcomic thoughts – I’m chatty. She just gave me an excuse to start doing so here.
Thank you! The expressions and the metaphor with the glasses are great – sometimes its what’s left unsaid that’s as deep as what’s said, especially in visual formats like comics.
I knoooooooowwwww. Leslie, please, I beg you, go find a lesbian group nearby!
I absolutely love how much Willis packs not only into the words, but the art as well, often in ways which reward careful reading (like having looks between characters foreshadow connection or future plotlines).
It’s a style that really rewards diving deep into a work and mining out its guts.
Yes! The characters expressions are great and often tell you what they’re thinking and how this will go.
I am just going to take this moment to say DAMN YOU BBCC for making thoughtful comic responses! How are people going to pay attention to me when you write things like this?!?!?!
You made me have feels by introducing me to Always Human. Therefore, I am stealing some of your attention. 😛 Ideally, this will lower your approval rating and hopefully force you to abdicate your internet throne.
That’s right – I play the petty long game.
…You do realise emperors don’t run on approval rating, right?
No, but unhappy subjects tend to become ungovernable subjects. At some point it’s either abdicate or revolt. 😛
Ehh…
…
…
…
…
I’m emperor of the internet.
Now, I don’t know if you’ve noticed (you might be new around here), but “ungovernable subjects” doesn’t half begin to describe that place. Or quarter. Or centi. Or nano.
What I’m saying is, you’ll probably need to step up your petty game a notch. My “amount of revolts” counter spins faster than McDonald’s “burgers sold” counter.
Eh, I tried, that’s good enough for exam season. Good enough to save my rep. Have fun with your ungovernable wasteland of neo nazis and 4chan.
Pffft, as if I ever venture into those places personally. What do you think I have
dungeon prisoners, ehh, I mean,unpaid labour forces, no wait, “highly paid and motivated individuals” for?Interns?
No WONDER they’re so poorly moderated, get your life together! 😛
Grad students?
Heh.
Your Emperousness, some of us were around that time way way way wayyyyy back when, when someone tried taking Leader Kibo’s crown.
And we remember.
Which is why even though he left Usenet years ago, and his Christmas Stories are relics of history, ain’t NONE of us gonna try THAT again.
Eh, was worth a try.
Yeah, that’s Robin – A total lack of self-awareness and a complete inability (and possibly unwillingness) to understand anything that does not personally interest her that is so great it become horrifically funny. I’m betting that, if I sat down with her now and asked her what Leslie was talking about she’d dismiss it as “something about charities or homeless persons policies; I’m sure Freida will tell me if any of it is important.”
Unlikely. Frieda doesn’t actually work with Robin all the time – she just met her yesterday! She works student outreach for her campaign. Kyle would probably be the one to tell her, if anyone.
She would, but she’d be lying. That would be the fake persona again. She likely doesn’t understand and she’s certainly not going to talk to anyone else about it, but she’s been affected. That persona’s all defense mechanism.
This isn’t over. We’ll see Robin again and we’ll see the repercussions of this night.
Robin, Robin, Robin… You will NEVER win enough votes if you try and win over each voter individually. Robocalls are the way to go! 😉
…and the whore and politician will look up and shout “Vote for me!”… and I’ll whisper “no.”
(I’m predicting at least one word above will be substituted by Willis’ filter.)
surprisingly enough whore is not censored but bongo is. You’d think the former would be considered more offensive?
There was an incident with overuse of “bongo” that prompted the filter. I’m sure if there was a outbreak of calling some character a whore it would also get dealt with.
Oh, didn’t notice at first read, but she’s taking off with Robin’s glass, isn’t she.
To me, Leslie’s expression in panels 7 and 8 say “Oh for cryin’ out loud! I’ve been talking to myself all evening, haven’t I?”
That’s one of the downsides to Robin. She’s so self-absorbed that, no matter what you say, she’ll ultimately steer it back to her and what she wants. In this case: a vote and possibly even an endorsement.
I don’t believe it.
That’s Robin retreating back into “wacky Robin” mode for cover. As Bagge said above, she called out to Leslie because she desperately wanted her to come back, to stay, but then couldn’t actually bring herself to make that kind of admission.
So she falls back on the safe, political cover and is probably kicking herself inside.
And honestly, that shouldn’t be a surprise – for anyone. Coming out is hard, even, or especially, to yourself. Even worse when it will destroy your career and make you face horrible things you’ve done. Not easy to do. Not going to happen in one “date”, however much you like the professor.
Seeds have been sown though, we’ll see what kind of crop has grown when Robin shows up again.
I hope she doesn’t show up again. I don’t care about this character arc, I don’t care about this shitty trope and I’m sick of watching her make Leslie feel like shit.
I don’t mind her showing up again and showing some character development, but it would be less painful if she could do it around her sister instead.
But “more painful” is what Willis feeds on.
Totally Off-Topic: Someone drove a large truck through a Berlin Christmas Market yesterday evening, leaving 12 dead and 50 hurt. And the fascists are having a field day accusing Merkel of being responsible “because she let in the refugees”.
When it comes to dismantling democracy, IS and right-wingers work hand-in-hand.
Also, shit, shits, shit!!!!
How far “right” does someone have to be, to be a “right winger” in this equation? It sounds like you’re talking about fascists and “race warriors”, but somehow when the “right wingers are monsters and idiots” discussions start, it pretty quickly broadens to “anyone to the right of HERE is a racist sexist pig”.
It would be a lot better if we could ditch the whole “right vs left” false dichotomy entirely — it ignores variations and nuance. A western-European-style “social democrat” is an entirely different thing from a Huge Chavez sort, and a libertarian is a very different beast from a fascist.
Someone who supports a political party that wants to do away with democracy (some of their members are talking about starting a civil war to get Merkel out of office), they yell about “the lying press” all the time, they say they are afraid of women having to wear a burka in Germany and who wanted the Bundeswehr to shoot a refugees at the border to keep them out. The kind that throw fire-bombs into refugee homes and thinks this makes them freedom-fighters or those who just chear them on.
Those kinds of right-wingers.
…not to forget all those who are only too happy to eventually have a group of people they can blame everything bad on. (And I’m asking myself: if they actually would manage to drive refugees out of the country, how long would it take them to realize that this didn’t make anything better, and what marginalized group will they pick as the next scapegoats?)
Thank you for a rational response, clarifying your point.
It sounded like that’s what you meant, but there’s an agenda forwardrd by certain people to conflate anyone “to the right” of, oh, Bernie Sanders, with the various sorts of fascist and racist pigs, tinfoil hat wingnuts, etc.
A) “Right-wingers” has been an epithet meaning the far-right for a long time now. People don’t usually say “right-wingers” when they mean moderate Republicans who love gay marriage and rebel against the party when they are being super racist.
B) Have you been paying attention? The modern right has been demanding a party discipline with an increasingly extreme worldview of extreme bigotry and while CJ is lamenting the political situation in Germany, we’ve just seen an election in the US and that has been echoed and preceded by votes in UK and in other countries, wherein the choice was between virulent bigotry and moderatism and the right-leaning public went all in on intense bigotry even to the point of not even blinking when literal neo-nazis started joining their movement en masse and defending them in thinkpieces.
So, it’s not even remotely CJ’s point, what you are claiming CJ is trying to imply, but if CJ were to make that point, CJ would have one hell of a leg to stand on. In the current elections in a lot of western countries, right-leaning right now means more comfortable with literal fascists than with the existence of Islamic refugees, trans people, or women having rights. And a lot of the stated policies of right-leaning groups are mostly openly bigoted (in that for all their flowery language, their sole purpose is to harm marginalized folks and make their lives harder to live)*.
*http://www.statesman.com/news/state–regional-govt–politics/dan-patrick-legislative-priority-keeping-men-out-ladies-rooms/cmXy5mL9AzDN8pZ5vYJZcO/ for only one example.
C) As CJ clarified, the focus of “right-wingers” is literal neo-nazis and other anti-Islamic bigots who have been committing literal hate crimes against desperate at-need populations. So, you can drop the “all right-wing lives” malarky.
D) You’ve been making these paeans about how you are the enlightened moderate and “both sides”, which gotta say, is somewhat rich after this last American election where “both sides” malarky was used to help elect a literal fascist who reads Mein Kampf for fun and who employs white supremacist advisors who transparently float the idea of bringing back camps for the undesirables and whose election has reinvigorated actual nazi-salutin’ fascists who get their jollies “joking” about death camps on the internet.
And a cynical woman might suspect this may have more to do with cleansing your conscience as a libertarian who is slowly realizing how many “libertarian” minded people in this country are actually literally fascist or at least fascist-sympathizing (and no, I don’t mean in a libertarians are all secretly fascist way, I mean in a white supremacists and neo-nazis have been directly recruiting in libertarian rich spaces, stoking white male resentment to try and radicalize the nascent sexism and racism of modern libertarian movements to try and sell an ideology of outright eliminationism).
And well, to that I say, look at the timing and circumstances and target of your campaign. Is the real problem liberals scared of rising fascism in the West? Or is it right-leaning organizations and voters becoming more and more comfortable letting literal nazis frolic and play with their organizations.
Oh if only they stuck to the internet. Hate Crimes have spiked after the election of the fascists, just as in Britain.
Both sides have extremists! So please ignore that the one side has them as its extreme, and the other has put them front and center.
Yes, but to my knowledge, there aren’t any left-wing extremist movements that have done anything noteworthy or violent recently
No, and I know from statistics that they’ve been less common than right-wing extremist violence for a long while now. The lack of true equivalence was my point, sorry for not being clear.
You’re not entirely wrong there, one “side” here has sold its soul to evil to ensure victory over the other.
But if the approach over the next four years is to scream “idiot” and “bigot” and “ignorant pig” at everyone who voted for The Donald… if there’s no effort to understand why almost half of the Americans who voted, voted for The Donald (and NO, it’s NOT “they’re all racists and bigots and closet fascists)… if there’s no effort to understand why Clinton received significantly fewer votes than Obama did in 2008 against a much less vile and disturbing opponent… if people who are opposed to The Donald aren’t willing to take a cold, hard look at the facts…
… then we’re going to be right back here in December of 2020.
Well, any real dissection of 2016 is going to have to grapple with the fact that for a considerable portion of the electorate, the bigotry was the selling point.
For some people, what matters more than the economy, human rights, jobs, and so on, is the idea of “getting back at the uppity (slurs)” and we saw that on display. For a higher and higher part of America, nothing matters more than making marginalized groups suffer and blaming them for everything that is unsatisfying about ones own life.
And trying to engage about “economic insecurity” and so on will continue to be unsuccessful without accepting the elephant in the room.
Acknowledging that bigotry was a crucial part of this election means tackling that head on. It means fighting the bigoted systems that depress voter turnout. It means protecting marginalized citizens who are going to be targeted and die in the next X years. It means not giving up on forward progress because of an incorrect belief that bigots will somehow be satisfied with a certain amount of blood and won’t push for more.
And it means shutting down the pipeline of recruitment to white nationalism and nazism, treating abuse as what it is, and pushing back hard until all the people who found it easy to be bigots see exactly who they are hurting and how.
Hillary Clinton won the popular vote. She won by as much as Obama, but systems of disenfranchisement worked to flip enough battleground states just enough for Trump to win. That means Clinton’s messages resonate, but there are institutional barriers put in place to make that resonation meaningless. To make the votes of millions of Americans meaningless or non-existent.
It is not a call for all the marginalized groups to crawl into a hole and stop sharing their experiences and the pain these bigoted votes and laws cause.
And that is what this whole arc with Leslie is about.
In your estimation, what percentage of those who voted for The Donald considered the bigotry an actual selling point?
How many just didn’t care?
How many kept telling themselves “he’s just saying that to get elected?”
How many didn’t follow the news closely enough to realize how bad it way?
How many knew, and swallowed it as a bitter pill because something else was more important?
Again, this isn’t a defense of The Donald, or trying to make voting for him out to be a neutral action when he’s about as vile as a human being can get.
I’m simply more interested in understanding what I’m really up against when it comes time for the full court press to remove him, than in feeding the problem. This time, I voted for Clinton (ugh) and made it clear to people I know why they shouldn’t vote for The Donald. Next time, I’m doing a lot more. Hopefully the Democratic party gives people a candidate that’s not a caricature of everything about the party that turns so many American voters off.
For the record: Next time starts now. There are elections in 2018, if not local elections sooner. Forget 2020 and the next presidential race for now.
Learn about your local candidates, your Congressional slate and your state representatives. There’s work to be done there that may be able to blunt some of the damage.
Getting Democrats (and Dem-leaning independents) to turn out in non-Presidential years would change the country.
And contact your Congresscritters. Push them to fight Trump and the worst of what the Republican party has planned for us. It may not seem like it, but it does help. It does matter.
Well, based on polls alone, 70-90% of Trump voters openly expressed their support for what are not only bigoted policies but the sort of open bigotry future generations will look back on in as much horror as Japanese Internment camps:
http://www.dailywire.com/news/4487/poll-how-many-americans-back-trumps-muslim-ban-michael-qazvini
So, that’s the vast majority of his supporters being open about their bigotry being a major driving point. So for that remaining 10-30%, it comes down to a lot of passive bigotry. Certainly enough to ignore the million and a half warning signs he came with and the vileness of his stated policies, as you note.
It’s definitely a sobering situation.
The positives though is that this is probably only about 27% or so of the population based on the Alan Keyes test, it’s just this 27% of the population has a much more supported right to vote than the rest of the population and more of a feeling that their vote matters because of politicians constantly courting them and saying that they are the “Real America”.
Stinking branch limits..
It’s of note that that poll was conducted 1 week after the Brussels bombings, and 4 months after terrorists with ties to Brussels perpetrators killed 130 people in Paris.
I wonder what results would come from that same poll today.
It doesn’t matter when it was – what matters is that at a given point in time, 70-90% of his supporters considered Islamophobia a selling point. If they’ve since changed their minds, great, but they did consider it a selling point and they need to acknowledge and accept what that means.
For the ten millionth time, voting for Trump was inherently a bigoted action. He didn’t start exploding bigotry after he was elected. There was no bait and switch. If they weren’t paying attention, that’s on them for not researching their candidate.
Again, “I don’t personally want you to die, but X matters more to me than your lives and civil rights’ is not actually better than ‘I want you to die.”
From the googling, it’s been pretty comfortably in that range, as has been the support for the wall between the US and Mexico which is similarly based in cartoonish levels of bigotry.
Policy polls in September and August cite numbers in the 70s for those, again fairly consistently.
So, it’s a key part of the support if not the main draw entirely.
I would argue you’re equating two separate things. One is what can be done to put up a better show against people like Trump. For instance it’s not true Clinton didn’t offer anything the middle class, that was something built up by biased outlets, but she could have shown herself less in favor of things like the TPP and more aligned with traditional allies like unions. That might have helped get her numbers closer to what the Democratic party have had in the past, and really, a lot of it is stuff they should be doing anyway.
The other thing is what actually earned Trump his support. As people have said, the data out there shows that really is largely bigotry and ignorance, and that’s especially true of how he won the primary. It’s not a question of screaming “idiot” and “bigot”, it’s a question of understanding what happened. Enough people already insisted on pretending bigotry could not possibly motivate a lot of the electorate, and that left them unprepared for the results of it doing so. We need to keep our eyes open to it.
I didn’t accuse CJ of saying anything of the sort, I asked a question AND followed it up by saying “it sounds like you’re talking about extremists and monsters” (paraphrasing myself a bit).
Regarding point D…
It’s not just here, that I’ve been trying very hard to get people to stop chalking Trump’s victory up to a simplified, smug narrative of “racists, rednecks, and ignorance”. It’s a self-serving, sour-grapes narrative that takes a small part of the story and turns into “The Truth”.
I’m not saying “we need to respect both sides” or “all opinions are valid” — quite the opposite, I’ve been trying to get people to realize that “both” sides share in the *blame* here. The Clinton campaign, the DNC, and the overall “American Left” played their own parts in this disturbing turn of events. They presumed victory in key states, ignored large chunks of the electorate, ran a mechanical and calculating campaign, etc.
I’m not saying that the problem is “fear of rising fascism”. I’m saying that if people keeping lumping everyone “to the right” of themselves into a single category and calling them all racists and facists and whatnot, then they’re making things worse.
People who aren’t racists aren’t going to vote for you if you keep calling them racists, or “racists by association”. People who aren’t fascists aren’t going to vote for you if you keep calling them fascists, or “fascists by association”. Insulting and demeaning people won’t motivate them to vote for you.
“Divide and conquer” has been the methodology of “the right” AND “the left” in the US.
Maybe I’m screaming into the wind, here. The “American left” has spent the last 30+ years convincing people that their interests are completely defined by their “identity”, and now the fringe “far-right” has latched onto that bullshit and is running with it, using the same siren-song to draw in disaffected and despairing voters If you spend all that effort convincing people that their interests are defined by their skin color (or whatever), don’t be shocked if they start listening.
Yeah, see your point gets somewhat diluted by you echoing the right-wing talking points about ‘identity politics”.
Cause, here’s the cold, hard, reality of that. My backing trans rights isn’t out of fealty to an accident of birth, but a recognition on the very real way being trans makes my life literally harder to live than if I was cis. And not in a “oh, ho hum, sort of way, but in a ‘I’m disowned, nearly ended up homeless, and have narrowly avoided being murdered several times'”.
White power and men’s rights groups co-opting that idea to justify a supremacist worldview that has defined this country since its literal inception (Grand Compromise anyone?) over an identity that literally defines itself in its avoidance of traits that are considered the “other”, in trying to avoid being seen as “too ethnic” or “too feminine”, does not disprove the value of abused and marginalized trying to group together so someone can stitch back together the wounds when they get beat by the first groups.
And this idea that the only way through is to never ever call out the bigotry of groups who are literally creaming their pants at the idea of us suffering and dying. Who get off on our misery, is bullshit. Is the idea that a power structure that only keeps itself in place with mass disenfranchisement and centuries old systems enshrined by literal slavers is somehow more worthy because of being white.
That the active recruitment and radicalization of dominant identity folks by literal hate movements is somehow the fault of their victims for daring to note how often they are getting hit.
So yeah, to bring it back to the comic, it’s not on Leslie to save Robin and her supporters, not on Carla to personally make Mary less of an active bigot, not on Sal to hand-hold all the white people and tell them it’s okay she’s willing to ignore all the racist microaggressions she’s been dealing with all her life.
And frankly, if people are openly willing to vote for a child-raping fascist simply because he hates minorities and women enough, then they are bigots. Them being more of the population that is allowed to vote doesn’t make them right anymore than the majority of the population thinking trans people are secret molesters waiting to rape kids in the bathrooms are right.
Also, minor aside. But what the fuck is up with this year and all the conservative and moderate assholes thinking winning an election means all the minority groups clamoring for their rights now have to shut up forever.
Like, um, sorry, no, even if you murder us, we still exist. We’re still going to exist in the margins and we’re still going to speak on behalf of our humanity because we have no choice.
It’s a dangerously frightening worldview, because too many damn people are of the mindset that this election was supposed to make all the marginalized people up and hide in the margins silent and still and disappear away from where they have to see us and I worry about what they’ve stated as their follow-up when this fantasy of theirs continues not to happen because it is impossible.
Like, it would not be the first time in our history, where we tried to eliminate a group of people off the planet out of sight and out of mind because they were inconvenient to our worldview of a dominant-group only society.
Agreed.
“We won, shut up” is a fundamental failure to understand what a civil democracy is about.
And I’m hoping that the people who they are telling to shut up get twice as loud as before.
But they’ve got to do it politely, right?
No talk of racism or sexism or any other bigotry. Even when they ban Muslim refugees or send the gays to conversion therapy camps. Or just keep shooting black men down in the streets. Got to stay civil and not risk offending anyone.
I can’t reply directly to thejeff below, so this will have to do.
Depends on what you mean by “polite”.
Demanding justice for innocent people gunned down by overzealous, callous, and/or racist police officers? Good. Demanding reform of law enforcement and the judicial system? Good. Making bad cops accountable for their actions and getting them off the streets and off the force? Good. Demanding it over and over until things change? Good.
Calling all police racists and chanting “pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon” when someone guns down a random officer? That’s where people lose my support and my sympathy, and can STFU. Someone in my immediate family is a police officer, and the thought of them being randomly gunned down by some jackass out for “justice” chills me to the bone.
Reserve accusations of racism and bigotry… for people of actual racist and bigoted intent. Prejudice is prejudice, and a broad brush is the enemy of justice no matter who it’s painting.
I’ve been seeing that shit all over facebook and twitter. Name a thing liberals are in favor of, and apparently that’s why Trump won.
I’ve found that something along the lines of “Oh, so you don’t actually have a counterargument?” seems to be an effective response.
From what I’ve seen, it seems like it’s entirely about trying to shut people down and/or infuriate them into making themselves look angry or stupid.
I’m of the position that we should treat everyone decently and respectfully because it’s the right thing to do, because it’s fair, because it’s the kind of world I want to live in. And being an ass for superficial reasons to random people is actually more work.
The problem there is assuming that they voted for him because he hates minorities and women (or thinks nothing of playing to those who do)… rather than for some other reason in spite of it or while ignoring it.
That’s not to say that they were right to vote for him, but rather to say understanding why they voted for him is more productive to getting them to vote for someone else in 4 years, than just broad-brushing them all as bigots and dismissing them.
They either voted for him because of that or because that wasn’t even remotely enough of a turn-off.
And this election is a really good barometer because almost all of Trump’s stated policies are about hurting minorities. And he’s barely dropped any of his support now that he’s trotting out the worst of crony capitalism to run all his departments.
It’s not economic insecurity that drove the majority of voters, it’s bigotry, tribal loyalty, or folks who were deluded and were only too happy to ignore all the nazis crowing about their man because they, for completely non-bigoted reasons, of course, decided that a woman was just inherently untrustworthy or those Mexicans really are shifty seeming.
And I’m not really in a mood to be all that forgiving of Trump voters who looked at his plans for me and mine, the fear in our eyes, and thought that was appealing as all hell or easily ignorable because something something Jesus.
Treating people fair means acknowledging when they fuck up. Trying to ignore the fuck ups because we want to think well of folks who mean us harm means accepting abuse and viewing your own life and worth as less than the feelings of your oppressors.
And that is something I learned the hard way.
Shorter me:
I’m not judging them on their identity, I’m judging them on their actions. Voting is an action. An action that has real consequences.
And their actions are hostile to me and mine and bigoted.
Good people can do bigoted things sometimes. It’s part of fucking up and growing up. But it takes acknowledging that bigotry is a fuck-up to begin with.
The very best you can say is that his voters looked at the sexism and racism and homophobia and religious bigotry and said “That’s not bad enough to stop me. It’s less important than whatever it is I like about him.”
Which is pretty damn bad by itself.
Or what they didn’t like about the alternative…
Once again, if you considered Trump’s promises to actively assault on the safety of marginalized groups to be in any way something you were willing to tolerate then you are at best a bigot by way of apathy for our well being and our human rights. There is no way I can look at a Trump supporter and not judge them to be either a bigot or irresponsibly uninformed or both.
The alternative was, at worst the status quo.
And the crap they were fed from Hillary mostly came direct from Trump or other unmistakably awful shits like him.
Even the people who saw both as equally bad looked at a hateful conman who can’t even win graciously, much less show respect to anyone not actively kissing his ass, and then they looked at a qualified, experienced woman who is a bit dry and not terribly exciting to listen to, but who actually seems to know and care about what she’s doing, and doesn’t think “preparing for a debate” is a weird, underhanded thing to do.
Then, they decided “I believe the horrible things I hear about Hillary, all of those bad things I hear about the rapist must be lies!”
“A libertarian is a very different beast from a fascist”
No. No, they are not. Their motivations are different, but libertarians just helped put into power a fascist government in the USA. They have stood with the KKK quite directly (You can thank Thiel for that. ‘But he’s a crony capitalist!’ yes, a libertarian, I know.) . This fucking handwringing is asinine at this point. Libertarians may not specifically want me dead, but they don’t give two fucking shiny pennies about whether I die or not, so long as their precious, and harmful, classist policy gets put into place. If Libertarians want to be treated differently, they shouldn’t fucking sleep with the fascists.
Yeah, there’s not much a difference from ‘I want you dead’ and ‘I don’t personally want you dead, but I am going to ally myself with these people who do and not say ‘boo’ about it’. Certainly not as much as people seem to think.
I can’t argue with you *entirely* on that… there’s a reason I won’t join the big-L Libertarian party, and I don’t call myself a Libertarian.
There are unfortunately too many people hiding under that banner who aren’t libertarians at all, or who cling to libertarian talking points for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual political philopsophy, and are using legitimate minarchist theory as a smokescreen for “I want to treat other people like crap on the bottom of my shoe, and it’s not right that you try to stop me”.
When I said “libertarian”, I meant actual libertarian, the actual political philosophy, and not other people who use the term for cover.
Conflating genuine libertarianism with actual fascism, is the same as trying to make the entirety of the “left” out to be closet Stalinists.
There are also an awful lot of libertarians I’ve heard making the claim that they aren’t themselves bigots and wouldn’t do those horrible prejudiced things, but that having the federal government interfere and stop them is even worse. Often focused on the 60s Civil Rights Movement and state’s rights. Often with patina of “market forces would have fixed it soon”, like they hadn’t for decades.
Whether that’s just cover for actual hatred of minorities, just lack of concern for what happens to them or real naivete, I don’t really care.
Interestingly enough, the movement we think of as Libertarians in a modern sense (certainly the group that actively recruits online under that name) really got their start in the Segregation movement, adapting the fig leaf of “state’s rights” into a general anti-federal government argument.
Hence why the movement is so frickin’ white and why so few in the movement speak out about issues like disenfranchisement of felons.
Like there’s earlier Randian roots they co-opted, but a lot of its surge in popularity was a direct result of wanting to intellectualize the argument against integration. Hence why so much of the backlash against “government intrusion” always seems to focus on things like hate crime laws or non-discrimination laws rather than actual civil-rights abuses.
It’s… complicated… and I often find myself at odds with parts of the various strains of the thing.
(For general reader reference — en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism )
While I sympathize with their minarchist sentiments, what the minimum functional/ethical amount of government is, is a far more complex question than they seem willing to deal with.
Power concentrates unto itself whether there’s government or not, and I would say that one of the legitimate functions of government is not to be a whore to other concentrations of power, but to be a counter to them. Corporations, unions, interest groups… government should be standing in opposition to anything that tries to dominate the individual.
Government must be the bastion of justice, and part of justice is fairness and equality of opportunity. When someone has their boot on the throat of another, government must step in.
I take “niceties” like “by the people, for the people, and of the people”… “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”… “one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all”… as the serious and solemn duties of our government.
Federal overreach IS sometimes a problem (will avoid tangent on the details), but yeah, for the most part “states’ rights” has been and is a smokescreen for some pretty vile agendas.
The “states’ rights” thing seems to ignore that for many years before the ACW, it was the slave states arguing AGAINST state’s rights, as they pushed the federal government to enforce fugitive slave laws across state lines and punish northern state and local governments that either ignored or undermined those federal laws. It’s just shuffling the argument around depending on whether the federal government is backing them up or slapping them down — same as with the whole “activist judges” thing.
ACW? I’m guessing that you mean ‘American Civil War’. But that’s only a guess. I like ‘Antarctic Circumpolar Wave’ myself.
That was actually an interesting point about ‘states rights’ being … flexible?
But if States have rights… why are they in my bathroom?
The platonic ideal of libertarianism doesn’t really mean anythign to me, as someone who has to live in the real world and not a cave of concepts. The reality on the ground for Libertarianism is, its adherents would rather bed with Nazis to get their policies in place, than see them not receive them. The reality on the ground is that the concept of an invasive state is a polite fiction that is only respected when it gets in the way of their business ambitions – an invasive state that would imprison or kill people matters less. They generally want to destroy government interference that ensures equality of opportunity. Whether they ‘should’ or ‘shouldnt’ to be libertarians is literally not my problem. I don’t really care whether they’re ‘bad libertarians’, anymore than I honestly care whether fundamentalists who argue to restrict the rights of gay people are ‘bad Christians’.
Like, maybe they are, but what does that mean to me? I am not really concerned with their status as Libertarians in Good Standing. That’s their problem. And again, there is no closet here. They stood with fascists. This /happened/. I’m not ‘guessing about their real beliefs’. I don’t really care what their little heart of hearts has to say. I care about what they do. And what they /did/ was vote for fascists. Fascists who announced their intention in advance. Fascists who boldly stated they were not only going to destroy ‘federal overreach’ in reducing racist bullshittery, but that they were going to enact ‘federal overreach’ to commit racist actions.
What I find interesting about politics is the perception of it all, for example I vote National (in NZ) and currently National is considred center right however if National were a political party in the USA it’d be certainly be to the left of the Democrats
Context. Context and culture.
Canada’s conservative party last election would generally be to the left of the Republicans too – in the sense that Harper had given up on ending same gender marriage and abortion because Canada had been very clear they wanted those things (though some of his party is now trying to campaign it back) and didn’t argue against socialized health care (though he was shitty about it).
There’s a reason the Conservatives got their teeth kicked in last election.
Because they’re still shitty and most Canadians tend to lean left, albeit in several different left leaning parties?
The us being so far to the right of other developed countries that its left registers as center right is a deliberate tactic invented by by Carl rove called “shifting the overton window”
Obama, in any sane country, would be center right, and that’s how he seems to me.
Not entirely a result of Karl Rove, the US has been shifting right pretty consistently since Reagan.
It also doesn’t help that the Clintons are actually pretty conservative, all things considered, and have been a powerful voice and influence on the left for 30-40 years.
Huh, I didn’t think my comment would start so large a discussion.
Actually, the thing that occupies my thoughts most ist actually, how one can get through to people like those who voted for Trump. Watching the Brexit and US elections was scary, because they seemed like a real life explanation of how Hitler came to power. German history book newer really explained how suddenly, after the freedom of the roaring twenties, so many people voted for a guy that openly pronounced his aims.
If we do not manage to get through to people who are basicly a little bigoted but not so much you would think of that as their defining attribute when they were, say, your collegues at work, we do not do our best to avoid fascists coming to power.
People do not really care for stuff that doesn’t resonate with their lives. So in what politicians say they only hear what makes sense to them. Populists manage to resonate by appealing to emotions and, frankly said, guiding by fear and “feeling more worthy”. Stupid intellectuals like me have trouble reaching people, we “don’t care enough” because with think, we check facts, we look at resonating people’s fears as immoral and want them to think, not react. We accept that any answer is emergent and this does not resonate well at all with people who just want someone “to make their life safe again” (someone in a forum actually said that). They do not want to hear that there is no way to ensure 100% that no one steals a truck and runs it into a lot of people. They do not want to hear that the risk of dying by falling in your own home is 20 times more likely to happen than being murdered (in Germany) – the most prevalent causes of death are cancer and cardiac diseases, which is 300 times more likely – and that even with IS actively recruiting stupid people to kill here, it’s much more likely to die in a normal car accident.
And so they listen to the snake oil sellers who promise them safety (no matter how or that the proposed method has already been tried without success). If we do not find a method to counter this, snake oil sellers will win elections.
In comic, we just saw Leslie try and fail to get a result. And she tried it on the snake oil seller’s apprentice.
I just hope she has the guts not to try and chase Robin again.
A possible next step in this arc is that Robin starts a crusade in her campaign, trying to root out Ryan (or, as she doesn’t know his name, the ‘date rapist’). Of course, there is always the suspicion hanging in the air that she’s doing this in an attempt to impress Leslie rather than any personal desire to clean house.
So I’m guessing Robin is one of those “I refuse to come to terms with my sexuality so I’m going to deny it by being incredibly homophobic” type of people.
Nah. I mean, she’s doing homophobic shit, but she doesn’t actually care about it, which bucks the stereotype entirely. She just didn’t care and wanted to be elected. And she lives where that’s what you do to be elected.
Like none of that is actually a good thing, but it bucks the stereotype since she’s not doing homophobic shit to cover for the fact that she’d like to fuck Leslie, she’s doing it because elections.
Leslie’s frustration here is just palpable. The knowledge that the person you were talking to about very emotional topics did not hear a single thing you said is maddening and soul-crushing. And she’s making the right call, Robin’s not worth her attention in this universe.
i kinda want to pretend those glasses are rose-tinted.
Come on Robin you can turn this around.
Maybe. If she stops saying the harmful shit she’s been saying. If she stops doing the harmful shit she’s doing. But Leslie’s self respect seems to have won.
I have faith. I think she will. But it’s going to take time.
I think it is very possible for Robin to do that, she seems to be more naive than outright bigoted and it seems she believes either the situation for gay people nor the homeless is as bad as it is and that people can suppress or substitute their sexuality like she can (even though she is only fooling herself). It may take time and some crucial events to happen but I certainly think Robin can grow into a respectable person worthy of Leslie’s love and not so toxic, at least I hope she can
Just because Robin likes Leslie doesn’t mean she’s likes women in general. It seems like Leslie has never heard of heteroflexible – one-offs can happen.
But its much more likely that Robin is bi with the main focus being on men.
Robin has said before she is not straight with an exception (which seems to match your definition of heteroflexible) in Shortpacked! and sexual orientations stay the same, so we’re going off that.
Robin said several different things about that, with a lot of denial involved. The last thing she said was that she was “kinda indefinably queer?” So that’s the most accurate answer we’ve ever gotten from her
Exactly, which is still not ‘straight with an exception’. She’s moved on from that.
She didn’t really have ‘one’ exception, so much as at least 3. She’s bi.
Exactly on the exceptions, though I’m happy to go with the label she chose for herself, as she didn’t seem to think bi fit very well.
Waitaminute.
She stole my glasses!
If you guys like long comments like Cerberus does, and you’re interested in Star Trek or in someone’s first reaction to shows he’s never seen (due to a repressive childhood) or books he’s never read, you should check into Mark Reads or Mark Watches.
As a bonus, he did the Twilight books and ripped them apart, which is how I got to know him. But now he does stuff that his audience knows he’ll like.
I love love love Mark Reads and have been using his stuff to get through the shittier part of my job.
Consider his work to have a big shiny Cerberus Seal of Approval on it.
I used to follow his stuff religiously and then I just sort of stopped a few years back and I can’t for the life of me remember why. Maybe just a lack of time.
Robin’s actively trying to ruin other people’s lives, so maybe go the other way with that and focus on how she’ll ruin her own.
Well done Leslie. I’m so glad we don’t have re-run of the Leslie as doormat again (at least I hope it won’t go that way)
One of the tropes I’ve always disliked is the one where if someone loves someone enough and waits around long enough then there’ll be a happy ending which to me seems quite unhealthy
Yeah.
Cause that trope is everywhere. The idea of the person whose love saves the violent and hateful person. And in reality, what usually happens is the person who thinks their love can “save” the other person just ends up getting abused and beaten down.
And even when the person they love isn’t evil or abusive or violent… even when that person just doesn’t feel the same way and very very probably never will…
…it’s still nothing but heartache and disappointment and frustration.
Beauty and the Beast anyone?
i don’t think Belle loved Beast until after he started getting his shit together. she stubbornly refused to be anything but herself, he gradually fell in love with her, started trying to behave better because he cared instead of just cuz he needed her, and only then did she start to fall for him. they could only get together after he decided her needs were more important than his own. (or rather, as important? and that he had no right to *demand* she sacrifice her needs, while he could *choose* to sacrifice his.)
I hope Robin loses. Not because of her politics (well, at least not primarily for her politics), but so she can come back to Leslie, no pressure. I still want them to happen, damnit!
I hope she loses for her politics because her politics are awful.
Shame it’s because her politics were awful that she was elected in the first place, it sets a standard for what the average voter in that area is like and why Robin is having such a hard time admitting her sexuality.
Which is weird cuz that district is actually back and forth between the two parties, so her seat isn’t actually as safe with ‘family values’ stuff as she might think.
I hope she changes her politics so she can be someone Leslie will vote for, and wins.
Doubt it, changing her policies to support gays is a kiss of death for her political career. She based her entire campaign around the idea of traditional families which is why her own sister make a sex tape was a political move. Unfortunately the majority of voters around her area are bigots but they’re the ones that keep her in office.
To change herself to keep Leslie happy is shooting herself in the foot, though I still want it to happen. I hope she loses so she has no need to keep up the charade.
Not changing herself to keep Leslie happy; changing herself because she’s decided that being someone that Leslie can respect and support makes her a better person, and she’d rather be a better person than be a Congresswoman.
And I’d like to see her make that decision when it’s actually meaningful, not after she’s lost despite choosing to be evil.
And ideally, I’d like to see her make the decision to be good, accepting that it will likely cost her her seat in Congress, and then win not despite but because of that, by picking up enough non-evil votes to offset the evil ones she’d lose. It’s not impossible; in real life, Robin’s district flip-flops between the parties pretty regularly.
Her politics make more people miserable than her love life. Win or lose, it should be on her politics. The problems of two people don’t amount to a hill of beans.
Could this be the beginning of a beautiful friendship?
But you can definitely count on her [innuendo] in your [entendre]!
To paraphrase the old joke “A Republic in name only is one who gets caught having sex with someone of the opposite gender”
Also that last panel lip curl is the the best thing in the comic for several months.