This scenario was *actually* about Ruth too, as opposed to Saraidah simply convincing themselves that it was. No, I don’t have any experience with codependent B.S. at all… (“people liked Dana” under her breath as her rebuttal?! Daaaaaammmmnnnn….)
Oh yeah, but maybe it will push Sarah to find out how Dana really is so we can know one way or the other. It sounds like an interesting story at least.
maybe from dina cause she probably would only hate her if she said dinosaurs were alive today and the dragons people claimed the saw. or something like that.
I feel like there should have been an extra panel between #5 and #6. The transition seems to have skipped a beat.
Going from Billie saying that Sarah hated her to Sarah saying it’s about Dana. The Jeopardy Answer should be why does Sarah hate Billie? Not why Billie hates Sarah.
That jab did seem to come out of the blue. There are some similarities, but there are significant differences between what happened with Ruth and what happened with Dana.
Billie had others who recognized that Ruth had a problem and needed help. She had support, backup to help her figure out the right thing to do.
Sarah was the only one who knew that Dana was at risk, everyone else was in denial. She was on her own and did the only thing she could think to do.
All things being equal, I think Just Me is on to something. I feel like Sarah was hostile towards Bille WAAAAAY before Billie was a Bingo towards Sarah.
When they first met, Billie reeked of alcohol and one of the first things she asked Sarah was if she knew of any good parties and in the same strip condescended to Joyce a.k.a. McRainbowTrianglegrin so she got off to a horrible start.
And since then has only shown Sarah further evidence that she is a terrible friend by getting drunk as a skunk when Joyce invited her to a party and disappearing practically 5 seconds after getting there – didn’t care about making sure Joyce was okay or anything at her first ever party, just straight into booze and gone to not be seen again until something’d already happened and then had the gall to accuse Sarah of just wanting Joyce gone when she wanted to report it to the police.
Additionally she has implied to Sarah directly that there is something wrong with Joyce for being conservative about how she dresses and well, not being interested in all the things she likes. That Joyce should look up to her as a role model.
Then there was that party that Becky organised where Billie SUPPLIED everyone with booze which was inconsiderate as hell as it was supposed to be a party for Joyce who obviously wouldn’t want that anywhere near her.
And even now, she’s showing anger towards Carla who not only was kind enough to freakin’ help her at all, but additionally didn’t know the full story and just took the quickest option to end all the fake bullshit and get Ruth legitimate help that a bag of cookies could never give her.
Sarah hasn’t been particularly friendly, she’s not that way with most people, but she does have a whole deck of cards to support exactly why she is not fond of Billie and I would understand if she never liked Billie because from her perspective, Billie has been a very bad friend, inconsiderate, judgemental, condescending and she hasn’t seen any of the progress we have seen.
Billie on the other hand, I can’t quite remember a specific incident that would have made her hate Sarah quite so much outside of her general unfriendliness and maybe a few rude quips and she told her the Dana story, so she knows why Sarah struggles opening up to people, and she has used that against her at least twice now.
So I’m kind of with Sarah where I understand why Sarah would hate Billie but not the reverse to this degree, WHICH MIGHT MEAN WE ARE LEADING INTO BILLIE STORY TIME SOON.
Also, please note much of what I have stated is purely from memory so there may be errors in precise details.
Billie is projecting her anger on Sarah for the exact reason she states in this very strip: what happened with Dana is similar, to an extent, to what happened with Ruth.
Yeah, I kinda…damn, I don’t like most of the characters in this webcomic. There’s just too many of them that are self-involved to the point of malice and pain for those around them.
I know Billie’s in a terrible place right now and is just lashing out, but it’s really nasty to give people (Sarah and now Carla, apparently) shit about doing what is necessary to SAVE PEOPLE’S LIVES. (Lookin’ at you too, Raidah.)
I’m starting to wonder whether or not this is going to lead to a reveal Sarah may have accidentally made things worse for Dana. The problem is I’m not sure what else she could have done.
I’m genuinely of the mind that she very much accidentally made things worse. The way that she hasn’t had contact with Dana, but those who are say she’s in a worse place now, the way she only said she missed her mom and had no words about her dad other than to get out of there as soon as possible.
And especially the way he just straight up showed up and yanked her out of school for smoking pot as if that is an atypical college experience or as if the school doesn’t have mental health resources for depression. Overall, it definitely struck all the chords of an abuser taking advantage of an opportunity of power over the person they were abusing (I see it regularly with students of mine who are being abused. Using drugs as an excuse for more control or as belated justification for physical violence has happened with two separate students so far).
I mean, Sarah couldn’t have known that and was genuinely trying to do the right thing, but I think she fucked up and the defensive side of her brain knows that (not that she’s gonna be in a mindset to admit that given that she’s been harassed for nearly a year over it by Dana’s other friends).
I’m not too sure whether or not this will be the case since Sarah did tell her dad Dana was an emotional wreck and he may have been waffling on whether a grieving Dana should return to school already. Plus Dana had just returned from her mom’s funeral when she only mentioned wanting her mom, which I think is natural since she still has her dad. That said, the parallels are starting to make me wonder if that is true.
I’m hoping we’ll get to meet Dana again and see what’s up. However, if Raidah was right and she holds that over Sarah’s head I will actually spit fire, because she didn’t lift a finger to help her friend out.
Sarah’s first inclination was to try to convince Dana to seek out a therapist. Her friends and her ex shot that idea down. We don’t know if she ever broached the subject to Dana, but if she did, Dana clearly did not make use of it. So if she’s not seeking help and she’s getting worse (and I do believe Sarah when she says she was spiralling far more than I’d trust Raidah in that case) there isn’t really much Sarah could do outside seek help from her dad or the school, neither of which would have ended well.
If she did accidentally make things worse, I feel even more awful for Sarah. She can’t let the situation stay the same but none of the solutions are good ones.
If she did make it worse, it’s even worse for her than that. Because not only are there few solutions to make things better for Dana or to rectify the situation, but Dana is going to be unlikely to accept offers from help from Sarah as she’s gonna feel betrayed by her.
It’s hard to live with a fuck-up you know made someone’s life worse.
I meant solutions at the time, but yes, there’s really no way to fix things now either.
Maybe I’m missing something but the only solutions I can think of are:
A) Keep offering support and waiting it out (not working, Dana was spiralling and getting worse)
B) Get her friends to help her (She tried, it didn’t work.)
C) Get Dana to a therapist (If she tried, she was likely unsuccessful. Regardless, this one depends on Dana agreeing – Sarah can’t force her, and this could potentially get her kicked out if she’s found to possess illegal drugs)
D) Alert the RA (Potentially busts Dana and sends her either home or to involuntary therapy which would probably not help, and her dad would probably eventually find out)
E) Report this to the school (Same issue with probably contacting the RA, probably not helpful with Dana and potentially get her kicked out of school)
F) Call the cops (Noooooooo nononono, not unless the end goal is to send Dana to jail/legal trouble/get her kicked out of school)
G) Contact her dad (which in this hypothetical scenario is a bad idea because he’s a shitstain)
Without all the information, G seems the most innocuous. I may be missing other potential solutions, but it really looks like she was caught between a rock and a hard place with regards to how to help Dana.
Health Services, possibly being put on Involuntary Hold if she was a genuine danger to herself.
Would have connected her to a therapist who would not report back home what’s going on, because Dana would be a legal adult and psychological services are confidential. This would have given Dana someone to talk to about stuff, instead of just dumping it all on Sarah as it was this aspect of that time that was most fucking with Sarah.
Don’t blame her for not seeing that option as a Freshman kid who thought it was all on them to fix Dana themselves*, but contacting home was definitely a nuclear option that was wholly unnecessary.
*Sarah massively has a savior complex which can be a complete massive shitshow to deal with.
Again, though, Sarah did recommend that and she either got turned down by Dana or Dana’s (so-called) friends steered her away from that as an option. The problem isn’t that she didn’t see it, the problem is nobody else was willing to take that up as a good idea and so it either got dropped or rejected.
The thing to remember is that she was a freshman at the time, and she probably could have told the RA instead of her dad yes, but the thing is RAs and psychologists in general are mandatory reporters anyway. so if it had gotten to the point where Dana needed inpatient treatment because she literally couldn’t function. Any treatment that required money, unless Dana was independent , would have required her dad’s knowledge/insurance.
Sarah did the best she could under the circumstances. She might not have understood everything, but she did the best she could. Sometimes you’re too sick to understand how sick you are until someone has to point it out. And she was being affected by it as well, with her grades and not sleeping well is also awful on the mind and body. Also, I don’t think we’re too sure Dana’s dad is terrible, unless I recalled incorrectly.
So in short, if Dana ended up being treated, then i don’t think Sarah made it worse, and I’m really not sure what else she could have done besides going through actual school channels. To be real, a lot of freshmen forget that the school has those kind of resources in their first plac (coupled with stigma and fear), which is why a lot of cases go untreated until they hit crisis mode.
Oh I agree that I don’t blame Sarah for trying her best. She did what she thought was best with the information she had.
But you can still put someone in a bad place with good intentions and I think what’s interesting is that Sarah’s guilt isn’t so sure she really did the best thing here.
And there’s something to be said for forgiving yourself for entering into something with the best of intentions but screwing up on what was the best option because you were young and scared and trying to do the right thing.
And I think it is this part that will be Sarah’s next growth, because it’s something do-gooder types have to deal with eventually, because eventually they’re going to try and help someone and actually make a situation worse and learning to deal with that healthily is part of growing up.
So, just from rereading the whole deal, there doesn’t seem to be anything that really implies her dad is abusive. Sarah feels she made everything worse, but that’s someone looking back at a rash decision with hindsight. But that interpretation could just come from not having had abusive parents.
Okay, I have to retract my comment partially, I was only looking at the flashback as Sarah cleared things up. There is at one point where Raidah implies she talked to Dana, but it’s still kind of… It’s Raidah talking to Sarah, Raidah could be trying to take the high ground on nothing or she doesn’t want to admit to herself that Dana is getting better at home.
There’s also the fact Dana never mentions her dad and her dad’s first reaction is to yank her out of school rather than talk to her, send her to a counsellor, etc.
Cereberus Usually you are spot on with your comments I think.
But, I believe you are way off base on this one.
Dana was more than “a pot smoker”, she was a druggie: she used to the point that she was screwing up her classes and was very much showing signs of depression.
Sarah had no desire to ‘fix up Dana herself”. Sarah went to Rideah, Dana’s so called best friend and told her that Dana was in trouble and that maybe Rideah and her posse could do something, like talk to Dana. Rideah told Sarah to mind her own damn business, more or less.
Sarah has never, to my knowledge,”had a massive savior complex”- just the opposite. She never was written as a people person, Sarah was interested in only one thing: keeping her grades up so she did not lose her scholarship so she could become a lawyer.
Dana was a threat in 2 ways to her goal. She disrupted Sarah’s study time, and she could get them both kicked out of college if caught doping it up in the dorms.
Sarah did not make it worse. She called Dana’s parents, her father came and got her. By removing her from school, she wasn’t noted in the records as being taken out to be treated for using.
I really think Sarah used good judgement. She tried to get her friends to help. She tried to talk to Dana. She could have brought the school in on it, but that could have gotten Dana kicked out, which happens more than offering help does.
Sarah did what she could to help Dana and cover her own ass at the same time. I don’t believe she made anything that was going on ‘worse’. If Dana did o.d. that would be a lot worse.
If Dana did have an abusive parent then it was up to her to get an education to have a chance to get away from it, or to seek help from a councilor. This is not something Sarah could be held to account for.
Sarah did not deserve the shit storm she stirred up against herself. That is when she pulled in to self even further and decided to Hell with the dorm, the books were all that counted.
Like, the whole “she’s a druggie” argument really falls flat when we note that the drug she was on was pot. She was never going to overdose. Her “addiction” would be considered medicinal in several states. And there was definitely no reason for her dad to yank her out of school and put her through a severe “detoxing” to cleanse her of “pot’s bad effects”.
And that’s why I really think Dana’s home was abusive. Because the parents I see who use moral-panics about “pot addiction” as a means of control over their kids tend to be the parents who give their kids a black eye when they come onto campus.
And an abused kid is gonna be more likely to turn to pot because a) pot is an anti-anxiety medication which can help with the fear and panic surviving abuse stir up and b) pot can numb you out to the pain of being beaten up or abused. And I mean that both physically and emotionally. I’ve known potheads who were being beaten up by family members who used pot to soothe the physical pain of the wounds while also numbing out to what the abuse meant so they didn’t slip entirely into a spiral.
There was no reason for her dad to react this way unless he was looking for an excuse to bring Dana back under his control. Especially since again, the drug was pot. Pot is exceedingly common on college campuses and most folks at this point report using pot sometime in their youth, especially during college.
Yeah, but Dana wasn’t “just using pot.” She had become so depressed she was using it CONSTANTLY, bottling up her emotions in front of her friend and doing nothing but smoking when she was alone. That’s a problem. It may not be a problem because of the drug she’s chosen, but it’s a pretty serious problem nonetheless.
Indeed it is. She needed psychological help desperately for those underlying problems.
And she was lucky that the drug she was using to numb her out has less risk of overdose or long-term damage than most other drugs she could have used, but that behavior definitely was worrisome.
Okay, time out. Yes, Dana was using drugs to self-medicate and that can make her immensely worse. However, the only drug we know of her using is weed. She is not going to o.d. on weed – at least not fatally. Weed overdoses are characterized by acute pain, hallucinating and anxiety aka ‘greening out’. Dying? No, not really. You also need to be using a hell of a lot at once. The odds of mental addiction are no higher than, say, shopping or gambling (though I would say it is possible Dana fell into that due to how much she was depending on it) and physical addiction is incredibly rare, she would be more likely to get addicted to booze or cigarettes. If the risk was od-ing, she’d have to be hitting stronger stuff for that to be a very real concern. I’m not going to argue whether weed is right or wrong, but as an addictive/o.d. concern, that isn’t very likely. Sarah was worried Dana was going to die, yes, but I think she was concerned she was going to kill herself, not that she was going to od.
Sarah likes to say she doesn’t care, but then she ends up trying to help out anyways – Joyce, Dina and yeah, Dana.
Also, she was already a misanthrope by that point. Dana did not cause that, though she probably did make it worse.
And while not being dead is a good thing, if Sarah really DID send her back to an abusive home, then yes, she made Dana’s situation worse, albeit unintentionally. We do not, in fact, know Dana is being treated for her depression by her dad. It is entirely possible she’s still depressed, and now without her friends (or even her bad coping mechanism) and with the addition of an awful dad. Better than dead, sure, debatably, but worse than she was? Yes.
Using drugs as an excuse for more control or as belated justification for physical violence is something that happens in the adult world all the time. It’s a useful, though morally terrible, lesson to those who it concerns. “Pick your dealers wisely” and whatnot.
If what you say is true, then Sarah didn’t fuck up.
Plus, we don’t know really anything about Dana, since our only way of getting information is from Reidah, who we already saw massage the truth to make Sarah out to be a horrible person when it was Reidah who bullied Sarah.
Plus we know Reidah is a bigot towards the mentally ill, given the way she treated Dina when she thought she must have a mental problem. So we don’t even know if she accepts anything about depression at all.
Yes, Sarah questions whether she did the right thing. But I really can’t come up with a way that she didn’t. With Carla there’s an argument, since she was stupid in the way she went about it, making it all public, without checking with anyone.
Sarah talked to Dana, and she ignored her Then she told her friends, and they blew her off. She then told the people you’re supposed to tell. If that resulted in something bad for Dana, that’s not Sarah’s fault.
Reidah wants her to feel bad, because Reidah is a bully. For all we know, Dana actually is better, but Reidah’s upset because she’s not at college or no longer her drug friend. I think that, if it was an abusive situation, that’s something Reidah would have rubbed in Sarah’s face to make her feel bad.
I dunno, Raidah is a bully, yes, absolutely, 100%, but she’s not a sociopath. In her own way, she thinks she’s doing right and tries to make what she thinks are healthy choices. And at the time of that comment, she was having a genuine and real conversation with Sarah and had little reason to lie to her to make her feel bad, simply because if she wanted to harass or abuse her, she had a much better tool*.
Plus, as I said earlier, I see a lot of red flags in Dana’s story that are similar to my students who are being abused at home. So Raidah’s comment seems immensely believable to me and seems more and more accurate as the narrative is starting to draw direct parallels between Dana’s situation and Ruth’s.
*Sarah had just physically assaulted her and Raidah herself points out she thought Sarah’s apology was because she realized that Raidah could have fucked her over immensely because of that.
I intensely dislike Raidah for her condescension towards Dina, but I have to agree, her ignorance is not incurable. Underneath she seems like she could be a genuinely good person.
I actually wouldn’t mind if at some point she and Sarah were able to reconcile, somehow. Especially if she apologizes to Dina at the start of it. Or better yet she gets sassed by Dina the throughout the arc.
Sarah and Raidah, as well as Billie and Carla, were complex situations where there really wasn’t a single good answer without considerable drawbacks. Even the optimal solution in either case could have had negative repercussions.
We’re talking about inexperienced teenagers and nuanced, emotionally charged situations with high stakes and where the person taking action did not have all the relevant information. It was highly unlikely that Sarah or Carla would have learned that information in the time they had to decide, since they wouldn’t have known the questions to ask. Nor was it likely they could have convinced the people who did know to take action.
As such I think it’s unreasonable to treat either situation like there it was black-and-white on any level. Even if neither Sarah nor Carla made an optimal decision about what to do, both of them had to do something, and made the best choice they were able, give their knowledge, experience, and emotional state.
Neither of them (or Raidah or Billie) was 100% right or 100% wrong. All parties involved should receive hugs.
This! Maybe minus the reconciliation considering the year long bullying and harassment. I have a low tolerance for post-bullying reconciliation, but I suppose they could potentially be done well.
As do I, but Raidah has already deescalated since Sarah punched her, so now they simply avoid each other in a more civil manner. Considering how out of line — albeit satisfying — the punch was, it seems to suggest Raidah recognizes on some level that she’s been an asshole.
Plus Dina sass is top quality.
Char and Chan can probably still die in a fire, though.
as much as you may hate it sometimes what seems bad now is for the best.
like when someone on wow i sent all my gold to since “i wouldn’t need it” and a few other words was decoded and well got me in inpatient when i was really……. dark.
a guild mate of mine actually posted a picture of a slip knot on the guid forums, along with a goodbye note. we sent the police to his house and fortunately it wasn’t too late. this happened about eight years ago and we’re still best friends. he’s finishing his computer science degree now, and has a lot of new friends at uni.
the police ended up called as a result of mine too. Later she made a wow comic idea i had into one of the ones she put on her comic site thing even which felt kinda nice
I forget, has Sarah actually shown any particular animosity towards Billie beyond her usual level of misanthropy, or is Billie just saying that to help justify to herself using Sarah as the target for venting her frustration?
Straight-up slut-shaming where she says she doesn’t care if Billie gets wasted and pregnant (there’s a whole consent minefield in that construction that I don’t even want to begin tackling, especially given Billie’s understanding of drunkenness and consent at the time) and then openly says she is intending to burn bridges by her interactions with her: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/bridges/
But that was short-lived beyond that evening. Next interaction of theirs, she was saying “too bad” to Billie and Ruth not getting into a fight (up until now every “fight” Ruth and Billie got into ended up with Billie getting her ass beat in): http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/04-time-keeps-on-slippin/bummer/
Cerberus, I think you are heavily weighted against Sarah in everyone of your examples.
-Billie was hungover, and Sarah doesn’t like drunks. For that matter, neither do I.
Sarah is not ‘slut shaming’ Billie. She is stating that she does not care how Billie acts at the party but that she doesn’t want that to happen to Joyce. Keep in mind, Joyce has no clue what can happen to her (and ends up finding out the hard way later on) and Sarah doesn’t think kegger party is a good place to learn.
I think you lost sight of the fact that Sarah has every right to dislike who she pleases. She is rude to Billie, yes, but Billie seems to take it as joking around and answers in kind when she brags about her sexy shirt for the party.
-In the remark that Sarah makes to Billie asking if this last argument between her and Ruth drew blood? and then commenting ‘Too bad’, was rude. And the first time I noted an actual nasty comment. As far as drawing blood, Ruth never hit Billie after she tackled her the first time. Billie never showed signs of physical abuse. They treated each other bad enough with their drinking and enabling each other.
-You next state that “everyone knows that Sarah regards Billie in a slut shaming mode”…you’re wrong. I don’t know that. I don’t believe it either. Sarah does not care enough what Billie does to regard her in any way except in her influence on Joyce. And Sarah picturing Joyce in cheer gear if she goes shopping with Billie, is really pushing the slut shaming expression to the limit, imo.
-The next example with the baseball bat? Sarah is not threatening anyone, she is reminding Joyce that she really will be there for her if she needs her to be there, and the bat is proof of that -she really was there for Joyce the night of the kegger when Joyce was almost raped.
Imo, you are looking for reasons to bang on Sarah. I think Sarah has no more that openly let Billie know that she does not like her, and why -her drinking and partying. She thinks, and says, that Billie is a HS party girl.
Sarah is all for studying and being responsible, she thinks Billie is neither.
The only time Sarah was out rude was when she hurt Billie’s feelings with the ‘no blood’ remark.
Well, I mean, if it needs to be said explicitly, I actually really like Sarah. I have a soft-spot for soft-hearted curmudgeons, the point was more about this:
“Has Sarah given the impression to Billie that she doesn’t like her? And does Billie have a point in viewing Sarah as having a problem with her?”
And well, yeah, very much so. As you note, Sarah has been rude to her face and does not at all get along with Billie’s personality type and has made no secret of hiding it.
So yeah, she’s totally allowed to dislike anyone for any reason and that’s valid, but Billie is also allowed to notice that dislike and bring it up.
P.S. Minor note, in the baseball bat strip I cited, I wasn’t thinking of the baseball bat part but rather the first panel where she’s like, I don’t want to go clothes shopping but I’ll go along if it keeps you from hanging alone with Billie which again communicates how little she regards Billie and how little she trusts Billie and how toxic she views her company.
I think your third paragraph is a good point, but I also would like to point out that Billie is rude to a lot of people she knows on a regular basis, and Sarah being who she is, has probably noticed it – at this point that neither Sarah nor Billie can realize how their actions appear to others. Its actually interesting and surprising to me that Billie doesn’t seem to realize being a jerk to people can, well, make people think you’re a jerk – even people who might not know you but can see your actions.
I think that what brought that on was Sarah costing Billie the chance to make friends with Raidah and her sophomore friends, which would have allowed Billie to re-establish herself as part of a clique of popular girls.
And that Sarah and Billie’s personalities have never seemed to mesh well.
Yeah here we go…and you know what to be honest no one checked in on Dana ever since she was sent home, for people who seemed to care about her so damn much it’s odd you didn’t bother to pick up a damn phone and check up on her afterwords.
“Not according to Dana last time I checked.” Is what Raidah says.
The implication is she contacted Dana, but she could just be going off on how “Dana was getting better.” And Sarah sending her home kept her from the people helping her get better.
I said as much, but in regards to Carla. While nobody likes a snitch nobody liked Ruth except Billie and since the floor might get a more likable RA then Carla will merely be disliked for being a jerk.
Carla fucked up in a lot of ways in how she decided to deal with things (chief among them being forcibly outing Ruth and Billie), but I’m not sure I’d call her a snitch.
I’m confused, why would Sarah have hated Billie from the get go because of Dana, or judging by how Sarah worded it, because of what Sarah did for/to Dana when Sarah and Bille met, which was weeks before now, right??
I might check the tags later to confirm, but I do get the sense that Sarah was unnecessarily antagonistic to Billie for a long time. Something that stuck out at me was Sarah’s line “Billie get prepared for a compliment” when Billie helped recognize the signs of a roofie at that party. Like damn Sarah, why you hate Billie so much?
(tags may confirm it was Sarah’s general misanthrophy rather than something Billie did particularly)
Panels 1-3: Awwwww, they’re smiling at each other here. It really meant a lot to both of them to do this. For Sarah to be invited and for Joyce to have her roommate big sis join her support network in a more formal way.
They’re building something better together and that’s awesome to see.
But yeah, the real meat is in the second half, cause, ooh boy, I’m feeling like I’m gonna be speculation city over what this says about where Sarah’s head is at.
Panel 5: Billie’s got a hell of a point here. Sarah has antagonized Billie since her first formal introduction to her. Openly and to her face, demeaning the value of her company, slut-shaming her for being a party girl and wishing ill on her, and openly viewing her company as something corrupting and toxic. Which gets really dark when you realize how much she’s internalized the idea that she’s poison that destroys everything she touches.
Billie is right to be like, fuck you too, even though I think she was way out of line with that nasty comment at Sarah about Dana on the walk over. And she’s right to call that out, especially when Sarah is fronting like this is some one-sided dislike that Billie started.
Panel 6: And her response is fascinating, because she instantly ignores the argument with actual substance to jump to an argument where she is no longer feeling in a vulnerable position.
Between Billies snap at Joyce and this outlash at Sarah it feels to me like she is done pulling punches. She tried to help and do something good and that lead to absolutely nothing so she can just as well be the worthless bully everyone thinks she is (according to her inner voice).
Like Walky said, high school Billie is back. Hoooray…
Interesting observation about Sarah’s immediate deflection. But if that is what she was going for (and I think you and Dina are right on the mark about that one), she REALLY effed up in finding safe ground here.
Billie and Sarah have both faced the same impossible, horrible situation. They both have had to act with limited information and agency, and neither is sure they made the right choice. They made the opposite choice, and where Sarah saw her choice solve the situation (yay…) Billie saw her choice taken from her (double way…).
Even without their history, that would just plain hurt too much for them to be even close to friendly
I really cannot see where Sarah is slut-shaming Billie. She reacts to Billie reeking of alcohol from the first and makes it quite clear she’d prefer all drinking partygoers to dead. Or at least very,very far away from her.
This is not slut-shaming. This is seeing something that threatens your well-being and being threatening in return. What she is saying again and again is “I don’t care if you ruin your own life but I will hurt you if you start to ruin mine.”
Billie might have gotten it wrong though, I strongly doubt she knows Sarah smells the alcohol on her, so to her this might be anything, even racist behavior.
Indeed, she dislikes the alcohol part, but she brings up sexual aspects of that party girl life in her dislike. Most prominently saying she wouldn’t care if Billie wound up pregnant from a night out partying which… pregnancy as punishment… kinda awful. And again when she imagines Joyce after Billie’s company and imagines a stereotypical “sexy halloween costume” idea of cheerleader with a sexually suggestive phrase on the top.
Like, growing up in this culture, it’s hard not to grow up with negative views towards sexually active women, but Sarah has definitely let that aspect color how she interprets Billie’s party girl persona.
Billie’s a bit more than “sexually active”. Or at least presented that image – as far as we know she’s only been with Ruth so far at school.
But “I have this top that practically begs for that. You know, for when I’m not sober enough to beg for it myself.”?
Even if that’s her exaggerating to make fun of Sarah’s attitude, it’s still basically a joke about wanting to be raped.
I’ve got no problems with sexually active women, but I’ve got problems with that. I mean, do your thing, but I’m not likely to hang out with you.
Billie is NOT right. Because of the thing she said with Dana. She’s now excusing that behavior by saying that Sarah has been mean to her.
Sarah didn’t front anything. She asked about why Billie was being mean to her. Billie, rather than address that, turned it around on her, attacking her, as if any of how she’s acted justified what Billie had just done.
So Sarah actually showed some insight and talked about something else. And Billie’s response shows that was the real issue. She’s lashing out over what happened to Ruth. She sees Sarah as the same type of person.
Billie was the one trying to avoid talking about the real problem. She used a classic blame shifting tactic. Sarah figured out the real problem.
Oh I agree on that. Billie is also avoiding thinking about things and very much blames herself for like 12 different things.
But I don’t blame her for responding incredulously to Sarah’s “what’s your problem” because yeah to Billie, it is a bizarre question. She tried to be nice once upon a time, Sarah was repeatedly cruel to her and so now they stay out of each other’s way. And yeah, Billie was way out of line with her Dana comment, but her face in Panel 5 is more “seriously?” than “how can I dodge responsibility for my actions?”.
Sarah’s roommate last year, had a bad time after her mom died. Sarah either intervened to save her life, or threw her away to the wolves because she was in the way. Depends who you ask.
Panel 6 continued: But the most glaring example would be her interaction with Raidah wherein Raidah openly states that Dana is not actually in a better place due to Sarah’s actions and this information is from a source Sarah has actively avoided contacting to check up on: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/06-strange-beerfellows/absolve/
And part of the reason for this evasion makes sense given that Raidah and her crew have been harassing Sarah for nearly a year over supposed wrongdoing which is gonna make anyone defensive and likely to equate being called out on something vulnerable as a potential attack.
But the other half shows Sarah’s personal flaw and that is her tendency to go on the attack and push back on people when she feels vulnerable. Some of it is sniping, some of it is sowing seeds of doubt in people’s relationships, some of it is deflecting actual criticisms of her direct behavior by shaping it into something she can feel aggrieved by.
And that’s the biggest glaring piece of this panel. What Billie said in Panel 5 had nothing to do with Dana. Didn’t even once mention Dana. Didn’t bring it up in any way. But Sarah immediately jumped to Dana and saying it was all about Dana. And that’s fascinating because I dated someone for awhile who was similarly evasive about things she actually did wrong and would try and immediately jump to a topic she felt she had an advantage on and try and tie the conversation to that.
So a discussion about a behavior that wasn’t right would morph around to one that didn’t mean having to admit fault or make any adjustments to behavior in any meaningful way and that usually meant gaslighting and refusing to discuss the actual behavior that hurt me.
And well, Sarah’s dodge here reminds me a lot about it especially since it’s a good dodge. Billie does also have feelings about the way Sarah handled Dana especially with regards to her negative feelings towards Carla outing her and Ruth.
As we see in Billie’s response.
And the thing is, that whole “home” thing was probably bullshit both times. Ruth wouldn’t have been safe at home. Dana is unlikely to be safe at home. Both would have (and Ruth is likely to) benefit from Psychological Health Services from the college instead of that.
Panel 7: Though, hey, points to Sarah for not going for that particular low blow in anything but a soft whisper because that would have likely set off Billie and justifiably so.
Though her initial loud part sounds like denial. Like, she doesn’t want to know if Dana’s home life was abusive and unhealthy, because she doesn’t want to actually review her actions with any form of doubt. And she doesn’t want to draw the connection between Ruth and Dana because it might make her realize there was another option besides calling home to get Dana’s depression treated.
That she didn’t need to drain herself being a personal unpaid therapist until she was at the end of the rope, but could have contacted Health Services for some help.
And I’m suspecting that possible different route is something Sarah is really gonna have to grapple with this arc as she learns how to healthily process guilt and second-guessing past actions without turning self-abusive with it.
1) Sarah DID recommend Health Services for Dana. She got into an argument with Dana’s friends over whether or not it was a good idea to try to get her into therapy. Either they convinced her not to, or she tried to talk to Dana about it and she didn’t go for it. But her first instinct was ‘Get Dana a therapist’. It was after that idea passed and Dana spiralled even more that she called Dana’s dad.
B) She didn’t say it was all about Dana, she asked if that’s what that was about because, while Billie is absolutely right to call her on how she treats Billie, Billie is also acting crankier with Sarah than usual, and she DID snipe about Dana earlier, making it not an unreasonable conclusion to draw. That said, Sarah totally does do avoid subjects like that and I’m sorry it brought up bad memories. That should not have happened to you and I hope you’re in a better place now.
Agree with this. If Dana didn’t want to go to health services, she wouldn’t have unless she was suicidal or otherwise in danger of hurting herself. She felt fine trying to self medicate and spiraling, her friends felt she was fine, Sarah was stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I think the issue of home is more of a structural problem than a personal one-this is what I mean:
Many students with severe issues like Dana, although they contact health services, end up being sent home/on indefinite leave anyway. As I mentioned in a previous thread, the way many colleges and universities handle mental health is great, but also a shitshow in a lot of ways. So if a student is completely nonfunctional, there’s a good chance they’ll end up at home anyway. This is because, to my knowledge, there’s very little chance of the student taking a break from classes and still being on campus anyway.
With a few exceptions, at most universities/colleges, either you’re enrolled as a full time student, or you go home, barring any special accomodations. These don’t usually include mental health disorders, and they usually don’t mean that you can shave off your class load to below part time or 0 so you can recuperate. If you want to live on campus and benefit from its resources, you must also be enrolled full time, which makes it even harder for students coping with physical and mental disorders.
I do think it will be interesting for Sarah, who clings to her sense of morality as a means of self worth, grappling with the fact that sometimes we make the “right” choice and it doesn’t always work out. And the fact that just by existing, you have an effect on people (her relationship to Joyce) let alone making decisions that directly affect them (Dana) .
One thing. “she wouldn’t have unless she was suicidal or otherwise in danger of hurting herself.” No guarantee that would’ve happened either. Yes, that’s what you’re supposed to do. But by the time you get to that place, odds are “get help” isn’t so much on your mind. You’re not in control anymore.
I think Mav meant Dana wouldn’t be involuntarily held unless she was suicidal or otherwise in danger of hurting herself, not that Dana wouldn’t seek help.
While Billie didn’t say anything about Dana here, she did attack Sarah with that a couple strips (and a few minutes) back. Not surprising it’s on Sarah’s mind.
I think you’re on the right track about Sarah’s deflection and attack. It seems a pretty common tactic for her.
I’m not sold on the Dana’s abusive family theory. It’s possible, but the clues are pretty sketchy at this point.
And I really don’t see how getting Dana into campus therapy would have been possible, without her consent. Unlike Ruth, Dana wasn’t lying on her bed unresponsive. She was still putting up a front. As far as we know at least, since we haven’t seen as much. Case like that, the roommate going to Health Services isn’t going to get very far. They might come talk to Dana, but she’d likely convince them she’s not in immediate danger and they couldn’t do anything. She could have turned her in for the drugs, but that’s likely worse that contacting the father.
And either would have burned any trust as thoroughly as what she actually did.
To add to those above, I’m not sure how much stock I put in Raidah checking up, or on Dana’s own feelings on whether she’s better off or not. We don’t know when ‘last I checked’ was – it may well have been shortly after Dana’s father came for her. ‘Last I checked’ could well be ‘that BONGO Sarah better get what’s coming to her, I was going to be fine, you know I wasn’t having problems and you know me a lot better than she did’ just to avoid admitting that yes, she was having severe problems. Heck, ‘last I checked’ could be before Dana even left, and Raidah could mean ‘well, I don’t see that Dana was EVER having problems to the extent you claim’. We don’t know. (Note: I don’t think Raidah is flat out lying and that ‘last I checked’ is an outright fabrication, I think that would be out of character for her. I do think that it would be in character for her to take one data point, her perception in the moment, and reason from there to a conclusion, as she did with Dina.)
And I personally think that ‘we don’t know’ is at least part of the point. Short of Dana actually showing up and telling us, we don’t actually know where her head is at now or what’s going on with her. We have Raidah’s information, but we have no way of knowing how current/dated that is or even how truthful that is. We have no solid information about Dana’s home situation apart from ‘she loved her mom and her mom died’. So we, and Sarah, may never know whether or not what Sarah did actually worked out for the best for Dana. All we know is what she and others believe to be true.
“Last I checked” can also be used figuratively, meaning “This is an obvious point.” “Not according to Dana, last I checked” could mean, “I’ve been in touch with her and she’s miserable.” or “I do not see how this could possibly be better.'”
The ‘Not According to Dana” part makes me a little more likely to think she’s had some sort of contact, but I also do see it as very possible that Raidah is operating off of a limited data sample and may be in error.
I do hope this is something we get back to, though.
And for Sarah’s sake, I hope that the previous suggestions of an abusive father, etc. are not true. I honestly want it acknowledged that she did the best she could given the data she had, after exercising less drastic options to no avail. If Raidah’s words are indicating that her life post-removal is miserable for reasons outside of the embarrassment of being removed from college and having to wrestle with the issues she was self-medicating, then regardless of Sarah’s intentions (which I continue to believe in), it’s a post facto condemnation of her decision.
Also, I don’t feel like a third or fourth abusive father in this story.
They’d either get along great with their similarly dour ways of looking at the world or they’d bitterly fight due to their fundamental disconnect on authority (Carla viewing it as hostile to worthless and Sarah viewing it as a potential force for good).
Maybe there is hope for these two meeting on neutral grounds yet.
Sarah may be able to see Billie as more than the HS mentality cheerleader drunk. Sarah never hated her, she just can’t be bothered with people who have a chance for an education, and throw it away. And screw up their minds with dope/booze.
Billie may be able to see Sarah as more than the rumors about her that have circulated since Dana. And maybe understand why Sarah has treated her with distain. Sarah doesn’t hate her, it is not personal, it’s all on her behavior.
So far Billie has had no reason to really care one way or other what Sarah thinks. Nor, has Sarah. they only inter-acted through Joyce. And Joyce has been expanding her circle of experience.
They don’t travel in the same circles. That may be changing.
And Carla was also right. You forced a serious problem that you couldn’t deal with yourself onto her plate and she dealt with it the best she could you don’t get to bongo and moan about it.
No, she wasn’t, and no she didn’t. Carla was rash, and took on more responsibility than she was asked. She was asked to watch Ruth. That was it. She thought she could force them back together and fix the problem, and that failed.
She was well-meaning, but she fucked up. She didn’t check with either person before making her move.
And the beauty of Sarah’s arc especially and probably Carla and Billie’s arcs in part is that you can do “the right action”, something meant to help that seems to make perfect sense given the information you have, which nonetheless puts someone in a bad spot you didn’t intend or consider.
And that’s okay. Sometimes that happens and I think Sarah’s path is going to be recognizing that and accepting that and learning from it and becoming a better lawyer because of it.
Sometimes a good action has unintended consequences and it’s good to recognize that and forgive yourself, as hard as that might be. And to take what you need not to fuck up in that way again. And even to recognize that some problems have no solutions without consequences (I’d argue Ruth was this as even the state she’s in which is probably the best she could be in still will likely come with consequences with her job and thus her ability to stave off her abusive grandpa.
If it helps, Cerberus is already my Internet Ambassador for Goodwill and Understanding Each Other. She even has a +6 Staff of Seeing Others as Human Beings (Save at -10 or realize that maybe you’d actually consider doing better as a person) that comes with the job. The +6 is for the occasions when people just don’t try to do better after all.
It’s nerf-tipped, though, so it mostly hurts your ego to be boinked with it.
Nope and nope. Implicit in a request to watch someone is the instruction to prevent anything bad from happening to them. It is beyond unreasonable to expect someone to see that a person is suicidal and not do something about it.
Billie’s plan to “keep an eye on her” was NOT WORKING. What went down should have happened in a less public way, but that isn’t what Billie’s complaining about here. She isn’t saying that Sarah got Dana help in the wrong way, she’s saying Sarah shouldn’t have gotten her help at all.
She didn’t have all the facts, but I disagree that she fucked up. Ruth was spiralling and Billie was enabling, and neither was in a position to do what would actually lead to Ruth continuing to be alive.
Ruth is getting help now. She might lose her job, Or she might not. It honestly probably depends on how she responds to treatment. Universities usually take mental illness pretty seriously.
She checked with them. Ruth was damn near unresponsive and only said dying “sounds nice”. She went to Billie and Billie just said that seemed normal.
What the hell are you supposed to do at that point? “Oh. Fine. Have fun dying.”
She was even trying just to push Billie to handle it, rather than involve authorities. Would have been better to avoid directly outing them, I suppose. Though Billie made no real secret of her interest in girls, so it’s more outing the relationship than outing an orientation.
Sarah didn’t do anything to Ruth. But she blew the whistle on the extent of Dina’s troubles, leading to Dina leaving. The parallel with the revelations of Ruth’s troubles (and possibly, Ruth leaving) are apparent to both Billie and Sarah — although Sarah wants to disassociate herself from them.
Dana’s almost exactly like Ruth – they’re both people who had clearly dangerous problems that their social circle was not solving (and arguably making worse), and someone called for help which, based on all the knowledge they had, was the best way to get them help.
The main difference is in Ruth’s case, Billie could have told Carla more infromation and didn’t until after Carla took action.
Huh. As shitty & combative as Billie is being towards Sarah, at least she’s willing to TALK to her. Which kinda makes sense – Sarah is the only one of their group not responding to her pain by being overly nice, which can feel like being mocked.
…..Or she could just be an easy target for Billie to verbally pile onto.
Does “Water Fountain” sound like an excuse to anyone else?
I’m a little worried about Billie showing no signs of alcohol withdrawal. We’ve seen them with Ruth before, but never with Billie. Largely because Billie’s never actually stopped drinking before.
I wonder if she really has this time either.
Yeah, I’m gonna guess she’s still imbibing and I think you’re right that she slipped into the bathroom for a little nip from a flask or a bottle as she may not have gotten the chance to drink last night.
It’s implied, a couple strips later (and maybe in the expression then), that the “bleah” is a reaction to Billie smelling “like a frathouse party”.
Alcohol, I assume.
So I know this isn’t an appropriate place to ask this but I kind of need to hear from someone and I don’t know how to feel.
So I had a chat tonight with someone I dearly trust and they told me that if I attempted to enter a relationship with someone then, by doing so, I would be no better than my abuser, and that I would be doomed to repeat the patterns they fell into and that I would enact them onto my partner because I haven’t dealt with my own issues yet.
I don’t know I’m not feeling okay right now and I always felt this way but I never wanted to think it as true but I feel like it has to be true about me now that it’s been confirmed by a third party.
Like I always thought “to broken to be with someone” was bullshit but now I don’t know. What if I do end up repeating the same things I went through onto someone else.
I don’t have first-hand experience with depression or abuse — and not much more with dating, to be honest — but I can’t agree with that friend of yours.
I don’t know you, apart from having read a number of your comments, and I don’t know your situation, but I feel very certain that no matter what you’re going through, you absolutely deserve to seek — and hopefully find — love, the same as everyone.
I think there are definitely times where it is wiser when dealing emotional turmoil and past trauma to learn to manage those things in a healthy manner, to prioritize on your own immediate emotional health first before your love life, but that’s a practical concern, not a moral one. If you feel you can handle rejection, and the time and energy required if things go well, then you should go for it. It doesn’t make you a bad or irresponsible person to do so. I’m far more worried about that your fear of repeating the pattern will make you unhappy than I am that you’ll actually repeat it.
I also think these would be good concerns to bring up with the counselor you mentioned you were going to see, or perhaps a survivors’ support group, if there is one nearby.
First, I’m sorry you’re not feeling too well right now emotionally.
Having experienced abuse myself as well, I think there is a nuance to these things in the sense that if everyone waited until they were perfect beings to date one another, no one would be with anyone at all.
Especially if our abusers are our parents who raised us, we have some aspects of their personalities that we catch on. For example, I’m typically easygoing, but sometimes when I lose my temper with people (which takes A LOT), I find myself thinking cruel barbs like my abuser would have actually said to me in an argument. I also struggle with forgiveness for big mistakes – for myself and my relationships. It is a struggle for me to resist sometimes, because lashing out is easier than working through emotions.
I can also be standoffish or even rude towards people I am interested in – it took me a very long time to realize it’s because I’m afraid to be vulnerable, or completely bare myself (PTSD? Probably..) I haven’t had the chance to get myself to therapy about that yet, and I actually am on hold for romantic relationships right now. The thing about that is, I’m still fundamentally a good person. I am kinder with my friends because I realize this, then I work on it, I try, and I am better off for the improvements. It’s unfair because it’s not our fault we were exposed to these things, but it’s up to us to unlearn the crap people have dumped on us and learn and add to the more functional positive things.
So like the commenter above, you are your own person. Just because I also have a temper like my person does does automatically make me them. In fact, the fact that you are worried for this is HUGE – a lot of folks literally don’t give a shit how they treat people.
I think there is someone out there for everyone, and everyone deserves respect and kindness and love.
If you feel that you are not ready, I don’t know if you have access, but maybe you could think about the things that make you nervous about entering a relationship, and then speak to a counselor or therapist about it, and the things you can do to work on those feelings/relationship patterns.
If you find that some aspect of your relationship patterns are damaging to yourself or others (again, I don’t know this is true- and I don’t think it was right for that person to insinuate that you are exactly your abuser), it might be better to wait and work on some things. The important thing about that is, THIS IS OKAY. It’s okay to wait. I felt like shit then, but I know now that if I had a relationship with that person, it would have not turned out well, because at the time I was so depressed and anxious I couldn’t function.
You are not your abuser. You are not defective because someone hurt you, although it may feel this way. You are a normal human reacting the way a normal human would when they’ve been wounded so deeply. Only while these reactions helped in the face of actual attack, they’re not exactly helpful when we’re out of the situation, so we have to work on them. I hope that makes sense, and I hope you feel better.
No one is doomed to become their abuser. You are not doomed to become your abuser. You have the ability to recognize those patterns and resist them. To be better than how you were raised to be. And I can say as someone who viewed myself as inherently broken for many years, that you are unlikely to be too broken to be loved. Cause that’s total bollocks.
That said, as everyone else said. If you’re worried about this stuff, therapy can help as can trusted friends who know to call you out on your shit if you’re going down a bad road. And taking some time to process doesn’t mean that you’re too broken or that you can’t date again until you are “fixed”.
From what I’ve seen of you on these boards, you seem introspective and like you care deeply about consent and not repeating those abusive patterns and you know that others have grown up with abuse or have survived hell and have not gone on to abuse their future patterns. I think if you are conscious about your actions and have a therapist’s support, you can do anything.
But in the meantime, I offer these very strong *hugs* and say to you that you are a worthy human being and you are not doomed to become the ones who hurt you.
Thank you for the kind words, everyone. I’ve calmed down since writing that, and they’re all deeply appreciated.
I’m sorry that I threw my concerns up here again. I just have no idea who to turn to. I feel like the people I can talk to I’m exploiting.
My sister was the one who said it to me, I think that’s why it stung so much. When she said it I felt so angry, and it felt like I was correct about all my worst fears about myself.
I’m so ashamed that this is a thing I have to worry about. I feel like a fucking gorilla. Like I have to be careful not to go insane and beat somebody.
You definitely don’t need to apologize to us though. You need to find comfort where you can, and leaving a comment here is about as far from an imposition as can be.
Survived the storm, and got power and internet back within a day meaning I survived it twofold, so y’all get to continue to enjoy my gloriously comical self and occasional forays into severely misplaced anger! Hurray!
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’ve been brainstorming Magic the Gathering decks for nearly twenty-four hours now. I wish I hadn’t discovered Cockatrice… it’s kind of like nerd sniping for Magic players.
A long time ago in a forest far away I had a friend who was trans threaten to out me to my parents as trans, call the police and get me committed because I was dealing with suicidal ideation. I was 18 they were 23.
My parents are abusive, I am neurodivergent, police do not treat people like me well, neither do people in the medical field. They routinly abuse people like me, actually.
If my former friend had gone through with what they threatened I think my life would be much worse than it is now. They didn’t, I cut them off instantly.
I now have a partner and am working on escaping from my abusive parents, things I don’t think I would have been able to do if my former friend did call the police on me.
Getting someone committed might work if they have a supportive family and aren’t heavily marginalized, but it can be absolutely disastrous for more marginalized people like me.
The university ruth is at appears to not be complete shit in trying to help her, the RA seems ok, she might realize that ruth cant be send home because of her father, but in the real word it doesn’t necessarily go that way, because the real world is not a online comic strip.
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The best comebacks are the ones no one can hear and therefore refute
(inb4) i been sick
I’m glad to see you’re feeling better. ^^
Gotta keep those universal constants constant.
I wouldn’t push my luck, Sarah. Billie demonstrated super-hearing abilities just two strips ago.
Dunno, talking about someone just in front of you, toward them, isn’t particulary stealthy (as long as there’s no car traffic, anyway).
Yeah, Dana’s different! She was only addicted to ONE thing!
Ruth’s addicted to like
7
1) Bille
2) Alcohol
3) Maple Leafs
4) Bloody Femurs
5) Psychic Vampirism of Freshman terror
6) ?
7) ??
You forgot Self-Loathing.
5 is like 7. Their both odd numbers in the same range.
schadenfreude.
6) Maple syrup.
6) Spite
8) Profit
4) Femurs
1) Alcohol
2) Billie
3) Maple Leafs
4) Violence
5) Psychological torture
6) Sarcasm/snark
7) Pudding
8) protecting her brother.
9) ???
10) Profit
Your current Gravatar makes it look like Ruth is glaring at her vices with disdain.
“You’re the sources of my happiness and the reasons for my self-loathing.”
Sounds about right. Especially Billie, since she loves her and hates herself for dragging Billie down.
This scenario was *actually* about Ruth too, as opposed to Saraidah simply convincing themselves that it was. No, I don’t have any experience with codependent B.S. at all… (“people liked Dana” under her breath as her rebuttal?! Daaaaaammmmnnnn….)
Saraidah? Is that some fanon hateship?
Well if it wasn’t it is now!
Should have stayed out of everything Sarah. You have no need of friendship. Too many feels.
Friendship causes pain. It’s laughter and it’s loving you disdain.
You are a rock. You are an island.
Billie’s gonna be projecting for a while isn’t she?
“The Billingsworth Project” Not a good band name, maybe a technothriller?
Sounds a bit techno.
Not techno enough?
Steampunk techno?
Yeah, realized that seconds after hitting post.
Oh yeah, but maybe it will push Sarah to find out how Dana really is so we can know one way or the other. It sounds like an interesting story at least.
Yeah, I don’t think Sarah’s gonna get the clean slate treatment from anyone but Joyce…
maybe from dina cause she probably would only hate her if she said dinosaurs were alive today and the dragons people claimed the saw. or something like that.
Aw come on Billy, Sarah hated everyone she first met!
This is also true
I love Sarah’s expression in panel 3 (and it’s a good width for a phone background!). To bad she had to have her spirit re-dampened 2 seconds later 🙁
It is friggin’ adorable.
I feel like there should have been an extra panel between #5 and #6. The transition seems to have skipped a beat.
Going from Billie saying that Sarah hated her to Sarah saying it’s about Dana. The Jeopardy Answer should be why does Sarah hate Billie? Not why Billie hates Sarah.
Didn’t Billie reek of alcohol when she met Sarah the first time?
First significant interaction I think. See the next day too. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/neighbor/
Billie’s jab at Sarah from a couple strips back was specifically referencing the incident with Dana:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/smalltalk/
That jab did seem to come out of the blue. There are some similarities, but there are significant differences between what happened with Ruth and what happened with Dana.
Billie had others who recognized that Ruth had a problem and needed help. She had support, backup to help her figure out the right thing to do.
Sarah was the only one who knew that Dana was at risk, everyone else was in denial. She was on her own and did the only thing she could think to do.
All things being equal, I think Just Me is on to something. I feel like Sarah was hostile towards Bille WAAAAAY before Billie was a Bingo towards Sarah.
When they first met, Billie reeked of alcohol and one of the first things she asked Sarah was if she knew of any good parties and in the same strip condescended to Joyce a.k.a. McRainbowTrianglegrin so she got off to a horrible start.
And since then has only shown Sarah further evidence that she is a terrible friend by getting drunk as a skunk when Joyce invited her to a party and disappearing practically 5 seconds after getting there – didn’t care about making sure Joyce was okay or anything at her first ever party, just straight into booze and gone to not be seen again until something’d already happened and then had the gall to accuse Sarah of just wanting Joyce gone when she wanted to report it to the police.
Additionally she has implied to Sarah directly that there is something wrong with Joyce for being conservative about how she dresses and well, not being interested in all the things she likes. That Joyce should look up to her as a role model.
Then there was that party that Becky organised where Billie SUPPLIED everyone with booze which was inconsiderate as hell as it was supposed to be a party for Joyce who obviously wouldn’t want that anywhere near her.
And even now, she’s showing anger towards Carla who not only was kind enough to freakin’ help her at all, but additionally didn’t know the full story and just took the quickest option to end all the fake bullshit and get Ruth legitimate help that a bag of cookies could never give her.
Sarah hasn’t been particularly friendly, she’s not that way with most people, but she does have a whole deck of cards to support exactly why she is not fond of Billie and I would understand if she never liked Billie because from her perspective, Billie has been a very bad friend, inconsiderate, judgemental, condescending and she hasn’t seen any of the progress we have seen.
Billie on the other hand, I can’t quite remember a specific incident that would have made her hate Sarah quite so much outside of her general unfriendliness and maybe a few rude quips and she told her the Dana story, so she knows why Sarah struggles opening up to people, and she has used that against her at least twice now.
So I’m kind of with Sarah where I understand why Sarah would hate Billie but not the reverse to this degree, WHICH MIGHT MEAN WE ARE LEADING INTO BILLIE STORY TIME SOON.
Also, please note much of what I have stated is purely from memory so there may be errors in precise details.
Billie is projecting her anger on Sarah for the exact reason she states in this very strip: what happened with Dana is similar, to an extent, to what happened with Ruth.
Er, doesn’t state, so much as… refer to? It’s not quite implying. Ah, you get the point.
Yeah, I kinda…damn, I don’t like most of the characters in this webcomic. There’s just too many of them that are self-involved to the point of malice and pain for those around them.
I know Billie’s in a terrible place right now and is just lashing out, but it’s really nasty to give people (Sarah and now Carla, apparently) shit about doing what is necessary to SAVE PEOPLE’S LIVES. (Lookin’ at you too, Raidah.)
it’s one of those moments where I get why the character would act like this, but damn if it doesn’t piss me off anyway
But Billie was totally saving Ruth’s life!
Step 1: Enter suicide pact.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit.
Saving someone’s life != Following them down the dark path.
Don’t forget that pudding != “Everything’s Better!”. But pudding == “Everything Starting to get Better!”
You’re assuming Billie thinks following Ruth down the dark path isn’t an acceptable outcome.
Luke Skywalker knows it.
Step 2: Life insurance.
Life Insurance doesn’t typically cover suicide.
My impression is that it does, but only if the suicide is at least 2 years after the policy starts. So hardly feasible here.
Most don’t cover it at all. Too many people made good on it after the economy collapsed.
I’m starting to wonder whether or not this is going to lead to a reveal Sarah may have accidentally made things worse for Dana. The problem is I’m not sure what else she could have done.
She could have introduced him to Mike. Theoretically.
Well, tbf, Mike wasn’t at school when Dana was. XD
Hence theoretically.
Ahh, I see. Well that’d certainly be…something. Most likely unhelpful, but something.
I’m genuinely of the mind that she very much accidentally made things worse. The way that she hasn’t had contact with Dana, but those who are say she’s in a worse place now, the way she only said she missed her mom and had no words about her dad other than to get out of there as soon as possible.
And especially the way he just straight up showed up and yanked her out of school for smoking pot as if that is an atypical college experience or as if the school doesn’t have mental health resources for depression. Overall, it definitely struck all the chords of an abuser taking advantage of an opportunity of power over the person they were abusing (I see it regularly with students of mine who are being abused. Using drugs as an excuse for more control or as belated justification for physical violence has happened with two separate students so far).
I mean, Sarah couldn’t have known that and was genuinely trying to do the right thing, but I think she fucked up and the defensive side of her brain knows that (not that she’s gonna be in a mindset to admit that given that she’s been harassed for nearly a year over it by Dana’s other friends).
I’m not too sure whether or not this will be the case since Sarah did tell her dad Dana was an emotional wreck and he may have been waffling on whether a grieving Dana should return to school already. Plus Dana had just returned from her mom’s funeral when she only mentioned wanting her mom, which I think is natural since she still has her dad. That said, the parallels are starting to make me wonder if that is true.
I’m hoping we’ll get to meet Dana again and see what’s up. However, if Raidah was right and she holds that over Sarah’s head I will actually spit fire, because she didn’t lift a finger to help her friend out.
Sarah’s first inclination was to try to convince Dana to seek out a therapist. Her friends and her ex shot that idea down. We don’t know if she ever broached the subject to Dana, but if she did, Dana clearly did not make use of it. So if she’s not seeking help and she’s getting worse (and I do believe Sarah when she says she was spiralling far more than I’d trust Raidah in that case) there isn’t really much Sarah could do outside seek help from her dad or the school, neither of which would have ended well.
If she did accidentally make things worse, I feel even more awful for Sarah. She can’t let the situation stay the same but none of the solutions are good ones.
We need to start organizing the Dana steamroller for the bonus strip voting, then.
Would that I could. I haven’t got the money to justify a subscription when I’m saving for tuition and textbooks.
If she did make it worse, it’s even worse for her than that. Because not only are there few solutions to make things better for Dana or to rectify the situation, but Dana is going to be unlikely to accept offers from help from Sarah as she’s gonna feel betrayed by her.
It’s hard to live with a fuck-up you know made someone’s life worse.
I meant solutions at the time, but yes, there’s really no way to fix things now either.
Maybe I’m missing something but the only solutions I can think of are:
A) Keep offering support and waiting it out (not working, Dana was spiralling and getting worse)
B) Get her friends to help her (She tried, it didn’t work.)
C) Get Dana to a therapist (If she tried, she was likely unsuccessful. Regardless, this one depends on Dana agreeing – Sarah can’t force her, and this could potentially get her kicked out if she’s found to possess illegal drugs)
D) Alert the RA (Potentially busts Dana and sends her either home or to involuntary therapy which would probably not help, and her dad would probably eventually find out)
E) Report this to the school (Same issue with probably contacting the RA, probably not helpful with Dana and potentially get her kicked out of school)
F) Call the cops (Noooooooo nononono, not unless the end goal is to send Dana to jail/legal trouble/get her kicked out of school)
G) Contact her dad (which in this hypothetical scenario is a bad idea because he’s a shitstain)
Without all the information, G seems the most innocuous. I may be missing other potential solutions, but it really looks like she was caught between a rock and a hard place with regards to how to help Dana.
Health Services, possibly being put on Involuntary Hold if she was a genuine danger to herself.
Would have connected her to a therapist who would not report back home what’s going on, because Dana would be a legal adult and psychological services are confidential. This would have given Dana someone to talk to about stuff, instead of just dumping it all on Sarah as it was this aspect of that time that was most fucking with Sarah.
Don’t blame her for not seeing that option as a Freshman kid who thought it was all on them to fix Dana themselves*, but contacting home was definitely a nuclear option that was wholly unnecessary.
*Sarah massively has a savior complex which can be a complete massive shitshow to deal with.
Again, though, Sarah did recommend that and she either got turned down by Dana or Dana’s (so-called) friends steered her away from that as an option. The problem isn’t that she didn’t see it, the problem is nobody else was willing to take that up as a good idea and so it either got dropped or rejected.
The thing to remember is that she was a freshman at the time, and she probably could have told the RA instead of her dad yes, but the thing is RAs and psychologists in general are mandatory reporters anyway. so if it had gotten to the point where Dana needed inpatient treatment because she literally couldn’t function. Any treatment that required money, unless Dana was independent , would have required her dad’s knowledge/insurance.
Sarah did the best she could under the circumstances. She might not have understood everything, but she did the best she could. Sometimes you’re too sick to understand how sick you are until someone has to point it out. And she was being affected by it as well, with her grades and not sleeping well is also awful on the mind and body. Also, I don’t think we’re too sure Dana’s dad is terrible, unless I recalled incorrectly.
So in short, if Dana ended up being treated, then i don’t think Sarah made it worse, and I’m really not sure what else she could have done besides going through actual school channels. To be real, a lot of freshmen forget that the school has those kind of resources in their first plac (coupled with stigma and fear), which is why a lot of cases go untreated until they hit crisis mode.
Oh I agree that I don’t blame Sarah for trying her best. She did what she thought was best with the information she had.
But you can still put someone in a bad place with good intentions and I think what’s interesting is that Sarah’s guilt isn’t so sure she really did the best thing here.
And there’s something to be said for forgiving yourself for entering into something with the best of intentions but screwing up on what was the best option because you were young and scared and trying to do the right thing.
And I think it is this part that will be Sarah’s next growth, because it’s something do-gooder types have to deal with eventually, because eventually they’re going to try and help someone and actually make a situation worse and learning to deal with that healthily is part of growing up.
So, just from rereading the whole deal, there doesn’t seem to be anything that really implies her dad is abusive. Sarah feels she made everything worse, but that’s someone looking back at a rash decision with hindsight. But that interpretation could just come from not having had abusive parents.
Okay, I have to retract my comment partially, I was only looking at the flashback as Sarah cleared things up. There is at one point where Raidah implies she talked to Dana, but it’s still kind of… It’s Raidah talking to Sarah, Raidah could be trying to take the high ground on nothing or she doesn’t want to admit to herself that Dana is getting better at home.
There’s also the fact Dana never mentions her dad and her dad’s first reaction is to yank her out of school rather than talk to her, send her to a counsellor, etc.
No iron clad evidence, but definite red flags.
Cereberus Usually you are spot on with your comments I think.
But, I believe you are way off base on this one.
Dana was more than “a pot smoker”, she was a druggie: she used to the point that she was screwing up her classes and was very much showing signs of depression.
Sarah had no desire to ‘fix up Dana herself”. Sarah went to Rideah, Dana’s so called best friend and told her that Dana was in trouble and that maybe Rideah and her posse could do something, like talk to Dana. Rideah told Sarah to mind her own damn business, more or less.
Sarah has never, to my knowledge,”had a massive savior complex”- just the opposite. She never was written as a people person, Sarah was interested in only one thing: keeping her grades up so she did not lose her scholarship so she could become a lawyer.
Dana was a threat in 2 ways to her goal. She disrupted Sarah’s study time, and she could get them both kicked out of college if caught doping it up in the dorms.
Sarah did not make it worse. She called Dana’s parents, her father came and got her. By removing her from school, she wasn’t noted in the records as being taken out to be treated for using.
I really think Sarah used good judgement. She tried to get her friends to help. She tried to talk to Dana. She could have brought the school in on it, but that could have gotten Dana kicked out, which happens more than offering help does.
Sarah did what she could to help Dana and cover her own ass at the same time. I don’t believe she made anything that was going on ‘worse’. If Dana did o.d. that would be a lot worse.
If Dana did have an abusive parent then it was up to her to get an education to have a chance to get away from it, or to seek help from a councilor. This is not something Sarah could be held to account for.
Sarah did not deserve the shit storm she stirred up against herself. That is when she pulled in to self even further and decided to Hell with the dorm, the books were all that counted.
Until Joyce.
” If Dana did o.d. that would be a lot worse. ”
And then Raidah would be going “look at that bongo Sarah, she let our friend O.D. and she was meant to be her roommate!”
She was on pot. You can’t overdose on pot:
https://teens.drugabuse.gov/national-drug-alcohol-facts-week/drug-facts-chat-day-marijuana
Like, the whole “she’s a druggie” argument really falls flat when we note that the drug she was on was pot. She was never going to overdose. Her “addiction” would be considered medicinal in several states. And there was definitely no reason for her dad to yank her out of school and put her through a severe “detoxing” to cleanse her of “pot’s bad effects”.
And that’s why I really think Dana’s home was abusive. Because the parents I see who use moral-panics about “pot addiction” as a means of control over their kids tend to be the parents who give their kids a black eye when they come onto campus.
And an abused kid is gonna be more likely to turn to pot because a) pot is an anti-anxiety medication which can help with the fear and panic surviving abuse stir up and b) pot can numb you out to the pain of being beaten up or abused. And I mean that both physically and emotionally. I’ve known potheads who were being beaten up by family members who used pot to soothe the physical pain of the wounds while also numbing out to what the abuse meant so they didn’t slip entirely into a spiral.
There was no reason for her dad to react this way unless he was looking for an excuse to bring Dana back under his control. Especially since again, the drug was pot. Pot is exceedingly common on college campuses and most folks at this point report using pot sometime in their youth, especially during college.
Yeah, but Dana wasn’t “just using pot.” She had become so depressed she was using it CONSTANTLY, bottling up her emotions in front of her friend and doing nothing but smoking when she was alone. That’s a problem. It may not be a problem because of the drug she’s chosen, but it’s a pretty serious problem nonetheless.
Indeed it is. She needed psychological help desperately for those underlying problems.
And she was lucky that the drug she was using to numb her out has less risk of overdose or long-term damage than most other drugs she could have used, but that behavior definitely was worrisome.
Okay, time out. Yes, Dana was using drugs to self-medicate and that can make her immensely worse. However, the only drug we know of her using is weed. She is not going to o.d. on weed – at least not fatally. Weed overdoses are characterized by acute pain, hallucinating and anxiety aka ‘greening out’. Dying? No, not really. You also need to be using a hell of a lot at once. The odds of mental addiction are no higher than, say, shopping or gambling (though I would say it is possible Dana fell into that due to how much she was depending on it) and physical addiction is incredibly rare, she would be more likely to get addicted to booze or cigarettes. If the risk was od-ing, she’d have to be hitting stronger stuff for that to be a very real concern. I’m not going to argue whether weed is right or wrong, but as an addictive/o.d. concern, that isn’t very likely. Sarah was worried Dana was going to die, yes, but I think she was concerned she was going to kill herself, not that she was going to od.
Sarah likes to say she doesn’t care, but then she ends up trying to help out anyways – Joyce, Dina and yeah, Dana.
Also, she was already a misanthrope by that point. Dana did not cause that, though she probably did make it worse.
And while not being dead is a good thing, if Sarah really DID send her back to an abusive home, then yes, she made Dana’s situation worse, albeit unintentionally. We do not, in fact, know Dana is being treated for her depression by her dad. It is entirely possible she’s still depressed, and now without her friends (or even her bad coping mechanism) and with the addition of an awful dad. Better than dead, sure, debatably, but worse than she was? Yes.
Yeah, that’s where I’m coming into it, or at least my interpretation of events so far. So very much agree with all of this.
Using drugs as an excuse for more control or as belated justification for physical violence is something that happens in the adult world all the time. It’s a useful, though morally terrible, lesson to those who it concerns. “Pick your dealers wisely” and whatnot.
If what you say is true, then Sarah didn’t fuck up.
Plus, we don’t know really anything about Dana, since our only way of getting information is from Reidah, who we already saw massage the truth to make Sarah out to be a horrible person when it was Reidah who bullied Sarah.
Plus we know Reidah is a bigot towards the mentally ill, given the way she treated Dina when she thought she must have a mental problem. So we don’t even know if she accepts anything about depression at all.
Yes, Sarah questions whether she did the right thing. But I really can’t come up with a way that she didn’t. With Carla there’s an argument, since she was stupid in the way she went about it, making it all public, without checking with anyone.
Sarah talked to Dana, and she ignored her Then she told her friends, and they blew her off. She then told the people you’re supposed to tell. If that resulted in something bad for Dana, that’s not Sarah’s fault.
Reidah wants her to feel bad, because Reidah is a bully. For all we know, Dana actually is better, but Reidah’s upset because she’s not at college or no longer her drug friend. I think that, if it was an abusive situation, that’s something Reidah would have rubbed in Sarah’s face to make her feel bad.
I dunno, Raidah is a bully, yes, absolutely, 100%, but she’s not a sociopath. In her own way, she thinks she’s doing right and tries to make what she thinks are healthy choices. And at the time of that comment, she was having a genuine and real conversation with Sarah and had little reason to lie to her to make her feel bad, simply because if she wanted to harass or abuse her, she had a much better tool*.
Plus, as I said earlier, I see a lot of red flags in Dana’s story that are similar to my students who are being abused at home. So Raidah’s comment seems immensely believable to me and seems more and more accurate as the narrative is starting to draw direct parallels between Dana’s situation and Ruth’s.
*Sarah had just physically assaulted her and Raidah herself points out she thought Sarah’s apology was because she realized that Raidah could have fucked her over immensely because of that.
I intensely dislike Raidah for her condescension towards Dina, but I have to agree, her ignorance is not incurable. Underneath she seems like she could be a genuinely good person.
I actually wouldn’t mind if at some point she and Sarah were able to reconcile, somehow. Especially if she apologizes to Dina at the start of it. Or better yet she gets sassed by Dina the throughout the arc.
Sarah and Raidah, as well as Billie and Carla, were complex situations where there really wasn’t a single good answer without considerable drawbacks. Even the optimal solution in either case could have had negative repercussions.
We’re talking about inexperienced teenagers and nuanced, emotionally charged situations with high stakes and where the person taking action did not have all the relevant information. It was highly unlikely that Sarah or Carla would have learned that information in the time they had to decide, since they wouldn’t have known the questions to ask. Nor was it likely they could have convinced the people who did know to take action.
As such I think it’s unreasonable to treat either situation like there it was black-and-white on any level. Even if neither Sarah nor Carla made an optimal decision about what to do, both of them had to do something, and made the best choice they were able, give their knowledge, experience, and emotional state.
Neither of them (or Raidah or Billie) was 100% right or 100% wrong. All parties involved should receive hugs.
This! Maybe minus the reconciliation considering the year long bullying and harassment. I have a low tolerance for post-bullying reconciliation, but I suppose they could potentially be done well.
As do I, but Raidah has already deescalated since Sarah punched her, so now they simply avoid each other in a more civil manner. Considering how out of line — albeit satisfying — the punch was, it seems to suggest Raidah recognizes on some level that she’s been an asshole.
Plus Dina sass is top quality.
Char and Chan can probably still die in a fire, though.
Damnit, that last sentence immediately feels too harsh. Char and Chan can fuck off forever, but they may live if they insist upon it.
I can live with civilly pretending each other doesn’t exist, yeah.
as much as you may hate it sometimes what seems bad now is for the best.
like when someone on wow i sent all my gold to since “i wouldn’t need it” and a few other words was decoded and well got me in inpatient when i was really……. dark.
a guild mate of mine actually posted a picture of a slip knot on the guid forums, along with a goodbye note. we sent the police to his house and fortunately it wasn’t too late. this happened about eight years ago and we’re still best friends. he’s finishing his computer science degree now, and has a lot of new friends at uni.
the police ended up called as a result of mine too. Later she made a wow comic idea i had into one of the ones she put on her comic site thing even which felt kinda nice
I was gonna say something even remotely pertinent to the comic, but god dammit, how is Sarah 3rd to last on the poll?! You people are crazytown.
I always try to vote for her.
I wish the previous winners weren’t included the following poll to spice things up.
I forget, has Sarah actually shown any particular animosity towards Billie beyond her usual level of misanthropy, or is Billie just saying that to help justify to herself using Sarah as the target for venting her frustration?
Sarah’s been a raging jerkface to her when she felt like it, which was most of the time.
She dismissed her as a bad person and a bad influence the moment they met on the grounds she ‘smelled like a frat house’.
I’d say there’s a good level of animosity.
well from how billie acted at the frat party sarah wasn’t exactly wrong.
Well… short answer is yes, long answer is a multi-link post I’m gonna make that will probably be approved tomorrow morning.
I look forward to it.
First face to face introduction, Billie opens politely offering a handshake and saying hi. Sarah responds by making a noise of genuine disgust and walking away:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/neighbor/
This interaction which is sarcasm, but also seems to have a really dark joke about hoping Billie gets shot for liking to drink and party:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/flares/
Straight-up slut-shaming where she says she doesn’t care if Billie gets wasted and pregnant (there’s a whole consent minefield in that construction that I don’t even want to begin tackling, especially given Billie’s understanding of drunkenness and consent at the time) and then openly says she is intending to burn bridges by her interactions with her:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/bridges/
Though I will note that Sarah did treat her very well in the immediate aftermath of Joyce being drugged and acknowledged her unfortunate knowledge base and expertise with shitty situations like this:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/allergies/
But that was short-lived beyond that evening. Next interaction of theirs, she was saying “too bad” to Billie and Ruth not getting into a fight (up until now every “fight” Ruth and Billie got into ended up with Billie getting her ass beat in):
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/04-time-keeps-on-slippin/bummer/
We also know that Sarah regards her in a deeply slut-shaming model and views her as a person who is only good for leading people into vice:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/reservations/
Openly demeaned Billie’s company and told her to her face that she was only doing something she hated to keep Billie out of Joyce’s company:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/bat-2/
Here is not an example of badness, but rather Sarah doing a good job keeping her negative feelings to herself instead of demeaning Billie to her face. Good job Sarah!:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/mission/
There was also this interaction, but Billie pressed the Dana button and she shouldna done that so I’m also not counting it to the Sarah antagonizing Billie list:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/swak/
So… yeah, Billie’s got a point here even if her going for the Dana button was still way outta line.
Cerberus, I think you are heavily weighted against Sarah in everyone of your examples.
-Billie was hungover, and Sarah doesn’t like drunks. For that matter, neither do I.
Sarah is not ‘slut shaming’ Billie. She is stating that she does not care how Billie acts at the party but that she doesn’t want that to happen to Joyce. Keep in mind, Joyce has no clue what can happen to her (and ends up finding out the hard way later on) and Sarah doesn’t think kegger party is a good place to learn.
I think you lost sight of the fact that Sarah has every right to dislike who she pleases. She is rude to Billie, yes, but Billie seems to take it as joking around and answers in kind when she brags about her sexy shirt for the party.
-In the remark that Sarah makes to Billie asking if this last argument between her and Ruth drew blood? and then commenting ‘Too bad’, was rude. And the first time I noted an actual nasty comment. As far as drawing blood, Ruth never hit Billie after she tackled her the first time. Billie never showed signs of physical abuse. They treated each other bad enough with their drinking and enabling each other.
-You next state that “everyone knows that Sarah regards Billie in a slut shaming mode”…you’re wrong. I don’t know that. I don’t believe it either. Sarah does not care enough what Billie does to regard her in any way except in her influence on Joyce. And Sarah picturing Joyce in cheer gear if she goes shopping with Billie, is really pushing the slut shaming expression to the limit, imo.
-The next example with the baseball bat? Sarah is not threatening anyone, she is reminding Joyce that she really will be there for her if she needs her to be there, and the bat is proof of that -she really was there for Joyce the night of the kegger when Joyce was almost raped.
Imo, you are looking for reasons to bang on Sarah. I think Sarah has no more that openly let Billie know that she does not like her, and why -her drinking and partying. She thinks, and says, that Billie is a HS party girl.
Sarah is all for studying and being responsible, she thinks Billie is neither.
The only time Sarah was out rude was when she hurt Billie’s feelings with the ‘no blood’ remark.
Well, I mean, if it needs to be said explicitly, I actually really like Sarah. I have a soft-spot for soft-hearted curmudgeons, the point was more about this:
“Has Sarah given the impression to Billie that she doesn’t like her? And does Billie have a point in viewing Sarah as having a problem with her?”
And well, yeah, very much so. As you note, Sarah has been rude to her face and does not at all get along with Billie’s personality type and has made no secret of hiding it.
So yeah, she’s totally allowed to dislike anyone for any reason and that’s valid, but Billie is also allowed to notice that dislike and bring it up.
P.S. Minor note, in the baseball bat strip I cited, I wasn’t thinking of the baseball bat part but rather the first panel where she’s like, I don’t want to go clothes shopping but I’ll go along if it keeps you from hanging alone with Billie which again communicates how little she regards Billie and how little she trusts Billie and how toxic she views her company.
I think your third paragraph is a good point, but I also would like to point out that Billie is rude to a lot of people she knows on a regular basis, and Sarah being who she is, has probably noticed it – at this point that neither Sarah nor Billie can realize how their actions appear to others. Its actually interesting and surprising to me that Billie doesn’t seem to realize being a jerk to people can, well, make people think you’re a jerk – even people who might not know you but can see your actions.
Indeed and that has consequences too.
Billie made similar accusations a while a back, suggesting Sarah wanted to get Joyce sent home:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/swak/
I think that what brought that on was Sarah costing Billie the chance to make friends with Raidah and her sophomore friends, which would have allowed Billie to re-establish herself as part of a clique of popular girls.
And that Sarah and Billie’s personalities have never seemed to mesh well.
Yeah here we go…and you know what to be honest no one checked in on Dana ever since she was sent home, for people who seemed to care about her so damn much it’s odd you didn’t bother to pick up a damn phone and check up on her afterwords.
I thought Raidah has claimed that she did, and that Dana isn’t doing well.
It is true she has apparently contacted Dana at least once, but we don’t know when that was.
“she has apparently contacted Dana at least once, but we don’t know when that was.”
Didn’t seem to be something done recently, nor implied she’s doing this on a regular basis.
“Not according to Dana last time I checked.” Is what Raidah says.
The implication is she contacted Dana, but she could just be going off on how “Dana was getting better.” And Sarah sending her home kept her from the people helping her get better.
And frankly I don’t really trust Raidah’s opinion on it. She completely missed the signs that Dana wasn’t doing well in the first place.
Billie doesn’t actually know Dana. She only knows the story of what happened.
Raidah seems to be in touch with her, but I doubt she would even accept calls from Sarah.
I said as much, but in regards to Carla. While nobody likes a snitch nobody liked Ruth except Billie and since the floor might get a more likable RA then Carla will merely be disliked for being a jerk.
Carla fucked up in a lot of ways in how she decided to deal with things (chief among them being forcibly outing Ruth and Billie), but I’m not sure I’d call her a snitch.
I’m confused, why would Sarah have hated Billie from the get go because of Dana, or judging by how Sarah worded it, because of what Sarah did for/to Dana when Sarah and Bille met, which was weeks before now, right??
I think it’s Sarah thinking Billie hates her because of Dana, ignoring Billie’s response that Sarah’d hated her first.
Gotcha.
I might check the tags later to confirm, but I do get the sense that Sarah was unnecessarily antagonistic to Billie for a long time. Something that stuck out at me was Sarah’s line “Billie get prepared for a compliment” when Billie helped recognize the signs of a roofie at that party. Like damn Sarah, why you hate Billie so much?
(tags may confirm it was Sarah’s general misanthrophy rather than something Billie did particularly)
Comic Reactions:
Panels 1-3: Awwwww, they’re smiling at each other here. It really meant a lot to both of them to do this. For Sarah to be invited and for Joyce to have her roommate big sis join her support network in a more formal way.
They’re building something better together and that’s awesome to see.
But yeah, the real meat is in the second half, cause, ooh boy, I’m feeling like I’m gonna be speculation city over what this says about where Sarah’s head is at.
Panel 5: Billie’s got a hell of a point here. Sarah has antagonized Billie since her first formal introduction to her. Openly and to her face, demeaning the value of her company, slut-shaming her for being a party girl and wishing ill on her, and openly viewing her company as something corrupting and toxic. Which gets really dark when you realize how much she’s internalized the idea that she’s poison that destroys everything she touches.
Billie is right to be like, fuck you too, even though I think she was way out of line with that nasty comment at Sarah about Dana on the walk over. And she’s right to call that out, especially when Sarah is fronting like this is some one-sided dislike that Billie started.
Panel 6: And her response is fascinating, because she instantly ignores the argument with actual substance to jump to an argument where she is no longer feeling in a vulnerable position.
And well… that’s not the first time she’s done something like that. The most direct example would probably be where she was openly called out for this behavior by Dina:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/04-walking-with-dina/contractions/
But…
Between Billies snap at Joyce and this outlash at Sarah it feels to me like she is done pulling punches. She tried to help and do something good and that lead to absolutely nothing so she can just as well be the worthless bully everyone thinks she is (according to her inner voice).
Like Walky said, high school Billie is back. Hoooray…
Interesting observation about Sarah’s immediate deflection. But if that is what she was going for (and I think you and Dina are right on the mark about that one), she REALLY effed up in finding safe ground here.
Billie and Sarah have both faced the same impossible, horrible situation. They both have had to act with limited information and agency, and neither is sure they made the right choice. They made the opposite choice, and where Sarah saw her choice solve the situation (yay…) Billie saw her choice taken from her (double way…).
Even without their history, that would just plain hurt too much for them to be even close to friendly
I really cannot see where Sarah is slut-shaming Billie. She reacts to Billie reeking of alcohol from the first and makes it quite clear she’d prefer all drinking partygoers to dead. Or at least very,very far away from her.
This is not slut-shaming. This is seeing something that threatens your well-being and being threatening in return. What she is saying again and again is “I don’t care if you ruin your own life but I will hurt you if you start to ruin mine.”
Billie might have gotten it wrong though, I strongly doubt she knows Sarah smells the alcohol on her, so to her this might be anything, even racist behavior.
Indeed, she dislikes the alcohol part, but she brings up sexual aspects of that party girl life in her dislike. Most prominently saying she wouldn’t care if Billie wound up pregnant from a night out partying which… pregnancy as punishment… kinda awful. And again when she imagines Joyce after Billie’s company and imagines a stereotypical “sexy halloween costume” idea of cheerleader with a sexually suggestive phrase on the top.
Like, growing up in this culture, it’s hard not to grow up with negative views towards sexually active women, but Sarah has definitely let that aspect color how she interprets Billie’s party girl persona.
Billie’s a bit more than “sexually active”. Or at least presented that image – as far as we know she’s only been with Ruth so far at school.
But “I have this top that practically begs for that. You know, for when I’m not sober enough to beg for it myself.”?
Even if that’s her exaggerating to make fun of Sarah’s attitude, it’s still basically a joke about wanting to be raped.
I’ve got no problems with sexually active women, but I’ve got problems with that. I mean, do your thing, but I’m not likely to hang out with you.
Billie is NOT right. Because of the thing she said with Dana. She’s now excusing that behavior by saying that Sarah has been mean to her.
Sarah didn’t front anything. She asked about why Billie was being mean to her. Billie, rather than address that, turned it around on her, attacking her, as if any of how she’s acted justified what Billie had just done.
So Sarah actually showed some insight and talked about something else. And Billie’s response shows that was the real issue. She’s lashing out over what happened to Ruth. She sees Sarah as the same type of person.
Billie was the one trying to avoid talking about the real problem. She used a classic blame shifting tactic. Sarah figured out the real problem.
Oh I agree on that. Billie is also avoiding thinking about things and very much blames herself for like 12 different things.
But I don’t blame her for responding incredulously to Sarah’s “what’s your problem” because yeah to Billie, it is a bizarre question. She tried to be nice once upon a time, Sarah was repeatedly cruel to her and so now they stay out of each other’s way. And yeah, Billie was way out of line with her Dana comment, but her face in Panel 5 is more “seriously?” than “how can I dodge responsibility for my actions?”.
Who the hell is Dana?
[She’s not in the “Hottest” contest, so I guess she must be a very minor character.]
Sarah’s roommate last year, had a bad time after her mom died. Sarah either intervened to save her life, or threw her away to the wolves because she was in the way. Depends who you ask.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/tag/dana/
Panel 6 continued: But the most glaring example would be her interaction with Raidah wherein Raidah openly states that Dana is not actually in a better place due to Sarah’s actions and this information is from a source Sarah has actively avoided contacting to check up on:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/06-strange-beerfellows/absolve/
And part of the reason for this evasion makes sense given that Raidah and her crew have been harassing Sarah for nearly a year over supposed wrongdoing which is gonna make anyone defensive and likely to equate being called out on something vulnerable as a potential attack.
But the other half shows Sarah’s personal flaw and that is her tendency to go on the attack and push back on people when she feels vulnerable. Some of it is sniping, some of it is sowing seeds of doubt in people’s relationships, some of it is deflecting actual criticisms of her direct behavior by shaping it into something she can feel aggrieved by.
And that’s the biggest glaring piece of this panel. What Billie said in Panel 5 had nothing to do with Dana. Didn’t even once mention Dana. Didn’t bring it up in any way. But Sarah immediately jumped to Dana and saying it was all about Dana. And that’s fascinating because I dated someone for awhile who was similarly evasive about things she actually did wrong and would try and immediately jump to a topic she felt she had an advantage on and try and tie the conversation to that.
So a discussion about a behavior that wasn’t right would morph around to one that didn’t mean having to admit fault or make any adjustments to behavior in any meaningful way and that usually meant gaslighting and refusing to discuss the actual behavior that hurt me.
And well, Sarah’s dodge here reminds me a lot about it especially since it’s a good dodge. Billie does also have feelings about the way Sarah handled Dana especially with regards to her negative feelings towards Carla outing her and Ruth.
As we see in Billie’s response.
And the thing is, that whole “home” thing was probably bullshit both times. Ruth wouldn’t have been safe at home. Dana is unlikely to be safe at home. Both would have (and Ruth is likely to) benefit from Psychological Health Services from the college instead of that.
Panel 7: Though, hey, points to Sarah for not going for that particular low blow in anything but a soft whisper because that would have likely set off Billie and justifiably so.
Though her initial loud part sounds like denial. Like, she doesn’t want to know if Dana’s home life was abusive and unhealthy, because she doesn’t want to actually review her actions with any form of doubt. And she doesn’t want to draw the connection between Ruth and Dana because it might make her realize there was another option besides calling home to get Dana’s depression treated.
That she didn’t need to drain herself being a personal unpaid therapist until she was at the end of the rope, but could have contacted Health Services for some help.
And I’m suspecting that possible different route is something Sarah is really gonna have to grapple with this arc as she learns how to healthily process guilt and second-guessing past actions without turning self-abusive with it.
I agree with most of this except for two things:
1) Sarah DID recommend Health Services for Dana. She got into an argument with Dana’s friends over whether or not it was a good idea to try to get her into therapy. Either they convinced her not to, or she tried to talk to Dana about it and she didn’t go for it. But her first instinct was ‘Get Dana a therapist’. It was after that idea passed and Dana spiralled even more that she called Dana’s dad.
B) She didn’t say it was all about Dana, she asked if that’s what that was about because, while Billie is absolutely right to call her on how she treats Billie, Billie is also acting crankier with Sarah than usual, and she DID snipe about Dana earlier, making it not an unreasonable conclusion to draw. That said, Sarah totally does do avoid subjects like that and I’m sorry it brought up bad memories. That should not have happened to you and I hope you’re in a better place now.
Agree with this. If Dana didn’t want to go to health services, she wouldn’t have unless she was suicidal or otherwise in danger of hurting herself. She felt fine trying to self medicate and spiraling, her friends felt she was fine, Sarah was stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I think the issue of home is more of a structural problem than a personal one-this is what I mean:
Many students with severe issues like Dana, although they contact health services, end up being sent home/on indefinite leave anyway. As I mentioned in a previous thread, the way many colleges and universities handle mental health is great, but also a shitshow in a lot of ways. So if a student is completely nonfunctional, there’s a good chance they’ll end up at home anyway. This is because, to my knowledge, there’s very little chance of the student taking a break from classes and still being on campus anyway.
With a few exceptions, at most universities/colleges, either you’re enrolled as a full time student, or you go home, barring any special accomodations. These don’t usually include mental health disorders, and they usually don’t mean that you can shave off your class load to below part time or 0 so you can recuperate. If you want to live on campus and benefit from its resources, you must also be enrolled full time, which makes it even harder for students coping with physical and mental disorders.
I do think it will be interesting for Sarah, who clings to her sense of morality as a means of self worth, grappling with the fact that sometimes we make the “right” choice and it doesn’t always work out. And the fact that just by existing, you have an effect on people (her relationship to Joyce) let alone making decisions that directly affect them (Dana) .
That’s all a very fair point.
One thing. “she wouldn’t have unless she was suicidal or otherwise in danger of hurting herself.” No guarantee that would’ve happened either. Yes, that’s what you’re supposed to do. But by the time you get to that place, odds are “get help” isn’t so much on your mind. You’re not in control anymore.
I think Mav meant Dana wouldn’t be involuntarily held unless she was suicidal or otherwise in danger of hurting herself, not that Dana wouldn’t seek help.
While Billie didn’t say anything about Dana here, she did attack Sarah with that a couple strips (and a few minutes) back. Not surprising it’s on Sarah’s mind.
I think you’re on the right track about Sarah’s deflection and attack. It seems a pretty common tactic for her.
I’m not sold on the Dana’s abusive family theory. It’s possible, but the clues are pretty sketchy at this point.
And I really don’t see how getting Dana into campus therapy would have been possible, without her consent. Unlike Ruth, Dana wasn’t lying on her bed unresponsive. She was still putting up a front. As far as we know at least, since we haven’t seen as much. Case like that, the roommate going to Health Services isn’t going to get very far. They might come talk to Dana, but she’d likely convince them she’s not in immediate danger and they couldn’t do anything. She could have turned her in for the drugs, but that’s likely worse that contacting the father.
And either would have burned any trust as thoroughly as what she actually did.
To add to those above, I’m not sure how much stock I put in Raidah checking up, or on Dana’s own feelings on whether she’s better off or not. We don’t know when ‘last I checked’ was – it may well have been shortly after Dana’s father came for her. ‘Last I checked’ could well be ‘that BONGO Sarah better get what’s coming to her, I was going to be fine, you know I wasn’t having problems and you know me a lot better than she did’ just to avoid admitting that yes, she was having severe problems. Heck, ‘last I checked’ could be before Dana even left, and Raidah could mean ‘well, I don’t see that Dana was EVER having problems to the extent you claim’. We don’t know. (Note: I don’t think Raidah is flat out lying and that ‘last I checked’ is an outright fabrication, I think that would be out of character for her. I do think that it would be in character for her to take one data point, her perception in the moment, and reason from there to a conclusion, as she did with Dina.)
And I personally think that ‘we don’t know’ is at least part of the point. Short of Dana actually showing up and telling us, we don’t actually know where her head is at now or what’s going on with her. We have Raidah’s information, but we have no way of knowing how current/dated that is or even how truthful that is. We have no solid information about Dana’s home situation apart from ‘she loved her mom and her mom died’. So we, and Sarah, may never know whether or not what Sarah did actually worked out for the best for Dana. All we know is what she and others believe to be true.
This is very true.
“Last I checked” can also be used figuratively, meaning “This is an obvious point.” “Not according to Dana, last I checked” could mean, “I’ve been in touch with her and she’s miserable.” or “I do not see how this could possibly be better.'”
The ‘Not According to Dana” part makes me a little more likely to think she’s had some sort of contact, but I also do see it as very possible that Raidah is operating off of a limited data sample and may be in error.
I do hope this is something we get back to, though.
And for Sarah’s sake, I hope that the previous suggestions of an abusive father, etc. are not true. I honestly want it acknowledged that she did the best she could given the data she had, after exercising less drastic options to no avail. If Raidah’s words are indicating that her life post-removal is miserable for reasons outside of the embarrassment of being removed from college and having to wrestle with the issues she was self-medicating, then regardless of Sarah’s intentions (which I continue to believe in), it’s a post facto condemnation of her decision.
Also, I don’t feel like a third or fourth abusive father in this story.
Ah, well. Not my story to tell.
Sarah, read between the lines here.
This is a sure sign you should
befriendassociate with Carla.That way you’ll have a like-minded individual to back you up in these arguments and vice versa.
I mean you have one data-point in common. What’s the worst that could happen?
Sarah: Lawful Neutral
Carla: Chaotic Neutral
(Yes yes we could argue about Alignment all day but I made a joke! A joke.)
I’m not sure they’d get along at all, but I support any developments which result in Carla showing up more
NOT CARLA ENOUGH!
Ooh, that’d be interesting.
They’d either get along great with their similarly dour ways of looking at the world or they’d bitterly fight due to their fundamental disconnect on authority (Carla viewing it as hostile to worthless and Sarah viewing it as a potential force for good).
I see a smiiii-iiiiile in panel 3!!!
…I see a lot of non-smiles after that, but I’m glad for what I got.
I know! Eeeeeeee!
Damn, Sarah… In the third panel, you sure got those hungry eyes!
Maybe there is hope for these two meeting on neutral grounds yet.
Sarah may be able to see Billie as more than the HS mentality cheerleader drunk. Sarah never hated her, she just can’t be bothered with people who have a chance for an education, and throw it away. And screw up their minds with dope/booze.
Billie may be able to see Sarah as more than the rumors about her that have circulated since Dana. And maybe understand why Sarah has treated her with distain. Sarah doesn’t hate her, it is not personal, it’s all on her behavior.
So far Billie has had no reason to really care one way or other what Sarah thinks. Nor, has Sarah. they only inter-acted through Joyce. And Joyce has been expanding her circle of experience.
They don’t travel in the same circles. That may be changing.
One day, I’m hoping that Sarah can admit to herself that it is possible and right for someone to like her.
This song was literally the first thing that popped into my head when I saw what Joyce said in panel 2.
Y’know, we haven’t seen Jason in a while.
And Carla was also right. You forced a serious problem that you couldn’t deal with yourself onto her plate and she dealt with it the best she could you don’t get to bongo and moan about it.
No, she wasn’t, and no she didn’t. Carla was rash, and took on more responsibility than she was asked. She was asked to watch Ruth. That was it. She thought she could force them back together and fix the problem, and that failed.
She was well-meaning, but she fucked up. She didn’t check with either person before making her move.
And the beauty of Sarah’s arc especially and probably Carla and Billie’s arcs in part is that you can do “the right action”, something meant to help that seems to make perfect sense given the information you have, which nonetheless puts someone in a bad spot you didn’t intend or consider.
And that’s okay. Sometimes that happens and I think Sarah’s path is going to be recognizing that and accepting that and learning from it and becoming a better lawyer because of it.
Sometimes a good action has unintended consequences and it’s good to recognize that and forgive yourself, as hard as that might be. And to take what you need not to fuck up in that way again. And even to recognize that some problems have no solutions without consequences (I’d argue Ruth was this as even the state she’s in which is probably the best she could be in still will likely come with consequences with her job and thus her ability to stave off her abusive grandpa.
+1 Internet
(Tried to swipe some of Emperor Norton II’s honors for you, but the Imperial Guard are unreasonably competent and incorruptible.)
I miss my points…
If it helps, Cerberus is already my Internet Ambassador for Goodwill and Understanding Each Other. She even has a +6 Staff of Seeing Others as Human Beings (Save at -10 or realize that maybe you’d actually consider doing better as a person) that comes with the job. The +6 is for the occasions when people just don’t try to do better after all.
It’s nerf-tipped, though, so it mostly hurts your ego to be boinked with it.
She’s an irritating fucking rich kid with pretensions of relevance. It’s what they fucking do.
Nope and nope. Implicit in a request to watch someone is the instruction to prevent anything bad from happening to them. It is beyond unreasonable to expect someone to see that a person is suicidal and not do something about it.
Billie’s plan to “keep an eye on her” was NOT WORKING. What went down should have happened in a less public way, but that isn’t what Billie’s complaining about here. She isn’t saying that Sarah got Dana help in the wrong way, she’s saying Sarah shouldn’t have gotten her help at all.
And that’s flat out wrong.
She didn’t have all the facts, but I disagree that she fucked up. Ruth was spiralling and Billie was enabling, and neither was in a position to do what would actually lead to Ruth continuing to be alive.
Ruth is getting help now. She might lose her job, Or she might not. It honestly probably depends on how she responds to treatment. Universities usually take mental illness pretty seriously.
She checked with them. Ruth was damn near unresponsive and only said dying “sounds nice”. She went to Billie and Billie just said that seemed normal.
What the hell are you supposed to do at that point? “Oh. Fine. Have fun dying.”
She was even trying just to push Billie to handle it, rather than involve authorities. Would have been better to avoid directly outing them, I suppose. Though Billie made no real secret of her interest in girls, so it’s more outing the relationship than outing an orientation.
I think this is the first time I’ve ever seen Sarah crack anything close to a smile. O.o
What did Sarah due to Ruth?
Sarah didn’t do anything to Ruth. But she blew the whistle on the extent of Dina’s troubles, leading to Dina leaving. The parallel with the revelations of Ruth’s troubles (and possibly, Ruth leaving) are apparent to both Billie and Sarah — although Sarah wants to disassociate herself from them.
Dana, not Dina. Different D*na. Though they share most of their DNA.
<rimshot>
And they are both from the Myst world of D’na.
That’s D’ni.
Dana’s almost exactly like Ruth – they’re both people who had clearly dangerous problems that their social circle was not solving (and arguably making worse), and someone called for help which, based on all the knowledge they had, was the best way to get them help.
The main difference is in Ruth’s case, Billie could have told Carla more infromation and didn’t until after Carla took action.
Huh. As shitty & combative as Billie is being towards Sarah, at least she’s willing to TALK to her. Which kinda makes sense – Sarah is the only one of their group not responding to her pain by being overly nice, which can feel like being mocked.
…..Or she could just be an easy target for Billie to verbally pile onto.
Does “Water Fountain” sound like an excuse to anyone else?
I’m a little worried about Billie showing no signs of alcohol withdrawal. We’ve seen them with Ruth before, but never with Billie. Largely because Billie’s never actually stopped drinking before.
I wonder if she really has this time either.
Yeah, I’m gonna guess she’s still imbibing and I think you’re right that she slipped into the bathroom for a little nip from a flask or a bottle as she may not have gotten the chance to drink last night.
aww, man. I didn’t even consider that.
I was just relieved when I realized Billie was actually going into the lecture hall instead of ducking out of it.
I’m a little confused, is everyone mad at Sarah and Carla for preventing suicides? I might be misunderstanding but that’s what I’m seeing happen here.
Not everyone. Nothing is true for everyone here.
Not for preventing suicides, but for not being perfect people who are able to prevent suicides in the optimum possible way. As defined by people who:
A) Are not limited to one first person viewpoint.
B) Who are not constrained by confidentiality obligations in discussing things with others.
C) Have plenty of time to think everything through carefully.
D) Have the benefit of being able to define parts of the world that have not been covered in detail in the comic.
E) Can foresee the future.
I.E. The usual sort of people you get commenting online anywhere, about anything.
Seriously though. Her first word upon meeting her, for the first time.
Was “bleh”.
*”bleah” got to get that right.
It’s implied, a couple strips later (and maybe in the expression then), that the “bleah” is a reaction to Billie smelling “like a frathouse party”.
Alcohol, I assume.
So I know this isn’t an appropriate place to ask this but I kind of need to hear from someone and I don’t know how to feel.
So I had a chat tonight with someone I dearly trust and they told me that if I attempted to enter a relationship with someone then, by doing so, I would be no better than my abuser, and that I would be doomed to repeat the patterns they fell into and that I would enact them onto my partner because I haven’t dealt with my own issues yet.
I don’t know I’m not feeling okay right now and I always felt this way but I never wanted to think it as true but I feel like it has to be true about me now that it’s been confirmed by a third party.
Like I always thought “to broken to be with someone” was bullshit but now I don’t know. What if I do end up repeating the same things I went through onto someone else.
You are an individual and you have free will. Don’t abandon a part of life out of fear.
I don’t have first-hand experience with depression or abuse — and not much more with dating, to be honest — but I can’t agree with that friend of yours.
I don’t know you, apart from having read a number of your comments, and I don’t know your situation, but I feel very certain that no matter what you’re going through, you absolutely deserve to seek — and hopefully find — love, the same as everyone.
I think there are definitely times where it is wiser when dealing emotional turmoil and past trauma to learn to manage those things in a healthy manner, to prioritize on your own immediate emotional health first before your love life, but that’s a practical concern, not a moral one. If you feel you can handle rejection, and the time and energy required if things go well, then you should go for it. It doesn’t make you a bad or irresponsible person to do so. I’m far more worried about that your fear of repeating the pattern will make you unhappy than I am that you’ll actually repeat it.
I also think these would be good concerns to bring up with the counselor you mentioned you were going to see, or perhaps a survivors’ support group, if there is one nearby.
First, I’m sorry you’re not feeling too well right now emotionally.
Having experienced abuse myself as well, I think there is a nuance to these things in the sense that if everyone waited until they were perfect beings to date one another, no one would be with anyone at all.
Especially if our abusers are our parents who raised us, we have some aspects of their personalities that we catch on. For example, I’m typically easygoing, but sometimes when I lose my temper with people (which takes A LOT), I find myself thinking cruel barbs like my abuser would have actually said to me in an argument. I also struggle with forgiveness for big mistakes – for myself and my relationships. It is a struggle for me to resist sometimes, because lashing out is easier than working through emotions.
I can also be standoffish or even rude towards people I am interested in – it took me a very long time to realize it’s because I’m afraid to be vulnerable, or completely bare myself (PTSD? Probably..) I haven’t had the chance to get myself to therapy about that yet, and I actually am on hold for romantic relationships right now. The thing about that is, I’m still fundamentally a good person. I am kinder with my friends because I realize this, then I work on it, I try, and I am better off for the improvements. It’s unfair because it’s not our fault we were exposed to these things, but it’s up to us to unlearn the crap people have dumped on us and learn and add to the more functional positive things.
So like the commenter above, you are your own person. Just because I also have a temper like my person does does automatically make me them. In fact, the fact that you are worried for this is HUGE – a lot of folks literally don’t give a shit how they treat people.
I think there is someone out there for everyone, and everyone deserves respect and kindness and love.
If you feel that you are not ready, I don’t know if you have access, but maybe you could think about the things that make you nervous about entering a relationship, and then speak to a counselor or therapist about it, and the things you can do to work on those feelings/relationship patterns.
If you find that some aspect of your relationship patterns are damaging to yourself or others (again, I don’t know this is true- and I don’t think it was right for that person to insinuate that you are exactly your abuser), it might be better to wait and work on some things. The important thing about that is, THIS IS OKAY. It’s okay to wait. I felt like shit then, but I know now that if I had a relationship with that person, it would have not turned out well, because at the time I was so depressed and anxious I couldn’t function.
You are not your abuser. You are not defective because someone hurt you, although it may feel this way. You are a normal human reacting the way a normal human would when they’ve been wounded so deeply. Only while these reactions helped in the face of actual attack, they’re not exactly helpful when we’re out of the situation, so we have to work on them. I hope that makes sense, and I hope you feel better.
What most everyone else said.
No one is doomed to become their abuser. You are not doomed to become your abuser. You have the ability to recognize those patterns and resist them. To be better than how you were raised to be. And I can say as someone who viewed myself as inherently broken for many years, that you are unlikely to be too broken to be loved. Cause that’s total bollocks.
That said, as everyone else said. If you’re worried about this stuff, therapy can help as can trusted friends who know to call you out on your shit if you’re going down a bad road. And taking some time to process doesn’t mean that you’re too broken or that you can’t date again until you are “fixed”.
From what I’ve seen of you on these boards, you seem introspective and like you care deeply about consent and not repeating those abusive patterns and you know that others have grown up with abuse or have survived hell and have not gone on to abuse their future patterns. I think if you are conscious about your actions and have a therapist’s support, you can do anything.
But in the meantime, I offer these very strong *hugs* and say to you that you are a worthy human being and you are not doomed to become the ones who hurt you.
Thank you for the kind words, everyone. I’ve calmed down since writing that, and they’re all deeply appreciated.
I’m sorry that I threw my concerns up here again. I just have no idea who to turn to. I feel like the people I can talk to I’m exploiting.
My sister was the one who said it to me, I think that’s why it stung so much. When she said it I felt so angry, and it felt like I was correct about all my worst fears about myself.
I’m so ashamed that this is a thing I have to worry about. I feel like a fucking gorilla. Like I have to be careful not to go insane and beat somebody.
I’m glad you’re feeling a better.
You definitely don’t need to apologize to us though. You need to find comfort where you can, and leaving a comment here is about as far from an imposition as can be.
Survived the storm, and got power and internet back within a day meaning I survived it twofold, so y’all get to continue to enjoy my gloriously comical self and occasional forays into severely misplaced anger! Hurray!
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’ve been brainstorming Magic the Gathering decks for nearly twenty-four hours now. I wish I hadn’t discovered Cockatrice… it’s kind of like nerd sniping for Magic players.
Hooray! Yay for survival!
Cara made the right decision, though.
Er… Carla
Quick story.
A long time ago in a forest far away I had a friend who was trans threaten to out me to my parents as trans, call the police and get me committed because I was dealing with suicidal ideation. I was 18 they were 23.
My parents are abusive, I am neurodivergent, police do not treat people like me well, neither do people in the medical field. They routinly abuse people like me, actually.
If my former friend had gone through with what they threatened I think my life would be much worse than it is now. They didn’t, I cut them off instantly.
I now have a partner and am working on escaping from my abusive parents, things I don’t think I would have been able to do if my former friend did call the police on me.
Getting someone committed might work if they have a supportive family and aren’t heavily marginalized, but it can be absolutely disastrous for more marginalized people like me.
The university ruth is at appears to not be complete shit in trying to help her, the RA seems ok, she might realize that ruth cant be send home because of her father, but in the real word it doesn’t necessarily go that way, because the real world is not a online comic strip.
I’m on billies side in this.