I just said it because it sort of rhymed! (unless you say CAR-mel instead of CARE-a-mull, in which case “caramel is horrible!” …oops, not really defending myself well here)
GOSH DARNIT GIGAFREAK! Because of that link I jsut reread Les and Robin’s wedding and now I’m crying because of feels. Dang it! Double Dang it! I didn’t need that
considering that he just revealed that even he was shocked about the election results, I think he’s having sooo much fun realizing he now has responsibilities too
Well, she’s a college professor, so she’s gotta at least have a Master’s, yeah? So that’d make her probably 23, 24 at the earliest? And she doesn’t seem like a NEW prof, so I’m assuming she’s at least pushing 30.
A full-time professor job at a big-name college fresh outta grad school with a baby-faced master’s? Ah haahahaha….hahaha….hah, oh god no, no, sweet summer child. That is not even a little bit how academia works. Professors get old and die at their desks while late-20’s researchers on their second of third post-doc pray that they’ll be the first to swoop in after the heart attack going “Look at me, I’m published! Please hire me!”
Source: master’s degree in physics, working on PhD, no end in sight, post-docs forever.
And even then, they’re praying that the administration hasn’t already decided to replace the tenured professor’s job with two or three part-time adjuncts.
You’d be surprised, it’s not uncommon. People think of homeless people as being lazy drug addicts or mentally ill, but in truth, anyone could be a paycheck or two away from homelessness. The stigma makes it hard to get help, but someone who finds themselves in that situation who has the will to get out CAN get out.
I was kicked out of my wealthy home at 18 with no idea of how the real world worked.
By 20 (when I ran out of money) I ended up living in my car for 6 months, and in motels for 8 months after that. Started working one job, then two, then three…
At 22, got sick of working, so I applied back for school.
At 25, I had earned two bachelor’s degrees in physics and astrophysics.
At 27, I earned a master’s degree in physics.
Now I’m 28, I’m on my way to do research at CERN. From being homeless 8 years ago. And I am assuredly not fictional.
Interesting life, sure. But not an uncommon story.
Yeah, I very nearly ended up homeless. Basically if I didn’t get my current job, I was less than two weeks from having to default on my rent and live on the streets.
It’s not only something that happens, but something that can happen very easily in a lot of places, especially when you don’t got a safety net because of shitty or abusive parents.
Most of the homeless people I know personally are in the midst of rebooting their life in some way. One is a sex worker now, but is also in a master’s program for social work. Another is currently applying for their bachelor’s. And another is doing sex work to save up to apply for a PhD program.
An ex-girlfriend is a tenure-track math professor at a smaller school, she got the job before she turned 30. She was actually offered a tenure-track position at an even smaller school when she was 26 and had a master’s, but she decided she wanted the PhD first.
Sounds like she didn’t have the means to attend college right out of high school. A few years to get on her feet, several more to get her degree, a few more years of working experience on top of that before a large state university would hire her as a teacher…
Or thereabouts, probably on the older side of the scale given we can assume she has at least one college degree. (Especially since from the looks of things I’d guess “faculty” rather than “adjunct”, and you can throw a rock and hit an adjunct with a degree.)
Robin seems to be running for her second term, so that doesn’t give us much of a hint. Really though given the circumstances and the sliding time scale, she could be a fresh grad and this backstory would still work.
For IU there are a few possibilities. Full time employees (faculty) have to have doctorates. That is not to say that other people don’t teach at IU. He’ll, I’ve taught there in the past in three different ways. The first time was in my senior year as a undergraduate teaching intern (essentially, an undergraduate AI). I led some smaller weekly sessions. Then I was a grad student who spent a lot of time as an AI of lab courses. Depending on which course it was, I sometimes was pretty independent on how I wanted to run my classes. Lastly, I came back a few times as a visiting instructor as I got my masters, but if I wanted more I needed to get a PhD.
Well, let’s math it out. The earliest she could get a PhD would be 4 years undergrad and then 6 years combined masters/PhD, so ten years. So, assuming she starts classes while homeless at 18 (not unusual, knew a few who had to do that). So that means she’s at least 28 and more likely probably around 29, serving as a combination post-doc/adjunct professor.
I think he represents a certain type of WASP, he means perfectly well, and wants to be kind to people, and lives in a homogenous community that lacks people who ever, ever call him on his serious misconceptions.
He’s basically what I assume what Joyce would be here if she had decided to stay within her community.
Still caring and kind hearted.
But…
Her ideas of what’s acceptable and not are colored in for her.
He was sort of a perfect example of a ‘tolerant’ Christian, one who would still like you and want to help you even if you were gay/lesbian, but who would also try to get you to go to conversion therapy and gently say homosexuality is wrong every time it remotely comes up in conversation.
Not mean, trying to help, but he would still end up hurting people with his beliefs.
Gets upset about being a “oppressed minority”, probably complains about political correctness and “all lives matter”. Voted for Trump. Grudgingly and will regret it, if he doesn’t already.
But would also probably get really mad if you called him out as a bigot, because he’s got an internal justification where he’s a “nice guy” who “loves the sinners, just not their sin”.
So basically every whiny asshole out in force of late complaining that they’re being viewed as a bigot just because they voted for a fascist who promised to do bigoted things.
I feel like Joyce’ll interact with him at some point further down her character arc. It’ll be a nice little show of both how much she’s changed and a nice drama bomb for Leslie to deal with.
I’m sorry about your uncle. :/ My boyfriend is an alcoholic, but thankfully one who’s been sober for a bit over two years now. I get the gravity of it.
Pablo: I’m sorry it happened and that you and your family had to deal with the heartbreak during and afterward. I hope the wound isn’t fresh.
Queen: Congrats! How did he recover from it and what has helped him stay sober?
My dad is currently one and hasn’t gotten help, but at least he’s cut back. It’s still way too much. He said peach vodka (his favorite) tastes like soda pop. At least he doesn’t drive drunk.
Vice wise, my family is a disaster. My biological mother was a pill popper and addicted to gambling. My brother is an alcoholic, dope head, pain pill addict, and gambling addict. My biological maternal grandfather was an alcoholic, grandmother did various OTC drugs and stuff she could sneak working as a nurse, aunt took lots of pills including vitamins which she (believe it or not) ODed on and had to go in the hospital, my aunt’s son was on drugs and is now in jail again, and various cousins on various things. My paternal papaw was an abusive alcoholic when my dad was young, lots of my great uncles were/are alcoholics, my uncle in law was an alcoholic, my aunt’s son was on hard drugs until he got clean and tried to take the kids away from his heavily addicted/abusive ex wife (but when it didn’t work he took the kids away from her in another way in the former of murder/suicide so grandparents would get them), and so many cousins on stuff or recovering from it.
And me? I have maybe 3 drinks a month during my time of the month and you have to pretty much force me to take so much as an aspirin. I’ve never been to a party or club and I voted to legalized medical marijuana even though I’ve never seen it much less tried it (my cousin who survived cancer would have died without it easing pain and allowing her to eat). I’ve tried to gamble twice but found it boring and cashed out using my winnings (yes I was winning and still found it boring) to buy some things I was saving for. I’m very budget conscious and have no problem with old clothes. I’ve never even liked caffeine! Basically from a young age I looked at my family and decided to do the opposite of that. I’ve never been judgemental of others and what they like to do though; I just know my family is full of addictive personalities and rather from random genetics or learned behavior I don’t crave things that my family does on an unhealthy level. I can occasionally get really into a video game though.
She may not be from Indiana. If she’s an adjunct, assistant, or even associate professor–which is likely, given that she’s under the age of 45 and she’s teaching an entry-level class–she’ll probably have gone to whatever university would hire her and/or pay her enough to live on.
Age of consent for marriage in Indiana according to family.findlaw.com is 16 and is the same in most (but not all) states, although marriage at a younger age is permitted *without* a court decision if the parents consent. If she had her parents’ support, which it sounds like she did, she wouldn’t have had to be or claim that she was pregnant.
The Indiana General Assembly also seems to support you’d need a court petition, but I will admit I only skimmed it and so it’s entirely possible I read it wrong. My apologies if I have!
That’s before you account for cases that slip through the cracks without all appropriate due process. Note, for example, that the records of such a filing are to be held in confidentiality and require a court order to be examined.
Family consent, family pressure, same diff. I’m going to guess young Leslie was offered a stark choice of marrying a man and getting “right” or getting sent off to be made “right”.
I’d gotten the impression it was more internal pressure (probably derived from upbringing, of course.)
“I can’t be this thing that I’ve been taught is horrible. I’ll prove it by marrying a guy right away.”
My older brother got married at 15 or 16. He was in love with this girl than was a few years older than them. His mother signed, but dad refused saying he was too young and the girl was on drugs. Dad isn’t sure how he got married without his consent. She got him hooked on drugs, his grades dive bombed, he became a different person (violent, short tempered, con, mooch, cruel, no common sense, short sighted, destructive…), and his life went to hell. They got divorced when he was 17 or so. The damage had been done. He’s been on and off drugs since. He’s in his late 40s and a manipulative violent asshole even without drugs. When he’s on them he’s very dangerous to himself and others. He’s also very abusive nearly killing his second wife (a wonderful woman I have no clue how he sweet talked into marrying him) and beating the crap out of his 2 kids. When she got the strength to leave we kept her and thew him away. He got married again and got in a fist fight with a bunch of strangers over nonsense leaving his pregnant wife curled in a ball hiding in the truck (they were headed to church and he was driving and pulled over taking the keys with him). He came back with his white shirt stained red and the crap beat out of him. She miscarried soon after and divorced him before their 1st anniversary. His last gal he wouldn’t marry so he couldn’t be found for child support. She was ex military but that didn’t stop him from getting abusive, controlling, and threatening. He took her truck and bolted telling her that she was gonna keep paying for it and she would regret it if she fucked with him. He kept it until the tags expired and then some and it was repossessed because he was driving without tags and insurance.
We tried to help him. Dad paid for rehab several times. He bought him stuff. Would help him get a place. It never worked out. It got really bad and dad starting worrying about my safety and the safety of his grandkids, so he cut him out of his life. The last chance we gave him was 2 years ago when he swore he was clean, working, and going to try to pay child support and that all he wanted was a relationship with us. It didn’t end well.
I didn’t mean to make people feel bad! I just wanted to say that getting married really young can mess your life up in the long haul . There are some who got married as minors and did great, but honestly most teens are nowhere near ready to adult.
Honestly, I could write a book about my life and people would think it had to be fiction or that I fudged the details. Like just yesterday I learned the lawyer I paid for an order of separation and protection against my ex took the money and never filed. He told me it went through and he was just waiting for my ex to be served. My ex hasn’t be harassing me for 2 months so I never knew he had conned me. Plus, him charging me for a protection order is illegal. I found all this out when I happen to be at the police station to get a background check for my new apartment and wanted to make sure my ex had been served. So now I have to sue the lawyer, but I have to get in line behind over 100 other former clients who are also suing him. I went to him because he took the office over that use to belong to my lawyer (he passed away a few years ago). This is only one thing that has happened in the last few weeks (emergency root canal, dog had to get a tooth fixed, a trespasser in the woods killing our deer while wearing no orange, dad’s truck randomly broke down and had to be replaced, stomach virus, panic attack, dad’s dog is having seizures, …) I have an odd life.
There’s nothing saying that she wasn’t pregnant. She said she thought “the deed” would fix her, which sounds like she thought she could cure herself of being a lesbian by having sex. Getting pregnant is a common consequence of sex. Why does she say nothing about a child? Well, miscarriages are not uncommon in young women either.
She’s in her late twenties so mathematically if she has a child and they show up at uni, it would probably be with the father in tow. if Leslie’s hypothetical child were to enroll at IU, they wouldn’t turn up without a flash forward until like 2386 rl time. 😛
She wouldn’t have been pregnant before marrying, and I seem to remember that they didn’t even consume the marriage at least for a while, but I don’t know where I get it from.
Nah, no “until” just at least once a week. Part of the job. Always have someone else ready to take all you think you know about what’s best for other people and rake that muck so you have to smell your own bad thinking.
In practice, there’d be no way to pull that off without someone corrupting the process somehow. I can just see the Family Research Council (as just one example) stacking up their people to be the ones that the politicians have this kind of hard talk with.
You know what? Let them. Let any group be on the list to get in on the weekly lunch and/or dinner with the elected official. And, let it be policed to make sure that there’s a diversity of lives and opinions.
And, yes, let FRC get their people in, if only so that someone who gets an up-close and personal experience with the fact that the people FRC hates are, in fact, people can also get the up-close and personal experience with the rhetoric used against them, to be able to handle it when it comes up in legislation, and it freaking will.
She might, probably even rightly so, feel it is too late to make such radical changes to her policies. I think she would be better off, if she does indeed decide to change her policies, withdrawing from the running altogether, and starting again anew next time. Probably in connection with a different party.
Well, radical party switch has been done before, but based on Robin’s categorization of the district, I doubt that she’d win her re-election campaign. Or worse, would only be able to do that by doubling down harder on policies of racism and sexism to “make up” for not hating enough on the queers.
“Do Lesbians have a radar for other lesbians? As that might explain the weird sensation I’ve had since the moment I set eyes on you…”
“Are you still trying to flirt with me even after what I just told you?!”
“No, that was a serious question. The weird sensation is scaring me.”
I know Leslie is fictional but I also know from this comment board and others that her situation is anything but. All I can say is: I’m so sorry if you ever found yourself in a similar situation, I hope you’re in a better place now (both mentally and physically). You deserve so much better than lies and shunning by people who say they’re of a faith based on compassion
Closer to Joyce, though beginning-of-DoA Joyce. He means well, but I wouldn’t bet on him evolving the way Joyce has, because he’s kind of gormless and doesn’t have Joyce’s empathy.
Well… Keep in mind, we didn’t see that much of him. What we did see was a guy without a mean bone in his body – even while holding terrible opinions, he was still trying to be supportive toward Leslie.
He seems to mean well, but he’s unintentionally a bit of a dick (thinks Christians are the most oppressed group, does the whole ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ bullshit with LGBT+ folks, etc.) Think early Joyce.
As nice as Joyce, kind, well meaning, but even when he (kinda) started to try he never could let go of his homophobia. Wasn’t mean about it, treated it sort-of like depression or some other unfortunate mental illness but the fact that he never really accepted Leslie definitely hurt her (since even after their divorce she liked him and she had always thought of him as a friend.)
Nice enough but still very much a bigot and to set in his ways to really change.
Oh. Man. FUCK. This was just a gut-punch. *gives Leslie all the hugs*
I am so happy that she is now happy and healthy and has a career she loves and is in a position to help kids who are struggling like she used to. OH MAN. And she knows not everyone gets to be in the position she is in today. I love her so much and I have so much respect for her. She’s taking this opportunity to tell Robin exactly how it is. Go, Leslie.
And if this doesn’t have *any* impact on Robin, then I guess we’ve gotta accept that Robin is lost to the dark side for good in this universe. I am an optimist, but I honestly don’t know about how this will turn out. *bites nails*
Great strip today. Just really fucking great. A+++
I really respect that Leslie was willing to do this. She didn’t have to, and for all she knew it would do nothing or cause Robin to double down and endanger herself and/or other LGBT people even further. That she did it anyway, on the hope that someone with little reason to even acknowledge her would actually LISTEN… That’s not easy, and all too often opposing views fall on deaf ears out of habit if nothing else.
Out of DOA-verse, respect to Willis for making this backstory reveal (granted, one that was already foreshadowed, but whatever) seem so organic. It doesn’t come across like someone yelling “THIS IS MY TRAGIC PAST!” apropos of nothing, but like a genuine conversation. That’s not an easy narrative feat.
Yeah, spilling out the tragic past isn’t easy, but Leslie hopes that by doing so here, she can do some good. Hopefully she is right and she’s not going to get a massive amount of shit designed to hit her weak points instead. Especially because in sharing her backstory she’s implicitly calling out Robin’s legislative history in a real way and people can react pretty bad to that.
ROBIN: “…Shoulda been liquor. And I know just the kind. Aide!”
AIDE: “Yes, Congresswoman?”
ROBIN: “Take the car and go buy us two bottles of King Cobra, stat!”
AIDE: “King Cobra?! Where am I supposed to find that?”
ROBIN: (sighing) “We’ve been over this. West Street Liquors! You know, that place where you can buy loose cigarettes? That one.”
AIDE: “You do realize you can just buy liquor right here, don’t you? “
I’ve been wondering lately if Robin has any agenda at all beyond “being a congressperson.”
I mean, Shortpacked!Robin didn’t really give a damn about her office until she found things to fight for. Dumbing!Robin’s sole political motivation of which we are aware is “get re-elected.” What did she want in for in the first place?
I propose introducing a “do your fucking job” law that restricts campaigning to a maximum of 6 months. Because if you can’t accurately portray your position in 6 months, you don’t deserve the job.
Runs afoul of our interpretation of the first amendment. Campaigning is free speech and that can’t possibly be restricted. (Except for all the ways we do actually restrict it, but those are all different. Somehow.)
My theory was to ban incumbency – you can’t run for the job while serving. Everyone is replaced after every term. You could of course run again next term, so not a normal term limits proposal.
Problem is, a whole lot of what makes a representative beholden to the public is the fear of being kicked out of office. If that’s going to happen anyways, you might wind up with people doing a lot more things that no one would like.
I do really think they could actually set up a law that limited campaigning while the legislature was in session, though. One that wouldn’t violate the constitution–it would be like workplace rules.
Problem is, the people who would make such laws (or even your “no incumbancy” law) have no incentive to restrict their own actions. People who seek power want to remain in power.
Well, they’d be thinking about the next cycle, so that would still be a factor. And incumbency is already a huge bonus to keeping you from being kicked out.
They could possibly limit their own campaigning, but per Citizen’s United, they couldn’t limit outside, “uncoordinated” third parties from doing so on their behalf. So basically they’d just outsource their reelection campaigns to dark money groups.
Bigger issue with this, and I’d recommend looking up the work of Lee Drutman, is that term limits have been found to actually make most of the problems worse. Thing with term limits is that more often than not what you get is mostly newbies with little policy expertise or experience in government. But lobbyists and interest groups have plenty of those things to offer, so term limits just lead legislators to become very dependent on interest groups to do their job and create policy.
I’d say the comparison to early Joyce is apt. Joyce has become an ally to LGBT rights due to character development but she previously would have taken the same stance as Leo.
Panel 4: “I am a lesbian.” [Robin: This is relevant to my interests]
Rest of strip: “Sweet lesbian facts”. [Robin: THIS IS NOT HOW I HOPED THIS CONVERSATION WOULD GO]
I really hope hearing this from Leslie makes Robin think about the consequences of her terrible politics. If that doesn’t change her views, I don’t know what will.
The last three comics have all ended with Robin reaction faces, and put together they make a very concise summary of how this is going. I hope it keeps up and becomes its own megapost!
Yup. It’s still probably the most money she has seen in her life since having to leave home (if we assume that her parents are rich in this universe too).
I’ve posted this before but I suspect that this is the first time that Robin has actually encountered a real person who has been negatively affected by the policies that she supports, as opposed to abstract and easily-dismissed ‘others’.
Certainly the first one she actually respects and couldn’t just dismiss as “a crazy liberal child” like she did to Leslie’s students.
So it’ll be really interesting to see how Robin responds to that, because there’s gotta be empathy getting hit hard here, but the natural response of a lot of people who get called out on their moral bankruptcy is to try and double down on it and defend it harder.
I think she’s also at least hoping to get Leslie drunk to help her drown her sorrows. So, while not the best solution, she at least is going the right direction–trying to make others hurt less.
Through HS, all I’d ever seen of “the gays” was sensationalist 30-second network news bits about pride parades full of caricatures (assless-chaps bikers, huge hairy dudes in bad drag, you know…) and that one creepy guy in town. If you need a timeframe, I graduated in 1992.
Going to university and meeting real people of all sorts who just happened to be homosexual/bisexual is what changed my mental picture. It didn’t happen overnight, but somehow, when the people are right there in front of you and you can see their feelings and their struggles, it makes it harder to buy the caricatures. Then the research started coming out showing that this wasn’t the “lifestyle choice” that it had been painted as, and I had to say to myself “all evidence contradicts what I had previously been told was true, therefore I must change my conclusion on this matter.”
Plus, my libertarian views started to come to the fore in college, and I decided on issues like gay marriage, “Whatever my gut reaction to these things that I’m still working through, it’s really none of my business who someone else marries, as long as they’re both consenting adult persons.”
I know a few people who married under the age of 18. None of them for happy reasons:
* 2 were brainwashed into accepting it as normal due to families who believe like Joyce but also think that “education gives the Devil a chance to corrupt the weaker sex.”
* 1 who married to escape an abusive household in the 70s, back when a teenage girl living alone would be assumed to be a prostitute.
* 2 who married because they were really fucking horny but also sincerely believed in asbstinence until marriage at the time
* 1 who married for Leslie’s reason – to try to fix her gay
* and 1 who married to hide his gay
… none of them had good experiences with it. I think it’s disgusting that in a First World nation, Canada still allows child marriage to as young as 16. Until recently (by “recently” I mean “two years ago”), it was technically legal as young as 7. I disagree with the Conservatives reasoning for the change – theirs was xenophobia rather than just recognizing that times have changed since the 1800s and it’s in the best interest of kids to stay in school – but the only way I disagree with the law is that I don’t think it’s restrictive enough.
Ugh, right? It’s like “Okay, good that the law passed but for the wrong reason gdi.”
I guess the logic for it being 16 is that if you’re old enough to fuck, if your parents are okay with it you should be theoretically old enough to wed? Which is so so messed up I can’t even unpack it all right now, jfc.
There are exceptions to almost any general statement (including this one) but on average teenage marriage is a bad idea for the same reasons expecting teenagers to make any other binding long term decision is a bad idea.
The average age of puberty, especially for girls, has gotten younger over the many years, likely due both to nutritional and environmental factors.
Over the same span, the socially acceptable age of marriage has gone up, due to a host of cultural factors (most of them good). There’s more to learn and fewer low-skill/low-knowledge jobs, so education takes longer. Recognition of women as full human beings with all the rights that entails. Etc.
This is part of why the modern concept of the “teenager” — not a child AND not an adult — has come into being.
As a result, there’s a much wider gap in time between “becomes a sexual being” and “is socially allowed to express that part of their being” than there was 100+ years ago.
Nope. The overwhelming majority of women back then married in their late teens to their early to mid 20s, same as now. We can prove this via church records. The girls who married that young were usually nobles or higher ups trying to marry advantageously and that was more ‘lock down this advantageous marriage NOW and secure it with a baby ASAP’ than it was any kind of ‘this is a person who is socially, emotionally, mentally, psychologically, and physically mature enough for marriage’.
Also, most of the evidence we’ve seen from the average person in those days shows a mix of shock and revulsion towards nobles marrying off their children that young. It was very much a class thing.
The idea that most girls married young comes from the Victorian era mangling historical facts to justify their own view of how the world works, more than any factual basis in what happened.
ok. my heart is breaking for Leslie over here. she was a baby lesbian right after the AIDS crisis, so that really was a hugely homophobic time. i wish i could give Leslie hugs.
The person who called Leslie “my lesbian” for years before ever using her name?
Yeah, pretty much. Her heart’s basically in the right place, but she doesn’t really pay much attention to other people.
I’m just going to say it: I do not see these two getting together over the course of this comic, at least not in the foreseeable future. To go from the position these two are in right now to any point at which it would make sense for them to be together would take time, in-universe. And maybe more time than we’re going to get.
I can see that. I mean, least we forget, it took Leslie and Robin in Shortpacked! the better part of at least 4 years and two election cycles to really click as a couple.
I love Dumbing of Age, but this and the previous strip might be my least favorite strips in the entire archive. Leslie is here dropping truth bombs on a powerful subject (albeit one he’s trod very, very well and is continuing to tread with Becky, so this is a little redundant), and in both strips any power and tension generated by this moment is obliterated by Robin mugging at the camera with a “it’s a living! Womp womp” moment.
Robin is a living Looney Tunes character that barely worked in Shortpacked!, a gag-a-day strip. In the (relatively) realistic world of Dumbing of Age, she is cancer incarnate. She sucks the potential out of any strip she appears in, and she would do so whether or not she was a Republican congresswoman. It doesn’t help that Becky is basically her and fills her role, but superior in every way, shape and form. Becky was raised by Christian nuts, so she’s allowed to be this socially awkward happy doofus. Robin is a grown-ass woman and an elected official, and while I realize her position is a commentary on “politics is a job for dopes/government is run by idiots”, her being “THE Republican” of the story and being a dim, but ultimately well-meaning huckster is, considering the pedigree this comic has, a particularly toothless jab.
Moreover, considering the current political climate and taking into account I know that Willis is keenly aware of just what evil the modern GOP is up to, it’s incredibly odd to see his stand in for “current, conservative government” be this loveable goofball that could essentially end every one of her sentences with a fucking slide whistle. I’m aware this strip’s whole thing is “plug characters from earlier comics into new roles!” but some people straight up don’t fit, and Robin is number one on that list. Willis needs to start using her to make some very pointed commentary about the current GOP (i.e. making her about ten thousand percent more sinister), or at the very least make her something more than “Becky, Mk. II”. Failing that, quietly have her dissolve into the background after this arc is done and never mention her again.
By the way, the whole “not fitting” thing goes double for Galasso and Lucy. They were hilarious and actually made sense in Shortpacked!, but they stick out like a huge unfunny thumb in DoA, and any time they show up anyone who hasn’t read SP! has this huge, flow breaking “wtf!?” moment. But I digress.
I think we’re going to have to disagree here. DoA has always been a mix of comedy and drama. Some characters only fit one tone super well, and some manage both. Robin fits comedy better because due to parental neglect she works too hard at being wacky, zany, and generally eccentric because she wants attention.
If this is about ‘breaking up tension’ – what you said exactly but without being sarcastic? That’s intentional. Tension is good, but not at the expense of becoming soul suckingly dreary. It also has to do with what characters would say or do in a given position – “I need a freaking drink to process the bombs being dropped on my world view” isn’t very dramatic, but it is a common enough response and it’s one Robin would have.
Robin is not ‘THE Republican’. A fair chunk of the case was raised by Republican houses – Joyce, Agatha, Mary, Amber, Danny, Ethan, Becky, etc. Whether those match their views in the face of further life experience may have changed, but that’s where their starting point was. Robin is not your only representation here. Also, the point isn’t ‘lol, Republicans are so zany and lovable even while doing horrible things’ it’s ‘hey, Robin’s doing these horrible things, will that stand up when people continue telling her that they’re horrible?’ It’s not about ‘this is what the Republicans are – fun and zany’ so much as ‘Does Robin – who is funny and zany – fit with these horrible things her party is doing’?
These strips were written months ago, over the summer. I’m sure we’ll be hearing plenty more about how Republicans behave generally (probably not specifics because that would date the comic) but months-ago Willis had no way of knowing what would be going on right now.
Galasso resides squarely in the comedic portion of the comic, which is still a valid half of the story. It is still part of the plot. It doesn’t have to be your favourite part of the plot and its perfectly okay to wish Willis would focus on other parts you do like, but it is still a legitimate part of the story.
I’m curious what part of the story you don’t think Lucy fits. I guarantee that IU has some shipper fixated fandom nerds in there somewhere, and as it stands she showed up twice – once to say hi to Marcie and have her and Malaya make fun of her and then when she interrupts Marcie trying to cuddle up to Malaya and get told off for it – the joke being ‘lol, Marcie got clit blocked’ and the more ‘dramatic’ plot point being to further her having problems connecting romantically with Malaya, setting up Marcie being worried about whether Malaya is into girls at all. It’s not like she’s popped up out of nowhere to randomly insert fandom stuff on the regular. She’s at best, a tertiary supporting character to a secondary main character (Marcie), so it doesn’t really matter.
First off, I got the name of the character wrong: when I said Lucy, I meant the lady who’s Galasso’s yelling subordinate that gets fired from the pizza place. My bad.
I also thought about the buffer thing. The first thing I thought was “I wonder if Willis would have wrote this AFTER Trump got elected”. My hope is that we’ll see Republicans taken to task the same way Christians were with Toedad. My point was you can’t do that with Robin as your “Republican establishment” stand-in. And that’s her role: No one else in the cast, from what I can remember, has specific ties to a specific party. Anyone else who could be labeled “Republican” is religious before they are political so far (Joyce’s parents, Toedad, etc).
As for the whole Robin fitting in thing: She doesn’t. She never has. Every time Robin’s shown up in this strip, it’s like she’s doing her best ad-libbing a part that wasn’t written for her. Robin is very clearly an antagonist, of a group that, even before the election, was clearly in “the bad guys” territory, and Willis has never shied from showing bad guys be bad guys (Amber’s dad, etc). This series of strips COULD be “voice of embattled LGBT minority group” having a heart to heart with “Republican voter base”, and it could be poignant. Instead, because it’s Robin, it’s now “Voice of embattled LGBT minority group has a heart to heart with Robin (played as always by Yakko Warner) pretending to be a Republican”.
If it’s Willis’ intent to separate Robin from her party with this arc, i.e. “Robin is hearing these bad things and has a crisis of faith”, and intends the story therefore to be more about Robin’s character than a commentary on Republicans, I think that’s unbelievably silly and an even more glaring case of “Robin didn’t really fit in this role but there was no other place for this Walkyverse character in my story, soooo…”. An incredibly young congresswoman who gets to her seat based entirely on “i ‘unno” and telling people what they want to hear without a second’s though as to what she’s actually doing is a 12 year old’s political cartoon come to life, it’s not how anyone actually operates in the real world, and that’s where DoA gets its strength. DoA characters feel like real people and work best as such.
I’ve known people in my life who act like most people in the DoA cast, they’re incredibly relatable and human, save for Robin. Nobody acts like Robin after they’ve gotten out of college, and if they do, they’re never in charge of anything important (This argument also applies to Galasso. He’s not even remotely a real person, so he sticks out like five sore thumbs).
Again, I’m willing to chalk it up to the whole buffer thing, but whether or not it was his intent, he’s going incredibly soft on Republicans here. Republicans who are out of college and have spent time in the real world are not “good people who are ignorant/misinformed”. They’re people who have forgotten what empathy is and who want to be part of the winning conquerors no matter what. They have destroyed facts and political discourse. They are dangerous and terrifying, and that goes triple for anyone actually willing to campaign under that banner. DoA could throw some pretty epic spice at that group, but not with Robin as their avatar.
I hope this arc is about Robin coming to her senses, leaving her office, and living happily forever after with Leslie. That way, she can appear even less than Leslie does and ruin the minimal amount of strips with her cartoon mugging.
I think we’re going to have to disagree on what Robin’s point is and whether or not its a good thing – the way I see it, Robin is a character who very much craves both attention and affection but does not see herself as appealing, so she amps up the zaniness to 11 to keep things up, up, up all the time – no room for angst, nuance, trauma, everything is fine, keep moving, nooooo don’t introspect or ask me to introspect, I am fine, keep it moving, oh hey I’m just going to ‘comically’ miss your piercing question’s point, ahahaha, laugh, come on, it’s funny, I’m so funny, love me already’ – sort of like Becky if she were at Defcon 1 all the time, but Robin’s not hiding herself because she wants to pretend everything lousy is okay so people don’t worry. She does it because she wants them to like her. I known of plenty of people who’ve needed attention and affection who take things to 11 because they can’t stand anything serious to happen – because they perceive that as ‘something bad’ and any sources of pain or friction are to be avoided at all costs. So, for me, Robin’s always felt like she could be a real person – even if I’d never met people like that, it seems plausible enough to me that Robin doesn’t feel jarringly unrealistic.
Willis has already said her being a congressperson was meant to be a throwback to Walkyverse where she was one – it seemed like it was originally a ‘why not’ kind of idea, as he said he wanted her to be older than the kids and since he’d decided Leslie would be a teacher, it’d fit better for more Walkyverse callbacks, this time ship wise. Seemed at the time like it was originally intended to fit square in the middle of the comedy side.
Fair enough about Galasso and Sydney, though their lack of realism doesn’t really bother me since they A) Likewise, barely appear, B) Aren’t ENTIRELY impossible (overly dramatic, overly controlling, ambitious, and eccentric business owners/college students exist, so it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility – kind of like half of AG’s stunts. Unlikely in the extreme, but not theoretically impossible) and C) Again, they’re pretty much confined to the comedic side thus far, which has always been a bit more cartoony and Shortpacked!-esque.
Robin could have fit in other places – She’s Roz’s sister, he could have easily just had her living in the city or coming by to surprise Roz after the sex tape scandal and meet Leslie that way. He could have made her a student and stuck her in the main cast instead of or in addition to Roz. She could have been another teacher or a sports coach. He chose to make her a congressperson as a nod to the fans who came from the Walkyverse. Acting like this was the only way she’d fit in the cast is not true. It’s one thing to think she doesn’t fit the role she has, but it’s disingenuous to pretend she’d have no role at all in DoA otherwise.
Change is one of the principle themes of the comic. Everyone grows and changes as parts of their worldview change or fall away. I don’t think continuing that theme with Robin and getting in some pointed political commentary will necessarily be mutually exclusive. She’s definitely going to need to come up against her party at some point and decide whether she can really keep supporting it – that’s a scenario rife with potential commentary. Robin was always going to be Robin, she was never meant to be different just to portray a Republican.
…You’ve never seen a person who acts like Robin post-college? I’ve known of a few – again, folks who need everything to be up, up, up and keep any and all introspection, consequences, and seriousness of any kind to a minimum. And people of all stripes end up being in charge of things – and some of them are laughably incompetent. We’ve all had people who were in a professional scenario where we end up going ‘why the fuck are you here’ and sometimes even ‘holy shit how do you remember to breathe?’
A) People most definitely do get elected telling people what they want to hear. Plenty of elections through history can demonstrate that. B) Robin’s actual campaigning seems heavily heavily coached by her staff, and what they’ve written seems more politically plausible than what Robin would say on her own. If she looks good campaigning, there is a shot. C) There are plenty of people who vote based on party alone. They’ll vote for whoever the Republicans run. D) She’s a Representative, in Congressional elections. Very few people research them and they tend to have low turn out. The demographics that do turn out for those tend to be ones that swing more conservative, so it would be rather easy for Robin to end up in her seat. As for Galasso, he began his own business. You can say his personality is unrealistic, but saying he would never be in charge of anything when he began his business venture himself is silly.
There are a LOT of Republicans who change their minds long after college. Plenty of them are simply utter bastards, yes, but there are also plenty of people who do not get it. Either because they’ve been sheltered beyond all belief, have never seen information about how bad problems like homophobia get, or any other reasons. Yes, many of them are exactly as you describe them, but there are plenty who aren’t – some of them are even on this board, I’m sure. Some people have their revelation in college. Some have it earlier. Some have it way later. Acting like someone can’t possibly have their ‘shit, I’m an asshole who has been fucking up this entire time’ revelation later is simply untrue.
This storyline (Robin and Leslie) has just begun picking up. I’m sure as it continues, it will get you the spice you want. Maybe not flung at Robin, depending how much she changes, but definitely as it goes on and probably at people far worse than Robin.
Your opinion is more than fair and I completely respect it. This is just mine and I’m just trying to explain it the best way I can.
These past two strips would definitely have been stronger without the apparently mandatory last panel punchlines. Like yeah, DoA is meant to walk the line between comedy and drama but sometimes it stumbles and I feel like this is one of those times.
This one… hits. So I’m gonna ramble a bit on this one, I’m afraid.
Panel 1: “Welp, problem solved and I didn’t even have to question my convictions in a meaningful way. I’m sure the rest of this conversation will go swimmingly and… (if we happen to wake up in each other’s bed with less clothes on, then whoopsy-daisy, dearie-me, amirite?)”
Panels 2-3: I ramble a lot about myself. I know this. But, part of that is because if my story can help others. Can let people know about what people like me face or make a person who’s going through the same thing feel a bit less alone, then it feels worth it to take that risk and share it.
And well… that’s not always a neutral action. I’ve had people. Dangerous people try and hurt me because of what I’ve freely shared and I’ve had some coming outs that went disastrously wrong. Hell, I’ve shared the horrifying aftermath of some of them. I’ve had what I’ve shared used to abuse me, to discredit me, to try and gaslight me about my identity.
But it still feels important to not just hide away and pretend it’s all fine and present a happy fiction to the world. And I’ve felt like I’ve done good at times in sharing my experiences and using them to connect with folks. As scary as it has been at times.
But I can’t even imagine what it must be like for Leslie here. To do that with someone who’s behind hostile laws against people like you, who may very well use your story in terrifying and horrifying ways or worse yet shrug it off like nothing important… That takes some guts of iron and steel. So for her to barrel through anyways?
Is she saying she wishes she was too drunk for that to bother her or that she wish Leslie was more so they would be making out instead of talking about this? cause both are shitty
Panels 4-5: Oof. This hits home hard. Cause, I’ve mentioned it before, but I very nearly ended up homeless like Becky and Leslie for very similar reasons involving my folks wanting me “fixed” and refusing to love the girl I was rather than the boy they wanted me to continue to pretend to be.
And I had to live in poverty for awhile right on the cusp of homelessness, going back into the closet just to survive, because the only other choice was “getting fixed”. And I spent a time when I just suspected I was trans, trying to still pretend I was a boy hoping that would mean the terrible “sweet lesbian facts” wouldn’t come for me. And they all fucking did, right down to long-term relationships being treated like meaningless short-term flings.
And well… I’m trans. Our homeless numbers are off the charts and so I know a lot of folks personally who are homeless or in dangerous living situations because they are trying to avoid becoming homeless. A far few who’ve had to turn to sex work and I do mean had to turn to sex work to survive rather than just choosing it fully willingly though I’ve known a few who’ve done that as well.
I’ve chipped in a few bucks where I can for friends literally freezing or starving where they are and now that I have a little cushion, I try always to leave something for those who have to beg to survive. Not even out of as much morality as I wish I could claim but simply because I can’t not. Not while knowing how thin the bridge between them and I was.
And yeah, plenty of my friends have horror stories of shelters, religious charities, and domestic violence centers being incredibly bigoted and hostile to them when they were in need. Watching still others, both distant friends and kids I’ve mentored, not make it, turning to suicide or just succumbing to a bad winter. And too many to count get dangerously close to that edge.
After a while, it numbs you quite a bit. And I, like Leslie, crawled out as best I could. Got a job teaching and have tried to protect my kids as best I can from all the shit me and mine had to go through, though I haven’t been able to do nearly as much as I’d like or wish I could and that haunts me.
And if Leslie is anything like me, then that period homeless (or nearly homeless in my case), of receiving abuse from family that swore to love you no matter what, that still feels like yesterday. Still feels a moment away in time, threatening to swallow you up if you ever trip.
So yeah, I identify with Leslie here. And it makes me cry.
Panel 6: This! This is the bit that so many politicians and those voting have forgotten. Politics isn’t a game, where sports team A beats sports team B and outside of meaningless points on a scoreboard, it doesn’t actually matter that much in terms of life and death.
Politics directly determines if some people live or some people die. When I was going through hell, I attempted suicide… a lot. And I self-injured even more than that. If it wasn’t for Obamacare, I don’t think I would have made it, because Obamacare let me get some real doctors for the first time in this country since childhood and let me move forward with my transition in ways that felt real rather than just marking time and waiting for Godot.
In this election, my fiancee is in genuine fear that there’ll be camps and I can’t honestly say that they are wrong in that fear. I’ve had to make contingency plans in case I need to make a rapid escape from this country.
Because this shit is life or death. And when the stakes are such, not everyone lives. Had an old mentee kill herself on Election Night. Because she was that scared of Trump and what that meant for her chances of survival. And the call-ins to the suicide hotlines, especially the queer ones have redlined in volume.
And so we need to end this worldview of “winning and losing” and instead really hammer home to all the priviledged assholes treating this like an opportunity to “stick it” to their perceived enemies that their little fascist temper-tantrums are literally killing real people. Not monsters. Not figments of the imagination. But real people with real dreams and hopes for a future they will never see.
That this shit genuinely matters. That ignoring a rape survivor or passing a bathroom law or letting a hate speaker come to your campus just means that one less fewer person wakes up tomorrow than otherwise would have.
Cause as Leslie notes, we’re fucking dying out here and begging for people to finally come and give a damn.
I know this is 3 days later and nobody will read this, but anyway…
I am sorry that you and your friends had to go through those terrible things. I’m glad that you are in a good enough place to speak about others’ troubles rather than just struggling to survive yourself.
And as you go on to say, sometimes a personal connection opens people’s eyes. Heck, even Darth Cheney himself was all “Nope, I’m out” when the Republicans embarked on BanGayMarriagePalooza ’04. (Aside: how sad is it that Dick Cheney seems much more sympathetic, reasonable, and dare I say presidential, than our actual president-elect!?)
Regarding “letting a hate speaker come to your campus” — sometimes people’s hands are tied, unfortunately. We recently had the misfortune of having our campus invaded by Mr. Alt-Right himself (he was most definitely NOT invited by us, as our university president made clear), but as we are a public university and the room he used was available for rent by the public, we’d be inviting a 1st amendment lawsuit (which we’d likely lose) by preventing his appearance. So instead we held a festival celebrating love/tolerance/unity/etc. at the same time, which had several thousand attendees vs. the dozen or so supporters (most from out of town) and 50-100 protestors at his talk.
I tend to agree with the sentiment that the solution to bad speech is not censorship, but more (good) speech, but that’s easy to say when you’re not the one being targeted by the hate speech.
Panels 7-8: I’d like to believe this is it hammering home for Robin. The cost of her policies in the lives of others. But I dunno…
A lot of folks when confronted with their own moral bankruptcy or complicity with evil just double the fuck down, trying to justify their weak-ass shit with mounds and mounds of bullshit. Hell, we’ve already seen Robin do that once in class in her defense of her voting record in the context of Joyce’s appeal on behalf of Becky.
So I fear for Leslie here and hope that Robin’s massive crush on Leslie is enough to really hammer this shit through to her on a real level.
The part that might hammer it home to Robin is the crush on Leslie, but first she has to realize that it’s actually a crush. It’s harder to ignore when you realize you’re part of the target group.
Even that’s not always enough though. Some use their money and power to insulate themselves from the reality. We’ll see where Robin goes.
I admit to being very dense about this sort of thing, but… what have we seen on the pages, here in DoA, to establish the existence of this massive crush?
Someone said Willis had established a “carryover rule” for the sexuality of most characters from IW and SP… is that what the conclusion is based on?
If it leads to the realization that she’s part of the minority she’s been exploiting to gain power? More possibly.
I’m working off the assumption that Robin’s in the same state of denial she was in at the start of SP and stayed in until fairly near the end. Moving from “straight” to “straight with an exception” to “bi”.
Of course, that took her a long time. Denial is definitely a talent of Robin’s, so it might well take longer here too.
By the way, major props to Leslie for just laying it out on the table in full honesty, and not letting this simmer on for another real-life year in unspoken confusion and “dramatic tension”.
Form letters, petitions, statistics and discussions are fairly limited, but emails can be moderately effective, especially when people send lots of emails about the same topics.
You are correct that personal meetings, phone calls, and attending town meetings/events they go to are the best though.
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“Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing Pixie Stix.”
Beer is deer, but liquor is quicker.
I’m assuming you mean ‘dear’, as in ‘near and dear’, and not ‘deer’ as in ‘doe, a deer, a female deer’… but I really hope you mean ‘deer’
Cause venison’s a sin.
Well you shouldn’t eat Venetians, its not nice.
What about Venusians?
Illegal aliens are fair game.
What about documented Venusians?
GOODNIGHT, EVERYBODY
Plus it really fucks up the blinds.
Open and shut case.
And sweets are treats!
And candy is dandy!
brb, acquisiting caramels
Candy is dandy, but caramel is terrible!
…Get out.
I just said it because it sort of rhymed! (unless you say CAR-mel instead of CARE-a-mull, in which case “caramel is horrible!” …oops, not really defending myself well here)
It’s pronounced “ka-ra-mell” in the UK. I’ve honestly not heard those ways of pronouncing it.
Also now I want caramel chocolate.
Carmel is just South of Monterey and North of Big Sur, not chewy at all. Twee little shops.
“shit, I didn’t realize I’d have to deal with REPERCUSSIONS”
…still doing better than if Trump were there
OH MAN JELLYBEAN FACE IS IN DOA
DisGonBeGud.gif
Which one is jelly bean face???
Is that the ‘Leo’ Willis refers to in the alt-text? Not a Walkyverse reader, so assuming it has something to do with that…
Yeah. Leo is the guy that Leslie (very briefly) married.
He fits somewhere between Joyce without character growth, and Mary without malice. Leo is oblivious to how and why he and his religion are hurting people around him.
Whereas Robin had an epiphany today about exactly how she has been hurting people her whole life, Leo is the kind of guy who would offer (likely pre-packaged and regurgitated) rationalizations instead. And then, baffled, wonder why they don’t work on people who aren’t fellow Christians.
Ah, a lovely re-read through the last days of Shortpacked.
Thankee.
GOSH DARNIT GIGAFREAK! Because of that link I jsut reread Les and Robin’s wedding and now I’m crying because of feels. Dang it! Double Dang it! I didn’t need that
Does Hillary or Trump even exist in the DoA universe?
“One Direction” does, so probably.
Hillary does, as confirmed by Carla.
Thanks! ^_^
considering that he just revealed that even he was shocked about the election results, I think he’s having sooo much fun realizing he now has responsibilities too
How old is Leslie? Late 20s? Mid 30s?
Well, she’s a college professor, so she’s gotta at least have a Master’s, yeah? So that’d make her probably 23, 24 at the earliest? And she doesn’t seem like a NEW prof, so I’m assuming she’s at least pushing 30.
Wait, she said she spent years dealing with this. She’s gotta be in her 30s at least.
A full-time professor job at a big-name college fresh outta grad school with a baby-faced master’s? Ah haahahaha….hahaha….hah, oh god no, no, sweet summer child. That is not even a little bit how academia works. Professors get old and die at their desks while late-20’s researchers on their second of third post-doc pray that they’ll be the first to swoop in after the heart attack going “Look at me, I’m published! Please hire me!”
Source: master’s degree in physics, working on PhD, no end in sight, post-docs forever.
And even then, they’re praying that the administration hasn’t already decided to replace the tenured professor’s job with two or three part-time adjuncts.
Is Leslie certainly a professor or a PHD who gets to teach? I forget if that;s been confirmed.
Leslie’s a professor, I’m pretty sure.
A fairly young one though – word of Willis was late 20s last I heard.
Which would make for a very interesting life, considering she was homeless at 18. Kind of a big change there.
You’d be surprised, it’s not uncommon. People think of homeless people as being lazy drug addicts or mentally ill, but in truth, anyone could be a paycheck or two away from homelessness. The stigma makes it hard to get help, but someone who finds themselves in that situation who has the will to get out CAN get out.
I was kicked out of my wealthy home at 18 with no idea of how the real world worked.
By 20 (when I ran out of money) I ended up living in my car for 6 months, and in motels for 8 months after that. Started working one job, then two, then three…
At 22, got sick of working, so I applied back for school.
At 25, I had earned two bachelor’s degrees in physics and astrophysics.
At 27, I earned a master’s degree in physics.
Now I’m 28, I’m on my way to do research at CERN. From being homeless 8 years ago. And I am assuredly not fictional.
Interesting life, sure. But not an uncommon story.
Yeah, I very nearly ended up homeless. Basically if I didn’t get my current job, I was less than two weeks from having to default on my rent and live on the streets.
It’s not only something that happens, but something that can happen very easily in a lot of places, especially when you don’t got a safety net because of shitty or abusive parents.
Most of the homeless people I know personally are in the midst of rebooting their life in some way. One is a sex worker now, but is also in a master’s program for social work. Another is currently applying for their bachelor’s. And another is doing sex work to save up to apply for a PhD program.
An ex-girlfriend is a tenure-track math professor at a smaller school, she got the job before she turned 30. She was actually offered a tenure-track position at an even smaller school when she was 26 and had a master’s, but she decided she wanted the PhD first.
She’s bi, but she had very supportive parents.
Sounds like she didn’t have the means to attend college right out of high school. A few years to get on her feet, several more to get her degree, a few more years of working experience on top of that before a large state university would hire her as a teacher…
My guess is mid-thirties, maybe 33 or 34.
Looks like 30s to me but I don’t think it’s been stated.
Or thereabouts, probably on the older side of the scale given we can assume she has at least one college degree. (Especially since from the looks of things I’d guess “faculty” rather than “adjunct”, and you can throw a rock and hit an adjunct with a degree.)
Robin seems to be running for her second term, so that doesn’t give us much of a hint. Really though given the circumstances and the sliding time scale, she could be a fresh grad and this backstory would still work.
For IU there are a few possibilities. Full time employees (faculty) have to have doctorates. That is not to say that other people don’t teach at IU. He’ll, I’ve taught there in the past in three different ways. The first time was in my senior year as a undergraduate teaching intern (essentially, an undergraduate AI). I led some smaller weekly sessions. Then I was a grad student who spent a lot of time as an AI of lab courses. Depending on which course it was, I sometimes was pretty independent on how I wanted to run my classes. Lastly, I came back a few times as a visiting instructor as I got my masters, but if I wanted more I needed to get a PhD.
WoWillis is late 20s, a few years older than Jason who’s roughly 22, so she’s probably around 27.
Well, let’s math it out. The earliest she could get a PhD would be 4 years undergrad and then 6 years combined masters/PhD, so ten years. So, assuming she starts classes while homeless at 18 (not unusual, knew a few who had to do that). So that means she’s at least 28 and more likely probably around 29, serving as a combination post-doc/adjunct professor.
27-28 was my rough estimate too, depending on how long her master’s was.
Well done, Leslie. Dang.
I kinda like Leo. He seems really well-meaning, if entirely naive about how other people live.
The devil’s in the details, though, and the fact that he keeps thinking he’s an “oppressed minority” sure doesn’t make me think well of him.
I think he represents a certain type of WASP, he means perfectly well, and wants to be kind to people, and lives in a homogenous community that lacks people who ever, ever call him on his serious misconceptions.
He might turn out to be Hank.
But he’s more likely to be one of the other people who go to Hank’s church.
So, he’s Joyce?
He’s basically what I assume what Joyce would be here if she had decided to stay within her community.
Still caring and kind hearted.
But…
Her ideas of what’s acceptable and not are colored in for her.
He was sort of a perfect example of a ‘tolerant’ Christian, one who would still like you and want to help you even if you were gay/lesbian, but who would also try to get you to go to conversion therapy and gently say homosexuality is wrong every time it remotely comes up in conversation.
Not mean, trying to help, but he would still end up hurting people with his beliefs.
Gets upset about being a “oppressed minority”, probably complains about political correctness and “all lives matter”. Voted for Trump. Grudgingly and will regret it, if he doesn’t already.
But would also probably get really mad if you called him out as a bigot, because he’s got an internal justification where he’s a “nice guy” who “loves the sinners, just not their sin”.
So basically every whiny asshole out in force of late complaining that they’re being viewed as a bigot just because they voted for a fascist who promised to do bigoted things.
Ohhh yeah, exactly that to all three of you.
the problem has always been the nice ones more than the shouty ones. it’s true everywhere
That’s just proof of how straight white cis Christian males are really the oppressed ones.
Who is Leo? The ex-husband? (I am terrible on names of minor SP! characters)
Yep. He only appeared very briefly in SP!, and not at all in DoA.
Thank you 🙂
Not at all in DoA… YET
I feel like Joyce’ll interact with him at some point further down her character arc. It’ll be a nice little show of both how much she’s changed and a nice drama bomb for Leslie to deal with.
so…robin dealing with reality. this is going to be one heck of a unique interaction, no?
She’s dealing with reality by upping the proof of her drink. Not unique at all.
…It’s like trying to find gold in a silver mine
It’s like trying to drink whiskey from a bottle of wine…
Get back Honky Cat
Robin, ya think? (it’s rhetorical, I know she doesn’t usually think things through)
liquor makes everything easier
Save alcoholism
I’d say it REALLY makes alcoholism easier.
Better? No.
EASIER? Yup.
As someone who had at least one uncle die of alcoholism: I want to be angry, but I can’t even. You win.
I’m sorry about your uncle. :/ My boyfriend is an alcoholic, but thankfully one who’s been sober for a bit over two years now. I get the gravity of it.
Pablo: I’m sorry it happened and that you and your family had to deal with the heartbreak during and afterward. I hope the wound isn’t fresh.
Queen: Congrats! How did he recover from it and what has helped him stay sober?
My dad is currently one and hasn’t gotten help, but at least he’s cut back. It’s still way too much. He said peach vodka (his favorite) tastes like soda pop. At least he doesn’t drive drunk.
Vice wise, my family is a disaster. My biological mother was a pill popper and addicted to gambling. My brother is an alcoholic, dope head, pain pill addict, and gambling addict. My biological maternal grandfather was an alcoholic, grandmother did various OTC drugs and stuff she could sneak working as a nurse, aunt took lots of pills including vitamins which she (believe it or not) ODed on and had to go in the hospital, my aunt’s son was on drugs and is now in jail again, and various cousins on various things. My paternal papaw was an abusive alcoholic when my dad was young, lots of my great uncles were/are alcoholics, my uncle in law was an alcoholic, my aunt’s son was on hard drugs until he got clean and tried to take the kids away from his heavily addicted/abusive ex wife (but when it didn’t work he took the kids away from her in another way in the former of murder/suicide so grandparents would get them), and so many cousins on stuff or recovering from it.
And me? I have maybe 3 drinks a month during my time of the month and you have to pretty much force me to take so much as an aspirin. I’ve never been to a party or club and I voted to legalized medical marijuana even though I’ve never seen it much less tried it (my cousin who survived cancer would have died without it easing pain and allowing her to eat). I’ve tried to gamble twice but found it boring and cashed out using my winnings (yes I was winning and still found it boring) to buy some things I was saving for. I’m very budget conscious and have no problem with old clothes. I’ve never even liked caffeine! Basically from a young age I looked at my family and decided to do the opposite of that. I’ve never been judgemental of others and what they like to do though; I just know my family is full of addictive personalities and rather from random genetics or learned behavior I don’t crave things that my family does on an unhealthy level. I can occasionally get really into a video game though.
You’ve almost got the idea Robin, but it’s “lick her“
Not until Leslie is feeling way less conflicted.
So I see it took around six minutes for this joke to appear.
Also, considering it’s been like weeks since I’ve posted, might as well get all of my overly long gags out of the way.
I believe I missed one, but Walky’s not in this comic, so I’m not counting that one. Eh, you all get the point anyways.
Damn it, forgot to close off that <a> tag.
“Years from now, we’ll look back on this moment as the point where the night went to hell.”
If so, it’s unlikely to take years.
Oh, Leslie. Seventeen?
That is just not right. What the FUCK were Leslie’s parents thinking? What the fuck was the COURT thinking?* Did she lie that she was pregnant?
*Indiana law is that age of marriage is 18, 15 in cases of pregnancy with both parental and judicial consent, hence my asking about courts.
She’s not necessarily from Indiana. In plenty of states you can get married at 16 with parental “consent.”
In my state all it takes to get married under 18 is parental consent. It’s almost universally strict religious people who do it. Like Leslie’s family.
She may not be from Indiana. If she’s an adjunct, assistant, or even associate professor–which is likely, given that she’s under the age of 45 and she’s teaching an entry-level class–she’ll probably have gone to whatever university would hire her and/or pay her enough to live on.
Age of consent for marriage in Indiana according to family.findlaw.com is 16 and is the same in most (but not all) states, although marriage at a younger age is permitted *without* a court decision if the parents consent. If she had her parents’ support, which it sounds like she did, she wouldn’t have had to be or claim that she was pregnant.
Willis said everyone was from Indiana unless stated otherwise, though I guess he could’ve just meant the kids.
Age of marriage with family consent is 17 according to statelaws.findlaw.com, so I guess my first source was fucked. My bad!
http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2016/ic/titles/031/articles/011/
The Indiana General Assembly also seems to support you’d need a court petition, but I will admit I only skimmed it and so it’s entirely possible I read it wrong. My apologies if I have!
Court docs ain’t hard to get from your local County officials if you live in a smallish churchy kind of place. Or have a lot of money.
That’s true!
That’s before you account for cases that slip through the cracks without all appropriate due process. Note, for example, that the records of such a filing are to be held in confidentiality and require a court order to be examined.
Family consent, family pressure, same diff. I’m going to guess young Leslie was offered a stark choice of marrying a man and getting “right” or getting sent off to be made “right”.
I’d gotten the impression it was more internal pressure (probably derived from upbringing, of course.)
“I can’t be this thing that I’ve been taught is horrible. I’ll prove it by marrying a guy right away.”
My older brother got married at 15 or 16. He was in love with this girl than was a few years older than them. His mother signed, but dad refused saying he was too young and the girl was on drugs. Dad isn’t sure how he got married without his consent. She got him hooked on drugs, his grades dive bombed, he became a different person (violent, short tempered, con, mooch, cruel, no common sense, short sighted, destructive…), and his life went to hell. They got divorced when he was 17 or so. The damage had been done. He’s been on and off drugs since. He’s in his late 40s and a manipulative violent asshole even without drugs. When he’s on them he’s very dangerous to himself and others. He’s also very abusive nearly killing his second wife (a wonderful woman I have no clue how he sweet talked into marrying him) and beating the crap out of his 2 kids. When she got the strength to leave we kept her and thew him away. He got married again and got in a fist fight with a bunch of strangers over nonsense leaving his pregnant wife curled in a ball hiding in the truck (they were headed to church and he was driving and pulled over taking the keys with him). He came back with his white shirt stained red and the crap beat out of him. She miscarried soon after and divorced him before their 1st anniversary. His last gal he wouldn’t marry so he couldn’t be found for child support. She was ex military but that didn’t stop him from getting abusive, controlling, and threatening. He took her truck and bolted telling her that she was gonna keep paying for it and she would regret it if she fucked with him. He kept it until the tags expired and then some and it was repossessed because he was driving without tags and insurance.
We tried to help him. Dad paid for rehab several times. He bought him stuff. Would help him get a place. It never worked out. It got really bad and dad starting worrying about my safety and the safety of his grandkids, so he cut him out of his life. The last chance we gave him was 2 years ago when he swore he was clean, working, and going to try to pay child support and that all he wanted was a relationship with us. It didn’t end well.
I’m so sorry to hear that! Hugs if you want them.
I didn’t mean to make people feel bad! I just wanted to say that getting married really young can mess your life up in the long haul . There are some who got married as minors and did great, but honestly most teens are nowhere near ready to adult.
Honestly, I could write a book about my life and people would think it had to be fiction or that I fudged the details. Like just yesterday I learned the lawyer I paid for an order of separation and protection against my ex took the money and never filed. He told me it went through and he was just waiting for my ex to be served. My ex hasn’t be harassing me for 2 months so I never knew he had conned me. Plus, him charging me for a protection order is illegal. I found all this out when I happen to be at the police station to get a background check for my new apartment and wanted to make sure my ex had been served. So now I have to sue the lawyer, but I have to get in line behind over 100 other former clients who are also suing him. I went to him because he took the office over that use to belong to my lawyer (he passed away a few years ago). This is only one thing that has happened in the last few weeks (emergency root canal, dog had to get a tooth fixed, a trespasser in the woods killing our deer while wearing no orange, dad’s truck randomly broke down and had to be replaced, stomach virus, panic attack, dad’s dog is having seizures, …) I have an odd life.
In all earnestness, you SHOULD write a book. Or, do yoinhave a blog? Lemons and lemonade, you know.
I’ve never thought about either seriously although I do suppose I am long winded enough to fill plenty of space 😉
*hugs offered*
*hugs accepted*
Not an expert on US law, so I might misunderstand how this works… If so many people are suing him, can’t you do a class action?
I have no idea. I don’t know how class action works either :\
That is very true about young marriage.
YIKES! Definitely sounds like you’re being kept busy! I’m sorry, that sounds rough.
Welcome to my crazy life ;P
There’s nothing saying that she wasn’t pregnant. She said she thought “the deed” would fix her, which sounds like she thought she could cure herself of being a lesbian by having sex. Getting pregnant is a common consequence of sex. Why does she say nothing about a child? Well, miscarriages are not uncommon in young women either.
I believe the implication is supposed to be she got married so she could have sex, but that is also a possibility.
Also might’ve given the child up, or aborted it somehow.
Or it just didn’t take in the first place?
My money is now on a story down the line where her child shows up again at Uni…
Hmmm…
Did we ever learn if Mary’s parents are her biological ones?
She’s in her late twenties so mathematically if she has a child and they show up at uni, it would probably be with the father in tow. if Leslie’s hypothetical child were to enroll at IU, they wouldn’t turn up without a flash forward until like 2386 rl time. 😛
She wouldn’t have been pregnant before marrying, and I seem to remember that they didn’t even consume the marriage at least for a while, but I don’t know where I get it from.
You might be crossing wires and thinking of Shortpacked!
Oh man, Robin’s having a rough night…
Because she’s faced with the people that she’s caused to have rough lives? Good.
It’s the kind of rough night that all elected officials should be required to have, at least once a week, as a part of the job.
Yup, until they stop viewing this politics shit as a fucking game.
It’s not a game. It’s serious. It’s about money and power.
For them, of course. No one cares about the marks.
Nah, no “until” just at least once a week. Part of the job. Always have someone else ready to take all you think you know about what’s best for other people and rake that muck so you have to smell your own bad thinking.
In principle, yes.
In practice, there’d be no way to pull that off without someone corrupting the process somehow. I can just see the Family Research Council (as just one example) stacking up their people to be the ones that the politicians have this kind of hard talk with.
You know what? Let them. Let any group be on the list to get in on the weekly lunch and/or dinner with the elected official. And, let it be policed to make sure that there’s a diversity of lives and opinions.
And, yes, let FRC get their people in, if only so that someone who gets an up-close and personal experience with the fact that the people FRC hates are, in fact, people can also get the up-close and personal experience with the rhetoric used against them, to be able to handle it when it comes up in legislation, and it freaking will.
Well…shit. If that doesn’t shake up Robin’s worldview nothing will.
So this is the moment. Punchline aside, Robin’s reaction to this sets the tone for her as a character.
From her expression, it doesn’t seem like Robin likes the idea of sad, homeless Leslie at all. I strongly agree with this sentiment.
I accidentally replied when I meant to comment. It kinda still works?
If Robin changes her policies because of this and then loses the election, she’ll have more reason to hang around the university.
Robin could change her mind, but then she’ll be required to pretend she hasn’t (to her constituents), which will hurt all the feelings.
That’s functionally no better than not changing her mind, and possibly even worse because it’s morally bankrupt AND spineless.
She might, probably even rightly so, feel it is too late to make such radical changes to her policies. I think she would be better off, if she does indeed decide to change her policies, withdrawing from the running altogether, and starting again anew next time. Probably in connection with a different party.
Well, radical party switch has been done before, but based on Robin’s categorization of the district, I doubt that she’d win her re-election campaign. Or worse, would only be able to do that by doubling down harder on policies of racism and sexism to “make up” for not hating enough on the queers.
“Do Lesbians have a radar for other lesbians? As that might explain the weird sensation I’ve had since the moment I set eyes on you…”
“Are you still trying to flirt with me even after what I just told you?!”
“No, that was a serious question. The weird sensation is scaring me.”
I know Leslie is fictional but I also know from this comment board and others that her situation is anything but. All I can say is: I’m so sorry if you ever found yourself in a similar situation, I hope you’re in a better place now (both mentally and physically). You deserve so much better than lies and shunning by people who say they’re of a faith based on compassion
can someone give me the rundown of Leo in the Walkyverse? where was he on a scald of Joyce to John?
If Joyce were unable to learn a single thing from her insensitive remarks and eventually stop making them, that would be Leo.
Closer to Joyce, though beginning-of-DoA Joyce. He means well, but I wouldn’t bet on him evolving the way Joyce has, because he’s kind of gormless and doesn’t have Joyce’s empathy.
Well… Keep in mind, we didn’t see that much of him. What we did see was a guy without a mean bone in his body – even while holding terrible opinions, he was still trying to be supportive toward Leslie.
He seems to mean well, but he’s unintentionally a bit of a dick (thinks Christians are the most oppressed group, does the whole ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ bullshit with LGBT+ folks, etc.) Think early Joyce.
As nice as Joyce, kind, well meaning, but even when he (kinda) started to try he never could let go of his homophobia. Wasn’t mean about it, treated it sort-of like depression or some other unfortunate mental illness but the fact that he never really accepted Leslie definitely hurt her (since even after their divorce she liked him and she had always thought of him as a friend.)
Nice enough but still very much a bigot and to set in his ways to really change.
“Of all the gin joints in the world, why did you have to walk into mine?”
“Bartender, two whiskies and leave the bottle.”
“So, other than that, Leslie, do you wanna get a room?”
“You know, when I talked about my former lack of housing just now, I did NOT mean I want to get a room tonight.”
Oh. Man. FUCK. This was just a gut-punch. *gives Leslie all the hugs*
I am so happy that she is now happy and healthy and has a career she loves and is in a position to help kids who are struggling like she used to. OH MAN. And she knows not everyone gets to be in the position she is in today. I love her so much and I have so much respect for her. She’s taking this opportunity to tell Robin exactly how it is. Go, Leslie.
And if this doesn’t have *any* impact on Robin, then I guess we’ve gotta accept that Robin is lost to the dark side for good in this universe. I am an optimist, but I honestly don’t know about how this will turn out. *bites nails*
Great strip today. Just really fucking great. A+++
When you booze, you lose.
But you win if it’s gin
It’s a bit risky with whisky, and rum’s just dumb, but hey; don’t let some guy drunk on a lotta vodka stop ya.
I really respect that Leslie was willing to do this. She didn’t have to, and for all she knew it would do nothing or cause Robin to double down and endanger herself and/or other LGBT people even further. That she did it anyway, on the hope that someone with little reason to even acknowledge her would actually LISTEN… That’s not easy, and all too often opposing views fall on deaf ears out of habit if nothing else.
Out of DOA-verse, respect to Willis for making this backstory reveal (granted, one that was already foreshadowed, but whatever) seem so organic. It doesn’t come across like someone yelling “THIS IS MY TRAGIC PAST!” apropos of nothing, but like a genuine conversation. That’s not an easy narrative feat.
Yeah, spilling out the tragic past isn’t easy, but Leslie hopes that by doing so here, she can do some good. Hopefully she is right and she’s not going to get a massive amount of shit designed to hit her weak points instead. Especially because in sharing her backstory she’s implicitly calling out Robin’s legislative history in a real way and people can react pretty bad to that.
As an elected member of the United States Congress, doesn’t Robin have access to better/more fun drugs than just boozeahol?
Cuz if not, I’m cancelling my 2018 bid right the hell now.
Power is a helluva drug.
Hard to share at parties, though.
Yeah, the parties don’t like sharing it.
She does, but she’s slumming it up right now.
Hey, a fine liquor is better than anything you can snort, smoke or inject in your veins! It’s all about *class*.
…. uh, can’t you, like, inject vaccines into your veins?
😀
ROBIN: “…Shoulda been liquor. And I know just the kind. Aide!”
AIDE: “Yes, Congresswoman?”
ROBIN: “Take the car and go buy us two bottles of King Cobra, stat!”
AIDE: “King Cobra?! Where am I supposed to find that?”
ROBIN: (sighing) “We’ve been over this. West Street Liquors! You know, that place where you can buy loose cigarettes? That one.”
AIDE: “You do realize you can just buy liquor right here, don’t you? “
That ain’t liquor; that’s just higher-than-usual alcohol-content beer.
All I can think of when I hear King Cobra is that movie about gay porn with James Franco.
…. not what you meant, I assume? lol
Isn’t he just “you” now?
*sending hugs through my computer to 17-year-old Leslie and everyone else out there in her position*
I’ve been wondering lately if Robin has any agenda at all beyond “being a congressperson.”
I mean, Shortpacked!Robin didn’t really give a damn about her office until she found things to fight for. Dumbing!Robin’s sole political motivation of which we are aware is “get re-elected.” What did she want in for in the first place?
What do real-world Representatives want? They’re basically elected to spend 2 years campaigning to get re-elected.
I propose introducing a “do your fucking job” law that restricts campaigning to a maximum of 6 months. Because if you can’t accurately portray your position in 6 months, you don’t deserve the job.
Runs afoul of our interpretation of the first amendment. Campaigning is free speech and that can’t possibly be restricted. (Except for all the ways we do actually restrict it, but those are all different. Somehow.)
My theory was to ban incumbency – you can’t run for the job while serving. Everyone is replaced after every term. You could of course run again next term, so not a normal term limits proposal.
You’re a mad genius. #thejeff2020
Problem is, a whole lot of what makes a representative beholden to the public is the fear of being kicked out of office. If that’s going to happen anyways, you might wind up with people doing a lot more things that no one would like.
I do really think they could actually set up a law that limited campaigning while the legislature was in session, though. One that wouldn’t violate the constitution–it would be like workplace rules.
Problem is, the people who would make such laws (or even your “no incumbancy” law) have no incentive to restrict their own actions. People who seek power want to remain in power.
Well, they’d be thinking about the next cycle, so that would still be a factor. And incumbency is already a huge bonus to keeping you from being kicked out.
They could possibly limit their own campaigning, but per Citizen’s United, they couldn’t limit outside, “uncoordinated” third parties from doing so on their behalf. So basically they’d just outsource their reelection campaigns to dark money groups.
Bigger issue with this, and I’d recommend looking up the work of Lee Drutman, is that term limits have been found to actually make most of the problems worse. Thing with term limits is that more often than not what you get is mostly newbies with little policy expertise or experience in government. But lobbyists and interest groups have plenty of those things to offer, so term limits just lead legislators to become very dependent on interest groups to do their job and create policy.
For those who aren’t familiar with him, Leo is introduced here: http://www.shortpacked.com/index.php?id=2125
I’d say the comparison to early Joyce is apt. Joyce has become an ally to LGBT rights due to character development but she previously would have taken the same stance as Leo.
Panel 4: “I am a lesbian.” [Robin: This is relevant to my interests]
Rest of strip: “Sweet lesbian facts”. [Robin: THIS IS NOT HOW I HOPED THIS CONVERSATION WOULD GO]
I really hope hearing this from Leslie makes Robin think about the consequences of her terrible politics. If that doesn’t change her views, I don’t know what will.
Leslie just gives me the feels.
The last three comics have all ended with Robin reaction faces, and put together they make a very concise summary of how this is going. I hope it keeps up and becomes its own megapost!
“Wait, there areconsequences to what I say and do?!”
– Robin
Is it just me or does Leslie’s nose in panel 6 look really weird?
I really want to see the story of how Leslie went from homeless, starving lesbian to teacher at a university.
It all started with a really bad hair cut.
+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1
…heck it, PLUS ALL!!!!
You can bet she is an adjunct professor, saddled with loan debt and making about as much as she would make serving fast food.
Yup. It’s still probably the most money she has seen in her life since having to leave home (if we assume that her parents are rich in this universe too).
There are some things you just can’t process without a proper buffer of alcohol…
Good first reaction, Robin. Basically a buffer for whatever your natural first reaction is, giving thinking about how to react the time it deserves.
Now, let’s see what you come up with by the next comic :>
Oh, and not just a buffer, but acknowledging the seriousness of the situation.
Seriously, Robin’s getting points here. Granted, that’s over a VERY low plank, but still.
I’ve posted this before but I suspect that this is the first time that Robin has actually encountered a real person who has been negatively affected by the policies that she supports, as opposed to abstract and easily-dismissed ‘others’.
Certainly the first one she actually respects and couldn’t just dismiss as “a crazy liberal child” like she did to Leslie’s students.
So it’ll be really interesting to see how Robin responds to that, because there’s gotta be empathy getting hit hard here, but the natural response of a lot of people who get called out on their moral bankruptcy is to try and double down on it and defend it harder.
Is ‘getting too drunk to think about it’ classified as ‘doubling down’ or ‘evading’? I ask because that looks like what Robin is planning to do!
I think she’s also at least hoping to get Leslie drunk to help her drown her sorrows. So, while not the best solution, she at least is going the right direction–trying to make others hurt less.
Something her real life analog would never do.
Through HS, all I’d ever seen of “the gays” was sensationalist 30-second network news bits about pride parades full of caricatures (assless-chaps bikers, huge hairy dudes in bad drag, you know…) and that one creepy guy in town. If you need a timeframe, I graduated in 1992.
Going to university and meeting real people of all sorts who just happened to be homosexual/bisexual is what changed my mental picture. It didn’t happen overnight, but somehow, when the people are right there in front of you and you can see their feelings and their struggles, it makes it harder to buy the caricatures. Then the research started coming out showing that this wasn’t the “lifestyle choice” that it had been painted as, and I had to say to myself “all evidence contradicts what I had previously been told was true, therefore I must change my conclusion on this matter.”
Plus, my libertarian views started to come to the fore in college, and I decided on issues like gay marriage, “Whatever my gut reaction to these things that I’m still working through, it’s really none of my business who someone else marries, as long as they’re both consenting adult persons.”
I know a few people who married under the age of 18. None of them for happy reasons:
* 2 were brainwashed into accepting it as normal due to families who believe like Joyce but also think that “education gives the Devil a chance to corrupt the weaker sex.”
* 1 who married to escape an abusive household in the 70s, back when a teenage girl living alone would be assumed to be a prostitute.
* 2 who married because they were really fucking horny but also sincerely believed in asbstinence until marriage at the time
* 1 who married for Leslie’s reason – to try to fix her gay
* and 1 who married to hide his gay
… none of them had good experiences with it. I think it’s disgusting that in a First World nation, Canada still allows child marriage to as young as 16. Until recently (by “recently” I mean “two years ago”), it was technically legal as young as 7. I disagree with the Conservatives reasoning for the change – theirs was xenophobia rather than just recognizing that times have changed since the 1800s and it’s in the best interest of kids to stay in school – but the only way I disagree with the law is that I don’t think it’s restrictive enough.
Ugh, right? It’s like “Okay, good that the law passed but for the wrong reason gdi.”
I guess the logic for it being 16 is that if you’re old enough to fuck, if your parents are okay with it you should be theoretically old enough to wed? Which is so so messed up I can’t even unpack it all right now, jfc.
I actually do know a couple who married that young and appear perfectly happy, but they’re Amish.
There are exceptions to almost any general statement (including this one) but on average teenage marriage is a bad idea for the same reasons expecting teenagers to make any other binding long term decision is a bad idea.
The average age of puberty, especially for girls, has gotten younger over the many years, likely due both to nutritional and environmental factors.
Over the same span, the socially acceptable age of marriage has gone up, due to a host of cultural factors (most of them good). There’s more to learn and fewer low-skill/low-knowledge jobs, so education takes longer. Recognition of women as full human beings with all the rights that entails. Etc.
This is part of why the modern concept of the “teenager” — not a child AND not an adult — has come into being.
As a result, there’s a much wider gap in time between “becomes a sexual being” and “is socially allowed to express that part of their being” than there was 100+ years ago.
Wasn’t more than a few generations ago that marriage at 13-14 was common and accepted.
Nope. The overwhelming majority of women back then married in their late teens to their early to mid 20s, same as now. We can prove this via church records. The girls who married that young were usually nobles or higher ups trying to marry advantageously and that was more ‘lock down this advantageous marriage NOW and secure it with a baby ASAP’ than it was any kind of ‘this is a person who is socially, emotionally, mentally, psychologically, and physically mature enough for marriage’.
Also, most of the evidence we’ve seen from the average person in those days shows a mix of shock and revulsion towards nobles marrying off their children that young. It was very much a class thing.
The idea that most girls married young comes from the Victorian era mangling historical facts to justify their own view of how the world works, more than any factual basis in what happened.
This is going to make when Robin drops Leslie in the kacky at the advice of her advisors all the more painful.
ok. my heart is breaking for Leslie over here. she was a baby lesbian right after the AIDS crisis, so that really was a hugely homophobic time. i wish i could give Leslie hugs.
Was Robin always so insensitive?
The person who called Leslie “my lesbian” for years before ever using her name?
Yeah, pretty much. Her heart’s basically in the right place, but she doesn’t really pay much attention to other people.
I’m just going to say it: I do not see these two getting together over the course of this comic, at least not in the foreseeable future. To go from the position these two are in right now to any point at which it would make sense for them to be together would take time, in-universe. And maybe more time than we’re going to get.
I can see that. I mean, least we forget, it took Leslie and Robin in Shortpacked! the better part of at least 4 years and two election cycles to really click as a couple.
I love Dumbing of Age, but this and the previous strip might be my least favorite strips in the entire archive. Leslie is here dropping truth bombs on a powerful subject (albeit one he’s trod very, very well and is continuing to tread with Becky, so this is a little redundant), and in both strips any power and tension generated by this moment is obliterated by Robin mugging at the camera with a “it’s a living! Womp womp” moment.
Robin is a living Looney Tunes character that barely worked in Shortpacked!, a gag-a-day strip. In the (relatively) realistic world of Dumbing of Age, she is cancer incarnate. She sucks the potential out of any strip she appears in, and she would do so whether or not she was a Republican congresswoman. It doesn’t help that Becky is basically her and fills her role, but superior in every way, shape and form. Becky was raised by Christian nuts, so she’s allowed to be this socially awkward happy doofus. Robin is a grown-ass woman and an elected official, and while I realize her position is a commentary on “politics is a job for dopes/government is run by idiots”, her being “THE Republican” of the story and being a dim, but ultimately well-meaning huckster is, considering the pedigree this comic has, a particularly toothless jab.
Moreover, considering the current political climate and taking into account I know that Willis is keenly aware of just what evil the modern GOP is up to, it’s incredibly odd to see his stand in for “current, conservative government” be this loveable goofball that could essentially end every one of her sentences with a fucking slide whistle. I’m aware this strip’s whole thing is “plug characters from earlier comics into new roles!” but some people straight up don’t fit, and Robin is number one on that list. Willis needs to start using her to make some very pointed commentary about the current GOP (i.e. making her about ten thousand percent more sinister), or at the very least make her something more than “Becky, Mk. II”. Failing that, quietly have her dissolve into the background after this arc is done and never mention her again.
By the way, the whole “not fitting” thing goes double for Galasso and Lucy. They were hilarious and actually made sense in Shortpacked!, but they stick out like a huge unfunny thumb in DoA, and any time they show up anyone who hasn’t read SP! has this huge, flow breaking “wtf!?” moment. But I digress.
I think we’re going to have to disagree here. DoA has always been a mix of comedy and drama. Some characters only fit one tone super well, and some manage both. Robin fits comedy better because due to parental neglect she works too hard at being wacky, zany, and generally eccentric because she wants attention.
If this is about ‘breaking up tension’ – what you said exactly but without being sarcastic? That’s intentional. Tension is good, but not at the expense of becoming soul suckingly dreary. It also has to do with what characters would say or do in a given position – “I need a freaking drink to process the bombs being dropped on my world view” isn’t very dramatic, but it is a common enough response and it’s one Robin would have.
Robin is not ‘THE Republican’. A fair chunk of the case was raised by Republican houses – Joyce, Agatha, Mary, Amber, Danny, Ethan, Becky, etc. Whether those match their views in the face of further life experience may have changed, but that’s where their starting point was. Robin is not your only representation here. Also, the point isn’t ‘lol, Republicans are so zany and lovable even while doing horrible things’ it’s ‘hey, Robin’s doing these horrible things, will that stand up when people continue telling her that they’re horrible?’ It’s not about ‘this is what the Republicans are – fun and zany’ so much as ‘Does Robin – who is funny and zany – fit with these horrible things her party is doing’?
These strips were written months ago, over the summer. I’m sure we’ll be hearing plenty more about how Republicans behave generally (probably not specifics because that would date the comic) but months-ago Willis had no way of knowing what would be going on right now.
Galasso resides squarely in the comedic portion of the comic, which is still a valid half of the story. It is still part of the plot. It doesn’t have to be your favourite part of the plot and its perfectly okay to wish Willis would focus on other parts you do like, but it is still a legitimate part of the story.
I’m curious what part of the story you don’t think Lucy fits. I guarantee that IU has some shipper fixated fandom nerds in there somewhere, and as it stands she showed up twice – once to say hi to Marcie and have her and Malaya make fun of her and then when she interrupts Marcie trying to cuddle up to Malaya and get told off for it – the joke being ‘lol, Marcie got clit blocked’ and the more ‘dramatic’ plot point being to further her having problems connecting romantically with Malaya, setting up Marcie being worried about whether Malaya is into girls at all. It’s not like she’s popped up out of nowhere to randomly insert fandom stuff on the regular. She’s at best, a tertiary supporting character to a secondary main character (Marcie), so it doesn’t really matter.
First off, I got the name of the character wrong: when I said Lucy, I meant the lady who’s Galasso’s yelling subordinate that gets fired from the pizza place. My bad.
I also thought about the buffer thing. The first thing I thought was “I wonder if Willis would have wrote this AFTER Trump got elected”. My hope is that we’ll see Republicans taken to task the same way Christians were with Toedad. My point was you can’t do that with Robin as your “Republican establishment” stand-in. And that’s her role: No one else in the cast, from what I can remember, has specific ties to a specific party. Anyone else who could be labeled “Republican” is religious before they are political so far (Joyce’s parents, Toedad, etc).
As for the whole Robin fitting in thing: She doesn’t. She never has. Every time Robin’s shown up in this strip, it’s like she’s doing her best ad-libbing a part that wasn’t written for her. Robin is very clearly an antagonist, of a group that, even before the election, was clearly in “the bad guys” territory, and Willis has never shied from showing bad guys be bad guys (Amber’s dad, etc). This series of strips COULD be “voice of embattled LGBT minority group” having a heart to heart with “Republican voter base”, and it could be poignant. Instead, because it’s Robin, it’s now “Voice of embattled LGBT minority group has a heart to heart with Robin (played as always by Yakko Warner) pretending to be a Republican”.
If it’s Willis’ intent to separate Robin from her party with this arc, i.e. “Robin is hearing these bad things and has a crisis of faith”, and intends the story therefore to be more about Robin’s character than a commentary on Republicans, I think that’s unbelievably silly and an even more glaring case of “Robin didn’t really fit in this role but there was no other place for this Walkyverse character in my story, soooo…”. An incredibly young congresswoman who gets to her seat based entirely on “i ‘unno” and telling people what they want to hear without a second’s though as to what she’s actually doing is a 12 year old’s political cartoon come to life, it’s not how anyone actually operates in the real world, and that’s where DoA gets its strength. DoA characters feel like real people and work best as such.
I’ve known people in my life who act like most people in the DoA cast, they’re incredibly relatable and human, save for Robin. Nobody acts like Robin after they’ve gotten out of college, and if they do, they’re never in charge of anything important (This argument also applies to Galasso. He’s not even remotely a real person, so he sticks out like five sore thumbs).
Again, I’m willing to chalk it up to the whole buffer thing, but whether or not it was his intent, he’s going incredibly soft on Republicans here. Republicans who are out of college and have spent time in the real world are not “good people who are ignorant/misinformed”. They’re people who have forgotten what empathy is and who want to be part of the winning conquerors no matter what. They have destroyed facts and political discourse. They are dangerous and terrifying, and that goes triple for anyone actually willing to campaign under that banner. DoA could throw some pretty epic spice at that group, but not with Robin as their avatar.
I hope this arc is about Robin coming to her senses, leaving her office, and living happily forever after with Leslie. That way, she can appear even less than Leslie does and ruin the minimal amount of strips with her cartoon mugging.
Ahhh, Sydney!
I think we’re going to have to disagree on what Robin’s point is and whether or not its a good thing – the way I see it, Robin is a character who very much craves both attention and affection but does not see herself as appealing, so she amps up the zaniness to 11 to keep things up, up, up all the time – no room for angst, nuance, trauma, everything is fine, keep moving, nooooo don’t introspect or ask me to introspect, I am fine, keep it moving, oh hey I’m just going to ‘comically’ miss your piercing question’s point, ahahaha, laugh, come on, it’s funny, I’m so funny, love me already’ – sort of like Becky if she were at Defcon 1 all the time, but Robin’s not hiding herself because she wants to pretend everything lousy is okay so people don’t worry. She does it because she wants them to like her. I known of plenty of people who’ve needed attention and affection who take things to 11 because they can’t stand anything serious to happen – because they perceive that as ‘something bad’ and any sources of pain or friction are to be avoided at all costs. So, for me, Robin’s always felt like she could be a real person – even if I’d never met people like that, it seems plausible enough to me that Robin doesn’t feel jarringly unrealistic.
Willis has already said her being a congressperson was meant to be a throwback to Walkyverse where she was one – it seemed like it was originally a ‘why not’ kind of idea, as he said he wanted her to be older than the kids and since he’d decided Leslie would be a teacher, it’d fit better for more Walkyverse callbacks, this time ship wise. Seemed at the time like it was originally intended to fit square in the middle of the comedy side.
Fair enough about Galasso and Sydney, though their lack of realism doesn’t really bother me since they A) Likewise, barely appear, B) Aren’t ENTIRELY impossible (overly dramatic, overly controlling, ambitious, and eccentric business owners/college students exist, so it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility – kind of like half of AG’s stunts. Unlikely in the extreme, but not theoretically impossible) and C) Again, they’re pretty much confined to the comedic side thus far, which has always been a bit more cartoony and Shortpacked!-esque.
Robin could have fit in other places – She’s Roz’s sister, he could have easily just had her living in the city or coming by to surprise Roz after the sex tape scandal and meet Leslie that way. He could have made her a student and stuck her in the main cast instead of or in addition to Roz. She could have been another teacher or a sports coach. He chose to make her a congressperson as a nod to the fans who came from the Walkyverse. Acting like this was the only way she’d fit in the cast is not true. It’s one thing to think she doesn’t fit the role she has, but it’s disingenuous to pretend she’d have no role at all in DoA otherwise.
Change is one of the principle themes of the comic. Everyone grows and changes as parts of their worldview change or fall away. I don’t think continuing that theme with Robin and getting in some pointed political commentary will necessarily be mutually exclusive. She’s definitely going to need to come up against her party at some point and decide whether she can really keep supporting it – that’s a scenario rife with potential commentary. Robin was always going to be Robin, she was never meant to be different just to portray a Republican.
…You’ve never seen a person who acts like Robin post-college? I’ve known of a few – again, folks who need everything to be up, up, up and keep any and all introspection, consequences, and seriousness of any kind to a minimum. And people of all stripes end up being in charge of things – and some of them are laughably incompetent. We’ve all had people who were in a professional scenario where we end up going ‘why the fuck are you here’ and sometimes even ‘holy shit how do you remember to breathe?’
A) People most definitely do get elected telling people what they want to hear. Plenty of elections through history can demonstrate that. B) Robin’s actual campaigning seems heavily heavily coached by her staff, and what they’ve written seems more politically plausible than what Robin would say on her own. If she looks good campaigning, there is a shot. C) There are plenty of people who vote based on party alone. They’ll vote for whoever the Republicans run. D) She’s a Representative, in Congressional elections. Very few people research them and they tend to have low turn out. The demographics that do turn out for those tend to be ones that swing more conservative, so it would be rather easy for Robin to end up in her seat. As for Galasso, he began his own business. You can say his personality is unrealistic, but saying he would never be in charge of anything when he began his business venture himself is silly.
There are a LOT of Republicans who change their minds long after college. Plenty of them are simply utter bastards, yes, but there are also plenty of people who do not get it. Either because they’ve been sheltered beyond all belief, have never seen information about how bad problems like homophobia get, or any other reasons. Yes, many of them are exactly as you describe them, but there are plenty who aren’t – some of them are even on this board, I’m sure. Some people have their revelation in college. Some have it earlier. Some have it way later. Acting like someone can’t possibly have their ‘shit, I’m an asshole who has been fucking up this entire time’ revelation later is simply untrue.
This storyline (Robin and Leslie) has just begun picking up. I’m sure as it continues, it will get you the spice you want. Maybe not flung at Robin, depending how much she changes, but definitely as it goes on and probably at people far worse than Robin.
Your opinion is more than fair and I completely respect it. This is just mine and I’m just trying to explain it the best way I can.
I suspect “Lucy” may have been a slip for “Sydney”. Fits better with Galasso.
Damn it. I swear that post wasn’t there when I posted. 🙂
These past two strips would definitely have been stronger without the apparently mandatory last panel punchlines. Like yeah, DoA is meant to walk the line between comedy and drama but sometimes it stumbles and I feel like this is one of those times.
That’s more than fair! I can respect that.
You’ll need something stronger than that, Robin
Maybe a change of mind in your attitude towards your political career
Radically changing one’s political views is a hell of a drug.
Comic Reactions:
This one… hits. So I’m gonna ramble a bit on this one, I’m afraid.
Panel 1: “Welp, problem solved and I didn’t even have to question my convictions in a meaningful way. I’m sure the rest of this conversation will go swimmingly and… (if we happen to wake up in each other’s bed with less clothes on, then whoopsy-daisy, dearie-me, amirite?)”
Panels 2-3: I ramble a lot about myself. I know this. But, part of that is because if my story can help others. Can let people know about what people like me face or make a person who’s going through the same thing feel a bit less alone, then it feels worth it to take that risk and share it.
And well… that’s not always a neutral action. I’ve had people. Dangerous people try and hurt me because of what I’ve freely shared and I’ve had some coming outs that went disastrously wrong. Hell, I’ve shared the horrifying aftermath of some of them. I’ve had what I’ve shared used to abuse me, to discredit me, to try and gaslight me about my identity.
But it still feels important to not just hide away and pretend it’s all fine and present a happy fiction to the world. And I’ve felt like I’ve done good at times in sharing my experiences and using them to connect with folks. As scary as it has been at times.
But I can’t even imagine what it must be like for Leslie here. To do that with someone who’s behind hostile laws against people like you, who may very well use your story in terrifying and horrifying ways or worse yet shrug it off like nothing important… That takes some guts of iron and steel. So for her to barrel through anyways?
It’s impressive and powerful.
Is she saying she wishes she was too drunk for that to bother her or that she wish Leslie was more so they would be making out instead of talking about this? cause both are shitty
Liquor? I barely know her!
Panels 4-5: Oof. This hits home hard. Cause, I’ve mentioned it before, but I very nearly ended up homeless like Becky and Leslie for very similar reasons involving my folks wanting me “fixed” and refusing to love the girl I was rather than the boy they wanted me to continue to pretend to be.
And I had to live in poverty for awhile right on the cusp of homelessness, going back into the closet just to survive, because the only other choice was “getting fixed”. And I spent a time when I just suspected I was trans, trying to still pretend I was a boy hoping that would mean the terrible “sweet lesbian facts” wouldn’t come for me. And they all fucking did, right down to long-term relationships being treated like meaningless short-term flings.
And well… I’m trans. Our homeless numbers are off the charts and so I know a lot of folks personally who are homeless or in dangerous living situations because they are trying to avoid becoming homeless. A far few who’ve had to turn to sex work and I do mean had to turn to sex work to survive rather than just choosing it fully willingly though I’ve known a few who’ve done that as well.
I’ve chipped in a few bucks where I can for friends literally freezing or starving where they are and now that I have a little cushion, I try always to leave something for those who have to beg to survive. Not even out of as much morality as I wish I could claim but simply because I can’t not. Not while knowing how thin the bridge between them and I was.
And yeah, plenty of my friends have horror stories of shelters, religious charities, and domestic violence centers being incredibly bigoted and hostile to them when they were in need. Watching still others, both distant friends and kids I’ve mentored, not make it, turning to suicide or just succumbing to a bad winter. And too many to count get dangerously close to that edge.
After a while, it numbs you quite a bit. And I, like Leslie, crawled out as best I could. Got a job teaching and have tried to protect my kids as best I can from all the shit me and mine had to go through, though I haven’t been able to do nearly as much as I’d like or wish I could and that haunts me.
And if Leslie is anything like me, then that period homeless (or nearly homeless in my case), of receiving abuse from family that swore to love you no matter what, that still feels like yesterday. Still feels a moment away in time, threatening to swallow you up if you ever trip.
So yeah, I identify with Leslie here. And it makes me cry.
Panel 6: This! This is the bit that so many politicians and those voting have forgotten. Politics isn’t a game, where sports team A beats sports team B and outside of meaningless points on a scoreboard, it doesn’t actually matter that much in terms of life and death.
Politics directly determines if some people live or some people die. When I was going through hell, I attempted suicide… a lot. And I self-injured even more than that. If it wasn’t for Obamacare, I don’t think I would have made it, because Obamacare let me get some real doctors for the first time in this country since childhood and let me move forward with my transition in ways that felt real rather than just marking time and waiting for Godot.
In this election, my fiancee is in genuine fear that there’ll be camps and I can’t honestly say that they are wrong in that fear. I’ve had to make contingency plans in case I need to make a rapid escape from this country.
Because this shit is life or death. And when the stakes are such, not everyone lives. Had an old mentee kill herself on Election Night. Because she was that scared of Trump and what that meant for her chances of survival. And the call-ins to the suicide hotlines, especially the queer ones have redlined in volume.
And so we need to end this worldview of “winning and losing” and instead really hammer home to all the priviledged assholes treating this like an opportunity to “stick it” to their perceived enemies that their little fascist temper-tantrums are literally killing real people. Not monsters. Not figments of the imagination. But real people with real dreams and hopes for a future they will never see.
That this shit genuinely matters. That ignoring a rape survivor or passing a bathroom law or letting a hate speaker come to your campus just means that one less fewer person wakes up tomorrow than otherwise would have.
Cause as Leslie notes, we’re fucking dying out here and begging for people to finally come and give a damn.
I know this is 3 days later and nobody will read this, but anyway…
I am sorry that you and your friends had to go through those terrible things. I’m glad that you are in a good enough place to speak about others’ troubles rather than just struggling to survive yourself.
And as you go on to say, sometimes a personal connection opens people’s eyes. Heck, even Darth Cheney himself was all “Nope, I’m out” when the Republicans embarked on BanGayMarriagePalooza ’04. (Aside: how sad is it that Dick Cheney seems much more sympathetic, reasonable, and dare I say presidential, than our actual president-elect!?)
Regarding “letting a hate speaker come to your campus” — sometimes people’s hands are tied, unfortunately. We recently had the misfortune of having our campus invaded by Mr. Alt-Right himself (he was most definitely NOT invited by us, as our university president made clear), but as we are a public university and the room he used was available for rent by the public, we’d be inviting a 1st amendment lawsuit (which we’d likely lose) by preventing his appearance. So instead we held a festival celebrating love/tolerance/unity/etc. at the same time, which had several thousand attendees vs. the dozen or so supporters (most from out of town) and 50-100 protestors at his talk.
I tend to agree with the sentiment that the solution to bad speech is not censorship, but more (good) speech, but that’s easy to say when you’re not the one being targeted by the hate speech.
Panels 7-8: I’d like to believe this is it hammering home for Robin. The cost of her policies in the lives of others. But I dunno…
A lot of folks when confronted with their own moral bankruptcy or complicity with evil just double the fuck down, trying to justify their weak-ass shit with mounds and mounds of bullshit. Hell, we’ve already seen Robin do that once in class in her defense of her voting record in the context of Joyce’s appeal on behalf of Becky.
So I fear for Leslie here and hope that Robin’s massive crush on Leslie is enough to really hammer this shit through to her on a real level.
The part that might hammer it home to Robin is the crush on Leslie, but first she has to realize that it’s actually a crush. It’s harder to ignore when you realize you’re part of the target group.
Even that’s not always enough though. Some use their money and power to insulate themselves from the reality. We’ll see where Robin goes.
I admit to being very dense about this sort of thing, but… what have we seen on the pages, here in DoA, to establish the existence of this massive crush?
Someone said Willis had established a “carryover rule” for the sexuality of most characters from IW and SP… is that what the conclusion is based on?
Or am I just being dense?
They keep exchanging blushing smiles at each other and light flirting like this: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/hmmm/
Yeah, that one can be read that way, that’s reasonable. Seems to be that’s how Roz read it.
Also, sometimes the way you guys remember details from 5 years ago is amazing. I remember the conversation, but not those details.
Archive diving. Copious, copious archive diving.
Why else is Robin even here? Her justifications are paper thin. It’s why upsetting Leslie bothers her.
It’s reading between the lines, certainly. Knowing she’s “sort of undefinably queer” from SP helps too.
Oh, I am definitely calling for a doubling-down.
Like, a single date at a bar isn’t gonna completely convert a politician’s platform.
By itself? No.
If it leads to the realization that she’s part of the minority she’s been exploiting to gain power? More possibly.
I’m working off the assumption that Robin’s in the same state of denial she was in at the start of SP and stayed in until fairly near the end. Moving from “straight” to “straight with an exception” to “bi”.
Of course, that took her a long time. Denial is definitely a talent of Robin’s, so it might well take longer here too.
If Robin is a goofy loon when sober, what’s she like when drunk? Will she even remember this chat tomorrow morning?
She’s probably the most down-to-earth and reasonable gal when drunk.
By the way, major props to Leslie for just laying it out on the table in full honesty, and not letting this simmer on for another real-life year in unspoken confusion and “dramatic tension”.
Very brave of her.
And very merciful on us on that note.
A bit of good news:
My understanding is that this is EXACTLY the sort of thing that’s likely (well, most likely) to get through to politicians.
Not petitions, not form letters, not mass emails, not statistics or discussions of general trends.
Sharing personal stories one-on-one, coupled with drawing the connection between policy and impact.
… I mean, it’s far from 100% effective, but it’s got the highest tendency of anything to work.
Form letters, petitions, statistics and discussions are fairly limited, but emails can be moderately effective, especially when people send lots of emails about the same topics.
You are correct that personal meetings, phone calls, and attending town meetings/events they go to are the best though.