Because she’s prettier than Donald Trump. Literally, that’s the only reason. If she looked like Trump, no one would think she could possibly have any redeemable qualities.
^This, pretty much. Despite DoA being it’s own continuity, and these characters not being exactly the same people as in Walkyverse, we’re still mostly basing our expectations of Robin on hope that she is still basically the same well-meaning idiot who went into politics as a lark. No appearance she’s had in DoA this far has seen her show any sort of redeemable behaviour with the possible expection of promising to throw wassisface in jail a few strips ago.
Yes, this. I have fond memories of Robin from Shortpacked! and am still hopeful that she’ll have a redemption arc. She wouldn’t be the first character from the old ‘verse to do so, but if Robin had a change of heart, she would have the potential to make things better for the people of Indiana to a much wider degree than Joyce has.
Also, I still ship Robin/Leslie, despite everything that’s happened so far in DOA.
Even just knowing her in this continuity, she’s not really like Trump at all. Sure, she sometimes works as a stand in for Trump, but that doesn’t mean her personality is anything like his.
Can you imagine any of what we’ve seen here happening with Trump? Do you imagine him getting drunk and hanging out with people at all? Do you think he’d feel bad about how a school presentation went, and want to make it up to the teacher? Do you think he’d give a shit about Ryan and drugging girls?
This whole bit has actually helped me understand how Leslie could possibly be attracted to this woman. If she, due to her experience in the closet, could see beyond the facade that Robin was presenting and saw this person underneath, I could see how she could fall for her, despite her politics, and thus hope she could change her so it would be morally acceptable to be with her.
One of the reason Trump’s popularity confounded me was how fundamentally unlikeable his personality is. Sure, if you package a bunch of awfulness in a pleasant enough package, I get that you can bring people in. That’s what various Republican candidates has been doing for years.
This woman is likeable. And I can say that without feeling the slightest bit of attraction to her.
“Do you think he’d give a shit about Ryan and drugging girls?”
He might give Ryan a few pointers. “Look, no need for the drugs. Just get famous. *When you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the —–.*”
*Everything between the asterisks is an actual quote.
You know, I’m really not digging Leslie in these panels. For her own selfish reasons, weather she be correct or not, she’s already telling Robin that she’s not straight. Last I heard, telling people what their orientations are is supposed to be a bad thing. She’s also risking outing her in a public place. Also bad. And again, for her own selfish ends more than anything.
Although, I haven’t been digging this story-line much at all anyway. I saw enough of Robin being terrible to Leslie in Shortpacked! And inevitably, Robin is going to be terrible to Leslia…because Robins terrible to people across universes.
I got it from the ‘because your afraid your not straight?’ comment, which I suppose my cynical brain read as another variation of the old ‘are you SUUUURRREEE your *sexuality*’. Never really a good sign, forcing otherwise happy people to question themselves like that.
Also, this bar counter isn’t exactly a ‘private’ place to be discussing this sort of thing. Robin is high profile and we live in smartphone-world these days, anyone could be recording. I’ve got the sneaking suspicion that Dorothy was right earlier when she said Leslie was intent upon outing Robin, and it’s despicable as it is pragmatic. If Leslie can get Robin, who she’s convinced by her own desires to already consider non-straight, to recognize it, than she scores both a personal AND a moral victory, as Robin couldn’t well stick with the right-wings agenda once she knew that, and Leslie would have a chance in hell with the object of her lust. I’ve grown wary of people who have a vested interest in other people’s orientation, who put up a facade of ‘whatever they choose’ while desperately hoping and nudging the odds in the direction they would prefer.
It’s playing with people’s lives and I don’t like it much at all. Even when it happens to Robin…which surprises me, because I disliked Robin even before it was cool.
“Forcing otherwise happy people to question themselves” suggests Robin is plenty fine with repressing herself, and I don’t think Leslie believes that. This looks to me like it’s no longer about seduction and has moved on to being about trying to help Robin out of a shitty situation.
Sure, it’s not morally wrong, but that doesn’t mean it’s not harmful to your mental health to do so.
Especially since Robin is most likely doing it not because it’s what she wants, but because she’s afraid of reprisal, and being shunned by her peers. She’s doing it not because she wants to repress her interest in other women, but because she believes it’s “normal” to do so.
Am I a bad person because I often jaywalk? No, I’m just doing something I, strictly speaking, probably shouldn’t, even if it doesn’t tend to hurt anyone, and even if many other people do it with no ill consequences. Which is still just a fancy way of saying “basically immoral (if not unethical)”
I respect in principle your right to choose to be lazy, but there definitely exists a moral argument against, you know, Sloth, as being more of a vice than a virtue, as such things are measured. And that same argument applies to other kinds of treating oneself poorly, as above.
Going all the way back up to the comic, though, if Leslie is “stepping in” on Robin’s behalf, it’s a moral gray area: bad if she’s wrong (and we don’t know exactly why she’s as confident as she is) but good if she is right (and we have meta reasons to believe she happens to be)
Something “being a vice” and “being immoral” are not the same thing though. A vice may reflect poorly on your character, but it’s not typically regarded as corresponding to good/evil.
We were discussing the morality of Robin forcing herself to into the closet, and denying her attraction to women, but as for Leslie’s actions, this whole line of questioning started with earnest response to Robin’s almost explicitly stated belief that people could just choose not to be gay. I’m pretty sure when Leslie asked “is it like that for you?”, she had no idea Robin was attracted to women, and was expecting her to realize “no, I guess it isn’t”. Leslie only seems to start to suspect today, and Robin is giving her EVERY reason to with her extremely over-the-top denial.
I really don’t see how the morality of Leslie’s actions is impacted by whether her suspicions are correct or not. If she’s wrong, what has she done? She smirked a bit at the way Robin insisted she was straight. Considering how she was miming a blowjob, that seems an appropriate reaction either way.
Yeah. I agree with the hippie. Honestly, both Leslie and Robin feel a little “off” here, although we don’t know as much about either of them here as we did in Shortpacked. I mean, its one thing to try to educate Robin about her policies (Robin being dense and obtuse about what hurts or annoys the people around her is a consistent character trait) but the end of the last comic felt like an awkward transition into the subject of Robin’s sexuality. It just doesn’t feel like the best way to broach the topic, I suppose, and it feels off to me that Leslie would push the subject this way.
Except that the entire reason they’re having this conversation is Robin’s sexuality. Robin’s obviously not admitting it, but there’s only so long Leslie could dance around the elephant in the room.
You hit the nail on the head. Both characters just seem ‘off’ throughout this whole interaction, as if it’s somehow forced, and it isn’t really any fun to read because thanks to Shortpacked! we already know EXACTLY what the end result is going to be.
It’s just not dramatic because Robin isn’t going through any sort of actual ‘growth’, she’s just turning back into the indefinably queer Robin we already knew. *Yawn* Boring. I’m just going to have to grit my teeth through these chapters and hope that at some point Willis realized that we saw all we needed to of these characters in the last comic.
So, you’re complaining BOTH that the two of them feel “off”, AND that you bored because you expect the exact same result as before? Seriously?
Maybe part of the reason it feels off is because of that expectation. If you’re convinced things are going to go the same way as before, then the story steering another direction would likely cause it to feel off.
And I doubt it will go the same as before. They will probably end up dating, sure. But the different timescale alone ensures that what we see of their relationship can’t play out quite the same. If it actually lasts until the comic ends, we’ll see less than 9 months of it, unless the singularity hits and Willis decides to continue the comic past freshman year once we’re all just brains hooked up to computers.
That almost definitely takes marriage and kids off the table, even with a bit of time compression. That plus the change in enviroment means there basically have to be different story beats than before, because that doesn’t leave many that could be repeated
Nonsense, would someone in denial loudly proclaim that the rumors are untrue in such an over-the-top way as to be inherently unbelievable? No, I thought not, checkmate liberals.
That is true, oh silly me, we all know there’s nothing more convincing and less comical than someone going to cartoonish, high school logic to claim something must be true!
One of George Bush’s former advisors is on record literally saying something to the effect of “reality-based politics is so last year, making stuff up is the new realpolitik.”
It’s not about behavior, it’s about sexual orientation. Willis has said that charactets’ sexual orientation is the same across ‘verses. Robin was ‘undefinably queer’ in the Walkyverse, ergo she’s not straight in the Dumbiverse either, even if she may not have admitted it to herself yet…
If it were anyone but Robin, yeah, but Robin is the picture next to “over the top” in the encyclopedia… so there’s no such thing as “overselling it” when it comes to her.
On the flip side we have WoG that orientation carries over, so yeah, you’re probably right.
honestly it’s hard to be mad at her because she’s still somewhere between “Trying too hard” and “still more respectful of trans women than some RL politicians”
After a friend pointed it out, even after having read this comic for years. I can no longer not see holes in their noses. Like one giant hole instead of nostrils
Nobody but etymology buffs will get this, but… the thrill is gone. (“Thrill” used to refer to both the hole made by arrows and the vibration when they hit [a lovely thought, that… “thrill” exactly describes that feeling for me.] Nostrils were once “nose thrills.” /pedantic jerk
“Mom, when did you know you and Mama were meant to be together?”
“Well, if I had to pin it down to a moment, it would probably be that time she pretended to suck an imaginary dick…”
“An imaginary cisgender dick, Les. If you’re gonna tell the story, tell it right.”
I’d like to believe this is a tell, because she sure didn’t get that from any of the other politicians she hangs out with and doesn’t respect Roz enough to listen to her when she corrects her, so maybe she got this from the chatrooms she sneaks on to when she’s pretty sure her aides have gone to bed and have taken her main twitter device away from her.
Yesterday I think you brought up the possibility that as a youth Robin might have been sent to one of those “realignment” or “reassignment” or whatever the hell they’re calling them camps where they try to “cure” LGBT people. I’d actually say that this strip points towards that being the case.
Does it really count as before “she gets her shit together” if this is the moment that she revs up the dump truck and starts piling that sweet manure into the bed, so that it may all be located in one place?
I was thinking something strap-on-ish.
Which doesn’t have to be right, but my translator doesn’t make a firm connection between the brightly colored expression “lady cock” and “I’m referring to trans women and they are definitely real women and yes some have cocks”.
She’s showing empathy and using terminology you don’t typically hear from Republicans. I think she doesn’t really track as far right as her public persona does.
Bartended for like two weeks, can confirm, people tell you whatever!
There was a really cool program a few years ago where they trained bartenders, hairstylists, and I think cabbies, in basic mental health stuff, because people talk to these folks a LOT.
You sure? Around the time the bathroom bill happened, I definitely had a few arguments with my conservative dad where he (hopefully) learned some new terminology.
Yeah, there’s been ample reason to bring up trans issues in conversation lately thanks to the spate of hate bills that have been being passed and fought in the last year. We also know that Roz has a habit of bringing up gender and sexuality stuff with sisters as she had the whole thing of supporting whatever orientation Riley was when Riley complained about her posters.
I could even see this argument having played out between those two in the past. If Roz had enough of an idea to form the plan with Leslie, it wouldn’t be surprising if she called her sister out on being in denial/the closet before.
Family values, one of the dumbest campaign platforms ever. And by that, I am referring to Dan Quayles use of it which turned my diehard republican dad into someone who voted for a different party to keep his party’s candidate out of the Oval Office.
Lincoln was not against equal rights for black people. He just thought that they and their rights would be better off somewhere else, like Central America.
This comic makes me have several questions so I’m just going to list them:
1. Wait. Does Robin recognize transgender women as women? There may be hope?
2. Is Robin sure she isn’t already drunk?
3. Is Leslie smiling because she sees through Robin’s charade?
4. Wait has Robin dated a trans woman in the past in this continuity? She seems to be implying she did.
4) I based this solely on 1) a) that she actually recognizes trans women as women. I then simply assumed that the only way she would know based on what we’ve so far seen of her in DoA is through personal experience with a trans woman, because I don’t think there are many (if any) RL republicans who do that.
Yeah seriously that comment she made shows a lot about her. As a trans woman, most people kinda try to ignore that some of us keep our penis’s, and when it is brought up, it’s typically awkward and not accepted as a valid part of our identity. It normally takes a very LGBTQ oriented person to have the correct point of view that our penis’s belong to our body as women.
Well, Leslie’s handling the offensive stuff better than I would have. Heated classroom debates with students provide lots of opportunities for patience.
And she’s a grown-up adult person, which means she’s able to have a conversation with someone and not immediately go ballistic at the first thing that even sounds like it’s heading down a road to something that might offend her or disturb her sensibilities.
She’s actually willing to see where someone is coming from before making judgements about them.
You can take that implication and cram it somewhere uncomfortable.
Leslie is going far above and beyond anything she is obligated to do, just from not having told Robin to fuck off when she showed up at Leslie’s office.
If someone says offensive, horrible things, nobody is obligated to consider their point of view, or hold their hand and walk them through what they did wrong. The idea that they should is based on the flawed assumption that it will actually be successful most of the time, and that it won’t be stressful as hell.
Yeah, the idea that I owe my oppressors hand-holding them out of their bigotry when I frequently do do that work for free bristles something fierce.
Not least of all, because I used to believe it was on me to personally save every bigot in my life and beg and scrape for my humanity. And it left me scarred as hell as hateful people in my life took advantage of my “gently, gently” approach to abuse me and act like critical aspects of who I was were not important or things to be “fixed”.
This sick idea that folks who are marginalized who choose not to go through dehumanizing pain for their own mental health are chickens who are scared of someone “offending their sensibilities” is some bigoted horseshit that values marginalized lives not at all and views their sole application and purpose to be in the improvement of dominant group lives.
And no, it’s been hard fought to realize for myself, but my life has more utility and purpose than “saving the soul” of cis people carrying bigotry against trans people.
Also, this is bothering me, cause you’ve been repeating it a lot. You keep making pronouncements about “snap judgments about bigots” except… Robin may be redeemable, but has 100% shown who she is and the level of bigotry she is carrying.
Just because someone can be saved from that hate doesn’t mean that their hate isn’t real or something you can draw a judgment about. Robin is a self-hating bigot right now and is saying and doing things that make queer lives worse. That she can change out of that potentially doesn’t change that reality.
And well, if someone was to presume she would do and say hateful things if they tried to reach out to her, they’d be fucking right. Robin has said monstrous things and the policies she supports are monstrous and she’s been engaging in some dehumanizing as fuck bullshit in this conversation so far.
That Leslie’s been willing to overlook that and reach out anyways is a sign of her strength, her desire to teach, and her massive crush and recognition of mutual flirtation. It’s not even remotely “what should be expected of all marginalized folks”.
Panel 1: “Y-yes, I mean, no, I mean, quick, over the top denialism, you’re my only hope!”
Also, is this really the first time that Robin has noticed that she’s been hardcore flirting with Leslie? That’s adorably naive.
Panel 2 and 4: I think Leslie is also of the mindset that this is adorably immature.
Like that Panel 4 is all soft smile at a loved one doing something endearingly embarrassing (a “dear Bob, help me, I still love them”, if I’ve ever seen one), but that Panel 2 is just… amazing. Like, half her face is doing the standing her ground calling her out on her denialism and the other half is just squeeing at how adorable her denialism is. And both are heavily endearing faces for a hardcore flirt.
It’s probably all a mistake, but Leslie is falling hard for what will definitely be a disastrous and unfortunately potentially toxic relationship owing to Robin’s political situation. And how hard she has been selling herself as the Straight Supremacist candidate… shoot, I meant Family Values, oh dearie me, how could I have erred in saying that?
Panel 3: Robin… you’ve never sucked a dick in your life and you’re not fooling anyone on how straight you are.
Also… tongue out close to fully extended. Add some circular movements and that’s almost a technique that’s better suited for cunnilingus than it is for terribly satisfying fellatio.
Panel 5: I want to read so much in to her both recognizing trans women as women and keeping them in mind in her rant. It’s probably just because of verbal spars with Roz, but I want to believe that there’s a secret life Robin has been having in queer chatrooms with an alias Robin believes is more anonymous than it actually is.
Panel 6: This joke is such a subtle clever joke. No, not the triumphant in your facing of Robin or Leslie’s line, but the bartender’s.
Robin in Panel 1 claims she is going to order a bourbon as straight as she is. The bartender in Panel 6 serves up a bourbon on the rocks which is decidedly and emphatically “not straight”. And it’s a perfect distillation of how over the top she is claiming her straightness while how obvious and clear her non-straightness is.
Speaking as a former professional drinker, most bartenders prefer to serve liquor on the rocks. This way they call fill the glass with ice, then pour a single shot (or maybe a shot-and-a-half) and it looks like a lot of booze. The same amount straight up looks like the bartender is short-pouring you.
And this way they keep the customer from getting too hammered too quickly. One can throw down three or four shots in a helluva hurry, to the point that someone can go from slightly tipsy to puking drunk in a matter of minutes. Forcing them to ‘strain’ the booze through the ice cubes slows down the ingestion and keeps them from getting too far around the bend too quickly.
I caught that one too. Methinks this is leading towards a very rocky tumbler.
That said, since Robin is still bi from Shortpacked! (er, some vague unidentified form of queerness that includes sexual attraction towards both men and women), her not being straight ISN’T the explanation for not knowing how fellatio works. I’m thinking this is less about her being raised up with a mandate to be straight as a line, and more about her being raised up to be the perpetual-until-married virgin.
Well, to clarify, what she’s said in the LARGER conversation is about the straight-as-a-line mandate, but her intimate lack of intimate knowledge about mouth-phallus intimacy seems to me more about inexperience.
Oh, I don’t think it’s her being not straight that’s the reason for not knowing how fellatio goes. More her likely also being a virgin in this universe, at least for guy-lovin’ and being raised in a really conservative environment and thus almost no real sex education to go on.
I totally agree with you on all points. Also, I have no clue what kind of blow job she’s imitating here. Her tongue is as far out as it can go and stuck out straight as well. That would tense up the tongue muscle (if it was relaxed, her tongue would be wide and against her chin). reducing a lot of the space in her mouth meaning if he’s not very narrow, he’s getting teeth (if he can even fit). Lots and lots of teeth. Ouch.
I agree on these points. I would like to add something though: due to double standards Robin just sunk her reelection by alienating some of the hard core “family values” conservatives she’s been courting if anyone has recorded this conversation and shows it to the rest of the world. Because she just said she loves sucking cocks (even if not very convincingly) which will, in the minds of those really strict “family values” voters, create an image of her as a “loose woman” who sleeps around. If a guy however were to say “I love receiving fellatio” or “I love performing cunnilingus” or “I like grabbing random women by the genitals” it would just be dismissed as “locker room talk”. Her aide would be having a heart attack if he heard her say that.
I really think it is possible that Robin didn’t understand until now how hard they are flirting with each other. “Just me and the professor type hanging out, having a good time. With her I feel I can be myself, you know, I don’t have to defend who I am or what I like and… oh dearie me. WACK IT UP!!!!!”
Oh Leslie. You KNOW this is a mistake, but dangit if Robin isn’t adorable.
And I also think you are 100% right that her debates with Roz has left Robin with a good knowledge of what loopholes she has to be careful with.
…stepping back for a moment: Yes, Robin is a “Family Values” candidate despite… most likely falling somewhere on the LGBT spectrum. But…
Look, I’m a straight-white-male. I will never understand the ethics of this fully simply because I’ve never had to live it. And yeah, even if you set aside Shortpacked!Robin, DoA!Robin has been setting off all kinds of Gaydar signals…
But they’re still signals, and nothing more. She publicly states that she is straight. Right or wrong, her career is centered on “I’m a straight woman with traditional values”. And they’re in public.
I’m getting a kinda uncomfortable vibe here. That Leslie’s assorted reasons for wanting to talk to Robin are leading her over a line, kinda trying to publicly out a member of congress while that person is intoxicated.
It is wrong that such an action could hurt Robin, could damage her political prospects, could get her to lose her job or become a pariah among those that were her supporters. But it’s still the case and… I’m not sure where this stops being a discussion trying to get someone to accept who they are, and starts being a serious breach of trust…
Even in Shortpacked, Robin defined herself as “straight with an exception”, and persued relationships with Joe and Ethan before hooking up with Leslie. She’s a 1 (maybe 2) on the Kinsey scale, and maybe this is the first time she’s gone this far in persuing another woman.
In SP! (like here) Robin was in denial. She moved over the course of the comic from straight to “straight with an exception” to generally kind of undefinably queer.
At the least she was also crushing on Amber, even before she met Leslie.
She’s not a 0, but it took time for her to figure out what that meant to her in the Walkyverse. How will her involvement in right wing politics in the DoA universe affect her self-identification?
She asked Leslie out to the bar. And she’s flirting heavily with Leslie, whether she realizes it or not.
I’m all for not publicly outing people, not necessarily helping them hide, especially from themselves. Robin’s made most of the choices that put her here. And mostly when sober. If she’s drunk now, rather than just being Robin, she’s either a hell of a lightweight or we skipped over a lot of drinking.
I think we’re still well in “trying to get someone to accept who they are”. She’s certainly not trying to publicly out Robin, though that might turn out to be a side effect. The ulterior motive is still far more seduction than anything else.
Yeah, not just you. Mind you I’ve seen equally broken views expressed from all over the political space so it’s hard to not view as just people being people.
Yep, just about to post the same quote.. Well at least Robins got access to the stuff WAY at the back of the closet. :-/
The main difference between Robin and Mary is that Robin does not feel the need to punish others because she’s too self absorbed to actually think that their opinions actually matter.
for future reference never refer to trans womens genitels in this regard its extremely crude and upsetting and has caused some intense dysphoria, genitels works just fine thank you – a trans women who hates the term “girl cock”
also gotta love the lgbt characters hating themselves like i get this is supposed to be realistic but its really hard to read a comic where literally everyone like you hates themselves or has to be hurt abused and threatened bc theyre lgbt its just super draining and hard esp when NONE of the straight characters are anything but “oh jeez my being lgbt is terriblr and causes me pain” c’mon willis i expect better in 20-7
Mike isn’t straight either but he doesn’t have a tragic backstory. And all of these tragic non-Straight stories are basically imported verbatim from their original universe, where they were introduced in a completely different order.
Also Danny isn’t agonizing over being not-straight so much as just agonizing over every tiny detail, which rn is moreso being dumped.
Wow 2 characters such progress excuse me while i make a slow clap for that amazing writing meanwhile every single straight person except for Sarah isn’t forced to be in pain bc of theyre sexualities or gender and Sarah’s not miserable because she’s straight she’s miserable bc she’s cold. Also this is a different universe which means they dont have to have the same dealings as their original universe’s selves. like thats such a crap argument
It’s not just two, there’s Dina with her loving supporting family, Marcie who might have gone through shit but none of it has to do with being into girls, Daisy whose big trouble is that she’s not getting layed, Grace and Mandy who are in a loving relationship, plus loads more.
Yes the comic focuses a bit more on tragic backstories than non-tragic backstories, but having dozens of flashbacks to completely happy and normal childhoods would be super boring. The story has to have some tension which means any childhood stories pretty much have to be tragic or they’re just fluffy filler (something Willis does do sometimes but again can’t do all the time without it getting dull.)
Most stories focus on things that are somehow intense or fraught. The characters and events and relationships for which there is no “drama” or “funny” tend to be left in the background.
Well, the point of this comic, in many ways, is to highlight problems that many people need not be aware of, and unfortunately that means Willis needs to put his characters through some SHIT in order to highlight those problems. If it makes you uncomfortable, well, there are plenty of webcomics where LGBTQ characters don’t constantly face this kind of harassment. Goodbye to Halos is a personal fave of mine (and it’s written by an actual trans lesbian, too).
There are lots of LGBT characters in DOA who are angst free over their gender identity /expression/ sexuality.
Mike, Becky , ( esp Becky!! ) Dina, Daisy
Ruth , Billie ( both drama queens but not over being bi )
Marcie, Carla, The couple on the floor…
Amber – Sal – Joyce easily have the most EMO problems and they are straight. Billie and Ruths problems are incidental.
My take:
Robin is a closeted Bisexual family values Republican Politician. There is no way do realistically do this story without examining her cognitive dissonance.
I think Willis is doing a great job in representation, for a cis straight guy.
You have to walk a lot of fine lines, accurately representing peoples lives — without reducing people to stereotypes;
or presenting a crapsack world where gay lives are all shit.
The last requires the most balance as fiction shouldnt be worse than the current world ( bury your gays ) but shouldn’t sweep problems under the rug , thus whitewashing our culture.
I get the draining thing. But willis isnt to blame.
I’m not arguing with your point – I am not LGBT+, it’s not my place to. This person was listing LGBT+ characters though, so I let him know the names of two people they forgot and one who was left off. I am not interested in arguing your point, just trying to spread info about the characters who exist.
No, but “X is not straight” and “Those two characters whose names you said your forgot are called Y and Z” are facts.
And you can state facts all day long, but pretending some straight, cis girl knows more about the LGBT+ experience and how it should be written than actual LGBT+ people is ridiculous.
soooooooooo in other words do the opposite of what willis is doing like Robbin Leslie Ethan Danny theyre all stereotypes Becky loves being a lesbian but how her dad treated her how joyce treated her when becky came out how the system treats her is all shit Ruth and Billie love being bi or lesbian (lesbians couldve dated guys in the past like leslie did and im not going to erase anyones sexuality based on who they dated in the past but based on what they say bc thats what you fucking do) but theyre entire thing is pain and agony and i love them but its just bad writing and i just see mike hurting ethan bc mikes a twat and Carla doesnt express her pain bc she gets so little coverage esp for being in the main cast like where that conga told her she belonged in the mens wing? unnecessary like seriously all im asking is for writers to stop hurting their lgbt characters bc it hurts the real life lgbt people who see that and your trying to argue?
God fucking dammit. Willis ACTUALLY FUCKING HAS US AND LISTENED TO US BEFORE MAKING THESE PLOTLINES. Like yeah, I want happy stories too, but I don’t want happy stories to the exclusion of sad ones – and this is the real world, with kids. Their stories won’t all be happy. Especially in a webcomic where literally everyone suffers. And in a realistic setting full of suffering, I fucking want our problems acknowledged. Happier settings should probably avoid this shit, I suppose, but that’s not DoA.
It’s not bad writing to actually use our issues /when you are actually doing it based on what your fans are telling you/. Maybe you weren’t fucking there, but the fact that Ethan was just /happily gay/ in Shortpacked? That was criticized by other gays as unrealistic. And you know, it also helps to see this shit reflected in media. Especially media people actually fucking consume. Yeah, straight people can screw up, and that can be really fucking painful, but they’ll also actually get listened to, so equally, from a realpolitik standpoint: yer doing the opposite of helping. People are just going to ignore us entirely (I can think of several memes that’d be dead as a fucking doornail if they actually read, watched, or listened to /our/ stuff.)
Pretty much everyone in this comic is fucked up in one way or another, and does and says some pretty dumb things (some of them actively harmful to themselves or others). Hence the title.
But if that’s too much like real life to be amusing, I can see why that would be a problem.
I’m neither, thanks. And Billie and Ruth are my fucking stars in this. Mine, personally. For a time, my relationship with my wife was fucked up by both of us being suicidally depressed. Somewhere out there, finally, there was something with suicidally depressed lesbians where the ‘lesbian’ part wasn’t part of the problem (and yet, was still a stressor, because hey, we have to fucking deal with the heterosexism of the cis het white majority). We literally saved each other’s lives, and nothing ever looks like that.
Nobody else has to like them – much less for the reason I do. That part’s fine. IT’s fucking painful to read comments about them because people get super zealous about their other problems, but not liking them? That’s fine. But holy /shit/ I am glad that somewhere out there, this happened, and looks like it’ll have a mostly glad ending (I would think the 5 stars from me would hinge on them actually staying together, but I’m just glad they made it, and part of the reason why in the short term was each other.)
I love billy and ruth and all the lgbt characters in this comic but i just dont like the writing? im sorry that im hurt by seeing constant pain and anguish and never anything else and like that might be because im still only 18 and just am not totally mature yet or because of home life where my life is physical abuse and i just need to see happiness for once bc all i do is cry and cry when i see this stuff but w/e im glad that you and your wife are good i was kinda hoping to avoid an argument and just hurt but thats still not allowed.
SISTER CLAIRE YOU WANT SISTER CLAIRE
sisterclaire.com
it’s obviously not ALL sunshine and happiness because otherwise there would be no plot but go to the missing moments and you will be rewarded <3
You can be hurt. And it’s okay to just walk away from fiction that hurts. There is nothing wrong with that. But something hurting for you is not the same as something being objectively bad (though it being bad for /you/ is not really particularly contestable). It can help other people – even ones in similar situations, who just have different dispositions.
But yes, if this comic hurts, like. I’m pretty sure the best advice anyone can give is ‘stop’. There are presumably comics that won’t. Well, technically the best would also include the comics that won’t, like the folks replying to you directly.
Hey crow, this is a bit late, but maybe you’ll see this anyways. I’m also a trans lady, and I’ve seen your posts. I’m not going through the exact same stuff you are, but I recognize your pain. I’m 23. If you wanna chat, click my name up above, it’ll take you to my blog. Send me a message if you like. Any topic at all.
Also, if I may offer you some comic recommendations, besides Sister Claire and GoGetARoomie, there are Ménage a 3 and it’s spinoffs, and most importantly, there’s El Goonish Shive. EGS has been running for over a decade, and the early years have relatively much worse art compared to now. Plot wise, the author didn’t really have a good handle on his characters the first few years either, but around the time of the Birthday Party arc, they really start coming into their own. The majority of the cast ends up being not straight and/or cis – one character figures out they’re genderqueer or genderfluid, Idr which. It has some drama but it’s much more lighthearted and happy – once you get past the Damien arc which is the darkest it gets. A recent arc even introduced a trans guy side character who may or may not join the main cast, eventually. The characters are non cishet (mostly), and it plays a role but any suffering is very short lived, and related more to magic than character’s genders/sexualities. Mostly.
It’s a very good comic, and the author has dropped hints about being agender/genderfluid themselves.
i think the difference in our opinions on this stuff comes from you use the characters pain to better yourself and for me its just a reminder of being beaten by my family being kicked out let back in and forced back into the closet and doing hrt in secret until i can leave in the summer where a friend in her 30’s is adopting me and me needing more to see happy lgbt characters so i know my life will be more than just misery and pain and abuse and im sorry if ive upset you i wasnt trying to upset anyone i was just trying to hurt and express my pain
*hugs* I’m sorry that the storylines have put you in distress and I would echo a lot of the other recommendations for happy queer stories without all the dark backstory that DoA queer characters tend to carry.
I too have been through some shit being queer and trans, And for me, the aspect of Dumbing of Age that has helped me most in my recovery from those dark times has been seeing these characters reflect some of my life experiences.
Brushes with homelessness, bigots, threats of death, suicide, abuse, and so on. Seeing people who’ve been through stuff like I’ve been through stuff and recovering from that. Because to me, what has been incredibly beneficial has been seeing representation wherein the characters go through all the shit, but come out the other side and successfully pick up the pieces of their lives and thrive.
Where Becky has her scars, but also has a cute dinosaur girlfriend and is working hard to be a scientist. Where Carla has her tough girl front, but is also a take-no-shit badass who gets the upper hand on bigots. Where Ruth and Billie get care for their suicidal ideation. Where Joyce claws her way out of fundie hell. Where Ethan and Danny learn to love themselves after being sold a bag of low-self-esteem and self-hatred by their parents. Where Jocelyne carves more and more of a life for herself step by step.
Cause in my darker moments, like you, I worry that it’s all a lie and that there’s no clawing out from underneath the shit. So seeing representation that doesn’t shy away from the abuse and homelessness but also presents hope? Shows those things scarring, but not breaking? That matters to me.
But that’s not going to feel the same to everyone. To you, it just feels like one more reminder of the shit you’ve had to deal with. For that, I am sorry, but I hope this helps communicate what I and several other queer folks are getting out of these stories.
Seconding Cerberus like crazy. Dumbing of Age is a good story but it doesn’t seem like the right story for you, at least right now.
Can I recommend the webcomic Never Satisfied instead. It’s a silly fantasy about kids competing to be Magician Representative with good chunk of the cast being LGBT and no prejudice against it seeming to exist in the world, so it might be a good break for you.
This is why we need lots of kinds of LGBTQ+ stories!
What I’m perceiving from the comments above this one: Some folks love to have their experiences recognized and presented, without sugarcoating, which may make them feel more understood or not alone or not ignored. On the other hand, some people love happy comics that give them a breather from the shitty circumstances, which may make them feel more in control or relaxed or good. (And some want both kinds of representation, at different moments.) Those are obv all valid things to want from representation in comics.
It’s totally legit to prefer a happy comic or to prefer a fraught comic. As you’ve noted, although DoA has happy moments, it’s usually fraught! It sounds like you’re recognizing that this comic is stressing you out right now, especially when somebody is shitty to a LGBTQ+ character, it reminds you of all the times when people are shitty to you. It also sounds like you’re reflecting on whether you want to keep reading this fraught comic, at least while you’re still up to your eyeballs in your extremely difficult home-situation. (That’s not offensive, it’s a smart impulse, it’s taking care of yourself and controlling what you can til you can enact your plan and get to a much more supportive place.)
Is that an accurate summary, am I missing anything?
Like, if fiction isn’t helping, it’s not. It really sucks when it’s not. I’m glad other people know what’s happy, because I sure as hell do not.. But I hope everything goes well for you. It shouldn’t have to fucking be this way.
As a librarian, I suggest you become more conscious of your reading profile. Everyone had things they want from what they read. A set of features and issues that makes reading that narrative satisfying and nourishing. Pace. Setting. Characters. Outcomes.
DOA has a particular constellation of these. College kids. Fairly realistic in a dramatic sense. No crime, suspense or fantasy. A wide range of representation. Drama tag pulled. Slow pace. It works for a particular audience but not for others.
If it doesnt fit your reading needs, don’t read it. Dont blame the author, especially if they have a group of readers who find the work helpful. Go and find stories that do what you need. There are stories for every reader and readers for every story. There just isn’t time to waste reading stories that don’t speak to you. Life is too short and reading is too important. I’m about to drop EGS because I don’t find it worth my time. Many here LOVE EGS, but after a year of trying, I just can’t get into it. Why would I spend time doing something I don’t enjoy?
DYW won’t be offended if you find other writing more satisfying. Most writing is personal and serves a niche audience. He would probably write it if only ten people read it. DOA can be wrong for you now and right for you later or the reverse. That’s not a reflection on you or Willis, its just the way fiction works. You can be disappointed that DOA doesn’t / no longer fits your reading profile and mourn that something you once enjoyed doesn’t suit any more. Then kiss it goodbye and find something that does.
Definitely does not mean you are in any way wrong or need to change. Doesn’t mean you aren’t welcome here. Just be happy and read the things that nourish you.
I wondered which way Robin meant it to be honest. It could be read as referring to a trans woman who decided against bottom surgery or a trans man who did. Either way, she sounds like she knows jack about trans* people.
The most important link here is that when your body breaks down alcohol, you get sugars, the same active ingredient in Cadbury cereal. So there is at least some arguments that once again Robin is acting out while high on sugars.
Ugh. As this storyline goes along it just gets more and more depressing that someone as remarkable and lovely as Leslie likes Robin and more and more depressing that we have to be there for it.
… thats what i said? like im tired of seeing stuff thats basically like “wow being lgbt is sooooooo horrible id do anything to be straight” everyone i know is more like becky w/ our sexualities we love being gay we love that were trans and wouldnt have it any other way and i just so desperately hope to see that in media someday bc this constant shit of seeing ppl like me in pain sucks
Not trying to silence your opinion, but that’s actually one of the things I love about this webcomic — we get so many different representations of being LGBT. There are people like Becky who are very loud and happy about being gay; we have Leslie who is very confident in who she is and helps support others still struggling (including, in some aspects, Robin); we have Carla who has had to deal with some shit but is also very very strong and confident. There’s Danny who is just starting to notice having same-sex crushes. And there’s Dina, who is just very very happy having a person to share her day with.
I also think that it’s worth it to show at least some LGBT folks who are in pain or who are struggling and are able to grow and get the support they need, who are able to get out of that bad place and come into a good place. But to do that, we first have to see them struggle. I know that representation sucks and basically all that’s out there are LGBT folks in pain, but I feel like most of them stay in pain. I have confidence that at least one of the relationships in this comic will get better or at least one LGBT person will become more confident and more comfortable in their skin and I am personally willing to wait and watch the storyline unfold.
(Also, speaking from my own personal experience, there were some crappy elements to my life. Not NEARLY as bad as some people have it, but. There’s some catharsis for me getting to watch Leslie talk to Robin and actually have the conversation matter. To get to see at least one bigoted opinion slowly start to crumble.)
Would you like some links to LGBT-friendly webcomics that DON’T focus on LGBT characters suffering because of their identity? I can try and whip up a list real quick
sure but leave out goodbye to halos as the writer has said something extremely racist to me in the past when i was in a chatroom with her and other readers of the comic and was told i had been owned when she said that and then told i needed to relax when i got upset about her racism and the racism of the others in the chat and dont like supporting racists
This is mainly a list of comics that I have read that have LGBT themes and I also added two other lists at the bottom, tho I have personally not read most if any of the comics on the other list, so I can’t guarantee you the quality
If anyone has any they want me to add to this list, I certainly can!
Why am I not surprised that the GTH author is terrible. Christ, every time I see something with a cutesy art style I immediately start wondering how the author is terrible these days.
there will be drama eventually, I even plan on briefly addressing abuse in a few characters’ backstories, but my comic is overall intended to be uplifting. not sure if it’s exactly what you need right now, but thought i’d suggest it. i have a tumblr where i post links to each update with any content warnings if needed btw.
also i read questionable content though im super pissed at the lack of non white characters and non straight characters and am like basically dropping it and paranatural bc its funny and i like johnny and his gang a lot i like to think that he’d stand up for jr. high me
I wonder if Robin is just in the closet or deep in denial about not being straight? It’s rather hard for those of us who aren’t straight or gay to get what we are much less embrace it especially in conservative communities (bi, poly, pan, omni, ace…). Adults and peers aren’t much help there either as when I mentioned that I was attracted to a girl as well as a boy, I was told that I was straight and that what I thought was an attraction for the girl was me just “appreciating the beauty of a woman”. When I came out, I was told I wasn’t because I had never been with a woman (but only 1 man?). I’ve had people be shocked that I wasn’t a whore out doing threesomes and such constantly. I’ve had people tell me that I should just be straight because it’s easier while others think I’m gay but covering. I wonder what Robin will encounter once she realizes who she is?
it would just be so nice if for once there was a character where being lgbt WAS important to their identity bc like its a constant thing to be being a lesbian and a trans woman is a constant thing that affects every interaction i have w/ a person it would be so nice to see happy lesbians happy bisexuals happy gay men happy pansexuals happy trans people pleople who arent just in constant pain bc of their being lgbt ppl who have a wide lgbt community bc thats usually how it ends up being we meet other lgbt ppl and find we dont have to censor ourselves or have to worry if were being too much for straight ppl or deal with casual homophobia/transphobia and its good and healing and like its just so good to have that community and seeing it always be portrayed as oh shes the lesbian friend the trans friend the gay friend etc is really unrealistic in my experience and i think that its an experience shared by many lgbt ppl
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ i was trying to find a way to say that and i just couldnt thank you like im shaking bc like im upset with a comic that i was told was progressive when i was 15 and now im 18 and im still just hoping bc its not its just not i still see nothing but pain for people like me and it just kills all hope i have for being happy someday and not just hiding my pain
Also, seeing this makes me realize your point a little better. I’m always on the lookout for media that shows gay people who are gay and have zero problems with their gayness, too.
I have so far been pretty happy about Yuri On Ice but it’s not finished yet so can’t tell you if the positivity sticks throughout the entire series. Other than that, I… have not encountered anything that show gay folks and their community being supportive and positive and no one cares about who they love. (But I also avoid most things that claim to be LGBT positive because they usually just make me angry.)
It is progressive. Like, different stories resonate differently for different folks. It is not possible for any given work to work for everyone on this regard. Much of what he’s doing is in response to criticism of Shortpacked for doing what you asked for outright.
Progressive doesn’t just mean ‘everything gets better for us’. If you don’t see how Willis repeatedly and actually fucking behaves as though the world is better than it is, I don’t know what to tell you.
Right here you have a family values politician treating trans women who aren’t operated on as fucking women. I’m pretty sure you know how rare that is of the general population – much less the damn family values crowd.
None of this obligates you to read it or like it. If it’s too painful, c’est la vie – by all means, find something that suits you better – that doesn’t hurt. That’s as it should be. But it’s the opposite of the fault of the like, one cis, hetero, white man that actually INCLUDED us, and made us real, that real life sucks, and in a setting where real life is important, he kept that suck. At least we’re actually fucking here.
Though to be clear, putting aside that I think there’s a ton of value in this kind of story, you’re still totally right that no main character is a happy letter of the alphabet soup. The closest is Carla. The second closest is… probably actually Billie (In that she’s mostly depressed for reasons that have less than nothing to do with being bi, even though her relationship with Ruth is /also/ a stressor as much as its saving her. ) And neither of these are happy gays storylines (I’d.. I dunno, if Mary hadn’t heoretically happened to Ruth then I’d probably say that’s a happy gays storyline, in this context)
It’s not objectively a good thing that the only people who aren’t miserable through their LGBT status are Grace, Mandy, and… shoot, that drummer guy who was nailing a dude. But it’s not an objective bad one either. It really sucks that it hurts. And I do think Willis could show the queer network better, since something I’ve seen increasingly in my life is that if there’s one of us, and we’re remotely out, there’s 15 of us waiting in the wings somewhere, mostly out, and looking out for each other, at least in a low-key way. We’ve seen shades of it (The queer underground railroad that hides Becky), and given the manner in which they’re dumb, I can see Billie and Ruth avoiding it, but it really ought to be more of a thing.
She is an LGBT+ character who has thus far been angst free who wasn’t on your list, which is what I was getting at. Not that’s she’s a main character (though that might be changing if she starts getting more focus away from Sal while they’re fighting). In that sense, yeah, you’re right.
I mean, you do have a point. When I think about the LGBT characters in this comic (and so far I am thinking of Leslie, Carla, Ruth, Billie, Becky, Dina, and Ethan,) all of these characters have suffered specifically because of their sexuality. Most of them were horribly targeted for abuse and three of them have been in prolonged unhealthy relationships. I think it’s a fair criticism to say that in a webcomic with so many LGBT characters (which I am happy for,) it’s upsetting to see all of them fall under this category and want someone with a more pleasant, positive experience.
Actually, wouldn’t one criticize a comic where all LGBTIQ (my autocorrect actually offered this!) are happy when we all know it’s unrealistic?
I don’t see all of the characters suffering from their part of the alphabet soup – Ruth? She was traumatized by loosing her parents and being under the uncaring hand of her asshole grandfather. Yes, Mary persecuted her for her thing with Billie, but if Ruth hadn’t been so depressed and traumatized, Mary wouldn’t have know what hit her.
– Dina? Yes, nearly loosing your girlfriend to a maniac with a gun is horrible, but her problems with life come from being slightly differently wired than most people, being gay not her defining moment in life.
– Billie? Hard to say. Did she drink so much to avoid her attraction to women?
It’s Leslie, Becky and Ethan whom we know of that other people’s problems with them being gay hurt them. And they don’t hurt because they are gay but because other people react badly to it. Ethan actually is the closest to hurting because he is gay and he doesn’t want to be.
But all of them are a far cry from “the well of loneliness” kind of self-hate (which used to be practically the only book on lesbians that got reprinted for most of the 20th century).
Trigger warning: don’t read TWOL when you are depressed, the story is incredibly depressing and hopeless.
You missed my point entirely. I didn’t say every lgbt character should be happy and unaffected, only that if one writes a variety of lgbt characters, a positive, happier portrayal would be appreciated with one or two of them. And yes, Ruth and Billie absolutely count for being targeted by a homophobic hate-slinger. Also…yes, that’s the deal with suffering because you’re gay? It’s society’s reaction and oppressive rules that cause the suffering? Ethan wouldn’t even be self hating for being gay without that critical atmosphere?
Basically, while any person on the lgbt spectrum experiences oppression, everyone’s experiences are different and having someone with a positive supportive family plus a healthy relationship plus no one literally attacking them in a hate crime would probably be nice, and the kind of character crow would likely appreciate.
I see a lot of suffering in the characters as not related to their being gay/trans/… even if they do encounter bigoted assholes with different levels of aggression which doesn’t help. Your interpretation seem to be different, you seem to see these encounters as the basic reason for their unhappiness. Based on this, we have different views on what is depicted here.
I sometimes read fancy lesbian romances with nice supportive families where all difficulties stem from the characters acting very stupid. This comic makes me think much more, ask myself more how I can reach people who are far out of my comfort zone, how to get through to people whose thinking is totally out of my ken. How to make allies and be an ally.
But I do not live in the USA, I am not surrounded by family-values spouting assholes, so that’s an entirely different point of view than having to deal with such shit every day.
Dina is one half of a lesbian couple who had to deal with her girlfriend being threatened with a gun and kidnapped and she herself was called an evil seductress and had to try to fight off her girlfriends angry dad, all of this happening in the context of severe homophobia? So yes, she’s been harmed as well.
crow, you may enjoy “Always Human”, a terribly cute and heartwarming sci-fi webcomic about a female couple, with awesome representation of other LGBT* people.
One thing is for certain: Austen and Sunati give Becky and Dina some serious competition in the “Doofiest Doofus Couple” category. I think a tie might be declared in the end.
BBCC: Who gave me the right? Being emperor of the internet gave me the right.
Also, I wasn’t really the one giving your the FEELINGS. That honour belongs to the creator of the comic. I just pointed you and others in the directions of where FEELS and DOOFUSNESS could be found. Hardly my fault that you actually listen to anything I say.
Bagge: That was a horribly groanworthy pun! Two Imperial Internet Points awarded!
Becky is literally the only reason why i still read this comic and even then her sexuality is still so poorly handled re how her father treated her how her home town treated her like its more than “im happy” its “im happy and loved” and so far i dont think shes felt that 2nd part
I don’t feel Becky’s storyline was poorly handled at all. It was a pretty realistic portrait of how LGBT people are treated in very conservative Christian settings. Like hey, reasons I’m only out to one member of my family, who is likewise super closeted to our mutual family members and gets it.
Crow, the thing is for a story to be a story something has to go wrong.
If Becky’s father and community had accepted her from the beginning she wouldn’t be here because she never would have left her Christian Collage.
Plus seeing someone (like Becky) hit rock bottom then get up and move forward, watching as someone who lost everything slowly gains something far better than what they had before, it gives people who are at rock bottom – who are losing everything – hope that It Gets Better.
crow has a point insofar that LGBT* people can and do have perfectly human problems which do not stem from their sexuality. Those make for stories too.
Willis does show those stories though, that Marcie’s story, Danny’s story, Dina’s story, ect.
There are so many LGBT characters in this comic who have problems but their problems don’t come from being LGBT, it’s just that Becky isn’t one of those many characters.
And we know there are happy LGBT characters in happy relationships but they’re not in the spotlight because they are happy and normal, and you can make so much of a plot out of a happy-normal life. What would Willis have to show?
Even sweet fluffy stories need some drama to break them up and drama only happens if there are problems.
So, we know there are happy bi people. This is /true/. And I’m not arguing it. But those characters are also /incredibly/ ancillary. They’re hard to keep in mind – and that’s important as far as someone’s reaction to the comic.
Which group does Robin most offend within possible readers: politicians with knowledge or competency, voters who trust them enough to even attempt to vote, or people who aren’t perfectly straight?
It’s a tight race.
I was trying to think what a “bi whiskey” might be when I realized Robin didn’t actually specify how she wanted it. Straight, rocks, whatever. She’ll drink whatever catches her fancy this round.
Oh wow, she hasn’t admitted to herself yet that she’s not straight. As a trans person who was so deeply in denial that I was transphobic before I started to consider if I was trans, I know first-hand that when someone prods the dissonance you end up living with, it hurts a lot up until you are able to accept who you are.
Do cisgender ladies ever refer to their strap-on as a lady cock? I swear I’ve seen that used before. I mean, Robin’s reference to “cisgender males” makes it likely that she was referring to transgender women, I’m just curious.
That’s true. You and I will have to prove our straightness by showing our willingness to give imaginary bro-jobs. Because those things are totally not gay at all!
Come on, Robin, don’t you know how to give a fake blowjob? You’re not supposed to stick your tongue out; you’re supposed to use it to poke out your cheek.
(I was skeptical at first, this strip has totally sold me on this ship.)
Aide: “It’s because shit like this we don’t leave her unsupervised.”
Frieda: “So it’s not because you are afraid she’ll end up in bed with a cute college teacher?”
Robin: “HOW MANY COCKS DO I HAVE TO SUCK TO CONVINCE YOU PEOPLE I’M STRAIGHT?”
Aide: “…please stop sucking cocks in public.”
ROBIN: “NEVER!”
When things got serious and uncomfortable and FEELy, she wacked things up in a way both Becky and Walky would be proud of. “Look at meeeeee sucking imaginary cocks. Look how wacky I am, no need to talk about serious stuff.”
She even got a smile out of Leslie. Well played indeed.
…Actually, I really want to see Robin and Walky interact more now.
“I’m totally not here skipping class so I can pretend that if I don’t see my bad grades they don’t exist!”
“I’m definitely not avoiding that cute teacher who keeps asking uncomfortable questions!”
Leslie you stupid gal, don’t give in to the dark side so easily.
Seeing how Robin acted so far it’s just not worth it, but it looks that this pairing is set in stone from Shostpacked time and “must” happen here at all cost.
That her acknowledge of trans people existing is not a point to date her at all.
Them being from Shortpacked!, or even the Walkyverse isn’t a guarantee of them happening over here.
Willis has said most of the repeats are about exploring ‘missed potential’. Leslie/Robin might be an exception and happen in both, or it might end up crashing and burning.
So far pretty much every walkyverse relationship that actually happened has either been torpedoed entirely, or has gotten a bare wink. This is all setup to make the explosion that much more spectacular.
No, but Lailah did at the start of the thread. My bad for misreading your intent.
And no, no guarantees yet they won’t continue to fuck in the future if/when Sal gets horny again (or if she gets lonelier now that Marcie’s mad at her).
I’m just not getting my head around this, I mean you have someone that helps implement bills (or whatever you call them, its midnight as I post this and I’m sleepy) that makes life harder for the LGBT community, that says you should hide who you are, acts in a way that even Joe or Walky would think is over the top and Leslie hasn’t had enough of it and left?
I really hope we don’t see a re-run of the Leslie as doormat again because watching the way Robin treated was unpleasant enough in SP and in this more grounded universe it could almost start getting into the realms of an emotionally abusive relationship
A severe crush has nothing to do with thinking.
That goes for both sides. Robin is actually risking her livelihood here. Just imagine her trying to explain a videos of her in this conversation hitting YouTube.
I’m wondering if we are going to get the “more realistic” reboot showing how ugly that type of relationship of forced closets can be. And if so, I’m really glad that Leslie is being shown with a hell of a lot more agency and snark at Robin’s closet and the crush is mutual from the get go rather than being pretended to be one-sided.
It’s a little terrifying looking back and realizing that Leslie and Robin’s relationship here is already more honest and open and healthy than they were for years in SP.
Robin is doing everything short of throwing a Monkey Master action figure at Leslie. Very weird flirting technique but Les knows what is going on. Proceed.
The fact that Robin even knows the term “cisgender” and can correctly state that just because someone has a penis does not mean they are male is… way too progressive for a “family values” candidate. Roz must have more of an effect on her than anyone realizes.
Not necessarily. Politicians play to their constituency. It doesn’t necessarily reflect on their own knowledge or even personal beliefs. Remember what she was talking about before about “keeping it to yourself”.
I think it might be a little of both. Roz is likely having a real and measurable affect on Robin, moderating some of her vileness with real facts about gender and sexuality (which seeing Robin take that information and use it mostly to “win” arguments against liberals probably is part of what made her seethe against Joyce’s queer rights awakening).
But no matter what Roz does, Robin has established her political brand as appealing to a group of sex-obsessed busybodies who think that queer folks are the literal devil and so even if she figures it all out and gets all moderated, she’s going to be under intense pressure to keep publicly decrying queer folk as demons or face the electoral consequences.
In case it’s confusing, I sometimes just post replies to several people as whole new posts, as it’s too confusing to figure out who to respond to.
So, first things first. I think Robin got all of this from Roz, and is thinking about what Roz would say to counter what Robin says. I wouldn’t even be surprised if Roz and Robin have had this conversation before, after Roz noticed Robin seeming to have a crush on a woman. (I mean, Roz only came up with setting them up because she though her sister might at least be bi.)
Second, as I’ve stated before, I was a religious conservative for at least the first two thirds of my life. I was homophobic for maybe a little less than that. And, yet, I never had any problem with trans people, and always saw them as the gender they said they were.
In fact, I thought that all gay people should go get surgery and become the other sex, so that then they wouldn’t be doing anything wrong. I thought trans people were just more honest with themselves.
It’s not like it’s in the Bible. Sure, there are scriptures against cross dressing, but nothing about what to do if you actually are a woman but look like a man, or vice versa. And absolutely no scriptures that define what makes someone a man or a woman. (And then there’s Galatians 3:28 that says that, among other things, gender doesn’t matter to God anyways.)
I bring this up to say that it’s perfectly possible to be a social conservative and think trans people are their preferred gender. It actually threw me when I learned that transphobia and homophobia worked hand in hand.
What threw ME was learning about the transphobia in the feminist community. And also the biphobia in the gay community. And the misogyny in the black community.
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“look do I need to make a sex tape or–”
“I have conflicting feelings about saying YES PLEASE but…???”
Oh, that hurts so much, damn it Ana.
NO BAD ANA
no prizes for you, that is just feelsbad
You can just see it. “Why do I like you? You’re a pain in the ass, and possibly a complete moron, but I’m completely into you. WHY?”
Because she’s prettier than Donald Trump. Literally, that’s the only reason. If she looked like Trump, no one would think she could possibly have any redeemable qualities.
Just about anything is prettier than a yam with a prolapse.
Some of us remember how she was in Shortpacked and want to see that character come back, if only for a bit.
^This, pretty much. Despite DoA being it’s own continuity, and these characters not being exactly the same people as in Walkyverse, we’re still mostly basing our expectations of Robin on hope that she is still basically the same well-meaning idiot who went into politics as a lark. No appearance she’s had in DoA this far has seen her show any sort of redeemable behaviour with the possible expection of promising to throw wassisface in jail a few strips ago.
* its
[Liberty Bell March begins playing]
+1
Yes, this. I have fond memories of Robin from Shortpacked! and am still hopeful that she’ll have a redemption arc. She wouldn’t be the first character from the old ‘verse to do so, but if Robin had a change of heart, she would have the potential to make things better for the people of Indiana to a much wider degree than Joyce has.
Also, I still ship Robin/Leslie, despite everything that’s happened so far in DOA.
Even just knowing her in this continuity, she’s not really like Trump at all. Sure, she sometimes works as a stand in for Trump, but that doesn’t mean her personality is anything like his.
Can you imagine any of what we’ve seen here happening with Trump? Do you imagine him getting drunk and hanging out with people at all? Do you think he’d feel bad about how a school presentation went, and want to make it up to the teacher? Do you think he’d give a shit about Ryan and drugging girls?
This whole bit has actually helped me understand how Leslie could possibly be attracted to this woman. If she, due to her experience in the closet, could see beyond the facade that Robin was presenting and saw this person underneath, I could see how she could fall for her, despite her politics, and thus hope she could change her so it would be morally acceptable to be with her.
One of the reason Trump’s popularity confounded me was how fundamentally unlikeable his personality is. Sure, if you package a bunch of awfulness in a pleasant enough package, I get that you can bring people in. That’s what various Republican candidates has been doing for years.
This woman is likeable. And I can say that without feeling the slightest bit of attraction to her.
Heck, the fact that she acknowledges that trans women are women is a major improvement over a large number of Democrats.
“Do you think he’d give a shit about Ryan and drugging girls?”
He might give Ryan a few pointers. “Look, no need for the drugs. Just get famous. *When you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the —–.*”
*Everything between the asterisks is an actual quote.
Fairly sure in another universe she’s been down that road xDD
“THANKS Other Universes for ruining everything!”
ROFL you jerk
Ooh…ouch…
The gay is strong with this one….
Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
You know, I’m really not digging Leslie in these panels. For her own selfish reasons, weather she be correct or not, she’s already telling Robin that she’s not straight. Last I heard, telling people what their orientations are is supposed to be a bad thing. She’s also risking outing her in a public place. Also bad. And again, for her own selfish ends more than anything.
Although, I haven’t been digging this story-line much at all anyway. I saw enough of Robin being terrible to Leslie in Shortpacked! And inevitably, Robin is going to be terrible to Leslia…because Robins terrible to people across universes.
Leslie is asking her if she’s afraid she is not straight. She is not telling her she is.
You’re reading a different comic. In what panel did she say Robin wasn’t straight?
I got it from the ‘because your afraid your not straight?’ comment, which I suppose my cynical brain read as another variation of the old ‘are you SUUUURRREEE your *sexuality*’. Never really a good sign, forcing otherwise happy people to question themselves like that.
Also, this bar counter isn’t exactly a ‘private’ place to be discussing this sort of thing. Robin is high profile and we live in smartphone-world these days, anyone could be recording. I’ve got the sneaking suspicion that Dorothy was right earlier when she said Leslie was intent upon outing Robin, and it’s despicable as it is pragmatic. If Leslie can get Robin, who she’s convinced by her own desires to already consider non-straight, to recognize it, than she scores both a personal AND a moral victory, as Robin couldn’t well stick with the right-wings agenda once she knew that, and Leslie would have a chance in hell with the object of her lust. I’ve grown wary of people who have a vested interest in other people’s orientation, who put up a facade of ‘whatever they choose’ while desperately hoping and nudging the odds in the direction they would prefer.
It’s playing with people’s lives and I don’t like it much at all. Even when it happens to Robin…which surprises me, because I disliked Robin even before it was cool.
“Forcing otherwise happy people to question themselves” suggests Robin is plenty fine with repressing herself, and I don’t think Leslie believes that. This looks to me like it’s no longer about seduction and has moved on to being about trying to help Robin out of a shitty situation.
What, exactly is wrong with repressing oneself? Its your choice.
Sure, it’s not morally wrong, but that doesn’t mean it’s not harmful to your mental health to do so.
Especially since Robin is most likely doing it not because it’s what she wants, but because she’s afraid of reprisal, and being shunned by her peers. She’s doing it not because she wants to repress her interest in other women, but because she believes it’s “normal” to do so.
It being harmful to your mental health is a pretty good argument for it being immoral–all else being the same.
Sure, if you repress in order to help others, that’s a more murky situation. But repressing and hurting yourself only?
Yeah, I’d call that immoral.
If a person does something that harms themself, but no one else, would you say they’re a bad person because of it?
Like, am I a bad person because I often eat poorly and sit on my ass for long periods, probably shaving years of my own lifespan?
No, I’m simply lazy and rather out of shape.
Am I a bad person because I often jaywalk? No, I’m just doing something I, strictly speaking, probably shouldn’t, even if it doesn’t tend to hurt anyone, and even if many other people do it with no ill consequences. Which is still just a fancy way of saying “basically immoral (if not unethical)”
I respect in principle your right to choose to be lazy, but there definitely exists a moral argument against, you know, Sloth, as being more of a vice than a virtue, as such things are measured. And that same argument applies to other kinds of treating oneself poorly, as above.
Going all the way back up to the comic, though, if Leslie is “stepping in” on Robin’s behalf, it’s a moral gray area: bad if she’s wrong (and we don’t know exactly why she’s as confident as she is) but good if she is right (and we have meta reasons to believe she happens to be)
Something “being a vice” and “being immoral” are not the same thing though. A vice may reflect poorly on your character, but it’s not typically regarded as corresponding to good/evil.
We were discussing the morality of Robin forcing herself to into the closet, and denying her attraction to women, but as for Leslie’s actions, this whole line of questioning started with earnest response to Robin’s almost explicitly stated belief that people could just choose not to be gay. I’m pretty sure when Leslie asked “is it like that for you?”, she had no idea Robin was attracted to women, and was expecting her to realize “no, I guess it isn’t”. Leslie only seems to start to suspect today, and Robin is giving her EVERY reason to with her extremely over-the-top denial.
I really don’t see how the morality of Leslie’s actions is impacted by whether her suspicions are correct or not. If she’s wrong, what has she done? She smirked a bit at the way Robin insisted she was straight. Considering how she was miming a blowjob, that seems an appropriate reaction either way.
Leslie asked what I think is a completely sincere question, which logically follows from Robin’s reaction to her previous question.
And SHE is keeping her voice down. Robin’s the one raising her voice and miming a blowjob
Yeah. I agree with the hippie. Honestly, both Leslie and Robin feel a little “off” here, although we don’t know as much about either of them here as we did in Shortpacked. I mean, its one thing to try to educate Robin about her policies (Robin being dense and obtuse about what hurts or annoys the people around her is a consistent character trait) but the end of the last comic felt like an awkward transition into the subject of Robin’s sexuality. It just doesn’t feel like the best way to broach the topic, I suppose, and it feels off to me that Leslie would push the subject this way.
Except that the entire reason they’re having this conversation is Robin’s sexuality. Robin’s obviously not admitting it, but there’s only so long Leslie could dance around the elephant in the room.
You hit the nail on the head. Both characters just seem ‘off’ throughout this whole interaction, as if it’s somehow forced, and it isn’t really any fun to read because thanks to Shortpacked! we already know EXACTLY what the end result is going to be.
It’s just not dramatic because Robin isn’t going through any sort of actual ‘growth’, she’s just turning back into the indefinably queer Robin we already knew. *Yawn* Boring. I’m just going to have to grit my teeth through these chapters and hope that at some point Willis realized that we saw all we needed to of these characters in the last comic.
So, you’re complaining BOTH that the two of them feel “off”, AND that you bored because you expect the exact same result as before? Seriously?
Maybe part of the reason it feels off is because of that expectation. If you’re convinced things are going to go the same way as before, then the story steering another direction would likely cause it to feel off.
And I doubt it will go the same as before. They will probably end up dating, sure. But the different timescale alone ensures that what we see of their relationship can’t play out quite the same. If it actually lasts until the comic ends, we’ll see less than 9 months of it, unless the singularity hits and Willis decides to continue the comic past freshman year once we’re all just brains hooked up to computers.
That almost definitely takes marriage and kids off the table, even with a bit of time compression. That plus the change in enviroment means there basically have to be different story beats than before, because that doesn’t leave many that could be repeated
Pff.
Thanks Robin.
This will be a good day~
Does it say something about me, or just the fact I am exhausted that I read that as ‘good gay’?
Former, I think.
‘day’ could be turned into a lot of things. Bay. Hay. May. Fay(e).
Oh good, we’re all on board shipping Faye and Bubbles.
I ship it but I also fear the logistics of such a relationship in that kind of world
Pretty sure that relationship can only end with someone taking over the world.
Isn’t that what Bubbles tries not to do, every night of the week?
Try to take over the world?
As obnoxious and stupid as Robin is being right now, this strip actually kinda portrays what makes them a good couple in Universe A.
Leslie’s expression is 100% “I know I should be angry, but I’m too amused.”
I’d imagine dating Robin is not dissimilar to owning a cat…
Including things getting knocked off high shelves.
Well, that’s their fault for being so high up!
I imagined Leslie waking up, with Robin sitting on her and breathing in her face and demanding Skittles. It was strange moment?
No, that would actually be totally consistent with her character.
Robin, if I didn’t know for sure from Shortpacked!, this would have clinched it. This reads like TEXTBOOK denial.
Nonsense, would someone in denial loudly proclaim that the rumors are untrue in such an over-the-top way as to be inherently unbelievable? No, I thought not, checkmate liberals.
That is true, oh silly me, we all know there’s nothing more convincing and less comical than someone going to cartoonish, high school logic to claim something must be true!
Checkmate LIBERALS?
We’re way beyond Checkmate LIBERALS.
Denial looks nothing like this! Checkmate, REALITY!
Well, I have certainly been shown! Mercy me.
Sorry, no mercy. Best I can do is Lucio you.
Dango.
You act as if people would not equate “general non bigotness” with “reality” and still manage to make fun of it
This is beyond checkmate. We’re playing 47-dimension Monopoly now!
Yeah, well, reality has a strong liberal bias.
Which is why it obviously needs to be put in its place with the rest of the liberals, and kept well away from the staunch defenders of conservatism.
One of George Bush’s former advisors is on record literally saying something to the effect of “reality-based politics is so last year, making stuff up is the new realpolitik.”
Cerberus, no fair making me laugh laugh and spill my coffee.
I love it when people reference the way a character behaved in SP! as if it had anything to do with DoA.
It’s not about behavior, it’s about sexual orientation. Willis has said that charactets’ sexual orientation is the same across ‘verses. Robin was ‘undefinably queer’ in the Walkyverse, ergo she’s not straight in the Dumbiverse either, even if she may not have admitted it to herself yet…
If it were anyone but Robin, yeah, but Robin is the picture next to “over the top” in the encyclopedia… so there’s no such thing as “overselling it” when it comes to her.
On the flip side we have WoG that orientation carries over, so yeah, you’re probably right.
This is overselling it even for Robin.
honestly it’s hard to be mad at her because she’s still somewhere between “Trying too hard” and “still more respectful of trans women than some RL politicians”
If it’s hard to be mad at her then I am a fucking PRO.
oooh good point there, too
Go home Robin, you’re drunk.
I’m not convinced that she is.
Drink your bourbon, Robin. You’re not drunk enough.
She’s not being drunk, she’s being Robin.
I’m not convinced “Drunk Robin” and “Normal Robin” have that many differences.
I think she’s just a complete horse’s ass.
Close to the same thing, but not exactly.
After a friend pointed it out, even after having read this comic for years. I can no longer not see holes in their noses. Like one giant hole instead of nostrils
Damnit…
Now I can’t unsee it either…
Don’t worry. Your mind will revert back fast enough as long as you don’t obsess over it.
Oh no
Hose noses.
WHY?! XD
Nobody but etymology buffs will get this, but… the thrill is gone. (“Thrill” used to refer to both the hole made by arrows and the vibration when they hit [a lovely thought, that… “thrill” exactly describes that feeling for me.] Nostrils were once “nose thrills.” /pedantic jerk
) Sorry, that dangling close-parenthesis bothered me.
Leslie’s faces here are sooo endearing and cute
Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn
“Mom, when did you know you and Mama were meant to be together?”
“Well, if I had to pin it down to a moment, it would probably be that time she pretended to suck an imaginary dick…”
“An imaginary cisgender dick, Les. If you’re gonna tell the story, tell it right.”
Roz is gonna go out and buy every jar of schadenfreude she can find.
A conservative politician acknowledging the fact that transgender women are, in fact, women? Well, now I know this is fiction.
I’d like to believe this is a tell, because she sure didn’t get that from any of the other politicians she hangs out with and doesn’t respect Roz enough to listen to her when she corrects her, so maybe she got this from the chatrooms she sneaks on to when she’s pretty sure her aides have gone to bed and have taken her main twitter device away from her.
Yesterday I think you brought up the possibility that as a youth Robin might have been sent to one of those “realignment” or “reassignment” or whatever the hell they’re calling them camps where they try to “cure” LGBT people. I’d actually say that this strip points towards that being the case.
If so, I think the programming might be falling apart because Leslie is definitely getting under Robin’s skin in all the right ways.
Well, not ALL the right DAMMIT I TOLD MYSELF I’D STOP SHIPPING THESE TWO UNTIL ROBIN GETS HER SHIT TOGETHER
Does it really count as before “she gets her shit together” if this is the moment that she revs up the dump truck and starts piling that sweet manure into the bed, so that it may all be located in one place?
wow that was a tortured metaphor.
Eh, I’ve seen worse. At least you’re not talking about the divorce procedures being filed between the shit and the handle.
Was that from Homestuck?
I was thinking something strap-on-ish.
Which doesn’t have to be right, but my translator doesn’t make a firm connection between the brightly colored expression “lady cock” and “I’m referring to trans women and they are definitely real women and yes some have cocks”.
She clarified “cisgender male”, so she was 100% referring to trans women
She’s showing empathy and using terminology you don’t typically hear from Republicans. I think she doesn’t really track as far right as her public persona does.
The fact she apparently knows what the term cisgender means indicates a wee bit of hope for Robin.
I wonder if her family values cred would be hurt if her family values voters saw her implying oral sex is something she’d take part in.
Yes, I was wondering why she knew the word ‘cisgender’….
I bet she’s been listening to Roz in spite of herself. Roz is good at that.
Leslie is loving this and it makes me so happy!
I know right?
That bartender probably sees weird stuff in his bar everyday if he’s not weirded out by Robin.
Isn’t he the same bartender who got to hear that one guy has a dick the size of a beer glass?
Bartended for like two weeks, can confirm, people tell you whatever!
There was a really cool program a few years ago where they trained bartenders, hairstylists, and I think cabbies, in basic mental health stuff, because people talk to these folks a LOT.
Reminds me of the Star trek pilot! “A man’ll tell his bartender things he’d never tell his doctor.”
*the jukebox has shifted to Jimmy Buffett & The Coral Reefers’ “Why Don’t We Get Drunk And Screw”*
I am…surprised Robin knows the word cisgender! I doubt most politicians do. Wonder if she’s done some googling, or is it just proximity to Roz?
I’d like to believe the former, but it’s probably a knee jerk from arguments surrounding the latter. Cie la vie.
The beauty part is, we can absolutely assume it’s the former til canon explicitly contradicts us! 😀
… it’s been too long since I took French. What does “cie” mean, again?
It’s supposed to be c’est.
It is. Autocorrect is not my friend.
Autocorrect is NOBODY’S friend.
Auton corset sit no booby’s fiend.
See? It got rid of my cap’s of NO BOOBY’S. That clearly changes the intent of the message!
French has nothing to do with it, it’s Latin.
trans meaning across and cis meaning together or on the same side.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cis-
But “C’est la vie” is French for “That’s life”. And “C’est” was misspelled by the auto-correct. 🙂
My bad, I read “cis” instead of “cie”.
Sorry for cisplaining.
That said, does one usually suck a dick with one’s tongue out like that? Because if so, man have I been doing it wrong.
I’m suspecting that Robin’s dude-lovin’ knowledge is as theoretical in this universe as it was in Shortpacked!
Good point. Maybe that was the point, I’m loopy with a cold and fresh off a nine-hour Saturday-before-Christmas shift. x.x
Ew… good luck!
Thanks ♥ How are you doing?
Enjoying two weeks off from my head of school’s bullshit.
Good! Here’s hoping for a restful, fun break 🙂
I doubt Roz would talk to Robin about that.
You sure? Around the time the bathroom bill happened, I definitely had a few arguments with my conservative dad where he (hopefully) learned some new terminology.
Yeah, there’s been ample reason to bring up trans issues in conversation lately thanks to the spate of hate bills that have been being passed and fought in the last year. We also know that Roz has a habit of bringing up gender and sexuality stuff with sisters as she had the whole thing of supporting whatever orientation Riley was when Riley complained about her posters.
I can see her pointing out women and non-binary folks with dicks exist.
It kinda feels like something she could have picked up from Roz accidentally while arguing with her about something else.
I could even see this argument having played out between those two in the past. If Roz had enough of an idea to form the plan with Leslie, it wouldn’t be surprising if she called her sister out on being in denial/the closet before.
Oh yes, that “loophole” thing definitely sounds like it is the result of a similar argument with her sister
Family values, one of the dumbest campaign platforms ever. And by that, I am referring to Dan Quayles use of it which turned my diehard republican dad into someone who voted for a different party to keep his party’s candidate out of the Oval Office.
By today’s Republican standards Quayle would probably be considered a dangerous liberal.
By today’s Republican standards, Reagan would be considered a dangerous liberal.
Also, Jesus.
Ages ago (actually in the Reagan era) a GDR Liedermacherin wrote a song “what would happen if Jesus were real?”
Here advice was “stay away, they’d kill you again”
http://www.lyrikwelt.de/gedichte/wegnerg1.htm
And Lincoln — oh, wait, he was actually against equal rights for black people. I guess he’d fit right in.
Lincoln was not against equal rights for black people. He just thought that they and their rights would be better off somewhere else, like Central America.
Pfft, Jesus was always a dangerous liberal.
Leslie, you make the cutest smiles
There are SO MANY adorable smiles in this comic! I love it!
Sal, Joyce, Marcie, Carla, Leslie, Dina, and I will admit Linda have some very nice ones.
Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
She’s Robin, she does everything “too much”.
That’s ‘Congresslady’ to you!
This comic makes me have several questions so I’m just going to list them:
1. Wait. Does Robin recognize transgender women as women? There may be hope?
2. Is Robin sure she isn’t already drunk?
3. Is Leslie smiling because she sees through Robin’s charade?
4. Wait has Robin dated a trans woman in the past in this continuity? She seems to be implying she did.
1) Apparently so and yes
2) She’s sure she isn’t drunk enough
3) Yes
4) I didn’t get that impression at all
4) I based this solely on 1) a) that she actually recognizes trans women as women. I then simply assumed that the only way she would know based on what we’ve so far seen of her in DoA is through personal experience with a trans woman, because I don’t think there are many (if any) RL republicans who do that.
Me neither, but if she dated Joscelyne at some point…
OMG, headcanon accepted!
Yeah seriously that comment she made shows a lot about her. As a trans woman, most people kinda try to ignore that some of us keep our penis’s, and when it is brought up, it’s typically awkward and not accepted as a valid part of our identity. It normally takes a very LGBTQ oriented person to have the correct point of view that our penis’s belong to our body as women.
What can I say? Some people are just dicks.
*cue tomatoes*
Well that’s getting in an interesting direction.
Well, Leslie’s handling the offensive stuff better than I would have. Heated classroom debates with students provide lots of opportunities for patience.
And more depressingly, probably nasty fights with the folks before being disowned and thrown out to the streets.
Oh. Of course that. My short term memory is strapped whilst commenting.
And she’s a grown-up adult person, which means she’s able to have a conversation with someone and not immediately go ballistic at the first thing that even sounds like it’s heading down a road to something that might offend her or disturb her sensibilities.
She’s actually willing to see where someone is coming from before making judgements about them.
You can take that implication and cram it somewhere uncomfortable.
Leslie is going far above and beyond anything she is obligated to do, just from not having told Robin to fuck off when she showed up at Leslie’s office.
If someone says offensive, horrible things, nobody is obligated to consider their point of view, or hold their hand and walk them through what they did wrong. The idea that they should is based on the flawed assumption that it will actually be successful most of the time, and that it won’t be stressful as hell.
Yeah, the idea that I owe my oppressors hand-holding them out of their bigotry when I frequently do do that work for free bristles something fierce.
Not least of all, because I used to believe it was on me to personally save every bigot in my life and beg and scrape for my humanity. And it left me scarred as hell as hateful people in my life took advantage of my “gently, gently” approach to abuse me and act like critical aspects of who I was were not important or things to be “fixed”.
This sick idea that folks who are marginalized who choose not to go through dehumanizing pain for their own mental health are chickens who are scared of someone “offending their sensibilities” is some bigoted horseshit that values marginalized lives not at all and views their sole application and purpose to be in the improvement of dominant group lives.
And no, it’s been hard fought to realize for myself, but my life has more utility and purpose than “saving the soul” of cis people carrying bigotry against trans people.
Also, this is bothering me, cause you’ve been repeating it a lot. You keep making pronouncements about “snap judgments about bigots” except… Robin may be redeemable, but has 100% shown who she is and the level of bigotry she is carrying.
Just because someone can be saved from that hate doesn’t mean that their hate isn’t real or something you can draw a judgment about. Robin is a self-hating bigot right now and is saying and doing things that make queer lives worse. That she can change out of that potentially doesn’t change that reality.
And well, if someone was to presume she would do and say hateful things if they tried to reach out to her, they’d be fucking right. Robin has said monstrous things and the policies she supports are monstrous and she’s been engaging in some dehumanizing as fuck bullshit in this conversation so far.
That Leslie’s been willing to overlook that and reach out anyways is a sign of her strength, her desire to teach, and her massive crush and recognition of mutual flirtation. It’s not even remotely “what should be expected of all marginalized folks”.
DoA!Robin officially won my affection.
“I am the family values candidate! Watch me simulate a sex act in public!”
^
Can I have one of whatever she’s having?
Comic Reactions:
Panel 1: “Y-yes, I mean, no, I mean, quick, over the top denialism, you’re my only hope!”
Also, is this really the first time that Robin has noticed that she’s been hardcore flirting with Leslie? That’s adorably naive.
Panel 2 and 4: I think Leslie is also of the mindset that this is adorably immature.
Like that Panel 4 is all soft smile at a loved one doing something endearingly embarrassing (a “dear Bob, help me, I still love them”, if I’ve ever seen one), but that Panel 2 is just… amazing. Like, half her face is doing the standing her ground calling her out on her denialism and the other half is just squeeing at how adorable her denialism is. And both are heavily endearing faces for a hardcore flirt.
It’s probably all a mistake, but Leslie is falling hard for what will definitely be a disastrous and unfortunately potentially toxic relationship owing to Robin’s political situation. And how hard she has been selling herself as the Straight Supremacist candidate… shoot, I meant Family Values, oh dearie me, how could I have erred in saying that?
Panel 3: Robin… you’ve never sucked a dick in your life and you’re not fooling anyone on how straight you are.
Also… tongue out close to fully extended. Add some circular movements and that’s almost a technique that’s better suited for cunnilingus than it is for terribly satisfying fellatio.
Panel 5: I want to read so much in to her both recognizing trans women as women and keeping them in mind in her rant. It’s probably just because of verbal spars with Roz, but I want to believe that there’s a secret life Robin has been having in queer chatrooms with an alias Robin believes is more anonymous than it actually is.
Panel 6: This joke is such a subtle clever joke. No, not the triumphant in your facing of Robin or Leslie’s line, but the bartender’s.
Robin in Panel 1 claims she is going to order a bourbon as straight as she is. The bartender in Panel 6 serves up a bourbon on the rocks which is decidedly and emphatically “not straight”. And it’s a perfect distillation of how over the top she is claiming her straightness while how obvious and clear her non-straightness is.
Speaking as a former professional drinker, most bartenders prefer to serve liquor on the rocks. This way they call fill the glass with ice, then pour a single shot (or maybe a shot-and-a-half) and it looks like a lot of booze. The same amount straight up looks like the bartender is short-pouring you.
And this way they keep the customer from getting too hammered too quickly. One can throw down three or four shots in a helluva hurry, to the point that someone can go from slightly tipsy to puking drunk in a matter of minutes. Forcing them to ‘strain’ the booze through the ice cubes slows down the ingestion and keeps them from getting too far around the bend too quickly.
I caught that one too. Methinks this is leading towards a very rocky tumbler.
That said, since Robin is still bi from Shortpacked! (er, some vague unidentified form of queerness that includes sexual attraction towards both men and women), her not being straight ISN’T the explanation for not knowing how fellatio works. I’m thinking this is less about her being raised up with a mandate to be straight as a line, and more about her being raised up to be the perpetual-until-married virgin.
Well, to clarify, what she’s said in the LARGER conversation is about the straight-as-a-line mandate, but her intimate lack of intimate knowledge about mouth-phallus intimacy seems to me more about inexperience.
Oh, I don’t think it’s her being not straight that’s the reason for not knowing how fellatio goes. More her likely also being a virgin in this universe, at least for guy-lovin’ and being raised in a really conservative environment and thus almost no real sex education to go on.
Panel six, ooooh, well spotted! I totally missed that.
I totally agree with you on all points. Also, I have no clue what kind of blow job she’s imitating here. Her tongue is as far out as it can go and stuck out straight as well. That would tense up the tongue muscle (if it was relaxed, her tongue would be wide and against her chin). reducing a lot of the space in her mouth meaning if he’s not very narrow, he’s getting teeth (if he can even fit). Lots and lots of teeth. Ouch.
I agree on these points. I would like to add something though: due to double standards Robin just sunk her reelection by alienating some of the hard core “family values” conservatives she’s been courting if anyone has recorded this conversation and shows it to the rest of the world. Because she just said she loves sucking cocks (even if not very convincingly) which will, in the minds of those really strict “family values” voters, create an image of her as a “loose woman” who sleeps around. If a guy however were to say “I love receiving fellatio” or “I love performing cunnilingus” or “I like grabbing random women by the genitals” it would just be dismissed as “locker room talk”. Her aide would be having a heart attack if he heard her say that.
I really think it is possible that Robin didn’t understand until now how hard they are flirting with each other. “Just me and the professor type hanging out, having a good time. With her I feel I can be myself, you know, I don’t have to defend who I am or what I like and… oh dearie me. WACK IT UP!!!!!”
Oh Leslie. You KNOW this is a mistake, but dangit if Robin isn’t adorable.
And I also think you are 100% right that her debates with Roz has left Robin with a good knowledge of what loopholes she has to be careful with.
…stepping back for a moment: Yes, Robin is a “Family Values” candidate despite… most likely falling somewhere on the LGBT spectrum. But…
Look, I’m a straight-white-male. I will never understand the ethics of this fully simply because I’ve never had to live it. And yeah, even if you set aside Shortpacked!Robin, DoA!Robin has been setting off all kinds of Gaydar signals…
But they’re still signals, and nothing more. She publicly states that she is straight. Right or wrong, her career is centered on “I’m a straight woman with traditional values”. And they’re in public.
I’m getting a kinda uncomfortable vibe here. That Leslie’s assorted reasons for wanting to talk to Robin are leading her over a line, kinda trying to publicly out a member of congress while that person is intoxicated.
It is wrong that such an action could hurt Robin, could damage her political prospects, could get her to lose her job or become a pariah among those that were her supporters. But it’s still the case and… I’m not sure where this stops being a discussion trying to get someone to accept who they are, and starts being a serious breach of trust…
…any of that rambling make sense?
Even in Shortpacked, Robin defined herself as “straight with an exception”, and persued relationships with Joe and Ethan before hooking up with Leslie. She’s a 1 (maybe 2) on the Kinsey scale, and maybe this is the first time she’s gone this far in persuing another woman.
In SP! (like here) Robin was in denial. She moved over the course of the comic from straight to “straight with an exception” to generally kind of undefinably queer.
At the least she was also crushing on Amber, even before she met Leslie.
You’re right, I completely forgot about that one!
She’s not a 0, but it took time for her to figure out what that meant to her in the Walkyverse. How will her involvement in right wing politics in the DoA universe affect her self-identification?
She asked Leslie out to the bar. And she’s flirting heavily with Leslie, whether she realizes it or not.
I’m all for not publicly outing people, not necessarily helping them hide, especially from themselves. Robin’s made most of the choices that put her here. And mostly when sober. If she’s drunk now, rather than just being Robin, she’s either a hell of a lightweight or we skipped over a lot of drinking.
I think we’re still well in “trying to get someone to accept who they are”. She’s certainly not trying to publicly out Robin, though that might turn out to be a side effect. The ulterior motive is still far more seduction than anything else.
Of course Cerberus is the first comment I see calling out the “straight” vs “on the rocks” bit 😀
Nice! I did not catch the “on the rocks” joke the first time, thanks for pointing it out!
Also, oh my Bob, that alt-text. I’ve legit seen that argument in the wild made by Robin types playing gotcha and it’s just as pathetic there too.
Oh good, that isn’t just me.
Yeah, not just you. Mind you I’ve seen equally broken views expressed from all over the political space so it’s hard to not view as just people being people.
Yeah, terrible arguments and ignorant positions and kneejerk opinions are pretty much equal-opportunity across the entire 3D political “space”.
I usually know my trolls pretty well, but the possibility of someone doing that sincerely hadn’t even crossed my mind
Oh God. Well, I suppose they won that argument then. Not much to say against it.
Oh Robin. No matter the universe, always the same.
Inexplicably successful?
Methinks Robin doth protest too much.
Skater Girl beat me to it.
Yep, just about to post the same quote.. Well at least Robins got access to the stuff WAY at the back of the closet. :-/
The main difference between Robin and Mary is that Robin does not feel the need to punish others because she’s too self absorbed to actually think that their opinions actually matter.
I’m not a Lesbian: “See, I’m cool with cocks when they are Imaginary”
^^ supposed to say “cool with *sucking* cock”
ooh, i like when I have Dorothy as an Icon.
Its funny how i relate differently to breingfemale gender of different characters icons
Being snarky Dorothy doesnt give me any weird feelings.
Being Amber freaks me out after a while. Its not that she cant fit me, its that she fits too well and distorts my sense of self.
I had Amber for 6 months, I would see her icon and automatically think “thats me” and it started to creep me out.
Which is odd since shes heroic. But I probably wouldnt notice these shifts in male characters icons.
for future reference never refer to trans womens genitels in this regard its extremely crude and upsetting and has caused some intense dysphoria, genitels works just fine thank you – a trans women who hates the term “girl cock”
also gotta love the lgbt characters hating themselves like i get this is supposed to be realistic but its really hard to read a comic where literally everyone like you hates themselves or has to be hurt abused and threatened bc theyre lgbt its just super draining and hard esp when NONE of the straight characters are anything but “oh jeez my being lgbt is terriblr and causes me pain” c’mon willis i expect better in 20-7
Mike isn’t straight either but he doesn’t have a tragic backstory. And all of these tragic non-Straight stories are basically imported verbatim from their original universe, where they were introduced in a completely different order.
Also Danny isn’t agonizing over being not-straight so much as just agonizing over every tiny detail, which rn is moreso being dumped.
Wow 2 characters such progress excuse me while i make a slow clap for that amazing writing meanwhile every single straight person except for Sarah isn’t forced to be in pain bc of theyre sexualities or gender and Sarah’s not miserable because she’s straight she’s miserable bc she’s cold. Also this is a different universe which means they dont have to have the same dealings as their original universe’s selves. like thats such a crap argument
It’s not just two, there’s Dina with her loving supporting family, Marcie who might have gone through shit but none of it has to do with being into girls, Daisy whose big trouble is that she’s not getting layed, Grace and Mandy who are in a loving relationship, plus loads more.
Yes the comic focuses a bit more on tragic backstories than non-tragic backstories, but having dozens of flashbacks to completely happy and normal childhoods would be super boring. The story has to have some tension which means any childhood stories pretty much have to be tragic or they’re just fluffy filler (something Willis does do sometimes but again can’t do all the time without it getting dull.)
The glass of drama is dark.
Most stories focus on things that are somehow intense or fraught. The characters and events and relationships for which there is no “drama” or “funny” tend to be left in the background.
Well, the point of this comic, in many ways, is to highlight problems that many people need not be aware of, and unfortunately that means Willis needs to put his characters through some SHIT in order to highlight those problems. If it makes you uncomfortable, well, there are plenty of webcomics where LGBTQ characters don’t constantly face this kind of harassment. Goodbye to Halos is a personal fave of mine (and it’s written by an actual trans lesbian, too).
There are lots of LGBT characters in DOA who are angst free over their gender identity /expression/ sexuality.
Mike, Becky , ( esp Becky!! ) Dina, Daisy
Ruth , Billie ( both drama queens but not over being bi )
Marcie, Carla, The couple on the floor…
Amber – Sal – Joyce easily have the most EMO problems and they are straight. Billie and Ruths problems are incidental.
My take:
Robin is a closeted Bisexual family values Republican Politician. There is no way do realistically do this story without examining her cognitive dissonance.
I think Willis is doing a great job in representation, for a cis straight guy.
You have to walk a lot of fine lines, accurately representing peoples lives — without reducing people to stereotypes;
or presenting a crapsack world where gay lives are all shit.
The last requires the most balance as fiction shouldnt be worse than the current world ( bury your gays ) but shouldn’t sweep problems under the rug , thus whitewashing our culture.
I get the draining thing. But willis isnt to blame.
The couple on the floor are named Grace and Mandy. Also worth noting Sierra is likewise bisexual.
and they hardly exist in this comic like seriously how many panels have they been in? like maybe 20 or 30 tops out of like 2000 thats nothing.
I’m not arguing with your point – I am not LGBT+, it’s not my place to. This person was listing LGBT+ characters though, so I let him know the names of two people they forgot and one who was left off. I am not interested in arguing your point, just trying to spread info about the characters who exist.
ah ok thank you sorry just on edge bc of this thread like seriously, straight cis people, you really need to let us express our fucking pain
No worries! I think Adam Black is LGBT+ though, if I’ve read his comment correctly. But now I am staying out of this.
Do facts have a gender, or orientation, or race, or religion?
No, but “X is not straight” and “Those two characters whose names you said your forgot are called Y and Z” are facts.
And you can state facts all day long, but pretending some straight, cis girl knows more about the LGBT+ experience and how it should be written than actual LGBT+ people is ridiculous.
soooooooooo in other words do the opposite of what willis is doing like Robbin Leslie Ethan Danny theyre all stereotypes Becky loves being a lesbian but how her dad treated her how joyce treated her when becky came out how the system treats her is all shit Ruth and Billie love being bi or lesbian (lesbians couldve dated guys in the past like leslie did and im not going to erase anyones sexuality based on who they dated in the past but based on what they say bc thats what you fucking do) but theyre entire thing is pain and agony and i love them but its just bad writing and i just see mike hurting ethan bc mikes a twat and Carla doesnt express her pain bc she gets so little coverage esp for being in the main cast like where that conga told her she belonged in the mens wing? unnecessary like seriously all im asking is for writers to stop hurting their lgbt characters bc it hurts the real life lgbt people who see that and your trying to argue?
God fucking dammit. Willis ACTUALLY FUCKING HAS US AND LISTENED TO US BEFORE MAKING THESE PLOTLINES. Like yeah, I want happy stories too, but I don’t want happy stories to the exclusion of sad ones – and this is the real world, with kids. Their stories won’t all be happy. Especially in a webcomic where literally everyone suffers. And in a realistic setting full of suffering, I fucking want our problems acknowledged. Happier settings should probably avoid this shit, I suppose, but that’s not DoA.
It’s not bad writing to actually use our issues /when you are actually doing it based on what your fans are telling you/. Maybe you weren’t fucking there, but the fact that Ethan was just /happily gay/ in Shortpacked? That was criticized by other gays as unrealistic. And you know, it also helps to see this shit reflected in media. Especially media people actually fucking consume. Yeah, straight people can screw up, and that can be really fucking painful, but they’ll also actually get listened to, so equally, from a realpolitik standpoint: yer doing the opposite of helping. People are just going to ignore us entirely (I can think of several memes that’d be dead as a fucking doornail if they actually read, watched, or listened to /our/ stuff.)
Completely off-topic but I just wanna say I <3 your use of "conga" for "massive bongo". 😀
Pretty much everyone in this comic is fucked up in one way or another, and does and says some pretty dumb things (some of them actively harmful to themselves or others). Hence the title.
But if that’s too much like real life to be amusing, I can see why that would be a problem.
it’s amusing if your straight or white i suppose?s
I’m neither, thanks. And Billie and Ruth are my fucking stars in this. Mine, personally. For a time, my relationship with my wife was fucked up by both of us being suicidally depressed. Somewhere out there, finally, there was something with suicidally depressed lesbians where the ‘lesbian’ part wasn’t part of the problem (and yet, was still a stressor, because hey, we have to fucking deal with the heterosexism of the cis het white majority). We literally saved each other’s lives, and nothing ever looks like that.
Nobody else has to like them – much less for the reason I do. That part’s fine. IT’s fucking painful to read comments about them because people get super zealous about their other problems, but not liking them? That’s fine. But holy /shit/ I am glad that somewhere out there, this happened, and looks like it’ll have a mostly glad ending (I would think the 5 stars from me would hinge on them actually staying together, but I’m just glad they made it, and part of the reason why in the short term was each other.)
I love billy and ruth and all the lgbt characters in this comic but i just dont like the writing? im sorry that im hurt by seeing constant pain and anguish and never anything else and like that might be because im still only 18 and just am not totally mature yet or because of home life where my life is physical abuse and i just need to see happiness for once bc all i do is cry and cry when i see this stuff but w/e im glad that you and your wife are good i was kinda hoping to avoid an argument and just hurt but thats still not allowed.
SISTER CLAIRE YOU WANT SISTER CLAIRE
sisterclaire.com
it’s obviously not ALL sunshine and happiness because otherwise there would be no plot but go to the missing moments and you will be rewarded <3
Go Get a Roomie is great too. One of the precious few long form stories in any medium that has no villains.
http://www.gogetaroomie.com
You can be hurt. And it’s okay to just walk away from fiction that hurts. There is nothing wrong with that. But something hurting for you is not the same as something being objectively bad (though it being bad for /you/ is not really particularly contestable). It can help other people – even ones in similar situations, who just have different dispositions.
But yes, if this comic hurts, like. I’m pretty sure the best advice anyone can give is ‘stop’. There are presumably comics that won’t. Well, technically the best would also include the comics that won’t, like the folks replying to you directly.
Hey crow, this is a bit late, but maybe you’ll see this anyways. I’m also a trans lady, and I’ve seen your posts. I’m not going through the exact same stuff you are, but I recognize your pain. I’m 23. If you wanna chat, click my name up above, it’ll take you to my blog. Send me a message if you like. Any topic at all.
Also, if I may offer you some comic recommendations, besides Sister Claire and GoGetARoomie, there are Ménage a 3 and it’s spinoffs, and most importantly, there’s El Goonish Shive. EGS has been running for over a decade, and the early years have relatively much worse art compared to now. Plot wise, the author didn’t really have a good handle on his characters the first few years either, but around the time of the Birthday Party arc, they really start coming into their own. The majority of the cast ends up being not straight and/or cis – one character figures out they’re genderqueer or genderfluid, Idr which. It has some drama but it’s much more lighthearted and happy – once you get past the Damien arc which is the darkest it gets. A recent arc even introduced a trans guy side character who may or may not join the main cast, eventually. The characters are non cishet (mostly), and it plays a role but any suffering is very short lived, and related more to magic than character’s genders/sexualities. Mostly.
It’s a very good comic, and the author has dropped hints about being agender/genderfluid themselves.
i think the difference in our opinions on this stuff comes from you use the characters pain to better yourself and for me its just a reminder of being beaten by my family being kicked out let back in and forced back into the closet and doing hrt in secret until i can leave in the summer where a friend in her 30’s is adopting me and me needing more to see happy lgbt characters so i know my life will be more than just misery and pain and abuse and im sorry if ive upset you i wasnt trying to upset anyone i was just trying to hurt and express my pain
*hugs* I’m sorry that the storylines have put you in distress and I would echo a lot of the other recommendations for happy queer stories without all the dark backstory that DoA queer characters tend to carry.
I too have been through some shit being queer and trans, And for me, the aspect of Dumbing of Age that has helped me most in my recovery from those dark times has been seeing these characters reflect some of my life experiences.
Brushes with homelessness, bigots, threats of death, suicide, abuse, and so on. Seeing people who’ve been through stuff like I’ve been through stuff and recovering from that. Because to me, what has been incredibly beneficial has been seeing representation wherein the characters go through all the shit, but come out the other side and successfully pick up the pieces of their lives and thrive.
Where Becky has her scars, but also has a cute dinosaur girlfriend and is working hard to be a scientist. Where Carla has her tough girl front, but is also a take-no-shit badass who gets the upper hand on bigots. Where Ruth and Billie get care for their suicidal ideation. Where Joyce claws her way out of fundie hell. Where Ethan and Danny learn to love themselves after being sold a bag of low-self-esteem and self-hatred by their parents. Where Jocelyne carves more and more of a life for herself step by step.
Cause in my darker moments, like you, I worry that it’s all a lie and that there’s no clawing out from underneath the shit. So seeing representation that doesn’t shy away from the abuse and homelessness but also presents hope? Shows those things scarring, but not breaking? That matters to me.
But that’s not going to feel the same to everyone. To you, it just feels like one more reminder of the shit you’ve had to deal with. For that, I am sorry, but I hope this helps communicate what I and several other queer folks are getting out of these stories.
Seconding Cerberus like crazy. Dumbing of Age is a good story but it doesn’t seem like the right story for you, at least right now.
Can I recommend the webcomic Never Satisfied instead. It’s a silly fantasy about kids competing to be Magician Representative with good chunk of the cast being LGBT and no prejudice against it seeming to exist in the world, so it might be a good break for you.
Love to you, Crow, and also to the responders.
This is why we need lots of kinds of LGBTQ+ stories!
What I’m perceiving from the comments above this one: Some folks love to have their experiences recognized and presented, without sugarcoating, which may make them feel more understood or not alone or not ignored. On the other hand, some people love happy comics that give them a breather from the shitty circumstances, which may make them feel more in control or relaxed or good. (And some want both kinds of representation, at different moments.) Those are obv all valid things to want from representation in comics.
It’s totally legit to prefer a happy comic or to prefer a fraught comic. As you’ve noted, although DoA has happy moments, it’s usually fraught! It sounds like you’re recognizing that this comic is stressing you out right now, especially when somebody is shitty to a LGBTQ+ character, it reminds you of all the times when people are shitty to you. It also sounds like you’re reflecting on whether you want to keep reading this fraught comic, at least while you’re still up to your eyeballs in your extremely difficult home-situation. (That’s not offensive, it’s a smart impulse, it’s taking care of yourself and controlling what you can til you can enact your plan and get to a much more supportive place.)
Is that an accurate summary, am I missing anything?
Like, if fiction isn’t helping, it’s not. It really sucks when it’s not. I’m glad other people know what’s happy, because I sure as hell do not.. But I hope everything goes well for you. It shouldn’t have to fucking be this way.
As a librarian, I suggest you become more conscious of your reading profile. Everyone had things they want from what they read. A set of features and issues that makes reading that narrative satisfying and nourishing. Pace. Setting. Characters. Outcomes.
DOA has a particular constellation of these. College kids. Fairly realistic in a dramatic sense. No crime, suspense or fantasy. A wide range of representation. Drama tag pulled. Slow pace. It works for a particular audience but not for others.
If it doesnt fit your reading needs, don’t read it. Dont blame the author, especially if they have a group of readers who find the work helpful. Go and find stories that do what you need. There are stories for every reader and readers for every story. There just isn’t time to waste reading stories that don’t speak to you. Life is too short and reading is too important. I’m about to drop EGS because I don’t find it worth my time. Many here LOVE EGS, but after a year of trying, I just can’t get into it. Why would I spend time doing something I don’t enjoy?
DYW won’t be offended if you find other writing more satisfying. Most writing is personal and serves a niche audience. He would probably write it if only ten people read it. DOA can be wrong for you now and right for you later or the reverse. That’s not a reflection on you or Willis, its just the way fiction works. You can be disappointed that DOA doesn’t / no longer fits your reading profile and mourn that something you once enjoyed doesn’t suit any more. Then kiss it goodbye and find something that does.
Definitely does not mean you are in any way wrong or need to change. Doesn’t mean you aren’t welcome here. Just be happy and read the things that nourish you.
I’m sorry hun *hugs*
I wondered which way Robin meant it to be honest. It could be read as referring to a trans woman who decided against bottom surgery or a trans man who did. Either way, she sounds like she knows jack about trans* people.
The most important link here is that when your body breaks down alcohol, you get sugars, the same active ingredient in Cadbury cereal. So there is at least some arguments that once again Robin is acting out while high on sugars.
I’m still pushing my pet theory that this is Shortpacked Robin, mid Cadbury blackout, and she’s moving fast enough to phase between universes.
Ugh. As this storyline goes along it just gets more and more depressing that someone as remarkable and lovely as Leslie likes Robin and more and more depressing that we have to be there for it.
or that yet again the lgbt character is in pain
They’re both LGBT. That’s kind of part of the point. One is lesbian, the other is bi.
… thats what i said? like im tired of seeing stuff thats basically like “wow being lgbt is sooooooo horrible id do anything to be straight” everyone i know is more like becky w/ our sexualities we love being gay we love that were trans and wouldnt have it any other way and i just so desperately hope to see that in media someday bc this constant shit of seeing ppl like me in pain sucks
Not trying to silence your opinion, but that’s actually one of the things I love about this webcomic — we get so many different representations of being LGBT. There are people like Becky who are very loud and happy about being gay; we have Leslie who is very confident in who she is and helps support others still struggling (including, in some aspects, Robin); we have Carla who has had to deal with some shit but is also very very strong and confident. There’s Danny who is just starting to notice having same-sex crushes. And there’s Dina, who is just very very happy having a person to share her day with.
I also think that it’s worth it to show at least some LGBT folks who are in pain or who are struggling and are able to grow and get the support they need, who are able to get out of that bad place and come into a good place. But to do that, we first have to see them struggle. I know that representation sucks and basically all that’s out there are LGBT folks in pain, but I feel like most of them stay in pain. I have confidence that at least one of the relationships in this comic will get better or at least one LGBT person will become more confident and more comfortable in their skin and I am personally willing to wait and watch the storyline unfold.
(Also, speaking from my own personal experience, there were some crappy elements to my life. Not NEARLY as bad as some people have it, but. There’s some catharsis for me getting to watch Leslie talk to Robin and actually have the conversation matter. To get to see at least one bigoted opinion slowly start to crumble.)
Darn it, this was supposed be a reply to one of Crow’s other comments.
WAIT I am very tired, this was the right one. IGNORE ME, everyone, nothing to see here.
Ah, I thought you’d been referring to Leslie’s probable unhappiness and ignoring Robin’s.
no im mostly referencing robins and also referencing how painful it is to be told by other people like you that your wrong
Would you like some links to LGBT-friendly webcomics that DON’T focus on LGBT characters suffering because of their identity? I can try and whip up a list real quick
sure but leave out goodbye to halos as the writer has said something extremely racist to me in the past when i was in a chatroom with her and other readers of the comic and was told i had been owned when she said that and then told i needed to relax when i got upset about her racism and the racism of the others in the chat and dont like supporting racists
Sorry, that took longer than I would’ve liked! https://jpst.it/QwBq
This is mainly a list of comics that I have read that have LGBT themes and I also added two other lists at the bottom, tho I have personally not read most if any of the comics on the other list, so I can’t guarantee you the quality
If anyone has any they want me to add to this list, I certainly can!
oooh cool, thank you for the list!
Why am I not surprised that the GTH author is terrible. Christ, every time I see something with a cutesy art style I immediately start wondering how the author is terrible these days.
there will be drama eventually, I even plan on briefly addressing abuse in a few characters’ backstories, but my comic is overall intended to be uplifting. not sure if it’s exactly what you need right now, but thought i’d suggest it. i have a tumblr where i post links to each update with any content warnings if needed btw.
also i read questionable content though im super pissed at the lack of non white characters and non straight characters and am like basically dropping it and paranatural bc its funny and i like johnny and his gang a lot i like to think that he’d stand up for jr. high me
I wonder if Robin is just in the closet or deep in denial about not being straight? It’s rather hard for those of us who aren’t straight or gay to get what we are much less embrace it especially in conservative communities (bi, poly, pan, omni, ace…). Adults and peers aren’t much help there either as when I mentioned that I was attracted to a girl as well as a boy, I was told that I was straight and that what I thought was an attraction for the girl was me just “appreciating the beauty of a woman”. When I came out, I was told I wasn’t because I had never been with a woman (but only 1 man?). I’ve had people be shocked that I wasn’t a whore out doing threesomes and such constantly. I’ve had people tell me that I should just be straight because it’s easier while others think I’m gay but covering. I wonder what Robin will encounter once she realizes who she is?
it would just be so nice if for once there was a character where being lgbt WAS important to their identity bc like its a constant thing to be being a lesbian and a trans woman is a constant thing that affects every interaction i have w/ a person it would be so nice to see happy lesbians happy bisexuals happy gay men happy pansexuals happy trans people pleople who arent just in constant pain bc of their being lgbt ppl who have a wide lgbt community bc thats usually how it ends up being we meet other lgbt ppl and find we dont have to censor ourselves or have to worry if were being too much for straight ppl or deal with casual homophobia/transphobia and its good and healing and like its just so good to have that community and seeing it always be portrayed as oh shes the lesbian friend the trans friend the gay friend etc is really unrealistic in my experience and i think that its an experience shared by many lgbt ppl
isn’t that what becky is? girl’s shouting her identity to the heavens in joy.
and she and Dina are absolutely smitten and happy with each other.
Becky’s is not a happy story.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ i was trying to find a way to say that and i just couldnt thank you like im shaking bc like im upset with a comic that i was told was progressive when i was 15 and now im 18 and im still just hoping bc its not its just not i still see nothing but pain for people like me and it just kills all hope i have for being happy someday and not just hiding my pain
Also, seeing this makes me realize your point a little better. I’m always on the lookout for media that shows gay people who are gay and have zero problems with their gayness, too.
I have so far been pretty happy about Yuri On Ice but it’s not finished yet so can’t tell you if the positivity sticks throughout the entire series. Other than that, I… have not encountered anything that show gay folks and their community being supportive and positive and no one cares about who they love. (But I also avoid most things that claim to be LGBT positive because they usually just make me angry.)
It is progressive. Like, different stories resonate differently for different folks. It is not possible for any given work to work for everyone on this regard. Much of what he’s doing is in response to criticism of Shortpacked for doing what you asked for outright.
Progressive doesn’t just mean ‘everything gets better for us’. If you don’t see how Willis repeatedly and actually fucking behaves as though the world is better than it is, I don’t know what to tell you.
Right here you have a family values politician treating trans women who aren’t operated on as fucking women. I’m pretty sure you know how rare that is of the general population – much less the damn family values crowd.
None of this obligates you to read it or like it. If it’s too painful, c’est la vie – by all means, find something that suits you better – that doesn’t hurt. That’s as it should be. But it’s the opposite of the fault of the like, one cis, hetero, white man that actually INCLUDED us, and made us real, that real life sucks, and in a setting where real life is important, he kept that suck. At least we’re actually fucking here.
Though to be clear, putting aside that I think there’s a ton of value in this kind of story, you’re still totally right that no main character is a happy letter of the alphabet soup. The closest is Carla. The second closest is… probably actually Billie (In that she’s mostly depressed for reasons that have less than nothing to do with being bi, even though her relationship with Ruth is /also/ a stressor as much as its saving her. ) And neither of these are happy gays storylines (I’d.. I dunno, if Mary hadn’t heoretically happened to Ruth then I’d probably say that’s a happy gays storyline, in this context)
It’s not objectively a good thing that the only people who aren’t miserable through their LGBT status are Grace, Mandy, and… shoot, that drummer guy who was nailing a dude. But it’s not an objective bad one either. It really sucks that it hurts. And I do think Willis could show the queer network better, since something I’ve seen increasingly in my life is that if there’s one of us, and we’re remotely out, there’s 15 of us waiting in the wings somewhere, mostly out, and looking out for each other, at least in a low-key way. We’ve seen shades of it (The queer underground railroad that hides Becky), and given the manner in which they’re dumb, I can see Billie and Ruth avoiding it, but it really ought to be more of a thing.
There is Marcie, whose concerns are largely economic, being busy, and something that can be boiled down to ‘does she like me or not like me?’
Malaya is likewise LGBT+ and seems angst free, though whether or not she’s aware is something else.
*financial is a better word, why me, why?
Marcie is a supporting character in Sal’s plot tho.
She is an LGBT+ character who has thus far been angst free who wasn’t on your list, which is what I was getting at. Not that’s she’s a main character (though that might be changing if she starts getting more focus away from Sal while they’re fighting). In that sense, yeah, you’re right.
I mean, you do have a point. When I think about the LGBT characters in this comic (and so far I am thinking of Leslie, Carla, Ruth, Billie, Becky, Dina, and Ethan,) all of these characters have suffered specifically because of their sexuality. Most of them were horribly targeted for abuse and three of them have been in prolonged unhealthy relationships. I think it’s a fair criticism to say that in a webcomic with so many LGBT characters (which I am happy for,) it’s upsetting to see all of them fall under this category and want someone with a more pleasant, positive experience.
Actually, wouldn’t one criticize a comic where all LGBTIQ (my autocorrect actually offered this!) are happy when we all know it’s unrealistic?
I don’t see all of the characters suffering from their part of the alphabet soup – Ruth? She was traumatized by loosing her parents and being under the uncaring hand of her asshole grandfather. Yes, Mary persecuted her for her thing with Billie, but if Ruth hadn’t been so depressed and traumatized, Mary wouldn’t have know what hit her.
– Dina? Yes, nearly loosing your girlfriend to a maniac with a gun is horrible, but her problems with life come from being slightly differently wired than most people, being gay not her defining moment in life.
– Billie? Hard to say. Did she drink so much to avoid her attraction to women?
It’s Leslie, Becky and Ethan whom we know of that other people’s problems with them being gay hurt them. And they don’t hurt because they are gay but because other people react badly to it. Ethan actually is the closest to hurting because he is gay and he doesn’t want to be.
But all of them are a far cry from “the well of loneliness” kind of self-hate (which used to be practically the only book on lesbians that got reprinted for most of the 20th century).
Trigger warning: don’t read TWOL when you are depressed, the story is incredibly depressing and hopeless.
You missed my point entirely. I didn’t say every lgbt character should be happy and unaffected, only that if one writes a variety of lgbt characters, a positive, happier portrayal would be appreciated with one or two of them. And yes, Ruth and Billie absolutely count for being targeted by a homophobic hate-slinger. Also…yes, that’s the deal with suffering because you’re gay? It’s society’s reaction and oppressive rules that cause the suffering? Ethan wouldn’t even be self hating for being gay without that critical atmosphere?
Basically, while any person on the lgbt spectrum experiences oppression, everyone’s experiences are different and having someone with a positive supportive family plus a healthy relationship plus no one literally attacking them in a hate crime would probably be nice, and the kind of character crow would likely appreciate.
I see a lot of suffering in the characters as not related to their being gay/trans/… even if they do encounter bigoted assholes with different levels of aggression which doesn’t help. Your interpretation seem to be different, you seem to see these encounters as the basic reason for their unhappiness. Based on this, we have different views on what is depicted here.
I sometimes read fancy lesbian romances with nice supportive families where all difficulties stem from the characters acting very stupid. This comic makes me think much more, ask myself more how I can reach people who are far out of my comfort zone, how to get through to people whose thinking is totally out of my ken. How to make allies and be an ally.
But I do not live in the USA, I am not surrounded by family-values spouting assholes, so that’s an entirely different point of view than having to deal with such shit every day.
Dina hasn’t suffered because of her sexuality though. Most of any problems she’s had have come because she’s neurodivergent.
Dina is one half of a lesbian couple who had to deal with her girlfriend being threatened with a gun and kidnapped and she herself was called an evil seductress and had to try to fight off her girlfriends angry dad, all of this happening in the context of severe homophobia? So yes, she’s been harmed as well.
That’s… not really pertinent to dina’s story though? It kind of rolled off of her back.
IDK, I’m pretty sure that you can’t exist in America and not take shit for being queer unless you closet so heavily nobody knows.
crow, you may enjoy “Always Human”, a terribly cute and heartwarming sci-fi webcomic about a female couple, with awesome representation of other LGBT* people.
Oooooh, there is a new episode up of always human, right? They are some SERIOUSLY doofusy doofuses!
There are also some wonderful queer relationships over in questionable content.
One thing is for certain: Austen and Sunati give Becky and Dina some serious competition in the “Doofiest Doofus Couple” category. I think a tie might be declared in the end.
I am just going to take this moment to say DAMN YOU NORTON for recommending it the other day! I fell down that rabbit hole HARD.
HOW DARE YOU GIVE ME FEELINGS LIKE THAT WHO GAVE YOU THE RIGHT? SEVERAL OF THE NOISES I MADE WERE NOT HUMAN.
I think you will find the noises you made were always human!
And there is SO MUCH FEEL INDEED!!!
BBCC: Who gave me the right? Being emperor of the internet gave me the right.
Also, I wasn’t really the one giving your the FEELINGS. That honour belongs to the creator of the comic. I just pointed you and others in the directions of where FEELS and DOOFUSNESS could be found. Hardly my fault that you actually listen to anything I say.
Bagge: That was a horribly groanworthy pun! Two Imperial Internet Points awarded!
AND WHY DO YOU HAVE TO DEFUSE MY FURY AND MAKE ME LAUGH WITH STUPID ANSWERS THAT MAKE SENSE?
Because it’s the best way to reach the daily quota of all-caps posts, that’s why.
I recommend a point for BBCC for using ‘defuse’ correctly.
(Don’t get me started on ‘impact’.)
Look up Always Human. It’s a webcomic, gay, and adorable. No sexuality struggles there.
Becky is literally the only reason why i still read this comic and even then her sexuality is still so poorly handled re how her father treated her how her home town treated her like its more than “im happy” its “im happy and loved” and so far i dont think shes felt that 2nd part
I don’t feel Becky’s storyline was poorly handled at all. It was a pretty realistic portrait of how LGBT people are treated in very conservative Christian settings. Like hey, reasons I’m only out to one member of my family, who is likewise super closeted to our mutual family members and gets it.
Crow, the thing is for a story to be a story something has to go wrong.
If Becky’s father and community had accepted her from the beginning she wouldn’t be here because she never would have left her Christian Collage.
Plus seeing someone (like Becky) hit rock bottom then get up and move forward, watching as someone who lost everything slowly gains something far better than what they had before, it gives people who are at rock bottom – who are losing everything – hope that It Gets Better.
crow has a point insofar that LGBT* people can and do have perfectly human problems which do not stem from their sexuality. Those make for stories too.
Willis does show those stories though, that Marcie’s story, Danny’s story, Dina’s story, ect.
There are so many LGBT characters in this comic who have problems but their problems don’t come from being LGBT, it’s just that Becky isn’t one of those many characters.
And we know there are happy LGBT characters in happy relationships but they’re not in the spotlight because they are happy and normal, and you can make so much of a plot out of a happy-normal life. What would Willis have to show?
Even sweet fluffy stories need some drama to break them up and drama only happens if there are problems.
Sorry: -and you can only make so much of a plot-
So, we know there are happy bi people. This is /true/. And I’m not arguing it. But those characters are also /incredibly/ ancillary. They’re hard to keep in mind – and that’s important as far as someone’s reaction to the comic.
Try “Girls With Slingshots”! It was my first and is still my favorite webcomic.
Which group does Robin most offend within possible readers: politicians with knowledge or competency, voters who trust them enough to even attempt to vote, or people who aren’t perfectly straight?
It’s a tight race.
Does that first group even exist?
Many are experts at staying in office.
So this is what Robin’s like when she’s not the cardboard cutout of a senator we usually see her as.
Leslie’s face in the last panel is my face throughout this entire bar scene so far.
I was trying to think what a “bi whiskey” might be when I realized Robin didn’t actually specify how she wanted it. Straight, rocks, whatever. She’ll drink whatever catches her fancy this round.
Blended instead of single malt?
Lady Cock Loophole is my new favorite band name.
Our first single would be the obvious “Lady Boner”, followed by “XYX (Down with the Sex)”
PS I’m a trans woman, so that’s an okay joke to make
PP(enis)S I’m a trans woman, and don’t you dare steal that band name from me, that is not a joke
It would be a great band name!
Oh wow, she hasn’t admitted to herself yet that she’s not straight. As a trans person who was so deeply in denial that I was transphobic before I started to consider if I was trans, I know first-hand that when someone prods the dissonance you end up living with, it hurts a lot up until you are able to accept who you are.
Do cisgender ladies ever refer to their strap-on as a lady cock? I swear I’ve seen that used before. I mean, Robin’s reference to “cisgender males” makes it likely that she was referring to transgender women, I’m just curious.
That is a thing that has been known to occur.
Are there additional puns here about bourbon?
Straight versus On the rocks?
rocks as a pun for testes?
I find it highly implausible that any incarnation of Robin is familiar with the word “cisgender”
Sadly her particular brand of politics know enough about trans people to use them as scapegoats.
I’d blame Roz for that. She probably brought up the “loophole” in some previous argument.
…. This is the hottest non slipshine DoA comic.
Also I can’t be the only one noticing the Checkmate meme here…
4D Chess = chess, but both kings and queens are replaced with dildos
I’d say it isn’t safe to give Robin strong liquor if this is where a couple of beers takes her!
Well, yes, but Robin isn’t *safe* in any case.
or at any speed.
I love Leslie’s faces in this
So is “DoA characters that have mimed fellatio” a category that includes only Robin and Mike, or am I missing someone?
Well, if Mike’s plot goes much further he could graduate from pantomimicry.
If anything proves you’re straight, it’s really really liking sucking imaginary cocks.
Q.E.D.
That wouldn’t work for me.
That’s true. You and I will have to prove our straightness by showing our willingness to give imaginary bro-jobs. Because those things are totally not gay at all!
Come on, Robin, don’t you know how to give a fake blowjob? You’re not supposed to stick your tongue out; you’re supposed to use it to poke out your cheek.
(I was skeptical at first, this strip has totally sold me on this ship.)
“I’M THE FAMILY VALUES CANDIDATE WATCH ME HAVING SO MUCH FUN SUCKING THIS COCK IN PUBLIC”
I love you Robin never change <3 (except for all the shitty stuff. change that. but leave this <3 )
Aide: “It’s because shit like this we don’t leave her unsupervised.”
Frieda: “So it’s not because you are afraid she’ll end up in bed with a cute college teacher?”
Robin: “HOW MANY COCKS DO I HAVE TO SUCK TO CONVINCE YOU PEOPLE I’M STRAIGHT?”
Aide: “…please stop sucking cocks in public.”
ROBIN: “NEVER!”
5 minutes later: DESANTO-MANLEY ACT CREATES WORLD PEACE
Oh wow, I’m surprised Robin both knows the word cisgender and seems to be decent about trans women’s identities? This comic cracked me up.
Heh, well played, Robin.
When things got serious and uncomfortable and FEELy, she wacked things up in a way both Becky and Walky would be proud of. “Look at meeeeee sucking imaginary cocks. Look how wacky I am, no need to talk about serious stuff.”
She even got a smile out of Leslie. Well played indeed.
…Actually, I really want to see Robin and Walky interact more now.
“I’m totally not here skipping class so I can pretend that if I don’t see my bad grades they don’t exist!”
“I’m definitely not avoiding that cute teacher who keeps asking uncomfortable questions!”
They would be delightfully bad influence on each other.
Leslie’s smile… “My God it’s stupid, but dangit if she’s not adorable.”
I love the way her expression progresses in each panel, from “yeah right”, to “you’re adorable”, ending up with resignation in the last panel.
Leslie you stupid gal, don’t give in to the dark side so easily.
Seeing how Robin acted so far it’s just not worth it, but it looks that this pairing is set in stone from Shostpacked time and “must” happen here at all cost.
That her acknowledge of trans people existing is not a point to date her at all.
Them being from Shortpacked!, or even the Walkyverse isn’t a guarantee of them happening over here.
Willis has said most of the repeats are about exploring ‘missed potential’. Leslie/Robin might be an exception and happen in both, or it might end up crashing and burning.
So far pretty much every walkyverse relationship that actually happened has either been torpedoed entirely, or has gotten a bare wink. This is all setup to make the explosion that much more spectacular.
God I hope so. Leslie deserves better.
Well, the bad news here is that I didn’t say it was going to be torpedo’d quickly.
…though Willis saying “oh god I need to change some plotlines now” might mean it is. But it took a /while/ for Jason and Sal to stop being a thing.
Has Jason and Sal stopped being a thing? We haven’t seen them together in awhile, but that doesn’t mean they won’t do something dumb again.
Honestly, Jason/Sal was never really a thing in this verse. They fucked twice. That does not a relationship make.
(Thank God, because iirc those two were a hot mess in Walkyverse – you can love each other all you want, you’re still terrible for each other).
Well, I didn’t say “relationship”. 🙂
The point remains: Is their thing or whatever you want to call it actually over?
No, but Lailah did at the start of the thread. My bad for misreading your intent.
And no, no guarantees yet they won’t continue to fuck in the future if/when Sal gets horny again (or if she gets lonelier now that Marcie’s mad at her).
Yes, but I’m open to the idea I’ll be wrong. More dumbing of age could easily happen.
I’m just not getting my head around this, I mean you have someone that helps implement bills (or whatever you call them, its midnight as I post this and I’m sleepy) that makes life harder for the LGBT community, that says you should hide who you are, acts in a way that even Joe or Walky would think is over the top and Leslie hasn’t had enough of it and left?
I really hope we don’t see a re-run of the Leslie as doormat again because watching the way Robin treated was unpleasant enough in SP and in this more grounded universe it could almost start getting into the realms of an emotionally abusive relationship
Dammit, the way Robin treated Leslie I mean, that’s it I’m off to bed.
A severe crush has nothing to do with thinking.
That goes for both sides. Robin is actually risking her livelihood here. Just imagine her trying to explain a videos of her in this conversation hitting YouTube.
I’m wondering if we are going to get the “more realistic” reboot showing how ugly that type of relationship of forced closets can be. And if so, I’m really glad that Leslie is being shown with a hell of a lot more agency and snark at Robin’s closet and the crush is mutual from the get go rather than being pretended to be one-sided.
It’s a little terrifying looking back and realizing that Leslie and Robin’s relationship here is already more honest and open and healthy than they were for years in SP.
Poor Bartender doesn’t get a tag
Am I alone in not being surprised Robin is drinking a liquor many people tend to find a bit too cloyingly sweet to drink outside a cocktail?
What do -you- think she’s drinking? And Bartender, can I have one?
Just pour your drink on this shlicker, Leslie and go fucking home.
Robin is doing everything short of throwing a Monkey Master action figure at Leslie. Very weird flirting technique but Les knows what is going on. Proceed.
The video of her pantomime will be online before she gets back to her hotel.
Leslie is not happy with Robin, but damn, she’s amused.
It will not even be the most embarrassing video of her that goes up today.
I love the smile panels 2 & 4. Seems to be saying, “Are you trying to convince me or yourself?” At least that’s my view.
Yep. I don’t think she was expecting this.
Robin, having sex with a transwoman is having sex with a woman. So if you had sex with a transwoman, it would be a same sex encounter.
That is her literal point, yes.
The fact that Robin even knows the term “cisgender” and can correctly state that just because someone has a penis does not mean they are male is… way too progressive for a “family values” candidate. Roz must have more of an effect on her than anyone realizes.
Not necessarily. Politicians play to their constituency. It doesn’t necessarily reflect on their own knowledge or even personal beliefs. Remember what she was talking about before about “keeping it to yourself”.
I think it might be a little of both. Roz is likely having a real and measurable affect on Robin, moderating some of her vileness with real facts about gender and sexuality (which seeing Robin take that information and use it mostly to “win” arguments against liberals probably is part of what made her seethe against Joyce’s queer rights awakening).
But no matter what Roz does, Robin has established her political brand as appealing to a group of sex-obsessed busybodies who think that queer folks are the literal devil and so even if she figures it all out and gets all moderated, she’s going to be under intense pressure to keep publicly decrying queer folk as demons or face the electoral consequences.
This.
Welp at least she is economical. Doesn’t take much for her to get drunk XD
Pretty sure most barkeeps would recognize how drunk Robin is and cut her off (or at least start watering down her drinks).
Which is fine until you realize that this is her first drink.
Nah, she’s had one beer.
Unless she’s a Walkerton we don’t know about, I doubt she’s drunk already. The Walkertons at their worst make it to like 3 at absolute critical max.
This is by far the strongest case of denial I’ve ever seen.
Also the most amusing ^^
Have I mentioned that I’m hetrosexual today? Because I totally am.
As straight as Top Gun, this gal is.
‘i am the family values candidate! I must be straight! BEEP BOOP BOOP BEEYOOP.’
In case it’s confusing, I sometimes just post replies to several people as whole new posts, as it’s too confusing to figure out who to respond to.
So, first things first. I think Robin got all of this from Roz, and is thinking about what Roz would say to counter what Robin says. I wouldn’t even be surprised if Roz and Robin have had this conversation before, after Roz noticed Robin seeming to have a crush on a woman. (I mean, Roz only came up with setting them up because she though her sister might at least be bi.)
Second, as I’ve stated before, I was a religious conservative for at least the first two thirds of my life. I was homophobic for maybe a little less than that. And, yet, I never had any problem with trans people, and always saw them as the gender they said they were.
In fact, I thought that all gay people should go get surgery and become the other sex, so that then they wouldn’t be doing anything wrong. I thought trans people were just more honest with themselves.
It’s not like it’s in the Bible. Sure, there are scriptures against cross dressing, but nothing about what to do if you actually are a woman but look like a man, or vice versa. And absolutely no scriptures that define what makes someone a man or a woman. (And then there’s Galatians 3:28 that says that, among other things, gender doesn’t matter to God anyways.)
I bring this up to say that it’s perfectly possible to be a social conservative and think trans people are their preferred gender. It actually threw me when I learned that transphobia and homophobia worked hand in hand.
What threw ME was learning about the transphobia in the feminist community. And also the biphobia in the gay community. And the misogyny in the black community.
Basically I have no faith in humanity.
Well a “straight” bourbon wouldn’t be “on the rocks” so I smell foreshadowing. Let’s see how this goes.
Truly this is the gayest of bourbons.