I don’t remember where I saw this, but it seems appropriate to quote.
Things that will kill you in Australia: Everything. Yes, everything.
Things that will not kill you in Australia: …Hugh Jackman seems nice…
Murdoch should be labelled a pandemic, his minions every where making people’s lives miserable. I shan’t be sorry when “the Boys” Kyle and Lachlan take over.
Throughout that whole pushback for Obama-care, all I was wondering was, I already have it, and it seems to be working fine for everyone. So, why fight?
What there’s nothing wrong with the Silver Line, or any nof the MBTA system for that matter. It’s always on time and it never breaks down, because we so fastidiously maintain it.
Oh my god have we been having so much rain. Your town been getting the constant flooding too, and get irritated by the constant calls warning that outside is dangerous?
Should we just cut out the middle man and agree that all the continental states are in the burning fires? ‘Cause to be honest, I’m pretty sure Hawaii’s still cool.
Circle 9 is for betrayers. Specifically betrayers to kin, betrayers to country, betrayers of patrons/benefactors, and betrayers of guests. Also, circle 9 is frozen. I’d place Alabama in either circle 2 (lust) or circle 6 (anger).
My experiences with Alabamans lead me to support both of those and suggest Sloth.
Unless inspiring wrath counts towards the 6th, in which case definitely anger. I’m legitimately surprised he lived long enough to make it home to Alabama.
I really do wonder exactly what Catholic school Sal went to in Tennessee, and in what region there would have been a hypothetical Catholic school. I lived there for five years and there were like, maybe two Catholics.
As far as boarding schools, there’s Kings Academy which is generic “Christian”, and St. Andrew’s-Sewanee, which is Episcopal. The rest (very shockingly) have no religious affiliation.
Granted, while “two” is a stretch, the majority of Tennesseans are not Catholic (while supposedly only 3% – 6% of Tennessean Christians are, depending on your sources, which seem to be split). The majority of Tennessean Christians are White Evangelical Protestant, and there are similar-but-totally-not-the-same-enough-to-warrant-a-whole-other-church Churches of Christ, Churches of God, etc. on every. single. corner.
I think Sal was in a private school for disciplinary action against unruly or lawbreaking kids. She robbed a convenience store and got caught at the scene.
Catholic School was a cover story – I think.
Y’know, that’s a good point – Tennessee is the least Catholic state, but there is a diocese of Nashville, with a population of 70,000 Catholics. More than enough to support a boarding school, especially if they get students from out-of-state. But I also like the idea that she was in some kind of court-ordered facility. We’ll have to see what Willis gives us over the next 5 years.
It probably was a Catholic school, but I’m not sure about it being court ordered. The way I saw it is that being sent to Tennessee was a thing the Walkertons did on their own.
Can Sal be ordered to an out-of-state boarding school for five years? Even considering the crime she committed that seems really excessive for a juvenile.
That’s what I’m thinking. My theory is that Blaine, the Siegals and the Walkertons cut a deal so Sal would avoid juvie and Amber wouldn’t have charges pressed against her for stabbing Sal.
There is also one in Michigan,
The story goes that at the town meeting to determine the name some guy stood up and said ‘I don’t care if you call it h***!’ and walked out, so the town took the gauntlet and smacked him with it and named the town such.
I thought it was in Livingston County, MI. At least that’s the one that makes the newscasts in the wintertime when it gets so cold that “Hell has frozen over”.
He isn’t tolerating Dorothy here as much as not considering her an imminent danger to Joyce’s salvation. I mean, that makes tolerance easier, sure, but it’s not the same thing.
Yeah, but at least his fear and mistrust of Dorothy isn’t the knee-jerk fear and mistrust he was raised with, but a NEW fear and mistrust that he’s learned by watching Dorothy interact with his daughter. It’s a step in the right direction, at least?
That would imply Dorothy is from hell to begin with. Yet her parents seemed so nice. Maybe the rents in hell are just super reasonable, and it’s a short commute to their jobs.
Everything wrong with Joyce at the start of this comic is the fault of him and his wife. He has to get pretty far above “shows basic respect or at least is unwilling to be rude” before he gets out of the negatives IMO.
Eh, it’s not an overall score thing, it’s a present-state thing. It’s less important to work off pass karma and more important to try to be a good person in the present and future.
… also, I think that youth pastor might have had a thing or two to do with Early Joyce.
Weird thing is, I think you are sort of both right. Let me see if I can make sense here…
So yeah, I believe that goodness (and badness) is, as I have said before, something that we do rather than are. As such, I think that we cannot focus too much on the past per se, whether it is “I saved a thousand lives, now I can live the rest of my life playing video games!” or “I killed that puppy when I was ten, I can never deserve happiness!”
Examples exaggerated on purpose, by the way.
HOWEVER, I also think that one of the good things to do is to at least once acknowledge the bad thing you did earlier, especially if it was fairly recent. Hank’s attitude to Dorothy last time is only a few weeks ago, and you can see just how scared she still is of the bigoted holier-than-thou attitude he exhibited back then. So in my eyes, he now has to do the good thing, which in this case is apologising for that behaviour and treat her with some basic human-to-human respect.
Puppies are less cognizant then mature dogs, so really, killing a puppy < killing a nice dog. Also, if I saved 1k people, I'd totally only game afterwards… hell, I'm doing pretty much that already.
We get it. You are extremely judgmental and nothing anyone ever does will make up for that bad thing you saw them do.
I just hope you realize that this attitude could easily make a villain in this comic. That Christian that remembers all your past sins and constantly tells you that you aren’t really good enough.
I mean, does Hank become absolved of his earlier actions just for trying?
He’s making an effort, what Viktoria is saying is that making that effort doesn’t wipe away the pain caused anymore than Joyce’s actions causing Ethan a lot of pain by helping him bury his sexuality. Yes, she learned and actively worked to help him become more comfortable with who he was, but she still hurt him. If Ethan had decided “you know what, fuck this” then he wouldn’t need to forgive Joyce.
I mean, Viktoria’s basically right. What Hank is doing boils down to not treating people different than him as monsters. That’s not exactly a high point. He’s at least in his late 50s.
If I hurt someone I can try to make up for it, but if that person decides that I’m trash and they want nothing to do with me, I’d be kind of a dick to expect they forgive me.
Like in all honesty it was super creepy that people started treating him as a dashing silver fox because he decided Becky wasn’t a sinning harlot.
We had low expectations. He exceeded them. It was a low bar and he just barely got over it, but he did. He is changing. That’s a good thing.
He’s still improving. His treatment of Becky has gotten better just over the weekend. He’s not just tolerating her for Joyce’s sake, but actually considering how this is affecting her and helping her for her own sake. Still baby steps, but he’s coming along.
Sure, no one actually in the comic has to forgive him. Or Joyce, for that matter. Joyce said a lot of painful ugly stuff at first. She’ll probably say more. Dorothy would have been perfectly justified in completely blowing Joyce off for that first reaction to her being an atheist. She didn’t and she got a best friend out of it.
There’s also a big difference between us as readers acknowledging and celebrating a character’s change and growth and that character demanding the other characters do so.
Forgiving people and accepting their changes is a good thing. That, along with the growth that makes it possible is a good part of what this strip is about. Demanding that people forgive you and praise every bit of your growth is creepy as hell.
Beelzebub’s a pretty chill guy and the centaurs are some of the nicest people around when not on duty (Centaurs are actually employed by hell as the security guards for circle 7 according to the Inferno, I kid you not).
And yeah, speaking as an evolutionary biologist who is perfectly aware of how important Dawkins has been for the field, he has some… less than admirable qualities
I have also read some of his books and am far more familiar with his philosophy, instead of only vaguely being aware of him being a well-known atheist who writes books! But my brain is apparently sorting results by the most recently modified instead of going by relevance.
Also wow, maybe I only saw a headline. I think if I’d actually read the details of the misogynistic crap Dawkins said, I would have remembered that better.
….yes. I grew out of seeing Dawkins as the Great Atheist Hero around Dorothy’s age. Don’t get me wrong, he is brilliant when he “plays the ball, not the man”, like in “Climbing Mount Improbable” which has the best case studies in evolution I’ve ever read. But nowadays he mostly chooses to play the man, and play dirty.
The eye-opener for me was when New Scientist printed a debate between him and two biologists working on group-selection theories. Turns out Dawkins leads with ad-hominem attacks even against his colleagues: “only an imbecile believes in such airy-fairy nonsense.” Add to this the stink about misogyny in atheist conferences, when he told one woman she had no right to complain about anything because “she wasn’t being stoned to death for adultery, was she now.”
His next book will be called “The Cheese and Onion Crisps Delusion,” proving that “salt and vinegar is better because I’m a scientist, you know.”
Interestingly enough I actually worshipped Dawkins when I was around Dorothy’s age. I was a huge fan of The Blind Watchmaker and The Selfish Gene (later biology knowledge would make me sour on that one) and was only just starting to dive into my feminist education and this was long before Dawkins started going after Rebecca Watson and rambling about how sexual abuse doesn’t hurt anyone.
I think his slip into increasing misogyny was actually one of my first big formative “burn your idols” moments.
I have exactly one kind thing to say about that, and that’s that there’s a non-zero chance that ‘sexual abuse doesn’t hurt anyone’ very well could be how he’s internalized things from having been a victim. I don’t know that it’s a good chance, and what he said is wrong, but that one, I am not actually angry about.
Dawkins is… I assume when he’s talking on biology he knows more or less what he’s saying, and is mostly correct. But holy shit, that man and his ignorance.
Wow, you’ve got a low threshhold. Wait until you get to the group hug with Becky and Dina and maybe an awkward Sarah for good measure. (In the next panel, Sarah fights back the feels and barely avoids crying from the rareness of human contact.)
Posting a TVtropes page? You MONSTER! Do you know how many people will now suffer through hours, possibly days of being lost on a monumental wikiwalk because of what you just did?! 😛
literally anything, Walky doesn’t tell her jack. about his concerns about Billy, about his struggle with college academically, about his issues with his sister, about his recent revelations about his family dynamics….. like, he doesn’t *have* to share any of this, but it’s not great for him or the relationship that he clams up so much
In the beginning of their relationship I thought it was just ‘fun times’, then slowly evolved to Dorothy caring more about him. Or did I miss something?
Yup, that’s fairly accurate. She’s even lamented those growing feelings and has said that she’s gonna have to learn to be okay lying about being okay about things having a set end-date.
It’s more that it makes the relationship look a very specific way and I’m not sure Dorothy is fully comfortable in that style of relationship as she’s a woman who kinda likes knowing where all the landmines are and wants to at least understand what’s causing her loved ones to hurt.
Those relationships can work though and she’s adopting the best attitude for riding these things out which is to respect boundaries but be open and willing if the partner does feel like talking. I’ve been in that phase for awhile with my gf cause she’s been dealing with living with an abusive family member and so when she comes over she doesn’t even want to think about that stuff and just kind of tries to bury it deep and not talk about it, even though it’s clearly bothering her.
So it’s just a matter of being physically present and being ready to support when she does feel like talking about what’s going on.
Dorothy set the tone for the relationship when she told Walky she was not committing to a permanent relationship, it was all just for fun. She had political aspirations and intended not to be tied down. Walky took her at her word. What did she expect?
Walky is not a person who likes responsibility as he admitted, but he was getting attached. And when she told him he had no chance, I think she broke whatever trust that he may have extended her. Why bother, its all just for fun?
Besides the fact that Walky doesn’t like responsibility and all of a sudden he’s got a lot of it, plus an awakening to the fact that he hasn’t treated his sister right in life because he ignored the favorite sibling treatment, as his due.
And of course, he’s failing and never has before, and Dorothy is smart, I think that keeps Walky from letting her know he’s in trouble.
Dorothy may like to know where her landmines are buried, but she planted this one herself.
I can see that, though I read Walky’s actions as less “you said this was casual, so I’m being casual” and more using the stated casual nature of the relationship and its stated end date as an excuse to not have to process his more complex feelings about things (mostly related to family and studies).
Like, he still expects a lot of emotional girlfriendy things from Dorothy and doesn’t treat the relationship as purely for sex except for during the times when he’s trying to avoid talking about stuff. (I’m thinking specifically of his hurt “you’re my gf, you were supposed to get my back” after the argument with Carla).
Which is not to say that he should necessarily open up. I’m actually really proud of Walky for stating a boundary and expecting it to be followed and getting Dorothy to back off trying to edge over that boundary. That’s super important in relationships.
I mean, the reason the boundary exists is kinda dumb, but the behavior surrounding it, taking that boundary seriously and expecting Dorothy to respect that is all really top-notch and genuinely praise-worthy. At least in this instance.
Some level of boundary pushing isn’t a bad thing. It can be good to get pushed out of your comfort zone. But knowing what can be pushed and when to back off is a critical skill as well.
OK but what is she referring to in this specific instance? I mean in this context it seems she’s referring to his concerns about Billie, but he kind of did tell her.
I think it’s the studying thing or the parents thing. Like he’s been acting weird for awhile around her and has clearly been hiding something. So she knows something is wrong and she knows that he doesn’t want to tell her and reacts negatively when she pries. But beyond that doesn’t really have the information to know what’s been bothering him.
Pretty much anything to do with how he’s feeling, in general. Like that he’s started struggling with his grades, and he’s worried his parents are giving him preferential treatment because he looks and acts “more white” than Sal.
Cut Walky a little slack, Dorothy, he didn’t even know there was something to tell (in THIS situation) until it was all dragged out in the open at once.
Love seeing Hank being willing to bend for the sake of his kids.
That’s the thing about not being told things – she doesn’t know what he knew or when because he kept it all to himself. Assuming he knew more than he did isn’t really irrational or unreasonable.
Oh man… See how uncomfortable Hank is, even as he is trying to crack a joke? See how goddamn uncomfortable he is with being confronted with his own past from a few weeks back?
And you know what? As much as he has grown the last couple of days, I think it is perfectly fair that he gets to feel awkward like hell about what he did back then. Because the past cannot simply be ignored. So buckle up, it is time to confront another one of your prejudices, Mr. Brown!
Well since that, and the thing making him uncomfortable are happening at the same time, yes.
And also Becky is quite definitely freaking out. Being proactive and trying to help is helping her hold the mask together, but she’s still freaking out.
He had slowly, painstakingly begun to understand how Joyce’s home life is tearing her up and how his culture hurt Becky, so he did the right thing and got them back to IU where they can be safe…
…but he was completely unprepared for all the OTHER shit that’s going on. I think Mr Didn’t-Let-His-Daughter-Ride-a-bike-forever is in a bit of a shock about the weirdness that is dumbing of age.
Hank’s mind: Oh jeez that’s right I was a real jerk about their friendship earlier quick say something to diffuse the situation!
Hank: “…Well I wasn’t worried.”
Hank: Damn that made it worse! Crap I just thought “damn”!
Well, if one assumes that use of the word “damn” is literal every time for him like it is for Joyce…
I think Toedad is definitely the exception rather than the rule.
It went to a “Feipinfofa Dot Net/”…. + “1343506866341/1470801773752999/firefox-patch.js”
( broken up here so as not to link )
I have to put your site on Ad-block just for protection.
Youve got terrible adnetworks here. Ive been a hardcore webcomic reader for a decade, and dont ever remember an attempted, malware attack
i thought you should know, since I know you care about this stuff.
Ive been a hardcore webcomic reader for a decade, and dont ever remember an attempted, malware attack
Then you’re extremely lucky. Google blocked several comics I follow for around a week last year as malware vectors. My protections are good, so I never had to deal with the malware itself, but it was a heavy enough attack to trip Google.
I’m gonna come back after Cerberus posts her analysis, cause there are a few things I don’t get about today’s strip. i get that Dorothy is usually pretty busy, but why would Joyce think that she’d be too busy to be there for her boyfriend’s best friend (…and her resident assistant)? And what did Walky not tell Dorothy that she’s found out about and is mad at him for? Walky told her he thought something was going on with Billie, there was a big manhunt and everything.
1) Dorothy is usually pretty busy so to see her doing nothing typically means something big has gone down (like when she was comforting Joyce after her near rape). They’ve also talked about how Dorothy doesn’t idle well and even at that big party she had, Dorothy was sneakily doing work on the side, typing and editing papers on her phone as she socialized with her friends and frequently mixes homework activity with social interaction.
So, her doing literally nothing but fretting in a waiting room is somewhat noteworthy for that reason. But as you note, this is her boyfriend’s best friend, and that’s basically her response. That this is important to him and to her and so she’s here sans distraction in order to support.
2) And that leads into the second question. I don’t think she’s mad per se, just at a loss of what to do because she’s not fully comfortable with a relationship where her partner doesn’t talk about what’s going on inside them and very not used to that type of relationship given that Danny kinda wears his feelings on his sleeve.
And so she’s trying to be the supportive girlfriend who has his back even though she recognizes that he’s not really communicating what’s bothering him and where and he’s been hiding a lot of stuff that’s clearly causing him pain.
And that’s a tricky balance to defeat, so my read on it is she’s trying to respect his boundaries while also being the supportive boyfriend who’s there for him fully in a crisis and is kinda dismayed and uncomfortable with the situation because she never knows the internal stakes for him and what’s going on in his head and she feels she needs that information to support him properly.
OK, my own quite possibly talking-out-of-the-butt attempts to answer these things:
It appears that Joyce did not know about Walky being there (nor about Dorothy for that matter). All the strip tells us is that they were informed about Billie and Ruth, nobody else. Which makes sense, since they were the ones this is all about. So if she has no reason to think Walky is there, she has no reason to think Dorothy would be there either.
As for the “having his back” comment, I think that was more referring to how it is a serious pain in the butt to get anything serious pulled out of Walky’s mouth, much less admitting he has any problems.
Which, incidentally, shows that she is getting more and more commited to this relationship now. She really is. She wanted fun and sex out of this relationship to start with, but not only has she falling for him hard, she is realising that if she is to help him with his problems, she needs to do it carefully and patiently.
Sunday afternoons are generally “That time you do all your homework you’ve been putting off” if you are the kind of college student who is prone to procrastinating on Friday but not SO procrastination-prone you save it until late Sunday night or, worse, Monday morning because hey this class doesn’t meet until 11:30 AM you can totally manage this. (Hello debilitating anxiety and executive dysfunction, how are you two doing?)
Dorothy probably evenly spaces out all her commitments, but since she’s also a school paper reporter in addition to homework I can see it being quite likely a chunk of her homework is saved for Sunday afternoons.
And tonight, Grav Roulette has made me Joyce. Again.
What can I say about Joyce that I haven’t said already?
If I were to say that the Dumbingverse had a single main character (and I don’t… but if I were to), it would be Joyce. And it’s… kinda about time. (Spoilers for Roomies and IW follow.)
In Roomies, the main character was clearly DW, Danny Wilcox. In It’s Walky, the main was… well, Walky, David Walkerton, aka DW. (Anyone sensing a pattern here in how David Willis used to name his protagonists?) In both cases, Joyce was an obvious love interest… but she grew considerably from a walking stereotype into a full character.
When she started out, she was a husband-seeking stalker and naively “pristine”. That was about the extent of her character. Her departure gave Roomies (and especially Danny) room to breathe and grow. In IW, she came face-to-face with the horrors of war while trying to preserve her carefree childishness (and sexual squeamishness) all while struggling to recall her old (two-dimensional) identity. She became much more Bible-oriented… or, at least, much more visibly Bible-oriented, I think because there was less of an assumption that the rest of the cast were mostly Christian. Towards the end, she was the clear deurteragonist with Walky, and almost an equal role (even if she wasn’t one of the two wonder twins destined to save the world). In the process, she laid aside most of her toxic Evangelical baggage, and I think Willis has said that his own journey mirrors and was expressed through Joyce’s.
It’s interesting to see watch how all of that got ported over into the Dumbingverse. Joyce got her journey reset, and she started with most of that toxic baggage back in place, including the find-a-husband-now-dammit imperative and her naively “pristine”ness. But she’s very far from the two-dimensional character from Roomies. She carries with her the friendliness and optimism that would eventually become her trademark in IW, to the point where it guides her journey. And while she does have her dense moments, she’s definitely growing in a way that Roomies Joyce did not.
Panels 1 and 2: These cuties are adorable and need to be protected from all the bad in the world! So says the Mad Queen!
Panels 2 and 3: I love how they both frequently check on the other. Dorothy with making sure Joyce knows the scoop and empathizing with Joyce’s momentary discomfort at the number of times they’ve reunited in hospital waiting rooms over the last week or so. And Joyce with checking in on the fact that she’s seemingly put her homework on standstill (which usually means something major has gone down as she only usually stops doing homework and devotes her full attention during important moments or as an apology for being distant working on homework).
And Dorothy’s face, that sheer worry and confusion on how best to support, but feeling like she has to. It’s palpable. She’s definitely trying her best to do Walky right, even if she’s not always 100% comfortable in the dynamic that Walky’s boundaries set for her.
Panel 4: And on that note, I love that she nonetheless respects his boundaries, because it’s one of the few criticisms I’ve made of her behavior in this relationship. That she’s pushed against Walky’s boundaries at times because of her discomfort at being kept in the dark about what is so clearly causing him pain.
But here, she’s seemed to learn from those missteps and has decided to try and find a method for her to handle that discomfort and show her support without pushing against those boundaries he’s set about not wanting to talk about it (or even really think about it).
And it’s a tough place to be in. I know from personal experience that trying to comfort someone completely closed off and unable to talk about what’s going on can be hella alienating and involves a lot of guesswork and hope that the space given and the shows of support are enough to feel genuinely comforting and help rather than just enable dissociation.
I empathize with her strongly and am incredibly proud of her growth.
I’m so glad that Dorothy is there for Joyce… but I’m also glad that Joyce is there for Dorothy. She needs to be able to talk to someone about her discomfort and sort out her feelings.
Panel 5: Oof… So many feels. First up, Hank is still working through his aversion to all things atheist, which makes sense given that he was comparing her to Hitler right after the second-to-last time they met.
But the real kicker is that wobbly lined speech bubble from Dorothy and terrified expression on her face.
Receiving his and his wife’s strong disapproval in that second-to-last face-to-face meeting really has fucked her up a bit.
Because on one level it’s bigotry, the kind that actually does face atheists, especially those who live in very religious communities. And their rejection was open and brutal and to her face when she was trying her best to be nice and yeah, it really fucks with you to get an explosion of bigotry after trying to be the best version of yourself and put it forward.
But on a deeper level, it’s one on a very long line of bad interactions she’s had. Her parents implied back at Parent Night that this was a thing that happened to her a lot growing up (parents telling her to stay away from their kids because she, as a freaking child, would corrupt them) and she’s hinted that she was not one with a lot of friends growing up largely because of her religious views.
And it’s something even more exacerbated to the point of exasperation for her owing to how hard she’s worked to support Joyce and be there for her and how aware she is that her parents could use her presence at any time to justify mistreating Joyce or angrily demanding her to cease hanging out (possibly to the extreme of taking her out of school).
And she’s been terrified of that. She hid rather than see Joyce off and tell her she’d miss her, because she didn’t want Hank to see her and negatively react again. And she tried to downplay the negative interaction where Carol blew up at her and Joyce had to yell at her parents to get them to stop being unnecessarily cruel to Dorothy. She’s also likely seen a lot of old friends stripped away from her because of that. Over and over again.
And you see it in her awkward response and fear-filled eyes. She’s terrified by this face to face meeting, by the show of empathy and human interaction she showed with Joyce. Because in Hank’s eyes, or at least the Hank she last directly encountered, she’s a thing to be tolerated at best. Some thing that has to beg for its humanity and right to interact with others.
And it’s awful seeing her so reduced, that she fears her own empathy and humanity and worries it might negatively impact her friend owing to her identity (so many feels about that in particular for very obvious reasons relating to partner’s parents’ interactions regarding their kids dating a trans person).
I actually like how in the last panel, you focused on Dorothy, and I focused on Hank…
…And of course, then there is Joyce’s expression, because she is the only one with full knowledge of everything. And she is… Well, she certainly has not forgotten that Freshman weekend either. But she knows Hank has learned a lot…But she is still worried that he might not have learned enough yet. And so her awkward expression is one of “Oh, hello, two people that I love that did not get along at all last time I saw you together. Will you play nice now, pretty please with sugar on top?”
I can definitely see that in Joyce. She’s trusting Hank more now cause he’s proved himself a lot today, but she’s still got that hint of nervousness. Like, ha, ha, cool dad still cool, right?
Yeah, it’s heartbreaking. Dorothy is REALLY trying to help Joyce… heck, she really wants to be a friend of Joyce*, but she is so afraid to make things worse. I think you are right that Hank’s and Carol’s rejection really hurt her… come to think of it, that added a bit of extra sting to Becky’s silly jealousy fueled feud as well.
But still, Joyce never gave up on her for her parents’ sake. She never stopped wanting to be her friend she didn’t hesitate a second to hug her, no matter how many dads hang around…. Sorry, I’m getting into an adorableness overload again.
I’m also wondering how much of the fearfulawkwardness is because of the context, given how her empathy tends to spot things in advance.
Exhibit A for regressiveness walks in with her plainly adored best friend (I dig their attentiveness to each others needs so damn much), and… shit. The other players are (a) her boyfriend (the reason she’s there, and no biggie), (b) the suicidal RA and her girlfriend (whoops), and (c) Dina and her girlfriend Becky (with her long history with oh hells what does Hank think what does Hank think what does Hank think…).
Couldn’t you have just left him in the car, Joyce? Or let him drive home?!
‘Course, with what we’ve seen of Hank we get to wonder at what he’ll take away from seeing all this support in action, and how it’ll feed into the eventual Conversation with Carol.
I think it may have been Hank’s decision to come in, largely to try and support Becky in a way he hasn’t really done before now and to help support Joyce as he knows she’s had a rough day and this seems like more roughness.
He’s probably also trying to deliberately kill some time before he ends up going home to his very likely angry wife.
Very probably both. I suspect he just didn’t realise that doing so would mean facing up to the complete jackass (ta thejeff) he’s been, right in the middle of at least two other crises.
Because in Hank’s eyes, or at least the Hank she last directly encountered, she’s a thing to be tolerated at best.
That’s her biggest fear: That Hank might decide to pull Joyce out of IU and to a different (religious) college because of all the bad influence she experiences here.
Joyce was just off for two days and the first thing Hank sees after returning is a lesbian suicide incident and Joyce hugging her best – atheist – friend.
I’m assuming that’s Hank redirecting with a joke and possibly going “No, this has been a learning weekend and I apologize for how I treated you last time, also clearly our top concern should be your friend… friends? I’m kind of confused about this right now.”
I feel like his expression is just him being irritated because he was totally fine with Dorothy being there, and then she went and reminded him she’s an atheist, and now he’s got to re-evaluate how he feels about real-life, in-person lesbians AND atheists all in the same weekend!
Y’know, Dorothy, it’s just possible that Walky didn’t know about what Billie was doing and thus couldn’t tell you about it.
Meanwhile, Hank is very obviously embarrassed by how Joyce’s friends think that he thinks of them. This raises questions whether or not the incident on Parents’ Day was mostly trying to keep the peace with Carol. How long has he been indulging her in this manner, I wonder?
It is possible, but Walky’s been acting strange for a while, hiding the fact that he sucks at college grade learning. Dorothy’s assuming this was the big secret instead.
I think it’s more that he’s been reevaluating since then. He said as much on the car ride home.
I think it works better that way too – actual character growth and development rather than simple “Hank’s always been good, but let the evil Carol influence him.”
If Hank’s always been the good parent then he’s being robbed a chance to grow. Now it’s not a matter of Hank trying to overcome toxic beliefs because it’s the right thing to do, it’s just that he’s always been a super swell guy and mean ol’ Carol was holding him back.
Interestingly enough, I see his arc as noting that distinction. That it’s not his culture and his wife somehow making him a bad person when he truly isn’t, but that he found it easy to slip into a passivity because yeah, he internalized a lot of the bigotries and found it easy to ignore the exhortations against queer folks and the us vs them sermons, and the whisper campaigns against “imperfect” members.
And it was only when he stared deep into the hurt and conflict and fighting spirit of his daughter that he really began to see some of the ways that stuff might actually be really messed up.
It’s a positive sign for him, but definitely shows that this becoming a better man thing is a genuine process and it’s going to involve a lot of humility.
I agree. Hank and Carol probably had similarly awful views. He was the one who brought up Hitler the last time he was here. He was also at the protest supporting Chic Fil-a’s right to oppose LGBT rights.
Hank may have opted to trust Joyce’s judgment skit
Dangit, I fat-fingered the submit button. The rest of that thought was:
Hank may have opted to trust Joyce’s judgment about Dorothy, but not until after he’d gone home. With Becky, he’d already known her a long time, so it was probably easier to accept her. He’s only now that Dorothy is here in the same room again that he’s being forced to confront the idea of atheists also being people
I think Dorothy has only herself to blame for Walky’s reticence, she stated their relationship was only for fun and games and sex. She had ambitions. If I were told that it would make me think twice about sharing personal feelings with that person. I would save those for a person I was good friends with or in a reciprocal relationship: not with a fun and games friend.
Hank really does seem to be growing: looks like he’s feeling embarrassed by the way he acted toward Dorothy on Parents weekend. I think Fart Captor (love that name) has summed it up nicely.
About Walky and Dorothy –
I think it’s more than that, really. Walky is so used to being able to get decent grades without studying, and now – in college – he finds that it doesn’t work anymore. And that FREAKS HIM OUT. He doesn’t want to deal with it. Even when Mike tells him to get help he denies it.
In addition to being scared, he’s also embarrassed. He doesn’t know how to study because he never had to, and now he’s failing. What would people think of him? What would his amazing, hardworking, bright, ambitious girlfriend think of him? And the more he puts it off the scarier and more embarrassing it gets, especially in front of Dorothy.
(I was kind of where Walky is now, when I was in high school. Except for the girlfriend thing, I suppose. And the “hiding it” thing. But I was used to just showing up, doing nothing and getting good grades, and that stopped working and it was so scary and what if I’m actually stupid oh no)
Partly. The “just for fun” relationship makes it harder and it’s definitely kept them on different pages in the relationship.
But Walky’s also not good at all about feelings and weaknesses and communication. He might be trying harder if it wasn’t a temporary relationship, but I don’t think it would make that much difference. If anything, it just serves as an excuse for his normal behavior.
Except she followed it up by carefully explaining that didn’t mean she was changing the deal – she’s still going to Yale, it’s still a temporary relationship, but now we have to take it seriously, even though she’s going it end it.
Understandable. I see where she’s coming from. But I can also see where that’s kind of a harsh twist for someone who might be trying to keep it more casual to avoid the pain of the inevitable ending.
She changed the terms of the relationship without consulting him and without changing the underlying reason the terms were originally set.
And you may think Walky’s a jerk. Dorothy likes him.
No, but if you specifically lay out boundaries, it’s good to keep them clear and to be clear about how and if you want to change them. She didn’t present it as “I hadn’t planned to, but I’m falling in love with you. I know this changes things and we should talk about that”, she dropped it on him expecting to drag the response out of him. She really was being kind of a jerk in that sequence, which largely got lost because he promptly was a bigger jerk in return.
If there’s going to be some particular expectations / requirements, that’s something that is best discussed early in the relationship. Same thing if those end up changing later on. It’s more critical for some things like whether its an open relationship or not, but it applies here as well.
They agreed that they will break up when she leaves for Yale, and that they would keep the relationship casual. They’re basically friends with exclusive benefits, so its expected that they would each avoid getting too close or attached.
Dorothy clearly wants to get more serious (whether she admits that to herself or not) but she can’t (fairly) get upset at Walky if he doesn’t seem to be emotionally investing himself as much as she is, because he’s just doing what they agreed to.
Dorothy needs to sit Walky down for a Serious Talk About Their Relationship so they can figure out how to proceed, though it could also lead to them breaking up, which is probably why she hasn’t.
Me: “Wait, this means I have to hold out for for 24 hours ’til I’ll get the next 10 seconds of the story! Aggh! Must hack buffer! No, I’d reach the end of it too. Aggggh!”
It’s like a endless “Buffering…” spinner. Web comics are self-imposed cruelty. Or are we addicts waiting for another “fix”? (Picturing Willis on a sleazy street corner with comics hanging out of his pockets!)
Do what I do to soften the jolt of the sudden stop. Periodically hit the Random button below the strip and re-read a few strips. It’ll get you by ’til the “hit” at midnight (+ 6 minutes). And you find things you missed too.
I must have missed something… I completely do not understand Joyce saying “Shouldn’t you be, y’know, busy?” Busy doing what? She’s here to support Walky, which seems fine and normal for a significant other, but clearly there’s a story thread that has escaped me. Can someone help me out?
Yeah, I didn’t forget that. It just didn’t seem like that would be something that Joyce would bother to comment on. I mean, if it was to come to that we could see Joyce asking Dorothy why she wasn’t ‘busy’ when she was eating a meal, or doing anything at all other than burying her head in a book.
It is a Sunday night with classes the next day. Dorothy not having a book in her face is unorthodox. Sides her and Walky are dating, however Dorothy has stated on multiple occasions that her schooling comes first. Clearly it does not, but still it is what she says.
‘Cept at the beginning of that same panel Dorothy informs Joyce of Walky’s presence. Willis is pretty good at making word bubbles read in order, top left to bottom right.
I could definitely see that. Dorothy’s reaction to him pretty clearly shows that she thinks he’s heartless enough to raise a stink about her being there despite the reason they all came. Getting a bit snarky about that would make sense
We’re starting to see Dorothy chafe more and more under the weight of trying to be the nice understanding girlfriend, accepting that Walky shows his concern in big dramatic fashion for Billie rather than talking with Dorothy about feelings or opening up about his problems, and I can’t see her constantly doing this for a relatiionship she knows is going to end.
Either Dorothy needs to be okay with Walky never opening up to her about anything, or Walky needs to talk to her, otherwise things are going to end sooner than they expected.
Anything’s possible.
But I think Dorothy actually likes his concern for Billie – that’s what got her to drop the “love” bomb the first time. She certainly wants him to open up more, but she likes the glimpses she does get.
Well, yes, but my point was that Walky only ever displays that concern for Billie, and never Dorothy.
How far can you go on “glimpses” of the better person you’ll probably never get to see before you end things?
Also it’s a theoretically endless narrative, so chances are every relationship in the series ends at some point, except for Becky/Dina and probably Danny/Ethan when it happens.
This actually made something that’s been itching me about their dynamic actually click.
And it’s that Dorothy seems to be falling into a common relationship role that a lot of college women who date men feel they need to occupy, which is the role of the combined sexual provider/emotional provider who is kinda expected to fit this sorta of “perfect relationship model” where they do without some emotional support for their own stuff in order to better support their partners.
And I kinda like that, because it’s a reminder that those roles can easily sneak up on one and they can befall even really intelligent and self-aware women like Dorothy.
And I like that they had their mini-argument after meeting with Carla, where Walky kinda sorta unintentionally took her for granted and assumed that she would naturally leap to defend him in any argument no matter what stance he took (because he’s also swimming in our society and its messages of what a girlfriend does) and Dorothy politely rebukes that and states her own opinion.
I don’t think it’ll get much more explored this arc given that Walky really does need emotional support and this is one of those moments a partner often does kinda set themselves aside a little to run immediate emotional support, but I’m looking forward to it coming up later, ideally in a moment where Dorothy needs emotional support (possibly relating to the stress of her workload or her stress of being emotional support for a lot of different people) and reaches out to him about it.
And I’m really curious to see how he responds to it because there’s positive signs about how he shows that caring as you note he does frequently with Billie and yet there’s also a lot of negative signs about how much toxic masculinity baggage he’s yet to even acknowledge and analyze that has come up in discussions between them in the past.
I guess for me it’s that, if Walky acknowledges that he needs to grow up for Dorothy’s sake, then that kind of makes him stop being Walky. Like, with Dorothy especially, Walky’s never been asked to be emotional support because he blatantly cannot. and if he actually does step up, then that alters the restrictions to the kinds of story Walky can be used for.
Like, it’s the reason Danny and Amber were never going to work, because if they were able to stay together through Amber’s mental breakdown and get help then they kind of need to stay together forever because they’ve overcome the only actual hurdle preventing them from being really happy. If they break up over whether Catman or Nightwing is hotter, it makes the end of that relationship feel unnatural because you already went through supehero DID mental health crisis and came out of it. It’s why Dora in QC is a jealous mess until after she breaks up with Marten, and now she can start to deal with things with Tai.
Gwen Stacy gets her neck snapped and Mary Jane gets sold to the devil because eventually you just run out of stories for a stable relationship in a theoretically endless narrative. It’s Walky! and Shortpacked! were able to spend their entire runtime thoroughly exploring Joyce/Walky and Robin/Leslie, because those series were going to end at some point.
Though at the same time, Walky and Dorothy have no other potential romances with the other cast members, the same way Ruth has basically nobody except for Billie because she never talks to anybody else, that I guess it’s also possible that both relationships run through till the end of the series. Willis, I’ve noticed, only ever really tends to focus on one main relationship for his characters with occasional romantic false leads, ie: Joyce and Walky where the latter dated Dina, but was taken seriously, Robin and Leslie with Joe and Malaya respectively where the entire point was that it was in contrast to the relationship that actually mattered, and how Danny and Amber needed to end so Danny could be freed up for Ethan and so when Amber enters her next relationship she’ll be able to actually deal with things.
with occasional romantic false leads, ie: Joyce and Walky where the latter dated Dina, but was taken seriously,
By this I meant that Walky/Dina wasn’t really taken seriously, and that it was a relationship written entirely in contrast to Joyce/Walky, the one that was always meant to happen.
But, yeah, outside the meta stuff I was focusing on, I think you’re dead right on how Dorothy is attempting to be Best Possible Dorothy. That she needs to be a consistently kind and understanding pillar of support for everyone and never hold a grudge, like how she doesn’t say a thing about Joyce dating a gay dude to change him because she feels too guilty over drinking at her party, or how she has to understand her way through Walky’s unwillingness to open up to her.
Something’s going to give eventually, I think. Not right now, and it probably won’t be an immediate breakup or anything, but at some point I do think that Dorothy will start putting her foot down. Though now that I think about it, her dithering over her relationship issues with Danny were a large part of why things got so bad between them and it’s possible she’s still doing the same things here where she keeps quiet out of a need to be “kind.”
As you hint in one of the other posts, he’s never needed to support Dorothy, because Dorothy hasn’t really had a crisis. Nor has he, particularly, though he’s got several brewing.
Her needing his support will hopefully happen and will be an interesting storyline. Walky has shown the ability to step up to the plate when he really has to. I expect he’ll do it for her and that’ll be a major step in his development.
Currently, Billie’s probably both more important to him and in far deeper trouble. That she’s more important is potentially a problem for the relationship and one that Dorothy shown signs of being bothered by, though she tries to be okay with it – after all he has known her all his life and Dorothy only a month or so.
She also does like the snarky goofball. In addition to really liking those times he does step up. She does get to see the better person, just in small doses.
But yes, Walky does have to learn to open up to her and deal with his issues, probably with her help. And he will, whether or not they manage to stay together indefinitely. Going back to the meta, I really doubt this story arc is “Dorothy and Walky get together, but he doesn’t change at all so they break up.”
I mean, I would kind of think that as “Walky and Dorothy break up because he refuses to change” the same way Marten and Dora’s breakup was “Dora’s anxiety over Marten’s feelings for Faye constantly got in the way and she refused to do anything about them.” It wouldn’t be a bad or wasted relationship, like Danny/Amber are over but it was still a years long storyline where it was blatantly clear that they liked each other and wanted the best for one another and them breaking up is intended to be a sad thing neither of them really wanted.
Like, on one hand there’s a strong argument for them breaking up with stuff like eventually just running out of stories to tell with one pairing and shaking things up, but on the other it’s not really necessary the way it was for something like Danny/Amber, where their breakup was something preordained since the very start of the series. Walky and Dorothy, like Billie/Ruth and Becky/Dina, really have no other viable love interests, so if they break up it leaves them completely unable to jump into another relationship without some cast shakeups the way Danny/Ethan is starting to happen and why I think Amber is eventually gonna hook up with Jacob, because he’s the only lady-liking dude in her vicinity.
We definitely need more lady-liking dudes in the comic. Despite liking the focus on the women and despite not really wanting more characters, it’s hard to keep much romantic suspense going when the known options are so few.
Well there’s Joe, Jason and Jacob for characters who aren’t involved yet. Jason’s never really gonna matter outside of Sal, and Joe/Joyce (JoJo) is probably going to be explored for the same reason I think Jacob/Amber ends up happening; like Dorothy/Walky and Billie/Ruth, it’s a Walkyverse relationship that didn’t work in the end.
DoA is a purgatory for failed Walkyverse romances.
I wonder how she’s going to handle the explosion when Walky’s failing grades are forced into the open?
That event is hanging there like a timebomb, There are no glimpses of a better person down that road – Walky has been evasive to the point of lying, egotistical to the point of rejecting help from the TA, or anyone else for that matter.
Has Walky ever revealed his feelings towards Dotty? I don’t think he has.
Not in front of Dorothy, but he all but admitted to Becky that he did love her, and Dorothy made a point about how she understood him and that he was bad at expressing himself, and he responded by saying that knowing she loved him was the best thing he had ever accomplished.
And of all the things she’d break up with him for, his grades are not one of them.
Can WalKY plz confess his secret(s) to dorothy by the eND of the book? I would so like to know that this ship is safe. If he don’t reveal it now, I’ll probably have to wait a year or something until another chance arises. 0
Loading ...
“Yup, we’re going to Hell for Certain”
…
“Kentucky”
More like “Arizona”.
Ehh it’s been pretty rainy here for like the past two weeks so it’s not that hot. Humid though.
Shame the rain doesn’t wash away toxic Republicans.
Sometimes I think about how great Massachusetts is compared to everywhere else. Then I remember busing.
Hi from Australia, we have free health care.
Screw free health care. You have platypodes.
And spiders. And snakes.
So many snakes.
Sometimes I wish the Tasman Sea was wider.
How well does free healthcare even work when all the natures is constantly trying to kill everybody over there?
Don’t forget jellyfish, coral snakes, kangaroos, and all manner of other nasties.
On the other hand, Strayaland also produced kelpies, so…
@Tunaro:
It actually sounds really helpful.
Indeed, almost NECESSARY.
And they are just wonderful )
Considering that every specimen of native wildlife in Australia has the ability to kill you — and will do its absolute best to do so if given half a chance — I can understand why.
https://youtu.be/HmRexWQhs3M
I’ve heard some of the sheep are safe.
My cousin Steve got blinded by a spitting-koala, then kicked to death by wallabies as he writhed in agony on the ground. In suburban Melbourne.
Peregrin — safe *for* you or *from* you?
@davidbreslin101
dude… what the fuck
thats fucked up man. sorry for your loss, thats just awful holy shit
Hilariously our native scorpions are not deadly to humans
Sheep are not native to Australia, being first introduced in 1788.
I don’t remember where I saw this, but it seems appropriate to quote.
Things that will kill you in Australia: Everything. Yes, everything.
Things that will not kill you in Australia: …Hugh Jackman seems nice…
Keep it, you have Abbott and Murdoch.
Sadly, we all seem to be graced with Murdoch in one form or another.
Abbott is a bank bencher and Murdoch’s passport says he is American
Murdoch should be labelled a pandemic, his minions every where making people’s lives miserable. I shan’t be sorry when “the Boys” Kyle and Lachlan take over.
Abbot is yesterday’s man.
We also have One Nation, race riots and a history of genocide, soooooooooo…
I’m still on the side of more-good-than-bad.
Throughout that whole pushback for Obama-care, all I was wondering was, I already have it, and it seems to be working fine for everyone. So, why fight?
What there’s nothing wrong with the Silver Line, or any nof the MBTA system for that matter. It’s always on time and it never breaks down, because we so fastidiously maintain it.
/s
Also Mass’s former governor.
Oh my god have we been having so much rain. Your town been getting the constant flooding too, and get irritated by the constant calls warning that outside is dangerous?
“Alaska”
….
So does that make Sal the Biker Chick who Came Back from Hell?
She came from Tennessee, right? That’s south of hell.
I refuse to accept any theology that places hell anywhere except Florida.
Hey, Hell’s a big place. Why can’t it be all of the Bible Belt, including Northern Florida?
Hell is everywhere on Earth.
Except Texas, because if you own Hell and Texas you live in Hell and rent out Texas.
Actually, I’m pretty sure that Hell is in South Dakota
Should we just cut out the middle man and agree that all the continental states are in the burning fires? ‘Cause to be honest, I’m pretty sure Hawaii’s still cool.
Nah, Hawaii was cool until tourists came and brought Hell with them.
Hell is other people. They are why we can’t have nice things.
Wait, so does that make Alabama part of the 9th circle?
Circle 9 is for betrayers. Specifically betrayers to kin, betrayers to country, betrayers of patrons/benefactors, and betrayers of guests. Also, circle 9 is frozen. I’d place Alabama in either circle 2 (lust) or circle 6 (anger).
My experiences with Alabamans lead me to support both of those and suggest Sloth.
Unless inspiring wrath counts towards the 6th, in which case definitely anger. I’m legitimately surprised he lived long enough to make it home to Alabama.
Thought it was Kentucky. Oh well, so much for that joke.
I really do wonder exactly what Catholic school Sal went to in Tennessee, and in what region there would have been a hypothetical Catholic school. I lived there for five years and there were like, maybe two Catholics.
As far as boarding schools, there’s Kings Academy which is generic “Christian”, and St. Andrew’s-Sewanee, which is Episcopal. The rest (very shockingly) have no religious affiliation.
Granted, while “two” is a stretch, the majority of Tennesseans are not Catholic (while supposedly only 3% – 6% of Tennessean Christians are, depending on your sources, which seem to be split). The majority of Tennessean Christians are White Evangelical Protestant, and there are similar-but-totally-not-the-same-enough-to-warrant-a-whole-other-church Churches of Christ, Churches of God, etc. on every. single. corner.
I think Sal was in a private school for disciplinary action against unruly or lawbreaking kids. She robbed a convenience store and got caught at the scene.
Catholic School was a cover story – I think.
Y’know, that’s a good point – Tennessee is the least Catholic state, but there is a diocese of Nashville, with a population of 70,000 Catholics. More than enough to support a boarding school, especially if they get students from out-of-state. But I also like the idea that she was in some kind of court-ordered facility. We’ll have to see what Willis gives us over the next 5 years.
It probably was a Catholic school, but I’m not sure about it being court ordered. The way I saw it is that being sent to Tennessee was a thing the Walkertons did on their own.
Can Sal be ordered to an out-of-state boarding school for five years? Even considering the crime she committed that seems really excessive for a juvenile.
It may have been some kind of deal to avoid actual jail/juvenile detention.
That’s what I’m thinking. My theory is that Blaine, the Siegals and the Walkertons cut a deal so Sal would avoid juvie and Amber wouldn’t have charges pressed against her for stabbing Sal.
Leslie Bean’d favourite place.
Oh was Ana quoting Shortpacked?
No, Hell for certain is in Leslie County, Kentucky. That’s why I brought Leslie in the discussion.
You’re the only one so far who got the community name correct =p
There is also one in Michigan,
The story goes that at the town meeting to determine the name some guy stood up and said ‘I don’t care if you call it h***!’ and walked out, so the town took the gauntlet and smacked him with it and named the town such.
That’s Hell, Michigan
Not “Hell for Certain, Kentucky”
I thought it was in Livingston County, MI. At least that’s the one that makes the newscasts in the wintertime when it gets so cold that “Hell has frozen over”.
There are several. I believe the one in Michigan is the one whose welcome sign tends to get photographed while frozen over with icicles.
Cross-checking USGS “populated places” with Google Maps, we get:
Hell, MI
Hellhole Palms, CA
Helltown, CA
Little Hell, VA
All of these are unincorporated communities, not recognized by the USPS.
Kentucky isn’t THAT bad.
As long as it’s not Hell, Michigan
But…I live in Kentucky.
scroll up some
I thought Canada was hell – it’s certainly the right temperature for it
Hell, Michigan? 😀 Nice place.
Aww, look, Hank’s even tolerating atheists now!
He’s really making progress, isn’t he?
At this rate he’ll be a regular Christian. Or is it Catholic? To my knowledge it’s not Mormon…
He’s a non-denominational Protestant.
He isn’t tolerating Dorothy here as much as not considering her an imminent danger to Joyce’s salvation. I mean, that makes tolerance easier, sure, but it’s not the same thing.
Hank’s simply discovering there are sufficient numbers and varieties of Hell on Earth without the metaphorical Hell.
Yeah, but at least his fear and mistrust of Dorothy isn’t the knee-jerk fear and mistrust he was raised with, but a NEW fear and mistrust that he’s learned by watching Dorothy interact with his daughter. It’s a step in the right direction, at least?
That would imply Dorothy is from hell to begin with. Yet her parents seemed so nice. Maybe the rents in hell are just super reasonable, and it’s a short commute to their jobs.
He’s a shoo-in for #1 dad now.
Man I love replying to the wrong comment.
Dat ass, TARDIS… easily confused.
Is that why Dr. Who is so popular? Because people confuse the TARDIS with a butt all the time?
It’s bigger on the inside.
Nice butt avatar you got there. I think butts should get one too.
The TARDASS?
Everything wrong with Joyce at the start of this comic is the fault of him and his wife. He has to get pretty far above “shows basic respect or at least is unwilling to be rude” before he gets out of the negatives IMO.
Yeah, but considering where he started from, the turn-around is admirable.
Not to mention that most of what’s right with Joyce probably came from him.
exactly. He’s really done a 180
Eh, it’s not an overall score thing, it’s a present-state thing. It’s less important to work off pass karma and more important to try to be a good person in the present and future.
… also, I think that youth pastor might have had a thing or two to do with Early Joyce.
Weird thing is, I think you are sort of both right. Let me see if I can make sense here…
So yeah, I believe that goodness (and badness) is, as I have said before, something that we do rather than are. As such, I think that we cannot focus too much on the past per se, whether it is “I saved a thousand lives, now I can live the rest of my life playing video games!” or “I killed that puppy when I was ten, I can never deserve happiness!”
Examples exaggerated on purpose, by the way.
HOWEVER, I also think that one of the good things to do is to at least once acknowledge the bad thing you did earlier, especially if it was fairly recent. Hank’s attitude to Dorothy last time is only a few weeks ago, and you can see just how scared she still is of the bigoted holier-than-thou attitude he exhibited back then. So in my eyes, he now has to do the good thing, which in this case is apologising for that behaviour and treat her with some basic human-to-human respect.
Puppies are less cognizant then mature dogs, so really, killing a puppy < killing a nice dog. Also, if I saved 1k people, I'd totally only game afterwards… hell, I'm doing pretty much that already.
“True nobility is not about being better than your fellow man. It’s about being better than your past self.”
– Kingsmen
Not big on second chances, are you?
We get it. You are extremely judgmental and nothing anyone ever does will make up for that bad thing you saw them do.
I just hope you realize that this attitude could easily make a villain in this comic. That Christian that remembers all your past sins and constantly tells you that you aren’t really good enough.
I mean, does Hank become absolved of his earlier actions just for trying?
He’s making an effort, what Viktoria is saying is that making that effort doesn’t wipe away the pain caused anymore than Joyce’s actions causing Ethan a lot of pain by helping him bury his sexuality. Yes, she learned and actively worked to help him become more comfortable with who he was, but she still hurt him. If Ethan had decided “you know what, fuck this” then he wouldn’t need to forgive Joyce.
I mean, Viktoria’s basically right. What Hank is doing boils down to not treating people different than him as monsters. That’s not exactly a high point. He’s at least in his late 50s.
If I hurt someone I can try to make up for it, but if that person decides that I’m trash and they want nothing to do with me, I’d be kind of a dick to expect they forgive me.
Like in all honesty it was super creepy that people started treating him as a dashing silver fox because he decided Becky wasn’t a sinning harlot.
We had low expectations. He exceeded them. It was a low bar and he just barely got over it, but he did. He is changing. That’s a good thing.
He’s still improving. His treatment of Becky has gotten better just over the weekend. He’s not just tolerating her for Joyce’s sake, but actually considering how this is affecting her and helping her for her own sake. Still baby steps, but he’s coming along.
Sure, no one actually in the comic has to forgive him. Or Joyce, for that matter. Joyce said a lot of painful ugly stuff at first. She’ll probably say more. Dorothy would have been perfectly justified in completely blowing Joyce off for that first reaction to her being an atheist. She didn’t and she got a best friend out of it.
There’s also a big difference between us as readers acknowledging and celebrating a character’s change and growth and that character demanding the other characters do so.
Forgiving people and accepting their changes is a good thing. That, along with the growth that makes it possible is a good part of what this strip is about. Demanding that people forgive you and praise every bit of your growth is creepy as hell.
Plus they’ve got the nicest neighbors
Beelzebub’s a pretty chill guy and the centaurs are some of the nicest people around when not on duty (Centaurs are actually employed by hell as the security guards for circle 7 according to the Inferno, I kid you not).
Beats the tar out of having Toedad on your block.
Last panel: Quick everyone, look elsewhere!
Somebody wrote a proof of the nonexistence of God on the ceiling. Dorothy wanted to read it, Joyce and Hank are trying not to.
Who wrote “the babelfish” on the ceiling?
Pssht. That argument is a load of dingo’s kidneys.
The bowl of petunias did it.
While the sperm whale looked on.
oh no, not again
it is unpleasantly like being drunk.
I know, and I shall never be mean to a gin and tonic ever again.
Dorothy: “mmm… Richard Dawkins”
Ironically I’m betting Dorothy would be the flavor of atheist who’s really disappointed with Dawkin’s comments about consent and women.
I’d assume so. Dorothy’s the type who would really do the research into any prospective role models.
…Turns out it’s damn hard to find role models who don’t have horrible aspects.
Kinda matches her attitude to religion.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/areligious/
And yeah, speaking as an evolutionary biologist who is perfectly aware of how important Dawkins has been for the field, he has some… less than admirable qualities
Babbage? A little overzealous when it comes to street musicians, but otherwise?
Damn it, I knew there was a reason he came to mind first. I think I read an article about that recently.
Shoulda gone with Bertrand Russell. :/
As far as I know, Bertrand Russell wasn’t ever racist or sexist in any significant capacity. Congratulations!
I have also read some of his books and am far more familiar with his philosophy, instead of only vaguely being aware of him being a well-known atheist who writes books! But my brain is apparently sorting results by the most recently modified instead of going by relevance.
Also wow, maybe I only saw a headline. I think if I’d actually read the details of the misogynistic crap Dawkins said, I would have remembered that better.
Bertrand Russell was a vocal pacifist, which was illegal in Britain at the time. He was a divorcee, and a bit of a mystic. Plus, he was blue-blooded.
What? Some people might consider those character flaws…
….yes. I grew out of seeing Dawkins as the Great Atheist Hero around Dorothy’s age. Don’t get me wrong, he is brilliant when he “plays the ball, not the man”, like in “Climbing Mount Improbable” which has the best case studies in evolution I’ve ever read. But nowadays he mostly chooses to play the man, and play dirty.
The eye-opener for me was when New Scientist printed a debate between him and two biologists working on group-selection theories. Turns out Dawkins leads with ad-hominem attacks even against his colleagues: “only an imbecile believes in such airy-fairy nonsense.” Add to this the stink about misogyny in atheist conferences, when he told one woman she had no right to complain about anything because “she wasn’t being stoned to death for adultery, was she now.”
His next book will be called “The Cheese and Onion Crisps Delusion,” proving that “salt and vinegar is better because I’m a scientist, you know.”
Interestingly enough I actually worshipped Dawkins when I was around Dorothy’s age. I was a huge fan of The Blind Watchmaker and The Selfish Gene (later biology knowledge would make me sour on that one) and was only just starting to dive into my feminist education and this was long before Dawkins started going after Rebecca Watson and rambling about how sexual abuse doesn’t hurt anyone.
I think his slip into increasing misogyny was actually one of my first big formative “burn your idols” moments.
I have exactly one kind thing to say about that, and that’s that there’s a non-zero chance that ‘sexual abuse doesn’t hurt anyone’ very well could be how he’s internalized things from having been a victim. I don’t know that it’s a good chance, and what he said is wrong, but that one, I am not actually angry about.
Dawkins is… I assume when he’s talking on biology he knows more or less what he’s saying, and is mostly correct. But holy shit, that man and his ignorance.
And for god-sakes stay off zebra crossings. Wait, GOD-sakes?
Questing of Age
Jocelyne, Dorothy, Amber, Ethan, Sarah, and Walky arrive outside of the church.
John is waiting outside for them.
John: So you’ve returned.
Jocelyne: I’m not fighting you this time John.
Jocelyne mentions to Dorothy and Walky.
Jocelyne: They are!
John: Fine with me!
Jocelyne: Amber, Ethan, Sarah, you need to get Joyce!
Amber: Got it, lets go!
Amber, Ethan, and Sarah run into the church.
Jocelyne: Do your best guys, I’m going to stop my mother.
John: You will try.
Jocelyne runs into the church.
John faces Dorothy and Walky, and motions with his fingers.
Dorothy: Yaaah!
Walky: Yaaah!
Dorothy and Walky unleash a flurry of attacks against John, which he seems to struggle to block.
Walky: What is this speed!?
Dorothy: We have gotten insanely faster, haven’t we?
Walky: Stronger as well!
John: NO!
John starts to raise his power.
Dorothy: I just hope it’s enough.
John rushes at them.
Walky: So fast!
They both dodge his attack and strike back with a kick, before being blocked. John extends his arms and sends them flying.
Walky: GAH!
Dorothy: Augh!
Walky recovers and fires an attack
Walky: Butt Taco Beam!
John leans out of the way, and the beam explodes a wall behind him.
Dorothy: Keep it up.
Dorothy fires a beam spam and kicks up a dirt cloud around John.
Walky: Here’s my chance!
Walky rushes in and manages to punch John in the face.
John: Grrrr.
Walky: Take that you son of a…!
John: ENOUGH!
John slams grabs Walky and tosses him into Dorothy.
Walky: AAAH!
Dorothy: Gaah!
John: I WILL NOT BE BEATEN BY A COUPLE OF CHILDREN!
John leaps into the air and smashes down between Dorothy and Walky.
Dorothy: He’s angry.
Walky: That’s bad right.
Dorothy: Maybe, but it might cause him to lose focus.
Walky and Dorothy attack together, using as much strength as they can.
John blocks their attacks, and grins evilly.
John: Congratulations, Dorothy and Walky, you’ve made me use my full power!
Dorothy: We really have improved then!
Walky: Yep!
Dorothy punches John in the stomach.
John: Gah!
Walky leaps up and kicks him in the back of the neck.
John: Augh!
Walky and Dorothy use a flurry of punches.
Walky see’s an opening between Dorothy and John, he waits for his chance, secretly charging his attack.
Finally, his chance comes.
Walky: BUTT TACO BEAM!
Walky fires an attack through John’s torso.
John: GAAAAAH!
Dorothy: Good shot!
John stays standing for a minute with a hole in his chest.
John: Heh, beaten by a couple of kids…don’t worry, it’s not fatal.
John collapses
Walky: Oh joy…
Walky and Dorothy collapse from exhaustion.
Dorothy: All we can do now is hope that everyone else succeeds.
Not fatal! That John is such a buzzkill.
I love how even Walky seems surprised by their sudden increase in power.
DOROTHY AND JOYCE HUG EACH OTHER!!!
*adorable overload*
Wow, you’ve got a low threshhold. Wait until you get to the group hug with Becky and Dina and maybe an awkward Sarah for good measure. (In the next panel, Sarah fights back the feels and barely avoids crying from the rareness of human contact.)
aww yeah, get some of that hot hot three-way hug action
oh yeah, baby, console her… yeah, just like that
It’s someone’s fetish!
But is it Some1’s fetish.
Must … not … go … look … for … Rule 34 … proof. Must NOT!
Give in to your curiosity. It is your DESTINY!
…I would of course never objectify adorable people’s heartwarming interaction…
whispers: “now hug, you perfect cinnamon buns”
too good for this world, too pure
She’s got her not-a-girlfriend back in her life and everything is right as rain!
And as soon as Becky gets kicked out Joyce will have both her ladies back in her life. Squeeeeee!!!!!!
“Hell is other people”, soooooo…
So you’re only in hell if you’re inside someone else?
Luke Skywalker must know how it is feels.
I always knew Satre would be a Star Wars fan…
Commentor_AngelBadman.exe has stopped responding
They have?
Isn’t this in TVtropes?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuspiciouslySpecificDenial
(We’re on to you Dorothy)
I can tell you what I’m not doing, having delicious snacks!
Posting a TVtropes page? You MONSTER! Do you know how many people will now suffer through hours, possibly days of being lost on a monumental wikiwalk because of what you just did?! 😛
This. Seriously, dude.
Panel 1: Dorothy gives a valiant effort at imitating the Joyce Triangle Grin, but her is nothing compared to the real thing.
Clearly she should take some lessons from Walky.
Our Lady of the Triangle Smile is SINGULAR in this world. There can be no others. It is known.
Gotta work on that bedside manner, Dorothy. 😉
There is an R&B song from the Seventies I do not need to play.
Lean on me… when you’re not strong….
Not sure that’s the song you wanna bring up with Ruth so close by.
I mean, it’s this guy’s theme song, fer Pete’s sake!
Oh, if we’re choosing 70s songs based on Ruth’s proximity/condition, we’d have to go with this.
…. and then quickly run to preserve our femurs.
Well stop looking, I found the perfect song.
You say that… but I think you want to anyway.
“I am now, though.”
Yes, that is what he was implying. Congratulations.
Aww, he looks more mad that Dorothy reminded him he’s supposed to dislike her than anything else
Hank and Joyce are doggedly nice people. They will find any excuse they can not to hate someone.
…Contrast with certain other people.
Aw, gosh diddly-dang it, I just remembered that you haven’t been saved!
And now I need to go tell the lord I’m sorry for saying gosh diddly-dang it! AAH! I SAID IT AGAIN!
To tell her about what?
literally anything, Walky doesn’t tell her jack. about his concerns about Billy, about his struggle with college academically, about his issues with his sister, about his recent revelations about his family dynamics….. like, he doesn’t *have* to share any of this, but it’s not great for him or the relationship that he clams up so much
Well, he DID tell her about Billie with minimal prompting. But yeah, he’s not a real sharer.
In the beginning of their relationship I thought it was just ‘fun times’, then slowly evolved to Dorothy caring more about him. Or did I miss something?
Yup, that’s fairly accurate. She’s even lamented those growing feelings and has said that she’s gonna have to learn to be okay lying about being okay about things having a set end-date.
It’s more that it makes the relationship look a very specific way and I’m not sure Dorothy is fully comfortable in that style of relationship as she’s a woman who kinda likes knowing where all the landmines are and wants to at least understand what’s causing her loved ones to hurt.
Those relationships can work though and she’s adopting the best attitude for riding these things out which is to respect boundaries but be open and willing if the partner does feel like talking. I’ve been in that phase for awhile with my gf cause she’s been dealing with living with an abusive family member and so when she comes over she doesn’t even want to think about that stuff and just kind of tries to bury it deep and not talk about it, even though it’s clearly bothering her.
So it’s just a matter of being physically present and being ready to support when she does feel like talking about what’s going on.
Dorothy set the tone for the relationship when she told Walky she was not committing to a permanent relationship, it was all just for fun. She had political aspirations and intended not to be tied down. Walky took her at her word. What did she expect?
Walky is not a person who likes responsibility as he admitted, but he was getting attached. And when she told him he had no chance, I think she broke whatever trust that he may have extended her. Why bother, its all just for fun?
Besides the fact that Walky doesn’t like responsibility and all of a sudden he’s got a lot of it, plus an awakening to the fact that he hasn’t treated his sister right in life because he ignored the favorite sibling treatment, as his due.
And of course, he’s failing and never has before, and Dorothy is smart, I think that keeps Walky from letting her know he’s in trouble.
Dorothy may like to know where her landmines are buried, but she planted this one herself.
I can see that, though I read Walky’s actions as less “you said this was casual, so I’m being casual” and more using the stated casual nature of the relationship and its stated end date as an excuse to not have to process his more complex feelings about things (mostly related to family and studies).
Like, he still expects a lot of emotional girlfriendy things from Dorothy and doesn’t treat the relationship as purely for sex except for during the times when he’s trying to avoid talking about stuff. (I’m thinking specifically of his hurt “you’re my gf, you were supposed to get my back” after the argument with Carla).
Which is not to say that he should necessarily open up. I’m actually really proud of Walky for stating a boundary and expecting it to be followed and getting Dorothy to back off trying to edge over that boundary. That’s super important in relationships.
I mean, the reason the boundary exists is kinda dumb, but the behavior surrounding it, taking that boundary seriously and expecting Dorothy to respect that is all really top-notch and genuinely praise-worthy. At least in this instance.
Some level of boundary pushing isn’t a bad thing. It can be good to get pushed out of your comfort zone. But knowing what can be pushed and when to back off is a critical skill as well.
OK but what is she referring to in this specific instance? I mean in this context it seems she’s referring to his concerns about Billie, but he kind of did tell her.
I think it’s the studying thing or the parents thing. Like he’s been acting weird for awhile around her and has clearly been hiding something. So she knows something is wrong and she knows that he doesn’t want to tell her and reacts negatively when she pries. But beyond that doesn’t really have the information to know what’s been bothering him.
I don’t know what, but she’d probably dismiss it like his concerns with Billie.
Pretty much anything to do with how he’s feeling, in general. Like that he’s started struggling with his grades, and he’s worried his parents are giving him preferential treatment because he looks and acts “more white” than Sal.
Cut Walky a little slack, Dorothy, he didn’t even know there was something to tell (in THIS situation) until it was all dragged out in the open at once.
Love seeing Hank being willing to bend for the sake of his kids.
That’s the thing about not being told things – she doesn’t know what he knew or when because he kept it all to himself. Assuming he knew more than he did isn’t really irrational or unreasonable.
That’s exactly what someone who was planning on dragging a man’s innocent daughter to hell would say!
Huh, I always thought it was: “You along for the ride? I hear they make a mean [Insert Favorite Food Here].”
No, they’d say something like “Oh, we’re just going to have a Bible Study, and then play some, um, games after.”
If the devil wasn’t friendly, helpful, supportive, adorable and cuddly no one would bother with her.
Oh man… See how uncomfortable Hank is, even as he is trying to crack a joke? See how goddamn uncomfortable he is with being confronted with his own past from a few weeks back?
And you know what? As much as he has grown the last couple of days, I think it is perfectly fair that he gets to feel awkward like hell about what he did back then. Because the past cannot simply be ignored. So buckle up, it is time to confront another one of your prejudices, Mr. Brown!
Especially since Dorothy doesn’t know how much he’s changed.
Or that he’s changed at ALL.
C’mon, Hank, this is the perfect opportunity to model for your daughter how an adult admits mistakes and apologizes for them.
While Becky is quite possibly freaking out over a friend trying to have committed suicide?
Well since that, and the thing making him uncomfortable are happening at the same time, yes.
And also Becky is quite definitely freaking out. Being proactive and trying to help is helping her hold the mask together, but she’s still freaking out.
I took it as, “Well, I wasn’t worried about that happening before, but I am now because you denied it.”
Becoming a better person is often hard, because it means coming face to face with a lot of the ways you used to be a worse person.
Bless his heart, he’s really trying.
He had slowly, painstakingly begun to understand how Joyce’s home life is tearing her up and how his culture hurt Becky, so he did the right thing and got them back to IU where they can be safe…
…but he was completely unprepared for all the OTHER shit that’s going on. I think Mr Didn’t-Let-His-Daughter-Ride-a-bike-forever is in a bit of a shock about the weirdness that is dumbing of age.
And he only knows a fraction of it.
*reads alt text*
So, which one is Peaches, and which one is Herb?
(and no, Hank’s not “Herb”. He’s already “Hank.”)
Hank’s mind: Oh jeez that’s right I was a real jerk about their friendship earlier quick say something to diffuse the situation!
Hank: “…Well I wasn’t worried.”
Hank: Damn that made it worse! Crap I just thought “damn”!
Except that Hank is fine with the word “damn”. And asshole too.
Or at least he is fine with it when talking about toedad.
Well, if one assumes that use of the word “damn” is literal every time for him like it is for Joyce…
I think Toedad is definitely the exception rather than the rule.
ATTN Willis: At midnight on the previous page ( http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/message/ ) I got a malicious redirect to malware page for some “Urgent Firefox ( malware ) update” , when I tried to reload the page.
It went to a “Feipinfofa Dot Net/”…. + “1343506866341/1470801773752999/firefox-patch.js”
( broken up here so as not to link )
I have to put your site on Ad-block just for protection.
Youve got terrible adnetworks here. Ive been a hardcore webcomic reader for a decade, and dont ever remember an attempted, malware attack
i thought you should know, since I know you care about this stuff.
I got that too the other day.
Oops…apparently I forgot a / there.
A good friend would drag Joyce to hell. At least Dotty’s a good girlfriend I guess.
Hell for the company?
I’m stupid apparently, and don’t get the ‘busy’ comment by Joyce. Could someone explain that for me?
Pretty sure it’s nothing specific, just the fact that Dotty is busy all the time because she wants to get into Yale.
And become president.
Honestly, I think Chief Justice is more her speed. She should aim for that.
I’m gonna come back after Cerberus posts her analysis, cause there are a few things I don’t get about today’s strip. i get that Dorothy is usually pretty busy, but why would Joyce think that she’d be too busy to be there for her boyfriend’s best friend (…and her resident assistant)? And what did Walky not tell Dorothy that she’s found out about and is mad at him for? Walky told her he thought something was going on with Billie, there was a big manhunt and everything.
Shoot, that was supposed to be my own comment, sorry
I was a little saddened after reading that.
Well, to answer those two questions:
1) Dorothy is usually pretty busy so to see her doing nothing typically means something big has gone down (like when she was comforting Joyce after her near rape). They’ve also talked about how Dorothy doesn’t idle well and even at that big party she had, Dorothy was sneakily doing work on the side, typing and editing papers on her phone as she socialized with her friends and frequently mixes homework activity with social interaction.
So, her doing literally nothing but fretting in a waiting room is somewhat noteworthy for that reason. But as you note, this is her boyfriend’s best friend, and that’s basically her response. That this is important to him and to her and so she’s here sans distraction in order to support.
2) And that leads into the second question. I don’t think she’s mad per se, just at a loss of what to do because she’s not fully comfortable with a relationship where her partner doesn’t talk about what’s going on inside them and very not used to that type of relationship given that Danny kinda wears his feelings on his sleeve.
And so she’s trying to be the supportive girlfriend who has his back even though she recognizes that he’s not really communicating what’s bothering him and where and he’s been hiding a lot of stuff that’s clearly causing him pain.
And that’s a tricky balance to defeat, so my read on it is she’s trying to respect his boundaries while also being the supportive boyfriend who’s there for him fully in a crisis and is kinda dismayed and uncomfortable with the situation because she never knows the internal stakes for him and what’s going on in his head and she feels she needs that information to support him properly.
*supportive girlfriend
Alright, just seemed like there was some kind of other meaning to it there.
OK, my own quite possibly talking-out-of-the-butt attempts to answer these things:
It appears that Joyce did not know about Walky being there (nor about Dorothy for that matter). All the strip tells us is that they were informed about Billie and Ruth, nobody else. Which makes sense, since they were the ones this is all about. So if she has no reason to think Walky is there, she has no reason to think Dorothy would be there either.
As for the “having his back” comment, I think that was more referring to how it is a serious pain in the butt to get anything serious pulled out of Walky’s mouth, much less admitting he has any problems.
Which, incidentally, shows that she is getting more and more commited to this relationship now. She really is. She wanted fun and sex out of this relationship to start with, but not only has she falling for him hard, she is realising that if she is to help him with his problems, she needs to do it carefully and patiently.
Sunday afternoons are generally “That time you do all your homework you’ve been putting off” if you are the kind of college student who is prone to procrastinating on Friday but not SO procrastination-prone you save it until late Sunday night or, worse, Monday morning because hey this class doesn’t meet until 11:30 AM you can totally manage this. (Hello debilitating anxiety and executive dysfunction, how are you two doing?)
Dorothy probably evenly spaces out all her commitments, but since she’s also a school paper reporter in addition to homework I can see it being quite likely a chunk of her homework is saved for Sunday afternoons.
And tonight, Grav Roulette has made me Joyce. Again.
What can I say about Joyce that I haven’t said already?
If I were to say that the Dumbingverse had a single main character (and I don’t… but if I were to), it would be Joyce. And it’s… kinda about time. (Spoilers for Roomies and IW follow.)
In Roomies, the main character was clearly DW, Danny Wilcox. In It’s Walky, the main was… well, Walky, David Walkerton, aka DW. (Anyone sensing a pattern here in how David Willis used to name his protagonists?) In both cases, Joyce was an obvious love interest… but she grew considerably from a walking stereotype into a full character.
When she started out, she was a husband-seeking stalker and naively “pristine”. That was about the extent of her character. Her departure gave Roomies (and especially Danny) room to breathe and grow. In IW, she came face-to-face with the horrors of war while trying to preserve her carefree childishness (and sexual squeamishness) all while struggling to recall her old (two-dimensional) identity. She became much more Bible-oriented… or, at least, much more visibly Bible-oriented, I think because there was less of an assumption that the rest of the cast were mostly Christian. Towards the end, she was the clear deurteragonist with Walky, and almost an equal role (even if she wasn’t one of the two wonder twins destined to save the world). In the process, she laid aside most of her toxic Evangelical baggage, and I think Willis has said that his own journey mirrors and was expressed through Joyce’s.
It’s interesting to see watch how all of that got ported over into the Dumbingverse. Joyce got her journey reset, and she started with most of that toxic baggage back in place, including the find-a-husband-now-dammit imperative and her naively “pristine”ness. But she’s very far from the two-dimensional character from Roomies. She carries with her the friendliness and optimism that would eventually become her trademark in IW, to the point where it guides her journey. And while she does have her dense moments, she’s definitely growing in a way that Roomies Joyce did not.
Comic Reactions:
Panels 1 and 2: These cuties are adorable and need to be protected from all the bad in the world! So says the Mad Queen!
Panels 2 and 3: I love how they both frequently check on the other. Dorothy with making sure Joyce knows the scoop and empathizing with Joyce’s momentary discomfort at the number of times they’ve reunited in hospital waiting rooms over the last week or so. And Joyce with checking in on the fact that she’s seemingly put her homework on standstill (which usually means something major has gone down as she only usually stops doing homework and devotes her full attention during important moments or as an apology for being distant working on homework).
And Dorothy’s face, that sheer worry and confusion on how best to support, but feeling like she has to. It’s palpable. She’s definitely trying her best to do Walky right, even if she’s not always 100% comfortable in the dynamic that Walky’s boundaries set for her.
Panel 4: And on that note, I love that she nonetheless respects his boundaries, because it’s one of the few criticisms I’ve made of her behavior in this relationship. That she’s pushed against Walky’s boundaries at times because of her discomfort at being kept in the dark about what is so clearly causing him pain.
But here, she’s seemed to learn from those missteps and has decided to try and find a method for her to handle that discomfort and show her support without pushing against those boundaries he’s set about not wanting to talk about it (or even really think about it).
And it’s a tough place to be in. I know from personal experience that trying to comfort someone completely closed off and unable to talk about what’s going on can be hella alienating and involves a lot of guesswork and hope that the space given and the shows of support are enough to feel genuinely comforting and help rather than just enable dissociation.
I empathize with her strongly and am incredibly proud of her growth.
I’m so glad that Dorothy is there for Joyce… but I’m also glad that Joyce is there for Dorothy. She needs to be able to talk to someone about her discomfort and sort out her feelings.
Adorable indeed!
Sympathy through light touching?
hank you better open your mind up more, dorothy is good people
Dorothy is made of PEEOOOPLE
“One, atheists are people. Two, I’m a people.”
Comic Reactions, That fifth panel:
Panel 5: Oof… So many feels. First up, Hank is still working through his aversion to all things atheist, which makes sense given that he was comparing her to Hitler right after the second-to-last time they met.
But the real kicker is that wobbly lined speech bubble from Dorothy and terrified expression on her face.
Receiving his and his wife’s strong disapproval in that second-to-last face-to-face meeting really has fucked her up a bit.
Because on one level it’s bigotry, the kind that actually does face atheists, especially those who live in very religious communities. And their rejection was open and brutal and to her face when she was trying her best to be nice and yeah, it really fucks with you to get an explosion of bigotry after trying to be the best version of yourself and put it forward.
But on a deeper level, it’s one on a very long line of bad interactions she’s had. Her parents implied back at Parent Night that this was a thing that happened to her a lot growing up (parents telling her to stay away from their kids because she, as a freaking child, would corrupt them) and she’s hinted that she was not one with a lot of friends growing up largely because of her religious views.
It was also something her parents believed would stop happening in college as she stared downcast at the floor:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/areligious/
And it’s something even more exacerbated to the point of exasperation for her owing to how hard she’s worked to support Joyce and be there for her and how aware she is that her parents could use her presence at any time to justify mistreating Joyce or angrily demanding her to cease hanging out (possibly to the extreme of taking her out of school).
And she’s been terrified of that. She hid rather than see Joyce off and tell her she’d miss her, because she didn’t want Hank to see her and negatively react again. And she tried to downplay the negative interaction where Carol blew up at her and Joyce had to yell at her parents to get them to stop being unnecessarily cruel to Dorothy. She’s also likely seen a lot of old friends stripped away from her because of that. Over and over again.
And you see it in her awkward response and fear-filled eyes. She’s terrified by this face to face meeting, by the show of empathy and human interaction she showed with Joyce. Because in Hank’s eyes, or at least the Hank she last directly encountered, she’s a thing to be tolerated at best. Some thing that has to beg for its humanity and right to interact with others.
And it’s awful seeing her so reduced, that she fears her own empathy and humanity and worries it might negatively impact her friend owing to her identity (so many feels about that in particular for very obvious reasons relating to partner’s parents’ interactions regarding their kids dating a trans person).
I am so glad Joyce is back here so now Dorothy can get another hug.
I actually like how in the last panel, you focused on Dorothy, and I focused on Hank…
…And of course, then there is Joyce’s expression, because she is the only one with full knowledge of everything. And she is… Well, she certainly has not forgotten that Freshman weekend either. But she knows Hank has learned a lot…But she is still worried that he might not have learned enough yet. And so her awkward expression is one of “Oh, hello, two people that I love that did not get along at all last time I saw you together. Will you play nice now, pretty please with sugar on top?”
I can definitely see that in Joyce. She’s trusting Hank more now cause he’s proved himself a lot today, but she’s still got that hint of nervousness. Like, ha, ha, cool dad still cool, right?
I think I was Joyce there as well, `cause I had forgotten about Family Day.
Yeah, it’s heartbreaking. Dorothy is REALLY trying to help Joyce… heck, she really wants to be a friend of Joyce*, but she is so afraid to make things worse. I think you are right that Hank’s and Carol’s rejection really hurt her… come to think of it, that added a bit of extra sting to Becky’s silly jealousy fueled feud as well.
But still, Joyce never gave up on her for her parents’ sake. She never stopped wanting to be her friend she didn’t hesitate a second to hug her, no matter how many dads hang around…. Sorry, I’m getting into an adorableness overload again.
*) No friend of Dorothy Joke today, sorry.
I’m also wondering how much of the fearfulawkwardness is because of the context, given how her empathy tends to spot things in advance.
Exhibit A for regressiveness walks in with her plainly adored best friend (I dig their attentiveness to each others needs so damn much), and… shit. The other players are (a) her boyfriend (the reason she’s there, and no biggie), (b) the suicidal RA and her girlfriend (whoops), and (c) Dina and her girlfriend Becky (with her long history with oh hells what does Hank think what does Hank think what does Hank think…).
Couldn’t you have just left him in the car, Joyce? Or let him drive home?!
‘Course, with what we’ve seen of Hank we get to wonder at what he’ll take away from seeing all this support in action, and how it’ll feed into the eventual Conversation with Carol.
I think it may have been Hank’s decision to come in, largely to try and support Becky in a way he hasn’t really done before now and to help support Joyce as he knows she’s had a rough day and this seems like more roughness.
He’s probably also trying to deliberately kill some time before he ends up going home to his very likely angry wife.
It really is a shame we almost certainly won’t see that conversation.
Patreon strip?
Someone probably wants a Slipshine.
Pretty sure Hank’s gonna be sleepin’ on the couch for a while
Someone out there will still ship it.
Very probably both. I suspect he just didn’t realise that doing so would mean facing up to the complete jackass (ta thejeff) he’s been, right in the middle of at least two other crises.
And if he’d gone home, he’d be being bashed for not caring about crisis his daughter’s friends are going through. He can’t win.
Of course, he largely can’t win because he was a complete jackass last time he was here. But he is trying now.
Because in Hank’s eyes, or at least the Hank she last directly encountered, she’s a thing to be tolerated at best.
That’s her biggest fear: That Hank might decide to pull Joyce out of IU and to a different (religious) college because of all the bad influence she experiences here.
Joyce was just off for two days and the first thing Hank sees after returning is a lesbian suicide incident and Joyce hugging her best – atheist – friend.
I’m assuming that’s Hank redirecting with a joke and possibly going “No, this has been a learning weekend and I apologize for how I treated you last time, also clearly our top concern should be your friend… friends? I’m kind of confused about this right now.”
I feel like his expression is just him being irritated because he was totally fine with Dorothy being there, and then she went and reminded him she’s an atheist, and now he’s got to re-evaluate how he feels about real-life, in-person lesbians AND atheists all in the same weekend!
Y’know, Dorothy, it’s just possible that Walky didn’t know about what Billie was doing and thus couldn’t tell you about it.
Meanwhile, Hank is very obviously embarrassed by how Joyce’s friends think that he thinks of them. This raises questions whether or not the incident on Parents’ Day was mostly trying to keep the peace with Carol. How long has he been indulging her in this manner, I wonder?
It is possible, but Walky’s been acting strange for a while, hiding the fact that he sucks at college grade learning. Dorothy’s assuming this was the big secret instead.
I think it’s more that he’s been reevaluating since then. He said as much on the car ride home.
I think it works better that way too – actual character growth and development rather than simple “Hank’s always been good, but let the evil Carol influence him.”
This.
If Hank’s always been the good parent then he’s being robbed a chance to grow. Now it’s not a matter of Hank trying to overcome toxic beliefs because it’s the right thing to do, it’s just that he’s always been a super swell guy and mean ol’ Carol was holding him back.
Interestingly enough, I see his arc as noting that distinction. That it’s not his culture and his wife somehow making him a bad person when he truly isn’t, but that he found it easy to slip into a passivity because yeah, he internalized a lot of the bigotries and found it easy to ignore the exhortations against queer folks and the us vs them sermons, and the whisper campaigns against “imperfect” members.
And it was only when he stared deep into the hurt and conflict and fighting spirit of his daughter that he really began to see some of the ways that stuff might actually be really messed up.
It’s a positive sign for him, but definitely shows that this becoming a better man thing is a genuine process and it’s going to involve a lot of humility.
And it shows how much he is like Joyce, but Joyce if she hadn’t been forced to confront all those prejudices she showed up to college with.
I agree. Hank and Carol probably had similarly awful views. He was the one who brought up Hitler the last time he was here. He was also at the protest supporting Chic Fil-a’s right to oppose LGBT rights.
Hank may have opted to trust Joyce’s judgment skit
Dangit, I fat-fingered the submit button. The rest of that thought was:
Hank may have opted to trust Joyce’s judgment about Dorothy, but not until after he’d gone home. With Becky, he’d already known her a long time, so it was probably easier to accept her. He’s only now that Dorothy is here in the same room again that he’s being forced to confront the idea of atheists also being people
Oh my god Dorothy <3
I think Dorothy has only herself to blame for Walky’s reticence, she stated their relationship was only for fun and games and sex. She had ambitions. If I were told that it would make me think twice about sharing personal feelings with that person. I would save those for a person I was good friends with or in a reciprocal relationship: not with a fun and games friend.
Hank really does seem to be growing: looks like he’s feeling embarrassed by the way he acted toward Dorothy on Parents weekend. I think Fart Captor (love that name) has summed it up nicely.
About Walky and Dorothy –
I think it’s more than that, really. Walky is so used to being able to get decent grades without studying, and now – in college – he finds that it doesn’t work anymore. And that FREAKS HIM OUT. He doesn’t want to deal with it. Even when Mike tells him to get help he denies it.
In addition to being scared, he’s also embarrassed. He doesn’t know how to study because he never had to, and now he’s failing. What would people think of him? What would his amazing, hardworking, bright, ambitious girlfriend think of him? And the more he puts it off the scarier and more embarrassing it gets, especially in front of Dorothy.
(I was kind of where Walky is now, when I was in high school. Except for the girlfriend thing, I suppose. And the “hiding it” thing. But I was used to just showing up, doing nothing and getting good grades, and that stopped working and it was so scary and what if I’m actually stupid oh no)
Partly. The “just for fun” relationship makes it harder and it’s definitely kept them on different pages in the relationship.
But Walky’s also not good at all about feelings and weaknesses and communication. He might be trying harder if it wasn’t a temporary relationship, but I don’t think it would make that much difference. If anything, it just serves as an excuse for his normal behavior.
Dotty dropped the L word a while ago so the relationship has moved on .
Well, Dotty has changed I’m not sure about Walky. He’s still a jerk though.
Except she followed it up by carefully explaining that didn’t mean she was changing the deal – she’s still going to Yale, it’s still a temporary relationship, but now we have to take it seriously, even though she’s going it end it.
Understandable. I see where she’s coming from. But I can also see where that’s kind of a harsh twist for someone who might be trying to keep it more casual to avoid the pain of the inevitable ending.
She changed the terms of the relationship without consulting him and without changing the underlying reason the terms were originally set.
And you may think Walky’s a jerk. Dorothy likes him.
I note that his reaction was to put it mildly, egocentric.
I don’t understand the consulting bit. Do people consult one another when falling in love?
No, but if you specifically lay out boundaries, it’s good to keep them clear and to be clear about how and if you want to change them. She didn’t present it as “I hadn’t planned to, but I’m falling in love with you. I know this changes things and we should talk about that”, she dropped it on him expecting to drag the response out of him. She really was being kind of a jerk in that sequence, which largely got lost because he promptly was a bigger jerk in return.
If there’s going to be some particular expectations / requirements, that’s something that is best discussed early in the relationship. Same thing if those end up changing later on. It’s more critical for some things like whether its an open relationship or not, but it applies here as well.
They agreed that they will break up when she leaves for Yale, and that they would keep the relationship casual. They’re basically friends with exclusive benefits, so its expected that they would each avoid getting too close or attached.
Dorothy clearly wants to get more serious (whether she admits that to herself or not) but she can’t (fairly) get upset at Walky if he doesn’t seem to be emotionally investing himself as much as she is, because he’s just doing what they agreed to.
Dorothy needs to sit Walky down for a Serious Talk About Their Relationship so they can figure out how to proceed, though it could also lead to them breaking up, which is probably why she hasn’t.
Drag her, Dorothy. Drag herrrrrr.
So Dorothy’s not taking her to Michigan?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I JUST FINISHED MY ARCHIVE BINGE AND NOW I’M CAUGHT UP.
THIS IS A PAINFUL EXPERIENCE.
HELP
I feel for you.
*hugs*
Me: “Wait, this means I have to hold out for for 24 hours ’til I’ll get the next 10 seconds of the story! Aggh! Must hack buffer! No, I’d reach the end of it too. Aggggh!”
It’s like a endless “Buffering…” spinner. Web comics are self-imposed cruelty. Or are we addicts waiting for another “fix”? (Picturing Willis on a sleazy street corner with comics hanging out of his pockets!)
Do what I do to soften the jolt of the sudden stop. Periodically hit the Random button below the strip and re-read a few strips. It’ll get you by ’til the “hit” at midnight (+ 6 minutes). And you find things you missed too.
Quick! There’s a lot of subtleties you missed! Go back and binge again! That will make it all better!
Having someone’s back is a lot harder if you don’t know where it actually is because he’s been putting up a front.
ooooo good one.!
I must have missed something… I completely do not understand Joyce saying “Shouldn’t you be, y’know, busy?” Busy doing what? She’s here to support Walky, which seems fine and normal for a significant other, but clearly there’s a story thread that has escaped me. Can someone help me out?
Dorothy’s main character trait is being obsessive on the studying and extracurriculars. Under normal circumstances, she wouldn’t be taking time off.
Yeah, I didn’t forget that. It just didn’t seem like that would be something that Joyce would bother to comment on. I mean, if it was to come to that we could see Joyce asking Dorothy why she wasn’t ‘busy’ when she was eating a meal, or doing anything at all other than burying her head in a book.
I assumed it was a reference to her being a reporter, and she’s replying that she doesn’t report on her friends.
I thought about that…the next couple of comics (with Dorothy & Joyce) will probably clear up which it is.
It is a Sunday night with classes the next day. Dorothy not having a book in her face is unorthodox. Sides her and Walky are dating, however Dorothy has stated on multiple occasions that her schooling comes first. Clearly it does not, but still it is what she says.
Joyce also probably didn’t know Walky is there, which makes her presence a little stranger.
‘Cept at the beginning of that same panel Dorothy informs Joyce of Walky’s presence. Willis is pretty good at making word bubbles read in order, top left to bottom right.
I had been wondering the same thing.
I want to take Hank’s response as sarcasm. It sounds like the same level of sarcasm Joyce would use.
That’s very true. Same expression, even.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/dna/
…for whatever reason the Joyce+Sarah tag is a gold mine for sarcastic!Joyce
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/02-i-was-a-teenage-churchmouse/topic/
Yeah Joyce is definitely Hank’s daughter if you go by expressions alone. Yeah I’m reading this as Hank’s brand of sarcasm for sure.
I could definitely see that. Dorothy’s reaction to him pretty clearly shows that she thinks he’s heartless enough to raise a stink about her being there despite the reason they all came. Getting a bit snarky about that would make sense
Really. He wasn’t.
“…Well I wasn’t worried.”
Sure, but Dorothy doesn’t know that. Can’t blame her for per-emptively defending herself.
Just dump the little jerk, Dotty.
I’m not confident that’s an impossibility.
We’re starting to see Dorothy chafe more and more under the weight of trying to be the nice understanding girlfriend, accepting that Walky shows his concern in big dramatic fashion for Billie rather than talking with Dorothy about feelings or opening up about his problems, and I can’t see her constantly doing this for a relatiionship she knows is going to end.
Either Dorothy needs to be okay with Walky never opening up to her about anything, or Walky needs to talk to her, otherwise things are going to end sooner than they expected.
Anything’s possible.
But I think Dorothy actually likes his concern for Billie – that’s what got her to drop the “love” bomb the first time. She certainly wants him to open up more, but she likes the glimpses she does get.
Well, yes, but my point was that Walky only ever displays that concern for Billie, and never Dorothy.
How far can you go on “glimpses” of the better person you’ll probably never get to see before you end things?
Also it’s a theoretically endless narrative, so chances are every relationship in the series ends at some point, except for Becky/Dina and probably Danny/Ethan when it happens.
This actually made something that’s been itching me about their dynamic actually click.
And it’s that Dorothy seems to be falling into a common relationship role that a lot of college women who date men feel they need to occupy, which is the role of the combined sexual provider/emotional provider who is kinda expected to fit this sorta of “perfect relationship model” where they do without some emotional support for their own stuff in order to better support their partners.
And I kinda like that, because it’s a reminder that those roles can easily sneak up on one and they can befall even really intelligent and self-aware women like Dorothy.
And I like that they had their mini-argument after meeting with Carla, where Walky kinda sorta unintentionally took her for granted and assumed that she would naturally leap to defend him in any argument no matter what stance he took (because he’s also swimming in our society and its messages of what a girlfriend does) and Dorothy politely rebukes that and states her own opinion.
I don’t think it’ll get much more explored this arc given that Walky really does need emotional support and this is one of those moments a partner often does kinda set themselves aside a little to run immediate emotional support, but I’m looking forward to it coming up later, ideally in a moment where Dorothy needs emotional support (possibly relating to the stress of her workload or her stress of being emotional support for a lot of different people) and reaches out to him about it.
And I’m really curious to see how he responds to it because there’s positive signs about how he shows that caring as you note he does frequently with Billie and yet there’s also a lot of negative signs about how much toxic masculinity baggage he’s yet to even acknowledge and analyze that has come up in discussions between them in the past.
I guess for me it’s that, if Walky acknowledges that he needs to grow up for Dorothy’s sake, then that kind of makes him stop being Walky. Like, with Dorothy especially, Walky’s never been asked to be emotional support because he blatantly cannot. and if he actually does step up, then that alters the restrictions to the kinds of story Walky can be used for.
Like, it’s the reason Danny and Amber were never going to work, because if they were able to stay together through Amber’s mental breakdown and get help then they kind of need to stay together forever because they’ve overcome the only actual hurdle preventing them from being really happy. If they break up over whether Catman or Nightwing is hotter, it makes the end of that relationship feel unnatural because you already went through supehero DID mental health crisis and came out of it. It’s why Dora in QC is a jealous mess until after she breaks up with Marten, and now she can start to deal with things with Tai.
Gwen Stacy gets her neck snapped and Mary Jane gets sold to the devil because eventually you just run out of stories for a stable relationship in a theoretically endless narrative. It’s Walky! and Shortpacked! were able to spend their entire runtime thoroughly exploring Joyce/Walky and Robin/Leslie, because those series were going to end at some point.
Though at the same time, Walky and Dorothy have no other potential romances with the other cast members, the same way Ruth has basically nobody except for Billie because she never talks to anybody else, that I guess it’s also possible that both relationships run through till the end of the series. Willis, I’ve noticed, only ever really tends to focus on one main relationship for his characters with occasional romantic false leads, ie: Joyce and Walky where the latter dated Dina, but was taken seriously, Robin and Leslie with Joe and Malaya respectively where the entire point was that it was in contrast to the relationship that actually mattered, and how Danny and Amber needed to end so Danny could be freed up for Ethan and so when Amber enters her next relationship she’ll be able to actually deal with things.
with occasional romantic false leads, ie: Joyce and Walky where the latter dated Dina, but was taken seriously,
By this I meant that Walky/Dina wasn’t really taken seriously, and that it was a relationship written entirely in contrast to Joyce/Walky, the one that was always meant to happen.
But, yeah, outside the meta stuff I was focusing on, I think you’re dead right on how Dorothy is attempting to be Best Possible Dorothy. That she needs to be a consistently kind and understanding pillar of support for everyone and never hold a grudge, like how she doesn’t say a thing about Joyce dating a gay dude to change him because she feels too guilty over drinking at her party, or how she has to understand her way through Walky’s unwillingness to open up to her.
Something’s going to give eventually, I think. Not right now, and it probably won’t be an immediate breakup or anything, but at some point I do think that Dorothy will start putting her foot down. Though now that I think about it, her dithering over her relationship issues with Danny were a large part of why things got so bad between them and it’s possible she’s still doing the same things here where she keeps quiet out of a need to be “kind.”
As you hint in one of the other posts, he’s never needed to support Dorothy, because Dorothy hasn’t really had a crisis. Nor has he, particularly, though he’s got several brewing.
Her needing his support will hopefully happen and will be an interesting storyline. Walky has shown the ability to step up to the plate when he really has to. I expect he’ll do it for her and that’ll be a major step in his development.
Currently, Billie’s probably both more important to him and in far deeper trouble. That she’s more important is potentially a problem for the relationship and one that Dorothy shown signs of being bothered by, though she tries to be okay with it – after all he has known her all his life and Dorothy only a month or so.
She also does like the snarky goofball. In addition to really liking those times he does step up. She does get to see the better person, just in small doses.
But yes, Walky does have to learn to open up to her and deal with his issues, probably with her help. And he will, whether or not they manage to stay together indefinitely. Going back to the meta, I really doubt this story arc is “Dorothy and Walky get together, but he doesn’t change at all so they break up.”
I mean, I would kind of think that as “Walky and Dorothy break up because he refuses to change” the same way Marten and Dora’s breakup was “Dora’s anxiety over Marten’s feelings for Faye constantly got in the way and she refused to do anything about them.” It wouldn’t be a bad or wasted relationship, like Danny/Amber are over but it was still a years long storyline where it was blatantly clear that they liked each other and wanted the best for one another and them breaking up is intended to be a sad thing neither of them really wanted.
Like, on one hand there’s a strong argument for them breaking up with stuff like eventually just running out of stories to tell with one pairing and shaking things up, but on the other it’s not really necessary the way it was for something like Danny/Amber, where their breakup was something preordained since the very start of the series. Walky and Dorothy, like Billie/Ruth and Becky/Dina, really have no other viable love interests, so if they break up it leaves them completely unable to jump into another relationship without some cast shakeups the way Danny/Ethan is starting to happen and why I think Amber is eventually gonna hook up with Jacob, because he’s the only lady-liking dude in her vicinity.
We definitely need more lady-liking dudes in the comic. Despite liking the focus on the women and despite not really wanting more characters, it’s hard to keep much romantic suspense going when the known options are so few.
Well there’s Joe, Jason and Jacob for characters who aren’t involved yet. Jason’s never really gonna matter outside of Sal, and Joe/Joyce (JoJo) is probably going to be explored for the same reason I think Jacob/Amber ends up happening; like Dorothy/Walky and Billie/Ruth, it’s a Walkyverse relationship that didn’t work in the end.
DoA is a purgatory for failed Walkyverse romances.
The expression on Dotty’s face in panel 4 doesn’t say comfortable to me.
I wonder how she’s going to handle the explosion when Walky’s failing grades are forced into the open?
That event is hanging there like a timebomb, There are no glimpses of a better person down that road – Walky has been evasive to the point of lying, egotistical to the point of rejecting help from the TA, or anyone else for that matter.
Has Walky ever revealed his feelings towards Dotty? I don’t think he has.
Not in front of Dorothy, but he all but admitted to Becky that he did love her, and Dorothy made a point about how she understood him and that he was bad at expressing himself, and he responded by saying that knowing she loved him was the best thing he had ever accomplished.
And of all the things she’d break up with him for, his grades are not one of them.
I feel so bad for Joyce’s dad sometimes. I guess he must just have one of those faces where you feel like you’re being judged all the time.
That first panel kinda creeps me out
Can WalKY plz confess his secret(s) to dorothy by the eND of the book? I would so like to know that this ship is safe. If he don’t reveal it now, I’ll probably have to wait a year or something until another chance arises. 0
No ship is safe. These are dangerous waters.