Have to agree with Mandy on this one. IRL, we pretty much have a handle on most of the ‘natural’ recurring problems in the world (of course, the ones we don’t, are the REALLY BIG ONES). It’s human-caused problems that give us the most trouble.
For example, which would you say has been the worst problem to plague the Obama administration,
a) Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, and droughts (OCFTW), or
b) Benghazi?
Droughts and the agricultural collapse that come with them – that is, argue some people (climatologist and political theorists of climate) why Syria is at war now – not enough food.
For what it’s worth, a lot more people have died in the U.S. from flooding during Obama’s administration than died during the attack in Benghazi (see: http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/hazstats.shtml)
Benghazi has been a much greater problem politically, but that’s a different matter.
Ooh, I get it! Willis is a Finaglist. He converted to the First United Church of Finagle, whose prime tenet is that the perversity of the universe tends to the maximum.
He’s extended the doctrine to the metaverse, that’s all — the perversity of ANY universe tends to the maximum.
Great Finagle’s Feet, he’s surpassed Murphy in expressing Finagle’s truths…
There is no god but Finagle, and WILLIS is his META-Prophet!
At least in my family, children haven’t been making most of the booze since 1929. Though, for nearly a decade, they had a near monopoly on making booze.
Really, Butts? Now Willis is going to prove you wrong by writing a storyline where Riley and Howard come back and cause problems on their own, and it’s all your fault.
Well, you did ask, so…you’re wrong. Neither Walky nor Dorothy is married, so it is fornication, not adultery.* It is suggested, though, that Walky has got the details of fornication down quite well. So he may only be technically an adult, but he is an enthusiastic fornicator. (*Hair-splitting not valid in certain fundie circles in which pre-marital hanky-panky is considered cheating on your future spouse because some pastors want to accuse teenagers of adultery instead of fornication for some reason)
As a bisexual I must say I don’t think I’m half lesbian… if anything, lesbians are half bisexual! 😀
(seriously though don’t call people “half” anything, it’s not fun being on the receiving end of it)
A bi person asked me once: “Don’t you think you’re missing something by not being attracted to half the human race?”
My response: “So… you’re attracted to every single human?”
Her: “…. Oh.”
Boy, did I just SERIOUSLY misinterpret Ronnie’s statement the 1st time I read it. It’s the hazard of reading these comments before I have any caffeine coursing through me.
I read the last half of the final sentence and thought “boy that’s sad, to be bisexual but think it’s no fun to be on the receiving end from both guys and girls.”
Then the brain cells kicked in and remembered the first half of the sentence and said “no, it’s not fun being on the receiving end of being called ‘half.'”
Then the brain cells really kicked in and said “boy that was stupid, wasn’t it? Find some caffeine…”
Lesb? Ians? (Good thing we have words like “bisexual” and “cute queer lady romance” for situations just like this! I bequeath them to you, Umbrella Paint! And I hope someone bequeaths them to Joyce soon, because she’s been introduced to the concept but not the lingo. Maybe she got something from the momentous meet-n-greet at the pizza party for QUILTBAG questioning on that significant Sunday lo those many strips ago.)
I’m not sure we’ve actually seen Joyce misusing the words. She seems to either refer to the relationships themselves (“That’s their boyfriend/girlfriend) or whatever they’ve told her they identify as (Becky a lesbian, Ethan gay). If I’m forgetting an instance, feel free to correct me, but I can’t seem to recall one.
She did quite a bit of research regarding it being a sin, so she might have learned some other things as well.
Yeah the most significant misuse of lesbian for bisexual I recall in the strip itself was “sexy lesbian suicide pact” – where it was one of the bisexual girls involved misusing the term.
To be fair, Ruth hasn’t exactly put a hard label on her sexuality yet. She’s had a boyfriend, she macked on Ryan in the Walkyverse, and now she’s crawling up into Billie’s boobs so she can be safe and warm forever. Her brother also assumed she was a lesbian, and Ruth expressed that she wasn’t sure but also didn’t really care about figuring it out.
Joyce also assumed Dina was gay before Dina expressed that gender expression was probably irrelevant, and Becky chimed in that liking both was actually a thing.
What. No. No, it is not. My current partner is a man and I’m a queer woman. That does not mean that I’m in a straight relationship. A lesbian relationship is a relationship between lesbians.
Moreso she was savvy enough to know her parents don’t give a shit, and she wasn’t going to bother the Walkertons with it, because they’d just call her parents.
I get the feeling that at one point everyone starts to pretend they are mature because they feel they are suppose to even though in their heart they are never truely going to grow up.
It’s partly that. It’s also partly that when you’re treated like a kid, you act like a kid, but when you’re treated like an adult, you find that you’re actually pretty capable of adulting when you have to. And also, when I talk to teenagers or newly-minted adults about their problems, I realise that I have in fact learnt things, in the longer time I’ve been on earth, that I can use to help them. You can get wiser and more mature and not notice it, until someone who’s definitely less so appears as a contrast.
Right. They are eighteen and they are treated like kids: Rooms assigned, meals prepared, problems to be solved by RAs etc. In other countries, when you go to university, you’ve got to find a flat or flatshare for youself and then organize your life and meals on your own. Helps a lot in growing up.
I wonder. It’s a transitional phase. They also take on a lot of adulting that was previously handled by parents. Walky’s revelation that he could skip class and not get yelled at by his parents, for example.
Does not also making them find the flat and do all the meals, etc, make it harder or does it give them room to figure it out one step at a time? I wonder which system is more likely to have problems?
I found a flat (apartment) and did all my meals when I left high school! The school I went to first was a tech school, and they didn’t have dormitories. The cafeteria meals were way beyond what my budget could afford. My parents helped me buy my first car ($600), mostly to make sure I didn’t get dicked over just because I was a kid buying a car, and also gave me the first month rent and deposit on my apartment (also $600, as the rent was $300). After that, I was on my own for sorting shit out.
I ate a lot of Little Debbies and Walmart-brand Mountain Dew. :p And then I got the first cavity of my life ever, realized I couldn’t live on sugar even though it was all my Walmart paycheck would accommodate, and switched to mac & cheese. :p
I grew into one of those old timers who really, really do think too many kids don’t understand the meaning of hard work – not because school work isn’t hard (I managed to stay an honor student through four college degrees), but because having to kick your ass through hunger (I also lost a shit ton of weight that first couple years out of the house, from not being able to afford food, and my ribs were showing before my mom noticed and made me do something about it) to pay for rent AND stay on top of school made me realize what I could do, if I needed to.
My downstairs neighbors in that first apartment were drug users, and their dealer frequently blocked the only driveway while he unloaded his merchandise. I scraped the shit out of my car’s exhaust and undercarriage driving across the lawn and over the curb to go to work without having to confront him. I was parked out of our driveway when I came home from work one morning, had to park on the street for the two hours it took me to take a shower and get ready for school, and found a $70 parking ticket on my car for parking on the street in the winter. When I went to pay it, I protested it to the cop at the desk, and she said “you’ll have to take that up with your neighbors.” Lesson learned in authority figures not being there to help you out.
I had friends who were homeless while in school, because they couldn’t find rent they could afford and still afford gas to go to work. (Yes, they were working and homeless. One worked two jobs, went to school, and was homeless.) I met two girls who shared an apartment and thus afforded rent but couldn’t afford heat, so they slept at school and went home to take cold showers and change clothes. Lesson learned in being able to still push through with studies while being disadvantaged.
Between then and now, I’ve been through unstable housing, unsafe housing, bankruptcy, being without reliable transportation, and having a kid. We had our kid while things were going good, and as per usual, everything shit the bed at once, at the same time our rent was jacked up, and now we’re living with my husband’s parents because we can’t afford anything but the token rent we’re giving them each month. Lesson learned in life.
I know how kids get wound up about any one of those things. It really fucking hurts the first time you’re slapped in the face with it. I imagine it would have hurt worse if I had made it through my 20s without any hardship and then been smacked with it when I left school with a shiny, high-priced degree and no job. I don’t know if that makes it better or worse. Maybe it’s worse, because there was a longer period of expectation, plus stability through the bulk of their formative years? Maybe it’s harder to adapt to change and instability if you don’t have to confront it until you’re nearing that so-called “peak” of maturity in your mid-late 20s, when we’re supposed to neurologically be “adults”?
I don’t know. I’m a fan of a more stepped transition period rather than our current staggered one (raise the age of majority to 20, lower the drinking age to 20, raise the full driver’s license age to 20) that adds additional training in high school for driving, managing finances (household ones, including doing personal taxes, not bullshit econ classes), understanding rental agreements, etc. Instead of “first year experience” courses at public colleges and universities, I would continue on from the high school courses with business management, loan management and purchasing long-term items like houses and new cars. Public schools at both the high school and university level would have health and human performance classes instead of some generic “phy ed,” and both would be taught from an equality-based standard that’s consistent with contemporary understanding of the science of the human body AND non-discrimination legislation.
I suspect basically none of my ideas will ever be put into practice, between the schools protesting they don’t have the funding for it and the parents protesting that it’s none of the school’s business/responsibility to teach those things and leave their precious snowflakes alone. :p Which dumps us back on our current set of problems.
A lot of that sounds pretty rough. Congratulations on making it through.
But it’s anecdotal evidence at best. I’d want to see numbers. I know there’s a lot of evidence that hunger and lack of sleep and other stressors directly impact performance in school. I wonder how many people in that situation wind up failing out because they can’t handle it all at once who would have been okay facing those hurdles one at a time.
The idea that more homelessness among college kids is good because it makes them learn lessons about unsafe housing and facing hardships strikes me as insane. We know damn well that homelessness at a younger age is a set up for failure, even if some people manage to tough it out and make it through. I’d be shocked if the same isn’t true for college age kids.
Plenty do! The homeless students I knew seriously struggled, and one gave up on getting his full degree. My issues contributed to me having to take Accounting twice to pass it during my first degree. (Math is not my strong suit when I’m tired, and wrangling a computer program to do money math turned out to be even less so.)
I’d like to see the numbers, too! If anything, I suspect it would point to the need for full community support, not just getting more dorms built or offering more loans for housing/food/counseling/etc. Homelessness stems from a lot of factors, and “affordable housing” is just one of them. Should a college student be sleeping in his car in the Walmart parking lot, or (literally) in a van down by the river? No. But should an adult, a college grad, or a veteran be living in those situations? No. And the same struggles often apply to all of them. For some, a hand up into new housing helps; for many, it does not, and they face persistent trouble with employment and housing, because they have many other issues besides initial financial trouble going on.
I don’t think every college student should have to experience homelessness, but I do think they need to learn that the things they’re enjoying in a dorm are serious privileges. Instead of hiring janitorial staff, dorms should be on a rotating duty policy, so the students have to clean up after themselves (and yes, that means Joyce would have to clean up hairballs in the shower at some point). Burned macaroni at 3 AM means the student responsible needs to talk to the fire department, not the building manager. Instead of reminder after reminder after reminder about work study opportunities, the school needs to post them in one community place and teach the students to go there to find the posting and go through a proper application process for the job.
College should be about walking them through the process of becoming a knowledgeable, competent adult. Right now, a college degree is worth jack and shit without two to five years of experience along with it, because employers think students come out of college knowing “nothing.” The two to four years you put into your degree doesn’t count, because it wasn’t in the “real world.” And, to an extent, I understand their frustration – college students regularly get second chances, “late points,” swapped assignments and other aids they would not get in the “real world.” Employers, by and large, want the obedient, quiet workers K-12s try to turn out. Universities try to turn out independent thinkers. We spend 13 years teaching kids “do as I say, and do it this way, and it’s right.” Then we spend another two to four years teaching them, “We’re going to hold your hand, but we want you to do things your way and find the best answer for you.” Then we boot them out the door to a culture that says, “Nobody’s fucking holding your hand, shut up and get to work. Oh, don’t have a job? GET A JOB, you fucking loser.” College is unfortunately the only place where we can reasonably expect to teach them to endure the harshness of the post-college world while still getting them the knowledge and experience high school didn’t provide. It’s a shitty situation for colleges to be in, but until something changes in the larger culture, that’s what we’re stuck with.
Plus after a year or so of dorm life, some students decide to move into apartments with roommates or their boyfriend or girlfriend anyway–often it’s cheaper, for one thing. Then there are those who still live with their parents and go to a nearby college. So it’s not all dorms all the way through college, even in the US.
And also right the constant adversarial attitude will cause more problems than it will solve. Though it’s nice to see Joyce is aware she’s overcompensating.
But she’s been put in a position of responsibility. In a way, Walky’s right. He did the right thing when he tried to help Billie before and it backfired because Ruth was screwing up her job.
I’ve got a lot of sympathy for why she was doing so, but it’s a little unreasonable to expect Walky to see that.
To be fair to Ruth, she isn’t really an adult. Heck as weird as this is to me, I am older than her (when did this happen?) and still shouldn’t be trusted with a pet hamster.
Uuummm… who gets to shatter that little world view of Walky’s? Dorothy, Joyce, or Hank? Oh who am I kidding it will be Mike in order to get that panel time.
I predict it’s going to end up with him having to choose which side to come down on and realizing that Sal is right about a lot of shit and then going all toxic masculinity about everything and doing a lot of splash damage in the process. Because Walky.
Hell, Sal is the one that’s actually gotten him to the step of lying in bed actually thinking through stuff and reassessing his rosy memories of the past, so if there’s anyone who’s gonna break all the way through to him, it’s definitely going to be her and he’s definitely going to flail and sputter all the way to self-awareness when it all crashes down for him.
Because that’s who Walky is now and thus that’s the main root for him to get to maturity and being the type of man-child people don’t passively despise because of all their displaced toxicity.
“Adults shouldn’t be the source of problems” me thinks he means more ‘adults’ than just Ruth. Specifically, his parents. I can’t help but kind of enjoy his feelings here. There IS nuance, especially from Ruth’s end, but seeing Walky like this? It’s nice! He really does care for Billie.
His parents. Billie’s parents. Hell, Ruth’s grandfather, though he doesn’t know that.
The adults he referring to here and that he’s upset with and who actually laid a lot of the seeds of Billie’s suffering (and Sal’s and Ruth’s) are a hell of a lot older than Ruth.
Very true! Even though Ruth is the ‘easy’ target for him right now, Ruth really is only older than them by a year. Walky himself bought pajama jeans on a whim earlier in the comic. Perhaps as an RA, it is Ruth’s job to help Billie (my own RAs didn’t do much for me, and her job would also entail not dating Billie but again, nuance. Things get complex.) but honestly Ruth is ill prepared. Just as Carla was. I don’t think very many people, no matter the age, are prepared to help those with depression and suicidal thoughts. Mistakes WILL be made, and I say this as a Psychology graduate who struggles to support friends with depression.
It really is sad how most parents are the source of their children’s pain. Billie’s, Walky and Sal’s, Becky’s dad, Amber’s dad, Ruth’s grandpa, Joyce’s parents (even the well-meaning Hank)…
My mistake, sorry! I meant it more to point out how Walky is a bit impulsive. A year’s difference won’t change that side of him too much I think, like he won’t suddenly be totally mature and wise. But, you’re right, Mike technically bought those pants.
I don’t know. I seem to remember that the Boomers blamed their parents for the state of the world they were rebelling against, back in the 60s and 70s. They certainly weren’t blaming the Xers yet.
Maybe it’s that every generation blames their elders when they’re young and the next generations once they’re not. 🙂
No. Prior generations have the weight of social institutions behind them fully – frequently, actually really conceptualizing blame for most things isn’t actually possible. Most people stop at “that’s the way things are” when blame could nominally be applied up. It takes far more than that.
Shoot, the two best known causes are civil rights (Where people generally blamed a more-distant nebulous past, because it was more comfortable, with constant pleas to understand the prior folks), and the anti-war movement (Where even their parents unequivocally /being/ the reason they had all those wars was insufficient for them to really talk about that). Rather than operationalizing things as ‘our parents fucked everything up”, they’d be saying “the system” had.
Ruth is also an easy target because:
1, she has no direct authority over him – thus he risks nothing by challenging or being perceived to challenge her authority.
2, she is a bisexual woman, thus cultural bias says she’s unfit for authority anyway – he’s primed to look for faults in her performance (and unfairly portion blame onto her plate – yes she is somewhat to blame for the situation, but so are Billie’s parents, Walky’s parents, and “Sir”)
3, as you pointed out, Doopyboop, she’s a young adult. Thus social ableism says she’s still basically a child who so happens to be of legal age, and obviously wasn’t ready for the responsibility.
4, Walk does not know her from Adam. Generally it’s easier to see the faults in people you’re not attached to – he’s more likely to make excuses for his and Billie’s parents.
Interestingly enough, we get the origins of why he’s assuming she caused the depressive episode because she drops some hints that basically a breakup has occurred and that things might be tied to that.
And we also get that he was kinda ready to blame her for the beginning. Like, she did not say in any way she’d handle it. She said she wouldn’t handle it and then he went off on her about how unfair it was that he’d have to actually have emotional conversations with loved ones and show them emotional support in touchy-feely emotion ways (no, literally, he complains about emotions during his appeal to Ruth and says he doesn’t like feeling them or doing much with them) and straight up accused her of not doing her job which he decided included fixing her charges even if she recognized that her presence might not necessarily be healing for the person involved (or that she had lingering break-up stuff that would make it potentially ugly).
Hell, Ruth only promises that she’ll talk to Billie and pretty much as a “hey, all right, go off to class, I’ll have a word (with the subtext of: even though I have so many misgivings because this is a former lover who lied to my face and broke my heart and I’m really not the person for the job)”, not as a promise that she’ll magically make Billie better and thus save Walky from the hard work of being emotional support.
And that definitely makes his blame somewhat… unfortunate, because he’s mostly mad that he didn’t actually just get to dump the hard work of emotional support on someone else and walk away from having to deal with feelings.
And as ischemgeek notes, Ruth makes a good scapegoat for those feelings and the having of them, because she’s in power just enough to self-justify but also socially marginalized and powerless in enough ways as to be a safe power to be angry and frustrated at.
Nah, I love Mike, too. I just want to take him under my wing and be like, “Okay, your troll level is good, you’re on a steady path right now and not much has backfired on you. But here’s a word of experience: there are bigger trolls out there, and it’s only funny until you meet one of them. Let’s get you on track to up your troll ante.”
Which is troll speak for “this is going to be fun until you’re an actual adult and realize that trolling it SO goddamned stupid.”
Don’t try to stop the trolls, people! Just guide them in the direction of the bigger trolls, until they meet a legit asshole. It totally works to stop trollish behavior in most of them. (And then one runs for President and throws everything off, but right now I think Dorothy and Roz are the only students really paying attention to politics in the DoA-verse.)
Yup, Ruth basically enabled some of her more self-destructive coping mechanisms, but she’s been depressed for a long while now, possibly since or even during high school.
There is no real right choice, especially with regards to Ruth. For insistence, while I feel bad for Ruth and hope she deals with her depression, I still have to acknowledged that she’s an asshole who tosses peoples belongings out of windows.
I think it’s rarely clear (or even all that relevant) who is the “right” choice. I think of this comic as a portrait of complex people, not like a fable with right choices and wrong choices and a moral at the end. (Exception: some characters are presented as unambiguously wrong, such as Blaine, Mary, and Ross.)
Just take the position that everyone here is a fairly decent person that can at times screw up and be insensitive, with varying degrees of likelihood, and then support them all despite their foibles.
I don’t think I can take that position except in very limited contexts of “here” (such as “the people in today’s comic”). There’s ye olde rapist and Blaine, for a start, neither of whom I’d ever class as “fairly decent”.
I don’t think it’s quite that black and white. Like Walky is making good points and bad. Ruth is sympathetic and not. Joyce is naive and also rising out of that naivety with good self-awareness.
I see this strip as one of the grayer ones really.
Hank’s looking on, thinking, “Okay, maybe my little girl is going to Hell with her atheist girlfriend, but at least she isn’t dating that idiot. Could you imagine having him for a son-in-law? What a stupid world that would be.”
Amber, Ethan, and Sarah run into the church, where they’re surprised to find the place empty.
Amber: Shouldn’t there be guards or something?
Ethan: Lets just keep moving.
They run down the stairs and enter the church basement (I really hope that Willis’ church had a basement)
The room is dark, with a light shining on a chained Joyce, Becky and Dina.
Joyce raises her head.
Joyce: Sarah, you have to get out of here.
Sarah: Not without you guys!
Joyce: You can’t begin to imagine the amount of power that she’s achieved!
Ethan: Who?
Mary steps out of the shadows.
Amber: Mary!
Ethan: We’ve gotten a lot stronger, we can take her!
Mary: Can you know.
Amber rushes at Mary and tries to kick her in the neck. Mary dodges and sends Amber flying across the room.
Sarah pulls out Other Jacob 2 and slashes at Mary several times. Mary bobs and weaves, evading the attacks.
Ethan pulls out his Windblades and tries stabbing at Mary. Mary grabs his arm and tosses him into the wall.
Ethan: Ugh.
Amber: She is stronger! we’ll have to work together.
Sarah: I’ll hold her front, you guys take her from behind
Sarah rushes at Mary and slashes at her. Mary dodges the attack, turns around quickly, and punches Amber in the stomach.
Ethan attacks her side, managing to get a hit in.
Mary: heh, good shot.
Amber: Why are you helping them Mary, what did they promise you?
Mary: A chance, to prove my true strength again!
Mary forms an energy ball in her hand and tosses it at Amber, who leaps out of the way.
An explosion goes of behind Amber.
Ethan jumps up and unleashes a series of attacks against Mary, Mary dodges while building up energy in her hands. Finally, Mary grabs him with both hands.
Ethan: Shit!
Before Mary can use the energy, Sarah slams her in the face with Other Jacob 2, sending her flying into the wall.
Sarah: Ethan grab Joyce and Becky and run.
Ethan: What about you guys?
Sarah: I can carry Dina.
Suddenly the ceiling starts to creak.
Mary gets back on her feet, and starts to build energy again.
Amber: Mary, you may want to look up.
Mary looks up to see the entire ceiling collapse as Carol and Jocelyn smash through the floor above.
Pretty proud of Joyce for openly admitting to her earlier bigotry, and don’t you worry, girl–you’ll figure out who you should and shouldn’t ship one day. Maybe even have an OTP!
Yeah, that’s what I’m getting from this. This is more about Walky venting fear and frustration in a safe space than him attempting a nuanced analysis of Billie’s current predicament.
I mean, there was nothing in his interaction with Ruth and Billie who said anything else than Full Support and Freaking the Fuck Out Over Here.
Definitely! The fact that he wasn’t a dick to Ruth and Billie’s face is really key and honestly kind of a major character growth moment for him. I mean, we just had a mini-arc with Carla where we saw how naturally being a dismissive jerk comes to him, so for him to possess the self-awareness to self-censor in important ways when trying to comfort Billie is actually somewhat impressive.
Amazi-girl Movie (Sneak peek) – Sal’s vendetta trailer
Fade in.
A motorcycle parks outside a slummy bar. Inside the door burst open as a slender woman with void black hair walks in. the patrons, everything from low life to high roller watch as she walks to the bar and removes her helmet.
Bar tender: What are you having?
Sal: vodka, straight, with a cherry.
The bar tender sits her drink in front of her and lights her cigarette as she puts it to her lips.
Bar tender: anything else?
Sal: No. (Her tone is harsh yet thanking.)
A half-drunk biker walks over and takes the seat next to her.
Biker: hey, what’s a cutie like you doing in a hole like this?
Sal doesn’t speak as she sips her drink and puffs at her cigarette. The biker moves his hand closer.
Biker: say, are you looking for a job? I know something that would be right up your ally?
Sal: Like what? A sex slave, fuck off.
The biker moves his hand to her but.
Biker: You’re feisty, I like that. Got a bit of a mouth on you though.
Sal grabs his hand and throws it away.
Sal: I’m looking for someone, Machttleo, and word on the street is you know ‘em.
Biker: how do you know that?
Sal says nothing as she ignores him.
The biker slams his hand on the bar table.
Biker: ANSWER ME BITC-
Sal pulls out a knife and slams it through the bikers hand into the table.
Biker:AHHHHH!!!!
Sal: ah thought you bikers were supposed to be tough?
Biker: you? You’re the one who’s been attacking my men. Your going to
pay for this you Bitc-
Sal puts out her ciggetett in his face and pays for her drink. She grabs her helmet and leaves. She stops at the door as she buckles her helmet on.
Sal: oh, do me a favor. Tell your boss, Ah’m coming for him.
The biker rips the knife out of his hand as some of his guys rush up to him.
Biker: Kill that bongo.
Sal is riding down the freeway as she notices five bikes start gaining on her. One gets up next to her and makes a throat slitting gesture. Sal draws a gun and fires.
Cut to black.
In theaters September 23
All rights reserved by DW comics and sony pictures.
Walky seems a little unclear on the concept that he’s actually not a kid anymore. He’s an adult now, with all the rights and privileges pertaining thereof.
Yeah, damn that R.A. for forcing Billie to fall in love with a suicidal person. Ruth should have tried to, I don’t know, split them up or something.
Seriously, Walky pisses me off right here. Ruth bullies Billie, and he doesn’t say a word. Ruth becomes suicidal (well, more suicidal) while Billie is in love with her, and suddenly she’s the bad guy.
(Yes, I know Walky didn’t know about the bullying. Complaining about Walky when he can’t do nothing back to me makes me feel better)
(…it occurs to me that I may be a bit strange)
And another thing! Who up and decided that Ruth was the adult anyway? She’s, like, a year older than Walky!
(…well, I guess the school did when they made her an R.A. huh? Dammit, I need to quit undercutting my own arguments like this…)
Actually there was that one time that Sal grabbed Ruth’s head when she was clearly bullying Billie. Walky was there. And then the next time when he got his pajamas and they were together, he ran away when Ruth showed up (Billie even clearly wanted his support). He was definitely ignoring what was going on to her.
And then there was the time he’s referring to here, when he went to Billie’s RA to get help because Billie was freaked out – crawled into his bed and unresponsive. Ruth assured him she’d take care of it.
But she was too tied up with the problem to do her job.
Look, I’m not saying Ruth hasn’t been a shitty person. I even pointed out some examples of when she was a shitty person. I’m just saying, Walky being angry at Ruth right now and laying all the blame for what is going on presently on her is more than a little messed up, for a number of reasons.
I agree with Walky, with the exception of his more general statement on adults. I happily cheer on Dina and Becky but Ruth took a person under her care down with her. She was not just a mean RA but a straight-up bully. Ruth is not a good person and took advantage of a fucked-up situation and a girl who she bullied and emotionally abused. I hope Billie gets away from her. And yeah, I say this as someone who has faced depression. That is not an excuse to act like a piece of shit. And before anyone gets on me for being hard on Ruth in particular, I HATE Mike and wish so hard for his arc to become the moment when everyone around him realizes he is a cancerous parasite and ditches his ass. So yeah, the end of his arc being his exit from the comic strip.
Fun fact: intestinal parasite infections correlate negatively with autoimmune diseases like Morbus Crohn. Looks like some intestines got out of the habit of protecting themselves when the worms were already doing that job in the course of decorating their living rooms.
On the other hand, in the current phase of the relationship (sexy lesbian suicide pact, illegal cohabitation) it’s actually been Billie making most of the moves – “we can touch each other,” “I’m not going to let you push me away,” etc. Casting Ruth as a one-sided abuser is missing a lot of the nuance that keeps Billie rushing back to Ruth of her own will.
I’m not unconvinced that Billie feels vindicated in breaking through Ruth’s worst behaviour and seeing that there is a troubled person in there who desperately needs help. For someone with her sense of self worth, Ruth’s alternating shows of affection and abuse could screw with Billie big time, and then seeing that Ruth is in danger, making Billie go into overdrive so she can save Ruth. I can fully believe that so much about their relationship is Billie finding a sense of self worth in it.
Ruth is not An Abuser anymore. She’s cut that out and for all the power dynamics Billie is the one really holding the cards here. It’s just, well it’s basically impossible for me to want these two to be together because of that beginning. It reads too uncomfortably close to Ruth being rewarded with her victim, even if I know for a fact that this isn’t the intent of her character.
Well, I wouldn’t call it abusive, but Billie did majorly hurt Ruth when she lied about them quiting alcohol together. And like someone pointed out below, Billie broke into Ruth’s room and (opportunistically) took a blackmail picture of Ruth passed out drunk.
Anyway, all of that stuff is firmly stuck in the past. I haven’t seen anything outright abusive about the relationship for a long time, since before the time skip.
I mean, it really isn’t Ruth’s business if Billie drinks.
Like, no, Billie shouldn’t have, obviously, but that’s at most a dick move on her part and IIRC it was revealed that Ruth never quit either (or at least by the time they entered their relationship, Ruth had taken up drinking again).
As for the blackmail, that happened after Ruth stole Billie’s shirt and then brought it up when Ruth threatened to expel her for drinking (are RAs allowed to do random searches for contraband? Genuinely unaware about that).
Actually it was Ruth’s business. First, she’s the RA. Enforcing alcohol bans is one of her jobs. I believe Ruth was actually specifically warned about Billie’s drinking before the semester started.
More importantly, since she wasn’t even pretending to do her job at the time, they’d made a deal to quit drinking together. That was leading into a relationship. Ruth discovered Billie hadn’t quit when they kissed for the first time. That’s a hell of a betrayal.
At that point, Ruth had quit. Gone through withdrawal and all. She kept it up afterwards. She didn’t start again until they got together.
Billie never stopped. Apparently, she never even tried to stop. I don’t think it’s been shown clearly, but near as I can tell she didn’t stop this time either – when Ruth stopped again under threat of Mary’s blackmail. She’s shown no signs of withdrawal, while Ruth has. Just like before.
Right, good point. I completely misremembered that, and even later on Ruth says that she had gotten down to compulsively buying them without drinking.
I maintain that it’s more of a dick move than anything, like of all things I think that would be something Billie should be allowed to be given a second chance over, but, yeah, betrayal is a good way to put it, especially with that bit about how Billie’s all “youre the one with the problem so mleh.”
Walky, you dumb shit. Depression and alcoholism doesn’t care how old you are. Also, aren’t you over 18, or 21, or something? That classifies you as an adult yourself, buddy-boy.
18 is a child with more responsibilities than they’re ready for. Meanwhile Ruth was older than them, and was specifically given a position of authority over them in which she was supposed to be responsible for their wellbeing.
Walky’s in the right. Kind of an idiot, but correct. It’s like your friend gets mugged, you call a cop to help, then the cop takes the friend’s watch too.
…So, what you’re saying is, people don’t magically become adults when they turn 18, they magically become adults when they turn 19 or 20?
Seriously though, I agree that Ruth should have been more responsible, because she was selected by the school to be an authority figure. But the school is not all-knowing, and it is pretty clear that they misjudged her. Ruth (well, depressed Ruth anyway) is not cut out to be an authority figure.
And maybe if Ruth’s financial situation was different (or if she wasn’t so desperate for approval from her grandfather, not entirely sure which), Ruth would have recognized her limitations and quit her job. But, for whatever reason, Ruth decided to blithely ignore the fact that she is clearly unsuitable to be an authority figure and just kept at it. Which is really the kind of thing you would expect from an irresponsible not-quite-adult, isn’t it?
Ruth *is* the responsible party in that setting. She’s trained to be the RA, and has clear responsibilities that she has to adhere to, which she couldn’t because she was depressed. RA responsibilities don’t suddenly become fluid once you’re in a relationship with someone. For example, depression aside, just because a freshman is my SO does not make it appropriate for me to drink with them or enable their alcoholism. I think Ruth’s depression had a lot to do with her decisions in that respect, and it’s good that she’s on her way to get help.
So I don’t think Walky means it literally, just that she’s the one that’s in charge and for whatever reason (according to Walky) she screwed up her job. We know she was severely depressed, all Walky knew before this was that Billie was the one with issues, and Ruth was her RA.
Well, from what people mentioned it seems RA-training is a rather short thing that basicly teaches you the rules you are supposed to enforce and not much else.
After Blaine showed up, Ruth felt responsible for talking to Amber even though she clearly didn’t feel equipped to do so.
And yes, Ruth shouldn’t have pushed up her “l’m an RA to be feared” routine to stealing stuff from Billie, nor should she have started a sexual relationship with her. She should have got some counseling for “hey I’m attracted to this drinker who already was drunk-driving even though I hate drunk drivers for killing my parents”.
But this would have required at lot of trust in someone and she doesn’t have much of that.
I mean, I’ve seen a lot of really uncomfortable fetishization of queer relationships, that we’re all just big drama bombs and that our problems make us Tragically Hot. Joyce’s line hit a really sour note for me and I’m glad Walky told her off.
The Vertigo comic Lucifer features a Neo Nazi falling in love with a gay man he paralyzed for life, and the big plot twist is that the guy knew that the skinhead did it but he loves him anyway and, just, what the actual fuck am I reading here?
I dunno if that one was a plot twist per se, given that that in that arc the character was already in love with him and knew he was a neo-nazi and the neo-nazi exploited that so all his buddies could jump him. So the neo-nazi realizing that that betrayal was because he couldn’t handle the reality of loving the guy back is supposed to be a bitter note, rather than a touching moment and a number of characters straight up dress down the neo-nazi for being a walking sack of shit.
Eh, that’s fair. I’m set in how I perceive this, but I can also recognize why a lot of folks want Walky to piss off right now.
Like, yeah, if Walky is saying “Ruth is directly responsible for Billie’s depression” then he’s being a stupid asshole, but I don’t think that’s the only thing he’s trying for here. At least, I hope not.
I’m going to go ahead and point out a thing about the fetishization thing:
He’s not helping there at all. Because t hat isn’t even /slightly/ what is driving his immediate audience; it’s Joyce. I’ll certainly grant she thinks about Billie at least somewhat sexually, but Ruth’s presence has to count way more than Billie’s (Unless I’m underestimating how much of a mood-killer fear is for her.).
Now, /the/ audience is a nominally valid target, but /the/ audience often needs a direct clue by four. And I mean /direct/.
I think if you put a gun to his head, Walky would probably be aware there’s bigger shit that’s going on, distantly. But he’d pin the immediate problem on Ruth. And even if he didn’t, it’s by far the refrain here. And I don’t exactly got a good reason to assume the best about Walky, in contravention of the text.
I mean, both parts of that particular subplot kinda hit on the same thing for me.
Like, the first part was just standard Tragedy of the Queer (see Sandman, one of the greatest comics of all time, and its bog standard “Trans lady dies tragically so cis friends can learn lesson about tolerance”) but the return to it near the end had it revealed that the dude knew but he loved him anyway. That’s the end reveal and how skinhead guy avoids facing consequences. Because a dude who’s spine he broke and gave brain damage is all “its coo brah lets have adopted babies” about it.
And, like, no! I’ve achieved maximum nope! That’s some straight up The Sheik bullshit! And it feels really weird coming after something as rad as Mazikeen macking on her girlfriend in front of the entire heavenly host.
Ugh, that Sandman plot is pretty much straight up unreadable for me these days for how brutally transphobic it was (I mean, the damn moon shows up to tell her she’s not a real woman, WTF).
But yeah, you’re probably right, it’s been awhile since I reread Lucifer and I remember just sort of feeling generally meh about that particular subplot so it was probably fucked up.
What I take away from that Sandman plot is not that Wanda is not a real woman, but that the moon is a transphobic jerk.
We have all these antropomorphical personifications and gods and abstract concepts and whatnot running around, being petty dicks of Greek Mythology proportions. The moon is just as bad as the rest of the lot. The way I read it, that episode did nothing to reduce Wanda’s gender identity and everything to reduce the Moon’s divine infallibility.
Doesn’t make it more comfortable to read of course, especially since Wanda’s story ark is a tragedy.
That’s one of the next lessons she needs to learn. Her guilt over past bigotry is making her want to be supportive just because it’s a same-sex relationship. It’s better than being automatically against it, but it’s still demeaning
From the way she phrases it, it read to me like she was looking to Dorothy for guidance. She’s at least vaguely aware that she shouldn’t treat queer relationships differently, but right now she can’t tell how far her guilt is skewing her reaction.
Given her own recent experiences with how harshly Becky was treated/judged by her church and their own families, it’s understandable that she would feel uncomfortable with Walky’s reaction, and be hesitant to take his side.
I’ve got such mixed feelings about Walky here. On the one hand, seeing him actually get out of his head a bit and show that empathy and care and concern for Billie is super heart-warming and his over-protective big brother shtick is somewhat endearing. On the other, ungh, well, let’s just dive right into it.
Panel 1: Okay, I unapologetically love him in this panel. Like, he knows that they aren’t actually fine and things are serious and he even introspects a little, which for Walky is like pulling teeth, acknowledging that he just doesn’t have the skills to support Billie in a helpful way in situations like these and that his attempts to rise to the occasion fell somewhat flat.
And that’s so unfortunate and sad, because Walky was really trying as best he could and yet he still couldn’t succeed to his own standards or feel like his presence was adding something. And it just makes me want to give the poor woobie a hug.
Panels 2 and 3: And then, we get here. And ugh.
I really empathize with Walky here cause it’s hard suddenly being thrown into the deep end of aiding a depressed person like that. Hell, we’ve seen in earlier strips that no one has been handling it exceptionally well (when Carla is actually in the top half of those who’ve handled it well and she noped so fast out of the room there was a dust cloud, that’s saying way too much).
And that can stir a lot of emotions including feelings of anger or frustration.
But here’s the things that majorly bother me in his responses here:
1) Ruth is not much more of an adult than him and is pretty much a kid herself. And well, yeah, no shit she is, because Walky isn’t even talking about her. Billie’s problems came long before Ruth and Walky knows it because he’s been watching her downward spiral from afar for awhile now and given his conversations with Sal, he’s probably or should probably have started putting together the pieces that it’s Billie’s parents who bear some of the responsibility if not for Billie’s depression, certainly the way she desperately tries to avoid thinking about it or talking about it with loved ones.
And so, it’s somewhat unfortunate to see him displace and project that frustration better aimed at parents at someone with only minor authority to try and help.
1: On a narrative level, it’s better for him to voice these things aloud because it can lead to more interesting interactions, instead of just shoving them into a thought bubble and being done with it.
2: He’s venting. Sometimes you just have to get that ugly shit out of your system and voice it to people that probably won’t be hurt by it. If he said this to Ruth and/or Billie? Then yeah, fire and brimstone. But venting when they’re not around… sure, it’s not ideal, but it’s better than a hell of a lot of alternatives.
Oh, I agree. Him actually talking about any feelings period is actually a major step for him and its good he’s actually starting to do it. And I think it’s really awesome that he at least hid this kinda stuff from them when trying to comfort them, because that would have been the last thing Ruth and Billie would have needed.
Part of what makes this somewhat frustrating and emotionally conflicting, because I’m so proud of him and so frustrated with him simultaneously. Like a puppy who’s managed an impressive task while also tracking mud all over the inside of the house.
I completely agree on the venting. This is a safe space where Walky can vent frustration and fear and anger and not be on the ball all the time.
I also think that he has a point bongoing about Ruth failing to adult – because that was her job as an RA, to BE the adult for the other stupid kids. When Walky came to her he didn’t just dump his problems on a fellow young&dumb student’s doorstep. He went through the Proper Channels to Alerted the Proper Authorities.
If the situation would have been to sticky for Ruth she SHOULD have alerted Chloe. Instead she gave Billie a bottle of booze and told her to watch her die (OK, that was really unfair, but not as far from the mark from where Walky is standing).
So yeah, Walky is completely right, and he is right to be angry. Ruth WAS supposed to help. The fact that she didn’t is in fact a stellar example of why it is a bad idea for an RA to date someone in her care.
Also, I sadly think that Ruth DID do a lot of damage to Billie’s first weeks in college. Billie was tentatively trying to find her footing and build up a new life, and Ruth kept undermining that effort. Something kinda hopefully good came out of it, but Billie lost a lot of opportunities in the process.
Of course, there are lot of things that are not Ruth’s fault (including the fact that Billie did bad already before Ruth targeted her for pigtails-in-inkwells style romance), and all adults involved has done a worse job to fuck it up, including Walky’s parents, Billie’s parents, Ruth’s grandfather (who looks like Tywin Lannister in my head) and Chloe who did a bad job keeping track of the RA under HER charge.
But I really think Walky is right to be angry, and he expresses that anger in the least damaging way possible. When he actually talked to Ruth there was nothing by support and worry (and silliness).
I agree with some of that, but he also doesn’t know that she gave her booze or any of that other stuff or any of her bullying or abuse. That all never came up.
So, in his eyes, she was depressed, he went to proper authorities to fix it (and Ruth did what an actually good RA would do, check in personally and see how she was doing), but he only realized later, that they were in the midst of getting together and he’s blaming that on her.
Again, if he had the full story and was reacting this way, I’d be way less ambivalent and conflicted about his response.
Except that “check in personally and see how she was doing” was a total failure because of what was already going on between them.
Even if Walky doesn’t know the full story, he’s right about the gist. “I went to Ruth for help with Billie and not only did she not help, but she was actually the cause.” (Or at least the immediate cause – even Walky would admit Billie has deeper problems.)
And as Wraithy said above, that he’s venting on this now and didn’t even hint at it in the room with Ruth & Billie is pretty impressive – for Walky, at least.
She knows her presence is likely toxic and unhelpful at this point and tries to hint at that and only really gives in to checking in on her (checking in on her, not claiming to take sole responsibility for making her better, this is a thing Walky and Billie both get wrong [Billie when she asked Carla to check in on Ruth and then got angry that Carla wasn’t essentially filling her role of being on-demand emotional support making sure Ruth wasn’t killing herself, which is a much bigger ask]) temporarily.
And given her lack of spoons and real reasons to be upset with Billie or recognize things have always been super toxic between them and she’s a bad road for her (at the time), she did try to talk with her, even though it ended up being way more bitter, way more “go away so I can kill myself” than helpful, and so on (though ironically somewhat more supportive than she’s managed for anyone, cause she’s really bad at being emotional support).
She did her “job”. It just wasn’t a job that magically fixed Billie (though it did get her out of being non-responsive and back to being up and walking around which is a big step [one she knows from personal experience]), make it so Walky no longer needed to provide emotional support for her forever more, or actually do the useful thing of connecting Billie with Student Health Resources.
Note: None of this is intended to excuse early Ruth in general. Because early Ruth is an abusive asshole who’s actions against Billie, especially in the context of their later relationship, are straight up monstrous.
No, Ruth isn’t the immediate or proximate cause. To the extent Billie’s fucked up about her feelings iwth Ruth, it’s because Ruth was trying to shut her out to avoid blackmail. Actions taken under duress are generally the fault of the person /creating/ the duress, not the one /acting under it/.
Like, it’s a little offensive on some level that people keep talking about the source of Billie’s problems as if there is a properly understood source. The bulk of her problem seems to be depression, albeit not in a state like Ruth’s. That’s… that’s brain chemistry. A lot of things are not /helpful/, and I’ve gone from cautiously optimistic to extremely leery about her parents… but ultimately Billie’s biggest problem is probably that, with a side order of alcohol dependency (I’m making plans to move to a place where the drinking age is 18 with higher quality of life and standards of living, so don’t expect for me to be fucked about the idea that she drinks at all; but she clearly relies on it too much given the physical and emotional dependence on it.)
The idea that the /real/ cause is anything but that kind of makes me a /little/ mad.
Fair enough. Cause isn’t a good word. I did say “(Or at least the immediate cause – even Walky would admit Billie has deeper problems.)”
Nonetheless, it’s perfectly understandable that Walky’s upset because he went to the proper authority when Billie was in trouble and that authority was unable to help (or arrange for help or anything) because she was in an secret relationship with her charge, which was, while not the cause of Billie’s problems at least tied up with them.
She’s in that room right now on suicide watch at least partly because Ruth didn’t do her job. And partly because of the horribly fucked up relationship. That led to this particular crisis.
Without Ruth, this crisis wouldn’t have happened. Maybe another one would have. Maybe she would have been able to cope better without that added trauma. The underlying problems would have still been there, of course.
I actually suspect that in Billie’s case the alcoholism may be the larger problem. She hasn’t even made an attempt to quit. She’s lied about quitting, even to Ruth.
Ruth is depression with a side order of alcohol. Billie’s the other way around.
Basically nobody in a drama piece is going to go see a counsellor. They have to basically be nonexistent, and their acknowledged existence has to be slammed, or else real help ruins a lot of the on-screen action. Of course she didn’t ‘do her job’ in the most important sense. She can’t. The laws of the universe prevent it from being helpful (Technically, she can try, but if everyone keeps trying it gets less believable that nobody DOES it. The smarter narrative move is to not even suggest it).
Within that framework, she went and did the thing she can do, after being pressed, as someone who shouldn’t have done it, and knew that, but was still better than it not being done at all.
“The crisis wouldn’t have happened without Ruth”? Man I don’t know, she’d thought she was horrible poison after dealing with her Ex- who’s name escapes me. Horrible poison that ruins everything. A contributing factor in that was probably hurting Ruth because she didn’t stop drinking, but that’s less on Ruth and more that there was someone she COULD fail by not drinking. And she is in a shitty headspace in general – she probably could have manufactured another reason to hate herself that much.
I don’t actually know taht Billie’s alcoholism is her bigger problem. Well, okay, I’m pretty sure on that one in the general, but I don’t think it’d have her on suicide watch if she wasn’t depressed.
And yeah, that’s a good point that the real “culprit” is brain chemistry. I apologize for going all “I accuse her parents” earlier.
Also, yeah, very much agree on Ruth not really precipitating the last crisis (or worse, if she did then it was for setting a boundary with Billie and sticking to it [not dating her because she broke the no drinking promise]).
Plus, there’s the point that the relationship actually did somewhat help Billie in the short-run in that it kept her from being catatonic in Walky’s bed unable to move. NRE, endorphins, all that good jazz.
It wasn’t gonna save her, but it was enough to hit the snooze alarm a little and the ability to help out Ruth on her not dying project allowed her to feel useful to someone which was a big tool her self-hatred was using against her.
Which makes Walky’s specific accusation somewhat off unless he’s somehow sussed out the abusive origins thing and I’m just not seeing the signs in the text yet that he’s pieced that together.
Yeah, the origins are straight up shit. Without viewer knowledge, I legit don’t know that it’s possible to approve of the relationship in light of them, so I imagine Dotty is actually really *frumple* and is just not voicing it because it’s not the time and place.
“Adults shouldn’t be the source of problems.” and “Give me a heads up when you’re ready to consider some friggin’ nuance.” don’t seem to go together.
Billie is not the innocent victim of Ruth’s sinister machinations. Billie and Ruth are both suffering from depression that they have been self-medicating with alcohol for years. They both need help, not condemnation. In the absence of that knowledge, Walky was right to expect more assistance from the RA than he received, but now is the time for understanding rather than judgement.
That said, I understand (what I presume to be) his feelings. He obviously cares deeply about Billie. When someone you love is in this kind of pain, you want to do anything you possibly can to take that pain away. Instinctively, the easiest way to do that is to identify some external source of the pain and forcibly remove it. I suspect he’s blaming Ruth because she’s an easy target for him to rationalize as the cause of the problem.
I think what Walky means to say is that Ruth is an “adult” in the sense that she is in a position of authority. Also, as we’ve discussed before Ruth is the “adult” here in the sense that being a sophomore- senior is way “older” than being a freshman. She’s also 20 to Billie’s (17/18?). They’re just not of the same maturity level, and theoretically Ruth should know better.
He didn’t (and doesn’t) know everything about Ruth’s story and why she is the way she is, just that she’s the person responsible for everyone on their floor, which the point of being an RA.
Ruth entered a loving, but unhealthy in a lot of ways relationship with Billie, and instead of helping Billie with her own issues (like pointing her to campus resources or some such thing, what she’s officially supposed to do) Billie was the one that eventually helped Ruth function, helped Ruth hide her issues from everyone so neither of them, but mostly Ruth wouldn’t suffer the consequences. I know about Mary, but Ruth would have been fired way before Mary blackmailed her if anyone had found out before that. Also, see suicide/drinking pact.
In the end, there is a reversal of the roles in the sense that Billie becomes the one who takes care of Ruth, not to mention the problematic way their relationship started: Ruth bullying Billie, making her feel bad for being overweight, etc. – and then Billie, though we know she cares for Ruth, starts to feel obligated to keep their relationship and drinking a secret, and was so enveloped in the whole thing (and just uninformed about depression) she didn’t realize the reality of how bad Ruth’s situation was. I doubt she would have taken that kind of action if an outside person (Carla) hadn’t pointed it out to her. Which is food for thought.
So from Walky’s perspective, he would be mad at Ruth, because in his mind Ruth was the one that should have been taking care of Billie and not the other way around – he sees this relationship as a bad relationship – even though from Ruth or Billie’s (or the reader’s) perspective, it’s not “fair” for him to think that.
Just to be clear *I* don’t think Ruth and Billie’s relationship is entirely/inherently bad, just that there are some issues there, so I can understand where Walky’s coming from.
2) Okay, let’s address the elephant in the room that he’s blaming Ruth for somehow creating Billie’s depression in the first place. And in doing so, he heavily implies not only that her depression was somehow romantically tied (it so wasn’t, hell, even her bad turn was mostly caused by losing the thin mask of status she was using to run from her internal problems), but that Ruth should be blamed for not magically fixing Billie even though he was more than happy to pawn her off on her in the first place.
Like, it’d be one thing if he disliked her because of the abusive origins of their relationship. Cause hell yeah, Walky, in that instance. But he doesn’t really know about those. Like, the most he’s got of that is that they met when Ruth threw Billie on a chair, but he’s not really bringing that up or showing many signs that he’s putting together the pieces on that.
And instead what he’s bringing up is some really myopic kid-level understanding of depression where the “mommy” adult figure makes everything better and he’s frustrated that Ruth wasn’t actually a magical make depression go away fairy.
And that’s especially galling for me, because I’ve been in the position of being a romantic partner of someone in a bad depressive spell shortly after bunkering through a bad spell of my own and being blamed by said partner’s mom (an abusive woman largely behind her depressive spell) for somehow infecting her daughter with depression.
And also because Walky was there to hear that Ruth has been suffering blackmail and homophobia from Mary. So, to be ranting about the depressed person in this instance without any real seeming cause feels somewhat… douchey?
3) It’s Walky dipping into toxic masculine behavior again.
And by that I mean, men and those raised as if men frequently are heavily policed in which emotions they are allowed to show as they grow up. Crying, hurting, worry, are seen as weak and heavily bullied. Whereas men are instead encouraged when experiencing emotions to instead turn to anger and frustration as those are the limits of emotions a young man is allowed to feel.
And well, we know Walky doesn’t handle “the feels” very well and uses every trick in the book to avoid dwelling on them. And we know he’s very susceptible to a lot of “masculine rules” that he weirdly follows and doesn’t much examine the cultural contexts of his actions or when he’s harming others with his antics.
And so, him dodging away from feeling sad and vulnerable into building a justification for anger feels like yet another one of these emotional dodges (albeit likely very unconscious) and avoidances for examining feelings more directly and letting himself feel genuinely sad.
Cause, this is a thing he’s done this whole arc, translating his empathy and concern which are so beautiful into big epic statements about how his big manliness is gonna save the day. So this response to impotence (seeing her, he’s not actually able to help much) feels… just sorta frustratingly, ugh, Walky, examine your shit bro-y.
Firstly, I’m sorry you had that experience with your SO’s mom.
Secondly, I have to disagree. he said, “I trusted her to help”. I don’t take that to mean that he thinks Ruth caused Billie’s depression/drinking/problems. he knew she had problems before, from when they were in high school. I take it to mean that he thought, since Ruth is an RA and RAs are supposed to help freshmen with problems, that Ruth would get Billie help in any number of official channels that RAs are supposed to. It’s simplistic, but most schools give freshmen simplistic explanations of these things. Because she was/is so unwell, Ruth did none of those things.
It’s quite ironic that Walky is pointing out the nuance of Ruth and Billie’s relationship in particular, because it seems to him that he’s of the opinion not that Ruth caused Billie’s problems, but that Billie’s relationship to Ruth is yet *another* stressor on Billie. It’s like throwing up your hands and saying, “Ugh! This whole thing is a mess!” Walky doesn’t think that Ruth is “good” for Billie, as problematic as that may sound, even though he’s not literally saying it here. I put myself in Walky’s shoes, I wouldn’t completely write Ruth off, but I’d be questioning the situation – especially if I knew about how the relationship started.
I also think that Walky feels all of those things at the same time. I would agree with you though, that it’s a very masculine trait to be angry for anything. “I feel helpless – so I’ll get mad and punch the wall in despair” is a common trope for male characters that a lot of people subscribe to. it’s easier for anyone to be angry than sit with the more vulnerable feelings, but Walky definitely has the right to feel some kind of way about the whole situation.
Oh totally, he has a full right to feel horrible. Hell, even a full right to be petty when dealing with a stressful horrible situation (and he really is, like this was a nightmare of his he tried to put out of mind for awhile that came rearing back and then he also got put through the ringer by Mary being an asshole and literally telling him it would be his fault if she died).
Like, hurt and fear and pain aren’t rational and express themselves in tons of different ways and they are totally valid.
I’m just somewhat frustrated that he’s again falling into this male trope where it’s easier to be angry and hating someone than feel vulnerable and that he somehow expected Ruth to solve everything with a magic wand and somehow make it all better by the time he got back from class.
And if I’m being honest with myself, it’s not even so much that he feels these things, because hey, people deal with strong emotions in different ways and he was very careful and very good not to express this frustration and anger for his impotence in being able to help to Ruth and Billie’s faces. It’s more that he snipes at Joyce at the end and tries to frame his “I don’t have feelings, stupid face” grumblings as somehow the more “logical” and right response, stemming from his clear understanding of nuance.
Like, that’s also a trope seen in a lot of dudes, to try and act like their emotional response to things (usually in the form of anger) is somehow more logical and reasoned than whatever the woman is saying even if it is the more reasoned statement and is coming from a place of more introspection and understanding.
I dunno, I tend to bristle at a lot of toxic masculinity behaviors because of my own background and how hard folks worked while I was growing up to try and “train” me in them so I’d be less of a (slur for a homosexual man).
Yeah, I completely agree on the toxic masculinity thing. Especially his snipe at Joyce. He is one beat from calling her “irrational”. But just as you note, he use what limited tools he has in his box to deal with a HORRIBLY painful situation. And there are much worse things he could do that do a stupid rant in a safe space.
Ouch, yeah, that Mary thing must hurt A LOT, especially since he has tried – and failed – to help Billie basically the entire comic and almost never got recognition except for snarls (“I don’t want to bee seen with you, Walky”), belittlement (“silly Walky, she was just in love”) and less than helpful “help” (“Godportunity!”). Ruth was the one person he thought actually DID do something to help, and now he has every reason to believe that she did not only neglect to do so, but also did everything worse.
Come to think of it, there is probably a not-so-subtle parallel to ANOTHER sister who he COULDN’T help. We have heard very little of teen!Walky and how he dealt with Sal’s rebellion that escalated with the dual robbery and her being sent away, but I would be surprised if he didn’t at some point thinks in terms of what he could have done to prevent it.
Yeah, I get that about the Walky’s snide remark to Joyce at the end. Joyce implying that she feels she shouldn’t worry too much because they are a queer couple (because she doesn’t want to be seen as a bigot) is problematic, but Walky definitely didn’t need to respond that way.
And no worries, I feel ya. Being a woman and growing up with little people having little tolerance for me feeling anything other than accommodating and “nice”, I too am very impatient with men who are incompetent when it comes to *owning* their feelings. I gravitate away from from overly angry men, and also from men who want mother substitutes and not partners/friendships.
Which is also strange because that upbringing has resulted in me knowing clearly what I feel, but also being uncomfortable sometimes expressing them. But I think for me that’s the difference between gender norms: Men fear seeming weak and being embarrassed, women fear retribution/total rejection, because we are seen as expendable. Like the Margaret Atwood quote. And the intersectionality of race/gender/sexuality complicates that as well.
By those standards, i should be biased against Walky, but weirdly I care for him very much as a character.
Ruth was being an asshole one thousand times over @ Billie at the beginning of their relationship.
But as it continued, RUTH was the one who needed help more, and if anything, helping her was Billie’s coping mechanism, proving to herself that she can still do some good to SOMEONE.
And here’s the thing, if they didn’t have their arrangement, if Ruth had been a normal reasonable RA, she wouldn’t have ever been in position to know about Billie’s problems. It’s not an RA’s job to stalk freshmen, and Billie would not have asked for help from her any more than she had asked Walky.
It’s just… no. Walky is missing the mark here on what is and isn’t Ruth’s fault one thousand times over, and yes, him dumping all over Joyce who is being ten times the mature adult that he is, is a ridiculous stunt of immature toxic masculinity.
Except she would have: In the hypothetical where Billie was having the same issues with someone other than her RA, Walky still would have gone to her RA for help when she turned up in his bed and wouldn’t talk or move. But that RA wouldn’t have been tied to the problem, so while she still wouldn’t have been able to magically fix it, she might well have pushed Billie towards the counseling or some other resource that’s supposed to help.
Walky asked Ruth to help and trusted her to do so, because she was the adult authority figure. He did the right thing. Followed channels. And Ruth was too much a part of the problem to do her job.
The problem isn’t that she didn’t do her job. She did. She totally did her job there and followed exactly what she promised to him.
It’s that, a) she shouldn’t have done her job because she was too close to the situation (which is something she realized), b) she’s shit at her job, especially the parts where she emotionally comforts others because it makes her feel like a fraud as she’s in a state where she has lost track of most of her emotions, an c) RAs should probably encourage mental health services for students in crisis, helping them set up appointments and stuff, but that’s definitely not part of protocol and training unfortunately and that role should probably be more filled in by worried friends and family… (and Walky straight up didn’t want that responsibility and was hoping to completely dump the situation on Ruth and call it a day).
My take on that is different from yours. Particularly on Walky’s motivations. He does manipulate and try to guilt Ruth into helping, but I don’t see it as him not wanting the responsibility, but as him being scared for her, freaking out and not knowing what to do – he tried talking to her in both silly Walky mode and in a more concerned fashion and got absolutely no response. This was his equivalent of Carla’s “NopeNopeNopeNope”.
He did the right thing – went to the closest level of authority figure. He covered this up when talking to her by blathering about missing class and the like, because he’s Walky and he can’t admit either the feelings or the uselessness – I’ll cop to that.
Ruth then did what she promised, I can’t argue with that either. But because she’s Ruth and because she was part of the problem, she didn’t actually help and in the long run just dragged Billie further down. She didn’t do her job – which would involve escalating the problem if she couldn’t deal with it herself.
I’m not expecting a magic fix for depression. Walky might have been. I don’t know. What he got was just papering over the cracks – hiding the problem. He wouldn’t be reacting this way even if Billie was still in a bad state, if Ruth hadn’t been involved or had properly done something.
I’m not sure what Walky should have done. I thought we were encouraging involving authorities and not just having the kids try to manage depression and other mental health crises on their own.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not blaming Ruth. I can just see why Walky does.
That’s a good point, he did what he felt should have been what he needed to, escalating problems he felt incapable to deal with to the nearest authority who could. And that’s a really good action on his part and I can see why he’d be frustrated on that level, like, I thought it just worked that I informed the authority and this stuff got taken care of, but the authority was incompetent/corrupt/dealing with her own shit/already intimately involved and that betrays how I thought all of this was supposed to work.
I don’t think Ruth did her job at all. Yeah, she showed up to see Billie when Walky said there was a problem, and then she half-assed it and didn’t ever address the problem again. RAs mostly do front-line contact and reporting, and if there’s a case where they can’t do that for a student (whether for romantic or other reasons) they’re supposed to kick it up the chain to their hall manager/residence life director/etc. Ruth didn’t do that; and it was one of the responsibilities she agreed to take on when she accepted her job and its compensation. Ruth isn’t somewhat responsible because she’s a romantic partner who didn’t address a problem, but because she’s an authority figure who didn’t address a problem. The ball was right in her court, and she did nothing. That’s what Walky is mostly calling out.
Of course, this is in addition to all the times Ruth insulted and harassed her residents, threatened them with assault, violated their privacy, and stole from them. Even if you ignore how Ruth fed into Billy’s depression and alcoholism, she tucked up massively on every other level. She has some serious problems of her own, but she’s past due to face some serious consequences for her behavior.
Huh, I just realized that some of my frustrations with Walky might be related to my frustrations when people are shitting on folks for reasons that are not actually their faults.
Like, yes, Ruth has so many toxic aspects of herself that he could have rightfully used to fuel his antipathy, but her being depressed and her not magically fixing depression so he could safely never have to deal with the tough emotions of supporting a depressed person are definitely not two of them.
Oh, I see that part – he thinks Ruth is the source of the problem of this particular situation (the suicide pact/hiding thing) – maybe he’s thinking, “if Billie had never got together with, Billie would not be dealing with this..”
I don’t think so and I don’t think that’s what Mav was saying. The immediate cause of this particular crisis episode (and the previous one he mentions, where she wound up in his bed and wouldn’t say anything, the one he went to Ruth for help with) is her relationship with Ruth.
Without Ruth, Billie would certainly still have issues and might well be facing entirely different crises, but she wouldn’t quite be in this situation.
I read his statement that “she was the cause of the goshdanged problem” to mean that he is blaming Ruth for causing the current situation rather than simply failing to remedy it. While he has expressed some level of awareness that Billie has been in pain for a while, we have no indication that he was aware of the problem existing before college.
Ehhhh, it’s easy to believe Walky is entirely wrong here but the Goodship Billy-Ruth had a lot of structural problems from the get go. Billie was suffering alcohol problems, self-esteem issues, and depression from the very beginning. She needed to get some therapy and treatment herself from the very beginning but Ruth instead pushed a relationship on her with bullying. I say pushed a relationship on her because Billie was in a very vulnerable place then and it began with needing to feel wanted by anyone. Then Billie felt like she was responsible for Ruth NOT DYING….because, well, Billie is a good person who wanted to help her in any way she could but Billie couldn’t help herself.
Walky is angry his pseudo-sister didn’t get help because of Ruth’s own issues. It’s monosighted but I can totally understand why he’s more worried about his sister than Ruth or his sister’s relationship with Ruth. Walky certainly doesn’t seem to give a shit about her being bisexual. He’s upset about the fact they’re in a hospital for her mental health.
Then again, I don’t mind the message, “Mental health first, romance later.”
Oh hell yes, on all of this. Billie/Ruth has HUGE structural problems and began hella toxic and awful and its possible that their relationship will always be partially poisoned by those toxic abusive beginnings, before you even get into the codependence and framing the entire relationship as a suicide pact among broken people*.
Though ironically, the fact that he’s upset she’s in the hospital is sorta part of the problem. When it’s more or less hidden, he could ignore it like all the shit his sister goes through, but now he’s having to face it directly. And that’s a trait both Billie and him share. But it’s really good that she’s here getting treatment, getting checked out. That’s a huge step. Even if it means admitting there’s been a huge problem lurking in Billie’s life for awhile, possibly even years like the Sal stuff.
* I mean, I still end up rooting for them because there’s enough in it that’s good and healing for them and… well, let’s just say Walky is not the only one who fills me with mixed emotions.
Panel 4: Oh Joyce, I kind of love your overcompensation. You’ve come so so far and it’s kinda beautiful. Even though Walky is partly right in that not every queer romance is fully healthy. But fuck it, cheer on the two girls, regardless, you beautiful cinnamon roll, you.
And Walky… ugh. Again, so conflicted with you here, cause this feels like his old tricks, smugly dismissing folks who disagree with him, playing the smug above it all fella with it all sorted out to hide his insecurities about the situation. And it’s a trait of his that’s really the least endearing and is fresh in my mind because of how he handled the whole Carla encounter not many strips ago.
Like, my initial response I want to make is just “fuck you, Walky, and your goddamn bad faith nuance bullshit”, because I fucking hate people in real life who pull shit like that right after they’ve been through showing no nuance and displacing their weird negative feelings on people who don’t deserve it.
And especially since what Joyce is saying isn’t even all that negative or worthy of that dismissal. Like let’s say Walky did know about the abusive origins of Ruth and Billie and was upset about that, Joyce isn’t necessarily saying that women-loving-women relationships are always healthy and awesome, she’s saying she’s come a long way from bigotry and acknowledges she’s overcorrecting herself to cheer on wlw relationships because she knows about her biases in the past and assumes accurately that her natural inclination is going to be to react negatively and is seeking to correct that.
And it’s more frustrating in that I read him not being aware of that, so it’s really just sniping at her for interrupting his woe is me, Ruth didn’t fix all of Billie’s problems and thus I’ve realized that adults sometimes fuck shit up and I don’t want to emotions that, pity party here.
And that’s one of the things that’s frustrating about states like this. He snipes at people, he takes out his attempts to avoid emotions on other people, but he expects the women who surround him to instantly get his back and support him nonetheless.
And that’s not an endearing behavior even though he’s very endearing here and going through a lot of emotions and venting them.
So yeah, summary, Walky makes me hella emotionally confused on this one.
I’m reading Walky as KNOWING that what he’s saying is kinda bullshit, and using that ironic and self-aware trolling as a way of deflecting and minimizing feels. Like, “Here’s another joke to defuse the seriouses.” It’s an intentional troll, but one aimed at deflecting and derailing.
Which is… also a bit conflicting. I’m see it as a weakness of his and part of the greater whole and accept it with a bit of a groan but a shrug of the shoulders. It’s part of who he is. But being frustrated and exasperated and condemning about him in Panel 5 is a perfectly valid response too.
Interestingly enough there’s been some fascinating articles written about the “just joking” not-so-ironic lampshading toxic masculinity trope and how harmful it can be using the example of Trump and his followers.
But yeah, kinda agree on the toxic loop.
Hell, it’s a hard thing to avoid in our culture given how painfully men are treated when they don’t do this stuff and how ubiquitous it is modeled. I honestly think I only avoided half of it because I wasn’t actually ever a man so part of me was always a little happy that I wasn’t meeting the “standard”.
And I know for a fact I didn’t avoid all of it, cause I still get anxious when crying in public and tend to go stoic as a natural response to negative experiences.
It’s the problematic element that Billie and Ruth would be awesome together if not for the fact both have problems which are entirely capable of killing them as well as dragging the other to their death. It’s a beautiful fun dramatic romance but in real-life, I admit, I’d encourage them to lay off dating for a few months to get help then find some other woman to date. Because I don’t think they’ll ever be good for each other as anything but friends.
I can see that, Reltzik. That sort of self deprecating jokes are one of his standard tools for defusing FEELS (latest seen in his UltraCar discussion with Carla). However, if that’s what he is going for this time he fails badly to find the balance between self deprecating and genuinly hurtful… which yet again fits perfectly with his state of mind right now.
FEELS…. ANGRY RANT…DEFLECTION… BOTCHED ATTEMPT AT SELF DEPRECATING JOKE…
Yeah, I’m with Cerberus. Walky makes me hella emotionally confused on this one. Mostly I feel sorry for him.
Yeah, and it’s becoming clear in these last two arcs as well as his rooftop scene with Amazi-girl that he’s got a lot of carefully trained baggage in him about avoiding the feelings, especially ones that make him feel vulnerable and unmanly, thus triggering these emotion cycles.
There’s actually a bitter irony in comparing Walky and Ruth directly in that Ruth doesn’t have much connection with her emotions and reacts in anger a lot when she feels anything, because her depression has robbed her of all her emotions besides anger so she indulges that because otherwise she wouldn’t have any feelings at all. It’s a way to connect with her remaining emotion.
But Walky turns to this anger -> distraction -> joke cycle because he hates feeling emotions and anger is the only emotion that is seen as socially acceptable for boys to feel. So basically, the dichotomy of anger because wants some feeling, any feeling versus anger because wants no feelings at all.
Well, anger, smugness, and the other host of emotions that aren’t actually called ’emotions’ socially so that men are allowed to have them (an obvious example being pride).
He has this whole shtick of “I’m right. Of course I’m right. But if I’m not, it’s ‘cos I’m not really a grown-up, so don’t blame me.” As a tactic for avoiding challenges to your beliefs, it is…. very, very annoying.
Yeah, he’s angry and lashing out at the person next to him because the person who he’d like to (somewhat justifiably) unload on isn’t present, and he sort of recognizes that he’d be kicking someone while they’re down.
Adults are given way more responsibility than kids, and as we all know with great responsibility comes greater chances of fucking shit up. Or something like that.
I still wonder if the preference they’re showing Walky is a race thing or a gender thing. Like, maybe the point of the unbalanced care package is that they care about his package.
But then, it might have something to do with Sal holding up a convenience store in the other direction. (We can see clear preference towards Walky in a lot of the flashback panels from even before then.)
Sal doing so has been extremely strongly implied to be because of her status as the unfavored child, and not knowing how to deal with that properly. And her status as the unfavored child is strongly based on race and possibly gender.
I dunno, I think he’s more upset about the betrayal of trust he’s feeling. When Billie was missing/wigging out he DID go to Ruth for help. Finding out she’s the cause of such wigging of the Billie has to sting, even if you have a level head.
I don’t think the Ruth/Billie shippers do it just because Ruth and Billie are both girls. Not all of them anyway.
For my part, I realize that Ruth and Billie had a really screwed up start, but I can’t reconcile Ruth’s attempts at decency with the idea that she is just “a piece of shit” that Billie should dump. Nobody in this series is a perfect little angel, including Billie, who spent most of the beginning being a shallow jerk (to everyone not named Ruth).
So, overall, I’m inclined to think that Ruth and Billie should just leave the past behind and focus on what they have now. I feel like both of them are better people now than when they started (more depressed, maybe, but still better people), so maybe there’s something to this thing.
And if not, they could still break up and then Ruth could get with Dorothy and I’ll be all “Yay!”
Part of the reason I have a hard time rooting for them is that Ruth was physically and verbally abusive toward Billie. She exerted that sort of force over someone she had authority over. I know that she has issues, and I sympathize. I want her to get better, but I can also understand why Walky is upset here. He went to her because she is responsible for the people in her hall. They both knew what that would mean and she assured him she would do something to help, but didn’t. If they do decide to pursue the relationship moving forward, I really hope we see some sort of couples counseling. Something that helps them acknowledge the codependent and toxic start to their relationship, because otherwise?
Also: Ruth is totally an adult re: someone in authority. She’s an upperclassman! But yes, she’s also only a few years older and doesn’t have it all figured out. That’s life.
It’s not exactly like it’s the first time David Willis has written a compelling unhealthy relationship and the fandom has shipped it.
The general reaction wasn’t dramatically different when it was Amber and Mike in Shortpacked.
I don’t think there’s a sizable contingent of the fanbase that normally wouldn’t be into an unhealthy relationship, but makes an exception for Billy/Ruth because it’s an F/F relationship.
Billie/Ruth started with the latter assaulting Billie numerous times and eventually developed into an alcoholic suicide pact.
I’m hard pressed to think of a relationship more messed up that we were intended to root for, save stuff like Twilight where the bad aspects came from incompetent writing.
Eeeeeeehhhhh yeah that’s a good point. It was pretty quickly revealed that Mike had orchestrated the whole thing (like I don’t think it took longer than, like, maybe three months) and I feel the inherent silliness of Shortpacked! allowed it to become a genuine romance, but that’s fair.
A surprisingly large percentage of fictional relationships seem to be abusive. At least here they partially resolved the abusive part without acting as if it’s normal.
We are all sources of, and solutions to, problems at all stages of our lives. We don’t start being perfect at adulthood, but we do get the power to do a lot more, whether that be harm or good.
I’ll say this much, Walky: On what basis did you assume Ruth was an ‘adult’. I mean, it wasn’t a bad assumption but it was still an assumption and one, if you’d asked anyone on the floor (say, your sister or your girlfriend), would have very quickly been disabused.
Ruth may not have been the ultimate cause of the current crisis in Billie’s life (because she’s pretty much a victim too) but in no way was she capable of making things better.
She’s two years older – which is a big deal at that age.
More significantly she was the appropriate authority figure to turn to – Billie’s RA. Which isn’t the same as “adult”, but pushes a lot of the same buttons.
And she should have been capable of making things better – or starting the process by contacting those who could. Or at least not being so much part of the problem. She’s the RA. That’s part of her job. And part of why relationships with students aren’t permitted.
I’m with Walky that Ruth was a poor choice for RA. Threatening new students is uncool. Pulling a student on your hall into an unhealthy relationship is uncool. And if you’re struggling that deeply with mental health problems, RA is simply not the job for you. I understand she needs they money and I feel for her but that does not negate my opinion on her qualification. I’m glad she’s getting help and hopefully will be in a better place to recover
Actually Walky has hit on several very important truths. Apart from the importance of responsible relationships from positions of trust/authority, nuance is very important.
I run into too many people who have picked a side. They are for queer rights, or for the support of women, or for the poor, or for empowerment of indigenous people. And having picked a side they will always throw in support for the side that supports the narrative they wish to tell.
And if the facts don’t match the narrative, if it turns out not to be a black and white case then “HOW COULD YOU NOT SUPPORT THE PEOPLE IN NEED YOU BIGOT!!!!!”. If I care about an issue, and someone identifies as an activist, I feel the need to fact check their stories twice as much. Quadruple if they are “on my side”.
Seriously, if you want to make positive change, give me a heads up when you are ready to consider some friggin nuance.
I’ve written a bit about how I dislike what Joyce is saying in the last panel, but I guess a way to see it is that we should be willing to stick our necks out for people who will face shit from society at large.
I’m reminded of an article I read a while back where a black customer gave shit to a white waitress and went on about how he was glad about her white tears (or something like that. It’s been a while) and for the life of me I couldn’t bring myself to care. Yes it sucks and that guy’s a dick, but the country next door to me is having a decades long discussion over whether their police officers need to be punished for shooting unarmed black children.
Also said waitress then got a bunch of donations from other sad oppressed white people, so yeah.
I dunno, I guess I just don’t see it as a “I was a bigot on this issue, so idk woot all wlw relationships no matter how toxic and abusive”, so much as her acknowledging that her old pattern was to see negativity in any wlw relationship and so she’s actively been trying to correct that and recognizes that that means she might be overcorrecting because of that.
Like if she said that after Walky got done running down a list of all the times Ruth assaulted Billie? Holy fuck, Joyce.
But her saying that after Walky essentially goes on a rant about how Ruth is depressed and didn’t magically fix Billie’s depression saving him from the need for feels makes it seem the far more nuanced response in the circumstances.
But look at it from Walky’s point of view – flawed though that may be.
His best friend (who he may or may not know and accept has preexisting problems) is in a secret suicidal relationship with her authority figure, which has been aggravating (or possibly in his mind causing) her depression. Possibly abusive, since he just learned about the “threw me into a chair” and he knows about Ruthless’s fearsome reputation.
And Joyce says “It’s two girls, so I’m going to cheer it on.”
Looks pretty bad to me.
Mind you, the actual situation is far more nuanced and I’m closer to Joyce’s stance here: Cheering it on, though for different reasons. And it’s still an important bit of growth for Joyce, even if it is overcompensating for her probable instinct to condemn it.
Well, I mean, in his mind he’s very justified and yeah, he’s upset and that’s super valid.
But also in his mind, people bringing in nuance or their own experiences to a situation is something he has a history of seeing as an attack (again, thinking about his interactions with Carla and then with Dorothy).
And she didn’t even say, it’s two girls so I’m cheering it. She said, I have a history of bigotry so my automatic instinct is to cheer it on because I recognize that.
Which is not to diminish his hurt feelings. In my reading at least, he saw Ruth as potentially causing Billie’s depression and definitely for papering over it and for Billie being here in this clinic right now and dealing with stuff.
So yeah, just mildly frustrating because it’s Walky defaulting to anger or smug detachment and then getting upset that everyone doesn’t just fall on board with him again and that’s a rather negative behavior to keep falling into even if individual examples may be well justified by stress and the position he’s coming from.
Yes, Walky, you have a very nuanced viewpoint there. The depressed girl like two years older than you is definitely an adult, and it’s definitely her fault that she was depressed… and oh yeah, it was definitely her that was the source of Billie’s problems as well. Not her parents, not her self-destructive behavior, no, it’s just Ruth’s depression being… contagious, or something.
I mean, he has a point in what he tells Joyce, but the irony is just overwhelming.
Ehhh, there’s an unfortunate quote about stopped clocks. Walky is right about this, “Ruth should have reported Billie’s problems so they could be treated.” She didn’t because Ruth had Billie’s problems only worse.
Yep, exactly – because Ruth had the exact same problems. And it’s pretty clear that she was fucked up because of her grandfather’s abuse… and for all we know most of her horrible behavior towards people on her floor is her mirroring what’s been done to HER… day and night, by an authority figure much closer and much more powerful than an RA.
As long as we are speaking about nuance, I would also like to bring up that Billie was pretty much nothing but a piece of shit at the beginning. She built up her reputation and self esteem by bullying ‘nerds’, and that included personally Walky. Yes, his self esteem appeared to be bouncy enough to just shrug it all off, but honestly I was seeing red so many times at Billie’s earlier behaviors.
And I feel like many commentors have forgotten exactly HOW the Ruth/Billie romantic relationship started. It wasn’t Ruth strongarming Billie into the relationship, although she tried that. No, Billie threw THAT in her face and ran off… only to get sexually assaulted by her newspaper boss in a similar manner, which if you ask me was ten times more fucked up (SHE EXPLICITLY CAME TO HER TO ASK FOR HELP WHAT THE FUCK).
Then there was a lull period when Ruth just wasn’t seen on the floor, Billie was effectively doing her job… and slowly growing more worried for her. It ended up with Billie pulling the fire alarm and dragging drunk Ruth into the shower to clean her up and that’s when power dynamics in that particular relationship were effectively reversed. Billie had a ton of blackmail material on Ruth, and was repeatedly and stubbornly inserting herself into Ruth’s life.
(At some point before the fire alarm Billie also broke into Ruth’s room to steal back her uniform and, well, GOT that blackmail material)
Yes, this relationship’s beginnings were super abusive, if we are talking about the whole ‘time Billie and Ruth knew each other’ as a relationship. But it specifically became a romantic relationship when that was over, and it was on Billie’s terms.
Another part of irony here is that for all that Billie is busting her ass to help her former bully, Walky’s doing the same thing. Billie wasn’t just an ass to him, she was pretty specifically trying to use him as a springboard to higher status by walking all over him. It was horrible, and if Walky can shrug it off and just go on his merry way worrying about his semi-sister, I don’t see why he’d deny Billie the agency to do the same thing.
(Because he’s a little kid looking for an adult to blame for this problem and Ruth is the easiest target)
That is a very good point about the Walky/Billie dynamics. I’m actually really impressed by the fact that Walky doesn’t seem to bear Billie any ill will about their high school experience (the phrase “stuffed into lockers” has been used).
But one point about that – Walky sees perfectly well that Billie CAN’T shrug it off like he did, that she is NOT doing well. That has been his underlying worry basically half of the comic, the growing realisation that Billie is not OK and growing worse.
I suspect ‘stuffed into lockers’ is metaphorical, because I’ve never seen a locker that can fit my slight frame in spite of going to a Good high school with a real budget.
BUt no, not quite. Billie did shrug off a fair chunk of the shitty, abusive behavior (we /are/ seeing Walky 6 months or more after Billie’s worst, after all, backed up with actual social status) The only reason we have to think that’s the source of her problems is, well. Walky. And I don’t generally trust the say-so of a man who proudly sprints away from feels as to why a feel is occuring, much less when it runs counter to my observations (with a better vantage point as a viewer).
I wonder if Billie and Walkie are a couple in the sense of this was an abusive relationship. Even the abuse is clearly over, Walkie still has a connection with Billie which sometimes over-rides his relationship with Dorothy, much to Dorothy’s mystification. Her reactions in the panels are somewhat less than happy? Bemused?
Walkie clearly has problems opening up to Dorothy. Now this may be wholly a male thing, but I also wonder if it’s also partly as a result of the abuse he received at the hands of Billie.
That’s a good question. Maybe Walky has the experience of bottling up his feelings – I doubt Sal was a positive subject in his house, and he’s learned that Billie, while obviously fronting about it, doesn’t care for his “unpopular”ness, and now he and Dorothy are not even sure what they are actually so it may be like “we’ll break up at the end of the year, what’s the point of me sharing my feelings”
I’m also a little curious as to why he didn’t have it out with Billie when she crawled into his bed. Why couldn’t he be sure that his admonition of Billie (if that’s what he did) wouldn’t stick?
Why go to Ruth?
I think I’ve answered my question already: he sees Billie as the powerful one and telling her off – showing some anger or any feeling – would be out of bounds for him. I think she crawled out of bed, he waved good bye with no word, then he went to Ruth ….
Because he did. Though I don’t know exactly what you mean by “have it out with”.
He tried to get her to talk. He asked her questions. She didn’t respond, even in monosyllable. Or move. He was freaking out. He couldn’t reach her. Admittedly he didn’t really know how to, but he can’t really be expected to.
So he went for help.
BTW, Billie didn’t crawl out of bed and leave. She didn’t move or respond until he brought Ruth back.
My mistake, I did not go to the next day’s panels.
When I say “have it out with her” I mean, talk to her about why she was in his bed. Ask her not to do it again, that *kind* of thing. I’d be a little curious at the very least. He could have done so when she came around a little later.
Also interesting that Billie was in control of the situation until Ruth arrived.
@Willoughby: I don’t think Walky was upset with her about that after his initial alarm at finding her there. Once he ruled out the most obvious reason for her to be there, he was only worried about her because he’d never seen her like that, and obviously something was very wrong.
In all fairness to Walky, he has incentive to keep Dorothy at arm’s length, due to the agreed-upon nature of their relationship. Opening up to Dorothy would get him more invested in a relationship that is supposed to end eventually.
His relationship with Billie, on the other hand, is a much safer investment.
Hmm, interesting point and if not her, we also know his family are not terribly big on supporting kids in emotional crisis and largely rewarded him for the ways in which he didn’t experience emotional crisis or doubts and was just a “good kid”, which probably didn’t help his natural inclinations for reaching out.
That’s an amazing analysis of the situation and their histories.
(And totally agree on Daisy, like holy fuck, her actions there were straight up awful, pulling the same sexual harassment shit she just went through when she opened up to her looking for help and advice and to victim-blame her afterwards as a desperate attempt to save her own position was a total holy fuck moment and likely kept Billie from seeking out official school resources for dealing with all the stuff she was dealing with).
Oh shit, it was in the same comment. Yeah, Daisy was being pretty fucking awful there. I try and just ignore it like I try to ignore a lot of folks problems, like ’em or not, since it didn’t feel like the narrative point, but jesus.
I dunno, I doubt it affected Billie’s later decisions, but I could easily see how it would
even more worrying is the number of commenters taking his side, as though “this suicidally depressed person is a jerk for being depressed and it’s clearly her fault my friend is also depressed” is a respectable position to have.
I’ve lived Ruth’s depression. Seeing her completely shut down is basically me staring back three years ago where I didn’t care enough to function, and I’m starting to fall back into that in a lot of ways that scare the fuck out of me.
Walky wants to protect Billie, he went to Ruth because she’s supposed to push some kind of positive change forward, and instead Billie’s in a worse place. Now Joyce is talking about how she has to support them to earn her way out of being a bigot, and what Walky is hearing is that the suicide pact his best friend is currently involved in is a good thing.
Also, I’m gonna say a lot of us siding with Walky are expressing our dissatisfaction with the way Ruth has abused Billie previously.
Today was a really bad day for me, but I also brought a dog back to its home so, uh, yay. I was all set to be miserable for the rest of the day and then an Irish Terrier started following me around. Kind of a mood whiplash.
Frankly, where it’s pissing me off is that I’ve watched Walky be a shit for the last… what, 3 weeks? Four? The commentariat has fallen all over itself to keep finding ways he’s right, about literally everything. And here he is, saying “fuck you for trying to avoid your bigotry, I want to be mad at Ruth some more because of a situation I know nothing about – so little about, that as far as I know, I sent someone to go see the source (according to me) of her problem. *I* clearly know everything about what’s wrong here, now, though. Unlike before”
I’m not saying he’s right. I’m saying he’s understandable. He does know more of the situation than Joyce does. Neither of them knows the full story.
But it’s a secret relationship – banned because of potential abuse of power. Ruth is known by all of them as Ruthless – scary RA who threatens her charges. It’s not clear how much either knows or remembers of the early abuse of Billie specifically – though she did just mention “threw me on a chair” to Walky. Who is also suicidal.
And Joyce is cheering this on?
I mean, I get why she’s doing that and it’s a good part of her development. I also get why it pisses him off.
Wasn’t it just a little while back we were all talking here about how toxic Ruth and Billie’s relationship was? Now we’re mad at Walky for thinking it’s a bad thing?
Hell, if I walked into that knowing only what Walky knows about them, I’d be thinking worse. The only thing that would give me pause from assuming Ruth had coerced or bribed or otherwise manipulated her into sex would be how Billie was clinging to her. And that’s not at all definitive.
Yes. *YOU* all were. Meanwhile I’ve been in a shitty headspace with a partner who was in a shitty headspace. One in which the omnipresence of stone barriers on bridges were a literal lifesaver. When there was like, two people who voiced any approval of the relationship, /after/ the lesbian suicide pact, those were days where the commentariat was a god damn delight to read, let me tell you what.
Half of that is shit Walky doesn’t know. And he’s not even saying it now. Incidental accuracy means little given how much of this is phrased in actual support of him. And it’s not even what pisses me off the most about him in particular.
Headspace stuff is always shitty. Here’s hoping that improves shortly. You are an awesome, wonderful person and I hope you keep winning the battle against the headspaces. As does your partner.
And yeah, fully agree that I’m just not seeing the signs in his dialogue here that he even has half the information the commentariat has. And his deduction skills for all his bragging have frequently been… let’s just say god awful to say the least of it. So I’m not really buying he’s sussed it all out from dorm rumors and Billie’s stray comment about being thrown into a chair.
I don’t think anyone’s literally blaming Ruth for having depression. I’ve had depression (and I think most of us have experienced it at some point too), and I’ve screwed up quite a few situations due the severity at times. I think what people are saying is, even though you shouldn’t be too hard on yourself, your actions still have effects on people.
As many people have pointed out, Ruth and Billie’s relationship is unhealthy because of the power differential, but also because the way it started, Billie was taking care of Ruth in the end, AND Billie eventually took it upon herself to hide both their issues, but mostly Ruth’s because Ruth would lose her job otherwise. Billie was not the RA there. She had no way of knowing how to handle it (and she didn’t handle it that well). Ruth was the one who was trained to handle it, and hiding things and never asking for help is not a good trait of an RA, even though she had depression.
Ruth was not at all in a place to be an RA, Ruth did not do her job of helping Billie through the usual channels – telling her higher ups, giving her resources to counseling (remember Billie is rich and can afford this) etc. I know about Ruth’s story and I empathize a lot with her, but how is Billie holding up in all this – already having depression/drinking problems, no coping mechanisms, and now her partner who she loves/is dependent on is suicidal – the point is that I feel for Ruth, but Ruth is not the *only* person being affected here. Billie must be devastated.
Even though Walky doesn’t know half the story that I just told, he’s also worried for Billie’s well being too, which is fair. Another commenter made a good point about, how when people interact now more often than not a “side” is taken and people make too many assumptions on a single opinion – two things can be true at once. Ruth is not responsible for having depression, but I think her relationship with Billie is also not healthy for either of them.
Ruth has hurt Billie a lot and then Joyce is all “yes but its yuri so that makes it okay.” If my best friend was in an abusive relationship/literal suicide pact I’d probably be a little curt with outsiders defending it too.
I took Joyce’s comment as “this is the way I feel, but I think it might be wrong, so I don’t really know what to do.”
As for Ruth and Billie: it’s true that their relationship started off as abusive, but (to the extent that they still have a relationship) I don’t think that’s the case anymore, and in my opinion (I don’t really have any experience/education with all of this) their relationship isn’t making their issues any worse than they would be otherwise. Both of them were depressed alcoholics on a downward spiral before the relationship started (no matter which point you choose as the actual starting point
Completely my own emotional history at play here but: Goddamn it Walky learn how to have any negative emotion at all ever be scared without using fear to fuel anger and doing a shitload of splash damage to people who have nothing to goddamn well do with the fucking situation!
Grah, I hate that toxic masculinity bullshit of men are only ever allowed to have anger as a negative emotion because fucking hell that toxic masculinity rule on its own is a huuuge chunk of why I wound up spending the night under a pier in sub-zero weather with only a T-shirt on because it was safer and more pleasant than being at home with my father who was upset with some work thing and using it as an excuse to pick fights in hopes he’d get an excuse to beat me up, put holes in the wall next to my head, and/or threaten to kill me. Again.
(See also: this is what I mean when I say my dad was a Blaine when I was a kid)
I am over-reacting to Walky, but my father’s abusive jackass behavior is exactly what Walky is doing, only with the intensity dial turned up to 11.
And on the other hand, I get where he’s coming from. Guy is terrified if he has even a shred of care and empathy for Billie in his body. And he does, as much as he tries to shut that part of him off because feels.
Buuut yeah. Walky has a bad habit of taking his upset emotions out on people who genuinely don’t deserve it (in this case: He feels weak and powerless, so when Joyce gives him an opening, he makes a snide remark to imply she’s incompetent to handle the situation, both to cover the fact that he actually is incompetent and to make himself feel more powerful – yeah, I wasn’t able to comfort well, but at least I know better than Joyce), and it is a thing that brings up shades of my father.
FUDGE YOU BLAI…. FUDGE YOU ISCHEMEGEEK’S FATHER!!!!!!!
So sorry about that. And I completely agree with that toxic masculinity bullshit. Hopefully I think Walky is in a good place to learn how bad it is and find a better script to function as a human.
*appropriate physical gesture of support* Fuck Blaine types and the way they create climates of fear for their children and sorry for everything you went through.
And yeah, I think the arc for all of the guy characters outside of Ethan (and maybe Mike/Jacob?) is “hi there toxic masculinity, funny to see you here, maybe I should actually slowly get rid of you someday so long as doing so doesn’t make me look too unmanly”, which is a common struggle for most men coming of age because toxic masculinity is so ingrained in our culture*.
And that can be frustrating for those of us who’ve experienced violence because of that toxic masculinity and that viewpoint of the only good emotion is anger (as a trans woman, I’m intimately aware of how my life can be at threat anywhere I go because of fragile toxic masculinity).
*It’s interesting that the two characters who’ve made the most progress on this are also the two queer guy characters, because they’ve had to deal with how their attractions alone make them “unmanly” in the eyes of toxic masculinity and that has allowed them to be more in touch with the other aspects of themselves toxic masculinity demanded they stop being in touch with (Ethan with openly liking things like pink and glitter on occasion, Danny with being more comfortable about the fact that he’s an empathetic fellow who deeply feels things sometimes).
Joyce: Honest to a fault. I can understand the conflict of feelings though. Sort of like the high a person gets when they first join a religion I think. You’re excited for a new world of thought and you want to do a good job and yadda yadda – then you normalize and balance out. Or crash hard.
ah man, walky completely failing to be self aware always gets me. seriously. Ruth is 2 years older than Billie… but since she’s an “adult” he already had this set of expectations about what she should be like, and when she didn’t live up to them he got pissed.
But yeah maybe JOYCE should consider some nuance, huh, Walky.
Walky, don’t act like that, please.
Everyone has their own problems, and you can’t blame Ruth for you not knowing the context of the situation and jumping to conclusions.
Although, being fair, I do feel like Ruth and Billie should have shared their situation with more people.
In short, no one is blameless in this, but, Walky, you don’t have to act like a dick about it.
She’s already learned this weekend that her instincts are not great on this stuff (such as Jocelyn having to tell her not to burn Becky’s bridges for her, and Joyce only just stopping herself from getting into an argument with her mom when she made Becky wear that dress.
She’s realizing that she has more to sort out, so she’s (literally) looking to Dorothy for some help, since she’s been far more on the ball on this front.
As for HOW she’s saying this, I agree that the way she’s phasing it feels unusual for her. However, I think it fits with WHY she’s saying it. She has quite likely been doing some reading lately to try to learn how to be the best possible ally for Becky. Her reaction reminded her of something she read, so she’s phrasing it more like that than how she would talk normally.
I kinda like Joyce’s take. “I’m an ex-bigot, so I’ma just gonna shut up and let things go as they will.” If only the bigots would do the same, the world would be a much better place.
Nuance is fine, once the bigotry is out of the way. Walky is right that a RA shouldn’t be sleeping with a student, regardless of the genders involved. Or drinking with a student, also regardless of the genders involved, but that issue hasn’t come up for air yet.
While I think Ruth/Billee ultimately helped each other and have a relationship with some great elements, and appreciate the hypocrisy of Walky telling Joyce to see the nuance of this situation- though Joyce also isn’t- I have to admit that he has some points.
Objectively, from a student like Walky’s perspective, Ruth is not a good RA. With few exceptions, she’s overlooked problems on her floor, been oblivious to them, or bullied her students. She has helped Billee more than Walky knows, but she hasn’t been the authority figure she is meant to be for most of the students, her relationship with Billee aside. It’s no doubt exacerbated by her depression, which is unfortunate, but that doesn’t mean the students under her don’t suffer because of it.
At the same time, her relationship with Billee, while VERY MUCH NOT the source of Billee’s problems or Ruth’s, did contribute to lowering her objectivity about Billee. Speaking from experience RA’s need to be ready to make hard calls to get students help and support if the student isn’t equipped to reach out when they need it. Being personally/romantically invested in someone under your RA-ship makes it harder to do that. Other power dynamics aside, Ruth became less able to report Billee’s emotional state, or deal with her own, because she was invested in their romantic relationship and afraid of the consequences in case they got caught. And the relationship put Ruth at risk, as seen with Mary’s bullshit, which certainly didn’t help things. So instead of being an objective “adult” authority figure a student like Walky expected when he reported his concerns about Billee, she was worrying about a relationship. And, given what he knows about their relationship so far, Walky has no evidence that the relationship was good for them, since Walky’s only context is speaking to Ruth, hearing they met with Ruth slinging Billee around, and now they have ended up in the medical center.
Of course Ruth’s emotional and mental state isn’t her fault, and she didn’t cause Billee’s emotional problems, and Walky is missing those details. But it’s been acknowledged for awhile that Ruth entering a relationship with Billee has presented professional and some ethical problems. And the net gain for Ruth and Billee might outweigh those problems. But it also presented problems and consequences, which aren’t erased “just” because Ruth is understandably overwhelmed and struggling with depression. He’s being an unfair dick about it, but, frankly, Walky isn’t pointing out anything that Ruth, Billee, and a lot of readers weren’t already confronting.
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Adults shouldn’t be the source of problems? Walky, I have some VERY BAD NEWS for you
Seriously. This is the Dumbiverse. Adults are the source of all problems.
I mean that’s pretty much how the real world works too.
No I’m pretty sure nature is the source of at least of them in the real world.
Have to agree with Mandy on this one. IRL, we pretty much have a handle on most of the ‘natural’ recurring problems in the world (of course, the ones we don’t, are the REALLY BIG ONES). It’s human-caused problems that give us the most trouble.
For example, which would you say has been the worst problem to plague the Obama administration,
a) Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, and droughts (OCFTW), or
b) Benghazi?
Droughts and the agricultural collapse that come with them – that is, argue some people (climatologist and political theorists of climate) why Syria is at war now – not enough food.
Also, which is an avoidable problem?
OTOH, climate change is human caused, so we wrap back around.
DESTROY NATURE!
For what it’s worth, a lot more people have died in the U.S. from flooding during Obama’s administration than died during the attack in Benghazi (see: http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/hazstats.shtml)
Benghazi has been a much greater problem politically, but that’s a different matter.
Ooh, I get it! Willis is a Finaglist. He converted to the First United Church of Finagle, whose prime tenet is that the perversity of the universe tends to the maximum.
He’s extended the doctrine to the metaverse, that’s all — the perversity of ANY universe tends to the maximum.
Great Finagle’s Feet, he’s surpassed Murphy in expressing Finagle’s truths…
There is no god but Finagle, and WILLIS is his META-Prophet!
Yes, I’m a Resistentialist, how’d you know?
wait so our world doesn’t have adults causing problems…… i must not realize something i should.
They don’t cause every problem.
…although i suppose booze is a cause of problems in the dumbiverse, too
Children don’t usually make booze, I guess.
Brody? Izzat you?
At least in my family, children haven’t been making most of the booze since 1929. Though, for nearly a decade, they had a near monopoly on making booze.
There can be a line separating adults from those who are merely grownups
Specially the toe shaped ones.
He was the source of a small number of problems.
The problems themselves were rather large, of course.
If you want to be pedintic about it.
*flees for dear punning life*
I think you mean ‘podantic’.
(Hee hee, pedantic about a foot-pun on ‘pedantic’. It’s a good day!!)
Latin: “Pedis”, meaning “of or related to the foot”.
You could say it was a fairly pedestrian pun.
Fémurs.
That one’s pretty leg-it, too.
Really, Butts? Now Willis is going to prove you wrong by writing a storyline where Riley and Howard come back and cause problems on their own, and it’s all your fault.
Oh no! Please don’t bring Riley back, Mr. Willis, that would be horrible
Oh, anything but that! And not just Riley, but Howard, too?! Alas, we are well and truly fucked!
And don’t throw her in that briar patch, Mr. Willis! Oh, mercy!
(Brer Willis? I’m done now.)
He’s as full of illusions as Joyce when it comes to adults, eh ?
Also, you are an adult, Walky.
Only technically!
I suspect there are a great many adults that are only technically adults.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think Walky already has shown himself able to master the details of adultery.
All but one.
Well, you did ask, so…you’re wrong. Neither Walky nor Dorothy is married, so it is fornication, not adultery.* It is suggested, though, that Walky has got the details of fornication down quite well. So he may only be technically an adult, but he is an enthusiastic fornicator. (*Hair-splitting not valid in certain fundie circles in which pre-marital hanky-panky is considered cheating on your future spouse because some pastors want to accuse teenagers of adultery instead of fornication for some reason)
I think in this particular case, “adult-ery” was tongue-in-cheek.
Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is not.
You’re only young and foolish once, but if you play your cards right it can last well into senility.
You can’t be old and wise if you’re never young and foolish
Ruth: “Pass on both.”
Growing up, and growing old, are both mandatory in a physiological sense.
In a mental/emotional sense, however…
lol
Obligatory Doubleclicks reference
Students don’t count.
Go Joyce! PRAISE THEM LESBIANS!
Or, you know… half lesbians?
Super triple decker Lesbians, Becky overcompensates for Dina’s passive nature
we’re living in a world of Dina
It’s the only one with world peace so far
and the dinosaurs are back but they have tea parties with us
What about the denialsaurs?
HAHA WHAT DENIALSAURS!?
Wait, if Walky got kicked out, where’s Dina?
WHERE IS DINA I DON’T SEE HER
nobody sees dina.
Dina wasn’t kicked out. The lab coats didn’t notice her.
I can just picture her quietly standing off to one side as a doctor talks to Ruth. They seem preoccupied, so Dina says nothing.
Ruth knows Dina is still there, but continues to not care about things, so she also says nothing.
Billie keeps looking back and forth between the doctor and Dina, who is RIGHT THERE HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THE DINOSAUR GIRL SHE’S RIGHT THERE
Seriously, who draped the anatomically correct human skeleton with a dinasaur hoodie?
Usual place, most likely.
but could we be living in a world of butts?
Yes, I believe we in fact already are…and many of them hold their own opinions. 😛
You, of all people, forgot about the butts.
Hell, Becky overcompensates for a couple of straight people. Becky, Joyce, Dorothy – on average, they’re lesbian. She’s a 25 on a 6 point scale.
As a bisexual I must say I don’t think I’m half lesbian… if anything, lesbians are half bisexual! 😀
(seriously though don’t call people “half” anything, it’s not fun being on the receiving end of it)
A bi person asked me once: “Don’t you think you’re missing something by not being attracted to half the human race?”
My response: “So… you’re attracted to every single human?”
Her: “…. Oh.”
Boy, did I just SERIOUSLY misinterpret Ronnie’s statement the 1st time I read it. It’s the hazard of reading these comments before I have any caffeine coursing through me.
I read the last half of the final sentence and thought “boy that’s sad, to be bisexual but think it’s no fun to be on the receiving end from both guys and girls.”
Then the brain cells kicked in and remembered the first half of the sentence and said “no, it’s not fun being on the receiving end of being called ‘half.'”
Then the brain cells really kicked in and said “boy that was stupid, wasn’t it? Find some caffeine…”
Commencing immediate IV infusion of Diet Pepsi…
Lesb? Ians? (Good thing we have words like “bisexual” and “cute queer lady romance” for situations just like this! I bequeath them to you, Umbrella Paint! And I hope someone bequeaths them to Joyce soon, because she’s been introduced to the concept but not the lingo. Maybe she got something from the momentous meet-n-greet at the pizza party for QUILTBAG questioning on that significant Sunday lo those many strips ago.)
I’m not sure we’ve actually seen Joyce misusing the words. She seems to either refer to the relationships themselves (“That’s their boyfriend/girlfriend) or whatever they’ve told her they identify as (Becky a lesbian, Ethan gay). If I’m forgetting an instance, feel free to correct me, but I can’t seem to recall one.
She did quite a bit of research regarding it being a sin, so she might have learned some other things as well.
Yeah the most significant misuse of lesbian for bisexual I recall in the strip itself was “sexy lesbian suicide pact” – where it was one of the bisexual girls involved misusing the term.
To be fair, Ruth hasn’t exactly put a hard label on her sexuality yet. She’s had a boyfriend, she macked on Ryan in the Walkyverse, and now she’s crawling up into Billie’s boobs so she can be safe and warm forever. Her brother also assumed she was a lesbian, and Ruth expressed that she wasn’t sure but also didn’t really care about figuring it out.
Joyce also assumed Dina was gay before Dina expressed that gender expression was probably irrelevant, and Becky chimed in that liking both was actually a thing.
It’s still a lesbian relationship, even if they’re both bisexual.
What. No. No, it is not. My current partner is a man and I’m a queer woman. That does not mean that I’m in a straight relationship. A lesbian relationship is a relationship between lesbians.
ahahaha no
It’s a same-sex relationship, not a lesbian relationship.
That is not how it works. My partner and I aren’t in a straight relationship because I am not straight. We’re in an opposite-sex relationship.
no. that’s erasure. it’s called a same-gender relationship.
It’s wlw, but it’s not a lesbian relationship
or bisexuals.
PRAISE THEM WITH GREAT PRAISE!
JOYCE
JOYCE
LIFE IS COMPLICATED
And fricking hard.
Darn adults. Always adulting things up.
I’d have gotten clean away with that cookie jar, if it wasn’t for you meddling Adults!.
Adults these days…
adults. the solution to and cause of all of lives problems.
this is my favorite response so far.
Billy made a great choice making Walky her Emergency Contact
She didn’t have a lot of nearby choices, rather.
Moreso she was savvy enough to know her parents don’t give a shit, and she wasn’t going to bother the Walkertons with it, because they’d just call her parents.
David Walkerton: Master of Nuance and Subtlety.
And tact. Don’t forget tact.
Joyce, you are too precious.
What has she got in her pockettetses, my precious?
Joyce and Hank wouldn’t know anything about adults being the problem, of course.
Awwww, Dorothy’s light touch of support is beautiful.
Ooooh I hadn’t noticed !
Sympathy via light physical contact.
Kudos to Dorothy for not going down the jealous route re: Billie crawling into bed w Walky, even though he never told her.
Walky, honey, you need a cold splash of reality yourself.
Yeah, he’s pissing me off right now.
At least he is not pissing behind his back.
reality is the horrible thing you have to work in to try and accomplish something beyond it even if you know you never will
And that’s why escapism is awesome.
We’re all just kids Walky….we’re all just kids.
I get the feeling that at one point everyone starts to pretend they are mature because they feel they are suppose to even though in their heart they are never truely going to grow up.
It’s partly that. It’s also partly that when you’re treated like a kid, you act like a kid, but when you’re treated like an adult, you find that you’re actually pretty capable of adulting when you have to. And also, when I talk to teenagers or newly-minted adults about their problems, I realise that I have in fact learnt things, in the longer time I’ve been on earth, that I can use to help them. You can get wiser and more mature and not notice it, until someone who’s definitely less so appears as a contrast.
Right. They are eighteen and they are treated like kids: Rooms assigned, meals prepared, problems to be solved by RAs etc. In other countries, when you go to university, you’ve got to find a flat or flatshare for youself and then organize your life and meals on your own. Helps a lot in growing up.
I wonder. It’s a transitional phase. They also take on a lot of adulting that was previously handled by parents. Walky’s revelation that he could skip class and not get yelled at by his parents, for example.
Does not also making them find the flat and do all the meals, etc, make it harder or does it give them room to figure it out one step at a time? I wonder which system is more likely to have problems?
I found a flat (apartment) and did all my meals when I left high school! The school I went to first was a tech school, and they didn’t have dormitories. The cafeteria meals were way beyond what my budget could afford. My parents helped me buy my first car ($600), mostly to make sure I didn’t get dicked over just because I was a kid buying a car, and also gave me the first month rent and deposit on my apartment (also $600, as the rent was $300). After that, I was on my own for sorting shit out.
I ate a lot of Little Debbies and Walmart-brand Mountain Dew. :p And then I got the first cavity of my life ever, realized I couldn’t live on sugar even though it was all my Walmart paycheck would accommodate, and switched to mac & cheese. :p
I grew into one of those old timers who really, really do think too many kids don’t understand the meaning of hard work – not because school work isn’t hard (I managed to stay an honor student through four college degrees), but because having to kick your ass through hunger (I also lost a shit ton of weight that first couple years out of the house, from not being able to afford food, and my ribs were showing before my mom noticed and made me do something about it) to pay for rent AND stay on top of school made me realize what I could do, if I needed to.
My downstairs neighbors in that first apartment were drug users, and their dealer frequently blocked the only driveway while he unloaded his merchandise. I scraped the shit out of my car’s exhaust and undercarriage driving across the lawn and over the curb to go to work without having to confront him. I was parked out of our driveway when I came home from work one morning, had to park on the street for the two hours it took me to take a shower and get ready for school, and found a $70 parking ticket on my car for parking on the street in the winter. When I went to pay it, I protested it to the cop at the desk, and she said “you’ll have to take that up with your neighbors.” Lesson learned in authority figures not being there to help you out.
I had friends who were homeless while in school, because they couldn’t find rent they could afford and still afford gas to go to work. (Yes, they were working and homeless. One worked two jobs, went to school, and was homeless.) I met two girls who shared an apartment and thus afforded rent but couldn’t afford heat, so they slept at school and went home to take cold showers and change clothes. Lesson learned in being able to still push through with studies while being disadvantaged.
Between then and now, I’ve been through unstable housing, unsafe housing, bankruptcy, being without reliable transportation, and having a kid. We had our kid while things were going good, and as per usual, everything shit the bed at once, at the same time our rent was jacked up, and now we’re living with my husband’s parents because we can’t afford anything but the token rent we’re giving them each month. Lesson learned in life.
I know how kids get wound up about any one of those things. It really fucking hurts the first time you’re slapped in the face with it. I imagine it would have hurt worse if I had made it through my 20s without any hardship and then been smacked with it when I left school with a shiny, high-priced degree and no job. I don’t know if that makes it better or worse. Maybe it’s worse, because there was a longer period of expectation, plus stability through the bulk of their formative years? Maybe it’s harder to adapt to change and instability if you don’t have to confront it until you’re nearing that so-called “peak” of maturity in your mid-late 20s, when we’re supposed to neurologically be “adults”?
I don’t know. I’m a fan of a more stepped transition period rather than our current staggered one (raise the age of majority to 20, lower the drinking age to 20, raise the full driver’s license age to 20) that adds additional training in high school for driving, managing finances (household ones, including doing personal taxes, not bullshit econ classes), understanding rental agreements, etc. Instead of “first year experience” courses at public colleges and universities, I would continue on from the high school courses with business management, loan management and purchasing long-term items like houses and new cars. Public schools at both the high school and university level would have health and human performance classes instead of some generic “phy ed,” and both would be taught from an equality-based standard that’s consistent with contemporary understanding of the science of the human body AND non-discrimination legislation.
I suspect basically none of my ideas will ever be put into practice, between the schools protesting they don’t have the funding for it and the parents protesting that it’s none of the school’s business/responsibility to teach those things and leave their precious snowflakes alone. :p Which dumps us back on our current set of problems.
A lot of that sounds pretty rough. Congratulations on making it through.
But it’s anecdotal evidence at best. I’d want to see numbers. I know there’s a lot of evidence that hunger and lack of sleep and other stressors directly impact performance in school. I wonder how many people in that situation wind up failing out because they can’t handle it all at once who would have been okay facing those hurdles one at a time.
The idea that more homelessness among college kids is good because it makes them learn lessons about unsafe housing and facing hardships strikes me as insane. We know damn well that homelessness at a younger age is a set up for failure, even if some people manage to tough it out and make it through. I’d be shocked if the same isn’t true for college age kids.
Plenty do! The homeless students I knew seriously struggled, and one gave up on getting his full degree. My issues contributed to me having to take Accounting twice to pass it during my first degree. (Math is not my strong suit when I’m tired, and wrangling a computer program to do money math turned out to be even less so.)
I’d like to see the numbers, too! If anything, I suspect it would point to the need for full community support, not just getting more dorms built or offering more loans for housing/food/counseling/etc. Homelessness stems from a lot of factors, and “affordable housing” is just one of them. Should a college student be sleeping in his car in the Walmart parking lot, or (literally) in a van down by the river? No. But should an adult, a college grad, or a veteran be living in those situations? No. And the same struggles often apply to all of them. For some, a hand up into new housing helps; for many, it does not, and they face persistent trouble with employment and housing, because they have many other issues besides initial financial trouble going on.
I don’t think every college student should have to experience homelessness, but I do think they need to learn that the things they’re enjoying in a dorm are serious privileges. Instead of hiring janitorial staff, dorms should be on a rotating duty policy, so the students have to clean up after themselves (and yes, that means Joyce would have to clean up hairballs in the shower at some point). Burned macaroni at 3 AM means the student responsible needs to talk to the fire department, not the building manager. Instead of reminder after reminder after reminder about work study opportunities, the school needs to post them in one community place and teach the students to go there to find the posting and go through a proper application process for the job.
College should be about walking them through the process of becoming a knowledgeable, competent adult. Right now, a college degree is worth jack and shit without two to five years of experience along with it, because employers think students come out of college knowing “nothing.” The two to four years you put into your degree doesn’t count, because it wasn’t in the “real world.” And, to an extent, I understand their frustration – college students regularly get second chances, “late points,” swapped assignments and other aids they would not get in the “real world.” Employers, by and large, want the obedient, quiet workers K-12s try to turn out. Universities try to turn out independent thinkers. We spend 13 years teaching kids “do as I say, and do it this way, and it’s right.” Then we spend another two to four years teaching them, “We’re going to hold your hand, but we want you to do things your way and find the best answer for you.” Then we boot them out the door to a culture that says, “Nobody’s fucking holding your hand, shut up and get to work. Oh, don’t have a job? GET A JOB, you fucking loser.” College is unfortunately the only place where we can reasonably expect to teach them to endure the harshness of the post-college world while still getting them the knowledge and experience high school didn’t provide. It’s a shitty situation for colleges to be in, but until something changes in the larger culture, that’s what we’re stuck with.
Plus after a year or so of dorm life, some students decide to move into apartments with roommates or their boyfriend or girlfriend anyway–often it’s cheaper, for one thing. Then there are those who still live with their parents and go to a nearby college. So it’s not all dorms all the way through college, even in the US.
Walky talking to Joyce about nuance. That’s funny.
#ThatsTheJoke
And also right the constant adversarial attitude will cause more problems than it will solve. Though it’s nice to see Joyce is aware she’s overcompensating.
Ruth is hardly an adult either. She’s like, maybe two-three years older than Billie.
2. She’s 20.
But she’s been put in a position of responsibility. In a way, Walky’s right. He did the right thing when he tried to help Billie before and it backfired because Ruth was screwing up her job.
I’ve got a lot of sympathy for why she was doing so, but it’s a little unreasonable to expect Walky to see that.
More like screwing on the job
To be fair to Ruth, she isn’t really an adult. Heck as weird as this is to me, I am older than her (when did this happen?) and still shouldn’t be trusted with a pet hamster.
You’ve been placed on the pet offender list now.
Uuummm… who gets to shatter that little world view of Walky’s? Dorothy, Joyce, or Hank? Oh who am I kidding it will be Mike in order to get that panel time.
Nah, Mike is busy making that plan of his, he’ll get that panel times when he’ll execute it.
Sal.
Totally Sal.
I predict it’s going to end up with him having to choose which side to come down on and realizing that Sal is right about a lot of shit and then going all toxic masculinity about everything and doing a lot of splash damage in the process. Because Walky.
Yeah, that all checks out.
Hell, Sal is the one that’s actually gotten him to the step of lying in bed actually thinking through stuff and reassessing his rosy memories of the past, so if there’s anyone who’s gonna break all the way through to him, it’s definitely going to be her and he’s definitely going to flail and sputter all the way to self-awareness when it all crashes down for him.
Because that’s who Walky is now and thus that’s the main root for him to get to maturity and being the type of man-child people don’t passively despise because of all their displaced toxicity.
The adult world view? Already been shattered, and that’s why he’s complaining.
Joyce needing to learn nuance? Valid.
Walky being in a position to lecture Joyce about learning nuance? I’d say Joyce would do it, except she’s too worried to get sidetracked by that.
*looks around for some Men At Work*
“Adults shouldn’t be the source of problems” me thinks he means more ‘adults’ than just Ruth. Specifically, his parents. I can’t help but kind of enjoy his feelings here. There IS nuance, especially from Ruth’s end, but seeing Walky like this? It’s nice! He really does care for Billie.
His parents. Billie’s parents. Hell, Ruth’s grandfather, though he doesn’t know that.
The adults he referring to here and that he’s upset with and who actually laid a lot of the seeds of Billie’s suffering (and Sal’s and Ruth’s) are a hell of a lot older than Ruth.
Very true! Even though Ruth is the ‘easy’ target for him right now, Ruth really is only older than them by a year. Walky himself bought pajama jeans on a whim earlier in the comic. Perhaps as an RA, it is Ruth’s job to help Billie (my own RAs didn’t do much for me, and her job would also entail not dating Billie but again, nuance. Things get complex.) but honestly Ruth is ill prepared. Just as Carla was. I don’t think very many people, no matter the age, are prepared to help those with depression and suicidal thoughts. Mistakes WILL be made, and I say this as a Psychology graduate who struggles to support friends with depression.
It really is sad how most parents are the source of their children’s pain. Billie’s, Walky and Sal’s, Becky’s dad, Amber’s dad, Ruth’s grandpa, Joyce’s parents (even the well-meaning Hank)…
Every generation / blames the one before…
(Also, nitpick. Mike bought Walky the pajama jeans. To be nice.)
Oddly enough, that I remember. And yes, to be ‘nice‘.
My mistake, sorry! I meant it more to point out how Walky is a bit impulsive. A year’s difference won’t change that side of him too much I think, like he won’t suddenly be totally mature and wise. But, you’re right, Mike technically bought those pants.
Well, rightly so. They are making your cards. It’s still your own play you have to make with them. Deal it.
And they, in turn, blame both the one before and the one after.
That’s kind of an inversion. Usually generations blame the ones AFTER them. It’s really only Millenials and some Xers who blame their predecessors.
Well, not ‘only’ only, but it’s the only one I’m familiar with.
It’s REALLY not common. You usually see romanticization of the past, not demonization.
(In fairness, there’s not really a defined generation after millenials yet. I feel reasonably confident we’ll see /that/ in 20 years.)
I don’t know. I seem to remember that the Boomers blamed their parents for the state of the world they were rebelling against, back in the 60s and 70s. They certainly weren’t blaming the Xers yet.
Maybe it’s that every generation blames their elders when they’re young and the next generations once they’re not. 🙂
Hahaha, that’s funny. You’re funny.
No. Prior generations have the weight of social institutions behind them fully – frequently, actually really conceptualizing blame for most things isn’t actually possible. Most people stop at “that’s the way things are” when blame could nominally be applied up. It takes far more than that.
Shoot, the two best known causes are civil rights (Where people generally blamed a more-distant nebulous past, because it was more comfortable, with constant pleas to understand the prior folks), and the anti-war movement (Where even their parents unequivocally /being/ the reason they had all those wars was insufficient for them to really talk about that). Rather than operationalizing things as ‘our parents fucked everything up”, they’d be saying “the system” had.
Ruth is also an easy target because:
1, she has no direct authority over him – thus he risks nothing by challenging or being perceived to challenge her authority.
2, she is a bisexual woman, thus cultural bias says she’s unfit for authority anyway – he’s primed to look for faults in her performance (and unfairly portion blame onto her plate – yes she is somewhat to blame for the situation, but so are Billie’s parents, Walky’s parents, and “Sir”)
3, as you pointed out, Doopyboop, she’s a young adult. Thus social ableism says she’s still basically a child who so happens to be of legal age, and obviously wasn’t ready for the responsibility.
4, Walk does not know her from Adam. Generally it’s easier to see the faults in people you’re not attached to – he’s more likely to make excuses for his and Billie’s parents.
Not really that she’s an easy target, but that she’s the authority he directly went to about the problem and was assured would handle it.
That all makes a lot of sense.
thejeff- I decided to go back and reread the strip where he goes and grabs her:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/04-the-whiteboard-dong-bandit/crazytalk/
Interestingly enough, we get the origins of why he’s assuming she caused the depressive episode because she drops some hints that basically a breakup has occurred and that things might be tied to that.
And we also get that he was kinda ready to blame her for the beginning. Like, she did not say in any way she’d handle it. She said she wouldn’t handle it and then he went off on her about how unfair it was that he’d have to actually have emotional conversations with loved ones and show them emotional support in touchy-feely emotion ways (no, literally, he complains about emotions during his appeal to Ruth and says he doesn’t like feeling them or doing much with them) and straight up accused her of not doing her job which he decided included fixing her charges even if she recognized that her presence might not necessarily be healing for the person involved (or that she had lingering break-up stuff that would make it potentially ugly).
Hell, Ruth only promises that she’ll talk to Billie and pretty much as a “hey, all right, go off to class, I’ll have a word (with the subtext of: even though I have so many misgivings because this is a former lover who lied to my face and broke my heart and I’m really not the person for the job)”, not as a promise that she’ll magically make Billie better and thus save Walky from the hard work of being emotional support.
And that definitely makes his blame somewhat… unfortunate, because he’s mostly mad that he didn’t actually just get to dump the hard work of emotional support on someone else and walk away from having to deal with feelings.
And as ischemgeek notes, Ruth makes a good scapegoat for those feelings and the having of them, because she’s in power just enough to self-justify but also socially marginalized and powerless in enough ways as to be a safe power to be angry and frustrated at.
Right now I wish Walky would care for Billie in a way that doesn’t make me want to punch him.
Just kidding, I love all the poor hopeless kids in this comic.
Except for Mike. I fear Mike.
And Mary. I pity Mary. A very, very little bit.
What about Arnold? What do you feel towards Arnold?
Well… I know he exists (now). Does that count as an emotion?
No, but apathy does.
Nah, I love Mike, too. I just want to take him under my wing and be like, “Okay, your troll level is good, you’re on a steady path right now and not much has backfired on you. But here’s a word of experience: there are bigger trolls out there, and it’s only funny until you meet one of them. Let’s get you on track to up your troll ante.”
Which is troll speak for “this is going to be fun until you’re an actual adult and realize that trolling it SO goddamned stupid.”
Don’t try to stop the trolls, people! Just guide them in the direction of the bigger trolls, until they meet a legit asshole. It totally works to stop trollish behavior in most of them. (And then one runs for President and throws everything off, but right now I think Dorothy and Roz are the only students really paying attention to politics in the DoA-verse.)
I love how simultaneously naive and self-aware Joyce is.
She knows that she doesn’t know. 🙂
To- to be fair Billie had a few problems before Ruth came into the picture.
To be fair, every problem is caused by someone. And most people are adults.
Apologies, not meant to be a reply. Although, it kinda works too… huh.
we’re living in a world of Becky
And TARDISes.
Ahaha… yesterday.
Did a TARDIS just laugh at a point in time? That’s relatively funny.
I’m conflicted whether I should tell people about the context, or let them stay confused. Because confused people are fun.
And kids are also caused by adults, so arguably it’s all the adults’ fault eventually.
Hear. Hear.
Not always.
(Teen pregnancy is a thing, after all.)
Yup, Ruth basically enabled some of her more self-destructive coping mechanisms, but she’s been depressed for a long while now, possibly since or even during high school.
Oh no I’m starting to like Walky
You too, huh? Did he throw a toy at you too?
Let’s hope Chase doesn’t see this comment then.
Unless your birthday is in November or something, you are technically an adult too, Walky.
He might be milking that legal status of “dependent” for all it’s worth though.
I’m assuming Walky is the April Fool in this universe, too.
I feel like Sal’s birthday should be March 31st, though. Walky’s just that much of a slacker.
I like the idea that Sal was born at like, 11:55 pm, thus technically making her a day older than her twin brother.
Nonono. Walky’s birthday is February 29th, which is why he acts like he’s four-and-a-half.
The King? I thought Nuance was an autonomous collective.
You’re fooling yourself. Nuance is living in a dictatorship.
NUANCE, DAMN YOU!!!
Who wants to be the kind soul that links to the bit where Billie crawls into Walky’s bed? Who?
Yo. Gotcha covered.
As if we needed another reason to like butts.
And thank you as well.
Am I supposed to not support Walky here? It’s hard to tell what’s the “right” choice anymore.
I’m supportin Walky for the moment. His ignorance to the world be dammed.
There is no real right choice, especially with regards to Ruth. For insistence, while I feel bad for Ruth and hope she deals with her depression, I still have to acknowledged that she’s an asshole who tosses peoples belongings out of windows.
I’m not denying that Ruth can be an asshole, but I may have missed that particular bit of super-dickery, cause I don’t remember it.
Either that or my mind is finally starting to go…
(just kidding, my memory isn’t all that good but I’m 22)
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/03-up-all-night-to-get-vengeance/no-2/
I think it’s rarely clear (or even all that relevant) who is the “right” choice. I think of this comic as a portrait of complex people, not like a fable with right choices and wrong choices and a moral at the end. (Exception: some characters are presented as unambiguously wrong, such as Blaine, Mary, and Ross.)
Just take the position that everyone here is a fairly decent person that can at times screw up and be insensitive, with varying degrees of likelihood, and then support them all despite their foibles.
Reasonable position high five!
I don’t think I can take that position except in very limited contexts of “here” (such as “the people in today’s comic”). There’s ye olde rapist and Blaine, for a start, neither of whom I’d ever class as “fairly decent”.
That’s the context I meant it in, so we’re all good.
I don’t think it’s quite that black and white. Like Walky is making good points and bad. Ruth is sympathetic and not. Joyce is naive and also rising out of that naivety with good self-awareness.
I see this strip as one of the grayer ones really.
I much prefer Walky when he’s not acting like a child
You don’t get many opportunities for that.
True, you have to appreciate when they happen
Hey, did the hovertext change?
I noticed that too!
Does anyone know what was up with that? I only glanced at it, don’t remember what the other one was.
Perhaps ‘Quiet, Smoove B”?
I think the other one was “ruth you fool”
From tomorrow, I guess.
Hank’s looking on, thinking, “Okay, maybe my little girl is going to Hell with her atheist girlfriend, but at least she isn’t dating that idiot. Could you imagine having him for a son-in-law? What a stupid world that would be.”
That was hilarious.
+1
I suspect the “adults shouldn’t be the source of problems” is hitting Hank a little harder than anything else.
Questing of Age
Amber, Ethan, and Sarah run into the church, where they’re surprised to find the place empty.
Amber: Shouldn’t there be guards or something?
Ethan: Lets just keep moving.
They run down the stairs and enter the church basement (I really hope that Willis’ church had a basement)
The room is dark, with a light shining on a chained Joyce, Becky and Dina.
Joyce raises her head.
Joyce: Sarah, you have to get out of here.
Sarah: Not without you guys!
Joyce: You can’t begin to imagine the amount of power that she’s achieved!
Ethan: Who?
Mary steps out of the shadows.
Amber: Mary!
Ethan: We’ve gotten a lot stronger, we can take her!
Mary: Can you know.
Amber rushes at Mary and tries to kick her in the neck. Mary dodges and sends Amber flying across the room.
Sarah pulls out Other Jacob 2 and slashes at Mary several times. Mary bobs and weaves, evading the attacks.
Ethan pulls out his Windblades and tries stabbing at Mary. Mary grabs his arm and tosses him into the wall.
Ethan: Ugh.
Amber: She is stronger! we’ll have to work together.
Sarah: I’ll hold her front, you guys take her from behind
Sarah rushes at Mary and slashes at her. Mary dodges the attack, turns around quickly, and punches Amber in the stomach.
Ethan attacks her side, managing to get a hit in.
Mary: heh, good shot.
Amber: Why are you helping them Mary, what did they promise you?
Mary: A chance, to prove my true strength again!
Mary forms an energy ball in her hand and tosses it at Amber, who leaps out of the way.
An explosion goes of behind Amber.
Ethan jumps up and unleashes a series of attacks against Mary, Mary dodges while building up energy in her hands. Finally, Mary grabs him with both hands.
Ethan: Shit!
Before Mary can use the energy, Sarah slams her in the face with Other Jacob 2, sending her flying into the wall.
Sarah: Ethan grab Joyce and Becky and run.
Ethan: What about you guys?
Sarah: I can carry Dina.
Suddenly the ceiling starts to creak.
Mary gets back on her feet, and starts to build energy again.
Amber: Mary, you may want to look up.
Mary looks up to see the entire ceiling collapse as Carol and Jocelyn smash through the floor above.
Carol? OOPS
DAMN
Lmao walky, welcome to the real world
Pretty proud of Joyce for openly admitting to her earlier bigotry, and don’t you worry, girl–you’ll figure out who you should and shouldn’t ship one day. Maybe even have an OTP!
…. you mean like all of us know and agree on who we should and shouldn’t be shipping?
Was… was there a… *Shudders.* …a memo? What did it say?
Becky/Dina?
Marcie/Malaya?
Galasso/Dr. Doom/World Domination?
Everyone/Hugs.
That last one is sometimes interpreted instead as a poly V:
Hugs/Everyone/Therapy.
It would have been a triad but Hugs and Therapy have some stuff to work out and aren’t really a good fit when dating each other.
Well, clearly I meant Mary/Mike, but hey. Whatever floats everyone’s boat!
Walky isn’t wrong to be ticked off at Ruth, either…
Good thing he was tactful enough not to air it with Billie or Ruth at this moment.
Yeah, that’s what I’m getting from this. This is more about Walky venting fear and frustration in a safe space than him attempting a nuanced analysis of Billie’s current predicament.
I mean, there was nothing in his interaction with Ruth and Billie who said anything else than Full Support and Freaking the Fuck Out Over Here.
Yeah, awkward and confused though the last couple Walky strips were, there was no hint of blame for Ruth in them.
This just reveals that what he was struggling with was even harder than we realized.
Definitely! The fact that he wasn’t a dick to Ruth and Billie’s face is really key and honestly kind of a major character growth moment for him. I mean, we just had a mini-arc with Carla where we saw how naturally being a dismissive jerk comes to him, so for him to possess the self-awareness to self-censor in important ways when trying to comfort Billie is actually somewhat impressive.
Walky you are an adult.
Amazi-girl Movie (Sneak peek) – Sal’s vendetta trailer
Fade in.
A motorcycle parks outside a slummy bar. Inside the door burst open as a slender woman with void black hair walks in. the patrons, everything from low life to high roller watch as she walks to the bar and removes her helmet.
Bar tender: What are you having?
Sal: vodka, straight, with a cherry.
The bar tender sits her drink in front of her and lights her cigarette as she puts it to her lips.
Bar tender: anything else?
Sal: No. (Her tone is harsh yet thanking.)
A half-drunk biker walks over and takes the seat next to her.
Biker: hey, what’s a cutie like you doing in a hole like this?
Sal doesn’t speak as she sips her drink and puffs at her cigarette. The biker moves his hand closer.
Biker: say, are you looking for a job? I know something that would be right up your ally?
Sal: Like what? A sex slave, fuck off.
The biker moves his hand to her but.
Biker: You’re feisty, I like that. Got a bit of a mouth on you though.
Sal grabs his hand and throws it away.
Sal: I’m looking for someone, Machttleo, and word on the street is you know ‘em.
Biker: how do you know that?
Sal says nothing as she ignores him.
The biker slams his hand on the bar table.
Biker: ANSWER ME BITC-
Sal pulls out a knife and slams it through the bikers hand into the table.
Biker:AHHHHH!!!!
Sal: ah thought you bikers were supposed to be tough?
Biker: you? You’re the one who’s been attacking my men. Your going to
pay for this you Bitc-
Sal puts out her ciggetett in his face and pays for her drink. She grabs her helmet and leaves. She stops at the door as she buckles her helmet on.
Sal: oh, do me a favor. Tell your boss, Ah’m coming for him.
The biker rips the knife out of his hand as some of his guys rush up to him.
Biker: Kill that bongo.
Sal is riding down the freeway as she notices five bikes start gaining on her. One gets up next to her and makes a throat slitting gesture. Sal draws a gun and fires.
Cut to black.
In theaters September 23
All rights reserved by DW comics and sony pictures.
Woah
Nice
You should do this for a living.
…She’s only like a year older than you, Walky. And you are also, technically, an adult.
Walky seems a little unclear on the concept that he’s actually not a kid anymore. He’s an adult now, with all the rights and privileges pertaining thereof.
No, that’s why we have representative democracy. The few who actually need to be adults for all of us are paid well.
Though it’s not always clear what for.
Yeah, damn that R.A. for forcing Billie to fall in love with a suicidal person. Ruth should have tried to, I don’t know, split them up or something.
Seriously, Walky pisses me off right here. Ruth bullies Billie, and he doesn’t say a word. Ruth becomes suicidal (well, more suicidal) while Billie is in love with her, and suddenly she’s the bad guy.
(Yes, I know Walky didn’t know about the bullying. Complaining about Walky when he can’t do nothing back to me makes me feel better)
(…it occurs to me that I may be a bit strange)
And another thing! Who up and decided that Ruth was the adult anyway? She’s, like, a year older than Walky!
(…well, I guess the school did when they made her an R.A. huh? Dammit, I need to quit undercutting my own arguments like this…)
Actually there was that one time that Sal grabbed Ruth’s head when she was clearly bullying Billie. Walky was there. And then the next time when he got his pajamas and they were together, he ran away when Ruth showed up (Billie even clearly wanted his support). He was definitely ignoring what was going on to her.
And then there was the time he’s referring to here, when he went to Billie’s RA to get help because Billie was freaked out – crawled into his bed and unresponsive. Ruth assured him she’d take care of it.
But she was too tied up with the problem to do her job.
No reason to be upset with Ruth at all.
Look, I’m not saying Ruth hasn’t been a shitty person. I even pointed out some examples of when she was a shitty person. I’m just saying, Walky being angry at Ruth right now and laying all the blame for what is going on presently on her is more than a little messed up, for a number of reasons.
I agree with Walky, with the exception of his more general statement on adults. I happily cheer on Dina and Becky but Ruth took a person under her care down with her. She was not just a mean RA but a straight-up bully. Ruth is not a good person and took advantage of a fucked-up situation and a girl who she bullied and emotionally abused. I hope Billie gets away from her. And yeah, I say this as someone who has faced depression. That is not an excuse to act like a piece of shit. And before anyone gets on me for being hard on Ruth in particular, I HATE Mike and wish so hard for his arc to become the moment when everyone around him realizes he is a cancerous parasite and ditches his ass. So yeah, the end of his arc being his exit from the comic strip.
Eh, you got a point there. Watching the “romance”, I forgot about the abusive beginnings of their “relationship.” Pretty toxic.
Fun fact: intestinal parasite infections correlate negatively with autoimmune diseases like Morbus Crohn. Looks like some intestines got out of the habit of protecting themselves when the worms were already doing that job in the course of decorating their living rooms.
What?
On the other hand, in the current phase of the relationship (sexy lesbian suicide pact, illegal cohabitation) it’s actually been Billie making most of the moves – “we can touch each other,” “I’m not going to let you push me away,” etc. Casting Ruth as a one-sided abuser is missing a lot of the nuance that keeps Billie rushing back to Ruth of her own will.
I’m not unconvinced that Billie feels vindicated in breaking through Ruth’s worst behaviour and seeing that there is a troubled person in there who desperately needs help. For someone with her sense of self worth, Ruth’s alternating shows of affection and abuse could screw with Billie big time, and then seeing that Ruth is in danger, making Billie go into overdrive so she can save Ruth. I can fully believe that so much about their relationship is Billie finding a sense of self worth in it.
Ruth is not An Abuser anymore. She’s cut that out and for all the power dynamics Billie is the one really holding the cards here. It’s just, well it’s basically impossible for me to want these two to be together because of that beginning. It reads too uncomfortably close to Ruth being rewarded with her victim, even if I know for a fact that this isn’t the intent of her character.
Those abusive origins are really the spectre that negatively colors their whole relationship.
I think the abuse goes both ways by now. It’s a complex situation, but it certainly isn’t healthy for either of them.
I wouldn’t say the abuse goes both ways, or at least if it does, I’ve missed the parts where Billie has been abusive to Ruth.
Well, I wouldn’t call it abusive, but Billie did majorly hurt Ruth when she lied about them quiting alcohol together. And like someone pointed out below, Billie broke into Ruth’s room and (opportunistically) took a blackmail picture of Ruth passed out drunk.
Anyway, all of that stuff is firmly stuck in the past. I haven’t seen anything outright abusive about the relationship for a long time, since before the time skip.
I mean, it really isn’t Ruth’s business if Billie drinks.
Like, no, Billie shouldn’t have, obviously, but that’s at most a dick move on her part and IIRC it was revealed that Ruth never quit either (or at least by the time they entered their relationship, Ruth had taken up drinking again).
As for the blackmail, that happened after Ruth stole Billie’s shirt and then brought it up when Ruth threatened to expel her for drinking (are RAs allowed to do random searches for contraband? Genuinely unaware about that).
Actually it was Ruth’s business. First, she’s the RA. Enforcing alcohol bans is one of her jobs. I believe Ruth was actually specifically warned about Billie’s drinking before the semester started.
More importantly, since she wasn’t even pretending to do her job at the time, they’d made a deal to quit drinking together. That was leading into a relationship. Ruth discovered Billie hadn’t quit when they kissed for the first time. That’s a hell of a betrayal.
At that point, Ruth had quit. Gone through withdrawal and all. She kept it up afterwards. She didn’t start again until they got together.
Billie never stopped. Apparently, she never even tried to stop. I don’t think it’s been shown clearly, but near as I can tell she didn’t stop this time either – when Ruth stopped again under threat of Mary’s blackmail. She’s shown no signs of withdrawal, while Ruth has. Just like before.
Right, good point. I completely misremembered that, and even later on Ruth says that she had gotten down to compulsively buying them without drinking.
I maintain that it’s more of a dick move than anything, like of all things I think that would be something Billie should be allowed to be given a second chance over, but, yeah, betrayal is a good way to put it, especially with that bit about how Billie’s all “youre the one with the problem so mleh.”
Walky, you dumb shit. Depression and alcoholism doesn’t care how old you are. Also, aren’t you over 18, or 21, or something? That classifies you as an adult yourself, buddy-boy.
18 is a child with more responsibilities than they’re ready for. Meanwhile Ruth was older than them, and was specifically given a position of authority over them in which she was supposed to be responsible for their wellbeing.
Walky’s in the right. Kind of an idiot, but correct. It’s like your friend gets mugged, you call a cop to help, then the cop takes the friend’s watch too.
…So, what you’re saying is, people don’t magically become adults when they turn 18, they magically become adults when they turn 19 or 20?
Seriously though, I agree that Ruth should have been more responsible, because she was selected by the school to be an authority figure. But the school is not all-knowing, and it is pretty clear that they misjudged her. Ruth (well, depressed Ruth anyway) is not cut out to be an authority figure.
And maybe if Ruth’s financial situation was different (or if she wasn’t so desperate for approval from her grandfather, not entirely sure which), Ruth would have recognized her limitations and quit her job. But, for whatever reason, Ruth decided to blithely ignore the fact that she is clearly unsuitable to be an authority figure and just kept at it. Which is really the kind of thing you would expect from an irresponsible not-quite-adult, isn’t it?
Ruth *is* the responsible party in that setting. She’s trained to be the RA, and has clear responsibilities that she has to adhere to, which she couldn’t because she was depressed. RA responsibilities don’t suddenly become fluid once you’re in a relationship with someone. For example, depression aside, just because a freshman is my SO does not make it appropriate for me to drink with them or enable their alcoholism. I think Ruth’s depression had a lot to do with her decisions in that respect, and it’s good that she’s on her way to get help.
So I don’t think Walky means it literally, just that she’s the one that’s in charge and for whatever reason (according to Walky) she screwed up her job. We know she was severely depressed, all Walky knew before this was that Billie was the one with issues, and Ruth was her RA.
Well, from what people mentioned it seems RA-training is a rather short thing that basicly teaches you the rules you are supposed to enforce and not much else.
After Blaine showed up, Ruth felt responsible for talking to Amber even though she clearly didn’t feel equipped to do so.
And yes, Ruth shouldn’t have pushed up her “l’m an RA to be feared” routine to stealing stuff from Billie, nor should she have started a sexual relationship with her. She should have got some counseling for “hey I’m attracted to this drinker who already was drunk-driving even though I hate drunk drivers for killing my parents”.
But this would have required at lot of trust in someone and she doesn’t have much of that.
Walky IS the king of nuance.
Like most monarchs of the past, he would sooner trod on his subjects than listen to them.
Joyce stop being a bigot. You don’t celebrate a person just because of their sexuality.
Well, that’s kinda harsh, isn’t it.
Um.
Well, I hope this is sarcasm.
(I actually for real can’t tell anymore)
I mean, I’ve seen a lot of really uncomfortable fetishization of queer relationships, that we’re all just big drama bombs and that our problems make us Tragically Hot. Joyce’s line hit a really sour note for me and I’m glad Walky told her off.
The Vertigo comic Lucifer features a Neo Nazi falling in love with a gay man he paralyzed for life, and the big plot twist is that the guy knew that the skinhead did it but he loves him anyway and, just, what the actual fuck am I reading here?
Lucifer spoilers:
I dunno if that one was a plot twist per se, given that that in that arc the character was already in love with him and knew he was a neo-nazi and the neo-nazi exploited that so all his buddies could jump him. So the neo-nazi realizing that that betrayal was because he couldn’t handle the reality of loving the guy back is supposed to be a bitter note, rather than a touching moment and a number of characters straight up dress down the neo-nazi for being a walking sack of shit.
But point definitely taken.
I’m glad you were, because Walky is just pissing me off today.
(I’m guessing this was directed at me)
Eh, that’s fair. I’m set in how I perceive this, but I can also recognize why a lot of folks want Walky to piss off right now.
Like, yeah, if Walky is saying “Ruth is directly responsible for Billie’s depression” then he’s being a stupid asshole, but I don’t think that’s the only thing he’s trying for here. At least, I hope not.
I’m going to go ahead and point out a thing about the fetishization thing:
He’s not helping there at all. Because t hat isn’t even /slightly/ what is driving his immediate audience; it’s Joyce. I’ll certainly grant she thinks about Billie at least somewhat sexually, but Ruth’s presence has to count way more than Billie’s (Unless I’m underestimating how much of a mood-killer fear is for her.).
Now, /the/ audience is a nominally valid target, but /the/ audience often needs a direct clue by four. And I mean /direct/.
I think if you put a gun to his head, Walky would probably be aware there’s bigger shit that’s going on, distantly. But he’d pin the immediate problem on Ruth. And even if he didn’t, it’s by far the refrain here. And I don’t exactly got a good reason to assume the best about Walky, in contravention of the text.
I mean, both parts of that particular subplot kinda hit on the same thing for me.
Like, the first part was just standard Tragedy of the Queer (see Sandman, one of the greatest comics of all time, and its bog standard “Trans lady dies tragically so cis friends can learn lesson about tolerance”) but the return to it near the end had it revealed that the dude knew but he loved him anyway. That’s the end reveal and how skinhead guy avoids facing consequences. Because a dude who’s spine he broke and gave brain damage is all “its coo brah lets have adopted babies” about it.
And, like, no! I’ve achieved maximum nope! That’s some straight up The Sheik bullshit! And it feels really weird coming after something as rad as Mazikeen macking on her girlfriend in front of the entire heavenly host.
Ugh, that Sandman plot is pretty much straight up unreadable for me these days for how brutally transphobic it was (I mean, the damn moon shows up to tell her she’s not a real woman, WTF).
But yeah, you’re probably right, it’s been awhile since I reread Lucifer and I remember just sort of feeling generally meh about that particular subplot so it was probably fucked up.
What I take away from that Sandman plot is not that Wanda is not a real woman, but that the moon is a transphobic jerk.
We have all these antropomorphical personifications and gods and abstract concepts and whatnot running around, being petty dicks of Greek Mythology proportions. The moon is just as bad as the rest of the lot. The way I read it, that episode did nothing to reduce Wanda’s gender identity and everything to reduce the Moon’s divine infallibility.
Doesn’t make it more comfortable to read of course, especially since Wanda’s story ark is a tragedy.
That’s one of the next lessons she needs to learn. Her guilt over past bigotry is making her want to be supportive just because it’s a same-sex relationship. It’s better than being automatically against it, but it’s still demeaning
From the way she phrases it, it read to me like she was looking to Dorothy for guidance. She’s at least vaguely aware that she shouldn’t treat queer relationships differently, but right now she can’t tell how far her guilt is skewing her reaction.
Given her own recent experiences with how harshly Becky was treated/judged by her church and their own families, it’s understandable that she would feel uncomfortable with Walky’s reaction, and be hesitant to take his side.
Comic Reactions- Nuance and Fire:
I’ve got such mixed feelings about Walky here. On the one hand, seeing him actually get out of his head a bit and show that empathy and care and concern for Billie is super heart-warming and his over-protective big brother shtick is somewhat endearing. On the other, ungh, well, let’s just dive right into it.
Panel 1: Okay, I unapologetically love him in this panel. Like, he knows that they aren’t actually fine and things are serious and he even introspects a little, which for Walky is like pulling teeth, acknowledging that he just doesn’t have the skills to support Billie in a helpful way in situations like these and that his attempts to rise to the occasion fell somewhat flat.
And that’s so unfortunate and sad, because Walky was really trying as best he could and yet he still couldn’t succeed to his own standards or feel like his presence was adding something. And it just makes me want to give the poor woobie a hug.
Panels 2 and 3: And then, we get here. And ugh.
I really empathize with Walky here cause it’s hard suddenly being thrown into the deep end of aiding a depressed person like that. Hell, we’ve seen in earlier strips that no one has been handling it exceptionally well (when Carla is actually in the top half of those who’ve handled it well and she noped so fast out of the room there was a dust cloud, that’s saying way too much).
And that can stir a lot of emotions including feelings of anger or frustration.
But here’s the things that majorly bother me in his responses here:
1) Ruth is not much more of an adult than him and is pretty much a kid herself. And well, yeah, no shit she is, because Walky isn’t even talking about her. Billie’s problems came long before Ruth and Walky knows it because he’s been watching her downward spiral from afar for awhile now and given his conversations with Sal, he’s probably or should probably have started putting together the pieces that it’s Billie’s parents who bear some of the responsibility if not for Billie’s depression, certainly the way she desperately tries to avoid thinking about it or talking about it with loved ones.
And so, it’s somewhat unfortunate to see him displace and project that frustration better aimed at parents at someone with only minor authority to try and help.
I’m okay with Walky’s reactions for two reasons:
1: On a narrative level, it’s better for him to voice these things aloud because it can lead to more interesting interactions, instead of just shoving them into a thought bubble and being done with it.
2: He’s venting. Sometimes you just have to get that ugly shit out of your system and voice it to people that probably won’t be hurt by it. If he said this to Ruth and/or Billie? Then yeah, fire and brimstone. But venting when they’re not around… sure, it’s not ideal, but it’s better than a hell of a lot of alternatives.
Oh, I agree. Him actually talking about any feelings period is actually a major step for him and its good he’s actually starting to do it. And I think it’s really awesome that he at least hid this kinda stuff from them when trying to comfort them, because that would have been the last thing Ruth and Billie would have needed.
Part of what makes this somewhat frustrating and emotionally conflicting, because I’m so proud of him and so frustrated with him simultaneously. Like a puppy who’s managed an impressive task while also tracking mud all over the inside of the house.
This, exactly.
I totally see why he would assume the worst about what’s going on between Ruth and Billie, but I’m already too cheesed to back down
Puppy Walky!!!!
I completely agree on the venting. This is a safe space where Walky can vent frustration and fear and anger and not be on the ball all the time.
I also think that he has a point bongoing about Ruth failing to adult – because that was her job as an RA, to BE the adult for the other stupid kids. When Walky came to her he didn’t just dump his problems on a fellow young&dumb student’s doorstep. He went through the Proper Channels to Alerted the Proper Authorities.
If the situation would have been to sticky for Ruth she SHOULD have alerted Chloe. Instead she gave Billie a bottle of booze and told her to watch her die (OK, that was really unfair, but not as far from the mark from where Walky is standing).
So yeah, Walky is completely right, and he is right to be angry. Ruth WAS supposed to help. The fact that she didn’t is in fact a stellar example of why it is a bad idea for an RA to date someone in her care.
Also, I sadly think that Ruth DID do a lot of damage to Billie’s first weeks in college. Billie was tentatively trying to find her footing and build up a new life, and Ruth kept undermining that effort. Something kinda hopefully good came out of it, but Billie lost a lot of opportunities in the process.
Of course, there are lot of things that are not Ruth’s fault (including the fact that Billie did bad already before Ruth targeted her for pigtails-in-inkwells style romance), and all adults involved has done a worse job to fuck it up, including Walky’s parents, Billie’s parents, Ruth’s grandfather (who looks like Tywin Lannister in my head) and Chloe who did a bad job keeping track of the RA under HER charge.
But I really think Walky is right to be angry, and he expresses that anger in the least damaging way possible. When he actually talked to Ruth there was nothing by support and worry (and silliness).
I agree with some of that, but he also doesn’t know that she gave her booze or any of that other stuff or any of her bullying or abuse. That all never came up.
So, in his eyes, she was depressed, he went to proper authorities to fix it (and Ruth did what an actually good RA would do, check in personally and see how she was doing), but he only realized later, that they were in the midst of getting together and he’s blaming that on her.
Again, if he had the full story and was reacting this way, I’d be way less ambivalent and conflicted about his response.
The bullying is well known gossip, and there is NO WAY Walky sees Billie in this bad shape and doesn’t take for granted that booze has been involved.
So yeah, Walky doesn’t have the full picture, but he has some of the pieces and however he pieced them together Ruth wouldn’t look particularly good.
Except that “check in personally and see how she was doing” was a total failure because of what was already going on between them.
Even if Walky doesn’t know the full story, he’s right about the gist. “I went to Ruth for help with Billie and not only did she not help, but she was actually the cause.” (Or at least the immediate cause – even Walky would admit Billie has deeper problems.)
And as Wraithy said above, that he’s venting on this now and didn’t even hint at it in the room with Ruth & Billie is pretty impressive – for Walky, at least.
Exactly. She didn’t check in, she did the opposite of checking in. Walky is right to be suspicious of the healthiness of the whole thing.
Well, she did check in. And looking back at that strip:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/04-the-whiteboard-dong-bandit/crazytalk/
She knows her presence is likely toxic and unhelpful at this point and tries to hint at that and only really gives in to checking in on her (checking in on her, not claiming to take sole responsibility for making her better, this is a thing Walky and Billie both get wrong [Billie when she asked Carla to check in on Ruth and then got angry that Carla wasn’t essentially filling her role of being on-demand emotional support making sure Ruth wasn’t killing herself, which is a much bigger ask]) temporarily.
And given her lack of spoons and real reasons to be upset with Billie or recognize things have always been super toxic between them and she’s a bad road for her (at the time), she did try to talk with her, even though it ended up being way more bitter, way more “go away so I can kill myself” than helpful, and so on (though ironically somewhat more supportive than she’s managed for anyone, cause she’s really bad at being emotional support).
She did her “job”. It just wasn’t a job that magically fixed Billie (though it did get her out of being non-responsive and back to being up and walking around which is a big step [one she knows from personal experience]), make it so Walky no longer needed to provide emotional support for her forever more, or actually do the useful thing of connecting Billie with Student Health Resources.
Note: None of this is intended to excuse early Ruth in general. Because early Ruth is an abusive asshole who’s actions against Billie, especially in the context of their later relationship, are straight up monstrous.
No, Ruth isn’t the immediate or proximate cause. To the extent Billie’s fucked up about her feelings iwth Ruth, it’s because Ruth was trying to shut her out to avoid blackmail. Actions taken under duress are generally the fault of the person /creating/ the duress, not the one /acting under it/.
Like, it’s a little offensive on some level that people keep talking about the source of Billie’s problems as if there is a properly understood source. The bulk of her problem seems to be depression, albeit not in a state like Ruth’s. That’s… that’s brain chemistry. A lot of things are not /helpful/, and I’ve gone from cautiously optimistic to extremely leery about her parents… but ultimately Billie’s biggest problem is probably that, with a side order of alcohol dependency (I’m making plans to move to a place where the drinking age is 18 with higher quality of life and standards of living, so don’t expect for me to be fucked about the idea that she drinks at all; but she clearly relies on it too much given the physical and emotional dependence on it.)
The idea that the /real/ cause is anything but that kind of makes me a /little/ mad.
Fair enough. Cause isn’t a good word. I did say “(Or at least the immediate cause – even Walky would admit Billie has deeper problems.)”
Nonetheless, it’s perfectly understandable that Walky’s upset because he went to the proper authority when Billie was in trouble and that authority was unable to help (or arrange for help or anything) because she was in an secret relationship with her charge, which was, while not the cause of Billie’s problems at least tied up with them.
She’s in that room right now on suicide watch at least partly because Ruth didn’t do her job. And partly because of the horribly fucked up relationship. That led to this particular crisis.
Without Ruth, this crisis wouldn’t have happened. Maybe another one would have. Maybe she would have been able to cope better without that added trauma. The underlying problems would have still been there, of course.
I actually suspect that in Billie’s case the alcoholism may be the larger problem. She hasn’t even made an attempt to quit. She’s lied about quitting, even to Ruth.
Ruth is depression with a side order of alcohol. Billie’s the other way around.
Basically nobody in a drama piece is going to go see a counsellor. They have to basically be nonexistent, and their acknowledged existence has to be slammed, or else real help ruins a lot of the on-screen action. Of course she didn’t ‘do her job’ in the most important sense. She can’t. The laws of the universe prevent it from being helpful (Technically, she can try, but if everyone keeps trying it gets less believable that nobody DOES it. The smarter narrative move is to not even suggest it).
Within that framework, she went and did the thing she can do, after being pressed, as someone who shouldn’t have done it, and knew that, but was still better than it not being done at all.
“The crisis wouldn’t have happened without Ruth”? Man I don’t know, she’d thought she was horrible poison after dealing with her Ex- who’s name escapes me. Horrible poison that ruins everything. A contributing factor in that was probably hurting Ruth because she didn’t stop drinking, but that’s less on Ruth and more that there was someone she COULD fail by not drinking. And she is in a shitty headspace in general – she probably could have manufactured another reason to hate herself that much.
I don’t actually know taht Billie’s alcoholism is her bigger problem. Well, okay, I’m pretty sure on that one in the general, but I don’t think it’d have her on suicide watch if she wasn’t depressed.
Alice.
And yeah, that’s a good point that the real “culprit” is brain chemistry. I apologize for going all “I accuse her parents” earlier.
Also, yeah, very much agree on Ruth not really precipitating the last crisis (or worse, if she did then it was for setting a boundary with Billie and sticking to it [not dating her because she broke the no drinking promise]).
Plus, there’s the point that the relationship actually did somewhat help Billie in the short-run in that it kept her from being catatonic in Walky’s bed unable to move. NRE, endorphins, all that good jazz.
It wasn’t gonna save her, but it was enough to hit the snooze alarm a little and the ability to help out Ruth on her not dying project allowed her to feel useful to someone which was a big tool her self-hatred was using against her.
Which makes Walky’s specific accusation somewhat off unless he’s somehow sussed out the abusive origins thing and I’m just not seeing the signs in the text yet that he’s pieced that together.
Yeah, the origins are straight up shit. Without viewer knowledge, I legit don’t know that it’s possible to approve of the relationship in light of them, so I imagine Dotty is actually really *frumple* and is just not voicing it because it’s not the time and place.
Am I horrible that this thought occurred to me?
Walky: “I mean, Billie’s dad is awesome. We used to have a serious homeless problem but he got a bunch of buses and took them to a farm upstate.”
Joyce: “Oh, wow, he sounds awesome.”
Dad and Dorothy: *grimace*
“Oh, yeah, I know that farm! It’s the place my parents sent my pet gerbil to in fifth grade!”
If she’s going to do nuance with you Walky, you’ll need to meet her halfway.
“Adults shouldn’t be the source of problems.” and “Give me a heads up when you’re ready to consider some friggin’ nuance.” don’t seem to go together.
Billie is not the innocent victim of Ruth’s sinister machinations. Billie and Ruth are both suffering from depression that they have been self-medicating with alcohol for years. They both need help, not condemnation. In the absence of that knowledge, Walky was right to expect more assistance from the RA than he received, but now is the time for understanding rather than judgement.
That said, I understand (what I presume to be) his feelings. He obviously cares deeply about Billie. When someone you love is in this kind of pain, you want to do anything you possibly can to take that pain away. Instinctively, the easiest way to do that is to identify some external source of the pain and forcibly remove it. I suspect he’s blaming Ruth because she’s an easy target for him to rationalize as the cause of the problem.
I think what Walky means to say is that Ruth is an “adult” in the sense that she is in a position of authority. Also, as we’ve discussed before Ruth is the “adult” here in the sense that being a sophomore- senior is way “older” than being a freshman. She’s also 20 to Billie’s (17/18?). They’re just not of the same maturity level, and theoretically Ruth should know better.
He didn’t (and doesn’t) know everything about Ruth’s story and why she is the way she is, just that she’s the person responsible for everyone on their floor, which the point of being an RA.
Ruth entered a loving, but unhealthy in a lot of ways relationship with Billie, and instead of helping Billie with her own issues (like pointing her to campus resources or some such thing, what she’s officially supposed to do) Billie was the one that eventually helped Ruth function, helped Ruth hide her issues from everyone so neither of them, but mostly Ruth wouldn’t suffer the consequences. I know about Mary, but Ruth would have been fired way before Mary blackmailed her if anyone had found out before that. Also, see suicide/drinking pact.
In the end, there is a reversal of the roles in the sense that Billie becomes the one who takes care of Ruth, not to mention the problematic way their relationship started: Ruth bullying Billie, making her feel bad for being overweight, etc. – and then Billie, though we know she cares for Ruth, starts to feel obligated to keep their relationship and drinking a secret, and was so enveloped in the whole thing (and just uninformed about depression) she didn’t realize the reality of how bad Ruth’s situation was. I doubt she would have taken that kind of action if an outside person (Carla) hadn’t pointed it out to her. Which is food for thought.
So from Walky’s perspective, he would be mad at Ruth, because in his mind Ruth was the one that should have been taking care of Billie and not the other way around – he sees this relationship as a bad relationship – even though from Ruth or Billie’s (or the reader’s) perspective, it’s not “fair” for him to think that.
Just to be clear *I* don’t think Ruth and Billie’s relationship is entirely/inherently bad, just that there are some issues there, so I can understand where Walky’s coming from.
2) Okay, let’s address the elephant in the room that he’s blaming Ruth for somehow creating Billie’s depression in the first place. And in doing so, he heavily implies not only that her depression was somehow romantically tied (it so wasn’t, hell, even her bad turn was mostly caused by losing the thin mask of status she was using to run from her internal problems), but that Ruth should be blamed for not magically fixing Billie even though he was more than happy to pawn her off on her in the first place.
Like, it’d be one thing if he disliked her because of the abusive origins of their relationship. Cause hell yeah, Walky, in that instance. But he doesn’t really know about those. Like, the most he’s got of that is that they met when Ruth threw Billie on a chair, but he’s not really bringing that up or showing many signs that he’s putting together the pieces on that.
And instead what he’s bringing up is some really myopic kid-level understanding of depression where the “mommy” adult figure makes everything better and he’s frustrated that Ruth wasn’t actually a magical make depression go away fairy.
And that’s especially galling for me, because I’ve been in the position of being a romantic partner of someone in a bad depressive spell shortly after bunkering through a bad spell of my own and being blamed by said partner’s mom (an abusive woman largely behind her depressive spell) for somehow infecting her daughter with depression.
And also because Walky was there to hear that Ruth has been suffering blackmail and homophobia from Mary. So, to be ranting about the depressed person in this instance without any real seeming cause feels somewhat… douchey?
3) It’s Walky dipping into toxic masculine behavior again.
And by that I mean, men and those raised as if men frequently are heavily policed in which emotions they are allowed to show as they grow up. Crying, hurting, worry, are seen as weak and heavily bullied. Whereas men are instead encouraged when experiencing emotions to instead turn to anger and frustration as those are the limits of emotions a young man is allowed to feel.
And well, we know Walky doesn’t handle “the feels” very well and uses every trick in the book to avoid dwelling on them. And we know he’s very susceptible to a lot of “masculine rules” that he weirdly follows and doesn’t much examine the cultural contexts of his actions or when he’s harming others with his antics.
And so, him dodging away from feeling sad and vulnerable into building a justification for anger feels like yet another one of these emotional dodges (albeit likely very unconscious) and avoidances for examining feelings more directly and letting himself feel genuinely sad.
Cause, this is a thing he’s done this whole arc, translating his empathy and concern which are so beautiful into big epic statements about how his big manliness is gonna save the day. So this response to impotence (seeing her, he’s not actually able to help much) feels… just sorta frustratingly, ugh, Walky, examine your shit bro-y.
Firstly, I’m sorry you had that experience with your SO’s mom.
Secondly, I have to disagree. he said, “I trusted her to help”. I don’t take that to mean that he thinks Ruth caused Billie’s depression/drinking/problems. he knew she had problems before, from when they were in high school. I take it to mean that he thought, since Ruth is an RA and RAs are supposed to help freshmen with problems, that Ruth would get Billie help in any number of official channels that RAs are supposed to. It’s simplistic, but most schools give freshmen simplistic explanations of these things. Because she was/is so unwell, Ruth did none of those things.
It’s quite ironic that Walky is pointing out the nuance of Ruth and Billie’s relationship in particular, because it seems to him that he’s of the opinion not that Ruth caused Billie’s problems, but that Billie’s relationship to Ruth is yet *another* stressor on Billie. It’s like throwing up your hands and saying, “Ugh! This whole thing is a mess!” Walky doesn’t think that Ruth is “good” for Billie, as problematic as that may sound, even though he’s not literally saying it here. I put myself in Walky’s shoes, I wouldn’t completely write Ruth off, but I’d be questioning the situation – especially if I knew about how the relationship started.
I also think that Walky feels all of those things at the same time. I would agree with you though, that it’s a very masculine trait to be angry for anything. “I feel helpless – so I’ll get mad and punch the wall in despair” is a common trope for male characters that a lot of people subscribe to. it’s easier for anyone to be angry than sit with the more vulnerable feelings, but Walky definitely has the right to feel some kind of way about the whole situation.
Oh totally, he has a full right to feel horrible. Hell, even a full right to be petty when dealing with a stressful horrible situation (and he really is, like this was a nightmare of his he tried to put out of mind for awhile that came rearing back and then he also got put through the ringer by Mary being an asshole and literally telling him it would be his fault if she died).
Like, hurt and fear and pain aren’t rational and express themselves in tons of different ways and they are totally valid.
I’m just somewhat frustrated that he’s again falling into this male trope where it’s easier to be angry and hating someone than feel vulnerable and that he somehow expected Ruth to solve everything with a magic wand and somehow make it all better by the time he got back from class.
And if I’m being honest with myself, it’s not even so much that he feels these things, because hey, people deal with strong emotions in different ways and he was very careful and very good not to express this frustration and anger for his impotence in being able to help to Ruth and Billie’s faces. It’s more that he snipes at Joyce at the end and tries to frame his “I don’t have feelings, stupid face” grumblings as somehow the more “logical” and right response, stemming from his clear understanding of nuance.
Like, that’s also a trope seen in a lot of dudes, to try and act like their emotional response to things (usually in the form of anger) is somehow more logical and reasoned than whatever the woman is saying even if it is the more reasoned statement and is coming from a place of more introspection and understanding.
I dunno, I tend to bristle at a lot of toxic masculinity behaviors because of my own background and how hard folks worked while I was growing up to try and “train” me in them so I’d be less of a (slur for a homosexual man).
Yeah, I completely agree on the toxic masculinity thing. Especially his snipe at Joyce. He is one beat from calling her “irrational”. But just as you note, he use what limited tools he has in his box to deal with a HORRIBLY painful situation. And there are much worse things he could do that do a stupid rant in a safe space.
Ouch, yeah, that Mary thing must hurt A LOT, especially since he has tried – and failed – to help Billie basically the entire comic and almost never got recognition except for snarls (“I don’t want to bee seen with you, Walky”), belittlement (“silly Walky, she was just in love”) and less than helpful “help” (“Godportunity!”). Ruth was the one person he thought actually DID do something to help, and now he has every reason to believe that she did not only neglect to do so, but also did everything worse.
Come to think of it, there is probably a not-so-subtle parallel to ANOTHER sister who he COULDN’T help. We have heard very little of teen!Walky and how he dealt with Sal’s rebellion that escalated with the dual robbery and her being sent away, but I would be surprised if he didn’t at some point thinks in terms of what he could have done to prevent it.
Those are all really good points and yeah, I’m really curious to see Teen Walky handling Sal’s attempts at rebellion too.
I almost wrote “tweeny Walky” because I took for granted that he was several years younger than Sal, and then I thought… wait a minute – twins.
Yeah, I get that about the Walky’s snide remark to Joyce at the end. Joyce implying that she feels she shouldn’t worry too much because they are a queer couple (because she doesn’t want to be seen as a bigot) is problematic, but Walky definitely didn’t need to respond that way.
And no worries, I feel ya. Being a woman and growing up with little people having little tolerance for me feeling anything other than accommodating and “nice”, I too am very impatient with men who are incompetent when it comes to *owning* their feelings. I gravitate away from from overly angry men, and also from men who want mother substitutes and not partners/friendships.
Which is also strange because that upbringing has resulted in me knowing clearly what I feel, but also being uncomfortable sometimes expressing them. But I think for me that’s the difference between gender norms: Men fear seeming weak and being embarrassed, women fear retribution/total rejection, because we are seen as expendable. Like the Margaret Atwood quote. And the intersectionality of race/gender/sexuality complicates that as well.
By those standards, i should be biased against Walky, but weirdly I care for him very much as a character.
^^^ everything about this.
Ruth was being an asshole one thousand times over @ Billie at the beginning of their relationship.
But as it continued, RUTH was the one who needed help more, and if anything, helping her was Billie’s coping mechanism, proving to herself that she can still do some good to SOMEONE.
And here’s the thing, if they didn’t have their arrangement, if Ruth had been a normal reasonable RA, she wouldn’t have ever been in position to know about Billie’s problems. It’s not an RA’s job to stalk freshmen, and Billie would not have asked for help from her any more than she had asked Walky.
It’s just… no. Walky is missing the mark here on what is and isn’t Ruth’s fault one thousand times over, and yes, him dumping all over Joyce who is being ten times the mature adult that he is, is a ridiculous stunt of immature toxic masculinity.
Except she would have: In the hypothetical where Billie was having the same issues with someone other than her RA, Walky still would have gone to her RA for help when she turned up in his bed and wouldn’t talk or move. But that RA wouldn’t have been tied to the problem, so while she still wouldn’t have been able to magically fix it, she might well have pushed Billie towards the counseling or some other resource that’s supposed to help.
Walky asked Ruth to help and trusted her to do so, because she was the adult authority figure. He did the right thing. Followed channels. And Ruth was too much a part of the problem to do her job.
The problem isn’t that she didn’t do her job. She did. She totally did her job there and followed exactly what she promised to him.
It’s that, a) she shouldn’t have done her job because she was too close to the situation (which is something she realized), b) she’s shit at her job, especially the parts where she emotionally comforts others because it makes her feel like a fraud as she’s in a state where she has lost track of most of her emotions, an c) RAs should probably encourage mental health services for students in crisis, helping them set up appointments and stuff, but that’s definitely not part of protocol and training unfortunately and that role should probably be more filled in by worried friends and family… (and Walky straight up didn’t want that responsibility and was hoping to completely dump the situation on Ruth and call it a day).
My take on that is different from yours. Particularly on Walky’s motivations. He does manipulate and try to guilt Ruth into helping, but I don’t see it as him not wanting the responsibility, but as him being scared for her, freaking out and not knowing what to do – he tried talking to her in both silly Walky mode and in a more concerned fashion and got absolutely no response. This was his equivalent of Carla’s “NopeNopeNopeNope”.
He did the right thing – went to the closest level of authority figure. He covered this up when talking to her by blathering about missing class and the like, because he’s Walky and he can’t admit either the feelings or the uselessness – I’ll cop to that.
Ruth then did what she promised, I can’t argue with that either. But because she’s Ruth and because she was part of the problem, she didn’t actually help and in the long run just dragged Billie further down. She didn’t do her job – which would involve escalating the problem if she couldn’t deal with it herself.
I’m not expecting a magic fix for depression. Walky might have been. I don’t know. What he got was just papering over the cracks – hiding the problem. He wouldn’t be reacting this way even if Billie was still in a bad state, if Ruth hadn’t been involved or had properly done something.
I’m not sure what Walky should have done. I thought we were encouraging involving authorities and not just having the kids try to manage depression and other mental health crises on their own.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not blaming Ruth. I can just see why Walky does.
That’s a good point, he did what he felt should have been what he needed to, escalating problems he felt incapable to deal with to the nearest authority who could. And that’s a really good action on his part and I can see why he’d be frustrated on that level, like, I thought it just worked that I informed the authority and this stuff got taken care of, but the authority was incompetent/corrupt/dealing with her own shit/already intimately involved and that betrays how I thought all of this was supposed to work.
Especially since it seemed to work: Billie was gone when he got back. Seemed to be back to functional, at least. Happier.
If Ruth had failed, that would be one thing, but this seems closer to betrayal. Again, from what he knows.
I don’t think Ruth did her job at all. Yeah, she showed up to see Billie when Walky said there was a problem, and then she half-assed it and didn’t ever address the problem again. RAs mostly do front-line contact and reporting, and if there’s a case where they can’t do that for a student (whether for romantic or other reasons) they’re supposed to kick it up the chain to their hall manager/residence life director/etc. Ruth didn’t do that; and it was one of the responsibilities she agreed to take on when she accepted her job and its compensation. Ruth isn’t somewhat responsible because she’s a romantic partner who didn’t address a problem, but because she’s an authority figure who didn’t address a problem. The ball was right in her court, and she did nothing. That’s what Walky is mostly calling out.
Of course, this is in addition to all the times Ruth insulted and harassed her residents, threatened them with assault, violated their privacy, and stole from them. Even if you ignore how Ruth fed into Billy’s depression and alcoholism, she tucked up massively on every other level. She has some serious problems of her own, but she’s past due to face some serious consequences for her behavior.
That’s a really fair point and a good reminder of just how bad she is at the job of being RA.
Huh, I just realized that some of my frustrations with Walky might be related to my frustrations when people are shitting on folks for reasons that are not actually their faults.
Like, yes, Ruth has so many toxic aspects of herself that he could have rightfully used to fuel his antipathy, but her being depressed and her not magically fixing depression so he could safely never have to deal with the tough emotions of supporting a depressed person are definitely not two of them.
Well, I can agree that “I trusted her to help” definitely doesn’t mean he thinks Ruth caused Billie’s depression/drinking/problems.
But “she was the source of the goshdanged problem” is another story.
Oh, I see that part – he thinks Ruth is the source of the problem of this particular situation (the suicide pact/hiding thing) – maybe he’s thinking, “if Billie had never got together with, Billie would not be dealing with this..”
That’s exactly how I’ve been reading his response!
That he views the depression as stemming from Ruth rather than pre-existing and coming packaged with her from high school.
I don’t think so and I don’t think that’s what Mav was saying. The immediate cause of this particular crisis episode (and the previous one he mentions, where she wound up in his bed and wouldn’t say anything, the one he went to Ruth for help with) is her relationship with Ruth.
Without Ruth, Billie would certainly still have issues and might well be facing entirely different crises, but she wouldn’t quite be in this situation.
Yes – this is what I meant.
Oh, sorry for the misinterpret.
I read his statement that “she was the cause of the goshdanged problem” to mean that he is blaming Ruth for causing the current situation rather than simply failing to remedy it. While he has expressed some level of awareness that Billie has been in pain for a while, we have no indication that he was aware of the problem existing before college.
Yes, all if this.
If only we had someone to kick down those doors, we’d have more magical make-depression-go-away faires.
Did I joke right here? It feels like I missed something, subtle?
*slow clap*
Thank you, I try.
Ehhhh, it’s easy to believe Walky is entirely wrong here but the Goodship Billy-Ruth had a lot of structural problems from the get go. Billie was suffering alcohol problems, self-esteem issues, and depression from the very beginning. She needed to get some therapy and treatment herself from the very beginning but Ruth instead pushed a relationship on her with bullying. I say pushed a relationship on her because Billie was in a very vulnerable place then and it began with needing to feel wanted by anyone. Then Billie felt like she was responsible for Ruth NOT DYING….because, well, Billie is a good person who wanted to help her in any way she could but Billie couldn’t help herself.
Walky is angry his pseudo-sister didn’t get help because of Ruth’s own issues. It’s monosighted but I can totally understand why he’s more worried about his sister than Ruth or his sister’s relationship with Ruth. Walky certainly doesn’t seem to give a shit about her being bisexual. He’s upset about the fact they’re in a hospital for her mental health.
Then again, I don’t mind the message, “Mental health first, romance later.”
Oh hell yes, on all of this. Billie/Ruth has HUGE structural problems and began hella toxic and awful and its possible that their relationship will always be partially poisoned by those toxic abusive beginnings, before you even get into the codependence and framing the entire relationship as a suicide pact among broken people*.
Though ironically, the fact that he’s upset she’s in the hospital is sorta part of the problem. When it’s more or less hidden, he could ignore it like all the shit his sister goes through, but now he’s having to face it directly. And that’s a trait both Billie and him share. But it’s really good that she’s here getting treatment, getting checked out. That’s a huge step. Even if it means admitting there’s been a huge problem lurking in Billie’s life for awhile, possibly even years like the Sal stuff.
* I mean, I still end up rooting for them because there’s enough in it that’s good and healing for them and… well, let’s just say Walky is not the only one who fills me with mixed emotions.
Yeah, that’s another thing. Fiction is full of things which shouldn’t work in real life and wouldn’t but you want to anyway.
head-cannon Becky is a master shipwright and whatever she has planned will fix EVERYTHING, OKAY?
The S.S. Billie/Ruth will sail on and this time around it will have SO MANY CANNONS you guys.
That’s the face of someone who is angry that someone else “hurt” their family. Misguided, but…
Yeah. Yeah, that hits at the thing.
Yeah, that part I love. Ia m really glad they are just family.
Comic Reactions 3:
Panel 4: Oh Joyce, I kind of love your overcompensation. You’ve come so so far and it’s kinda beautiful. Even though Walky is partly right in that not every queer romance is fully healthy. But fuck it, cheer on the two girls, regardless, you beautiful cinnamon roll, you.
And Walky… ugh. Again, so conflicted with you here, cause this feels like his old tricks, smugly dismissing folks who disagree with him, playing the smug above it all fella with it all sorted out to hide his insecurities about the situation. And it’s a trait of his that’s really the least endearing and is fresh in my mind because of how he handled the whole Carla encounter not many strips ago.
Like, my initial response I want to make is just “fuck you, Walky, and your goddamn bad faith nuance bullshit”, because I fucking hate people in real life who pull shit like that right after they’ve been through showing no nuance and displacing their weird negative feelings on people who don’t deserve it.
And especially since what Joyce is saying isn’t even all that negative or worthy of that dismissal. Like let’s say Walky did know about the abusive origins of Ruth and Billie and was upset about that, Joyce isn’t necessarily saying that women-loving-women relationships are always healthy and awesome, she’s saying she’s come a long way from bigotry and acknowledges she’s overcorrecting herself to cheer on wlw relationships because she knows about her biases in the past and assumes accurately that her natural inclination is going to be to react negatively and is seeking to correct that.
And it’s more frustrating in that I read him not being aware of that, so it’s really just sniping at her for interrupting his woe is me, Ruth didn’t fix all of Billie’s problems and thus I’ve realized that adults sometimes fuck shit up and I don’t want to emotions that, pity party here.
And that’s one of the things that’s frustrating about states like this. He snipes at people, he takes out his attempts to avoid emotions on other people, but he expects the women who surround him to instantly get his back and support him nonetheless.
And that’s not an endearing behavior even though he’s very endearing here and going through a lot of emotions and venting them.
So yeah, summary, Walky makes me hella emotionally confused on this one.
I’m reading Walky as KNOWING that what he’s saying is kinda bullshit, and using that ironic and self-aware trolling as a way of deflecting and minimizing feels. Like, “Here’s another joke to defuse the seriouses.” It’s an intentional troll, but one aimed at deflecting and derailing.
Which is… also a bit conflicting. I’m see it as a weakness of his and part of the greater whole and accept it with a bit of a groan but a shrug of the shoulders. It’s part of who he is. But being frustrated and exasperated and condemning about him in Panel 5 is a perfectly valid response too.
He’s stuck in a toxic loop? I’ve dealt with that ‘manliness’ trite as well, and feel like I engage in it, without even realizing it.
Interestingly enough there’s been some fascinating articles written about the “just joking” not-so-ironic lampshading toxic masculinity trope and how harmful it can be using the example of Trump and his followers.
But yeah, kinda agree on the toxic loop.
Hell, it’s a hard thing to avoid in our culture given how painfully men are treated when they don’t do this stuff and how ubiquitous it is modeled. I honestly think I only avoided half of it because I wasn’t actually ever a man so part of me was always a little happy that I wasn’t meeting the “standard”.
And I know for a fact I didn’t avoid all of it, cause I still get anxious when crying in public and tend to go stoic as a natural response to negative experiences.
It’s the problematic element that Billie and Ruth would be awesome together if not for the fact both have problems which are entirely capable of killing them as well as dragging the other to their death. It’s a beautiful fun dramatic romance but in real-life, I admit, I’d encourage them to lay off dating for a few months to get help then find some other woman to date. Because I don’t think they’ll ever be good for each other as anything but friends.
I can see that, Reltzik. That sort of self deprecating jokes are one of his standard tools for defusing FEELS (latest seen in his UltraCar discussion with Carla). However, if that’s what he is going for this time he fails badly to find the balance between self deprecating and genuinly hurtful… which yet again fits perfectly with his state of mind right now.
FEELS…. ANGRY RANT…DEFLECTION… BOTCHED ATTEMPT AT SELF DEPRECATING JOKE…
Yeah, I’m with Cerberus. Walky makes me hella emotionally confused on this one. Mostly I feel sorry for him.
Yeah, and it’s becoming clear in these last two arcs as well as his rooftop scene with Amazi-girl that he’s got a lot of carefully trained baggage in him about avoiding the feelings, especially ones that make him feel vulnerable and unmanly, thus triggering these emotion cycles.
There’s actually a bitter irony in comparing Walky and Ruth directly in that Ruth doesn’t have much connection with her emotions and reacts in anger a lot when she feels anything, because her depression has robbed her of all her emotions besides anger so she indulges that because otherwise she wouldn’t have any feelings at all. It’s a way to connect with her remaining emotion.
But Walky turns to this anger -> distraction -> joke cycle because he hates feeling emotions and anger is the only emotion that is seen as socially acceptable for boys to feel. So basically, the dichotomy of anger because wants some feeling, any feeling versus anger because wants no feelings at all.
Well, anger, smugness, and the other host of emotions that aren’t actually called ’emotions’ socially so that men are allowed to have them (an obvious example being pride).
He has this whole shtick of “I’m right. Of course I’m right. But if I’m not, it’s ‘cos I’m not really a grown-up, so don’t blame me.” As a tactic for avoiding challenges to your beliefs, it is…. very, very annoying.
Yeah, he’s angry and lashing out at the person next to him because the person who he’d like to (somewhat justifiably) unload on isn’t present, and he sort of recognizes that he’d be kicking someone while they’re down.
Adults are given way more responsibility than kids, and as we all know with great responsibility comes greater chances of fucking shit up. Or something like that.
I think Walky is still upset about the care package from his parents. It was just “yesterday”.
Really? Does anyone still wonder about Sal’s box?
It’s heirloom jewelry! HEIRLOOM JEWELRY, I SAY, JUST SO I CAN BE WRONG!
I think she got ginger snaps.
They are Billie’s favorite cookies, see.
It was the ginger snap that fell on the floor and Mama Walkerton didn’t feel that was dignified to include in Billie’s batch.
Or the batch that stayed in the oven too long.
They came out too brown.
…ouch, I went there? OK, so apparently I’m an asshole.
Not since that slipshine went up!
(totally not sorry)
I didn’t get it at first.
I still wonder if the preference they’re showing Walky is a race thing or a gender thing. Like, maybe the point of the unbalanced care package is that they care about his package.
(Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
(#notsorry)
Little of column A, little of Column B.
I think Willis said it was a race thing but I think it being both would be interesting.
Walky not going to jail/juvie might have something to do with it too.
But then, it might have something to do with Sal holding up a convenience store in the other direction. (We can see clear preference towards Walky in a lot of the flashback panels from even before then.)
Sal doing so has been extremely strongly implied to be because of her status as the unfavored child, and not knowing how to deal with that properly. And her status as the unfavored child is strongly based on race and possibly gender.
It’s a race thing.
I dunno, I think he’s more upset about the betrayal of trust he’s feeling. When Billie was missing/wigging out he DID go to Ruth for help. Finding out she’s the cause of such wigging of the Billie has to sting, even if you have a level head.
We adults are EXCLUSIVELY the problem.
Joyce lampshading the expected reaction in the comments section in the last panel is pretty brilliant, I have to say.
I don’t think the Ruth/Billie shippers do it just because Ruth and Billie are both girls. Not all of them anyway.
For my part, I realize that Ruth and Billie had a really screwed up start, but I can’t reconcile Ruth’s attempts at decency with the idea that she is just “a piece of shit” that Billie should dump. Nobody in this series is a perfect little angel, including Billie, who spent most of the beginning being a shallow jerk (to everyone not named Ruth).
So, overall, I’m inclined to think that Ruth and Billie should just leave the past behind and focus on what they have now. I feel like both of them are better people now than when they started (more depressed, maybe, but still better people), so maybe there’s something to this thing.
And if not, they could still break up and then Ruth could get with Dorothy and I’ll be all “Yay!”
I’d reply but Lilliet below me illustrated so beautifully why they are not good for each other it feels pointless to re-write everything.
Part of the reason I have a hard time rooting for them is that Ruth was physically and verbally abusive toward Billie. She exerted that sort of force over someone she had authority over. I know that she has issues, and I sympathize. I want her to get better, but I can also understand why Walky is upset here. He went to her because she is responsible for the people in her hall. They both knew what that would mean and she assured him she would do something to help, but didn’t. If they do decide to pursue the relationship moving forward, I really hope we see some sort of couples counseling. Something that helps them acknowledge the codependent and toxic start to their relationship, because otherwise?
Also: Ruth is totally an adult re: someone in authority. She’s an upperclassman! But yes, she’s also only a few years older and doesn’t have it all figured out. That’s life.
It’s not exactly like it’s the first time David Willis has written a compelling unhealthy relationship and the fandom has shipped it.
The general reaction wasn’t dramatically different when it was Amber and Mike in Shortpacked.
I don’t think there’s a sizable contingent of the fanbase that normally wouldn’t be into an unhealthy relationship, but makes an exception for Billy/Ruth because it’s an F/F relationship.
Considering how most relationships in fiction are written, even one as unhealthy as Ruth/Billie is still pretty good relatively speaking.
Billie/Ruth started with the latter assaulting Billie numerous times and eventually developed into an alcoholic suicide pact.
I’m hard pressed to think of a relationship more messed up that we were intended to root for, save stuff like Twilight where the bad aspects came from incompetent writing.
Amber/Mike
Eeeeeeehhhhh yeah that’s a good point. It was pretty quickly revealed that Mike had orchestrated the whole thing (like I don’t think it took longer than, like, maybe three months) and I feel the inherent silliness of Shortpacked! allowed it to become a genuine romance, but that’s fair.
Stop easily thwarting me with logic, Cerberus!
My evil knows no bounds!
A surprisingly large percentage of fictional relationships seem to be abusive. At least here they partially resolved the abusive part without acting as if it’s normal.
We are all sources of, and solutions to, problems at all stages of our lives. We don’t start being perfect at adulthood, but we do get the power to do a lot more, whether that be harm or good.
I’ll say this much, Walky: On what basis did you assume Ruth was an ‘adult’. I mean, it wasn’t a bad assumption but it was still an assumption and one, if you’d asked anyone on the floor (say, your sister or your girlfriend), would have very quickly been disabused.
Ruth may not have been the ultimate cause of the current crisis in Billie’s life (because she’s pretty much a victim too) but in no way was she capable of making things better.
She’s two years older – which is a big deal at that age.
More significantly she was the appropriate authority figure to turn to – Billie’s RA. Which isn’t the same as “adult”, but pushes a lot of the same buttons.
And she should have been capable of making things better – or starting the process by contacting those who could. Or at least not being so much part of the problem. She’s the RA. That’s part of her job. And part of why relationships with students aren’t permitted.
I’m with Walky on this one. Which makes it especially galling that we’re the source of all the gosh-dang problems.
I’m with Walky that Ruth was a poor choice for RA. Threatening new students is uncool. Pulling a student on your hall into an unhealthy relationship is uncool. And if you’re struggling that deeply with mental health problems, RA is simply not the job for you. I understand she needs they money and I feel for her but that does not negate my opinion on her qualification. I’m glad she’s getting help and hopefully will be in a better place to recover
Actually Walky has hit on several very important truths. Apart from the importance of responsible relationships from positions of trust/authority, nuance is very important.
I run into too many people who have picked a side. They are for queer rights, or for the support of women, or for the poor, or for empowerment of indigenous people. And having picked a side they will always throw in support for the side that supports the narrative they wish to tell.
And if the facts don’t match the narrative, if it turns out not to be a black and white case then “HOW COULD YOU NOT SUPPORT THE PEOPLE IN NEED YOU BIGOT!!!!!”. If I care about an issue, and someone identifies as an activist, I feel the need to fact check their stories twice as much. Quadruple if they are “on my side”.
Seriously, if you want to make positive change, give me a heads up when you are ready to consider some friggin nuance.
+1 Ditto
Ah, when a comment matches the Gravatar.
Oops, misread your comment.
I’ve written a bit about how I dislike what Joyce is saying in the last panel, but I guess a way to see it is that we should be willing to stick our necks out for people who will face shit from society at large.
I’m reminded of an article I read a while back where a black customer gave shit to a white waitress and went on about how he was glad about her white tears (or something like that. It’s been a while) and for the life of me I couldn’t bring myself to care. Yes it sucks and that guy’s a dick, but the country next door to me is having a decades long discussion over whether their police officers need to be punished for shooting unarmed black children.
Also said waitress then got a bunch of donations from other sad oppressed white people, so yeah.
I dunno, I guess I just don’t see it as a “I was a bigot on this issue, so idk woot all wlw relationships no matter how toxic and abusive”, so much as her acknowledging that her old pattern was to see negativity in any wlw relationship and so she’s actively been trying to correct that and recognizes that that means she might be overcorrecting because of that.
Like if she said that after Walky got done running down a list of all the times Ruth assaulted Billie? Holy fuck, Joyce.
But her saying that after Walky essentially goes on a rant about how Ruth is depressed and didn’t magically fix Billie’s depression saving him from the need for feels makes it seem the far more nuanced response in the circumstances.
But look at it from Walky’s point of view – flawed though that may be.
His best friend (who he may or may not know and accept has preexisting problems) is in a secret suicidal relationship with her authority figure, which has been aggravating (or possibly in his mind causing) her depression. Possibly abusive, since he just learned about the “threw me into a chair” and he knows about Ruthless’s fearsome reputation.
And Joyce says “It’s two girls, so I’m going to cheer it on.”
Looks pretty bad to me.
Mind you, the actual situation is far more nuanced and I’m closer to Joyce’s stance here: Cheering it on, though for different reasons. And it’s still an important bit of growth for Joyce, even if it is overcompensating for her probable instinct to condemn it.
Well, I mean, in his mind he’s very justified and yeah, he’s upset and that’s super valid.
But also in his mind, people bringing in nuance or their own experiences to a situation is something he has a history of seeing as an attack (again, thinking about his interactions with Carla and then with Dorothy).
And she didn’t even say, it’s two girls so I’m cheering it. She said, I have a history of bigotry so my automatic instinct is to cheer it on because I recognize that.
Which is not to diminish his hurt feelings. In my reading at least, he saw Ruth as potentially causing Billie’s depression and definitely for papering over it and for Billie being here in this clinic right now and dealing with stuff.
So yeah, just mildly frustrating because it’s Walky defaulting to anger or smug detachment and then getting upset that everyone doesn’t just fall on board with him again and that’s a rather negative behavior to keep falling into even if individual examples may be well justified by stress and the position he’s coming from.
Yes, Walky, you have a very nuanced viewpoint there. The depressed girl like two years older than you is definitely an adult, and it’s definitely her fault that she was depressed… and oh yeah, it was definitely her that was the source of Billie’s problems as well. Not her parents, not her self-destructive behavior, no, it’s just Ruth’s depression being… contagious, or something.
I mean, he has a point in what he tells Joyce, but the irony is just overwhelming.
Ehhh, there’s an unfortunate quote about stopped clocks. Walky is right about this, “Ruth should have reported Billie’s problems so they could be treated.” She didn’t because Ruth had Billie’s problems only worse.
Also Romance.
Yep, exactly – because Ruth had the exact same problems. And it’s pretty clear that she was fucked up because of her grandfather’s abuse… and for all we know most of her horrible behavior towards people on her floor is her mirroring what’s been done to HER… day and night, by an authority figure much closer and much more powerful than an RA.
As long as we are speaking about nuance, I would also like to bring up that Billie was pretty much nothing but a piece of shit at the beginning. She built up her reputation and self esteem by bullying ‘nerds’, and that included personally Walky. Yes, his self esteem appeared to be bouncy enough to just shrug it all off, but honestly I was seeing red so many times at Billie’s earlier behaviors.
And I feel like many commentors have forgotten exactly HOW the Ruth/Billie romantic relationship started. It wasn’t Ruth strongarming Billie into the relationship, although she tried that. No, Billie threw THAT in her face and ran off… only to get sexually assaulted by her newspaper boss in a similar manner, which if you ask me was ten times more fucked up (SHE EXPLICITLY CAME TO HER TO ASK FOR HELP WHAT THE FUCK).
Then there was a lull period when Ruth just wasn’t seen on the floor, Billie was effectively doing her job… and slowly growing more worried for her. It ended up with Billie pulling the fire alarm and dragging drunk Ruth into the shower to clean her up and that’s when power dynamics in that particular relationship were effectively reversed. Billie had a ton of blackmail material on Ruth, and was repeatedly and stubbornly inserting herself into Ruth’s life.
(At some point before the fire alarm Billie also broke into Ruth’s room to steal back her uniform and, well, GOT that blackmail material)
Yes, this relationship’s beginnings were super abusive, if we are talking about the whole ‘time Billie and Ruth knew each other’ as a relationship. But it specifically became a romantic relationship when that was over, and it was on Billie’s terms.
Another part of irony here is that for all that Billie is busting her ass to help her former bully, Walky’s doing the same thing. Billie wasn’t just an ass to him, she was pretty specifically trying to use him as a springboard to higher status by walking all over him. It was horrible, and if Walky can shrug it off and just go on his merry way worrying about his semi-sister, I don’t see why he’d deny Billie the agency to do the same thing.
(Because he’s a little kid looking for an adult to blame for this problem and Ruth is the easiest target)
Well said.
Liliet, you win the Imperial Comment of the Day Award.
That is a very good point about the Walky/Billie dynamics. I’m actually really impressed by the fact that Walky doesn’t seem to bear Billie any ill will about their high school experience (the phrase “stuffed into lockers” has been used).
But one point about that – Walky sees perfectly well that Billie CAN’T shrug it off like he did, that she is NOT doing well. That has been his underlying worry basically half of the comic, the growing realisation that Billie is not OK and growing worse.
I suspect ‘stuffed into lockers’ is metaphorical, because I’ve never seen a locker that can fit my slight frame in spite of going to a Good high school with a real budget.
BUt no, not quite. Billie did shrug off a fair chunk of the shitty, abusive behavior (we /are/ seeing Walky 6 months or more after Billie’s worst, after all, backed up with actual social status) The only reason we have to think that’s the source of her problems is, well. Walky. And I don’t generally trust the say-so of a man who proudly sprints away from feels as to why a feel is occuring, much less when it runs counter to my observations (with a better vantage point as a viewer).
Or his high self-esteem is a front.
I wonder if Billie and Walkie are a couple in the sense of this was an abusive relationship. Even the abuse is clearly over, Walkie still has a connection with Billie which sometimes over-rides his relationship with Dorothy, much to Dorothy’s mystification. Her reactions in the panels are somewhat less than happy? Bemused?
Walkie clearly has problems opening up to Dorothy. Now this may be wholly a male thing, but I also wonder if it’s also partly as a result of the abuse he received at the hands of Billie.
That’s a good question. Maybe Walky has the experience of bottling up his feelings – I doubt Sal was a positive subject in his house, and he’s learned that Billie, while obviously fronting about it, doesn’t care for his “unpopular”ness, and now he and Dorothy are not even sure what they are actually so it may be like “we’ll break up at the end of the year, what’s the point of me sharing my feelings”
I’d be surprised if he *knows* he’s bottling up his feelings. His defences may run that deep.
I’m also a little curious as to why he didn’t have it out with Billie when she crawled into his bed. Why couldn’t he be sure that his admonition of Billie (if that’s what he did) wouldn’t stick?
Why go to Ruth?
I think I’ve answered my question already: he sees Billie as the powerful one and telling her off – showing some anger or any feeling – would be out of bounds for him. I think she crawled out of bed, he waved good bye with no word, then he went to Ruth ….
Who of course was useless in this situation.
Because he did. Though I don’t know exactly what you mean by “have it out with”.
He tried to get her to talk. He asked her questions. She didn’t respond, even in monosyllable. Or move. He was freaking out. He couldn’t reach her. Admittedly he didn’t really know how to, but he can’t really be expected to.
So he went for help.
BTW, Billie didn’t crawl out of bed and leave. She didn’t move or respond until he brought Ruth back.
Also: I’m pretty sure that being angry with her wasn’t his reaction, repressed or otherwise. Or a good idea, for that matter.
He was terrified for her.
My mistake, I did not go to the next day’s panels.
When I say “have it out with her” I mean, talk to her about why she was in his bed. Ask her not to do it again, that *kind* of thing. I’d be a little curious at the very least. He could have done so when she came around a little later.
Also interesting that Billie was in control of the situation until Ruth arrived.
@Willoughby: I don’t think Walky was upset with her about that after his initial alarm at finding her there. Once he ruled out the most obvious reason for her to be there, he was only worried about her because he’d never seen her like that, and obviously something was very wrong.
@fart: he signally failed to follow up on the “something was wrong” business.
I dont think they’re that close, just a vestigial relationship from junior school.
In all fairness to Walky, he has incentive to keep Dorothy at arm’s length, due to the agreed-upon nature of their relationship. Opening up to Dorothy would get him more invested in a relationship that is supposed to end eventually.
His relationship with Billie, on the other hand, is a much safer investment.
Hmm, interesting point and if not her, we also know his family are not terribly big on supporting kids in emotional crisis and largely rewarded him for the ways in which he didn’t experience emotional crisis or doubts and was just a “good kid”, which probably didn’t help his natural inclinations for reaching out.
Damn. All of this. Like literally, every line.
That’s an amazing analysis of the situation and their histories.
(And totally agree on Daisy, like holy fuck, her actions there were straight up awful, pulling the same sexual harassment shit she just went through when she opened up to her looking for help and advice and to victim-blame her afterwards as a desperate attempt to save her own position was a total holy fuck moment and likely kept Billie from seeking out official school resources for dealing with all the stuff she was dealing with).
…Do we know that? Have th ey done that with Wally? Because like, ‘not helping Sal’ is not necessarily suggestive of how they’d help Wally.
I mean Linda is horrible to him in at least some ways, but.
Oh shit, it was in the same comment. Yeah, Daisy was being pretty fucking awful there. I try and just ignore it like I try to ignore a lot of folks problems, like ’em or not, since it didn’t feel like the narrative point, but jesus.
I dunno, I doubt it affected Billie’s later decisions, but I could easily see how it would
SO what exactly is the age difference between Billy and Ruth?
I kind of got the impression she was a young adult, the same as Billie.
Ruth is 20. Billie is 18.
Ah, here we are, the first person to blame a depressed person for their depression. I should have known it would be Walky.
even more worrying is the number of commenters taking his side, as though “this suicidally depressed person is a jerk for being depressed and it’s clearly her fault my friend is also depressed” is a respectable position to have.
I’ve lived Ruth’s depression. Seeing her completely shut down is basically me staring back three years ago where I didn’t care enough to function, and I’m starting to fall back into that in a lot of ways that scare the fuck out of me.
Walky wants to protect Billie, he went to Ruth because she’s supposed to push some kind of positive change forward, and instead Billie’s in a worse place. Now Joyce is talking about how she has to support them to earn her way out of being a bigot, and what Walky is hearing is that the suicide pact his best friend is currently involved in is a good thing.
Also, I’m gonna say a lot of us siding with Walky are expressing our dissatisfaction with the way Ruth has abused Billie previously.
Very much a good point. I hadn’t considered “what Walky is hearing is that the suicide pact his best friend is currently involved in is a good thing.”
Not what Joyce meant, but it definitely casts a different light on Walky’s last line.
Indeed. And I’m sorry about that, I am sending internet hugs.
*hugs* Keep fighting and let us know if there’s anything any of us commenters can do to help you fight against the spiral.
*internet support and good will*
I hope you feel better, and keep feeling that way.
Thanks again, everyone.
Today was a really bad day for me, but I also brought a dog back to its home so, uh, yay. I was all set to be miserable for the rest of the day and then an Irish Terrier started following me around. Kind of a mood whiplash.
Frankly, where it’s pissing me off is that I’ve watched Walky be a shit for the last… what, 3 weeks? Four? The commentariat has fallen all over itself to keep finding ways he’s right, about literally everything. And here he is, saying “fuck you for trying to avoid your bigotry, I want to be mad at Ruth some more because of a situation I know nothing about – so little about, that as far as I know, I sent someone to go see the source (according to me) of her problem. *I* clearly know everything about what’s wrong here, now, though. Unlike before”
*and here we are, the commentariat is still saying he’s right, and should be taken seriously. Again. As ever, and always.
I’m not saying he’s right. I’m saying he’s understandable. He does know more of the situation than Joyce does. Neither of them knows the full story.
But it’s a secret relationship – banned because of potential abuse of power. Ruth is known by all of them as Ruthless – scary RA who threatens her charges. It’s not clear how much either knows or remembers of the early abuse of Billie specifically – though she did just mention “threw me on a chair” to Walky. Who is also suicidal.
And Joyce is cheering this on?
I mean, I get why she’s doing that and it’s a good part of her development. I also get why it pisses him off.
Wasn’t it just a little while back we were all talking here about how toxic Ruth and Billie’s relationship was? Now we’re mad at Walky for thinking it’s a bad thing?
Hell, if I walked into that knowing only what Walky knows about them, I’d be thinking worse. The only thing that would give me pause from assuming Ruth had coerced or bribed or otherwise manipulated her into sex would be how Billie was clinging to her. And that’s not at all definitive.
Yes. *YOU* all were. Meanwhile I’ve been in a shitty headspace with a partner who was in a shitty headspace. One in which the omnipresence of stone barriers on bridges were a literal lifesaver. When there was like, two people who voiced any approval of the relationship, /after/ the lesbian suicide pact, those were days where the commentariat was a god damn delight to read, let me tell you what.
Half of that is shit Walky doesn’t know. And he’s not even saying it now. Incidental accuracy means little given how much of this is phrased in actual support of him. And it’s not even what pisses me off the most about him in particular.
*hugs*
Headspace stuff is always shitty. Here’s hoping that improves shortly. You are an awesome, wonderful person and I hope you keep winning the battle against the headspaces. As does your partner.
And yeah, fully agree that I’m just not seeing the signs in his dialogue here that he even has half the information the commentariat has. And his deduction skills for all his bragging have frequently been… let’s just say god awful to say the least of it. So I’m not really buying he’s sussed it all out from dorm rumors and Billie’s stray comment about being thrown into a chair.
I don’t think anyone’s literally blaming Ruth for having depression. I’ve had depression (and I think most of us have experienced it at some point too), and I’ve screwed up quite a few situations due the severity at times. I think what people are saying is, even though you shouldn’t be too hard on yourself, your actions still have effects on people.
As many people have pointed out, Ruth and Billie’s relationship is unhealthy because of the power differential, but also because the way it started, Billie was taking care of Ruth in the end, AND Billie eventually took it upon herself to hide both their issues, but mostly Ruth’s because Ruth would lose her job otherwise. Billie was not the RA there. She had no way of knowing how to handle it (and she didn’t handle it that well). Ruth was the one who was trained to handle it, and hiding things and never asking for help is not a good trait of an RA, even though she had depression.
Ruth was not at all in a place to be an RA, Ruth did not do her job of helping Billie through the usual channels – telling her higher ups, giving her resources to counseling (remember Billie is rich and can afford this) etc. I know about Ruth’s story and I empathize a lot with her, but how is Billie holding up in all this – already having depression/drinking problems, no coping mechanisms, and now her partner who she loves/is dependent on is suicidal – the point is that I feel for Ruth, but Ruth is not the *only* person being affected here. Billie must be devastated.
Even though Walky doesn’t know half the story that I just told, he’s also worried for Billie’s well being too, which is fair. Another commenter made a good point about, how when people interact now more often than not a “side” is taken and people make too many assumptions on a single opinion – two things can be true at once. Ruth is not responsible for having depression, but I think her relationship with Billie is also not healthy for either of them.
Walky knows the meaning of the word “nuance?”
Eh, I’m with Walky.
Ruth has hurt Billie a lot and then Joyce is all “yes but its yuri so that makes it okay.” If my best friend was in an abusive relationship/literal suicide pact I’d probably be a little curt with outsiders defending it too.
I took Joyce’s comment as “this is the way I feel, but I think it might be wrong, so I don’t really know what to do.”
As for Ruth and Billie: it’s true that their relationship started off as abusive, but (to the extent that they still have a relationship) I don’t think that’s the case anymore, and in my opinion (I don’t really have any experience/education with all of this) their relationship isn’t making their issues any worse than they would be otherwise. Both of them were depressed alcoholics on a downward spiral before the relationship started (no matter which point you choose as the actual starting point
Completely my own emotional history at play here but: Goddamn it Walky learn how to
have any negative emotion at all everbe scared without using fear to fuel anger and doing a shitload of splash damage to people who have nothing to goddamn well do with the fucking situation!Grah, I hate that toxic masculinity bullshit of men are only ever allowed to have anger as a negative emotion because fucking hell that toxic masculinity rule on its own is a huuuge chunk of why I wound up spending the night under a pier in sub-zero weather with only a T-shirt on because it was safer and more pleasant than being at home with my father who was upset with some work thing and using it as an excuse to pick fights in hopes he’d get an excuse to beat me up, put holes in the wall next to my head, and/or threaten to kill me. Again.
(See also: this is what I mean when I say my dad was a Blaine when I was a kid)
I am over-reacting to Walky, but my father’s abusive jackass behavior is exactly what Walky is doing, only with the intensity dial turned up to 11.
And on the other hand, I get where he’s coming from. Guy is terrified if he has even a shred of care and empathy for Billie in his body. And he does, as much as he tries to shut that part of him off because feels.
Buuut yeah. Walky has a bad habit of taking his upset emotions out on people who genuinely don’t deserve it (in this case: He feels weak and powerless, so when Joyce gives him an opening, he makes a snide remark to imply she’s incompetent to handle the situation, both to cover the fact that he actually is incompetent and to make himself feel more powerful – yeah, I wasn’t able to comfort well, but at least I know better than Joyce), and it is a thing that brings up shades of my father.
FUDGE YOU BLAI…. FUDGE YOU ISCHEMEGEEK’S FATHER!!!!!!!
So sorry about that. And I completely agree with that toxic masculinity bullshit. Hopefully I think Walky is in a good place to learn how bad it is and find a better script to function as a human.
*appropriate physical gesture of support* Fuck Blaine types and the way they create climates of fear for their children and sorry for everything you went through.
And yeah, I think the arc for all of the guy characters outside of Ethan (and maybe Mike/Jacob?) is “hi there toxic masculinity, funny to see you here, maybe I should actually slowly get rid of you someday so long as doing so doesn’t make me look too unmanly”, which is a common struggle for most men coming of age because toxic masculinity is so ingrained in our culture*.
And that can be frustrating for those of us who’ve experienced violence because of that toxic masculinity and that viewpoint of the only good emotion is anger (as a trans woman, I’m intimately aware of how my life can be at threat anywhere I go because of fragile toxic masculinity).
*It’s interesting that the two characters who’ve made the most progress on this are also the two queer guy characters, because they’ve had to deal with how their attractions alone make them “unmanly” in the eyes of toxic masculinity and that has allowed them to be more in touch with the other aspects of themselves toxic masculinity demanded they stop being in touch with (Ethan with openly liking things like pink and glitter on occasion, Danny with being more comfortable about the fact that he’s an empathetic fellow who deeply feels things sometimes).
Look at that face. Hank hasn’t seen a black man since the 80s.
To me the face reads of “I really don’t see the appeal to being in this drama.”
I take that as a reaction to “adults shouldn’t be the source of problems”. Lots of ways Hank could be taking that to heart.
Joyce: Honest to a fault. I can understand the conflict of feelings though. Sort of like the high a person gets when they first join a religion I think. You’re excited for a new world of thought and you want to do a good job and yadda yadda – then you normalize and balance out. Or crash hard.
ah man, walky completely failing to be self aware always gets me. seriously. Ruth is 2 years older than Billie… but since she’s an “adult” he already had this set of expectations about what she should be like, and when she didn’t live up to them he got pissed.
But yeah maybe JOYCE should consider some nuance, huh, Walky.
No, Walky. The nuanced view is “Adults can have problems too.”
They’re just more practiced at hiding them. Usually. Usually.
Walky, don’t act like that, please.
Everyone has their own problems, and you can’t blame Ruth for you not knowing the context of the situation and jumping to conclusions.
Although, being fair, I do feel like Ruth and Billie should have shared their situation with more people.
In short, no one is blameless in this, but, Walky, you don’t have to act like a dick about it.
Poor kids, they’ve been visiting that hospital WAY more than they really should be.
Would Joyce actually say that, though? Or be able to articulate it that well? I feel like that’s the words of an outsider analysis put into her mouth.
She’s already learned this weekend that her instincts are not great on this stuff (such as Jocelyn having to tell her not to burn Becky’s bridges for her, and Joyce only just stopping herself from getting into an argument with her mom when she made Becky wear that dress.
She’s realizing that she has more to sort out, so she’s (literally) looking to Dorothy for some help, since she’s been far more on the ball on this front.
As for HOW she’s saying this, I agree that the way she’s phasing it feels unusual for her. However, I think it fits with WHY she’s saying it. She has quite likely been doing some reading lately to try to learn how to be the best possible ally for Becky. Her reaction reminded her of something she read, so she’s phrasing it more like that than how she would talk normally.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/tyler/ Is this the Tyler who works for Robin? Do you think his browser history was a Checkov’s Gun that will relate to her re-election? Am I wildly overthinking the use of a fairly common name?
Dorothy”s light touch of caring gives me much hope for this ship”s continued existence.
I would never consider Nuance, they are shitty, overpriced speakers.
I kinda like Joyce’s take. “I’m an ex-bigot, so I’ma just gonna shut up and let things go as they will.” If only the bigots would do the same, the world would be a much better place.
Nuance is fine, once the bigotry is out of the way. Walky is right that a RA shouldn’t be sleeping with a student, regardless of the genders involved. Or drinking with a student, also regardless of the genders involved, but that issue hasn’t come up for air yet.
Walky has a semblance of a point. RAs are supposed to help and Ruth failed in that regard.
While I think Ruth/Billee ultimately helped each other and have a relationship with some great elements, and appreciate the hypocrisy of Walky telling Joyce to see the nuance of this situation- though Joyce also isn’t- I have to admit that he has some points.
Objectively, from a student like Walky’s perspective, Ruth is not a good RA. With few exceptions, she’s overlooked problems on her floor, been oblivious to them, or bullied her students. She has helped Billee more than Walky knows, but she hasn’t been the authority figure she is meant to be for most of the students, her relationship with Billee aside. It’s no doubt exacerbated by her depression, which is unfortunate, but that doesn’t mean the students under her don’t suffer because of it.
At the same time, her relationship with Billee, while VERY MUCH NOT the source of Billee’s problems or Ruth’s, did contribute to lowering her objectivity about Billee. Speaking from experience RA’s need to be ready to make hard calls to get students help and support if the student isn’t equipped to reach out when they need it. Being personally/romantically invested in someone under your RA-ship makes it harder to do that. Other power dynamics aside, Ruth became less able to report Billee’s emotional state, or deal with her own, because she was invested in their romantic relationship and afraid of the consequences in case they got caught. And the relationship put Ruth at risk, as seen with Mary’s bullshit, which certainly didn’t help things. So instead of being an objective “adult” authority figure a student like Walky expected when he reported his concerns about Billee, she was worrying about a relationship. And, given what he knows about their relationship so far, Walky has no evidence that the relationship was good for them, since Walky’s only context is speaking to Ruth, hearing they met with Ruth slinging Billee around, and now they have ended up in the medical center.
Of course Ruth’s emotional and mental state isn’t her fault, and she didn’t cause Billee’s emotional problems, and Walky is missing those details. But it’s been acknowledged for awhile that Ruth entering a relationship with Billee has presented professional and some ethical problems. And the net gain for Ruth and Billee might outweigh those problems. But it also presented problems and consequences, which aren’t erased “just” because Ruth is understandably overwhelmed and struggling with depression. He’s being an unfair dick about it, but, frankly, Walky isn’t pointing out anything that Ruth, Billee, and a lot of readers weren’t already confronting.
Wait, Walky wants to take the nuanced approach? I didn’t think he knew the meaning of the word “nuance”.