As a former ASL interpreter and someone that has auditory sensory processing disorders making me effectively hard-of-hearing, I heartily approve. It is one of the best ways to go off on someone without actually causing a confrontation.
Though, that said, I feel obliged to post a disclaimer.
Generally, learning only the swear words, sex-related words, etc in ASL is frowned upon. It is sometimes perceived as being offensive, ableist, or just plain rude by the Deaf community.
Just something to be aware of.
And yet, everywhere I’ve gone the first thing locals have taught me is how to swear. Unrelated: Croatian is an excellent language to swear in.
(I am not saying it is not a valid concern that learning only vulgar words in ASL is ableist or rude. I see where that comes from. I’m just saying people like to swear. Or maybe this says something about the field I work in. Hrm.)
The context is different, though. I’m not the right person to address this, but off the top of my head: being deaf can be really isolating because most people do not know any sign languages, and if people put in the effort to learn swear words but not the actual language… also there’s the issue of not being seen as real languages, and deaf children being punished for signing and stuff.
When I was in Germany (USAF’81) the German mechanics had a joke: Q.”What’s the longest word in American language? A. “Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit”
(pronounced like a Texan: Sheeeeeeet!)
Plus, I walked by some (non-english speaking) mechanics playing an arcade game, and heard one say “Ohshit” as one word. Goes both ways. ;o)
The beauty is that no matter how audacious she could get, I’m betting Toedad was exactly the type of misogynist to just believe that she naturally was that dumb and clumsy because that is probably his view of women.
Carol just darted out of the shadows like a ninja, disrobed Becky with a single slice of her katana, and then threw a smoke bomb on the ground. When the smoke cleared, Becky was wearing that dress.
Joyce being shocked at her own outburst is mollifying at the very least. If she had followed up her curse with a bird or two that’d have really pushed the ‘my little girl is being destroyed by that place’ sentiment.
Here at least it looks like she tripped up, just like a normal human being.
That is because she has a plan. By the way, in case this right, I do not subscribe to Patheon, so I have not seen future DoAs.
Joyce’s mom talked to the pastor yesterday, or even perhaps earlier, and she has a “special” sermon ordered. This is one about the “evils” of homosexuality and homosexuals, atheists, Jews, heathens, evolution, and all manner of other things. The idea is to “guilt trip” Joyce, and hopefully “turn Becky away from the Dark Side”.
All this will do, especially since Joyce is bound to either find out or figure it out, is get Joyce even madder at her mother (dad has earned some slack recently), work to drive Joyce away from her mother, and drive Becky away from Christianity.
And Joe, there are more passive-aggressive tricks that Joyce’s mom has. Especially when she has an “in” with the local pastor.
I mean, as restrictive as Carol has been with Joyce’s upbringing, I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t flip out because her eighteen year old daughter said a swear word. Honestly, the context in which she said it (“shit, my mom is trying to turn my friend straight”) is probably much bigger of a deal to her.
never underestimate fundies’ delicate sensibilities. on our last vacation together, my dad told my sister to “watch her language” for saying “Frick.” [not fuck, /Frick/] My sister was 26 at the time
Yeah, that little belt would look nice with a yellow dress, and then maybe a little more of that rickrack pattern so it at least goes a bit further up the skirt or something?
It’s… not particularly flattering. Or interesting. Like there’s that detail at the bottom and the belt’s a decent touch, but it definitely does seem to be made to be Modest and Appropriately Feminine while not Scandalous and Provocative. Adequate dress, but not actively cute (which you can totally do without being at all revealing, a nice pattern and a good color work wonders). I would totally wear Joyce’s outfit, or at least recommend it to someone. Becky’s, not so much. If you’re going with a maxi dress you need a little more than a tiny bow and belt and then one stripy at the bottom, at least do two.
Pink could work with her hair, but I would suggest adding some blue and/or black, and probably a change of shade pink-wise. It may not be her best color for the base of an outfit, but it could work.
My issues with the dress aren’t so much precisely how it looks, as that it doesn’t suit who Becky is. It’s a really infantalizing style (the bows; a colour that’s perceived as delicate in our society; a frilly hem). In addition, it’s a dowdy style (ankle length, not much shaping), suggesting that it’s for someone who is actually an adult – i.e. a fairly insipid, demure little mouse.
I feel like the fact that I automatically assumed “superglue” was a euphemism for semen and not that it was an excuse for Becky to get a haircut probably means I’m on the bad parts of the internet too much.
Yes. More to the point, superglue is probably more readily accessible to a girl living in the super-fundamentalist environment that they are. And you don’t have to get somebody else to, um, provide it.
I’m terrified to ask how you interpreted the scene where Mary squirted super glue all over Carla’s skates to ruin them… No, you know what, I’m good not knowing.
My brother once stuck a suction cup to his forehead, and had a red mark for over a week. He also once cracked his head open and needed stitches due to being hit by a rolled up sock.
I broke a toe in half kicking a nerf soccer ball once in the dorm common room once. I was sidelined for like four weeks.
(What really happened is that I got bumped by another player, and kicked the large wooden chair next to the ball. Made a REALLY loud CRACK sound, too.)
Goddamn. I question 11″ long piece of wood being a splinter.
I mean, okay, I have a 5′ long combat flute I made that I call “Splinter,” but that’s because of Stick from Daredevil (and “Splinter” from TMNT, yes same joke) and it’s a proper name.
Klutziness stories are always darkly fun, and I’ve spent many an hour swapping wacky injury stories with friends. A buddy of mine’s got a scar from a marshmallow. My best friend’s got one on her ear from a humidifier and one on her thumb from blocks. I’ve got one I picked up while dusting a shelf. And it’s actually in my legal file that if I GET a Darwin award, then someone had better tell the story to try and get some laughs at my funeral.
I broke my back sleeping. Turned over and my T12 snapped. The exact words the doctor said was “No, seriously, I see this happen in car accidents, how did this happen really.”
I have bone density issues, sometimes a bone will randomly break.
Silamy, you are like me… You didn’t trip, you just spontaneously tested gravity to make sure it works! I do it all the time! Somehow even in my wheelchair i figure out ways to test gravity. I’m just glad i have partial use of my bad leg and full use of my good leg otherwise i’d be not happy with how much my wheelchair falls over lol.
Moon- I’m told that “spontaneous gravity checks” are a scouting thing here -we are participating in a time-honored tradition!
Dara- The marshmallow was on fire at the time, so that story’s not too interesting. I’m trying to work up to that level of accident-prone (jesting about injury. Not a self-harm thing), but so far the best I’ve managed is to accidentally cut myself on onions. Repeatedly. Not with the knife I’m using to cut said onions. With the onions themselves. It’s amazing how many sharp edges round things can have.
Week-late response is by accident -I just found the above in my paste button so I’ve been scrolling back through the last few days trying to find where it went. Hopefully, y’all see the answers.
This guy I knew – a lacrosse player, JV I think? – was dating this girl I didn’t know because she was another school. And she also played lacrosse, and lacrosse is a non-gender-segregated contact sport, so when the teams played each other they collided but good and she broke her arm. And he was all OH MY GOD I’M SO DEAD but she was just kind of “eh [shrug]” and everything was fine, but he was pretty panicked until she was back out on the sidelines just going ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ or really more ^_(ツ)_/¯ since, you know, broken.
^E6000
can confirm, I’ve used it to fix musical instruments, and it seems to work even better than the original factory adhesive.
(and yes, these were for parts that are not meant to move.)
Main character from the Anime/Mange “Ouran Host Club”. A poor girl disguised as a guy on a scholarship at a posh high school. Typical wacky hijinks, and typical Japanese missing parent syndrome, with her mother dead, but with the twist that her father is a professional cross dresser. I liked it, but so far there has only been one season of the anime.
^
part of her background, which is revealed immediately after her actual sex is revealed, which is end of first chapter I’m fairly sure (first episode in the anime) so I’m not even gonna spoiler-warning this one –
basically her hair is super short because a neighborhood brat stuck gum in her hair, and being poor, she cut it all off herself, which is how it looked boyish among other things.
Yeah pretty sure. It involves getting superglue all over then trying to take it to the cleaners. Since superglue doesn’t come off most fabric EASILY well. burn it with fire.
Yeah, I was thinking she should just grab some scissors and chop it off at an angle from mid-right-thigh to left knee (to mirror her hair) and wear jeans under. Still not her color, though.
Oh god, never in jeans. I knew a guy from high school who had a friend who cut his junk on a zipper when he and a girl were getting frisky and he was going commando, even without them unzipped.
Am I missing something? Clearly this was a boundary overstep, but does Becky being gay really make the situation that much worse than if she was straight and just didn’t like dresses? The comic kind of implies that it does, in a way that would make more sense if Becky was trans (but she’s not). I’m not saying it’s not wacko behavior, but is it really lesbian-related this time?
no, the point is joyce is getting angry but then realizes she doesn’t know if becky is ok with this or not (more or less) becky’s sense of style after coming out show’s she probably isn’t which is part of where Joyce’s initial reaction comes from.
the color of the dress is more than likely intentional on carol’s part. carol more or less holds the same viewpoints as toedad about religion, so it wouldnt be a far stretch to assume that she holds the viewpoints on gender norms toedad does.
But is it intentional because “pink=feminine and must reinforce proper womanhood”, or is it passive aggressive “what color would look worst on the ginger?”
Not always. Until recently, had some faux-fundie friends (I say “faux” they preached rather more than they practiced and their morality was conveniently flexible) who told me that, since I was close enough to be more “family” than just “friend,” they could more or less dispense with any form of courtesy if I was in their house. The closeness has … evaporated over the last couple of years.
Wait, so… they said that since you’re close enough to be family rather than a friend, they don’t have to be nice to you? I mean, I do like my friends better than my family at the moment, but that still doesn’t make any sense. The only reason for this I could fathom is they just got tired of acting nicely.
I’ve gotten similar things – at its best, it’s more like “We don’t have to be polite or put on our best manners.” Nice, by the way, is very different than polite.
Ew.
*LOVE* that particular double-standard of “we must try to make you like us since you are not family and not expected to love us anyway” vs. “you’re family, you have to love us anyway, no matter how shitty we treat you”.
It seems to me from Joyce’s comment that Becky has never worn a dress very often. So this is exactly like she just didn’t like dresses. Because that is what it is.
Much like her hair cut was ‘too much Becky’ when Joyce first saw it. Becky has always been tomboyish.
Fundie christians (and other homophobes) often look at gayness as being a result of insufficient masculinty\femminity, so in Carol’s mind, putting Becky in a dress is a passive aggresive jab at her for the gender roles she swayed away from, if not an attempt to “fix” her viamaking her more femmine
It’s sort of a complicated thing because for a lot of gay people gender presentation is tied to sexuality. That’s why one of the first things Becky did when she had the chance was cut her hair (and why she probably risked parental punishment in the first place to “accidentally” have an excuse to cut it short) in a way that is emphatically Not Traditional Heteronormative Beauty Standards. (It’s also where you get butch lesbians, like say Haruka Tenoh.) Can’t weigh in as much on the gay male side of things but I’m pretty damn sure it’s a thing for them as well that coming out and saying “I am not part of this straight culture” includes also embracing things that straight culture also says they can’t because of their gender.
Like it’s not necessarily a gay thing the way Carol’s other comments are, but it definitely CAN be a thing related to it and also, as mentioned, it’s very much Carol trying to enforce femininity on Becky because she sees her as “lacking” due to being gay.
Haruka is really only butch compared to Michiru and the fact that the 90s anime always put her in men’s clothes. The original manga (and Crystal) can make her equally pretty as Michiru and put her in a number of feminine outfits, includeing a female school uniform
I’m aware, but 90s Haruka is still a good example of butchness. (And even her feminine outfits have much more of an edge to them than Michiru or most of the other cast.)
It’s because in their worldview one of the (many) crimes of The Not Heterosexual is a failure to conform to God’s Gender Roles, which are of course the ones they inherited from their parents, because obviously, duh. This is why the gay conversion torture camps all include aggressive sessions in gender-role compliance, amongst other things. That’s kind of the part which is easiest to make fun of, except where the direct intent is brainwashing you into compliance.
I don’t know if Joyce knows that, but that’s what you’re seeing here, which is why it’s creepier when applied to a lesbian woman than to a heterosexual woman.
What Dara, Regali, and Cephalo said. To the sect Joyce and Carol belong to, being gay is just a matter of an individual getting “confused” about “proper” gender roles, so Carol believes that by heavily enforcing a type of extreme femininity onto her she can “cure” her gayness.
And Joyce, being raised in that culture and knowing the way her and her sister were raised and how they were “steered” away from being sucked in by that “lifestyle” with gender stereotyped reinforcement, she knows exactly what Carol is trying to pull here.
So when Joyce says that line in Panel 2, she recognizes this as not only something very out of place on the very tomboy, soft butch Becky, but also an attempt by her mother to try and feminine out the gay in a deeply inappropriate and offensive way.
Jocelyne (currently known to her family as “Joshua”) is trans. The Browns have had a kind of suspicion about it for years, as indicated by Hank’s comments at the beginning of that last story that caused Joyce to freak out and the stuff about their youth pastor making sure they “promote proper gender roles” for their children, but they don’t actually know yet and as such have been misgendering her. But we the commentors know and as such the tags and comments all refer to her appropriately.
I did not realize I was so interested in Becky’s timeline before.
Like Toedad associated long hair with the all important woman hood so much that Becky had to fake a glue accident to get her old hair cut? How long has she been rebelling appearencewise and how long has she been aware of it and/or the reason
My impression was that her hair was more similar in length to Joyce’s in most of those. Whereas in the comic before it was cut, it was just about chin-length.
I’m pretty sure Hank said something like “When Bonnie passed last year, bless her soul.” or something to that effect. So yes, most likely she died about a year, year and three months-ish ago in-strip.
And there’s short-like-shoulder-length and short-like-SHORT. Shoulder-length’s shortish, but it still doesn’t carry the same Distinctly Unfeminine connotations a bob cut has.
Yup, her dad said she passed last year and the blue flashbacks at the house suggested that she cut her hair sometime after her mom attempted suicide but before the Toedad mourning in his office. So, most likely shortly after her mom passed in order to create some emotional separation and stop being reminded of her in the mirror every morning.
And I think at this point we can assume that Becky has been trying to sneak in small rebellions wherever she could what with the 40 sneak-outs, clandestine Seinfeld, and “accidental” glue spills.
Might be that her dad ramped up his religious fervor after her mom died and she pulled the superglue trick to get it back to the length she was used to after her started refusing to let her cut it ’cause blah blah crowning glory.
If fundamentalist Christianity works like fundamentalist Judaism, a woman’s beauty and femininity are directly tied to her hair -if her hair’s not long and healthy and pretty and properly cared for, then there is Something Wrong, and if it’s because of health, then she’s to be pitied, and if it’s not, then the Something Wrong is with her, and she is not only Not Beautiful, but also Not A Proper Woman -or less of a woman, or something like that.
Our ultra-ultra-religious types also have a special thing in there with married women shaving their heads, because a woman’s womanly glory is between her and her husband (hence the covered hair), and the chance that someone else might see ANYTHING is too much of a disgrace to risk, but that’s mostly faded out.
So Carol looks simply concerned in that last panel. Is it foolish of me to hole she’ll actually ask Joyce what’s wrong, give her a chance to speak for herself?
Particularly because Joyce is autobiographical, and, according to other commenters, Willis is still not on speaking terms with his mother, while having come to an agreement with his father.
Sure, not everything about Joyce probably mirrors things in Willis’s own life. (I hope that he didn’t have that run in with almost being raped, for example.) But this part does seem to follow.
So I strongly suspect that Carol will do something to cut Joyce off from her entirely.
Here’s to hope Joyce’s mom didn’t secretly meet with the pastor to have them tailored sermons thrown in the face.
Tho most already know that Becky is back thanks to her yelling back at her home, so there may be one about how “homosexuality is bad” either way. Maybe something about long hairs.
I have a nasty feeling that the “sins of homosexuality” sermon will be served with a side of “honor thy father and thy mother”. I want to be wrong, though!
How about “The Sin of Sodomy’. Had a guest sermon for that one. The point was about being welcoming to strangers, but it was just a couple of weeks after a active member of the church, who was gay, had passed away. His husband wasn’t…pleased.
Joyce’s reaction here indicates that Becky essentially never wears dresses, which makes me curious mostly as to her church wear from before the events of the comic. Church would have been the situation Becky would have been most likely to have been pressured into wearing a dress, but if that was a regular occurrence, I don’t think Joyce’s reaction would have been quite this shocked, even if she knew Becky disliked it.
Remember, Hank didn’t agree with toedad. Carol is as close as other Christian parents get to him; and she didn’t lose her shit when Joyce said shit. The church might be very lax, but also doesn’t discuss modern issues, I would guess.
Joyce’s outfit here makes it clear that skirts with leggings are welcome by their church at least. And that seems like something that Ross would have been okay with (especially with some persuasion from Becky’s mom).
Way back the first time we ever saw Joyce go to church she wore pants to it, so I assume her home church is cool with ladies wearing slacks as their Sunday best.
So that’s how Becky initially scored the short hair. Toe Dad struck me as the sort who’d insist on women having long hair and men having short hair so I was vaguely wondering about that.
Don’t know if anybody else pointed this out, but there is cursing (this would be ‘taking the name of the Lord in vain’) and then there are vulgarities (of which ‘shit’ is but one). And believe it or not, you can tell them to “fuck this shit” and they’re OK with that, but if you say “Goddamn it all to hell”, they’ll go ballistic on you.
Ah Joyce, that was great- it’s about you my friend Becky and your feelings take priority over mine here and I’ll right for you when you want me too and etc
That would probably be a Bad Time if Becky did get superglue on her dress. A lot of superglues have a weird chemical reaction with cotton? I got some on my pants once (not as a rebellion of pants) and oh my GOD it burned so bad I couldn’t get those things off fast enough.
1) Roll up the sleeves and stick something in them. Packs of cigarettes are traditional, but if you care about anything between your lips and your diaphragm try something else. An iPod, maybe.
2) Get some hyper-rainbowic tats all up and down your arms.
3) Add a vest-jacket in a dark color that doesn’t outright clash with the dress, but doesn’t match. Something with sequins and/or rhinestones and a high collar. Cover it with various patches and badges of various unwholesome causes, entertainment groups, or substances.
4) Swap out the shoes for combat boots.
5) Dye your hair something that doesn’t clash with that dress. I recommend stripes of green and purple. Both neon.
Ruining things to force small rebellions, the memories give her strength… but seriously, yeah, they did. I imagine a lifetime of small rebellions against Toedad was instrumental in giving her the confidence and emotional strength to run away from him when he tried to drag her away to get “fixed”.
You can batter and bruise and make Becky feel like shit, but you can never break her.
She really would flee the man with a gun. Again and again and how many times it took. Her father couldn’t break her with a gun. Her mother’s ghost couldn’t break her. Carol dang as heck sure can’t break her with an effin’ DRESS.
Oh, yeah, I took her 100% literally at her word. I have no doubts that what she said was her plan was very much her intended plan and she would have gone through hell and highwater to carry it out.
She’s been through hell, but refuses to compromise who she is for anyone and she’ll take a shitty situation in the now to keep it that way. I find a lot to identify with that.
Man, Joyce missed years and years worth of prep on laying low and keeping the peace in front of conservative parents. She is making some BIG rookie mistakes. First tip, that idealistic disposition and strong sense of justice compelling you to debate with your family? Smother that shit for good.
I’m a red head, pale with freckles. As a kid I was a tomboy like Becky. I never liked dressing up, period. Jeans and a t-shirt or turtle neck and I was, and am, happy. I know how to wear formal wear or just dress’s, I’m just not comfortable in them.
I’m straight. That said: I do not think that this is a gender thing.
I think Carol is just rude to have handled the situation the way she did.
Imo that dress is so absolutely wrong on Becky as to just not list the ways. Color, style, length. But again, it’s not the dress’s style or color imo.
It’s all about control.
I think a better way to handle this would have been to suggest Joyce find something more appropriate for church from her wardrobe. But Carol is not interested in being polite to Becky.
Congrats! to Joyce for holding her temper and checking with Becky first for her opinion.
It’s definitely a gender thing. It’s a “You must conform to gender roles and must do so conspicuously” thing. Thus, full dress and thus pink. In the screwed up fundie world (and even, though less so, in mainstream culture), being gay is tied to not being feminine (or masculine for boys) enough.
See also Toedad on Becky’s hair.
Maybe, maybe not. Willis has put a lot of time and effort into drawing accurately detailed backgrounds just to cover them up with characters and dialog balloons.
Yup. There was some discussion about Becky’s hairstyle during the flashbacks during the breakin. It seemed like she had cut her hair short at one point before leaving for college, something that seemed strange given ToeDad’s… ToeDadness.
He meant he’s been slowly giving us more information about what’s happened in her life, and when. We knew from nearly her first appearance that she was a freshman, and was taken out of college within weeks of her arrival. We now know that her mother died within roughly the last year, for example. Recently, we found out that her mother made a suicide attempt at some point before her death. Today, we found out that she managed to get a haircut “last summer” by faking an accident. Whether that’s the summer that was a few months ago, or the one that was slightly over a year ago, I’m not certain.
Panel 1: Oh man, Joyce’s face of panic in that first panel. She is so terrified of her mom and that passive threat to yank her out of school. I really hope that the distance away and some coaching with Dorothy helps let her realize that she has far more power than she assumes and that Carol’s power while capable of making her life very unpleasant and hard, is nonetheless limited in how much she can actually do to destroy her life.
Also, I love Becky just noting the cursing attempts.
The face from the mom is super interesting though and I’m not sure how to read it. Embarrassment and hurt at being called out for being “weird”, worry that she’s losing her daughter to “lesbionic lusts and temptations”, sadness that her beautiful baby girl has “degraded herself” to cursing and thus revealing the extreme amount she has “fallen from grace”…
There’s so much in that little expression and there’s a lot of potential ways to read it. Hopefully we’ll get more context… or rather I hope we don’t, because that’ll probably mean we’ll see Joyce overhearing scary triggering stuff again.
Panel 2: Joyce knows what’s up. It’s been mentioned above, but Joyce has already mentioned that her church’s beliefs that gayness is caused by a lack of “proper” enforcement of gender identity and knows that the belief about gay people she was raised with sees them at best as confused sinners just lost and confused about their gender role.
So she also knows that this is some grade-A corrective shit that Carol just tried to pull here. Forcing her into that dress is the discount method of trying to “pray away the gay” and Joyce is in no doubts about its intention or meaning.
And poor Becky, she knows she is a woman and she is happy about that, but she is not particularly interested in being high femme. She’s a tomboy, a soft butch, and is not particularly at home in a “little pink bowtie” frumpy church dress.
And her dialogue here reveals just how forced it was upon her by that angry Carol, probably mixed in with a fair amount of haranguing her about “ruining families” and “leading her daughter astray”.
Panel 3: So, it’s no wonder that Joyce is ready to fight. Hell, she’s been ready to fight with her parents since the kidnapping and the near shooting. And at some point, when she is safer and not in their terrifying home court, she should have it out (ideally over the phone at an emotional and physical distance).
Panel 4: But I’m so proud of her checking in with Becky before trying to “fight for her honor” as it were. Becky’s been trying hard not to escalate things too much with Joyce’s folks and it’s nice to see Joyce recognize that its better to ask before risking another person’s safety and well-being by trying to fight without checking in.
It’s also a sign that maybe she won’t take away the full Jocelyne of going completely turtle when at home, but rather strive for a balance of careful and intentional engagement, not being drawn into reacting to every passing snipe.
Panel 5: “Accidentally”. Bob damn do I love Becky and her unbreakable anti-authoritarian streak. You can “beat” her in the moment, but she is a damn wizard at semi-passive resistance and not letting her core self ever be broken no matter what.
I really want to see her build a life where she never ever needs those skills again.
With regards to Joyce’s reaction to her mother’s enforcement of feminine gender norms, I’m very curious as to how she’ll react when she realizes that she was going to try the exact same thing on Ethan. Don’t get me wrong, Joyce has made a lot of progress and I don’t want to take that away from her. She should keep moving forward and be proud that she’s learning. I don’t want to be the ‘Roz’ and start insulting her for being late to the party, I just worry that she might have that reaction towards herself and she really doesn’t need that kind of self-doubt right now.
Also, I concur with that last sentence about wanting Becky to build a life where she doesn’t need that resistance all the time. That said, I’d love to see her find other uses for it once she has that life, because letting skills like that go to waste would be a tragedy.
There’s many reasons to dislike Carol but right now what grinds my gears is her flat rejection of Becky.
I wouldn’t expect her to react as well as Joyce did, but more like Joyce reacted to Ethan?
“Gayness is wrong but I’ve know you’re a good person so I will try to cure your gayness through love and understanding as approved by Jesus”
I mean OF COURSE that particular attitude is still fucked up, but a bit less? Maybe I’m just rambling here.
Yeah, I agree. It would cost Carol NOTHING to be civil to Becky. She would have to compromise none of her values or principles, would not have to admit to being wrong in any way, just ease off and let the homeless, parentless girl alone for a little while.
The sad part is that I think you are completely right. She thinks of Becky not as “Becky” or “Bonnie’s kid” or “Joyce’s best friend” or “The girl who practically grew up under my roof” or “the poor thing.”
You don’t understand Bagge. Becky is a “sinner” and showing kindness to “sinners” and accepting them without constantly condemning their “lifestyle” and trying to convert them back to the way of the Lord is to invite Satan into your very home to corrupt it to the core and steal your children away, just like what happened to Toedad.
Any good Christian of the sort of morality of Carol knows that one must be firm and strong against the deceptions of Satan and you must at all times either be saving the souls of those falling into temptation (cause the Rapture is happening any day now and woe be to the mother who loses her children forever to the fires of Hell just because she let herself be weak to the entrance of Satan’s emissary. And woe be her if she was denied the kingdom of Heaven for not staying resolute against the wages of sin and trying to save the fallen creature infecting her home through this passive-aggressive display.
Are you asking her to sacrifice her entire family to sin simply out of some petty empathy for a woman who is homeless and orphaned, when it is her own sinful demonic queer actions that lead to that reality in the first place. That’d be like feeling sorry for the boy who murdered his parents because he’s now an orphan.
/Carol perspective
Bob damn do I wish I did not intimately know this type of thinking and the immoral rot it encourages.
It’s Mary’s “if evil weren’t nice no one would bother with it” writ large and its the unbending style of construction that leads to real world violence like Orlando or comic world violence like Toedad.
Yup, it’s a mindset where moralistic conversion is always the best action to be doing. Because the end of the world is nigh and every soul not saved will be burning in Hell for all eternity facing untold suffering simply because “good” Christians didn’t fight hard enough to save them.
And since every alternative belief is naive and wrong and been lied to by Satan’s tricksy influences, they feel no regard for other people’s belief systems and religions. “Deeply held beliefs” for other people is Satan leading them to a lifestyle of sin and denying the “obvious truth” of Jesus’s eternal glory and the one path that can spare them from God’s loving awesome not at all abusive wrath.
So, if someone says they are happy and fulfilled being jewish or muslim or an atheist or see nothing wrong with a lifestyle that isn’t filled with the minutae of sex-phobic nonsense that theirs is, then that person is a fool preparing to jump off a cliff face because they think there is land and it is up to you to wake them up from those delusions in order to save their soul.
And once you get kids wound up in that philosophy, you get things like poor Joyce freaking the fuck out because she doesn’t want Dorothy and Becky to go to Hell and figuring out the loophole that means they won’t and ripping herself up about every errant naughty thought.
Y’see, parents, especially mothers, have a super-power: Once you’ve developed the skill of pouring a wriggling toddles into their clothes, that skill (and attitude) never really goes away. Frankly, Becky never stood a chance against a four-times champion!
Now, I wonder just how long Becky has been arranging ‘accidents’ to get her aesthetic own way?
Once again, the benefits of motherhood; I’m sure she’s used to carrying around ‘outsize’ loads single-handed whilst holding a struggling toddler under the other arm!
Maybe if she works at a daycare. It’s been about sixteen years since she’s had to deal with a toddler of her own, and it doesn’t sound like there are any grandkids yet.
If it’s cool for me to ask, how did you like the resolution to the Mary/Carla thing? That Carla told Ruth to stop using her to cudgel herself with guilt, and then went and dealt with Mary in basically the most Carla way possible?
Personally, it addressed every problem I had and I really liked it, so I was wondering how you felt about it. It’s totally okay if you don’t want to answer that, though.
I can see how the Mary/Carla arc would end satisfactorily for most people and even be very cathartic for people who wish they were as strong as Carla in handling it and being that bold.
For a lot of us, though (and my group of buds who are entirely LGBTIA+ ), who have been long time readers of DoA and Shortpacked… I dunno, it feels a little insulting. The whole ‘just fight back!’ narrative when written by a cishet has these hints of privilege that come from a place of simply being unable to understand the position we’re in. Compared to how most of our characters get turned into either punchlines or soapboxes? It was done really well considering Willis hasn’t gone through it. It’s very clear he listens to people of different walks.
I’m a storyteller myself so I know I can be extremely picky and easily disappointed. Overall (I’ve mentioned this a few times before) I’d rather see LGBTIA+ folks tell their own coming of age stories, rather than cishets trying to tell them for us.
Example, Carla’s coming of age arc being about being a lady in STEM rather than LOL IM A TRANS GIRL. That’s not a perfect example but… I’d feel more comfortable reading that trying to trudge through a cis person trying to relate a trans story (being a trans dude, myself). I hope that makes sense.
Yeah, I can definitely see that, and I’m sorry that it didn’t work as well for you as it did for me. I did hugely dislike it all at first since I was so convinced we were getting the typical Ally narrative about Ruth proving she’s a hero, but Carla’s cold, swift, and absolutely ridiculous revenge was basically everything I could have asked for.
I especially thought your point about the “just fight back” narrative was extremely informative and usually not applicable to real life situations like this, but I also really really really really loved that Carla made it clear that she wasn’t going to be anybody’s victim. Ruth stands around feeling sad that she let Carla down and Mary feels smug that she used Carla to get back at Ruth, and Carla tells them both off. Fuck that shit. She’s Carla, she’s the best, she’s in control, she’s the lead, and everyone’s gonna know it. Quit being such a depressed ninny, Ruth, cuz she’s got this. What’s that Mary, you think you won? Well here’s a motherfucking pie to the face while she spells out her name in lights!
As for your last part, I absolutely understand and hope that nobody ever tries to take that from you, but I also feel it’s important that artists create what they feel is right, and that it is likewise important that we also say “this is a thing i don’t like and have xyz problems with it.” I know Willis ain’t bi, but he still writes some damn good bi characters, and even if there’s occasional instances where I think it’s getting uncomfortable, I still feel it’s important that he chose to be inclusive. Not just for himself as a content creator, but also for marginalized groups who don’t get to see themselves in fiction. Everyone in the webcomics circle knows what DoA is, and the massive success Willis has with this series, that he has people giving him five grand a month so they can read the next strip a day early, I think is extremely positive, because it shows all writers that it’s worth being inclusive. That it’s time to let go of all the bullshit reasons we chain ourselves to in fear of the dreaded political correctness.
Like, if Willis chose not to include any queer or minority characters, and made all his leads straight cis white dudes with Joyce as the token female, then what do we gain? We’d just be losing out on a genuinely important work of fiction that shows you can be hugely popular and also representative. We’d lose a series where a neurodivergent woman tells her peers to stop treating her like a child and pursues a relationship she gets happiness and fulfillment from. We’d lose a series that speaks at length about how committing a crime as a child shouldn’t tarnish you for life, that crimes are paid for and then life just goes on, and the love of a parent shouldn’t be conditional to that. We’d lose a series where a bi dude gets fed up with feeling guilty over fancying a man, and boldly tells him that he’s attracted to him; not because he wants to date him, but because he won’t allow himself to be ashamed of it anymore. We’d lose a series that shows an abuse victim with a mental health disorder coping extremely poorly with her trauma, and instead of going the typical route of treating her as a wild animal the way basically all other fiction does, the point to her character is that she deserves support, and that the people around her love her because she’s worth being loved. Heck, we’d lose a place that prompted these discussions, and created an avenue for people to come forth with their experiences. A huge part of my acceptance of my sexuality was just talking about it here, because I knew this was a space that accepted bisexuality, and I couldn’t talk about in real life.
Ah, see, when I say I don’t want cishets telling our coming of age stories… I don’t mean delete diversity. Absolutely have a bunch of gay, lesbian, bi characters and people of all ethnicities and absolutely no white cishet dudes in your stories- no matter what demographics you belong to.
I feel as if the series that does this best imo is Steven Universe, honestly. Where these diverse characters just unapologetically exist without their personal story being all about their Oppression. We get diverse fiction without people trying to figure out how to tell our coming of age stories.
I have this same problem with Krem in DA:I. I was so excited to see a trans dude in the story. But… not only was he voiced by a cis lady, his entire dialogue tree was there to Educate The Bigots on trans issues. Then Dorian’s story is just about how “weh my dad doesn’t love me because Im gay”. Everyone got these deep intricate character arcs about their goals and dreams and aspirations and skeletons in the closet- and Dorian got “Im gay” as his personal quest.
I feel as if gay people should gay stories about being gay. Include us in your stories if you dont belong to those demographics. But you dont need to write about us coming to terms with being gay or the struggles that come with it. We know. We live it every day. It’s what I meant about Carla being STEM rather than her arc being “lol Im trans”. Absolutely still have her be trans! I could just seriously go without having Mary have a part in this at all except for being a jerk specifically to Joyce about faltering in her faith or something like that.
I know many people in the LGBTIA+ circle that feel differently than I do about this issue, it’s just my two cents. Even if it still personally makes me uncomfortable, I really am truly glad other people can get so much out of this comic and the story it tells that includes people that look like them.
…the girl that drove her poor father nuts when she turned her back on him and the Lord by choosing to be gay is coming to the community church where they all know and like him and disapprove of her?
This is not going to end well.
In this case, in her own fumble fisted way, it looks like Joyce’s mum is trying to protect Becky.
I feel bad for Becky, she expects to be treated the same as everyone else, with no difference in attitude between when she was thought of as straight and when she came out. What a ridiculous concept.
I may take a break for a couple of weeks. This strip is tying into some depressing stuff, for me.
I’m not sure if Becky does expect to be treated fairly. Joyce expects that but she’s naive and optimistic by nature. Becky, I feel, is doing this for the sake of her own faith and spirituality and I suspect, if anything, she will be protective of Joyce if others criticise her for associating with her.
Yeah, Becky knows damn well she’s not going to be treated the same. She SHOULD be, of course, but she knows better.
She’s here for Joyce. The rest she can survive. Because she’s Becky and none of this can break her. And there’s a dinosaur girl waiting for her back home.
Becky’s still faithful and has gone to church with Joyce and Sierra back at IU. She’s just more willing to acknowledge things that her upbringing hid from her.
> In this case, in her own fumble fisted way, it looks like Joyce’s mum is trying to protect Becky.
I can see that, but I don’t see the intent in Carol’s actions.
I think it’s more to do with Carol’s view of herself in the community, not wanting to be seen with someone who’s not only rumored to be a godless lesbian but, gasp, dresses like one so is one.
Actually Carol thinks that Ross has suffered by, er, association with his daughter. Carol plainly thinks that Becky is the cause of Toedad going to jail; pretty certain that the rest of Carol’s community will think so too. I’ve seen this sort of behavior in small towns.
I’m going on Carol’s behavior towards Becky and Becky’s astonished reaction to the dress.
I’m not sure what you’re going on other than a Panglossian view of human nature which isn’t warranted by any reading of the text.
It seems to me that Carol is forcing her idea of gender stereotype on Becky in order to stifle any concern that Carol is being tainted by that “evil girl.”
Oh, I guarantee the dress has literally zero to do with protecting her, but on the point of Becky and this church… yeah, this is literally the worst place for her to go. The sermon is guaranteed to at least reference her offhandedly, likely in a supremely negative way, either preaching against her sexuality, praising Toedad’s actions, or condemning her specific actions.
This is also the church that Toedad had no doubt would support his efforts to “cure” her and which many of the attendees will see as someone to minister to or harangue to prove their faith. It is a church that quite literally hates her and sees her as subhuman garbage. This will be brutal for her and I expect that she’ll be trying to stick to Joyce like glue for as much of the services as she can.
But it’s something she will try to push through by burying all her emotions and riding it out best she can because she is here to support Joyce and Joyce is not going to be ready for how devastating and hurtful today’s sermons are going to be.
This is an incredibly brave action by Becky, the bravest as there’s no way for her to know if her old pastor was informed or in on Toedad’s plans for “correction”. And I would not be surprised if this sermon is the thing that gets through her armor a bit and lets her show that vulnerability she did with Dina up in Joyce’s room or that she did with Joyce on the dorm hall steps.
You remind me of Mary. Obssessively ascribing malicious intent to everything and everyone will make you feel better for a while, but will end with you covered in pie.
I do not think you are a good person, please refrain from talking to me.
There’s a good chance they aren’t wrong though. Though I doun’t think we’d see outright approval of Toedad’s actions. Nobody likes hearing about guns being brought to school. Rather, I could see a very backhanded victum condemnation, say, lamenting “the horrific sins in the world around us, even in one’s own family, that can drive one away from Christ and to wrath” That kind of narrative.
Cerberus did not ascribe malicious intent to Becky’s actions, yet you blasted across that with your big paint brush as if Becky did not exist.
I think you don’t like gays, pure and simple. Becky did not choose to be gay, she just is. Becky didn’t drive Ross nuts … he was nuts already, probably having driven his wife to suicide.
> I feel bad for Becky, she expects to be treated the same as everyone else, with no difference in attitude between when she was thought of as straight and when she came out. What a ridiculous concept.
Yeah, she should expect disdain, judgement, hell fire and brimstone to rain down on her.
Bloody hell.
Maybe – maybe – the Christian community could stand up to it’s headline features and expand that love to everyone. She should expect sympathy and understanding. Instead Carol hounds her day and night, and forces her to wear a dress in order to feminize her.
Further Carol is trying to force Joyce out of college. If this is not the sign of an evil, introverted, religious fruitcake I don’t what is.
Hey, don’t. There’s no evidence that Skizz is secretly a bigot or any of that nonsense.
To Skizz-
I’m not sure what I said that so deeply offended you or earned your enmity, but I’m sorry that I have. You mentioned up above that stuff is tying into depressing stuff, I’m sorry if I exacerbated that and I hope you stay safe and offer you a supportive gesture of encouragement if you were inclined to still accept it from me.
I know it is not much, but I can offer this. I grew up in this environment, the environment of this type of Church. This is where I got my ass literally beaten for being a queer homo deviant. I’m not speaking out of some desire to be so negative for coolness points. I’m speaking from memories. I don’t know if it means anything or just makes it worse, but I can leave it like that at least?
I dunno, I’ll admit, I was a bit taken back by your comment and not sure how to respond to it.
I’m glad you’re not badly upset, Cerberus. My immediate feeling was that anyone who said that you of all people were not good needed a flamethrower pointed at them. You’re one of the goodest people I know of. As you’ve just shown again by asking yourself what pain the other person was in, to have said that, and by trying to mitigate it. I want to grow up to be you, even if you’re younger than me, which I don’t know one way or the other.
You all seem to have read a lot into a brief statement and an avatar. I am not the one making biased assumptions here. Or threats. Or accusations.
I asked one person not to speak to me and got the usual run of self justifications and recriminations.
Apparently, I am straight Christian woman, with no knowledge of any of the issues being raised. One that should be burnt with a flamethrower, after having a bunch of words put in my mouth.
So, there no enmity. I just find you (and your sycophants) mean spirited and as small minded as those you are seeking to condemn. If the characters were really as two dimensional as your interminable writings suggested, no one would be reading this strip.
The request was, please refrain from speaking to me. Honour that request.
Ascribing malicious intent to those who’ve already been clearly shown as the villains of the piece is not much of a stretch. At this point, pretending Carol (or John. Or Mary. Or Ross, back before he pulled out the gun) isn’t likely to be doing something horribly damaging at every step is where you’re far more likely to go wrong.
Maybe your problem is really with Willis’s writing? How often has Cerberus actually been wrong predicting something nasty from any of the strip’s fundy bigots?
That’s the weird thing to me. I’m not really sure where even the disagreement is. OP basically said, “the church isn’t a big fan of Becky right now and will probably say some hateful shit and it’ll end poorly” and my post was pretty much “yeah, that’s gonna be a rough one for Becky all right”. So, it definitely felt out of left field to be rounded on like I was a bitter transphobe stalker, but wevs.
I guess I’ll have to make a mental note not to respond directly to the OP’s comments or something from here on out? I dunno. This feels hella weird.
It’s something Jocelyne imparted onto her at the diner. Joyce wants to get angry and throw herself to the wolves to protect Becky, but in doing so, she can make things worse for her. Joyce has her family to fall back on, even as she’s fighting them, but if Becky ever crossed a line, or Joyce crossed that line for Becky, she’d lose even the extremely tenuous grip she has with them.
Carol had this well planned. The dress is the right size, and the shoes match. Wait, pink slippers? I wonder what will happen if she clicks her heels together six time (double to make up for the lighter shade) and says “There’s no place like Dina’s room” a few times? A house dropping on Carol wouldn’t be out of place, but it would be a bit rude since Becky’s a guest.
Man, Joyce’s mom looks legitimately hurt and concerned instead of full of fury. Will she worry over her alienation from her daughter and try to understand why it’s happening? Or will she snap even harder and blame Becky even more?
If Joyce’s parents are anything like mine, any guests are also expected to go to church with them, regardless of religious affiliation. This continued until I was at least 30 years old. I’m not sure if it’s some kind of weird passive-aggressive way of churching the unchurched for one Sunday or whether they are so used to everyone who visits be the same flavor of religion that they never thought about it.
SO PROUD OF JOYCE for asking before going ballistic! Progress is being made!
How do you speak reason to a bigoted family member about certain issues without them feeling like you’re dismantling their entire value system, and also that you are going to hell?
Depends on whether or not you still want them in your life or not. So either very carefully accepting a lot of dismissal of humanity or awful bigoted statements and calling them out where it is safe (especially if it doesn’t actively affect you or they don’t have direct power over you, so they don’t feel safe to spout bigotry in shared spaces and make those with those identities or who know people with those identities feel unwelcome and unsafe).
Or, going, fuck it you piece of shit and just letting them have it because bottling it in is literally ripping you apart and you don’t care anymore if they never talk to you again.
There’s probably a third method, but I have never reliably found it.
My approach has been to firmly/angrily lay out rules delineating what you’re willing to put up with, and when they break them, walk out. And don’t come back unless they agree to follow your rules. If they break them again, walk out again.
This is basically the “fuck it” route, but with less deliberate bridge burning and leaving a back door open for the bigots to decide which is more important to them: being shitheads, or having you around. Note that this approach only works if you’re willing to let that door stay shut forever if they don’t decide to play along.
It’s worth noting, I think, that there is no indication that Carol has berated Joyce for her choice of language in any way. Indeed, she seems more than a little scared of her in panel 1. I’m wondering, just wondering, if she’s starting to worry that maybe she’s pushed her daughter too far, just as Hank warned her she would?
Good for Joyce… it’s easy to get mad on behalf of someone else, but we always need to wherewithal to ask how they want it to be handled. To assume is disrespectful. Rock on.
I’m reminded that Roz basically did just that. Getting mad on behalf of all the queer kids whose struggles she personally blamed Joyce for, over the insistence of Leslie telling her to knock that shit off.
Which is a learn every new activist learns often by making at least one big mistake where they bowl over the group they were trying to help and needing to be called out on that (Joyce by Jocelyne, Roz by Leslie).
Oh yeah, I know. I’ve done it myself, and it’s why I’m looking forward to some Roz focus this chapter, and we can see her start to temper that brashness into something mature and genuinely helpful.
There’s nothing more poisonous to a stance on social justice than knowing you’re right.
Carol’s lack of a big reaction to Joyce’s swearing has me worried. Somehow I don’t think church service is going to be as “safe” as Joyce thinks it will be.
It does seem uncharacteristically stupid that neither Becky, Joyce, nor Jocelyn(sp?) thought of the possibility that the congregation might make another attempt to abduct Becky off to reorientation camp.
I’d give Becky and Joyce a pass, since they haven’t had time to adjust to the full scope of their new reality. And on the flip side, Jocelyn’s been dealing with it for so long that it might not occur to her that those two need the reminder.
Maybe I’m not paranoid enough, but I don’t think it’s going to be that. I don’t think the congregation is that far gone – Hank isn’t certainly and I imagine there are others.
Doing something that drastic, that openly, would need only one person to blow the whistle. And frankly, if Carol (and Hank?) were down with it, it would be much easier to disappear Becky from the house.
I fully expect a lot shaming and victim-blaming and a lot of apologetics for Ross (How could you drive him to do that?) It’s going to be horrible and I suspect Becky is braced for it, even though Joyce isn’t.
I understand why many of you think this church service is going to be bad, and everyone is going to blame Becky for her father’s current status. It could very easily go that way. But on the other hand, Toedad wasn’t a very likeable guy. Hank only tolerated him, and confessed to wanting to punch him himself. I don’t imagine he was alone in that feeling. Toedad probably got on the nerves of a lot of other church members too. I foresee Becky getting mixed reactions from people, some sympathetic and supportive, and others judgemental. But time will tell.
Coming from anyone else I’d’ve taken the gesture of giving Becky church clothes (since she’s limited on those atm) as… Sweet, almost? Of course she is doing it with the added trying to make Becky look more “normal” by her (and the fellow church members’) standards.
I’m quite concerned for Joyce in the third panel, she seems to be able to go from calm and collected to Joyce smash in a matter of milli-seconds and back again
Its not the first time either so I’m thinking that can’t be good for her long term stability
Also Carols got a rack to rival Billies in that first panel…looking good Mrs B
That seems entirely normal for any rationally-minded person? o.O It’d be far more concerning if you couldn’t rein in your emotions as needed.
In any case, that’s more in vein to what I’m used to [from anyone that isn’t overly emotional, bipolar, or a child].
Rather, it shows a notable amount of maturity- which is remarkable when you think of how she was at the start of the comic, and how little time has actually passed in dumbi-verse.
That’s the thing though is that she hasn’t changed all that much in that she can go from calm to angry just like that (imagine I just clicked my fingers) and then back again
She seems like a naturally aggressive person that just happens to have been born into a fundie family, I’d hate to imagine what she’d be like if she were born male and in a different family entirely
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hey Joyce, here’s how you talk shit in front of your mom w/o getting into deeper shit
As a former ASL interpreter and someone that has auditory sensory processing disorders making me effectively hard-of-hearing, I heartily approve. It is one of the best ways to go off on someone without actually causing a confrontation.
Though, that said, I feel obliged to post a disclaimer.
Generally, learning only the swear words, sex-related words, etc in ASL is frowned upon. It is sometimes perceived as being offensive, ableist, or just plain rude by the Deaf community.
Just something to be aware of.
Good to know, thnx! 🙂
Same could be said about only learning the insults and dirty bits of other language.
And yet, everywhere I’ve gone the first thing locals have taught me is how to swear. Unrelated: Croatian is an excellent language to swear in.
(I am not saying it is not a valid concern that learning only vulgar words in ASL is ableist or rude. I see where that comes from. I’m just saying people like to swear. Or maybe this says something about the field I work in. Hrm.)
The context is different, though. I’m not the right person to address this, but off the top of my head: being deaf can be really isolating because most people do not know any sign languages, and if people put in the effort to learn swear words but not the actual language… also there’s the issue of not being seen as real languages, and deaf children being punished for signing and stuff.
Teaching people all the cursing seems to be a thing wherever you go.
When I was in Germany (USAF’81) the German mechanics had a joke: Q.”What’s the longest word in American language? A. “Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit”
(pronounced like a Texan: Sheeeeeeet!)
Plus, I walked by some (non-english speaking) mechanics playing an arcade game, and heard one say “Ohshit” as one word. Goes both ways. ;o)
Just as well I’ve forgotten how to sign “Get Stuffed” then.
(I was running sound on a play and there was a slack period when I could watch the interpreter.)
Watching a signer at a folk music festival, I got the impression that a lot of rude terms were, uh, “visually onomatopoetic”.
but I also know “medal“! (and “don’t care“) ((and “butt“))
but I also know “medal“!
(post attempt take 2)
wow, links fail me lately
medal:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/03-up-all-night-to-get-vengeance/roller-derby/
I wonder how accident prone Becky was when she was younger.
From the looks of it, exactly as accident-prone as she wanted to be.
That’s my interpretation.
She was just so “clumsy”.
The beauty is that no matter how audacious she could get, I’m betting Toedad was exactly the type of misogynist to just believe that she naturally was that dumb and clumsy because that is probably his view of women.
And all kids.
“Daaaaadyyyy, I made an oooooooopsieeeeeeee,” *cue cheeky Becky-grin*
Your avatar made that -perfect-.
EXACTLY that grin!
Toedad: Becky, young girls are supposed to have long, pretty hair that they tie in pigtails. You don’t need a haircut!
Becky: …
*SPLORTCH*
She was just trying to make them stick out straight, like Pippi Longstocking.
Didn’t Pippi Longstocking’s have braids that hung upwards, not pigtails that stuck sideways? xD
DID SOMEONE ASK ABOUT PIPPI????
http://www.svtstatic.se/image-cms/barn/1435665462/pippi-langstrump/article3067680.svt/ALTERNATES/extralarge/pippi1-jpg
#SwedeOut
My baby’s name is Pippi 🙂 Well, nickname.
I was going to make an ironic sexist joke here, but figured it may be taken seriously.
Carol just darted out of the shadows like a ninja, disrobed Becky with a single slice of her katana, and then threw a smoke bomb on the ground. When the smoke cleared, Becky was wearing that dress.
She slid down the pole into the Church-Cave, and when she got to the bottom, she was in costume.
SSSSHHHHH! Don’t say that!
A) It’s seriously messed up, and
B) Rule 34 can hear you!
#antisexualizationofcarolbrown
I seriously considered pledging at the makeout level in the Book 5 kickstarter and specifying Becky/Carol.
Hahahaha! That is wicked! 😀 I approve! 😀
And the fact that Carol made Becky change clothes while she stood there in the locked room and watched isn’t?
Ah, anime tropes. I love it.
Joyce is coming along so nicely! Although it was right to ask, things like that always feel super forced.
I was expecting Carol’s reaction to be a bit….. else.
I was too. Maybe she had another discussion with Hank.
Yeah, about an intervention at the church to send Joyce off to a fundamentalist version of a Nunnery.
Heh, you probably mean a convent. A nunnery is a whorehouse. /shakespearenerd
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nunneries
But then I highly doubt an American Fundamentalist would want anything to do with convents, aka THE WHOREHOUSES OF BABYLONIAN PAPISTS
I don’t think a whore house would be the right place to send her.
This is what I’m expecting to happen, yes. Maybe not sending off, but definitely a churchly ambush. Why?
Because Joyce just said that church is ‘the safest place’ she could imagine–and Willis.
As was I.
… I don’t like this at all, not one bit. *bites nails*
the thing to remember is that she doesn’t think what she says is wrong hearing Joyce be afraid of her might have shaken things up a bit in her head.
Carol looks a bit… worried in that first frame.
Well, this is getting interesting. Joyce’s mom is reacting in a rather subdued way…
Joyce being shocked at her own outburst is mollifying at the very least. If she had followed up her curse with a bird or two that’d have really pushed the ‘my little girl is being destroyed by that place’ sentiment.
Here at least it looks like she tripped up, just like a normal human being.
I’ve anticipated this, if things get TOO serious (Example: say Joyce and her mom go red eye&panal on each other or worse) I got a plan.
I was actually saying that if the comic got TOO serious I’d post something to mello things out just a little.
That is because she has a plan. By the way, in case this right, I do not subscribe to Patheon, so I have not seen future DoAs.
Joyce’s mom talked to the pastor yesterday, or even perhaps earlier, and she has a “special” sermon ordered. This is one about the “evils” of homosexuality and homosexuals, atheists, Jews, heathens, evolution, and all manner of other things. The idea is to “guilt trip” Joyce, and hopefully “turn Becky away from the Dark Side”.
All this will do, especially since Joyce is bound to either find out or figure it out, is get Joyce even madder at her mother (dad has earned some slack recently), work to drive Joyce away from her mother, and drive Becky away from Christianity.
And Joe, there are more passive-aggressive tricks that Joyce’s mom has. Especially when she has an “in” with the local pastor.
I mean, as restrictive as Carol has been with Joyce’s upbringing, I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t flip out because her eighteen year old daughter said a swear word. Honestly, the context in which she said it (“shit, my mom is trying to turn my friend straight”) is probably much bigger of a deal to her.
never underestimate fundies’ delicate sensibilities. on our last vacation together, my dad told my sister to “watch her language” for saying “Frick.” [not fuck, /Frick/] My sister was 26 at the time
She’s saving all of her precious rage for later. A huge argument right now might make them late for church!
I thought she’d just seethe and store up her vitriol, but she looks genuinely concerned/worried in that panel. Interesting.
I also agree that Carol is keeping the pastor informed, and that he will deliver a Very Special Sermon for Joyce and Becky. -.-
Well we know who Joyce inherited the ability to strip and instantaneously use the discarded clothing to cover Sarah’s vision from.
I think Becky looks good in that dress, anyone else agree?
Not her color. She needs something to offset her red hair and pale skin.
Gingers should not wear red, they look like ketchup bottles.
I;m partial to green
Green ketchup? Ew. That’s as bad as purple.
MAYBE a deep burgundy.
maybe a yellow dress, without the bow
Yeah, that little belt would look nice with a yellow dress, and then maybe a little more of that rickrack pattern so it at least goes a bit further up the skirt or something?
Maybe the one Joyce rejected?
ehhh, it’s okay.
Orange and pink are not good together.
It’s… not particularly flattering. Or interesting. Like there’s that detail at the bottom and the belt’s a decent touch, but it definitely does seem to be made to be Modest and Appropriately Feminine while not Scandalous and Provocative. Adequate dress, but not actively cute (which you can totally do without being at all revealing, a nice pattern and a good color work wonders). I would totally wear Joyce’s outfit, or at least recommend it to someone. Becky’s, not so much. If you’re going with a maxi dress you need a little more than a tiny bow and belt and then one stripy at the bottom, at least do two.
It’s exactly the kind of dress I’d expect Carol to have in her closet.
I wonder if Becky will nuke that one, too.
She would, purely out of spite.
Spite and good fashion sense.
Let us HOPE.
The colour and style are all wrong.
But other than that it’s fine. :p
Irish redheads should never, EVER, wear pink.
Pink could work with her hair, but I would suggest adding some blue and/or black, and probably a change of shade pink-wise. It may not be her best color for the base of an outfit, but it could work.
I agree, but I also agree with Joyce in that it looks so wrong on her.
yeah. I can picture her in a dress, but not THAT dress
I trust the fanartist community to come up with some good alternatives.
Also, I would have LOVED to see Sal wear the SHIT out of that dress.
Something like the blue dress that model on the Amazon homepage is wearing would work lot better, but the goal is passive-agression, not style.
Carol’s probably going to burn it at the end of the day anyway.
After Becky has done whatever she will do to it… yeah, that is probably for the best.
“accidentally” of course
My issues with the dress aren’t so much precisely how it looks, as that it doesn’t suit who Becky is. It’s a really infantalizing style (the bows; a colour that’s perceived as delicate in our society; a frilly hem). In addition, it’s a dowdy style (ankle length, not much shaping), suggesting that it’s for someone who is actually an adult – i.e. a fairly insipid, demure little mouse.
I feel like the fact that I automatically assumed “superglue” was a euphemism for semen and not that it was an excuse for Becky to get a haircut probably means I’m on the bad parts of the internet too much.
Not sure, but doesn’t semen — even dried semen — shampoo out? Otherwise every chick in the world would have had the same problem with their pubes.
Yes. More to the point, superglue is probably more readily accessible to a girl living in the super-fundamentalist environment that they are. And you don’t have to get somebody else to, um, provide it.
I’m terrified to ask how you interpreted the scene where Mary squirted super glue all over Carla’s skates to ruin them… No, you know what, I’m good not knowing.
Yotome probably has already drawn it.
He definitely has inspiration now if he hasn’t.
I kinda want to see what sorta incident could’ve resulted in Becky getting superglue stuck in her hair.
I have a friend who has superglue – still – on the BACKS OF HER FRONT TEETH.
This is the same friend who cut herself on butter.
I am not even making these stories up.
(Well, it was the butter _wrapper_, but _still_.)
My brother once stuck a suction cup to his forehead, and had a red mark for over a week. He also once cracked his head open and needed stitches due to being hit by a rolled up sock.
I broke a toe in half kicking a nerf soccer ball once in the dorm common room once. I was sidelined for like four weeks.
(What really happened is that I got bumped by another player, and kicked the large wooden chair next to the ball. Made a REALLY loud CRACK sound, too.)
My older brother, at age 7ish, went to the hospital for an injury he suffered while reading.
(he was reading in a barn on his tummy, idly kicking his feet behind him, and got a 11″ splinter wedged into his foot.)
Goddamn. I question 11″ long piece of wood being a splinter.
I mean, okay, I have a 5′ long combat flute I made that I call “Splinter,” but that’s because of Stick from Daredevil (and “Splinter” from TMNT, yes same joke) and it’s a proper name.
Come to think of it, it must’ve been shorter, to fit into a seven-year-old’s foot. My brother may have exaggerated the story. That cad!
I once bent to get a book from a low shelf and tore a ligament in my knee.
I broke my arm playing Win, Lose, or Draw.
Dislocated my shoulder playing bocce. Wasn’t even my turn.
Tripped over my own feet while walking and broke my wrist.
Am I seeing a contest for second place at Darwin Awards?
*Honorable Mentions
Klutziness stories are always darkly fun, and I’ve spent many an hour swapping wacky injury stories with friends. A buddy of mine’s got a scar from a marshmallow. My best friend’s got one on her ear from a humidifier and one on her thumb from blocks. I’ve got one I picked up while dusting a shelf. And it’s actually in my legal file that if I GET a Darwin award, then someone had better tell the story to try and get some laughs at my funeral.
I feel your pain – tripped over a pot hole once and broke my ankle.
I broke my back sleeping. Turned over and my T12 snapped. The exact words the doctor said was “No, seriously, I see this happen in car accidents, how did this happen really.”
I have bone density issues, sometimes a bone will randomly break.
Silamy, you are like me… You didn’t trip, you just spontaneously tested gravity to make sure it works! I do it all the time! Somehow even in my wheelchair i figure out ways to test gravity. I’m just glad i have partial use of my bad leg and full use of my good leg otherwise i’d be not happy with how much my wheelchair falls over lol.
Silamy, I presume the marshmallow story involved smores or some other form of melting a marshmallow, but if it doesn’t, I want to hear this story.
Moon- I’m told that “spontaneous gravity checks” are a scouting thing here -we are participating in a time-honored tradition!
Dara- The marshmallow was on fire at the time, so that story’s not too interesting. I’m trying to work up to that level of accident-prone (jesting about injury. Not a self-harm thing), but so far the best I’ve managed is to accidentally cut myself on onions. Repeatedly. Not with the knife I’m using to cut said onions. With the onions themselves. It’s amazing how many sharp edges round things can have.
Week-late response is by accident -I just found the above in my paste button so I’ve been scrolling back through the last few days trying to find where it went. Hopefully, y’all see the answers.
…. Humans are weird…
i had to regrow a toe nail
I had to regrow my tail.
#Notalizardpersonreally
This guy I knew – a lacrosse player, JV I think? – was dating this girl I didn’t know because she was another school. And she also played lacrosse, and lacrosse is a non-gender-segregated contact sport, so when the teams played each other they collided but good and she broke her arm. And he was all OH MY GOD I’M SO DEAD but she was just kind of “eh [shrug]” and everything was fine, but he was pretty panicked until she was back out on the sidelines just going ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ or really more ^_(ツ)_/¯ since, you know, broken.
Lacrosse is not gender-segregated where you are?
I’ve only ever seen it split by gender o_O
Where I was at the time, anyway, yeah, wasn’t.
Were there rocks in that sock?
No, but it surprised him so much that he flailed backwards and hit his head on his bedframe.
My father broke his knee dancing in a wedding. It was a very weird wedding.
I have to ask if he was the groom…..
When it comes to superglue, lots of accidents are possible.
Like the one in american pie
Is that why the jester was on the sidelines in a cast? Or did the king and queen believe in corporal punishment for crown theft?
As a scale model builder, just having it open on a table you can hit with a knee will do the job.
That should read “As I have experienced in my many years as a scale model builder…”
Given the way Becky is talking about it, probably squeezing the bottle directly onto her hair when no one was looking.
Presumably she needed some kind of cover story for when her parents asked what happened.
Maybe she had a homeschooling project, like building a diorama of Noah’s Ark.
*Stuff happens*. My 18 year old cousin rolled of the living room couch onto the floor, and broke his arm.
This segment of our program is sponsored by Gorilla Glue.
http://cnn.it/25WmaHK
It sticks anywhere and everywhere.
Gorilla ain’t got nothin on E6000 or barge cement. You don’t fuck around with those.
^E6000
can confirm, I’ve used it to fix musical instruments, and it seems to work even better than the original factory adhesive.
(and yes, these were for parts that are not meant to move.)
Works better than getting chewing gum stuck in her hair.
So you’re saying Becky has the one-up on Haruhi Fujioka?
Your avatar expresses much truth.
Who or what is a Harry-hoohi Fujioka?
Main character from the Anime/Mange “Ouran Host Club”. A poor girl disguised as a guy on a scholarship at a posh high school. Typical wacky hijinks, and typical Japanese missing parent syndrome, with her mother dead, but with the twist that her father is a professional cross dresser. I liked it, but so far there has only been one season of the anime.
^
part of her background, which is revealed immediately after her actual sex is revealed, which is end of first chapter I’m fairly sure (first episode in the anime) so I’m not even gonna spoiler-warning this one –
basically her hair is super short because a neighborhood brat stuck gum in her hair, and being poor, she cut it all off herself, which is how it looked boyish among other things.
Well Haruhi did kiss at least one girl… or was it two…
…so depending on your metric on one-ups, maybe? I should probably read the manga to be sure.
shit counter: 2
Is that twenty bucks already?
…um, is Becky planning to somehow give that dress an Undercut?
Yeah pretty sure. It involves getting superglue all over then trying to take it to the cleaners. Since superglue doesn’t come off most fabric EASILY well. burn it with fire.
Actually, the superglue will take care of that. Superglue causes a highly exothermic reaction with most natural fabrics.
Oh yes. Especially when it’s also stuck to your skin. Never seen a blister grow so fast.
Well if she cut the skirt above the knees, got rid of that bow, and wore some leggings under it it would probably look pretty good in my opinion.
Yeah, I was thinking she should just grab some scissors and chop it off at an angle from mid-right-thigh to left knee (to mirror her hair) and wear jeans under. Still not her color, though.
Like one of those skirts that’s high in the front and low in the back?
I love those!
A lot of stuff tend to get stuck in hairs 😐
And hair can also get stuck in a lot of things as well, such as zippers…. which is why I never go commando.
Oh god, never in jeans. I knew a guy from high school who had a friend who cut his junk on a zipper when he and a girl were getting frisky and he was going commando, even without them unzipped.
I can confirm that this happens…and It is exceedingly painful -_-
It’s a dress it won’t kill you…then again to much pink energy is dangerous.
Remember when That’s Incredible! had a segment about Pink Power and what it does to people?
You’re dating yourself by mentioning it, unless there was a revival I missed. I’ll date myself and mention I don’t remember that segment.
Best mention Real People while I’m at it.
Well, that was anger handled in a good way. I think.
Am I missing something? Clearly this was a boundary overstep, but does Becky being gay really make the situation that much worse than if she was straight and just didn’t like dresses? The comic kind of implies that it does, in a way that would make more sense if Becky was trans (but she’s not). I’m not saying it’s not wacko behavior, but is it really lesbian-related this time?
no, the point is joyce is getting angry but then realizes she doesn’t know if becky is ok with this or not (more or less) becky’s sense of style after coming out show’s she probably isn’t which is part of where Joyce’s initial reaction comes from.
Carol is trying to control Becky, imposing typical standards of femininity. She is obviously doing this because Becky’s gay.
Might also be a case of “my house, my rules”, although that’s not a whole hell of a lot better.
It’s absolutely a case of “my house, my rules.” She’s using that to do this to Becky because Becky is gay.
The color of the dress could be intentional, as well, or it might just be what Carol has available.
the color of the dress is more than likely intentional on carol’s part. carol more or less holds the same viewpoints as toedad about religion, so it wouldnt be a far stretch to assume that she holds the viewpoints on gender norms toedad does.
But is it intentional because “pink=feminine and must reinforce proper womanhood”, or is it passive aggressive “what color would look worst on the ginger?”
Your second point would work better if there was evidence of Carol’s humour.
We know that Carol is hostile to Becky because Becky is a lesbian.
Hosts usually treat their guests better than Carol is treating Becky.
Not always. Until recently, had some faux-fundie friends (I say “faux” they preached rather more than they practiced and their morality was conveniently flexible) who told me that, since I was close enough to be more “family” than just “friend,” they could more or less dispense with any form of courtesy if I was in their house. The closeness has … evaporated over the last couple of years.
Wait, so… they said that since you’re close enough to be family rather than a friend, they don’t have to be nice to you? I mean, I do like my friends better than my family at the moment, but that still doesn’t make any sense. The only reason for this I could fathom is they just got tired of acting nicely.
I’ve gotten similar things – at its best, it’s more like “We don’t have to be polite or put on our best manners.” Nice, by the way, is very different than polite.
Ew.
*LOVE* that particular double-standard of “we must try to make you like us since you are not family and not expected to love us anyway” vs. “you’re family, you have to love us anyway, no matter how shitty we treat you”.
It seems to me from Joyce’s comment that Becky has never worn a dress very often. So this is exactly like she just didn’t like dresses. Because that is what it is.
Much like her hair cut was ‘too much Becky’ when Joyce first saw it. Becky has always been tomboyish.
Fundie christians (and other homophobes) often look at gayness as being a result of insufficient masculinty\femminity, so in Carol’s mind, putting Becky in a dress is a passive aggresive jab at her for the gender roles she swayed away from, if not an attempt to “fix” her viamaking her more femmine
It’s sort of a complicated thing because for a lot of gay people gender presentation is tied to sexuality. That’s why one of the first things Becky did when she had the chance was cut her hair (and why she probably risked parental punishment in the first place to “accidentally” have an excuse to cut it short) in a way that is emphatically Not Traditional Heteronormative Beauty Standards. (It’s also where you get butch lesbians, like say Haruka Tenoh.) Can’t weigh in as much on the gay male side of things but I’m pretty damn sure it’s a thing for them as well that coming out and saying “I am not part of this straight culture” includes also embracing things that straight culture also says they can’t because of their gender.
Like it’s not necessarily a gay thing the way Carol’s other comments are, but it definitely CAN be a thing related to it and also, as mentioned, it’s very much Carol trying to enforce femininity on Becky because she sees her as “lacking” due to being gay.
Haruka is really only butch compared to Michiru and the fact that the 90s anime always put her in men’s clothes. The original manga (and Crystal) can make her equally pretty as Michiru and put her in a number of feminine outfits, includeing a female school uniform
I’m aware, but 90s Haruka is still a good example of butchness. (And even her feminine outfits have much more of an edge to them than Michiru or most of the other cast.)
It’s because in their worldview one of the (many) crimes of The Not Heterosexual is a failure to conform to God’s Gender Roles, which are of course the ones they inherited from their parents, because obviously, duh. This is why the gay conversion torture camps all include aggressive sessions in gender-role compliance, amongst other things. That’s kind of the part which is easiest to make fun of, except where the direct intent is brainwashing you into compliance.
I don’t know if Joyce knows that, but that’s what you’re seeing here, which is why it’s creepier when applied to a lesbian woman than to a heterosexual woman.
You summed it up much better than I did thanks, yes.
We were typing at the same time, I think. ^_^
Most likely! ^_^
Yes. Carol put a dress on her to thwart her gay cooties in Gods House.
I don’t think this is so much a “gay” thing as it is a “people making Becky behave a certain way” thing.
What Dara, Regali, and Cephalo said. To the sect Joyce and Carol belong to, being gay is just a matter of an individual getting “confused” about “proper” gender roles, so Carol believes that by heavily enforcing a type of extreme femininity onto her she can “cure” her gayness.
And Joyce, being raised in that culture and knowing the way her and her sister were raised and how they were “steered” away from being sucked in by that “lifestyle” with gender stereotyped reinforcement, she knows exactly what Carol is trying to pull here.
So when Joyce says that line in Panel 2, she recognizes this as not only something very out of place on the very tomboy, soft butch Becky, but also an attempt by her mother to try and feminine out the gay in a deeply inappropriate and offensive way.
It’s *amazing* what a few weeks at college can do for your horizons, huh?
How do I write in italics here?
Using html tags <em> (to start) and <em> (to end).
and if < and > don’t parse, that’s less-than and greater-than. normal html brackets.
AGH i was so concnered that > wouldn’t parse that I screwed up the close tag. </em>.
Huh, I thought it was the ‘I’ tag. And now I wonder…
The ‘EM’ tag
The “I’ tag
Well that’s a new word pairing for me.
I thought that Joyce was the only daughter in the Brown family?
Jocelyne (currently known to her family as “Joshua”) is trans. The Browns have had a kind of suspicion about it for years, as indicated by Hank’s comments at the beginning of that last story that caused Joyce to freak out and the stuff about their youth pastor making sure they “promote proper gender roles” for their children, but they don’t actually know yet and as such have been misgendering her. But we the commentors know and as such the tags and comments all refer to her appropriately.
Is the question “from whom did she got this dress from”?
Might be Joyce’s,
might be Carol’s,
might be Carol’s grandmum’s …
And yes, as far as Carol knows, Joyce is the only daughter.
(We know that Joyce has two sisters now).
Who’s the second?
Who is the second? Joss is the first sister…
“Joyce has two sisters now”. Last I knew she has two brothers and one sister who was misgendered at birth. Is Becky being counted as an honorary one?
I did not realize I was so interested in Becky’s timeline before.
Like Toedad associated long hair with the all important woman hood so much that Becky had to fake a glue accident to get her old hair cut? How long has she been rebelling appearencewise and how long has she been aware of it and/or the reason
When Becky’s mother died, she had pretty short hair. So, does this imply that her mother’s only been dead since last Summer?
She seems to have always had short hair, judging by the blue-lines-Beckies of Becky’s house’s past.
My impression was that her hair was more similar in length to Joyce’s in most of those. Whereas in the comic before it was cut, it was just about chin-length.
I’m pretty sure Hank said something like “When Bonnie passed last year, bless her soul.” or something to that effect. So yes, most likely she died about a year, year and three months-ish ago in-strip.
And there’s short-like-shoulder-length and short-like-SHORT. Shoulder-length’s shortish, but it still doesn’t carry the same Distinctly Unfeminine connotations a bob cut has.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/04-walking-with-dina/pokeman/
Yup, her dad said she passed last year and the blue flashbacks at the house suggested that she cut her hair sometime after her mom attempted suicide but before the Toedad mourning in his office. So, most likely shortly after her mom passed in order to create some emotional separation and stop being reminded of her in the mirror every morning.
And I think at this point we can assume that Becky has been trying to sneak in small rebellions wherever she could what with the 40 sneak-outs, clandestine Seinfeld, and “accidental” glue spills.
Might be that her dad ramped up his religious fervor after her mom died and she pulled the superglue trick to get it back to the length she was used to after her started refusing to let her cut it ’cause blah blah crowning glory.
Crowning glory?
If fundamentalist Christianity works like fundamentalist Judaism, a woman’s beauty and femininity are directly tied to her hair -if her hair’s not long and healthy and pretty and properly cared for, then there is Something Wrong, and if it’s because of health, then she’s to be pitied, and if it’s not, then the Something Wrong is with her, and she is not only Not Beautiful, but also Not A Proper Woman -or less of a woman, or something like that.
Our ultra-ultra-religious types also have a special thing in there with married women shaving their heads, because a woman’s womanly glory is between her and her husband (hence the covered hair), and the chance that someone else might see ANYTHING is too much of a disgrace to risk, but that’s mostly faded out.
Becky always fighting the good fight
So Carol looks simply concerned in that last panel. Is it foolish of me to hole she’ll actually ask Joyce what’s wrong, give her a chance to speak for herself?
The hole should be hope.
… but it’s more likely the hope will be a hole. A deep dark yawning hole of the despair-wolves.
It is very foolish. Remember who writes this comic.
Your anguish sustains him.
*sage nod of agreement*
The Willis giveth, and the Willis taketh away.
He needs that sustenance now more than ever. He has to help take of two Mini-Willises.
Particularly because Joyce is autobiographical, and, according to other commenters, Willis is still not on speaking terms with his mother, while having come to an agreement with his father.
Sure, not everything about Joyce probably mirrors things in Willis’s own life. (I hope that he didn’t have that run in with almost being raped, for example.) But this part does seem to follow.
So I strongly suspect that Carol will do something to cut Joyce off from her entirely.
No one should.
Some people must.
truth
Want and need are two different things. People should get along, not try to hurt others. Doesn’t mean that they won’t though. S’wrong.
I love that Joyce asks Becky if it’s ok to make a scene. I love that SO MUCH.
Me too!
Yes!
Agreed. It is so important, especially since Becky is far more worried for Joyce’s sake than for her own.
Here’s to hope Joyce’s mom didn’t secretly meet with the pastor to have them tailored sermons thrown in the face.
Tho most already know that Becky is back thanks to her yelling back at her home, so there may be one about how “homosexuality is bad” either way. Maybe something about long hairs.
…okay, that sentence has some english grammar issues.
I have a nasty feeling that the “sins of homosexuality” sermon will be served with a side of “honor thy father and thy mother”. I want to be wrong, though!
How about “The Sin of Sodomy’. Had a guest sermon for that one. The point was about being welcoming to strangers, but it was just a couple of weeks after a active member of the church, who was gay, had passed away. His husband wasn’t…pleased.
Carol tells the pastor to make sure to include everything Jesus said about homosexuality.
When they get to the church, the pastor is still flipping through the book and says “I’m still looking”.
Joyce’s reaction here indicates that Becky essentially never wears dresses, which makes me curious mostly as to her church wear from before the events of the comic. Church would have been the situation Becky would have been most likely to have been pressured into wearing a dress, but if that was a regular occurrence, I don’t think Joyce’s reaction would have been quite this shocked, even if she knew Becky disliked it.
If that’s the case then maybe the rest of the church isn’t as reactionary as one would assume by looking at Carol and ToeDad.
Remember, Hank didn’t agree with toedad. Carol is as close as other Christian parents get to him; and she didn’t lose her shit when Joyce said shit. The church might be very lax, but also doesn’t discuss modern issues, I would guess.
Joyce’s outfit here makes it clear that skirts with leggings are welcome by their church at least. And that seems like something that Ross would have been okay with (especially with some persuasion from Becky’s mom).
Way back the first time we ever saw Joyce go to church she wore pants to it, so I assume her home church is cool with ladies wearing slacks as their Sunday best.
Patreon bonus strip will be the hair story, i can feel it
Ewww gross, it’ll have Toedad in it.
Unless it’s just be Becky and Bonnie, in which case, OH HELLS YES
Plot twist: it was a genuine accident.
I honestly thought that was a nightgown. A strange Toedad bought nightgown, but a nightgown. I’m going to keep pretending that.
Me too!
I hope Joyce’s mom heard Joyce’s first line here. I think it’d do wonders to prove she’s still a good person, just going through very stressful times.
This was my reaction to church dresses, too.
Also, explains why Becky’s hair was so short in the first few strips–Toedad would never have allowed it otherwise.
Becky is a gift and I’m glad she’s taken so much of a presence in the comic. But wow, that dress does NOT suit her complexion.
Also the Joyce expression in this strip are great.
+20 awesome points to Joyce for having all the right responses today.
So that’s how Becky initially scored the short hair. Toe Dad struck me as the sort who’d insist on women having long hair and men having short hair so I was vaguely wondering about that.
Don’t know if anybody else pointed this out, but there is cursing (this would be ‘taking the name of the Lord in vain’) and then there are vulgarities (of which ‘shit’ is but one). And believe it or not, you can tell them to “fuck this shit” and they’re OK with that, but if you say “Goddamn it all to hell”, they’ll go ballistic on you.
Notice how people use the word “profanity” when they mean “vulgarity”?
Ah Joyce, that was great- it’s about you my friend Becky and your feelings take priority over mine here and I’ll right for you when you want me too and etc
That would probably be a Bad Time if Becky did get superglue on her dress. A lot of superglues have a weird chemical reaction with cotton? I got some on my pants once (not as a rebellion of pants) and oh my GOD it burned so bad I couldn’t get those things off fast enough.
anyone else reminded of the cinderella dress?
Is Joyce wearing a big leather glove or something in the first panel? Or might that be a coloring mistake? (Sorry for noticing…)
oh no its her arm brace from punching toe dad
Xactly!
Okay. Here’s how to wear that dress.
1) Roll up the sleeves and stick something in them. Packs of cigarettes are traditional, but if you care about anything between your lips and your diaphragm try something else. An iPod, maybe.
2) Get some hyper-rainbowic tats all up and down your arms.
3) Add a vest-jacket in a dark color that doesn’t outright clash with the dress, but doesn’t match. Something with sequins and/or rhinestones and a high collar. Cover it with various patches and badges of various unwholesome causes, entertainment groups, or substances.
4) Swap out the shoes for combat boots.
5) Dye your hair something that doesn’t clash with that dress. I recommend stripes of green and purple. Both neon.
Rad!
That smile in the last panel… THAT SMILE!!!! Carol uses tacky dress. Not very super effective. Becky’s turn.
Ruining things to force small rebellions, the memories give her strength… but seriously, yeah, they did. I imagine a lifetime of small rebellions against Toedad was instrumental in giving her the confidence and emotional strength to run away from him when he tried to drag her away to get “fixed”.
You can batter and bruise and make Becky feel like shit, but you can never break her.
The more we see Becky in action, the more do we realize that she really meant it back in the second panel here
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/fought/
She really would flee the man with a gun. Again and again and how many times it took. Her father couldn’t break her with a gun. Her mother’s ghost couldn’t break her. Carol dang as heck sure can’t break her with an effin’ DRESS.
Becky is awesome.
Oh, yeah, I took her 100% literally at her word. I have no doubts that what she said was her plan was very much her intended plan and she would have gone through hell and highwater to carry it out.
She’s been through hell, but refuses to compromise who she is for anyone and she’ll take a shitty situation in the now to keep it that way. I find a lot to identify with that.
Carol used WARDROBE!!
Becky’s Attack fell! Becky’s Special Attack fell!
What will Joyce do?
>Rage Snarl
Helping Hand Close Combat
Man, Joyce missed years and years worth of prep on laying low and keeping the peace in front of conservative parents. She is making some BIG rookie mistakes. First tip, that idealistic disposition and strong sense of justice compelling you to debate with your family? Smother that shit for good.
I’m a red head, pale with freckles. As a kid I was a tomboy like Becky. I never liked dressing up, period. Jeans and a t-shirt or turtle neck and I was, and am, happy. I know how to wear formal wear or just dress’s, I’m just not comfortable in them.
I’m straight. That said: I do not think that this is a gender thing.
I think Carol is just rude to have handled the situation the way she did.
Imo that dress is so absolutely wrong on Becky as to just not list the ways. Color, style, length. But again, it’s not the dress’s style or color imo.
It’s all about control.
I think a better way to handle this would have been to suggest Joyce find something more appropriate for church from her wardrobe. But Carol is not interested in being polite to Becky.
Congrats! to Joyce for holding her temper and checking with Becky first for her opinion.
It’s not really a gender thing, but Carol wants to make it a gender thing.
It’s definitely a gender thing. It’s a “You must conform to gender roles and must do so conspicuously” thing. Thus, full dress and thus pink. In the screwed up fundie world (and even, though less so, in mainstream culture), being gay is tied to not being feminine (or masculine for boys) enough.
See also Toedad on Becky’s hair.
This is Chekhov’s dress. It is important to the narrative or else Willis wouldn’t have drawn it, since it is extra work.
Maybe, maybe not. Willis has put a lot of time and effort into drawing accurately detailed backgrounds just to cover them up with characters and dialog balloons.
Just a bit worried about Mr. W’s hovertext. “…chipping away at Becky’s timeline???” WtH is that?
It just might be him pointing out how often Willis offers small glimpses into Becky’s life without really offering full-on flashbacks.
Yup. There was some discussion about Becky’s hairstyle during the flashbacks during the breakin. It seemed like she had cut her hair short at one point before leaving for college, something that seemed strange given ToeDad’s… ToeDadness.
Now we know how that happened.
He meant he’s been slowly giving us more information about what’s happened in her life, and when. We knew from nearly her first appearance that she was a freshman, and was taken out of college within weeks of her arrival. We now know that her mother died within roughly the last year, for example. Recently, we found out that her mother made a suicide attempt at some point before her death. Today, we found out that she managed to get a haircut “last summer” by faking an accident. Whether that’s the summer that was a few months ago, or the one that was slightly over a year ago, I’m not certain.
Comic Reaction:
Panel 1: Oh man, Joyce’s face of panic in that first panel. She is so terrified of her mom and that passive threat to yank her out of school. I really hope that the distance away and some coaching with Dorothy helps let her realize that she has far more power than she assumes and that Carol’s power while capable of making her life very unpleasant and hard, is nonetheless limited in how much she can actually do to destroy her life.
Also, I love Becky just noting the cursing attempts.
The face from the mom is super interesting though and I’m not sure how to read it. Embarrassment and hurt at being called out for being “weird”, worry that she’s losing her daughter to “lesbionic lusts and temptations”, sadness that her beautiful baby girl has “degraded herself” to cursing and thus revealing the extreme amount she has “fallen from grace”…
There’s so much in that little expression and there’s a lot of potential ways to read it. Hopefully we’ll get more context… or rather I hope we don’t, because that’ll probably mean we’ll see Joyce overhearing scary triggering stuff again.
Panel 2: Joyce knows what’s up. It’s been mentioned above, but Joyce has already mentioned that her church’s beliefs that gayness is caused by a lack of “proper” enforcement of gender identity and knows that the belief about gay people she was raised with sees them at best as confused sinners just lost and confused about their gender role.
So she also knows that this is some grade-A corrective shit that Carol just tried to pull here. Forcing her into that dress is the discount method of trying to “pray away the gay” and Joyce is in no doubts about its intention or meaning.
And poor Becky, she knows she is a woman and she is happy about that, but she is not particularly interested in being high femme. She’s a tomboy, a soft butch, and is not particularly at home in a “little pink bowtie” frumpy church dress.
And her dialogue here reveals just how forced it was upon her by that angry Carol, probably mixed in with a fair amount of haranguing her about “ruining families” and “leading her daughter astray”.
Panel 3: So, it’s no wonder that Joyce is ready to fight. Hell, she’s been ready to fight with her parents since the kidnapping and the near shooting. And at some point, when she is safer and not in their terrifying home court, she should have it out (ideally over the phone at an emotional and physical distance).
Panel 4: But I’m so proud of her checking in with Becky before trying to “fight for her honor” as it were. Becky’s been trying hard not to escalate things too much with Joyce’s folks and it’s nice to see Joyce recognize that its better to ask before risking another person’s safety and well-being by trying to fight without checking in.
It’s also a sign that maybe she won’t take away the full Jocelyne of going completely turtle when at home, but rather strive for a balance of careful and intentional engagement, not being drawn into reacting to every passing snipe.
Panel 5: “Accidentally”. Bob damn do I love Becky and her unbreakable anti-authoritarian streak. You can “beat” her in the moment, but she is a damn wizard at semi-passive resistance and not letting her core self ever be broken no matter what.
I really want to see her build a life where she never ever needs those skills again.
With regards to Joyce’s reaction to her mother’s enforcement of feminine gender norms, I’m very curious as to how she’ll react when she realizes that she was going to try the exact same thing on Ethan. Don’t get me wrong, Joyce has made a lot of progress and I don’t want to take that away from her. She should keep moving forward and be proud that she’s learning. I don’t want to be the ‘Roz’ and start insulting her for being late to the party, I just worry that she might have that reaction towards herself and she really doesn’t need that kind of self-doubt right now.
Also, I concur with that last sentence about wanting Becky to build a life where she doesn’t need that resistance all the time. That said, I’d love to see her find other uses for it once she has that life, because letting skills like that go to waste would be a tragedy.
She’s had part of that realization with Ethan already:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/goodbyemyfriend/
So I think she’s getting it, but here, seeing it in action, she might be seeing the full shape of how awful what she tried to do was.
Really, really like Joyce checking with Becky. That’s new and a very important step.
There’s many reasons to dislike Carol but right now what grinds my gears is her flat rejection of Becky.
I wouldn’t expect her to react as well as Joyce did, but more like Joyce reacted to Ethan?
“Gayness is wrong but I’ve know you’re a good person so I will try to cure your gayness through love and understanding as approved by Jesus”
I mean OF COURSE that particular attitude is still fucked up, but a bit less? Maybe I’m just rambling here.
Yeah, I agree. It would cost Carol NOTHING to be civil to Becky. She would have to compromise none of her values or principles, would not have to admit to being wrong in any way, just ease off and let the homeless, parentless girl alone for a little while.
Be nice to a ‘gay’?
I was just trying to think of a parallel and almost invoke Godwin’s Law. They’re not nearly enough comments for that sort of thing.
The sad part is that I think you are completely right. She thinks of Becky not as “Becky” or “Bonnie’s kid” or “Joyce’s best friend” or “The girl who practically grew up under my roof” or “the poor thing.”
She thinks of her as “a gay”
Worse, “the gay who is trying to drag my daughter down to Hell”.
I wonder how much Carol suspects about Becky’s true feelings towards Joyce in light of recent events.
Ouch. Yeah, that’s a level of ugliness we have yet to tap.
You don’t understand Bagge. Becky is a “sinner” and showing kindness to “sinners” and accepting them without constantly condemning their “lifestyle” and trying to convert them back to the way of the Lord is to invite Satan into your very home to corrupt it to the core and steal your children away, just like what happened to Toedad.
Any good Christian of the sort of morality of Carol knows that one must be firm and strong against the deceptions of Satan and you must at all times either be saving the souls of those falling into temptation (cause the Rapture is happening any day now and woe be to the mother who loses her children forever to the fires of Hell just because she let herself be weak to the entrance of Satan’s emissary. And woe be her if she was denied the kingdom of Heaven for not staying resolute against the wages of sin and trying to save the fallen creature infecting her home through this passive-aggressive display.
Are you asking her to sacrifice her entire family to sin simply out of some petty empathy for a woman who is homeless and orphaned, when it is her own sinful demonic queer actions that lead to that reality in the first place. That’d be like feeling sorry for the boy who murdered his parents because he’s now an orphan.
/Carol perspective
Bob damn do I wish I did not intimately know this type of thinking and the immoral rot it encourages.
It’s Mary’s “if evil weren’t nice no one would bother with it” writ large and its the unbending style of construction that leads to real world violence like Orlando or comic world violence like Toedad.
If you see someone about to fall off a cliff, you stop them, as those Xtians tend to say.
I’ve had to stop them from trying to covert people at the government building I work at.
Yup, it’s a mindset where moralistic conversion is always the best action to be doing. Because the end of the world is nigh and every soul not saved will be burning in Hell for all eternity facing untold suffering simply because “good” Christians didn’t fight hard enough to save them.
And since every alternative belief is naive and wrong and been lied to by Satan’s tricksy influences, they feel no regard for other people’s belief systems and religions. “Deeply held beliefs” for other people is Satan leading them to a lifestyle of sin and denying the “obvious truth” of Jesus’s eternal glory and the one path that can spare them from God’s loving awesome not at all abusive wrath.
So, if someone says they are happy and fulfilled being jewish or muslim or an atheist or see nothing wrong with a lifestyle that isn’t filled with the minutae of sex-phobic nonsense that theirs is, then that person is a fool preparing to jump off a cliff face because they think there is land and it is up to you to wake them up from those delusions in order to save their soul.
And once you get kids wound up in that philosophy, you get things like poor Joyce freaking the fuck out because she doesn’t want Dorothy and Becky to go to Hell and figuring out the loophole that means they won’t and ripping herself up about every errant naughty thought.
*sad*
remember, kids, even the most bigoted monsters are still human
That’s what makes them so terrifying. They are humans and still are like that.
Y’see, parents, especially mothers, have a super-power: Once you’ve developed the skill of pouring a wriggling toddles into their clothes, that skill (and attitude) never really goes away. Frankly, Becky never stood a chance against a four-times champion!
Now, I wonder just how long Becky has been arranging ‘accidents’ to get her aesthetic own way?
Daaaaaaamn those are some Michelle Obama level guns on Carol.
…they’re literally normal sized arms, what?
Once again, the benefits of motherhood; I’m sure she’s used to carrying around ‘outsize’ loads single-handed whilst holding a struggling toddler under the other arm!
Maybe if she works at a daycare. It’s been about sixteen years since she’s had to deal with a toddler of her own, and it doesn’t sound like there are any grandkids yet.
glad to see the whole overzealous ally thing addressed in the narrative, it was making me really uncomfortable
If it’s cool for me to ask, how did you like the resolution to the Mary/Carla thing? That Carla told Ruth to stop using her to cudgel herself with guilt, and then went and dealt with Mary in basically the most Carla way possible?
Personally, it addressed every problem I had and I really liked it, so I was wondering how you felt about it. It’s totally okay if you don’t want to answer that, though.
I can see how the Mary/Carla arc would end satisfactorily for most people and even be very cathartic for people who wish they were as strong as Carla in handling it and being that bold.
For a lot of us, though (and my group of buds who are entirely LGBTIA+ ), who have been long time readers of DoA and Shortpacked… I dunno, it feels a little insulting. The whole ‘just fight back!’ narrative when written by a cishet has these hints of privilege that come from a place of simply being unable to understand the position we’re in. Compared to how most of our characters get turned into either punchlines or soapboxes? It was done really well considering Willis hasn’t gone through it. It’s very clear he listens to people of different walks.
I’m a storyteller myself so I know I can be extremely picky and easily disappointed. Overall (I’ve mentioned this a few times before) I’d rather see LGBTIA+ folks tell their own coming of age stories, rather than cishets trying to tell them for us.
Example, Carla’s coming of age arc being about being a lady in STEM rather than LOL IM A TRANS GIRL. That’s not a perfect example but… I’d feel more comfortable reading that trying to trudge through a cis person trying to relate a trans story (being a trans dude, myself). I hope that makes sense.
Yeah, I can definitely see that, and I’m sorry that it didn’t work as well for you as it did for me. I did hugely dislike it all at first since I was so convinced we were getting the typical Ally narrative about Ruth proving she’s a hero, but Carla’s cold, swift, and absolutely ridiculous revenge was basically everything I could have asked for.
I especially thought your point about the “just fight back” narrative was extremely informative and usually not applicable to real life situations like this, but I also really really really really loved that Carla made it clear that she wasn’t going to be anybody’s victim. Ruth stands around feeling sad that she let Carla down and Mary feels smug that she used Carla to get back at Ruth, and Carla tells them both off. Fuck that shit. She’s Carla, she’s the best, she’s in control, she’s the lead, and everyone’s gonna know it. Quit being such a depressed ninny, Ruth, cuz she’s got this. What’s that Mary, you think you won? Well here’s a motherfucking pie to the face while she spells out her name in lights!
As for your last part, I absolutely understand and hope that nobody ever tries to take that from you, but I also feel it’s important that artists create what they feel is right, and that it is likewise important that we also say “this is a thing i don’t like and have xyz problems with it.” I know Willis ain’t bi, but he still writes some damn good bi characters, and even if there’s occasional instances where I think it’s getting uncomfortable, I still feel it’s important that he chose to be inclusive. Not just for himself as a content creator, but also for marginalized groups who don’t get to see themselves in fiction. Everyone in the webcomics circle knows what DoA is, and the massive success Willis has with this series, that he has people giving him five grand a month so they can read the next strip a day early, I think is extremely positive, because it shows all writers that it’s worth being inclusive. That it’s time to let go of all the bullshit reasons we chain ourselves to in fear of the dreaded political correctness.
Like, if Willis chose not to include any queer or minority characters, and made all his leads straight cis white dudes with Joyce as the token female, then what do we gain? We’d just be losing out on a genuinely important work of fiction that shows you can be hugely popular and also representative. We’d lose a series where a neurodivergent woman tells her peers to stop treating her like a child and pursues a relationship she gets happiness and fulfillment from. We’d lose a series that speaks at length about how committing a crime as a child shouldn’t tarnish you for life, that crimes are paid for and then life just goes on, and the love of a parent shouldn’t be conditional to that. We’d lose a series where a bi dude gets fed up with feeling guilty over fancying a man, and boldly tells him that he’s attracted to him; not because he wants to date him, but because he won’t allow himself to be ashamed of it anymore. We’d lose a series that shows an abuse victim with a mental health disorder coping extremely poorly with her trauma, and instead of going the typical route of treating her as a wild animal the way basically all other fiction does, the point to her character is that she deserves support, and that the people around her love her because she’s worth being loved. Heck, we’d lose a place that prompted these discussions, and created an avenue for people to come forth with their experiences. A huge part of my acceptance of my sexuality was just talking about it here, because I knew this was a space that accepted bisexuality, and I couldn’t talk about in real life.
Ah, see, when I say I don’t want cishets telling our coming of age stories… I don’t mean delete diversity. Absolutely have a bunch of gay, lesbian, bi characters and people of all ethnicities and absolutely no white cishet dudes in your stories- no matter what demographics you belong to.
I feel as if the series that does this best imo is Steven Universe, honestly. Where these diverse characters just unapologetically exist without their personal story being all about their Oppression. We get diverse fiction without people trying to figure out how to tell our coming of age stories.
I have this same problem with Krem in DA:I. I was so excited to see a trans dude in the story. But… not only was he voiced by a cis lady, his entire dialogue tree was there to Educate The Bigots on trans issues. Then Dorian’s story is just about how “weh my dad doesn’t love me because Im gay”. Everyone got these deep intricate character arcs about their goals and dreams and aspirations and skeletons in the closet- and Dorian got “Im gay” as his personal quest.
I feel as if gay people should gay stories about being gay. Include us in your stories if you dont belong to those demographics. But you dont need to write about us coming to terms with being gay or the struggles that come with it. We know. We live it every day. It’s what I meant about Carla being STEM rather than her arc being “lol Im trans”. Absolutely still have her be trans! I could just seriously go without having Mary have a part in this at all except for being a jerk specifically to Joyce about faltering in her faith or something like that.
I know many people in the LGBTIA+ circle that feel differently than I do about this issue, it’s just my two cents. Even if it still personally makes me uncomfortable, I really am truly glad other people can get so much out of this comic and the story it tells that includes people that look like them.
Sooooooooo…
…the girl that drove her poor father nuts when she turned her back on him and the Lord by choosing to be gay is coming to the community church where they all know and like him and disapprove of her?
This is not going to end well.
In this case, in her own fumble fisted way, it looks like Joyce’s mum is trying to protect Becky.
I feel bad for Becky, she expects to be treated the same as everyone else, with no difference in attitude between when she was thought of as straight and when she came out. What a ridiculous concept.
I may take a break for a couple of weeks. This strip is tying into some depressing stuff, for me.
I’m not sure if Becky does expect to be treated fairly. Joyce expects that but she’s naive and optimistic by nature. Becky, I feel, is doing this for the sake of her own faith and spirituality and I suspect, if anything, she will be protective of Joyce if others criticise her for associating with her.
Maybe I should have emphasised that I mean “expects” as in “considers it what SHOULD happen” rather than, “consider it what will happen.”
I have not seen any signs of spirtiuality or faith from Becky. I admit to being curious as to her attitude there. I may have missed something.
She goes to church in Bloomington and has expressed her relief that God listens to ‘lesbian prayers’. So, yeah, she’s a religious girl.
And she thinks that being an atheist is nuts.
Yeah, Becky knows damn well she’s not going to be treated the same. She SHOULD be, of course, but she knows better.
She’s here for Joyce. The rest she can survive. Because she’s Becky and none of this can break her. And there’s a dinosaur girl waiting for her back home.
Becky’s still faithful and has gone to church with Joyce and Sierra back at IU. She’s just more willing to acknowledge things that her upbringing hid from her.
> In this case, in her own fumble fisted way, it looks like Joyce’s mum is trying to protect Becky.
I can see that, but I don’t see the intent in Carol’s actions.
I think it’s more to do with Carol’s view of herself in the community, not wanting to be seen with someone who’s not only rumored to be a godless lesbian but, gasp, dresses like one so is one.
The mother that wears jeans and a t shirt or sweater all the time?
I doubt Carol will suffer by association with Becky, any more than Toedad has.
No, as I said, something is going to go down at the church, but Carol is just giving the girl with no luggage a dress to wear to Church.
We’ve not yet seen Carol dress for church.
Actually Carol thinks that Ross has suffered by, er, association with his daughter. Carol plainly thinks that Becky is the cause of Toedad going to jail; pretty certain that the rest of Carol’s community will think so too. I’ve seen this sort of behavior in small towns.
I’m going on Carol’s behavior towards Becky and Becky’s astonished reaction to the dress.
I’m not sure what you’re going on other than a Panglossian view of human nature which isn’t warranted by any reading of the text.
It seems to me that Carol is forcing her idea of gender stereotype on Becky in order to stifle any concern that Carol is being tainted by that “evil girl.”
Oh, I guarantee the dress has literally zero to do with protecting her, but on the point of Becky and this church… yeah, this is literally the worst place for her to go. The sermon is guaranteed to at least reference her offhandedly, likely in a supremely negative way, either preaching against her sexuality, praising Toedad’s actions, or condemning her specific actions.
This is also the church that Toedad had no doubt would support his efforts to “cure” her and which many of the attendees will see as someone to minister to or harangue to prove their faith. It is a church that quite literally hates her and sees her as subhuman garbage. This will be brutal for her and I expect that she’ll be trying to stick to Joyce like glue for as much of the services as she can.
But it’s something she will try to push through by burying all her emotions and riding it out best she can because she is here to support Joyce and Joyce is not going to be ready for how devastating and hurtful today’s sermons are going to be.
This is an incredibly brave action by Becky, the bravest as there’s no way for her to know if her old pastor was informed or in on Toedad’s plans for “correction”. And I would not be surprised if this sermon is the thing that gets through her armor a bit and lets her show that vulnerability she did with Dina up in Joyce’s room or that she did with Joyce on the dorm hall steps.
You remind me of Mary. Obssessively ascribing malicious intent to everything and everyone will make you feel better for a while, but will end with you covered in pie.
I do not think you are a good person, please refrain from talking to me.
There’s a good chance they aren’t wrong though. Though I doun’t think we’d see outright approval of Toedad’s actions. Nobody likes hearing about guns being brought to school. Rather, I could see a very backhanded victum condemnation, say, lamenting “the horrific sins in the world around us, even in one’s own family, that can drive one away from Christ and to wrath” That kind of narrative.
Interesting.
Cerberus did not ascribe malicious intent to Becky’s actions, yet you blasted across that with your big paint brush as if Becky did not exist.
I think you don’t like gays, pure and simple. Becky did not choose to be gay, she just is. Becky didn’t drive Ross nuts … he was nuts already, probably having driven his wife to suicide.
> I feel bad for Becky, she expects to be treated the same as everyone else, with no difference in attitude between when she was thought of as straight and when she came out. What a ridiculous concept.
Yeah, she should expect disdain, judgement, hell fire and brimstone to rain down on her.
Bloody hell.
Maybe – maybe – the Christian community could stand up to it’s headline features and expand that love to everyone. She should expect sympathy and understanding. Instead Carol hounds her day and night, and forces her to wear a dress in order to feminize her.
Further Carol is trying to force Joyce out of college. If this is not the sign of an evil, introverted, religious fruitcake I don’t what is.
Signed, an atheist.
Hey, don’t. There’s no evidence that Skizz is secretly a bigot or any of that nonsense.
To Skizz-
I’m not sure what I said that so deeply offended you or earned your enmity, but I’m sorry that I have. You mentioned up above that stuff is tying into depressing stuff, I’m sorry if I exacerbated that and I hope you stay safe and offer you a supportive gesture of encouragement if you were inclined to still accept it from me.
I know it is not much, but I can offer this. I grew up in this environment, the environment of this type of Church. This is where I got my ass literally beaten for being a queer homo deviant. I’m not speaking out of some desire to be so negative for coolness points. I’m speaking from memories. I don’t know if it means anything or just makes it worse, but I can leave it like that at least?
I dunno, I’ll admit, I was a bit taken back by your comment and not sure how to respond to it.
I didn’t say she was a secret bigot. I pointed out what she said, and that’s what makes her what she is.
I’m glad you’re not badly upset, Cerberus. My immediate feeling was that anyone who said that you of all people were not good needed a flamethrower pointed at them. You’re one of the goodest people I know of. As you’ve just shown again by asking yourself what pain the other person was in, to have said that, and by trying to mitigate it. I want to grow up to be you, even if you’re younger than me, which I don’t know one way or the other.
You all seem to have read a lot into a brief statement and an avatar. I am not the one making biased assumptions here. Or threats. Or accusations.
I asked one person not to speak to me and got the usual run of self justifications and recriminations.
Apparently, I am straight Christian woman, with no knowledge of any of the issues being raised. One that should be burnt with a flamethrower, after having a bunch of words put in my mouth.
So, there no enmity. I just find you (and your sycophants) mean spirited and as small minded as those you are seeking to condemn. If the characters were really as two dimensional as your interminable writings suggested, no one would be reading this strip.
The request was, please refrain from speaking to me. Honour that request.
Wow. That’s pretty harsh.
Ascribing malicious intent to those who’ve already been clearly shown as the villains of the piece is not much of a stretch. At this point, pretending Carol (or John. Or Mary. Or Ross, back before he pulled out the gun) isn’t likely to be doing something horribly damaging at every step is where you’re far more likely to go wrong.
Maybe your problem is really with Willis’s writing? How often has Cerberus actually been wrong predicting something nasty from any of the strip’s fundy bigots?
C’mon dude, play the ball not the person. You can disagree with someone without being a dick about it.
That’s the weird thing to me. I’m not really sure where even the disagreement is. OP basically said, “the church isn’t a big fan of Becky right now and will probably say some hateful shit and it’ll end poorly” and my post was pretty much “yeah, that’s gonna be a rough one for Becky all right”. So, it definitely felt out of left field to be rounded on like I was a bitter transphobe stalker, but wevs.
I guess I’ll have to make a mental note not to respond directly to the OP’s comments or something from here on out? I dunno. This feels hella weird.
With how swell everything seems to be going for Joyce, I’m almost expecting Ryan to show up at church.
Best part:
Joyce asked Becky if it was appropriate to fight for her.
If only this were more widespread in the activist community.
It’s something Jocelyne imparted onto her at the diner. Joyce wants to get angry and throw herself to the wolves to protect Becky, but in doing so, she can make things worse for her. Joyce has her family to fall back on, even as she’s fighting them, but if Becky ever crossed a line, or Joyce crossed that line for Becky, she’d lose even the extremely tenuous grip she has with them.
Carol had this well planned. The dress is the right size, and the shoes match. Wait, pink slippers? I wonder what will happen if she clicks her heels together six time (double to make up for the lighter shade) and says “There’s no place like Dina’s room” a few times? A house dropping on Carol wouldn’t be out of place, but it would be a bit rude since Becky’s a guest.
…explains why her hair was so much shorter.
Man, Joyce’s mom looks legitimately hurt and concerned instead of full of fury. Will she worry over her alienation from her daughter and try to understand why it’s happening? Or will she snap even harder and blame Becky even more?
ONLY TIME WILL TELL!
Wouldn’t you worry, if your child was going down an impure path?
Not exactly a vote of confidence for her, that expression.
If Joyce’s parents are anything like mine, any guests are also expected to go to church with them, regardless of religious affiliation. This continued until I was at least 30 years old. I’m not sure if it’s some kind of weird passive-aggressive way of churching the unchurched for one Sunday or whether they are so used to everyone who visits be the same flavor of religion that they never thought about it.
SO PROUD OF JOYCE for asking before going ballistic! Progress is being made!
How do you speak reason to a bigoted family member about certain issues without them feeling like you’re dismantling their entire value system, and also that you are going to hell?
Depends on whether or not you still want them in your life or not. So either very carefully accepting a lot of dismissal of humanity or awful bigoted statements and calling them out where it is safe (especially if it doesn’t actively affect you or they don’t have direct power over you, so they don’t feel safe to spout bigotry in shared spaces and make those with those identities or who know people with those identities feel unwelcome and unsafe).
Or, going, fuck it you piece of shit and just letting them have it because bottling it in is literally ripping you apart and you don’t care anymore if they never talk to you again.
There’s probably a third method, but I have never reliably found it.
My approach has been to firmly/angrily lay out rules delineating what you’re willing to put up with, and when they break them, walk out. And don’t come back unless they agree to follow your rules. If they break them again, walk out again.
This is basically the “fuck it” route, but with less deliberate bridge burning and leaving a back door open for the bigots to decide which is more important to them: being shitheads, or having you around. Note that this approach only works if you’re willing to let that door stay shut forever if they don’t decide to play along.
It’s worth noting, I think, that there is no indication that Carol has berated Joyce for her choice of language in any way. Indeed, she seems more than a little scared of her in panel 1. I’m wondering, just wondering, if she’s starting to worry that maybe she’s pushed her daughter too far, just as Hank warned her she would?
Good for Joyce… it’s easy to get mad on behalf of someone else, but we always need to wherewithal to ask how they want it to be handled. To assume is disrespectful. Rock on.
I’m reminded that Roz basically did just that. Getting mad on behalf of all the queer kids whose struggles she personally blamed Joyce for, over the insistence of Leslie telling her to knock that shit off.
Which is a learn every new activist learns often by making at least one big mistake where they bowl over the group they were trying to help and needing to be called out on that (Joyce by Jocelyne, Roz by Leslie).
Oh yeah, I know. I’ve done it myself, and it’s why I’m looking forward to some Roz focus this chapter, and we can see her start to temper that brashness into something mature and genuinely helpful.
There’s nothing more poisonous to a stance on social justice than knowing you’re right.
Joyce handles the ally thing so well I’m going to cry :’)
More like the “best friend since childhood” thing.
Carol’s lack of a big reaction to Joyce’s swearing has me worried. Somehow I don’t think church service is going to be as “safe” as Joyce thinks it will be.
It does seem uncharacteristically stupid that neither Becky, Joyce, nor Jocelyn(sp?) thought of the possibility that the congregation might make another attempt to abduct Becky off to reorientation camp.
I’d give Becky and Joyce a pass, since they haven’t had time to adjust to the full scope of their new reality. And on the flip side, Jocelyn’s been dealing with it for so long that it might not occur to her that those two need the reminder.
Maybe I’m not paranoid enough, but I don’t think it’s going to be that. I don’t think the congregation is that far gone – Hank isn’t certainly and I imagine there are others.
Doing something that drastic, that openly, would need only one person to blow the whistle. And frankly, if Carol (and Hank?) were down with it, it would be much easier to disappear Becky from the house.
I fully expect a lot shaming and victim-blaming and a lot of apologetics for Ross (How could you drive him to do that?) It’s going to be horrible and I suspect Becky is braced for it, even though Joyce isn’t.
But not an outright abduction.
I understand why many of you think this church service is going to be bad, and everyone is going to blame Becky for her father’s current status. It could very easily go that way. But on the other hand, Toedad wasn’t a very likeable guy. Hank only tolerated him, and confessed to wanting to punch him himself. I don’t imagine he was alone in that feeling. Toedad probably got on the nerves of a lot of other church members too. I foresee Becky getting mixed reactions from people, some sympathetic and supportive, and others judgemental. But time will tell.
I like your optimism!
Coming from anyone else I’d’ve taken the gesture of giving Becky church clothes (since she’s limited on those atm) as… Sweet, almost? Of course she is doing it with the added trying to make Becky look more “normal” by her (and the fellow church members’) standards.
I’m quite concerned for Joyce in the third panel, she seems to be able to go from calm and collected to Joyce smash in a matter of milli-seconds and back again
Its not the first time either so I’m thinking that can’t be good for her long term stability
Also Carols got a rack to rival Billies in that first panel…looking good Mrs B
That seems entirely normal for any rationally-minded person? o.O It’d be far more concerning if you couldn’t rein in your emotions as needed.
In any case, that’s more in vein to what I’m used to [from anyone that isn’t overly emotional, bipolar, or a child].
Rather, it shows a notable amount of maturity- which is remarkable when you think of how she was at the start of the comic, and how little time has actually passed in dumbi-verse.
That’s the thing though is that she hasn’t changed all that much in that she can go from calm to angry just like that (imagine I just clicked my fingers) and then back again
She seems like a naturally aggressive person that just happens to have been born into a fundie family, I’d hate to imagine what she’d be like if she were born male and in a different family entirely
Or worse, born male into a fundie family.
Haha, I remember the first time I said some cusses in front of my parents.