I mean, “Yessss, butts!!!” but it’s just unfortunate that butts might have been wacked. I mean, let me rephrase, I’m in favour of kinky butt spanks, but– It sucks that butts might have been gripped by a terrible fate… but no doubt a person named Fate would love gripping butts, but that’s not what I mean butts when I say butts, but when I say…
Someone see me out please, the butts are too enticing
I’d move Dina’s to “Good” if not ‘Trying”
It was unclear which parent reacted to her being in a same sex relationship with the casualness on par with “I need a new book” but it implies neither has negative feelings about it so that gets them something.
I’ve had Dina tagged as an introvert obsessed with dinosaurs, which reminds me of me when I was a kid almost sealed from the world with my own obsessions.
My parents were relieved full stop when I found friends. So that could be a bare minimum for Dina’s parents. That $200 seems to speak of something more than that.
I think the Patreon strip of Dina’s parents cheering at Dina having a girlfriend warrants a spot on the good part of that list. Dorothy’s parents were pretty chill too
Oh also Danny’s parents are emotionally abusive, Ethan’s parents are bizarre, and Sal/Walky’s parents play favourites really hard… I’d add a tier for “actively harmful” or something, just above Scum Of The Earth.
And Dorothy’s dad deliberately made a show of supporting his daughter’s decisions and dreams and that he fully believes in her while also letting her know that she doesn’t have to burn herself out chasing said dream.
And there’s Carla’s parents which 90% chance has at least one dad in it who let her borrow experimental tech just to pull a revenge prank on a transphobe and have backed her and her identity 100%.
So Hank actually has a fair spot of competition.
That said, this is him throwing his hat in the ring in a major major way.
See that part with Carla makes me a little unsure.
I wonder if they just love her so much they just sorta give her everything she asks for?
Then again, it could be they’re just supportive of who she is and her decisions that they’d bankroll any revenge scheme she has because they trust she knows who needs vengence visited upon them.
Eh, insufficient data.
Honestly, standard curve of trans parents works in their favor here. Simply being supportive of who she is and her decisions would put them far and above most trans people’s parents and be worthy of inclusion to the list.
I like to them of them like Mike’s parents but with a firmer grip on reality and Bruce Wayne money.
Mostly because I like the idea of Carla trying to be an unstoppable badass prankster while her parents just smile and nod and praise Carla for her artistic creativity. That the minute Carla began to express her true gender identity they immediately did everything they could so she felt assured and expressed joy that they’ve had a daughter this whole time and were so happy to finally know. That Carla tries so hard to rebel while also knowing she has smiling, loving parents who will give her the world if she asked.
And I like it even more because it means Carla owns her flaws, rather than them being the result of outside forces, like how Sal’s super cool rebel style stems from her need to be self sufficient in the face of her parents’ neglect. With Carla, it’s all because she’s a big spoiled trust fund butthole and she throws her entire being into annoying people because that’s how Carla rolls, rather than Carla’s persona being the result of being forced into it by outside forces, it’s who she is (though the deliberate annoying I also believe is in part because of finding safety in making people hate her before they have the chance to give her shit over her gender identity).
I took it more as excited, thankful relief that their daughter had formed a healthy emotional relationship with someone. Still, it was one of the better parental responses.
Didn’t Dina’s dad (or was it mom?) send her extra spending money to take her new girlfriend out to dinner immediately after being informed that Dina had one? No shock, no time needed to think, just wholesale support for a child who has probably never been in a close friendship before, much less a romantic relationship.
That would seem to fall into the ‘good’ or even ‘great’ category. For me, at least.
Danny’s folks I’d reserve a lot of judgement about. I see upstream some comments about mild racism, but I think this has never been seen. Just described by Sal. And perhaps grudgingly not-argued-against by Danny, perhaps because he couldn’t think of an alternative, such as their parents possibly favoring their straight-A child over the one who spent some time ‘away.’ If true that’s not great, but it’s also not Toe-dad-horrible.
But Sal I think can safely be said to have poor perceptions about a lot of people around her.
While their parents haven’t done anything horribly blatantly racist on camera, there have been definite hints. And the blatant favoritism definitely goes back before Sal “spent some time away” and has in fact been set up as the reason for her actions.
The racism has not however been so blatantly stated that you can’t ignore it if you choose. Willis could actually be laying hints that Sal is mistakenly seeing racism where none exists. That this approach completely contradicts his normal approach to such issues doesn’t mean it isn’t possible.
Pretty big leap for many people, especially one whose whole life has been full of very restrictive and harmful messages about gender. A lot of people have a hard time behaving properly to their trans kids, especially at first. It super sucks. Many people are working on it. We can only hope that Jocelyne’s family will come around, she probably has the most realistic guess of how it’ll all go down.
(And by “behaving properly” I mean not being incredible horrible dangerous jerks, but, you know.) Jocelyne knows she can’t remotely count on them to be okay, so she’s making sure she’s supported and independent as possible. She has new, perhaps tentative hope that she might be able to keep being family with Joyce (and now Becky) when she finally steps out.
OK, I want to say; “Hank for the WIN!” But this is a very good point.
OTOH, while Hank wants to support his daughter, he doesn’t want to start thermo-nuclear war either!
“Ask dad! He knows!” It’s nice to see Joyce’s father puts his daughter in front of almost everything. No wonder Joyce’s first thoughts upon noting a crisis was to ask him what she should do.
Well, he HAS had some experience – Joyce is his fourth child, after all. he may have gotten all of his mistakes out of the way with the first three children.
This had better not lead to some sort of rug pull where it turns out Hank is a jerk and eats puppies or kicks babies or likes the the Unicron Trilogy more than Beast Wars or something.
I have I confession to make: while I was watching it, I liked the fourth Transformers movie. Then, as it ended with Optimus’s jet boots, I realized, with dawning horror, just how truly bad it is. And that’s been how I take most Michael Bay films: I like them the first time, and then the next time I think, “Oh my God I can’t believe I enjoyed this steaming pile of garbage.” The only films of his that I’ve ever really truly liked, would be “Armageddon” and “The Rock”.
I hated BayTrek 1 so much I didnt even see BayTrek 2. Then all my friends who’d liked BayTrek 1 came back and told me I’d made the right call saving my money.
I’m skipping opening weekend of the new Trek movie, I’ll wait for the revievws and decide whether or not to bother based on friends’ and critics’ reactions.
The original Khan made all my friends hoot with laughter as well (but yeah, that farce of an attempt to hide the truth about Into Darkness is pretty bonkers). I’m more of a First Contact/The Undiscovered Country kind of girl, myself.
Undiscovered Country is undoubtedly my favorite Star Trek movie. First Contact was… a good action movie on its own, but it was so wildly inconsistent with the TV series that it was pretty jarring in context.
Hank Hill is a decent guy who has his own father issues, and who often manages to overcome them. Yeah, he’s anal retentive to the nth degree (and Lord knows propane is a weird thing to obsess over), but he manages to do the right thing.
(Also, according to an interview I heard on Fresh Air years ago, based in part on a neighbor of Mike Judge.)
Yeah, you can keep your propane tanks and swapping them in and out and refilling them and having the one that’s in first die in the middle of cooking and maybe you don’t have a spare and even if you do it sucks because you didn’t notice your slow cooked BBQ pork butt drop back down to room temperature and now it’ll be who knows how long until we eat.
I had a contractor run a gas line out to my grill, straight off of the same county provided natural gas that my furnace and oven/stove runs on. You have to buy a grill with the correct venturies, but that’s not a problem at any shop that is serious about selling grills.
Hank, you continue to be an excellent father. I just hope, when the time comes, you’ll be willing to stand up to your wife in support of your daughter.
Not really, you just have a four year head start to learn how to hide your fear before they start remembering all the times you goofed up and take that sign of weakness as an indicator that they can get away with
They aren’t snakes. They just handle them in order to test God. Some of them, at least. Which the Bible distinctly tells them not do do, so I have no idea why snake handling is a thing in some cults. It’s just as screwed up as having a wife swapping Christian church. Well, maybe not, if there’s no coveting involved…
My eyes are playing tricks on me a bit, because I originally read “sermon area” as “Sauron area” which hopefully it has not become in regards to Becky. Although, now I’m picturing fundie churches as being orcs (Tolkien’s “During the Great War, we were all orcs” comes to mind) and everything makes waaayyy too much sense.
Oddly enough, Sauron would probably work better as an evil analogue to the Holy Spirit, as Sauron served Morgoth (formerly Melkor) who is sometimes implied to be the father of Gothmog, lord of Balrogs. Especially as he causes the fall of Numenor by converting the king and Numenorean nobility to the worship of Morgoth as the one true God with the Valar being lying spirits of great power in such a theology. Still, yours works incredibly well, and is very catchy, and so I prefer it.
I’m not worried about praying the gay away. Becky would meet that with accurate and insightful snark times a zillion. My worries are about some sort of format that would require Becky to stay still and silent while being eviscerated (hopefully just verbally), such as the sermon.
“They’re more scared than you. Because, seriously, you sprained that wrist punching a guy twice your size so hard that he flew through the air and landed out cold under a pile of cops. They’re f-in’ terrified of what you might do to them.”
That’s because he’s gay. You have to be attracted to Joyce, at least superficially, to get sucked in. The reason Joe’s fine is because Mike was there to yank him out, but the experience scarred him. And Mike is fine because he’s Mike.
Well, honestly after Peter Gabriel left and they shifted from experimental prog rock to prog-ish 80s pop, they sounded a lot like Phil Collins’s solo work.
Thing is, a lot of younger people may actually recognize the Disturbed cover of “Land of Confusion” and not realize Genesis made the original version. That was the case for me about two years ago anyway.
Hank really is looking to Joyce for guidance, too. I think she’s making him a braver man than he had been in the past, and helping him see some of the bullshit too.
there so underrepresented, and I’m talking about in real life. I’m one but, it’s just so infuriating to hear about what the crazy Christians did now. I live my life by matthew 7: 1-4
Seconded. Another Matthew 7:1-4 Jesus-follower here, but after all the shit I’ve seen in Christianity, I don’t really feel comfortable with the label of “Christian” tbh.
I prefer the label “Acolyte of the Way” after John 14:6.
I’m pretty much over ALL organized religion at this point in my life, whether you’re Christian, Muslim, Scientologist, or Pastafarian.
In a small German town, they sued the town for not being allowed to put up signs indicating their services next to the catholic and protestant signs (hanging on public signposts) that are common. And it sounded very much like their services actually happen.
Doing this is a mostly atheist town in east Germany makes it more absurd still.
“They’re more scared of you than you are of them.”
“Like spiders?”
“Yes, Joyce. Just like spiders.”
“So we let them live because they eat mosquitoes?”
“That’s… not quite what I was getting at…”
On a more serious note – you go, Hank! This gives me great hope that he’ll continue to stand up to Carol, and try his darnedest to reconcile his beliefs with loving and supporting Joyce and Becky.
Yeah, he may not realize the full weight of his choice to actually support his youngest daughter, but this moment is where he fully lives up to the arc he started across when he picked her up and when he supported her at the fountain and ensures he has a chance of retaining any of his daughters.
He’s really done good here today and I’m really hopeful that he’ll continue to support at least this daughter as best he can.
Am I the only one who gets the uneasy feeling that Carol is JEALOUS of how close Hank is to Joyce and how he treats her?? Feels like that’ll explode in a bad way before it gets better.
Are you saying you see something like a “you always take her side, how dare you not support me, I’m your wife, she’s just your daughter, we need to present a united front but you always undermine me” argument coming up? Because Carol’s bad, but I don’t think she’s quite that flavor of toxic.
The moisture around my eyes is because I am reminded of my own father (80 yo in a couple of weeks). He didn’t always understand, but he was always there to support and encourage. He would point out where I was wrong, but he never judged me. He would always listen and give feedback, but he never tried to fit my thoughts into his own intellectual framework. (He has downsides too, but still 10/10 would grow up with him again 🙂 )
Panel 2: YES! Thank you, Hank, you picked up the hint. And you made the connection to her offhand statement and why she acted so “out of character” yesterday, realizing that that’s why your daughter ran away.
And you do it not as an accusation, but as an appeal to understanding.
This is A+ dadding right here.
Panels 3 and 4: Oh fuck, her eyes are just heart-broken right there. She’s been battered and traumatized and then has been denied a lot of her processing because of all the swarms of assholes desperate to hand-wave away the horror of what happened so as to preserve the status quo of their hateful beliefs.
This is her letting herself not just be angry, but to be vulnerable. To admit how scared she feels right now in the home and the church she always thought were the safest places in the world. How terrified she is of losing her family as easily as Becky did simply because she can’t hate like she was raised to.
Those beady eyes, that thousand-yard stare hits me right in the feels, because that right there is how it feels when you bypass the sadness and the fear into the sheer abyss of everything just bursting into flames around you in triggers and pain. Joyce has so badly needed her family to understand, to love her, to treat her not as an enemy but as a scared kid who’s been through shit and needs a loving family, not a fight for her humanity.
And Bob, bless Hank, he delivers.
Panel 6: This is the line that truly encapsulates what loving support looks like:
“Never let anyone shame you for this.”
While putting on a marker that sets her out (visually) as “different”, as “damaged”, as a reminder of the dark deeds of their congregation, as a sign of heresy from what is taught as moral rightness.
For the first time, an older adult besides Jocelyne has actually reached out and told her its okay to not be the carbon copy she was raised to be. That she should not feel shame for being who she is. For supporting Becky. For losing the strength of her conviction in the Church.
And I think it might be a new moment for Hank. He’s been just as raised in the tradition of “cast out the sinner, lest their sin corrupt you”. He’s going to be subjected to all manner of whispering about how “he can’t keep a house pure” and so on.
But you can tell he’s haunted by whatever went down with Jordan, of losing connection completely, and even if he doesn’t fully understand, he knows he doesn’t want to lose Joyce either.
And who knows, maybe with time, he’ll also be ready to accept Jocelyne.
But it’s going to be hard for him. Right now, he’s doing all right on his own, but it’s another thing entirely to risk his marriage to do right by his kids and in these panels, I think he’s starting to realize the stakes that are starting to stack up.
I’m sure you’ve heard this a lot but i wanted to thank you for writing these panel by panel impressions. They really help me appreciate some of the intricacies of things that I wouldn’t have noticed otherwise. I hadn’t picked up that Joyce had taken off her brace because it set her apart so thanks for helping me appreciate all the little things a bit more
One of the things I love about media like Dumbing of Age and Steven Universe is that it rewards close reading and over-analysis by burying clues into character motivation or future arcs or just thematic little touches.
Nothing is unintentional. Everything has meaning and so it can actually be rewarding to indulge my natural inclination to go all Hernando from Sense8 over literally everything.
Oh, I love Steven Universe for that exact reason! Buffy the vampire slayer also seems to fall into that category for me as well, where tiny little things in what characters do or how they act lead to excellent intricacies in their past and what they’ll go on to do. Over-analyzing is the best!
Rule of Conservation. I believe it’s the super-trope for the assorted Chekhov’s X. It is the little touches that help bring it all together. Constantly evolving art style/ability helps as well.
I have a feeling Hank would end up saying something like “I may be confused by this at times and I may not fully understand what is happening, but I love you, and I’m going to do my best to understand and support you Jo-Jocelyne.” Which, admittedly, may still be a bit optimistic, but I feel like that is how Hank is developing as a character.
Given that my hyper left-leaning dad’s first words to me after coming out as a transwoman were, “I’m sure you think that, but…” then leaving for the night. This is someone who’d rallied for LGBT rights prior, I guess that doesn’t immunize a person from taking a “not in my house” stance.
Lucky for me he came around after two years of sandbagging the fuck out of me.
That’s right, i recently came out as gay to my parents (worst x-mas ever) and they were super left-leaning (well, more the equivalent for that in my country) and supportive of LGBT+ causes, with friends and all and even discussing with me and my little sis why we shouldn’t be bigoted and that LBGT+ people have the same rights as everyone and all…
…Their reaction wasn’t’ bad, but i felt let down as they passed the night going on and on about they couldn’t believe this, how i couldn’t be sure of that because i am young and have never even kissed a girl, how it doesn’t add up with they know of me (everyone says that, it’s irritating) and even asking if it was their falt for not being present enougth.
I am also not expecting the best here.
Yeah. Hank may get there eventually, but Jocelyne realizes that it’s extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon. Even LGBTQ+ positive parents can have a big learning curve (I’m sorry your dad’s was steep, Apostate, and glad he came around!), and the Browns aren’t starting at a positive position. They have a very long way to go from their upbringing/environment/worldview to being safe and supportive towards Jocelyne.
Support for trans kids is unfortunately very rare and Hank is already starting from a disadvantage because they are probably quite literally the hot topic of the pulpit of the last few months, presented as a group of bathroom invading child-molesters.
Jocelyne fully expects that when she comes out, she is losing her entire family and especially her parents and I’d be hard pressed to actually disagree with her as that would involve a shit ton of evolution from Hank, of the type he is only just beginning now (let us not forget that the step he worked hard to reach here is being able to support his ally daughter and that took considerable work and effort on his part).
Not to mention what Apostate hinted at with even queer-affirming parents turning bigot against their trans kids. My own parents marched in support of gay rights. My dad turned to his lesbian friend for advice on what to do about his trans kid. He still wanted to send me to reparative therapy at the end of the day.
I would just like to add that I think panel 1 is a big internal “oh no” moment for Hank, were he realizes not just why she ran away yesterday, but also how she must have felt when she came home last night. It looks like he’s really regretting saying that it “was about not loosing an argument” last night.
Yup, Hank KNOWS, far better then Joyce, just how much shit he will get for acting like a human towards his daughters (two of them so far, maybe he will get to know about the third one soon as well).
he’s doing such a good here for his daughter and i’m proud of him
..it’s weird. this..discovery that your home is not a home, the place where you raised your family was not as welcoming as you thought it was – it’s entirely different as an mid-life adult than it would be as a kid. i’m sure that Hank’s had to walk away from places and people before; it’d be hard not to have to do that in this society. but I bet he was hoping that he wouldn’t have to do it here.
OMG
It just occurred to me (which I guess means I’m slow as fuck but anyway), but what if Hank has always known. What if he had his breakdown like Joyce had, and all these years he’s been aware of all the bullshit, but he just held onto his faith and his community because they’re all he has. What if Hank is Joyce version #0.1.
Ooh, that’s an interesting theory, but I feel that he might be sincere in his statement that he is following Joyce down her path as best he can, trusting in her judgment. Especially given how awkwardly he’s tried to adjust to supporting a gay person as a person compared to Jocelyne who’s a bit more “been here, done this, just packing up my bags to leave”.
At the very least I suspect his relationship with ToeDad can be seen as an analogue to his relationship with the community. Sometimes something felt so… wrong that he almost – but not really – said something.But he never did until his daughter was on the line.
But I think Bagge might be on to something in that tiny things occasionally felt off to him, but it wasn’t until things started coming to a head at the fountain that he’s had to genuinely think about stuff and it wasn’t until this last weekend that he’s had to do some very fast evolution to not lose a second child.
IME, more likely is that Hank has been so insulated he’s never had to think about this stuff before – he’s never had to really think about gay people or about the dark side of his faith or whatever, because possibly he’s never known anyone before Becky who was queer and came out as someone he cares about (he has probably encountered gay people before, but they probably were not people he knew and cared for, so it was easy to write them off as seduced by Satan). Certainly, Becky is the first person he’s cared about who he tried to be accepting of.
And honestly, given his utter inexperience with gay stuff, he’s handling it pretty well. Relatively speaking.
By which I mean, he’s not going full-on Toedad, he’s making an effort to watch his language and not unthinkingly blurt out bigoted shit, and he’s not overcompensating the other way so much that he’s making this huge fawning show over Becky and how “brave” and “inspirational” she is (hi this happens to me a fair bit when I came out in meatspace after the Pulse shooting as a fuck you, I won’t hide for you bigots type of thing and yeah. Trust me, people going too far the other way is almost worse to me in terms of my comfort level than people pulling a Carol and being hateful and it’s hard to explain why but has a lot to do with how I want to be seen as a person and not put up on some pedestal of Ideal Tragic Queer).
But Hank is handling it almost too well (bigots trying to be supportive usually hit on whistle-wording of some variety and often go through a phase where they have a steep learning curve about what’s hurtful and what’s not… plus they usually first try the whole have you tried not being gay? thing and often only once it becomes apparent that not being gay is not doable do they try to come around IME – but even if they try to come around right away, it takes time and the learning curve can be painful for both sides). Which suggests to me that even though it’s his first time being accepting of something like this, it’s not his first time being through something similar, and he took the lessons of previous mistakes to heart.
… And after that realization, I am wondering what the odds are are that Jordan’s estrangement is for a similar reason. And because speaking in depth about Jordan seems verboten, I am wondering whether he is the first of the Brown queer kids to come out, and if that’s why Jocelyne seems to be bracing herself for losing most, if not all, of her family when she does come out and so certain that there is a 0% chance that family will win out over faith for her parents.
OTOH, we haven’t actually seen much of Hank supporting Becky directly. He’s talked to Joyce about it a little and we’re seeing him support her, but still not really addressing Becky’s gayness directly.
I suspect that kind of conversation would bring out a lot of the awkward painful learning curve.
And he’ll need that with Jocelyn when that blows up.
I also think Hank’s the compromiser and peacemaker. He’ll try to help and support whoever he’s talking to, but not push confrontation. Unlike both Joyce and Carol. He’s managed to avoid any direct confrontation or having to choose sides between the two,but that’s not likely to last. That’ll be his real moment of truth.
Like, he wants to be supportive and follow Joyce’s lead, but he’s working from one hell of a deficit and so his form of support has just been not actively adding bigotry to Becky’s plate.
However, he also hasn’t really done much to show her direct love and support. There’s been no active direct harm, which puts him far and above most of the other Browns outside his daughters, but there’s also been nearly zero direct conversations with Becky. No real check-ins to see if she’s okay. Not even much in directly speaking up on her behalf on the kitchen table outside of his usual peacekeeper shtick.
Like, he’s kinda compensated for the awkwardness of his personal growth by just not engaging personally with Becky much of all, instead focusing almost entirely on Joyce. And his comments when she got home last night suggest he’s still prone to viewing Becky as some sort of corrupting sinful figure.
But he seems to be mostly handling that awkwardness by almost minimizing Becky the person and I know a lot about that sort of “support” and how alienating that can feel.
Sadly, that’s also the part he’s going to have to grow and evolve on if he’s going to be a good dad to his other daughter, but this comic gives a good hint that he might at least be willing to try.
I’m still very proud of Hank today and I think he’s on a very good path. I’m just noting how new this path is and that he’s got a long journey left on it. Especially to get to a point where he’d not only be ready to “tolerate” Jocelyne’s existence, but actually support her.
The vibe I get off of Hank is actually very similar to my Father-in-Law, and how his initial attempts to understand his son was gay have been described to me. He’s an incredible, loving, open-hearted man, and is almost embarrassing in his demonstrations of love for my husband and myself. But it was a tangled awkward progress to get him to that point from the initial coming out.
I do think Hank is trying hard, and I do think Hank will successfully grow from all this. Whether it’s enough to love his -other- daughter, or whether he’s able to bring his wife along on the same journey…
Well, my mother-in-law barely acknowledges my existence, so… It’s not a given.
Weird, I got the opposite impression from this comic. Hank is hardly doing this for the first time – don’t forget that Joyce is his fourth child, and that at least one of his previous children (Jordan) has faced a ‘crisis of faith’ with them, now. (It’s possible that Joss has, as well, but simply pretends that he’s dealt with it differently.) I get the impression that Hank and Carol dealt with Jordan’s crisis very differently, and that it has led to their estrangement. Hank is now trying a gentler approach with Joyce, and is doing it without his wife’s input – because, I imagine, she would not be OK with it. Hank is hesitant and fumbling because he is trying to learn from his past mistakes. He’s also trying to do it without ruining his place in his community, or his relationship with his wife. He is very much the “don’t upset the apple cart” type, but he does care.
Once you recognize that all human systems are enormous trash fires, you stop trying to figure out how to switch to a system that isn’t an enormous trash fire, since they don’t exist. Instead, you ask better questions about your current trash fire. Like, “Am I doing everything I can to contain this enormous trash fire, even though I know it will never go out?” “Do the people in charge recognize that this whole place is an enormous trash fire?” And, most importantly, “Am I surrounded by a team of firefighters or a team of arsonists?”
Not every little dirty detail, but you should at least have a general idea. I know my mother is jealous and insecure. My father is controlling, manipulative but fun loving. To go this long not realizing they’re not always in agreement, that in certain situations one or the other, both or neither might be more likely to support you boggles my mind.
The only things I can think are: 1. Maybe Hank and Carol always presented a united front to their kids, only disagreeing behind the scenes. 2. Joyce seemed when she first came to college to believe most of the stuff her parents and church taught, and to be someone who followed the rules pretty closely. It’s possible that she didn’t often go against what her parents believed, so she might not have had much opportunity to see how Hank reacted to rebellion as opposed to Carol.
Joyce had a pretty darn polyanna view up until the start of the comic. She didn’t know any of the dark sides to anything. (Except for made up dark sides about things she didn’t really know.)
Iunno, given how much her family and her faith and her image of what families SHOULD look like are all intertwined and braided together into one big thing…
It doesn’t surprise me at all to think that she was encouraged to think her family was perfect and functional, and that she was lucky to be part of it.
You know that saying, you don’t know what you’ve got ’til it’s gone? That applies to familial dysfunction and emotional abuse, too. It’s not until you start to see the world from a different perspective that you can really understand how messed up things were back home.
A lot of folks from those sorts of cultures believe very strongly that children should be kept ignorant of the fact that arguments and disagreements happen in marriage.
Like, I was in my 20s before I discovered that when I’d been getting bullied horribly and was getting beaten up on the daily and begging my parents to pull me from school, my father had wanted to send me to a private school to get me out of the place where a kid could punch me in front of the teacher and I’d be the one who got in trouble.
But to my face during that whole time, it was a lot of I had to go back, home schooling was not an option, and I wasn’t allowed to be a “coward” by “running away” from my “problems.” Cuz my mother won the argument, and united front and all that.
It’s entirely possible that Joyce’s parents never let her see the inner workings of the marriage.
I feel a lot more parents could stand to model for their kids that healthy disagreements is a natural part of any relationship. And let them see all parts of that, including the communication surrounding issues.
Cause I feel that “united front” garbage so often just sends the message that if you have disagreements later in life with partners its because there’s something wrong with you. And it creates situations like this where one can think their parent actually didn’t support them or did support them when in fact the reality was the opposite.
Eh. It’s really easy to assume your parents are one way until you find the border of their conditional support.
Like, to Joyce, she was raised in nothing else but her family and church and being told that her family was a perfect model of how families were supposed to be. And sure, yeah, her brother stopped coming around, but her parents always made a big deal about how much they loved him and it was just known that Jordan was just too Jordan to really come out and be out.
It’s really only been in the last month that she’s been allowed to experience the world itself and meet the sort of people to make her question how she was raised and that has come with only just now stumbling on points of disagreement with her parents and standing up for her friends against them on certain issues.
And in so disagreeing, she’s found out a lot about how her parents actually are. Like, she’s found out that her mom’s love is toxic and based more on her internal image of herself as a glorious servant of Christ and her faith than any actual regard for her children. She’s found out that her dad is kinda milquetoast and shies away from conflict. She’s learned for the first time that the united front they’ve always presented because “that’s what healthy families do” is actually built by a lot of behind closed doors arguing.
She’s learned that her parents and church can be wrong.
And that’s a thing. It’s hard to realize toxicity when you’re smack dab stuck in it. I went over 25 years believing my parents were supportive and awesome because I hadn’t come out as trans yet and they weren’t as visibly awful and fucked up as the families of my friends and romantic partners.
It’s taken the last couple of years to fully realize the extent of the conditionality of their support, the nastiness and manipulative cruelty of my dad, the cowardice of my mom, the drunken bigoted judgment of my uncle, that the tiny little comments here and there between the grand statements of liberalism and support were actually red flags of their bigotries and prejudices, that my dad’s acts of abuse growing up weren’t actually the “little things” I made them out to be.
I feel that might just be a rite of passage for anyone dealing with toxic or abusive home environments. Reaching that point of clarity where you realize just how bad what you’ve escaped actually was.
there are a ton of examples of this in this thread but, like. i think sometimes you can care about something so much that you find it impossible to take any criticism of it? or at least not to take that criticism personally? idk that’s different for people and situations but not all of us get to see construtive criticism as a necessary part of growth, haha. sometimes it gets turned into an all or nothing game where either you’re one hundred percent for the thing or one hundred percent against it. that’s a false equivalence, but sometimes accepting that things are flawed is hard.
for me personally, the way that my family was structured admitting failure or mistakes or even disagreement was practically impossible. I got consistently shafted because of my parents’ decisions but I was supposed to just put on a smile and take it because Family; and then when my sister really had struggles it was always framed as her unreasonability. which: my sister is hella stubborn and doesn’t know how to pick battles, but all her emotions were and continue to be super valid.
it’s only in the last couple of years that I’ve started realizing how much work I put into trying to maintain my family’s emotions?? trying to smooth things over and out, keep things from bubbling up to a breaking point. we were so co-dependent and miserable with each other, continually. it took getting out to get perspective and to really start building myself up as a person separate from that. and my family’s bullshit is continuing to be my family’s bullshit, but it’s not my problem anymore, hahahaa.
anyways the point i’m making is that for years i could never acknowledge that maybe what my parents had been doing was even a tiny bit screwed up because that would mean that they were wrong about something and they couldn’t possibly be wrong!! not when they always told me how wrong i was and how right they were. 🙂 🙂 🙂
I didn’t figure out that my dad was a toxic a-hole until I got to college. I had to get outside that sphere to really see what was happening and why I hurt.
It took coming out to my dad… hell, really coming out to my uncle to realize what a toxic manipulative abusive piece of shit my dad was and what was at the heart of a lot of earlier actions on his part.
Sometimes you need a wakeup call, either in the form of seeing alternative models of what “normal family” looks like or them doing something so transparent it makes all their subtlety come into focus.
Look at how much Joyce has changed in the last couple months. She’s always thought both her parents were loving and supporting because she never really crossed them. And always trusted parents (and especially dads) in general because she did trust hers. Now she’s seen how badly wrong that can go and how wrong her upbringing was about so many things. Dads can be monsters. Her mother can support the monster. Her church can be the source of that pain. And her dad is a part of all that.
How can she be expected to easily still trust him when everything else she believed in is collapsing around her.
It looks like she might actually be able to, but he’s going to have to earn it.
Now though I’m wondering if Hank will get in trouble for walking out himself or his future actions in defence of his daughter, being accused of putting family before Jesus. (Oh such a terrible crime!)
(I remember like many times at church being told you were to put Jesus first above everything, including other people, /everyone/ even your parents (or kids). Though you could put other people before yourself! Man that was a source of a lot of emotional problems for me as a kid. The story of Issac and Abraham messed me up. Though I much prefer what I have been told is an occasional Jewish interpretation- that Abraham was wrong as god never speaks to him directly afterwards- never heard a christian interpret it that way ever.)
I’ve never been able to preach this text without saying, “Abraham was wrong!” Unless you read some stuff into this (like he was expecting G_d to intervene – there is a little textual evidence for it) we have to say – as the entire rest of the Bible says! – that it’s not ok to sacrifice your kids for religious reasons.
From a non-religious, more sociological view, that text is easy to understand: It’s a justification for not practicing human sacrifice, like many other religions of the time.
Naw. The same explanation works for a theologicalreason. Abraham proves he’s just as dedicated to his God as the others are to theirs by being willing to do what God says, but God establishes that such a thing is not necessary or proper, and that there is an allowable substitute.
We’re talking about a theocracy. It’s often difficult to separate sociology and religion in those situations.
Ardie Bee: I find the “Abraham was wrong” idea intriguing. I guess you don’t mean he was wrong about what God said, as that’s given explicitly in the text. So then the idea that he actually failed the test God gave him. That he was supposed to argue with God like Moses did.
I’ll have to look into that interpretation. I’m really only familiar with the one thejeff stated and the one given in New Testament book of Hebrews, which, while a later book, I’ve always assumed was informed by Jewish thought at the time (given the context and intended audience).
The problem with that theology is the confirmation that it would be necessary and proper had God wanted him to do so. That being willing to so at God’s command is a Good Thing.
The idea that he actually failed is more tempting to me, but I don’t think it’s well supported. That disobedience to God can be a good thing in some cases is more of a modern notion. Much like the idea that God wanted Adam & Eve to “rebel” and eat the apple as a way of maturing and leaving the nest.
It all fits nicely with some more modern ideas of God as the parent who wants His human children to grow up and become independent, but not well with earlier theology.
You who build these altars now
to sacrifice these children,
you must not do it anymore.
A scheme is not a vision
and you never have been tempted
by a demon or a god.
You who stand above them now,
your hatchets blunt and bloody,
you were not there before,
when I lay upon a mountain
and my father’s hand was trembling
with the beauty of the word.
I suspect he will get in trouble for it, in similar ways to Joyce currently getting in trouble for it. “Defying God” by defending the “sinful” tends to be very frowned on in those communities. And it is much better for a family to casually disown a “sinful” child than to embrace their “evil” without trying to save them to the Church.
And he’ll get even more shit once Jocelyne comes out and the church gossip mill gets all fired up over that.
You know, I really like what Hank did here, and I’m glad to see some decent parenting happening in a context where it can’t be guaranteed. But I’m really sad that what should be normal and completely unexceptional is making people so very very happy.
One of the unhappy facts of my life is the enthusiasm with which my friends tell their own male partners about how I look after my children and do laundry and mop floors and cook and… just generally try to pull my weight as someone who lives in the same house as the rest of my family!
I’m glad Hank’s done it right (and Willis, you’re rehearsing your own parenting here, yeah?) but I’m sorry that so many of us see so little of this that it feels like wonderful parenting. This needs to be the norm, not the exception.
Oh, Cheese. I just decided to go back and read DOA from the beginning, and Becky saying goodbye to Joyce in the, what, fourth or fifth strip just about broke my heart, after seeing all that’s happened 🙁
True. Judging by Joyce’s face in the last panel, she could still use some reassurance on that front. Some sort of confirmation that Joyce won’t get taken out of school for continuing to support Becky would probably help.
Yeah, making that specific support explicit would be very important to reducing her anxiety on the matter. Like, this is very comforting and implies that support well, but it would be a nice touch to state unequivocally that he won’t be taking her out of college just for growing as a person.
She got that injury standing up to a bully. A bully they agree with. So it proves she stands for what’s right when they don’t. That’s the way I see it anyway.
Alt 2: they don’t want to accept that their beloved faith could lead people to act like ToeDad. That seems to be the message he was going for in that song earlier.
they’re scared of change and that they might be wrong
the way hank talks about them makes them sound like woodland creatures or something where “you don’t have to be scared of them because they’re more scared of you than they are of them!” but while deer might eat your plants they’re also gonna run away when you come near, and i don’t think these people are gonna do that
idk you could maybe tie that in with Carol’s comment from a few strips ago about wanting Hank to get a gun to shoot squirrels, but that’s a bit of a reach
I don’t know the implications this has on the metaphor, but if you’re not in a car, deer are really not all that afraid of you. And if you get too close to one, it will eff your ess right up. Like, people die from deer attacks.
i need to up my deer lore, clearly, i’d forgotten that that happens! most of the ones where i used to live would run away as soon as they spotted us. i mean, there was that one time one ran right into our car, but it bounded away after that and we never saw it again. but i don’t think those facts do bad things for the metaphor – like real woodland animals, if you get too close to these people and they see you as a threat, they will wreck you up.
This may be me but I wonder how long Hank has been trapped in a congregation of jerks that he can’t respect for (or so he sees it) the sake of his marriage and family?
I get the vibe that he’s used to assuming that the jerks were few and far between (Toedad) and that comic where he’s overhearing the gossip is the first he’s genuinely been paying attention to the nasty rumors and gossip and realizing how fucked they are.
And I fail links forever again. Let’s try that once more.
Given that they changed churches several times because of b-words, I think Hank has been trapped in that congregation (A) not long and (B) his entire life.
If I remember correctly, they keep changing churches when they find the congregation insufficiently spiritual. Now I’m thinking Carol makes those decisions.
It’s possible other churches were better in this regard, but Carol didn’t like it or didn’t care.
I think it’s safe to say Joyce is a Daddy’s girl. Which is probably for the best, if she took after her mother she may have ended up being a bit more like Mary.
It used to be anything resembling her definition of Sin would cheese her right off into a righteous temper tantrum. Now Joyce seems to only get upset when people go after her friends or if her religious foundations get questioned.
She may be a Daddy’s Girl, but she takes after her mom too. She’s definitely got the judgmental angry thing, which we’ve never seen even hints of from Hank. She’s just got a lot of empathy to go with it, which (after a bit of learning and prompting) points that anger and judgment in better directions.
I think the distance from family has helped with the judgmental attitude. Again, it seems more focused on defending her belief’s foundations and her friends.
Beginning of DoA Joyce would’ve tried to rip apart Becky and Ethan for their attractions. That was one of the first real prejudices to fade.
Oh yeah. She’s changed drastically, but the anger and defiance are still there. They’ve just changed targets. She’s still not doing the peacemaker/conciliation thing her dad does. She’s still all righteous fury when she sees a wrong – she’s just got a better sense of what the wrongs are.
Fair enough. I prefer that actually. Joyce is a passionate gal, her losing said passion (which is what fuels her anger) would be removing something from her.
I’d still argue she’s got more Hank in her persona though. Her gut instinct is more like her Mom, per her hiccuping freak outs, but she seems to keep a level head beyond that.
also that, when Joyce needed help re: her sexual assault, it wasn’t the church that helped her out? it was her friends on the floor. and like – there’s this thing, where you know if you talk about it to certain people that you’re never going to live it down, and they’re never going to accept you. even though it wasn’t your fault, you’re never going to be the same to them. when even the police can’t help her find justice, what help is she going to get from her family? it’s probably why Joyce hasn’t talked about it at all to them – she’s no longer “pure”. I mean, there really isn’t a positive narrative for reclaiming yourself after sexual assault in the church. but the dorm floor is the first place where she hasn’t had to live up to any standards except her own, and I think that was probably freeing for her.
To be fair, that was the best group to go to immediately. Parents would’ve taken her out of school, which she did not want, and the Church was back at her home town, not at college. Even still I’d see her going to her friends first anyways if she could not speak with her parents/ family. Younger people tend to not have a relationship built up with their Pastors after all, they’re typically just the guy who give Sunday sermons. Maybe the youth pastor, but friends still probably trump that.
That’s typically NOT how a church should work, by the way. Something like sexual assault, that’s a serious – private- matter. Typically something like that is handled with discretion, not publicly to the whole congregation. Unless the Pastor is a gossip king of course – which is typically a sign to go find new roots elsewhere. No, typically Pastors just put you in touch with a closed net support group – inside the Church or outside it.
And actually Joyce didn’t go to anyone. She hasn’t revealed it to anyone, right. Just those who were there or who stumbled into the morning after meeting.
And Becky later on, but Joyce couldn’t tell her, but pushed Sarah into doing it.
They’ve supported her, but she’s mostly been in denial refusing to deal with it at all.
hahahaah welp now i have absolutely positively no reason to be worried about this coming up in this current plot arc but i still feel concerned as heck
Like a lot of families, I bet Carol had more to do with Joyce’s upbringing than Hank. Especially if Carol was a stay at home mom, one who home schooled and wouldn’t let Joyce ride her bike around the block until she was 16. Proper gender roles and such, which is to say, like most families of 50 years ago.
But Hank knows his role. He is there to comfort and walk with Joyce in her troubles. Daddy? Abba maybe. More support and love with fewer conditions than she expected. Hank’s not perfect, but he’s trying. Can we really ask more of him? Hard to fault him so far.
Hank may be taking the family to a new church next week. Jonathan and Carol won’t like that.
Carol being the homeschooler would trump Hank’s influence no matter what – more time with her kid after all. However Hank does not seem like a distant father, so I would imagine any time he WAS home from work was spent with kids and Carol. He just seems more invested with Joyce then I would expect from the traditional model (Which my mind conjures up Don Draper as an example of. Distant, more concerned about the newspaper then his kids.)
One time they gave out thematic clocks, oh my gods it was so terrible, every hour was a different theme. “What’re we waking up to today? EXISTENTIAL CRISIS OVER HEAT DEATH OF THE UNIVERSE! Ah, that one’s a classic.”
Eh…I’m kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Sure, Hank has been awesome here. On the other hand, he apparently willingly joined the movement, married Carol, and contributed to raising his kids to stay in the lifestyle.
Best-case scenario, he’s a good guy who’s been too browbeaten by Carol and keeps his good side quiet, using it in private conversations with Joyce rather than make a public stand for good. Worst-case scenario, he lets Joyce think he’s on her side, only to let her down when sh*t really hits the fan.
Yeah, I kind of hate to rag on one of the better dads. But Joyce is a little too autobiographical for me too…
Yeah, there’s a lot of parents who’ll back up the more abusive one. Or just stand aside.
But, uh, that’s… that’s actually a pretty major violation of literally all of the rules of being a parent. And unrelated to any rules of being a spouse.
I think we’re seeing now where Joyce gets some of her very best qualities–that propensity to choose love for people over faith in doctrine every time, her intolerance of b-words and the s-word they pull. Her kindness and default state of love for other people.
She’s learned a lot pretty recently about how to unfold that love, and what’s really part of kindness and what’s bigotry masquerading as it. But those are the things–kindness, love for other people–she holds most dear, and I think this here is why.
So this is about Joyce and the focus needs to be on her. But since most of the focus in these comments is on here, I feel comfortable focusing on Hank.
Remember: Hank was as fundamentalist as Joyce was at the beginning. This is all new to Hank as well. Look back a few comics ago when he overheard the pious jerks talking about Becky. Look at his expression. That’s hitting him hard. That’s not just hearing a random group of assholes. That’s him looking in the mirror, and seeing himself. Who he was. Knowing that if it wasn’t Becky, JOYCE’S Becky, someone he was personally connected with, he might have been part of that conversation. Probably not the one leading it, but a participant, silently nodding his head, and thanking God that HIS daughter turned out RIGHT.
The amazing thing about Hank is that now that he’s confronted with this, now that it is his daughter, and his daughter’s best friend, now that it’s happening to him, he’s changing. He’s realizing. It’s a shame it took him until something affected him personally. But at least now that it does, he’s changing.
Joyce had her moment, when Becky first arrived. Joyce had the moment where she was confronted with her friend’s well-being, or with what she had been taught. And she chose, in that moment, to believe her friend was right, and good, and valuable, whatever the teachings of her religion says. And then Joyce had to deal with the implications of that. The implications that her former dogmatic self was hateful and bigoted, even though she never meant to be.
This is Hank making the same choice. And he too is going to have to deal with the implications of how he hurt not only people around him, but his own children, with his former fundamentalism.
But just like Joyce, it’s going to be an ongoing process. Just like Joyce, Hank is going to feel like things are moving too fast. But unlike Joyce, Hank isn’t allowed to be a child. He has to be the father. Not just because it’s what society expects of him, but because Joyce needs a father right now. Becky needs a father right now. And when and if Jocelyn comes out of the closet, she will need a father too.
And it’s worth noting that Hank had time to prepare for this. When he arrived at University to pick Joyce up, he had clearly been thinking about it.
When Jocelyn reveals herself to him, if she ever does, that’s going to come out of nowhere. And he might not respond well to it.
But I think he will in the end. It’s going to be rough for Hank, and realistically he’s going to make a lot of mistakes. But when push came to shove, he chose his daughter over dogma. The opposite choice of Carol, and Ross, and the other bad religious parents, who choose dogma over people.
So he’s going to screw up. But I think he’s a good dad despite that. Because he chooses people over dogma.
After reflecting on this comic for a while, I’m giving Hank only 8/10 dad points.
What he did, he did well, but points need to be deducted for not reassuring Joyce that she isn’t being pulled out of college, or at least addressing that elephant in the room.
Given what comes before, Hank is speaking about the present social situation more than anything else, and many commenters have linked this utterance specifically to Joyce’s ability to physically harm those who threaten her or her friends. But I can imagine Willis actually intending something much more general here with the last panel: Fundamentalism is born of fear, and Joyce’s moves away from Fundamentalism are demonstrations that she is less fearful of her own thoughts and interpretations than other people are. “They’re more scared than you” is really a summary of how Joyce has begun transcending her origins. Yes, Joyce, you feel scared and confused because you are in conflict with folks with whom you have previously always agreed, but you are in that position because you have moved beyond where those folks are. You’ve already shown that you’re less scared than them.
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Since she punched Becky’s dad, Does that mean the Hand wins against the toe?
1) Yes
2) You commented before Ana. I didn’t even know that was possible!
Possible, but dangerous.
People who do tend to… disappear.
“A small vacation” if you don’t mind.
They go to Billy’s.
Your presence is requested at Lake Laogai.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se
Or even if you do.
It takes a steady hand, a quick eye, a prepared comment, and foreknowledge or an accurate prediction of what will happen.
And that’s just to escape.
Escape?!? I thought you were describing how to beat this legendary Ana person to the first post!
That’s odd. I did it a few days ago, and I’m totally fi
Noooo, buttsssssss!!!
I mean, “Yessss, butts!!!” but it’s just unfortunate that butts might have been wacked. I mean, let me rephrase, I’m in favour of kinky butt spanks, but– It sucks that butts might have been gripped by a terrible fate… but no doubt a person named Fate would love gripping butts, but that’s not what I mean butts when I say butts, but when I say…
Someone see me out please, the butts are too enticing
What about iffs or andds?
No iffs! They’re too specific!
I was thinking more along the lines of ‘plugs.’
It’s good that Pie went to the cornfield.
There is no limit to what you can accomplish with pie.
Makes sense. I certainly wouldn’t pit just one of my toes against a whole hand/arm.
Are you a time traveller?
No, but I am! Sort of… it’s complicated.
She stubbed the toe, is what she did.
“Dad, it won’t protect me!”
“From what?”
“ALL THE FEELS” (⋟﹏⋞)
( ཀ͝ ∧ ཀ͝ )
(;´༎ຶД༎ຶ`)
༼つ☯﹏☯༽つ
Or my personal favorite,
;_;
;-;7
Dunno, T_T or TT_TT have more punch to it. I’m personally partial to i.i, though.
I dunno, if you look at “T_T” the wrong way, it can look like a verticle-stick eyes with horizontal “are you shitting me”-style eyebrows.
But “i.i”, though, looks amazing.
I will never unsee that.
T_T can also almost look like a certain puppet from a certain game.
Now I can’t unsee it! Cuuuuurse you!
I keep switching from liking and disliking this dad.
Also, Gravatar twin!
Those are some advanced feels.
Good Hank! What a good Hank you are. Yes you are!
Quick, scratch his belly!
Seriously he needs the belly scratches. I was so worried about this talk for so long that I want his progress to be encouraged!
Also a treat.
No! Sorry, but all treats are reserved only for PUPPY DOROTHY!
Progress? I’m pretty sure this is who he’s been the whole time.
If he keep this up there is a good chance of Joyce-hugs, so I think he’s good.
Hank is best dad <3
Admittedly, the bar is pretty low in this comic.
Well the tier list seems to be:
Good:
-Hank
Inoffensive:
-Sierra’s
-Dorothy’s
-Dina’s
-…Dana’s?
-Galasso
Tolerable/ehh:
-Joe’s
-Danny’s
-Charles
Scum/toe:
-Blaine
-Ross
There are a lot of dads.
I’d move Dina’s to “Good” if not ‘Trying”
It was unclear which parent reacted to her being in a same sex relationship with the casualness on par with “I need a new book” but it implies neither has negative feelings about it so that gets them something.
Wait, why’s Dorothy’s dad not in the “good” category? Also, Mike’s dad is (obnoxiously) nice.
how about mike’s mom?
For a nickel.
I’m GUESSING she doesn’t belong in the “best dad” category.
Unless… secretly the first trans dude of the cast?
oh wait i misread that and thought it was about parents in general!
@Cerebus Then he’s obviously not out and so it would be awful to name him in a public male-only ranking schema.
Reltzik-
True.
I’ve had Dina tagged as an introvert obsessed with dinosaurs, which reminds me of me when I was a kid almost sealed from the world with my own obsessions.
My parents were relieved full stop when I found friends. So that could be a bare minimum for Dina’s parents. That $200 seems to speak of something more than that.
Dina’s dad’s reaction is in the Patreon bonus strip for Oct-2015.
There is a noticeable positive reaction to hearing the news.
I think the Patreon strip of Dina’s parents cheering at Dina having a girlfriend warrants a spot on the good part of that list. Dorothy’s parents were pretty chill too
Sierra’s dad is great, he tried to deescalate Blaine.
True, he’s pretty chill as well; I forgot about him
Oh also Danny’s parents are emotionally abusive, Ethan’s parents are bizarre, and Sal/Walky’s parents play favourites really hard… I’d add a tier for “actively harmful” or something, just above Scum Of The Earth.
And Dorothy’s dad deliberately made a show of supporting his daughter’s decisions and dreams and that he fully believes in her while also letting her know that she doesn’t have to burn herself out chasing said dream.
And there’s Carla’s parents which 90% chance has at least one dad in it who let her borrow experimental tech just to pull a revenge prank on a transphobe and have backed her and her identity 100%.
So Hank actually has a fair spot of competition.
That said, this is him throwing his hat in the ring in a major major way.
Okay, based on NOTHING BUT your last sentence there, my headcannon is that Hank is a closet sombrero-wearer.
“… so. You finally know my terrible secret. I guess it had to happen sometime…”
I thought that was obvious.
See that part with Carla makes me a little unsure.
I wonder if they just love her so much they just sorta give her everything she asks for?
Then again, it could be they’re just supportive of who she is and her decisions that they’d bankroll any revenge scheme she has because they trust she knows who needs vengence visited upon them.
Eh, insufficient data.
Honestly, standard curve of trans parents works in their favor here. Simply being supportive of who she is and her decisions would put them far and above most trans people’s parents and be worthy of inclusion to the list.
It hurts how true that is, Cerb.
I like to them of them like Mike’s parents but with a firmer grip on reality and Bruce Wayne money.
Mostly because I like the idea of Carla trying to be an unstoppable badass prankster while her parents just smile and nod and praise Carla for her artistic creativity. That the minute Carla began to express her true gender identity they immediately did everything they could so she felt assured and expressed joy that they’ve had a daughter this whole time and were so happy to finally know. That Carla tries so hard to rebel while also knowing she has smiling, loving parents who will give her the world if she asked.
And I like it even more because it means Carla owns her flaws, rather than them being the result of outside forces, like how Sal’s super cool rebel style stems from her need to be self sufficient in the face of her parents’ neglect. With Carla, it’s all because she’s a big spoiled trust fund butthole and she throws her entire being into annoying people because that’s how Carla rolls, rather than Carla’s persona being the result of being forced into it by outside forces, it’s who she is (though the deliberate annoying I also believe is in part because of finding safety in making people hate her before they have the chance to give her shit over her gender identity).
yeah, they didn’t just cheer her on, they gave Dina money to take her girlfriend out. that’s pretty great
I took it more as excited, thankful relief that their daughter had formed a healthy emotional relationship with someone. Still, it was one of the better parental responses.
yeeeeeeeee
it was like a bright spot in a sea of parental awfulness
You’ve seen Dina’s parents, right? They’re like older versions of Dina. Like, no discernible differences.
I figured they did it more as in “oh, our daughter is dating. How nice. I think parents give money in this case.”
Problem I have is Sierra’s dad has had literally one line (and one action).
Yeah, but he made that one count.
His actions have been good 100% of the times we’ve seen him :p
What about Ethan’s? I’m not sure if he’s more scum or ehh, but I’m kinda leaning towards scum
I’d push Sierra’s up to good. He was pretty quick to get in Blaine’s way when he was chasing after Amber.
I think Amber’s mom would probably rank Joe’s dad above “tolerable”
HEYOOOO tip your waiters folks
Galasso is considered “inoffensive”?
Since this is rating Galasso as a father, only his treatment of Conquest matters. Or her and Pamela (Conquest’s mother, if I am not mistaken).
Treatment of minions and fools is another matter.
And also, this universe’s Galasso isn’t getting penalized for Shortpacked-Galasso’s misdeeds.
So the only thing we have to go by is how he has his employee daughter dress on the job?
Or how he allows her the dress code flexibility to dress, yes.
Danny / Sal’s parents; mild but distinct racism towards their own children; still care SOMEWHAT about both in non-maniac ways, but yeah.
I’d put them at “ehhhh” only because they’re nowhere near Toedad, and NOWHERE near Blaine.
Didn’t Dina’s dad (or was it mom?) send her extra spending money to take her new girlfriend out to dinner immediately after being informed that Dina had one? No shock, no time needed to think, just wholesale support for a child who has probably never been in a close friendship before, much less a romantic relationship.
That would seem to fall into the ‘good’ or even ‘great’ category. For me, at least.
Aaand I see that I’m very late to this party…
Danny’s folks I’d reserve a lot of judgement about. I see upstream some comments about mild racism, but I think this has never been seen. Just described by Sal. And perhaps grudgingly not-argued-against by Danny, perhaps because he couldn’t think of an alternative, such as their parents possibly favoring their straight-A child over the one who spent some time ‘away.’ If true that’s not great, but it’s also not Toe-dad-horrible.
But Sal I think can safely be said to have poor perceptions about a lot of people around her.
Walky, I think you mean.
While their parents haven’t done anything horribly blatantly racist on camera, there have been definite hints. And the blatant favoritism definitely goes back before Sal “spent some time away” and has in fact been set up as the reason for her actions.
The racism has not however been so blatantly stated that you can’t ignore it if you choose. Willis could actually be laying hints that Sal is mistakenly seeing racism where none exists. That this approach completely contradicts his normal approach to such issues doesn’t mean it isn’t possible.
It was definite enough that Walky had to face it.
I’m reserving judgement until I see how he reacts when he finds out he has two daughters.
His initial reaction will probably be fairly bad, but he looks like he has the potential to make a gradual incline to understanding her.
Yup. Right now he has a daughter in shock whose friend is gay. No idea how he’d react if one of his own children came out as trans.
We know that he feels badly that he and joyce-mom drove the unseen son away, so maybe he’s ready for Jocelyne?
Pretty big leap for many people, especially one whose whole life has been full of very restrictive and harmful messages about gender. A lot of people have a hard time behaving properly to their trans kids, especially at first. It super sucks. Many people are working on it. We can only hope that Jocelyne’s family will come around, she probably has the most realistic guess of how it’ll all go down.
(And by “behaving properly” I mean not being incredible horrible dangerous jerks, but, you know.) Jocelyne knows she can’t remotely count on them to be okay, so she’s making sure she’s supported and independent as possible. She has new, perhaps tentative hope that she might be able to keep being family with Joyce (and now Becky) when she finally steps out.
I think Frank just won the award for Best Dad Ever! YOU GO HANK!
Hank
TV’s Frank IS a great dad. Just ask Nummy Muffin Coocol Butter.
(I went to the MST3K reunion show tonight, so that’s the first Frank to come to mind.)
That WAS a good time.
Yes it twas. I laughed for a solid 2:15.
The Greatest Frank of All!
You lucky [word of censorable affection]. I could only gaze wistfully at the Kickstarter update.
Is the reward a 2000 inch tv? Too bad Hank isn’t Frank.
Way to go Dad!
Damn, Hank, excellent parenting there.
and all without propane or propane accessories.
I tell you what.
Dammit Bobby put that wrist brace back on,
Yehmanuhtellyuwhutmanthassomedangoodparentin.
Her dad is amazing
I’ll be more impressed when some of this good parenting takes place while others are present and awake.
OK, I want to say; “Hank for the WIN!” But this is a very good point.
OTOH, while Hank wants to support his daughter, he doesn’t want to start thermo-nuclear war either!
“Ask dad! He knows!” It’s nice to see Joyce’s father puts his daughter in front of almost everything. No wonder Joyce’s first thoughts upon noting a crisis was to ask him what she should do.
Fear of being wrong about what you thought was true can be more scary than fear that something went wrong.
Joyce, he is your father
“That’s not true! That’s impossi-actually it would explain the massive blue eyes pretty well.”
Gold star parenting, Hank.
Well, he HAS had some experience – Joyce is his fourth child, after all. he may have gotten all of his mistakes out of the way with the first three children.
Fifth. Jordan may have been disowned, but he still counts.
Oh, wait. How brothers does she have in this universe again? I lost track.
Two brothers (John and Jordan) I think, plus one sister (Jocelyne).
Thanks
Is over someone give to this guy the prize of Dad of the year.
This had better not lead to some sort of rug pull where it turns out Hank is a jerk and eats puppies or kicks babies or likes the the Unicron Trilogy more than Beast Wars or something.
He’s a closet Beast Machines fanatic. He bought Supreme Cheetor! On release! And he keeps all his toy MISB!
He liked the fourth Transformers movie.
I have I confession to make: while I was watching it, I liked the fourth Transformers movie. Then, as it ended with Optimus’s jet boots, I realized, with dawning horror, just how truly bad it is. And that’s been how I take most Michael Bay films: I like them the first time, and then the next time I think, “Oh my God I can’t believe I enjoyed this steaming pile of garbage.” The only films of his that I’ve ever really truly liked, would be “Armageddon” and “The Rock”.
I’ll spot you The Rock. But I prefer to think of Armageddon as a decent Aerosmith song with an unusually long and self-indulgent music video attached.
BayTrek 1 is a guilty pleasure. (BayTrek 2: The Theft of Khan just made me laugh at all the wrong moments.)
I hated BayTrek 1 so much I didnt even see BayTrek 2. Then all my friends who’d liked BayTrek 1 came back and told me I’d made the right call saving my money.
I’m skipping opening weekend of the new Trek movie, I’ll wait for the revievws and decide whether or not to bother based on friends’ and critics’ reactions.
The original Khan made all my friends hoot with laughter as well (but yeah, that farce of an attempt to hide the truth about Into Darkness is pretty bonkers). I’m more of a First Contact/The Undiscovered Country kind of girl, myself.
Undiscovered Country is undoubtedly my favorite Star Trek movie. First Contact was… a good action movie on its own, but it was so wildly inconsistent with the TV series that it was pretty jarring in context.
I thought that the Trek reboot was Abrams? I know that Bay is raping some of my childhood memories but I can’t pin that one on him.
… yes, dammit, you’re right.
Why the hell did my Walky grav have to get switched to a Mary grav? Now I’ve lost the gravitas needed to make a good brainfart joke.
“Armageddon” was ruined for me by the fact that it came out at the same time as a MUCH BETTER asteroid-threatens-the-Earth movie.
…. dude.
….
LIES.
….
COMPLETE LIES.
….
Comets are not asteroids.
I kinda like Téa Leoni as an actress. She never seems to be in a leading role, but she does some good supporting work.
joyce’s dad! joining the group of good dudes named hank! like hank hill! and hank schrader!
And Hank McCoy, in both furry and cantankerous versions.
the fantastic four hanks
And Hank Venture!
how many fictional hanks are there?!!?
Action Hank!
THE VERY BEST HANK
And the octopus from Finding Dory.
You mean the septepus?
Heptepus. Greek number for a Greek word.
I know that, but the joke in the movie was “septepus”. Blame Dory.
Pym’s a dick, though.
Hank Hill is a dick.
Hank Hill is a decent guy who has his own father issues, and who often manages to overcome them. Yeah, he’s anal retentive to the nth degree (and Lord knows propane is a weird thing to obsess over), but he manages to do the right thing.
(Also, according to an interview I heard on Fresh Air years ago, based in part on a neighbor of Mike Judge.)
cotton hill, on the other hand, is a giant asshole
Yeah, you can keep your propane tanks and swapping them in and out and refilling them and having the one that’s in first die in the middle of cooking and maybe you don’t have a spare and even if you do it sucks because you didn’t notice your slow cooked BBQ pork butt drop back down to room temperature and now it’ll be who knows how long until we eat.
I had a contractor run a gas line out to my grill, straight off of the same county provided natural gas that my furnace and oven/stove runs on. You have to buy a grill with the correct venturies, but that’s not a problem at any shop that is serious about selling grills.
We don’t actually know what Hank does for work right? He could be a peddler of propane and propane accessories.
This feels like the perfect thread to throw in Panic Volkushka’s ode to modern cartoon dads:
http://panic-volkushka.tumblr.com/post/144084701980/trying-really-hard-ok-panic-volkushka
When a snake bites you it’s out of fear.
Then his fear courses through your veins and become scared yourself.
Also the poisonous venom. Oh well!
Can’t you feel~~ the poison rising,
Out of the morning and clear through the night?
yesss i was just thinking of that 😀
I’m not the one who’s so far away
When I feel the snake bite enter my veins
I don’t know, Copperheads just kind of seem to be assholes.
The Mikes of the snake world?
I can now classify Hank as a Dad and not just a father.
Hank, you continue to be an excellent father. I just hope, when the time comes, you’ll be willing to stand up to your wife in support of your daughter.
Both the one you knew about all along and the one you’ll learn about in time.
😀
Yes.
That too!
All past actions aside, this strip right here shows the kind of dad I want to be if I ever have kids.
Admittedly, “having kids” is a terrifying thought, so there’s clearly a few hurdles between me and that.
Don’t worry, kids are more scare of you than you are of them!
parents in this comic tend to reinforce that
Not really, you just have a four year head start to learn how to hide your fear before they start remembering all the times you goofed up and take that sign of weakness as an indicator that they can get away with
So go on, have kids. It will be fiiiiiiiine.
That was supposed to be “get away with eating your flesh”, with “eating your flesh” being a link to this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/21/cb/b5/21cbb5f0dd1bcd89ecf1075e5735495b.jpg
….. sigh. I fail all the links ever.
Jesus Christ, that’s got to be the most realistic make up I’ve ever seen. Ok, no sleep tonight for me.
Go on, have kids. It’ll be fiiiiine.
there’s always next time reltzik
Nonono. Gadget. It’s next time, GADGET.
Okay, this may seem like damning with faint praise given the low bar achieved by Toedad and Blaine, but Mr. Brown here….best dad in this comic.
what about dad Rosenthal?
hes too busy boning
Dorothy’s, Dina’s and Sierra’s dads might be contenders too, but we haven’t seen enough of them yet.
Carla’s dad is pretty great, what with being 100% supportive of her identity.
I got scared Joyce’s arm was broken until I realized she is wearing flesh colored shirt.
Hahaha I am not funcitonal at midnight the day I gave up caffeine.
About the only thing I would suggest is to have Joyce wear the brace underneath the sleeve. That way it is not so noticeable.
Dad, that’s bears.
So Christians are…snakes? I guess?
More like wolves in sheep clothing.
Or bears.
“Son, that bear is more scared of you than you are of- oh, uh, that bear is being REALLY brave right now.”
They aren’t snakes. They just handle them in order to test God. Some of them, at least. Which the Bible distinctly tells them not do do, so I have no idea why snake handling is a thing in some cults. It’s just as screwed up as having a wife swapping Christian church. Well, maybe not, if there’s no coveting involved…
Hank is now DoA’s hottest dude. Parenting skills gets all the ladies
Dad of the Year all years!
Good advice from a parental figure? In Dumbing of Age? What sorcery is this?!
just wait, another parent will show up and do something awful
Mama bear is alone with Becky and given past history… We might not need wait long is all I’m saying.
its been a few days since we saw the sermon area, wonder whats going on there
My eyes are playing tricks on me a bit, because I originally read “sermon area” as “Sauron area” which hopefully it has not become in regards to Becky. Although, now I’m picturing fundie churches as being orcs (Tolkien’s “During the Great War, we were all orcs” comes to mind) and everything makes waaayyy too much sense.
hail sauron, father of the one ring
Oddly enough, Sauron would probably work better as an evil analogue to the Holy Spirit, as Sauron served Morgoth (formerly Melkor) who is sometimes implied to be the father of Gothmog, lord of Balrogs. Especially as he causes the fall of Numenor by converting the king and Numenorean nobility to the worship of Morgoth as the one true God with the Valar being lying spirits of great power in such a theology. Still, yours works incredibly well, and is very catchy, and so I prefer it.
Only a couple minutes have passed in the comic. Depending on how into it Carol gets she may not have even noticed yet.
We heard them singing a lot yesterday, so, not much change.
Oh God, we’re going to return to see Carol trying to “Pray the Gay away”, aren’t we?
I’m not worried about praying the gay away. Becky would meet that with accurate and insightful snark times a zillion. My worries are about some sort of format that would require Becky to stay still and silent while being eviscerated (hopefully just verbally), such as the sermon.
That is some tremendous daddery right there.
a relatively high number of doa dads, get thee to a daddery
“They’re more scared than you. Because, seriously, you sprained that wrist punching a guy twice your size so hard that he flew through the air and landed out cold under a pile of cops. They’re f-in’ terrified of what you might do to them.”
Then maybe they should stop being bigoted prickbags before Joyce fully adopts her new role as Mistress Punchout.
And they don’t even know about Joyce breaking a glass in a dude’s face!
I thought fear manifesting as bigoted prickbaggery was painfully familiar ground both in-comic and, sadly, to many of the commenters.
Yep, which is why I won’t cry when Joyce punches them. o.o
Good man, Hank.
That said, damn tumblr for my reaction to that alt text.
the only good ‘daddy’ comments are about daddy trudeau.
They’re scared of her horrific triangular mouth vortex, obviously. No men leave once they enter the hell of Joyce’s mouth.
But Ethan seems fine.
That’s because he’s gay. You have to be attracted to Joyce, at least superficially, to get sucked in. The reason Joe’s fine is because Mike was there to yank him out, but the experience scarred him. And Mike is fine because he’s Mike.
Mike is awesome because he’s Mike. Fixed that for you.
Oh hey, Hank is being awesome again. I sure hope Joyce’s mom doesn’t come in and ruin this!
(Of course she will, but it’s still a touching moment.)
That is some damn fine parenting, sir. Hats off to you.
Hank is so awesome.
This heart-to-heart is beautifully done, worth all the stress it took getting here.
http://imgur.com/a/oBpuH
Have some recent stuff. Someone saw the busts and wanted Butts, so…
DoctorK would be proud.
I was promised the battered remains of cigarettes, and this is WHAT I GET?!
“Thus spake the lord Yotomoe, and lo and behold butts were delivered unto the masses by his power. And there was much rejoicing and gladness.”
The Malayabutt and Marciebutt are awesome. Marcie noticed. Also – GO DRAGONS
Best Dad award!
This is the world we live in
And these are the hands we’re given
Use them and let’s start trying
To make it a place worth living in.–Genesis
Funny, I don’t remember that verse
Haha – I had to look it up but those are lyrics by a band called Genesis. The song is called “Land of Confusion.” Appropriate, no?
It’s weird seeing someone not know who Genesis is. And I don’t even really care for Genesis.
I remember my parents’ taste in radio music too well.
Wait a minute…do I know Genesis? Shit, when I was typing my previous comment I was thinking of a song by Phil Collins! DAMNIT!!
Well, honestly after Peter Gabriel left and they shifted from experimental prog rock to prog-ish 80s pop, they sounded a lot like Phil Collins’s solo work.
Thing is, a lot of younger people may actually recognize the Disturbed cover of “Land of Confusion” and not realize Genesis made the original version. That was the case for me about two years ago anyway.
Looks like time to get all Shortpackedy in here and bring back some ’80s:
Genesis – Land of Confusion original music video
Oh no… I’m not watching that nightmare again!
Then just groove to an extended spin sans Spitting Image puppetry.
Can’t you see this is a land of confusion?
love this song so much. and all the covers.
I am not ashamed of the tears I am currently shedding. They are the tears of the most heartwarming of feels.
[Insert Tearyeyed Agreeing Comment Here]
Hank really is looking to Joyce for guidance, too. I think she’s making him a braver man than he had been in the past, and helping him see some of the bullshit too.
Hank and Joyce embrace the values of their religion.
Carol and John regurgitate the memes.
And that is about as neat and incisive a summary of God’s Fan Club as I ever hope to see.
Save this strip for the inevitable “Why are there no nice Christian characters?” questions.
there so underrepresented, and I’m talking about in real life. I’m one but, it’s just so infuriating to hear about what the crazy Christians did now. I live my life by matthew 7: 1-4
And may I say that, speaking as a lesbian and a firm Christian, we appreciate you! <3
It’s not necessarily the numbers…but jerks tend to be loud and prominent.
This, sadly, seems to be just about universally true. At least of humans.
Seconded. Another Matthew 7:1-4 Jesus-follower here, but after all the shit I’ve seen in Christianity, I don’t really feel comfortable with the label of “Christian” tbh.
I prefer the label “Acolyte of the Way” after John 14:6.
I’m pretty much over ALL organized religion at this point in my life, whether you’re Christian, Muslim, Scientologist, or Pastafarian.
Can anyone explain how pastafariism went from satire to highlight bullshit in religion to a group acting like organized religion?
……..they’re acting as an organized religion?
In a small German town, they sued the town for not being allowed to put up signs indicating their services next to the catholic and protestant signs (hanging on public signposts) that are common. And it sounded very much like their services actually happen.
Doing this is a mostly atheist town in east Germany makes it more absurd still.
*Adds small, east German town to places where I want to go some day*
“Thou Shalt Be There For Your Kids, Dang It” isn’t a commandment, but it damn well ought to be.
Agreed. Parents owe their kids a lot more than kids owe their parents.
Oh Hank.
:`)
Joyce your fractured arm is symbol, of understanding and compassion against bigotry and stereotypes
I sing of arms and the woman…
“Clap clap”
But “arma feminamque cano Trojae qui primus ab oris” just doesn’t scan right at all.
I think that should be “…qui prima ab oris…”
Otherwise, you’re right. That doesn’t scan right.
Is there a synonym for “femina” in Latin with fewer syllables? “Mulier” doesn’t help at all.
Try “Feminae manum cano …” – I sing of the woman’s hand …
What about “pueraque”? U-e can elide for poetic meter, right?
Can I just say how awesome it is that three different people were willing to jump in and contribute to this silliness. 🙂
Love ya Hank (please don’t drop the ball)
‘Be proud of your injury. You earned it fighting the good fight.’
I give Hank a High Five! Make that a High Ten!
Option for Hank in the “Hottest Dude” poll, plz. Being one of the only good fathers (or parents in general, at times) in DoA counts for a lot.
I… I… I think I’m being attacked by onion ninjas.
defend against them with magical ninja tissues
ah jeez I had a rough day and now this comic’s making me tear up
I love Hank!
;_; thank you hank
“They’re more scared of you than you are of them.”
“Like spiders?”
“Yes, Joyce. Just like spiders.”
“So we let them live because they eat mosquitoes?”
“That’s… not quite what I was getting at…”
On a more serious note – you go, Hank! This gives me great hope that he’ll continue to stand up to Carol, and try his darnedest to reconcile his beliefs with loving and supporting Joyce and Becky.
Yeah, he may not realize the full weight of his choice to actually support his youngest daughter, but this moment is where he fully lives up to the arc he started across when he picked her up and when he supported her at the fountain and ensures he has a chance of retaining any of his daughters.
He’s really done good here today and I’m really hopeful that he’ll continue to support at least this daughter as best he can.
i have hope for him! i think he’s the best dad we’ve encountered so far, other than maybe Galasso.
Am I the only one who gets the uneasy feeling that Carol is JEALOUS of how close Hank is to Joyce and how he treats her?? Feels like that’ll explode in a bad way before it gets better.
i don’t get that vibe at all? sorry, could you explain more?
Are you saying you see something like a “you always take her side, how dare you not support me, I’m your wife, she’s just your daughter, we need to present a united front but you always undermine me” argument coming up? Because Carol’s bad, but I don’t think she’s quite that flavor of toxic.
oh wow you had the exact same thought i did.
tumblr has ruined the word “daddy”
i had the same thought
Of course it has. Why should the word “daddy” be special?
curse that bad blue website
No one else is going to say?
… I’m kinkshaming the alt-text.
You do realize that you’re just enabling it. Kinkshaming is the alt-text’s fetish. Shame on you.
*recursion singularity in 3… 2…*
Wait what? That can’t be a thing…right? I’ll be back need to confirm this.
…
Wow. Ok. So…that’s a thing.
Joyce’s dad is the real MVP <3
That hand of hers is burning red!
It’s loud roar tells her to flatten Toedads!
Damm you apostrophe-I deleted you before pressing ‘post’!
Tonight on Joyce’s Dad Earns the Audience’s Trust Back:
The moisture around my eyes is because I am reminded of my own father (80 yo in a couple of weeks). He didn’t always understand, but he was always there to support and encourage. He would point out where I was wrong, but he never judged me. He would always listen and give feedback, but he never tried to fit my thoughts into his own intellectual framework. (He has downsides too, but still 10/10 would grow up with him again 🙂 )
Yay, he sounds swell. 🙂
Comic Reactions:
Panel 2: YES! Thank you, Hank, you picked up the hint. And you made the connection to her offhand statement and why she acted so “out of character” yesterday, realizing that that’s why your daughter ran away.
And you do it not as an accusation, but as an appeal to understanding.
This is A+ dadding right here.
Panels 3 and 4: Oh fuck, her eyes are just heart-broken right there. She’s been battered and traumatized and then has been denied a lot of her processing because of all the swarms of assholes desperate to hand-wave away the horror of what happened so as to preserve the status quo of their hateful beliefs.
This is her letting herself not just be angry, but to be vulnerable. To admit how scared she feels right now in the home and the church she always thought were the safest places in the world. How terrified she is of losing her family as easily as Becky did simply because she can’t hate like she was raised to.
Those beady eyes, that thousand-yard stare hits me right in the feels, because that right there is how it feels when you bypass the sadness and the fear into the sheer abyss of everything just bursting into flames around you in triggers and pain. Joyce has so badly needed her family to understand, to love her, to treat her not as an enemy but as a scared kid who’s been through shit and needs a loving family, not a fight for her humanity.
And Bob, bless Hank, he delivers.
Panel 6: This is the line that truly encapsulates what loving support looks like:
“Never let anyone shame you for this.”
While putting on a marker that sets her out (visually) as “different”, as “damaged”, as a reminder of the dark deeds of their congregation, as a sign of heresy from what is taught as moral rightness.
For the first time, an older adult besides Jocelyne has actually reached out and told her its okay to not be the carbon copy she was raised to be. That she should not feel shame for being who she is. For supporting Becky. For losing the strength of her conviction in the Church.
And I think it might be a new moment for Hank. He’s been just as raised in the tradition of “cast out the sinner, lest their sin corrupt you”. He’s going to be subjected to all manner of whispering about how “he can’t keep a house pure” and so on.
But you can tell he’s haunted by whatever went down with Jordan, of losing connection completely, and even if he doesn’t fully understand, he knows he doesn’t want to lose Joyce either.
And who knows, maybe with time, he’ll also be ready to accept Jocelyne.
But it’s going to be hard for him. Right now, he’s doing all right on his own, but it’s another thing entirely to risk his marriage to do right by his kids and in these panels, I think he’s starting to realize the stakes that are starting to stack up.
I’m sure you’ve heard this a lot but i wanted to thank you for writing these panel by panel impressions. They really help me appreciate some of the intricacies of things that I wouldn’t have noticed otherwise. I hadn’t picked up that Joyce had taken off her brace because it set her apart so thanks for helping me appreciate all the little things a bit more
One of the things I love about media like Dumbing of Age and Steven Universe is that it rewards close reading and over-analysis by burying clues into character motivation or future arcs or just thematic little touches.
Nothing is unintentional. Everything has meaning and so it can actually be rewarding to indulge my natural inclination to go all Hernando from Sense8 over literally everything.
Oh, I love Steven Universe for that exact reason! Buffy the vampire slayer also seems to fall into that category for me as well, where tiny little things in what characters do or how they act lead to excellent intricacies in their past and what they’ll go on to do. Over-analyzing is the best!
Rule of Conservation. I believe it’s the super-trope for the assorted Chekhov’s X. It is the little touches that help bring it all together. Constantly evolving art style/ability helps as well.
Emotionally, religiously, and spiritually, I think he’s already ready to support Jocelyne.
In terms of having a clue what transgender even MEANS, he probably needs to read about fifty pages of PFLAG materials.
“Wait… I thought it was all about bathrooms? Why would they lie about… oh, right, b-words.”
I have a feeling Hank would end up saying something like “I may be confused by this at times and I may not fully understand what is happening, but I love you, and I’m going to do my best to understand and support you Jo-Jocelyne.” Which, admittedly, may still be a bit optimistic, but I feel like that is how Hank is developing as a character.
Given that my hyper left-leaning dad’s first words to me after coming out as a transwoman were, “I’m sure you think that, but…” then leaving for the night. This is someone who’d rallied for LGBT rights prior, I guess that doesn’t immunize a person from taking a “not in my house” stance.
Lucky for me he came around after two years of sandbagging the fuck out of me.
What I’m saying is that I’m still not expecting the best here.
That’s right, i recently came out as gay to my parents (worst x-mas ever) and they were super left-leaning (well, more the equivalent for that in my country) and supportive of LGBT+ causes, with friends and all and even discussing with me and my little sis why we shouldn’t be bigoted and that LBGT+ people have the same rights as everyone and all…
…Their reaction wasn’t’ bad, but i felt let down as they passed the night going on and on about they couldn’t believe this, how i couldn’t be sure of that because i am young and have never even kissed a girl, how it doesn’t add up with they know of me (everyone says that, it’s irritating) and even asking if it was their falt for not being present enougth.
I am also not expecting the best here.
Yeah. Hank may get there eventually, but Jocelyne realizes that it’s extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon. Even LGBTQ+ positive parents can have a big learning curve (I’m sorry your dad’s was steep, Apostate, and glad he came around!), and the Browns aren’t starting at a positive position. They have a very long way to go from their upbringing/environment/worldview to being safe and supportive towards Jocelyne.
This and what Apostate said.
Support for trans kids is unfortunately very rare and Hank is already starting from a disadvantage because they are probably quite literally the hot topic of the pulpit of the last few months, presented as a group of bathroom invading child-molesters.
Jocelyne fully expects that when she comes out, she is losing her entire family and especially her parents and I’d be hard pressed to actually disagree with her as that would involve a shit ton of evolution from Hank, of the type he is only just beginning now (let us not forget that the step he worked hard to reach here is being able to support his ally daughter and that took considerable work and effort on his part).
Not to mention what Apostate hinted at with even queer-affirming parents turning bigot against their trans kids. My own parents marched in support of gay rights. My dad turned to his lesbian friend for advice on what to do about his trans kid. He still wanted to send me to reparative therapy at the end of the day.
… What, like, the tiny drums?
I would just like to add that I think panel 1 is a big internal “oh no” moment for Hank, were he realizes not just why she ran away yesterday, but also how she must have felt when she came home last night. It looks like he’s really regretting saying that it “was about not loosing an argument” last night.
Yup, Hank KNOWS, far better then Joyce, just how much shit he will get for acting like a human towards his daughters (two of them so far, maybe he will get to know about the third one soon as well).
But he still does it. Well done, Hank
he’s doing such a good here for his daughter and i’m proud of him
..it’s weird. this..discovery that your home is not a home, the place where you raised your family was not as welcoming as you thought it was – it’s entirely different as an mid-life adult than it would be as a kid. i’m sure that Hank’s had to walk away from places and people before; it’d be hard not to have to do that in this society. but I bet he was hoping that he wouldn’t have to do it here.
IT’S A CALL TO ARM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHA
Way to be, Mr. B!
OMG
It just occurred to me (which I guess means I’m slow as fuck but anyway), but what if Hank has always known. What if he had his breakdown like Joyce had, and all these years he’s been aware of all the bullshit, but he just held onto his faith and his community because they’re all he has. What if Hank is Joyce version #0.1.
That…actually makes a terrifying amount of sense. And a twist like that can actually serve a purpose of explaining what separates Hank from Carol.
That is a fascinating theory and would make me oh so happy.
Ooh, that’s an interesting theory, but I feel that he might be sincere in his statement that he is following Joyce down her path as best he can, trusting in her judgment. Especially given how awkwardly he’s tried to adjust to supporting a gay person as a person compared to Jocelyne who’s a bit more “been here, done this, just packing up my bags to leave”.
At the very least I suspect his relationship with ToeDad can be seen as an analogue to his relationship with the community. Sometimes something felt so… wrong that he almost – but not really – said something.But he never did until his daughter was on the line.
Now is his chance.
His ‘do you know who else was jewish? Hitler!’ leads me to think that this growth is very recent.
This.
But I think Bagge might be on to something in that tiny things occasionally felt off to him, but it wasn’t until things started coming to a head at the fountain that he’s had to genuinely think about stuff and it wasn’t until this last weekend that he’s had to do some very fast evolution to not lose a second child.
IME, more likely is that Hank has been so insulated he’s never had to think about this stuff before – he’s never had to really think about gay people or about the dark side of his faith or whatever, because possibly he’s never known anyone before Becky who was queer and came out as someone he cares about (he has probably encountered gay people before, but they probably were not people he knew and cared for, so it was easy to write them off as seduced by Satan). Certainly, Becky is the first person he’s cared about who he tried to be accepting of.
And honestly, given his utter inexperience with gay stuff, he’s handling it pretty well. Relatively speaking.
By which I mean, he’s not going full-on Toedad, he’s making an effort to watch his language and not unthinkingly blurt out bigoted shit, and he’s not overcompensating the other way so much that he’s making this huge fawning show over Becky and how “brave” and “inspirational” she is (hi this happens to me a fair bit when I came out in meatspace after the Pulse shooting as a fuck you, I won’t hide for you bigots type of thing and yeah. Trust me, people going too far the other way is almost worse to me in terms of my comfort level than people pulling a Carol and being hateful and it’s hard to explain why but has a lot to do with how I want to be seen as a person and not put up on some pedestal of Ideal Tragic Queer).
But Hank is handling it almost too well (bigots trying to be supportive usually hit on whistle-wording of some variety and often go through a phase where they have a steep learning curve about what’s hurtful and what’s not… plus they usually first try the whole have you tried not being gay? thing and often only once it becomes apparent that not being gay is not doable do they try to come around IME – but even if they try to come around right away, it takes time and the learning curve can be painful for both sides). Which suggests to me that even though it’s his first time being accepting of something like this, it’s not his first time being through something similar, and he took the lessons of previous mistakes to heart.
… And after that realization, I am wondering what the odds are are that Jordan’s estrangement is for a similar reason. And because speaking in depth about Jordan seems verboten, I am wondering whether he is the first of the Brown queer kids to come out, and if that’s why Jocelyne seems to be bracing herself for losing most, if not all, of her family when she does come out and so certain that there is a 0% chance that family will win out over faith for her parents.
OTOH, we haven’t actually seen much of Hank supporting Becky directly. He’s talked to Joyce about it a little and we’re seeing him support her, but still not really addressing Becky’s gayness directly.
I suspect that kind of conversation would bring out a lot of the awkward painful learning curve.
And he’ll need that with Jocelyn when that blows up.
I also think Hank’s the compromiser and peacemaker. He’ll try to help and support whoever he’s talking to, but not push confrontation. Unlike both Joyce and Carol. He’s managed to avoid any direct confrontation or having to choose sides between the two,but that’s not likely to last. That’ll be his real moment of truth.
thejeff-
That’s more of the vibe I get off Hank.
Like, he wants to be supportive and follow Joyce’s lead, but he’s working from one hell of a deficit and so his form of support has just been not actively adding bigotry to Becky’s plate.
However, he also hasn’t really done much to show her direct love and support. There’s been no active direct harm, which puts him far and above most of the other Browns outside his daughters, but there’s also been nearly zero direct conversations with Becky. No real check-ins to see if she’s okay. Not even much in directly speaking up on her behalf on the kitchen table outside of his usual peacekeeper shtick.
Like, he’s kinda compensated for the awkwardness of his personal growth by just not engaging personally with Becky much of all, instead focusing almost entirely on Joyce. And his comments when she got home last night suggest he’s still prone to viewing Becky as some sort of corrupting sinful figure.
Which, makes sense, he’s used to viewing gay people as being equivalent to Satanic minions and not actively hating them is requiring some fast evolution:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/humility/
But he seems to be mostly handling that awkwardness by almost minimizing Becky the person and I know a lot about that sort of “support” and how alienating that can feel.
Sadly, that’s also the part he’s going to have to grow and evolve on if he’s going to be a good dad to his other daughter, but this comic gives a good hint that he might at least be willing to try.
Addendum-
I’m still very proud of Hank today and I think he’s on a very good path. I’m just noting how new this path is and that he’s got a long journey left on it. Especially to get to a point where he’d not only be ready to “tolerate” Jocelyne’s existence, but actually support her.
The vibe I get off of Hank is actually very similar to my Father-in-Law, and how his initial attempts to understand his son was gay have been described to me. He’s an incredible, loving, open-hearted man, and is almost embarrassing in his demonstrations of love for my husband and myself. But it was a tangled awkward progress to get him to that point from the initial coming out.
I do think Hank is trying hard, and I do think Hank will successfully grow from all this. Whether it’s enough to love his -other- daughter, or whether he’s able to bring his wife along on the same journey…
Well, my mother-in-law barely acknowledges my existence, so… It’s not a given.
But I’m hopeful.
Weird, I got the opposite impression from this comic. Hank is hardly doing this for the first time – don’t forget that Joyce is his fourth child, and that at least one of his previous children (Jordan) has faced a ‘crisis of faith’ with them, now. (It’s possible that Joss has, as well, but simply pretends that he’s dealt with it differently.) I get the impression that Hank and Carol dealt with Jordan’s crisis very differently, and that it has led to their estrangement. Hank is now trying a gentler approach with Joyce, and is doing it without his wife’s input – because, I imagine, she would not be OK with it. Hank is hesitant and fumbling because he is trying to learn from his past mistakes. He’s also trying to do it without ruining his place in his community, or his relationship with his wife. He is very much the “don’t upset the apple cart” type, but he does care.
Hank has always known that human systems are trash fires. That’s why he has moved around from church to church.
Favorite recent article – https://medium.com/@monstro/all-human-systems-are-enormous-trash-fires-30b9de6fa603#.84zjmi9hd
Once you recognize that all human systems are enormous trash fires, you stop trying to figure out how to switch to a system that isn’t an enormous trash fire, since they don’t exist. Instead, you ask better questions about your current trash fire. Like, “Am I doing everything I can to contain this enormous trash fire, even though I know it will never go out?” “Do the people in charge recognize that this whole place is an enormous trash fire?” And, most importantly, “Am I surrounded by a team of firefighters or a team of arsonists?”
This church is arsonists.
Bless you, Willis.
Yay for being a decent person ?
How do you live with someone for 18 years and not know who they are?
Joyce’s obliviousness rivals Danny’s.
But Hank’s not someone, he’s her Dad. Those you love, you tend to see in only s certain way.
Are you criticizing an 18-year old for not knowing every little dirty detail of her parents?
Like, I’m sure at least half of the past 18 years was spent not learning anything meaningful about them.
Not every little dirty detail, but you should at least have a general idea. I know my mother is jealous and insecure. My father is controlling, manipulative but fun loving. To go this long not realizing they’re not always in agreement, that in certain situations one or the other, both or neither might be more likely to support you boggles my mind.
The only things I can think are: 1. Maybe Hank and Carol always presented a united front to their kids, only disagreeing behind the scenes. 2. Joyce seemed when she first came to college to believe most of the stuff her parents and church taught, and to be someone who followed the rules pretty closely. It’s possible that she didn’t often go against what her parents believed, so she might not have had much opportunity to see how Hank reacted to rebellion as opposed to Carol.
Joyce had a pretty darn polyanna view up until the start of the comic. She didn’t know any of the dark sides to anything. (Except for made up dark sides about things she didn’t really know.)
Iunno, given how much her family and her faith and her image of what families SHOULD look like are all intertwined and braided together into one big thing…
It doesn’t surprise me at all to think that she was encouraged to think her family was perfect and functional, and that she was lucky to be part of it.
You know that saying, you don’t know what you’ve got ’til it’s gone? That applies to familial dysfunction and emotional abuse, too. It’s not until you start to see the world from a different perspective that you can really understand how messed up things were back home.
A lot of folks from those sorts of cultures believe very strongly that children should be kept ignorant of the fact that arguments and disagreements happen in marriage.
Like, I was in my 20s before I discovered that when I’d been getting bullied horribly and was getting beaten up on the daily and begging my parents to pull me from school, my father had wanted to send me to a private school to get me out of the place where a kid could punch me in front of the teacher and I’d be the one who got in trouble.
But to my face during that whole time, it was a lot of I had to go back, home schooling was not an option, and I wasn’t allowed to be a “coward” by “running away” from my “problems.” Cuz my mother won the argument, and united front and all that.
It’s entirely possible that Joyce’s parents never let her see the inner workings of the marriage.
*hugs*
I feel a lot more parents could stand to model for their kids that healthy disagreements is a natural part of any relationship. And let them see all parts of that, including the communication surrounding issues.
Cause I feel that “united front” garbage so often just sends the message that if you have disagreements later in life with partners its because there’s something wrong with you. And it creates situations like this where one can think their parent actually didn’t support them or did support them when in fact the reality was the opposite.
Eh. It’s really easy to assume your parents are one way until you find the border of their conditional support.
Like, to Joyce, she was raised in nothing else but her family and church and being told that her family was a perfect model of how families were supposed to be. And sure, yeah, her brother stopped coming around, but her parents always made a big deal about how much they loved him and it was just known that Jordan was just too Jordan to really come out and be out.
It’s really only been in the last month that she’s been allowed to experience the world itself and meet the sort of people to make her question how she was raised and that has come with only just now stumbling on points of disagreement with her parents and standing up for her friends against them on certain issues.
And in so disagreeing, she’s found out a lot about how her parents actually are. Like, she’s found out that her mom’s love is toxic and based more on her internal image of herself as a glorious servant of Christ and her faith than any actual regard for her children. She’s found out that her dad is kinda milquetoast and shies away from conflict. She’s learned for the first time that the united front they’ve always presented because “that’s what healthy families do” is actually built by a lot of behind closed doors arguing.
She’s learned that her parents and church can be wrong.
And that’s a thing. It’s hard to realize toxicity when you’re smack dab stuck in it. I went over 25 years believing my parents were supportive and awesome because I hadn’t come out as trans yet and they weren’t as visibly awful and fucked up as the families of my friends and romantic partners.
It’s taken the last couple of years to fully realize the extent of the conditionality of their support, the nastiness and manipulative cruelty of my dad, the cowardice of my mom, the drunken bigoted judgment of my uncle, that the tiny little comments here and there between the grand statements of liberalism and support were actually red flags of their bigotries and prejudices, that my dad’s acts of abuse growing up weren’t actually the “little things” I made them out to be.
I feel that might just be a rite of passage for anyone dealing with toxic or abusive home environments. Reaching that point of clarity where you realize just how bad what you’ve escaped actually was.
This. See also why I was 24 before it hit me how fucked certain things my folks did were.
there are a ton of examples of this in this thread but, like. i think sometimes you can care about something so much that you find it impossible to take any criticism of it? or at least not to take that criticism personally? idk that’s different for people and situations but not all of us get to see construtive criticism as a necessary part of growth, haha. sometimes it gets turned into an all or nothing game where either you’re one hundred percent for the thing or one hundred percent against it. that’s a false equivalence, but sometimes accepting that things are flawed is hard.
for me personally, the way that my family was structured admitting failure or mistakes or even disagreement was practically impossible. I got consistently shafted because of my parents’ decisions but I was supposed to just put on a smile and take it because Family; and then when my sister really had struggles it was always framed as her unreasonability. which: my sister is hella stubborn and doesn’t know how to pick battles, but all her emotions were and continue to be super valid.
it’s only in the last couple of years that I’ve started realizing how much work I put into trying to maintain my family’s emotions?? trying to smooth things over and out, keep things from bubbling up to a breaking point. we were so co-dependent and miserable with each other, continually. it took getting out to get perspective and to really start building myself up as a person separate from that. and my family’s bullshit is continuing to be my family’s bullshit, but it’s not my problem anymore, hahahaa.
anyways the point i’m making is that for years i could never acknowledge that maybe what my parents had been doing was even a tiny bit screwed up because that would mean that they were wrong about something and they couldn’t possibly be wrong!! not when they always told me how wrong i was and how right they were. 🙂 🙂 🙂
They’re kids. It happens. It happens a LOT.
I’m willing to forgive it. (To a point.)
I didn’t figure out that my dad was a toxic a-hole until I got to college. I had to get outside that sphere to really see what was happening and why I hurt.
This. *hugs*
It took coming out to my dad… hell, really coming out to my uncle to realize what a toxic manipulative abusive piece of shit my dad was and what was at the heart of a lot of earlier actions on his part.
Sometimes you need a wakeup call, either in the form of seeing alternative models of what “normal family” looks like or them doing something so transparent it makes all their subtlety come into focus.
Look at how much Joyce has changed in the last couple months. She’s always thought both her parents were loving and supporting because she never really crossed them. And always trusted parents (and especially dads) in general because she did trust hers. Now she’s seen how badly wrong that can go and how wrong her upbringing was about so many things. Dads can be monsters. Her mother can support the monster. Her church can be the source of that pain. And her dad is a part of all that.
How can she be expected to easily still trust him when everything else she believed in is collapsing around her.
It looks like she might actually be able to, but he’s going to have to earn it.
Okay, he’s being decent. But, now, the next step is, realizing that they’re afraid, to make *them* realize that they’re afraid.
You can’t make a person self aware. That can only come from within. You can try to ease their fear, with patience and compassion.
Joyce needs hugs, Hank needs a high-five, and I need tissues.
You should be able to look at your father like that, and get a response like that.
AWWWWWWWWWWWW
In case anybody wants to see the referenced overheard conversation for a refresher, you can find it here!
I think, for a moment, Hank can squeeze Joyce here. I know I’d do that. No child should ever feel this pain.
…the day after tomorrow, Hank’s got a very concerned look on his face.
What happens tomorrow?
Awwwww….
Now though I’m wondering if Hank will get in trouble for walking out himself or his future actions in defence of his daughter, being accused of putting family before Jesus. (Oh such a terrible crime!)
(I remember like many times at church being told you were to put Jesus first above everything, including other people, /everyone/ even your parents (or kids). Though you could put other people before yourself! Man that was a source of a lot of emotional problems for me as a kid. The story of Issac and Abraham messed me up. Though I much prefer what I have been told is an occasional Jewish interpretation- that Abraham was wrong as god never speaks to him directly afterwards- never heard a christian interpret it that way ever.)
I’ve never been able to preach this text without saying, “Abraham was wrong!” Unless you read some stuff into this (like he was expecting G_d to intervene – there is a little textual evidence for it) we have to say – as the entire rest of the Bible says! – that it’s not ok to sacrifice your kids for religious reasons.
From a non-religious, more sociological view, that text is easy to understand: It’s a justification for not practicing human sacrifice, like many other religions of the time.
Theologically, it’s a lot more difficult.
Naw. The same explanation works for a theologicalreason. Abraham proves he’s just as dedicated to his God as the others are to theirs by being willing to do what God says, but God establishes that such a thing is not necessary or proper, and that there is an allowable substitute.
We’re talking about a theocracy. It’s often difficult to separate sociology and religion in those situations.
Ardie Bee: I find the “Abraham was wrong” idea intriguing. I guess you don’t mean he was wrong about what God said, as that’s given explicitly in the text. So then the idea that he actually failed the test God gave him. That he was supposed to argue with God like Moses did.
I’ll have to look into that interpretation. I’m really only familiar with the one thejeff stated and the one given in New Testament book of Hebrews, which, while a later book, I’ve always assumed was informed by Jewish thought at the time (given the context and intended audience).
The problem with that theology is the confirmation that it would be necessary and proper had God wanted him to do so. That being willing to so at God’s command is a Good Thing.
The idea that he actually failed is more tempting to me, but I don’t think it’s well supported. That disobedience to God can be a good thing in some cases is more of a modern notion. Much like the idea that God wanted Adam & Eve to “rebel” and eat the apple as a way of maturing and leaving the nest.
It all fits nicely with some more modern ideas of God as the parent who wants His human children to grow up and become independent, but not well with earlier theology.
You who build these altars now
to sacrifice these children,
you must not do it anymore.
A scheme is not a vision
and you never have been tempted
by a demon or a god.
You who stand above them now,
your hatchets blunt and bloody,
you were not there before,
when I lay upon a mountain
and my father’s hand was trembling
with the beauty of the word.
Tips for Leonard.
I suspect he will get in trouble for it, in similar ways to Joyce currently getting in trouble for it. “Defying God” by defending the “sinful” tends to be very frowned on in those communities. And it is much better for a family to casually disown a “sinful” child than to embrace their “evil” without trying to save them to the Church.
And he’ll get even more shit once Jocelyne comes out and the church gossip mill gets all fired up over that.
Let’s kinkshame the hover text
…OK, hank can stay.
I love you, Hank!
You know, I really like what Hank did here, and I’m glad to see some decent parenting happening in a context where it can’t be guaranteed. But I’m really sad that what should be normal and completely unexceptional is making people so very very happy.
One of the unhappy facts of my life is the enthusiasm with which my friends tell their own male partners about how I look after my children and do laundry and mop floors and cook and… just generally try to pull my weight as someone who lives in the same house as the rest of my family!
I’m glad Hank’s done it right (and Willis, you’re rehearsing your own parenting here, yeah?) but I’m sorry that so many of us see so little of this that it feels like wonderful parenting. This needs to be the norm, not the exception.
Hank confirmed to be in the running of the Not A Garbage Dad Awards.
Damnit Hank! You’re over here giving Rock (MGMT) a run for his money as best Webcomic dad!
what a good dad. What a legitimately good dad. I’m so happy for her right now.
Oh, Cheese. I just decided to go back and read DOA from the beginning, and Becky saying goodbye to Joyce in the, what, fourth or fifth strip just about broke my heart, after seeing all that’s happened 🙁
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/forget/
also the last panel in that comic makes it look like Joyce has a boner.
Damn you comments section! I can never unsee this now!
That panel actually got a call-back when Becky came out to Joyce:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/sleepover/
I’m so proud of them right now.
Hank does a great job here, but he still has to address the fact that he and Carol has placed theselves among the “they” that Joyce are scared off.
They HAVE given their daughter reasons to be afraid of them, and they very soon have to change that course or risk loosing her.
True. Judging by Joyce’s face in the last panel, she could still use some reassurance on that front. Some sort of confirmation that Joyce won’t get taken out of school for continuing to support Becky would probably help.
Yeah, making that specific support explicit would be very important to reducing her anxiety on the matter. Like, this is very comforting and implies that support well, but it would be a nice touch to state unequivocally that he won’t be taking her out of college just for growing as a person.
N’aww.
That’s genuinely heartwarming. Well done, Hank. Dad points for you. You done good on the parenting thing here.
What DOES it prove about them? I’m not being argumentative, I honestly can’t figure it out.
Or is it, like ‘we’re fallible and vulnerable’?
She got that injury standing up to a bully. A bully they agree with. So it proves she stands for what’s right when they don’t. That’s the way I see it anyway.
Alternative: They know that they should have stood up to Toe, but didnt, whereas Joyce did, and they’re ashamed. Perhaps there’s some in both camps?
Alt 2: they don’t want to accept that their beloved faith could lead people to act like ToeDad. That seems to be the message he was going for in that song earlier.
they’re scared of change and that they might be wrong
the way hank talks about them makes them sound like woodland creatures or something where “you don’t have to be scared of them because they’re more scared of you than they are of them!” but while deer might eat your plants they’re also gonna run away when you come near, and i don’t think these people are gonna do that
idk you could maybe tie that in with Carol’s comment from a few strips ago about wanting Hank to get a gun to shoot squirrels, but that’s a bit of a reach
I don’t know the implications this has on the metaphor, but if you’re not in a car, deer are really not all that afraid of you. And if you get too close to one, it will eff your ess right up. Like, people die from deer attacks.
i need to up my deer lore, clearly, i’d forgotten that that happens! most of the ones where i used to live would run away as soon as they spotted us. i mean, there was that one time one ran right into our car, but it bounded away after that and we never saw it again. but i don’t think those facts do bad things for the metaphor – like real woodland animals, if you get too close to these people and they see you as a threat, they will wreck you up.
This may be me but I wonder how long Hank has been trapped in a congregation of jerks that he can’t respect for (or so he sees it) the sake of his marriage and family?
I get the vibe that he’s used to assuming that the jerks were few and far between (Toedad) and that comic where he’s overhearing the gossip is the first he’s genuinely been paying attention to the nasty rumors and gossip and realizing how fucked they are.
Given that they changed churches several times , I think Hank has been trapped in that congregation (A) not long and (B) his entire life.
And I fail links forever again. Let’s try that once more.
Given that they changed churches several times because of b-words, I think Hank has been trapped in that congregation (A) not long and (B) his entire life.
Argh. Okay, I’m trying to link THIS, okay?
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/02-choosing-my-religion/avoid/
StupidtechnologyalwaysdoingwhatIsayinsteadofwhatImean…
If I remember correctly, they keep changing churches when they find the congregation insufficiently spiritual. Now I’m thinking Carol makes those decisions.
It’s possible other churches were better in this regard, but Carol didn’t like it or didn’t care.
Uplifting.
Hank you’re awesome.
*only just sees alt-text on desktop* welp, getting some bleach now
(not so) Fun fact: The same hand that’s currently in a brace is the same hand that was cut when she glassed the douchebag
It’s her trauma hand, where she accumulates all her trauma.
Well, I mean, Joyce is right-handed, so it makes sense that that’s the hand she usually uses for smiting.
Also drawing dingdongs.
Also, handling other-Jacob.
Well crap..
They’re going to get in an accident and her dad’s doomed
Well shit now that you’ve called it Mr. Downer.
That guy Hank?
That guy’s alright. Probs still working on himself like Joyce is, but he’s alright.
I think it’s safe to say Joyce is a Daddy’s girl. Which is probably for the best, if she took after her mother she may have ended up being a bit more like Mary.
It used to be anything resembling her definition of Sin would cheese her right off into a righteous temper tantrum. Now Joyce seems to only get upset when people go after her friends or if her religious foundations get questioned.
She may be a Daddy’s Girl, but she takes after her mom too. She’s definitely got the judgmental angry thing, which we’ve never seen even hints of from Hank. She’s just got a lot of empathy to go with it, which (after a bit of learning and prompting) points that anger and judgment in better directions.
I think the distance from family has helped with the judgmental attitude. Again, it seems more focused on defending her belief’s foundations and her friends.
Beginning of DoA Joyce would’ve tried to rip apart Becky and Ethan for their attractions. That was one of the first real prejudices to fade.
Oh yeah. She’s changed drastically, but the anger and defiance are still there. They’ve just changed targets. She’s still not doing the peacemaker/conciliation thing her dad does. She’s still all righteous fury when she sees a wrong – she’s just got a better sense of what the wrongs are.
Fair enough. I prefer that actually. Joyce is a passionate gal, her losing said passion (which is what fuels her anger) would be removing something from her.
I’d still argue she’s got more Hank in her persona though. Her gut instinct is more like her Mom, per her hiccuping freak outs, but she seems to keep a level head beyond that.
also that, when Joyce needed help re: her sexual assault, it wasn’t the church that helped her out? it was her friends on the floor. and like – there’s this thing, where you know if you talk about it to certain people that you’re never going to live it down, and they’re never going to accept you. even though it wasn’t your fault, you’re never going to be the same to them. when even the police can’t help her find justice, what help is she going to get from her family? it’s probably why Joyce hasn’t talked about it at all to them – she’s no longer “pure”. I mean, there really isn’t a positive narrative for reclaiming yourself after sexual assault in the church. but the dorm floor is the first place where she hasn’t had to live up to any standards except her own, and I think that was probably freeing for her.
To be fair, that was the best group to go to immediately. Parents would’ve taken her out of school, which she did not want, and the Church was back at her home town, not at college. Even still I’d see her going to her friends first anyways if she could not speak with her parents/ family. Younger people tend to not have a relationship built up with their Pastors after all, they’re typically just the guy who give Sunday sermons. Maybe the youth pastor, but friends still probably trump that.
That’s typically NOT how a church should work, by the way. Something like sexual assault, that’s a serious – private- matter. Typically something like that is handled with discretion, not publicly to the whole congregation. Unless the Pastor is a gossip king of course – which is typically a sign to go find new roots elsewhere. No, typically Pastors just put you in touch with a closed net support group – inside the Church or outside it.
And actually Joyce didn’t go to anyone. She hasn’t revealed it to anyone, right. Just those who were there or who stumbled into the morning after meeting.
And Becky later on, but Joyce couldn’t tell her, but pushed Sarah into doing it.
They’ve supported her, but she’s mostly been in denial refusing to deal with it at all.
these are all great points
hahahaah welp now i have absolutely positively no reason to be worried about this coming up in this current plot arc but i still feel concerned as heck
Thank you Willis, on a day when a hug isn’t possible I needed this.
I trully was expecting this to happen, I’m glad that it turned out that way
love those eyes
I really don’t see anything wrong with Hank as a father.
He’s a good good father.
Like a lot of families, I bet Carol had more to do with Joyce’s upbringing than Hank. Especially if Carol was a stay at home mom, one who home schooled and wouldn’t let Joyce ride her bike around the block until she was 16. Proper gender roles and such, which is to say, like most families of 50 years ago.
But Hank knows his role. He is there to comfort and walk with Joyce in her troubles. Daddy? Abba maybe. More support and love with fewer conditions than she expected. Hank’s not perfect, but he’s trying. Can we really ask more of him? Hard to fault him so far.
Hank may be taking the family to a new church next week. Jonathan and Carol won’t like that.
Carol being the homeschooler would trump Hank’s influence no matter what – more time with her kid after all. However Hank does not seem like a distant father, so I would imagine any time he WAS home from work was spent with kids and Carol. He just seems more invested with Joyce then I would expect from the traditional model (Which my mind conjures up Don Draper as an example of. Distant, more concerned about the newspaper then his kids.)
I love this comic so much. And this arc is so good!
For those of us who don’t remember exactly what was said yesterday morning (from the end of February!):
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/squeezing-2/
Hank is what we in the industry call a ‘badass dad’.
There is an industry for supporting your daughter during a crisis of faith?
Yeah, SYDDACAFI for short. Tends to invite a lot of tissue manufacturers to the trade shows.
one time they had taylor swift play and they almost ran out
One time they gave out thematic clocks, oh my gods it was so terrible, every hour was a different theme. “What’re we waking up to today? EXISTENTIAL CRISIS OVER HEAT DEATH OF THE UNIVERSE! Ah, that one’s a classic.”
Eh…I’m kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Sure, Hank has been awesome here. On the other hand, he apparently willingly joined the movement, married Carol, and contributed to raising his kids to stay in the lifestyle.
Best-case scenario, he’s a good guy who’s been too browbeaten by Carol and keeps his good side quiet, using it in private conversations with Joyce rather than make a public stand for good. Worst-case scenario, he lets Joyce think he’s on her side, only to let her down when sh*t really hits the fan.
Yeah, I kind of hate to rag on one of the better dads. But Joyce is a little too autobiographical for me too…
Hank is referencing the congregation, but he’s talking about Carol too.
Rule one of being a spouse: you do not bad mouth your significant other behind their back. That’s grounds for some good old couch sleeping.
Unless the couch is the more comfortable surface.
Yeah, there’s a lot of parents who’ll back up the more abusive one. Or just stand aside.
But, uh, that’s… that’s actually a pretty major violation of literally all of the rules of being a parent. And unrelated to any rules of being a spouse.
I think we’re seeing now where Joyce gets some of her very best qualities–that propensity to choose love for people over faith in doctrine every time, her intolerance of b-words and the s-word they pull. Her kindness and default state of love for other people.
She’s learned a lot pretty recently about how to unfold that love, and what’s really part of kindness and what’s bigotry masquerading as it. But those are the things–kindness, love for other people–she holds most dear, and I think this here is why.
Not sure where Hank stands on the poll for best parent in DoA, but he’s definitely the one who’s had the most development in the right direction.
there’s a prize for Most Improvement, right?
So this is about Joyce and the focus needs to be on her. But since most of the focus in these comments is on here, I feel comfortable focusing on Hank.
Remember: Hank was as fundamentalist as Joyce was at the beginning. This is all new to Hank as well. Look back a few comics ago when he overheard the pious jerks talking about Becky. Look at his expression. That’s hitting him hard. That’s not just hearing a random group of assholes. That’s him looking in the mirror, and seeing himself. Who he was. Knowing that if it wasn’t Becky, JOYCE’S Becky, someone he was personally connected with, he might have been part of that conversation. Probably not the one leading it, but a participant, silently nodding his head, and thanking God that HIS daughter turned out RIGHT.
The amazing thing about Hank is that now that he’s confronted with this, now that it is his daughter, and his daughter’s best friend, now that it’s happening to him, he’s changing. He’s realizing. It’s a shame it took him until something affected him personally. But at least now that it does, he’s changing.
Joyce had her moment, when Becky first arrived. Joyce had the moment where she was confronted with her friend’s well-being, or with what she had been taught. And she chose, in that moment, to believe her friend was right, and good, and valuable, whatever the teachings of her religion says. And then Joyce had to deal with the implications of that. The implications that her former dogmatic self was hateful and bigoted, even though she never meant to be.
This is Hank making the same choice. And he too is going to have to deal with the implications of how he hurt not only people around him, but his own children, with his former fundamentalism.
But just like Joyce, it’s going to be an ongoing process. Just like Joyce, Hank is going to feel like things are moving too fast. But unlike Joyce, Hank isn’t allowed to be a child. He has to be the father. Not just because it’s what society expects of him, but because Joyce needs a father right now. Becky needs a father right now. And when and if Jocelyn comes out of the closet, she will need a father too.
And it’s worth noting that Hank had time to prepare for this. When he arrived at University to pick Joyce up, he had clearly been thinking about it.
When Jocelyn reveals herself to him, if she ever does, that’s going to come out of nowhere. And he might not respond well to it.
But I think he will in the end. It’s going to be rough for Hank, and realistically he’s going to make a lot of mistakes. But when push came to shove, he chose his daughter over dogma. The opposite choice of Carol, and Ross, and the other bad religious parents, who choose dogma over people.
So he’s going to screw up. But I think he’s a good dad despite that. Because he chooses people over dogma.
All of this, right down to there being a lot of hope for him because he’s valuing people over dogma.
Hmmm.
After reflecting on this comic for a while, I’m giving Hank only 8/10 dad points.
What he did, he did well, but points need to be deducted for not reassuring Joyce that she isn’t being pulled out of college, or at least addressing that elephant in the room.
only so much dialogue in these few panels, lets see how this unfolds before we distribute dad points.
But hey, 8 outta 10 ain’t nuthin’ to sneeze at! (Why am I typing like this all of a sudden?)
Fair enough, I’ll happily bump him to 10/10 if he gets there by the end of the conversation.
“They’re more scared than you.”
Given what comes before, Hank is speaking about the present social situation more than anything else, and many commenters have linked this utterance specifically to Joyce’s ability to physically harm those who threaten her or her friends. But I can imagine Willis actually intending something much more general here with the last panel: Fundamentalism is born of fear, and Joyce’s moves away from Fundamentalism are demonstrations that she is less fearful of her own thoughts and interpretations than other people are. “They’re more scared than you” is really a summary of how Joyce has begun transcending her origins. Yes, Joyce, you feel scared and confused because you are in conflict with folks with whom you have previously always agreed, but you are in that position because you have moved beyond where those folks are. You’ve already shown that you’re less scared than them.
I definitely interpreted it as “change scares them” rather than “they’re scared you might punch ’em”.
Scaredy cats!
great now I gotta kinkshame willis
Humanizing your parents is one of the craziest/scariest/most revelatory parts of growing up.
Way to capture coming of age in a .jpeg, Willis!
If they’re so scared, why aren’t they having PTSD flashbacks?
If we ever have a conversation between Joyce, Hank and Jocelyne we will have Beautiful Blue Eye Overload and we all will explode.