That’s right, the adorable mouse-children movie where multiple people die and we get to witness the horrible late 19th century racism and depravity of Europe and America.
My childhood was haunted by nightmares featuring the Owl from Secret of Nimh, the demonic dragon thing from All Dogs go to Heaven, Sharptooth, and the Giant Mouse of Minsk.
Needless to say, when Bluth started crowdfunding to get the Dragon’s Lair movie off the ground, I couldn’t open my wallet fast enough.
Wait, characters died in that series? I don’t remember that. I do remember adorable mouse race-relations, and that lady-cat’s perfume. Guess I’ll have to watch it again as a grownup…
Thank you indeed Don Bluth! At least when his themes are horrifying they’re horrifying for LOTS of interesting reasons and not just “This girl is underage” a la Disney. Which is a nice effect of not pulling 1000% of your source material from centuries-old fairy tales.
Disney pulled his sorce mat’l from his head and elsewhere: he surely did not follow the original fairy tales.
Those originals were written to teach a morale in as gruesome a way as possible.
Cinderella’s stepmother ended up dancing at her wedding while wearing iron shoes on a bed of hot coals.
He prettied up her suffering under that stepmother and ended up having her saved by a prince-Heaven forbid she could save herself because of the code of her environrment.
Watch Disney’s Fantasia while you’re high. You’ll remember the dragon – devil unwrapping his wings off the mt. top, if you remember nothing else.
No fairy tales were cute little fun bed time stories. They were meant to teach kids to survive in the world and society.
Saw that in the theatre as a wee child – my very first movie. I love the tune of Night on Bald Mountain, but I still cannot forget that demon/devil scene.
Uhm–seriously don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love Disney films. I just like Bluth also. 🙂 But you seem to be confirming exactly the point I was trying to make. Disney prettied up the suffering of the protagonists in his films versus their original darker source material and that’s why Bluth ended up becoming more interesting to me. It wasn’t so watered down. It was gritty.
“Watch Disney’s Fantasia while you’re high. ”
LOL way ahead of you. I love the Night on Bald Mountain sequence. Interestingly a lot of the artists who worked on the pastoral sequences were later mortified at how little justice they’d done the original classical scores. They thought they were making high art, but came to view it as embarassingly gauche and tacky looking back at it later. Which is a shame, I liked those sequences the most as a small child because UNICORNS AND PEGASI AND CENTAURS
I will buy MOST of what you’re saying. But don’t lay the “she needed a prince to save her, she couldn’t save herself” card on Disney. The old fairy tales constantly had the prince saving the girl. I remember one where the girl had to gather thistles and weave shirts for her brothers who’d been changed into swans. She was warned that she couldn’t speak to anyone or the spell would not be broken. The people got it into their heads that she was bewitched somehow and sent for the prince. He decided if she wouldn’t speak, he would have her executed as a witch. At the last minute, on the chopping block, she finished up MOST of the shirts and put them on her swan brothers (one sleeve wasn’t finished and that brother kept a wing for the rest of his life – thanks prince) THEN she told the prince everything that was happening and the prince asked for her hand in marriage. “Sure, you rushing my work so one of my brothers will have a wing for an arm for the rest of his life and you almost killing me for the crime of NOT TALKING is of no consequence at all! I’ll be happy to marry you!”
I wasn’t saying that’s exclusive to Disney in the slightest. I was saying that if the Disney machine took your fairy tale, by the time they were through with it the darkness of the original would have been watered down considerably to make it more ‘palatable’ for a modern audience. Bluth didn’t do that so much. Till he gave up and did. And then we got Thumbelina.
I still think that Don Bluth is the reason that to this day, I prefer a tear-jerker movie to a comedy or romance movie.
The first several movies I saw in theaters were by Bluth, not Disney. The Disney Renaissance started in 1989 with The Little Mermaid. I was only 6 at that time, but I’d already seen several Don Bluth movies, had a few on VHS, and had Fievel as my ever-present imaginary friend by the time Ariel came in to my life.
I certainly grew up on Disney, and feel fortunate that I was in the generation able to grow-up with the Disney Renaissance, but it’s Bluth’s movies that made me love animation, movies, and art. They were certainly dark as far as children’s movies go, but it liked that about them. There was a real sense of danger and that maybe, just maybe, everything wouldn’t turn out alright in the end. That made the movie more exciting and enjoyable to me.
I love Disney movies – Don Bluth’s work, for the most part, I don’t think I’ve even seen (apart from the first one or maybe two of the Land Before Times).
One of my top animated movies of all time though?
Rankin-Bass’ “The Flight of Dragons”. For it’s animation, it’s storytelling, it’s characterisations, action scenes, and the fact that characters DO genuinely die (although magic brings some back in the coda), it is my fave.
And another one is “The Princess and the Goblin”, again for many if not all of the same reasons as above. 🙂
(I also own and love all the Disney animated movies) 😀
The sequels to the Land Before Time weren’t directed by Bluth at all. The original Land Before Time is the only one that counts as a Bluth film and (as far as I know) is the only one that carries Bluth’s signature style in both art design and storytelling.
Along with Land Before Time, The Secret of NIMH and All Dogs Go to Heaven are very much worth watching at least once.
I’m also particularly fond of Titan AE, which, even though it came out around 15+ years after the others we’re talking about, is still a decent movie. Though it’s not as emotional as his work from the 80s. I often wonder that if it had been, if it would have done better at the box office.
I adored that movie. I’d be willing to bet that I still know it word-for-word.
For several years my imaginary friend was Fievel. I’d freak the heck out if my mother made me wear an outfit without pockets because then Fievel would have a hard time hitching a ride on me wherever I went. If I had pockets, he could just hop in there.
Since we’re all talking about American Tail, can I ask why people always keep referencing that song as a romantic duet? They’re siblings for goodness sake.
Valentines Day sort of invaded Germany in the last 20-30 years but still it’s not a thing that is largely observed (at least in my age group ;). A lot of people treat it as a conspiracy of the flower and sweets industry to sell more stuff.
But, like in Japan, in the US it seems to be really important for people in romantic relationships? So most people would expect to be treated specially on that day, like it was a relationship anniversary or something?
there’s a lot of conspiracy muttering in the u.s. as well (cuz that is the actual origin), but most people in relationships know better than to use that as an excuse not to buy loads of stuff and over-eat chocolate
It’s more likely your common sense and the fact that people are way better at catching when corporations are trying to manipulate the populace. Then again did Valentine’s day start up around when the Berlin Wall came down? I can Imagine cynicism running strong in that crowd.
She’s really turning a blind eye towards Becky’s new “lifestyle” and consequently can’t even perceive how much her best friend’s action might be deeply hurting other people.
Oh dear are we in for another avalanche of folks blaming Becky for poisoning the water holes of the world? Cause, I’m gonna be honest. I’m really not up for another 30 person spread of Victim-Blaming Theatre.*
*And no, that last paragraph isn’t directed at you, just that that popped in my head as a worry.
Becky nuking the closet is the reason Hitler rose to power in the years leading to world war two, you know. AND the reason VHS rose to prominence over Betamax and Laserdisc.
Well I thought that the victory of VHS over better formats was the result of the advantage of open source over propriatary and that Hitler was just one of
Mike’s jokes that got out of hand.
I’d less worry about Becky’s sexuality (which is totally her own and she should do as she sees fit in that area) and worry more about her impulsiveness. There’s a fine line between spontaneous and waking up in Nova Scotia with no idea how or when you crossed the border.
Implication being Becky IS a thoughtless jerk because of how she’s jaunted off with her long time object of affection, leaving her current actual still-new girlfriend to stew and wonder and fret about her actual significance to Becky etc. Unclear whether that’s what occurred to Becky, but it’s what the narrative seems to be getting at. Joyce’s misstep is asserting Becky to be thoughtless and jerky in the face of that.
Well, Becky’s problem tends to be that she’s self-sacrificing and selfless to her own detriment. And all of Joyce’s friends have been super worried for her and been shown to dig deeper than they normally would to try and be there for her (Dorothy partially considering sleeping with her if it would make her smile, Sal speaking up for her in a major way, Billie openly worrying about her, Becky offering to come along on this trip).
So it’s not that she’s a thoughtless jerk, just that this was a situation where she did know that Joyce was going to a rough situation and needed a friend and Becky was the only one in a position to even try to come along and support and didn’t know that her girlfriend is threatened by this and worries that she’s just a rebound to Becky.
I suspect we’ll see Becky calling Dina sometime this evening or the following morning just to check in and say hi (and hopefully open up to her about how things are making her feel cause damn it is not healthy for her to repress as much as she does), but this was a perfectly sensible decision to make here and genuinely does show a lot of thought and care.
I agree that if you put the most positive possibly spin on literally everything Becky does, she comes off pretty good. Like “that perfect girl” in fact, which is the name of this book. I wonder who That Perfect Girl is. Carla explicitly says she isn’t (which means she might be), and it’s certainly not Mary or Ruth, so that leaves Becky, Joyce, and Dina as the girls the book title could plausible refer to.
Becky’s motivations for coming on this trip are ambiguous. On purpose. That’s why Becky is asking why she came and Joyce is responding that she doesn’t know. It’s not a rhetorical question, it’s the key dramatic mystery of this storyline.
We’ve been given two options as to Becky’s motivations. One, offered by Becky herself, is that it’s a selfless act of support. The other, given by Sarah, is that Becky is still in love with Joyce. This strip is clearly intended to lend credence to Sarah’s theory by having Joyce and Becky herself call her motivations into question. Assuming Becky doesn’t have some mystery third motivation (unlikely), here are the possible endings to this arc.
1. Becky has been entirely selfless, but other characters don’t believe her, leading to drama. She really is “that perfect girl”
2, Becky is still in love with Joyce, and really is just a total selfish prick. Joyce is “that perfect girl” in Becky’s mind
3. Becky is still in love with Joyce, realizes it, and runs off to live happily ever after with Dina (or at least until the next arc involving them). Dina is That Perfect Girl.
I’m putting my money on three. Option one doesn’t resolve properly unless the moral of the story is “stop trying to help people and make out with cute dinosaur girls” which is a weird moral, and being Too Pure For This Sinful Earth isn’t really Willis’ style anyway. Option two would blow up the comment section so hard that I kind of want it to happened in a “some men just want to watch the world burn” way. Option three is thus the most likely. Becky can’t magically turn off being in love with someone, but it’s here that she realizes she’s still hanging on to a false dream, and commits to being with Dina.
I don’t believe she is morally flawless. I believe that she has a major character flaw that causes her to believe that she is a toxin and imposition to everyone in her life and thus is more likely to unhealthily bury her pain and rush to support and talk up her loved ones, especially those she has histories with or crushes on.
And I think they are all “that perfect girl”. Largely all for the same reason to.
Becky, Joyce, Carla, Ruth, Billie, all are under intense pressures to be perfect to be seen as worth loving.
Becky in having to beg for mere tolerance from the closest thing she still has to family and in burying her pain for Joyce’s sake. Joyce in having to bury her doubts and the way she’s starting to view some behaviors of her raising environment as toxic so as to still be flawless for her mother. Jocelyne in having to bury herself and who she is to be still loved by her family and not disowned at best. Ruth in having to navigate blackmail and having to perfectly disguise any sign of her relationship with Billie and rise to actually doing the job of being a good RA, even if that is ripping her apart internally. Billie in having to deal with not being that perfect partner for Ruth anymore because of said blackmail and having to actually look into herself. And Dina in her belief that she is a mere afterthought to Becky and her insecurities about being left behind for Joyce or simply just thrown away.
All are trying to be perfect somethings or are facing demands that they be perfect someones. All are struggling to incorporate their real selves into that. Their flaws and their strengths and make it through with the least amount of damage possible.
Or at least, that’s my take on it.
And I don’t feel that is overly optimistic to say so.
“I don’t believe she is morally flawless. I believe that she has a major character flaw that causes her to believe that she is a toxin and imposition to everyone in her life and thus is more likely to unhealthily bury her pain and rush to support and talk up her loved ones, especially those she has histories with or crushes on.”
I realize that a lot of people are applying the worst possibile interpretation of everything Becky’s ever done, but this is probably going too far the other way. Becky’s never acted like she was worried she was an imposition on people. Quite the opposite, in fact. She’s loud, brash, kind of obnoxious, and spends money on rad haircuts while Joyce is literally skipping meals. Charitably, she’s caught up in the rush of being able to be honest with people for the first time. Uncharitably, she’s doesn’t think about how her actions affect others. Most fights about Becky are about how charitable you want to be with her, and this arc seems like it’s going to answer the question definitively. Personally, I think she’s a good person and maybe a little caught up in being able to express herself freely for the first time, but I certainly don’t think her character flaw is that she’s a doormat.
“Becky, Joyce, Carla, Ruth, Billie, all are under intense pressures to be perfect to be seen as worth loving.”
That’s….certainly an interpretation of things. Becky’s already loved, by Dina, and if she’s hoping to be loved by Joyce as well then Sarah’s right about her, at least partially. Joyce isn’t looking for love (of any kind) in this storyline at all. Her struggle is trying to figure out what she believes anymore. Ruth and Billie aren’t trying to be perfect for love, they have love, they’re trying to beat Ruth. Carla’s not trying to be perfect; she explicitly rejects wanting to/having to be “That Perfect Girl”, though the fact that she said the title means it might end up referring to her after all. Dina might well be the titular “perfect girl” but we’ve seen no sign that she’s trying to change herself for Becky, Grease-style. If Joycelyn’s in this story at all, I’ve missed her (which I might have)
Fair enough, I clearly misspoke with regards to being “perfect”. I suppose I’m meaning it more in terms of having to be perfect in some aspect or demanded to be perfect for some aspect in order to retain their status quo or their humanity, rather than love specifically.
Mea culpa.
“Becky’s never acted like she was worried she was an imposition on people. Quite the opposite, in fact.”
It’s not like she didn’t tell Dina, the woman she loves, that she would have lived under a bridge in her first plan of escape never contacting her or Joyce again, just to keep them safe from her father’s wrath and never put them in harm’s way again: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/fought/
It’s not like she deliberately had her girlfriend take another route in escaping her violent father, trusting that he’d chase her and her “hi-visibility” hair cut instead thus keeping her safe. Self-sacrifice, putting oneself in harm’s way, decreasing the harm to another: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/deceptress/
It’s not like she didn’t literally give up everything, giving herself over freely to the violent abuser who was to take her to a reparative therapy camp where she was to be tortured until she hated herself…at best, all because her standing up for herself was leading to Joyce being triggered and others being put in harms way: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/risk/
Shall I continue?
“and spends money on rad haircuts”
Pfft. Bwahahahaha!
Oh man, every time. Every single time. It always rolls back to that sad little haircut argument. It’s like, oh, is Becky on screen? How long until someone calls her selfish and starts whining that she spent $20 on a haircut instead of infinite poverty solving haircuts.
You know what? Thanks. I needed to laugh like that to help reset.
She’s loud, brash, kind of obnoxious, and spends money on rad haircuts while Joyce is literally skipping meals. Charitably, she’s caught up in the rush of being able to be honest with people for the first time. Uncharitably, she’s doesn’t think about how her actions affect others. Most fights about Becky are about how charitable you want to be with her, and this arc seems like it’s going to answer the question definitively.
Um.
The rad haircut you’re using as a sign of Becky being inconsiderate reads instead to me as a necessary and vital step of establishing and declaring her own identity, in the face of a culture that’s determined to erase her at best. If she were my friend… much as I hate to speak for Joyce, that’d be worth a whole bunch more than skipping some meals.
I’d suggest that this arc isn’t about how charitable anyone should be to Becky but about the wider issue of what restrictions should be placed on her self-identity. Joyce and Toedad have given their answers, and now Hank and Carol are lining up to put the same question to the test in a relatively safe home setting (and the notion of the Brown household being a surrogate home for Becky is important, as is the inverted gender of Joyce/Hank and Toedad/Carol; this is surely not by accident) rather than Toedad’s deluded and violent guns-at-high-noon setting.
But… how charitable should we be with Becky? Could well be an inadvertent word choice there, but I’ll take it any way: I’m with Joyce. I’d maintain that the charity—in several senses—displayed by Dina, Amber/Amazigirl, Joyce, Sal, and an anonymous passerby (doncha just love that it was entirely women who intervened?) fully answers the question. And lest we mistake that as being all about Becky, I think Becky’s heart-breaking final attempt to reason with her father shows that her own concept of how deserving anyone is of that same charity knows few bounds.
As for the haircut, which keeps coming up, that’s a really nice sign of how subtle Willis can be – 8 months after the haircut, Ross tells us why she cut it. “Your hair is your womanhood, and you must reclaim it.” That’s what she was reacting to. Not just a girl wasting money on a “rad haircut”, a deliberate, if symbolic, renunciation of the toxic culture she was raised in.
Worth every damn penny.
And so nicely understated. Becky doesn’t explain it. Even Joyce’s reaction fits in that context.
If Joycelyn’s in this story at all, I’ve missed her (which I might have)
Jocelyne, not Joycelyn.
And no you didn’t miss her, she hasn’t shown up so far.
However she was in preview panels on Willis’ tumblrs, so her showing up is a given.
People often have multiple motivations for their actions. Becky can be hitching a ride because she wants a sense of family, because she needs her SSN, because she’s supporting Joyce, and because she still loves Joyce, all at once.
The title, I think, is that many characters are reacting to various expectations or perceptions of being That Perfect Girl, and exploring the gap between that pressure vs. their imperfect selves. For example, Carla expressly rejects the expectation that she must be that perfect girl to make up for being a transwoman. Joyce fears that she’ll have to be seen as the perfect daughter, and maybe she was before, but won’t be able to be perfect anymore because she’s changed. Becky and Dina think each other is perfect and can be insecure about their own merits (especially Dina). Mary thinks she is more perfect than you, and Billie and Ruth, who loathe themselves, hate that about her. Billie is actively trying to be the perfect support-girlfriend, to save Ruth. You can bet Jocelyn will have some idea of herself in relation to that construct, too, and maybe others by the time this storyline is done.
If there’s anything self-centered about her going with Joyce, it’s probably her hope that she can connect with Joyce’s parents and find something a bit like family and home again, strengthened by Hank’s reaction and dashed by Carol’s.
If there’s anything about maybe hooking up with Joyce in there, it’s buried way down in the subconscious under a mountain of denial. They’re going to have to recontextualize their relationship at some point to get away from that, since it’s always been friendship on Joyce’s part and (unrealized) crush on Becky’s. Likely that’s going to require some distance to work out, but they’ve both got enough trauma and need enough support right now that this isn’t a good time.
I think you need to allow Becky to be human and make mistakes too, Cerberus. As above & elsewhere, I don’t think Becky really made a fully-thought-through and intentional decision to come along to support Joyce and (especially) to deflect criticism onto herself, as you’ve suggested; but more specifically to the theme, she’s hurting Dina, however unintentionally, by her fixation on Joyce.
Look again at the recent sequence, from [internal screaming] on; Becky & Dina are happily hand-in-hand until Becky gets panged for Joyce again (thanks Walky). When Joyce has a problem, Becky leaps to her side and poof! Dina’s out of the picture again; now Becky’s impulsively cadged a road trip for a mess of reasons that I don’t think even she fully understands and run off for the weekend with her love-of-my-life, seemingly without a word to her actual girlfriend, who’s missing her and (rightfully) insecure about the relationship.
Becky is treating Dina poorly here, and the last two panels make it pretty clear that she’s just realised it. For all that her cynicism and timing suck, Sarah’s not actually wrong. Happy Valentine’s Day.
To be clear, in case I wasn’t: Becky is unambiguously Good People. The point is that even Good People can get things wrong and cause hurt without meaning to, and I think Becky has just realised she’s doing that with Dina.
“I think you need to allow Becky to be human and make mistakes too, Cerberus.”
Indeed, I think she has major flaws that hamper her. Her jealousy of Dorothy. Her burying of pain making it difficult for others to emotionally support her (which is probably also modeling bury your pain behavior for Dina that is directly leading to Dina not talking about how much the Joyce stuff is bothering her). I like Becky because she’s a mess and I identify with a number of ways in which she’s a mess.
“I don’t think Becky really made a fully-thought-through and intentional decision to come along to support Joyce and (especially) to deflect criticism onto herself”
I would agree. I don’t think Becky had much of a fully-thought out anything other than “Joyce sad, I need to support, I can offer to come with, she said yes, I’m coming with” and certainly didn’t intend to be a criticism sponge. Hell, part of her was probably clinging to some distant hope that things would go well and she’d find her replacement family.
Interestingly enough, this is an intriguing aspect of Becky as a character. She’s impulsive, which typically means bad in most narratives, but in DoA, it actually works out more often than not. She takes big risks, trusting in her ability to improvise on the fly and make things work. Sometimes they pay off (her 9-11 gambit, her fleeing to Joyce, her admission of attraction to Dina), sometimes they don’t (her coming on to Joyce and kissing her, her split up and lose him in the treeline gambit), but she always keeps on trying and just absorbs the bad and tries to keep a positive demeanor. It’s… I don’t fully know what, maybe a little aspirational, because someone who takes big risks like that is kind of an interesting character.
And as for your sequence of events, I can see where you’re coming from, but I think you’re missing a very key piece.
“seemingly without a word to her actual girlfriend,”
Panel 5:
Hank: “… So who’s that Becky is saying goodbye to?”
Joyce: “That’s Dina, her girlfriend.”
She deliberately went out of her way to say goodbye to Dina. Additionally, Dina was present and made very aware of the offer and the plan, hours before any of that recent sequence. Dina knew this was happening and Becky made sure she said goodbye first.
Which does not seem to support your particular conclusion here.
Also, I will note that the last time that everyone assumed that Becky was doing something wrong, imposing on Joyce and putting her in danger, they were all wrong, Becky was in fact invited and everything was okay and the time shortly after where everyone assumed that Becky was being awful and not saying goodbye to Dina, the next strip was Becky saying goodbye to Dina.
I am fully prepared to be 100% wrong on Becky and Becky’s actions in context. That’s the fun thing about reading a webcomic. But I feel somewhat justified in assuming a better case scenario for Becky’s motivations than most given previous predictions regarding her behavior.
Ah, yes – you’re right, I forgot that she did say goodbye. I don’t think it invalidates the conclusion, though, to take that specific bit out (I’ll note that I did deliberately cast it from a sympathetic-to-Dina perspective). The thread still seems to be that Dina comes second to Joyce in Becky’s thinking, and knows it.
I get your reading on Dina knowing about Becky’s plan – personally, though, I got the impression that Becky going with Joyce wasn’t so much a ‘done deal’ as a suggestion Becky had made, but was still up in the air. I don’t recall Joyce saying Yes (correct me if I’m wrong!), and I thought the layout from when Becky went over to greet Hank read more like a snap decision than being pre-planned – Joyce didn’t really seem to have been expecting her to come with them, either then or now. Either way, though, Dina seems to have been an onlooker to that discussion, not involved in it.
All of which is not to say, of course, that Becky’s being selfish – she patently isn’t. I do think that she’s neglecting Dina’s feelings in favour of Joyce and needs to recognise that (and in fact just has). It may well be a case of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”.
She’s also in the week or so she’s been here made deliberate attempts to balance her time with Dina and Joyce and talked about that with Dina. In terms of going with them to classes and things like that. We didn’t see the conversation with Dina about the weekend, but we know she knew about it and actually be a major change in their relationship patterns for them not to have talked about it.
Beyond that, while she has a crush on Joyce, she’s also been her best friend forever and she’s only known Dina a week. And Joyce is going through a major crisis, which Becky is directly involved with, while Dina isn’t. Becky isn’t going to cut Joyce out of her life or stop supporting her, that would be a horrible thing to do.
But yes, Dina’s going to feel hurt and insecure about it at times. That’s the low part of a new relationship, to go with the new relationship high. You’re not yet confident and secure enough in the relationship to trust, even when trust is warranted.
Dina’s feeling jealous which is normal and human, but it would’ve been genuinely horrible of Becky to abandon her oldest and dearest friend at an emotionally critical moment simply because of the confusion of her crush and the outside possibility that her new girlfriend would take it the wrong way.
Do they need to talk about the feelings this all arises, Dina about her feelings of jealousy and abandonment and insecurities surrounding being wanted and Becky about her buried stuff and her feelings of needing to sacrifice for those who’ve “saved her” and her fears about family?
Totes. But that’s part of a relationship. And having messy complications with feelings and desires to do good is part of being humans and especially humans in love.
her 9-11 gambit
Her what?
I really do not grok the term.
I tried to educate myself by a look on the google, but all that came up was Trump vs Jeb Bush.
“911”, not “9-11”. Emergency response number.
Dialing 911 in the car when she saw Amazi-girl in tow, alerting the police and not incidentally providing evidence to them, but also putting herself more at risk when her dad realized it. That is in fact when he hit her.
That she didn’t do it until someone else was at risk is the relevant point here, I think.
There’s some validity in there, but I don’t think the fixation’s on Joyce: I think it’s on the link that Joyce is to the functional side of family and para-family she’s grown up in. She was clearly delighted both to see Hank and to be accepted by him (and then promptly fell asleep, because, Becky), but there hasn’t been a hint of her seeing Joyce as someone to push romantic boundaries with.
This is a reading that matches the perfect-girl notion around who Becky is supposed to have grown up as, and who she’s expected to be satisfying by that. She can’t test that out on Joyce, she needs to do that with others she grew up around, and as parental figures Hank and Carol are pretty essential there.
Crush and life-long friend are definitely tangled, but I’m not convinced there’s been any evidence of the former since her lesbian prayer was answered. But parent and home? We’re seeing bunches of that.
Yeah, though Becks & Dina were inseparable for most of the last couple days. I still blame Sarah for making Dina all insecure with her “Becky is in LURVE with Joyce” nonsense.
Though we don’t know what Dina is said about yet. She could just be regularly missing Becks and being worried about how she’s be dealing with Joyce’s fam.
Ugh this BeckDina drama is rubbing me the wrong way. STOP BEING SO INSECURE
A little blame might go Sarah’s way, but it’s not a stark as putting doubts in Dina’s mind, more like validation of existing fears. “I know.” Still bad, of course.
Order now and get Dina Sings The Classics! Album includes such hits as:
Barney’s “I Love You”
Was (Not Was)’s “Walk the Dinosaur”
Weird Al’s “Jurassic Park”
Hanna-Barbera’s “Flintstones Theme”
They Might Be Giants’ “I am a Paleontologist”
The Nostalgia Critic’s “I’m the Muthafuckin’ T-Rex!”
Baby’s Sinclair’s “I’m the Baby (Gotta Love Me)”
Buy now and we’ll throw in precisely NONE of the songs from the musical sequels to Land Before Time, because that entire franchise is an abomination after the first one.
Honestly, it’s kinda impossible to not be a thoughtless jerk ALL the time. You can’t think of absoluttely everyone and how your actions can affect everyone you know.
Although that being said, she REALLY should have prepared Dina more.
I don’t see how. Like, Becky brought Dina with her when talking with Joyce and was there for the second offer and probably for the first offer to come along as well. So she knew it was coming and didn’t actively push for more or ask to strategize for communication over the weekend or say anything about her needs.
And she took time before heading off to say goodbye and presumably to let Dina know how to get in touch with her if she needs her. She’s not a mind-reader, she’s not going to be able to divine that Dina actually is really negatively affected by this when she has only let slip this information to Sarah. And at the time it made sense for her to continue with her plan to support Joyce as she definitely knew her best friend was in a bad space and needed support.
She’s handled it about as well as anyone could expect to with the information she had.
No, the saddest thing is a little girl who has been told by her mother and father that she will never be pretty. And then they open the front door, and on the porch is a little white suitcase, with all her things in it.
Becky needs someone she has previously allowed vulnerability with and Dina needs just some voice time (and to bloody well tell Becky what she’s feeling) to work through the NRE-fueled codependence of wanting to be with her all the time.
Now cue major night crisis that prevents this and Dina assuming the worst about her baby dyke.
agreed, and presumably these things could have been handled off-screen did the thought occur, but….does becky still have dina’s phone, and failing that, does she have her phone NUMBER? because last i knew they were sort of sharing dina’s phone between them, which kind of impedes the whole “call your girlfriend” thing.
not that they don’t have any way to contact her indirectly, if need be. should the thought occur.
…So is Becky supposed to be the thoughtless jerk for how she’s treating Dina? The way the strip’s laid out (“You’re not a thoughtless jerk”, beat, cutaway to someone arguably being harmed by Becky’s thoughtlessness), it reads as if that’s the message.
I don’t really think of Becky/Dina that way at all, if only because I don’t think there’s ever been any kind of implication that it was Becky who was causing Dina harm, rather than how Dina was viewing herself and what she means to Becky, so I’m kinda confused.
Why go home for her SSN:
first she may not even have a home now, it may be repossessed or something.
Second she can go to any SS Office anywhere and get the SSN. But first she needs something to prove her identity, like her birth certificate: which she can also send away for. (I’ve done it myself).
Next: she is at Joyce’s house, I have a feeling they don’t live that far apart. She can easily check it out, and even get some of her own clothes etc?
Because all those take weeks if not months and she wants to start working as soon as possible, especially since she’s a homeless youth with literally no source of income and wants to start going to a public university, not to mention not be relying solely on her friends’ good will just to be able to eat and buy basic necessities and minor luxuries.
Actually I had a friend who lost all that stuff at once: Her ID, her birth certificate, and SSN (IT was all in her wallet cause she needed them for paperwork and I think it was lost or damaged) and she had a hell of a time getting any of them because she didn’t have either of the other two to prove stuff.
Her home can’t have been repossessed -banks don’t like doing it, and there’s no justification, at this point in time, for doing so. Toedad showed up what, a week ago, in-comic? There’s no way he’s missed enough payments on the house to have gotten enough legal advance notification for it to be repossessed -and it’s entirely possible Becky’s keys still work -or that Joyce’s parents or someone else in the community have working ones that can let her in to go and get some things she’d need/want.
It’d make sense if Becky felt guilty because she ran off without saying goodbye or something, but she’s allowed to go back home with her oldest and dearest friend and replacement family for Thanksgiving.
If your beloved other went off to spend the weekend with someone that you know they used to pine for, whether they told you about it or not, would you not feel sad about that?
That face in the second to last panel might as well be Becky realizing she made a rash quick-second decision because she’s still not completely over Joyce, when Dina was right there willing to be her emotional foundation. Or pillar. Whatever sounds more romantic.
If that is a genuine concern, given that the person in question is their oldest and dearest friend and their only connection to their previous life, including all their possessions and important legal documents, well…obviously that relationship isn’t built on a solid foundation of trust at all.
Well, it’s not built on a solid foundation of trust because it’s about a week old. They’re still building that foundation.
Even if they talked about it and agreed to Becky going and Dina really was alright with it, there’s still going to be some stress at this point.
Which is painful, but unavoidable. And okay. It’s actually part of building that foundation, transitioning from new relationship puppy love to something more lasting.
But that’s still not Becky being thoughtless, other than “oh man what if Dina takes this badly” which we’ve never gotten any indication that she’s clued into Dina’s insecurities, nor should she really be compelled to preemptively act to assuage them, or spend time away from Joyce to placate Dina’s worries.
Becky’s not over Joyce, but that doesn’t get in the way of how she treats Dina. Even if she was totally repulsed at the idea of being attracted to Joyce she’d still be tagging along to support her as well as pick up any legal documentations she needs from her house.
Then why didn’t she invite Dina? From what I can tell, this is happening over the weekend. No classes to be missed, but a whole lot to be gained. Becky could’ve showed Dina her hometown, talked about some great times she had as a kid(most likely with Joyce but still), and expanded their relationship.
Instead she leaves Dina behind because she’s still a little sour that Joyce and Dorothy got to have a pretend marriage with each other.
Look I’m not saying she did this consciously, that’d be too mean if she did, but it was still thoughtless to not try and include Dina.
Becky: “Hey Joyce can Dina come along too?” Joyce: “Hey dad can Dina come along too?”
Joyce’s Dad: “As long as I get to sleep in the backseat you can bring the whole dorm with you.”
Ctrl+C D@: Yeah, that’d go over well. Imagine Dina in the Brown household. This weekend was already going to be a trial, there was no reason whatsoever to involve another complicating person.
Hank would grit his teeth, but can you imagine, Carol would treat Dina horribly. They have enough trouble handling the Becky they’ve always known without the presence of her new evolutionist girlfriend, and Dina would feel totally overwhelmed and attacked.
Inviting Dina along would be nice support for Becky, but it would be rude, and would not be worth it at all on this trip, and especially rough to Dina.
Man, can you imagine? Dina the take no crap atheist scientist? Versus Carol. It’d be non-stop fighting between the two with Dina trying to explain why Carol’s viewpoints on evolution and queerness are completely wrong and Carol getting more and more passive-aggressive. It’d be an epic disaster. And no one would emerge from it unscarred, including Dina as you said, Leorale.
I dunno, if I’m going to someone else’s family for dinner, even a close family, I probably wouldn’t bring anyone else with me. It might be more just a matter of politeness rather than Becky trying to capitalize on not having the friend stealing hussy around.
Like, it just seems like we’re treating Becky as a bad girlfriend blinded by her thirst for Joyce because she’s not glued to Dina’s hip 24/7.
Dude. Think about that for a second. Why didn’t she invite Dina… to her friend’s house… a friend who’s parents have very strong “views” about atheists and are barely handling even a tense “tolerance” for Becky’s queerness.
I mean, no, you just don’t do that. It would be massively rude and weird and would have been shot down immediately. Cause, you just don’t ask if you can bring a date to a friend’s house for a weekend family visit when you’re not directly family.
They’re not on vacation. Joyce is critically depressed and has been subverbal and subfunctional all week and Becky has been front and center to witness every stage of her total collapse of faith. Becky is here because her best friend is scared for the first time of going home and Becky feels she owes her to take a big risk and be there for her.
Both because a) Joyce was there for her on her worst day, punching out her dad, rescuing her from kidnapping, and not to mention taking her in in the first place when she had nowhere else to go, and b) Becky blames herself for Joyce having a rocky relationship with her parents in the first place. Like, in her head, if she wasn’t queer and didn’t get caught in her dorm room kissing her roommate and didn’t run to Joyce instead of living under a bridge, then Joyce wouldn’t have been threatened with a gun and screamed at her parents or be having this crisis of faith. It’s wrong. But I know from personal experience that the brain doesn’t care one whit for that when it can echo all the blame you’re internalizing.
Dina was always going to be left behind and Becky was always going to be coming along and the fact that Becky still has feelings for Joyce is actually probably the least related to this decision.
But Dina is jealous. And that is okay. It’s okay for a person to be jealous and worried that their lover cares more for their first crush and their best friend than some new “weird dino girl” (in her own words), who’s probably not as interesting to others (in her own skewed self-image). But she needs to call Becky and communicate that over the phone so that Becky can do what she always does and talk up her awesome Dinogal girlfriend who bites Toedad and has all sorts of awesome dino facts.
Though I have to say, despite the obvious horrible consequences I was amused a few strips back by the idea of them pulling up to the house, getting out of the car, followed by Dina to a complete double-take from Hank who hadn’t even noticed she was in the car.
The holidays? Today is the first of October in comic time. The only holiday around then is Columbus Day, and even that’s a week away (second Monday).
This is just a visit home for Joyce after what’s been a pretty traumatic event (and probably also a way to makes sure she isn’t ‘straying’).
I don’t think Willis is suggesting that Becky is a thoughtless jerk (that’s what
the comment section is for), it just that she feels guilty even if she really shouldn’t.
Take your pick. Becky’s been thrown into a meat grinder of late and seems to be blaming herself for all the friends who were attacked or put in danger by her dad when she got kidnapped, Joyce’s current mental breakdown and tense relationship with her folks, everyone who’s ever been “inconvenienced” by her presence, and probably yeah, for not being able to be an awesome girlfriend for her super smart and awesome girlfriend who can take down Toedads and is just always there for her in her darkest moments.
I dunno, having been in a version of that situation before, it can be really easy to blame yourself for literally everything all at once. Even your own existence and things are not helped for Becky given that both her dad and Joyce’s mom have directly blamed her for “destroying her family” which we’ve seen is one of the few things that drives Becky to tears.
She’s not being fair to herself, but then, it’s hard to be fair to yourself when your life has been upended as thoroughly as Becky’s has.
I mean, if this was Becky feeling unwarranted guilt over “causing” more grief for Joyce, then that makes sense, but with that last panel it forces the implication that Becky’s being thoughtless about Dina, which I just really don’t agree with at all.
Maybe. I also wouldn’t agree with that. But I think this really was all about making a sad Valentines Day comic rather than implying some genuine misdeed on Becky’s part.
Well, possibly. It’s not a DoA Valentine’s day comic unless someone’s sad, and the reason I’ve been so confused about it is that I know that Becky hasn’t done anything wrong by Dina and I know that wasn’t Willis’ intent with that, so I’m pretty lost.
Like, I actually prefer reading it without that last panel, because it has the implication of Becky feeling guilty over being told by Joyce to not feel so guilty, which I can sadly relate to.
I’m spitballing here because I’m confused as well, but maybe some of the insecurities Dina has voiced have occurred to Becks as well. It’s possible she’s worried that she might be using Dina as a. rebound, and that’s why we got that panel transition. This is all conjecture, though
See, I interpreted Becky’s expression in the fifth panel followed by the panel of Dina alone to mean Becky was thinking about Dina being alone and feeling bad about it.
I think it probably is. In comics shorthand, that’s a pretty common way of indicating that kind of thing.
However, Becky feeling bad about it doesn’t mean Becky should feel bad about it. Means she should call Dina and talk to her when she can.
Anymore than Joyce’s crises with her parents are Becky’s fault. Or whatever Joyce thinks is her fault here is actually her fault.
I dunno, I took it as a means of cutting back to the dorms, checking in with Dina, and keeping up the “sad Valentine’s day” comics of negative romantic situations, rather than the narrative saying “Becky is bad and should feel bad”.
I’m gonna wager tomorrow’s comic is Becky borrowing Joyce’s phone to call Dina and say nice things to her. And that this leads to an argument between Joyce and Carol.
I think the idea of the comic is to get us to think that Sarah’s advice to Dina was correct, that Becky IS still in love with Joyce and Dina’s just a rebound.
Whether that turns out to be ultimately true or not will presumably be revealed in the next few strips, but that’s kind of what I think Willis wants us to be thinking right now.
How often is Sarah’s relationship advice ever right? She’s on the ball about a lot of things but interpersonal relationships is 100% not one of those things.
I mean, she’s not wrong. Becky was in love with Joyce for years, got rejected, then immediately got with Dina. People don’t drop feelings like that that fast. Sarah’s timing may have been poor, but honestly I’ve seen people criticizing her for opining out something we all already assume to Dina, and that confuses the hell out of me.
Yeah, it’s not a great punchline cuz to be quite honest it’s just wrong. This isn’t the result of Becky being thoughtless it’s the result of her not being psychic.
Awwww, Dinasaur :c C’mere honey, let’s have some ice cream and talk about how time away from your partner is a good healthy thing and she’ll be home before you know it.
“Make up”? I disagree with that particular construction, but I imagine Becky will be more than happy to see Dina and be full of desires for infinite cuddles and retreating from the world with her the second she gets back. Especially with an entire weekend of Carol sniping at her every minute she’s alone with her.
I mean, after a weekend that awful, I can imagine Becky will want literally nothing else but to be with her girlfriend when she gets back. I know I would.
Okay, toning down my sarcasm, yes, indeed Dina has feelings. And her feelings are valid. Her jealousy and insecurities may be as misplaced as Becky’s, but they are real feelings she is going through.
And Becky right now does not know what Dina is going through because Becky has not told her. In the same way that I imagine Becky’s issues with and desperation for family is haunting her is hidden from Dina similarly because Becky has not told her about that and has deliberately kept that a secret for everyone close to her.
They need to talk and open up more to each other, not just about their awesomeness and appreciation for each other, but their fears and insecurities. They’re both wonderfully supportive partners and the more they communicate the healthier they become. And I hope they do not fall out of those good habits just because of these parts where they are not communicating the depth of their pains and worries*.
*Yes, I know the futility of saying that given that this is Dumbing of Age, but Bob forgive me I’ve got genuine hope for these crazy kids and I’ve really liked what I’ve seen of their dynamic and way of interacting with each other up to this point.
They’ve also only known each other for, what, a little over a week or so in DoA time and this is pretty much a first “real” dating relationship for both of them?
Yeah, learning to open up and communicate is going to take time.
You know, what you’re saying makes me think that, after this weekend, Becky and Dina will end up progressing in their relationship just out of the desire to spend more time together to forget the horribleness of this weekend.
I was partly making a joke. Since Becky talked to Dina before she left, I’m sure Dina understands. Sometimes you have to trust the ones you care about. Sometimes it’s hard, or it hurts to be alone, but these things happen.
As long as they can talk openly with each other when Becky get’s back, it’s not so much an issue as a minor road-bump.
This is just me, but Joyce has been treating Becky like nothing can be her fault lately, and with what happened recently it’s understandable that you’d want to make sure your friend doesn’t get any more emotional drama, but at the same time Becky is a human being, and she’s bound to feel guilty over some things just cause that’s human nature.
She’s still obviously not over Joyce, but this also conflicts with her new feelings for Dina. Add onto that the recent news that Joyce got to pretend to be married with Dorothy, who Becky views as a rival(?) in terms of being Joyce’s best friend, and you’ve got the Shamrock Shake of emotional whiplashes.
That’s just trading one set of issues for another, I think. Or maybe I’m just too close to the divide between being suited to monogamy and suited to polyamory to be particularly comfortable with either.
Becky realizing that her “I’m just trying to be totes supportive of my besty” angle wasn’t entirely altruistic and came at the expense of someone she claims to care about. At least that’s what that 5th panel face says to me. She might not be a thoughtless jerk, but she chose spur-of-the-moment to spend her time with those jerks instead of her girlfriend.
The strip is saying Becky really is a thoughtless jerk for running off with Joyce, and now comes the moment of truth where we learn if Becky is a good character making a mistake or if she’s been an selfish jerk all along and everyone’s kind of been willfully blind to it given her situation. A lot of her actions so far could be read through either lens, which is part of why she’s such a controversial character.
This isn’t even a mistake. Based on all of the information Becky had this was the right things to do. Hell, even if she’d known about Dina’s concerns this may still have been the right thing to do because leaving Joyce to deal with her fundamentalist family alone probably isn’t seeming too wise considering her own experience with fundamentalist family. Becky is not a mind reader, she has no reason to expect that Dina is worried about being a rebound and Dina has given her no reason to do so.
Holy crap, I just realised. Becky’s actual home is right near where they are. She will have to get clothes and documents at some point. That will be rough.
She can say to all the Church folk who’ll be there to pick up momentos and keepsakes so that they aren’t stolen by the “evil government”. She may even get a free camping trip out of it!
I don’t see why this relationship couldn’t be or is not fulfilling.
I mean, yes, she’s sad right now, because she’s heavy in NRE* and even short absences feel like an eternity under NRE. But learning to accept that absences are going to occur is a necessary part of building healthy boundaries and dynamics in a very young relationship that is probably both Becky and Dina’s first real relationships.
It’s 2 days. She’ll survive. And on Monday or hell, Sunday evening, they can kiss and hug, and melt away from the world together. Bob knows Becky will need it.
*NRE= New Relationship Energy, that early part of a relationship where red flags might as well be decorative china, you cannot keep your hands off each other, and so many endorphins and happy juice is running through your heads you’re probably legally an idiot. Can be the most fun part of a relationship, can be the most infuriatingly intense part of a relationship.
Yes, and no. Yes, we all deserve to treat each other with all the love and compassion and respect that humanity can muster. And no, Dina went into this knowing that Becky still had strong feelings for Joyce, and that as the rebound girlfriend she would likely have times when she’s only getting tables scraps from the feast of affection that Becky still has for Joyce.
It’s like getting on a roller coaster with a friend in order to make lasting memories for the future, even though it might make you sick enough to puke. You don’t deserve to throw up all that cotton candy and funnel cake, but you got on the ride knowing the possible consequences, so you kinda do deserve it.
Dina got on the Becky-coaster. Will it end with vomit, exhilaration, or both? Whatever it is, it’s what Dina signed up for when she handed over her ticket.
I completely disagree (unless Dina wants something else, in which case of course she’s always allowed to seek it instead). But saying someone deserves better because their girlfriend of ~10 days felt she had to support her best friend of 10-18 years (not sure if both were born there, but early childhood definitely implied) through what will be a very hard weekend is plain silly, regardless of if there is/was attraction- especially knowing that Joyce doesn’t return the affection and is straight.
I’d be fucking pissed if that was what my husband expected of me, at any point in our relationship.
Seriously. It’s like, Becky’s going on a weekend trip to help her closest friend who is in crisis and see if the closest thing she’s got to a family anymore will still love her even though she’s all lesbified.
She’s not running away with Joyce and getting gay married. She hasn’t broken up with Dina. She’s gone on an emergency weekend trip. This is not a real negative action.
They’re no more “in danger” or “broken up” than I was with the person I’m currently deeply in NRE with when they had to fly off for a funeral for 3 weeks. Like, yeah, shit happens. And under NRE you can miss the person and send pokey supportive hug text messages, but you gotta just deal with it and talk out the emotions that come up during it if they really bother you.
Honestly, I see Dina and Becky coming out of this weekend really fucking healthy, especially as Becky and Joyce seem to be creating more of a sister dynamic which will help Becky with getting through her lingering romantic feelings for Joyce and definitely especially because Becky is going to want nothing more than to lock herself in a room cuddling and crying on Dina’s lap for a week after this weekend of Hell.
Plus, it wasn’t a surprise last-minute decision, either! Becky offered to accompany her home (in front of Dina) so she wouldn’t face them alone. She reminded Joyce of her offer, then gently and friendly-like, nudged it into motion with Joyce’s dad. She had a nice goodbye moment with Dina (in view of dad, too)
Sometimes, I wonder if I’m reading a completely different comic, cause in mine it seems like Becky brought this up early, it was in front of Dina, she took time to say goodbye to Dina, has regularly shown her appreciation and love for Dina when Dina has expressed her insecurities, and is depicted frequently to be unreasonably selfless.
But in so many others, I dunno, I guess Becky broke up with Dina to go fuck Joyce in front of her mom out of selfish lesbo lust or some such shit.
Yeah, it’s kind of weird how people are complaining about Becky and Dina’s relationship, considering how it seems to be the only one where the participants are acting reasonably, just because they’re having normal relationship insecurities.
I like the interaction between Becky and Joyce, as it shall always remind me of my friend, and I only regret that she dislikes webcomics (no one is perfect) so I can’t really shove this on her and expect happiness to ensue.
And this is one of my favourite storylines so far. Some topics, I feel like the author is missing some vital element in humanity and how people interact, not in the broad brush strokes but in the nuances, and that somewhat distances me from the story. But especially where Joyce is concerned (or Dorothy and Walky, and Sal’s personality) the character writing is strong, and in this plot, while it’s not something I can apply personal experience to it’s still quite compelling and realistic. Particularly the opening conversation with Joyce; the image of two people experiencing their own subjective realities, and the ability to connect with each experience, is real.
Depending on what you assume Becky’s motivations are, she’s either a really good person or a total prick. If you think she’s here to support Joyce, she’s not a selfish jerk. If you agree with Sarah’s interpretation that she’s still in love with Joyce, she’s kind of an asshole and Dina really is just some rebound.
In this strip, I don’t think even Becky knows for sure why she’s there. I think he question in panel 1 isn’t actually rhetorical, and Joyce’s “I’m still a little fuzzy on that” reinforces this.
its definitely not an either/or thing.
i do think shes here to support joyce. i also think shes well within her rights to do so, even if it WAS just for her, and dina shouldnt need to be hurt by it. i also think that, nonetheless, dina is clearly hurt by it.
and sarahs interpretation is blatantly correct. dina is a rebound. becky and dina have known each other for days, theyre not deeply in love.
becky is also frequently a huge jerk to dorothy for no reason, and this has been acknowledged by the other characters.
Sarah’s right that she’s a rebound, but she’s wrong in her implication that that inherently means anything about the viability of their relationship. They could be true destined lovers tied by the red string and Sarah would still say they’re doomed because she’s a cynical misanthrope who expects the worst of everyone at all times.
Also I’m not convinced that Dorothy thinks that Becky is a huge jerk to Dorothy which is what’s important. Becky may be trying to be jerky to Dorothy in kind of a joke-ish way but she’s missing wildly.
Wow, no. Becky is not an asshole for being still in love with Joyce, and it doesn’t mean that Dina is ‘just’ a rebound. News flash: you can, in fact, be in love with two people at once! And it doesn’t make you a jerk!
And she’s handling this shit situation as well as she can. She’s kept Dina in the loop for all of this ‘visiting Joyce’s home for this weekend’ decision-making drama. Yes, Dina is full of doubts about Becky leaving her. Yes, Becky is full of doubts about leaving Dina (which is what this strip is implying, as far as I can tell). They still love each other and have the damn near healthiest relationship in this entire comic. And Becky is here to support Joyce, absolutely regardless of any lingering romantic/sexual feelings.
Yeah, it’s not super clear what the intention is here. If it’s “Becky thinks she’s a thoughtless jerk for leaving Dina alone” then yeah that’s accurate but if it’s “Beck actually is a thoughtless jerk for leaving Dina alone” then it’s simplistic nonsense.
But… we are shown Becky’s doubt face in response to Joyce’s statement. We know that Becky is thinking Joyce is wrong in SOME way. Dina being what Becky is thinking about fits well as an explanation of that.
Dina being sad and alone and insecure is Willis’s valentines day gift to us readers. It’s a somewhat twisted relationship and we keep coming back for more.
I never get the sense that Willis is really trying to push any interpretation, at least when it comes to non-villainous characters.
He’s really good at letting characters make flawed decisions and not condemn it, like with Sal advocating not going to the police after the party incident, and Billie thinking she’s toxic.
Actually Sal wasn’t wrong with the ‘don’t go to the police’ advice. There was like a 1% chance police would actually help in any way and not make things much, much worse by doubting Joyce’s word and Joyce’s innocence and victim-blaming for the max, and most definitely not do anything about the actual perpetrator. There isn’t any proof, after all!… and in any case, he didn’t ACTUALLY rape her, so no harm, no foul, right?…
Naw! Maybe more… Becky realizing there’s some things she feels like a thoughtless jerk about that might be more valid then trying to shield her best friend from flak from parents. She said goodbye to Dina and it’s just for a weekend, so leaving for a weekend isn’t it…
…maybe she’s realized Dina is sort of a rebound for her? Which doesn’t mean their relationship is doomed, but she might be worried that Dina’s more invested in this relationship than she is. It’s something they might want to talk about.
Panel 1: Oof, Becky’s mask is slipped off. That Carol comment hit her way deeper and way sharper than she had prepared for and now she’s got a full weekend of putting up with that ahead of her. I think she may have assumed that no one could put her in as much danger and hurt her as badly as her father, but was not necessarily prepared for the type of passive-aggressive victim-blaming that Carol has decided to open up with.
Also, Joyce, ouch. You know darn well why she came along.
Panel 2: Clever girl. Joyce has already snooped out that her mom said something awful. I think the combination of Becky’s usual poker face slipping and comment may have clued her in.
Panel 3: 🙁 Oh, damn, Becky really has internalized what her dad and Joyce’s mom have said and really does believe that she is an imposition into people’s lives that “ruins” everything, hasn’t she?
I mean, there have been major hints that this is a major theme running through her head*, but this feels like the first major confirmation since her kidnapping that it is still something she deeply believes about herself.
And sadly, I identify a lot with that, because when you face shit like Becky has faced, well, it gets real fucking easy to blame yourself and see yourself as a shitheel that needs to make up for how “hard” you make everyone’s lives.
Panel 4: Though, with that “my fault” comment by Joyce, it looks like she’s not the only one who blames herself for things that are not her fault. Both of them are way too hard on themselves and too selfless for their own goods sometimes.
Panel 5: Becky totes believes she’s not to blame for everything and anything… yes siree Bob.
Panel 6: :c Oh man, Dina… You just know that she put her Dinosaur book next to her because she’s used to Becky reading it next to her and was hoping that having it nearby would somehow lessen how much she misses and worries about her baby dyke. And that’s just sad, even though getting used to boundaries is a healthy thing in the long run.
90% of all storylines involve relationship issues. People tell stories about relationships because humans like listening to stories about relationships.
How to know you’re reading a David Willis story:
Every character with good intentions is constantly fucking up and inadvertently hurting other characters.
joyce is still guilty about having originally shared the same views as the people who want to hurt becky
shes actually been pretty supportive the entire time but she associates herself pretty heavily with her religion so its hard to separate that
Probably doesn’t help that she’s seen the fellow members of her religion do and say the most awful things and is starting to suspect that the edifice of what she was taught was pure morality is not so great.
She’s starting to see her background for what it is and doesn’t fully trust herself to be an ally yet. I’m not entirely sure she’s seen/ wants to see how much she’s been moving away from all that and how much she’s grown. And I include the latter there, because this arc has been all about how terrified she is of the fact that she’s genuinely becoming an ally and that is putting her in direct odds of the faith of her raising.
As someone in a similar situation (w/o a DIRECT connection a la Becky), you are spot on. No matter how supportive I become, it’s not good enough, and it’s too little too late. Conversely, there’s constant guilt over turning back on things friends and family hold sacred (and that’s just if they don’t become visibly upset). The Church is a messed place, a lot of the time.
I’m not sure that’s true, though Joyce may think so. Becky’s felt this way for years, but I don’t think she really realized it until they were off to college. I think she said so, somewhere along the line.
I don’t think Joyce has a hidden agenda in that statement: I think she is really trying to reassure her friend: which is good, as Joyce has pretty much been curled up around her own problems.
I tried to figure out Becky’s face in that panel: I think maybe she feels really hurt by dear Carols lovely greeting, and that she is missing spending time with Dina, and that yeah – she feels like she is to blame for the crap that went down.
Said it before and I will say it again: Becky has nothing to apologize for and Joyce is the one who should be making a big fuss over her, because she is the one who had the gun pulled on her, was chased into the woods, was car-napped, and smacked by her father and then lucky to crawl out of the car he wrecked.
Joyce had absolutely nothing compared to that happen to her. She saw Becky kidnapped and that was frightening. But that could have been it.
Howerver, then she chose to ride with Sal on the bike to the scene, and then she got her frustrations out by laying a terrific roundhouse right on Toedad’s jaw. This ride and the strike were her decisions. Good for her. So what is all the crying about for poor Joyce?
Joyce should be going out of her way for Becky, not the other way round. If Becky is really just letting all this roll off her, she’s amazing. But, she seems to be holding in a lot, from faces like in the above panel. And I really feel for her.
Ok, let’s not play Trauma Olympics here, okay? Becky absolutely was hurt, and people who are implying she should neglect herself and dance around Joyce are 100% in the wrong.
But Joyce was also hurt, and there’s no point in and no way to compare it to Becky’s hurt quantitatively. She was near raped, had her entire worldview shaken, had a gun pulled on her by a trusted adult. Just because she chose to bike-totingly chase after Becky doesn’t mean having to make that choice didn’t traumatize her. We KNOW she’s hurt.
And therefore, saying that she should neglect her own trauma and dance around Becky is not right either.
I mean, my opinion is that dancing around Becky is helping her feel better about herself and is the grounding she needs right now with her entire world upending itself on her, so dancing around Becky IS the right answer at the moment, and she should keep doing that, and it’s a good sign that she’s capable of it right now.
Yep, Becky is so ~selfless~ and ~giving~ that she tagged along with her best friend/longtime crush Joyce on her trip home. A trip that was supposed to be JOYCE’S time to rest and recuperate after a back-to-back series of traumas, and is now instead All About Becky (again), complete with Good Ol’ Becky cracking jokes about the time she pulled a surprise kiss on Joyce, WHICH JOYCE SPECIFICALLY TOLD HER SHE WAS UNCOMFORTABLE WITH AND ASKED HER TO STOP.
And that’s WITH Becky leaving her new girlfriend behind (who is notably not good with social signals and relationships in general) without having a proper conversation with her about why she’s doing this, as is apparent from the fact that Becky suddenly feels guilty when reminded that, oh yeah, SHE HAS A GIRLFRIEND.
But that’s all right. Becky has suffered. She’s EARNED this.
Because fucking 4CHAN is LESS close-minded and hypocritical when it comes to the characters in this comic these days and I don’t understand, I TRUSTED the posters here, I trusted Willis, I thought reading this would make me a better person and it has in so many ways but it’s getting things wrong in BIG ways that practically no one here is willing to admit and this point it would be a goddamn relief for someone to tell me the problem is all in my head and all in my privilege, but it’s all gone wrong and I hate it.
Maybe ya’ just need some tea. I know that helps me calm down when I’m stressed. I like mixing in a just a little bit of honey to give it a sweet flavor.
Don’t really have nothin’ for all that butthurt though.
Well for starters, you are objectively wrong about Becky making things “about her”, because all she did was say hi to her best friend’s mom before she went all fundinator on her for existing. Becky also told Joyce she’d come with to support her, with Dina’s full knowledge since she was right there when they had this conversation, and Becky said goodbye to Dina off-panel when Hank and Joyce were talking. It’s mentioned and everything.
Like, yeah, if Becky was going “I totes kissed you without your consent lawl” two strips ago then that is undeniably shitty, but otherwise I think you’re missing a lot of context.
4chan’s got a bad rep, as if it’s some sort of hivemind. There’s people of lots of differing opinions on there but most people just focus on the bad parts because they’d prefer to box everyone in.
Certain sites create these cultures around themselves. To use an innocuous example we’re all familiar with, it’s like us making drum jokes and purposefully typing bongo instead of a certain anti-woman slur. Except in 4chan’s case, it’s homophobia, misogyny, transphobia, racism and antisemitism, and probably lots of others I can’t remember offhand. It’s not present in every sentence on every board, but there’s this…miasma of it hovering never far off.
Oh, sure there’s lots of that. No one censors themselves because they don’t have to. But honestly, once you get past that miasma, I can actually have some pretty interesting discussions. And sure, there’s times when I feel like I’m in an uphill battle against people who’re bigots who’ll never change but I’ve honestly had just as many situations where the opposite is true. So long as your strong enough to get through all the bullshit you can usually find like minded people. And because of their anonymity you get an odd sense that they’re not putting on a facade just to please people or stay within the guidelines.
4chan experienced a mass exodus since moot decided to abdicate and sell the site to a third party after a certain debacle I won’t deign to mention by name. Sadly this means a lot of the comradery that once existed isn’t there anymore and the userbase is far smaller.
As for miasma… yes, but at the same time it’s honest – more so then any other social gathering spot I’ve ever seen. You just learn to tune out certain things – it’s like banner blindness but applies to comments.
Personally, I used to frequent /b/, but it’s been years. Now I frequent /d/ for my… needs.
@Yotomoe and DarkVeghetta That’s just it. If this is what they’re like when they’re not putting on a facade and being honest…well, frankly, I don’t need to waste my valuable time on them. Handwaving toxic and dehumanizing bigotry (I’ve seen screenshots that literally made me feel ill) with “yeah, but it’s honest” makes me feel uncomfortable for reasons I can’t quite articulate this early.
@Shiro
Yeah, there’s assholes on 4chan. But I do like the fact that people tend to not put up as much of a facade. I might not like certain people but I like it even less when people act a certain way or need to censor themselves because they’re worried that they’ll get hated for it. Once again keep in mind that 4chan isn’t all one board. Believe it or not I’ve seen plenty of moments when someone has been educated about issues or even received sympathy for something. Things which may not have happened had they not had the courage to ask a questionable thing or even say something that’s incorrect and be corrected. And yeah, there’ll always be edge-lords who try to say the worst thing because they think it’s funny. So if you can’t stand that kind of thing, then yeah, definitely don’t check it out. But I refute that it’s just some sort of hivemind of hateful spited people and to look down on someone for using it isn’t good.
Being the origin of a large number of modern hate movements, harassment campaigns, doxing hubs, and a general culture of enforced apathy where caring about anything or having a personality are seen as (homophobic slur) behavior.
And the thing about the chans is that no one who’s ever tried and point me to the so-called “good” part of 4chan has ever not pointed me to a /wordsgohere/ that wasn’t utterly choked with normalized sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and racism.
And the central problem that causes that is that the culture is all about being anonymous. Being the “norm”. But in our fucked up culture, the “norm”, what is seen as “normal” and “without identity” is a white cis straight dude. And so white cis straight dude culture rules and dominates over everything else.
It’s why channers have convinced themselves it’s ironically okay to call each other (homophobic slurs) all the time and throw around the t-slur more often than a pack of frat bros harassing a trans-woman on the street. Why the chans have demonized identity and why most minority members end up having to escape them in order to start feeling good about themselves in any way.
It’s why /pol/ has come to define them. Fuck, it’s why /pol/ is now the central recruiting station for the online presence of white supremacists and neo-nazis and why those members have flooded to every other corner of the site. It’s why it’s seemed “ironically” normal to post old-school anti-semitic images. It’s why sexism is so rife that it’s almost hard to notice, because it is simply everywhere.
It’s why the reputation of the chans is garbage despite all the totally cool stuff that’s totally happening in my corner. In many ways, it’s like Reddit in that way. There might be a corner with less awful and that may feel like a really okay place, but it is stewing in such raw sewage and has been so toxic to anyone marginalized that they’ve all left or gone silent about it, that no one is daring to bring up internally how awful it all is.
And if it feels I am being unfair, then tough. I’ve seen too many good friends have their lives ruined simply because some chan fucks targeted them for being feminists online or because they’ve participated in BLM or because they dared be trans women in gaming. So tough shit to your feelings regarding my “fairness”.
I mean, that’s pretty much true of any place on the internet though.
Hell the world even. We don’t live in a utopia because people have different opinions and ideas, which is a GOOD thing mind you, but it also has the drawback and having shitbags exist who can’t respect their fellow human being.
Still hasn’t stopped me from finding good people on 4chan. Of course they get outnumbered by the bad quickly enough, I’ve seen people try to help each other there as much as I have on tumblr or twitter. It’s all about those little moments of sunshine during a cloudy day.
I encounter enough of “the world” in my day-time running hours. Of having to “weather being outnumbered by the bad”, that I’m wary of apologetics for doing so, but much more intensely and with way more violent social hatred for vulnerability, as part of one’s recreation time.
Like, I wear enough armor just getting through my typical day. So the idea of putting on even more just to weather a never-ending avalanche of (homophobic slur) being added on to every noun on the planet and uttered every 5.2 nanoseconds really doesn’t appeal to me.
And a side effect of that is that I tend to side-eye defenses of it, because I feel that those who can ignore it are doing so either at their own expense or out of an immense amount of privilege of not being the target of those types of slur or casual hatreds.
Which, everyone has a right to find community where they can, but the chans are definitely one of those things that make me wary from the get-go.
I definitely feel like you should avoid 4chan. Any merit others can find in it would be much to overshadowed by all of the other stuff. I don’t think you could handle the toxicity of the site. Hell, sometimes it’s enough for me to need to step away. It can be shitty but honestly I feel the same way about tumblr, youtube, or any other sites for that matter. That’s why it’s always a good idea to disconnect from the internet for a while. It may seem hard because of how much it penetrates our society but honestly, just little things like not going online, turning off your phone for a while (unless you’ve got important calls), just listening to the world around you and not getting the constant stream of information can be liberating. Not that the real world is always perfect, but it’s certainly better than closing yourself off from it. And not just the world of people. But the world in general. Personally my favorite past-time is drawing people on the train, and listening to the dialects of inner city people.
Indeed. I’ve had a long history of diving into all sorts of toxicity (used to write for a snark blog going into the depths of the worst of right-wing articles and mocking the intense bigotry and vileness within) and unpacking it for funsies, fighting with bob-awful trolls and eviscerating them. But it gets exhausting and these days, with teaching and still being in emotional recovery, I’ve drifted from those as SIWOTIng all the time was bad for my health.
Here’s my little corner of internet I still mess with for the most part and for the rest I lurk and do real-world stuff instead.
@Cerberus:
“modern hate movements” – hate ain’t always a bad thing. At times it’s quite apt and well-deserved, and from my experience that’s just what most of those where – well, except for the occasional troll pool takeover, those are just silly.
“enforced apathy” – quite the opposite… well, depends on the board. If you want apathy, try wizardchan (no, don’t – it’s by far the wost place I’ve ever seen online or irl) – THAT place is apathy.
“having a personality are seen as (homophobic slur) behavior” – 4chan does have an interesting enforced social conformity within each board. Mind you, the each board has a very different take on most issues, but the outside world likes to conflate them into one 4chan viewpoint – something that rarely actually exists.
“And so white cis straight dude culture rules and dominates over everything else.” – /d/ begs to differ.
“in order to start feeling good about themselves” – the only chan that I know of that would cater to such things would be it’s pony board (created by bronies after a titanic battle using the powers of tolerance and friendship). Aside from that no place on 4chan is intended to make one feel good about themselves (maybe /fit/?). Each board scratches a very specific set of itches, but always in a anonymous way.
Ugh… /pol/. No one likes those guys, not even /b/.
“if it feels I am being unfair” – yes and no. Just coming from a different perspective. To use a native chan phrase: “/b/ was never good”, though I’m taking it out of context.
@Ctrl+C D@
“having shitbags exist” – in spades, sadly. Still, it’s good to know your enemy.
“It’s all about those little moments of sunshine duri
ng a cloudy day.” – I’ve seen quite a lot of suicidal threads on /b/ and the response was mostly one of compassion and often really good advice (ofc, also malice and ridicule, but those where in the minority for once).
@Cerb again
“I encounter enough of “the world” in my day-time running hours. ” – Personally I usually don’t interact with such… elements. Hence it’s a strange sort of tonic to have a place where I know I’ll meet them.
@Yotomoe
So, you’re talking more about introspection and a pause to being social? I fully agree. Constant interactions with others can and will eventually become tiresome and stressful – it’s important for
me personally to have periods of self-reflection and solitude. I find such in single player gaming, usually.
@Cerb
“and do real-world stuff instead”
We’ve designed a collective dream, but we brought our nightmares – waking up is sometimes preferable.
“turning off teacher mode” – we’re all teachers and students, to some or another.
Bwuh? What “hate movements” from 4chan do you think are a good thing? I’ll grant that some stuff Anonymous does is good, but that’s (1) really separate from 4chan proper and (2) even that is balanced out by flat out trolling–since “for the lolz” seems to most often mean “enjoying the misery of others.” Plus (3), the good stuff Anonymous does is pretty much always an attack, not spreading hate per se.
The problem with 4chan is the anonymity. It’s the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory at it’s worst. Without moderation, it just inevitably brings in the worst people. Then it’s basically self-perpetuating.
It’s actually the one place that made me question my basic assumption that most people are generally decent. I had to remind myself that most people don’t like the crap that goes on there. Even those of you defending it admit that you have to find diamonds in a sea of dung.
The hate movements I speak of are not merely people who hate, but legitimately recognized by SPLC hate movements and the things they are doing aren’t just being angry and hateful or making casual slurs a common thing, but actively plotting as a group to literally ruin someone’s life and try and drive them to suicide. Just to clarify myself.
I mean, I do believe that the chans have normalized a base line of hate and toxicity that is a general underlying culture and I see it in the “well at least it’s not X” excuses for things like the ubiquity of referring to literally everyone as a form of (homophobic slur) in the “nice” parts, but when I mean “modern hate movements” I mean that in the sense of things that the SPLC keeps an eye on.
trikly – I think that’s a big part of it. I think it’s also a matter of who is presumed to be conversing. We messy humans have always assumed our privileged members to be our default humans, so when you have a community of “defaults” without “identity”, it creates and codifies whiteness, maleness, straightness, cisness, and so on. And that just marks the base culture on which awful is added.
And given how awful general culture is, it’s really noteworthy when cultures like the chans somehow manage to be worse. And that’s before factoring in the things like the doxxing campaigns, literal white supremacists on /pol/, and the whole edgelord culture of saying the most awful things possible for the lulz that tends to flourish in places like /b/.
4chan has a bad reputation that it 100% earned through its concerted effort to nurture a climate of unremitting hostility towards anyone not cis, straight, white, and male. There are no “good” parts of 4chan there are parts that look good in contrast to its worst parts but are actually still pretty rife with the same shit just less gleefully so.
I hope that was an inelegant turn of a phrase. It’s one thing to tolerate the bad because you like the good, but you still would ideally want it to be all good.
And I don’t really think that 4chan is honest. A whole lot of people there are lying because anonymity means there are no consequences for doing so.
@DarkVeghetta That’s about as valid of a point as someone saying they support Trump because “at least he’s honest.” Like, a) not even actually all that honest and b) being honest about how unrepentantly awful they are is not laudable. I’ll take insincere tolerance over honest bigotry any day thank you very much. I’m a-okay with people keeping their dehumanizing and awful opinions to themselves and pretending to be decent human beings.
@ Emily
A) by “honest, they mean they don’t try and censor themselves to please the general populace. (mostly) They still lie and make stuff up all the time, obviously
B)Again, you’re implying ever part of 4chan is just people saying, doing, or acting on awful things. There’s different boards and threads for all kinds of people and while there’s shitty people on 4chan, there’s also really cool people. And lumping them all together as if 4chan is a big breeding ground of scum just inaccurate. Some people are honest AND kind.
And on that note I’ll say, I’d honestly prefer sincere intolerance from insincere intolerance, because at the very least I can argue against the former. And it may be an uphill battle sometimes but the best way for someone to learn or adjust their behavior is to put all of their feelings out in the world and have others pick it apart and put more insight on it. Instead of holding your tongue, bottling it up, and only releasing it in places where you KNOW people will be like minded or by voting or something.
But that’s just me personally :P.
Soooo much this. Every defense of the chans and places like Reddit I’ve seen have all been “dude, there’s this corner that’s actually pretty great” and when I’ve followed their links I see message boards flooded with casual slurs or side-tracks into how all women are evil for not dating lonely neckbeards. Just draining and toxic places that view themselves as better because there’s so much worse on the same board and at least they’re not stooping that low.
It’s… San Francisco Syndrome. What I mean by that is that SF has a reputation for being extremely liberal (compared to the rest of America) and this is often treated as something of pride, but also stymies additional progress, because so many in the city believe that the liberal reputation should carry them through and they don’t actually have to work hard to continue growing things and improving life for people.
And people were very shocked when I moved into that area right out of Denmark and found the culture awful in comparison because “but we’re so much better than the rest of the culture”. Which was true, but was also a major backwards step compared to the Danish culture I was enjoying previously. Relativity makes blinders for us all.
The “honesty” argument:
I see that said about places like the chans a lot. Hey, at least it’s an honest bigotry. Except as people note, the chans are still filled with constant lies, most damningly that everyone is straight and white and hates the targets everyone is expected to hate. And that leads into the problem, “honest” bigotry is treated as not really “honest” when people call it out and that’s because what it is is just a festering wound of open bigotry that feels sustained and empowered by the culture that surrounds it. It’s a Southern town that doesn’t believe it’ll face any legal repercussions for shooting at black people who wander in the “wrong part of time”.
That’s not novel or enriching or having an honesty. It’s bigotry without fear of censure by the surrounding culture. And well, there’s already enough of that in our daily society.
I can’t get on board with the “sincere intolerance is better than insincere tolerance” bandwagon. Yeah, the insincere kind sucks, but at least there’s an acknowledgement it’s bad. The open intolerance just feeds back on itself and gets worse and nastier as more people find support for their prejudices. And that can lead to actual actions that never would have happened with that support.
And wrapping it all back around, isn’t that where we are in the comic? In a little community that’s sincerely intolerant. That supported Ross’s bigotry until he went after his own daughter with a gun and some of whom support him still, even if he went a little too far. That doesn’t happen without the reinforcement.
There’s also the thing that what makes bigots feel “safer” to vomit forth their hatred without “censors” is also what makes it unsafe for everyone else. It’s why comment thread moderation was invented in the first place. Cause if you have to be tough enough to weather endless streams of bigots simply to participate, you make it easier to have communities that are dominated by said bigots. And that’s the tragedy that befell /pol/ taking it from something awful beyond all reason to the literal main online recruitment hub for white supremacist groups.
@TheJeff
If we’re using the comic as a reference, we still have Mr. Brown, Joyce’s father, who not only didn’t like ross, but (while it’s possibly begrudgingly) accepts her.
I say this to say is that your argument depends on the idea that everyone on 4chan is just awful.
Now I’m not a pure angel or anything, but I like to think I’m pretty cool. I don’t have any issues with gay people or people of other races or religions, and while over the years I’ve become increasingly aware of trans people and had growing pains, I always try to call people by how they identify because I think first and foremost I should respect people.
I say that to say that while I understand I have shortcomings in certain areas, I’m not just a complete hateful nazi propaganda monster. Neither are any of my friends that use it as far as I can tell you. Most of us either avoid those parts of it, or just but heads with people we disagree with. And while you may say we’re the exception to the rule, I’ll say that these kinds of people make up a good 40% of the site.
You don’t have to go to 4chan. And you don’t have to like it, either. But, and I mean you might so this might be a moot point, if you think I’m just a generally shitty person because I go on there I going to have to say that I disagree. If you DO hate me though, then I guess that’s something I’ll have to accept. 😛
Nobody is saying that everyone who uses 4chan is automatically an evil bigot that’s a ridiculous misrepresentation of what’s being said. 4chan AS A COMMUNITY has a toxic culture that perpetuates and normalizes prejudice. This no more means every user is a bigot than my saying that America is not a progressive nation means that every American is a reactionary.
Then I can concede to that. I just don’t like it when people try to box everyone into “groups” based on where they’re from or what they do. Because you can be a real cool person who uses 4chan. And you can be a piece of shit on tumblr. :3
Pretty much what Emily said.
I don’t have enough experience with 4chan to say much about it. I was speaking specifically to the broader idea that honest bigotry is a better policy than insincere tolerance.
Calling out the bigotry, not letting it go unchallenged and become normal works. Slowly and over the long run, but it does work. Tolerating the bigots works too, if what you want is more of them.
Of course. Good people can thrive, find community and can be awesome even from toxic communities. In thejeff’s parallel we see it with Becky, Joyce, and Hank’s growth in comic. And in Emily’s parallel we see it in all the awesome Americans.
Hell, I grew up in a general culture way worse than even the chans and hopefully I’ve stumbled out more or less all right in my adulthood.
It’s like the fact that people can enjoy problematic fiction, people are people and try and make good (or bad) wherever they go, no matter what surrounds them and can be sustained by things with negative elements to them (Bob knows that if I needed perfect cultures or fiction, I’d have no culture at all).
It’s just a shame that the baseline of toxicity is so high on chans to the detriment of any good people who try and use it.
@Yotomoe Well, we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one, because I absolutely do think less of people who self-identify as 4channers, especially ones who insist 4chan is better than [other more socially conscious space], for the reasons I’ve stated.
I guess I can’t stop ya from doing that. Hope it doesn’t mean you dislike me too, but I guess so long as you’re cool about it it’s not too big a deal. I’d rather not worry myself.
Its not your ( just ) you privilege thats failing you.
Its your sociopathic lack of empathy for people different from you.
Faux News( ? ) has taught you that their is a hierarchy of people that deserve your empathy and protection, and some people are just outside that.
Oner comic cant fix what wrong in your head. Joyce is the straight-sheltered blonde-haired Blue-eyed innocent christian Naif Straight Girl. Youve been taught she always must be rescued. ( Even though shes kick-ass strong, punches without a second thought and Knocked out Toe-dad )
The red-headed spunky lesbian … shes outside your circle of empathy entirely. She doesnt a family a loves to you . even though shes lost the most.
But this is where you are screwed up the most! Becky is here FOR her friend. She is here out of concern. She explains this explicitly. You ought to be empathizing with Beckys desire to protect Joyce from her toxic family dynamics. Instead you are playing “hate the lesbian” .
Maybe youve been taught that men cant be vulnerable at all. or upset. And maybe you see becky as ‘the guy’ to Joyces fem. So how dare becky not be Stoic and play out a toxic male gender role where only women are alowed to get hurt, feel and suffer.
Because If you stop thinking like that for one moment , you will realize whatever crazy shit you are going through in real life, you have a right to feel that too.
And why isnt someone comforting you?
( my guess is that you are pushing people away, lashing out, getting your social cues from 4 chan!! literally the worst place in the world to learn how not be a socially awkward asshole ) .
Now that youve done ‘straight-splain how’ Lesbians cant even talk about kissing— without it being Homo-talk-rape . Maybe you can tell us her undercut is Homohair assault.
I mean, Joyce is entitled to not having lurid comments directed at her. She’s told Becky she doesn’t want her to say that, and then she (maybe, Cerberus put forth that she was referring to how happy she was to see Joyce again for the first time in weeks, which is something I happily ascribe to) went and did it anyway, referring to the time she kissed her without her consent. That ain’t cool no matter who you are. I don’t get to accuse my straight dude friends of biphobia if they aren’t comfortable with me hitting on them, and even if it was wholly motivated by prejudice I’m still not entitled to it.
And like, it’s not really that horrible and catastrophic, since Becky was under unimaginable amounts of fear and duress after everything that happened and built up a narrative where Joyce must have been in love with her all along, and then later apologized for it (whereupon Joyce flat out told her she wasn’t mad and that she never felt unsafe with her), but if Becky was treating that like some kind of badge of honor, that she’s glad she forcibly kissed Joyce, then, well, that’s super crappy.
And then following it up with the best consent practices of literally everyone in the comic. With Dina she has never once made the first move other than expressing interest, because that conversation with Joyce about her sexual assault has her on hyper-vigilance mode and she never again wants to be a person who surprise kisses and risks triggering that sort of thing.
So it’d just be wildly out of character for her to have been making a “lol, remember that time I just straight up kissed you out of the blue and could have seriously triggered your PTSD” type comment.
Yep. Becky’s a bit flippant but otherwise has been incredibly respectful of Joyce’s boundaries and goes into Best Friend Panic Mode whenever she feels she’s crossed a boundary (well okay like one time she said Joyce making weird faces was a turn on but whatever, NBD, and that was during her very first coming out to an audience).
It’s probably just because the dog was slobbering all over Joyce that I associated her “been there” comment with the kiss, rather than just being ecstatic to see Joyce again.
Look all that may be true.
But Becky isnt accusing Joyce of homophobia. Your analogy misses.
Your homophobia detector is wildly, wildly miscalibrated.
( take the batteries out ? You put them in backwards, maybe?
what OP system are running? windows xp? )
Freaking out over Talk of homo kissing in public is almost always hysterical homophobia. Its a thing. really.
No becky hasn’t Tormented Joyce with it, and Joyce even bragged about it once. They are friends, In due time it will be a running Joke.
She didnt “forcibly Kiss Joyce” . She led up to it. It was romantic, if shocking for Joyce and becky in retrospect. Joyce even led her on ( accidentally ) .
It was no more “forced” than when Dorothy Kissed Walky.
If you didnt ragequit the comic when Sal had a slipshine after kidnapping Jason, TA ; please dont slut-shame Becky over an innocent Kiss.
One day @Spencer, I hope a hot Chic or sexy dude you like and trust ,
and are good friends with , snuggles close to you and gives you a sexy liplock —without a prenup contract first signed in triplicate in blood. i hope that happens to you.
Maybe youlll even get an instant boner and fall in love; and be miserable for years. It can be happen.
These are things I strongly disagree with, and I think are worthy of being mocked.
But @Spencer has ( in the past ) also falsely accused me of Bi-phobia and Bi stereotypes, *for merely describing my own non-straight life* , That I am OK with it. So, not totally a stranger.
I’m not in an environment ( socially ) where same-sex affection is considered shameful, and needs to be hid.
If @Spencer Is , ( implied by his comment ) he should consider before pushing that idea onto others.
Or educating the ignorant straight people in his life instead of gunning for the non-straight ones.
Or re-considering the ways hes been falsely-shamed.
I do think Bi and pan people’s rights need to protected from double prejudice in both communities ( gay and straight ) . But the price for that is renouncing straight or passing privilege. Not being the enforcer of heteronormative conformity, or defending straight privilege . Especially in an anonymous forum where it cost nothing.
That foreshadowing was Checkovs first gay-kiss , and great writing on Willis part. Seriously @Willis, sometimes your writing in this comic is a glorious symphony. )
In fact re-reading this, its obvious the subtle joke of Beckys you were objecting to ( regarding Joyces dog ) is a call-back to Joyce accusing Becky of “Slobbering” all over Walky.
Would Joyce have even gotten kissed, if she hadnt put that idea in Beckys head?
Now that we know Joyce has a boisterous slobbering dog, that hyperbole of Joyce’s makes it look like Joyce was thinking about a kiss from Becky.
Becky would have known this.
Treating this kiss as any different ( or problematic ) from all the other first kisses in the story, is a homophobic bias: One that isnt written in the story.
Whether this mere conversation ( about same-sex affection, feelings or past actions ) is by Becky.
Or you, to your friends.
Or by me.
And I think its toxic, for you, to put that out there. **
Talking about same-sex affection is OK — even if it sometimes makes straight people uncomfortable. That’s a definition of straight-privilege.
I know you are not-straight, and I respect that.
But that doesn’t absolve all privilege. Passing Privilege is also real. I know, because I have it.
I dont think your character is somehow inherently wrong, or in some irredeemable way. But i dont think you fully considered how it wasnt supported in the text, or the burden it imposes on other non-straight people.
I do think this is a position you shouldnt defend or enforce toward other non-straight people.
I agree with a lot of the things you write elsewhere. ( You were 100% spot-on regarding defending Carla ). Nor do I mean this in a condescending way ( as I Re-read my comment before sending )
Nor am I going to read into your character that you are choosing to be a Giant X . ( like you may have me. )
From your comments here and elsewhere, I think you may be in a mildly defensive or homo or biphobic environment; one where you feel you need to be too-ideal of example of a Bi person, never confirming a stereotype ( i know whats that like because Ive lived it )
— yet while accepting and enforcing a hierarchy that makes a straight-tagged and hetero-normativist tropes as preferred.
( this comment would grow to be ridiculously long If I had to google all these prior other examples, list them as evidence, too; and dissect them ) .
At this point in my life, I reject both.
You have in the past even called me biphobic and claimed I was making bi-stereotypes, for simply describing **my actual lived non-straight life.** .
So under those circumstances, I might be incorrect ( that you feel very defensive under a heteroconformist social environment and are projecting outward, from that. ) but its a very fair assessment based on our prior conversations and your comment above. I could be wrong, But I think I am being fair and even-handed.
Based off my reactions I received from @Cerbero @Shiro I am going to honestly consider that the way I wrote to you before , was counter-productive, I may have come across like a Giant D-bag, and may owe you an apology for that too.
If I over-reacted or misunderstood what you meant, please consider forgiving me. I was certain i did understand, because in some past comment ( which due to being an imperfect human I could be misremembering ) you explained your problem with Becky/Joyce kiss and made a minor fuss about it.
Last but not least, the last time I cursed* a non-straight person to fall in love,
( which I was most definitely implying above ) the curse took quickly and he was gay-married within the year.
*The cursee was dissing same-sex marriage . Totally deserved )
** I dont need an apology. Nothing like ( a) Love ( curse ) to make us feel foolish . or eat our words. Or kiss our best friends in Beckys case.
Every time you post I feel like I need to mace my computer screen. Like, with an actual spiked club.
Anyway, everything you’ve added today has been complete garbage, including your wholly insincere apology for being such a skeevy prick to me, so I’m just gonna sum it up.
Becky kissed Joyce without her consent. Regardless of reasoning, this is awful to do. Becky realizes this, and later apologized for it. If she’s joking about it here, then that is terrible, so I’m choosing to believe she isn’t.
I’ve accused you of biphobia in the past because you’ve said dumb biphobic shit like “bisexuals are incapable of monogamy” and “Danny can’t know he’s monogamous until he sleeps with Ethan.” So, you know, I’m pretty okay slamming you with that. That’s a label you totally deserve when you say outrageously stupid bullshit.
And then you go again with trying to make judgements of my life, insisting I’m trying to live up to some “ideal bisexual” standard and invoking, of all the gross shit you could, my “passing privilege.” So kindly go fuck yourself.
@Shiro, Please contextualize my comment.
I was **not** making a general statement about consent. It was only about first kisses ( which almost always use non-verbal cues ) especially as related in-comic.
I was only pushing back on the homophobic idea that Becky violated Joyce with an innocent Kiss. And that it was so somehow shameful and must never ever be obliquely referenced.
In this case someone was offended That Becky making a self-deprecating about Joyce boisterous dog was shameful and bad for Joyce’s mental health.
Thats a homophobic reading of Joyces and beckys first ( and probably only reading ) . Its from the same ubiquitous cultural well that straight people need to be protected from the sight and thought of same-sex affection.
if you feel that way, we will just have to agree to disagree.
@Shiro TLDR Flipping an argument *defending straight privilege*,
into one of triggering a violation of consent, is what I was satirizing.
Straight culture doesnt ask my consent to display or talk of Het affection. YMMV
Quote: “I’ve never been anxious about going home before”. This was never going to be a pleasant trip and was always going to be one where Joyce was going to be hyper-anxious about the ways in which she has changed and the loss of faith she is undergoing and where at least one argument about Becky was going to surface.
I’ve been there where Joyce has been, going off to the obligation family visit that you know will drain you when you’re already bone dry. This was always something to survive, not refresh her. Becky’s invitation was thus 100% altruistic, an offer of a friendly face by the literal only person who could have gone with her to deflect off some of the awful. And honestly?
It’s worked. Carol seems to be targeting Becky as the “corruptor” and thus will be much more likely to leave Joyce alone. It’s hell on Becky, but it succeeds in the main goal of making this visit home not complete shit for Joyce.
Everything else you say stems from similarly inaccurate premises and I would argue reveals a biased way of perceiving the motivations and behavior of a brash lesbian character. That is not to say you are an awful person. But rather to say that internalized and unintentional biases are easy to acquire in our fucked up society.
Especially if say… you’ve been stewing in the incredibly toxic and homophobic chan cultures. Jus’ saying.
You know what totes wouldn’t have been selfish, thoughtless or irresponsible ?
Picking kisses and lustful partying over guilttrip weekend in the Jesus community.
I mean, really everyone is so correct that Becky is just being so unbelievably selfish here for not choosing a relaxing weekend in her cozy new room, kissing and snuggling her girlfriend and enjoying herself while her best friend whose been acting off in genuinely concerning (is she going to harm herself) ways and who has been terrified of going home, faced her parents alone, standing up for her decision to support you even though that puts her at odds with them.
That would have been so much more selfless than going to a community that hates her, a home she didn’t fully know would be supportive and definitely a place she was going to face a lot of casual hatred and victim-blame, and be separated from her loved one just to support said friend as she promised.
*roll eyes*
Yeah, I’m with you. The lengths people are going to justify shitting on a very selfless and caring individual and view her as selfish against all evidence is genuinely upsetting and honestly, given my life experiences, not just a little triggering.
Like, fuck, I’ve actually been there. Going through hell but spending all my time trying to help everyone who was just catching the reflected trauma of my hell. Cursing myself the whole time for “hurting” everyone in my life and being told constantly by my family that I was selfish and hurting my family with my “selfish” demands to be myself and try and keep myself alive.
And when you sacrifice and sacrifice and you’re still told you’re selfish, you start to believe it implicitly. That there’s no end you can go to not be a toxic stain on everyone’s life. And you can’t even let yourself die because that’d just be another toxicity on their plate. But you can encourage them all to leave you to protect themselves. Leave you alone to deal with it all. Let everyone you have ever loved go, because you’re existence is hurting them all too much…
seeing a lot of folks here who seem to think that either Joyce or Becky or both Joyce and Becky are somehow at fault here. i think it’s highly unlikely that Joyce is doing anything but genuinely trying to comfort Becky – it’s kind of her thing. and while Becky definitely should have stopped and thought before going through with the trip, i don’t think that’s any reason to say Dina deserves better or anything like that. i find it hard to be angry at Becky when it’s obvious that all the “bad” things she does are just mistakes brought on by impulsivity and emotion, and i think if she realizes she’s in the wrong, she’ll apologize.
tl;dr stop being so hard on these two (especially Becky), neither of them are self-aware and they’ve -both- been through a lot.
There is no fault here on either of them. Becky did the right thing when she chose to go with Joyce. Both for herself – to find out what the attitudes of her ‘second family’ are once and for all, if nothing else – and for Joyce, giving her the strength to stand up against horribleness, an anchor to recognize what is and isn’t horrible, and moral support in just someone who agrees with her being there.
Joyce hasn’t done anything wrong here either. She’s being awesome and amazing and supportive, and I am really happy to see that (1) Becky’s support works (centering Joyce on moral values she’s sure of) and (2) Becky’s being supported.
Sometimes, taking care of someone else is the best self-care you can do. That’s why people have pets and pot plants. Joyce and Becky are being anchors in a sea of shittiness for each other, and it’s helping them both.
Hey everyone… I know I’ve been doing these periodic begs a lot lately and I’m sorry if they’re starting to get annoying, but could everyone, um, just stop for a second and think before writing a “Becky is so selfish and is an awful girlfriend” type post. Like, I’m not saying don’t write that if that’s what you’re feeling, but just…
I’ve kinda been on the end of a lot of those, especially when I was working super hard to not be homeless and to deal with my family trying to angle me into reparative therapy and disownment and I was being discriminated out of my job and the stress of everything was ripping my longest ever relationship apart. Like all the time, it was kinda my parents favorite line of attack and it really fucked me up.
And I know, those are my own triggers and I own them and I’m not asking for sympathy, but could everyone just take a second to think about maybe if they really want to make the “this incredibly hard-sacrificing girl is so unbelievably selfish” type arguments right now and if maybe there’s a different argument you could make instead. Hell, you can even still hate Becky irrationally, just maybe, could we not continue to have this thread be nothing but “grr, Becky is selfish” posts?
Popping by to say I appreciate the time and thought you put into unpacking the nuanced actions of these characters, and I’m sorry some posters can’t register complex characterisation. Nonetheless, if writing rebuttals to each unfair judgement takes a toll on you, please go easy on yourself and let some of the others take over for a while. Sympathy and hugs.
Cerberus, Sweetie. I think it’d be best for your own mental health to take a break from the comments. I feel like they’re emotionally exhausting for you and the fact that you have to constantly make posts like this shows me that it’s incredibly personal for you. Everyone is bound to have different opinions, that’s just how humans are. And it’s honestly easier to just try to step back from a situation that stresses you out than to try to get everyone to change or cease voicing their opinions. I’m not saying you can’t still comment on here but I’d say just a leave a comment or two and just step away for a while. It can be very liberating, I’m speaking from personal experience.
Thank you very much for your concern. I fully acknowledge everyone has different opinions, opinions that are no less personal for them, hence their desire to share them as I do mine. And I’m not trying to censor anyone from their statements. Nor am I asking others to be responsible for my triggers or my mental health. As you say, I’m free at any point to walk away when it gets too much and that is indeed part of my self-care protocol.
So yes, I thank you for having that regard and care for me, but this sort of thing is personal for me and affecting largely because it is familiar. Not just to bad events in my past but moments after it and pushing back at the attitudes that entrench these attitudes where institutional -isms and victim-blaming lead to this sort of almost alien negative reactions to victims existing is kind of important.
Not at the expense of my mental health, mind you, but where I can because those attitudes are central to a lot of awful that directly affects me and mine and part of my self-care for these sorts of triggers where I am back in a time of absolute powerlessness is to stand up for my voice and power and speak out against stuff like that.
I do indeed intend not to do so at the expense of others and their right to say what they want, but I will also call out some of the bullshit to the extent it is not a negative imposition to my own mental health.
And yes, tangled_y, I agree very much about the importance of picking one’s battles. But thank you very much as well for your well-intentioned advice as well.
In large part because you can and should take a break if you feel it’s best for you, I want to thank you for keeping up the fight. Reading about your experiences has (I hope) given me a better sense of how to be good to the transfolk that cross my path and any that might find a deeper place in my life.
Yotomoe, since Cerberus gave you such a polite response, I’m gonna give you the flipside. Your “Maybe this is too much for you to handle” attitude on this page is dismissive and rude, and you really need to stop it.
Maybe. This is just one of the many times I’ve seen them make a post like this. It seems to be troubling them a lot. If I’m playing a video game and constantly losing and getting super frustrated and someone tells me I need to step away for a minute, I think it’s a good idea. I’m a sensitive soul and I honestly thing stepping away from stressful situations is underrated. I don’t mean to imply that Cerberus is weak. I’m just saying it does you some good to step away for a bit.
It came off like this to me too. Maybe because of the “sweetie”? Whether or not it was intended to sound condescending, consider this a note for future successful communication.
Speaking as a transwoman, I found that it’s best to let go of trying to fight every wacko with a warped view of the world and instead to focus on not letting them affect your own worldview.
Speaking as a Canadian, believe me when I say we’re not some leftist utopia. We have our own issues. In spades.
Google “Canadian Residential School Abuse” if you want to see some of it on the racism front. Or “Rehtaeh Parsons” if you want to see sexism/rape culture. Or “Amanda Todd” if likewise. Or Shelby Tracy Tom or Rosa Libuz on transphobia. How about the fact that reparative therapy is illegal nowhere here and was actually state-sponsored first-line treatment for trans kids in Ontario until this year?! Or Fred Henry arguing that protections for LGBTQ kids in schools is “totalitarian” and “anti-Catholic”. What about the fact that there is no explicit standards on accessibility in Canadian federal law? There is no such thing as a Canadians with Disabilities Act, frex. If I go on a plane, there’s nothing wrong with the airline demanding that I get my doctor to fill out a $200 form that certifies I am “fit to fly” if I disclose I have asthma and don’t want to be seated next to a cat. Nothing wrong, legally, with them demanding notice more than three weeks in advance. And nothing wrong, legally with them refusing service to me even if I jump through their hoops and even though my asthma is well controlled and therefore at low risk, on account of the fact that I am asthmatic, because there is no law enforcing the fact that I as an asthmatic should have equal access. Canadians with disabilities have fewer protections than Americans with disabilities did in the early 90s before the ADA was passed. Canadians on disability pensions receive as little as $300 CAD per month to live on in some regions, and in many they have to be re-evaluated by their doctors on a yearly basis to make sure they still need the pension – even if, as in one case that hit the news recently, they are on disability because the trade they were trained in requires they be able-bodied and they lost three of their limbs in Afghanistan. Oh, consider also that if someone wants assistance for vocational training, you have to go off all welfare even if you have no way of paying your bills – and you have to do that before you apply. And your application can be denied. And then you’re up Shit Creek without a paddle because once you voluntarily go off welfare, you can’t get on it again until you re-qualify (which usually means working about three months on full-time hours – so if you’re one of the many young Canadians who has never been able to land a full-time position because companies have figured out that hiring two part-timers to the job of one full-timer is a fuckload cheaper in terms of benefits, better hope you don’t lose your crappy under-paid part time gig, because if you do, you have no way of holding yourself over until you find a new job. What about the fact that a trans rights bill, which would have, among other things, explicitly listed trans people as a “vulnerable population” in need of extra protections against discrimination (yeah, gender identity is not a thing people are protected from discrimination on the basis of here, just FYI) was gutted by our Senate so badly that it was essentially made useless and didn’t pass as a result (because it would have prevented the bill from having effect in prisons, restrooms and crisis centres. Because let’s take the statistically most likely to be sexually victimized population in Canada and require them to be housed and use the bathroom with the statistically most likely to enact the sexual victimization population, and then prevent them from accessing necessary support when they are victimized. Canada: We’re progressive! */sarcasm*)
Like, I know we allowed gay marriage before the States and outlawed slavery earlier and we have socialized medicine. But that does not mean we’re a country that should be uncritically held up as a role model for the American left-wing. Nor does it mean that our past progressiveness is a shield against all the ways in which we are currently regressive assholes.
On a personal note: I feel more nervous on a day-to-day basis about revealing my bisexuality in my city in Canada than I did in the states recently. And I received less shit about my social impairments there than I do here. AND no cops or store people tried to haul me out on the assumption that my speech impediment means I’m high. So. Yeah. Just saying. Canada has some good things about it (socialized medicine being something I quite literally owe my life to on several occasions in several different ways, as one example), but we’re not this perfect role model to be placed on a pedestal.
Have done so (that is, not commented, out of respect and consideration). Several times.
That said, and as others have, if this is so personal and frequently triggering for you, perhaps it would be healthier for you to step back. You need to decide whether the rewards (catharsis, sympathy and support) outweigh the risks (everything else).
Thank you. I will keep that in mind. I think though, my main approach is to just assume the comment thread of any Becky-focused strip is going to be awful. It’s an approach that was of great use for me before and I should heed it so as to not be putting my triggers on others. I’m sorry if it has felt that I’ve been an imposition to you and what you’ve wanted to say in the past.
And I must say I do appreciate the commentary Cerberus. As one who is totally ignorant of what a person who is trans (or hell, gay or lesbian for that matter) must have gone through and likely continues to go through, your comments tend to be…enlightening. While you may need to step back from time to time for your own sake, it is quite obvious that some comments do trigger some intense responses due to your past and that really cannot be helped. Anyway do not stop commenting but do think of yourself too. Getting some of this stuff out may be thereputic at times but may also dredge up awful stuff too that you may not want coming up. I don’t know…maybe I should shut up before I say something thoughtless due to my ignorance. Anyway I do appreciate the comments Cerberus as, like I said, they are enlightening to me.
Oy… now I feel bad for arguing further up without reading through everything first.
Just wanted to drop a note to say how much I appreciate your commentary – even when, as here, I don’t fully agree – and your dedication to sticking up for people (yours and others’, but you’re probably the most prominent voice). That said, you’re not alone, and of course you can and should take a break any time it gets too personal or triggery. Other people can pick up the slack in the meantime, and we’ll still be here when you get back. 🙂
*offers awkward internet hug or handshake or other friendly gesture of choice*
The conflict (from my cozy perch) is between the informed, wise, and generous discussion you bring along every day (seriously, how, it boggles me, like anything in DoA, SFP, or Wilde Life) and the inability for this forum to guarantee a safe space for that. Yay, the internet.
The times that it feels like we’re in Leslie’s class but flooded by a horde of Joes… that shouldn’t be your problem. That should be ours, those of us having fun throwing around banter about the shallower readings (“awww, Dina loves Becky who used to love Joyce who was an item with Ethan who’s into Danny who loves Amazi-Girl therefore DINA TOTES LOVES AMBER”) who are profoundly missing the point that Willis has made by establishing gay teen homelessness in story via both Becky and Leslie, and the context for that of enforcement by the sort who think they’re entitled to use violence. (Did this NOPE NOT SEEING IT go on in the Blaine/Amber storyline?)
Having fun in comments is a big part of what makes them worthwhile (fffft, you should see me over in one of my other favourites), but when it ignores, silences, mocks, or does even worse to the real-world situations Willis is exploring then it needs addressing here within the community, and that shouldn’t fall solely on the shoulders of those who live those situations.
Yours is the most incredible and valuable voice I see in any forum, but you setting boundaries to protect it (because, protecting yourself) is far more important than one of the few voices putting that case.
Because the rest of us should damn well be putting that case, whether you’re speaking on it or not.
“but when it ignores, silences, mocks, or does even worse to the real-world situations Willis is exploring then it needs addressing here within the community, and that shouldn’t fall solely on the shoulders of those who live those situations.”
I do agree with this. I try, every now and then, to do my part. I also hesitate (as in, writing comments that I delete instead of posting), because not living those situations makes it hard for me to not sound “white knight” patronizing in one form or another. But still, that is a poor excuse not to try at all.
Feeling guilty about your desires is completely normal for all of us neurotics, but I can imagine it’s particularly pronounced for people who’ve had a fundie upbringing. Yes of course Becky wanted to be there for Joyce during a rough weekend, but no want is purely altruistic. *She* wants to be The One to stand by the girl she still has feelings for, and this is so normal and human, the desire for exclusivity with the beloved even though you consciously know it’s never going to become a Relationship. I think Becky’s just realising that her motivations for going to Joyce’s aren’t entirely 100% selfless (again- totally normal!), and this is making a guilty squirm happen when she thinks of her girlfriend.
In other news, Joyce’s mom isn’t going to openly disagree with her father, much less intentionally poison anyone with food. Poisoning their mind is another matter entirely.
You know, I have the thought in the back of my head that Carol’s going to bring up Joyce referring to Dorothy as her best friend during the fountain standoff, just to spite Becky.
Awww, her sweetheart is gone, so Dina spends the weekend longing forlornly in her bed, staring into the ceiling while wearing her sweethearts oversized sweater in the hope of catching some lingering smell. Next to her, a shiny new dinosaur book unopened, dinosaur blogs unread and the question on quills unanswered. Dina has found an even bigger mystery than dinosaurs – love.
Like it’s sad, but it’s also so very sweet. I mean, she loves her baby dyke and is just covering herself and surrounding herself in memories even though it’s just a short little weekend absence. She’s got it bad for her Beckers and it’s adorable as all get out.
I’m going to guess that tonight that Becky word balloon is dominating a bit more than the usual litany of dinosaur names.
It’s really odd… I guess it says more about people than the character – This rush to defend and/or throw accusations around on Dina’s behalf. She’s like the fandom’s favourite baby sister and it seems half of it feel the need to go marching around snapping at anyone who makes her feel sad!
Newsflash, guys, Becky didn’t do anything wrong. I do understand why Dina is sad; I get the impression that Becky is Dina’s first really consequential relationship and being without that stimuli must be like someone being forced into sensory deprivation. However, ultimately, this is something that she’s going to have to learn to tolerate or she’s going to become dependent on and possessive of Becky, something that would be very unhealthy.
Speaking of unhealthy: Joyce, stop blaming yourself for things that you didn’t know, couldn’t know and didn’t do because you didn’t know anything about it.
Really? I think it says more about the setup of this comic strip. The juxtaposition of these two scenes are meant to call Joyce’s statements into question, and create sympathy for Dina.
And I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Dina to feel a bit abandoned when her girlfriend takes off early in their relationship to take care of an old crush. And, while Becky wasn’t wrong to come support Joyce, it might have been better handled if she considered Dina might feel insecure and discussed it with her ahead of time. Not that I would expect that from Becky – she’s been consistently shown as someone who doesn’t think her actions through.
I wouldn’t call her a jerk for it though. In the same way I wouldn’t call Joyce a jerk. We’ve all ignorantly made mistakes – extend some of that sympathy to yourself, guys.
Except that Becky has been shown, again and again, discussing every aspect of her relationship with Dina. Especially her spending time with Joyce.
She had Dina with her when we saw her talk about this with Joyce earlier. Dina knew about it then – and didn’t seem surprised, so it probably had come up before during the skip days.
She may not have been 100% sure she was going, probably wanting to see how Hank would react before committing or even before asking them, but it certainly wasn’t a spur of the moment thing. She’d thought it through. Even if it was off camera, I’d be shocked if she hadn’t talked about it with Dina. That’s how we’ve seen their relationship work all along.
Which doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable for Dina to feel insecure and a bit abandoned anyway. That’s part of new relationships and they can make up for it with extra cuddling when she gets back. And some phone calls in between. Or texts or whatever it is kids do these days.
Whatever might have happened off panel aside, my impression is that while they don’t not talk, they haven’t had a discussion in such a way that addresses Dina’s concerns. Which I guess could be Dina’s fault actually – in that she hasn’t brought it up, or didn’t know to bring it up, before Becky took off.
I still think Becky wasn’t wrong to come with Joyce, but now might be the time for extra effort and calls and text messages to help Dina feel appreciated. (Becky probably hasn’t gotten around to getting a cell phone yet, right? She can always borrow Joyce’s phone tho.)
Yup. Hell, the thing to keep in mind for both of them is that they are both each others’ first relationship. They’re learning not only how to date women but how to date people in general with each other and they both don’t really have much of a model for how this sort of thing is supposed to work.
They’ve got a lot of healthiness, but they’re going to make mistakes. It’s really quite unavoidable.
Dina deserves a lot better than Becky…. At first I was with Becky but seeing how much Dina cares about her and Becky don’t think about her… is hard not picture Becky as a bad guy
And lo! Goodwife Abigail didst say she saw this selfsame Becky walking with the Devil in the woods after dark! And they wast speaking and whispering with each other, and then didst Becky bewitch fair Dina and maketh her to dance Satan’s own dance!
That actually became canon a few years back. Lex stole 40 cakes in retaliation for not being allowed to enter a fission powered toaster into a science fair.
I like Lex Luthor. He is fully aware of the thing called “Proportional Response”, he has just decided that it has nothing to do with him. It’s an informed decision!
Alright, here’s my two cents on the whole Becky thing. Becky is Joyce’s best friend, and obviously cares for her. I think that she definitely came on this trip to support Joyce. However, Becky was in love with Joyce for years. That doesn’t simply go away, at least not quickly. Similarly, I think that while Becky and Dina care for each other, love is a complex emotion that takes time to build. Way more than has passed. So I think that Becky attempted to move on without giving herself enough time to lay her feelings for Joyce to rest. This isn’t Becky being a bad person, this is Becky doing her best in a hard situation that she has never experienced before. That doesn’t mean that Dina won’t get hurt because of this. I think this strip is showing Becky begin to realize that she might not be doing right by Dina, and feeling like a jerk regardless if she really is.
I could see that being the case, especially as we’ve seen Becky beating herself for things outside of her control before, so beating herself up for her lingering feelings towards Joyce or Dina’s feelings of insecurity would be very keeping in character for her.
One thing that is bugging me is that there seems to be a certain infantilization of Dina going on right now. I don’t know if it’s just the comments or actually part of the comic itself.
Because everyone is acting like being away from her girlfriend for a couple days is a big honking deal. Becky spends pretty much all her time with Dina, but these two days for going home are so horrible. How should Dina have to deal with that!
I mean, they’ve been together at most a couple weeks. and maybe only one. And going home for the weekend is not a remotely abnormal thing for college students to do, especially freshman year. And you don’t generally bring home your new girlfriend.
Unless Becky’s saying goodbye to Dina was kinda crappy, it really doesn’t seem like as big a deal as people are making it out to be. Or as big a deal as this comic seems to be making it.
And, hah. I should have scrolled up just a bit to see that BenRG basically said the same thing. Though, in my defense, I actually thought of it earlier but it took this long for me to figure out how to put it into words.
Did she say goodbye at all? She didn’t even ask her BFF before basically hopping in her father’s car with half a minute’s notice, my money is on her just randomly disappearing with no warning as far as Dinah is concerned.
Which would obviously result in a lot of worry, given the somewhat broader array of realistic options for why Becky would disappear suddenly versus the average teenager.
Here you go, since you obviously can neither 1, read back in the story to check, or 2, check the several different comment threads where that accusation has been brought up and shot down in this comments page.
Argh. I will accept many critiques of Becky: She’s impulsive. She’s brash. She has little brain-to-mouth filter, so she often ends up with her foot in her mouth. She’s needlessly mean to Dorothy. All those are perfectly valid.
She is not someone who neglects those she cares about and flakes out on them with no goodbye.
She’s also not someone who crashes her friends’ family visits with no notice, see? She offered to Joyce, long before Joyce left, because she knew it was going to be a tough visit for Joyce and thought Joyce could use the support. It’s not like Joyce said, “No, I don’t want you to come.”
Joyce has repeatedly expressed concern and anxiety about the trip home. Becky repeatedly offered to come as support. Joyce protested, mildly, because of the effect it would have on Becky. Not because she didn’t actually want Becky there. Becky has repeatedly told Joyce she’s willing to take it on, for Joyce’s sake. That’s where it stood when they left. So, no, it’s not like she hopped in Joyce’s dad’s car with half a minutes notice, either. Dina was there when Becky offered to go with Joyce, so it’s not “no warning” to Dina, either. Furthermore, Dina knows that Becky’s going as Joyce’s emotional support, not out of a desire to try again at the unrequited romance. Becky’s seriously in a no-win situation here – if she doesn’t go, she leaves her best friend of over a decade alone and unsupported in a painful situation that has the potential to nuke any kind of productive relationship with her folks if it’s handled poorly. If she does go, she makes her girlfriend lonely for a weekend and triggers Dina’s insecurities about being the rebound girl (which Becky doesn’t know about, to be completely fair to Becky). I still think Becky made the right choice here: In plain terms, Joyce psychologically needs Becky’s support right now. Dina wants Becky’s company. Need > want. It’s the same reason I’ve gone over to chronically ill friends’ places to cook/clean for them when they have flareups rather than going out with my partner as I’d planned that day. Learning how to balance relationships is a necessary part of adulting, and Becky’s handling it pretty well. Is she perfect? No. Nobody is. Particularly, she’s downright nasty to some of Joyce’s friends (Dorothy in particular) because of her jealousy. But her decision to support Joyce this weekend is a lot more considerate (and less enjoyable) than deciding to spend the weekend with her Dino Gal would’ve been.
Becky is many things. “Inconsiderate flake” is not one of them.
Speaking of Joyce and Becky, this strip make it obvious (just as it was obvious in the sushi resturant) that Becky and Joyce have developed a “no it’s MY fault” dynamic where both feel guilty for things they have or have not done to the other one.
Both of them are really afraid of this confrontation with parents (who, just to remind, is the closest thing BECKY has to parents too), but neither of them want the other to have to face it alone. So both try to shield the other one, a bit misguided perhaps, but because they care so much for each other.
This is a normal part of healthy relationships. And heck, Dina feeling a bit bummed about it because she’s massively in NRE and wants to spend all her time with Becky is also a normal part of early relationships. It’s not a relationship in crisis or Becky being an awful person. It’s an awful situation that needed to be handled before everyone goes back to cute cuddle mode and Becky has been shown to be damn respectful of the twin needs of her best friend and girlfriend before.
Also to trlkly at top- I got that impression too. Like, I wonder if there’s that piece of infantalization that Dina talked about at the party where people presume she can’t handle aspects of an adult relationship due to her neurodivergence. And so must be guarded from things like “ick, I can’t see my gf this weekend because she’s providing support for a crisis” even though these are very unlikely to be deal-breakers for the relationship.
Infantilization of people with disabilities is A Thing, and people with developmental disabilities are especially likely to get it. It’s hard to articulate how it happens, but a lot of it is dressed up as for the person’s protection/in their best interest, that sort of thing.
Plus, the hell of it is, a lot of people genuinely think they’re helping the person they’re infantilizing.
To be completely honest, I don’t expect Becky and Dina’s relationship to last. And it has absolutely nothing to do with what we’re seeing here. As far as we can tell, this is the first serious relationship for both of them. I’ve heard stories of people who meet in high school or college and stay together for the rest of their lives (or at least a couple of decades), but I’ve never seen them and my opinion is going to be affected by that.
From what I’ve seen and experienced of ‘first relationships’, they’re the ones where both parties make all the newbie mistakes. And even if Becky was being a selfish jerk in this, for the sake of the argument, okay? So? Dina’s hurt. It sucks, but can also be a valuable lesson for both of them if they stick together or to take with them into their next relationship.
Nothing in this page comes even close to making Becky a bad person. And that is if, yes even if, the implication is that she’s being a selfish jerk in regards to Dina. Newbie mistakes. I remember mine. Tell me none of you had bad ones of your own.
I’m still with the first person I’ve ever dated. That’s not to say we didn’t make a lot of mistakes early on. Some of them were small and we got over it, and some of them were huge. So yeah. They might not last. They might last. But Becky isn’t a bad person or a selfish jerk. She’s a teenager.
I said something similar a little while back. Realistically, the biggest obstacle to Becky & Dina lasting is that it’s a first relationship for both of them and most of those fail.
Then I thought about it a bit more and realized this is fiction.
So fuck that.
God answers lesbian prayers. Becky and Dina get their happy ending.
I don’t think that’s really Sarah’s fault. When she told Dina what she was worried about, Dina said she knew. I think Sarah just gave voice to worries Dina was already feeling.
Am I the only one who doesn’t think it would be horrible if Dina and Becky broke up? I think they would stay friends after…
to me their relationship is like Dorothy’s and Walky’s got started: “this is a fun thing that we both enjoy, it could be over next week but why worry about that”
By Dina’s own admission she’s exploring her sexuality, she kissed Becky on an impulse when everyone was making comments of her being child-like. If their relationship ended, yeah it would be disappointing but no the worst thing to happen to either by far
I just am dying with both Dina and Becky here. Dina, for obvious reasons, probably feels like she’s second fiddle, but also might be wrestling with whether she’s to blame. “Is she even in love with me, or did she just pity me? Do I even love her? I didn’t even know what romantic love was like a few weeks ago…” Then Becky, I know that guilt. Probably doubting whether she’s more good friend or more bad girlfriend. Doubting her own intentions and emotions. (Hopefully[against hope]not) feeling like Carol is right. Wondering if she just was lonely and let her and Dina “happen” without thinking about the consequences?
Not sure where people are getting selfish from here. Or even where the comic is. If Becky is being honest about why she came along, she’s being pretty selfless, and, if this few days apart is a stumbling block for them, their relationship is so flimsy that it’ll break like particle board.
It’s not cruel to spend a few days apart from your SO. It’s unhealthy to be wrapping yourself in knots if you’re apart from them briefly. It might suck a bit, but this isn’t a selfish deed and… Well, sometimes life sucks. Get a helmet. Or at least a dinosaur hat.
Also, Carol’s a bongo but, hey, at least I don’t get slapped with a fish, so there’s that. Lesson learned: Always give yourself a reason to be positive.
I think it’s probably selfish in that (as far as we have any reason to know) Becky didn’t consult, or even tell her girlfriend that she was going to leave for the weekend. She kind of just left her hanging there.
I think it is rather telling portrait of Becky that after being told in yesterday’s strip that she was NOT WELCOME here – in the closest thing she had left to a home, in the most toxic, passive aggressive way possible by the closest thing she had left to a mother – her comment is “Aw Jeez”.
I think Mr. Willis has done a fine job of character development with Becky, and it’s epitomized by her expressions in panels #1, #3, and #5, exhibiting remorse and loyalty. The impulsive/thoughtful balance seems to be shifting.
Shouldn’t Becky be able to walk to her family home and get some of her clothes and possessions she left there? If she got her stuff from her d9rm, she should have her house key. If not she is Becky. It’s her house and if she needs something from it she will find a way in.
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♪caaaaaaan you feel the looooooove tonight♫
I got more of a
♪Somewhere…out there…beneath the pale mooooonliiiight…♫
vibe.
American Tail high-five!
That’s the adorable mouse-children movie of my childhood. ^.^ My mom made my big brother a Fievel costume.
That’s right, the adorable mouse-children movie where multiple people die and we get to witness the horrible late 19th century racism and depravity of Europe and America.
THANKS DON BLUTH!
My childhood was haunted by nightmares featuring the Owl from Secret of Nimh, the demonic dragon thing from All Dogs go to Heaven, Sharptooth, and the Giant Mouse of Minsk.
Needless to say, when Bluth started crowdfunding to get the Dragon’s Lair movie off the ground, I couldn’t open my wallet fast enough.
The otherday I rewatched the first Bluth movie from my childhood (The Land Before Time).
When it got to the bit with the shadow it hit me in the feels so hard that I yelled out that Don Bluth “is a sadist”
Shut up and take my money!
Wait, characters died in that series? I don’t remember that. I do remember adorable mouse race-relations, and that lady-cat’s perfume. Guess I’ll have to watch it again as a grownup…
Also Tanya Mouskowitz was the best.
Cat lady was in the sequel which wasn’t directed by Bluth FWIW.
I thought the sequel was better than the original.
It was certainly…… louder.
Thank you indeed Don Bluth! At least when his themes are horrifying they’re horrifying for LOTS of interesting reasons and not just “This girl is underage” a la Disney. Which is a nice effect of not pulling 1000% of your source material from centuries-old fairy tales.
Disney pulled his sorce mat’l from his head and elsewhere: he surely did not follow the original fairy tales.
Those originals were written to teach a morale in as gruesome a way as possible.
Cinderella’s stepmother ended up dancing at her wedding while wearing iron shoes on a bed of hot coals.
He prettied up her suffering under that stepmother and ended up having her saved by a prince-Heaven forbid she could save herself because of the code of her environrment.
Watch Disney’s Fantasia while you’re high. You’ll remember the dragon – devil unwrapping his wings off the mt. top, if you remember nothing else.
No fairy tales were cute little fun bed time stories. They were meant to teach kids to survive in the world and society.
That was Snow White’s stepmother that danced on coals. Cinderella’s adoptive family was mauled by birds.
Saw that in the theatre as a wee child – my very first movie. I love the tune of Night on Bald Mountain, but I still cannot forget that demon/devil scene.
Uhm–seriously don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love Disney films. I just like Bluth also. 🙂 But you seem to be confirming exactly the point I was trying to make. Disney prettied up the suffering of the protagonists in his films versus their original darker source material and that’s why Bluth ended up becoming more interesting to me. It wasn’t so watered down. It was gritty.
“Watch Disney’s Fantasia while you’re high. ”
LOL way ahead of you. I love the Night on Bald Mountain sequence. Interestingly a lot of the artists who worked on the pastoral sequences were later mortified at how little justice they’d done the original classical scores. They thought they were making high art, but came to view it as embarassingly gauche and tacky looking back at it later. Which is a shame, I liked those sequences the most as a small child because UNICORNS AND PEGASI AND CENTAURS
I will buy MOST of what you’re saying. But don’t lay the “she needed a prince to save her, she couldn’t save herself” card on Disney. The old fairy tales constantly had the prince saving the girl. I remember one where the girl had to gather thistles and weave shirts for her brothers who’d been changed into swans. She was warned that she couldn’t speak to anyone or the spell would not be broken. The people got it into their heads that she was bewitched somehow and sent for the prince. He decided if she wouldn’t speak, he would have her executed as a witch. At the last minute, on the chopping block, she finished up MOST of the shirts and put them on her swan brothers (one sleeve wasn’t finished and that brother kept a wing for the rest of his life – thanks prince) THEN she told the prince everything that was happening and the prince asked for her hand in marriage. “Sure, you rushing my work so one of my brothers will have a wing for an arm for the rest of his life and you almost killing me for the crime of NOT TALKING is of no consequence at all! I’ll be happy to marry you!”
I wasn’t saying that’s exclusive to Disney in the slightest. I was saying that if the Disney machine took your fairy tale, by the time they were through with it the darkness of the original would have been watered down considerably to make it more ‘palatable’ for a modern audience. Bluth didn’t do that so much. Till he gave up and did. And then we got Thumbelina.
I still think that Don Bluth is the reason that to this day, I prefer a tear-jerker movie to a comedy or romance movie.
The first several movies I saw in theaters were by Bluth, not Disney. The Disney Renaissance started in 1989 with The Little Mermaid. I was only 6 at that time, but I’d already seen several Don Bluth movies, had a few on VHS, and had Fievel as my ever-present imaginary friend by the time Ariel came in to my life.
I certainly grew up on Disney, and feel fortunate that I was in the generation able to grow-up with the Disney Renaissance, but it’s Bluth’s movies that made me love animation, movies, and art. They were certainly dark as far as children’s movies go, but it liked that about them. There was a real sense of danger and that maybe, just maybe, everything wouldn’t turn out alright in the end. That made the movie more exciting and enjoyable to me.
All of this!
I love Disney movies – Don Bluth’s work, for the most part, I don’t think I’ve even seen (apart from the first one or maybe two of the Land Before Times).
One of my top animated movies of all time though?
Rankin-Bass’ “The Flight of Dragons”. For it’s animation, it’s storytelling, it’s characterisations, action scenes, and the fact that characters DO genuinely die (although magic brings some back in the coda), it is my fave.
And another one is “The Princess and the Goblin”, again for many if not all of the same reasons as above. 🙂
(I also own and love all the Disney animated movies) 😀
The sequels to the Land Before Time weren’t directed by Bluth at all. The original Land Before Time is the only one that counts as a Bluth film and (as far as I know) is the only one that carries Bluth’s signature style in both art design and storytelling.
Along with Land Before Time, The Secret of NIMH and All Dogs Go to Heaven are very much worth watching at least once.
I’m also particularly fond of Titan AE, which, even though it came out around 15+ years after the others we’re talking about, is still a decent movie. Though it’s not as emotional as his work from the 80s. I often wonder that if it had been, if it would have done better at the box office.
I adored that movie. I’d be willing to bet that I still know it word-for-word.
For several years my imaginary friend was Fievel. I’d freak the heck out if my mother made me wear an outfit without pockets because then Fievel would have a hard time hitching a ride on me wherever I went. If I had pockets, he could just hop in there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTK4eEqMa3Y
One Little Star
Since we’re all talking about American Tail, can I ask why people always keep referencing that song as a romantic duet? They’re siblings for goodness sake.
because on valentine’s day, people who aren’t thoughtless jerks go on road trips away from their girlfriends.
…that was a cheap, inaccurate shot. everyone’s having a rough time and no ones trying to be a jerk. except for the few glaring exceptions
It’s not Valentine’s Day in the comic, though, is it? Aren’t the leaves still on the trees?
yup. that’s the inaccurate bit
Yeah, it’s still autumn in the comic. I know we are before Thanksgiving in the comic, but I’m not sure if we’re still ahead of Halloween?
First week of October.
No, the sads are Willis’s valentine gift to us. Which speaks to the nature of our relationship.
These feeeeeeeeels
They keep on hitting me right in the faaaaaaaace
For a nickel
(and subs)
Valentines Day sort of invaded Germany in the last 20-30 years but still it’s not a thing that is largely observed (at least in my age group ;). A lot of people treat it as a conspiracy of the flower and sweets industry to sell more stuff.
But, like in Japan, in the US it seems to be really important for people in romantic relationships? So most people would expect to be treated specially on that day, like it was a relationship anniversary or something?
– or maybe it’s my age group and feminist leanings
happy one billion rising 😉
http://www.onebillionrising.org/
there’s a lot of conspiracy muttering in the u.s. as well (cuz that is the actual origin), but most people in relationships know better than to use that as an excuse not to buy loads of stuff and over-eat chocolate
It’s more likely your common sense and the fact that people are way better at catching when corporations are trying to manipulate the populace. Then again did Valentine’s day start up around when the Berlin Wall came down? I can Imagine cynicism running strong in that crowd.
Well at least it is not valentines day in comic.
Ooooh, Joyce… SO close to sticking the landing…
What’s she do wrong?
Oh, she didn’t do anything wrong, she just *is* wrong. 🙁
Joyce is wrong about a lot of stuff in general, but what did she
say that was incorrect in this strip?
About Becky not being thoughtless, is what I mean.
She’s really turning a blind eye towards Becky’s new “lifestyle” and consequently can’t even perceive how much her best friend’s action might be deeply hurting other people.
Arguably a strong case of head-in-the-sand here.
“Lifestyle”?
Oh dear are we in for another avalanche of folks blaming Becky for poisoning the water holes of the world? Cause, I’m gonna be honest. I’m really not up for another 30 person spread of Victim-Blaming Theatre.*
*And no, that last paragraph isn’t directed at you, just that that popped in my head as a worry.
Becky nuking the closet is the reason Hitler rose to power in the years leading to world war two, you know. AND the reason VHS rose to prominence over Betamax and Laserdisc.
Huh…
Mea culpa I guess. Damn VHS aiding lesbians!
Well I thought that the victory of VHS over better formats was the result of the advantage of open source over propriatary and that Hitler was just one of
Mike’s jokes that got out of hand.
@Cerberus “Damn VHS aiding lesbians!”
There’s a sentence I never thought I’d hear.
I’d less worry about Becky’s sexuality (which is totally her own and she should do as she sees fit in that area) and worry more about her impulsiveness. There’s a fine line between spontaneous and waking up in Nova Scotia with no idea how or when you crossed the border.
….??????
I agree with Joyce on this one.
Implication being Becky IS a thoughtless jerk because of how she’s jaunted off with her long time object of affection, leaving her current actual still-new girlfriend to stew and wonder and fret about her actual significance to Becky etc. Unclear whether that’s what occurred to Becky, but it’s what the narrative seems to be getting at. Joyce’s misstep is asserting Becky to be thoughtless and jerky in the face of that.
*to not be thoughtless etc
Well, Becky’s problem tends to be that she’s self-sacrificing and selfless to her own detriment. And all of Joyce’s friends have been super worried for her and been shown to dig deeper than they normally would to try and be there for her (Dorothy partially considering sleeping with her if it would make her smile, Sal speaking up for her in a major way, Billie openly worrying about her, Becky offering to come along on this trip).
So it’s not that she’s a thoughtless jerk, just that this was a situation where she did know that Joyce was going to a rough situation and needed a friend and Becky was the only one in a position to even try to come along and support and didn’t know that her girlfriend is threatened by this and worries that she’s just a rebound to Becky.
I suspect we’ll see Becky calling Dina sometime this evening or the following morning just to check in and say hi (and hopefully open up to her about how things are making her feel cause damn it is not healthy for her to repress as much as she does), but this was a perfectly sensible decision to make here and genuinely does show a lot of thought and care.
I somehow doubt Becky’s reasons for coming with Joyce were quite so noble, which is part of why she’s questioning them herself in panel one.
I think she’s still holding on to the hope that Joyce will decide that actually she IS a lesbian and then Becky and Joyce become an item and Dina Who?
Well, it’s not like there’s a long comic history of her being unreasonably selfless:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/hittheroad/#comment-967339
So…
I agree that if you put the most positive possibly spin on literally everything Becky does, she comes off pretty good. Like “that perfect girl” in fact, which is the name of this book. I wonder who That Perfect Girl is. Carla explicitly says she isn’t (which means she might be), and it’s certainly not Mary or Ruth, so that leaves Becky, Joyce, and Dina as the girls the book title could plausible refer to.
Becky’s motivations for coming on this trip are ambiguous. On purpose. That’s why Becky is asking why she came and Joyce is responding that she doesn’t know. It’s not a rhetorical question, it’s the key dramatic mystery of this storyline.
We’ve been given two options as to Becky’s motivations. One, offered by Becky herself, is that it’s a selfless act of support. The other, given by Sarah, is that Becky is still in love with Joyce. This strip is clearly intended to lend credence to Sarah’s theory by having Joyce and Becky herself call her motivations into question. Assuming Becky doesn’t have some mystery third motivation (unlikely), here are the possible endings to this arc.
1. Becky has been entirely selfless, but other characters don’t believe her, leading to drama. She really is “that perfect girl”
2, Becky is still in love with Joyce, and really is just a total selfish prick. Joyce is “that perfect girl” in Becky’s mind
3. Becky is still in love with Joyce, realizes it, and runs off to live happily ever after with Dina (or at least until the next arc involving them). Dina is That Perfect Girl.
I’m putting my money on three. Option one doesn’t resolve properly unless the moral of the story is “stop trying to help people and make out with cute dinosaur girls” which is a weird moral, and being Too Pure For This Sinful Earth isn’t really Willis’ style anyway. Option two would blow up the comment section so hard that I kind of want it to happened in a “some men just want to watch the world burn” way. Option three is thus the most likely. Becky can’t magically turn off being in love with someone, but it’s here that she realizes she’s still hanging on to a false dream, and commits to being with Dina.
I don’t believe she is morally flawless. I believe that she has a major character flaw that causes her to believe that she is a toxin and imposition to everyone in her life and thus is more likely to unhealthily bury her pain and rush to support and talk up her loved ones, especially those she has histories with or crushes on.
And I think they are all “that perfect girl”. Largely all for the same reason to.
Becky, Joyce, Carla, Ruth, Billie, all are under intense pressures to be perfect to be seen as worth loving.
Becky in having to beg for mere tolerance from the closest thing she still has to family and in burying her pain for Joyce’s sake. Joyce in having to bury her doubts and the way she’s starting to view some behaviors of her raising environment as toxic so as to still be flawless for her mother. Jocelyne in having to bury herself and who she is to be still loved by her family and not disowned at best. Ruth in having to navigate blackmail and having to perfectly disguise any sign of her relationship with Billie and rise to actually doing the job of being a good RA, even if that is ripping her apart internally. Billie in having to deal with not being that perfect partner for Ruth anymore because of said blackmail and having to actually look into herself. And Dina in her belief that she is a mere afterthought to Becky and her insecurities about being left behind for Joyce or simply just thrown away.
All are trying to be perfect somethings or are facing demands that they be perfect someones. All are struggling to incorporate their real selves into that. Their flaws and their strengths and make it through with the least amount of damage possible.
Or at least, that’s my take on it.
And I don’t feel that is overly optimistic to say so.
“I don’t believe she is morally flawless. I believe that she has a major character flaw that causes her to believe that she is a toxin and imposition to everyone in her life and thus is more likely to unhealthily bury her pain and rush to support and talk up her loved ones, especially those she has histories with or crushes on.”
I realize that a lot of people are applying the worst possibile interpretation of everything Becky’s ever done, but this is probably going too far the other way. Becky’s never acted like she was worried she was an imposition on people. Quite the opposite, in fact. She’s loud, brash, kind of obnoxious, and spends money on rad haircuts while Joyce is literally skipping meals. Charitably, she’s caught up in the rush of being able to be honest with people for the first time. Uncharitably, she’s doesn’t think about how her actions affect others. Most fights about Becky are about how charitable you want to be with her, and this arc seems like it’s going to answer the question definitively. Personally, I think she’s a good person and maybe a little caught up in being able to express herself freely for the first time, but I certainly don’t think her character flaw is that she’s a doormat.
“Becky, Joyce, Carla, Ruth, Billie, all are under intense pressures to be perfect to be seen as worth loving.”
That’s….certainly an interpretation of things. Becky’s already loved, by Dina, and if she’s hoping to be loved by Joyce as well then Sarah’s right about her, at least partially. Joyce isn’t looking for love (of any kind) in this storyline at all. Her struggle is trying to figure out what she believes anymore. Ruth and Billie aren’t trying to be perfect for love, they have love, they’re trying to beat Ruth. Carla’s not trying to be perfect; she explicitly rejects wanting to/having to be “That Perfect Girl”, though the fact that she said the title means it might end up referring to her after all. Dina might well be the titular “perfect girl” but we’ve seen no sign that she’s trying to change herself for Becky, Grease-style. If Joycelyn’s in this story at all, I’ve missed her (which I might have)
Fair enough, I clearly misspoke with regards to being “perfect”. I suppose I’m meaning it more in terms of having to be perfect in some aspect or demanded to be perfect for some aspect in order to retain their status quo or their humanity, rather than love specifically.
Mea culpa.
“Becky’s never acted like she was worried she was an imposition on people. Quite the opposite, in fact.”
Yeah, it’s really an odd idea, is it not?
It’s not like her brashness is a deliberate front:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/04-walking-with-dina/downer/
It’s not like she doesn’t beat herself up for past actions if she thinks they had the potential to hurt someone she cares about:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/bubbling/
It’s not like she says that everything is her fault because of the fallout from her situation, imploding with guilt as she watches loved ones suffer:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/fault/
It’s not like she believes that her presence has broken everything and that by being here she’s toxic to her loved ones:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/lob/
It’s not like she doesn’t worry that her habits are taken as deliberate attacks to said loved ones and seek to clarify them:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/originalsin/
It’s not like her reaction to a girlfriend wanting to treat her is to ask for company while she looks for a job instead because she doesn’t want to take advantage of her friends, despite it being about one single week since she got here:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/aspirations/
It’s not like she refused to take Dina’s phone as that would inconvenience Dina:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/sticks/
It’s not like she’ll put herself in physical danger in order to try and save a stranger’s life:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/restore/
It’s not like she hides the most deeply painful personal experiences so they won’t inconvenience her friends:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/hi-2/
It’s not like she puts aside recovering from majorly terrifying events to emotionally support her friends first:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/damn/
It’s not like she didn’t tell Dina, the woman she loves, that she would have lived under a bridge in her first plan of escape never contacting her or Joyce again, just to keep them safe from her father’s wrath and never put them in harm’s way again:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/fought/
It’s not like she deliberately had her girlfriend take another route in escaping her violent father, trusting that he’d chase her and her “hi-visibility” hair cut instead thus keeping her safe. Self-sacrifice, putting oneself in harm’s way, decreasing the harm to another:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/deceptress/
It’s not like she didn’t literally give up everything, giving herself over freely to the violent abuser who was to take her to a reparative therapy camp where she was to be tortured until she hated herself…at best, all because her standing up for herself was leading to Joyce being triggered and others being put in harms way:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/risk/
Shall I continue?
“and spends money on rad haircuts”
Pfft. Bwahahahaha!
Oh man, every time. Every single time. It always rolls back to that sad little haircut argument. It’s like, oh, is Becky on screen? How long until someone calls her selfish and starts whining that she spent $20 on a haircut instead of infinite poverty solving haircuts.
You know what? Thanks. I needed to laugh like that to help reset.
She’s loud, brash, kind of obnoxious, and spends money on rad haircuts while Joyce is literally skipping meals. Charitably, she’s caught up in the rush of being able to be honest with people for the first time. Uncharitably, she’s doesn’t think about how her actions affect others. Most fights about Becky are about how charitable you want to be with her, and this arc seems like it’s going to answer the question definitively.
Um.
The rad haircut you’re using as a sign of Becky being inconsiderate reads instead to me as a necessary and vital step of establishing and declaring her own identity, in the face of a culture that’s determined to erase her at best. If she were my friend… much as I hate to speak for Joyce, that’d be worth a whole bunch more than skipping some meals.
I’d suggest that this arc isn’t about how charitable anyone should be to Becky but about the wider issue of what restrictions should be placed on her self-identity. Joyce and Toedad have given their answers, and now Hank and Carol are lining up to put the same question to the test in a relatively safe home setting (and the notion of the Brown household being a surrogate home for Becky is important, as is the inverted gender of Joyce/Hank and Toedad/Carol; this is surely not by accident) rather than Toedad’s deluded and violent guns-at-high-noon setting.
But… how charitable should we be with Becky? Could well be an inadvertent word choice there, but I’ll take it any way: I’m with Joyce. I’d maintain that the charity—in several senses—displayed by Dina, Amber/Amazigirl, Joyce, Sal, and an anonymous passerby (doncha just love that it was entirely women who intervened?) fully answers the question. And lest we mistake that as being all about Becky, I think Becky’s heart-breaking final attempt to reason with her father shows that her own concept of how deserving anyone is of that same charity knows few bounds.
As for the haircut, which keeps coming up, that’s a really nice sign of how subtle Willis can be – 8 months after the haircut, Ross tells us why she cut it. “Your hair is your womanhood, and you must reclaim it.” That’s what she was reacting to. Not just a girl wasting money on a “rad haircut”, a deliberate, if symbolic, renunciation of the toxic culture she was raised in.
Worth every damn penny.
And so nicely understated. Becky doesn’t explain it. Even Joyce’s reaction fits in that context.
If Joycelyn’s in this story at all, I’ve missed her (which I might have)
Jocelyne, not Joycelyn.
And no you didn’t miss her, she hasn’t shown up so far.
However she was in preview panels on Willis’ tumblrs, so her showing up is a given.
People often have multiple motivations for their actions. Becky can be hitching a ride because she wants a sense of family, because she needs her SSN, because she’s supporting Joyce, and because she still loves Joyce, all at once.
The title, I think, is that many characters are reacting to various expectations or perceptions of being That Perfect Girl, and exploring the gap between that pressure vs. their imperfect selves. For example, Carla expressly rejects the expectation that she must be that perfect girl to make up for being a transwoman. Joyce fears that she’ll have to be seen as the perfect daughter, and maybe she was before, but won’t be able to be perfect anymore because she’s changed. Becky and Dina think each other is perfect and can be insecure about their own merits (especially Dina). Mary thinks she is more perfect than you, and Billie and Ruth, who loathe themselves, hate that about her. Billie is actively trying to be the perfect support-girlfriend, to save Ruth. You can bet Jocelyn will have some idea of herself in relation to that construct, too, and maybe others by the time this storyline is done.
That seems like an unreasonably cynical and OOC interpretation of her actions.
If there’s anything self-centered about her going with Joyce, it’s probably her hope that she can connect with Joyce’s parents and find something a bit like family and home again, strengthened by Hank’s reaction and dashed by Carol’s.
If there’s anything about maybe hooking up with Joyce in there, it’s buried way down in the subconscious under a mountain of denial. They’re going to have to recontextualize their relationship at some point to get away from that, since it’s always been friendship on Joyce’s part and (unrealized) crush on Becky’s. Likely that’s going to require some distance to work out, but they’ve both got enough trauma and need enough support right now that this isn’t a good time.
I think you need to allow Becky to be human and make mistakes too, Cerberus. As above & elsewhere, I don’t think Becky really made a fully-thought-through and intentional decision to come along to support Joyce and (especially) to deflect criticism onto herself, as you’ve suggested; but more specifically to the theme, she’s hurting Dina, however unintentionally, by her fixation on Joyce.
Look again at the recent sequence, from [internal screaming] on; Becky & Dina are happily hand-in-hand until Becky gets panged for Joyce again (thanks Walky). When Joyce has a problem, Becky leaps to her side and poof! Dina’s out of the picture again; now Becky’s impulsively cadged a road trip for a mess of reasons that I don’t think even she fully understands and run off for the weekend with her love-of-my-life, seemingly without a word to her actual girlfriend, who’s missing her and (rightfully) insecure about the relationship.
Becky is treating Dina poorly here, and the last two panels make it pretty clear that she’s just realised it. For all that her cynicism and timing suck, Sarah’s not actually wrong. Happy Valentine’s Day.
Eh, I took way too long to type this and got severely ninja’d. Oh well! 🙂
To be clear, in case I wasn’t: Becky is unambiguously Good People. The point is that even Good People can get things wrong and cause hurt without meaning to, and I think Becky has just realised she’s doing that with Dina.
“I think you need to allow Becky to be human and make mistakes too, Cerberus.”
Indeed, I think she has major flaws that hamper her. Her jealousy of Dorothy. Her burying of pain making it difficult for others to emotionally support her (which is probably also modeling bury your pain behavior for Dina that is directly leading to Dina not talking about how much the Joyce stuff is bothering her). I like Becky because she’s a mess and I identify with a number of ways in which she’s a mess.
“I don’t think Becky really made a fully-thought-through and intentional decision to come along to support Joyce and (especially) to deflect criticism onto herself”
I would agree. I don’t think Becky had much of a fully-thought out anything other than “Joyce sad, I need to support, I can offer to come with, she said yes, I’m coming with” and certainly didn’t intend to be a criticism sponge. Hell, part of her was probably clinging to some distant hope that things would go well and she’d find her replacement family.
Interestingly enough, this is an intriguing aspect of Becky as a character. She’s impulsive, which typically means bad in most narratives, but in DoA, it actually works out more often than not. She takes big risks, trusting in her ability to improvise on the fly and make things work. Sometimes they pay off (her 9-11 gambit, her fleeing to Joyce, her admission of attraction to Dina), sometimes they don’t (her coming on to Joyce and kissing her, her split up and lose him in the treeline gambit), but she always keeps on trying and just absorbs the bad and tries to keep a positive demeanor. It’s… I don’t fully know what, maybe a little aspirational, because someone who takes big risks like that is kind of an interesting character.
And as for your sequence of events, I can see where you’re coming from, but I think you’re missing a very key piece.
“seemingly without a word to her actual girlfriend,”
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/humility/
Panel 5:
Hank: “… So who’s that Becky is saying goodbye to?”
Joyce: “That’s Dina, her girlfriend.”
She deliberately went out of her way to say goodbye to Dina. Additionally, Dina was present and made very aware of the offer and the plan, hours before any of that recent sequence. Dina knew this was happening and Becky made sure she said goodbye first.
Which does not seem to support your particular conclusion here.
Also, I will note that the last time that everyone assumed that Becky was doing something wrong, imposing on Joyce and putting her in danger, they were all wrong, Becky was in fact invited and everything was okay and the time shortly after where everyone assumed that Becky was being awful and not saying goodbye to Dina, the next strip was Becky saying goodbye to Dina.
I am fully prepared to be 100% wrong on Becky and Becky’s actions in context. That’s the fun thing about reading a webcomic. But I feel somewhat justified in assuming a better case scenario for Becky’s motivations than most given previous predictions regarding her behavior.
Ah, yes – you’re right, I forgot that she did say goodbye. I don’t think it invalidates the conclusion, though, to take that specific bit out (I’ll note that I did deliberately cast it from a sympathetic-to-Dina perspective). The thread still seems to be that Dina comes second to Joyce in Becky’s thinking, and knows it.
I get your reading on Dina knowing about Becky’s plan – personally, though, I got the impression that Becky going with Joyce wasn’t so much a ‘done deal’ as a suggestion Becky had made, but was still up in the air. I don’t recall Joyce saying Yes (correct me if I’m wrong!), and I thought the layout from when Becky went over to greet Hank read more like a snap decision than being pre-planned – Joyce didn’t really seem to have been expecting her to come with them, either then or now. Either way, though, Dina seems to have been an onlooker to that discussion, not involved in it.
All of which is not to say, of course, that Becky’s being selfish – she patently isn’t. I do think that she’s neglecting Dina’s feelings in favour of Joyce and needs to recognise that (and in fact just has). It may well be a case of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”.
She’s also in the week or so she’s been here made deliberate attempts to balance her time with Dina and Joyce and talked about that with Dina. In terms of going with them to classes and things like that. We didn’t see the conversation with Dina about the weekend, but we know she knew about it and actually be a major change in their relationship patterns for them not to have talked about it.
Beyond that, while she has a crush on Joyce, she’s also been her best friend forever and she’s only known Dina a week. And Joyce is going through a major crisis, which Becky is directly involved with, while Dina isn’t. Becky isn’t going to cut Joyce out of her life or stop supporting her, that would be a horrible thing to do.
But yes, Dina’s going to feel hurt and insecure about it at times. That’s the low part of a new relationship, to go with the new relationship high. You’re not yet confident and secure enough in the relationship to trust, even when trust is warranted.
thejeff-
This.
Dina’s feeling jealous which is normal and human, but it would’ve been genuinely horrible of Becky to abandon her oldest and dearest friend at an emotionally critical moment simply because of the confusion of her crush and the outside possibility that her new girlfriend would take it the wrong way.
Do they need to talk about the feelings this all arises, Dina about her feelings of jealousy and abandonment and insecurities surrounding being wanted and Becky about her buried stuff and her feelings of needing to sacrifice for those who’ve “saved her” and her fears about family?
Totes. But that’s part of a relationship. And having messy complications with feelings and desires to do good is part of being humans and especially humans in love.
her 9-11 gambit
Her what?
I really do not grok the term.
I tried to educate myself by a look on the google, but all that came up was Trump vs Jeb Bush.
“911”, not “9-11”. Emergency response number.
Dialing 911 in the car when she saw Amazi-girl in tow, alerting the police and not incidentally providing evidence to them, but also putting herself more at risk when her dad realized it. That is in fact when he hit her.
That she didn’t do it until someone else was at risk is the relevant point here, I think.
There’s some validity in there, but I don’t think the fixation’s on Joyce: I think it’s on the link that Joyce is to the functional side of family and para-family she’s grown up in. She was clearly delighted both to see Hank and to be accepted by him (and then promptly fell asleep, because, Becky), but there hasn’t been a hint of her seeing Joyce as someone to push romantic boundaries with.
This is a reading that matches the perfect-girl notion around who Becky is supposed to have grown up as, and who she’s expected to be satisfying by that. She can’t test that out on Joyce, she needs to do that with others she grew up around, and as parental figures Hank and Carol are pretty essential there.
Crush and life-long friend are definitely tangled, but I’m not convinced there’s been any evidence of the former since her lesbian prayer was answered. But parent and home? We’re seeing bunches of that.
I wonder if Becky calling Dina is going to be what pulls the drama tag. “Who’s Becky calling?” “She’s talking with Dina, her girlfriend.” “She WHAT!”
I think it’s occurring to her in panel 5.
Yeah, though Becks & Dina were inseparable for most of the last couple days. I still blame Sarah for making Dina all insecure with her “Becky is in LURVE with Joyce” nonsense.
Though we don’t know what Dina is said about yet. She could just be regularly missing Becks and being worried about how she’s be dealing with Joyce’s fam.
Ugh this BeckDina drama is rubbing me the wrong way. STOP BEING SO INSECURE
Seriously, when Sarah fucks up advice or action, she tends to fuck up BIG.
A little blame might go Sarah’s way, but it’s not a stark as putting doubts in Dina’s mind, more like validation of existing fears. “I know.” Still bad, of course.
♪I love you…you love me…♪
Order now and get Dina Sings The Classics! Album includes such hits as:
Barney’s “I Love You”
Was (Not Was)’s “Walk the Dinosaur”
Weird Al’s “Jurassic Park”
Hanna-Barbera’s “Flintstones Theme”
They Might Be Giants’ “I am a Paleontologist”
The Nostalgia Critic’s “I’m the Muthafuckin’ T-Rex!”
Baby’s Sinclair’s “I’m the Baby (Gotta Love Me)”
Buy now and we’ll throw in precisely NONE of the songs from the musical sequels to Land Before Time, because that entire franchise is an abomination after the first one.
I see you and I follow the same sect of Bluth Admiration. The sequels were written by false prophets!
Your offer is very poor in the T-Rex department!
Needs more Dinosaur Jr.
Dina is not a thoughtless jerk either.
Can…can I or someone else here just climb into the comic and hug Dina? 🙁
Becky is so close she can almost do it herself.
Pesky panel borders getting in the way.
Believe me, I’ve tried. Maybe I need a bigger monitor.
i would if i could but i cant so i wont
Won’t somebody think of the palentologist.
she’s praying for becky…because it’s…the best she can do….
i know it’s just a typo, but i can’t help but delight in the concept of “palentology–the science of FRIENDSHIP!”
Honestly, it’s kinda impossible to not be a thoughtless jerk ALL the time. You can’t think of absoluttely everyone and how your actions can affect everyone you know.
Although that being said, she REALLY should have prepared Dina more.
I don’t see how. Like, Becky brought Dina with her when talking with Joyce and was there for the second offer and probably for the first offer to come along as well. So she knew it was coming and didn’t actively push for more or ask to strategize for communication over the weekend or say anything about her needs.
And she took time before heading off to say goodbye and presumably to let Dina know how to get in touch with her if she needs her. She’s not a mind-reader, she’s not going to be able to divine that Dina actually is really negatively affected by this when she has only let slip this information to Sarah. And at the time it made sense for her to continue with her plan to support Joyce as she definitely knew her best friend was in a bad space and needed support.
She’s handled it about as well as anyone could expect to with the information she had.
Oh man.
The feels are killin’ me.
Ain’t no cure for the feels.
Still not the saddest comic Willis has run on Valentine’s Day.
Look into Dina’s eyes.
Look deeeep into Dina’s eyes.
How is that not the saddest thing?
(Note: Not a serious question.)
No, the saddest thing is a little girl who has been told by her mother and father that she will never be pretty. And then they open the front door, and on the porch is a little white suitcase, with all her things in it.
Lie Bot told me so.
*plays Chris Isaak’s “Wicked Game” on the hacked Muzak back on campus*
or *plays Skunk Anansie’s “Secretly” on YouTube*
Go Joyce! Poor Dina. 🙁
Becky needs to like call Dina or something at some point this comic-time-day so the feels don’t go critical and melt down…
That would be a simple solution.
I see it happening at some point.
Becky needs someone she has previously allowed vulnerability with and Dina needs just some voice time (and to bloody well tell Becky what she’s feeling) to work through the NRE-fueled codependence of wanting to be with her all the time.
Now cue major night crisis that prevents this and Dina assuming the worst about her baby dyke.
It would be very weird and uncharacteristic of her if she didn’t considering how all over her she is in pretty much her every waking hour.
agreed, and presumably these things could have been handled off-screen did the thought occur, but….does becky still have dina’s phone, and failing that, does she have her phone NUMBER? because last i knew they were sort of sharing dina’s phone between them, which kind of impedes the whole “call your girlfriend” thing.
not that they don’t have any way to contact her indirectly, if need be. should the thought occur.
…So is Becky supposed to be the thoughtless jerk for how she’s treating Dina? The way the strip’s laid out (“You’re not a thoughtless jerk”, beat, cutaway to someone arguably being harmed by Becky’s thoughtlessness), it reads as if that’s the message.
I don’t really think of Becky/Dina that way at all, if only because I don’t think there’s ever been any kind of implication that it was Becky who was causing Dina harm, rather than how Dina was viewing herself and what she means to Becky, so I’m kinda confused.
I don’t think she’s a thoughtless jerk, but that she think’s she’s a thoughtless jerk.
So much free floating guilt around here it gets stuck on anything.
If she’s thinking that, that means she isn’t.
Pretty much that.
And it’s not as if Becky doesn’t have a good reason to go home herself. She needs her Social Security number, after all.
AND a toothbrush
Totally thinking of Dina.
She’s actually got that when she raided her supply at Anderson.
I don’t think she got her SSN there.
No for that she needs to brave (booming voice) Snake Way (/booming voice). Or rather raid her old home.
Why go home for her SSN:
first she may not even have a home now, it may be repossessed or something.
Second she can go to any SS Office anywhere and get the SSN. But first she needs something to prove her identity, like her birth certificate: which she can also send away for. (I’ve done it myself).
Next: she is at Joyce’s house, I have a feeling they don’t live that far apart. She can easily check it out, and even get some of her own clothes etc?
Because all those take weeks if not months and she wants to start working as soon as possible, especially since she’s a homeless youth with literally no source of income and wants to start going to a public university, not to mention not be relying solely on her friends’ good will just to be able to eat and buy basic necessities and minor luxuries.
Actually I had a friend who lost all that stuff at once: Her ID, her birth certificate, and SSN (IT was all in her wallet cause she needed them for paperwork and I think it was lost or damaged) and she had a hell of a time getting any of them because she didn’t have either of the other two to prove stuff.
Her home can’t have been repossessed -banks don’t like doing it, and there’s no justification, at this point in time, for doing so. Toedad showed up what, a week ago, in-comic? There’s no way he’s missed enough payments on the house to have gotten enough legal advance notification for it to be repossessed -and it’s entirely possible Becky’s keys still work -or that Joyce’s parents or someone else in the community have working ones that can let her in to go and get some things she’d need/want.
I mean, Becky DID just tell Dina that she was going to spend the holidays with a girl she’s been crushing on for years.
I think you’d have to have skin made of ultra thick callouses not to feel a little hurt.
It’d make sense if Becky felt guilty because she ran off without saying goodbye or something, but she’s allowed to go back home with her oldest and dearest friend and replacement family for Thanksgiving.
If your beloved other went off to spend the weekend with someone that you know they used to pine for, whether they told you about it or not, would you not feel sad about that?
That face in the second to last panel might as well be Becky realizing she made a
rashquick-second decision because she’s still not completely over Joyce, when Dina was right there willing to be her emotional foundation. Or pillar. Whatever sounds more romantic.If that is a genuine concern, given that the person in question is their oldest and dearest friend and their only connection to their previous life, including all their possessions and important legal documents, well…obviously that relationship isn’t built on a solid foundation of trust at all.
You just pointed out the elephant in the room.
Well, it’s not built on a solid foundation of trust because it’s about a week old. They’re still building that foundation.
Even if they talked about it and agreed to Becky going and Dina really was alright with it, there’s still going to be some stress at this point.
Which is painful, but unavoidable. And okay. It’s actually part of building that foundation, transitioning from new relationship puppy love to something more lasting.
But that’s still not Becky being thoughtless, other than “oh man what if Dina takes this badly” which we’ve never gotten any indication that she’s clued into Dina’s insecurities, nor should she really be compelled to preemptively act to assuage them, or spend time away from Joyce to placate Dina’s worries.
Becky’s not over Joyce, but that doesn’t get in the way of how she treats Dina. Even if she was totally repulsed at the idea of being attracted to Joyce she’d still be tagging along to support her as well as pick up any legal documentations she needs from her house.
Then why didn’t she invite Dina? From what I can tell, this is happening over the weekend. No classes to be missed, but a whole lot to be gained. Becky could’ve showed Dina her hometown, talked about some great times she had as a kid(most likely with Joyce but still), and expanded their relationship.
Instead she leaves Dina behind because she’s still a little sour that Joyce and Dorothy got to have a pretend marriage with each other.
Look I’m not saying she did this consciously, that’d be too mean if she did, but it was still thoughtless to not try and include Dina.
“invite dina”…. to joyces house? thats not actually something she can do
Becky: “Hey Joyce can Dina come along too?”
Joyce: “Hey dad can Dina come along too?”
Joyce’s Dad: “As long as I get to sleep in the backseat you can bring the whole dorm with you.”
Seems pretty simple.
Ctrl+C D@: Yeah, that’d go over well. Imagine Dina in the Brown household. This weekend was already going to be a trial, there was no reason whatsoever to involve another complicating person.
Hank would grit his teeth, but can you imagine, Carol would treat Dina horribly. They have enough trouble handling the Becky they’ve always known without the presence of her new evolutionist girlfriend, and Dina would feel totally overwhelmed and attacked.
Inviting Dina along would be nice support for Becky, but it would be rude, and would not be worth it at all on this trip, and especially rough to Dina.
Ctrl+C-
You must have awesome parents.
Shiro&Leorale-
Man, can you imagine? Dina the take no crap atheist scientist? Versus Carol. It’d be non-stop fighting between the two with Dina trying to explain why Carol’s viewpoints on evolution and queerness are completely wrong and Carol getting more and more passive-aggressive. It’d be an epic disaster. And no one would emerge from it unscarred, including Dina as you said, Leorale.
I dunno, if I’m going to someone else’s family for dinner, even a close family, I probably wouldn’t bring anyone else with me. It might be more just a matter of politeness rather than Becky trying to capitalize on not having the friend stealing hussy around.
Like, it just seems like we’re treating Becky as a bad girlfriend blinded by her thirst for Joyce because she’s not glued to Dina’s hip 24/7.
Dude. Think about that for a second. Why didn’t she invite Dina… to her friend’s house… a friend who’s parents have very strong “views” about atheists and are barely handling even a tense “tolerance” for Becky’s queerness.
I mean, no, you just don’t do that. It would be massively rude and weird and would have been shot down immediately. Cause, you just don’t ask if you can bring a date to a friend’s house for a weekend family visit when you’re not directly family.
They’re not on vacation. Joyce is critically depressed and has been subverbal and subfunctional all week and Becky has been front and center to witness every stage of her total collapse of faith. Becky is here because her best friend is scared for the first time of going home and Becky feels she owes her to take a big risk and be there for her.
Both because a) Joyce was there for her on her worst day, punching out her dad, rescuing her from kidnapping, and not to mention taking her in in the first place when she had nowhere else to go, and b) Becky blames herself for Joyce having a rocky relationship with her parents in the first place. Like, in her head, if she wasn’t queer and didn’t get caught in her dorm room kissing her roommate and didn’t run to Joyce instead of living under a bridge, then Joyce wouldn’t have been threatened with a gun and screamed at her parents or be having this crisis of faith. It’s wrong. But I know from personal experience that the brain doesn’t care one whit for that when it can echo all the blame you’re internalizing.
Dina was always going to be left behind and Becky was always going to be coming along and the fact that Becky still has feelings for Joyce is actually probably the least related to this decision.
But Dina is jealous. And that is okay. It’s okay for a person to be jealous and worried that their lover cares more for their first crush and their best friend than some new “weird dino girl” (in her own words), who’s probably not as interesting to others (in her own skewed self-image). But she needs to call Becky and communicate that over the phone so that Becky can do what she always does and talk up her awesome Dinogal girlfriend who bites Toedad and has all sorts of awesome dino facts.
All a good point.
Welp, you’ve got your view on this strip and I’ve got mine. Guess all we can do is shake hands and part ways on good terms.
That and the reply button won’t work after this post, which makes this seem like a real dick post in hindsight.
…
THE ARISTOCRATS!
all of this; and a raptor too
Though I have to say, despite the obvious horrible consequences I was amused a few strips back by the idea of them pulling up to the house, getting out of the car, followed by Dina to a complete double-take from Hank who hadn’t even noticed she was in the car.
/applause
Well said!
The holidays? Today is the first of October in comic time. The only holiday around then is Columbus Day, and even that’s a week away (second Monday).
This is just a visit home for Joyce after what’s been a pretty traumatic event (and probably also a way to makes sure she isn’t ‘straying’).
Shoot sorry, I still get thrown off by the timeline of this comic and the fact that it’s Valentines day.
I just like details like calendars. No worries.^^
I don’t think Willis is suggesting that Becky is a thoughtless jerk (that’s what
the comment section is for), it just that she feels guilty even if she really shouldn’t.
Guilt for what, though? She’s completely unaware about Dina feeling like she’s a rebound. As far as Becky’s concerned, Dina’s her rad dino girlfriend.
She knows Dina’s alone, though. Even if she knows Dina could be enjoying dinosaurs, she also knows she could not be.
Take your pick. Becky’s been thrown into a meat grinder of late and seems to be blaming herself for all the friends who were attacked or put in danger by her dad when she got kidnapped, Joyce’s current mental breakdown and tense relationship with her folks, everyone who’s ever been “inconvenienced” by her presence, and probably yeah, for not being able to be an awesome girlfriend for her super smart and awesome girlfriend who can take down Toedads and is just always there for her in her darkest moments.
I dunno, having been in a version of that situation before, it can be really easy to blame yourself for literally everything all at once. Even your own existence and things are not helped for Becky given that both her dad and Joyce’s mom have directly blamed her for “destroying her family” which we’ve seen is one of the few things that drives Becky to tears.
She’s not being fair to herself, but then, it’s hard to be fair to yourself when your life has been upended as thoroughly as Becky’s has.
I mean, if this was Becky feeling unwarranted guilt over “causing” more grief for Joyce, then that makes sense, but with that last panel it forces the implication that Becky’s being thoughtless about Dina, which I just really don’t agree with at all.
Maybe. I also wouldn’t agree with that. But I think this really was all about making a sad Valentines Day comic rather than implying some genuine misdeed on Becky’s part.
Well, possibly. It’s not a DoA Valentine’s day comic unless someone’s sad, and the reason I’ve been so confused about it is that I know that Becky hasn’t done anything wrong by Dina and I know that wasn’t Willis’ intent with that, so I’m pretty lost.
Like, I actually prefer reading it without that last panel, because it has the implication of Becky feeling guilty over being told by Joyce to not feel so guilty, which I can sadly relate to.
Saddies may rule.
Saddies will rule. 🙁
Happy valentines.
I’m spitballing here because I’m confused as well, but maybe some of the insecurities Dina has voiced have occurred to Becks as well. It’s possible she’s worried that she might be using Dina as a. rebound, and that’s why we got that panel transition. This is all conjecture, though
See, I interpreted Becky’s expression in the fifth panel followed by the panel of Dina alone to mean Becky was thinking about Dina being alone and feeling bad about it.
I think it probably is. In comics shorthand, that’s a pretty common way of indicating that kind of thing.
However, Becky feeling bad about it doesn’t mean Becky should feel bad about it. Means she should call Dina and talk to her when she can.
Anymore than Joyce’s crises with her parents are Becky’s fault. Or whatever Joyce thinks is her fault here is actually her fault.
Do you ever get the feeling that a good portion of the main crew have issues with blaming themselves for things that aren’t actually their fault?
Yeah, well they’re human.
And as destructive as it can be it’s better than the reverse.
I dunno, I took it as a means of cutting back to the dorms, checking in with Dina, and keeping up the “sad Valentine’s day” comics of negative romantic situations, rather than the narrative saying “Becky is bad and should feel bad”.
I’m gonna wager tomorrow’s comic is Becky borrowing Joyce’s phone to call Dina and say nice things to her. And that this leads to an argument between Joyce and Carol.
I’m inclined to agree. Maybe not tomorrow, but in the next few days, at least.
I think the idea of the comic is to get us to think that Sarah’s advice to Dina was correct, that Becky IS still in love with Joyce and Dina’s just a rebound.
Whether that turns out to be ultimately true or not will presumably be revealed in the next few strips, but that’s kind of what I think Willis wants us to be thinking right now.
How often is Sarah’s relationship advice ever right? She’s on the ball about a lot of things but interpersonal relationships is 100% not one of those things.
I mean, she’s not wrong. Becky was in love with Joyce for years, got rejected, then immediately got with Dina. People don’t drop feelings like that that fast. Sarah’s timing may have been poor, but honestly I’ve seen people criticizing her for opining out something we all already assume to Dina, and that confuses the hell out of me.
Yeah, it’s not a great punchline cuz to be quite honest it’s just wrong. This isn’t the result of Becky being thoughtless it’s the result of her not being psychic.
Valentine’s Day can’t get started without an emotional gut punch from DOA! I think that’s how it works at least
Awwww, Dinasaur :c C’mere honey, let’s have some ice cream and talk about how time away from your partner is a good healthy thing and she’ll be home before you know it.
Becky had best find a way to make this up to Dina. Or else.
“Make up”? I disagree with that particular construction, but I imagine Becky will be more than happy to see Dina and be full of desires for infinite cuddles and retreating from the world with her the second she gets back. Especially with an entire weekend of Carol sniping at her every minute she’s alone with her.
I mean, after a weekend that awful, I can imagine Becky will want literally nothing else but to be with her girlfriend when she gets back. I know I would.
This may surprise you, but Dina also has thoughts and feelings.
Really? Gosh, that’s unpossible.
Okay, toning down my sarcasm, yes, indeed Dina has feelings. And her feelings are valid. Her jealousy and insecurities may be as misplaced as Becky’s, but they are real feelings she is going through.
And Becky right now does not know what Dina is going through because Becky has not told her. In the same way that I imagine Becky’s issues with and desperation for family is haunting her is hidden from Dina similarly because Becky has not told her about that and has deliberately kept that a secret for everyone close to her.
They need to talk and open up more to each other, not just about their awesomeness and appreciation for each other, but their fears and insecurities. They’re both wonderfully supportive partners and the more they communicate the healthier they become. And I hope they do not fall out of those good habits just because of these parts where they are not communicating the depth of their pains and worries*.
*Yes, I know the futility of saying that given that this is Dumbing of Age, but Bob forgive me I’ve got genuine hope for these crazy kids and I’ve really liked what I’ve seen of their dynamic and way of interacting with each other up to this point.
They’ve also only known each other for, what, a little over a week or so in DoA time and this is pretty much a first “real” dating relationship for both of them?
Yeah, learning to open up and communicate is going to take time.
You know, what you’re saying makes me think that, after this weekend, Becky and Dina will end up progressing in their relationship just out of the desire to spend more time together to forget the horribleness of this weekend.
I was partly making a joke. Since Becky talked to Dina before she left, I’m sure Dina understands. Sometimes you have to trust the ones you care about. Sometimes it’s hard, or it hurts to be alone, but these things happen.
As long as they can talk openly with each other when Becky get’s back, it’s not so much an issue as a minor road-bump.
I fear the Beckysaurus may already be sinking
it shall evolve to be amphibious!
I told them to stay away from the tar pits!
Sinking?
The name of the ship is Dinasaurus Becks!
Beckasaur or Terrible lizbians, per Willis when it first happened.
I’m honestly confused about what this strip is saying.
Becky thinks she’s a thoughtless jerk because she ran off with a friend she has feelings for instead of staying with her girlfriend.
This is just me, but Joyce has been treating Becky like nothing can be her fault lately, and with what happened recently it’s understandable that you’d want to make sure your friend doesn’t get any more emotional drama, but at the same time Becky is a human being, and she’s bound to feel guilty over some things just cause that’s human nature.
She’s still obviously not over Joyce, but this also conflicts with her new feelings for Dina. Add onto that the recent news that Joyce got to pretend to be married with Dorothy, who Becky views as a rival(?) in terms of being Joyce’s best friend, and you’ve got the Shamrock Shake of emotional whiplashes.
Really, it’s just a perfect illustration for why everyone should be bisexual and polyamorous. It’d solve like, every problem.
Nah genitals are gross. We should all be robots.
That’s option B. Either one works.
That’s just trading one set of issues for another, I think. Or maybe I’m just too close to the divide between being suited to monogamy and suited to polyamory to be particularly comfortable with either.
Ehh…someone who’s not wired to be bi and/or poly trying to be either one causes waaaaaaaaaay more problems than it solves.
I’m thinking more “wouldn’t it be handy if everyone was this” versus “everyone should try to be this.”
Eh, I’m pretty okay with being bi and mono.
Being bi is okay and being mono is okay, but someone being okay with themself is just plain wrong.
Becky realizing that her “I’m just trying to be totes supportive of my besty” angle wasn’t entirely altruistic and came at the expense of someone she claims to care about. At least that’s what that 5th panel face says to me. She might not be a thoughtless jerk, but she chose spur-of-the-moment to spend her time with those jerks instead of her girlfriend.
The strip is saying Becky really is a thoughtless jerk for running off with Joyce, and now comes the moment of truth where we learn if Becky is a good character making a mistake or if she’s been an selfish jerk all along and everyone’s kind of been willfully blind to it given her situation. A lot of her actions so far could be read through either lens, which is part of why she’s such a controversial character.
This isn’t even a mistake. Based on all of the information Becky had this was the right things to do. Hell, even if she’d known about Dina’s concerns this may still have been the right thing to do because leaving Joyce to deal with her fundamentalist family alone probably isn’t seeming too wise considering her own experience with fundamentalist family. Becky is not a mind reader, she has no reason to expect that Dina is worried about being a rebound and Dina has given her no reason to do so.
OUCH… ow… my feels. Poor Dina.
Holy crap, I just realised. Becky’s actual home is right near where they are. She will have to get clothes and documents at some point. That will be rough.
I mean Ross is in the hospital/jail and is awful, I don’t think many people will mind if she just steals a bunch of his stuff for cash.
See? We can make this positive! I’m definitely not grasping at straws here.
She can say to all the Church folk who’ll be there to pick up momentos and keepsakes so that they aren’t stolen by the “evil government”. She may even get a free camping trip out of it!
Mmmmm, that is some fine cynicism you have cooking there
Walking into your now empty childhood home is rough. Picking which things to keep, which to sell and which to pass on to others is rougher still.
I see you in that first panel, puppy-pup, you cutie pie you
Dina’s never going to get a fulfilling relationship, is she? Whole damn multiverse is out to get her.
Luckily, Willis has officially declared this canon.
So the rad haircut is doomed?
That’s Walkyverse Becky and Dina. Becky didn’t get the rad haircut in the Walkyverse.
… yet.
The last time this happened Dina exploded, so she’s already got a leg up.
There’s still time!
Yeah, like Ruth/Billie, the Walkyverse set a pretty low bar for success of Dina’s relationships.
No one’s dead! Win!
I don’t see why this relationship couldn’t be or is not fulfilling.
I mean, yes, she’s sad right now, because she’s heavy in NRE* and even short absences feel like an eternity under NRE. But learning to accept that absences are going to occur is a necessary part of building healthy boundaries and dynamics in a very young relationship that is probably both Becky and Dina’s first real relationships.
It’s 2 days. She’ll survive. And on Monday or hell, Sunday evening, they can kiss and hug, and melt away from the world together. Bob knows Becky will need it.
*NRE= New Relationship Energy, that early part of a relationship where red flags might as well be decorative china, you cannot keep your hands off each other, and so many endorphins and happy juice is running through your heads you’re probably legally an idiot. Can be the most fun part of a relationship, can be the most infuriatingly intense part of a relationship.
Wow. Dina really does deserve better.
Yes, and no. Yes, we all deserve to treat each other with all the love and compassion and respect that humanity can muster. And no, Dina went into this knowing that Becky still had strong feelings for Joyce, and that as the rebound girlfriend she would likely have times when she’s only getting tables scraps from the feast of affection that Becky still has for Joyce.
It’s like getting on a roller coaster with a friend in order to make lasting memories for the future, even though it might make you sick enough to puke. You don’t deserve to throw up all that cotton candy and funnel cake, but you got on the ride knowing the possible consequences, so you kinda do deserve it.
Dina got on the Becky-coaster. Will it end with vomit, exhilaration, or both? Whatever it is, it’s what Dina signed up for when she handed over her ticket.
So it’s Dina’s fault if Becks winds up breaking her heart. Hm.
That’s an excellent summary of what I did not say.
That is to say, the conclusion you came to had nothing to do with I wrote.
I completely disagree (unless Dina wants something else, in which case of course she’s always allowed to seek it instead). But saying someone deserves better because their girlfriend of ~10 days felt she had to support her best friend of 10-18 years (not sure if both were born there, but early childhood definitely implied) through what will be a very hard weekend is plain silly, regardless of if there is/was attraction- especially knowing that Joyce doesn’t return the affection and is straight.
I’d be fucking pissed if that was what my husband expected of me, at any point in our relationship.
summarily, it feels like you’re saying “Becky’s in a relationship now! She’s only allowed to support or spend time with Dina!”
Seriously. It’s like, Becky’s going on a weekend trip to help her closest friend who is in crisis and see if the closest thing she’s got to a family anymore will still love her even though she’s all lesbified.
She’s not running away with Joyce and getting gay married. She hasn’t broken up with Dina. She’s gone on an emergency weekend trip. This is not a real negative action.
They’re no more “in danger” or “broken up” than I was with the person I’m currently deeply in NRE with when they had to fly off for a funeral for 3 weeks. Like, yeah, shit happens. And under NRE you can miss the person and send pokey supportive hug text messages, but you gotta just deal with it and talk out the emotions that come up during it if they really bother you.
Honestly, I see Dina and Becky coming out of this weekend really fucking healthy, especially as Becky and Joyce seem to be creating more of a sister dynamic which will help Becky with getting through her lingering romantic feelings for Joyce and definitely especially because Becky is going to want nothing more than to lock herself in a room cuddling and crying on Dina’s lap for a week after this weekend of Hell.
Plus, it wasn’t a surprise last-minute decision, either! Becky offered to accompany her home (in front of Dina) so she wouldn’t face them alone. She reminded Joyce of her offer, then gently and friendly-like, nudged it into motion with Joyce’s dad. She had a nice goodbye moment with Dina (in view of dad, too)
Totes.
Sometimes, I wonder if I’m reading a completely different comic, cause in mine it seems like Becky brought this up early, it was in front of Dina, she took time to say goodbye to Dina, has regularly shown her appreciation and love for Dina when Dina has expressed her insecurities, and is depicted frequently to be unreasonably selfless.
But in so many others, I dunno, I guess Becky broke up with Dina to go fuck Joyce in front of her mom out of selfish lesbo lust or some such shit.
Yeah, it’s kind of weird how people are complaining about Becky and Dina’s relationship, considering how it seems to be the only one where the participants are acting reasonably, just because they’re having normal relationship insecurities.
True. But you have to admit that Cerberus’s comic in his last paragraph would be interesting to read Or at least my inner Joe thinks so.
Snoop: Food. Put it on the table. Then turn your backs. Now. Right now. I want that food. Where is it?
I like the interaction between Becky and Joyce, as it shall always remind me of my friend, and I only regret that she dislikes webcomics (no one is perfect) so I can’t really shove this on her and expect happiness to ensue.
And this is one of my favourite storylines so far. Some topics, I feel like the author is missing some vital element in humanity and how people interact, not in the broad brush strokes but in the nuances, and that somewhat distances me from the story. But especially where Joyce is concerned (or Dorothy and Walky, and Sal’s personality) the character writing is strong, and in this plot, while it’s not something I can apply personal experience to it’s still quite compelling and realistic. Particularly the opening conversation with Joyce; the image of two people experiencing their own subjective realities, and the ability to connect with each experience, is real.
so based on the setup of this strip…. we’re supposed to think becky is a thoughtless jerk?
its not really the first time beckys been portrayed negatively, im just surprised to see it
Depending on what you assume Becky’s motivations are, she’s either a really good person or a total prick. If you think she’s here to support Joyce, she’s not a selfish jerk. If you agree with Sarah’s interpretation that she’s still in love with Joyce, she’s kind of an asshole and Dina really is just some rebound.
In this strip, I don’t think even Becky knows for sure why she’s there. I think he question in panel 1 isn’t actually rhetorical, and Joyce’s “I’m still a little fuzzy on that” reinforces this.
its definitely not an either/or thing.
i do think shes here to support joyce. i also think shes well within her rights to do so, even if it WAS just for her, and dina shouldnt need to be hurt by it. i also think that, nonetheless, dina is clearly hurt by it.
and sarahs interpretation is blatantly correct. dina is a rebound. becky and dina have known each other for days, theyre not deeply in love.
becky is also frequently a huge jerk to dorothy for no reason, and this has been acknowledged by the other characters.
Sarah’s right that she’s a rebound, but she’s wrong in her implication that that inherently means anything about the viability of their relationship. They could be true destined lovers tied by the red string and Sarah would still say they’re doomed because she’s a cynical misanthrope who expects the worst of everyone at all times.
Also I’m not convinced that Dorothy thinks that Becky is a huge jerk to Dorothy which is what’s important. Becky may be trying to be jerky to Dorothy in kind of a joke-ish way but she’s missing wildly.
Wow, no. Becky is not an asshole for being still in love with Joyce, and it doesn’t mean that Dina is ‘just’ a rebound. News flash: you can, in fact, be in love with two people at once! And it doesn’t make you a jerk!
And she’s handling this shit situation as well as she can. She’s kept Dina in the loop for all of this ‘visiting Joyce’s home for this weekend’ decision-making drama. Yes, Dina is full of doubts about Becky leaving her. Yes, Becky is full of doubts about leaving Dina (which is what this strip is implying, as far as I can tell). They still love each other and have the damn near healthiest relationship in this entire comic. And Becky is here to support Joyce, absolutely regardless of any lingering romantic/sexual feelings.
Seriously.
Becky and Dina have bar none the healthiest relationship of all of the non-parents in this comic (and even a good number of the parents).
Of course. It’s founded on dinasours. Can’t improve on that.
“dinasours”
I can only salute you! You deserve an internerd!
More like we’re supposed to think that Becky thinks she’s a thoughtless jerk.
but theres no indication that beckys thinking of dina. were just being shown dina as though its a reminder to us specifically.
Yeah, it’s not super clear what the intention is here. If it’s “Becky thinks she’s a thoughtless jerk for leaving Dina alone” then yeah that’s accurate but if it’s “Beck actually is a thoughtless jerk for leaving Dina alone” then it’s simplistic nonsense.
But… we are shown Becky’s doubt face in response to Joyce’s statement. We know that Becky is thinking Joyce is wrong in SOME way. Dina being what Becky is thinking about fits well as an explanation of that.
Dina being sad and alone and insecure is Willis’s valentines day gift to us readers. It’s a somewhat twisted relationship and we keep coming back for more.
its hard to tell what interpretation willis is trying to push sometimes
I never get the sense that Willis is really trying to push any interpretation, at least when it comes to non-villainous characters.
He’s really good at letting characters make flawed decisions and not condemn it, like with Sal advocating not going to the police after the party incident, and Billie thinking she’s toxic.
he controls the narrative and how things are set up, and is aware the putting two things side by side like this implies a direct connection.
and as for the “not condemning” characters flawed decisions–generally only when it comes to protagonists
missed that you already said “non-villainous characters”. point still stands
Actually Sal wasn’t wrong with the ‘don’t go to the police’ advice. There was like a 1% chance police would actually help in any way and not make things much, much worse by doubting Joyce’s word and Joyce’s innocence and victim-blaming for the max, and most definitely not do anything about the actual perpetrator. There isn’t any proof, after all!… and in any case, he didn’t ACTUALLY rape her, so no harm, no foul, right?…
Sal was SO right.
He still hasn’t implemented MRML (Mind Reading Markup Language). Bastige.
Maybe we’re just supposed to be as confused about it as Becky, in which case, bravo Willis!
Naw! Maybe more… Becky realizing there’s some things she feels like a thoughtless jerk about that might be more valid then trying to shield her best friend from flak from parents. She said goodbye to Dina and it’s just for a weekend, so leaving for a weekend isn’t it…
…maybe she’s realized Dina is sort of a rebound for her? Which doesn’t mean their relationship is doomed, but she might be worried that Dina’s more invested in this relationship than she is. It’s something they might want to talk about.
Oh, man, there’s so much in this one.
Panel 1: Oof, Becky’s mask is slipped off. That Carol comment hit her way deeper and way sharper than she had prepared for and now she’s got a full weekend of putting up with that ahead of her. I think she may have assumed that no one could put her in as much danger and hurt her as badly as her father, but was not necessarily prepared for the type of passive-aggressive victim-blaming that Carol has decided to open up with.
Also, Joyce, ouch. You know darn well why she came along.
Panel 2: Clever girl. Joyce has already snooped out that her mom said something awful. I think the combination of Becky’s usual poker face slipping and comment may have clued her in.
Panel 3: 🙁 Oh, damn, Becky really has internalized what her dad and Joyce’s mom have said and really does believe that she is an imposition into people’s lives that “ruins” everything, hasn’t she?
I mean, there have been major hints that this is a major theme running through her head*, but this feels like the first major confirmation since her kidnapping that it is still something she deeply believes about herself.
*http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/lob/
And sadly, I identify a lot with that, because when you face shit like Becky has faced, well, it gets real fucking easy to blame yourself and see yourself as a shitheel that needs to make up for how “hard” you make everyone’s lives.
Panel 4: Though, with that “my fault” comment by Joyce, it looks like she’s not the only one who blames herself for things that are not her fault. Both of them are way too hard on themselves and too selfless for their own goods sometimes.
Panel 5: Becky totes believes she’s not to blame for everything and anything… yes siree Bob.
Panel 6: :c Oh man, Dina… You just know that she put her Dinosaur book next to her because she’s used to Becky reading it next to her and was hoping that having it nearby would somehow lessen how much she misses and worries about her baby dyke. And that’s just sad, even though getting used to boundaries is a healthy thing in the long run.
Happy Valentine’s Day 2016.
Happy Valentine’s Day 2015.
Happy Valentine’s Day 2014.
Really, I think this is just demonstrating that 90% of Willis’s storylines involve relationship issues.
90% of all storylines involve relationship issues. People tell stories about relationships because humans like listening to stories about relationships.
romance issues, then
Okay, then we are down to 85%.
2017 will have Joe just sitting in class tapping his pencil. “Man, nothing exciting ever happens around here.”
Screencap this.
[screencap this] copied that
theres enough time that willis could see this comment and decide to do exactly that
i hope he does
Is it…it it bad that Joe’s line immediately made me think of FLCL, and all the relationship issues THAT entails?
Happy Valentine’s Day 2013.
Man, it’s been a year and a half since we saw Daisy.
I feel like I should be yelling the traditional “DAMN YOU WILLIS,” but it just keeps coming out sad and subdued.
Happy Birthday, Hovertext!
How to know you’re reading a David Willis story:
Every character with good intentions is constantly fucking up and inadvertently hurting other characters.
That sounds like life.
Stupid life.
Wait, am I missing something? Why did Joyce say that this is her fault? How was she a thoughtless jerk?
Joyce feels anything bad that happens is her fault.
Which is really, really, REALLY sad when you consider what happened to her at her first party.
joyce is still guilty about having originally shared the same views as the people who want to hurt becky
shes actually been pretty supportive the entire time but she associates herself pretty heavily with her religion so its hard to separate that
Probably doesn’t help that she’s seen the fellow members of her religion do and say the most awful things and is starting to suspect that the edifice of what she was taught was pure morality is not so great.
She’s starting to see her background for what it is and doesn’t fully trust herself to be an ally yet. I’m not entirely sure she’s seen/ wants to see how much she’s been moving away from all that and how much she’s grown. And I include the latter there, because this arc has been all about how terrified she is of the fact that she’s genuinely becoming an ally and that is putting her in direct odds of the faith of her raising.
As someone in a similar situation (w/o a DIRECT connection a la Becky), you are spot on. No matter how supportive I become, it’s not good enough, and it’s too little too late. Conversely, there’s constant guilt over turning back on things friends and family hold sacred (and that’s just if they don’t become visibly upset). The Church is a messed place, a lot of the time.
Joyce now knows that Becky has felt this way for years. And never felt safe telling Joyce about it. I think Joyce blames herself for that.
I’m not sure that’s true, though Joyce may think so. Becky’s felt this way for years, but I don’t think she really realized it until they were off to college. I think she said so, somewhere along the line.
I don’t think Joyce has a hidden agenda in that statement: I think she is really trying to reassure her friend: which is good, as Joyce has pretty much been curled up around her own problems.
I tried to figure out Becky’s face in that panel: I think maybe she feels really hurt by dear Carols lovely greeting, and that she is missing spending time with Dina, and that yeah – she feels like she is to blame for the crap that went down.
Said it before and I will say it again: Becky has nothing to apologize for and Joyce is the one who should be making a big fuss over her, because she is the one who had the gun pulled on her, was chased into the woods, was car-napped, and smacked by her father and then lucky to crawl out of the car he wrecked.
Joyce had absolutely nothing compared to that happen to her. She saw Becky kidnapped and that was frightening. But that could have been it.
Howerver, then she chose to ride with Sal on the bike to the scene, and then she got her frustrations out by laying a terrific roundhouse right on Toedad’s jaw. This ride and the strike were her decisions. Good for her. So what is all the crying about for poor Joyce?
Joyce should be going out of her way for Becky, not the other way round. If Becky is really just letting all this roll off her, she’s amazing. But, she seems to be holding in a lot, from faces like in the above panel. And I really feel for her.
Ok, let’s not play Trauma Olympics here, okay? Becky absolutely was hurt, and people who are implying she should neglect herself and dance around Joyce are 100% in the wrong.
But Joyce was also hurt, and there’s no point in and no way to compare it to Becky’s hurt quantitatively. She was near raped, had her entire worldview shaken, had a gun pulled on her by a trusted adult. Just because she chose to bike-totingly chase after Becky doesn’t mean having to make that choice didn’t traumatize her. We KNOW she’s hurt.
And therefore, saying that she should neglect her own trauma and dance around Becky is not right either.
I mean, my opinion is that dancing around Becky is helping her feel better about herself and is the grounding she needs right now with her entire world upending itself on her, so dancing around Becky IS the right answer at the moment, and she should keep doing that, and it’s a good sign that she’s capable of it right now.
But not because she wasn’t hurt.
Yep, Becky is so ~selfless~ and ~giving~ that she tagged along with her best friend/longtime crush Joyce on her trip home. A trip that was supposed to be JOYCE’S time to rest and recuperate after a back-to-back series of traumas, and is now instead All About Becky (again), complete with Good Ol’ Becky cracking jokes about the time she pulled a surprise kiss on Joyce, WHICH JOYCE SPECIFICALLY TOLD HER SHE WAS UNCOMFORTABLE WITH AND ASKED HER TO STOP.
And that’s WITH Becky leaving her new girlfriend behind (who is notably not good with social signals and relationships in general) without having a proper conversation with her about why she’s doing this, as is apparent from the fact that Becky suddenly feels guilty when reminded that, oh yeah, SHE HAS A GIRLFRIEND.
But that’s all right. Becky has suffered. She’s EARNED this.
Nothing else matters.
What’s wrong chum, ya’ seem upset.
Because fucking 4CHAN is LESS close-minded and hypocritical when it comes to the characters in this comic these days and I don’t understand, I TRUSTED the posters here, I trusted Willis, I thought reading this would make me a better person and it has in so many ways but it’s getting things wrong in BIG ways that practically no one here is willing to admit and this point it would be a goddamn relief for someone to tell me the problem is all in my head and all in my privilege, but it’s all gone wrong and I hate it.
Maybe ya’ just need some tea. I know that helps me calm down when I’m stressed. I like mixing in a just a little bit of honey to give it a sweet flavor.
Don’t really have nothin’ for all that butthurt though.
Well for starters, you are objectively wrong about Becky making things “about her”, because all she did was say hi to her best friend’s mom before she went all fundinator on her for existing. Becky also told Joyce she’d come with to support her, with Dina’s full knowledge since she was right there when they had this conversation, and Becky said goodbye to Dina off-panel when Hank and Joyce were talking. It’s mentioned and everything.
Like, yeah, if Becky was going “I totes kissed you without your consent lawl” two strips ago then that is undeniably shitty, but otherwise I think you’re missing a lot of context.
“4chan”
oh well that explains a fucking lot
It does? I mean I mostly visit /toy/ and /asp/, and ain’t ever come across anybody awful.
We have enough to complain about what with Gunpla and Triple Haitch burying people.
4chan’s got a bad rep, as if it’s some sort of hivemind. There’s people of lots of differing opinions on there but most people just focus on the bad parts because they’d prefer to box everyone in.
It’s generally a good idea to stay away from /mlp/ if you wanna’ keep your sanity.
Certain sites create these cultures around themselves. To use an innocuous example we’re all familiar with, it’s like us making drum jokes and purposefully typing bongo instead of a certain anti-woman slur. Except in 4chan’s case, it’s homophobia, misogyny, transphobia, racism and antisemitism, and probably lots of others I can’t remember offhand. It’s not present in every sentence on every board, but there’s this…miasma of it hovering never far off.
I recommend never visiting /v/ then.
There is a /wsg/(worksafe gif) board that’s pretty much used for John Cena trolls and cute animal videos.
I never plan to, but thank you for the headsup anyway.
Oh, sure there’s lots of that. No one censors themselves because they don’t have to. But honestly, once you get past that miasma, I can actually have some pretty interesting discussions. And sure, there’s times when I feel like I’m in an uphill battle against people who’re bigots who’ll never change but I’ve honestly had just as many situations where the opposite is true. So long as your strong enough to get through all the bullshit you can usually find like minded people. And because of their anonymity you get an odd sense that they’re not putting on a facade just to please people or stay within the guidelines.
Impossible strength should not be a requirement for humanity or participation in culture.
4chan experienced a mass exodus since moot decided to abdicate and sell the site to a third party after a certain debacle I won’t deign to mention by name. Sadly this means a lot of the comradery that once existed isn’t there anymore and the userbase is far smaller.
As for miasma… yes, but at the same time it’s honest – more so then any other social gathering spot I’ve ever seen. You just learn to tune out certain things – it’s like banner blindness but applies to comments.
Personally, I used to frequent /b/, but it’s been years. Now I frequent /d/ for my… needs.
@Yotomoe and DarkVeghetta That’s just it. If this is what they’re like when they’re not putting on a facade and being honest…well, frankly, I don’t need to waste my valuable time on them. Handwaving toxic and dehumanizing bigotry (I’ve seen screenshots that literally made me feel ill) with “yeah, but it’s honest” makes me feel uncomfortable for reasons I can’t quite articulate this early.
@Shiro
Yeah, there’s assholes on 4chan. But I do like the fact that people tend to not put up as much of a facade. I might not like certain people but I like it even less when people act a certain way or need to censor themselves because they’re worried that they’ll get hated for it. Once again keep in mind that 4chan isn’t all one board. Believe it or not I’ve seen plenty of moments when someone has been educated about issues or even received sympathy for something. Things which may not have happened had they not had the courage to ask a questionable thing or even say something that’s incorrect and be corrected. And yeah, there’ll always be edge-lords who try to say the worst thing because they think it’s funny. So if you can’t stand that kind of thing, then yeah, definitely don’t check it out. But I refute that it’s just some sort of hivemind of hateful spited people and to look down on someone for using it isn’t good.
Being the origin of a large number of modern hate movements, harassment campaigns, doxing hubs, and a general culture of enforced apathy where caring about anything or having a personality are seen as (homophobic slur) behavior.
And the thing about the chans is that no one who’s ever tried and point me to the so-called “good” part of 4chan has ever not pointed me to a /wordsgohere/ that wasn’t utterly choked with normalized sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and racism.
And the central problem that causes that is that the culture is all about being anonymous. Being the “norm”. But in our fucked up culture, the “norm”, what is seen as “normal” and “without identity” is a white cis straight dude. And so white cis straight dude culture rules and dominates over everything else.
It’s why channers have convinced themselves it’s ironically okay to call each other (homophobic slurs) all the time and throw around the t-slur more often than a pack of frat bros harassing a trans-woman on the street. Why the chans have demonized identity and why most minority members end up having to escape them in order to start feeling good about themselves in any way.
It’s why /pol/ has come to define them. Fuck, it’s why /pol/ is now the central recruiting station for the online presence of white supremacists and neo-nazis and why those members have flooded to every other corner of the site. It’s why it’s seemed “ironically” normal to post old-school anti-semitic images. It’s why sexism is so rife that it’s almost hard to notice, because it is simply everywhere.
It’s why the reputation of the chans is garbage despite all the totally cool stuff that’s totally happening in my corner. In many ways, it’s like Reddit in that way. There might be a corner with less awful and that may feel like a really okay place, but it is stewing in such raw sewage and has been so toxic to anyone marginalized that they’ve all left or gone silent about it, that no one is daring to bring up internally how awful it all is.
And if it feels I am being unfair, then tough. I’ve seen too many good friends have their lives ruined simply because some chan fucks targeted them for being feminists online or because they’ve participated in BLM or because they dared be trans women in gaming. So tough shit to your feelings regarding my “fairness”.
I mean, that’s pretty much true of any place on the internet though.
Hell the world even. We don’t live in a utopia because people have different opinions and ideas, which is a GOOD thing mind you, but it also has the drawback and having shitbags exist who can’t respect their fellow human being.
Still hasn’t stopped me from finding good people on 4chan. Of course they get outnumbered by the bad quickly enough, I’ve seen people try to help each other there as much as I have on tumblr or twitter. It’s all about those little moments of sunshine during a cloudy day.
Indeed. Which I guess is a major turn-off for me.
I encounter enough of “the world” in my day-time running hours. Of having to “weather being outnumbered by the bad”, that I’m wary of apologetics for doing so, but much more intensely and with way more violent social hatred for vulnerability, as part of one’s recreation time.
Like, I wear enough armor just getting through my typical day. So the idea of putting on even more just to weather a never-ending avalanche of (homophobic slur) being added on to every noun on the planet and uttered every 5.2 nanoseconds really doesn’t appeal to me.
And a side effect of that is that I tend to side-eye defenses of it, because I feel that those who can ignore it are doing so either at their own expense or out of an immense amount of privilege of not being the target of those types of slur or casual hatreds.
Which, everyone has a right to find community where they can, but the chans are definitely one of those things that make me wary from the get-go.
I definitely feel like you should avoid 4chan. Any merit others can find in it would be much to overshadowed by all of the other stuff. I don’t think you could handle the toxicity of the site. Hell, sometimes it’s enough for me to need to step away. It can be shitty but honestly I feel the same way about tumblr, youtube, or any other sites for that matter. That’s why it’s always a good idea to disconnect from the internet for a while. It may seem hard because of how much it penetrates our society but honestly, just little things like not going online, turning off your phone for a while (unless you’ve got important calls), just listening to the world around you and not getting the constant stream of information can be liberating. Not that the real world is always perfect, but it’s certainly better than closing yourself off from it. And not just the world of people. But the world in general. Personally my favorite past-time is drawing people on the train, and listening to the dialects of inner city people.
Indeed. I’ve had a long history of diving into all sorts of toxicity (used to write for a snark blog going into the depths of the worst of right-wing articles and mocking the intense bigotry and vileness within) and unpacking it for funsies, fighting with bob-awful trolls and eviscerating them. But it gets exhausting and these days, with teaching and still being in emotional recovery, I’ve drifted from those as SIWOTIng all the time was bad for my health.
Here’s my little corner of internet I still mess with for the most part and for the rest I lurk and do real-world stuff instead.
Also, I feel like turning off the internet isn’t my problem so much as ever turning off teacher mode. Like. Ever.
@Cerberus:
“modern hate movements” – hate ain’t always a bad thing. At times it’s quite apt and well-deserved, and from my experience that’s just what most of those where – well, except for the occasional troll pool takeover, those are just silly.
“enforced apathy” – quite the opposite… well, depends on the board. If you want apathy, try wizardchan (no, don’t – it’s by far the wost place I’ve ever seen online or irl) – THAT place is apathy.
“having a personality are seen as (homophobic slur) behavior” – 4chan does have an interesting enforced social conformity within each board. Mind you, the each board has a very different take on most issues, but the outside world likes to conflate them into one 4chan viewpoint – something that rarely actually exists.
“And so white cis straight dude culture rules and dominates over everything else.” – /d/ begs to differ.
“in order to start feeling good about themselves” – the only chan that I know of that would cater to such things would be it’s pony board (created by bronies after a titanic battle using the powers of tolerance and friendship). Aside from that no place on 4chan is intended to make one feel good about themselves (maybe /fit/?). Each board scratches a very specific set of itches, but always in a anonymous way.
Ugh… /pol/. No one likes those guys, not even /b/.
“if it feels I am being unfair” – yes and no. Just coming from a different perspective. To use a native chan phrase: “/b/ was never good”, though I’m taking it out of context.
@Ctrl+C D@
“having shitbags exist” – in spades, sadly. Still, it’s good to know your enemy.
“It’s all about those little moments of sunshine duri
ng a cloudy day.” – I’ve seen quite a lot of suicidal threads on /b/ and the response was mostly one of compassion and often really good advice (ofc, also malice and ridicule, but those where in the minority for once).
@Cerb again
“I encounter enough of “the world” in my day-time running hours. ” – Personally I usually don’t interact with such… elements. Hence it’s a strange sort of tonic to have a place where I know I’ll meet them.
@Yotomoe
So, you’re talking more about introspection and a pause to being social? I fully agree. Constant interactions with others can and will eventually become tiresome and stressful – it’s important for
me personally to have periods of self-reflection and solitude. I find such in single player gaming, usually.
@Cerb
“and do real-world stuff instead”
We’ve designed a collective dream, but we brought our nightmares – waking up is sometimes preferable.
“turning off teacher mode” – we’re all teachers and students, to some or another.
Bwuh? What “hate movements” from 4chan do you think are a good thing? I’ll grant that some stuff Anonymous does is good, but that’s (1) really separate from 4chan proper and (2) even that is balanced out by flat out trolling–since “for the lolz” seems to most often mean “enjoying the misery of others.” Plus (3), the good stuff Anonymous does is pretty much always an attack, not spreading hate per se.
The problem with 4chan is the anonymity. It’s the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory at it’s worst. Without moderation, it just inevitably brings in the worst people. Then it’s basically self-perpetuating.
It’s actually the one place that made me question my basic assumption that most people are generally decent. I had to remind myself that most people don’t like the crap that goes on there. Even those of you defending it admit that you have to find diamonds in a sea of dung.
DV-
The hate movements I speak of are not merely people who hate, but legitimately recognized by SPLC hate movements and the things they are doing aren’t just being angry and hateful or making casual slurs a common thing, but actively plotting as a group to literally ruin someone’s life and try and drive them to suicide. Just to clarify myself.
I mean, I do believe that the chans have normalized a base line of hate and toxicity that is a general underlying culture and I see it in the “well at least it’s not X” excuses for things like the ubiquity of referring to literally everyone as a form of (homophobic slur) in the “nice” parts, but when I mean “modern hate movements” I mean that in the sense of things that the SPLC keeps an eye on.
trikly – I think that’s a big part of it. I think it’s also a matter of who is presumed to be conversing. We messy humans have always assumed our privileged members to be our default humans, so when you have a community of “defaults” without “identity”, it creates and codifies whiteness, maleness, straightness, cisness, and so on. And that just marks the base culture on which awful is added.
And given how awful general culture is, it’s really noteworthy when cultures like the chans somehow manage to be worse. And that’s before factoring in the things like the doxxing campaigns, literal white supremacists on /pol/, and the whole edgelord culture of saying the most awful things possible for the lulz that tends to flourish in places like /b/.
4chan has a bad reputation that it 100% earned through its concerted effort to nurture a climate of unremitting hostility towards anyone not cis, straight, white, and male. There are no “good” parts of 4chan there are parts that look good in contrast to its worst parts but are actually still pretty rife with the same shit just less gleefully so.
There are good parts to it, but nothing there is purely white or black because of honesty. For better or worse it’s honest.
Different shades or grey can be a good thing, if you can find the shade that’s pleasing to yourself.
I hope that was an inelegant turn of a phrase. It’s one thing to tolerate the bad because you like the good, but you still would ideally want it to be all good.
And I don’t really think that 4chan is honest. A whole lot of people there are lying because anonymity means there are no consequences for doing so.
@DarkVeghetta That’s about as valid of a point as someone saying they support Trump because “at least he’s honest.” Like, a) not even actually all that honest and b) being honest about how unrepentantly awful they are is not laudable. I’ll take insincere tolerance over honest bigotry any day thank you very much. I’m a-okay with people keeping their dehumanizing and awful opinions to themselves and pretending to be decent human beings.
@ Emily
A) by “honest, they mean they don’t try and censor themselves to please the general populace. (mostly) They still lie and make stuff up all the time, obviously
B)Again, you’re implying ever part of 4chan is just people saying, doing, or acting on awful things. There’s different boards and threads for all kinds of people and while there’s shitty people on 4chan, there’s also really cool people. And lumping them all together as if 4chan is a big breeding ground of scum just inaccurate. Some people are honest AND kind.
And on that note I’ll say, I’d honestly prefer sincere intolerance from insincere intolerance, because at the very least I can argue against the former. And it may be an uphill battle sometimes but the best way for someone to learn or adjust their behavior is to put all of their feelings out in the world and have others pick it apart and put more insight on it. Instead of holding your tongue, bottling it up, and only releasing it in places where you KNOW people will be like minded or by voting or something.
But that’s just me personally :P.
Soooo much this. Every defense of the chans and places like Reddit I’ve seen have all been “dude, there’s this corner that’s actually pretty great” and when I’ve followed their links I see message boards flooded with casual slurs or side-tracks into how all women are evil for not dating lonely neckbeards. Just draining and toxic places that view themselves as better because there’s so much worse on the same board and at least they’re not stooping that low.
It’s… San Francisco Syndrome. What I mean by that is that SF has a reputation for being extremely liberal (compared to the rest of America) and this is often treated as something of pride, but also stymies additional progress, because so many in the city believe that the liberal reputation should carry them through and they don’t actually have to work hard to continue growing things and improving life for people.
And people were very shocked when I moved into that area right out of Denmark and found the culture awful in comparison because “but we’re so much better than the rest of the culture”. Which was true, but was also a major backwards step compared to the Danish culture I was enjoying previously. Relativity makes blinders for us all.
The “honesty” argument:
I see that said about places like the chans a lot. Hey, at least it’s an honest bigotry. Except as people note, the chans are still filled with constant lies, most damningly that everyone is straight and white and hates the targets everyone is expected to hate. And that leads into the problem, “honest” bigotry is treated as not really “honest” when people call it out and that’s because what it is is just a festering wound of open bigotry that feels sustained and empowered by the culture that surrounds it. It’s a Southern town that doesn’t believe it’ll face any legal repercussions for shooting at black people who wander in the “wrong part of time”.
That’s not novel or enriching or having an honesty. It’s bigotry without fear of censure by the surrounding culture. And well, there’s already enough of that in our daily society.
I can’t get on board with the “sincere intolerance is better than insincere tolerance” bandwagon. Yeah, the insincere kind sucks, but at least there’s an acknowledgement it’s bad. The open intolerance just feeds back on itself and gets worse and nastier as more people find support for their prejudices. And that can lead to actual actions that never would have happened with that support.
And wrapping it all back around, isn’t that where we are in the comic? In a little community that’s sincerely intolerant. That supported Ross’s bigotry until he went after his own daughter with a gun and some of whom support him still, even if he went a little too far. That doesn’t happen without the reinforcement.
There’s also the thing that what makes bigots feel “safer” to vomit forth their hatred without “censors” is also what makes it unsafe for everyone else. It’s why comment thread moderation was invented in the first place. Cause if you have to be tough enough to weather endless streams of bigots simply to participate, you make it easier to have communities that are dominated by said bigots. And that’s the tragedy that befell /pol/ taking it from something awful beyond all reason to the literal main online recruitment hub for white supremacist groups.
thejeff-
That’s a really apt parallel.
@TheJeff
If we’re using the comic as a reference, we still have Mr. Brown, Joyce’s father, who not only didn’t like ross, but (while it’s possibly begrudgingly) accepts her.
I say this to say is that your argument depends on the idea that everyone on 4chan is just awful.
Now I’m not a pure angel or anything, but I like to think I’m pretty cool. I don’t have any issues with gay people or people of other races or religions, and while over the years I’ve become increasingly aware of trans people and had growing pains, I always try to call people by how they identify because I think first and foremost I should respect people.
I say that to say that while I understand I have shortcomings in certain areas, I’m not just a complete hateful nazi propaganda monster. Neither are any of my friends that use it as far as I can tell you. Most of us either avoid those parts of it, or just but heads with people we disagree with. And while you may say we’re the exception to the rule, I’ll say that these kinds of people make up a good 40% of the site.
You don’t have to go to 4chan. And you don’t have to like it, either. But, and I mean you might so this might be a moot point, if you think I’m just a generally shitty person because I go on there I going to have to say that I disagree. If you DO hate me though, then I guess that’s something I’ll have to accept. 😛
Nobody is saying that everyone who uses 4chan is automatically an evil bigot that’s a ridiculous misrepresentation of what’s being said. 4chan AS A COMMUNITY has a toxic culture that perpetuates and normalizes prejudice. This no more means every user is a bigot than my saying that America is not a progressive nation means that every American is a reactionary.
Then I can concede to that. I just don’t like it when people try to box everyone into “groups” based on where they’re from or what they do. Because you can be a real cool person who uses 4chan. And you can be a piece of shit on tumblr. :3
Pretty much what Emily said.
I don’t have enough experience with 4chan to say much about it. I was speaking specifically to the broader idea that honest bigotry is a better policy than insincere tolerance.
Calling out the bigotry, not letting it go unchallenged and become normal works. Slowly and over the long run, but it does work. Tolerating the bigots works too, if what you want is more of them.
Of course. Good people can thrive, find community and can be awesome even from toxic communities. In thejeff’s parallel we see it with Becky, Joyce, and Hank’s growth in comic. And in Emily’s parallel we see it in all the awesome Americans.
Hell, I grew up in a general culture way worse than even the chans and hopefully I’ve stumbled out more or less all right in my adulthood.
It’s like the fact that people can enjoy problematic fiction, people are people and try and make good (or bad) wherever they go, no matter what surrounds them and can be sustained by things with negative elements to them (Bob knows that if I needed perfect cultures or fiction, I’d have no culture at all).
It’s just a shame that the baseline of toxicity is so high on chans to the detriment of any good people who try and use it.
@Yotomoe Well, we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one, because I absolutely do think less of people who self-identify as 4channers, especially ones who insist 4chan is better than [other more socially conscious space], for the reasons I’ve stated.
I guess I can’t stop ya from doing that. Hope it doesn’t mean you dislike me too, but I guess so long as you’re cool about it it’s not too big a deal. I’d rather not worry myself.
Its not your ( just ) you privilege thats failing you.
Its your sociopathic lack of empathy for people different from you.
Faux News( ? ) has taught you that their is a hierarchy of people that deserve your empathy and protection, and some people are just outside that.
Oner comic cant fix what wrong in your head. Joyce is the straight-sheltered blonde-haired Blue-eyed innocent christian Naif Straight Girl. Youve been taught she always must be rescued. ( Even though shes kick-ass strong, punches without a second thought and Knocked out Toe-dad )
The red-headed spunky lesbian … shes outside your circle of empathy entirely. She doesnt a family a loves to you . even though shes lost the most.
But this is where you are screwed up the most! Becky is here FOR her friend. She is here out of concern. She explains this explicitly. You ought to be empathizing with Beckys desire to protect Joyce from her toxic family dynamics. Instead you are playing “hate the lesbian” .
Maybe youve been taught that men cant be vulnerable at all. or upset. And maybe you see becky as ‘the guy’ to Joyces fem. So how dare becky not be Stoic and play out a toxic male gender role where only women are alowed to get hurt, feel and suffer.
Because If you stop thinking like that for one moment , you will realize whatever crazy shit you are going through in real life, you have a right to feel that too.
And why isnt someone comforting you?
( my guess is that you are pushing people away, lashing out, getting your social cues from 4 chan!! literally the worst place in the world to learn how not be a socially awkward asshole ) .
take a break. Get Help. Call your mom. Get a hug.
Please just Attack Beckys haircut, too.
Now that youve done ‘straight-splain how’ Lesbians cant even talk about kissing— without it being Homo-talk-rape . Maybe you can tell us her undercut is Homohair assault.
I think your homophobia has “earned” something.
I mean, Joyce is entitled to not having lurid comments directed at her. She’s told Becky she doesn’t want her to say that, and then she (maybe, Cerberus put forth that she was referring to how happy she was to see Joyce again for the first time in weeks, which is something I happily ascribe to) went and did it anyway, referring to the time she kissed her without her consent. That ain’t cool no matter who you are. I don’t get to accuse my straight dude friends of biphobia if they aren’t comfortable with me hitting on them, and even if it was wholly motivated by prejudice I’m still not entitled to it.
And like, it’s not really that horrible and catastrophic, since Becky was under unimaginable amounts of fear and duress after everything that happened and built up a narrative where Joyce must have been in love with her all along, and then later apologized for it (whereupon Joyce flat out told her she wasn’t mad and that she never felt unsafe with her), but if Becky was treating that like some kind of badge of honor, that she’s glad she forcibly kissed Joyce, then, well, that’s super crappy.
It would, but we’ve seen Becky beating herself up about kissing her out of the blue:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/bubbling/
And then following it up with the best consent practices of literally everyone in the comic. With Dina she has never once made the first move other than expressing interest, because that conversation with Joyce about her sexual assault has her on hyper-vigilance mode and she never again wants to be a person who surprise kisses and risks triggering that sort of thing.
So it’d just be wildly out of character for her to have been making a “lol, remember that time I just straight up kissed you out of the blue and could have seriously triggered your PTSD” type comment.
Yep. Becky’s a bit flippant but otherwise has been incredibly respectful of Joyce’s boundaries and goes into Best Friend Panic Mode whenever she feels she’s crossed a boundary (well okay like one time she said Joyce making weird faces was a turn on but whatever, NBD, and that was during her very first coming out to an audience).
It’s probably just because the dog was slobbering all over Joyce that I associated her “been there” comment with the kiss, rather than just being ecstatic to see Joyce again.
Look all that may be true.
But Becky isnt accusing Joyce of homophobia. Your analogy misses.
Your homophobia detector is wildly, wildly miscalibrated.
( take the batteries out ? You put them in backwards, maybe?
what OP system are running? windows xp? )
Freaking out over Talk of homo kissing in public is almost always hysterical homophobia. Its a thing. really.
No becky hasn’t Tormented Joyce with it, and Joyce even bragged about it once. They are friends, In due time it will be a running Joke.
She didnt “forcibly Kiss Joyce” . She led up to it. It was romantic, if shocking for Joyce and becky in retrospect. Joyce even led her on ( accidentally ) .
It was no more “forced” than when Dorothy Kissed Walky.
If you didnt ragequit the comic when Sal had a slipshine after kidnapping Jason, TA ; please dont slut-shame Becky over an innocent Kiss.
One day @Spencer, I hope a hot Chic or sexy dude you like and trust ,
and are good friends with , snuggles close to you and gives you a sexy liplock —without a prenup contract first signed in triplicate in blood. i hope that happens to you.
Maybe youlll even get an instant boner and fall in love; and be miserable for years. It can be happen.
You’re kind of a gigantic creep when you want to be.
Yeah, kinda with Spencer on this one, sorry. That’s a bit… really not that okay to say to a stranger on the internet.
That damned Internet.
I wasnt really OK with @Spencer implying Becky did anything wrong or shameful with the Becky/Joyce first kiss.
Especially when Joyce already said that falling in love with your childhood friend was the most romantic thing ever.
( http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/related/ )
Or defending Straight Privilege , and then couching it in a homophobic trope of ‘violation of straight peoples consent not to even think about same sex affection.’ ( Referencing this comic http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/home-sweet-home/ )
These are things I strongly disagree with, and I think are worthy of being mocked.
But @Spencer has ( in the past ) also falsely accused me of Bi-phobia and Bi stereotypes, *for merely describing my own non-straight life* , That I am OK with it. So, not totally a stranger.
I’m not in an environment ( socially ) where same-sex affection is considered shameful, and needs to be hid.
If @Spencer Is , ( implied by his comment ) he should consider before pushing that idea onto others.
Or educating the ignorant straight people in his life instead of gunning for the non-straight ones.
Or re-considering the ways hes been falsely-shamed.
I do think Bi and pan people’s rights need to protected from double prejudice in both communities ( gay and straight ) . But the price for that is renouncing straight or passing privilege. Not being the enforcer of heteronormative conformity, or defending straight privilege . Especially in an anonymous forum where it cost nothing.
@Spencer ( OK becktracking , er backtracking )
If I misunderstood your intent, and especially if you said what you did in jest or irony, I owe you an unambiguous apology.
I’m never going to believe that Becky did anything wrong with that first kiss. Ever.
Certainly, not after this comic:
“Dont you think its romantic…” to fall in love with your childhood friend
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/related/
That foreshadowing was Checkovs first gay-kiss , and great writing on Willis part. Seriously @Willis, sometimes your writing in this comic is a glorious symphony. )
Then there was when Joyce inadvertently normalized same-sex affection to Becky re: Billy
( http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/mistakes/ )
and Walky didnt help with accidental confirmation-bias Ho-yay snark
( http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/somebody/ )
and Joyce herself saying “the most wonderful gift of all” ( in Becky presence ( http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/bestpossiblething/ ) probably gave Becky the courage; that A kiss, as an act of love would be taken that way.
All the evidence we have seen, shows that.
Joyce doubly sounding envious about affection to Walky ( re: Dorothy and Becky http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/jealous/ ) sounds almost explicitly, like an affirmation of same-sex feelings.
In fact re-reading this, its obvious the subtle joke of Beckys you were objecting to ( regarding Joyces dog ) is a call-back to Joyce accusing Becky of “Slobbering” all over Walky.
Would Joyce have even gotten kissed, if she hadnt put that idea in Beckys head?
Now that we know Joyce has a boisterous slobbering dog, that hyperbole of Joyce’s makes it look like Joyce was thinking about a kiss from Becky.
Becky would have known this.
There was no force, and she immediately stopped when she wasnt kissed back. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/away/ .
Treating this kiss as any different ( or problematic ) from all the other first kisses in the story, is a homophobic bias: One that isnt written in the story.
Joyce , herself , gets angry at the very idea Becky hurt her.
( http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/screening-2/ )
And when Joyce tells her it ( “what she did” i.e. Kissing 2 girls ) was not “a mistake” .
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/pit/
Joyce even says “made some mistakes”, ( kising 2 girls ) , then walks it back completely. If Joyce doesnt think so, nobody should.
Joyce does feel weird hearing about this
( http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/forever/ which is normal under the circumstances. )
But she doesnt shame or guilt Becky over it. So it comes across as homophobic or heteronormative, for anyone in the readership to do that.
Buts its now 14 months out-of-comic-time for us. This ought to be fully normalized for the readership. 100% .
This reading ( that becky did something wrong ) is much further denied by the many times that Joyce already mentioned it , without shame.
( “I Kissed a girl” http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/tool/ )
and “It would be nice in theory … any parts from the head up”
( http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/foranybody/ )
and Joyce didnt even mind when Becky told Sarah
( http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/aftermath/ )
Nor do I believe there is ever anything wrong ( or ‘creepy’ ) with the mere discussion , talking, of same-sex affection.
As you previously implied above referencing this comic http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/home-sweet-home/ ) . That’s what I am pushing back on.
This burden is almost never enforced on straight people.
Whether this mere conversation ( about same-sex affection, feelings or past actions ) is by Becky.
Or you, to your friends.
Or by me.
And I think its toxic, for you, to put that out there. **
Talking about same-sex affection is OK — even if it sometimes makes straight people uncomfortable. That’s a definition of straight-privilege.
I know you are not-straight, and I respect that.
But that doesn’t absolve all privilege. Passing Privilege is also real. I know, because I have it.
I dont think your character is somehow inherently wrong, or in some irredeemable way. But i dont think you fully considered how it wasnt supported in the text, or the burden it imposes on other non-straight people.
I do think this is a position you shouldnt defend or enforce toward other non-straight people.
I agree with a lot of the things you write elsewhere. ( You were 100% spot-on regarding defending Carla ). Nor do I mean this in a condescending way ( as I Re-read my comment before sending )
Nor am I going to read into your character that you are choosing to be a Giant X . ( like you may have me. )
From your comments here and elsewhere, I think you may be in a mildly defensive or homo or biphobic environment; one where you feel you need to be too-ideal of example of a Bi person, never confirming a stereotype ( i know whats that like because Ive lived it )
— yet while accepting and enforcing a hierarchy that makes a straight-tagged and hetero-normativist tropes as preferred.
( this comment would grow to be ridiculously long If I had to google all these prior other examples, list them as evidence, too; and dissect them ) .
At this point in my life, I reject both.
You have in the past even called me biphobic and claimed I was making bi-stereotypes, for simply describing **my actual lived non-straight life.** .
So under those circumstances, I might be incorrect ( that you feel very defensive under a heteroconformist social environment and are projecting outward, from that. ) but its a very fair assessment based on our prior conversations and your comment above. I could be wrong, But I think I am being fair and even-handed.
Based off my reactions I received from @Cerbero @Shiro I am going to honestly consider that the way I wrote to you before , was counter-productive, I may have come across like a Giant D-bag, and may owe you an apology for that too.
If I over-reacted or misunderstood what you meant, please consider forgiving me. I was certain i did understand, because in some past comment ( which due to being an imperfect human I could be misremembering ) you explained your problem with Becky/Joyce kiss and made a minor fuss about it.
Last but not least, the last time I cursed* a non-straight person to fall in love,
( which I was most definitely implying above ) the curse took quickly and he was gay-married within the year.
*The cursee was dissing same-sex marriage . Totally deserved )
** I dont need an apology. Nothing like ( a) Love ( curse ) to make us feel foolish . or eat our words. Or kiss our best friends in Beckys case.
Every time you post I feel like I need to mace my computer screen. Like, with an actual spiked club.
Anyway, everything you’ve added today has been complete garbage, including your wholly insincere apology for being such a skeevy prick to me, so I’m just gonna sum it up.
Becky kissed Joyce without her consent. Regardless of reasoning, this is awful to do. Becky realizes this, and later apologized for it. If she’s joking about it here, then that is terrible, so I’m choosing to believe she isn’t.
I’ve accused you of biphobia in the past because you’ve said dumb biphobic shit like “bisexuals are incapable of monogamy” and “Danny can’t know he’s monogamous until he sleeps with Ethan.” So, you know, I’m pretty okay slamming you with that. That’s a label you totally deserve when you say outrageously stupid bullshit.
And then you go again with trying to make judgements of my life, insisting I’m trying to live up to some “ideal bisexual” standard and invoking, of all the gross shit you could, my “passing privilege.” So kindly go fuck yourself.
Dude……..equating getting basic consent with a prenup contract first signed in triplicate in blood” is both inaccurate and kind of uncomfy-making.
@Shiro, Please contextualize my comment.
I was **not** making a general statement about consent. It was only about first kisses ( which almost always use non-verbal cues ) especially as related in-comic.
I was only pushing back on the homophobic idea that Becky violated Joyce with an innocent Kiss. And that it was so somehow shameful and must never ever be obliquely referenced.
In this case someone was offended That Becky making a self-deprecating about Joyce boisterous dog was shameful and bad for Joyce’s mental health.
Thats a homophobic reading of Joyces and beckys first ( and probably only reading ) . Its from the same ubiquitous cultural well that straight people need to be protected from the sight and thought of same-sex affection.
if you feel that way, we will just have to agree to disagree.
@Shiro TLDR Flipping an argument *defending straight privilege*,
into one of triggering a violation of consent, is what I was satirizing.
Straight culture doesnt ask my consent to display or talk of Het affection. YMMV
I measured, this post is at least 50% baseless conjecture, straw-grasping, and demonstrably false claims by volume.
“A trip that was supposed to be JOYCE’S time to rest and recuperate after a back-to-back series of traumas”
Nope. It was not that. It was chosen by her parents because her parents wanted to see her after the awful of last week. Joyce was actually terrified of that and said as much:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/elsewhere/
Quote: “I’ve never been anxious about going home before”. This was never going to be a pleasant trip and was always going to be one where Joyce was going to be hyper-anxious about the ways in which she has changed and the loss of faith she is undergoing and where at least one argument about Becky was going to surface.
I’ve been there where Joyce has been, going off to the obligation family visit that you know will drain you when you’re already bone dry. This was always something to survive, not refresh her. Becky’s invitation was thus 100% altruistic, an offer of a friendly face by the literal only person who could have gone with her to deflect off some of the awful. And honestly?
It’s worked. Carol seems to be targeting Becky as the “corruptor” and thus will be much more likely to leave Joyce alone. It’s hell on Becky, but it succeeds in the main goal of making this visit home not complete shit for Joyce.
Everything else you say stems from similarly inaccurate premises and I would argue reveals a biased way of perceiving the motivations and behavior of a brash lesbian character. That is not to say you are an awful person. But rather to say that internalized and unintentional biases are easy to acquire in our fucked up society.
Especially if say… you’ve been stewing in the incredibly toxic and homophobic chan cultures. Jus’ saying.
Pretty sure that’s what those last two panels were meant to imply…
Yeah Joyce, keep rubbing it in…
You know what totes wouldn’t have been selfish, thoughtless or irresponsible ?
Picking kisses and lustful partying over guilttrip weekend in the Jesus community.
I know, right? So selfless!
I mean, really everyone is so correct that Becky is just being so unbelievably selfish here for not choosing a relaxing weekend in her cozy new room, kissing and snuggling her girlfriend and enjoying herself while her best friend whose been acting off in genuinely concerning (is she going to harm herself) ways and who has been terrified of going home, faced her parents alone, standing up for her decision to support you even though that puts her at odds with them.
That would have been so much more selfless than going to a community that hates her, a home she didn’t fully know would be supportive and definitely a place she was going to face a lot of casual hatred and victim-blame, and be separated from her loved one just to support said friend as she promised.
*roll eyes*
Yeah, I’m with you. The lengths people are going to justify shitting on a very selfless and caring individual and view her as selfish against all evidence is genuinely upsetting and honestly, given my life experiences, not just a little triggering.
Like, fuck, I’ve actually been there. Going through hell but spending all my time trying to help everyone who was just catching the reflected trauma of my hell. Cursing myself the whole time for “hurting” everyone in my life and being told constantly by my family that I was selfish and hurting my family with my “selfish” demands to be myself and try and keep myself alive.
And when you sacrifice and sacrifice and you’re still told you’re selfish, you start to believe it implicitly. That there’s no end you can go to not be a toxic stain on everyone’s life. And you can’t even let yourself die because that’d just be another toxicity on their plate. But you can encourage them all to leave you to protect themselves. Leave you alone to deal with it all. Let everyone you have ever loved go, because you’re existence is hurting them all too much…
It’s a fun time. Heartily recommend.
Everyone’s a little bit of a thoughtless Jerk. If you were never a thoughtless jerk you’d be kinda obnoxious and creepy. Humans are selfish by nature.
I know right? Except humans don’t like to own their selfish jerkhood. Because humans.
Worst animal by far. That’s why I prefer dogs. They wear their hearts on their sleeves.
Cue Raven from QC staring into space thinking about the furriness of dogs.
Ducks are pretty cool too.
Except for the whole harpoon dick.
I mean they certainly wear their hearts on their sleeve. They’re also pretty rapey. Which doesn’t really affect me cuz I’m not a duck.
Shit, you think ducks are bad, don’t get me started on Dolphins.
Two words. Prehensile penis.
Interesting how this discussion got from human nature to penises.
As is human nature.
One coud argue that the route from thoughtless jerks to penises was fairly direct. Not that I would care to make that argument personally.
seeing a lot of folks here who seem to think that either Joyce or Becky or both Joyce and Becky are somehow at fault here. i think it’s highly unlikely that Joyce is doing anything but genuinely trying to comfort Becky – it’s kind of her thing. and while Becky definitely should have stopped and thought before going through with the trip, i don’t think that’s any reason to say Dina deserves better or anything like that. i find it hard to be angry at Becky when it’s obvious that all the “bad” things she does are just mistakes brought on by impulsivity and emotion, and i think if she realizes she’s in the wrong, she’ll apologize.
tl;dr stop being so hard on these two (especially Becky), neither of them are self-aware and they’ve -both- been through a lot.
There is no fault here on either of them. Becky did the right thing when she chose to go with Joyce. Both for herself – to find out what the attitudes of her ‘second family’ are once and for all, if nothing else – and for Joyce, giving her the strength to stand up against horribleness, an anchor to recognize what is and isn’t horrible, and moral support in just someone who agrees with her being there.
Joyce hasn’t done anything wrong here either. She’s being awesome and amazing and supportive, and I am really happy to see that (1) Becky’s support works (centering Joyce on moral values she’s sure of) and (2) Becky’s being supported.
Sometimes, taking care of someone else is the best self-care you can do. That’s why people have pets and pot plants. Joyce and Becky are being anchors in a sea of shittiness for each other, and it’s helping them both.
I’m so happy for them, that-wise
Hey everyone… I know I’ve been doing these periodic begs a lot lately and I’m sorry if they’re starting to get annoying, but could everyone, um, just stop for a second and think before writing a “Becky is so selfish and is an awful girlfriend” type post. Like, I’m not saying don’t write that if that’s what you’re feeling, but just…
I’ve kinda been on the end of a lot of those, especially when I was working super hard to not be homeless and to deal with my family trying to angle me into reparative therapy and disownment and I was being discriminated out of my job and the stress of everything was ripping my longest ever relationship apart. Like all the time, it was kinda my parents favorite line of attack and it really fucked me up.
And I know, those are my own triggers and I own them and I’m not asking for sympathy, but could everyone just take a second to think about maybe if they really want to make the “this incredibly hard-sacrificing girl is so unbelievably selfish” type arguments right now and if maybe there’s a different argument you could make instead. Hell, you can even still hate Becky irrationally, just maybe, could we not continue to have this thread be nothing but “grr, Becky is selfish” posts?
Please?
seconded.
i understand why this would upset you and i dont actually believe this was selfish on beckys behalf
i do however think we’re supposed to think that based on the presentation of the strip which is maybe worth discussing
Popping by to say I appreciate the time and thought you put into unpacking the nuanced actions of these characters, and I’m sorry some posters can’t register complex characterisation. Nonetheless, if writing rebuttals to each unfair judgement takes a toll on you, please go easy on yourself and let some of the others take over for a while. Sympathy and hugs.
Cerberus, Sweetie. I think it’d be best for your own mental health to take a break from the comments. I feel like they’re emotionally exhausting for you and the fact that you have to constantly make posts like this shows me that it’s incredibly personal for you. Everyone is bound to have different opinions, that’s just how humans are. And it’s honestly easier to just try to step back from a situation that stresses you out than to try to get everyone to change or cease voicing their opinions. I’m not saying you can’t still comment on here but I’d say just a leave a comment or two and just step away for a while. It can be very liberating, I’m speaking from personal experience.
Thank you very much for your concern. I fully acknowledge everyone has different opinions, opinions that are no less personal for them, hence their desire to share them as I do mine. And I’m not trying to censor anyone from their statements. Nor am I asking others to be responsible for my triggers or my mental health. As you say, I’m free at any point to walk away when it gets too much and that is indeed part of my self-care protocol.
So yes, I thank you for having that regard and care for me, but this sort of thing is personal for me and affecting largely because it is familiar. Not just to bad events in my past but moments after it and pushing back at the attitudes that entrench these attitudes where institutional -isms and victim-blaming lead to this sort of almost alien negative reactions to victims existing is kind of important.
Not at the expense of my mental health, mind you, but where I can because those attitudes are central to a lot of awful that directly affects me and mine and part of my self-care for these sorts of triggers where I am back in a time of absolute powerlessness is to stand up for my voice and power and speak out against stuff like that.
I do indeed intend not to do so at the expense of others and their right to say what they want, but I will also call out some of the bullshit to the extent it is not a negative imposition to my own mental health.
And yes, tangled_y, I agree very much about the importance of picking one’s battles. But thank you very much as well for your well-intentioned advice as well.
In large part because you can and should take a break if you feel it’s best for you, I want to thank you for keeping up the fight. Reading about your experiences has (I hope) given me a better sense of how to be good to the transfolk that cross my path and any that might find a deeper place in my life.
Yotomoe, since Cerberus gave you such a polite response, I’m gonna give you the flipside. Your “Maybe this is too much for you to handle” attitude on this page is dismissive and rude, and you really need to stop it.
Maybe. This is just one of the many times I’ve seen them make a post like this. It seems to be troubling them a lot. If I’m playing a video game and constantly losing and getting super frustrated and someone tells me I need to step away for a minute, I think it’s a good idea. I’m a sensitive soul and I honestly thing stepping away from stressful situations is underrated. I don’t mean to imply that Cerberus is weak. I’m just saying it does you some good to step away for a bit.
Also? Cerberus is far from the only reader these comments are hurting. Just the bravest and most eloquent.
Cerberus quietly avoiding the comment section doesn’t help them.
It came off like this to me too. Maybe because of the “sweetie”? Whether or not it was intended to sound condescending, consider this a note for future successful communication.
Speaking as a transwoman, I found that it’s best to let go of trying to fight every wacko with a warped view of the world and instead to focus on not letting them affect your own worldview.
Yeah, be like Canada. I mean look who they gotta’ live next to.
After two and half centuries of that I’d have gone crazy by now.
Who says we haven’t?
Speaking as a Canadian, believe me when I say we’re not some leftist utopia. We have our own issues. In spades.
Google “Canadian Residential School Abuse” if you want to see some of it on the racism front. Or “Rehtaeh Parsons” if you want to see sexism/rape culture. Or “Amanda Todd” if likewise. Or Shelby Tracy Tom or Rosa Libuz on transphobia. How about the fact that reparative therapy is illegal nowhere here and was actually state-sponsored first-line treatment for trans kids in Ontario until this year?! Or Fred Henry arguing that protections for LGBTQ kids in schools is “totalitarian” and “anti-Catholic”. What about the fact that there is no explicit standards on accessibility in Canadian federal law? There is no such thing as a Canadians with Disabilities Act, frex. If I go on a plane, there’s nothing wrong with the airline demanding that I get my doctor to fill out a $200 form that certifies I am “fit to fly” if I disclose I have asthma and don’t want to be seated next to a cat. Nothing wrong, legally, with them demanding notice more than three weeks in advance. And nothing wrong, legally with them refusing service to me even if I jump through their hoops and even though my asthma is well controlled and therefore at low risk, on account of the fact that I am asthmatic, because there is no law enforcing the fact that I as an asthmatic should have equal access. Canadians with disabilities have fewer protections than Americans with disabilities did in the early 90s before the ADA was passed. Canadians on disability pensions receive as little as $300 CAD per month to live on in some regions, and in many they have to be re-evaluated by their doctors on a yearly basis to make sure they still need the pension – even if, as in one case that hit the news recently, they are on disability because the trade they were trained in requires they be able-bodied and they lost three of their limbs in Afghanistan. Oh, consider also that if someone wants assistance for vocational training, you have to go off all welfare even if you have no way of paying your bills – and you have to do that before you apply. And your application can be denied. And then you’re up Shit Creek without a paddle because once you voluntarily go off welfare, you can’t get on it again until you re-qualify (which usually means working about three months on full-time hours – so if you’re one of the many young Canadians who has never been able to land a full-time position because companies have figured out that hiring two part-timers to the job of one full-timer is a fuckload cheaper in terms of benefits, better hope you don’t lose your crappy under-paid part time gig, because if you do, you have no way of holding yourself over until you find a new job. What about the fact that a trans rights bill, which would have, among other things, explicitly listed trans people as a “vulnerable population” in need of extra protections against discrimination (yeah, gender identity is not a thing people are protected from discrimination on the basis of here, just FYI) was gutted by our Senate so badly that it was essentially made useless and didn’t pass as a result (because it would have prevented the bill from having effect in prisons, restrooms and crisis centres. Because let’s take the statistically most likely to be sexually victimized population in Canada and require them to be housed and use the bathroom with the statistically most likely to enact the sexual victimization population, and then prevent them from accessing necessary support when they are victimized. Canada: We’re progressive! */sarcasm*)
Like, I know we allowed gay marriage before the States and outlawed slavery earlier and we have socialized medicine. But that does not mean we’re a country that should be uncritically held up as a role model for the American left-wing. Nor does it mean that our past progressiveness is a shield against all the ways in which we are currently regressive assholes.
On a personal note: I feel more nervous on a day-to-day basis about revealing my bisexuality in my city in Canada than I did in the states recently. And I received less shit about my social impairments there than I do here. AND no cops or store people tried to haul me out on the assumption that my speech impediment means I’m high. So. Yeah. Just saying. Canada has some good things about it (socialized medicine being something I quite literally owe my life to on several occasions in several different ways, as one example), but we’re not this perfect role model to be placed on a pedestal.
Have done so (that is, not commented, out of respect and consideration). Several times.
That said, and as others have, if this is so personal and frequently triggering for you, perhaps it would be healthier for you to step back. You need to decide whether the rewards (catharsis, sympathy and support) outweigh the risks (everything else).
Thank you. I will keep that in mind. I think though, my main approach is to just assume the comment thread of any Becky-focused strip is going to be awful. It’s an approach that was of great use for me before and I should heed it so as to not be putting my triggers on others. I’m sorry if it has felt that I’ve been an imposition to you and what you’ve wanted to say in the past.
and I’m sorry if I’ve spoken, well, thoughtlessly.
And I must say I do appreciate the commentary Cerberus. As one who is totally ignorant of what a person who is trans (or hell, gay or lesbian for that matter) must have gone through and likely continues to go through, your comments tend to be…enlightening. While you may need to step back from time to time for your own sake, it is quite obvious that some comments do trigger some intense responses due to your past and that really cannot be helped. Anyway do not stop commenting but do think of yourself too. Getting some of this stuff out may be thereputic at times but may also dredge up awful stuff too that you may not want coming up. I don’t know…maybe I should shut up before I say something thoughtless due to my ignorance. Anyway I do appreciate the comments Cerberus as, like I said, they are enlightening to me.
Oy… now I feel bad for arguing further up without reading through everything first.
Just wanted to drop a note to say how much I appreciate your commentary – even when, as here, I don’t fully agree – and your dedication to sticking up for people (yours and others’, but you’re probably the most prominent voice). That said, you’re not alone, and of course you can and should take a break any time it gets too personal or triggery. Other people can pick up the slack in the meantime, and we’ll still be here when you get back. 🙂
*offers awkward internet hug or handshake or other friendly gesture of choice*
The conflict (from my cozy perch) is between the informed, wise, and generous discussion you bring along every day (seriously, how, it boggles me, like anything in DoA, SFP, or Wilde Life) and the inability for this forum to guarantee a safe space for that. Yay, the internet.
The times that it feels like we’re in Leslie’s class but flooded by a horde of Joes… that shouldn’t be your problem. That should be ours, those of us having fun throwing around banter about the shallower readings (“awww, Dina loves Becky who used to love Joyce who was an item with Ethan who’s into Danny who loves Amazi-Girl therefore DINA TOTES LOVES AMBER”) who are profoundly missing the point that Willis has made by establishing gay teen homelessness in story via both Becky and Leslie, and the context for that of enforcement by the sort who think they’re entitled to use violence. (Did this NOPE NOT SEEING IT go on in the Blaine/Amber storyline?)
Having fun in comments is a big part of what makes them worthwhile (fffft, you should see me over in one of my other favourites), but when it ignores, silences, mocks, or does even worse to the real-world situations Willis is exploring then it needs addressing here within the community, and that shouldn’t fall solely on the shoulders of those who live those situations.
Yours is the most incredible and valuable voice I see in any forum, but you setting boundaries to protect it (because, protecting yourself) is far more important than one of the few voices putting that case.
Because the rest of us should damn well be putting that case, whether you’re speaking on it or not.
“but when it ignores, silences, mocks, or does even worse to the real-world situations Willis is exploring then it needs addressing here within the community, and that shouldn’t fall solely on the shoulders of those who live those situations.”
I do agree with this. I try, every now and then, to do my part. I also hesitate (as in, writing comments that I delete instead of posting), because not living those situations makes it hard for me to not sound “white knight” patronizing in one form or another. But still, that is a poor excuse not to try at all.
you know I’m a big fan of Joyce’s determined badass face.
Feeling guilty about your desires is completely normal for all of us neurotics, but I can imagine it’s particularly pronounced for people who’ve had a fundie upbringing. Yes of course Becky wanted to be there for Joyce during a rough weekend, but no want is purely altruistic. *She* wants to be The One to stand by the girl she still has feelings for, and this is so normal and human, the desire for exclusivity with the beloved even though you consciously know it’s never going to become a Relationship. I think Becky’s just realising that her motivations for going to Joyce’s aren’t entirely 100% selfless (again- totally normal!), and this is making a guilty squirm happen when she thinks of her girlfriend.
Joyce’s dog’s little head peering over the edge of the table is one of the cutest things I’ve seen in a comic for while.
Jesus I didn’t even see that. It’s like it’s staring into my soul.
Which is strange since I lack one.
Let me assure you that your conscious personality does indeed have an indestructable mathematical substrate whether you believe in it or not.
Awwww shit. What if Joyce’s mom tries to poison Becky?
Whaaaa?
Food poisoning man, her stanky ass lasagna’s gonna’ kill Becky!
Lasagna can’t hurt anyone. Garfield wouldn’t lie to me.
I’m afraid I’ve got some bad news Yotomoe. Garfield’s a cat.
He can’t talk.
How do you know?
http://www.thedoghousediaries.com/1699
cats actually have a pretty large range of vocalizations reserved just for humans
you could probably learn to speak cat if you were around them enough
In other news, Joyce’s mom isn’t going to openly disagree with her father, much less intentionally poison anyone with food. Poisoning their mind is another matter entirely.
You know, I have the thought in the back of my head that Carol’s going to bring up Joyce referring to Dorothy as her best friend during the fountain standoff, just to spite Becky.
Damn, I love how we’re imagining all the cold blooded shit that could go down in this comic. It’s horrifying and exciting at he same time.
Happy St Valentin yourself 😐
Awww, her sweetheart is gone, so Dina spends the weekend longing forlornly in her bed, staring into the ceiling while wearing her sweethearts oversized sweater in the hope of catching some lingering smell. Next to her, a shiny new dinosaur book unopened, dinosaur blogs unread and the question on quills unanswered. Dina has found an even bigger mystery than dinosaurs – love.
Dooooooofus 🙂
I know, right.
Like it’s sad, but it’s also so very sweet. I mean, she loves her baby dyke and is just covering herself and surrounding herself in memories even though it’s just a short little weekend absence. She’s got it bad for her Beckers and it’s adorable as all get out.
I’m going to guess that tonight that Becky word balloon is dominating a bit more than the usual litany of dinosaur names.
And agreed, silly NRE doofus.
It’s really odd… I guess it says more about people than the character – This rush to defend and/or throw accusations around on Dina’s behalf. She’s like the fandom’s favourite baby sister and it seems half of it feel the need to go marching around snapping at anyone who makes her feel sad!
Newsflash, guys, Becky didn’t do anything wrong. I do understand why Dina is sad; I get the impression that Becky is Dina’s first really consequential relationship and being without that stimuli must be like someone being forced into sensory deprivation. However, ultimately, this is something that she’s going to have to learn to tolerate or she’s going to become dependent on and possessive of Becky, something that would be very unhealthy.
Speaking of unhealthy: Joyce, stop blaming yourself for things that you didn’t know, couldn’t know and didn’t do because you didn’t know anything about it.
Really? I think it says more about the setup of this comic strip. The juxtaposition of these two scenes are meant to call Joyce’s statements into question, and create sympathy for Dina.
And I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Dina to feel a bit abandoned when her girlfriend takes off early in their relationship to take care of an old crush. And, while Becky wasn’t wrong to come support Joyce, it might have been better handled if she considered Dina might feel insecure and discussed it with her ahead of time. Not that I would expect that from Becky – she’s been consistently shown as someone who doesn’t think her actions through.
I wouldn’t call her a jerk for it though. In the same way I wouldn’t call Joyce a jerk. We’ve all ignorantly made mistakes – extend some of that sympathy to yourself, guys.
Except that Becky has been shown, again and again, discussing every aspect of her relationship with Dina. Especially her spending time with Joyce.
She had Dina with her when we saw her talk about this with Joyce earlier. Dina knew about it then – and didn’t seem surprised, so it probably had come up before during the skip days.
She may not have been 100% sure she was going, probably wanting to see how Hank would react before committing or even before asking them, but it certainly wasn’t a spur of the moment thing. She’d thought it through. Even if it was off camera, I’d be shocked if she hadn’t talked about it with Dina. That’s how we’ve seen their relationship work all along.
Which doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable for Dina to feel insecure and a bit abandoned anyway. That’s part of new relationships and they can make up for it with extra cuddling when she gets back. And some phone calls in between. Or texts or whatever it is kids do these days.
Whatever might have happened off panel aside, my impression is that while they don’t not talk, they haven’t had a discussion in such a way that addresses Dina’s concerns. Which I guess could be Dina’s fault actually – in that she hasn’t brought it up, or didn’t know to bring it up, before Becky took off.
I still think Becky wasn’t wrong to come with Joyce, but now might be the time for extra effort and calls and text messages to help Dina feel appreciated. (Becky probably hasn’t gotten around to getting a cell phone yet, right? She can always borrow Joyce’s phone tho.)
Yup. Hell, the thing to keep in mind for both of them is that they are both each others’ first relationship. They’re learning not only how to date women but how to date people in general with each other and they both don’t really have much of a model for how this sort of thing is supposed to work.
They’ve got a lot of healthiness, but they’re going to make mistakes. It’s really quite unavoidable.
Dammit Willis that timing…
at first i was like- what?
then i was like – Ohhhhh!
That has got to be the saddest Dina I’ve ever seen.
Why do i get that feeling this is silenece before storm?
Dina deserves a lot better than Becky…. At first I was with Becky but seeing how much Dina cares about her and Becky don’t think about her… is hard not picture Becky as a bad guy
Becky once shot a man just to watch him die.
Becky doesn’t separate her trash and recycling.
That MONSTER! Burn the witch!
Now we can’t know for sure, but I heard Becky weighs the same as a duck.
Build a bridge out of her!
And lo! Goodwife Abigail didst say she saw this selfsame Becky walking with the Devil in the woods after dark! And they wast speaking and whispering with each other, and then didst Becky bewitch fair Dina and maketh her to dance Satan’s own dance!
GASP! She did the Robot?!
Becky took the last slice of pizza without asking first.
Becky once took 40 cakes. That’s as many as four tens.
And that’s terrible.
!!! I understood that reference!
That actually became canon a few years back. Lex stole 40 cakes in retaliation for not being allowed to enter a fission powered toaster into a science fair.
It was pretty great.
I like Lex Luthor. He is fully aware of the thing called “Proportional Response”, he has just decided that it has nothing to do with him. It’s an informed decision!
Or as a multi-dimensional character? Occasionally making mistakes does not a villain make.
Alright, here’s my two cents on the whole Becky thing. Becky is Joyce’s best friend, and obviously cares for her. I think that she definitely came on this trip to support Joyce. However, Becky was in love with Joyce for years. That doesn’t simply go away, at least not quickly. Similarly, I think that while Becky and Dina care for each other, love is a complex emotion that takes time to build. Way more than has passed. So I think that Becky attempted to move on without giving herself enough time to lay her feelings for Joyce to rest. This isn’t Becky being a bad person, this is Becky doing her best in a hard situation that she has never experienced before. That doesn’t mean that Dina won’t get hurt because of this. I think this strip is showing Becky begin to realize that she might not be doing right by Dina, and feeling like a jerk regardless if she really is.
I could see that being the case, especially as we’ve seen Becky beating herself for things outside of her control before, so beating herself up for her lingering feelings towards Joyce or Dina’s feelings of insecurity would be very keeping in character for her.
Gah. You HAD to time this strip for Feb 14, didn’t you Willis? >_<
One thing that is bugging me is that there seems to be a certain infantilization of Dina going on right now. I don’t know if it’s just the comments or actually part of the comic itself.
Because everyone is acting like being away from her girlfriend for a couple days is a big honking deal. Becky spends pretty much all her time with Dina, but these two days for going home are so horrible. How should Dina have to deal with that!
I mean, they’ve been together at most a couple weeks. and maybe only one. And going home for the weekend is not a remotely abnormal thing for college students to do, especially freshman year. And you don’t generally bring home your new girlfriend.
Unless Becky’s saying goodbye to Dina was kinda crappy, it really doesn’t seem like as big a deal as people are making it out to be. Or as big a deal as this comic seems to be making it.
And, hah. I should have scrolled up just a bit to see that BenRG basically said the same thing. Though, in my defense, I actually thought of it earlier but it took this long for me to figure out how to put it into words.
It’s ok that you said it again, because not everyone saw BenRG’s comment, apparently.
Did she say goodbye at all? She didn’t even ask her BFF before basically hopping in her father’s car with half a minute’s notice, my money is on her just randomly disappearing with no warning as far as Dinah is concerned.
Which would obviously result in a lot of worry, given the somewhat broader array of realistic options for why Becky would disappear suddenly versus the average teenager.
She said goodbye.
*Dina
Yes, she did. Less than 20 panels ago.
Here you go, since you obviously can neither 1, read back in the story to check, or 2, check the several different comment threads where that accusation has been brought up and shot down in this comments page.
Argh. I will accept many critiques of Becky: She’s impulsive. She’s brash. She has little brain-to-mouth filter, so she often ends up with her foot in her mouth. She’s needlessly mean to Dorothy. All those are perfectly valid.
She is not someone who neglects those she cares about and flakes out on them with no goodbye.
She’s also not someone who crashes her friends’ family visits with no notice, see? She offered to Joyce, long before Joyce left, because she knew it was going to be a tough visit for Joyce and thought Joyce could use the support. It’s not like Joyce said, “No, I don’t want you to come.”
Joyce has repeatedly expressed concern and anxiety about the trip home. Becky repeatedly offered to come as support. Joyce protested, mildly, because of the effect it would have on Becky. Not because she didn’t actually want Becky there. Becky has repeatedly told Joyce she’s willing to take it on, for Joyce’s sake. That’s where it stood when they left. So, no, it’s not like she hopped in Joyce’s dad’s car with half a minutes notice, either. Dina was there when Becky offered to go with Joyce, so it’s not “no warning” to Dina, either. Furthermore, Dina knows that Becky’s going as Joyce’s emotional support, not out of a desire to try again at the unrequited romance. Becky’s seriously in a no-win situation here – if she doesn’t go, she leaves her best friend of over a decade alone and unsupported in a painful situation that has the potential to nuke any kind of productive relationship with her folks if it’s handled poorly. If she does go, she makes her girlfriend lonely for a weekend and triggers Dina’s insecurities about being the rebound girl (which Becky doesn’t know about, to be completely fair to Becky). I still think Becky made the right choice here: In plain terms, Joyce psychologically needs Becky’s support right now. Dina wants Becky’s company. Need > want. It’s the same reason I’ve gone over to chronically ill friends’ places to cook/clean for them when they have flareups rather than going out with my partner as I’d planned that day. Learning how to balance relationships is a necessary part of adulting, and Becky’s handling it pretty well. Is she perfect? No. Nobody is. Particularly, she’s downright nasty to some of Joyce’s friends (Dorothy in particular) because of her jealousy. But her decision to support Joyce this weekend is a lot more considerate (and less enjoyable) than deciding to spend the weekend with her Dino Gal would’ve been.
Becky is many things. “Inconsiderate flake” is not one of them.
Exactly!
Speaking of Joyce and Becky, this strip make it obvious (just as it was obvious in the sushi resturant) that Becky and Joyce have developed a “no it’s MY fault” dynamic where both feel guilty for things they have or have not done to the other one.
Both of them are really afraid of this confrontation with parents (who, just to remind, is the closest thing BECKY has to parents too), but neither of them want the other to have to face it alone. So both try to shield the other one, a bit misguided perhaps, but because they care so much for each other.
All the this!
This is a normal part of healthy relationships. And heck, Dina feeling a bit bummed about it because she’s massively in NRE and wants to spend all her time with Becky is also a normal part of early relationships. It’s not a relationship in crisis or Becky being an awful person. It’s an awful situation that needed to be handled before everyone goes back to cute cuddle mode and Becky has been shown to be damn respectful of the twin needs of her best friend and girlfriend before.
Also to trlkly at top- I got that impression too. Like, I wonder if there’s that piece of infantalization that Dina talked about at the party where people presume she can’t handle aspects of an adult relationship due to her neurodivergence. And so must be guarded from things like “ick, I can’t see my gf this weekend because she’s providing support for a crisis” even though these are very unlikely to be deal-breakers for the relationship.
Yeah, I get that read, too.
Infantilization of people with disabilities is A Thing, and people with developmental disabilities are especially likely to get it. It’s hard to articulate how it happens, but a lot of it is dressed up as for the person’s protection/in their best interest, that sort of thing.
Plus, the hell of it is, a lot of people genuinely think they’re helping the person they’re infantilizing.
A perfect Valentines day strip.
To be completely honest, I don’t expect Becky and Dina’s relationship to last. And it has absolutely nothing to do with what we’re seeing here. As far as we can tell, this is the first serious relationship for both of them. I’ve heard stories of people who meet in high school or college and stay together for the rest of their lives (or at least a couple of decades), but I’ve never seen them and my opinion is going to be affected by that.
From what I’ve seen and experienced of ‘first relationships’, they’re the ones where both parties make all the newbie mistakes. And even if Becky was being a selfish jerk in this, for the sake of the argument, okay? So? Dina’s hurt. It sucks, but can also be a valuable lesson for both of them if they stick together or to take with them into their next relationship.
Nothing in this page comes even close to making Becky a bad person. And that is if, yes even if, the implication is that she’s being a selfish jerk in regards to Dina. Newbie mistakes. I remember mine. Tell me none of you had bad ones of your own.
I’m still with the first person I’ve ever dated. That’s not to say we didn’t make a lot of mistakes early on. Some of them were small and we got over it, and some of them were huge. So yeah. They might not last. They might last. But Becky isn’t a bad person or a selfish jerk. She’s a teenager.
I said something similar a little while back. Realistically, the biggest obstacle to Becky & Dina lasting is that it’s a first relationship for both of them and most of those fail.
Then I thought about it a bit more and realized this is fiction.
So fuck that.
God answers lesbian prayers. Becky and Dina get their happy ending.
I don’t think Becky even knows that Sarah’s ruined Dina’s sense of security in their relationship, though.
I don’t think that’s really Sarah’s fault. When she told Dina what she was worried about, Dina said she knew. I think Sarah just gave voice to worries Dina was already feeling.
Am I the only one who doesn’t think it would be horrible if Dina and Becky broke up? I think they would stay friends after…
to me their relationship is like Dorothy’s and Walky’s got started: “this is a fun thing that we both enjoy, it could be over next week but why worry about that”
By Dina’s own admission she’s exploring her sexuality, she kissed Becky on an impulse when everyone was making comments of her being child-like. If their relationship ended, yeah it would be disappointing but no the worst thing to happen to either by far
it would NOT be horrible, good job me, missing the one word that makes the sentence coherent…
I’m with you, Derek. Just wanted to say that.
So are y’all this absolutist and unforgiving toward the people around you in real life?
Oops. Oh, and HAPPY VALENTINES DAY! (yes, I know it’s still fall there)
I just am dying with both Dina and Becky here. Dina, for obvious reasons, probably feels like she’s second fiddle, but also might be wrestling with whether she’s to blame. “Is she even in love with me, or did she just pity me? Do I even love her? I didn’t even know what romantic love was like a few weeks ago…” Then Becky, I know that guilt. Probably doubting whether she’s more good friend or more bad girlfriend. Doubting her own intentions and emotions. (Hopefully[against hope]not) feeling like Carol is right. Wondering if she just was lonely and let her and Dina “happen” without thinking about the consequences?
*Probably too much projection on my part, though.
Not sure where people are getting selfish from here. Or even where the comic is. If Becky is being honest about why she came along, she’s being pretty selfless, and, if this few days apart is a stumbling block for them, their relationship is so flimsy that it’ll break like particle board.
It’s not cruel to spend a few days apart from your SO. It’s unhealthy to be wrapping yourself in knots if you’re apart from them briefly. It might suck a bit, but this isn’t a selfish deed and… Well, sometimes life sucks. Get a helmet. Or at least a dinosaur hat.
Also, Carol’s a bongo but, hey, at least I don’t get slapped with a fish, so there’s that. Lesson learned: Always give yourself a reason to be positive.
Huh. So that’s where the term bongo comes from. Tremendous.
…at least I don’t get slapped with a fish…
Best two out of three?
I think it’s probably selfish in that (as far as we have any reason to know) Becky didn’t consult, or even tell her girlfriend that she was going to leave for the weekend. She kind of just left her hanging there.
that really would be a pretty selfish thing to do, if it was true
Becky did say goodbye to Dina:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/humility/
I think it is rather telling portrait of Becky that after being told in yesterday’s strip that she was NOT WELCOME here – in the closest thing she had left to a home, in the most toxic, passive aggressive way possible by the closest thing she had left to a mother – her comment is “Aw Jeez”.
I want to go into the comic and give Dina a hug the size of a brachiosaurus.
Wouldn’t a hug the size of a Dina have more of an effect?
Diiiiiina! *Makes ugly sobbing noises.*
Damn you Willis!
How could you separate our favourite couple of all times on Valentine’s Day!
I think Mr. Willis has done a fine job of character development with Becky, and it’s epitomized by her expressions in panels #1, #3, and #5, exhibiting remorse and loyalty. The impulsive/thoughtful balance seems to be shifting.
Mike takes this opportunity to seduce Dina, I feel evil coming
I sense something ugly coming.
Is it the next page of comments?
Shouldn’t Becky be able to walk to her family home and get some of her clothes and possessions she left there? If she got her stuff from her d9rm, she should have her house key. If not she is Becky. It’s her house and if she needs something from it she will find a way in.