I don’t mean to be over sensitive but … That is not funny at all. Considering what we know about how unjust our justice system can be, I hope to fuck YIU are just an angry 15 year old.
It’s not funny that a correctional officer would have to arrest you for assaulting a prisoner? Or that they’d high five you for assaulting a prisoner who was such a colossal asshole?
Because the first one seems like common sense, and the second one seems like an indication that they’re just humans too.
I can only assume, because Willis, that they are going to arrive home to discovery Joyce’s mom running a bakesale/candlelight vigil for Toedad’s legal defense fund.
After seeing how conservatively Joyce was raised, it’s easy to forget that her dad went to the same school and probably had the same breakaway experience in his own day. So, in all likelihood he’s just mastered the art of “do as I say and not as I do” in raising Joyce.
people generally get more conservative once they get older and have kids i also have a feeling its more joyce’s mom and hank just kinds of goes “yes honey” as long as its not too far left of center
This happens a LOT in these circles with a facade of patriarchy, but mom is really running the show. I was home schooled and about as lost as Joyce is in this comic when I hit the real world.
> people generally get more conservative once they get older and have kids
I’m guessing you haven’t gotten older yet, so please speak for yourself.
I’m pushing sixty, I have six grandchildren. I don’t find myself getting more conservative. To my tastes, Bernie Sanders is more conservative than I am.
That’s in the case of conservative people. I find left leaning people end up more left as they age as well. It’s more whatever your leaning are, you end up digging in your heels, covering your ears and yelling lalalalala whenever your views are challenged.
Ex: My aunt is a firm believer that microwave ovens are horrible for your health, and won’t listen when I try to explain how EMR works.
Personally I’m one of those people who drifted has left, and fairly hard left by modern standards, as I got older. When I was younger I considered myself centrist To tell the truth I think it’s actually as much politics in general drifting right as me drifting left.
She might out herself. I mean, if she does want to out herself eventually, she probably wants to confess to the whole family when they’re all together. And Hank’s reaction to Becky’s sexuality might give Jocelyn the encouragement to go ahead with it.
And then we’ll see if DoA fans still love Hank.
I find that “outed” tends to have more negative connotations, like have one’s sexuality and/or gender identity forcibly exposed. “Coming out” struck me as a more passive phrase.
“Coming out” is voluntary, “being outed” is usually not. Hence, yes, it’s got a more negative connotation revolving around forced exposition. Because that’s usually what it is.
No no, it was very important. Joyce is realizing she’s not a bad person after all for the changes she’s been going through. This is exactly what she’s been needing.
I think that comment has more to do with how much her behavior’s changed (at least by their standards) without crossing a line, even if it’s just one parent being okay with this.
Yeah, I’m going with all 3 comments here. Surprised Joycedad Hank wasn’t surprised by the “Asshole” comment, probably IS important Joyce realizes she now old enough to swear “properly” (at the right times & in the right context), And that Joyce’s behaviour has changed, but it hasn’t crossed the “OMG yous a bad child” line…
…And no, I didn’t just steal all that info off Daniel the Human…
And here we were thinking Joyce going home would be all angsty. Well it’s not! Sure, when she GETS home it will probably get angsty, but the ride home is awesome
I’m assuming that since Becky’s family didn’t really fall apart at all during that whole time, the mom was very much a “good submissive wife” who didn’t speak much around others and was just sort of there.
Ross seems to be the kind of person who thinks there’s a “woman’s realm” and a “men’s realm,” and that women should be seen but not heard when men are talking.
Ever watch Monty Python’s Meaning Of Life? The Catholic “Every Sperm Is Sacred” scene? If I remember right, the “Mother” dropped yet another kid out while doing the dishes…
…Can’t seem to find the scene on Youtube without linking to the whole movie, but I guess that means you got homework… 😛
Eh, it’s what you say when they’re too milquetoast to really say anything about. I’d guess the poor woman wasn’t very confident in herself and let toedad be as bossy as he could stand to be.
Yeah, I kinda read ‘nice enough’ as ‘personable when the asshole wasn’t stopping her from being so, and would have gotten along with if she were married to someone else’.
“bless her soul” is “she’s dead and I’m being respectful” and “nice enough” is “she didn’t really have enough personality traits for me to comment on.”
Nice enough sounds like she was easier to get along with than Ross, but if their daughters weren’t best friends they probably wouldn’t have known them at all really.
My southern/Kentucky in-laws have assured me that such language all but equates to “Jesus, what a dinkwad.” Whether it’s a “She’s a horrible person” dinkwad or “Dumb as a sack of rocks, and sticking with that asshole of a husband” dinkwad is unclear. I’m not a native Southern Insult speaker.
“Bless his/her soul” seems to be pretty contextual, ranging from ‘heaven preserve the poor thing’ to ‘may they choke on a bag of leprous dicks in hell forevermore’ and everything in between.
My impression was that the “nice enough” was the damning part and the “bless her soul” was because she’s passed away, like how some people whenever they mention someone who’s died add in something like that, like “my grandma, may she rest in peace.”
Although I’m not from the part of the country where “bless her soul” is commonly used, so I don’t know if it’s used sincerely in that context, but that was my impression.
I think that’s ‘bless her heart,’ but idk. Bless her soul, when referring to a dead person, seems more like ‘may she rest in peace’ or whatever. But I’m not southern.
From a Texan, you’d be right. Bless her heart is an insult, typically said very condescendingly when passive aggressively insulting another person’s intelligence or morals. Bless her soul, on the other hand, under these circumstances, would probably be more a statement of pity. Along the lines of ‘Poor thing,’ more or less, particularly with her being dead. “Having to put up with that man,” perhaps, with an added “may she rest in peace.”
As a Southerner myself, that really depends on tone and context. Here it seems more like she didn’t make a strong enough impression beyond being inoffensive. “Nice enough.”
The “bless her soul” is probably literal and more refers to the fact that’s she’s dead than any polite dismissal.
I think… context. Carol used the same phrasing to whitewash Ross. The situation here, with a Hank who is repeatedly showing concern for others (and validating the hell out of Joyce, which is so damn unexpected and awesome), reads to me like the exact opposite—he’s using it to express his honest attitude towards someone who’s died.
(bonus points: how much of that “nice enough” is shorthand for “nice enough considering she’d made a life with Toedad”?)
I dunno. I like punching my friends if they don’t mind – not everyone’s up for sparring – but I can think of more than a few people whose hygeine is so bad I’d rather not touch them even with reinforced leather boots.
Wouldn’t be so sure about that. Ana seems to have super speed, since their posts always arrive first. Never underestimate the power of a good Initiative roll.
Whereas I haven’t been in a fight since the 6th grade. Won that one, but I daresay my skills have gotten rusty in the intervening 2 decades.
Is it weird that I sometimes think about ways I would take out various Walkyverse characters?
Robin: Offer her a candy bar, injected with some sort of sleeping agent. Even if she knows you’re fighting, she’ll still probably eat it.
Mike: Booze and a slingshot
Joyce: Wait until she pulls out the plasma gun, and then rush her…its a gamble but I doubt she would be wiling to fire it. You can then use the weight of the gun to knock her over
It could either mean that he didn’t like her, or didn’t get enough of a sense to tell how she was. Seeing as Ross hit Becky, I wouldn’t be surprised if he hit Bonnie and she walked around barely having a personality. That also jives with the idea that “bless her soul,” could’ve referred to her having to suffer not only her affliction, but her marriage as well.
It’s kinda hard to say, but the lack of major reaction from Becky about the gun or the slap makes me feel like maybe she’s used to him being a violent fuck. Becky’s cry of “Why would you bring that” along with her not repsonding to Joyce’s surprise at Ross having a gun and Becky’s following words made it seem like she was way more surprised that he took his behaviour to the school, rather than that his behaviour was really all that surprising on its own.
Although since we haven’t gotten any real follow up on those specifics it’s hard to tell what’s up.
Heh, total opposite from me. I remember my parents tried to teach me & and my brother not to use swear words, but my dad would always inadvertently do things like say “shit” when he messed up in front of us (and I’d scold him). So yeah, swear words are basically just normal vocabulary to me. ^^”
The time in high school that I swore at a teacher (from extreme exasperation and provocation), they called in my father but he couldn’t/didn’t say anything because, where did I pick that up, after all. Whatever his faults, I can’t recall him being hypocritical.
The downside of realizing your parents are human is learning all of their flaws. The upside is you finally get to have a conversation with them on a (relatively) equal level, and relate to them as something besides authority figures.
Of course, that’s not helpful if your parents are like Toedad, but in that case, you can at least tell them to screw themselves with a rusty iron pole.
Or give him a double-bird as you tell him you’re throwing all his plans for you out the window and are going to be the opposite of everything he wants. 😀
OMG her reaction to him agreeing he’s an asshole (and also notably (IMO) not reprimanding her for the use of that word) is soooo cuuute 😀
I really hope his daughter’s actions will inspire him to go up against his wife when she inevitably says awful things about Becky.
I know, it’s such a sweet moment, but it’s so clear that this home visit is going to start going massively wrong some time and now it’s just holding on to see how.
When they get back to the house, Hank will have to be careful of what he says again to keep Carol happy. He probably doesn’t get many opportunities to ‘let his hair down’ like this; even fewer around the kids.
I’m just going to enjoy these moments while we have them and not wait for the shoe to drop… Yay! for Hank. May he be a better man, even if it does all go to hell
I’m going to guess it’ll depend on whether or not she comes crashing through the door the way Becky did into the lobby, except instead of yelling I’M A LESBIAN, yelling I’M A GIRL. ^^;
Jocelyn seems fairly reserved in general, so I’m thinking that’s unlikely. I feel like she’s going to talk to Joyce first, once she finds out Joyce is okay with Becky and everything that went down with Toedad, and either Joyce’s parents walk in on the conversation or Joyce convinces her to talk to their parents about it.
Maybe she’s already out to her brothers, and they’re all waiting for the right opportunity to tell Joyce? I can see a “Mom’s kinda nuts, Jackie.” over the March 21st preview panel.
He took the “smile and nod” approach to Becky being gay. I’m hopeful that even if he can’t immediately wrap his mind around the idea of Jocelyn, he’ll do his best to be supportive until he can.
I don’t think he’s quite grasped that “gay” doesn’t mean “hedonistic sex monster”, but he’s trying put aside his discomfort for Becky’s sake. If he found out that Jocelyne was in the same boat as Becky, as someone he loves from a group he’s probably heard tons of horrible, dehumanizing shit about, then I can see him trying to extend that same effort as well.
Ah, I see he’s reclassified Toedad as not actually a man of God because he disagrees with Toedad’s actions. Of course. No true Scotsman Christian would act as Toedad did.
I’m probably being over-harsh to Joyce’s dad, who is doing well to support her and to be honest in his previous misgivings, but that line grates.
To be fair, the alternative is to implicitly accept that being a man of God might lead one to do what Toedad did, which is probably something that he’s not ready to do, yet. So he files Ross away in the “goat” side of the sheep-goat metaphor, and won’t reconsider it until/unless he’s forced to.
Which, considering the whole thing with Joyce’s mother, might happen sooner than he thinks.
I think it’s more that he believes being a belligerent ass like Toedad was means he’s not being a good Christian. It’s important to remember that not all Christians are terrible jerks who approve of picketing gay funerals or controlling their kids’ lives at gunpoint (or at all). Toedad is an example of the worst kind of Christian and clearly Hank’s comment shows he doesn’t feel that Toedad’s been true to his faith via his hurtful actions.
What grates on me is the misuse of the No True Scotsman fallacy. It requires there to be a definition that is established at first, a claim to be made, a counterexample given, and then the definition changed.
Ross was not in any way following Christ’s teachings in the way he acted. There is nothing wrong with Hank saying he’s not a man of God. He previously thought he did follow Christ’s teachings, so he previously thought he was a man of God.
It’s like someone saying “No good person murders people.” “Well, James murders people.” “Well, then, James isn’t a good person.” That’s not a fallacy, but perfectly sound logic.
…ahahaha. He was absolutely following a number of Christ’s teachings. It’s unfortunate many of them were shitty. However, ‘man of god’ is a bit less clearly cut than ‘christian’. To deny he was a Christian would be obviously counterfactual – undeniably an example of the No True Scotsmen fallacy. ‘Man of God’, depending on its definition, may actually, factually mean ‘does what I think is god’s will’, and that’s a definition you’re more in line to say he doesn’t fit for any of a number of subjective (Or even petty) reasons.
The traditional ‘no true scotsmen’ examples don’t involve the hypothetical scotsman agreeing to a definition of ‘Scotsmen’ first either. But ‘scotsmen’ is generally not a subjective term that the hypothetical scotsman gets to define.
…I’m trying to think of one of Christ’s “shitty teachings” that Toedad was “absolutely following”. I’m sure you’ll have a few context-free verses lined up, just as he did. However, I’m going to stick with Matthew 7:21 – and the surrounding chapter – as the obvious refutation.
I also like how you think it’s “obviously counterfactual” to claim Ross is no Christian, as though there were some objective measure that conveniently always includes assholes who claim the term. (Well, in truth, there kind of is an available metric: the term literally means “little Christ”, as in one who imitates Jesus, and you’ll find Jesus’ teachings to be chock full of basically “See that guy, Ross McIntyre? Don’t be like that guy.”)
Once you start adopting definitions that rule out huge swaths of people calling themselves Christian throughout history, even if you have Biblical arguments for it, I pretty much lose interest.
You throw out some quotes that disqualify him, he throws out some quotes that disqualify you, you dispute those as context-free, he disputes yours, I don’t care.
With damn few exceptions, Christians are those who call themselves Christian or claim to follow Christ. Otherwise you wind up in exactly the “No True Scotsman” situation where Christians are all good people because that’s how you define Christian. (However you define “good” as well.)
Which is kinda the point of how people over-apply the No True Scotsman argument. Following a faith is not like nationality or ethnicity; it’s subjective, and just because someone claims a label doesn’t mean others will (or must) accept their claim. (This applies especially in cases, such as Christianity, where the religion’s own teachings explicitly state that not all who claim to follow Christ actually do.)
As a slight aside, when the definition of TERFs came up a few days ago, one of the sites mentioned that the term TERF arose in response to “the appropriation of the radical feminist identity by what is essentially a hate group”. I filed that away for future reference, because that sentence pretty much perfectly encapsulates how I feel about the Religious Right vis-à-vis Christianity as a whole.
You are of course free to define Christian for your own use as narrowly as you like. Others are free to use their own definitions to exclude you. They will have their own doctrines and their own interpretations of scripture, their own scholars and apologetics.
And thus we have hundreds or thousands of sects of Christians, many claiming to be the one true way and leading in the past to religious wars.
While it may be a fine religious definition, it’s pretty much useless otherwise. Historically, we can talk about the spread of Christianity, for example, but it may have nothing to do with what you’re calling Christian. It’s one thing if it’s the occasional small hate group appropriating the name, but it’s not. If anything, the groups you (and I) might approve of may be the minority changing from the norm. Certainly in the case of homosexuality, it wasn’t that long ago it would have been condemned by nearly all denominations. Though many would have been more like Carol or earlier Hank & Joyce than willing to risk murder over it like Ross.
Does that mean there were few to no Christians before a few decades ago?
Given that we were talking about (mis)applying the NTS fallacy to people claiming Christianity, I’m not really following your argument? You seem to be giving a whole bunch of reasons why it doesn’t work, since everyone involved might have a different idea of what “Christian” means.
For my part, I agree wholeheartedly with trlkly’s post above. Beyond that, we seem to be going in circles (and I’m kinda regretting responding in irritation to Rutee).
Really, dude? Upholding the old laws, etc etc. Cast that, with the bit about how you must give up your family or you aren’t a true follower of christ, and you’ve got a pretty solid basis for him. The old laws were rubbish, and did indeed include ironclad strictures against Christianity. Like, if you want to emphasize different, less shitty parts of Jesus’ various messages, great. But trying to rule a bunch of Christian not-Christian is exactly No True Scotsman territory. There is one definition of a Christian – claims to follow the teachings of Christ. You don’t get to rule which ones subjectively count. By doing so, you’re doing the EXACT THING No True Scotsman is for. Just like the hypothetical scottish nationalist doesn’t get to redefine ‘scotsman’ to suit his subjective definition, so too, do you not get to.
It’s not ‘overapplying the fallacy’. It’s pointing out you don’t get ownership of the definition. Because you fucking don’t. And when you’re using your assumed ownership of the definition to remove people you find uncomfortable from your in-group, well, you’re fuckin’ playing Scotsman with us.
Er, ironclad strictures against homosexuality. Sure, they weren’t that important, and pretty much all Christians who claim to uphold them are hypocrites, but they are THERE.
Whoa, she drops the cursing bomb and he doesn’t even flinch. That’s an incredibly important moment for Joyce, especially as the cursing thing was the thing she was scared she couldn’t hide.
Oh please. To take down her mom you just need a… I was going to say a cross or some holly water but that’d be just a bit too weird in this situation so I’m gonna say a big enough gun.
Yeah, I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop. Haha. However, I think it is good for Joyce to feel like she is not alone. That an authority figure in her life is affirming her actions. These past several weeks have been fairly earth shattering for her, I don’t imagine she can handle much more. At least she knows that her dad is on her side, and can swear and not feel like less of a Christian.
Considering he didn’t freak out at her saying ‘asshole’ and said ‘damn’ right after, Mr. Brown doesn’t seem too strict about swearing. I’m going to take this as another clue that he’s the mellow one compared to Joyce’s mom.
Hank was the one who dragged Joyce away from Evil Corrupting Atheist Dorothy, tried to get Joyce to stay away from her, and compared her to Hitler.
IDK, he’s getting better, he’s very clearly trying to adapt and learn, but I’d say that’s something he’s trying to do now, rather than always having been that way.
To be fair to Hank, he might or might not have had good experiences with atheists. I was raised atheist, and I don’t care for the actions of a lot of them toward religious people (including how I was as a teenager, and how my parents and brothers still are).
Is Hank excused for his concern if all of the atheists he encountered told him he was stupid and needs to stop believing in the “sky fairy” or “Santa Claus”? [Many of the atheists I went to university with] How about if one or more of them say that anyone who believes in God is crazy and should be in a mental institution, right alongside schizophrenics and psychopaths? [My brother] How about if they said religious people shouldn’t be allowed to vote? [My parents]
There is a lot of bullshit and hate that comes out of atheist mouths. No, Hank shouldn’t have judged Dorothy without finding out what she was like; he prayed about it, and obviously God let Joyce make the right decisions, just like Hank prayed for and like he later acknowledged Joyce was able to do. (As an aside for that, Hank doesn’t know it yet, but Joyce is not “yolked” to “unbelievers” either, again as he asked. Joyce did a perfectly fine job standing up to Dorothy and telling her not to keep trying to change her.)
It was Joyce’s MOM who tried to separate Joyce and Dorothy from even walking near each other. And actually, now that I’ve gone back to look at both scenes with Joyce’s parents to try to find the exact quotes, I see that I was remembering correctly that Joyce’s mom was the one who started the hate train every time. She made the angry “we’re leaving” face and Hank pulled Joyce away from them. She made the reference to Nazis, and Hank followed suit with the Hitler statement. She has, actually, an almost perpetually angry/hateful face on when things aren’t going her way, and Hank varies between concern, frustration, worry, and resignation.
I feel like Hank is a good dude deep down, he just is uneducated in contemporary social issues. My atheist parents have said way more hateful things about LGBTQIA people – and I’m bi – than Hank has yet. Granted, Jocelyn isn’t out to her family, but I feel like he would at least struggle to understand a bit, whereas my parents don’t. (I won’t even repeat what they say about transgender individuals for the sake of example.)
And for that matter, my parents have been just as much or more hateful toward people of faith than he has been toward atheists.
A lack of education goes a long way toward making otherwise good people do and say asshole things. People fuck up; it’s what we do. The difference between good people and shitty people is that good people listen, consider, and sometimes change, and shitty people lock themselves into one mindset and never change it, no matter what in the way of evidence or experience is presented to them.
Don’t know what Hank does for a living, but if he works with others regularly, he’s bound to have encountered at least a few who cussed. He also went to school in the same University as Joyce, so I figure he’ more open minded and/or accepting of others.
Regardless, yeah, it’s nice to know that not all parents in the DoA universe are horrible, and that there are some decent ones out there. Nice to know Joyce’s family isn’t nearly as screwed up as others we have seen.
You’re probably right, as are Dina’s, though we haven’t seen that much of them yet. Though I’d say the telephone conversation between Dina and her folks over Becky earlier does place them high on the good list.
I can’t even put this into proper words.
Hank may very well make it into my Top 10 DoA characters, and definitely into my Top 5 Fictional Dads.
But knowing Willis, Carol is going to make the comments section seriously SERIOUSLY pissy for a long time. I suspect plenty of commets-disabling in the future because of something fucked up and bigoted that Carol says.
I think Hank is going to stay a sympathetic character, but prove to be far from perfect. I imagine he’s always tried to be a good dad, even when he was comparing Dorothy to Hitler. He’s not going to stop trying. We’ll see how that goes.
Eh, the bongo filter is still on. I think Mary’s strips were locked because she became a particularly hateful, troll-inspiring variety of bongo.
I would like to think Carol will restrain herself to angry faces and mild hate speech, just like she did at the campus; then again, in the safety of her own home, she might go full Mary!bongo and have to have her comment threads locked. ^^;
You have no idea how I am to hear Joyce and her dad cuss in the same vicinity of each other.
It really says a lot about Joyce and how really Christian her family is. You can still throw out some cusses and still live the values intended. Joyce’s dad? Dude seems like he does. Becky’s dad? Yeah no.
i’ve been relating to joyce SO MUCH in this arc. though the “worried to accidentally say something ‘wrong'” was in front of grandparents, not parents. the day i cursed and my grandmother cursed in return was one of the most relieving moments of my life and made me realize she saw me as an adult.
What if Hank’s passive aggressive prayer circle was more an effort to keep the peace, than a genuine effort to change Joyce’s mind? It’s been awhile since I read those pages, but… The evidence we have points to Hank being the more mellow, less dogmatic believer compared to Carol.
I mean, I’m assuming they’ve been married at least 25 years. Hank has probably found himself in the role of peacemaker more than once, so he’s learned when to jump in and “take things to God” rather than letting Carol harangue their children into agreement/silence. Like, once Joyce quoted scripture to support herself, he understood the situation was a lot more complicated and there was no way it was going to be solved right there. Even though Carol would try and Joyce wouldn’t back down.
Granted, that could be wishful thinking on my part.
The way I view the idea of Hank “always” being the good parent is that it cheapens his development now.
Like, both Brown parents were being horrible dickheads during the Freshman Family Weekend storyline, but it’s that Hank looked within and realized that, if his adorable baby girl could argue at him to be friends with an atheist, using the bible at that, then maybe he needs to reevaluate stuff when said stuff almost got his daughter’s head blown off.
If he’s always been Cool Dad, which he wasn’t because he actually compared Dorothy to Hitler, than I feel it means less to see him start crawling out of the hole he’s dug. It means he got a head start in the race to be a not shit parent.
How about: he wasn’t “Cool Dad” since, as you say, he was NOT cool during FFW, but he was all along predisposed to think about something which Joyce, for one, might say to him with such passion and commitment? So he had the latent potential to change/develop because he already was open to influence from Joyce — AND I hope Jocelyne. Many folks have expressed concern that she will be his Bridge too Far, but I very much hope that he’ll be ready to follow his other daughter over that one.
Or maybe he’s always been “Cool Dad” within the boundaries they understand, ones that exclude, for example, atheists and lesbians. Part of being the cool dad being a willingness to grow, and challenge those boundaries. Good for him.
I’m going to agree with you on that. At the same time, he might still have been the more easy going or permissive parent before having that realization courtesy of Joyce. But, just because he’s the cool parent doesn’t mean he’s always been the good parent. Oh wait. Carol’s the other parent. Scratch that last sentence.
(Looks at the Hitler comparison strip again). Yeah, I’m going to disagree that he was just trying to keep the peace there. (I mean just look at what they’re saying when they are “taking it to God”)
“Heavenly Father, we come before you today with our daughter in CRISIS.” [Joyce is encountering influences her parents disapprove of and defending those influences.] “We’ve said our piece, but now it’s up to YOU.” [He’s not going to continue pressuring her, he’s turning it over to God.]
“Give her the strength to make the RIGHT decisions, even when they are difficult.” [She has, repeatedly, since then.] “Let us not be yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship has light with darkness?” [Joyce is not yoked to anyone, including Dorothy. She just got done standing up to Dorothy during Gender Studies. Hank is not yoked to the same mindset Toedad was, whom he considers not Christian. Joyce has done a good job managing the darkness in her life and finding light, and Hank shows every promise of doing the same.]
Neat. Though in Hank and Carol’s view of that, Joyce is definitely yoked by Dorothy. And the right decisions is their decision. They basically dragged her away as soon as the Keeners mentioned she was raised arelgiously. That doesn’t show respect for Joyce’s decisions
Though I’m curious as to what your “It’s not passive aggressively shaming Joyce for arguing” interpretation of the alt text is.
It was certainly passive-aggressive; Hank (and probably Carol) had a very good idea in their heads of what was “right” when he was doing that, and he knew that Joyce knew what their interpretation was. However, they’re also people of faith; when they run into an emotional roadblock, they turn to their faith to help sort it out, because they’re not equipped with the social and emotional education necessary to otherwise piece it out. For them, prayer is a way of seeking a “second opinion” without feeling like they’re turning to another human, who may or may not be working in their best interest.
That’s the tricky thing about prayer (and the lesser-known variant, cursing), however – it relies entirely on the target to fulfill it. People don’t understand what good “sending our prayers” messages do for someone in the hospital from a terrible accident, mourning the death of a loved one, or enduring a stressful situation like leaving behind addiction. “If God could do anything about it, why did the bad thing happen in the first place?” Yadda, yadda, yadda. Facebook is filled with it, let alone anywhere else prayer chains go around.
What those prayers do is uplift the spirits of a person of faith; they know that they are not enduring their struggle alone. They know that not only are other people pulling for them, but other people are also taking time and energy to appeal to their deity on their behalf. For people who are not of faith and also not dickwads, they know that those prayers mean those people don’t have money, medical expertise, travel capacity, etc to help with but are still offering emotional support; they know that, in at least a small manner, their life means something to that other person and that can bolster the will to keep pushing through. As much as we keep trying to hold up isolationism and “I Can Do Everything All By Myself With No Help From Anyone” as the gold standard of success, we are still inherently social creatures and we still rely on the presence and support of others for our emotional and mental health – and, in the case of doctors and such, for our physical health as well. The isolationism comes from the fear that others are dragging or want to drag us down; faith communities attempt (with varying degrees of success) to lift their members up.
Hank’s passive-aggressive prayer is his attempt to lift Joyce up above what he thinks are influences that will drag her down the road to ruin. However, because Joyce is A) a good kid and B) understands her religious education even better than her parents do, she was able to understand what he was attempting to do while at the same time applying her known knowledge of faith to find the right path – and, she was able to successfully argue that to her parents. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/neighbor-2/ If you’re Bible people, and you just got fucking TOLD by the Bible, via a person you know has studied it inside and out, there’s not a whole lot else you can do about it.
When God (or various gods/goddesses) speaks to people of faith, it’s not like some Monty Python bit where a giant, angry, old white man with a flappy jaw parts the clouds and bongoes out everyone in the vicinity. We respond to cues our intuition and emotions are giving us after thinking deeply about our situation. That’s how “God” tells shitty people to do shitty things and good people to do good things. Organized religion came about as people realized this problem and sought religious leaders who could tell them what were “actually” shitty things and good things. How can someone like Jesus flip a table on money changers and accept the existence of a prostitute yet curse a fig tree to death for not producing out of season? Because he was a people person, not a botanist. ^^; For some people of faith, it can be hard to diverge from the teachings of their organized religion, because teasing out the complex socio-political history of their religion is way beyond high school education, and often outside the realm of many college majors. Hank seems to be in the place of someone who’s had just enough college and world experience to be able to fall back on faith when religion falters; Joyce followed in his footsteps and went even further than he did. Hank’s passive-aggressive prayer circle actually came back on him as much as it did Joyce, but that’s what he gets for including “us” in it. :p
(As a sidenote, Joyce’s current crisis of faith is a plateau in faith development that Hank could very well be approaching himself, and it has me concerned for what happens when they get home. Joyce has reached the place where the foundation of her religion has been challenged, and as a result, has become completely divested from her faith, leaving her faith challenged because it has to stand on its own. This is where people, at least in America, are starting to define themselves as “spiritual, not religious” – they reached a point where faith and religion diverged, and when presented with the challenge, the religion failed and the faith persevered. For others, both fail, and they become atheists. Passive-aggressiveness is frequently a sign of fracturing in one or both foundations, because the individual feels the fracture but doesn’t know how to stay afloat emotionally while still responding to the fracture. It’s emotionally comforting to placate yourself with the belief that you’re doing something “right” or “nice” while still going on the offensive against the perceived threat. Toedad responded to perceived attacks on his faith and religion with an aggressive attack of his own, because there was no fracturing allowed in his perception and he felt he had that solid foundation to stand on when he decided to let his gun speak for him. He felt emotionally comfortable being an asshat because he felt his faith and religion supported him in it. This is what makes me concerned about Joyce’s mom – her statements to Joyce on the phone that she understood where Toedad was coming from and “I would die for you” suggest that she’s aligning more closely to Toedad’s extremism. Extremism RELIES on the mentally/emotionally weak developing that inflexible foundation to bolster themselves; if the person were mentally/emotionally strong and felt a strong foundation, they would not need to turn to extremism, because they would feel secure in themselves despite any outside influences. There are many, many examples of this around the world, but the most visible to Americans are among the Buddhist and Amish communities, because they also live physically very differently than most Americans do.)
Plus several.
As for “listening to God”, check out the Montanists.
They put their visions on an equal basis with scripture, and the Church Fathers decided This Would Not Do. (we don’t do that so much any more)
Yes, I should have included small sects such as Montanists (and they also exist among other world religions) do rely on ecstasies, oracles and prophesies to fill in the blanks of their religions. Even among them, however, it’s not typically an every day experience; ecstasies, in particular, tend to follow intense periods of meditation, illness, or ceremony.
Also, in specific, examined cases, the dominant faith groups can accept them. The Ecstasy of Saint Teresa (Teresa of Ávila), immortalized by Bernini, and the Marian apparitions (particularly those at Lourdes, Fátima, and Guadaloupe) are examples from Catholicism. It’s much more of a fight in those cases to gain acceptance that A) the visions happened B) they were divine and not diabolical and C) they had any relevance to the broader religion at large.
There is some belief that these are a hold over from older faiths and our connection to mysticism; many of the people involved were practicing mystics or children of such, and especially in more ancient times, many were former pagans. (There are some researchers who believe Montanus was a pagan before converting to Christianity, possibly a priest of Apollo or Cybele. Both were well-known in Phrygia, and devotees to both deities were familiar with oracles and ecstatic practice.)
All of these are well-known to alter the state of the brain and often create visionary experiences. Meditation, in particular, alters the distribution of brain waves http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100319210631.htm and creates a breeding ground that bolsters creativity and alleviates depression, among other effects. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201504/alpha-brain-waves-boost-creativity-and-reduce-depression Our ancestors didn’t have access to EEG machines, so they didn’t know why these practices worked, they just knew they did. The practice continues to recur through a combination of passing down the habits and spontaneous generation as individuals discover it for themselves independently. It’s far and away from being a widespread practice anywhere – we can’t even convince public schools to devote 15 minutes of their morning to having the students sit quietly and clear their heads, much less encourage the population as a whole to practice a combination of deep introspection, meditation and ceremony, which is the best breeding ground for ecstatic experience.
FWIW, I suspected that Hank was acting at least in part to keep family unity. The proof or debunking of this theory will come later on when they get to the Brown home. We’ll see how acts if and when Joyce and Carol (and possibly Jocelyn and Carol) butt heads. If he takes a middle-of-the-road route seeming to back up Carol somewhat but not aggressively and encourages not rubbing things in others’ faces, then we know he’s by instinct a peace-keeper.
It’s also quite possible that, as Spencer suggests, he’s had a Damascene conversion based on his experiences to date. As I said, we’ll have to wait and see.
I like how In the Walkyverse Joyce found out that her parents were (VERY) different than her picture of them and here she’s also finding out that at least her dad is different, even though they are both different … but also similar. Willis continues to ring interesting changes on his characters as the same people in different universes.
Just an idle observation from yesterday, but it seems like if a person has parents who are together in a Willisverse, and only one of them needs to be a horrible person, it’s typically the mom. See Carol/Hank, Linda/Charles, Ethan’s parents. It’s only after the mom dies or divorces them then the dad is allowed to be the worst (see: Blaine, Ross).
Huh? Each of those sets of parents show that the dads are also actively doing something wrong to their child. See Charles’ conversation with Sal about her hair, or Saul’s speech with Ethan about women, or the fact that Hank was the one who directed Joyce away from the Keeners.
Also, IIRC, Blaine was always a nightmare but her mom was always a goodie, notwithstanding that took many years till she developed sufficiently to get herself free of him.
Well if we’re disregarding divorced/widowed dads, actual good parents, and parents who seem to be equally awful to their child (Danny’s parents, Billie’s parents), and parents who are unknown quantities (We don’t know anything about Sarah’s family in this universe really) then I guess you have a convincing pattern there. It’s just that there’s a lot of parents who fall into the groups I mentioned.
I mean, does it matter? Charles Walkerton and Saul Siegal might be less actively horrible to their children (and even that’s debatable in Charles’ case), but that doesn’t make it any worse.
It’s good to see her Dad is pretty nice… but from what we’ve already seen of her Mom (at Freshman Family Weekend, especially the way she treated Dorothy and her parents… plus her phone conversation with Joyce), I’m thinking she’s going to be the opposite of understanding.
Here’s what I think is going to happen, They get to Joyce’s home, and to the surprise of everyone, Carol is perfectly nice….and then, Ross breaks out of prison, murders them both, and takes Becky. Also the school burns down, Blaine kidnaps Dorothy, and Danny is stabbed in the stomach.
Hm. Hypothesis 1): you’re parodying folks worried that things will go less than the best in this not quite most perfect of universes. Hypothesis 2) Youre actually Guy posting as Someone, and you might want stop listening to The Voices, maybe get your meds adjusted?
Unless Hank does something this weekend to revoke his “pretty cool” Dad card, I don’t think Carol can negate this interaction. She could be perfectly horrible, but Hank is being very supportive, and at the very least that should help provide an anchor of sorts. Not to say that this weekend will be nice. But I think that at the very least this moment could help offset at least some of the shit storm that could be coming down the pipe.
I agree… I don’t think Carol should negate anything he does because he is clearly trying. I just feel like the comments section badly wants to negate all the happy in the comic (except Dina/Becky because they’re too cute to want to negate). I get that Carol could very well be awful, but this interaction still matters a great deal in Joyce’s development and Hank’s development and we should be happy for that.
I know things will probably not continue being this nice, but right now I’m really content to just happily enjoy this calm, normal, sweet moment between a father and daughter.
Carol: “Hi sweetie! I heard about your haircut so I JUST HAD to run out and get myself one just like that. What do you think, isn’t it ‘Rad’?”
Joyce: M..mum?”
Becky: “NOOOOO, my rebellion is ruined.”
Hank: “Could you kids play outside a little while, your mum and I need some alone time…”
Joyce’s dad is a decent man but he still holds to his beliefs. He may not believe it is his place to judge Becky but that doesn’t mean he approves of her orientation either.
And Becky is at a stage in her life where she can be exceedingly abrasive. I worry that, while not intending to, she’ll throw sand in gears of a machine that is struggling to be accepting.
Not to be an ass about it. But there’s an art to this sort of thing. You want to hit people hard enough that they’re forced to confront what they’d rather ignore. But not so hard that you antagonize them when they’re making an honest effort.
It does; and yet, I’m not letting my guard down. My own uncle is one of the nicest, glentlest folks you could imagine, and yet I’ve seen him act like a stubborn ass -to the point of nearly making his family break apart- when he felt that his religious principles were at stake. Fanatical indoctrination will make even good people do horrible things. I want to like Hank, but I can’t stop being afraid that something will happen that’ll draw out the fundie in him >_<
Too late, too tired to be eloquent, but these six panels are really hitting me hard. In a good way. A super good, personally meaningful and validating way.
Here’s a thought – Hank has made a point about coming to realise that Joyce is becoming an adult now. He seems to have come to a realisation (that Ross would always deny) that a parent’s authority over their child declines over time as they approach adulthood. Could it be that he treats his older kids differently and that the whole kerfuffle with Dorothy was because Joyce was still in his “Just a kid who needs to be protected” mental pigeon-hole?
She’s obviously not looking at Dad. If she was she’d be using the rear-view mirror.
Instead in panels 1 and 3 she’s looking at her right side mirror, and in panel 5 she’s looking at her left side mirror. Panel 6 she’s obviously looking right ahead. But still with a random sampling of four moments of highway driving she should be having her eyes forward more than 25% of the time. SOMETHING’S HAPPENING.
Obviously there’s something she’s worried about that’s behind the car.
I say it’s The Truck and she’s afraid for her life.
Panel 6, with her putting her eyes forward on the road, is her deciding that in this moment she can decide happy.
I can’t remember Joyce’s mom’s name, but I’m like, 900% sure she’s going to continue the weird unhealthy-smother-love. At least Joyce will have one decent parent in her life.
(Flash forward to them arriving home)
Carol: “Alright everyone, best get an early night, we need to be up early tomorrow.”
Joyce: “Why Mom?”
Carol: “We’re going to hold a prayer meeting outside the county court to get them to let Ross be released on parole while he’s waiting for his trial. After all the poor man was just trying to do what he thought best for his daughter.”
Probably not quite that bad. Carol’s likely to be less accepting than Hank, but not openly defy him, especially since she’s had warning.
But they will be going to church and I’d be shocked if Toedad’s happy fun gun times aren’t the topic of the sermon and likely in much the same victim-blaming way as Carol’s comments on the phone.
…. I didn’t even think of this, and I think it is highly unlikely as he DID unload a gun on a school and he DID kidnap his daughter. I think Ross is done, but the community shaming is not. I think we’ll see more than a few “Free Ross” flyers.
There was a time when no one, except social deviants, cursed. I’m 60 and I remember the first curse word used on television in the mid-1960s. There are plenty of places today where people just don’t curse, besides churches, and I think this event, having Becky drive, speaking to her as an equal and cursing in front of her. is a right of passage for father and daughter. He’s acknowledging that there is an appropriate time to curse and this is it.
Besides, the man pointed a gun at and threatened his daughter. I think if he only curses once a year, this would be the time and place.
The happy, hopeful look in Joyce’s eyes made me smile and I am liking Hank more and more, but I can’t help but feel that the other shoe is going to drop and bounce off her head when they arrive at their destination.
I will be curious to see how Hank reacts to Joyce when it’s not over a topic they have a mutual agreement on. Hank did not like Ross, and him taking a gun out probably didn’t leave much shed tears. And he had his own mini character development of “opening your heart and accepting joyce’s judgement” but so far that’s only been allocated to Dorothy (briefly) and Becky (old family friend)
I am interested in seeing how it will be tested further.
I have a brief happy-space moment where Becky lives with Joyce’s family and finds some stability until second semester when she enrolls and gets her own room in the wing. She and Dina have a couple of months of long-distance relationship…
And happy fantasy over. Back to Drama-filled Dumbing.
Of course, Hank’s attitude may stand in stark contrast to Carol’s. Fire and Brimstone may be waiting for Joyce when she gets home. Moreso with her lifelong, but newly out, friend in the house.
I’m starting to think that may be things won’t be completely ruined. Of course there’ll be a huge fight and general breakdown, but maybe it’ll just be a 75%-or-so breakdown.
Man, it’s just really nice to see that Joyce has someone in her corner. I know full well that shit is about to go down, because i have been reading DoA for a long time and have basic pattern recognizance, but even so just seeing that her dad is supporting her in this is really good.
I always find it a bit amusing when people act like they expect true Christians to never swear, and if they do start swearing they’re teetering on the edge of the precipice that will plunge them into disbelief. I can guarantee you that most (if not all) of the Christians you know let loose with the occasional curse word.
Oh sure, some will only use Ned Flanders style profanities when in a public setting, but if they are on their own, it’s probably another story. Some people will have a problem with that because it’s the classic Christian-acting-like-a-better-person-than-they-actually-are thing, but I think we all sometimes try to act better than we are and it isn’t always religiously motivated.
True that. Yeah, there are some Christians who never swear, or go Ned Flanders-style, and there’s nothing wrong with that. But you can’t hold us up to the idea that simply cursing suddenly makes us terrible examples of Christianity. We’re still human. I mean, I admit I don’t curse often, but I do it occasionally. Sometimes there’s nothing else you can think of that properly expresses your feelings of frustration.
From what I’ve heard around here in Corpus, ‘bless her soul’ is kind of a phrase they tend to use in reference to ‘poor thing’ in a kind of pity, but also to combine with the idea of not speaking ill of the dead. ‘Nice enough’ has always been the phrase I’ve heard used among my parents and their friends to describe people who were generally nice people, but not the sort they generally got along with.
There wouldn’t be any malice, but they didn’t exactly click. “He was nice enough” would be a way of not insulting them but also commenting that they weren’t someone you didn’t get along with that well. In general, I feel bad for Bonnie. It seems she had a pretty hard life.
FINALLY! We get proof that he’sat least the DECENT one here XD He didn’t even like Toedad all that much, but he likely kept around him because his daughter was friends with Becky.
Okay, this is messing with me. I identify a lot with Joyce. Both homeschooled, both raised in very fundamentalist homes, both well-meaning but with a lot of unexamined bigotry (although I admit I had some Mary-ish tendencies as well. Thankfully not quite as bad as Mary.)
Both fans of Hymmel the Hymnal, er, I mean Psalty the Singing Songbook, that kind of thing.
But this portrayal of Joyce’s father, it didn’t jive with my own memories. My parents were pretty terrible. Pretty much how I think most of us expected Joyce’s parents to be. Joyce’s Mom seems spot on with my recollections. Horrified at Ross’s behavior, and yet… she would die for Joyce, just like Ross. She thinks his heart was in the right place. They’re more alike than different. But Joyce’s father doesn’t seem like that. He seems to understand more. And I thought that didn’t jive with my own childhood growing up fundie.
But then I remember things like my Dad sneaking in listens of rock music when we weren’t supposed to, because it was the devil’s music. He never believed that, and he’s a big reason I love great music today. I remember him going to bat for me to be able to see Gladiator, though my mother overruled him. I remember him taking me to museums and science lectures, particularly astronomy which fascinated me, despite the fact that running into “anti-Christian” science was all but inevitable there.
So then I think… maybe he was like Joyce’s Dad after all, in some ways.
I hope not, though. Because if Joyce’s Dad is like my own, then his hypocrisy and these flashes of sanity ultimately aren’t going to save her. They’re just going to confuse her, and make her more aware of the dichotomy between the lessons her parents demand, and the hypocrisy they actually practice, and hurt her more when he eventually turns on her for not being the perfect girl.
But I’ve got to wonder… if he’s so cool about all this, if he’ll accept Becky as she is… then why didn’t he figure this stuff out in time to stop from fucking up Joyce’s life? So I don’t know what’s going to happen. And I’m probably not the best predictor, because I’m obviously projecting my own experiences onto Joyce.
I’m really looking forward to this storyline, everybody. And I say that knowing, no matter how it turns out, it’s going to sucker-punch me right in the gut. I love this comic!
I think it’s important to remember that while you identify with joyce, and your experiences are obviously similar in some ways, you are a different person from her (or Willis, who her experiences are largely based on.)
It’s good to recognize the similarities between yourself and others. That’s an important part of empathy. But it’s also important to let everyone else be defined by their experiences and their differences without burying them under your own expectations.
Because he couldn’t see it until it became personal. He’s like Joyce, though probably less so. It’s easy to believe these things in the abstract, when they’re far away, but much harder to keep it up when it’s not “homosexuality” you can condemn, but Becky, that good little girl you’ve known all your life and it’s your own daughter who’s heart you’d break by turning your back on her friend.
Doesn’t always work of course. Some stick to it anyway. But it’s the biggest factor behind the shift in public opinion on LGTBQ people. Mostly it happens when someone they know comes out.
This reminds me of a lot that happened with my dad, honestly. I was always so scared of losing his approval, but when I finally got to talk to him one-on-one, I found out things about him that had always been hidden by Mom’s opinions. He’s far more willing to understand than she ever has been.
I just finished my first re-read of all of Dumbing of Age (I first went through everything originally…two years ago?) and honestly this was such a great strip to end it on!
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“so anyway, uh, if we stop by for a visit, you think you could do a replay of the event in question”
…
“for reasons”
I need to record it..for..scientific reasons.
Hey now, this is Hank Brown.
“I need to record it..for..religious reasons.”
Kinda hard to do that if he is in prison.
Prisons have visiting hours, but stopping by to punch inmates probably isn’t allowed.
Not unless they punched you first and all you do is to return the favour.
After meeting Toedad, the guards might make an exception.
After meeting Toedad, the guards might just form an orderly line behind Joyce & Hank… XD
Bet the guards would make an exception in this case
I thought guards made all sorts of exceptions. Then again, I watched a lot of “Oz” on HBO.
Right. ‘Cause he’s the first real a–hole they’ve seen in prison. 😛
Show up at a hearing or the trial. Shouldn’t be tough to convince the judge to have the bailiff hold him down for you.
Speaking as a correctional officer, we’d have to arrest and charge you. Doesn’t mean we wouldn’t give you a high five as we applied the handcuffs.
Your avatar casts kind of an odd light on that. Walky’s grin… it stares into my soul. And threatens me with incarceration.
Oh, you felt that too? I thought it was indigestion.
I don’t mean to be over sensitive but … That is not funny at all. Considering what we know about how unjust our justice system can be, I hope to fuck YIU are just an angry 15 year old.
It’s not funny that a correctional officer would have to arrest you for assaulting a prisoner? Or that they’d high five you for assaulting a prisoner who was such a colossal asshole?
Because the first one seems like common sense, and the second one seems like an indication that they’re just humans too.
I think you’ve being overly sensitive here.
Not that hard, all you need is a dummy and the biggest plastic toe you can find.
QUICK WE MUST FIND THE WORLD’S BIGGEST PLASTIC TOE!
All I can find is the whole foot.
Awesome.
Joyce is seeing a whole new side of her dad here. I absolutely love it.
It’s official: I <3 Hank.
I can only assume, because Willis, that they are going to arrive home to discovery Joyce’s mom running a bakesale/candlelight vigil for Toedad’s legal defense fund.
After seeing how conservatively Joyce was raised, it’s easy to forget that her dad went to the same school and probably had the same breakaway experience in his own day. So, in all likelihood he’s just mastered the art of “do as I say and not as I do” in raising Joyce.
people generally get more conservative once they get older and have kids i also have a feeling its more joyce’s mom and hank just kinds of goes “yes honey” as long as its not too far left of center
This happens a LOT in these circles with a facade of patriarchy, but mom is really running the show. I was home schooled and about as lost as Joyce is in this comic when I hit the real world.
> people generally get more conservative once they get older and have kids
I’m guessing you haven’t gotten older yet, so please speak for yourself.
I’m pushing sixty, I have six grandchildren. I don’t find myself getting more conservative. To my tastes, Bernie Sanders is more conservative than I am.
That’s in the case of conservative people. I find left leaning people end up more left as they age as well. It’s more whatever your leaning are, you end up digging in your heels, covering your ears and yelling lalalalala whenever your views are challenged.
Ex: My aunt is a firm believer that microwave ovens are horrible for your health, and won’t listen when I try to explain how EMR works.
Personally I’m one of those people who drifted has left, and fairly hard left by modern standards, as I got older. When I was younger I considered myself centrist To tell the truth I think it’s actually as much politics in general drifting right as me drifting left.
I cant wait to see how this all explodes over jocelyne getting outed during the family visit 😀
She might out herself. I mean, if she does want to out herself eventually, she probably wants to confess to the whole family when they’re all together. And Hank’s reaction to Becky’s sexuality might give Jocelyn the encouragement to go ahead with it.
And then we’ll see if DoA fans still love Hank.
Outed?
Are you confused about the meaning of the word “outed” or what Jocelyne would be outed as?
I find that “outed” tends to have more negative connotations, like have one’s sexuality and/or gender identity forcibly exposed. “Coming out” struck me as a more passive phrase.
“Coming out” is voluntary, “being outed” is usually not. Hence, yes, it’s got a more negative connotation revolving around forced exposition. Because that’s usually what it is.
To me, “outing herself” sounds like something she’d do accidentally or in the heat of the moment.
More along the lines of outed as what…nevermind. I just realized you guys were talking about Joyce’s rarely mentioned sister.
Yes, they’re having a lovely father-daughter bonding moment. Makes me a little teary, truth be told. :`)
Well that cussing was very anti climatic.
No no, it was very important. Joyce is realizing she’s not a bad person after all for the changes she’s been going through. This is exactly what she’s been needing.
I think that comment has more to do with how much her behavior’s changed (at least by their standards) without crossing a line, even if it’s just one parent being okay with this.
Yeah, I’m going with all 3 comments here. Surprised Joycedad Hank wasn’t surprised by the “Asshole” comment, probably IS important Joyce realizes she now old enough to swear “properly” (at the right times & in the right context), And that Joyce’s behaviour has changed, but it hasn’t crossed the “OMG yous a bad child” line…
…And no, I didn’t just steal all that info off Daniel the Human…
…No matter what he says…
I believe “quoting for truth” means getting to swear as required
I like swearing that’s unnecessary as well as over the top.
The family that swears, cares.
Only cussing could have put a smile like that on Joyce’s face!
And here we were thinking Joyce going home would be all angsty. Well it’s not! Sure, when she GETS home it will probably get angsty, but the ride home is awesome
She’s not home yet.
Given Hank’s dialogue in panel 4, I’m guessing Becky’s mom (Toemom?) wasn’t that great either.
She died.
Yes yes and do not speak ill of the dead, but “nice enough” is something you say when you’re forced to come up with a compliment.
I’m assuming that since Becky’s family didn’t really fall apart at all during that whole time, the mom was very much a “good submissive wife” who didn’t speak much around others and was just sort of there.
Ross seems to be the kind of person who thinks there’s a “woman’s realm” and a “men’s realm,” and that women should be seen but not heard when men are talking.
Yep, definitely seems that way. Mr Willis has confirmed Toedad the Dick had a very specific idea of how “God’s perfect family of followers” MUST be structured, the Wife being “Loyal & obedient” to her husband probably includes her place being in the kitchen popping out food & babies. I hear there are still Humans out there like that. I’ll just see what an old friend of mine has to say about that…
I for one would not care to witness any woman popping out babies in the kitchen…
That doesn’t sound sanitary.
For the woman or the kitchen.
Ever watch Monty Python’s Meaning Of Life? The Catholic “Every Sperm Is Sacred” scene? If I remember right, the “Mother” dropped yet another kid out while doing the dishes…
…Can’t seem to find the scene on Youtube without linking to the whole movie, but I guess that means you got homework… 😛
Eh, it’s what you say when they’re too milquetoast to really say anything about. I’d guess the poor woman wasn’t very confident in herself and let toedad be as bossy as he could stand to be.
Becky misses her and said that she and Toedad were a family with her. So I wonder how to understand Bonnie.
Yeah, I kinda read ‘nice enough’ as ‘personable when the asshole wasn’t stopping her from being so, and would have gotten along with if she were married to someone else’.
Well, yeah, but “bless her soul” and “nice enough” imply she was tolerable and okay, – not greast.
“bless her soul” is “she’s dead and I’m being respectful” and “nice enough” is “she didn’t really have enough personality traits for me to comment on.”
I’m pretty sure he was referring to the “nice enough” part.
Anyone knows what age Becky was when Mrs McIntyre passed away? I’m curious..
It was just a couple of years ago, from what I remember.
It happened last year, so she’d be 17.
I don’t see it, sounds like he liked her.
Nice enough sounds like she was easier to get along with than Ross, but if their daughters weren’t best friends they probably wouldn’t have known them at all really.
“She was nice enough, bless her soul.”
My southern/Kentucky in-laws have assured me that such language all but equates to “Jesus, what a dinkwad.” Whether it’s a “She’s a horrible person” dinkwad or “Dumb as a sack of rocks, and sticking with that asshole of a husband” dinkwad is unclear. I’m not a native Southern Insult speaker.
As someone raised in AL, sounds like she was dull or not particularly sharp but nice, rather than a dinkwad by his phrasing.
“Bless his/her soul” seems to be pretty contextual, ranging from ‘heaven preserve the poor thing’ to ‘may they choke on a bag of leprous dicks in hell forevermore’ and everything in between.
My impression was that the “nice enough” was the damning part and the “bless her soul” was because she’s passed away, like how some people whenever they mention someone who’s died add in something like that, like “my grandma, may she rest in peace.”
Although I’m not from the part of the country where “bless her soul” is commonly used, so I don’t know if it’s used sincerely in that context, but that was my impression.
I think that’s ‘bless her heart,’ but idk. Bless her soul, when referring to a dead person, seems more like ‘may she rest in peace’ or whatever. But I’m not southern.
From a Texan, you’d be right. Bless her heart is an insult, typically said very condescendingly when passive aggressively insulting another person’s intelligence or morals. Bless her soul, on the other hand, under these circumstances, would probably be more a statement of pity. Along the lines of ‘Poor thing,’ more or less, particularly with her being dead. “Having to put up with that man,” perhaps, with an added “may she rest in peace.”
As a Southerner myself, that really depends on tone and context. Here it seems more like she didn’t make a strong enough impression beyond being inoffensive. “Nice enough.”
The “bless her soul” is probably literal and more refers to the fact that’s she’s dead than any polite dismissal.
Yeah. Here I feel like “bless her soul” is equivalent to “God rest her soul.”
I think… context. Carol used the same phrasing to whitewash Ross. The situation here, with a Hank who is repeatedly showing concern for others (and validating the hell out of Joyce, which is so damn unexpected and awesome), reads to me like the exact opposite—he’s using it to express his honest attitude towards someone who’s died.
(bonus points: how much of that “nice enough” is shorthand for “nice enough considering she’d made a life with Toedad”?)
No, the horrifying insult would be “bless her heart.” “Bless her soul” is “she’s dead.”
eh, he still seems to qualify her as someone he wouldn’t want to punch, at least not as much.
“People I wouldn’t want to punch” is about as well disposed as I get towards anyone.
I dunno. I like punching my friends if they don’t mind – not everyone’s up for sparring – but I can think of more than a few people whose hygeine is so bad I’d rather not touch them even with reinforced leather boots.
You have odd friends. I approve.
Now I want to see if we can get every dumbing of age commenter together for a massive fist fight
So..Dumbmania 2016?
I feel like I could take Ana, but I might have some issues with Doctor_Who
Wouldn’t be so sure about that. Ana seems to have super speed, since their posts always arrive first. Never underestimate the power of a good Initiative roll.
Whereas I haven’t been in a fight since the 6th grade. Won that one, but I daresay my skills have gotten rusty in the intervening 2 decades.
Is it weird that I sometimes think about ways I would take out various Walkyverse characters?
Robin: Offer her a candy bar, injected with some sort of sleeping agent. Even if she knows you’re fighting, she’ll still probably eat it.
Mike: Booze and a slingshot
Joyce: Wait until she pulls out the plasma gun, and then rush her…its a gamble but I doubt she would be wiling to fire it. You can then use the weight of the gun to knock her over
Last time I was involved a webcomic community smackdown (#avalon at Genericon lo these many moons ago), I kicked everyone’s butt.
I’m in. I’m a lifelong martial artist and don’t comment often, though, so I’m not sure if I count.
Halibut slaps?
It could either mean that he didn’t like her, or didn’t get enough of a sense to tell how she was. Seeing as Ross hit Becky, I wouldn’t be surprised if he hit Bonnie and she walked around barely having a personality. That also jives with the idea that “bless her soul,” could’ve referred to her having to suffer not only her affliction, but her marriage as well.
It’s kinda hard to say, but the lack of major reaction from Becky about the gun or the slap makes me feel like maybe she’s used to him being a violent fuck. Becky’s cry of “Why would you bring that” along with her not repsonding to Joyce’s surprise at Ross having a gun and Becky’s following words made it seem like she was way more surprised that he took his behaviour to the school, rather than that his behaviour was really all that surprising on its own.
Although since we haven’t gotten any real follow up on those specifics it’s hard to tell what’s up.
It sounds like Joyce’s mother may have been the main mover in the relationship between the two families.
Or as he implies, Becky & Joyce.
:-}
Officialy BEST FATHER EVER!
I know right? I STILL feel awkward cursing in front of my parents, and I’m 31.
Heh, total opposite from me. I remember my parents tried to teach me & and my brother not to use swear words, but my dad would always inadvertently do things like say “shit” when he messed up in front of us (and I’d scold him). So yeah, swear words are basically just normal vocabulary to me. ^^”
We tried setting up a swear jar, but since the proceeds inevitably got spent on neat stuff, it was a little counterproductive.
The time in high school that I swore at a teacher (from extreme exasperation and provocation), they called in my father but he couldn’t/didn’t say anything because, where did I pick that up, after all. Whatever his faults, I can’t recall him being hypocritical.
CALLED IT!
And Joyce swears in front of her dad, and he swears right back!
Swears right back with a more religiously-charged invective, no less.
I’m liking Hank more and more.
Cute
Bonding! ^_^
[Fathering Intensifies]Phrasing!
so swearing isnt gonna be an issue either i see
the first time you cuss in front of a parent and they don’t condemn you for it… good times, good times… at least I assume they are…
Good to see a Father-Daughter moment between them.
Looks like there is hope for Joyce’s dad.
(Unlike Becky’s dad, who is too far gone to salvage).
Dad’s being great…so mom is probably going to ruin it but not being great. Willis, you beautiful bastard.
Also, apologies for not being able to type words correctly and putting a “but” where a “by” goes.
Either that, or maybe Joyce is finally getting a break?
…
Her mom’s going to end up horrible isn’t she?
hahahahahayep
Judging by her mom saying what she did on the phone? Yeah, it might not go over great.
*plays Supertramp’s “Bloody Well Right” on the hacked car stereo*
I guess it’s hard not to agree.
I find myself grateful that for all the crap Joyce has had to go through lately, at least her dad’s in her corner.
Moments like this are why I love this comic.
damn right youre my new favourite character hank
The downside of realizing your parents are human is learning all of their flaws. The upside is you finally get to have a conversation with them on a (relatively) equal level, and relate to them as something besides authority figures.
Of course, that’s not helpful if your parents are like Toedad, but in that case, you can at least tell them to screw themselves with a rusty iron pole.
Or give him a double-bird as you tell him you’re throwing all his plans for you out the window and are going to be the opposite of everything he wants. 😀
And because it’s what you want, rather than just to piss him off. Pissing him off being a major bonus, of course.
OMG her reaction to him agreeing he’s an asshole (and also notably (IMO) not reprimanding her for the use of that word) is soooo cuuute 😀
I really hope his daughter’s actions will inspire him to go up against his wife when she inevitably says awful things about Becky.
And holy shit, I didn’t even pick up on the “damn right” line, I’m so used to that phrasing. This is awesome. 😀 This is gonna be awful. 😀
I know, it’s such a sweet moment, but it’s so clear that this home visit is going to start going massively wrong some time and now it’s just holding on to see how.
Do we need an ominous soundtrack here?
Six days worth of comic time, I reckon.
The suspense is killing me.
When they get back to the house, Hank will have to be careful of what he says again to keep Carol happy. He probably doesn’t get many opportunities to ‘let his hair down’ like this; even fewer around the kids.
I’m just going to enjoy these moments while we have them and not wait for the shoe to drop… Yay! for Hank. May he be a better man, even if it does all go to hell
I did too, but you can bet Joyce didn’t.
So far, so good. But the acid test as to just how well-adjusted (for a fundie Christian) Mr. Brown is will come when Jocelyne announces herself.
Personal experience has taught me that it can go either way. Fingers crossed though.
I’m going to guess it’ll depend on whether or not she comes crashing through the door the way Becky did into the lobby, except instead of yelling I’M A LESBIAN, yelling I’M A GIRL. ^^;
Jocelyn seems fairly reserved in general, so I’m thinking that’s unlikely. I feel like she’s going to talk to Joyce first, once she finds out Joyce is okay with Becky and everything that went down with Toedad, and either Joyce’s parents walk in on the conversation or Joyce convinces her to talk to their parents about it.
Maybe she’s already out to her brothers, and they’re all waiting for the right opportunity to tell Joyce? I can see a “Mom’s kinda nuts, Jackie.” over the March 21st preview panel.
He took the “smile and nod” approach to Becky being gay. I’m hopeful that even if he can’t immediately wrap his mind around the idea of Jocelyn, he’ll do his best to be supportive until he can.
You know, that might be the case.
I don’t think he’s quite grasped that “gay” doesn’t mean “hedonistic sex monster”, but he’s trying put aside his discomfort for Becky’s sake. If he found out that Jocelyne was in the same boat as Becky, as someone he loves from a group he’s probably heard tons of horrible, dehumanizing shit about, then I can see him trying to extend that same effort as well.
AWWWWWWW
Acceptance! Bonding! Validating her rightful anger! Best car ride.
If they were in Ultra Car, they would have got a free trip to the Amazon.
That Parenting Thing where you hang out with adults you don’t really like bc your kids are super close.
Ah, I see he’s reclassified Toedad as not actually a man of God because he disagrees with Toedad’s actions. Of course. No true
ScotsmanChristian would act as Toedad did.I’m probably being over-harsh to Joyce’s dad, who is doing well to support her and to be honest in his previous misgivings, but that line grates.
To be fair, the alternative is to implicitly accept that being a man of God might lead one to do what Toedad did, which is probably something that he’s not ready to do, yet. So he files Ross away in the “goat” side of the sheep-goat metaphor, and won’t reconsider it until/unless he’s forced to.
Which, considering the whole thing with Joyce’s mother, might happen sooner than he thinks.
I think it’s more that he believes being a belligerent ass like Toedad was means he’s not being a good Christian. It’s important to remember that not all Christians are terrible jerks who approve of picketing gay funerals or controlling their kids’ lives at gunpoint (or at all). Toedad is an example of the worst kind of Christian and clearly Hank’s comment shows he doesn’t feel that Toedad’s been true to his faith via his hurtful actions.
What grates on me is the misuse of the No True Scotsman fallacy. It requires there to be a definition that is established at first, a claim to be made, a counterexample given, and then the definition changed.
Ross was not in any way following Christ’s teachings in the way he acted. There is nothing wrong with Hank saying he’s not a man of God. He previously thought he did follow Christ’s teachings, so he previously thought he was a man of God.
It’s like someone saying “No good person murders people.” “Well, James murders people.” “Well, then, James isn’t a good person.” That’s not a fallacy, but perfectly sound logic.
…marry me.
Thank. You.
…ahahaha. He was absolutely following a number of Christ’s teachings. It’s unfortunate many of them were shitty. However, ‘man of god’ is a bit less clearly cut than ‘christian’. To deny he was a Christian would be obviously counterfactual – undeniably an example of the No True Scotsmen fallacy. ‘Man of God’, depending on its definition, may actually, factually mean ‘does what I think is god’s will’, and that’s a definition you’re more in line to say he doesn’t fit for any of a number of subjective (Or even petty) reasons.
The traditional ‘no true scotsmen’ examples don’t involve the hypothetical scotsman agreeing to a definition of ‘Scotsmen’ first either. But ‘scotsmen’ is generally not a subjective term that the hypothetical scotsman gets to define.
…I’m trying to think of one of Christ’s “shitty teachings” that Toedad was “absolutely following”. I’m sure you’ll have a few context-free verses lined up, just as he did. However, I’m going to stick with Matthew 7:21 – and the surrounding chapter – as the obvious refutation.
I also like how you think it’s “obviously counterfactual” to claim Ross is no Christian, as though there were some objective measure that conveniently always includes assholes who claim the term. (Well, in truth, there kind of is an available metric: the term literally means “little Christ”, as in one who imitates Jesus, and you’ll find Jesus’ teachings to be chock full of basically “See that guy, Ross McIntyre? Don’t be like that guy.”)
Once you start adopting definitions that rule out huge swaths of people calling themselves Christian throughout history, even if you have Biblical arguments for it, I pretty much lose interest.
You throw out some quotes that disqualify him, he throws out some quotes that disqualify you, you dispute those as context-free, he disputes yours, I don’t care.
With damn few exceptions, Christians are those who call themselves Christian or claim to follow Christ. Otherwise you wind up in exactly the “No True Scotsman” situation where Christians are all good people because that’s how you define Christian. (However you define “good” as well.)
Which is kinda the point of how people over-apply the No True Scotsman argument. Following a faith is not like nationality or ethnicity; it’s subjective, and just because someone claims a label doesn’t mean others will (or must) accept their claim. (This applies especially in cases, such as Christianity, where the religion’s own teachings explicitly state that not all who claim to follow Christ actually do.)
As a slight aside, when the definition of TERFs came up a few days ago, one of the sites mentioned that the term TERF arose in response to “the appropriation of the radical feminist identity by what is essentially a hate group”. I filed that away for future reference, because that sentence pretty much perfectly encapsulates how I feel about the Religious Right vis-à-vis Christianity as a whole.
You are of course free to define Christian for your own use as narrowly as you like. Others are free to use their own definitions to exclude you. They will have their own doctrines and their own interpretations of scripture, their own scholars and apologetics.
And thus we have hundreds or thousands of sects of Christians, many claiming to be the one true way and leading in the past to religious wars.
While it may be a fine religious definition, it’s pretty much useless otherwise. Historically, we can talk about the spread of Christianity, for example, but it may have nothing to do with what you’re calling Christian. It’s one thing if it’s the occasional small hate group appropriating the name, but it’s not. If anything, the groups you (and I) might approve of may be the minority changing from the norm. Certainly in the case of homosexuality, it wasn’t that long ago it would have been condemned by nearly all denominations. Though many would have been more like Carol or earlier Hank & Joyce than willing to risk murder over it like Ross.
Does that mean there were few to no Christians before a few decades ago?
Given that we were talking about (mis)applying the NTS fallacy to people claiming Christianity, I’m not really following your argument? You seem to be giving a whole bunch of reasons why it doesn’t work, since everyone involved might have a different idea of what “Christian” means.
For my part, I agree wholeheartedly with trlkly’s post above. Beyond that, we seem to be going in circles (and I’m kinda regretting responding in irritation to Rutee).
Really, dude? Upholding the old laws, etc etc. Cast that, with the bit about how you must give up your family or you aren’t a true follower of christ, and you’ve got a pretty solid basis for him. The old laws were rubbish, and did indeed include ironclad strictures against Christianity. Like, if you want to emphasize different, less shitty parts of Jesus’ various messages, great. But trying to rule a bunch of Christian not-Christian is exactly No True Scotsman territory. There is one definition of a Christian – claims to follow the teachings of Christ. You don’t get to rule which ones subjectively count. By doing so, you’re doing the EXACT THING No True Scotsman is for. Just like the hypothetical scottish nationalist doesn’t get to redefine ‘scotsman’ to suit his subjective definition, so too, do you not get to.
It’s not ‘overapplying the fallacy’. It’s pointing out you don’t get ownership of the definition. Because you fucking don’t. And when you’re using your assumed ownership of the definition to remove people you find uncomfortable from your in-group, well, you’re fuckin’ playing Scotsman with us.
Er, ironclad strictures against homosexuality. Sure, they weren’t that important, and pretty much all Christians who claim to uphold them are hypocrites, but they are THERE.
Whoa, she drops the cursing bomb and he doesn’t even flinch. That’s an incredibly important moment for Joyce, especially as the cursing thing was the thing she was scared she couldn’t hide.
One parent down, one more to go( which I bet it won’t be as easy).
Carol is going to be a fucking nightmare.
I suspect family trauma.
Oh please. To take down her mom you just need a… I was going to say a cross or some holly water but that’d be just a bit too weird in this situation so I’m gonna say a big enough gun.
This webcomic is probably a bit too serious for me typing that to be a good idea.
everythingwentbetterthanexpected.jpg
Wow. Joyce’s dad is pretty cool. I’m sure he’ll find a way to screw it up, but for now, this is nice.
I am liking hank so far
All the thumbs up for Hank.
Oh wow this made me tear up a bit
I’m not crying. I’m not crying. No, not crying…..
For some people, their growing feelings are of appreciation for Hank. Mine consist of a deep, ever-growing sense of foreboding.
Oh, the foreboding’s always there. If we got hung up on it we’d never remember to feel joy.
It’s what keeps us coming back.
Yeah, I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop. Haha. However, I think it is good for Joyce to feel like she is not alone. That an authority figure in her life is affirming her actions. These past several weeks have been fairly earth shattering for her, I don’t imagine she can handle much more. At least she knows that her dad is on her side, and can swear and not feel like less of a Christian.
Considering he didn’t freak out at her saying ‘asshole’ and said ‘damn’ right after, Mr. Brown doesn’t seem too strict about swearing. I’m going to take this as another clue that he’s the mellow one compared to Joyce’s mom.
Hank was the one who dragged Joyce away from Evil Corrupting Atheist Dorothy, tried to get Joyce to stay away from her, and compared her to Hitler.
IDK, he’s getting better, he’s very clearly trying to adapt and learn, but I’d say that’s something he’s trying to do now, rather than always having been that way.
Yes, Mr. Willis made it explicit in this strip.
As Trolldrool pointed out yesterday, that prayer scene was pretty ugly (the strip he referenced and the one immediately preceding it).
To be fair to Hank, he might or might not have had good experiences with atheists. I was raised atheist, and I don’t care for the actions of a lot of them toward religious people (including how I was as a teenager, and how my parents and brothers still are).
Is Hank excused for his concern if all of the atheists he encountered told him he was stupid and needs to stop believing in the “sky fairy” or “Santa Claus”? [Many of the atheists I went to university with] How about if one or more of them say that anyone who believes in God is crazy and should be in a mental institution, right alongside schizophrenics and psychopaths? [My brother] How about if they said religious people shouldn’t be allowed to vote? [My parents]
There is a lot of bullshit and hate that comes out of atheist mouths. No, Hank shouldn’t have judged Dorothy without finding out what she was like; he prayed about it, and obviously God let Joyce make the right decisions, just like Hank prayed for and like he later acknowledged Joyce was able to do. (As an aside for that, Hank doesn’t know it yet, but Joyce is not “yolked” to “unbelievers” either, again as he asked. Joyce did a perfectly fine job standing up to Dorothy and telling her not to keep trying to change her.)
It was Joyce’s MOM who tried to separate Joyce and Dorothy from even walking near each other. And actually, now that I’ve gone back to look at both scenes with Joyce’s parents to try to find the exact quotes, I see that I was remembering correctly that Joyce’s mom was the one who started the hate train every time. She made the angry “we’re leaving” face and Hank pulled Joyce away from them. She made the reference to Nazis, and Hank followed suit with the Hitler statement. She has, actually, an almost perpetually angry/hateful face on when things aren’t going her way, and Hank varies between concern, frustration, worry, and resignation.
And, when Hank acknowledges Joyce’s ability to make her own decisions the first time, he seems incredibly relieved, while Carol is still upset about it. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/takeafter/
I feel like Hank is a good dude deep down, he just is uneducated in contemporary social issues. My atheist parents have said way more hateful things about LGBTQIA people – and I’m bi – than Hank has yet. Granted, Jocelyn isn’t out to her family, but I feel like he would at least struggle to understand a bit, whereas my parents don’t. (I won’t even repeat what they say about transgender individuals for the sake of example.)
And for that matter, my parents have been just as much or more hateful toward people of faith than he has been toward atheists.
A lack of education goes a long way toward making otherwise good people do and say asshole things. People fuck up; it’s what we do. The difference between good people and shitty people is that good people listen, consider, and sometimes change, and shitty people lock themselves into one mindset and never change it, no matter what in the way of evidence or experience is presented to them.
Homo/trans phobic attitudes are generational rather than across the cultural divides, I think.
Don’t know what Hank does for a living, but if he works with others regularly, he’s bound to have encountered at least a few who cussed. He also went to school in the same University as Joyce, so I figure he’ more open minded and/or accepting of others.
Regardless, yeah, it’s nice to know that not all parents in the DoA universe are horrible, and that there are some decent ones out there. Nice to know Joyce’s family isn’t nearly as screwed up as others we have seen.
I give Hank Brown 2 thumbs up.
I’m fairly sure Dorothy’s parents were nice enough, casting a quick glance back. Or is there something I’ve forgotten?
You’re probably right, as are Dina’s, though we haven’t seen that much of them yet. Though I’d say the telephone conversation between Dina and her folks over Becky earlier does place them high on the good list.
I
I
I can’t
I can’t even put this into proper words.
Hank may very well make it into my Top 10 DoA characters, and definitely into my Top 5 Fictional Dads.
But knowing Willis, Carol is going to make the comments section seriously SERIOUSLY pissy for a long time. I suspect plenty of commets-disabling in the future because of something fucked up and bigoted that Carol says.
*sigh*
Damn you Willis, yadda yadda yadda.
Yeah, I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop, myself. >.>
I think Hank is going to stay a sympathetic character, but prove to be far from perfect. I imagine he’s always tried to be a good dad, even when he was comparing Dorothy to Hitler. He’s not going to stop trying. We’ll see how that goes.
Eh, the bongo filter is still on. I think Mary’s strips were locked because she became a particularly hateful, troll-inspiring variety of bongo.
I would like to think Carol will restrain herself to angry faces and mild hate speech, just like she did at the campus; then again, in the safety of her own home, she might go full Mary!bongo and have to have her comment threads locked. ^^;
Me too, Joyce baby, me too.
Fingers crossed for him being cool about Jocelyne, because that’s the only thing I can see ruining him now.
……cool
Eyes on the road, Joyce!
“Look out, someone’s acting with integrity right ahead of us!”
LOL STOP THAT!
no regrets
Dude come on!
that truck really came onto ruth
really gave her some major whiplash
Truck driver: “Oh God, not this again!”
So she was named Bonnie.
Bonnie Toemom.
Bonito Mom? o.o
Bonnie Barko.
of all the bonding moments i’ve seen, this one will forever hold a special place in my heart.
You have no idea how I am to hear Joyce and her dad cuss in the same vicinity of each other.
It really says a lot about Joyce and how really Christian her family is. You can still throw out some cusses and still live the values intended. Joyce’s dad? Dude seems like he does. Becky’s dad? Yeah no.
*how happy I am
Because proofreading is for squares?
I want to know the story behind that typo, that is one hell of a typo
wait shit, not really I thought at first you had said,
you have to idea, how idea I am
“you have to idea, how idea I am”
Sounds like one those memes where the Internet takes a rant made by a moron and snips out the most absurd line in the whole thing.
Some people save us the trouble of having to seek out the absurd line.
That grammar mistake, also how can he put that much cream?! Adding too much will ruin them!
This being DoA, Joyce’s dad being cool will probably mean Joyce’s mom is Most Definitely Not Cool
She might not be not cool but probably not taking it as well. Or Becky’s mother will be there when Joyce and Becky arrive.
I think Becky’s mother is dead?
Yeah, if Becky’s mom is there, we’ve got a whole set of different issues to deal with.
Satan took your mother from me,
I’ve generally seen it said that she died of cancer, but can’t find definite Word of Willis.
And if he meant she had left him, then going to stay with her would have been at least a possible option for Becky.
She’s a follower of Zombie Jesus!
i’ve been relating to joyce SO MUCH in this arc. though the “worried to accidentally say something ‘wrong'” was in front of grandparents, not parents. the day i cursed and my grandmother cursed in return was one of the most relieving moments of my life and made me realize she saw me as an adult.
My mother never swore until my father left. Now she cusses way more than I do. hahaha
I dunno if it’s been brought up, but…
What if Hank’s passive aggressive prayer circle was more an effort to keep the peace, than a genuine effort to change Joyce’s mind? It’s been awhile since I read those pages, but… The evidence we have points to Hank being the more mellow, less dogmatic believer compared to Carol.
I mean, I’m assuming they’ve been married at least 25 years. Hank has probably found himself in the role of peacemaker more than once, so he’s learned when to jump in and “take things to God” rather than letting Carol harangue their children into agreement/silence. Like, once Joyce quoted scripture to support herself, he understood the situation was a lot more complicated and there was no way it was going to be solved right there. Even though Carol would try and Joyce wouldn’t back down.
Granted, that could be wishful thinking on my part.
The way I view the idea of Hank “always” being the good parent is that it cheapens his development now.
Like, both Brown parents were being horrible dickheads during the Freshman Family Weekend storyline, but it’s that Hank looked within and realized that, if his adorable baby girl could argue at him to be friends with an atheist, using the bible at that, then maybe he needs to reevaluate stuff when said stuff almost got his daughter’s head blown off.
If he’s always been Cool Dad, which he wasn’t because he actually compared Dorothy to Hitler, than I feel it means less to see him start crawling out of the hole he’s dug. It means he got a head start in the race to be a not shit parent.
How about: he wasn’t “Cool Dad” since, as you say, he was NOT cool during FFW, but he was all along predisposed to think about something which Joyce, for one, might say to him with such passion and commitment? So he had the latent potential to change/develop because he already was open to influence from Joyce — AND I hope Jocelyne. Many folks have expressed concern that she will be his Bridge too Far, but I very much hope that he’ll be ready to follow his other daughter over that one.
Or maybe he’s always been “Cool Dad” within the boundaries they understand, ones that exclude, for example, atheists and lesbians. Part of being the cool dad being a willingness to grow, and challenge those boundaries. Good for him.
Yes: there’s at least 2, perhaps 3 different frames of reference in which to define “cool dad”. I suppose that its take your pick.
I’m going to agree with you on that. At the same time, he might still have been the more easy going or permissive parent before having that realization courtesy of Joyce. But, just because he’s the cool parent doesn’t mean he’s always been the good parent. Oh wait. Carol’s the other parent. Scratch that last sentence.
(Looks at the Hitler comparison strip again). Yeah, I’m going to disagree that he was just trying to keep the peace there. (I mean just look at what they’re saying when they are “taking it to God”)
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/takeittogod/
“Heavenly Father, we come before you today with our daughter in CRISIS.” [Joyce is encountering influences her parents disapprove of and defending those influences.] “We’ve said our piece, but now it’s up to YOU.” [He’s not going to continue pressuring her, he’s turning it over to God.]
“Give her the strength to make the RIGHT decisions, even when they are difficult.” [She has, repeatedly, since then.] “Let us not be yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship has light with darkness?” [Joyce is not yoked to anyone, including Dorothy. She just got done standing up to Dorothy during Gender Studies. Hank is not yoked to the same mindset Toedad was, whom he considers not Christian. Joyce has done a good job managing the darkness in her life and finding light, and Hank shows every promise of doing the same.]
Neat. Though in Hank and Carol’s view of that, Joyce is definitely yoked by Dorothy. And the right decisions is their decision. They basically dragged her away as soon as the Keeners mentioned she was raised arelgiously. That doesn’t show respect for Joyce’s decisions
Though I’m curious as to what your “It’s not passive aggressively shaming Joyce for arguing” interpretation of the alt text is.
It was certainly passive-aggressive; Hank (and probably Carol) had a very good idea in their heads of what was “right” when he was doing that, and he knew that Joyce knew what their interpretation was. However, they’re also people of faith; when they run into an emotional roadblock, they turn to their faith to help sort it out, because they’re not equipped with the social and emotional education necessary to otherwise piece it out. For them, prayer is a way of seeking a “second opinion” without feeling like they’re turning to another human, who may or may not be working in their best interest.
That’s the tricky thing about prayer (and the lesser-known variant, cursing), however – it relies entirely on the target to fulfill it. People don’t understand what good “sending our prayers” messages do for someone in the hospital from a terrible accident, mourning the death of a loved one, or enduring a stressful situation like leaving behind addiction. “If God could do anything about it, why did the bad thing happen in the first place?” Yadda, yadda, yadda. Facebook is filled with it, let alone anywhere else prayer chains go around.
What those prayers do is uplift the spirits of a person of faith; they know that they are not enduring their struggle alone. They know that not only are other people pulling for them, but other people are also taking time and energy to appeal to their deity on their behalf. For people who are not of faith and also not dickwads, they know that those prayers mean those people don’t have money, medical expertise, travel capacity, etc to help with but are still offering emotional support; they know that, in at least a small manner, their life means something to that other person and that can bolster the will to keep pushing through. As much as we keep trying to hold up isolationism and “I Can Do Everything All By Myself With No Help From Anyone” as the gold standard of success, we are still inherently social creatures and we still rely on the presence and support of others for our emotional and mental health – and, in the case of doctors and such, for our physical health as well. The isolationism comes from the fear that others are dragging or want to drag us down; faith communities attempt (with varying degrees of success) to lift their members up.
Hank’s passive-aggressive prayer is his attempt to lift Joyce up above what he thinks are influences that will drag her down the road to ruin. However, because Joyce is A) a good kid and B) understands her religious education even better than her parents do, she was able to understand what he was attempting to do while at the same time applying her known knowledge of faith to find the right path – and, she was able to successfully argue that to her parents. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/neighbor-2/ If you’re Bible people, and you just got fucking TOLD by the Bible, via a person you know has studied it inside and out, there’s not a whole lot else you can do about it.
When God (or various gods/goddesses) speaks to people of faith, it’s not like some Monty Python bit where a giant, angry, old white man with a flappy jaw parts the clouds and bongoes out everyone in the vicinity. We respond to cues our intuition and emotions are giving us after thinking deeply about our situation. That’s how “God” tells shitty people to do shitty things and good people to do good things. Organized religion came about as people realized this problem and sought religious leaders who could tell them what were “actually” shitty things and good things. How can someone like Jesus flip a table on money changers and accept the existence of a prostitute yet curse a fig tree to death for not producing out of season? Because he was a people person, not a botanist. ^^; For some people of faith, it can be hard to diverge from the teachings of their organized religion, because teasing out the complex socio-political history of their religion is way beyond high school education, and often outside the realm of many college majors. Hank seems to be in the place of someone who’s had just enough college and world experience to be able to fall back on faith when religion falters; Joyce followed in his footsteps and went even further than he did. Hank’s passive-aggressive prayer circle actually came back on him as much as it did Joyce, but that’s what he gets for including “us” in it. :p
(As a sidenote, Joyce’s current crisis of faith is a plateau in faith development that Hank could very well be approaching himself, and it has me concerned for what happens when they get home. Joyce has reached the place where the foundation of her religion has been challenged, and as a result, has become completely divested from her faith, leaving her faith challenged because it has to stand on its own. This is where people, at least in America, are starting to define themselves as “spiritual, not religious” – they reached a point where faith and religion diverged, and when presented with the challenge, the religion failed and the faith persevered. For others, both fail, and they become atheists. Passive-aggressiveness is frequently a sign of fracturing in one or both foundations, because the individual feels the fracture but doesn’t know how to stay afloat emotionally while still responding to the fracture. It’s emotionally comforting to placate yourself with the belief that you’re doing something “right” or “nice” while still going on the offensive against the perceived threat. Toedad responded to perceived attacks on his faith and religion with an aggressive attack of his own, because there was no fracturing allowed in his perception and he felt he had that solid foundation to stand on when he decided to let his gun speak for him. He felt emotionally comfortable being an asshat because he felt his faith and religion supported him in it. This is what makes me concerned about Joyce’s mom – her statements to Joyce on the phone that she understood where Toedad was coming from and “I would die for you” suggest that she’s aligning more closely to Toedad’s extremism. Extremism RELIES on the mentally/emotionally weak developing that inflexible foundation to bolster themselves; if the person were mentally/emotionally strong and felt a strong foundation, they would not need to turn to extremism, because they would feel secure in themselves despite any outside influences. There are many, many examples of this around the world, but the most visible to Americans are among the Buddhist and Amish communities, because they also live physically very differently than most Americans do.)
Plus several.
As for “listening to God”, check out the Montanists.
They put their visions on an equal basis with scripture, and the Church Fathers decided This Would Not Do. (we don’t do that so much any more)
Yes, I should have included small sects such as Montanists (and they also exist among other world religions) do rely on ecstasies, oracles and prophesies to fill in the blanks of their religions. Even among them, however, it’s not typically an every day experience; ecstasies, in particular, tend to follow intense periods of meditation, illness, or ceremony.
Also, in specific, examined cases, the dominant faith groups can accept them. The Ecstasy of Saint Teresa (Teresa of Ávila), immortalized by Bernini, and the Marian apparitions (particularly those at Lourdes, Fátima, and Guadaloupe) are examples from Catholicism. It’s much more of a fight in those cases to gain acceptance that A) the visions happened B) they were divine and not diabolical and C) they had any relevance to the broader religion at large.
There is some belief that these are a hold over from older faiths and our connection to mysticism; many of the people involved were practicing mystics or children of such, and especially in more ancient times, many were former pagans. (There are some researchers who believe Montanus was a pagan before converting to Christianity, possibly a priest of Apollo or Cybele. Both were well-known in Phrygia, and devotees to both deities were familiar with oracles and ecstatic practice.)
All of these are well-known to alter the state of the brain and often create visionary experiences. Meditation, in particular, alters the distribution of brain waves http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100319210631.htm and creates a breeding ground that bolsters creativity and alleviates depression, among other effects. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201504/alpha-brain-waves-boost-creativity-and-reduce-depression Our ancestors didn’t have access to EEG machines, so they didn’t know why these practices worked, they just knew they did. The practice continues to recur through a combination of passing down the habits and spontaneous generation as individuals discover it for themselves independently. It’s far and away from being a widespread practice anywhere – we can’t even convince public schools to devote 15 minutes of their morning to having the students sit quietly and clear their heads, much less encourage the population as a whole to practice a combination of deep introspection, meditation and ceremony, which is the best breeding ground for ecstatic experience.
FWIW, I suspected that Hank was acting at least in part to keep family unity. The proof or debunking of this theory will come later on when they get to the Brown home. We’ll see how acts if and when Joyce and Carol (and possibly Jocelyn and Carol) butt heads. If he takes a middle-of-the-road route seeming to back up Carol somewhat but not aggressively and encourages not rubbing things in others’ faces, then we know he’s by instinct a peace-keeper.
It’s also quite possible that, as Spencer suggests, he’s had a Damascene conversion based on his experiences to date. As I said, we’ll have to wait and see.
I wonder what Becky might think if she woke up and has heard this? Positive, I think.
Except for Hanks qualified at best opinion of Bonnie? Might Becky be hurt by this? She certainly doesn’t need that!
Now Joyce, don’t get cocky and start dropping h-bombs or gd-bombs. Stick with obscenity like a good Christian.
I like how In the Walkyverse Joyce found out that her parents were (VERY) different than her picture of them and here she’s also finding out that at least her dad is different, even though they are both different … but also similar. Willis continues to ring interesting changes on his characters as the same people in different universes.
Just an idle observation from yesterday, but it seems like if a person has parents who are together in a Willisverse, and only one of them needs to be a horrible person, it’s typically the mom. See Carol/Hank, Linda/Charles, Ethan’s parents. It’s only after the mom dies or divorces them then the dad is allowed to be the worst (see: Blaine, Ross).
Huh? Each of those sets of parents show that the dads are also actively doing something wrong to their child. See Charles’ conversation with Sal about her hair, or Saul’s speech with Ethan about women, or the fact that Hank was the one who directed Joyce away from the Keeners.
Also, IIRC, Blaine was always a nightmare but her mom was always a goodie, notwithstanding that took many years till she developed sufficiently to get herself free of him.
Yeah, she got free of him. She died of cancer.
No, Becky’s mother died, Amber’s mother is doing well(when she’s not being seduced by Joe’s dad that is )
I wonder how much of a ‘goodie’ Amber’s mom is when she abandoned her daughter to bang Joe’s dad for the afternoon.
She also wanted to send SP!Ethan to a conversion camp.
Except that the moms in those sets are typically worse. I can’t remember a Willisverse parent set with the dad being visibly worse than the mom.
Well if we’re disregarding divorced/widowed dads, actual good parents, and parents who seem to be equally awful to their child (Danny’s parents, Billie’s parents), and parents who are unknown quantities (We don’t know anything about Sarah’s family in this universe really) then I guess you have a convincing pattern there. It’s just that there’s a lot of parents who fall into the groups I mentioned.
I mean, does it matter? Charles Walkerton and Saul Siegal might be less actively horrible to their children (and even that’s debatable in Charles’ case), but that doesn’t make it any worse.
Blaine was still Blaine when he was married.
Why do people assume Joyce’s mom is horrible instead of just more or less Joyce at the beginning of the strip w/o all the new experiences?
This strip:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/sweetie/
Meanwhile, the Other Shoe is quietly taking control of the orbitals.
Shoefall?
It’s good to see her Dad is pretty nice… but from what we’ve already seen of her Mom (at Freshman Family Weekend, especially the way she treated Dorothy and her parents… plus her phone conversation with Joyce), I’m thinking she’s going to be the opposite of understanding.
This will probably not go well.
Here’s what I think is going to happen, They get to Joyce’s home, and to the surprise of everyone, Carol is perfectly nice….and then, Ross breaks out of prison, murders them both, and takes Becky. Also the school burns down, Blaine kidnaps Dorothy, and Danny is stabbed in the stomach.
Hm. Hypothesis 1): you’re parodying folks worried that things will go less than the best in this not quite most perfect of universes. Hypothesis 2) Youre actually Guy posting as Someone, and you might want stop listening to The Voices, maybe get your meds adjusted?
Fake answer: But the voices keep me warm.
Real Answer: Parody, and I like to role-play the deeply disturbed guy when the comments aren’t too serious.
At some point people HAVE to stop holding every other dad over Mr Brown’s head, right?
Eh, I just see it as a lot of people thinking that horrible people can never do anything good and good people can never do anything horrible.
If only actual human beings were like that.
Yes, but it won’t matter because if Carol does something wrong that somehow negates all the good things Hank just said/did anyways. Sigh.
Unless Hank does something this weekend to revoke his “pretty cool” Dad card, I don’t think Carol can negate this interaction. She could be perfectly horrible, but Hank is being very supportive, and at the very least that should help provide an anchor of sorts. Not to say that this weekend will be nice. But I think that at the very least this moment could help offset at least some of the shit storm that could be coming down the pipe.
I agree… I don’t think Carol should negate anything he does because he is clearly trying. I just feel like the comments section badly wants to negate all the happy in the comic (except Dina/Becky because they’re too cute to want to negate). I get that Carol could very well be awful, but this interaction still matters a great deal in Joyce’s development and Hank’s development and we should be happy for that.
I know things will probably not continue being this nice, but right now I’m really content to just happily enjoy this calm, normal, sweet moment between a father and daughter.
Aww
But she had been drawn piloting a mech, so that has to count for something.
So, is Joyce driving down the freeway with a rabid wolverine in her underwear?
Will she run into her hibachi dealer?
But what will he tell her when he takes off his prosthetic lips?
ALBUQUERQUE
What a nice moment between a father and daughter bonding. Really like it.
And then Mr. Willis introduces Becky and her haircut to Carol.
Carol: “Hi sweetie! I heard about your haircut so I JUST HAD to run out and get myself one just like that. What do you think, isn’t it ‘Rad’?”
Joyce: M..mum?”
Becky: “NOOOOO, my rebellion is ruined.”
Hank: “Could you kids play outside a little while, your mum and I need some alone time…”
“You’ve wanted to punch Mr. Macintyre?”
“It’s the only way to stub his toe.”
This is super awesome, but they’re going to get home sometime, and that’s going to kind of be an ordeal, isn’t it.
Okay. When does the shoe drop?
There you go Joyce! Even your dad swears sometimes, and wants to punch people! You’re totally fine!
Yes YES That is how to parent. You do not disappoint Joyce’s dad. Look how happy she is. It’s like her faith in the good of people has been restored.
This is… going too well… something… something has to be getting ready to explode in someone’s face… I smell a false sense of security brewing.
Simplest answer.
Joyce’s dad is a decent man but he still holds to his beliefs. He may not believe it is his place to judge Becky but that doesn’t mean he approves of her orientation either.
And Becky is at a stage in her life where she can be exceedingly abrasive. I worry that, while not intending to, she’ll throw sand in gears of a machine that is struggling to be accepting.
Not to be an ass about it. But there’s an art to this sort of thing. You want to hit people hard enough that they’re forced to confront what they’d rather ignore. But not so hard that you antagonize them when they’re making an honest effort.
This comic defines how good of a man Joyce’s father is.
It does; and yet, I’m not letting my guard down. My own uncle is one of the nicest, glentlest folks you could imagine, and yet I’ve seen him act like a stubborn ass -to the point of nearly making his family break apart- when he felt that his religious principles were at stake. Fanatical indoctrination will make even good people do horrible things. I want to like Hank, but I can’t stop being afraid that something will happen that’ll draw out the fundie in him >_<
Damn right, indeed.
I get the feeling next we see Jocelyne she will come out to her parents and quick to accept it
I JUST WANT JOYCE TO BE HAPPY
Too late, too tired to be eloquent, but these six panels are really hitting me hard. In a good way. A super good, personally meaningful and validating way.
Dad said “Damn”! I am justified!
Yessssssss ;o;
Here’s a thought – Hank has made a point about coming to realise that Joyce is becoming an adult now. He seems to have come to a realisation (that Ross would always deny) that a parent’s authority over their child declines over time as they approach adulthood. Could it be that he treats his older kids differently and that the whole kerfuffle with Dorothy was because Joyce was still in his “Just a kid who needs to be protected” mental pigeon-hole?
Yay! Father-daughter bonding.
How nice is Hank? He hung out with ToeDad so Becky and Joyce could spend time together. THAT’s how nice Hank is.
Fudge you, Toedad.
Toedad is a mother fudging son of a bongo.
Undeniably, unless Becky was a virgin birth.
Nooo!!!! Don’t fall for it people! It’s a trap! He’s just setting us up for something even worse!
Okay, what the hell’s going on with Joyce’s eyes?
She’s obviously not looking at Dad. If she was she’d be using the rear-view mirror.
Instead in panels 1 and 3 she’s looking at her right side mirror, and in panel 5 she’s looking at her left side mirror. Panel 6 she’s obviously looking right ahead. But still with a random sampling of four moments of highway driving she should be having her eyes forward more than 25% of the time. SOMETHING’S HAPPENING.
Obviously there’s something she’s worried about that’s behind the car.
I say it’s The Truck and she’s afraid for her life.
Panel 6, with her putting her eyes forward on the road, is her deciding that in this moment she can decide happy.
LOGIC.
i think shes just looking around a bit
It doesn’t matter where she points those eyes, she ain’t seeing anything without pupils anyway…
I can’t remember Joyce’s mom’s name, but I’m like, 900% sure she’s going to continue the weird unhealthy-smother-love. At least Joyce will have one decent parent in her life.
Mrs. Brown’s name is Carol, and i totally agree with this.
(Flash forward to them arriving home)
Carol: “Alright everyone, best get an early night, we need to be up early tomorrow.”
Joyce: “Why Mom?”
Carol: “We’re going to hold a prayer meeting outside the county court to get them to let Ross be released on parole while he’s waiting for his trial. After all the poor man was just trying to do what he thought best for his daughter.”
(Cue explosions)
Probably not quite that bad. Carol’s likely to be less accepting than Hank, but not openly defy him, especially since she’s had warning.
But they will be going to church and I’d be shocked if Toedad’s happy fun gun times aren’t the topic of the sermon and likely in much the same victim-blaming way as Carol’s comments on the phone.
…. I didn’t even think of this, and I think it is highly unlikely as he DID unload a gun on a school and he DID kidnap his daughter. I think Ross is done, but the community shaming is not. I think we’ll see more than a few “Free Ross” flyers.
Oh, no doubt. There’s going to be at least one person who blames Becky, and it’s probably going to be Carol.
There was a time when no one, except social deviants, cursed. I’m 60 and I remember the first curse word used on television in the mid-1960s. There are plenty of places today where people just don’t curse, besides churches, and I think this event, having Becky drive, speaking to her as an equal and cursing in front of her. is a right of passage for father and daughter. He’s acknowledging that there is an appropriate time to curse and this is it.
Besides, the man pointed a gun at and threatened his daughter. I think if he only curses once a year, this would be the time and place.
I sure hope this kind of thing won’t happen once a year!
They won’t have a car accident in next few strips, right?
Nothing like bonding over the realization your kid ALSO thinks her friends’ dad is an asshole.
WARNING! WARNING!
DOA DAD POINT COUNTER REACHING CRITICAL MASS!
DOOMING IMMINENT. PREPARE FOR DOOMING.
DOOOOOOM
Mr. Brown’s not quite my new favorite character, but he’s making a strong case on limited screen time.
It took me two goes to realise Joyce’s dad said “damn” and why else Joyce is smiling. Nicely done
… suspense is killing me right now.
Cuz this family visit will go wrong. It’s just a matter of when and how bad.
(On the upside, Hank is being genuinely decent, so yay)
Avast! A Joyce Smile! A real one!
The happy, hopeful look in Joyce’s eyes made me smile and I am liking Hank more and more, but I can’t help but feel that the other shoe is going to drop and bounce off her head when they arrive at their destination.
The other shoe is Mom. 🙁
Becky is going to be so disappointed she slept through this conversation (unless she’s playing possum)
Becky wasn’t sleeping, she was just saying ‘Z’ out loud.
Becky is Zorro!
Fighting for the rights of all people!
This super warms my heart. I’m so happy she and her dad can have this kind of talk. Joyce needs this.
Someone buy that man a beer and then let these two have a big hug at the end of the story arc. It’s all I can think of.
I will be curious to see how Hank reacts to Joyce when it’s not over a topic they have a mutual agreement on. Hank did not like Ross, and him taking a gun out probably didn’t leave much shed tears. And he had his own mini character development of “opening your heart and accepting joyce’s judgement” but so far that’s only been allocated to Dorothy (briefly) and Becky (old family friend)
I am interested in seeing how it will be tested further.
I have a brief happy-space moment where Becky lives with Joyce’s family and finds some stability until second semester when she enrolls and gets her own room in the wing. She and Dina have a couple of months of long-distance relationship…
And happy fantasy over. Back to Drama-filled Dumbing.
Given that Becky staying with the Browns until next semester would keep her out of the comic for years, it’s not gonna happen.
I don’t think we’re ever going to see a timeskip, either.
A family that swears together, stays together.
Can I just say, I love how your mike gravatar goes with your name!
should have been his alcohol
He’s just been to afraid of Trucks to put Joyce in a car. Doesn’t want to scare us.
Yes, Joyce had been sheltered for 18 years to spare our feelings. Before this drive, nothing remotely dangerous has happened to her.
Amusingly, she was actually sheltered by her parents for 18 years
…but not by Willis
Ahh, that’s a good dad.
Awww, I like Hank. He’s a good dad.
It’s just a matter of time before this gets ruined. 🙁
Of course, Hank’s attitude may stand in stark contrast to Carol’s. Fire and Brimstone may be waiting for Joyce when she gets home. Moreso with her lifelong, but newly out, friend in the house.
I’m starting to think that may be things won’t be completely ruined. Of course there’ll be a huge fight and general breakdown, but maybe it’ll just be a 75%-or-so breakdown.
Man, it’s just really nice to see that Joyce has someone in her corner. I know full well that shit is about to go down, because i have been reading DoA for a long time and have basic pattern recognizance, but even so just seeing that her dad is supporting her in this is really good.
Wow, I am more in love with Joyce’s dad with every new comic.
i know there’s a lot going on in this comic, but all i see right now are blue eyes.
everything is blue.
Perhaps the Happy Happyists have struck.
AND you have an Undertale avatar!
That’s okay. (Pins on Franklin Badge)
Hank you, Mr. Brown.
You’re not gonna trick me Willis, this is all going to go to shit at the drop of a hat.
Live in the moment.
I always find it a bit amusing when people act like they expect true Christians to never swear, and if they do start swearing they’re teetering on the edge of the precipice that will plunge them into disbelief. I can guarantee you that most (if not all) of the Christians you know let loose with the occasional curse word.
Oh sure, some will only use Ned Flanders style profanities when in a public setting, but if they are on their own, it’s probably another story. Some people will have a problem with that because it’s the classic Christian-acting-like-a-better-person-than-they-actually-are thing, but I think we all sometimes try to act better than we are and it isn’t always religiously motivated.
True that. Yeah, there are some Christians who never swear, or go Ned Flanders-style, and there’s nothing wrong with that. But you can’t hold us up to the idea that simply cursing suddenly makes us terrible examples of Christianity. We’re still human. I mean, I admit I don’t curse often, but I do it occasionally. Sometimes there’s nothing else you can think of that properly expresses your feelings of frustration.
I cursed way too often, even when I was a Christian.
I have a horrible feeling that once we get home, Hank is going to revert to God Man.
….huh. Hank’s a pretty swell guy.
For now.
Let’s see if it lasts. =\
This makes me so damned happy. I am, however, going to wait for the other shoe to drop.
From what I’ve heard around here in Corpus, ‘bless her soul’ is kind of a phrase they tend to use in reference to ‘poor thing’ in a kind of pity, but also to combine with the idea of not speaking ill of the dead. ‘Nice enough’ has always been the phrase I’ve heard used among my parents and their friends to describe people who were generally nice people, but not the sort they generally got along with.
There wouldn’t be any malice, but they didn’t exactly click. “He was nice enough” would be a way of not insulting them but also commenting that they weren’t someone you didn’t get along with that well. In general, I feel bad for Bonnie. It seems she had a pretty hard life.
I just want to say I’m so proud of these two right now. I’m tearing up a little.
Joyce this was a truly heartwarming moment but goddamnit you need to keep your eyes on the road and look out for trucks.
FINALLY! We get proof that he’sat least the DECENT one here XD He didn’t even like Toedad all that much, but he likely kept around him because his daughter was friends with Becky.
Okay, this is messing with me. I identify a lot with Joyce. Both homeschooled, both raised in very fundamentalist homes, both well-meaning but with a lot of unexamined bigotry (although I admit I had some Mary-ish tendencies as well. Thankfully not quite as bad as Mary.)
Both fans of Hymmel the Hymnal, er, I mean Psalty the Singing Songbook, that kind of thing.
But this portrayal of Joyce’s father, it didn’t jive with my own memories. My parents were pretty terrible. Pretty much how I think most of us expected Joyce’s parents to be. Joyce’s Mom seems spot on with my recollections. Horrified at Ross’s behavior, and yet… she would die for Joyce, just like Ross. She thinks his heart was in the right place. They’re more alike than different. But Joyce’s father doesn’t seem like that. He seems to understand more. And I thought that didn’t jive with my own childhood growing up fundie.
But then I remember things like my Dad sneaking in listens of rock music when we weren’t supposed to, because it was the devil’s music. He never believed that, and he’s a big reason I love great music today. I remember him going to bat for me to be able to see Gladiator, though my mother overruled him. I remember him taking me to museums and science lectures, particularly astronomy which fascinated me, despite the fact that running into “anti-Christian” science was all but inevitable there.
So then I think… maybe he was like Joyce’s Dad after all, in some ways.
I hope not, though. Because if Joyce’s Dad is like my own, then his hypocrisy and these flashes of sanity ultimately aren’t going to save her. They’re just going to confuse her, and make her more aware of the dichotomy between the lessons her parents demand, and the hypocrisy they actually practice, and hurt her more when he eventually turns on her for not being the perfect girl.
But I’ve got to wonder… if he’s so cool about all this, if he’ll accept Becky as she is… then why didn’t he figure this stuff out in time to stop from fucking up Joyce’s life? So I don’t know what’s going to happen. And I’m probably not the best predictor, because I’m obviously projecting my own experiences onto Joyce.
I’m really looking forward to this storyline, everybody. And I say that knowing, no matter how it turns out, it’s going to sucker-punch me right in the gut. I love this comic!
I think it’s important to remember that while you identify with joyce, and your experiences are obviously similar in some ways, you are a different person from her (or Willis, who her experiences are largely based on.)
It’s good to recognize the similarities between yourself and others. That’s an important part of empathy. But it’s also important to let everyone else be defined by their experiences and their differences without burying them under your own expectations.
Because he couldn’t see it until it became personal. He’s like Joyce, though probably less so. It’s easy to believe these things in the abstract, when they’re far away, but much harder to keep it up when it’s not “homosexuality” you can condemn, but Becky, that good little girl you’ve known all your life and it’s your own daughter who’s heart you’d break by turning your back on her friend.
Doesn’t always work of course. Some stick to it anyway. But it’s the biggest factor behind the shift in public opinion on LGTBQ people. Mostly it happens when someone they know comes out.
This reminds me of a lot that happened with my dad, honestly. I was always so scared of losing his approval, but when I finally got to talk to him one-on-one, I found out things about him that had always been hidden by Mom’s opinions. He’s far more willing to understand than she ever has been.
I just finished my first re-read of all of Dumbing of Age (I first went through everything originally…two years ago?) and honestly this was such a great strip to end it on!
Oh no. Joyce’s mom is going to shatter her new found validaddy.
oh my god
Well now I’m interested to see how interaction with JoyceMom will go.
Yay