That actually can be a thing. My it’s complicated’s mom back when she came out as bi, said that it was clearly just a phase, because she had those sorts of attractions for a roommate once but was able to “grow out of it”.
So, basically because she was bi and hid in the closet about it, then clearly that was an acceptable and ideal path for her daughter to take as well.
…unless the mom actually was just experimenting, and thinks that’s what her daughter is doing? It’s not right to impose upon your child that your experiences are what is “acceptable and ideal”, but that’s probably not what the mom thinks she’s doing.
Yeah, this is why Becky is all sorts of selflessly. To help Joyce she went willingly to a home and a community that was very likely to pull this exact stunt and she’s in for a long weekend of passive-aggressive comments and probably at least one “intervention” for her soul. Perhaps on Sunday when they go to Church (oh dear Bob will that be a mess).
She’s incredibly brave and strong, but this weekend is going to be even rougher and more dehumanizing for her than it will be for Joyce.
This. Becky’s behaviour in panels 1,3,4, and 5 is particularly telling after readers were calling her tactless and thoughtless just for saying hi to Hank. She’s clearly showing the self awareness she’s been accused of lacking pretty much since she became a regular cast member. In panel 1, she’s happily greeting Mrs Brown, clearly wanting to stay on good terms with her as well as Hank, and also clearly trying to be her usual happy go lucky self while Joyce is in the room. Panels 3 and 4 are, I think, a rare glimpse of the Becky beneath that persona. She’s clearly nervous around Carol, and is holding back, trying to be withdrawn to avoid drama or a confrontation (not that she should have to). And her expression in panel 5 is just a picture of disappointment, at Mrs Brown for being that awful passive aggressive through a smiling facade type of Christian, and quite possibly at herself for hoping she could get through this weekend without having to put up with this BS.
I like “passive aggressive through a smiling facade” enough to acronymize it. Mrs. Brown is a PATASF Christian, I just came back from a cringeful dinner at my PATASF in-laws where they spent the whole meal pleading with us to have lots of unprotected sex in order to make grandchildren for them to spoil, etc.
That’s the way it came across to me. It makes more sense in context that it’s Fran’s discovery of gender identity. Or at any rate, at least the excuse of such discovery used for breakup.
Unfortunately, watching the video and its visuals and I just went back to double-check that I wasn’t being unfair, we’ve got a picture of Fran looking like a punky, but tall cis woman and then she goes inside and it’s “lol” out steps a much older man with longer scraggly hair (which isn’t even the same color), wearing a slightly feminine shirt and then shrugging.
Now, trans men are totally allowed to have long hair, but by the framing, it’s pretty clear the intention of the joke is “lol, predatory trans women are just trying to trick you into dating men by wearing wigs and makeup” and are “actually men”.
Which is, sadly, a very common “joke”. So common, I would say it’s one of the 5 core stereotypes* of how trans people are typically depicted in fiction.
But it’s also transmisogynist as fuck.
*1) noble victim who teaches the cis characters or audience a thing about life and vaguely not being awful to those ciphers of a character (think Rayon from Dallas Buyer’s Club, they usually have almost no characterization compared to the other characters)
2) sexual predator who is just a man who is using their “transness” to spy on the “opposite” gender or buy entry into single-gendered spaces, usually for the purpose of being a creeper while there
3) the tragic brick who will never “pass”, so their protestations of being a woman are encouraged to be laughed at, because look at their football player physique or deep voice or hairy arms, how absurd, right?
4) the deceiver, like in this one, she looks so cis and passes so cis, but later they’ll be a reveal where she takes off her wig or reveals or is revealed to have junk and then everyone can make a big show of how disgusted they are by her and her “deception”
5) the psycho/killer, whose psychotic murdery ways is clearly foretold by their scary “deviant” behavior dressing up in the “wrong” gender’s clothes, and who is physically dangerous to be around. May also apply to trans men characters who are depicted as becoming dangerous abusive bullies due to “testosterone poisoning”, flying into uncontrollable rages and so on.
I think you’re mishearing the lyrics. “Fran ran, Bruce turned out to be a man” – they’re two different people. Also, since it’s a song about how all his past lovers have left him, it seemed to me that it was Bruce who broke it off.
Ok, fair cop, but “Bruce” is definitely still presented in a way that’s typically more a presentation of trans women by transphobes than trans men, right down the scraggly long hair, slightly feminine button-down shirt, and the being played by a cis dude. Which still makes that character at least transmisogynist as fuck and actually even worse than I heard it the first times because “Bruce” doesn’t even get her real name, just this dead name and a joke about her being a dude.
And hell even if it that part was about a trans man, the song is still titled Carol Brown (Choir of Ex-Girlfriends) and the “choir” scenes “Bruce” is in are referred to directly as a choir of ex-girlfriends so even if we were to extend that much undeserved credit, the singer is still misgendering the “Bruce” character.
And now that I’ve been through the whole thing 3 times, I will also point out that it definitely did leave me feeling gross as fuck, which is also pretty common for transphobic “jokes” in popular media.
The fact that you keep putting the word “joke” in quotations makes me think I hit a nerve. I’d like to clarify that I’m trans myself, MtF no less, so I know how seriously friggin annoying, insulting, demeaning, belittling, etc etc etc it can be to hear/see/read that type of thing over and over again. Like I said though, it’s not really clarified what they meant. While I admit that it’s probably more likely they were going for a cheap laugh, from what I’ve seen of Flight of the Concords in the past, they seem a little bit more high brow than that, so I’d rather give them the benefit of the doubt for now rather than jump the gun and just assume the worst.
Nah, it wasn’t directed towards you. But as for your point:
I guess, I’m just having a hard time believing that it’s about a trans man because the visuals in the music video (though I guess my major potential flaw here is assuming that they have any creative control over the videos) use so many visual shorthands that scream trans woman analogue. There’s played by cis dude, long hair, slightly open, feminine cut shirt, and so on. Now, a trans dude can totally have all of those (minus maybe the being played by a cis dude) and all power to him being a damn badass, but the visual shorthand would not easily lend itself in that direction in the video at least.
That all being said, I’m not going to say anyone should not enjoy the song or the band because of a problematic moment. We all enjoy problematic entertainment material all the time and it’s downright easy for a creator to slip up and make an “easy” joke and not be aware of how that comes off to someone marginalized.
As you say, you enjoy the Flight of the Concords and they have a higher brow type of comedy. That isn’t diminished or removed if they have a video with a single messed-up visual joke in the same way that Willis’s excellent track record wouldn’t be ruined if he fucked up and wrote something accidentally transphobic in a panel.
I don’t want to defend this song too much (it clearly has issues, namely making a cheap and fast choke about trans persons without reflecting the implications), but i also got the impression that it’s about FtM, so Bruce is his real name now and “Ex-Girlfriends” implies “persons that were his girlfriends in the past” – allowing the interpretation of “when Bruce and i were in a relationship, we both assumed that his sex/gender was female. Turned out we both were wrong”.
I’m not going to try to speak for the creators, but my impression was “I wanted to ask out this hot-looking woman, but when I got a chance to ask her out, it turned out she was a man named Bruce, and since I am a straight man, it wasn’t going to work out.” Doesn’t have to have any trans implications, just simple mistaken identity. If they meant otherwise, I have no idea.
True story- when I first had any exposure to trans issues, I asked my mother and she said “transsexuals are gay men who pretend to be women to sleep with other men.” No joke. It was backed up by the sort of media my parents consumed too.
Small wonder I needed to really distance myself from them before I could start my own transition…
A little joke is immediately transmisogyny. That’s a bit of a sad statement. Plus if you listen carefully, he sings “Bruce turned out to be a man” which is just a joke on Jemaine rather than on Bruce. Bruce is the manliest name there is is.
Well, yeah, jokes can be transphobic. Just like jokes can be racist or sexist or homophobic or ableist. In fact, jokes that are variations of that tend to be super common because they tend to become core “jokes” that are very easy to throw up for an easy laugh from a cisgender audience (and most of your audience can be presumed to be cis).
The “whoops, trans, lol, clearly a dude, right” joke is a very rehashed one, often because to people who don’t understand what they’re doing, it seems a silly visual to think of a woman who’s all dudely. It’s a cheap visual gag to “punch up” a bit and can be a way to lol at the protagonist who was so “dumb” or “unmanly” to sleep with a “man”.
And the thing is that this has genuine real life consequences. A huge number of the trans women murdered every year tend to be because a guy tried to “defend back” his masculinity after being attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman by murdering said trans woman to prove that he is still “manly” and was merely tricked by an evil deceiver. And jokes that reinforce that idea of “lol, you slept with a trans woman, ha ha” end up being a large part of why cis dudes who murder trans women feel they need to do that, because Bob damnitt, they’re not going to be made into a joke by some (slur for a gay man).
I know that makes me a bit of a killjoy to say, but how we shape humor matters a lot to how people are treated in the world.
I’m afraid you have me; I don’t think Becky has the philosophical inclination to point out that a god’s plan that includes threatening murder is a false god, and thus Ross and Carol are both apparently satanists.
I don’t disagree with your general stance, but I don’t see your rationale on threatening murder having anything to do with God being real or false. God could be real and just be a psychopath.
yeah, its odd how that sort of possibility doesn’t get traction.
Its either “loving god who has to do stuff we just dont understand” or “no god”.
“arsehole god”
“absent god”
“god who was just fucking about and we are all accidents”
“god who is allpowerfull but incompetent”
and “god who, you know, tries his best”
The problem is that this sect of Fundamentalist Christianity worships asshole God. They know God is down with killing, God has killed before, God has ordered killing before, and his wrath to stop Satan and sin is brutal and terrifying. These are the type of people who think God would send terrorists to bomb buildings or giant natural storms just to protest the number of abortion clinics or gay bars in a city or because a country has too many atheists.
They believe in a ticking time bomb of a deity and they’re just scrambling to stay on his good side before he hits the fuck-it switch and raptures up the only few who could cling to his long laundry list of hate and self-denial properly so they can be denied the shit-show of his orbital target practice against humanity and the demonic hordes.
Firstly I want to clarify that by “false god” I didn’t mean “no god”. Becky is probably still a christian and thus probably still believes in god. However as a fundie-raised christian, she was doubtlessly also raised to believe in the actual existence of other gods, who do exist but are wrong to follow: golden calves, Baal, Satan, rock & roll and so on. So anyway it’s entirely possible that the bad parents are worshiping something real, just something that’s not THE god and thus isn’t right.
And to Cerberus’s point I can only say that Joyce sure thought she believed in a decent god, and I doubt that she’d agree that her god endorses collateral damage or threats thereof in the pursuit of taking their child. (Heck, she probably doesn’t reeeeally buy into Deuteronomy 21:18-21’s explicit endorsement of murdering just the rebellious child.)
Which is not to say that Carol believes in the same god that Joyce does. It seems likely at this point that Joyce got some of her beliefs from her father, who similarly doesn’t appear to embrace the psychopathy that the bible is marbled with.
Who cares whether they’re a false god? Regardless of godhood, if you’re going to be an asshole, you deserve to be punished and have it explained to you exactly why you should stop.
Well, of course, she does, a murdered daughter simply goes to Heaven and we’re all going to Heaven soon thanks to the Rapture. Whereas a “sexual deviant” daughter will be thrown out of the kingdom of Heaven to suffer in Hell for all eternity due to her sin. And even her having a “sexual deviant” friend is a major risk because that friend could corrupt her enough to deny her her sweet meal ticket to the hereafter when the Rapture comes.
… and I really wish this was not literally what people like Carol frequently believe. And yes, it is terrifying to live around. Especially when you have the reputation as the “weird queer kinda atheist” kid.
There is no truer love then murdering all your babies the second they’re baptized, because only at that moment can you be sure they haven’t sinned again yet and imperiled their salvation.
Mormons have it easier – they can murder their kids anytime up until they kids are eight years old and the kid will be guaranteed the highest level of heaven. If they wait any longer than that they’re gambling with their kids’ souls, and is that really a risk they should be taking?
You and Cerberus, what you are talking about is something that irks me so, so deeply about religion. It’s painful to even think about. The fact that people don’t kill their newborns to make sure they get to heaven untainted though is something that confuses me. It makes me think they be hypocrites… I don’t know what makes me more angry, the fact that people say these things about what they believe and they don’t actually act on it, or that somewhere in their beliefs there is such a thing like this that they can justify it to themselves.
In other words:
If newborns are pure and sinless, why don’t the parents make sure they remain untainted and just “send them to heaven”? and;
Why is the religion written in such a way that people could present this as a reason to kill their children?
I can’t answer the first question, but as far as “why is the religion written in such a way”: You have to consider that the early adherents of this religion (if we’re talking strictly about the material from the Ancient Hebrew sources) lived a generally nomadic lifestyle, with few reliable, stationary resources – especially once you introduce the problem of migratory livestock and seasonal rains playing roles as primary resources. You can read plenty about the lifestyle here: http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/culture_nomads.html
To summarize, however: the tribe’s ability to function as a peaceful society of about 25-50 people, most of whom were related, was a responsibility that rested upon the shoulders of darn near everyone in it.
In such a situation, you would have had to consider how to collectively approach, manage, and survive the following problems:
⦁ (Poorly-understood) communicable diseases
⦁ The tangible resource cost of wastefulness
⦁ The inestimable cost of insubordination (up to and including “schism or collapse of the tribe”)
⦁ Conflicts with enemy tribes and predators
⦁ The dangers of slavers to individuals and the tribe as a whole
⦁ Hospitality towards non-enemies encountered while on the move (remember, the environment itself was basically hostile towards the ill-equipped, so a tribe that could provide shelter and sustenance was expected to do so, especially if it had a stable grip on its territory)
⦁ Behvaing in accordance with the superstitions accompanying the tribe’s religion, so as to avoid provoking a Wrath of God scenario
Given all of these and more variables, there was not really a whole lot of room for “well I don’t agree with your ideology, dad, so I’m going to do things MY way” within the tribe. Insubordination could very easily get you or someone else killed if you went against your elders, and it wouldn’t necessarily even be a scenario where anyone wanted it to happen; you could accidentally give a tactical advantage to an enemy tribe, or lose or destroy some or all of the tribe’s food or manufacturing resources, get the whole tribe sick, and so on and so forth.
Take that together with the notion of “religion-as-lifestyle-guide”, and the sort of ad-hoc-but-hand-me-down religion that encapsulated the majority of an average nomad’s basic understanding of the world, and it becomes clear why “because this is what God wants” might have been the explanation the tribe came up with for darn near everything they saw or imagined the need to have happen.
—
Of course, none of the above excuses child-killing in the modern age, but back then it would have been an acceptable option to prevent a possible disaster for the tribe. Nowadays, in our far more populous and stable society, individuals having a distorted and very-far-removed-from-context understanding of such ancient religions are the primary reason that beliefs such as the ones begbert and Cerberus mention are even possible.
And unfortunately, this is a better explanation for the behavior of modern “Christian” believers than for Mormons.
The comment above was written in haste. Comment in haste, regret at leisure.
What I should’ve said is: generally-speaking, atheists in America are really only familiar with Christianity, and a lot of the things that we hate about “religion” are actually kind of unique to it.
Not all of them. But a lot.
And while we tend to know no more about Judaism than we do about, say, Shintoism, we think we do, because we “know” the Old Testament. And we believe, wrongly, that it’s “basically the Jewish Bible”.
I was totally in that exact same place, for most of my life. The only Jewish people I had ever met were atheists. (And since it’s, y’know, an ethno-religion, very much unlike Christianity, there are a lot of Jewish atheists.) Only very recently have I started talking to Jewish people about Judaism, and antisemitism, and so on.
:\ So I took this very superior tone with you, and it wasn’t at all warranted, and I’m sorry about that. If it helps at all, my tone was not really about you. Reading your comment made me really mad at myself, and what I used to think I knew. That plus the fact that I was running out the door… yeah. It’s not a great defense, and again I’m sorry. I’d delete the original comment if I could.
Hey, Li, just want you to know that at least one person did see your first reply… But also has now seen the reply to the reply, which clears up a lot, and also contains what I think of as a proper apology.
As someone who really hates non-apology apologies, I’m really happy for that second reply. And the first reply is, in my head-canon, considered to never have happened.
Li, saw both your replies. The nesting feature of this comment system abruptly slamming into the right margin and screwing everyone’s comprehension of it up past a certain level of hierarchy unfortunately makes it unclear whether you were replying to me or not, but presuming that you were, all I have to say is this:
I wasn’t commenting on Judaism specifically. Rather, I was commenting on the common “Christian” understanding of the material borrowed from it, and the distortions of it that have become commonplace since Christianity co-opted and disseminated that admittedly limited range of material.
I would also like to point out that I was not engaging in high scholarly discourse. I was simply making note of the fact that the common practitioners of religions that have survived from ancient times, in particular those of Christianity, have many reasons why their perspective might be too far removed from their religion’s original context to have a functional understanding of some of its historical tenets, or even of its related anecdotes.
That said, I am in no position to be pedagogical about Judaism, and would love to hear you elaborate on the topic if you so desire.
My intent was to provide a reference to a resource that I felt was reliable enough for basic discourse on the lifestyle from which it arose. I’m sorry if I’ve failed in any regard.
Then Willis speaks, in the loving words of Andrius:
“I will re-unite [her] broken family. I will give them all the hope in this world. I will bring peace and love into their hearts… Then I will destroy them. And, truly, a sheep’s meat is sweeter when it is blindly led to greener pastures. Fear and suffering only sours it. Do you not feel the hope up there on the ship’s deck? This vessel is drowning in it. Let these humans marinate in their hope. The most delicious meal of [my] life awaits,” says Willis as he prepares to feast on our happiness as our empty husks begin to whither.
I’m honestly wondering how likely it is that Joyce’s mom and dad will still be together in five years. Sure, Hank was not terribly nice about Dorothy at first, but HE got over it, and he’s certainly racking up the points so far since his return. How similar ARE he and Carol at this point, anyway? Is it possible that only doctrine has really been keeping them together?
Actually I picked that up from other sites’ comments sections which use that particular font for sarcasm, but I really wouldn’t be opposed to the idea of a Slipshine anthology with the forty/fiftysomethings.
You made me think of something. Didn’t they have a Kama Sutra in some other comic? If that’s ‘canon’ here, you could blow that up to mean that their sex life is actually terrible, and they were looking for ways to ‘spice it up’. From there, it’s a short leap to ‘they were already having marriage problems’. Then again, sex isn’t everything, and this is an awful lot of assumption.
Two adults in a marriage are not in the same place on a highly charged issue, very complicated from their theological background, that might well have rocked their church community just a week ago.
Yes, it COULD be a problem. No, it’s not a significant indication that the marriage is on the rocks. After all, we’ve seen how Hank processes theological differences with Joyce, and I’m sure he’s capable of doing something similar with Carol.
Depends on the church really. Most of the mainstream ones are OK with it,
although many disapprove on it in principle.
Basically the more fundamentalist/evangelical you go, the more disapproving they get , until you get the churches (even quite mainstream ones) that will do anything to prevent it and ignore familial abuse and convince wives to stay with abusive partners when they go to the pastors for help. And then you get the totally bat shit insane ones like the quiverful movement.
Speaking as someone who used to be involved with the Ray Comfort strain of Protestantism, it’s generally frowned upon and only allowed because divorces are handled by secular government courts.
I think he is saying that since Joyce is autobiographical and Willis’ parents got divorced, there is a pretty good chance that Joyce’s parents also get divorced.
I think the issue is that the threat to their daughter provoked very different reactions from the two parents: Hank is seeing the incident as a positive sign about his daughter’s environment (because the people around Joyce basically pulled together and resolved a dangerous situation) and had his faith in the Christian community shaken severely by one of their own going off the deep end. Carol felt the same spike of fear for Joyce, but reacted by wanting to pull her daughter back in and blames the decision to “let” her go outside the community as the reason Joyce was ever in danger in the first place (essentially she’s still thinking that she’s the parent, and it’s her fault for letting her daughter wander into danger).
The conflict is _expressing_ as an argument over Becky, but I think the root of it is that they’ve spent twenty years married to someone they thought was their soul-mate in every respect, and they’re just now realizing on a subconscious level that they are actually very different people in outlook. Like, by disagreeing over how to parent their daughter, they’re disagreeing over something that they both consider more important than their marriage, and that in itself is screwing things up even more.
(Apparently my life story is making me the divorce-whisperer of the comments section. Go figure.)
No no, just imagine that all the good and accepting things about her all went straight to her butt. Just like how anything decent about Toedad went to his chin.
When Blaine was after Amber, I really wanted him to get waylaid by Mike’s parents, who would be so unfailingly and aggressively polite that he wouldn’t be able to find her.
The problem is that a large cast of characters needs variety and good parents don’t provide that. All happy families are alike. Each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.
Yeah… there’s a very good reason Joyce hasn’t even thought about mentioning that one to her parents. That community tends to have… “interesting” views about the “morality” of girls who get raped or almost raped.
I’m not sure Joyce has thought that far. Her only comment was a worry about pulling her out of school. We haven’t even seen any signs that she’s internalized that idea. We’ve certainly seen the denial and her PTSD/fear of being attacked again.
I don’t think she’s thinking about that consciously, but I think she’s probably internalized it. It’s probably a big part of why she is so strongly in denial about admitting it ever happened. “Nice girls” don’t go to parties, they don’t be alone with boys and they definitely don’t get date-raped.
(Survivor of childhood sexual assault, who has been told in exactly so many words by my father that “every victim contributes one very important thing to the situation without which an assault couldn’t happen: herself.” and that “it’s nice to say rape is wrong but when are we going to talk about every person’s responsibility for their own safety?” and that “some of these girls go around wearing so little, it’s like sticking a steak out in front of a dog. Is it any wonder bad stuff happens?” and so on and so forth. See also yet another reason why I rarely visit my folks and am just this side of estranged from them. Because I am tired of being blamed for something I was absolutely 0% at fault for.)
Anyway, to that camp, anything short of an attacker ambushing you from the bushes in broad daylight while you’re walking to church with a large group of friends in a baggy blob of a wholesome modest outfit and beating the shit out of you as you fight back like a rabid honey badger isn’t “legitimate” and you’re “partly responsible” for it. It’s all personal responsibility don’tchakno. If you didn’t “want” to be raped, why didn’t you fight back? Why were you there? Why were you wearing that? Why didn’t you say no? You did say no, why didn’t you scream? why didn’t you fight? Why didn’t you raise a fuss? Okay, why didn’t you raise more of a fuss? I could go on.
I am sadly not exaggerating at all. I got grilled like that, and I was eight on my way to school on the school bus when I was assaulted for the time I disclosed. The situations since then, I’ve normally not told anyone about because I’ve been through it once and I don’t need the extra trauma of having everything I did and said and wore examined under a microscope to see whether I’m a “victim” or a victim-victim. It’s just, words fail me to describe how utterly awful it is to go to someone for help and have that person play Monday morning quarterback with your life and basically tell you that the bad thing that happened to you was your fault and if you’d just done [thing you were unable to do at the time], it wouldn’t have happened. And then act like you’re the unreasonable one when you get upset about it.
Same group also acts like if a person does fight an attacker off or avoid an attack from a creeper, that should be viewed as 100% good and they’re not allowed to be scared or traumatized by it at all. See, me fighting off a dude who tried to grab me in the parking lot on my way back to res at uni (after seeking help from security because he was following me all over campus and basically being told that they’d deal with it when he did something “real”) should be viewed as a triumph because “nothing bad” happened. Like being stalked, dismissed, ridiculed and then violently attacked for reasons unknown is “nothing bad” and I should just let it roll off me because I was able to “take responsibility” for my safety (by being a second degree black belt, which had required years of training and preparation) and fight them off. But thing is, and Willis gets this but so many people don’t: a close call is still fucking terrifying. It’s still traumatizing. It’s still an assault. It still makes you feel ashamed and humiliated and nauseous and dirty and terrible. It’s still something that can give you nightmares and make it hard to walk through that parking lot at that same time of day. But the folks in that camp, they’ll either blame the victim, or they act like the victim’s not a victim at all because they were able to get out of the situation before the sexual assault became a rape. Even the cops and security people are like that – I have a friend who did report to the cops in my city after she was sexually assaulted, and the cop taking her report told her, “I’m sorry that happened to you but I don’t understand why you didn’t do anything. I could never let a man rape me like that.” And, for me, I didn’t report the parking lot thing because I just knew I was going to get, “So if the guy was creeping you out, why did you walk out alone?” and I knew that “I waited in the library for over an hour and had no luck getting a security escort because they apparently don’t want to baby ‘little girls who are scared of the dark’ and I couldn’t stay there all night and I didn’t see him out there so I figured he’d given up and left” was going to be judged “good” enough to be a proper victim rather than some irresponsible slut who wasn’t exercising good judgement. And I just wasn’t in a headspace to deal with the judgement and derision and disgust. I had enough of my own going on.
My guess is Joyce is asking herself all those terrible blamey questions, too, and second-guessing her actions and re-running what happened that night in her head over and over and I’m guessing she has been since it happened. I’m also guessing she’s not in a headspace where she can take hearing them from anyone else which is part why she’s keeping it so quiet. And I’m guessing she especially doesn’t want the crowing, smug “Good for you! I hope you gave him what he deserved! See, this is what happens when someone refuses to be a victim!” treatment. Annndyeah.
Not sure where I’m going with this, just I hate the “let’s put the victim on trial” mentality we have, and I also hate the “don’t let yourself be a victim” talk because depending on who it’s employed against it’s gaslighting or blaming the victim and in either case it’s terrible and entirely not okay. I hate that “legitimate rape” is a phrase that exists in common vernacular. And I really hate this idea that there are “good” victims and there are “victims” and a “good” victim isn’t actually a victim because they fought and screamed and should be instead called a “survivor” or something similarly pseudo-empowering which can be used to dismiss and belittle their trauma, and a “victim” isn’t actually a victim because they brought it on themselves and deserved it.
Ugh. Talking about sexual assault makes me want to burn everything. I’m gonna go look at photos of cats being adorably silly now.
Oh my word, all of this. So much all of this. And it’s infuriating how prevalent the victim-blaming culture is and how much it’s ramped up in “traditional morality” cultures.
Also? *all the ginormous appropriate gestures of support* You are awesome and I know how much it takes to talk about stuff like that, so just thank you for that.
It is honestly difficult to read your story. It is hard to know what is worse: The assaults and rapes themselves; or the fact that “everyone” around you ended up basically tolerating and condoning those assaults. The latter is what allows the former to keep on happening. They try to make you less than human; which really is the biggest sin of all.
That you are even … (gods, the words “somehow functional” is so despicable in some ways, but it’s the best I have at the moment)… in a society that time and again has spat on you is… Well, “amazing” doesn’t even start to cover it.
You deserve so much better than just having strangers telling you these things. What you deserve is… Well, if I could give you proper, true, peace of mind, I would in a heartbeat.
Oh, I’ve had her squarely in the “bad parent” camp since the phone call.
And Cerberus is right, the woman does tend to get blamed for anything sexual in fundamentalist communities. I’d elaborate, but those stories aren’t really mine to tell. Suffice to say that I know of parents who’ve blamed their own daughters.
But Joyce’s Dad surprised me. Maybe her Mom will too. Maybe.
What the hell kind of mom sees her recently-held-at-gunpoint daughter for the first time since the trauma, and RAIN CHECKS on a hug? “Glad you’re alive but this casserole is more important”
Because that’s pretty mega bongo to me. Especially after her daughter stood up to her on the phone. Her response is to withhold affection. BON-GO.
When you’re married with two children and don’t have the emotional strength to break off the relationship and double down on self-loathing while still falling into your prescribed role as parent, spouse and het partner.
Yeah, it’s always too soon to know for certain or so late it must be fake because if it was real you would know for certain. Bonus points if the same person is using both at the same time (one of my parents did that once, it was… boggling to say the least).
It is like space travel. There is a narrow little window, and you have to move at exactly the right time, at just the right angle, with the perfect amount of thrust …
When you walk upon the moor at a quarter past midnight and the heralds do proclaim through sky and yonder that yes, “thou art gay as fuck” and lo, the heron’s beak doth open revealing the complementary rainbow pin and free toaster and lo, it is officially proclaimed, thou art a lesbian.
The real question is when are you allowed to be unsure? Cuz a question like Carol’s would make me go on the defensive reeeeal quick.
I’m very happy that Becky can confidently say what her sexuality is in her late teens (as many of the commenters could apparently) but I feel like it almost undercuts how fucking awful Carol’s line of questioning is. Becky should be allowed to be unsure of her sexuality without a third-person loudly second guessing, and she should be allowed to feel upset and conflicted about her father, and Carol is denying her both of those in one go.
I am in my late 20s and couldn’t really say what my sexuality was until a couple years ago. In part because of the are you SURE/how do you KNOW mindfuckery.
This: and I was trying to cement my identity as somewhere just barely to the right of a Heterosexual (cis man), wherein I can appreciate Thor’s abs; because– have you seen those abs?
The rock-hard abs aside my point is that if I, in searching for my identity, and finding it to be what is considered in bounds of “the norm,” received enough unwarranted “mindfuckery” comments about it that I eventually needed to say, “Listen and hear you little shits. Shut up.” to any and all who continued to poke fun only to be told “they’re just jokes,” I can’t begin to fathom the sort of painful douche-baggery people who find themselves to be anything but heterosexual and cis have to deal with.
And that is just the verbal and mental component of it. The fact is, that I was privileged enough to never be physically assaulted because of my identity. It never got past “jokes” for me (about this subject– I got physically assaulted for other things, just not being hetero and cis). Jokes that ain’t jokes. The abusive and borderline abusive remarks designed to undermine what little security I have in my identity because they’ve been insulting me by calling me a girl and a gay for years (which aren’t really even insults: they just hurt like it because it’s not what I am), because I act in a flamboyant and effeminate manner.
So yeah, this, this’s horse and the horse this’s horse rode in on.
Personally? I think everyone should be allowed to be unsure and even pick an identity they feel best fits them even if there’s a more accurate one they find later that better suits where they are. Sometimes it’s like clothes and you have to try on a few to find the best fit.
But that’s for the person themselves. From the outside, you just accept wherever they are now and roll with it and keep your sass shut and never make comments like Carol’s that imply one’s identity to be a phase or that they are “wrong” and will figure out the “right” one with prodding. In large parts because of things like ischemgeek’s comments about how much that messes with a young kid just trying to figure themselves out with little to no guideposts.
With my students who are figuring themselves out, I’m a big fan of listening to them describe what they’re feeling and then give them a combination of more general resources that cover a lot of different identities as well as one’s that are written directly by people who share similar life experiences to what they’re describing.
I then tend to tell them that they don’t need to pick an identity if they don’t want to and it’s okay to be wrong about an identity and have to change it anyways and that we at the school will respect it no matter what. It’s seemed to have good effects so far.
It’s almost like identifying yourself primarily by your sexual preferences and behavior isn’t really a healthy way to go about building your identity, and adulthood is mostly the state of realizing you can’t really answer that question, but it doesn’t really matter.
If only there were a couple widespread religions that stood as massive historical examples of how badly training people to continue to focus on that as one of the fundamental building blocks of your ego well into your old age can go…
It’s almost as if not defining yourself primarily by your sexual preferences and behavior is really fucking hard when you get thrown out of school for it and your dad threatens you and your friends with a gun because of it.
Sometimes it’s the world that’s primarily defining you and all you can do is take it up as a badge of defiance.
This. If you don’t define yourself centrally as your identities, then the world will do it for you. When I first came out, I thought my transness was incidental, because I had good supportive friends and was in a strong supportive culture. Society quickly had other opinions about that when I came home to the States and coming out to more people. That’s when I learned that from now on my transness was all anyone was going to see for a loooooong while.
Unless of course you’re straight and cis – and probably white and male as well, in which case it’s easy to not define yourself as those things. You can think of yourself in other terms and not even realized you’ve been defined in way that let’s you do so.
You would think so, but it turns out that Cis Maleness is so incredibly fragile you have to defend it at all times. (“You hit like a girl” “You have not had sex at age 18, are you homo?”. “Since I’m a boy I can’t own more than one pair of shoes”). So yeah, not defining yourself in terms of sexuality and gender is pretty hard wherever you stand.
Well yeah, then you’re a person and can be anything… except exhibiting traits that can be mistaken as girly. If you do that, then you’re an honorary girl and all your uniqueness will be taken away lest you make a sacrifice of toxicity to demonstrate your right to be treated as a full person again.
I think that was the real subtext with Joe upbraiding Danny for turning Billie down. He is supposed to be a man and real men don’t turn down sex without a good reason.
There’s a lot of that. I got hit by that a lot when I was a baby ace and still thought I was a man. It was, real men droll over women all the time and want to describe them as meat. You’re not doing that. What’s wrong with you?
Well, duh, she was relentlessly and unapologetically gay. Everyone knows that that sends secret mind-control rays out that cause people to grab their firearms and kidnap their children at gunpoint. This is like Fundie Science 101, people!
Yup, his “heart was in the right place” and the terrorist murdery bits is just their “passion taken to far” and “picking bad methods”, but it’s really understandable and heroic and…
I agree. I guess I am lucky in that my parents are accepting of my brother and my sexualities. I really hope the dad starts to tell her off and then Joyce butts in and really chews into her mom.
Which is probably not true, in addition to being logically specious. Let’s be honest, aggravated felonies don’t come out of nowhere, if Toedad wasn’t already a violent criminal there’s no way it wasn’t just a matter of time.
Hank’s comments about wanting to punch the guy even before the incident speaks to a wealth of warning signs on that one that had nothing to do with lesbians.
I was going to say something similar. We live far away enough that she seldom sees her family… Which I think means she’s mostly flown under the radar.
I suspect that changed after her behaviour at my wedding, though. I won’t know since that’s when I cut ties.
So, after reading the last few days’ comics, and thinking of how Joyce is supposed to be autobiographical, and then remembering some of the stories Willis has told before, it occurred to me that Hank was likely the good parent, and it would be Joyce’s mom who’d turn out to be the toxic one.
“My client pleads not guilty due to homosex, your honor!”
“Homosex?”
“Yes, in accordance with Article 6.9, which covers the gayitude of progeny.”
“Very well, case dismissed.”
That’s misdemeanor having a gay daughter at worst. A few extra months in low-security, tops. Unless there was a strap-on involved, in which case it’s aggravated having a gay daughter, which is much more srs.
It’s just that with all the joking about the passage of time I don’t recall comparisons of seconds passing in the comic (as opposed to days, weeks, months and years) prior to this day.
Can’t wait to see where this goes. Joyce’s mom always struck a nerve with me when she was first introduced. What she doesn’t seem to understand is that it’s Becky’s dad fault he’s in prison not Becky. And if she can’t understand that then she’s just as bad as her father.
She’s not trying to understand anything. She’s simply deciding that whichever parts of reality agree with scripture must be correct.
Her internal reasoning goes something like this:
“Becky deciced to be a lesbian, but the bible says homosexuality is wrong. Ross tried to save her from homosexuality, but was stopped and sent to jail. Therefore Ross is in jail because Becky decided to be a lesbian.”
Close, but considerin’ they don’t seem to be very good at turning the other cheek or loving their neighbor, I’m gonna assume that it’s “whichever parts of reality agree with what I’ve heard scripture says must be correct.”
This is actually my problem with fundamentalist christians; their religion seems to be less about following the teachings of christ and more about worshipping Paul, the Man Who Knew Jesus Better than People Who Actually Met Him. The big man himself never said a damn thing about homosexuality in any of the gospels written by people who knew him.
Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished!”
… Wasn’t the entire point of Christ dying that he released humanity from original sin and formed a new covenant with God, negating the old one so y’all wouldn’t be committing cardinal sin by worshiping him instead of Him?
Because I’m pretty sure that quote was about the nine lines at the beginning of that speech, not about how every part of Leviticus you people normally ignore is fully in effect. Especially given that fulfilling the covenant has been the presumed reason for Christ’s death and ascension unto heaven for thousands of years of doctrine.
Maybe I’m confused because I was raised Jewish, but I thought that was a big deal for you. With your blended fabrics and your tattoos and your bacon-wrapped lobster burgers with cheese.
Also, MALE homosexuality is the one that people argued was sinful. Ruth and Naomi were perfectly acceptable in the eyes of God back before Paul got involved.
Becky, the correct response is “No, it’s not but it was his discison to be an asshole about it, pull a gun and get himself arrested, not mine, just like it’s yours to be one right now. I don’t control his life and I’m going to let him control mine, nor will I let you do the same. Good day!” and walk off to stunned silence
that kind of makes me wonder what’s going to happen with the macintyre house (i assume there is a house, anyway), depending on how long ross is in prison. can’t pay mortgage while you’re in jail, after all. does the state/bank automatically impound houses of prisoners if they’re going “away” for a while?
but anyway, for the weekend, presumably becky could crash at her old house if things get excessively awkward at casa brown, and at least she could grab some of her belongings before heading back up so she’d have more than literally the clothes on her back.
But she might not have ownership of it, so that might not be her choice to make. Does anyone happen to know what happens to the property of an incarcerated person? Does ownership naturally fall to closest relative or does ownership transfer to the state or is it just kept in the name of the incarcerated person so it theoretically could go back to them after incarceration?
Which if it’s the last one, I don’t think Toedad is in a mood to transfer ownership of the house to Becky. Maybe the Church and I’m sure the Church is circling to protect at least his valuables and keepsakes like old photo albums, while he endures the indignity of his “unjust” imprisonment.
I’d really hope it’s the last. I’m pretty sure a typical sentence doesn’t include “And confiscate all their property.” Or even pass to a relative. If you had a 6 month term or something, you shouldn’t lose everything you own over it.
In theory, it would be easy enough to arrange a property manager through the lawyer to rent it out, assuming he’s sentenced to a long enough term to make it worthwhile.
Nothing on that front’s likely to have happened yet though. It’s only been a couple of days. Becky likely has a key or knows where the spare is hidden, so it would be easy enough for her to go there.
i mean, even IF he’s put away for umptymillion years (unlikely), i’m pretty sure “next of kin” only applies if he’s actually dead, so it’s not like ownership of the house would automatically pass over to becky once he hits the big house–assuming he even goes to jail, and i wish i had enough faith in the justice system that that would be something i could count on as a thing that would happen.
anyway, becky does arguably have a home, for now, although as had been pointed out she can’t exactly trust the neighbors. so imo her best bet is to use the weekend to get a head start on packing up whatever belongings she wants to keep and add their transport/storage to the list of things she has to do to stabilize her situation. that being said, stuff is just stuff, so income and living situation are/should be at the top of her priorities. but maybe her birth certificate/social security card are somewhere in her childhood home, depending on ross’s filing habits.
Alternatively: Yes, I can be sure about myself as an adult, and yes, it was worth it to maneuver my dad safely into prison, where he’ll have years to think about how he strayed from the path of righteousness, instead of allowing him to escalate things further and die pointlessly in front of a SWAT team. If you’d been there, when someone was aiming a gun at your daughter, I hope you would have done the same.
Wow, so gay people are into witchcraft AND voodoo? Talk about multi-talented.
(I’m joking, of course. I feel I shouldn’t have to point it out, but I’ve seen people say terrible things in the comments both sarcastically and straight-faced, so sometimes I can’t tell the difference anymore. If you find this parenthetical insulting to your intelligence, then I am truly sorry.)
Honestly, that’s one thing I learned from the people I grew up with and my parents. In the eyes of bigots, queer people are frikkin’ badass!
Like, mind-controlling magic powers that can change orientations and gender identities, power to cause environmental disasters, able to shatter entire institutions and bring great nations to their knees. In the mind of bigots, we are Gods dancing among mere mortals…
Shame that in reality we’re just marginalized people trying to love and live in peace.
What would really be awesome would be if it were the other way around. Secret unsuspected superpowers and no reason to be picked on because meh, sex weirdos. Sex is weird period, duh.
The thing about homo-sorcery is that it’s a heck of a lot stronger than any hetero-wizardry. Hell, if you ask some people, it even outmatches bi-spellcraft and pan-stidigitation.
We don’t talk about the forbidden texts. Those spells are too dark, too uncontrollable, too powerful. They must be hidden in the dungeon with the Aceonomicon
Carol’s projecting her own fears about Joyce (which are probably up to 11 what with the gun-waving) onto the standard target of the secular world. She’s clearly further down the rabbit hole than Hank, and that’s a pretty standard mentality for someone whose loyalty to a group is primarily the result of brainwashing (which is not unusual in monolithic Christian communities).
The alternative is to admit that she has no real ability to protect her daughter and that the faith offers no actual safe haven from the world’s dangers (and in this case can actually come from within the community).
None of that makes her not a shitty person, but it’s at least understandable why she’s being a shitty person. And kind of sad, since there’s… not really a lot of ways to fix what’s wrong with her.
Maybe not the best comic to ask this on, but I’m actually here when everyone else is, and I have a question:
Other people mentioned a mobile site a week or so ago. I can’t find one. I just get the normal site when coming to dumbingofage.com, and Google didn’t mention anything.
Is it a Patreon only thing? Does it require an app? It would be so nice to have a webcomic that works well on mobile–none of my favorites seem to have one.
That she’s smiling while saying that is intensely creepy. She might as well turn her head all the way around to look at Becky without shifting her body.
It’s a rather common thing with a certain kind of bad parents. You insinuate/accuse someone of being an awful/useless person, but “politely;”then, when the child reacts with (understandable) anger, say something along the lines of, ” see, now you’re being disrespectful to your mother!” …I mean, that’s, uh, that’s what I’ve been told happens.
Yup. “How dare you be so disrespectful and rude?” and so on. So you just weather it all until you can’t and then it’s all “oh, if this was really bothering you, why didn’t you say anything, clearly you’re just trying to manipulate us”.
And inside, all you do is internalize everything until you genuinely do believe that everything’s your fault and you deserve it for being born the way you are…
N-not like I can speak from personal experience on that one or nothing. Heh heh.
A related concept is “You will keep your voice down, the neighbors will hear you!” Regardless of the fact you’ve had to raise your voice because they’re shouting over everything you say.
Ouch. I’m sorry you have experience with that kind of awful parent, too, but the way you’ve described it is bang on. Needle needle needle while implying terrible things, wait until you hit your breaking point, and then act the victim, making a big show of how terrible you are and what a saint they are.
Good point. Carol knows from Joyce’s phone message where she stands with Becky, so she probably didn’t want to berate Becky right when she and Joyce walked through the door.
That doesn’t, however, preclude Carol later suggesting to Joyce that she shouldn’t hang around with that “sinner” of a best friend anymore.
That’s how that kind of emotional abuser works. Gets you alone, needles you when you’re alone acting the gracious saint while anyone else is around. They keep poking at your sore spots until you explode, and then they turn around and play the victim the moment everyone else gets in.
And it works. Because people don’t see them provoking you, they just see the explosion. And even if you know that’s what they’re trying to do, they are very good at provoking the kind of explosion they want, and very good at finding the sore points that will provoke an explosion even if you know it’s playing into their hands.
It’s that fundie gender roles thing we were talking about during the Gender Studies class strips. The woman is not allowed to directly enforce the rules because that would be defying gender roles. So everything needs to be super passive-aggressive and with a patina of “niceness” so that it’s just “keeping order in the house” rather than defying one’s proper owner.
Which is why I’m so intrigued by Hank. He’s way outside that playbook (letting his daughter call the shots?!), and here’s Carol still in full your-father-must-define-you-shame-on-you-for-stepping-outside-that mode.
Yesss, far too much niceness as of late so its good to see the drama back (and don’t say you don’t like the drama)
But on a more serious note its strange, to me, to this happening as growing up my mom was basically awesome, like you’d imagine all moms would be and my dad was…less so
It’ll be great to see Hank defending Becky eventually. …On that note, it’s nice to, how do I put this…. It’s nice to see the dad being not useless AND the supportive one. Sure, he’s a fundie, which in this sort of thing is synonymous with ‘flawed’ but it’s made clear he has a good heart, good intentions, and is at least willing to keep what judgments he may have to himself for the sake of Becky and his daughter.
And the whole “pray to the lord for guidance” thing seems to have worked, so there’s that in his favor. In contrast, Joyce’s mother has had a weird undercurrent of offputting fundamentalism from the beginning. Not WBC-ish 24/7, god no, just a weird, casual, ingrained fundamentalism that makes her think that Toedad sending his daughter to what’s basically a torture camp is justified.
Welp, Joyce-mom is…more terrible than the dad. I mean, I shouldn’t be suprised, but after they both responded with equal levels of terribleness to Dorothy I was hopeful.
Mine came also from phone call with Joyce. Because even as an atheist myself, I can forgive socially-engrained prejudice in a person (and hooooboy does the Fundie community ever have socially-engrained prejudice) if they at least try to polite in my presence. Because if I didn’t have that forgiveness, I’d have to be a fuckload harder on past-me, plus it’d be a lot harder for me to function in my region.
[casually anti-atheist things are said on the daily around here – I’ve heard it all. I’m going to hell, I am incapable of feeling wonder or awe, I have no light in my world, I am an amoral animal, there’s nothing stopping people like me from going on a massacre, Hitler was like me, atheism is why Russia became so totalitarian, atheism is why the Holocaust happened, could go on. Likewise with biphobia (apparently I, a person who goes clubbing approximately never, am only in it for attention from the straight dudebros at bars) and ableism – people like me should be institutionalized, are incapable of empathy or emotion, are tsunamis, have black mirrors instead of eyes, don’t have souls, are animals, etc. Thick skin as survival mechanism, go. Trans folk and non-white folk living in white-dominant regions also know what I’m talking about here – gotta know when to pick your battles for your own sake more than anything else].
So when Carol did at least attempt polite when it became evident Hank wasn’t going to insist on dragging Joyce off after she rebelled, given what most fundies are taught to think of atheists, I was cautiously optimistic.
Then the phone call happened.
That one was a tough one for me because it threw me right back to being 8 and getting re-victimized by asshole parents who are fucking determined to reframe everything that happens to their kids as being all about them. Cuz that’s what Carol did. Toedad going around with a gun isn’t about how Joyce and Becky were traumatized at that point in the conversation, it’s all about Carol and what a loving devoted martyr she is.
And I am entirely too familiar with that response to a disclosure of trauma. It sucks.
And IME, people who have that impulse to take your trauma and reframe it as being about how they would’ve been Big Damn Heroes or Devoted Martyrs or whatever are both nowhere near as brave/devoted as they talk themselves up to be and generally assholes. So the moment Carol did that I was like, “…awfuck. She’s one of those.“
And especially the part where the parent figures expects you to either praise them for their martyrdom or apologize for your role “thrusting this upon them” instead of actually getting some emotional support for awful things happening to you. Throw in a fair amount of “actually, that’s totally your fault for being X”s and you just start to bottle up every awful thing and assume you deserve it and are just inherently toxic to be around.
Yeah, this. Or “Have you tried [suggestion that basically amounts to not being you]?”
Like, “Well, I know the other kids make fun of you, but if you’d try to fit in a bit more, they’d probably like you!” or, “You should try to act a bit more like the other kids. People are a bit nervous of people who seem a bit too different and that’s why they’re making fun of you.” or, “We need to get you into speech therapy so kids will quit making fun of your stutter!” (erm, not saying speech therapy is a bad thing, but rather that focus of speech therapy should be “giving Kid tools for making effective communication happen” not “make kid able to emulate normal sufficiently to pass”) or whatever.
Or, worse, when they express it as concern. “I know you like weather, sweetie, but science camp isn’t really something girls go to very often. I’m just worried you’ll get made fun of, that’s all. Why don’t we send you to bible camp with your sister instead?”
Which is still basically “don’t be you because you is wrong” only dressed up prettier.
I went through so many variations of that shit. So many “X awful thing wouldn’t happen if you were more ‘careful’ and weren’t trying to shove it in everyone’s faces”.
Oh hell yes. The amount of times I got told that I wouldn’t get bullied if I only TRIED to fit in, or that it was my own fault because I DIDN’T try, was… Well, about the same amount of times my parents knew something happened or was happening.
Just fuck that noise.
Right, I forgot that he was a bit more open-minded there.
Hank’s more three-dimensional than Carol so far, and I’m definitely looking forward to seeing her thinking fleshed out. I mean, she’s nasty, but it’ll be interesting to see why she’s nasty.
Eh, with a fundie upbringing, it isn’t really that complicated. Being a devout Christian means you are so much better than everyone else. As a woman, being passive aggressive is about the only control you have over a situation. When you are strong-willed, as Carol apparently is, being forced into being submissive can be very frustrating, and that negativity expresses itself externally. But since she sees herself as submitting, she can tell herself she’s still better than all those horrible sinners.
Linda Walkerton isn’t doing too well on the “How to be a decent mom” test. The awful moms are just overshadowed by the worst two dads. (Blaine and Ross of course)
I guess I’m just holding Naomi, Carol and Linda to a higher standard with the use of the word “villainous” since they cause problems for a few select individuals in their lives whereas Mary targets anyone that offends her sensibilities (and goes out of her way to do so).
At least that’s what I thought I was doing several hours ago.
Welp, she sure didn’t disappoint now did she?
How in Hell can someone be that totally insensitive? Like maybe a, “how are you Becky, did your father hurt you when he gunnapped you? Where are you living? How are you eating?
Oh, never mind, it’s Carol Brown.
Even more fucked up because the incident in question is also one in which her father pointed a gun at Joyce, Carol’s daughter. So the incident isn’t just making it all about how Becky’s sinning ways ruined everything, but also actively dismissing or worse blaming Becky for the pain and misery thrust upon her own daughter as well.
Which hasn’t already been running through Becky’s head anyway. Not in an “I am evil” way, but in her plan to escape from Toedad and then go hide and not come back because she’d put her friends in danger.
Was she even THINKING about the consequences of her actions when he calmly walked up to her best friends mom and SMILED? What did she expect! It’s entirely her fault that Mrs Brown reacted that way.
I tried to be sympathetic to her character, but she OBVIOUSLY just has NO impulse control.
Jeez, way to take your best friend with you on your Nuke Them From Orbit tour, Becky.
Are you being serious right now? First of all, I’m pretty sure Mrs. Brown can’t even see what expression is on Becky’s face. Second of all, no, it’s really not at all her fault that Mrs. Brown reacted this way. Mrs. Brown is completely wrong. Homophobia notwithstanding, it’s not Becky’s fault that her dad is in jail, it’s HIS fault for pulling a gun on her and abducting her.
er, I think tangled_y is joking, Carriethedragon. There were a lot of comments like this about Becky in previous comics, so this is definitely a parody of those. “calmly” and “SMILED” being the most obvious indicators of why this is most probably a joke/satire.
It was very well played and an excellent bit of satire of that sort of victim-blaming that tends to happen when Becky is victimized or in threat of being victimized in some way.
I’m assuming that that’s biting sarcasm. Think before you smile, blaming her for other people’s actions and the choice of capitalized words seem to indicate humor… but some other people I’m talking with seemed to read it as serious.
There probably IS someone intentionally escalating things, though.
Not Becky, Hank. He knew damned well when he invited her to stay the weekend exactly what his wife’s reaction was going to be, and he’s intentionally picking a fight. Hell, it’s probably a fight that’s been going on for a while and he’s trying to outnumber her so he can ‘win’.
Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, some fights need to be fought. Maybe a bit of a dick move to drag Becky into a spousal argument that probably links to something much deeper in the relationship, though.
Becky invited herself, he agreed after a bit of hesitation. And mentioned calling ahead to ‘warn’ his wife. Presumably to keep things as smooth as possible or even tell her directly to ‘be nice’, not to escalate. Picking a fight seems a bit of a stretch, but for a man who’s been doing some extra soul-searching and growth lately, perhaps he is hoping for the same opportunities for Carol through this experience.
Well, then clearly the evil secular Anti-Christ goons would let him go, recognizing that his holy purity is too strong for them and has saved their advance scout from her unholy corruption to test the faith of his home community. Duh.
I can understand why people would take Ross’s side. It’s a “higher calling” to “preserve right thinking.” You know, a lot of bullshit, but seductive for people afraid of change or looking for someone to blame for their problems.
I’m not sure I would call it taking Ross’s side. It’s not that she approves of what Ross did, especially to her own daughter.
It’s that she blames the “godless heathen” for his wrong actions. It’s a defense mechanism against the idea that the “good Christian man” could be a psychopathic asshole.
It’s… So basically in that culture, being gay is a deadly sin, but not just that, a sign of downright demon possession that corrupts all it touches. In Carol’s twisted worldview, Becky is not a poor homeless gay girl looking for the love and support of all the family-like pieces she’s got left, she’s a demon wearing the skin of her child’s friend, who has destroyed one family and is now corrupting another from the inside.
This demon is leading her daughter to disrespect her over the phone and use vile unChristian language and have unChristian views about what is right. And now it seems that she may have also begun corrupting her husband as well. The same “tragedy” that befell Toedad is potentially about to befall her family as well if she cannot guard its moral clarity.
And so she asks this demon, how it can be so sure of this diseased “lifestyle choice” and appeals to the remaining drop of humanity in it and the Becky mask it wears whether it thinks that choice is worth ruining one family* before it wreaks havoc on her own. In her view, she is hoping to at least stop its reign of terror there and leave her holy house in order so that when the rapture comes, she does not have to watch the people she loves suffer torments on Earth during the End of Days.
*In this worldview, Toedad did nothing wrong. Becky was sick and needed to be brought home and be made well and there’s no sin in being a bit overzealous about that. Poor man had already lost a wife after all and was not about to “lose” the last of his family.
And on top of that, the secular authorities are known to be brutally unfair to Christians, especially those Christians who try and stand up for “traditional marriage” and what is “morally right”. So their judgment of who deserves to be in jail is clearly skewed.
BUt she’s wrong about everything. Becky is not a demon. She’s a young woman who likes touching giblets and has a wonderful Dinogal who she loves deeply. And Toedad had a choice and chose this sick twisted worldview over ever seeing his daughter like a person.
It’s the poison and rot of that culture. And for those who are queer inside it or near it, it burns like acid upon the skin.
I dig your comment, Cerberus. You always provide such great analysis and context. I do, however, think it is a little early to be saying Becky and Dina are deeply in love… I mean perhaps they are heavily infatuated, gleefully involved, sweetly entangled. It just seems a little too early to call it deep love. Besides, a person doesn’t have to be deeply in love with both a man and a woman to be bisexual. Becky’s feelings for Dina don’t need to be exaggerated to defend her orientation.
I think they romantically strongly care for each other and both of them would categorize it as love. I dunno, I tend to still call NRE puppy love, love, though so your mileage may vary.
Yes, homosexuality is thought of demonic in some parts, but that’s different from calling Becky herself a demon. If she’s really thinking she’s demonically possessed, her reaction would be to call in a preacher and/or try to cast Satan out of her. I’ve seen it happen–heck, I remember being put in the nursery as a kid so I wouldn’t accidentally catch the demon as he came out.
Becky isn’t a demon or demon possessed. She’s a follower of the world, and therefore a follower of Satan. Satan is also attacking Joyce and Hank, not Becky. That’s why she is, in her twisted way, trying to reason with Becky. She wouldn’t be reasoning with a demon.
And I’m still not convinced she sees nothing wrong with what Ross(?) did. I think she thinks the same way he does, but I don’t think she’d cross the line into grabbing a gun. She’s more insidious than that–the type that on the outside seems all prim and proper.
She doesn’t think what he did was right. She just blamed Becky for it. Not as a demon, but worse–someone willingly following Satan, whose only goal is to kill and destroy.
Forgot to mention: looking proper doesn’t exclude these attacks on Becky. Notice she waited until Joyce was setting the table to say anything? She’s hiding how nasty she’s being, while convincing herself that her nastiness is only saying what Becky needs to hear to save her.
And sorry if my post seems pedantic. I just think it’s important not to overstate these beliefs. They’re bad enough as is, and we need to understand who they can actually seem reasonable to these people.
Then again, I’m a former fundie who never met anyone like this. Both of my parents are mostly like Hank (minus the willingness to curse). I’ve even mostly got them convinced with the same argument Joyce made about homosexuality. (Heck, I have two gay uncles, and my parents are the ones on the best terms with them. We go out of our way to make my “uncle-in-law” feel like a part of the family.)
That might be true and that’s probably the separation between Carol and Toedad. Toedad believed a demon was fully inhabiting his daughter to strike at him personally and hurt him personally, so he needed to harden his heart and “do what was right” to exorcise this demon.
But you might be right that Carol views Becky more as a Satanist. Fully human, but choosing a vile and evil worldview and therefore dangerous, deceitful, and toxic and a direct threat to her family, but still a human being she can reason with and convince to see the error of her ways. Someone who can be potentially “saved”.
And that also defines the line. Of course you’d take a gun and shoot a demon, but a misguided human? Even when evil, that person is still a person. But damn if you’re going to be nice to that villain at the dinner table like nothing is wrong.
Yeah, Willis is way too good at eerily accurate recreations of absolutely awful behaviors that ring way too close to actual real life awful stuff.
This is good because it means those moments actually do justice to those experiences, but it also means that they hit like a champion boxer when they come.
Not my story to tell so I won’t talk about it in detail but the reaction to some people in my past who reported a Trusted Community Authority Figure to the cops for sexual abuse was pretty much exactly the same. “So, is it worth him being in prison and destroying his family? I hope you’re pleased with yourself.”
Thankfully I never got that particular reaction. Mainly because when I was dealing with that sort of stuff I was too young to file a police report on my own and my folks were big on the “you just need to set firm enough boundaries” type of victim blaming.
Yes, because THAT’S why Becky’s dad is in prison. I’m sure it had nothing to do with the fact that he committed assault, kidnapping, and attempted murder.
It may not have been worth it to Becky, but it was clearly worth it to her father.
Now, to Becky, it might be more of a question of how much having her father in jail is worth. Although that should be true of Carol, too, what with him nearly murdering her daughter and all.
Serious comment time. We all knew at least three(?) months back that Joyce’s mom was going to be the one causing problems. That whole phone call with her just screamed it at our faces.
But hey, we might get to watch an actual divorce happen, so there’s always that.
But, she totally waited for Becky to be alone to drop the bomb on her. And do you really think Becky’s gonna tell anyone what Carol just said? Maybe she’ll drop some hints, but I’d be very surprised by full spontaneous disclosure (and very happy). And I very highly doubt that anyone around her at the moment is sensitive enough to squeeze it out of her.
Yeah, Carol is slick with her awful. Makes sure Joyce who is known to support her is out of sight and distracted with a task before dropping her little hate bomb.
A quick google say it takes at least 60 days for a divorce to be final in Indiana, so in external time that would be at least 10 years out. Same problem as with Becky registering for classes at IU.
“My father’s not in prison because I’m a lesbian. My father’s in prison because he’s a maniac who discharged a gun at a university and kidnapped me in broad daylight. Just imagine if they went around arresting people for being , rather than arresting trigger-happy kidnapping maniacs. There aren’t enough prisons in the world. And again, if every lesbian’s also did the gun-psycho-kidnapping thing, there wouldn’t be enough prisons in the world.”
…. is the rational response that no one in this comic will utter ever.
Have you tried having a triangle smile Carol? Might look a bit less disturbing than whatever that rictus is? (Or you could try not opening up with whatever victim blaming bullshit you opened up with. Maybe a sincere greeting? I’m That would work too)
Mrs. Brown’s “Can you really be sure…?” condescending nonsense…
Even if Becky _wasn’t_ sure… Becky believing herself to be a lesbian isn’t what landed her father in prison. What landed her father in prison is brandishing and threatening people with a firearm around a college campus, kidnapping, and driving recklessly is what landed him in prison.
Like, even going the “unaccepting parent” route, there were a lot of responses ToeDad could have had to the situation that would not have involved prison time. He chose his actions, not Becky.
Except that Joyce is partially autobiographical, and Willis has stated in the past that some of Mrs. Brown’s lines (“I would die for you!”) are just what his mother would say.
It’s kinda hard to call Carol an exaggerated stereotype when there are actual, real-life people who are, if anything, worse, and are not at all ashamed of sharing their views. If you met Bryan Fischer or a member of the WBC, would you scold them for being “stereotypical?”
Hold on a second… rips off mask
Aha! I knew it was you Ash Ketchum! Thought I forgot all about that obscure episode where you had to settle issues between a Electabuzz and a Scyther huh!?
Exaggerated? Are you telling me my brain has fabricated memories of my past and no one ever actually told me things like that repeatedly about multiple subjects who should’ve been my own private business? Because, I mean that would totes be exaggerated.
I wish it was. I really do wish that this was awful ugly unfair and 100% inaccurate to real life occurrence. I wish this poisoned culture was a quaint unChristian fiction with no basis in reality. I wish that most queer individuals couldn’t point to that moment in their life where someone else called their loves, their attractions, their gender identities a phase or delusion that they could shake out of if they really tried. Where we haven’t been through decades of elected officials who genuinely believe that being queer is a choice and a deliberate choice intended for nothing other than hurting “real Christians” and their morality. Where these sorts of attitudes weren’t responsible for how long it took before same-gender couples could marry, or how many states you can be legally fired or denied accommodation for being queer (including the one in the comic), where there wasn’t fights over whether or not trans people are allowed to use bathrooms or gay people are allowed to adopt kids.
I wish none of that is true and this was just the ramblings of some Christian-hating a-hole.
But it’s not. This sort of thing is the thing a lot of people have experience with and I guarantee a fair amount of folk on this board have heard very close to this verbatim from their parents or family members.
Not in the least. I know other people have said, this? But not in the least.
I used to monitor fundamentalist radio. It was brutal, and this is on the light side of things. Everything Cerberus is saying, everything being said in this strip, it’s all things they say.
I used to listen to Beverly LaHaye on Concerned Women for America’s radio show – before it went web-only – lecture on the necessity of making your queer children homeless. Of kicking them out of the house, of working to prevent friends, family – anyone – from helping them. Of the vital and critical need to drive them to utter destitution – until they would “repent” of their “sin.”
I would listen to her console and support women who called in, having done exactly this to their children.
I would see those children show up on the streets in the U. District and Capital Hill in Seattle. So very many of them.
They still do.
Ever been handed a pamphlet calling for your own execution? I have. Ever had your friends fan out to find you as quickly as possible because cell phones weren’t common yet and one of this crowd was coming from out of state to kill you for things you said on the net? I have. (His friends grabbed him before he got to his own state’s border, and talked him down.)
Do not think – and most of all, do not tell me – this is “exaggerated” or a “stereotype.” It’s all real. What you’re seeing in the comic? This is the soft edge.
This is a soap opera, man, and there are only like 8 panels in even the densest strips within which to develop characters for the audience.
Of COURSE the characters have to be presented in a somewhat more direct, exaggerated way, and written as somewhat simplified/cartooned versions of actual people, preferably hammed up to be a bit larger than life. That’s just basic conservation of detail at play. If a bigoted character spent ten or twelve scenes talking about the weather and such before saying something that hinted at bigotry like a real person, that would be an enormous waste of the reader’s time.
Ha ha ha ha ha! You say exaggerated stereotypes, and I’m over here like, “Damn, only one horrible parent and even she’s more low-key about it than my parents were…”
Coming from someone who was homeschooled in a fundamentalist cult and then spent a semester at Bob Jones University before my parents decided having a son was too much trouble and gave me the boot… NOTHING about Joyce’s parents thus far has been exaggerated. Indeed, they could be even worse.
And I also know at least one person who was abducted by his parents and stuffed in a gay re-education camp, so Ross wasn’t exaggerated either.
Some things in Dumbing of Age are exaggerated for story purposes. Christianity is not one of them.
Hell, hasn’t Willis said on his blog that for most of the Christianity bits he’s using direct quotes from his past and this is especially true of Carol who’s heavily based on his mom?
Which leads me to wonder if Carol is at all aware of the fact that Joyce was involved in all this: looking at the wrong end of the gun when Toedad dragged Becky away. And after, a wild motorcycle ride where she ended up punching Toedad a good one. I sorta always felt Joyce should have then been hugging Becky and telling her how sorry she was for the garbage her father did to her and that she was there for her…instead she let Becky comfort her.
Regardless of what a numbskull Carole is, I have to wonder if she will tell Joyce that she never would have had that trouble – if she just wasn’t friend with a gay who should by now be her ‘former’ best friend.
I find it highly possible.
I would say she did judging from Joyce’s conversation with her immediately after the incident where she defended the man who tried to kill her best friend and pointed a gun at her.
I’m wondering, too. Maybe “I’d have thought you would want him to go to prison for pointing a loaded gun at Joyce’s face?” might be a question to clear this up.
not necessarily. i knew a girl who had the choice mentality, convinced her to make out with a hot girl (by her admission) at a new years party, and then she realized that it wasn’t so much of a choice really. sometimes people just don’t think their preconceptions through.
Most of the times its asked its passive aggressive condescendation though.
In any case the answer is yes. I’m not sure why it’s a question for someone at Becky’s age. I mean most straight people I know knew they were straight at a younger age. I knew I was gay before 18.
I don’t mean to imply that it’s weird or anything to not know everything about your sexuality at that age. I just wanted to say that people do know, and other people use the question in a passive aggressive condescending manner. Like saying it’s just a phase.
Our second and third place contestants each receive a copy of the Go Fuck Yourself, You Homophobic Jackass home game! Complete with 150 question cards and real flashing lights, it’s guaranteed family fun for the whole fundie family.
And new, light-up wheel-heel walk-on-water Air Sketch! The shoes that give you meaning in life, by Sketchers.
I think it most certainly is not because sexuality can change over a person’s lifetime, and if someone who previously only liked girls decides maybe they like boys too now, it didn’t make their previous identification any less true and valid. Thus the assertion that she’s not sure about her sexuality because she’s too young is utterly laughable, because that’s not a thing that’s even possible to be!
It’s possible for sexuality to change. It’s even possible, though unlikely, that Becky is actually bi, just slanted more towards women. All that’s actually sure is that Becky is attracted to women. (For the sake of argument, ignoring actual Word of God, which I believe says she is lesbian, since that wouldn’t be known to characters in-world.)
None of that matters, because nothing other than pretending to be straight and denying any attractions to women would have been sufficient to prevent the happyfun gun times.
So, you’re technically right, but it’s on a level that Carol isn’t talking about or even capable of considering.
Actually, Becky mentioned bisexuality in a conversation back during Walking with Dina. She was jazzed that it was a thing to like both, but added “I sure as hell don’t, but whatevs!”
Oh, I was talking to the other commenter, not Carol. I think Becky’s 100% sure she’s a lesbian, but in the unlikely hypothetical situation that she did end up eventually into dudes again, it doesn’t mean she was wrong about her sexuality, it just means she changed.
It’s really not. Because what the question is asking is “Can you really be sure you are attracted to women at your age?” That’s really what Carol is asking Becky. And that’s an absurd question.
Like, when I was 13 or so and started really crushing on boys, nobody ever asked me if I could really know that I was attracted to boys at that age, because that was the expected norm. But non-het folks get this _all the time_ (and basically at all ages, as far as I can tell).
Becky _clearly_ knows that she is attracted to women and has never felt an attraction to guys.
After reading through the responses, lemme try to clarify a couple things here.
I’m down with sexuality being ‘hard-wired’ into you; being gay is not something you “choose”. But considering that — at 18 years of age — it wasn’t too many years earlier that all boys hung with other boys and thought girls were “yucky” and the girls only hung with other girls and figured all boys had cooties or worse, how then in just a few short years does someone *know* that they are straight, or gay, or bi, or asexual, or anything else for that matter? Most people probably have more time in the front seat of a car before they declare a preference for Fords rather than Chevys than they do in bed with a sexual partner before they declare a preference for same sex as opposed to opposite sex. But if a 14-year-old male says that he is attracted to other males and claims that he is a female in a male’s body and everybody is expected to agree with him … well, that seems a little sketchy to me.
At least that’s the way it worked in my youth. Maybe I am an outlier and my personal experiences don’t fit the rest of the data, but for me that’s all I’ve got to go on.
Most people have a lot of experience being attracted to members of one sex before they actually spend any time in bed with a sexual partner. Most people never even have sex with someone of the gender they don’t prefer, however old they may be. How do they know?
That’s not how it works. That’s not ever been how it works. You don’t need to actually have sexual experience to know. You know what you’re attracted to. You know what turns you on. At least for a large majority of people.
Some might find themselves rarely physically attracted to anyone. Some might be in denial. Some might be bi, with a strong tilt in one direction and not realize they could be attracted the other way as well.
Notice something about that though. It’s quite possible to not realize you might be attracted to one gender under some circumstances. It’s much weirder to know you’re attracted to a gender and be wrong about it.
You might not know and you might be missing something, but what you know, you know.
For me, long before 18. Long before I actually wound up in bed with a girl. Long before 14, even.
I can’t speak directly to the “female in a male’s body”, but from everything I’ve heard, that’s often clear even earlier, since it doesn’t wait for puberty and sexual attraction to really start.
My issue with it, as I said, is that we do tend to know if we’re attracted to someone or not. I find it very strange to question that, but that _is_ what’s being questioned here.
So, to use your example (albeit skipping the transgender part of it because sexuality/sexual orientation and gender identity are separate things, and I don’t want to conflate them) why _wouldn’t_ you believe a 14-year-old male who says he’s attracted to other males? Who else could possibly know who he does or does not feel attracted to?
And while you question whether people can really know they’re straight at that age, too, _would_ you question a 14-year-old girl who expressed an attraction to boys?
Also, knowing one’s attractions doesn’t require having been in bed with them sexually. I knew long before I ever actually had sex that I was attracted to men. Likewise, I know I’ve never experienced a romantic or sexual attraction to another woman despite never having had sex with one. In fact, a key reason I’ve never had sex with another women is that I’ve never had the desire to do so.
When you ask someone “Can you really be sure… ?” about something like this, you are outright questioning whether they know their own experiences. It’s exactly as condescending and nonsensical as telling someone you feel happy and have them respond with “Are you sure what you’re feeling isn’t actually sadness?”
Is it impossible that Becky might someday discover she’s bi or pan? No. It’s not impossible (though it seems an unlikely direction for Willis to take the story), but she definitely knows she is attracted to women. And the distinction between whether Becky is lesbian, bi, pan, (or anything other than straight) is unlikely to matter in the context of what Carol is asking her.
I mean, why not agree with them? I mean people don’t tend to be mistaken on who they are attracted to. Sure it’s a possibility that later on in life Becky might discover that guys are sexually interesting too. ( I mean Danny came upon a similar discovery in the comic). But she seems to be pretty damn sure of her interest in girls, Joyce and Dina especially. (To use a personal example, shortly after puberty started I realized I liked guys in that way. It wasn’t until a little later I could probably say that I wasn’t interested in girls that way. But even if tomorrow I did wake up liking girls it wouldn’t make any past feelings about guys illegitimate. Especially since those feelings for guys would probably still be there)
I mean what’s the point of questioning someone’s identity other than to do what Carol is doing right now?
I can’t really say anything regarding gender identity, but I know other people here can, and even on this page they’ve talked about dealing with that bullshit question.
“But if a 14-year-old male says that he is attracted to other males and claims that he is a female in a male’s body and everybody is expected to agree with him … well, that seems a little sketchy to me.”
Yikes, Bicycle Bill.
First of all, trans kids don’t expect people to “agree with” them. They expect to be questioned, bullied, harassed, and assaulted. That’s what happens to trans women when they come out, after all.
Second of all, “agree with”? It’s not an opinion, it’s a kid’s identity. You don’t agree or disagree with someone’s identity, because to be very frank you don’t get a vote on it. I mean, to use a very innocuous example, if I tell you I’m a Phillies fan, do you try to argue with me about whether I really am or not? Or do you reserve your “agreement”/”disagreement” standard only for sexualities and genders?
I’m a cis woman. Do you form an opinion on that? Is that something you’d feel you were being unreasonably accepted to “agree” with?
What seriously weird phrasing. And you put it in both bold and italic, as if you thought people would… well… agree with it.
Well, I’ve been in love with your daughter for most of my life, so that’s pretty compelling evidence, and my dad managed to stay out of prison for all those years, so it’s probably not really a causal relationship there.
It’s probably the best way this conversation could go, but question is still waaaaay unacceptable.
I know Becky is sure she’s a lesbian, but imagine for a second if she wasn’t. If Becky wasn’t sure she was a lesbian, would she deserve to have Carol throw it in her face like this while tacitly blaming her for her father’s criminal actions?
Forgot to mention – I also wouldn’t put it past Becky to have a small, traitorous, illogical part of her brain that’s telling her what happened with her father is her fault, and being who she is isn’t worth it. And Carol trying to feed that part of her brain, it’s just- I can’t.
Oh, I guarantee it, because having been through similar stuff, it’s almost impossible to not. Especially when her parents and now Carol are saying out loud that it’s all her fault.
And that’s backed up in the text. The moments where she’s broken down have mostly been about apologizing to Joyce for “breaking everything”. Like there was the moment at the diner where she told Joyce that Joyce should be angry at her for breaking everything: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/lob/
She’s most definitely internalizing everything and that’s got to be brutal as fuck for her.
That’s actually a much harder question. Thinking you’re heterosexual has all the cultural assumptions and force behind it. Thinking you’re gay is defying all of that, especially in a community like this one.
I don’t think Carol is actually trying. She’s kinda blaming Becky for her dad being in jail. I’m at a loss as to how to interpret that as something other than victim blaming. That fake smile is making it worse really.
No, the worst part is that this probably is her trying and she probably expects credit for it. Like, I didn’t call you a sinner. I didn’t tell you to get out of my house. I am not hitting you or sprinkling you with holy water or staging an exorcism (yet). This is me being nice.
And so I ask you, demon, was your reign of terror worth it?
It’s 100% victim blaming, it’s 100% awful, but the worst part is I’m nearly positive that Carol thinks she’s legitimately playing this one kindly.
…I have just decided that the next time I start to feel unsure about my life choices, I will imagine Carol Brown snarling at me, “So, demon, was your reign of terror worth it?”
Because that’s a fucking metal question and the answer is yes, yes it very much was.
I can totally see Carla taking that question and running with it if she was there. She’s really fucking good at taking hateful bigots’ shit and throwing it back in their faces. So long as they don’t go for blindside suckerpunches, anyway… but I don’t think Carol would. Not because she doesn’t have a judgey side like Mary, but because Carol’s more passive-aggressive.
Short answer: yes. Long answer: Dammit Carol your husband’s fine with it, your daughter almost got shot in the FACE because my dad’s an asshole, why don’t you go look in the mirror and see if you can spot exactly where things have gone wrong with your train of thought ma’am?
She’s not up there with Ross McIntyre and Blaine O’Malley, but she’s working on it. Definitely surpassed Ethan’s Mom and probably just edged out Walky and Sal’s Mom today.
“This is Carol.
Carol doesn’t hunt people with a gun.
Carol is a better parent than Ross.
Be smart, be nothing like Carol OR Ross.
Be a not-terrible person instead.”
Different people mature and figure things out at different times. Most people I know didn’t start to REALLY question the big things in their life till 16, give or take a year.
If she was 14, I’d almost think that’s a fair question. Maybe she “knows”, chances are she’s still a teen who just thinks she’s sure about everything.
If she was 16, I’d say she probably knows, and even if she doesn’t it shouldn’t be an issue. If she doesn’t “know”, she’ll figure it out.
But she’s what, 18? 19? She’s reaching or is past the point where questions like that aren’t idle speculation anymore. And again, shouldn’t matter.
Because the biggest thing “Is it worth your father being in prison?” no, it’s not. Him pointing a gun at my your daughter’s face is worth him being in prison. He did more than that, but that’s enough 20x over already!
“He’s not in jail because I’m a lesbian. He’s in jail because he kidnapped me at gunpoint and threatened to kill my friends. And yes, I am a lesbian. If you don’t like that well, I don’t know where I’ll go, I don’t have money to go anywhere, but I won’t stay here. ”
I’m not a lawyer, but I’d think that house is still her legal residence. Unless Toedad was able to file whatever legal papers are needed to throw her out while he is in jail. And even in that case she’d have the right to remove her possessions.
Actually, for example, I know for a fact that after my grandpa’s death I legally own a share of our apartment. I dunno how it usually works in America, but me thinks it’s not completely out of question that Becky might actually be a legal co-owner of the house.
“In order ‘yes’ and ‘he seemed to think so when he threatened a campus with a shotgun.’ And, to answer the question you didn’t ask, ‘no, you don’t get a say.'”
Today, in People Whose Necks I Would Snap Like a Fragile Twig if Not for the Fact they are Fictional and Also I Am Morally Opposed to Killing.
In a perfect world, the next comic would be Becky and Joyce back in Joyce’s dorm room, being like “Well, that didn’t work.” “Wanna watch a movie they didn’t let us see?”
Tell that bible thumping, sanctimonious old bongo to fuck off, Becky! “My Dad’s a fucking kidnapper with a gun, Ms. Brown. He’s a nutty judgemental Christian like you are. I’m queer and I’m here, so live with it.”
Interesting that Mrs. Brown doesn’t cause trouble until Joyce leaves the room. I’m wondering if she’s wary of annoying Joyce now that Joyce has started fighting against her bigotry.
Classic Willis one-two beatdown. “Here, have a couple panels of the sweetest dog ever. NOW HAVE THE MOM OF PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE DOOM.” Buckle up, friendos, for The Incredible Flaming Shitshow.
I was off about the Brownpocalypse by hours rather than minutes, darn. In my defense, I assumed Carol was in the car waiting for Joyce, not four hours away. Though if the countdown starts from when Becky and Joyce greet Carol, then my Brownpocalypse prediction was right! :p
And no, Carol, bad! The first part of your sentence is DEBATABLE at best (in the sense that you’re incredibly wrong, but I can see where the bad logic comes from) but there’s nothing backing the second one, not even from a Christian perspective or whatever.
Ross attacked Becky and her friends on his own free will. HE escalated the situation. HE broke the law, HE made the decision to do so. It’s all on him.
How he reacted is not Becky’s fault.
You might think Becky did something wrong by deciding (?) to become a lesbian (you’re wrong on that too, but that’s a separate argument) but Ross was the one who reacted to it the way he did. There were a million ways he could have reacted to his daughter’s coming out and he chose gun. Becky is not responsible for that.
Y’know, I like to believe the best in people. Call me an idealist or foolishly naive, but I’d like to think that people in general have it in them to be decent human beings, and that the vile sort of person that would go out of their way to hurt someone else, such as Mrs. Brown would be the sort of evil that could exist in stories. That surely people can’t be this bad in real life.
Then I remember that Joyce’s character is semi-autobiographical, and that her mother’s words have been taken from actual events, whether it be in personal conversation, by witness, or through hearsay.
I remember this, and it genuinely makes me want to puke. What hope does humanity have when it’s so busy tearing itself apart? While I didn’t need another reason for being an atheist, this sort of thing just reinforces it.
Because even if a kind and loving God existed, how can we be worthy of salvation when we have people who can do and say things like Ross and Mrs. Brown? When we’re capable of this kind of cruelty, maybe we don’t deserve grace.
…Sorry, I’m rambling. It’s late and I’m tired, which makes me prone to stream-of-consciousness existentialist blather like this.
I grew up surrounded by it… but their kids have abandoned that culture, because they knew people personally. They knew me and that affected their ability to see that evil “unknown” as the demon it was made out to be.
And I have seen no shortage of parents who echo this, but every year their number decreases, just a little. There’s still a lot of bad, but things are getting better thanks to the tireless work of activists. And that’s all we can really hope for.
I guess so. It’s not like I can say much, considering I grew up in a supportive family and I myself am male and straight, but…I guess what I’m trying to say is I wish things were different. Although it is good to hear that things are at least going in the right direction, even if it’s only in baby steps.
Stone by stone, we break down the harsh brick wall of bigotry, throwing our bloody bodies against it till the bricks loosen and chip. But piece by piece, still bringing it DOWN.
The ally in me is twitching because… I’ve seen enough of your bodies being bloodied.
Those should be our bodies.
That wall’s built on an assumption of our compliance, and where it’s still standing then that’s on us, dammit. Those of us being privileged by that shit should be doing our damn jobs and turning it to rubble.
*solemnly nods* The trouble for some – self included – is feeling like it’s wrong to burn the bridges with those friends and relatives who won’t budge on their bigotry. Whether that’s out of love, patience, and hope, or just Christian Values (TM), I’m never sure, but
Mind you, i’m no stranger to emotional abuse, myself. The ex of someone very important to me (a parent) was a homophobic, trans-hating, aggressively controlling, verbally abusive and physically intimidating asshole (I’m not gay or trans, but that didn’t stop him from being abusive to me or my mother. I just know he’s homo/transphobic because he would never shut up about it if a gay character happened to show up on TV). I think part of the reason it disgusts me is because on some level I know what it’s like and the fact that it happens to other people besides me, specifically BECAUSE they are different horrifies me.
I would never wish my past misfortunes one someone else, and yet I’m continually reminded that it happens every damn day.
The thing is, what you say is still true. The vast majority of people are good. If they weren’t, society wouldn’t work. It depends on people being nice to each other for their own good.
Sure, society historically hits snags like this. But look at it this way: Willis is able to make a comic about this, and I’ve yet to see anyone disagree that Carol is a bad person and that what she’s doing is wrong.
While there are some stragglers, we as a society are have rejected this crap. Because people are generally ultimately good, and once they become aware of the problems, they find them disgusting.
It’s actually fundamentalism that teaches that people are generally horrible and only being a Christian gives them the slightest chance to be good.
1) Dear Bob in Himmel, Becky has the patience and grace of a bobdamned saint! Like, holy fuck, she just takes that lovely little emotional shiv right in here still fresh wounds from her last meeting with her dad and disarmingly takes it. No rising to the argument. No anger, just taking the shiv and tilting her head up so she doesn’t cry.
That takes bloody emotional fortitude and I doubt many could hold out so well in a similar situation.
2) Oi, she was so happy and hopeful in Panels 3 and 4. You can tell she let down her armor just a little and let herself hope that Joyce’s parents would welcome her and be her replacement family, who accept her. Maybe hesitatingly, but at least with respect for what she’s been through. And in response, bam, right in the spleen.
We know from the Toedad in the Hospital scene that Becky bottles all this up inside trying to let none of it show in front of anyone, so this has got to just be adding to her sense of pain and loss and I can so identify with that and that stupid hope that maybe this loved one won’t treat you like shit if you’re just disarming enough.
3) Oh, those words, those damned words. That construction of phase. That assumption that you’re too young to know until you’re so old that you must be lying, because a real X would have known when they were a child. That vile little victim-blaming nugget and that echoing of what her father said to her when he was lying on his hospital bed. What he said the very last time she saw him right after he had threatened the life of so many people to kidnap her to drag her off to torture.
And Carol is good at that, echoing the toxicity of Toedad, because they are one and the same by culture, Toedad’s just more upfront about it.
Willis is way too good at accurately capturing those moments and how they land like blows to the sides. Joyce may have expected a rough trip, but Becky is in for an even rougher one. And the worst part of it all is that she’s self-sacrificing and bottles everything until it rips her apart. She will bleed internally to play happy and support Joyce and won’t ever reach out for support or show how much this is hurting.
I really hope she borrows Joyce’s phone to call Dina, because with Dina she’s gotten the closest to revealing the pain of her recent experiences.
Ross would just kill the meat-sack hosting Joyce’s immortal form. It would suck for Carol, being stuck on Earth, but Joyce would be in Heaven. True fact, Catholics used to practice religiously-driven anorexia, based on a belief that withering away the temporal self made one’s spiritual self stronger (or, in blunter terms: starving increases the soul-to-flesh ratio, making you holier).
I know Joyce’s people are closer to “the Pope is the anti-Christ!” than Catholic.
Mrs Brown. Mr MacIntyre is in prison not because Becky is a lesbian but because he pulled a gun on her frickin FACE.
Not to mention the ‘masked vigilante’ on campus he pulled it on… WHILE DRIVING.
He also attacked Dina, so you know, that’s another count of assault.
Also he was driving so recklessly in general even without the gun bits he might as well have been drunk. He put not just Becky but many people in danger. (And Becky is bad enough. I mean she’s his DAUGHTER).
I mean even certain bigots can object to such tactics, I’m sure. I think. I hope.
Mr MacIntyre is in prison from no-ones fault but his own and possibly the culture he was raised in- the same one you were raised in. But I guess that kind of self reflection is too hard for you. On some level I can get it, what you have been raised to think is right and true is twisted and terrible and it can be hard to even think there is a problem with that because well… that’s just reality for you. But given the fact your husband is making the steps towards growing and being a better person really shows you still have no real excuse.
In fairness, pulling it on the masked vigilante was probably legal, as well as not being at all unreasonable.
Agreed 100% on the rest of it, though, kind of obviously Toedad’s own damned fault there. Even the ‘culture he was raised in’ doesn’t really champion aggravated kidnapping as a method of problem-solving, man. Even Republican Jesus only likes guns for actual self-defense.
No. Pretty much anything you do during felony kidnapping is neither legal not reasonable. You don’t get to call self-defense on someone trying to stop you in the commission of a felony.
Can she know she’s a lesbian? Of course.
Is it worth her father being in prison? Yes, being true to oneself is always worth it. Besides, his being in prison is his own damn fault.
That said, a reaction like this was… expected from Mama Brown. 🙁
I would argue that being true to yourself isn’t worth your family being in prison, if the cause and effect actually went in that direction it’d be reasonable to abstain.
The cause and effect DON’T go in that direction, though. Toedad is in trouble because he’s a violent idiot that actively drove his daughter away and then resorted to felony abduction to try to rectify his own guilt about it. He’s not in trouble BECAUSE she’s a lesbian, so it doesn’t matter whether it would be worth it or not, the question is just nonsense.
He… wasn’t feeling guilt about his daughter being driven off. He was feeling threatened, and disobeyed, and unjustly challenged, and angered that something that belonged to him and was owed to him had been taken away by teh evils in defiance of him. Note that the owned-by-Ross-McIntyre theme was more important than anything else.
The closest he even came to guilt was the bullshit in the car about Becky reclaiming her womanhood and him then having his daughter back, and then he realised he was being disobeyed again and he was right back to “I-will-defend” this and “duty” that and bam, it’s all Becky’s fault.
Carol, he’s the one who started waving a gun around, uninvited. I’m guessing that he’s the one who decided that he wanted to go to prison, no matter what Becky did or didn’t want.
((Sigh)) I guess that sets the tone for the weekend. I just hope she can give it a rest at the meal table. Politics and dinner are a lousy combination!
That’s assuming that this is what her husband’s wishes are. I can absolutely see him being like ‘well I disagree with Carol but she has a right to an opinion and can’t you see she’s upset? She cares about you! Just don’t make a mess of this situation is all I’m asking for’.
It’s the nice ones whose betrayal can hurt the most.
Becky, I love you, but WHY would you want to spend time alone with the mother of your best friend who you probably KNOW is the kind of person to ask that question.
So the first thing she asks is not about the event where a gun was pointed at Becky and her daughter’s face, but if Becky’s sexuality is legitimate? Does she really put her own bigotry above human life?
I suppose right now Joyce’s mom is in a denial stage, and is trying to pin the blame on something more convenient. She needs to sort out her priorities.
I don’t agree, because that assumes her radically different belief system and her commitment to it would still generate a priority scale similar to ours. When she and Joyce spoke on the phone, her first words (to her daughter, higher priority than daughter’s best friend) were along the lines of “are you okay? I was so scared for you!” and immediately segued into “but poor man, you have to understand, he only thought he was doing his best. I would die for you, Joyce.” ie, “If your soul was imperiled, I don’t know what I would do, but there’s no end to the lengths I would take to save you. If I thought Satan had sunk his trident into your soul and you decided to be a lesbian, Joyce, I might do what Ross did.”
When she sees Becky, she doesn’t seem to see a traumatised young woman who’s been effectively orphaned, who’s grieving for her mom and the pain of rejection and life-threatening violence (the car chase is DEFINITELY this) from her father. She sees Becky, Joyce’s former childhood friend, who let the devil into her soul in one of the most perverse ways possible; her father, a profoundly devout Christian, feared for Becky’s life, seeing her blindly giving herself to the Deceiver, made a profound sacrifice out of love for Becky. Because Becky made her choices, being lulled by lust and avarice into giving away her true immortal self to Satan, she caused her dad’s reactions, and because Becky’s letting evil take root in herself, Carol need not consider her emotions as an equal human.
Man… I know all of these things already. But the way you’re describing it still makes it a punch in the gut, Stara.
(On a lighter note, I first wrote that last part as “a gut in the punch”. Which, in its own twisted way, would also have been an appropriate description.)
I think Carol is a bit unfair here. ToeDad was rather out of line with the whole gunpoint-kidnapping so opening with rejecting Becky in the closest thing she has to a home by the closest thing she has to a mother can be seen as a bit tactless.
so no chance of her trying to storm the prison to get Thumbdad’s head when she learns he aimed a shotgun at her daughter trying to ‘save’ his family? maybe even the screaming of an obscenity or two? or is she just too far gone into her faith? (She Reminds me a LOT of one of my aunts actually. which is NOT a good thing)
faith and spirituality are fine, but does one REALLY have to become a mindless drone? or is it a natural insanity defense when the mind cannot reconcile the differences?
We know from Hank that ToeDad has always been the charmer we have come to know and hate. Carol has known him for two decades. She knows exactly where he’s coming from, she has heard his hate-speeches, she has witnessed his violence and self-righteousness. And now she knows that he turned that towards her DAUGHTER. Towards both her daughters (if she had any decency that is how she should regard Becky).
ROSS POINTED A GUN AT HER CHILD. ROSS THOUGHT HE WAS ENTITLED TO POINT A GUN AT HER CHILD. Carol should gather a mob and demand ToeDad’s head on a pike. She should scream abuse at him on every internet and newspaper within reach. She should petition her pastor and friends to strike Ross name from the community and make sure to never welcome him or people like him again. She should collect money to give Becky a scholarship.
She should give Becky a hug and tell her that she is always welcome.
THAT IS THE LEAST SHE SHOULD DO, even if she refused to budge on the sexuality-thing, THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE PRIORITY WHEN A GUN WAS POINTED AT THE FACE OF HER CHILD!!!!!!!!
So that’s what makes this all worse. She knows Toedad pointed a gun at her daughter. That he threatened to kill what she thinks is her only daughter in order to kidnap a person who was practically a daughter to her and one of her daughter’s closest friends. And that this is something her daughter was so upset about she actually yelled at her parents about it, which is super serious and big and definitely the topic of discussion of some family meetings this week.
And yet… she’s not doing any of the things Bagge said. Hell, she’s not even able to get a hate-on going for him because she sympathizes with what “he was trying to do”*. And instead she focuses on the “real” tragedy. A “good man” is in jail because his ungrateful and Satanic daughter chose to be all lesbiafied.
And it’s really disgusting.
*Which also makes me wonder based on Hank’s earlier comments if there weren’t a number of instances in the past of Hank going “Lord help me, I want to punch that man, Carol” and Carol talking him down talking about how “Godly” a man Toedad was and how his “heart is in the right place” so ignore his too bigoted even for a bigoted PMD Rapturist Church views.
Jeez, I wish I had a lesbian daughter. Then, if I felt like doing any crazy criminal s#!t, I could get away with it scot-free by saying, “The power of my daughter’s girl-boners MADE me do it.”
Was she having an affair with Toedad or something?
Because I grew up around a lot of terrible fundies, and even by that standard blaming a parent’s violent abuse on the kid wouldn’t have been considered remotely acceptable by anyone but the actual abuser and potentially the victim.
Actually the fact that fundie communities tend to be fairly intolerant of trying to pass the buck for your own sins may be their only redeeming quality, now that I’m pondering it. If you engage in violent behavior, it’s a demonstration that you’re not in a state of grace, and there’s no one to blame but yourself.
An upside of sola scriptura and Calvinism, who knew?
“Was she having an affair with Toedad or something?”
I’ve got to say that I’m wondering that. If Hank is more easy-going and compassionate, it’s quite possible that Ross was closer to Carol’s definition of a ‘proper Christian father’ and she may have been attracted to him. Maybe she wanted to ‘comfort’ him after his wife died and maybe she let him ‘comfort’ her when her frustration with Hank’s attitude got too much.
It would be a profound irony if “Mrs Self-Righteous” was, in fact, an adulteress. Did Ross do things for her that Hank wouldn’t? Things she thought she deserved but couldn’t get elsewhere?
‘It would be a profound irony if “Mrs Self-Righteous” was, in fact, an adulteress.’ That phrase is making me snigger a little because that’s kinda Mary’s storyline in Roomies!
Honestly I’m not a fan of the ‘christian hypocrite’ trope. I mean it happens irl sometimes sure, but it’s kind of overused and well… toxic ideas or beliefs are toxic regardless if the person dedicates and keeps to them 100%. Failing to upkeep to other certain ‘standards’ in fiction can sometimes kind of distract from it honestly, so I’m not a fan of it as a narrative device (it kind of almost implies that their ideas would be fine if they had actually kept to all the ‘rules’? If that makes sense?) I didn’t like it when when Mary did it in the other universe for instance (was self righteous /and/ a hypocrite both). I prefer her as just this terrible self righteous person with toxic ideas in this universe and that’s it rather than adding her in as some girl who sleeps around despite it being against her religious beliefs.
Mary and Carol have garbage beliefs, even if they are ‘squeaky clean’ in terms of sexual conduct in relation to their beliefs. Even if there’s no ‘dirt’ below the surface to dig for, they are plenty toxic and unlikeable as they are.
Well you are pretty lucky then! Either that or just never got to face how that community REALLY feels about it when confronted with a real question.
Victim blaming is alive and well, and alas, Christians are no more exempt from it by virtue of their faith than from vicious hatred, materialism and selfishness.
I never had commented before but today i just had to. This nailed it gor me.
That’s the almost exactly (gay not lesbian) what my mom told me when i came out to her. Mime also added the classic “how can be sure if virgin and never slept with girls” in the mix. Worst X-mas.
Favourite part of this strip is definitely the third and fourth panels. Becky walks up to Replacement Mom and does the same thing with Hank; casually acknowledge them as she’s done before and waits for them to respond, and the body language is a lot more confident this time because, hey, Replacement Dad is already cool with it so obviously you’ll be too, right?
And then hope is shattered because it’s Dumbing of Age and David Willis is powered by our misery.
Okay, so everyone is rightfully focused on the Bad MomTM of the comic, but I want to focus on something happier: JUST LOOK AT THE DOG’S FACE IN PANEL ONE: Who’s a good happy dog that isn’t homophobic? Who’s a good happy dog that just loves people for being nice kind people who gives you pats, no matter who they want to love? Who’s a good dog? You are! Yes you are!
“Didn’t you get married at my age? How can you be sure you’re really straight?
“Also, do you think that bringing a rifle onto a public campus to kidnap a legal adult and firing it is somehow not jail-worthy?
“Frankly, as much as I never want to see him again, I’m just happy that he’s still alive. Because there was about a zero percent chance that the cops weren’t going to gun him down. When Joyce knocked him out? She saved his life.
I think that Carol’s assumption is that Ross wouldn’t have done something like that if Becky hadn’t come out. I think she’s wrong about that. For such a violent personality, it was just a matter of finding an excuse to act out his violent dominance/ownership fantasies.
I’ve got a horrible feeling that Carol’s support of Ross may lead to uncomfortable revelations. Does she consider Ross a better Christian man than Hank? Did she ever go to him for ‘comfort’ when her frustration with Hank’s refusal to do something like “beat the sin out” of their kids got too great? I’m wondering if the weekend may end with divorce very much on the table because Carol cannot respect her husband’s compassion or abide by his wish that she doesn’t badger Joyce, Becky and Jocelyn.
Becky: Yep, because me deciding I’m not actually into girls will magically make it so that my dad didn’t show up on a college campus with a gun, threaten both me and another person, fire the gun, and then kidnap me at gunpoint. Oh, that’s right, you don’t believe in magic.
Not sure how recanting her lesbian ways can erase the whole BRINGING A GUN TO A CAMPUS AND FIRING IT.
I bet Carol is mostly upset at the cops for arresting Ross when all he was doing was driving his daughter home. I mean, who hasn’t had to pick up their kids at gunpoint? Where are we going as a country when a father can’t force his adult daughter into his car with a gun?
This is a little too reminiscent of the Hoosier mentality. It’s victim blaming at it’s core. “You asked for it because you’re a lesbian.”
Nothing about shooting a gun on campus and kidnapping someone and trying to kill someone else can be excused by someone’s beliefs on homosexuality or religion. And, before the hate train starts, I’m simply seeing this from an ultraconservative, backwater Xian perspective, not saying that there is something wrong with batting for the other team. Regardless of what she did in his eyes, he’s the one who started shooting on campus.
One hug, when talking to both Joyce and Becky. As in not for both of them, and I’m guessing it’s not for Becky.
Carol… Becky needs the unconditional love of family right now, and whether either of you has ever explicitly acknowledged it before or not, you must know that she’s a part of your family.
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! I missed that one, but now when you point it out… and it is sure to be just the first of many, MANY passive aggressive comments of the same kind.
“You are not welcome here” is what Carol is telling Becky. “You are not welcome here” is what she tells a girl who practically grew up under her roof, who’s mother is dead, who’s father is in prison, who is thrown out from her school and who is not taken away by her gun-wielding father ONLY because Carol’s own daughter.
Nope, she stopped being part of the family when she “decided” she was gay. That’s how it works.
Of course, she’d be welcomed back into the fold if she repented, and gave up those crazy ideas the Outside put in her head, and asked forgiveness of God and everyone she’s wronged…
She has. She just hoped for the best, because in situation like this, literally EVERYTHING is a coming disaster with 50% chance of realizing. Your only option to get ANY good is to just brace yourself to weather the disasters and keep taking the risk.
<q cite="Can you REALLY be sure you’re a lesbian at your age..”>
Yes, she can, believe it
Get your head out the sand, lady. He’s a violent asshole and prison is where he belongs, in the psyche wing for that matter; he brought a firearm onto a college campus and was willing to shoot people over something that should have been at worst a heated conversation! That’s not normal, that’s about as UNCOOL as it gets, and he should thank whatever god of blood and vengeance he believes in that he didn’t end up perforated courtesy of the local LEOs.
@Willis this is the shit that you tolerate in your comment section and it keeps keeps keeps keeps piling up and at some point the ability to tolerate it and trade the bad for the good just SNAPS
(No, mentally ill people are not more likely to be violent. There’s no psychiatric treatment for bigotry and abusiveness. Mentally ill people are much more likely to be abused than to abuse.)
Liliet, you’re taking what I said the wrong way entirely, and I’m a little mystified as to how that happened. I’m not in any way, shape, or form, saying ‘mentally ill people are violent’; what I am (and DID) say, is Beckys’ father acts like he’s mentally ill, or perhaps a better phrase for me to have used there would have been ‘criminally insane’. I apologize if you misunderstood me.
Liliet didn’t really misunderstand you. While perhaps the blow-up at Willis for not nuking it from orbit is a bit much, there is an actual issue with your comment.
Your comment falls into a trope popular in media (both fiction and, unfortunately, sometimes the news) that attributes any evil that is incomprehensible to us to some form of mental illness. The simple fact is that evil isn’t a mental illness, it’s just evil, and the ‘criminally insane’ that we see in popular fiction isn’t actually insane by either medical or legal definitions. The vast majority of Batman villains, for example, don’t actually belong in Arkham Asylum, just a regular ol prison (preferably one with better security).
Toedad is evil. Toedad is CONFOUNDINGLY evil. It’s reassuring to chalk this up to some disease with Toedad’s brain. This makes sense of it, makes it something quantifiable and gives us hope that it will someday be curable. The problem is, when we associate ‘this level of evil must be a mental illness’, it adds to the stigma of actual mentally ill persons by lumping that evil in with them. Even if it’s paired with paying lip-service to the fact that no, not all mentally ill persons are dangerous, it adds on a silent ‘but some of them are really scarily dangerous like ‘normal’ people could never be’.
The long and short of it is that no, Toedad does not “act like he’s mentally ill”. He acts evilly, which has nothing to do with mental illness.
Liliet, I have twin infants. I keep strange hours. When I am awake, I am invariably bottlefeeding, changing, or consoling them. Last night (well, this morning) I went to bed at 5am. And so it’s real fucking fun to get up and have fingers thrown at me for what I’ve “allowed.”
(sorry, somehow the formatting butchered my post.. delete the previous one?)
“Can you REALLY be sure you’re a lesbian at your age..”
Yes, she can, believe it
“..and is it worth your father being in prison?”
Get your head out the sand, lady. He’s a violent asshole and prison is where he belongs, in the psyche wing for that matter; he brought a firearm onto a college campus and was willing to shoot people over something that should have been at worst a heated conversation! That’s not normal, that’s about as UNCOOL as it gets, and he should thank whatever god of blood and vengeance he believes in that he didn’t end up perforated courtesy of the local LEOs.
What’s more. The prison thing is out of everyone’s hands. It’s not the victim’s call to charge a person. It’s the DA’s call. And bringing a gun onto a college campus is a slam dunk.
Oh good. Let’s blame Becky for her father’s murderous rampage. Because Becky living in an abusive environment with a father who hates her and calls it God is infinitely better than Becky being a happy, well-adjusted kid surrounded by people who accept her for who she is.
FYI, Mrs. Brown? You’re driving away your daughter.
I literally have no memory of her even existing, sorry. I appear to have forgotten virtually all of what of Shortpacked I read at some point. Or did you mean here? Because I still haven’t actually started reading this properly. Just following updates, because… stuff. And trans girls.
Ohhh… Dumbiverse Ethan’s Mom. Yeah, a handful of scattered strips from various point and this latest bit starting from about where Mary drags Carla out to attack her, and a bit of the beginning is all I’ve read of this so far. I’m working on catching up on/refreshing on/finishing out Walkyverse stuff for now, but I can’t stop coming back for new strips.
I was only kind of vaguely aware from seeing him a few times that Ethan was even IN this, so the “sleeping with Joyce” caught me off-guard for a second.
You’re thinking of Dumbiverse Linda. I’m thinking of Walkyverse Linda. Her bad parenting is “Everyday Bad Parenting” in much the sense you could describe an axe wound nearly severing your torso as “A particularly nasty papercut.”
For all I know, Dumbiverse Linda is literally an enormous garden snail. I’m focusing on Walkyverse, and I’ve only seen scattered strips of this, plus most of the most recent (starting from about the Mary/Carla bit) and the very first few strips.
It can be so bizarre knowing that this is what a number of Christians ACTUALLY BELIEVE. Especially in having grown up in a religious but not nearly has extreme household.
Like, and I think MY family’s homophobic. And yet they’re saints compared to this.
Damn, Mrs. Brown. “Can you REALLY be sure your a lesbian at your age?” is horrible, I knew at age 5 I liked girls and wanted Barbie to marry other Barbie, and could I someday marry my neighbor Kelly. Kids learn quick though that many grown ups frown on that and just keep quiet til they’re older… And Becky is 18!!! An adult. If she liked boys, Mrs. Brown wouldn’t say “Can you REALLY be sure you’re a heterosexual at your age?”
Plus, “and is it worth your father being in prison?”!!!Like that was Becky’s choice. She just wanted her father to love her for who she is.. He is in prison because he broke the law and was a terrible person, not because she is gay. Lots of gay people have parents that DON’T go to prison. Or kidnap them and hold guns to their and their friend’s heads, and assault their girl/boyfriends.
I’m kinda envious of gay&bi people for that. Being asexual is a much, much harder thing to realize and be sure of. Absence is not a noticable presence.
I wonder if the preacher will be joining them for dinner? Someone’s stoking those fundamentalist fires, and whoever’s in control will want the “sinful heathen pervert” dealt with quickly.
Oh, well. I was kind of expecting her to pretend Becky was still straight and deny any argument to the contrary and derail any conversation on the subject.
answer to 1: does it really matter? answer to 2: among sane people those 2 things don’t really correlate.
Seriously, to normal people “family member is gay” doesn’t mean “I should brandish and fire a shotgun on a college campus.” Whatever your religious convictions may be.
Certain? Probably not, but she seems to be comfortable with it, which makes it likely. She might be bi, but that’s another story.
As for dumbshit being in prison, he has no one to blame for that but himself.
Of course I’m sure he WILL blame everyone but himself for it.
As is usually the case with such things.
A terrible thought just occurred to me… I’m predicting that Joyce’s mother was the one to tell Ross where Becky was… I mean, Joyce lied to her to say she hadn’t heard from Becky, but Joyce isn’t a very convincing liar…
The horrifying part of this isn’t that she clearly doesn’t like lesbians. She’s entitled to her beliefs and her opinions as long as they don’t hurt others.
The horrifying part is that she clearly feels it’s Becky’s actions of being a lesbian and not her bather’s actions of breaking the law that resulted in his being in prison. It terrifies me that if Joyce hadn’t been rescued at that party and the guy had gone to jail that her mom would have yelled at her “was y our being a slut really a good reason for that boy to go to prison”
yeaaaahhhhh fuck her mom, i like her dad but her mom sucks
more importantly, fuck the shit that turned her mom from probably a perfectly nice person to the equivalent of a certian mister gun toting jerwad without violent tendencies
all that noise needs to burn, joyce is not just a character, she is millions of people happening all the time all over the world
and so is joyces mom, and beckys dad, and that breaks my heart that people turn into that because of stupid nonsense from a fucking book that gets almost everything it wrong
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“idk, can you really be sure you’re het at YOUR age, and is it worth your family FEELING like they’re in prison??”
Carol Brown, just take a bus out of town
(we’re hoping that you won’t stick around)
It’s possible that Carol had to check to make sure she was het. Isn’t that what college is for?
Not Anderson, apparently. Or maybe it’s an extracurricular, and the problem was Becky didn’t register for it.
Imagine the bombshell if it turns out she’s not straight, but has spend the last 2x years acting as if she is.
Your mother was weregay all through college, and I still turn gay under the light of the full moon.
That’s a movie right there. Although, possibly one that’s only shown on cable after midnight.
That whole sketch would be hilarious (if a non-sequitur) as the conclusion to the storm brewing on the (fairly close) horizon.
Hahahaha
Good lord Saturday Morning Breakfast cereal!
That actually can be a thing. My it’s complicated’s mom back when she came out as bi, said that it was clearly just a phase, because she had those sorts of attractions for a roommate once but was able to “grow out of it”.
So, basically because she was bi and hid in the closet about it, then clearly that was an acceptable and ideal path for her daughter to take as well.
Pronoun vagueness! My inner editor is coming out… (No pun intended)
*Back when my it’s-complicated came out as bi, her mom said that clearly …
Good lord. I’ve surpassed grammar Nazism.
One day, you wake up in a daze at your computer, your screen covered in red marks…
Gods, what have I done! I can’t control my urges to edit anymore…
I’m a monster… A were-editor!
oh thank you, i was gonna ask cerberus ‘bee, what kind of modern family do you have where you have an it’s-complicated mom?’ 😂😂
#wincest?
Heh, it’s a fair cop. I think my head cold might be interfering with my head thinky box stuff.
…unless the mom actually was just experimenting, and thinks that’s what her daughter is doing? It’s not right to impose upon your child that your experiences are what is “acceptable and ideal”, but that’s probably not what the mom thinks she’s doing.
This house is a fucking prison.
Yeah, this is why Becky is all sorts of selflessly. To help Joyce she went willingly to a home and a community that was very likely to pull this exact stunt and she’s in for a long weekend of passive-aggressive comments and probably at least one “intervention” for her soul. Perhaps on Sunday when they go to Church (oh dear Bob will that be a mess).
She’s incredibly brave and strong, but this weekend is going to be even rougher and more dehumanizing for her than it will be for Joyce.
This. Becky’s behaviour in panels 1,3,4, and 5 is particularly telling after readers were calling her tactless and thoughtless just for saying hi to Hank. She’s clearly showing the self awareness she’s been accused of lacking pretty much since she became a regular cast member. In panel 1, she’s happily greeting Mrs Brown, clearly wanting to stay on good terms with her as well as Hank, and also clearly trying to be her usual happy go lucky self while Joyce is in the room. Panels 3 and 4 are, I think, a rare glimpse of the Becky beneath that persona. She’s clearly nervous around Carol, and is holding back, trying to be withdrawn to avoid drama or a confrontation (not that she should have to). And her expression in panel 5 is just a picture of disappointment, at Mrs Brown for being that awful passive aggressive through a smiling facade type of Christian, and quite possibly at herself for hoping she could get through this weekend without having to put up with this BS.
Please research “paragraphs”. They make reading long posts so much more enjoyable for the rest of us!
Loosen the bow tie, I think it’s restricting bloodflow.
Well, it is generally difficult to read long paragraphs, especially when they become ridiculously thin and compact due to the comment system.
There are probably paragraphs there.
They’re just hard to distinguish because this system requires double enters for paragraphs to be easily visible and that’s not necessarily intuitive.
I think you’re very much correct on that!
I like “passive aggressive through a smiling facade” enough to acronymize it. Mrs. Brown is a PATASF Christian, I just came back from a cringeful dinner at my PATASF in-laws where they spent the whole meal pleading with us to have lots of unprotected sex in order to make grandchildren for them to spoil, etc.
Nice reference there.
WOW, I heard that song on the radio forever ago and forgot to look it up, THANK YOU
I love this response with all of my bitter little soul.
you know, i’m feeling the sentiment there, but i’m not too enthused about the transmisogyny in the song.
Clicked through to the link… yeaaaaah, this.
Maybe Fran was FtM? I mean I know that’s not usually the case when that sort of joke is made, but to be fair, they don’t really clarify.
Also I’d like to believe that the Flight of the Concords are better people, not to mention better comedians than that, because I like them. :l
That’s the way it came across to me. It makes more sense in context that it’s Fran’s discovery of gender identity. Or at any rate, at least the excuse of such discovery used for breakup.
It actually wasn’t until 8 hours after the parent comment that I realized an interpretation other than FtM.
Maybe I just hang out with the right people.
Unfortunately, watching the video and its visuals and I just went back to double-check that I wasn’t being unfair, we’ve got a picture of Fran looking like a punky, but tall cis woman and then she goes inside and it’s “lol” out steps a much older man with longer scraggly hair (which isn’t even the same color), wearing a slightly feminine shirt and then shrugging.
Now, trans men are totally allowed to have long hair, but by the framing, it’s pretty clear the intention of the joke is “lol, predatory trans women are just trying to trick you into dating men by wearing wigs and makeup” and are “actually men”.
Which is, sadly, a very common “joke”. So common, I would say it’s one of the 5 core stereotypes* of how trans people are typically depicted in fiction.
But it’s also transmisogynist as fuck.
*1) noble victim who teaches the cis characters or audience a thing about life and vaguely not being awful to those ciphers of a character (think Rayon from Dallas Buyer’s Club, they usually have almost no characterization compared to the other characters)
2) sexual predator who is just a man who is using their “transness” to spy on the “opposite” gender or buy entry into single-gendered spaces, usually for the purpose of being a creeper while there
3) the tragic brick who will never “pass”, so their protestations of being a woman are encouraged to be laughed at, because look at their football player physique or deep voice or hairy arms, how absurd, right?
4) the deceiver, like in this one, she looks so cis and passes so cis, but later they’ll be a reveal where she takes off her wig or reveals or is revealed to have junk and then everyone can make a big show of how disgusted they are by her and her “deception”
5) the psycho/killer, whose psychotic murdery ways is clearly foretold by their scary “deviant” behavior dressing up in the “wrong” gender’s clothes, and who is physically dangerous to be around. May also apply to trans men characters who are depicted as becoming dangerous abusive bullies due to “testosterone poisoning”, flying into uncontrollable rages and so on.
I think you’re mishearing the lyrics. “Fran ran, Bruce turned out to be a man” – they’re two different people. Also, since it’s a song about how all his past lovers have left him, it seemed to me that it was Bruce who broke it off.
Ok, fair cop, but “Bruce” is definitely still presented in a way that’s typically more a presentation of trans women by transphobes than trans men, right down the scraggly long hair, slightly feminine button-down shirt, and the being played by a cis dude. Which still makes that character at least transmisogynist as fuck and actually even worse than I heard it the first times because “Bruce” doesn’t even get her real name, just this dead name and a joke about her being a dude.
And hell even if it that part was about a trans man, the song is still titled Carol Brown (Choir of Ex-Girlfriends) and the “choir” scenes “Bruce” is in are referred to directly as a choir of ex-girlfriends so even if we were to extend that much undeserved credit, the singer is still misgendering the “Bruce” character.
And now that I’ve been through the whole thing 3 times, I will also point out that it definitely did leave me feeling gross as fuck, which is also pretty common for transphobic “jokes” in popular media.
The fact that you keep putting the word “joke” in quotations makes me think I hit a nerve. I’d like to clarify that I’m trans myself, MtF no less, so I know how seriously friggin annoying, insulting, demeaning, belittling, etc etc etc it can be to hear/see/read that type of thing over and over again. Like I said though, it’s not really clarified what they meant. While I admit that it’s probably more likely they were going for a cheap laugh, from what I’ve seen of Flight of the Concords in the past, they seem a little bit more high brow than that, so I’d rather give them the benefit of the doubt for now rather than jump the gun and just assume the worst.
Nah, it wasn’t directed towards you. But as for your point:
I guess, I’m just having a hard time believing that it’s about a trans man because the visuals in the music video (though I guess my major potential flaw here is assuming that they have any creative control over the videos) use so many visual shorthands that scream trans woman analogue. There’s played by cis dude, long hair, slightly open, feminine cut shirt, and so on. Now, a trans dude can totally have all of those (minus maybe the being played by a cis dude) and all power to him being a damn badass, but the visual shorthand would not easily lend itself in that direction in the video at least.
That all being said, I’m not going to say anyone should not enjoy the song or the band because of a problematic moment. We all enjoy problematic entertainment material all the time and it’s downright easy for a creator to slip up and make an “easy” joke and not be aware of how that comes off to someone marginalized.
As you say, you enjoy the Flight of the Concords and they have a higher brow type of comedy. That isn’t diminished or removed if they have a video with a single messed-up visual joke in the same way that Willis’s excellent track record wouldn’t be ruined if he fucked up and wrote something accidentally transphobic in a panel.
I don’t want to defend this song too much (it clearly has issues, namely making a cheap and fast choke about trans persons without reflecting the implications), but i also got the impression that it’s about FtM, so Bruce is his real name now and “Ex-Girlfriends” implies “persons that were his girlfriends in the past” – allowing the interpretation of “when Bruce and i were in a relationship, we both assumed that his sex/gender was female. Turned out we both were wrong”.
I’m not going to try to speak for the creators, but my impression was “I wanted to ask out this hot-looking woman, but when I got a chance to ask her out, it turned out she was a man named Bruce, and since I am a straight man, it wasn’t going to work out.” Doesn’t have to have any trans implications, just simple mistaken identity. If they meant otherwise, I have no idea.
Amazi-Stool, that’s how I thought it went. “Brenda” left Jemaine, and is still finding himself (Bruce).
True story- when I first had any exposure to trans issues, I asked my mother and she said “transsexuals are gay men who pretend to be women to sleep with other men.” No joke. It was backed up by the sort of media my parents consumed too.
Small wonder I needed to really distance myself from them before I could start my own transition…
A little joke is immediately transmisogyny. That’s a bit of a sad statement. Plus if you listen carefully, he sings “Bruce turned out to be a man” which is just a joke on Jemaine rather than on Bruce. Bruce is the manliest name there is is.
Well, yeah, jokes can be transphobic. Just like jokes can be racist or sexist or homophobic or ableist. In fact, jokes that are variations of that tend to be super common because they tend to become core “jokes” that are very easy to throw up for an easy laugh from a cisgender audience (and most of your audience can be presumed to be cis).
The “whoops, trans, lol, clearly a dude, right” joke is a very rehashed one, often because to people who don’t understand what they’re doing, it seems a silly visual to think of a woman who’s all dudely. It’s a cheap visual gag to “punch up” a bit and can be a way to lol at the protagonist who was so “dumb” or “unmanly” to sleep with a “man”.
And the thing is that this has genuine real life consequences. A huge number of the trans women murdered every year tend to be because a guy tried to “defend back” his masculinity after being attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman by murdering said trans woman to prove that he is still “manly” and was merely tricked by an evil deceiver. And jokes that reinforce that idea of “lol, you slept with a trans woman, ha ha” end up being a large part of why cis dudes who murder trans women feel they need to do that, because Bob damnitt, they’re not going to be made into a joke by some (slur for a gay man).
I know that makes me a bit of a killjoy to say, but how we shape humor matters a lot to how people are treated in the world.
“And my dad threatened to murder your daughter. Even if you don’t care about that, the police do. He put himself in prison.”
Carol would just say he wouldn’t have ‘had to’ go that far if Becky hadn’t deviated from his interpretation of God’s plan.
I’m afraid you have me; I don’t think Becky has the philosophical inclination to point out that a god’s plan that includes threatening murder is a false god, and thus Ross and Carol are both apparently satanists.
I don’t disagree with your general stance, but I don’t see your rationale on threatening murder having anything to do with God being real or false. God could be real and just be a psychopath.
yeah, its odd how that sort of possibility doesn’t get traction.
Its either “loving god who has to do stuff we just dont understand” or “no god”.
“arsehole god”
“absent god”
“god who was just fucking about and we are all accidents”
“god who is allpowerfull but incompetent”
and “god who, you know, tries his best”
The problem is that this sect of Fundamentalist Christianity worships asshole God. They know God is down with killing, God has killed before, God has ordered killing before, and his wrath to stop Satan and sin is brutal and terrifying. These are the type of people who think God would send terrorists to bomb buildings or giant natural storms just to protest the number of abortion clinics or gay bars in a city or because a country has too many atheists.
They believe in a ticking time bomb of a deity and they’re just scrambling to stay on his good side before he hits the fuck-it switch and raptures up the only few who could cling to his long laundry list of hate and self-denial properly so they can be denied the shit-show of his orbital target practice against humanity and the demonic hordes.
Firstly I want to clarify that by “false god” I didn’t mean “no god”. Becky is probably still a christian and thus probably still believes in god. However as a fundie-raised christian, she was doubtlessly also raised to believe in the actual existence of other gods, who do exist but are wrong to follow: golden calves, Baal, Satan, rock & roll and so on. So anyway it’s entirely possible that the bad parents are worshiping something real, just something that’s not THE god and thus isn’t right.
And to Cerberus’s point I can only say that Joyce sure thought she believed in a decent god, and I doubt that she’d agree that her god endorses collateral damage or threats thereof in the pursuit of taking their child. (Heck, she probably doesn’t reeeeally buy into Deuteronomy 21:18-21’s explicit endorsement of murdering just the rebellious child.)
Which is not to say that Carol believes in the same god that Joyce does. It seems likely at this point that Joyce got some of her beliefs from her father, who similarly doesn’t appear to embrace the psychopathy that the bible is marbled with.
Who cares whether they’re a false god? Regardless of godhood, if you’re going to be an asshole, you deserve to be punished and have it explained to you exactly why you should stop.
If you say that, then you don’t love your own daughter. You think murder of your daughter is more acceptable than sexual deviancy.
Well, of course, she does, a murdered daughter simply goes to Heaven and we’re all going to Heaven soon thanks to the Rapture. Whereas a “sexual deviant” daughter will be thrown out of the kingdom of Heaven to suffer in Hell for all eternity due to her sin. And even her having a “sexual deviant” friend is a major risk because that friend could corrupt her enough to deny her her sweet meal ticket to the hereafter when the Rapture comes.
… and I really wish this was not literally what people like Carol frequently believe. And yes, it is terrifying to live around. Especially when you have the reputation as the “weird queer kinda atheist” kid.
There is no truer love then murdering all your babies the second they’re baptized, because only at that moment can you be sure they haven’t sinned again yet and imperiled their salvation.
Mormons have it easier – they can murder their kids anytime up until they kids are eight years old and the kid will be guaranteed the highest level of heaven. If they wait any longer than that they’re gambling with their kids’ souls, and is that really a risk they should be taking?
You and Cerberus, what you are talking about is something that irks me so, so deeply about religion. It’s painful to even think about. The fact that people don’t kill their newborns to make sure they get to heaven untainted though is something that confuses me. It makes me think they be hypocrites… I don’t know what makes me more angry, the fact that people say these things about what they believe and they don’t actually act on it, or that somewhere in their beliefs there is such a thing like this that they can justify it to themselves.
In other words:
If newborns are pure and sinless, why don’t the parents make sure they remain untainted and just “send them to heaven”? and;
Why is the religion written in such a way that people could present this as a reason to kill their children?
I can’t answer the first question, but as far as “why is the religion written in such a way”: You have to consider that the early adherents of this religion (if we’re talking strictly about the material from the Ancient Hebrew sources) lived a generally nomadic lifestyle, with few reliable, stationary resources – especially once you introduce the problem of migratory livestock and seasonal rains playing roles as primary resources. You can read plenty about the lifestyle here: http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/culture_nomads.html
To summarize, however: the tribe’s ability to function as a peaceful society of about 25-50 people, most of whom were related, was a responsibility that rested upon the shoulders of darn near everyone in it.
In such a situation, you would have had to consider how to collectively approach, manage, and survive the following problems:
⦁ (Poorly-understood) communicable diseases
⦁ The tangible resource cost of wastefulness
⦁ The inestimable cost of insubordination (up to and including “schism or collapse of the tribe”)
⦁ Conflicts with enemy tribes and predators
⦁ The dangers of slavers to individuals and the tribe as a whole
⦁ Hospitality towards non-enemies encountered while on the move (remember, the environment itself was basically hostile towards the ill-equipped, so a tribe that could provide shelter and sustenance was expected to do so, especially if it had a stable grip on its territory)
⦁ Behvaing in accordance with the superstitions accompanying the tribe’s religion, so as to avoid provoking a Wrath of God scenario
Given all of these and more variables, there was not really a whole lot of room for “well I don’t agree with your ideology, dad, so I’m going to do things MY way” within the tribe. Insubordination could very easily get you or someone else killed if you went against your elders, and it wouldn’t necessarily even be a scenario where anyone wanted it to happen; you could accidentally give a tactical advantage to an enemy tribe, or lose or destroy some or all of the tribe’s food or manufacturing resources, get the whole tribe sick, and so on and so forth.
Take that together with the notion of “religion-as-lifestyle-guide”, and the sort of ad-hoc-but-hand-me-down religion that encapsulated the majority of an average nomad’s basic understanding of the world, and it becomes clear why “because this is what God wants” might have been the explanation the tribe came up with for darn near everything they saw or imagined the need to have happen.
—
Of course, none of the above excuses child-killing in the modern age, but back then it would have been an acceptable option to prevent a possible disaster for the tribe. Nowadays, in our far more populous and stable society, individuals having a distorted and very-far-removed-from-context understanding of such ancient religions are the primary reason that beliefs such as the ones begbert and Cerberus mention are even possible.
And unfortunately, this is a better explanation for the behavior of modern “Christian” believers than for Mormons.
Nah.
I mean if you knew anything about Judaism, you’d know that it actually encourages not only questioning but actively arguing with God.
Our crappy translation of part of one of their holy books != Judaism.
The comment above was written in haste. Comment in haste, regret at leisure.
What I should’ve said is: generally-speaking, atheists in America are really only familiar with Christianity, and a lot of the things that we hate about “religion” are actually kind of unique to it.
Not all of them. But a lot.
And while we tend to know no more about Judaism than we do about, say, Shintoism, we think we do, because we “know” the Old Testament. And we believe, wrongly, that it’s “basically the Jewish Bible”.
I was totally in that exact same place, for most of my life. The only Jewish people I had ever met were atheists. (And since it’s, y’know, an ethno-religion, very much unlike Christianity, there are a lot of Jewish atheists.) Only very recently have I started talking to Jewish people about Judaism, and antisemitism, and so on.
:\ So I took this very superior tone with you, and it wasn’t at all warranted, and I’m sorry about that. If it helps at all, my tone was not really about you. Reading your comment made me really mad at myself, and what I used to think I knew. That plus the fact that I was running out the door… yeah. It’s not a great defense, and again I’m sorry. I’d delete the original comment if I could.
Hey, Li, just want you to know that at least one person did see your first reply… But also has now seen the reply to the reply, which clears up a lot, and also contains what I think of as a proper apology.
As someone who really hates non-apology apologies, I’m really happy for that second reply. And the first reply is, in my head-canon, considered to never have happened.
Li, saw both your replies. The nesting feature of this comment system abruptly slamming into the right margin and screwing everyone’s comprehension of it up past a certain level of hierarchy unfortunately makes it unclear whether you were replying to me or not, but presuming that you were, all I have to say is this:
I wasn’t commenting on Judaism specifically. Rather, I was commenting on the common “Christian” understanding of the material borrowed from it, and the distortions of it that have become commonplace since Christianity co-opted and disseminated that admittedly limited range of material.
I would also like to point out that I was not engaging in high scholarly discourse. I was simply making note of the fact that the common practitioners of religions that have survived from ancient times, in particular those of Christianity, have many reasons why their perspective might be too far removed from their religion’s original context to have a functional understanding of some of its historical tenets, or even of its related anecdotes.
That said, I am in no position to be pedagogical about Judaism, and would love to hear you elaborate on the topic if you so desire.
My intent was to provide a reference to a resource that I felt was reliable enough for basic discourse on the lifestyle from which it arose. I’m sorry if I’ve failed in any regard.
thanks mom
Wow Carol! That’s a very subtle way of saying “sinner”.
Nonono. “Sinner” doesn’t quite encapuslate the “your whole ordeal is your fault rather than the gun-toting monster-dad’s fault” element of it.
Then Willis speaks, in the loving words of Andrius:
“I will re-unite [her] broken family. I will give them all the hope in this world. I will bring peace and love into their hearts… Then I will destroy them. And, truly, a sheep’s meat is sweeter when it is blindly led to greener pastures. Fear and suffering only sours it. Do you not feel the hope up there on the ship’s deck? This vessel is drowning in it. Let these humans marinate in their hope. The most delicious meal of [my] life awaits,” says Willis as he prepares to feast on our happiness as our empty husks begin to whither.
This not true!!!! Willis would never…. ::runs and sobs in the corner while drinking straight from a bottle of very strong alcohol::
I’m honestly wondering how likely it is that Joyce’s mom and dad will still be together in five years. Sure, Hank was not terribly nice about Dorothy at first, but HE got over it, and he’s certainly racking up the points so far since his return. How similar ARE he and Carol at this point, anyway? Is it possible that only doctrine has really been keeping them together?
Well, the sex is also mind-blowing.
Someone's angling for a slipshine.The fact that it is in a different font makes it seem like a more likely possibility, somehow. That’s what I’m hoping, at least 🙂
Actually I picked that up from other sites’ comments sections which use that particular font for sarcasm, but I really wouldn’t be opposed to the idea of a Slipshine anthology with the forty/fiftysomethings.
Ehh. The anthology I saw was a little disappointing; snapshots are by nature less well-developed than full scenes.
Shoot! We’re becoming predictable!
You made me think of something. Didn’t they have a Kama Sutra in some other comic? If that’s ‘canon’ here, you could blow that up to mean that their sex life is actually terrible, and they were looking for ways to ‘spice it up’. From there, it’s a short leap to ‘they were already having marriage problems’. Then again, sex isn’t everything, and this is an awful lot of assumption.
Two adults in a marriage are not in the same place on a highly charged issue, very complicated from their theological background, that might well have rocked their church community just a week ago.
Yes, it COULD be a problem. No, it’s not a significant indication that the marriage is on the rocks. After all, we’ve seen how Hank processes theological differences with Joyce, and I’m sure he’s capable of doing something similar with Carol.
Psh, I think people this religious would rather die than “disgrace” themselves with a divorce.
Oh no no don’t be mistaken! Christian’s are totally more forgiving of “NORMAL” sins like divorce, just not the “ULTRA BAD” sins like being gay!
Well that makes sense, gays are ruining the sanctity of marriage after all.
Aren’t they Protestant? Divorce isn’t an issue for Protestants, is it?
Ahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahah
Depends on the church really. Most of the mainstream ones are OK with it,
although many disapprove on it in principle.
Basically the more fundamentalist/evangelical you go, the more disapproving they get , until you get the churches (even quite mainstream ones) that will do anything to prevent it and ignore familial abuse and convince wives to stay with abusive partners when they go to the pastors for help. And then you get the totally bat shit insane ones like the quiverful movement.
TLDR: its complicated
Speaking as someone who used to be involved with the Ray Comfort strain of Protestantism, it’s generally frowned upon and only allowed because divorces are handled by secular government courts.
We do know of famous historic counterexamples not very much in disfavor for divorce.
Based on Willis’ whole “Joyce is me” shitck? Not very.
Your premise contradicts your conclusion.
I think he is saying that since Joyce is autobiographical and Willis’ parents got divorced, there is a pretty good chance that Joyce’s parents also get divorced.
We haven’t actually seen indications that Hank’s okay with Dorothy yet, but he’s accepted that Joyce is allowed to make her own decisions.
Consider that, to varying degrees, this household is Willis unpacking his baggage about his own childhood.
Right down to the mother being much more into this than the father.
I mean yeah, it could end differently than it did with his parents, but the signs are already there.
did his parents get divorced?
Yes.
autobiographical = Big Divorce
I think the issue is that the threat to their daughter provoked very different reactions from the two parents: Hank is seeing the incident as a positive sign about his daughter’s environment (because the people around Joyce basically pulled together and resolved a dangerous situation) and had his faith in the Christian community shaken severely by one of their own going off the deep end. Carol felt the same spike of fear for Joyce, but reacted by wanting to pull her daughter back in and blames the decision to “let” her go outside the community as the reason Joyce was ever in danger in the first place (essentially she’s still thinking that she’s the parent, and it’s her fault for letting her daughter wander into danger).
The conflict is _expressing_ as an argument over Becky, but I think the root of it is that they’ve spent twenty years married to someone they thought was their soul-mate in every respect, and they’re just now realizing on a subconscious level that they are actually very different people in outlook. Like, by disagreeing over how to parent their daughter, they’re disagreeing over something that they both consider more important than their marriage, and that in itself is screwing things up even more.
(Apparently my life story is making me the divorce-whisperer of the comments section. Go figure.)
Divorce Whisperer!
With the last kid out of the house, I suspect that Jocelyne might be the breaking point of the marriage.
In five years?
At the pace of this comic this means:
We will never know!
Probably when Willis’ own kids are old enough to go to college.
Maybe his kids will inherit the comic and do the sophomore year. 🙂
One year of school per generation.
On the bright side, Joyce’s mom has a nice ass.
no
Booty and the person it’s attached to are two separate things Mantis.
Just imagine in
thirtytwenty years that could be Joyce’s butt.noooo
i cant imagine that without imagining bigotry and ignorance crammed into each cheek
No no, just imagine that all the good and accepting things about her all went straight to her butt. Just like how anything decent about Toedad went to his chin.
NOW IM IMAGINING TOEDAD WITH CAROLS BUTT AND CAROL WITH TOEDADS CHIN
EW NO NO NO
Going to grab some brain bleach.
ABANDON SHIP!
Someone draw this…
>.>
<.<
WELP
Gimme a week or so, I’m buried in schoolwork lately
(claws out eyes)
EVERYTHING IS RUINED FOREVER
I am fairly certain that is not where those things are stored.
I keep all my dignity and self-worth in my feet.
My constantly aching feet.
I hope you are joking.
You can’t joke about booty. That’s like Cardinal rule No.5
♫ A little bit of Fanny, on my mind… ♫
Where I am from fanny is slang for a different part of female anatomy
I agree, she is a fantastic ass.
Not that nice though.
I really wish there was a way to do emoticons on here. Instead have this.
smug grin with nodding head
I am pretty sure there is!
Let’s try this: ☺
Yep, worked! (if you can’t see it, your font doesn’t support that Unicode character).
The code is: ća;
Sorry, wrong! There must be an “x” after the number sign!
☺
Another one: f63c;
Well that didn’t work for some reason!
Try again, now as f63c;
f63c;
Boo to myself, i forgot the x! 😼
😼
I want to disagree but when you’re right you’re right.
oh, nice.
family drama incoming.
Where have you been? We’ve been shouting “Family Drama Incoming!” for over a month now.
Yes, but that was “Proceed with caution” prediction. Now it’s happening, and we’re bracing for the main impact.
…yeah, that’s kinda what I expected from her.
I suppose it was too much to hope for that we’d be 2 for 2 on good parents.
Only Dorothy/Mike/Sierra/Dina are allowed to go two for two.
I’m not so sure about Mike’s parents. It’s really sorta terrible to force physical contact on others.
not as bad as being a bigot tho
mike’s parents are objectively in the top five parents in this strip
Fair enough, but “not as bad” =/= “good”
Their parenting produced Mike. Need I say more?
(I’m still operating on the theory that they’ve been trolling Mike for his entire life.)
A TrollDad tends to inspire some degree of cynicism.
I subscribe to the theory that Mike was born angry. He came out of the womb with that scowl on his face.
When Blaine was after Amber, I really wanted him to get waylaid by Mike’s parents, who would be so unfailingly and aggressively polite that he wouldn’t be able to find her.
The problem is that a large cast of characters needs variety and good parents don’t provide that. All happy families are alike. Each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.
This actually isn’t true, happy families can be very very very different.
What they don’t provide, though, is DRAMA.
To be fair, she’s not being a bongo to her DAUGHTER tonight, so she hasn’t landed in the “bad parent” camp, yet.
“Bad human being, at least at this moment”, she’s in THAT camp.
Just wait till she finds a way to blame Joyce for the attempted rape.
Just.
Watch.
Yeah… there’s a very good reason Joyce hasn’t even thought about mentioning that one to her parents. That community tends to have… “interesting” views about the “morality” of girls who get raped or almost raped.
I’m not sure Joyce has thought that far. Her only comment was a worry about pulling her out of school. We haven’t even seen any signs that she’s internalized that idea. We’ve certainly seen the denial and her PTSD/fear of being attacked again.
I don’t think she’s thinking about that consciously, but I think she’s probably internalized it. It’s probably a big part of why she is so strongly in denial about admitting it ever happened. “Nice girls” don’t go to parties, they don’t be alone with boys and they definitely don’t get date-raped.
(Survivor of childhood sexual assault, who has been told in exactly so many words by my father that “every victim contributes one very important thing to the situation without which an assault couldn’t happen: herself.” and that “it’s nice to say rape is wrong but when are we going to talk about every person’s responsibility for their own safety?” and that “some of these girls go around wearing so little, it’s like sticking a steak out in front of a dog. Is it any wonder bad stuff happens?” and so on and so forth. See also yet another reason why I rarely visit my folks and am just this side of estranged from them. Because I am tired of being blamed for something I was absolutely 0% at fault for.)
Anyway, to that camp, anything short of an attacker ambushing you from the bushes in broad daylight while you’re walking to church with a large group of friends in a baggy blob of a wholesome modest outfit and beating the shit out of you as you fight back like a rabid honey badger isn’t “legitimate” and you’re “partly responsible” for it. It’s all personal responsibility don’tchakno. If you didn’t “want” to be raped, why didn’t you fight back? Why were you there? Why were you wearing that? Why didn’t you say no? You did say no, why didn’t you scream? why didn’t you fight? Why didn’t you raise a fuss? Okay, why didn’t you raise more of a fuss? I could go on.
I am sadly not exaggerating at all. I got grilled like that, and I was eight on my way to school on the school bus when I was assaulted for the time I disclosed. The situations since then, I’ve normally not told anyone about because I’ve been through it once and I don’t need the extra trauma of having everything I did and said and wore examined under a microscope to see whether I’m a “victim” or a victim-victim. It’s just, words fail me to describe how utterly awful it is to go to someone for help and have that person play Monday morning quarterback with your life and basically tell you that the bad thing that happened to you was your fault and if you’d just done [thing you were unable to do at the time], it wouldn’t have happened. And then act like you’re the unreasonable one when you get upset about it.
Same group also acts like if a person does fight an attacker off or avoid an attack from a creeper, that should be viewed as 100% good and they’re not allowed to be scared or traumatized by it at all. See, me fighting off a dude who tried to grab me in the parking lot on my way back to res at uni (after seeking help from security because he was following me all over campus and basically being told that they’d deal with it when he did something “real”) should be viewed as a triumph because “nothing bad” happened. Like being stalked, dismissed, ridiculed and then violently attacked for reasons unknown is “nothing bad” and I should just let it roll off me because I was able to “take responsibility” for my safety (by being a second degree black belt, which had required years of training and preparation) and fight them off. But thing is, and Willis gets this but so many people don’t: a close call is still fucking terrifying. It’s still traumatizing. It’s still an assault. It still makes you feel ashamed and humiliated and nauseous and dirty and terrible. It’s still something that can give you nightmares and make it hard to walk through that parking lot at that same time of day. But the folks in that camp, they’ll either blame the victim, or they act like the victim’s not a victim at all because they were able to get out of the situation before the sexual assault became a rape. Even the cops and security people are like that – I have a friend who did report to the cops in my city after she was sexually assaulted, and the cop taking her report told her, “I’m sorry that happened to you but I don’t understand why you didn’t do anything. I could never let a man rape me like that.” And, for me, I didn’t report the parking lot thing because I just knew I was going to get, “So if the guy was creeping you out, why did you walk out alone?” and I knew that “I waited in the library for over an hour and had no luck getting a security escort because they apparently don’t want to baby ‘little girls who are scared of the dark’ and I couldn’t stay there all night and I didn’t see him out there so I figured he’d given up and left” was going to be judged “good” enough to be a proper victim rather than some irresponsible slut who wasn’t exercising good judgement. And I just wasn’t in a headspace to deal with the judgement and derision and disgust. I had enough of my own going on.
My guess is Joyce is asking herself all those terrible blamey questions, too, and second-guessing her actions and re-running what happened that night in her head over and over and I’m guessing she has been since it happened. I’m also guessing she’s not in a headspace where she can take hearing them from anyone else which is part why she’s keeping it so quiet. And I’m guessing she especially doesn’t want the crowing, smug “Good for you! I hope you gave him what he deserved! See, this is what happens when someone refuses to be a victim!” treatment. Annndyeah.
Not sure where I’m going with this, just I hate the “let’s put the victim on trial” mentality we have, and I also hate the “don’t let yourself be a victim” talk because depending on who it’s employed against it’s gaslighting or blaming the victim and in either case it’s terrible and entirely not okay. I hate that “legitimate rape” is a phrase that exists in common vernacular. And I really hate this idea that there are “good” victims and there are “victims” and a “good” victim isn’t actually a victim because they fought and screamed and should be instead called a “survivor” or something similarly pseudo-empowering which can be used to dismiss and belittle their trauma, and a “victim” isn’t actually a victim because they brought it on themselves and deserved it.
Ugh. Talking about sexual assault makes me want to burn everything. I’m gonna go look at photos of cats being adorably silly now.
Oh my word, all of this. So much all of this. And it’s infuriating how prevalent the victim-blaming culture is and how much it’s ramped up in “traditional morality” cultures.
Also? *all the ginormous appropriate gestures of support* You are awesome and I know how much it takes to talk about stuff like that, so just thank you for that.
If it helps:
https://www.google.com/search?q=cute+kittens&espv=2&biw=1137&bih=908&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjNssiCrPXKAhVM0WMKHbfhBl0Q_AUIBigB
8~~~({
Can’t think of anything adequate to say, so penguins.
ischemgeek:
You. Are. Beyond. Words.
It is honestly difficult to read your story. It is hard to know what is worse: The assaults and rapes themselves; or the fact that “everyone” around you ended up basically tolerating and condoning those assaults. The latter is what allows the former to keep on happening. They try to make you less than human; which really is the biggest sin of all.
That you are even … (gods, the words “somehow functional” is so despicable in some ways, but it’s the best I have at the moment)… in a society that time and again has spat on you is… Well, “amazing” doesn’t even start to cover it.
You deserve so much better than just having strangers telling you these things. What you deserve is… Well, if I could give you proper, true, peace of mind, I would in a heartbeat.
I seriously hope not.
Oh, I’ve had her squarely in the “bad parent” camp since the phone call.
And Cerberus is right, the woman does tend to get blamed for anything sexual in fundamentalist communities. I’d elaborate, but those stories aren’t really mine to tell. Suffice to say that I know of parents who’ve blamed their own daughters.
But Joyce’s Dad surprised me. Maybe her Mom will too. Maybe.
What the hell kind of mom sees her recently-held-at-gunpoint daughter for the first time since the trauma, and RAIN CHECKS on a hug? “Glad you’re alive but this casserole is more important”
Because that’s pretty mega bongo to me. Especially after her daughter stood up to her on the phone. Her response is to withhold affection. BON-GO.
So when are you allowed to be sure you’re a lesbian?
When you’re married with two children and don’t have the emotional strength to break off the relationship and double down on self-loathing while still falling into your prescribed role as parent, spouse and het partner.
No, then it becomes “If you were REALLY a lesbian, you would have known sooner.”
Yeah, it’s always too soon to know for certain or so late it must be fake because if it was real you would know for certain. Bonus points if the same person is using both at the same time (one of my parents did that once, it was… boggling to say the least).
It is like space travel. There is a narrow little window, and you have to move at exactly the right time, at just the right angle, with the perfect amount of thrust …
I’d best stop now…
I’m pretty sure there’s a test for this.
When your name is a strong indicator?
What, like “Leslie Bean” ?
OMG!
According to this breed of Christianity? NEVER.
According to Dina, after extensive empirical examination, testing, and peer review.
… and she won’t even realize what that implies.
When you walk upon the moor at a quarter past midnight and the heralds do proclaim through sky and yonder that yes, “thou art gay as fuck” and lo, the heron’s beak doth open revealing the complementary rainbow pin and free toaster and lo, it is officially proclaimed, thou art a lesbian.
…isn’t that a Shakespeare sonnet?
I’m glad people remember the toaster. It’s a very important part of our recruitment process even in the days of iPhones.
The real question is when are you allowed to be unsure? Cuz a question like Carol’s would make me go on the defensive reeeeal quick.
I’m very happy that Becky can confidently say what her sexuality is in her late teens (as many of the commenters could apparently) but I feel like it almost undercuts how fucking awful Carol’s line of questioning is. Becky should be allowed to be unsure of her sexuality without a third-person loudly second guessing, and she should be allowed to feel upset and conflicted about her father, and Carol is denying her both of those in one go.
I am in my late 20s and couldn’t really say what my sexuality was until a couple years ago. In part because of the are you SURE/how do you KNOW mindfuckery.
This: and I was trying to cement my identity as somewhere just barely to the right of a Heterosexual (cis man), wherein I can appreciate Thor’s abs; because– have you seen those abs?
The rock-hard abs aside my point is that if I, in searching for my identity, and finding it to be what is considered in bounds of “the norm,” received enough unwarranted “mindfuckery” comments about it that I eventually needed to say, “Listen and hear you little shits. Shut up.” to any and all who continued to poke fun only to be told “they’re just jokes,” I can’t begin to fathom the sort of painful douche-baggery people who find themselves to be anything but heterosexual and cis have to deal with.
And that is just the verbal and mental component of it. The fact is, that I was privileged enough to never be physically assaulted because of my identity. It never got past “jokes” for me (about this subject– I got physically assaulted for other things, just not being hetero and cis). Jokes that ain’t jokes. The abusive and borderline abusive remarks designed to undermine what little security I have in my identity because they’ve been insulting me by calling me a girl and a gay for years (which aren’t really even insults: they just hurt like it because it’s not what I am), because I act in a flamboyant and effeminate manner.
So yeah, this, this’s horse and the horse this’s horse rode in on.
Personally? I think everyone should be allowed to be unsure and even pick an identity they feel best fits them even if there’s a more accurate one they find later that better suits where they are. Sometimes it’s like clothes and you have to try on a few to find the best fit.
But that’s for the person themselves. From the outside, you just accept wherever they are now and roll with it and keep your sass shut and never make comments like Carol’s that imply one’s identity to be a phase or that they are “wrong” and will figure out the “right” one with prodding. In large parts because of things like ischemgeek’s comments about how much that messes with a young kid just trying to figure themselves out with little to no guideposts.
With my students who are figuring themselves out, I’m a big fan of listening to them describe what they’re feeling and then give them a combination of more general resources that cover a lot of different identities as well as one’s that are written directly by people who share similar life experiences to what they’re describing.
I then tend to tell them that they don’t need to pick an identity if they don’t want to and it’s okay to be wrong about an identity and have to change it anyways and that we at the school will respect it no matter what. It’s seemed to have good effects so far.
It’s almost like identifying yourself primarily by your sexual preferences and behavior isn’t really a healthy way to go about building your identity, and adulthood is mostly the state of realizing you can’t really answer that question, but it doesn’t really matter.
If only there were a couple widespread religions that stood as massive historical examples of how badly training people to continue to focus on that as one of the fundamental building blocks of your ego well into your old age can go…
It’s almost as if not defining yourself primarily by your sexual preferences and behavior is really fucking hard when you get thrown out of school for it and your dad threatens you and your friends with a gun because of it.
Sometimes it’s the world that’s primarily defining you and all you can do is take it up as a badge of defiance.
This. If you don’t define yourself centrally as your identities, then the world will do it for you. When I first came out, I thought my transness was incidental, because I had good supportive friends and was in a strong supportive culture. Society quickly had other opinions about that when I came home to the States and coming out to more people. That’s when I learned that from now on my transness was all anyone was going to see for a loooooong while.
Unless of course you’re straight and cis – and probably white and male as well, in which case it’s easy to not define yourself as those things. You can think of yourself in other terms and not even realized you’ve been defined in way that let’s you do so.
You would think so, but it turns out that Cis Maleness is so incredibly fragile you have to defend it at all times. (“You hit like a girl” “You have not had sex at age 18, are you homo?”. “Since I’m a boy I can’t own more than one pair of shoes”). So yeah, not defining yourself in terms of sexuality and gender is pretty hard wherever you stand.
Aw crap, Bagge, I tripped over you saying pretty much the same thing.
It deserves to be said many times. Maybe if we say it often enough we can start to do something about it.
Well yeah, then you’re a person and can be anything… except exhibiting traits that can be mistaken as girly. If you do that, then you’re an honorary girl and all your uniqueness will be taken away lest you make a sacrifice of toxicity to demonstrate your right to be treated as a full person again.
I think that was the real subtext with Joe upbraiding Danny for turning Billie down. He is supposed to be a man and real men don’t turn down sex without a good reason.
There’s a lot of that. I got hit by that a lot when I was a baby ace and still thought I was a man. It was, real men droll over women all the time and want to describe them as meat. You’re not doing that. What’s wrong with you?
But what if I’m a straight cis white male and own the FUDGE out of it?
When you don’t, other people tend to do the job for you. Take Carol for instance. She defined Becky right away without letting her define herself.
Some people use a pick to break the ice, some use a battleship with a special hull.
Ah, Carol. The comments section was right to distrust you.
Well, at least there’s no awkward silence? *shrugs*
And there’s the other shoe.
Carol keeps this up, and I know where I want to put my other shoe.
Nice!
Doctor Who(op Ass)
Carol likes to resemble traditional female stereotypes, so she owns a lot of shoes to drop!
Riiiiight, it’s totally Becky’s fault that her dad is in prison. Not his.
Well no, it’s totally his fault. He kidnapped his daughter and fired a gun off on campus.
Wait.
Well, duh, she was relentlessly and unapologetically gay. Everyone knows that that sends secret mind-control rays out that cause people to grab their firearms and kidnap their children at gunpoint. This is like Fundie Science 101, people!
Same way gay marriage causes hurricanes and earthquakes, but on an individual scale.
That… that almost make sense. Or whatever passes as sense around here, I guess.
I just don’t see why anything has to be “worth” Toedad being in prison, when the latter condition is its own reward.
Of course it was. Don’t you remember the phone call?
“But at least he thought he was doing the right thing, right? I mean, put yourself in his shoes. He’s… he was just worried about his daughter.”
He was just trying to do the right thing, but using the wrong method. You know. Like Eric Robert Rudolph.
Yup, his “heart was in the right place” and the terrorist murdery bits is just their “passion taken to far” and “picking bad methods”, but it’s really understandable and heroic and…
It’s all pretty disgusting to witness in person.
Well damn.
“Hello Surrogate Daughter, should the man who abused you and almost killed my daughter REALLY be in jail. His crime wasn’t that bad.”
More like, “Why did you have to push him to do those things. Was it really worth making all this happen.”
(bluereghhhh)
Ahhh….victim shaming. Good times….good times. The sad part is it’s such a regular thing even in modern society.
She’s not saying his crime wasn’t bad; she’s saying that he never would have committed a crime had Becky pretended she was straight.
No, she’s not saying it wasn’t bad, she’s just saying it’s Becky’s bad.
Which is worse.
I agree. I guess I am lucky in that my parents are accepting of my brother and my sexualities. I really hope the dad starts to tell her off and then Joyce butts in and really chews into her mom.
Which is probably not true, in addition to being logically specious. Let’s be honest, aggravated felonies don’t come out of nowhere, if Toedad wasn’t already a violent criminal there’s no way it wasn’t just a matter of time.
Hank’s comments about wanting to punch the guy even before the incident speaks to a wealth of warning signs on that one that had nothing to do with lesbians.
I didn’t know my aunt was in this comic.
Yours, mine, and everyone else’s. Every family has at least one. They are the reason Thanksgiving sucks.
Not always. The worst thing my aunt does is set things on fire when nobody’s looking. Yes, I’m still calling that a step up.
Your aunt sounds like fun.
Can I come to your house this year? I’ll bring kerosene and a side dish.
Does you aunt wear glasses? If so, she might need a new prescription, like this guy.
Pyro must be Nonagon’s aunt then!
“Nonagon” has 7 letters. “Pyro” has 4 letters.
7 – 4 = 3
If an aunt sets a fire when no one can see it, do we make light?
My Aunt has schizophrenia, and I think I’d still more readily take life advice from her than from Joyce’s mother…
That’s my mother is who that is. This comic reminds me why I could only feel relief when she died.
I was going to say something similar. We live far away enough that she seldom sees her family… Which I think means she’s mostly flown under the radar.
I suspect that changed after her behaviour at my wedding, though. I won’t know since that’s when I cut ties.
So, after reading the last few days’ comics, and thinking of how Joyce is supposed to be autobiographical, and then remembering some of the stories Willis has told before, it occurred to me that Hank was likely the good parent, and it would be Joyce’s mom who’d turn out to be the toxic one.
Today’s strip is not disproving my theory.
Pretty much how it’s been portrayed all along.
“I’ve been sure for five years and Dad’s in jail because he threatened people with a gun, not because I’m gay.”
All of the this.
Just you wait until the judge reads the list of charges. We can’t be sure “First Degree Having a Gay Daughter” isn’t on there yet.
“My client pleads not guilty due to homosex, your honor!”
“Homosex?”
“Yes, in accordance with Article 6.9, which covers the gayitude of progeny.”
“Very well, case dismissed.”
But what if the prosecution files a writ of Habeus Cunnilingus?
The fact that that’s basically a real legal defense that is actually used crushes my soul.
She’s had, like, one girlfriend.
That’s misdemeanor having a gay daughter at worst. A few extra months in low-security, tops. Unless there was a strap-on involved, in which case it’s aggravated having a gay daughter, which is much more srs.
i really hope she says this and it works but there would be no drama if it did so it probably wont happen
WELP LOOKIT THAT CRATER THE SHOE MADE
The conversation train never had a chance to derail, it started out falling from 30,000 feet up.
I don’t like that smile, Carol, you condescending bongo. Fuck you and your snickerdoodles. And whatever is in that fucking pot/pan.
Those snickerdoodles were baked with hate. I wouldn’t eat ’em.
Paraphrasing Clerks II “You can’t taste homophobia!”
Yeah, forget them getting charred. Everything’s already burned to hell.
Eh. She wishes… (boom, rapture joke!)
I feel like your gravatar is appropriate.
Was Becky Joyce’s half sister in the original comics? :0
No? She’s never been related to Joyce in any universe. (She met Joyce in the Walkyverse after Walky and Joyce were already engaged)
I thought she knew Becky since childhood in that too? But there was this whole memory thing that made the abductees forget alot of their life…
Dont quote me on that I havent read “It’s Walky!” in a long time.
Lord Stoneheart is correct. Joyce met Becky when she started looking for a normal friend to hang out with.
Well fuck okay
and here we go.
*plays the Monkees’ “Auntie Grizelda” on the hacked home stereo*
Wow mrs. brown not even 10 seconds after they walk in you have to make it awkward😆
10 seconds in DoA is 24 hours in real time?
That would explain alot
It’s just that with all the joking about the passage of time I don’t recall comparisons of seconds passing in the comic (as opposed to days, weeks, months and years) prior to this day.
Can’t wait to see where this goes. Joyce’s mom always struck a nerve with me when she was first introduced. What she doesn’t seem to understand is that it’s Becky’s dad fault he’s in prison not Becky. And if she can’t understand that then she’s just as bad as her father.
First introduced? You mean when she was struggling to haul a bag full of Joyce’s stuffed animals to her dorm room? What’s wrong with that?
I think you know what they meant :I
She’s not trying to understand anything. She’s simply deciding that whichever parts of reality agree with scripture must be correct.
Her internal reasoning goes something like this:
“Becky deciced to be a lesbian, but the bible says homosexuality is wrong. Ross tried to save her from homosexuality, but was stopped and sent to jail. Therefore Ross is in jail because Becky decided to be a lesbian.”
Close, but considerin’ they don’t seem to be very good at turning the other cheek or loving their neighbor, I’m gonna assume that it’s “whichever parts of reality agree with what I’ve heard scripture says must be correct.”
This is actually my problem with fundamentalist christians; their religion seems to be less about following the teachings of christ and more about worshipping Paul, the Man Who Knew Jesus Better than People Who Actually Met Him. The big man himself never said a damn thing about homosexuality in any of the gospels written by people who knew him.
Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished!”
… Wasn’t the entire point of Christ dying that he released humanity from original sin and formed a new covenant with God, negating the old one so y’all wouldn’t be committing cardinal sin by worshiping him instead of Him?
Because I’m pretty sure that quote was about the nine lines at the beginning of that speech, not about how every part of Leviticus you people normally ignore is fully in effect. Especially given that fulfilling the covenant has been the presumed reason for Christ’s death and ascension unto heaven for thousands of years of doctrine.
Maybe I’m confused because I was raised Jewish, but I thought that was a big deal for you. With your blended fabrics and your tattoos and your bacon-wrapped lobster burgers with cheese.
Also, MALE homosexuality is the one that people argued was sinful. Ruth and Naomi were perfectly acceptable in the eyes of God back before Paul got involved.
:/
🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁
Becky, the correct response is “No, it’s not but it was his discison to be an asshole about it, pull a gun and get himself arrested, not mine, just like it’s yours to be one right now. I don’t control his life and I’m going to let him control mine, nor will I let you do the same. Good day!” and walk off to stunned silence
that kind of makes me wonder what’s going to happen with the macintyre house (i assume there is a house, anyway), depending on how long ross is in prison. can’t pay mortgage while you’re in jail, after all. does the state/bank automatically impound houses of prisoners if they’re going “away” for a while?
but anyway, for the weekend, presumably becky could crash at her old house if things get excessively awkward at casa brown, and at least she could grab some of her belongings before heading back up so she’d have more than literally the clothes on her back.
She could… but that will also leave her vulnerable to being kidnapped by her old Church and sent off to a reparative therapy camp.
And I basically consider it a given that that threat will come up again.
We already had that story.
It might not be Becky under threat. There’s also Joyce’s sister.
Seriously? It could easily be paid for; if not it could be rented out or someone else could get a job.
But she might not have ownership of it, so that might not be her choice to make. Does anyone happen to know what happens to the property of an incarcerated person? Does ownership naturally fall to closest relative or does ownership transfer to the state or is it just kept in the name of the incarcerated person so it theoretically could go back to them after incarceration?
Which if it’s the last one, I don’t think Toedad is in a mood to transfer ownership of the house to Becky. Maybe the Church and I’m sure the Church is circling to protect at least his valuables and keepsakes like old photo albums, while he endures the indignity of his “unjust” imprisonment.
I’d really hope it’s the last. I’m pretty sure a typical sentence doesn’t include “And confiscate all their property.” Or even pass to a relative. If you had a 6 month term or something, you shouldn’t lose everything you own over it.
In theory, it would be easy enough to arrange a property manager through the lawyer to rent it out, assuming he’s sentenced to a long enough term to make it worthwhile.
Nothing on that front’s likely to have happened yet though. It’s only been a couple of days. Becky likely has a key or knows where the spare is hidden, so it would be easy enough for her to go there.
i mean, even IF he’s put away for umptymillion years (unlikely), i’m pretty sure “next of kin” only applies if he’s actually dead, so it’s not like ownership of the house would automatically pass over to becky once he hits the big house–assuming he even goes to jail, and i wish i had enough faith in the justice system that that would be something i could count on as a thing that would happen.
anyway, becky does arguably have a home, for now, although as had been pointed out she can’t exactly trust the neighbors. so imo her best bet is to use the weekend to get a head start on packing up whatever belongings she wants to keep and add their transport/storage to the list of things she has to do to stabilize her situation. that being said, stuff is just stuff, so income and living situation are/should be at the top of her priorities. but maybe her birth certificate/social security card are somewhere in her childhood home, depending on ross’s filing habits.
Alternatively: Yes, I can be sure about myself as an adult, and yes, it was worth it to maneuver my dad safely into prison, where he’ll have years to think about how he strayed from the path of righteousness, instead of allowing him to escalate things further and die pointlessly in front of a SWAT team. If you’d been there, when someone was aiming a gun at your daughter, I hope you would have done the same.
Your NEVER getting that hug.
If you hug you will catch a case of the gays. It is a well known fact in many circles.
Plus gay people are turned on by all hugs from all same-sex people, even their friends’ age-inappropriate moms. It wouldn’t be right.
What the actual fuck? So he suddenly has no free will because his daughter happens to like girls?
Gawd’s in charge so, nope!
Duh, homo-sorcery mind control! Completely wipes out one’s free will with demonic satanic voodoo witch doctory.
Wow, so gay people are into witchcraft AND voodoo? Talk about multi-talented.
(I’m joking, of course. I feel I shouldn’t have to point it out, but I’ve seen people say terrible things in the comments both sarcastically and straight-faced, so sometimes I can’t tell the difference anymore. If you find this parenthetical insulting to your intelligence, then I am truly sorry.)
Honestly, that’s one thing I learned from the people I grew up with and my parents. In the eyes of bigots, queer people are frikkin’ badass!
Like, mind-controlling magic powers that can change orientations and gender identities, power to cause environmental disasters, able to shatter entire institutions and bring great nations to their knees. In the mind of bigots, we are Gods dancing among mere mortals…
Shame that in reality we’re just marginalized people trying to love and live in peace.
The X-men parallels just get deeper and deeper.
Teh Gay: My Gift, My Curse
I st ill love the idea that God /is/ sending lightning storms at gay people, because he’s been trying to provide His Chosen People with free energy.
What would really be awesome would be if it were the other way around. Secret unsuspected superpowers and no reason to be picked on because meh, sex weirdos. Sex is weird period, duh.
Toedad only turned violent because of an adverse reaction to Becky’s Gay Conversion Rays. Kind of a theological autoimmune response.
(Ask your minister if PrayGayAway(tm) is right for you.)
I read that as democratic instead of demonic. Which works too, actually
The thing about homo-sorcery is that it’s a heck of a lot stronger than any hetero-wizardry. Hell, if you ask some people, it even outmatches bi-spellcraft and pan-stidigitation.
Where does transomancy fit in?
We don’t talk about the forbidden texts. Those spells are too dark, too uncontrollable, too powerful. They must be hidden in the dungeon with the Aceonomicon
Though the bi-invisibility spell is pretty cool.
I’m just pleased that nobody has yet made the “Galstaff, Sorceror of Light” reference.
Carol’s projecting her own fears about Joyce (which are probably up to 11 what with the gun-waving) onto the standard target of the secular world. She’s clearly further down the rabbit hole than Hank, and that’s a pretty standard mentality for someone whose loyalty to a group is primarily the result of brainwashing (which is not unusual in monolithic Christian communities).
The alternative is to admit that she has no real ability to protect her daughter and that the faith offers no actual safe haven from the world’s dangers (and in this case can actually come from within the community).
None of that makes her not a shitty person, but it’s at least understandable why she’s being a shitty person. And kind of sad, since there’s… not really a lot of ways to fix what’s wrong with her.
Well… at least she’s not tryin to beat around the bush… kinda wish she’d avoid the bush entirely.
No no no, we want her headed towards the bush, maybe she’ll learn something new about herself!
On her own time, maybe. Not when it has the chance of hurting Becky and Joyce.
Well, at least it is out of the way. Let’s hope for zero meltdown, for Joyce’s sake.
Meltdown in 3…2…
Maybe not the best comic to ask this on, but I’m actually here when everyone else is, and I have a question:
Other people mentioned a mobile site a week or so ago. I can’t find one. I just get the normal site when coming to dumbingofage.com, and Google didn’t mention anything.
Is it a Patreon only thing? Does it require an app? It would be so nice to have a webcomic that works well on mobile–none of my favorites seem to have one.
Only mobile app I know about that imcludes Dumbing of Age is Comic Chameleon.
Looks nice for viewing the comic, but does it have comments?
There’s a separate mobile site? I know how to read the hovertext on mobile, but I haven’t heard anything about a mobile version.
That she’s smiling while saying that is intensely creepy. She might as well turn her head all the way around to look at Becky without shifting her body.
More like grimacing.
It’s a rather common thing with a certain kind of bad parents. You insinuate/accuse someone of being an awful/useless person, but “politely;”then, when the child reacts with (understandable) anger, say something along the lines of, ” see, now you’re being disrespectful to your mother!” …I mean, that’s, uh, that’s what I’ve been told happens.
Yup. “How dare you be so disrespectful and rude?” and so on. So you just weather it all until you can’t and then it’s all “oh, if this was really bothering you, why didn’t you say anything, clearly you’re just trying to manipulate us”.
And inside, all you do is internalize everything until you genuinely do believe that everything’s your fault and you deserve it for being born the way you are…
N-not like I can speak from personal experience on that one or nothing. Heh heh.
A related concept is “You will keep your voice down, the neighbors will hear you!” Regardless of the fact you’ve had to raise your voice because they’re shouting over everything you say.
… I think we need a support group.
Ooh, that’s a fun one too. Ditto for blaming you for “ruining a nice visit” even though they were the ones who picked the fight in the first place.
… what you talking about with support groups? Heh. I exited out of all of that with noooo new scars at all… mmhmm… (sweat drop).
It helps to know I’m not alone, but it is absolutely heartbreaking to see how common this is, amongst good people, no less. I’m so sorry, all.
If it helps, I’m not that good a person.
Compared to those people, you’re still a damn saint.
Becky’s not her daughter. She’s not being a bad parent, just a bad host and more generally kind of a bad person.
Ouch. I’m sorry you have experience with that kind of awful parent, too, but the way you’ve described it is bang on. Needle needle needle while implying terrible things, wait until you hit your breaking point, and then act the victim, making a big show of how terrible you are and what a saint they are.
Joyce’s mom wastes no time in being awful. That is some efficient awfulness implementation right there.
Well she actually waited until Joyce was out of the room, is Carol trying to needle Becky when no one else is around?
Good point. Carol knows from Joyce’s phone message where she stands with Becky, so she probably didn’t want to berate Becky right when she and Joyce walked through the door.
That doesn’t, however, preclude Carol later suggesting to Joyce that she shouldn’t hang around with that “sinner” of a best friend anymore.
Yeah I wonder how much of a bigger bongo Carol is going to become
About this size?
Thats is quite a large bongo indeed
You’ve been saving that, haven’t you ?
Well played.
*slow, admiring clap*
Yeah, that will happen!
She’s basically a transformer!
That is EXACTLY what she’s doing.
That’s how that kind of emotional abuser works. Gets you alone, needles you when you’re alone acting the gracious saint while anyone else is around. They keep poking at your sore spots until you explode, and then they turn around and play the victim the moment everyone else gets in.
And it works. Because people don’t see them provoking you, they just see the explosion. And even if you know that’s what they’re trying to do, they are very good at provoking the kind of explosion they want, and very good at finding the sore points that will provoke an explosion even if you know it’s playing into their hands.
This is exactly what happens. It’s worse when it’s a family member because one is expected to suck it up and continue contact.
It’s that fundie gender roles thing we were talking about during the Gender Studies class strips. The woman is not allowed to directly enforce the rules because that would be defying gender roles. So everything needs to be super passive-aggressive and with a patina of “niceness” so that it’s just “keeping order in the house” rather than defying one’s proper owner.
Which is why I’m so intrigued by Hank. He’s way outside that playbook (letting his daughter call the shots?!), and here’s Carol still in full your-father-must-define-you-shame-on-you-for-stepping-outside-that mode.
She could have waited for dessert.
That would have been the English way of doing things. Get your prey comfortable and off-guard, then ‘boom’.
In no way has this ever happened to me.
Aaaaaaand there it is. Whomp whomp.
The shoe is dropped! I repeat, the shoe is dropped!
Yesss, far too much niceness as of late so its good to see the drama back (and don’t say you don’t like the drama)
But on a more serious note its strange, to me, to this happening as growing up my mom was basically awesome, like you’d imagine all moms would be and my dad was…less so
Carol, let’s have a rain check on this subject during your recently traumatized daughter’s visit.
Becky: Thanks Carol, but I’m going to have to decline your offer of condescending bullshit. ::pats Carol on head::
Yep. Totally worth it, bruh.
It’ll be great to see Hank defending Becky eventually. …On that note, it’s nice to, how do I put this…. It’s nice to see the dad being not useless AND the supportive one. Sure, he’s a fundie, which in this sort of thing is synonymous with ‘flawed’ but it’s made clear he has a good heart, good intentions, and is at least willing to keep what judgments he may have to himself for the sake of Becky and his daughter.
And the whole “pray to the lord for guidance” thing seems to have worked, so there’s that in his favor. In contrast, Joyce’s mother has had a weird undercurrent of offputting fundamentalism from the beginning. Not WBC-ish 24/7, god no, just a weird, casual, ingrained fundamentalism that makes her think that Toedad sending his daughter to what’s basically a torture camp is justified.
Welp, Joyce-mom is…more terrible than the dad. I mean, I shouldn’t be suprised, but after they both responded with equal levels of terribleness to Dorothy I was hopeful.
Actually, I think a lot of readers’ lack of trust of Carol as opposed to Hank stems from that incident. Hank was the one who eventually agreed to accept Dorothy’s place in Joyce’s life, but Carol didn’t seem too sure.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/takeafter/
Mine came from her phone call with Joyce
Ah, yes. That. That was a thing that sucked.
saaaaaaaaaaaaame.
Mine came also from phone call with Joyce. Because even as an atheist myself, I can forgive socially-engrained prejudice in a person (and hooooboy does the Fundie community ever have socially-engrained prejudice) if they at least try to polite in my presence. Because if I didn’t have that forgiveness, I’d have to be a fuckload harder on past-me, plus it’d be a lot harder for me to function in my region.
[casually anti-atheist things are said on the daily around here – I’ve heard it all. I’m going to hell, I am incapable of feeling wonder or awe, I have no light in my world, I am an amoral animal, there’s nothing stopping people like me from going on a massacre, Hitler was like me, atheism is why Russia became so totalitarian, atheism is why the Holocaust happened, could go on. Likewise with biphobia (apparently I, a person who goes clubbing approximately never, am only in it for attention from the straight dudebros at bars) and ableism – people like me should be institutionalized, are incapable of empathy or emotion, are tsunamis, have black mirrors instead of eyes, don’t have souls, are animals, etc. Thick skin as survival mechanism, go. Trans folk and non-white folk living in white-dominant regions also know what I’m talking about here – gotta know when to pick your battles for your own sake more than anything else].
So when Carol did at least attempt polite when it became evident Hank wasn’t going to insist on dragging Joyce off after she rebelled, given what most fundies are taught to think of atheists, I was cautiously optimistic.
Then the phone call happened.
That one was a tough one for me because it threw me right back to being 8 and getting re-victimized by asshole parents who are fucking determined to reframe everything that happens to their kids as being all about them. Cuz that’s what Carol did. Toedad going around with a gun isn’t about how Joyce and Becky were traumatized at that point in the conversation, it’s all about Carol and what a loving devoted martyr she is.
And I am entirely too familiar with that response to a disclosure of trauma. It sucks.
And IME, people who have that impulse to take your trauma and reframe it as being about how they would’ve been Big Damn Heroes or Devoted Martyrs or whatever are both nowhere near as brave/devoted as they talk themselves up to be and generally assholes. So the moment Carol did that I was like, “…awfuck. She’s one of those.“
Yes, all of this!
And especially the part where the parent figures expects you to either praise them for their martyrdom or apologize for your role “thrusting this upon them” instead of actually getting some emotional support for awful things happening to you. Throw in a fair amount of “actually, that’s totally your fault for being X”s and you just start to bottle up every awful thing and assume you deserve it and are just inherently toxic to be around.
Yeah, this. Or “Have you tried [suggestion that basically amounts to not being you]?”
Like, “Well, I know the other kids make fun of you, but if you’d try to fit in a bit more, they’d probably like you!” or, “You should try to act a bit more like the other kids. People are a bit nervous of people who seem a bit too different and that’s why they’re making fun of you.” or, “We need to get you into speech therapy so kids will quit making fun of your stutter!” (erm, not saying speech therapy is a bad thing, but rather that focus of speech therapy should be “giving Kid tools for making effective communication happen” not “make kid able to emulate normal sufficiently to pass”) or whatever.
Or, worse, when they express it as concern. “I know you like weather, sweetie, but science camp isn’t really something girls go to very often. I’m just worried you’ll get made fun of, that’s all. Why don’t we send you to bible camp with your sister instead?”
Which is still basically “don’t be you because you is wrong” only dressed up prettier.
Oh yes, all of this!
I went through so many variations of that shit. So many “X awful thing wouldn’t happen if you were more ‘careful’ and weren’t trying to shove it in everyone’s faces”.
Oh hell yes. The amount of times I got told that I wouldn’t get bullied if I only TRIED to fit in, or that it was my own fault because I DIDN’T try, was… Well, about the same amount of times my parents knew something happened or was happening.
Just fuck that noise.
Hu, yeah, Hitler was an atheist!
The person claiming Vorsehung (destiny) made him what he is is our role-model for atheism!
Let’s ask Deutsche Christen about it!
Right, I forgot that he was a bit more open-minded there.
Hank’s more three-dimensional than Carol so far, and I’m definitely looking forward to seeing her thinking fleshed out. I mean, she’s nasty, but it’ll be interesting to see why she’s nasty.
Eh, with a fundie upbringing, it isn’t really that complicated. Being a devout Christian means you are so much better than everyone else. As a woman, being passive aggressive is about the only control you have over a situation. When you are strong-willed, as Carol apparently is, being forced into being submissive can be very frustrating, and that negativity expresses itself externally. But since she sees herself as submitting, she can tell herself she’s still better than all those horrible sinners.
Uuh, sorry to say, but “fleshed out”?
She is one of the very realistic characters in this comic and i immediately see the similarities to real persons.
Mary is the one who i want to have more backstory of, because at the moment i don’t grok her.
But Carol? All too real-life!
Heh. “Hail Satan”. Heh. Are we sure Deborah’s never met Mike?
The Joyce-mom of the species is more deadly than the male~ o/`
Holy victim blaming, batman! Guess it’s not just dads who are awful in this comic anymore huh
It’s not like she was the first:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/tag/naomi/
Linda Walkerton isn’t doing too well on the “How to be a decent mom” test. The awful moms are just overshadowed by the worst two dads. (Blaine and Ross of course)
When you put it that way I guess we might not be seeing a villainous mom
unless Mary somehow becomes a teen mother.What? We’ve already seen mothers act as antagonists. You already linked to examples.
I guess I’m just holding Naomi, Carol and Linda to a higher standard with the use of the word “villainous” since they cause problems for a few select individuals in their lives whereas Mary targets anyone that offends her sensibilities (and goes out of her way to do so).
At least that’s what I thought I was doing several hours ago.
targets anyone that offends her sensibilities
I think that you are missing someone, but haven’t find out where the ruth of that omission is.
We can only hope her “women are weak” religious views means she won’t try to use force or something awful.
If the moms start attacking people too we’re really in trouble.
Happy gun funtimes for everybody!
EVERYBODY
try to use force
Use the force, Joyce!
Well, one of them had to be the first to say something shitty.
And it begins.
Welcome to the longest weekend. Becky’s about to regret that offer to come support… sadly.
Welp, she sure didn’t disappoint now did she?
How in Hell can someone be that totally insensitive? Like maybe a, “how are you Becky, did your father hurt you when he gunnapped you? Where are you living? How are you eating?
Oh, never mind, it’s Carol Brown.
Even more fucked up because the incident in question is also one in which her father pointed a gun at Joyce, Carol’s daughter. So the incident isn’t just making it all about how Becky’s sinning ways ruined everything, but also actively dismissing or worse blaming Becky for the pain and misery thrust upon her own daughter as well.
Which hasn’t already been running through Becky’s head anyway. Not in an “I am evil” way, but in her plan to escape from Toedad and then go hide and not come back because she’d put her friends in danger.
Ah, there’s that there shoe. I was looking for that.
I knew it was coming because I heard Flight of the Valkyries blasting out of its speakers.
Wow Becky, way to escalate the situation.
Was she even THINKING about the consequences of her actions when he calmly walked up to her best friends mom and SMILED? What did she expect! It’s entirely her fault that Mrs Brown reacted that way.
I tried to be sympathetic to her character, but she OBVIOUSLY just has NO impulse control.
Jeez, way to take your best friend with you on your Nuke Them From Orbit tour, Becky.
Are you being serious right now? First of all, I’m pretty sure Mrs. Brown can’t even see what expression is on Becky’s face. Second of all, no, it’s really not at all her fault that Mrs. Brown reacted this way. Mrs. Brown is completely wrong. Homophobia notwithstanding, it’s not Becky’s fault that her dad is in jail, it’s HIS fault for pulling a gun on her and abducting her.
er, I think tangled_y is joking, Carriethedragon. There were a lot of comments like this about Becky in previous comics, so this is definitely a parody of those. “calmly” and “SMILED” being the most obvious indicators of why this is most probably a joke/satire.
Yeah, I see it now.
You have sleuthed out my cunning plan!
Yes, I was totally doing that. A few phrases I actually quoted verbatim from the comments about Becky making a joke at Joyce’s dad. (The horror!)
It was very well played and an excellent bit of satire of that sort of victim-blaming that tends to happen when Becky is victimized or in threat of being victimized in some way.
😀
Pssst, it’s sarcasm.
I thought on the internet we’re supposed to use a different font for
sarcasm.Then again, that takes some of the fun out of sarcasm.No, no, to indicate sarcasm online we’re supposed to use English, the official language of the Internet.
I tend to drop punctuation when being sarcastic. Or finish off the comment with:
/s
…to make it extra clear.
<sarcasm>
The HTML standard has reserved a tag for very much this!
</sarcasm>
It allows to style your sarcasm with CSS!
I’m assuming that that’s biting sarcasm. Think before you smile, blaming her for other people’s actions and the choice of capitalized words seem to indicate humor… but some other people I’m talking with seemed to read it as serious.
I think it says a lot about some of the inane comments that pop up here, that my joke reaction was so easily mistaken for one them!
It’s Poe’s Law at work!
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law
I may or may not have applauded when I saw this comment. A+
hahaha jeez yeah at first I got mad then I was like “genius”.
😀
It’s impossible for Becky to keep a low profile, which naturally makes her a sitting duck target.
Not saying Mrs. Brown wasn’t being a jerk. Just that Becky shouldn’t be too surprised. Good thing she doesn’t get rattled or angry easily.
Go for the yay
Nicely played! Now to hope that we don’t see a comment saying the same sort of things but in earnest.
They’ll be all “What you said, but without the sarcasm.”
There probably IS someone intentionally escalating things, though.
Not Becky, Hank. He knew damned well when he invited her to stay the weekend exactly what his wife’s reaction was going to be, and he’s intentionally picking a fight. Hell, it’s probably a fight that’s been going on for a while and he’s trying to outnumber her so he can ‘win’.
Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, some fights need to be fought. Maybe a bit of a dick move to drag Becky into a spousal argument that probably links to something much deeper in the relationship, though.
Becky invited herself, he agreed after a bit of hesitation. And mentioned calling ahead to ‘warn’ his wife. Presumably to keep things as smooth as possible or even tell her directly to ‘be nice’, not to escalate. Picking a fight seems a bit of a stretch, but for a man who’s been doing some extra soul-searching and growth lately, perhaps he is hoping for the same opportunities for Carol through this experience.
The correct answer is yes. Yes, you bongo.
well that was fast…
I dig the smile in the last panel.
So, let’s review.
Kidnapping your own daughter at gunpoint and threatening to kill her and her friends? Well, you gotta do what you gotta do.
Existing while gay? BURN IN HELL, WITCH.
Gotta love dem priorities.
Even supposing Becky were to respond “Golly gee, you’re right. I think I’m straight” I fail to see how that would get her dad out of prison.
Not like we get to take this to court like “Okay, yes he did abduct somebody at gunpoint, but it was all just a big misunderstanding”
Well, then clearly the evil secular Anti-Christ goons would let him go, recognizing that his holy purity is too strong for them and has saved their advance scout from her unholy corruption to test the faith of his home community. Duh.
Wow, Joyce’s Mom is a not-so-nice person when it comes to having empathy towards people who are not like her.
I have trouble understanding anyone who would take Ross’s side.
I can understand why people would take Ross’s side. It’s a “higher calling” to “preserve right thinking.” You know, a lot of bullshit, but seductive for people afraid of change or looking for someone to blame for their problems.
I’m not sure I would call it taking Ross’s side. It’s not that she approves of what Ross did, especially to her own daughter.
It’s that she blames the “godless heathen” for his wrong actions. It’s a defense mechanism against the idea that the “good Christian man” could be a psychopathic asshole.
You’re forgetting the part where she told Joyce that Ross’ heart was in the right place.
No, I’m not. I didn’t interpret her phone call that way. I interpreted it as “I understand why he did what he did,” not “I condone what he did.”
But if she keeps this shit up, maybe I’ll find out I was wrong.
It’s… So basically in that culture, being gay is a deadly sin, but not just that, a sign of downright demon possession that corrupts all it touches. In Carol’s twisted worldview, Becky is not a poor homeless gay girl looking for the love and support of all the family-like pieces she’s got left, she’s a demon wearing the skin of her child’s friend, who has destroyed one family and is now corrupting another from the inside.
This demon is leading her daughter to disrespect her over the phone and use vile unChristian language and have unChristian views about what is right. And now it seems that she may have also begun corrupting her husband as well. The same “tragedy” that befell Toedad is potentially about to befall her family as well if she cannot guard its moral clarity.
And so she asks this demon, how it can be so sure of this diseased “lifestyle choice” and appeals to the remaining drop of humanity in it and the Becky mask it wears whether it thinks that choice is worth ruining one family* before it wreaks havoc on her own. In her view, she is hoping to at least stop its reign of terror there and leave her holy house in order so that when the rapture comes, she does not have to watch the people she loves suffer torments on Earth during the End of Days.
*In this worldview, Toedad did nothing wrong. Becky was sick and needed to be brought home and be made well and there’s no sin in being a bit overzealous about that. Poor man had already lost a wife after all and was not about to “lose” the last of his family.
And on top of that, the secular authorities are known to be brutally unfair to Christians, especially those Christians who try and stand up for “traditional marriage” and what is “morally right”. So their judgment of who deserves to be in jail is clearly skewed.
BUt she’s wrong about everything. Becky is not a demon. She’s a young woman who likes touching giblets and has a wonderful Dinogal who she loves deeply. And Toedad had a choice and chose this sick twisted worldview over ever seeing his daughter like a person.
It’s the poison and rot of that culture. And for those who are queer inside it or near it, it burns like acid upon the skin.
I dig your comment, Cerberus. You always provide such great analysis and context. I do, however, think it is a little early to be saying Becky and Dina are deeply in love… I mean perhaps they are heavily infatuated, gleefully involved, sweetly entangled. It just seems a little too early to call it deep love. Besides, a person doesn’t have to be deeply in love with both a man and a woman to be bisexual. Becky’s feelings for Dina don’t need to be exaggerated to defend her orientation.
I think they romantically strongly care for each other and both of them would categorize it as love. I dunno, I tend to still call NRE puppy love, love, though so your mileage may vary.
Yes, homosexuality is thought of demonic in some parts, but that’s different from calling Becky herself a demon. If she’s really thinking she’s demonically possessed, her reaction would be to call in a preacher and/or try to cast Satan out of her. I’ve seen it happen–heck, I remember being put in the nursery as a kid so I wouldn’t accidentally catch the demon as he came out.
Becky isn’t a demon or demon possessed. She’s a follower of the world, and therefore a follower of Satan. Satan is also attacking Joyce and Hank, not Becky. That’s why she is, in her twisted way, trying to reason with Becky. She wouldn’t be reasoning with a demon.
And I’m still not convinced she sees nothing wrong with what Ross(?) did. I think she thinks the same way he does, but I don’t think she’d cross the line into grabbing a gun. She’s more insidious than that–the type that on the outside seems all prim and proper.
She doesn’t think what he did was right. She just blamed Becky for it. Not as a demon, but worse–someone willingly following Satan, whose only goal is to kill and destroy.
Forgot to mention: looking proper doesn’t exclude these attacks on Becky. Notice she waited until Joyce was setting the table to say anything? She’s hiding how nasty she’s being, while convincing herself that her nastiness is only saying what Becky needs to hear to save her.
And sorry if my post seems pedantic. I just think it’s important not to overstate these beliefs. They’re bad enough as is, and we need to understand who they can actually seem reasonable to these people.
Then again, I’m a former fundie who never met anyone like this. Both of my parents are mostly like Hank (minus the willingness to curse). I’ve even mostly got them convinced with the same argument Joyce made about homosexuality. (Heck, I have two gay uncles, and my parents are the ones on the best terms with them. We go out of our way to make my “uncle-in-law” feel like a part of the family.)
That might be true and that’s probably the separation between Carol and Toedad. Toedad believed a demon was fully inhabiting his daughter to strike at him personally and hurt him personally, so he needed to harden his heart and “do what was right” to exorcise this demon.
But you might be right that Carol views Becky more as a Satanist. Fully human, but choosing a vile and evil worldview and therefore dangerous, deceitful, and toxic and a direct threat to her family, but still a human being she can reason with and convince to see the error of her ways. Someone who can be potentially “saved”.
And that also defines the line. Of course you’d take a gun and shoot a demon, but a misguided human? Even when evil, that person is still a person. But damn if you’re going to be nice to that villain at the dinner table like nothing is wrong.
Heeeere we go.
She’s not even a single strip in and we’re already doing this.
*Megalovania plays*
Someone is going to have a bad time.
*You feel your sins crawling on your back.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who had that spring to mind…!
Oh, look.
Here comes the train wreck.
Well, that was triggering.
Yeah, Willis is way too good at eerily accurate recreations of absolutely awful behaviors that ring way too close to actual real life awful stuff.
This is good because it means those moments actually do justice to those experiences, but it also means that they hit like a champion boxer when they come.
Yeahthis.
Not my story to tell so I won’t talk about it in detail but the reaction to some people in my past who reported a Trusted Community Authority Figure to the cops for sexual abuse was pretty much exactly the same. “So, is it worth him being in prison and destroying his family? I hope you’re pleased with yourself.”
Thankfully I never got that particular reaction. Mainly because when I was dealing with that sort of stuff I was too young to file a police report on my own and my folks were big on the “you just need to set firm enough boundaries” type of victim blaming.
Yes, because THAT’S why Becky’s dad is in prison. I’m sure it had nothing to do with the fact that he committed assault, kidnapping, and attempted murder.
I had no hope for anything better from her, and yet I’m STILL disappointed.
So, pretty much Dewey?
It may not have been worth it to Becky, but it was clearly worth it to her father.
Now, to Becky, it might be more of a question of how much having her father in jail is worth. Although that should be true of Carol, too, what with him nearly murdering her daughter and all.
Serious comment time. We all knew at least three(?) months back that Joyce’s mom was going to be the one causing problems. That whole phone call with her just screamed it at our faces.
But hey, we might get to watch an actual divorce happen, so there’s always that.
But, she totally waited for Becky to be alone to drop the bomb on her. And do you really think Becky’s gonna tell anyone what Carol just said? Maybe she’ll drop some hints, but I’d be very surprised by full spontaneous disclosure (and very happy). And I very highly doubt that anyone around her at the moment is sensitive enough to squeeze it out of her.
Shit I didn’t even realize that. She totally did wait till she was alone with Becky.
The scoundrel.
Yeah, Carol is slick with her awful. Makes sure Joyce who is known to support her is out of sight and distracted with a task before dropping her little hate bomb.
that’s…
you are right, she didn’t even let her have Joyce for support when she..
she…
FUDGE YOU CAROL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A quick google say it takes at least 60 days for a divorce to be final in Indiana, so in external time that would be at least 10 years out. Same problem as with Becky registering for classes at IU.
No, but a big fight and a separation is possible more quickly.
Hank moves out, moves closer to University and offers Becky a place to stay. Everything ends happy!
I’d say him threatening your only daughter’s life and 10 others with a gun is worth him being prising but either way YOUR MISSING THE POINT!
“My father’s not in prison because I’m a lesbian. My father’s in prison because he’s a maniac who discharged a gun at a university and kidnapped me in broad daylight. Just imagine if they went around arresting people for being , rather than arresting trigger-happy kidnapping maniacs. There aren’t enough prisons in the world. And again, if every lesbian’s also did the gun-psycho-kidnapping thing, there wouldn’t be enough prisons in the world.”
…. is the rational response that no one in this comic will utter ever.
*for being fathers of lesbians
Yeah, I was not expecting it this much this quickly. I was expecting just coldness for a while.
I also thought her callback with Joyce meant she might not go down this particular line of thinking. It actually surprised me a bit.
Have you tried having a triangle smile Carol? Might look a bit less disturbing than whatever that rictus is? (Or you could try not opening up with whatever victim blaming bullshit you opened up with. Maybe a sincere greeting? I’m That would work too)
Mrs. Brown’s “Can you really be sure…?” condescending nonsense…
Even if Becky _wasn’t_ sure… Becky believing herself to be a lesbian isn’t what landed her father in prison. What landed her father in prison is brandishing and threatening people with a firearm around a college campus, kidnapping, and driving recklessly is what landed him in prison.
Like, even going the “unaccepting parent” route, there were a lot of responses ToeDad could have had to the situation that would not have involved prison time. He chose his actions, not Becky.
Gotta love these exaggerated stereotypes.
Except that Joyce is partially autobiographical, and Willis has stated in the past that some of Mrs. Brown’s lines (“I would die for you!”) are just what his mother would say.
They’re not exaggerated, sadly.
You’re new here, aren’t you?
Ah, gotta love that exaggerated naivety.
That’s what you were going for right? I mean it’s still not funny anyway.
It’s kinda hard to call Carol an exaggerated stereotype when there are actual, real-life people who are, if anything, worse, and are not at all ashamed of sharing their views. If you met Bryan Fischer or a member of the WBC, would you scold them for being “stereotypical?”
Hold on a second…
rips off mask
Aha! I knew it was you Ash Ketchum! Thought I forgot all about that obscure episode where you had to settle issues between a Electabuzz and a Scyther huh!?
Where are Anne Chovy and Caesar Salad?
I feel as though we’ve somehow missed the point of what the original comment was going for.
Aw well fuck that guy.
Exaggerated? Are you telling me my brain has fabricated memories of my past and no one ever actually told me things like that repeatedly about multiple subjects who should’ve been my own private business? Because, I mean that would totes be exaggerated.
I wish it was. I really do wish that this was awful ugly unfair and 100% inaccurate to real life occurrence. I wish this poisoned culture was a quaint unChristian fiction with no basis in reality. I wish that most queer individuals couldn’t point to that moment in their life where someone else called their loves, their attractions, their gender identities a phase or delusion that they could shake out of if they really tried. Where we haven’t been through decades of elected officials who genuinely believe that being queer is a choice and a deliberate choice intended for nothing other than hurting “real Christians” and their morality. Where these sorts of attitudes weren’t responsible for how long it took before same-gender couples could marry, or how many states you can be legally fired or denied accommodation for being queer (including the one in the comic), where there wasn’t fights over whether or not trans people are allowed to use bathrooms or gay people are allowed to adopt kids.
I wish none of that is true and this was just the ramblings of some Christian-hating a-hole.
But it’s not. This sort of thing is the thing a lot of people have experience with and I guarantee a fair amount of folk on this board have heard very close to this verbatim from their parents or family members.
And it stings. Bob, does it sting.
Not in the least. I know other people have said, this? But not in the least.
I used to monitor fundamentalist radio. It was brutal, and this is on the light side of things. Everything Cerberus is saying, everything being said in this strip, it’s all things they say.
I used to listen to Beverly LaHaye on Concerned Women for America’s radio show – before it went web-only – lecture on the necessity of making your queer children homeless. Of kicking them out of the house, of working to prevent friends, family – anyone – from helping them. Of the vital and critical need to drive them to utter destitution – until they would “repent” of their “sin.”
I would listen to her console and support women who called in, having done exactly this to their children.
I would see those children show up on the streets in the U. District and Capital Hill in Seattle. So very many of them.
They still do.
Ever been handed a pamphlet calling for your own execution? I have. Ever had your friends fan out to find you as quickly as possible because cell phones weren’t common yet and one of this crowd was coming from out of state to kill you for things you said on the net? I have. (His friends grabbed him before he got to his own state’s border, and talked him down.)
Do not think – and most of all, do not tell me – this is “exaggerated” or a “stereotype.” It’s all real. What you’re seeing in the comic? This is the soft edge.
Damn. That was amazing. I salute you.
And yeah, there are too damn many queer kids scrambling on the streets turning to whatever they need to to survive. It’s heartbreaking.
This is a soap opera, man, and there are only like 8 panels in even the densest strips within which to develop characters for the audience.
Of COURSE the characters have to be presented in a somewhat more direct, exaggerated way, and written as somewhat simplified/cartooned versions of actual people, preferably hammed up to be a bit larger than life. That’s just basic conservation of detail at play. If a bigoted character spent ten or twelve scenes talking about the weather and such before saying something that hinted at bigotry like a real person, that would be an enormous waste of the reader’s time.
Ha ha ha ha ha! You say exaggerated stereotypes, and I’m over here like, “Damn, only one horrible parent and even she’s more low-key about it than my parents were…”
Coming from someone who was homeschooled in a fundamentalist cult and then spent a semester at Bob Jones University before my parents decided having a son was too much trouble and gave me the boot… NOTHING about Joyce’s parents thus far has been exaggerated. Indeed, they could be even worse.
And I also know at least one person who was abducted by his parents and stuffed in a gay re-education camp, so Ross wasn’t exaggerated either.
Some things in Dumbing of Age are exaggerated for story purposes. Christianity is not one of them.
Yeah, this.
Hell, hasn’t Willis said on his blog that for most of the Christianity bits he’s using direct quotes from his past and this is especially true of Carol who’s heavily based on his mom?
Joyce’s mom: great hero, or greatest hero?
Next time on comments I hope are sarcastic
No of course, she’s being like, laughable evil.
The only laughable thing is her home decorating.
drops mic
fucking destoyed
savage
Not even her funny apron is laughable. Not that I know what she won’t do. I just assume she won’t do that…
Which leads me to wonder if Carol is at all aware of the fact that Joyce was involved in all this: looking at the wrong end of the gun when Toedad dragged Becky away. And after, a wild motorcycle ride where she ended up punching Toedad a good one. I sorta always felt Joyce should have then been hugging Becky and telling her how sorry she was for the garbage her father did to her and that she was there for her…instead she let Becky comfort her.
Regardless of what a numbskull Carole is, I have to wonder if she will tell Joyce that she never would have had that trouble – if she just wasn’t friend with a gay who should by now be her ‘former’ best friend.
I find it highly possible.
I would say she did judging from Joyce’s conversation with her immediately after the incident where she defended the man who tried to kill her best friend and pointed a gun at her.
I’m wondering, too. Maybe “I’d have thought you would want him to go to prison for pointing a loaded gun at Joyce’s face?” might be a question to clear this up.
“Well sure, but he wouldn’t have had to do that if you weren’t rebelling against his authority and against God.”
Aaaaand there’s the fundie Christianity I know and loathe! Ah, smells like childhood.
Well, and you guys thought Becky lacked subtlety. Guess now we know where she gets it from.
whoop there it is
I think the first half of the question is legitimate.
Not really. Do you go around asking people if they are sure that they are het at their age?
I keep saying this, but if you think gay/bi is a choice, you were never really straight in the first place. I’l just leave it at that.
not necessarily. i knew a girl who had the choice mentality, convinced her to make out with a hot girl (by her admission) at a new years party, and then she realized that it wasn’t so much of a choice really. sometimes people just don’t think their preconceptions through.
I was just thinking this.
Most of the times its asked its passive aggressive condescendation though.
In any case the answer is yes. I’m not sure why it’s a question for someone at Becky’s age. I mean most straight people I know knew they were straight at a younger age. I knew I was gay before 18.
I don’t mean to imply that it’s weird or anything to not know everything about your sexuality at that age. I just wanted to say that people do know, and other people use the question in a passive aggressive condescending manner. Like saying it’s just a phase.
Yea no. It ain’t. It’s a lame question. Even if it did matter whether she was sure. Which it doesn’t. Not to carol.
Nope.
It’s not. But thanks for playing, we have some lovely consolation prizes.
Our second and third place contestants each receive a copy of the Go Fuck Yourself, You Homophobic Jackass home game! Complete with 150 question cards and real flashing lights, it’s guaranteed family fun for the whole fundie family.
And new, light-up wheel-heel walk-on-water Air Sketch! The shoes that give you meaning in life, by Sketchers.
Back to you, Kirk!
I think it most certainly is not because sexuality can change over a person’s lifetime, and if someone who previously only liked girls decides maybe they like boys too now, it didn’t make their previous identification any less true and valid. Thus the assertion that she’s not sure about her sexuality because she’s too young is utterly laughable, because that’s not a thing that’s even possible to be!
It’s possible for sexuality to change. It’s even possible, though unlikely, that Becky is actually bi, just slanted more towards women. All that’s actually sure is that Becky is attracted to women. (For the sake of argument, ignoring actual Word of God, which I believe says she is lesbian, since that wouldn’t be known to characters in-world.)
None of that matters, because nothing other than pretending to be straight and denying any attractions to women would have been sufficient to prevent the happyfun gun times.
So, you’re technically right, but it’s on a level that Carol isn’t talking about or even capable of considering.
Actually, Becky mentioned bisexuality in a conversation back during Walking with Dina. She was jazzed that it was a thing to like both, but added “I sure as hell don’t, but whatevs!”
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/04-walking-with-dina/item/
Oh, I was talking to the other commenter, not Carol. I think Becky’s 100% sure she’s a lesbian, but in the unlikely hypothetical situation that she did end up eventually into dudes again, it doesn’t mean she was wrong about her sexuality, it just means she changed.
So would you say that 18 is too young to know that you’re straight?
It’s really not. Because what the question is asking is “Can you really be sure you are attracted to women at your age?” That’s really what Carol is asking Becky. And that’s an absurd question.
Like, when I was 13 or so and started really crushing on boys, nobody ever asked me if I could really know that I was attracted to boys at that age, because that was the expected norm. But non-het folks get this _all the time_ (and basically at all ages, as far as I can tell).
Becky _clearly_ knows that she is attracted to women and has never felt an attraction to guys.
After reading through the responses, lemme try to clarify a couple things here.
I’m down with sexuality being ‘hard-wired’ into you; being gay is not something you “choose”. But considering that — at 18 years of age — it wasn’t too many years earlier that all boys hung with other boys and thought girls were “yucky” and the girls only hung with other girls and figured all boys had cooties or worse, how then in just a few short years does someone *know* that they are straight, or gay, or bi, or asexual, or anything else for that matter? Most people probably have more time in the front seat of a car before they declare a preference for Fords rather than Chevys than they do in bed with a sexual partner before they declare a preference for same sex as opposed to opposite sex. But if a 14-year-old male says that he is attracted to other males and claims that he is a female in a male’s body and everybody is expected to agree with him … well, that seems a little sketchy to me.
At least that’s the way it worked in my youth. Maybe I am an outlier and my personal experiences don’t fit the rest of the data, but for me that’s all I’ve got to go on.
Most people have a lot of experience being attracted to members of one sex before they actually spend any time in bed with a sexual partner. Most people never even have sex with someone of the gender they don’t prefer, however old they may be. How do they know?
That’s not how it works. That’s not ever been how it works. You don’t need to actually have sexual experience to know. You know what you’re attracted to. You know what turns you on. At least for a large majority of people.
Some might find themselves rarely physically attracted to anyone. Some might be in denial. Some might be bi, with a strong tilt in one direction and not realize they could be attracted the other way as well.
Notice something about that though. It’s quite possible to not realize you might be attracted to one gender under some circumstances. It’s much weirder to know you’re attracted to a gender and be wrong about it.
You might not know and you might be missing something, but what you know, you know.
For me, long before 18. Long before I actually wound up in bed with a girl. Long before 14, even.
I can’t speak directly to the “female in a male’s body”, but from everything I’ve heard, that’s often clear even earlier, since it doesn’t wait for puberty and sexual attraction to really start.
My issue with it, as I said, is that we do tend to know if we’re attracted to someone or not. I find it very strange to question that, but that _is_ what’s being questioned here.
So, to use your example (albeit skipping the transgender part of it because sexuality/sexual orientation and gender identity are separate things, and I don’t want to conflate them) why _wouldn’t_ you believe a 14-year-old male who says he’s attracted to other males? Who else could possibly know who he does or does not feel attracted to?
And while you question whether people can really know they’re straight at that age, too, _would_ you question a 14-year-old girl who expressed an attraction to boys?
Also, knowing one’s attractions doesn’t require having been in bed with them sexually. I knew long before I ever actually had sex that I was attracted to men. Likewise, I know I’ve never experienced a romantic or sexual attraction to another woman despite never having had sex with one. In fact, a key reason I’ve never had sex with another women is that I’ve never had the desire to do so.
When you ask someone “Can you really be sure… ?” about something like this, you are outright questioning whether they know their own experiences. It’s exactly as condescending and nonsensical as telling someone you feel happy and have them respond with “Are you sure what you’re feeling isn’t actually sadness?”
Is it impossible that Becky might someday discover she’s bi or pan? No. It’s not impossible (though it seems an unlikely direction for Willis to take the story), but she definitely knows she is attracted to women. And the distinction between whether Becky is lesbian, bi, pan, (or anything other than straight) is unlikely to matter in the context of what Carol is asking her.
I mean, why not agree with them? I mean people don’t tend to be mistaken on who they are attracted to. Sure it’s a possibility that later on in life Becky might discover that guys are sexually interesting too. ( I mean Danny came upon a similar discovery in the comic). But she seems to be pretty damn sure of her interest in girls, Joyce and Dina especially. (To use a personal example, shortly after puberty started I realized I liked guys in that way. It wasn’t until a little later I could probably say that I wasn’t interested in girls that way. But even if tomorrow I did wake up liking girls it wouldn’t make any past feelings about guys illegitimate. Especially since those feelings for guys would probably still be there)
I mean what’s the point of questioning someone’s identity other than to do what Carol is doing right now?
I can’t really say anything regarding gender identity, but I know other people here can, and even on this page they’ve talked about dealing with that bullshit question.
“But if a 14-year-old male says that he is attracted to other males and claims that he is a female in a male’s body and everybody is expected to agree with him … well, that seems a little sketchy to me.”
Yikes, Bicycle Bill.
First of all, trans kids don’t expect people to “agree with” them. They expect to be questioned, bullied, harassed, and assaulted. That’s what happens to trans women when they come out, after all.
Second of all, “agree with”? It’s not an opinion, it’s a kid’s identity. You don’t agree or disagree with someone’s identity, because to be very frank you don’t get a vote on it. I mean, to use a very innocuous example, if I tell you I’m a Phillies fan, do you try to argue with me about whether I really am or not? Or do you reserve your “agreement”/”disagreement” standard only for sexualities and genders?
I’m a cis woman. Do you form an opinion on that? Is that something you’d feel you were being unreasonably accepted to “agree” with?
What seriously weird phrasing. And you put it in both bold and italic, as if you thought people would… well… agree with it.
Seems kinda sketchy to me.
*expected, not accepted.
Well, I’ve been in love with your daughter for most of my life, so that’s pretty compelling evidence, and my dad managed to stay out of prison for all those years, so it’s probably not really a causal relationship there.
Would you rather he be in prison because she’s a lesbian or because he pointed a gun at your daughter? Like geez.
“Yes.”
“Good. I thought so too.”
That would be the only way that her question would be acceptable.
Nah, it’d still be pretty dickish to ask it in such a confrontational tone just to do a “gotcha.”
It’s probably the best way this conversation could go, but question is still waaaaay unacceptable.
I know Becky is sure she’s a lesbian, but imagine for a second if she wasn’t. If Becky wasn’t sure she was a lesbian, would she deserve to have Carol throw it in her face like this while tacitly blaming her for her father’s criminal actions?
(The answer is no.)
Forgot to mention – I also wouldn’t put it past Becky to have a small, traitorous, illogical part of her brain that’s telling her what happened with her father is her fault, and being who she is isn’t worth it. And Carol trying to feed that part of her brain, it’s just- I can’t.
Oh, I guarantee it, because having been through similar stuff, it’s almost impossible to not. Especially when her parents and now Carol are saying out loud that it’s all her fault.
And that’s backed up in the text. The moments where she’s broken down have mostly been about apologizing to Joyce for “breaking everything”. Like there was the moment at the diner where she told Joyce that Joyce should be angry at her for breaking everything:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/lob/
She’s most definitely internalizing everything and that’s got to be brutal as fuck for her.
^I LIKE THIS
can you REALLY know youre a heterosexual at 18 is the real question
That’s actually a much harder question. Thinking you’re heterosexual has all the cultural assumptions and force behind it. Thinking you’re gay is defying all of that, especially in a community like this one.
Huh. Carol’s atually being nicer than I expected.
I kind of love the Becky smiling awkwardly followed by Carol smiling awkwardly. She’s actually trying.
It’s just that she’s utterly terrible at it.
Your post completely fried my brain dawg.
I don’t think Carol is actually trying. She’s kinda blaming Becky for her dad being in jail. I’m at a loss as to how to interpret that as something other than victim blaming. That fake smile is making it worse really.
shes trying something. just not the right things.
She’s INCREDIBLY trying. She is maybe one of the most trying people in this whole comic. Only Mary is more trying than she is.
No, the worst part is that this probably is her trying and she probably expects credit for it. Like, I didn’t call you a sinner. I didn’t tell you to get out of my house. I am not hitting you or sprinkling you with holy water or staging an exorcism (yet). This is me being nice.
And so I ask you, demon, was your reign of terror worth it?
It’s 100% victim blaming, it’s 100% awful, but the worst part is I’m nearly positive that Carol thinks she’s legitimately playing this one kindly.
…I have just decided that the next time I start to feel unsure about my life choices, I will imagine Carol Brown snarling at me, “So, demon, was your reign of terror worth it?”
Because that’s a fucking metal question and the answer is yes, yes it very much was.
*throws up the horns*
Carla avatar makes this comment perfect. 😀
I can totally see Carla taking that question and running with it if she was there. She’s really fucking good at taking hateful bigots’ shit and throwing it back in their faces. So long as they don’t go for blindside suckerpunches, anyway… but I don’t think Carol would. Not because she doesn’t have a judgey side like Mary, but because Carol’s more passive-aggressive.
You got to have a reign of terror? That’s really lucky. The most I’ve managed is a light shower of trepidation.
And the only real tyranting you really did was throwing mimes into the scorpion pit, I’m sure.
I’m not sure if trying to be civil and failing makes her a better or worse person.
THERE it is!
Damn…. just…. damn.
while i have no clue if i knew my own sexuality back at her age because i didn’t care about it at all then *still super duper low on my priority list*
but being a lesbian isn’t why toe is in jail mrs joyce
I had just figured out my sexuality at that age. Gender took a few extra years.
i still havent figured out my sexuality, but at no point did i ever think i did. generally you know whether you’re sure or not.
Short answer: yes. Long answer: Dammit Carol your husband’s fine with it, your daughter almost got shot in the FACE because my dad’s an asshole, why don’t you go look in the mirror and see if you can spot exactly where things have gone wrong with your train of thought ma’am?
Every time she looks in a mirror it cracks.
“You’re goddamned right it is.”
-Carol Brown, next strip, maybe.
She’s not up there with Ross McIntyre and Blaine O’Malley, but she’s working on it. Definitely surpassed Ethan’s Mom and probably just edged out Walky and Sal’s Mom today.
Well she hasn’t told Joyce to fuck anyone yet, so yeah.
she has definitely not surpassed ethan’s mom
She’s siding with a kidnapper and would-be murderer against his victim, I think that’s worse than anything we’ve seen from Ethan’s mom.
“This is Carol.
Carol doesn’t hunt people with a gun.
Carol is a better parent than Ross.
Be smart, be nothing like Carol OR Ross.
Be a not-terrible person instead.”
Hot girl makeouts is always worth your dad in jail
“Dads are great and all, turns out I like boobies more.”
The only fault in that sentence is that Becky’s dad is not very great at all.
It was his choice to go a-huntin.
Different people mature and figure things out at different times. Most people I know didn’t start to REALLY question the big things in their life till 16, give or take a year.
If she was 14, I’d almost think that’s a fair question. Maybe she “knows”, chances are she’s still a teen who just thinks she’s sure about everything.
If she was 16, I’d say she probably knows, and even if she doesn’t it shouldn’t be an issue. If she doesn’t “know”, she’ll figure it out.
But she’s what, 18? 19? She’s reaching or is past the point where questions like that aren’t idle speculation anymore. And again, shouldn’t matter.
Because the biggest thing “Is it worth your father being in prison?” no, it’s not. Him pointing a gun at my your daughter’s face is worth him being in prison. He did more than that, but that’s enough 20x over already!
I just realized, she looks eerily like Linda Walkerton, but with more curve…
WHAT TIME-TANGLED GENETIC MAYHEM HAS BEEN WROUGHT?
There’s really only one thing that crosses my mind at the moment, and it sounds a lot like “dirty old hag”.
Thirty Cold Bags?
Yeah, thirty cold bags of icy christian spite dropped on hopeful Becky. *sigh*
“FASCIST!”
“Hag.”
That looks a lot like a quote, but I really can’t tell what’s the source. Care to enlighten me?
“He’s not in jail because I’m a lesbian. He’s in jail because he kidnapped me at gunpoint and threatened to kill my friends. And yes, I am a lesbian. If you don’t like that well, I don’t know where I’ll go, I don’t have money to go anywhere, but I won’t stay here. ”
You got to be blunt with these people.
her house’s nearby
her house with only her mom, and not her dad! hooray!
Her mom is dead.
considering her dads in jail he couldnt stop her from staying there but legally it is definitely not her house anymore
I’m not a lawyer, but I’d think that house is still her legal residence. Unless Toedad was able to file whatever legal papers are needed to throw her out while he is in jail. And even in that case she’d have the right to remove her possessions.
Actually, for example, I know for a fact that after my grandpa’s death I legally own a share of our apartment. I dunno how it usually works in America, but me thinks it’s not completely out of question that Becky might actually be a legal co-owner of the house.
Yeah that’s pretty much what I expected. Actually, it’s better.
“In order ‘yes’ and ‘he seemed to think so when he threatened a campus with a shotgun.’ And, to answer the question you didn’t ask, ‘no, you don’t get a say.'”
Today, in People Whose Necks I Would Snap Like a Fragile Twig if Not for the Fact they are Fictional and Also I Am Morally Opposed to Killing.
In a perfect world, the next comic would be Becky and Joyce back in Joyce’s dorm room, being like “Well, that didn’t work.” “Wanna watch a movie they didn’t let us see?”
And maybe add in a panel with Hank in the kitchen saying “Carol, you’re a horrible human being and I want a divorce.”
Tell that bible thumping, sanctimonious old bongo to fuck off, Becky! “My Dad’s a fucking kidnapper with a gun, Ms. Brown. He’s a nutty judgemental Christian like you are. I’m queer and I’m here, so live with it.”
“By the way, what’s for dinner?”
I mean, free meal.
Interesting that Mrs. Brown doesn’t cause trouble until Joyce leaves the room. I’m wondering if she’s wary of annoying Joyce now that Joyce has started fighting against her bigotry.
She should be.
Waiting with bated breath.
Yes and it was he put himself in jail. What’s for dinner?
“is it worth your father being in prison” The thing that’s worth him being in prison is the fact that he WENT AFTER HER WITH A GUN
Yes, and I guess that’s his call.
Yep, the mother is going to be horrible. *sigh*
Classic Willis one-two beatdown. “Here, have a couple panels of the sweetest dog ever. NOW HAVE THE MOM OF PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE DOOM.” Buckle up, friendos, for The Incredible Flaming Shitshow.
GUN AT CAMPUSES! KIDNAPPING! ASSAULT WITH DEADLY WEAPONS!
Did that go through?
GUN-POINTING AT FACE OF DAUGHTERS!!!!
“Yes… but homo!”
I am only saying.
HE BROKE LAW! HE GO TO JAIL! THIS GO THROUGH DUMB CLOSE BRAIN?!
…seriously, it’s like I hae to talk dumb to get through to some people, you know hat I mean @Bagge?
I believe the correct answer is “yes and absolutely.”
“I think the question you meant, Ms. Brown, is ‘was it worth it to Ross to go to jail over that?'”
That jail time might have been more about shooting a gun on a public college campus, but whatevs.
I was off about the Brownpocalypse by hours rather than minutes, darn. In my defense, I assumed Carol was in the car waiting for Joyce, not four hours away. Though if the countdown starts from when Becky and Joyce greet Carol, then my Brownpocalypse prediction was right! :p
And no, Carol, bad! The first part of your sentence is DEBATABLE at best (in the sense that you’re incredibly wrong, but I can see where the bad logic comes from) but there’s nothing backing the second one, not even from a Christian perspective or whatever.
Ross attacked Becky and her friends on his own free will. HE escalated the situation. HE broke the law, HE made the decision to do so. It’s all on him.
How he reacted is not Becky’s fault.
You might think Becky did something wrong by deciding (?) to become a lesbian (you’re wrong on that too, but that’s a separate argument) but Ross was the one who reacted to it the way he did. There were a million ways he could have reacted to his daughter’s coming out and he chose gun. Becky is not responsible for that.
Y’know, I like to believe the best in people. Call me an idealist or foolishly naive, but I’d like to think that people in general have it in them to be decent human beings, and that the vile sort of person that would go out of their way to hurt someone else, such as Mrs. Brown would be the sort of evil that could exist in stories. That surely people can’t be this bad in real life.
Then I remember that Joyce’s character is semi-autobiographical, and that her mother’s words have been taken from actual events, whether it be in personal conversation, by witness, or through hearsay.
I remember this, and it genuinely makes me want to puke. What hope does humanity have when it’s so busy tearing itself apart? While I didn’t need another reason for being an atheist, this sort of thing just reinforces it.
Because even if a kind and loving God existed, how can we be worthy of salvation when we have people who can do and say things like Ross and Mrs. Brown? When we’re capable of this kind of cruelty, maybe we don’t deserve grace.
…Sorry, I’m rambling. It’s late and I’m tired, which makes me prone to stream-of-consciousness existentialist blather like this.
I grew up surrounded by it… but their kids have abandoned that culture, because they knew people personally. They knew me and that affected their ability to see that evil “unknown” as the demon it was made out to be.
And I have seen no shortage of parents who echo this, but every year their number decreases, just a little. There’s still a lot of bad, but things are getting better thanks to the tireless work of activists. And that’s all we can really hope for.
I guess so. It’s not like I can say much, considering I grew up in a supportive family and I myself am male and straight, but…I guess what I’m trying to say is I wish things were different. Although it is good to hear that things are at least going in the right direction, even if it’s only in baby steps.
Stone by stone, we break down the harsh brick wall of bigotry, throwing our bloody bodies against it till the bricks loosen and chip. But piece by piece, still bringing it DOWN.
The ally in me is twitching because… I’ve seen enough of your bodies being bloodied.
Those should be our bodies.
That wall’s built on an assumption of our compliance, and where it’s still standing then that’s on us, dammit. Those of us being privileged by that shit should be doing our damn jobs and turning it to rubble.
*solemnly nods* The trouble for some – self included – is feeling like it’s wrong to burn the bridges with those friends and relatives who won’t budge on their bigotry. Whether that’s out of love, patience, and hope, or just Christian Values (TM), I’m never sure, but
When you became aware that these things actually happen in real life, and that people do actually suffer under this kind of abuse, it disgusted you.
THAT is the hope of humanity. The way you reacted to it, right there.
So thank you, Songbird.
Mind you, i’m no stranger to emotional abuse, myself. The ex of someone very important to me (a parent) was a homophobic, trans-hating, aggressively controlling, verbally abusive and physically intimidating asshole (I’m not gay or trans, but that didn’t stop him from being abusive to me or my mother. I just know he’s homo/transphobic because he would never shut up about it if a gay character happened to show up on TV). I think part of the reason it disgusts me is because on some level I know what it’s like and the fact that it happens to other people besides me, specifically BECAUSE they are different horrifies me.
I would never wish my past misfortunes one someone else, and yet I’m continually reminded that it happens every damn day.
But thank you for the kind words, all the same.
The thing is, what you say is still true. The vast majority of people are good. If they weren’t, society wouldn’t work. It depends on people being nice to each other for their own good.
Sure, society historically hits snags like this. But look at it this way: Willis is able to make a comic about this, and I’ve yet to see anyone disagree that Carol is a bad person and that what she’s doing is wrong.
While there are some stragglers, we as a society are have rejected this crap. Because people are generally ultimately good, and once they become aware of the problems, they find them disgusting.
It’s actually fundamentalism that teaches that people are generally horrible and only being a Christian gives them the slightest chance to be good.
just because you didn’t see comments about how carol is right doesn’t mean they weren’t in the queue
Joyce mo got da booty. Mike’d hit that for a quarter
I’m not saying it.
It’s a measure of how unpleasant the woman is, really. I mean, Mike would do YOUR mom for a nickel.
(Someone had to say it.)
If my mom eere chosen by Mike i’d be eternally honored and get that nickel bronzed and on a plaque
Panel 5 reactions:
1) Dear Bob in Himmel, Becky has the patience and grace of a bobdamned saint! Like, holy fuck, she just takes that lovely little emotional shiv right in here still fresh wounds from her last meeting with her dad and disarmingly takes it. No rising to the argument. No anger, just taking the shiv and tilting her head up so she doesn’t cry.
That takes bloody emotional fortitude and I doubt many could hold out so well in a similar situation.
2) Oi, she was so happy and hopeful in Panels 3 and 4. You can tell she let down her armor just a little and let herself hope that Joyce’s parents would welcome her and be her replacement family, who accept her. Maybe hesitatingly, but at least with respect for what she’s been through. And in response, bam, right in the spleen.
We know from the Toedad in the Hospital scene that Becky bottles all this up inside trying to let none of it show in front of anyone, so this has got to just be adding to her sense of pain and loss and I can so identify with that and that stupid hope that maybe this loved one won’t treat you like shit if you’re just disarming enough.
3) Oh, those words, those damned words. That construction of phase. That assumption that you’re too young to know until you’re so old that you must be lying, because a real X would have known when they were a child. That vile little victim-blaming nugget and that echoing of what her father said to her when he was lying on his hospital bed. What he said the very last time she saw him right after he had threatened the life of so many people to kidnap her to drag her off to torture.
And Carol is good at that, echoing the toxicity of Toedad, because they are one and the same by culture, Toedad’s just more upfront about it.
Willis is way too good at accurately capturing those moments and how they land like blows to the sides. Joyce may have expected a rough trip, but Becky is in for an even rougher one. And the worst part of it all is that she’s self-sacrificing and bottles everything until it rips her apart. She will bleed internally to play happy and support Joyce and won’t ever reach out for support or show how much this is hurting.
I really hope she borrows Joyce’s phone to call Dina, because with Dina she’s gotten the closest to revealing the pain of her recent experiences.
You’re deep in it if you think someone almost *murdering* your child is a reasonable response to their own child coming out.
This.
They were love bullets.
“You pierced my hearth with your love..no seriously, it hurts like hell!”
Friendliness pellets.
Ross would just kill the meat-sack hosting Joyce’s immortal form. It would suck for Carol, being stuck on Earth, but Joyce would be in Heaven. True fact, Catholics used to practice religiously-driven anorexia, based on a belief that withering away the temporal self made one’s spiritual self stronger (or, in blunter terms: starving increases the soul-to-flesh ratio, making you holier).
I know Joyce’s people are closer to “the Pope is the anti-Christ!” than Catholic.
Oh Joyce’s mom no. Are you trying to undo all the good feels Joyce’s dad left us with?
God please give me strenght so I could surive few next strips with Joyce’s mom.
and there is is, knew this was going too smoothly
Mrs Brown. Mr MacIntyre is in prison not because Becky is a lesbian but because he pulled a gun on her frickin FACE.
Not to mention the ‘masked vigilante’ on campus he pulled it on… WHILE DRIVING.
He also attacked Dina, so you know, that’s another count of assault.
Also he was driving so recklessly in general even without the gun bits he might as well have been drunk. He put not just Becky but many people in danger. (And Becky is bad enough. I mean she’s his DAUGHTER).
I mean even certain bigots can object to such tactics, I’m sure. I think. I hope.
Mr MacIntyre is in prison from no-ones fault but his own and possibly the culture he was raised in- the same one you were raised in. But I guess that kind of self reflection is too hard for you. On some level I can get it, what you have been raised to think is right and true is twisted and terrible and it can be hard to even think there is a problem with that because well… that’s just reality for you. But given the fact your husband is making the steps towards growing and being a better person really shows you still have no real excuse.
In fairness, pulling it on the masked vigilante was probably legal, as well as not being at all unreasonable.
Agreed 100% on the rest of it, though, kind of obviously Toedad’s own damned fault there. Even the ‘culture he was raised in’ doesn’t really champion aggravated kidnapping as a method of problem-solving, man. Even Republican Jesus only likes guns for actual self-defense.
No. Pretty much anything you do during felony kidnapping is neither legal not reasonable. You don’t get to call self-defense on someone trying to stop you in the commission of a felony.
Can she know she’s a lesbian? Of course.
Is it worth her father being in prison? Yes, being true to oneself is always worth it. Besides, his being in prison is his own damn fault.
That said, a reaction like this was… expected from Mama Brown. 🙁
I would argue that being true to yourself isn’t worth your family being in prison, if the cause and effect actually went in that direction it’d be reasonable to abstain.
The cause and effect DON’T go in that direction, though. Toedad is in trouble because he’s a violent idiot that actively drove his daughter away and then resorted to felony abduction to try to rectify his own guilt about it. He’s not in trouble BECAUSE she’s a lesbian, so it doesn’t matter whether it would be worth it or not, the question is just nonsense.
He… wasn’t feeling guilt about his daughter being driven off. He was feeling threatened, and disobeyed, and unjustly challenged, and angered that something that belonged to him and was owed to him had been taken away by teh evils in defiance of him. Note that the owned-by-Ross-McIntyre theme was more important than anything else.
The closest he even came to guilt was the bullshit in the car about Becky reclaiming her womanhood and him then having his daughter back, and then he realised he was being disobeyed again and he was right back to “I-will-defend” this and “duty” that and bam, it’s all Becky’s fault.
He’s a long way from understanding guilt.
Carol, he’s the one who started waving a gun around, uninvited. I’m guessing that he’s the one who decided that he wanted to go to prison, no matter what Becky did or didn’t want.
((Sigh)) I guess that sets the tone for the weekend. I just hope she can give it a rest at the meal table. Politics and dinner are a lousy combination!
Here’s hoping if Carol’s so adamantly fundamental, she’ll defer to her husband’s wishes and shut the fuck up.
That’s assuming that this is what her husband’s wishes are. I can absolutely see him being like ‘well I disagree with Carol but she has a right to an opinion and can’t you see she’s upset? She cares about you! Just don’t make a mess of this situation is all I’m asking for’.
It’s the nice ones whose betrayal can hurt the most.
Becky, I love you, but WHY would you want to spend time alone with the mother of your best friend who you probably KNOW is the kind of person to ask that question.
Seriously, go pet the dog or something.
If snoop turns out to be a homophobe, I’m quitting the internet forever.
Snoop: *bark bark* translates to “Are you sure you’re a lesbian? Maybe try dating a boy first. You might like it…..I’d die for you!”
Becky: “Dangit!”
Becky: “… Are you comin’ on to me?”
Snoop: *bark bark*
*Careless Whisper plays in the background*
Hank has been nothing but awesome to Becky for the past 4-or-so hours, and pretty much her whole life has been like family to her.
It seems pretty reasonable to hope for the same with Carol.
You make a good point.
Well, he deserved it.
On another less rage induced note what does the apron say: “I cook but I won’t [something]”
my guess is “clean”
“burn”
Wuuuuut
Ha ha! Casually reminding everyone who’s not you that your sky father will torture them forever in the most painful way possible. CLASSIC Joyce’s Mom.
Ahaahaha! Haha… Haaaa…. hoo.
I think I may hate this woman.
Ah, Fundie “humor”… it’s… great…
Reason
Crap. I read that, but I didn’t realize it was a Fundie thing until just now.
Joyce’s mom, you should know better…..if you make Joyce pick between yourself or Becky, she will NOT pick YOU.
“Yes and he’s in prison for pointing guns at people.”
“Bl-”
“Don’t go there, please.”
So the first thing she asks is not about the event where a gun was pointed at Becky and her daughter’s face, but if Becky’s sexuality is legitimate? Does she really put her own bigotry above human life?
I suppose right now Joyce’s mom is in a denial stage, and is trying to pin the blame on something more convenient. She needs to sort out her priorities.
I don’t agree, because that assumes her radically different belief system and her commitment to it would still generate a priority scale similar to ours. When she and Joyce spoke on the phone, her first words (to her daughter, higher priority than daughter’s best friend) were along the lines of “are you okay? I was so scared for you!” and immediately segued into “but poor man, you have to understand, he only thought he was doing his best. I would die for you, Joyce.” ie, “If your soul was imperiled, I don’t know what I would do, but there’s no end to the lengths I would take to save you. If I thought Satan had sunk his trident into your soul and you decided to be a lesbian, Joyce, I might do what Ross did.”
When she sees Becky, she doesn’t seem to see a traumatised young woman who’s been effectively orphaned, who’s grieving for her mom and the pain of rejection and life-threatening violence (the car chase is DEFINITELY this) from her father. She sees Becky, Joyce’s former childhood friend, who let the devil into her soul in one of the most perverse ways possible; her father, a profoundly devout Christian, feared for Becky’s life, seeing her blindly giving herself to the Deceiver, made a profound sacrifice out of love for Becky. Because Becky made her choices, being lulled by lust and avarice into giving away her true immortal self to Satan, she caused her dad’s reactions, and because Becky’s letting evil take root in herself, Carol need not consider her emotions as an equal human.
Man… I know all of these things already. But the way you’re describing it still makes it a punch in the gut, Stara.
(On a lighter note, I first wrote that last part as “a gut in the punch”. Which, in its own twisted way, would also have been an appropriate description.)
I think Carol is a bit unfair here. ToeDad was rather out of line with the whole gunpoint-kidnapping so opening with rejecting Becky in the closest thing she has to a home by the closest thing she has to a mother can be seen as a bit tactless.
Miss Manners would surely disapprove.
This thread killed me laughing XD
so no chance of her trying to storm the prison to get Thumbdad’s head when she learns he aimed a shotgun at her daughter trying to ‘save’ his family? maybe even the screaming of an obscenity or two? or is she just too far gone into her faith? (She Reminds me a LOT of one of my aunts actually. which is NOT a good thing)
faith and spirituality are fine, but does one REALLY have to become a mindless drone? or is it a natural insanity defense when the mind cannot reconcile the differences?
EXACTLY!!!!
We know from Hank that ToeDad has always been the charmer we have come to know and hate. Carol has known him for two decades. She knows exactly where he’s coming from, she has heard his hate-speeches, she has witnessed his violence and self-righteousness. And now she knows that he turned that towards her DAUGHTER. Towards both her daughters (if she had any decency that is how she should regard Becky).
ROSS POINTED A GUN AT HER CHILD. ROSS THOUGHT HE WAS ENTITLED TO POINT A GUN AT HER CHILD. Carol should gather a mob and demand ToeDad’s head on a pike. She should scream abuse at him on every internet and newspaper within reach. She should petition her pastor and friends to strike Ross name from the community and make sure to never welcome him or people like him again. She should collect money to give Becky a scholarship.
She should give Becky a hug and tell her that she is always welcome.
THAT IS THE LEAST SHE SHOULD DO, even if she refused to budge on the sexuality-thing, THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE PRIORITY WHEN A GUN WAS POINTED AT THE FACE OF HER CHILD!!!!!!!!
FUDGE YOU CAROL!!!!!!!!!
That’s what a good Christian would do.
That’s what a half-way decent human being would do.
Hank passed the test.
Carol fails.
All shall snub her and despair?
Sadly we know she already knows and we know she already knows because Joyce told her over the phone and emphasized that part:http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/honkin/
So that’s what makes this all worse. She knows Toedad pointed a gun at her daughter. That he threatened to kill what she thinks is her only daughter in order to kidnap a person who was practically a daughter to her and one of her daughter’s closest friends. And that this is something her daughter was so upset about she actually yelled at her parents about it, which is super serious and big and definitely the topic of discussion of some family meetings this week.
And yet… she’s not doing any of the things Bagge said. Hell, she’s not even able to get a hate-on going for him because she sympathizes with what “he was trying to do”*. And instead she focuses on the “real” tragedy. A “good man” is in jail because his ungrateful and Satanic daughter chose to be all lesbiafied.
And it’s really disgusting.
*Which also makes me wonder based on Hank’s earlier comments if there weren’t a number of instances in the past of Hank going “Lord help me, I want to punch that man, Carol” and Carol talking him down talking about how “Godly” a man Toedad was and how his “heart is in the right place” so ignore his too bigoted even for a bigoted PMD Rapturist Church views.
doesn’t smiling stiffly like that give you facial cramps?
Jeez, I wish I had a lesbian daughter. Then, if I felt like doing any crazy criminal s#!t, I could get away with it scot-free by saying, “The power of my daughter’s girl-boners MADE me do it.”
You get an internet
Was she having an affair with Toedad or something?
Because I grew up around a lot of terrible fundies, and even by that standard blaming a parent’s violent abuse on the kid wouldn’t have been considered remotely acceptable by anyone but the actual abuser and potentially the victim.
Actually the fact that fundie communities tend to be fairly intolerant of trying to pass the buck for your own sins may be their only redeeming quality, now that I’m pondering it. If you engage in violent behavior, it’s a demonstration that you’re not in a state of grace, and there’s no one to blame but yourself.
An upside of sola scriptura and Calvinism, who knew?
“Was she having an affair with Toedad or something?”
I’ve got to say that I’m wondering that. If Hank is more easy-going and compassionate, it’s quite possible that Ross was closer to Carol’s definition of a ‘proper Christian father’ and she may have been attracted to him. Maybe she wanted to ‘comfort’ him after his wife died and maybe she let him ‘comfort’ her when her frustration with Hank’s attitude got too much.
It would be a profound irony if “Mrs Self-Righteous” was, in fact, an adulteress. Did Ross do things for her that Hank wouldn’t? Things she thought she deserved but couldn’t get elsewhere?
The ship must flow…
‘It would be a profound irony if “Mrs Self-Righteous” was, in fact, an adulteress.’ That phrase is making me snigger a little because that’s kinda Mary’s storyline in Roomies!
/Kind of serious discussion/
Honestly I’m not a fan of the ‘christian hypocrite’ trope. I mean it happens irl sometimes sure, but it’s kind of overused and well… toxic ideas or beliefs are toxic regardless if the person dedicates and keeps to them 100%. Failing to upkeep to other certain ‘standards’ in fiction can sometimes kind of distract from it honestly, so I’m not a fan of it as a narrative device (it kind of almost implies that their ideas would be fine if they had actually kept to all the ‘rules’? If that makes sense?) I didn’t like it when when Mary did it in the other universe for instance (was self righteous /and/ a hypocrite both). I prefer her as just this terrible self righteous person with toxic ideas in this universe and that’s it rather than adding her in as some girl who sleeps around despite it being against her religious beliefs.
Mary and Carol have garbage beliefs, even if they are ‘squeaky clean’ in terms of sexual conduct in relation to their beliefs. Even if there’s no ‘dirt’ below the surface to dig for, they are plenty toxic and unlikeable as they are.
Well you are pretty lucky then! Either that or just never got to face how that community REALLY feels about it when confronted with a real question.
Victim blaming is alive and well, and alas, Christians are no more exempt from it by virtue of their faith than from vicious hatred, materialism and selfishness.
* when confronted with a real situation, I meant to say. Whoops.
Could be worse, Carol.
Joyce could have said yes.
This.
godamnit Carol. Don’t be an idiot. don’t be.. a toedad!
She is no toedad. She’s a chinmom.
I never had commented before but today i just had to. This nailed it gor me.
That’s the almost exactly (gay not lesbian) what my mom told me when i came out to her. Mime also added the classic “how can be sure if virgin and never slept with girls” in the mix. Worst X-mas.
Oh. And without the “dad in prison” part too.
On a lighter note (to help you feel better), how do you have two different avatars?
I believe your avatar is determined by what email you put in when making the comment.
*hugs*
Ah, there we go. The other shoe dropping. This is going to be a fun visit for Joyce and Becky.
Becky should show Carol the still-smoldering wreckage of what’s left of her closet. The one she nuked from orbit just to be sure.
Can’t, the National Guard has cordoned it off until the gaydiation declines to normal background level.
The answer to both of your questions is yes. To elaborate, anything would be worth my father being in prison.
Favourite part of this strip is definitely the third and fourth panels. Becky walks up to Replacement Mom and does the same thing with Hank; casually acknowledge them as she’s done before and waits for them to respond, and the body language is a lot more confident this time because, hey, Replacement Dad is already cool with it so obviously you’ll be too, right?
And then hope is shattered because it’s Dumbing of Age and David Willis is powered by our misery.
Sex with girls, and a crazy gun wielding zealot goes to prison? Definitely worth it.
“Yup, and now I’m going to say to you what I said to my dad.” She backs out of the room, manic grin on her face and twin middle fingers raised.
Muahahaha, totally my new headcanon for the scene!
To every positive there is a negative.
Joyce’s dad is super okay?
Her mom is not.
yaaaaaay we all called it
Welll.. at least she’s *asking*. Progress is progress.
No, he’s not in prison because Becky’s gay. He’s in prison for bringing a gun to a college campus and kidnapping.
Okay, so everyone is rightfully focused on the Bad MomTM of the comic, but I want to focus on something happier: JUST LOOK AT THE DOG’S FACE IN PANEL ONE: Who’s a good happy dog that isn’t homophobic? Who’s a good happy dog that just loves people for being nice kind people who gives you pats, no matter who they want to love? Who’s a good dog? You are! Yes you are!
“Didn’t you get married at my age? How can you be sure you’re really straight?
“Also, do you think that bringing a rifle onto a public campus to kidnap a legal adult and firing it is somehow not jail-worthy?
“Frankly, as much as I never want to see him again, I’m just happy that he’s still alive. Because there was about a zero percent chance that the cops weren’t going to gun him down. When Joyce knocked him out? She saved his life.
“What’s for dinner?”
+1
Would like to say this was unexpected….but it ain’t.
I think that Carol’s assumption is that Ross wouldn’t have done something like that if Becky hadn’t come out. I think she’s wrong about that. For such a violent personality, it was just a matter of finding an excuse to act out his violent dominance/ownership fantasies.
I’ve got a horrible feeling that Carol’s support of Ross may lead to uncomfortable revelations. Does she consider Ross a better Christian man than Hank? Did she ever go to him for ‘comfort’ when her frustration with Hank’s refusal to do something like “beat the sin out” of their kids got too great? I’m wondering if the weekend may end with divorce very much on the table because Carol cannot respect her husband’s compassion or abide by his wish that she doesn’t badger Joyce, Becky and Jocelyn.
Wow. Can’t tell if I hate her or Walky’s mom more now . . .
Ethan’s mom is pretty awful, too.
Becky: Yep, because me deciding I’m not actually into girls will magically make it so that my dad didn’t show up on a college campus with a gun, threaten both me and another person, fire the gun, and then kidnap me at gunpoint. Oh, that’s right, you don’t believe in magic.
Play together stay together gay together… wait. for. it…
Hooray for LEATHER!!!
Could Carol and Ross have had a thing?
And after reading about 200 comments I hop down to post right in the midst of others saying the same thing better.
A proud tradition of comment threads going back to the earliest days of USENET.
Yes and Yes.
THANKS mom.
Not sure how recanting her lesbian ways can erase the whole BRINGING A GUN TO A CAMPUS AND FIRING IT.
I bet Carol is mostly upset at the cops for arresting Ross when all he was doing was driving his daughter home. I mean, who hasn’t had to pick up their kids at gunpoint? Where are we going as a country when a father can’t force his adult daughter into his car with a gun?
This is a little too reminiscent of the Hoosier mentality. It’s victim blaming at it’s core. “You asked for it because you’re a lesbian.”
Nothing about shooting a gun on campus and kidnapping someone and trying to kill someone else can be excused by someone’s beliefs on homosexuality or religion. And, before the hate train starts, I’m simply seeing this from an ultraconservative, backwater Xian perspective, not saying that there is something wrong with batting for the other team. Regardless of what she did in his eyes, he’s the one who started shooting on campus.
Yeah, this sounds… dreadfully realistic re: Carol’s understanding of the situation.
Response: “Dunno> Pretty sure I have been IN love with your daughter my whole life.”.
“Also, we have totally had sex.”
Cue Carol doing the patented Joyce!FreakoutFace.
I can’t hug a fictional character, so anyone here who needs a hug, let’s pretend I can send one to you psychically. [HUGS]
“I don’t know… was my dad refusing to accept it really worth pulling a gun on your daughter? Cus that was all him, not me
Now, what’s for eats, Mrs. B?”
“Rain check on the hug”
Rain check on the singular hug.
One hug, when talking to both Joyce and Becky. As in not for both of them, and I’m guessing it’s not for Becky.
Carol… Becky needs the unconditional love of family right now, and whether either of you has ever explicitly acknowledged it before or not, you must know that she’s a part of your family.
You’re an ass, Carol.
One hug for the lesbian, homeless and alone,
Four hugs for the family, once they all get home,
No hugs for the violent man, locked in heartless stone.
Three will depart, and one stay alone.
(I can hope, right?)
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! I missed that one, but now when you point it out… and it is sure to be just the first of many, MANY passive aggressive comments of the same kind.
“You are not welcome here” is what Carol is telling Becky. “You are not welcome here” is what she tells a girl who practically grew up under her roof, who’s mother is dead, who’s father is in prison, who is thrown out from her school and who is not taken away by her gun-wielding father ONLY because Carol’s own daughter.
FUDGE YOU, CAROL!!!
Nope, she stopped being part of the family when she “decided” she was gay. That’s how it works.
Of course, she’d be welcomed back into the fold if she repented, and gave up those crazy ideas the Outside put in her head, and asked forgiveness of God and everyone she’s wronged…
And away we go…
Joyce will never win a “Your Mum” joke competition NOW
Aaaaand, it’s official. I hate Joyce’s mom more than I hate Toedad.
oooh boy. This is going to be a slog. Becky, poor sweet Becky, how could you not have forseen the coming disaster
She has. She just hoped for the best, because in situation like this, literally EVERYTHING is a coming disaster with 50% chance of realizing. Your only option to get ANY good is to just brace yourself to weather the disasters and keep taking the risk.
Number of consecutive strips without Carol saying something horrible: zero.
Now, now. Be fair. Carol didn’t say anything horrible in This strip.
How can you say that? She questioned the amount of stuffed animals she had. That’s morally reprehensible on every thinkable level.
That strip (and all other strips Carol has appeared in before) was very much not consecutive with today’s strip.
<q cite="Can you REALLY be sure you’re a lesbian at your age..”>
Yes, she can, believe it
“in the psyche wing for that matter”
okay how about fuck you
@Willis this is the shit that you tolerate in your comment section and it keeps keeps keeps keeps piling up and at some point the ability to tolerate it and trade the bad for the good just SNAPS
(No, mentally ill people are not more likely to be violent. There’s no psychiatric treatment for bigotry and abusiveness. Mentally ill people are much more likely to be abused than to abuse.)
Liliet, you’re taking what I said the wrong way entirely, and I’m a little mystified as to how that happened. I’m not in any way, shape, or form, saying ‘mentally ill people are violent’; what I am (and DID) say, is Beckys’ father acts like he’s mentally ill, or perhaps a better phrase for me to have used there would have been ‘criminally insane’. I apologize if you misunderstood me.
Liliet didn’t really misunderstand you. While perhaps the blow-up at Willis for not nuking it from orbit is a bit much, there is an actual issue with your comment.
Your comment falls into a trope popular in media (both fiction and, unfortunately, sometimes the news) that attributes any evil that is incomprehensible to us to some form of mental illness. The simple fact is that evil isn’t a mental illness, it’s just evil, and the ‘criminally insane’ that we see in popular fiction isn’t actually insane by either medical or legal definitions. The vast majority of Batman villains, for example, don’t actually belong in Arkham Asylum, just a regular ol prison (preferably one with better security).
Toedad is evil. Toedad is CONFOUNDINGLY evil. It’s reassuring to chalk this up to some disease with Toedad’s brain. This makes sense of it, makes it something quantifiable and gives us hope that it will someday be curable. The problem is, when we associate ‘this level of evil must be a mental illness’, it adds to the stigma of actual mentally ill persons by lumping that evil in with them. Even if it’s paired with paying lip-service to the fact that no, not all mentally ill persons are dangerous, it adds on a silent ‘but some of them are really scarily dangerous like ‘normal’ people could never be’.
The long and short of it is that no, Toedad does not “act like he’s mentally ill”. He acts evilly, which has nothing to do with mental illness.
I was just rereading the sequence, and actually Amazi-Girl sums it up quite succinctly:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/crazy-2/ (last panel)
speaking of fuck yous
Liliet, I have twin infants. I keep strange hours. When I am awake, I am invariably bottlefeeding, changing, or consoling them. Last night (well, this morning) I went to bed at 5am. And so it’s real fucking fun to get up and have fingers thrown at me for what I’ve “allowed.”
So, frankly, you can shove it.
(sorry, somehow the formatting butchered my post.. delete the previous one?)
“Can you REALLY be sure you’re a lesbian at your age..”
Yes, she can, believe it
“..and is it worth your father being in prison?”
Get your head out the sand, lady. He’s a violent asshole and prison is where he belongs, in the psyche wing for that matter; he brought a firearm onto a college campus and was willing to shoot people over something that should have been at worst a heated conversation! That’s not normal, that’s about as UNCOOL as it gets, and he should thank whatever god of blood and vengeance he believes in that he didn’t end up perforated courtesy of the local LEOs.
What’s more. The prison thing is out of everyone’s hands. It’s not the victim’s call to charge a person. It’s the DA’s call. And bringing a gun onto a college campus is a slam dunk.
Oh good. Let’s blame Becky for her father’s murderous rampage. Because Becky living in an abusive environment with a father who hates her and calls it God is infinitely better than Becky being a happy, well-adjusted kid surrounded by people who accept her for who she is.
FYI, Mrs. Brown? You’re driving away your daughter.
You know she’ll find a way to blame Becky.
“Yes, and that wasn’t up to me.”
Becky: well I’ll answer your questions if you answer mine: why does your home look like a Grandy’s?
Him waving around a gun on campus brought him into prison, not anyone being lesbian or whatever. Get the facts straight, lady.
I’d fap to this.
Oh, hey, actual competition for Linda Walkerton in “Willis’ worst moms” contest!
What about Ethan’s?
I literally have no memory of her even existing, sorry. I appear to have forgotten virtually all of what of Shortpacked I read at some point. Or did you mean here? Because I still haven’t actually started reading this properly. Just following updates, because… stuff. And trans girls.
There’s also the chance she showed up later than the point I’d read to, come to think of it.
Naomi Seigal.
Worst bit is “Placate” et seq. when she pressures Ethan to wash the gay away by sleeping with Joyce, early and often.
Dishonorable mention also for “Mrs S” et seq. when she accuses Amber turning Ethan gay.
Ohhh… Dumbiverse Ethan’s Mom. Yeah, a handful of scattered strips from various point and this latest bit starting from about where Mary drags Carla out to attack her, and a bit of the beginning is all I’ve read of this so far. I’m working on catching up on/refreshing on/finishing out Walkyverse stuff for now, but I can’t stop coming back for new strips.
I was only kind of vaguely aware from seeing him a few times that Ethan was even IN this, so the “sleeping with Joyce” caught me off-guard for a second.
I dunno, I feel like she’s at least on par with Naomi. That lady is scary, and we don’t even have religion to blame for it.
Linda’s a bad parent, but at least it’s your everyday bad parenting and seems for the most part unintentional.
Whoops, that’s not a reply. See Nezumi’s post above. =P
You’re thinking of Dumbiverse Linda. I’m thinking of Walkyverse Linda. Her bad parenting is “Everyday Bad Parenting” in much the sense you could describe an axe wound nearly severing your torso as “A particularly nasty papercut.”
I’d still argue that Walkyverse!Linda was more likable than DoA!Linda.
At last Gendomom tried.
For all I know, Dumbiverse Linda is literally an enormous garden snail. I’m focusing on Walkyverse, and I’ve only seen scattered strips of this, plus most of the most recent (starting from about the Mary/Carla bit) and the very first few strips.
As for why I’m even here… I’m not sure, except that I can’t stop reading the new stuff as it comes, despite all that.
It can be so bizarre knowing that this is what a number of Christians ACTUALLY BELIEVE. Especially in having grown up in a religious but not nearly has extreme household.
Like, and I think MY family’s homophobic. And yet they’re saints compared to this.
Here we go folks
*Grabs Fritz Helmet and ducks behind couch*
Damn, Mrs. Brown. “Can you REALLY be sure your a lesbian at your age?” is horrible, I knew at age 5 I liked girls and wanted Barbie to marry other Barbie, and could I someday marry my neighbor Kelly. Kids learn quick though that many grown ups frown on that and just keep quiet til they’re older… And Becky is 18!!! An adult. If she liked boys, Mrs. Brown wouldn’t say “Can you REALLY be sure you’re a heterosexual at your age?”
Plus, “and is it worth your father being in prison?”!!!Like that was Becky’s choice. She just wanted her father to love her for who she is.. He is in prison because he broke the law and was a terrible person, not because she is gay. Lots of gay people have parents that DON’T go to prison. Or kidnap them and hold guns to their and their friend’s heads, and assault their girl/boyfriends.
I’m kinda envious of gay&bi people for that. Being asexual is a much, much harder thing to realize and be sure of. Absence is not a noticable presence.
Oh Carol, your greeting was everything I hoped for and less.
I wonder if the preacher will be joining them for dinner? Someone’s stoking those fundamentalist fires, and whoever’s in control will want the “sinful heathen pervert” dealt with quickly.
Wow. Fuck you Carol. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
But I can check Dumbing of Age on my Wii U, so its okay.
i always win
10/10 good shit
Oh, well. I was kind of expecting her to pretend Becky was still straight and deny any argument to the contrary and derail any conversation on the subject.
Carol.
I just made this Gravatar to say “FUCK YOU, CAROL! FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU!!!”
Wow… That was a real heat of the moment one… And it passed immediately after…
Still hate her, though…
And, good feeling’s gone.
:/ He’s in prison because he went on a homophobic gun rampage.
Hmm, yes, aaaand yes!
Good talk! So how about them local sports teams?
Wow. Got all this optimism from Joyce’s dad who managed to reconcile everything and have it immediately all ruined by Joyce’s horrible mother.
answer to 1: does it really matter? answer to 2: among sane people those 2 things don’t really correlate.
Seriously, to normal people “family member is gay” doesn’t mean “I should brandish and fire a shotgun on a college campus.” Whatever your religious convictions may be.
“I dunno, Mrs. B. Was my dad waving a shotgun in my face and threatening to murder your daughter NOT enough reason for him to be in prison now?”
Certain? Probably not, but she seems to be comfortable with it, which makes it likely. She might be bi, but that’s another story.
As for dumbshit being in prison, he has no one to blame for that but himself.
Of course I’m sure he WILL blame everyone but himself for it.
As is usually the case with such things.
That’d be a yes, aaaaaaaaaaaand a yes.
Fucking hell yes, even.
A terrible thought just occurred to me… I’m predicting that Joyce’s mother was the one to tell Ross where Becky was… I mean, Joyce lied to her to say she hadn’t heard from Becky, but Joyce isn’t a very convincing liar…
The horrifying part of this isn’t that she clearly doesn’t like lesbians. She’s entitled to her beliefs and her opinions as long as they don’t hurt others.
The horrifying part is that she clearly feels it’s Becky’s actions of being a lesbian and not her bather’s actions of breaking the law that resulted in his being in prison. It terrifies me that if Joyce hadn’t been rescued at that party and the guy had gone to jail that her mom would have yelled at her “was y our being a slut really a good reason for that boy to go to prison”
yeaaaahhhhh fuck her mom, i like her dad but her mom sucks
more importantly, fuck the shit that turned her mom from probably a perfectly nice person to the equivalent of a certian mister gun toting jerwad without violent tendencies
all that noise needs to burn, joyce is not just a character, she is millions of people happening all the time all over the world
and so is joyces mom, and beckys dad, and that breaks my heart that people turn into that because of stupid nonsense from a fucking book that gets almost everything it wrong
He aimed a gun at Joyce and vowed to murder people INCLUDING HER if they got in his way.
Is being a homophobe really more important to you than your daughter’s life?