I took it more as that he used to know for sure that she was a good kid, and though there’s now some doubt, he’s attempting to trust Joyce’s opinion. “And if you still think so, then I trust you that she still is.”
I don’t think he used the ‘was’ to mean she is no longer a good kid. I expect it’s that he knows they’re both adults now, but he knows Joyce better, and he had to look to his faith for advice with Joyce and he still has a bit of processing to do with Becky. She’s done something which, by his faith, he believes is wrong, but he wants to do the right thing by someone he cares about and accept that even if he disagrees with something, it’s not his place to judge.
TL;DR Mr Brown is a good, understanding man, he just needs time to process things that go against his own personal code.
Plus, I think he’s trying to reinforce that he respects Joyce’s judgement. When he knew Becky, she was a good kid; she and Joyce are not kids any more, and Becky isn’t the same person he knew (or thought he knew) when she was a child, so he’s going to trust Joyce’s judgement that she’s still a good person.
The way I read it, he’s saying, “I know for sure that she used to be good, and now I am trusting your opinion that she still is.” Since he hasn’t had any contact with her since before everything happened, it’s a reasonable stance.
Yeah but he followed it with saying he was going to trust Joyce in believing she still IS a good kid. His beliefs and the people whom he knows tell him she’s supposed to be a bad kid now but he’s trying to trust his daughter and be more open about people.
That’s how I took it. I know she was a good kid. My faith says her defying her parents and being all queer are proof she is no longer “good”, but you have faith in her and see value in her and see someone who is good at heart, so I will trust your instinct over what my faith says I should view Becky as.
I for one say thank goodness for small victories. Hank is showing a rationality that we haven’t seen from a lot of the other “super-Christians” and I love seeing Christians practicing what Jesus really preached: love and understanding. If it takes him a while to open up or if he never does, at least he’s willing to come this far and not reject a struggling young person based on something they have no control over.
That he’s even trying is nice to see. Not even Joyce accepted it so quickly, though having a trusted loved one other than Becky herself vouching probably helps.
Digging deep for more humility instead of blowing up is great too, both as a joke and as an example to follow.
My mom’s an atheist, and she would already be yelling about how lesbians shouldn’t be doing that in public. (Being near each other and saying goodbye, like a normal couple. :p) Hank is WAY ahead of the curve when it comes to trying to be a decent person.
…lesbians specifically, or is she just opposed to public displays of affection? I don’t agree with either view, but prudishness is a lot more forgivable than homophobia.
One of the things I’ve learned in life is that it turns out homophobia gets a lot of support from religious groups but exists in vast quantities outside of it. Hell, look at [insert Godwin] and [insert other secular atheist asshat governments.]
I also would imagine that he did a lot of praying over what Toedad did. The two of them probably had very similar, if not identical views, but recent events would have made Hank think about just how far he was willing to take his beliefs, and what the consequences of that might be.
A long time friend aiming a rifle at your daughter will do that to you.
Aww Joyce
Aww Hank
Loads of aww for everybody in this strip. 🙂 *(O wait, that’s just Joyce and Hank). Loads of aww for everybody else mentioned in this strip too. 😀
Wow, they really ruined him like that? I mean I get he was supposed to be a bit… over the top, but that second part? The show has really gone down hill. 🙁
I think this is pretty much the best possible outcome, considering Hank’s religious views. I mean, it makes sense, you’d mostly expect Joyce’s parents to be pretty much like Joyce but with a more set worldview. Really, even though they attended the same church, it seems like Joyce’s parents and Ross show the difference between decent people with strong ingrained religious beliefs and assholes with strong ingrained religious beliefs. (Like the difference between Joyce and Mary.)
To be fair, Sierra’s dad seemed cool enough. And, while Dina’s parents insisted on being hospitable to Blaine, they didn’t know why they shouldn’t be, so that shouldn’t be held against them.
I read so many of those books. I especially liked his attempts to use words that he either made up or got wrong. Like when he snuck into the pickup bed using “syruptishus loaderation”. Called syruptishus because you moved slow, like syrup.
It’s like he’s a Chog with two spines, a cross scar, and a rainbow haired bullet throwing girlfriend. Wait, wrong Hank Lotsa points if you get the reference though
If i knew my little comment would create this I would have still done it, but I would have had one or two to add myself beyond the one hank I know (propane and propane accessories)
If taking down Hank’s homophobia was the first Gym, Carol’s is gonna be the fucking Champion.
And not a weak one, I’m talking Cynthia-level difficulty curve.
While it isn’t completely accurate to its roots, homophobia has come to mean a fear, hatred, or distrust of homosexuals, which I believe was the making used in this context.
while if everything is going good it is boring if everything is always horrid it is painful but also semi predictable so i like that it is being a mix.
Willis likes to give us little bits of encouragement. That way, we keep the shred of faith in humanity alive in our hearts so that we still feel enough to be devastated when something inevitably goes wrong.
That’s… very possible. Trans issues can often be an entirely different kettle of fish than queer issues and elicit very different responses even from people who are very queer-supportive, much less someone going into minor brain shock from the notion that a girl has a girlfriend.
I imagine when Jocelyne comes out, she’s probably going to lose both her parents.
Sometimes people can surprise you (I am aware that does not match your experiences though). When my son came out as trans to us we let our families in on it as well with the caveat that if anyone had any issues with it they were to keep it to themselves or we would cut that person out of our lives entirely in order to protect him because he had a hard enough road to travel. I expected some blowback from a few people, but truth be told everyone, even the fundies in the group, have been open and accepting.
It is, in a very real sense, one of the worst political alliances in living memory, at least in the USA. Like, not ‘worst’ in terms of what they want, but worst in terms of their ability to function as an alliance that doesn’t hate other members of the alliance.
I’m guessing it’s high probability that she will, and he’s saying these things knowing it. He believes God is telling him to listen to Joyce; he’s not going to give up what God says to do just because his wife wants him to.
He’s allergic to kissing? I think apoplexy was the word you were looking for. It’s actually a symptom of pulmonary hypertension but used to be believed was caused by severe sudden emotional stress.
Hank: “And is that your atheist… um, friend behind them?”
Joyce: “And her mixed-race boyfriend!”
Hank: “… yeah, okay, that’s fine. Just don’t mention it to grandpa.”
Joyce: “She wants to be the first atheist president and the first woman president!”
Hank: …. *coronary*
You can’t be President of the US until minimum age 35. Assuming Dorothy is 18 now, the soonest she can be president is in 17 in-comic years. So we’re looking at, what, 500 rl years? That’s a pretty pessimistic outlook.
lol! when you put it that way, i hadn’t until this moment fully appreciated just how diverse joyce’s world had suddenly gotten! mixed-race and atheists and lesbians, oh my!
He seems a bit unsteady, but sure. And Joyce, in her own way, could also be a Gryffindor.
Let’s see. Other characters.
… why? BECAUSE DERAIL, that’s why.
Dorothy: ANY OF THEM. (Hey, the sorting hat sometimes give you the choice.) She’s clever and studious enough for Ravenclaw, firm enough in her convictions for Gryffindor, civic-minded enough for Hufflepuff, and ambitious enough for Slytherin.
Becky: GRYFFINDOR.
Amber/Amazi-Girl: Gryffindor.
Sarah: Any save Hufflepuff
Dina: Ravenclaw. MAYBE Hufflepuff.
Billie: Gryffindor or Hufflepuff.
Ruth: Gryffindor or Slytherin.
Sal: Gryffindor. Fighter all the way.
Danny: HUFFLEPUFF.
Mike: Ravenclaw. (Not Slytherin. He’s got zero ambition. But he IS clever.)
Walky and Joe: No clue.
Yeah, I wasn’t sure about Walky or Joe either. They don’t work hard enough to be Hufflepuffs, so I guess Walky would make a good Ravenclaw? Joe doesn’t have much in the way of ambition that we’ve seen, so if he’s anything like his Walkyverse self Ravenclaw might fit him well too. I think Billie would make a good Slytherin though; she’s willing to be underhanded to get her way, and while she’s a little lacking in the ambition department, her courage isn’t so great either.
Any except Hufflepuff for Sarah? She works hard and cares deeply about the handful of people she permits herself to care about.
Does Joe ‘just’ have sex all the time in the same way Mike looks for chunks in people’s armor to stick his blade thru, or is it Joes ambition to sex with all the ladies on campus who his particular moral standards put out of bounds?
Slytherin is also cunning/ gameplaying. Ambition is kinda the PR face of the silver and green. Mike fits the other attributes fairly well.
Danny would make a decent gryffindor, I think, but his difficulty to place does default him to hufflepuff, even in absence of the hard working aspect.
Dorothy: Ravenclaw or Slytharin. I feel the former, she’s motivated mostly by intelligence, the ambition seems to be secondary.
Becky: Gryffindor.
Amber: Gryffindor.
Sarah: Slytherin. She’s evil smart and mean, and will screw people to keep herself safe.
Dina: Ravenclaw. Intelligence first.
Billie: Hufflepuff. She’s loyal, just usually in the worst possible way.
Ruth: Rejected. She doesn’t care about being smart, only looks out for herself enough to keep the status quo, not to advance, she’s definitely not loyal to those she’s charged with protecting, and she backed down when confronted with danger. She’s going to have to step up somehow before I can sort her anywhere.
Sal: She’s loyal and brave. Could go either way.
Danny: Loyal to a fault, even when it’s a terrible idea.
Mike: Walkyverse I’d say Hufflepuff, surprisingly, but here I’m not sure. We haven’t really seen enough of him to know.
Walky: Ravenclaw. He is smart, he just needs to work at it more.
Joe: Who?
Carla: Gryffindor. She’ll gladly invite trouble rather than change anything about herself. Hell, just look at her outfit last time.
When has Sarah ever thrown someone under the bus for her own benefit? Dana was in a downward spiral. Sarah was helping, and sacrificed Raidah and the others’ opinion of her to do so. Protecting her own academics was a factor, yes, but I would argue that it just pushed her to see how bad Dana was getting.
As for Sal, Gryffindors value loyalty too. It’s her hard work that would make her a good fit for Hufflepuff, but that didn’t come naturally to her; if she requested Hufflepuff, I’m sure the hat would place her there and she’d do well, but she’s a shoe-in for Gryffindor.
Disagree completely on Dorothy. For her, knowledge is not an end to itself; it’s the means by which she will one day gain control of America’s nuclear arsenal. If that’s not ambition, and thus Slytherin, in spades, then nothing is.
I don’t buy that ambition alone is enough for Slytherin. If so, any politician would be in Slytherin, and that didn’t seem to be the case. Wiki lists cunning as a “nice” requirement, but I’d say the big thing is a sort of scheming. Maybe it can be a good scheming for good things, but it’s still scheming.
There’s also the huge self-preservation instinct, while Dorothy is so others focused that I almost want to put her in Hufflepuff. She studies for herself, but she’s all about being a loyal friend.
Then there’s just what she’s doing for her goals. It’s all schoolwork. Not learning oratory or people skills. Not running for school politics. Not going out and being a political activist of any kind. Being any sort of community leader. It’s all studying, all the time.
She just doesn’t seem to be power hungry enough for Slytherin. I think even a Gryffendor could run for president to protect people. Why not a Ravenclaw, to be the smart person who knows how to do things?
I imagine Dorothy would pick Slytherin when the hat’s hemming and hawwing over the options, then immediately regrets it when she realizes she can’t stand any of her housemates.
I’d be inclined to sort Joyce into Gryffindor. They value loyalty too, and it takes some serious courage to confront the ugliness in what she was taught.
That, and they tend to end up with all the main protagonists. Hufflepuff is a good fit too, though.
Joyce is the main character, so obviously Gryffindor. Hank is a secondary character whom no one really cares about, so obviously Hufflepuff. Dina is a nerd, so obviously Ravenclaw. Mary is a villain, so she obviously goes into the Slytherin Designated Villain Repository. Dorothy gets the Gryffindor Major Character Override, regardless of any other houses that she might be better suited for.
I think this is way better than trying. He’s actually thought about it, and cast off 50+ years of religious upbringing in favour of trusting his daughter and her friend as good people. It’ll take him more than a couple days to be okay with seeing Becky kiss a lady, but he is still going to ‘smile and nod’ and not be a jerk about it. This is a very good place to start.
The highest barrier to change is often the recognition that it has to happen. Now, this may happen on many subjects, and there may be many barriers, but that first “I’m not infallible and neither are my influences” barrier is often the most difficult to clear.
I’m sure he’s going to screw up and regress at points, but good on him here, recognizing perhaps his long-held beliefs are not necessarily the right answers. And even if he does regress, he’s shown the capacity to grow.
“Tolerant, but not stupid! Look, just because you have to tolerate something doesn’t mean you have to approve of it! …”Tolerate” means you’re just putting up with it! You tolerate a crying child sitting next to you on the airplane or, or you tolerate a bad cold. It can still piss you off!” — Mr. Garrison
I think he’ll be fine so long as no one mentions Dina’s principle interest to him. I think he’d actually have more issues with that than he does with her homosexuality.
I’m so FUCKING THANKFUL that Hank is okay with Becky. He did the smart thing and trusted Joyce on the situation, which is the best thing to do. See, not all Christians are evil.
However, Carol may be a piece of counter-evidence to that statement. Let’s see how it goes.
That’s just the relief getting the previous dread out of the way so that you can sense the next iteration of dread that the previous dread was masking.
I love how accepting Hank is becoming, even though at the end of this strip he struggles a bit. But the fact that he’s trying to be understanding about this makes me feel happy.
Joyce’s mom on the other hand…She won’t be happy at all. I wouldn’t put it too far out there to say possible marriage issues.
The last panel makes it much more realistic and just makes me more hopeful, honestly. He’s still struggling with the beliefs he’s had ingrained in him for so long, but it’s a very straightforward show of how he is recognizing his own reaction and how he’s going to have to work on it.
That said, how well things are going with him, we can probably expect all hell to break loose with Mrs. Brown. I just hope Becky will chill some; there’s no avoiding Mrs. Brown knowing Becky is a lesbian at this point, but if she starts talking evolution then shit will really hit the fan.
I’ve got a tiny niggling hope that she’d be able to justify it to them, suggest it’s a tool of God, and present evidence, but for that to have even a chance of success Carol would have to let her talk. I don’t have the heart to crush that hope myself.
I don’t have much hope for that situation, really, but on the positive side, I recently heard someone managed to convince a bunch of creationists that dinosaurs A) existed and B) had feathers.
I imagine a significant portion of her recent frustration was feeling like she would inevitably have some irreparable rift with her family. It’s probably a huge relief to know she still has at least her father’s love and trust.
I dunno. I’m thinking Carol will grumble a bit, maybe debate a little, but not go full-out fundie-lycanthrope. She’ll just be hugely relieved that Joyce is all right.
I’m speculation that some series of events with Becky might lead to the revelation that Joyce has a big sister.
I can see this happening—and a real Joyce-Jocelyn bonding moment as the outcome, which means that neither of them has to feel so alone going forward. (Please, Willis?)
Willis linked to a very personal post when the strip where Carol expressed her relief that Joyce was okay (“I’d die for you”), about how often he had that conversation with his own mom and how horrible it was and how emotionally blackmailed he felt, so I wouldn’t hold your breath for Carol just being relieved and accepting.
“Ok. I understand the kissing but why are they roaring like dinosaurs? Is that what gays do?”
“Well, Ethan didn’t do that, but I don’t really know a lot of lesbians so maybe.”
Quick question to the fundies and ex-fundies present, what does Hank mean when he says that the Lord told him? Is that literal, like he hears the voice of God speaking to him?
Very few people I’ve ever seen claim to hear a literal voice. The idea is usually that God is always trying to “speak” to everyone, to guide them into doing the right thing through impulses and emotions. The kind of prayer he’s talking about is almost a kind of meditation, where you try to open yourself up to God to receive and understand those little messages he’s trying to send.
Basically they equate the conscience with the voice of God.
Seconded. Former fundie with fundie family here, and everything I’ve ever heard is just… Sensation. A sense of peace when they feel like they’re on the right track at last, ascribed to divine intervention.
I’ve felt that, myself; made the same ascription. It’s a really nice feeling; like the world just… Finally makes sense for a little while.
It occurs to me that since Joyce’s phone call, where she declared her support for Becky, Hank and Carol must have discussed this situation. I wonder what that conversation sounded like.
Honestly, with Toedad’s rampage, their entire community (their church group, I mean) must have discussed it. No gossip like church gossip.
I actually wonder about if they ever even heard her voice mail. I mean, Carol immediately called Joyce back after she left the message. It’s possible that as soon as Carol saw who the message was from, she called back and then forgot about the voice mail in her relief that Joyce was OK.
To me it sounds more like: “She was able to convince me with citing the bible!
I was suspecting her to failing her belief, but she was proving me that she knows better what the word of god actually is. I did not exhaustive study of the bible (which i should have and she did) so i will trust her.”
I’ve always thought of it as a strong emotional response towards a certain thing. I’ve heard people say “God called me to do such and such,” and I always thought of it as feeling a sudden strong desire to take your life that direction. In this case it would be thought of as through his prayers, he has come to the realization that Joyce is old enough to make reasonable decisions and judgments on her own and that he should trust the daughter that he raised.
The Lord sent him an email with his opinion on the subject, Hank responded that he’d prefer a formal phone call. God met him in the middle and just sent his thoughts via mail. Fortunately, heaven has a great mail system and he got his letters in 2-3 business days.
Meanwhile, Satan managed to get on the dev team that programs the spam filters. This is why some other Christians (the email ones) either didn’t get the message or got one with key portions blocked.
There’s the literal voice crowd for sure, but Hank seems to me the dawning-realisation-while-praying-that-he-should-be-accepting-this type. Or maybe the gradual-realisation-of-what-certain-passages-have-to-say-about-each-other type.
Something I haven’t seen mention of today is his explicit admission of Joyce’s authority over herself. This is a huge contrast with the dragging away and (as was pointed out yesterday) passive-aggressive laying-on-of-hands of his last visit.
USian pentecostalism has an enormous problem with allowing women to have opinions, let alone with men deferring to them. Hank’s stepping a long long way outside his tribe here, and I’m wondering if we’re going to find a Carol who isn’t just panicking over oh noes teh gays but who is also possibly adrift with having her own role (as one who should look to Hank for authority in all things) being redefined.
(aside aside: trawling back to get a handle on Carol, I find this weird thing where Hank is echoing Becky. Damn you Willis, you mad masterful genius.)
It’s also likely he might be reconsidering his attitude towards gays, children (and maybe even women), in light of what Ross did. Realizing that Ross’s actions are driven by an extreme version of his theology, he’s rejecting it.
I wouldn’t assume that at all, because it’s really not what Hank said.
Rejecting parts of the Bible they don’t like isn’t how the Browns operate, either;remember that Joyce tried to find a loophole re: the gay thing, and felt incredibly guilty about it.
Mr. Brown says he feels God has asked him to trust her judgment, and he’s extending that to Becky; I think if he meant “our neighbor’s attempted murder spree gave me second thoughts about Leviticus,” he would’ve said something about having a crisis of faith.
the first and only religious friend ive ever had said that god used to talk to her and she could talk back. i always just assumed she wanted to sound special
It varies from person to person, my mother feels like she had literal conversations with God at some point, I feel like God waits til I’m in a nice and religious experience-y mood (has happened twice)
Now the only confusing thing about that is that during both experiences I have interpreted the feeling I got as “I should be a priest… And also God’s saying I should just f*** my boyfriend.” So I don’t know what the fuck is up with God’s messages.
I was being sarcastic. And you’re right about that, I doubt nothing will please some of these people. Maybe they’ll be happy because he’s a good Christian who’s a dude.
Are you kidding? I’ve seen some of the Willis haters. The ones i noticed are the sort who aren’t in it for bigotry so much as just because they enjoy having something to hate, though I’m pretty sure a lot of them, maybe as many as 40%, are pretty bigoted.
I dont have anyone/anything i really hate. im to lazy for that stuff. I mean do you realize how exhausting it is to always be hating something. Now dislike thats another story. or irritated/annoyed but never full on hate.
Yep. Nicely done. I think the refreshing bit is that he’s doing good things due to his faith, not despite it. (And honestly, virtually everyone else with a religious background is shown ‘overcoming it admirably’. Even Joyce is about 60/40, and she’s pretty much the best counterexample.)
Actually, I think this is kinda true?
I think Hank is closer to the kind of character that at least that one commenter, the one Willis responded to with a picture of Becky, would be looking for.
But maybe only for this one strip.
If he has too strong an arc, then no.
If he is used as a proxy for the toleration vs acceptance argument, no matter the stance the narrative takes on it, then yes. Because this is a character driven story.
So long as he is fleshed out as a character and ascribes to what they believe to be an open-mindedness, they should still like him.
Well, that guy was explicitly looking for a nice Christian bigot, so I’m not sure if anything’s going to satisfy him.
Hank’s probably as close as we’re going to get, but if he doesn’t get in some good lecturing to Becky about how homosexuality is a sin, but he loves her anyway and will pray for her to repent, I don’t think he’ll qualify.
Which is just fine by me.
They’re not “characters”. No lines, no storyline, no character traits, no names. Doing anything else is acting like they’re real people who, I guess, have feelingt that need to be considered, or backstories that exist independently of The Boss drawing/writing them. Which they don’t. That’d be ridiculous.
It’s as if I were to say that the guys who bullied Danny and the various people AmaziGirl beats up represent the majority of people on campus’ views about life. It’d just be projection, and someone doing that would be telling you way more about themselves and their brains than anything relating to “the world” of the comic.
Don’t you know? It’s smearing to imply that ANY Christian isn’t practically perfect in every way. Doesn’t matter how many good examples there are; if there are any bad examples, they will refuse to accept the work.
For a work by a dude who has a rep for being a hyper leftist tumblr pandering Ess Jay Double U, I can’t recall a series with as much positive representation of Christian characters, as in folks who don’t just say “oh yeah god and stuff” and go on with their day but actually all have complex relationships with their faith given importance to various degrees for each character, as Dumbing of Age has.
Whether you accept others or not is, in the end, your own right as a person to decide. But toleration is what you owe everyone, as a basic matter of decncy.
(Except the arseholes — you don’t need to tolerate the arseholes).
I think this is just about the very best we could hope for. It’s not like Hank would suddenly stop hating homosexuality, but he will smother his bigotry in love for his Pretty-Much daighter.
I feel like Hank’s bias comes more from being old-fashioned rather than straight-up bigotry. The fact that he’s willing to be cool about Becky shows that he’s at least trying to be understanding, which is better than nothing.
I don’t think this is about just burying it in love for Joyce. I think this honestly IS what he said — humility to realize he might be wrong, respect for the wisdom of the woman his daughter’s turning into, and genuine welcome for the best friend of said daughter who’s been a guest at their house who knows how many umpteen times before and just went through a really shitty experience.
This is what Joyce went through too. Her abstract prejudices ran face-first into real people and the prejudices lost out. (Slowly. With many death throes.) Is it so hard to think that the apple fell far from the tree?
Agreed, a lot. Assumin’ you know the absolute will of God on all things, and that your perception never needs to change… That sounds to me like a particularly poisonous version of the sin of pride.
I’d prefer he be the kind of christian who never even considered that hatin’ folk was part of God’s will, but I’ll take what I can get.
Same. My dad wasn’t particularly religious, so he didn’t used to think that being gay was WRONG, but he had only known one queer person (my uncle) who was very deeply mentally ill (unrelated to his sexuality) and super unhappy. My dad equated queerness with a bad life and was really sad for me when I came out initially.
He got over it. About a year ago, he emailed me a discussion that he had been having with my aunt, where he was trying to encourage her to move away from her religiously-justified homophobia, by saying that Jesus’ only real rule was to love each other. And then he thanked me for making him a better father and a better person.
So now I’m tearing up in public, but. Dads can learn. PEOPLE can learn. Hank wanting to learn is a really good step.
Yes, my dad too, a good man who had a rough road growing up, who wanted to learn from his kids, and did. Bless him. AND, thanks for this strip, Willis, it put me in touch with some good feelings I’d kind of lost grasp of.
Hank’s being… reasonable and accepting that there are some things his daughter is going to understand better than him? And… he’s actually turning out to be an okay person? And his presence and actions are actually making things just a little bit better for the main characters?
I legitimately don’t know how to respond to this. Did I accidentally click on the wrong webcomic?
No, you just fell through the hole in the space-time continuum into the parallel universe where Willis tries to reassure us everything is going to be okay.
…. did you just use the phrases “hole in the space-time continuum” and “everything is going to be okay” in the same sentence there?
But no, this story’s going to be about Joyce being lulled back into her Christian community after Toedad alienated her from it. It’ll remove a lot of the worries she has but will also regress some of the progress she’s made. So I predicteth.
So I gotta be honest, I’m not really on board with going “yay for not being the worst person” for Hank. I’m glad he’s learning that a lot of his preconceived notions about Becky are wrong and deserved to be questioned, that he needs to accept that he might not be correct and place faith in his daughter, but, eh. I’m not really up for praising someone for as basic a standard of human decency as “gay people are ok i guess”.
What’s more interesting to me is Joyce’s reactions through the strip. She’s genuinely concerned she’ll be back in the same place she was with Dorothy, having to protect somebody she loves from somebody else she loves and who should be listening to her, and gradually loosens up to the point where she’s happily introducing Becky’s girlfriend to her dad, because listening to him here made her trust him enough to outright show him that, yep, Becky’s gay. It’s real and there’s her girlfriend and they smooch on the mouth and talk about sweet dinosaur facts all the time.
I’m sitting at let’s just say cautious optimism with a large dollop of cynicism. Hank’s growth is important and sadly, a large step for him, and it’s meant the world to both Becky and Joyce here in this moment, but as he’s starting from such a large point back, he’s very likely to say something incredibly messed up this weekend. And that could sting all the more.
I also hope that this is the beginning of real growth rather than just a “okay, I view her kinda like a person, we’re good” (I think it might be, but I’m hesitant to trust it). Especially since my uncle was super fond of pulling a constant bait and switch with initial expressions of support. No, I really am trying, please patiently explain everything. (five hours later over the phone) [hateful slurs] and bigoted rants about genitals.
I don’t think Hank is going to do that, but I’m definitely on guard for him to do something sometime this weekend that reminds us of just how much he’s working through with trying to be supportive.
I’m expecting that too, and I haven’t even been conditioned to expect that kind of shit from people. I wonder what it’d take to crack Becky’s cheerful facade.
Still, he’s genuinely trying. That’s the first step.
Well so far it’s taken rejection by her first love and literally being kidnapped at gunpoint by her father. Assuming Becky is putting up a facade it’s made of like 2 feet of reinforced concrete.
I think everyone whose actually queer is pretty much in the “Okay this is nice so far but don’t let yourself forget that it could go to shit at the drop of a hat” boat with you.
Looking at my own experiences un-learning bigotry, that he’s going to screw something up is basically a given to me. It’s an issue of how badly he screws it up, and whether he’s willing to stand up for something in support of Joyce and Becky even though he still subconsciously feels at best divided on it.
And from my experiences, my money is on “badly, and not yet,” respectively. Cuz, yeah. Live and learn, but damn if I don’t wish I could take back some things and actions and re-do them with the benefit of hindsight. And, also, my friends were far, far more tolerant of the learning process than I ever had any right to expect them to be.
Hank is in a dangerously ignorant spot right now. He doesn’t know what he doesn’t know, and that very often backfires.
PS, your input, and that of some other folks here, gets priority in my processing qeue when you’re talking about/from your experience. (Spencer, you even caused me to reevaluate and alter my understanding of Mike–if not to adapt yours.)
Cookies welcome, but not necessary: I don’t expect thanks or praise for TRYING in my feeble & stumbling way to do Right, I do it because that’s who I want to be and, on the other hand, people who have been Wronged by so many do not need always be optimistic and give every one The Benefit of the Doubt and hold a parade for every baby step or be patient and polite and tactful and saintly — not ALL the time, looking at you Cerberus — some of The Other Thing even breaks up the glacier a bit and can move society along. I think.
It’s not really praise for not dehumanizing gay people, more for, well, the title of the strip. Learning that you can be wrong is incredibly hard and embracing that you can be wrong is incredibly, what’s the word, valiant? Noble? Good? Awesome? Rare? One of the most important things you can possibly do as a human?
Humility is what allows people to take in information and grow from it but it’s not an easy virtue to obtain, not only because of our closed. offensive/defensive culture, but because the belief you have is a sure sign you haven’t. The attainment of humility is the constant attempt to attain humility. And a sincere show of that is praise-worthy, no matter where their beliefs currently stand. Because they want to know what’s right, not just to be right. And they have the greatest capacity to learn what that is.
I’m a full thimble and he’s and empty jug.
Sorry a lot of that didn’t quite make sense, I kinda dumbed some stuff down because I’m super tired and I also wrote bad because I’m super tired.
There are like, 2 incredibly similar thesis there and blah blah blah
Spencer: God, make everybody in the world an enlightened liberal humanist atheist.
God: Pffft. As if. W-wait. Actually, that’s a heaven of an idea. Done! Ah, blessed silence. No more calls about political campaigns and football games when I’m in the middle of reading the comments section of Dumbing of Age.
You know, on one hand, I do agree that his current bar isn’t that high in itself. Nothing to applaud about per se.
However, it used to be even lower. That’s important. He’s going in the right direction. And yes, such an improvement -should- be acknowledged in a positive manner; if for nothing else, then for the fact that positive reinforcement works a hell of a lot better than the opposite.
I mean, think about what you would say to Hank if you stood face to him. The two main options are (apologies in advance for corny dialogue, by the way; hopefully the meaning will be clear):
1: “I’m really glad you’re improving. I hope I can help you understand further how people that are different than you are still good.”
2: “Yeah, you’re finally being less of a dickhead now. Don’t expect any applause from me.”
Giving him the second type of response is not going to make him happy at all. It’ll only reinforce his opinion that people that aren’t properly subservient to God aren’t good people. It’ll make him regress.
Now, here’s a link to a story about someone who started out in a place far worse than Hank (Small warning: As the link title implies, it will talk about many of the horrible things the WBC does) :
The thing that strikes me the most in this article is that throughout this conversion, Megan Phelps-Roper was helped to convert away from WBC through friendliness. Yes, she was an awful person, but shouting at her how awful she was did nothing. Friendliness did. Thinking of her as a human being did. And I’m pretty damn sure those friendly people applauded her every step of the way, even when she was still below what could be called “basic human decency”. David Abitbol in particular must have had an almost saintly patience stretching over years in order to reach through to Megan. But the patience, thankfully, did pay off.
He still deserves a lot of credit for even contemplating that he could be wrong. Do you know how many people ever actually think that “hey, I might be the one in the wrong here”, on either side of the belief fence? It’s not a lot of people. The standard, human reaction is to go NO IT IS THEM WHO ARE WRONG and double down. Hell, even in this very comic, that’s pretty much what everyone except Joyce and now her dad always do.
It takes some serious brass balls to admit outloud that you could be wrong, and the two Browns have done so. That merits some praise.
I feel like a lot of us are not so much praising him for his own sake as we are “being IMMENSELY RELIEVED that he isn’t a hell of a lot worse” in his general direction.
Pretty much this. He’s stepped up to “basic decent human being”, which is well above what we were primed to expect.
And more: not so much his actual attitude, but his reasons for it are actually well above that mark. Learning from your kids and accepting their judgment is a really hard step for most parents, but even more so for someone coming out of the toxic “father/husband is boss and makes the decisions” culture they’re steeped in.
Joyce’s dad is learning, positive reinforcement is key. Tolerance and co-existence is the end goal here, judgement of him as a person is of secondary importance.
… Dammit, Hank, stop being so reasonable…it’s going to make it so much worse when your wife isn’t. >_>
I really like that he’s not actually 100% OK with the whole thing, but realizes he should be (Because Joyce is, and Becky’s still Becky), so is doing his best to be.
He’s…he’s trying, bless his well-meaning old heart. I do wonder what people mean when they say things like that, though, “God’s telling me to _______.” How’s God making his point known? 100% sincere, no snark, I’m just curious how that whole deal works.
Well, based on what friends who grew up in that faith said, it’s sort of the feeling that you get when you’re praying or sometimes you can even hear a little voice. So, something like that, I guess? It seems somewhat similar to guilt or cultural messaging or a conscience for secular folks.
Makes sense. I was raised Christian, but the only kind of feelings I ever had towards God were a vague sort of worry that he was reading my thoughts and finding them sinful.
Actually, god is not at all into weird shit. They hate it, but since they’re omniscient they can’t not see it. So yes, whenever people have anal sex, or group sex, or oral sex, god is watching , feeling, and tasting it. And god is disgusted, that’s why it’s forbidden.
And don’t even talk about slugs mating, that’s just horrifying.
The idea of an omnipotent, omniescient, omnipresent spirit/entity is pretty flexible. Such an entity choosing to communicate through gentle nudges like that makes a certain amount of sense, especially if for whatever reason It chooses to limit exercises of power to guiding and empowering.
I remember reading somewhere that supposedly up until medieval times people had a less developed understanding of their own consciousness and would attribute their internal monologue to the literal voice of (a) god telling them what to do.
Julian Jaynes The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind
Fascinating book, but pretty much not taken too seriously. Some of the ideas in it still have credibility, but not the basic thesis.
And it was supposed to have taken place much earlier, ca 1500 BCE and over a fairly long period.
Well I’m not particularly religious myself but from my understanding, people think God is always trying to “speak” to you in subtle ways which can include your emotions and conscience.
He said “How should I react to my daughter’s friend being gay” and suddenly “Why can’t we be friends” popped on the radio. He said he got the message and it changed to “It’s raining men”
“One step at a time, Lord, sheesh!”
It’s a feeling you get when considering certain paths or praying. It’s… well, it’s definitely prone to false positives, but I don’t disbelieve in it, either.
I came from a religious background, but not a “voice in the head” sort of religious background. The way I can explain how “God’s telling me” was taught to me would probably strike you as pretty mundane- it’s sort of like the old joke/story with “I sent you someone in a rowboat, a raft and a helicopter, how many more ‘signs’ do you need?”.
I would assume the decision to listen to what Joyce was saying came at least partly by how she kicked ass at using scriptural bases for what she was trying to get across (back when it was about Dorothy being an atheist). It’s kind of easy-mode to say ‘that was bullshit’, tbh. Arguing from inside the framework takes a lot of effort, and we see here that it paid off in his returning his respect.
Seriously, if he meant it (and I have no reason to say he doesn’t), it’s a rare parent that doesn’t just begrudgingly admit their kid’s old enough to have take seriously, but actually say “I need to listen to you, more.” And I’d say it’s largely because Joyce was ‘speaking the language’.
There are some who expect a literal voice or vision, maybe a dream. But for most of us, it’s akin to conscience, which, if you believe in God, makes sense. Why would God give a sense of, ” this feels wrong,” or “in spite of self-interest, I should…” unless it is meant to help?
Panel 1: Oh, man, Joyce is shook up to the point of stuttering. She’s really scared of this trip. It is such a good thing that Becky is going to be coming along for moral support.
Panel 2: Hank’s trying, but he’s pushing from a point deep back in faith. He’s got his edges up, viewing her queerness as something that takes away from her being a good girl, but also willing to admit that he might not have the right take on it after all and willing to take Joyce’s lead.
Whether it will be enough will depend on a lot of things, but this moment is very optimistic and heart-warming.
Panels 3 and 4: What gives a lot of hope is that he’s very introspective about his faith and his love for his younger daughter and his daughter-like figure trump the bigotry he’s been stewing in. He has been ruminating a lot on Joyce’s defiance, but instead of deciding that she’s “risking her soul”, he decides the problem might be with his intransigence and so decides to trust her. It’s not everything. It probably won’t stop him saying some epically fucked up shit. But it’s a starting point.
Panel 5: Heh, Dina/Becky cuteness gives BSODs to all the Browns.
No, the panel 3 face in the phone call is genuinely happy. She’s reconnecting with mom, she’s getting support and comfort where she’s always gotten it and where she wasn’t sure she would this time.
Then it all goes to hell in the next panel. And the chances are good this trip is going to follow the same progression. Not anywhere near as certain as I thought before today, but still likely.
I am very amused that Joyce is the one gleefully pointing out Becky’s gayness in the last panel it reminds me of the early strips of Becky gleefully outing herself to Joyce’s own endless consternation. I can’t remember the last time we’ve gotten such an unreserved smile out of her.
Awww I really like this development! I always appreciate people who are willing to learn, no matter how wrong they might have been before. Doesn’t change all the damage he has caused so far in life (to Joyce’s world view, mostly), but maybe he’s going to learn and change and their relationship can become healthier in the future. They hopefully have a lot of time left to make some better memories.
It’s good to remind ourselves that no one starts out completely aware and enlightened and no one should ever stop learning and trying to better themselves 🙂
I’m wondering how much direct influence he’s had on her worldview thus far. She mostly talks about what opinions her pastor(s) espoused and taught, not her Dad… but he is part of the same church.
Maybe that’s the plot twist. Carol’s actually really chill. She knew all along and is disappointed she doesn’t get to put on Becky and Joyce’s wedding anymore.
Yeah. Carol won’t do anything that she thinks is cruel; my money is on passive aggressive daggers and twisted thinking, like the bit about dying for Joyce. It may be so circumspect that it’s hard for Joyce to explain exactly why it tears her up inside. It’s a really great thing that Becky is there to support her, and hey, maybe even her Dad, too!
Hm, yeah, I did work with one fundie who was all about love and kindness, and yet, she said that if the kid is going to Hell, they should be warned, even though the truth hurts.
We had some surprisingly civil debates about it, inside a religious standpoint. An education for both of us, I’m sure!
I’m not so vain to think that I convinced her; she had a long way to go (for example, she knew self-proclaimed ex-gays in fundie opposite-sex marriages, so she thought that conversion camps worked, omz.) But it would be nice to think that I was one of the many people on her path towards the loving-kindness that she values, vs. her extremely harmful talking points.
In Carol’s defense, there is no way she could have known that saying “I would die for [my child]” would be a trigger to Joyce -I always figured that she’d meant that only in a protective-parental manner, not as any sort of threat -“you are my child, and I want to protect you and keep you safe and happy at all costs” -and, well, I kinda want to believe that MORE now -that she’s going to take the same attitude Hank is -not liking, but tolerating, and eventually (hopefully) moving to acceptance.
+5 Faith in her Church for Joyce 🙂
And +2 Days of freeloading for Becky! Hopefully it’ll be this weekend when Mary pulls the investigation on her bunking in Billie’s room.
“Well, we’re not seeing any evidence of a… what did you say? A ‘perverted vagrant’? Yeah, we can’t find any proof that one of those is living in the dorms. And everybody else in the hall is denying any knowledge of an illegal boarder, too.
However, we HAVE received complaints that you’ve been making transphobic remarks towards one of the residents who DOES live here…”
Methinks Dad is going to be much more understanding then Mom. (Going by what she said when Joyce talked to her on the phone… and how she echoed ToeDad’s words)
I know tactlessness is a theme of the story and everything but like, Joyce c’mon, this is literally a “treat him how you would want to be treated” moment. You can go a bit slower. It’s the best way to avoid that “breaking point” the whole comment section is predicting.
Plus Becky’s got her own pace with giving out information. Play the anchor. Being the link between him and these new ideas means understanding him too.
My advice to a pre-written fictional character.
It can also (let me be clear that this is because of the shitty state of our society, not for any intrinsic reason) break things that could be fixed. My sister was homeless until recently after coming out as trans.
Since then, I have gotten my parents (uh, just dad really) following trans healthcare law. On the (I hate the word “correct” when I’m writing like this, but) generally correct side.
My sister has since created a new life for herself and is happy, but there is still no contact between her and my parents. That relationship being an unnecessary loss.
and I certainly blame myself for playing a shitty intermediary role.
It’s like stretching clay. Pull slowly and it stays together, becoming longer. Pull to violently and it will tear and you have two smaller lumps.
But also:
1: you may not value the lost relationship
2: It may work out anyway because all people involved were able to quickly reach the same understanding.
3: I could be not as smart as I think I am, and my personal experience does not define the universe.
Aw. I wasn’t there, and yet, I’m certain it wasn’t your fault! Even if you’d been a perfect middle-child mediator, which is an impossible task, some parents just make themselves of more brittle clay than others do. (Some parents are silly-putty and can do it with hardly any help at all. I wish you and your sister had been luckier in that regard, and I wish I hadn’t beaten this metaphor to death.)
Also, your parents surely said things to her, outside of your info or presence, to cause a break in that connection.
It’s comforting, in a way, to think that you have real control over screwing up other peoples’ relationships. But, you can’t, and it’s on the people in that relationship, not on you.
Rereading your post: Did your parents refuse to take her in when she was homeless? Yikes. Maybe your sister regarded that lost contact as not only necessary, but also desirable. I don’t think I’d want to talk to parents who considered kicking me to the curb, even if I had a really nice sibling named Rowan by my side at the time. It would just hurt too much. I’d keep Rowan, and not talk to the kicker-outers, and nothing that Rowan had said or not said would change my mind about it.
It’s hard to see a relationship split between people about whom you care deeply. You said you blamed yourself for having a part in their broken relationship, but my friend, it wasn’t your fault at all.
Even super-awesome mediation skills can’t fix everything. If your parents were willing to contribute to your sister’s homelessness, then their current arrangement could well be the best result that was possible for everyone (unless, of course your parents do a 180 and become trans-supportive, somehow?? which, again, is entirely up to them, and not on you).
Nah, just say “Dina. She likes dinosaurs” or something and let Becky do what she will. I might be drawing too much from personal experience, having been in Joyce’s position twice and having it go far better myself playing the, I guess not passive role, but the , uh, grounding(?) role.
It might also have gone better because I’d gotten further in developmental psychology studies, or maybe I chose that role because of that. Maybe it went better because of the other people in question (though I highly doubt that, honestly) I don’t know, do what works best for the given situation.
I’m probably just reading too many parallels to my own life.
I’m probably just wrong, too, idk.
Ah, I understand you better now. Looks like, in this particular instance, either choice would’ve worked fine.
From a reading standpoint, I wanted to know how Hank would act when presented with non-straight behaviour — internal discomfort, but not being a jerk about it — which we couldn’t have seen without Joyce happily blurting out her excitement for the Beckasaur.
If Joyce actively downplayed their relationship, I think Becky would be hurt.
Not to mention that Becky would probably bring it up on her own (if Hank didn’t ask her), which could make Joyce’s dodge suspicious. Given her prior concerns about the visit, her history of discomfort with deception, and Hank’s probably-more-positive-than-she-expected reaction, it’s not all that surprising that Joyce decided honesty was the best policy.
Yeah, ok I get that. I didn’t really mean to downplay it, more to introduce Dina as a person on her own rather than solely in relation to Becky, but either way I see what you’re saying.
That’s silly. Gay people gonna gay. If she’s gay and doesn’t have a girlfriend that just means she’s probably just makin’ out with chicks willie nilly vanilli live in concert this summer!
All life is progress. Everything that happens today affects you, and as a result the “YOU” that you are when you go to bed tonight is not the exact same “YOU” that went to bed last night (there’s probably a better way to say this but dambed if I can put the words together).
So there may still be hope for Hank and the rest of the Browns yet!!!
Also, I like the acknowledgement that Becky’s not just swanning off and leaving Dina behind without a word. I didn’t think she would anyway, but just good to have a concrete thing to point at after yesterday.
It just wouldn’t have been in character for her to not say goodbye all proper like. She loves her dinosaur girl and has been doing a lot to make sure she doesn’t feel ancillary or boring in their relationship.
So Joyce’s father isn’t a monster. He’s seriously misguided in his beliefs, but I think he is a decent human being at heart. He was the one who came around when Joyce stood up for Dorothy. I’ve suspected that there’s a significance to the fact that he’s the parent who shares Joyce’s giant blue eyes.
Joyce’s mother, on the other hand, might not respond too well to having Becky in her home. After Joyce’s defense of Dorothy, her father responded with respect and affection, and embraced his daughter. Her mother just stood there looking grumpy.
Right now, things are going reasonably smoothly. I suspect this is the calm before the storm.
Those that accuse him of mommy issues aren’t entirely wrong, and with Joyce being modeled after the Willis of the past, I think it’s a safe bet that Carol is going to be horrible.
Aw, he’s trying. And not in a passive aggressive “love the sinner, hate the sin” way, but he actually seems to be examining his beliefs and seems to be open to the idea that his earlier way of thinking could be wrong. It’s not perfect, and I’m sure he’ll slip up and say something insensitive at some point, but I’m going to take this as a good sign.
I suppose it’s harder to hold onto bigotry when someone you care about turns out to be one of the “others” you oppose.
That’s usually how it works. It’s a lot easier to hate inhuman monsters you’ll never meet than it is to hate Dave at the coffee shop and his husband Frank the barber. Human faces to the terrible other can often poison bigotry where it breeds for those willing to do the work.
And it seems Hank is at least willing to try. He’ll probably fuck it up along the way in terrible terrible ways, but he’s giving it a college try.
He’s only human, after all. Failure paves the way to success.
Here’s hoping he finishes the road, and doesn’t smash anything important under one of those failures.
Familiarity breeds… well, a variety of things, actually. There’s a Heinlein story, I think, where members of a (fictional) persecuted minority talk about “I’m not worried about my neighbors, and you probably don’t have to worry about your neighbors, but I’m worried about your neighbors…”
Hank is going through a process. He will almost certainly backslide during it. Even without that, he is highly likely to say something that we might feel is terrible out of sheer ignorance. That ignorance does not excuse the mistakes one may make while fumbling forward toward what I like to think of as enlightenment, but lack of malicious intent usually at least means one is educable. Hank has indicated progress on one of the most important steps toward learning: he realizes that he doesn’t already know everything.
Phew, at least Joyce and Becky kinda have someone in their corner. Like everyone else, I’m bracing for Mom, though. And anyone else from home they might run into over the weekend.
Soft around the middle, probably slightly loose skin but for the most part firm. Her chin looks like it could smash granite though so that’s probably mostly bone. She’s got a decent figure for a lady her age and a Sizeable bust. All in all she probably feels fine.
I like how Joyce’s Father is reacting, after being set in his ways for so long, it sets a nice tone that maybe he’s matured enough to realize that his daughter can teach him now. I can only hope that David’s journey included family that was as understanding and open enough to learn to accept that there are other beliefs than their own that are just as valid and deserve to be respected instead of reviled as “Evil.” You don’t have to live as others do to respect their lifestyle makes them happy, and respect that instead of merely “tolerate” them. The word “Tolerance” can be quite offensive when applied to others when used in that way.
He is indeed trying. Becky is not going to make that easy. Which can be both good and bad. Good because it presses him to think on it rather than try to pretend it doesn’t exist, bad because, well, pushing too hard can cause a push back. With Joyce caught in the middle.
Becky is not going to take things slow, or otherwise restrain her native exuberance for the sake of coddling bigotry, but in the long run I think that actually will make the whole process easier. Let him see that her feelings come from a place of love and joy, that this relationship is as healthy for both Becky and Dina as the best marriage anyone could hope for (conveniently, Joyce was arguing over scripture relevant to that point not two hours ago, it’s likely still fresh in her mind), and most of all that the whole situation is a matter of honesty and integrity rather than corruption or deceit. Yank off the bandaid.
I also really want to applaud Joyce here. She’s had a hard time fully accepting Becky being with Dina, but that giant happy smile at the end seeing them say their goodbyes shows just how far she’s come and how completely she accepts them and Becky.
That’s a “Yay, my dad’s a much better person than I expected him to be, maybe this visit won’t be as painful as expected, my best friend is happy, everything’s coming up Joyce” grin
… Man, that was… Genuinely touching for a moment there. I thought Joyce was going to tear up and hug her Dad. Y’know, maybe this ain’t gonna be so bad, after all…
Huh, that was actually surprisingly nice and tolerant of Joyce’s fundie father… Willis… you’re not lulling us into a false sense of security just to make this blow up even bigger later on are you? *suspicious stare*
So you’re saying Becky did NOT approach Hank with the malicious intent to ruin Joyce’s life, AND she’s saying goodbye to Dina before leaving??
Why, it’s almost as if a lot of commenters two days ago were completely full of shit!
No, that’s unpossible. Clearly it was them doing the sober analysis of Becky’s true character and us uppity queerfolk with our high-falutin’ emotions who were too wrapped up in our ironclad love for the character to see the truth.
Oh please, I am gay and was genuinely worried Becky was gonna run off without saying goodbye to Dina. Willis made her charachter very impulsive, and she was visually upset by Joyce and Dorothy having pretended to be wives.. Plus Dina was lookin around with Walky and Dorothy seemingly unsure where Becky went. It’s not an unreasonable fear. I’m glad she is saying goodbye.
Hank is his daughter’s father. I love how much you can see their similarities in this strip, and I don’t only mean the eyes. The fourth panel…. awwwwwwww.
It’s also a very reasonable attitude. “I don’t need to understand it in order to act like a decent human being. It is enough for me that YOU do.” What did Dorothy say about believing in people of her choosing?
I really don’t like how criticizing Becky makes you a homophobe in the comments. People have different experiences, and comparing them to Becky’s will garner different results and reactions. Most of the gay/trans people I know (I hesitate to use the q word because a good lot of the lgbt community sees it as a slur) avoid situations like this. Becky charges into them headlong. While It worked out this time for her (which I’m happy about!) there have been times where her brashness has worked against her. And I don’t think I’m a bigot or full of it when I point that out, or express frustration with her bold attitude. I don’t like brash characters in general, but apparently criticizing this is one makes you a shitlord
That’s the thing. any criticism is labeled as “blaming a lesbian for existing”. Literally one of the arguments i posed two days ago was “this situation puts BECKY at risk, and is probably a bad idea.” I’m not saying it’s her fault that she experiences homophobia. But charging into a potentially homophobic situation, banking on Hank’s good faith (which paid off) isn’t the best idea.
You have the right to exist anywhere regardless of who you are. But knowingly going into situations where bigots can harm you is a crap idea. For example, when her dad came to the school, she HID. Because he could do serious emotional harm (and later, he revealed he was willing to do physical harm). Avoiding him, rather than confronting him was the smarter move. When he eventually caught her, he forced her into his car and tried to fucking kidnap her, with her only escaping by the efforts of others. None of that was her fault.
So, when this situation arises, albeit a much less dramatic one than the last, I think avoiding Joyce’s dad is the smarter option. But she doesn’t, and I disagree with that choice.
I’m sure Becky, as a character, craves and needs this emotional support, and I’m happy her gamble is paying off. But I don’t think it’s fucked up for me to say she shouldn’t have taken that chance.
It shouldn’t BE a chance, I realize this. But it was, and she took it, and I didn’t agree with it. I don’t think that makes me a villain.
But…that’s what you’re doing right now. You may be couching it in concern for her wellbeing, but you’re still putting the onus on Becky to refrain from existing near a potential homophobe rather than the homophobe not being homophobic. It’s a very important distinction, you see.
I see what you’re saying. But the thing is that I’m looking at these figures as characters, not people. I don’t criticize the homophobes in this story because they’re meant to be the antagonists. The bad guys. I don’t need to criticize their moral behaviors or motivations because they’re much more flat in this comic (that being, most of them are blinded by their religion to take their children’s feelings into account and make correct ethical choices.) We know the score, they’re bad for reasons x y and z, and the chances of them changing over the course of the comic isn’t very high (at least, I don’t think so. Hank seems to be proving me wrong but time will tell).
Becky is a character we’re meant to be rooting for, and is one I feel very mixed on. In half of her appearances she makes me laugh the most, and her understanding of Dina makes me like her more. Other times, I feel frustrated with her because I feel her choices put herself or others in harms way, or sometimes she may just irk me. Regardless, I criticize her more because she’s a more sympathetic character, so seeing her flaws shine through can be frustrating.
These are characters. No gay people I know would act this way around potential threats, especially when others are at risk as well, because it’s a terrible idea. If Hank were more of a jerk, he could make efforts to get Becky kicked out of the dorm she’s living in. But she didn’t think of this, so I get frustrated, because she’s a character I want to root for.
When a villain does a bad thing, it’s expected. Frustrating, but expected. When a main character makes a mistake that can harm the group, it cuts deeper. So it’s more worth criticizing. There have been a million comments saying “oh good job Hank for not being a dick” or “don’t be homophobic like we expect you to Hank” but they ultimately mean nothing because that’s where all of our minds are at.
I think the bottom line is that I’m looking at this from a narrative-driven perspective, whereas others are seeing a lot of themselves in Becky, so it looks like my criticism reflects the plight of real people. I think this difference in viewing the comic is ultimately what creates the disconnect, and makes people angry at each other in the comments. At least, that’s my theory. Maybe I’m just totally out of touch and wrong, and if that’s the case I’m sorry. I’m not infallible.
I wanted to cite that I was on Carla’s side in the last little arc, since the situations are somewhat similar but a bit different at the same time, but then, those comments got deleted. So who knows, maybe there was legitimate bile in there and my comments look similar to their’s. I hope that’s not the case.
Dude, if a teenager making life choices that you “disagree” with is all it takes for you to stop being on her side, perhaps consider that you weren’t really on her side to begin with.
Becky is possibly older than I at this point in the comic, and I never said I wasn’t on her side, just that I disagreed with an action she performed. When did I ever even say I would take Hank’s side if things went wrong?
Regardless, it’s pretty clear that it’s really not worth arguing about. You’re not going to change your mind, and neither am I. So, have a good night I guess?
I guess I feel like Becky, just by existing, is at risk. so when she takes risks, she does them because there’s no possible way she could be any more at risk. she takes calculated risks based off her intuition, I feel like – and they pay off.
example: with her dad. Her dad brought a gun to school. She took the risk of being alone with him to protect countless other people, and it paid off because the people behind her were in a good place to get help and come after her to rescue her. A lot of those were variables she couldn’t control, but she made the best decision with the information she had.
example: right now, with Mr. Brown. Going out and telling a cute story about Joyce is actually a really good way to forcibly remind him that, hey, she’s still the kid she remembered, as well as being a good icebreaker. Doing it at campus is a safe zone where she can get away if she still needs to, and where she has friends (and a girlfriend!) who can comfort her afterwards if she needs comforting. She’s being human, and she’s being human in a way that is instantly relatable.
example: after being kicked out of college for being a lesbian she goes to Joyce. Joyce is literally her best friend, and she goes to a secular college. Like, even if Joyce did reject her, there would probably still be resources at this campus? And Joyce had spent the last month dating a gay man that she knew was gay. Joyce was literally the best of all possible options, I think, because if Becky’s family is anything like her dad then that’s not an option.
If you don’t view the characters as people and if you don’t criticize villains, but you do criticize “good characters” i.e. more marginalized group members for “messing up” according to your standards, how do you think that comes off externally to individuals who share personal traits and life experiences with the characters?
Do you think they understand that you are doing an odd disconnected, emotionless literary analysis? Or would it just come off as victim-blaming tripe by someone who never calls out characters of power who act wrongly?
Yes, and that’s the shitty thing about this world. You have to be aware of the fact that threats exist all around you. They shouldn’t but they do and a person, any person, is well advised to be cautious and not provoke confrontations.
In a perfect world, no-one would need to automatically think this and have these considerations but this isn’t a perfect world.
Well, “well advised to be cautious and not prove confrontations” perhaps so, but thank God that some people aren’t well advised AND some go ahead anyway, (for reasons like “I’ve standsd all I can stands and I can’t stands no more”). The world is a better place for them and would be a poorer place without them. (Notwithstanding BenRG that I almost always agree with you and have learned from you.)
True. But when we say an individual or a character should be blamed for said negative reality when they fail to show it they’re fear, that becomes victim-blaming in the same way as when we shift from going “rape culture is real, sadly, the incidences of rape are very high” to “therefore what were you thinking going out at night/wearing that dress/getting drunk”.
Society being very transphobic does not mean it is my fault when I go out looking like myself or being affectionate with loved ones in public or when I try and work in my job without hating myself.
Society and people being homophobic does not mean it is Becky’s fault that Toedad went happy fun gun times on her or if Hank or Carol had a big freak out about her.
When we demand those impacted by our societal inequality be the ones to prevent their own victimizations, we are victim-blaming and it isn’t okay.
We can worry about them. We can say that we would not be able to take that risk like them. But when we say that they are being an “idiot” or “how could they not know better” a line has been crossed.
Yes.
This took me a bit to understand, so I think I understand why some folks dont, even here, but once I did get it, it became so obvious to me that I’m impatient for others to grok it, too. There’s a time and place and mode for discussing strategy and tactics, but it’s not when you can’t focus the structure of the situation or the goal; it’s NOT after saying “of course homo, trans, etc. Phobia is bad, BUT it’s important not to be, X,Y,Z” because that just distracts from the core fact that people are still treated Wrong BECAUSE they exist. There IS NO “BUT” after eliminate homophobia, eliminate transphobia, eliminate all the phobias. That stands by itself at the core of things. Then and only then we can talk about how much progress there’s been and not been and opportunities and dangers and tactics and all of that. And a lot of nice, decent people are going to be made uncomfortable before we Reach the Promised Land.
(End rant; post comment; sign off)
Whoops, I might have tapped that yesterday (when I said it would’ve been wiser if Joyce and Becky had informed her folks in a planned-out way). Was my foot all up in my mouth? I apologize for any distress I caused.
Dude- Hank could have been terrible, but he was never going to be Toedad level of awful. So it was a more reasonable gamble then her walking up to bio dad. For one thing he doesn’t have a gun on him. He didn’t come and yank Joyce out of college immediately due to ‘demonic influences’ (either she being them or subject to them). It was a gamble sure. For one thing. Even if it wasn’t a gamble on her life- it was a gamble on further rejection and harsh, awful words from someone she probably called ‘Uncle Hank’ as a kid and would hurt like hell if it happened. But when you’re LGBT+ almost /everything/ you do when out of the closet (or even not at points) can be a gamble. That doesn’t mean you can always stop living or should stop trying. Becky talking to Hank is inevitable. It might have been ripping the bandaid.
People also react badly because yes, it is blaming the victim like it or not. Random example: some people could say it is ‘unwise’ for instance to be ‘out’ in any way while living in a small bible belt town for instance. For me though, even while deep in the UK and in the closet- it takes guts- guts I don’t personally have. And even if it ends badly for them, it still took guts- and it wasn’t their fault if anything happens, and never will be. They were brave. And it’s sad that bravery is required.
See, escalated it to the point where it looks like I said that gay people should stay in the closet out of fear, which is not what I said at all. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying a character should pick their battles, since that’s what every person in the lgbt community does.
I think that talking to Hank now, especially like a week after the Toedad incident, is unreasonable and weirdly optimistic given what had just happened. Regardless of the outcome, it wouldn’t be Becky’s fault since Joyce’s dad would obviously be the aggressor. But homophobes and zealots is probably the best call, in most cases. I don’t think it’s wrong to languish over a character making a choice that you wouldn’t have made in the same scenario. Especially since Becky is a character, not a person.
Maybe having just become practically an orphan and him being almost like her second dad has something to do with it, more than “unreasonable optimism”…
like i said, Hank could easily put in the effort to add “homeless” to that list. so confronting him, i think, is weirdly optimistic, giving that her first dad wasn’t a great help
By your logic Becky should have just entirely cut ties with everyone she knew and vanished into homelessness. Because coming to Joyce was a HELL of a risk dude.
She was prepared to do that. Her Plan A for escaping from Toedad the second time before seeing Amazi-girl was to wait for an opening where no one else would be at risk and then go off under a bridge somewhere and never contact anyone she cared about again so they wouldn’t be put at risk.
Yeah, that just makes me more frustrated with their rationale. Like in order for queer people to NOT put people close to them at risk from being tangentially affected by bigotry directed at them they’d basically just have to quietly disappear off the face of the earth.
Very probably; furthermore, the timing of Becky’s actions makes me think that, on a certain level, she needed to be part of a family and enjoy that emotional intimacy again. That’s why she chose that moment – to offer some sisterly teasing directed at Joyce.
I’ll say something else: I find it highly unlikely that Becky is capable of seeing Hank Brown as a potential risk. Personally, if I had a criticism of what she did in that strip, it would be that it might have been better if they’d arranged for Joyce to sound out her father first, if only to sweep away the last of any uncertainty. Still, as I have posted before: Eighteen-year-olds don’t think like that.
Hell, after her own father, I’m astounded that Becky is capable of seeing Mr. Brown as anything other than an existential threat. If I read yesterday’s strip right, she was terrified of rejection in that first panel and even before that she hid until she saw that at least his first interaction with Joyce seemed friendly and safe.
Either way, I’m out. Maybe I’m out of touch and wrong! And I’m sorry if I offended anyone. I usually try to avoid internet fights but this one really sucked me in and got to me. Good night everyone.
“I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying a character should pick their battles, since that’s what every person in the lgbt community does.”
There’s not… up until the point you said “should”.
Do queer people pick their battles? All the time. Are things scary and gross and awful? Indubitably. Do queer people sometimes choose to swallow their pride and dignity and ride something out because it feels too unsafe for them to stand up for themselves? Totes.
Do we have to make non-ideal choices simply to survive? Yeppers. And no one should blame someone having to do that, because you gotta do what you gotta do to survive and the person is probably already beating themselves up enough. Bob knows I was when I recloseted myself to avoid homelessness.
But when we make that a “should”, when we say that that is what we expect from queer individuals. That a queer individual should “know better” than to take risks. That they are doing something “wrong” by not hiding and remaining fearful?
That is not okay. That is saying to every person who’s been in that space, oh hey, not only are you making hard choices you find unbearable and dehumanizing for your survival, but you should be doing that. That is right. That is proper. And you really are the only one to blame when it all falls apart on you.
It’s reinforcing those awful negative realities by punishing anyone who takes the risks to improve things. And believe me, Becky has taken said risks in universe. She is homeless. Familyless. Communityless.
And that is so important that she did so, even though it has cost her. Asking her to hide that away now is to do a disservice to that risk and that cost. And I can confirm that for those who’ve made a similar choice, having people say, that’s stupid, that’s wrong, doesn’t really feel good, but it does feel familiar.
That makes sense that Russ’s words could land as “it’s right and proper to hide”. Until you pointed out this interpretation, I thought Russ meant that hiding might be adaptive to the sucky environment, perhaps self-protective or clever/tricksy or something, and that he wanted Becky to do what she could to increase her safety amid the potential bigots (since she can’t make them stop being bigots). That, in his own risk/benefit analysis, he’d have put even more weight on safety than Becky tends to. (Or not, Russ left and I’m not in Russ’s head.) I think/hope Russ didn’t intend to communicate that it’s right/proper that Becky or others should ever have to weigh family vs safety, or make painful choices about it, or that they should be blamed when things go wrong, etc, as that would indeed be super gross.
Anyway. I’m very glad you explained how that kind of thing sounds to a person who is going through it or has survived it! Yikes. I do not want to imply things like that ever.
Is there a better way to say that one safety strategy is a sadly wise choice, compared to another? (I ask because I’m likely to work with marginalized people in crisis someday, and I’d prefer to avoid the taste of my foot when it can hurt them the most!) I definitely don’t want to victim-blame, but saying it’s all up to some bigot would disempower and harm my future-clients. What’s a more empowering approach, so that my future-clients can make clever plans within their own awful situations?
Oops, I hadnt refreshed to see that this thread continues below. My interpretation of Russ’s words is moot, but my question stands for how to keep my foot out of my mouth regarding strategy-talk.
Of course I would never say should in the tense “gay people should hide because it’s their place”, but rather, “gay people should pick their battles, because sometimes they get attacked and murdered and reducing that risk is a good thing”. Unfortunately I couldn’t think of a better word than “should”. Despite should sounding like a dirty word, it’s pretty noncommittal compared to other turns of phrase, like “have to” and “all lgbt people do x” because those are even more absolute, and I can’t speak for everyone and their experiences. Should was a useful word since it applies a general, but soft rule.
I do understand that it can be taken the wrong way though, and I want to make it clear that that wasn’t what I was going for.
Not to say that I’m applying rules or anything like that. I say soft rule as a synonym for guideline or general wisdom: avoid bigots. Thought I’d clarify that as well in case that got misconstrued as well
@ Russ: the problem is that it isn’t possible. Gay people can’t just go to a safe bigot-less paradise and live there happily. That’s not an option, there’s no place like that.
Avoiding or confronting a particular bigot is a tense choice EVERY TIME, and picking avoidance every time IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY EITHER. I mean, for someone in specific circumstances it might be the best option, but as a general guideline it ALSO SUCKS.
Gay people goals and priorities include:
– physical safety and physical comfort;
– contact with loved ones;
– fitting in with a community;
– self-respect;
– self-confidence;
– freedom to express affection in public;
– freedom to express their opinions;
etc etc etc
Some of those goals require avoiding bigots. Some of those goals require confronting bigots. Every person puts together those priorities for themselves, and every person makes those intensely personal decisions in each case for themselves.
Had Becky explicitly stated her goals and priorities here for the audience, yes, this would have been a discussion of tactics in achieving them.
But she hasn’t, and in the absence of definite knowledge the reasonable assumption is that she knows what she’s doing (better than us, since she’s the one who’s known these people from early childhood). And with that assumption, any criticism of her actions is a criticism of her priorities.
And that’s where the suck kicks in. Because you are not Becky, you are not in her situation. You have NO RIGHT to make the call there. Even if you were in a situation similar to hers, it’s still not the exact same one. She has a right to her own decisions and priorities, and she has a right to want to nuke closets and rip off bandaids over treading softly and holding on to a semblance of housing above all.
This is not a discussion of tactics. This is a discussion of goals. Important distinction.
Becky is reckless, probably foolishly so. These are traits which, in a male character, are usually admired. In English cultural terms, she’d be a bit of a lad. Yet, here there are a trickle of commenters saying, “oh, Becky doesn’t want to do that.Oh, risky.” Well, duh. I’ve known any number of “lads” – hell, I’ve been there myself – who’ve done absolutely stupendously idiotic things, yet they’re admired for it. IRL terms, there are very good reasons why (male) motorcyclists can’t get insurance when they’re under 25. Blokes under 25 seem to have absolutely no idea of danger or fear, and they’re lauded when they commit such acts. Yes, I realise that such acts are guarded within strict cultural barriers, but these barriers have proven to be more and useless.
But when a woman steps that line, blimey o’reilly. You’d’ve thought the earth was split asunder.
Even in DOA terms, Joe is equally as reckless imo, yet he does not attract nearly same amount of approbation for the sheer volume of girls he’s (apparently) shagging. Yes, he does do protection but he also drinks. Remembering to use protection when you’re both drunk?
It is well known that Willis likes to push the envelope on these things, so he’s created a female lesbian character who is reckless, who drives the plot forward. Nanny-tut her all you want, but I think she’s wonderful.
But… her existing near people, her refusing to hide something that she feels is a hugely important part of herself IS what provokes them. She shouldn’t have to hide to be safe. What she’s doing is brave -foolish, maybe, but brave, because she KNOWS just how much risk she’s putting herself in -having already been directly confronted with -and having had her life uprooted because of -some incredibly terrible things.
I’ll admit, I’m biased here -partly because I do the something similar. I’ve been raped. I’ve been sexually assaulted. I’ve been harassed -and I’m counting those things separately because they’ve HAPPENED separately. I am aware that, “as a woman”, going places on my own and/or after dark isn’t necessarily wise -and there are places I WILL NOT go in those conditions because it is simply too dangerous. But I refuse to miss out on living my life simply because there are people who want to hurt me for who I am, for what I appear to be, for what that means to them. I get a huge -and necessary -mental and emotional boost from, say, going dancing, or walking around on my own and feeling unafraid and independent, or even just sitting under a tree and watching the moon -and the risk of NOT getting those boosts is far more dangerous and terrifying than the threat of getting attacked (again). I’m sick of hiding and being afraid -and the more I make a point of doing neither, the more people are forced to think about how sad it is that so many people have to choose which way they’re going to risk their own well-being.
i dont think becky shouldve avoided talking to hank at all. i just thought joyce shouldve been allowed to talk to him and settle a little bit first. she was appearently planning to follow so joyce wouldve asked her dad if it was okay and good stuff wouldve happened. i dont think theres anything wrong with becky hoping that hank would be okay with her following and her being a lesbian and all that stuff. thats good. at the moment though, i just wanted joyce to be able to talk to her dad and feel comfortable with him, because of all the tings that have happened and she was probably doubting him, alone before they wouldnt get to be alone anymore. yes, i certainly can see that it turned out well, and i wasnt opposed to the idea of it turning out well. as i said, at the moment i just wanted them to get to talk alone a bit. but i was still labeled a victim blamer and probably a homophobe too
I did NOT label you a homophobe, I was referring to Hank’s possible homophobia as being why it was apparently so awful that Becky revealed herself to him. For somebody who kept griping at me about putting words in your mouth, you’re doing a hell of a job putting words in mine.
I obviously misunderstood why you thought it was so awful that Becky revealed herself, but I didn’t think you were homophobe. I just thought you were like other commenters who thought Becky should have stayed hidden because she would have made Joyce’s dad uncomfortable. If I apologize for misunderstanding why you were upset, will you stop thinking I was calling you a homophobe?
There’s a lot here to unpack, but I’d like to address one thing that I’ve seen come up a lot of late. And that is really hypersensitive whiny complaints about how everyone views you as a homophobe if you dare say anything about Saint Becky.
And since this argument has been made, verbatim, a lot, I feel it is important to address the central fear in it.
So first, let me assure you that you are not a villain. You are not some evil scary homophobe who actively hates gay people and wants their lives to be worse. Hell, you may even be queer yourself or intend yourself to be an awesome ally. And no one is viewing you as a big scary not-good person who is actively trying to hurt anyone.
We do not think you are trying to do something wrong.
So with that said, let’s address a few things.
First up, if you ever catch yourself making an argument that you can’t say anything about minority group member X without it being taken as being Y-ist, then you are probably being Y-ist.
Sorry, but that’s going to be true, 100% of the time. There’s no real situation where you can’t make a well-reasoned, cogent, and non-informed-by-bigotry observation about someone who is a minority group member, so if you feel you can’t say “anything” without getting mobbed about it, then what you are saying is probably messed up in ways you’re not actively aware of.
And that’s the key part:
“not actively aware of”.
So let’s take institutional homophobia. Our society is set up in ways that are inherently unequal to queer individuals versus straight individuals. And this defines the normal that all of us float inside of. It is perfectly normal to view a queer couple as less faithful or less worthy of praise or attention as a straight couple. To view a queer display of affection more negatively than one which is more normative. To hold queer individuals to higher standards of behavior and expectations. To view queer accomplishments more negatively. And to demand that queer individuals be hyper-aware and be responsible for the negative actions or opinions of the dominant group.
This is normal. This is what we’ve always known. This is something we perpetuate every day without thinking about it, even if we are queer ourselves.
This is hard to get rid of.
Really hard, because to go against it is to deliberately go against what is “normal”, what feels “natural” and make a lot of effort that might not always work.
So does the flood of anti-Becky backlash fit under this category?
Yes.
We can even measure it in the way that relatively neutral actions by Becky are perceived versus genuinely messed up actions by other characters. We can see it in the complaints that are quickly disproven by the narrative. We can see it in how quickly commenters forget and overlook her positive traits. We can see it in the flood of victim-blaming that ensues when Becky is anywhere in the proximity of a homophobe (and sorry, but yes, blaming Becky for another person’s potential homophobia is just as much victim-blaming as arguing that Carla shouldn’t have been antagonizing Mary if she didn’t want to experience that level of transphobia or arguing that a sexual assault victim shouldn’t have been wearing that outfit when going out last night. Any time you blame a marginalized person for how someone else may take it, you are minimizing the wrong-doing of the actual transgressor and placing an unreasonable expectation on the victim of the transgression and that is like fire on the skin for those who’ve been similarly victimized).
We can show that this is a thing that exists and exists in our comment thread.
And those who are complicit in that are not bad people. They are not awful homophobes. They are not doing anything actively wrong.
But together, they add up to that violent reminder of institutional oppression. Together they send a message to people who’ve been through those life experiences that they did something wrong when it all went bad. That the people around them would agree with those who blamed them when stuff went wrong. That they did and are something wrong they need to make up for.
That thread a couple of days ago? That made me legitimately scared in a way I haven’t been in a while even though I knew I was safely at home and I was having loved ones come over this weekend to look forward to. Because it was evocative of a time that was really awful for me.
And I guarantee no one who contributed to that meant for that sort of thing to happen and I don’t feel like any one member should feel responsible for something that is at the end of the day “my shit”. But it is worth noting that these little inequalities can build to much longer communications of “this is not safe”, “you are not valued” than any one person means.
It’s part of our normal and it shouldn’t be.
So for all those scared that you can’t say “anything”, geeze, well? Maybe you should take an extra second and sit with things because that unsettled feeling is saying something very important about something that is so subtle and so very very normal.
People like Becky face discrimination and homophobia all the time. If we want to discuss their actions we have to realize that the homophobia they face is part of the package. Not because it should be but because it is.
Like I said earlier, at this point I’m trying to distance myself from this thread because, as easy as it is to get sucked into this argument for me, it’s ultimately not worth the effort for what anyone gets out of it. However, I read all of your replies and I feel that not answering would make it as if I’m ignoring what you have to say.
A lot of the people who are against what I’m saying scale up the stakes to make my stance look worse. My entire platform is: I don’t think Becky should have gone in there. In my opinion, Becky made a poor choice.
At this point, people like to upscale, and say that my words reflect an underlying belief that Becky (or even lgbt people as a whole) should keep their heads down in most, if not all situations. That couldn’t be further from the truth.
If not that, then it’s stated that my words, in combination with everyone else’s criticism, accumulate as another example of how so many people being complicate in Becky’s suffering serves as a model for the quiet, accepting bigotry that society often displays towards gay people when they want to remain “neutral”. And, this may be true, I can’t deny that. But I don’t think pointing towards a mass of arguments and saying that its problematic as a whole should be a tool used to silence those who have legitimate things to say. I believe that each person’s ideas on the matter should be viewed individually, rather than lumped together and judged in a mass of mutual assumptions.
I don’t need to be told that I’m not a homophobe, or not a bad person. As a whole, everyone is somewhat both of those things, and it takes effort and awareness to ensure that you don’t fall into the traps society has ingrained in you. Unfortunately, it’s come to the point that someone making a legitimate claim in a grey area such as this, is assumed to be falling into this trap, without really taking into count what they’re saying. Rather than breaking it down, we deal in absolutes, and make hard rules where there really can’t be any, since every situation is different.
I also really don’t like the comparison between this and sexual assault, especially since a lot of the examples people give is the “what she’s wearing” example. Regardless of the scenario, no one deserves, earns, or walks into being assaulted in that way. Frankly, the circumstances in this case of a possible bigot, and someone being attacked in that manner are not the same, at all. And trying to draw similarities between them in order to prove how one attitude towards victims should be applied towards another, and it just doesn’t line up. The only real equivalent is citing a scenario where someone walks up and greets someone they know is a potential rapist, which is a dumb hypothetical equivalent that is just not worth entertaining.
Fact of the matter is, some characters here are set pieces, some of them have actual depth. Characters like Toedad and Hank really only exist to effect our mains, and provide internal and external conflict for them. Toedad is one-dimensional, and I don’t really feel the need to criticize him and characters who serve simile purposes, because how the characters we care about act is far more interesting. I’ve had complaints and misgivings about every character thus far, but for some reason, Becky is the most polarizing, with some people damning her, some people singing her praises, and a lot of people not being able to separate criticism of someone’s actions, and thinning that the character is a bad person entirely.
This thread’s general consensuses aren’t even to be really trusted. Why is Danny, a victim of abuse, a running joke for being a shitty and bad failure of a person? I don’t know, I think he’s alright, if a bit awkward. It’s basically turned into a vitriol-powered mess, where people who see similarities between characters and people they know (or themselves) and they get defensive.
And, I’m guilty of it too. After all, why wouldn’t you hide from people who you know wouldn’t understand. I do it, and a lot of my friends do it. Some of us don’t even try to question our identities in fear of what we’ll find and have to explain later, because the consequences can be dire. Hell, maybe I’m even just jealous of Becky for being brave in this instance.
I can respect that last part, because I’m jealous of Becky’s bravery too. Just as much as Carla’s not giving a fuck. And I like that. Cause I do it with my students to. I envy that their lives will be less fraught, less difficult, less homophobic and transphobic.
That envy warms me because it’s a sign that the activism right now that I so frequently throw myself into is working. Things are improving. And in the future, it may no longer be a point of concern to see a young queer kid interacting with a middle-aged Christian male.
@Russ. in response to your long post @ 3:55 — a tactical suggestion, really, no snark intended. If you find people like escalating on you you and lumping you with others and not listening to in the spirit it was made, perhaps because you are not clearly and explicitly making clear and explicit that you are talking tactics in an absolutely intolerable situation which is, as a matter of fact, normalized today. And, perhaps be extra careful about discussing tactics which could perhaps seem patronizing to people who live in the acid bath of phobia.
I spent many paragraph qualifying what I meant and under what conditions. If the message still doesn’t come through clearly then it’s really not my fault at that point.
And I’m not assigning fault, it’s a suggestion that I hope might help communication between good and smart folks–because I’ve actually been impressed how the disagreement has been carried on at such a high plane, both intellectually and emotionally. Serious, I couldn’t hold my own here. It might be that the positions are irreconcillable, ultimately. It happens.
(somewhat against my better judgment to be engaging at all, but here goes:)
So here’s a thing I have against Becky:
She flat-out admits to the face of Joyce, her supposed best friend since childhood, that she enjoys provoking her, making her uncomfortable, so as to be entertained by her reactions. And does it. A lot.
One of my brothers does that **** too – “I’m bored, so I’m going to amuse myself by poking someone and watching them jump and make faces” – and I’m reasonably certain that he’s not gay.
I don’t like that sort of behavior in anyone. Not in “friends”, not in family, not in fictional characters. I don’t feel it’s funny, or endearing, or a positive way of signaling that one is included in a social group.
Does that make me unconsciously Y-ist, in a way I’m not actively aware of? Or does it just mean I don’t like people who like to troll their “friends”?
This, like her attacks on/rivalry with Dorothy, seems like a valid thing to dislike about her. OTOH, this is an established behavior since before the start of the strip and Joyce remains her best friend, so it doesn’t really seem like it bothers Joyce as much as your brother doing it bothers you.
I get the impression that Joyce didn’t have a very wide field to choose from, and found Becky’s other qualities (and the need to maintain her own self-image as a good, outgoing, charitable and friendly person) worth enduring the constant… let’s be kind and call it teasing. Heck, she may not even have the context (until now?) to realize that’s unusual, not simply part of “having a friend.”
(I hear so many awful stories RL, some on this very comments section, that end with “… you mean that’s not normal?”)
Perhaps it’s actually part of what she likes about Becky, not some horrible thing she tolerates because she’s nice and can’t find other friends. Or at least it doesn’t really bother her.
It’s certainly a thing that could be really irritating and a serious flaw if applied where it’s not wanted, but I’m not at all sure we’re supposed to think Joyce sees it that way.
Yes, and not to defend it, but I have seen variations on that behavior, some is egregious, some is more benign between sibs/friend, IF dubious nonetheless. I’ve had friends who we’ve razed each other sort of like that, but not to really stick a pin in, but as a game that we both played. I’m done with it, but. And Becky has dimensions: she doesn’t do that with Dina. I’m willing to bet that its going to be effaced in her interactions with Joyce.
The big difference between the two is the fact that it would likely either get no reaction, or genuinely hurt Dina, neither of which is the case with Joyce.
I do think this is going to be the breaking moment in the Brown household. I believe that Becky is going to cause Jocelyn to feel she can come forward with her transgender status/heterosexuality. Then mother will FLIP out and dad will have his own backsliding but ultimately come out in favor of his children which will lead to their divorce. Mr. Brown might choose his wife over Becky but he won’t abandon his daughter.
Albeit, I don’t envy Jocelyn as she tries to explain that she’s a straight woman and not a gay man.
Honestly, I think Becky’s approach of Papa Brown is motivated by idealism. Joyce is doubting her Christian faith because of contradictions she sees but Becky comes at it from an emotional perspectives versus Joyce’s logic. Becky believes people are good, kind-hearted, Christian souls at heart irregardless of Toedad and is hoping that the people she knows and love fundamentally feel the same. Why? Because those were the values she was raised with and she STILL holds them.
I’m so happy Joyce is so relieved (haha Becky haters who hated she dared announce her existence- her popping in was a good thing for Joyce, she now knows at least one of her parents is on their side instead of constantly worrying about it! What a relief for her this weekend! A parent on her side! He even knows he should just keep his mouth shut until he works it out emotionally rather then work on horrible instincts he’s been made to culture for the past 40-50+ years!) and I’m so happy that Becky probably has the potential to get a new dad out of this. Who is trying. He’s not perfect and he’s got a long road ahead, but he is.
While he will mess up most likely: and knows it himself given the last panel: Compared to Toe dad he is a saint. And probably in the ‘list of DOA dads’ has probably entered the top three. For displaying basic human decency and trust in his daughter.
Congratulations Hank- even if the bar set has been kind of low in certain cases.
Also I kind of like how he pretty shows the idea of older people never learning/never should be expected to learn their views on a matter is wrong is pretty much bs.
I’ve never liked the trope of ‘racist grandma’ and the idea other members of the family should just ‘roll with it’ for instance. Nah, if they’re still alive now, and should still be subject to at the very least certain expectations on how to act/informed when they mess up. After all just because you’re older doesn’t mean they know everything- or even anything depending on the subject. Just because they probably ‘don’t have long left’ doesn’t mean they get to spend that remaining time treating people like shit. If they mess up, they should be told. Perhaps in entry level terms or ways at first (or not depending on how godawful they are), but still.
And that’s important to communicate, because too often people fall for the trap that one is “done” learning at a certain age and then, welp, what can you do and that just ends up entrenching a lot of crap as there’s no pressure on bigoted older people to change and grow.
I’m an atheist myself but one without any particular animosity to religion in general. It’s kinda nice seeing having religious convictions be not a bad thing when one of the main characters is an atheist. lot of times writers make it an either/or sort of thing.
my only issue with religion in general is that most of it seems to encourage bigoted behavior towards alot of people. Women, gay/bi/pan/etc. or race.
Whenever I come across someone who is very clearly religious im pretty hesitant towards them. But if they show that they dont follow that kind of thing then i dont mind, its just the initial reaction is “Is this person going to hate me if they knew I was gay?”
Granted im like that with everyone but with religious people moreso
I’ve got to say Mr Willis suprised me big time with this reaction, I didn’t think it would go as well this simply because Hank isn’t just fighting against his religious upbringing but also the older someone gets (especially guys) the more set in their ways they are (generally speaking) so well done to Mr Brown
Mind you this is going so well does it mean its not going to go quite so well with Carol?
From my personal experience, yeah, older men tend to be worse than older women, at least for rigidly and/or aggressively adhering to their intolerances.
Not saying that older men can’t be open-minded people who want to change for the better. (My best friend is 52- old enough to be getting into that stage- but since I’ve known him, he’s shed his racism and taken on a “compassion for all” mentality, for example.) And it’s not to say older women can’t be highly… Problematic.
But as a general rule, I’ve noticed the same thing.
Feel free to argue about, if this is true, why it is so.
Huh, OK, was totally wrong about Hank! That’s a nice surprise. I really wasn’t expecting him to be genuine, so that’s really nice that he’s reflected on both what Joyce said to them before and on how he’s always known Becky and that he’s willing to understand, even if it’s something he wouldn’t originally accept. Plus points for Hank! I’m obviously too used to seeing jerky dads on here hahaa.
Mr. Brown’s doing about as well as I could realistically expect from him. I’m certain he’ll still cause some serious pain this weekend, if unintentionally. Strangely, I find that even harder to bear than Blaine or Toedad’s brands of asshole.
I wonder how Becky’s conversation is going to go.
“Hey, Dina, I’m going off for a week or two to go hang out with the girl I am crushing on despite being romantically linked with you, cementing my ignorance of your feelings , as well as your status as an emotional crutch! ”
Or, like, “Hey Dina, I’m going back to my hometown for a weekend to support the girl I’ve been best friends with since we were in diapers, and maybe to grab important documents like my birth certificate and Social Security card from my old house too, since I need those if I’m going to try and enroll here and take science classes with you.”
Or even, “Hey, I’m doing the thing we have discussed several times the last days because this in no way is a surprising turn of events. Anyway, since that is already settled, would you mind terribly some LICKETY-STYLE MOUTH-SMOOCHES in front of this father figure, that would mean a lot to me. Oh, and also, I love you.”
This. Dina already knows, so it’s probably some flavor of “hey, I’ll miss you over the weekend. I love you oodles and poodles, please call me through Joyce’s phone if something comes up and in the meantime, so many hearts and I can’t wait until I’m back with you. Let’s do something fun and evolutiony on Monday.”
You know, like how it would occur in real life between two people in new love when one is going off on a weekend trip.
Given the rollercoaster ride of recent ups and downs, I’m just enjoying the feel-good vibe on this, and yesterday’s comic.
It shouldn’t need to be said but thank you Hank for being a decent human being
To be honest, I think I’ll be on the fence about Hank until the end of the arc. There are still several ways for him to say or do something abhorrent, some of which have nothing to do with going back on what he says in this page.
…Wow. It’s rare to find someone who is willing to say, “I was wrong and I will strive to do better”. Sad but true.
But when it’s a parent who had long been in quite a strong position of authority? When it’s someone overwhelmingly surrounded by religion to the point where it defines all their actions? For someone like THAT to say it?
I’ve always felt Hank was the more reasonable of the two- not perfect, but more genuinely loving and likely to listen. I have never felt so warm and fuzzy in having my optimism in a fictional character justified.
I am pleased to see Hank trying. Oh how he is trying. I respect him more because of this.
But i feel he got a secret that he never told anyone at all. Why did he pray SO much? it can’t be only about Becky and Joyce. Perhaps there are trouble Brewing in his marriage? or it might be his son did tell his father what he feels and asked him to keep it silent over for mother.
I know i am reaching.. but Hank looks so sad. pretty sad. he is smiling but still it is a sad smile.
It’s certainly possible that there are several factors influencing Hank’s mood right now. Him and Carol could have been arguing about giving Joyce too much freedom. He might be struggling with the fact that one of his best friends aimed a gun in his daughter’s face. I do wonder though, which son are you refering to? Has Willis said anything about Jordan or Jonathan I’m unaware of?
So Hank may be struggle with this as well. but it is just one of the possiblities.
Could be that he feels that Carol is too narrowsighted for his taste perhaps. even years of marriage you still can be shocked of your husband/wife’s views.
Jocelyne is Hank’s other daughter. I was going to say it might be easy to miss if you blaze through things on the initial archive binge, though you kinda linked the strip that revealed her name and everything. Maybe give that sequence a reread?
It’s not as simple as being displeased with being male and wishing to be female. Not being trans myself, I’m not qualified to explain it properly, but there are probably at least half a dozen regular readers who can.
it is a heavy subject indeed. not want to dig deeper in this. since this is about Hank not Jocelynce/Joshua.
Just Wonder why he looks so sad. he looks like a woobie right now. someone give him a hug!
In short, a trans person does not WANT to be the gender they identify as. I’ll use myself as an example- I never wanted to be male. I just wanted to be viewed as who I am- which IS male, but I never got to be raised as such.
I think everyone- even people who are transphobic- can agree that, when it comes to cisgender people, we should judge them on who they are not what genitalia they have. Unfortunately that tends to go out the window with transfolk.
Anyway! Simple way should you find yourself needing to explain it- the gender identity of a person is the gender they are, and (with certain exceptions, such as genderfluidity) is the gender they have always been. Always err on the side of compassion and respect.
How can folks not like Becky? She and Dina together are the sweetest, happiest thing in the while blangit Dumbyverse–they make me smile, blessings on the God of Dumbyverse for this gift.
Ahah, Jocelyne might be Hank’s son from her family’s perspective since as far as we’re aware she hasn’t felt ready to come out to them yet, but we know she isn’t, so continuing to use words like he and his after that revelation is inaccurate.
I actually didn’t grok on that she was trans until the comments section. Someone referred to Joyce’s sister, and I was about to ask if I’d missed one, and then it dawned on me that that was the reveal.
I’ve never knowingly encountered a trans person who wasn’t out, and I was reading quickly, so my brain just thought Jocelyne was more like a pen name or alternate persona.
I think Word of God has confirmed it and her comments talking to Ethan made much more sense with the revelations, but it would have been a monumental trolling of the comment section to have it all be a massive red herring and her big secret was something like writing romance fiction under a female name (cause that sells better, you know).
Argh. This is driving me nuts. The eldest Brown child is John.
John is a completely different name from Jonathan. They’re barely even related (both come from Hebrew names that refer to God, but John is God is Gracious, Jonathan is God Has Given), for the tetragrammaton’s sake!
I think someone in one of the previous strips’ comments noticed a similarity between one of the sweater vests in the heap of clothing Becky handed Joyce to pack up and the one with the bloodstain on it that Joyce keeps buried in the bottom of the closet to avoid looking at it.
I think that the only scenario I can see Becky discussing Joyce’s experience without her express permission would be if she were satisfied that Joyce was suffering, that she em>wasn’t going to get the help she needed and that she was thus obliged as her sister-in-all-but-blood to her to talk to someone who can help.
I dunno, I see it much more likely that Becky will say out loud that oh crap, Joyce is alone outside and someone will be like “?” and she’ll be having to motor-mouth her way around it while rapidly exiting to care for Joyce. If that happens, my guess is that it will be Jocelyne who will fully pick up on the meaning behind it.
I would also bet on this, all of it. Becky has already been seen in-strip to be really aware of when Joyce is both alone and outside, more so than other characters who’ve known about Joyce’s troubles longer. (This is because Becky is an excellent friend and caring person.)
Not to downplay Becky’s objective superiority over the plebs she graciously allows into her presence, but she’s also one of three people who both know what happened and how badly Joyce has been affected by it.
Walky and Billie don’t register Joyce’s trauma, Dorothy thinks she’s dealing with it fine, Sarah knows that Joyce is still affected but had her suggestions of going to an authority figure shot down and feels uncomfortable saying anything about it probably out of fear of causing another Dana situation, and Sal figured out that Joyce was still incapable of being outside when she saw Joyce damn near have a panic attack when she was alone, and she still shot down therapy as a solution.
Becky saw Joyce get triggered by the mention of going to a party and how badly she was feeling even trying to talk about it, and was outright told by Sarah what happened. She’s basically got a stacked deck as far as knowing about Joyce’s problems and trying to help goes.
Have to say, really pleasantly surprised by Joyce’s dad here. My experiences do not parallel this at all. I know there are people who do come around out of their bigotry quickly and without much struggle. And I’m sure there are others who struggle with it but realize their bigotry is just that and willfully decide to oppose it like Hank is doing (actually, my grandmother falls in this category on gay rights issues, as did I on trans issues – it was one of those things for me where I don’t know what prompted it but one day I just started critically examining my belief system on that front and realized I didn’t really have anything to back up what I felt about them and that I was probably being pretty damn hypocritical by condemning biphobia but being transphobic myself. So because I am an academic I decided the best place for me to start would be learning more about trans people. So I started reading as much stuff from trans people – not about, though I did read some of the scientific research and what have you, but from because I figured straight people don’t know jack about being bi, so why would cis people know anything about being trans? – as I could. Annnd yeah, after a few months of basically lurking on trans blogs and learning a lot, I realized that it basically boiled down to me as a question of whether or not I trust trans people about their experiences and identity, and I decided I do. I’d like to say that was that but reality is that it took a good 3-4 years to really completely stamp out all the knee-jerk transphobic reactions I’d been socialized to have, and I still do have a hard time using proper terminology in all cases [weirdly, adopting proper pronouns and naming for two of my friends who have come out in the time since I started doing my damnedest to stamp out my inner transphobic bigot was nowhere near as much of a struggle for me]). So it is totally possible for a bigot to realize their bigotry is bigotry and work to correct it in themselves without much confrontation about their bigotry. For me to say otherwise would be pretty damn foolish. I did it.
It’s just, in my experience, there’s me, and there’s my grandmother, and that’s pretty much it. Every other bigot I’ve met had to be dragged kicking and screaming either through life experiences or social pressure to the conclusion of “they’re not so bad after all.” And maybe I’ve got sampling bias. But for me, when I made friends with the queer kids at school, there was a lot of, “Well, I can’t choose who you socialize with and if you like hanging around perverts that’s your choice but you’re not bringing them to this house” type of stuff and eventually after like two years of constant friction over it, they modified to “Okay I don’t think they’re evil but I don’t like it and do they have to be so in-your-face about it?” (only with more of a show of disgust and gratuitous gagging noises) and after I came out, it basically became a Thing One Shall Not Talk About. And that’s where it stands. Reportedly, they broke out champagne when I started dating my now-common-law spouse because “At least she’s not a lesbian. This way, we can get grandkids.” (I wasn’t there, but two different folks from back home told me about it and apparently that was how they found out. There is a reason I don’t visit home much.)
So, all that means: I am seriously, seriously relieved that Hank is trying to be decent. He might yet fail at it (in fact, looking upon my experiences when I was learning not to be a transphobic bigot, he almost certainly will and he’ll be really puzzled at what he did wrong because he won’t know why something hit a nerve yet – my experience is that well-meaning ignorance can hurt someone as much as malice, unfortunately.), but he is trying and that means something.
Oh, and full disclosure: I was dragged kicking and screaming through life experience into the equality camp on sexism, and LGB rights, and through a combo of life experience and social confrontation on racism and ableism. I very much think coming around on trans rights was just my subconscious going, “Hey you were wrong about those other issues, maybe you’re wrong about this, too! Just something to think about.” Like, I’d gotten humbled so much about internalized bigotry since my teen years I was at a point where my default assumption was that my knee-jerk reaction to stuff was going to be wrong, and I think that “I am probably wrong about everything” feeling – what Joyce is probably going to wind up getting before this story is through – really set me into the right headspace to confront my transphobia head-on. So I’m not super-special or anything – I just was in the right headspace to be able to start the process without external prodding on this issue, in particular.
Immersing people in diverse communities is pretty much the most effective means of stamping out their prejudices. It’s much harder to maintain an us vs. them mentality when them are right there in your face being just as much of a complex human being as yourself.
It’s also a great way to learn that those weird feelings and impulses aren’t things that every cishet dude experiences that you just need to learn to ignore.
Yeah, on the topic of diversity being important: I have a major soft spot for the Degrassi remake because the portrayals of Marco’s and Paige’s realization of their orientations there helped me to first recognize and then accept my bisexuality.
It helped me realize who I am and accept that in a way there is no way in hell I would have been able to until university, otherwise. Because, seriously, Degrassi was the first time I saw an (albeit imperfect) portrayal of what it’s actually like to not be straight, and it was the first time I was allowed to be exposed to the existence of non-straight people (largely cuz my folks assumed that a show aimed at preteens would be early-90s Disney type fare in terms of heteronormativity in content). In so doing, it helped me find a sense of self-respect and eventually, to find my way out of a really dark headspace of self-loathing that was made worse by the fact that I didn’t even consciously know why I hated myself so damn much and why I had so much shame and insecurity. So, yah.
Media representation of queer stories matters. I think I would have been an unhappier, angrier, meaner and more bitter person if I didn’t have that show to help start me on the path to self-acceptance despite everything else going on in my life at the time (cuz, for me at least, confronting my internalized bigotry started with realizing that I’m bi. I might’ve gotten a start on feminism still in my teen years because of my tomboyishness anyway, but the rest of it, I honestly don’t think I would’ve touched. The thing that set the house of cards falling, for me, was realizing that I am bi and that I didn’t think I was this disgusting evil person, and that I couldn’t accept that just having crushes on girls should be worthy of as much shame as I felt over it. And growing to accept myself helped me to become more tolerant and patient with others. I mean, every reformed bigot has their own story, but for me, it was just a, “wait, this feels way too familiar. Wait, is that it? Is that what I’ve been feeling about her?” and then everything unraveled and kind of went to hell in my head for a good three years or so but in the long run it was better it started when it did, I think – given my beliefs on bisexuality at the time, it was going to lead to a crisis for me sooner or later, and I’m honestly glad it happened before I was fully cemented into my bigoted beliefs, and at a time that I had stories and characters I could connect to and relate with to kind of serve as a mental anchor point). Forget the “it gets better” campaign (for me, at least, it just felt like so much condescending b.s. at the time. I couldn’t believe it because I was in a headspace where hope itself seemed like bullshit), what I needed as a teen – and what Degrassi gave me – was a role model, fictional or otherwise. I needed to know that other people like me existed, that they were dealing with some or all of the same shit that I was dealing with. I needed that sense of connection. “It gets better” didn’t give that to me. Degrassi, for all its other faults as a show, did. If you’re in a situation where you can’t get exposure to a diverse community, diverse media is a pretty good plan B.
I give all credit to the trans blogging community. Bloggers like Natalie Reid and Zinnia Jones and others either took on or take on (some of the ones who helped educate me are now inactive owing to the toll it takes to be the educator to bigots all the time) huge risks and mental burdens to educate and just put trans people’s stories out there. Their work convinced me, in a way that I don’t think just reading clinical advocacy organizations’ press statements would have nearly as quickly (if at all). They put human faces and voices to the issue for me.
Honestly, I think that if you are a person with empathy and compassion for others, and you are exposed to diverse points of view, you can’t help but to become more tolerant and less bigoted. I’ve discovered it over and over again, and it’s why I try to center my media consumption on the works of people unlike me as much as possible, and why I do my best to socialize with as many different people from me as possible (both online and off).
Thank you, Willis.
It’s nice to see a fundie-who’s-willing-to-trust-and-learn in this strip.
(Yes, he has a way to go. Don’t we all?)
Or a parent willing to trust their child’s judgement.
You’ve said many times that Joyce is you, more or less.
I hope this was your experience with one of your parents, too.
I wonder if Becky’s father was part of the reason Joyce’s dad is more accepting of Becky. Becky’s father held her at gunpoint in front of Joyce. Both girls could have been killed. I would start questioning my homophobia, too, if I saw how it could have gotten my child killed. Kind of like if you were a racist and your child is almost killed by the KKK. You’re going to start wondering if your racist views are as wrong as the KKK’s.
Regardless of any Christian overtones, Hank is a good dad. How many of us wish we had been told by our parents that they trust and respect us to do the right thing? Or even better, that they take our thoughts and feelings into consideration when having their own internal debate.
This makes sense to me. If we are to assume that Joyce’s family (with the exception of one sibling) is the most similar to their walkyverse counterparts Then this is the same christian family who after their children had left had the kama sutra in their drawrer, EXCEPT they were born 20 years earlier. This feels like a natural progression for him, and if this visit goes well for Becky, then it might give Jocelyne courage to be honest with the Browns.
Now go through it again WITHOUT skipping the comments. Sometimes they’re the best part. Other times… not so much. But well worth sifting through at least some each page.
Yay for A+ parenting from Joyce’s dad! That’s really awesome, and I love that we’re seeing a different take on the hyper religious characters, he’s working to accept that his world view might be flawed and that there are things where he doesn’t know best.
Finally a truly sympathetic Christian character? Or are we going to find out that he secretly keeps Richard Dawkins shackled in his basement to administer literal Bible bashings twice a day?
Is Danny a Christian? When did we find that out? Legit question since I don’t remember his faith, or a lack thereof, being mentioned.
(Personally, wouldn’t consider Billie to be a Christian by more than name/self-appointment, so to class her as a sympathetic Christian character implies more practice of faith than I’ve seen from her). Though Becky’s one of my favourites as a sympathetic Christian char because she’s so whackadoodle. She’s still like “whoa!” over Dorothy’s atheism and still seems to be thumping the Bible in a very casual way (learning about evolution and defending it to Joyce in a biblically-grounded remark rather than in a completely areligious way).
Danny talked about going to church earlier on and is familiar enough with the bible to know that Jesus flipped a table. Willis has described him as “nominally Christian.”
Billie believes in God, even describing it as “who doesn’t, really”, but like a lot of Christians doesn’t put much stock towards actively expressing it, and considered Dorothy being an atheist weird.
Both characters, who are married to each in the Walkyverse, also apparently teach Sunday school now.
Thanks! Although I grew up with a Muslim father and atheist mother, and even I know about Jesus and the money-changers, lol.
Not sure I’d count Billie as tone of the comic’s sympathetic Christians regardless of her remark on Dorothy. If a person’s just nominally Christian, it would be like being nominally vegetarian and remarking that eating meat is an abhorrent concept, but having hotdogs and ham sandwiches whenever you feel like having a hotdog or ham sandwich.
Joyce, Becky are only Christians in order to stop being Christians in service of the story. Billie is Christian but in name. We barely know anything about Sierra other than the fact that she seems nice and apparently is Christian. Joyce’s dad is the first Christian to appear as an actual believer that’s not going through a crisis of faith AND that is a decent human being (unless the basement thing I mentioned or similar comes up).
“Joyce, Becky are only Christians in order to stop being Christians in service of the story.”
– hahaha NO.
Stop with this no-true-scotsman. They are christians, Becky is far from being in a crisis of faith (if anything, her faith is stronger than ever because God answers lesbian prayers).
Sierra is a Christian, no “apparently” , that’s one of the few things we know about her. She goes to church with Joyce and likes the sermon.
I don’t know why you’re talking like that on Billie. Does ome have to wear their religion on their sleeves all the time to count for you?
Becky is just avoiding thinking too deep about it but her embracing science wholeheartedly, shows her willingness to shed her previous flawed beliefs without a thought, while keeping any that don’t seem inconvenient for her new lifestyle. That’s fast track course to completely losing your religion. In fact, Joyce’s hardship with it is what may allow her to, in the end, retain some well-thought, personally chosen compromise between faith and logic.
Sierra is apparently Christian precisely because it is the one thing we know about her. Her personality is either super shallow or intentionally left to the imagination. The jerk who harassed Joyce was also apparently Christian up until the moment we learned better.
And Billie? No I don’t think that religion must be worn on your sleeve all the time, but I do believe it shapes your thoughts and actions for better or worse. Her actions show absolutely no Christian behaviour nor way of thinking.
Anyway, I sense that you are getting defensive, but there’s no need. I’m not attacking the characters in question for not being religious or for having a crisis of faith. My criticism was aimed at the fact that there was not an overly, unmistakably Christian character with unshakeable beliefs until now that was shown in a positive way, which was unrealistic enough to make me suspect an agenda. Joyce’s dad is putting my suspicions to sleep, though. That’s why I jokingly suggested that he’s going to somehow end being antagonistic and a jerk.
There’s some non-assholes dads, like Dorothy’s, Dina’s, and Sierra’s. Charles Walkerton is kind of an idiot who along with his wife has made his daughter isolated and miserable for a decade plus, buuut I’m pretty sure if he ever found out about Sal’s feelings he’d try to make things right. Both of Ethan’s parents are kind of genuine shitbags but when Ethan finally stands up to them I can see his dad being more receptive to it than his mom, if only because his parental “shame your way outta the gay” abuse was tinged with an element of trying to make it sound like a positive, as opposed to his wife just being genuinely awful.
I really don’t know. Otoh, Yoda: Do or do not, there is no try. Otoh, one of my favorite songs (The Wheel),: Won’t you try just a little bit harder, couldn’t you try just a little bit more?
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circumventing those critical TSRs is tough, protect against BSoDs in HankOS by regularly putting your CPU into sleep mode
A tiny bit worried that he said “was” a good kid.
That could mean he’s trying recognize her now as an adult, not a kid…
that’s how I read it, especially since he calls Joyce a woman in the next panel.
I took it more as that he used to know for sure that she was a good kid, and though there’s now some doubt, he’s attempting to trust Joyce’s opinion. “And if you still think so, then I trust you that she still is.”
It was very philosophically correct language.
I don’t think he used the ‘was’ to mean she is no longer a good kid. I expect it’s that he knows they’re both adults now, but he knows Joyce better, and he had to look to his faith for advice with Joyce and he still has a bit of processing to do with Becky. She’s done something which, by his faith, he believes is wrong, but he wants to do the right thing by someone he cares about and accept that even if he disagrees with something, it’s not his place to judge.
TL;DR Mr Brown is a good, understanding man, he just needs time to process things that go against his own personal code.
The two perspectives are not mutually exclusive. He may mean it both ways.
Yeah, same. He was reminding himself that they’re not kids anymore.
Plus, I think he’s trying to reinforce that he respects Joyce’s judgement. When he knew Becky, she was a good kid; she and Joyce are not kids any more, and Becky isn’t the same person he knew (or thought he knew) when she was a child, so he’s going to trust Joyce’s judgement that she’s still a good person.
There’s a lot going on in those couple of sentences.
I think both meanings are present.
Yeah, that’s what I assume, especially as he refers to Joyce as being a woman now.
The way I read it, he’s saying, “I know for sure that she used to be good, and now I am trusting your opinion that she still is.” Since he hasn’t had any contact with her since before everything happened, it’s a reasonable stance.
This is how I read it. “She was previously good. You have good judgment. You think she is still good. Therefore, I accept she is still good.”
Yeah but he followed it with saying he was going to trust Joyce in believing she still IS a good kid. His beliefs and the people whom he knows tell him she’s supposed to be a bad kid now but he’s trying to trust his daughter and be more open about people.
That’s how I took it. I know she was a good kid. My faith says her defying her parents and being all queer are proof she is no longer “good”, but you have faith in her and see value in her and see someone who is good at heart, so I will trust your instinct over what my faith says I should view Becky as.
That wording concerned me too, but in his following line, he does say he trusts Joyce’s judgment that Becky is still a good person.
I for one say thank goodness for small victories. Hank is showing a rationality that we haven’t seen from a lot of the other “super-Christians” and I love seeing Christians practicing what Jesus really preached: love and understanding. If it takes him a while to open up or if he never does, at least he’s willing to come this far and not reject a struggling young person based on something they have no control over.
That he’s even trying is nice to see. Not even Joyce accepted it so quickly, though having a trusted loved one other than Becky herself vouching probably helps.
Digging deep for more humility instead of blowing up is great too, both as a joke and as an example to follow.
My mom’s an atheist, and she would already be yelling about how lesbians shouldn’t be doing that in public. (Being near each other and saying goodbye, like a normal couple. :p) Hank is WAY ahead of the curve when it comes to trying to be a decent person.
…lesbians specifically, or is she just opposed to public displays of affection? I don’t agree with either view, but prudishness is a lot more forgivable than homophobia.
One of the things I’ve learned in life is that it turns out homophobia gets a lot of support from religious groups but exists in vast quantities outside of it. Hell, look at [insert Godwin] and [insert other secular atheist asshat governments.]
Trust me, we tend to come up with a million arbitrary rules when it comes to queer displays of affection compared to straight ones.
Every once in awhile I’m surprised by finding a degree of internalized homophobia in myself, and I’m about as atheist as they come.
That internalized shit is sneaky! We should all watch out for it regardless of our backgrounds.
I also would imagine that he did a lot of praying over what Toedad did. The two of them probably had very similar, if not identical views, but recent events would have made Hank think about just how far he was willing to take his beliefs, and what the consequences of that might be.
A long time friend aiming a rifle at your daughter will do that to you.
Aww Joyce <3
Aww Joyce
Aww Hank
Loads of aww for everybody in this strip. 🙂 *(O wait, that’s just Joyce and Hank). Loads of aww for everybody else mentioned in this strip too. 😀
Hooray for nice Christian people!
He’s the Classic Flanders to balance out every other character being Modern Flanders! 🙂
Classic Flanders versus Modern Flanders?
TV Tropes can answer your question better than me: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization
Oh no! A TV Tropes link! There goes my night.
there goes everybody’s night and maybe week…..
Why do you hate me?
Classic Flanders: Overtly Christian, but a good father, neighbor, and person.
Modern Flanders: Religious Nutcase for the purposes of mocking that part of Christianity.
Wow, they really ruined him like that? I mean I get he was supposed to be a bit… over the top, but that second part? The show has really gone down hill. 🙁
It varies episode to episode, but he’s been off and on the “extreme for the purposes of parody” bandwagon since about the 5th season.
The simpsons always had sharp social subversive satire.
the critique of his religiosity was always sharp and on point. No other prime time TV show dared critique fundamentalism .
Hes also also the most sincere believer and the conscientious person in town.
Remember when he deprogrammed the Movementarianians ?
Strongly agreed! It’s really lovely to see.
I think this is pretty much the best possible outcome, considering Hank’s religious views. I mean, it makes sense, you’d mostly expect Joyce’s parents to be pretty much like Joyce but with a more set worldview. Really, even though they attended the same church, it seems like Joyce’s parents and Ross show the difference between decent people with strong ingrained religious beliefs and assholes with strong ingrained religious beliefs. (Like the difference between Joyce and Mary.)
I think we’re about to see some fireworks with Joyce’s parents being *far* from seeing eye to eye on this one.
I tried to point this out a couple days ago and people were so quick to call it a naive POV. -.-
I’m just glad to see a not Evil Dad for a change. It was starting to look like the Dumbiverse was just a sea of horrible fathers.
To be fair, Sierra’s dad seemed cool enough. And, while Dina’s parents insisted on being hospitable to Blaine, they didn’t know why they shouldn’t be, so that shouldn’t be held against them.
I am liking hank so far.
It’s like he channels dead crazy people!
…Wait, wrong Hank.
It’s like he builds killer robots!
…wait, still wrong Hank.
It’s like he sells propane and propane accessories.
… wait, still wrong Hank.
It’s like he’s spending years tracking down a secretive drug dealer, only to be brutally murdered.
Yes. This seems canon.
It’s like he’s some dog who calls himself the head of security.
Completely wrong Hank, what?
It’s like he rebuilt himself from Kryptonian technology and Superman’s DNA.
…no that’s a lot worse.
It’s like he’s actually the Martian Manhunter! Which is good!
It’s like he does Scishow!
Wait… wrong color Hank.
It’s like he’s a gay EMT in Chicago!
Wait, wrong Hank.
It’s like he shattered a major baseball record while combatting shenanigans-level racism!
…wait, wrong Hank.
Or the other power hitting Hank who shares the record for right handed batters who also battled racism — but he’s the wrong Hank also.
It’s like he finally had a good hair day!
–Wait, wrong Hank.
I was not the only one who read those books???
I read so many of those books. I especially liked his attempts to use words that he either made up or got wrong. Like when he snuck into the pickup bed using “syruptishus loaderation”. Called syruptishus because you moved slow, like syrup.
Nope -I loved them -still have most of the series, actually. The vocab, oh god… Those things were great.
It’s like he sells propane and propane accessories!
…Is that the wrong Hank?
It’s like he sells propane and propane accessories!
…pretty much the same hank
Haha great minds think alike…about propane.
It’s like he mutates into a blue and furry guy!
…. ok now I’m just pulling random Hanks from somewhere.
It’s like he’s secretly J’onn J’onzz!
Wrong Hank?
Gosh I love that one. Especially after this weeks’s episode!
It’s like he sells propane and propane accessories
… That feels like the wrong hank.
It’s like he is a killer robot…
Have we even met that Hank?
It’s like he brews his own beer at home.
…wait, damn it, still the wrong Hank.
It’s like he’s a Chog with two spines, a cross scar, and a rainbow haired bullet throwing girlfriend. Wait, wrong Hank
Lotsa points if you get the reference thoughI don’t get the reference, but I am intrigued.
It’s as if he secretly attends classes in-between his hours running a lunch wagon.
… there, I’ve out-obscured you.
It’s like he’s pretending to be a ghostly Miner Forty-Niner to scare people in a convoluted ploy to get unclaimed oil.
Wait, wrong Hank.
(Surprised that one wasn’t taken already.)
Have we just made a new meme? I’m loving it!
If i knew my little comment would create this I would have still done it, but I would have had one or two to add myself beyond the one hank I know (propane and propane accessories)
It’s like he goes on weird hardy boy/ Johnny Quest-esque parody adventures with his brother Dean.
Congratulations! You started something mildly epic on the internet. Now go out and do it again.
Oops… wrong Angus.
One parent down one to go.
If taking down Hank’s homophobia was the first Gym, Carol’s is gonna be the fucking Champion.
And not a weak one, I’m talking Cynthia-level difficulty curve.
Does that make Mary Team Rocket?
If only she’d blast off again.
I vote we launch Mary into the sky and find out if she does the “ting” thingy.
Won’t do anything. She’ll return later. Better, launch her into space.
Too expensive, and she might return as some sort of bigoted space zombie. Launch her into wet concrete. At high speed. Then pour more on top.
Unless she’s captured by lesbian space pirates? 😀
I know, we freeze her into carbonite. She can’t Solo her way out of this.
Solo did require someone who loved him to free him, after all…
Without going through all the other gyms? Man that’s going to be one insane difficulty spike.
Homophobia? Encountering something unfamiliar for the first time does not equal irrational fear.
While it isn’t completely accurate to its roots, homophobia has come to mean a fear, hatred, or distrust of homosexuals, which I believe was the making used in this context.
Wait everything isn’t going horribly wrong in the worst way? What comic am I reading?
while if everything is going good it is boring if everything is always horrid it is painful but also semi predictable so i like that it is being a mix.
Also, keep reading.
Willis likes to give us little bits of encouragement. That way, we keep the shred of faith in humanity alive in our hearts so that we still feel enough to be devastated when something inevitably goes wrong.
Like him reversing his stance if Jocelyn comes out because of Becky’s example, for instance…
Well peoples view change based on experiences. I think I read somewhere most people have a completely different mindset every 7 years or so on average
Well, considering what I thought seven years ago…
Ouch. Okay, yeah; completely different views and mindset.
I thought that was allergies…
That’s… very possible. Trans issues can often be an entirely different kettle of fish than queer issues and elicit very different responses even from people who are very queer-supportive, much less someone going into minor brain shock from the notion that a girl has a girlfriend.
I imagine when Jocelyne comes out, she’s probably going to lose both her parents.
Sometimes people can surprise you (I am aware that does not match your experiences though). When my son came out as trans to us we let our families in on it as well with the caveat that if anyone had any issues with it they were to keep it to themselves or we would cut that person out of our lives entirely in order to protect him because he had a hard enough road to travel. I expected some blowback from a few people, but truth be told everyone, even the fundies in the group, have been open and accepting.
True.
This is a pretty awesome example for parents to follow if they’re ever in these shoes.
Yeah, it’s a horrible truth that even when discussing issues affecting the queer community, trans people tend to get pushed to the wayside.
The T in LGBT is there for a reason, folks!
from my experiences the B seems to get shut down/belittled/etc a lot
Oh yes, sadly even from the gay community, though I wouldn’t pretend for an instant that we get as much shit as our trans peeps.
It is, in a very real sense, one of the worst political alliances in living memory, at least in the USA. Like, not ‘worst’ in terms of what they want, but worst in terms of their ability to function as an alliance that doesn’t hate other members of the alliance.
There’s always the possibility of Carol trying to browbeat him into rejecting Becky later. Whether or not she succeeded, that would devastate Joyce.
I’m guessing it’s high probability that she will, and he’s saying these things knowing it. He believes God is telling him to listen to Joyce; he’s not going to give up what God says to do just because his wife wants him to.
You wish he isn’t
The other shoe hasn’t gone away, it’s just gaining height for the drop.
Just wait until he tries to balance his newfound openmindedness with loving and respecting his wife and her closed mindedness.
*yet
D’aww. I’m glad he’s trying to be understanding.
I guess he is non-toe-dad?
Man, Joyce is having the BEST day! ^_^
Yaaaaay~
Seriously, I am so happy that this is even going a LITTLE bit well. I cannot stop smiling, even knowing how badly this could end.
Mr Brown: And what are they doing now?
Joyce: Dina is talking about how dinosaurs existed 65 million years ago and are the ancestors of modern birds.
Mr Brown: ::Faints::
Joyce: While kissing! Licky-style!
Hank: *anaphylactic shock*
He’s allergic to kissing? I think apoplexy was the word you were looking for. It’s actually a symptom of pulmonary hypertension but used to be believed was caused by severe sudden emotional stress.
Baby steps, you gotta give him baby steps. But at least he’s trying.
Hank: “And is that your atheist… um, friend behind them?”
Joyce: “And her mixed-race boyfriend!”
Hank: “… yeah, okay, that’s fine. Just don’t mention it to grandpa.”
Joyce: “She wants to be the first atheist president and the first woman president!”
Hank: …. *coronary*
at the rate America’s going, that might be true =|
You can’t be President of the US until minimum age 35. Assuming Dorothy is 18 now, the soonest she can be president is in 17 in-comic years. So we’re looking at, what, 500 rl years? That’s a pretty pessimistic outlook.
lol! when you put it that way, i hadn’t until this moment fully appreciated just how diverse joyce’s world had suddenly gotten! mixed-race and atheists and lesbians, oh my!
Joyce pokes her unconscious father with her foot and mutters under her breath “yeah, I’m not happy about that one either.”
Joyce: The term i use for her is Evilutionist!
Hank: So she has only strengthened your belief! I will invite her to accompany us!
Joyce: *faints*
Five points for trying!
Five points to…shoot, what Hogwarts house would he be (if Harry Potter wasn’t a satanic recruiting toll of course)?
Joyce is clearly a Hufflepuff, so I’ll go with that. Five points to Hufflepuff.
Loyal, humble, and steady: the Sorting Hat has spoken.
And he’s working on finding things! It’s a perfect fit!
He seems a bit unsteady, but sure. And Joyce, in her own way, could also be a Gryffindor.
Let’s see. Other characters.
… why? BECAUSE DERAIL, that’s why.
Dorothy: ANY OF THEM. (Hey, the sorting hat sometimes give you the choice.) She’s clever and studious enough for Ravenclaw, firm enough in her convictions for Gryffindor, civic-minded enough for Hufflepuff, and ambitious enough for Slytherin.
Becky: GRYFFINDOR.
Amber/Amazi-Girl: Gryffindor.
Sarah: Any save Hufflepuff
Dina: Ravenclaw. MAYBE Hufflepuff.
Billie: Gryffindor or Hufflepuff.
Ruth: Gryffindor or Slytherin.
Sal: Gryffindor. Fighter all the way.
Danny: HUFFLEPUFF.
Mike: Ravenclaw. (Not Slytherin. He’s got zero ambition. But he IS clever.)
Walky and Joe: No clue.
What do you mean, Mike’s got no ambition? He looks for the perfect way to needle you, then attacks. And then he’ll fuck your mom for a nickel.
Also, Dorothy’s clearly Hermione, so I’m gonna go with Walky as Ron.
It only counts as ambition if it’s a goal you’re working towards, rather than something you do daily.
Yeah, I wasn’t sure about Walky or Joe either. They don’t work hard enough to be Hufflepuffs, so I guess Walky would make a good Ravenclaw? Joe doesn’t have much in the way of ambition that we’ve seen, so if he’s anything like his Walkyverse self Ravenclaw might fit him well too. I think Billie would make a good Slytherin though; she’s willing to be underhanded to get her way, and while she’s a little lacking in the ambition department, her courage isn’t so great either.
Any except Hufflepuff for Sarah? She works hard and cares deeply about the handful of people she permits herself to care about.
Does Joe ‘just’ have sex all the time in the same way Mike looks for chunks in people’s armor to stick his blade thru, or is it Joes ambition to sex with all the ladies on campus who his particular moral standards put out of bounds?
Slytherin is also cunning/ gameplaying. Ambition is kinda the PR face of the silver and green. Mike fits the other attributes fairly well.
Danny would make a decent gryffindor, I think, but his difficulty to place does default him to hufflepuff, even in absence of the hard working aspect.
Dorothy: Ravenclaw or Slytharin. I feel the former, she’s motivated mostly by intelligence, the ambition seems to be secondary.
Becky: Gryffindor.
Amber: Gryffindor.
Sarah: Slytherin. She’s
evilsmart and mean, and will screw people to keep herself safe.Dina: Ravenclaw. Intelligence first.
Billie: Hufflepuff. She’s loyal, just usually in the worst possible way.
Ruth: Rejected. She doesn’t care about being smart, only looks out for herself enough to keep the status quo, not to advance, she’s definitely not loyal to those she’s charged with protecting, and she backed down when confronted with danger. She’s going to have to step up somehow before I can sort her anywhere.
Sal: She’s loyal and brave. Could go either way.
Danny: Loyal to a fault, even when it’s a terrible idea.
Mike: Walkyverse I’d say Hufflepuff, surprisingly, but here I’m not sure. We haven’t really seen enough of him to know.
Walky: Ravenclaw. He is smart, he just needs to work at it more.
Joe: Who?
Carla: Gryffindor. She’ll gladly invite trouble rather than change anything about herself. Hell, just look at her outfit last time.
When has Sarah ever thrown someone under the bus for her own benefit? Dana was in a downward spiral. Sarah was helping, and sacrificed Raidah and the others’ opinion of her to do so. Protecting her own academics was a factor, yes, but I would argue that it just pushed her to see how bad Dana was getting.
As for Sal, Gryffindors value loyalty too. It’s her hard work that would make her a good fit for Hufflepuff, but that didn’t come naturally to her; if she requested Hufflepuff, I’m sure the hat would place her there and she’d do well, but she’s a shoe-in for Gryffindor.
Disagree completely on Dorothy. For her, knowledge is not an end to itself; it’s the means by which she will one day gain control of America’s nuclear arsenal. If that’s not ambition, and thus Slytherin, in spades, then nothing is.
I don’t buy that ambition alone is enough for Slytherin. If so, any politician would be in Slytherin, and that didn’t seem to be the case. Wiki lists cunning as a “nice” requirement, but I’d say the big thing is a sort of scheming. Maybe it can be a good scheming for good things, but it’s still scheming.
There’s also the huge self-preservation instinct, while Dorothy is so others focused that I almost want to put her in Hufflepuff. She studies for herself, but she’s all about being a loyal friend.
Then there’s just what she’s doing for her goals. It’s all schoolwork. Not learning oratory or people skills. Not running for school politics. Not going out and being a political activist of any kind. Being any sort of community leader. It’s all studying, all the time.
She just doesn’t seem to be power hungry enough for Slytherin. I think even a Gryffendor could run for president to protect people. Why not a Ravenclaw, to be the smart person who knows how to do things?
I imagine Dorothy would pick Slytherin when the hat’s hemming and hawwing over the options, then immediately regrets it when she realizes she can’t stand any of her housemates.
Dorothy is in Ravenclaw now, but is going to transfer to Slytherin once she convinces the Sorting Hat to give her another chance.
Ooh! A Sorting Hat for college placements?!
I’d be inclined to sort Joyce into Gryffindor. They value loyalty too, and it takes some serious courage to confront the ugliness in what she was taught.
That, and they tend to end up with all the main protagonists. Hufflepuff is a good fit too, though.
Joyce is the main character, so obviously Gryffindor. Hank is a secondary character whom no one really cares about, so obviously Hufflepuff. Dina is a nerd, so obviously Ravenclaw. Mary is a villain, so she obviously goes into the Slytherin Designated Villain Repository. Dorothy gets the Gryffindor Major Character Override, regardless of any other houses that she might be better suited for.
Hahaha yep
I think this is way better than trying. He’s actually thought about it, and cast off 50+ years of religious upbringing in favour of trusting his daughter and her friend as good people. It’ll take him more than a couple days to be okay with seeing Becky kiss a lady, but he is still going to ‘smile and nod’ and not be a jerk about it. This is a very good place to start.
This.^
Well, he’s … Most of the way there at least? Part way there? Maybe?
Heckuva lot better than everyone was expecting, that’s for sure.
The highest barrier to change is often the recognition that it has to happen. Now, this may happen on many subjects, and there may be many barriers, but that first “I’m not infallible and neither are my influences” barrier is often the most difficult to clear.
I’m sure he’s going to screw up and regress at points, but good on him here, recognizing perhaps his long-held beliefs are not necessarily the right answers. And even if he does regress, he’s shown the capacity to grow.
“Tolerant, but not stupid! Look, just because you have to tolerate something doesn’t mean you have to approve of it! …”Tolerate” means you’re just putting up with it! You tolerate a crying child sitting next to you on the airplane or, or you tolerate a bad cold. It can still piss you off!” — Mr. Garrison
I think he’ll be fine so long as no one mentions Dina’s principle interest to him. I think he’d actually have more issues with that than he does with her homosexuality.
*plays Talking Heads’ “Girlfriend Is Better” on the hacked Muzak*
I’m so FUCKING THANKFUL that Hank is okay with Becky. He did the smart thing and trusted Joyce on the situation, which is the best thing to do. See, not all Christians are evil.
However, Carol may be a piece of counter-evidence to that statement. Let’s see how it goes.
I like that as a swear. “That guy’s a real piece of counter-evidence!”
:-)!
i should feel relief but instead i feel a growing sense of dread.
That’s just the relief getting the previous dread out of the way so that you can sense the next iteration of dread that the previous dread was masking.
It’s like Russian nesting dolls of dread.
I love how accepting Hank is becoming, even though at the end of this strip he struggles a bit. But the fact that he’s trying to be understanding about this makes me feel happy.
Joyce’s mom on the other hand…She won’t be happy at all. I wouldn’t put it too far out there to say possible marriage issues.
The last panel makes it much more realistic and just makes me more hopeful, honestly. He’s still struggling with the beliefs he’s had ingrained in him for so long, but it’s a very straightforward show of how he is recognizing his own reaction and how he’s going to have to work on it.
That said, how well things are going with him, we can probably expect all hell to break loose with Mrs. Brown. I just hope Becky will chill some; there’s no avoiding Mrs. Brown knowing Becky is a lesbian at this point, but if she starts talking evolution then shit will really hit the fan.
I’ve got a tiny niggling hope that she’d be able to justify it to them, suggest it’s a tool of God, and present evidence, but for that to have even a chance of success Carol would have to let her talk. I don’t have the heart to crush that hope myself.
I don’t have much hope for that situation, really, but on the positive side, I recently heard someone managed to convince a bunch of creationists that dinosaurs A) existed and B) had feathers.
http://a-dinosaur-a-day.com/post/137460634550/i-have-a-friend-who-knows-a-lot-of-creationists
The last panel may not be a belief so much as a reaction because he’s never seen girlfriends kissing in this way and it feels wrong to him because.
Just think happy thoughts. Happy thoughts, happy, happy thoughts. Peril-sensitive sunglasses at the ready.
The smile is back!
I imagine a significant portion of her recent frustration was feeling like she would inevitably have some irreparable rift with her family. It’s probably a huge relief to know she still has at least her father’s love and trust.
Yes! Someone noticed!
I’m glad Hank is accepting Becky, I don’t think Carol will do the same thing.
Two days ago, I thought that everything was about to fall apart.
Yesterday, I was pleasantly surprised by Hank, but still nervous.
Today, I’m allowing myself to think that things might be okay.
Willis has you right where he wants you. #mwahaha
Huh. He’s actually putting effort into being an understanding guy, despite his background. Maybe everything isn’t fucked.
Cue everything going to hell.
Carol.
Nuff said.
Yeah, I am having the distinct feeling that we are not gonna get Psycho Dad, but Psycho Mom this go around.
I dunno. I’m thinking Carol will grumble a bit, maybe debate a little, but not go full-out fundie-lycanthrope. She’ll just be hugely relieved that Joyce is all right.
I’m speculation that some series of events with Becky might lead to the revelation that Joyce has a big sister.
I can see this happening—and a real Joyce-Jocelyn bonding moment as the outcome, which means that neither of them has to feel so alone going forward. (Please, Willis?)
Considering that panel of terrified looking Joyce a while back: Lol, nope.
Maybe she’s terrified because SHE’S expecting things to go badly and then they DON’T? Maybe? Please, Willis?
Willis linked to a very personal post when the strip where Carol expressed her relief that Joyce was okay (“I’d die for you”), about how often he had that conversation with his own mom and how horrible it was and how emotionally blackmailed he felt, so I wouldn’t hold your breath for Carol just being relieved and accepting.
Maybe everythings isn’t broken.
Joyce still is.
Yes, yes, this is how you dad.
Yup.
Verbing nouns just weirds the parentage!
I predict a breaking point.
That is just great. WTG Mr. Brown. Joyce and Becky are going to need you when you get them home.
“Ok. I understand the kissing but why are they roaring like dinosaurs? Is that what gays do?”
“Well, Ethan didn’t do that, but I don’t really know a lot of lesbians so maybe.”
“Actually, wait, he DID do it once. Something to do with someone called Dinobot?”
“Me Grimlock questioning sexuality!”
Joyce Brown has got a lovely papa. So far anyway.
Quick question to the fundies and ex-fundies present, what does Hank mean when he says that the Lord told him? Is that literal, like he hears the voice of God speaking to him?
Very few people I’ve ever seen claim to hear a literal voice. The idea is usually that God is always trying to “speak” to everyone, to guide them into doing the right thing through impulses and emotions. The kind of prayer he’s talking about is almost a kind of meditation, where you try to open yourself up to God to receive and understand those little messages he’s trying to send.
Basically they equate the conscience with the voice of God.
Seconded. Former fundie with fundie family here, and everything I’ve ever heard is just… Sensation. A sense of peace when they feel like they’re on the right track at last, ascribed to divine intervention.
I’ve felt that, myself; made the same ascription. It’s a really nice feeling; like the world just… Finally makes sense for a little while.
I think the word you are looking for is “grace.”
Hah, I see I spent too long trying to figure out how to phrase the same question. 🙂
It occurs to me that since Joyce’s phone call, where she declared her support for Becky, Hank and Carol must have discussed this situation. I wonder what that conversation sounded like.
Honestly, with Toedad’s rampage, their entire community (their church group, I mean) must have discussed it. No gossip like church gossip.
Uh sorry that was not supposed to be a reply to this, I screwed up.
I actually wonder about if they ever even heard her voice mail. I mean, Carol immediately called Joyce back after she left the message. It’s possible that as soon as Carol saw who the message was from, she called back and then forgot about the voice mail in her relief that Joyce was OK.
Ain’t no gossip like a church club gossip cause a church club gossip don’t stop
To me it sounds more like: “She was able to convince me with citing the bible!
I was suspecting her to failing her belief, but she was proving me that she knows better what the word of god actually is. I did not exhaustive study of the bible (which i should have and she did) so i will trust her.”
I’ve always thought of it as a strong emotional response towards a certain thing. I’ve heard people say “God called me to do such and such,” and I always thought of it as feeling a sudden strong desire to take your life that direction. In this case it would be thought of as through his prayers, he has come to the realization that Joyce is old enough to make reasonable decisions and judgments on her own and that he should trust the daughter that he raised.
Then there’s all the candidates whom God called to run to be President. In the same year.
God loves watching a good fight, I guess.
The Lord sent him an email with his opinion on the subject, Hank responded that he’d prefer a formal phone call. God met him in the middle and just sent his thoughts via mail. Fortunately, heaven has a great mail system and he got his letters in 2-3 business days.
Meanwhile, Satan managed to get on the dev team that programs the spam filters. This is why some other Christians (the email ones) either didn’t get the message or got one with key portions blocked.
Emails never work for God
http://www.27bslash6.com/easter.html
It’s always kinda felt like that pulse of societally imposed fate read through the lens of a more specific set of rules (doctrine)
Btw this is a major theme of Final Fantasy XIII
Final Fantasy XIII is awesome
and
I love it.
You can disregard everything I’ve ever said now.
(fundie, but for a non-USian definition of)
There’s the literal voice crowd for sure, but Hank seems to me the dawning-realisation-while-praying-that-he-should-be-accepting-this type. Or maybe the gradual-realisation-of-what-certain-passages-have-to-say-about-each-other type.
Something I haven’t seen mention of today is his explicit admission of Joyce’s authority over herself. This is a huge contrast with the dragging away and (as was pointed out yesterday) passive-aggressive laying-on-of-hands of his last visit.
USian pentecostalism has an enormous problem with allowing women to have opinions, let alone with men deferring to them. Hank’s stepping a long long way outside his tribe here, and I’m wondering if we’re going to find a Carol who isn’t just panicking over oh noes teh gays but who is also possibly adrift with having her own role (as one who should look to Hank for authority in all things) being redefined.
(aside aside: trawling back to get a handle on Carol, I find this weird thing where Hank is echoing Becky. Damn you Willis, you mad masterful genius.)
It’s also likely he might be reconsidering his attitude towards gays, children (and maybe even women), in light of what Ross did. Realizing that Ross’s actions are driven by an extreme version of his theology, he’s rejecting it.
I wouldn’t assume that at all, because it’s really not what Hank said.
Rejecting parts of the Bible they don’t like isn’t how the Browns operate, either;remember that Joyce tried to find a loophole re: the gay thing, and felt incredibly guilty about it.
Mr. Brown says he feels God has asked him to trust her judgment, and he’s extending that to Becky; I think if he meant “our neighbor’s attempted murder spree gave me second thoughts about Leviticus,” he would’ve said something about having a crisis of faith.
In this case, he’s attributing his insight to divine guidance.
the first and only religious friend ive ever had said that god used to talk to her and she could talk back. i always just assumed she wanted to sound special
My sister says the same thing. Thankfully the big guy is telling her to be a calm, rational person, as opposed to a Trump like being.
God once told me that Pat Robertson is a liar.
It varies from person to person, my mother feels like she had literal conversations with God at some point, I feel like God waits til I’m in a nice and religious experience-y mood (has happened twice)
Now the only confusing thing about that is that during both experiences I have interpreted the feeling I got as “I should be a priest… And also God’s saying I should just f*** my boyfriend.” So I don’t know what the fuck is up with God’s messages.
Oh look, there’s finally a decent Christian character so everyone can lay off Willis about his smearing of them!
You mean, besides Joyce? And Billie? And Sierra? And Becky?
Honestly, I don’t think that everyone will lay off Willis.
I was being sarcastic. And you’re right about that, I doubt nothing will please some of these people. Maybe they’ll be happy because he’s a good Christian who’s a dude.
Are you kidding? I’ve seen some of the Willis haters. The ones i noticed are the sort who aren’t in it for bigotry so much as just because they enjoy having something to hate, though I’m pretty sure a lot of them, maybe as many as 40%, are pretty bigoted.
I dont have anyone/anything i really hate. im to lazy for that stuff. I mean do you realize how exhausting it is to always be hating something. Now dislike thats another story. or irritated/annoyed but never full on hate.
Yep. Nicely done. I think the refreshing bit is that he’s doing good things due to his faith, not despite it. (And honestly, virtually everyone else with a religious background is shown ‘overcoming it admirably’. Even Joyce is about 60/40, and she’s pretty much the best counterexample.)
Actually, I think this is kinda true?
I think Hank is closer to the kind of character that at least that one commenter, the one Willis responded to with a picture of Becky, would be looking for.
But maybe only for this one strip.
If he has too strong an arc, then no.
If he is used as a proxy for the toleration vs acceptance argument, no matter the stance the narrative takes on it, then yes. Because this is a character driven story.
So long as he is fleshed out as a character and ascribes to what they believe to be an open-mindedness, they should still like him.
I think.
Well, that guy was explicitly looking for a nice Christian bigot, so I’m not sure if anything’s going to satisfy him.
Hank’s probably as close as we’re going to get, but if he doesn’t get in some good lecturing to Becky about how homosexuality is a sin, but he loves her anyway and will pray for her to repent, I don’t think he’ll qualify.
Which is just fine by me.
And the vast majority of the campus who would self identify as christian without being jerks about it?
They’re not “characters”. No lines, no storyline, no character traits, no names. Doing anything else is acting like they’re real people who, I guess, have feelingt that need to be considered, or backstories that exist independently of The Boss drawing/writing them. Which they don’t. That’d be ridiculous.
It’s as if I were to say that the guys who bullied Danny and the various people AmaziGirl beats up represent the majority of people on campus’ views about life. It’d just be projection, and someone doing that would be telling you way more about themselves and their brains than anything relating to “the world” of the comic.
Don’t you know? It’s smearing to imply that ANY Christian isn’t practically perfect in every way. Doesn’t matter how many good examples there are; if there are any bad examples, they will refuse to accept the work.
And positive portrayals of Christians who don’t agree with theology count even less.
There’s this one book that represents them really positively*, and it’s almost as popular as the Beatles. I hear it’s a good book.
*except for some passages, but let’s not right now
For a work by a dude who has a rep for being a hyper leftist tumblr pandering Ess Jay Double U, I can’t recall a series with as much positive representation of Christian characters, as in folks who don’t just say “oh yeah god and stuff” and go on with their day but actually all have complex relationships with their faith given importance to various degrees for each character, as Dumbing of Age has.
Double Me?
I wrote it that way because the abbreviation’s been bongo’d into something else.
Really? I’ma try it here: SJW
teehee!
Ahhhhh I’m very relieved, but also am bracing for tolerating vs accepting.
Toleration is fine, it’s enough.
Whether you accept others or not is, in the end, your own right as a person to decide. But toleration is what you owe everyone, as a basic matter of decncy.
(Except the arseholes — you don’t need to tolerate the arseholes).
I think he’s trying to be accepting, not just tolerant. The last panel is his admission that he’s having to pace himself on that.
I would very much agree on that.
I think this is just about the very best we could hope for. It’s not like Hank would suddenly stop hating homosexuality, but he will smother his bigotry in love for his Pretty-Much daighter.
I feel like Hank’s bias comes more from being old-fashioned rather than straight-up bigotry. The fact that he’s willing to be cool about Becky shows that he’s at least trying to be understanding, which is better than nothing.
I don’t think this is about just burying it in love for Joyce. I think this honestly IS what he said — humility to realize he might be wrong, respect for the wisdom of the woman his daughter’s turning into, and genuine welcome for the best friend of said daughter who’s been a guest at their house who knows how many umpteen times before and just went through a really shitty experience.
This is what Joyce went through too. Her abstract prejudices ran face-first into real people and the prejudices lost out. (Slowly. With many death throes.) Is it so hard to think that the apple fell far from the tree?
… well it did with Becky, but.
Joyce is his actual daughter; his Pretty-Much daughter would be Becky.
Aside from that, I agree completely.
Agreed, a lot. Assumin’ you know the absolute will of God on all things, and that your perception never needs to change… That sounds to me like a particularly poisonous version of the sin of pride.
I’d prefer he be the kind of christian who never even considered that hatin’ folk was part of God’s will, but I’ll take what I can get.
I am greatly reminded of my own dad. This is a good thing. Thanks, Dad.
🙂
Same. My dad wasn’t particularly religious, so he didn’t used to think that being gay was WRONG, but he had only known one queer person (my uncle) who was very deeply mentally ill (unrelated to his sexuality) and super unhappy. My dad equated queerness with a bad life and was really sad for me when I came out initially.
He got over it. About a year ago, he emailed me a discussion that he had been having with my aunt, where he was trying to encourage her to move away from her religiously-justified homophobia, by saying that Jesus’ only real rule was to love each other. And then he thanked me for making him a better father and a better person.
So now I’m tearing up in public, but. Dads can learn. PEOPLE can learn. Hank wanting to learn is a really good step.
Yes, my dad too, a good man who had a rough road growing up, who wanted to learn from his kids, and did. Bless him. AND, thanks for this strip, Willis, it put me in touch with some good feelings I’d kind of lost grasp of.
Oh.
Hank’s being… reasonable and accepting that there are some things his daughter is going to understand better than him? And… he’s actually turning out to be an okay person? And his presence and actions are actually making things just a little bit better for the main characters?
I legitimately don’t know how to respond to this. Did I accidentally click on the wrong webcomic?
No, you just fell through the hole in the space-time continuum into the parallel universe where Willis tries to reassure us everything is going to be okay.
…. did you just use the phrases “hole in the space-time continuum” and “everything is going to be okay” in the same sentence there?
But no, this story’s going to be about Joyce being lulled back into her Christian community after Toedad alienated her from it. It’ll remove a lot of the worries she has but will also regress some of the progress she’s made. So I predicteth.
That makes sense. I suppose we shall see.
And Sober Mike is like Drunk Mike in the Walkyverse?
So I gotta be honest, I’m not really on board with going “yay for not being the worst person” for Hank. I’m glad he’s learning that a lot of his preconceived notions about Becky are wrong and deserved to be questioned, that he needs to accept that he might not be correct and place faith in his daughter, but, eh. I’m not really up for praising someone for as basic a standard of human decency as “gay people are ok i guess”.
What’s more interesting to me is Joyce’s reactions through the strip. She’s genuinely concerned she’ll be back in the same place she was with Dorothy, having to protect somebody she loves from somebody else she loves and who should be listening to her, and gradually loosens up to the point where she’s happily introducing Becky’s girlfriend to her dad, because listening to him here made her trust him enough to outright show him that, yep, Becky’s gay. It’s real and there’s her girlfriend and they smooch on the mouth and talk about sweet dinosaur facts all the time.
I’m sitting at let’s just say cautious optimism with a large dollop of cynicism. Hank’s growth is important and sadly, a large step for him, and it’s meant the world to both Becky and Joyce here in this moment, but as he’s starting from such a large point back, he’s very likely to say something incredibly messed up this weekend. And that could sting all the more.
I also hope that this is the beginning of real growth rather than just a “okay, I view her kinda like a person, we’re good” (I think it might be, but I’m hesitant to trust it). Especially since my uncle was super fond of pulling a constant bait and switch with initial expressions of support. No, I really am trying, please patiently explain everything. (five hours later over the phone) [hateful slurs] and bigoted rants about genitals.
I don’t think Hank is going to do that, but I’m definitely on guard for him to do something sometime this weekend that reminds us of just how much he’s working through with trying to be supportive.
I’m expecting that too, and I haven’t even been conditioned to expect that kind of shit from people. I wonder what it’d take to crack Becky’s cheerful facade.
Still, he’s genuinely trying. That’s the first step.
Well so far it’s taken rejection by her first love and literally being kidnapped at gunpoint by her father. Assuming Becky is putting up a facade it’s made of like 2 feet of reinforced concrete.
I think everyone whose actually queer is pretty much in the “Okay this is nice so far but don’t let yourself forget that it could go to shit at the drop of a hat” boat with you.
That’s basically where I’m at, too.
Looking at my own experiences un-learning bigotry, that he’s going to screw something up is basically a given to me. It’s an issue of how badly he screws it up, and whether he’s willing to stand up for something in support of Joyce and Becky even though he still subconsciously feels at best divided on it.
And from my experiences, my money is on “badly, and not yet,” respectively. Cuz, yeah. Live and learn, but damn if I don’t wish I could take back some things and actions and re-do them with the benefit of hindsight. And, also, my friends were far, far more tolerant of the learning process than I ever had any right to expect them to be.
Hank is in a dangerously ignorant spot right now. He doesn’t know what he doesn’t know, and that very often backfires.
@Spencer, Cerberus: Processing.
PS, your input, and that of some other folks here, gets priority in my processing qeue when you’re talking about/from your experience. (Spencer, you even caused me to reevaluate and alter my understanding of Mike–if not to adapt yours.)
Cookies welcome, but not necessary: I don’t expect thanks or praise for TRYING in my feeble & stumbling way to do Right, I do it because that’s who I want to be and, on the other hand, people who have been Wronged by so many do not need always be optimistic and give every one The Benefit of the Doubt and hold a parade for every baby step or be patient and polite and tactful and saintly — not ALL the time, looking at you Cerberus — some of The Other Thing even breaks up the glacier a bit and can move society along. I think.
It’s not really praise for not dehumanizing gay people, more for, well, the title of the strip. Learning that you can be wrong is incredibly hard and embracing that you can be wrong is incredibly, what’s the word, valiant? Noble? Good? Awesome? Rare? One of the most important things you can possibly do as a human?
Humility is what allows people to take in information and grow from it but it’s not an easy virtue to obtain, not only because of our closed. offensive/defensive culture, but because the belief you have is a sure sign you haven’t. The attainment of humility is the constant attempt to attain humility. And a sincere show of that is praise-worthy, no matter where their beliefs currently stand. Because they want to know what’s right, not just to be right. And they have the greatest capacity to learn what that is.
I’m a full thimble and he’s and empty jug.
Sorry a lot of that didn’t quite make sense, I kinda dumbed some stuff down because I’m super tired and I also wrote bad because I’m super tired.
There are like, 2 incredibly similar thesis there and blah blah blah
Spencer, you are so hard to please. Okay here.
Spencer: God, make everybody in the world an enlightened liberal humanist atheist.
God: Pffft. As if. W-wait. Actually, that’s a heaven of an idea. Done! Ah, blessed silence. No more calls about political campaigns and football games when I’m in the middle of reading the comments section of Dumbing of Age.
You know, on one hand, I do agree that his current bar isn’t that high in itself. Nothing to applaud about per se.
However, it used to be even lower. That’s important. He’s going in the right direction. And yes, such an improvement -should- be acknowledged in a positive manner; if for nothing else, then for the fact that positive reinforcement works a hell of a lot better than the opposite.
I mean, think about what you would say to Hank if you stood face to him. The two main options are (apologies in advance for corny dialogue, by the way; hopefully the meaning will be clear):
1: “I’m really glad you’re improving. I hope I can help you understand further how people that are different than you are still good.”
2: “Yeah, you’re finally being less of a dickhead now. Don’t expect any applause from me.”
Giving him the second type of response is not going to make him happy at all. It’ll only reinforce his opinion that people that aren’t properly subservient to God aren’t good people. It’ll make him regress.
Now, here’s a link to a story about someone who started out in a place far worse than Hank (Small warning: As the link title implies, it will talk about many of the horrible things the WBC does) :
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/23/conversion-via-twitter-westboro-baptist-church-megan-phelps-roper
The thing that strikes me the most in this article is that throughout this conversion, Megan Phelps-Roper was helped to convert away from WBC through friendliness. Yes, she was an awful person, but shouting at her how awful she was did nothing. Friendliness did. Thinking of her as a human being did. And I’m pretty damn sure those friendly people applauded her every step of the way, even when she was still below what could be called “basic human decency”. David Abitbol in particular must have had an almost saintly patience stretching over years in order to reach through to Megan. But the patience, thankfully, did pay off.
I knew I posted my other thing too early.
I’m also pleased cuz this puts the kibosh on people saying “OMG Becky’s totally neglecting Dina like she hasn’t even said goodbye.”
Seeeriously. People have been so eager to explain how Becky is SUPER SELFISH and hurting either Dina or Joyce or both of them… it’s been grating >_<
He still deserves a lot of credit for even contemplating that he could be wrong. Do you know how many people ever actually think that “hey, I might be the one in the wrong here”, on either side of the belief fence? It’s not a lot of people. The standard, human reaction is to go NO IT IS THEM WHO ARE WRONG and double down. Hell, even in this very comic, that’s pretty much what everyone except Joyce and now her dad always do.
It takes some serious brass balls to admit outloud that you could be wrong, and the two Browns have done so. That merits some praise.
I feel like a lot of us are not so much praising him for his own sake as we are “being IMMENSELY RELIEVED that he isn’t a hell of a lot worse” in his general direction.
Pretty much this. He’s stepped up to “basic decent human being”, which is well above what we were primed to expect.
And more: not so much his actual attitude, but his reasons for it are actually well above that mark. Learning from your kids and accepting their judgment is a really hard step for most parents, but even more so for someone coming out of the toxic “father/husband is boss and makes the decisions” culture they’re steeped in.
Joyce’s dad is learning, positive reinforcement is key. Tolerance and co-existence is the end goal here, judgement of him as a person is of secondary importance.
Joyce had to get it from somewhere.
Good idea Mr. Brown! That’s actually a very good idea!
Maybe he’s so ok with it because he doesn’t know about Dina’s love of the science stuff…
Or Becky’s love of the science stuff, for that matter. But one revelation at a time.
He’s now my favourite of Joyce’s parents.
That’s not a tough competition.
… Dammit, Hank, stop being so reasonable…it’s going to make it so much worse when your wife isn’t. >_>
I really like that he’s not actually 100% OK with the whole thing, but realizes he should be (Because Joyce is, and Becky’s still Becky), so is doing his best to be.
Hank in progress. Kudos to him – and Kudos for him, the chocolate granola bars I mean.
I haven’t seen one of those in years. Do they still make them?
That’s a very good question. My dad liked them, even did a taste test on a plane flight.
He’s…he’s trying, bless his well-meaning old heart. I do wonder what people mean when they say things like that, though, “God’s telling me to _______.” How’s God making his point known? 100% sincere, no snark, I’m just curious how that whole deal works.
Well, based on what friends who grew up in that faith said, it’s sort of the feeling that you get when you’re praying or sometimes you can even hear a little voice. So, something like that, I guess? It seems somewhat similar to guilt or cultural messaging or a conscience for secular folks.
Makes sense. I was raised Christian, but the only kind of feelings I ever had towards God were a vague sort of worry that he was reading my thoughts and finding them sinful.
“God is watching me poop.”
God must be into some weird shit. Erm… pun not intended.
Actually, god is not at all into weird shit. They hate it, but since they’re omniscient they can’t not see it. So yes, whenever people have anal sex, or group sex, or oral sex, god is watching , feeling, and tasting it. And god is disgusted, that’s why it’s forbidden.
And don’t even talk about slugs mating, that’s just horrifying.
i think its just whatever you feel in your heart after praying
…assuming god isnt real and talking to ppl i guess
The idea of an omnipotent, omniescient, omnipresent spirit/entity is pretty flexible. Such an entity choosing to communicate through gentle nudges like that makes a certain amount of sense, especially if for whatever reason It chooses to limit exercises of power to guiding and empowering.
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.
He prays, he has a realization, he attributes it to God.
I remember reading somewhere that supposedly up until medieval times people had a less developed understanding of their own consciousness and would attribute their internal monologue to the literal voice of (a) god telling them what to do.
Julian Jaynes The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind
Fascinating book, but pretty much not taken too seriously. Some of the ideas in it still have credibility, but not the basic thesis.
And it was supposed to have taken place much earlier, ca 1500 BCE and over a fairly long period.
Well I’m not particularly religious myself but from my understanding, people think God is always trying to “speak” to you in subtle ways which can include your emotions and conscience.
He said “How should I react to my daughter’s friend being gay” and suddenly “Why can’t we be friends” popped on the radio. He said he got the message and it changed to “It’s raining men”
“One step at a time, Lord, sheesh!”
this had better be canon ahahaha
It’s a feeling you get when considering certain paths or praying. It’s… well, it’s definitely prone to false positives, but I don’t disbelieve in it, either.
I came from a religious background, but not a “voice in the head” sort of religious background. The way I can explain how “God’s telling me” was taught to me would probably strike you as pretty mundane- it’s sort of like the old joke/story with “I sent you someone in a rowboat, a raft and a helicopter, how many more ‘signs’ do you need?”.
I would assume the decision to listen to what Joyce was saying came at least partly by how she kicked ass at using scriptural bases for what she was trying to get across (back when it was about Dorothy being an atheist). It’s kind of easy-mode to say ‘that was bullshit’, tbh. Arguing from inside the framework takes a lot of effort, and we see here that it paid off in his returning his respect.
Seriously, if he meant it (and I have no reason to say he doesn’t), it’s a rare parent that doesn’t just begrudgingly admit their kid’s old enough to have take seriously, but actually say “I need to listen to you, more.” And I’d say it’s largely because Joyce was ‘speaking the language’.
There are some who expect a literal voice or vision, maybe a dream. But for most of us, it’s akin to conscience, which, if you believe in God, makes sense. Why would God give a sense of, ” this feels wrong,” or “in spite of self-interest, I should…” unless it is meant to help?
<3333
Panel reactions:
Panel 1: Oh, man, Joyce is shook up to the point of stuttering. She’s really scared of this trip. It is such a good thing that Becky is going to be coming along for moral support.
Panel 2: Hank’s trying, but he’s pushing from a point deep back in faith. He’s got his edges up, viewing her queerness as something that takes away from her being a good girl, but also willing to admit that he might not have the right take on it after all and willing to take Joyce’s lead.
Whether it will be enough will depend on a lot of things, but this moment is very optimistic and heart-warming.
Panels 3 and 4: What gives a lot of hope is that he’s very introspective about his faith and his love for his younger daughter and his daughter-like figure trump the bigotry he’s been stewing in. He has been ruminating a lot on Joyce’s defiance, but instead of deciding that she’s “risking her soul”, he decides the problem might be with his intransigence and so decides to trust her. It’s not everything. It probably won’t stop him saying some epically fucked up shit. But it’s a starting point.
Panel 5: Heh, Dina/Becky cuteness gives BSODs to all the Browns.
Also, that Panel 4 Joyce face is way too close to Panel 3 Joyce face here for comfort:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/sweetie/
Her eyes are lidded totally differently. It’s a happy smile, not a stiff rictus of being too emotionally drained to rage or weep properly.
No, the panel 3 face in the phone call is genuinely happy. She’s reconnecting with mom, she’s getting support and comfort where she’s always gotten it and where she wasn’t sure she would this time.
Then it all goes to hell in the next panel. And the chances are good this trip is going to follow the same progression. Not anywhere near as certain as I thought before today, but still likely.
I am very amused that Joyce is the one gleefully pointing out Becky’s gayness in the last panel it reminds me of the early strips of Becky gleefully outing herself to Joyce’s own endless consternation. I can’t remember the last time we’ve gotten such an unreserved smile out of her.
Awww I really like this development! I always appreciate people who are willing to learn, no matter how wrong they might have been before. Doesn’t change all the damage he has caused so far in life (to Joyce’s world view, mostly), but maybe he’s going to learn and change and their relationship can become healthier in the future. They hopefully have a lot of time left to make some better memories.
It’s good to remind ourselves that no one starts out completely aware and enlightened and no one should ever stop learning and trying to better themselves 🙂
I’m wondering how much direct influence he’s had on her worldview thus far. She mostly talks about what opinions her pastor(s) espoused and taught, not her Dad… but he is part of the same church.
Ok – this pretty much demands that Joyce’s mom be a total raving psycho.
Popcorn, anyone?
Maybe that’s the plot twist. Carol’s actually really chill. She knew all along and is disappointed she doesn’t get to put on Becky and Joyce’s wedding anymore.
Not according to what she said on the phone with Joyce, when she called her. She echoed ToeDad’s ignorant words exactly.
Yeah. Carol won’t do anything that she thinks is cruel; my money is on passive aggressive daggers and twisted thinking, like the bit about dying for Joyce. It may be so circumspect that it’s hard for Joyce to explain exactly why it tears her up inside. It’s a really great thing that Becky is there to support her, and hey, maybe even her Dad, too!
Ah but it’s not cruel to do anything you can to save your child’s soul.
Hm, yeah, I did work with one fundie who was all about love and kindness, and yet, she said that if the kid is going to Hell, they should be warned, even though the truth hurts.
We had some surprisingly civil debates about it, inside a religious standpoint. An education for both of us, I’m sure!
I’m not so vain to think that I convinced her; she had a long way to go (for example, she knew self-proclaimed ex-gays in fundie opposite-sex marriages, so she thought that conversion camps worked, omz.) But it would be nice to think that I was one of the many people on her path towards the loving-kindness that she values, vs. her extremely harmful talking points.
In Carol’s defense, there is no way she could have known that saying “I would die for [my child]” would be a trigger to Joyce -I always figured that she’d meant that only in a protective-parental manner, not as any sort of threat -“you are my child, and I want to protect you and keep you safe and happy at all costs” -and, well, I kinda want to believe that MORE now -that she’s going to take the same attitude Hank is -not liking, but tolerating, and eventually (hopefully) moving to acceptance.
Yes, please.
The cheese packs from boxed macaroni are an excellent substitute for salt and butter.
Genius! Will try.
Well, he’s trying.
That actually counts for a lot.
Yay. Ten points for Joyce’s dad. 🙂
And fifteen points for Joyce for being so darn happy in the last panel for Becky & Dina.
+5 Faith in her Church for Joyce 🙂
And +2 Days of freeloading for Becky! Hopefully it’ll be this weekend when Mary pulls the investigation on her bunking in Billie’s room.
“Well, we’re not seeing any evidence of a… what did you say? A ‘perverted vagrant’? Yeah, we can’t find any proof that one of those is living in the dorms. And everybody else in the hall is denying any knowledge of an illegal boarder, too.
However, we HAVE received complaints that you’ve been making transphobic remarks towards one of the residents who DOES live here…”
YES Joyce is smiling!! An honest, BEAMING smile!!! After everything she’s been through, seeing her Dad be so considerate is such a relief for her.
Methinks Dad is going to be much more understanding then Mom. (Going by what she said when Joyce talked to her on the phone… and how she echoed ToeDad’s words)
I know tactlessness is a theme of the story and everything but like, Joyce c’mon, this is literally a “treat him how you would want to be treated” moment. You can go a bit slower. It’s the best way to avoid that “breaking point” the whole comment section is predicting.
Plus Becky’s got her own pace with giving out information. Play the anchor. Being the link between him and these new ideas means understanding him too.
My advice to a pre-written fictional character.
…what was she supposed to do, lie? Call her Becky’s “friend”? That’s doing everyone involved a disservice.
A tremendous benefit of nuking your closet is that nobody has to lie about these kinds of things anymore.
It can also (let me be clear that this is because of the shitty state of our society, not for any intrinsic reason) break things that could be fixed. My sister was homeless until recently after coming out as trans.
Since then, I have gotten my parents (uh, just dad really) following trans healthcare law. On the (I hate the word “correct” when I’m writing like this, but) generally correct side.
My sister has since created a new life for herself and is happy, but there is still no contact between her and my parents. That relationship being an unnecessary loss.
and I certainly blame myself for playing a shitty intermediary role.
It’s like stretching clay. Pull slowly and it stays together, becoming longer. Pull to violently and it will tear and you have two smaller lumps.
But also:
1: you may not value the lost relationship
2: It may work out anyway because all people involved were able to quickly reach the same understanding.
3: I could be not as smart as I think I am, and my personal experience does not define the universe.
(It’s number 3)
Aw. I wasn’t there, and yet, I’m certain it wasn’t your fault! Even if you’d been a perfect middle-child mediator, which is an impossible task, some parents just make themselves of more brittle clay than others do. (Some parents are silly-putty and can do it with hardly any help at all. I wish you and your sister had been luckier in that regard, and I wish I hadn’t beaten this metaphor to death.)
Also, your parents surely said things to her, outside of your info or presence, to cause a break in that connection.
It’s comforting, in a way, to think that you have real control over screwing up other peoples’ relationships. But, you can’t, and it’s on the people in that relationship, not on you.
Rereading your post: Did your parents refuse to take her in when she was homeless? Yikes. Maybe your sister regarded that lost contact as not only necessary, but also desirable. I don’t think I’d want to talk to parents who considered kicking me to the curb, even if I had a really nice sibling named Rowan by my side at the time. It would just hurt too much. I’d keep Rowan, and not talk to the kicker-outers, and nothing that Rowan had said or not said would change my mind about it.
Or, in better words:
It’s hard to see a relationship split between people about whom you care deeply. You said you blamed yourself for having a part in their broken relationship, but my friend, it wasn’t your fault at all.
Even super-awesome mediation skills can’t fix everything. If your parents were willing to contribute to your sister’s homelessness, then their current arrangement could well be the best result that was possible for everyone (unless, of course your parents do a 180 and become trans-supportive, somehow?? which, again, is entirely up to them, and not on you).
I hope that you will forgive yourself soon.
Nah, just say “Dina. She likes dinosaurs” or something and let Becky do what she will. I might be drawing too much from personal experience, having been in Joyce’s position twice and having it go far better myself playing the, I guess not passive role, but the , uh, grounding(?) role.
It might also have gone better because I’d gotten further in developmental psychology studies, or maybe I chose that role because of that. Maybe it went better because of the other people in question (though I highly doubt that, honestly) I don’t know, do what works best for the given situation.
I’m probably just reading too many parallels to my own life.
I’m probably just wrong, too, idk.
Ah, I understand you better now. Looks like, in this particular instance, either choice would’ve worked fine.
From a reading standpoint, I wanted to know how Hank would act when presented with non-straight behaviour — internal discomfort, but not being a jerk about it — which we couldn’t have seen without Joyce happily blurting out her excitement for the Beckasaur.
Well I mean, Becky would’ve happily done it herself (which is part of why I think Joyce should play a more subdued role)
But that would’ve been harder to draw. *cough*
(joking joking joking [it’s true though])
If Joyce actively downplayed their relationship, I think Becky would be hurt.
Not to mention that Becky would probably bring it up on her own (if Hank didn’t ask her), which could make Joyce’s dodge suspicious. Given her prior concerns about the visit, her history of discomfort with deception, and Hank’s probably-more-positive-than-she-expected reaction, it’s not all that surprising that Joyce decided honesty was the best policy.
Yeah, ok I get that. I didn’t really mean to downplay it, more to introduce Dina as a person on her own rather than solely in relation to Becky, but either way I see what you’re saying.
That’s silly. Gay people gonna gay. If she’s gay and doesn’t have a girlfriend that just means she’s probably just makin’ out with chicks willie nilly vanilli live in concert this summer!
Does Becky really strike you as the “take it slow” type?
Absolutely part of the point I was trying to make. Sorry, I’m not a great writer.
Hiding queer people is not tact. Controlling your bigotry is tact.
THIS. Thank you.
All life is progress. Everything that happens today affects you, and as a result the “YOU” that you are when you go to bed tonight is not the exact same “YOU” that went to bed last night (there’s probably a better way to say this but dambed if I can put the words together).
So there may still be hope for Hank and the rest of the Browns yet!!!
Also, I like the acknowledgement that Becky’s not just swanning off and leaving Dina behind without a word. I didn’t think she would anyway, but just good to have a concrete thing to point at after yesterday.
It just wouldn’t have been in character for her to not say goodbye all proper like. She loves her dinosaur girl and has been doing a lot to make sure she doesn’t feel ancillary or boring in their relationship.
Exactly. Becky has her flaws but she’s at least 90% heart by volume, which is wonderful.
What’s the remaining 10%?
Lesbians and dinosaurs.
Impulsivity, and fart jokes.
As low density as fart jokes are, you’d think they’d account for more volume.
THIS is a quality flatus funny, right here.
Fart jokes are really only funny if they start out high density and are allowed to expand.
Yeah she just kinda needed to know if she was actually going before she said her farewells.
So Joyce’s father isn’t a monster. He’s seriously misguided in his beliefs, but I think he is a decent human being at heart. He was the one who came around when Joyce stood up for Dorothy. I’ve suspected that there’s a significance to the fact that he’s the parent who shares Joyce’s giant blue eyes.
Joyce’s mother, on the other hand, might not respond too well to having Becky in her home. After Joyce’s defense of Dorothy, her father responded with respect and affection, and embraced his daughter. Her mother just stood there looking grumpy.
Right now, things are going reasonably smoothly. I suspect this is the calm before the storm.
Huh this is going much better than expected but … This is Willis we’re talking about here the other shoe will drop just not right now
Those that accuse him of mommy issues aren’t entirely wrong, and with Joyce being modeled after the Willis of the past, I think it’s a safe bet that Carol is going to be horrible.
Aw, he’s trying. And not in a passive aggressive “love the sinner, hate the sin” way, but he actually seems to be examining his beliefs and seems to be open to the idea that his earlier way of thinking could be wrong. It’s not perfect, and I’m sure he’ll slip up and say something insensitive at some point, but I’m going to take this as a good sign.
I suppose it’s harder to hold onto bigotry when someone you care about turns out to be one of the “others” you oppose.
That’s usually how it works. It’s a lot easier to hate inhuman monsters you’ll never meet than it is to hate Dave at the coffee shop and his husband Frank the barber. Human faces to the terrible other can often poison bigotry where it breeds for those willing to do the work.
And it seems Hank is at least willing to try. He’ll probably fuck it up along the way in terrible terrible ways, but he’s giving it a college try.
He’s only human, after all. Failure paves the way to success.
Here’s hoping he finishes the road, and doesn’t smash anything important under one of those failures.
Familiarity breeds… well, a variety of things, actually. There’s a Heinlein story, I think, where members of a (fictional) persecuted minority talk about “I’m not worried about my neighbors, and you probably don’t have to worry about your neighbors, but I’m worried about your neighbors…”
Hank is going through a process. He will almost certainly backslide during it. Even without that, he is highly likely to say something that we might feel is terrible out of sheer ignorance. That ignorance does not excuse the mistakes one may make while fumbling forward toward what I like to think of as enlightenment, but lack of malicious intent usually at least means one is educable. Hank has indicated progress on one of the most important steps toward learning: he realizes that he doesn’t already know everything.
Exactly. Hanlon’s Razor: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity (or ignorance).
“Bigotry Poison”! That seems like the sticker on Woody Guthrie’s guitar: This machine kills fascis[m].
I like the parental upgrade from the array we’ve seen lately 😀
Phew, at least Joyce and Becky kinda have someone in their corner. Like everyone else, I’m bracing for Mom, though. And anyone else from home they might run into over the weekend.
The wall got all the Curry.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who fixated on that.
I wonder how mom feels, though…
Soft around the middle, probably slightly loose skin but for the most part firm. Her chin looks like it could smash granite though so that’s probably mostly bone. She’s got a decent figure for a lady her age and a
Sizeable bust. All in all she probably feels fine.diello did ask.
You, sir, have just made my evening.
Huge tracts of land, eh?
Best reply I could have asked for!
Humility goes a long way…
hes trying very hard and thats important
Hank, Hank I think I love you. Help, there’s no hope for me.
He’s a married man, Brumagem! Sheesh!
I like how Joyce’s Father is reacting, after being set in his ways for so long, it sets a nice tone that maybe he’s matured enough to realize that his daughter can teach him now. I can only hope that David’s journey included family that was as understanding and open enough to learn to accept that there are other beliefs than their own that are just as valid and deserve to be respected instead of reviled as “Evil.” You don’t have to live as others do to respect their lifestyle makes them happy, and respect that instead of merely “tolerate” them. The word “Tolerance” can be quite offensive when applied to others when used in that way.
Thanks David!
At least he’s trying. So, good for him! Change is hard. Trying to change is the first step if you think you’re doing wrong.
He is indeed trying. Becky is not going to make that easy. Which can be both good and bad. Good because it presses him to think on it rather than try to pretend it doesn’t exist, bad because, well, pushing too hard can cause a push back. With Joyce caught in the middle.
Becky is not going to take things slow, or otherwise restrain her native exuberance for the sake of coddling bigotry, but in the long run I think that actually will make the whole process easier. Let him see that her feelings come from a place of love and joy, that this relationship is as healthy for both Becky and Dina as the best marriage anyone could hope for (conveniently, Joyce was arguing over scripture relevant to that point not two hours ago, it’s likely still fresh in her mind), and most of all that the whole situation is a matter of honesty and integrity rather than corruption or deceit. Yank off the bandaid.
I couldn’t smile any harder if I tried… shoot, who am I kidding, yeah I can and I will.
I also really want to applaud Joyce here. She’s had a hard time fully accepting Becky being with Dina, but that giant happy smile at the end seeing them say their goodbyes shows just how far she’s come and how completely she accepts them and Becky.
That’s a “Yay, my dad’s a much better person than I expected him to be, maybe this visit won’t be as painful as expected, my best friend is happy, everything’s coming up Joyce” grin
Not looking forward to when things inevitably stop coming up Joyce 🙁
I’m happy that Becky’s openness has helped Joyce’s faith in her father
Becky is happy! And her parents may not ruin that! YAY HAPPY JOYCE MODE ENGAGED. ALL ABOARD, THIS TRAIN IS HEADED FOR TRIANGLE-SMILE STATION.
Can’t wait for all the passive agressions and then joyce’s mom
Oh I can definitely wait for Joyce’s mom haha
… Man, that was… Genuinely touching for a moment there. I thought Joyce was going to tear up and hug her Dad. Y’know, maybe this ain’t gonna be so bad, after all…
Huh, that was actually surprisingly nice and tolerant of Joyce’s fundie father… Willis… you’re not lulling us into a false sense of security just to make this blow up even bigger later on are you? *suspicious stare*
I think Joyce got some of her outlook from her dad. 🙂
(Also loving that genuine smile in the last panels!)
So you’re saying Becky did NOT approach Hank with the malicious intent to ruin Joyce’s life, AND she’s saying goodbye to Dina before leaving??
Why, it’s almost as if a lot of commenters two days ago were completely full of shit!
No, that’s unpossible. Clearly it was them doing the sober analysis of Becky’s true character and us uppity queerfolk with our high-falutin’ emotions who were too wrapped up in our ironclad love for the character to see the truth.
Oh please, I am gay and was genuinely worried Becky was gonna run off without saying goodbye to Dina. Willis made her charachter very impulsive, and she was visually upset by Joyce and Dorothy having pretended to be wives.. Plus Dina was lookin around with Walky and Dorothy seemingly unsure where Becky went. It’s not an unreasonable fear. I’m glad she is saying goodbye.
Cerberus, Cizak, you guys are awesome.
May you know the particular righteous joy of having told them so. 🙂
That’s the nicest thing anyone’s ever said to me on the internet.
This is absolutely the calm before the storm.
https://33.media.tumblr.com/fee1b287d5a36abbbd097d6c4e074713/tumblr_inline_o0v540mTP81s79kl4_500.gif
Hank is his daughter’s father. I love how much you can see their similarities in this strip, and I don’t only mean the eyes. The fourth panel…. awwwwwwww.
It’s also a very reasonable attitude. “I don’t need to understand it in order to act like a decent human being. It is enough for me that YOU do.” What did Dorothy say about believing in people of her choosing?
Well, gonna just say it: Pleasant surprise.
Welp. So this is Joyce’s dad reacting. Guess the hellfire and brimstone will come from Mommy Dearest.
“Dina likes dinosaurs and teaches Becky about evolution. She is just like an adorable little Chick track villain who like mouth-smooches.”
“Nod and smile… nod and smile”
I really don’t like how criticizing Becky makes you a homophobe in the comments. People have different experiences, and comparing them to Becky’s will garner different results and reactions. Most of the gay/trans people I know (I hesitate to use the q word because a good lot of the lgbt community sees it as a slur) avoid situations like this. Becky charges into them headlong. While It worked out this time for her (which I’m happy about!) there have been times where her brashness has worked against her. And I don’t think I’m a bigot or full of it when I point that out, or express frustration with her bold attitude. I don’t like brash characters in general, but apparently criticizing this is one makes you a shitlord
Do you…actually not see how blaming a lesbian for existing near a homophobe is fucked up, or?
That’s the thing. any criticism is labeled as “blaming a lesbian for existing”. Literally one of the arguments i posed two days ago was “this situation puts BECKY at risk, and is probably a bad idea.” I’m not saying it’s her fault that she experiences homophobia. But charging into a potentially homophobic situation, banking on Hank’s good faith (which paid off) isn’t the best idea.
You have the right to exist anywhere regardless of who you are. But knowingly going into situations where bigots can harm you is a crap idea. For example, when her dad came to the school, she HID. Because he could do serious emotional harm (and later, he revealed he was willing to do physical harm). Avoiding him, rather than confronting him was the smarter move. When he eventually caught her, he forced her into his car and tried to fucking kidnap her, with her only escaping by the efforts of others. None of that was her fault.
So, when this situation arises, albeit a much less dramatic one than the last, I think avoiding Joyce’s dad is the smarter option. But she doesn’t, and I disagree with that choice.
I’m sure Becky, as a character, craves and needs this emotional support, and I’m happy her gamble is paying off. But I don’t think it’s fucked up for me to say she shouldn’t have taken that chance.
It shouldn’t BE a chance, I realize this. But it was, and she took it, and I didn’t agree with it. I don’t think that makes me a villain.
But…that’s what you’re doing right now. You may be couching it in concern for her wellbeing, but you’re still putting the onus on Becky to refrain from existing near a potential homophobe rather than the homophobe not being homophobic. It’s a very important distinction, you see.
I see what you’re saying. But the thing is that I’m looking at these figures as characters, not people. I don’t criticize the homophobes in this story because they’re meant to be the antagonists. The bad guys. I don’t need to criticize their moral behaviors or motivations because they’re much more flat in this comic (that being, most of them are blinded by their religion to take their children’s feelings into account and make correct ethical choices.) We know the score, they’re bad for reasons x y and z, and the chances of them changing over the course of the comic isn’t very high (at least, I don’t think so. Hank seems to be proving me wrong but time will tell).
Becky is a character we’re meant to be rooting for, and is one I feel very mixed on. In half of her appearances she makes me laugh the most, and her understanding of Dina makes me like her more. Other times, I feel frustrated with her because I feel her choices put herself or others in harms way, or sometimes she may just irk me. Regardless, I criticize her more because she’s a more sympathetic character, so seeing her flaws shine through can be frustrating.
These are characters. No gay people I know would act this way around potential threats, especially when others are at risk as well, because it’s a terrible idea. If Hank were more of a jerk, he could make efforts to get Becky kicked out of the dorm she’s living in. But she didn’t think of this, so I get frustrated, because she’s a character I want to root for.
When a villain does a bad thing, it’s expected. Frustrating, but expected. When a main character makes a mistake that can harm the group, it cuts deeper. So it’s more worth criticizing. There have been a million comments saying “oh good job Hank for not being a dick” or “don’t be homophobic like we expect you to Hank” but they ultimately mean nothing because that’s where all of our minds are at.
I think the bottom line is that I’m looking at this from a narrative-driven perspective, whereas others are seeing a lot of themselves in Becky, so it looks like my criticism reflects the plight of real people. I think this difference in viewing the comic is ultimately what creates the disconnect, and makes people angry at each other in the comments. At least, that’s my theory. Maybe I’m just totally out of touch and wrong, and if that’s the case I’m sorry. I’m not infallible.
I wanted to cite that I was on Carla’s side in the last little arc, since the situations are somewhat similar but a bit different at the same time, but then, those comments got deleted. So who knows, maybe there was legitimate bile in there and my comments look similar to their’s. I hope that’s not the case.
Dude, if a teenager making life choices that you “disagree” with is all it takes for you to stop being on her side, perhaps consider that you weren’t really on her side to begin with.
I mean, I don’t even know what else to tell you.
Becky is possibly older than I at this point in the comic, and I never said I wasn’t on her side, just that I disagreed with an action she performed. When did I ever even say I would take Hank’s side if things went wrong?
Regardless, it’s pretty clear that it’s really not worth arguing about. You’re not going to change your mind, and neither am I. So, have a good night I guess?
I guess I feel like Becky, just by existing, is at risk. so when she takes risks, she does them because there’s no possible way she could be any more at risk. she takes calculated risks based off her intuition, I feel like – and they pay off.
example: with her dad. Her dad brought a gun to school. She took the risk of being alone with him to protect countless other people, and it paid off because the people behind her were in a good place to get help and come after her to rescue her. A lot of those were variables she couldn’t control, but she made the best decision with the information she had.
example: right now, with Mr. Brown. Going out and telling a cute story about Joyce is actually a really good way to forcibly remind him that, hey, she’s still the kid she remembered, as well as being a good icebreaker. Doing it at campus is a safe zone where she can get away if she still needs to, and where she has friends (and a girlfriend!) who can comfort her afterwards if she needs comforting. She’s being human, and she’s being human in a way that is instantly relatable.
example: after being kicked out of college for being a lesbian she goes to Joyce. Joyce is literally her best friend, and she goes to a secular college. Like, even if Joyce did reject her, there would probably still be resources at this campus? And Joyce had spent the last month dating a gay man that she knew was gay. Joyce was literally the best of all possible options, I think, because if Becky’s family is anything like her dad then that’s not an option.
last month. i have no clue how long joyce was dating ethan. wow.
If you don’t view the characters as people and if you don’t criticize villains, but you do criticize “good characters” i.e. more marginalized group members for “messing up” according to your standards, how do you think that comes off externally to individuals who share personal traits and life experiences with the characters?
Do you think they understand that you are doing an odd disconnected, emotionless literary analysis? Or would it just come off as victim-blaming tripe by someone who never calls out characters of power who act wrongly?
Yes, and that’s the shitty thing about this world. You have to be aware of the fact that threats exist all around you. They shouldn’t but they do and a person, any person, is well advised to be cautious and not provoke confrontations.
In a perfect world, no-one would need to automatically think this and have these considerations but this isn’t a perfect world.
Well, “well advised to be cautious and not prove confrontations” perhaps so, but thank God that some people aren’t well advised AND some go ahead anyway, (for reasons like “I’ve standsd all I can stands and I can’t stands no more”). The world is a better place for them and would be a poorer place without them. (Notwithstanding BenRG that I almost always agree with you and have learned from you.)
True. But when we say an individual or a character should be blamed for said negative reality when they fail to show it they’re fear, that becomes victim-blaming in the same way as when we shift from going “rape culture is real, sadly, the incidences of rape are very high” to “therefore what were you thinking going out at night/wearing that dress/getting drunk”.
Society being very transphobic does not mean it is my fault when I go out looking like myself or being affectionate with loved ones in public or when I try and work in my job without hating myself.
Society and people being homophobic does not mean it is Becky’s fault that Toedad went happy fun gun times on her or if Hank or Carol had a big freak out about her.
When we demand those impacted by our societal inequality be the ones to prevent their own victimizations, we are victim-blaming and it isn’t okay.
We can worry about them. We can say that we would not be able to take that risk like them. But when we say that they are being an “idiot” or “how could they not know better” a line has been crossed.
Yes.
This took me a bit to understand, so I think I understand why some folks dont, even here, but once I did get it, it became so obvious to me that I’m impatient for others to grok it, too. There’s a time and place and mode for discussing strategy and tactics, but it’s not when you can’t focus the structure of the situation or the goal; it’s NOT after saying “of course homo, trans, etc. Phobia is bad, BUT it’s important not to be, X,Y,Z” because that just distracts from the core fact that people are still treated Wrong BECAUSE they exist. There IS NO “BUT” after eliminate homophobia, eliminate transphobia, eliminate all the phobias. That stands by itself at the core of things. Then and only then we can talk about how much progress there’s been and not been and opportunities and dangers and tactics and all of that. And a lot of nice, decent people are going to be made uncomfortable before we Reach the Promised Land.
(End rant; post comment; sign off)
Whoops, I might have tapped that yesterday (when I said it would’ve been wiser if Joyce and Becky had informed her folks in a planned-out way). Was my foot all up in my mouth? I apologize for any distress I caused.
Dude- Hank could have been terrible, but he was never going to be Toedad level of awful. So it was a more reasonable gamble then her walking up to bio dad. For one thing he doesn’t have a gun on him. He didn’t come and yank Joyce out of college immediately due to ‘demonic influences’ (either she being them or subject to them). It was a gamble sure. For one thing. Even if it wasn’t a gamble on her life- it was a gamble on further rejection and harsh, awful words from someone she probably called ‘Uncle Hank’ as a kid and would hurt like hell if it happened. But when you’re LGBT+ almost /everything/ you do when out of the closet (or even not at points) can be a gamble. That doesn’t mean you can always stop living or should stop trying. Becky talking to Hank is inevitable. It might have been ripping the bandaid.
People also react badly because yes, it is blaming the victim like it or not. Random example: some people could say it is ‘unwise’ for instance to be ‘out’ in any way while living in a small bible belt town for instance. For me though, even while deep in the UK and in the closet- it takes guts- guts I don’t personally have. And even if it ends badly for them, it still took guts- and it wasn’t their fault if anything happens, and never will be. They were brave. And it’s sad that bravery is required.
See, escalated it to the point where it looks like I said that gay people should stay in the closet out of fear, which is not what I said at all. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying a character should pick their battles, since that’s what every person in the lgbt community does.
I think that talking to Hank now, especially like a week after the Toedad incident, is unreasonable and weirdly optimistic given what had just happened. Regardless of the outcome, it wouldn’t be Becky’s fault since Joyce’s dad would obviously be the aggressor. But homophobes and zealots is probably the best call, in most cases. I don’t think it’s wrong to languish over a character making a choice that you wouldn’t have made in the same scenario. Especially since Becky is a character, not a person.
Maybe having just become practically an orphan and him being almost like her second dad has something to do with it, more than “unreasonable optimism”…
like i said, Hank could easily put in the effort to add “homeless” to that list. so confronting him, i think, is weirdly optimistic, giving that her first dad wasn’t a great help
By your logic Becky should have just entirely cut ties with everyone she knew and vanished into homelessness. Because coming to Joyce was a HELL of a risk dude.
Emily-
She was prepared to do that. Her Plan A for escaping from Toedad the second time before seeing Amazi-girl was to wait for an opening where no one else would be at risk and then go off under a bridge somewhere and never contact anyone she cared about again so they wouldn’t be put at risk.
Yeah, that just makes me more frustrated with their rationale. Like in order for queer people to NOT put people close to them at risk from being tangentially affected by bigotry directed at them they’d basically just have to quietly disappear off the face of the earth.
Very probably; furthermore, the timing of Becky’s actions makes me think that, on a certain level, she needed to be part of a family and enjoy that emotional intimacy again. That’s why she chose that moment – to offer some sisterly teasing directed at Joyce.
I’ll say something else: I find it highly unlikely that Becky is capable of seeing Hank Brown as a potential risk. Personally, if I had a criticism of what she did in that strip, it would be that it might have been better if they’d arranged for Joyce to sound out her father first, if only to sweep away the last of any uncertainty. Still, as I have posted before: Eighteen-year-olds don’t think like that.
Hell, after her own father, I’m astounded that Becky is capable of seeing Mr. Brown as anything other than an existential threat. If I read yesterday’s strip right, she was terrified of rejection in that first panel and even before that she hid until she saw that at least his first interaction with Joyce seemed friendly and safe.
avoiding* homophobes and zealots
Either way, I’m out. Maybe I’m out of touch and wrong! And I’m sorry if I offended anyone. I usually try to avoid internet fights but this one really sucked me in and got to me. Good night everyone.
“I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying a character should pick their battles, since that’s what every person in the lgbt community does.”
There’s not… up until the point you said “should”.
Do queer people pick their battles? All the time. Are things scary and gross and awful? Indubitably. Do queer people sometimes choose to swallow their pride and dignity and ride something out because it feels too unsafe for them to stand up for themselves? Totes.
Do we have to make non-ideal choices simply to survive? Yeppers. And no one should blame someone having to do that, because you gotta do what you gotta do to survive and the person is probably already beating themselves up enough. Bob knows I was when I recloseted myself to avoid homelessness.
But when we make that a “should”, when we say that that is what we expect from queer individuals. That a queer individual should “know better” than to take risks. That they are doing something “wrong” by not hiding and remaining fearful?
That is not okay. That is saying to every person who’s been in that space, oh hey, not only are you making hard choices you find unbearable and dehumanizing for your survival, but you should be doing that. That is right. That is proper. And you really are the only one to blame when it all falls apart on you.
It’s reinforcing those awful negative realities by punishing anyone who takes the risks to improve things. And believe me, Becky has taken said risks in universe. She is homeless. Familyless. Communityless.
And that is so important that she did so, even though it has cost her. Asking her to hide that away now is to do a disservice to that risk and that cost. And I can confirm that for those who’ve made a similar choice, having people say, that’s stupid, that’s wrong, doesn’t really feel good, but it does feel familiar.
“Should” is a highly problematic word.
That makes sense that Russ’s words could land as “it’s right and proper to hide”. Until you pointed out this interpretation, I thought Russ meant that hiding might be adaptive to the sucky environment, perhaps self-protective or clever/tricksy or something, and that he wanted Becky to do what she could to increase her safety amid the potential bigots (since she can’t make them stop being bigots). That, in his own risk/benefit analysis, he’d have put even more weight on safety than Becky tends to. (Or not, Russ left and I’m not in Russ’s head.) I think/hope Russ didn’t intend to communicate that it’s right/proper that Becky or others should ever have to weigh family vs safety, or make painful choices about it, or that they should be blamed when things go wrong, etc, as that would indeed be super gross.
Anyway. I’m very glad you explained how that kind of thing sounds to a person who is going through it or has survived it! Yikes. I do not want to imply things like that ever.
Is there a better way to say that one safety strategy is a sadly wise choice, compared to another? (I ask because I’m likely to work with marginalized people in crisis someday, and I’d prefer to avoid the taste of my foot when it can hurt them the most!) I definitely don’t want to victim-blame, but saying it’s all up to some bigot would disempower and harm my future-clients. What’s a more empowering approach, so that my future-clients can make clever plans within their own awful situations?
Oops, I hadnt refreshed to see that this thread continues below. My interpretation of Russ’s words is moot, but my question stands for how to keep my foot out of my mouth regarding strategy-talk.
@Leorale, sounds to me like you’re on the path to wisdom (but take that for what it’s worth from someone pretty aware of their own limits).
Of course I would never say should in the tense “gay people should hide because it’s their place”, but rather, “gay people should pick their battles, because sometimes they get attacked and murdered and reducing that risk is a good thing”. Unfortunately I couldn’t think of a better word than “should”. Despite should sounding like a dirty word, it’s pretty noncommittal compared to other turns of phrase, like “have to” and “all lgbt people do x” because those are even more absolute, and I can’t speak for everyone and their experiences. Should was a useful word since it applies a general, but soft rule.
I do understand that it can be taken the wrong way though, and I want to make it clear that that wasn’t what I was going for.
Not to say that I’m applying rules or anything like that. I say soft rule as a synonym for guideline or general wisdom: avoid bigots. Thought I’d clarify that as well in case that got misconstrued as well
@ Russ: the problem is that it isn’t possible. Gay people can’t just go to a safe bigot-less paradise and live there happily. That’s not an option, there’s no place like that.
Avoiding or confronting a particular bigot is a tense choice EVERY TIME, and picking avoidance every time IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY EITHER. I mean, for someone in specific circumstances it might be the best option, but as a general guideline it ALSO SUCKS.
Gay people goals and priorities include:
– physical safety and physical comfort;
– contact with loved ones;
– fitting in with a community;
– self-respect;
– self-confidence;
– freedom to express affection in public;
– freedom to express their opinions;
etc etc etc
Some of those goals require avoiding bigots. Some of those goals require confronting bigots. Every person puts together those priorities for themselves, and every person makes those intensely personal decisions in each case for themselves.
Had Becky explicitly stated her goals and priorities here for the audience, yes, this would have been a discussion of tactics in achieving them.
But she hasn’t, and in the absence of definite knowledge the reasonable assumption is that she knows what she’s doing (better than us, since she’s the one who’s known these people from early childhood). And with that assumption, any criticism of her actions is a criticism of her priorities.
And that’s where the suck kicks in. Because you are not Becky, you are not in her situation. You have NO RIGHT to make the call there. Even if you were in a situation similar to hers, it’s still not the exact same one. She has a right to her own decisions and priorities, and she has a right to want to nuke closets and rip off bandaids over treading softly and holding on to a semblance of housing above all.
This is not a discussion of tactics. This is a discussion of goals. Important distinction.
Let’s take the second paragraph.
Becky is reckless, probably foolishly so. These are traits which, in a male character, are usually admired. In English cultural terms, she’d be a bit of a lad. Yet, here there are a trickle of commenters saying, “oh, Becky doesn’t want to do that.Oh, risky.” Well, duh. I’ve known any number of “lads” – hell, I’ve been there myself – who’ve done absolutely stupendously idiotic things, yet they’re admired for it. IRL terms, there are very good reasons why (male) motorcyclists can’t get insurance when they’re under 25. Blokes under 25 seem to have absolutely no idea of danger or fear, and they’re lauded when they commit such acts. Yes, I realise that such acts are guarded within strict cultural barriers, but these barriers have proven to be more and useless.
But when a woman steps that line, blimey o’reilly. You’d’ve thought the earth was split asunder.
Even in DOA terms, Joe is equally as reckless imo, yet he does not attract nearly same amount of approbation for the sheer volume of girls he’s (apparently) shagging. Yes, he does do protection but he also drinks. Remembering to use protection when you’re both drunk?
It is well known that Willis likes to push the envelope on these things, so he’s created a female lesbian character who is reckless, who drives the plot forward. Nanny-tut her all you want, but I think she’s wonderful.
Go get’em Becky, and damn the consequences.
But… her existing near people, her refusing to hide something that she feels is a hugely important part of herself IS what provokes them. She shouldn’t have to hide to be safe. What she’s doing is brave -foolish, maybe, but brave, because she KNOWS just how much risk she’s putting herself in -having already been directly confronted with -and having had her life uprooted because of -some incredibly terrible things.
I’ll admit, I’m biased here -partly because I do the something similar. I’ve been raped. I’ve been sexually assaulted. I’ve been harassed -and I’m counting those things separately because they’ve HAPPENED separately. I am aware that, “as a woman”, going places on my own and/or after dark isn’t necessarily wise -and there are places I WILL NOT go in those conditions because it is simply too dangerous. But I refuse to miss out on living my life simply because there are people who want to hurt me for who I am, for what I appear to be, for what that means to them. I get a huge -and necessary -mental and emotional boost from, say, going dancing, or walking around on my own and feeling unafraid and independent, or even just sitting under a tree and watching the moon -and the risk of NOT getting those boosts is far more dangerous and terrifying than the threat of getting attacked (again). I’m sick of hiding and being afraid -and the more I make a point of doing neither, the more people are forced to think about how sad it is that so many people have to choose which way they’re going to risk their own well-being.
i dont think becky shouldve avoided talking to hank at all. i just thought joyce shouldve been allowed to talk to him and settle a little bit first. she was appearently planning to follow so joyce wouldve asked her dad if it was okay and good stuff wouldve happened. i dont think theres anything wrong with becky hoping that hank would be okay with her following and her being a lesbian and all that stuff. thats good. at the moment though, i just wanted joyce to be able to talk to her dad and feel comfortable with him, because of all the tings that have happened and she was probably doubting him, alone before they wouldnt get to be alone anymore. yes, i certainly can see that it turned out well, and i wasnt opposed to the idea of it turning out well. as i said, at the moment i just wanted them to get to talk alone a bit. but i was still labeled a victim blamer and probably a homophobe too
I did NOT label you a homophobe, I was referring to Hank’s possible homophobia as being why it was apparently so awful that Becky revealed herself to him. For somebody who kept griping at me about putting words in your mouth, you’re doing a hell of a job putting words in mine.
I obviously misunderstood why you thought it was so awful that Becky revealed herself, but I didn’t think you were homophobe. I just thought you were like other commenters who thought Becky should have stayed hidden because she would have made Joyce’s dad uncomfortable. If I apologize for misunderstanding why you were upset, will you stop thinking I was calling you a homophobe?
There’s a lot here to unpack, but I’d like to address one thing that I’ve seen come up a lot of late. And that is really hypersensitive whiny complaints about how everyone views you as a homophobe if you dare say anything about Saint Becky.
And since this argument has been made, verbatim, a lot, I feel it is important to address the central fear in it.
So first, let me assure you that you are not a villain. You are not some evil scary homophobe who actively hates gay people and wants their lives to be worse. Hell, you may even be queer yourself or intend yourself to be an awesome ally. And no one is viewing you as a big scary not-good person who is actively trying to hurt anyone.
We do not think you are trying to do something wrong.
So with that said, let’s address a few things.
First up, if you ever catch yourself making an argument that you can’t say anything about minority group member X without it being taken as being Y-ist, then you are probably being Y-ist.
Sorry, but that’s going to be true, 100% of the time. There’s no real situation where you can’t make a well-reasoned, cogent, and non-informed-by-bigotry observation about someone who is a minority group member, so if you feel you can’t say “anything” without getting mobbed about it, then what you are saying is probably messed up in ways you’re not actively aware of.
And that’s the key part:
“not actively aware of”.
So let’s take institutional homophobia. Our society is set up in ways that are inherently unequal to queer individuals versus straight individuals. And this defines the normal that all of us float inside of. It is perfectly normal to view a queer couple as less faithful or less worthy of praise or attention as a straight couple. To view a queer display of affection more negatively than one which is more normative. To hold queer individuals to higher standards of behavior and expectations. To view queer accomplishments more negatively. And to demand that queer individuals be hyper-aware and be responsible for the negative actions or opinions of the dominant group.
This is normal. This is what we’ve always known. This is something we perpetuate every day without thinking about it, even if we are queer ourselves.
This is hard to get rid of.
Really hard, because to go against it is to deliberately go against what is “normal”, what feels “natural” and make a lot of effort that might not always work.
So does the flood of anti-Becky backlash fit under this category?
Yes.
We can even measure it in the way that relatively neutral actions by Becky are perceived versus genuinely messed up actions by other characters. We can see it in the complaints that are quickly disproven by the narrative. We can see it in how quickly commenters forget and overlook her positive traits. We can see it in the flood of victim-blaming that ensues when Becky is anywhere in the proximity of a homophobe (and sorry, but yes, blaming Becky for another person’s potential homophobia is just as much victim-blaming as arguing that Carla shouldn’t have been antagonizing Mary if she didn’t want to experience that level of transphobia or arguing that a sexual assault victim shouldn’t have been wearing that outfit when going out last night. Any time you blame a marginalized person for how someone else may take it, you are minimizing the wrong-doing of the actual transgressor and placing an unreasonable expectation on the victim of the transgression and that is like fire on the skin for those who’ve been similarly victimized).
We can show that this is a thing that exists and exists in our comment thread.
And those who are complicit in that are not bad people. They are not awful homophobes. They are not doing anything actively wrong.
But together, they add up to that violent reminder of institutional oppression. Together they send a message to people who’ve been through those life experiences that they did something wrong when it all went bad. That the people around them would agree with those who blamed them when stuff went wrong. That they did and are something wrong they need to make up for.
That thread a couple of days ago? That made me legitimately scared in a way I haven’t been in a while even though I knew I was safely at home and I was having loved ones come over this weekend to look forward to. Because it was evocative of a time that was really awful for me.
And I guarantee no one who contributed to that meant for that sort of thing to happen and I don’t feel like any one member should feel responsible for something that is at the end of the day “my shit”. But it is worth noting that these little inequalities can build to much longer communications of “this is not safe”, “you are not valued” than any one person means.
It’s part of our normal and it shouldn’t be.
So for all those scared that you can’t say “anything”, geeze, well? Maybe you should take an extra second and sit with things because that unsettled feeling is saying something very important about something that is so subtle and so very very normal.
Very, very true.
People like Becky face discrimination and homophobia all the time. If we want to discuss their actions we have to realize that the homophobia they face is part of the package. Not because it should be but because it is.
Like I said earlier, at this point I’m trying to distance myself from this thread because, as easy as it is to get sucked into this argument for me, it’s ultimately not worth the effort for what anyone gets out of it. However, I read all of your replies and I feel that not answering would make it as if I’m ignoring what you have to say.
A lot of the people who are against what I’m saying scale up the stakes to make my stance look worse. My entire platform is: I don’t think Becky should have gone in there. In my opinion, Becky made a poor choice.
At this point, people like to upscale, and say that my words reflect an underlying belief that Becky (or even lgbt people as a whole) should keep their heads down in most, if not all situations. That couldn’t be further from the truth.
If not that, then it’s stated that my words, in combination with everyone else’s criticism, accumulate as another example of how so many people being complicate in Becky’s suffering serves as a model for the quiet, accepting bigotry that society often displays towards gay people when they want to remain “neutral”. And, this may be true, I can’t deny that. But I don’t think pointing towards a mass of arguments and saying that its problematic as a whole should be a tool used to silence those who have legitimate things to say. I believe that each person’s ideas on the matter should be viewed individually, rather than lumped together and judged in a mass of mutual assumptions.
I don’t need to be told that I’m not a homophobe, or not a bad person. As a whole, everyone is somewhat both of those things, and it takes effort and awareness to ensure that you don’t fall into the traps society has ingrained in you. Unfortunately, it’s come to the point that someone making a legitimate claim in a grey area such as this, is assumed to be falling into this trap, without really taking into count what they’re saying. Rather than breaking it down, we deal in absolutes, and make hard rules where there really can’t be any, since every situation is different.
I also really don’t like the comparison between this and sexual assault, especially since a lot of the examples people give is the “what she’s wearing” example. Regardless of the scenario, no one deserves, earns, or walks into being assaulted in that way. Frankly, the circumstances in this case of a possible bigot, and someone being attacked in that manner are not the same, at all. And trying to draw similarities between them in order to prove how one attitude towards victims should be applied towards another, and it just doesn’t line up. The only real equivalent is citing a scenario where someone walks up and greets someone they know is a potential rapist, which is a dumb hypothetical equivalent that is just not worth entertaining.
Fact of the matter is, some characters here are set pieces, some of them have actual depth. Characters like Toedad and Hank really only exist to effect our mains, and provide internal and external conflict for them. Toedad is one-dimensional, and I don’t really feel the need to criticize him and characters who serve simile purposes, because how the characters we care about act is far more interesting. I’ve had complaints and misgivings about every character thus far, but for some reason, Becky is the most polarizing, with some people damning her, some people singing her praises, and a lot of people not being able to separate criticism of someone’s actions, and thinning that the character is a bad person entirely.
This thread’s general consensuses aren’t even to be really trusted. Why is Danny, a victim of abuse, a running joke for being a shitty and bad failure of a person? I don’t know, I think he’s alright, if a bit awkward. It’s basically turned into a vitriol-powered mess, where people who see similarities between characters and people they know (or themselves) and they get defensive.
And, I’m guilty of it too. After all, why wouldn’t you hide from people who you know wouldn’t understand. I do it, and a lot of my friends do it. Some of us don’t even try to question our identities in fear of what we’ll find and have to explain later, because the consequences can be dire. Hell, maybe I’m even just jealous of Becky for being brave in this instance.
I can respect that last part, because I’m jealous of Becky’s bravery too. Just as much as Carla’s not giving a fuck. And I like that. Cause I do it with my students to. I envy that their lives will be less fraught, less difficult, less homophobic and transphobic.
That envy warms me because it’s a sign that the activism right now that I so frequently throw myself into is working. Things are improving. And in the future, it may no longer be a point of concern to see a young queer kid interacting with a middle-aged Christian male.
I’m happy you’re a teacher.
So am I. This exchange warms my heart. Thank you both! ^_^
@Russ. in response to your long post @ 3:55 — a tactical suggestion, really, no snark intended. If you find people like escalating on you you and lumping you with others and not listening to in the spirit it was made, perhaps because you are not clearly and explicitly making clear and explicit that you are talking tactics in an absolutely intolerable situation which is, as a matter of fact, normalized today. And, perhaps be extra careful about discussing tactics which could perhaps seem patronizing to people who live in the acid bath of phobia.
Sorry for the typos. I’ll assume that the words intended are decipherable.
I spent many paragraph qualifying what I meant and under what conditions. If the message still doesn’t come through clearly then it’s really not my fault at that point.
And I’m not assigning fault, it’s a suggestion that I hope might help communication between good and smart folks–because I’ve actually been impressed how the disagreement has been carried on at such a high plane, both intellectually and emotionally. Serious, I couldn’t hold my own here. It might be that the positions are irreconcillable, ultimately. It happens.
Cerberus: Wow: brava!
(somewhat against my better judgment to be engaging at all, but here goes:)
So here’s a thing I have against Becky:
She flat-out admits to the face of Joyce, her supposed best friend since childhood, that she enjoys provoking her, making her uncomfortable, so as to be entertained by her reactions. And does it. A lot.
One of my brothers does that **** too – “I’m bored, so I’m going to amuse myself by poking someone and watching them jump and make faces” – and I’m reasonably certain that he’s not gay.
I don’t like that sort of behavior in anyone. Not in “friends”, not in family, not in fictional characters. I don’t feel it’s funny, or endearing, or a positive way of signaling that one is included in a social group.
Does that make me unconsciously Y-ist, in a way I’m not actively aware of? Or does it just mean I don’t like people who like to troll their “friends”?
This, like her attacks on/rivalry with Dorothy, seems like a valid thing to dislike about her. OTOH, this is an established behavior since before the start of the strip and Joyce remains her best friend, so it doesn’t really seem like it bothers Joyce as much as your brother doing it bothers you.
I get the impression that Joyce didn’t have a very wide field to choose from, and found Becky’s other qualities (and the need to maintain her own self-image as a good, outgoing, charitable and friendly person) worth enduring the constant… let’s be kind and call it teasing. Heck, she may not even have the context (until now?) to realize that’s unusual, not simply part of “having a friend.”
(I hear so many awful stories RL, some on this very comments section, that end with “… you mean that’s not normal?”)
Perhaps it’s actually part of what she likes about Becky, not some horrible thing she tolerates because she’s nice and can’t find other friends. Or at least it doesn’t really bother her.
It’s certainly a thing that could be really irritating and a serious flaw if applied where it’s not wanted, but I’m not at all sure we’re supposed to think Joyce sees it that way.
Yes, and not to defend it, but I have seen variations on that behavior, some is egregious, some is more benign between sibs/friend, IF dubious nonetheless. I’ve had friends who we’ve razed each other sort of like that, but not to really stick a pin in, but as a game that we both played. I’m done with it, but. And Becky has dimensions: she doesn’t do that with Dina. I’m willing to bet that its going to be effaced in her interactions with Joyce.
That’s true, she doesn’t do it with Dina. I wonder why, what the difference is.
The big difference between the two is the fact that it would likely either get no reaction, or genuinely hurt Dina, neither of which is the case with Joyce.
That is indeed a genuine fault on her part. Thank you.
You are welcome, and thank you.
Look, I’m not saying trying makes it okay to be that kind fundie christian… but, you know, points for at least trying.
D’awww! I like her dad
Good Cop: Hank?
Bad Cop: Mom?
Given that Joyce is Willis’ avatar in this, yes.
Very much yes.
Its hard for me to grasp that concept as my mom was wonderful, dad was…less so
IIRC he’s stated that he deliberately avoided basing the Browns off his own parents.
I do think this is going to be the breaking moment in the Brown household. I believe that Becky is going to cause Jocelyn to feel she can come forward with her transgender status/heterosexuality. Then mother will FLIP out and dad will have his own backsliding but ultimately come out in favor of his children which will lead to their divorce. Mr. Brown might choose his wife over Becky but he won’t abandon his daughter.
Albeit, I don’t envy Jocelyn as she tries to explain that she’s a straight woman and not a gay man.
Yeah I thought about Jocelyn too when I read this strip!
But, do we really know her orientation?
Yes, she said so to Ethan (the only character in the comic she has been open with).
Word of Willis is that Jocelyne is het.
Honestly, I think Becky’s approach of Papa Brown is motivated by idealism. Joyce is doubting her Christian faith because of contradictions she sees but Becky comes at it from an emotional perspectives versus Joyce’s logic. Becky believes people are good, kind-hearted, Christian souls at heart irregardless of Toedad and is hoping that the people she knows and love fundamentally feel the same. Why? Because those were the values she was raised with and she STILL holds them.
http://i.imgur.com/5vTme8M.png
That would be the best thing to happen when Becky meets Carol.
Hank: “Smile and nod, smile and nod…”
i love this so much. all the internets to you
You’ve outdone yourself. 😀
And I just now noticed the “God hates figs” shirt. XD
So he is a good parent after all, praise the Lord!
So far. Let’s see how it goes if Jocelyne comes out.
indeed but given the fact he is trying at least means its a good start and gives good hope for him accepting his other daughter.
Yeaaaahhh… Not looking forward to seeing her..
Ahh I meant the mom. Moms name is Jocelyn or is that the sisters name?
Sister. Mom is Carol.
Easy way to remember…the kids all start with J, the parents don’t.
I’m so happy Joyce is so relieved (haha Becky haters who hated she dared announce her existence- her popping in was a good thing for Joyce, she now knows at least one of her parents is on their side instead of constantly worrying about it! What a relief for her this weekend! A parent on her side! He even knows he should just keep his mouth shut until he works it out emotionally rather then work on horrible instincts he’s been made to culture for the past 40-50+ years!) and I’m so happy that Becky probably has the potential to get a new dad out of this. Who is trying. He’s not perfect and he’s got a long road ahead, but he is.
While he will mess up most likely: and knows it himself given the last panel: Compared to Toe dad he is a saint. And probably in the ‘list of DOA dads’ has probably entered the top three. For displaying basic human decency and trust in his daughter.
Congratulations Hank- even if the bar set has been kind of low in certain cases.
Also I kind of like how he pretty shows the idea of older people never learning/never should be expected to learn their views on a matter is wrong is pretty much bs.
I’ve never liked the trope of ‘racist grandma’ and the idea other members of the family should just ‘roll with it’ for instance. Nah, if they’re still alive now, and should still be subject to at the very least certain expectations on how to act/informed when they mess up. After all just because you’re older doesn’t mean they know everything- or even anything depending on the subject. Just because they probably ‘don’t have long left’ doesn’t mean they get to spend that remaining time treating people like shit. If they mess up, they should be told. Perhaps in entry level terms or ways at first (or not depending on how godawful they are), but still.
It’s never too late to learn and grow.
And that’s important to communicate, because too often people fall for the trap that one is “done” learning at a certain age and then, welp, what can you do and that just ends up entrenching a lot of crap as there’s no pressure on bigoted older people to change and grow.
So yeah, very much agree on everything you said.
I’m an atheist myself but one without any particular animosity to religion in general. It’s kinda nice seeing having religious convictions be not a bad thing when one of the main characters is an atheist. lot of times writers make it an either/or sort of thing.
my only issue with religion in general is that most of it seems to encourage bigoted behavior towards alot of people. Women, gay/bi/pan/etc. or race.
Whenever I come across someone who is very clearly religious im pretty hesitant towards them. But if they show that they dont follow that kind of thing then i dont mind, its just the initial reaction is “Is this person going to hate me if they knew I was gay?”
Granted im like that with everyone but with religious people moreso
I’ve got to say Mr Willis suprised me big time with this reaction, I didn’t think it would go as well this simply because Hank isn’t just fighting against his religious upbringing but also the older someone gets (especially guys) the more set in their ways they are (generally speaking) so well done to Mr Brown
Mind you this is going so well does it mean its not going to go quite so well with Carol?
Especially guys? That’s news to me.
Well I tend to hand around guys more and work with more guys but I’m sure older women are just as bad
From my personal experience, yeah, older men tend to be worse than older women, at least for rigidly and/or aggressively adhering to their intolerances.
Not saying that older men can’t be open-minded people who want to change for the better. (My best friend is 52- old enough to be getting into that stage- but since I’ve known him, he’s shed his racism and taken on a “compassion for all” mentality, for example.) And it’s not to say older women can’t be highly… Problematic.
But as a general rule, I’ve noticed the same thing.
Feel free to argue about, if this is true, why it is so.
Joyce’s big smile in that las panel though ^^
I didn’t realize just how much I’ve missed it. <3
Huh, OK, was totally wrong about Hank! That’s a nice surprise. I really wasn’t expecting him to be genuine, so that’s really nice that he’s reflected on both what Joyce said to them before and on how he’s always known Becky and that he’s willing to understand, even if it’s something he wouldn’t originally accept. Plus points for Hank! I’m obviously too used to seeing jerky dads on here hahaa.
I REALLY like Hank.
I am highly relieved by this reaction, which of course means I’m now terrified of how else it is going to go wrong.
On the plus side, he’s trying. Unlike Toedad, who would have brandished a hunting rifle at this point in the conversation.
YOU HAVE A HAIRCUT, CLEARLY A GUN IS THE ONLY REASONABLE RESPONSE TO THIS SITUATION.
:~)
Mr. Brown’s doing about as well as I could realistically expect from him. I’m certain he’ll still cause some serious pain this weekend, if unintentionally. Strangely, I find that even harder to bear than Blaine or Toedad’s brands of asshole.
It’s the Great Willis Sucker Punch. Sets you up nicely with a character, then wham. It’s all taken away in one KA-BOOM!
It’s because someone acting like Blaine or Ross is something akin to giving you permission to write them off. A lost cause.
I wonder how Becky’s conversation is going to go.
“Hey, Dina, I’m going off for a week or two to go hang out with the girl I am crushing on despite being romantically linked with you, cementing my ignorance of your feelings , as well as your status as an emotional crutch! ”
Or something along those lines.
Or, like, “Hey Dina, I’m going back to my hometown for a weekend to support the girl I’ve been best friends with since we were in diapers, and maybe to grab important documents like my birth certificate and Social Security card from my old house too, since I need those if I’m going to try and enroll here and take science classes with you.”
Or even, “Hey, I’m doing the thing we have discussed several times the last days because this in no way is a surprising turn of events. Anyway, since that is already settled, would you mind terribly some LICKETY-STYLE MOUTH-SMOOCHES in front of this father figure, that would mean a lot to me. Oh, and also, I love you.”
This. Dina already knows, so it’s probably some flavor of “hey, I’ll miss you over the weekend. I love you oodles and poodles, please call me through Joyce’s phone if something comes up and in the meantime, so many hearts and I can’t wait until I’m back with you. Let’s do something fun and evolutiony on Monday.”
You know, like how it would occur in real life between two people in new love when one is going off on a weekend trip.
now I want to do something evolutionary on monday…
WOW WIllis, why you gotta strawman Christians … Oh! You didnt! What are trying to pull here?
It’s the ol’ not strawman fallacy.
Dangit, I KNEW IT!
No True Strawman?
Two thumbs up, Mr Brown
Given the rollercoaster ride of recent ups and downs, I’m just enjoying the feel-good vibe on this, and yesterday’s comic.
It shouldn’t need to be said but thank you Hank for being a decent human being
like daughter, like father i suppose.
It’s nice to see he’s going to try and change his mindset like joyce has been. That’s more that can be said for alot of people.
To be honest, I think I’ll be on the fence about Hank until the end of the arc. There are still several ways for him to say or do something abhorrent, some of which have nothing to do with going back on what he says in this page.
…Wow. It’s rare to find someone who is willing to say, “I was wrong and I will strive to do better”. Sad but true.
But when it’s a parent who had long been in quite a strong position of authority? When it’s someone overwhelmingly surrounded by religion to the point where it defines all their actions? For someone like THAT to say it?
I’ve always felt Hank was the more reasonable of the two- not perfect, but more genuinely loving and likely to listen. I have never felt so warm and fuzzy in having my optimism in a fictional character justified.
I was not expecting that. Joyce’s dad revealed to be pretty decent dad.
I am pleased to see Hank trying. Oh how he is trying. I respect him more because of this.
But i feel he got a secret that he never told anyone at all. Why did he pray SO much? it can’t be only about Becky and Joyce. Perhaps there are trouble Brewing in his marriage? or it might be his son did tell his father what he feels and asked him to keep it silent over for mother.
I know i am reaching.. but Hank looks so sad. pretty sad. he is smiling but still it is a sad smile.
It’s certainly possible that there are several factors influencing Hank’s mood right now. Him and Carol could have been arguing about giving Joyce too much freedom. He might be struggling with the fact that one of his best friends aimed a gun in his daughter’s face. I do wonder though, which son are you refering to? Has Willis said anything about Jordan or Jonathan I’m unaware of?
Joshua in fact. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/writer/ here it is. took more time to find this one than i expected.
So Hank may be struggle with this as well. but it is just one of the possiblities.
Could be that he feels that Carol is too narrowsighted for his taste perhaps. even years of marriage you still can be shocked of your husband/wife’s views.
Jocelyne is Hank’s other daughter. I was going to say it might be easy to miss if you blaze through things on the initial archive binge, though you kinda linked the strip that revealed her name and everything. Maybe give that sequence a reread?
Damn. i did miss that one. but i felt that he wants to be a woman than a man. so it is.. the around way around?
It’s not as simple as being displeased with being male and wishing to be female. Not being trans myself, I’m not qualified to explain it properly, but there are probably at least half a dozen regular readers who can.
it is a heavy subject indeed. not want to dig deeper in this. since this is about Hank not Jocelynce/Joshua.
Just Wonder why he looks so sad. he looks like a woobie right now. someone give him a hug!
In short, a trans person does not WANT to be the gender they identify as. I’ll use myself as an example- I never wanted to be male. I just wanted to be viewed as who I am- which IS male, but I never got to be raised as such.
I think everyone- even people who are transphobic- can agree that, when it comes to cisgender people, we should judge them on who they are not what genitalia they have. Unfortunately that tends to go out the window with transfolk.
Anyway! Simple way should you find yourself needing to explain it- the gender identity of a person is the gender they are, and (with certain exceptions, such as genderfluidity) is the gender they have always been. Always err on the side of compassion and respect.
And hopefully that didn’t sound too preachy.
How can folks not like Becky? She and Dina together are the sweetest, happiest thing in the while blangit Dumbyverse–they make me smile, blessings on the God of Dumbyverse for this gift.
^ Some characters just don’t work for some folks, and that’s okay.
It’s like how I only have a tangential understanding as to why people like Ruth.
You are right, Spencer, but I am bemused.
She is a woman, who was listed as male at birth, due to her genital configuration.
The proper pronoun is ‘she’, the proper gender terms are the feminine, and the proper name is Jocelyn.
Well said. Also, your icon makes it so much better.
Ahah, Jocelyne might be Hank’s son from her family’s perspective since as far as we’re aware she hasn’t felt ready to come out to them yet, but we know she isn’t, so continuing to use words like he and his after that revelation is inaccurate.
I actually didn’t grok on that she was trans until the comments section. Someone referred to Joyce’s sister, and I was about to ask if I’d missed one, and then it dawned on me that that was the reveal.
I’ve never knowingly encountered a trans person who wasn’t out, and I was reading quickly, so my brain just thought Jocelyne was more like a pen name or alternate persona.
I think Word of God has confirmed it and her comments talking to Ethan made much more sense with the revelations, but it would have been a monumental trolling of the comment section to have it all be a massive red herring and her big secret was something like writing romance fiction under a female name (cause that sells better, you know).
Argh. This is driving me nuts. The eldest Brown child is John.
John is a completely different name from Jonathan. They’re barely even related (both come from Hebrew names that refer to God, but John is God is Gracious, Jonathan is God Has Given), for the tetragrammaton’s sake!
Sorry. So many names beginning with ‘Jo’, I forget which are which or have or haven’t been mentioned.
Funny enough my name is John. so it was abit weird to see this. xD
Yay!!! So glad she did go say goodbye to Dina 🙂
“I’m going to nod and smile a lot, until I find enough humility.”
WORDS TO EFFIN’ LIVE BY.
WTG, Dad. It’s hard to grow up after you’re a grown-up. Kudos. Respect.
I think I love Mr. Brown now.
Thank you Willis. Please don’t take this away.
I’m looking at the odds on BetFred for Becky spilling the beans on Joyce’s almost-rape. The odds are so far on I’d actually lose money.
I think someone in one of the previous strips’ comments noticed a similarity between one of the sweater vests in the heap of clothing Becky handed Joyce to pack up and the one with the bloodstain on it that Joyce keeps buried in the bottom of the closet to avoid looking at it.
I’m just going to call it Chekhov’s Sweatervest from now on, for simplicity’s sake.
I think that the only scenario I can see Becky discussing Joyce’s experience without her express permission would be if she were satisfied that Joyce was suffering, that she em>wasn’t going to get the help she needed and that she was thus obliged as her sister-in-all-but-blood to her to talk to someone who can help.
I dunno, I see it much more likely that Becky will say out loud that oh crap, Joyce is alone outside and someone will be like “?” and she’ll be having to motor-mouth her way around it while rapidly exiting to care for Joyce. If that happens, my guess is that it will be Jocelyne who will fully pick up on the meaning behind it.
I would also bet on this, all of it. Becky has already been seen in-strip to be really aware of when Joyce is both alone and outside, more so than other characters who’ve known about Joyce’s troubles longer. (This is because Becky is an excellent friend and caring person.)
Not to downplay Becky’s objective superiority over the plebs she graciously allows into her presence, but she’s also one of three people who both know what happened and how badly Joyce has been affected by it.
Walky and Billie don’t register Joyce’s trauma, Dorothy thinks she’s dealing with it fine, Sarah knows that Joyce is still affected but had her suggestions of going to an authority figure shot down and feels uncomfortable saying anything about it probably out of fear of causing another Dana situation, and Sal figured out that Joyce was still incapable of being outside when she saw Joyce damn near have a panic attack when she was alone, and she still shot down therapy as a solution.
Becky saw Joyce get triggered by the mention of going to a party and how badly she was feeling even trying to talk about it, and was outright told by Sarah what happened. She’s basically got a stacked deck as far as knowing about Joyce’s problems and trying to help goes.
It would be more accurately called “sexual assault”. Just saying. “Almost-rape” doesn’t sit well with me.
Thank you. This is what Joyce needs.
Have to say, really pleasantly surprised by Joyce’s dad here. My experiences do not parallel this at all. I know there are people who do come around out of their bigotry quickly and without much struggle. And I’m sure there are others who struggle with it but realize their bigotry is just that and willfully decide to oppose it like Hank is doing (actually, my grandmother falls in this category on gay rights issues, as did I on trans issues – it was one of those things for me where I don’t know what prompted it but one day I just started critically examining my belief system on that front and realized I didn’t really have anything to back up what I felt about them and that I was probably being pretty damn hypocritical by condemning biphobia but being transphobic myself. So because I am an academic I decided the best place for me to start would be learning more about trans people. So I started reading as much stuff from trans people – not about, though I did read some of the scientific research and what have you, but from because I figured straight people don’t know jack about being bi, so why would cis people know anything about being trans? – as I could. Annnd yeah, after a few months of basically lurking on trans blogs and learning a lot, I realized that it basically boiled down to me as a question of whether or not I trust trans people about their experiences and identity, and I decided I do. I’d like to say that was that but reality is that it took a good 3-4 years to really completely stamp out all the knee-jerk transphobic reactions I’d been socialized to have, and I still do have a hard time using proper terminology in all cases [weirdly, adopting proper pronouns and naming for two of my friends who have come out in the time since I started doing my damnedest to stamp out my inner transphobic bigot was nowhere near as much of a struggle for me]). So it is totally possible for a bigot to realize their bigotry is bigotry and work to correct it in themselves without much confrontation about their bigotry. For me to say otherwise would be pretty damn foolish. I did it.
It’s just, in my experience, there’s me, and there’s my grandmother, and that’s pretty much it. Every other bigot I’ve met had to be dragged kicking and screaming either through life experiences or social pressure to the conclusion of “they’re not so bad after all.” And maybe I’ve got sampling bias. But for me, when I made friends with the queer kids at school, there was a lot of, “Well, I can’t choose who you socialize with and if you like hanging around perverts that’s your choice but you’re not bringing them to this house” type of stuff and eventually after like two years of constant friction over it, they modified to “Okay I don’t think they’re evil but I don’t like it and do they have to be so in-your-face about it?” (only with more of a show of disgust and gratuitous gagging noises) and after I came out, it basically became a Thing One Shall Not Talk About. And that’s where it stands. Reportedly, they broke out champagne when I started dating my now-common-law spouse because “At least she’s not a lesbian. This way, we can get grandkids.” (I wasn’t there, but two different folks from back home told me about it and apparently that was how they found out. There is a reason I don’t visit home much.)
So, all that means: I am seriously, seriously relieved that Hank is trying to be decent. He might yet fail at it (in fact, looking upon my experiences when I was learning not to be a transphobic bigot, he almost certainly will and he’ll be really puzzled at what he did wrong because he won’t know why something hit a nerve yet – my experience is that well-meaning ignorance can hurt someone as much as malice, unfortunately.), but he is trying and that means something.
Oh, and full disclosure: I was dragged kicking and screaming through life experience into the equality camp on sexism, and LGB rights, and through a combo of life experience and social confrontation on racism and ableism. I very much think coming around on trans rights was just my subconscious going, “Hey you were wrong about those other issues, maybe you’re wrong about this, too! Just something to think about.” Like, I’d gotten humbled so much about internalized bigotry since my teen years I was at a point where my default assumption was that my knee-jerk reaction to stuff was going to be wrong, and I think that “I am probably wrong about everything” feeling – what Joyce is probably going to wind up getting before this story is through – really set me into the right headspace to confront my transphobia head-on. So I’m not super-special or anything – I just was in the right headspace to be able to start the process without external prodding on this issue, in particular.
Thank you for all of this, *hugs*
Immersing people in diverse communities is pretty much the most effective means of stamping out their prejudices. It’s much harder to maintain an us vs. them mentality when them are right there in your face being just as much of a complex human being as yourself.
It’s also a great way to learn that those weird feelings and impulses aren’t things that every cishet dude experiences that you just need to learn to ignore.
Yeah, on the topic of diversity being important: I have a major soft spot for the Degrassi remake because the portrayals of Marco’s and Paige’s realization of their orientations there helped me to first recognize and then accept my bisexuality.
It helped me realize who I am and accept that in a way there is no way in hell I would have been able to until university, otherwise. Because, seriously, Degrassi was the first time I saw an (albeit imperfect) portrayal of what it’s actually like to not be straight, and it was the first time I was allowed to be exposed to the existence of non-straight people (largely cuz my folks assumed that a show aimed at preteens would be early-90s Disney type fare in terms of heteronormativity in content). In so doing, it helped me find a sense of self-respect and eventually, to find my way out of a really dark headspace of self-loathing that was made worse by the fact that I didn’t even consciously know why I hated myself so damn much and why I had so much shame and insecurity. So, yah.
Media representation of queer stories matters. I think I would have been an unhappier, angrier, meaner and more bitter person if I didn’t have that show to help start me on the path to self-acceptance despite everything else going on in my life at the time (cuz, for me at least, confronting my internalized bigotry started with realizing that I’m bi. I might’ve gotten a start on feminism still in my teen years because of my tomboyishness anyway, but the rest of it, I honestly don’t think I would’ve touched. The thing that set the house of cards falling, for me, was realizing that I am bi and that I didn’t think I was this disgusting evil person, and that I couldn’t accept that just having crushes on girls should be worthy of as much shame as I felt over it. And growing to accept myself helped me to become more tolerant and patient with others. I mean, every reformed bigot has their own story, but for me, it was just a, “wait, this feels way too familiar. Wait, is that it? Is that what I’ve been feeling about her?” and then everything unraveled and kind of went to hell in my head for a good three years or so but in the long run it was better it started when it did, I think – given my beliefs on bisexuality at the time, it was going to lead to a crisis for me sooner or later, and I’m honestly glad it happened before I was fully cemented into my bigoted beliefs, and at a time that I had stories and characters I could connect to and relate with to kind of serve as a mental anchor point). Forget the “it gets better” campaign (for me, at least, it just felt like so much condescending b.s. at the time. I couldn’t believe it because I was in a headspace where hope itself seemed like bullshit), what I needed as a teen – and what Degrassi gave me – was a role model, fictional or otherwise. I needed to know that other people like me existed, that they were dealing with some or all of the same shit that I was dealing with. I needed that sense of connection. “It gets better” didn’t give that to me. Degrassi, for all its other faults as a show, did. If you’re in a situation where you can’t get exposure to a diverse community, diverse media is a pretty good plan B.
Thank you for doing that introspection and changing your mind about people. <3 Mad props.
I give all credit to the trans blogging community. Bloggers like Natalie Reid and Zinnia Jones and others either took on or take on (some of the ones who helped educate me are now inactive owing to the toll it takes to be the educator to bigots all the time) huge risks and mental burdens to educate and just put trans people’s stories out there. Their work convinced me, in a way that I don’t think just reading clinical advocacy organizations’ press statements would have nearly as quickly (if at all). They put human faces and voices to the issue for me.
Honestly, I think that if you are a person with empathy and compassion for others, and you are exposed to diverse points of view, you can’t help but to become more tolerant and less bigoted. I’ve discovered it over and over again, and it’s why I try to center my media consumption on the works of people unlike me as much as possible, and why I do my best to socialize with as many different people from me as possible (both online and off).
……………………….I have more respect for him right now than I ever thought I would. ;;;; He’s not perfect, but. HE’S TRYING.
Thank you, Willis.
It’s nice to see a fundie-who’s-willing-to-trust-and-learn in this strip.
(Yes, he has a way to go. Don’t we all?)
Or a parent willing to trust their child’s judgement.
You’ve said many times that Joyce is you, more or less.
I hope this was your experience with one of your parents, too.
I wonder if Becky’s father was part of the reason Joyce’s dad is more accepting of Becky. Becky’s father held her at gunpoint in front of Joyce. Both girls could have been killed. I would start questioning my homophobia, too, if I saw how it could have gotten my child killed. Kind of like if you were a racist and your child is almost killed by the KKK. You’re going to start wondering if your racist views are as wrong as the KKK’s.
Regardless of any Christian overtones, Hank is a good dad. How many of us wish we had been told by our parents that they trust and respect us to do the right thing? Or even better, that they take our thoughts and feelings into consideration when having their own internal debate.
that would have been nice.
Who else choked up reading Hank’s dialog? Can he adopt me? Please?
Well done, Dad, we could all stand to learn a little more humility in our lives 🙂
Yay! They aren’t all Mary!
I love this strip! I am so happy for Joyce hopefully her dad will help her to heal.
JoyceDad is making an effort, so we can give him that.
you keep your mouth shut Mr. Brown, Dina and Becky are the most adorable thing in existence, they’re like Peridot squared.
Yes, how can people not like Becky after seeing her with Dina?!
He’s seeing them from a distance. He’s not able to appreciate the full effect.
Oh shit now I’m imagining Dina with Peridot hair.
i cant
This makes sense to me. If we are to assume that Joyce’s family (with the exception of one sibling) is the most similar to their walkyverse counterparts Then this is the same christian family who after their children had left had the kama sutra in their drawrer, EXCEPT they were born 20 years earlier. This feels like a natural progression for him, and if this visit goes well for Becky, then it might give Jocelyne courage to be honest with the Browns.
Phew, he really IS a good dad. And this is the sweetest little speech.
Well, he’s trying to be one…and you gotta give him credit for that.
So far he’s doing a LOT better than all the other dads
Totally called it yesterday.
No, God, it’s over. I just found and read this entire thing in one shot.
Now go through it again WITHOUT skipping the comments. Sometimes they’re the best part. Other times… not so much. But well worth sifting through at least some each page.
A Comments Binge!?!
[Pleased screaming]
YAY HANK YOU’RE DOING GOOD MAN DON’T FUCK THIS UP
This is what trying to learn looks like. This is good. I mean, he could still fuck it up, but this is definitely a good sign.
You’re a good man, Hank. You’re a good man…
I’M NOT CRYING YOU’RE CRYING!
Yay for A+ parenting from Joyce’s dad! That’s really awesome, and I love that we’re seeing a different take on the hyper religious characters, he’s working to accept that his world view might be flawed and that there are things where he doesn’t know best.
I’m always amazed how Christians and Catholics make things more difficult that even their religions actually make them.
Mr Brown is the kind of religious I can stand without throwing up in my mouth a little bit.
Finally a truly sympathetic Christian character? Or are we going to find out that he secretly keeps Richard Dawkins shackled in his basement to administer literal Bible bashings twice a day?
The first truly sympathetic Christian character? What about Joyce, Becky, Billie, Danny, Sierra etc?
None of them are old straight white dudes, duh.
Is Danny a Christian? When did we find that out? Legit question since I don’t remember his faith, or a lack thereof, being mentioned.
(Personally, wouldn’t consider Billie to be a Christian by more than name/self-appointment, so to class her as a sympathetic Christian character implies more practice of faith than I’ve seen from her). Though Becky’s one of my favourites as a sympathetic Christian char because she’s so whackadoodle. She’s still like “whoa!” over Dorothy’s atheism and still seems to be thumping the Bible in a very casual way (learning about evolution and defending it to Joyce in a biblically-grounded remark rather than in a completely areligious way).
Danny talked about going to church earlier on and is familiar enough with the bible to know that Jesus flipped a table. Willis has described him as “nominally Christian.”
Billie believes in God, even describing it as “who doesn’t, really”, but like a lot of Christians doesn’t put much stock towards actively expressing it, and considered Dorothy being an atheist weird.
Both characters, who are married to each in the Walkyverse, also apparently teach Sunday school now.
Thanks! Although I grew up with a Muslim father and atheist mother, and even I know about Jesus and the money-changers, lol.
Not sure I’d count Billie as tone of the comic’s sympathetic Christians regardless of her remark on Dorothy. If a person’s just nominally Christian, it would be like being nominally vegetarian and remarking that eating meat is an abhorrent concept, but having hotdogs and ham sandwiches whenever you feel like having a hotdog or ham sandwich.
Joyce, Becky are only Christians in order to stop being Christians in service of the story. Billie is Christian but in name. We barely know anything about Sierra other than the fact that she seems nice and apparently is Christian. Joyce’s dad is the first Christian to appear as an actual believer that’s not going through a crisis of faith AND that is a decent human being (unless the basement thing I mentioned or similar comes up).
“Joyce, Becky are only Christians in order to stop being Christians in service of the story.”
– hahaha NO.
Stop with this no-true-scotsman. They are christians, Becky is far from being in a crisis of faith (if anything, her faith is stronger than ever because God answers lesbian prayers).
Sierra is a Christian, no “apparently” , that’s one of the few things we know about her. She goes to church with Joyce and likes the sermon.
I don’t know why you’re talking like that on Billie. Does ome have to wear their religion on their sleeves all the time to count for you?
Becky is just avoiding thinking too deep about it but her embracing science wholeheartedly, shows her willingness to shed her previous flawed beliefs without a thought, while keeping any that don’t seem inconvenient for her new lifestyle. That’s fast track course to completely losing your religion. In fact, Joyce’s hardship with it is what may allow her to, in the end, retain some well-thought, personally chosen compromise between faith and logic.
Sierra is apparently Christian precisely because it is the one thing we know about her. Her personality is either super shallow or intentionally left to the imagination. The jerk who harassed Joyce was also apparently Christian up until the moment we learned better.
And Billie? No I don’t think that religion must be worn on your sleeve all the time, but I do believe it shapes your thoughts and actions for better or worse. Her actions show absolutely no Christian behaviour nor way of thinking.
Anyway, I sense that you are getting defensive, but there’s no need. I’m not attacking the characters in question for not being religious or for having a crisis of faith. My criticism was aimed at the fact that there was not an overly, unmistakably Christian character with unshakeable beliefs until now that was shown in a positive way, which was unrealistic enough to make me suspect an agenda. Joyce’s dad is putting my suspicions to sleep, though. That’s why I jokingly suggested that he’s going to somehow end being antagonistic and a jerk.
You’re a good man, Mr. Brown.
Consecutive strips without Hank saying something horrible: 4
*enthusiastically holding up the “5” sign and grinning like an idiot* 😀
This is very touching, Willis. *sniff* …my life story *sniff*
Maaaaaaaaaaaybe her dad is workable. We can hope!
So he’d be the token non-asshole dad, then?
There’s some non-assholes dads, like Dorothy’s, Dina’s, and Sierra’s. Charles Walkerton is kind of an idiot who along with his wife has made his daughter isolated and miserable for a decade plus, buuut I’m pretty sure if he ever found out about Sal’s feelings he’d try to make things right. Both of Ethan’s parents are kind of genuine shitbags but when Ethan finally stands up to them I can see his dad being more receptive to it than his mom, if only because his parental “shame your way outta the gay” abuse was tinged with an element of trying to make it sound like a positive, as opposed to his wife just being genuinely awful.
I must be allergic to hope.
Now I’m picturing what happens if Momma Brown finds out that Becky kissed Joyce and was in love with her.
I really don’t know. Otoh, Yoda: Do or do not, there is no try. Otoh, one of my favorite songs (The Wheel),: Won’t you try just a little bit harder, couldn’t you try just a little bit more?
Wow. Nice.
Aww. He’s trying. This is sweet.
Rejoice! Genuine Joyce Jubilee!!
AWWWWWWWWWWWW
(he’s acknowledging his current gut reaction is not polite/appropriate/correct and resolving to try and be better than that)
(<3 Mr Brown)
This is now my fav DoA. Hands down. So glad Dad is real and not a caricature. And Joyce has found her happy place again! Way to go Willis!
Catching up on Dumbing of Age and … HEY GO MR. BROWN yay for progression!