“Hi! I’m Becky! I don’t think about the consequences of my actions because if I did, I’d get super bummed out! Plus, being impulsive is part of why I’m just the raddest! Rock on peeps!”-what I hear whenever I look at Becky.
I’m gonna say that she did think about this one. Joyce’s dad was being strangely nice and and good and maybe she didn’t want Joyce to forget the bad stuff, so she threw herself into the fray to make the dad act mean. Of course this is just hopeful thinking.
And yes, despite the suffering involved, I think “Reminding her that her parents are intolerant so she doesn’t just blow it off because things are going nice this time” is good. Though I have no idea why I keep coming here to comment, since I still haven’t read this through.
On a completely unrelated sidenote. All the people reading Becky like some sort of supervillain seeking to hurt people is giving me flashbacks to all the people who tried to argue during the Toedad hunts Becky arc who tried to argue that it would be such a “good twist” if it turned out that Becky was an evil gay liar who lies and Toedad was actually just an awesome caring dad trying to stop her lying gay ways.
Like, it’s at the level where it’s a) no, and b) what comic have these people even been reading to be able to interpret Becky’s character this way?
This comic, they’re just reading it through their twisted worldview. I remember in QC when Marten’s Dad first showed up there was someone who came into the forum angrily claiming that gay men are inherently incapable of caring about their families, because his own father had “abandoned” his family (it was never clear whether this is a case of being a scumbag who happened to be gay, or if the father just couldn’t handle their bigotry and so cut ties) so clearly all gay people would do that.
Are we really going to get these “This character is the devil and deserves whatever they get” comments whenever anyone LGBTQIA does anything in this comic? ~.~
Because I don’t hear any of you people saying this about Joe. Or Mike. Or Jacob.
Ok, I had to sign on just to say ‘Mike deserves to have his entire life blow up in his face.’ Because, even as someone who has left college long behind them, I have no sympathy for him, and whatever makes him such a jerk. He’s a sick puppy and he’s going to do serious damage someday unless he’s stopped.
Honestly, Joe scares me a lot. Hopefully he hasn’t committed sexual assault yet, and someone will upside him in the head and get through before he does, but he teeters on the verge of harrassment way too often. If he were to pick up a (curable) STD, I would be all like “Karma!”
I have some sympathy for Becky, but Willis has already shown us that she’s not in a good headspace right now to make good choices. She’s upset, to start with, and Becky has shown that her response to being upset is to stir the Shinola. She’s done it before. The fact that her traumas and her coming out are what are pushing her to do that stirring is worthy of sympathy, but this is still a bad choice, and one coming from a state of poor judgement.
While confronting Joyce’s dad may be a good truthtelling measure, it’s unlikely to allow the object of Becky’s affection the time and space she needs to come to terms with everything that has happened to her and how that involves her family of origin.
Poor Joyce. Poor Becky. But jeez, Becky, way to take your best friend with you on your Nuke Them From Orbit tour.
It’s come up. Both with Mike and Joe, though I don’t recall anything with Jacob.
There was a lot of analysis of Joe just a little while back during the fake marriage bit. IIRC, mostly the same people defending Becky here were criticizing Joe there.
Mike’s a little odder. He gets some slack from the Shortpacked version and from generally being over the top & cartoony. For some, he’s just not real enough to attack. Others think he really is an ass.
I feel like if I were to evaluate Mike as I would a real person then yes, he is a complete ass.
On the other hand, it almost seems like he walks a weird line between a jerk who just screws with everyone for the hell of it, and some sort of… I’m not really sure what the word is, but it seems like half of his dickish behavior is actually aimed at forcing characters to own up to their mistakes, see past their own excuses, or face some unpleasant decision. Except for punching Joe in the face repeatedly at Joyce’s request. That was pure physical comedy.
Of course, this all depends on whether or not Mike is actually orchestrating all this on purpose, or if it’s all an unintended consequence of being an asshole. It would be easier to get a read on him if he were actually present whenever shit hits the fan and we could see if he actually makes an effort to help or not when it matters.
I really don’t buy the “Mike is trying to help by forcing people to confront their mistakes” argument. Partially because Mike never did that in the Walkyverse; if anything he took great pleasure in making peoples’ lives worse, and partially because of all the genuinely horrible actions he’s taken. I’m pretty sure he’s just meant to be an occasional joke character.
And like, if it’s true… so what? It’s still disgusting, and presumes that Mike is in a place where he should allowed to mete out abuse as long as it has a positive ending.
Mike is an awesome force of nature and the help you never want. He may force people to face their own contradictions because he enjoys being a jerk, but that doesn’t make him any less useful. What we have here is a immature form of the Walkyverse Mike, a dumber version if you like, but still recognizably Mike.
I’m kind of hoping he I use flat out hugs her and tries to make sure she is okay. Thus revealing that he’s not as shitty a Christian as his wife, but that he upholds her teachings in the house.
That would be awesome, but I can definitely see him doing that and then chiding her for her “choices” in friendship later on in the car. Basically a similar small comfort and then pulling the rug from out under her that her mom did.
I could see the Browns questioning Joyce remaining close with her best friend, but what choices in friendship would they chide Becky for? I doubt Ross has told anyone about the Pokey Man girlchild that deceived him.
They know he’s in jail “because” of her. (And by that I mean he’ll put all the blame on her, he’s in jail because of the shit he pulled, not defending him on that front.)
That’s what I meant, sorry. That he’ll emotionally hit Joyce for her “choices” in being friends with her in a way that’ll unintentionally hit Becky or he’ll chide Becky for her “choices” in sexuality and parental obedience in a way that minimizes the true horror of Toedad’s crime.
That would be nice, but I’d be worried that if that happened then all the parent couples we see would be Overbearing-Mom/Ineffectual-Dad types. Not to say DoA doesn’t have its share of Bad Dads, obv, but they all sort of appear solo, either divorced or widowed. Besides Dorothy’s parents the rest would seem to fall into these two categories, though I could be easily missing something.
Considering some of the insights the author has given into his own Fundie upbringing (and the fact that Joyce is autobiographical), I really hope you’re right.
We haven’t seen Hank without Carol before; it’s possible he’s fairly moderate but ‘plays along’ with her to avoid conflict. (For lack of a better description.)
“You haven’t changed” is a really common thing to say to someone, let alone your kid after they’ve been away at college. I can’t imagine Hank meant anything sinister by it.
it’s…probably more related to me and my personal experiences tbh.
like, as someone who grew up in a more evangelical-flavored fundie background, the stated goal for me as a good christian girl going to college was to not change anything important about myself or my morals. because college was sort of notorious for being a corrupting influence?? a lot of good christian kids would go to college and then leave the church. which people’s morals evolving and changing is apparently a Bad Thing, as is being exposed to more of the world. acknowledging gay people’s existence, let alone trans people’s. being kind to people who’ve had abortions. allowing the world to be bigger than the church, essentially.
idk there’s this real thing in the churches i’ve been a part of where you have to specifically control your intake so that you don’t become corrupted. you have to walk the straight and narrow in every aspect of your life, you have to be this particular person and if you’re not you’re a bad christian. and the gossip can be insidious and vicious, because people are human but they’re held up to these standards that nobody can possibly reach and they’re taught to feel bad about themselves all the time because they’re not good enough, never going to be good enough. and –
there’s this specific kind of patriarchal controlling that comes with being daddy’s little girl. because you do your best to please and you try to be perfect, like a disney princess, but disney princesses aren’t real people and they don’t have the kind of real problems that can’t be solved within the space of a song. but you’re still really encouraged to fit that perfect image of what a girl ought to be: which is a static image. Aurora asleep on her bed waiting for true love’s kiss, essentially, but true love never comes because she’s never allowed to get up and go looking for it. she’s not an active participant; she’s always passive and moldable. which for a long time was the ideal woman in american society.
so like – at this point i’m probably way overreading it, although this chapter is called “that perfect girl” – but Hank not meaning anything sinister by it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a heckton of cultural baggage along with it. which is, essentially, the problem.
so like it is kinda heartwarming because both Hank and Joyce are trying to go back to a space where things were simple and nothing had to change. but like simpler is sort of a matter of perspective – the world was always this screwed up, Joyce just didn’t notice until now, and it’s a manifestation of white Christian privilege that the world was allowed to be that simple and black and white.
Hank might not have, but Willis did.
It’s pretty obviously a callback both to Becky’s “Don’t let anyone change you” from Mov-in Day and to her later “I’m glad they did”.
Joyce just stood up for Becky in the face of death itself. This is going to be painful however it goes, but I don’t think Joyce throwing Becky under the truck is going to happen.
Yeah, the way it’d stack up is Joyce alone will have a much harder time, because she won’t have an ally willing to fully get her back (Jocelyne is awesome, but terrified of jumping into arguments with family), but Becky with Joyce means Becky will be having to casually grin past a lot of crap herself and may be physically dangerous for her.
No, no, no. You’re supposed to set the universal constants while creating the universe such that the random number generator on a particular Game Boy generates a zero at a particular time such that it is guaranteed that the pokéball captures the Joyce.
Which, yeah, I would normally assume to mean, yes, but only if you’re okay with it, which Becky was, but given that we haven’t seen Becky pack, maybe that assumption is in error, but then maybe this scene suggests the opposite. I dunno, I imagine it’ll get cleared up one way or another by the next couple of comics.
*blink blink* Ummmmm, what exactly is the “first” day she “ruined”? Was it the one where she was running halfway across the state with nothing beyond the clothes on her back having just escaped being dragged off to a “reparative therapy” camp? Or the day her dad decided to come on campus and try and kidnap her at gunpoint?
Or maybe it’s all the times she’s shown a huge amount of support for her best friend, putting aside her own trauma recovery to fully be there for Joyce’s emotional crises?
Gosh, Becky is so very selfish. Really, just the worst. *roll eyes*
I know, right? If she had just reported for brainwashing camp like a good little Droog, Joyce’s day would be like 18% better right now. And isn’t that what’s really important here?
Becky has been through some shit, but she’s often rude and doesn’t think about how her actions affect others. Living with joyce in a moment of desperate need doesn’t make her a jerk. Things like this do. You can sympathize and be annoyed by a character’s actions at the same time.
Are you trying to imply that it’s possible to be a persecuted party and still by merit of your actions cause a lot of stress and harm towards people around you, and that simply because your life is fucked up doesn’t make you immune to consequences or get you out of having to take responsibility for any actions that may cause problems for the people around you since your problems are still more astronomically worse? Having an awful life is basically your “Get out of judgement free” card. You’re given the proportional amount of leeway based on how shitty your life is.
I think it’s more that none of us in this thread is really sure where these accusations are coming from? Like…I’m totally open to being proven wrong, but what stress and harm has Becky caused to those around her, with the exception of being kidnapped and held at gunpoint by her dad? Because, ah…those aren’t her doing.
Oh Becky’s obnoxious but tolerable. Joyce is kinda hanging on by a thread though and if I was her lesbian best friend I’d be making out with my girfriend I’d probably show a bit more tact, considering everything Joyce knew has basically been ripped from her life forcibly within the first two months of college and she’s clearly desperately trying to hold onto something.
But…then why are so many people acting like Becky’s a recurring toxic influence in Joyce’s life? Literally, I’m asking what has she done that people are reacting to?
Basically nothing. In the same way she has never once had a negative experience with alcohol. Becky hasn’t done anything directly to Joyce, but Becky’s appearance has caused a cascading series of awful events all attributed to Becky that Joyce had to defend her from. She’s emotionally exhausted and in a very short time had to make very big changes. She seemed to be hungry for some familiarity before being thrust into what her life has become.
So like…people are blaming Becky for the extreme amount of homophobia and trauma she’s had to deal with lately, which Joyce (as her best friend) has tried to help with? That’s what I’m getting here, and while I (again) am open to being proven wrong, I don’t see any concrete badness from Becky being pointed out here.
Did you skip over parts of what I wrote? I’m curious because I really don’t want to write it out again.
Becky can do whatever she wants. Joyce wants to help her because she’s a good friend. Helping Becky is incredibly emotionally exhausting for Joyce. Becky basically bounds through life with very few cares which is ideal. It’s probably how I’d act. Joyce however feels very aprehensive about this, especially because she doesn’t want to lose every part of herself in favor of her friends. She’s sacrificed a lot. Becky showing up isn’t wrong and there’s a good chance it’ll go fine. But based on all the drama of her being there in the first place, the chance for it to go wrong is pretty large. And while Becky can roll with the punches, Joyce is a bit less able to do that. Just compare how Becky acted once she started rooming with Joyce to how Joyce acted. Becky was loud, exuberant and immediately went out to change herself. Joyce resisted the change but supported her friend and wasn’t until she was forced to do something did she change her disposition.
Becky is a Wheel. Joyce is a Cube. Despite all of the awful things that’ve happened to Becky she continues on. Joyce has been drained by that experience. Sure, the homophobia isn’t Becky’s fault, but it certainly is based on Becky being around. And while Becky takes everything in stride Joyce is now very obviously distant and frustrated.
Pretending like everything is fine and normal on Becky’s behalf seems a little uncomfortable. Joyce is struggling to try to maintain as much of herself as she can and she is now reasonably worried she has to forsake her family. Perhaps Becky’s also bottling up her emotions but Joyce is very clearly not handling the past week very well and now the one thing she had to look forward to might be taken from her.
Yes. Because that’s what happens. That’s what always happens. When shit cascades on you bouncing off and hitting to a lesser extent those around you, then people blame you as if you caused the shit cascade in the first place. Because if you didn’t?
Then things are not okay. Things, big scary, unequal things in society. Unfixable things are broken. So it must have been the person getting fucked over, getting hit with the oppression. They really should have known better.
She is. She’s not pulling a Walky and saying “hi Hank, I’ve been sleeping in your daughter’s bed for a week”. She’s telling a disarming and humanizing story about Joyce that has no connection to the recent events. She’s in every way, presenting a clean normality.
And well… yeah, she should be talking to Hank. She has no family. Her mom’s dead. Her dad’s Toedad and on his way to prison. Hank and Carol are the closest things to what she has left. This is what remains of even the echo of her family. These are people she’s known her whole life. This is not a stranger to her.
And she’s doing literally nothing wrong in approaching him as a friend.
I agree. She’s clearly not malicious in her intentions. But if this goes south, would Joyce walk away unscathed. It’d help Becky certainly, and it’d help Joyce in the long run maybe. But Joyce has already regressed. This could potentially just be another notch in Joyce’s slow decent into depression. And now Joyce is denied the opportunity to ease into it and Becky just rips it off like a band-aid.
Becky definitely has the right to talk to Hank. She would’ve been wiser (careful of her own safety & finding out if it’ll go okay), and kinder to Joyce, if she’d *told* Joyce she wanted to go with if possible.
Nope.
Becky should walk 10 spaces at all times behind the Browns,
and then …sneak into the trunk while Hank isnt Looking.
right?
Thats the only way the poor fragile Homophobes in the readership can be comfortable with Beckys um….Infectious Uppity Lesbianship. Actually looking Mr Brown in the face? Its almost like Becky isnt ashamed of her own existence.
What? making a sushi joke? That could be a double-entendre.
Since when are Gay people allowed to tell the jokes?
Becky must advance directly to Gay-jail, do not collect Glitter. Do not go to Long John Silvers.
I saw that comic but I think it’s ambiguous, cause look at Joyce’s surprised face in the last panel of today’s! They didn’t plan this introduction or test the waters with the Browns at all. Much better to have said, days ago, “okay please let them know I still regard them as family and I want to come along, and see if they are full of transphobic bees”
Or, just as much, Joyce could’ve said “okay cool, I’d like to have you, I’ll let my mom know to make extra food and set up the guest bed. Let’s plan what to do if my folks turn out to be jerks.”
I wonder if they had planned to do that or at least talk more about particulars and fully clarify their game plan, but the ‘rents arriving early threw all that out the window and so Becky had to wing it based on the last bits said out loud regarding it.
Like, ok, we seemed to leave it at I’m going to support, but Joyce isn’t actively bringing this up. Should I, shouldn’t I? Um… Joyce probably needs me based on our convo, so fuck it, I’m going in. Be disarmingly casual and then maybe let Joyce bring up the possibility of me coming or I can pitch coming along myself.
Becky should definitely be talking to Hank. From her perspective, it’s probably wise to at least get a read on this father before he takes his daughter away from school. She’s got no reason to have blind faith at this point.
Ok I don’t want to argue against giving Joyce a chance to consent, but she tends to worry a lot, especially about her parents’ reactions to things. Maybe by surprising her, she’s relieving Joyce of a responsibility to “explain” Becky. I could easily imagine a week of Joyce trying to “talk around” the issue with Becky nervously watching from the shadows. Becky can be tactless at times, but she’s not stupid. She would jump out if she didn’t think it had a significant chance of working out OK.
* She sexually assaulted and harassed Joyce (kissed her without warning/consent, continued to make sexual comments even when she knew it made her uncomfortable).
* She constantly says and does things that are inappropriate and unhelpful
Being gay doesn’t give her a free pass on being a terrible and obnoxious person. Having a hard time of things doesn’t give her a free pass either.
The first kind of sucked, though understandable under the circumstances. Joyce has forgiven her and she hasn’t repeated even the sexual comments after the first day or so.
The second is debatable at best, depending on what examples you have in mind. She’s a bit loud and obnoxious, I wouldn’t go much farther than that. Especially knowing that most of it is cover for trauma – No one likes a Debbie Downer.
She doesn’t get a free pass, but I don’t think she’s terrible to start with.
“Are you trying to imply that it’s possible to be a persecuted party and still by merit of your actions cause a lot of stress and harm towards people around you, and that simply because your life is fucked up doesn’t make you immune to consequences or get you out of having to take responsibility for any actions that may cause problems for the people around you since your problems are still more astronomically worse? ”
To a certain extent, yeah.
Otherwise, we drive right into “you were abused so it’s ok for you to hit others” territory.
Becky is constantly thinking of others, to the point where she denies herself her right to collapse, because she thinks she needs to be happy helpful Becky all the time.
And offering to come along home to support said friend through an emotionally trying time. Which this? Said thing she is offering is to willingly go back to a community that views her as a literal child-stealing monster. Who will pray over her and is the same community that views her being gay as an ailment that must be fixed. This offer is not just a kindness, it’s her literally risking potentially being whisked away to a reparative therapy camp just to help a friend not feel fully alone: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/elsewhere/
Oh yeah, and when she was just rescued, despite having been through a terrifying experience, where she was nearly shot, was in fact punched, definitely threatened with death, and nearly killed in a car crash, immediately drops everything to emotionally support Joyce: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/damn/
And gosh, I feel I’m forgetting something… Oh, right…
She straight up sacrificed herself for the safety and emotional health of others. She risked being tortured, never seeing anyone she loved ever again, and all manner of awfulness, simply to make sure no pain or more emotional suffering befell those she cared for.
She straight up sacrificed herself.
But still we get “oh Becky is so selfish” comments. Despite the fact that literally no one outside of maybe Amazi-girl has been shown to be so unconditionally selfless.
I don’t know how to say this next comment without sounding really really really bitter, so screw it I’ll sound really really really bitter:
Yes, but, don’t you see? She persists in being so open and blatant about who she is! I mean, what does she expect when she basically announces it from the nearest rooftop? */heavy sarcasm*
The reaction to Becky just boils down to classic victim-blaming. She won’t go to inhuman lengths to change everything about herself so her abuser is happy, therefore everything her abuser does is her fault. Ok, yeah, she’s not exactly swimming in forethought, but that does not in any way make her deserve the piles and piles of shit that’s been thrown her way, nor does it make her responsible for damage caused by the actions of others.
That Joyce is exhausted and traumatized after what Toedad did is completely 100% Toedad’s fault, not Becky’s.
What, exactly, would any of you have had Becky do when her dad showed up to drag her off to one of those re-education camps? Go along meekly and put up with degradation and torture for time unspecified so as not to inconvenience anyone? Flee but remain homeless with nothing but the clothes on her back as winter approaches, thus risking injury and death by any number of dangers on the streets (let’s be real here – Becky does a better job of hiding it, but she’s every bit as sheltered and naive as Joyce. Bad Things would happen to her if she did that)? What other options did she have?
Becky was put into a lose-lose situation, and she chose the option of best odds of self-preservation. I cannot fault her for that, and I cannot deem it as “selfish” for her to take the least-bad option available to her.
And all that is ignoring the fact that she has consistently and systematically covered up how much this is affecting her for the sake of her friends, and consistently put aside her own needs to help those she cares about. Yeah, in part it may be due to the fact that she fears abandonment (after all she’s been through, do you blame her?) but part of it is her genuine personality. I sincerely doubt that was the first time Toedad was violent towards her (she did not seem surprised or shocked at all when he hit her, and she was entirely too good at judging when and how she needed to submit to stay safe, both of which tell me her dad has probably hit her before), and until the gun incident, Joyce had no idea what he was really like.
I think it’s inappropriate to question Becky’s selfishness, for all the reasons you pointed out and more. The thing that I’m upset about have to do with her treatment of Dina. While it’s true that Becky brings her along for a lot, Dina already feels like Becky treats her as a rebound. And now with this, (I’m going after the assumption that Becky is trying to either go with Joyce, or instigate a reaction from her father), it feels like the two things that could happen are put Joyce in a tough position, or make Dina think she’s not a “real” girlfriend. She’s probably questioning every move anyway. It must be hard for her.
All I’m saying is that we’ve seen a lot of sacrifice and unselfishness from Becky towards Joyce. I really wish she’d direct more at her girlfriend.
I included some links regarding that in the link dump, but there’s a lot more I can include. Basically, every time Dina and Becky have interacted, Becky’s gone out of her way to make sure Dina feels appreciated, talk up how interested and excited she is by her company and her topics of conversations, and show genuine awe at her girlfriend’s awesomeness.
The link where Dina is ripping herself apart for not stopping a man 3 times her size and Becky’s all let’s bring the police back in here, because my badass girlfriend biting him is so awesome it should be in the police report demonstrates this nicely. As does the bit where Dina asks a concerned question about the Bio class being boring and Becky raves about it right before she thanks Amber. And she even has been doing well to make sure she hasn’t been abandoning Dina to care for Joyce, making sure to bring Dina with her and make it a group comfort when Becky notices that Joyce just stormed off and is now in danger of a flashback because of it.
Like, yes, Dina feels she is not a “real” girlfriend and has a lot of insecurities about whether she is able to make Becky happy and with regards to being the “rebound”, but Becky so far in comic has been shown to be a very conscientious to her girlfriend, deliberately avoiding taking advantage of her, celebrating her inherent awesomeness, and showing support where she can (Dina is about as open with her internal pain as Becky), always making sure Dina feels supported and is recognized for her awesomeness.
Hell, I’ve seen real-life very healthy couples that don’t feature as much internal support for each other as Dina and Becky have shown in comic. They’re really quite healthy for each other.
And that’s not covering Becky at the beginning. Sure, I said in a previous post that maybe she didn’t know she had a huge crush on Joyce until she wasn’t with her.
But, given everything else, it’s just as likely if not more that she was putting on a brave front so that Joyce wouldn’t freak out.
Joyce is about to go home and get into a massive fight with her parents for supporting Becky. If it goes badly, her parents may pull her college tuition. Becky just guaranteed that Joyce’s best chance of getting her dad on her side won’t happen. So yes, Becky CAN be present, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a smart or kind thing for her to do. Some respect for Joyce and her awkward position would be nice.
Of course it would be kinder to Joyce to stay out of the situation, but if Becky wanted to join in the conversation, the only alternative was to hide, which has got to feel bad for someone who has gone through a lot to ‘be herself’. Becky has no obligation to go that far; it’s the difference between what someone can do and what someone should do. My point (to J) was that to ‘hate people like her’, just because her kindness isn’t self-sacrificing to the point J demands, is unfair. I think Becky is still essentially ‘kind’, and that not doing the ‘kinder’ thing in this instance doesn’t mean that she’s doing anything wrong.
I’m not sure Becky changed anything here. It’s not like the confrontation over Becky wasn’t going to happen anyway.
It might even be that seeing the actual Becky again and having her be the same obnoxious, adorable kid he knows as Joyce’s best friend will help him think of her that way instead of as some abstract representation of evil lesbian sin.
That’s actually one of the things that confuses me.
Some people seem to think that Becky’s personality is entirely new. That she started being loud and embarrassing Joyce after she came out of the closet.
Seems more likely to me that being out of the closet is the only new thing. All the rest is the same Becky Joyce became best friends with…though she probably hid it from their parents.
Given that in the very first strip, Becky joked about an “Inaugural Poop”, I think that’s pretty solidly canon.
How much she hid any of that from their parents is less clear.
A shark needs to eat to live a bigot won’t die if they don’t prey upon others that’s a ridiculous comparison that places the blame for any horribleness that Hank directs at Becky onto her. Don’t victim blame dude.
I’m not. I just hate the phrase “X has a RIGHT to do X” as if having a right to do it makes it fine to do it. Every situation is different and in this particular situation, if things go south it’s not just herself that might get hurt. Becky may be a victim who’s been through some hard shit, but that doesn’t mean her actions only affect her. The bigot in that metaphor isn’t the shark. The shark is any kind of threat to oneself or others. This situation could turn out fine with nothing bad happening at all. But now that Becky’s just swum out to the deep end we’ll just have to wait and see if there are really sharks out there, and if Joyce will end up getting hurt saving her.
Having a right to do something actually does make it fine to do it, by definition. It’s a simplification, because it assumes that all other rights and responsibilities are being upheld by the person exercising their right; your argument is essentially that Becky has a responsibility here, for her own or Joyce’s safety, that should be limiting her rights.
A threat posed by Hank is Hank’s fault, not Becky’s, even if her actions make the threat from Hank greater. Becky is hurting no-one; she’s just not going out of her way to protect anyone. I don’t think she has a responsibility to protect anyone in these circumstances, since she has the right (hahaha) to assume that Hank will behave in a decent manner. To put the responsibility on the victim to prevent the aggressor’s actions is classic victim-blaming, I’m sorry to say, although I don’t like to use such a loaded term; in my opinion, it comes down to a flaw in your analogy: these ‘sharks’ aren’t just uncontrollable forces of nature. They’re controlled by Hank.
I guess in that same way Joyce has the right to completely abandon Becky and side with her dad if things go south. Certainly would be out of character but she does have the right to do it. She has no responsibility to protect anyone.
She took that responsibility on herself when she said that she would support Becky, besides the fact that siding with her dad would violate Becky’s rights regarding how she’s treated.
Sure you can. Sharks don’t eat people, they eat seals. They only bite people because they mistake them for seals. So if one bites you it is calling you a seal.
Specially not anyone who lived their whole lives on the ocean, and was literally raised by sharks, and who are sharks themselves except they’re… vegan sharks?
I’d say a better metaphor would be a Dolphin among sharks. Then again Dolphins are total badasses who bop sharks with their noses cuz they know sharks hate that shit.
But why does Joyce look so surprised in the last panel today?
I think Becky offered to come and support Joyce, but they left it ambiguous, and foolishly didn’t plan how to tell the Browns she might drop in.
I think it’s likely that Joyce just pushed it out of her consciousness as one more thing to worry about – she doesn’t want drama on Becky – and is now worrying for her.
I don’t think Becky coming along is in any way a bad thing for Joyce, or going to make her life harder. A friendly presence is incredibly important
Dorothy isn’t involving herself in this conversation. Neither is Walky, or Sarah, or anyone else Joyce knows, because they all know that this is a delicate situation and talking to her dad might make things worse for Joyce. So either Becky is less socially adept than Walky, or she has decided that she’s perfectly willing to hurt Joyce as long as she gets to make sure a homophobe knows she exists. And while that is her right, it’s also a shitty thing for a friend to do.
…pretty sure Becky’s best friend since time immemorial’s dad knows she exists. What, is she just supposed to stop interacting with people she’s known since she was kneehigh to a grasshopper just cause she’s gay now?
Yes. Gay people should hide in the background feeling sorry for themselves until they can be used by their straight acquaintances to make a big show about how said acquaintance supporting them has made them grow as a person. And then they retire immediately back into the background having fulfilled their narrative role.
So it is written in the Sitcom Tome. So shall it be done.
I now have the mental image of a priest walking around a place of worship with an elaborately dressed scroll labeled “Holy Scripts of Sitcom” while people touch the thing with their “TV Prayer Books”. It’s kinda of absurd, and now the image won’t get out of my head.
Everyone else is hiding in the background. Yes, in a perfect world, Becky wouldn’t have to hide. This isn’t a perfect world, and Joyce is about to go through hell for Becky again. The least Becky could do is show the basic social restraint of Walky and not make things any harder on Joyce than they already are.
This is not about Becky being out on the street, at work, or in class. Joyce is about to go off and defend Becky and their continuing friendship to her parents, who have significant power over her life and her emotional well-being. That’s a really tough conversation to have, and if Joyce screws up she’s homeless. Becky came downstairs, went into the lobby, and inserted herself into that conversation. That’s not being out, that’s actively looking for an argument and not caring if Joyce gets caught in the crossfire.
I think the real issue, more than Becky being lesbian (which really shouldn’t be an issue, cmon world get yo shit together) is that right now she represents a lot of instability in regards to Joyce. I’m not saying she should have to hide herself, she is Joyce’s best friend after all. That being said, I have seen when my very being with my friend escalates the situation, even with a family I was once close with.
Yes, she has every right to speak to Joyce’s father but it is also true that maybe she could have waited a little longer. Felt out the situation a bit more and worked out how to play it.
I’ve personally always had trouble understanding how to act around others, which mask i should wear because no one has ever seen me be myself and not alienated me. As a result, I always go into a conversation the same way I was taught to fight, tentative moves to see what is happening before I wade deeper.
Becky is a lot braver than me but if I am understanding the situation right maybe Joyce had an actual plan about how she was going to handle all of what has been happening. It is her father and surely she knows how to deal with him better than Becky? Maybe Joyce had no plan but wasn’t it worth waiting a little to see?
Becky definitely needs to be a part of this but maybe this was a time she should have trusted in her friend’s ability to bring her into the conversation in a way that gave the both of them a good place to fight from if they had to fight.
The flip side is Becky is feeling hurt and maybe a little lost? These are her best friends parents and now the closest to parents she has, it might be unreasonable to expect her to not come say hi to them. Mr Brown was presumably a kind man to her growing up, why would she expect to have to fight him in the first place? We expect her to handle the situation with absolute foresight and perfection when in reality Becky is dealing with it in the way she thinks is best. It may even be the best way to deal with it, time will tell.
I hope I have explained myself clearly but I don’t often comment!
She’s not Dorothy, the atheist friend. She’s Becky, childhood friend. Hank and Carol aren’t just “Joyce’s parents”, they’re people she’s known for years. They’re the closest thing she has to remaining family. And they know that their daughter and her have been through thick and thin together.
This is not a stranger she has met once under ill circumstances once. These are people she’s probably spent dinner with and slept over at their house on many occasions. She knows Hank, personally, has established relationships with him and under normal circumstances would have no reason to assume that this behavior would be taking poorly. After all, she’s acting normally, breaking the ice, making things light and small-talk filled. The only “tension” she’s adding is her existence and well… her existence was going to come up this weekend. It would have to given recent events.
Also, it’s still not clear whether or not Becky is actually supposed to be coming along here rather than just lending moral support, so yeah, approaching and saying hi would be very important at this moment.
Yep. Becky probably considers the Brown household her second home, just judging from how Joyce was talking about Toedad. She quite possibly calls Joyce’s parents Mom and Dad. There is a History there that I’m not sure how people are overlooking.
When it’s considered from that perspective, it’s possible that this isn’t even something she’s doing on purpose at all; she’s forgetting that she can’t just jump into the conversation here the way she normally would. Or, her instinctive comfort with Joyce’s dad is overriding the more rational concerns, and she thinks it will be fine anyway.
@Shiro – only thing I can think of is that they’re not familiar with how small-town best-friendships work among children. My best friend growing up and I spent almost as much time at the other’s house as we did at our own. It can safely be assumed, from how Joyce spoke about Toedad, that they had the same level of familiarity with each other’s parents.
Hank and Carol aren’t strangers or near-strangers to Becky, they’re practically a second set of parents.
These are not normal circumstances, though, and Becky would have to be a moron not to recognize how badly this situation could go. Joyce might get pulled out of college and end up on the street after this weekend, and Becky just made that more likely. That’s not the action of someone who actually cares about Joyce.
I think the logic goes:
– Becky inserts herself into the conversation
– Father makes some sort of homophobic comments
– Joyce defends Becky against her dad
– Entire weekend is basically a big fight, with her parents concentrating more on Becky’s homosexuality than a gun-toting nutbag
– Parents stop funding Joyce’s tuition
– Because Joyce has to withdraw from college, Becky might too (although perhaps she might have enough support from Dina, Dorothy and others to continue sticking around.)
What might be preferred is:
– Joyce talks with her dad, feels out the situation (to see if her parents are OK with her still being friends with Becky)
– If she finds out that her parents are raging homophobes she can avoid breaching the subject altogether, or at least put it in a context that might result in sympathy. (i.e. the first thing that she could mention was the danger of toedad waving a gun, rather than Becky’s homosexuality. Plant the seeds in their mind that the danger is not “the gays” but the people trying to harm “the gays”)
She already told them on the phone that Becky likes girls and that she’s supporting Becky no matter what. It’s why Ross was there. It’s why Becky was there.
There is no way to avoid the subject. It can still be deflected to the actual danger, but we’ve already seen her mother take that back to “But you understand why…”
Oh yes, I’m sure the issue of Becky was definitely going to come up on the weekend.
Some people are just suggesting Joyce might wanted things to be brought up on her own terms (i.e. emphasizing the gun-toting lunatic) rather than have things brought up on other people’s terms.
I dont remember seeing talk of Becky ever going with Joyce (and if I’m wrong I’m wrong, I literally do not remember it) but even if she is, I’d say that’s a bad call in and of itself. Yes, Beck has the right to do whatever she wants, orientation notwithstanding, however she doesn’t live in a vacuum.
Right now her friend is suffering. It’s obvious and she can tell Joyce is distressed. Joyce wants and needs this weekend to go well, so she can still feel like she has a family who can support and love her, since it’s clear that her friends simply aren’t cutting it.
Becky being there, either to just say hi or to actually go home with her only serves to take that away from Joyce. Moreover, this action ACTIVELY HURTS BECKY, since right now she’s still living on campus in secret. Joyce’s parents are almost as bad as Becky’s, so when it does inevitably come up that Becky is gay, and hiding in Joyce’s dad’s old college campus for refuge, there are going to be some issues. At best he scolds Joyce for supporting Becky, at worst he calls the school and outs her.
Becky is accidentally forcing Joyce to make a choice at this specific point: defend Becky and risk the nice weekend/relationship with her dad that she really needs, or throw Becky under the bus and have everyone walk away sad. Joyce isn’t in the mental position to make the correct choice (defend Becky) so this can only end badly.
This is similar to the time Becky loudly announced that she was there, and gay, while living in Joyce’s room, thus putting them both at risk.
Becky isn’t a bad person, and has the right to exist and go wherever she pleases, but a little tact goes a long way, especially when you can lose your home at any moment, AND your friend that you’re stressing is stilly getting over some severe trauma and is in need of familial support.
For the rest of it… well, as someone who’s repeatedly been told I need to hide myself away and go in the closet and not be, you know, quite as visible because of how I am, I really can’t agree less with any of it. I’m really sorry, but I just can’t.
I have more to say, but it’s clear that this means a lot to you and there’s no point in making a stranger’s day worse just because I disagree their interpretation of a character. I’m sorry if this has caused you any distress.
Neither Joyce nor Becky there is concerned with themselves – Becky is offering to go to be Joyce’s support, Joyce is voicing concern that that will make things worse for Becky.
Yeah, I think they could both do to be more selfish, to check in with their own needs and express them to each other. LIke Becky might say “I’d love to come, because I want to support you, and because this is as close as I can get to having my family.” And Joyce might say, “But, this weekend really needs to stabilize me, and I’m already terrified of how they’ll react to my changed views — can we please wait til next time, they’ll still be your family.” But they’re both way too selfless to hash that out.
Leorale- Yeah, I’ve fallen into that trap with partners before where we’re both so focused on trying to do right by the other and fully support them that we forget to care for ourselves or even vocalize our needs and then things go wrong because of it.
It could be going the other, more obvious, way too. “I’m scared to go, but I want to go to support you.” and “I really want you there, but I don’t want to put you through it”.
Which is essentially what they said.
I’m not sure I really understand either side of this whole argument. One side seems to be “I HATE BECKY AND EVERYTHING ABOUT HER GO DIE IN A FIRE AAAGGGHHH” and the other seems to be “if someone is not heteronormative or whatever else is mainstream then they are perfect and have no flaws.”
I think people should be allowed to dislike Becky for reasons other than her being a lesbian. I mean, the only times I can stand Becky is when she’s with Dina (those two together are absolutely adorable I want them to be together forever). But all of her interactions with everyone else just rub me the wrong way. It’s not cause she’s gay though. It’s cause she’s obnoxious. And yeah sure she’s been through a lot but I don’t think that’s an excuse to be obnoxious. For instance, this guy I used to know had cancer and beat it but then decided that this gave him the right to just go around putting everyone else around him down and treating them all like crap. I dunno if he was like that before the cancer but he seemed to think it was justified. And we haven’t seen much of Becky before she escaped Anderson and Toedad to get to IU but she was probably like this before all of that.
No, no one deserves to have happen to them what Toedad did to her and if I had been there I wouldn’t’ve stopped with a punch like Joyce did. I would’ve beat him to death because, whether I like Becky or not, none of that is OK. The “therapy camp” or whatever it’s called, bringing a gun to school and chasing her down, threatening her and a bunch of other kids with a gun, none of that is OK no matter how obnoxious she is. But I still find her obnoxious most of the time.
Plus here, Joyce is going to be in a world of trouble when she gets home because she has a gay friend. Most of us don’t think being gay is bad but her parents think it’s a sin that will send you to hell, so to THEM it’s like as if Joyce is friends with a murderer cause murder is also a sin. Obviously it’s not clear whether they decided one way or the other whether Becky was coming home with Joyce or not but judging from their faces in the last panel if they did 100% decide that Becky was going nobody bothered to tell the Browns. And your equivalent-to-a-murderer (again, in her parents’s eyes, not mine) friend just interjecting themselves into a convo is inviting a lot of crap onto Joyce. (Note: I don’t like Joyce either, so I’m not sitting here defending her cause she’s the straight white chick. I’m just saying this random interjection into a convo with someone who equates your lifestyle with being a murderer is probably not the best thing to do, tact-wise. If you murder someone it doesn’t matter how long you’ve known your friend’s parents. They’re still not gonna want you around).
Also I can’t sleep so I hope this makes sense. Basically, Becky didn’t deserve the bad stuff that happened to her and I wish it hadn’t happened to her and Toedad needs to burst into flames but that doesn’t mean she can be obnoxious or invite problems for someone else. She could’ve at least waited for Joyce to call her over or something.
Where did anyone say Becky was perfect with no flaws? I see people saying that Becky isn’t the worst for wanting to talk to someone she’s known all her life. I can’t see anywhere way someone says Becky is perfect.
I love Becky’s flaws. Her jealousy of Dorothy, her habit of repressing all her hurt. They’re very humanizing and flesh out her character.
I’m just having a really hard time seeing how “talking to Joyce’s dad in a perfectly normal way” qualifies as a flaw and frankly it’s a bit offputting and triggering given my particular set of life experiences.
Becky, Carla, Jocelyne, etc… all have flaws. I just wish more times in these sorts of threads, people actually responded to the flaws they do have rather than the flaws they make up or project on to them in order to justify victim blaming.
I think you (Dragon_Nataku) misread the argument. Yes, one side is basically arguing that Becky is evil–saying she is inconsiderate and selfish and a horrible friend. But no one on the other side says she has no flaws. They’re the same people upthread who acknowledge that she’s loud and has impulse control problems.
It’s just that the argument that she is horrible is just so baseless. It seems to only be because this one action has a chance of being bad for Joyce. And just a chance, since there are many more ways it can go.
They disregard every other time that Becky has been completely selfless, and they disregard the flaw she’s had since the beginning–her impulsive behavior.
And, what’s worse, Becky isn’t doing anything wrong. She’s talking to someone she knows. She was not asked not to get involved, and it’s possible she thinks she is going back with them. They’re mad at her for doing something no one has given her any reason to not do.
So it reads a whole lot like those people who think that just being there and being gay is wrong. Sure, gya people have a right to do be out in public, but it’s still selfish and wrong. Ignore everything else about these people, just don’t make Joyceme feel a little bad.
This weekend isn’t going to go well and be a nice relaxing, supportive experience for Joyce no matter what Becky does. Since that phone call to her mom, Joyce knows it well.
Her parents might be thinking that she needs support, but they’re also thinking they need to get her back on the right path and away from all these secular influences, like atheists and Becky, so that she can make proper Godly choices. Like rejecting Becky.
No matter what Becky did here, whether she hid or whether she talks to Hank, this visit was always going to be a major stressor for Joyce. She was going to be on the defensive the whole time, trying to justify her choices to her parents and probably being pushed to question them herself.
If Becky comes along, that might bring the conflict a little more to the fore, but it also gives Joyce an ally and a reminder what she’s fighting for. Likely Becky being there would only shorten that awkward period where they’re all carefully being nice and avoiding the elephant in the room.
As I said before, Becky actually being there reminds them that this isn’t an abstract problem. They’re not rejecting the concept of lesbians, they’re rejecting Becky, who they’ve known and cared for all her life. And that is the single biggest thing that could sway them. In recent years it’s been by far the biggest factor in changing people’s attitudes towards gays – knowing them personally.
Yeah. And it means that there’s actually a better chance of it going well than if she doesn’t make herself present or come along.
Without her, it’s an abstract problem of how could you let Satan into your home. With her, it humanizes it, makes it clear that this is about Becky, the human being, with fears and emotions and a long storied history with their daughter. Even if they can’t look past their homophobia, maybe they’ll be able to understand why their daughter “defied” them.
On the bright side this is Joyce’s dad. From past appearances, it’s her mom who’s the more… vocal one on objections who whom Joyce associates with. Dad was kinda just there. So this may not be as bad as it could be. (*Knock-wood*)
I’m guessing the way the prior visit went may be why it’s only dad picking her up for the weekend.
It is not a shitty thing to do. It is not shitty to exist and to be friendly with a long close friend’s parents, especially when you’re probably coming along.
Honestly, we have very little to go on as far as him being less vocal than his wife is concerned. We know he backed down because he agreed with Joyce’s interpretation of a particular Bible quote. That doesn’t imply by default that he will be as agreeable in regards to Becky and what the Bible says about her.
As far as I can tell the very worst this could be called is a bit incautious. But that’s Becky in a nutshell. She’s Roosevelt’s “Man in the arena”. Things could go wrong here, certainly, but… well, let’s go over the alternative.
In her situation I would have been more cautious, but I’d never know that was the right choice. I would probably hide, not go on the trip “home” and forever wonder how things would have gone had I shown up. I probably would have told myself that everyone would be better off if I just quietly slipped away and let them get on without me, just in case. And I could never have been proven wrong, exactly. That way lies an ingrown life, and that’s what calling her behavior shitty inadvertently _demands_.
If Joyce wanted a Becky-free visit with her dad the onus is on Joyce to tell Becky that. Since we haven’t seen any such exchange we can’t expect Becky to act as if that exchange had taken place.
I wouldn’t call it shitty (malicious), just dumb and impulsive. If Joyce’s dad had a fundie freakout, Joyce would be forced to instantly choose between friend or family, not easy even when one is in the wrong.
Well yeah. Lesbians are visible. Thus, they are rude and ruining everything by existing all visibly around people whereas bisexuals are allowed to stand near people so long as they don’t move objects (cause this would clearly make people worried that the location was haunted).
I actually like to stand near people quietly and then move something nearby, just to watch them jump and say, “I just saw that move … Do you think this place has bisexuals?”
That reminds me of something that happened in DC comics. One time, in the gordian knot that is the continuity of Legion of Super Heroes, they introduced the first bisexual member of the team.
No, the first bi character was Dawnstar (revealed as such about…7 years ago, IIRC). Post-Zero Hour IK was gay.
(Arguably, there was Element Lad, but the intent was for him to be gay and just seeing through the ‘female’ mask when Sean was pretending to be Shvaughn, because in the 30th century, you should still assume homophobia, apparently.)
Jim Shooter, of all people, was severely hampered by editorial over that.
He initially wanted Ferro Lad to be black, but having a black dude in a series about a utopian future where mankind has peacefully resolved all conflict and joined a welcoming intergalactic civilization was apparently too much.
Jim Shooter is also the guy who insisted to John Byrne (again; of all people) that Northstar wasn’t allowed to be a gay in the 1980’s, so instead they revealed he was part elf.
Jesus Christ no it’s not derogatory what’s wrong with you 0.0
(and i don’t fucking mean autism, i’m autistic too and am capable of respecting bipolar, borderline and shizophrenic people as people jesus christ what the fuck seriously)
Maybe because “mental disorder” is outdated terminology that along most mental illness communities I know and deal with, the opinion is that it should go the way of the R-word?
(i.e., though I didn’t phrase it well, I was also opposed to referring to bipolar disorder as a “mental disorder”. Apologies for bad phrasing which I can see now had exactly the opposite of my intended implication.
Also apologies for wording which played into societal ableism. I am not opposed to being grouped in with people with bipolar. I am opposed to the use of outdated and othering phrasing.
No. It’s the scientific term. The developmental problems with autism happen in the brain, making it a mental disorder. It’s listed in the DSM-5: the “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition.”
Now, if this were innocuous, I’d let it slide and let you think what you want. But trying to make a normal term offensive actually causes harm to our cause. Yes, our cause–I have a mental disorder, too.
Saying “mental disorder” is derogatory, when it is factually not used in that manner, only makes us look like we are not in touch with reality, and thus makes our real concerns seem like they could be “crazy,” too.
Anyway. I don’t think this is a matter of whether she has a right To do whatever she pleases (she does). It’s more general courtesy, because regardless of what it’s about, you should think about how people feel.
I mean, one of my good friends parents’ are extremely right wing scientologists, and he’s transgender and bi. That doesn’t mean I can pop in front of their house and make jokes the day after their dog died, even if I do exactly that normally. It doesn’t matter that I’m gay – I might have a right (and even a strong urge) to resort to humor, and have a right to be there, but that doesn’t make it any less insensitive.
It’s obviously not exactly the same here, but I think the same principle applies. I’m don’t think Becky’s doing anything terrible, and if Joyce and her dad are reasonable they’ll roll with it (understanding that Becky’s been through a lot, even more than Joyce, and it’s a way of dealing with it). But that doesn’t make it ideal.
Oh noes, I’m awful, reading down a comment thread and commenting. Bad Cerberus, no triple biscuit.
Also, the “dog dying” here is her, Becky, being targeted by her dad, involving a gun being pulled on her personally, leading to her personally being kidnapped and being involved in a car crash.
Becky was rather central to this whole “dog dying” thing that has Joyce’s parents wanting to show their support to Joyce. And she’s not entering in with her sushi joke while talking heavy stuff. They’re making small talk. Becky entered in with small talk of her own.
I’m really not getting how so so many people are viewing this as nefarious or injurious to Joyce other than by blaming her for societal homophobia.
I don’t think anyone’s saying it’s nefarious, per se. Becky’s trying to help things in her own Becky way, it’s just, judging by the expressions on the Browns’ faces, it’s kinda startling them right now. I wouldn’t call it bad, but I wouldn’t say Becky’s being perfect either. Especially if it ends up escalating much.
Yes, you wouldn’t barge into their house. But are you saying you wouldn’t talk to them in public? Because that’s what’s going on here. Becky is talking to her two friends in public. They weren’t grieving over their “dog dying”, or anything. And she didn’t bring the subject up.
You mention ideals, but what is ideal for Becky? That she just hide herself from her best friend and someone who has been a father figure in her life?
I’m not saying everything is ideal for Joyce. And I can see an argument that Becky is being a bit of her impulsive self and hasn’t thought things through.
But the idea that she’s wrong for talking to them just doesn’t work.
About the only thing Becky’s really guilty of here is lack of foresight. If Joyce’s dad decides to be a dick about her being there, that’s HIS fault, not hers.
Becky practically grew up in the Brown household. She and Joyce were as close as sisters you can be. She just lost her family. This man is the closest thing she has to a father.
I know. This is the scrappy remains of anything she could remotely call a family here. People are really not paying attention to what exactly they’re accidentally saying here.
Not so much replying to you as much as replying to this thread in general
You guys… Hank is NOT Ross. Mr. Brown is NOT Toedad. Papa Joyce is NOT Papa Becky, although he MIGHT AS WELL BE. Hank has had another child rebel to him (Joshua IIRC). I find it doubtful that he’s never of LGBT issues, having an LGBT daughter (Jocelyne). Regardless of dogma, he can’t be as ignorant as Toedad, as he’s had to deal with difference.
Becky’s been raised with him. She’s family to him, the Browns are family to her. They were probably her introduction to a next degree of freedom -after all, Toedad didn’t even let Becky have a cell phone, so going to Joyce’s was probably her chance to “get wild” and watch Psalmy until midnight or whatever. Her haircut is the only thing that screams lesbian about her, and that’s only a stereotype. He’s heard of her lesbianism, but he probably also heard of MacIntyre going on a shooting spree, causing a traffic incident, and hurting his youngest daughter. There are too many stakes. It’s not as black and white as with Toedad. And Becky might or might not know this consciously, but she most definitely can feel the conflict inconsciously. But historically he’s been part of one of her safe spaces, an a space that she has not yet established as unsafe.
Joyce already left her parents a voice mail lighting fire to that bridge. At this point, the stakes are already lower, as they don’t want that and a week later they might have thought over bargains and let the fire de out a little.
God I’m bad at meta and analysis, like I’m the kind of dude who forgets half of the strips, doesn’t associate implicit shit, and EVEN I can tell Becky’s not being a selfish bull in a china shop here. Careless? Definitely! But does she even have a choice being not?
TL;DR: Give the poor man a chance, and don’t jump at Becky’s throat for doing so.
Yes, but did it have to happen now? They were just starting to get father-daughtery. We were in the clear, at least we would’ve been till she got home and things innevitably heated up.
You mean until they were home and Joyce was completely isolated from any support? I’m hoping this is Becky making it clear she’s going to be tagging along because the last thing I want is Joyce being stuck dealing with this stuff with her parents alone.
I feel I should explain that my brain played a long game of broken telephone to pick that quote, and as an afterthought I tacked on the bit about Atlas Shrugged. I was sleepy and I thought “hey, loving yourself and finding the world inadequate is a very Ayn Rand idea, isn’t it?” I did not mean to imply anything about Willis’ philosophical motivations for writing that line. I’m sure he’s all about friendship and teamwork and frequently donates to disabled puppies
“Joyce, why are you keeping this a secret. I’m not raising you to do disgusting unchristian things like…Eating Sushi. If jesus wanted us to eat raw fish he wouldn’t have invented the Grill. Oh, hi Becky”
Of course we have. Jesus fought Foreman for the heavyweight title back in 96. If I recall correctly, Foreman won by KO, and the entire earth was destroyed.
The bible doesn’t discuss it but Jesus also gave everyone a personal Grill, and told them that they must eat their fish prepared in this fashion, or not at all. He then got in his hot rod with a couple of his groupies and zoomed off to create nutella and compose Bohemian Rapsody.
Yeah, that’s the heartbreaking part in all this. Becky has no family left. This is the closest thing still remaining.
And she so desperately wants to connect to it, but Hank and Carol will probably never see Becky, the brash little kid who’s been their daughter’s friend since forever. They’ll just see her sexuality and what their religion has called on them to view that as.
And the worst part is if she’s rejected here she won’t actually show it. She’ll bury it until she’s alone. And she’ll cry there where no one can see her. Lamenting a family ripped from her life. Simply because she is.
And now I remember why I dislike Becky. Yes, her life is unfair and sucky, but Joyce is being incredibly nice to her(as a friend should), the least Becky could do is not make Joyce’s already-stressful weekend even worse.
It was almost two months ago, so I guess I forgot. Although the comic kind of left it up in the air what the decision was and whether or not Joyce actually wants Becky there for family weekend.
Knowing that it actually was the plan (or at least a plan) for Becky to come with, it seems like she probably just popped up so awkwardly because this situation is fucked up, she had no ideas for how to enter the conversation naturally, and so she defaulted to her usual “full steam ahead!” coping strategy.
Joyce’s worldview is already cracking. Becky’s just guaranteeing that Joyce won’t get a chance to peacefully talk with her father and try to get him to back her before the inevitable explosion with her mom. Not to mention that Joyce had a gun pointed at her earlier this week and might reasonably need a non-stressful interaction with her dad before she snaps. This is the equivalent of Mike’s “Hail Satan” but from a character Willis seems convinced we should like.
Mike deliberately antagonizes Carol in a way most likely to put multiple people in danger: Comment thread loves it, jokes about how much Mike uses his power of assholitude to make everyone better people.
Becky has normal small talk with people she’s known her entire life and may be going home with this weekend: How dare you Becky, have you no respect for how hard you’re making Joyce’s life?
And that is very illustrative. All the more illustrative for all the people slagging on Carla in the last arc and Carla’s comment on the unreasonable expectation to be “perfect” if you’re marginalized.
I’m trying to figure out if the issue is that these commentors are homophobes/transphobes or that they’re misogynists. Or whether it’s some intersection of all three. None of the dudes have received this treatment, but then again, they’ve all been “straight” as far as heteronormativity tells us.
There are some readers who are only interested in Danny because he’s bi, yeah. I mean, there have been genuine requests for him to cheat, disappointment that he won’t, and calls that he get over being monogamous because it gets in the way of him fucking a dude like he is actually required to by law. It’s all a big pile of gross as fuck sexual objectifying filtered through the lens of it being acceptable as long as its in the name of Danny being the right kind of queer man.
At the same time, Danny is pretty much the only bi dude in popular webcomics, and the only bi dude in any fiction I consume. I can’t understate how important it is that Danny just being bi, and seeing him deal with that in the context of what it means to him and in his relationship with Amber, is for bisexual male readers. We don’t get representation, period, and when we do it’s always, always about us being magical sex pixies who just want to stick our dicks into any hole that wriggles, fundamentally incapable of fidelity, or about how our relationships with women don’t count, because as queer men, we need to be queer in a visibly queer way for us to actually count to more privileged straight and gay folks, because to suggest otherwise means we’re faking having valid attractions to both genders; that we’re just putting on a little gay hat for a night on the town before going back into our straight hiding holes.
To be fair, I don’t know if that’s so much because of Danny’s bisexuality as because Danny’s only other notable defining characteristic up until that point was his haplessness.
Yes, how dare she exist in the presence of a bigot doesn’t she know it’s her responsibility to disappear lest she FORCE him to be an awful human bieng?
This is probably the first time Hank has seen Becky with her new haircut. Maybe he’ll experience a 404 error and by the time he reboots he’ll have forgotten what he was going to say.
I… don’t think she’s here to antagonize the Browns? After staring down the barrel of homelessness and poverty I don’t think she’d try to do anything that might force Joyce to confront her parents, even though it would be understandable that Becky would be angry and spiteful towards them too after everything that’s happened.
Is this… an attempt to protect Joyce somehow…? Just wanting to know for herself what’s going on…? I really have no clue where this is going.
Actually, could this be an attempt to hitch a ride back to their hometown to pick up her legal docs? She was recently thinking about jobs so she might be after her social security card and birth certificate. Maybe she could even guilt some adults in their hometown into helping out. But why the hell would she do that without getting Joyce on board first?
Thanks for the reminder. I totally forgot about that until winter posted a link a couple threads up.
My guess now is that there’s nothing to Becky’s awkward entrance than her just not knowing what the hell else to do. There’s not really any way that this could be not awkward anyway.
It wasn’t just Becky coming along they were discussing, it was Becky coming along to act as moral support for Joyce. Which Joyce hesitated to accept because it might cause stress for Becky.
She came right out and said ‘no’ to Dorothy. (Although, honestly, that might have been for Dorothy’s comfort. She just never said why.) It’s doubtful she wouldn’t to the best friend she’s always been open with before.
(Yes, I understand that the South isn’t Nazi Germany. I’m also aware that the South probably isn’t even normal German. Finally, we should all be aware that, despite the association with sieg heil, saying ‘Heil’ still really only amounts to ‘Hail’ or ‘Hear, hear’ in German. Shoosh.)
Why? What has she done here that wouldn’t be completely acceptable if she was straight? Say hi to her best friend’s father who she’s know pretty much her entire life? Make a joke about said best friend’s pickiness? Literally the only thing she’s doing here that could be “objectionable” is be gay.
In fairness, it wouldn’t really matter why Joyce and her parents were going to have a big fight about Becky. It’s just happens that being gay is the reason they’re going to.
Mind you, I still don’t have a problem with Becky doing it and I hope she comes along.
Except that is not the case. Becky has been at the center of an extremely disruptive event. Joyce needs this time to deal with her parents in her own way. Becky’s injection of herself is just as annoying as Dorothy trying to change Joyce in Gender Studies class when Joyce is clearly has a crisis of faith.
My position isn’t because Becky is gay. I’ve been the kicked out gay kid. Ben there, am that. There is a such thing as tact and Becky is not demonstrating it.
I don’t really… understand why Becky felt the need to make her presence known here. Even disregarding the discomfort it might be bringing up for Joyce, I probably wouldn’t want to be in the same room as Mr Brown for fear of stirring up shit and getting kicked out of the dorm.
Becky might be takin’ a risk here but Becky’s also been Joyce’s friend for most of her life. You can’t just assume all fundies are gun-toting Christians. I’m sure she actually LIKES the Browns and just wants to see if they’re down with Taco Tuesdays.
ABORT THE BALLOONS! ABORT THE BABIES!
But seriously, Hank had damn well better be nice to Becky. She’s his daughter’s best childhood friend. If he’s mean to her now just because she’s a lesbian, I’ll be… well, actually, I won’t be too surprised. But I will be VERY ANGRY.
Ruth: This really hot girl in my dorm is an alcoholic and a drunk driver! That really makes me angry for some reason. I better go get counseling to deal with my problems so I don’t take it out on her for no reason.
So much this. Also, does everyone who’s saying that realize that what they’re saying is “How dare you Becky? How dare you be alive in a way that inconveniences Joyce’s ability to try and lie her way through the weekend?”
Like, Becky exists. Becky is probably coming along. Becky at the least should say hi to the closest thing she has to remaining family and show her humanity given that Joyce will definitely be having a fight this weekend over her moral choice to not literally leave her out in the cold.
Becky is doing nothing wrong unless you believe “inconvenient” people should be hidden out of sight so they won’t “upset” people.
And being one of those “inconvenient” people? One of those people who people straight up tell on the regular that I am doing something wrong walking down the street, it’s really not okay to be doing that.
It doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t make one feel fully human.
Or until our “allies” need/want to make a big dramatic show of how they Do Ally so well. Without asking us about what we want/need out of an ally, and then getting all offended when we get annoyed at them for either steamrolling over our own wants (case in point: if you want to be an ally, make no assumptions about whether I’m comfortable with the entire room knowing I’m bi – you can call out a stranger using bigoted language without using me as your prop. I assure you, there is pretty much no situation in which I am comfortable coming out to the entire room – not the least of which is because being an out bi woman is like having a superpowered creep magnet implanted and then I’m the one who has to deal with groping and creepy propositions for threesomes all night), or making a situation worse, or making a situation about them.
FYI: same holds true for disabled and chronically ill people – you’d be amazed how often I get the cops called on me because I “must be on drugs” (read: am being visibly autistic in public because I made the mistake of thinking nobody was watching and let my guard down a bit) or how often people threaten me with violence for asking them not to expose me to things that make it hard to breathe (like asking smokers to abide by provincial law requiring them to be a certain distance from the entrance of a building) or how often I get told I should “just stay home” if [asthma trigger] bothers me so damn much. Bonus points if I get told that by someone wearing so much perfume you can smell them 20 feet away in a supposedly scent-reduced environment, or by someone who just emptied half a bottle of perfume into the women’s washroom so they can pretend their shit doesn’t stink.
Becky volunteered to come home with Joyce, and I don’t recall Joyce ever telling her no. So why all the surprised comments? She was going to have to make Hank aware of her presence at some point.
Because the comic plays it like a surprise. Joyce doesn’t ask if Becky’s packed (even though her dad got here earlier than expected), Becky is hiding around the corner with the others rather than walking down with Joyce to meet him, and when she pops up Joyce has a worried/surprised look on her face. I mean, they may have totally planned it and Becky was just hanging back to give Joyce a moment with her dad, but the presentation of the strip is “unexpected Becky is unexpected”.
I do have to say that starting your sushi-eating career with a whole shrimp seems like a poor choice. Tuna, maybe wel or a California roll are probably easier for a newbie.
Becky is only guilty of wishful thinking here, I think. She sees Joyce’s dad behaving in a friendly, normal, happy way and probably thinks everything’s okay between them despite the dad knowing about what happened. This is an adult she’s known since she was a child, and probably views as an extended family member. I think she wants pretty desperately to have some kind of acceptance/normalcy from her old life, and thinking that her friend’s dad isn’t going to outright spit venom in her face is not an unreasonable thought.
She’s probably had tons of exchanges like this with Mr. Brown, and in fact was with the Browns when they dropped off Joyce. It reads like her trying to pick up an old rapport. From what she said about the Chik Fil A protest, these parents are the more subtly homophobic ones: “It’s not about hate, it’s about choice,” which might make her feel like they’ll be more likely to be friendly with her in a ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ way.
So yeah, this might not have been a wise decision, but it’s one I sympathize with and find more sad than anything else. I certainly don’t like that she’s garnering immediate hatred in the comment section for it, and the tone of it makes it read like people would rather her keep her head down and try to be invisible. She’s said nothing here that would upset either Joyce or her dad, it’s her presence that may be upsetting, and that’s not something I hate Becky for. I don’t hate her for trying to reach out and reconnect to another adult figure in her life that she hopes won’t spit in her face.
A nice interpretation of Becky’s action. And if true, it’s sad.
She is too decent basically to see that he is not going to react well, I have a feeling.
I really like Becky since she calmed down a bit after exploding onto the world scene. I think she’s strong, resilient, bright, funny and a good person.
But, I sit here staring at the last 3 strips, and see Becky’s face when Walky ran his mouth about Joyce and Dorothy’s pretend marriage in gender studies.
And I can’t see any reason why Becky would pop out, in full bloom, at this point, unless she is deliberately is trying to put Joyce on the spot.
Personally, the way Joyce has treated her or not treated her recently, I think it’s about time Becky gave a little back to Joyce.
Joyce hasn’t been mean, but she is so wrapped up in herself, as she usually is, that she was getting comfort FROM Becky at the car wreak – instead of GIVING it to Becky who surely needed her best friends attention.
Joyce needs to grow up in more ways than one, imo. We all have problems, they kill us or we grow up. Becky is growing up.
And yes, getting even is growing up under certain circumstances.
I can think of a reason why: Hank is basically a surrogate father to her, and she doesn’t realize that unlike Joyce, Hank and Carol don’t let their compassion and innate decency over-ride their ingrained bigotry.
(well, Carol doesn’t. Hank tries at least. Sort of. For his kids. While passive-aggressively reminding them of his religious interpretation on the subject. But at least he respects that his kids are good and well-meaning even if they don’t always make decisions he agrees with. Remains to be seen whether Becky counts as “of the kids” for this. And from experience, “hate the sin not the sinner” talk can still be pretty damn hurtful even if it’s intended well.)
Well now Becky is putting Joyce is a position where Joyce will have to defend her from her !@#$ father. But maybe it’s better they get this in the open, than pretend it isn’t there?
The question is, will Joyce defend her? I wonder.
Supposedly she really likes Dorothy, but refused her request to walk her downstairs because she’s an atheist.
Joyce has risked her life for Becky, and vice versa. Heck, when Becky came out, Joyce was willing to risk the wrath of God. I don’t think the wrath of Hank really compares.
Dorothy was asking Joyce if having her around would help. Joyce stated the fact that it wouldn’t. This isn’t Joyce rejecting or hurting Dorothy, it’s her acknowledging the obvious.
Becky is different than Dorothy here because:
1) unlike Dorothy, she’s actually going to come along and support Joyce all the way through, not leaving her without support in the face of her parents’ dissatisfaction with her choices;
2) unlike Dorothy, she’s Joyce’s childhood friend, having known her since forever, and is much more effective at actually lending Joyce emotional support just by being there;
3) unlike Dorothy, she’s known these people since forever too. She’s not just an ‘undesirable friend’ stranger to them, she’s their Becky. She might not make the situation as a whole less awkward, but she’s definitely going to ease some pressure off personally Joyce by taking it herself instead;
4) unlike Dorothy, she isn’t just there for Joyce. She’s there for herself. As Cerberus has mentioned numerous times already, these people are the closest Becky has to her own parents now, and they are well aware of that. She needs to clear the air there – find out for sure what this relationship is now going to be like – absolutely regardless of Joyce. That she’s actually going to help Joyce along the way is a nice bonus.
(And she is going to help Joyce. All the lectures of “lebianism is sin and Toedad had a point” that were going to be targeted at personally Joyce are now going to at least be shared between them, and that makes one hell of a difference)
“Senpai noticed me!!” is basically my default response anytime Cerberus responds to one of my comments. Unless they’re disagreeing with me then it’s more like “Oh no I have erred grievously.”
The really amusing bit will be when they get to the Brown home and Dina gets out of the car behind them. Having been completely unnoticed through the entire car ride.
Dina’s never been confirmed as bi, actually. The way she said that gender expression might not matter to indicated to me that she was pan, or more specifically panromantic since I also view her as ace.
Both Joyce and her dad have expressions that say, “oh crap.” Also for some reason I’m expecting Hank to say “Well, the sushi here is pretty awful. I remember needing a ton of soy sauce.”
More like “In my days, if you wanted sushi you had to go out in the street, all the way down to the coast, get on a ship and hunt the goddamn tuna by yourself.”
(Would Hank say “goddamn” though? I wonder if it counst as blasphemy)
Yep. Why the anti-Becky comments were so ferociously negative was baffling me at first. But then I figured out where the commenters were coming from.
These responses are predicated on the belief that lesbians should know that they are are considered offensive and not fully human. Consequently, they should be respectful of those people who loathe them. Because it would be very rude and insensitive to make those people uncomfortable.
Becky reaching out for the same reason Joyce was so shaken by toedad with a rifle. Because she has been safe with and cared for by the man standing in front of her, for her whole life. Which direction this goes is on him, not Becky.
You’re right. The part where she’s pointing to her vag and going “yeah, baby I like girls here” is really inappropriate and awkward… wait, what’s that? She didn’t do that? Instead she approached with a perfectly normal and humanizing bit of small-talk as she would with a long-time acquaintance she has known for many years?
Well, then, these sorts of comments just got a fuck of a lot more awkward then, didn’t they?
It’d be an interesting twist if Papa Joyce is actually uncomfortable because he’s unsure how to react to a kidnap victim. One who he knew from basic childhood and is terrified/sympathetic too.
Of course, I remember when I stopped being a fundamentalist. I actually had a lifestory somewhat similar to Willi, except I felt into fundamentalism rather than was indoctrinated for it so I don’t have an excuse. I became deeply ingrained in the belief system and started speaking all sorts of terrible crazy things. I also became a homophobe.
Then I went to work at a job with an openly lesbian boss. She was a nice person and it occurred to me, the first time I met her. “Wait, I’m supposed to be hateful to this person? There’s something wrong here.” So, I was just polite and after a week, realized I was a sick male bongo for behaving like this.
It was the beginning of the end for my fundamentalism because recognizing basic humanity and empathy is the enemy of all hate.
Because of family.
Because Joyce is her best friend in the whole world and she doesn’t want her to be alone.
Because she has known Hank her whole life and decided to put her head on the block to find out if all dads are terrible or just Ross.
Because her parents are gone, her school has kicked her out but the Browns still serve as a link to her old life.
Ok we’re doing this you know what why stop here let’s get two atheists out here alongside the smartass who you know is going to be a shit no matter what.
I want to test Hanks patient’s here like how much will you put up with and if he succeeds Congrats he’s way more likeable than his wife.
Oh my god y’all. This time it’s just frustrating because I have no idea how y’all are even getting to the conclusions at which you’re arriving. How in the world is Becky being a smartass or a shit?
I haven’t seen this much Becklash in months. I have no idea where it’s coming from, let alone in a strip where Becky is enthusiastically greeting someone she probably sees as the closest thing she has to a father in her life right now.
Someone coined it months ago for the irrational hatred Becky received for such heinous actions as “being a bit flippant” and “spending 20$ on a haircut.”
Their name has been lost to history, at least because I can’t be assed to look it up.
Queer people aren’t fully people, don’t you see? And any time we get uppity and act like we are, we deserve anything that comes to us as a result.
That’s where it’s coming from.
(See also when I got kept in for in-school suspension after some biphobic bullying for longer than the bullies because I had “contributed to the situation” by coming out. That kind of victim-blaming is at play here and it boils down to how dare Becky exist while openly lesbian around people who aren’t comfortable with her sexual orientation)
Go Becky Go!
I’m rooting for Becky to make things better, not worse.
That look on Joyce’s dad’s face is totally just his “What happened to your hair?” look.
Yuuuuup.
I agree we shouldn’t judge Hank by Toedad’s measure. Becky is a girl he half-raised, if she’s that close to Joyce. He has watched her grow up and (hopefully) loves her as a quasi-daughter too. He also knows she’s been through crazy trauma just now. Being fundamentalist doesn’t means he has to be a total a-hole; Joyce isn’t, and she had to get empathy somewhere.
Think quick, mr Brown. What do you say to the girl who was raised partly under your roof, basically as a sister to your daughter, who was thrown out by her family and school and assaulted with a gun by her father because of who she is? A father who is a part of your community and who was upholding your values.
Hint: The correct reaction is to display concern. “Becky, I’m so glad to see you. How are you holding up?” would be one acceptable way to phrase it.
There are lots of ways in which Becky annoys me, in that she’s the type of person I can’t stand in real life. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand why she acts the way she does some times.
But this is one of those annoying ones. And it’s not because I think she should hide because she’s gay. It’s because Joyce has also been through a traumatic experience and has literally just started talked with her father. It’s a private moment, dammit. She’s even smiling. Best friend or not, sometimes you shouldn’t intrude.
Now, Becky may have taken the lack of shouted Bible verses and the fact that even Dina can identify the facial expressions as smiles to indicate that things will be fine. If the issue of whether she was going to accompany Joyce was never actually settled, she may have decided just now to risk it.
She could even be worried that Joyce seeing her family again could get her re-brainwashed into homophobia and have decided to pre-empt that, so that if Hank’s going to say horrible things about her he’ll have to do it to her face in Joyce’s presence. Whether she’s thought it out or not, she’s throwing down the gauntlet here. It’s a perfectly understandable thing to do.
And it still just reaffirms all the ways I find Becky annoying.
You mean the traumatic experience of Becky getting kidnapped by her own father? This is the experience you are referring to justify calling Becky annoying?
Well we have a lot in common.
Everything youve written here— I feel the same way;
Except about the Homophbes in the readership attacking Becking for existing Or Transphobes demanding Carla Be “that Perfect girl”
<<<holds up mirror.
"Whether she’s thought it out or not, she’s throwing down the gauntlet here. "
Hmmm
"And it still just reaffirms all the ways I find" Phobes "annoying".
yup
I sorta understand why Becky thinks this is okay… but quite honestly, it’s not okay. Joyce needs time away, time at home without any of these issues bothering her for at least a little while.
The odds of “these issues” not bothering her at home were like 9438 to 1, even if Becky had hidden away in Dina’s room all weekend long. First: she’s already outspokenly gone to bat for Becky to her mom, and there’ll be hell to pay for that; second: her own current crisis of faith and newfound ability to curse would be causing trouble even if Becky wasn’t involved at all.
Seriously this. She’s coming home specifically as part of a “oh baby, are you okay after that man came to the school with that gun” thing. The chances that Becky and her sexuality weren’t coming up this weekend… hell, this day were absolutely zero.
Becky showing she exists isn’t changing those odds, because that discussion was going to happen one way or another anyways, because that calm before the storm there was just the small talk before shit gets heavy.
Now I am wondering what plans Hank had for preemptive damage control on the drive back. Like trying to maneuver Joyce into not getting into a confrontation with her Mom.
A futile hope, of course, but sometimes you just have to try.
I find it kind of gross that so many people’s first reaction to this is “GODDAMMIT BECKY!” and not: “THE BALL’S IN YOUR COURT, DON’T FUCK IT UP HANK!!!”
I hold out 0 hope of Hank not fucking it up. That’s the problem, he’s going to fuck it up and Joyce will suffer for it. Why Becky thinks that’s a good thing I don’t know.
I doubt she thinks it’s a good thing. I think she hopes Hank is going to respond like the man she remembers him being because she’s taking her prompts by how nice he’s being to Joyce right now. If he reacts badly, no doubt Becky will be horrified and miserable. Acting like she’s doing this just to torment Joyce or even with the idea that it will torment Joyce is doing her a disservice.
Your blaming Becky for the Homophobia she has to face, every single day for the rest of her life. Its never going to stop EVER till the Homophobes stop it; or people like you , grown a spine and Flip The Script.
“I hold out 0 hope of Hank not fucking it up”
How do you stack up in the same standards , you hold up for Hank and Becky?
Considering all the LGBT readers right now, maybe wonder how you stack up in the “not F-ing it up “?
“will suffer for it.”
How will your comments effect LGBT readers? will they suffer for it too?
“Why”.. you “thinks that’s a good thing I don’t know’
People are saying ‘Dammit Becky’ as if she hasn’t been through jack shit recently. I don’t want to spark a flame war here, but let’s just make a few quick notes:
JOYCE: Having her religion challenged, reacting badly; Nearly raped; Had a gun pointed at her; Punched the asshole who did it
BECKY: Already challenged her religion at some point, partially over it; Painfully rejected by Joyce (partially reconciled???); Had a gun pointed at her; Got kidnapped; Has shown tendencies to cover up emotional trauma with a cheerful mask
They’ve both been through shit, sure. But I don’t think it’s fair for most of the comments I’ve read to say “Becky is annoying, Joyce need space” or “Becky is fine, Joyce is traumatized” etc. etc. (Note that those are the slightest of generalizations.)
You have to remember that Becky, under most circumstances, reverts to her happy-go-lucky exterior to deal with stress, trauma, and sadness Keep that in mind when you make comments about why Becky is “so annoying right now”. (Another extremely slight generalization.)
They’re both victims, and you can’t just let one fall by the wayside, as it were.
TL;DR: Becky and Joyce have both been through shit, give them both some slack.
Oh, and Becky doesn’t much have any family any more PERIOD. Joyce still has several siblings and her parents.
Also, Becky’s own FATHER is the one that pointed the gun at her. Reasons like that are why I say Becky doesn’t have any real family. As far as we know, at least.
Those are all great points. These are two traumatized people with very different ways of expressing it. And they are both doing the best they can to rebuild their lives in positive ways (Joyce reaching out more about her PTSD triggers, questioning what she was taught as a child, Becky studying hard to enroll in college, being super cute and healthy with her girlfriend).
I’m not sure what Willis has in mind for this, but I speculate an alternate explanation for Becky’s actions. She’s just been through an entirely traumatic experience. Her father has turned on her in a vile and malicious manner. Her college turned on her. Presumably her church turned on her. Her life has been put in danger. This happy-go-lucky attitude she has? I suspect it’s a front.
Becky is hurting inside from trauma and betrayal, and she wants catharsis. She got some of that catharsis when she flipped off her father, but I wonder if she doesn’t want more. I wonder if she’s not putting herself out there so boldly in the hopes, consciously or unconsciously, that she’ll be attacked and thus get to attack her attackers in turn. She wants Joyce’s dad to judge her, so she can flip him off like she did her father.
Which sucks for Joyce, but Becky’s been through just as much as Joyce has. She deserves what she needs to heal as well. If I’ve got this figured right (and I might not), Becky’s got a lot of anger. And that anger is legitimate and requires outlet. That’s why she nuked the closet from orbit. That’s why she’s butting in on Joyce and her father. She’s painting a target on herself and saying “come at me, bro!” in the hopes that her retaliation will release the feelings she has inside.
I don’t think she wants Hank’s judgement. I think she wants his love. His acceptance. His assurances that she’s not an unperson in his eyes. That she’s someone he can at least be civil and kind to.
Because as you say, she’s got nothing left from home besides Joyce who supports her in even the smallest of ways. This is her last chance for that.
That’s possible. Like I said, just speculation of a possible alternate motivation. And, admittedly, based more than a little on my own experience being rejected by my family.
Thanks. I wasn’t looking for sympathy, but it is very much appreciated.
That was years ago, though, so I have, I hope, some perspective on it now. It wasn’t homosexuality for me, but I sympathize a lot with both Becky and Joyce in this comic.
But Becky hasn’t had years. Becky just went through it all a few days ago. And when I see a character who’s been severed from her whole life, who’s been decried as evil, who’s had her father put a gun to her and her friends, and who still is smiling all the time?
Sal said it. Someone who went through this should be traumatized. But not Becky. It just rolls off Becky. Her response to what should be the most traumatizing thing she’s ever been through was, as I recall, “Again!”
That looks an awful lot like denial to me. That looks to me like a thin veneer of “That Perfect Girl” put up to disguise the depth of her trauma. Maybe I’m just used to Willis putting drama in everything, but I don’t think the other day’s [Internal Screaming] was as much of a joke as it seemed.
Or maybe I’ve taken a few details in a story and run the absolute wrong direction with them, that is also quite possible. 🙂
“Win/win” would be my guess, too. When you’ve got your life on track, you can put up with a lot of people just playing along, pretending to be nice, but when you’re in a bad situation you need to crack those masks and find out who’s a real friend, who’s a foe, and who’s just a useless bystander.
I’m going to say this here. Those of you who are acting like Becky did something wrong here? For talking to a person she has known all her life. For showing her face instead of hiding in shame, groveling in how “hard” she makes her friend’s life simply for existing?
That’s really not cool.
And I’m saying this, because that request. That request to hide, to be absent, to apologize for existing is something I’ve gone through… a lot. A lotta lot.
And it’s still scarring me. I was told to my face that things like being threatened with death or being discriminated against or being disowned or being repeatedly accosted or mistreated on the street were because I was being “so stupid as to force myself on people” by existing near them. I was made to feel like the ways in which secondary trauma befell those close to me were personally fault. I was “breaking up the family”. I was “hurting everyone” around me.
At many a time I believed that the only way to stop people from being hurt by my existence was… well, to take a more permanent solution as it were.
And it still grips me. I don’t have that thought so much anymore, but I catch myself when I’m out with someone I love, where I worry about what will befall them for being next to me. Or where I view myself as incapable of being worth the suffering that can come with. Where I view myself as a cancer in other people’s lives. And that is up to me to make it up to everyone. By being, in Carla’s terms, “that perfect girl”.
And the reason that scarred was because society fully agreed with those sentiments. Of course I’m making “everyone’s life hard”, of course I should be held to this impossible standard.
And of course it should be reasonable to ask me to be invisible.
And that invisibility? Wounds.
For Becky, this is the last gasping breath of family she’s got left. Joyce is a friend she wants to support as best she can.
And she’s responding in a perfectly normal way. She’s doing nothing wrong.
And reacting as if she is doing something wrong simply because she exists in space is NOT okay. And I’m sorry to be firm on this, but I’m not sure how to convey just how dehumanizing it is to read so many comments echoing that sentiment so strongly when you have a background like mine.
I hope you’re doing okay, these past few comments sections seem to be causing you a lot of stress and pain and I’m really sorry for that. It sucks looking through these and feeling like your humanity/feelings are invalidated in the minds of some people.
You don’t need to apologize at all. You’ve been very strong for very long, and you deserve a moment to rest and recuperate. You’ve been fighting the good fight and everyone worth caring about, both here and elsewhere, is very proud and grateful. ♥
Like the others said, there’s no reason for you to feel sorry for your feelings, they’re completely understandable. I’ve been admiring all of your comments and your bravery in talking about your struggles in such detail. You definitely deserve some peace and I hope it comes to you. <3
But ( my unsolicited advice ) Try and be conscious of the energy burden, on yourself, of taking on the job of ‘teh jackass whisperer’ .
It also has a cost —just like reading privileged bullshit.
i think the main benefit of challenging bias and untruth, is the effecting Bystander effects on the other people reading or witnessing a conversation. in this case it signals to gay and trans people that you have their back fully.
And the points youve made here are excellent.
But if its a drain, and the topic is “who is responsible for the burden of homo/transphobic bias?” You can outsource also that to someone .
( Dan Savage? Its one of his main perennial topics )
You don’t need to be stronger, or at the very least you damn well shouldn’t, they need to be more mindful of the implications of what they’re saying. There’s nothing for you to be sorry about you’re an entirely positive and illuminating influence on this community. I know I’m not the only one who appreciates your relentless defense of marginalized people or your efforts to educate people on our issues. You’re very good people and I’m really glad you’re around to set people straight (just not too straight).
Hey Cerberus, sorry to hear that you’re not doing well. I don’t know if this will help since you strike me as someone already well versed in coping strategies. But for what it’s worth, I’ve learned to pay extra attention when I find myself using “should” statements since they often reveal unfair expectations I’m putting on myself. Rephrasing them still seems really gimmicky to me but despite that it actually does help me sometimes.
Echoing everyone that you are rad, and also that you’ve been extremely generous with your important perspective in these comment sections. As a result, I hear you loud and clear, and clearly many others have, too. Thank you so much!
Also, giving you tons of permission to take a break whenever the comments put you in a bad headspace. (Or, for that matter, whenever you want.)
Does reading/responding a lot do you more harm, or more good? Maybe sometimes one but sometimes the other?
You are much more important than the comments section is.
Please be a bit selfish and take care of yourself. Only you know whether that means continuing to read it all, to take long breaks whenever the comments get to you, etc. You’ve already expressed yourself so well that others will have your back. I hope you do what is best for you, because you are the best. <3
These are the reasons why I’m still deep, deep in the closet with family and at work. Which will eventually be a problem since in the past couple years, my orientation (while still bi) has slid sharply up the Kinsey scale…so that’s fun! While far from cult fundie status, both sides of my family are very Christian and conservative, and I have no idea how they’ll react.
I’m in a similar situation, Shiro. Liberal atheist bisexual with a conservative Christian family in the middle of the Bible Belt. Very much in the closet about who I really am and what I believe. Even dealt with some friction over voting for Obama, so really not anxious to reveal more.
At the same time though, I really like my family and don’t want to alienate them. Similar to you, I don’t really know how they would react, but I dread having to force that confrontation. (As an aside, I recognize that there’s a certain amount of privilege in having a situation where I can just avoid pressing the issue, unlike Becky for instance.)
So Joyce is the character I relate to more closely here. The one who just doesn’t want things to change while having the sinking feeling that they’re going to. Maybe I’m projecting on to her, but I feel like Joyce is trying to hold her fracturing life together, scared if she screws up she’ll lose something important to her. If I were in Joyce’s shoes, I’d be panicking just like she seems to be.
Rationally, yeah, this is probably a good move on Becky’s part for both her and Joyce and any negative consequences are totally not her fault. But viscerally, I can’t help but wince in sympathy for Joyce who (perhaps naively) seems to just want to get through a visit home without any major drama and with the (admittedly flawed) status quo relatively intact.
Me too, though have my family is atheist (contrary to popular belief, “atheist” and “progressive” don’t go hand-in-hand. There are at least as many homophobic and misogynistic atheists as there are homophobic and misogynistic Christians, in my experience. It’s just that the atheists word it in terms of biotruths whereas the Christians word it in terms of the Bible).
I don’t want to be that guy who discredits your experience or anything, because honestly, I really do appreciate your comments and perspective, but I can’t help but feel that Becky could’ve allowed Joyce just a little more time to get comfortable talking to her dad again, because she very clearly isn’t. This said, I was hoping that Becky would be willing to meet with Joyce’s dad and talk to him without being afraid, because she shouldn’t have to hide from people she knew well, and I’m happy she’s not being apologetic for who she is. I just think that Joyce could’ve used more time to prepare herself mentally.
Tell me if my thinking is wrong, because seeing how fragile this topic is I deserve to be yelled at if I am.
If you look at the background on panels 2 and 3, you’ll see Joyce and Hank are walking away. So with that in mind, how much time should Becky wait? Until they are out of the room? In the car? They were already walking way, the time was really now.
Perhaps until they got back. I mean, Joyce won’t be away forever and she’s not coming back alone. I think I just feel bad that Joyce has to potentially jump into he fray again so soon.
I think she should have time to sort herself out, without having to worry that she might have to fight with her parents regarding Becky. Its one thing to get help, but when the person offering it could potentially create an even worse situation going it alone sounds preferable for Joyce.
First of all, allow me to return the *hugs* you gave me. No one should have to go through that, and here you are using your experience to put forth some very insightful comments on the subject. You are awesome.
Now, on to the meat of this. It’s been bothering me since the comic went up why Becky’s actions… well, bothered me. Because everything you said is absolutely true. Becky exists, and Becky should never have to hide that she exists. And yet, something about Becky’s actions kept bothering me. Not her motivations (I go into that in my quite possibly apocryphal comment above), but the fact that she put herself forward at all.
I think we can safely dismiss the idea that she’s doing this naively or innocently. All of the others are hiding behind the corner. There’s clearly a deliberate “let’s leave Joyce alone” vibe here. And while happy-go-lucky, Becky’s not foolish enough to pretend that nothing has changed in her relationship to Joyce’s parents. So she’s deliberately putting herself in a situation that might very well cause conflict.
But so what? As you said, brilliantly, she deserves to exist. She deserves a relationship with the only quasi-family she’s got left.
But still, it kept gnawing at me. And I think I’ve finally figured out what it was.
Becky isn’t taking the risk here. Becky is forcing the risk on to Joyce.
Joyce is at college at her parents’ sufferance. And while Joyce’s parents likely won’t go after her with a gun, they might pull her out of college, and they might disown her. Joyce has a closet of her own, a closet of fundamentalism that she hides in around her parents. If Joyce leaves that closet there could be very real, very tangible consequences which have been hinted at and foreshadowed throughout the comic.
By moving forward like this, Becky is quite possibly forcing a confrontation that will force Joyce to either deny her best friend, or nuke her own closet. And while Becky nuking her closet from orbit is awesome… that’s not a decision you can make for someone else.
I’m not willing to say Becky’s wrong, for all the reasons you pointed out. But Becky is risking Joyce, and she’s doing it without giving Joyce any say in the matter, without giving Joyce any agency. And Joyce clearly is not happy with it. That, I think, is what is bothering me about this.
“Becky isn’t taking the risk here. Becky is forcing the risk on to Joyce.”
No, Joyce already took on this risk, and confronted her parants on the phone.
Joyce already invited her. She isnt forcing herself. She was fully invited.
Look, there is no way this isnt going to be a little awkward. But Mr Brown has a preexisitng relationship with Becky . You are missing the contexts here. Becky probably jokes with Mr Brown about Joyce’s food habits all the time. Shes breaking the ice.
This is extra awkward because the Browns tried to betray Becky to her crazy father. She know it . They know it. They know she knows it. She knows they know she knows it etc.
Not wanting to step on any landmines of this already very touchy discussion, I think I can safely say that I agree in large part with EvilWriter here. However, that agreement is based on my ignorance of a particular issue here. Adam, you and a few other commenters say that Becky was “fully invited” to meet Joyce’s parents with her. I’m not sure if this is true–but maybe my memory’s a little fuzzy, because I’m mostly just remembering the previous comic where Dorothy explicitly asks if Joyce wanted her presence, to which she answered, “no.” If I’m mistaken, please by all means, correct me. In which comic were all of Joyce’s friends “invited” to come down and be a part of this moment?
I’m mostly just asking so I can go back and read it myself, to disabuse myself of any incorrect notions I’m having. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. Darn the lack of an edit button!
OTOH, it was never explicitly confirmed and Hank doesn’t seem to have been informed.
Which might or might not be a good idea, but certainly isn’t an argument that she was definitely coming all along.
And damn near every argument for why Becky shouldn’t have stepped out to talk to Hank also applies to surprising him with her coming for the weekend.
Mind you, I think she should come, but in that case I’d rather the parents be prepared up front.
I suppose the pertinent question is that, if Becky weren’t gay, would there be any kind of hypothetical objection the Browns would have, given their history with Becky?
Likely not, though it’s generally considered good form to let people know when you’re bringing extra house guests.
But if Becky wasn’t gay, the whole situation would be so completely different that it’s hard to parallel. If Becky was straight and Ross flipped out and attacked her and Joyce for reasons not linked to their shared religion, I suspect the Browns would be practically adopting her.
@Evilwriter: back when Becky showed up at IU, the night that Becky came out to her, Joyce cradled her and told her that no matter what it was a choice between, she’d choose Becky. Becky isn’t forcing Joyce to choose.
People also are failing to recognize how SAFE Becky is at the moment, to where she CAN go up to Joyce’s dad to gauge his attitude toward her. Dorothy, Walky and Dina are nearby, Joyce is right next to her, and after toedad you KNOW campus security is on higher alert.
I cannot tell you how much I respect what you have been doing here. You have been clearly and calmly explaining what’s wrong in these comments, staying so polite and respectful of people I am mentally cursing incoherently at. You shouldn’t have to do it, but I find you incredibly badass for taking it on. You are awesome.
Cerberus, thank you for being as open about your experiences as you have been. It goes without saying that it’s way beyond unforunate (replace with appropriate adjective) that you are such a resource for real life experience and context of recent comic events.
Your strength is an inspiration. I hope you are okay and that one day soon this space can be safer and less draining for all.
I'm sorry this is all triggering for you, and I'm sorry ignorant people in the world have caused you this kind of pain. 🙁 For the record, you're awesome and I love reading the stuff you post. It seems like you have a fairly decent support network within this community (despite the ignorant other peeps, cause, internet) — I hope you have something like that within your day to day life as well. Wishing you peace and comfort. <3
Cerberus, anyone who’s earned your love must be good people and they wouldn’t want you to stress yourself because they love you and want to be next to you — and if the people you love love you then you totes deserve that love. Accept and believe it: that’s what you ‘owe’ them.
For greeting someone she’s grown up around and known most of her life? After hanging back and making sure that things didn’t go instantly up in flames before she approached them? She’s just said something completely normal – probably a topic they’ve all joked about millions of times before – to someone who’s played a huge role in her life.
It may not have been the most tactful time to enter, but in a situation like this one, there may not /be/ a better time. She saw an opportunity to approach them when things were good and start off in what should have been a lighthearted way. She’s definitely not doing it for the sake of starting a fight.
I think I might’ve misread the intent of the strip. I read everyone going “Oh hey no bad times” as the cause of Becky going out and talking (like “Oh yeah?”) rather than the probably intent of it ironic foreshadowing
Donchaknow, homophobia is now 100% gay people’s fault for antagonizing those poor innocent homophobes, ESPECIALLY when it makes straight people’s lives harder as a result.
Couldn’t have said it better. When we’re not causing innocents to perish in the hurricanes we force God to deploy at us, we’re deliberately causing pain to the sensitive and fragile innocents who have been Good Enough to tolerate our presence.
And that’s why, if we insist on coming out of the closet, we should close the door very, very gently behind us so that we don’t upset anyone. It’s the least we can do.
No we need to leave the door open so that it’s easier for us to jump back in whenever straight people don’t want to deal with the truly exhausting travail of us being us anymore.
… if you define “antagonizing” as “existing without spending 99.9% of your time profusely apologizing” then yeah. See also my school which defined me coming out and then going about my day as an out bi girl as antagonizing and “contributing to the situation” when some people decided to be bigots.
Silly me, I’d thought after a kid got put in the hospital a couple months before and the school got on this big “no tolerance for homophobia” kick, they were actually going to walk the talk.
(actually, not entirely. I feared that they were just talking the talk with no intention of walking the walk, but I wanted to see because hope is dangerous like that and it will make you do very dangerous things with years-long repercussions just to see if maybe fear is wrong. From experience: fear is pretty much never wrong when the question is whether or not people are going to enable other’s terribleness and blame the victim instead of the person being terrible.)
Becky is coming with Joyce, they’ve already agreed on that. Becky HAD to make her presence known at some point and they’re literally leaving the building right now. The reason she likely didn’t come down with Joyce was to give her and her dad that alone time for as long as feasible but it’s stopped being feasible unless she wants to sneak into the trunk of his car.
Where did Joyce say she wanted to be alone with her dad? (She said Dorothy shouldn’t see her off, but that’s specifically to avoid a confrontation like Family Weekend)
Having been in that situation a year ago, before other commenters pointed out how awful my comments were to anyone who were not me, I think it boils down to us having done really stupid things ourselves that we know is only our fault and being jealous that a fictional character can get away with it.
I absolutely hate hitting post comment on my phone when trying to scroll down.
Continued: It’s not homophobia in the sense that commenters believe non-cisgendered/non-heterosexuals shouldn’t be allowed to be honest with who they are and freely express it, but rather in the sense of being unable to put ourselves in the situation of people who can relate to the character before saying anything.
It’s easy to criticize Becky when only seeing her as a fictional character and not as a representation of how real and relatable her life is to a lot of people.
Yep, like you yourselves seem to recognize, no homosexuals = no homophobes, that’s just logic, so its real hetero-oppressive for you to force “otherwise decent people” to be homophobic. Course, it’s equally true that, no homophobes = no homophobes, so, never mind the first part.
People acting surprised at Becky’s actions have no appreciation for tactics or strategy.
Her own dad has just put her and her friends’ lives in danger. With him safely out of the picture, Joyce’s parents – who share the same moral viewpoints as her dad – are the only people who would have both a possible motive and the means to threaten hers and Joyce’s well being.
So for her own safety she needs to KNOW whose side they are on and whether she should expect them to be a threat, and she needs to see it first hand, and through bits of information passed on to her by Joyce.
And she knows that Joyce needs to know that too, head on, before she is taken out of the comfort of her new home and into the lions den so to speak.
Seeing that Joyce and her dad were clearly avoiding talking about the issue and doing the whole “lets pretend THE THING did not happen”, confronting the issue head on was clearly the smartest and bravest thing that Becky could have done, as now Joyce’s dad is pretty much forced to reveal his cards in front of everyone.
I don’t think that’s a wrong way to look at it, in fact I think that’s something Becky wants on the table for her own peace of mind, but I took this as her jumping in because she’s just honestly that happy to see Joyce’s dad again, because right now he’s the closest she has to a good parent in her life.
So what if he totally sides against her? Now she accelerated the process and she’s fucked even harder than before. Honestly, if it WAS to see if Joyce’s dad was willing to be a good guy or not, that was a huge gamble on her part, since it’s not even clear he knows everything yet. For all we know, he was turning a blind eye to the situation so he could not rat out Becky while still being a “good Christian”, and now he can’t play ignorant.
Not as great as eating one of those giant cakes strippers pop out of. Especially if instead of hollow there’s ice cream inside. If there IS stripper in there then I’ll hand her a fork because we’re gonna double team this ice cream cake.
(I already achieved my original dream which was to get a cookie cake, put ice cream between it and eat an Ice cream cookie cake).
Again I’m reminded how very much I want Becky to get a job at Galasso’s, both for the potential hilarity and because Galasso is explicitly and canonically not-homophobic.
Galasso has already invested significant company resources into a thinly-veiled attempt to better understand the fundamentals of human sexuality. He could quite plausibly hire Becky, not as a basic foodservice technician (although there would likely be some of that just to fill time), but rather an official PR rep and advisor on LGBT issues.
(Alternately, this comment is meshing with the Becklash being Becky’s kinky porno stage name comment elsewhere on the post in weird ways about which I’m not sure how to feel.)
Except she’s not really any worse off. If he sides against her now in person, he was going to do it anyway. Tear the bandage off. Get it out in the open now, before Joyce leaves and is stuck alone with him with no way to escape.
Hmmm. I wasn’t actually expecting that to strike the chord that it did until I wrote it, but I’ll bet that is in the back of Becky’s mind.
I’ve never been Beckys biggest fan, I think she has some very good points to her but that shes also quite obnoxious (no doubt due to her upbringing) I wouldn’t want to hang out with her in real life (and she probably wouldn’t want to hang out with me either)
But in this case the only issue I see with what shes doing here is that she could maybe dial it back just a little, maybe start with “hi Mr Brown” (I’m assuming she calls him Mr Brown) first
As people say this is a delicate situation, we and they don’t know what hank is feeling right about now and forcing the issue now would be a bad idea
But Becky has spent her entire life growing up with the Browns so for her to interact with Hank is completely natural so I’m not sure why people are getting bent out of shape that Beckys talking to her (probable) surrogate father
Yeah, and even so this IS a pretty dialed back opening line. She is telling a funny Joyce story. We KNOW that Becky has done that her entire life. She is interacting with Hank exactly as she has always done, which means that what she is really saying is “Hi, everything can be normal between the two of us, despite everything, right?”
The potentially shocking thing she does is… to exist, and just as you say she and Hank go way back. She peaked around the corner to check his mood and that he was alone (she might have tried a different approach if Carol was there). She decided to take the risk. Good thing she did.
You’re arguing on the premise that Becky and Hank are at odds with each other, which there is literally no evidence for yet. Why the need for strategy at this stage?
No I am not. I’m arguing that due to the current circumstances of well everything thats happened that maybe a cautious hello might be a better option then cracking jokes
Once its clear what the situation is then by all means crack jokes but I’m assuming that for the community Hank is involved in that jail, threatening murder, coming out, abandonment etc etc it might be considered a big deal and as such peoples nerves might be on edge
All the better to show up here, and gauge his reaction. Right now, Becky’s in the safest possible position to do what she’s doing. She has the company of her peers here, her best friend Joyce, and campus security. There is no other possible time for her to have an opportunity to straight up confront Hank on his opinion of recent events.
Yeah sure of course, we’ll forget that Hank is dealing with a friend of his going to jail due in part to the threatening of Joyces life, we’ll forgot that hes probably feeling like he a failure because he couldn’t protect his daughter, we’ll forgot that hes now in a situation thats he probably never been in before and hes trying to reconnect with his daughter after a traumatic experience and thats without even knowing how is wife is reacting
and we won’t mention how Joyce might be feeling either, there are three people there all with differing degrees of feeling guilt, feeling shame, feeling scared, feeling hope and feeling love (and probably even more emotions) so you know what I don’t think that playing it safe in this situation is that unreasonable
You’re very passionate about this and I admire that, but Becky isn’t stepping on any toes here. She’s saying hi, in her own way, and whether or not Joyce’s dad wants her gone remains to be seen. Until then, let’s not pass too harsh a judgment against her.
Chris, making a totally in-character joke about Joyce’s longstanding unwillingness to try new food IS playing it safe. It doesn’t ask anyone to confront anything, and it immediately gives Hank a way to begin talking with Becky if he wants to. That’s an easier opening for everyone than, “Hi, Hank! So nice to see you after my recent kidnapping!”
Also, from what I’ve seen of Hank’s personality, I seriously doubt he and Toedad were ever friends, church community notwithstanding.
It would be playing it safe if these were anything close to normal circumstances but they’re not, chances are Hank will be fine with it but Becky doesn’t know that so why not just say Hi or Hello and let the conversation go from there
Or is having a little tact now considered a bad thing?
@chris73: Nah, actually Becky IS making it easier for Hank here. If she opened with ‘Hello’ she would have put the pressure of responding in a non-awkward way on him, and he would have 100% not be able to do that. “Hi” IS the awkward opening there.
Instead, Becky set the tone, and Hank now has the option to go with it and continue discussion Joyce’s food habits and sushi and cooking and what have you, forcing back all the awkardness for now.
Or rather than forcing back all the awkwardness, hug Becky, tell how glad he is she’s ok, how sorry he is for what happened, if only they had realized, of course she can come home with Joyce and that she’s got a home with them any time she wants it.
You know, like a fucking decent human being would in this situation.
And we all know he won’t. However harshly or politely, he’ll leave his daughter’s childhood best friend who has probably half grown up in his house, homeless because his religion tells him being lesbian is a sin.
@thejeff well to be fair contributing factors are not just his own attitude to lgbt+ ppl but also that of his family and community. He might well have no personal objections to Becky, but it’s going to be awkward anyway just because of Ross having being his friend / what his wife told Joyce over the phone / the entire context.
Actually, if he counted beforehand that he’d most likely meet Becky and figured out how to react, he might well actually respond in a ‘normal decent human being’ manner. It’s just if he isn’t prepared that it falls on Becky to break the ice…
IDK. Maybe everything will be sunshine and rainbows with Hank and it’s only with Joyce’s mom that all hell will break loose (which it undoubtedly will)…
Well, it’s not all on him and he might well be better than most in his community, though the evidence is sparse on him being too much better. It remains a possibility.
OTOH, if you let your daughter’s best friend remain homeless because your community won’t approve, you fail. That’s a community I want no part of.
If you let your daughter’s best friend remain homeless because your religion doesn’t approve, you fail. That’s a religion I want no part of.
If you let your daughter’s best friend remain homeless because your spouse doesn’t approve, that’s harder, but still, I can’t imagine staying with someone like that.
At the very least, at that point, you take those first couple of steps, still do what you can to reassure her (and Joyce) and help, but let her know she should steer clear of Carol.
If he was more prepared, he might be more able to fake not being a complete bigot, but if he hasn’t been worrying about the little girl he remembers not just being traumatized by her dad, but also about where she’s going to live and how she’s going to make it, then he doesn’t have an excuse for not being prepared.
This isn’t complicated and it isn’t hard. You don’t have to study. It’s basic community and empathy stuff.
And that’s the damage his religion has done.
@thejeff: so you’re saying that Becky is wrong here because her approaching Hank like she has her entire life even after he found out she’s an evil lezbo puts him on the spot to act like a decent human being to her…yeah, I can see that. No tact, no consideration, that girl.
So here comes the challenge: Just how desperate is Joyce to ‘go home again’ and does Becky have a place there? Additionally, just how far does Bank’s tolerance go with his daughter’s friends? Particularly one with the historical baggage that Becky brings with her?
“Becky, how dare you talk to your best friend’s father, who you’ve known your entire life. You should be more sensitive to Joyce’s feelings after being kidnapped by your own father at gunpoint for being gay!”–very reasonable and not at all jerky posters
On one hand there’s, yes she absolutely should be able to. On the other, Joyce is already dreading this weekend enough, in her own way and with her father situation Becky could realize just how scary confronting your parents with change can be, because its going to come out. Regardless to me it seems like Joyce’s Dad’s sortof an ‘unknown’ factor here with regards. He DOES seem to want Joyce to branch out and try new things and be her own person which is WAY different from Becky’s dad obviously. How he reacts to Becky I think will range more to the kind, if patronizing. But poking an unknown like this is….risky. I think most people criticizing Becky are doing so more out of the situational caution most of them would show. Which I tend to think is the right direction to take in these cases since any resulting blowback doesn’t just hit her. I’m something of a dick and handle the trouble my mouth has historically gotten me in, but even I know its rude to potentially cause chaos for a friend.
What I don’t like is people acting like Becky is the only one with any agency, and that her feelings don’t matter. Again, she’s just talking to him! There is no reason to think that should cause any problems–unless Joyce’s dad says something homophobic. If he does, that’s on him; why should Becky be blamed for his choice, especially when SHE’S THE ONE WHO’S GAY?!
And again, SHE’S THE ONE WHO WAS KIDNAPPED BY HER FATHER AT GUNPOINT. Why is no one worried about HER feelings?
…. I struggle to understand the comments today. Why is everyone so quick to blame Becky? Why are other’s as equally quick to defend her. There is no bad guy in this situation. It looks like Becky is causing problem’s for Joyce but that has more to do with Joyce feelings of needing to protect Becky than anything Becky has done herself.
The sad truth is they’re both victims here. Victims of the situation that surrounds them. Decisions and assumptions made or possibly made by “other people” have created an environment where Joyce feels like a simple conversation between her best friend and her father is a akin to stepping on a landmine. Joyce shouldn’t have to fear Becky being spotted by her family. Becky shouldn’t have to feel like she has to hide from people she’s known most her life. We don’t know how Mr.Brown will react but that will be on him not Becky and not Joyce.
I’m typically all for finding a middle ground, but in this case the “becky why are you being so annoying” brigade has nothing to stand on, because Becky has literally not done a single thing wrong in this strip, and that’s why we’re quick to defend a character who gets shit on a lot more than she deserves in the comments at times.
The main grounds I have is that this was a private moment. It was Joyce enjoying a little talk with her dad before things had to get ugly as everyone in the room knew they would inevitably have to, establishing that yes, they do love each other before the shouting match starts. And you don’t get in the middle of that. I don’t care if you’re a man, a woman, gay, straight, atheist, christian, pastafarian, or an eggplant for all I care. When your friend is having a family moment you stay to the bloody side for five minutes and don’t friggin interrupt.
That said, I have less than zero hope that Joyce’s parents aren’t going to pull some monstrous thing too, so I suppose the writer figured that might as well get it done with ASAP.
Joyce is literally just having a conversation with her dad. A conversation. If they started dropping dramabombs then sure, but all they’re doing is talking about dinner.
Like, I guess if you squint a bit then the language of the strip reads as if Becky suddenly appeared to shock them, rather than Becky just walking up and announcing her presence as she probably has done with her secondary, now promoted, family.
Yes Dina those are smiles, though Joyce looks so awkward and unsettled as she is unsure of what her parents are going to pull this weekend on her, and just a few weeks ago anything negative happening wouldn’t have crossed her mind.
Sometimes waiting for the other shoe to drop is the worst thing of all. Not fully knowing where you stand but suspecting it is negative can be worse then establishing it actually is sometimes.
i can understand what people are saying by defending Becky in this scenario
HOWEVER- I’d like to point out that when Joyce stood up to her parents she won. When Becky did- well yeah. Now granted those are very far cries from being the same but I [would very very much] like to think this means that although their parents share the same viewpoints- Joyce’s wouldn’t go to that extremes, So Becky’s sneak attack is a little unnerving. Because I believe if Joyce doesn’t play the part her parents WILL take her out of school and I’m not sure Joyce is ready to be on her own and walk away from her family. That may have been a bit messed up on Becky’s part.
On the other hand the fact that the voicemail Joyce left on her mother’s phone has yet to be answered or brought up could mean something is waiting for her at home. Maybe Becky knows this, maybe she doesn’t. Regardless of her intentions it’ll be good for Joyce to see the reactions and maybe stay if she is not safe at home.
Time will tell
Well she’s known her father her whole life I’m assuming and when it was discovered she was gay it did not end well. Now I do not know the Browns to react this way- but after Joyce’s conversation with her mother it stands to reason she’s uneasy about how her parents will react with Becky. Perhaps Becky does not recognize this, but seeing the discomfort on Joyce’s face- she did not expect Beck to do this nor did any of her friends.
Hence- sneak attack
However you want to interpret it is fine.
And maybe you’re right- who can know the intentions that Becky has for going out of her way to talk to someone she knows shares the same viewpoints as her father.
But Becky isn’t stupid. She may be overzealous and forward, but she’s not stupid. She knew her dad wouldn’t take her being into women well and she has to know Joyce’s parents- again who she knows shares the same viewpoints as her father- would perhaps not be totally accepting. She knows they know. Maybe she believes Joyce’s father would take it better- I don’t know.
But she’s smart enough to know that after everything that has happened, a negative reaction could possibly take place.
Would that excuse Joyce’s dad for making one if he does?
No- but there is such a thing as poking the bear. It’s not definite that a negative reaction will happen- but there’s a good chance.
Again- I don’t know the intentions but we shall wait and see.
If a negative reaction does take place, then there’s no safer place for it to happen than here, in the company of her peers, her best friend Joyce, and the ramped up campus security (presumably). I see no danger around.
Violence wise I suppose- but that’s assuming Joyce’s father would react violently.
There is also danger on what perhaps this casual conversation may start later. Might not be anything. May be another lecture on Joyce’s choice on who she associates herself with. Maybe a bad tongue lashing with Joyce having to make a choice. That danger could be present.
Remember Joyce has decided to support and protect Becky- she called her parents to tell them so but hasn’t had an actual real time conversation yet. They could’ve been waiting until they had her home- or Becky’s actions may move that up now. Which in all honesty would be the more preferable route.
Perhaps nothing may come from this conversation and Joyce has nothing to worry about.
Maybe this conversation is irrelevant.
Maybe this conversation will start something here and now.
Who knows.
We’ll find out soon enough.
Again, this is the safest position for Becky to be. If she senses any danger, she can simply stay at the college where she has all the support she ever needs. And that would be that.
Anything that happens between Joyce and her dad would not be Becky’s fault in the least. Joyce can stand up for herself like before.
Not necessarily. Joyce is thus far taken responsibility for Becky. Becky is pulling her weight, gained friends, getting a job, and has a girlfriend. She’s doing pretty good and has a cushion to land if things go wrong.
But for now she has no place to go but this college that she is not apart of and can be kicked out with possibly no place to go [again- she has people to help but who can say what would happen]
Take into consideration that the Browns are aware of her situation. They may not know for sure that Becky is crashing there but they know her father isn’t supporting her so she can’t afford to go to college there. They put two and two together and all they have to do is report they believe she may be there then there’s a good chance it will be looked into and she will be found out.
And no- if something happens with Joyce and her dad it wouldn’t be her fault directly. I do think if something does happen it will be because Joyce supports her which no- it’s not Beck’s fault, no one made Joyce support her. But it will be about her and if it does she’ll feel like it is and- poor Becky again.
I hope you’re right though and nothing bad happens
Becky’s smart here, imo. Joyce’s father’s reaction *now* will indicate whether or not her parents will allow her to return to school. Depending on how this conversation goes, Joyce might not go home with her father.
Because honestly, the small talk her father is making with her sounds an awful lot like a trap. “Oh, we’ve made your favorite food, everything’s going to be just great, blah blah blah…”
Becky knows Joyce’s parents – just as Joyce knew her own father. They go to the same church, have the same mentality… let’s not forget that Joyce’s mother defended Becky’s father’s actions. It’s not a huge leap to think that Joyce might be in for a heaping dose of the same when/if she leaves with her father… possibly not to return.
Becky… there’s a time and a place for everything. But whether this is the place and time for whatever you’re doing, I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.
Excuse me please but I don’t get one thing: are the Americans really so much religious en masse? Or it just my wrong impression? I just don’t get used to it, it still new thing for me.
BTW, I need to say my big thanks to mr. Willis for keeping doing the right work, and for all (excluding trolls, racists etc.) people in comment section. You are the one’s who keeps me alive everyday.
Excuse me for my bad English, I still can’t write & speak right 🙁
Certain areas of the US are very religious, but not all of them. There is a region called “The Bible Belt” that groups all the most religious States together.
Thank you for the answer, and providing the information.
I think Becky did that not for lulz, but mostly to know how Hank will react to her
But also for lulz 🙂
I’ve never run into this, just the opposite actually. Christians and people of faith getting the stink eye and atheism/agnosticism being the bone of contention mainly in the news.
Don’t put words into my mouth I’m not blaming her for anything, if Mr. Brown decides to be a freaiking douche nozzle i’m not gonna go “YOU SHOULDA EXPECTED THAT BECKY”
it’s a bad idea because it’s just going to cause more trouble for both her and joyce. I understand wanting to talk to SOMEONE she’s familiar with, I do, but there would be a time and place for it.
“she has to be aware that Joyce’s family would be homophobic too” is literally what you said. No one put words in your mouth. That really is victim blaming.
Is it her responsibility to see that she isn’t attacked by homophobic people? Absolutely not. It is THEIR responsibility to NOT attack gay people.
I know a guy who I used to be friends with, we were close, real close but I told him I was gay so now when I see him he throws me verbal abuse, so instead of approaching him whenever I see him I avoid him, THATS what I meant okay? It’s a bad idea because it’s a situation that’s just going to make her upset and it would not be her fault at all but she should just avoid the people she knows are homophobic because it’s just going to make her feel worse
I’m not good with words, I’m bad at explaining what I mean sorry
Hey, no worries. I didn’t mean to upset you. But I understand your meaning now. 🙂 In this situation though, we don’t know his reaction, and she isn’t directly seeking a reaction from Joyce’s dad. She’s just saying hello.
She actually didn’t. Becky offered to go, to be Joyce’s moral support. (Though I did remember it as Joyce asking before rereading the strip, myself. I think I might have originally accidentally skipped over Becky’s speech balloon where she offered, and Joyce’s ‘are you sure’ sounds like she asked without that context.)
She has friends to back her up, her best friend Joyce, and campus security in the area (presumably stepped up after Toedad). How bad an idea is this again?
Everyone who’s framing Becky’s greeting as “an attack” needs to see things from Becky’s perspective. At this point, Becky doesn’t know who at home she can trust. So when Joyce’s dad comes to pick her up, Becky, being herself, took the braver option of going out to greet him and test the waters. This way, with the company of trusted peers nearby, she can safely assess him without fear of violence.
She wants to trust Joyce’s dad, but how would she know for sure he could be trusted unless she confronted him herself? Going through Joyce, while safer, is unreliable because he could put up a front for Joyce’s sake.
The danger isn’t that he’ll do something violent to her, the danger is that he could get her thrown out of Billie’s room and out on the street. That’s what I’m worried about anyway. All he has to do is call the school and tell them about her and then Becky is back to living under a bridge somewhere.
They’ve known about Becky being there though, he’s had 4 days to call the school and have her kicked out. If he didn’t do it after his daughter was almost shot due to being near Becky, he’s probably not gonna do it because Becky showed her face.
Remember Ross? There is 100% danger that he’d do something violent to her. Or Joyce. Not hitting, no, just arm-twisting, blocking exits and physically dragging where he wants them to be and preventing from leaving.
Hank doesn’t seem all that big and strong compared to them, granted, so it’s not a big danger, but just – violence is not all or nothing. Even words can be violence.
Can’t I just be “Dammit Becky” for her timing without victim blaming? My interpretations of Becky’s behavior lends itself to impulsivity, which I am sadly lacking.
I facepalmed and then said to myself “Well, we’ll see where this goes…” Though, it turns out that I had completely forgotten about how she wanted to go back with Joyce. It just, maybe would have been more tactful to let Joyce bring it, but then, we are talking about 18-year-olds and who among them always make tactful decisions?
Looking back at the strip, my reaction was definitely influenced by the look of panic on Joyce’s face.
All these reactions seem to be exacerbated by the amount of time between each strip and people forgetting what has happened or how recently, but such is the world of non-compiled comic reading. I’d put money on anyone reading these for the first time in book form will have more rational responses or at least forego the rollercoaster before arriving at their irrational response.
I don’t really get why everyone is so polarized about this. Like I expected this to have the full bell curve of reactions way more than the two opposed viewpoints that are on display
Before I continue my rambling rant, I want to try to make it real clear that I’m really not trying to be offensive at all and if I sound like I am, it’s probably because I’m tired and stupid. And yes, I realize that this makes it sound like I’m going to say some really terrible things, but I’m being honest, I swear!
I feel like Becky is kind of in the wrong here, but in such a small way it’s kind of negligible. While Joyce hasn’t exactly been the best friend to Becky, she’s still trying her damn hardest to be supportive to her and is now trying to take just a single weekend off for self-care because her life is pretty much going in the crapper. Becky’s life is also going into the crapper if it hasn’t already been submerged. But I think the fundamental difference here is that Becky has her new friends (and a girlfriend so supportive that she kicked the crap out of her abusive father) to spend this one weekend with. Joyce’s friendships are not helping her and she took a step towards mental health by meeting with her parents instead of burying her emotions (Though I’m not sure her parents will help at all).
The reason I don’t think this is at all a big deal though is that Becky does really have every right to see Joyce’s dad. She’s not doing this to be a jerk, but to better connect with her childhood best friend and family. If nothing bad happens from here on out (which won’t happen, this is a narrative after all) then I feel like this could be solved with an awkward friend hug and two apologies. Neither of them communicated their desires well, so I can’t be at all mad at either of them. They’re just humans both trapped in a shitty world. Except this world is controlled by the Dark God Willis, who enjoys pain.
I really don’t think “self care” is a good way to describe Joyce’s weekend. One aspect of what Becky is doing here is making darned sure Joyce doesn’t have to face her parents herself.
why becky shouldve waited is simply because joyce totally had everything under control. shes got a “plan” and everything will be fine. becky shouldve waited for joyce to give a signal or just not gone there at all. not because the dad might be homophobic but because she should respect joyces decisions in this situation. shes trying to sort out her life
she stated earlier that she just wanted everything to be the way it used to be. so let her have this weekend maybe? and it doesnt really matter if her plan is to fake it. its her plan and she believes it will work, so why go against her plan?
Things can’t go back to the way they were, her parents know that a friend of their’s, a community member, aimed a gun at their daughter. They’re gonna swarm and coddle her, be overprotective, and then try to soothe away any doubts she has in her faith. While affection from her parents would be great, the affection is more in line with “oh our precious daughter, we know something bad happened, but you know God had a plan, right? And Ross was only trying to help his misguided daughter. Poor Becky, so confused. If only she let Ross help her…” There is NO WAY things can go back to the way it used to be. Joyce is already very angry and tense. Being in that atmosphere i gonna make it worse. Whereas Becky should have been cautious, Joyce’s parents already knew Becky was there. She’s not some spooky gay boogeyman, hiding in the shadows and waiting to pop out and scare them. They know she’s there with Joyce, Joyce told them about it. All Becky did was walk up and say hi to a man she’s known all her life. She didn’t say “HI MR. BROWN I LIKE VAGINAS”, she just told him about how Joyce ate sushi and didn’t like it, obviously joining in on an inside joke about Joyce’s picky eating. And Becky was gonna try to come with Joyce anyway, so…
i cant help but notice that youre bringing up vaginas in this even though i didnt say she should be cautious because of homophobia.
oh and so youre saying that dorothy is the spooky atheist boogeyman? all of them were supposed to stay away, not just becky
Then…why else does she need to be cautious around Joyce’s father? Why else can’t she walk up to him and say hi? Why ELSE is Becky reminding Joyce’s father that she exists gonna ‘ruin’ her plan to go home and be safe? Because of her haircut? Because of the almost shooting?
I mean, there’s no other reason why Becky is now ‘messing things up’ by saying hi to Joyce’s dad. It’s the homophobia right? Because it’ll make him uncomfortable, because of what happened due to the homophobia? Dorothy was told to stay away, yes. Something which is kinda moot cause Joyce’s dad already knows about her atheist best friend. Joyce had Dorothy stay away because she’s scared she might set her off, and tiptoeing around him like this isn’t healthy. As Emily said, Becky is going home with them AND Becky knew Joyce’s father prior to this incident and to the college.
Dorothy doesn’t personally know Joyce’s father, she wouldn’t really drop by to say hi. Becky has known him all her life. And again we circle back to how you insist that you don’t sh should be cautious due to homophobia, and yet I cannot fathom any other reason why she would have to be. She’s not an atheist, she belongs to their church, she is Joyce’s best friend, and she’s from their neighborhood. Becky got this reaction because she is gay and apparently shouldn’t show her face to anybody she knew from her previous life now.
For some reason I can’t reply to you, Shiro, but I wanted to thank you! I appreciate your appreciation 😉 I don’t know if maybe it IS just because I’m paying attention to the comments now, but it seems like the past several comments for the pages have been so…extreme. Hopefully tomorrow’s comment section isn’t so extreme…
no, really. please stop assuming everyone who dont think like you think the exact same way. im not even thinking that mich about hank when it vomes to this. i even stated that i dislike that becky just ran in and interrupted *because joyce probably wants to have some alone time with her dad and theres a reason why she didnt just bring becky with her to her dad from the start. im not concerned about hanks potential homophobia, i dont care if hank would feel offended by her fucking sexuality. i just want joyce to get to talk alone with her dad for a little. is that so difficult to understand? im gay, yes. so please stop thinking “oh here comes another hetero who wants us innocent gays to hide forever”. just stop and freaking listen to other peoples opinions maybe?
Please stop assuming, she says as she assumes. I never said YOU were a homophobe. And you certainly aren’t listening to my opinion. JESUS. You are the rudest person I have EVER MET. You are putting so many words into my mouth. I never said you were a homophobe and I never said gays were innocent. Fucking Christ. You have a point that Joyce needs alone time with her dad, but you were acting as if Becky descended like the god damn anti-christ.
How the fuck are you gonna sit there and scream at me to listen to your opinion when you won’t even consider mine? I considered your’s, you just didn’t explain anything beyond Becky ‘ruining everything’ and giving Joyce her weekend at home so she can pretend everything’s back to normal. That ain’t gonna happen. How about you do a little ‘practice what you preach’? I’m done with you.
She won’t ‘just have this weekend’ something huge happened to their community, her parents are going to try and make her see things from their viewpoint. We don’t know what that point is but it’s unlikely to be what it should be. And Joyce won’t have any backup and will be trapped ina place she’s used to being obedient and mindless.
This weekend that every time it has come up, she has talked about how much she’s dreading it? That‘s the weekend you’re talking about ‘letting her have’?
Yes, Joyce wants everything back the way it was, but she’s not stupid. She knows that isn’t going to happen, and she knows that the best case scenario of this weekend is her family not disillusioning her more than she already is.
@skdk, You are not paying attention to the story. and are following your own head cannon.
Joyce, did not decide to go home, or decide to go home alone of her own free-will. OK?
That’s something you made up.
( why you may have, I will get to later )
Joyce did **not** decide to take a break and go home for self-care, that’s something you made up. Its not true.
Im not going to parse this. Its black-and white.
Joyce did **NOT** decide she wanted to be alone; she was acting out of fear, and a sense of intimidation.
That’s why everyone snuck downstairs to watch Joyce. Its fraternal concern.
Joyce isnt Dina. Shes not an introvert per se. She didn’t ask for alone time to recharge. OK?
She was forced into going home against her wishes;
and her home-life is sufficiently coercive and restrictive, she feels she cant refuse without triggering a punishment.
( Have you ever felt that way? Have you ever felt that you had to pretend things were Ok at-home when they were not? I’m asking becuase thats why you are projecting onto the text. Thats classic dysfunctional family ( al-anon ) behaviors. )
In this home-life Joyce previously had one-perfect ally. Someone who always had her back. Her name is Becky.
And if this weekened might any way be used to draw a wedge between her and Becky ( a reasonable assumption ) on the basis of religious or scripture fundamentalist attitudes, Becky needs to be there too.
Both to have Joyces back ( since Joyce is vulnerable ) and so Becky directly takes any heat. ( and can Humanize their abstract-values onto real person ) .
After all the recent publicity surrounding Becky they are probably less likely to take a hard line to Becky’s Face.
( Not least, as it could eventually end up on the public record, in a court of law. )
There has never ever, ever, even been single page, ever , where Joyce has expressed a need to be away from Becky. ( Thats how I know this is all your head-cannon-only. )
Which is weird in-itself.
Joyce has basically no normal personal boundaries with most of her female friends. And literally none with Becky.
Joyce had to actually be taught by becky , that Becky might need some space once in a while.
@Skdk , aside form all this,
The reason commenters have come down on you so hard is your statements have internalized-homophobic values. and are then promoting and projecting them. I understand that you are not straight. Well AWESOME. ( I am sincere in that )
But, that doesnt give you a free-gay-pass to be immune from internalized homphobic values. Its the inverse actually:
You are much more likely to be sensitized to these things to manage your environment from potential harms, and to be the explicit target of homophobic value and attitudes. I dont know what your personal environment is like, but … it sounds very unlikely you have received unconditional support.
And If you have received any support, it appears it was very conditional on the account of being some type of ‘good gay’ ‘not that like those proud
( “shameless” ) ones’ .
If youve been taught this its wrong,( or that you cant be proud, or you can only be good in spite of , or indifferent to being gay ) Im telling you **THAT IS wrong** in absolute terms.
Gays ( LGBTIQ, -XYZ ) deserve unconditional support for being gay. Positive unconditional support, because thats what equality IS. That is equality.
Its Equality, because straight people receive this for being straight , from the culture. And project that deviances from this, are shameful, harmful, and damaging and burdensome to themselves ; and to the people around them.
Let me say that again: ***project that deviances from this, are shameful, harmful and damaging; and burdensome to themselves and to the people around them.** That attitude is ubiquitous in the culture, ( sometimes referred to heteronormativity ) .
This is what you are assuming that Becky’s presence will cause. Its a homophobic attitude. If you were treated this way, that WAS WRONG!
Now I can almost understand why you might be concerned Joyce’s Fundie family might act this way. Thats how homophobia works:
‘I have unease, I have weird feelings and Im going to project these onto you as the cause. Your very presence caused these bad feelings in me, Not the Bigoted culture.’
Its hate, its homophobia and its wrong. ( Its why everyone is up your shit.)
Now, You have made an additional series of automatic assumptions, which is what made me conclude this. They are NOT in the text of the story.
Skdk, its Purely your head-cannon.
( and to be crystal clear, I am not putting words in your mouth or assuming you are a homophobe. I am saying you are projecting attitudes onto the characters that imply a homophobic attitudes, needs, and motivations , outside of the text. And then, Normalizing those attitudes , and expecting the Gay Character to conform. ( this right here is what the other commenters are reacting to ! )
And if you are Gay, the first person you are victimizing here is YOU. (!!!)
You cant hurt Becky, shes fictional. Seriously, everytime you unconsciously think like this, its like you are stabbing yourself in the face. So , No I’m not going to give you a ‘free-gay-pass’ .
***FUCK***THAT**SHIT** I’m going to throw you a life-preserver , and hope to hell , you grab onto it.
( especially when it means a its a free pass to keep stabbing yourself in the face )
**Now back to the textual analysis:**
You said: “she stated earlier that she just wanted everything to be the way it used to be. so let her have this weekend maybe? and it doesnt really matter if her plan is to fake it. its her plan and she believes it will work, so why go against her plan”
This statement of your right here is what sparked this entire lecture from me to you. OK?
You may NOT consciously believe the internal homophobia embedded in these assumptions. Or might just think its some sort of necessary natural navigator barrier in the landscape. Like driving around a hill. ( rarely, it is )
This is the Core of the onion. What Ive been building to. I hope I havent lost you on the way.
Joyce out of sadness, desperation and loss of innocence , and nostalgia ; wished she could go back to her past. Nobody can! This is what it means to be an adult. She was raised extra-sheltered, in a benevolent patriarchal world where authority figures knew best and and guided by the bible and jesus and Prayer, automatically knew right from wrong.
Out of this human desire for shelter, and security of ones childhood home, you have added something in your headcannon which is homophobic: That to go there again means Joyce must shun the very central element of her happy Childhood: Becky! Thats Beckys presence is the thing from this scenario which is wrong. That Becky will burden her with her presence and keep her from feeling peace. Yes, this is a virulently homophobic reading, especially as its unsupported in the text , and literally contradicted EVERYWHERE.
First , you made the error in assuming that:
(1) Joyce’s articulation of an Impossible fantasy in the middle of a trauma ** was a real statement served up for a travel agent**, when it WAS ONLY A METAPHOR!
(2) That this Fantasy must necessarily exclude and shun Becky, WHEN IT WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE TO INCLUDE HER
**BOOM DROP**
So no Joyce made a statemtnt out of shock and trauma that wished a future impending problem , could revert to a fantasy reset of idyllic seeming childhood innocence.
You and You alone , parsed this to mean a literal statement of travel plans which necesarly included some classic homophobic shinning for the sake of straight peoples mental health.
( it pains me just to think: ‘how many times you were made to feel this way.
How many times was this toxic lie snuck in your head, that you would unconsciously export it’ ? )
The text does actually support this reading of Dorothy due to atheism. But even this isnt absolute, its conditional. Joyce knows her parents want to check on her due to the influence of said atheism, and know the violent events around Becky, and the Becky being gay.
This isnt that Joyce needs to shun Dorothy. Shes already refused to do this once.
It’s that she needs to triage and manage all these different problems and burdens, with her parents. Joyce doesn’t get to go home to her fantasy. She is being made to go soak up the burden of her parents fantasy-world , having cracks. You assume Becky is the Dam bursting. She isnt . Becky is the head-nurse and Ross is the Flood. ( mixed metaphor ) er Epidemic.
***
Finally its possible I am in error about your feelings and pressures. BUt If I am wrong, My support toward you wont be unwanted. At the very least, it could do good to some gay person reading this , that needs to hear that unqualified unconditional support is what is moral.
If I am right, then my message will likely irratate you. I’m sorry.
I Just dont know how to do that any better; or if there is a perfect way.
I might even seem arrogant or even patronizing — But I dont want to push you down, I want to pull you up.
Youll just have to forgive me for not being “an innocent gay” . I aint perfect either. Even the ones who arent “innocent” deserve unconditional support for this. Even me. Especially , You.
If I am right ( about implicit homophobic attitudes ) , then you may not believe me. I cant fight a lifetime of your cognitive dissonance on my own , in 5 minutes. BUT… BUT
I Have FAITH. I HAVE FAITH IN MY WORDS. * They will have reached out across time and space , and planted a seed of self-acceptance in your heart. IT WILL GROW. One day you will wake up , with the knowledge you don’t have to apologize, for any aspect your existence.
One day, You will feel like you are worthy of unconditional support. One day you will know that your deserve this, like every other human. You will know you were not born wrong. That your sexuality is a prized talent ( yes a talent ) and that the “innocent gay” ( “that perfect girl” ) is just a myth! One designed to trick you, to inflicting harm on yourself.
I know that we all dont “think alike”. But, *I know* there is a wrong direction, and a healthy one. And which from which.
Theres your life preserver. Now watch-out for sharks! They are everywhere.
* The proof of my faith is self-evident, existenial.
Without it, I would not have written this. The message and the message-writing begs the question of a place to land. A stranger **thinks you are wrong**, yet still believes in you. Thats what it means to get unconditional support.
Its not the hypocrisy of hate the sin /love the sinner.
Its the wisdom that overtime, with support , the path of least resistance is the sanity of full self-acceptance, over self-harm. You’ve been infected with a good idea.
Why are you being such a jerk? I personally had high hopes for Hank, it’s Joyce’s mom that worries me and who will probably spear head the conversation when they are home.
Becky and Joyce-Dad have known each other for as long as Becky and Joyce have, right? Becky half grew up at the Brown’s house, right? The outlandish behavior would have been if Becky hid from him. This wasn’t a test for Becky to pass by hiding; she has every right in the world to have Joyce-Dad be glad to see her. This is a test of who Joyce-Dad is — and he failed the first section when the 2nd thing that he said to Joyce wasn’t “How’s Becky doing?”
There is a thing called ‘tact’. A mature adult might ponder whether Mr Brown would want to see her. She might consider whether her presence might be an aggravating factor in what already promises to be an emotionally-tense and fraught reunion. Of course, Becky isn’t a mature adult, is she? She’s an eighteen-year-old girl and expecting her to act with the deliberation of someone twice her age is irrational. That’s putting aside the fact that, if you bother to read the archives, ‘tact’ and ‘deliberation’ are about as far from Becky’s behavioural norms as you can imagine. What she did is, in fact, quintessential Becky.
So, those who criticise Becky here, are actually criticising Willis for not writing her OOC for the strip.
Yes, this is going to be awkward. Furthermore, it is important from a narrative perspective as it will probably set the tone for Joyce’s time at home. How willing will they be to accept the changes Joyce has made in her life and perceptions? What pressures might they put on her? What demands might they make of her? The answer to a lot of those questions will at least be outlined by how Hank reacts here.
Tact doesn’t extend to pandering towards people’s bigotry. It is not tactful for marginalized people to conceal themselves from people who are intolerant of them it is repression. Tact implies it is the polite or appropriate thing to do and it’s not. The polite or appropriate thing to do is to not be a bigot.
… I love* how in any situation like this, the onus always is put on the victim to not ‘incite’ abuse, and not on the abuser to, y’know, not be abusive.
* for values of “love” = “hate with every fibre of my being” in case the previous sentence didn’t make it obvious
I had a nice post thought out rebutting the relevance to my original post of the reply above. However, I realised that I was being drawn into protecting a strawman.
Instead, I’m not going to offer that rebuttal because I’m not saying that Becky is any way in the wrong. What I’m saying is that those expecting her to think twice about doing what she did in today’s strip clearly don’t understand the character.
Your post starts with “There is a thing called ‘tact’. A mature adult might ponder whether Mr Brown would want to see her.” For people who are used to dealing with bigotry and victim-blaming for all their life, not reading anything past those two sentences is basic self-care.
So yeah, that’s what everyone is responding to. You could have SO worded it better.
Joyce needs love and space too, and a weekend she was dreading was starting to look like the TLC she wanted from her parents. No doubt she would have found a way to maintain her grounds on Becky, too. I’m with the poster; for Hank this wasn’t about pestering Joyce over Becky foremost, it was seeing his daughter again after a live shooting incident with her best friend. He wasn’t going to push his agenda asap; he was going to be a father first, then probs be passive-aggressively pushy, and Joyce can handle that. Becky should have stayed back because this is a time and place that will prove nothing to anyone, but which can easily be predicted to lead to conflict immediately: Becky and Becky’s sexuality wasn’t going to be the focus, it was going to be Joyce, things that happened to Joyce, and fear over what’s happening to Joyce’s fundamentalism at uni.
If you really think that the first 30 seconds being positive small talk makes it really look like this was going to be a positive TLC weekend and Becky’s sexuality was going to be a minor easily ignored side issue, I can see how you think Becky’s making a mistake pushing in. I think that’s hopelessly naive, both from what we know of the Browns and from a “Damn You Willis” perspective.
Think back on the short phone conversation Joyce had with her mom right after the event. Starts out with the TLC, Joyce starts to relax and take comfort and it whiplashes right into echoes of Toedad. Very likely, that’s this weekend in miniature, except she can’t hang up.
Becky not hiding may make the conflict come sooner, but it was coming anyway. The biggest factor driving their fear over what’s happening to Joyce’s fundamentalism is her supporting Becky and her sexuality. There is no way it’s not going to be the focus.
I don’t think it will be a side issue at all. I actually expect it to blow up the weekend at some point. But to start it just now doesn’t even give Joyce a break.
How much of a break did you expect her to give them? Until they get home? And Becky is supposed to follow them exactly how? Or do you think she should just leave Joyce alone to deal with the fallout of all this?
That’s not even true. Joyce at no point told Becky not to come and in fact it was pretty clearly implied that as long as Becky wanted to she was welcome to.
Also, one of my closest friends has a fundie mom (amusingly, Joyce reminds me of her SO MUCH, which is probably a huge factor in my never getting on the Joyce-is-so-annoying hatewagon). Fundie mom is a fundie, though she doesn’t see herself as such; she sees herself as having left the fundies. Anyway, this mom hates me for no reason whatsoever. I’m thinking it’s mixed factors of racism (I’m Iranian-American, we’re a sore topic these days) and personal issues. Prior to this, she really liked me for several years and we went to church a lot; I’m agnostic, but I do like going on jaunts with friends who have something to share. Even if I’m quietly thinking it sounds like crazy babble.
That was tangential. My point is that in an identical scenario, I would leave my friend and her parents alone, even knowing that it would be likely to blow up, because it would make a bad situation worse. I’d be there for her on the phone and we’d text obsessively, and I might drop by discreetly to go on a walk with her, but I wouldn’t do what Becky’s doing.
But Becky has literally grown up with Joyce. Joyce’s parents are as good as surrogate parents to her. They are one family. Becky’s relationships with Joyce’s parents are not ‘friend’s parent’ relationships, they are ‘close adult relative’ relationships.
I don’t know your situation with your friend, but it sounds like you are not very invested in what her mom thinks about you beyond how it impacts your relationship with her daughter. This is not the case for Becky and the Browns.
Now I’m not because that’s the situation now. Our circumstances are identical otherwise. Becky is probably going to have to do the same distancing from the Browns.
The thing I’ve learned from Becky in the comic is that I don’t have nearly enough experience to make any judgement on her actions, so I’m going to avoid that topic.
Instead I’m just going to say that this is a confrontation that needed to happen sooner or later and we have yet to see any consequences to say which would be better.
its nice to see how everyone went from “joyce is the victim poor joyce shes got the worst trauma bla bla” into now “THAT TRAUMA WAS BECKYS TRAUMA AND SHES GAY BLA BLA”
its pretty obvious that they are. when the first one was happening, people saying joyce shouldnt be an ass cause beckys the one who actually was in danger werent allowed, and now people saying joyce went through trauma are greeted by angry people saying what the people who werent allowed to speak said before
Contexts change depending on the situation. No one is saying that Joyce is doing anything wrong, and every negative post about Becky has been about “her trying to provoke a negative response”. She’s allowed to say hi.
I don’t recall her saying that at all. I recall her asking Dorothy to not come see her dad because she’s still an atheist, but that’s the closest we get.
Is it your position that traumatic experiences that happened to multiple people can only be owned by one person at a time? They’re both going through trauma, and what Becky’s doing now has nothing to do with it. She’s greeting Joyce’s dad with a funny anecdote. She has not confronted him with her sexuality. She has not questioned what side of what he’s on. You are jumping to conclusions.
Attn God-of-the-comic;
After reading todays comments ( after they were closed 2 days last week. Cmon people ) . People Arguing that Beck needs to be ‘that perfect girl’ just like they were Carla , last week;
I vote for Willis to change the name of the Whole comic , for 1 week to:
“Beckys Great Lesbian Adventure: and her Perfect Girl , Transgender friends”
This is to signal with irony, that transphobic and Homophobic comments have jumped the ( perfect girl ) shark.
There’s a difference between expecting someone to be the perfect girl, and them almost going out of their way to provoke people who they know can harm them, when they’re aware that they themselves are easier to victimize.
Ew.
People are responsible for damage they receive from provoking bears. Because bears are animals and cannot take responsibility for their stupid animal actions.
People who are dicks are responsible for their dickishness. For all levels of provocation up to needful of self defence.
Survival tactics employed by vulnerable people are up to them, and do not come under the purview of the ethics of abuse or victim blaming, which are always shit.
You just Paraphrased Ruth —before the meaning of “that perfect Girl” was made explicit by the author ( thru Carla ) . This chapter’s title
Notice that Willis Closed the comments after, giving this message the last word.
Its fair to say, You are arguing *against* the author intent for the story.
You are arguing this , despite LGBT people even explicitly pointing it out for you. Willis Nails it!
So , NO. There isnt a difference. Not all all. The scenario you troted out is what “That Perfect Girl” is supposed to shut down.
Im not even trying to shame you, or even call you out.
I wish I could just get you to consider the viewpoint in that comic.
Try it one like clothes. See if it fits.
Im not trying to make you wrong. Im trying to make you right.
I probably dont have the writing skills to get you see things from a viewpoint, that you havent personally experienced. If Willis cant , Im just a fool for trying. But I can be a fool for you
Adam, you’re being unfair. The commenters are just really wanting to demonstrate the victim blaming at the heart of this arc’s main theme so we can all draw parallels between what’s occurring on panel and what occurs in real life.
Really, all the victim blaming comments not realizing how messed up they sound to people who’ve actually been through parental awfulness for being queer or to trans people are only trying to help.
Well, they are doing a bang-up Job!
I should have figured it out sooner.
Nobody could be THAT Dense to keep Trotting out the Perfect-Victim fallacy,
When the whole Chapter is named after it,
And it was the point of a comic last week ( with the comments closed so people see that. )
Im still hoping Willis changes the name for a week.
( Or someone slips and gets eaten by a shark )
if you say anything against becky youre victim blaming even though you say something that doesnt have anything to do with her sexuality? hi there, im gay and i think that not all gay people should be treated as a victim all the time and no not all gays are innocent angels that cant ever be in the wrong because theyre gay.
i dont know about you, but my life isnt 100% about my sexuality. im nnot my sexuality. yes, my sexuality is a part of me but theres more to me than that. im a person, not a sexuality. and thats how i treat becky too
Yes, in this scenario if you’re criticizing Becky for her actions you’re victim blaming because there’s no negative outcome here in which a negative outcome is not entirely dependent on damaging actions of another person. If this goes badly it is Hank’s fault and his fault alone.
It’s victim blaming because of how it places blame for bigotry on the victim of said bigotry, holding them to a higher standard than a non-victimized individual would be.
And I know a lot of people have very strong responses to being called out on that. Because victim-blaming is very normalized in our society. We blame victims for literally everything to protect our illusions of meritocracy. But the sad truth, is that because it’s normalized, it can be very hard to notice oneself doing it.
And since a lot of people at least understand that victim blaming is wrong, they can feel really annoyed at being called out for it, because, how dare you accuse me of doing something wrong just for speaking my piece. But that’s not the point. It’s not about the victim-blamers as people. It’s about the action itself. It’s about it’s ubiquity on comment threads like this. It’s the way that it illustrates just how impossible it is for victims to live their lives to the fullest.
I mean, here Becky is critiqued for normal everyday small talk. Is held to a standard that demands invisibility and non-existence on the off chance that everyone will forget she even exists. Now we can imagine the real-life people held to that standard and how unbearable that becomes.
And how it just adds extra suffering and misery to individuals who have already been hit hard by life and oppression. It’s understandable, it’s natural, it’s socially supported to blame the victim. It’s reflexive. But that’s why it’s important for people to note it and double check themselves about what exactly they’re critiquing and how much exactly it’s on the person they’re dumping it on. And how unequally it is applied to the victimizer.
So if anything goes wrong it’s all Hank’s fault and Joyce is now sadder which is Hank’s fault too. But here in a situation without Hank Joyce is fine. Nothing but the inclusion of Becky would potentially make this situation worse. And she has every right to do so to test her boundries. But if this goes south, Joyce will have to protect her, possibly lose her father, and with that another piece of her life for Becky.
Becky needs to cut the fat. Joyce is being ripped raw.
Becky has already been ripped raw don’t minimize what she’s lost dude. She’s lost her home, her school, her entire family, she’s been rejected by her first love. She’s lost damn near everything she’s ever known or cared about except Joyce.
Oh yes. That’s all true. It also doesn’t make anything I said any less true. It’s a fucked up situation for her but that doesn’t make how that type of drama affects people around her any less valid. It may be impolite and selfish but, helping people with their problems is emotionally and sometimes even physically exhausting.
Joyce is Becky’s friend and would do anything for her.
“So if anything goes wrong it’s all Hank’s fault” – YES!
“and Joyce is now sadder” – that’s not how I interpret her face on the last panel.
“But if this goes south, Joyce will have to protect her, possibly lose her father, and with that another piece of her life for Becky.” – Hank is part of Becky’s life too. The other option here would be Becky not seeing him again?
And if Becky just showing up and saying hi is enough to cause Joyce to lose her father, then it is something that would happen sooner or later no matter what else Becky did or didn’t.
“Becky needs to cut the fat.” – Becky has no fat left to be cut.
Mhm. In the long term this is something that would eventually come up. And it might be fine and it might not. I’m not saying Becky showing up isn’t fine but maybe part of the fact that she’s kinda not supposed to be there and the fact that Joyce and him just met back up makes this inopportune. I’m not saying she shouldn’t have shown up at all. At the very least it means she rejected any opportunity for a safety net. If he doesn’t approve, Joyce has to make that choice right here and now. Can’t go home to her mother’s cooking, can’t let her last time being with her parents be even remotely enjoyable before she has to cut them out too. It’s ripping off a band-aid for sure, but with how much all this recent drama has affected Joyce, I’d say that may do a lot more damage to her than you’re making it out.
* Joyce’s parents know the confrontation with Toedad happened there, and that Joyce had contact with Becky before and after the incident. She being around there is already not a secret for them.
* Hank is clearly doing things more quickly than expected (see previous comics for how they expected him to show up later), and the two of them were already walking out of the building and talking about hitting the road. So if Becky wanted to talk to Hank, it had to be now or days, weeks, months later with a chance of never again.
* I’m never saying it wouldn’t hurt Joyce. But, again, if Becky just being visible and audible to Hank (and that was just a “hi there” for those who know Becky) is enough to cause a total parental relationship meltdown, I don’t see how Joyce would even reach her house without it happening anyway at some point in the car trip.
Again, if all the little nothing Becky did here is enough to do any damage, then I don’t see how going back home would be remotely enjoyable to Joyce anyway.
Joyce would probably have skirted the issue, to be perfectly honest. Sure it may have come up but a simple “Mom, I don’t want to talk about that now. Change the subject” would’ve stopped the conversation for the most part. And while ignoring an issue is still pretty bad it probably would’ve helped her peace of mind a bit more.
But assuming Becky is coming along since Joyce did say she could, I still say I would’ve given Joyce a bit more of a heads up so she could weave the conversation to a place where she was comfortable. Joyce is now uncomfortable and taken aback. I’m not arguing that Becky’s just plain old wrong. If you know me you know I don’t believe in that sort of thing. I’m saying the way things are playing out could potentially have a very negative endpoint and if it does I will not look back at this as the best possible way to start the interaction.
Joyce has predicted that the purpose of the parents taking her home now is to make sure she stays within the borders of her normative Good Christian role. She’s been super nervous about this.
I don’t see “everything would have been fine if Becky just wasn’t there” here at all.
As others have said, Joyce is going to have to protect Becky and possibly lose her parents anyway. They’re taking her home because of Toedad’s attempt to kidnap Becky. Becky is going to come up over the weekend. Whether Hank sees Becky now or not doesn’t change a thing.
The only thing it might do is provoke the confrontation here, on Joyce’s ground, with her supporters, rather than back home where she’s isolated.
Maybe it’s because my life isn’t a battleground, but that sounds awful. I don’t want the first (or second) thing to happen after seeing one of my parents is to immediately have some sort of confrontation. There’s a gamble that it could turn out either way but for someone as emotionally unstable as Joyce has been, do you think that’s the best thing? There’s a good chance she could just completely shut down emotionally. Joyce may have supporters here but that’s not why she’s meeting him and that didn’t really seem to be what she wanted out of this weekend. And letting her warm into that possibility is now a luxury she does not have. It’s gonna happen right here and now like it or not.
It is awful. It’s all awful. It’s going to be awful no matter what Becky does.
Joyce didn’t want this weekend. She’s been terrified of what she knows is coming. In a situation like this, you don’t “warm to the possibility” of the fight, you just dread it and try to put it off cause you don’t want to deal with it and the anticipation keeps getting worse the longer you put it off.
And would it be better for her to completely shut down emotionally, if that’s going to happen, back home with her parents pressuring her to repent and reject Becky or here where her friends will actually take her side?
Eh, Decent point. I’m not really of the impression that what Becky did was wrong or right. However I think it’s going to have some consequences and we’ll have to see how those pan out.
The thing is, people are getting upset at Becky for “provoking Hank”. However when we look at today’s strip the only thing Becky has done is to show up and make fun of Joyce’s eating habits. (Okay, making fun of that is rude. But a lot of people are saying that just by a showing up in view of Hank, a man Becky has known for most her life, is being provocative. Scratch the surface and you get victim blaming very quickly. It’s not on Hank to not be a bigot. It’s on Becky to not give him a reason to lash out at her and Joyce. I’m really going to have to disagree with my last two sentences there)
To address your comment, no one is saying Becky is perfect or that her only character trait that matters is her sexuality. There’s people saying it was awful for Becky to talk to Hank, and the reason it was awful is because she’s gay. Her sexuality is being brought up by her defenders because it’s relevant to the topic at hand.
I think it’s more that (from those people) this time is supposed to be completely for Joyce, and she needs some sort of security and familiarity very badly right now, and some space. Sure, she’s going home, but look at their body language; she seemed to be really finding comfort in her parent, even knowing there would be fractious stuff later. She would have probably handled that in a tactful way, because Joyce wants to keep her family and I don’t think she’d hate them overall if they proved inflexible on the gay friend. Becky took out the comfort and re-introduced to Joyce’s face exactly one of the things that’s giving her so much stress. It’s just not very nice, when Joyce has been so quick to challenged herself for Becky. But maybe provoked by the Dorothy thing earlier? Like, random impulse to trumpet “me and Joyce! I’m the one she’s going to stand by!” after the Dotty thing.
Did you miss the part where Joyce was super anxious and irritable and terrified of this visit? This is not “security and familiarity” for her. Leaving her alone right now is not helping her. This visit was going to go south sooner or later, and better it happen now, in Joyce’s safe place, with her peers nearby and watching, than at home in her family’s and her community’s territory (especially if Becky isn’t around)
Nah, but she wants things to be as they were. Remember her phone call with her mom? She was starting to tear up when she thought she’d be getting unconditional love and acceptance and focus on how she felt. She got hella upset (for good reason) immediately when her mom started defending Ross, but I think she seems to be wanting what she knows, even if there’s likely to be a showdown either way.
Also, I think that within the scope of fundamentalism, the Browns must be decent people. Joyce is a surprisingly well-adjusted and emotionally balanced young woman, and I think some credit must be due to the attitudes she absorbed growing up. It’s not like the bad of the situation means there aren’t other complexities and other positives, which Johce would be used to focusing on.
I shouldn’t say reasonable. I do not think that a person who can be so single-minded is necessarily going to be reasonable in even trifling, non-religious daily affairs (like a lid stuck on a jam jar, or dealing with disagreement over simple matters). Strike reasonable, keep the rest.
If I may make another correction? 🙂 I think you may have over-looked that I wasn’t saying it as an overall statement. WITHIN the scope of FUNDAMENTALISM. Hank and Carol have compassion and innate decency, we’ve seen that in how they react to their children and people within their “safe” circle, like their initial rxn to Dotty’s parents. However, they don’t let their compassion and innate decency override an ingrained bigotry. Being a fundamentalist Christian doesn’t preclude having the capacity to be a reasonable person, within the bounds of the limitations posed. Relative to the larger population, of course they’re not well-adjusted or decent. But, I was not comparing them to the population.
On your aside… making fun of Joyce’s eating apparently is only rude when *Becky* does it. When it’s Hank, it is a “perfect father-daughter bonding moment” that Becky just ruined, or so they say.
Though we wouldn’t have a punchline if neither of them did, and in all honesty I don’t think Joyce gets too upset at gentle ribbing about her eating habits. I was just trying to come up with any sort of explanation other than “How dare Becky make Hank acknowledge that she exists” for all the vitriol she’s getting today.
Its *NOT* your fault. Its not *Your* fault. Its not your *FAULT*.
You didnt do anything wrong, ( to deserve what you were told ).
**They Did** when they did that.
I know compartmentalization when I hear it. I know where these thoughts come from, because I had them. I know where they come from. I know where they lead, and I know what it takes to abolish them.
You dont have to feel bad about who you are. Or apologize for it.
You dont have to minimize it, dis- integrate your sexuality from your personality, to be treated with the respect you deserve.
( And Neither does Becky or Carla )
Straight people never say “im not my heterosexuality. I’m more than my desire to have romantic relationships with the opposite sex” This never ever happens!* In fact, All Of Pop culture constantly says the opposite message.
You may have found a way to have self-respect by disavowing your sexuality and its importance. But its a victim-path. And its ALWAYS temporary.
What happens, when that doesnt work?
The worse part is , that arrow is held in place by the person with it.
NO, all gays arent victims. But most are victims of thoughts just like these, at some point.
Its not your fault. Who ever put it on you, was wrong.
actually i think the reason why heterosexuals dont have to say “im not my sexuality” because no one ever treats them as if they are a sexuality. since their sexuality is the msot common one, a hetero is seen as a person whereas a gay person will be seen as gay. not a person, just gay. wether theyre nice, awful, annoying, quiet, self centered. theyre not a person, theyre defined by their sexuality. and now i see that even people who support them does this. and *i* dont want to be. i want to be just a person. a person who is gay, yes. but still a person. whenever i do something, i dont want someone to bring up that im gay. because it doesnt matter, cause im a person. what matters is if im happy, sad, crazy, disgusting or quiet. not if im gay. im myself and i wanna be seen as my whole self, not just a part of me.and i treat others that way too
Well, sauces are different. Food can mix with sauce. Two different foods, though, with two different sauces, most definitely cannot touch. I mean, imagine if the sauces MIXED?? *restrains gorge*
Well, I guess they were gonna have to address the elephant in the room sooner or later. Probably best to get this out of the way before Joyce is stuck in a car with him. Once they’re on the highway it’s not gonna be a simple matter to just tell him to buzz off and walk home.
Yeah. Makes me wonder how much of Becky’s motivation here is wanting to check on Hank before letting him get Joyce into a car and take her away. It’s not like that could mean anything to Becky.
If he’s going to flip out, get him to do it here where others can interfere – not just for her safety, but Joyce’s.
May also be a part of why she wants to go with – if he takes Joyce away, maybe he won’t bring her back?
Most of that probably not thought out consciously, but still driving her reactions.
doubt it tbh? like honestly to me, here Becky just reads as Desperately Reaching Out. it could well be i’m just projecting, but i don’t think a lot of thought went into this, i think this is more impulse.
Becky is the pink elephant in the room. She will attempt to stop aany chance of Joyce (under maybe parental influence) to flush underwater anything of what happened. Becky is a dutiful reminder 😉
Nice of Becky to toss a live grenade into this heartwarming little father-daughter reunion. I guess she wants to make sure Joyce’s dad knows she’s here and not going away. But that won’t do any good if Joyce aspirates from sushi-face…
So did a while mess of people forget that Becky and Joyce’s dad have known each other for most of their lives? (Remember Joyce’s “Took us to Six Flags” line about Toe Dad? They see/saw each other’s parents as adults who cared about them.) That Becky just went through a highly traumatic event with her own father? Is it so hard to believe that she would think that since Joyce came around to accepting her that Mr. Brown would too?
I don’t understand* why so many people are reading this as deliberately malicious. She waited until they were sure Joyce and her dad were OK before she walked over. Maybe she assumed that because they weren’t arguing that meant he was OK with Joyce supporting her.
TL,DR: I think it is way more likely that Becky went over there because she thought things were OK and hoping to have someone else she was close to from home accept her than that she went over to deliberately mess things up.
I wish they were. But sadly, the reality is that they’re probably doing this because she’s been through all that and so it’s important to make her the bad guy so they can stop feeling bad and awkward about societal homophobia and things like Leslie’s “sweet lesbian facts” and instead make it all about Becky, the bull in the china shop who makes all her friends’ lives worse with her “drama” and all.
It neatly cuts out the bit that itches on privilege and thinking more deeply on real-world circumstances.
I feel that even if I didn’t like the kind of person Becky or by an extension Carla were, it would be nigh impossible for me to make an argument towards it because people would paint it as some kind of Homophobia/Transphobia. Meanwhile I can hate Danny for incredibly superficial things that aren’t even his fault because he’s Danny. Hell sometimes I blame him for things that happen to him instead of that he had any involvement in.
I’m not trying to undermine your opinion, but I’ve noticed that from the way your perspective is framed, I CAN’T dislike these characters without also having a disdain for gay people. Even if there’s other gay characters I DO like. While I don’t necessarily dislike Becky, any sort of criticism seems to be met with “No, you just hate gays and are taking it out on poor sweet Becky”. And while that may be true for some of us, it certainly isn’t an absolute truth.
I do not understand where you are getting this. I have seen no sign that anyone thinks it’s okay to “hate Danny for incredibly superficial things that aren’t even his fault.” I would object to that, too. You dislike someone, you need a good reason. (You can jokingly dislike someone, but that’s not what’s going on here.)
And that’s the issue here. These people don’t have a good reason.They are reaching. They have decided Becky is this horribly selfish person, ignoring everything else we know about her. How can they do that, unless they are looking for a reason to hate her?
No one freaked out when they called Becky a bit impulsive. No one freaked out when they said she was being a bit clueless. People freaked out when they started making Becky out to be some horrible friend to Joyce.
And the same went with Carla, really. They saw Mary doing these horrible things, but Carla was the shitty person. No one freaked out when they said they didn’t think she should be skating in the halls. They freaked out when people tried to argue that Mary was justified in how she treated Carla.
And, hell, there are still a lot of people arguing that Carla is an asshole, even though it makes no sense to me. She skated in the halls. And she didn’t back down when someone was being a jerk to her. Why does she have to be perfect, but people like Joyce just fine despite all her flaws?
Becky has even fewer flaws, being a genuinely nice and selfless person. But people still seem to be flaw-hunting.
I’m perfectly capable of not liking a character because their traits rub me the wrong way. In the Danny situation there would be a handful of situations maybe where someone’d say “Well to Danny’s credit…” He’s fun to hate, like Justin Beiber or Rebecca Black. But Becky’s gay. If I don’t like sidecuts, if I don’t like her attitude, if I find her annoying, people will immediately assume it’s because she’s gay that I hate this thing.
In the Carla situation, Mary is clearly in the wrong. But it’s not as if her and Mary weren’t actively antagonizing one another. I don’t think what Mary did is right but I also think Carla’s a jerk. Most people I saw argued both sides were being different degrees of unpleasant. But once Mary dropped the Boy-bomb, it became innapropriate to act like any event that took place beforehand was at all attributed to Carla. The argument grew from “Carla didn’t deserve that” to “Carla is blameless”. And that is a line of reasoning I disagree with. A person is more than just their discrimination. But people tend to look at these situations objectively.
You can’t say “Damnit Becky”. You have to say “Damnit Gay Girl! as if the only reason you could disapprove of this is that you just hate gay people” If I hate a character’s actions and didn’t have a “Good Reason” the defense would be less than if I hated a Character’s actions that happened to be a persecuted minority without a “good reason”. I’m not perfect and attributes that I find good or bad may not align with what yours. And so I might hate something about a character you really love or be indifferent to. And you might say I’m reaching because you don’t at all share my mindset. You might not get pulled out of a movie when characters are talking in front of an obvious green screen, but some people may find it ruins the experience. Doesn’t mean I’m racist against star wars prequels (although I am).
The way I view the last arc with Carla is that trying to say “Carla is blameless” does a disservice to her character, because it carries the implication that the reason Carla doesn’t deserve to be misgendered is that she’s That Perfect Girl and that there’s a hypothetical situation where she would, rather than misgendering fundamentally being an act of violence upon the trans community, and never justified regardless of any kind of action. It doesn’t matter what Carla did, because she doesn’t deserve to be victim to a hate crime.
I agree. I like that Carla ain’t just a sweet pure girl cuz that’d just
1. Paint Trans people as objects and not people.
2. Paint Transphobic people as satan, the devil, Beelzebub and Mephistopheles all wrapped into one.
The fact that Mary doesn’t just show up and go “back to the boy dorm, dick” shows that people aren’t just constantly being hateful. It’s not conductive for humanity. She’d begrudgingly accept her until she’s forced to tell her true feelings.
The comment is pretty awful but had Carla not pushed her to saying it I feel the whole situation wouldn’t have the same context. It would’ve just been “look at this awful girl. ain’t she evil” Rather than “Trans people are people too and sometimes they’re assholes. Doesn’t mean you can just say that kind of thing.” In the same way that when I’m acting like a piece of shit it’d be pretty fucked up to call me a nigger.
OTOH, given that Mary eventually did reveal her true feelings, it’s hard to think they weren’t coloring her reactions to Carla all along.
Yeah, Carla’s can be a jerk and she was riding Mary, but Mary’s reactions to every step were stronger than justified. Stronger than to someone else? Stronger than if she hadn’t know Carla was trans? Impossible to say for sure, but I think it’s likely.
You are capable of disliking someone because they rub you the wrong way. But, if those things are something that “isn’t their fault”–which is what you said–then it’s no different than hating a gay person because they are gay. which also isn’t their fault. And while you are free to do either, it’s no less wrong.
I see no sign that “in Danny’s defense” means that people hate Danny, but the opposite. They were defending him. And the “hatred” of Justin Bieber and Rebecca Black is usually playful. You’re just joking around, not actually saying horrible things about them (or, in Black’s case, sending death threats!).
It is untrue that you can’t say “Damn it, Becky” or similar, as multiple people did.
The problems only started when people started saying real hateful things about her. It’s when they made up bullshit about how she’s always been selfish or never cared about anyone but herself or has to always be the center of attention or other shit that just isn’t true. That’s what I meant by “reaching”–making shit up.
The same thing happened with Carla. And, it happened before the “boy” drop. Itsame (or some similar name) was trying to argue that it was okay that Mary glued Carla’s skate wheels. People were absolutely livid over that. I considered writing a script that give us a block list on the site, just to keep people from freaking out, but then Itsame stopped posting or changed their name in disgrace.
Yes, things changed once Mary dropped the bomb, but that was only because it became very, very clear who the real asshole was. It became very clear that what Carla did was really minor in the light of the horrible thing Mary did.
I really loathe the persecution argument. No, you’re not being held back because you can’t say certain hateful things. Yes, people are more aware of them when you they are said about gay or trans people, but it’s still wrong, either way.
You want to playfully hate Danny, have at it. You spew hateful filth about him, and I see it, I’ll call you out the same way I would about any other character. You can say it’s just fiction, but as you helpfully revealed when you mentioned Bieber and Black, what someone says about fictional people they will often say about real ones. It’s probably the reason for the site rules.
With all respect, to people saying Becky “isn’t pulling a Walky”… she totally _is_. This isn’t to downplay what the character’s gone through. But the situation is, honestly, not about her and what she’s going through. It’s about a father (an apparently decent one, imagine that) and his daughter, who he knows has been through major trauma (and a lot of other culture-shocks and changes) in the less-than-a-month-or-two that she’s been at college. They, basically, need a minute. Do a bit of ‘we’re still your family’, recharge those batteries.
I’ve had friends who literally said things like ‘I don’t go anywhere if it doesn’t shock people’. Which is just as much a problem as cravenly seeking approval. Becky has people to be with for a bit while this pans out, but there’s really no difference between that “and she made this appalled expression- just like NOW, from me showing up!”
It’s like she’s chasing the dragon about being the center of attention, more than “hi, person I’ve known all my life.”.
Given the skipping-over replies, putting-words-in-the-mouth and “oh, people disagree with me? They do that because they’re homophobes” conclusion-jumping with this comments page today, “unsupported by the text” is not so much of a clincher as one might think.
But it is. Even if you were correct, and not grossly perverting what was actually said in all the other comments, what other people say or do has no bearing on whether your argument is correct.
The point is, there is nothing in the text that justifies the interpretation that Becky is someone who goes around trying to shock people or make them feel bad. It’s completely antithetical to her character. She’s the most consistently selfless person in the entire comic.
There is nothing in the text that justifies the idea that she just had to jump in and become the center of attention. And seeing things that aren’t there often makes people think you’re bringing other prejudices to your interpretation.
“apparently decent” is by comparison to Ross & Blaine? Or just that he didn’t openly attack in the first few phrases of conversation?
Even her mother on the phone got some words of TLC in before she turned to excusing Toedad. I’m sure they both think of themselves as good supportive parents, but that doesn’t mean they are.
If Hank is “decent” he’ll treat Becky showing herself positively, even if he’s awkward. The fact that he apparently wanted to leave without seeing Becky, who he knows is around, says to me that is apparently NOT “decent”. Becky needs him, badly. And what could be better for Joyce than her dad accepting “out” Becky.
The homo- and trans phobia of some of the comments surprises me not at all but the people who just don’t like Becky because she’s “obnoxious ” does. People like her are friendship gold. Interaction by interaction… Look how she treats people.
This is actually a very smart move from Becky and very good for Joyce.
First, Becky isn’t inserting herself into anything. She is the very center of this, whether she is physically present or not. Standing aside will not make her parents issues with Joyce go away.
Second, Hank isn’t being a “good father” in this scene. Hank is avoiding discussing the problem until he has Joyce back at her childhood home, with her mother and him and their bible, filled with comfort food and DENIED ANY SUPPORT FROM HER FRIENDS. They don’t want to push this until they have Joyce somewhere where they have the authority, where Joyce is used to acquiescing to them. Remember, the last time they tried to push their authority on Joyce at the school, Joyce stood up to them to defend her friend. They don’t want that to happen again.
Becky is pushing things so that Hank reveals his feelings too early. In a place where Joyce has been doing her growing up lately. If she can get Hank to react badly to Becky, then Joyce will go on the defensive and she will go home prepared for the fight rather than being blindsided just when she is comfortable.
This “Daddy/daughter” time is fake and Becky is going to break the facade before Joyce falls too far into it.
Yes, at the very least there’s a good chance that’s the plan. Whether it’s explicit or not, or just thought of in “family business” terms, I don’t know. Maybe even they’re mostly thinking in terms of making sure their baby is ok and giving her some TLC, but if their fundamental attitude towards the whole situation is still going to drive that ugly confrontation and without interference it’s still going to happen with Joyce away from support and back where she’s more likely to fall under their authority.
Becky exploding that now is a good thing, however planned or not planned it may be.
It’s also possible Hank will react openly and well, accepting Becky without reservations. But I don’t expect it.
The only way this goes bad is if it was always going to go bad. Better it do so here and now than later.
Well, it does happen that people are afraid of coming out of a closet and then when they do nothing happens and it turns out their family is perfectly accepting towards their own members.
Yeah the people acting like Becky wasn’t going to come up during this visit and it was just gonna be happy relaxing family time are kidding themselves. This was going to go to shit at some point it was inevitable and the best case is it does so before Joyce is isolated from her support network.
I’m sorry but I feel there is something very pessimistic about this point of view. Like Hank is some sort of mastermind luring Joyce into a sense of security so he can take her home and throw the weight of their family on her where she’s alone and vulnerable, when he can just be a father reuniting with his daughter after a few weeks. Becky can just be a girl saying hello to her friend’s dad and not a preemptive attempt at unrooting a secret agenda. This isn’t an elaborate game of chess with Joyce’s soul at stake. We’ll discover Hank’s opinions in time but until then give his character some credit. Give Joyce some credit.
I agree. Regarding everyone’s family as The Enemy is pretty reductionist. I mean, The Boss clearly knows his demo by making every parental figure so far into some sort of thing to fight against, but what are the realistic odds that everyone’s family is conniving/bigoted/useless? Also, not crazy about acting like Joyce’s ‘support system’ does not include the people that raised her but they’re instead some sort of hostile cult.
Well, they were apparently in the same church as her crazy dad. She knows well enough what that church preaches and whether or not it’s a cult, it’s certainly hostile.
Maybe not everyone’s family, but can you really blame Becky for not trusting Joyce’s parents who seemed nice, but were steeped in the same dogma as Ross? Especially if Joyce shared her conversation with her mom.
When it comes to defending Joyce’s support of Becky & changed opinions on homosexuality, her parents are the opposition, not support.
More generally, Dina’s folks are nice, as are Dorothy’s. Most of the other’s have their flaws & issues, but aren’t outright villains. We’ve focused more on the bad ones, since that’s where the drama & conflict come from.
Let’s see: Leaving alone Ross and Toedad, we have Walky and Sal’s folks (stageparents who blatantly play favorites, if you go by Sal), Danny’s folks actively run him down in the same terms that readers who hate him do, Ruth’s “sir” we’ve only seen in her reactions to but she was clearly in terror of his disapproval so yay, Robin (not a parent, but Roz’s family of note) sees Roz as a tool for her career and that’s about it, and so on. I don’t recall Billie’s family, but my money is on them not being a picnic either.
Dina parents and Dorothy’s (mom? I only remember her mother existing) are pretty much the exception. It’s not one-note… maybe two-note. It is what it is, I read it anyway, but I also don’t delude myself that Joyce’s dad isn’t going to be depicted that way.
Counter to my previous posts there is another set of bad parents we should mention; Ethan’s parents Naomi and Saul. Especially his mother Naomi, Who in her first appearance blames Amber for turning Ethan gay because she was terrible at dating him. As seen here: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/mrss/
Then in the very next comic his father suggests that he should have sex with women in the hopes that one day he might like it. Implying that Ethan should stay in the closet and pretend, which fueled speculation that is father is also closeted.
Sorry for the multiple posts but I’m on my lunch break and it takes time to research and eat at the same time.
That advice from Saul is something that Mike told him he could have done if hed stayed in the closet. Mike almost certainly has met Ethan’s parents yes? Mike almost certainly sized them up pretty accurately, yes? Mike might understand Ethan’s parents better than Ethan does, yes?
I imagine that Mike would have been slightly less involved than Amber in dealing with fallout of Ethan’s coming out, especially since Ethan seems very close to both of them. I could see Ethan going to Mike as someone who would listen and not act/react or try to smooth things over, so he has probably heard similar things Saul has said either first or secondhand.
From what I remember from Shortpacked! and here in DOA, Mike doesn’t target people when they are at their absolute lowest (and that’s where Ethan would have been over the summer) so he could have been an okay sounding board.
SFU, for sure, without qualification, without redeeming qualities that I’ve seen. And the following isnt meant to suggest otherwise. And none of the following is intended to suggest otherwise. From what youve said on several occassions i can understand why none of it is of interest to you. But i find some of the things that Willis has done with Mike very interesting, even fascinating — notwithstanding that hes an SFUA-hole.
In this case i think what Mike told Ethan wasnt that he should go back in the closet, it was that he should have stayed in the closet, even though it would have required joyless sex with women, because he could still contribute to Society — Ethan jumped on that, saying something like, wasnt Abraham Lincoln gay — and it would have been a better life than Ethan had at that moment, having come out and ending up with a “blond asshole” as his only friend. I Think That Mike was being sarcastic. That was SFUd. If he was a friend then he should have tried to help Ethan adjust to being out. OTOH, Ethan took what Mike said seriously. And then Joyce came over while Mike and Ethan were talking and Ethan ducked back into the closet for Joyce; Mike went WOW! as if he couldn’t believe what Ethan had just done; Ethan said to Mike “Don’t judge me.” I think that Mike didn’t intend to convince Ethan to go back in the closet: he said that he should have stayed there, but as if that door had closed behind Ethan, and he seemed/acted surprised that Ethan tried to present to Joyce as hetero. Still SFU, still a horrible friend, if any friend at all (Ethan originally told Joyce that Mike didn’t really have friends, just people he tolerated, and from Ethan’s point of view Mike had some value in very small doses. None of which changes that Mike is a Super Asshole. And I don’t believe that he intends good by it. (The only good I can recall coming out of one of his Mikings was when he went to Gender Studies and made Dorothy realize that she was treating Walky badly and she acted on that.) BUT Mike has been an interesting character as Willis has used him: Turbanous’ comment today made me realize that what Mike told Ethan was the same as his father told him, namely, emulate papa.
I think that Naomi should blame herself for not teaching Amber and Joyce how to “satisfy a man”, like she knows how to keep Ethans dad happy and contented. Maybe I should let myself out after that one ….
I wouldn’t argue that Joyce’s parents can’t be part of her support system, but I would argue that they would only support her in something that matches their beliefs.
It’s also important to remember that we’ve met her parents before and they tried to force her to stay away from Dorothy. I seriously doubt they intend to respect her decision to support Becky.
I kind of agree that it’s all less planned and calculated than some make it sound, but that’s still what’s going on. Planned or not.
I doubt Hank’s thinking of it that way. Just wants to get his girl home to the bosom of her family, so he can help her recover and understand why Ross did what he did, even if he went to far, he had good intentions.
And Becky’s not making a calculated move, but somewhere between saying hello to her friend’s dad and testing the waters, because she sure as hell can’t trust without checking.
It’s a shame that one person has tainted the opinion of others so much. Until now Hank has proven to be a parent who cares about his children’s happiness above even his own personal opinions. Ever since Ross showed up everyone assumes the Brown’s will act the same because they came from the same church and Joyce’s mom seemed to sympathize with him in a brief phone conversation. Go back and read the freshman family weekend strip and ask yourself if you think Ross would act the same way. They probably have differing opinions, they might not like Becky or think she’s misguided and needs help, but I doubt they’ll disown Joyce for being friends with her, or pull Joyce from IU, or show up with a rifle saying they’ll die for her or whatever the nightmare scenario is.
No, I don’t think they’ll be nearly as bad as Ross. But that’s a mighty low bar.
They probably won’t disown Joyce or pull her from school. They absolutely will pressure her to reject and condemn Becky’s “lifestyle”.
As I said above, the decent human thing to do when you find out your daughter’s best friend, who you’ve know for their whole life and likely half-raised is orphaned and homeless is to take them in. Support them and help them as much as you can. I knew people who did that, back in my college days, in similar, if less drastic circumstances.
That there’s basically no chance of that is a sign of how damaging this kind of religion is.
Hank doesn’t have to be a “mastermind” to have wanted to stack the deck in his favour. Parents do it all the time, waiting till they are together to talk to the kids and present a united front. Or when a boss brings you into his office to enhance his position of authority.
It’s a normal part of an argument/discussion in a lot of cases.
And as an outside possibility, if after all, the Browns are wonderful people and do their best to help Joyce through this with love, respect and realization for her need for change – then Becky’s presence won’t be a problem. In fact, IF they are wonderful people like that they will NEED Becky anyway, because they will need to hug Becky too and say something… something like this:
Becky is purposefully testing the waters for Joyce, before she gets in the car and winds up in La Porte with no way back. She is not being obliviously obnoxious, but purposefully obnoxious, to find out how Hank is inclined to deal with the situation before Joyce is out of reach.
In that case, it would be non-predictably funny for Hank to just go “Oh, it’s Becky. Hi, Becky! Well… traffic’s not gonna wait for us. See you when we get back.” rather than be horrified or whatever. And then moving on. (While he does owe her acceptance and courtesy, that’s about what he owes her- he’s a dad, not her dad, you know?)
Becky’s been pretty close to him for all her life, much like Joyce was close to Becky’s dad. Remember when Joyce’s parents called her to tell her to tattle on Becky if she’s around? Becky’s not a stranger, he can’t just ignore her. If he does, well… That’s not funny, and I doubt Joyce would even agree to come with him without her in that case.
I’m a long time reader, first-time commenter, so I’m not assuming that anything I can add is insightful – hell, it’s probably misguided – but for whatever it’s worth: I had the same *sharpinhalecringe* reaction to Becky here, and it’s not the first time, at all. But then, I thought about it: nothing she does here is wrong, inherently. In her mind, she might even be trying to *ease* tension. Sure, the rest of the group is thinking, “this is going great! She’s smiling, he’s smiling; one big happy! Nothing to worry about.” But there are two things to keep in mind.
First, she KNOWS Joyce. She might be smiling, but everything she knows, let alone what we know, says Joyce is NOT okay. The smile is nervous, at best. She’s an extrovert, so her way of handling discomfort is to be herself, and encourage everyone else to do the same. Which leads to the next point: personally, any annoyance I had is because, as an introvert (maybe even AvPD), it’s not how I would handle things. Not because I don’t want to, because I CAN’T. I am jealous of Becky, at the core, for being so much better at expression and talking to new people and not worrying about her personality. I won’t speak for anyone, but I doubt I am the only person with hangups.
Haha, I’m a massive introvert but very much ADHD (late diagnosis, didn’t grow up styling my personality around it). It wears me out, since I tend to be impulsive, and though I love to spend weeks on my own it’s highly likely that I’d pull a Becky in a scenario like this and just interrupt.
Yup. I have anxiety, and I often get HUGE anxious response to characters’ relatively innocuous actions just because they would have terrified ME. Once I figured out what my problem was – for most of my life I didn’t even know anxiety was a thing that existed as a mental disorder – it became much easier for me to separate actual objective criticism of characters’ actions from my own ‘oh my god no’ recoiling.
Becky is… a big example of that, yes. I love her, but nearly everything she does makes me do a double take.
She’s seriously great though.
I’m sure there are plenty of people here who qualify. It’s just hard to spot them because it’d be rude to drop into the comments and say, “I’ve got no problems to deal with whatsoever. Yay!”, you know?
Aw Becky. Seems like it’s intentionally leading up to being weird but I hope he just still acts like her best friend’s dad that she’s known all her life.
Up until reading the comments section today I was also under the impression that she was coming with them. I misread that strip a week ago about offering to go with Joyce and when she packed clothes the other day. At first I was thinking “Wow, this weekend is going to be aaaaaaward”.
I sure hope she IS coming with them. Most of comment section seems to be absurdly oblivious of most context to this… Becky’s presence would help Joyce a lot.
I don’t think she has been. Certainly not that it’s been confirmed.
We know she told them in the phone message after the incident: “Becky is here. She is going to stay here, with me.”
There seems to be a disconnect here, and I’d like to address it directly: there are more than a few readers who don’t really like the Becky character. This should not automatically be reduced to “those people are closet homophobes” or just plain “those people are homophobes”.
Not to say that homophobes don’t exist, but I would argue that a lot of us simply find her to be a one-note Poochy of a character. (Right down to “When he’s not onscreen, someone will ask ‘Where’s Poochy?’)
“But Joe’s one note”, is also an argument. He is one-note, but he’s not also tacitly praised by the comic for that.
In any case this is a reaction to a comic character, not a referendum on lesbians in general or to anyone’s RL life experiences in particular.
While I agree that there’s a disturbing trend in the comment section to accuse other commenters of various extremes, more often than not, it seems to be because people who don’t have extremist views are still able to give the impression that they do.
When a discussion gets very passionate it’s not difficult to see how a comment that tries to criticize Becky’s behaviour separate from Becky herself can give the impression of being a bongo rant about how homosexuals need to consider how they affect people around them by not going back in the closet when they’re in public.
Sometimes, the best way to avoid saying anything offensive, is to say nothing at all.
>it seems to be because people who don’t have extremist views are still able to give the impression that they do.
Well… you find what you’re looking for, I guess? If you’re cruising for enemies, you’ll eventually find them. Even better, the ones you find that way will insist they’re not enemies, so then there’s the joy of rooting out Hidden Evil or whatever.
I’m not making a claim that I don’t see people be unfairly compared to Toedad or have their arguments infantilized to the most immature drivel imaginable. I’ve even seen people be presumptiously accused of being cisgendered heterosexuals who can’t understand what it’s like to be neither. (Spoiler: Turns out they could)
I’m merely making a point that often a major factor is that people speak on a subject in which they sorely lack the experience to properly articulate their thoughts in a way that can’t be easily misconstrued.
I’m speaking from personal experience. I don’t remember which page or which point I was trying to make, but suffice it to say, it turned out much more horrible than I intended. My intention however matters little if I can’t articulate it properly.
There is a disconnect, but that isn’t it. Because no one has argued that you must be homophobic if you dislike Becky.
Everything that has been argued has been against specific claims by others. That claim has never been “I don’t like Becky.” It’s always been claims about Becky’s character that are easily refuted if you’ve actually been reading the comic. (I’d refute them again, but you can just scroll up.)
Furthermore, the type of homophobia that is being alleged here is not some blatant hatred of gay people. Barring trolls, I don’t think there’s anyone reading this comic who could be that homophobic. The allegations are about much tinier forms–forms that you only notice about yourself if you’re very introspective.
To give some real world examples: have you ever seen gay people kiss? Did it weird you out in a way that straight people kissing does not? That’s homophobia. Did that gay person hitting on you in the same way a straight person might make you feel grossed out, that’s homophobia.
Combining these two things, it should become clearer what is actually being argued. These people seem to show a hatred towards Becky that isn’t justified by their claims. So they likely hate her for other reasons that they can’t articulate. And what’s the big neon sign over her character? She’s gay. Could it be that unintentional homophobia is what is driving people to hate her so much?
The issue is that it doesn’t make sense to vehemently hate someone that has never been portrayed as a horribly immoral person. Sure, you find her annoyingly one-note? Okay. That’s a criticism of the writing. But that’s not going to make you argue she’s selfish and a bad friend. That’s not going to make you talk about how horrible she is for daring to talk to them like a normal person.
And, the thing is, it’s only a handful of people. It’s IJ, who argued that Becky had constantly been ruining Joyce’s life. It’s Yamatoe who tried to argue that Becky has never thought about anyone but herself. It’s Viktoria who argued that Becky intentionally tried to fuck up Joyce’s life (and was told multiple times how offensive what she was saying was by an actual gay person and didn’t even try to soften her response). Then there’s Rabid Rabbit who flat out gave every reason why Becky was perfectly justified for what she did, but that that somehow was the reason she found her annoying.
Building off some of your points, it’s worth noting that part of institutional homophobia is the way that we as a culture do not have a baseline of genuine equality. What is modeled as normal, what is reflected in our reactions to queer characters is often skewed in ways in which a queer character has far less room to fuck up and just naturally feels like they’re doing something wrong when they exist. And where queer characters are held to higher, sometimes impossible standards.
And that aspect is not because people are cackling villains who even remotely intend to perpetuate homophobia. It’s because that baseline inequality is our normal. It’s modeled as our normal.
And that means that individuals contributing to cultures of unfair or unsupported hatreds of Becky and that institutional homophobia are not bad people. They are following what is normal.
In the same way that it is modeled as normal for people to react to people saying, hey, this stuff really hurts me as if they are taking away their freedom of speech.
And it’s really hard to break away from that or even notice it is happening and since it’s not as flashy as direct homophobia, it can be really really hard to notice and even harder to get rid of.
So yeah, I guess I just want to say to every person who feels hard done because I or others are calling out your statements and noting the concerning or triggering aspects of them, it does not mean we feel you are a bad person or a full-on villain. We don’t think you’re actively trying to harm or contribute to hateful culture. We know it feels you are making a perfectly innocent statement and people are blowing it way out of proportion. We know that what you are doing is normal and that any skew does not originate in you.
But that contribution can lead to situations like this thread. Scroll up, see how the comments shitting on Becky drown everything out. Now imagine you are a Becky. Or have been a Becky in the past. Now imagine you see that. How would that feel? Would this thread feel safe? Would they understand that all the statements about how dare Becky be so “you know” and make Joyce’s life harder because now the homophobia is closer to the surface are not intending to apply to them?
Would it stop triggering their own memories of being told that they should be not seen and not heard? Would they feel valued by the people on this thread? If they are suicidal, would they feel bolstered to continue on another day?
These little things are droplets in a storm and altogether, it builds something genuinely toxic. I know no droplet has anything but the best of intentions. It’s just… well, the storm is and continues and is normal.
I would some small points as it relates to Becky .
You have correctly explained how becky ( and LGBT People ) are held to a different standard and their faults are taken out of proportion.
All true.
However this is a Flip side that is just as insidious.
Not recognizing their virtues, when they occur.
This is harder thing to see, as its a lack. Every character here has both virtues and vices. ( Even Mary does Chibi drawing at a reasonable price. ) .
Once you see it, its hard to unsee. When a person or character’s vrtues get ignored its easy to miss how any faults are blown out of proportion.
But to do that a person has to actually cross the Phobic barrier and praise ad admire the gay or trans person. Not in spite of being queerness, but just for that character.
Which is why you and i see this bias. And why its invisible to them. When these virtues are so in their face, over-the-top cant-be-missed, they are treated as Vices too.
So Becky isnt seen as Brave, despite overwhelming evidence. Shes seen as Pushy. Shes not seen as Romantic , but creepy .
( even when Joyce says falling in love with your best -friend is the most romantic thing in the world ) . Carla isnt seen as a wisecracking bugsbunny in skates. Shes the terror-on-wheels.
Becky gets zero credit ever, for being able to correctly read people, and situations she has known for decades. Or for people she just met.
For understanding Joyce, and knowing her limits. None.
and Beckys pride and positive attitude is of course , seen as emotional abuse against the straight people. How dare she like herself. She gets zero credit for openess , warmth, and emotional availability. If she wants respectable affection from readers she will need more angst and self-hate.
And at no point is the inability to see these virtues seen for what they truly are: Vices in the people reading.
Disliking Becky is totally fine. She’s over the top and boisterous and totally not everyone’s cup of tea. What’s fucked up is acting like she’s a toxic influence in her friend’s life, or worse, saying she’s to blame for the homophobia directed at her. Like some comments are.
I want to agree with you,
except ‘Over-the-top” and “Boisterous” are generally seen as positive, and even, Heroic traits.
Shes over-the-top and Boisterous —without being burdened by self-hate and angst, rage issues, or even a personality disorder. Almost like shes the most well-adjusted cast member , in her own league.
The only way these people can see her as toxic , is to turn her many virtues into vices.
Superman: Fuck that Guy. Hes too Boisterous. With that bold S on his chest. who does that guy think he is? Flying? thats Over-the-top. Like literally. A Red cape too? Goddamit the man is walking-flying Pride Parade. We get it.
Women aren’t allowed to be confident in society. A man who’s confident in himself is heroic and a leader. A woman who’s confident is a b**** or a ball-breaker.
Sadly extroverted enthusiasm, often is shamed out of men, too.
( despite being a desired male-goal, and frequent male trait )
The Big Exceptions being chasing a ball pointlessly around a field, like cat after a laser pointer. Thats allowed, and super-heavily reinforced.
And watching that. “Go Kitty, Go Kitty, GOOOO!’
um getting laid, If you are straight.
and being a Cartoon Tiger. ( and some bears ) .
I do not know what the gender rules are for female cartoon Tigers.
( maybe thats like female dwarves: rare, hidden in mountains and looks the same anyways. )
Becky’s not really one note. Her enthusiasm, her empathy for those round her, her tact whether credited or not (not hitting on Dina for example), her interest in learning and in building a life for herself…if all you read is loud lesbian, you may be seeing a stereotype where the author is working a bit harder than that.
People who judge Becky for being a gay character already planned on doing so the moment we found out, and filter every judgement of her through that lens.
Dude, people like you are a problem. You’re as dogmatic as the fundies here presented, but with a different dogma. You’re basically presenting exactly the response Briny remarked on. NO ONE is judging Becky for being gay.
Well, clearly Becky wasn’t thinking at ALL. Now Joyce’s parents’ll know she lied to them, and ‘everyone back home’ will know where Becky is. Joyce’s chance at a nice, calm weekend home is now blown, as is Becky’s cover. I like Becky, and obviously I sympathize with her, but this was just stupid.
I have officially been given a telling off by the author. I feel… honoured? I appreciate that I’d forgotten this story arc, my apologies. It’s been a bit of a busy few days for me. There are things she’s lied about, but I’ll grant you that Becky’s whereabouts were not one of them.
I’d like to clarify – I didn’t think the move was bad WRITING, not in the slightest. Just ill-thought-through on Becky’s part, and I stand by this second bit.
I actually went, “Dammit, Becky” for a reason that it looks like hardly anyone else did.
Becky currently has a warm bed only because she is squatting in the dorm. Having that warm bed depends on her lying low and not letting authority figures realize she’s living there. But I feel like everyone takes that seriously EXCEPT Becky. Just before the Mary horrorshow, didn’t we see someone warn Becky that she needed to get out of sight quick because Ruth was near? And yet Becky’s reaction was to stand there and compliment her hairstyle, until someone yanked her into a room and shut the door?
Whatever Becky’s motivations are for jumping in front of Joyce and her dad, she’s still risking a public confrontation in a public lobby. This could easily become a scene that draws the attention of Ruth or other authorities, simply because Joyce has been on edge for days. And even if there isn’t a scene, every second that Becky spends out in the open is another second in which Ruth could come along and think, “Hmmm…”
Yep. Very good point. Kinda ties in with what others were saying.
A lot of people put themselves out to keep this situation going, and it’s not ‘demanding that you go in the closet’ to expect that if there’s a situation requiring secrecy (ie, “you’re crashing in the dorm, and you’re not a student”) and people have put themselves out (say, putting you in their room and not telling the RA who is also their girlfriend, endangering their standing and relationship), that you at least put in the minimum effort of cooperating in the thing that’s for your benefit.
Now: Betcha that this whole thing works out like so-
Becky is brought home with Joyce, for one reason or another (there are different ways this could go, from ‘Joyce insists’ to ‘Becky invites herself’ to Hank not having an issue, or having an issue and not wanting to look like a hypocrite, etc). This frees up Billie’s dorm room, so when Mary pulls the trigger on the “vagrants” blackmail thing, there’s nobody there and thus nothing happens on that front.
Of course, she’d then come back, but by then it’s crying wolf.
I figure the over-under is more along the lines of Becky going, but Billie and Ruth failing to capitalize on that because it’s not been communicated to them because Becky’s presence is still technically a secret from Ruth.
I find it bizarre how many people (both in universe and out) assume ‘being seen at the residence where both her best friend and girlfriend live, during the day, when guests are totally allowed’ would be enough to reveal that she’s living there.
Well, guests are allowed (and heck, they can even stay the night), but there are probably restrictions:
– Residents can’t have overnight guests for more than a few nights
– If the resident isn’t an overnight guest, I suspect that they can’t be there past a certain hour
– There are probably provisions to allow people like staff and/or RAs to challenge people they see (to make sure the person actually is a guest, and isn’t breaking any of the rules)
Hank should WANT and be HAPPY to see Becky alive and apparently doing well. The only reason he wouldn’t would be because she’s gay and wouldn’t let Toedad have her fixed and caused all the trouble that Joyce was naively sucked up into because she stood by her friend.
Pacing. One of the things a character like Becky (impulsive and direct, which are the relevant traits to my point) does is allow the writer to move the story forward. Another character might have approched this situation differently, but then we’d still be going through their opening move next week.
Personally, the only criticism I might remotely apply to Becky is the missed opportunity of having Joyce in on this. And that’s entirely a case of “would have been awesome if she’d thought of it a few minutes ago”; I’ve been the dad two teenage girls are ganging up on, and it’s no fun when you actually have a good reason for your edicts. Teenagers with the moral high ground? Of such things are nightmares made…
Teenage children! I was one of those once! On a family trip we drove past a gay couple. My dad made a casually and mild disparaging remark. I said, yeah, they’re just like the Jews, right? He said thats not the same at all. I said, yellow star/pink triangle, that doesn’t seem like much of a difference to me. He didn’t reply to that: he knew that I was right and that he had been wrong, and didn’t mind me pointing it out. A good man, rest his soul.
Some people today believe, sincerely, that the Southern states seceded because of states rights, not slavery, but the only issue that made states rights worth seceding and fighting a war over was slavery. Anologously, the ONLY “reason” that Becky has to be “tactful” is if Hank is homophobic and she should tactful and not flaunt her existence in his face, so Hank and Joyce can get on the road while pretending that she isn’t gay and isn’t sheltering with Joyce.
Say, Hank, wasn’t your Joyce best friends with that Macyntire girl who turned out to be, you know, one of “them”? They were inseparable werent they? I guess you didn’t see any “warning signs” when they were growing up. I wonder if Joyce knew that her best friend was in Satan’s crosshairs. Is Joyce still in touch with her? I know that Joyce is a wonderful girl, but if she was my daughter I might be worried that Becky might be a bad influence on her now that she’s openly defied her father and the whole Church.
You don’t think that she’d have the nerve to show up back here and expect us to accept her, do you? Brother, that would beat all! What do the Jewish People call that … catspaw? (And they should know, shouldn’t they….)
It’s fun to supply everyone’s arguments and the reason why they’re wrong, isn’t it? No need to actually take new information on-board about people’s motivations, ever again! It’s so efficient.
Briny: I just read your posts above with Amunduh, which I hadnt before I made my recent posts, I just came right to the bottom from farther up. Your tactical reasoning is not wrong, I think, and it might have been wise for Becky to have done as you suggest AND I don’t want my posts to be read as suggesting that all the girls on the hall who are helping Becky are homophobes OR that you are. My argument is that Becky is only in this situation because she’s gay from a homophobic social millieu, and perhaps she should consider tactics, Ala Jocelyne’s advice to Joyce to pick her battles, but the situation is still homophobic and oppressive if she has to tactful about being gay ESPECIALLY with Hank.
Like you’re doing with the entire comments section? You know, popping up every few hundred comments to remind everyone that you don’t like Becky and that anyone who disagrees with you is baselessy calling you a homophobe to deligitmize you and stifle dissent?
Yeah, sounds like you’ve been having a lot of fun.
I have a purely technical question for either Willis or whomever’s in charge of technical website stuff if it’s not him: Can the “overflow: hidden” be removed from the “narrowcolumn” CSS class? It causes the comment section to sometimes get into a hidden scrolled state that’s not easy to recover from.
Deleting the page from your history will usually do the trick. I’m saying this because removing one little thing from a code can cause a myriad of unexpected & more annoying problems in my experience.
Oh, it goes away if I reload the page. Part of the reason that it’s hard to recover from is it tends to come back when I search for the comment I was reading before.
I could chime in about the whole Becky debate, but Cerberus and other have already said everything (and more) that I could’ve said, so instead I’ll be making an irrelevant observation.
Dorothy, Walky and Dina’s position in the 3rd panel reminds me of that scene in Friends where they’re all sticking their head around the door.
There were two directions Mr. Willis could have gone here.
1) Joyce travels home with her father. She and her parents have a long talk. They tell her how much they admire her resilience and independence, and wish her continued growth as long as she’s safe and doesn’t forget Jesus. She travels back to UI and pursues her well-adjusted and increasingly cheerful life.
2) Becky.
So entirely apart from the good-Becky/bad-Becky arguments, we have story construction. Which one would you rather read?
Shouldn’t have been flippant. I’m an old person who never grew up.
Base rate fallacy is essentially that a very small fraction of a very large sample can be a lot bigger than a very large fraction of a very small sample, even though the statement of conditions don’t make it obvious. I just don’t see how that applies in this case.
Are you capable of abstract thinking? Not as an insult, but as a guiding query. Apply the statistical logic to verbal logic, rather than being a literalist
Not just that, but I don’t see him limited to only two options here and certainly not those two.
Given what we know of Joyce, her parents and their religion, I really don’t see the first as likely at all. How about:
1) Joyce travels home with her father. She and her parents have a long talk. Which turns into a screaming argument when they defend Toedad’s basic attitude, if not his actions and Joyce tries to defend Becky, but goes off into abstract Biblical arguments about sin, homosexuality and honoring your parents. Jocelyne comes out to support Joyce and everything really blows up. Both get disowned and kicked out.
2) Becky goes home with them, after some heated discussion with Hank. Her presence starts the argument sooner, but also humanizes it. Her being there reminds them that it’s not just an theological argument, but the little girl they know so well and were so fond of. Things end with them at least tolerant, if not actually supportive.
I doubt it’ll be as clear cut as either of those, but there’s no way it would have been simple and easy if Becky stayed hidden.
Total agreement. I was just trying to keep it to 100 words. Still, given the choice, with no other information, I want the version that includes Becky.
Well of course. Any scenario with Becky is a better scenario. 🙂
You seemed to be imply that without Becky things would go smoothly and end happily and Becky would make things worse, which we should pick because it would be a better story.
Those of us who don’t see the previews don’t necessarily anticipate feeling depressed. Joyce and Becky both have support groups, lots more than most alt-group teens have.
The author has created two sturdy characters who each have vulnerabilities. We want them to succeed and will be heartbroken if they don’t. That’s a tribute to the author.
For my two cents I think Becky’s actions have something to do with her internal scream about Joyce and Dorothy being pretend married in class. Not in any rational A plus B equals C or If this then that way but in an “I’m going be irrational and spontaneously and do something stupid here because I’m internally upset about something unrelated over there” way. Like getting into a flamewar about politics on Facebook and being in a bad mood and snapping at your spouse later. The two events are completely unrelated but the first one put you in a bad mood which played out later.
So something that’s gone unmentioned, because of course it has, is that Walky is literally cheering on the idea of Joyce and Hank getting into a fundie cage match with each other and feels cheated that Joyce is actually having a civil conversation with her father.
That’s our Walky. He’s not good with this kind of thing. You know, feelings and emotions.
OTOH, I’m pretty sure he’d try to help, however ineptly, if it did get bad.
I know he would, because Walky is actually a compassionate individual whose ideas of masculinity get in the way of expressing that he genuinely cares for the people in his life.
You know, like Becky. Except unlike Becky, Walky is almost always given a pass for behaviour most of the characters would get bricked by the comments for.
Fair enough, though he’s taken his share of attacks – most recently over his joke to Joyce coming out of the hospital, which even he realized was bad as soon as he’d made it.
And here he’s just making snide side comments while Becky’s actively getting involved. As I think she should, mind you.
I think it’s kind of telling that whenever Walky gets shit for something, it’s always in-narrative, and rarely the fanbase calling him out on saying it.
Like, he’s not the worst person ever, that’s not my point, but there’s a pretty clear distinction with the way macho cishet dudes Joe, Mike and Walky get treated for their bullshit, and in Mike’s case actual abuse, and Becky at worst being being a bit loud and flippant. Seriously, if anybody ever wants to give her shit for something, it’s never something bad she’s actually done, like assuming she was allowed to plant one on Joyce. It’s always “Becky you’re too loud” and “Becky how dare you use that $20 for a haircut.”
typical hitting-return-too-soon: meant to add “immature, ignorant,” in the middle of that list of qualities. Which, of course, fits with college freshmen, some of them with extremely sheltered/privileged/effed-up upbringings. :p
The list of characters I actually like in this strip (as opposed to, like, “I wanna see what happens”) is pretty short. This is even allowing for the whole-lotta-trauma-goin’-on proviso.
Dorothy, to a point, I guess. Sarah, when she’s not all a fan of her own curmudgeonliness. (See, if you’re in rapt fandom of what a crank you are, that’s a problem. Just being a bit cynical is something else entirely) The as-far-as-I-know unnamed muslim student who works the front desk at the dorm. Riley DeSanto, because CEREAL! enthusiasm- I’m picky but I’m not a monster, you know!
As far as their reaction is concerned, I think they’re both all too aware that one of Hank’s best friends aimed a gun at Joyce. And now the daughter said friend kidnapped at gunpoint is right in front of them too. I could be wrong, but they’ve looked awkward through the entire page, the way people act when they’re trying to avoid the same subject that’s on everybody’s mind.
Joyce is going home for the weekend to talk with her parents about Becky, Toedad, gayness, and how God does or does not tie into all this. Jocelyne her sister (who her parents think is her brother) will be there for moral support or to add even more fuel to the fire.
On the surface, Joyce is going home because her parents are worried about her after her involvement in the campus shooting and attempted kidnapping. They want to reassure themselves that she’s alright and provide some care and comfort. That’s all perfectly normal, good healthy family reaction. (and frankly I’m surprised half the kids aren’t being dragged home this weekend, even if they weren’t directly involved.)
Below the surface, as Captain Button said, they’re worried about her soul being corrupted by atheism & lesbianity. It’s gonna be ugly.
I learned something new today. My mother is cartoonishly racist, on top of being transphobic. I am literally running out of the energy to deal with her. I cannot leave home as I have no job, no real money, and no friends willing to support me while I try to lessen my interactions with her. I need advice bad and this is the only place I can think of to get some.
This might not be the best place to get advice, but I’d look into, like, low-income places like hostels and halfway homes? They also usually have contact with temp agencies and such.
Get in contact with a crisis hotline. There are numerous youth hotlines and probably one for your own particular state or country or maybe even city. With them you can go in-depth and hopefully get help figuring out on how to deal with your particular situation. They are all there because they want to reach out.
If the transphobic part pertains to you, there’s the http://www.itgetsbetter.org/ project.
There you can find, among other things, a couple of places to contact for more specialized support than a normal crisis line.
My advice will be a little broad as I’m not sure of your exact circumstances, but hopefully some of it will help.
First up, make sure you keep having sympathy and empathy for yourself and you forgive yourself when needed. Getting out of situations like that often take time, so in the meantime, it may be necessary to just start eliminating how much time you spend with toxic people like your mom, which might mean just walking away when she’s going on a hateful rant or literally leaving the house if you feel your life or safety is in danger. Self-care will be critical during this time, make sure you schedule some and make sure you are easy on yourself if you don’t quite meet your own standards.
Two, if you are a flavor of LGBT, research what the local LGBT center for your location is. These often have a wealth of resources for both queer youth in crisis and practical advice for those who’ve had to ride out or escape toxic family environments. It can also be useful to have community as it can allow an outlet for how bad things are at home.
Three, take advantage of whatever the state health insurance is to try and get a therapist if possible as they’ll help you with short-term survival as you build up your eventual method of escape. This will also help for processing out the hurtful things your mom might be saying in your direction.
That page also has a Resources section with a lot of different resources for various issues.
Four, if in crisis, please seek out crisis hotlines as Havtorn notes. Suicide Prevention Hotlines or the metanoia “Suicide: Read this first” page can be absolutely critical if you are hitting heavy crisis mode.
Fifth, please believe that you will get out of this. I know you are exhausted with her crap and it’s deeply painful, but you will eventually get out. In the meantime, focusing on one step at a time can be critical, focusing just on trying to get a job or finding a safer way to be homeless in case things get unbearable. But don’t make it a mission wherein you never take breaks or take care of yourself. Above all, be compassionate towards yourself.
Beyond that, please let me know if there’s a specific issue you need direct help with, just know that we’ll have your back and you’ll get through this.
No. He’s an asshole.
Like Black Hat Guy over on xkcd, and other notable assholes (some fictional, some not), he’s acquired a fandom for being a jerk to people who “deserve” it or “need to hear it”… but that’s a convenient and ultimately toxic justification, IMO. One can find reasons and excuses to wish suffering on almost anyone… and Mike serves as proxy, allowing us to see our darker impulses acted out and “truth” spoken while our own hands remain clean.
I am quite sure that Boomboom and Spencer were speaking in Sarcasm, a language that negates its own statements. They (and I) agree with you. Mike does not speak for us.
Upon rereading, Hank’s reaction here doesn’t look nearly as extreme as Joyce’s. He looks more surprised than shocked or repulsed or anything like that. So here’s hoping his reaction won’t be the worst.
Loading ...
DisGonBGud.gif
Am I a bad person for wanting to see all the hell break loose?
Please, we’re talking about Joyce’s parents.
All heck’s gonna break loose.
“Hi! I’m Becky! I don’t think about the consequences of my actions because if I did, I’d get super bummed out! Plus, being impulsive is part of why I’m just the raddest! Rock on peeps!”-what I hear whenever I look at Becky.
She doesn’t seem very good at impulse-control, now that you mention it.
There’s “pulling the bandage off fast” and then there’s “Hey, what’s under this tourniquet that needs to be removed carefully? (Gush!)”
I’m gonna say that she did think about this one. Joyce’s dad was being strangely nice and and good and maybe she didn’t want Joyce to forget the bad stuff, so she threw herself into the fray to make the dad act mean. Of course this is just hopeful thinking.
I sincerely doubt that’s it.
Becky is impulsive but she wouldn’t intentionally do that.
Popcorn2.tiff
… That sounds like Mary, if she were willing to use her powers for good.
And yes, despite the suffering involved, I think “Reminding her that her parents are intolerant so she doesn’t just blow it off because things are going nice this time” is good. Though I have no idea why I keep coming here to comment, since I still haven’t read this through.
Yeah, that’s very unlikely.
On a completely unrelated sidenote. All the people reading Becky like some sort of supervillain seeking to hurt people is giving me flashbacks to all the people who tried to argue during the Toedad hunts Becky arc who tried to argue that it would be such a “good twist” if it turned out that Becky was an evil gay liar who lies and Toedad was actually just an awesome caring dad trying to stop her lying gay ways.
Like, it’s at the level where it’s a) no, and b) what comic have these people even been reading to be able to interpret Becky’s character this way?
This comic, they’re just reading it through their twisted worldview. I remember in QC when Marten’s Dad first showed up there was someone who came into the forum angrily claiming that gay men are inherently incapable of caring about their families, because his own father had “abandoned” his family (it was never clear whether this is a case of being a scumbag who happened to be gay, or if the father just couldn’t handle their bigotry and so cut ties) so clearly all gay people would do that.
Are we really going to get these “This character is the devil and deserves whatever they get” comments whenever anyone LGBTQIA does anything in this comic? ~.~
Because I don’t hear any of you people saying this about Joe. Or Mike. Or Jacob.
Ok, I had to sign on just to say ‘Mike deserves to have his entire life blow up in his face.’ Because, even as someone who has left college long behind them, I have no sympathy for him, and whatever makes him such a jerk. He’s a sick puppy and he’s going to do serious damage someday unless he’s stopped.
Honestly, Joe scares me a lot. Hopefully he hasn’t committed sexual assault yet, and someone will upside him in the head and get through before he does, but he teeters on the verge of harrassment way too often. If he were to pick up a (curable) STD, I would be all like “Karma!”
I have some sympathy for Becky, but Willis has already shown us that she’s not in a good headspace right now to make good choices. She’s upset, to start with, and Becky has shown that her response to being upset is to stir the Shinola. She’s done it before. The fact that her traumas and her coming out are what are pushing her to do that stirring is worthy of sympathy, but this is still a bad choice, and one coming from a state of poor judgement.
While confronting Joyce’s dad may be a good truthtelling measure, it’s unlikely to allow the object of Becky’s affection the time and space she needs to come to terms with everything that has happened to her and how that involves her family of origin.
Poor Joyce. Poor Becky. But jeez, Becky, way to take your best friend with you on your Nuke Them From Orbit tour.
It’s come up. Both with Mike and Joe, though I don’t recall anything with Jacob.
There was a lot of analysis of Joe just a little while back during the fake marriage bit. IIRC, mostly the same people defending Becky here were criticizing Joe there.
Mike’s a little odder. He gets some slack from the Shortpacked version and from generally being over the top & cartoony. For some, he’s just not real enough to attack. Others think he really is an ass.
I feel like if I were to evaluate Mike as I would a real person then yes, he is a complete ass.
On the other hand, it almost seems like he walks a weird line between a jerk who just screws with everyone for the hell of it, and some sort of… I’m not really sure what the word is, but it seems like half of his dickish behavior is actually aimed at forcing characters to own up to their mistakes, see past their own excuses, or face some unpleasant decision. Except for punching Joe in the face repeatedly at Joyce’s request. That was pure physical comedy.
Of course, this all depends on whether or not Mike is actually orchestrating all this on purpose, or if it’s all an unintended consequence of being an asshole. It would be easier to get a read on him if he were actually present whenever shit hits the fan and we could see if he actually makes an effort to help or not when it matters.
I really don’t buy the “Mike is trying to help by forcing people to confront their mistakes” argument. Partially because Mike never did that in the Walkyverse; if anything he took great pleasure in making peoples’ lives worse, and partially because of all the genuinely horrible actions he’s taken. I’m pretty sure he’s just meant to be an occasional joke character.
And like, if it’s true… so what? It’s still disgusting, and presumes that Mike is in a place where he should allowed to mete out abuse as long as it has a positive ending.
Silly, they’re not girls! Women get this treatment as characters in general, and being LGBT+ only makes it worse.
Mike is an awesome force of nature and the help you never want. He may force people to face their own contradictions because he enjoys being a jerk, but that doesn’t make him any less useful. What we have here is a immature form of the Walkyverse Mike, a dumber version if you like, but still recognizably Mike.
Mike literally told Amber that her preferences in men meant that she was doomed to be an abuser.
He can’t be this awesome force of nature and an actual character at the same time.
She’s a big fan of Representative DeSanto.
Becky would certainly support banning cancer.
But Cancers are great people! I mean, yeah, they’re jerks, but they’re basically good people. Mostly. Well, they mean well. I guess.
Yeah, you’re right. Fuck Cancers.
Fuck you too buddy 😀
I’m kind of hoping he I use flat out hugs her and tries to make sure she is okay. Thus revealing that he’s not as shitty a Christian as his wife, but that he upholds her teachings in the house.
Fracking autocorrect.
That would be awesome, but I can definitely see him doing that and then chiding her for her “choices” in friendship later on in the car. Basically a similar small comfort and then pulling the rug from out under her that her mom did.
I could see the Browns questioning Joyce remaining close with her best friend, but what choices in friendship would they chide Becky for? I doubt Ross has told anyone about the Pokey Man girlchild that deceived him.
They know he’s in jail “because” of her. (And by that I mean he’ll put all the blame on her, he’s in jail because of the shit he pulled, not defending him on that front.)
That’s what I meant, sorry. That he’ll emotionally hit Joyce for her “choices” in being friends with her in a way that’ll unintentionally hit Becky or he’ll chide Becky for her “choices” in sexuality and parental obedience in a way that minimizes the true horror of Toedad’s crime.
That Deceptress!
That would be nice, but I’d be worried that if that happened then all the parent couples we see would be Overbearing-Mom/Ineffectual-Dad types. Not to say DoA doesn’t have its share of Bad Dads, obv, but they all sort of appear solo, either divorced or widowed. Besides Dorothy’s parents the rest would seem to fall into these two categories, though I could be easily missing something.
Considering some of the insights the author has given into his own Fundie upbringing (and the fact that Joyce is autobiographical), I really hope you’re right.
We haven’t seen Hank without Carol before; it’s possible he’s fairly moderate but ‘plays along’ with her to avoid conflict. (For lack of a better description.)
yeah, i’m kinda bothered that hank’s first move wasn’t “i’m so glad you’re okay” but instead “i’m so glad you haven’t changed”.
“You haven’t changed” is a really common thing to say to someone, let alone your kid after they’ve been away at college. I can’t imagine Hank meant anything sinister by it.
it’s…probably more related to me and my personal experiences tbh.
like, as someone who grew up in a more evangelical-flavored fundie background, the stated goal for me as a good christian girl going to college was to not change anything important about myself or my morals. because college was sort of notorious for being a corrupting influence?? a lot of good christian kids would go to college and then leave the church. which people’s morals evolving and changing is apparently a Bad Thing, as is being exposed to more of the world. acknowledging gay people’s existence, let alone trans people’s. being kind to people who’ve had abortions. allowing the world to be bigger than the church, essentially.
idk there’s this real thing in the churches i’ve been a part of where you have to specifically control your intake so that you don’t become corrupted. you have to walk the straight and narrow in every aspect of your life, you have to be this particular person and if you’re not you’re a bad christian. and the gossip can be insidious and vicious, because people are human but they’re held up to these standards that nobody can possibly reach and they’re taught to feel bad about themselves all the time because they’re not good enough, never going to be good enough. and –
there’s this specific kind of patriarchal controlling that comes with being daddy’s little girl. because you do your best to please and you try to be perfect, like a disney princess, but disney princesses aren’t real people and they don’t have the kind of real problems that can’t be solved within the space of a song. but you’re still really encouraged to fit that perfect image of what a girl ought to be: which is a static image. Aurora asleep on her bed waiting for true love’s kiss, essentially, but true love never comes because she’s never allowed to get up and go looking for it. she’s not an active participant; she’s always passive and moldable. which for a long time was the ideal woman in american society.
so like – at this point i’m probably way overreading it, although this chapter is called “that perfect girl” – but Hank not meaning anything sinister by it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a heckton of cultural baggage along with it. which is, essentially, the problem.
so like it is kinda heartwarming because both Hank and Joyce are trying to go back to a space where things were simple and nothing had to change. but like simpler is sort of a matter of perspective – the world was always this screwed up, Joyce just didn’t notice until now, and it’s a manifestation of white Christian privilege that the world was allowed to be that simple and black and white.
Hank might not have, but Willis did.
It’s pretty obviously a callback both to Becky’s “Don’t let anyone change you” from Mov-in Day and to her later “I’m glad they did”.
I think it would be deliciously awful to have Joyce feel so cornered that she breaks out the gay-shaming on Becky in front of her dad.
That would be utterly heart-breaking. 🙁
Ouch!!! That would be cray cray
Joyce just stood up for Becky in the face of death itself. This is going to be painful however it goes, but I don’t think Joyce throwing Becky under the truck is going to happen.
Sometimes standing up to family can be scarier than death.
Joyce has already stood up to her family over Becky.
Though, admittedly, via voice mail, not face to face, but it’s still a point against breaking, just not the strongest.
Yeah absolutely. It was just a little worrisome since she been having angry eyebrows for a few strips. You know his important those eyebrows are ‘,:)
Couldn’t agree more. Cornering Joyce between rocks and hard places doesn’t seem a very loving thing to do.
I dunno, after everything Joyce has stood up for, and stood up to, I can’t imagine her giving up on Becky like that.
*plays the Charlie Daniels Band’s “Devil Went Down To Georgia” on the hacked Muzak*
Charlie probably would not like DoA.
All the best people want to see that.
No. This will be glorious and I’m so excited to see what’s coming next.
Ooh, that sounds suspiciously like hope. You know what Willis does when he senses hope!
Nonsense, it’ll go great this time…
(flash forward two weeks)
nooooooooooo…
It’ll be horrible and painful, but we’ll still get to cheer Joyce being badass and sticking up for Becky. To her parents yet.
Be better if she tagged along with Joyce home. Then good times for all.
(Then again I feel like Joyce may not make it home at all)
Yeah, the way it’d stack up is Joyce alone will have a much harder time, because she won’t have an ally willing to fully get her back (Jocelyne is awesome, but terrified of jumping into arguments with family), but Becky with Joyce means Becky will be having to casually grin past a lot of crap herself and may be physically dangerous for her.
texting! it’s like being physically there but only in an emotional sense.
bEcKy sTaY iN lInE YoU hAvE nO BuSsInEsS HeRe
Panel 3: Called it!
[/preen]
Perfect timing.
Ok shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit….
Wait for it~
Becky uses Embarrass. It’s super effective!
Does she faint?
I hope not, I don’t have a Joyce in my collection! Pokeball, go!
hold up b for a better chance!
I always thought it was rapidly pressing a and b
Fools! You’re supposed to press the D-Pad in a clockwise circle while holding A!
No, no, no. You’re supposed to set the universal constants while creating the universe such that the random number generator on a particular Game Boy generates a zero at a particular time such that it is guaranteed that the pokéball captures the Joyce.
she did say she would come with joyce right? or am i imagining things…… eh id believe either honestly
She offered to, but Joyce said it would be a bad idea.
And so, Joyce got overridden.
Joyce asked if she was sure, and Becky responded with a poorly timed joke that triggered a shocked response in Joyce. Then the scene changed.
Yup, whatever you think of her… that’s Becky. 100%.
bleh, that was supposed to go lower, on its own – this was a comment I started, then changed my mind.
Which, yeah, I would normally assume to mean, yes, but only if you’re okay with it, which Becky was, but given that we haven’t seen Becky pack, maybe that assumption is in error, but then maybe this scene suggests the opposite. I dunno, I imagine it’ll get cleared up one way or another by the next couple of comics.
She isn’t carrying a bag, though.
maybe she put some of her cloth into joyces bag as well?
That, and she can go to her h (Becky’s) house and get more.
Stay there, too.
She doesn’t /have/ a bag.
….Goshdarnit Becky.
Yeah! Dadburnit, Becky!
Now everything’s shot to HFIL!
Dads are very good at burning things.
Well, this could be going worsAW GOSH DANG IT BECKY
I thought they were going to La Porte, not Warsaw.
(don’t shoot me)
tWell they’re only 60 miles apart. A bit out of the way, though, coming from Bloomington.
Bad! Bad Becky! You had one job!
Chick-fil-a?
Time for her to look for her next job.
BECKY NO
BECKY YES
BECKY MAYBE
STRONG POSSIBILITY OF BECKY
BECKY INTENSIFIES!
INTERNAL BECKY-ING!
Schrödinger’s Becky.
You can know where a Beckion is, or what a Beckion is going to do, but not both.
But there is no box -in this case, a closet- because Becky nuked it from orbit.
Heisenbeck’s Uncertain Principle.
A WILD BECKY appears!
She uses FRIENDLY OVERTURE! It’s not very effective.
FIGHT
ITEM
>RUN
Can’t escape!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMd6V1IOJ5k
God DAMN IT, Becky.
Way to ruin your friend’s day AGAIN. Way to interject yourself where you don’t belong AGAIN.
Fucking seething. I hate people like her.
*blink blink* Ummmmm, what exactly is the “first” day she “ruined”? Was it the one where she was running halfway across the state with nothing beyond the clothes on her back having just escaped being dragged off to a “reparative therapy” camp? Or the day her dad decided to come on campus and try and kidnap her at gunpoint?
Or maybe it’s all the times she’s shown a huge amount of support for her best friend, putting aside her own trauma recovery to fully be there for Joyce’s emotional crises?
Gosh, Becky is so very selfish. Really, just the worst. *roll eyes*
I know, right? If she had just reported for brainwashing camp like a good little Droog, Joyce’s day would be like 18% better right now. And isn’t that what’s really important here?
Becky has been through some shit, but she’s often rude and doesn’t think about how her actions affect others. Living with joyce in a moment of desperate need doesn’t make her a jerk. Things like this do. You can sympathize and be annoyed by a character’s actions at the same time.
Are you trying to imply that it’s possible to be a persecuted party and still by merit of your actions cause a lot of stress and harm towards people around you, and that simply because your life is fucked up doesn’t make you immune to consequences or get you out of having to take responsibility for any actions that may cause problems for the people around you since your problems are still more astronomically worse? Having an awful life is basically your “Get out of judgement free” card. You’re given the proportional amount of leeway based on how shitty your life is.
I think it’s more that none of us in this thread is really sure where these accusations are coming from? Like…I’m totally open to being proven wrong, but what stress and harm has Becky caused to those around her, with the exception of being kidnapped and held at gunpoint by her dad? Because, ah…those aren’t her doing.
Oh Becky’s obnoxious but tolerable. Joyce is kinda hanging on by a thread though and if I was her lesbian best friend
I’d be making out with my girfriendI’d probably show a bit more tact, considering everything Joyce knew has basically been ripped from her life forcibly within the first two months of college and she’s clearly desperately trying to hold onto something.But…then why are so many people acting like Becky’s a recurring toxic influence in Joyce’s life? Literally, I’m asking what has she done that people are reacting to?
Basically nothing. In the same way she has never once had a negative experience with alcohol. Becky hasn’t done anything directly to Joyce, but Becky’s appearance has caused a cascading series of awful events all attributed to Becky that Joyce had to defend her from. She’s emotionally exhausted and in a very short time had to make very big changes. She seemed to be hungry for some familiarity before being thrust into what her life has become.
So like…people are blaming Becky for the extreme amount of homophobia and trauma she’s had to deal with lately, which Joyce (as her best friend) has tried to help with? That’s what I’m getting here, and while I (again) am open to being proven wrong, I don’t see any concrete badness from Becky being pointed out here.
Did you skip over parts of what I wrote? I’m curious because I really don’t want to write it out again.
Becky can do whatever she wants. Joyce wants to help her because she’s a good friend. Helping Becky is incredibly emotionally exhausting for Joyce. Becky basically bounds through life with very few cares which is ideal. It’s probably how I’d act. Joyce however feels very aprehensive about this, especially because she doesn’t want to lose every part of herself in favor of her friends. She’s sacrificed a lot. Becky showing up isn’t wrong and there’s a good chance it’ll go fine. But based on all the drama of her being there in the first place, the chance for it to go wrong is pretty large. And while Becky can roll with the punches, Joyce is a bit less able to do that. Just compare how Becky acted once she started rooming with Joyce to how Joyce acted. Becky was loud, exuberant and immediately went out to change herself. Joyce resisted the change but supported her friend and wasn’t until she was forced to do something did she change her disposition.
Becky is a Wheel. Joyce is a Cube. Despite all of the awful things that’ve happened to Becky she continues on. Joyce has been drained by that experience. Sure, the homophobia isn’t Becky’s fault, but it certainly is based on Becky being around. And while Becky takes everything in stride Joyce is now very obviously distant and frustrated.
Pretending like everything is fine and normal on Becky’s behalf seems a little uncomfortable. Joyce is struggling to try to maintain as much of herself as she can and she is now reasonably worried she has to forsake her family. Perhaps Becky’s also bottling up her emotions but Joyce is very clearly not handling the past week very well and now the one thing she had to look forward to might be taken from her.
Shiro-
Yes. Because that’s what happens. That’s what always happens. When shit cascades on you bouncing off and hitting to a lesser extent those around you, then people blame you as if you caused the shit cascade in the first place. Because if you didn’t?
Then things are not okay. Things, big scary, unequal things in society. Unfixable things are broken. So it must have been the person getting fucked over, getting hit with the oppression. They really should have known better.
I sadly know the experience well.
Ooh, yes, that would make sense. I forgot that he showed up early. Head canon accepted.
^grah, replied in the wrong spot.
She is. She’s not pulling a Walky and saying “hi Hank, I’ve been sleeping in your daughter’s bed for a week”. She’s telling a disarming and humanizing story about Joyce that has no connection to the recent events. She’s in every way, presenting a clean normality.
And well… yeah, she should be talking to Hank. She has no family. Her mom’s dead. Her dad’s Toedad and on his way to prison. Hank and Carol are the closest things to what she has left. This is what remains of even the echo of her family. These are people she’s known her whole life. This is not a stranger to her.
And she’s doing literally nothing wrong in approaching him as a friend.
I agree. She’s clearly not malicious in her intentions. But if this goes south, would Joyce walk away unscathed. It’d help Becky certainly, and it’d help Joyce in the long run maybe. But Joyce has already regressed. This could potentially just be another notch in Joyce’s slow decent into depression. And now Joyce is denied the opportunity to ease into it and Becky just rips it off like a band-aid.
Becky definitely has the right to talk to Hank. She would’ve been wiser (careful of her own safety & finding out if it’ll go okay), and kinder to Joyce, if she’d *told* Joyce she wanted to go with if possible.
Leorale-
She did:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/elsewhere/
Nope.
Becky should walk 10 spaces at all times behind the Browns,
and then …sneak into the trunk while Hank isnt Looking.
right?
Thats the only way the poor fragile Homophobes in the readership can be comfortable with Beckys um….Infectious Uppity Lesbianship. Actually looking Mr Brown in the face? Its almost like Becky isnt ashamed of her own existence.
What? making a sushi joke? That could be a double-entendre.
Since when are Gay people allowed to tell the jokes?
Becky must advance directly to Gay-jail, do not collect Glitter. Do not go to Long John Silvers.
I saw that comic but I think it’s ambiguous, cause look at Joyce’s surprised face in the last panel of today’s! They didn’t plan this introduction or test the waters with the Browns at all. Much better to have said, days ago, “okay please let them know I still regard them as family and I want to come along, and see if they are full of transphobic bees”
(Er, homophobic, I mean. I’m just waiting for Jocelyn.)
Or, just as much, Joyce could’ve said “okay cool, I’d like to have you, I’ll let my mom know to make extra food and set up the guest bed. Let’s plan what to do if my folks turn out to be jerks.”
Leorale-
I wonder if they had planned to do that or at least talk more about particulars and fully clarify their game plan, but the ‘rents arriving early threw all that out the window and so Becky had to wing it based on the last bits said out loud regarding it.
Like, ok, we seemed to leave it at I’m going to support, but Joyce isn’t actively bringing this up. Should I, shouldn’t I? Um… Joyce probably needs me based on our convo, so fuck it, I’m going in. Be disarmingly casual and then maybe let Joyce bring up the possibility of me coming or I can pitch coming along myself.
Hmm, that seems probable. They were counting on him showing up much later.
Oh, yes, that would make sense. I forgot Hank showed up early. Head-canon accepted.
Becky should definitely be talking to Hank. From her perspective, it’s probably wise to at least get a read on this father before he takes his daughter away from school. She’s got no reason to have blind faith at this point.
Ok I don’t want to argue against giving Joyce a chance to consent, but she tends to worry a lot, especially about her parents’ reactions to things. Maybe by surprising her, she’s relieving Joyce of a responsibility to “explain” Becky. I could easily imagine a week of Joyce trying to “talk around” the issue with Becky nervously watching from the shadows. Becky can be tactless at times, but she’s not stupid. She would jump out if she didn’t think it had a significant chance of working out OK.
* She sexually assaulted and harassed Joyce (kissed her without warning/consent, continued to make sexual comments even when she knew it made her uncomfortable).
* She constantly says and does things that are inappropriate and unhelpful
Being gay doesn’t give her a free pass on being a terrible and obnoxious person. Having a hard time of things doesn’t give her a free pass either.
Generally we cut people a little slack when their entire life is disintegrating around them. It’s called empathy.
The first kind of sucked, though understandable under the circumstances. Joyce has forgiven her and she hasn’t repeated even the sexual comments after the first day or so.
The second is debatable at best, depending on what examples you have in mind. She’s a bit loud and obnoxious, I wouldn’t go much farther than that. Especially knowing that most of it is cover for trauma – No one likes a Debbie Downer.
She doesn’t get a free pass, but I don’t think she’s terrible to start with.
Yup Becky can be obnoxious.
But your statements make you look like a homophobe.
These are all classic Homophobic tropes.
How many times have you identified discussions of straight-sexuality in this comic as wrong?
Remember when Dorothy Kissed Walky?
Did you file rape charges then?
You are literally the object of Walkys joke.
You are the one asking commenters for a free ( homophobic ) pass of your own. I am not inclined to give it to you.
You think Becky is a terrible person for being fully out of the closet.
Becky isnt terrible. Becky isnt even a real person.
You in the other hand…
PS: While I wrote this I kissed my cat on the forehead. Please File bestilaity charges against me at the local ASPCA
can’t tell if sarcasm or
“Are you trying to imply that it’s possible to be a persecuted party and still by merit of your actions cause a lot of stress and harm towards people around you, and that simply because your life is fucked up doesn’t make you immune to consequences or get you out of having to take responsibility for any actions that may cause problems for the people around you since your problems are still more astronomically worse? ”
To a certain extent, yeah.
Otherwise, we drive right into “you were abused so it’s ok for you to hit others” territory.
That’s bullshit.
Becky is constantly thinking of others, to the point where she denies herself her right to collapse, because she thinks she needs to be happy helpful Becky all the time.
I mean, in this last in-comic week:
Crisis Intervention to forestall Joyce panic despite having her jealousy nastily triggered: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/darnit/
Deliberately seeking out the superheroine who saved her in order to personally thank her: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/engaging/
Seeking out a friend risking a triggering panic attack while the rest of her friends do nothing, making sure her girlfriend doesn’t feel abandoned by bringing her along: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/profane/
And offering to come along home to support said friend through an emotionally trying time. Which this? Said thing she is offering is to willingly go back to a community that views her as a literal child-stealing monster. Who will pray over her and is the same community that views her being gay as an ailment that must be fixed. This offer is not just a kindness, it’s her literally risking potentially being whisked away to a reparative therapy camp just to help a friend not feel fully alone: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/elsewhere/
Deliberately going out of her way to make sure that her friend knows that she’s not learning Biology to hurt her: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/originalsin/
Going alone to get her clothes so no one else had to be inconvenienced: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/clothes/
Making sure everyone feels thanked for helping her: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/fourwords/
Oh, other major ones? Well, how about deliberately lying to her friends about talking to her dad so that they won’t worry about her or feel they need to emotionally support her:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/hi-2/
This despite the fact that she’s genuinely hurting? Or making sure her girlfriend doesn’t feel she has failed her when said gf is beating herself up over not being able to stop said asshole dad? http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/fought/
Oh yeah, and when she was just rescued, despite having been through a terrifying experience, where she was nearly shot, was in fact punched, definitely threatened with death, and nearly killed in a car crash, immediately drops everything to emotionally support Joyce: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/damn/
Oh, yeah, and there’s the fact that she was hit because she quickly grabbed the wheel to try and save another person’s life:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/restore/
And gosh, I feel I’m forgetting something… Oh, right…
She straight up sacrificed herself for the safety and emotional health of others. She risked being tortured, never seeing anyone she loved ever again, and all manner of awfulness, simply to make sure no pain or more emotional suffering befell those she cared for.
She straight up sacrificed herself.
But still we get “oh Becky is so selfish” comments. Despite the fact that literally no one outside of maybe Amazi-girl has been shown to be so unconditionally selfless.
And that?
That’s bullshit.
Oh, forgot the last link… heh, this is going to look weird until my initial response clears moderation:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/risk/
YES.
Strongly agree. Becky is impulsive and noisy, sure, but is really, really unselfish.
Another quality smart link-bomb from Cerberus. 8-)}
Cerberus has built up so much good karma with these comments that she could actually devour a live baby and still be morally in the clear.
Oh shit, you know about the baby incident?!? Um… I mean to say… er… [DISTRACTION]
It was totally self-defense
That baby had it coming. Seriously, it shouldn’t have slathered itself in A-1 sauce if it didn’t want to be devoured.
If it’s the right baby, she’s probably immune to radiation.
Oh, yeah, all of those things. But do they make up for the fact that she chose to defy our Lord and Savoir, Jesus Christ, AND HER OWN FATHER!?
Truly, it’s like comparing apples and oranges.
For some reason I read that as “comparing apples and orgasms.”
Apples and Orgasms don’t have much in common. I think I may take this phrase.
“Apples and Orgasms” is the name of my next not-suitable-for-airplay band.
Something something original sin?
That does make a LOT more sense than comparing apples to oranges. Compared to most things, apples and oranges are actually pretty similar.
But isn’t “Apples to Orgasms” the name of a game?
I don’t know how to say this next comment without sounding really really really bitter, so screw it I’ll sound really really really bitter:
Yes, but, don’t you see? She persists in being so open and blatant about who she is! I mean, what does she expect when she basically announces it from the nearest rooftop? */heavy sarcasm*
The reaction to Becky just boils down to classic victim-blaming. She won’t go to inhuman lengths to change everything about herself so her abuser is happy, therefore everything her abuser does is her fault. Ok, yeah, she’s not exactly swimming in forethought, but that does not in any way make her deserve the piles and piles of shit that’s been thrown her way, nor does it make her responsible for damage caused by the actions of others.
That Joyce is exhausted and traumatized after what Toedad did is completely 100% Toedad’s fault, not Becky’s.
What, exactly, would any of you have had Becky do when her dad showed up to drag her off to one of those re-education camps? Go along meekly and put up with degradation and torture for time unspecified so as not to inconvenience anyone? Flee but remain homeless with nothing but the clothes on her back as winter approaches, thus risking injury and death by any number of dangers on the streets (let’s be real here – Becky does a better job of hiding it, but she’s every bit as sheltered and naive as Joyce. Bad Things would happen to her if she did that)? What other options did she have?
Becky was put into a lose-lose situation, and she chose the option of best odds of self-preservation. I cannot fault her for that, and I cannot deem it as “selfish” for her to take the least-bad option available to her.
And all that is ignoring the fact that she has consistently and systematically covered up how much this is affecting her for the sake of her friends, and consistently put aside her own needs to help those she cares about. Yeah, in part it may be due to the fact that she fears abandonment (after all she’s been through, do you blame her?) but part of it is her genuine personality. I sincerely doubt that was the first time Toedad was violent towards her (she did not seem surprised or shocked at all when he hit her, and she was entirely too good at judging when and how she needed to submit to stay safe, both of which tell me her dad has probably hit her before), and until the gun incident, Joyce had no idea what he was really like.
This.
THANK YOU. Ugh. Geez.
I think it’s inappropriate to question Becky’s selfishness, for all the reasons you pointed out and more. The thing that I’m upset about have to do with her treatment of Dina. While it’s true that Becky brings her along for a lot, Dina already feels like Becky treats her as a rebound. And now with this, (I’m going after the assumption that Becky is trying to either go with Joyce, or instigate a reaction from her father), it feels like the two things that could happen are put Joyce in a tough position, or make Dina think she’s not a “real” girlfriend. She’s probably questioning every move anyway. It must be hard for her.
All I’m saying is that we’ve seen a lot of sacrifice and unselfishness from Becky towards Joyce. I really wish she’d direct more at her girlfriend.
I included some links regarding that in the link dump, but there’s a lot more I can include. Basically, every time Dina and Becky have interacted, Becky’s gone out of her way to make sure Dina feels appreciated, talk up how interested and excited she is by her company and her topics of conversations, and show genuine awe at her girlfriend’s awesomeness.
The link where Dina is ripping herself apart for not stopping a man 3 times her size and Becky’s all let’s bring the police back in here, because my badass girlfriend biting him is so awesome it should be in the police report demonstrates this nicely. As does the bit where Dina asks a concerned question about the Bio class being boring and Becky raves about it right before she thanks Amber. And she even has been doing well to make sure she hasn’t been abandoning Dina to care for Joyce, making sure to bring Dina with her and make it a group comfort when Becky notices that Joyce just stormed off and is now in danger of a flashback because of it.
Like, yes, Dina feels she is not a “real” girlfriend and has a lot of insecurities about whether she is able to make Becky happy and with regards to being the “rebound”, but Becky so far in comic has been shown to be a very conscientious to her girlfriend, deliberately avoiding taking advantage of her, celebrating her inherent awesomeness, and showing support where she can (Dina is about as open with her internal pain as Becky), always making sure Dina feels supported and is recognized for her awesomeness.
Hell, I’ve seen real-life very healthy couples that don’t feature as much internal support for each other as Dina and Becky have shown in comic. They’re really quite healthy for each other.
Becky is Jesus
If Jesus was Jessie (specially if she’d been makkin on Magdalene) she’d totally have gotten the same treatment.
And that’s not covering Becky at the beginning. Sure, I said in a previous post that maybe she didn’t know she had a huge crush on Joyce until she wasn’t with her.
But, given everything else, it’s just as likely if not more that she was putting on a brave front so that Joyce wouldn’t freak out.
I like the cut of your jib. 😀
Becky has a right to exist and be present without concealing it from anyone, which is pretty much all she’s doing here.
Joyce is about to go home and get into a massive fight with her parents for supporting Becky. If it goes badly, her parents may pull her college tuition. Becky just guaranteed that Joyce’s best chance of getting her dad on her side won’t happen. So yes, Becky CAN be present, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a smart or kind thing for her to do. Some respect for Joyce and her awkward position would be nice.
Of course it would be kinder to Joyce to stay out of the situation, but if Becky wanted to join in the conversation, the only alternative was to hide, which has got to feel bad for someone who has gone through a lot to ‘be herself’. Becky has no obligation to go that far; it’s the difference between what someone can do and what someone should do. My point (to J) was that to ‘hate people like her’, just because her kindness isn’t self-sacrificing to the point J demands, is unfair. I think Becky is still essentially ‘kind’, and that not doing the ‘kinder’ thing in this instance doesn’t mean that she’s doing anything wrong.
I’m not sure Becky changed anything here. It’s not like the confrontation over Becky wasn’t going to happen anyway.
It might even be that seeing the actual Becky again and having her be the same obnoxious, adorable kid he knows as Joyce’s best friend will help him think of her that way instead of as some abstract representation of evil lesbian sin.
That’s actually one of the things that confuses me.
Some people seem to think that Becky’s personality is entirely new. That she started being loud and embarrassing Joyce after she came out of the closet.
Seems more likely to me that being out of the closet is the only new thing. All the rest is the same Becky Joyce became best friends with…though she probably hid it from their parents.
Given that in the very first strip, Becky joked about an “Inaugural Poop”, I think that’s pretty solidly canon.
How much she hid any of that from their parents is less clear.
I mean yeah. I have the right to be present in the ocean but I can’t get pissed if sharks eat me.
A shark needs to eat to live a bigot won’t die if they don’t prey upon others that’s a ridiculous comparison that places the blame for any horribleness that Hank directs at Becky onto her. Don’t victim blame dude.
I’m not. I just hate the phrase “X has a RIGHT to do X” as if having a right to do it makes it fine to do it. Every situation is different and in this particular situation, if things go south it’s not just herself that might get hurt. Becky may be a victim who’s been through some hard shit, but that doesn’t mean her actions only affect her. The bigot in that metaphor isn’t the shark. The shark is any kind of threat to oneself or others. This situation could turn out fine with nothing bad happening at all. But now that Becky’s just swum out to the deep end we’ll just have to wait and see if there are really sharks out there, and if Joyce will end up getting hurt saving her.
Having a right to do something actually does make it fine to do it, by definition. It’s a simplification, because it assumes that all other rights and responsibilities are being upheld by the person exercising their right; your argument is essentially that Becky has a responsibility here, for her own or Joyce’s safety, that should be limiting her rights.
A threat posed by Hank is Hank’s fault, not Becky’s, even if her actions make the threat from Hank greater. Becky is hurting no-one; she’s just not going out of her way to protect anyone. I don’t think she has a responsibility to protect anyone in these circumstances, since she has the right (hahaha) to assume that Hank will behave in a decent manner. To put the responsibility on the victim to prevent the aggressor’s actions is classic victim-blaming, I’m sorry to say, although I don’t like to use such a loaded term; in my opinion, it comes down to a flaw in your analogy: these ‘sharks’ aren’t just uncontrollable forces of nature. They’re controlled by Hank.
I guess in that same way Joyce has the right to completely abandon Becky and side with her dad if things go south. Certainly would be out of character but she does have the right to do it. She has no responsibility to protect anyone.
She took that responsibility on herself when she said that she would support Becky, besides the fact that siding with her dad would violate Becky’s rights regarding how she’s treated.
Sure you can. Sharks don’t eat people, they eat seals. They only bite people because they mistake them for seals. So if one bites you it is calling you a seal.
That bastard.
Yeah, no one should never go to the ocean, ever.
Specially not anyone who lived their whole lives on the ocean, and was literally raised by sharks, and who are sharks themselves except they’re… vegan sharks?
I’d say a better metaphor would be a Dolphin among sharks. Then again Dolphins are total badasses who bop sharks with their noses cuz they know sharks hate that shit.
They’re also more rapey than Ryan.
It sounded earlier like Joyce was okay with Becky coming with as long as Becky was okay with it.
She already told Joyce she was coming over. This isn’t a surprise thing.
She, in fact, offered to, in order to support Joyce.
But why does Joyce look so surprised in the last panel today?
I think Becky offered to come and support Joyce, but they left it ambiguous, and foolishly didn’t plan how to tell the Browns she might drop in.
I think it’s likely that Joyce just pushed it out of her consciousness as one more thing to worry about – she doesn’t want drama on Becky – and is now worrying for her.
I don’t think Becky coming along is in any way a bad thing for Joyce, or going to make her life harder. A friendly presence is incredibly important
Oh my god look at that lesbian ruining her straight friend’s day with all her inconvenient existing!
Dorothy isn’t involving herself in this conversation. Neither is Walky, or Sarah, or anyone else Joyce knows, because they all know that this is a delicate situation and talking to her dad might make things worse for Joyce. So either Becky is less socially adept than Walky, or she has decided that she’s perfectly willing to hurt Joyce as long as she gets to make sure a homophobe knows she exists. And while that is her right, it’s also a shitty thing for a friend to do.
…pretty sure Becky’s best friend since time immemorial’s dad knows she exists. What, is she just supposed to stop interacting with people she’s known since she was kneehigh to a grasshopper just cause she’s gay now?
Yes. Gay people should hide in the background feeling sorry for themselves until they can be used by their straight acquaintances to make a big show about how said acquaintance supporting them has made them grow as a person. And then they retire immediately back into the background having fulfilled their narrative role.
So it is written in the Sitcom Tome. So shall it be done.
I now have the mental image of a priest walking around a place of worship with an elaborately dressed scroll labeled “Holy Scripts of Sitcom” while people touch the thing with their “TV Prayer Books”. It’s kinda of absurd, and now the image won’t get out of my head.
Like that one thing with the Torah except the cover has TVs all over it.
Everyone else is hiding in the background. Yes, in a perfect world, Becky wouldn’t have to hide. This isn’t a perfect world, and Joyce is about to go through hell for Becky again. The least Becky could do is show the basic social restraint of Walky and not make things any harder on Joyce than they already are.
Please think about what you are saying to the real life Beckys of the world with that comment.
This is not about Becky being out on the street, at work, or in class. Joyce is about to go off and defend Becky and their continuing friendship to her parents, who have significant power over her life and her emotional well-being. That’s a really tough conversation to have, and if Joyce screws up she’s homeless. Becky came downstairs, went into the lobby, and inserted herself into that conversation. That’s not being out, that’s actively looking for an argument and not caring if Joyce gets caught in the crossfire.
It is not. It is a girl with nothing left having a regular every day conversation with the last vestiges of “family” she’s got left.
I think the real issue, more than Becky being lesbian (which really shouldn’t be an issue, cmon world get yo shit together) is that right now she represents a lot of instability in regards to Joyce. I’m not saying she should have to hide herself, she is Joyce’s best friend after all. That being said, I have seen when my very being with my friend escalates the situation, even with a family I was once close with.
Yes, she has every right to speak to Joyce’s father but it is also true that maybe she could have waited a little longer. Felt out the situation a bit more and worked out how to play it.
I’ve personally always had trouble understanding how to act around others, which mask i should wear because no one has ever seen me be myself and not alienated me. As a result, I always go into a conversation the same way I was taught to fight, tentative moves to see what is happening before I wade deeper.
Becky is a lot braver than me but if I am understanding the situation right maybe Joyce had an actual plan about how she was going to handle all of what has been happening. It is her father and surely she knows how to deal with him better than Becky? Maybe Joyce had no plan but wasn’t it worth waiting a little to see?
Becky definitely needs to be a part of this but maybe this was a time she should have trusted in her friend’s ability to bring her into the conversation in a way that gave the both of them a good place to fight from if they had to fight.
The flip side is Becky is feeling hurt and maybe a little lost? These are her best friends parents and now the closest to parents she has, it might be unreasonable to expect her to not come say hi to them. Mr Brown was presumably a kind man to her growing up, why would she expect to have to fight him in the first place? We expect her to handle the situation with absolute foresight and perfection when in reality Becky is dealing with it in the way she thinks is best. It may even be the best way to deal with it, time will tell.
I hope I have explained myself clearly but I don’t often comment!
No, it’s really not.
She’s not Dorothy, the atheist friend. She’s Becky, childhood friend. Hank and Carol aren’t just “Joyce’s parents”, they’re people she’s known for years. They’re the closest thing she has to remaining family. And they know that their daughter and her have been through thick and thin together.
This is not a stranger she has met once under ill circumstances once. These are people she’s probably spent dinner with and slept over at their house on many occasions. She knows Hank, personally, has established relationships with him and under normal circumstances would have no reason to assume that this behavior would be taking poorly. After all, she’s acting normally, breaking the ice, making things light and small-talk filled. The only “tension” she’s adding is her existence and well… her existence was going to come up this weekend. It would have to given recent events.
Also, it’s still not clear whether or not Becky is actually supposed to be coming along here rather than just lending moral support, so yeah, approaching and saying hi would be very important at this moment.
Yep. Becky probably considers the Brown household her second home, just judging from how Joyce was talking about Toedad. She quite possibly calls Joyce’s parents Mom and Dad. There is a History there that I’m not sure how people are overlooking.
When it’s considered from that perspective, it’s possible that this isn’t even something she’s doing on purpose at all; she’s forgetting that she can’t just jump into the conversation here the way she normally would. Or, her instinctive comfort with Joyce’s dad is overriding the more rational concerns, and she thinks it will be fine anyway.
@Shiro – only thing I can think of is that they’re not familiar with how small-town best-friendships work among children. My best friend growing up and I spent almost as much time at the other’s house as we did at our own. It can safely be assumed, from how Joyce spoke about Toedad, that they had the same level of familiarity with each other’s parents.
Hank and Carol aren’t strangers or near-strangers to Becky, they’re practically a second set of parents.
These are not normal circumstances, though, and Becky would have to be a moron not to recognize how badly this situation could go. Joyce might get pulled out of college and end up on the street after this weekend, and Becky just made that more likely. That’s not the action of someone who actually cares about Joyce.
Gosh, pulled out of college and possibly ending up on the street you say?
*cough* look at Becky’s literal current circumstance *cough*
Did she make it more likely? How?
By talking to Hank? By reminding him that she exists?
I don’t see it.
I think the logic goes:
– Becky inserts herself into the conversation
– Father makes some sort of homophobic comments
– Joyce defends Becky against her dad
– Entire weekend is basically a big fight, with her parents concentrating more on Becky’s homosexuality than a gun-toting nutbag
– Parents stop funding Joyce’s tuition
– Because Joyce has to withdraw from college, Becky might too (although perhaps she might have enough support from Dina, Dorothy and others to continue sticking around.)
What might be preferred is:
– Joyce talks with her dad, feels out the situation (to see if her parents are OK with her still being friends with Becky)
– If she finds out that her parents are raging homophobes she can avoid breaching the subject altogether, or at least put it in a context that might result in sympathy. (i.e. the first thing that she could mention was the danger of toedad waving a gun, rather than Becky’s homosexuality. Plant the seeds in their mind that the danger is not “the gays” but the people trying to harm “the gays”)
Maybe they should bring Dina and thereby derail all of the “evil gays” argument into an “evil evolution/Deep Time believers” argument.
She already told them on the phone that Becky likes girls and that she’s supporting Becky no matter what. It’s why Ross was there. It’s why Becky was there.
There is no way to avoid the subject. It can still be deflected to the actual danger, but we’ve already seen her mother take that back to “But you understand why…”
Oh yes, I’m sure the issue of Becky was definitely going to come up on the weekend.
Some people are just suggesting Joyce might wanted things to be brought up on her own terms (i.e. emphasizing the gun-toting lunatic) rather than have things brought up on other people’s terms.
I dont remember seeing talk of Becky ever going with Joyce (and if I’m wrong I’m wrong, I literally do not remember it) but even if she is, I’d say that’s a bad call in and of itself. Yes, Beck has the right to do whatever she wants, orientation notwithstanding, however she doesn’t live in a vacuum.
Right now her friend is suffering. It’s obvious and she can tell Joyce is distressed. Joyce wants and needs this weekend to go well, so she can still feel like she has a family who can support and love her, since it’s clear that her friends simply aren’t cutting it.
Becky being there, either to just say hi or to actually go home with her only serves to take that away from Joyce. Moreover, this action ACTIVELY HURTS BECKY, since right now she’s still living on campus in secret. Joyce’s parents are almost as bad as Becky’s, so when it does inevitably come up that Becky is gay, and hiding in Joyce’s dad’s old college campus for refuge, there are going to be some issues. At best he scolds Joyce for supporting Becky, at worst he calls the school and outs her.
Becky is accidentally forcing Joyce to make a choice at this specific point: defend Becky and risk the nice weekend/relationship with her dad that she really needs, or throw Becky under the bus and have everyone walk away sad. Joyce isn’t in the mental position to make the correct choice (defend Becky) so this can only end badly.
This is similar to the time Becky loudly announced that she was there, and gay, while living in Joyce’s room, thus putting them both at risk.
Becky isn’t a bad person, and has the right to exist and go wherever she pleases, but a little tact goes a long way, especially when you can lose your home at any moment, AND your friend that you’re stressing is stilly getting over some severe trauma and is in need of familial support.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/elsewhere/
She’s probably coming.
For the rest of it… well, as someone who’s repeatedly been told I need to hide myself away and go in the closet and not be, you know, quite as visible because of how I am, I really can’t agree less with any of it. I’m really sorry, but I just can’t.
I have more to say, but it’s clear that this means a lot to you and there’s no point in making a stranger’s day worse just because I disagree their interpretation of a character. I’m sorry if this has caused you any distress.
Thank you.
Of important note there:
Neither Joyce nor Becky there is concerned with themselves – Becky is offering to go to be Joyce’s support, Joyce is voicing concern that that will make things worse for Becky.
Yeah, I think they could both do to be more selfish, to check in with their own needs and express them to each other. LIke Becky might say “I’d love to come, because I want to support you, and because this is as close as I can get to having my family.” And Joyce might say, “But, this weekend really needs to stabilize me, and I’m already terrified of how they’ll react to my changed views — can we please wait til next time, they’ll still be your family.” But they’re both way too selfless to hash that out.
Leorale- Yeah, I’ve fallen into that trap with partners before where we’re both so focused on trying to do right by the other and fully support them that we forget to care for ourselves or even vocalize our needs and then things go wrong because of it.
It could be going the other, more obvious, way too. “I’m scared to go, but I want to go to support you.” and “I really want you there, but I don’t want to put you through it”.
Which is essentially what they said.
I’m not sure I really understand either side of this whole argument. One side seems to be “I HATE BECKY AND EVERYTHING ABOUT HER GO DIE IN A FIRE AAAGGGHHH” and the other seems to be “if someone is not heteronormative or whatever else is mainstream then they are perfect and have no flaws.”
I think people should be allowed to dislike Becky for reasons other than her being a lesbian. I mean, the only times I can stand Becky is when she’s with Dina (those two together are absolutely adorable I want them to be together forever). But all of her interactions with everyone else just rub me the wrong way. It’s not cause she’s gay though. It’s cause she’s obnoxious. And yeah sure she’s been through a lot but I don’t think that’s an excuse to be obnoxious. For instance, this guy I used to know had cancer and beat it but then decided that this gave him the right to just go around putting everyone else around him down and treating them all like crap. I dunno if he was like that before the cancer but he seemed to think it was justified. And we haven’t seen much of Becky before she escaped Anderson and Toedad to get to IU but she was probably like this before all of that.
No, no one deserves to have happen to them what Toedad did to her and if I had been there I wouldn’t’ve stopped with a punch like Joyce did. I would’ve beat him to death because, whether I like Becky or not, none of that is OK. The “therapy camp” or whatever it’s called, bringing a gun to school and chasing her down, threatening her and a bunch of other kids with a gun, none of that is OK no matter how obnoxious she is. But I still find her obnoxious most of the time.
Plus here, Joyce is going to be in a world of trouble when she gets home because she has a gay friend. Most of us don’t think being gay is bad but her parents think it’s a sin that will send you to hell, so to THEM it’s like as if Joyce is friends with a murderer cause murder is also a sin. Obviously it’s not clear whether they decided one way or the other whether Becky was coming home with Joyce or not but judging from their faces in the last panel if they did 100% decide that Becky was going nobody bothered to tell the Browns. And your equivalent-to-a-murderer (again, in her parents’s eyes, not mine) friend just interjecting themselves into a convo is inviting a lot of crap onto Joyce. (Note: I don’t like Joyce either, so I’m not sitting here defending her cause she’s the straight white chick. I’m just saying this random interjection into a convo with someone who equates your lifestyle with being a murderer is probably not the best thing to do, tact-wise. If you murder someone it doesn’t matter how long you’ve known your friend’s parents. They’re still not gonna want you around).
Also I can’t sleep so I hope this makes sense. Basically, Becky didn’t deserve the bad stuff that happened to her and I wish it hadn’t happened to her and Toedad needs to burst into flames but that doesn’t mean she can be obnoxious or invite problems for someone else. She could’ve at least waited for Joyce to call her over or something.
Oh gods I wrote a textbook I’m sorry I should not post when I can’t sleep ^.__.^;;
Where did anyone say Becky was perfect with no flaws? I see people saying that Becky isn’t the worst for wanting to talk to someone she’s known all her life. I can’t see anywhere way someone says Becky is perfect.
I love Becky’s flaws. Her jealousy of Dorothy, her habit of repressing all her hurt. They’re very humanizing and flesh out her character.
I’m just having a really hard time seeing how “talking to Joyce’s dad in a perfectly normal way” qualifies as a flaw and frankly it’s a bit offputting and triggering given my particular set of life experiences.
Becky, Carla, Jocelyne, etc… all have flaws. I just wish more times in these sorts of threads, people actually responded to the flaws they do have rather than the flaws they make up or project on to them in order to justify victim blaming.
I think you (Dragon_Nataku) misread the argument. Yes, one side is basically arguing that Becky is evil–saying she is inconsiderate and selfish and a horrible friend. But no one on the other side says she has no flaws. They’re the same people upthread who acknowledge that she’s loud and has impulse control problems.
It’s just that the argument that she is horrible is just so baseless. It seems to only be because this one action has a chance of being bad for Joyce. And just a chance, since there are many more ways it can go.
They disregard every other time that Becky has been completely selfless, and they disregard the flaw she’s had since the beginning–her impulsive behavior.
And, what’s worse, Becky isn’t doing anything wrong. She’s talking to someone she knows. She was not asked not to get involved, and it’s possible she thinks she is going back with them. They’re mad at her for doing something no one has given her any reason to not do.
So it reads a whole lot like those people who think that just being there and being gay is wrong. Sure, gya people have a right to do be out in public, but it’s still selfish and wrong. Ignore everything else about these people, just don’t make
Joyceme feel a little bad.This weekend isn’t going to go well and be a nice relaxing, supportive experience for Joyce no matter what Becky does. Since that phone call to her mom, Joyce knows it well.
Her parents might be thinking that she needs support, but they’re also thinking they need to get her back on the right path and away from all these secular influences, like atheists and Becky, so that she can make proper Godly choices. Like rejecting Becky.
No matter what Becky did here, whether she hid or whether she talks to Hank, this visit was always going to be a major stressor for Joyce. She was going to be on the defensive the whole time, trying to justify her choices to her parents and probably being pushed to question them herself.
If Becky comes along, that might bring the conflict a little more to the fore, but it also gives Joyce an ally and a reminder what she’s fighting for. Likely Becky being there would only shorten that awkward period where they’re all carefully being nice and avoiding the elephant in the room.
As I said before, Becky actually being there reminds them that this isn’t an abstract problem. They’re not rejecting the concept of lesbians, they’re rejecting Becky, who they’ve known and cared for all her life. And that is the single biggest thing that could sway them. In recent years it’s been by far the biggest factor in changing people’s attitudes towards gays – knowing them personally.
Yeah. And it means that there’s actually a better chance of it going well than if she doesn’t make herself present or come along.
Without her, it’s an abstract problem of how could you let Satan into your home. With her, it humanizes it, makes it clear that this is about Becky, the human being, with fears and emotions and a long storied history with their daughter. Even if they can’t look past their homophobia, maybe they’ll be able to understand why their daughter “defied” them.
She loves Joyce to the point of recklessness.
I’m not sure thats such an awful thing, do you? We’ve all done things in tbe name of love which are completely unselfish. Or at least we should.
Agreed, shitty thing to do.
On the bright side this is Joyce’s dad. From past appearances, it’s her mom who’s the more… vocal one on objections who whom Joyce associates with. Dad was kinda just there. So this may not be as bad as it could be. (*Knock-wood*)
I’m guessing the way the prior visit went may be why it’s only dad picking her up for the weekend.
It is not a shitty thing to do. It is not shitty to exist and to be friendly with a long close friend’s parents, especially when you’re probably coming along.
Honestly, we have very little to go on as far as him being less vocal than his wife is concerned. We know he backed down because he agreed with Joyce’s interpretation of a particular Bible quote. That doesn’t imply by default that he will be as agreeable in regards to Becky and what the Bible says about her.
“Shitty” is going waaaaay to far.
As far as I can tell the very worst this could be called is a bit incautious. But that’s Becky in a nutshell. She’s Roosevelt’s “Man in the arena”. Things could go wrong here, certainly, but… well, let’s go over the alternative.
In her situation I would have been more cautious, but I’d never know that was the right choice. I would probably hide, not go on the trip “home” and forever wonder how things would have gone had I shown up. I probably would have told myself that everyone would be better off if I just quietly slipped away and let them get on without me, just in case. And I could never have been proven wrong, exactly. That way lies an ingrown life, and that’s what calling her behavior shitty inadvertently _demands_.
If Joyce wanted a Becky-free visit with her dad the onus is on Joyce to tell Becky that. Since we haven’t seen any such exchange we can’t expect Becky to act as if that exchange had taken place.
I wouldn’t call it shitty (malicious), just dumb and impulsive. If Joyce’s dad had a fundie freakout, Joyce would be forced to instantly choose between friend or family, not easy even when one is in the wrong.
How dare she!
Has she no honor? I ask you again, has she no honor, sir?
Wait, I though it was the bisexuals who were supposed to be invisible.
Well yeah. Lesbians are visible. Thus, they are rude and ruining everything by existing all visibly around people whereas bisexuals are allowed to stand near people so long as they don’t move objects (cause this would clearly make people worried that the location was haunted).
I actually like to stand near people quietly and then move something nearby, just to watch them jump and say, “I just saw that move … Do you think this place has bisexuals?”
+1 to you fellow commentor
That reminds me of something that happened in DC comics. One time, in the gordian knot that is the continuity of Legion of Super Heroes, they introduced the first bisexual member of the team.
It was, of course, Invisible Kid.
No, the first bi character was Dawnstar (revealed as such about…7 years ago, IIRC). Post-Zero Hour IK was gay.
(Arguably, there was Element Lad, but the intent was for him to be gay and just seeing through the ‘female’ mask when Sean was pretending to be Shvaughn, because in the 30th century, you should still assume homophobia, apparently.)
Jim Shooter, of all people, was severely hampered by editorial over that.
He initially wanted Ferro Lad to be black, but having a black dude in a series about a utopian future where mankind has peacefully resolved all conflict and joined a welcoming intergalactic civilization was apparently too much.
Ah, comics.
Jim Shooter is also the guy who insisted to John Byrne (again; of all people) that Northstar wasn’t allowed to be a gay in the 1980’s, so instead they revealed he was part elf.
Northstar wasn’t allowed to be a gay guy in the 1980’s*
No, you’re thinking of people with mental disorders that aren’t immediately apparent.
(By which I mean Bipolar, mild Autistm-spectrum, etc. Nothing to do with sexuality or gender identity.)
Erm, for one: Autism is a developmental disorder. Not a “mental disorder,” which is actually quite derogatory.
For two: As a bisexual autistic, I can pretty much guarantee you that bi people are pretty damned invisible to public consciousness.
I mean, it’s incorrect so definitely good to call it out/clear it up, but…derogatory? Ouch.
Jesus Christ no it’s not derogatory what’s wrong with you 0.0
(and i don’t fucking mean autism, i’m autistic too and am capable of respecting bipolar, borderline and shizophrenic people as people jesus christ what the fuck seriously)
(also, ace here, joining the invisibility club)
Maybe because “mental disorder” is outdated terminology that along most mental illness communities I know and deal with, the opinion is that it should go the way of the R-word?
(i.e., though I didn’t phrase it well, I was also opposed to referring to bipolar disorder as a “mental disorder”. Apologies for bad phrasing which I can see now had exactly the opposite of my intended implication.
Also apologies for wording which played into societal ableism. I am not opposed to being grouped in with people with bipolar. I am opposed to the use of outdated and othering phrasing.
The first rule of Invisibility Club is that you do talk about Invisibility Club, because how else would ever find each other?
No. It’s the scientific term. The developmental problems with autism happen in the brain, making it a mental disorder. It’s listed in the DSM-5: the “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition.”
Now, if this were innocuous, I’d let it slide and let you think what you want. But trying to make a normal term offensive actually causes harm to our cause. Yes, our cause–I have a mental disorder, too.
Saying “mental disorder” is derogatory, when it is factually not used in that manner, only makes us look like we are not in touch with reality, and thus makes our real concerns seem like they could be “crazy,” too.
…did you go to every comment chain?
Anyway. I don’t think this is a matter of whether she has a right To do whatever she pleases (she does). It’s more general courtesy, because regardless of what it’s about, you should think about how people feel.
I mean, one of my good friends parents’ are extremely right wing scientologists, and he’s transgender and bi. That doesn’t mean I can pop in front of their house and make jokes the day after their dog died, even if I do exactly that normally. It doesn’t matter that I’m gay – I might have a right (and even a strong urge) to resort to humor, and have a right to be there, but that doesn’t make it any less insensitive.
It’s obviously not exactly the same here, but I think the same principle applies. I’m don’t think Becky’s doing anything terrible, and if Joyce and her dad are reasonable they’ll roll with it (understanding that Becky’s been through a lot, even more than Joyce, and it’s a way of dealing with it). But that doesn’t make it ideal.
Oh noes, I’m awful, reading down a comment thread and commenting. Bad Cerberus, no triple biscuit.
Also, the “dog dying” here is her, Becky, being targeted by her dad, involving a gun being pulled on her personally, leading to her personally being kidnapped and being involved in a car crash.
Becky was rather central to this whole “dog dying” thing that has Joyce’s parents wanting to show their support to Joyce. And she’s not entering in with her sushi joke while talking heavy stuff. They’re making small talk. Becky entered in with small talk of her own.
I’m really not getting how so so many people are viewing this as nefarious or injurious to Joyce other than by blaming her for societal homophobia.
I don’t think anyone’s saying it’s nefarious, per se. Becky’s trying to help things in her own Becky way, it’s just, judging by the expressions on the Browns’ faces, it’s kinda startling them right now. I wouldn’t call it bad, but I wouldn’t say Becky’s being perfect either. Especially if it ends up escalating much.
Yes, you wouldn’t barge into their house. But are you saying you wouldn’t talk to them in public? Because that’s what’s going on here. Becky is talking to her two friends in public. They weren’t grieving over their “dog dying”, or anything. And she didn’t bring the subject up.
You mention ideals, but what is ideal for Becky? That she just hide herself from her best friend and someone who has been a father figure in her life?
I’m not saying everything is ideal for Joyce. And I can see an argument that Becky is being a bit of her impulsive self and hasn’t thought things through.
But the idea that she’s wrong for talking to them just doesn’t work.
Wow.
About the only thing Becky’s really guilty of here is lack of foresight. If Joyce’s dad decides to be a dick about her being there, that’s HIS fault, not hers.
“Don’t belong???”
Becky practically grew up in the Brown household. She and Joyce were as close as sisters you can be. She just lost her family. This man is the closest thing she has to a father.
I know. This is the scrappy remains of anything she could remotely call a family here. People are really not paying attention to what exactly they’re accidentally saying here.
Not so much replying to you as much as replying to this thread in general
You guys… Hank is NOT Ross. Mr. Brown is NOT Toedad. Papa Joyce is NOT Papa Becky, although he MIGHT AS WELL BE. Hank has had another child rebel to him (Joshua IIRC). I find it doubtful that he’s never of LGBT issues, having an LGBT daughter (Jocelyne). Regardless of dogma, he can’t be as ignorant as Toedad, as he’s had to deal with difference.
Becky’s been raised with him. She’s family to him, the Browns are family to her. They were probably her introduction to a next degree of freedom -after all, Toedad didn’t even let Becky have a cell phone, so going to Joyce’s was probably her chance to “get wild” and watch Psalmy until midnight or whatever. Her haircut is the only thing that screams lesbian about her, and that’s only a stereotype. He’s heard of her lesbianism, but he probably also heard of MacIntyre going on a shooting spree, causing a traffic incident, and hurting his youngest daughter. There are too many stakes. It’s not as black and white as with Toedad. And Becky might or might not know this consciously, but she most definitely can feel the conflict inconsciously. But historically he’s been part of one of her safe spaces, an a space that she has not yet established as unsafe.
Joyce already left her parents a voice mail lighting fire to that bridge. At this point, the stakes are already lower, as they don’t want that and a week later they might have thought over bargains and let the fire de out a little.
God I’m bad at meta and analysis, like I’m the kind of dude who forgets half of the strips, doesn’t associate implicit shit, and EVEN I can tell Becky’s not being a selfish bull in a china shop here. Careless? Definitely! But does she even have a choice being not?
TL;DR: Give the poor man a chance, and don’t jump at Becky’s throat for doing so.
Actually, Jocylene is closeted to her family. There’s a reason she still presents as male. Remember when she was talking with Ethan about how she’s the favorite “precisely because” they know the least about her? http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/heated/
Now I am picturing Marlon Perkins talking about the natural habitat of the Wild Becky.
“Mutual Of Omaha is people you can count on when the going’s rough!”
Hey he has hopes for her growth in college! That’s not so dire!
“Say, where’s Perry?”
Do-Be-Do-Bah, Do-Be-Do-Bah…
Dammit. I meant Do-Be-Do-Be-Do-Bah, Do-Be-Do-Be-Do-Bah…
Great, now i want Becky to have her own little lair entrance sequence.
well i mean SOMETHING had to happen
Yes, but did it have to happen now? They were just starting to get father-daughtery. We were in the clear, at least we would’ve been till she got home and things innevitably heated up.
You mean until they were home and Joyce was completely isolated from any support? I’m hoping this is Becky making it clear she’s going to be tagging along because the last thing I want is Joyce being stuck dealing with this stuff with her parents alone.
Same. I was worried about where Becky was and if she was indeed going to leave Joyce alone.
Sorry, what was that? I was calling the fan an ambulence after it got hit.
Considering what just hit it, the fan janitor might be a better bet.
Someone call the fanitor!
this is why we can’t have nice things. cuz we’re beautiful and the world is ugly.
…or something, i never read atlas shrugged
Good for you. The book is heavily overrated, and Ayn Rand has this weird policy of making all of her protagonists legitimately sociopathic.
That is a nice quote. It does not fit my second hand understanding of atlas shrugged. It is nice
It’s not actually from Atlus Shrugged. It’s from It’s Walky.
I feel I should explain that my brain played a long game of broken telephone to pick that quote, and as an afterthought I tacked on the bit about Atlas Shrugged. I was sleepy and I thought “hey, loving yourself and finding the world inadequate is a very Ayn Rand idea, isn’t it?” I did not mean to imply anything about Willis’ philosophical motivations for writing that line. I’m sure he’s all about friendship and teamwork and frequently donates to disabled puppies
The one constant of the Dumbiverse:
Becky cannot be contained.
Mary: Immovable Object
Carla: Hoppable Force
Becky: Uncontainable Spirit
Part of me wants a scene with all three of these characters interacting now, but I also feel like this would be a Very Bad Thing.
I dunno.
I kind of feel like Becky is Mary’s Kryptonite.
Everything is probably Mary’s Kryptonite.
Plot twist: Bongos are Mary’s Kryptonite.
Becky is joy.
Joy? The unknown Brown twin sister stolen from the hospital and never mentioned because the memory was just too painful?
Damnit Becky…
“Joyce, why are you keeping this a secret. I’m not raising you to do disgusting unchristian things like…Eating Sushi. If jesus wanted us to eat raw fish he wouldn’t have invented the Grill. Oh, hi Becky”
Jesus invented the grill? I thought George Foreman did.
Have you ever seen Jesus and George Foreman in the same room at the same time? I haven’t.
Of course we have. Jesus fought Foreman for the heavyweight title back in 96. If I recall correctly, Foreman won by KO, and the entire earth was destroyed.
“and becky, if jesus meant for you to eat raw fish…”
you know what, i’m gonna stop myself there
We all know Becky prefer’s tacos anyway.
If Jesus wanted us to eat fish, he would have handed them out when giving some kind of sermon.
But it would have to have a huge turnout. 5000 should be enough.
The bible doesn’t discuss it but Jesus also gave everyone a personal Grill, and told them that they must eat their fish prepared in this fashion, or not at all. He then got in his hot rod with a couple of his groupies and zoomed off to create nutella and compose Bohemian Rapsody.
Aww…Becky wants a family…
Yeah, that’s the heartbreaking part in all this. Becky has no family left. This is the closest thing still remaining.
And she so desperately wants to connect to it, but Hank and Carol will probably never see Becky, the brash little kid who’s been their daughter’s friend since forever. They’ll just see her sexuality and what their religion has called on them to view that as.
And the worst part is if she’s rejected here she won’t actually show it. She’ll bury it until she’s alone. And she’ll cry there where no one can see her. Lamenting a family ripped from her life. Simply because she is.
I dunno, I can see Hank coming around to a more sympathetic point of view.
Not Carol though.
It’s adorable and heartbreaking how Becky peaks around the corner to make up her mind if this dad is worth betting on.
“OK, I can’t see a gun. he actually smiles, he hasn’t started to scream at Joyce yet… OK, I’ll risk it.”
Yeah. She’s so optimistic. This world hasn’t broken her… yet.
I don’t think the world will ever actually break Becky she’s too powerful. Unless Joyce betrays her, that would probably destroy her.
The risk for that is pretty slim. She didn’t do it for God at least.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/pit/
i hope becky grows up to become an awesome lesbian grandma
I was such a picky eater like Joyce, too, before college. Turns out that might have been an autistic symptom.
Everything is an autistic symptom.
Well, this is will get interesting.
Becky always knows how to get Joyce to make certain faces.
Except the O-face.
I suspect she knows how.
She has the means and the motive, just not the opportunity.
So, is Becky the best character in this comic or what?
What?
I don’t think she even breaks my top 5
Yotomoe’s Top 5:
1. Sierra
2. Sierra
3. Sierra
4. Sierra
5. Sierra
It’s been a while. Sierra’s in my top 5 but she’s probably not #1Becky is the best and I don’t know what all those haters are on about.
You spell “Dorothy” funny. 😛
You spelled ‘Dina’ funny.
You spelled ‘Malaya’ funny.
You spelled ‘Mike’ funny.
You all spelled “My Original Character” wrong.
NONE OF YOU FUCKERS CAN SPEEEEEEEELL! D=
She uses awkward comment. It’s super effective! Dad is stunned and unable to parry!
Awkward Comment doesn’t sound like if would be a damging move. Probably a status move that causes Confusion.
I’m triple confused because it seems to be combining RPG elements.
It could be a damaging move with a flinch chance…
Becky no why
No seriously why how could this go any direction but south
She’s trying to connect with the only “family” she’s got left and lighten the mood.
Because they’re heading for La Porte, which, Wikipedia tells me, is north of Bloomington. *deadpan*
Becky.
Becky, I know you love your snark and I adore you for your ability to stay upbeat no matter what, I really do, but.
There is a time and a place.
This is neither.
But she didn’t even try to equip her bike indoors!
OAK: Red.
Red, I know you love your bicycle and I adore you for your ability to stay upbeat no matter what, I really do, but.
There is a time and a place.
This is neither.
Geez, Professor Oak, no need to be so dramatic. No bicycles in the Pokécemetery.
OAK: BECKY! This isn’t the time to use that!
I almost thought that text above the mailboxes in the final panel was a bunch of sound effects.
Like everyone’s mail was going “clank.”
Is it not? What’s happening there, I’m confused
Dorm wing names. So you know where to look for your mailbox.
Beck, Clark, etc.
“Clark” is written on the wall, because they’re mailboxes for the Clark wing.
And now I remember why I dislike Becky. Yes, her life is unfair and sucky, but Joyce is being incredibly nice to her(as a friend should), the least Becky could do is not make Joyce’s already-stressful weekend even worse.
She already told Joyce she was coming over. This isn’t a surprise thing.
Did she?
*checks*
LINK
It was almost two months ago, so I guess I forgot. Although the comic kind of left it up in the air what the decision was and whether or not Joyce actually wants Becky there for family weekend.
Nice link-hunting. Jeez, I totally forgot too.
Knowing that it actually was the plan (or at least a plan) for Becky to come with, it seems like she probably just popped up so awkwardly because this situation is fucked up, she had no ideas for how to enter the conversation naturally, and so she defaulted to her usual “full steam ahead!” coping strategy.
Joyce’s cracking is inevitable. Becky’s arguably doing everyone a favor by trying to get it out of the way early.
Joyce’s worldview is already cracking. Becky’s just guaranteeing that Joyce won’t get a chance to peacefully talk with her father and try to get him to back her before the inevitable explosion with her mom. Not to mention that Joyce had a gun pointed at her earlier this week and might reasonably need a non-stressful interaction with her dad before she snaps. This is the equivalent of Mike’s “Hail Satan” but from a character Willis seems convinced we should like.
I dunno, the commenters seemed to enjoy the “HAIL SATAN” a hell of a lot more than this. I wonder why that is.
Yesss, this.
Mike deliberately antagonizes Carol in a way most likely to put multiple people in danger: Comment thread loves it, jokes about how much Mike uses his power of assholitude to make everyone better people.
Becky has normal small talk with people she’s known her entire life and may be going home with this weekend: How dare you Becky, have you no respect for how hard you’re making Joyce’s life?
And that is very illustrative. All the more illustrative for all the people slagging on Carla in the last arc and Carla’s comment on the unreasonable expectation to be “perfect” if you’re marginalized.
I’m trying to figure out if the issue is that these commentors are homophobes/transphobes or that they’re misogynists. Or whether it’s some intersection of all three. None of the dudes have received this treatment, but then again, they’ve all been “straight” as far as heteronormativity tells us.
Oddly, Danny got far more popular around the same time his bisexuality was revealed. I’m not at all sure there’s a direct connection.
All these issues and the intersectionality among them are complicated. And mostly happening subconsciously, which makes it even harder to tease out.
There are some readers who are only interested in Danny because he’s bi, yeah. I mean, there have been genuine requests for him to cheat, disappointment that he won’t, and calls that he get over being monogamous because it gets in the way of him fucking a dude like he is actually required to by law. It’s all a big pile of gross as fuck sexual objectifying filtered through the lens of it being acceptable as long as its in the name of Danny being the right kind of queer man.
At the same time, Danny is pretty much the only bi dude in popular webcomics, and the only bi dude in any fiction I consume. I can’t understate how important it is that Danny just being bi, and seeing him deal with that in the context of what it means to him and in his relationship with Amber, is for bisexual male readers. We don’t get representation, period, and when we do it’s always, always about us being magical sex pixies who just want to stick our dicks into any hole that wriggles, fundamentally incapable of fidelity, or about how our relationships with women don’t count, because as queer men, we need to be queer in a visibly queer way for us to actually count to more privileged straight and gay folks, because to suggest otherwise means we’re faking having valid attractions to both genders; that we’re just putting on a little gay hat for a night on the town before going back into our straight hiding holes.
To be fair, I don’t know if that’s so much because of Danny’s bisexuality as because Danny’s only other notable defining characteristic up until that point was his haplessness.
Danny IS pretty hapless. He could use some haps. Let’s get some haps all up in here.
Yes, how dare she exist in the presence of a bigot doesn’t she know it’s her responsibility to disappear lest she FORCE him to be an awful human bieng?
This is probably the first time Hank has seen Becky with her new haircut. Maybe he’ll experience a 404 error and by the time he reboots he’ll have forgotten what he was going to say.
As we from the future have discovered, you are 100% correct!
Whoa, what’s up, Becky? What are you doing?
I… don’t think she’s here to antagonize the Browns? After staring down the barrel of homelessness and poverty I don’t think she’d try to do anything that might force Joyce to confront her parents, even though it would be understandable that Becky would be angry and spiteful towards them too after everything that’s happened.
Is this… an attempt to protect Joyce somehow…? Just wanting to know for herself what’s going on…? I really have no clue where this is going.
Actually, could this be an attempt to hitch a ride back to their hometown to pick up her legal docs? She was recently thinking about jobs so she might be after her social security card and birth certificate. Maybe she could even guilt some adults in their hometown into helping out. But why the hell would she do that without getting Joyce on board first?
Joyce knows that Becky was considering coming along for the ride. They discussed it a while back.
I just don’t think she expected this sudden ‘HI MISTER BROWN’ from Becky quite this soon into the visit.
Thanks for the reminder. I totally forgot about that until winter posted a link a couple threads up.
My guess now is that there’s nothing to Becky’s awkward entrance than her just not knowing what the hell else to do. There’s not really any way that this could be not awkward anyway.
It wasn’t just Becky coming along they were discussing, it was Becky coming along to act as moral support for Joyce. Which Joyce hesitated to accept because it might cause stress for Becky.
I thought she was doing that thing girls are raised to do, where she’d actually rather Becky didn’t come along, but she can’t say so.
Wait what? That’s a thing?
She came right out and said ‘no’ to Dorothy. (Although, honestly, that might have been for Dorothy’s comfort. She just never said why.) It’s doubtful she wouldn’t to the best friend she’s always been open with before.
maybe she just wanted to say hi?
this is a relatively safe place to test the waters.
everyone: becky no
becky: BECKY YES
God damn it Willis……. Just in case this goes south which I hoped it doesn’t.
This is DoA, of course it’ll inevitably go south.
The south shall rise again.
HEIL!
(Yes, I understand that the South isn’t Nazi Germany. I’m also aware that the South probably isn’t even normal German. Finally, we should all be aware that, despite the association with sieg heil, saying ‘Heil’ still really only amounts to ‘Hail’ or ‘Hear, hear’ in German. Shoosh.)
Actually, “Hear, hear” is “Hört, hört” in German. As you said, “Hail” is the proper translation for “Heil”.
And “sieg” is “victory”. And South Germany is Bavaria. What?
Yes, in Bavaria, where the trees are made of wood!
Repeatedly it seems.
“Damn you Willis” is always applicable at any time all the time always.
At any point in time, theres a scene in one of his 5 comics that warrants it.
Them all eating sushi was only last weekend. :[
I suddenly, really, really, don’t like Becky. Dammit Becky.
Why? What has she done here that wouldn’t be completely acceptable if she was straight? Say hi to her best friend’s father who she’s know pretty much her entire life? Make a joke about said best friend’s pickiness? Literally the only thing she’s doing here that could be “objectionable” is be gay.
In fairness, it wouldn’t really matter why Joyce and her parents were going to have a big fight about Becky. It’s just happens that being gay is the reason they’re going to.
Mind you, I still don’t have a problem with Becky doing it and I hope she comes along.
Except that is not the case. Becky has been at the center of an extremely disruptive event. Joyce needs this time to deal with her parents in her own way. Becky’s injection of herself is just as annoying as Dorothy trying to change Joyce in Gender Studies class when Joyce is clearly has a crisis of faith.
My position isn’t because Becky is gay. I’ve been the kicked out gay kid. Ben there, am that. There is a such thing as tact and Becky is not demonstrating it.
My totally baseless headcanon I just came up with is that Jocelyne came out to one of her brothers, maybe Johnathan since he’s showing up.
It’d be nice if, even under that roof, she wasn’t alone and had someone supporting her.
Ooh, hey, I forgot about her. Maybe Becky will get to learn about her during this trip and we’ll get to see more of her.
No, Becky – stay back! You’re Kryptonite to middle aged Christian dads!
Ooooh! Sabotage. Interesting. Good thing Mom’s not there. Bystanders could be severely injured by the schrapnel from that explosion.
And I don’t even have my popcorn popped yet.
Hopefully this will be an evening of awkward forced politeness.
…no fireworks this time? Please?
I sure hope Walky’s pleased as whatever specialty drink they have in TacoBell.
Umm… I… I’m sure gerything’s fine 😡
BECKY: “She made the same expression when I kissed her, dangit.”
Oh boy. Oh boy. Oh boy. Oh boy. Abort abort abort!
I don’t really… understand why Becky felt the need to make her presence known here. Even disregarding the discomfort it might be bringing up for Joyce, I probably wouldn’t want to be in the same room as Mr Brown for fear of stirring up shit and getting kicked out of the dorm.
Possible explanations?
If she didn’t make her presence known, how would anyone notice her, silly?
How foolish of me not to see that :3
One day I will be as wise as you, Yoto! *not even sarcasm*
I’m Figuratively perfect.
Becky might be coming with Joyce? Joyce asked her earlier. I mean it’s hard for her to come and remain invisible at the same time.
she could take ninja lessons from Dina
Yeah, I checked the tags, and it does seem like Joyce and Becky discussed the possibility of visiting the Browns together.
LINK
Although Joyce’s reaction in both that strip and this strip kind of lead to the idea that Joyce was not fully on board with Becky coming along.
I dunno. It sounds excited and desirous, just worried about Becky’s safety.
LOW KEY SURPRISED THIS DIDN’T END ON THE SHOCKED JOYCE FACE
DDDDD:
Ah, I was wondering what’d happen when they met.
Looks like it’s for tomorrow tho.
Oh… uh…. well… shit.
Becky might be takin’ a risk here but Becky’s also been Joyce’s friend for most of her life. You can’t just assume all fundies are gun-toting Christians. I’m sure she actually LIKES the Browns and just wants to see if they’re down with Taco Tuesdays.
I think Joyce is the only Brown that Becky wants to have Taco Tuesday with.
After Taco Tuesday they deal with something else brown.
This daily poop joke has been brought to you by Someone.
You know that’s unless she had any lewd thoughts about Joyce’s mom during her teen years.
Boom ! Let that settle in for a while.
I had lewd thought’s of Joyce’s mom since 2013. It’s literally impossible to stop me from doing it! (unless you killed me or something)
Anything you fantasize about Becky probably thought years ago. Such like that three-way dream she had about her and Joyce herself.
You know the one with the cherry gelatin.
ABORT ABORT !!!
wait, should probably not use that term around Mr. Brown
DESIST !!
ABORT THE BALLOONS! ABORT THE BABIES!
But seriously, Hank had damn well better be nice to Becky. She’s his daughter’s best childhood friend. If he’s mean to her now just because she’s a lesbian, I’ll be… well, actually, I won’t be too surprised. But I will be VERY ANGRY.
Yesss Becky. Bring things to a head now, and not when Joyce is trapped at home.
Becky and Common Sense …. Nope, you’ll never see those used in the same sentence ever again.
I love how everybody gets mad at drama causing characters, while failing to consider that without them this comic would be boring as fuck.
Dumbing of age with out the dumbing.
Amber: I was going to dress as a superhero, but then I got therapy.
Walky: I will calmly offer you this toy and not lob it at your head.
Danny: I have physic powers and know exactly what is happening in every possible situation.
EXACTLY
We consider it! It just hurts sometimes =p
Replace the name “Danny” with “Mike”, and I’m 98% sure that last statement is actually true.
Ruth: This really hot girl in my dorm is an alcoholic and a drunk driver! That really makes me angry for some reason. I better go get counseling to deal with my problems so I don’t take it out on her for no reason.
Becky: I am a lesbian, but also very good at disarming people/situations literally and figuratively.
Ruth: I use non-violent, non-illegal discipline techniques and don’t defile my charges.
Mary: I learned to distinguish between following the bible and being a kind and Christian person.
Could you not refer to sex between two enthusiastically consenting adult women as “defiling”? Thanks.
I think they mean the forced kiss, which was a total breach of propriety both in terms of consent and in terms of the power differential at play.
I figured it was a reference to Mary’s “defiling the cheerleader” comment, and thus assumed it was used ironically.
Dude, all else aside, I want sweet physics powers
Beehive poked!
People getting mad at Becky showing up, and I’m all like
*Joyce and Becky were talking about her visiting along with Joyce. Becky was all for it and Joyce didn’t really reject it.*
So much this. Also, does everyone who’s saying that realize that what they’re saying is “How dare you Becky? How dare you be alive in a way that inconveniences Joyce’s ability to try and lie her way through the weekend?”
Like, Becky exists. Becky is probably coming along. Becky at the least should say hi to the closest thing she has to remaining family and show her humanity given that Joyce will definitely be having a fight this weekend over her moral choice to not literally leave her out in the cold.
Becky is doing nothing wrong unless you believe “inconvenient” people should be hidden out of sight so they won’t “upset” people.
And being one of those “inconvenient” people? One of those people who people straight up tell on the regular that I am doing something wrong walking down the street, it’s really not okay to be doing that.
It doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t make one feel fully human.
Queer people should neither seen nor heard until it is convenient for our “allies” who have so graciously granted us conditional permission to exist.
Or until our “allies” need/want to make a big dramatic show of how they Do Ally so well. Without asking us about what we want/need out of an ally, and then getting all offended when we get annoyed at them for either steamrolling over our own wants (case in point: if you want to be an ally, make no assumptions about whether I’m comfortable with the entire room knowing I’m bi – you can call out a stranger using bigoted language without using me as your prop. I assure you, there is pretty much no situation in which I am comfortable coming out to the entire room – not the least of which is because being an out bi woman is like having a superpowered creep magnet implanted and then I’m the one who has to deal with groping and creepy propositions for threesomes all night), or making a situation worse, or making a situation about them.
FYI: same holds true for disabled and chronically ill people – you’d be amazed how often I get the cops called on me because I “must be on drugs” (read: am being visibly autistic in public because I made the mistake of thinking nobody was watching and let my guard down a bit) or how often people threaten me with violence for asking them not to expose me to things that make it hard to breathe (like asking smokers to abide by provincial law requiring them to be a certain distance from the entrance of a building) or how often I get told I should “just stay home” if [asthma trigger] bothers me so damn much. Bonus points if I get told that by someone wearing so much perfume you can smell them 20 feet away in a supposedly scent-reduced environment, or by someone who just emptied half a bottle of perfume into the women’s washroom so they can pretend their shit doesn’t stink.
I’m sorry you have to deal with environmental sensitivities. Those are really tough.
Becky volunteered to come home with Joyce, and I don’t recall Joyce ever telling her no. So why all the surprised comments? She was going to have to make Hank aware of her presence at some point.
Because the comic plays it like a surprise. Joyce doesn’t ask if Becky’s packed (even though her dad got here earlier than expected), Becky is hiding around the corner with the others rather than walking down with Joyce to meet him, and when she pops up Joyce has a worried/surprised look on her face. I mean, they may have totally planned it and Becky was just hanging back to give Joyce a moment with her dad, but the presentation of the strip is “unexpected Becky is unexpected”.
I wonder what Joyce does eat.
Probably spaghetti and burgers.
Lies.
I do have to say that starting your sushi-eating career with a whole shrimp seems like a poor choice. Tuna, maybe wel or a California roll are probably easier for a newbie.
Becky is only guilty of wishful thinking here, I think. She sees Joyce’s dad behaving in a friendly, normal, happy way and probably thinks everything’s okay between them despite the dad knowing about what happened. This is an adult she’s known since she was a child, and probably views as an extended family member. I think she wants pretty desperately to have some kind of acceptance/normalcy from her old life, and thinking that her friend’s dad isn’t going to outright spit venom in her face is not an unreasonable thought.
She’s probably had tons of exchanges like this with Mr. Brown, and in fact was with the Browns when they dropped off Joyce. It reads like her trying to pick up an old rapport. From what she said about the Chik Fil A protest, these parents are the more subtly homophobic ones: “It’s not about hate, it’s about choice,” which might make her feel like they’ll be more likely to be friendly with her in a ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ way.
So yeah, this might not have been a wise decision, but it’s one I sympathize with and find more sad than anything else. I certainly don’t like that she’s garnering immediate hatred in the comment section for it, and the tone of it makes it read like people would rather her keep her head down and try to be invisible. She’s said nothing here that would upset either Joyce or her dad, it’s her presence that may be upsetting, and that’s not something I hate Becky for. I don’t hate her for trying to reach out and reconnect to another adult figure in her life that she hopes won’t spit in her face.
A nice interpretation of Becky’s action. And if true, it’s sad.
She is too decent basically to see that he is not going to react well, I have a feeling.
This is a good comment.
Awww :/ Yeah, I see that
I really like Becky since she calmed down a bit after exploding onto the world scene. I think she’s strong, resilient, bright, funny and a good person.
But, I sit here staring at the last 3 strips, and see Becky’s face when Walky ran his mouth about Joyce and Dorothy’s pretend marriage in gender studies.
And I can’t see any reason why Becky would pop out, in full bloom, at this point, unless she is deliberately is trying to put Joyce on the spot.
Personally, the way Joyce has treated her or not treated her recently, I think it’s about time Becky gave a little back to Joyce.
Joyce hasn’t been mean, but she is so wrapped up in herself, as she usually is, that she was getting comfort FROM Becky at the car wreak – instead of GIVING it to Becky who surely needed her best friends attention.
Joyce needs to grow up in more ways than one, imo. We all have problems, they kill us or we grow up. Becky is growing up.
And yes, getting even is growing up under certain circumstances.
I can think of a reason why: Hank is basically a surrogate father to her, and she doesn’t realize that unlike Joyce, Hank and Carol don’t let their compassion and innate decency over-ride their ingrained bigotry.
(well, Carol doesn’t. Hank tries at least. Sort of. For his kids. While passive-aggressively reminding them of his religious interpretation on the subject. But at least he respects that his kids are good and well-meaning even if they don’t always make decisions he agrees with. Remains to be seen whether Becky counts as “of the kids” for this. And from experience, “hate the sin not the sinner” talk can still be pretty damn hurtful even if it’s intended well.)
That’s right, don’t pretend nothing happened, gaze upon the lesbian and despair!
Just like I do when me and a girl seem to have a lot in common and hit it off!
Well now Becky is putting Joyce is a position where Joyce will have to defend her from her !@#$ father. But maybe it’s better they get this in the open, than pretend it isn’t there?
The question is, will Joyce defend her? I wonder.
Supposedly she really likes Dorothy, but refused her request to walk her downstairs because she’s an atheist.
Joyce has risked her life for Becky, and vice versa. Heck, when Becky came out, Joyce was willing to risk the wrath of God. I don’t think the wrath of Hank really compares.
She will defend her because she is a good person and she knows it is the right thing to do.
Dorothy was asking Joyce if having her around would help. Joyce stated the fact that it wouldn’t. This isn’t Joyce rejecting or hurting Dorothy, it’s her acknowledging the obvious.
Becky is different than Dorothy here because:
1) unlike Dorothy, she’s actually going to come along and support Joyce all the way through, not leaving her without support in the face of her parents’ dissatisfaction with her choices;
2) unlike Dorothy, she’s Joyce’s childhood friend, having known her since forever, and is much more effective at actually lending Joyce emotional support just by being there;
3) unlike Dorothy, she’s known these people since forever too. She’s not just an ‘undesirable friend’ stranger to them, she’s their Becky. She might not make the situation as a whole less awkward, but she’s definitely going to ease some pressure off personally Joyce by taking it herself instead;
4) unlike Dorothy, she isn’t just there for Joyce. She’s there for herself. As Cerberus has mentioned numerous times already, these people are the closest Becky has to her own parents now, and they are well aware of that. She needs to clear the air there – find out for sure what this relationship is now going to be like – absolutely regardless of Joyce. That she’s actually going to help Joyce along the way is a nice bonus.
(And she is going to help Joyce. All the lectures of “lebianism is sin and Toedad had a point” that were going to be targeted at personally Joyce are now going to at least be shared between them, and that makes one hell of a difference)
All of this.
*loud screaming inside because acknowledged by Cerberus The Best Coolest Person In This Thread*
^^
“Senpai noticed me!!” is basically my default response anytime Cerberus responds to one of my comments. Unless they’re disagreeing with me then it’s more like “Oh no I have erred grievously.”
Becky, you scamp >_<
Oh no becky, now is not the time
I mean if she’s coming with them it’s kind of the only time unless she plans to sneak into their trunk and surprise them at home instead.
The really amusing bit will be when they get to the Brown home and Dina gets out of the car behind them. Having been completely unnoticed through the entire car ride.
Dina is the living proof of bisexual invisibility.
I doubt that was intended, but it’s kind of neat.
Dina’s never been confirmed as bi, actually. The way she said that gender expression might not matter to indicated to me that she was pan, or more specifically panromantic since I also view her as ace.
This needs to happen.
Both Joyce and her dad have expressions that say, “oh crap.” Also for some reason I’m expecting Hank to say “Well, the sushi here is pretty awful. I remember needing a ton of soy sauce.”
More like “In my days, if you wanted sushi you had to go out in the street, all the way down to the coast, get on a ship and hunt the goddamn tuna by yourself.”
(Would Hank say “goddamn” though? I wonder if it counst as blasphemy)
He says gaddanged in yesterday’s strip. So I’d think not.
I feel like Joyce’s dad will be more open to Becky than her own dad. People of the same church community don’t necessarily have the same beliefs.
I want this to be true. Very much so. All involved need a break.
“I feel like Joyce’s dad will be more open to Becky than her own dad.”
That’s an awful low bar to clear, so I’d say that he is.
You’d be surprised how many kick the bar in protest.
So do I… but only because Becky’s dad did not set a very high bar.
Look at all the people getting on Becky’s case, for talking to someone she has known her whole life, instead of hiding away in shame.
Bite me, all of you.
Ok, who is this Gravatar? I’ve seen three people with it so far, and the name escapes me.
Pamela Galasso
This. So much this.
Pretty fuckin’ much.
YES!!! Also, Becky has just lost both her parents. The Browns are the closest things she has left.
Exactly, she is reaching out. Behaving normally, against a lot of odds after the last few days. Let’s see if someone can return the favour.
Yep. Why the anti-Becky comments were so ferociously negative was baffling me at first. But then I figured out where the commenters were coming from.
These responses are predicated on the belief that lesbians should know that they are are considered offensive and not fully human. Consequently, they should be respectful of those people who loathe them. Because it would be very rude and insensitive to make those people uncomfortable.
The response is enlightening, at least.
Becky reaching out for the same reason Joyce was so shaken by toedad with a rifle. Because she has been safe with and cared for by the man standing in front of her, for her whole life. Which direction this goes is on him, not Becky.
Sadly, this.
You know, I agree that Becky was through a lot of bad stuff lately, but that’s no excuse for behaving like an elephant in an Apple store…
You’re right. The part where she’s pointing to her vag and going “yeah, baby I like girls here” is really inappropriate and awkward… wait, what’s that? She didn’t do that? Instead she approached with a perfectly normal and humanizing bit of small-talk as she would with a long-time acquaintance she has known for many years?
Well, then, these sorts of comments just got a fuck of a lot more awkward then, didn’t they?
It’d be an interesting twist if Papa Joyce is actually uncomfortable because he’s unsure how to react to a kidnap victim. One who he knew from basic childhood and is terrified/sympathetic too.
Of course, I remember when I stopped being a fundamentalist. I actually had a lifestory somewhat similar to Willi, except I felt into fundamentalism rather than was indoctrinated for it so I don’t have an excuse. I became deeply ingrained in the belief system and started speaking all sorts of terrible crazy things. I also became a homophobe.
Then I went to work at a job with an openly lesbian boss. She was a nice person and it occurred to me, the first time I met her. “Wait, I’m supposed to be hateful to this person? There’s something wrong here.” So, I was just polite and after a week, realized I was a sick male bongo for behaving like this.
It was the beginning of the end for my fundamentalism because recognizing basic humanity and empathy is the enemy of all hate.
I believe the distaf counterpart for bongo is dickwad. At least that’s mine. Easier than saying male bongo.
Erm.. I feel like this is causing her friend needless trouble here…. and why?
Because of family.
Because Joyce is her best friend in the whole world and she doesn’t want her to be alone.
Because she has known Hank her whole life and decided to put her head on the block to find out if all dads are terrible or just Ross.
Because her parents are gone, her school has kicked her out but the Browns still serve as a link to her old life.
+1
Ditto. 🙂
Ok we’re doing this you know what why stop here let’s get two atheists out here alongside the smartass who you know is going to be a shit no matter what.
I want to test Hanks patient’s here like how much will you put up with and if he succeeds Congrats he’s way more likeable than his wife.
Oh my god y’all. This time it’s just frustrating because I have no idea how y’all are even getting to the conclusions at which you’re arriving. How in the world is Becky being a smartass or a shit?
fer shizzle
I haven’t seen this much Becklash in months. I have no idea where it’s coming from, let alone in a strip where Becky is enthusiastically greeting someone she probably sees as the closest thing she has to a father in her life right now.
Becklash? Is that her stage name when she gets into kinky porn?
(I’ll be in my bunk.)
Someone coined it months ago for the irrational hatred Becky received for such heinous actions as “being a bit flippant” and “spending 20$ on a haircut.”
Their name has been lost to history, at least because I can’t be assed to look it up.
The first usage that Google knows about is here, by Halloween Jack. The comment refers to “yet another…”, so it may not be the first.
Homophobia is where it’s coming from.
Queer people aren’t fully people, don’t you see? And any time we get uppity and act like we are, we deserve anything that comes to us as a result.
That’s where it’s coming from.
(See also when I got kept in for in-school suspension after some biphobic bullying for longer than the bullies because I had “contributed to the situation” by coming out. That kind of victim-blaming is at play here and it boils down to how dare Becky exist while openly lesbian around people who aren’t comfortable with her sexual orientation)
He’s probably talking about Walky.
Oh, fair. In that case disregard my flailing.
Nevermind thank you Viktoria
I was talking about Walky and plus I’m enjoying every minute of this.
Hank has patients? I didn’t even know he was a doctor.
“Patience” “patients” that’s what I get for using google voice translator and not spell checking.
Oh good, Becky is being loud and fun right away.
Nope, nothing that could possibly indicate that something is about to go down.
Also, the expressions on the final panel are all perfect. I request larger versions. I demand them.
I did the easiest for you, which is Hank’s.
Why, Becky. Why.
So, um… I read some of the other comments. Guess I got my answer 🙁
Go Becky Go!
I’m rooting for Becky to make things better, not worse.
That look on Joyce’s dad’s face is totally just his “What happened to your hair?” look.
Yuuuuup.
Well, I’m rooting for Becky anyway.
I agree we shouldn’t judge Hank by Toedad’s measure. Becky is a girl he half-raised, if she’s that close to Joyce. He has watched her grow up and (hopefully) loves her as a quasi-daughter too. He also knows she’s been through crazy trauma just now. Being fundamentalist doesn’t means he has to be a total a-hole; Joyce isn’t, and she had to get empathy somewhere.
They aren’t making it to La Porte, are they?
WELL GEE DOESN’T THAT SOUND LIKE A MURDER SCHEME
Iiiiiiiit’s BECKY!!!!
Breaking the ice with funny Joyce storie as is her habit! She and Sarah are more alike than Sara likes to admit.
It’s the best way to break ice!
I thought the best way to break ice was with one of those ice breaker ships.
She tried to ship with Joyce already.
Beckys Gonna Troll!
Think quick, mr Brown. What do you say to the girl who was raised partly under your roof, basically as a sister to your daughter, who was thrown out by her family and school and assaulted with a gun by her father because of who she is? A father who is a part of your community and who was upholding your values.
Hint: The correct reaction is to display concern. “Becky, I’m so glad to see you. How are you holding up?” would be one acceptable way to phrase it.
I admire your optimism
It’s very Becky-like. 🙂
Ah, hope. That most dangerous of emotions.
I admire Becky’s optimism. It’s her neck on the block now.
There are lots of ways in which Becky annoys me, in that she’s the type of person I can’t stand in real life. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand why she acts the way she does some times.
But this is one of those annoying ones. And it’s not because I think she should hide because she’s gay. It’s because Joyce has also been through a traumatic experience and has literally just started talked with her father. It’s a private moment, dammit. She’s even smiling. Best friend or not, sometimes you shouldn’t intrude.
Now, Becky may have taken the lack of shouted Bible verses and the fact that even Dina can identify the facial expressions as smiles to indicate that things will be fine. If the issue of whether she was going to accompany Joyce was never actually settled, she may have decided just now to risk it.
She could even be worried that Joyce seeing her family again could get her re-brainwashed into homophobia and have decided to pre-empt that, so that if Hank’s going to say horrible things about her he’ll have to do it to her face in Joyce’s presence. Whether she’s thought it out or not, she’s throwing down the gauntlet here. It’s a perfectly understandable thing to do.
And it still just reaffirms all the ways I find Becky annoying.
You mean the traumatic experience of Becky getting kidnapped by her own father? This is the experience you are referring to justify calling Becky annoying?
Don’t you know straight people are the REAL victims of homophobia?
Though they likely mean her almost-rape.
Well we have a lot in common.
Everything youve written here— I feel the same way;
Except about the Homophbes in the readership attacking Becking for existing Or Transphobes demanding Carla Be “that Perfect girl”
<<<holds up mirror.
"Whether she’s thought it out or not, she’s throwing down the gauntlet here. "
Hmmm
"And it still just reaffirms all the ways I find" Phobes "annoying".
yup
I sorta understand why Becky thinks this is okay… but quite honestly, it’s not okay. Joyce needs time away, time at home without any of these issues bothering her for at least a little while.
The odds of “these issues” not bothering her at home were like 9438 to 1, even if Becky had hidden away in Dina’s room all weekend long. First: she’s already outspokenly gone to bat for Becky to her mom, and there’ll be hell to pay for that; second: her own current crisis of faith and newfound ability to curse would be causing trouble even if Becky wasn’t involved at all.
Seriously this. She’s coming home specifically as part of a “oh baby, are you okay after that man came to the school with that gun” thing. The chances that Becky and her sexuality weren’t coming up this weekend… hell, this day were absolutely zero.
Becky showing she exists isn’t changing those odds, because that discussion was going to happen one way or another anyways, because that calm before the storm there was just the small talk before shit gets heavy.
Now I am wondering what plans Hank had for preemptive damage control on the drive back. Like trying to maneuver Joyce into not getting into a confrontation with her Mom.
A futile hope, of course, but sometimes you just have to try.
Is “I wanna sex up your daughter!” next?
“Don’t worry, Mr. Brown, we’re not sleeping together anymore. She wanted to but I needed my space.”
Thats tomorrows comic
I hope Hank doesn’t blame Becky for Ross’s actions.
The less her parents talk about it, the better
You’re comparing a funny anecdote to sexual harassment? I don’t see the logic here.
I find it kind of gross that so many people’s first reaction to this is “GODDAMMIT BECKY!” and not: “THE BALL’S IN YOUR COURT, DON’T FUCK IT UP HANK!!!”
Glad that *someone* gets it. I’m not entirely sure where all those other people came from. Have they been READING the same comic strip that we are?
I hold out 0 hope of Hank not fucking it up. That’s the problem, he’s going to fuck it up and Joyce will suffer for it. Why Becky thinks that’s a good thing I don’t know.
I doubt she thinks it’s a good thing. I think she hopes Hank is going to respond like the man she remembers him being because she’s taking her prompts by how nice he’s being to Joyce right now. If he reacts badly, no doubt Becky will be horrified and miserable. Acting like she’s doing this just to torment Joyce or even with the idea that it will torment Joyce is doing her a disservice.
Your blaming Becky for the Homophobia she has to face, every single day for the rest of her life. Its never going to stop EVER till the Homophobes stop it; or people like you , grown a spine and Flip The Script.
“I hold out 0 hope of Hank not fucking it up”
How do you stack up in the same standards , you hold up for Hank and Becky?
Considering all the LGBT readers right now, maybe wonder how you stack up in the “not F-ing it up “?
“will suffer for it.”
How will your comments effect LGBT readers? will they suffer for it too?
“Why”.. you “thinks that’s a good thing I don’t know’
( actually I think its about not thinking )
So so gross. It’s really victim-blamey. And it really doesn’t feel at all okay.
So much this.
People are saying ‘Dammit Becky’ as if she hasn’t been through jack shit recently. I don’t want to spark a flame war here, but let’s just make a few quick notes:
JOYCE: Having her religion challenged, reacting badly; Nearly raped; Had a gun pointed at her; Punched the asshole who did it
BECKY: Already challenged her religion at some point, partially over it; Painfully rejected by Joyce (partially reconciled???); Had a gun pointed at her; Got kidnapped; Has shown tendencies to cover up emotional trauma with a cheerful mask
They’ve both been through shit, sure. But I don’t think it’s fair for most of the comments I’ve read to say “Becky is annoying, Joyce need space” or “Becky is fine, Joyce is traumatized” etc. etc. (Note that those are the slightest of generalizations.)
You have to remember that Becky, under most circumstances, reverts to her happy-go-lucky exterior to deal with stress, trauma, and sadness Keep that in mind when you make comments about why Becky is “so annoying right now”. (Another extremely slight generalization.)
They’re both victims, and you can’t just let one fall by the wayside, as it were.
TL;DR: Becky and Joyce have both been through shit, give them both some slack.
Oh, and Becky doesn’t much have any family any more PERIOD. Joyce still has several siblings and her parents.
Also, Becky’s own FATHER is the one that pointed the gun at her. Reasons like that are why I say Becky doesn’t have any real family. As far as we know, at least.
beckysiblingarcplzplzplz
Those are all great points. These are two traumatized people with very different ways of expressing it. And they are both doing the best they can to rebuild their lives in positive ways (Joyce reaching out more about her PTSD triggers, questioning what she was taught as a child, Becky studying hard to enroll in college, being super cute and healthy with her girlfriend).
hahahahaa wow i didn’t even think about this until you said it thank you
I’m not sure what Willis has in mind for this, but I speculate an alternate explanation for Becky’s actions. She’s just been through an entirely traumatic experience. Her father has turned on her in a vile and malicious manner. Her college turned on her. Presumably her church turned on her. Her life has been put in danger. This happy-go-lucky attitude she has? I suspect it’s a front.
Becky is hurting inside from trauma and betrayal, and she wants catharsis. She got some of that catharsis when she flipped off her father, but I wonder if she doesn’t want more. I wonder if she’s not putting herself out there so boldly in the hopes, consciously or unconsciously, that she’ll be attacked and thus get to attack her attackers in turn. She wants Joyce’s dad to judge her, so she can flip him off like she did her father.
Which sucks for Joyce, but Becky’s been through just as much as Joyce has. She deserves what she needs to heal as well. If I’ve got this figured right (and I might not), Becky’s got a lot of anger. And that anger is legitimate and requires outlet. That’s why she nuked the closet from orbit. That’s why she’s butting in on Joyce and her father. She’s painting a target on herself and saying “come at me, bro!” in the hopes that her retaliation will release the feelings she has inside.
I don’t think she wants Hank’s judgement. I think she wants his love. His acceptance. His assurances that she’s not an unperson in his eyes. That she’s someone he can at least be civil and kind to.
Because as you say, she’s got nothing left from home besides Joyce who supports her in even the smallest of ways. This is her last chance for that.
That’s possible. Like I said, just speculation of a possible alternate motivation. And, admittedly, based more than a little on my own experience being rejected by my family.
I’m sorry that happened to you *hugs*
Could be a situation where Becky came up with both outcomes and thought: “win/win”
Anyway, hope things have gotten/will get better for you, EvilWriter. (Whichever tense works best)
Thanks. I wasn’t looking for sympathy, but it is very much appreciated.
That was years ago, though, so I have, I hope, some perspective on it now. It wasn’t homosexuality for me, but I sympathize a lot with both Becky and Joyce in this comic.
But Becky hasn’t had years. Becky just went through it all a few days ago. And when I see a character who’s been severed from her whole life, who’s been decried as evil, who’s had her father put a gun to her and her friends, and who still is smiling all the time?
Sal said it. Someone who went through this should be traumatized. But not Becky. It just rolls off Becky. Her response to what should be the most traumatizing thing she’s ever been through was, as I recall, “Again!”
That looks an awful lot like denial to me. That looks to me like a thin veneer of “That Perfect Girl” put up to disguise the depth of her trauma. Maybe I’m just used to Willis putting drama in everything, but I don’t think the other day’s [Internal Screaming] was as much of a joke as it seemed.
Or maybe I’ve taken a few details in a story and run the absolute wrong direction with them, that is also quite possible. 🙂
Becky could still have PTSD.
“Win/win” would be my guess, too. When you’ve got your life on track, you can put up with a lot of people just playing along, pretending to be nice, but when you’re in a bad situation you need to crack those masks and find out who’s a real friend, who’s a foe, and who’s just a useless bystander.
I’m going to say this here. Those of you who are acting like Becky did something wrong here? For talking to a person she has known all her life. For showing her face instead of hiding in shame, groveling in how “hard” she makes her friend’s life simply for existing?
That’s really not cool.
And I’m saying this, because that request. That request to hide, to be absent, to apologize for existing is something I’ve gone through… a lot. A lotta lot.
And it’s still scarring me. I was told to my face that things like being threatened with death or being discriminated against or being disowned or being repeatedly accosted or mistreated on the street were because I was being “so stupid as to force myself on people” by existing near them. I was made to feel like the ways in which secondary trauma befell those close to me were personally fault. I was “breaking up the family”. I was “hurting everyone” around me.
At many a time I believed that the only way to stop people from being hurt by my existence was… well, to take a more permanent solution as it were.
And it still grips me. I don’t have that thought so much anymore, but I catch myself when I’m out with someone I love, where I worry about what will befall them for being next to me. Or where I view myself as incapable of being worth the suffering that can come with. Where I view myself as a cancer in other people’s lives. And that is up to me to make it up to everyone. By being, in Carla’s terms, “that perfect girl”.
And the reason that scarred was because society fully agreed with those sentiments. Of course I’m making “everyone’s life hard”, of course I should be held to this impossible standard.
And of course it should be reasonable to ask me to be invisible.
And that invisibility? Wounds.
For Becky, this is the last gasping breath of family she’s got left. Joyce is a friend she wants to support as best she can.
And she’s responding in a perfectly normal way. She’s doing nothing wrong.
And reacting as if she is doing something wrong simply because she exists in space is NOT okay. And I’m sorry to be firm on this, but I’m not sure how to convey just how dehumanizing it is to read so many comments echoing that sentiment so strongly when you have a background like mine.
Thank for that. Completely agreed.
I hope you’re doing okay, these past few comments sections seem to be causing you a lot of stress and pain and I’m really sorry for that. It sucks looking through these and feeling like your humanity/feelings are invalidated in the minds of some people.
Sadly, I’m not. I should be. Because I should be stronger. But I’m really not doing okay right now. I’m sorry for that.
Don’t ever feel guilty for thinking you’re not at your best. You put a lot of effort into being your awesome self and sometimes you need a recharge.
You don’t need to apologize at all. You’ve been very strong for very long, and you deserve a moment to rest and recuperate. You’ve been fighting the good fight and everyone worth caring about, both here and elsewhere, is very proud and grateful. ♥
Like the others said, there’s no reason for you to feel sorry for your feelings, they’re completely understandable. I’ve been admiring all of your comments and your bravery in talking about your struggles in such detail. You definitely deserve some peace and I hope it comes to you. <3
As everybody else has said, there’s nothing to be sorry about. Your comments are always insightful and helpful. You’re a pretty awesome person.
You **dont** have to apologize for yourself.
But ( my unsolicited advice ) Try and be conscious of the energy burden, on yourself, of taking on the job of ‘teh jackass whisperer’ .
It also has a cost —just like reading privileged bullshit.
i think the main benefit of challenging bias and untruth, is the effecting Bystander effects on the other people reading or witnessing a conversation. in this case it signals to gay and trans people that you have their back fully.
And the points youve made here are excellent.
But if its a drain, and the topic is “who is responsible for the burden of homo/transphobic bias?” You can outsource also that to someone .
( Dan Savage? Its one of his main perennial topics )
You don’t need to be stronger, or at the very least you damn well shouldn’t, they need to be more mindful of the implications of what they’re saying. There’s nothing for you to be sorry about you’re an entirely positive and illuminating influence on this community. I know I’m not the only one who appreciates your relentless defense of marginalized people or your efforts to educate people on our issues. You’re very good people and I’m really glad you’re around to set people straight (just not too straight).
Hey Cerberus, sorry to hear that you’re not doing well. I don’t know if this will help since you strike me as someone already well versed in coping strategies. But for what it’s worth, I’ve learned to pay extra attention when I find myself using “should” statements since they often reveal unfair expectations I’m putting on myself. Rephrasing them still seems really gimmicky to me but despite that it actually does help me sometimes.
What Xelgaex says.
Echoing everyone that you are rad, and also that you’ve been extremely generous with your important perspective in these comment sections. As a result, I hear you loud and clear, and clearly many others have, too. Thank you so much!
Also, giving you tons of permission to take a break whenever the comments put you in a bad headspace. (Or, for that matter, whenever you want.)
Does reading/responding a lot do you more harm, or more good? Maybe sometimes one but sometimes the other?
You are much more important than the comments section is.
Please be a bit selfish and take care of yourself. Only you know whether that means continuing to read it all, to take long breaks whenever the comments get to you, etc. You’ve already expressed yourself so well that others will have your back. I hope you do what is best for you, because you are the best. <3
You really don’t have to apologise for yourself. Your comments are insightful and thoughtful. Be as kind two yourself as you are able.
What everyone else said. You’re already being stronger than most.
it’s not your fault!
These are the reasons why I’m still deep, deep in the closet with family and at work. Which will eventually be a problem since in the past couple years, my orientation (while still bi) has slid sharply up the Kinsey scale…so that’s fun! While far from cult fundie status, both sides of my family are very Christian and conservative, and I have no idea how they’ll react.
I’m in a similar situation, Shiro. Liberal atheist bisexual with a conservative Christian family in the middle of the Bible Belt. Very much in the closet about who I really am and what I believe. Even dealt with some friction over voting for Obama, so really not anxious to reveal more.
At the same time though, I really like my family and don’t want to alienate them. Similar to you, I don’t really know how they would react, but I dread having to force that confrontation. (As an aside, I recognize that there’s a certain amount of privilege in having a situation where I can just avoid pressing the issue, unlike Becky for instance.)
So Joyce is the character I relate to more closely here. The one who just doesn’t want things to change while having the sinking feeling that they’re going to. Maybe I’m projecting on to her, but I feel like Joyce is trying to hold her fracturing life together, scared if she screws up she’ll lose something important to her. If I were in Joyce’s shoes, I’d be panicking just like she seems to be.
Rationally, yeah, this is probably a good move on Becky’s part for both her and Joyce and any negative consequences are totally not her fault. But viscerally, I can’t help but wince in sympathy for Joyce who (perhaps naively) seems to just want to get through a visit home without any major drama and with the (admittedly flawed) status quo relatively intact.
Me too, though have my family is atheist (contrary to popular belief, “atheist” and “progressive” don’t go hand-in-hand. There are at least as many homophobic and misogynistic atheists as there are homophobic and misogynistic Christians, in my experience. It’s just that the atheists word it in terms of biotruths whereas the Christians word it in terms of the Bible).
What Cerberus said.
The comic even spelled it out to us less than a week ago.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/antagonize/
I don’t want to be that guy who discredits your experience or anything, because honestly, I really do appreciate your comments and perspective, but I can’t help but feel that Becky could’ve allowed Joyce just a little more time to get comfortable talking to her dad again, because she very clearly isn’t. This said, I was hoping that Becky would be willing to meet with Joyce’s dad and talk to him without being afraid, because she shouldn’t have to hide from people she knew well, and I’m happy she’s not being apologetic for who she is. I just think that Joyce could’ve used more time to prepare herself mentally.
Tell me if my thinking is wrong, because seeing how fragile this topic is I deserve to be yelled at if I am.
If you look at the background on panels 2 and 3, you’ll see Joyce and Hank are walking away. So with that in mind, how much time should Becky wait? Until they are out of the room? In the car? They were already walking way, the time was really now.
Perhaps until they got back. I mean, Joyce won’t be away forever and she’s not coming back alone. I think I just feel bad that Joyce has to potentially jump into he fray again so soon.
So you think she should go into the fray alone. This visit to her parents isn’t a welcome respite. She’s going to need all the help she can get.
I think she should have time to sort herself out, without having to worry that she might have to fight with her parents regarding Becky. Its one thing to get help, but when the person offering it could potentially create an even worse situation going it alone sounds preferable for Joyce.
Yeah, that would be great, but her parents aren’t going to give her that time. Going home alone wouldn’t give her that. It was never an option.
Fair point. I dunno. This seemed like a no win situation at the time. Though Hank is helping make this a moot point which I’m quite happy about.
First of all, allow me to return the *hugs* you gave me. No one should have to go through that, and here you are using your experience to put forth some very insightful comments on the subject. You are awesome.
Now, on to the meat of this. It’s been bothering me since the comic went up why Becky’s actions… well, bothered me. Because everything you said is absolutely true. Becky exists, and Becky should never have to hide that she exists. And yet, something about Becky’s actions kept bothering me. Not her motivations (I go into that in my quite possibly apocryphal comment above), but the fact that she put herself forward at all.
I think we can safely dismiss the idea that she’s doing this naively or innocently. All of the others are hiding behind the corner. There’s clearly a deliberate “let’s leave Joyce alone” vibe here. And while happy-go-lucky, Becky’s not foolish enough to pretend that nothing has changed in her relationship to Joyce’s parents. So she’s deliberately putting herself in a situation that might very well cause conflict.
But so what? As you said, brilliantly, she deserves to exist. She deserves a relationship with the only quasi-family she’s got left.
But still, it kept gnawing at me. And I think I’ve finally figured out what it was.
Becky isn’t taking the risk here. Becky is forcing the risk on to Joyce.
Joyce is at college at her parents’ sufferance. And while Joyce’s parents likely won’t go after her with a gun, they might pull her out of college, and they might disown her. Joyce has a closet of her own, a closet of fundamentalism that she hides in around her parents. If Joyce leaves that closet there could be very real, very tangible consequences which have been hinted at and foreshadowed throughout the comic.
By moving forward like this, Becky is quite possibly forcing a confrontation that will force Joyce to either deny her best friend, or nuke her own closet. And while Becky nuking her closet from orbit is awesome… that’s not a decision you can make for someone else.
I’m not willing to say Becky’s wrong, for all the reasons you pointed out. But Becky is risking Joyce, and she’s doing it without giving Joyce any say in the matter, without giving Joyce any agency. And Joyce clearly is not happy with it. That, I think, is what is bothering me about this.
“Becky isn’t taking the risk here. Becky is forcing the risk on to Joyce.”
No, Joyce already took on this risk, and confronted her parants on the phone.
Joyce already invited her. She isnt forcing herself. She was fully invited.
Look, there is no way this isnt going to be a little awkward. But Mr Brown has a preexisitng relationship with Becky . You are missing the contexts here. Becky probably jokes with Mr Brown about Joyce’s food habits all the time. Shes breaking the ice.
This is extra awkward because the Browns tried to betray Becky to her crazy father. She know it . They know it. They know she knows it. She knows they know she knows it etc.
Not wanting to step on any landmines of this already very touchy discussion, I think I can safely say that I agree in large part with EvilWriter here. However, that agreement is based on my ignorance of a particular issue here. Adam, you and a few other commenters say that Becky was “fully invited” to meet Joyce’s parents with her. I’m not sure if this is true–but maybe my memory’s a little fuzzy, because I’m mostly just remembering the previous comic where Dorothy explicitly asks if Joyce wanted her presence, to which she answered, “no.” If I’m mistaken, please by all means, correct me. In which comic were all of Joyce’s friends “invited” to come down and be a part of this moment?
I’m mostly just asking so I can go back and read it myself, to disabuse myself of any incorrect notions I’m having. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. Darn the lack of an edit button!
Becky offered to come with, while Joyce asked if she was sure she wanted to, to which Becky affirmed.
As far as Becky and Joyce are concerned, she’s invited along for the ride.
OTOH, it was never explicitly confirmed and Hank doesn’t seem to have been informed.
Which might or might not be a good idea, but certainly isn’t an argument that she was definitely coming all along.
And damn near every argument for why Becky shouldn’t have stepped out to talk to Hank also applies to surprising him with her coming for the weekend.
Mind you, I think she should come, but in that case I’d rather the parents be prepared up front.
I suppose the pertinent question is that, if Becky weren’t gay, would there be any kind of hypothetical objection the Browns would have, given their history with Becky?
Likely not, though it’s generally considered good form to let people know when you’re bringing extra house guests.
But if Becky wasn’t gay, the whole situation would be so completely different that it’s hard to parallel. If Becky was straight and Ross flipped out and attacked her and Joyce for reasons not linked to their shared religion, I suspect the Browns would be practically adopting her.
Just checked the archives, and you are correct about the implied invitation, Spencer. Sorry. I read by the update, so sometimes I forget things.
What @Spencer said.
Joyce had already invited her.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/elsewhere/
So if Becky doesnt join up now ( at the last moment ) when could she?
@Evilwriter: back when Becky showed up at IU, the night that Becky came out to her, Joyce cradled her and told her that no matter what it was a choice between, she’d choose Becky. Becky isn’t forcing Joyce to choose.
People also are failing to recognize how SAFE Becky is at the moment, to where she CAN go up to Joyce’s dad to gauge his attitude toward her. Dorothy, Walky and Dina are nearby, Joyce is right next to her, and after toedad you KNOW campus security is on higher alert.
I cannot tell you how much I respect what you have been doing here. You have been clearly and calmly explaining what’s wrong in these comments, staying so polite and respectful of people I am mentally cursing incoherently at. You shouldn’t have to do it, but I find you incredibly badass for taking it on. You are awesome.
+1
Cerberus, thank you for being as open about your experiences as you have been. It goes without saying that it’s way beyond unforunate (replace with appropriate adjective) that you are such a resource for real life experience and context of recent comic events.
Your strength is an inspiration. I hope you are okay and that one day soon this space can be safer and less draining for all.
</3 *hugs*
I'm sorry this is all triggering for you, and I'm sorry ignorant people in the world have caused you this kind of pain. 🙁 For the record, you're awesome and I love reading the stuff you post. It seems like you have a fairly decent support network within this community (despite the ignorant other peeps, cause, internet) — I hope you have something like that within your day to day life as well. Wishing you peace and comfort. <3
Cerberus, anyone who’s earned your love must be good people and they wouldn’t want you to stress yourself because they love you and want to be next to you — and if the people you love love you then you totes deserve that love. Accept and believe it: that’s what you ‘owe’ them.
So, is Becky actively *trying* to start a fight between Joyce and her Dad?
Depends. Is the bare ‘audacity’ of existing an active thing?
A non-extinct Beckasaur?
whats the Bible say?
For greeting someone she’s grown up around and known most of her life? After hanging back and making sure that things didn’t go instantly up in flames before she approached them? She’s just said something completely normal – probably a topic they’ve all joked about millions of times before – to someone who’s played a huge role in her life.
It may not have been the most tactful time to enter, but in a situation like this one, there may not /be/ a better time. She saw an opportunity to approach them when things were good and start off in what should have been a lighthearted way. She’s definitely not doing it for the sake of starting a fight.
I think I might’ve misread the intent of the strip. I read everyone going “Oh hey no bad times” as the cause of Becky going out and talking (like “Oh yeah?”) rather than the probably intent of it ironic foreshadowing
WTF is with all the “omg becky how dare you acknowledge someone you’ve known and trusted for your entire life” going on tonight?
Is it early 2015 again? Did Becky get a new haircut when I wasn’t looking?
Donchaknow, homophobia is now 100% gay people’s fault for antagonizing those poor innocent homophobes, ESPECIALLY when it makes straight people’s lives harder as a result.
It really is.
Couldn’t have said it better. When we’re not causing innocents to perish in the hurricanes we force God to deploy at us, we’re deliberately causing pain to the sensitive and fragile innocents who have been Good Enough to tolerate our presence.
And that’s why, if we insist on coming out of the closet, we should close the door very, very gently behind us so that we don’t upset anyone. It’s the least we can do.
No we need to leave the door open so that it’s easier for us to jump back in whenever straight people don’t want to deal with the truly exhausting travail of us being us anymore.
… if you define “antagonizing” as “existing without spending 99.9% of your time profusely apologizing” then yeah. See also my school which defined me coming out and then going about my day as an out bi girl as antagonizing and “contributing to the situation” when some people decided to be bigots.
Silly me, I’d thought after a kid got put in the hospital a couple months before and the school got on this big “no tolerance for homophobia” kick, they were actually going to walk the talk.
(actually, not entirely. I feared that they were just talking the talk with no intention of walking the walk, but I wanted to see because hope is dangerous like that and it will make you do very dangerous things with years-long repercussions just to see if maybe fear is wrong. From experience: fear is pretty much never wrong when the question is whether or not people are going to enable other’s terribleness and blame the victim instead of the person being terrible.)
http://i.imgur.com/r3U4xax.png
Hey, my grandma has the same hairstyle!(What not to tell to a woman)
for me, its not about homophobia. joyce wants to be alone with her parent and has informed all her friends about it
Becky is coming with Joyce, they’ve already agreed on that. Becky HAD to make her presence known at some point and they’re literally leaving the building right now. The reason she likely didn’t come down with Joyce was to give her and her dad that alone time for as long as feasible but it’s stopped being feasible unless she wants to sneak into the trunk of his car.
Where did Joyce say she wanted to be alone with her dad? (She said Dorothy shouldn’t see her off, but that’s specifically to avoid a confrontation like Family Weekend)
This situation wouldn’t exist and we wouldn’t be having this discussion if not for homophobia, so for me it’s about homophobia.
Having been in that situation a year ago, before other commenters pointed out how awful my comments were to anyone who were not me, I think it boils down to us having done really stupid things ourselves that we know is only our fault and being jealous that a fictional character can get away with it.
It’s
I absolutely hate hitting post comment on my phone when trying to scroll down.
Continued: It’s not homophobia in the sense that commenters believe non-cisgendered/non-heterosexuals shouldn’t be allowed to be honest with who they are and freely express it, but rather in the sense of being unable to put ourselves in the situation of people who can relate to the character before saying anything.
It’s easy to criticize Becky when only seeing her as a fictional character and not as a representation of how real and relatable her life is to a lot of people.
Yep, like you yourselves seem to recognize, no homosexuals = no homophobes, that’s just logic, so its real hetero-oppressive for you to force “otherwise decent people” to be homophobic. Course, it’s equally true that, no homophobes = no homophobes, so, never mind the first part.
People acting surprised at Becky’s actions have no appreciation for tactics or strategy.
Her own dad has just put her and her friends’ lives in danger. With him safely out of the picture, Joyce’s parents – who share the same moral viewpoints as her dad – are the only people who would have both a possible motive and the means to threaten hers and Joyce’s well being.
So for her own safety she needs to KNOW whose side they are on and whether she should expect them to be a threat, and she needs to see it first hand, and through bits of information passed on to her by Joyce.
And she knows that Joyce needs to know that too, head on, before she is taken out of the comfort of her new home and into the lions den so to speak.
Seeing that Joyce and her dad were clearly avoiding talking about the issue and doing the whole “lets pretend THE THING did not happen”, confronting the issue head on was clearly the smartest and bravest thing that Becky could have done, as now Joyce’s dad is pretty much forced to reveal his cards in front of everyone.
+1
I don’t think that’s a wrong way to look at it, in fact I think that’s something Becky wants on the table for her own peace of mind, but I took this as her jumping in because she’s just honestly that happy to see Joyce’s dad again, because right now he’s the closest she has to a good parent in her life.
I like your interpretation too! It was clearly created by someone with a much more pleasant and hopeful interpretation of the world than mine 😉
So what if he totally sides against her? Now she accelerated the process and she’s fucked even harder than before. Honestly, if it WAS to see if Joyce’s dad was willing to be a good guy or not, that was a huge gamble on her part, since it’s not even clear he knows everything yet. For all we know, he was turning a blind eye to the situation so he could not rat out Becky while still being a “good Christian”, and now he can’t play ignorant.
For all we know Joyce’s dad is going to smother her with a massive hug and buy her a pizza.
hopefully!
For all we know Joyce’s dad is going to smother her with a massive pizza and buy her a hug.
less likely but maybe!
Thanks for that imagery. “Being smothered by a massive pizza” is now my new number one food fantasy.
Not as fun as you’d think
Not as great as eating one of those giant cakes strippers pop out of. Especially if instead of hollow there’s ice cream inside. If there IS stripper in there then I’ll hand her a fork because we’re gonna double team this ice cream cake.
(I already achieved my original dream which was to get a cookie cake, put ice cream between it and eat an Ice cream cookie cake).
never type “double team this ice cream cake” ever again. im mad your comment made me do it myself
Double
Team
This
Ice
Cream
Cake.
I feel like putting a mostly naked person in an ice cream cake is a bad plan.
Naked people is never a bad plan. Don’t you worry though. She’s been cleaned and is wearing a breathing apparatus.
Yotomoe, you are a magnificent banjo.
If they are going to Galasso’s, not entirely unlikely
(or sub)
Again I’m reminded how very much I want Becky to get a job at Galasso’s, both for the potential hilarity and because Galasso is explicitly and canonically not-homophobic.
Galasso has already invested significant company resources into a thinly-veiled attempt to better understand the fundamentals of human sexuality. He could quite plausibly hire Becky, not as a basic foodservice technician (although there would likely be some of that just to fill time), but rather an official PR rep and advisor on LGBT issues.
(Alternately, this comment is meshing with the Becklash being Becky’s kinky porno stage name comment elsewhere on the post in weird ways about which I’m not sure how to feel.)
Well, Dina is canonically a dom.
And if you’re referring to the comic I think you are, Becky is definitely into it 😀
I love running gags
Never thought I’d be HOPING for love the sinner, hate the sin but here we are.
Except she’s not really any worse off. If he sides against her now in person, he was going to do it anyway. Tear the bandage off. Get it out in the open now, before Joyce leaves and is stuck alone with him with no way to escape.
Hmmm. I wasn’t actually expecting that to strike the chord that it did until I wrote it, but I’ll bet that is in the back of Becky’s mind.
You are clever!
I’ve never been Beckys biggest fan, I think she has some very good points to her but that shes also quite obnoxious (no doubt due to her upbringing) I wouldn’t want to hang out with her in real life (and she probably wouldn’t want to hang out with me either)
But in this case the only issue I see with what shes doing here is that she could maybe dial it back just a little, maybe start with “hi Mr Brown” (I’m assuming she calls him Mr Brown) first
As people say this is a delicate situation, we and they don’t know what hank is feeling right about now and forcing the issue now would be a bad idea
But Becky has spent her entire life growing up with the Browns so for her to interact with Hank is completely natural so I’m not sure why people are getting bent out of shape that Beckys talking to her (probable) surrogate father
Yeah, and even so this IS a pretty dialed back opening line. She is telling a funny Joyce story. We KNOW that Becky has done that her entire life. She is interacting with Hank exactly as she has always done, which means that what she is really saying is “Hi, everything can be normal between the two of us, despite everything, right?”
The potentially shocking thing she does is… to exist, and just as you say she and Hank go way back. She peaked around the corner to check his mood and that he was alone (she might have tried a different approach if Carol was there). She decided to take the risk. Good thing she did.
Yeah as I say though in this specific situation a bland neutral opening gambit may have been better
But I’ve got a feeling Hanks going to be ok with Becky…probably because when Carol goes bonkers it’ll be even more heart breaking
You’re arguing on the premise that Becky and Hank are at odds with each other, which there is literally no evidence for yet. Why the need for strategy at this stage?
No I am not. I’m arguing that due to the current circumstances of well everything thats happened that maybe a cautious hello might be a better option then cracking jokes
Once its clear what the situation is then by all means crack jokes but I’m assuming that for the community Hank is involved in that jail, threatening murder, coming out, abandonment etc etc it might be considered a big deal and as such peoples nerves might be on edge
All the better to show up here, and gauge his reaction. Right now, Becky’s in the safest possible position to do what she’s doing. She has the company of her peers here, her best friend Joyce, and campus security. There is no other possible time for her to have an opportunity to straight up confront Hank on his opinion of recent events.
and saying hi or hello wouldn’t accomplish the same thing?
Simply saying “hi” is not a very Becky thing. And her casual talk should be all too familiar to Hank, since she grew up with Joyce.
Yeah sure of course, we’ll forget that Hank is dealing with a friend of his going to jail due in part to the threatening of Joyces life, we’ll forgot that hes probably feeling like he a failure because he couldn’t protect his daughter, we’ll forgot that hes now in a situation thats he probably never been in before and hes trying to reconnect with his daughter after a traumatic experience and thats without even knowing how is wife is reacting
and we won’t mention how Joyce might be feeling either, there are three people there all with differing degrees of feeling guilt, feeling shame, feeling scared, feeling hope and feeling love (and probably even more emotions) so you know what I don’t think that playing it safe in this situation is that unreasonable
You’re very passionate about this and I admire that, but Becky isn’t stepping on any toes here. She’s saying hi, in her own way, and whether or not Joyce’s dad wants her gone remains to be seen. Until then, let’s not pass too harsh a judgment against her.
Chris, making a totally in-character joke about Joyce’s longstanding unwillingness to try new food IS playing it safe. It doesn’t ask anyone to confront anything, and it immediately gives Hank a way to begin talking with Becky if he wants to. That’s an easier opening for everyone than, “Hi, Hank! So nice to see you after my recent kidnapping!”
Also, from what I’ve seen of Hank’s personality, I seriously doubt he and Toedad were ever friends, church community notwithstanding.
It would be playing it safe if these were anything close to normal circumstances but they’re not, chances are Hank will be fine with it but Becky doesn’t know that so why not just say Hi or Hello and let the conversation go from there
Or is having a little tact now considered a bad thing?
Because that’s not Becky and Hank knows it. It would come across as forced and awkward rather than natural.
What thejeff said. It would be like when Sal met her parents, remember? Playing as safe as possible, and totally fake. Didn’t work for her, did it?
@chris73: Nah, actually Becky IS making it easier for Hank here. If she opened with ‘Hello’ she would have put the pressure of responding in a non-awkward way on him, and he would have 100% not be able to do that. “Hi” IS the awkward opening there.
Instead, Becky set the tone, and Hank now has the option to go with it and continue discussion Joyce’s food habits and sushi and cooking and what have you, forcing back all the awkardness for now.
Or rather than forcing back all the awkwardness, hug Becky, tell how glad he is she’s ok, how sorry he is for what happened, if only they had realized, of course she can come home with Joyce and that she’s got a home with them any time she wants it.
You know, like a fucking decent human being would in this situation.
And we all know he won’t. However harshly or politely, he’ll leave his daughter’s childhood best friend who has probably half grown up in his house, homeless because his religion tells him being lesbian is a sin.
@thejeff well to be fair contributing factors are not just his own attitude to lgbt+ ppl but also that of his family and community. He might well have no personal objections to Becky, but it’s going to be awkward anyway just because of Ross having being his friend / what his wife told Joyce over the phone / the entire context.
Actually, if he counted beforehand that he’d most likely meet Becky and figured out how to react, he might well actually respond in a ‘normal decent human being’ manner. It’s just if he isn’t prepared that it falls on Becky to break the ice…
IDK. Maybe everything will be sunshine and rainbows with Hank and it’s only with Joyce’s mom that all hell will break loose (which it undoubtedly will)…
Well, it’s not all on him and he might well be better than most in his community, though the evidence is sparse on him being too much better. It remains a possibility.
OTOH, if you let your daughter’s best friend remain homeless because your community won’t approve, you fail. That’s a community I want no part of.
If you let your daughter’s best friend remain homeless because your religion doesn’t approve, you fail. That’s a religion I want no part of.
If you let your daughter’s best friend remain homeless because your spouse doesn’t approve, that’s harder, but still, I can’t imagine staying with someone like that.
At the very least, at that point, you take those first couple of steps, still do what you can to reassure her (and Joyce) and help, but let her know she should steer clear of Carol.
If he was more prepared, he might be more able to fake not being a complete bigot, but if he hasn’t been worrying about the little girl he remembers not just being traumatized by her dad, but also about where she’s going to live and how she’s going to make it, then he doesn’t have an excuse for not being prepared.
This isn’t complicated and it isn’t hard. You don’t have to study. It’s basic community and empathy stuff.
And that’s the damage his religion has done.
@thejeff: so you’re saying that Becky is wrong here because her approaching Hank like she has her entire life even after he found out she’s an evil lezbo puts him on the spot to act like a decent human being to her…yeah, I can see that. No tact, no consideration, that girl.
So here comes the challenge: Just how desperate is Joyce to ‘go home again’ and does Becky have a place there? Additionally, just how far does Bank’s tolerance go with his daughter’s friends? Particularly one with the historical baggage that Becky brings with her?
“Becky, how dare you talk to your best friend’s father, who you’ve known your entire life. You should be more sensitive to Joyce’s feelings after being kidnapped by your own father at gunpoint for being gay!”–very reasonable and not at all jerky posters
On one hand there’s, yes she absolutely should be able to. On the other, Joyce is already dreading this weekend enough, in her own way and with her father situation Becky could realize just how scary confronting your parents with change can be, because its going to come out. Regardless to me it seems like Joyce’s Dad’s sortof an ‘unknown’ factor here with regards. He DOES seem to want Joyce to branch out and try new things and be her own person which is WAY different from Becky’s dad obviously. How he reacts to Becky I think will range more to the kind, if patronizing. But poking an unknown like this is….risky. I think most people criticizing Becky are doing so more out of the situational caution most of them would show. Which I tend to think is the right direction to take in these cases since any resulting blowback doesn’t just hit her. I’m something of a dick and handle the trouble my mouth has historically gotten me in, but even I know its rude to potentially cause chaos for a friend.
What I don’t like is people acting like Becky is the only one with any agency, and that her feelings don’t matter. Again, she’s just talking to him! There is no reason to think that should cause any problems–unless Joyce’s dad says something homophobic. If he does, that’s on him; why should Becky be blamed for his choice, especially when SHE’S THE ONE WHO’S GAY?!
And again, SHE’S THE ONE WHO WAS KIDNAPPED BY HER FATHER AT GUNPOINT. Why is no one worried about HER feelings?
She needs to avoid being victimized for her sexuality because it could make the straight people in the room uncomfortable.
did you forget that this man is indeed *joyces* father, not beckys. joyce obviouslt wanted to be *alone* with her father, and it was going well
As far as we know, it still is.
As far as Becky’s family is concerned, this is the closest she has left… remember Joyce’s reaction to Toedad’s threat? They are ALL family.
…. I struggle to understand the comments today. Why is everyone so quick to blame Becky? Why are other’s as equally quick to defend her. There is no bad guy in this situation. It looks like Becky is causing problem’s for Joyce but that has more to do with Joyce feelings of needing to protect Becky than anything Becky has done herself.
The sad truth is they’re both victims here. Victims of the situation that surrounds them. Decisions and assumptions made or possibly made by “other people” have created an environment where Joyce feels like a simple conversation between her best friend and her father is a akin to stepping on a landmine. Joyce shouldn’t have to fear Becky being spotted by her family. Becky shouldn’t have to feel like she has to hide from people she’s known most her life. We don’t know how Mr.Brown will react but that will be on him not Becky and not Joyce.
I’m typically all for finding a middle ground, but in this case the “becky why are you being so annoying” brigade has nothing to stand on, because Becky has literally not done a single thing wrong in this strip, and that’s why we’re quick to defend a character who gets shit on a lot more than she deserves in the comments at times.
I swear when I saw Becky in like three strips at the beginning of this comic I did not figure her to become the most polarizing character in DoA.
It’s good storytelling right there.
The main grounds I have is that this was a private moment. It was Joyce enjoying a little talk with her dad before things had to get ugly as everyone in the room knew they would inevitably have to, establishing that yes, they do love each other before the shouting match starts. And you don’t get in the middle of that. I don’t care if you’re a man, a woman, gay, straight, atheist, christian, pastafarian, or an eggplant for all I care. When your friend is having a family moment you stay to the bloody side for five minutes and don’t friggin interrupt.
That said, I have less than zero hope that Joyce’s parents aren’t going to pull some monstrous thing too, so I suppose the writer figured that might as well get it done with ASAP.
In five minutes, they’re out the door and in the car. Interrupt now, chase them out the door or let the chance pass entirely.
Joyce is literally just having a conversation with her dad. A conversation. If they started dropping dramabombs then sure, but all they’re doing is talking about dinner.
Like, I guess if you squint a bit then the language of the strip reads as if Becky suddenly appeared to shock them, rather than Becky just walking up and announcing her presence as she probably has done with her secondary, now promoted, family.
Yes Dina those are smiles, though Joyce looks so awkward and unsettled as she is unsure of what her parents are going to pull this weekend on her, and just a few weeks ago anything negative happening wouldn’t have crossed her mind.
Sometimes waiting for the other shoe to drop is the worst thing of all. Not fully knowing where you stand but suspecting it is negative can be worse then establishing it actually is sometimes.
i can understand what people are saying by defending Becky in this scenario
HOWEVER- I’d like to point out that when Joyce stood up to her parents she won. When Becky did- well yeah. Now granted those are very far cries from being the same but I [would very very much] like to think this means that although their parents share the same viewpoints- Joyce’s wouldn’t go to that extremes, So Becky’s sneak attack is a little unnerving. Because I believe if Joyce doesn’t play the part her parents WILL take her out of school and I’m not sure Joyce is ready to be on her own and walk away from her family. That may have been a bit messed up on Becky’s part.
On the other hand the fact that the voicemail Joyce left on her mother’s phone has yet to be answered or brought up could mean something is waiting for her at home. Maybe Becky knows this, maybe she doesn’t. Regardless of her intentions it’ll be good for Joyce to see the reactions and maybe stay if she is not safe at home.
Time will tell
Since when is making casual conversation with a family friend you’ve known nearly your whole life a “sneak attack”?
It’s weaponized lesbianism! :O
I hear that the most dangerous kind
kind of like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7YW045deBY
This is beautiful.
“they released those spores”
>>>
Google Search of “weaponized lesbians” pulls up:
http://www.destructoid.com/valkyrie-drive-is-marvelous-next-senran-kagura-289729.phtml
Well she’s known her father her whole life I’m assuming and when it was discovered she was gay it did not end well. Now I do not know the Browns to react this way- but after Joyce’s conversation with her mother it stands to reason she’s uneasy about how her parents will react with Becky. Perhaps Becky does not recognize this, but seeing the discomfort on Joyce’s face- she did not expect Beck to do this nor did any of her friends.
Hence- sneak attack
But it’s not an attack. It’s talking about Joyce like she usually does, as recognized by Joyce’s dad.
If anything, she’s testing the waters for sharks.
However you want to interpret it is fine.
And maybe you’re right- who can know the intentions that Becky has for going out of her way to talk to someone she knows shares the same viewpoints as her father.
But Becky isn’t stupid. She may be overzealous and forward, but she’s not stupid. She knew her dad wouldn’t take her being into women well and she has to know Joyce’s parents- again who she knows shares the same viewpoints as her father- would perhaps not be totally accepting. She knows they know. Maybe she believes Joyce’s father would take it better- I don’t know.
But she’s smart enough to know that after everything that has happened, a negative reaction could possibly take place.
Would that excuse Joyce’s dad for making one if he does?
No- but there is such a thing as poking the bear. It’s not definite that a negative reaction will happen- but there’s a good chance.
Again- I don’t know the intentions but we shall wait and see.
If a negative reaction does take place, then there’s no safer place for it to happen than here, in the company of her peers, her best friend Joyce, and the ramped up campus security (presumably). I see no danger around.
Violence wise I suppose- but that’s assuming Joyce’s father would react violently.
There is also danger on what perhaps this casual conversation may start later. Might not be anything. May be another lecture on Joyce’s choice on who she associates herself with. Maybe a bad tongue lashing with Joyce having to make a choice. That danger could be present.
Remember Joyce has decided to support and protect Becky- she called her parents to tell them so but hasn’t had an actual real time conversation yet. They could’ve been waiting until they had her home- or Becky’s actions may move that up now. Which in all honesty would be the more preferable route.
Perhaps nothing may come from this conversation and Joyce has nothing to worry about.
Maybe this conversation is irrelevant.
Maybe this conversation will start something here and now.
Who knows.
We’ll find out soon enough.
Again, this is the safest position for Becky to be. If she senses any danger, she can simply stay at the college where she has all the support she ever needs. And that would be that.
Anything that happens between Joyce and her dad would not be Becky’s fault in the least. Joyce can stand up for herself like before.
Not necessarily. Joyce is thus far taken responsibility for Becky. Becky is pulling her weight, gained friends, getting a job, and has a girlfriend. She’s doing pretty good and has a cushion to land if things go wrong.
But for now she has no place to go but this college that she is not apart of and can be kicked out with possibly no place to go [again- she has people to help but who can say what would happen]
Take into consideration that the Browns are aware of her situation. They may not know for sure that Becky is crashing there but they know her father isn’t supporting her so she can’t afford to go to college there. They put two and two together and all they have to do is report they believe she may be there then there’s a good chance it will be looked into and she will be found out.
And no- if something happens with Joyce and her dad it wouldn’t be her fault directly. I do think if something does happen it will be because Joyce supports her which no- it’s not Beck’s fault, no one made Joyce support her. But it will be about her and if it does she’ll feel like it is and- poor Becky again.
I hope you’re right though and nothing bad happens
totes exactly, Sharks.
and some commenters went and jumped said sharks,
with more “perfect girl” entitlements .
Becky has been keeping Joyce sane for decades, yet commenters that have never seen the inside of the Brown Home, think they know better.
( Its a shame Becky cant see their scandalized faces )
Just saying, a lesbian casually talking to a homophobe is not an attack on the latter.
no but its a pretty fucking stupid decision if your friend has stated that she wants to deal with this alone
That’s a good point. Joyce did want to face this herself. And she is.
Becky is saying hello, nothing more.
Where did Joyce state this?
Uh never mind, same person I’ve already responded to elsewhere on the page. My bad, didn’t intend to hound you.
That voicemail —- I’m hoping that Hank was the one who played it, then erased it. And Carol never heard it. (Go on, call me a dreamer.)
When Becky stood up to Toedad by calling 911 on her girlfriend’s phone, a superhero appeared on the roof of a moving car. That still counts as a win.
Becky’s smart here, imo. Joyce’s father’s reaction *now* will indicate whether or not her parents will allow her to return to school. Depending on how this conversation goes, Joyce might not go home with her father.
Because honestly, the small talk her father is making with her sounds an awful lot like a trap. “Oh, we’ve made your favorite food, everything’s going to be just great, blah blah blah…”
Becky knows Joyce’s parents – just as Joyce knew her own father. They go to the same church, have the same mentality… let’s not forget that Joyce’s mother defended Becky’s father’s actions. It’s not a huge leap to think that Joyce might be in for a heaping dose of the same when/if she leaves with her father… possibly not to return.
Becky… there’s a time and a place for everything. But whether this is the place and time for whatever you’re doing, I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.
The time and the place for greeting people is when you meet them, this is exactly the time and place.
On that I agree with you.
Excuse me please but I don’t get one thing: are the Americans really so much religious en masse? Or it just my wrong impression? I just don’t get used to it, it still new thing for me.
BTW, I need to say my big thanks to mr. Willis for keeping doing the right work, and for all (excluding trolls, racists etc.) people in comment section. You are the one’s who keeps me alive everyday.
Excuse me for my bad English, I still can’t write & speak right 🙁
Certain areas of the US are very religious, but not all of them. There is a region called “The Bible Belt” that groups all the most religious States together.
Thank you for the answer, and providing the information.
I think Becky did that not for lulz, but mostly to know how Hank will react to her
But also for lulz 🙂
I’ve never run into this, just the opposite actually. Christians and people of faith getting the stink eye and atheism/agnosticism being the bone of contention mainly in the news.
La Porte! It all makes so much sense now! That’s where I live. That’s really cool.
Becky you’re cool and i love you now BUT WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING
Making conversation with a man she probably considers a surrogate father…?
OKay that’s cool and all but
Becky isn’t stupid
she has to be aware that Joyce’s family would be homophobic too
It’s pretty obvious that this is a bad idea.
You are blaming her for others potentially being homophobic at her. Stop that.
What?, No.
Don’t put words into my mouth I’m not blaming her for anything, if Mr. Brown decides to be a freaiking douche nozzle i’m not gonna go “YOU SHOULDA EXPECTED THAT BECKY”
it’s a bad idea because it’s just going to cause more trouble for both her and joyce. I understand wanting to talk to SOMEONE she’s familiar with, I do, but there would be a time and place for it.
“she has to be aware that Joyce’s family would be homophobic too” is literally what you said. No one put words in your mouth. That really is victim blaming.
Is it her responsibility to see that she isn’t attacked by homophobic people? Absolutely not. It is THEIR responsibility to NOT attack gay people.
Oh my god that is NOT what I meant!
I know a guy who I used to be friends with, we were close, real close but I told him I was gay so now when I see him he throws me verbal abuse, so instead of approaching him whenever I see him I avoid him, THATS what I meant okay? It’s a bad idea because it’s a situation that’s just going to make her upset and it would not be her fault at all but she should just avoid the people she knows are homophobic because it’s just going to make her feel worse
I’m not good with words, I’m bad at explaining what I mean sorry
Hey, no worries. I didn’t mean to upset you. But I understand your meaning now. 🙂 In this situation though, we don’t know his reaction, and she isn’t directly seeking a reaction from Joyce’s dad. She’s just saying hello.
But remember Joyce already stood up to her parents over Becky.
and Joyce invited her. If anything , Joyce needs Becky for moral support.
Becky must have Joyce’s implied assurance her parents will be gracious.
And what happened to you isnt your fault , at all.
wait Joyce invited her? Wow I completely forgot that
I have really crap memory.
She actually didn’t. Becky offered to go, to be Joyce’s moral support. (Though I did remember it as Joyce asking before rereading the strip, myself. I think I might have originally accidentally skipped over Becky’s speech balloon where she offered, and Joyce’s ‘are you sure’ sounds like she asked without that context.)
She has friends to back her up, her best friend Joyce, and campus security in the area (presumably stepped up after Toedad). How bad an idea is this again?
I, for one, am deeply amused at the indulgent reference to Joyce’s dietary habits and Becky’s description of Joyce’s face.
Everything else, I don’t know where this is gonna go so I’m focusing on the funny. I think that’s wise after the last week or so.
A very Becky attitude!
Everyone who’s framing Becky’s greeting as “an attack” needs to see things from Becky’s perspective. At this point, Becky doesn’t know who at home she can trust. So when Joyce’s dad comes to pick her up, Becky, being herself, took the braver option of going out to greet him and test the waters. This way, with the company of trusted peers nearby, she can safely assess him without fear of violence.
She wants to trust Joyce’s dad, but how would she know for sure he could be trusted unless she confronted him herself? Going through Joyce, while safer, is unreliable because he could put up a front for Joyce’s sake.
Thus, this is her only option.
The danger isn’t that he’ll do something violent to her, the danger is that he could get her thrown out of Billie’s room and out on the street. That’s what I’m worried about anyway. All he has to do is call the school and tell them about her and then Becky is back to living under a bridge somewhere.
They’ve known about Becky being there though, he’s had 4 days to call the school and have her kicked out. If he didn’t do it after his daughter was almost shot due to being near Becky, he’s probably not gonna do it because Becky showed her face.
Remember Ross? There is 100% danger that he’d do something violent to her. Or Joyce. Not hitting, no, just arm-twisting, blocking exits and physically dragging where he wants them to be and preventing from leaving.
Hank doesn’t seem all that big and strong compared to them, granted, so it’s not a big danger, but just – violence is not all or nothing. Even words can be violence.
Can’t I just be “Dammit Becky” for her timing without victim blaming? My interpretations of Becky’s behavior lends itself to impulsivity, which I am sadly lacking.
I facepalmed and then said to myself “Well, we’ll see where this goes…” Though, it turns out that I had completely forgotten about how she wanted to go back with Joyce. It just, maybe would have been more tactful to let Joyce bring it, but then, we are talking about 18-year-olds and who among them always make tactful decisions?
It was perfect timing comedy-wise. Otherwise, I don’t see it as anything but harmless.
That being the very thing and why I facepalmed. It was a comedic action and Becky’s impulsiveness is often used for comedic effect.
I’ll accept an agree to disagree about whether or not her choice of approach effects the outcome of her interactions. 😉
And I will not. I bite my thumb at you, sir. x(
Looking back at the strip, my reaction was definitely influenced by the look of panic on Joyce’s face.
All these reactions seem to be exacerbated by the amount of time between each strip and people forgetting what has happened or how recently, but such is the world of non-compiled comic reading. I’d put money on anyone reading these for the first time in book form will have more rational responses or at least forego the rollercoaster before arriving at their irrational response.
I don’t really get why everyone is so polarized about this. Like I expected this to have the full bell curve of reactions way more than the two opposed viewpoints that are on display
Before I continue my rambling rant, I want to try to make it real clear that I’m really not trying to be offensive at all and if I sound like I am, it’s probably because I’m tired and stupid. And yes, I realize that this makes it sound like I’m going to say some really terrible things, but I’m being honest, I swear!
I feel like Becky is kind of in the wrong here, but in such a small way it’s kind of negligible. While Joyce hasn’t exactly been the best friend to Becky, she’s still trying her damn hardest to be supportive to her and is now trying to take just a single weekend off for self-care because her life is pretty much going in the crapper. Becky’s life is also going into the crapper if it hasn’t already been submerged. But I think the fundamental difference here is that Becky has her new friends (and a girlfriend so supportive that she kicked the crap out of her abusive father) to spend this one weekend with. Joyce’s friendships are not helping her and she took a step towards mental health by meeting with her parents instead of burying her emotions (Though I’m not sure her parents will help at all).
The reason I don’t think this is at all a big deal though is that Becky does really have every right to see Joyce’s dad. She’s not doing this to be a jerk, but to better connect with her childhood best friend and family. If nothing bad happens from here on out (which won’t happen, this is a narrative after all) then I feel like this could be solved with an awkward friend hug and two apologies. Neither of them communicated their desires well, so I can’t be at all mad at either of them. They’re just humans both trapped in a shitty world. Except this world is controlled by the Dark God Willis, who enjoys pain.
Bleh, sorry for this incoherent text wall.
I really don’t think “self care” is a good way to describe Joyce’s weekend. One aspect of what Becky is doing here is making darned sure Joyce doesn’t have to face her parents herself.
Yeah, home visits like that are not the self-care. They’re the things you need self-care for.
I can agree with the majority of this. No wall of stupid from where I’m standing. 🙂
Oh dear god. It’s like watching a car crash about to happen, except I can’t stop grinning like a madman.
why becky shouldve waited is simply because joyce totally had everything under control. shes got a “plan” and everything will be fine. becky shouldve waited for joyce to give a signal or just not gone there at all. not because the dad might be homophobic but because she should respect joyces decisions in this situation. shes trying to sort out her life
I think that you are wrong to say Joyce had a plan beyond “Fake it and hope everything comes up okay”.
she stated earlier that she just wanted everything to be the way it used to be. so let her have this weekend maybe? and it doesnt really matter if her plan is to fake it. its her plan and she believes it will work, so why go against her plan?
Because human beings are unpredictable.
Things can’t go back to the way they were, her parents know that a friend of their’s, a community member, aimed a gun at their daughter. They’re gonna swarm and coddle her, be overprotective, and then try to soothe away any doubts she has in her faith. While affection from her parents would be great, the affection is more in line with “oh our precious daughter, we know something bad happened, but you know God had a plan, right? And Ross was only trying to help his misguided daughter. Poor Becky, so confused. If only she let Ross help her…” There is NO WAY things can go back to the way it used to be. Joyce is already very angry and tense. Being in that atmosphere i gonna make it worse. Whereas Becky should have been cautious, Joyce’s parents already knew Becky was there. She’s not some spooky gay boogeyman, hiding in the shadows and waiting to pop out and scare them. They know she’s there with Joyce, Joyce told them about it. All Becky did was walk up and say hi to a man she’s known all her life. She didn’t say “HI MR. BROWN I LIKE VAGINAS”, she just told him about how Joyce ate sushi and didn’t like it, obviously joining in on an inside joke about Joyce’s picky eating. And Becky was gonna try to come with Joyce anyway, so…
i cant help but notice that youre bringing up vaginas in this even though i didnt say she should be cautious because of homophobia.
oh and so youre saying that dorothy is the spooky atheist boogeyman? all of them were supposed to stay away, not just becky
Becky is pretty clearly going to be coming home with Joyce as they had agreed earlier “staying away” is a non-option.
Then…why else does she need to be cautious around Joyce’s father? Why else can’t she walk up to him and say hi? Why ELSE is Becky reminding Joyce’s father that she exists gonna ‘ruin’ her plan to go home and be safe? Because of her haircut? Because of the almost shooting?
I mean, there’s no other reason why Becky is now ‘messing things up’ by saying hi to Joyce’s dad. It’s the homophobia right? Because it’ll make him uncomfortable, because of what happened due to the homophobia? Dorothy was told to stay away, yes. Something which is kinda moot cause Joyce’s dad already knows about her atheist best friend. Joyce had Dorothy stay away because she’s scared she might set her off, and tiptoeing around him like this isn’t healthy. As Emily said, Becky is going home with them AND Becky knew Joyce’s father prior to this incident and to the college.
Dorothy doesn’t personally know Joyce’s father, she wouldn’t really drop by to say hi. Becky has known him all her life. And again we circle back to how you insist that you don’t sh should be cautious due to homophobia, and yet I cannot fathom any other reason why she would have to be. She’s not an atheist, she belongs to their church, she is Joyce’s best friend, and she’s from their neighborhood. Becky got this reaction because she is gay and apparently shouldn’t show her face to anybody she knew from her previous life now.
Boy, I really have just picked the wrong storyline to go ahead and become a commenter, haven’t I?
No no, I very much appreciate what you’re doing here. On the mental wellbeing hand, though…maybe the wrong storyline, unfortunately.
For some reason I can’t reply to you, Shiro, but I wanted to thank you! I appreciate your appreciation 😉 I don’t know if maybe it IS just because I’m paying attention to the comments now, but it seems like the past several comments for the pages have been so…extreme. Hopefully tomorrow’s comment section isn’t so extreme…
no, really. please stop assuming everyone who dont think like you think the exact same way. im not even thinking that mich about hank when it vomes to this. i even stated that i dislike that becky just ran in and interrupted *because joyce probably wants to have some alone time with her dad and theres a reason why she didnt just bring becky with her to her dad from the start. im not concerned about hanks potential homophobia, i dont care if hank would feel offended by her fucking sexuality. i just want joyce to get to talk alone with her dad for a little. is that so difficult to understand? im gay, yes. so please stop thinking “oh here comes another hetero who wants us innocent gays to hide forever”. just stop and freaking listen to other peoples opinions maybe?
Please stop assuming, she says as she assumes. I never said YOU were a homophobe. And you certainly aren’t listening to my opinion. JESUS. You are the rudest person I have EVER MET. You are putting so many words into my mouth. I never said you were a homophobe and I never said gays were innocent. Fucking Christ. You have a point that Joyce needs alone time with her dad, but you were acting as if Becky descended like the god damn anti-christ.
How the fuck are you gonna sit there and scream at me to listen to your opinion when you won’t even consider mine? I considered your’s, you just didn’t explain anything beyond Becky ‘ruining everything’ and giving Joyce her weekend at home so she can pretend everything’s back to normal. That ain’t gonna happen. How about you do a little ‘practice what you preach’? I’m done with you.
She won’t ‘just have this weekend’ something huge happened to their community, her parents are going to try and make her see things from their viewpoint. We don’t know what that point is but it’s unlikely to be what it should be. And Joyce won’t have any backup and will be trapped ina place she’s used to being obedient and mindless.
of course becky is allowed to join in, but she can still let joycw talk to her dad alone or?
This weekend that every time it has come up, she has talked about how much she’s dreading it? That‘s the weekend you’re talking about ‘letting her have’?
Yes, Joyce wants everything back the way it was, but she’s not stupid. She knows that isn’t going to happen, and she knows that the best case scenario of this weekend is her family not disillusioning her more than she already is.
and shes not allowed to be alone with her family id she decides to?
@skdk, You are not paying attention to the story. and are following your own head cannon.
Joyce, did not decide to go home, or decide to go home alone of her own free-will. OK?
That’s something you made up.
( why you may have, I will get to later )
Joyce did **not** decide to take a break and go home for self-care, that’s something you made up. Its not true.
Im not going to parse this. Its black-and white.
Joyce did **NOT** decide she wanted to be alone; she was acting out of fear, and a sense of intimidation.
That’s why everyone snuck downstairs to watch Joyce. Its fraternal concern.
Joyce isnt Dina. Shes not an introvert per se. She didn’t ask for alone time to recharge. OK?
She was forced into going home against her wishes;
and her home-life is sufficiently coercive and restrictive, she feels she cant refuse without triggering a punishment.
( Have you ever felt that way? Have you ever felt that you had to pretend things were Ok at-home when they were not? I’m asking becuase thats why you are projecting onto the text. Thats classic dysfunctional family ( al-anon ) behaviors. )
In this home-life Joyce previously had one-perfect ally. Someone who always had her back. Her name is Becky.
And if this weekened might any way be used to draw a wedge between her and Becky ( a reasonable assumption ) on the basis of religious or scripture fundamentalist attitudes, Becky needs to be there too.
Both to have Joyces back ( since Joyce is vulnerable ) and so Becky directly takes any heat. ( and can Humanize their abstract-values onto real person ) .
After all the recent publicity surrounding Becky they are probably less likely to take a hard line to Becky’s Face.
( Not least, as it could eventually end up on the public record, in a court of law. )
There has never ever, ever, even been single page, ever , where Joyce has expressed a need to be away from Becky. ( Thats how I know this is all your head-cannon-only. )
Which is weird in-itself.
Joyce has basically no normal personal boundaries with most of her female friends. And literally none with Becky.
Joyce had to actually be taught by becky , that Becky might need some space once in a while.
@Skdk , aside form all this,
The reason commenters have come down on you so hard is your statements have internalized-homophobic values. and are then promoting and projecting them. I understand that you are not straight. Well AWESOME. ( I am sincere in that )
But, that doesnt give you a free-gay-pass to be immune from internalized homphobic values. Its the inverse actually:
You are much more likely to be sensitized to these things to manage your environment from potential harms, and to be the explicit target of homophobic value and attitudes. I dont know what your personal environment is like, but … it sounds very unlikely you have received unconditional support.
And If you have received any support, it appears it was very conditional on the account of being some type of ‘good gay’ ‘not that like those proud
( “shameless” ) ones’ .
If youve been taught this its wrong,( or that you cant be proud, or you can only be good in spite of , or indifferent to being gay ) Im telling you **THAT IS wrong** in absolute terms.
Gays ( LGBTIQ, -XYZ ) deserve unconditional support for being gay. Positive unconditional support, because thats what equality IS. That is equality.
Its Equality, because straight people receive this for being straight , from the culture. And project that deviances from this, are shameful, harmful, and damaging and burdensome to themselves ; and to the people around them.
Let me say that again: ***project that deviances from this, are shameful, harmful and damaging; and burdensome to themselves and to the people around them.** That attitude is ubiquitous in the culture, ( sometimes referred to heteronormativity ) .
This is what you are assuming that Becky’s presence will cause. Its a homophobic attitude. If you were treated this way, that WAS WRONG!
Now I can almost understand why you might be concerned Joyce’s Fundie family might act this way. Thats how homophobia works:
‘I have unease, I have weird feelings and Im going to project these onto you as the cause. Your very presence caused these bad feelings in me, Not the Bigoted culture.’
Its hate, its homophobia and its wrong. ( Its why everyone is up your shit.)
Now, You have made an additional series of automatic assumptions, which is what made me conclude this. They are NOT in the text of the story.
Skdk, its Purely your head-cannon.
( and to be crystal clear, I am not putting words in your mouth or assuming you are a homophobe. I am saying you are projecting attitudes onto the characters that imply a homophobic attitudes, needs, and motivations , outside of the text. And then, Normalizing those attitudes , and expecting the Gay Character to conform. ( this right here is what the other commenters are reacting to ! )
And if you are Gay, the first person you are victimizing here is YOU. (!!!)
You cant hurt Becky, shes fictional. Seriously, everytime you unconsciously think like this, its like you are stabbing yourself in the face. So , No I’m not going to give you a ‘free-gay-pass’ .
***FUCK***THAT**SHIT** I’m going to throw you a life-preserver , and hope to hell , you grab onto it.
( especially when it means a its a free pass to keep stabbing yourself in the face )
**Now back to the textual analysis:**
You said: “she stated earlier that she just wanted everything to be the way it used to be. so let her have this weekend maybe? and it doesnt really matter if her plan is to fake it. its her plan and she believes it will work, so why go against her plan”
This statement of your right here is what sparked this entire lecture from me to you. OK?
You may NOT consciously believe the internal homophobia embedded in these assumptions. Or might just think its some sort of necessary natural navigator barrier in the landscape. Like driving around a hill. ( rarely, it is )
This is the Core of the onion. What Ive been building to. I hope I havent lost you on the way.
Joyce out of sadness, desperation and loss of innocence , and nostalgia ; wished she could go back to her past. Nobody can! This is what it means to be an adult. She was raised extra-sheltered, in a benevolent patriarchal world where authority figures knew best and and guided by the bible and jesus and Prayer, automatically knew right from wrong.
Out of this human desire for shelter, and security of ones childhood home, you have added something in your headcannon which is homophobic: That to go there again means Joyce must shun the very central element of her happy Childhood: Becky! Thats Beckys presence is the thing from this scenario which is wrong. That Becky will burden her with her presence and keep her from feeling peace. Yes, this is a virulently homophobic reading, especially as its unsupported in the text , and literally contradicted EVERYWHERE.
First , you made the error in assuming that:
(1) Joyce’s articulation of an Impossible fantasy in the middle of a trauma ** was a real statement served up for a travel agent**, when it WAS ONLY A METAPHOR!
(2) That this Fantasy must necessarily exclude and shun Becky, WHEN IT WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE TO INCLUDE HER
**BOOM DROP**
So no Joyce made a statemtnt out of shock and trauma that wished a future impending problem , could revert to a fantasy reset of idyllic seeming childhood innocence.
You and You alone , parsed this to mean a literal statement of travel plans which necesarly included some classic homophobic shinning for the sake of straight peoples mental health.
( it pains me just to think: ‘how many times you were made to feel this way.
How many times was this toxic lie snuck in your head, that you would unconsciously export it’ ? )
The text does actually support this reading of Dorothy due to atheism. But even this isnt absolute, its conditional. Joyce knows her parents want to check on her due to the influence of said atheism, and know the violent events around Becky, and the Becky being gay.
This isnt that Joyce needs to shun Dorothy. Shes already refused to do this once.
It’s that she needs to triage and manage all these different problems and burdens, with her parents. Joyce doesn’t get to go home to her fantasy. She is being made to go soak up the burden of her parents fantasy-world , having cracks. You assume Becky is the Dam bursting. She isnt . Becky is the head-nurse and Ross is the Flood. ( mixed metaphor ) er Epidemic.
***
Finally its possible I am in error about your feelings and pressures. BUt If I am wrong, My support toward you wont be unwanted. At the very least, it could do good to some gay person reading this , that needs to hear that unqualified unconditional support is what is moral.
If I am right, then my message will likely irratate you. I’m sorry.
I Just dont know how to do that any better; or if there is a perfect way.
I might even seem arrogant or even patronizing — But I dont want to push you down, I want to pull you up.
Youll just have to forgive me for not being “an innocent gay” . I aint perfect either. Even the ones who arent “innocent” deserve unconditional support for this. Even me. Especially , You.
If I am right ( about implicit homophobic attitudes ) , then you may not believe me. I cant fight a lifetime of your cognitive dissonance on my own , in 5 minutes. BUT… BUT
I Have FAITH. I HAVE FAITH IN MY WORDS. * They will have reached out across time and space , and planted a seed of self-acceptance in your heart. IT WILL GROW. One day you will wake up , with the knowledge you don’t have to apologize, for any aspect your existence.
One day, You will feel like you are worthy of unconditional support. One day you will know that your deserve this, like every other human. You will know you were not born wrong. That your sexuality is a prized talent ( yes a talent ) and that the “innocent gay” ( “that perfect girl” ) is just a myth! One designed to trick you, to inflicting harm on yourself.
I know that we all dont “think alike”. But, *I know* there is a wrong direction, and a healthy one. And which from which.
Theres your life preserver. Now watch-out for sharks! They are everywhere.
* The proof of my faith is self-evident, existenial.
Without it, I would not have written this. The message and the message-writing begs the question of a place to land. A stranger **thinks you are wrong**, yet still believes in you. Thats what it means to get unconditional support.
Its not the hypocrisy of hate the sin /love the sinner.
Its the wisdom that overtime, with support , the path of least resistance is the sanity of full self-acceptance, over self-harm. You’ve been infected with a good idea.
Waited how much? Until they’ve left the building? Until they’re on the car?
Joyce and Hank were already moving out of the scene when Becky intercepted then. Waiting would mean running after them to catch on. Not an option.
Shout-out to say that I like you for being able to give an even hand go all parties here.
Daddy and Mommy have a plan too. And that plan isn’t good for Joyce.
Becky breaking Mommy and Daddy’s plan IS good for Joyce.
we dont really know that though
…given that we’re sapient beings with the ability to predict future actions based on past ones, yeah, we kinda do.
Yeah, we do.
We do, because we’ve met Joyce’s parents.
We do, because we’ve seen Carol’s phonecall to Joyce.
We do, because we’ve seen Joyce’s reaction to the visit.
We know because Willis is writing this and he relishes our tears.
And because we know his family history.
But yeah, the existing characterization supports it too.
yeah totally, hank seems to be suuuch a bad guy
Why are you being such a jerk? I personally had high hopes for Hank, it’s Joyce’s mom that worries me and who will probably spear head the conversation when they are home.
Becky and Joyce-Dad have known each other for as long as Becky and Joyce have, right? Becky half grew up at the Brown’s house, right? The outlandish behavior would have been if Becky hid from him. This wasn’t a test for Becky to pass by hiding; she has every right in the world to have Joyce-Dad be glad to see her. This is a test of who Joyce-Dad is — and he failed the first section when the 2nd thing that he said to Joyce wasn’t “How’s Becky doing?”
There is a thing called ‘tact’. A mature adult might ponder whether Mr Brown would want to see her. She might consider whether her presence might be an aggravating factor in what already promises to be an emotionally-tense and fraught reunion. Of course, Becky isn’t a mature adult, is she? She’s an eighteen-year-old girl and expecting her to act with the deliberation of someone twice her age is irrational. That’s putting aside the fact that, if you bother to read the archives, ‘tact’ and ‘deliberation’ are about as far from Becky’s behavioural norms as you can imagine. What she did is, in fact, quintessential Becky.
So, those who criticise Becky here, are actually criticising Willis for not writing her OOC for the strip.
Yes, this is going to be awkward. Furthermore, it is important from a narrative perspective as it will probably set the tone for Joyce’s time at home. How willing will they be to accept the changes Joyce has made in her life and perceptions? What pressures might they put on her? What demands might they make of her? The answer to a lot of those questions will at least be outlined by how Hank reacts here.
Tact doesn’t extend to pandering towards people’s bigotry. It is not tactful for marginalized people to conceal themselves from people who are intolerant of them it is repression. Tact implies it is the polite or appropriate thing to do and it’s not. The polite or appropriate thing to do is to not be a bigot.
… I love* how in any situation like this, the onus always is put on the victim to not ‘incite’ abuse, and not on the abuser to, y’know, not be abusive.
* for values of “love” = “hate with every fibre of my being” in case the previous sentence didn’t make it obvious
I had a nice post thought out rebutting the relevance to my original post of the reply above. However, I realised that I was being drawn into protecting a strawman.
Instead, I’m not going to offer that rebuttal because I’m not saying that Becky is any way in the wrong. What I’m saying is that those expecting her to think twice about doing what she did in today’s strip clearly don’t understand the character.
Your post starts with “There is a thing called ‘tact’. A mature adult might ponder whether Mr Brown would want to see her.” For people who are used to dealing with bigotry and victim-blaming for all their life, not reading anything past those two sentences is basic self-care.
So yeah, that’s what everyone is responding to. You could have SO worded it better.
Joyce needs love and space too, and a weekend she was dreading was starting to look like the TLC she wanted from her parents. No doubt she would have found a way to maintain her grounds on Becky, too. I’m with the poster; for Hank this wasn’t about pestering Joyce over Becky foremost, it was seeing his daughter again after a live shooting incident with her best friend. He wasn’t going to push his agenda asap; he was going to be a father first, then probs be passive-aggressively pushy, and Joyce can handle that. Becky should have stayed back because this is a time and place that will prove nothing to anyone, but which can easily be predicted to lead to conflict immediately: Becky and Becky’s sexuality wasn’t going to be the focus, it was going to be Joyce, things that happened to Joyce, and fear over what’s happening to Joyce’s fundamentalism at uni.
If you really think that the first 30 seconds being positive small talk makes it really look like this was going to be a positive TLC weekend and Becky’s sexuality was going to be a minor easily ignored side issue, I can see how you think Becky’s making a mistake pushing in. I think that’s hopelessly naive, both from what we know of the Browns and from a “Damn You Willis” perspective.
Think back on the short phone conversation Joyce had with her mom right after the event. Starts out with the TLC, Joyce starts to relax and take comfort and it whiplashes right into echoes of Toedad. Very likely, that’s this weekend in miniature, except she can’t hang up.
Becky not hiding may make the conflict come sooner, but it was coming anyway. The biggest factor driving their fear over what’s happening to Joyce’s fundamentalism is her supporting Becky and her sexuality. There is no way it’s not going to be the focus.
I don’t think it will be a side issue at all. I actually expect it to blow up the weekend at some point. But to start it just now doesn’t even give Joyce a break.
How much of a break did you expect her to give them? Until they get home? And Becky is supposed to follow them exactly how? Or do you think she should just leave Joyce alone to deal with the fallout of all this?
I feel you’re only looking at this with a “one way is the correct way” set of goggles.
Especially since you seem befuddled by how Brcky is supposed to be there… She expressly wasn’t.
That’s not even true. Joyce at no point told Becky not to come and in fact it was pretty clearly implied that as long as Becky wanted to she was welcome to.
Yeah, my mistake Emily. The topic was dropped rather than set in stone, and Dorothy was given the pink slip.
Also, one of my closest friends has a fundie mom (amusingly, Joyce reminds me of her SO MUCH, which is probably a huge factor in my never getting on the Joyce-is-so-annoying hatewagon). Fundie mom is a fundie, though she doesn’t see herself as such; she sees herself as having left the fundies. Anyway, this mom hates me for no reason whatsoever. I’m thinking it’s mixed factors of racism (I’m Iranian-American, we’re a sore topic these days) and personal issues. Prior to this, she really liked me for several years and we went to church a lot; I’m agnostic, but I do like going on jaunts with friends who have something to share. Even if I’m quietly thinking it sounds like crazy babble.
That was tangential. My point is that in an identical scenario, I would leave my friend and her parents alone, even knowing that it would be likely to blow up, because it would make a bad situation worse. I’d be there for her on the phone and we’d text obsessively, and I might drop by discreetly to go on a walk with her, but I wouldn’t do what Becky’s doing.
But Becky has literally grown up with Joyce. Joyce’s parents are as good as surrogate parents to her. They are one family. Becky’s relationships with Joyce’s parents are not ‘friend’s parent’ relationships, they are ‘close adult relative’ relationships.
I don’t know your situation with your friend, but it sounds like you are not very invested in what her mom thinks about you beyond how it impacts your relationship with her daughter. This is not the case for Becky and the Browns.
Now I’m not because that’s the situation now. Our circumstances are identical otherwise. Becky is probably going to have to do the same distancing from the Browns.
The thing I’ve learned from Becky in the comic is that I don’t have nearly enough experience to make any judgement on her actions, so I’m going to avoid that topic.
Instead I’m just going to say that this is a confrontation that needed to happen sooner or later and we have yet to see any consequences to say which would be better.
Trigger Warning: Story Corps memories of a father whose gay son did NOT need to sneak around him (3:30′): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wHjJUdN16k
I heard that one and had to pull the car over because I ran into a bunch of feels. THAT is how dads are supposed to be with their kids.
its nice to see how everyone went from “joyce is the victim poor joyce shes got the worst trauma bla bla” into now “THAT TRAUMA WAS BECKYS TRAUMA AND SHES GAY BLA BLA”
Why can’t it be both? Why does one have to compete with the other?
its pretty obvious that they are. when the first one was happening, people saying joyce shouldnt be an ass cause beckys the one who actually was in danger werent allowed, and now people saying joyce went through trauma are greeted by angry people saying what the people who werent allowed to speak said before
Contexts change depending on the situation. No one is saying that Joyce is doing anything wrong, and every negative post about Becky has been about “her trying to provoke a negative response”. She’s allowed to say hi.
actually if joyce said “dont come talk to my dad, wait here behind this corner” to all of her friends, none of them are allowed to say hi
And because Joyce is a god, no one dares to incur her wrath except the heathen gay.
I don’t recall her saying that at all. I recall her asking Dorothy to not come see her dad because she’s still an atheist, but that’s the closest we get.
Of course, since Joyce didn’t say anything even resembling that, at any point, that’s completely irrelevant.
you two are also ignoring the little time skip and the fact that all of her friends were hiding behind a corner, i see
Is it your position that traumatic experiences that happened to multiple people can only be owned by one person at a time? They’re both going through trauma, and what Becky’s doing now has nothing to do with it. She’s greeting Joyce’s dad with a funny anecdote. She has not confronted him with her sexuality. She has not questioned what side of what he’s on. You are jumping to conclusions.
eh? im talking about the commenters. go with youre preaching to some comment that has anything to do with it
Attn God-of-the-comic;
After reading todays comments ( after they were closed 2 days last week. Cmon people ) . People Arguing that Beck needs to be ‘that perfect girl’ just like they were Carla , last week;
I vote for Willis to change the name of the Whole comic , for 1 week to:
“Beckys Great Lesbian Adventure: and her Perfect Girl , Transgender friends”
This is to signal with irony, that transphobic and Homophobic comments have jumped the ( perfect girl ) shark.
There’s a difference between expecting someone to be the perfect girl, and them almost going out of their way to provoke people who they know can harm them, when they’re aware that they themselves are easier to victimize.
“We will NOT go away! We have the same right [to exist] as every other American [or, human, for that matter]!” — Red Tails
Wait, when did that happened?
Behaving normally is not provokation. Upsetting Joyce’s father is not the response Becky is seeking from someone she has known her whole life.
Ah yes how provocative of her to exist at him like that. Doesn’t she know she’s responsible for making sure he doesn’t have to be an intolerant ass?
Ew.
People are responsible for damage they receive from provoking bears. Because bears are animals and cannot take responsibility for their stupid animal actions.
People who are dicks are responsible for their dickishness. For all levels of provocation up to needful of self defence.
Survival tactics employed by vulnerable people are up to them, and do not come under the purview of the ethics of abuse or victim blaming, which are always shit.
Theres a difference?
is it like Jumping the Shark vs Jumping the Sting-Ray?
Does Steve Irwin know the difference?
@Nyobo
Were you reading the comic last week?
Ruth had the good sense to apologize , after she troted out :
‘Why did you antagonize/provoke ” X person “of all people” ?
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/antagonize/
You just Paraphrased Ruth —before the meaning of “that perfect Girl” was made explicit by the author ( thru Carla ) . This chapter’s title
Notice that Willis Closed the comments after, giving this message the last word.
Its fair to say, You are arguing *against* the author intent for the story.
You are arguing this , despite LGBT people even explicitly pointing it out for you. Willis Nails it!
So , NO. There isnt a difference. Not all all. The scenario you troted out is what “That Perfect Girl” is supposed to shut down.
Im not even trying to shame you, or even call you out.
I wish I could just get you to consider the viewpoint in that comic.
Try it one like clothes. See if it fits.
Im not trying to make you wrong. Im trying to make you right.
I probably dont have the writing skills to get you see things from a viewpoint, that you havent personally experienced. If Willis cant , Im just a fool for trying. But I can be a fool for you
Adam, you’re being unfair. The commenters are just really wanting to demonstrate the victim blaming at the heart of this arc’s main theme so we can all draw parallels between what’s occurring on panel and what occurs in real life.
Really, all the victim blaming comments not realizing how messed up they sound to people who’ve actually been through parental awfulness for being queer or to trans people are only trying to help.
Well, they are doing a bang-up Job!
I should have figured it out sooner.
Nobody could be THAT Dense to keep Trotting out the Perfect-Victim fallacy,
When the whole Chapter is named after it,
And it was the point of a comic last week ( with the comments closed so people see that. )
Im still hoping Willis changes the name for a week.
( Or someone slips and gets eaten by a shark )
if you say anything against becky youre victim blaming even though you say something that doesnt have anything to do with her sexuality? hi there, im gay and i think that not all gay people should be treated as a victim all the time and no not all gays are innocent angels that cant ever be in the wrong because theyre gay.
i dont know about you, but my life isnt 100% about my sexuality. im nnot my sexuality. yes, my sexuality is a part of me but theres more to me than that. im a person, not a sexuality. and thats how i treat becky too
also did you people notice that *all* of joyces friends are hiding, not just becky?
Well, those three who are still hiding are someone who saw Hank once weeks ago (in bad ), and two who never even met him at all.
Becky is the one who grew up with Hank on her life. The one who certainly slept over on his house multiple times and is basically part of the family.
Totally different situations. You can’t compare Becky’s relationship with Joyce’s family to that of those other three.
Sexuality is not the only root of victim blaming.
Yes, in this scenario if you’re criticizing Becky for her actions you’re victim blaming because there’s no negative outcome here in which a negative outcome is not entirely dependent on damaging actions of another person. If this goes badly it is Hank’s fault and his fault alone.
This.
It’s victim blaming because of how it places blame for bigotry on the victim of said bigotry, holding them to a higher standard than a non-victimized individual would be.
And I know a lot of people have very strong responses to being called out on that. Because victim-blaming is very normalized in our society. We blame victims for literally everything to protect our illusions of meritocracy. But the sad truth, is that because it’s normalized, it can be very hard to notice oneself doing it.
And since a lot of people at least understand that victim blaming is wrong, they can feel really annoyed at being called out for it, because, how dare you accuse me of doing something wrong just for speaking my piece. But that’s not the point. It’s not about the victim-blamers as people. It’s about the action itself. It’s about it’s ubiquity on comment threads like this. It’s the way that it illustrates just how impossible it is for victims to live their lives to the fullest.
I mean, here Becky is critiqued for normal everyday small talk. Is held to a standard that demands invisibility and non-existence on the off chance that everyone will forget she even exists. Now we can imagine the real-life people held to that standard and how unbearable that becomes.
And how it just adds extra suffering and misery to individuals who have already been hit hard by life and oppression. It’s understandable, it’s natural, it’s socially supported to blame the victim. It’s reflexive. But that’s why it’s important for people to note it and double check themselves about what exactly they’re critiquing and how much exactly it’s on the person they’re dumping it on. And how unequally it is applied to the victimizer.
So if anything goes wrong it’s all Hank’s fault and Joyce is now sadder which is Hank’s fault too. But here in a situation without Hank Joyce is fine. Nothing but the inclusion of Becky would potentially make this situation worse. And she has every right to do so to test her boundries. But if this goes south, Joyce will have to protect her, possibly lose her father, and with that another piece of her life for Becky.
Becky needs to cut the fat. Joyce is being ripped raw.
Becky has already been ripped raw don’t minimize what she’s lost dude. She’s lost her home, her school, her entire family, she’s been rejected by her first love. She’s lost damn near everything she’s ever known or cared about except Joyce.
Oh yes. That’s all true. It also doesn’t make anything I said any less true. It’s a fucked up situation for her but that doesn’t make how that type of drama affects people around her any less valid. It may be impolite and selfish but, helping people with their problems is emotionally and sometimes even physically exhausting.
Joyce is Becky’s friend and would do anything for her.
“So if anything goes wrong it’s all Hank’s fault” – YES!
“and Joyce is now sadder” – that’s not how I interpret her face on the last panel.
“But if this goes south, Joyce will have to protect her, possibly lose her father, and with that another piece of her life for Becky.” – Hank is part of Becky’s life too. The other option here would be Becky not seeing him again?
And if Becky just showing up and saying hi is enough to cause Joyce to lose her father, then it is something that would happen sooner or later no matter what else Becky did or didn’t.
“Becky needs to cut the fat.” – Becky has no fat left to be cut.
Mhm. In the long term this is something that would eventually come up. And it might be fine and it might not. I’m not saying Becky showing up isn’t fine but maybe part of the fact that she’s kinda not supposed to be there and the fact that Joyce and him just met back up makes this inopportune. I’m not saying she shouldn’t have shown up at all. At the very least it means she rejected any opportunity for a safety net. If he doesn’t approve, Joyce has to make that choice right here and now. Can’t go home to her mother’s cooking, can’t let her last time being with her parents be even remotely enjoyable before she has to cut them out too. It’s ripping off a band-aid for sure, but with how much all this recent drama has affected Joyce, I’d say that may do a lot more damage to her than you’re making it out.
* Joyce’s parents know the confrontation with Toedad happened there, and that Joyce had contact with Becky before and after the incident. She being around there is already not a secret for them.
* Hank is clearly doing things more quickly than expected (see previous comics for how they expected him to show up later), and the two of them were already walking out of the building and talking about hitting the road. So if Becky wanted to talk to Hank, it had to be now or days, weeks, months later with a chance of never again.
* I’m never saying it wouldn’t hurt Joyce. But, again, if Becky just being visible and audible to Hank (and that was just a “hi there” for those who know Becky) is enough to cause a total parental relationship meltdown, I don’t see how Joyce would even reach her house without it happening anyway at some point in the car trip.
Again, if all the little nothing Becky did here is enough to do any damage, then I don’t see how going back home would be remotely enjoyable to Joyce anyway.
Joyce would probably have skirted the issue, to be perfectly honest. Sure it may have come up but a simple “Mom, I don’t want to talk about that now. Change the subject” would’ve stopped the conversation for the most part. And while ignoring an issue is still pretty bad it probably would’ve helped her peace of mind a bit more.
But assuming Becky is coming along since Joyce did say she could, I still say I would’ve given Joyce a bit more of a heads up so she could weave the conversation to a place where she was comfortable. Joyce is now uncomfortable and taken aback. I’m not arguing that Becky’s just plain old wrong. If you know me you know I don’t believe in that sort of thing. I’m saying the way things are playing out could potentially have a very negative endpoint and if it does I will not look back at this as the best possible way to start the interaction.
Joyce has predicted that the purpose of the parents taking her home now is to make sure she stays within the borders of her normative Good Christian role. She’s been super nervous about this.
I don’t see “everything would have been fine if Becky just wasn’t there” here at all.
As others have said, Joyce is going to have to protect Becky and possibly lose her parents anyway. They’re taking her home because of Toedad’s attempt to kidnap Becky. Becky is going to come up over the weekend. Whether Hank sees Becky now or not doesn’t change a thing.
The only thing it might do is provoke the confrontation here, on Joyce’s ground, with her supporters, rather than back home where she’s isolated.
Maybe it’s because my life isn’t a battleground, but that sounds awful. I don’t want the first (or second) thing to happen after seeing one of my parents is to immediately have some sort of confrontation. There’s a gamble that it could turn out either way but for someone as emotionally unstable as Joyce has been, do you think that’s the best thing? There’s a good chance she could just completely shut down emotionally. Joyce may have supporters here but that’s not why she’s meeting him and that didn’t really seem to be what she wanted out of this weekend. And letting her warm into that possibility is now a luxury she does not have. It’s gonna happen right here and now like it or not.
It is awful. It’s all awful. It’s going to be awful no matter what Becky does.
Joyce didn’t want this weekend. She’s been terrified of what she knows is coming. In a situation like this, you don’t “warm to the possibility” of the fight, you just dread it and try to put it off cause you don’t want to deal with it and the anticipation keeps getting worse the longer you put it off.
And would it be better for her to completely shut down emotionally, if that’s going to happen, back home with her parents pressuring her to repent and reject Becky or here where her friends will actually take her side?
Eh, Decent point. I’m not really of the impression that what Becky did was wrong or right. However I think it’s going to have some consequences and we’ll have to see how those pan out.
“Maybe it’s because my life isn’t a battleground”
YES. That is exactly why. Now please, please, take a moment and listen to the people whose lives ARE dependent on fighting this battle.
The thing is, people are getting upset at Becky for “provoking Hank”. However when we look at today’s strip the only thing Becky has done is to show up and make fun of Joyce’s eating habits. (Okay, making fun of that is rude. But a lot of people are saying that just by a showing up in view of Hank, a man Becky has known for most her life, is being provocative. Scratch the surface and you get victim blaming very quickly. It’s not on Hank to not be a bigot. It’s on Becky to not give him a reason to lash out at her and Joyce. I’m really going to have to disagree with my last two sentences there)
To address your comment, no one is saying Becky is perfect or that her only character trait that matters is her sexuality. There’s people saying it was awful for Becky to talk to Hank, and the reason it was awful is because she’s gay. Her sexuality is being brought up by her defenders because it’s relevant to the topic at hand.
I think it’s more that (from those people) this time is supposed to be completely for Joyce, and she needs some sort of security and familiarity very badly right now, and some space. Sure, she’s going home, but look at their body language; she seemed to be really finding comfort in her parent, even knowing there would be fractious stuff later. She would have probably handled that in a tactful way, because Joyce wants to keep her family and I don’t think she’d hate them overall if they proved inflexible on the gay friend. Becky took out the comfort and re-introduced to Joyce’s face exactly one of the things that’s giving her so much stress. It’s just not very nice, when Joyce has been so quick to challenged herself for Becky. But maybe provoked by the Dorothy thing earlier? Like, random impulse to trumpet “me and Joyce! I’m the one she’s going to stand by!” after the Dotty thing.
Did you miss the part where Joyce was super anxious and irritable and terrified of this visit? This is not “security and familiarity” for her. Leaving her alone right now is not helping her. This visit was going to go south sooner or later, and better it happen now, in Joyce’s safe place, with her peers nearby and watching, than at home in her family’s and her community’s territory (especially if Becky isn’t around)
Nah, but she wants things to be as they were. Remember her phone call with her mom? She was starting to tear up when she thought she’d be getting unconditional love and acceptance and focus on how she felt. She got hella upset (for good reason) immediately when her mom started defending Ross, but I think she seems to be wanting what she knows, even if there’s likely to be a showdown either way.
Also, I think that within the scope of fundamentalism, the Browns must be decent people. Joyce is a surprisingly well-adjusted and emotionally balanced young woman, and I think some credit must be due to the attitudes she absorbed growing up. It’s not like the bad of the situation means there aren’t other complexities and other positives, which Johce would be used to focusing on.
‘The Browns must be well-adjusted people’?
Go back and read their earlier appearances. Hank, maybe, but Carol? Not even vaguely.
‘[D]ecent’, not ‘well adjusted’…what I get for quoting via eyeballing. Same argument, either way.
I shouldn’t say reasonable. I do not think that a person who can be so single-minded is necessarily going to be reasonable in even trifling, non-religious daily affairs (like a lid stuck on a jam jar, or dealing with disagreement over simple matters). Strike reasonable, keep the rest.
If I may make another correction? 🙂 I think you may have over-looked that I wasn’t saying it as an overall statement. WITHIN the scope of FUNDAMENTALISM. Hank and Carol have compassion and innate decency, we’ve seen that in how they react to their children and people within their “safe” circle, like their initial rxn to Dotty’s parents. However, they don’t let their compassion and innate decency override an ingrained bigotry. Being a fundamentalist Christian doesn’t preclude having the capacity to be a reasonable person, within the bounds of the limitations posed. Relative to the larger population, of course they’re not well-adjusted or decent. But, I was not comparing them to the population.
On your aside… making fun of Joyce’s eating apparently is only rude when *Becky* does it. When it’s Hank, it is a “perfect father-daughter bonding moment” that Becky just ruined, or so they say.
Well yeah, he’s a straight man, so clearly that makes it okay. /sarcasm
Sorry I didn’t mean to imply that.
Though we wouldn’t have a punchline if neither of them did, and in all honesty I don’t think Joyce gets too upset at gentle ribbing about her eating habits. I was just trying to come up with any sort of explanation other than “How dare Becky make Hank acknowledge that she exists” for all the vitriol she’s getting today.
Oh no, I totally support your post, it was very reasonable. I just wanted to give a quick quip about that comment.
Its *NOT* your fault. Its not *Your* fault. Its not your *FAULT*.
You didnt do anything wrong, ( to deserve what you were told ).
**They Did** when they did that.
I know compartmentalization when I hear it. I know where these thoughts come from, because I had them. I know where they come from. I know where they lead, and I know what it takes to abolish them.
You dont have to feel bad about who you are. Or apologize for it.
You dont have to minimize it, dis- integrate your sexuality from your personality, to be treated with the respect you deserve.
( And Neither does Becky or Carla )
Straight people never say “im not my heterosexuality. I’m more than my desire to have romantic relationships with the opposite sex” This never ever happens!* In fact, All Of Pop culture constantly says the opposite message.
You may have found a way to have self-respect by disavowing your sexuality and its importance. But its a victim-path. And its ALWAYS temporary.
What happens, when that doesnt work?
The worse part is , that arrow is held in place by the person with it.
NO, all gays arent victims. But most are victims of thoughts just like these, at some point.
Its not your fault. Who ever put it on you, was wrong.
*OK ; Maybe …James Franco
actually i think the reason why heterosexuals dont have to say “im not my sexuality” because no one ever treats them as if they are a sexuality. since their sexuality is the msot common one, a hetero is seen as a person whereas a gay person will be seen as gay. not a person, just gay. wether theyre nice, awful, annoying, quiet, self centered. theyre not a person, theyre defined by their sexuality. and now i see that even people who support them does this. and *i* dont want to be. i want to be just a person. a person who is gay, yes. but still a person. whenever i do something, i dont want someone to bring up that im gay. because it doesnt matter, cause im a person. what matters is if im happy, sad, crazy, disgusting or quiet. not if im gay. im myself and i wanna be seen as my whole self, not just a part of me.and i treat others that way too
i also think people should respond to comments based on that particular comments contains, not based on all the other comments.
Hey, if you got a problem, say it to my avatar.
Speaking of which, I really like your avatar. But I haven’t read the comic, I’ve just seen the Nameless World music video. >_>
Zombillenium is very worth it. 😀
dude i wasnt even talking about you?
So…
…what are the two foods?
Macaroni
Cheese
Separated, I’m assuming.
Well, sauces are different. Food can mix with sauce. Two different foods, though, with two different sauces, most definitely cannot touch. I mean, imagine if the sauces MIXED?? *restrains gorge*
Which is why it’s so weird that her other favorite food is Tacos.
Which she carefully separates before eating.
Well, I guess they were gonna have to address the elephant in the room sooner or later. Probably best to get this out of the way before Joyce is stuck in a car with him. Once they’re on the highway it’s not gonna be a simple matter to just tell him to buzz off and walk home.
Yeah. Makes me wonder how much of Becky’s motivation here is wanting to check on Hank before letting him get Joyce into a car and take her away. It’s not like that could mean anything to Becky.
If he’s going to flip out, get him to do it here where others can interfere – not just for her safety, but Joyce’s.
May also be a part of why she wants to go with – if he takes Joyce away, maybe he won’t bring her back?
Most of that probably not thought out consciously, but still driving her reactions.
doubt it tbh? like honestly to me, here Becky just reads as Desperately Reaching Out. it could well be i’m just projecting, but i don’t think a lot of thought went into this, i think this is more impulse.
Becky is the pink elephant in the room. She will attempt to stop aany chance of Joyce (under maybe parental influence) to flush underwater anything of what happened. Becky is a dutiful reminder 😉
Nice of Becky to toss a live grenade into this heartwarming little father-daughter reunion. I guess she wants to make sure Joyce’s dad knows she’s here and not going away. But that won’t do any good if Joyce aspirates from sushi-face…
Unexpected becklash. Have returned to say ‘yay Becky hooray Becky yes Becky be Becky’
That is all, thank you
So did a while mess of people forget that Becky and Joyce’s dad have known each other for most of their lives? (Remember Joyce’s “Took us to Six Flags” line about Toe Dad? They see/saw each other’s parents as adults who cared about them.) That Becky just went through a highly traumatic event with her own father? Is it so hard to believe that she would think that since Joyce came around to accepting her that Mr. Brown would too?
I don’t understand* why so many people are reading this as deliberately malicious. She waited until they were sure Joyce and her dad were OK before she walked over. Maybe she assumed that because they weren’t arguing that meant he was OK with Joyce supporting her.
TL,DR: I think it is way more likely that Becky went over there because she thought things were OK and hoping to have someone else she was close to from home accept her than that she went over to deliberately mess things up.
I wish they were. But sadly, the reality is that they’re probably doing this because she’s been through all that and so it’s important to make her the bad guy so they can stop feeling bad and awkward about societal homophobia and things like Leslie’s “sweet lesbian facts” and instead make it all about Becky, the bull in the china shop who makes all her friends’ lives worse with her “drama” and all.
It neatly cuts out the bit that itches on privilege and thinking more deeply on real-world circumstances.
I feel that even if I didn’t like the kind of person Becky or by an extension Carla were, it would be nigh impossible for me to make an argument towards it because people would paint it as some kind of Homophobia/Transphobia. Meanwhile I can hate Danny for incredibly superficial things that aren’t even his fault because he’s Danny. Hell sometimes I blame him for things that happen to him instead of that he had any involvement in.
I’m not trying to undermine your opinion, but I’ve noticed that from the way your perspective is framed, I CAN’T dislike these characters without also having a disdain for gay people. Even if there’s other gay characters I DO like. While I don’t necessarily dislike Becky, any sort of criticism seems to be met with “No, you just hate gays and are taking it out on poor sweet Becky”. And while that may be true for some of us, it certainly isn’t an absolute truth.
I do not understand where you are getting this. I have seen no sign that anyone thinks it’s okay to “hate Danny for incredibly superficial things that aren’t even his fault.” I would object to that, too. You dislike someone, you need a good reason. (You can jokingly dislike someone, but that’s not what’s going on here.)
And that’s the issue here. These people don’t have a good reason.They are reaching. They have decided Becky is this horribly selfish person, ignoring everything else we know about her. How can they do that, unless they are looking for a reason to hate her?
No one freaked out when they called Becky a bit impulsive. No one freaked out when they said she was being a bit clueless. People freaked out when they started making Becky out to be some horrible friend to Joyce.
And the same went with Carla, really. They saw Mary doing these horrible things, but Carla was the shitty person. No one freaked out when they said they didn’t think she should be skating in the halls. They freaked out when people tried to argue that Mary was justified in how she treated Carla.
And, hell, there are still a lot of people arguing that Carla is an asshole, even though it makes no sense to me. She skated in the halls. And she didn’t back down when someone was being a jerk to her. Why does she have to be perfect, but people like Joyce just fine despite all her flaws?
Becky has even fewer flaws, being a genuinely nice and selfless person. But people still seem to be flaw-hunting.
Well Carla is an asshole. It’s just that she’s lost mind share.
I’m perfectly capable of not liking a character because their traits rub me the wrong way. In the Danny situation there would be a handful of situations maybe where someone’d say “Well to Danny’s credit…” He’s fun to hate, like Justin Beiber or Rebecca Black. But Becky’s gay. If I don’t like sidecuts, if I don’t like her attitude, if I find her annoying, people will immediately assume it’s because she’s gay that I hate this thing.
In the Carla situation, Mary is clearly in the wrong. But it’s not as if her and Mary weren’t actively antagonizing one another. I don’t think what Mary did is right but I also think Carla’s a jerk. Most people I saw argued both sides were being different degrees of unpleasant. But once Mary dropped the Boy-bomb, it became innapropriate to act like any event that took place beforehand was at all attributed to Carla. The argument grew from “Carla didn’t deserve that” to “Carla is blameless”. And that is a line of reasoning I disagree with. A person is more than just their discrimination. But people tend to look at these situations objectively.
You can’t say “Damnit Becky”. You have to say “Damnit Gay Girl! as if the only reason you could disapprove of this is that you just hate gay people” If I hate a character’s actions and didn’t have a “Good Reason” the defense would be less than if I hated a Character’s actions that happened to be a persecuted minority without a “good reason”. I’m not perfect and attributes that I find good or bad may not align with what yours. And so I might hate something about a character you really love or be indifferent to. And you might say I’m reaching because you don’t at all share my mindset. You might not get pulled out of a movie when characters are talking in front of an obvious green screen, but some people may find it ruins the experience. Doesn’t mean I’m racist against star wars prequels (although I am).
The way I view the last arc with Carla is that trying to say “Carla is blameless” does a disservice to her character, because it carries the implication that the reason Carla doesn’t deserve to be misgendered is that she’s That Perfect Girl and that there’s a hypothetical situation where she would, rather than misgendering fundamentally being an act of violence upon the trans community, and never justified regardless of any kind of action. It doesn’t matter what Carla did, because she doesn’t deserve to be victim to a hate crime.
I agree. I like that Carla ain’t just a sweet pure girl cuz that’d just
1. Paint Trans people as objects and not people.
2. Paint Transphobic people as satan, the devil, Beelzebub and Mephistopheles all wrapped into one.
The fact that Mary doesn’t just show up and go “back to the boy dorm, dick” shows that people aren’t just constantly being hateful. It’s not conductive for humanity. She’d begrudgingly accept her until she’s forced to tell her true feelings.
The comment is pretty awful but had Carla not pushed her to saying it I feel the whole situation wouldn’t have the same context. It would’ve just been “look at this awful girl. ain’t she evil” Rather than “Trans people are people too and sometimes they’re assholes. Doesn’t mean you can just say that kind of thing.” In the same way that when I’m acting like a piece of shit it’d be pretty fucked up to call me a nigger.
OTOH, given that Mary eventually did reveal her true feelings, it’s hard to think they weren’t coloring her reactions to Carla all along.
Yeah, Carla’s can be a jerk and she was riding Mary, but Mary’s reactions to every step were stronger than justified. Stronger than to someone else? Stronger than if she hadn’t know Carla was trans? Impossible to say for sure, but I think it’s likely.
You are capable of disliking someone because they rub you the wrong way. But, if those things are something that “isn’t their fault”–which is what you said–then it’s no different than hating a gay person because they are gay. which also isn’t their fault. And while you are free to do either, it’s no less wrong.
I see no sign that “in Danny’s defense” means that people hate Danny, but the opposite. They were defending him. And the “hatred” of Justin Bieber and Rebecca Black is usually playful. You’re just joking around, not actually saying horrible things about them (or, in Black’s case, sending death threats!).
It is untrue that you can’t say “Damn it, Becky” or similar, as multiple people did.
The problems only started when people started saying real hateful things about her. It’s when they made up bullshit about how she’s always been selfish or never cared about anyone but herself or has to always be the center of attention or other shit that just isn’t true. That’s what I meant by “reaching”–making shit up.
The same thing happened with Carla. And, it happened before the “boy” drop. Itsame (or some similar name) was trying to argue that it was okay that Mary glued Carla’s skate wheels. People were absolutely livid over that. I considered writing a script that give us a block list on the site, just to keep people from freaking out, but then Itsame stopped posting or changed their name in disgrace.
Yes, things changed once Mary dropped the bomb, but that was only because it became very, very clear who the real asshole was. It became very clear that what Carla did was really minor in the light of the horrible thing Mary did.
I really loathe the persecution argument. No, you’re not being held back because you can’t say certain hateful things. Yes, people are more aware of them when you they are said about gay or trans people, but it’s still wrong, either way.
You want to playfully hate Danny, have at it. You spew hateful filth about him, and I see it, I’ll call you out the same way I would about any other character. You can say it’s just fiction, but as you helpfully revealed when you mentioned Bieber and Black, what someone says about fictional people they will often say about real ones. It’s probably the reason for the site rules.
I don’t get malicious from this either. Oblivious, maybe, but not malicious.
Two thoughts:
-After dealing with her own father, Becky’s not afraid anymore.
-Hey, it’s not telling Joyce’s mother, “Hail, Satan.”
Hail Satan, Hail Satan!
Hail Satan hail Satan, hail Satan. Hail Satan?
HAIL SATAN!
I mean this in the nicest possible way: God dammit, Becky!
This is the same God dammit, Noah, that I use when my dorkus friend says something really stupid in front of my parents.
Lookit them peeking around the corner together. That’s the classic “Scooby-Do Stack”.
I’m sure the rest of the group would be like “BECKY, DON’T!”, but honestly….this needs to happen.
With all respect, to people saying Becky “isn’t pulling a Walky”… she totally _is_. This isn’t to downplay what the character’s gone through. But the situation is, honestly, not about her and what she’s going through. It’s about a father (an apparently decent one, imagine that) and his daughter, who he knows has been through major trauma (and a lot of other culture-shocks and changes) in the less-than-a-month-or-two that she’s been at college. They, basically, need a minute. Do a bit of ‘we’re still your family’, recharge those batteries.
I’ve had friends who literally said things like ‘I don’t go anywhere if it doesn’t shock people’. Which is just as much a problem as cravenly seeking approval. Becky has people to be with for a bit while this pans out, but there’s really no difference between that “and she made this appalled expression- just like NOW, from me showing up!”
It’s like she’s chasing the dragon about being the center of attention, more than “hi, person I’ve known all my life.”.
This feels dramatically unsupported by the text.
Given the skipping-over replies, putting-words-in-the-mouth and “oh, people disagree with me? They do that because they’re homophobes” conclusion-jumping with this comments page today, “unsupported by the text” is not so much of a clincher as one might think.
But it is. Even if you were correct, and not grossly perverting what was actually said in all the other comments, what other people say or do has no bearing on whether your argument is correct.
The point is, there is nothing in the text that justifies the interpretation that Becky is someone who goes around trying to shock people or make them feel bad. It’s completely antithetical to her character. She’s the most consistently selfless person in the entire comic.
There is nothing in the text that justifies the idea that she just had to jump in and become the center of attention. And seeing things that aren’t there often makes people think you’re bringing other prejudices to your interpretation.
Yes.
“apparently decent” is by comparison to Ross & Blaine? Or just that he didn’t openly attack in the first few phrases of conversation?
Even her mother on the phone got some words of TLC in before she turned to excusing Toedad. I’m sure they both think of themselves as good supportive parents, but that doesn’t mean they are.
If Hank is “decent” he’ll treat Becky showing herself positively, even if he’s awkward. The fact that he apparently wanted to leave without seeing Becky, who he knows is around, says to me that is apparently NOT “decent”. Becky needs him, badly. And what could be better for Joyce than her dad accepting “out” Becky.
Middle aged straight white guy here.
The homo- and trans phobia of some of the comments surprises me not at all but the people who just don’t like Becky because she’s “obnoxious ” does. People like her are friendship gold. Interaction by interaction… Look how she treats people.
Oh boy.
This is actually a very smart move from Becky and very good for Joyce.
First, Becky isn’t inserting herself into anything. She is the very center of this, whether she is physically present or not. Standing aside will not make her parents issues with Joyce go away.
Second, Hank isn’t being a “good father” in this scene. Hank is avoiding discussing the problem until he has Joyce back at her childhood home, with her mother and him and their bible, filled with comfort food and DENIED ANY SUPPORT FROM HER FRIENDS. They don’t want to push this until they have Joyce somewhere where they have the authority, where Joyce is used to acquiescing to them. Remember, the last time they tried to push their authority on Joyce at the school, Joyce stood up to them to defend her friend. They don’t want that to happen again.
Becky is pushing things so that Hank reveals his feelings too early. In a place where Joyce has been doing her growing up lately. If she can get Hank to react badly to Becky, then Joyce will go on the defensive and she will go home prepared for the fight rather than being blindsided just when she is comfortable.
This “Daddy/daughter” time is fake and Becky is going to break the facade before Joyce falls too far into it.
*slow applause*
Finally someone in this comment section puts it into words properly
Yes, at the very least there’s a good chance that’s the plan. Whether it’s explicit or not, or just thought of in “family business” terms, I don’t know. Maybe even they’re mostly thinking in terms of making sure their baby is ok and giving her some TLC, but if their fundamental attitude towards the whole situation is still going to drive that ugly confrontation and without interference it’s still going to happen with Joyce away from support and back where she’s more likely to fall under their authority.
Becky exploding that now is a good thing, however planned or not planned it may be.
It’s also possible Hank will react openly and well, accepting Becky without reservations. But I don’t expect it.
The only way this goes bad is if it was always going to go bad. Better it do so here and now than later.
The fact that Joyce’s sister is still hiding does not give me great hope for Hank being accepting of Becky.
Well, it does happen that people are afraid of coming out of a closet and then when they do nothing happens and it turns out their family is perfectly accepting towards their own members.
Sometimes.
Rarely.
One can dream, okay?
Sometimes people’s families know and accept that they are gay even before they do themselves.
Yeah the people acting like Becky wasn’t going to come up during this visit and it was just gonna be happy relaxing family time are kidding themselves. This was going to go to shit at some point it was inevitable and the best case is it does so before Joyce is isolated from her support network.
They seriously thought this would be happy family fun time? Just what comic do they think they’re reading?
Exactly. I hate confrontation, but I hate feeling trapped even more. Better to get this over with while she still has support available.
I’m sorry but I feel there is something very pessimistic about this point of view. Like Hank is some sort of mastermind luring Joyce into a sense of security so he can take her home and throw the weight of their family on her where she’s alone and vulnerable, when he can just be a father reuniting with his daughter after a few weeks. Becky can just be a girl saying hello to her friend’s dad and not a preemptive attempt at unrooting a secret agenda. This isn’t an elaborate game of chess with Joyce’s soul at stake. We’ll discover Hank’s opinions in time but until then give his character some credit. Give Joyce some credit.
I agree. Regarding everyone’s family as The Enemy is pretty reductionist. I mean, The Boss clearly knows his demo by making every parental figure so far into some sort of thing to fight against, but what are the realistic odds that everyone’s family is conniving/bigoted/useless? Also, not crazy about acting like Joyce’s ‘support system’ does not include the people that raised her but they’re instead some sort of hostile cult.
That is way more italic than I meant. Sorry. Would edit if I could.
Well, they were apparently in the same church as her crazy dad. She knows well enough what that church preaches and whether or not it’s a cult, it’s certainly hostile.
Maybe not everyone’s family, but can you really blame Becky for not trusting Joyce’s parents who seemed nice, but were steeped in the same dogma as Ross? Especially if Joyce shared her conversation with her mom.
When it comes to defending Joyce’s support of Becky & changed opinions on homosexuality, her parents are the opposition, not support.
More generally, Dina’s folks are nice, as are Dorothy’s. Most of the other’s have their flaws & issues, but aren’t outright villains. We’ve focused more on the bad ones, since that’s where the drama & conflict come from.
Let’s see: Leaving alone Ross and Toedad, we have Walky and Sal’s folks (stageparents who blatantly play favorites, if you go by Sal), Danny’s folks actively run him down in the same terms that readers who hate him do, Ruth’s “sir” we’ve only seen in her reactions to but she was clearly in terror of his disapproval so yay, Robin (not a parent, but Roz’s family of note) sees Roz as a tool for her career and that’s about it, and so on. I don’t recall Billie’s family, but my money is on them not being a picnic either.
Dina parents and Dorothy’s (mom? I only remember her mother existing) are pretty much the exception. It’s not one-note… maybe two-note. It is what it is, I read it anyway, but I also don’t delude myself that Joyce’s dad isn’t going to be depicted that way.
Billie’s parents are no shows who throw money at her instead of love. Probably a solid 5/10 on the parenting scale.
This comic shows both of Dorothy’s parents where they explain to Joyce’s parents how they raised her areligiously http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/areligious/
We have also briefly seen Sierra’s parents who from all accounts seem to be very nice and chill people. Also her father Reno did attempted to stop Blaine and defuse the situation when he was chasing after Amber in the dorms seen here: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/blood/
We also saw Mike’s parents, and the only downside we saw of them we saw was his mother trying to hug everyone (especially Sarah).
Counter to my previous posts there is another set of bad parents we should mention; Ethan’s parents Naomi and Saul. Especially his mother Naomi, Who in her first appearance blames Amber for turning Ethan gay because she was terrible at dating him. As seen here: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/mrss/
Later when talking to Ethan she calls him she tells him that he “became a disappointment” and demands that he immediately has sex with Joyce so his confusion will be over. That terribleness is displayed in this comic: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/placate/
Then in the very next comic his father suggests that he should have sex with women in the hopes that one day he might like it. Implying that Ethan should stay in the closet and pretend, which fueled speculation that is father is also closeted.
Sorry for the multiple posts but I’m on my lunch break and it takes time to research and eat at the same time.
That advice from Saul is something that Mike told him he could have done if hed stayed in the closet. Mike almost certainly has met Ethan’s parents yes? Mike almost certainly sized them up pretty accurately, yes? Mike might understand Ethan’s parents better than Ethan does, yes?
I imagine that Mike would have been slightly less involved than Amber in dealing with fallout of Ethan’s coming out, especially since Ethan seems very close to both of them. I could see Ethan going to Mike as someone who would listen and not act/react or try to smooth things over, so he has probably heard similar things Saul has said either first or secondhand.
From what I remember from Shortpacked! and here in DOA, Mike doesn’t target people when they are at their absolute lowest (and that’s where Ethan would have been over the summer) so he could have been an okay sounding board.
Mike suggested that Ethan hide his sexuality.
Apparently he meant that as a joke but it was still super fucked up.
SFU, for sure, without qualification, without redeeming qualities that I’ve seen. And the following isnt meant to suggest otherwise. And none of the following is intended to suggest otherwise. From what youve said on several occassions i can understand why none of it is of interest to you. But i find some of the things that Willis has done with Mike very interesting, even fascinating — notwithstanding that hes an SFUA-hole.
In this case i think what Mike told Ethan wasnt that he should go back in the closet, it was that he should have stayed in the closet, even though it would have required joyless sex with women, because he could still contribute to Society — Ethan jumped on that, saying something like, wasnt Abraham Lincoln gay — and it would have been a better life than Ethan had at that moment, having come out and ending up with a “blond asshole” as his only friend. I Think That Mike was being sarcastic. That was SFUd. If he was a friend then he should have tried to help Ethan adjust to being out. OTOH, Ethan took what Mike said seriously. And then Joyce came over while Mike and Ethan were talking and Ethan ducked back into the closet for Joyce; Mike went WOW! as if he couldn’t believe what Ethan had just done; Ethan said to Mike “Don’t judge me.” I think that Mike didn’t intend to convince Ethan to go back in the closet: he said that he should have stayed there, but as if that door had closed behind Ethan, and he seemed/acted surprised that Ethan tried to present to Joyce as hetero. Still SFU, still a horrible friend, if any friend at all (Ethan originally told Joyce that Mike didn’t really have friends, just people he tolerated, and from Ethan’s point of view Mike had some value in very small doses. None of which changes that Mike is a Super Asshole. And I don’t believe that he intends good by it. (The only good I can recall coming out of one of his Mikings was when he went to Gender Studies and made Dorothy realize that she was treating Walky badly and she acted on that.) BUT Mike has been an interesting character as Willis has used him: Turbanous’ comment today made me realize that what Mike told Ethan was the same as his father told him, namely, emulate papa.
I think that Naomi should blame herself for not teaching Amber and Joyce how to “satisfy a man”, like she knows how to keep Ethans dad happy and contented. Maybe I should let myself out after that one ….
I wouldn’t argue that Joyce’s parents can’t be part of her support system, but I would argue that they would only support her in something that matches their beliefs.
It’s also important to remember that we’ve met her parents before and they tried to force her to stay away from Dorothy. I seriously doubt they intend to respect her decision to support Becky.
I kind of agree that it’s all less planned and calculated than some make it sound, but that’s still what’s going on. Planned or not.
I doubt Hank’s thinking of it that way. Just wants to get his girl home to the bosom of her family, so he can help her recover and understand why Ross did what he did, even if he went to far, he had good intentions.
And Becky’s not making a calculated move, but somewhere between saying hello to her friend’s dad and testing the waters, because she sure as hell can’t trust without checking.
It’s a shame that one person has tainted the opinion of others so much. Until now Hank has proven to be a parent who cares about his children’s happiness above even his own personal opinions. Ever since Ross showed up everyone assumes the Brown’s will act the same because they came from the same church and Joyce’s mom seemed to sympathize with him in a brief phone conversation. Go back and read the freshman family weekend strip and ask yourself if you think Ross would act the same way. They probably have differing opinions, they might not like Becky or think she’s misguided and needs help, but I doubt they’ll disown Joyce for being friends with her, or pull Joyce from IU, or show up with a rifle saying they’ll die for her or whatever the nightmare scenario is.
No, I don’t think they’ll be nearly as bad as Ross. But that’s a mighty low bar.
They probably won’t disown Joyce or pull her from school. They absolutely will pressure her to reject and condemn Becky’s “lifestyle”.
As I said above, the decent human thing to do when you find out your daughter’s best friend, who you’ve know for their whole life and likely half-raised is orphaned and homeless is to take them in. Support them and help them as much as you can. I knew people who did that, back in my college days, in similar, if less drastic circumstances.
That there’s basically no chance of that is a sign of how damaging this kind of religion is.
Hank doesn’t have to be a “mastermind” to have wanted to stack the deck in his favour. Parents do it all the time, waiting till they are together to talk to the kids and present a united front. Or when a boss brings you into his office to enhance his position of authority.
It’s a normal part of an argument/discussion in a lot of cases.
^ “game of chess” … If you hadn’t said it, I would have.
*slowclap*
And as an outside possibility, if after all, the Browns are wonderful people and do their best to help Joyce through this with love, respect and realization for her need for change – then Becky’s presence won’t be a problem. In fact, IF they are wonderful people like that they will NEED Becky anyway, because they will need to hug Becky too and say something… something like this:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/pit/
Zactly! Hank should give Becky a big hug for the sake of HIS immortal soul.
Becky is purposefully testing the waters for Joyce, before she gets in the car and winds up in La Porte with no way back. She is not being obliviously obnoxious, but purposefully obnoxious, to find out how Hank is inclined to deal with the situation before Joyce is out of reach.
In that case, it would be non-predictably funny for Hank to just go “Oh, it’s Becky. Hi, Becky! Well… traffic’s not gonna wait for us. See you when we get back.” rather than be horrified or whatever. And then moving on. (While he does owe her acceptance and courtesy, that’s about what he owes her- he’s a dad, not her dad, you know?)
Becky’s been pretty close to him for all her life, much like Joyce was close to Becky’s dad. Remember when Joyce’s parents called her to tell her to tattle on Becky if she’s around? Becky’s not a stranger, he can’t just ignore her. If he does, well… That’s not funny, and I doubt Joyce would even agree to come with him without her in that case.
Hoo boy… This ain’t gonna end well, no matter how it ends.
I read the text in the background of the last panel as click click click and I thought she as snapping her fingers all sassy-like.
I’m a long time reader, first-time commenter, so I’m not assuming that anything I can add is insightful – hell, it’s probably misguided – but for whatever it’s worth: I had the same *sharpinhalecringe* reaction to Becky here, and it’s not the first time, at all. But then, I thought about it: nothing she does here is wrong, inherently. In her mind, she might even be trying to *ease* tension. Sure, the rest of the group is thinking, “this is going great! She’s smiling, he’s smiling; one big happy! Nothing to worry about.” But there are two things to keep in mind.
First, she KNOWS Joyce. She might be smiling, but everything she knows, let alone what we know, says Joyce is NOT okay. The smile is nervous, at best. She’s an extrovert, so her way of handling discomfort is to be herself, and encourage everyone else to do the same. Which leads to the next point: personally, any annoyance I had is because, as an introvert (maybe even AvPD), it’s not how I would handle things. Not because I don’t want to, because I CAN’T. I am jealous of Becky, at the core, for being so much better at expression and talking to new people and not worrying about her personality. I won’t speak for anyone, but I doubt I am the only person with hangups.
Haha, I’m a massive introvert but very much ADHD (late diagnosis, didn’t grow up styling my personality around it). It wears me out, since I tend to be impulsive, and though I love to spend weeks on my own it’s highly likely that I’d pull a Becky in a scenario like this and just interrupt.
Yup. I have anxiety, and I often get HUGE anxious response to characters’ relatively innocuous actions just because they would have terrified ME. Once I figured out what my problem was – for most of my life I didn’t even know anxiety was a thing that existed as a mental disorder – it became much easier for me to separate actual objective criticism of characters’ actions from my own ‘oh my god no’ recoiling.
Becky is… a big example of that, yes. I love her, but nearly everything she does makes me do a double take.
She’s seriously great though.
Seriously, does anyone here have zero diagnoses, professional or selfies? Is following DoA like self-medicating?
I’m sure there are plenty of people here who qualify. It’s just hard to spot them because it’d be rude to drop into the comments and say, “I’ve got no problems to deal with whatsoever. Yay!”, you know?
Sundaes Child: congrats on your first comment! I hope that you enjoyed it. But I must say that it strikes me as interesting and insightful. 😉
Aw Becky. Seems like it’s intentionally leading up to being weird but I hope he just still acts like her best friend’s dad that she’s known all her life.
Up until reading the comments section today I was also under the impression that she was coming with them. I misread that strip a week ago about offering to go with Joyce and when she packed clothes the other day. At first I was thinking “Wow, this weekend is going to be aaaaaaward”.
I sure hope she IS coming with them. Most of comment section seems to be absurdly oblivious of most context to this… Becky’s presence would help Joyce a lot.
And, so now it’s confirmed that Joyce had been lying to her parents about Becky, as if Joyce hasn’t had enough stress in her life so far.
Keeping fingers crossed her Dad isn’t going to go over the edge seeing Becky there.
I don’t think she has been. Certainly not that it’s been confirmed.
We know she told them in the phone message after the incident: “Becky is here. She is going to stay here, with me.”
Not telling them she got a haircut isn’t lying. That is the only thing about her that they didn’t know.
There seems to be a disconnect here, and I’d like to address it directly: there are more than a few readers who don’t really like the Becky character. This should not automatically be reduced to “those people are closet homophobes” or just plain “those people are homophobes”.
Not to say that homophobes don’t exist, but I would argue that a lot of us simply find her to be a one-note Poochy of a character. (Right down to “When he’s not onscreen, someone will ask ‘Where’s Poochy?’)
“But Joe’s one note”, is also an argument. He is one-note, but he’s not also tacitly praised by the comic for that.
In any case this is a reaction to a comic character, not a referendum on lesbians in general or to anyone’s RL life experiences in particular.
While I agree that there’s a disturbing trend in the comment section to accuse other commenters of various extremes, more often than not, it seems to be because people who don’t have extremist views are still able to give the impression that they do.
When a discussion gets very passionate it’s not difficult to see how a comment that tries to criticize Becky’s behaviour separate from Becky herself can give the impression of being a bongo rant about how homosexuals need to consider how they affect people around them by not going back in the closet when they’re in public.
Sometimes, the best way to avoid saying anything offensive, is to say nothing at all.
>it seems to be because people who don’t have extremist views are still able to give the impression that they do.
Well… you find what you’re looking for, I guess? If you’re cruising for enemies, you’ll eventually find them. Even better, the ones you find that way will insist they’re not enemies, so then there’s the joy of rooting out Hidden Evil or whatever.
I’m not making a claim that I don’t see people be unfairly compared to Toedad or have their arguments infantilized to the most immature drivel imaginable. I’ve even seen people be presumptiously accused of being cisgendered heterosexuals who can’t understand what it’s like to be neither. (Spoiler: Turns out they could)
I’m merely making a point that often a major factor is that people speak on a subject in which they sorely lack the experience to properly articulate their thoughts in a way that can’t be easily misconstrued.
I’m speaking from personal experience. I don’t remember which page or which point I was trying to make, but suffice it to say, it turned out much more horrible than I intended. My intention however matters little if I can’t articulate it properly.
There is a disconnect, but that isn’t it. Because no one has argued that you must be homophobic if you dislike Becky.
Everything that has been argued has been against specific claims by others. That claim has never been “I don’t like Becky.” It’s always been claims about Becky’s character that are easily refuted if you’ve actually been reading the comic. (I’d refute them again, but you can just scroll up.)
Furthermore, the type of homophobia that is being alleged here is not some blatant hatred of gay people. Barring trolls, I don’t think there’s anyone reading this comic who could be that homophobic. The allegations are about much tinier forms–forms that you only notice about yourself if you’re very introspective.
To give some real world examples: have you ever seen gay people kiss? Did it weird you out in a way that straight people kissing does not? That’s homophobia. Did that gay person hitting on you in the same way a straight person might make you feel grossed out, that’s homophobia.
Combining these two things, it should become clearer what is actually being argued. These people seem to show a hatred towards Becky that isn’t justified by their claims. So they likely hate her for other reasons that they can’t articulate. And what’s the big neon sign over her character? She’s gay. Could it be that unintentional homophobia is what is driving people to hate her so much?
The issue is that it doesn’t make sense to vehemently hate someone that has never been portrayed as a horribly immoral person. Sure, you find her annoyingly one-note? Okay. That’s a criticism of the writing. But that’s not going to make you argue she’s selfish and a bad friend. That’s not going to make you talk about how horrible she is for daring to talk to them like a normal person.
And, the thing is, it’s only a handful of people. It’s IJ, who argued that Becky had constantly been ruining Joyce’s life. It’s Yamatoe who tried to argue that Becky has never thought about anyone but herself. It’s Viktoria who argued that Becky intentionally tried to fuck up Joyce’s life (and was told multiple times how offensive what she was saying was by an actual gay person and didn’t even try to soften her response). Then there’s Rabid Rabbit who flat out gave every reason why Becky was perfectly justified for what she did, but that that somehow was the reason she found her annoying.
Building off some of your points, it’s worth noting that part of institutional homophobia is the way that we as a culture do not have a baseline of genuine equality. What is modeled as normal, what is reflected in our reactions to queer characters is often skewed in ways in which a queer character has far less room to fuck up and just naturally feels like they’re doing something wrong when they exist. And where queer characters are held to higher, sometimes impossible standards.
And that aspect is not because people are cackling villains who even remotely intend to perpetuate homophobia. It’s because that baseline inequality is our normal. It’s modeled as our normal.
And that means that individuals contributing to cultures of unfair or unsupported hatreds of Becky and that institutional homophobia are not bad people. They are following what is normal.
In the same way that it is modeled as normal for people to react to people saying, hey, this stuff really hurts me as if they are taking away their freedom of speech.
And it’s really hard to break away from that or even notice it is happening and since it’s not as flashy as direct homophobia, it can be really really hard to notice and even harder to get rid of.
So yeah, I guess I just want to say to every person who feels hard done because I or others are calling out your statements and noting the concerning or triggering aspects of them, it does not mean we feel you are a bad person or a full-on villain. We don’t think you’re actively trying to harm or contribute to hateful culture. We know it feels you are making a perfectly innocent statement and people are blowing it way out of proportion. We know that what you are doing is normal and that any skew does not originate in you.
But that contribution can lead to situations like this thread. Scroll up, see how the comments shitting on Becky drown everything out. Now imagine you are a Becky. Or have been a Becky in the past. Now imagine you see that. How would that feel? Would this thread feel safe? Would they understand that all the statements about how dare Becky be so “you know” and make Joyce’s life harder because now the homophobia is closer to the surface are not intending to apply to them?
Would it stop triggering their own memories of being told that they should be not seen and not heard? Would they feel valued by the people on this thread? If they are suicidal, would they feel bolstered to continue on another day?
These little things are droplets in a storm and altogether, it builds something genuinely toxic. I know no droplet has anything but the best of intentions. It’s just… well, the storm is and continues and is normal.
All of this!
I would some small points as it relates to Becky .
You have correctly explained how becky ( and LGBT People ) are held to a different standard and their faults are taken out of proportion.
All true.
However this is a Flip side that is just as insidious.
Not recognizing their virtues, when they occur.
This is harder thing to see, as its a lack. Every character here has both virtues and vices. ( Even Mary does Chibi drawing at a reasonable price. ) .
Once you see it, its hard to unsee. When a person or character’s vrtues get ignored its easy to miss how any faults are blown out of proportion.
But to do that a person has to actually cross the Phobic barrier and praise ad admire the gay or trans person. Not in spite of being queerness, but just for that character.
Which is why you and i see this bias. And why its invisible to them. When these virtues are so in their face, over-the-top cant-be-missed, they are treated as Vices too.
So Becky isnt seen as Brave, despite overwhelming evidence. Shes seen as Pushy. Shes not seen as Romantic , but creepy .
( even when Joyce says falling in love with your best -friend is the most romantic thing in the world ) . Carla isnt seen as a wisecracking bugsbunny in skates. Shes the terror-on-wheels.
Becky gets zero credit ever, for being able to correctly read people, and situations she has known for decades. Or for people she just met.
For understanding Joyce, and knowing her limits. None.
and Beckys pride and positive attitude is of course , seen as emotional abuse against the straight people. How dare she like herself. She gets zero credit for openess , warmth, and emotional availability. If she wants respectable affection from readers she will need more angst and self-hate.
And at no point is the inability to see these virtues seen for what they truly are: Vices in the people reading.
Disliking Becky is totally fine. She’s over the top and boisterous and totally not everyone’s cup of tea. What’s fucked up is acting like she’s a toxic influence in her friend’s life, or worse, saying she’s to blame for the homophobia directed at her. Like some comments are.
I want to agree with you,
except ‘Over-the-top” and “Boisterous” are generally seen as positive, and even, Heroic traits.
Shes over-the-top and Boisterous —without being burdened by self-hate and angst, rage issues, or even a personality disorder. Almost like shes the most well-adjusted cast member , in her own league.
The only way these people can see her as toxic , is to turn her many virtues into vices.
Superman: Fuck that Guy. Hes too Boisterous. With that bold S on his chest. who does that guy think he is? Flying? thats Over-the-top. Like literally. A Red cape too? Goddamit the man is walking-flying Pride Parade. We get it.
Women aren’t allowed to be confident in society. A man who’s confident in himself is heroic and a leader. A woman who’s confident is a b**** or a ball-breaker.
Sadly extroverted enthusiasm, often is shamed out of men, too.
( despite being a desired male-goal, and frequent male trait )
The Big Exceptions being chasing a ball pointlessly around a field, like cat after a laser pointer. Thats allowed, and super-heavily reinforced.
And watching that. “Go Kitty, Go Kitty, GOOOO!’
um getting laid, If you are straight.
and being a Cartoon Tiger. ( and some bears ) .
I do not know what the gender rules are for female cartoon Tigers.
( maybe thats like female dwarves: rare, hidden in mountains and looks the same anyways. )
Becky’s not really one note. Her enthusiasm, her empathy for those round her, her tact whether credited or not (not hitting on Dina for example), her interest in learning and in building a life for herself…if all you read is loud lesbian, you may be seeing a stereotype where the author is working a bit harder than that.
fer shiz
People who judge Becky for being a gay character already planned on doing so the moment we found out, and filter every judgement of her through that lens.
Dude, people like you are a problem. You’re as dogmatic as the fundies here presented, but with a different dogma. You’re basically presenting exactly the response Briny remarked on. NO ONE is judging Becky for being gay.
And with that, done talking to you.
Well that came out of nowhere.
No, it really, really didn’t.
Well, clearly Becky wasn’t thinking at ALL. Now Joyce’s parents’ll know she lied to them, and ‘everyone back home’ will know where Becky is. Joyce’s chance at a nice, calm weekend home is now blown, as is Becky’s cover. I like Becky, and obviously I sympathize with her, but this was just stupid.
???
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/honkin/
What, do you expect us to read the comic and remember things that happened?
Retention is for water, not information. That’s why I’m so chubby and hydrated.
This strip makes me want to see Joyce in an MMA fight.
( Ahem *Toedad* )
I have officially been given a telling off by the author. I feel… honoured? I appreciate that I’d forgotten this story arc, my apologies. It’s been a bit of a busy few days for me. There are things she’s lied about, but I’ll grant you that Becky’s whereabouts were not one of them.
I’d like to clarify – I didn’t think the move was bad WRITING, not in the slightest. Just ill-thought-through on Becky’s part, and I stand by this second bit.
Joyce was never going to have a calm weekend home. Her parents did get that voicemail she left. It didn’t just float away into nothingness.
I actually went, “Dammit, Becky” for a reason that it looks like hardly anyone else did.
Becky currently has a warm bed only because she is squatting in the dorm. Having that warm bed depends on her lying low and not letting authority figures realize she’s living there. But I feel like everyone takes that seriously EXCEPT Becky. Just before the Mary horrorshow, didn’t we see someone warn Becky that she needed to get out of sight quick because Ruth was near? And yet Becky’s reaction was to stand there and compliment her hairstyle, until someone yanked her into a room and shut the door?
Whatever Becky’s motivations are for jumping in front of Joyce and her dad, she’s still risking a public confrontation in a public lobby. This could easily become a scene that draws the attention of Ruth or other authorities, simply because Joyce has been on edge for days. And even if there isn’t a scene, every second that Becky spends out in the open is another second in which Ruth could come along and think, “Hmmm…”
Yep. Very good point. Kinda ties in with what others were saying.
A lot of people put themselves out to keep this situation going, and it’s not ‘demanding that you go in the closet’ to expect that if there’s a situation requiring secrecy (ie, “you’re crashing in the dorm, and you’re not a student”) and people have put themselves out (say, putting you in their room and not telling the RA who is also their girlfriend, endangering their standing and relationship), that you at least put in the minimum effort of cooperating in the thing that’s for your benefit.
Now: Betcha that this whole thing works out like so-
Becky is brought home with Joyce, for one reason or another (there are different ways this could go, from ‘Joyce insists’ to ‘Becky invites herself’ to Hank not having an issue, or having an issue and not wanting to look like a hypocrite, etc). This frees up Billie’s dorm room, so when Mary pulls the trigger on the “vagrants” blackmail thing, there’s nobody there and thus nothing happens on that front.
Of course, she’d then come back, but by then it’s crying wolf.
That sounds like a happy ending for everyone involved except Mary. (That and maybe Becky retrieves her social security card from her house)
What do you figure the odds are on that actually happening in this comic?
I figure the over-under is more along the lines of Becky going, but Billie and Ruth failing to capitalize on that because it’s not been communicated to them because Becky’s presence is still technically a secret from Ruth.
False happy-ending, then it turns out Mary’s got something else, too? She did have that whole ‘fraternizing’ thing.
I’ve got my money on that scenario. She’s going to be an enemy that will take most of the comic to beat, I suspect.
I find it bizarre how many people (both in universe and out) assume ‘being seen at the residence where both her best friend and girlfriend live, during the day, when guests are totally allowed’ would be enough to reveal that she’s living there.
Well, guests are allowed (and heck, they can even stay the night), but there are probably restrictions:
– Residents can’t have overnight guests for more than a few nights
– If the resident isn’t an overnight guest, I suspect that they can’t be there past a certain hour
– There are probably provisions to allow people like staff and/or RAs to challenge people they see (to make sure the person actually is a guest, and isn’t breaking any of the rules)
Hank should WANT and be HAPPY to see Becky alive and apparently doing well. The only reason he wouldn’t would be because she’s gay and wouldn’t let Toedad have her fixed and caused all the trouble that Joyce was naively sucked up into because she stood by her friend.
Pacing. One of the things a character like Becky (impulsive and direct, which are the relevant traits to my point) does is allow the writer to move the story forward. Another character might have approched this situation differently, but then we’d still be going through their opening move next week.
Personally, the only criticism I might remotely apply to Becky is the missed opportunity of having Joyce in on this. And that’s entirely a case of “would have been awesome if she’d thought of it a few minutes ago”; I’ve been the dad two teenage girls are ganging up on, and it’s no fun when you actually have a good reason for your edicts. Teenagers with the moral high ground? Of such things are nightmares made…
Teenage children! I was one of those once! On a family trip we drove past a gay couple. My dad made a casually and mild disparaging remark. I said, yeah, they’re just like the Jews, right? He said thats not the same at all. I said, yellow star/pink triangle, that doesn’t seem like much of a difference to me. He didn’t reply to that: he knew that I was right and that he had been wrong, and didn’t mind me pointing it out. A good man, rest his soul.
Some people today believe, sincerely, that the Southern states seceded because of states rights, not slavery, but the only issue that made states rights worth seceding and fighting a war over was slavery. Anologously, the ONLY “reason” that Becky has to be “tactful” is if Hank is homophobic and she should tactful and not flaunt her existence in his face, so Hank and Joyce can get on the road while pretending that she isn’t gay and isn’t sheltering with Joyce.
Say, Hank, wasn’t your Joyce best friends with that Macyntire girl who turned out to be, you know, one of “them”? They were inseparable werent they? I guess you didn’t see any “warning signs” when they were growing up. I wonder if Joyce knew that her best friend was in Satan’s crosshairs. Is Joyce still in touch with her? I know that Joyce is a wonderful girl, but if she was my daughter I might be worried that Becky might be a bad influence on her now that she’s openly defied her father and the whole Church.
You don’t think that she’d have the nerve to show up back here and expect us to accept her, do you? Brother, that would beat all! What do the Jewish People call that … catspaw? (And they should know, shouldn’t they….)
It’s fun to supply everyone’s arguments and the reason why they’re wrong, isn’t it? No need to actually take new information on-board about people’s motivations, ever again! It’s so efficient.
You talkin’ to me? You must be talking to me because I’m the only one …. oh, wait, I’m not the only around here. Never mind.
Briny: I just read your posts above with Amunduh, which I hadnt before I made my recent posts, I just came right to the bottom from farther up. Your tactical reasoning is not wrong, I think, and it might have been wise for Becky to have done as you suggest AND I don’t want my posts to be read as suggesting that all the girls on the hall who are helping Becky are homophobes OR that you are. My argument is that Becky is only in this situation because she’s gay from a homophobic social millieu, and perhaps she should consider tactics, Ala Jocelyne’s advice to Joyce to pick her battles, but the situation is still homophobic and oppressive if she has to tactful about being gay ESPECIALLY with Hank.
Like you’re doing with the entire comments section? You know, popping up every few hundred comments to remind everyone that you don’t like Becky and that anyone who disagrees with you is baselessy calling you a homophobe to deligitmize you and stifle dissent?
Yeah, sounds like you’ve been having a lot of fun.
Once again Mr Willis writes what, on the surface, is a fairly innocuous strip yet still manages over 800 comments
Well done
Unconscious homophobia and victim blaming is a hell of a drug.
I have a purely technical question for either Willis or whomever’s in charge of technical website stuff if it’s not him: Can the “overflow: hidden” be removed from the “narrowcolumn” CSS class? It causes the comment section to sometimes get into a hidden scrolled state that’s not easy to recover from.
Deleting the page from your history will usually do the trick. I’m saying this because removing one little thing from a code can cause a myriad of unexpected & more annoying problems in my experience.
Oh, it goes away if I reload the page. Part of the reason that it’s hard to recover from is it tends to come back when I search for the comment I was reading before.
I could chime in about the whole Becky debate, but Cerberus and other have already said everything (and more) that I could’ve said, so instead I’ll be making an irrelevant observation.
Dorothy, Walky and Dina’s position in the 3rd panel reminds me of that scene in Friends where they’re all sticking their head around the door.
There were two directions Mr. Willis could have gone here.
1) Joyce travels home with her father. She and her parents have a long talk. They tell her how much they admire her resilience and independence, and wish her continued growth as long as she’s safe and doesn’t forget Jesus. She travels back to UI and pursues her well-adjusted and increasingly cheerful life.
2) Becky.
So entirely apart from the good-Becky/bad-Becky arguments, we have story construction. Which one would you rather read?
Base rate fallacy
Sorry, that wasn’t one of the options.
Shouldn’t have been flippant. I’m an old person who never grew up.
Base rate fallacy is essentially that a very small fraction of a very large sample can be a lot bigger than a very large fraction of a very small sample, even though the statement of conditions don’t make it obvious. I just don’t see how that applies in this case.
Are you capable of abstract thinking? Not as an insult, but as a guiding query. Apply the statistical logic to verbal logic, rather than being a literalist
Not just that, but I don’t see him limited to only two options here and certainly not those two.
Given what we know of Joyce, her parents and their religion, I really don’t see the first as likely at all. How about:
1) Joyce travels home with her father. She and her parents have a long talk. Which turns into a screaming argument when they defend Toedad’s basic attitude, if not his actions and Joyce tries to defend Becky, but goes off into abstract Biblical arguments about sin, homosexuality and honoring your parents. Jocelyne comes out to support Joyce and everything really blows up. Both get disowned and kicked out.
2) Becky goes home with them, after some heated discussion with Hank. Her presence starts the argument sooner, but also humanizes it. Her being there reminds them that it’s not just an theological argument, but the little girl they know so well and were so fond of. Things end with them at least tolerant, if not actually supportive.
I doubt it’ll be as clear cut as either of those, but there’s no way it would have been simple and easy if Becky stayed hidden.
Total agreement. I was just trying to keep it to 100 words. Still, given the choice, with no other information, I want the version that includes Becky.
Well of course. Any scenario with Becky is a better scenario. 🙂
You seemed to be imply that without Becky things would go smoothly and end happily and Becky would make things worse, which we should pick because it would be a better story.
So true. More Becky = more excitement. That’s all I’m saying. She brings in a ton of issues. How can that possibly be bad?
What’s Hank going to say to her? The tension is unbearable. (At least for me. I would be on tenterhooks if I knew what they were.)
Well we’re probably going to all be sad and depressed by the end of the story arc, for starters.
…A lot of us get really into this series, don’t we?
We do get into Dumbing of Age.
Those of us who don’t see the previews don’t necessarily anticipate feeling depressed. Joyce and Becky both have support groups, lots more than most alt-group teens have.
The author has created two sturdy characters who each have vulnerabilities. We want them to succeed and will be heartbroken if they don’t. That’s a tribute to the author.
For my two cents I think Becky’s actions have something to do with her internal scream about Joyce and Dorothy being pretend married in class. Not in any rational A plus B equals C or If this then that way but in an “I’m going be irrational and spontaneously and do something stupid here because I’m internally upset about something unrelated over there” way. Like getting into a flamewar about politics on Facebook and being in a bad mood and snapping at your spouse later. The two events are completely unrelated but the first one put you in a bad mood which played out later.
Do you mean sort of how like Walky was in a bad mood and Joyce inadvertently made him feel worse so he blurted out about the fake marriage thing?
Me too
Another good point, I loves me some drama so yeah 2 is the best option
Dammit, that’s was suppoded to be in reply to Peduncle
Thank you. Here’s the link. We certainly hope that nobody opts for #1! Talk about a snoozer.
So something that’s gone unmentioned, because of course it has, is that Walky is literally cheering on the idea of Joyce and Hank getting into a fundie cage match with each other and feels cheated that Joyce is actually having a civil conversation with her father.
That’s our Walky. He’s not good with this kind of thing. You know, feelings and emotions.
OTOH, I’m pretty sure he’d try to help, however ineptly, if it did get bad.
I know he would, because Walky is actually a compassionate individual whose ideas of masculinity get in the way of expressing that he genuinely cares for the people in his life.
You know, like Becky. Except unlike Becky, Walky is almost always given a pass for behaviour most of the characters would get bricked by the comments for.
Fair enough, though he’s taken his share of attacks – most recently over his joke to Joyce coming out of the hospital, which even he realized was bad as soon as he’d made it.
And here he’s just making snide side comments while Becky’s actively getting involved. As I think she should, mind you.
I think it’s kind of telling that whenever Walky gets shit for something, it’s always in-narrative, and rarely the fanbase calling him out on saying it.
Like, he’s not the worst person ever, that’s not my point, but there’s a pretty clear distinction with the way macho cishet dudes Joe, Mike and Walky get treated for their bullshit, and in Mike’s case actual abuse, and Becky at worst being being a bit loud and flippant. Seriously, if anybody ever wants to give her shit for something, it’s never something bad she’s actually done, like assuming she was allowed to plant one on Joyce. It’s always “Becky you’re too loud” and “Becky how dare you use that $20 for a haircut.”
*shrug* I’ve called Walky for being a manchild, 18 going on 11, “smart” in all the wrong ways, etc etc etc.
Pretty much everyone in this comic is messed up and/or annoying in one way or another. In that sense, Becky’s just part of the crowd.
typical hitting-return-too-soon: meant to add “immature, ignorant,” in the middle of that list of qualities. Which, of course, fits with college freshmen, some of them with extremely sheltered/privileged/effed-up upbringings. :p
Oh, I hate Walky.
The list of characters I actually like in this strip (as opposed to, like, “I wanna see what happens”) is pretty short. This is even allowing for the whole-lotta-trauma-goin’-on proviso.
I’m a charter member of the Sierra (Fan) Club. But she doesn’t do much for plot or drama. [That’s a suggestion, Mr. Willis!]
Now that you’ve said that we’re going to get a storyline where the weather suddenly gets really cold and Sierra is forced to wear shoes!
And cover her navel. Where will it all end?
Okay, you guessed it. Sierra’s on the short-list of characters I like. 🙂
Okay, just guessing.
* Dorothy (she cut Amazi-Girl a lot of slack)
* Jacob (he cut Sarah a lot of slack)
* Tau (he was discovered at SLAC)
Dorothy, to a point, I guess. Sarah, when she’s not all a fan of her own curmudgeonliness. (See, if you’re in rapt fandom of what a crank you are, that’s a problem. Just being a bit cynical is something else entirely) The as-far-as-I-know unnamed muslim student who works the front desk at the dorm. Riley DeSanto, because CEREAL! enthusiasm- I’m picky but I’m not a monster, you know!
The person at the front desk is Asma. I don’t think her name is ever used except in the tags.
Honestly, I’m with Walky here.
I don’t like the Walky character either.
He’s exactly the stupid freshman character I remember being in my college days. Except that he’s about three times as smart as I was.
We’ll just have to hope that the Walky character improves twice as fast as I did (still not enough!).
At first I was confused at their reaction, but than I remembered “Oh right, Joyce’s parents don’t know Becky lives with her.”
To quote Willis a little ways up
???
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/honkin/
As far as their reaction is concerned, I think they’re both all too aware that one of Hank’s best friends aimed a gun at Joyce. And now the daughter said friend kidnapped at gunpoint is right in front of them too. I could be wrong, but they’ve looked awkward through the entire page, the way people act when they’re trying to avoid the same subject that’s on everybody’s mind.
Okay I’m lost… Joyce is going home? Why? Did I miss somthing?
Joyce is going home for the weekend to talk with her parents about Becky, Toedad, gayness, and how God does or does not tie into all this. Jocelyne her sister (who her parents think is her brother) will be there for moral support or to add even more fuel to the fire.
On the surface, Joyce is going home because her parents are worried about her after her involvement in the campus shooting and attempted kidnapping. They want to reassure themselves that she’s alright and provide some care and comfort. That’s all perfectly normal, good healthy family reaction. (and frankly I’m surprised half the kids aren’t being dragged home this weekend, even if they weren’t directly involved.)
Below the surface, as Captain Button said, they’re worried about her soul being corrupted by atheism & lesbianity. It’s gonna be ugly.
I learned something new today. My mother is cartoonishly racist, on top of being transphobic. I am literally running out of the energy to deal with her. I cannot leave home as I have no job, no real money, and no friends willing to support me while I try to lessen my interactions with her. I need advice bad and this is the only place I can think of to get some.
This might not be the best place to get advice, but I’d look into, like, low-income places like hostels and halfway homes? They also usually have contact with temp agencies and such.
Get in contact with a crisis hotline. There are numerous youth hotlines and probably one for your own particular state or country or maybe even city. With them you can go in-depth and hopefully get help figuring out on how to deal with your particular situation. They are all there because they want to reach out.
If the transphobic part pertains to you, there’s the http://www.itgetsbetter.org/ project.
There you can find, among other things, a couple of places to contact for more specialized support than a normal crisis line.
*hugs*
My advice will be a little broad as I’m not sure of your exact circumstances, but hopefully some of it will help.
First up, make sure you keep having sympathy and empathy for yourself and you forgive yourself when needed. Getting out of situations like that often take time, so in the meantime, it may be necessary to just start eliminating how much time you spend with toxic people like your mom, which might mean just walking away when she’s going on a hateful rant or literally leaving the house if you feel your life or safety is in danger. Self-care will be critical during this time, make sure you schedule some and make sure you are easy on yourself if you don’t quite meet your own standards.
Two, if you are a flavor of LGBT, research what the local LGBT center for your location is. These often have a wealth of resources for both queer youth in crisis and practical advice for those who’ve had to ride out or escape toxic family environments. It can also be useful to have community as it can allow an outlet for how bad things are at home.
Three, take advantage of whatever the state health insurance is to try and get a therapist if possible as they’ll help you with short-term survival as you build up your eventual method of escape. This will also help for processing out the hurtful things your mom might be saying in your direction.
Again if you are LGBT, sites like this can help immensely:
http://www.gaylesta.org/
That page also has a Resources section with a lot of different resources for various issues.
Four, if in crisis, please seek out crisis hotlines as Havtorn notes. Suicide Prevention Hotlines or the metanoia “Suicide: Read this first” page can be absolutely critical if you are hitting heavy crisis mode.
Fifth, please believe that you will get out of this. I know you are exhausted with her crap and it’s deeply painful, but you will eventually get out. In the meantime, focusing on one step at a time can be critical, focusing just on trying to get a job or finding a safer way to be homeless in case things get unbearable. But don’t make it a mission wherein you never take breaks or take care of yourself. Above all, be compassionate towards yourself.
Beyond that, please let me know if there’s a specific issue you need direct help with, just know that we’ll have your back and you’ll get through this.
*mega giga hugs*
Thank you to all three of you for the advice and resources. I’ll look into it.
Hank: “Still my little girl.”
Joyce: “Y-yeah.”
Yesterday that looked like trouble. Today it looks like doomsday.
Mr. Willis knows how to foreshadow.
“Still my girl.” Gideon Graves
“Let’s both be girls.” Ramona Flowers
God dammit, comments section!
Let’s focus on the real victim here of the comments section. Our infallible hero, Mike has been slandered and I for one wont stand for it.
Mike is love. Mike is life.
No. He’s an asshole.
Like Black Hat Guy over on xkcd, and other notable assholes (some fictional, some not), he’s acquired a fandom for being a jerk to people who “deserve” it or “need to hear it”… but that’s a convenient and ultimately toxic justification, IMO. One can find reasons and excuses to wish suffering on almost anyone… and Mike serves as proxy, allowing us to see our darker impulses acted out and “truth” spoken while our own hands remain clean.
I am quite sure that Boomboom and Spencer were speaking in Sarcasm, a language that negates its own statements. They (and I) agree with you. Mike does not speak for us.
*gets in bunker*
Upon rereading, Hank’s reaction here doesn’t look nearly as extreme as Joyce’s. He looks more surprised than shocked or repulsed or anything like that. So here’s hoping his reaction won’t be the worst.
“Well, if it isn’t Becky! And you’ve done something to your hair.”
Now I’m remembering why I don’t like Becky.