Well yeah, by watching enough porn ANYBODY can be an expert on scissoring..
I knew it! Daniel the Human tried telling my otherwise, but I thought I knew better. Not to figure out how to tell him those words “I told you so”, without getting magnets thrown at me…
This actually seems like a good sign. We followed his perspective here right from the whole Danny deal, and this seems to be drawing his attention to how serious that can be, even though he’s refusing to admit it.
No way, Walkyverse!Joe literally chased women who were running away to verbally harass them. I realize that this isn’t exactly a high bar, but yeah, at least this Joe leaves women alone if and when they aren’t into being leered at.
Does it seem like Joe is intentionally trying to create a non-threatening world around him by alienating everyone who could force him to confront his personal issues with his family?
We know that the divorce is a soft spot, we know he really doesn’t like talking about emotional issues. We know he really doesn’t mind being despised by people who focus on emotional relationships.
And here the teacher is talking about a very sensitive issue regarding broken family life, and Joe wants none of that.
I don’t know if this is where Willis wants to go, but it is more than possible that Joe is heading for some kind of tipping point where someone confronts him on his shallowness and immaturity. Personally I’m rooting for Mike to be an asshole in a way that breaks Joe.
I would ENJOY watching the current Joe get kicked in the dick til he learns. Currently his attitude just… It ruins everything, really. I get that he’s trying to avoid drama as hard as he possibly can, but his attitude just causes tons more for those around him. it’s selfish and he should know better.
Really? Mike seems to make his assholishness benefit most people. Didn’t he kinda seal Dorothy and Walky? Bring out Joyce’s problem after the rape? Keep Amber from choosing to go meaner in fear of becoming like her dad? Get Dorothy to tell her ex-boyfriend about Walky?
That’s typically how Mike always uses his assholishness. It almost always benefits someone; I’m just assuming Willis’ fanbase has gotten younger than it used to be. None of them seem to understand characters that have layers.
Well, even if you are an asshole for good reasons (or w/e) that still makes you an asshole.
Basically if a good writer were to have a character give a Reason You Suck Speech it would involve calling him out on how he’s obviously intelligent, quick witted, observant as well as having high standards when it comes to people not fooling themselves, others, being hypocrits and true to themselves. He could EASILY just talk to people and TELL them what they are doing wrong but he CHOOSES to be a jerk about it. Embarrassing them, hurting them, manipulating them. The fact that he isnt “just a jerk” could be seen as making it worse. Since rather than just being a simple, violent, selfish person, he’s a good person who chooses to make everyone miserable.
I love him as a character, but the fact is he’s an asshole.
Yea i think its pretty obvious from the last discussion that Joe is fully capable of understanding complex human interaction, but for “some reason” he puts up a big shield focusing on his own sex life and basically talking to people via the filter that he is comfortable expressing, because he doesnt like emotional stuff.
My guess would be that his home was very emotional during the divorce but during school he put up a big front for Danny either because he didnt want to burden him or he didnt want to be pities.
It would be interesting to see Joe’s take on homosexuality.
“Its super lame because now there are few chicks to hit on”
“Yea, but that also means that there are fewer dudes to compete with.”
“…….Touché.”
Agreed on Joe’s stance on sex. If it’s consensual and enjoyable, do whatever. Not sure about confronting him with asexuality however. Trying to wrap his head around that might launch him into a mental meltdown and put him in a coma.
Yeah coming out was probably the wrong way to describe it. But I guess the conversation pretty much ended where we saw it and Danny didn’t actually admit what he’s been experiencing which is pretty realistic but I can’t say I’m not disappointed. I want him to be able to actually vocalize what he’s feeling and for someone ANYONE to let the kid know bisexuality is a thing that exists. Plus god he’s so stressed about it. It would have probably been such a weight lifted to say what he’s feeling out loud.
I feel like this about so many of the characters. That they all need to be told it’s ok what they’re feeling and that they’re gonna be ok. But it’s like that old joke that if everyone in the cast of DoA went to a therapist or a support group or something, the whole comic would be over :p
Maybe College is just one group therapy session. You’re introduced to new ideas and ways of thinking, so you can try a few on. But you’re also introduced to other people who feel and think different ways and even the same way you do, so you can work through your issues with them. By the time you come out of college, there’s a good chance of there being a brand new you upon graduation.
Every kid in every college everywhere EVER needs that. God knows I did. If someone had taken 15-year-old me by the hand and said, “You know, you’re not actually a freak, it’s okay to like boys as well as girls,” then the next 8 years of my life would have been a hell of a lot less, well, like hell.
I think Joe worked out that Danny wasn’t completely straight from their conversation and that part of his reaction here is anger at being confronted with the unfortunate truth that LGBT stuff isn’t all scissoring and fun and that that truth can be applied to Danny too.
I’m really glad I’m not the only one who thought this. I mean, I don’t like Joe much, but he’s not completely horrible. He does care about Danny, obviously. He just wishes Danny would quit making his own life so complicated. Or, that’s the vibe I always got. I mean, the way he sees, it, he does things the simple, easy way, and he’s happy. If Danny would just do the same, he wouldn’t have so many problems.
I couldn’t find any clothing in the online store, but apparently webcomics have sold recreations of clothes worn by their characters, as well as ones with quotes…
Maybe if someone asks, Mr Willis will give it a thought…
Yeah, seriously. But it’s really important for Joyce to know that her friend is in societal danger. I really want Leslie to notice Joyce’s reaction and talk to her after class, but that would involve a wise adult doing smart things, so unlikely to happen.
In real life, I hope that it would happen! I’m pretty sure that my professors would notice and quietly address this after class with a student who was having this reaction to the material, even just to let the student know that they’re supportive. But it wouldn’t be good storytelling to have Leslie swoop in and solve everything.
It very well could happen in real life, humanities oriented professors in particular tend to be sensitive to their students and I’ve seen/had professors talk to me to let me know they are there to talk when they’ve noticed that I have found particular material to be emotionally charged.
Huh. I wonder what my new English teacher is going to think of me then. After all, I wrote a two page response on the topic of Evil, and I’m not sure how deep my other responses will be. Probably not that deep though.
Maybe it wouldn’t be good storytelling. Maybe. But maybe it could be interesting to watch characters struggle in life despite accepting help from others. If an author tries too hard to protect and preserve problems the story can get way more stale than if problems resolve themselves “easily.”
Well, Leslie IS one of the smarter characters (in the Other Universe)… but to be fair, it’s harder to pick up on individual student reactions when a pornlord walks in
Leslie totally has pamphlets in her desk about student counseling resources and the local PFLAG chapter and the numbers for phone helplines and also chocolates and hugs for any student who needs them.
Just because she’s a fangirl doesn’t mean she’s not smart and grown. Certain topics have always turned her into a big puddle of jelly. Early on, crushes. And babies.
Yes. I’m pretty sure the big blue tears don’t come out for those (after all, liberals feast on fear and sadness! best not make their job any easier by showing it!).
Regardless, Dorothy both knows and cares about the source of those tears. If she doesn’t approach Leslie after class (with Joyce in tow) and tell Leslie about this (I know, I know, she’d be outing Becky, but it’s the lesser of two evils here) I will be sorely disappointed.
Given the speed and volume that Becky has been outing herself, I don’t think Joyce and Dorothy outing her to a teacher Becky hasn’t even met yet in order to secure assistance through her current situation is going to be a concern.
I agree. And so far, Leslie has shown herself to have a pretty level head in this universe too (except when Robin is around). I think the big question is whether Joyce trusts her enough. With a secret like that, she has to be very careful about who she turns to for help.
I don’t see Leslie giving special attention to a woman who gets freaked out fairly regularly and has built a supportive cushion of friends already. It’s the quiet loners who need help more.
Dammit, why does everyone hate Joe? Sure he’s a sex addict, and he doesn’t want to deal with any of his problems, but he’s a decent guy. He cares about his friend, he leaves girls alone if they want to be left alone, he kind of got used by Roz, and he’s a harmless comic relief character (for now). I seriously do not get why everyone hates him. Will someone please explain it to me?
It’s not that he didn’t care about his friend. He just wanted his friend to find someone else to give him the comfort he needed. Time spent talking about feels is time wasted when he could be masturbating.
I don’t mind Joe and find him refreshing at times (especially when Danny’s being wishy-washy), but strips like this dont paint him in a flattering light.
It’s for the same reason people don’t like criminals and drug addicts. They’re so focused on the bad stuff they can’t see the humanizing qualities and just demonize the heck out of them. In Joe’s case, the haters see horndog+general jerkiness to Danny.
On top of all that, this is the Internet. Everyone’s gonna have haters (and likers, but more importantly haters).
Do people hate Joe? I don’t hate Joe, but it seems like he’s being extra insensitive here. “God damnit, did we skip the chapter on scissoring” is suuuuuper inappropriate and Joe knows it. This is something I’d expect from Mike, but not Joe, you know?
Sorry, my sarcasm got a bit thick there … I allowed my frustration at the strain of hypocritical “I expect to be treated with tolerance and respect by people who out of ignorance are made uncomfortable by my actions, but I think we should visit violence on someone who I haven’t even tried to understand for making me feel uncomfortable”.
Joe is behaving really badly, but he hasn’t attacked anyone or even shown any inclinations towards intentionally hurting anyone and yet now we are ritually castrating him … I guess I’m kind of sickened by it all …
Regardless of the backstory, entitlement is entitlement, and the aura of it should be stopped from it source. I would admit that I was harsh on the castration part. Probably shame their attitude would be enough.
I am against bodily mutilations of all kinds, but I like where your head’s at. Maybe there’s a less violent alternative. But yes. Make them all go away somehow. That’d be…. very blissful.
Just like Joe I came here tonight thinking that we were going to avoid further dramatic topics for at least one page, my reaction to getting the exact opposite is FUCK !
That’s what I figured, but I was having real trouble getting my brain to resolve it that way. Looking at it on a different screen, it’s obvious. I’m not sure why. This screen is actually smaller…
It could be the pixels in the smaller screen match up better with the pixels being displayed. I noticed that some comics look much better at different levels of zoom on my laptop.
Gender Studies class is like the News Channel in any other fictional universe, it is 100% guaranteed to be topical to your life the moment you tune in to it.
Good lord, people! D: He’s not Blair/Ryan/Becky’s dad!
Give the guy a break; probably about 99.8% of what he knows about lesbians (or more) has been picked up from porn. Porn aimed at straight men, at that. I mean, the shirt he’s wearing even references it!
He’s not arguing that queer kids deserve that ill-treatment or asserting they’re going to Hell and need to stop being gay or anything; he’s just an immature (by which I mean “not fully-adult mentally”) guy who was anticipating an enjoyable topic only to be let down. It’d be like some kid anticipating the upcoming lecture on puppies to be adorable and awesome, only to be hit with info about puppy mills and animal cruelty.
I mean, sure, he’s being insensitive and tacky; but that hardly deserves more than a smack upside the head, if that.
^This. Joe can be a jerk, but he has his good qualities too. Right now, we’re just seeing Joe raise his defenses after being blindsided by ‘stuff’ again. Not the best way to handle the situation, but certainly not the worst either.
Need I remind you that Willis being on vacation does not give us all a free pass to be jerks. Quite the opposite actually, if “the incident” a few days ago is any indication. And that goes for everyone down here.
Joe made an unfunny joke in order to pretend that he doesn’t have emotions that can be affected by the horrible statistics Leslie’s dropping on him. You’re advocating that he be tortured and mutilated for this.
Someone here is being an enormous prick, but I’m not sure that it’s Joe.
Joe walked into class late. Declared in a loud and disruptive manner that he was late. Interrupted the lecture in progress to request he be caught up to speed on what he’d missed on account of is lateness. All in Panel 1. Then, somehow he just gets worse in the panels that follow.
Oh man, Leslie hasn’t even gotten into the suicide statistics yet (especially of kids whose families reject them). Holy shit this stuff is so awful you guys please start a thread of puns or something.
In the minority, i know, but I love Joe… and he’s going through some Stuff right now. Panel 3? Those horrible, painful, facts just got all tangled up in his convo with Danny and the hamster running on the wheel inside his head doesn’t even know what to do. Thus, Joe reverts to his default persona — sexist jackhole. (This isn’t a much different reaction than when Joyce wanted to call Becky’s dad to solve Becky’s school issues. Becky laid down some hard facts. Joyce’s inner hamster got confuddled on the wheel. She reverted to form: “There are other dads…”)
You realize the wishing of bodily harm upon him is also a defensive mechanism, right? Being in a comment thread on the internet doesn’t make you a better person.
Fair enough, but it doesn’t excuse it either … timemonkey is drawing peoples attention to the fact that a vocal subset of the commenters here are acting in a way that to me seems even uglier than Joe at his worst …
This may seem like an overreaction, but I feel like the pattern of commenting here can be very similar to online bullying and normalizes that behavior. [/rant]
Being in a comment thread on the Internet means you have the opportunity to step back, reassess your reaction to something, see how others are reacting, and determine whether or not your knee-jerk reaction was an appropriate one or not, all before “saying” it by posting.
Joe walked into a situation and had a classroom full of eyes waiting for his response in the moment.
I think both timemonkey and Ken have a valid point – assholish behavior, both in-comic and RL, doesn’t make someone evil, it means they’re in pain.
Joe seems very isolated and withdrawn right now. Not surprisingly, a string of casual sexual hookups can leave a person craving emotional connection, and he’s not getting a lot of that, right now (even from Danny, who’s mainly focused on his own problems – notice that Joe’s reaction to Danny’s uncomfortable question was “why aren’t you supporting me?”). He’s acting out, looking for attention, and what’s worse, i don’t think he even realizes it.
Count me as part of that minority. Joe says some really stupid things, but his heart’s in the right place.
And it doesn’t hurt that for all his philandering he’s considerate of the girls he pursues and takes ‘no’s gracefully.
I really, really don’t agree with this. Joe has mocked Danny over his breakup with his long-term girlfriend, started a fight with him over choosing not to have sex, and responded to his sexuality crisis by angrily complaining about Danny’s feelings. I don’t see any reason to assume that Joe is worrying about Danny here and not just annoyed that someone is harshing his buzz again. Even if he is… oh no, poor Joe, he’s so upset over the horrible suffering of LGBT people, that it’s okay for him to crack a joke objectifying lesbians? “Gosh, the discrimination towards you upsets me so much that I’m not obligated to do anything about it or even refrain from complaining about you talking about it and mocking you.” That doesn’t make sense. Reasons are not excuses.
Joyce and Amber have done similar things (“there are other dads”, “I’m too exhausted from supporting you to hang out with you”), Joyce is still prejudiced even with the massive progress she’s been making and has fucked up a lot, but they also have done things to be supportive. Both of them have intentionally, actively worked to lighten the burden on their gay friends. I don’t care what guilt or worry Joe might hypothetically be feeling until he actually does something positive about it.
and until he does some of that “non-ill intentioned and whole-hearted” positivity towards others, he doesn’t deserve our emphathy with his backstory as an excuse, especially IRL when we might not know about it.
I like how Joe was the one scolding Walky for his overly strict gender roles and Danny for disrespecting Billy’s ability to consent, but he’s also been an asshole over and over. Like, he correctly pointed out to Danny that Billy can make her own choices about whether or not to have sex, while yelling at Danny for choosing not to have sex. Criticizing his reasoning is one thing, but he literally described himself as “angry” because Danny didn’t have sex even before Danny was making assumptions about Billy. Even as a third party, you can’t disrespect someone’s choices like that.
Just like Walky and Sal’s mom is an important depiction of a racist who isn’t blatantly hateful and obvious, I think Joe is an important depiction of a very common species: the feminist sex-positive cis man “ally” who is totally open-minded as he disrespects people for not having sex and will not spend one jot of emotional energy to actually support LGBT+ people or people whose sexual lives don’t look like his. He’s come to a certain point of progressiveness and will not go one step further. Contrast with Walky, who’s all “I don’t own too many shoes because that’s girly” but is willing to take actions and make choices that are hard in order to support his sister, friends, and girlfriend.
I’m not saying Joe is a monster. I’m not saying he’s irredeemable or that he has no reasons to be the way he is. I’m not saying he’s always wrong. I’m not saying he has no good qualities. But I really, really don’t like him right now and I want the camera to turn to someone else.
can Leslie please just counsel half the cast. I know that like all humans she has limited willpower and can’t shoulder all their burdens, but please, some time in office hours with Professor Bean would do so much for Joyce and Becky and Danny and Ethan.
^ This. With a big ol’ +1 to go with it. Thank you. (And I don’t love Joe all that much, but I do give Willis credit for drawing three-dimensional characters . . . )
Post script to this: Joe is making me appreciate Roz sooooo much right now. I know she was joking around in that one scene with Riley when she was rattling off orientations, but I think it reflects a deep personal desire that Riley know and internalize from a young age what her “options” are, so she’ll never have to feel scared and alone like Danny does now. Roz loves sex and would probably describe herself as “sex-positive” and her expression of that is to actively spend her time, both as a Planned Parenthood representative and in her personal life, helping people get educated and access birth control/STI prevention so they can feel safe and comfortable about sex. Roz isn’t perfect but I feel so positive towards her right now.
Roz (and maybe to a lesser extent Dorothy) is probably the only person in this whole cast who I could actually see myself being friends with if they were real people – and what you just listed are among the biggest reasons for that. I love her an absolute ton.
Well said. As everyone else in this crowd Joe has a real personality with real inconsistencies. He aspires to an ideal that is not perfect and which he does not always manage to live, but he tries.
Sweety, shush. This was obviously a response to a question asked in-class by sweet, sweet Dorothy.
And sweet ignorant Joyce, SPIT IT OUT ALREADY!!!! HERE IS THE FIRST WOMAN, MAN OR CHILD IN THIS CONTINUALITY WHO CAN ACTUALLY HELP AND YOU ARE COMPLETELY BLOWING IT!!! DON’T YOU GET IT?!?! BECKY NEEDS HELP FROM SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT THE FRELLING BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP IS GOING ON!!!!!!
And JOE: SHUT UP! PROGRESS!!!! GAH! HOW OFTEN AM I GOING TO HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU “GOOD” GUYS THAT YOU CAN’T JUST INTERRUPT A MASTER PLAN IN PROGRESS?!?!?! GROW A BACKBONE ALREADY AND ACCEPT THAT EMOTIONS MATER, AND THAT LESLIE JUST SAID THAT TWO THIRDS OF THE ENTIRE LGTB SOCIETY DON’T GET TO HAVE NICE LIVES LIKE THE REST OF YOU, AND THAT THE ENTIRE NON-YOU COMMUNITY IS FORCED TO DEAL WITH THINGS THAT YOU CAN’T POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND, MUCH LESS FIX WITH A LITTLE SEX!!!
Someone let you out of your chair-box.
Also, read the comments. These people know Joe was out of line. Yelling here won’t touch him. Unfortunately, that’s a good thing. But you seriously need to calm down.
Why are you scolding yourself? You have the same IP address and everything. I would appreciate it if you would just type what you’re genuinely thinking and not RP with yourself.
1. You see my IP? YIKES!
2. Sadly, both are what I think. I deal with it all the time: I feel the need to type or say one thing, but then I talk myself out of saying it because it feels too mean or otherwise wrong. I don’t know any better way to go about expressing both sides of myself – the one that cares about the issue and what is going on and the one that cares about how my words affect others, as well as what they say about me.
3. Is there a better way to deal with 2? Keeping up two personas is not easy, but like I said, I don’t know any other way of dealing with the conflict.
I would recommend letting the two halves fight it out and reaching a consensus before shouting multiple paragraphs in caps all over the website. You’re not required to post every thought that comes to your head as you’re having it. You can give yourself five minutes to sort things.
I have tried to do that in the past (Mostly in real life and on facebook), but that doesn’t really stop the buildup. Usually what waiting means is that I fall silent – internalizing the feelings instead of ever getting them out – kinda like what happened to Joe (and EXACTLY what is fueling All Hail Dina right now). I know a happy medium would be best, but I don’t have any tools to achieve that yet. (Honestly, what more do you expect from a high-school student with no life? Seriously, your characters haven’t even figured it out yet, and they are in college! [Okay, well maybe Joyce has a trick or two up her sleeve, but you haven’t exactly shared it yet.])
If you have any tools for figuring out how to sort it out in my head without merely internalizing my emotions and opinions, then I might give it a shot. If I would just be doing exactly what I am already doing where my name (and thus relationship with my schoolmates and extended family, a good majority of them having a near exact perspective on life) is tied to, then I’d rather not attempt to apply an already failing strategy to where I am more comfortable expressing what I actually think and feel. It just isn’t worth isolating myself or putting more stuff into my “bad things” box.
Although it probably would be more worth it to internalize that stuff if I at the very least got to be a superhero because of it.
I’ve tried that. Multiple times. And failed. It’s one of the most common things people do, yet somehow I just don’t seem able. Maybe its because of the “when they happen”. Or maybe I put my “bad” box up too high and generally toss my bad feelings in. That way, the “bad” box only opens up when I throw something in and it all comes crashing down, so I can’t access it when I’m trying to use the journal.
Sorry, this kind of comment is really meant to stay within “All Hail Dina”. I haven’t exactly gotten a handle on separating them yet. The angry/hurt/inappropriate/mean stuff is supposed to stay on the OTHER username so that it remains under control.
Hey, Daniel Here. Sounds like you may have some problems you could do with some help sorting out. I’ll admit, I not expert, but it sounds like talking to the school counselor could help. Or if the school counselor doesn’t feel right, I know in Australia at least there are free call centers to help people, with special services for younger people such as Headspace (which this links to), that are more than happy to help. And if you think you’re alone, just remember you’re not the first to go through something like this, there are others who’ve survived it & are willing to lend a hand.
Perhaps a hobby, finding something you enjoy, could help too? Something that helps me keep my head screwed on right when it gets a bit too erratic & random from lack of use is indulge my love of giant robots. Transformers, Evangelion (my introduction to actual Anime), Gundam (“real robots”, good stories too) are the higher ranking ones, all helping me focus my mind on 1 thing. I At 1 point, I was literally having seizures for no medical reason anyone could find, spent a week in hospital cause of it, but when I got a Warhammer 40,000 rule book & started processing the rules, background & scenarios in it, they stopped immedietly! My brain wasn’t getting anywhere near enough stimulation, so it just “shorted out” for lack of better wording. Haven’t played in years, but I keep my mind busy. Maybe doing something can help you out. After all, All work & no play makes Jack a dull boy, don’t want anyone going all Shining on us…
Look, if you have something, ANYTHING, I’m willing to try it. But otherwise, I’m going nuts in here, and will try everything and anything to figure out who I am, break the silence I have built up for years, and to give the parts of me I’ve had to hide from others a voice. I tried to give you warning of this when I posted that “Please don’t block my “All Hail Dina” notice. I don’t know what I’m doing and I’m not comfortable with it myself, but I have to try something, or I’ll actually turn evil. Like I said, if you have anything, I’ll try it, but if I try to just “wait five minutes”, I’ll become purely silent. All Hail Dina is meant to get me to say what I want to say, and when Crazy Dina scolds All Hail Dina, it just shows why I don’t.
How about you have All Hail Dina write the original post, but then let Crazy Dina edit it into the finished version? You know what I mean? Use the AHD side of yourself to express the emotions/thoughts you want to share, but then let CD edit them down out of capslock rage (*grin*) into something calmer and easier to read that nevertheless still expresses what AHD wanted to share?
If you find you’re ambivalent on a subject, it’s perfectly acceptable to say so and give the reasons for it, like for example, “I have to admit, I’m of two minds about [subject]. On the one hand, [reasons for]; but on the other hand, [reasons against]…” None of us feel 100% about everything, every time. 🙂
Tried that one too. Crazy Dina usually just deletes it.
If she doesn’t, she navigates away, effectively doing so.
And despite actually typing it out, it often feels the same as just thinking it out, then repressing it. I really wish I knew what the frell is wrong with me.
I second the idea of looking into counseling, but in addition to that…
Have you ever tried writing fiction? When I try to write, say, a blog post of what I really think about something, I’m always caught up in the back and forth of “Well, I think this, but I also think the exact opposite of it, so let me backtrack into that…” and then that all gets muddled. (Partly, I need to get better at finding a voice I’m comfortable with for blogging.)
But fiction doesn’t have that problem for me at all. In fiction, you can write a character who believes certain things absolutely, and you can write a character who believes things that totally oppose that. You can make them fight it out, you can make interesting stuff happen to them, and you can make them learn things about themselves and each other. The story as a whole can express many ideas, even if the individual people in it never see the whole picture. Speaking as a person who overthinks everything, I love writing fiction, because finally, finally, all of the things can be true.
It may not be your thing, but you might give it a shot. It’s pretty fun. =)
I could send you a hand full of my attempts at writing fiction, if you’d like. have a few names, even some with some sections written out. None of them went anywhere though. 🙁 Same result as the journals.
Umm… I don’t exactly know what you are referencing. If you are referencing the fact that I seem to be split into two: an extremist who really cares about how she feels, and an intellectual who really cares about what she says, then yes, I am one of those “head-mates people”. If you mean I really am two people, I honestly can’t say either way. All parts of me have had the same experiences, read the same literature, and lived the same life. If there are really two people in here, then either one is extremely repressed, one of them only exists in a fantasy world I built for myself (entirely plausible, because I do have a fantasy world in my head at all times) or the differences are not strong enough to be particularly obvious. Both halves of me would have to be thinking at the same time, unless one is reacting to the other. I suppose that’s possible, but I don’t know if that is or is not the case.
Okay, I took a look. It’s not like that. More like I’ trying to use two separate identities to figure out what is going on in this one.
At least I think it’s one. During certain types of meltdowns, it does feel like I loose control of my body, so it’s possible it’s like a virtual-machine situation, but it’s definitely not the switch-main-profiles these people were saying they experienced.
I have a friend who does what you do, maybe. He has 5 personas that he uses to sort his thoughts. Is that what you mean? It’s not like he’s separate people, it’s like he separates out id and ego and…I don’t know what else, “stuff” as Joe says…to process better. Anyway, instead of posting to the forum as two different people, maybe you could record these thoughts in a Word document as a dialogue? That might be easier and more helpful for you than a linear-style journal. You describe AHD as “say[ing] what you want to say,” even if that’s “inappropriate/hurt/mean,” and CD as “scold[ing]” and “repressing it,” and it sounds like posting in a public forum is making it harder for you to accept both of them as…well, you. Writing on your own might help you let them work together instead of fighting.
That… actually is a decent idea. So I give a voice to both sides privately, then try to turn that dialog into a single post which combines both instead of overrides both. Not as interesting as keeping an evil persona, but that would force both out and make it possible for me to say everything I want to say, but differently.
Also, nice to know I’m not the only one trying this tactic. Give him a high 5 for me please, and tell him it’s for giving his friend a clue on how to help me.
I’m really hoping so. I really take after Sarah’s “talk to an adult who knows their shit” attitude, but if not then I guess there’s still Ruth? She’s nice to people out of her jurisdiction anyway ….
No, that’s just the parents who kick their kids out. A lot of crappy parents of LGBTQIA+ folks just won’t lay off. They try to get their kids to question their sexuality and/or gender identity, they berate their kids, or a wide range of crappy behaviors. I feel guilty for talking about my family in LGBTQIA+ spaces because I got really lucky, and I know so many more people who weren’t so lucky. Most can still return home, but don’t want to because of the treatment they know they’ll get. So 2 in 5 is WAY too generous. I would guess that the actual rate of LGBTQIA+ folks getting good, fully-accepting and supportive parents is closer to 2 in 100.
Okay, I know how twisted what I’m about to pose will sound, but please bare with me.
If more than two out of five of the LGTBQIA+ come from messed up parents, what exactly does that say? Is it an overall trend of bad parents, or is there something seriously wrong in that these are mostly people coming from bad homes?
Now that I’ve suggested that horrible idea, I have to seriously ask, why would this be? Why aren’t more of them coming from healthy, supportive homes?
Because a “healthy, supportive home” is encouraged to be horrible to queer individuals?
I mean, my childhood was relatively all right, but my parents went full bigot when I came out as trans* as an adult including pulling the whole disownment and corrective therapy cards.
And I do want to note that although you didn’t intend to, you did accidentally sidle up to a rather unfortunate argument that messed-up families cause queerness, which is rather demonstrably not the case (plenty of queer individuals come from happy supportive families and they have less of a likelihood of suicidal ideation or other trauma as a result).
Additionally, I know this is tangent of your point, but it may be worth pointing out that the suicide rates and bullying rates against queer youth is not endemic to being queer, but rather a reflection on how our society views queer individuals and the lack of social and familial support those youth face.
Actually, the first part of the post “Okay, I know how twisted what I’m about to pose will sound, but please bare with me.” was because I knew full well that that argument was going to sidle up to that argument, despite being a very real correlation that probably needs to be looked into. IF my personal speculations are right, although they have little to no actual data to support them, we should see a historical trend along those families, but if not, then that correlation still needs to be explained somehow.
The data doesn’t necessarily imply a correlation at all. It may simply be (and probably simply is) that X percentage of parents would be horrible bigots to their kids if their kids were LGBT. Only a relatively small percentage of kids are LGBT, ergo straight kids whose parents are bigots aren’t usually forced to confront the fact that there parents *could* have been horrible to them. (Parents who would be abusive regardless of their kids sexual identity or orientation are left out of this equation.)
Nothing in this implies that abusive behavior caused the kids to be LGBT. I think the most likely conclusion is simply the obvious: while great strides have been made, there are still way too many people who have a problem with LGBT people.
The idea that LGBT issues are pathological or caused by pathological circumstances is a very old, very discredited, very damaging idea. It’s simply not how this works, and LGBT people have been fighting that stigma a very long time. It is hurtful, and it is factually wrong.
Families ARE getting better. Parents are more likely to treat their LGBT kids supportively and well today than they were in the past. If abuse somehow “caused” people to become LGBT, then growing acceptance would lead to fewer LGBT people. Instead, greater acceptance has led to more LGBT people visible, because more people are able to come out and find communities that accept them. That in itself disproves your correlation.
As the strip points out, we’re very very much not done with bigotry being a problem. But things are improving, at least a little.
I said correlation, not causaltation. You seem to be arguing with my saying that one caused the other, like the studies showing that ice cream caused polio. That is not the case. Instead it was a correlation, (Ice cream sales were indeed up during the time that polio was infecting the most) caused by the fact that both Polio and Ice Cream were more popular in the summer.
Can we just talk about the beautiful example of double standard Willis is exposing here. In the last couple of strips Joe was basically all ‘ewww gay (male) stuff’ and now he’s all ‘yay lesbians’. This. Is. So. Gross. And so many straight dudes do this. And, like, you KNOW he doesn’t actually really care about lesbians either, he cares about lesbian porn and what that does for HIS stimulation and he is 100000% one of those dudes who’d say, if he met an actual lesbian couple, ‘can I watch?’
Downnnnnnn with jerkwads like this. Down. All the way down.
Ok yes maybe. He hasn’t actually explicitly stated ‘ewww gay boys’. But I don’t think thoughts like this are out of his wheelhouse. He’s all ‘manly-man man stuff of man-ness and man-itude’ and thinks feelings are gross. So. The potential is there. Just saying.
Where did he say that? I’d like to know how exactly he plans to lend his support. Today he was asked for some pretty basic support. A chat to help Danny sort out his confusing feelings. Joe refused to cooperate, and chastised Danny for even attempting to broach the subject.
Well, some of us read that differently … as Joe perceiving Danny as an endless source of dithering and needless drama and reacting in annoyance to that … but nonetheless Joe appeared to be saying he would hold Danny’s hand through (yet another) pointless angst fest if Danny told him what was going on … yes this was about as far as possible from an ideally supportive response, yes Joe is self-absorbed and can be a real jerk, yes Joe isn’t thinking about how incredibly scary and disorienting this could be for Danny, but Danny is far from blameless and from Joe’s point of view Danny has been crying wolf for ever …
I’d like to suggest that since we don’t know what Joe really meant or why he acts the way he does we should base any judgements on what he has actually done
Joe himself acknowledged that Danny hadn’t asked for anything like this from him in years. Not since he started dating Dorothy.
You may have read that as him saying he would hold Danny’s hand through this, (though in that case, shit or get off the pot), but at the very least it was far from explicit. Your personal interpretation of what you think was implied.
I just went back and re-read that page, I hope you will as well. I see Joe’s dismissiveness and jerkiness, I have no question that almost anyone in Danny’s place would have felt shut down and would not have continued the conversation. Joe being a jerk here is not in question to anyone with a shred of sense.
However, Joe said “I’m thankful that Dorothy got you off my case for years.” To me this strongly suggests that Joe thinks that Danny has been back on his case … so, whether it is justifiable or not Joe appears to be honestly irritated with Danny for being immature (yes I can see the irony:-) and wishy-washy … you make a persuasive argument for Joe being uncomfortable with male homosexuality … however, this is not the same as being a hate-filled bigot!
The whole point I’ve been trying to make is that we don’t really know what’s going on and a whole bunch of commenters are doing the ‘let’s hate on character X today’ thing and in the process showing disturbing little tolerance and empathy for characters that are different from them’ … note that is not aimed at you – while you clearly don’t like (and I believe misunderstand Joe), I know you haven’t been on the hate train …
I think the important point, regardless of whether Joe is a jerk or not (which isn’t really important), is that his reaction to Danny must be read as an expression of -their- relationship and personal dynamism, and not by lazily filing Joe under the most salient stereotype.
Yes, most straight men are more comfortable with (and may even like the idea of seeing) lesbian porn, but don’t like the idea of seeing male-on-male stuff.
And you know what? I see absolutely no problem with that.
A straight male finds the female body attractive. Wanting to see females doing stuff (sometimes with other females) would be expected. On the other hand, for straight guys, a man’s body holds no interest, so seeing 2 men having sex would at best be neutral, and worst be a turn-off.
As long as a straight male who thinks “don’t want to see gay porn” accepts that others don’t hold the same views, and that those who actually like gay male porn are not wrong in doing so, then there should be no problem.
I’m not talking about them not wanting to watch gay porn. I’m talking about them fetishizing girl-on-girl porn while being grossed out when actual gay men on the actual street do so much as hold hands. No one is forcing anyone to watch gay porn and that wasn’t my argument at all.
I’m a straight male. I would have no problem seeing 2 gay males holding hands. I would however be revolted/turned off/disgusted actually seeing them have sex. Not because I think its wrong (I totally support their right to engage in those activities), but because its so far outside of my normal desires.
There is a world of difference between witnessing something as mild as hand holding and full-on penetrative sex.
No, but the earlier poster was pointing out about a “double standard”, about how the stereotypical male likes lesbianism but finds man-on-man to be ‘gross’.
Never said anyone was complaining about Joe not watching enough gay porn; I was pointing out how there were rational reasons for being OK with lesbianism but not man-on-man sex.
No, they were talking about the double standard where straight men fetishize lesbians but get grossed out by the existence of gay men. It’s something that happens and it results in the rape and dehumanization of queer women as well as a lot of physical harm to queer men. It’s a real problem and nobody was talking about dudes having sex until you came in and brought that up. Please take some time to actually listen to other people and don’t be so quick to defend yourself over something nobody was accusing you of.
‘disgusted’, really? That’s the word you’re going with? …. dude.
Well, a cookie for you then for having the minimum requirement of human decency, I guess? Either way, I wasn’t talking about ALL straight men (gosh, why does this feel like a #notallmen type of conversation =/), I was talking about straight men who behave like Joe here behaves. Which I have encountered many, MANY of. No one is saying don’t go and enjoy your lesbian porn. I am a bi female and enjoy gay male porn. So. No one says anything about that. I’m saying there is a disconnect and a double standard. A lot of straight guys are homophobes but ‘ok’ with lesbians as long as they can get off to them. That’s the kind of guys I’m talking about. Which are the worst. Again, I *know* it isn’t all men. But a lot of them. Truly.
Yes, I used the word “disguisted”. Also used the word “gross”. However, those words were used in the most broad terms. Guess what? Not everyone is going to be able to watch each and every thing with some sort of detached clinical ability.
And you’re right… you never said “all men”. And I never claimed you were. I was challenging the notion that “its wrong to be in favor of watching lesbians but be ‘grossed out’ with gay sex”. (I assumed that was the point you were making long ago.)
I literally wasn’t talking about gay sex though. Nowhere in my original comment. I was just making the point that I think Joe probably has a problem with gayness in general, with talking about it and specifically with Danny maybe being gay.
Sure, Danny was talking about sex, but if someone’s a straight guy who is ‘grossed out’ simply by listening to a gay/queer friend talk about sex, then that someone is an a*hole, sorry.
@caesaria82: I think segnosaur is reacting to this:
“I’m not talking about them not wanting to watch gay porn. I’m talking about them fetishizing girl-on-girl porn while being grossed out when actual gay men on the actual street do so much as hold hands.”
1) Do you have some evidence for this being a common phenomenon?
2) What does this have to do with Joe?
Joe does seem to do this thing where with men it’ll be “Don’t go down that road Danny. You’re not gay are you, Danny? Why are you asking me to talk about these things, Danny?”
Where with women it’ll be “Hue hue hue. Let’s talk about lesbians, who obviously exist only for my pleasure.” thing, getting put out when it turns out the subject matter is like actual academic shit and not just the professor reading letters to Penthouse Magazine.
Keep in mind that the earlier poster did open things up by by referring to “many straight dudes” and “down with jerkwads”. So yeah, the conversation has extended beyond just discussing Joe.
But this does tie in to Joe… I think Joe is wrong for many reasons… showing up to class late and disrupting things, making incorrect assumptions about the content of the course (what, you’re talking about real issues instead of sicssoring?) I just don’t think he can be blamed for having a double standard for thinking “watching lesbians=hot, watching 2 dudes=gross”
@tyersome I can’t reply to you on the above thread, so I’ll quickly do it here.
1. Yes it is very much a real thing that I have very much really experienced. Homophobes who are seemingly ok with lesbians (but only for their own entertainment) are a very, very real thing. And very common, I really do believe that.
2. Do you not think Joe has been super weirded out by even the mere hint of a discussion about gay things? He’s clearly watched some lesbian porn (he knows about scissoring), but basically panics when Danny wants to talk to him about possible same-sex attractions. I don’t know what else to say, I’m repeating myself. My opinion has now clearly been stated multiple times. I’m going to bed now :p
Yep. Very much so. I’ve encountered no shortage of homophobes who are anti-gay-marriage, anti-anti-bullying initiatives, and full of slurs of d*** and f**, who nonetheless love lesbian porn and will relentlessly demand lesbians they encounter re-enact it for them (the first person who debated whether or not to kill me started out yelling for me and my girlfriend to put on a show for him (he turned to the murder route when he was informed by one of his car-mates that I was trans* and therefore “deceived his boner)).
There are a few studies that debunk the studies that go around saying that lesbians are more socially supported than gay men by noting it is only lesbian sexuality (when it is presumed to be for male attention and involve men) that is viewed more favorably and it becomes far less favorable when lesbian romance, lesbian love, or the notion of women having their own sex for each other, completely separate or indifferent to the libidos of men are brought up.
Essentially, lesbian porn (girl on girl as a show for usually a third male participant) is beloved by the exact type of guy who views it as genuinely threatening when a woman doesn’t “need” a guy and has no interest in catering to the guy’s libido.
Which is why accusations of lesbianism are so common among catcallers and PUAs who strike out with a woman and why most lesbians have a story where a man was very insistent that a lesbian woman just hasn’t found the right man or outright threatening to “fix” her with his penis.
Which is why corrective rape against lesbians is a) a thing and b) a common enough thing to be more or less universally understood to be a thing.
OK … well I’ve learned something … I guess I’ve been fortunately enough as an adult to avoid living in areas where that kind of evil insanity is actually common …
I still doubt that this is relevant to Joe, but I’m much more clear on why so many other commenters have such a … visceral reaction to his behavior …
The hovertext was changed from ‘pornlord’ to ‘the scissoring chapter is pretty short, it’s basically one page that says ‘yeah no’ with a footnote that adds ‘not really a thing’
Yeah, much like most sexuality, it’s a thing that’s tried occasionally and there are even a few that rather like it as a sexy-times activity, but it’s not nearly as ubiquitous as lesbian porn makes it seem. Ditto with strap-on sex (quite a bit more frequent than scissoring, but not nearly as universal or required as lesbian porn makes it seem).
No no it is not. Scissoring is not something that women actually do. Scissoring is something put in “lesbian porn” for the male gaze.
I have not met a single lady who screws ladies who has ever said that this is a real thing, myself included. What the hell is the POINT of scissoring? It’s not sexy, and it can’t get you off, unless you want to rub your clits together for the next five hours.
Idk, I’ve done it. I know quite a few people who’ve done it. Like once, maybe, to try it. Like I said above, I don’t think if you’ve done it once you’re likely to do it again, because yes, it can be hella uncomfortable and unsatisfying. Then again, I’m sure there’s people out there who actually enjoy it. There’s people out there who enjoy allllllll sorts of things, sexually, so why not that tbh.
Scissoring is definitely a thing that some queer women (like this one, writing this comment, right now) absolutely do. There! Now you have met a lady who likes it and does it, so you no longer have to insist that it doesn’t exist. Here is some other and perhaps wider commentary on scissoring, involving the viewpoints of more than one person: Autostraddle (NSFW).
I’m not going to argue that it isn’t also crammed into quote-unquote lesbian porn for dudes to look at, but so is girl-on-girl kissing and oral.
It is something some women have tried, perhaps no one you personally know, but even still, it’s a thing. Most that try it are new to lesbian sex and don’t really know HOW to do it, and like others have said here, it’s awkward and unsatisfying. Doesn’t stop it from being a real thing real women do.
I can’t say if it’s a real thing with humans, but when I was at the zoo I saw two female orangutans scissoring – no lies, took a few minutes to put together that it was actually happening and for one of the zookeepers to confirm.
It took SOO LONG for the biological community to admit that “yeah… there kinda are gay animals and that extremely sexual behaviour we see animals of the same sex perform is actually… sex.”
Indeed. I’ve learnt of lizards who are all female, “recreating” male/female sex with each other to start actually making babies. There’s a species of ape or monkey where the females basically control everything by sex! Got 2 males fighting? Couple ladies will basically jump their bones to calm them down. Another couple having problems? Make up sex, even if they’re same-sex. This is indeed a strange yet beautiful planet…
Damn! Talk about timing. Joy grow an empathy organ or something, you are coming off as a total jerkwad.
I know Joe has not been pretty 2 dimensional in DoA (yeah I know he is fictional, but you know what I mean, as in comparison to the others). But, he outside of being a product of a divorce and a sex maniac who hides his feelings-there has to be something more in there?
I get so pissed at Joyce, and here she is crying for here friend and I want to hug her.
Get smart Dorothy, Joyce and Becky – go to Leslie. Professor Bean can help you.
It seems to me that Joe and Joyce are having almost the same reaction, with Joe, being older and more worldly (and more Joe) deciding “Crap, don’t want to deal with this feels shit! Quick, say something offensive!”
Is Joe canonically older? I know he *looks* about 30, but is he not the same age as Danny if they’re childhood besties and then aren’t they both the same age as Joyce?
I think he’s physically the same age, having eaten paste with Danny at Preschool, however he may be “older” mentally having gone through different experiences, his parent’s divorce comes to mind. True, not in all respects, but in a few. I think smiling Cat might have gotten right, Maybe that comment was a defensive reflex…
And if so, it also demonstrates that just because you’re older (emotionally) and more worldly doesn’t mean you won’t endeavor to duck things you don’t think you can deal with.
Sigh, no edit. I meant that Joe “has been pretty 2 dimensional…”
Only problem with that Smiling Cat, is he didn’t appear to hear the lecture before he walked in. He may have been trying to blow off his feelings about his talk with Danny.
Well, it’s pretty damn stupid to say a sexual act “isn’t real.” If people can do it, they do it that way.
However, based on the limited anecdotal evidence at my disposal, tribadism is mostly a fun sideshow rather than the main attraction; it’s not something most lesbians do to achieve orgasm, or even use in typical sexual play since it’s so awkward usually.
Dammit, Joe! Scissoring was covered last week. This week will review fisting, bondage, and watersports. You will be expected to come prepared with your own Crisco, handcuffs, and tarps, and will not be allowed to borrow these materials from other students after the class has begun.
I really should have put this all in one post. However, I have to say that I have one parent that’s totally okay with me, and the other refuses to use my pronouns. Even that is extremely damaging, and I can’t imagine being one of the many that have no support.
“Also, studies have shown that lesbians who’s name starts with “B” and ends with “Y” and who refuses to eat lunch with their bests friends are especially at risk of being run over by a truck right… now.”
FINALLY we get to deal with Joe’s raging misogyny and homophobia. I’ve been irked for so long that he’s been presented as the more clueful and progressive of the Joe-Danny duo. I’d love to see a story in which a total jerkwad becomes less of a total jerkwad. That way I might be able to believe it’s possible in real life, too.
Joe’s just the subject of conversation today. While Walky’d dropped similar remarks I can’t recall them ever being the sole focus of a strip like this. Usually there’s other stuff going on and he’s sort of in the background being doofy.
In a strip where Walky’s faults are the sole focus it’s more extensively discussed in the comments.
Plus, honestly I do think the community gives him a lot of leeway for a variety of reasons. His often mean-spirited jokes are generally a hit with the audience. He had that whole introduction of getting adorably befuddled around Dorothy, then proceeded to become her caramel boy toy. Probably other stuff I’m not thinking of.
Here, Leslie is attempting to educate people on the discrimination that LGBT+ people face, and Joe is knowingly derailing the conversation to objectify lesbians and complain about her even bringing it up. Has Walky ever done anything that bad? Even if he has, he has also faced his own prejudices and admitted hard truths in order to listen to his sister (different axis of oppression in that case, but still), as well as attempted to be supportive towards the people he claims to care about.
Walky is still kind of a douchebag and he needs to cut out the ragging on Joyce, but he’s better than Joe as a person learning to overcome his own prejudices and as a friend.
Hmmm, rereading your comment, you’re being more specific and discussing a certain behavior, not their general character. I apologize. Sorry, I really should remember that I can’t edit here… I’m so used to platforms where you can, or can save drafts…
Mysogyny I get, but homophobia? We’ve never been given any indication that Joe believes homosexuality is wrong, that there’s anything wrong with homosexuals or that they should keep their affections hidden.
At most he’s been an insensitive asshole who doesn’t want to get involved in the emotional baggage people go through when uncertain about their own sexuality. While I’ve never come across a bigot who wasn’t a colossal jerk, I’ve met plenty of jerks who weren’t bigots.
His facial expressions when Danny broached the queerness topic didn’t exactly scream support and he definitely described the “self-discovery” as “excrutiating”, so it’s a reasonable assumption to make. He might not be the throwing gay people off of buildings type of homophobe, but he definitely has viewed it as feminizing and something that is partially threatening to his masculinity to engage with. Additionally, he clearly has really messed up views regarding lesbians and definitely sees the purpose of their existence to serve his sexual interests of being turned on by their sexual exploits which quite literally dehumanizes them. I mean, here he is demanding to be catered to his porn delusions while the class talks about the very real danger to their lives queer individuals face because reality is intruding on his porn fantasy of lesbianism.
That alone is a reasonable thing to point out as homophobia and at the very least, he has deep ignorances that are deeply dismissive and harmful to the queer individuals around him (remember he’s constantly perving on women in the class and fetishizing lesbianism in the class, how is that impacting any young lesbians in the class just trying to figure themselves out not to mention the other students who frequently get class interrupted to cater to Joe’s libido).
It’s something of a real problem owing to his ignorances on the subject.
Professor Bean is very understanding, but she should ask him to leave. Walking in late, announcing it to maximize the disruption, then responding the the professor trying to resume class with another disruption? Yah, she is more understanding than I would expect any professor to be.
I can see why she doesn’t ask him to leave though – she is cultivating a non-authority relationship with her class. It has advantages and disadvantages. She should ask him to sit down and be silent now, but a few seconds disrubtions like this is not a problem in her teaching style.
Given her previous interactions with the class, I could see this on most any other day being used to segue into a conversation on how the porn-world depiction of lesbians and their fetishization can have a negative impact on their real world safety, but given all the needs in that class, she has a wealth of options to choose on which direction to go.
Prof. Bean is a good teacher. The single biggest requirement of a “teacher” is a willingness to tolerate (to a certain point–past a certain point, it’s no longer deemed worth the effort, to try and teach anymore).
Simply being a professor requires you to be a professional (in which case “Joe, please leave the room now” is totally understandable)–a teacher is someone who expands your mind, or helps you start to expand it for yourself.
Joe is probably the single person in that room, with the deepest need for a teacher.
As a sidenote: Did anyone else initially think “Pornlord” was how someone was viewing him? Kinda like when you mentally insert “Child molester”, “Dipwad Supreme”, or something else under someone’s name, just to poke fun at them? I managed to miss the lettering on his shirt in the first panel, so it caught me totally by surprise.
Joe’s need for a teacher shouldn’t allow him to disrupt everybody else’s learning experience.
Dude didn’t even bring anything to take notes. This classroom is full of people willing and eager to actually use Leslie’s services, and they’re sitting here listening to Leslie recap to the late asshole who’s shouting about sex positions.
It would be a disservice to everybody else not to send Joe on his way so that the class can get back on track. He can come back next lecture prepared learn if he’s so inclined.
Leslie’s not a one on one tutor. She’s got the group to think about.
The statistics get even more horrifying if you limit that down to just looking at trans* statistics, like horrifying to the degree that trans* kids with supportive parents are something of a shocking rarity and a lot of people just sort of accept a relationship of “well, they haven’t thrown me out or hit me yet, so…”
Have I said how much I love Dorothy?
Everyone: YES.
Anyway, look at her. She doesn’t say anything because it is in the middle of class but her whole body language scream support, openess, willingess to help. I’m here for you, Joyce, and for Becky, it says. I WILL help you in any way I can.
Unfortunately there’s the whole atheist problem. You can probably count the number of successful openly atheist politicians in the US on the fingers of one hand.
Former US Congressman Pete Stark is openly atheist. Barney Frank admitted to being an atheist after he quit. It’s been claimed by a couple of different sources that there have been a couple dozen or so members of Congress in the last few years who actually are non-believers, but won’t admit it publicly out of fear it will damage their careers.
Joe’s been a bit character since Day 1 and he got lots of praise for his sex positivity and that time he told Walky off for thinking he was girly for owning multiple pairs of shoes, but unless we see some development soon I’d say he’s going to end up pretty hated.
Pretty much. Joe’s definitely one of those characters that face plants on his own privilege a lot and very much expects women, LGBT individuals (especially women who love women), and others to conform around to his desires and needs and has no idea of what kind of culture he is creating for those around him.
He’s very much the type of personality that could very easily end up in later life drifting in the PUA/MRA direction if he had a dry spell and couldn’t use sex to avoid introspection and you see that in his use of elements of their culture (putting number values to women, seeing acquiring sex as a game of worming his way around a woman’s values (see his sliminess before the Joyce date, which was forgotten because of how abusive she and Mike were to him during it), and not respecting individuals who do not want constant meaningless sex (the way he is cruel and dismissive to Danny or the way he’s been dismissive of Joyce or women who won’t sleep with him)). Additionally, he may reject arguments that random clothes make one a man, but he definitely believes that his “notch count” makes him more of a man than those around him and felt threatened and knocked out of whack when Danny brought up the possibility of non-straight identities (look at his facial expressions when he brings it up and when he asks Danny if he is gay) and clearly views emotions, relationships, queerness, and other things traditionally deemed feminine to be toxic to his worldview of himself and to be something of an attack of his self-image.
He’s essentially awful right now and can become downright dangerous in the future or can mellow out and do some introspection and become the sort of almost all right dude he was at at the end of the Walkyverse.
But he’s definitely going to need some smackdowns to his worldview along the way as he has no idea how toxic his constant objectification of women and sexualization of everything and his avoidance of depth are to those around them.
Okay, I’m really not seeing Joe in any of this. If anything, it sounds like you’re dumping every mysogynist archetype on top of him because he’s proven he fits a few.
For the record, I’m not trying to dispute the fact that Joe is a reprehensible character, but he’s not the monster so many comments on this site is turning him into.
And a large point I want to make is that being misogynistic isn’t a death knell of whether or not he can be a good person. In fact, it’s a really easy worldview for a young insecure man to be sucked into and which is frequently reinforced by the world around them. Hence why it could be dangerous if he is not shaken from his current path to a sexually adventurous path that isn’t so based in the language of predation and disrespect to his partners and potential partners.
Joe can easily become better, but right now, he’s doing things that aren’t really okay at all and which make him someone who objectifies women, fetishizes lesbians, disrespects his women’s studies class, and is not as strong at consent as he likes to think himself as (Sarah basically had to scream at him in a public place to get him to stop creeping at her in addition to all the other stuff). It’s just where that character is and needs to work through (like Walky’s weird gender and racial hangups, Joyce’s internalized sexism, or how Dorothy worked through her immediate response to lean towards slut-shaming with Roz). And I think there will be an interesting tale in that.
Since you ask, “just curious” does not constitute a clause in and of itself. Try replacing it with, “I’m only asking because I’m curious, but does anyone…” et cetera or, “I’m just curious: does anyone…” et cetera.
According to the “Favorite Character” poll over there on the right, Joe isn’t faring too well, but he’s still ahead of Leslie. What’s up with that? Maybe we just haven’t seen enough of Leslie for her to win people over.
I find Joe a hard character to love *or* hate. He simply is. He doesn’t want to get caught up in the meaningless drama that he’s so accustomed to having around him (thanks Danny!) but he’s not out to actively hurt people. He’s out to enjoy his life and his overall attitude reflects that. He really felt a gender studies class would be nothing more than talking about chicks. He’s getting a dose of reality setting in that actual issues will still come up, and he should learn to separate fake issues like Danny’s from real world troubles.
For anyone else, yes it could be. But we’re talking specifically about Danny, and that’s not what’s going on with him. Danny is just such a failure at processing any sort of positive contact that he turns anything that isnt downright abuse or negligence *into* love, and as his only male friend seems to be Joe, that makes Ethan the first time he’s had another male treat him with genuine niceness. Danny, being Danny, immediately mistook the feeling of having someone boost his self esteem with feelings of attraction, because he is just that screwed up. I strongly suspect that some deep down part of Joe subconsciously knows that’s what would happen if he ever tried to directly boost Danny up outside the one attribute Danny has boiled him down to mentally.
So in short Danny isn’t confused. Danny is a !@#$% idiot.
I do, he’s far more likable than half the other cast members people like. people around here just love being judgemental bongoes and take turns loving then hating characters.
You aren’t. Plenty of people are thinking that, I just don’t understand why that’s supposed to be a good justification for how much of an asshole he’s been lately.
It’s not like there’s any rule that mandates you go on some kind of “What? That’s not sexy! Lesbians are supposed to be sexy!” bit if you want to consult the professor or a fellow student after class.
Could’ve just, you know, sat down and let the lecture resume like a normal human being who knows the people here haven’t gathered to hear his hacky stand-up routine. Maybe throw out a simple “Thanks for bringing me up to speed” if he feels socially obligated to respond to Leslie’s statement.
As stated in a cracked article about pedophilia today, understanding something isn’t the same thing as condoning it. Assuming Joe is using his cavalier disregard as a cover and a coping mechanism doesn’t mean it isn’t a shitty assed coping mechanism.
That would presume that Joe would ever willingly initiate a heavy emotional conversation where he would have to admit the vulnerability of ignorance and value someone else’s opinion over his for a time in order to grow, which does not seem to be in evidence. It’s much easier for him to dismiss that which he sees as challenging to his worldviews, enforce his porn fantasy view of the world on the conversation (see his answer to the movie question where he responded to the first explicitly feminist work mentioned with a pornification of it).
So no, I don’t really see it going any further for this by his initiation. I can definitely see someone else dragging it out of him especially if his worldview keeps on being challenged like this.
Joe’s response to hearing about the genuinely horrifying facts that LGBT kids have to face from the people they’re supposed to trust the most in life is “lol scissoring.” This really isn’t a debate or anything at this point. The guy’s acting like a total chode because he wants his college experience to be laser focused on getting laid.
I didn’t say he wasn’t a jerk, I said there are people who say Joe isn’t a jerk (source: the comment threads for the last few days). Joe most certainly is being a jerk, and this latest comment of his only reinforces that, but there are sympathetic reasons for his actions that some people wish to ferret out.
Personally, I think Joe is being a jerk and that being a jerk is inexcusable, but not unforgivable. When Joe gives a heartfelt apology for his various jerky-times and attempts to properly make things better for Danny, I’ll be on his side. Until then (and yes, I know “then” might well be “never”) I’m not on his side and not holding my breath.
I don’t think I said Joe wasn’t being a jerk, just that his jerky behaviour is sympathetic and doesn’t ruin his character.
Everyone in the cast has their flaws and coping mechanisms Joe’s is no more or less irritating and damning than anyone else’s. The only question is which behaviours people have a higher tolerance for.
Not in the sense of understanding his hardships, because he didn’t have any obvious hardships to understand (and seems eager to keep up that appearance). But in the sense of considering him to be a generally decent (though by no means flawless) human being? Yes.
At his best, he’s been like a case study on how to be a flirtatious and promiscuous dude without being a creepy douchebag. And here, he’s being a creepy douchebag.
The scissoring lessons might not accomplish much, but they’re still more useful than the papering lessons.
The ROCKING lessons, on the other hand, usually end with a burning guitar and the whole class holding up lighters and throwing their underwear at Leslie.
Poor Joe is trying to enjoy his freedom from his father’s control and the non-stop hedonism of high-school. Sadly, depressing facts are getting in the way of that. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with just enjoying life as long as you don’t hurt anyone, though, which Joe never does.
Everybody has pretty much agreed that Joyce is thinking about Becky after hearing these stats. But unknown to her, these stats could carry a double-whammy. She doesn’t know about Joshua/Jocelyne.
What do you suppose will happen when she finally reveals herself to the parents?
I don’t think Jocelyne ever will reveal herself to her parents. She seems to have chosen not to, and it’s not hard to imagine why.
Personally I got the impression she was some kind of self sufficient adult living in some other city anyway though. Either living off her writing or with some kind of day job. If I got that right then I’m sure it’ll sting to lose family but she’ll be equipped to just stop taking her parent’s calls.
I gotta say I feel like some of this Joe hate is transference. There are much worse people even among the main cast whom we love, but because Joe is kind of a frat boy people start pretending he’s that jerk who stole their lunch money in the third grade. Same thing with Mike honestly. They are jerks certainly, but at their cores they are both pretty solid people. Excluding Dina and Becky I’d say most of the case are worse as people than Joe and Mike, but because their personalities are outwardly abrasive people add in a lot of traits that really aren’t a part of their character. A neither of their characters haven even really been defined in this universe, and B they were both much better as people compared to a lot of the cast in the last one. I mean I kinda get it I’d say Willis designed their characters to be based off of people who in similar stories are typically villains; kinda like how in any other story a character like Mary would be a protagonist instead of a huge jerk. This was a much longer post than I intended I just wanted to say that recently this comment section has been pretending it’s Youtube, and just being huge jerks rather than the awesome people who all love Willis’ work like it should be.
I’m gonna be honest this version of Leslie reminds me of actual gender studies teachers I’ve had and that ain’t a good thing, they were petty and kinda pretentious
>that awkward moment when Willis changes the alt text because originally he implied scissoring wasn’t a real thing and got smacked down in the comments
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Joe, you clod, no teacher wants to go over material you already know inside and out
Joe is an expert on scissoring?? O_O
Well yeah, by watching enough porn ANYBODY can be an expert on scissoring.
Just as long as he learnt not to run while doing so.
Okay, that makes me feel a little better. And a lot more like Crazy instead of All Hail.
I’d say “Weird”, more than “Crazy”. And add a “Yankovic” at the end. And, maybe, change your name. 🙂
BAH! NO! LOL, no. I am not Wierd Al.
Yeah, but, “Running With Scissors”.
Yup, would hate to poke an eye out.
Well yeah, by watching enough porn ANYBODY can be an expert on scissoring..
I knew it! Daniel the Human tried telling my otherwise, but I thought I knew better. Not to figure out how to tell him those words “I told you so”, without getting magnets thrown at me…
See: Pornlord.
Well, yeah. Everyone should be. That’s like the first thing you learn in kindergarten arts and crafts.
He learned it while he was eating paste with Danny.
Guys can scissor! I- if they want to.
Oh god, Joe.
Oh Joe, you always know the right things to say
jesus joe. I am hoping you’re headed for some character development because yeesh
This actually seems like a good sign. We followed his perspective here right from the whole Danny deal, and this seems to be drawing his attention to how serious that can be, even though he’s refusing to admit it.
There’s honestly no way Joe could develop as a character that would make me stop disliking him.
Same here. He’s much more of an asshole in this ‘verse than in the old.
Not really. He was pretty horrid in the old verse too, at least during the “Roomies” and “It’s Walky” eras.
“Come to think of it Danny you don’t have a sister” Ohysically kicks Danny out of his party.
So all this time I thought he was overcompensating for his gay thoughts, he was really just a jerk?
Plenty of people are jerks. Get over it.
No way, Walkyverse!Joe literally chased women who were running away to verbally harass them. I realize that this isn’t exactly a high bar, but yeah, at least this Joe leaves women alone if and when they aren’t into being leered at.
The old ‘verse Joe did not understand consent in college.
Does it seem like Joe is intentionally trying to create a non-threatening world around him by alienating everyone who could force him to confront his personal issues with his family?
We know that the divorce is a soft spot, we know he really doesn’t like talking about emotional issues. We know he really doesn’t mind being despised by people who focus on emotional relationships.
And here the teacher is talking about a very sensitive issue regarding broken family life, and Joe wants none of that.
I don’t know if this is where Willis wants to go, but it is more than possible that Joe is heading for some kind of tipping point where someone confronts him on his shallowness and immaturity. Personally I’m rooting for Mike to be an asshole in a way that breaks Joe.
I’m waiting for Walky to call him out on being immature. That will give it just the ferrous undertone it needs.
I Fe what you did there.
Isn’t it ironic, don’tcha think?
I steel don’t get the joke.
I would ENJOY watching the current Joe get kicked in the dick til he learns. Currently his attitude just… It ruins everything, really. I get that he’s trying to avoid drama as hard as he possibly can, but his attitude just causes tons more for those around him. it’s selfish and he should know better.
False. Mike would never allow his assholishness to possibly benefit another human
Really? Mike seems to make his assholishness benefit most people. Didn’t he kinda seal Dorothy and Walky? Bring out Joyce’s problem after the rape? Keep Amber from choosing to go meaner in fear of becoming like her dad? Get Dorothy to tell her ex-boyfriend about Walky?
That’s typically how Mike always uses his assholishness. It almost always benefits someone; I’m just assuming Willis’ fanbase has gotten younger than it used to be. None of them seem to understand characters that have layers.
Well, even if you are an asshole for good reasons (or w/e) that still makes you an asshole.
Basically if a good writer were to have a character give a Reason You Suck Speech it would involve calling him out on how he’s obviously intelligent, quick witted, observant as well as having high standards when it comes to people not fooling themselves, others, being hypocrits and true to themselves. He could EASILY just talk to people and TELL them what they are doing wrong but he CHOOSES to be a jerk about it. Embarrassing them, hurting them, manipulating them. The fact that he isnt “just a jerk” could be seen as making it worse. Since rather than just being a simple, violent, selfish person, he’s a good person who chooses to make everyone miserable.
I love him as a character, but the fact is he’s an asshole.
Yea i think its pretty obvious from the last discussion that Joe is fully capable of understanding complex human interaction, but for “some reason” he puts up a big shield focusing on his own sex life and basically talking to people via the filter that he is comfortable expressing, because he doesnt like emotional stuff.
My guess would be that his home was very emotional during the divorce but during school he put up a big front for Danny either because he didnt want to burden him or he didnt want to be pities.
Highly likely this was influenced via his father.
id walk right back out the room if i didnt think i would get failed
It would be interesting to see Joe’s take on homosexuality.
“Its super lame because now there are few chicks to hit on”
“Yea, but that also means that there are fewer dudes to compete with.”
“…….Touché.”
I believe Joe supports all forms of people gettin their sex on. It’s asexuals I’d really like to see him confronted with.
Agreed on Joe’s stance on sex. If it’s consensual and enjoyable, do whatever. Not sure about confronting him with asexuality however. Trying to wrap his head around that might launch him into a mental meltdown and put him in a coma.
Oh so I guess Danny didn’t end up coming out to Joe huh? Also panel four 🙁
It’s pretty hard to come out if you don’t know what you’re coming out as or even if you’re sure you need to in the first place.
Yeah coming out was probably the wrong way to describe it. But I guess the conversation pretty much ended where we saw it and Danny didn’t actually admit what he’s been experiencing which is pretty realistic but I can’t say I’m not disappointed. I want him to be able to actually vocalize what he’s feeling and for someone ANYONE to let the kid know bisexuality is a thing that exists. Plus god he’s so stressed about it. It would have probably been such a weight lifted to say what he’s feeling out loud.
I feel like this about so many of the characters. That they all need to be told it’s ok what they’re feeling and that they’re gonna be ok. But it’s like that old joke that if everyone in the cast of DoA went to a therapist or a support group or something, the whole comic would be over :p
Maybe College is just one group therapy session. You’re introduced to new ideas and ways of thinking, so you can try a few on. But you’re also introduced to other people who feel and think different ways and even the same way you do, so you can work through your issues with them. By the time you come out of college, there’s a good chance of there being a brand new you upon graduation.
Every kid in every college everywhere EVER needs that. God knows I did. If someone had taken 15-year-old me by the hand and said, “You know, you’re not actually a freak, it’s okay to like boys as well as girls,” then the next 8 years of my life would have been a hell of a lot less, well, like hell.
Honestly, it’s an extremely realistic look at college and those who go to it. How many people actually talk about what they need help with?
I think Joe worked out that Danny wasn’t completely straight from their conversation and that part of his reaction here is anger at being confronted with the unfortunate truth that LGBT stuff isn’t all scissoring and fun and that that truth can be applied to Danny too.
Well said!
I’m really glad I’m not the only one who thought this. I mean, I don’t like Joe much, but he’s not completely horrible. He does care about Danny, obviously. He just wishes Danny would quit making his own life so complicated. Or, that’s the vibe I always got. I mean, the way he sees, it, he does things the simple, easy way, and he’s happy. If Danny would just do the same, he wouldn’t have so many problems.
Joe can’t escape the Stuff.
Also I chose the wrong day for this particular Rei grav.
Possibly. Or it could be laughing at Joe for thinking there would be actual classes about lesbian sex…
Stuff is in the air. Everywhere you look around.
Is that a licensed shirt sold by the Dumbing-verse’s David Willis?
I couldn’t find any clothing in the online store, but apparently webcomics have sold recreations of clothes worn by their characters, as well as ones with quotes…
Maybe if someone asks, Mr Willis will give it a thought…
Found this one…
http://instagram.com/p/yh5zbltlFC/
Joe you dumbass!
Leslie used the cold harsh truth of reality. It’s super effective.
Joe used Inappropriate Comment. It’s amusingly ineffective… 😛
… at breaking Joyce, apparently.
Oh come on. When it comes to the real world Joyce snaps like a dry twig
I’m hoping on the bandwagon. Joe you are such an ass.
That hits home for Joyce. :-/
Yeah, seriously. But it’s really important for Joyce to know that her friend is in societal danger. I really want Leslie to notice Joyce’s reaction and talk to her after class, but that would involve a wise adult doing smart things, so unlikely to happen.
But this isn’t real life! This is a comic! That means it could still happen!
In real life, I hope that it would happen! I’m pretty sure that my professors would notice and quietly address this after class with a student who was having this reaction to the material, even just to let the student know that they’re supportive. But it wouldn’t be good storytelling to have Leslie swoop in and solve everything.
… My suggestion was that it wouldn’t happen in real life, not that it would happen in real life.
It very well could happen in real life, humanities oriented professors in particular tend to be sensitive to their students and I’ve seen/had professors talk to me to let me know they are there to talk when they’ve noticed that I have found particular material to be emotionally charged.
Huh. I wonder what my new English teacher is going to think of me then. After all, I wrote a two page response on the topic of Evil, and I’m not sure how deep my other responses will be. Probably not that deep though.
Maybe it wouldn’t be good storytelling. Maybe. But maybe it could be interesting to watch characters struggle in life despite accepting help from others. If an author tries too hard to protect and preserve problems the story can get way more stale than if problems resolve themselves “easily.”
Well, Leslie IS one of the smarter characters (in the Other Universe)… but to be fair, it’s harder to pick up on individual student reactions when a pornlord walks in
She can’t miss Joyce’s big blue tears, can she? In any case, Leslie is not “dumbing of age,” she’s grown and smart and she’s Becky’s best chance!
Leslie totally has pamphlets in her desk about student counseling resources and the local PFLAG chapter and the numbers for phone helplines and also chocolates and hugs for any student who needs them.
On the other hand, awesome teacher though she is, Leslie has been shown to be disturbingly weak-kneed at the very thought of a certain DeSanto sister.
Just because she’s a fangirl doesn’t mean she’s not smart and grown. Certain topics have always turned her into a big puddle of jelly. Early on, crushes. And babies.
Miss them? No.
Distinguish them from Joyce’s reaction to the devil-spawned socially liberal propaganda she encounters on any other day of class?
Yes. I’m pretty sure the big blue tears don’t come out for those (after all, liberals feast on fear and sadness! best not make their job any easier by showing it!).
Regardless, Dorothy both knows and cares about the source of those tears. If she doesn’t approach Leslie after class (with Joyce in tow) and tell Leslie about this (I know, I know, she’d be outing Becky, but it’s the lesser of two evils here) I will be sorely disappointed.
Me, too. It comes down to whether Dorothy will feel like she’s betraying a trust (justifiably) or not.
Given the speed and volume that Becky has been outing herself, I don’t think Joyce and Dorothy outing her to a teacher Becky hasn’t even met yet in order to secure assistance through her current situation is going to be a concern.
Does IU have any satellite campuses? If so, there might be some people who haven’t heard yet.
I agree. And so far, Leslie has shown herself to have a pretty level head in this universe too (except when Robin is around). I think the big question is whether Joyce trusts her enough. With a secret like that, she has to be very careful about who she turns to for help.
I don’t see Leslie giving special attention to a woman who gets freaked out fairly regularly and has built a supportive cushion of friends already. It’s the quiet loners who need help more.
And then, afterward they would all stand on their desks and say “oh captain, my captain”
I can’t tell what Dorothy’s doing in the third panel. Opening a box? Holding up bread?
Fourth panel, gah.
Trying REAAAALLY hard to open a jar of relish
Don’t worry Dorothy, I can’t open them either.
Holding on to the chair as she looks back on Joyce hearing the painful statistics.
I’m pretty sure she’s turning around in her seat to look at Joyce. The part that looks like a box is the back of her chair.
Yeah – I think the positioning of her fingers in front of her boob is throwing off the sense of depth there.
It’s her chair.
Yup, that was my interpretation, it’s the back of her chair, she is using it for leverage to turn around to look at Joyce.
He looks like he’s about to crack. Maybe that’s just me though.
Like I think he’s just putting on an act.
definitely
I’ve never noticed Joe much before, but I think I might really dislike him.
Dammit, why does everyone hate Joe? Sure he’s a sex addict, and he doesn’t want to deal with any of his problems, but he’s a decent guy. He cares about his friend, he leaves girls alone if they want to be left alone, he kind of got used by Roz, and he’s a harmless comic relief character (for now). I seriously do not get why everyone hates him. Will someone please explain it to me?
…cares about his friend except when his friend, like, *needs* him or something.
It’s not that he didn’t care about his friend. He just wanted his friend to find someone else to give him the comfort he needed. Time spent talking about feels is time wasted when he could be masturbating.
Exactly! Just because you can’t be bothered to deal with your friend’s troubles and emotional baggage, does it mean you don’t care about them? XD
I don’t mind Joe and find him refreshing at times (especially when Danny’s being wishy-washy), but strips like this dont paint him in a flattering light.
It’s for the same reason people don’t like criminals and drug addicts. They’re so focused on the bad stuff they can’t see the humanizing qualities and just demonize the heck out of them. In Joe’s case, the haters see horndog+general jerkiness to Danny.
On top of all that, this is the Internet. Everyone’s gonna have haters (and likers, but more importantly haters).
But some have to work harder at it than others. All Joe has to do is be himself ^^
Do people hate Joe? I don’t hate Joe, but it seems like he’s being extra insensitive here. “God damnit, did we skip the chapter on scissoring” is suuuuuper inappropriate and Joe knows it. This is something I’d expect from Mike, but not Joe, you know?
There are so many Joes in this world. I hate them all.
Can’t we just castrate those jerks? so that their hormones will stop from having rage?
Or you could look past their surface, the mask they’ve created to deflect having to deal with deep emotions and protect themselves from being hurt.
Nope, sorry, we’re too busy being tolerant to actually deal with anyone who makes us uncomfortable …
I don’t follow…
Sorry, my sarcasm got a bit thick there … I allowed my frustration at the strain of hypocritical “I expect to be treated with tolerance and respect by people who out of ignorance are made uncomfortable by my actions, but I think we should visit violence on someone who I haven’t even tried to understand for making me feel uncomfortable”.
Joe is behaving really badly, but he hasn’t attacked anyone or even shown any inclinations towards intentionally hurting anyone and yet now we are ritually castrating him … I guess I’m kind of sickened by it all …
Regardless of the backstory, entitlement is entitlement, and the aura of it should be stopped from it source. I would admit that I was harsh on the castration part. Probably shame their attitude would be enough.
I am against bodily mutilations of all kinds, but I like where your head’s at. Maybe there’s a less violent alternative. But yes. Make them all go away somehow. That’d be…. very blissful.
We should take the Joes and push them somewhere else!
As a guy named Joe, I covered my jimblies reflexively.
Pornlord sounds like a Borderlands boss.
This made me laugh. Indeed it does!
Just like Joe I came here tonight thinking that we were going to avoid further dramatic topics for at least one page, my reaction to getting the exact opposite is FUCK !
I still real bad for Becky but I bet she wouldn’t want to hear this right now either so still FUCK!
Feel, (forget a Damn F and auto correct makes you its bongo)
Make autocorrect YOUR bongo and turn it off.
while we’re on the subject of sensitivity, can we stop using “bongo” as a perjorative instead of ONLY to describe actual female canines
I mean, is it really so difficult is all
… apparently things change when the top dog is away …
Oddly enough when I use the word bongo/bongoing, it’s either in the context of 1/(bloody awesome), 2/(complaining) or 3/(you got pwned).
I am so onboard with this suggestion! There are plenty of perjoratives, can’t we let bongoes just be female dogs…
*feels around with tongue*
I don’t get it – why would a female insult her teeth?
(get it canines wah wah)
Your asking me to move mountains here man.
Any one can move a mountain; they just have to do it one molehill at a time.
And now the molars? What have women got against their teeth??
lol you’ve been readin’ the wrong comic bruh
This is drama sprinkled with comedy, not the other way around (the comedy is prett damn good, though).
It really ought to be called a “dramatic strip”.
… What is Dorothy doing?
Looking back at Joyce with concern.
It looks like she’s holding the back of her chair while she turns around towards Joyce.
That’s what I figured, but I was having real trouble getting my brain to resolve it that way. Looking at it on a different screen, it’s obvious. I’m not sure why. This screen is actually smaller…
It could be the pixels in the smaller screen match up better with the pixels being displayed. I noticed that some comics look much better at different levels of zoom on my laptop.
Joyce is learning about Becky’s possible fate if shit goes down badly.
And she wanted to take Becky to this class too
If it had been a lecture hall, Becky could have listened in without any worries.
I highly doubt Leslie would tell. In fact, she’d probably construct an entire lesson plan around Becky being there if she knew ahead of time.
That might have been pretty cool but I wouldn’t put any good money on that happening.
‘Cause Becky messed it up.
Becky probably could have listened in anyway. Mike only got booted when he was disruptive, after all, and he’s not in this class.
Mike sat in on the class previously, and Leslie didn’t do anything about it until it became apparent that he was only there to poke at Walky.
And also possibly an unstated reason Ethan might want to stay in the closet.
Too late for him. Can’t put that cat back in the bag.
the internet may never know
How conveniently topical!
not unlike ointment.
That’s rub-ish!
well now, that oozed with creativity.
Gender Studies class is like the News Channel in any other fictional universe, it is 100% guaranteed to be topical to your life the moment you tune in to it.
Watch out for nosebleeds.
Kick him out of the class, Leslie Badpun.
Do it now.
Joe’s going to be like this until someone cracks open his shell and talks about his parents.
Joe is such an asshole.
Its not a DoA Gender studies class if someone isn’t being an asshole
You know, with the title of today’s comic, I thought this was going to be funny.
I was so unprepared.
Kinda misleading too.
Let me see if I can do this right …
Willis uses irony, it is super-effective.
Bet Joyce is glad Becky didn’t come to Gender Studies class now.
Good God Joe?!! Subtlety is not in your arsenal.
But wow is stubblety ever…
Is stubblety used for shadowing?
No, but maybe vice-versa…
Wow, the subject matter relates to the lives of more than one (two if we assume same familial circustances as in Walkyverse) person in that room.
No escape from the Drama Llama.
Joe is being a bigger prick than usual. This time I think some punishment is in order. Crushing his genitals in a vise should do.
oooooo
No, sledgehammer
Good lord, people! D: He’s not Blair/Ryan/Becky’s dad!
Give the guy a break; probably about 99.8% of what he knows about lesbians (or more) has been picked up from porn. Porn aimed at straight men, at that. I mean, the shirt he’s wearing even references it!
He’s not arguing that queer kids deserve that ill-treatment or asserting they’re going to Hell and need to stop being gay or anything; he’s just an immature (by which I mean “not fully-adult mentally”) guy who was anticipating an enjoyable topic only to be let down. It’d be like some kid anticipating the upcoming lecture on puppies to be adorable and awesome, only to be hit with info about puppy mills and animal cruelty.
I mean, sure, he’s being insensitive and tacky; but that hardly deserves more than a smack upside the head, if that.
^This. Joe can be a jerk, but he has his good qualities too. Right now, we’re just seeing Joe raise his defenses after being blindsided by ‘stuff’ again. Not the best way to handle the situation, but certainly not the worst either.
I concur. Let’s go smack him upside the head! 😀 Me first!
Need I remind you that Willis being on vacation does not give us all a free pass to be jerks. Quite the opposite actually, if “the incident” a few days ago is any indication. And that goes for everyone down here.
Joe made an unfunny joke in order to pretend that he doesn’t have emotions that can be affected by the horrible statistics Leslie’s dropping on him. You’re advocating that he be tortured and mutilated for this.
Someone here is being an enormous prick, but I’m not sure that it’s Joe.
Joe walked into class late. Declared in a loud and disruptive manner that he was late. Interrupted the lecture in progress to request he be caught up to speed on what he’d missed on account of is lateness. All in Panel 1. Then, somehow he just gets worse in the panels that follow.
yeah he’s 3 for 3 in a row so far in “comics where joe is an ass”
Oh man, Leslie hasn’t even gotten into the suicide statistics yet (especially of kids whose families reject them). Holy shit this stuff is so awful you guys please start a thread of puns or something.
Sooo… what should we start punning about?
I dunno, scissors? That could help cut the sadness.
All the hate elsewhere is sort of putting me off, but …
maybe people can’t help being snippy?
We’d better be careful here and not go running with this.
Was that … a pointed remark?
There’ll be sharp words if we’re not careful.
I agree, it all hinges on how we handle this.
It borders on shear chaos, I tell you.
At least the puns are flowing at a fair clip.
I’d suggest cutting out the pun train considering the topic of the class, but that said, I wouldn’t want to be the 1 who makes it grind to a stop…
I am going to CUT this sadness down to size!
Thank you so much, everyone, I love you all. <3
Blokes like Joe annoy the hell out of me.
In the minority, i know, but I love Joe… and he’s going through some Stuff right now. Panel 3? Those horrible, painful, facts just got all tangled up in his convo with Danny and the hamster running on the wheel inside his head doesn’t even know what to do. Thus, Joe reverts to his default persona — sexist jackhole. (This isn’t a much different reaction than when Joyce wanted to call Becky’s dad to solve Becky’s school issues. Becky laid down some hard facts. Joyce’s inner hamster got confuddled on the wheel. She reverted to form: “There are other dads…”)
Exactly. It’s actually getting disturbing how many people here are wishing bodily harm on him for what is such an obvious defensive mechanism.
You realize the wishing of bodily harm upon him is also a defensive mechanism, right? Being in a comment thread on the internet doesn’t make you a better person.
Fair enough, but it doesn’t excuse it either … timemonkey is drawing peoples attention to the fact that a vocal subset of the commenters here are acting in a way that to me seems even uglier than Joe at his worst …
This may seem like an overreaction, but I feel like the pattern of commenting here can be very similar to online bullying and normalizes that behavior. [/rant]
Being in a comment thread on the Internet means you have the opportunity to step back, reassess your reaction to something, see how others are reacting, and determine whether or not your knee-jerk reaction was an appropriate one or not, all before “saying” it by posting.
Joe walked into a situation and had a classroom full of eyes waiting for his response in the moment.
I think both timemonkey and Ken have a valid point – assholish behavior, both in-comic and RL, doesn’t make someone evil, it means they’re in pain.
Joe seems very isolated and withdrawn right now. Not surprisingly, a string of casual sexual hookups can leave a person craving emotional connection, and he’s not getting a lot of that, right now (even from Danny, who’s mainly focused on his own problems – notice that Joe’s reaction to Danny’s uncomfortable question was “why aren’t you supporting me?”). He’s acting out, looking for attention, and what’s worse, i don’t think he even realizes it.
Count me as part of that minority. Joe says some really stupid things, but his heart’s in the right place.
And it doesn’t hurt that for all his philandering he’s considerate of the girls he pursues and takes ‘no’s gracefully.
I’m part of the minority, too. I like Joe, and I want to see him get some real development.
“His heart is in the right place”. Mayyybe? For all he seems to listen to it, might as well be in Fort Knox.
I really, really don’t agree with this. Joe has mocked Danny over his breakup with his long-term girlfriend, started a fight with him over choosing not to have sex, and responded to his sexuality crisis by angrily complaining about Danny’s feelings. I don’t see any reason to assume that Joe is worrying about Danny here and not just annoyed that someone is harshing his buzz again. Even if he is… oh no, poor Joe, he’s so upset over the horrible suffering of LGBT people, that it’s okay for him to crack a joke objectifying lesbians? “Gosh, the discrimination towards you upsets me so much that I’m not obligated to do anything about it or even refrain from complaining about you talking about it and mocking you.” That doesn’t make sense. Reasons are not excuses.
Joyce and Amber have done similar things (“there are other dads”, “I’m too exhausted from supporting you to hang out with you”), Joyce is still prejudiced even with the massive progress she’s been making and has fucked up a lot, but they also have done things to be supportive. Both of them have intentionally, actively worked to lighten the burden on their gay friends. I don’t care what guilt or worry Joe might hypothetically be feeling until he actually does something positive about it.
+1
+1000
and until he does some of that “non-ill intentioned and whole-hearted” positivity towards others, he doesn’t deserve our emphathy with his backstory as an excuse, especially IRL when we might not know about it.
Oh good. More Joe focus. What I always wanted.
The sarcasm is strong in this one.
I like how Joe was the one scolding Walky for his overly strict gender roles and Danny for disrespecting Billy’s ability to consent, but he’s also been an asshole over and over. Like, he correctly pointed out to Danny that Billy can make her own choices about whether or not to have sex, while yelling at Danny for choosing not to have sex. Criticizing his reasoning is one thing, but he literally described himself as “angry” because Danny didn’t have sex even before Danny was making assumptions about Billy. Even as a third party, you can’t disrespect someone’s choices like that.
Just like Walky and Sal’s mom is an important depiction of a racist who isn’t blatantly hateful and obvious, I think Joe is an important depiction of a very common species: the feminist sex-positive cis man “ally” who is totally open-minded as he disrespects people for not having sex and will not spend one jot of emotional energy to actually support LGBT+ people or people whose sexual lives don’t look like his. He’s come to a certain point of progressiveness and will not go one step further. Contrast with Walky, who’s all “I don’t own too many shoes because that’s girly” but is willing to take actions and make choices that are hard in order to support his sister, friends, and girlfriend.
I’m not saying Joe is a monster. I’m not saying he’s irredeemable or that he has no reasons to be the way he is. I’m not saying he’s always wrong. I’m not saying he has no good qualities. But I really, really don’t like him right now and I want the camera to turn to someone else.
can Leslie please just counsel half the cast. I know that like all humans she has limited willpower and can’t shoulder all their burdens, but please, some time in office hours with Professor Bean would do so much for Joyce and Becky and Danny and Ethan.
^ This. With a big ol’ +1 to go with it. Thank you. (And I don’t love Joe all that much, but I do give Willis credit for drawing three-dimensional characters . . . )
Post script to this: Joe is making me appreciate Roz sooooo much right now. I know she was joking around in that one scene with Riley when she was rattling off orientations, but I think it reflects a deep personal desire that Riley know and internalize from a young age what her “options” are, so she’ll never have to feel scared and alone like Danny does now. Roz loves sex and would probably describe herself as “sex-positive” and her expression of that is to actively spend her time, both as a Planned Parenthood representative and in her personal life, helping people get educated and access birth control/STI prevention so they can feel safe and comfortable about sex. Roz isn’t perfect but I feel so positive towards her right now.
Roz (and maybe to a lesser extent Dorothy) is probably the only person in this whole cast who I could actually see myself being friends with if they were real people – and what you just listed are among the biggest reasons for that. I love her an absolute ton.
Well said. As everyone else in this crowd Joe has a real personality with real inconsistencies. He aspires to an ideal that is not perfect and which he does not always manage to live, but he tries.
Oh this is not good. Not good at all.
Sweety, shush. This was obviously a response to a question asked in-class by sweet, sweet Dorothy.
And sweet ignorant Joyce, SPIT IT OUT ALREADY!!!! HERE IS THE FIRST WOMAN, MAN OR CHILD IN THIS CONTINUALITY WHO CAN ACTUALLY HELP AND YOU ARE COMPLETELY BLOWING IT!!! DON’T YOU GET IT?!?! BECKY NEEDS HELP FROM SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT THE FRELLING BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP IS GOING ON!!!!!!
And JOE: SHUT UP! PROGRESS!!!! GAH! HOW OFTEN AM I GOING TO HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU “GOOD” GUYS THAT YOU CAN’T JUST INTERRUPT A MASTER PLAN IN PROGRESS?!?!?! GROW A BACKBONE ALREADY AND ACCEPT THAT EMOTIONS MATER, AND THAT LESLIE JUST SAID THAT TWO THIRDS OF THE ENTIRE LGTB SOCIETY DON’T GET TO HAVE NICE LIVES LIKE THE REST OF YOU, AND THAT THE ENTIRE NON-YOU COMMUNITY IS FORCED TO DEAL WITH THINGS THAT YOU CAN’T POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND, MUCH LESS FIX WITH A LITTLE SEX!!!
Yes, I spoke to Joe twice. Get over it.
Someone let you out of your chair-box.
Also, read the comments. These people know Joe was out of line. Yelling here won’t touch him. Unfortunately, that’s a good thing. But you seriously need to calm down.
Why are you scolding yourself? You have the same IP address and everything. I would appreciate it if you would just type what you’re genuinely thinking and not RP with yourself.
1. You see my IP? YIKES!
2. Sadly, both are what I think. I deal with it all the time: I feel the need to type or say one thing, but then I talk myself out of saying it because it feels too mean or otherwise wrong. I don’t know any better way to go about expressing both sides of myself – the one that cares about the issue and what is going on and the one that cares about how my words affect others, as well as what they say about me.
3. Is there a better way to deal with 2? Keeping up two personas is not easy, but like I said, I don’t know any other way of dealing with the conflict.
I would recommend letting the two halves fight it out and reaching a consensus before shouting multiple paragraphs in caps all over the website. You’re not required to post every thought that comes to your head as you’re having it. You can give yourself five minutes to sort things.
I have tried to do that in the past (Mostly in real life and on facebook), but that doesn’t really stop the buildup. Usually what waiting means is that I fall silent – internalizing the feelings instead of ever getting them out – kinda like what happened to Joe (and EXACTLY what is fueling All Hail Dina right now). I know a happy medium would be best, but I don’t have any tools to achieve that yet. (Honestly, what more do you expect from a high-school student with no life? Seriously, your characters haven’t even figured it out yet, and they are in college! [Okay, well maybe Joyce has a trick or two up her sleeve, but you haven’t exactly shared it yet.])
If you have any tools for figuring out how to sort it out in my head without merely internalizing my emotions and opinions, then I might give it a shot. If I would just be doing exactly what I am already doing where my name (and thus relationship with my schoolmates and extended family, a good majority of them having a near exact perspective on life) is tied to, then I’d rather not attempt to apply an already failing strategy to where I am more comfortable expressing what I actually think and feel. It just isn’t worth isolating myself or putting more stuff into my “bad things” box.
Although it probably would be more worth it to internalize that stuff if I at the very least got to be a superhero because of it.
Sounds like you need a journal, my friend.
I’ve tried that. Multiple times. And failed. It’s one of the most common things people do, yet somehow I just don’t seem able. Maybe its because of the “when they happen”. Or maybe I put my “bad” box up too high and generally toss my bad feelings in. That way, the “bad” box only opens up when I throw something in and it all comes crashing down, so I can’t access it when I’m trying to use the journal.
Sorry, this kind of comment is really meant to stay within “All Hail Dina”. I haven’t exactly gotten a handle on separating them yet. The angry/hurt/inappropriate/mean stuff is supposed to stay on the OTHER username so that it remains under control.
Hey, Daniel Here. Sounds like you may have some problems you could do with some help sorting out. I’ll admit, I not expert, but it sounds like talking to the school counselor could help. Or if the school counselor doesn’t feel right, I know in Australia at least there are free call centers to help people, with special services for younger people such as Headspace (which this links to), that are more than happy to help. And if you think you’re alone, just remember you’re not the first to go through something like this, there are others who’ve survived it & are willing to lend a hand.
Perhaps a hobby, finding something you enjoy, could help too? Something that helps me keep my head screwed on right when it gets a bit too erratic & random from lack of use is indulge my love of giant robots. Transformers, Evangelion (my introduction to actual Anime), Gundam (“real robots”, good stories too) are the higher ranking ones, all helping me focus my mind on 1 thing. I At 1 point, I was literally having seizures for no medical reason anyone could find, spent a week in hospital cause of it, but when I got a Warhammer 40,000 rule book & started processing the rules, background & scenarios in it, they stopped immedietly! My brain wasn’t getting anywhere near enough stimulation, so it just “shorted out” for lack of better wording. Haven’t played in years, but I keep my mind busy. Maybe doing something can help you out. After all, All work & no play makes Jack a dull boy, don’t want anyone going all Shining on us…
Look, if you have something, ANYTHING, I’m willing to try it. But otherwise, I’m going nuts in here, and will try everything and anything to figure out who I am, break the silence I have built up for years, and to give the parts of me I’ve had to hide from others a voice. I tried to give you warning of this when I posted that “Please don’t block my “All Hail Dina” notice. I don’t know what I’m doing and I’m not comfortable with it myself, but I have to try something, or I’ll actually turn evil. Like I said, if you have anything, I’ll try it, but if I try to just “wait five minutes”, I’ll become purely silent. All Hail Dina is meant to get me to say what I want to say, and when Crazy Dina scolds All Hail Dina, it just shows why I don’t.
How about you have All Hail Dina write the original post, but then let Crazy Dina edit it into the finished version? You know what I mean? Use the AHD side of yourself to express the emotions/thoughts you want to share, but then let CD edit them down out of capslock rage (*grin*) into something calmer and easier to read that nevertheless still expresses what AHD wanted to share?
If you find you’re ambivalent on a subject, it’s perfectly acceptable to say so and give the reasons for it, like for example, “I have to admit, I’m of two minds about [subject]. On the one hand, [reasons for]; but on the other hand, [reasons against]…” None of us feel 100% about everything, every time. 🙂
Tried that one too. Crazy Dina usually just deletes it.
If she doesn’t, she navigates away, effectively doing so.
And despite actually typing it out, it often feels the same as just thinking it out, then repressing it. I really wish I knew what the frell is wrong with me.
I second the idea of looking into counseling, but in addition to that…
Have you ever tried writing fiction? When I try to write, say, a blog post of what I really think about something, I’m always caught up in the back and forth of “Well, I think this, but I also think the exact opposite of it, so let me backtrack into that…” and then that all gets muddled. (Partly, I need to get better at finding a voice I’m comfortable with for blogging.)
But fiction doesn’t have that problem for me at all. In fiction, you can write a character who believes certain things absolutely, and you can write a character who believes things that totally oppose that. You can make them fight it out, you can make interesting stuff happen to them, and you can make them learn things about themselves and each other. The story as a whole can express many ideas, even if the individual people in it never see the whole picture. Speaking as a person who overthinks everything, I love writing fiction, because finally, finally, all of the things can be true.
It may not be your thing, but you might give it a shot. It’s pretty fun. =)
I could send you a hand full of my attempts at writing fiction, if you’d like. have a few names, even some with some sections written out. None of them went anywhere though. 🙁 Same result as the journals.
You’re not one of those head-mates people are you?
Umm… I don’t exactly know what you are referencing. If you are referencing the fact that I seem to be split into two: an extremist who really cares about how she feels, and an intellectual who really cares about what she says, then yes, I am one of those “head-mates people”. If you mean I really am two people, I honestly can’t say either way. All parts of me have had the same experiences, read the same literature, and lived the same life. If there are really two people in here, then either one is extremely repressed, one of them only exists in a fantasy world I built for myself (entirely plausible, because I do have a fantasy world in my head at all times) or the differences are not strong enough to be particularly obvious. Both halves of me would have to be thinking at the same time, unless one is reacting to the other. I suppose that’s possible, but I don’t know if that is or is not the case.
I was thinking more of the lines of this: Tumblrisms Headmates
Do you have something like that in article form? Not only do I have my Flash turned off right now, I have to charge my headphones.
http://sjwnewspeak.tumblr.com/post/73525605704/headmates
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=HeadMate
Here are some I found by googling.
Okay, I took a look. It’s not like that. More like I’ trying to use two separate identities to figure out what is going on in this one.
At least I think it’s one. During certain types of meltdowns, it does feel like I loose control of my body, so it’s possible it’s like a virtual-machine situation, but it’s definitely not the switch-main-profiles these people were saying they experienced.
I have a friend who does what you do, maybe. He has 5 personas that he uses to sort his thoughts. Is that what you mean? It’s not like he’s separate people, it’s like he separates out id and ego and…I don’t know what else, “stuff” as Joe says…to process better. Anyway, instead of posting to the forum as two different people, maybe you could record these thoughts in a Word document as a dialogue? That might be easier and more helpful for you than a linear-style journal. You describe AHD as “say[ing] what you want to say,” even if that’s “inappropriate/hurt/mean,” and CD as “scold[ing]” and “repressing it,” and it sounds like posting in a public forum is making it harder for you to accept both of them as…well, you. Writing on your own might help you let them work together instead of fighting.
That… actually is a decent idea. So I give a voice to both sides privately, then try to turn that dialog into a single post which combines both instead of overrides both. Not as interesting as keeping an evil persona, but that would force both out and make it possible for me to say everything I want to say, but differently.
Also, nice to know I’m not the only one trying this tactic. Give him a high 5 for me please, and tell him it’s for giving his friend a clue on how to help me.
He lives in another city, but I texted him a high-five, so it’s all good. Hope it helps a little!
Oh no, Joyce. I can see her entire worldview just further melting down around her.
Maybe she’ll go to Leslie for help? …please?
*help with what to do with Becky and her situation, since I wasn’t clear.
I’m really hoping so. I really take after Sarah’s “talk to an adult who knows their shit” attitude, but if not then I guess there’s still Ruth? She’s nice to people out of her jurisdiction anyway ….
Does that mean that LGBT children have something like a 2 in 5 chance of having parents that don’t totally suck?
No, that’s just the parents who kick their kids out. A lot of crappy parents of LGBTQIA+ folks just won’t lay off. They try to get their kids to question their sexuality and/or gender identity, they berate their kids, or a wide range of crappy behaviors. I feel guilty for talking about my family in LGBTQIA+ spaces because I got really lucky, and I know so many more people who weren’t so lucky. Most can still return home, but don’t want to because of the treatment they know they’ll get. So 2 in 5 is WAY too generous. I would guess that the actual rate of LGBTQIA+ folks getting good, fully-accepting and supportive parents is closer to 2 in 100.
Okay, I forgot that the abusive parents are dealt with in the strip, but 2 out of 5 is still FAR too generous.
Okay, I know how twisted what I’m about to pose will sound, but please bare with me.
If more than two out of five of the LGTBQIA+ come from messed up parents, what exactly does that say? Is it an overall trend of bad parents, or is there something seriously wrong in that these are mostly people coming from bad homes?
Now that I’ve suggested that horrible idea, I have to seriously ask, why would this be? Why aren’t more of them coming from healthy, supportive homes?
Because a “healthy, supportive home” is encouraged to be horrible to queer individuals?
I mean, my childhood was relatively all right, but my parents went full bigot when I came out as trans* as an adult including pulling the whole disownment and corrective therapy cards.
And I do want to note that although you didn’t intend to, you did accidentally sidle up to a rather unfortunate argument that messed-up families cause queerness, which is rather demonstrably not the case (plenty of queer individuals come from happy supportive families and they have less of a likelihood of suicidal ideation or other trauma as a result).
Additionally, I know this is tangent of your point, but it may be worth pointing out that the suicide rates and bullying rates against queer youth is not endemic to being queer, but rather a reflection on how our society views queer individuals and the lack of social and familial support those youth face.
Actually, the first part of the post “Okay, I know how twisted what I’m about to pose will sound, but please bare with me.” was because I knew full well that that argument was going to sidle up to that argument, despite being a very real correlation that probably needs to be looked into. IF my personal speculations are right, although they have little to no actual data to support them, we should see a historical trend along those families, but if not, then that correlation still needs to be explained somehow.
I fear what could be causing it.
The data doesn’t necessarily imply a correlation at all. It may simply be (and probably simply is) that X percentage of parents would be horrible bigots to their kids if their kids were LGBT. Only a relatively small percentage of kids are LGBT, ergo straight kids whose parents are bigots aren’t usually forced to confront the fact that there parents *could* have been horrible to them. (Parents who would be abusive regardless of their kids sexual identity or orientation are left out of this equation.)
Nothing in this implies that abusive behavior caused the kids to be LGBT. I think the most likely conclusion is simply the obvious: while great strides have been made, there are still way too many people who have a problem with LGBT people.
And, of course, the other thing I have to say is:
The idea that LGBT issues are pathological or caused by pathological circumstances is a very old, very discredited, very damaging idea. It’s simply not how this works, and LGBT people have been fighting that stigma a very long time. It is hurtful, and it is factually wrong.
Families ARE getting better. Parents are more likely to treat their LGBT kids supportively and well today than they were in the past. If abuse somehow “caused” people to become LGBT, then growing acceptance would lead to fewer LGBT people. Instead, greater acceptance has led to more LGBT people visible, because more people are able to come out and find communities that accept them. That in itself disproves your correlation.
As the strip points out, we’re very very much not done with bigotry being a problem. But things are improving, at least a little.
I said correlation, not causaltation. You seem to be arguing with my saying that one caused the other, like the studies showing that ice cream caused polio. That is not the case. Instead it was a correlation, (Ice cream sales were indeed up during the time that polio was infecting the most) caused by the fact that both Polio and Ice Cream were more popular in the summer.
Can we just talk about the beautiful example of double standard Willis is exposing here. In the last couple of strips Joe was basically all ‘ewww gay (male) stuff’ and now he’s all ‘yay lesbians’. This. Is. So. Gross. And so many straight dudes do this. And, like, you KNOW he doesn’t actually really care about lesbians either, he cares about lesbian porn and what that does for HIS stimulation and he is 100000% one of those dudes who’d say, if he met an actual lesbian couple, ‘can I watch?’
Downnnnnnn with jerkwads like this. Down. All the way down.
Joe really seemed more, “Damn it, Danny, are you bringing serious shit into this relationship”
but yes to jerkasses who only treat others as fetish material
Ok yes maybe. He hasn’t actually explicitly stated ‘ewww gay boys’. But I don’t think thoughts like this are out of his wheelhouse. He’s all ‘manly-man man stuff of man-ness and man-itude’ and thinks feelings are gross. So. The potential is there. Just saying.
And yet, he has like five or six pairs of shoes. 😉
That’s a pretty harsh reading since he’s explicitly said that he’d support Danny if his friend were gay.
Where did he say that? I’d like to know how exactly he plans to lend his support. Today he was asked for some pretty basic support. A chat to help Danny sort out his confusing feelings. Joe refused to cooperate, and chastised Danny for even attempting to broach the subject.
Well, some of us read that differently … as Joe perceiving Danny as an endless source of dithering and needless drama and reacting in annoyance to that … but nonetheless Joe appeared to be saying he would hold Danny’s hand through (yet another) pointless angst fest if Danny told him what was going on … yes this was about as far as possible from an ideally supportive response, yes Joe is self-absorbed and can be a real jerk, yes Joe isn’t thinking about how incredibly scary and disorienting this could be for Danny, but Danny is far from blameless and from Joe’s point of view Danny has been crying wolf for ever …
I’d like to suggest that since we don’t know what Joe really meant or why he acts the way he does we should base any judgements on what he has actually done
Joe himself acknowledged that Danny hadn’t asked for anything like this from him in years. Not since he started dating Dorothy.
You may have read that as him saying he would hold Danny’s hand through this, (though in that case, shit or get off the pot), but at the very least it was far from explicit. Your personal interpretation of what you think was implied.
I just went back and re-read that page, I hope you will as well. I see Joe’s dismissiveness and jerkiness, I have no question that almost anyone in Danny’s place would have felt shut down and would not have continued the conversation. Joe being a jerk here is not in question to anyone with a shred of sense.
However, Joe said “I’m thankful that Dorothy got you off my case for years.” To me this strongly suggests that Joe thinks that Danny has been back on his case … so, whether it is justifiable or not Joe appears to be honestly irritated with Danny for being immature (yes I can see the irony:-) and wishy-washy … you make a persuasive argument for Joe being uncomfortable with male homosexuality … however, this is not the same as being a hate-filled bigot!
The whole point I’ve been trying to make is that we don’t really know what’s going on and a whole bunch of commenters are doing the ‘let’s hate on character X today’ thing and in the process showing disturbing little tolerance and empathy for characters that are different from them’ … note that is not aimed at you – while you clearly don’t like (and I believe misunderstand Joe), I know you haven’t been on the hate train …
I think the important point, regardless of whether Joe is a jerk or not (which isn’t really important), is that his reaction to Danny must be read as an expression of -their- relationship and personal dynamism, and not by lazily filing Joe under the most salient stereotype.
Yes, most straight men are more comfortable with (and may even like the idea of seeing) lesbian porn, but don’t like the idea of seeing male-on-male stuff.
And you know what? I see absolutely no problem with that.
A straight male finds the female body attractive. Wanting to see females doing stuff (sometimes with other females) would be expected. On the other hand, for straight guys, a man’s body holds no interest, so seeing 2 men having sex would at best be neutral, and worst be a turn-off.
As long as a straight male who thinks “don’t want to see gay porn” accepts that others don’t hold the same views, and that those who actually like gay male porn are not wrong in doing so, then there should be no problem.
I’m not talking about them not wanting to watch gay porn. I’m talking about them fetishizing girl-on-girl porn while being grossed out when actual gay men on the actual street do so much as hold hands. No one is forcing anyone to watch gay porn and that wasn’t my argument at all.
I’m a straight male. I would have no problem seeing 2 gay males holding hands. I would however be revolted/turned off/disgusted actually seeing them have sex. Not because I think its wrong (I totally support their right to engage in those activities), but because its so far outside of my normal desires.
There is a world of difference between witnessing something as mild as hand holding and full-on penetrative sex.
Literally nobody is condemning Joe for not watching enough man on man porn.
Or anybody for that matter. Everybody’s free to partake as much or as little as they like.
No, but the earlier poster was pointing out about a “double standard”, about how the stereotypical male likes lesbianism but finds man-on-man to be ‘gross’.
Never said anyone was complaining about Joe not watching enough gay porn; I was pointing out how there were rational reasons for being OK with lesbianism but not man-on-man sex.
No, they were talking about the double standard where straight men fetishize lesbians but get grossed out by the existence of gay men. It’s something that happens and it results in the rape and dehumanization of queer women as well as a lot of physical harm to queer men. It’s a real problem and nobody was talking about dudes having sex until you came in and brought that up. Please take some time to actually listen to other people and don’t be so quick to defend yourself over something nobody was accusing you of.
‘disgusted’, really? That’s the word you’re going with? …. dude.
Well, a cookie for you then for having the minimum requirement of human decency, I guess? Either way, I wasn’t talking about ALL straight men (gosh, why does this feel like a #notallmen type of conversation =/), I was talking about straight men who behave like Joe here behaves. Which I have encountered many, MANY of. No one is saying don’t go and enjoy your lesbian porn. I am a bi female and enjoy gay male porn. So. No one says anything about that. I’m saying there is a disconnect and a double standard. A lot of straight guys are homophobes but ‘ok’ with lesbians as long as they can get off to them. That’s the kind of guys I’m talking about. Which are the worst. Again, I *know* it isn’t all men. But a lot of them. Truly.
Yes, I used the word “disguisted”. Also used the word “gross”. However, those words were used in the most broad terms. Guess what? Not everyone is going to be able to watch each and every thing with some sort of detached clinical ability.
And you’re right… you never said “all men”. And I never claimed you were. I was challenging the notion that “its wrong to be in favor of watching lesbians but be ‘grossed out’ with gay sex”. (I assumed that was the point you were making long ago.)
I literally wasn’t talking about gay sex though. Nowhere in my original comment. I was just making the point that I think Joe probably has a problem with gayness in general, with talking about it and specifically with Danny maybe being gay.
Sure, Danny was talking about sex, but if someone’s a straight guy who is ‘grossed out’ simply by listening to a gay/queer friend talk about sex, then that someone is an a*hole, sorry.
It’s not like these were sexually explicit conversations or anything. Danny put out the general idea of occasionally wondering about other genders.
Right now he’s just walked into a class where lesbianism is among the list of topics possibly being discussed.
@caesaria82: I think segnosaur is reacting to this:
“I’m not talking about them not wanting to watch gay porn. I’m talking about them fetishizing girl-on-girl porn while being grossed out when actual gay men on the actual street do so much as hold hands.”
1) Do you have some evidence for this being a common phenomenon?
2) What does this have to do with Joe?
Wow, I certainly picked a good day to sleep early rather than stay awake for the update. You seem to have had a …. productive discussion tonight 😉
I think you may no longer be reacting to the Joe character …
Joe does seem to do this thing where with men it’ll be “Don’t go down that road Danny. You’re not gay are you, Danny? Why are you asking me to talk about these things, Danny?”
Where with women it’ll be “Hue hue hue. Let’s talk about lesbians, who obviously exist only for my pleasure.” thing, getting put out when it turns out the subject matter is like actual academic shit and not just the professor reading letters to Penthouse Magazine.
+1
Keep in mind that the earlier poster did open things up by by referring to “many straight dudes” and “down with jerkwads”. So yeah, the conversation has extended beyond just discussing Joe.
But this does tie in to Joe… I think Joe is wrong for many reasons… showing up to class late and disrupting things, making incorrect assumptions about the content of the course (what, you’re talking about real issues instead of sicssoring?) I just don’t think he can be blamed for having a double standard for thinking “watching lesbians=hot, watching 2 dudes=gross”
@tyersome I can’t reply to you on the above thread, so I’ll quickly do it here.
1. Yes it is very much a real thing that I have very much really experienced. Homophobes who are seemingly ok with lesbians (but only for their own entertainment) are a very, very real thing. And very common, I really do believe that.
2. Do you not think Joe has been super weirded out by even the mere hint of a discussion about gay things? He’s clearly watched some lesbian porn (he knows about scissoring), but basically panics when Danny wants to talk to him about possible same-sex attractions. I don’t know what else to say, I’m repeating myself. My opinion has now clearly been stated multiple times. I’m going to bed now :p
Yep. Very much so. I’ve encountered no shortage of homophobes who are anti-gay-marriage, anti-anti-bullying initiatives, and full of slurs of d*** and f**, who nonetheless love lesbian porn and will relentlessly demand lesbians they encounter re-enact it for them (the first person who debated whether or not to kill me started out yelling for me and my girlfriend to put on a show for him (he turned to the murder route when he was informed by one of his car-mates that I was trans* and therefore “deceived his boner)).
There are a few studies that debunk the studies that go around saying that lesbians are more socially supported than gay men by noting it is only lesbian sexuality (when it is presumed to be for male attention and involve men) that is viewed more favorably and it becomes far less favorable when lesbian romance, lesbian love, or the notion of women having their own sex for each other, completely separate or indifferent to the libidos of men are brought up.
Essentially, lesbian porn (girl on girl as a show for usually a third male participant) is beloved by the exact type of guy who views it as genuinely threatening when a woman doesn’t “need” a guy and has no interest in catering to the guy’s libido.
Which is why accusations of lesbianism are so common among catcallers and PUAs who strike out with a woman and why most lesbians have a story where a man was very insistent that a lesbian woman just hasn’t found the right man or outright threatening to “fix” her with his penis.
Which is why corrective rape against lesbians is a) a thing and b) a common enough thing to be more or less universally understood to be a thing.
OK … well I’ve learned something … I guess I’ve been fortunately enough as an adult to avoid living in areas where that kind of evil insanity is actually common …
I still doubt that this is relevant to Joe, but I’m much more clear on why so many other commenters have such a … visceral reaction to his behavior …
Dude, not to take away from the moment in this comic, but… That shirt… Wow, just wow….
I wonder if Dina also has THAT shirt… 😀
No, but Amber might.
Will “Sweet Lesbian Facts” be the title of the next DoA book? 😉
I… could live with that. Don’t think I can come up with any jokes about it, but I could live with it.
No, it needs to be, “Exactly What You Just Said, But Without The Sarcasm”.
Yes. That one’s a real gem – assuming it would land in the next book, of course.
It can’t be. The next DoA book won’t contain this strip. The book after that on the other hand…
The hovertext was changed from ‘pornlord’ to ‘the scissoring chapter is pretty short, it’s basically one page that says ‘yeah no’ with a footnote that adds ‘not really a thing’
and it kinda is a thing, too. i mean, maybe not that widespread, i don’t know, but i know that some do it.
@notlegato
Hehe, “widespread”.
… Ok, I will show myself the door ->[]
Yeah, much like most sexuality, it’s a thing that’s tried occasionally and there are even a few that rather like it as a sexy-times activity, but it’s not nearly as ubiquitous as lesbian porn makes it seem. Ditto with strap-on sex (quite a bit more frequent than scissoring, but not nearly as universal or required as lesbian porn makes it seem).
And then it was changed to: “the scissoring chapter is kinda awkward and it often doesn’t accomplish much”
Changed again to “the scissoring chapter is kinda awkward and it often doesn’t accomplish much”.
I don’t think I could do scissoring, if only because I’m pretty sure I’d accidentally kick my partner in the face.
Regarding alt text: Actually it is a real thing, but it really shouldn’t be. It’s super awkward and cumbersome…
It is a thing and I feel like everyone tries it, like, once but very rarely do people then do it a second time xD
No no it is not. Scissoring is not something that women actually do. Scissoring is something put in “lesbian porn” for the male gaze.
I have not met a single lady who screws ladies who has ever said that this is a real thing, myself included. What the hell is the POINT of scissoring? It’s not sexy, and it can’t get you off, unless you want to rub your clits together for the next five hours.
Saying something about sexuality doesn’t exist is pretty ignorant.
Especially if your argument is “nobody I know does it.”
Idk, I’ve done it. I know quite a few people who’ve done it. Like once, maybe, to try it. Like I said above, I don’t think if you’ve done it once you’re likely to do it again, because yes, it can be hella uncomfortable and unsatisfying. Then again, I’m sure there’s people out there who actually enjoy it. There’s people out there who enjoy allllllll sorts of things, sexually, so why not that tbh.
I have. Though they agreed that it was awkward, tiring and unsatisfying, and wouldn’t try it again.
Scissoring is definitely a thing that some queer women (like this one, writing this comment, right now) absolutely do. There! Now you have met a lady who likes it and does it, so you no longer have to insist that it doesn’t exist. Here is some other and perhaps wider commentary on scissoring, involving the viewpoints of more than one person: Autostraddle (NSFW).
I’m not going to argue that it isn’t also crammed into quote-unquote lesbian porn for dudes to look at, but so is girl-on-girl kissing and oral.
Huh, I have definitely heard of women scissoring, but this is the first I’ve heard of someone liking it. Thanks for sharing!
It is something some women have tried, perhaps no one you personally know, but even still, it’s a thing. Most that try it are new to lesbian sex and don’t really know HOW to do it, and like others have said here, it’s awkward and unsatisfying. Doesn’t stop it from being a real thing real women do.
I can’t say if it’s a real thing with humans, but when I was at the zoo I saw two female orangutans scissoring – no lies, took a few minutes to put together that it was actually happening and for one of the zookeepers to confirm.
Here in this comic, Daisy seems to think it is a real thing with scissors.
I’m actually pretty confident it’s a human real thing, if not as prolific as most media would have you believe.
Yeah, I’d suggest changing this alt text a bit when the opportunity arises. NBD, though.
Looks like it’s been changed. Alt text is now “the scisoring chapter is kind of awkward and it often doesn’t accomplish much”
Whoo! 😀
It took SOO LONG for the biological community to admit that “yeah… there kinda are gay animals and that extremely sexual behaviour we see animals of the same sex perform is actually… sex.”
Indeed. I’ve learnt of lizards who are all female, “recreating” male/female sex with each other to start actually making babies. There’s a species of ape or monkey where the females basically control everything by sex! Got 2 males fighting? Couple ladies will basically jump their bones to calm them down. Another couple having problems? Make up sex, even if they’re same-sex. This is indeed a strange yet beautiful planet…
Suggested reading:
http://www.amazon.com/Biological-Exuberance-Homosexuality-Diversity-Stonewall/dp/031225377X
Interesting, but I doubt I’ll get it. Daniel the Human don’t like me spending his internet money…
Damn! Talk about timing. Joy grow an empathy organ or something, you are coming off as a total jerkwad.
I know Joe has not been pretty 2 dimensional in DoA (yeah I know he is fictional, but you know what I mean, as in comparison to the others). But, he outside of being a product of a divorce and a sex maniac who hides his feelings-there has to be something more in there?
I get so pissed at Joyce, and here she is crying for here friend and I want to hug her.
Get smart Dorothy, Joyce and Becky – go to Leslie. Professor Bean can help you.
Hiding his feelings implies there is something to hide. I suspect there is something more there that we haven’t seen.
Agreed.
It seems to me that Joe and Joyce are having almost the same reaction, with Joe, being older and more worldly (and more Joe) deciding “Crap, don’t want to deal with this feels shit! Quick, say something offensive!”
Is Joe canonically older? I know he *looks* about 30, but is he not the same age as Danny if they’re childhood besties and then aren’t they both the same age as Joyce?
Maybe, probably now that I think about it. Still more worldly.
Being more worldly than Joyce is kind of like being more shapely than a scone.
These are all college froshes, so they should be about the same age. I don;t think Joe’s any older than Danny or Joyce.
I think he’s physically the same age, having eaten paste with Danny at Preschool, however he may be “older” mentally having gone through different experiences, his parent’s divorce comes to mind. True, not in all respects, but in a few. I think smiling Cat might have gotten right, Maybe that comment was a defensive reflex…
And if so, it also demonstrates that just because you’re older (emotionally) and more worldly doesn’t mean you won’t endeavor to duck things you don’t think you can deal with.
And both for the same reason. Joyce is worried about Becky, Joe is worried about Danny.
Sigh, no edit. I meant that Joe “has been pretty 2 dimensional…”
Only problem with that Smiling Cat, is he didn’t appear to hear the lecture before he walked in. He may have been trying to blow off his feelings about his talk with Danny.
He got to hear a horrible part and it resonated with his talk with Danny. He’s got two ways to deal with that and an image to maintain, so….
In my headcanon, you wear that Pornlord shirt to bed, Willis.
Joyce, don’t eat your entire lower lip. You’ll spoil your dinner.
That was incredibly apropiate XD
Aww Joyce T.T It’s okay honey, it’s okay just try keep Becky’s back so she can figure things out 🙁
I love Joyce’s face.
Joe reminds me of a guy I knew in the Navy. In fact, he reminds me of quite a few.
The statistics are really sad. It gets me so mad people will do this to other people for being different.
Wow Joe, that was a little cold. In character, perhaps, but still.
Scissoring is not really a thing? And why do you know that? Do you have a technical consultant for the lesbian Slipshine stories?
I actually know a couple of lesbians who get kinda pissed off when people suggest that tribadism isn’t real.
Well, it’s pretty damn stupid to say a sexual act “isn’t real.” If people can do it, they do it that way.
However, based on the limited anecdotal evidence at my disposal, tribadism is mostly a fun sideshow rather than the main attraction; it’s not something most lesbians do to achieve orgasm, or even use in typical sexual play since it’s so awkward usually.
I am neither a homosexual, nor a lady, so I only take the homosexual ladies’ word for it.
I figure they know what’s up.
Dammit, Joe! Scissoring was covered last week. This week will review fisting, bondage, and watersports. You will be expected to come prepared with your own Crisco, handcuffs, and tarps, and will not be allowed to borrow these materials from other students after the class has begun.
That sounds more like his class with Penny.
can we please stop focusing on joe, his jerkassness is becoming truly insufferable
As a member of the last two parties, I can relate. It’s not a situation that I would wish on anyone.
Meaning “BT” of “LGBT.” Just in case that wasn’t clear.
I really should have put this all in one post. However, I have to say that I have one parent that’s totally okay with me, and the other refuses to use my pronouns. Even that is extremely damaging, and I can’t imagine being one of the many that have no support.
For a moment, Joe reacted like a normal human being would to those statistics. Unfortunately, that moment was short-lived.
Evading negative emotions through jokes? No, that looks pretty normal to me.
I wonder if Joe skipped the chapter on STDs as well? I think he’d better, uh, bone up. Just in case.
“This is *precisely* why I do my goddamn best to stay away from real world facts, you jerks!”
Why has Joe stolen Willis’ shirt?
That’s just RUDE.
“Also, studies have shown that lesbians who’s name starts with “B” and ends with “Y” and who refuses to eat lunch with their bests friends are especially at risk of being run over by a truck right… now.”
Dammit, facts, stop making Joyce cry.
“B-but I mean they just love their kids don’t they?”
“Studies indicate that fathers who resemble giant toes are physically incapable of feeling love.”
“IT’S BECAUSE THINGS OF THIS I DON’T LIKE SCIENCE.”
FINALLY we get to deal with Joe’s raging misogyny and homophobia. I’ve been irked for so long that he’s been presented as the more clueful and progressive of the Joe-Danny duo. I’d love to see a story in which a total jerkwad becomes less of a total jerkwad. That way I might be able to believe it’s possible in real life, too.
Joe isnt a homophobe, though.
He’s perhaps not actively hateful, but his attitude towards female homosexuality is to be vocally objectifying about it.
Even going so far as to derail conversations about problems faced by the LGBT community to make it about what gets his dick hard.
Eh, Walky’s not that much better in that regard. Joe’s just more memorable for it because he doesn’t have that much else going for him yet.
Walky’s not exactly a high pedestal.
Joe’s just the subject of conversation today. While Walky’d dropped similar remarks I can’t recall them ever being the sole focus of a strip like this. Usually there’s other stuff going on and he’s sort of in the background being doofy.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/to-navigate/
In a strip where Walky’s faults are the sole focus it’s more extensively discussed in the comments.
Plus, honestly I do think the community gives him a lot of leeway for a variety of reasons. His often mean-spirited jokes are generally a hit with the audience. He had that whole introduction of getting adorably befuddled around Dorothy, then proceeded to become her caramel boy toy. Probably other stuff I’m not thinking of.
Here, Leslie is attempting to educate people on the discrimination that LGBT+ people face, and Joe is knowingly derailing the conversation to objectify lesbians and complain about her even bringing it up. Has Walky ever done anything that bad? Even if he has, he has also faced his own prejudices and admitted hard truths in order to listen to his sister (different axis of oppression in that case, but still), as well as attempted to be supportive towards the people he claims to care about.
Walky is still kind of a douchebag and he needs to cut out the ragging on Joyce, but he’s better than Joe as a person learning to overcome his own prejudices and as a friend.
Hmmm, rereading your comment, you’re being more specific and discussing a certain behavior, not their general character. I apologize. Sorry, I really should remember that I can’t edit here… I’m so used to platforms where you can, or can save drafts…
Mysogyny I get, but homophobia? We’ve never been given any indication that Joe believes homosexuality is wrong, that there’s anything wrong with homosexuals or that they should keep their affections hidden.
At most he’s been an insensitive asshole who doesn’t want to get involved in the emotional baggage people go through when uncertain about their own sexuality. While I’ve never come across a bigot who wasn’t a colossal jerk, I’ve met plenty of jerks who weren’t bigots.
His facial expressions when Danny broached the queerness topic didn’t exactly scream support and he definitely described the “self-discovery” as “excrutiating”, so it’s a reasonable assumption to make. He might not be the throwing gay people off of buildings type of homophobe, but he definitely has viewed it as feminizing and something that is partially threatening to his masculinity to engage with. Additionally, he clearly has really messed up views regarding lesbians and definitely sees the purpose of their existence to serve his sexual interests of being turned on by their sexual exploits which quite literally dehumanizes them. I mean, here he is demanding to be catered to his porn delusions while the class talks about the very real danger to their lives queer individuals face because reality is intruding on his porn fantasy of lesbianism.
That alone is a reasonable thing to point out as homophobia and at the very least, he has deep ignorances that are deeply dismissive and harmful to the queer individuals around him (remember he’s constantly perving on women in the class and fetishizing lesbianism in the class, how is that impacting any young lesbians in the class just trying to figure themselves out not to mention the other students who frequently get class interrupted to cater to Joe’s libido).
It’s something of a real problem owing to his ignorances on the subject.
You know what? Danny stopped being a dweeb a long-ass time ago, so why is “Danning it up” still a thing?
I say we change it up. I say from now on, instead of “Danning” something up, we say the offender “Joe’d it up”
Like in “Danny Joed Ethan up, with his penis.”?
Danny still Dan things up, but it’s more affectionate now.
Professor Bean is very understanding, but she should ask him to leave. Walking in late, announcing it to maximize the disruption, then responding the the professor trying to resume class with another disruption? Yah, she is more understanding than I would expect any professor to be.
I can see why she doesn’t ask him to leave though – she is cultivating a non-authority relationship with her class. It has advantages and disadvantages. She should ask him to sit down and be silent now, but a few seconds disrubtions like this is not a problem in her teaching style.
Given her previous interactions with the class, I could see this on most any other day being used to segue into a conversation on how the porn-world depiction of lesbians and their fetishization can have a negative impact on their real world safety, but given all the needs in that class, she has a wealth of options to choose on which direction to go.
Prof. Bean is a good teacher. The single biggest requirement of a “teacher” is a willingness to tolerate (to a certain point–past a certain point, it’s no longer deemed worth the effort, to try and teach anymore).
Simply being a professor requires you to be a professional (in which case “Joe, please leave the room now” is totally understandable)–a teacher is someone who expands your mind, or helps you start to expand it for yourself.
Joe is probably the single person in that room, with the deepest need for a teacher.
As a sidenote: Did anyone else initially think “Pornlord” was how someone was viewing him? Kinda like when you mentally insert “Child molester”, “Dipwad Supreme”, or something else under someone’s name, just to poke fun at them? I managed to miss the lettering on his shirt in the first panel, so it caught me totally by surprise.
Joe’s need for a teacher shouldn’t allow him to disrupt everybody else’s learning experience.
Dude didn’t even bring anything to take notes. This classroom is full of people willing and eager to actually use Leslie’s services, and they’re sitting here listening to Leslie recap to the late asshole who’s shouting about sex positions.
It would be a disservice to everybody else not to send Joe on his way so that the class can get back on track. He can come back next lecture prepared learn if he’s so inclined.
Leslie’s not a one on one tutor. She’s got the group to think about.
Those are some pretty horrifying statistics.
Good thing they are only made up for sake of drama in a stupid webcomic, right.
…right?
…excuse me, I’m going to sit down next to Joyce and cry now.
The statistics get even more horrifying if you limit that down to just looking at trans* statistics, like horrifying to the degree that trans* kids with supportive parents are something of a shocking rarity and a lot of people just sort of accept a relationship of “well, they haven’t thrown me out or hit me yet, so…”
That’s… that’s…
No, I’m just going to keep crying. Don’t mind me.
Have I said how much I love Dorothy?
Everyone: YES.
Anyway, look at her. She doesn’t say anything because it is in the middle of class but her whole body language scream support, openess, willingess to help. I’m here for you, Joyce, and for Becky, it says. I WILL help you in any way I can.
Dorothy is best president.
Dorothy isn’t the president we deserve, but she’s the president that we need.
Unfortunately there’s the whole atheist problem. You can probably count the number of successful openly atheist politicians in the US on the fingers of one hand.
It’s a bigger number than the number of female presidents.
There were atheist politicians? Please, name them. No seriously, I never knew they existed.
Former US Congressman Pete Stark is openly atheist. Barney Frank admitted to being an atheist after he quit. It’s been claimed by a couple of different sources that there have been a couple dozen or so members of Congress in the last few years who actually are non-believers, but won’t admit it publicly out of fear it will damage their careers.
Hahaha… Dark.
I hate feeling lucky.
Mind you, s/he said sex. Nothing about consensual.
So how long until Joe gets added to the Scrappy index on the DoA tvtropes page?
Just curious, does anyone who reads this comic actually like Joe?
(Also, I feel like I made a grammar error there, but can’t figure out what it is)
Joe’s been a bit character since Day 1 and he got lots of praise for his sex positivity and that time he told Walky off for thinking he was girly for owning multiple pairs of shoes, but unless we see some development soon I’d say he’s going to end up pretty hated.
Like, Danny pre-character development hated.
Joe’s always been gross. Now he’s awful. He reminds me all the “friends” I had before I came out.
Pretty much. Joe’s definitely one of those characters that face plants on his own privilege a lot and very much expects women, LGBT individuals (especially women who love women), and others to conform around to his desires and needs and has no idea of what kind of culture he is creating for those around him.
He’s very much the type of personality that could very easily end up in later life drifting in the PUA/MRA direction if he had a dry spell and couldn’t use sex to avoid introspection and you see that in his use of elements of their culture (putting number values to women, seeing acquiring sex as a game of worming his way around a woman’s values (see his sliminess before the Joyce date, which was forgotten because of how abusive she and Mike were to him during it), and not respecting individuals who do not want constant meaningless sex (the way he is cruel and dismissive to Danny or the way he’s been dismissive of Joyce or women who won’t sleep with him)). Additionally, he may reject arguments that random clothes make one a man, but he definitely believes that his “notch count” makes him more of a man than those around him and felt threatened and knocked out of whack when Danny brought up the possibility of non-straight identities (look at his facial expressions when he brings it up and when he asks Danny if he is gay) and clearly views emotions, relationships, queerness, and other things traditionally deemed feminine to be toxic to his worldview of himself and to be something of an attack of his self-image.
He’s essentially awful right now and can become downright dangerous in the future or can mellow out and do some introspection and become the sort of almost all right dude he was at at the end of the Walkyverse.
But he’s definitely going to need some smackdowns to his worldview along the way as he has no idea how toxic his constant objectification of women and sexualization of everything and his avoidance of depth are to those around them.
I think that’s a dramatic misreading of Joe. It also equates sexual interest and shallowness with misogyny.
Okay, I’m really not seeing Joe in any of this. If anything, it sounds like you’re dumping every mysogynist archetype on top of him because he’s proven he fits a few.
For the record, I’m not trying to dispute the fact that Joe is a reprehensible character, but he’s not the monster so many comments on this site is turning him into.
Nobody thinks he’s a monster, but he’s being a callous, insensitive asshole.
@Spencer As am I. That description fits him very well. But a very large portion of the comments on this page is making him look worse than Blaine.
Which part?
I mean, he does do the PUA number system: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/seven/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/04-the-bechdel-test/cam/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/04-the-whiteboard-dong-bandit/skim-2/
He’s creepy and disrespectful during his Women’s Studies classes (and is one stop fixated on objectifying lesbians throughout it which is extra disrespectful considering an out lesbian is the teacher): http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/02-uphill-from-here/why/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/04-the-bechdel-test/movies/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/04-the-bechdel-test/thehangover/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/compete/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/03-the-first-step-towards-recovery/announcement/
He’s got a lot of baggage around even the appearance of “gayness”:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/brb/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/dont-button/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/knockers/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/02-choosing-my-religion/tissue/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/04-the-bechdel-test/hotter/
He was very wormy regarding Joyce at first: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/threesome/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/penis/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/destiny/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/corrupt/
And despite the fact that he supports the language of sex positivity, he’s also stewing in some not at all good ideas regarding working around consent:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/frequency/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/no/ (note the lack of asking for consent before grabbing Sierra around the waist and Dorothy by the shoulder both from behind. Also note Sierra not looking too pleased to be surprised from behind like that)
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/01-if-the-shoes-split/theplural/ (again using alcohol to maneuver people into sex they wouldn’t be willing to have sober is not consent and not okay, but is a common misconception that a lot of college aged boys are sold)
Not to mention that that was the go-to notion his best friend has of him: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/best-2/
And a large point I want to make is that being misogynistic isn’t a death knell of whether or not he can be a good person. In fact, it’s a really easy worldview for a young insecure man to be sucked into and which is frequently reinforced by the world around them. Hence why it could be dangerous if he is not shaken from his current path to a sexually adventurous path that isn’t so based in the language of predation and disrespect to his partners and potential partners.
Joe can easily become better, but right now, he’s doing things that aren’t really okay at all and which make him someone who objectifies women, fetishizes lesbians, disrespects his women’s studies class, and is not as strong at consent as he likes to think himself as (Sarah basically had to scream at him in a public place to get him to stop creeping at her in addition to all the other stuff). It’s just where that character is and needs to work through (like Walky’s weird gender and racial hangups, Joyce’s internalized sexism, or how Dorothy worked through her immediate response to lean towards slut-shaming with Roz). And I think there will be an interesting tale in that.
Since you ask, “just curious” does not constitute a clause in and of itself. Try replacing it with, “I’m only asking because I’m curious, but does anyone…” et cetera or, “I’m just curious: does anyone…” et cetera.
Well, comics that feature only main characters I can like and agree with tend to boring quickly, so I suppose I like him for that.
According to the “Favorite Character” poll over there on the right, Joe isn’t faring too well, but he’s still ahead of Leslie. What’s up with that? Maybe we just haven’t seen enough of Leslie for her to win people over.
I find Joe a hard character to love *or* hate. He simply is. He doesn’t want to get caught up in the meaningless drama that he’s so accustomed to having around him (thanks Danny!) but he’s not out to actively hurt people. He’s out to enjoy his life and his overall attitude reflects that. He really felt a gender studies class would be nothing more than talking about chicks. He’s getting a dose of reality setting in that actual issues will still come up, and he should learn to separate fake issues like Danny’s from real world troubles.
Being confused about your sexuality and trying to figure it out isn’t a real issue?
For anyone else, yes it could be. But we’re talking specifically about Danny, and that’s not what’s going on with him. Danny is just such a failure at processing any sort of positive contact that he turns anything that isnt downright abuse or negligence *into* love, and as his only male friend seems to be Joe, that makes Ethan the first time he’s had another male treat him with genuine niceness. Danny, being Danny, immediately mistook the feeling of having someone boost his self esteem with feelings of attraction, because he is just that screwed up. I strongly suspect that some deep down part of Joe subconsciously knows that’s what would happen if he ever tried to directly boost Danny up outside the one attribute Danny has boiled him down to mentally.
So in short Danny isn’t confused. Danny is a !@#$% idiot.
Just my take on it.
I do, he’s far more likable than half the other cast members people like. people around here just love being judgemental bongoes and take turns loving then hating characters.
I’m probably the only one that thinks Joe’s avoiding the subject on purpose to allow for a more in-depth discussion with one of the characters later.
You aren’t. Plenty of people are thinking that, I just don’t understand why that’s supposed to be a good justification for how much of an asshole he’s been lately.
It’s not like there’s any rule that mandates you go on some kind of “What? That’s not sexy! Lesbians are supposed to be sexy!” bit if you want to consult the professor or a fellow student after class.
Could’ve just, you know, sat down and let the lecture resume like a normal human being who knows the people here haven’t gathered to hear his hacky stand-up routine. Maybe throw out a simple “Thanks for bringing me up to speed” if he feels socially obligated to respond to Leslie’s statement.
As stated in a cracked article about pedophilia today, understanding something isn’t the same thing as condoning it. Assuming Joe is using his cavalier disregard as a cover and a coping mechanism doesn’t mean it isn’t a shitty assed coping mechanism.
That would presume that Joe would ever willingly initiate a heavy emotional conversation where he would have to admit the vulnerability of ignorance and value someone else’s opinion over his for a time in order to grow, which does not seem to be in evidence. It’s much easier for him to dismiss that which he sees as challenging to his worldviews, enforce his porn fantasy view of the world on the conversation (see his answer to the movie question where he responded to the first explicitly feminist work mentioned with a pornification of it).
So no, I don’t really see it going any further for this by his initiation. I can definitely see someone else dragging it out of him especially if his worldview keeps on being challenged like this.
Sympathy for Joe: dropping.
Sympathy for Joyce: rising.
You ever HAD sympathy for Joe?
Have you read the comments lately? Their are plenty of people on both sides of the “Is Joe a jerk?” argument.
Joe’s response to hearing about the genuinely horrifying facts that LGBT kids have to face from the people they’re supposed to trust the most in life is “lol scissoring.” This really isn’t a debate or anything at this point. The guy’s acting like a total chode because he wants his college experience to be laser focused on getting laid.
I didn’t say he wasn’t a jerk, I said there are people who say Joe isn’t a jerk (source: the comment threads for the last few days). Joe most certainly is being a jerk, and this latest comment of his only reinforces that, but there are sympathetic reasons for his actions that some people wish to ferret out.
Personally, I think Joe is being a jerk and that being a jerk is inexcusable, but not unforgivable. When Joe gives a heartfelt apology for his various jerky-times and attempts to properly make things better for Danny, I’ll be on his side. Until then (and yes, I know “then” might well be “never”) I’m not on his side and not holding my breath.
I don’t think I said Joe wasn’t being a jerk, just that his jerky behaviour is sympathetic and doesn’t ruin his character.
Everyone in the cast has their flaws and coping mechanisms Joe’s is no more or less irritating and damning than anyone else’s. The only question is which behaviours people have a higher tolerance for.
Not in the sense of understanding his hardships, because he didn’t have any obvious hardships to understand (and seems eager to keep up that appearance). But in the sense of considering him to be a generally decent (though by no means flawless) human being? Yes.
At his best, he’s been like a case study on how to be a flirtatious and promiscuous dude without being a creepy douchebag. And here, he’s being a creepy douchebag.
The scissoring lessons might not accomplish much, but they’re still more useful than the papering lessons.
The ROCKING lessons, on the other hand, usually end with a burning guitar and the whole class holding up lighters and throwing their underwear at Leslie.
Poor Joe is trying to enjoy his freedom from his father’s control and the non-stop hedonism of high-school. Sadly, depressing facts are getting in the way of that. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with just enjoying life as long as you don’t hurt anyone, though, which Joe never does.
Everybody has pretty much agreed that Joyce is thinking about Becky after hearing these stats. But unknown to her, these stats could carry a double-whammy. She doesn’t know about Joshua/Jocelyne.
What do you suppose will happen when she finally reveals herself to the parents?
I don’t think Jocelyne ever will reveal herself to her parents. She seems to have chosen not to, and it’s not hard to imagine why.
Personally I got the impression she was some kind of self sufficient adult living in some other city anyway though. Either living off her writing or with some kind of day job. If I got that right then I’m sure it’ll sting to lose family but she’ll be equipped to just stop taking her parent’s calls.
I would pay good money for that Pornlord shirt
I gotta say I feel like some of this Joe hate is transference. There are much worse people even among the main cast whom we love, but because Joe is kind of a frat boy people start pretending he’s that jerk who stole their lunch money in the third grade. Same thing with Mike honestly. They are jerks certainly, but at their cores they are both pretty solid people. Excluding Dina and Becky I’d say most of the case are worse as people than Joe and Mike, but because their personalities are outwardly abrasive people add in a lot of traits that really aren’t a part of their character. A neither of their characters haven even really been defined in this universe, and B they were both much better as people compared to a lot of the cast in the last one. I mean I kinda get it I’d say Willis designed their characters to be based off of people who in similar stories are typically villains; kinda like how in any other story a character like Mary would be a protagonist instead of a huge jerk. This was a much longer post than I intended I just wanted to say that recently this comment section has been pretending it’s Youtube, and just being huge jerks rather than the awesome people who all love Willis’ work like it should be.
I’m gonna be honest this version of Leslie reminds me of actual gender studies teachers I’ve had and that ain’t a good thing, they were petty and kinda pretentious
>that awkward moment when Willis changes the alt text because originally he implied scissoring wasn’t a real thing and got smacked down in the comments
I would expect the part where the alt text changes to be the least awkward moment implied by that scenario.
Love that shirt.
Gotdang it, there was a chapter on scissoring??
P-PORNLORD!?