Joe could’ve used the better excuse, “I should go after them because I don’t really care about this class anyway if you’re not gonna talk about lesbian sex”. I imagine that Leslie would’ve just let him leave if he’d said that instead. 😛
When a guy takes his yankie doodle and covers it with the foreskin of another guy’s uncircumsized yankie doodle. Presumably while the foreskin is still attached, otherwise that’s no longer sexual and just plain weird and also highly unsanitary.
I dare!
**two google searches later (one regular, one image with safe search off)**
Oh. I was expecting something more shocking. Am I just not appreciating this because I don’t have the proper equipment?
usually just a fetish, and something fun to do. Like licking nipples or grabbing asses.
If you want to complicate things then you could say that theoretically many gay/les people have the potential to have the instincts to sync up their gonads even if they arent made for each other. So it makes sense that such acts would exist.
Or reaffirms that he breaks emotional tension by intentionally saying outrageous things to shift everyone’s focus back to bullshit and away from the drama.
Oh, I think he definitely is, but if it makes you feel better, he’s doing it largely for his own benefit.
Joe is trying really hard to be shallower than he actually is. If he keeps up the pose for long enough it may become true. But it’s not true right now.
If someone is shallow, people tend to avoid them like the plague, convinced that they’re a waste of time. If people avoid them, they don’t have to get involved in emotional situations. Like the ones a certain shallow pervert might be trying to run away from in the class room.
Reminds me of a coworker who was bffs with another coworker, but made the distinction that her bestie was “the fun friend”, as in “great to hang out with but I have learned better than to rely on her in case of emergency”.
Because things are simpler. I know that it took me a long time to realize that “simpler” did not mean “better”, and even now I miss the times when I acted shallow because things were easier if ultimately unhealthy.
I have more faith in Mister Willis than that. I maintain that it’s entirely possible it’s a coping mechanism (pet theory, developed during his parent’s contentious relationship and eventual divorce). It’s a shitty assed coping mechanism, but depth is still depth.
Why do you assume he’s talking about Joyce? Maybe he’s going after Roz.
The alt-text says he already knows her name, and he knows Joyce from trying to bed her, but he probably knows Roz after all the fuss about her sister. Not to mention that he definitely knows Dorothy’s name from Danny’s stint with her, and he might be going after her with Walky.
Not that it really matters, because he’s obviously just making up excuses; just saying she’s not the only female who left the room.
Also, it is fairly clear that Dorothy and in turn Walky are leaving because they want to help Joyce . . . Though Walky probably did so partially if not mostly because Joyce is Dorothy’s friend. Joyce shows signs of needing help, and Dorothy doesn’t, so it doesn’t make any sense for Joe to be worrying about Dorothy.
Joe certainly knows Roz. Biblically. There’s video proof and everything. But Roz isn’t leaving. (At least not in this strip. It’s still possible Leslie might drag her out by her ear to give her a dressing-down in the hallway.)
Joe certainly knows Joyce’s name, too. He’s just pretending not to because it’s funnier that way. And maybe to cover up that the rest of what he says there isn’t really a joke.
My guess is that we’ll be sticking with Joyce & friends who just ran out the door.
But I totally expected Joe to fade into the background after his confrontation with Danny and walking in late to class scene transition. The fact that he hasn’t gives me hope we’ll see more of him before this storyline is up.
Please stop putting it like that, unless you seriously amp up the sarcasm ques. Because unfortunately… that’s how I feel half the time. Like I’m a horrible, terrible, very bad person (Only with a frelling conscience so that I feel guilty about all of it) due to things I wasn’t even born for and have no control over. (Red scare, slavery, book burnings, general racist bongoyness, corrupted capitalist control over everything, etc.) [Self filtered, sorry Willis. Can’t touch this!]
Being the only person to be able to recall events from my history book does NOT help. 🙁
No, they don’t. But I also don’t have to refrain from asking. But seriously, that thing is dripping with it (Least according to my teacher, my classmates, my mom, and others), and I couldn’t detect any of it! Unless there’s some sarcasm detecting formula (If there is, I’ll take two.) I kinda have to pick up sarcasm from context. You say “the last line”, and I still don’t see it. It’s like while you don’t WRITE with me in mind, I have to try to READ with you in mind, which is not all that easy.
Her last line said that Joyce should feel bad for something other people did. I just worry that you think some people really believe other people should feel bad about stuff that they know is totally out of that person’s control.
I know you think that about yourself, and I want you to know that other people don’t think that about you! Take it from me, another person who blames herself for everything, it’s hard to not think that everything is my fault. I totally get it. But people only get mad at others when they truly believe that person is directly responsible for it! (At least, I think so… there’s got to be some mean person out there that blames everyone)
Also, the way I figured out sarcasm was if something sounds very weird, they are being sarcastic. Like blaming someone for something that is for sure not their fault? That’s weird and illogical, why would someone do that, most people don’t, right? Probably sarcasm. Or with the modest proposal, eating babies? It’s pretty frowned upon and illegal to be a cannibal in western culture, so it’s probably not going to be a serious writing piece. I’m still wrong sometimes, but that is my sarcasm detecting formula.^^;;
First paragraph: I am REALLY not beyond believing that airyu. There are PLENTY of sick people in this world. I think I’m almost no longer beyond believing people believe anything.
Second paragraph: I wasn’t mad. If I’m mad, I get out of control. Trust me on this, when I’m mad, you’ll know it.
third paragraph: “sounds weird” formula not found. Sorry, but these things are kinda in monotone in my head. Sometimes if people don’t add enough inflection to the right places, or add too much to the wrong places, I can’t figure it out when they are TALKING. (Turns out it’s a trait of those with Aspergers, so I guess that makes me less alone, but still)
It’s easy to miss sarcasm in text. This is one of the major pitfalls of social communication online, and no one’s really developed a consistent way of avoiding it, yet. As an ‘old geek’, one who’s been around since the days of BBS’es and MUD’s, I’ve fallen into this trap more than a few times, gotten into completely avoidable arguments simply for missing implied sarcasm.
The only solution I’ve found that works is, you simply have to take a step back. When you read something online that offends you, don’t respond immediately. Take a step back, let your temper cool, and think about something else for a minute. Minimize the window if you have to, or just step away from the computer. It helps a little, and tends to cut down on knee-jerk responses that cause escalation. After a minute, read the offending comment again. You may see it in a different light, then.
With “A Modest Proposal”, one of the things you have to remember is that Swift was himself Irish.
The part in there about how the english took everything else already, is another .
But, yes. It’s easy to miss sarcasm in text.
Especially if you don’t know the person who’s writing it to give you a reality check.
Another thing to consider is this. If you had the chance to reroll the dice, all the results from that point on would change, not just the bad parts. You wouldn’t be born, and neither would the person who you feel your “side” wronged sometime before either of you were born.
It’s one thing to feel shame for the pride your contemporaries still express for a historical act you feel is reprehensible.
It’s still another to feel you owe that other person because their ancestors were oppressed by your ancestors. Neither of you were there. It’s an accident of birth that you are both here now.
The corollary is to expect all lottery and sweepstakes winners to share their winnings with all the losers of the same game. By the time you were born, it was luck of the draw whether or not you’d be born into relative poverty, or relative wealth, into privilege or persecution.
P.S. If English isn’t a tonal language, why is there a question mark?
Also, anyone who’s heard a sarcastic statement given in a flat, or singsong, voice, should know tone plays a role.
I don’t have the ability to detect peoples intentions myself, including sarcasm, neither written nor spoken, so the solution I’ve come to myself is to ALWAYS believe the BEST choice. I.e.: if someone says/writes something I find sickening I assume they are sarcastic, if someone complements me, I assume they ARE (even if they have no reason to do so). I used to worry that this would put me at an disadvantage, but I found that there is usually no consequences and it just gives me a “nicer” world to live in.
Hence the need for sarcasm tags. I can see nothing in your comment other than you directly telling me that tells me you are using sarcasm, especially because of how sick people can be.
I could get behind a sarcasm tag, if we could agree to a standard one. I don’t like the whole &;ltsarcasm&;gt thing, it’s too unwieldy. It needs to be a single character that indicates a sarcastic tone. Maybe we also need one to emphasize that we’re serious again.
Eg: @No really, I like punches to the face, it’s therapeutic. #Of course, I don’t want him to hit me!
(Not necessarily those particular characters, of course, but along those lines.)
Babies already look like potatoes! We won’t even have to dress it up!
**Our company accepts no liability for the content of this comment, or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of the information provided, .05 return in WI, void in Utah.**
I was actually feeling sick while reading it, and going like “SERIOUSLY! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS DUDE!!!” soo… hopefully that makes me seem a little less like I have issues?
People ought learn use sarcasm tags like “/s” more often.
It can’t be repeated often enough: SOME PEOPLE AREN’T VERY GOOD AT FIGURING OUT THE TONE OF COMMENTS OVER THE INTERNET. By using two extra letters people can help remove lots of confusion/aggravation/frustration.
I’m sorry that the sarcasm wasn’t obvious enough and that you feel that way. If it helps, you can do good now. Not to make up for any sins. Do good to make the world better.
For those who aren’t so optimistic, do good things so at least you aren’t doing bad things or doing nothing at all.
Your response to my request suggests otherwise Airyu. I requested something, and your immediate response (which was just about the opposite of the response of the person I was making the request of) was that I didn’t have the right to request it.
[okay, maybe some slight annoyance is going into these words. But hey, I’m slightly annoyed.]
Please don’t do that. I have two coworkers I still can’t keep straight.
It doesn’t help that they both have essentially the same job.
If you’re pathetic for not being able to keep people straight, (who are wearing masks in the form of cartoon characters, and in many cases, THE SAME MASK,) how much worse me, who can’t keep people, who’s faces I see on a daily basis, clearly identified as one or the other.
P.S. I’m a guy, but you’d never guess that by the face the RNG decided to attach to my name.
Please take my words at face value and do not add your own meaning to them… I never said you “didn’t have the right to ask that”; you can ask for whatever you want on the internet. I said that people don’t have to assume you will read their comment, and therefore don’t have to alter their response with the expectation that you will read it. That’s all.
Also, above, I never thought you were mad… I assume most people on the internet aren’t angry, since it’s really hard to type when anger or sadness happens. I’m also not neurotypical, and have a lot of trouble understanding “tones” and ‘moods” in both writing and speaking. I’m in a biology PhD programme, and my laboratory group made it a point to teach me to understand sarcasm before I graduate, so I was trying to help you out too! That’s how they explained it to me. That’s all.
Hey, I had to read the whole thing through to get “all green” on my sarcasm monitor. Be not ashamed in your own brain’s failings. Strive to move past them and seek assistance when possible.
I just hope that doesn’t require taking a break from Dumbing of Age. Logically, I know that it would probably be good for me. But every other part, and even some of that part screams “NOT GONNA HAPPEN”, only the font is like 300 times larger, the text is in bold and rainbow, and… oh yeah, there’s a big comfy spot on top.
Did–uh, did I miss a pop culture thing? Suddenly everyone’s saying “bongo” a lot and while I understand it in context, I have NO idea where it originated.
I tried looking it up on Urban Dictionary and now I’m just depressed.
It came from Willis and his new text modifier. Try writing the b-word and you get BONGOS!!!!
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 <—– these are for Bongos. not the b-word
I really did mean that as completely, utterly, and bitingly sarcastic, and I am really, really sorry it didn’t come across that way for you.
Especially since some of what you’re saying sounds really familiar. I’ve had some really bad issues in my past with self-esteem and still wrestle every now and then with some pretty intense self-loathing. So, know that I’m rooting for you!
Not your fault white people have a long history of being jerks. I honestly think I could get over it and be okay with everything if we would JUST STOP DOING IT!!!!!
It’s one thing if a group of people made a mistake. It’s one thing if you did something horrible and learned never to repeat that experience. But it’s another thing to be in the present and do the exact things that got us into deep trouble physically, socially, economically, or morally. It’s like, do we never learn?
Before Rozs words Joyces anger was directed towards the church yet she herself is a member of that church and by participating in that church she agrees with what the church is doing
Shes slut shamed Roz in the past while showing double standards towards Joe and thought Roz was a witch
She completely disregards evolution while waiting for a flu shot shot and has no issues with committing physical violence on someone if they have a different viewpoint to her own
Yes shes improving but she hasn’t yet owned up to her own short-comings and is still looking for loop-holes so hopefully Rozs words have forced her to do some introspection which, in the long run, will help her become a better person
Painful as it maybe we all sometimes need to hear the truth whether we like it or not
By the way, don’t take this the wrong way, but identifying as a member of a group meaning you support their policies is the most insane thing I have ever heard and I work with people who believe the pyramids were built by aliens.
I’m a United States citizen and am a vocally critical opponent of many of its policies. Joyce can identify with the good and work to change the bad. What universe requires you to believe that a group you belong to has to represent your values? Reform would be impossible if not for people working to change them from the inside.
At no point did Joyce ever question her church, at no point did she ever think anything other than church = good, if she’d heard about her church performing “rehabilitation” she’d probably be all for it and if anyone asked her about her church she’d just say how wonderful it is
Who joins a group or stays in a group or organization (I’m not talking countries here) without agreeing with most of what it does? Seriously there are plenty of churches out there she could look at, shes had conversations with other people about the churches they belong but she likes the one shes comfortable with, the one shes used to, the one she agrees with
I’ll be interested to see if she does try to change her church, their policies or even try to start the conversation though
I’m confused where you’re getting all this because she’s done all of that. As for joining organizations without agreeing with most of what they said? Most of the world? Especially in churches. A church is not a political party, it’s a community of your friends, family, and town. It’s a community. You are a part of it and have to work to change it unless you want to move away and maybe you might think they deserve to be educated or reformed.
Instead of immediately discarding the part of her upbringing where “queer = bad,” after meeting absolutely no bad queer people and a few bad hetero people, she first consulted the bible for permission. And then she told Becky this– with the underlying implication that “if the bible told me to hate you, I might actually hate you.”
No, she didn’t. She made the decision to accept Becky as she is, conditional on nothing, because she loves Becky. Then she went to the Bible and the Internet looking not for permission, but for a retroactive justification for her decision that would allow her to reconcile her decision with her faith. She even tells Sarah that’s what she’s doing: not consulting the Bible as to what the right decision is, but trying to finagle a way to make the decision she’s already made Biblically okay.
And right in that link you posted, when Becky asks if Joyce would have changed her mind again if she hadn’t been able to find that wiggle room, Joyce says “no”.
You’re talking about someone who up until she got to college was raised in an environment where she couldn’t conceive of an atheist being a nice, normal person.
Things like country’s and churches are a grey area for this, because you get shoved into them mostly while still a child, and without free control over the choice to engage or not.
STAYING in those constructs as an adult however, is a different fish.
If you say, for example, pulling a group out of a hat…
That you’re a *redacted*, you ARE making the statement that you are part and parcel for that group, and follow it’s doctrines and conform to their ideals. Otherwise, you shouldn’t say you’re a *BLEEP* as saying you’re a *Foghorn* paints you with the best and worst of their colors.
If you’re not able to handle that, then you shouldn’t wear the coat, and find one that fits you better.
***Name of Institution has been stricken from the records by Derailment Protocol 34b7, Class 8 clearance is needed to view.***
I love bacon, and link sausage. I enjoy a good steak. I find typically strawberry colored foods tasty. (Yes, colored, read on.)
I have been present for the castration of pigs and didn’t enjoy the experience. I am squeamish about “cleaning”, (gutting,) a dear.
I know that sausage casings are made from the intestines of the animal.
I know the color used to make that “strawberry” color is typically made from the carapaces, (outer shells,) of a certain insect.
The human mind is capable of wonderful degrees of disconnect.
Most people do not carry their established beliefs to their fridge logic conclusion.
It is a wonderful selective blindness that lets us live with ourselves.
If I were denied this selective blindness, I could never enjoy another slice of bacon.
Personally, I choose to hide the truth of its manufacture from myself, and continue to enjoy bacon.
As a human being I don’t have much choice but look on my fellow humans in dismay.
As children we’re indoctrinated into Queen, country, church, but as adults we have choices. You can choose to remain faithful to such bodies, you can choose to question it’s actions. Or not. A church is just a body of people, you can remain within it, you can join it, or you can remain outside.
If you remain or join just because, then you’re a non-thinking sheep and I can only work with you at a superficial level.
Joyce and Roz are at two different stages of development. Roz is all young adult arrogance and smarts. She’s had stuff revealed to her, and she thinks she knows everything. She’s forthright and honest. I admire that.
Joyce is setting down that route. I hope the answers to her questions bring her happiness. I suspect not.
I could probably argue back and forth about this, but I think I said all my arguments (and probably repeated plenty of them) on the last page and at this point I’m content to leave that particular issue on that page as well.
So in belonging to an organization – even one as vaguely defined as “the church” – we take on all responsibility for everything that organization does? Where do I go to disavow all national affiliation, then? Because I’m pretty sure there’s no country on earth that doesn’t do something that makes me shake my head in disapproval.
The difference is I’m assuming a church has rules you have to follow and I’m guessing Joyce is well aware of these rules so while she hasn’t done anything horrible like Roz said she does condone the action of her church by belonging to it unless of course she has disagreed with its policies in the past and has tried to change them
Man, you have any idea how rare it is to find fully grown adults who are willing to dig into who they are and why they happen to be that way? And you expect 18 year olds who’re just heading off on their own to have done all of that self-reflection already?
Expecting someone who’s reaching the cusp of adulthood to have already questioned the truths of their childhood is ridiculous.
In general, churches rarely have rules but they often have cultural patterns which tend to reinforce behavior. I imagine Joyce was taught her entire life about God’s love, compassion, charity, and forgiveness but if it was ever mentioned then homosexuality was a sin like premarital sex but it would be a microscopic part of her education. THAT is why it’s insidious and difficult to get rid of because she has to question how a group which is 99% good has 1% which is really really awful. It’s something I had to deal with and it’s hard. I’m glad Joyce is going down my path, though.
Like I said above, Joyce grew up thinking that people who questioned the rules too much were putting themselves on a path to Hell. She’s just barely realized that alternatives exist. Maybe she’d have started doing that questioning sooner if she had a pressing reason to do that kind of critical thinking like Becky does, but she didn’t choose to be born into a family where fundamentalist Christianity permeated every aspect of her waking existence until she went off to college.
In cases like the church or political parties, where joining is voluntary, yes. Specifically if you’re an adult, fully cognizant. If you’re adult and you remain actively with a church, I assume you’ve thought through what your support for that organisation means and you’re prepared to defend it’s actions.
You support that organisation by, usually, giving it money. Or your mere presence in church, giving it numbers. Or even becoming a vocal member of internet forums extolling and defending the church.
An exception would be someone who belongs to a church, and they don’t agree with it’s actions, and they try and change it. I respect them; they’re exceptional people. However, their legacy is usually warped and twisted beyond all recognition. See Francis of Assissi for example.
Joyce is at the stage where she’s starting to question her indoctrination. Becky, Roz and Dorothy have brought her face to face with some of the ramifications of her beliefs and the beliefs of her family.
Roz is absolutely correct in what she says. Of that there can be no doubt.
Excuse me, I think there can be a lot of doubt, considering the number of comments.
What Roz said was effectively ‘How DARE you take in new information and alter your worldview as a result? How DARE you act like overturning a literal lifetime of conditioning is actually hard? If you had any moral sense at all you’d have just known it immediately out of the ether. You have no right to be anything more than evil Miss Fundy, because you actually needed experience to learn.’
There’s very little right about that statement, whether or not the Roz’s stance on lgbt issues is a good one in itself. (Which of course it is.)
Roz is incredibly self-centered. Because she knows something in her soul, she thinks anyone who has to come to it any harder or slower way doesn’t deserve to share that something.
Joyce and Roz are very similar to each other, they both believe they’re right and have all the answers, they’re both quick to shoot down anyone who disagrees with them and they’re both quick to help people when they think they need help
I haven’t seen any sign Roz has helped anyone other than faux activism. Joyce, by contrast, doesn’t believe she has any answers other than what she was taught and actively seeks new knowledge as well as modifies her viewpoints.
I’d agree that Roz, like pretty much every recurring character in this, has more then 2 dimensions even if we don’t always see them. That said, I still think she’s an asshole and don’t particularly find her a likable character. She’s more then faux into activism but she’s got her own crystallized viewpoints and the arrogance that comes with that.
That we really don’t see Roz much is the real problem here. We do, in fact, know that Joyce is changing, because we can see it unfold. Roz, on the other hand, has yet to have a scene showing her dealing with a challenge to her beliefs. Thus far, without new evidence, she’s the same person in the latest strips as she was in her first appearance; I think we could certainly do with seeing her line of thought more, and this might well be how we get into that.
Where does the idea that Roz’s activism is “faux” come from? Does anyone have any links? Because this is all over the comments from yesterday and today and I don’t remember anything like that.
Joyce is capable of compassion, and of not looking down on others, even she if she doesn’t like or disagrees with the person. She’s also able to actually look at and challenge her world views, not particularly well mind you, but Roz doesn’t give a crap. I would also disagree with that last statement, Roz is never quick to help, she gave Joyce that therapist card that one time but that’s pretty much it, every other things she’s down in the entire comic was done to further her own goals.
What are you basing that “Roz is never quick to help” on? In the one time we’ve seen Roz be in a position to help, she does (or at least tries to). That being said, does she jump to conclusions in the past few strips? Yeah, absolutely. But that doesn’t automatically make her a bad person, just somewhat judgmental.
(Also Joyce is certainly capable of not looking down on others, but, y’know, she totally does)(Don’t get me wrong, Roz does too. But Joyce is not inherently better than Roz)
That’s the thing, she’s only been in a position to help one time during the entire comic, and she didn’t do anything extraordinary, she did what I would expect anyone to do in that situation, it’s the absolute minimum of basic human decency.
Roz is such a self serving character, you’ll note that in Joyce’s example, Joyce is genuinely concerned about Joe and Roz’s souls, she even states that she’s just worried about them in the next strip, and even then I point out that Joyce goes out of her way to grow and improve as a person and has since learned that looking down on people is not okay as shown here (http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/02-i-was-a-teenage-churchmouse/crankier/)
In Roz’s example Roz only cared about announcing how enlightened she was and bragging about how that made her better than everyone else in the class. The last time anyone had a valid counter point to her arguments she openly whined about how annoying it is when other people have valid points, she’s more interested in riding her high horse than she is in anything else.
That’s the distinction in my mind, even at her worst Joyce is always caring and compassionate, while Roz at her best is merely tolerable.
Okay I’m seeing where we differ. I love Joyce, but I don’t think Joyce is always caring and compassionate. Do I think that is usual/most natural for her? Yes. But her date with Joe shows her at her worst: cluelessly ignoring the pain of his divorce (though Joe also plays it off so not entirely on her) and encouraging physical punishment for their sins. The next comic has a quote from Joyce: “Our fists were instruments of the lord!” It implies Joyce directly participated in punching him, but that’s arguable. What isn’t arguable was that she condones and actively encourages it.
And as for that link, it’s clear to me that Joyce is still judging Billie in that link. “I’m not judging her, I’ve accepted that she’s gonna die early” is absolutely judging. (unless you’re pointing out that she knows looking down on people is not okay even though she still does)
Now Roz? Yes I agree she needs to come down a peg or two, but I find her pretty funny and interesting in other ways. She’s driven and intelligent, but that tends her towards thinking she knows best when she doesn’t necessarily. Do I agree with everything she does? No, but I enjoy when she’s around.
To be honest, if I knew both of them, I would probably end up befriending them both. (In fact I did more or less do that, as at college I accidentally befriended half the Christian Youth Group and hung out with the queer activists over the course of my freshman year). Joyce is compassionate and caring and Roz is passionate and driven, I would love to hang out with either!
Don’t get me wrong, that doesn’t excuse her actions during the actual date, not even slightly, she was horrible. But when it was all said and down she still felt the need to make that gesture, and I admire that about her. Plus I really doubt the person Joyce is NOW will ever do something this bad again.
In retrospect what I meant with that link would be much better explained with this strip:
Joyce knows what they’re doing is wrong (according to her beliefs anyways) but she still accepts and loves them. With Roz it’s my way or the high way.
Roz is driven, intelligent, and passionate, and those are definitely things to admire and something she should be proud of, but I don’t think I could stand having someone so self righteous in my life.
Yeah I read that comic when I was trawling for links. It definitely had me add the sentence about Joyce being caring and compassionate more often than not.
And yeah, that strip is much better. I hadn’t really thought about that when it came to judging, but it is showing that she’s learning to make her own judgements. This, combined with her compassionate heart, is why she’s growing and changing as a character. She cares about people.
Huh, wrote paragraph praising Joyce when my original focus was Roz. Oops!
As for Roz, she’s kinda shot in the foot by not being a main character or a common reoccurring character. And in narrative, she’s stubborn and convinced she’s correct. Whichever route you take, one means little character development is possible without more screentime and the other means that development takes a long time (which i know firsthand as a stubborn person myself)
I think Roz needs to be challenged by someone she respects to change her approach. Being challenged by someone she can easily write off like Joyce won’t register, because she’ll assume she knows better. I was hoping the Leslie talk would be that moment (who knows, maybe it will be. sometimes lessons take a while to sink in.) but as of now, she’s angry she was wrong.
Haha after writing this, I guess our interpretations of the characters aren’t much different, but our personal background gives us very different reactions to the characters. But that’s why I enjoy the comments!
And even that therapist card was probably just to make herself feel like less of a person who condones rape, given that she’d just finished being all ‘Woo! Wasn’t that a great party? I mean except for some stupid little scene, who cares’ and some joyful smugging about Joyce being terrified and/or ‘taught lessons’ by the real world. Well, Joyce was terrified and got ‘taught a lesson’, and Roz made herself feel better with a piece of tagboard.
Jesus Christ, where are you people getting these ideas? “Less of a person who condones rape”?? The fuck?! Where is it ever remotely intimated that she condones rape. Where. Where.
See at this point you’ve gone so far into your made-up dreamland that it’s clear there’s nothing I can do. You’ve decided Roz is the ultimate evil and there’s no way anyone can change your mind.
In the Roz-based aftermath of that party, it was clear that Roz had NO IDEA what happened to Joyce or what the origin of the fight was. And yet Dorothy lit into her before Joyce asked her to stop because just talking about it was upsetting to her. So then Roz comes to her after class, apologizes (despite still not knowing what’s up), encourages Joyce to seek self help and provides contact information (presumably for a counseling center or help-line), shows a complete respect for Joyce’s desire not to talk about the bad thing, and for her trouble gets put down by Joyce. Annnnnnd all that gets interpreted as being malicious and bongo-ier than a rumba band?
Or, since Roz jumped on her immediately after her outburst and before Joyce had much time to think beyond it, that this came about as part of her natural thought processes. You know, like standing up to her parents over Dororthy, or placing her friendship with Becky over words on a page.
This isn’t pushing, it’s attacking. She doesn’t need to be attacked to grow as a person, especially since this came right after she had a huge self revelation.
There are over six billion people on the world. Expecting all of them to react to new information that makes them question their own beliefs in the same way and just as quickly makes about as much sense as believing in scientific creationism. Some people are able to do it very quickly, some people take months or weeks. Telling them to hurry up isn’t helping.
I am curious. Which person in need of help has turned to Joyce, asking for aid, and has then been turned away because they did not comply with her religious beliefs? In fact, which person has even been denied friendship or companionship by Joyce by virtue of religious beliefs?
How can it be a self revelation when the revelation in question has no bearing on her personal behaviour?
It is demonstrably not the case that Joyce needs what Roz is doing to change. Joyce changed her mind last night, because Becky came out to her. Roz had nothing whatsoever to do with it. All Roz is doing is attacking someone who’s already changed her mind for not having done it earlier. And that’s really not a good way to convince people that they should change their minds…
Not really … that would be a black out … my understanding is that if you’ve had a black out you are likely to get a hangover, but lots of people get hungover without blacking out …
Both are states indicating you’ve had way too much to drink … but, the hangover is primarily caused by compounds other than the alcohol, while the blackout is because you’ve been a dumb ass and had way way too much alcohol, too fast … if you do this using something relatively pure like say vodka you can have a blackout, wake up covered in your own vomit and not get more than a mild headache (this last part is from a personal experience …) …
Needless to say if you’re experiencing this you have being really stupid and probably have a serious problem …
Not only blackouts, but general forgetfulness. If only you could reach into the archives of past thoughts and remember exactly what you were thinking or saying before you lost your train of thoughts the way you can with internet comments.
She’s afraid and hurt. I’m surprised she didn’t bolt without saying anything to Leslie at all.
I kind of hope Leslie takes this opportunity as a teachable moment for the rest of the class (Roz) and explains that you NEVER know what’s going on in someone’s life by their outward appearance, and that being a bongo to them doesn’t make them open up or apologize any faster.
What did Roz want Joyce to do? Fall down on the floor bawling and beg forgiveness for having been born into a fundie family and allowing her mind that had been molded since birth along those lines to follow normal psychology and protect herself by conforming to her parents’ expectations? To immediately jump on a nearby girl and have a public make-out session in the classroom and declare that a video of it will be up on YouTube at the end of class?
I was late commenting on yesterday’s strip because of life, but Roz can just fuck the hell off. She thinks she doesn’t need this class, but it’s obvious now that she’s pretty much the only one there who DOES.
Nnnnnnno, there’s that other person in the classroom who only just realized that lgbt people are made homless, abused, and forced to convert in the name of god. I think she could stand to learn, well, a lot from this class. A L O T.
See I don’t want Roz to be torn a new one, I want more of a strict talking-to. She needs to understand that while what she said may be true, it was not the right time, place, or tone.
All kidding aside, Jennifer Hale just brought the character to life so much more than Mark did. Actually that isn’t even a fair comparison. Hale did an excellent job, some of the best voice work in a science fiction storyline I’ve heard, never missing a beat, dramatic and funny and everything I wanted in my main MC. Mark Meer…wasn’t exactly bad…but his delivery was so wooden he might as well have been playing a talking tree. I think he was trying to emulate Babylon 5 a little too much.
Agreed. I played the first ME with Manshep, and it was… serviceable, and not the worst. Then I rebooted with a Femshep in ME2 and HOLY MOLY it was some good acting.
In other words, This is Commander Shepherd, and this is my favorite comment on the citadel.
The strongest impression I got from dudeShep’s Renegade performance was if you use the Renegade option on Conrad Verner on his third conversation in ME1. It sounded exaggerated and faked to me (which may be intentional considering the context). Did it again as ladyShep and it sounded cold and ruthless and “you really don’t think I’d pull the damn trigger right now?” as a Renegade should!
(And then it turns out ME2’s save import system had a bug where it treats that incident as if you went Renegade on him even if you had actually gone Paragon so I felt a kind of stupid validation for wanting to do that.)
I always found FemShep’s performance underwhelming, especially given how much people rave about it. I usually get bored before the end of the game and restart.
The story is that Meer was originally hired to do placeholder dialogue for DudeShep that other voice actors were going to play off of, and BioWare decided to keep him in the role. He also did the voices for the volus (voluses? voli?) and the vorcha.
What do you think Joyce is doing here? I think it’s all but stated that she’s going to find Becky to reconcile after their fight, now that this lecture has given her a new perspective.
Why would she reconcile with Becky? She hasn’t done anything wrong other than open her house to her and reorientate her entire worldview to accomadate her. Personally, I imagine she intends to stew in her guilt and self-horror like Roz wants her to.
As much progress as Joyce has made, and as much as I generally support her, I think Becky had some cause for annoyance. While I don’t have a problem with Joyce “double-checking” and trying to find a way to fit gayness being OK into her belief system and Biblical interpretation (it’s not like I haven’t done the same in the past), Becky was understandably hurt by it. Also, Joyce tried to get her to keep herself in the closet to the general public.
“I found the passage in the book that got you disowned that I can still be your best friend! Let’s go oogle boys and keep your terrible sin-filled lusts secret so I don’t look like a heathen too!”
The rest of that conversation, of course, went
“Why should you feel like a horrible person for having my back in the first place?”
“Turns out I don’t have to!”
“Then why did you need to find an excuse not to?”
Joyce’s faith in the bible is stronger than her faith in the person standing in front of her. This is exactly what the church taught Joyce to do, and it’s hurting Becky.
“Joyce’s faith in the bible is stronger than her faith in the person standing in front of her. This is exactly what the church taught Joyce to do, and it’s hurting Becky.”
So much this. And it’s a really hard thing to break. Empathy & loving people the way that they feel loved are not high up on most Christians’ priority lists. Especially fundamentalist Christians. Rather, they don’t understand that the love they’re showing is actually toxic.
Oh, absolutely. But Roz and Leslie or the rest of the class don’t know that. What they saw was someone who has trouble fitting in getting bullied out of the classroom.
Why would Joyce apologize? She’s struggling but I’m inclined to think Becky would be kind enough to know actions speak louder than words given the lengths Joyce is going for her, up to and potentially getting her kicked out of the college.
Joyce has simultaneously been very excellent to Becky and in more subtle ways not very accepting of her. As much as the one might overshadow the other, I’m sure she wants to be better.
That’s assuming Joyce realizes that she can be kicked out of college for shielding Becky like she’s doing.
She hasn’t, to my knowledge, actively sought out a permanent solution to the Becky situation. She’s currently living in a cocoon of denial, hoping she can shield her friend from … consequences. But the dogs are closing, she’d better act quickly.
Things will not end well if she doesn’t.
The irony is, there are people around her who could help her. She has made connections who could make a difference but, like her situation with Ethan, she needs a third party to force her to see the truth of her situation. I think she’ll be quite happy to remain within that bubble; the reckoning will be worse if she doesn’t take her own steps for a plan of action.
Or, perhaps, she would have asked to leave ANYWAY, because Leslie’s statements about the danger LGBT+ youth face shook her and made her worry about Becky wandering campus alone, but then Roz had to jump in and get herself kicked out of class.
Joyce consistently doesn’t like loud confrontations – she had a similar reaction when Sarah and her neighbors started fighting over what to do about the rapist who attacked her. She shuts down fights by removing herself from them and taking the emotional heat on herself. It would only make sense to her to solve both problems by asking that Roz be allowed to stay in class and “volunteering” to leave, since she was going to leave anyway.
You don’t learn about the consequences of your actions by some ally (which is what she is until proven otherwise) yelling at you for changing your worldview.
The point that a lot of us are trying to make is that Roz’s outburst did not occur in a vacuum with no history. Instead, it was part of an ongoing series of confrontations in which Joyce has perpetually berated and derided Roz’s very existence, even when Roz was trying to sincerely be helpful. We’d like just a bit of acknowledgement that up until today, Joyce has been the one bullying Roz, albeit cluelessly–which may, in turn, explain why Roz has less patience with Joyce’s cluelessness in other arenas.
No, as inappropriate as Roz was in throwing her tantrum, I suspect that’s exactly what Joyce did. She has a strong moral compass, she’s not going to be give in over things that weren’t wrong.
I really expect that we’ll see that to the extent shame is what chased her from the class, it will only be in having realized there are things she needs to put right.
You mean she should turn Becky out? Because all Joyce has done has been to help Becky and show ill-advised emotional support. I never thought I’d hate a DoA character as much as Ruth but given she’s turned out to be a very troubled woman, Roz has shot to the list of horrible people in this comic.
I believe you should look up the word “blindly” given Joyce has dramatically changed her values given they are incompatible with what was taught by her church. Blindly would imply she doesn’t see and doesn’t change. Roz can very comfortably sit on her high horse given she’s probably never changed a viewpoint in her life.
I agree with you on two of those things, but “blindly following an organization”? Get the fuck out of here with that. She did not choose to follow her religion. She was born and raised in a protective cocoon of ignorance that her parents put up around her until she came to this college. She was never taught any other way of thinking because she was home-schooled. Joyce was brainwashed from day one, so how dare you accuse her of willful ignorance.
Like when she blindly followed her parents’ demand to distance herself from the evil atheist heathens? Or when she turned away Becky and called her dad like her local priest would have instructed her. Honestly, in the 4-5 weeks Joyce has attended college, she’s changed her mind on so many things, so quickly that I’m not always sure I can take it seriously. It astounds me that anyone can say she’s making progress too slowly because if she went any faster, she’d outrun Sonic the Hedgehog.
That’s an interesting alternative, and honestly I’m actually a little more interested in that conversation than the Becky one (it just seems a little more complex to me, though both are sure to be fantastic moments in terms of writing and Joyce’s development), but I think Becky is just way higher on Joyce’s radar now.
Though, tangentially, I now have the amusing mental image of Joyce deciding she desperately needs to both reconcile with Becky and break up with Ethan, and deciding to do both by running by Ethan and yelling “I AM BREAKING UP WITH YOU, BYE” on her way to Becky.
Frankly, the way her life is going not-at-all-according-to-plan I think the relationship with Ethan starts to be more of a burden for her than something of value, even including the sense of security he gives her (I mean short-term. Long term it’s obviously a horrible idea for both of them). I think she would benefit as much as him from a quick, clean breakup as soon as possible.
That could work, especially if she’s all like “BECKY! YOU HAVE TO COME WITH ME! I KNOW SOMEONE WHO CAN HELP” and Becky’s all like “NO WAY!” and then Joyce is like “She’s a LEZ! LIKE YOU!”
I’m having a moment where I see Joyce running up and shouting, “Becky! I have to introduce you to Prof. Leslie Bean!” and Becky just rolls her eyes and goes, “Yeah, right.”
Nononononono, TOWARD the woman who has actually had experience with being LGBT and homeless, not AWAY!
THIS. So much this. Leslie is the most valuable resource Becky has right now; Joyce has to get the two of them together so Becky can figure out where to go next.
sorry ninja_jesus, that was uncalled for and ive got nothing against you. I’m just very angry with all the hate towards roz here. Roz has a solid point, even if she’s making it in a mean way. This kind of downpour of hate towards her from the same board that glorifies mike for being an asshole for shits and giggles is pissing me off.
Honestly, I empathize with Joyce a lot more here because I knew someone like Joyce, and I’ve been Roz to that person. I almost immediately regretted it because it had the immediately opposite effect of what I desired. To me, Roz is making the mistake that I’ve made a while ago, and if I could go back and punch myself, I would. Being cruel to a sensitive person doesn’t achieve good results, regardless of whether or not you’re right or wrong.
Mike is an established asshole in every situation. He’s more like a force of nature then a 3d character. Is mike talking? Then he’s being an asshole. “Mike is an asshole” was the whole of his character description in one universe at one point. Thus expectations are low.
Most of the other characters, Roz included, are more complex and thus one can judge them more harshly. Though actually, I think that if Mike was swapped in to do this entire scene, people would come down harder on Mike then they normally do as well. And though we don’t see his facial expressions change much, Mike also probably has a very punchable smug-face. Like Roz! (Smug faces are often the most punchable of faces)
‘How DARE you grow as a person you evil fundy brat, and how DARE it take you longer than five seconds’ is not a solid point. And that was the only point Roz was making.
Oh wow. Did NOT see this coming…probably should’ve considering we’ve got a lot to build up to. Here’s to more growth and development for Joyce…like true self acceptance kind of growth…not the half assed BS she’s been able to get away with until now.
If Roz opens that claptrap of hers to add anything more to what just happened I swear to God….*too furious to actually think of what to do to horribly mane and mangle her fragile & pretentious psyche*
I wouldn’t call saying “no” to the parents you have honored and submitted to your entire life half-assed BS. That took some real gumption, more than many of us would have had in her shoes.
I love Rox, I really do, but after the last strip; I just want to slap the taste out her mouth! Rox needs to sit her ass down, since she obviously ignoring ho destructive the lifestyle she is living can be.
The important thing to remember is Roz is righteous and everyone else can go suck a lemon. After all, she knows everything and doesn’t have to change her worldview to accommodate others.
Out of curiosity, does anyone else see how TOXIC this view is? Or are we just assuming since she follows views we all agree with, that doesn’t mean she has to change?
I’m not entirely sure what you mean, but you’re making me a bit uneasy. I don’t like Roz, but I don’t think her stubborn personality reflects badly on her beliefs, and I don’t think she’s been shown any reason to change her them–only her attitude towards others. As much as I hate the vindictive way she’s acting, I can sympathize with how becoming involved with social justice issues can make one bitter towards the largely uncaring world.
I work in academia and I guess I’m identifying Roz with a lot of people who are basically, “one issue voters.” As a big proponent of social justice, I try and instill in my students and fellow coworkers that you can’t just be involved in one issue but the whole spectrum of trying to rectify problems. Roz hits my irritation button because I’ve met a lot of people who don’t care a wit about anything beyond their specific issue. In Roz’s case, she seems to have basically just written off Joyce as the fundamentalist girl and misses that said beings often have their own serious issues and need of compassion.
And maybe she could have had a really interesting discussion about it with Joyce, during or after class, which could have cemented her as a resource or even role model for the issue in Joyce’s view.
But Roz would rather get a little ‘I’m so awesome’ personal high through verbal punching.
It absolutely should have waited for after class, if Roz had enough patience for it. Just as the day’s lessons have brought Joyce to a boiling point wherein she burst into her denouncement of the church’s actions towards queer people, Joyce’s outburst (and more importantly the lack of self-awareness within it) brought Roz to a boiling point where she felt compelled to speak up even through Leslie’s urgings to stop. Roz IS a hothead, and that’s one of her bigger flaws, but this did not just happen spontaneously, and not just for personal gratification.
I do. I remember once hearing something along the lines of: “Some of the worst crimes in history were performed by people who believed that they were absolutely right”.
Yeah, it’s kind of effed that Joyce still thinks she’s absolutely right to physically assault someone (almost twice) for… getting over a bad date quickly?
It’s not just you. Roz can believe or convince herself that this is all about taking a stand against social injustice or whatever, but not only are her methods scarcely validated as more than a phase 1st-world ‘have’ youngsters eventually outgrow, it seems to be more about attention-grabbing than anything that’ll aid making her mark in the world 4 to 10 years down the line, or do jack shit for improving anyone else’s life…Or even her’s, for that matter.
I think what irks me the most is that what she’s trying to do is end a lot of discrimination against people who are open about their sexuality and/or have different takes on sexuality, but she goes about this… by discriminating fundamentalist christians.
Yeah, I get those are the people she’s been against, but discriminating others so you can try and end discrimination… is kind of counter-productive.
“Discriminating”. That word doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means.
Roz isn’t attempting to deny Joyce’s right to get married, or to live where she wants, or to be employed where she is qualified to work. She’s not pushing for Joyce to be denied charitable services when needed, for that matter. In fact, on one of the two occasions we have of them speaking to one another prior to this, she actively sought to get Joyce in touch with helping services, out of concern for her (despite obviously disdaining her religious views).
Yes, she’s being mean in these strips. She’s being aggressive. But accusing her of seeking to ‘discriminate’ against Joyce is absurd, and just attempting to use a word that pushes people’s buttons.
(Is now having flashbacks to the great Aggie Is/Is Not A Bully Debate from the Penny & Aggie forums….)
Two fold for me. On the one hand, Roz is everything I hate when it comes to things like social justice. So for the most part I would be anti-Roz, to the point that I’d probably get in trouble.
HOWEVER.
Joyce’s hypocritical outburst flipped an entire row of rage switches in my head, to the point that, were some form of me in that classroom, I’d have probably said the same thing, but admittedly out of anger, and not out of a need to “teach” her anything.
“How dare the people I look up too try and convert the gays into the straights! that’s terrible!”
“Tambourine, you’re a beard with delusions of grandeur, shut the hell up.”
Which threads are you reading? Because this massive lovefest for Roz that you seem to think is happening? It isn’t happening. Most of us on her side have taken the view, “This is something Joyce needed to hear, but the timing is unfortunate and Roz is likely being too aggressive.”
OTOH, Joyce’s defenders? Have called for Roz to get punched in the face, and have used a specific gendered slur so often that Our Host felt the need to install the bongo filter.
I don’t think Joyce gives a hanky panky about Roz’s feelings at the moment. She just needs to be somewhere else. Probably where Becky is, but it doesn’t hurt that it gives her an excuse to leave the classroom.
I’m a Roz supporter, but she wasn’t in the right, what she said has merit; but the way she said was excusable really. She could’ve said what she said in a more “on the level” way, but all I saw was a self righteous bongo in the last panel, no better then those she was talking about.
It would have been satisfying, but it would also have meant outing someone in a bad situation the minute after it hit home just how dangerous that could be. So, credit to Joyce for not using Becky as ammunition against Roz.
That’s because we’re afraid of pain. The truth is, though, some times we can’t stop it or avoid it, and when we try, it just hurts all the more.
She has to make that stand, and she shouldn’t stand alone. Other people actually knowing what’s at stake, aside from an abstract concept, will help her do that.
I have a hard time, sometimes, following stories in webcomics. Reading one page at a time, especially in a four-panel format, means I miss a lot of connections and details. So I don’t know if this is something everyone but me has realized because I’m dense or if it’s an actual revelation, but it just struck me.
Great connection. I had put it together that Roz didn’t know about Becky but I hadn’t realized that there was a misdirect that makes her scorn more sympathetic.
… that is brilliant … so does this mean Roz is in part reacting to Joyce trying to suck up to Leslie? … does she feel like her ‘special’ relationship with Leslie is threatened by this somehow?? (I’m hypothesizing about Roz’s views here in case that’s unclear)
(I’m so glad there is still a few threads in the comments that haven’t been consumed by flaming and hate.)
I’m not sure I’m getting the same interpretation. Especially when Roz pointedly asked, “Something happen?” when she was criticizing Joyce’s sudden concern for the issue. It sounds more like she’s referring to something outside of the classroom, whether she knows anything about the hypothetical situation or not. Joyce’s emotional response shows that something about the conversation is hitting close to home for her, and Roz is picking up on that (but she’s not impressed because, you know, Joyce’s attitude up until recently).
Still, if it does turn out that she thinks it’s about Leslie then that could be interesting!
I think I may be doubly affected by this for an odd reason. One of the big books which turned me away from fundamentalism to a more encompassing Christianity was, of all books, Carrie. I’ve always identified with Carrie White and sympathized with the horrific mental abuse she suffered from both her parents as well as Classmates. I may be too hard on Roz because she reminds me of the girls who bullied Carrie to insanity. Part of the reason for Carrie’s unpopularity was she parroted many of her mother’s fundamentalist views and this caused the more liberal classmates to bully her viciously. So, really, I can’t help but think of Roz as the girl dumping pig’s blood on poor Joyce.
+1!!!
That’s exactly what the last few pages got me thinking about, too. Even made me pull my copy off the shelf to read a bit. I get how many people don’t like Joyce, but she’s at least trying to be a good person, and that’s more than a lot of people can say. She’s just doing it the only way she knows how, and she’s learning how to do so better with each passing day.
This situation is kinda like the Allegory of the Cave, where the cave represents Joyce’s strict religious upbringing, and after she’s put outside in the light, when she goes to comment about the wonders of the world, some outside person goes, “Well, duh. How could you have not noticed something so obvious? You should be ashamed of yourself, you fucking cave-dweller.”
The thing is, I’m not sure Roz is out of the cave herself. How much has she questioned her beliefs? She’s very sympathetic to a liberal audience because, hey, we agree with her values but I’m not sure she grew up with much critical self-examination.
Ah, back in school, when there was a discussion between a teacher and my classmates. And I delivered arguments for both sides. And my classmates really didn’t like it. (=
What’s fun is arguing the side that no one likes to even acknowledge. I remember arguing against the Sons of Liberty in elementary school for being thugs, to the chagrin of everybody else (we were role-playing in class, and this is in the US). I’m almost surprised they didn’t send me to Canada, just like in the actual Revolutionary War. Woulda served me right for pointing out that tarring and feathering a person is a horrible thing to do.
A good argument is always fun. You do have to look out for the bad ones, but when you find one where both sides are doing their best to prove their point without disrespecting each other, it can be… fulfilling.
If Joyce is overly reliant on her Bible and the interpretations she’s been spoon-fed for it, Roz has very likely had to fight tooth and nail for every one of her beliefs already–we’ve seen how Robin treats her, and there’s the whole no-birth-control thing. It’s very likely that Roz’s sole learned mode of communication is confrontation, just like Joyce’s is attempting to use really, really horrible parables.
I don’t hate Joyce. I’m loving watching her grow as a person. I’m just frustrated about the fact that Roz is somehow not getting the same degree of latitude.
It’s not that the DeSantos didn’t approve of contraceptives, they just plain didn’t use them a lot and ended up having at least three kids, probably more.
I doubt Robin actually believes the shit she spews and probably just says it so she can curry favour with her conservative voters. If she has the same backstory as in the Walkyverse, then she’s a bi woman raised by a mother who instilled a belief that it was totally okay to be who you are as long as you’re a good person, without any contradiction in her religion (and if I recall correctly, Walkyverse!Robin was Christian as well). She seem pretty thrilled to be at Robin’s wedding to Leslie.
I don’t know. On one hand I can believe that, while Roz has the right ideals, she needs to temper them and learn when it’s appropriate to start shouting them, and it’s kind of shitty to flip out at someone for not learning the right thing fast enough. On the other hand, I doubt Willis would ever write a sex positive, liberal feminist apologizing to a Christian fundamentalist for saying mean things.
Well, I thought that when I catch up with old comics it will be weird to me to see those characters without fifteen years of baggage. And I was right, but I am glad to see that some of them (like for example Leslie) didn’t change so much.
The thing is: Love isn’t the same as “non-violence” or “non-aggression”. A lot of horrible things are done in the name of “love” in some form, like war. Love is even an inspiration for hate itself.
This is true. It addition I would add that “hate” and “love” are not opposites. The opposite of “love” is indifference. (Yes, I know I did not come up with this. But for the life of me I can’t remember where I first heard it.)
I never got that. The opposite of love is hate, the opposite of passion is indifference. That’s like saying ‘the opposite of turning right is not turning anywhere.’
Jesus, stop stomping all over my inspirational MLK quotes.
“Ah, but what you don’t understand is that I cannot understand the shade and hue of things that aren’t explicitly said. Can you clarify your pithy statement with a bullet ed list of the definitions of love you are using?”
As if Dorothy was going to bring up any of these subjects.
This isn’t about “hate” or “love”; it’s about facing up to life and becoming a fully rounded human being.
Joyce is I think one of those people who will hide until forced to face the illogic of the situation that she herself has built. It’s the “dumbing” in the “dumbing of age”.
1. Joyce’s next conversation with Becky.
2. Joyce’s next conversation with Ethan.
3. Leslie ripping Roz a new one for her appalling attitude and behavior toward her fellow classmate.
Roz does need to be set straight on the difference between having liberal opinions and actually being a good/kind person. She has been failing at the latter pretty significantly in several of her appearances, and I hate to see someone who could be as awesome as her hovering around the same level of hateful mean-spiritedness as Mary.
Anyone else notice that Roz did not have a word to say against Joe? His dismissal of the depressing statistics from earlier and his stereotypical views of lesbian women obviously contributes to the problem of how lesbians are viewed and treated in society yet its “the fundie” who did not know any better and who is deeply moved by these statistics that she gets all righteous with.
Am I the only person that likes Joe? I mean, he isn’t exactly the most sensitive or thoughtful person in the world, but he’s not trying to force others to accept his philosophy and his behavior is pretty harmless compared to other people in DoA’s cast (looking at you, Ruth). He might not step out of his comfort zone a whole lot, but as long as it’s not hurting anyone I don’t really see any problem with it.
Besides, with Walky’s calc. quiz freakout and Joyce’s crisis of faith, someone’s gotta pick up the comic relief slack.
Hell, the only active dislikes I can come up with are Blaine, Faz and Mary, whom I will happy ship off together on a desert island someplace–Mary and Faz can do the thing, and Blaine can critique every aspect of their lives, and the rest of the cast will be happier for it. Hell, I’d be tempted to push for a Kickstarter to fund a Slipshine story about that, because I really, really am a horrible person sometimes.
That said, all of these folks have some really, really frustrating moments of self-blindness and backsliding even when they get things right, and it drives me up the wall precisely because I like them so much. And yes, that includes Joe.
Well, the latter two are comedy relief. The whole point of comedy relief is to step back and laugh.
With Roz, we didn’t step back. We became engaged, drawn in by our emotions. Doesn’t excuse the worst of our behavior, but it does illustrate the difference. Were Roz to have been comic relief, I would expect more disengagement.
I’m inclined to think that, while Mike has value of putting people right in front of their hypocrisies and his asshole-ness has a point for others, and Joe is more of a comic relief you rarely take seriously, Roz’ activism has always been about herself, and she doesn’t get any other redeeming characteristics.
(plus, if we remember the other universe and Jacob, she is basically three quarters of a rapist.)
I think Joe is an incredibly shallow person, Mike isn’t a lovable rogue but a genuinely bad person, and Roz is just plain mean and self-involved. There, do I get to complain? 🙂
If Jail is somehow on Go due to your space warp, do not collect 400 dollars. If Jail is somehow on Free Parking due to your space warp, do not collect Free Parking benefits.
Roz is still three-quarters of a rapist in this comic, by her own logic. If Joyce, by associating with the church and religion, is fully complicit in and thoroughly guilty of all the bad things they do whether she knew about them or not, then Roz, by associating with that specific party and its attempted-rapist, is fully complicit in and thoroughly guilty of the attempted rape of Joyce, whether she knew it or not.
IIRC, she was very smug about the whole thing, too. ‘Ha ha ha, I bet miss fundy got schooled in the real world’ sort of thing. At least, until she found out that something happened. At which point her reaction was basically ‘aw, have a piece of tagboard! bye now.’
I don’t remember anyone screaming at Roz in the middle of class ‘Where was all your concern and outrage when we were helping our drugged, wounded, traumatized friend back to the dorm? All those people who condone rape because hey, it’s a party and she was asking for it? That was you.”
SHe showed up later with a pamplet to help Joyce find someone to talk about what happened to her…
Joyce squealed that she was trying to convert her to a coven…so yeah Roz tried to help and got called a witch (after being called a stripped to the roots harlot)
Who said Joe was deep? I’m pretty sure everyone agrees that he has shown nothing but shallowness. Yes, people do like Mike, but the reason people are upset with Roz is because Roz crossed a line. Mike knows when to stop. Roz intentionally disrespected Leslie, and instead of letting Joyce learn from her mistakes, yelled at her.
So am I the only person who holds a warm glimmer of hope that the end of this conflict is Roz and Joyce becoming friends? Cause I can see it, faintly in the distance, with just a bit more common ground.
No. I can see Roz playing a role in the possibly soon to be coming confrontation between Becky and her dad. She’d definitely be on Joyce’s side then, despite the hostility now.
What do you mean? There’s not a whole lot of history here, so it ends at, oh, four weeks ago, comic-time. During which, Joyce has been nothing but critical of Roz about things that are none of her gosh-dang business.
I mean when does it stop. If Roz gets to be awful to Joyce because Joyce was awful to Roz, where does it end? When has each side suffered enough to declare a winner? Is there really a winner?
I won’t ask what good it does, because the fact is that if any good comes out of these fights, it’s entirely accidental.
Joyce just may be going to get Becky and that would be a good move, but I wonder? If she was doing that, wouldn’t she have said, wait please – I’ll be right back?”
Meanwhile, Joyce’s mother is bound to be on her way to the college to see these classmates who ‘stole her daughter’s phone and hollered about ‘worshipping Satan’ into it. And who is she going to find with Joyce?
Becky is about to be reveled to her dear loving Mum & Dad methinks.
Joe, you went on a date with her! A few weeks ago! And got your ass beat in the process! I’m pretty sure you should remember the names of the people involved for a good while afterwards!
Well, aleast he knows when he should stay put and when not to, not many seems to manage doing that really, which just even further proves he and dorothy are best suited for each other;)
He’s really just moral support in this situation. Becky’s not staying with him, he’s got nothing to really add and he usually just makes Joyce feel worse on his own.
What I appreciate about you, Roz, is that you are representing a legitimate anger. Joyce was tacitly bolstering positions and an institution that is actively harmful to her best friend, sister, ‘boyfriend’/object of lust, and to Roz (let’s not forget the super slut-shamey warning Joyce was giving her 2 or 3 weeks ago (comic time) about the spiritual ‘consequences’ of sex outside of marriage). It’s not as though Joyce couldn’t have questioned her brand of christianity’s attitude to sexuality before, she just didn’t have incentive because she, personally, was comfortable. Yes, she’s coming around, but that doesn’t spare her from examining or being confronted with her previous inaction and the role that plays.
No, demanding to drag someone’s personal life into the classroom isn’t cool (and it seems like it’s breakin’ some class rules to boot) – but asking where that outrage was yesterday is not an unfair question.
And now because I’m a jerk and have a busy day I’m going to ghost. *poof*
People keep bringing up the slut-shaming, and it’s a good point…but if that is part of Roz’s motivation, she really shouldn’t be using homeless LGBT kids as a cover for her own grievances.
I don’t think she is using homeless LGBT kids as a cover for her own grievances. I think that’s just the conversation that triggered Joyce’s public turn around, which in turn elicited Roz’s response which is germane to that issue as well as the casual, yet aggressive slut shaming.
If those institutions are to move away from homophobia and be confronted with their problems, they need people like Joyce to be informed of their problems so they can be rectified.
That is true – but the onus to look into things is on those within the institution. Sheltered though she may be, Joyce has not been without a choice to really think through the whole homosexuality issue before – she just hasn’t had the self-interest as an incentive to do so.
I get the sense from other comments that your problems with this arc are:
1) You don’t like Roz based on some personal associations which lead you to think of her as the kind of bully you’d find in a Stephen King novel. I think this is a view of the character not truly borne out by the strip so far. Roz is blunt and stubborn and, yes, gives Joyce grief for being a fundie. And Joyce gives grief back on at least one occasion. But when Roz believes that Joyce is truly vulnerable and hurting after the incident at the first party of the year – Roz encourages her to seek and provides information for how to go about it. For all her abrasiveness, Roz doesn’t seem to be truly malicious towards Joyce at all.
2) You don’t like the way Roz is delivering information. And well, I don’t really see an obligation for her to put things to Joyce in the kindest possible way. And well…see original comment.
I’m twelve and you wouldn’t be able to tell. In the past three years i think my faith in God is stronger than ever, and the funny thing about this all is that pretty much grew up into the sucky evil shitty world of the internet, and I came out alive.
The one thing I don’t like about this is that Joyce is running away from her problems AGAIN – hoping for someone like Dorothy to come comfort her.
Yes she has good reason to, after Roz’s attack. But at some point she’s going to need to bunker down and fight her own battles, like what she did for Dorothy.
Does she actually need to? If Roz hadn’t attacked her, Joyce would probably just have sat through the class. She’s just using it as an excuse not to have to put up with being attacked anymore.
So, one thing that keeps on rumbling through my mind is, there’s a bunch of people who’re cheering Roz on saying “What Joyce needs is tough love.” But, I can’t help but feel that even if this is actually an attempt at tough love as opposed to scoring points or getting a dig in at someone she doesn’t like, it’s the worst kind of tough love. Seriously, it is the opposite of helpful.
And to those saying, “But Joyce needs some tough love,” I totally agree. And she is already getting it. I mean, that’s kinda Sara’s deal. She’s grumpy, she’s cynical, but she’s also really good at getting to the heart of the matter in a way that’s helpful. Most of the times that Joyce has needed help, Sara’s been there to offer it. Heck, with the Becky thing, Sara has been watching Joyce’s back, whether it was by figuring out that something was up and making sure Becky didn’t have something bad for Joyce planned or by telling Joyce that she had to come up with a long term plan because Becky just can’t hide there forever.
So, yeah. I can understand why people emotionally sympathise with Roz. I can understand why some people really don’t like the Church. But to say that Roz is dropping truth bombs that need to be dropped because otherwise Joyce is getting coddled is utterly absurd because Sara’s already there and showing how truth bombs should be dropped with style and grace.
I agree. Life doesn’t spare Joyce any punches right now. She was already reduced to tears before roz started to speak. Who knows what she would have learned if she could have stayed throughout the lesson.
I do think Roz served an important function for the story, bringing the protagonist down to her lowest point, creating tension and drama and so on, but we shouldn’t confuse the needs of the story with the needs of its characters.
Pretty sure Roz has no idea who Sarah is, and certainly doesn’t know what she’s saying to Joyce in their dorm. Also knows nothing about Becky. She just heard a till-then homophobic fundamentalist have an outburst and was unimpressed.
I think that’s just a case of which social circle the comic focuses on. There are plenty of girls we only see as background extras with one or too reactionary lines now and then. It’s easy to imagine Roz hanging out with them.
Also, she obviously knows older students if her being comfortable with inviting people to the party is anything to go by, and she is probably involved in some sort of SexEd organization, and if her interaction with Joe is anything to go by she probably spends a night at the boys dorm now and then (and high fives Joe in the morning as they meet each other on the way back to respective dorm), so she has plenty of possible interaction with people we never see.
So, it’s not stranger that we don’t see more of Roz than, say, Agatha (or Sierra for that matter, even if she is roommate with one of the main protagonists)
Roz not knowing who Sarah is would be a great point if I were talking to her. This is more meant as a counter to other commenters saying Joyce needs to hear the harsh truths in order to be a better person. Basically, it is my attempt to say that there are different ways to try and get hard truths across, and that Sarah’s method is, by and large, more empathetic and probably effective than what Roz is up to, which mostly just seems traumatic.
bringing up Sara is interesting as I think it illustrates what I don’t like about Roz’s actions quite well.
Ultimately I feel like Roz’s actions don’t ever come from a place of empathy. That is to say that when Roz does something she isn’t motivated by much beyond how she thinks it will make people admire her.
Am I the only one who would honestly like to high-five Roz right now? She’s correct about everything she said and it’s genuinely not her problem if that makes Joyce feel bad.
Joyce should feel bad. Up until Becky showed up, Joyce was morally reprehensible.
Well, given I think Roz is a bully who punches down and enjoys lording her superiority over people she thinks are not “good” people, I certainly disagree with you. Roz is pretty much Mary, IMHO, and a terrible example of a person.
dude hating on Roz, while it can be easy, is pretty much stooping to her level, I think a huge message here is that even when evil and hate can be justified, it isn’t good.
I would really like to see you respond to the fact that Roz tried to help Joyce on at least one occasion (and, if Joyce hadn’t been so convinced Roz is a soulless witch, her help would’ve been the best thing that could’ve been done for Joyce, possibly mitigating her subsequent PTSD).
what on earth kind of comparison is that? I missed the part where Roz abused and ostracized Joyce for years and then tricked her to gain her trust before publicly humiliating her. Oh wait it’s more like two peers having it out verbally. not to mention Joyce clearly has the support of Dorothy and the teacher so yes of course you’re right it’s exactly like Carrie
If gay oppression was really what Roz’s anger is about, why didn’t she call out Joe’s dismissal and rude treatment of lesbian women? At the very least she has a major double standard going on.
No amount of tone issue is going to make me think Roz is wrong.
That doesn’t mean I think Joyce is a bad person. Generally, she makes compassionate choices about the people around her while using her faith to empower her. However, in attempting to convert Ethan she is generally in step with how “the church” has been framed as acting in the comic (I still find it weird a specific denomination hasn’t come up). And while she now thinks homosexuality might not be a sin, I feel like she might walk back that notion just like she reserved the right to walk back calling out the church. Even if she doesn’t, it seems like she realized it was hurtful to Becky to frame her identity as having the possibility of being sinful.
On the subject of the conversion, Joyce inadvertently admitted she’s trying to convert her boyfriend and Dorothy didn’t follow up on that at all. Unlike, say, Sarah, who clearly cares about Joyce but is willing to push on all of her preconceived notions.
And finally, Roz isn’t privy to all the growth we see Joyce going through, and yet still managed to call Joyce on her behaviour accurately. She holds beliefs blindly until they intersect with people she cares about, then she actually considers them. She should think about them first! Or at the very least, realize she hasn’t thought about them and keep mum before she spouts them off as immutable truths. When Joyce presents the doctrine of her church without having considered it, she’s not exercising her individuality at all. She is essentially a mouth piece of the church.
Roz was harsh, but I think Joyce realizing that she should evaluate her views as a whole is something worth getting harsh about. Homosexuality can’t just be okay for her best friend.
There’s also the fact she’s basically responding in kind to some of Joyce’s proclamations. Joyce literally said that Roz’s soul is like a flower ripped down to the roots because she chooses to have sex. I find a statement like that to be way more offensive than a statement about holding views without introspection.
What you’ve basically said is Roz is going to talk about a person she knows nothing about in the most hurtful manner possible. She does it to hurt Joyce and knowingly so despite the fact she knows NOTHING ABOUT HER other than her own image. I can talk smack about Brad Pitt all I want but I don’t KNOW Brad Pitt so it’s pretty dumb to do so.
Roz knows what she knows about Joyce’s opinions based on how Joyce has presented herself, and despite that being a fairly limited picture, she has accurately described Joyce’s thought process in changing her views.
That doesn’t mean that she magically knows the series of words that will make Joyce sad. She says that Joyce is “the church” because Joyce presents herself as a representative of her religion/her god/”the church” with almost everything she says and does.
I dunno where you’re pulling this Brad Pitt comparison from, but if you’ve been in a class sharing opinions on gender with Brad Pitt, then, yes, you can respond to the views he’s expressed.
I’m prepared to cut Dorothy slack on not following up on “Joyce is trying to de-gay Ethan” for the moment. Even if she worked it out right away, Joyce then explained that she’s sheltering her gay friend in her room, which is a more immediately pressing problem and probably took up whatever discussion time they had before the class they’re in right now. One problem at a time.
Also, I’d like to point out that Dorothy may actually INTEND to talk about the fact Ethan is gay to Joyce but may want to think about how to approach the issue first given it’s not something you can just lecture someone on. Also, the small issue of the fact he’s a closeted gay man who has not chosen to reveal his sexuality to Dorothy. I.e. it’s an issue which needs to be addressed but maybe you should take a minute to think how to approach it with your new best friend who you know is very emotionally vulnerable.
Oh, for Heaven’s sake. Has none of you ever heard someone say “It’s not what you said, it’s how you said it?” Roz may be right factually, but she’s wrong in tone and timing.
I think in this case, it’s not so much that as who she said it to. Joyce is the fundamentalist who recently took in her lesbian disowned friend, then decided to interpret the Bible to fit her own personal beliefs, which she admitted in the same page goes against her personal beliefs.
Which she did because she needed to know she was doing the christian thing. She is also creating a template for a homosexual man to use for his self-damaging delusion of the white, straight male his mom always wanted where his sexuality isn’t a stigma or a problem.
Those last two in particular seems to piss a lot of people to the point that they approve of any negative comments sent her way.
I’m going to have to echo the sentiments of being somewhat perturbed on the tenor of the Roz hate. I mean, Joe and Mike do some really messed up stuff and its sort of handwaved off and Roz here isn’t perfect and does something unnecessarily cruel out of misplaced anger and there’s so many gendered slurs thrown at her that Willis had to put on a bongo filter.
I mean, yeah, Roz was out of line. Her statement was accurate and probably largely informed by the comments her sister made when she visited on how the college district is surrounded by and overshadowed by type of people Roz sees Joyce as embodying. Additionally, one can empathize with the fact that to her, Joyce is just the person who slut shamed her pretty painfully in the past and represents a lot of worldview that Roz has probably fought with as not only an activist, but a reproductive access activist (note that this would be a field where Christian-identified people have made a sport out of killing doctors and terrorizing women).
Does this excuse her not seeing Joyce as a person? No. Was her statement during class time at all appropriate? HELL no, and Leslie did what any good teacher would in trying to shut that down hard and she would be remiss if she didn’t follow up after class to reiterate the class rules (I’m actually genuinely curious to see that interaction).
And these are the main flaws in her approach. It’s one thing to call out hypocrisy. It’s one thing to be unkind in that approach instead of being forced into a narrow role feminist-identified women are allowed to be in when they call things out. It’s one thing to be confident in one’s beliefs, but it is another thing entirely to tear down someone so obviously in pain during class time simply because one sees them as an archetype one despises. And it is this that make her actions unacceptable at this time.
Or as someone said yesterday, she’s not wrong, she’s just being an asshole.
I agree that those slurs are just horrible. Really? Can’t we disagree with a (fictive) woman without resorting to gendered insults? Do we all live in a patriarchy or something?
Roz is pretty factually wrong too. Its pretty clear from Joyce’s reaction that she had no idea about the church’s stance on treating homosexual youth, and did not agree with it. Yet Roz is entirely basing her justification for shaming Joyce on the incorrect assumption that in the past she has supported leaving homeless youth out on the street to fend for themselves because the church said so.
I’m not a Mike apologist and like how, in the DOA universe, he’s just a bad person who enjoys manipulating and destroying people. I.e. he’s kind of a more realistic sociopath–the ones who don’t become serial killers but go on to become CEOs. In the case of Roz, I really dislike her because I’ve met a lot of people like her in real-life who barge into conversations in real life and lecture people on the “right” side without having knowledge of who they were talking to. Some self-hatred may be involved since I used to be that asshat.
She’s being a massive hypocrite, issuing a collective judgement on a single shallow thing she knows about Joyce — and pinning collective blame on her for the actions of others.
It’s no different from people who judge the entirety of all homosexuals based on lurid half-truths about anonymous gay-bar sex and dimwitted, sensationalist media coverage of the assless-chaps section of a gay pride parade.
I’d seriously contribute to a Kickstarter for an alternate timeline dealie where we get to see how Joyce would’ve reacted if this had been the syllabus for the prior week’s classes. Because frankly, I strongly suspect it would’ve been a blend of denial and apologetics. Either refusing to believe Leslie at all (ala ‘dinosaurs had feathers’), or explaining away the situation as an attempt at tough love, meant to turn the poor, Satan-deluded gay people away from the horror of their bad lifestyle choices.
Roz’s opening comment–‘Did something happen?’ in this discussion was spot-on accurate; Joyce changes her beliefs only if and when not doing so would cost her a friendship. She’s like the living embodiment of cognitive dissonance coping strategies. “Oh, you’re an atheist? Well, I guess I can forgive that, since I have the Jesus-granted power to forgive people’s sins.” “Oh, you’re gay, Ethan? Well, so long as you’re willing to try and change, you’re still okay.” “Oh, you’re a confirmed lesbian, Becky? Well, I’m not gonna turn my back on you, so let me find someone somewhere who says that’s okay with the Bible so that I don’t have to think about it too hard.”
If and when Joyce can turn her love for her friends into a view of humanity as a whole? She’s gonna be FANTASTIC. Til then… not so much.
I think Joyce will, if she has not already. She’s already made herself clear as someone who does not at all like inconsistencies from her worldview. The first thing she did after accepting Becky was search for a reason to not find homosexuality offensive in general.
People keep on treating Joyce like she’s just making exceptions for her friends, but I don’t think that’s the case. I think she’s made friends that have proved things she learned false, and adjusted the way she views the world accordingly.
Okay since the Roz discussion is still going on, and I was trying to ignore it yesterday, but here’s my two cents.
Joyce has been the “WORST CHARACTER EVER” for her fundie thinking and actions. Billie has been it for her shallowness at the beginning of the comic strip. Sarah has been it for her grouchiness. Joe has been it for his objectification of women. Danny has been it for Danning everything up. Dorothy has been it for wanting Walky to change pants and not being sensitive enough to Danny’s feels. Ruth has been the worst for actually being abusive. Becky is the worst for a desperate emotionally charged sentence and not knowing bisexuality is a thing because she’s been really sheltered. I’m pretty sure Sal has been it for accusing Walky of being whiter than her. Mike has been it for being Mike.
My point is, this comment section is always unreasonably reactionary to every plot point, and I can’t take the “Roz is the worst” seriously because next week Roz may do something cool and someone else will be doing something flawed and become the worst, when really Ryan is the worst DOA character.
Heh, only too true. And all the teachers (except Leslie) are the worst for being crappy teachers, and all the parents (with a few exceptions) are the worst for being crappy parents and David Willis is the worst because DAAAAAMN YOUUUUU.
Oh, and Blaine and Ross are up there with Ryan for being the actual worst.
But for me that’s part of the appeal with both Dumbing of Age and Shortpacked. Horribly, HORRIBLY flawed characters making each other better, and we get to see the journey. I’m actually rooting for horrible, abusive Ruth and her Stockholm syndrom relationship with the girl she bullied into her bed from her position of power.
It’s a safe bet in all these discussions that EVERYONE involved is in the wrong somehow. But the point is that they are all very human. Their flaws, their bad decisions, their abuse of each other – that’s the story. And that’s why we spent 1000+ comments discussing Roz and Joyce yesterday because that makes us part of the story.
I don’t know Mary’s backstory but I think it’d be kind of funny to find out she’s not from a fundamentalist background like Joyce but converted to religious fundamentalist from another environment. Sort of like Paige from the Americans who is a fundamentalist daughter of atheist (and communist spy) parents.
Goddamnit, Roz, I don’t like you at all right now.
I don’t like your jerk-off face, I don’t like your jerk-off behaviour, and I don’t like you.
Jerk-off.
Goddamnit, Roz, I don’t like you at all right now.
I don’t like your jerk-off face, I don’t like your jerk-off behaviour, and I don’t like you.
Jerk-off.
You know, it just occurred to me: Roz’s roommate is Mary. Roz has had very little interaction with Joyce, but she’s had a ton from Mary.
I begin to wonder how much of Roz’s hate/spite/vindictiveness towards Joyce is rooted in Roz being sick of Mary, the main Miss Fundie in her life at the moment?
Give it time. It’s only been, what, a minute tops since she opened her mouth? Given the rate this comic moves at, we should probably be hitting the end of the class in a couple of weeks.
Hopefully we won’t be seeing anything before end of class as Leslie seems like a pro.
Yeah, I’m hoping to see Leslie snag Roz on the way out of class since she’s now staying, and really pin her ears back (despite being a Roz-defender in the Great Debate).
Technically, scissoring isn’t much of a real thing among actual lesbians, as far as I know. It doesn’t work that well and it’s inconvenient and a lot of effort. There are a lot of easier, better things to do. Scissoring was mostly invented by straight-gaze lesbian porn.
Anyone else just get the hipocracy of being mad at Joyce for not immediately leaving the church due to not practicing in free thought? I mean, doesn’t free thought suggest that new decisions are considered and held up to previous evidence before being followed, and that consideration includes slowly taking in new data, trying to filter out the data which is likely false?
I mean, I always kinda got the concepts discussed, but the hipocracy was a little unexpected.
Roz’s issue is that Joyce tends to be selective in when and where she applies critical thinking–that it only seems to occur to her to question something an authority figure says IF it first impacts one of her friends. Roz, I suspect, has a life-long habit of constantly challenging authority, and probably has a default setting of ‘No, unless you give me a good reason’ when getting an order. (Look at how her confrontation with Leslie goes, as well as the prior one with the Dean.)
DAMN YOU WILLIS! IF THIS REALLY WAS YOUR DOING: https://twitter.com/damnyouwillis/status/565295854870069248 THEN DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU DAMN YOU DAMN YOU! I DON’T WANT THE DAILY SHOW TO END!!! *sob* I need my funnies *sob* No news *sob* Damn you Willis. I don’t care if you did give us bongos
.
.
.
Okay, I care a little. But still. Worst. Karma. Ever.
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BUT WHAT’S THE POINT W/O SCISSORING
There is none. Nothing has a point without scissoring.
I thought scissoring was mainly tried when neither person has a point
Otherwise you could just stick the point in, you see
Violence never solved anything!
…okay, not EVERYTHING.
…okay, not THIS thing!
In evil times like these we need Dina, our fictional blessing, WORLD PEACE!
You called?
Internet points for you.
Joe could’ve used the better excuse, “I should go after them because I don’t really care about this class anyway if you’re not gonna talk about lesbian sex”. I imagine that Leslie would’ve just let him leave if he’d said that instead. 😛
That or given him an extra assignment to penalize him for being a shit and hope he actually learns something.
So Gigafreak’s comment can be summed up to “You stick them with the Pointy end?”
There’s always docking… 😀
… Unless that seriously means something I wouldn’t expect, KEEP IT ON THE SLIPSHINE!!! O.O
(You are talking about computers, right? Or boats? Or other electronics?)
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=docking
AAAAAAAAaaaaaaugh why
Twilight, learn NOT to click these things.
I suppose that could work, to a certain extent of something working where you could then say you did that thing.
And there I was thinking of the practice of amputating dogs’ tails (adapted to humans, naturally).
Look up docking sex on Google if you dare. >:D
Look it UP?
I should teach a seminar on it
I DON’T DARE!!! That’s why I asked in parenthesis.
When a guy takes his yankie doodle and covers it with the foreskin of another guy’s uncircumsized yankie doodle. Presumably while the foreskin is still attached, otherwise that’s no longer sexual and just plain weird and also highly unsanitary.
Curtesy of Urban Dictionary.
I DIDN’T WANT TO LOOK THIS UP! WHY U GOTTA TELL?!?!
Willis, despite having likely required you to approve the most profiles of anyone here, can I ask you a favor?
Delete the comment this is responding to, and the one it’s responding to?
Uhhh, okay. Sorry, I guess. Your comment made me think you were asking for an explanation but did not want to look for it yourself.
I was hoping for a hint really. Just something to tell me if it was sex related, or if it’s like Jen’s Knockers.
Oh, FFS, unclench. It’s just something else that middle-schoolers who have never actually had sex made up in study hall because they were bored.
My understanding is that then, if so equipped, the second foreskin then covers the first.
I dare!
**two google searches later (one regular, one image with safe search off)**
Oh. I was expecting something more shocking. Am I just not appreciating this because I don’t have the proper equipment?
usually just a fetish, and something fun to do. Like licking nipples or grabbing asses.
If you want to complicate things then you could say that theoretically many gay/les people have the potential to have the instincts to sync up their gonads even if they arent made for each other. So it makes sense that such acts would exist.
Naw, I wasn’t shocked either when I first looked it up. (And I have the „proper equipment“.)
Isn’t that dick-into-dick?
YUP!
Before I heard about sodomy, that’s pretty much what I imagined gay sex was.
So… cool?
Although I still fail to see how that would actually work without putting them into toilet paper rolls or something.
Chinese finger cuffs.
Oh, yeah, and I always imagined femcum was real as well, for symmetry, even if there was no sperm involved.
You know, as fun and varied as the comments here can be, do we really want to go into a squirting debate here?
Just stopping by to express appreciation for a Joe icon asking if we really want to debate squirting.
It’s cause Roz Cut straight to it
There is no point. It’s called safety-scissoring.
Joe figures that he might get to see some if he catches up to Joyce and Dorothy.
Walky displaying a surprising amount of boyfriend-savviness for once.
And after all that drama, Joe reaffirms that he is the absolute worst.
I personally would have done that too. Sometimes I like to be the comedic relief character.
The class clown fills a function!
Or reaffirms that he breaks emotional tension by intentionally saying outrageous things to shift everyone’s focus back to bullshit and away from the drama.
Joe isn’t capable of that much emotional depth.
Oh, I think he definitely is, but if it makes you feel better, he’s doing it largely for his own benefit.
Joe is trying really hard to be shallower than he actually is. If he keeps up the pose for long enough it may become true. But it’s not true right now.
Why would anyone *try* to be shallow?
Because then people don’t go expecting things from you?
It’s also a LOT easier on the psyche…..One’s own psyche, not everyone else’s. Not unlike the life-expectancy benefits of cowardice…
With depth comes maturity and responsibility. It’s (relatively) easy to be shallow.
Because they’re scared of the depths?
Because deep down there are painful feelings and if we can just bury it in enough stupidity it’s like they doesn’t exist?
urk- *don’t exist*
If someone is shallow, people tend to avoid them like the plague, convinced that they’re a waste of time. If people avoid them, they don’t have to get involved in emotional situations. Like the ones a certain shallow pervert might be trying to run away from in the class room.
Reminds me of a coworker who was bffs with another coworker, but made the distinction that her bestie was “the fun friend”, as in “great to hang out with but I have learned better than to rely on her in case of emergency”.
It’s a pretty good defense if people believe they can’t hurt you (so it’s not worth the effort to try)
He doesn’t want to drown in himself. That’s what he won’t say outright to Danny when he thinks that Danny is trying to drown in himself.
Thonk he explained this himself in the previous discussion he had with Danny ^_^
Because things are simpler. I know that it took me a long time to realize that “simpler” did not mean “better”, and even now I miss the times when I acted shallow because things were easier if ultimately unhealthy.
Because the depths can seem bottomless.
When you stare too long into the abyss…
Because feelings means yelling a lot like his parents or Dannying things up like Danny?
If Joe is trying to be an unfeeling slab of meat with no personality then boy has he done a good job.
I have more faith in Mister Willis than that. I maintain that it’s entirely possible it’s a coping mechanism (pet theory, developed during his parent’s contentious relationship and eventual divorce). It’s a shitty assed coping mechanism, but depth is still depth.
Except that Joe knows Joyce’s name. He’s pretending not to underline his humor here.
Why do you assume he’s talking about Joyce? Maybe he’s going after Roz.
The alt-text says he already knows her name, and he knows Joyce from trying to bed her, but he probably knows Roz after all the fuss about her sister. Not to mention that he definitely knows Dorothy’s name from Danny’s stint with her, and he might be going after her with Walky.
Not that it really matters, because he’s obviously just making up excuses; just saying she’s not the only female who left the room.
Why would he want to leave if he cared for Roz? Roz is still in the classroom.
Also, it is fairly clear that Dorothy and in turn Walky are leaving because they want to help Joyce . . . Though Walky probably did so partially if not mostly because Joyce is Dorothy’s friend. Joyce shows signs of needing help, and Dorothy doesn’t, so it doesn’t make any sense for Joe to be worrying about Dorothy.
Joe certainly knows Roz. Biblically. There’s video proof and everything. But Roz isn’t leaving. (At least not in this strip. It’s still possible Leslie might drag her out by her ear to give her a dressing-down in the hallway.)
Joe certainly knows Joyce’s name, too. He’s just pretending not to because it’s funnier that way. And maybe to cover up that the rest of what he says there isn’t really a joke.
No, Walky already left — albeit for a good reason.
Your move, Roz.
No, you don’t Joe. But really, what’s stopping you from skipping class anyway?
Can’t wait for the next few comics.
The thought that he might miss the Lezbo Make-out Movie Marathon?
I wonder how many guys signed up for coursed like this thinking all they would do is watch porn movies?
Two. Joe and Walky. Because they have no common sense.
Nah, Walky’s here because he thought it’d be an easy A, and Joe’s here because most of the class is female.
Walky sure has had a hell of a day
you could say they lesleft
*ba dum ts*
Well, there are now three students Les.
I hope we get more Joe in the next couple strips
My guess is that we’ll be sticking with Joyce & friends who just ran out the door.
But I totally expected Joe to fade into the background after his confrontation with Danny and walking in late to class scene transition. The fact that he hasn’t gives me hope we’ll see more of him before this storyline is up.
Naw. I will bet like ten Internets that tomorrow’s strip won’t have Joyce, Dorothy, OR Walkie in it. No way.
Willis has mastered the ability to cliffhanger on full week updates. I’m with Kryss. It’ll be a while before we see Joyce and friends, I bet.
It’s going to stay in the classroom with Leslie calling out Roz is my guess.
I hope that since we’ve had Joe pop up and we got an extended Joe sequence with danny, that Joe plays into said calling-out.
Dealing with Stuff. Because Leslie forced him to by not letting him leave class. (and thus would begin Joe’s Stuffpocalypse.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq-p0ysCF6E
Well hopefully Rozs words have hit home
Yeah, Joyce! You’re a horrible, terrible, very bad person that deserves to feel bad about yourself for things other people did!
Please stop putting it like that, unless you seriously amp up the sarcasm ques. Because unfortunately… that’s how I feel half the time. Like I’m a horrible, terrible, very bad person (Only with a frelling conscience so that I feel guilty about all of it) due to things I wasn’t even born for and have no control over. (Red scare, slavery, book burnings, general racist bongoyness, corrupted capitalist control over everything, etc.) [Self filtered, sorry Willis. Can’t touch this!]
Being the only person to be able to recall events from my history book does NOT help. 🙁
The last line they wrote indicates sarcasm.
Yes, but you have NO IDEA how bad I am at detecting it, so it ends up hurting before the sarcasm tags trigger the correct processing unit.
Anyone who can read “A Modest Proposal” while believing every word should get at least a little assistance.
“Anyone who can read “A Modest Proposal” while believing every word should get at least a little assistance.”
You probably did not mean it this way, but that comes off as very entitled to me. People don’t have to write their comments with you in mind…
No, they don’t. But I also don’t have to refrain from asking. But seriously, that thing is dripping with it (Least according to my teacher, my classmates, my mom, and others), and I couldn’t detect any of it! Unless there’s some sarcasm detecting formula (If there is, I’ll take two.) I kinda have to pick up sarcasm from context. You say “the last line”, and I still don’t see it. It’s like while you don’t WRITE with me in mind, I have to try to READ with you in mind, which is not all that easy.
Her last line said that Joyce should feel bad for something other people did. I just worry that you think some people really believe other people should feel bad about stuff that they know is totally out of that person’s control.
I know you think that about yourself, and I want you to know that other people don’t think that about you! Take it from me, another person who blames herself for everything, it’s hard to not think that everything is my fault. I totally get it. But people only get mad at others when they truly believe that person is directly responsible for it! (At least, I think so… there’s got to be some mean person out there that blames everyone)
Also, the way I figured out sarcasm was if something sounds very weird, they are being sarcastic. Like blaming someone for something that is for sure not their fault? That’s weird and illogical, why would someone do that, most people don’t, right? Probably sarcasm. Or with the modest proposal, eating babies? It’s pretty frowned upon and illegal to be a cannibal in western culture, so it’s probably not going to be a serious writing piece. I’m still wrong sometimes, but that is my sarcasm detecting formula.^^;;
First paragraph: I am REALLY not beyond believing that airyu. There are PLENTY of sick people in this world. I think I’m almost no longer beyond believing people believe anything.
Second paragraph: I wasn’t mad. If I’m mad, I get out of control. Trust me on this, when I’m mad, you’ll know it.
third paragraph: “sounds weird” formula not found. Sorry, but these things are kinda in monotone in my head. Sometimes if people don’t add enough inflection to the right places, or add too much to the wrong places, I can’t figure it out when they are TALKING. (Turns out it’s a trait of those with Aspergers, so I guess that makes me less alone, but still)
It’s easy to miss sarcasm in text. This is one of the major pitfalls of social communication online, and no one’s really developed a consistent way of avoiding it, yet. As an ‘old geek’, one who’s been around since the days of BBS’es and MUD’s, I’ve fallen into this trap more than a few times, gotten into completely avoidable arguments simply for missing implied sarcasm.
The only solution I’ve found that works is, you simply have to take a step back. When you read something online that offends you, don’t respond immediately. Take a step back, let your temper cool, and think about something else for a minute. Minimize the window if you have to, or just step away from the computer. It helps a little, and tends to cut down on knee-jerk responses that cause escalation. After a minute, read the offending comment again. You may see it in a different light, then.
With “A Modest Proposal”, one of the things you have to remember is that Swift was himself Irish.
The part in there about how the english took everything else already, is another .
But, yes. It’s easy to miss sarcasm in text.
Especially if you don’t know the person who’s writing it to give you a reality check.
Another thing to consider is this. If you had the chance to reroll the dice, all the results from that point on would change, not just the bad parts. You wouldn’t be born, and neither would the person who you feel your “side” wronged sometime before either of you were born.
It’s one thing to feel shame for the pride your contemporaries still express for a historical act you feel is reprehensible.
It’s still another to feel you owe that other person because their ancestors were oppressed by your ancestors. Neither of you were there. It’s an accident of birth that you are both here now.
The corollary is to expect all lottery and sweepstakes winners to share their winnings with all the losers of the same game. By the time you were born, it was luck of the draw whether or not you’d be born into relative poverty, or relative wealth, into privilege or persecution.
P.S. If English isn’t a tonal language, why is there a question mark?
Also, anyone who’s heard a sarcastic statement given in a flat, or singsong, voice, should know tone plays a role.
I don’t have the ability to detect peoples intentions myself, including sarcasm, neither written nor spoken, so the solution I’ve come to myself is to ALWAYS believe the BEST choice. I.e.: if someone says/writes something I find sickening I assume they are sarcastic, if someone complements me, I assume they ARE (even if they have no reason to do so). I used to worry that this would put me at an disadvantage, but I found that there is usually no consequences and it just gives me a “nicer” world to live in.
What? But it’s the only viable solution to the irish I’ve ever seen! (this is sarcasm)
Wait what? Um… Insane, I do believe sick people exist, so that REALLY doesn’t help.
I… said it was sarcasm? I’m not sure how much more direct I can be. I’m not eating babies, promise.
Hence the need for sarcasm tags. I can see nothing in your comment other than you directly telling me that tells me you are using sarcasm, especially because of how sick people can be.
I could get behind a sarcasm tag, if we could agree to a standard one. I don’t like the whole &;ltsarcasm&;gt thing, it’s too unwieldy. It needs to be a single character that indicates a sarcastic tone. Maybe we also need one to emphasize that we’re serious again.
Eg: @No really, I like punches to the face, it’s therapeutic. #Of course, I don’t want him to hit me!
(Not necessarily those particular characters, of course, but along those lines.)
<s> is taken, but <f> (for false) and <t> (for true) don’t seem to be. Maybe we can use those.
Babies already look like potatoes! We won’t even have to dress it up!
**Our company accepts no liability for the content of this comment, or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of the information provided, .05 return in WI, void in Utah.**
No. They are too red and squishy sometimes. Like tomato-potato fusions. I suppose we woul dhave to call those fusions… tomatos. Or potatos.
… dangit, scrap this plan. It’s not going to work.
… You sure you people aren’t sick?
Anyone who can read “A Modest Proposal” and believe every word has deeper issues than wording.
“Eating Irish babies, you say? Hmm, an unorthodox solution, but intriguing. Tell me more.”
I was actually feeling sick while reading it, and going like “SERIOUSLY! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS DUDE!!!” soo… hopefully that makes me seem a little less like I have issues?
People ought learn use sarcasm tags like “/s” more often.
It can’t be repeated often enough: SOME PEOPLE AREN’T VERY GOOD AT FIGURING OUT THE TONE OF COMMENTS OVER THE INTERNET. By using two extra letters people can help remove lots of confusion/aggravation/frustration.
I’m sorry that the sarcasm wasn’t obvious enough and that you feel that way. If it helps, you can do good now. Not to make up for any sins. Do good to make the world better.
For those who aren’t so optimistic, do good things so at least you aren’t doing bad things or doing nothing at all.
The sad part is, everyone else will see it as clear as day. 🙁 I’m pathetic.
No you’re not pathetic!
Your response to my request suggests otherwise Airyu. I requested something, and your immediate response (which was just about the opposite of the response of the person I was making the request of) was that I didn’t have the right to request it.
[okay, maybe some slight annoyance is going into these words. But hey, I’m slightly annoyed.]
edit: okay, so the poster wasn’t the author. I get names and faces mixed up too. #Ifail.
Also, still supporting my belief that I’m pathetic.
Please don’t do that. I have two coworkers I still can’t keep straight.
It doesn’t help that they both have essentially the same job.
If you’re pathetic for not being able to keep people straight, (who are wearing masks in the form of cartoon characters, and in many cases, THE SAME MASK,) how much worse me, who can’t keep people, who’s faces I see on a daily basis, clearly identified as one or the other.
P.S. I’m a guy, but you’d never guess that by the face the RNG decided to attach to my name.
Please take my words at face value and do not add your own meaning to them… I never said you “didn’t have the right to ask that”; you can ask for whatever you want on the internet. I said that people don’t have to assume you will read their comment, and therefore don’t have to alter their response with the expectation that you will read it. That’s all.
Also, above, I never thought you were mad… I assume most people on the internet aren’t angry, since it’s really hard to type when anger or sadness happens. I’m also not neurotypical, and have a lot of trouble understanding “tones” and ‘moods” in both writing and speaking. I’m in a biology PhD programme, and my laboratory group made it a point to teach me to understand sarcasm before I graduate, so I was trying to help you out too! That’s how they explained it to me. That’s all.
Hey, I had to read the whole thing through to get “all green” on my sarcasm monitor. Be not ashamed in your own brain’s failings. Strive to move past them and seek assistance when possible.
I just hope that doesn’t require taking a break from Dumbing of Age. Logically, I know that it would probably be good for me. But every other part, and even some of that part screams “NOT GONNA HAPPEN”, only the font is like 300 times larger, the text is in bold and rainbow, and… oh yeah, there’s a big comfy spot on top.
Take a break from the comic, or from reading the comments? Because you don’t have to read the comments to read the comic.
Yes. I <3 this too much. 🙁
Did–uh, did I miss a pop culture thing? Suddenly everyone’s saying “bongo” a lot and while I understand it in context, I have NO idea where it originated.
I tried looking it up on Urban Dictionary and now I’m just depressed.
It came from Willis and his new text modifier. Try writing the b-word and you get BONGOS!!!!
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 <—– these are for Bongos. not the b-word
Nonsense, he’s just trying to drum up support for his favorite charity for shut-ins … Bongos Only, Never Goes Out Side
Ack! I am so sorry to hear that, Crazy Dina!
I really did mean that as completely, utterly, and bitingly sarcastic, and I am really, really sorry it didn’t come across that way for you.
Especially since some of what you’re saying sounds really familiar. I’ve had some really bad issues in my past with self-esteem and still wrestle every now and then with some pretty intense self-loathing. So, know that I’m rooting for you!
Not your fault white people have a long history of being jerks. I honestly think I could get over it and be okay with everything if we would JUST STOP DOING IT!!!!!
It’s one thing if a group of people made a mistake. It’s one thing if you did something horrible and learned never to repeat that experience. But it’s another thing to be in the present and do the exact things that got us into deep trouble physically, socially, economically, or morally. It’s like, do we never learn?
#NotAllWhites #Doesn’tMatter #STOPIT #STAHP #WHY?!?!?! #AaaaaandWeDoItAgain #ReadThe$@$!HistoryBook #Remember #NotAgain #RedScare #Slavery #EndOfLazziFaire #ReturnToLazziFaire #EpicFail
Before Rozs words Joyces anger was directed towards the church yet she herself is a member of that church and by participating in that church she agrees with what the church is doing
Shes slut shamed Roz in the past while showing double standards towards Joe and thought Roz was a witch
She completely disregards evolution while waiting for a flu shot shot and has no issues with committing physical violence on someone if they have a different viewpoint to her own
Yes shes improving but she hasn’t yet owned up to her own short-comings and is still looking for loop-holes so hopefully Rozs words have forced her to do some introspection which, in the long run, will help her become a better person
Painful as it maybe we all sometimes need to hear the truth whether we like it or not
By the way, don’t take this the wrong way, but identifying as a member of a group meaning you support their policies is the most insane thing I have ever heard and I work with people who believe the pyramids were built by aliens.
I’m a United States citizen and am a vocally critical opponent of many of its policies. Joyce can identify with the good and work to change the bad. What universe requires you to believe that a group you belong to has to represent your values? Reform would be impossible if not for people working to change them from the inside.
At no point did Joyce ever question her church, at no point did she ever think anything other than church = good, if she’d heard about her church performing “rehabilitation” she’d probably be all for it and if anyone asked her about her church she’d just say how wonderful it is
Who joins a group or stays in a group or organization (I’m not talking countries here) without agreeing with most of what it does? Seriously there are plenty of churches out there she could look at, shes had conversations with other people about the churches they belong but she likes the one shes comfortable with, the one shes used to, the one she agrees with
I’ll be interested to see if she does try to change her church, their policies or even try to start the conversation though
I’m confused where you’re getting all this because she’s done all of that. As for joining organizations without agreeing with most of what they said? Most of the world? Especially in churches. A church is not a political party, it’s a community of your friends, family, and town. It’s a community. You are a part of it and have to work to change it unless you want to move away and maybe you might think they deserve to be educated or reformed.
Instead of immediately discarding the part of her upbringing where “queer = bad,” after meeting absolutely no bad queer people and a few bad hetero people, she first consulted the bible for permission. And then she told Becky this– with the underlying implication that “if the bible told me to hate you, I might actually hate you.”
No, she didn’t. She made the decision to accept Becky as she is, conditional on nothing, because she loves Becky. Then she went to the Bible and the Internet looking not for permission, but for a retroactive justification for her decision that would allow her to reconcile her decision with her faith. She even tells Sarah that’s what she’s doing: not consulting the Bible as to what the right decision is, but trying to finagle a way to make the decision she’s already made Biblically okay.
And right in that link you posted, when Becky asks if Joyce would have changed her mind again if she hadn’t been able to find that wiggle room, Joyce says “no”.
Joyce picked a church because it had rock music. She didn’t even ask about the doctrine. Anyone else remember that comic?
Joyce went to the church that Mary picked because it had rock music…
You’re talking about someone who up until she got to college was raised in an environment where she couldn’t conceive of an atheist being a nice, normal person.
She didn’t “join” the church! She was born into it. How could she possibly be at fault for that?
Things like country’s and churches are a grey area for this, because you get shoved into them mostly while still a child, and without free control over the choice to engage or not.
STAYING in those constructs as an adult however, is a different fish.
If you say, for example, pulling a group out of a hat…
That you’re a *redacted*, you ARE making the statement that you are part and parcel for that group, and follow it’s doctrines and conform to their ideals. Otherwise, you shouldn’t say you’re a *BLEEP* as saying you’re a *Foghorn* paints you with the best and worst of their colors.
If you’re not able to handle that, then you shouldn’t wear the coat, and find one that fits you better.
***Name of Institution has been stricken from the records by Derailment Protocol 34b7, Class 8 clearance is needed to view.***
I love bacon, and link sausage. I enjoy a good steak. I find typically strawberry colored foods tasty. (Yes, colored, read on.)
I have been present for the castration of pigs and didn’t enjoy the experience. I am squeamish about “cleaning”, (gutting,) a dear.
I know that sausage casings are made from the intestines of the animal.
I know the color used to make that “strawberry” color is typically made from the carapaces, (outer shells,) of a certain insect.
The human mind is capable of wonderful degrees of disconnect.
Most people do not carry their established beliefs to their fridge logic conclusion.
It is a wonderful selective blindness that lets us live with ourselves.
If I were denied this selective blindness, I could never enjoy another slice of bacon.
Personally, I choose to hide the truth of its manufacture from myself, and continue to enjoy bacon.
+1
As a human being I don’t have much choice but look on my fellow humans in dismay.
As children we’re indoctrinated into Queen, country, church, but as adults we have choices. You can choose to remain faithful to such bodies, you can choose to question it’s actions. Or not. A church is just a body of people, you can remain within it, you can join it, or you can remain outside.
If you remain or join just because, then you’re a non-thinking sheep and I can only work with you at a superficial level.
Joyce and Roz are at two different stages of development. Roz is all young adult arrogance and smarts. She’s had stuff revealed to her, and she thinks she knows everything. She’s forthright and honest. I admire that.
Joyce is setting down that route. I hope the answers to her questions bring her happiness. I suspect not.
I could probably argue back and forth about this, but I think I said all my arguments (and probably repeated plenty of them) on the last page and at this point I’m content to leave that particular issue on that page as well.
So in belonging to an organization – even one as vaguely defined as “the church” – we take on all responsibility for everything that organization does? Where do I go to disavow all national affiliation, then? Because I’m pretty sure there’s no country on earth that doesn’t do something that makes me shake my head in disapproval.
The difference is I’m assuming a church has rules you have to follow and I’m guessing Joyce is well aware of these rules so while she hasn’t done anything horrible like Roz said she does condone the action of her church by belonging to it unless of course she has disagreed with its policies in the past and has tried to change them
I have a lot of Christian friends who had no idea the church they belong to supports charities that don’t help lgbt youth…
A lack of due diligence doesn’t absolve someone from the consequences of their affiliations.
Man, I am Killing this word a day calendar.
Man, you have any idea how rare it is to find fully grown adults who are willing to dig into who they are and why they happen to be that way? And you expect 18 year olds who’re just heading off on their own to have done all of that self-reflection already?
Expecting someone who’s reaching the cusp of adulthood to have already questioned the truths of their childhood is ridiculous.
Why would you murder an inanimate object?
>Expecting someone who’s reaching the cusp of adulthood to have already questioned the truths of their childhood is ridiculous.
So you ask that person to do so now, and suddenly you receive so many gender-charged insults that a swear filter needed to be instated
At least it’s a funny filter! Most sites just hash it out.
In general, churches rarely have rules but they often have cultural patterns which tend to reinforce behavior. I imagine Joyce was taught her entire life about God’s love, compassion, charity, and forgiveness but if it was ever mentioned then homosexuality was a sin like premarital sex but it would be a microscopic part of her education. THAT is why it’s insidious and difficult to get rid of because she has to question how a group which is 99% good has 1% which is really really awful. It’s something I had to deal with and it’s hard. I’m glad Joyce is going down my path, though.
Like I said above, Joyce grew up thinking that people who questioned the rules too much were putting themselves on a path to Hell. She’s just barely realized that alternatives exist. Maybe she’d have started doing that questioning sooner if she had a pressing reason to do that kind of critical thinking like Becky does, but she didn’t choose to be born into a family where fundamentalist Christianity permeated every aspect of her waking existence until she went off to college.
Agreed.
In cases like the church or political parties, where joining is voluntary, yes. Specifically if you’re an adult, fully cognizant. If you’re adult and you remain actively with a church, I assume you’ve thought through what your support for that organisation means and you’re prepared to defend it’s actions.
You support that organisation by, usually, giving it money. Or your mere presence in church, giving it numbers. Or even becoming a vocal member of internet forums extolling and defending the church.
An exception would be someone who belongs to a church, and they don’t agree with it’s actions, and they try and change it. I respect them; they’re exceptional people. However, their legacy is usually warped and twisted beyond all recognition. See Francis of Assissi for example.
Joyce is at the stage where she’s starting to question her indoctrination. Becky, Roz and Dorothy have brought her face to face with some of the ramifications of her beliefs and the beliefs of her family.
Roz is absolutely correct in what she says. Of that there can be no doubt.
Excuse me, I think there can be a lot of doubt, considering the number of comments.
What Roz said was effectively ‘How DARE you take in new information and alter your worldview as a result? How DARE you act like overturning a literal lifetime of conditioning is actually hard? If you had any moral sense at all you’d have just known it immediately out of the ether. You have no right to be anything more than evil Miss Fundy, because you actually needed experience to learn.’
There’s very little right about that statement, whether or not the Roz’s stance on lgbt issues is a good one in itself. (Which of course it is.)
Roz is incredibly self-centered. Because she knows something in her soul, she thinks anyone who has to come to it any harder or slower way doesn’t deserve to share that something.
“Yes, Joyce, you should feel bad for learning to be a better person, and rethinking your previous position!”
Roz’s words have convinced me she doesn’t know the meaning of basic human decency. She’s the Liberal Mary.
Joyce is 10 times the person Roz is, if anything she should learn from her.
Joyce and Roz are very similar to each other, they both believe they’re right and have all the answers, they’re both quick to shoot down anyone who disagrees with them and they’re both quick to help people when they think they need help
I haven’t seen any sign Roz has helped anyone other than faux activism. Joyce, by contrast, doesn’t believe she has any answers other than what she was taught and actively seeks new knowledge as well as modifies her viewpoints.
Even after Joyce attempted to shame Roz as soon as Roz found out that something may have happened to Joyce she went to her and offered advice:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/03-the-first-step-towards-recovery/card-2/
I’d agree that Roz, like pretty much every recurring character in this, has more then 2 dimensions even if we don’t always see them. That said, I still think she’s an asshole and don’t particularly find her a likable character. She’s more then faux into activism but she’s got her own crystallized viewpoints and the arrogance that comes with that.
That we really don’t see Roz much is the real problem here. We do, in fact, know that Joyce is changing, because we can see it unfold. Roz, on the other hand, has yet to have a scene showing her dealing with a challenge to her beliefs. Thus far, without new evidence, she’s the same person in the latest strips as she was in her first appearance; I think we could certainly do with seeing her line of thought more, and this might well be how we get into that.
getoutta here.
Joyce is the main character … of course we’d see more development.
Roz is better friend to Joyce than Dorothy.
It’s like they say, no pain, no gain. It’s how you know the best friends are the ones that emotionally abuse you. 9_9
Needs a sarcasm tag?
The eye roll doesn’t work? Yeah, stick a /s on that sucker.
Where does the idea that Roz’s activism is “faux” come from? Does anyone have any links? Because this is all over the comments from yesterday and today and I don’t remember anything like that.
Joyce is capable of compassion, and of not looking down on others, even she if she doesn’t like or disagrees with the person. She’s also able to actually look at and challenge her world views, not particularly well mind you, but Roz doesn’t give a crap. I would also disagree with that last statement, Roz is never quick to help, she gave Joyce that therapist card that one time but that’s pretty much it, every other things she’s down in the entire comic was done to further her own goals.
Yep.
What are you basing that “Roz is never quick to help” on? In the one time we’ve seen Roz be in a position to help, she does (or at least tries to). That being said, does she jump to conclusions in the past few strips? Yeah, absolutely. But that doesn’t automatically make her a bad person, just somewhat judgmental.
(Also Joyce is certainly capable of not looking down on others, but, y’know, she totally does)(Don’t get me wrong, Roz does too. But Joyce is not inherently better than Roz)
That’s the thing, she’s only been in a position to help one time during the entire comic, and she didn’t do anything extraordinary, she did what I would expect anyone to do in that situation, it’s the absolute minimum of basic human decency.
Roz is such a self serving character, you’ll note that in Joyce’s example, Joyce is genuinely concerned about Joe and Roz’s souls, she even states that she’s just worried about them in the next strip, and even then I point out that Joyce goes out of her way to grow and improve as a person and has since learned that looking down on people is not okay as shown here (http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/02-i-was-a-teenage-churchmouse/crankier/)
In Roz’s example Roz only cared about announcing how enlightened she was and bragging about how that made her better than everyone else in the class. The last time anyone had a valid counter point to her arguments she openly whined about how annoying it is when other people have valid points, she’s more interested in riding her high horse than she is in anything else.
That’s the distinction in my mind, even at her worst Joyce is always caring and compassionate, while Roz at her best is merely tolerable.
Okay I’m seeing where we differ. I love Joyce, but I don’t think Joyce is always caring and compassionate. Do I think that is usual/most natural for her? Yes. But her date with Joe shows her at her worst: cluelessly ignoring the pain of his divorce (though Joe also plays it off so not entirely on her) and encouraging physical punishment for their sins. The next comic has a quote from Joyce: “Our fists were instruments of the lord!” It implies Joyce directly participated in punching him, but that’s arguable. What isn’t arguable was that she condones and actively encourages it.
And as for that link, it’s clear to me that Joyce is still judging Billie in that link. “I’m not judging her, I’ve accepted that she’s gonna die early” is absolutely judging. (unless you’re pointing out that she knows looking down on people is not okay even though she still does)
Now Roz? Yes I agree she needs to come down a peg or two, but I find her pretty funny and interesting in other ways. She’s driven and intelligent, but that tends her towards thinking she knows best when she doesn’t necessarily. Do I agree with everything she does? No, but I enjoy when she’s around.
To be honest, if I knew both of them, I would probably end up befriending them both. (In fact I did more or less do that, as at college I accidentally befriended half the Christian Youth Group and hung out with the queer activists over the course of my freshman year). Joyce is compassionate and caring and Roz is passionate and driven, I would love to hang out with either!
Yeah that date was her lowest moment, no argument there, but still…
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/nice/
Don’t get me wrong, that doesn’t excuse her actions during the actual date, not even slightly, she was horrible. But when it was all said and down she still felt the need to make that gesture, and I admire that about her. Plus I really doubt the person Joyce is NOW will ever do something this bad again.
In retrospect what I meant with that link would be much better explained with this strip:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/neighbor-2/
Joyce knows what they’re doing is wrong (according to her beliefs anyways) but she still accepts and loves them. With Roz it’s my way or the high way.
Roz is driven, intelligent, and passionate, and those are definitely things to admire and something she should be proud of, but I don’t think I could stand having someone so self righteous in my life.
Awww Joyce :'(
Yeah I read that comic when I was trawling for links. It definitely had me add the sentence about Joyce being caring and compassionate more often than not.
And yeah, that strip is much better. I hadn’t really thought about that when it came to judging, but it is showing that she’s learning to make her own judgements. This, combined with her compassionate heart, is why she’s growing and changing as a character. She cares about people.
Huh, wrote paragraph praising Joyce when my original focus was Roz. Oops!
As for Roz, she’s kinda shot in the foot by not being a main character or a common reoccurring character. And in narrative, she’s stubborn and convinced she’s correct. Whichever route you take, one means little character development is possible without more screentime and the other means that development takes a long time (which i know firsthand as a stubborn person myself)
I think Roz needs to be challenged by someone she respects to change her approach. Being challenged by someone she can easily write off like Joyce won’t register, because she’ll assume she knows better. I was hoping the Leslie talk would be that moment (who knows, maybe it will be. sometimes lessons take a while to sink in.) but as of now, she’s angry she was wrong.
Haha after writing this, I guess our interpretations of the characters aren’t much different, but our personal background gives us very different reactions to the characters. But that’s why I enjoy the comments!
And even that therapist card was probably just to make herself feel like less of a person who condones rape, given that she’d just finished being all ‘Woo! Wasn’t that a great party? I mean except for some stupid little scene, who cares’ and some joyful smugging about Joyce being terrified and/or ‘taught lessons’ by the real world. Well, Joyce was terrified and got ‘taught a lesson’, and Roz made herself feel better with a piece of tagboard.
Jesus Christ, where are you people getting these ideas? “Less of a person who condones rape”?? The fuck?! Where is it ever remotely intimated that she condones rape. Where. Where.
See at this point you’ve gone so far into your made-up dreamland that it’s clear there’s nothing I can do. You’ve decided Roz is the ultimate evil and there’s no way anyone can change your mind.
Just …..Wha?
In the Roz-based aftermath of that party, it was clear that Roz had NO IDEA what happened to Joyce or what the origin of the fight was. And yet Dorothy lit into her before Joyce asked her to stop because just talking about it was upsetting to her. So then Roz comes to her after class, apologizes (despite still not knowing what’s up), encourages Joyce to seek self help and provides contact information (presumably for a counseling center or help-line), shows a complete respect for Joyce’s desire not to talk about the bad thing, and for her trouble gets put down by Joyce. Annnnnnd all that gets interpreted as being malicious and bongo-ier than a rumba band?
I don’t get it.
Um… Why. Would. She. Have. Those. Cards. On. Hand?
Seriously. Having that card actually speaks a LOT about Roz, and goes to the heart of her issue with Joyce.
She was giving out free condoms in earlier strips promoting safe sex whilst wearing a silly hat.
You heard the man, ROZ GO CALL PEOPLE HARLOTS AND HAVE THEM PHYSICALLY BEATEN UP! It’s the Joyce way!
Or, since Roz jumped on her immediately after her outburst and before Joyce had much time to think beyond it, that this came about as part of her natural thought processes. You know, like standing up to her parents over Dororthy, or placing her friendship with Becky over words on a page.
She spent an entire evening loop-holing Becky. And not event the FUN kind of loop holing where one of them wears a cowgirl hat.
Joyce *is* growing, but thinking she’s not going to need Roz-level pushes to get out of her shell is… really wishful thinking.
This isn’t pushing, it’s attacking. She doesn’t need to be attacked to grow as a person, especially since this came right after she had a huge self revelation.
It’s not much of a “self” revelation when Joyce did not include herself in it though
There are over six billion people on the world. Expecting all of them to react to new information that makes them question their own beliefs in the same way and just as quickly makes about as much sense as believing in scientific creationism. Some people are able to do it very quickly, some people take months or weeks. Telling them to hurry up isn’t helping.
You’re literally prioritizing abused and homeless lgbt youth as less important than their oppressors needing to realize they’re ruining lives.
I am curious. Which person in need of help has turned to Joyce, asking for aid, and has then been turned away because they did not comply with her religious beliefs? In fact, which person has even been denied friendship or companionship by Joyce by virtue of religious beliefs?
How can it be a self revelation when the revelation in question has no bearing on her personal behaviour?
She doesn’t turn away anyone! That enables her to convert them! http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/roommate/
Sorry, I meant ‘guide’! http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/work/
It is demonstrably not the case that Joyce needs what Roz is doing to change. Joyce changed her mind last night, because Becky came out to her. Roz had nothing whatsoever to do with it. All Roz is doing is attacking someone who’s already changed her mind for not having done it earlier. And that’s really not a good way to convince people that they should change their minds…
The thing is, they were words that didn’t need to be said.
And now Roz is going to think that she actually accomplished something, when in fact she was just being a sanctimonious idiot.
gaarrr roz i have a unjustified really non-christian hate for you blaargh
…Your comment sure hit something.
Classic Joe! Always there for his “friends!”
Oh, yikes. Leslie seriously lost her class this time. And then there’s Joe.
Good on Joe for attempting to lighten the mood…at least thats what I assume hes doing
Personally? I think Mike’s better.
I’m fairly certain that there are 20+ students left for her to teach.
They’re nothing but nameless redshirts.
And Joe has a loaded gun!
I can’t believe I just said that.
So they are going to die horribly then?
Only if they don’t wear protection.
Death by snu-snu!
I dunno, are all the other kids wearing pumped up kicks?
In my heart they are already dead.
Not till the first away miss-er, field trip.
well, she lost all the named characters. They’re the only ones that count, right?
She still has Roz
*woo*
Your favourite. 😛
And you! Assuming you didn’t scoot all the way out of the room last strip.
I admit it’s kinda weird not knowing what I did
is that what hangovers are like
Not really … that would be a black out … my understanding is that if you’ve had a black out you are likely to get a hangover, but lots of people get hungover without blacking out …
Both are states indicating you’ve had way too much to drink … but, the hangover is primarily caused by compounds other than the alcohol, while the blackout is because you’ve been a dumb ass and had way way too much alcohol, too fast … if you do this using something relatively pure like say vodka you can have a blackout, wake up covered in your own vomit and not get more than a mild headache (this last part is from a personal experience …) …
Needless to say if you’re experiencing this you have being really stupid and probably have a serious problem …
Not only blackouts, but general forgetfulness. If only you could reach into the archives of past thoughts and remember exactly what you were thinking or saying before you lost your train of thoughts the way you can with internet comments.
Not the reaction I was expecting.
…Did not expect her to leave this soon.
Go Joyce! Go!
She’s afraid and hurt. I’m surprised she didn’t bolt without saying anything to Leslie at all.
I kind of hope Leslie takes this opportunity as a teachable moment for the rest of the class (Roz) and explains that you NEVER know what’s going on in someone’s life by their outward appearance, and that being a bongo to them doesn’t make them open up or apologize any faster.
What did Roz want Joyce to do? Fall down on the floor bawling and beg forgiveness for having been born into a fundie family and allowing her mind that had been molded since birth along those lines to follow normal psychology and protect herself by conforming to her parents’ expectations? To immediately jump on a nearby girl and have a public make-out session in the classroom and declare that a video of it will be up on YouTube at the end of class?
I was late commenting on yesterday’s strip because of life, but Roz can just fuck the hell off. She thinks she doesn’t need this class, but it’s obvious now that she’s pretty much the only one there who DOES.
Nnnnnnno, there’s that other person in the classroom who only just realized that lgbt people are made homless, abused, and forced to convert in the name of god. I think she could stand to learn, well, a lot from this class. A L O T.
Honestly, while I think Joyce is “leaving” I do think she’s still “going” somewhere.
If the distinction is understandable.
yeah, one results in a hurt, self loathing Joyce, the other results in a hurt, possibly apologetic, determined Joyce.
this amuses me more than it probably should
Damn, I was looking forward to Leslie’s scolding
I imagine Roz is gonna get a strict talking-to after class.
Agreed. I hope we see it.
I, too, hope that we get to see Leslie tear Roz a new one.
See I don’t want Roz to be torn a new one, I want more of a strict talking-to. She needs to understand that while what she said may be true, it was not the right time, place, or tone.
(well tone is arguable)
No let him go, I get the feeling he’s failing anyway.
I concur, Leslie. Joe was acting like a Boingo.
Obligatory Mass Effect reference.
Who is this peon? Where’s Commander Shepard?
Oh, right. This is that ManShep I keep hearing about. Meh. He’s okay, I guess.
Manshep is not canon. Ever.
All kidding aside, Jennifer Hale just brought the character to life so much more than Mark did. Actually that isn’t even a fair comparison. Hale did an excellent job, some of the best voice work in a science fiction storyline I’ve heard, never missing a beat, dramatic and funny and everything I wanted in my main MC. Mark Meer…wasn’t exactly bad…but his delivery was so wooden he might as well have been playing a talking tree. I think he was trying to emulate Babylon 5 a little too much.
Agreed. I played the first ME with Manshep, and it was… serviceable, and not the worst. Then I rebooted with a Femshep in ME2 and HOLY MOLY it was some good acting.
In other words, This is Commander Shepherd, and this is my favorite comment on the citadel.
Manshep for renegade, Femshep for paragon.
Hale doesn’t come off as angry enough for renegade (barring “For thane.”) and Meer’s best with his voice at the ends of the Grumble/yelling spectrum.
The strongest impression I got from dudeShep’s Renegade performance was if you use the Renegade option on Conrad Verner on his third conversation in ME1. It sounded exaggerated and faked to me (which may be intentional considering the context). Did it again as ladyShep and it sounded cold and ruthless and “you really don’t think I’d pull the damn trigger right now?” as a Renegade should!
(And then it turns out ME2’s save import system had a bug where it treats that incident as if you went Renegade on him even if you had actually gone Paragon so I felt a kind of stupid validation for wanting to do that.)
HE WAS UNDER A LOT OF STRESS OKAY?!
Well of course he was. I pointed a gun at him.
TWICE! 8D
I always found FemShep’s performance underwhelming, especially given how much people rave about it. I usually get bored before the end of the game and restart.
Hype, whether from trailers, forums or praise from friends, is a festering tumour of necrotic deprecation to one’s own expectations.
Akh. Stupid no edit ruin my point. Deterioration. Deterioration, not deprecation.
The story is that Meer was originally hired to do placeholder dialogue for DudeShep that other voice actors were going to play off of, and BioWare decided to keep him in the role. He also did the voices for the volus (voluses? voli?) and the vorcha.
The “Blasto: Hanar Spectre” voice clips in ME3 have Mark Meer voice Blasto and Jennifer Hale voice his partner’s sister.
Shepard’s voice is hitting on Shepard’s other voice. It’s extra hilarious once you know this fact.
I love Mass Effect!
Not just hitting on, Blasto and Honey totally bang. Shepard has totally creepy monotone alien sex with Shepard.
Not a bad compilation, but I’m disappointed we didn’t get the bit from the ME3 Citadel DLC in which he mulls over the phrase.
Yeah, that’s really how that should have ended.
Joe you need to hear this so you won’t continue being an ass to Danny when he’s trying to come out to you.
Joe: Whats-her-face is her middle name. That’s how much I care.
I thought Joyce’s middle name was Nicole!
“You are not welcome here, Joyce. Go back to your fundie friends, you will never fit in in the REAL world anyway.” Message received. Loud and clear.
What do you think Joyce is doing here? I think it’s all but stated that she’s going to find Becky to reconcile after their fight, now that this lecture has given her a new perspective.
I was hoping she was going to see Ethan to break up with him but thats also good
Why would she reconcile with Becky? She hasn’t done anything wrong other than open her house to her and reorientate her entire worldview to accomadate her. Personally, I imagine she intends to stew in her guilt and self-horror like Roz wants her to.
As much progress as Joyce has made, and as much as I generally support her, I think Becky had some cause for annoyance. While I don’t have a problem with Joyce “double-checking” and trying to find a way to fit gayness being OK into her belief system and Biblical interpretation (it’s not like I haven’t done the same in the past), Becky was understandably hurt by it. Also, Joyce tried to get her to keep herself in the closet to the general public.
“I found the passage in the book that got you disowned that I can still be your best friend! Let’s go oogle boys and keep your terrible sin-filled lusts secret so I don’t look like a heathen too!”
Alternatively, “I’ve got your back, I’m just trying to find ways to have your back that don’t make me feel like a horrible person while I’m doing it.”
The rest of that conversation, of course, went
“Why should you feel like a horrible person for having my back in the first place?”
“Turns out I don’t have to!”
“Then why did you need to find an excuse not to?”
Joyce’s faith in the bible is stronger than her faith in the person standing in front of her. This is exactly what the church taught Joyce to do, and it’s hurting Becky.
“Joyce’s faith in the bible is stronger than her faith in the person standing in front of her. This is exactly what the church taught Joyce to do, and it’s hurting Becky.”
So much this. And it’s a really hard thing to break. Empathy & loving people the way that they feel loved are not high up on most Christians’ priority lists. Especially fundamentalist Christians. Rather, they don’t understand that the love they’re showing is actually toxic.
Oh, absolutely. But Roz and Leslie or the rest of the class don’t know that. What they saw was someone who has trouble fitting in getting bullied out of the classroom.
I read this strip in an altogether different way. I think Joyce is going to go looking for Becky to apologize for earlier.
Not because of her own moral epiphany, but because someone shamed her into leaving.
Why would Joyce apologize? She’s struggling but I’m inclined to think Becky would be kind enough to know actions speak louder than words given the lengths Joyce is going for her, up to and potentially getting her kicked out of the college.
Remember the “Not so loud!” bit from earlier? Becky was real unimpressed with that.
She may be going to apologize for embodying what Roz accused her of.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/research/
Joyce has simultaneously been very excellent to Becky and in more subtle ways not very accepting of her. As much as the one might overshadow the other, I’m sure she wants to be better.
That’s assuming Joyce realizes that she can be kicked out of college for shielding Becky like she’s doing.
She hasn’t, to my knowledge, actively sought out a permanent solution to the Becky situation. She’s currently living in a cocoon of denial, hoping she can shield her friend from … consequences. But the dogs are closing, she’d better act quickly.
Things will not end well if she doesn’t.
The irony is, there are people around her who could help her. She has made connections who could make a difference but, like her situation with Ethan, she needs a third party to force her to see the truth of her situation. I think she’ll be quite happy to remain within that bubble; the reckoning will be worse if she doesn’t take her own steps for a plan of action.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/endgame/
Sarah tried to tell her about that just this morning. Joyce would have none of it.
Or, perhaps, she would have asked to leave ANYWAY, because Leslie’s statements about the danger LGBT+ youth face shook her and made her worry about Becky wandering campus alone, but then Roz had to jump in and get herself kicked out of class.
Joyce consistently doesn’t like loud confrontations – she had a similar reaction when Sarah and her neighbors started fighting over what to do about the rapist who attacked her. She shuts down fights by removing herself from them and taking the emotional heat on herself. It would only make sense to her to solve both problems by asking that Roz be allowed to stay in class and “volunteering” to leave, since she was going to leave anyway.
That’s a good point.
You. I like you.
:D! <3
That emoticon with that gravatar… <3
Oh, and the stuff you're saying is pretty cool and insightful too.
Joyce is learning about the consequences of her actions and she’ll be all the better for it
You don’t learn about the consequences of your actions by some ally (which is what she is until proven otherwise) yelling at you for changing your worldview.
So like when someone calls you a stripped to the roots witch that’s going to hell?
Oh wait that was Joyce.
Different situation, though still just as wrong. What’s your point?
The point that a lot of us are trying to make is that Roz’s outburst did not occur in a vacuum with no history. Instead, it was part of an ongoing series of confrontations in which Joyce has perpetually berated and derided Roz’s very existence, even when Roz was trying to sincerely be helpful. We’d like just a bit of acknowledgement that up until today, Joyce has been the one bullying Roz, albeit cluelessly–which may, in turn, explain why Roz has less patience with Joyce’s cluelessness in other arenas.
No, as inappropriate as Roz was in throwing her tantrum, I suspect that’s exactly what Joyce did. She has a strong moral compass, she’s not going to be give in over things that weren’t wrong.
I really expect that we’ll see that to the extent shame is what chased her from the class, it will only be in having realized there are things she needs to put right.
Tell that to tumblr….
You mean she should turn Becky out? Because all Joyce has done has been to help Becky and show ill-advised emotional support. I never thought I’d hate a DoA character as much as Ruth but given she’s turned out to be a very troubled woman, Roz has shot to the list of horrible people in this comic.
Like slut-shaming someone, like blindly following an organization, like trying to change someones sexuality
I believe you should look up the word “blindly” given Joyce has dramatically changed her values given they are incompatible with what was taught by her church. Blindly would imply she doesn’t see and doesn’t change. Roz can very comfortably sit on her high horse given she’s probably never changed a viewpoint in her life.
I agree with you on two of those things, but “blindly following an organization”? Get the fuck out of here with that. She did not choose to follow her religion. She was born and raised in a protective cocoon of ignorance that her parents put up around her until she came to this college. She was never taught any other way of thinking because she was home-schooled. Joyce was brainwashed from day one, so how dare you accuse her of willful ignorance.
Like when she blindly followed her parents’ demand to distance herself from the evil atheist heathens? Or when she turned away Becky and called her dad like her local priest would have instructed her. Honestly, in the 4-5 weeks Joyce has attended college, she’s changed her mind on so many things, so quickly that I’m not always sure I can take it seriously. It astounds me that anyone can say she’s making progress too slowly because if she went any faster, she’d outrun Sonic the Hedgehog.
Judging by Sonic Boom, that shouldn’t be too difficult.
Is it bad that this comment solidifies my abhorrence for any Sonic related material post Sonic Adventure 2: Battle on the Gamecube?
No. Everyone hated Sonic Boom.
I think part of the problem is that it feels as if those four weeks have lasted for years…
I see your preconceived distortion machine is on high gain.
Way to read into a situation what isn’t there.
Nononononono, TOWARD the woman who has actually had experience with being LGBT and homeless, not AWAY!
Unless she’s not going to Becky? Maybe she has to go break up with Ethan.
That’s an interesting alternative, and honestly I’m actually a little more interested in that conversation than the Becky one (it just seems a little more complex to me, though both are sure to be fantastic moments in terms of writing and Joyce’s development), but I think Becky is just way higher on Joyce’s radar now.
Though, tangentially, I now have the amusing mental image of Joyce deciding she desperately needs to both reconcile with Becky and break up with Ethan, and deciding to do both by running by Ethan and yelling “I AM BREAKING UP WITH YOU, BYE” on her way to Becky.
Joyce DOES do thinks not-by-half, doesn’t she?
Frankly, the way her life is going not-at-all-according-to-plan I think the relationship with Ethan starts to be more of a burden for her than something of value, even including the sense of security he gives her (I mean short-term. Long term it’s obviously a horrible idea for both of them). I think she would benefit as much as him from a quick, clean breakup as soon as possible.
But what if she comes back with Becky?
That could work, especially if she’s all like “BECKY! YOU HAVE TO COME WITH ME! I KNOW SOMEONE WHO CAN HELP” and Becky’s all like “NO WAY!” and then Joyce is like “She’s a LEZ! LIKE YOU!”
Only if Becky gets dragged into class and laughs her ass off at leslie’s name.
I’m having a moment where I see Joyce running up and shouting, “Becky! I have to introduce you to Prof. Leslie Bean!” and Becky just rolls her eyes and goes, “Yeah, right.”
I may have actually wailed ‘noooooo’, all quiet-like and under my breath.
But that would be smart and this isn’t smarting of age.
Oh, I think there is all kinds of smarting going on …
Nononononono, TOWARD the woman who has actually had experience with being LGBT and homeless, not AWAY!
THIS. So much this. Leslie is the most valuable resource Becky has right now; Joyce has to get the two of them together so Becky can figure out where to go next.
^^^
I hope she gives Roz the biggest verbal smackdown next strip.
“I banged your sister”
“IN ANOTHER UNIVERSE”
Wouldn’t work. This is Roz we’re talking about.
Roz would probably be overjoyed, as that might result in at least swinging Robin to a more left-wing agenda.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/02-i-was-a-teenage-churchmouse/gag/
“I banged your sister” is exactly what Roz wants.
“I made your sister a mother of three. In another universe!”
I was hoping to see Leslie chewing Roz out, too. Oh well. Maybe it will happen next strip.
I think Leslie is more interested in chewing Roz’s sister out, if you know what I mean.
Oh, I know what you mean, but that wouldn’t be productive right now. Fun, but not productive.
Side note: I REALLY hope you don’t chew on anything during cunnilingus.
Unless your partner is into that, anyway.
Off-frame: Roz’s smug, punchable face.
what if i just punched your face instead?
sorry ninja_jesus, that was uncalled for and ive got nothing against you. I’m just very angry with all the hate towards roz here. Roz has a solid point, even if she’s making it in a mean way. This kind of downpour of hate towards her from the same board that glorifies mike for being an asshole for shits and giggles is pissing me off.
You have to understand: Mike can do no wrong. Mike is Mike. you can’t hold up the things Mike does against the other characters.
Trying to do so upsets the natural order and its something something banned something something your mom got laid.
Honestly, I empathize with Joyce a lot more here because I knew someone like Joyce, and I’ve been Roz to that person. I almost immediately regretted it because it had the immediately opposite effect of what I desired. To me, Roz is making the mistake that I’ve made a while ago, and if I could go back and punch myself, I would. Being cruel to a sensitive person doesn’t achieve good results, regardless of whether or not you’re right or wrong.
Mike is an established asshole in every situation. He’s more like a force of nature then a 3d character. Is mike talking? Then he’s being an asshole. “Mike is an asshole” was the whole of his character description in one universe at one point. Thus expectations are low.
Most of the other characters, Roz included, are more complex and thus one can judge them more harshly. Though actually, I think that if Mike was swapped in to do this entire scene, people would come down harder on Mike then they normally do as well. And though we don’t see his facial expressions change much, Mike also probably has a very punchable smug-face. Like Roz! (Smug faces are often the most punchable of faces)
‘How DARE you grow as a person you evil fundy brat, and how DARE it take you longer than five seconds’ is not a solid point. And that was the only point Roz was making.
To please this crowd, you need to be hilarious when you’re being an asshole.
Actually, that’s true for people in general.
Oh, my.
Such lovely, Christian sentiments.
What happened to all that forgiveness?
Not on the internet.
Oh wow. Did NOT see this coming…probably should’ve considering we’ve got a lot to build up to. Here’s to more growth and development for Joyce…like true self acceptance kind of growth…not the half assed BS she’s been able to get away with until now.
If Roz opens that claptrap of hers to add anything more to what just happened I swear to God….*too furious to actually think of what to do to horribly mane and mangle her fragile & pretentious psyche*
I wouldn’t call saying “no” to the parents you have honored and submitted to your entire life half-assed BS. That took some real gumption, more than many of us would have had in her shoes.
Damn Joe. Know you dont care for Joyce but youll think you remember that woman who punched you several times in the face.
Blunt force head trauma.
Jeez Joe, how do you forget the name of the girl who punched your face on the first week of college?
Damn, Hoboturtle beat me to the the punch (no pun intended).
Teacher Leslie is awesome-ly stern when she needs to be.
Of note: Joyce’s eyes aren’t visible. She’s likely crying as she’s heading out the door.
I agree. Joyce is either already sobbing or about to start.
I love Rox, I really do, but after the last strip; I just want to slap the taste out her mouth! Rox needs to sit her ass down, since she obviously ignoring ho destructive the lifestyle she is living can be.
The important thing to remember is Roz is righteous and everyone else can go suck a lemon. After all, she knows everything and doesn’t have to change her worldview to accommodate others.
Out of curiosity, does anyone else see how TOXIC this view is? Or are we just assuming since she follows views we all agree with, that doesn’t mean she has to change?
I’m not entirely sure what you mean, but you’re making me a bit uneasy. I don’t like Roz, but I don’t think her stubborn personality reflects badly on her beliefs, and I don’t think she’s been shown any reason to change her them–only her attitude towards others. As much as I hate the vindictive way she’s acting, I can sympathize with how becoming involved with social justice issues can make one bitter towards the largely uncaring world.
I work in academia and I guess I’m identifying Roz with a lot of people who are basically, “one issue voters.” As a big proponent of social justice, I try and instill in my students and fellow coworkers that you can’t just be involved in one issue but the whole spectrum of trying to rectify problems. Roz hits my irritation button because I’ve met a lot of people who don’t care a wit about anything beyond their specific issue. In Roz’s case, she seems to have basically just written off Joyce as the fundamentalist girl and misses that said beings often have their own serious issues and need of compassion.
Meh, your generosity is overwhelming.
Roz said something in the heat of the moment about a situation she’s obviously thought about.
In her own way, Roz even demonstrated a belief that Joyce IS changing for the better.
“Until today, [the church] was you.”
“Until today.”
And maybe she could have had a really interesting discussion about it with Joyce, during or after class, which could have cemented her as a resource or even role model for the issue in Joyce’s view.
But Roz would rather get a little ‘I’m so awesome’ personal high through verbal punching.
It absolutely should have waited for after class, if Roz had enough patience for it. Just as the day’s lessons have brought Joyce to a boiling point wherein she burst into her denouncement of the church’s actions towards queer people, Joyce’s outburst (and more importantly the lack of self-awareness within it) brought Roz to a boiling point where she felt compelled to speak up even through Leslie’s urgings to stop. Roz IS a hothead, and that’s one of her bigger flaws, but this did not just happen spontaneously, and not just for personal gratification.
Somebody who is wrong but is willing to learn is vastly preferable to somebody who is right but unwilling.
I do. I remember once hearing something along the lines of: “Some of the worst crimes in history were performed by people who believed that they were absolutely right”.
Yeah, it’s kind of effed that Joyce still thinks she’s absolutely right to physically assault someone (almost twice) for… getting over a bad date quickly?
That was just plain scary. Scarier than Mike.
So was the page right before it.
It’s not just you. Roz can believe or convince herself that this is all about taking a stand against social injustice or whatever, but not only are her methods scarcely validated as more than a phase 1st-world ‘have’ youngsters eventually outgrow, it seems to be more about attention-grabbing than anything that’ll aid making her mark in the world 4 to 10 years down the line, or do jack shit for improving anyone else’s life…Or even her’s, for that matter.
I think what irks me the most is that what she’s trying to do is end a lot of discrimination against people who are open about their sexuality and/or have different takes on sexuality, but she goes about this… by discriminating fundamentalist christians.
Yeah, I get those are the people she’s been against, but discriminating others so you can try and end discrimination… is kind of counter-productive.
“Discriminating”. That word doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means.
Roz isn’t attempting to deny Joyce’s right to get married, or to live where she wants, or to be employed where she is qualified to work. She’s not pushing for Joyce to be denied charitable services when needed, for that matter. In fact, on one of the two occasions we have of them speaking to one another prior to this, she actively sought to get Joyce in touch with helping services, out of concern for her (despite obviously disdaining her religious views).
Yes, she’s being mean in these strips. She’s being aggressive. But accusing her of seeking to ‘discriminate’ against Joyce is absurd, and just attempting to use a word that pushes people’s buttons.
(Is now having flashbacks to the great Aggie Is/Is Not A Bully Debate from the Penny & Aggie forums….)
Two fold for me. On the one hand, Roz is everything I hate when it comes to things like social justice. So for the most part I would be anti-Roz, to the point that I’d probably get in trouble.
HOWEVER.
Joyce’s hypocritical outburst flipped an entire row of rage switches in my head, to the point that, were some form of me in that classroom, I’d have probably said the same thing, but admittedly out of anger, and not out of a need to “teach” her anything.
“How dare the people I look up too try and convert the gays into the straights! that’s terrible!”
“Tambourine, you’re a beard with delusions of grandeur, shut the hell up.”
There might also be finger snapping in a Z shape.
Which threads are you reading? Because this massive lovefest for Roz that you seem to think is happening? It isn’t happening. Most of us on her side have taken the view, “This is something Joyce needed to hear, but the timing is unfortunate and Roz is likely being too aggressive.”
OTOH, Joyce’s defenders? Have called for Roz to get punched in the face, and have used a specific gendered slur so often that Our Host felt the need to install the bongo filter.
My predictions:
— Roz’s supporters here in the comments will see Joyce’s leaving as evidence that Roz’s words hit home, and therefore Roz is in the right.
— Joyce’s supporters will see her leaving as evidence that she’s being magnanimous toward Roz, and therefore Joyce is in the right.
…Yeah, I’d say Willis played this one exactly right.
I don’t think Joyce gives a hanky panky about Roz’s feelings at the moment. She just needs to be somewhere else. Probably where Becky is, but it doesn’t hurt that it gives her an excuse to leave the classroom.
Actually, I saw Joyce leaving as a sign of how deeply hurt she was, but that doesn’t necessarily make Roz right.
While those of us taking intermediate views will get shot at from both sides.
yaaaaaaaay
Fortune-Cookie Confucius say, “Man who stand in middle of road get run over.”
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you
… oh, wait I’m clearly actually both of those …
Neither Roz nor Joyce were in the right. I see Joyce leaving as evidence she’s hoping to fix her side of that. 🙂
I’m a Roz supporter, but she wasn’t in the right, what she said has merit; but the way she said was excusable really. She could’ve said what she said in a more “on the level” way, but all I saw was a self righteous bongo in the last panel, no better then those she was talking about.
Yay! It’s the comic that already agrees with your point of view – no matter what your point of view is!
Unless you’re Joe:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/continue/
It’s been three weeks since their date, Joe might have actually forgotten Joyces name, given how many other girls he meets.
But he’s hung out with her before. Remember him offering to pay her if she said the word “damn?”
Yes, Joe has made it clear that Joyce left a lasting impression on him. A fist-shaped impression.
Yes, it s hard to forget someone so … striking …
If she doesn’t break your heart, it’s because she was busy trying to break your nose
100+ comments already. Is there enough juice left in the discussion from yesterday to get us to 500?
I’m betting at least 750.
We just hit the 500 mark (501, with this comment I’m posting right here).
I just really love Leslie. That’s all I got today lol.
No, Joyce, your exit line is, “I have to go find the homeless lesbian teen who I’m sheltering, in defiance of parents, church, and possibly God.”
It would have been satisfying, but it would also have meant outing someone in a bad situation the minute after it hit home just how dangerous that could be. So, credit to Joyce for not using Becky as ammunition against Roz.
i dont think joyce could get becky more “out” if she did it from the top of the school with a megaphone.
…I’m not convinced Becky hasn’t already done that herself.
Outing her as a lesbian is not a concern. Outing her as a runaway whose father is looking for her is a HUGE concern.
Do we know how old Becky is? I’m not sure the runaway label applies.
Her current living arrangement is one the college would not abide. Legal age or not, outing that would get Becky (and Joyce) in a lot of trouble.
I’ve got a sinking feeling that won’t stop her dad from trying to haul her off anyways, given half the chance.
Which in the long run can benefit Becky, as it will become entirely clear what kind of infectious human waste her father really is to all involved.
Sometimes pain is inevitable.
I’m sorry, but I have a really hard time seeing what’s to gain from the pain that would be in store for her.
That’s because we’re afraid of pain. The truth is, though, some times we can’t stop it or avoid it, and when we try, it just hurts all the more.
She has to make that stand, and she shouldn’t stand alone. Other people actually knowing what’s at stake, aside from an abstract concept, will help her do that.
I don’t think Joyce has it in her to fight back right now. She seems thoroughly spent to me.
It’s pretty safe to say that’s not in defiance of God.
Ah, but that’s the thing about god: He[sic] will be anything you want him to be.
That’s a well trained pet you got there, Dorothy.
Screw it class is canceled
I refuse to post “School’s ou forever”. I made that joke awhile ago. Its only funny once.
This is Dumbing of Age, where one day can last two years. School is the opposite of out forever.
But if we ever get to Summer…
Time Skip!
“Let’s do the time warp agaiiiiiiiiin!”
… we’ll get to see more sculpted caramel abs?
…the strip may very well end.
I have a hard time, sometimes, following stories in webcomics. Reading one page at a time, especially in a four-panel format, means I miss a lot of connections and details. So I don’t know if this is something everyone but me has realized because I’m dense or if it’s an actual revelation, but it just struck me.
Roz thinks Joyce is talking about Leslie.
Great connection. I had put it together that Roz didn’t know about Becky but I hadn’t realized that there was a misdirect that makes her scorn more sympathetic.
…wow, did not see that. Thanks for the insight!
Thank you for this, I hadn’t realized, but it makes a lot of sense.
… that is brilliant … so does this mean Roz is in part reacting to Joyce trying to suck up to Leslie? … does she feel like her ‘special’ relationship with Leslie is threatened by this somehow?? (I’m hypothesizing about Roz’s views here in case that’s unclear)
(I’m so glad there is still a few threads in the comments that haven’t been consumed by flaming and hate.)
I’m not sure I’m getting the same interpretation. Especially when Roz pointedly asked, “Something happen?” when she was criticizing Joyce’s sudden concern for the issue. It sounds more like she’s referring to something outside of the classroom, whether she knows anything about the hypothetical situation or not. Joyce’s emotional response shows that something about the conversation is hitting close to home for her, and Roz is picking up on that (but she’s not impressed because, you know, Joyce’s attitude up until recently).
Still, if it does turn out that she thinks it’s about Leslie then that could be interesting!
He didn’t wind up boning her, why the hell should he learn her name?
I think I may be doubly affected by this for an odd reason. One of the big books which turned me away from fundamentalism to a more encompassing Christianity was, of all books, Carrie. I’ve always identified with Carrie White and sympathized with the horrific mental abuse she suffered from both her parents as well as Classmates. I may be too hard on Roz because she reminds me of the girls who bullied Carrie to insanity. Part of the reason for Carrie’s unpopularity was she parroted many of her mother’s fundamentalist views and this caused the more liberal classmates to bully her viciously. So, really, I can’t help but think of Roz as the girl dumping pig’s blood on poor Joyce.
+1!!!
That’s exactly what the last few pages got me thinking about, too. Even made me pull my copy off the shelf to read a bit. I get how many people don’t like Joyce, but she’s at least trying to be a good person, and that’s more than a lot of people can say. She’s just doing it the only way she knows how, and she’s learning how to do so better with each passing day.
This situation is kinda like the Allegory of the Cave, where the cave represents Joyce’s strict religious upbringing, and after she’s put outside in the light, when she goes to comment about the wonders of the world, some outside person goes, “Well, duh. How could you have not noticed something so obvious? You should be ashamed of yourself, you fucking cave-dweller.”
The thing is, I’m not sure Roz is out of the cave herself. How much has she questioned her beliefs? She’s very sympathetic to a liberal audience because, hey, we agree with her values but I’m not sure she grew up with much critical self-examination.
Roz wasn’t spoon-fed these ideas – she comes from parents who apparently don’t like contraceptives, and now she’s a condom cheerleader.
That said, I agree on the lack of critical reexamination – after she cemented her current views. Her self-righteousness betrays that.
Wait, you’re fighting on both sides? I’m sure that makes you some sort of …
… horrible …
… monstrous …
… balanced person …
I knew I liked you for something other than your grav 🙂
Ah, back in school, when there was a discussion between a teacher and my classmates. And I delivered arguments for both sides. And my classmates really didn’t like it. (=
What’s fun is arguing the side that no one likes to even acknowledge. I remember arguing against the Sons of Liberty in elementary school for being thugs, to the chagrin of everybody else (we were role-playing in class, and this is in the US). I’m almost surprised they didn’t send me to Canada, just like in the actual Revolutionary War. Woulda served me right for pointing out that tarring and feathering a person is a horrible thing to do.
A good argument is always fun. You do have to look out for the bad ones, but when you find one where both sides are doing their best to prove their point without disrespecting each other, it can be… fulfilling.
I do need to pick a more unique grav of Sarah, though (favorite character in DoA).
To be clear, this is Rycan, trying to get a Gravatar to work. I have a better understanding of winchite than I do of websites.
Out of context comments are the best!!
-_-
If Joyce is overly reliant on her Bible and the interpretations she’s been spoon-fed for it, Roz has very likely had to fight tooth and nail for every one of her beliefs already–we’ve seen how Robin treats her, and there’s the whole no-birth-control thing. It’s very likely that Roz’s sole learned mode of communication is confrontation, just like Joyce’s is attempting to use really, really horrible parables.
I don’t hate Joyce. I’m loving watching her grow as a person. I’m just frustrated about the fact that Roz is somehow not getting the same degree of latitude.
It’s not that the DeSantos didn’t approve of contraceptives, they just plain didn’t use them a lot and ended up having at least three kids, probably more.
I doubt Robin actually believes the shit she spews and probably just says it so she can curry favour with her conservative voters. If she has the same backstory as in the Walkyverse, then she’s a bi woman raised by a mother who instilled a belief that it was totally okay to be who you are as long as you’re a good person, without any contradiction in her religion (and if I recall correctly, Walkyverse!Robin was Christian as well). She seem pretty thrilled to be at Robin’s wedding to Leslie.
I don’t know. On one hand I can believe that, while Roz has the right ideals, she needs to temper them and learn when it’s appropriate to start shouting them, and it’s kind of shitty to flip out at someone for not learning the right thing fast enough. On the other hand, I doubt Willis would ever write a sex positive, liberal feminist apologizing to a Christian fundamentalist for saying mean things.
“I have to go, my planet needs me”.
Well, I thought that when I catch up with old comics it will be weird to me to see those characters without fifteen years of baggage. And I was right, but I am glad to see that some of them (like for example Leslie) didn’t change so much.
I do like the context behind certain background characters, though. They’re more like cameos now.
“Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that.”
Roz’s way won’t work. It generally doesn’t. Kicking someone during their first step doesn’t teach them to walk better.
The thing is: Love isn’t the same as “non-violence” or “non-aggression”. A lot of horrible things are done in the name of “love” in some form, like war. Love is even an inspiration for hate itself.
This is true. It addition I would add that “hate” and “love” are not opposites. The opposite of “love” is indifference. (Yes, I know I did not come up with this. But for the life of me I can’t remember where I first heard it.)
Well, I can’t say where you first heard it (I first heard it in high school, where the chaplain was very fond of saying it)…
But it originated with Elie Wiesel. Or at least he popularized it…I can’t say for absolute sure he coined it, but it’s most likely.
I was sure I’d closed that italic tag… (Only ‘absolute’ should be italicized.)
The source code says that there is a closing tag after “absolute”, but another one opens right after. WTF?
I never got that. The opposite of love is hate, the opposite of passion is indifference. That’s like saying ‘the opposite of turning right is not turning anywhere.’
Well, turning right three times is the same as turning left.
Of course, turning right FOUR times is the same as not turning at all…
You’re righ– err, I agree that this is kind of a weird thing to say.
Clearly this means that the opposite of 1 is 3! The math checks out.
Jesus, stop stomping all over my inspirational MLK quotes.
“Ah, but what you don’t understand is that I cannot understand the shade and hue of things that aren’t explicitly said. Can you clarify your pithy statement with a bullet ed list of the definitions of love you are using?”
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
As if Dorothy was going to bring up any of these subjects.
This isn’t about “hate” or “love”; it’s about facing up to life and becoming a fully rounded human being.
Joyce is I think one of those people who will hide until forced to face the illogic of the situation that she herself has built. It’s the “dumbing” in the “dumbing of age”.
Mike waits outside, ready to take retribution for his shins
Jesus suffered for your sins
Joyce will suffer for your shins
Well, not YOUR shins, per say, but maybe Dorothy’s shins.
get it, cuz joycexdorothy
Dumbing of Age. Come for the college drama and premarital hanky panky, stay for the intellectual discussions in the comments.
Seriously? The first conversation was about scissoring, and docking. *very* intellectual.
Well, I learned something new from the first conversation, even if I did have to chase it down with Brain Bleach (TM).
Though I have to say, many of the discussions ARE intellectual, and very civil to boot. Of course, there is a pun marathon every other day, but still.
I’m willing to count the pun marathons as intellectual if you are.
Roz would agree – sex is serious business for her.
“I should go.”
“I should go.”
“I’ll go.”
Sure is Shepard in here.
Wrex.
Shepard.
Wrex.
Grunt
Can it wait? I need to perform some calibrations.
Things I am looking forward to seeing:
1. Joyce’s next conversation with Becky.
2. Joyce’s next conversation with Ethan.
3. Leslie ripping Roz a new one for her appalling attitude and behavior toward her fellow classmate.
Roz does need to be set straight on the difference between having liberal opinions and actually being a good/kind person. She has been failing at the latter pretty significantly in several of her appearances, and I hate to see someone who could be as awesome as her hovering around the same level of hateful mean-spiritedness as Mary.
Anyone else notice that Roz did not have a word to say against Joe? His dismissal of the depressing statistics from earlier and his stereotypical views of lesbian women obviously contributes to the problem of how lesbians are viewed and treated in society yet its “the fundie” who did not know any better and who is deeply moved by these statistics that she gets all righteous with.
Joe is (was?) a pawn in Roz’s political game against her sister.
He knows this and he is cool with it.
Joe hasn’t been pissing all over Roz, unlike Joyce.
Am I the only person that likes Joe? I mean, he isn’t exactly the most sensitive or thoughtful person in the world, but he’s not trying to force others to accept his philosophy and his behavior is pretty harmless compared to other people in DoA’s cast (looking at you, Ruth). He might not step out of his comfort zone a whole lot, but as long as it’s not hurting anyone I don’t really see any problem with it.
Besides, with Walky’s calc. quiz freakout and Joyce’s crisis of faith, someone’s gotta pick up the comic relief slack.
I like Joe! I actually relate to him on some level, plus he can offer up a punchline to boot.
Hell, the only active dislikes I can come up with are Blaine, Faz and Mary, whom I will happy ship off together on a desert island someplace–Mary and Faz can do the thing, and Blaine can critique every aspect of their lives, and the rest of the cast will be happier for it. Hell, I’d be tempted to push for a Kickstarter to fund a Slipshine story about that, because I really, really am a horrible person sometimes.
That said, all of these folks have some really, really frustrating moments of self-blindness and backsliding even when they get things right, and it drives me up the wall precisely because I like them so much. And yes, that includes Joe.
Left off Scarface of my list of hated characters, dammit.
I agree with your points, except I think their failings are part of why I keep coming here. It makes them human.
“Wow Roz got mad, she is literally the worst person in the world and I want bad things to happen to her”
“Haha Joe is so funny. And deep, you know? Anyway what’s that Mike character up to I love him”
No.
seriously the hypocrisy on this comment board is gross
One person acts like a real asshole.
Two people are obvious caricatures that (nearly) no one acts like and are played for comedy.
Not really hypocrisy.
Well, the latter two are comedy relief. The whole point of comedy relief is to step back and laugh.
With Roz, we didn’t step back. We became engaged, drawn in by our emotions. Doesn’t excuse the worst of our behavior, but it does illustrate the difference. Were Roz to have been comic relief, I would expect more disengagement.
That’s my best hypothesis right now.
I’m inclined to think that, while Mike has value of putting people right in front of their hypocrisies and his asshole-ness has a point for others, and Joe is more of a comic relief you rarely take seriously, Roz’ activism has always been about herself, and she doesn’t get any other redeeming characteristics.
(plus, if we remember the other universe and Jacob, she is basically three quarters of a rapist.)
I think Joe is an incredibly shallow person, Mike isn’t a lovable rogue but a genuinely bad person, and Roz is just plain mean and self-involved. There, do I get to complain? 🙂
No. No complaining for you. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
…
If Jail is somehow on Go due to your space warp, do not collect 400 dollars. If Jail is somehow on Free Parking due to your space warp, do not collect Free Parking benefits.
Roz is still three-quarters of a rapist in this comic, by her own logic. If Joyce, by associating with the church and religion, is fully complicit in and thoroughly guilty of all the bad things they do whether she knew about them or not, then Roz, by associating with that specific party and its attempted-rapist, is fully complicit in and thoroughly guilty of the attempted rape of Joyce, whether she knew it or not.
IIRC, she was very smug about the whole thing, too. ‘Ha ha ha, I bet miss fundy got schooled in the real world’ sort of thing. At least, until she found out that something happened. At which point her reaction was basically ‘aw, have a piece of tagboard! bye now.’
I don’t remember anyone screaming at Roz in the middle of class ‘Where was all your concern and outrage when we were helping our drugged, wounded, traumatized friend back to the dorm? All those people who condone rape because hey, it’s a party and she was asking for it? That was you.”
SHe showed up later with a pamplet to help Joyce find someone to talk about what happened to her…
Joyce squealed that she was trying to convert her to a coven…so yeah Roz tried to help and got called a witch (after being called a stripped to the roots harlot)
Haha, that’s hilarious! You sure showed that imaginary person And their imaginary opinions.
Aren’t we just a bunch of people with different opinions?
Who said Joe was deep? I’m pretty sure everyone agrees that he has shown nothing but shallowness. Yes, people do like Mike, but the reason people are upset with Roz is because Roz crossed a line. Mike knows when to stop. Roz intentionally disrespected Leslie, and instead of letting Joyce learn from her mistakes, yelled at her.
I don’t agree that “Mike knows when to stop” After all, he did punch Joe several times.
Siddown! You just got told joe! HAH!
So am I the only person who holds a warm glimmer of hope that the end of this conflict is Roz and Joyce becoming friends? Cause I can see it, faintly in the distance, with just a bit more common ground.
No. I can see Roz playing a role in the possibly soon to be coming confrontation between Becky and her dad. She’d definitely be on Joyce’s side then, despite the hostility now.
I think that will happen, but it will take awhile. It will be the result of and proof of character growth for both of them
Actually the groundwork could be in place in a couple of strips, if that’s the direction Willis is going.
Some bridges get burnt beyond repair.
(comment got et. Hopefully it doesn’t re-appear)
Also, on the subject of justifying Roz’s statements based on Joyce’s earlier statements, I have to ask. Where does it end?
What do you mean? There’s not a whole lot of history here, so it ends at, oh, four weeks ago, comic-time. During which, Joyce has been nothing but critical of Roz about things that are none of her gosh-dang business.
I mean when does it stop. If Roz gets to be awful to Joyce because Joyce was awful to Roz, where does it end? When has each side suffered enough to declare a winner? Is there really a winner?
I won’t ask what good it does, because the fact is that if any good comes out of these fights, it’s entirely accidental.
It’s a poor reason for this behavior, but a good explanation of the outright hostility seen.
Now I think Walky’s Moon-walking out the classroom.
Joyce just may be going to get Becky and that would be a good move, but I wonder? If she was doing that, wouldn’t she have said, wait please – I’ll be right back?”
Meanwhile, Joyce’s mother is bound to be on her way to the college to see these classmates who ‘stole her daughter’s phone and hollered about ‘worshipping Satan’ into it. And who is she going to find with Joyce?
Becky is about to be reveled to her dear loving Mum & Dad methinks.
I don’t think Joyce is going to bring Becky back to class, she’s just worried and going to see her.
And I doubt Joyce’s mom’s on the way, she may be a bongo but she’s likely familiar enough with teenaged pranks to not really be suspicious.
To reiterate:
Fuck you Roz
can i like, upvote this?
Joe, you went on a date with her! A few weeks ago! And got your ass beat in the process! I’m pretty sure you should remember the names of the people involved for a good while afterwards!
Joe is too manly to admit that he cares. Or has feelings. That’s for girls. And Dannys.
I think he’s pretending to care about Becky, not Joyce.
Becky and Joe have met exactly once in person, and he has no idea she’s a lesbian, much less that she’s still on campus.
And he’s just trying to get out of class so he doesn’t need to know any of those things.
Ok that’s it I don’t even know who the idiot in yellow is anymore. Nor do I give 2 shits or even one.
Why can’t Walky just admit he cares?
Because NOT caring is kind of his thing.
Well, aleast he knows when he should stay put and when not to, not many seems to manage doing that really, which just even further proves he and dorothy are best suited for each other;)
He’s really just moral support in this situation. Becky’s not staying with him, he’s got nothing to really add and he usually just makes Joyce feel worse on his own.
He sees himself as the class clown, just like Joe
Ms. Bean asks if anyone else wants to go and then tells Joe to siddown when he wants to go. I think we know who the real villain is here.
The real villain… was Kevin Spacey all along!
What I appreciate about you, Roz, is that you are representing a legitimate anger. Joyce was tacitly bolstering positions and an institution that is actively harmful to her best friend, sister, ‘boyfriend’/object of lust, and to Roz (let’s not forget the super slut-shamey warning Joyce was giving her 2 or 3 weeks ago (comic time) about the spiritual ‘consequences’ of sex outside of marriage). It’s not as though Joyce couldn’t have questioned her brand of christianity’s attitude to sexuality before, she just didn’t have incentive because she, personally, was comfortable. Yes, she’s coming around, but that doesn’t spare her from examining or being confronted with her previous inaction and the role that plays.
No, demanding to drag someone’s personal life into the classroom isn’t cool (and it seems like it’s breakin’ some class rules to boot) – but asking where that outrage was yesterday is not an unfair question.
And now because I’m a jerk and have a busy day I’m going to ghost. *poof*
People keep bringing up the slut-shaming, and it’s a good point…but if that is part of Roz’s motivation, she really shouldn’t be using homeless LGBT kids as a cover for her own grievances.
I don’t think she is using homeless LGBT kids as a cover for her own grievances. I think that’s just the conversation that triggered Joyce’s public turn around, which in turn elicited Roz’s response which is germane to that issue as well as the casual, yet aggressive slut shaming.
If those institutions are to move away from homophobia and be confronted with their problems, they need people like Joyce to be informed of their problems so they can be rectified.
That is true – but the onus to look into things is on those within the institution. Sheltered though she may be, Joyce has not been without a choice to really think through the whole homosexuality issue before – she just hasn’t had the self-interest as an incentive to do so.
I get the sense from other comments that your problems with this arc are:
1) You don’t like Roz based on some personal associations which lead you to think of her as the kind of bully you’d find in a Stephen King novel. I think this is a view of the character not truly borne out by the strip so far. Roz is blunt and stubborn and, yes, gives Joyce grief for being a fundie. And Joyce gives grief back on at least one occasion. But when Roz believes that Joyce is truly vulnerable and hurting after the incident at the first party of the year – Roz encourages her to seek and provides information for how to go about it. For all her abrasiveness, Roz doesn’t seem to be truly malicious towards Joyce at all.
2) You don’t like the way Roz is delivering information. And well, I don’t really see an obligation for her to put things to Joyce in the kindest possible way. And well…see original comment.
* seek help
…and apparently I’m Joe on this device. Awesome.
Roz is 18? She’s allowed to think she’s right about everything. I thought exactly the same way when I was 18.
It’s the arrogance of youth.
I’m 19 and I think I’m wrong about everything.
I’m 20 and I’m wrong about what I think.
I’m twelve and you wouldn’t be able to tell. In the past three years i think my faith in God is stronger than ever, and the funny thing about this all is that pretty much grew up into the sucky evil shitty world of the internet, and I came out alive.
ha ha jk i’m *totally* 20.
I’m 28 and I’ve been reading David Willis comics for literally about half of my life.
Something something finish Avalon for Josh something or other…
I’m 30 and you damn kids are ruining everything!
I’m 45 and I think the kids are alright–give ’em time.
I’m 23 and appreciate seeing this attitude. Still think I’m invincible, though.
The one thing I don’t like about this is that Joyce is running away from her problems AGAIN – hoping for someone like Dorothy to come comfort her.
Yes she has good reason to, after Roz’s attack. But at some point she’s going to need to bunker down and fight her own battles, like what she did for Dorothy.
Did you even read the comic? She’s going after Becky, she’s not running away.
Does she actually need to? If Roz hadn’t attacked her, Joyce would probably just have sat through the class. She’s just using it as an excuse not to have to put up with being attacked anymore.
So, one thing that keeps on rumbling through my mind is, there’s a bunch of people who’re cheering Roz on saying “What Joyce needs is tough love.” But, I can’t help but feel that even if this is actually an attempt at tough love as opposed to scoring points or getting a dig in at someone she doesn’t like, it’s the worst kind of tough love. Seriously, it is the opposite of helpful.
And to those saying, “But Joyce needs some tough love,” I totally agree. And she is already getting it. I mean, that’s kinda Sara’s deal. She’s grumpy, she’s cynical, but she’s also really good at getting to the heart of the matter in a way that’s helpful. Most of the times that Joyce has needed help, Sara’s been there to offer it. Heck, with the Becky thing, Sara has been watching Joyce’s back, whether it was by figuring out that something was up and making sure Becky didn’t have something bad for Joyce planned or by telling Joyce that she had to come up with a long term plan because Becky just can’t hide there forever.
So, yeah. I can understand why people emotionally sympathise with Roz. I can understand why some people really don’t like the Church. But to say that Roz is dropping truth bombs that need to be dropped because otherwise Joyce is getting coddled is utterly absurd because Sara’s already there and showing how truth bombs should be dropped with style and grace.
I agree. Life doesn’t spare Joyce any punches right now. She was already reduced to tears before roz started to speak. Who knows what she would have learned if she could have stayed throughout the lesson.
I do think Roz served an important function for the story, bringing the protagonist down to her lowest point, creating tension and drama and so on, but we shouldn’t confuse the needs of the story with the needs of its characters.
Pretty sure Roz has no idea who Sarah is, and certainly doesn’t know what she’s saying to Joyce in their dorm. Also knows nothing about Becky. She just heard a till-then homophobic fundamentalist have an outburst and was unimpressed.
Yeah, in other words, Roz is an incredibly ignorant person talking smack about someone she knows nothing about.
or that could not actually be what is going on
She knows something about Joyce–that Joyce thinks she’s a soulless witch.
It’s weird because Roz lives on their floor, but aside from the floor meetings nobody seems to actually interact with her outside of Mary.
I think that’s just a case of which social circle the comic focuses on. There are plenty of girls we only see as background extras with one or too reactionary lines now and then. It’s easy to imagine Roz hanging out with them.
Also, she obviously knows older students if her being comfortable with inviting people to the party is anything to go by, and she is probably involved in some sort of SexEd organization, and if her interaction with Joe is anything to go by she probably spends a night at the boys dorm now and then (and high fives Joe in the morning as they meet each other on the way back to respective dorm), so she has plenty of possible interaction with people we never see.
So, it’s not stranger that we don’t see more of Roz than, say, Agatha (or Sierra for that matter, even if she is roommate with one of the main protagonists)
Huh. I thought the current greeting was double point and tongue click. I will have to update my weird greetings handbook.
Roz not knowing who Sarah is would be a great point if I were talking to her. This is more meant as a counter to other commenters saying Joyce needs to hear the harsh truths in order to be a better person. Basically, it is my attempt to say that there are different ways to try and get hard truths across, and that Sarah’s method is, by and large, more empathetic and probably effective than what Roz is up to, which mostly just seems traumatic.
bringing up Sara is interesting as I think it illustrates what I don’t like about Roz’s actions quite well.
Ultimately I feel like Roz’s actions don’t ever come from a place of empathy. That is to say that when Roz does something she isn’t motivated by much beyond how she thinks it will make people admire her.
Am I the only one who would honestly like to high-five Roz right now? She’s correct about everything she said and it’s genuinely not her problem if that makes Joyce feel bad.
Joyce should feel bad. Up until Becky showed up, Joyce was morally reprehensible.
Well, given I think Roz is a bully who punches down and enjoys lording her superiority over people she thinks are not “good” people, I certainly disagree with you. Roz is pretty much Mary, IMHO, and a terrible example of a person.
dude hating on Roz, while it can be easy, is pretty much stooping to her level, I think a huge message here is that even when evil and hate can be justified, it isn’t good.
Like I said, I guess I see Roz as the girl dumping pig’s blood on Joyce at the Prom.
I would really like to see you respond to the fact that Roz tried to help Joyce on at least one occasion (and, if Joyce hadn’t been so convinced Roz is a soulless witch, her help would’ve been the best thing that could’ve been done for Joyce, possibly mitigating her subsequent PTSD).
what on earth kind of comparison is that? I missed the part where Roz abused and ostracized Joyce for years and then tricked her to gain her trust before publicly humiliating her. Oh wait it’s more like two peers having it out verbally. not to mention Joyce clearly has the support of Dorothy and the teacher so yes of course you’re right it’s exactly like Carrie
Roz and Mary as roommates now makes a lot of sense; they’ve gone to opposite sides of the spectrum and found the same well of spite and hate.
seeing as how Joyce threw a ‘punch’ at her in the past, her swinging first isn’t ‘punching down’. Joyce is a grownup
If gay oppression was really what Roz’s anger is about, why didn’t she call out Joe’s dismissal and rude treatment of lesbian women? At the very least she has a major double standard going on.
No amount of tone issue is going to make me think Roz is wrong.
That doesn’t mean I think Joyce is a bad person. Generally, she makes compassionate choices about the people around her while using her faith to empower her. However, in attempting to convert Ethan she is generally in step with how “the church” has been framed as acting in the comic (I still find it weird a specific denomination hasn’t come up). And while she now thinks homosexuality might not be a sin, I feel like she might walk back that notion just like she reserved the right to walk back calling out the church. Even if she doesn’t, it seems like she realized it was hurtful to Becky to frame her identity as having the possibility of being sinful.
On the subject of the conversion, Joyce inadvertently admitted she’s trying to convert her boyfriend and Dorothy didn’t follow up on that at all. Unlike, say, Sarah, who clearly cares about Joyce but is willing to push on all of her preconceived notions.
And finally, Roz isn’t privy to all the growth we see Joyce going through, and yet still managed to call Joyce on her behaviour accurately. She holds beliefs blindly until they intersect with people she cares about, then she actually considers them. She should think about them first! Or at the very least, realize she hasn’t thought about them and keep mum before she spouts them off as immutable truths. When Joyce presents the doctrine of her church without having considered it, she’s not exercising her individuality at all. She is essentially a mouth piece of the church.
Roz was harsh, but I think Joyce realizing that she should evaluate her views as a whole is something worth getting harsh about. Homosexuality can’t just be okay for her best friend.
There’s also the fact she’s basically responding in kind to some of Joyce’s proclamations. Joyce literally said that Roz’s soul is like a flower ripped down to the roots because she chooses to have sex. I find a statement like that to be way more offensive than a statement about holding views without introspection.
What you’ve basically said is Roz is going to talk about a person she knows nothing about in the most hurtful manner possible. She does it to hurt Joyce and knowingly so despite the fact she knows NOTHING ABOUT HER other than her own image. I can talk smack about Brad Pitt all I want but I don’t KNOW Brad Pitt so it’s pretty dumb to do so.
That’s not what I said.
Roz knows what she knows about Joyce’s opinions based on how Joyce has presented herself, and despite that being a fairly limited picture, she has accurately described Joyce’s thought process in changing her views.
That doesn’t mean that she magically knows the series of words that will make Joyce sad. She says that Joyce is “the church” because Joyce presents herself as a representative of her religion/her god/”the church” with almost everything she says and does.
I dunno where you’re pulling this Brad Pitt comparison from, but if you’ve been in a class sharing opinions on gender with Brad Pitt, then, yes, you can respond to the views he’s expressed.
I’m prepared to cut Dorothy slack on not following up on “Joyce is trying to de-gay Ethan” for the moment. Even if she worked it out right away, Joyce then explained that she’s sheltering her gay friend in her room, which is a more immediately pressing problem and probably took up whatever discussion time they had before the class they’re in right now. One problem at a time.
Also, I’d like to point out that Dorothy may actually INTEND to talk about the fact Ethan is gay to Joyce but may want to think about how to approach the issue first given it’s not something you can just lecture someone on. Also, the small issue of the fact he’s a closeted gay man who has not chosen to reveal his sexuality to Dorothy. I.e. it’s an issue which needs to be addressed but maybe you should take a minute to think how to approach it with your new best friend who you know is very emotionally vulnerable.
The issue of Joyce’s denomination, or lack therof, was brought up in http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/02-choosing-my-religion/nondenominational/
Oh, for Heaven’s sake. Has none of you ever heard someone say “It’s not what you said, it’s how you said it?” Roz may be right factually, but she’s wrong in tone and timing.
I think in this case, it’s not so much that as who she said it to. Joyce is the fundamentalist who recently took in her lesbian disowned friend, then decided to interpret the Bible to fit her own personal beliefs, which she admitted in the same page goes against her personal beliefs.
Which she did because she needed to know she was doing the christian thing. She is also creating a template for a homosexual man to use for his self-damaging delusion of the white, straight male his mom always wanted where his sexuality isn’t a stigma or a problem.
Those last two in particular seems to piss a lot of people to the point that they approve of any negative comments sent her way.
Yeah, at this point all the valid points of each side have been posted and re-posted, and now it’s come down to “Who I like/don’t like more.”
I’m sure future events will give us plenty of material to revive it though. Willis got some good mileage out of yesterday’s strip!
Perhaps both the Pro-Joyce and the Pro-Roz camps can agree that a hearty Damn You Willis!!! should be shouted for the drama he hath unleashed upon us.
I’m going to have to echo the sentiments of being somewhat perturbed on the tenor of the Roz hate. I mean, Joe and Mike do some really messed up stuff and its sort of handwaved off and Roz here isn’t perfect and does something unnecessarily cruel out of misplaced anger and there’s so many gendered slurs thrown at her that Willis had to put on a bongo filter.
I mean, yeah, Roz was out of line. Her statement was accurate and probably largely informed by the comments her sister made when she visited on how the college district is surrounded by and overshadowed by type of people Roz sees Joyce as embodying. Additionally, one can empathize with the fact that to her, Joyce is just the person who slut shamed her pretty painfully in the past and represents a lot of worldview that Roz has probably fought with as not only an activist, but a reproductive access activist (note that this would be a field where Christian-identified people have made a sport out of killing doctors and terrorizing women).
Does this excuse her not seeing Joyce as a person? No. Was her statement during class time at all appropriate? HELL no, and Leslie did what any good teacher would in trying to shut that down hard and she would be remiss if she didn’t follow up after class to reiterate the class rules (I’m actually genuinely curious to see that interaction).
And these are the main flaws in her approach. It’s one thing to call out hypocrisy. It’s one thing to be unkind in that approach instead of being forced into a narrow role feminist-identified women are allowed to be in when they call things out. It’s one thing to be confident in one’s beliefs, but it is another thing entirely to tear down someone so obviously in pain during class time simply because one sees them as an archetype one despises. And it is this that make her actions unacceptable at this time.
Or as someone said yesterday, she’s not wrong, she’s just being an asshole.
I agree that those slurs are just horrible. Really? Can’t we disagree with a (fictive) woman without resorting to gendered insults? Do we all live in a patriarchy or something?
Roz is pretty factually wrong too. Its pretty clear from Joyce’s reaction that she had no idea about the church’s stance on treating homosexual youth, and did not agree with it. Yet Roz is entirely basing her justification for shaming Joyce on the incorrect assumption that in the past she has supported leaving homeless youth out on the street to fend for themselves because the church said so.
I’m not a Mike apologist and like how, in the DOA universe, he’s just a bad person who enjoys manipulating and destroying people. I.e. he’s kind of a more realistic sociopath–the ones who don’t become serial killers but go on to become CEOs. In the case of Roz, I really dislike her because I’ve met a lot of people like her in real-life who barge into conversations in real life and lecture people on the “right” side without having knowledge of who they were talking to. Some self-hatred may be involved since I used to be that asshat.
Wait… that’s what bongo means?!
Seriously, I thought the DoA comments were at least a good enough place not to see shit like that.
No, Roz is being an asshole, and she’s wrong.
She’s being a massive hypocrite, issuing a collective judgement on a single shallow thing she knows about Joyce — and pinning collective blame on her for the actions of others.
It’s no different from people who judge the entirety of all homosexuals based on lurid half-truths about anonymous gay-bar sex and dimwitted, sensationalist media coverage of the assless-chaps section of a gay pride parade.
I’d seriously contribute to a Kickstarter for an alternate timeline dealie where we get to see how Joyce would’ve reacted if this had been the syllabus for the prior week’s classes. Because frankly, I strongly suspect it would’ve been a blend of denial and apologetics. Either refusing to believe Leslie at all (ala ‘dinosaurs had feathers’), or explaining away the situation as an attempt at tough love, meant to turn the poor, Satan-deluded gay people away from the horror of their bad lifestyle choices.
Roz’s opening comment–‘Did something happen?’ in this discussion was spot-on accurate; Joyce changes her beliefs only if and when not doing so would cost her a friendship. She’s like the living embodiment of cognitive dissonance coping strategies. “Oh, you’re an atheist? Well, I guess I can forgive that, since I have the Jesus-granted power to forgive people’s sins.” “Oh, you’re gay, Ethan? Well, so long as you’re willing to try and change, you’re still okay.” “Oh, you’re a confirmed lesbian, Becky? Well, I’m not gonna turn my back on you, so let me find someone somewhere who says that’s okay with the Bible so that I don’t have to think about it too hard.”
If and when Joyce can turn her love for her friends into a view of humanity as a whole? She’s gonna be FANTASTIC. Til then… not so much.
I think Joyce will, if she has not already. She’s already made herself clear as someone who does not at all like inconsistencies from her worldview. The first thing she did after accepting Becky was search for a reason to not find homosexuality offensive in general.
People keep on treating Joyce like she’s just making exceptions for her friends, but I don’t think that’s the case. I think she’s made friends that have proved things she learned false, and adjusted the way she views the world accordingly.
Okay since the Roz discussion is still going on, and I was trying to ignore it yesterday, but here’s my two cents.
Joyce has been the “WORST CHARACTER EVER” for her fundie thinking and actions. Billie has been it for her shallowness at the beginning of the comic strip. Sarah has been it for her grouchiness. Joe has been it for his objectification of women. Danny has been it for Danning everything up. Dorothy has been it for wanting Walky to change pants and not being sensitive enough to Danny’s feels. Ruth has been the worst for actually being abusive. Becky is the worst for a desperate emotionally charged sentence and not knowing bisexuality is a thing because she’s been really sheltered. I’m pretty sure Sal has been it for accusing Walky of being whiter than her. Mike has been it for being Mike.
My point is, this comment section is always unreasonably reactionary to every plot point, and I can’t take the “Roz is the worst” seriously because next week Roz may do something cool and someone else will be doing something flawed and become the worst, when really Ryan is the worst DOA character.
(and on a lesser scale, Mary.)
Heh, only too true. And all the teachers (except Leslie) are the worst for being crappy teachers, and all the parents (with a few exceptions) are the worst for being crappy parents and David Willis is the worst because DAAAAAMN YOUUUUU.
Oh, and Blaine and Ross are up there with Ryan for being the actual worst.
But for me that’s part of the appeal with both Dumbing of Age and Shortpacked. Horribly, HORRIBLY flawed characters making each other better, and we get to see the journey. I’m actually rooting for horrible, abusive Ruth and her Stockholm syndrom relationship with the girl she bullied into her bed from her position of power.
It’s a safe bet in all these discussions that EVERYONE involved is in the wrong somehow. But the point is that they are all very human. Their flaws, their bad decisions, their abuse of each other – that’s the story. And that’s why we spent 1000+ comments discussing Roz and Joyce yesterday because that makes us part of the story.
I don’t know Mary’s backstory but I think it’d be kind of funny to find out she’s not from a fundamentalist background like Joyce but converted to religious fundamentalist from another environment. Sort of like Paige from the Americans who is a fundamentalist daughter of atheist (and communist spy) parents.
Goddamnit, Roz, I don’t like you at all right now.
I don’t like your jerk-off face, I don’t like your jerk-off behaviour, and I don’t like you.
Jerk-off.
Goddamnit, Roz, I don’t like you at all right now.
I don’t like your jerk-off face, I don’t like your jerk-off behaviour, and I don’t like you.
Jerk-off.
I’m Commander Shepherd and this is my favorite lesbian on the citadel, I should go.
You know, it just occurred to me: Roz’s roommate is Mary. Roz has had very little interaction with Joyce, but she’s had a ton from Mary.
I begin to wonder how much of Roz’s hate/spite/vindictiveness towards Joyce is rooted in Roz being sick of Mary, the main Miss Fundie in her life at the moment?
Good thought.
I totally missed/forgot that Roz and Mary are roomies.
There can be little doubt that we’ll see more of THAT situation in the future.
So no Roz and Leslie conversation? Disappoint.
Give it time. It’s only been, what, a minute tops since she opened her mouth? Given the rate this comic moves at, we should probably be hitting the end of the class in a couple of weeks.
Hopefully we won’t be seeing anything before end of class as Leslie seems like a pro.
A minute?
Try ten seconds
Yeah, I’m hoping to see Leslie snag Roz on the way out of class since she’s now staying, and really pin her ears back (despite being a Roz-defender in the Great Debate).
Can someone point me to the strip where Joyce “slut-shames” Roz?
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/petals/
That would be here.
Fwiw real world Dina is on Dirty Jobs right now on Animal Planet, she is a paleontologist named Selena.
Wait. They kept Dirty Jobs going without Mike Rowe?
Animal planet runs frequent marathons of reruns.
Technically, scissoring isn’t much of a real thing among actual lesbians, as far as I know. It doesn’t work that well and it’s inconvenient and a lot of effort. There are a lot of easier, better things to do. Scissoring was mostly invented by straight-gaze lesbian porn.
Anyone else just get the hipocracy of being mad at Joyce for not immediately leaving the church due to not practicing in free thought? I mean, doesn’t free thought suggest that new decisions are considered and held up to previous evidence before being followed, and that consideration includes slowly taking in new data, trying to filter out the data which is likely false?
I mean, I always kinda got the concepts discussed, but the hipocracy was a little unexpected.
Roz’s issue is that Joyce tends to be selective in when and where she applies critical thinking–that it only seems to occur to her to question something an authority figure says IF it first impacts one of her friends. Roz, I suspect, has a life-long habit of constantly challenging authority, and probably has a default setting of ‘No, unless you give me a good reason’ when getting an order. (Look at how her confrontation with Leslie goes, as well as the prior one with the Dean.)
DAMN YOU WILLIS! IF THIS REALLY WAS YOUR DOING: https://twitter.com/damnyouwillis/status/565295854870069248 THEN DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU DAMN YOU DAMN YOU! I DON’T WANT THE DAILY SHOW TO END!!! *sob* I need my funnies *sob* No news *sob* Damn you Willis. I don’t care if you did give us bongos
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Okay, I care a little. But still. Worst. Karma. Ever.
I’m Brian and so is my wife!
They call her “Girl with Triangle Grin.”