Roz, Joe thanks you for eclipsing any chance he might have had of looking like the biggest jerk in this scene. For all his insensitivity, he just wants to pull his head into his turtle shell when compassion and feelings are called for, not actually try to start shit.
I have a feeling Roz is about to find out what matters more to Leslie– a chance at a date with Robin DeSanto or the relative emotional safety of her classroom– and be quite unprepared for the answer.
If a student is being disruptive she is totally within her rights to call her on it, kick her out of class for that day, etc. She obviously can’t haul off and wack her, but I don’t think any of us really want that.
I agree philosophically with Roz, but her “more sex-positive-than-thou” act is every bit as narrow-minded and judgmental as Joyce’s church.
Ugh, yes. The only thing more annoying than closed-minded bigots is faux-open-minded bigots who lord their open-mindedness over those who are less so and attack them when they show even the slightest sign of growth. “Oh, you realize you were wrong? GOOD ALLOW ME TO INSULT YOU AND EVERYTHING YOU STOOD FOR EVEN THOUGH YOU CLEARLY ARE RETHINKING IT”
Yup. Hit them with that guilt too hard and they might just back away from that growth and desperately start burying themselves back in their ignorance so they don’t have to face it.
Not to mention, Roz is wrong. Joyce was (and is) a member of a church that doesn’t tolerate queerness, but she personally hasn’t done anything (that we’re aware of) to actively get LGBQT* kids disowned. The only thing she is guilty of is blindly following the path her parents and church set out for her.
Now Mary I’m willing to bet would and has taken an active role in attacking queer kids; but Joyce? Had all sorts of assumptions that she started dropping pretty much immediately after seeing them diametrically opposed to reality (for example, in the comic where Ethan came out as gay to her, and she replied “You seem normal.”).
So not really true, and really, really not fair of Roz.
I can’t wait until tomorrow. It’s like watching Russian traffic accidents on YouTube. Suddenly, there will be a car upside down in a ditch, but you aren’t quite sure which one it will be or how it will get there…
This is a good point. To make a point about the flip side of this: I’m from California, and I’ve had gay friends probably all my life and definitely from my teens on up. I never felt the need to actively be an ally in even a small way until I went to grad school in Texas, because I just assumed that the bigots and idiots were in the minority.
Not to mention Joyce was never taught about any of these subjects until she came to the college. It’s not that she was passively supporting them, it’s that she was more…sheltered from how bad things could really be and actively closed them out of her vision.
She’s finally coming to her senses and Roz basically threw her open eyes into the dirt to make herself feel good about giving what she thinks is “righteous truth” to someone who was already realizing how much injustice was abound. Joyce wasn’t a monster who came around, she was an innocent who didn’t know better and is making strides towards improving. How she is helping and accepting Becky, as a lesbian, and stopped referring to her queer nature as a ‘mistake’ shows that.
Granted, we’re the audience, and know everything about said improvement, but Roz is being awful here.
Roz’s anger is justified but it is neither the time nor the place to bring this up, and as you said, there is a chance that this could stunt or stop any personal growth here. You shouldn’t attack people for becoming better people unless you want to try to make them stay bad people. The best way to fight hate is with love, not more hate.
um, “The only thing more annoying than closed-minded bigots is faux-open-minded bigots who lord their open-mindedness”… no? Being self-righteous in a mean way is not OK, granted, but needing time to forgive, or just snapping at people whatever the reason cannot be compared to shaming people for their sexuality. Which by the way is what Joyce herself did to Roz on one of their first encounters
Close-mindedness can happen to people irrespective of their ideology. When a particular set of values is viewed as open-minded you get the situation where dogmatic people are called open-minded. The hypocrisy of dogmatic “open-mindedness” is more annoying to contend with, but as of yet as done less harm.
Ugh, exactly. Every time Roz shows up she gets a ridiculous amount of hate and presumption. I’m not saying some of it isn’t deserved – she’s definitely out of line but damn it, she’s got a point and she’s not wrong for being frustrated with Joyce. OR for Dorothy for enabling her for that matter.
Keep in mind, Roz back in the Shortpacked-verse was so “open-minded” about sex-positivity that when a man turned her down for casual sex for a reason she didn’t like she basically stalked him until he gave in, wrecking his life in the process, and was never ever called on that.
So while this version of Roz may not have done anything like that, it’s in no way out of character and she still gets the hate her prior incarnation earned.
I’m not sure the Roz who gives cards to people she actively dislikes for help if she thinks they need it deserves to be lumped in the same boat as her SP! Counterpart.
I think the problem here is Joyce’s phrasing in yesterday’s page. “I am so angry at the church!” in no way admits any personal responsibility for the things Joyce herself has said and done to sex-positive and/or queer people in the past few weeks. It sounds like “the church has hurt these people but I’m still innocent!” I think THAT is what’s bringing Roz to pinpoint “that church was YOU!” today.
And look at Joyce’s reaction. She knows Roz isn’t wrong.
But isn’t she wrong, I mean, Joyce just never knew
about any of this. Roz is sorta just kicking a
puppy, Joyce IS starting to learn. Being mean, while
justified, isn’t okay
It’s true that Joyce is using weasel words to distance herself from guilt, but it’s unreasonable and unrealistic to expect her to climb up on a cross and beg the class for forgiveness. And, although Roz doesn’t actually know this, Joyce is actually housing a newly homeless gay youth in her dorm room, AND doing her best to protect her.
Ultimately Roz’s only real goal is gatekeeping: she cares about it more, she cares about it first, she cares about it without having it directly affect someone around her.
She isn’t in a position to do that, but she’s obediently supporting the people who do. And in the meantime she’s hating homosexuality, telling her gay boyfriend to resist temptation and thinks it’s appropriate to convert jewish people to christianity.
Your response is a case in point.
You are no more open-minded nor close-minded than the man you responded to. The OP was commenting that both Roz AND the church were in the wrong (not even going so far as to say all churches, just Joyce’s particular congregation), and both were being close minded. The fact that you immediately jumped to the defense of all churches with a none-to-surprising “holier than thou” spouting of anger means you just need to open your mind to more sides of the argument. The best way to understand your own viewpoint and defend it is to learn and understand what the other side is saying, not casting them down with rage and hellfire. If you can intelligently bring up their own points and debunk them, you’re on the fast track to being better able to defend your own perspective.
Please, think on it, and don’t let anger or passion guide all of your actions.
No, I gotta go with Roz on this one. It’s true, Joyce completely and utterly didn’t give a damn about how her entire belief system, how her entire structure of living, was hurting people, until it personally affected her. She can learn from that, but the truth is that it shouldn’t have taken her friend being hurt by evil for her to have spoken out against it. Roz is right – Joyce doesn’t get to be the hero today. And if Joyce wasn’t personally affected by it, she would STILL be part of a group which systematically oppresses people. Roz is being disruptive, sure, and can get kicked out of class. But she’s not wrong.
As much as I loathe Joe, I will admit if anyone could tell a woman was faking enjoying sex it would be him.
I’ve heard it’s possible for the ladies to expertly fake themselves getting to Happyville, but as far as the overall time together that would seem to me to be much harder to fake, esp with someone like Joe who’s well-versed in the ins-and-outs of the situation.
Robin asked her that and she specifically said no.
Didn’t specifically rule out bi or anything else, but certainly implied it wasn’t the case. (Attributed her “start kissing girls onstage” threat to Robin to just getting out of things, not attraction.)
This sets Roz apart from someone like Joe. As a character, Joe is extremely flat and nobody IRL is extremely flat. It makes you realize that something is going on inside is head that we don’t know. To be honest, I kinda agree with Roz but I would never say that out loud to someone like Joyce cause 1. I’m not a dickwad and 2. That’s the kind of thing you have to realize yourself like Joyce just did.
Joe is very similar to Walky in that he intentionally acts immature and superficial in attempt to “simplify” his life. They both have moments that show a lot of emotional depth and awareness. But otherwise the two of them put a lot of effort into avoiding sentimentality, in no small part due to their very traditional views on masculinity.
Oh, and I definitely agree that Roz does have a valid point underneath all of her hostility. But she’s putting it in the least helpful way possible and is an enormous jerkwad for acting like the gatekeeper to LGBT support.
I’m getting the impression what’s gotten Roz so upset (assuming it is indeed entirely about what’s happening here, and has nothing to do with what her time-bomb of a roommate is up to lately) is it looks like, to her, that Joyce is getting the spotlight (“I’m supposed to treat Miss Fundy like a goddamn hero?!”) that should belong to someone who actually deserves it. The disgust for Joyce’s disassociation with her upbringing’s collective sins seems to serve to cover up her less idealogical reasons…Ones that are very much beside the point for such serious issues… For this to upset her so much…
At what point do compassion and feelings have to give way to cold hard truth, though?
Roz is right; until someone close to Joyce turned out to be one of the “other”, the nicest thing she would do for them is try to convert them. I’m tired of politicians and clergy and other religious people suddenly turn from a lifetime of discrimination just because one of their kids turns out to be gay. Hey, I was someone’s kid too, but you didn’t give a shit about me until it turned out you had a personal stake in it.
As much as I want to believe that people can change, and as much as I want to open my arms to the people who do, I’ve wanted to say what Roz has said in this strip many times, and I can’t help but get some satisfaction from seeing it.
“You changed your mind for the wrong reason!” seems like a really stupid thing to be mad at someone for. Everyone has their own reasons for realizing things. Are we really gonna sit here and rank these reasons as if you have the right to judge?
It is a stupid thing to be mad about, I know, and in the end, I’ll take as many allies as are willing, but I’m just not as quick to forgive as I should be, because it’s not easy to forgive it.
I don’t think it’s about changing her mind for the wrong reasons as it is about being a hypocrite. As I recall Joyce judged Roz in the past for the sex thing and she’s going to keep being judgmental until more people close to her cause her to change her mind overtime.
To be honest I sometimes feel that it takes a person turning into a hypocrite and confronting that hypocrisy before they develop as a person. Some of our decisions while growing tend to be rife with hypocrisy.
I feel it’s not about either. If you don’t examine your beliefs except when something occurs that happens to your friends, then you won’t examine nearly all of your beliefs.
Joyce has been fighting the moral requirement to question for some time. In fact, that struggle is arguably the ongoing theme of the comic as a whole.
It seems like Heinous Acts wasn’t mad that politicians changed stance for the wrong reason, but that these politicians kept their old, personally harmful stance for decades, during which they perpetuated homophobia and enacted really hurtful laws. It would’ve been nice if they’d skipped all those decades in the middle and properly treated everyone like family from the get-go.
Since we don’t have a time machine, I’m happy to celebrate the late-bloomers, too. But Roz has a point — maybe not to Joyce, who is trying hard and learning, but to the powerful adults in Joyce’s life who really ought to know better.
Not so much, “you changed your mind for the wrong reason”, as “you are a selfish person who cannot be depended on to do the right thing unless it suits you personally”.
Pretty much my thoughts. The way Roz went about saying this was aggressive but she has a point and she’s not required to be nice to Joyce while calling her out on her hypocrisy. But because she went about it like she did in a classroom where order and a certain level of respect need to be maintained for the sake of the learning environment Leslie was justified in removing her.
Noo, not at all. More like “You had no idea how this actually worked until it happened to someone close to you who confided in you”. Joyce isn’t selfish, there wasn’t anything selfish in her behaviour to date. She just didn’t understand, in this particular case, that she was harming people instead of helping them.
The problem with Roz’s outburst is that it doesn’t do any good at all. Joyce just learned something important, she is now capable of compassion where she didn’t previously have it, she is saying, out loud, that she is ANGRY at her church because of how it treats people, where previously she was certain the church was correct. Not the mark of a selfish person.
And what purpose is there to Roz shitting on that? Except to make her feel morally superior to Joyce, I guess. Bleh.
More like “You didn’t think about this till it affected someone you know personally”. Not thinking about your morals till you put them into practice is exactly why Joyce is having to readjust her morals right now.
Expecting people to have a fully functioning, real world tested sense of morality before they’ve even moved out from their parent’s roof for the first time is frankly ludicrous. We might as well criticize high schoolers for their lack of real world job experience.
I think people aren’t so upset at the message but how it was used. Roz is right but she’s kind of using the truth as a weapon to hurt Joyce. Even after Leslie’s warning. I don’t know who pissed in her Coco Puffs but being mean isn’t cool. But I guess it had to be said.
“I will make that hypocrisy hurt.” Frank Underwood/Roz
eh, based on what i could tell, Robin was the democratic equivalent of Sarah Palin politically. Both had/have no idea what they’re doing yet still gained popularity and political power
I can absolutely see Mary and Roz feeding off of each other, forming this wormhole of partisan hatred. They’re essentially the same person, deep down inside, but they have wildly different political views. The problem, of course, is that this person they both are is a selfish, heartless, hateful bongo.
When they see each other, they see horrible people, and then they use that as a generalization for each other’s entire affiliation, worsening the hatred they already have
Yes. However, comparing “uses the truth as a weapon” should still not be compared to “participates in ad perpetuates a culture of hate, shame and oppression”… the two are just not at the same level of evil
There’s a difference between being evil (see cartoon villains, Galasso) and just being a jerk for no reason. Mike, on the other hand, avoids both categories by being a jerk for a reason.
No, they shouldn’t be compared, but what Roz is doing is something that could very well come across as “You weren’t accepting in the past, so I won’t let you be accepting now!” I’d rather expect that most people who were doubtful about being accepting of LGBT people in the past would be more inclined to drop all support they were about to give in the face of a statement like that.
Source: I used to not be accepting, am now, and had similar experiences. It took a lot of work to push through and continue to be accepting. That was years ago, but even now I still feel twinges of “Am I actually accepting enough?”
When someone who’s been insensitive finally starts getting a clue, it is really, really dumb to belabor the point anywhere near that harshly. Or at all, really.
This isn’t about forgiving Joyce for her ignorance. It’s about helping her overcome it.
Joyce could grow into a powerful bridge to the fundies back home. I understand. Roz’s frustration in the moment, but hopefully Roz will realize that this alienation is a dumb move for Roz’s bigger cause.
Oh, she will get serious blowback for trying that, which is why she needs all the support she can get. Not because she necessarily deserves it, but because it’s of strategic interest.
Yeah… I agree what Roz is doing is definitely the smartest thing to do, but I really understand where she’s coming from. Even though she’s not a lesbian or a trans girl, she has still been shamed for her sexuality, and by Joyce herself nonetheless, and she seems keenly aware of patriarcal oppression in general. It’s a good thing Leslie is here to moderate her and protect Joyce, but I can’t bring myself to blame an angry teenager for telling the truth to a clueless one, even if it is in this abrasive way.
You’re not wrong, but that minority can’t be ignored. I don’t think that you are saying they should be, but I personally feel that comments saying, “we’re not all like that!” distract from the issue. I’m sure you didn’t mean it to do that, but such comments come across to me as needlessly defensive.
It’s not a “we’re not all like that” comment, but it is defensive.
In this case, defending Joyce. Her alignment with religion does not automatically put her in the same catagory as those who kick gay kids out of the house.
Saying “Roz is right, but…” is doing more damage than good, because Roz ISN’T right. If you want to actually focus on the issue, focus on THE ISSUE, and don’t alienate people who would be your allies by putting them into the same catagory as your enemies.
But her Church is, and up until the latest turn of events, Joyce’s primary mode of operation has been blind obedience. And that’s a very harmful choice, and is really what Roz is angry about.
Let me put it this way–you think this is the first time some kid in Joyce’s church suddenly stopped attending and no one really talked about why, because it was too uncomfortable to explain that the kid was now living in a refrigerator carton in Indianapolis?
I wouldn’t even say it’s the wrong reason. But, yeah, you were someone’s kid, too. Before politician X had a child who was homosexual, other people had stories to share that they would have been glad to share with politician X. There were lobbyists just for that effort, don’t you know.
The opportunities to get the same education on this topic, that politician X didn’t get until politician X’s own child became that education, existed and, in fact, were eager to avail themselves of politician X. Politician X wouldn’t have had to make much of an effort. In fact, Politician X would only have had to stop the effort to refuse such an education.
So, it’s not a bad reason… it’s just a late reason, a very late reason. Better than never, but still very late.
Problem is, we are quite good at filtering out information that runs contrary to our views. Very hard to filter out your own son or daughter, though – although some still manage.
On the last point, I agree completely. It’s just that I take a pragmatic view towards changing minds – we need to use tactics that work when the end result is so important to achieve (in my mind).
To be fair to Joyce though she’s hardly a politician or a clergy member. She’s an 18 year old kid raised by a pair of nutjobs IMO. I understand why Roz is hurt; I never came out to my father for fear of being tossed out. But turning on the more or less powerless Joyce is kicking a puppy for the actions of a dog, so to speak.
This can be boiled down to human nature. We are very resistant to ideas that run counter to our beliefs. We will automatically search for evidence that supports our beliefs, and automatically scrutinize evidence that runs counter to our beliefs. This is known as confirmation bias.
Yes, confirmation bias can be overcome, but not easily.
not really, her outburst seems more emotional than satisfied: she’s angry at Joyce for holding such hurtful beliefs. But remember how she reacted when she got the impression Joyce had went through something terrible at the party? She immediately gave her contacts to seek help, while not asking any inconsiderate questions – a smart and compassionate thing to do.
Indeed, she’s not wrong, but her condescension is still, well, condescension.
In this situation, how is she any better than the faith-based support group for the homeless who turn away LGBT youths? Here we have Joyce coming to terms with how a lot of people who share her religion end up using it to treat people terribly, and instead of being supportive, she shuns Joyce away with a “you should’ve had your epithany sooner!”.
I’m not a fan of Roz here either, but I’m not sure “she’s just as bad as people who leave kids on the street for having a non-normative sexuality or gender!” is the best argument…?
No, she’s not on board with it. To Joyce, God is a loving entity. She’s been hit headfirst with the growing divide between what she has been taught is right and wrong, and what she personally believes.
Roz is being harsh, yes. I have the sinking feeling that she is not being nearly as harsh as what Joyce is hearing in her own head right now– or what David Willis heard in his, when he went through this crisis.
There’s a part of me that wonders if it’s less a personal interest that makes Joyce take this stance so much as a realization that faith-based charities don’t take a ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ approach to things (which has always been more Joyce’s style).
I think what’s been going on has been a part of Joyce’s gradual understanding that “love the sinner, hate the sin” (or “hate the sin, not the sinner” which is how I recall that usually being phrased) still involves hate, which is why it’s not really a good option for anyone who would call themselves a God-loving Christian.
Right now I think she’s focusing on Becky. Give her some time, and she may realize that “hate the sin, not the sinner” is nothing but a smokescreen to allow the “righteous” to feel good about hating people who aren’t like them.
I see Roz’s point quite clearly, though she is being cruel to make it here and now. Truth is, the hard-hitting, god-hates-fags homophobes are getting rarer and more fringe. But there are a lot of people like Joyce out there who think homosexuality is a sin and gay people can be “fixed”. Let’s not forget that she is still in a relationship with a gay man she entered with the intent to do just that. People like Joyce aren’t out there committing hate crimes, but they do cause harm. She needs to realize this, and Roz may be ripping off the band-aid by doing it this way. Of course, that might backfire spectacularly.
Let’s not forget the gay boyfriend she’s trying to “fix” implied to her that he WANTS to be “fixed.” He’s as much a party to their relationship as Joyce is.
Although to be fair, it was a bit stronger than implying. It may never have been said strait out (PUN RECOGNITION FORBIDDEN), he got pretty close to saying “Joyce, I don’t want to be like this. Please fix me.”
Verb-tense difference there, that active discrimination is in the present for the “faith-based” organizations, but was only tangential for Joyce and us now in the past. Roz is not wrong for expressing what many are thinking, just expressing it in the wrong way.
Nuh-huh. Joyce was clearly on board with the “hate the sin, love the sinner train”… which is a terrible, hurtful train, even if if DOES allow you to give shelter to homeless teens of all orientations. Roz is too angry to be nice or even considerate here, but she is a 100% right
Roz’s reaction is… pretty much mine. I’m having a hard time sympathizing with Joyce given Ethan. >.> And I get that she’s learning and I appreciate that. I just don’t have the time or energy to deal with “hate the sin, love the sinner” because @&#% that nosie.
Joyce isn’t the only guilty party where Ethan is concerned. Remember that Ethan desperately wants to receive what Joyce wants to give. She’s providing a comfortable lie that he craves.
The thing is, Joyce hasn’t changed. She still feels the exact same way about every other issue she has been taught about, and if Becky suddenly stopped being gay, she would suddenly stop caring about that issue too.
This is purely a selfish lie that Joyce is telling herself, and therefore merits being called out.
Note: Joyce is still against pre-marital hanky panky. Apparently, she hasn’t realized that means that she is still against the active homosexual lifestyle.
I have a feeling that now the dam has burst, she’s not going to stop caring about homosexuality. Yes, she still has a long way to go for her other view points, but now that Leslie has pointed out the trouble the LGBT+ community has at the hands of the Church, and it has had it’s effect, I don’t think she’ll drop it any time soon, regardless of what happens next.
Didn’t you know? You’re not REALLY gay unless you’ve boned someone of the same sex. Your thoughts, feelings and emotional attachments to others don’t matter – it’s all about the BUTTSECKS. (Or pussysecks without dicks involved. Whichever. :p)
Thing is, acting like Roz is here Does Not Help Anything. What you get here is not people realizing “oh I was being stupid and should stop being stupid”, you get people coming to the realization that someone who calls you stupid is mean, and you should ignore them no matter how right anything they say might be.
Joyce isn’t stupid, she’s ignorant–a mushroom: she’s been kept in the dark and fed shit. When her environment changed she learned. But no props for ignorant kids who learn!! Chastise them for their former ignorance!! I hope you aren’t a professional teacher.
as a fomer kid who was kept in the dark but had a sharp eye i am in the perfect place to chastise her but people would deny me my right for thier own satisfaction
I didn’t realize that anti-gay organizations are acting out of hurt or rage at having been deeply wronged by gays. I mean ACTUALLY wronged not “your very existence offends me”. Given who Roz is, it’s very likely she personally knows people who have been hurt by people like Joyce, if she hasn’t herself.
What the actual shit is wrong with you. Why would you think ‘person who is tactless to someone having a personal epiphany literally decades behind the rest of society, which is also pretty shit by the way’ is on the same level with ‘literally tearing families apart and costing lives.’
Roz, while being harsh and its inappropriate to do this in a college classroom, is in the right. However, roz isn’t tossing Joyce out into the street! She’s saying “YOU were involved and had an ACTIVE voice in the very things you are now denouncing, you can’t separate yourself so easily”. That doesn’t make her some horrible person. It’s harsh, but its true.
Throwing that back in Joyce’s face solves nothing, though. She’s lucky that Joyce has Becky to fall back on: absent a real person with real suffering to pin this on, in the face of this kind of fairly direct attack most people I know would fall back and double down on their original position. It’s scary and uncomfortable feeling wrong and the easiest way to ease that discomfit is to revert to whichever position is most obviously “right”. And who would seem more right, with no Becky around? Her friends, her family, her pastor, her “ex-gay” boyfriend, or the rude person tearing her down in the middle of what was supposed to be a safe space?
While she’s not wrong it was also something that didn’t need to be said, Joyce had a just demonstrated that she understood, she realised what was important and what was horribly wrong. This was Roz kicking her while she was down for no reason other than to fee her own sense of arrogance. After all, if Roz cared so much why didn’t she make these exact points to Joyce weeks ago?
But we’re ALL assholes, to some extent. Joyce comes from a more conservative background; that she is learning is all one can ask for. She’s not a monster, either. She’s a good person, ultimately.
Some of the awesomest trans* activists I know grew up self-loathing (At least one of them has a story about arguing against marriage). Some of us managed to dodge that bullet, but that was LUCK, not righteousness.
Also, the purpose of a call-out is to end the behavior that hurts others. Roz basically just calls someone out AFTER she realized the behaviour was harmful. Not terribly productive! Also, yelling at Dorothy is bullshit.
That said, I kind of empathize with Roz here. Joyce WAS the church up until yesterday, and of course she doesn’t realize that yet. Of course, she will, with due time. But she doesn’t yet.
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The thing about Dorothy is, Roz isn’t wrong. Dorothy HAS been enabling Joyce this whole time, and coddling Joyce *isn’t* helping her.
Joyce *doesn’t* deserve a standing slow clap for finally figuring out she’s been passively part of the problem. She needs to have that point driven into her thick ass skull while there’s a crack formed in her “Jesus loves me this I know” armor plating. Before she seals it back up and the truth just clangs off it again.
Was she more hostile then she should have been? Sure. But Joyce has been “La la la”ing so hard I can’t imagine anyone who hasn’t been part of her inner circle is willing to put up with her.
She’s probably just a less vicious Mary to everyone not a main character.
But no one is giving Joyce a standing ovation; no one is calling Joyce a hero. Roz is really just saying “oh, Joyce, you realize how much your brand of Christianity has harmed others? Instead of moving forward and doing good with that realization, or instead of being encouraged to make more realizations like that, how about you stew in all the negative things that you really had not choice in the matter of believing in, because you were literally never exposed to anything else.”
I was raised in really anti-gay places, and my dad was really anti-anything except straight and cis. But my turning point? It was during the whole Arther/ Buster Bunny show, where the guest star was a girl with two moms. And there was a whole huge “controversy” about them being on a kids show, and one of the moms on the new was like “I feel like they are saying I’m somehow inhuman” and my dad said a sarcastic “*somehow* inhuman?” And I was like, “You know what? She looks pretty human to me!” And then I got the sh*t beat out of me. But up until then, I had been told that gay people *were* wrong, and *were* less than human, and I literally had no gay people to compare this to and see if it was false. I had parents who I was supposed to be able to trust tell me this stuff. And my punishment for disagree was physical, compared to Joyce’s emotional, but punishment in the form of emotional estrangement from God is a very real thing for her. If you’re going to be an activist, you have to understand that people on “the other side” aren’t always evil and hellbent on “my way or the highway”; they literally think that being gay somehow brings the devil into our homes. They have been taught and conditioned this and in some cases had it beaten in to us, be it physically or emotionally. And a lot of people don’t get an “Aha” moment like I did. Joyce just had her aha moment, and slammed her down. Joyce is a strong character, but I have seen slammings like lead to suicide. Mental dissonance is not an easy thing to deal with, and Dorothy is doing good by being “an atheist, not an asshole,” as she put it, which, to Joyce, was something impossible up until a month ago in comic time. Roz is being the “evil scary liberal” that Joyce has been conditioned to fear.
I’m sure if Roz hadn’t piped up, someone would have started a slow clap. at least in here by now.
Roz is being a jerk yes. But Roz is also PISSED.
Maybe if Joyce hadn’t been.. you know.. trying to panky away the gay on Ethan, I’d be less on Roz’s side here. I’d be more “Damn, Joyce didn’t deserve to be hit over the head with that so hard Roz.”
But.. you know, she did do the thing. As hurtful as it is to hear.
There are times you can coddle people, and there are times when it’s useless to coddle them anymore, and force them to put on their big girl pants and wake the hell up to how they have been acting.
Because if you NEVER challenge them, if you’re supportive and nice and head patting and there-there’ing them *all* the time? There is a bigger chance that they never leave the basement of their belief structure, and just make excuses while never putting the work in to grow into a better person.
In this case, yeah, absolutely. Roz’s technique results in an embarrassed and scared Joyce who won’t readily risk opening up her mind to new ideas. For somebody interested in winning hearts and minds, Roz’s approach is pretty aggressive, abrasive, and unpleasant.
Why doesn’t it matter? It completely matters. Joyce seriously needs to realize this and face it. She is still dating a gay guy with the sole purpose of changing his sexuality! If her best friend hadn’t come out to her, I bet her response to this reveal would have been “The church wants to rehabilitate those poor, misguided people? That’s so wonderful! I’m so glad those kids are getting the help they need!”. 24 hours ago she literally was the very church she is now decrying.
It’s going to hurt like hell, but she NEEDS to face this. Maybe this isn’t the right time, but Roz is doing the same thing Joyce just did- making an emotional outburst about something that clearly upset her. I’m actually quite annoyed that Joyce was allowed to disrupt the class like that, but Roz is being removed. Joyce just attacked an entire, major religion that other people in the class belong to. If she hadn’t been Christian, would she have been allowed to say that?
Why IS Joyce lauded for attacking people and disrupting the class, while Roz is in the wrong for it?
The difference in the situations is that Joyce is angry with “The Church” / specific Institutions that she is reacting to the information she’s just been given; she’s angry but not attacking anyone. Roz though is talking explicitly about Joyce and is attacking her earlier “lack of anger”.
Leslie said they are to talk about the material and not each other. Roz is only talking about Joyce and refuses to stop that’s why she is told to leave.
Oh, as much empathy as I and some others here have for Roz’s position, I agree that Leslie not only has the right to have her leave, she has the responsibility. Just because Joyce may have needed to hear this in some form, doesn’t mean she needed to hear it right now, in this setting.
Roz is rightfully pointing out that Joyce is divesting herself of responsibility. Joyce is saying the church shouldn’t, but ignoring the fact that she was part of that church and supported that church right up until it clashed with her life experience. Joyce is re-writing her personal history, failing to admit to her part in past social pressures and bigotry. She is a hypocrite.
In this instance, Joyce is the material. She is part of the problem.
In this specific instance Joyce is not the material as they were being taught about how some organizations threat LGBT+ youths. Joyce is not an organization or running one. Leslie also explicitly states that the students are not part of the material, at that point both Dorothy and Roz should not have continued talking about Joyce during the class.
The only thing I will say about who is right and wrong in this situation is this: Dorothy and Roz are wrong for continuing to talk about Joyce after Leslie explicitly says “We talk about the material not each other”.
Joyce expressed anger towards an institution, and was responded to with an attack on herself. allowing a classroom where a student is allowed to personally attack another student is pretty much the worst way to run a class, and Leslie is a better teacher then that.
No, she wasn’t. Bear in mind that while she is dating Ethan specifically to change him, this is change that he visibly seeks and help he encourages. Ethan doesn’t want to be gay and in doing so reinforces her naive belief that she’s helping him.
Joyce was “part of the church” until literally ANY alternative was offered to her.
I think it did need to be said. Even though she accepted Becky and she’s majorly conflicted about what she’s doing to Ethan, she has yet to recognize her complicity in the oppression she’s railing against. Joyce has actively participated in the oppression of queer people, and even if her attitudes and reactions are a byproduct of the belief system in which she was raised, until she recognizes that she is wrong, she won’t change. Not really.
But now there’s more to Ethan and Joyce than just the anti-gay thing. Ethan and Joyce have a sort of deal Joyce would have to break, which both Joyce and Ethan are worried about hurting him. So instead of giving Joyce a way out, Ethan currently has Joyce stuck trying to go both ways at once.
I don’t even think Roz is an asshole. I have been calling church-girl despicable since she started helping Ethan stay in the closet. Little Miss Judgmental deserves a public reaming for her behavior.
“church-girl” has known literally nothing else for her entire life. it has been less than a month for her exposure to a larger world. shafting her for the opinions forced on her in childhood that she is finally realizing were wrong, at this point in time, is going to do more harm than good.
Roz is being a dick. You can be right and still be a dick. Don’t be a dick.
Shrug, you can still like the comic while not caring much about Joyce’s ongoing deprogramming.
Other stuff I like:
Amazigirl
Walky and Sal’s friendship
Walky and Joyce bickering
Mike being Mike
Joe’s usually pretty amusing
Ruth and Billie in any context other than psychosexual suicide pact mode
It’s a pretty large strip, with a bunch of stuff going on, and Willis is pretty good about bouncing around the focus. I can roll my eyes at Joyce saying “hanky panky you, church!” while still enjoying the rest.
Yup, because when someone believes things that you feel are harmful, the lesson you want them to learn is that there is no point in ever changing those beliefs. Because you will never forgive them for what they used to believe. Because if they try and change their ways, try and stop being harmful and start being helpful they will gain no friends from it. All they’ll do is wind up hated by both sides of the issue where before they at least had a community they could belong to.
Really, is the lesson that when you find you’ve been believing something shitty that the best decision is to double down and keep holding to those beliefs because there can be no redemption the one you want people to learn?
Yeah. I understand Roz’s frustration, but she’s jumping down Joyce’s throat just as Joyce is finally getting it, and that’s a really stupid move for Roz’s bigger purpose. Winning human rights needs to be way more important than being the most righteous person in the room at a given moment, you know?
You’re right, Roz is putting her personal hurt feelings before Joyce’s growth. It’s not the smartest thing to do, but I get why a teenager might have a hard time keeping her temper under check when confronted whith unwittingly harmful ignorance such as Joyce. Thankfully, Leslie is here to bring balance and provide a safe learning environment, yay for Leslie! The world needs an almighty Leslie
I take it a different way, in that Roz is hammering in the “This is YOU.. not *just* the church. *YOU* were part of this, and you need to understand and own it and not just throw the blame at someone else to make yourself feel better.”
Joyce is learning.. but she’s STILL got her head up her ass and can’t see her own bullshit. And Roz is rightly sick and tired of people enabling people like joyce.
yeah. And obviously it can’t be easy to unlearn what was THE TRUTH for a lifetime. But she’s STILL DOING IT. Maybe it set her soul at ease to do the research and come to the conclusion that “probably being gay isn’t a sin” but it hurt Becky when she found out.
Where is Rocketboy1313 saying there’s no point in trying to change her beliefs? Where is it saying that Roz doesn’t believe Joyce will ever change? Who says she’s never going to forgive her? IN THE MOMENT, she’s frustrated and very very angry at Joyce, who has taken eighteen years to realize that lgbt are oppressed by things she’s dogmatically believed. Have you never had a situation where you weren’t ready to forgive someone the very second they were remorseful?
The last line is leading things that way, but she starts by discounting Joyce’s realization. And the context of the whole thing, starting in on her the moment she really starts showing that she’s changing her views?
This whole thing looks like someone who’s taking a dig at someone they don’t like when they’re vulnerable and easy to hit. And that’s just as likely to lead to an emotional rejection of that change as it is to hammer home any “truth” here.
Joyce “continues” her behavior with Ethan? You know her beliefs are changing THIS VERY MOMENT right? How would she have stopped doing the bad thing BEFORE realizing why it was bad exactly?
Joyce doesn’t believe people “deserve” to be made to suffer by other people. You disagree. That’s fair enough, but (weird as it is to say this) I’m with Joyce on this one.
Ethan wants to be in the closet, man. As far as she can tell, she’s doing him a favor. Heck, as far as HE can tell, she’s doing him a favor. Literally the only gay person she knew is supporting a belief given to her by people she loves and trusts.
It’s not a good situation, but it’s not like she’s the only person responsible and frankly reaming her out does nothing but give the a-hole reaming her out a few sparkling moments of holier-than-thou smugness.
Eh, Roz is kinda wrong, here. I mean, this is word-picking a bit, but an epiphany, by definition, is a major change in one’s personal views. But even ignoring that:
Someone moving towards your side is a good. It increases the good in the universe. In this case, it’s an increase in good without any downside at all. This is Roz freaking out because someone has started supporting her.
Now, Roz’s points aren’t incorrect, but the question is why saying them at this point in time is of any use to anyone.
I’m pretty sure Roz’s harsh words will act as a catalyst here: while Joyce is on the right path, hearing this probably forces her to confront all the stuff she yet HASN’T aknoledged is hurtful… such as her wishing to “cure” Ethan.
I dunno, stuff like standing up against your fundamentalist Christian parents on behalf of your atheist friend and openly accepting and supporting your recently outed homosexual friend qualify as a few steps in my book.
She’s not really doing much to try and cure him, though. If anything, Joyce clings to Ethan because he’s safe, not because he’s a religious conversion project. Joyce is still working through her trauma, and whacking her upside the head with a bunch of angry rhetoric really isn’t helping her.
If she wasn’t a powder keg of trauma concerning male sexual attention, that point would have a bigger meaning.
While she’s not actively trying to panky away his gay, that’s because she’s not able to get near hankyland without having a panic attack.
Kinda throws a wrench into anything she would have done with Ethan (if she even WOULD have gotten with Ethan) without the trauma steering her into his snuggly gay arms.
Or, if Becky didn’t exist to balance Joyce’s beliefs (and Roz doesn’t know about Becky) it could shatter her confidence in her new worldview and make her retreat into herself to rationalize, which is what most real people do when they’re challenged. Nobody likes being wrong. Being declared wrong for failing to have found the correct answer quickly enough for an arbitrary and cruel judge even less so.
Roz is rightfully pointing out that Joyce is divesting herself of responsibility. Joyce is saying the church shouldn’t, but ignoring the fact that she was part of that church and supported that church right up until it clashed with her life experience. Joyce is re-writing her personal history, failing to admit to her part in past social pressures and bigotry. She is a hypocrite.
Using the truth to make someone else feel horrible despite already having learned the necessary lesson to make oneself feel smug and superior is the fuck.
Look, you know why people in cities tend to be liberal? It’s not because cities are inherently better. It’s because they are exposed to people who are different than them and come to realize that the commonalities outweigh the differences. Joyce is learning that right now before our eyes. Getting pissed that she’s not doing it fast enough or that she shares some beliefs with whatever Christian pissed in your cereal one to many times doesn’t make you any more right than she is. Is just makes you look like you’re carrying a lot of bitterness, justified or not.
Really? You can’t just give Joyce a little time to adjust? Seriousy, it’s like you want her to change her views overnight. Scientist don’t even do that! Scientists still take time to change their minds, and they do it only after multiple tests of their preconceived notions. Now don’t get me wrong, Scientists do change their minds when they are wrong. But you can’t expect a christian girl trained not to even consider these ideas to change her mind faster than someone who has trained him or her self to evaluate the data and draw conclusions from the data itself, even if it requires a change in mindset.
Seconded. For Joyce, her Bible was valid data and a life philosophy. Her philosophy is changing to “My friends matter more than my beliefs,” whether that’s defending Dorothy or standing up for Becky — but she won’t change overnight.
No, but of all societal groups, scientists most require that level of objectiveness, and the ones who would be most often confronted with the data which requires them to change their opinions.
Also, if Scientists take longer while acting like humans, and Joyce is STILL within the expected time-frame for scientists not acting like humans, then I’d say that’s even stronger of a point.
But its a bat that only hurts those who know the truth. Those who are in denial feel nothing. So its a weapon that only hurts the very people you don’t want to hurt.
All it takes is a little bit of money and your own design. I know a student who had T-shirts made for everyone in our O-chem class willing to pay for one. Wasn’t too expensive, actually.
…Or no money if it’s someone else asking you to do it. In fact, it’s an easy way to earn money if the design is popular (and if creating the design is easy, I guess), now that everyone can use RedBubble or CafePress or whatever. Hell, Spencer’s has a one-off slogan shirt printer app you can use right on their site if you want something quick and dirty.
This might have had more impact if we had seen how Joyce acted in the past 4 weeks. Like was she just passive? Or did she try and ‘splain the church’s motivations?
This is very true, I think; both Roz and Mary are absolutely sure that they know everything, that their opinions are perfect and unassailably correct, that they’ve earned that high horse they climbed up on. They are equally wrong about those things.
Roz’s opinions are better opinions, but they don’t make her less full of knee-jerk hate and spite.
I know a lot of SJ people on tumblr. That is one of the reasons I am there so much now. Hell, my tumblr has a pretty fair bit of SJ on it (lots of cats and computers and anime too, but that’s beside the point).
Well, I’ve seen some using it entirely as a way to win arguments, feel righteous about themselves, and pour out all the hatred and negativity inside them onto acceptable targets. Which, IMO, is both bad and very very human.
Breaking out of the cycle of hating and “othering” entirely is, still IMO, a lot harder. Most people aren’t really interested.
Huh. I don’t know anything about tumblr. I’m familiar with fighting for actual social justice in the real world. Looks like social justice means something really really different on the Internets, huh.
depends on what part of tumblr you are on. Virtually all the people I know there are pro-SJ, some are more vocal than others, of course. But all are good people. Yeah there are some parts that overreact, and act badly, but it is hardly universal.
Oh, sorries. Ignore my rant below. Obviously I was speaking of internet speak “social justice”, rather than that which encompasses irl events, political lobbying, etc
Social Justice Warriors, or SJW’s, is generally used to refer to the sorts of people who spend more time shaming and attacking easy targets then actually doing something meaningful to contribute to actual change. Like, reblogging something somebody disagreed with and telling all your friends to spam their blog telling them to kill themselves. On the extreme end, this has resulted in folks who doxx somebody for having a blog they disagree with then inundate said doxx’d person with actual death threats.
Like many terms on the internet, it gets overused to the point where it’s applied where it is entirely invalid, but that’s where the term came from and how it differentiates between people with an actual interest in social justice.
well actually I hate to be that guy but there are certain advantages to being a tall dude. you are more likely to be a CEO, more likely to get a date, etc. etc. I mean I’m a 5′ 4″ girl so I’m not to sure on the details, but my boyfriend is 6′ 5″ and he’s mentioned multiple times how much he gets treated differently (positively) due to being tall.
The social justice movement has a lot of great ideas, but too often does its modus operandi look like Roz’s here. I realise that not everybody who’s into SJ is like this, but there are enough that the whole movement’s been painted with that brush. And that’s unfair, but I’m not sure that people acting like Roz are coincidental. Even the term itself: it’s “social justice” as in criminal “justice”. And justice demands people be punished for their wrongdoings, even if it helps the cause not at all on a practical level. IMO, the whole thing should be about educating, providing opportunities and support – raising everybody up, rather than trying to tear down the people at the top of the social pyramid. And I’ve seen too many people chewed out for their ignorance, too many people brutally harassed, too many people have their opinions totally dismissed for me to believe that the social justice movement isn’t about bringing people down.
Actually… no. “Justice” does not demand punishment for wrongdoings, it demands redress for wrongdoings–it demands making things right. Lifting every one up is a lovely sentiment, but it requires resources, effort, patience and time. And it requires these things from the people who have the most to spare–those ‘on the top of the pyramid’. There’s far too many folks who take the attitude that once you make active discrimination illegal, we should instantly be in a post-racist, post-sexist, etc. society. It doesn’t work like that, though. The acknowledgement of wrongdoing–that’s the first, tiny, baby step towards actually solving the problem.
Social justice (which has a couple of completely unrelated definitions, but never mind) is a good things.
Some of the people who advocate for social justice are assholes, just as with everything else. Well-intentioned fanatics and purists (“extremism in the pursuit of virtue is no vice”), or people who enjoy feeling superior to other people, or other types.
Whether SJ issues are more attractive of such assholes than knitting, say, I don’t know; I hear knitting sites can have some pretty hot flamewars.
OK. So what do we know about Roz? She actively participates in planned parenthood and distributes free condoms to her peers, (in a dignified costume no less). When she learned that the girl who slut-shamed her had had a hard time at her party, she immediately came to her and offered the smartest kind of help possible: contacts for counselling. Without asking any questions. She is an angry teen so she snapped at Joyce’s small step forward, that’s uncool. IMO, she’s a useful activist that puts her effort and time where her mouth is, and here she lost her temper.
And I’d like to add that people who take this as an occasion to laugh at “SJW” really don’t seem to have their priorities straight: really, you think people who are over-eager to denounce a crooked system are the ones your mockery should be targeting? THIS is what is worthy of your scorn? Not, like, the rich old white dudes running your country, trying to ban abortion, and fighting to protect laws that make it LEGAL to murder a trans woman?
I KNOW!!! It’s like “Where am I going to get my news now?” I sure as frell can’t turn to CNN or FOX because neither of them have journalistic standards. My options become British Broadcasting and PBS. Worst part is – when I feel morally ill from a news event, no one is going to help make me feel better right after and/or during the delivery. 🙁
I’m going to need some sort of evidence to even remotely believe this… as far as I know murder is murder regardless of the sexual orientation, gender, etc… of the person murdered…
It’s the trans panic defense. It basically goes “I was so freaked out when i found out she was trans that i killed her.” It’s a legal defense in many states and because of it many people get away with killing trans people.
Roz won’t teach anything to Joyce. She waited until after Joyce had got the message to even mention anything on the subject. This is just Roz, again, pulling her arrogant ‘I know everything I need to about this class already’ crap. Only this time instead of arguing with the teacher she’s harassing another student.
Another student that she led to an event that resulted in an emotionally scarring experience and was completely ignorant of what transpired until the next day despite being there and writing it off as some buzz kill moment of the party prior to finding out the involved parties. And seeming to have forgotten that now.
Yep. Roz invited Joyce to that party so that she could “learn something,” and now she’s complaining about Dorothy staying silent and letting ignorance continue. Maybe your teaching methods aren’t the best, Roz. Let Leslie take care of it.
Actually, Roz invited Dorothy and Dorothy “invited” Joyce (really, Joyce invited herself and Dorothy went along with it). The first time Roz heard of it was when Dorothy explained why drunk Billie was hanging on her.
Why has anyone forgotten that Roz’s FIRST reaction when she learned that Joyce had been through “something” was to offer counseling contacts without further asking any questions? And this was AFTER Joyce had slut-shamed her because her “flower” had no petals left… When Roz first talked about “a fight” she had no idea what had happened, or how Joyce was concerned. Sure she’s harsh, but she’s not as mean as you paint her.
Neither is Joyce. As for shaming someone over their chosen lifestyle, Roz was perfectly happy to do that right back at Joyce in this comic. She has no moral high ground here. At best she can say she is as bad as Joyce on the opposite end of the spectrum. Personally, and perhaps due to the fact that we’ve seen evidence that Joyce at least is evolving out of what Roz is complaining about her being…I think Joyce is much better than Roz. As a character and as a person.
So basically, Joyce improving is going to be met with more critique of how she used to be and no encouragement for the person she could be in the future? No. Just no. That would be the most effective way of stopping progress before it’s even started.
I’m not. I’ve had the day Leslie’s having. Being a teacher in that situation (or similar) sucks.
Unless that isn’t what you meant, in which case nevermind.
I’m betting it’s zero. I also ‘enjoy’ how she assumed that Joyce has personally denied LGBT people respect and shelter. Considering that both times an LGBT person has come to Joyce requesting help, she’s unstintingly and unhesitatingly given it the best she could, I’d actually say that ‘the church’ was never her.
Not that Roz cares about facts or context, when there’s a way to pat herself on the back for being so very openminded.
I could be remembering wrong, but I’m also pretty sure the only time those two have argued before, it had nothing to do with gender issues but rather about pre-marital sex. All of Joyce’s dealings with Bi and Lesbian type stuff have been happening when Roz hasn’t been around.
Had this been the topic they’d had the huge fight about, it might make some sense. But this feels more like Roz is using Joyce being devout and a little fundie in order to assume that she has all of the worst traits fundamentalists tend to have.
Is it possible that Roz might have heard the loud argument with Amber in the busy cafeteria about Joyce trying to ‘cure’ Ethan? Because that wouldn’t scream respectful or helpful.
Given how Becky’s parents reacted, how often do you think that a teenager or young adult was just ‘disappeared’ from their church, and their peers were simply encouraged to never even try to contact them again? I’m willing to bet it’s more than once every ten years, which means it’s very likely that at least one other ‘friend’ of Joyce’s IS living on the street, and Joyce never questioned it.
you don’t have to specifically offer shelter to criticize a group for denying it to others, not to mention she might not have the means to do that (especially not now, living in a college dorm). roz has clearly shown herself to be dedicated to social activism and has proven it in other ways.
Roz works for planned parenthood, distributes condoms to her peers. Discreetly offered the girl who openly shamed her for sleeping around some helpful counselling contacts when she realised she might need them.
As wonderful as it is that Joyce is growing as a person, it’s not some astounding development for everyone else. Joyce’s battle with her prejudices are hers alone, and is ultimately meaningless in the face of the horror that countless youths have faced for years.
Roz is being an asshole, but she’s right, in a way.
As wonderful as it is that this illiterate woman has learned to read, it’s not some astounding development for anyone else. Her battle with her ignorance is hers alone, and is ultimately meaningless in the fact of the illiteracy that countless humans have faced for years.
A success is a success IMO, and never meaningless. When someone rises above what life has tried to give them it’s a good thing whether or not what they’ve done is commonplace.
It’s not meaningless to Joyce. It’s vitally important to her, and how she will view the world and the people around her. But it’s unimportant to the rest of the class, let alone Roz, who’s had to hear from her how enjoying sex has defiled her soul, and has actively held these views for years now. Why should Roz be happy that, finally, Joyce has seen the light? Why should Joyce even have to learn in the first place?
Heck, the idea that the epiphany might be a common one is even more valuable here. After all, this may be a basic, simple observation that a lot of people for a variety of reasons have already gotten.
But this is Gender Studies 101. This is, in fact, the proper place to go over the basic facts. This is the place to have the common epiphanies if you have not already had them. Hell, I would not be surprised to find out that Leslie gets a lot of enjoyment out of teaching this class because this is the best place for her to get people to understand what it’s like and to change things for the better.
hmhmh… an illiterate woman is not (even unwillingly) part of a powerful machine that discriminates, humiliates and alienates minorities, directly and indirectly driving them to severe depression, homelessness and even suicide. However pure at heart, this is what Joyce has been doing for years: being an unknowing part of a vicious and powerful ideological machine. Sure she probably scarcely said anything mean, but we did see her tell Ethan and Mike that homosexuality is a sin, which is a truly harmful stance
Thing is, the only person talking about Joyce being a hero is Roz. No one was asking her to shower praise on Joyce. Everyone would probably have ignored Joyce’s outburst just as they ignore Joe, but *Roz* chose to make a big thing out of it.
I don’t know about ignoring. I assume the class has long since learned to ignore anything coming out of Joe, but Joyce attacking the church would certainly draw attention.
Joe just wants to get laid without dealing with deep emotional feelings. Roz acti8vely looks down and insults anyone who doesn’t agree with her, isn’t on her level or thinks they know better than her.
i’d like to point out that while Roz was totally in the wrong, she DID point out something Joyce didn’t realize. Joyce was the church, and while she realized the church was wrong, if Roz didn’t speak up she would’ve stayed as self-righteous as before.
I’m going to be honest, I think I actually agree with Roz, here. I mean, it’s nice that she had that epiphany and all, but it’s not like anyone should be praising Joyce for deciding to treat a subset of people with respect, finally.
Joyce openly slut-shamed Roz befcause of her damaged “flower”, and was perfectly happy telling Mike that homosexuality is a (hateful) sin. Now THAT’s disrespect, even if she did not know it
Because Joyce said something that Roz would feel heroic saying as an iconoclast. Roz frames Joyce’s behaviors in terms of her own actions and decides that what Joyce said was heroic but that she is not in fact a hero. In a way Roz is defending her brand.
Joyce didnt ask for praise and no one asked for her to be praised. It’s a classroom. She was learning and reacting to new information like a normal student.
A classroom is also not the place for Roz to mock two of her fellow students and cause a scene with personal attacks. I’ve gone to school with people who annoyed me and managed to keep it out of the classroom quite fine.
That’s true, Roz is not making this classroom a safe learning place, even if her reaction is perfectly justified. Leslie to the rescue!! (I want to see more Leslie. she makes everything feel safer in this comic)
This. Roz is right, Leslie is doing what is right. Two separate things.
Also, about ninety percent of the defense of Joyce I’ve been seeing in this thread really could be said about Roz’s outburst, as well. She’s just as much a product of her own homelife as Joyce is, and we’ve seen enough to have some idea of what’s driving her.
That certainly isn’t something to praise Joyce for.
What Joyce deserves respect and praise for is reevaluating her beliefs after she gained new insight and knowledge about the consequences of the beliefs she held.
As a college professor myself, I have to agree with this. In my view, college is where you learn who you are. Roz (and to a more quiet extent Joe) will have wasted their four years if they walk out as the exact same person they walked in as.
Except that she continues to try to avoid doing that. Instead, she spends up all night looking for a suitable re-interpretation of the Bible that will carve out a Becky Exemption while still making it totes okay to continue attempting to ‘convert’ Ethan.
Except her exception does clearly apply to Ethan, since she decided homosexuality wasn’t really a sin. We really haven’t seen how that is going to play out yet.
This has already been a process for Joyce. Her attitudes have already changed based on her interactions with Ethan. I doubt this is the end of the changes.
But that’s still it–it’s a pattern with Joyce’s judgements.
“I like this person. This person does something I’ve been taught (and have been telling others) is wrong. Since I like this person, my teachings must be wrong up to the limit necessary to make it okay for me to continue to associate with them.”
So Ethan got a Friendship Exemption. Dorothy got one, and now Becky’s gotten one.
When she stops issuing exemptions, and starts questioning the need for them, THEN I’ll be impressed with Joyce’s growth. Until then, she’s a good person causing a lot of unintentional pain.
Most people don’t reach a sudden epiphany in an entirely different direction after a lifetime of thinking otherwise. Cognitive dissonance does not lead to change so simply, and sometimes not at all.
Sooooo, how long ’til the class bursts into chaos?
Roz has a point, I’ll admit. And remember what platform her sister’s been elected on – she’s probably gone through some crap up to this point. Phrasing, though? Honey, you’re just bringing Joyce ever closer to her inevitable total breakdown.
There’s a lot of running gags in the show. One is Archer shouting ‘Phrasing’ after almost any double-entendre–in amusement in most cases, in anger when it is about his mom, whose ongoing sexual exploits are a never-ending source of discomfort (ranging all the way up to disgust at times).
Good point. Roz is saying this in a really assholish way (which, you know, given her roommate’s Mary and she knows Joyce and Mary are at least church acquaintances, I can see where she might suspect Joyce is an asshole too), riiiiight as Joyce is about to crack.
Not good class behavior either way. But since Roz has definitely been dealing with Mary and probably Robin, and since I suspect she may be bisexual or biromantic (or at least hasn’t ruled out the possibility she might be yet), I can see why she’s just about done with religion in general. Dick move on her part, but she doesn’t know Joyce very well and there’s only so much shaming you can take before you lash out. She shouldn’t be generalizing, but I can potentially see why.
In my experience, such people do not value or respect allies at all, except as a screen of “plausible deniability” which allows those who are part of the group, but not yet ready to come out about it, to avoid being identified. “Allies”, they declare, do not contribute anything else to the cause and should not be otherwise acknowledged or included.
That’s a little rough. They do appreciate allies but it’s hard when members of the community have their experiences discounted in favor of allies’ stories.
Wow, I’m surprised by these first few comments. I thought for sure it would be one big Roz cheering squad. I’m guessing it’s not the message, but rather the delivery that has people disliking her?
(I happen to be against message and delivery, but I doubt I’ll be going down that road in this comment section.) 😉
Well, except when Roz realizes that a scared and vulnerable peer has had an undefined bad experience at a party, and proceeds to give that peer the best advice she’s received from anyone, including all of her well-meaning friends, despite the fact that said peer slut-shamed Roz promptly after meeting her.
a) She is being an asshole. She is harassing Joyce for changing her views – she didn’t ask to be praised, she didn’t want to be seen as a hero. ROZ wants to be seen as a hero for preaching equality so she thinks Joyce does too now and she JUMPS on the opportunity to tear Joyce down for having different views before so that people won’t view her as favourably as someone who was always on the equality train.
b) She’s acting as if it is Dorothy’s job to forcibly change Joyce’s views to be the same as her own, to be ‘better’ than her current ones, which would not really be any different from when Joyce walked in and told off Joe for his premarital hanky-panky – it would be forcing your views on someone else still, but apparently that’s okay if it is your side forcing the views on others? Um, no, Roz is a hypocrite.
c) Worst of all, she is condemning Joyce for actions that she was never a part of personally as if she went out of her way regularly to throw LGBTA people out on the streets while Joyce is actually more of a ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ kind of person.
I agree with the UNDERLYING message that you aren’t a magical new person for a small epiphany, but that isn’t something you say to someone because it makes you an asshole that is bringing them down when they were actually growing and literally every other part of her message is completely wrong – it’s not wrong to change your mind because your situation has changed multiple times, it is wrong to force your views on someone else regardless of what they are about with few exceptions (children need you to override them with a ‘no, that’s wrong’ sometimes for instance, though you should also tell them why you think so instead of just shutting them down obviously), and no, you should not condemn individuals for the acts of other individuals as if they were actually aware of what those other individuals were doing before.
Seriously though, this is EXACTLY what Joyce needs right now. No pandering, no bullshit, just a straight-up confirmation that she isn’t nearly as nice or compassionate as she likes to think she is. This might even lead to the fabled Joyce breakdown that so many of us have been waiting for. One can only hope! 😀
Uh, no? This is Roz being a spiteful and vindictive asshole towards someone who has clearly just experienced a paradigm shift on her entire worldview.
What Joyce needs is support and calm, not someone directly accusing her of oppression through ignorance in the most hurtful way possible, regardless of how much of a point they have.
Joyce has had this coming for a LONG time now. I’m sick and tired of commenters here praising her *~compassion~* and *~selflessness~* when she’s been a judgmental, hypocritical asshole since day one. This is something she NEEDS to hear, no matter what form she hears it in. It’s plain and simple.
But people here are so rarely willing to call Joyce on her bullshit. I keep hearing “oh no, you don’t understand, she’s GOING to become a good character thereby we can excuse everything she does now!” in a way that no one seems to extend to oh, let’s say, Danny.
A bad person wouldn’t have allowed herself to be open to these possibilities. A bad person doesn’t allow the idea that they’re not the hero of their own story to enter their mind – Joyce is slowly getting that beaten into her head. She’s a good person, she’s simply been given a bad instruction book at such an early age that she has had, until this comic began, no other rubric by which to compare it.
Having been through what she’s going through, I’m inclined to cut her some slack.
What makes Joyce a good character is that she tries to do what she feels is right. Her intent matters. What also matters is that several times she’s sided with being kind, loyal, and loving over some of the beliefs she’s grown up with.
Is Joyce a deeply flawed character? Yes. Does she out of ignorance say terrible things? Yes. Is her world view not normal? Yes.
So you don’t think Mary believes she’s doing the right thing? There’s a reason “Intent isn’t magic” has become a mantra on the left–it’s because intent is used to excuse a great deal of really, really horrible shit.
Well my arguments are specific to Joyce, because she does appear to honestly love and care about others around her. These are generally characteristics that our society considers “good”.
So if I’m reading you right, people who have opposing views to yours (or those you disagree with) are bad people. That’s not a very productive stance to take.
When those views support and perpetuate the horrible oppression of entire segments of humanity then yeah they are bad people. Not because they disagree with me but because they disagree with basic morality.
Joyce loses sympathy from me when she encourages physical violence upon her date when he hadn’t even done anything wrong, much less the action that she was grossly overreacting to and helps a gay guy to get back in the closet and date him, thereby encouraging a relationship that solves nothing, makes no one happy, and just hurts all parties involved. There comes a point where you have to hold someone responsible for their actions.
Given your previous mention of him, I assume you’re a fan of Danny, right?
Because early on, that guy was a mopey, moralizing, vaguely misogynistic whiner who tried to get his girlfriend to give up her dreams, and then tried to ruin her new relationship to prove a point to himself.
Walky has been a prick sometimes, Dorothy had a tendency to be stuck up, Sal was dismissive to everybody who spoke to her, Billie was a total asshole whenever she felt like it. These are people, let alone college freshmen, and they are growing and learning about the world around them.
Joyce has grown up her whole life with the knowledge ingrained in her that gay people were awful and going to hell, and having met literally two of them, made a 180 on that and decided otherwise. I won’t ask you to like her, and it is deeply unfair to expect anybody to condone or forgive her actions, but they are what they are, and Joyce has shown a strong desire to change the viewpoints that clash with her desire to be a good person doing the right thing.
SPencer: The difference is that whereas most folks are willing to grumble about Danny, complain about Joe and rip into Sarah when they’re being complete jackasses (hell, “to Dan” has become a verb), Joyce gets a lot of passes for her upbringing–as if her upbringing were unique in shaping her. Roz is no less a product of her homelife–you know, the one where her older sister is now an extremely hypocritical politician who is perfectly willing to espouse horrible views (and, presumably, make equally horrible votes) in order to stay in office.
I can think of at least five characters in this webcomic who AREN’T let off the hook because of their “background”. Do we excuse Danny for what he’s done? Amber? Ruth? Mary? Sal? No we do not. Joyce is exempt because reasons. The hypocrisy infuriates me.
In answer to your “questions”:
Danny? No, but that’s because Willis hates him too
Amber? Yes, because Blaine is a Jerk
Ruth? Yes, because fan-favorite
Mary? No, because she is a jerk and, again, Willis-hate
Sal? Yes, because another fan-favorite.
Now, two out five isn’t so bad, but still! Only two out of five of your examples don’t get a free pass.
Sure we could side with Roz if she was guilting Joyce on say…. any of that. Roz is giving Joyce crap for not being on the side of angels in a timely fashion.
So Joyce isn’t being held accountable for any of that. Also a classroom is not a court, there is presumably a time and place for getting your accusations on.
I couldn’t disagree more. I know there’s a certain point at which you can’t blame your upbringing for your ignorance anymore, but I think Joyce deserves a little compassion. How does Roz berating her help anything? Maybe if she had spoken up like this before, but now she’s only tearing Joyce down when she’s finally making progress. You don’t fucking yell at someone for their past attitudes after they revoke them. That doesn’t help anyone.
Roz’s attitude here feels like someone yelling at an infant that just took their first step because they should already be running.
I think what bothers me the most is that Roz really knows nothing about Joyce as a person outside of her fundamentalist upbringing, and yet she still feels qualified to judge her.
This would be good for Joyce if it wasn’t in class, in front of everyone, in such a self righteous and angry way. If Roz had said the same thing outside after class in a flat sarcastic tone it would be sweet sweet medicine for Joyce. But that’s not really something Roz would do, that’s something Mike would do.
Thank you, Roz, for demonstrating one of the fundamental rules of human stupidity, namely, the probability of someone being stupid has nothing to do with any other quality that person has.
I’ve known people who would never have been willing to even recognize something like this, no matter what the cause was. The fact that Joyce was not only willing to, but actually went off on her own church, is a pretty good sign, in my opinion.
(And Crazy Dina… Combined?)
NO ROZ! YOU DON’T! YOU GIVE HER TIME TO PROCESS THE %#$@%# NEW INFORMATION! *pounds table*
This isn’t cool! Joyce has had nothing but epiphanies today, and this ISN’T a simple one. It requires going against things she’s been taught from birth, and she probably had no idea that there were those within her church that denied lesbians simple rights and protections! It’s different when the church appears to be trying to help these people, but when it becomes clear that it’s hurting people, like it was doing to Becky, that’s when Joyce’s attitude changed. No sooner, no later.
This is an important fact Roz seems to be missing – Joyce probably would have taken in Roz in a heartbeat if something happened that put her in trouble. She’d preach Roz’s head off, but she’d still take Roz in and protect her. But she would never in a million years to think to try to hurt any of these people. Her relationship with Ethan was based on what they thought they wanted and/or needed. Again, nothing more, nothing less. Were that to change, Joyce’s attitude would have as well.
It’s that simple. That neat. That easy.
Right. (Though Joyce’s motivations for dating Ethan are…also a little bit selfish.)
I can’t help but feel that Roz reacted similarly after the party, only to discover the context of Joyce’s actions and have a change of heart. Maybe discovering the truth of what’s up with Joyce will once again bring Roz back around.
Only if it can make Roz feel superior to Joyce. everything I’ve seen of Roz points to the fact that her acts of altruism have less to do with any empathy she has for others and more with her performing the roll she has chosen for herself (righteous morally evolved social crusader)
Yeah, the comic wasn’t condoning her actions. Roz was saying that “sex addiction” wasn’t a thing and got pretty huffy about it when Jacob insisted it was an issue for him, but the comic certainly never condoned her actions.
I mean, if nothing else, the results of the addiction and the effects on Jacob’s life (becoming a slovenly shut-in, affecting his job and other relationships) were never shown in a positive light.
I’m just grossed out that it even happened in the first place, and that later on I was supposed to view Roz sympathetically rather than as a total scumbag.
The comic didn’t treat it that way, hence why nobody else ever found out about it as it likely would have resulted in her getting kicked out and leaving the comic.
Joyce did make quite a display of her righteous indignation. Roz may have interpreted that as a bid for attention. An implicit request for praise.
Might not have taken issue quite the same way if she’d just overheard Joyce talking with some friends about how this information’s changing the way she thinks about the church, though who knows. Hard to say for sure. She and Joyce have kind of been at eachother’s throats since day 1.
I’m having a really hard time not sympathizing with Roz here, since I had the exact same reaction a few years ago about a once virulently homophobic preacher who changed his stance after his son came out. If it was literally anyone but his own son, he would’ve gleefully bullied him towards suicide, but since he managed to demonstrate a bare minimum of basic human decency to *his own son*, he’s a great progressive thinker.
I have a question. Did this person ever apologize? Did they admit that they were wrong, make any gestures of restitution, try to undo the damage they had done or help the people they had hurt? Or are they one of those J-holes who skips straight for asking forgiveness and blithely ignore the whole repentance part?
Yeah, all those socio-political powerhouses who change their opinion only after their shit effects them and their families personally kind of piss me off. I mean, I’m happy your son won’t be disowned and stuff, but maybe you could have had a little compassion for everybody else’s gay sons as opposed to just yours.
But, idk, it’s a matter of degrees. The homophobic preacher has actively spread his ignorant and hurtful beliefs for many years to the detriment of many families and people. Joyce was a minor until recently, and her ignorance probably hasn’t really created too much strife. The most of what she’s done is to Ethan, and I don’t think she messed with his head/self-esteem as much as allowed him to mess with his own head/self-esteem. And, as such, I’m willing to let Joyce receive some praise for this revelation, where I wouldn’t be so forgiving of the preacher.
That perspective helps me understand Roz. Sounds like that preacher has a lot to answer for, and will never really be able to clear his name.
Joyce still has a chance, though – her worst transgression (her treatment of Ethan) can still be turned around.
I’m sure Roz has had the same exact belief system her entire life, and was the same person at 8 as she is at 18.
She’s got a right to be mad, sure, but that isn’t, and never will be, a license to lash out like a petulant child. Her moral highground looks awfully familiar, too, given she’s basically being Joyce from weeks ago, around the sex tape.
I’m confused what you mean when you say Joyce “didn’t do” something. What didn’t she do?
As for the witch comment, that doesn’t read like an accusation to me. That reads like a sincere question born out of general ignorance…ignorance that wasn’t helped by Roz’s sarcastic response. Now does that make it any better? Not by much. But in that same strip Roz comes in referring to Joyce as “Bible Girl” because she had never bothered to learn her name. Neither of them have bothered to learn anything about the other and have instead imprinted whatever stupid sterotypes they’ve learned from their politics onto the other. Which I suppose was my point all along- Roz in her own way has been acting like Joyce’s opposite, happy with her own world views and stupidly hostile towards everything outside of them. She demonstrates some amount of compassion towards people she doesn’t understand ala that card she gives to Joyce…just like Joyce does when sticking up for her atheist friend and so forth. But her outburst here doesn’t make her right. In fact, I’d say it makes her worse than Joyce, because of the two so far its Joyce who has demonstrated a willingness to change.
You are saying that when confronted with evidence that something terrible has or is happening to a person that Joyce Brown will refuse to give them any help she can provide due to personal dislike of that person?
Sorry, Mr. Freemage. That doesn’t sound anything like the character *I* have been reading about all this time. I’m willing to hear what has led you to this conclusion, but its gonna be a hard sell. The fact that we have yet to see her help someone that she doesn’t like is not any kind of proof that she would NOT do such a thing. Moreover, I submit that “Joyce helping only people she likes” only appears reasonable because Joyce tends to like most of the people she comes into contact with…perhaps to a fault.
I’m firmly with Roz on this, but really I’m looking forward to this playing out. Better to lay it on thick, get the crying and the apologies out of the way, and let bygones, instead of extended animosity and constant torture.
I feel like both Roz and Dorothy are missing something here. Roz isn’t willing to let Joyce forget her past. She’s bringing it up when clearly Joyce isn’t that person anymore. But Dorothy, in her own way, is too willing to help Joyce here. It’s good that she’s supportive of this change in Joyce, but as Roz is kinda saying.
“Until today, that was you.”
Until Joyce has made full amends, or at least begins to do so, she’s still in danger of falling back.
She’s still dating Ethan in hopes of turning him straight. I feel like the breakup of that relationsihp seems to be where this scene will lead.
But… Joyce has never been that person. Aside from her date with Joe, when has she ever tried to be anything but helpful to someone? Even her relationship with Ethan isn’t just her trying to “fix” him, there was a lot of lead up to it from Ethan’s side as well where he’s grappling with maybe it is better for him to go back into the closet. From an outside perspective it’s pretty obvious that that’s not going to work, but it’s fitting that he’s not operating from an outside perspective on his own behaviour. And frankly, if he decides that he can’t go back into the closet, I’d be utterly shocked if Joyce didn’t do her best to support him anyways. Heck, take a look at how she reacted when Becky needed help. Sure, she did check to see if it was ok with the scriptures, but the first thing she did was say yes. There wasn’t even much thought behind it. Her best friend needed help, so she offered it.
For Roz to accuse her of being the same as these organizations that deny help to those who need it is unfair, and frankly, wrong. She doesn’t actually have a point here because Joyce doesn’t turn away people who need help.
Except that the problem is highlighted in how Joyce processes these changes. Each and every time, it’s a case of, “This is a person I like, therefore my prior teachings that say that what they do is inherently evil must be wrong. Time for me to excise precisely the amount of my scripture needed for me to make it okay to associate with them again, but not to look at the larger picture at all.”
And thus, she continues to blunder through and say (and do) hurtful things, all while believing it to be for the best.
Yeah, of course Roz isn’t willing to let Joyce forget her past. “Her past” consists of every single event from her birth until like, yesterday afternoon.
And by what standard is Joyce to be judged? Must she perform social activism under Roz’s watchful eye until such time as she has been deemed sufficiently amended?
Roz is kind of a poor choice for that, considering that, all things considered, Joyce has very little reason to like her no matter how much her viewpoint ends up changing.
No arguments that Roz is being a total bongo here, but I gotta agree with her. From her expression, Joyce does too.
That said, Leslie and Dorothy are totally in the right here. I’m not gonna throw a parade for someone that only has a moral epiphany when it’s *their* special someone that’s gay, but I’m not gonna berate them either. And a classroom really isn’t the place to beat someone with your moral high ground. That’s what the hall *after* class is for.
Summary: Roz is a right(eous) bongo, Leslie is having to (rightly) kick someone out of her class again (that’s the second time in four weeks? That’s pretty bad), Dorothy is right, and Joyce is looks pained as fuck.
So I’m gonna say Willis is doing a good job with the drama, as usual. How entertaining would things be if everyone was all wise and mature and shit?
And this is the point that everyone should take from this comic.
A person who’s made a mistake for a good chunk of their life doesn’t deserve special praise when they finally start correcting it, but they also don’t deserve to be trampled by someone riding in on the high horse of self-righteousness.
Roz has a terrible view on the world thinking that everything about a person is etched in stone. Roz has a point in the matter, but Joyce is refining her viewpoint by exposing herself to the world outside of her belief comfort zone. From what I’m interpreting, Roz is taking Joyce’s rage out of context, possibly thinking that this epiphany is only coming from listening to a sad story involving the lesson, not knowing anything about Becky, and just making herself look like an ass (again).
Roz is right in that Joyce’s mindset was enabling this behavior, she’s WAY WRONG to directly blame Joyce for putting homeless kids on the street. Unless Joyce actually did that, maybe don’t directly blame her for it.
Also, nobody said Joyce was a hero, they simply encouraged her more accurate view of things. I guess we shouldn’t be pleased when people begin to think about things more reasonably huh? For… some reason.
While I love Joyce and I can’t blame her for being raised how she was raised, I also can’t hate on Roz for this scene because SHE was raised with a duplicitous Republican politician for an elder sibling and probably spent a lot of time aggressively defending her views and getting zero respect for it. (Am I projecting? I may be projecting. And not just ’cause of my avatar.)
While I agree that analysis is plausible and indeed is probably true…if that’s the case, what she’s doing is projecting the anger or whatever pent up family crap she’s gone through with her sister onto Joyce.
Which is part of the point RJ is trying to make. If we give Joyce’s often hurtful behavior a pass because of her upbringing and immaturity, then why doesn’t Roz deserve the same opportunity? I’m not saying Leslie was wrong for kicking her out–time and place do matter. But I do have to wonder about how Joyce would’ve reacted to this lecture prior to Big Gay Becky arriving on the scene. (Best guess: A shit-ton of apologetics about hating the sin and loving the sinner, how it’s for the best of those poor gay kids to be forced back into righteous behavior even if it seems harsh, etc, etc.)
Exactly – Joyce gets a pass because we know her backstory, but Roz has a backstory too. She might be purging her anger inappropriately, but her anger is legitimate and very possibly comes from a place of hurt.
I’ve been thinking about this and am interested that lots of people are furious with Roz for disrespecting Joyce, but not for disrespecting Leslie. Les is the person who should be setting the terms of this conversation, and not just because she’s the professor… I’m really hoping we see a private conversation between Leslie and Roz tomorrow.
I find it grimly amusing that Roz decides to pick a fight not over Joyce disagreeing with her, but that she was apparently slow to change her position.
I get the feeling Roz’s rage is more to do with a possible lack of respect for her various declarations with an imagining of everyone functionally praising Joyce for her new position.
Not that they got much of a chance to react. Roz jumped on it rather quick.
Roz fundmentaly changed both the discussion and tone it ways that will derail the other character’s response to Joyce’s deceleration. The discussion now becomes about Roz vs Joyce, rather than the subject matter of Joyce’s bellicose declaration and the reasons for it. Mainly the importance of empathy, understanding, and compassion Which many organized groups (not just religions) general fail to apply even when it ostensibly a cornerstone of their group ethos.
But that discussion won’t happen now. And Roz demonstrated exactly why those things are important.
(It’s been said plenty before, but…) I really want to see how all of this affects Joyce’s relationship with Ethan. Change there seems kind of inevitable at this point.
Roz quite possibly has LGBT+ friends herself; plus, Roz has seen people like Joyce hate both Roz’s behavior and Roz herself (as a woman of color). Remember this? Joyce literally said that Roz has a damaged soul because she’s had too much sex. Also, Roz is sick of Robin trying to force Roz to be a poster girl for archaic, bigoted standards of purity to pander to a voting base that talks just like Joyce.
Roz has spent a lot of time pursuing healthy sex education for herself and her peers and has probably done hours upon hours of research to better herself, be capable of helping the LGBT+ community, and make sure she knows what she’s talking about.
So Joyce, who really is pretty brainwashed in a way that 18-year-old Roz is not equipped to understand, comes in and is totally shocked to learn these facts that Roz can probably rattle off by heart. Roz went out of her way to defy Robin, learn new perspective, and fight for better attitudes towards sex. Joyce blithely wandered around spewing hate because she didn’t know statistics that were readily available for her to find at any moment.
Roz is being a self-centered jerk here and should shut up and think about the question she’s asking in the first panel. But she has very, very good reasons to be angry at Joyce.
Those are good points and a very salient comic. Roz is plainly out of line here; the teacher isn’t ordering her out without reason. But seeing as how Joyce was fine judging her in the past, I understand why Roz might be so quick to seize on her.
Sure, she has reasons to be upset. But the fact remains, taking out your personal mad on someone, no matter how justified it is, just opens you up to more of the same.
JTo clarify the difference between Tom T’s reading and TSB’s point….
Joyce changes her views based around specific people–creating a very real form of hypocrisy. Roz, OTOH, is more likely to be starting from the broad rule (don’t judge the sexuality of others) and then seeing how failure to adhere to that rule is affecting people she cares about.
My only issue with this is the assumption that Roz has done the work as well. Unless we see it we don’t know that for a fact. I feel like a lot of Roz’s positions are thought out just enough to determine the position that is like to affect her sister the most.
We’ve seen Roz actively arguing for sexual freedom, helping distribute birth control, and slipping some orientation education into her conversations with Riley in a way I read as intentional, so I would say Roz has definitely done some research and is actively fighting for her beliefs.
But you’re right that we haven’t seen her talk about gay rights much, and she was pretty arrogant towards Leslie in one scene. So I might be overstating how knowledgeable Roz is. She might be a bad ally to LGBT+ people. Still, what we have seen from her is impressive enough that I’m inclined to empathize with this (still inappropriate) outburst.
I’m feeling pretty annoyed at the backlash against Roz here, so I’m going to elaborate on this. Once again, I totally agree that she’s way out of line, but this is one exchange probably taking less than 20 seconds. Her losing her temper for less than a full minute (and being appropriately criticized and punished by the people around her) is not grounds to dismiss her entire character.
Four weeks ago, Joyce told Roz that her soul was fundamentally damaged and almost destroyed because she’d had too much sex. Dorothy responded to Roz’s “sex tape as political statement” stunt by referring to it as “dumb”, and when she got an interview, pulled no punches in thoroughly questioning Roz’s personal and political choices. Dorothy turns full skepticism and criticism on Roz’s attempts and activism but coddles Joyce no matter what horrible shit she says.
Now, from Roz’s perspective, Joyce is going “Oh my god! The Church hurts gay teenagers? What??? Who knew this? Why didn’t anyone tell me?” And Dorothy, as usual, is holding her hand through this whole assumption.
As for “I’m expected to treat her like a hero”… yep, this absolutely happens. Arguing for feminism or LGBT+ rights makes you angry and humorless. I’m sure Roz has been called every misogynistic slur under the sun, especially after her sex tape. There are many, many people who like or share Facebook posts like “parents of the year heroically don’t set LGBT+ child on fire” but who would never actually recognize and praise activists who have been fighting for that kind of acceptance or who helped shelter kids that did get rejected. Which person is more of a feel-good human interest story: a priest who agrees to officiate gay weddings or a lawyer for a human rights organization fighting their hundredth case? People don’t want to hear about the hard, painful, often fruitless work of struggling for rights, they want to hear some cute story about how ~we all just need to love each other~ and then ~everyone ends up getting along~.
I love Roz and Dorothy and Joyce. I think they’re all self-centered and ignorant because they’re eighteen and leaving home and learning about new perspectives for the first time. I think they all have a long way to go in learning about the civil rights struggles happening in American society and how to help the people around them that are experiencing oppression that they don’t. I think Roz is further along than Joyce in that regard, though she needs to be careful not to tortoise-and-hare it up in that regard (I don’t think she will; Roz is less compassionate than Joyce but she still seems to me like a person who wants to do the right thing). I think ultimately this exchange will be a good thing for Joyce and will cement in her mind that she needs to keep up the introspection and criticism of her fundamentalist doctrine.
Hmmmm. Having spent 10+ comments arguing against Roz in this thread… you have a point. And you have explained it and elaborated it really well. I can see better where Roz is coming from now, and given a better choice of time and place this could have been the beginning of a constructive discussion.
I really don’t like the “ultimately it will be good for character X” argument for many reasons. But for the sake of paralellism I think that this will ultimately be good for Roz. She will remember this as the day she took all her passion, all her fury, all her finely honed argumentation skills and directed them NOT at the embodiment of the restrictive norms that her sister panders to, but at a confused and scared young person who was trying her very best to do the right thing at a high personal cost, and was just taking the first step in a journey that Roz herself began ages ago.
Oh, sorry, I should have been clearer: I don’t see “it will be good for Joyce in the long run” as a defense of Roz. That was meant as an analysis of this moment in Joyce’s character arc, not a reason why I think Roz’s anger is understandable. I do think it’ll be good for Joyce but I think a) that idea hasn’t occurred to Roz right now and b) it wouldn’t be a justification even if that was her reasoning.
I think you’re right about Roz. Willis has been setting Roz up for a bit of a fall (her boasting to Leslie that she doesn’t need the course, for example). I certainly don’t think she needs to be humiliated or anything but she could use a bit of humbleness and a reality check.
Ah, got it. Then I think we are on the same page there.
You are right that Roz is serving a plot function now and has been set up for it for some time (as pointed out in the alt text). Come to think of it, she has been cast in a less and less sympathetic light each time we’ve seen her (last time was when she did less than welcome advances to Jacob). She will have a reality check, just like you said.
In fact, something I really wish for now is that somewhere down the line Roz and Joyce will both have grown enough to reconcile their differences. That would be a very nice evidence of how they change into something better.
You know, you’re right. I’ve been too hard on Roz; she’s out of line here, but I responded too. Um. Energetically. Like this, it’s easier to understand where she’s coming from.
Well, i feel the in most cases negativity can lead to positive outcome in many cases, yes, roz is acting like a bongo and the way she acted is not suited for a classroom or most other places really, but hopefully this will lead to some development on joyce part and help her think a littlefor herself instead of thinking the holy book is all saying and all knowing……
Lotta Roz hate in here. Frankly, I agree with her. I realize Joyce isn’t a bad person and doesn’t deserve this level of vitriol, Roz is right. We shouldn’t treat people like they did something special for achieving a baseline level of respect for people.
Part of growing is having the ugly parts of you thrown in your face. In this case, that’s Joyce’s belief. So far her entire emotional journey has been about what other people have told her, and she seems to focus more on that than the fact that she chose to believe it.
As much as acceptance and respect for LGBT youth SHOULD be a bare minimum baseline for humanity, if we went by that baseline we’d be excluding over 3/4 of the population of the world. Sadly, it IS something special that Joyce has managed to grow a heart on this issue. Especially considering her upbringing. And I’m not sure how much of a “choice” her opinions are, when her livelihood in her parents’ house essentially entailed taking on these beliefs.
I’m not saying Joyce deserves a pat on the back, a medal, and a parade, but I think we can and should allow Joyce to feel good about doing a good thing and changing her opinion about LGBT people, as opposed to making her feel like shit like Roz seems determined to.
Calculus is an important skill for scientists. The moon is not made of green cheese.
What, you think those are non-sequiturs? No more so than Roz’s outburst about not treating Joyce like a hero. Sure, it’s “right”, but it’s not *relevant*, because Roz is the only one to bring that up. It’s about what’s happening in Roz’s head, not what’s happening in the classroom. (Unless Willis skipped a strip.)
Or maybe Roz equates “someone who knows less than me on this topic is talking about it” with “treating like a hero”
I mean, it’s almost like Joyce is learning issues related to gender studies in a class about gender studies. THE NERVE. STRIKE HER DOWN BEFORE SHE PUTS ON AIRS
One particularly big issue is that Roz did this in class. I’ve attended classes like this before; they almost always come paired with a disclaimer at the beginning of the semester saying what is and is not okay. As Leslie says, they talk about the material, not each other. Roz is teaching Joyce that it is not okay to ask questions or be offended in this course because she will be shot down, which has the potential to discourage her from asking questions and taking part in discussion later.
They’re not there for a confrontation, they’re here to learn. Roz not only hurt Joyce’s feelings, she basically shot down a great lead-up that Leslie had to continue teaching the material, damaged any trust that Joyce had that bringing up concerns and revelations of her own in this class and undercut Leslie’s authority.
I was too hard on Roz in prior updates, but I still believe what she did here was not correct or right.
I suppose if we’d gotten a beat or two more to show anyone, like, actually praising Joyce, I’d be more sympathetic towards Roz. As it is, her comments are frankly baseless and serve only to paint her as being needlessly vitriolic and hurtful.
You can do that without disrupting the class, you know. I’ve had an epiphany or two in class myself, but I somehow managed to restrain myself from shouting curses at all that’s wrong in the world right then and there.
To say nothing of Joe with his hacky jokes. Roz right here was flatout told she was derailing the discussion and she just kept on going. I don’t feel like it’s hard to leave this stuff until after class.
Not much per se i think except maybe transfered her from the slow-train over to the express-train, she still get to the destination, just a little quicker and on a more rougher xD
Well, that’s just the problem. You don’t have to be a horrible person to be enabling bigotry. History is full of very nice people doing horrible things, or just passively supporting those things being done by other people.
Thank goodness the subject I teach isn’t very polarizing. I could not handle this in my classroom.
In any case, I know that I would not have grown the way Joyce is now (I didn’t start where she did, but I did have a very narrow worldview not that long ago, and meeting a variety of people was necessary to help me understand the problem with my prejudices and assumptions) had it not been for the compassion and patience of the people who helped reshape me. No one went off on me, they just told me their perspectives. The honesty in it made the arguments convincing enough, and that’s all I needed.
Maybe Joyce needs a complete mental break to change, but I think she’s inherently good-natured and will grow just from gaining more evidence and perspective, and I think that approach will make the transformation not only smoother, but also quicker.
Roz’s self-righteousness is quite disgusting. Angry intolerant hateful behavior is despicable, regardless of the reason for that behavior. Acting like this makes her no better than those that she’s railing against.
Roz is full of shit. Joyce may have on occasion spoken out of ignorance but never out of hate to ANYONE no matter how counter to her world view they may be. When her friend came to her she did not turn her away even at great risk to her own situation at school. What she is going through is more of a contextualization than an epiphany. Joyce needs to change very little in herself, she is an open, accepting, and tolerant person. It is only that she needs to realize that there are many is her church community that aren’t, and that is a bitter pill for her to swallow.
It’s always tough to accept it when you find out people you love, and who love you in turn, have horrible characteristics, especially when they’re the people who taught you, who you admired growing up. It’s world-shattering and heartbreaking. Especially at that age, old enough to have been thoroughly convinced, but too young to have truly explored for yourself.
There will obviously be snags, but progress is the key. I understand Roz’s frustration, but I don’t think Joyce, the one who is actually trying to learn and grow now, should be the target of this rant, specifically.
Think about what Roz has seen. The last time we’ve seen interactions between the two of them, Joyce tells Roz her soul would be cut down to its roots, and wonders about her coven.
Joyce is trying to be accepting and tolerant, but that’s not really her upbringing and you can see she’s still learning how. When Roz says Joyce has changed from the last four weeks, she’s not wrong.
One of each. Since it wasn’t Roz’s party per se, she didn’t invite Joyce, and her full involvement was to try giving her information about what happened before getting asked about covens, I have a tough time considering it relevant to whether Joyce is accepting or not.
I can see Roz’s point of view but I also understand that Joyce is a product of her upbringing. She’s been exposed to a semester of diversity on campus but in reality that’s not going to undo the last eighteen years of what her parents and church community instilled in her. Understanding and tactfulness comes with age and different experiences, which Joyce is learning. To lash out on her especially after knowing her background makes Roz no different then the people who judged her. Which shows that Roz still has a lot of growing to do.
Even after seeing the Twitter comment about a word replacement, it took me WAY too long to notice everyone saying bongo, like I just assumed it was referencing some meme I hadn’t seen yet.
I saw the tweet too, but I didn’t connect the dots. My thought was “I wish he had said that on Tumbler so I could ask him what word he was replacing with what”
As rotten and over the top as that is, Roz /kinda/ has a point. Joyce is being a bit of a hypocrite for talking down to the church when she was one of those people.
No, but spontaneously turning around and acting like it’s not something you were a part of it.
I don’t know why, but the “I was against gays before, but then my FRIEND turned out to be one of them!” thing really bothers me. Like they didn’t realize hating and judging other people was wrong until it personally affected them. I know the end result is that we get a new ally, but damn.
She probably didn’t know all the stuff she learned in the last strip – her reaction isn’t just down to her friend coming out. Maybe she wouldn’t have had the same reaction if it wasn’t for Becky though.
Roz has only ever met intolerance with intolerance. The closest she came to trying to expand Joyce’s worldview was encourage her to seek a therapist after what happened with Ryan. And that took something ,she could only assume, horrible happening.
Good on Leslie for telling her to step outside. The comments Roz was directing at Joyce was unacceptable given the situation, disrespecting the teacher even more so after repeated warnings. You don’t attack someone for a sudden change in worldview or a realization. Even if Joyce does need it thrown in her face. Becky’s doing a good job of that by distancing herself and actively calling her out for inconsistencies.
I think it’s hard to say whether or not anyone is feeling “smug and superior” because we don’t have a live feed into anyone’s head, and we’ll never actually know how someone is feeling, unless they honestly tell us. So, unless Roz says, “You know, I feel like I’m better than her right now…” then we can say, for sure, that’s she’s feeling smug and superior. But she could also just be feeling angry… really angry. And it’s not unjustified. Is she being a jerk? Yes, but Joyce still hasn’t come to the realization of her part in it. She still hears of “her church” doing it, “her peers” doing it… but never yet considered that it was also “her” doing it. She was angry she has an oblique association with homophobia… but hadn’t yet admitted that she also had a direct part in it. That’s a different beast.
I don’t think Roz is saying, “You changed your mind for the wrong reason”… it’s that just learning something doesn’t automatically make you better. You have to put more effort into it.
I’m inclined to be on Roz’s side, here. Truth is not nice, and learning is not painless.
That might be applicable if Roz had asked what Joyce was going to do with this newfound revelation of hers. Piling on her for what’s already done isn’t productive.
And this is why I am so glad not to be in my late teens/early twenties. I’ve seen some really vicious things happen when I was in Bloomington in 94. I was in a sociology class and everyone ganged up on this poor girl from Israel. It was awful. She was sobbing and dropped the class, dropped out of IU and moved back to Israel. I also saw these assholes gang up and berate this older student in my French class and made fun of him for mispronouncing stuff. The dude had a hearing impairment. He had a visual hearing aid. I got shitty with them and said “Uh, people with hearing impairments take longer to learn how to pronounce things. Lay off.” God, I hated that time in my life.
Its not just teens and 20 sometimes, people who are bullies like that never stop. I still get prank calls from a jerk I met in freshman year. He’s in his 40’s now.
I really don’t like it when people get judgmental over other people’s failure to forgive… or do so in quick enough a fashion… particularly when the party to be forgiven has yet to deliver a simple, honest “I’m sorry”.
I’m not going to go out of my way to say that Roz’s actions here are appropriate. But, neither am I exactly going to refuse her the right to make Joyce’s earlier castigation of Roz have any consequences, whatsoever.
Pretty sure when most people go “GODAMN SOCIAL JUSTICE” it’s aimed at the jerks on tumblr that verbally tear down a guy for getting a girl home after finding her passed out drunk, and finding him a creep for looking at her phone to find her mom.
yeah, those people, all over, my cousin said he saw that one time, did you know they are also pushing for laws to outlaw straight men going outside? too far imo
Yeah, but that’s a vocal minority, the people who get way too much focus because it’s the picture that people who are against feminism and the like WANT to be painted of those groups. You’re more likely to get “well done guy” from a majority of feminists on Tumblr.
Barring that, Tumblr is the chosen outlet for a lot of people to vent their frustrations on. It’s not surprising to find very extremist opinions there because it’s treated as a safe haven from the judging eyes of irl society. People making assumptions based on those posts are merely taking a view into the mind of someone who’s obviously very pissed off with their daily life, rather than making a coherent judgment of an social justice group.
I know what it is. But what I’m saying is that it’s not a bad thing. You *want* to be a warrior for social justice. There is literally nothing bad about social justice. People using it as an insult are basically saying ‘ewww, youuu… youuu DECENT PERSON!’. That makes no sense.
Ehhh, I wouldn’t use “warrior” to describe myself as a social justice proponent, because warrior carries violent connotations which run very contrary to what I think social activism is supposed to be about. To me, it’s meant to be a non-violent movement. The people who use violence as a means to bring awareness to social inequality are the so-called “warriors” that people who hate social activism point to in order to denounce the whole concept entirely.
That’s just a quibble over a word though. Fighter, then. Or even proponent, even though that seems less like an action word, more like a talk-y word. Champion, maybe?
We agree, basically, is what I’m saying. I’m anti-violence, pro justice, social and legal and any other kind of justice there may be.
Whatever, I don’t even really hate the word ‘warrior’. You become a warrior if you fight for something you believe in. It’s obviously not meant in a violent context here. Also, this word in our society has transcended the restricted meaning of a person who violently fights to the death, etc., it can totally mean just being a fighter for something and you know that, too.
Besides, sometimes you have to get a little loud, a little aggressive to get the message across. Progress is not made just by people singing Kumbaya. It also takes the people who organize a protest or a demonstration or a rally. Peaceful. Not violent. But agressive and out there. With the intent of being heard and being seen. I don’t hate ‘warrior’ as a descriptor for people like that to be honest with you.
Anyway. Social justice warrior/fighter/champion etc. isn’t an insult, shouldn’t be an insult and the movement of people reclaiming it and being proud of being called SJWs gives me hope, because they should be proud. Justice is always worth fighting for.
But you don’t want to be a social justice asshole, which is what a bunch of these people really are. “I’m Right and they’re Wrong and that justifies my treating them like shit.” Just like Mary, but with a different Right and Wrong.
No, it’t something used to describe people who do things like dox people for writing a racially insensitive limerick, or post the personal information of Klan members online to have people harass them at their homes and businesses. Or spam a person’s job until they get fired because they made a comic that ridicules said actions.
I kinda think that anyone who is coming down hard on Roz about this but didn’t come down equally hard on Joyce about that kinda has a double-standard. I can understand a reader responding more harshly to this because Roz is more eloquent (and has a better chance of hitting her target), whereas Joyce’s “hanky panky” freak out came across as sillier and more humorous to the reader (which took some of the edge off), but in terms of intention, Joyce really wasn’t any better.
I do agree that Roz shouldn’t be doing this, but Joyce shouldn’t have pulled that unbelievable crap either.
Also relevant moments from that scene: Joyce basically saying Roz is a horrible person because she has sex (with a pretty nasty look on her face, in contrast to her ‘caring about [Joe’s] soul’), and Roz asking if that’s how Joyce makes herself feel superior, which feeds right into this scene (“first Joyce thinks she’s better because she’s pure, and now she’s a hero for being a decent human?”)
I’m definitely in Dorothy’s camp here, but…
Joyce tries to be a nice person, and she has a good heart, but there have been at least a couple of times where she tosses that out the window because of her faith (and, yes, upbringing; I know she’s a kid that’s in the process of growing). Especially pertinent to this comic, Roz has been the target of at least one of those times.
Should Roz have gone off on her like this (especially after being told to drop it)? No. But I can definitely understand her getting fed up and not willing to have any patience.
The way she’s doing it is not something to applaud. It’s a blatant personal attack, and it’s not productive toward the ultimate end goal of understanding. I think Roz is being a bongo, despite having a valid point.
This very comment board, only last strip, was acting like Joyce was some kind of hero now for having what is indeed the simplest of epiphanies. When Roz calls out the idea that Joyce is suddenly SO GREAT for only now realizing the church’s fuck ups (and only once she had something personal happen to her) she is calling out all of you that were so quick to applaud Joyce. The author wrote that intentionally. Willis even says in the alt text he basically put Roz in this class so she could be there to call out joyce like this.
Sure, Roz is being mean. But you know what? Mike is mean. all the time. in so many worse ways for shits and giggles. and people call him awesome. people love mike no matter how much of an asshole he is and concoct all these ridiculous justifications about how he’s an asshole “for other people’s own good.” They make excuses for him and try to say he regularly fucks people over to somehow help them.
But on the other hand when Roz makes a completely legit point in a mean way?
People like you call her the b-word so many goddamn times that Willis actually had to censor it to bongo. I see the difference. So no, I’m going to continue to applaud Roz, until the amount of reasonable conversation on here outweighs the amount of sexist assholes calling Roz a b-word.
I don’t think we think Joyce is a hero, I think we are excited for her to be reaching that conclusion.
Also, how often does he ever say anything about a person? Seems to be he more often criticizes acts and objects, and sometimes does things that are outright ridiculous, but he never insults anyone directly and almost always gives them an out.
Does anyone else feel like they missed something like wayback that would have kicked this into motion. like Roz catching on to the farce of joyce and ethans relationship. Or is Roz just being a an asshole?
While not LGBT+ related specifically, Roz has probably been the one person Joyce tends to not be very nice about when faced with her ‘un-Christian’ attitudes (not that Roz isn’t more than a bit inflammatory herself).
Roz likes to paint everyone with broad strokes. But Roz learned that Joyce was a Fundy after her sex tape ordeal when Joyce found out about it in gender studies. Everything else is an assumption drawn from what she heard in gender studies class in typical Roz fashion.
Wait a minute… what exactly is the seating plan in this class? In panel 4, Dorothy is look backwards at Roz… and then in the last, Roz is looking backwards at Joyce, and what appears to be Dorothy (or is there another blonde wearing red there?)
Dorothy is not looking backwards, she’s looking sideways. Dorothy and Roz are in the same row and Joyce is one row behind. Unless my perspective is totally warped xD
I’m sorry, but you don’t get to shut people down after they’ve realized that what they believed was wrong, and they are now moving forwards in a good direction. I understand your rage, I get it. But you know what? Yes. Yes you should be applauding this revelation. Because guess what? We don’t live in the future where everyone is wonderful and lovely to LGBT+ people. We live in the present where people are awful to them. And pretending we live in the future is stupid. You need to be happy about these small victories. We can’t get to that future if we don’t live in the now, and work hard to get there.
I disagree, in panel two Joyce is ready to fight back but in the last panel Joyce looks like she finally understands.
In the previous strip shes angry at the church and shes a member of the church yet she seems to think the appalling attitudes of the church don’t have anything to do with her yet shes quite willing to help Ethan because in her mind he just has to fight his own urges and he’ll eventually become straight which is the sort of thinking that leads to corrective sexuality
This is a good point too. For all the talk about Joyce’s growth, she had been missing a key part of that, owning up to personal failings. Her outburst is just against the church, as if her hands were clean.
She’s been as understanding as her upbringing has prepared her. But she’s called being gay abnormal, taken it on herself to help “fix” a gay man, found it necessary to look for loopholes in scripture to help her gay best friend.
Her real growth is going to be from seeing how she fits into all of this. Roz is out of line, but this epiphany wasn’t complete without her.
Oh, and while Roz greatly overstates things, it looks to me like that’s where her anger is coming from. Seeing Joyce furious at what all these other people have done, as if washing her hands of having held the same prejudices.
Applauding? I would applaud Joyce, Roz doesn’t necessarily have too. What she has NO right to do is shove knowledge of bad things that Joyce believed and make her feel bad about it once she NO LONGER BELIEVES IT. It accomplishes literally nothing except make Joyce feel bad. She may be right but this tirade of hers does not make anything right. This shit is emotional bullying under a veil of self-righteousness, using truth to make wounds without a point.
Fuck it Roz she changed her mind, you don’t need to give her a standing ovation but, just pat yourself on the bag for seeing the world correct someone’s misconceptions and move on. There was no need for this.
Roz doesn’t personally have to celebrate Joyce’s change in opinion, but if you can’t celebrate that, what can you celebrate? Public opinion doesn’t change all at once, it changes in one individual at a time.
As wrong as it is for Roz to be an asshole to Joyce, maybe this is some emotional trauma coming out into the open for the first time. Was Roz ever kicked out of her parents’ house at any point?
And my ability to tolerate Roz’s outbursts in a class like is all the more lessened. No matter what cause you’re standing/fighting for, going out of your way to hurt someone is still being a bully.
While I agree with Roz’s words here, I think she should have waited for some context before saying them. Joyce is showing progress after four weeks of being stagnant. While Roz has a right not to praise her, she should have waited until a better time and brought it up to Joyce in a calmer fashion, asking if anything changed. Then if she said that Joyce only changing because her FRIEND was on the line, after years of remaining ignorant of others, it would have been justified.
Yelling at Joyce in the middle of a classroom, when Joyce has just had a very obvious emotional epiphany, without knowing anything about why or when Joyce changed her belief pattern…that isn’t right. And the fact that she attacks Dorothy for defending her friend (and Dorothy didn’t even say Roz was wrong, just that Joyce was on the right track), AND disrespects a teacher…
Roz needs to pay attention to context. Both the context of her own actions, and the context of the actions of others.
Roz is right, shouts out to my girl Roz, keeping it 100% all the time, dont enable the joyces of the world. which is worse, homeless lgbtq youth, or the guilt joyce feels? TRICK question, her guilt will always be worth zero, shouts out to Roz for keepin it real
Of course it could go the opposite way. Joyce could double down on her fundamentalism and become yet another enemy of LGBT+ equality because hey, who wants to be like that snarky hanky-panky queen in her Sociology class?
Funny how being in the right seems to give people the idea that they can skip the ‘being a decent human being’ part of winning friends and influencing people. It’s like we’re all Dr. Gregory House deep down.
nah this aint about “winning friends” no i dont want to have to coddle people to get rights and shelter and housing, im not going to sit here and indulge her far too late tears when people like me are kicked out of their homes and abadoned by their families and commit suicide at a rate nearly twice that of average teens. if straight allyship depends on my indulging straight people, and avoiding making them feel bad, then i don’t want their help. shouts out to my girl Roz
Joyce already believes that that shit is wrong now. What Roz is doing is clearly unnecessarily. Why yell at someone for something they no longer believe? Has Joyce personally contributed to any of those things? We know she hasn’t. In fact once she was presented with proof that such things happened she changed her tune very nearly on the minute. You don’t gotta clap her on the back for it, but . . . Yelling her down like that is not productive.
If Roz thought it might accomplish something I could forgive it, but it won’t. It obviously won’t. You say this like there’s an either or; preserve Joyce feels or let her think that shit is okay. Joyce doesn’t think that shit is okay, at least not anymore. And since yelling Joyce down won’t accomplish anything, Roz is basically just shouting down someone whose worldview is collapsing. That is ALL that Roz is doing. And that is pretty shitty.
The whole thing people are saying, that we shouldn’t criticize people for realizing the right thing for the wrong reason…
Well, there’s something to that.
But there’s also the simple fact that, if the only reason you abandon hateful worldviews is because they effect you personally, it doesn’t challenge hateful views about people who aren’t you or your loved ones.
Having something happen to you or your loved ones is one of the most effective ways to promote empathy for others in a similar way, unless you’re not much of an empathetic person to begin with.
Stephen Pinker cites studies saying that reading novels (and maybe autobiographies) can be an effective tool for growing empathy, too. But that’s actually pretty similar to having something hit someone you know: reading those sorts of things can get you into someone else’s head and experiences. “social simulation”. Few if any people decide their values entirely on abstract principle or statistics, and those who do aren’t necessarily good people.
Sometimes it takes a sledgehammer to get through that wall.
If it’s any consolation, Joyce didn’t think of it as hateful because she didn’t see the effects, and because she doesn’t have any hate in her own heart. She naively assumes (well… assumed) that because she doesn’t hate, that others who profess to hold the same beliefs also do not hate.
Reality, as the Buddha said, can be a stone cold motherfucker.
The problem is that humans are wired to be tribal creatures, clannish creatures. Humans are evolutionarily programmed to not care as much about the welfare of those outside their groupings, and they won’t, unless/until there is some parallel apparent to them that enables them to bridge that psychological us/them gap and start thinking of people as an extended part of their tribe. Pesky primate social evolution.
Roz isn’t wrong. Her words were harsh, but hearing them will help Joyce think about what she really believes.
I wouldn’t be so sure about the last point. Some of the most vocal activists out there, regardless of the issue, became activists because the issue hit very close to home. Wanting to save others from experiencing your pain or the the pain of someone you care deeply about is a very potent motivator.
I love to see this kind of discussion. People making salient points, responding mostly in productive and non-combative manner, and apparently actually thinking about the different sides of the debate.
It’s almost… un-Internet.
Oh bugger. Am I in a parallel universe again?
(I’m not saying Roz is -wrong-, but what she’s doing is overly confrontational for a classroom and kind of pointless (as others have said, she’s barely if at all touched the topic when Joyce actually needed a smack on the head)).
I saw it almost happen once. There was a black woman in one of my sociology classes who wasn’t very good at thinking before speaking. She basically accused the white girl next to her of being a racist because she moved her purse when the black lady sat next to her.
My wife got kicked out of a religious studies class at Canterbury University as in her opinion it seemed to be a recruiting drive for Christianity, mind you she ended up graduating with double degree with honors…
I worked as a peer instructor at the undergrad level for two years. Only once did I have to kick a student out of class. Coincidentally, he never came back (unfortunate, as the class was a mandatory last ditch effort for students struggling with a low GPA- his decision to stop attending resulted in his being expelled).
Oh, the church invades peoples’ homes and forcibly removes their children now? And even better! Joyce, a homeschooled student who is just now learning the ways of the world in college is responsible for the suffering of all homeless people of the LGBT community.
Not only are Roz’s criticisms uncalled for, I don’t even think they are completely accurate either. Even if Joyce was taught homosexuality was wrong I don’t think her parents ever mentioned gays being kicked out of the house or disowned, and even if the person kicked out was a stranger, I believe she would still stand against that action.
I think that being against homosexuality and not giving shelter to gay and lesbian people can be related, depending on how religious the people/institutions are. You could easily make that kind of connection.
To all the people who foolishly keep saying Roz has a point here, imagine saying this:
“That ‘church’ that blew up buildings, beheaded people, raped 10 year old girls, and committed honor killings of women for simply leaving their home without a male escort? THAT WAS YOU. Until today, THAT WAS YOU.”
Just because some adherents to a religion do terrible things doesn’t mean that everyone who follows that religion is just as bad.
I mean, it’s not like Joyce was one of those pro-gay Christians before now. Or attended pro-gay establishments. Literally just changed her stance this morning.
Roz is wrong for other reasons, but Joyce very much was a part of the institutions that perpetuate these behaviors until now. Not comparable to some peaceful Muslim being charged with the actions of some violent sect in another country.
You’re way off mark here. Given what Roz knows about Joyce (re: premarital sex and “your soul is a flower” metaphors) she makes a good guess that Joyce has been involved in church movements and youth groups that foment toxic attitudes towards LGBT+ children under the guise of being charitable.
Saying something like your example to a Muslim kid is just loaded with a lot more ugly assumptions that the ones Roz is making.
So when Roz ASSUMES that Joyce was part of those youth movements and so forth, it’s ‘a good guess’, but when you make the same statements to a Muslim person, hey, stop making assumptions!
What’s the difference? Oh, right, I forgot. We have to protect the ickle feelings of Muslims, but we can shit on the Christians all we want.
I’m an atheist myself – shit on them all equally, let the good lord Gabe Newell sort them out.
That’s a false equivalence. Christians hold way way way more power in our society than basically any other group. It’s a simple matter of not punching down. If I have a baby bird in my hand and my grown brother nearby, punching them both with all my might does not actually result in anything resembling equality.
Sure. But I can’t help but notice that either way it still makes you a dick. Doing one makes you a bigger dick than the other, but it still makes you a dick. I mean, I suppose its possible that your bro or the baby bird had it coming, but on the face of it…
What in the name of Cheese does Gabe N have to do with this? Also, totes agree with Willis, + the fact that shitting on everyone results in nothing but more shit in a world with quite enough already.
Roz makes reference to the Joyce’s indignation being new behavior. This probably isn’t the first time the subject of homosexuality-bisexuality etc has come up in class. Bear in mind, only a couple of these lectures have actually been on panel, and even those lectures we only saw five or ten minute clips.
I’m think we’re supposed to infer that Joyce has already made her feelings on gay people known to Roz at an earlier date.
You may have missed the point entirely. Roz had reasonable grounds for making these assumptions about Joyce. Assuming that some random Muslim is a terrorist is a total shot in the dark. A better equivalent to that assumption would be assuming that some random Christian is a terrorist (see: IRA, KKK).
Just pointing out you needn’t go that far. Mainstream moderate Muslim theology is not any more accepting of LGBT and feminism than conservative Christianity is. I say this as a resident of a Muslim majority nation and thus see it first-hand.
I don’t disagree with Roz here, admittedly in part because in that situation I could see myself being that person. From Roz’s point of view, it seems like she thinks she has two options on how she can respond to this. Option 1 is that she can congratulate Joyce legitimately and applaud and, as she puts it, “act like she’s a goddamned hero” for this fairly simple epiphany about something that is basically a driving element behind Roz’s character. This is not a favorable option to Roz as it could give the impression to others that she thinks Joyce’s revelation is something more than what she believes should have been an obvious point from the start. Option 2 is that she can respond cynically and try to drive the point in deeper to Joyce. I think her response is ultimately more about that than feeling smug or superior or some bullshit like that. This isn’t about feeling superior to someone, it’s kind of a natural response to this considering how strongly Roz seems to feel about these issues. It’s important to Roz that she makes sure that Joyce knows that she has been a happy, knowing contributor to this issue the whole time, whether she knew better or not, and that disassociating herself from the church NOW doesn’t necessarily fix the things she’s already done and the time she’s spent being part of the problem. Joyce will have to do more than that to redeem herself in Roz’s eyes, I would think. If Joyce can keep this revelation and go back and right the things she’s done wrong because of her former belief, she might make this epiphany worth something.
That said, this is also obviously just a clash of backgrounds and the beliefs that sprouted from those backgrounds. We all know well that Joyce’s beliefs are what they are and she didn’t really know anything else until she came to college, and that’s been brought up many times in this comments thread in defense of Joyce. I would say, though, that you have to take both sides into consideration if you’re going to defend Joyce on that point. Roz doesn’t have that background at all. I find it likely that Roz can’t really understand how someone could grow up in that type of background and be so sheltered considering what her own views are. Like anyone, and particularly young people, she sees her opinions as obvious, logical things, such that she doesn’t see any reason why anyone with any sense in their heads wouldn’t come to the same conclusions.
I am not a fan of Joyce, and never have been. I recognize the fact that she tries to do the right thing. Being a full fledged fundie, and being 18 really doesn’t give her a wide world view.
She usually tries to help her friends, but if you look close at her relationships with others: she is pretty good at the double entende.
And she is good at getting what she wants by rationalizing her beliefs to fit what she wants them to mean. Lesbian sex = wrong….but Becky is a friend so =look hard in the Book, and maybe it’s after all not toooo wrong.
I know and have known people like her, and I run the other way when they get near me.
But, whatever reasons Roz has for attacking her: she is stupid to do it in this way. Joyce doesn’t seem to be asking anyone for anything here: she is too busy absorbing a totally new and against her personal belief system, idea. She hasn’t had time to care what anyone thinks it appears.
For that I have to say good for you Joyce. (noting that she did leave herself a back door ….”I may walk back on this, but for now I’m cheesed”. She still hasn’t broken with the Church and that statement seems to show she may well not.
But you can’t expect her to yet. She’s just now beginning to see flaws in the church, and she does not yet know what that means. Maybe she’ll try to rationalize it at first – the church has always been a stable rock for her- an absolute north on her moral compass. That the church is wrong swung that compass out of control for a minute.
Roz, I get the anger. I really do. It’s hard to forgive someone who has unfairly passed judgement for so long. Your response, however, is WAY out of line! No, Joyce shouldn’t get a medal for suddenly being outraged, but berating her isn’t a good way to go about things. Acknowledge that you’re having a hard time forgiving without being an ass about it. Believe me, I know it’s hard. So, needless to say, I’m with Leslie on this one.
Note: I am a lesbian transwoman, and leader of a student group for LGBTQ folks and allies on a major US college campus. Now, does what I’ve told you about myself make me absolutely right? Hell no! I just wanted people to understand where the opinion (and it is just an opinion) is coming from.
The only point I see is that having difficulty in life entitles you to yell at people who’ve had slightly less difficulty in life.
I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but that is what we’re arguing about, right? One privileged first-world woman receiving an education 90% of the world won’t yelling at another privileged first-world woman receiving an education 90% of the world won’t because the second is slightly more privileged than her?
I mean, if we’re going to play the ‘My Life Sucks’ pissing game, I can think of way more people whose lives have sucked way harder than an LGBT teen kicked out in a Western, developed country with some semblance of a safety net.
I’m just coming to terms with being transgender. Part of this is because I was raised my like Joyce was. I know her thinking as was mine was wrong. However, it is how we were raised. It was engraved in our heads not to question and more or less to make LGBT people pariahs. Our actions will never be right, but tplease don’t blame Joyce or me or those like her too much. We really are trying. There us a lot of brainwashing we have to undo. Now I’m trying to help other religious people see. Joyce. Is an inspiration to me Elbe cause she is keeping her faith and changing her views. Again I agree Joyce and I were part of that institution and blame rests on us and there is not enough apology in the world. However, Joyce deserves forgiveness and the ability to forgive herself. I’ve forgiven myself and realized how closed minded I was. To all the people being mean about Joyce I’m just asking you to maybe lay off.0
Here’s what I find interesting. From what I can tell, Roz and Joyce aren’t actually complete opposites. Both suffer from a high sense of self-righteousness born from their backgrounds, though Joyce’s self-righteousness is caused by her upbringing and Roz’s is caused by rejecting her upbringing (or, at the very least, her association with her sister). They also both have difficulty seeing things from any perspective other than their own. You can see that in how Roz behaves in Gender Studies, saying she could teach the class herself and scoffing at Leslie’s suggestion that she might be wrong about some things. Roz isn’t as mature as she thinks she is. This doesn’t make her a bad person anymore than Joyce’s ignorance makes her a bad person. But it does mean that Roz has just as much growing up to do as Joyce does, just in a different context.
I can’t defend Roz’s actions here in spite of sympathizing with her sentiment. Her attitude implies that she feels qualified to judge Joyce, despite not really knowing anything about her personally. Roz knows that Joyce is a fundamentalist with some very backwards views on sex. That’s it. She knows nothing about Joyce outside of class and therefore does not know of the life-altering couple of days she’s had. Despite this, she’s made up her mind what Joyce is like and is yelling at her for it. And the same is true on the flip side. Roz honestly is not within any right to harp on Joyce for her sudden change in beliefs on homosexuality, just as Joyce was not within any right to claim Roz’s soul was tainted by having sex before marriage. Joyce was wrong to do that then, just as Roz is wrong to do this now. The issue I have is that Roz’s rant implies that it doesn’t matter if Joyce has begun to change her way because she didn’t do it fast enough. That’s honestly a very close-minded attitude to have; change doesn’t occur overnight and you would think Roz would know that. But that’s just it, she’s impatient and impulsive and she assumes she’s always right. And thus she launched an unprovoked attack on a girl she barely knows but feels she has every right to judge (probably because hey, Joyce judged first, which is again an extremely immature attitude). Not only that, she did so in a completely inappropriate setting and disrespected her teacher in the process. And still she acted as though she were justified, either not knowing or not caring that she was behaving in a manner very similar to that which she condemned. All this is just speculation, of course, but I’ve been thinking a lot about this since I first read the strip on Patreon.
Right, both of them are first-term freshmen after all. Both of them entered with assumptions that they had complete understandings of the world. Part of the purpose of higher education is to challenge those convictions and produce more nuanced points of view. (Can you tell I went to a liberal arts school?)
Anyway, regarding Roz specifically, I think that the main issue with her position is that, while she recognizes Joyce has been a part of a system that reinforces hegemonic norms, Roz is ignoring how that system also works enforce those norms with in Joyce.
ROZ. Roz Roz Roz. You’re great. I love you for your progressive attitude and ambitious, noble goals.
That said, check your goddamn privilege. YOU weren’t raised by the church. YOU didn’t spend your entire life with people who are suddenly the bad guys. You don’t have to cope with the idea that all your (corporeal) role models are being torn off their pedestals every goddamn day.
Fundamental Attribution Error in academic speak. “people’s tendency to place an undue emphasis on internal characteristics to explain someone else’s behavior in a given situation, rather than considering external factors.”
Or “I’m getting an abortion because I really need one, she’s getting an abortion because she’s a slut.”
“I’m telling it like it is, she’s an asshole”.
Roz does have a point, of course. But people who are so angry and unforgiving give me some of my most severe panic attacks, and belittling Joyce in front of the whole class seems incredibly counter-productive. I guess I should probably try to skip these next few pages and try to get a summary from someone else later.
,,,,,Actually, social injustice is Very Good, as you can see, the teenage character in this webcomic is being abrasive about social justice
so let’s tone it down with the thinking social justice is good, people, as you can see, it causes meanness, which is worse than social injustice, look at how bad this white person has been made to feel, you know the whole social justice dealy has gone too far, if people could just have perfect tone, rationality, and consideration when doing the social justice like the respectable anti social justice people, maybe the whole social justice thing would be ok to me, but as for now, I just dunno man, maybe shut it down, teenagers on tumblr have said things that sound silly.
Well, admittedly, anyone posting here is pretty much guaranteed not to have the giant, glaring ‘not born in a Western and/or developed nation’ square. You get that one square, you win the entire ‘My Life Sucks’ game.
But those sorts of people don’t have Internet, so we can pretend they don’t exist.
Unless, of course, we run short of things to wrap ourselves in, and need to co-opt their plight for the very important purpose of winning arguments online.
and that’s what people who don’t denounce the social justice after seeing this actually think! scary, I’m glad I can remain neutral and good, saying roz was wrong here just isn’t enough
you’re right, we are not in disagreement, the state of society is very good, and people shouldn’t get so riled up about it, I realize now that if someone is a jerk about social justice, it is a valid argument for me to use against social justice. I respect you for having the cojones to call me out for mocking your brilliant takes on privilege and the righteous take down of the tumblr illuminati, whose oppression of the straight white male is powerful, pervasive, and undeniably just as bad as any problem in the world.
I think that through this great debate we have come to a mutual respect
I’m sure you’ll get many reblogs for this when you post it. Might want to edit it so you appear to know how to use capitalization, punctuation, and the English language.
I was going to screen cap this and post it on my pro knockout game white genocide tumblr, but now I am too ashamed by your superior rationality and tell-it-like-it-is-tude. ive learned the evils of privilege checking, i will now embark on a journey of learning, thank you for the link to your subreddit
actually, it’s not he, I prefer pronouns you don’t even know, I’m going to force you to learn new words, and interrupt adam carolla podcasts about ways to avoid low t with commercials of gay black people talking or something
I’ve been in a classroom that landed in a vehement fight like this. The teacher REALLY had trouble dealing with it. I’m hoping Leslie manages to pull through this.
Hey, Roz, heads up. When a member of the community you’re trying to defend says to knock it off, you bleeding knock it off.
I don’t care if you’re filled with outrage. I don’t care if you feel that you’re doing the right thing. We’re the folks who are getting hurt, and we don’t want to do it your way, so STOP.
(I’m black, not LGBT, but I believe the principle is transitive)
What’s Roz’s point? That because until today Joyce represented the very institution she is now decrying, her transformation is remarkable and that to accomplish such a change in so short a time, it must be driven by a great compassion for others and Joyce should, in fact, be treated like a ‘goddamned hero’? Because that’s the interpretation where what she’s saying is worth saying at all. I don’t think that’s the point, though.
Otherwise the only purpose of this rant is to insult Joyce for absolutely no reason, and the only reason the insult works is because Joyce’s point of view has changed enough for her to see it as an insult, which means the insult is inherently inaccurate. Joyce was ignorant, but she isn’t anymore. She would have stood by the Church’s views on homosexuality, but she doesn’t now. Roz is just attacking the things about Joyce that Joyce has just changed – not even bringing up any issues she has with the views Joyce still has – to make Joyce feel bad about herself. The reason that Roz does this is just that Joyce hasn’t changed enough for Roz to like her, but that is not a valid reason; that’s just spite.
I’m not saying that nothing good can come from this. Joyce could be reminded of her quickly some of her beliefs have changed and accept that it was a change for the better, and that maybe she needs to re-evaluate some of her other attitudes and preconceptions. But it’s not because Roz did anything good here. That’s not Roz’s goal, because she could have done that nicely, and been much more direct about it. Everything Roz said is true, which her defenders here in the comments keep pointing out, but everything she said was also driven by blind aggression, with no intent other than to hurt. Of course, in fiction when a character does this it’s usually forgivable, because it’s necessary to provide exposition for a character’s emotions. In fiction, a character’s emotions always have to be externalised, because they’re meaningless when they’re internalised. But we’re judging Roz by real–world standards, and she is doing the wrong thing here.
Meh. I’m not sold on Roz being right about anything, frankly. Abandoning people to the streets does not seem like something Joyce would ever be willing to accept or excuse. I could see her questioning Lezlie’s statistics maybe, but I don’t buy that she would give these practices a big thumbs up even if Becky hadn’t shown up.
Though it could and should be done in a much better manner, I think one element of what Roz is doing is what Joyce needs. It’s very easy to slip from one comfortable position to the slightly-less-wrong comfortable position.
To go from being the one with the bigoted position to thinking you deserve a cookie simply for not holding that view.
My father used to argue against same-sex marriage. Then, he changed his view to the notion that, if it went up for a vote, he would vote for it, but that he wasn’t comfortable with it being done via the courts. At which point, I asked him how he would feel if his own marriage was subject to public vote as well. He got less wrong, but he felt that he was in a rewardable position because he didn’t hold the view that homosexuality was a mistake of nature.
It’s too easy to become comfortable and simply rest in a position that is best identified as “not as much a part of the problem”. Hey, the progress is good, but it’s not over. And, part of progress is, at times, giving an apology for having been on the wrong side of an issue.
That said, Roz is, in part, reacting to Joyce’s previous castigation of Roz. Oh, gee, where was this sudden reaction to cruelties in the name of God covered with false humility back then? And, no, Roz is not under any obligation to forgive Joyce. Other people’s activities regarding premarital hanky panky should be one of the things that Joyce has to reconsider. So, yeah, Joyce had some response coming.
So, should Roz have done what she did? No. Is she totally unjustified? No. Sometimes, there just isn’t an answer that can satisfy.
But, I’ll stand by my refusal to judge someone for failing to forgive, failing to forgive fast enough, or failing to forgive absent an honest apology.
Is she totally unjustified? Yes. Her background at best explains her actions, but nothing excuses them. She’s doing this because she sees the fundie in a vulnerable situation and grabs the opportunity to kick her while she’s down. It’s bullying plain and simple. Take it from someone who turned to bullying after being a victim of it. There is no justifiable excuse for it.
Also, please point me to the panel where Joyce is asking to be rewarded for changing her point of view. Is it the shocked reaction in panel 2 to when she reacts to an accusation out of nowhere?
Lumino talked about Roz’s “inability to forgive” on display. That’s what brought up that part. To a certain extent, I doubt Joyce even remembers her earlier well-meaning insult to Roz, so she hasn’t asked for forgiveness or even acknowledge that she’s done wrong.
So, I’m going to go ahead and say it, Roz, in both the fact that she’s speaking a necessary truth that cannot be said in a way that protects the receiver’s comfort, and in that she’s reacting to a change in attitude that, very easily, becomes an erasure of one’s own past wrongdoings (when Roz was subject to some vehemence of one of those) there is *some* justification.
I’m not saying Roz should have done what she did in the way she did. But, I am going to say that a narrative that relies upon those who have been wronged to, independently, imagine and carry out the perfectly moral response is toxic.
Yes dorothy people are difficult :< ; Goodluck pandering both
Roz and Joyce-type for your election…
While I agree that Roz outburst were uncalled for. We should remember that weeks ago Joyce did basically same thing to her by (implicitly calling her "decayed flower that lost all it's petals" due to her pre-marital hanky-panky) even though Joyce did it out of concern (based on her belief), I believe Roz took it as an insult. Knowing Roz, she probably already tired to patronizing the same type of people like Joyce over and over again.
Discrimination and bashing hurt you know? Not to mention when it's constantly happening. Look Sarah for example, while her case might be different from Roz, the end result were same; an angry bitter person.
Yes Joyce is changing. But it just because Becky whom is her bestfriend happened to be LGBT+ (and likely would be "re-educated" by his father). Did she spent at least similar amount of effort to Ethan? (At least she should said, it's okay it's who you are, but no, she agreed to be his "beard"!). Joyce wouldn't change, if it isn't happened to someone close to her!
But unfortunately that's how life's work. Wherever you're born, and what kind of upbringing you have were matter of luck (Yes, people does born on honor-killing village in India or Nice, tolerant house at London). And people tend to follow the belief of their parent or caregiver (Because indoctrination were most effective in FORMATIVE AGE)
And no. Not all people actively trying to consider both sides of argument or try to play devil's advocate. Some told (during their formative age) it were sin, other simply didn't have energy to do it (it's not their main concern).
TLDR; Joyce were unfortunate to be grew up at her discriminatory family (whom also unfortunate to be indoctrinated such by their parents). Roz were tired too constantly explain the effing same thing to people like joyce while constantly bashed. She assumed Joyce were a hypocrite that only willing to change when the stake were personal.
Summary :
People should be more like Joe. His Goal of Life were attaining the maximum happines.
After all, we are just starstuffs. And in the grand scale of thing? Ignorable.
Nice comment about Dorothy – this is what you have to juggle to have a political career, something Robbin knows…
About Ethan… Joyce DID accept him as gay and did what he asked her to. She didn’t break up with him after he revealed himself to be gay, she kept up their relationship that HE asked him to have with her. A bad decision, yes, but Ethans bad decision.
Yup, Roz is hurt… and she found an opportunity to do retaliate to Joyce and she took it. It is maybe understandable, but it is nothing close to constructive. Another bad idea.
part of that, however, was based on the vague notion that she would eventually “fix” him. Once again, the difference between abstracts and real people.
For everyone who keeps hating on Joyce (or anyone in the real world) for “only changing their minds when they have a personal stake in it,” I have a question for you.
Let’s say someone tells you that X teacher is awful. A lot of people tell you. But, at the end of the day, you’re thinking “aw, they can’t be as bad as everyone says.” So you take a class with that teacher. And they’re TERRIBLE. And suddenly you believe it.
“Oh, but everyone warned you! It’s your fault!”
People believe evidence they see, not evidence they hear about. It’s just a fact of humanity. No matter who you are or what you believe, things are more important when they effect you personally.
And that’s true of everyone. White gay men care more about gay rights than women’s rights or racial rights. Straight black men care more about racial rights than LGBT or women’s rights. Straight white women care more about women’s rights than LGBT or racial rights. Mix and match for all other minorities/oppressed groups.
And here’s the important thing: THAT DOESN’T MEAN THEY DON’T CARE, AND IT DOESN’T MAKE THEM BAD PEOPLE. But it’s a natural human instinct to care more about the things that harm you personally more than things that harm others. So getting all high and mighty because you had a personal stake in something before someone else did is stupid, ignorant, and judgmental.
So, in how many strips will Roz run into Becky, have a brief conversation before being interrupted by Joyce, and then finally connect the dots when she sees that Becky and Joyce are friends?
One one hand, Joyce needs to hear this from someone, and it might as well be Roz. It’s one thing for Joyce to accept Becky and Ethan, and to feel that when she was Confronted with Homosexuality, she reacted in a way that was consistent with her faith in her personal relationship with Jesus.
It’s another thing for Joyce to realize that she herself has hurt Roz and people like her, by supporting other people’s rights to a Jesus that condones disapproving and punishing.
BUT Roz needs to learn that there is a time and a place for confrontation, and this class is not the place to call Joyce on her background shit. This is literally the place to study gender, and Roz is not the person to evaluate how well Joyce is learning her lessons.
AFTER class is when Roz can yell at Joyce as much as she wants.
As someone who’s been the smug jerk sitting in the back of class and mouthing off at the Christian sitting up front, I understand exactly where Roz is coming from.
And she is totally wrong.
This will do nothing except make Roz feel superior, and make everyone else uncomfortable. She won’t change anyone’s mind, she won’t make Joyce come to any new realizations, and at worse she might make Joyce become even more entrenched.
You are not the person to do this. This is not the place to do this. And this doesn’t even need to be done. All this can possibly do it be counter-productive.
This is just a personal attack one someone in the public place based on self righteousness. Leslie is so right to kick her out and I wouldn’t let her back into the classroom without writing Joyce a personal letter of apology.
she shouldn’t have done it, but it needed to be done. Joyce may not have ever turned a lgbt person away, but the church’s beliefs were her own, and she has to own up to that.
This had nothing to do with helping Joyce own up to anything. It had to do with Roz feeling superior because she got to kick the “fundie” when she was down. Roz is a self righteous narcissistic bongo, and anything she says that has any value is merely an example of a broken watch.
Dude wants to call Roz the b word that sounds like witch but it comes out as Bongo. That fact they want to use this word in this situation makes their argument way less compelling
Potentially, to some. It’s not how it equates in my head. In my speech I tend to treat it as a feminine form of asshole (which for some reason I don’t apply to females), with no more or less intended impact. However if others consider it more significant, I shall refrain.
A girl who’s a bongo is assertive and doesn’t care about being nice. A male bongo is a weak willed feminine whiner. Thus the conclusion of the word is the most abrasive, stong willed women is on the level of the weakest, wussiest male. If she’s being an asshole call her an asshole, everyone has one. You needed a different word to apply to women says way more about you
Assuming everybody makes the same connection as you or puts that much thought into it. I’m not that deep. Really I just appropriated words already being used as negative labels and applied them to those who cause pain to others primarily because they can, but don’t qualify for the title of “Scum” or “pile of infectious human waste”. Since it does hold different significance to others, I’ve already stated I shall refrain.
Also I must insist that there is a fundamental difference between an assertive person who doesn’t care if they offend (which describes basically my entire family and most of the people with whom I associate) and those who go out of their way to hurt people. Joyce is generally assertive, Walky is assertive, in most of her dealings, Roz is just assertive. Here Roz is actively trying to hurt Joyce. That’s different. Knowing (or even just thinking you know) what needs to be said and being brave enough to say it isn’t the same thing as actively trying to hurt someone.
it’s irrelevant where she gets the beliefs from as long as 1. religious belief 2. they are the same anti-gay BS. However, what I said in the previous comment and what i meant are a bit different. i’m gonna copy someone else’s comment to correct it cuz I’m tired “For all the talk about Joyce’s growth, she had been missing a key part of that, owning up to personal failings. Her outburst is just against the church, as if her hands were clean.
She’s been as understanding as her upbringing has prepared her. But she’s called being gay abnormal, taken it on herself to help “fix” a gay man, found it necessary to look for loopholes in scripture to help her gay best friend.
Her real growth is going to be from seeing how she fits into all of this. Roz is out of line, but this epiphany wasn’t complete without her.”
I’m confused. You’re saying just having Religious beliefs is grounds for attack? As for Joyce’s outburst, it was a relatively brief outburst from someone who’s just been exposed to flaws in her entire world view. She hasn’t had any time to wrap her mind around the full ramifications of it or even process it all. Of course she hasn’t processed any guilt about it, she hasn’t been given a chance before Roz started with the emotional curbstomping.
And the fact is, that even if she’d immediately thrown herself prostrate before her teacher and begged forgiveness (as this is apparently the correct response), the result would have still been the same, because Roz saw the “fundie” in crisis and decided to start kicking.
once again, tired. I in no way believe having religious beliefs means people should attack you. I also don’t believe Roz should have done what she did, but believe it contributed or will contribute to Joyce’s growth. She still needs/needed to make the connection that church=her. I’m aware she’s nondominational (although i don’t think it matters considering the context) but the beliefs of the church are very much the beliefs she had, and recognizing the connection will allow her to question her other beliefs without the need of a runaway.
Good manners dictate that one gives someone a reasonable chance to come to terms with it themselves before doing the pushing. Joyce hasn’t even had a chance to fully process what she’s heard and what it actually means aside from an immediate emotional response.
Not only that, but who says that equating the church with herself is the right connection? The vast majority of her experiences with it is in isolation with no awareness of what’s outside that, as a child. Her entire story arc is basically leaving that childhood behind and stepping out on her own, when all the decisions of what to do and what to believe are hers and hers alone. At this point, nobody has a right to tell her how she should feel.
“When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.”
Or maybe she’s mad that the fundie girl that called her tainted is suddenly pretending she never did anything bad like the mean church is doing to her friend. Joyce has not only internalized the teachings of the church, she repeated them and so acted and judged Roz in a very demaining and hurtful way. And now Joyce, while taking an important step, isn’t owning up to any hurt SHE might have caused. Roz isn’t right to lash out, but she’s not here to lead Joyce go any revalation, Roz is her own person and is acting as such
If Mike had said any of this to Joyce everyone would be praising him.
Joyce needed to hear this.
Yeah it’s harsh. But she needed to hear this. This will lead to more of that “character development” y’all like so much.
But whatever, Roz is just a bongo. She should be NICE to the girl who has openly judged her since day one! Gosh, how dare she not have psychic powers so she can immediately know what Joyce has been going through! Stupid!!!!!
But Mike WOULDN’T say this. And he wouldn’t strike now either. Mike strikes in the aftermath, when someone is getting up again. But he also strikes to correct someone’s form. What he’d probably do is mention how Joyce was going back to believing in the same group which almost raped Becky and caused her to have to run away from home, and only when Joyce began considering not being mad at the church anymore.
No, the thing is, Mike says things that need to be said. Mike would’ve said something like “Interesting how you now are upset at the Church when before you said you hated homosexuality.” He would not have done what Roz had done. Also, Mike has seen Joyce’s turn around, and he said nothing. He didn’t comment when Joyce said she’d kissed a girl. Walky however, did.
While Mike is an asshole, he knows when to say things, and when to stay quiet.
Yes, but he is a master of phrasings. He would have said it better than you or I could manage. All hail to the king. (And because he married both Dina and Amber, that makes Dina, Amber, and Amazi Girl queens!
I don’t even know where to begin. I’ve spent an hour writing, erasing and editing this post to try to explain why Roz is wrong to react this way, but the thing is, I shouldn’t have to. Reprimanding someone for learning to think for themselves and become better people is the absolute stupidest thing I can think of. Being met with scorn and resentment for doing the right thing isn’t going to motivate anyone. At worst, it could make them retreat back into their comfort zone of fundamentalism and ignorance.
Nothing is worth that risk if someone is already making an effort to become a better person. Roz isn’t being clever. She’s not calling Joyce out on hypocrisy. She’s telling her that it doesn’t matter what she does in the present or the future, because she’ll only ever be judged for her past. Noone is saying that Joyce changing her mind erases what she used to believe. I’ve done things I will never forgive myself for, hurtful things, because the moment I do is the moment I say it wasn’t wrong. When you know that what you used to believe is wrong, you don’t need others to remind you. Trust me, it’s the first thing you do when you look in the mirror every morning.
I’m guessing Roz view is based on the idea that this is too little, too late. All this crap still happened while Joyce was blissfully off in fundieland, it didnt magically start when she went to college. And yes, she will always be judged by her past, because your past doesnt just go away when you start behaving like a decent person. That is a mark she will have to carry for the rest of her life regardless of what she does from this point.
After a certain age, you are expected to understand that actions have consequences. What did Joyce think, that all those gay teens her church spew bile over went to live on a nice farm somewhere? She’s almost an adult for gods sake.
A lot of churches don’t actually spend their time openly spewing bile at gay people to the children of their congregations. Many don’t talk about it at all, especially to the young, impressionable ones. A lot of churchgoers who claim to hold to the literal interpretation of the text themselves don’t say much on the topic unless directly confronted with it.
Also, Joyce was sheltered and home-schooled in a fundamentalist environment throughout her childhood. Regardless of state and federal laws on the subject, a person doesn’t spring into full maturity once they pass an arbitrary age limit. Some have to “grow up” fast. Others take longer to put aside their childhood and start accepting adulthood (some never do).
This is Joyce’s first steps into actual adulthood where her choices and beliefs are totally her own. So far she’s taken a stand against her parents over Dorothy and has now openly denounced the institution that has dominated her entire life because of its treatment of the LGBT community. And we’re, what? A couple months in to it? Keep in mind that the entirety of her understanding of gays before this point probably consisted of her pastors reading Romans and Leviticus at her and rewarding her for quoting bible verses.
Her transition into grasping the real world is not only commendable, it’s remarkably smooth and fast. Roz is a… bongo.
When you’re raised in that mindset, not even having been given the tools to understand that other mindsets are valid (like, literally — you question, you literally die in a lake of fire)…honestly, I’m so glad Joyce is figuring this stuff out now. It takes A LOT for someone raised in such a toxic environment to stand up publicly and say “THIS IS NOT OKAY,” especially when they’re still a Christian. Deconstructing what you’ve been taught as the absolute truth is really fucking hard work, and doing it publicly in a space where you expect support and being shot down for not believing it soon enough is fucking shitty.
So because it took her longer than people who weren’t indoctrinated in a sheltered, conservative and bigoted environment, she should be expected to change just as quickly?
I agree. This is basically gate-shutting. “You don’t know enough about our cause to be in it.” And in the worst context possible (in the middle of class, just after an obviously very emotional and personal outburst).
The only purpose this serves is to establish that Roz has better “social awareness” (or whatever) -cred than Joyce.
Roz is wrong for reacting this way, but like I said above, I don’t think it’s simply because Joyce was learning the wrong way. It’s because she put everything on an external church, and didn’t own up to where her own sex-is-evil judgments were in line with them.
To be honest, this is growth I have wanted to see in Joyce. Roz is definitely being overbearing on the subject, as she always has been on it and other subjects that razz her politician sister. Until I grew up, I used to love to see the moments when “fundies” could get called out. Now, as a mature adult I can see that neither my views nor theirs are 100% infallible. Indeed, acting like how “open-minded” you are and lording it over someone who is giving their own views a harsh look is just as bad, if not worse. Joyce grew up painfully sheltered. That is true. She should still be allowed the right to revise her views and grow.
I reread this series in it’s entirety over the last 2(ish) weeks… and I realized I need to comment more… Also the word “doctorinization” is thrown around a heck of a lot. Not that that’s a bad thing… just an observation.
Okay, I haven’t had my caffeine yet this morning. I read the 4th panel and thought “isn’t Joyce’s last name Brown?” Took me a moment to realize Roz was saying “Miss Fundamentalist” (possibly some non-Americans might not get the reference).
I think Im going to side with Roz on this one. Mainly because I dont like Joyce and no character development on Earth will remove her fundie stigma in my eyes.
Even if you think the religious are wrong (I agree) it is poisonous to suggest that people are forever tainted by association with bad ideas. People are brought up with ideologies both good and bad, and shaking the bad ones is difficult, even for an adult.
To me, the highest virtues of the pursuit of truth are the willingness to reject ideas on insufficient evidence and the willingness to change one’s mind when evidence is presented.
Vilifying those that are willing to change their minds for good reasons is contemptible.
Reminds me of this one episode of DS9, synopsis follows:
Damar learns that his wife and son, in hiding since the rebellion began, have been found and killed by the Dominion. Weyoun and the Female Changeling both knew that Damar’s family was not involved in the rebellion, but their deaths were ordered anyway. The grieving Damar wonders out loud how anyone could give an order to murder innocent people. Before she can stop herself, Kira asks him the same question (referencing the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor), deepening Damar’s anguish and causing him to leave the room in disgust. Kira immediately regrets her outburst, but Garak tells her that the pain Damar feels now will help him give up his “romanticism” about the past, which in turn will help him lead a new Cardassia after the war.
So… Maybe I kinda see the value in what Roz did? Just a tiny bit?
I don’t think it so much what roz was trying to say but very much in how she was saying it and perhaps why but that is a lot harder to divine in a webcomic.
Regardless the end result does not justify the means (Or does it? I haven’t been keeping up with that debate) so being a bully and excusing that behavior by saying it might help in the long run (you can’t guarantee it will) doesn’t suddenly make bullying right.
You want people to consider your feelings when they speak, this is natural and very much part of LGBT+ communities so why can Roz be excused for not doing something she in turn demands other people do.
Do unto others and all that. Read it in this cool book once.
Damar was actually on Bajor and took part in Cardassia’s military ops. He actually did the things Kira is judging him for. Joyce to the best of my knowledge has never chased a gay child out of their home or really hurt anyone beyond the average that most people hurt other people.
Likewise Kira suffered personal losses at the hands of Cardassia and was in a perfect position to pass judgement since she knew the situation first hand and knew Damar. Meanwhile Roz is just a spoiled brat who doesn’t know shit all about Joyce.
Joyce has already made the leap of understanding. Roz is just being an asshole.
That scene is ds9 is quite different from the scene in this comic. Damar was still viewing the cardassian occupation of Bajor through rose tinted glasses believing it was right and just. Kira was in the weird position of having to help the former oppressors of her people who were now themselves being oppressed whilst being treated with distrust and at times open hostility by some of them. She spoke without thinking and was immediately regretful but as garak pointed out what she said was a necessary wake up call to damar.
Whereas Joyce had already had the wake up call and realisation hence her outburst of outrage the previous strip. Roz wasn’t trying to facilitate any further realisations but was ranting at and verbally bashing Joyce for not realising this sooner and for possibly having been a contributing factor in the past. Furthermore she continued when told to stop and is obviously not regretful of anything she’s said. Given that nobody had asked her to treat Joyce like a hero or had given any reacted to Joyce’s outraged outburst yet IMO Roz rants are way out of line.
Also another difference to note is that damar actively participated in the oppression of Kira’s people whereas Joyce was completely unaware of the church doing anything wrong until just now.
Allow me to add absolutely nothing to the discussion and just say that that scene with Damar and Kiram and the way Damar reacts, is one of my favourite scenes in DS9.
Also more non-DS9 things need DS9 related discussions attached.
The discussion yesterday how Joe was disrupting the lecture and if Leslie should take action against him… This is where the line is drawn.
Joe took a few moments to pose and grumble, then he sat down. Roz attacked a fellow student about a very personal and sensitive topic, and Leslie is clearly trying to make the classroom a safe space for this discussions. Not cool.
Roz disrupted class in the middle of a very important teaching session about a cause she claims to advocate. It takes lots of time and effort to build the sort of classroom chemistry Leslie had achieved here, and Roz destroyed it in order to brag that she already knew it.
Roz strikes me as one of those people who think being loud and obnoxious about being tolerant makes her a decent enough person and that if one of her friends ended up almost being disowned for being gay she’d raise her hands and go, “Woah, you expect me to HELP?”
I admit it is presumptuous, I know less about Roz than I do about Joyce, but what I do know about Joyce is that she’s been more charitable and helpful than Roz. That is the reason why I can’t help but think she’s more of a jerk than Joyce in this scene. Roz’s technically right, her WORDS are right, but anyone can say right words, that is something that can be done by literally any person. Especially if you’re using them just to get in someone’s face.
Roz isn’t that kind of person though. We’ve seen her go up to Joyce and offer help and support when she saw she needed it, without asking prying questions or forcing her into anything she didn’t want. We’ve seen her campaigning and spreading awareness, she’s someone who believes in what she says. Whether or not you think her anger and bitterness towards Joyce is justified, you can’t deny she’s someone who takes an active role in issues she thinks are important.
And honestly, Roz hasn’t seen Joyce be charitable to anyone, all she’s seen are lectures on ‘your soul is like a flower and you’re ripping off it’s petals’, or accusations of being in a coven when she tries to reach out to her. Her perspective is completely different than ours.
tbh I personally put sheltering a person over “spreading awareness”.
Has anyone ever had their minds changed by a person standing on a sidewalk? I tried campaigning once. The only person who answered back to my cries of, “YOU WANT TO HELP GAY RIGHTS?” are people who already want to help gay rights (or people who sheepishly go, “I’d love to, I love gay people, I just need to get to work, but I don’t hate the gays, just to be clear” no strangers it’s okay I get it, I don’t think you’re homophobic, it’s okay). It’s for people who already agree with you but aren’t aware of certain laws that need passing or blocking.
… I kind of went on a tangent there.
Anyway, I wasn’t trying to imply Roz is COMPLETELY TERRIBLE. Yeah she handed Joyce a card. But would she take the same kinds of risks that Joyce did? And not risks that affect other people more than her like having a sex video that happens to be politically inconvenient for her sister, but actual personal risks with real benefits for others?
I guess I’m just a little defensive of Joyce because she does more than pretty much everyone but there’s always opportunities for people to snipe at her for her ATTITUDE or for BEING RAISED IN THE WRONG CULTURE and it’s like, are all these little “Take Thats” really doing anything other than making her feel guilty?
Joyce has always been terrible about accepting personal responsibility for the things she has said and done. If I had to guess, it might be from being taught by church that personal responsibility isn’t even a thing– it’s God and Satan acting through her. Roz is demanding that Joyce claim some responsibility for the hurtful things she has said and done: “Until today, the church was YOU!”
Congratulations, Roz, you have demonstrated your ethical superiority over someone who was raised in an unethical environment and indoctrinated with beliefs which don’t match yours. Tell me, Roz, aside from Pro-Sex and liberal acceoptance of others, do you do any charity work? Do you help the poor? Do you do any of the things Joyce probably did in her free time? No? You mean you might not be PERFECT IN ALL THINGS? SHOCK.
I don’t think I would be adding much to the conversation by simply saying that Roz’s actions in this strip are cruel (which they are), I would like to take a moment to say that the Dumbiverse Roz seems to be quite a bit different from Walkyverse Roz. This Roz is pretty blatantly outspoken on her opinions of others, where as the previous Roz was a noted “phony” who tried to get on everyone’s good side. Either way, she’s certainly adept at pushing Leslie’s buttons.
I personally think that religion is a bit more complicated than many make it out to be. First of all, when one says “the Church”, one could be referring to Christianity in general or a specific denomination. One could be talking about popes, cardinals, and elders, or one could be talking about the everyday churchgoer. And that makes a lot of difference.
I like to believe that every human being has their own, personal “religion” of sorts – their own set of beliefs and ideals. Whether you believe in God or not, whether you believe in gay marriage or not, whether you believe that Michael Bay is the devil or not, etc. Even though Joyce attends the same Church as her parents, singing the same hymns, listening to the same sermons, and reading the same scriptures, she still has a different interpretation of her religion from her parents.
I know someone who identifies as Catholic, but is pro-choice, despite the pro-life stance commonly associated with Catholicism. One doesn’t invalidate the other; you don’t need to be one or the other. If you believe everything else and follow in all the other traditions that makes Catholicism what it is – such as Saints, transubstantiation (I hope I spelled that right), using rosaries. – it seems a little farfetched that one belief that differs from the majority would make someone not Catholic (Or at least a belief that doesn’t rank high on the list of Catholic beliefs – if you don’t believe in God, THEN you might want to reconsider identifying as Catholic).
I also don’t believe that religion is wrong, per se, but I don’t believe that there is ONE path. I believe that every person is entitled to their own beliefs and ideals. Go with what works for you. Whether you’re Catholic, Protestant, Quaker, Mormon, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic, Pastafarian… whatever! You do you. Just stay away from anything that involves human sacrifice. Or Michael Bay.
The Church with a capital ‘C’ is generally used to refer to all of Christianity. Especially true in Joyce’s situation, what with her being non-denominational.
A lot of the comments here (plus Roz herself, actually) remind me so strongly of how people react when they find out I was once a fundamentalist (and went to Bob Jones University, no less). I wrote about it a while ago here, but for those who would rather not click a link, here’s some of the more specific-to-this-comic-and-instance thoughts I had:
“You think we were weak? We were stupid? We had it coming? For what, for growing up in the wrong environment? Not defecting as children? Not knowing what wasn’t taught or available to learn without significant punishment & loss? Being afraid to lose everything once we knew? Nope. Take a seat. Shut your mouth. Enjoy your “objectivity” & absolute knowledge of how you’d react in situations you’ve never been in.”
(I fully admit to being really angry when I wrote this originally, but I still stand by it.)
I agree with Roz. I am a trans woman and I was expelled from home because my parents are fanatic catholics. Just because they “accept” me now doesn’t mean I’ll be cute with them. If not for some friends’ help, I’d be streetwalking for a living. No, I don’t think Joyce deserves any kind of sympathy. She still has a lot to learn about really “accepting” people and Roz has no reason to be easy on her.
Wait, does that include the scene right outside of church when BILLIE says it? If not… CORRECTIVE EDITING! <delayed because I actually have to get to the page)
Wait, no more fun word-swapping? Aww. 🙁 Also, is this a temporary thing you can turn off whenever you want to, or will that turn all of our bongos into… *shudder*?
It can be used as an insult against a man, but it takes on different meanings– such as being weak or maudlin or otherwise unmanly. Does it lack these meanings where you live?
I want to thank you for this. I thought it was funny yesterday that I saw some people using that word about a character sitting in a gender studies class. But – no matter how silly and kind I tried to make my reply, I was worried that I’d just make things worse by pointing it out. Then I come back today to tons of bongos. Thank you.
Long time lurker, first time posting [woooo, (my) first post – sorry, Willis].
I think the only person that’s actually right in today’s strip is Leslie (shocking absolutely no-one). Roz does have a point, though the whole raging thing seems to come a bit out of left-field, and is certainly inappropriate for the setting and company. She also has a point concerning Dorothy (who so many people seem to be head over heels for in many strips, for reasons that completely escape me) – it strikes me that the correct response to some of the things Joyce has said isn’t to silently go along with it, as Dorothy so often has done, but to point out that she’s wrong, though not with the vitriol Roz shows here.
Ironically, I think the right way to approach the stupid ridiculous crap that so often comes out of Joyce’s mouth was the one used by the character that is supposedly the most inept at social interaction here (which is yet ANOTHER reason why I hope I got the gravatar thingie working correctly):
@JBento:Joyce’ appeal is similar to Archie Bunker’s. Yes, they hold a bunch of views that are either factually wrong or *merely* harmful (to the people they’re views of, to the people who interact with those people, to her own perceptions, etc.). But they’re a)absolutely honest b)don’t respond to being ‘beaten’ or ‘defeated’ with the violence the entities that oppressed them into these views use to enforce the meme c)are much more holding to the conditioning that the viewpoint came from that the view itself.
By way of example:Once Archie Bunker, well known bigot that happens to be as generically white as network TV could make him, was sitting at a table in a bar with a bunch of coworkers. He expressed that he couldn’t do something because he didn’t have an excuse to his wife for the missing time. A white coworker states that Bunker could say he was at his house and Bunker responds with “Sure, she’d believe that.”. The black coworker states that Bunker could say he was at his house and he responds with “She wouldn’t believe that.” The joke is that Bunker’s a racist and wouldn’t be at a black guys house…even though it’s being told by them all having a lunch together and Bunker treating them all as the people they are not by some artificially invoked status/caste.
Joyce is told Ethan is gay by Ethan. To Joyce, in Joyce’ world view, this means he like everyone is a fallen sinner in a fallen world he just has a grasp on which particular of God’s automatically righteous commandments he’s more tempted to break. Sure, we may want Dina to explain to Joyce that Ethan was exposed to a surplus of estrogen in gestation and this has resulted in some physiological differences including perceiving males as attractive rather than females. But the appeal of the Joyce character (particularly when juxtaposed with the Mary character)is tha instead of “SKREEE! You’re one of them!” or conspiritorial shunning she reacts with a)who she really is and that is an open to new people, see the good in them, genuinely kind person on her path to enlightenment b)the side of her upbringing a person like that would cling to, the message of love others that post-modern Christians claim Jesus spread. Is it the ‘right’ behavior…maybe not, considering Amber. But the character Joyce is more ‘noble’ as any “I define myself by my religion” character presented (her parents, Mary as opposed to Ethan who might define himself as gay rather than Jewish or Billie who wanted to define herself as cheerleader rather than Christian).
Now is Roz’ actions correct? For the characterization-Rox identifies as an activist exactly for these issues. She should call bullshit (whether it is or not) on all of this and that includes people like Joyce. Are Dorothy’s actions correct? For the characterization-Dorothy is a future president of America in her own mind, and that means understanding hipsters and their contributions with the same accord as ‘muricans. She should accept Dorothy as a friend and a good person and help her as such (advice, shoulder to cry on, etc.) while still being in command enough to point out when she’s trying to inflict herself on others like she did when Dorothy wanted to condemn her activities with Walky.
Now sure, Dumbing of Age’s use of Becky is sticking the landing like Dr. McNinja’s sticking the landing with the use of King Radical. But it does show that these characters have been built on a foundation & framework of decades in the making. And that includes their interactions.
Congratulations Mr. Willis, on not only titling the strip with relelvance, but managing to also pre-emptively title the comments section.
Seriously though, barring a few threads, the comments provoked by this strip are really interesting. Many make good arguments to support a variety of views. I feel like I’ve learned something.
Heeey discriminating against people and being mad about discrimination are not equivalent, even if you’re like SUPER RUDE about discrimination being abhorrent
You’re with Roz on what? That Joyce shouldn’t be praised simply for changing her opinion? Yes, that is both fair and correct except that nobody has suggested anything of the sort unless there is a page missing somewhere.
Or is it the part where one good deed doesn’t erase the actions that have been perpetrated by the church since before she was even born and explicitly blaming her for it?
Joyce had not connected herself to her church and actions until Roz spoke out.
She had disconnected herself – sort of – from her church but she hadn’t fully explored the ramifications of her actions and decisions vis-a-vis Becky past and present until Roz, rather forcefully laid it out for her.
Not many people do. It’s only natural that people think their chosen beliefs and ideologies can only be a force good in the world rather than evil.
Some Christians blame their Church for problems like the soi-distant abuse and disconnect of problems with LGBT teens, for example, but conveniently leave themselves out of the equation even though it’s their membership – money in many cases – that sustains and helps whatever church they’re part of. In the previous strips, Joyce was part of the problem, not the solution.
It’ll be fun watching Joyce work out that her “god” is different to her church’s, um, versions of whatever god they promote … oh, bongo, bongo, bongo, the fireworks will fly!
I’ve been actively, openly, and directly hurt by the catholic church in a very real way. And I don’t mean ‘the influence of the church as caused this environment in which I struggle’, I literally mean the church, as an organization, has looked at me, an individual who was struggling, and went out of their way to alienate me and keep me away from getting help. Consciously. I was literally rejected, I think I still have a letter somewhere about how I would be a ‘bad influence’ and therefore could not be allowed.
When I was 8. And in deep, deep trouble.
And when that happens, you get this…anger. This deep, intense anger. I don’t want to say anything negative about the catholic church, and that itself makes the anger worse. Because this is a cult (they call themselves that, guys) that made things SO MISERABLE for me. They do SO much harm, but for some reason I’m expected to just sit here and be accepting and tolerant and respectful.
And I just – I can’t. I don’t think that’s fair to me. I think that if you get hurt, you should be allowed to say whatever the hell you want about the thing that hurt you.
I just feel – silenced? Dismissed? Denied?
I’m sure there are other people out there in the same boat as me who understand. Many of them. I just wonder if there are people who’ve not had that experience who do.
There’s an important distinction between “the Church” and “some people who associate themselves with the Church”. Are you sure it was the former, and not the latter, which hurt you?
#notallcatholics?
It’s on the church to decide whether to endorse or excommunicate the people that harm others. It doesn’t matter if “the police” hurts an innocent person versus if “a dirty cop” hurts an innocent person– the former is still responsible for the latter. If a dirty cop hurts an innocent person, then the police has also failed to keep that dirty cop out of their force, failing to uphold the law among themselves just as those Catholics have failed to uphold their moral standards among themselves.
You’re absolutely right the Catholic Church as an institution and doctrine has to bear responsibility for the darker elements of what’s being said. However, JOYCE, is not responsible for any of this and Roz’s high horse regarding her is bullying. She sees someone emotionally vulnerable, traumatized, and hurting then uses it as a chance to prey on her. She’s EXACTLY like the people she condemns.
You’re far too clever for me; but I notice you did not answer my question.
If people did not go to church, the church would not be a church.
Or, if you like, by associating yourself explicitly and vocally with a church you give explicit approval to the church’s goings on – like LGBT charities – but you do not give approval to Bob eating babies, assuming Bob isn’t a minister. Although you may want to report Bob to the police if you find him doing that.
As I said before, Joyce endorsed – unwittingly but a lack of knowledge or curiosity does not get you a get-out-of-jail free card – her Church’s endeavor. Hell, she did it with nearly frame until Dorothy and then Becky came along.
The church is people who meet both of these two criteria:
1) they associate themselves with the church
2) they follow the ideology and rules of the church.
The most important rules of pretty much all the Christian denominations are these two:
“You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the greatest and the first commandment.
The second resembles it: You must love your neighbour as yourself.”
If someone doesn’t meet them, they can’t be considered a member of the Church.
Accepting God into your hearts is like…supporting animal rights.
But supporting PETA isn’t just about supporting animal rights. It’s about hyper-sexualizing women and fat-shaming and all sorts of horrible nasty things.
And if you give PETA even a penny, that’s what you’re supporting. Even if all you want to do help the baby bunnies.
Well, the Catholic Church is very regimented. Correcte if I’m wrong, but your superiors speak for the Church, and you have little recourse if one of them wrongs you.
I don’t mean to be a giant dick, but Joyce isn’t Catholic.
HOWEVER
I understand what you are saying. I get your pain. I can’t feel it in the way you do, because we are all unique with unique experiences. My dad’s friends have been molested, and he himself came very close to that same fate. That is inexcusable, and a main reason why both my mother and he have excommunicated.
But I do want to say this. On the topic of LGBTQ+ issues, people can change. And while you have every right to be full of fury, when people are showing signs of growth and change, being cruel to them is not okay. Being upset at the Church is one thing, being upset at individuals is another. Roz being angry at Joyce for growing is very strange and concerning–at least the way she went about it.
Hate the Church all you want, but when people are trying to change for the better, help them grow.
From Roz’s point of view (and, I wouldn’t be surprised, ok then’s, too), you can’t just separate the two, without actually separating the two.
It’s what Charles Willoughby has been trying to stress in these comments, too. So long as Joyce still views that structure, that society, as her church, she continues to support its abuses–just as a modern-day Catholic who happens to continue putting money in the plate is associating, voluntarily, with the protectors of child abusers and the opponents of women’s rights, worldwide. And being a moderate US Catholic who votes Democratic or even Green or Socialist doesn’t change the fact that every dollar in the plate is a few cents towards further atrocities.
Joyce isn’t a Catholic, but I can damn well guarantee that any church her parents would be comfortable in is also one that would turn away LGBT teens who didn’t want to be ‘corrected’ from their charities. And until she’s willing to say, “This is not a group I will stand with”, Roz has every right to call her out on the hypocrisy.
I see your point and through what you just said, I now get what that hypocrisy comment meant. Because Joyce said that she would be willing to take back her statement, she is being a hypocrite.
So because she’s aware that her comment is made in the heat of the moment, so she will need to reevaluate it later to make sure she knows what she really meant, she is a hypocrite? I don’t know… her way of saying “Yeah, I’m angry! This is what I think now, but I’m aware I may not be able to think right now” doesn’t seem hypocritical.
No seriously, fuck people. Most of you never had to do a damn thing your entire life to start believing the way you do, you just slid into it. Joyce had to get over intense sheltering and near brainwashing to get where she is. Do you not understand that most people won’t change strongly held beliefs even if they’re whacked over the head with them? But she IS. That makes her a good person more than anyone else who stands from their hill that they barely, if ever climbed, and blaming those who were born lower on the hill for starting out there.
Want to talk about hypocrisy now?
(P.S. Please somebody put this in nicer, more helpful terms. I’m too angry at all the unforgiving and self-satisfied viewpoints to be nice right now.)
Yesterday, Joyce expressed that the church was guilty of wrongdoing but she conveniently left out the detail that Joyce herself was ever guilty of same. Roz is (yes, perhaps too angrily) connecting the dots that Joyce’s actions until today have been exactly the same as the church’s actions.
Because she wasn’t guilty of anything. Did Joyce throw people to the streets?
Did she refuse to help a person because of their orientation? Last time I checked, no and no.
Yesterday: “…Or they will be taken in, but on the condition that they be rehabilitated.” Joyce is doing this exact thing to Ethan, and until recently has merrily decried homosexuality as a sin that should be corrected. She should acknowledge that she is doing wrong, but her wording yesterday evades her own personal responsibility in it. Roz is reminding Joyce to judge not lest she be judged, in a way: Joyce should judge herself just as much as she is judging the church. It’s not really personal growth if you don’t realize your own behavior needs to change!
If new knowledge doesn’t cause Joyce to make different decisions in the future, it’s not an epiphany– it’s just trivia. Roz wants to make sure Joyce can make the connection, because Roz has not seen Joyce’s progress related to Becky. She hasn’t seen a lot of Joyce’s experiences! But it’s important to remember that Roz ultimately wants to help, not hurt.
Keep in mind that the situation with Ethan is a bit more… complex. Yes, Joyce mistakenly believes that she can “change” Ethan. Yet there are other factors… she also feels “safe” around him (as Amazigirl figured out), and Ethan himself wants to avoid the stigma of being gay.
So, Joyce is still wrong, but perhaps not as wrong as she could have been. And even before Becky arrived, she seemed to be having some second thoughts about her relationship with Ethan.
The point wasn’t “exactly how wrongly is Joyce treating queer people?”
It’s “Joyce calls out the church for treating queer people wrongly but does not appear to call out herself, implying a lack of self-awareness that allows her to perpetuate her own wrongdoing.” Roz doesn’t necessarily know for sure that Joyce HAS done wrong, but their every past interaction makes it very easy for Roz to guess. Roz appears to have gotten through to Joyce, though, judging by Joyce’s expression in the last panel.
Joyce hasn’t spoken to Ethan yet today. I hope she does soon.
I dunno. There’s a side of my family that’s very religious, and for a while, they really tried their best to “brainwash” me with their beliefs.
I went along with it for a while, until I was 12 and realized this religion business was totally ridiculous. I walked out. I was 12. (There are still people in my extended I already could think for myself.
I guess some people simply don’t like to question the world around them. It’s more comfortable to blissfully go along with the flow.
I seriously doubt that someone with an upbringing as rigid as Joyce’s could rebel at age 12. All indications are that IU represents the first place she’s had some freedom from the clutches of her parents.
Well, I guess the background does change things… Most of the people here aren’t religious so those religious people in my family were the ones that stood out. But still.
My cousin still claims out loud that the earth is 4000 years old and that Satan is beind science and the education system. I guess it’s beyond hope for some people.
Huh. Do you think that God may actually wear a read hood and that there may be a generation between him and Satan? I mean seriously, why else would Earth be going to Hell in a handbasket if no one was receiving it.
I think there’s also the fact Roz doesn’t really show any inclination outside of her chosen expertise. When has Roz does anything outside of championing “pro-sex”? Joyce frequently talks about charity work, helping people, and is SHELTERING A LESBIAN IN HER APARTMENT. What, EXACTLY, is Roz doing to help the gay cause? Or hell, the world at large, other than shooting her mouth off? Actions speak louder than words w/ Joyce.
Well, so far she’s educated Leslie on the horrors that homosexuals go through at the hands of unrepentant monsters like Joyce and the Westboro Baptist Church for which she is apparently to blame if that last panel is any indication.
you’re right that roz basically only does sex pos activism, and all she’s done other than giving out condoms for planned parenthood was entirely framed in her sister’s political presence, rendering the message rather meaningless imo. she might do more stuff away from the fourth wall or she might just think that being there for moral support for gsrm when they need it and calling out people who aren’t is enough ally work in a world that normally won’t do even that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Excepting, of course, Roz doesn’t know anything ABOUT Joyce other than she’s a fundamentalist. She gets to basically say, “you’re a biogoted horrible person, unlike me” excepting, of course, Joyce is sheltering a gay youth in her apartment. Roz is probably not doing anything similar. Now, Roz can’t know that’s what Joyce is doing, but she’s shooting her mouth off about someone just because Joyce superficially fits the stereotypes in her head.
She is sheltering a gay youth… While in a relationship with a self denying gay man, whom she supports in his efforts to remain in the closet. Roz hands out condoms on her free time, and I am going t go out on no limb at all and saying that if her closest friend in the world came to her in trouble, Roz would help. Joyce doesn’t get bonus points for helping her best friend in the world, she is just not getting penalized for turning her away.
I have a close family member who, when he gets into a disagreement with someone, decides he already has an intimate understanding of their viewpoint and starts angrily rebutting arguments and defending against personal attacks that nobody has made. I can’t unsee that behavior in Roz right now.
Re-reading this, I think a vital point Roz was making is that, while Joyce has changed her mind, it’s less of an accomplishment and more catching up with basic decent human values (and I know to Joyce it’s been a struggle, but to Roz, and a whole lot of us commentators, it’s as simple a question as possible). She even outright says “until Today, that was you”, meaning she knows Joyce’s views have changed, but that doesn’t exclude her from what she was thinking not a month ago, or the institution she was supporting.
The emphasis however is on “That was you.” The letters are thicker in those three words to point out that that is what Roz is trying to push through. Also, the institution she was supporting was only for as long as she believed the lies that those institutions were helping people, told to her by people she’s never before had a reason to distrust.
Roz is not helping. Confronting Joyce on her past opinions in this manner is not only wrong, it could actually do more harm than good.
I do think Roz is being a jerkass, but that doesn’t make her wrong. Where does Joyce get off suddenly dissociating from an institution she’s readily supported all her life? Suddenly now she’s decided that the injustices to the LGBT community matter because they’ve entered her worldview? How many people has she ignored up until now?
Learn, obviously. If I haven’t been clear: Joyce’s rejection of her religion’s bigotry and horror at the realities LGBT kids have faced is a positive development. However, Joyce’s character development, as invested in it as we are, doesn’t matter to Roz, or really to Becky or Ethan or anyone who’s been kicked out on the streets by their parents. Joyce learned what most of us here already know. Why should Roz be happy that the last horse crossed the finish line?
Because every person that understands, and learns matters.
She really shouldn’t say these things to Joyce. She has no right to scream her down. At this point, she just wants to make Joyce feel bad, and that’s not okay.
She might think that it’s unfair that Joyce gets recognition for learning something she knew a long time, but that doesn’t give her the right to be a jerk about it.
To put it in your metaphor: every horse that makes it over the finish line matters. And later is better than never.
You do realise that this is exactly what Joyce has done, right? She HAS learned. The school year has only lasted 4 weeks, and in those 4 weeks she has survived an attempted rape, met several friends of different sexualities, religions and races, and is sheltering her gay friend from danger. She has never been confronted with people in difficult situations before and as such, hasn’t been able to learn until now, but she is. learning. now.
I hate the idea that anyone would criticize Joyce for coming to this realisation now. She’s young. She’s privileged. And this is the first time she’s ever been forced to check that privilege and honestly, she’s dealing with it pretty well. Yes, she was FUNDAMENTALLY wrong about a lot of things, but she was working with only what her family and her church had told her all her life. Now she has the tools to educate herself she is.
You’re absolutely right. It doesn’t erase the wrong Joyce has done in the past, but if she is to be confronted on it, it should be by someone she can trust who wants to help her change, someone who can help her understand why it was wrong and the damage her prejudice might have caused. Not by someone who is just using her as a punchingbag.
The thing is, has Roz caught up on any other values BUT Sex positivism? Just curious if she does any charity work, helping the poor, or other stuff other than helping sexuality. It’s important, I think, since we got into a discussion about it on RPG.net that you can be above the curve in some issues and retrograde in others.
Something else that has gone uncommented on is Dorothy’s “let a person learn.” It’s a nice moral that I think we can all agree with, but Dorothy is speaking from a perspective of white privilege, and has never had to face Joyce or the Church’s views on the evils of sexuality. It’s easy for Dorothy to be happy that Joyce is learning, but should the same be expected from, say, Becky? Ethan? Billie? Should they be happy that the little fundie girl finally decided to stop viewing them as evil?
If nothing else Dorothy has a better sense than Roz when to take the discussion. In the middle of class, as the teacher repeatedly asks you to be silent, might not be it.
Interesting choice of examples – both Ethan, Billie and Becky know Joyce pretty well and are fully aware of her attitude, and they deal with it in far more constructive ways than Roz. In fact, speaking of privileges, which of those three would you think would be happy with Roz for exploding at Joyce on their behalf.
I certainly don’t think Dorothy is wrong and I agree with her 100%. I just think it’s unfair to expect other people to readily subscribe to the same viewpoint, especially if they’ve had to face prejudice that Dorothy has been fortunate enough to avoid.
Ethan is actively trying to bury his sexuality, and Billie doesn’t seem to consider herself Bisexual, with how she describes “It’s not weird to like girls sometimes” making me think she considers herself “straight with an exception” like Robin did in Shortpacked for a while. Joyce outright told Becky she mattered more, but did she say that to Becky, her best friend, or to Becky, the young woman who was hoisted out of her school by stringent religious viewpoints? Would she have done the same if it wasn’t Becky who came out to her? Joyce has, not necessarily backtracked on Becky, but in a way she showed her support wasn’t as strong as she had initially shown it to be.
Given how Ethan and Billie view their sexuality, I doubt they’d be happy with Roz flipping out on Joyce, if only because they like Joyce more than Roz. But if Ethan came out to a loving family, if his life wasn’t uprooted because of how people reacted to his sexuality, would he be so eager to bury it? Becky, I’m not too sure yet. The last we saw her they parted on frosty terms.
When it comes to Dorothy I think she tried to diffuse the hostile situation more than anything else (much as Leslie, but without the authority/responsibility of a teacher). If the conversation had been held in a more constructive setting I don’t think she would be so quick to jump in. (Roz after class: “Hey, Joyce, about your speech I think you should know that I think…”)
As for how Billie and Ethan views their sexuality… isn’t that the whole point? They have a certain attitude to their sexuality, the know about Joyce and they have chosen to deal with her in ways that doesn’t include Roz-like outbursts. Look at Billie’s combination of gentle coaxing of Joyce “everyone tries it sometimes” and deflection of any power Joyce could have over her “she just has the gay panic”. Billie has made it perfectly clear to Joyce that Joyce has no say in Billie’s sexuality (as she has done to Becky, for that matter), and then they kept on being friends (or shower buddies or whatever they are). That was Billie’s choice. She could have said “fuck off, fundie”, but she didn’t. Because that was not the way she chose to deal with it.
Ethan… you know, I call mulligan on that. There will be a confrontation between them pretty soon. I will have something of interest to say then.
Becky has shown that she is perfectly capable of dealing with Joyce herself. I really don’t think she wants and outsider doing it for her. And what does Roz attitude to Joyce say about Becky? Is she absolved of her part of the church discrimination by being lesbian herself or did she come out “too late”? “Gee, Roz, thanks for telling me that the organization I been a part of my whole life discriminates against people like me. I wouldn’t know anything about that myself, of course.”
Ethan is definitely going to change his tune eventually (given his blatant attraction to Jacob, and I’m pretty sure he’s into Danny). What I was getting at, however, is that Ethan views his sexuality as inherently negative. Something that caused him to be ostracized by his high school peers, that made him lose the esteem of his family, and worst of all, separated him from Amber. He thinks that, if he were straight, everything would be fine and he could take care of Amber for the rest of his life. That’s why I think he’s been okay with dating Joyce, and conversely, if he came out to a loving family, I don’t think he’d be willing to put up with her.
That’s actually a really interesting point about Becky. She’s clearly rejected the bigoted views of her church, but if I recall actually got up in arms when Joyce told her she was dating a “non-Christian.” It’s possible she may still hold onto some of the prejudices she’s built up but has yet to confront.
You are right about Ethan The reason why I’m careful with discussing him and Joyce is that, while there is so, SO much that is wrong with their relationship the discussion tends to be a bit polarizing about who’s fault it is.
I think Ethan is the real problem – he put Joyce in a position where she had to actively reject him or enable his self-sabotaging behavior, but mostly I think that they have not been in a relationship long enough for them to realize how problematic it is yet, and I want to other shoe to drop before I preach from that box any further.
But come to think of it, we have already seen how Ethan reacted to someone calling Joyce out for her part of their relationship. I don’t think he would react more positively to Roz.
Thank you Roz, I think she gets it now Roz, this has been a great learning experience for Joyce, Roz.
Well, Roz can’t really know that, can she? I don’t blame her for trying to make sure. When you’re trying to break through that fundie shell, relentless and aggressive challenging can be very good. Yes, Roz is a jerk, but between her and Mike I think Joyce stands a good chance of learning something.
Unless, of course, it causes her incredible emotional distress and depression. Joyce is not in the strongest state of mind given recent trauma and now she’s being bullied by a bully hiding behind her values to maker feel better. Roz is no different than Mary.
It’s usually distressing and depressing to learn important things, especially important things about yourself. I’m not defending Roz or saying everyone should be more like her, I’m saying Joyce is lucky. Maybe she has a few sad years ahead of her, at the most extreme, but she’ll end up a bigger, more free person who will probably think it was worth it.
I think the biggest thing to learn from Roz is she’s so woefully IGNORANT, that it’s appalling she gets praise. Roz talks about sexual freedom and the repressiveness of the atmosphere on campus as well as the bias against homosexuals. Which, okay, great point. Joyce has suffered an attempted rape and is sheltering a gay youth. Roz is beating her down because it makes her feel better without knowing a damn thing about her. It’s funny, but the character she most resembles is Mary, because she champions “good” to make other people feel evil. **** her.
You’re right. Roz doesn’t know the slightest thing about her – except what Joyce has told Roz. She knows that Joyce is an evangelical, fundamentalist Christian. She knows Joyce is a dyed-red Republican, and aggressively sex-negative. She knows Joyce just managed to figure out something that Roz thinks should be obvious – that Joyce’s viewpoints, and how common they are, have CONSEQUENCES that go far, far beyond a few hurt feelings.
Roz’s ignorance of the entire set of circumstances surrounding Joyce – an ignorance that comes from an actual lack of available information, unlike Joyce’s which comes from not opening her eyes and seeing what the world looks like – is what makes her rant something I can’t condemn outright. Yes, she’s saying the exact wrong thing at the exact wrong time, but coming from the data pool she has, the thing she’s saying would seem RIGHTEOUS.
Shockingly, it turns out that showing your basic humanity when you’re a minority to people tends to change people more than yelling at them. We’ve SEEN it with Joyce and Dorothy. Roz, of course, isn’t interested in helping Joyce. She’s interested in hurting her so she can feel self-righteous.
It’s bullying pure and simple. Roz is fed up with the injustices and hurt and self-righteousness of the christian fundamentalists and most of all she’s fed up with her own impotence at changing their minds. Now, she’s given an opportunity she hasn’t had before, a fundie in an unusual vulnerable position, and she grabs her chance to lash out all her anger at once to hurt the object of her rage, blaming her for all the wrongs she’s witnessed at the hands of the church and making her feel responsible for it.
In other words, compensating for her own frustration by hurting someone else.
This is a good point too. I think Roz is right that it takes more than this to be on the “good” side, but right now her reaction is basically just fury at the prospect someone like [strong]Joyce[/strong] might ever make the claim.
“If you want to see someone’s true character, give them power.” (Any amount will do.)
Slightly modified from the Lincoln.
Turns out a lot of people will start “punching down” just as eagerly and viciously, if not more so, to “defend” their newly elevated position. It’s almost like pack dominance behavior is wired into us or something…
Yeah, I know. I should give Joyce a break, just like I am arguing for. But this is different than bashing on her… I think? Okay, it’s bad. But still, Joyce will have to learn to accept evolution at some point!
Yes, I’m aware this is mostly links. But seriously, this is at least a tiny bit pathetic.
Calling anyone’s actions in this series “pure and simple” is the first sign that you’re missing something. Seriously. Outside of Blaine and Faz, the cast has remarkable depth, and assuming that any single element sums them up is doing both the character and their author a disservice.
“Showing your basic humanity” is certainly not a loaded statement suggesting that minorities play nice and not be “rude” when shitty things constantly happen to them.
Perpetuating the same abusive behavior against someone else, when one has the opportunity to, is certainly understandable and satisfying, but does it actually help anything? Is it meant to? Is there anything that can be done to improve the overall situation?
Let those without self-righteous asshattery cast the first stone.
Yes. Roz is technically right. She’s also tearing down someone trying to grow right when they’re the most vulnerable.
The most likely reaction is to make Joyce shatter and hate herself, or to retreat into the fundamentalist womb she’s comfortable in, that she was just beginning to question and break out of.
Since Joyce is a sex-changed avatar for Willis, we know she’ll be one of the few who manage to avoid either long-term, although probably endure the first for a while….luckily.
I’m a little older than many of you. (Born in 1953). If you don’t think by the time you reach your sixties,there won’t be SEVERAL things you think are culturally correct NOW that you will realize are totally unjust and bigoted THEN…you’re all in for a surprise.
i’m just gonna say, and it may have been said before; roz, you don’t know if joyce knew the church had that segregating attitude and effect, i certainly didn’t know until way after i came out to myself. only recently did i learn that homeless gsrm fact, and i’m a 20 years old sexual-romantic minority ffs. it’s easy to shrug off phobic microaggressions as jokes or ignore phobic abuse when you’re not the target of it. sometimes even when you are. get over the fact that people are ignorant kthx.
Not because Joyce herself necessarily deserves vitriol, but there’s totally a thing where we’re culturally much quicker to sympathize with someone like Joyce (who’s been unwittingly part of an oppressive system but just feels so guilty about it!) than we are with someone like, say, Leslie (who we just saw kinda tacitly downplay her own issues to avoid making the class uncomfortable).
It’s a pattern that’s really easy to get frustrated with, as you keep seeing people fidget uncomfortably when the subject of say, rampant homelessness among LGBT youth comes up, and then explode with sympathy over the feelings Joyce is having!
(Yeah, Roz snapped before such an explosion of sympathy actually happened, and it’s definitely not entirely cool to go off on someone in the middle of class! But there’s a lot of feelings expressed in the comments here about her being “obviously unfair and unhelpful” that just boggle me a little.)
. . .
And I think there IS an important lesson for Joyce here – not the “people will still resent you!” one, but the one where “it’ll be very easy for you to make it stop being about them and stop being about you, and a big part of being a good ally is about letting it be about them.”
Which isn’t something that gets said a lot. We like our redemption arcs! Not so much the ones where our protagonist learns that they shouldn’t think of themselves as the main character in someone else’s story.
I’ve been close to Joyce’s shoes – I left evangelical Christianity younger, and more due to study than to personal experiences (I measured the distance to a nearby galaxy through direct observations, which sort of killed the “six thousand year old universe” thing dead). I’ve also been in Roz’s – in the modern world. where the Internet is a thing and there are people literally begging to educate you about the issues faced by minorities, there’s little excuse for not knowing what’s going on and even less for not showing basic empathy for those who are being attacked by members of a group you identify with.
Roz has a point. Roz has a HUGE point. Roz is also expressing her point at the worst possible moment.
Roz doesn’t know that because she lives neither in Joyce’s brain nor her room.
Lots of different sides, here… with seemingly most people agreeing that Roz is just being mean. I commented fairly early that I don’t disagree with her, and am inclined to be on her side. But concerning Joyce directly… I think she’s learning an important lesson about forgiveness. I don’t mean in the sense that she’s going to be forgiving Roz…
Joyce has been doing a lot of forgiving. She wanted to keep hanging out with Dorothy, so she found a way to forgive her atheism. “She’s still a good person…” She searched through her Bible looking for loopholes and found, “You know… maybe Homosexuality ISN’T a sin! Good news, Becky!” She did that, so it was easier to forgive her best friend from home. Thing is…
No one was asking for forgiveness. When you “give” someone your forgiveness, you’re still saying that they did something very wrong. Dorothy, Becky, nor anybody else that Joyce has “forgiven”… feels they’ve done anything wrong. So, it’s insulting to give someone forgiveness, when they haven’t asked for it, nor felt like they needed it. It doesn’t make the forgiver a decent person… it just makes them judgmental. (And we’ve already seen plenty of evidence that Joyce is very judgmental… “Premarital Hanky Panky!!”) (The only exception would be her forgiveness of Ethan for being gay… because he clearly doesn’t want to be gay, and is pretty self-loathing over it. Once he comes to terms with it… despite having already been outed, then he won’t need anyone’s forgiveness, and will probably be embarrassed by that.)
Here… she’s realizing that she can no longer have the higher moral ground. She’s not in a position to do any forgiving… but she needs to ASK for forgiveness, herself. Because she has been in the wrong, more than she has been admitting to herself. I know there are comments pointing out that she’s been a minor under her parents care… so her culpability may be minimal. But then, can we blame her parents? They were raised that way, too. And their parents, and so on. Yet, we know kids do wrong things all the time, and need forgiveness. So, if Joyce ever thought or voiced that homosexuality is wrong and evil (which she has), then she is culpable. So, she needs to ask forgiveness of Becky.
Yes, since Joyce is a new young adult… and is learning, she can probably get our forgiveness. But until she admits that wrongdoing she was a part of… that forgiveness will mean nothing.
I pretty much don’t give one single shit about Joyce’s feelings at all in this scene. Yes, she’s learning, and we as an audience can see that and sympathize with her, but to Roz she’s been this sexist, homophobic person who pretty much called her a scarlet woman and most likely spouts closeminded hurtful rhetoric on the regular. This is a classroom and a learning environment and Roz’s outburst isn’t helpful in a classroom setting, but I sympathize with her and her anger. I was Joyce once too (though nowhere near this extent) and probably could have used someone slapping in the face with some rightful anger, and even if it isn’t useful for Joyce and it isn’t helpful for Joyce, so what? Not everything has to be about Joyce. Roz can be pissed off about the heavy systems of oppression that up until now Joyce has been happily complicit in and let off some steam. Roz can be mad and bitter and DONE with people handholding closeminded people and expending energy on teaching moments and be impatient with progress, impatient and angry with waiting for an epiphany, and angry that Joyce’s minor step forward is applauded. Roz isn’t necessarily kind, or nice, or helpful to Joyce here, but she doesn’t have to be.
Nore does anyone, at any time, have to not be an asshole. Roz is having a temper tantrum, distespecting everyone present, if not just the teacher, and needs to shut the hell up. She’s badmouthing churches, and christians, as a WHOLE.
Nope. She’s badmouthing Christians who act like Joyce always has around her, and churches like the one Joyce came from. Frankly, given what I’ve seen of her parents, I’m comfortable with the idea that they have earned some badmouthing.
That said, you’re right about the timing, particularly once Leslie tried to rein her in. Her tirade should’ve been done at that point, if not before, and kudos to the prof for giving her the boot.
I don’t think the classroom was the right place to say it but I gotta agree with Roz. I mean not long ago Joyce was calling her tainted, she does need to realize that she’s done some crappy shit as part of the church as well.
I like roz and i understand her anger but that was not the time nor the place to say what she said, nor in the manner she said it. although im glad to see more of Roz and hope to see her more
I’m interested to see Roz “develop” a bit more. At this point, she doesn’t seem to have changed much from when the comic started (to be fair she hasn’t had as much screen time either).
And that’s not to say that what she’s saying and doing here is wrong. Just curious if she’ll always be this character who sort of comes in and challenges the others.
Geeeeeeez, Roz! How old is Joyce, again? When did you expect her to have this epiphany? When she was fifteen? In homeschool? Was I that self-righteous when I was eighteen?
Geeeeeeez, Dorothy! How old is Roz, again? When did you expect her to have this epiphany? When she was fifteen? In a house where she was regarded as nothing but a political prop for her older sister? Was I that self-righteous when I was eighteen?
(Sorry, but the “she’s young” excuse constantly being trotted out for Joyce but never for Roz is beginning to annoy. They’re all young, inexperienced and ignorant, largely the product of their environment prior to coming to school. If that gets Joyce a pass for her hurtful comments, it should apply to Roz as well.)
But to all the people saying Roz is actively harming her cause by calling Joyce out here….. >.> if Joyce’s will to learn better is so fragile that someone being “mean” to her will cause her to clam back up and dig into her previous stance…
she wasn’t gonna learn anyways.
(Joyce has a LONG and rocky road ahead of her — people think Roz calling her out is hard? Wait till she has to deal with her family. Joyce cares about people and under all the dogma she IS a good person because she’s trying to learn better. But her precious church has hurt people and SO HAS SHE. And learning better is going to mean owning that.)
But what Roz is doing isn’t calling her out. It’s bullying. That’s destroying someone’s selfesteem and pushing them back down the hole of ignorance they’ve just started to crawl out of. I say this because I’ve been there. I’ve been bullied into a self-loathing pit it took me almost ten years to get back from and I’ve inflicted pain and suffering on others as a form of self medicating empowerment by becoming a bully myself. Everything I endured and did to others, I see in Roz’ actions on this page. It cannot be defended and it cannot be excused.
Roz is telling Joyce that all the horrible atrocities commited by people who happen to believe what she believed in is on her hands as well, and to top it all off, convincing her that she is responsible for it. She’s not teaching Joyce a lesson, she’s crushing her emotionally and that doesn’t help. Trust me. Bullying doesn’t get the message through, it overwhelms people with guilt and shuts out everything else.
But what Roz is doing isn’t calling her out. It’s bullying…. for the record, I’m not disagreeing that this is something Joyce needs to be confronted with, but this is not the time and definitely not in any way, shape or form, the correct way to do it.
For the record, I’m not disagreeing that this is something Joyce needs to be confronted with, but this is not the time and definitely not in any way, shape or form, the correct way to do it.
I don’t comment on here, but damned if she isn’t right on a couple of fronts. Friends enabling the ignorance of their friends instead of calling them out on it, not to mention that one little concession of humanity and compassion does not make her some hero.
So from her standpoint, yeah, I can understand why Roz is so pissed off at Joyce. And you see how quiet Joyce is? It’s because she knows Roz is right.
This comic reminds me of a now-disowned cousin who would drive up to family Christmas parties to just yell at us all for being Christian. (And at me for not being a Christian but “tacitly supporting their ignorance”)
Roz is a jerk. I hope she gets kicked out of class, at least for the day. I know too many “open minded” people like her who are just as intolerant as some religious folks, just on the opposite side of the opinion spectrum.
I have mixed feelings about this. Does it makes sense if I say that I feel like this was something that Joyce needed to hear, but that no one should have said?
I see what you’re saying. It’s not that no one should have said it, it’s just that it should have been worded so much better. A simple ‘check your privilege’ does not need to be a slap to the face.
Wow, Roz; this isn’t on. Yes, Joyce may have been in the wrong and she may have said a lot of things that were wrong, but she wouldn’t have honestly thrown someone out on the street. Organised religion has it’s faults, but not all practitioners of that religion 100% have the same faults. And though it would have been alright to say to Joyce ‘sure, NOW you get it’ it isn’t right to be so cruel about it. She is TRYING to correct herself; she has realised what is wrong, and is learning. That should be ENCOURAGED.
Yeah, I can’t defend Roz right now, even though she’s occasionally been helpful in the past (offering Joyce counseling info, being sex positive). I know it’s difficult to have an academic discussion about a topic that you are emotionally attached to, but she is not being helpful in any way, shape or form. She’s being downright rude. Look at her language in this strip – she refers to Joyce as Dorothy’s “little friend”, as if Joyce is stupid, when all Dorothy asked her to do was respect that Joyce was learning about this topic for the first time, which is NORMAL, given that this is the fourth week of an INTRO LEVEL gender studies class. Nobody asked her to treat Joyce as a “hero” for having an epiphany, they asked her to respect another student’s learning in a classroom. Roz doesn’t know Joyce well enough to know that “UNTIL TODAY, THAT WAS YOU”. She knows Joyce is religious and doesn’t believe in pre-marital sex, and that’s all. Her behavior is really presumptuous and really holier-than-thou (which is funny, given that this is Roz we’re talking about).
Well she probably finds it disgusting that Joyce had no problem yelling “PRE MATURNAL HANKY PANKY” at Joe, telling /HER/ Her soul was “stripped down to the roots” and essentially saying they were both doomed to hell because HER beliefs said so… and then turned around and were angry at said beliefs when someone SHE likes is at risk at Damnation ya know?
Not an excuse, but I can see why she attacked with such venom.
My compliments, Willis. I know others have written similar things, but I’ll add my voice to the chorus: your comic definitely touched off probably the single most interesting and thought-provoking comments section I’ve seen on the internet in a long time. Maybe ever.
That’s probably one of the things about this page everyone can agree on. It feels odd getting so passionate about something happening in a comic, which definitely speaks volumes for Willis’ writing.
Good discussion all around (and good moderation). Polarizing subject, polarizing discussion, a polarizing character get’s a verbal smackdown from another polarizing character… and still we manage to keep it constructive.
Good work everyone, especially all of you who I don’t agree with.
Part of me is just sorta glad to see Joyce getting a bit of a verbal slap, it ALMOST makes up for that physical punch she had Mike do to Joe Unprovoked.
I mean Roz is going about this all wrong and being a total butthole, Even JOYCE gave herself a out “I will tread back on this later but FOR NOW Hanky panky you church”
Joyce needed to be aware that she seems to only care when she is affected…but she needed a gentle shake or a light pap
That awareness is coming regardless. Between Ethan, Becky, Dorothy and virtually everybody else around her, it’s inevitable. Even Joe will do his part. In his own way.
Joyce is rather masterfully wrapped up in a web that spells “evolve or die!”
Except that she’s shown a remarkable ability to only change the bare minimum that is needed to accept her friends. Talk to her right now about Transgender issues. Then tell her about her sister Jocelyn. Then talk about Transgender issues again.
The difference between the two convos is the one that Roz picked up on–Joyce only changes, hell, only challenges her own views when forced to by outside circumstance.
Well, who doesn’t? I think just about everyone is influenced by some outside force. If it challenges ones views to get them to think differently is that really a bad thing? Influence, the drive to do something alternative from your personal status quo doesn’t usually come from within. You have to look at yourself from the outside before you can even start changing in. Sure, Joyce has got a long long LONG way to go, but she’s at least MAKING a way to go. Some progress, no matter how small, is always better than none at all or ever.
You know what? They’re both right and they’re both wrong.
Joyce is right for becoming more accepting of people for all of their faults and differences, but her naive mindset of trying to “right” them is what puts her in the wrong. She’s fairly accepting of people’s differences, even when she doesn’t agree with them. In other words, she’s not Mary. She’s willing to help to a fault. She’s got a battle ahead of her and it’s not going to be pretty.
Roz is right for calling out Joyce on her seemingly hypocritical ways of trying to have things both ways when that can’t work. It’s true that the church she was brought up in all her life has encouraged her to ostracized those whom they deem undesirable and because of this, Joyce has indirectly supported their ousting of LGBT children or trying to “fix” them for being “wrong”. Now, here’s how Roz is wrong:
1. She intentionally put Joyce on the spot in a public setting. Roz has been fairly well known to be outspoken about her views and she’ll use anyone as her pedestal. She put Joyce down to boost herself up.
2. She’s doing exactly what Joyce did: passing judgement before understanding. She only knows Joyce on a surface level, while we the readers and those closest to her know all manner of depths that she has and have watched her grow. Roz hasn’t seen any of this, leaving her to assume that Joyce hasn’t changed since day one. She’s gone ahead and compartmentalized her as someone who’s incapable maturing.
3. She undermines the progress that Joyce has made thus far. Rather than celebrate her now realizing the world isn’t black and white, Roz goes out of her way to belittle Joyce’s realization as elementary understanding. “The simplest of epiphanies”?! THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS A “SIMPLE EPIPHANY”! If that were the case, then it wouldn’t be a fucking epiphany! For one to experience such, it requires an understanding of differences, an willingness to expand one’s limited knowledge and the depth to be capable of doing so. And you wanna know how someone, hell, ANYone, experiences this? By having something happen to them. Yes, Roz, something DID happen, and it’s because of this, Joyce had a “simple epiphany” that’s adding to the changes she’s already going through.
All and all, I’m pretty PO’d at Roz. I was quite surprised to see Joyce actually get pissed about the reality, which is a good thing. She’s been in a bubble all her life and now she’s broken out of it. Hell, she wanted to get out of it, and as a having grown up in one myself, I couldn’t be more proud of her. She’s got plenty a battle coming her way, but so long as she keeps fighting, she’ll end up winning the war for herself.
Roz, on the other hand, really needs to shut the fuck up. She wants to be understood, seen and heard constantly, and it’s quite aggravating. She claims to command respect but in reality she just demands attention, and she’ll get it by any and every means necessary. What irks me most about her is her obvious inferiority complex: She feels that she’s been “fighting” for some great change where in reality she just wants to be acknowledge for her lifestyle choice, as if it’s something reprehensible like the way the LGBT community is seen. In truth, that’s a morality choice and it varies from person to person. Do I personally think her lifestyle is wrong? No, because it’s her life, to each their own. She’s not hurting anybody, but once her views and choices do hurt someone, only then does it become a problem, which is what’s happened here.
When they first met, Joyce was bothered by Roz’s forwardness about sexuality, but she didn’t go out of her way to totally bash her. Hell, she went to Roz’s event and (though begrudgingly) wore the dildo on her head at her insistence. Joyce made her stance after having tried to comprehend her. Roz took her at face value and left it at that. Roz is the one in desperate need of this “simple epiphany”:
No one cares what you do. Be happy with yourself and live your life with that in mind. If someone comes along who does happen to care, cherish them. As many people as there are in this world, only so many will give a shit about you. Stop trying to force everyone to accept, respect and acknowledge you because they’re not all going to. Shut up and observe the world around you instead of expecting the world to observe you.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnd that’s my rant. Once again Willis, amazing job. I can’t wait to see how this arc unfolds.
Apparently so. *le sigh* Stupid convincing Photoshop. Either way, Joyce still made the effort and always makes the effort to learn new things.
Also, holy crap Willis not only replied to my post, but he also corrected it! *squee* Srsly, have you EVER considered animating DoA!? The writing is….I’ve got no words as to how well written and thought out your characters and stories are, and I don’t mean for TV. Just an online independent thing a la Rooster Teeth. If you’d grant me permission, I’d like to make a sample for you. What do you think? (Yes, I know shameless, but what better opportunity am I gonna get to ask this question and get a fairly timely response!?)
I am BAFFLED by the rage that Roz seems to have engendered here. Lady is completely right. Why should she have to soften her tone just because Joyce’s feelings might get hurt? Where was all this rage when Joyce was saying she hated homosexuality with the white hot fire of a thousand suns? Joyce isn’t innocent in all of this — she’s actively working to undermine Ethan’s sexuality, and if she’s had a personal moment of revelation, that still doesn’t mean her righteous fury at the church she supported as recently as LAST WEEK is anything other than self-serving. Roz is calling her to account, and rightly so. It might — MIGHT — be inappropriate for a classroom (but a gender studies classroom? that is where these discussions HAPPEN), but it would be not just fair but massively overdue in a social situation. Nobody owes Joyce forgiveness or understanding for suddenly realizing that her beliefs that LGBT people are actually people — that is a *baseline standard for decency.*
Basically, it’s nice that Joyce has woken up, but that doesn’t mean that all of the terrible things she supported — and actively supported, not just passively witnessed — didn’t happen, or that she doesn’t bear the responsibility for them. Take your medicine, kid — you’ve earned it.
Where I come from, forgiveness and understanding are ALSO part of a baseline standard for decency. (And part of a complete breakfast, but that’s a different strip.)
I agree that Roz is right. She’s totally 100% right. That’s irrelevant to the question of whether she’s being a complete asshole.
I don’t even think she’s being an asshole! She’s just not letting Joyce’s behavior slide out of consideration for her feelings. She is holding her accountable.
And, also, Joyce hasn’t done much to earn forgiveness or understanding. She’s softened on Becky, and she’s internally questioning things, but she hasn’t acknowledged her own active participation in what she’s deploring. To borrow from Joyce’s own religion, you have to repent before you can be forgiven, and she isn’t repenting, not yet.
We like Joyce because we see her interior life, but most people at IU — and Roz especially — aren’t privy to that, and it’s both entirely fair and entirely justified to call her out when she talks out of her ass.
Ok, let’s flip the coin then. Where was Roz’s boiling rage when Joyce WAS actively acting out against homosexuality? Where was her white hot indignation when Joyce WAS actively part of a church that hurt people? To put in in Roz’s own words, where was Roz for the first four weeks? I’m not saying her anger isn’t understandable; it is. However, you don’t yell at someone who figures out that they were wrong. You yell at someone who is still doing the wrong thing. Roz IS being an asshole, but she has a reason to be.
Out fighting the good fight? Advocating for a healthy understanding of an open sexuality and film an agitprop sex tape? They haven’t interacted much in the strip, and when they have, Roz has been pretty consistent about calling Joyce on her bullshit.
Also, Joyce IS still doing the wrong thing — in that she’s not really grappling with her own complicity in creating the culture she’s now railing against. She’s condemning the church for being anti-LGBT, but without acknowledging her own part in reifying the church. She’s not approaching this apologetically, or humbly, or even particularly thoughtfully — she’s just skipping over all that hard work.
And is Roz even yelling at her? She’s annoyed, sure, but it’s hardly a spittle-flecked rant. And bear in mind that Joyce physically assaulted Joe on their date, and nearly assaulted him again after he and Roz hooked up consensually. And Roz’s behavior in this strip is an over-the-shoulder truth bomb mostly directed to Leslie, not to Joyce.
You know, everything aside, I do *like* Joyce, but you can’t say this isn’t a completely earned putdown. I hope she takes it deep to heart and grows from it.
But she’s not old enough to have gained any power or say in the situation before now. Personally, I think that there are levels of responsibility for actions, and Joyce is only now beginning to pick up noticeable responsibility. Up until now, has ANYONE pointed out problems the church has? At first it was just Mary, which one person isn’t a big enough pool to say anything about the Church. Joyce thought “Maybe this is why we go to a different one”, so she honestly did not have enough data to count it as anything other than a fluke.
Only now is Joyce being shown any kind of trend of the Church which shows a negative aspect.
She has no reason to be “humble” or “apologetic” yet. She’s just now finding out about this, and is not ready to address even her peers about this. She is yelling up the ladder, not outside of it, even though the ladder may not be directly there. Apologeticness only comes AFTER Joyce has time to reflect and realize her part, not immediately after something is revealed.
And Joyce has had no real power over these actions. She was a child, living under rule of her parents, and did not have much room to work. Because of this, she has not had room to really become guilty. Now if she’s like that in a few years, or arguably a semester, THEN she has something to be guilty of. But for now, Joyce has not had much of an option to stray from her predetermined path, so her guilt in this situation should be minimal.
You honestly can’t go asking babies not to eat here, and you can’t go asking sheltered church-girls to take responsibility for what they did not know or know to know or even know to know to be watching for.
I get that Joyce comes from weird circumstances, but she is by any definition of the term an adult. A sheltered, weird, poorly socialized adult, but an adult nonetheless, and one capable of forming her own opinions and making her own decisions. She is, to again borrow a construct from Christianity, old enough to sin, to have ownership of both her virtues and her vices.
If you want to say that she hasn’t had time to reflect on what she’s been taught, or simply hasn’t run into counterexamples before, well, that goes against what we’ve seen here in the strip, where Joyce has gone around lecturing people (sweetly), condemning people to everlasting hellfire (apologetically), and punching people for insufficiently enacting a chilvaric ideal they didn’t sign up for (and also planning to convert them if the date had gone well). That’s a lot of pretty aggressive pushing of her ideals in ways that are at best heedless and at worst actively cruel and destructive. Roz specifically has pushed back against that, both in the culture in general and in Joyce’s behavior particularly, but she hasn’t sought out Joyce to harangue her, only responded when they’re in class together.
Now, sure, Joyce is growing at LIGHTNING SPEED as the strip goes on, and she’s had some terrible things happen to her to cause that, but no one outside of a handful of people know what those things are or even that they happened. Getting called out on her behavior is neither unreasonable nor unearned — and Roz isn’t calling her out on where she was six years ago, but where she was all of last month while she was actively trying to tell Roz that she was going to hell.
And if you can’t call someone out as an entitled enforcer of the majoritarian view in a GENDER THEORY class, where in god’s name can you? That is literally what you sign up for those classes for.
1. no it’s really not what you sign up for
2. But Roz isn’t just calling her out on this. She is trying to ride upon something Joyce realized late in the game to make her feel horrible, not trying to get Joyce to understand that something is wrong.
3. Although Joyce may be LEGALLY an adult, and of “age”, she is not mature yet. (Hence the name of the comic, a play on Coming of Age.) She’s not even legally a full adult when you think about it. She can’t buy beer, she can’t pick up children from some forms of daycare, etc.
The way Roz is doing this isn’t going to teach Joyce anything. The words she have chosen and the way she emphasize them are done deliberately to make Joyce feel responsible for all the injustice and suffering homosexuals have had to, and are still going through from the religious conservative communities. She’s saying that Joyce shouldn’t be held responsible just for the harm her own ignorance might have caused, but that she should carry the guilt of all transgressions perpetrated by other people as well. That’s not going to accomplish anything unless the goal is to make Joyce retreat back into her comfort zone of ignorance and fundamentalism.
No, she’s rightly saying that Joyce was an active participant and enforcer of a religious culture that drives queer kids to suicide and self-destruction. Joyce willingly, insistently, and happily identified herself with the very church she now condemns up until just recently — and that means taking on its flaws as much as its virtues. She’s NOT saying Joyce was out there beating people to death, but that she WAS telling them they were disgusting sinners condemned to an eternity of torment because of a quirk of biology. That is a terrible thing to do to someone.
“The church” exists through the people that make it up. Joyce could have been silent, could have been a passive believer — take Sierra as an example — but she wasn’t. She was proselytizing from day one, and that makes her that much more complicit in what the class is discussing, much more actively guilty of the sins of the church.
When you put it that way, I have to agree that you have a point. I still think Roz method is unforgivable however. I’ve done too much wrong with that exact same rethoric to consider it justifiable under any circumstance. Maybe it’s a personal bias from my own past as a bully, but when I see people try to make people feel guilty for actions they haven’t had any active influence in or knowledge of, something snaps inside me and I can’t forgive them any more than I could forgive myself.
At the very least, she’s being an asshole because they’re in a classroom environment, which is supposed to foster healthy discussion and civility. If she freaked out on Joyce outside the classroom then it would be different.
Also, I know Roz doesn’t understand this so I can’t hold her to it, but Joyce has had a lot of crap thrown at her over the past few weeks. She was sheltered for her entire life up until now, to the point where she thought she’d be disobeying God if she defied her parents on minor things. And what’s more, her best friend just got kicked out and she has to hide that from her parents, which is like sin on top of sin, but she can’t see herself doing anything differently. She is SO CONFUSED. I’ve had friends who were there; I’ve had friends grow up in sheltered religious homes and realize they were gay or trans, or be forced to realize how horrible their parents and communities were, and it’s HARD AS HELL. Nobody is required to give them a gentle loving hand or a party, but a little patience can mean the world to someone who is struggling that much with everything they believe. So yeah, Roz is right. But considering the context, she’s also an asshole.
But part of being in a classroom — ESPECIALLY in a class like gender studies — is being called out and challenged on your beliefs and arguments. Roz hasn’t sworn at Joyce, she hasn’t yelled, she hasn’t brought anything up in the discussion the JOYCE HERSELF hasn’t brought up in earlier sessions. I don’t think she deserves to get pulled out of class, or that she’s being an asshole at all.
Yeah but most classrooms have policies where you can’t be openly hostile towards your classmates. Especially in a class that touches heavy topics like a gender studies class. Her beliefs should be challenged, but Roz is being hostile, and that’s not appropriate.
Think of it this way: if someone (god forbid) had an “epiphany” and became a born-again Christian, and Mary told them that they had a boatload of stuff to repent for in the most derisive and petulant tone she could muster (which is very), would you be defending her? No? Because that is what Roz is doing here. Yes, Joyce needs to know that she’s not in the clear, but Roz is doing it in the exact wrong way.
Furthermore, this comes off a little like a temper tantrum cut with childish vengeance. If Roz’s sister weren’t Robin “I’m in it to win it” DeSanto and she hadn’t been ranted at by Joyce for pre-marital hanky-pankies, I highly doubt she’d be so full of vitriol.
It’s a bad analogy. A better one would be if someone became a born again Christian and proceeded to condescend to sinners for not having seen the light (?) and Mary (??) called them out on being the exact same thing two days ago.
Also I don’t get the “temper tantrum cut with childish vengeance” thing. Roz is totally right here. That *was* Joyce until yesterday. Calling her childish for that is … I’m confused by that. Roz is an angry person, sure, but not childish — like Sarah, she looks at the world and sees that it’s terrible, but where Sarah retreats into herself until she has to swoop in with a baseball bat, Roz goes out and gets in people’s faces to make things better. How is that childish? How is her scorn here a tantrum? I think she’s more angry at Joyce for what she represents than what she is, individually.
I don’t know. I’ve got a lot more respect for Roz in DoA than I do pretty much anyone else. She’s not very “softly, softly,” but why should she be? Why should she have to be brave, and right, AND nice on top of all that? Why should she be held to a higher standard than Joyce, who is only intermittently brave, and seldom right, and not even that nice.
First, the point is Roz and Mary would go about things in the exact same way: They are very “hate the sinner, hate sin” and quite gung-ho about their attitudes. The fact that one’s a liberal and the other’s a conservative just goes to show that it doesn’t matter what the beliefs are, it’s the person who holds them.
Second, I’m not calling Roz childish for the point she is making. I’m calling her childish for the way she is making it: A big, unstoppable, one-track rant whose real goal is trying to make Joyce as uncomfortable as possible. That is what I see and that is why I made the analogy to Mary. As for motive: Roz is getting back at Joyce for the “your soul is a delicate flower” speech Joyce gave her on the first day of class. If Roz had stopped when Leslie told her to the first time, I would be supportive of her. If she had stopped when Leslie told her to the second time, I’d be a bit miffed but I’d still see her point. That Roz did not stop until the third time, and may well continue tomorrow, is a sign that this is more personal than a simple “this is for your own good”.
Third, I‘m not holding any one to any ideals, merely trying to explain why others don’t like her. Maybe this would work better: People don’t like Roz because Roz is unlikable. She’s vindictive, rude, out for attention, and now we see her being a bully. She may hold views you hold and she may spread them the way you do, but that does not give her a free pass anymore than Joyce’s upbringing gave her one. You can’t have it both ways
See, but I like Roz, so she’s clearly not unlikeable. 🙂
But more broadly, we have a pretty different interpretation of the character. You see vindictiveness, I see a legit response to a pattern of sweetie-pie abusiveness on Joyce’s part. You see rude, and I see someone who… what? was told she was going to hell for harmless sex and called it horseshit? Being told you’re damned seems much ruder to me. Out for attention? Agitating for societal change. You can say the difference is that I agree more with Roz’s politics, and I ABSOLUTELY do, but you can’t say that she does things just to make herself more renowned on campus. EVERYTHING Roz does is in service to her agenda.
And being a bully? How? She’s correctly described Joyce as belonging to a church that condemns and casts out gay people. She hasn’t pursued the girl outside of class — in fact, I don’t think she and Joyce have interacted AT ALL other than in class here, she hasn’t hounded her in class, and she hasn’t done anything to her other than tell her she’s being a judgmental ahole. Which Joyce is! Lord love her, but Joyce has done incredibly jerky things in the strip and mostly slid away from it by being a sweetheart and — admittedly! — a fundamentally decent human being. I don’t know what definition of bullying you’re using.
I also don’t think we have any evidence that Roz wants to lord anything over anyone else. She wants to change people’s minds, right enough, but she hasn’t done anything that says you have to look up to Roz, specifically — look at how she handled Dorothy’s interview. Once she was convinced Dorothy would give her a fair shake, she was happy to answer what sounded like a pretty skeptical interview. She cares about the message, where Mary cares about being the messenger, if you get what I’m saying.
Roz is childish in that, by all appearances, she appears to be enitrely unwilling to ever admit that she could possibly be in the wrong. If you can’t admit to ever being wrong, you have some serious growing up to do.
Saaame. Joyce also says she might take it back afterwards, which means that she might just revert back to passively supporting her church’s stand. I always see people online tone policing social justice people to “be nicer to the bigot” but sheesh, there’s a pretty good reason why SJ people are pretty pissed about these things.
People get vocal about things that seem like bullying. You add religion and sexuality to the mix both highly charged topics well..you get 900 comments maybe even over 1000
Yeah, Roz, you should probably tone it down because this is a classroom. But at the same time, snaps because you’re fucking right.
I’m sick of people saying “oh well someone isn’t as TERRIBLE as they previously were/could be so you shouldn’t be so hard on them”. Nah. Like, sure, I’m glad my parents haven’t disowned me for being queer and trans, and after a almost a year have started to come around on the name change. It’d be a little more meaningful if they’d do anything other than unilaterally refuse to use the correct pronouns/gendered words when referring to me and like, also back me up when the extended family misgender me and just overall start being conservative jerkwads, but hey they’re not the literally worst parents to exist so I can’t complain, right?
And to everyone calling Roz a bongo for the sake of being a bongo, no? Like, this is some pretty fucking legitimate anger at the Church and religious people. Joyce’s (currently evolving) views are incredibly harmful to queer people, beyond people being thrown out, but the repercussions of knowing you’ll be hated/not accepted/maybe tolerated by people who should, theoretically love you unconditionally take a heavy mental toll, not to mention the mental processing used to keep safe. Like, yeah, this isn’t the time and place to yell at Joyce some more, but y’know that’s also why it’s called “losing your temper”. Because you lost the control.
1: If you believe that Joyce’s background and home environment give her a pass for some of the truly hurtful things she’s said and done, then please consider that Roz is the same age–different experiences, yes, but still a short lifespan that has only given her a limited view of things. Just because she doesn’t think anyone has anything to teach her doesn’t mean it’s true.
The entirety of Joyce’s part their interaction has been “Your soul is shredded down to the roots” and “You’re a witch!”–the second in reaction to a deliberate attempt by Roz to help someone who might be in need. It would be a good idea to keep that in mind in judging Roz’s words here.
3: Like it or not, Roz’s key accusation is spot-on. Joyce’s alterations of her views have only come in response to discovering something uncomfortable about someone she knows.
Consider two hypothetical scenarios:
A: This class happened a week ago, comic-time. Would Joyce have been saying “Hanky-panky the church”, or would she have been giving apologetics about how forcing the LGBT youths to choose between the street or being ‘treated’ is really for their own good?
B: Given what we’ve seen of Joyce’s parents, and what happened to Becky, how often do you think their church has had a situation where a young teen was suddenly no longer attending services, and the other kids were simply urged to not talk about it? Joyce’s blind obedience has had a cost to others, even if she didn’t know about the cost.
The place where Roz went wrong was the timing, particularly once Leslie told her flat-out to knock it off. That crossed a major line, and she has earned the verbal boot-print Leslie just put on her ass.
I’d be the first (well, in top 50 at least) to call Joyce a horrible person.
But Roz is being, if not wrong as such, at least in wrong place to state her opinions.
Class is for studies, not telling people how horrible and bigoted they are, or were, unless they insist on bringing it up themselves.
But Joyce *has* insisted on bringing it up, again and again, in this very class. And Gender Studies classes tend to be pretty heavily discussion-driven, or at least they were at my school — it’s not like you just sit there and the teacher lectures you for an hour and then everybody goes home. This whole conversation is pretty much on model for the class.
“Why can’t I do that? He did it!” is a popular refrain in elementary school. It’s also no excuse for one’s behavior. Roz deserved to be shot down by Leslie for launching into a personal attack. If anything, Leslie should have been more consistent in this regard in the past.
But that failure of consistency likely fed Roz’s anger. Joyce gets to tell people their souls are shredded down to the roots; Roz gets told to knock it off for pointing out that Joyce has been willfully blind to stuff being said in class for weeks, and suggesting that her motivation for doing so is more based in some personal drama, rather than honestly thinking things through.
Dang, hit Post too soon. My point is that from Roz’s point of view, Leslie has set an uneven playing field. That, in turn, makes her less likely to be willing to listen to Leslie as a referee in shutting down personal attacks.
Leslie came in late that day, and when she arrived, all she saw was Joyce and Roz going at each other’s throats. That time, Leslie didn’t try to separate the two.
Don’t beat me for saying this, but I feel sometimes that Joyce gets away with a lot of her behavior because she’s got them big blue eyes, and can just look so pathetic when they are filled with tears that it pulls sympathy.
Her father does, as does her her sister (and presumably her brothers). Oh! and Ruth got green eyes from her near death experience, so she actually counts!
Another stone thrown… and so the ripple effect begins again. Looking forward to seeing the end effect of this, heh.
Can’t help but wonder how Joyce will react to Mary the next time Mary asks her a loaded question like she did earlier in the chapter – even Joyce vocalizing herself here shows great conviction on her behalf (though Roz’s point carries validity, too). The shift is beginning to show.
A family with many sons, and one of them runs away (the prodigal son). When he later returns and reconciles, the family throws a celebration. At least one of his brothers grumbles about not getting showered with praise for not running away in the first place.
Oh my…I can see how that can work on either Roz or Becky.
Bagge, if you recall, the titular character asks his father for his share of the inheritance so that he can go about his own life while his older brother remained home. The younger squandered his money until he was left to feeding and eating with pigs. He made the realization that he should return home and beg to work for his father as his servants were treated better. Upon his return and begging at his father’s knees, his father welcomed him back with open arms and threw a feast for him. The older son, who remained, refused to participate. Enraged, he stated how he never got a thing for behaving and doing right by his father. The father simply states that all that he has is his son’s, and that he’s just grateful to have his youngest home.
Roz could be the older son, who’s always known freedom yet never broken any real taboo while Becky could be the younger, given true freedom for the first time and on the verge of squandering it. The only difference we could see here though, is that while Becky is rejected by one family, she may be welcomed with open arms into another that she can truly call home.
This is the finale of a trilogy of parables about loss and redemption (The Lost Lamb and the Lost Coin being the first two) so it’ll be interesting to see where this goes. Damn you Willis for making me recall my Catholic school days! >.</
I was more imagining a Leslie/Roz/Joyce trio. (Also, I thought the parable related to them. Heyo!) Leslie’s the dad in this context. Roz is all “I’ve been fighting for gay rights since forever, why is this bare token acknowledgement from Joyce getting celebrated when she’s been hating on us for the entire rest of her life?” and Les is all “Roz, no one is denying any of that, but Joyce is a part of our metaphorical family now, and that’s still something that should be celebrated. Even if you feel like throwing blame, that shouldn’t stop you from being happy that you have another sister now.”
Personally, I always saw it as a lesson about always trying to find the good in situations instead of alienating people with negativity, but it’s definitely the kind of story that can be read multiple ways.
This whole situation is just such a perfect example about how things are not black and white. Roz isn’t all wrong to be upset that Joyce is only examining her beliefs simply because something happened to someone she knows. Her knee-jerk reaction makes even more sense when you consider the bits Joyce had told her about her soul being like a flower and all – it’s pretty personal to Roz.
Still, Dorothy is right to point out that letting Joyce learn isn’t a bad thing either – what good is it if someone tries to change their beliefs for whatever reason and is met with only anger? (But this is also specific to Joyce… I think others in the comments were already mentioning people who change their beliefs simply because it will personally benefit them…aka politicians especially… but Joyce seems to be looking at a broader view than that.)
And finally, yeah. Joyce is realizing that beliefs that were integral to her being, that her church that she grew up in… they are not maybe the best beliefs in the world due to the harm they have caused others and that’s going to be hard to confront, with or without Roz.
I know this won’t be noticed since I know others have seen each perspective but i’ll say it.
I am annoyed with Roz, but it hurts not because she’s wrong, but because of how right she is. I was a Joyce until my second year of high school. I was ignorant, innocent, and no one told me much because they thought i would panic. Shoot I didn’t even know what a condom was til the first year of high school. I spend a good amount of my time at church and my head in the books and to make matters worse I was pretty sure anyone who wasn’t christian was going to hell. :<
It took til I was hit with a painful moment. My best friend revealed she was Bisexual. (Heh). I worried, I told her I would pray for her, I begged her to go back to being straight cause I couldn't imagine her getting condemned to "holy fire".
Then I thought. God isn't that much of a dick as to take away my best friend. So I read up on it, looked online, and realized that most of this bad stuff only occurred in the church since it was obvious we have gone to not do alot of the things shown in the bible. But that now a days because people were "rejected" for being themselves. I cared too much about her. I accepted her to a point and almost threw my whole religion away because I was ashamed of what I had followed for so long. In the past 5 years i've met tons of awesome Lgbt people, atheists, etc. But it's so hard to be a christian when half the time I feel people don't even look at the actual person before judging them. :/ …writing this made me realize I was a younger Joyce. Dear GOD.
I tried to agree that I was getting better and blame the church, but it became painfully true that I was one of the people who rejected others because of who they were. I thought my belief was higher than others. And many people have had their lives destroyed because the “church” doesn’t like it. It’s sad. It’s not like I can change anything, but anyone who has changed kinda wishes they could.
Indeed. Roz might be correct that this is something Joyce needs to be confronted with, but her methods are reprehensible. Especially if the point is to actually teach her something.
Roz is not that much different then Joyce in that neither are afraid of spouting off their beliefs, just that in this case Roz is calling out Joyces bullshit
Yup. Telling someone they have no soul and accusing them of witchcraft because it’s impossible they might be trying to do something decent for you is a pretty textbook case of bullying.
Oh, sorry, are we still giving Joyce a magic Backstory Pass for all her shit, but denying it for any other characters? My bad.
That’s it, Roz! Make her feel embarrassed and defensive! Don’t celebrate her learning or encourage further growth!
People certainly don’t react to discomfort by retreating to familiar ground! You want to keep her unbalanced until your final goal is realized: Joyce, crying and prostrating herself in front of a giant cross covered in condoms.
Did you notice Joyce blaming the church for what was happening, the same church she belongs to, the same church she listens to for guidence?
Is joyce taking any responsibility for being part of the same organization?
Remember her arguing vehemently with Dina about evolution while waiting to get a flu shot?
Don’t think thats being hypocritical?
How she thinks she can help “cure” Ethan of his gayness?
Sounds like one step away from “rehabilitation”
Basically calling Roz a slut while saying shes concerned for Joes soul and thinking Roz is part of a coven?
Double standards much?
Physical assualt on Joe because he has different values to hers…
Sure shes made progress but Roz has a right to be pissed at Joyce over prior treatment
No, Roz does not have a right to be pissed at Joyce right now. You don’t get to be mad at someone when they’re right just because they were wrong before. You don’t let grudges get in the way of good development. That’s just the same kind of hypocritical self-righteous, self-serving bullshit that Roz was supposed to dislike Joyce for.
Roz have every right to be pissed. Up until yesterday Joyce supported practices that are literally driving kids to death and until she owns up to that she haven’t progressed in any meaningful way.
Well… she would still have had to deal with the whole “her best friend is a lesbian and cast out of her community” thing, and she would have been in a much worse position to help her.
For the sake of my amusement I hereby declare that Bongo is the name of an evil mutant clown demon that feeds off the sorrow and terror of children as it lives in the sewers of small town America. When we say that Roz is acting like a Bongo, we mean she is acting like a monster from a Steven King novel.
Come on! We’re like less than a hundred posts away from beating out Danny imagining he’s kissing a dude! We can do it! We can be the most discussed strip in DOA! We just have to push a little bit ahead and we’re there!
I am probably going to get beaten up for this, but I’ll say it anyway. For a comic strip, this is getting to be decidedly unfunny. I don’t mind a bit of social advocacy in a strip, Doonesbury broke that ground a long time ago and still manages to be amusing at times, but can you manage please try to get some giggles back?
You have to make your own humor here. Like, you could assume Joyce in the last panel has retaliated against Roz’s criticism by chewing her hair. Also, her head grew like three sizes while she did so. Bam. Problem solved.
Are you saying that because you wrote this months ago and are not going to make dramatic changes to it now, weather or not there’s something funny coming up, or are you saying that because this comic is going to get very dark very fast?
Not speaking for Willis here, speaking for artists and writers (as I am one) in general:
Butthurt viewers don’t get to dictate the content of the story. It doesn’t matter if it was written months ago or minutes ago. There’s enough other Internet to fuck off to if you can’t handle what’s in the story you’re reading.
(I’ve had to post this multiple times on LICD and LFG, and I gave up on telling it to the QC readers long ago, so it’s not just aimed at a reader on DoA, either.)
I think the most obvious answer is that he’s saying that out of sheer spite. Because this is his story and by god it’ll be done his way and aint nobody gonna make him do it different.
All in all a perfectly valid viewpoint from my perspective!
Okay, FINE! I just really wanted to know if this was going to be getting funny, or if I should be more careful when I read this because it’s going to pull me to tears when one of the secondary characters gets involved.
Don’t ask me why, but I always fall in love with secondaries.
Okay, it’s like five minutes until the next comic goes up, but I want to say this before it does.
Roz is right, but God, did she pick a terrible way to phrase it. She pinpoints accurately that this is something hitting close to home for Joyce, and basically comes down hard on her for having the temerity to change her mind based on personal evidence rather than just being told something that flew in the face of preconceived notions. I mean, yeah, her upbringing told her that the world as a whole was degenerate and would try to lead her astray, but shouldn’t she know they were lying to her?
On the other hand, while we come down hard on her since she hasn’t seen what’s been going on for Joyce in recent days, neither have we seen what’s been going on with Roz, and there’s some very real baggage we know of already.
Fuck anyone who honestly thinks Roz is right, and you’re even worse if you’re saying “I agree, but she shouldn’t have said it/said it like that”.
Someone is coming out of their shell, questioning past beliefs, and questioning an institution they once thought infallible, and her reaction is to get pissed at Joyce PERSONALLY for it. Joyce was learning to empathize and consider people with more care, and Roz got mad at her for previously having the incorrect opinion. Just so she can feel all mighty and superior, and because she was feeling miffed for not having her “open minded brilliance” celebrated. She’s a narcissistic bongo who clearly doesn’t care about the actual people facing oppression, only her self-righteousness and self-satisfaction. So no, everything about what she said and thinks is pretty fucking wrong.
And if you think it’s somehow better to think the same thing, but not say it aloud so that you never have to be challenged and so you can sit oh so smug inside your own head, you’re even worse. At least Roz had the guts to be frank with her opinion.
I agree with some of your points, but I think declaring that she doesn’t care about the people suffering at all is going way too far. I don’t buy it. Until we see some clear evidence to the contrary (and to the best of my recollection, we have not) we can’t assume Roz isn’t sincere in her beliefs. There might be more going on there (Big Sis issues come to mind) but I don’t see people getting victimized not mattering to her. If anything, I think she cares to much- so much that she’s projecting the hate she has for legit awful people onto people like Joyce who are just misguided and learning.
Roz is a hypocrite — despite all her talk, she’s just judging Joyce on the superficial level of “Joyce is a fundy”, which is no different from some idiot judging people on the level of “so and so is a lesbian, that’s all I need to know.”
We’ve never seen any sign or hint of Joyce “forcing kids out of their homes and onto the streets” — and yet Roz pins some sort of collective blame for that crap on her.
What we do know about Joyce is that when faced with that choice, she did the right thing.
I keep thinking about this and kinda churning over different feelings. Having been more Joyce than Roz, and being a naturally sensitive person, it’s hard for me to see someone like Roz tear into Joyce as she’s just starting to express new, scary-to-her beliefs. But at the same time, Roz has a massive point and I feel a little tone-policing for being upset at how harshly she’s voiced her thoughts. I can see where her thought process might be, “So I’m damaged goods for having pre-marital, but suddenly LGBT+ is acceptable? OH. HELL. NO. HYPOCRITE.” And how she would react in completely righteous anger. And how she and Joyce don’t have a relationship where it might be appropriate for her to go to Joyce after class to confront her rather than derail class and verbally eviscerate Joyce publicly.
I think I just kinda keep wishing that someone closer to Joyce had been the one to have this hard conversation. Sarah, Billie, Dorothy or Walky…hell, Jocelyne or Ethan. Someone who could be like, “Really, now? Really?”
Also, of what we’ve seen of both Roz and Joyce, it really does seem like Joyce is the one who is more compassionate and moved to positive action. Roz’s beliefs and actions often seem reactionary against what she sees as the status quo, though I’m not sure it’s fair to categorize her thusly.
I dunno. We’ll see how things turn out. Just still thinking through all the implications of everything thusfar.
In retrospect: taken out of context, Joyce’s face in panel two is hilarious. It’s like every little muscle is doing its own thing, and the brain is too overwhelmed to stop them. 😀
“So a priest, a rabbi, and a muslim walk into a bar. Guy on the street says ‘Damn, thought at least one of them would have seen it. Ouch.’ ”
“I a guy goes to the doctor and says ‘Doc I dreamed last night that I was eating a huge marshmallow and I woke up and realized I ate my whole feather pillow in my sleep!’ Doc says ‘Well, how do you feel now?’ Guy replies ‘A little down in the mouth.’ ”
I love how Joyce is being put through the ringer in terms of character development.
It’s so engaging to watch someone overcome what they’ve been programmed to be, as painful as it is to have your whole worldview flipped upside-down.
Y’know, all through Shortpacked!, I never got why folks didn’t like Roz. She was certainly not a flawless human being, but not hateworthy. Until this strip. Seriously, Roz, fuck you.
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o_o
O_O
._.
6_6
¬_¬
http://persephonemagazine.com/2013/01/gif-it-to-me-baby-popcorn-gif/gw-itcrowdmosspopcorn/
(I’m actually more like *scoots desk away*)
Yeah, you scooted your desk so far away you don’t even appear in today’s strip….
(bg panel 5 is me sneaking out the door hoo HOO)
((j/k))
(((idk)))
I’m partial to the gif of Michael Jackson eating popcorn, myself. So much more expression.
*not sure if smiling while watching*
I mistook Roz for an AK47 the way all those shots were fired
And the rocket’s red glare shot fired everywhere! We realize how, much a but Roz is!
Also SERIOUSLY WILLIS YOU PUT ROZ THERE JUST FOR THAT ARE YOU GONNA USE HER FOR EVERY MEAN COMMENT AGAINST OUR BABY JOYCE YOU MONSTER.
no mike gona smell the fresh reopend wound and come soon
Hopefully. Mike would probably be the best solution to this problem.
DAMN IT WILLIS!
No, it goes “DAMN YOU WILLIS”
Is that in response to the comic or the oncoming comments about it? 😀
Roz, Joe thanks you for eclipsing any chance he might have had of looking like the biggest jerk in this scene. For all his insensitivity, he just wants to pull his head into his turtle shell when compassion and feelings are called for, not actually try to start shit.
I have a feeling Roz is about to find out what matters more to Leslie– a chance at a date with Robin DeSanto or the relative emotional safety of her classroom– and be quite unprepared for the answer.
Oh yeah. I bet Leslie don’t play no shit.
I’m hoping Lez’ puts the smack down on Roz. That would be awesome!
That would be cause for Leslie to be fired from the school immediately.
I don’t think you understand the flexibility of the term “smackdown”
You also forgot the term “tenure”.
Do we know if Leslie has tenure yet?
Hell, no. She’s in her mid-twenties.
Frankly, I’d be surprised if she even had her doctorate; I got mine at 25 and that was considered amazing.
I suspect Leslie is either a grad student or ABD TA (Gender Studies TAs are likely to be teaching their own courses as it’s in the humanities).
If a student is being disruptive she is totally within her rights to call her on it, kick her out of class for that day, etc. She obviously can’t haul off and wack her, but I don’t think any of us really want that.
I agree philosophically with Roz, but her “more sex-positive-than-thou” act is every bit as narrow-minded and judgmental as Joyce’s church.
Ugh, yes. The only thing more annoying than closed-minded bigots is faux-open-minded bigots who lord their open-mindedness over those who are less so and attack them when they show even the slightest sign of growth. “Oh, you realize you were wrong? GOOD ALLOW ME TO INSULT YOU AND EVERYTHING YOU STOOD FOR EVEN THOUGH YOU CLEARLY ARE RETHINKING IT”
Yup. Hit them with that guilt too hard and they might just back away from that growth and desperately start burying themselves back in their ignorance so they don’t have to face it.
Not to mention, Roz is wrong. Joyce was (and is) a member of a church that doesn’t tolerate queerness, but she personally hasn’t done anything (that we’re aware of) to actively get LGBQT* kids disowned. The only thing she is guilty of is blindly following the path her parents and church set out for her.
Now Mary I’m willing to bet would and has taken an active role in attacking queer kids; but Joyce? Had all sorts of assumptions that she started dropping pretty much immediately after seeing them diametrically opposed to reality (for example, in the comic where Ethan came out as gay to her, and she replied “You seem normal.”).
So not really true, and really, really not fair of Roz.
I can’t wait until tomorrow. It’s like watching Russian traffic accidents on YouTube. Suddenly, there will be a car upside down in a ditch, but you aren’t quite sure which one it will be or how it will get there…
This is a good point. To make a point about the flip side of this: I’m from California, and I’ve had gay friends probably all my life and definitely from my teens on up. I never felt the need to actively be an ally in even a small way until I went to grad school in Texas, because I just assumed that the bigots and idiots were in the minority.
Passive support is still support.
Not to mention Joyce was never taught about any of these subjects until she came to the college. It’s not that she was passively supporting them, it’s that she was more…sheltered from how bad things could really be and actively closed them out of her vision.
She’s finally coming to her senses and Roz basically threw her open eyes into the dirt to make herself feel good about giving what she thinks is “righteous truth” to someone who was already realizing how much injustice was abound. Joyce wasn’t a monster who came around, she was an innocent who didn’t know better and is making strides towards improving. How she is helping and accepting Becky, as a lesbian, and stopped referring to her queer nature as a ‘mistake’ shows that.
Granted, we’re the audience, and know everything about said improvement, but Roz is being awful here.
I totally looked up russian traffic accidents after reading this. I am not disappointed.
Roz’s anger is justified but it is neither the time nor the place to bring this up, and as you said, there is a chance that this could stunt or stop any personal growth here. You shouldn’t attack people for becoming better people unless you want to try to make them stay bad people. The best way to fight hate is with love, not more hate.
um, “The only thing more annoying than closed-minded bigots is faux-open-minded bigots who lord their open-mindedness”… no? Being self-righteous in a mean way is not OK, granted, but needing time to forgive, or just snapping at people whatever the reason cannot be compared to shaming people for their sexuality. Which by the way is what Joyce herself did to Roz on one of their first encounters
Close-mindedness can happen to people irrespective of their ideology. When a particular set of values is viewed as open-minded you get the situation where dogmatic people are called open-minded. The hypocrisy of dogmatic “open-mindedness” is more annoying to contend with, but as of yet as done less harm.
Ugh, exactly. Every time Roz shows up she gets a ridiculous amount of hate and presumption. I’m not saying some of it isn’t deserved – she’s definitely out of line but damn it, she’s got a point and she’s not wrong for being frustrated with Joyce. OR for Dorothy for enabling her for that matter.
Keep in mind, Roz back in the Shortpacked-verse was so “open-minded” about sex-positivity that when a man turned her down for casual sex for a reason she didn’t like she basically stalked him until he gave in, wrecking his life in the process, and was never ever called on that.
So while this version of Roz may not have done anything like that, it’s in no way out of character and she still gets the hate her prior incarnation earned.
I’m not sure the Roz who gives cards to people she actively dislikes for help if she thinks they need it deserves to be lumped in the same boat as her SP! Counterpart.
I think the problem here is Joyce’s phrasing in yesterday’s page. “I am so angry at the church!” in no way admits any personal responsibility for the things Joyce herself has said and done to sex-positive and/or queer people in the past few weeks. It sounds like “the church has hurt these people but I’m still innocent!” I think THAT is what’s bringing Roz to pinpoint “that church was YOU!” today.
And look at Joyce’s reaction. She knows Roz isn’t wrong.
yes, exactly
But isn’t she wrong, I mean, Joyce just never knew
about any of this. Roz is sorta just kicking a
puppy, Joyce IS starting to learn. Being mean, while
justified, isn’t okay
It’s true that Joyce is using weasel words to distance herself from guilt, but it’s unreasonable and unrealistic to expect her to climb up on a cross and beg the class for forgiveness. And, although Roz doesn’t actually know this, Joyce is actually housing a newly homeless gay youth in her dorm room, AND doing her best to protect her.
Ultimately Roz’s only real goal is gatekeeping: she cares about it more, she cares about it first, she cares about it without having it directly affect someone around her.
I guess I missed where Joyce had been throwing kids out of their homes for being “not right”.
She isn’t in a position to do that, but she’s obediently supporting the people who do. And in the meantime she’s hating homosexuality, telling her gay boyfriend to resist temptation and thinks it’s appropriate to convert jewish people to christianity.
*cough*tumblr*cough*
You can just say “reddit atheists”, we all know that’s what you mean.
Your response is a case in point.
You are no more open-minded nor close-minded than the man you responded to. The OP was commenting that both Roz AND the church were in the wrong (not even going so far as to say all churches, just Joyce’s particular congregation), and both were being close minded. The fact that you immediately jumped to the defense of all churches with a none-to-surprising “holier than thou” spouting of anger means you just need to open your mind to more sides of the argument. The best way to understand your own viewpoint and defend it is to learn and understand what the other side is saying, not casting them down with rage and hellfire. If you can intelligently bring up their own points and debunk them, you’re on the fast track to being better able to defend your own perspective.
Please, think on it, and don’t let anger or passion guide all of your actions.
No, I gotta go with Roz on this one. It’s true, Joyce completely and utterly didn’t give a damn about how her entire belief system, how her entire structure of living, was hurting people, until it personally affected her. She can learn from that, but the truth is that it shouldn’t have taken her friend being hurt by evil for her to have spoken out against it. Roz is right – Joyce doesn’t get to be the hero today. And if Joyce wasn’t personally affected by it, she would STILL be part of a group which systematically oppresses people. Roz is being disruptive, sure, and can get kicked out of class. But she’s not wrong.
It shouldn’t have, except her best friend being hurt by that was the first clue that someone WAS being hurt by it.
Ah, teacher smackdowns. Such a refreshing sight to see.
not unlike a Rider Kick, right, my friend?
Yea, but we all know the track record of most female Riders.
Now you’ve got me thinking of Leslie and Robin as Kamen Rider W. Damm.
Roz does have a point but, really? Seems like she’s a bit of a grump today. Maybe she has low blood sugar.
Or she’s a lesbian herself!
or bi
Yep, we have video proof that she’s not a lesbian (unless she was faking it in the sex tape).
As much as I loathe Joe, I will admit if anyone could tell a woman was faking enjoying sex it would be him.
I’ve heard it’s possible for the ladies to expertly fake themselves getting to Happyville, but as far as the overall time together that would seem to me to be much harder to fake, esp with someone like Joe who’s well-versed in the ins-and-outs of the situation.
Robin asked her that and she specifically said no.
Didn’t specifically rule out bi or anything else, but certainly implied it wasn’t the case. (Attributed her “start kissing girls onstage” threat to Robin to just getting out of things, not attraction.)
This sets Roz apart from someone like Joe. As a character, Joe is extremely flat and nobody IRL is extremely flat. It makes you realize that something is going on inside is head that we don’t know. To be honest, I kinda agree with Roz but I would never say that out loud to someone like Joyce cause 1. I’m not a dickwad and 2. That’s the kind of thing you have to realize yourself like Joyce just did.
Joe is very similar to Walky in that he intentionally acts immature and superficial in attempt to “simplify” his life. They both have moments that show a lot of emotional depth and awareness. But otherwise the two of them put a lot of effort into avoiding sentimentality, in no small part due to their very traditional views on masculinity.
Oh, and I definitely agree that Roz does have a valid point underneath all of her hostility. But she’s putting it in the least helpful way possible and is an enormous jerkwad for acting like the gatekeeper to LGBT support.
I’m getting the impression what’s gotten Roz so upset (assuming it is indeed entirely about what’s happening here, and has nothing to do with what her time-bomb of a roommate is up to lately) is it looks like, to her, that Joyce is getting the spotlight (“I’m supposed to treat Miss Fundy like a goddamn hero?!”) that should belong to someone who actually deserves it. The disgust for Joyce’s disassociation with her upbringing’s collective sins seems to serve to cover up her less idealogical reasons…Ones that are very much beside the point for such serious issues… For this to upset her so much…
That’s my view exactly. They both put up a smokescreen to hide what’s going on upstairs, probably for different reasons.
or a bigot. 🙁
Agreed. Roz seems to be really emotionally angered by this discussion — maybe it’s personal for her, too.
At what point do compassion and feelings have to give way to cold hard truth, though?
Roz is right; until someone close to Joyce turned out to be one of the “other”, the nicest thing she would do for them is try to convert them. I’m tired of politicians and clergy and other religious people suddenly turn from a lifetime of discrimination just because one of their kids turns out to be gay. Hey, I was someone’s kid too, but you didn’t give a shit about me until it turned out you had a personal stake in it.
As much as I want to believe that people can change, and as much as I want to open my arms to the people who do, I’ve wanted to say what Roz has said in this strip many times, and I can’t help but get some satisfaction from seeing it.
“You changed your mind for the wrong reason!” seems like a really stupid thing to be mad at someone for. Everyone has their own reasons for realizing things. Are we really gonna sit here and rank these reasons as if you have the right to judge?
It is a stupid thing to be mad about, I know, and in the end, I’ll take as many allies as are willing, but I’m just not as quick to forgive as I should be, because it’s not easy to forgive it.
I don’t think it’s about changing her mind for the wrong reasons as it is about being a hypocrite. As I recall Joyce judged Roz in the past for the sex thing and she’s going to keep being judgmental until more people close to her cause her to change her mind overtime.
To be honest I sometimes feel that it takes a person turning into a hypocrite and confronting that hypocrisy before they develop as a person. Some of our decisions while growing tend to be rife with hypocrisy.
I feel it’s not about either. If you don’t examine your beliefs except when something occurs that happens to your friends, then you won’t examine nearly all of your beliefs.
Joyce has been fighting the moral requirement to question for some time. In fact, that struggle is arguably the ongoing theme of the comic as a whole.
That is also true. But it takes all kinds things to grow and not all things work the same for everyone.
This storyline is really doing a lot for the discussions. Lots of heated comments. 🙂
It seems like Heinous Acts wasn’t mad that politicians changed stance for the wrong reason, but that these politicians kept their old, personally harmful stance for decades, during which they perpetuated homophobia and enacted really hurtful laws. It would’ve been nice if they’d skipped all those decades in the middle and properly treated everyone like family from the get-go.
Since we don’t have a time machine, I’m happy to celebrate the late-bloomers, too. But Roz has a point — maybe not to Joyce, who is trying hard and learning, but to the powerful adults in Joyce’s life who really ought to know better.
Not so much, “you changed your mind for the wrong reason”, as “you are a selfish person who cannot be depended on to do the right thing unless it suits you personally”.
+1
Yes! Exactly my thoughts.
Pretty much my thoughts. The way Roz went about saying this was aggressive but she has a point and she’s not required to be nice to Joyce while calling her out on her hypocrisy. But because she went about it like she did in a classroom where order and a certain level of respect need to be maintained for the sake of the learning environment Leslie was justified in removing her.
God, this so much.
Challenging your previous views is not hypocrisy.
Damning the system for its transgressions without acknowledging that you’re part of the same system, however, is.
Noo, not at all. More like “You had no idea how this actually worked until it happened to someone close to you who confided in you”. Joyce isn’t selfish, there wasn’t anything selfish in her behaviour to date. She just didn’t understand, in this particular case, that she was harming people instead of helping them.
The problem with Roz’s outburst is that it doesn’t do any good at all. Joyce just learned something important, she is now capable of compassion where she didn’t previously have it, she is saying, out loud, that she is ANGRY at her church because of how it treats people, where previously she was certain the church was correct. Not the mark of a selfish person.
And what purpose is there to Roz shitting on that? Except to make her feel morally superior to Joyce, I guess. Bleh.
More like “You didn’t think about this till it affected someone you know personally”. Not thinking about your morals till you put them into practice is exactly why Joyce is having to readjust her morals right now.
Expecting people to have a fully functioning, real world tested sense of morality before they’ve even moved out from their parent’s roof for the first time is frankly ludicrous. We might as well criticize high schoolers for their lack of real world job experience.
I think people aren’t so upset at the message but how it was used. Roz is right but she’s kind of using the truth as a weapon to hurt Joyce. Even after Leslie’s warning. I don’t know who pissed in her Coco Puffs but being mean isn’t cool. But I guess it had to be said.
“I will make that hypocrisy hurt.” Frank Underwood/Roz
Robin. Robin pissed in her Coco Puffs.
Robin? Isn’t Mary Roz’ roommate? Mary is basically Joyce without the good intentions.
That’s a really good point actually! Mary might giving Roz a rather negative impression. That kind of sucks.
In the DoA universe robin isn’t awesome but rather a politician who makes stupid crap laws that are anti-LGBT. Kinda a dillema for leslie, no?
eh, based on what i could tell, Robin was the democratic equivalent of Sarah Palin politically. Both had/have no idea what they’re doing yet still gained popularity and political power
This isn’t Walkyverse Robin who just woke up in Congress one day. I’m pretty sure this Robin knows exactly what she’s doing; it’s just that what she’s doing is a cynical and hypocritical bid for personal gain at the expense of others. She even explained her evil master plan in this very classroom three weeks ago.
Leslie is awesome, but she has lousy taste in women.
somehow i mixed up the two robins in my head. i’m tired.
I can absolutely see Mary and Roz feeding off of each other, forming this wormhole of partisan hatred. They’re essentially the same person, deep down inside, but they have wildly different political views. The problem, of course, is that this person they both are is a selfish, heartless, hateful bongo.
When they see each other, they see horrible people, and then they use that as a generalization for each other’s entire affiliation, worsening the hatred they already have
Yes. However, comparing “uses the truth as a weapon” should still not be compared to “participates in ad perpetuates a culture of hate, shame and oppression”… the two are just not at the same level of evil
You’re right, you shouldn’t be comparing them. Evil is evil, don’t be evil. Opposing evil is NOT a justification for committing evil.
Statement: Opposing people who harm someone is not a justification for harming someone.
Implication: No police.
No armies.
No prisons
No punishments
No superheroes.
Correct! Welcome to libertarianism! Hope you enjoy your new-found freedom from the police state.
There’s a difference between being evil (see cartoon villains, Galasso) and just being a jerk for no reason. Mike, on the other hand, avoids both categories by being a jerk for a reason.
A++
No, they shouldn’t be compared, but what Roz is doing is something that could very well come across as “You weren’t accepting in the past, so I won’t let you be accepting now!” I’d rather expect that most people who were doubtful about being accepting of LGBT people in the past would be more inclined to drop all support they were about to give in the face of a statement like that.
Source: I used to not be accepting, am now, and had similar experiences. It took a lot of work to push through and continue to be accepting. That was years ago, but even now I still feel twinges of “Am I actually accepting enough?”
That’s really beside the point.
When someone who’s been insensitive finally starts getting a clue, it is really, really dumb to belabor the point anywhere near that harshly. Or at all, really.
This isn’t about forgiving Joyce for her ignorance. It’s about helping her overcome it.
Joyce could grow into a powerful bridge to the fundies back home. I understand. Roz’s frustration in the moment, but hopefully Roz will realize that this alienation is a dumb move for Roz’s bigger cause.
Oh, she will get serious blowback for trying that, which is why she needs all the support she can get. Not because she necessarily deserves it, but because it’s of strategic interest.
Yeah… I agree what Roz is doing is definitely the smartest thing to do, but I really understand where she’s coming from. Even though she’s not a lesbian or a trans girl, she has still been shamed for her sexuality, and by Joyce herself nonetheless, and she seems keenly aware of patriarcal oppression in general. It’s a good thing Leslie is here to moderate her and protect Joyce, but I can’t bring myself to blame an angry teenager for telling the truth to a clueless one, even if it is in this abrasive way.
Roz: doing her best to drive Joyce back into the arms of fundie-dom!
I makes her easier to discount that way.
There are plenty of religious people who weren’t discriminatory to begin with.
Just because the ones who are loudest are the ones who are bigots doesn’t mean that the rest are.
You’re not wrong, but that minority can’t be ignored. I don’t think that you are saying they should be, but I personally feel that comments saying, “we’re not all like that!” distract from the issue. I’m sure you didn’t mean it to do that, but such comments come across to me as needlessly defensive.
+1
It’s not a “we’re not all like that” comment, but it is defensive.
In this case, defending Joyce. Her alignment with religion does not automatically put her in the same catagory as those who kick gay kids out of the house.
Saying “Roz is right, but…” is doing more damage than good, because Roz ISN’T right. If you want to actually focus on the issue, focus on THE ISSUE, and don’t alienate people who would be your allies by putting them into the same catagory as your enemies.
True, but Joyce wasn’t really one of them. Homosexuality on par with lying? That was her view once.
True, but Joyce wasn’t really one of them. Homosexuality on par with lying? That was her view once.
But her Church is, and up until the latest turn of events, Joyce’s primary mode of operation has been blind obedience. And that’s a very harmful choice, and is really what Roz is angry about.
Let me put it this way–you think this is the first time some kid in Joyce’s church suddenly stopped attending and no one really talked about why, because it was too uncomfortable to explain that the kid was now living in a refrigerator carton in Indianapolis?
++++++++ “I was someone’s kid too, but you didn’t give a shit about me until it turned out you had a personal stake in it.” YESSSSS.
*claps*
I wouldn’t even say it’s the wrong reason. But, yeah, you were someone’s kid, too. Before politician X had a child who was homosexual, other people had stories to share that they would have been glad to share with politician X. There were lobbyists just for that effort, don’t you know.
The opportunities to get the same education on this topic, that politician X didn’t get until politician X’s own child became that education, existed and, in fact, were eager to avail themselves of politician X. Politician X wouldn’t have had to make much of an effort. In fact, Politician X would only have had to stop the effort to refuse such an education.
So, it’s not a bad reason… it’s just a late reason, a very late reason. Better than never, but still very late.
Problem is, we are quite good at filtering out information that runs contrary to our views. Very hard to filter out your own son or daughter, though – although some still manage.
That’s true. It’s very understandable how Politician X, Clergyperson Y, or even College Student Z could manage to filter this out.
However, understandable and acceptable aren’t the same thing.
On the last point, I agree completely. It’s just that I take a pragmatic view towards changing minds – we need to use tactics that work when the end result is so important to achieve (in my mind).
To be fair to Joyce though she’s hardly a politician or a clergy member. She’s an 18 year old kid raised by a pair of nutjobs IMO. I understand why Roz is hurt; I never came out to my father for fear of being tossed out. But turning on the more or less powerless Joyce is kicking a puppy for the actions of a dog, so to speak.
This can be boiled down to human nature. We are very resistant to ideas that run counter to our beliefs. We will automatically search for evidence that supports our beliefs, and automatically scrutinize evidence that runs counter to our beliefs. This is known as confirmation bias.
Yes, confirmation bias can be overcome, but not easily.
One suspects that Roz is less concerned about Joyce and more concerned about displaying her own ethical superiority.
not really, her outburst seems more emotional than satisfied: she’s angry at Joyce for holding such hurtful beliefs. But remember how she reacted when she got the impression Joyce had went through something terrible at the party? She immediately gave her contacts to seek help, while not asking any inconsiderate questions – a smart and compassionate thing to do.
You’re lucky you’re so pretty, otherwise I wouldn’t listen to you.
Seriously though, I guess you’re right. It’s just me who’s projecting my cynicism on these poor kids.
*joewagon cooly withdraws*
She’s not wrong. She’s just an asshole.
Pretty much
It’s like…she has a point, but she’s only bringing it up the exact second after Joyce gets the message.
Indeed, she’s not wrong, but her condescension is still, well, condescension.
In this situation, how is she any better than the faith-based support group for the homeless who turn away LGBT youths? Here we have Joyce coming to terms with how a lot of people who share her religion end up using it to treat people terribly, and instead of being supportive, she shuns Joyce away with a “you should’ve had your epithany sooner!”.
I’m not a fan of Roz here either, but I’m not sure “she’s just as bad as people who leave kids on the street for having a non-normative sexuality or gender!” is the best argument…?
Likewise, I remain to be convinced that Roz actually has a point.
For all that Joyce has had some weird perspectives, it’s pretty clear she’s never been on board with the “hate everybody different” side of religion.
No, she’s not on board with it. To Joyce, God is a loving entity. She’s been hit headfirst with the growing divide between what she has been taught is right and wrong, and what she personally believes.
Roz is being harsh, yes. I have the sinking feeling that she is not being nearly as harsh as what Joyce is hearing in her own head right now– or what David Willis heard in his, when he went through this crisis.
There’s a part of me that wonders if it’s less a personal interest that makes Joyce take this stance so much as a realization that faith-based charities don’t take a ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ approach to things (which has always been more Joyce’s style).
I think what’s been going on has been a part of Joyce’s gradual understanding that “love the sinner, hate the sin” (or “hate the sin, not the sinner” which is how I recall that usually being phrased) still involves hate, which is why it’s not really a good option for anyone who would call themselves a God-loving Christian.
True; my thought being more that a charity would still have a duty to care for the person, regardless of what they’d done, in Joyce’s view.
Reply Volkai: Well, actually, you do hate sin. God hates it. So mwah too.
Right now I think she’s focusing on Becky. Give her some time, and she may realize that “hate the sin, not the sinner” is nothing but a smokescreen to allow the “righteous” to feel good about hating people who aren’t like them.
You don’t need to agree with everything a person does in order to support them.
I see Roz’s point quite clearly, though she is being cruel to make it here and now. Truth is, the hard-hitting, god-hates-fags homophobes are getting rarer and more fringe. But there are a lot of people like Joyce out there who think homosexuality is a sin and gay people can be “fixed”. Let’s not forget that she is still in a relationship with a gay man she entered with the intent to do just that. People like Joyce aren’t out there committing hate crimes, but they do cause harm. She needs to realize this, and Roz may be ripping off the band-aid by doing it this way. Of course, that might backfire spectacularly.
Let’s not forget the gay boyfriend she’s trying to “fix” implied to her that he WANTS to be “fixed.” He’s as much a party to their relationship as Joyce is.
Although to be fair, it was a bit stronger than implying. It may never have been said strait out (PUN RECOGNITION FORBIDDEN), he got pretty close to saying “Joyce, I don’t want to be like this. Please fix me.”
Wasn’t she carrying Chick tracts?
Verb-tense difference there, that active discrimination is in the present for the “faith-based” organizations, but was only tangential for Joyce and us now in the past. Roz is not wrong for expressing what many are thinking, just expressing it in the wrong way.
Nuh-huh. Joyce was clearly on board with the “hate the sin, love the sinner train”… which is a terrible, hurtful train, even if if DOES allow you to give shelter to homeless teens of all orientations. Roz is too angry to be nice or even considerate here, but she is a 100% right
Roz’s reaction is… pretty much mine. I’m having a hard time sympathizing with Joyce given Ethan. >.> And I get that she’s learning and I appreciate that. I just don’t have the time or energy to deal with “hate the sin, love the sinner” because @&#% that nosie.
Joyce isn’t the only guilty party where Ethan is concerned. Remember that Ethan desperately wants to receive what Joyce wants to give. She’s providing a comfortable lie that he craves.
The thing is, Joyce hasn’t changed. She still feels the exact same way about every other issue she has been taught about, and if Becky suddenly stopped being gay, she would suddenly stop caring about that issue too.
This is purely a selfish lie that Joyce is telling herself, and therefore merits being called out.
Note: Joyce is still against pre-marital hanky panky. Apparently, she hasn’t realized that means that she is still against the active homosexual lifestyle.
Gay marriage is legal in Indiana, so she can both accept that people are gay and be against pre-marital sex without it being a contradiction.
Joyce has even explicitly acknowledged that.
I have a feeling that now the dam has burst, she’s not going to stop caring about homosexuality. Yes, she still has a long way to go for her other view points, but now that Leslie has pointed out the trouble the LGBT+ community has at the hands of the Church, and it has had it’s effect, I don’t think she’ll drop it any time soon, regardless of what happens next.
“active homosexual lifestyle”?
Seriously?
Didn’t you know? You’re not REALLY gay unless you’ve boned someone of the same sex. Your thoughts, feelings and emotional attachments to others don’t matter – it’s all about the BUTTSECKS. (Or pussysecks without dicks involved. Whichever. :p)
/sarcasticcuteanimal
Okay, I get that sex is part of the whole gay/lesbien/agender/longlistofothersexesandgenders thing, but do you REALLY have to go into details?
Im with Roz you dont award stupid people just because they happen to not be stupid once or even if they happen to stop being stupid all together
Useing stupid as a general word
Thing is, acting like Roz is here Does Not Help Anything. What you get here is not people realizing “oh I was being stupid and should stop being stupid”, you get people coming to the realization that someone who calls you stupid is mean, and you should ignore them no matter how right anything they say might be.
Nothing good comes of this!
Joyce isn’t stupid, she’s ignorant–a mushroom: she’s been kept in the dark and fed shit. When her environment changed she learned. But no props for ignorant kids who learn!! Chastise them for their former ignorance!! I hope you aren’t a professional teacher.
as a fomer kid who was kept in the dark but had a sharp eye i am in the perfect place to chastise her but people would deny me my right for thier own satisfaction
lol, holy shit
this person made joyce feel guilty, this is just as bad as people dying in the gutter for being queer
thank you
thaaaaaanks
I didn’t realize that anti-gay organizations are acting out of hurt or rage at having been deeply wronged by gays. I mean ACTUALLY wronged not “your very existence offends me”. Given who Roz is, it’s very likely she personally knows people who have been hurt by people like Joyce, if she hasn’t herself.
What the actual shit is wrong with you. Why would you think ‘person who is tactless to someone having a personal epiphany literally decades behind the rest of society, which is also pretty shit by the way’ is on the same level with ‘literally tearing families apart and costing lives.’
That was a horrible leap in logic.
Roz, while being harsh and its inappropriate to do this in a college classroom, is in the right. However, roz isn’t tossing Joyce out into the street! She’s saying “YOU were involved and had an ACTIVE voice in the very things you are now denouncing, you can’t separate yourself so easily”. That doesn’t make her some horrible person. It’s harsh, but its true.
Throwing that back in Joyce’s face solves nothing, though. She’s lucky that Joyce has Becky to fall back on: absent a real person with real suffering to pin this on, in the face of this kind of fairly direct attack most people I know would fall back and double down on their original position. It’s scary and uncomfortable feeling wrong and the easiest way to ease that discomfit is to revert to whichever position is most obviously “right”. And who would seem more right, with no Becky around? Her friends, her family, her pastor, her “ex-gay” boyfriend, or the rude person tearing her down in the middle of what was supposed to be a safe space?
While she’s not wrong it was also something that didn’t need to be said, Joyce had a just demonstrated that she understood, she realised what was important and what was horribly wrong. This was Roz kicking her while she was down for no reason other than to fee her own sense of arrogance. After all, if Roz cared so much why didn’t she make these exact points to Joyce weeks ago?
Ya know, Roz, this is kind of the strategy Fundies use to recruit? The whole “you a sinner, SHAME” spiel??
I wanna say
Whoa. Well put, Jen.
like, both sides, man *vapes*
Aww, man.
Roz is right. She IS. Joyce isn’t a hero.
But we’re ALL assholes, to some extent. Joyce comes from a more conservative background; that she is learning is all one can ask for. She’s not a monster, either. She’s a good person, ultimately.
Some of the awesomest trans* activists I know grew up self-loathing (At least one of them has a story about arguing against marriage). Some of us managed to dodge that bullet, but that was LUCK, not righteousness.
Also, the purpose of a call-out is to end the behavior that hurts others. Roz basically just calls someone out AFTER she realized the behaviour was harmful. Not terribly productive! Also, yelling at Dorothy is bullshit.
That said, I kind of empathize with Roz here. Joyce WAS the church up until yesterday, and of course she doesn’t realize that yet. Of course, she will, with due time. But she doesn’t yet.
argh why didn’t this post at the bottom? I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW TO COMMENT ON THIS SITE!
It’s simple. To post at the bottom you use the comment box at the bottom. There’s only one comment box, so if you try to reply to a comment, it moves from the bottom and you’ll need to find it and click ‘Cancel reply’ (below ‘Comment’) to restore it to the bottom. If you want to reply instead, click ‘Reply’ where it appears between someone’s username and their comment. If you change your mind about replying, try to remember to click ‘Cancel reply’ so that the comment box doesn’t get lost.
I don’t appear to have a cancel reply button. Maybe my zoom is wrong or something. Thanks, though.
When you click ‘Reply’, and the comment box appears under the comment you want to reply to, there will be a red link below the big bold ‘Comment’ that says ‘Cancel reply’ (just above the ‘Name’ field). If you don’t see that link when you comment, you’re probably at the bottom of the comments page. If you’re not… then, that’s weird.
The thing about Dorothy is, Roz isn’t wrong. Dorothy HAS been enabling Joyce this whole time, and coddling Joyce *isn’t* helping her.
Joyce *doesn’t* deserve a standing slow clap for finally figuring out she’s been passively part of the problem. She needs to have that point driven into her thick ass skull while there’s a crack formed in her “Jesus loves me this I know” armor plating. Before she seals it back up and the truth just clangs off it again.
Was she more hostile then she should have been? Sure. But Joyce has been “La la la”ing so hard I can’t imagine anyone who hasn’t been part of her inner circle is willing to put up with her.
She’s probably just a less vicious Mary to everyone not a main character.
But no one is giving Joyce a standing ovation; no one is calling Joyce a hero. Roz is really just saying “oh, Joyce, you realize how much your brand of Christianity has harmed others? Instead of moving forward and doing good with that realization, or instead of being encouraged to make more realizations like that, how about you stew in all the negative things that you really had not choice in the matter of believing in, because you were literally never exposed to anything else.”
I was raised in really anti-gay places, and my dad was really anti-anything except straight and cis. But my turning point? It was during the whole Arther/ Buster Bunny show, where the guest star was a girl with two moms. And there was a whole huge “controversy” about them being on a kids show, and one of the moms on the new was like “I feel like they are saying I’m somehow inhuman” and my dad said a sarcastic “*somehow* inhuman?” And I was like, “You know what? She looks pretty human to me!” And then I got the sh*t beat out of me. But up until then, I had been told that gay people *were* wrong, and *were* less than human, and I literally had no gay people to compare this to and see if it was false. I had parents who I was supposed to be able to trust tell me this stuff. And my punishment for disagree was physical, compared to Joyce’s emotional, but punishment in the form of emotional estrangement from God is a very real thing for her. If you’re going to be an activist, you have to understand that people on “the other side” aren’t always evil and hellbent on “my way or the highway”; they literally think that being gay somehow brings the devil into our homes. They have been taught and conditioned this and in some cases had it beaten in to us, be it physically or emotionally. And a lot of people don’t get an “Aha” moment like I did. Joyce just had her aha moment, and slammed her down. Joyce is a strong character, but I have seen slammings like lead to suicide. Mental dissonance is not an easy thing to deal with, and Dorothy is doing good by being “an atheist, not an asshole,” as she put it, which, to Joyce, was something impossible up until a month ago in comic time. Roz is being the “evil scary liberal” that Joyce has been conditioned to fear.
I’m sure if Roz hadn’t piped up, someone would have started a slow clap. at least in here by now.
Roz is being a jerk yes. But Roz is also PISSED.
Maybe if Joyce hadn’t been.. you know.. trying to panky away the gay on Ethan, I’d be less on Roz’s side here. I’d be more “Damn, Joyce didn’t deserve to be hit over the head with that so hard Roz.”
But.. you know, she did do the thing. As hurtful as it is to hear.
There are times you can coddle people, and there are times when it’s useless to coddle them anymore, and force them to put on their big girl pants and wake the hell up to how they have been acting.
Because if you NEVER challenge them, if you’re supportive and nice and head patting and there-there’ing them *all* the time? There is a bigger chance that they never leave the basement of their belief structure, and just make excuses while never putting the work in to grow into a better person.
+
In this case, yeah, absolutely. Roz’s technique results in an embarrassed and scared Joyce who won’t readily risk opening up her mind to new ideas. For somebody interested in winning hearts and minds, Roz’s approach is pretty aggressive, abrasive, and unpleasant.
Plus one internets for you. Wherever will you keep them all?
Why doesn’t it matter? It completely matters. Joyce seriously needs to realize this and face it. She is still dating a gay guy with the sole purpose of changing his sexuality! If her best friend hadn’t come out to her, I bet her response to this reveal would have been “The church wants to rehabilitate those poor, misguided people? That’s so wonderful! I’m so glad those kids are getting the help they need!”. 24 hours ago she literally was the very church she is now decrying.
It’s going to hurt like hell, but she NEEDS to face this. Maybe this isn’t the right time, but Roz is doing the same thing Joyce just did- making an emotional outburst about something that clearly upset her. I’m actually quite annoyed that Joyce was allowed to disrupt the class like that, but Roz is being removed. Joyce just attacked an entire, major religion that other people in the class belong to. If she hadn’t been Christian, would she have been allowed to say that?
Why IS Joyce lauded for attacking people and disrupting the class, while Roz is in the wrong for it?
The difference in the situations is that Joyce is angry with “The Church” / specific Institutions that she is reacting to the information she’s just been given; she’s angry but not attacking anyone. Roz though is talking explicitly about Joyce and is attacking her earlier “lack of anger”.
Leslie said they are to talk about the material and not each other. Roz is only talking about Joyce and refuses to stop that’s why she is told to leave.
At least that’s hows I read it.
Yeah… I’m not sure Batman made this funny.
Oh, as much empathy as I and some others here have for Roz’s position, I agree that Leslie not only has the right to have her leave, she has the responsibility. Just because Joyce may have needed to hear this in some form, doesn’t mean she needed to hear it right now, in this setting.
Roz is rightfully pointing out that Joyce is divesting herself of responsibility. Joyce is saying the church shouldn’t, but ignoring the fact that she was part of that church and supported that church right up until it clashed with her life experience. Joyce is re-writing her personal history, failing to admit to her part in past social pressures and bigotry. She is a hypocrite.
In this instance, Joyce is the material. She is part of the problem.
In this specific instance Joyce is not the material as they were being taught about how some organizations threat LGBT+ youths. Joyce is not an organization or running one. Leslie also explicitly states that the students are not part of the material, at that point both Dorothy and Roz should not have continued talking about Joyce during the class.
The only thing I will say about who is right and wrong in this situation is this: Dorothy and Roz are wrong for continuing to talk about Joyce after Leslie explicitly says “We talk about the material not each other”.
Joyce expressed anger towards an institution, and was responded to with an attack on herself. allowing a classroom where a student is allowed to personally attack another student is pretty much the worst way to run a class, and Leslie is a better teacher then that.
No, she wasn’t. Bear in mind that while she is dating Ethan specifically to change him, this is change that he visibly seeks and help he encourages. Ethan doesn’t want to be gay and in doing so reinforces her naive belief that she’s helping him.
Joyce was “part of the church” until literally ANY alternative was offered to her.
I think it did need to be said. Even though she accepted Becky and she’s majorly conflicted about what she’s doing to Ethan, she has yet to recognize her complicity in the oppression she’s railing against. Joyce has actively participated in the oppression of queer people, and even if her attitudes and reactions are a byproduct of the belief system in which she was raised, until she recognizes that she is wrong, she won’t change. Not really.
But now there’s more to Ethan and Joyce than just the anti-gay thing. Ethan and Joyce have a sort of deal Joyce would have to break, which both Joyce and Ethan are worried about hurting him. So instead of giving Joyce a way out, Ethan currently has Joyce stuck trying to go both ways at once.
I don’t even think Roz is an asshole. I have been calling church-girl despicable since she started helping Ethan stay in the closet. Little Miss Judgmental deserves a public reaming for her behavior.
+1
“church-girl” has known literally nothing else for her entire life. it has been less than a month for her exposure to a larger world. shafting her for the opinions forced on her in childhood that she is finally realizing were wrong, at this point in time, is going to do more harm than good.
Roz is being a dick. You can be right and still be a dick. Don’t be a dick.
Agreed. This isn’t Reddit… or Imgur… so I won’t give you a “+1” but I do believe affirmation for your comment is the right choice. 😀
How can you enjoy this webcomic when you dislike the main character?
There really is no main character. Joyce, Walky, Amber, Ethan, Danny, Dorothy and several other people all have their own arcs.
Agreed. I don’t like Joyce, so I read for all of the other characters, who have just as much air time as she does.
Simple. You wait for the point when she breaks down due to reality contradicting her fundie beliefs. It gets closer and closer with strips like these.
Shrug, you can still like the comic while not caring much about Joyce’s ongoing deprogramming.
Other stuff I like:
Amazigirl
Walky and Sal’s friendship
Walky and Joyce bickering
Mike being Mike
Joe’s usually pretty amusing
Ruth and Billie in any context other than psychosexual suicide pact mode
It’s a pretty large strip, with a bunch of stuff going on, and Willis is pretty good about bouncing around the focus. I can roll my eyes at Joyce saying “hanky panky you, church!” while still enjoying the rest.
She’s been the focus lately but she really isn’t the main character. A lot of the interactions are about pointing out what a goob she is, too.
Just because you’re the same as someone else doesn’t magically make you, or them, any less of an asshole.
Yup, because when someone believes things that you feel are harmful, the lesson you want them to learn is that there is no point in ever changing those beliefs. Because you will never forgive them for what they used to believe. Because if they try and change their ways, try and stop being harmful and start being helpful they will gain no friends from it. All they’ll do is wind up hated by both sides of the issue where before they at least had a community they could belong to.
Really, is the lesson that when you find you’ve been believing something shitty that the best decision is to double down and keep holding to those beliefs because there can be no redemption the one you want people to learn?
Yeah. I understand Roz’s frustration, but she’s jumping down Joyce’s throat just as Joyce is finally getting it, and that’s a really stupid move for Roz’s bigger purpose. Winning human rights needs to be way more important than being the most righteous person in the room at a given moment, you know?
You’re right, Roz is putting her personal hurt feelings before Joyce’s growth. It’s not the smartest thing to do, but I get why a teenager might have a hard time keeping her temper under check when confronted whith unwittingly harmful ignorance such as Joyce. Thankfully, Leslie is here to bring balance and provide a safe learning environment, yay for Leslie! The world needs an almighty Leslie
This. This this this this this. Thank you Idris for writing what I was going to post but better.
I take it a different way, in that Roz is hammering in the “This is YOU.. not *just* the church. *YOU* were part of this, and you need to understand and own it and not just throw the blame at someone else to make yourself feel better.”
Joyce is learning.. but she’s STILL got her head up her ass and can’t see her own bullshit. And Roz is rightly sick and tired of people enabling people like joyce.
yeah. And obviously it can’t be easy to unlearn what was THE TRUTH for a lifetime. But she’s STILL DOING IT. Maybe it set her soul at ease to do the research and come to the conclusion that “probably being gay isn’t a sin” but it hurt Becky when she found out.
“Aren’t you glad you won’t be burning in hell because you’re not technically a sinner? I’m glad I wasn’t wrong about you being a good person Becky!”
“Yeah… thanks for that Joyce.. I’m glad I squeaked past the hellfire line and am still capable of being your friend, you ass.”
No.. I’m not had this talk.. nope not me. >.>”
Where is Rocketboy1313 saying there’s no point in trying to change her beliefs? Where is it saying that Roz doesn’t believe Joyce will ever change? Who says she’s never going to forgive her? IN THE MOMENT, she’s frustrated and very very angry at Joyce, who has taken eighteen years to realize that lgbt are oppressed by things she’s dogmatically believed. Have you never had a situation where you weren’t ready to forgive someone the very second they were remorseful?
didn’t tell her not to change. The dialogue indicates that she wants Joyce to take responsibility for the beliefs she adhered to and expounded.
Joyce has not owned up to shit. She continues her destructive behavior with Ethan, and her assistance of Becky should be lauded, but expected.
The last line is leading things that way, but she starts by discounting Joyce’s realization. And the context of the whole thing, starting in on her the moment she really starts showing that she’s changing her views?
This whole thing looks like someone who’s taking a dig at someone they don’t like when they’re vulnerable and easy to hit. And that’s just as likely to lead to an emotional rejection of that change as it is to hammer home any “truth” here.
Joyce “continues” her behavior with Ethan? You know her beliefs are changing THIS VERY MOMENT right? How would she have stopped doing the bad thing BEFORE realizing why it was bad exactly?
Joyce doesn’t believe people “deserve” to be made to suffer by other people. You disagree. That’s fair enough, but (weird as it is to say this) I’m with Joyce on this one.
Put her in the stocks!! Make her wear a scarlet F (for fundie)!!
Because that totally wasn’t overkill when the Christians used to do that.
Ethan wants to be in the closet, man. As far as she can tell, she’s doing him a favor. Heck, as far as HE can tell, she’s doing him a favor. Literally the only gay person she knew is supporting a belief given to her by people she loves and trusts.
It’s not a good situation, but it’s not like she’s the only person responsible and frankly reaming her out does nothing but give the a-hole reaming her out a few sparkling moments of holier-than-thou smugness.
Well she is the 2nd least voted for favorite in the polls. Right behind Mary.
I wonder, if we were to all vote again today, if Roz would unseat Mary.
They are barely in the comic. Popularity can be and often is a reflection of being visible to the audience.
Eh, Roz is kinda wrong, here. I mean, this is word-picking a bit, but an epiphany, by definition, is a major change in one’s personal views. But even ignoring that:
Someone moving towards your side is a good. It increases the good in the universe. In this case, it’s an increase in good without any downside at all. This is Roz freaking out because someone has started supporting her.
Now, Roz’s points aren’t incorrect, but the question is why saying them at this point in time is of any use to anyone.
I’m pretty sure Roz’s harsh words will act as a catalyst here: while Joyce is on the right path, hearing this probably forces her to confront all the stuff she yet HASN’T aknoledged is hurtful… such as her wishing to “cure” Ethan.
She’s already on that path.
She’s mincing about and doing the potty dance on the path. She’s not really MOVING down the path yet.
I dunno, stuff like standing up against your fundamentalist Christian parents on behalf of your atheist friend and openly accepting and supporting your recently outed homosexual friend qualify as a few steps in my book.
She’s not really doing much to try and cure him, though. If anything, Joyce clings to Ethan because he’s safe, not because he’s a religious conversion project. Joyce is still working through her trauma, and whacking her upside the head with a bunch of angry rhetoric really isn’t helping her.
If she wasn’t a powder keg of trauma concerning male sexual attention, that point would have a bigger meaning.
While she’s not actively trying to panky away his gay, that’s because she’s not able to get near hankyland without having a panic attack.
Kinda throws a wrench into anything she would have done with Ethan (if she even WOULD have gotten with Ethan) without the trauma steering her into his snuggly gay arms.
Or, if Becky didn’t exist to balance Joyce’s beliefs (and Roz doesn’t know about Becky) it could shatter her confidence in her new worldview and make her retreat into herself to rationalize, which is what most real people do when they’re challenged. Nobody likes being wrong. Being declared wrong for failing to have found the correct answer quickly enough for an arbitrary and cruel judge even less so.
Roz is rightfully pointing out that Joyce is divesting herself of responsibility. Joyce is saying the church shouldn’t, but ignoring the fact that she was part of that church and supported that church right up until it clashed with her life experience. Joyce is re-writing her personal history, failing to admit to her part in past social pressures and bigotry. She is a hypocrite.
Fuck it, let’s go bowling.
Your comment is better with the verbs reversed. “Bowl it, let’s go fucking.” See?
Lesbian fucking, it’s less messy.
OVER THE LINE!!! I’m sorry Roz, you were over the line. That’s a foul.
Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man…
what the fuck roz
The truth is the fuck
Using the truth to make someone else feel horrible despite already having learned the necessary lesson to make oneself feel smug and superior is the fuck.
indeed
^^^
>despite already having learned the necessary lesson
Debatable. She has just decided that she is angry at anything that hurts her friend. No major views have truly been altered here.
Look, you know why people in cities tend to be liberal? It’s not because cities are inherently better. It’s because they are exposed to people who are different than them and come to realize that the commonalities outweigh the differences. Joyce is learning that right now before our eyes. Getting pissed that she’s not doing it fast enough or that she shares some beliefs with whatever Christian pissed in your cereal one to many times doesn’t make you any more right than she is. Is just makes you look like you’re carrying a lot of bitterness, justified or not.
Agreed.
Really? You can’t just give Joyce a little time to adjust? Seriousy, it’s like you want her to change her views overnight. Scientist don’t even do that! Scientists still take time to change their minds, and they do it only after multiple tests of their preconceived notions. Now don’t get me wrong, Scientists do change their minds when they are wrong. But you can’t expect a christian girl trained not to even consider these ideas to change her mind faster than someone who has trained him or her self to evaluate the data and draw conclusions from the data itself, even if it requires a change in mindset.
Seconded. For Joyce, her Bible was valid data and a life philosophy. Her philosophy is changing to “My friends matter more than my beliefs,” whether that’s defending Dorothy or standing up for Becky — but she won’t change overnight.
That even assumes that scientists won’t act like humans. We’re not quite as objective as we’d like to think.
No, but of all societal groups, scientists most require that level of objectiveness, and the ones who would be most often confronted with the data which requires them to change their opinions.
Also, if Scientists take longer while acting like humans, and Joyce is STILL within the expected time-frame for scientists not acting like humans, then I’d say that’s even stronger of a point.
The truth hurts especially if you use it like a baseball bat.
This quote deserves to be on t-shirts around the world.
I want that T-shirt. Someone put it on Cafepress… NOW!
If Willis were to do this, he could either have Sarah wielding her bat, or Roz wielding a bat like Sarah.
And now I’m seeing Roz, holding a bat that’s been carved to look like Sarah, and it is glorious.
But its a bat that only hurts those who know the truth. Those who are in denial feel nothing. So its a weapon that only hurts the very people you don’t want to hurt.
But its less effective than an actual bat. Viz:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/bat/
A la a clue-by-four? 😉
+1 for pun ^_^
Pleas good Plasma, make this a t-shirt!!!
Unfortunately I’m not in the printed T-shirt business.
All it takes is a little bit of money and your own design. I know a student who had T-shirts made for everyone in our O-chem class willing to pay for one. Wasn’t too expensive, actually.
…Or no money if it’s someone else asking you to do it. In fact, it’s an easy way to earn money if the design is popular (and if creating the design is easy, I guess), now that everyone can use RedBubble or CafePress or whatever. Hell, Spencer’s has a one-off slogan shirt printer app you can use right on their site if you want something quick and dirty.
GEEZ
LOUISE
This might have had more impact if we had seen how Joyce acted in the past 4 weeks. Like was she just passive? Or did she try and ‘splain the church’s motivations?
We pretty much *have* seen how she’s been acting. Not in the class, no, but can you really picture Joyce *not* acting like, well, Joyce?
last I checked the actions of someone in reality and the way they expressed those opinions in a classroom were not necessarily the same.
If you want to see how Joyce acted, you could try reading the archives…
I meant specifically this classroom, shouldda been more clear.
Roz, having liberal opinions doesn’t give you the right to be a bongo.
She’s like the liberal counterpart of Mary.
Oh my god, that’s exactly what she is.
Mary x Roz would be like matter + antimatter = THE UNIVERSE A SPLODE
Which is why they’re roommates.
I sense a slipshine hatefuck a brewin.
This is very true, I think; both Roz and Mary are absolutely sure that they know everything, that their opinions are perfect and unassailably correct, that they’ve earned that high horse they climbed up on. They are equally wrong about those things.
Roz’s opinions are better opinions, but they don’t make her less full of knee-jerk hate and spite.
That sure is some comfy self-righteousness, eh Roz? Keep rubbing that salt. Maybe add some lemon juice.
Maybe Roz is one of those hardcore SJW types people keep mentioning in various places on the net.
She is the one of the very few who are actually not likable people.
unironic use of sjw has cropped up
mother of god
I know a lot of SJ people on tumblr. That is one of the reasons I am there so much now. Hell, my tumblr has a pretty fair bit of SJ on it (lots of cats and computers and anime too, but that’s beside the point).
SJ and SJW’s are somewhat different things. For starters, one has a W. That’s too many W’s.
I could totally see her as running a social justice tumblr.
…Are you saying that social justice is a *bad* thing?
Well, I’ve seen some using it entirely as a way to win arguments, feel righteous about themselves, and pour out all the hatred and negativity inside them onto acceptable targets. Which, IMO, is both bad and very very human.
Breaking out of the cycle of hating and “othering” entirely is, still IMO, a lot harder. Most people aren’t really interested.
Tumblr Social Justice was screaming about “Tall Privilege” so YES tumblr brand social justice is /terrible/
…yeah, it sounds more like you saw a joke post and thought it was serious.
Huh. I don’t know anything about tumblr. I’m familiar with fighting for actual social justice in the real world. Looks like social justice means something really really different on the Internets, huh.
It really is. Because actually doing something about it is hard, but being smug about it on the internet is both easy and satisfying.
depends on what part of tumblr you are on. Virtually all the people I know there are pro-SJ, some are more vocal than others, of course. But all are good people. Yeah there are some parts that overreact, and act badly, but it is hardly universal.
Oh, sorries. Ignore my rant below. Obviously I was speaking of internet speak “social justice”, rather than that which encompasses irl events, political lobbying, etc
Yeah, and a bunch of over-eager actvists on the internet are a LOT more harmful than US senators that can talk about “legitimate rape”
I have no idea where you got that from what I said.
Stepping on a tack isn’t nullified by the fact that somebody else broke their foot. And if you stepped on the tack, guess which is in your mind?
Bad things that are worse don’t cancel out lesser bad things. It just means there a greater net total of bad things.
Social Justice Warriors, or SJW’s, is generally used to refer to the sorts of people who spend more time shaming and attacking easy targets then actually doing something meaningful to contribute to actual change. Like, reblogging something somebody disagreed with and telling all your friends to spam their blog telling them to kill themselves. On the extreme end, this has resulted in folks who doxx somebody for having a blog they disagree with then inundate said doxx’d person with actual death threats.
Like many terms on the internet, it gets overused to the point where it’s applied where it is entirely invalid, but that’s where the term came from and how it differentiates between people with an actual interest in social justice.
well actually I hate to be that guy but there are certain advantages to being a tall dude. you are more likely to be a CEO, more likely to get a date, etc. etc. I mean I’m a 5′ 4″ girl so I’m not to sure on the details, but my boyfriend is 6′ 5″ and he’s mentioned multiple times how much he gets treated differently (positively) due to being tall.
The social justice movement has a lot of great ideas, but too often does its modus operandi look like Roz’s here. I realise that not everybody who’s into SJ is like this, but there are enough that the whole movement’s been painted with that brush. And that’s unfair, but I’m not sure that people acting like Roz are coincidental. Even the term itself: it’s “social justice” as in criminal “justice”. And justice demands people be punished for their wrongdoings, even if it helps the cause not at all on a practical level. IMO, the whole thing should be about educating, providing opportunities and support – raising everybody up, rather than trying to tear down the people at the top of the social pyramid. And I’ve seen too many people chewed out for their ignorance, too many people brutally harassed, too many people have their opinions totally dismissed for me to believe that the social justice movement isn’t about bringing people down.
guess which is (a LOT) easier, though?
Actually… no. “Justice” does not demand punishment for wrongdoings, it demands redress for wrongdoings–it demands making things right. Lifting every one up is a lovely sentiment, but it requires resources, effort, patience and time. And it requires these things from the people who have the most to spare–those ‘on the top of the pyramid’. There’s far too many folks who take the attitude that once you make active discrimination illegal, we should instantly be in a post-racist, post-sexist, etc. society. It doesn’t work like that, though. The acknowledgement of wrongdoing–that’s the first, tiny, baby step towards actually solving the problem.
Social justice (which has a couple of completely unrelated definitions, but never mind) is a good things.
Some of the people who advocate for social justice are assholes, just as with everything else. Well-intentioned fanatics and purists (“extremism in the pursuit of virtue is no vice”), or people who enjoy feeling superior to other people, or other types.
Whether SJ issues are more attractive of such assholes than knitting, say, I don’t know; I hear knitting sites can have some pretty hot flamewars.
OK. So what do we know about Roz? She actively participates in planned parenthood and distributes free condoms to her peers, (in a dignified costume no less). When she learned that the girl who slut-shamed her had had a hard time at her party, she immediately came to her and offered the smartest kind of help possible: contacts for counselling. Without asking any questions. She is an angry teen so she snapped at Joyce’s small step forward, that’s uncool. IMO, she’s a useful activist that puts her effort and time where her mouth is, and here she lost her temper.
And I’d like to add that people who take this as an occasion to laugh at “SJW” really don’t seem to have their priorities straight: really, you think people who are over-eager to denounce a crooked system are the ones your mockery should be targeting? THIS is what is worthy of your scorn? Not, like, the rich old white dudes running your country, trying to ban abortion, and fighting to protect laws that make it LEGAL to murder a trans woman?
Wait WHAT? That last thing is actually a THING? HOW? PLEASE tell me it’s just a loophole!
… First I find out the Daily Show is ending, now THIS?!?! GAD! PEOPLE, DO WE HAVE NO SENSE!!!!!
All hail is starting to come back to the surface. All brace your shores.
THE DAILY SHOW IS ENDING!?
I KNOW!!! It’s like “Where am I going to get my news now?” I sure as frell can’t turn to CNN or FOX because neither of them have journalistic standards. My options become British Broadcasting and PBS. Worst part is – when I feel morally ill from a news event, no one is going to help make me feel better right after and/or during the delivery. 🙁
I’m going to need some sort of evidence to even remotely believe this… as far as I know murder is murder regardless of the sexual orientation, gender, etc… of the person murdered…
It’s the trans panic defense. It basically goes “I was so freaked out when i found out she was trans that i killed her.” It’s a legal defense in many states and because of it many people get away with killing trans people.
Is that last thing referring to the “gay/trans panic defense”? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense
California explicitly banned that as a legit defense this fall: http://www.advocate.com/crime/2014/09/29/california-becomes-first-state-ban-gay-trans-panic-defenses
Yeah… the fact that this kind of defense even came to exist and be accepted by judges is horrifying
I also had never heard of this. I agree… that is horrifying…
…that’s horrifying. I had no idea.
When did Joyce slut-shame Roz? Can you point me to this strip?
I’d say I don’t like Roz but she hasn’t really had the screen time for me to care….still she could probably shut up a little.
Technically right? Yeah. Quick way to burn bridges and inoculate someone against listening to you? Hell yeah.
Rude, but correct. I like to see Joyce changing some of her terrible attitudes, even if Roz turns it into a sort-of verbal beatdown
Roz won’t teach anything to Joyce. She waited until after Joyce had got the message to even mention anything on the subject. This is just Roz, again, pulling her arrogant ‘I know everything I need to about this class already’ crap. Only this time instead of arguing with the teacher she’s harassing another student.
Another student that she led to an event that resulted in an emotionally scarring experience and was completely ignorant of what transpired until the next day despite being there and writing it off as some buzz kill moment of the party prior to finding out the involved parties. And seeming to have forgotten that now.
Yep. Roz invited Joyce to that party so that she could “learn something,” and now she’s complaining about Dorothy staying silent and letting ignorance continue. Maybe your teaching methods aren’t the best, Roz. Let Leslie take care of it.
Actually, Roz invited Dorothy and Dorothy “invited” Joyce (really, Joyce invited herself and Dorothy went along with it). The first time Roz heard of it was when Dorothy explained why drunk Billie was hanging on her.
Why has anyone forgotten that Roz’s FIRST reaction when she learned that Joyce had been through “something” was to offer counseling contacts without further asking any questions? And this was AFTER Joyce had slut-shamed her because her “flower” had no petals left… When Roz first talked about “a fight” she had no idea what had happened, or how Joyce was concerned. Sure she’s harsh, but she’s not as mean as you paint her.
Neither is Joyce. As for shaming someone over their chosen lifestyle, Roz was perfectly happy to do that right back at Joyce in this comic. She has no moral high ground here. At best she can say she is as bad as Joyce on the opposite end of the spectrum. Personally, and perhaps due to the fact that we’ve seen evidence that Joyce at least is evolving out of what Roz is complaining about her being…I think Joyce is much better than Roz. As a character and as a person.
So basically, Joyce improving is going to be met with more critique of how she used to be and no encouragement for the person she could be in the future? No. Just no. That would be the most effective way of stopping progress before it’s even started.
…and now I’m lost…
I’m not. I’ve had the day Leslie’s having. Being a teacher in that situation (or similar) sucks.
Unless that isn’t what you meant, in which case nevermind.
That helps a little bit at least.
Yeah, I’ve been a student in this class. It is just as awkward as it seems.
Lost? Have you tried Hare Krishna?
MUPPETS MOVIE FTW
Some painful self-righteousness from someone who honestly has a lot of growing to do themselves.
And to how many people in need has Roz offered shelter?
Well, I’m pretty sure she lets a ton on people in her room on a daily basis.
Heh. I said “need,” not “want.”
But Mary lives there, so I wouldn’t call that ‘shelter’.
I’m betting it’s zero. I also ‘enjoy’ how she assumed that Joyce has personally denied LGBT people respect and shelter. Considering that both times an LGBT person has come to Joyce requesting help, she’s unstintingly and unhesitatingly given it the best she could, I’d actually say that ‘the church’ was never her.
Not that Roz cares about facts or context, when there’s a way to pat herself on the back for being so very openminded.
I could be remembering wrong, but I’m also pretty sure the only time those two have argued before, it had nothing to do with gender issues but rather about pre-marital sex. All of Joyce’s dealings with Bi and Lesbian type stuff have been happening when Roz hasn’t been around.
Had this been the topic they’d had the huge fight about, it might make some sense. But this feels more like Roz is using Joyce being devout and a little fundie in order to assume that she has all of the worst traits fundamentalists tend to have.
That is exactly what she’s doing, I think. So are some of the folks on this list.
Is it possible that Roz might have heard the loud argument with Amber in the busy cafeteria about Joyce trying to ‘cure’ Ethan? Because that wouldn’t scream respectful or helpful.
Lemme ask you this:
Given how Becky’s parents reacted, how often do you think that a teenager or young adult was just ‘disappeared’ from their church, and their peers were simply encouraged to never even try to contact them again? I’m willing to bet it’s more than once every ten years, which means it’s very likely that at least one other ‘friend’ of Joyce’s IS living on the street, and Joyce never questioned it.
you don’t have to specifically offer shelter to criticize a group for denying it to others, not to mention she might not have the means to do that (especially not now, living in a college dorm). roz has clearly shown herself to be dedicated to social activism and has proven it in other ways.
Roz works for planned parenthood, distributes condoms to her peers. Discreetly offered the girl who openly shamed her for sleeping around some helpful counselling contacts when she realised she might need them.
Major harshness, Roz.
And to Dorothy as well? Cripes.
Roz: I fucking feel you.
As wonderful as it is that Joyce is growing as a person, it’s not some astounding development for everyone else. Joyce’s battle with her prejudices are hers alone, and is ultimately meaningless in the face of the horror that countless youths have faced for years.
Roz is being an asshole, but she’s right, in a way.
No, she would have been right a few days ago, this is her being a bongo for the sake of being a bongo.
Of course not. But the teacher’s point was that Roz should have left Joyce alone, rather than harassing her in the middle of class.
As wonderful as it is that this illiterate woman has learned to read, it’s not some astounding development for anyone else. Her battle with her ignorance is hers alone, and is ultimately meaningless in the fact of the illiteracy that countless humans have faced for years.
A success is a success IMO, and never meaningless. When someone rises above what life has tried to give them it’s a good thing whether or not what they’ve done is commonplace.
(I should note, not a personal attack. A parallel. It just occurred to me that that is not clear. All apologies.)
It’s not meaningless to Joyce. It’s vitally important to her, and how she will view the world and the people around her. But it’s unimportant to the rest of the class, let alone Roz, who’s had to hear from her how enjoying sex has defiled her soul, and has actively held these views for years now. Why should Roz be happy that, finally, Joyce has seen the light? Why should Joyce even have to learn in the first place?
Because Joyce had parents.
Heck, the idea that the epiphany might be a common one is even more valuable here. After all, this may be a basic, simple observation that a lot of people for a variety of reasons have already gotten.
But this is Gender Studies 101. This is, in fact, the proper place to go over the basic facts. This is the place to have the common epiphanies if you have not already had them. Hell, I would not be surprised to find out that Leslie gets a lot of enjoyment out of teaching this class because this is the best place for her to get people to understand what it’s like and to change things for the better.
hmhmh… an illiterate woman is not (even unwillingly) part of a powerful machine that discriminates, humiliates and alienates minorities, directly and indirectly driving them to severe depression, homelessness and even suicide. However pure at heart, this is what Joyce has been doing for years: being an unknowing part of a vicious and powerful ideological machine. Sure she probably scarcely said anything mean, but we did see her tell Ethan and Mike that homosexuality is a sin, which is a truly harmful stance
Thing is, the only person talking about Joyce being a hero is Roz. No one was asking her to shower praise on Joyce. Everyone would probably have ignored Joyce’s outburst just as they ignore Joe, but *Roz* chose to make a big thing out of it.
true
I don’t know about ignoring. I assume the class has long since learned to ignore anything coming out of Joe, but Joyce attacking the church would certainly draw attention.
Roz vs. Joe in “The biggest asshat” contest! This Sunday, only on the Dumbing of Age Network for 9.99!
Will Mike step up to the plate to defend his title?
He’s already full from the Satan thing.
Joe just wants to get laid without dealing with deep emotional feelings. Roz acti8vely looks down and insults anyone who doesn’t agree with her, isn’t on her level or thinks they know better than her.
i’d like to point out that while Roz was totally in the wrong, she DID point out something Joyce didn’t realize. Joyce was the church, and while she realized the church was wrong, if Roz didn’t speak up she would’ve stayed as self-righteous as before.
Yes: her harsh words will probably act as a catalyst to Joyce’s growth, not an obstacle
Not sure whether to reply with something serious, or just say I LOVE IT MAGGLE!
Pfft, minor leagues. The real contenders are Ryan, Blaine, and someone who is allegedly a parent of Becky.
I’m going to be honest, I think I actually agree with Roz, here. I mean, it’s nice that she had that epiphany and all, but it’s not like anyone should be praising Joyce for deciding to treat a subset of people with respect, finally.
She has a point, sure, but Christ, there are ways of phrasing it that don’t make you a monumental asshole. For example, keeping it to yourself.
I don’t think Joyce ever actively disrespected people, the way Mary does.
Joyce openly slut-shamed Roz befcause of her damaged “flower”, and was perfectly happy telling Mike that homosexuality is a (hateful) sin. Now THAT’s disrespect, even if she did not know it
Good point. Perhaps I need to re-read the whole comic, I tend to forget stuff.
But no one needs to praise Joyce. They need to not kick her while she’s waking up.
Exactly. Roz isn’t making some great moral point, she’s making Joyce feel bad AFTER Joyce has already learned the lesson.
Yeah, but Joyce never asked to be praised for her epiphany. Where is Roz getting the idea that Joyce wants to be treated like a hero?
Because Joyce said something that Roz would feel heroic saying as an iconoclast. Roz frames Joyce’s behaviors in terms of her own actions and decides that what Joyce said was heroic but that she is not in fact a hero. In a way Roz is defending her brand.
Thank you! This was confusing me immensely. That does explain Roz’s behavior. Her motivations are different.
This is a really good point
Well called.
well put
Joyce didnt ask for praise and no one asked for her to be praised. It’s a classroom. She was learning and reacting to new information like a normal student.
A classroom is also not the place for Roz to mock two of her fellow students and cause a scene with personal attacks. I’ve gone to school with people who annoyed me and managed to keep it out of the classroom quite fine.
That’s true, Roz is not making this classroom a safe learning place, even if her reaction is perfectly justified. Leslie to the rescue!! (I want to see more Leslie. she makes everything feel safer in this comic)
This. Roz is right, Leslie is doing what is right. Two separate things.
Also, about ninety percent of the defense of Joyce I’ve been seeing in this thread really could be said about Roz’s outburst, as well. She’s just as much a product of her own homelife as Joyce is, and we’ve seen enough to have some idea of what’s driving her.
That certainly isn’t something to praise Joyce for.
What Joyce deserves respect and praise for is reevaluating her beliefs after she gained new insight and knowledge about the consequences of the beliefs she held.
As a college professor myself, I have to agree with this. In my view, college is where you learn who you are. Roz (and to a more quiet extent Joe) will have wasted their four years if they walk out as the exact same person they walked in as.
Except that she continues to try to avoid doing that. Instead, she spends up all night looking for a suitable re-interpretation of the Bible that will carve out a Becky Exemption while still making it totes okay to continue attempting to ‘convert’ Ethan.
Except her exception does clearly apply to Ethan, since she decided homosexuality wasn’t really a sin. We really haven’t seen how that is going to play out yet.
This has already been a process for Joyce. Her attitudes have already changed based on her interactions with Ethan. I doubt this is the end of the changes.
But that’s still it–it’s a pattern with Joyce’s judgements.
“I like this person. This person does something I’ve been taught (and have been telling others) is wrong. Since I like this person, my teachings must be wrong up to the limit necessary to make it okay for me to continue to associate with them.”
So Ethan got a Friendship Exemption. Dorothy got one, and now Becky’s gotten one.
When she stops issuing exemptions, and starts questioning the need for them, THEN I’ll be impressed with Joyce’s growth. Until then, she’s a good person causing a lot of unintentional pain.
Most people don’t reach a sudden epiphany in an entirely different direction after a lifetime of thinking otherwise. Cognitive dissonance does not lead to change so simply, and sometimes not at all.
I agree with her as well. Hell, I’ve *been* her in situations similar to this.
im sorry my eyes could not get past panel 2
Sooooo, how long ’til the class bursts into chaos?
Roz has a point, I’ll admit. And remember what platform her sister’s been elected on – she’s probably gone through some crap up to this point. Phrasing, though? Honey, you’re just bringing Joyce ever closer to her inevitable total breakdown.
Er, not phrasing. Timing. Man I am tired.
By this point, I think it has burst into chaos.
And, I would guess, have been watching a lot of Archer?
Actually, no, never. Why do you ask? (Genuinely curious, I’ve heard a lot of good things about that show.)
There’s a lot of running gags in the show. One is Archer shouting ‘Phrasing’ after almost any double-entendre–in amusement in most cases, in anger when it is about his mom, whose ongoing sexual exploits are a never-ending source of discomfort (ranging all the way up to disgust at times).
Aaah, I see. Thanks.
Actually, I’m pretty sure phrasing and timing have a part in this.
Good point. Roz is saying this in a really assholish way (which, you know, given her roommate’s Mary and she knows Joyce and Mary are at least church acquaintances, I can see where she might suspect Joyce is an asshole too), riiiiight as Joyce is about to crack.
Not good class behavior either way. But since Roz has definitely been dealing with Mary and probably Robin, and since I suspect she may be bisexual or biromantic (or at least hasn’t ruled out the possibility she might be yet), I can see why she’s just about done with religion in general. Dick move on her part, but she doesn’t know Joyce very well and there’s only so much shaming you can take before you lash out. She shouldn’t be generalizing, but I can potentially see why.
*plays The Eurythmics’ “Missionary Man” on the Muzak*
When will people learn that acting like this only serves to A. reinforce ‘angry activist’ stereotypes, and B. drive away potential allies?
In my experience, such people do not value or respect allies at all, except as a screen of “plausible deniability” which allows those who are part of the group, but not yet ready to come out about it, to avoid being identified. “Allies”, they declare, do not contribute anything else to the cause and should not be otherwise acknowledged or included.
That’s a little rough. They do appreciate allies but it’s hard when members of the community have their experiences discounted in favor of allies’ stories.
Wow, I’m surprised by these first few comments. I thought for sure it would be one big Roz cheering squad. I’m guessing it’s not the message, but rather the delivery that has people disliking her?
(I happen to be against message and delivery, but I doubt I’ll be going down that road in this comment section.) 😉
Roz talks the talk, but Joyce walks the walk.
We have no evidence of Roz not walking the walk. I’d say Roz is walking the walk plenty tbh.
Considering how proactive she is with her views on sexual education, it makes sense to think she’s probably similarly proactive with her other views.
Though, I hope she doesn’t chew people out like this when they successfully learn something about birth control. That’d be counterproductive
Well, except when Roz realizes that a scared and vulnerable peer has had an undefined bad experience at a party, and proceeds to give that peer the best advice she’s received from anyone, including all of her well-meaning friends, despite the fact that said peer slut-shamed Roz promptly after meeting her.
It is likely the combination of the facts that:
a) She is being an asshole. She is harassing Joyce for changing her views – she didn’t ask to be praised, she didn’t want to be seen as a hero. ROZ wants to be seen as a hero for preaching equality so she thinks Joyce does too now and she JUMPS on the opportunity to tear Joyce down for having different views before so that people won’t view her as favourably as someone who was always on the equality train.
b) She’s acting as if it is Dorothy’s job to forcibly change Joyce’s views to be the same as her own, to be ‘better’ than her current ones, which would not really be any different from when Joyce walked in and told off Joe for his premarital hanky-panky – it would be forcing your views on someone else still, but apparently that’s okay if it is your side forcing the views on others? Um, no, Roz is a hypocrite.
c) Worst of all, she is condemning Joyce for actions that she was never a part of personally as if she went out of her way regularly to throw LGBTA people out on the streets while Joyce is actually more of a ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ kind of person.
I agree with the UNDERLYING message that you aren’t a magical new person for a small epiphany, but that isn’t something you say to someone because it makes you an asshole that is bringing them down when they were actually growing and literally every other part of her message is completely wrong – it’s not wrong to change your mind because your situation has changed multiple times, it is wrong to force your views on someone else regardless of what they are about with few exceptions (children need you to override them with a ‘no, that’s wrong’ sometimes for instance, though you should also tell them why you think so instead of just shutting them down obviously), and no, you should not condemn individuals for the acts of other individuals as if they were actually aware of what those other individuals were doing before.
Yes. This. This exactly. Thank you.
We are an… interesting lot here.
Mike being an asshole? “Hilarious!”
Roz being an asshole? “Boo!”
Good point.
Trying painfully sexist and shitty. Those adjectives are much more accurate.
Hahahahahahaaaaaaa.
ROZ! ROZ! ROZ! ROZ! WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Seriously though, this is EXACTLY what Joyce needs right now. No pandering, no bullshit, just a straight-up confirmation that she isn’t nearly as nice or compassionate as she likes to think she is. This might even lead to the fabled Joyce breakdown that so many of us have been waiting for. One can only hope! 😀
Uh, no? This is Roz being a spiteful and vindictive asshole towards someone who has clearly just experienced a paradigm shift on her entire worldview.
What Joyce needs is support and calm, not someone directly accusing her of oppression through ignorance in the most hurtful way possible, regardless of how much of a point they have.
maybe she could use a bit of both
Joyce has had this coming for a LONG time now. I’m sick and tired of commenters here praising her *~compassion~* and *~selflessness~* when she’s been a judgmental, hypocritical asshole since day one. This is something she NEEDS to hear, no matter what form she hears it in. It’s plain and simple.
Joyce is naive and sheltered.
That bongo who’s going to rat on Ruth and Billie – THAT’S the judgmental, hypocritical asshole of this story.
As someone who once was a sheltered, naive Christian, I know what I’m talking about. I happen to be an expert on this subject.
But people here are so rarely willing to call Joyce on her bullshit. I keep hearing “oh no, you don’t understand, she’s GOING to become a good character thereby we can excuse everything she does now!” in a way that no one seems to extend to oh, let’s say, Danny.
Joyce IS a good person.
A bad person wouldn’t have allowed herself to be open to these possibilities. A bad person doesn’t allow the idea that they’re not the hero of their own story to enter their mind – Joyce is slowly getting that beaten into her head. She’s a good person, she’s simply been given a bad instruction book at such an early age that she has had, until this comic began, no other rubric by which to compare it.
Having been through what she’s going through, I’m inclined to cut her some slack.
What makes Joyce a good character is that she tries to do what she feels is right. Her intent matters. What also matters is that several times she’s sided with being kind, loyal, and loving over some of the beliefs she’s grown up with.
Is Joyce a deeply flawed character? Yes. Does she out of ignorance say terrible things? Yes. Is her world view not normal? Yes.
And I do think people are overly harsh on Danny.
So you don’t think Mary believes she’s doing the right thing? There’s a reason “Intent isn’t magic” has become a mantra on the left–it’s because intent is used to excuse a great deal of really, really horrible shit.
Well my arguments are specific to Joyce, because she does appear to honestly love and care about others around her. These are generally characteristics that our society considers “good”.
There has to be some agreement on what good is.
So if I’m reading you right, people who have opposing views to yours (or those you disagree with) are bad people. That’s not a very productive stance to take.
It is, however, an extremely common one.
If those views are “homosexuality is unacceptable” I can get behind calling them bad people.
When those views support and perpetuate the horrible oppression of entire segments of humanity then yeah they are bad people. Not because they disagree with me but because they disagree with basic morality.
Yeah! Make the brainwashed girl SUFFER!
You’re a real champion of justice.
Joyce loses sympathy from me when she encourages physical violence upon her date when he hadn’t even done anything wrong, much less the action that she was grossly overreacting to and helps a gay guy to get back in the closet and date him, thereby encouraging a relationship that solves nothing, makes no one happy, and just hurts all parties involved. There comes a point where you have to hold someone responsible for their actions.
c)
Man, it’s almost like this is an ongoing story where characters grow and develop over time!
And Joyce started out in a place that makes her very unlikable to me. *shrug*
Given your previous mention of him, I assume you’re a fan of Danny, right?
Because early on, that guy was a mopey, moralizing, vaguely misogynistic whiner who tried to get his girlfriend to give up her dreams, and then tried to ruin her new relationship to prove a point to himself.
Walky has been a prick sometimes, Dorothy had a tendency to be stuck up, Sal was dismissive to everybody who spoke to her, Billie was a total asshole whenever she felt like it. These are people, let alone college freshmen, and they are growing and learning about the world around them.
Joyce has grown up her whole life with the knowledge ingrained in her that gay people were awful and going to hell, and having met literally two of them, made a 180 on that and decided otherwise. I won’t ask you to like her, and it is deeply unfair to expect anybody to condone or forgive her actions, but they are what they are, and Joyce has shown a strong desire to change the viewpoints that clash with her desire to be a good person doing the right thing.
SPencer: The difference is that whereas most folks are willing to grumble about Danny, complain about Joe and rip into Sarah when they’re being complete jackasses (hell, “to Dan” has become a verb), Joyce gets a lot of passes for her upbringing–as if her upbringing were unique in shaping her. Roz is no less a product of her homelife–you know, the one where her older sister is now an extremely hypocritical politician who is perfectly willing to espouse horrible views (and, presumably, make equally horrible votes) in order to stay in office.
For someone who wants Joyce to consider other people’s perspectives, backgrounds, and motivations, you’re trying your damnedest not to consider hers.
I can think of at least five characters in this webcomic who AREN’T let off the hook because of their “background”. Do we excuse Danny for what he’s done? Amber? Ruth? Mary? Sal? No we do not. Joyce is exempt because reasons. The hypocrisy infuriates me.
Excuse me but you don’t know me, you don’t know what I think of any of those characters.
Speak to me. Don’t speak past me to other people.
I tend to address the DoA readership as a whole when I rant, and for that I apologize. I’ve just wanted to let this out for awhile.
In answer to your “questions”:
Danny? No, but that’s because Willis hates him too
Amber? Yes, because Blaine is a Jerk
Ruth? Yes, because fan-favorite
Mary? No, because she is a jerk and, again, Willis-hate
Sal? Yes, because another fan-favorite.
Now, two out five isn’t so bad, but still! Only two out of five of your examples don’t get a free pass.
Sure we could side with Roz if she was guilting Joyce on say…. any of that. Roz is giving Joyce crap for not being on the side of angels in a timely fashion.
So Joyce isn’t being held accountable for any of that. Also a classroom is not a court, there is presumably a time and place for getting your accusations on.
Of course Zagreus would be rooting for a Joyce breakdown. xD
I’m personally split here. Does Roz have a point? Yes. Is this even in the range of halfway decent ways to make it? Probably not.
I couldn’t disagree more. I know there’s a certain point at which you can’t blame your upbringing for your ignorance anymore, but I think Joyce deserves a little compassion. How does Roz berating her help anything? Maybe if she had spoken up like this before, but now she’s only tearing Joyce down when she’s finally making progress. You don’t fucking yell at someone for their past attitudes after they revoke them. That doesn’t help anyone.
Roz’s attitude here feels like someone yelling at an infant that just took their first step because they should already be running.
I think what bothers me the most is that Roz really knows nothing about Joyce as a person outside of her fundamentalist upbringing, and yet she still feels qualified to judge her.
This would be good for Joyce if it wasn’t in class, in front of everyone, in such a self righteous and angry way. If Roz had said the same thing outside after class in a flat sarcastic tone it would be sweet sweet medicine for Joyce. But that’s not really something Roz would do, that’s something Mike would do.
Hence Mike being one of the greatest characters in the strip. Wish I had put that in my poll. :/
Thank you, Roz, for demonstrating one of the fundamental rules of human stupidity, namely, the probability of someone being stupid has nothing to do with any other quality that person has.
I’ve known people who would never have been willing to even recognize something like this, no matter what the cause was. The fact that Joyce was not only willing to, but actually went off on her own church, is a pretty good sign, in my opinion.
WHAT A OMEGA 7 bongo!
Man, those freshman philosophizers, I tell ya!
Joyce didn’t ask to be a hero, Roz. She’s new to this stuff! And she’s had a rough weekend – you talk to her, Miss Judgy-Judge! Grrr…
(And Crazy Dina… Combined?)
NO ROZ! YOU DON’T! YOU GIVE HER TIME TO PROCESS THE %#$@%# NEW INFORMATION! *pounds table*
This isn’t cool! Joyce has had nothing but epiphanies today, and this ISN’T a simple one. It requires going against things she’s been taught from birth, and she probably had no idea that there were those within her church that denied lesbians simple rights and protections! It’s different when the church appears to be trying to help these people, but when it becomes clear that it’s hurting people, like it was doing to Becky, that’s when Joyce’s attitude changed. No sooner, no later.
This is an important fact Roz seems to be missing – Joyce probably would have taken in Roz in a heartbeat if something happened that put her in trouble. She’d preach Roz’s head off, but she’d still take Roz in and protect her. But she would never in a million years to think to try to hurt any of these people. Her relationship with Ethan was based on what they thought they wanted and/or needed. Again, nothing more, nothing less. Were that to change, Joyce’s attitude would have as well.
It’s that simple. That neat. That easy.
Right. (Though Joyce’s motivations for dating Ethan are…also a little bit selfish.)
I can’t help but feel that Roz reacted similarly after the party, only to discover the context of Joyce’s actions and have a change of heart. Maybe discovering the truth of what’s up with Joyce will once again bring Roz back around.
Only if it can make Roz feel superior to Joyce. everything I’ve seen of Roz points to the fact that her acts of altruism have less to do with any empathy she has for others and more with her performing the roll she has chosen for herself (righteous morally evolved social crusader)
I never really understood why people hated Roz so much in Shortpacked. I guess they were just anticipating this scene.
In Shortpacked Roz was a manipulative, shallow user on top of her arrogance.
I don’t recall her being particularly self-righteous about it, though.
No, which is why she was so good at getting people to like her (except Leslie… hmmm…).
Remember when she ignored Jacob’s sex addiction and used it to control him and accused his therapist of being a sex hater just trying to shame him?
I liked Roz just fine in Shortpacked, until she started being horrible to Jacob.
Roz was okay until she took advantage of Jacob’s sex addiction and the comic treated it as harmless and naughty.
DoA!Roz was leagues better than her by her first panel.
She treated it that way. The comic did not seem to in my opinion.
Yeah, the comic wasn’t condoning her actions. Roz was saying that “sex addiction” wasn’t a thing and got pretty huffy about it when Jacob insisted it was an issue for him, but the comic certainly never condoned her actions.
I mean, if nothing else, the results of the addiction and the effects on Jacob’s life (becoming a slovenly shut-in, affecting his job and other relationships) were never shown in a positive light.
I’m just grossed out that it even happened in the first place, and that later on I was supposed to view Roz sympathetically rather than as a total scumbag.
The comic didn’t treat it that way, hence why nobody else ever found out about it as it likely would have resulted in her getting kicked out and leaving the comic.
Has anyone considered that Willis may be trying to revisit the issue of sex addiction… through Joe?
Roz, why are you responding to arguments that nobody’s made?
Maybe she has 4th wall powers and is responding to us somehow.
They’d have to be precognitive 4th wall powers, given the buffer.
So, she’s not just a psychic. She’s a future psychic.
So she already knows if Joyce will decide to be eaten by a dragon?
sounds reasonable.
Roz: The Oracle of Bloomington.
Joyce did make quite a display of her righteous indignation. Roz may have interpreted that as a bid for attention. An implicit request for praise.
Might not have taken issue quite the same way if she’d just overheard Joyce talking with some friends about how this information’s changing the way she thinks about the church, though who knows. Hard to say for sure. She and Joyce have kind of been at eachother’s throats since day 1.
Aaaaand here comes the Boom, running for a circle heading straight to Roz.
I’m having a really hard time not sympathizing with Roz here, since I had the exact same reaction a few years ago about a once virulently homophobic preacher who changed his stance after his son came out. If it was literally anyone but his own son, he would’ve gleefully bullied him towards suicide, but since he managed to demonstrate a bare minimum of basic human decency to *his own son*, he’s a great progressive thinker.
http://the-toast.net/2014/09/11/father-daughters-think-treat-women-like-daughters/
not the same but
kinda
I’ve been the Roz in a similar situation as well before and I sympathize with her greatly as well. I see you, Roz. I see you and I get you.
I have a question. Did this person ever apologize? Did they admit that they were wrong, make any gestures of restitution, try to undo the damage they had done or help the people they had hurt? Or are they one of those J-holes who skips straight for asking forgiveness and blithely ignore the whole repentance part?
Yeah, all those socio-political powerhouses who change their opinion only after their shit effects them and their families personally kind of piss me off. I mean, I’m happy your son won’t be disowned and stuff, but maybe you could have had a little compassion for everybody else’s gay sons as opposed to just yours.
But, idk, it’s a matter of degrees. The homophobic preacher has actively spread his ignorant and hurtful beliefs for many years to the detriment of many families and people. Joyce was a minor until recently, and her ignorance probably hasn’t really created too much strife. The most of what she’s done is to Ethan, and I don’t think she messed with his head/self-esteem as much as allowed him to mess with his own head/self-esteem. And, as such, I’m willing to let Joyce receive some praise for this revelation, where I wouldn’t be so forgiving of the preacher.
That perspective helps me understand Roz. Sounds like that preacher has a lot to answer for, and will never really be able to clear his name.
Joyce still has a chance, though – her worst transgression (her treatment of Ethan) can still be turned around.
Roz just might win the Most Polarising DoA Character Award for 2015.
Will she take the gold from mike in the history of …ever?
As polarizing as this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZM5r7NaaQE
(Feeling kind of random tonight)
Roz is being a jerk. People learn at their own pace. 4 weeks against a lifetime pf brainwashing is amazing progress
I wonder if Roz has a back story. Her reaction seems a little overkill.
eh, I mean if you’ve ever had a friend who this happened to it’s pretty natural
and y’know, these people are 18
not even adults really
The situation with her older sister is probably the closest we have in canon right now, though it’s not directly applicable.
Robin is Roz’s backstory. Robin the “Family Values” politician. She’s been steeped in the shit.
I’m sure Roz has had the same exact belief system her entire life, and was the same person at 8 as she is at 18.
She’s got a right to be mad, sure, but that isn’t, and never will be, a license to lash out like a petulant child. Her moral highground looks awfully familiar, too, given she’s basically being Joyce from weeks ago, around the sex tape.
No one is the exact same person at 8 as they are at 18. Unless that was sarcasm, in which case never mind me.
I was being sarcastic, yes, in regards to Roz’s judgment.
Yeah, Roz, that makes total sense. You are guilty of doing terrible things because you associate with people who do terrible things.
So….date rapists. That was you, Roz. Up until now, that was you.
BOOM.
daaaang.
Well, it was her party!!!
…So yeah, Roz gets no sympathy from me.
It was Ron’s party actually.
Really?…man, I could have sworn it was a party she set up!
(Shows what I know for not having re-read that chapter in a LONG time. lol)
Joyce didn’t do that when Roz tried to help. Instead, she accused her of being a witch!
I’m confused what you mean when you say Joyce “didn’t do” something. What didn’t she do?
As for the witch comment, that doesn’t read like an accusation to me. That reads like a sincere question born out of general ignorance…ignorance that wasn’t helped by Roz’s sarcastic response. Now does that make it any better? Not by much. But in that same strip Roz comes in referring to Joyce as “Bible Girl” because she had never bothered to learn her name. Neither of them have bothered to learn anything about the other and have instead imprinted whatever stupid sterotypes they’ve learned from their politics onto the other. Which I suppose was my point all along- Roz in her own way has been acting like Joyce’s opposite, happy with her own world views and stupidly hostile towards everything outside of them. She demonstrates some amount of compassion towards people she doesn’t understand ala that card she gives to Joyce…just like Joyce does when sticking up for her atheist friend and so forth. But her outburst here doesn’t make her right. In fact, I’d say it makes her worse than Joyce, because of the two so far its Joyce who has demonstrated a willingness to change.
You glanced over one of the key distinctions, though.
Roz tried to help someone who has never been anything but insulting to her. Joyce helps people she already likes.
So let me see if I understand this correctly.
You are saying that when confronted with evidence that something terrible has or is happening to a person that Joyce Brown will refuse to give them any help she can provide due to personal dislike of that person?
Sorry, Mr. Freemage. That doesn’t sound anything like the character *I* have been reading about all this time. I’m willing to hear what has led you to this conclusion, but its gonna be a hard sell. The fact that we have yet to see her help someone that she doesn’t like is not any kind of proof that she would NOT do such a thing. Moreover, I submit that “Joyce helping only people she likes” only appears reasonable because Joyce tends to like most of the people she comes into contact with…perhaps to a fault.
She didn’t accuse Roz of being pro-rape somehow.
Took me a moment to process that. Well played.
It was Ron’s party, Ryan doesn’t seem to have been an invited guest, and there’s no indication that Roz has ever even met him.
Nope, sorry. Ignorance is no excuse in Roz’s world. Proximity and association alone are enough to condemn you for the crimes of others.
Y’know what? Fuck Roz. And not in the way she likes. Fuck her with a rusty reamer.
THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU.
I’m firmly with Roz on this, but really I’m looking forward to this playing out. Better to lay it on thick, get the crying and the apologies out of the way, and let bygones, instead of extended animosity and constant torture.
I feel like both Roz and Dorothy are missing something here. Roz isn’t willing to let Joyce forget her past. She’s bringing it up when clearly Joyce isn’t that person anymore. But Dorothy, in her own way, is too willing to help Joyce here. It’s good that she’s supportive of this change in Joyce, but as Roz is kinda saying.
“Until today, that was you.”
Until Joyce has made full amends, or at least begins to do so, she’s still in danger of falling back.
She’s still dating Ethan in hopes of turning him straight. I feel like the breakup of that relationsihp seems to be where this scene will lead.
But what has Roz done to earn the right to be the judge? Who has she saved? What actual effort has she put behind her beliefs?
She’s given away some condoms!
She just threw them in Billie’s room. I’m kind of disappointed that we didn’t get to see Billie’s reaction to that.
I strongly suspect she has done more than just that. She isn’t a main character, we don’t know what all she gets up to off-screen
But… Joyce has never been that person. Aside from her date with Joe, when has she ever tried to be anything but helpful to someone? Even her relationship with Ethan isn’t just her trying to “fix” him, there was a lot of lead up to it from Ethan’s side as well where he’s grappling with maybe it is better for him to go back into the closet. From an outside perspective it’s pretty obvious that that’s not going to work, but it’s fitting that he’s not operating from an outside perspective on his own behaviour. And frankly, if he decides that he can’t go back into the closet, I’d be utterly shocked if Joyce didn’t do her best to support him anyways. Heck, take a look at how she reacted when Becky needed help. Sure, she did check to see if it was ok with the scriptures, but the first thing she did was say yes. There wasn’t even much thought behind it. Her best friend needed help, so she offered it.
For Roz to accuse her of being the same as these organizations that deny help to those who need it is unfair, and frankly, wrong. She doesn’t actually have a point here because Joyce doesn’t turn away people who need help.
Thank you Idris. I think you covered everything I was thinking.
Except that the problem is highlighted in how Joyce processes these changes. Each and every time, it’s a case of, “This is a person I like, therefore my prior teachings that say that what they do is inherently evil must be wrong. Time for me to excise precisely the amount of my scripture needed for me to make it okay to associate with them again, but not to look at the larger picture at all.”
And thus, she continues to blunder through and say (and do) hurtful things, all while believing it to be for the best.
Yeah, of course Roz isn’t willing to let Joyce forget her past. “Her past” consists of every single event from her birth until like, yesterday afternoon.
And by what standard is Joyce to be judged? Must she perform social activism under Roz’s watchful eye until such time as she has been deemed sufficiently amended?
Roz is kind of a poor choice for that, considering that, all things considered, Joyce has very little reason to like her no matter how much her viewpoint ends up changing.
No arguments that Roz is being a total bongo here, but I gotta agree with her. From her expression, Joyce does too.
That said, Leslie and Dorothy are totally in the right here. I’m not gonna throw a parade for someone that only has a moral epiphany when it’s *their* special someone that’s gay, but I’m not gonna berate them either. And a classroom really isn’t the place to beat someone with your moral high ground. That’s what the hall *after* class is for.
Summary: Roz is a right(eous) bongo, Leslie is having to (rightly) kick someone out of her class again (that’s the second time in four weeks? That’s pretty bad), Dorothy is right, and Joyce is looks pained as fuck.
So I’m gonna say Willis is doing a good job with the drama, as usual. How entertaining would things be if everyone was all wise and mature and shit?
And this is the point that everyone should take from this comic.
A person who’s made a mistake for a good chunk of their life doesn’t deserve special praise when they finally start correcting it, but they also don’t deserve to be trampled by someone riding in on the high horse of self-righteousness.
That might be the moral lesson, but from the comments it doesn’t seem to be well received.
Because they are sexist assholes. If Mike had done this, people will be bursting with enlightenment.
This webcomic needs more Roz-Joyce interactions.
Double plus good if Roz actually manages to treat Joyce like a human being for once.
She has actually, as The_Bionic_Doctor has pointed out several times. As far as we know, though, it was only just the once.
Jesus Christ, Roz
(play on words intended)
Roz has a terrible view on the world thinking that everything about a person is etched in stone. Roz has a point in the matter, but Joyce is refining her viewpoint by exposing herself to the world outside of her belief comfort zone. From what I’m interpreting, Roz is taking Joyce’s rage out of context, possibly thinking that this epiphany is only coming from listening to a sad story involving the lesson, not knowing anything about Becky, and just making herself look like an ass (again).
Well…a big hearty “Fuck You” too, Roz!
Roz is right in that Joyce’s mindset was enabling this behavior, she’s WAY WRONG to directly blame Joyce for putting homeless kids on the street. Unless Joyce actually did that, maybe don’t directly blame her for it.
Also, nobody said Joyce was a hero, they simply encouraged her more accurate view of things. I guess we shouldn’t be pleased when people begin to think about things more reasonably huh? For… some reason.
Jeez, Roz, if anyone actually expected you to treat Joyce like a saint maybe that would’ve been called for…
While I love Joyce and I can’t blame her for being raised how she was raised, I also can’t hate on Roz for this scene because SHE was raised with a duplicitous Republican politician for an elder sibling and probably spent a lot of time aggressively defending her views and getting zero respect for it. (Am I projecting? I may be projecting. And not just ’cause of my avatar.)
While I agree that analysis is plausible and indeed is probably true…if that’s the case, what she’s doing is projecting the anger or whatever pent up family crap she’s gone through with her sister onto Joyce.
Which is part of the point RJ is trying to make. If we give Joyce’s often hurtful behavior a pass because of her upbringing and immaturity, then why doesn’t Roz deserve the same opportunity? I’m not saying Leslie was wrong for kicking her out–time and place do matter. But I do have to wonder about how Joyce would’ve reacted to this lecture prior to Big Gay Becky arriving on the scene. (Best guess: A shit-ton of apologetics about hating the sin and loving the sinner, how it’s for the best of those poor gay kids to be forced back into righteous behavior even if it seems harsh, etc, etc.)
Exactly – Joyce gets a pass because we know her backstory, but Roz has a backstory too. She might be purging her anger inappropriately, but her anger is legitimate and very possibly comes from a place of hurt.
I’ve been thinking about this and am interested that lots of people are furious with Roz for disrespecting Joyce, but not for disrespecting Leslie. Les is the person who should be setting the terms of this conversation, and not just because she’s the professor… I’m really hoping we see a private conversation between Leslie and Roz tomorrow.
Roz – in a commentator thread near you. That “I’m supposed to…” always gets me.
I find it grimly amusing that Roz decides to pick a fight not over Joyce disagreeing with her, but that she was apparently slow to change her position.
I get the feeling Roz’s rage is more to do with a possible lack of respect for her various declarations with an imagining of everyone functionally praising Joyce for her new position.
Especially since nobody said word one about Joyce’s declarations. Not even Dorothy.
Not that they got much of a chance to react. Roz jumped on it rather quick.
Roz fundmentaly changed both the discussion and tone it ways that will derail the other character’s response to Joyce’s deceleration. The discussion now becomes about Roz vs Joyce, rather than the subject matter of Joyce’s bellicose declaration and the reasons for it. Mainly the importance of empathy, understanding, and compassion Which many organized groups (not just religions) general fail to apply even when it ostensibly a cornerstone of their group ethos.
But that discussion won’t happen now. And Roz demonstrated exactly why those things are important.
(It’s been said plenty before, but…) I really want to see how all of this affects Joyce’s relationship with Ethan. Change there seems kind of inevitable at this point.
Roz quite possibly has LGBT+ friends herself; plus, Roz has seen people like Joyce hate both Roz’s behavior and Roz herself (as a woman of color). Remember this? Joyce literally said that Roz has a damaged soul because she’s had too much sex. Also, Roz is sick of Robin trying to force Roz to be a poster girl for archaic, bigoted standards of purity to pander to a voting base that talks just like Joyce.
Roz has spent a lot of time pursuing healthy sex education for herself and her peers and has probably done hours upon hours of research to better herself, be capable of helping the LGBT+ community, and make sure she knows what she’s talking about.
So Joyce, who really is pretty brainwashed in a way that 18-year-old Roz is not equipped to understand, comes in and is totally shocked to learn these facts that Roz can probably rattle off by heart. Roz went out of her way to defy Robin, learn new perspective, and fight for better attitudes towards sex. Joyce blithely wandered around spewing hate because she didn’t know statistics that were readily available for her to find at any moment.
Roz is being a self-centered jerk here and should shut up and think about the question she’s asking in the first panel. But she has very, very good reasons to be angry at Joyce.
Oh, get out of here with your nuanced, insightful empathy on both sides, you!
*thoughtful HMM noises.*
Yep, that was about where I was at, except you said it better and in more detail.
Those are good points and a very salient comic. Roz is plainly out of line here; the teacher isn’t ordering her out without reason. But seeing as how Joyce was fine judging her in the past, I understand why Roz might be so quick to seize on her.
I love this comment with all my heart.
Sure, she has reasons to be upset. But the fact remains, taking out your personal mad on someone, no matter how justified it is, just opens you up to more of the same.
But if Roz came to her views because she has LGBT friends, how does that make her different from Joyce?
That’s not what I said.
JTo clarify the difference between Tom T’s reading and TSB’s point….
Joyce changes her views based around specific people–creating a very real form of hypocrisy. Roz, OTOH, is more likely to be starting from the broad rule (don’t judge the sexuality of others) and then seeing how failure to adhere to that rule is affecting people she cares about.
My only issue with this is the assumption that Roz has done the work as well. Unless we see it we don’t know that for a fact. I feel like a lot of Roz’s positions are thought out just enough to determine the position that is like to affect her sister the most.
Hmmm, yeah. Good point.
We’ve seen Roz actively arguing for sexual freedom, helping distribute birth control, and slipping some orientation education into her conversations with Riley in a way I read as intentional, so I would say Roz has definitely done some research and is actively fighting for her beliefs.
But you’re right that we haven’t seen her talk about gay rights much, and she was pretty arrogant towards Leslie in one scene. So I might be overstating how knowledgeable Roz is. She might be a bad ally to LGBT+ people. Still, what we have seen from her is impressive enough that I’m inclined to empathize with this (still inappropriate) outburst.
I’m feeling pretty annoyed at the backlash against Roz here, so I’m going to elaborate on this. Once again, I totally agree that she’s way out of line, but this is one exchange probably taking less than 20 seconds. Her losing her temper for less than a full minute (and being appropriately criticized and punished by the people around her) is not grounds to dismiss her entire character.
Four weeks ago, Joyce told Roz that her soul was fundamentally damaged and almost destroyed because she’d had too much sex. Dorothy responded to Roz’s “sex tape as political statement” stunt by referring to it as “dumb”, and when she got an interview, pulled no punches in thoroughly questioning Roz’s personal and political choices. Dorothy turns full skepticism and criticism on Roz’s attempts and activism but coddles Joyce no matter what horrible shit she says.
Now, from Roz’s perspective, Joyce is going “Oh my god! The Church hurts gay teenagers? What??? Who knew this? Why didn’t anyone tell me?” And Dorothy, as usual, is holding her hand through this whole assumption.
As for “I’m expected to treat her like a hero”… yep, this absolutely happens. Arguing for feminism or LGBT+ rights makes you angry and humorless. I’m sure Roz has been called every misogynistic slur under the sun, especially after her sex tape. There are many, many people who like or share Facebook posts like “parents of the year heroically don’t set LGBT+ child on fire” but who would never actually recognize and praise activists who have been fighting for that kind of acceptance or who helped shelter kids that did get rejected. Which person is more of a feel-good human interest story: a priest who agrees to officiate gay weddings or a lawyer for a human rights organization fighting their hundredth case? People don’t want to hear about the hard, painful, often fruitless work of struggling for rights, they want to hear some cute story about how ~we all just need to love each other~ and then ~everyone ends up getting along~.
I love Roz and Dorothy and Joyce. I think they’re all self-centered and ignorant because they’re eighteen and leaving home and learning about new perspectives for the first time. I think they all have a long way to go in learning about the civil rights struggles happening in American society and how to help the people around them that are experiencing oppression that they don’t. I think Roz is further along than Joyce in that regard, though she needs to be careful not to tortoise-and-hare it up in that regard (I don’t think she will; Roz is less compassionate than Joyce but she still seems to me like a person who wants to do the right thing). I think ultimately this exchange will be a good thing for Joyce and will cement in her mind that she needs to keep up the introspection and criticism of her fundamentalist doctrine.
Hmmmm. Having spent 10+ comments arguing against Roz in this thread… you have a point. And you have explained it and elaborated it really well. I can see better where Roz is coming from now, and given a better choice of time and place this could have been the beginning of a constructive discussion.
I really don’t like the “ultimately it will be good for character X” argument for many reasons. But for the sake of paralellism I think that this will ultimately be good for Roz. She will remember this as the day she took all her passion, all her fury, all her finely honed argumentation skills and directed them NOT at the embodiment of the restrictive norms that her sister panders to, but at a confused and scared young person who was trying her very best to do the right thing at a high personal cost, and was just taking the first step in a journey that Roz herself began ages ago.
Oh, sorry, I should have been clearer: I don’t see “it will be good for Joyce in the long run” as a defense of Roz. That was meant as an analysis of this moment in Joyce’s character arc, not a reason why I think Roz’s anger is understandable. I do think it’ll be good for Joyce but I think a) that idea hasn’t occurred to Roz right now and b) it wouldn’t be a justification even if that was her reasoning.
I think you’re right about Roz. Willis has been setting Roz up for a bit of a fall (her boasting to Leslie that she doesn’t need the course, for example). I certainly don’t think she needs to be humiliated or anything but she could use a bit of humbleness and a reality check.
Ah, got it. Then I think we are on the same page there.
You are right that Roz is serving a plot function now and has been set up for it for some time (as pointed out in the alt text). Come to think of it, she has been cast in a less and less sympathetic light each time we’ve seen her (last time was when she did less than welcome advances to Jacob). She will have a reality check, just like you said.
In fact, something I really wish for now is that somewhere down the line Roz and Joyce will both have grown enough to reconcile their differences. That would be a very nice evidence of how they change into something better.
Yey! I got the nr 1000 comment. This thread just keep on giving.
You know, you’re right. I’ve been too hard on Roz; she’s out of line here, but I responded too. Um. Energetically. Like this, it’s easier to understand where she’s coming from.
Well, i feel the in most cases negativity can lead to positive outcome in many cases, yes, roz is acting like a bongo and the way she acted is not suited for a classroom or most other places really, but hopefully this will lead to some development on joyce part and help her think a littlefor herself instead of thinking the holy book is all saying and all knowing……
Lotta Roz hate in here. Frankly, I agree with her. I realize Joyce isn’t a bad person and doesn’t deserve this level of vitriol, Roz is right. We shouldn’t treat people like they did something special for achieving a baseline level of respect for people.
Part of growing is having the ugly parts of you thrown in your face. In this case, that’s Joyce’s belief. So far her entire emotional journey has been about what other people have told her, and she seems to focus more on that than the fact that she chose to believe it.
Well, and this comment section is throwing the ugly parts of Roz in her face.
oblig. FAAAAAAAAAAACE
+1!
A “baseline level of respect”?
As much as acceptance and respect for LGBT youth SHOULD be a bare minimum baseline for humanity, if we went by that baseline we’d be excluding over 3/4 of the population of the world. Sadly, it IS something special that Joyce has managed to grow a heart on this issue. Especially considering her upbringing. And I’m not sure how much of a “choice” her opinions are, when her livelihood in her parents’ house essentially entailed taking on these beliefs.
I’m not saying Joyce deserves a pat on the back, a medal, and a parade, but I think we can and should allow Joyce to feel good about doing a good thing and changing her opinion about LGBT people, as opposed to making her feel like shit like Roz seems determined to.
Calculus is an important skill for scientists. The moon is not made of green cheese.
What, you think those are non-sequiturs? No more so than Roz’s outburst about not treating Joyce like a hero. Sure, it’s “right”, but it’s not *relevant*, because Roz is the only one to bring that up. It’s about what’s happening in Roz’s head, not what’s happening in the classroom. (Unless Willis skipped a strip.)
Very important point.
Or maybe Roz equates “someone who knows less than me on this topic is talking about it” with “treating like a hero”
I mean, it’s almost like Joyce is learning issues related to gender studies in a class about gender studies. THE NERVE. STRIKE HER DOWN BEFORE SHE PUTS ON AIRS
One particularly big issue is that Roz did this in class. I’ve attended classes like this before; they almost always come paired with a disclaimer at the beginning of the semester saying what is and is not okay. As Leslie says, they talk about the material, not each other. Roz is teaching Joyce that it is not okay to ask questions or be offended in this course because she will be shot down, which has the potential to discourage her from asking questions and taking part in discussion later.
They’re not there for a confrontation, they’re here to learn. Roz not only hurt Joyce’s feelings, she basically shot down a great lead-up that Leslie had to continue teaching the material, damaged any trust that Joyce had that bringing up concerns and revelations of her own in this class and undercut Leslie’s authority.
I was too hard on Roz in prior updates, but I still believe what she did here was not correct or right.
as much of a bongo shes being she has a point
I suppose if we’d gotten a beat or two more to show anyone, like, actually praising Joyce, I’d be more sympathetic towards Roz. As it is, her comments are frankly baseless and serve only to paint her as being needlessly vitriolic and hurtful.
Well, she is not wrong. I loe Roz, whatever, no regrets.
It’s like nobody in the room understands that there’s a class going on.
Yes, have an epiphany in your own time please and don’t disturb a class.
Remember folks, the classroom is no place to make connections or gain understanding of how the world works.
Near as I can tell it’s a place to surreptitiously text and pay the least amount of attention possible to get a passing grade.
You can do that without disrupting the class, you know. I’ve had an epiphany or two in class myself, but I somehow managed to restrain myself from shouting curses at all that’s wrong in the world right then and there.
To say nothing of Joe with his hacky jokes. Roz right here was flatout told she was derailing the discussion and she just kept on going. I don’t feel like it’s hard to leave this stuff until after class.
This would have been a teeny-tiny bit more effective if Joyce was a horrible person like Roz was insinuating.
Like, if this was Mary, then yeah Roz all the way.
Joyce herself already made that discovery though, so really, what is Roz contributing exactly?
Not much per se i think except maybe transfered her from the slow-train over to the express-train, she still get to the destination, just a little quicker and on a more rougher xD
Well, that’s just the problem. You don’t have to be a horrible person to be enabling bigotry. History is full of very nice people doing horrible things, or just passively supporting those things being done by other people.
A fundie is having an epiphany and growing as a human being. Roz knows what to do in this situation, guilt trip her senseless
Hanky-panky you Roz!
I see her point but this is not right tone or place for that.
Seems to me that Roz is making a good point towards Joyce but an even better one towards Dorothy
It does hurt to hear the truth and Joyce has had ample times to help point out somethings to Joyce but hasn’t
Having said that disrespecting Les like she did is not cool
I believe I understand David and his unwillingness to suffer fools a lot better after this comic.
Thank goodness the subject I teach isn’t very polarizing. I could not handle this in my classroom.
In any case, I know that I would not have grown the way Joyce is now (I didn’t start where she did, but I did have a very narrow worldview not that long ago, and meeting a variety of people was necessary to help me understand the problem with my prejudices and assumptions) had it not been for the compassion and patience of the people who helped reshape me. No one went off on me, they just told me their perspectives. The honesty in it made the arguments convincing enough, and that’s all I needed.
Maybe Joyce needs a complete mental break to change, but I think she’s inherently good-natured and will grow just from gaining more evidence and perspective, and I think that approach will make the transformation not only smoother, but also quicker.
pretty weak defusing effort from dorothy here
maybe be a teensy bit more stern in rebuking roz given what you know about joyce
guess she’s still reeling from walky talky though
Roz’s self-righteousness is quite disgusting. Angry intolerant hateful behavior is despicable, regardless of the reason for that behavior. Acting like this makes her no better than those that she’s railing against.
Roz is full of shit. Joyce may have on occasion spoken out of ignorance but never out of hate to ANYONE no matter how counter to her world view they may be. When her friend came to her she did not turn her away even at great risk to her own situation at school. What she is going through is more of a contextualization than an epiphany. Joyce needs to change very little in herself, she is an open, accepting, and tolerant person. It is only that she needs to realize that there are many is her church community that aren’t, and that is a bitter pill for her to swallow.
It’s always tough to accept it when you find out people you love, and who love you in turn, have horrible characteristics, especially when they’re the people who taught you, who you admired growing up. It’s world-shattering and heartbreaking. Especially at that age, old enough to have been thoroughly convinced, but too young to have truly explored for yourself.
There will obviously be snags, but progress is the key. I understand Roz’s frustration, but I don’t think Joyce, the one who is actually trying to learn and grow now, should be the target of this rant, specifically.
Think about what Roz has seen. The last time we’ve seen interactions between the two of them, Joyce tells Roz her soul would be cut down to its roots, and wonders about her coven.
Joyce is trying to be accepting and tolerant, but that’s not really her upbringing and you can see she’s still learning how. When Roz says Joyce has changed from the last four weeks, she’s not wrong.
Was that before or after Joyce was nearly raped at Roz’s party?
One of each. Since it wasn’t Roz’s party per se, she didn’t invite Joyce, and her full involvement was to try giving her information about what happened before getting asked about covens, I have a tough time considering it relevant to whether Joyce is accepting or not.
I can see Roz’s point of view but I also understand that Joyce is a product of her upbringing. She’s been exposed to a semester of diversity on campus but in reality that’s not going to undo the last eighteen years of what her parents and church community instilled in her. Understanding and tactfulness comes with age and different experiences, which Joyce is learning. To lash out on her especially after knowing her background makes Roz no different then the people who judged her. Which shows that Roz still has a lot of growing to do.
Are we sure it’s not Mike who put Roz in this class ? Because it sure would fit his MO of “hard truths via blows to the guts”
I just wanna play with my bongos! You argue I’ll play with my bongos! Bongo bongo bongo… *drums away*
And I’m gonna read some Bongo Comics.
Even after seeing the Twitter comment about a word replacement, it took me WAY too long to notice everyone saying bongo, like I just assumed it was referencing some meme I hadn’t seen yet.
I saw the tweet too, but I didn’t connect the dots. My thought was “I wish he had said that on Tumbler so I could ask him what word he was replacing with what”
As rotten and over the top as that is, Roz /kinda/ has a point. Joyce is being a bit of a hypocrite for talking down to the church when she was one of those people.
Changing and recontextualizing one’s worldview is not hypocritical in the slightest.
Naah I’m sorry but one epiphany does not a worldview change make. Shes changing and growing and thats good but shes still got the gay boyfriend and she still holds onto views like this: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/research/
No, but spontaneously turning around and acting like it’s not something you were a part of it.
I don’t know why, but the “I was against gays before, but then my FRIEND turned out to be one of them!” thing really bothers me. Like they didn’t realize hating and judging other people was wrong until it personally affected them. I know the end result is that we get a new ally, but damn.
She probably didn’t know all the stuff she learned in the last strip – her reaction isn’t just down to her friend coming out. Maybe she wouldn’t have had the same reaction if it wasn’t for Becky though.
Roz has only ever met intolerance with intolerance. The closest she came to trying to expand Joyce’s worldview was encourage her to seek a therapist after what happened with Ryan. And that took something ,she could only assume, horrible happening.
Good on Leslie for telling her to step outside. The comments Roz was directing at Joyce was unacceptable given the situation, disrespecting the teacher even more so after repeated warnings. You don’t attack someone for a sudden change in worldview or a realization. Even if Joyce does need it thrown in her face. Becky’s doing a good job of that by distancing herself and actively calling her out for inconsistencies.
I think it’s hard to say whether or not anyone is feeling “smug and superior” because we don’t have a live feed into anyone’s head, and we’ll never actually know how someone is feeling, unless they honestly tell us. So, unless Roz says, “You know, I feel like I’m better than her right now…” then we can say, for sure, that’s she’s feeling smug and superior. But she could also just be feeling angry… really angry. And it’s not unjustified. Is she being a jerk? Yes, but Joyce still hasn’t come to the realization of her part in it. She still hears of “her church” doing it, “her peers” doing it… but never yet considered that it was also “her” doing it. She was angry she has an oblique association with homophobia… but hadn’t yet admitted that she also had a direct part in it. That’s a different beast.
I don’t think Roz is saying, “You changed your mind for the wrong reason”… it’s that just learning something doesn’t automatically make you better. You have to put more effort into it.
I’m inclined to be on Roz’s side, here. Truth is not nice, and learning is not painless.
That might be applicable if Roz had asked what Joyce was going to do with this newfound revelation of hers. Piling on her for what’s already done isn’t productive.
Joyce has been a minor dependent on her parents for support, not to mention worldview. I think her culpability is pretty minimal.
And this is why I am so glad not to be in my late teens/early twenties. I’ve seen some really vicious things happen when I was in Bloomington in 94. I was in a sociology class and everyone ganged up on this poor girl from Israel. It was awful. She was sobbing and dropped the class, dropped out of IU and moved back to Israel. I also saw these assholes gang up and berate this older student in my French class and made fun of him for mispronouncing stuff. The dude had a hearing impairment. He had a visual hearing aid. I got shitty with them and said “Uh, people with hearing impairments take longer to learn how to pronounce things. Lay off.” God, I hated that time in my life.
Its not just teens and 20 sometimes, people who are bullies like that never stop. I still get prank calls from a jerk I met in freshman year. He’s in his 40’s now.
Growing old is not optional, but growing up is.
oooooh
😮
Those who are incapable of forgiveness should hope that they never find themselves in need of it.
That’s my world view. Naive? Maybe. But I’d rather be a naive fool at least trying to do some good than the alternative.
I really don’t like it when people get judgmental over other people’s failure to forgive… or do so in quick enough a fashion… particularly when the party to be forgiven has yet to deliver a simple, honest “I’m sorry”.
I’m not going to go out of my way to say that Roz’s actions here are appropriate. But, neither am I exactly going to refuse her the right to make Joyce’s earlier castigation of Roz have any consequences, whatsoever.
Joyce and Roz do have something in common. They prefer to degrade people for being wrong rather than help them learn after they admit they are wrong.
+1
God fucking damn Roz, wait to go full-on SJW on someone for changing their viewpoint.
You say SJW like it’s a bad thing.
The term “SJW” is an insult meant to degrade and dismiss the views of people who believe in social justice, so it is a bad thing.
Pretty sure when most people go “GODAMN SOCIAL JUSTICE” it’s aimed at the jerks on tumblr that verbally tear down a guy for getting a girl home after finding her passed out drunk, and finding him a creep for looking at her phone to find her mom.
yeah, those people, all over, my cousin said he saw that one time, did you know they are also pushing for laws to outlaw straight men going outside? too far imo
Yeah, but that’s a vocal minority, the people who get way too much focus because it’s the picture that people who are against feminism and the like WANT to be painted of those groups. You’re more likely to get “well done guy” from a majority of feminists on Tumblr.
Barring that, Tumblr is the chosen outlet for a lot of people to vent their frustrations on. It’s not surprising to find very extremist opinions there because it’s treated as a safe haven from the judging eyes of irl society. People making assumptions based on those posts are merely taking a view into the mind of someone who’s obviously very pissed off with their daily life, rather than making a coherent judgment of an social justice group.
I know what it is. But what I’m saying is that it’s not a bad thing. You *want* to be a warrior for social justice. There is literally nothing bad about social justice. People using it as an insult are basically saying ‘ewww, youuu… youuu DECENT PERSON!’. That makes no sense.
Ehhh, I wouldn’t use “warrior” to describe myself as a social justice proponent, because warrior carries violent connotations which run very contrary to what I think social activism is supposed to be about. To me, it’s meant to be a non-violent movement. The people who use violence as a means to bring awareness to social inequality are the so-called “warriors” that people who hate social activism point to in order to denounce the whole concept entirely.
That’s just a quibble over a word though. Fighter, then. Or even proponent, even though that seems less like an action word, more like a talk-y word. Champion, maybe?
We agree, basically, is what I’m saying. I’m anti-violence, pro justice, social and legal and any other kind of justice there may be.
Quibbling over debatably harmful words is a core component of what we do, though. <_<
Whatever, I don’t even really hate the word ‘warrior’. You become a warrior if you fight for something you believe in. It’s obviously not meant in a violent context here. Also, this word in our society has transcended the restricted meaning of a person who violently fights to the death, etc., it can totally mean just being a fighter for something and you know that, too.
Besides, sometimes you have to get a little loud, a little aggressive to get the message across. Progress is not made just by people singing Kumbaya. It also takes the people who organize a protest or a demonstration or a rally. Peaceful. Not violent. But agressive and out there. With the intent of being heard and being seen. I don’t hate ‘warrior’ as a descriptor for people like that to be honest with you.
Anyway. Social justice warrior/fighter/champion etc. isn’t an insult, shouldn’t be an insult and the movement of people reclaiming it and being proud of being called SJWs gives me hope, because they should be proud. Justice is always worth fighting for.
/steps off soapbox, sorry for the rant haha
But you don’t want to be a social justice asshole, which is what a bunch of these people really are. “I’m Right and they’re Wrong and that justifies my treating them like shit.” Just like Mary, but with a different Right and Wrong.
I’d rather be a social justice cleric. That way I can presumably turn these Gamergate types and make them flee as if they were undead.
No, it’t something used to describe people who do things like dox people for writing a racially insensitive limerick, or post the personal information of Klan members online to have people harass them at their homes and businesses. Or spam a person’s job until they get fired because they made a comic that ridicules said actions.
I might have more sympathy for Joyce being publicly shamed for her behavior if it weren’t for the whole “premarital hanky panky” thing:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/pmhp/
I kinda think that anyone who is coming down hard on Roz about this but didn’t come down equally hard on Joyce about that kinda has a double-standard. I can understand a reader responding more harshly to this because Roz is more eloquent (and has a better chance of hitting her target), whereas Joyce’s “hanky panky” freak out came across as sillier and more humorous to the reader (which took some of the edge off), but in terms of intention, Joyce really wasn’t any better.
I do agree that Roz shouldn’t be doing this, but Joyce shouldn’t have pulled that unbelievable crap either.
I am glad that Joyce is learning and becoming a better person. I hope that Roz does likewise.
Also relevant moments from that scene: Joyce basically saying Roz is a horrible person because she has sex (with a pretty nasty look on her face, in contrast to her ‘caring about [Joe’s] soul’), and Roz asking if that’s how Joyce makes herself feel superior, which feeds right into this scene (“first Joyce thinks she’s better because she’s pure, and now she’s a hero for being a decent human?”)
I’m pretty certain Willis wants us to make this connection too, since he resurrected the “hanky panky” phrase in yesterday’s comic.
I’m definitely in Dorothy’s camp here, but…
Joyce tries to be a nice person, and she has a good heart, but there have been at least a couple of times where she tosses that out the window because of her faith (and, yes, upbringing; I know she’s a kid that’s in the process of growing). Especially pertinent to this comic, Roz has been the target of at least one of those times.
Should Roz have gone off on her like this (especially after being told to drop it)? No. But I can definitely understand her getting fed up and not willing to have any patience.
go roz! way to call out joyce’s hypocrisy!
The way she’s doing it is not something to applaud. It’s a blatant personal attack, and it’s not productive toward the ultimate end goal of understanding. I think Roz is being a bongo, despite having a valid point.
I don’t.
This very comment board, only last strip, was acting like Joyce was some kind of hero now for having what is indeed the simplest of epiphanies. When Roz calls out the idea that Joyce is suddenly SO GREAT for only now realizing the church’s fuck ups (and only once she had something personal happen to her) she is calling out all of you that were so quick to applaud Joyce. The author wrote that intentionally. Willis even says in the alt text he basically put Roz in this class so she could be there to call out joyce like this.
Sure, Roz is being mean. But you know what? Mike is mean. all the time. in so many worse ways for shits and giggles. and people call him awesome. people love mike no matter how much of an asshole he is and concoct all these ridiculous justifications about how he’s an asshole “for other people’s own good.” They make excuses for him and try to say he regularly fucks people over to somehow help them.
But on the other hand when Roz makes a completely legit point in a mean way?
People like you call her the b-word so many goddamn times that Willis actually had to censor it to bongo. I see the difference. So no, I’m going to continue to applaud Roz, until the amount of reasonable conversation on here outweighs the amount of sexist assholes calling Roz a b-word.
Go Roz! way to call out joyce!
I don’t think we think Joyce is a hero, I think we are excited for her to be reaching that conclusion.
Also, how often does he ever say anything about a person? Seems to be he more often criticizes acts and objects, and sometimes does things that are outright ridiculous, but he never insults anyone directly and almost always gives them an out.
Does anyone else feel like they missed something like wayback that would have kicked this into motion. like Roz catching on to the farce of joyce and ethans relationship. Or is Roz just being a an asshole?
I suppose thinking Roz is a witch might have something to do with it http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/03-the-first-step-towards-recovery/card-2/ or suggesting Rozs soul is defiled: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/petals/ might also play a part
While not LGBT+ related specifically, Roz has probably been the one person Joyce tends to not be very nice about when faced with her ‘un-Christian’ attitudes (not that Roz isn’t more than a bit inflammatory herself).
Roz likes to paint everyone with broad strokes. But Roz learned that Joyce was a Fundy after her sex tape ordeal when Joyce found out about it in gender studies. Everything else is an assumption drawn from what she heard in gender studies class in typical Roz fashion.
Wait a minute… what exactly is the seating plan in this class? In panel 4, Dorothy is look backwards at Roz… and then in the last, Roz is looking backwards at Joyce, and what appears to be Dorothy (or is there another blonde wearing red there?)
Dorothy is not looking backwards, she’s looking sideways. Dorothy and Roz are in the same row and Joyce is one row behind. Unless my perspective is totally warped xD
Roz FUCK YOU.
I’m sorry, but you don’t get to shut people down after they’ve realized that what they believed was wrong, and they are now moving forwards in a good direction. I understand your rage, I get it. But you know what? Yes. Yes you should be applauding this revelation. Because guess what? We don’t live in the future where everyone is wonderful and lovely to LGBT+ people. We live in the present where people are awful to them. And pretending we live in the future is stupid. You need to be happy about these small victories. We can’t get to that future if we don’t live in the now, and work hard to get there.
I disagree, in panel two Joyce is ready to fight back but in the last panel Joyce looks like she finally understands.
In the previous strip shes angry at the church and shes a member of the church yet she seems to think the appalling attitudes of the church don’t have anything to do with her yet shes quite willing to help Ethan because in her mind he just has to fight his own urges and he’ll eventually become straight which is the sort of thinking that leads to corrective sexuality
This is a good point too. For all the talk about Joyce’s growth, she had been missing a key part of that, owning up to personal failings. Her outburst is just against the church, as if her hands were clean.
She’s been as understanding as her upbringing has prepared her. But she’s called being gay abnormal, taken it on herself to help “fix” a gay man, found it necessary to look for loopholes in scripture to help her gay best friend.
Her real growth is going to be from seeing how she fits into all of this. Roz is out of line, but this epiphany wasn’t complete without her.
Oh, and while Roz greatly overstates things, it looks to me like that’s where her anger is coming from. Seeing Joyce furious at what all these other people have done, as if washing her hands of having held the same prejudices.
Thats what I get as well but at least it looks like some comprehension in Joyces eyes in the last panel
Applauding? I would applaud Joyce, Roz doesn’t necessarily have too. What she has NO right to do is shove knowledge of bad things that Joyce believed and make her feel bad about it once she NO LONGER BELIEVES IT. It accomplishes literally nothing except make Joyce feel bad. She may be right but this tirade of hers does not make anything right. This shit is emotional bullying under a veil of self-righteousness, using truth to make wounds without a point.
Fuck it Roz she changed her mind, you don’t need to give her a standing ovation but, just pat yourself on the bag for seeing the world correct someone’s misconceptions and move on. There was no need for this.
Living in the real world – yes this A+
Roz doesn’t personally have to celebrate Joyce’s change in opinion, but if you can’t celebrate that, what can you celebrate? Public opinion doesn’t change all at once, it changes in one individual at a time.
Roz has a point, her words are needed to maybe open the blind eyes Joyce once had.
As wrong as it is for Roz to be an asshole to Joyce, maybe this is some emotional trauma coming out into the open for the first time. Was Roz ever kicked out of her parents’ house at any point?
I mean, Robin has been a bit harsh about Roz because politics, so there’s that at least.
And my ability to tolerate Roz’s outbursts in a class like is all the more lessened. No matter what cause you’re standing/fighting for, going out of your way to hurt someone is still being a bully.
While I agree with Roz’s words here, I think she should have waited for some context before saying them. Joyce is showing progress after four weeks of being stagnant. While Roz has a right not to praise her, she should have waited until a better time and brought it up to Joyce in a calmer fashion, asking if anything changed. Then if she said that Joyce only changing because her FRIEND was on the line, after years of remaining ignorant of others, it would have been justified.
Yelling at Joyce in the middle of a classroom, when Joyce has just had a very obvious emotional epiphany, without knowing anything about why or when Joyce changed her belief pattern…that isn’t right. And the fact that she attacks Dorothy for defending her friend (and Dorothy didn’t even say Roz was wrong, just that Joyce was on the right track), AND disrespects a teacher…
Roz needs to pay attention to context. Both the context of her own actions, and the context of the actions of others.
Roz is right, shouts out to my girl Roz, keeping it 100% all the time, dont enable the joyces of the world. which is worse, homeless lgbtq youth, or the guilt joyce feels? TRICK question, her guilt will always be worth zero, shouts out to Roz for keepin it real
Of course it could go the opposite way. Joyce could double down on her fundamentalism and become yet another enemy of LGBT+ equality because hey, who wants to be like that snarky hanky-panky queen in her Sociology class?
Funny how being in the right seems to give people the idea that they can skip the ‘being a decent human being’ part of winning friends and influencing people. It’s like we’re all Dr. Gregory House deep down.
nah this aint about “winning friends” no i dont want to have to coddle people to get rights and shelter and housing, im not going to sit here and indulge her far too late tears when people like me are kicked out of their homes and abadoned by their families and commit suicide at a rate nearly twice that of average teens. if straight allyship depends on my indulging straight people, and avoiding making them feel bad, then i don’t want their help. shouts out to my girl Roz
Joyce already believes that that shit is wrong now. What Roz is doing is clearly unnecessarily. Why yell at someone for something they no longer believe? Has Joyce personally contributed to any of those things? We know she hasn’t. In fact once she was presented with proof that such things happened she changed her tune very nearly on the minute. You don’t gotta clap her on the back for it, but . . . Yelling her down like that is not productive.
If Roz thought it might accomplish something I could forgive it, but it won’t. It obviously won’t. You say this like there’s an either or; preserve Joyce feels or let her think that shit is okay. Joyce doesn’t think that shit is okay, at least not anymore. And since yelling Joyce down won’t accomplish anything, Roz is basically just shouting down someone whose worldview is collapsing. That is ALL that Roz is doing. And that is pretty shitty.
Sarcasm, right?
I like your style.
Okay, so what did Roz accomplish in this instance?
The whole thing people are saying, that we shouldn’t criticize people for realizing the right thing for the wrong reason…
Well, there’s something to that.
But there’s also the simple fact that, if the only reason you abandon hateful worldviews is because they effect you personally, it doesn’t challenge hateful views about people who aren’t you or your loved ones.
Having something happen to you or your loved ones is one of the most effective ways to promote empathy for others in a similar way, unless you’re not much of an empathetic person to begin with.
Stephen Pinker cites studies saying that reading novels (and maybe autobiographies) can be an effective tool for growing empathy, too. But that’s actually pretty similar to having something hit someone you know: reading those sorts of things can get you into someone else’s head and experiences. “social simulation”. Few if any people decide their values entirely on abstract principle or statistics, and those who do aren’t necessarily good people.
Or more recently, stuff like http://www.annekreamer.com/the-business-case-for-reading-novels
Sometimes it takes a sledgehammer to get through that wall.
If it’s any consolation, Joyce didn’t think of it as hateful because she didn’t see the effects, and because she doesn’t have any hate in her own heart. She naively assumes (well… assumed) that because she doesn’t hate, that others who profess to hold the same beliefs also do not hate.
Reality, as the Buddha said, can be a stone cold motherfucker.
The problem is that humans are wired to be tribal creatures, clannish creatures. Humans are evolutionarily programmed to not care as much about the welfare of those outside their groupings, and they won’t, unless/until there is some parallel apparent to them that enables them to bridge that psychological us/them gap and start thinking of people as an extended part of their tribe. Pesky primate social evolution.
Roz isn’t wrong. Her words were harsh, but hearing them will help Joyce think about what she really believes.
But was Roz really the sledgehammer, if the breakthrough came before she opened her mouth?
Hm. Okay… puppykicker then?
I wouldn’t be so sure about the last point. Some of the most vocal activists out there, regardless of the issue, became activists because the issue hit very close to home. Wanting to save others from experiencing your pain or the the pain of someone you care deeply about is a very potent motivator.
…Roz ain’t wrong…
I love to see this kind of discussion. People making salient points, responding mostly in productive and non-combative manner, and apparently actually thinking about the different sides of the debate.
It’s almost… un-Internet.
Oh bugger. Am I in a parallel universe again?
Sort of, at least some of the nastiness has been replaced with bongos.
Boom boom boom boom. ^.^ Bongos. ^.^
No, I’m not making sense right now. I’m having a funny high.
It’s okay, you’ll be back in the real world by tomorrow.
I was afraid of that. The dating scene there really sucks.
I’ve never seen someone get kicked out during a university class, but this is definitely a good time to.
(I’m not saying Roz is -wrong-, but what she’s doing is overly confrontational for a classroom and kind of pointless (as others have said, she’s barely if at all touched the topic when Joyce actually needed a smack on the head)).
I saw it almost happen once. There was a black woman in one of my sociology classes who wasn’t very good at thinking before speaking. She basically accused the white girl next to her of being a racist because she moved her purse when the black lady sat next to her.
“Okay! This looks like a good time for a break!”
My wife got kicked out of a religious studies class at Canterbury University as in her opinion it seemed to be a recruiting drive for Christianity, mind you she ended up graduating with double degree with honors…
I worked as a peer instructor at the undergrad level for two years. Only once did I have to kick a student out of class. Coincidentally, he never came back (unfortunate, as the class was a mandatory last ditch effort for students struggling with a low GPA- his decision to stop attending resulted in his being expelled).
Oh, the church invades peoples’ homes and forcibly removes their children now? And even better! Joyce, a homeschooled student who is just now learning the ways of the world in college is responsible for the suffering of all homeless people of the LGBT community.
Roz is such an asshole.
… I wonder how Roz is able to sit so comfortably with her head lodged so far up her own ass.
Not only are Roz’s criticisms uncalled for, I don’t even think they are completely accurate either. Even if Joyce was taught homosexuality was wrong I don’t think her parents ever mentioned gays being kicked out of the house or disowned, and even if the person kicked out was a stranger, I believe she would still stand against that action.
I think that being against homosexuality and not giving shelter to gay and lesbian people can be related, depending on how religious the people/institutions are. You could easily make that kind of connection.
To all the people who foolishly keep saying Roz has a point here, imagine saying this:
“That ‘church’ that blew up buildings, beheaded people, raped 10 year old girls, and committed honor killings of women for simply leaving their home without a male escort? THAT WAS YOU. Until today, THAT WAS YOU.”
Just because some adherents to a religion do terrible things doesn’t mean that everyone who follows that religion is just as bad.
One of the many reasons why Cragalanch hates Roz
And the King of Gingers hates people who speak in the third person.
Wait…
… Now imagine it was like that, only you couldn’t leave the group and the group KEPT DOING IT!
I mean, it’s not like Joyce was one of those pro-gay Christians before now. Or attended pro-gay establishments. Literally just changed her stance this morning.
Roz is wrong for other reasons, but Joyce very much was a part of the institutions that perpetuate these behaviors until now. Not comparable to some peaceful Muslim being charged with the actions of some violent sect in another country.
You’re way off mark here. Given what Roz knows about Joyce (re: premarital sex and “your soul is a flower” metaphors) she makes a good guess that Joyce has been involved in church movements and youth groups that foment toxic attitudes towards LGBT+ children under the guise of being charitable.
Saying something like your example to a Muslim kid is just loaded with a lot more ugly assumptions that the ones Roz is making.
So when Roz ASSUMES that Joyce was part of those youth movements and so forth, it’s ‘a good guess’, but when you make the same statements to a Muslim person, hey, stop making assumptions!
What’s the difference? Oh, right, I forgot. We have to protect the ickle feelings of Muslims, but we can shit on the Christians all we want.
I’m an atheist myself – shit on them all equally, let the good lord Gabe Newell sort them out.
*facepalm*
That’s a false equivalence. Christians hold way way way more power in our society than basically any other group. It’s a simple matter of not punching down. If I have a baby bird in my hand and my grown brother nearby, punching them both with all my might does not actually result in anything resembling equality.
Sure. But I can’t help but notice that either way it still makes you a dick. Doing one makes you a bigger dick than the other, but it still makes you a dick. I mean, I suppose its possible that your bro or the baby bird had it coming, but on the face of it…
Darn it! I can’t think of a substitute for Dick that is equal in worthiness to Bongo
I can. It’s bango. =D
“Wanna play on my banjo?”
O.O NO. O.O
What in the name of Cheese does Gabe N have to do with this? Also, totes agree with Willis, + the fact that shitting on everyone results in nothing but more shit in a world with quite enough already.
Roz makes reference to the Joyce’s indignation being new behavior. This probably isn’t the first time the subject of homosexuality-bisexuality etc has come up in class. Bear in mind, only a couple of these lectures have actually been on panel, and even those lectures we only saw five or ten minute clips.
I’m think we’re supposed to infer that Joyce has already made her feelings on gay people known to Roz at an earlier date.
You may have missed the point entirely. Roz had reasonable grounds for making these assumptions about Joyce. Assuming that some random Muslim is a terrorist is a total shot in the dark. A better equivalent to that assumption would be assuming that some random Christian is a terrorist (see: IRA, KKK).
Just pointing out you needn’t go that far. Mainstream moderate Muslim theology is not any more accepting of LGBT and feminism than conservative Christianity is. I say this as a resident of a Muslim majority nation and thus see it first-hand.
I don’t disagree with Roz here, admittedly in part because in that situation I could see myself being that person. From Roz’s point of view, it seems like she thinks she has two options on how she can respond to this. Option 1 is that she can congratulate Joyce legitimately and applaud and, as she puts it, “act like she’s a goddamned hero” for this fairly simple epiphany about something that is basically a driving element behind Roz’s character. This is not a favorable option to Roz as it could give the impression to others that she thinks Joyce’s revelation is something more than what she believes should have been an obvious point from the start. Option 2 is that she can respond cynically and try to drive the point in deeper to Joyce. I think her response is ultimately more about that than feeling smug or superior or some bullshit like that. This isn’t about feeling superior to someone, it’s kind of a natural response to this considering how strongly Roz seems to feel about these issues. It’s important to Roz that she makes sure that Joyce knows that she has been a happy, knowing contributor to this issue the whole time, whether she knew better or not, and that disassociating herself from the church NOW doesn’t necessarily fix the things she’s already done and the time she’s spent being part of the problem. Joyce will have to do more than that to redeem herself in Roz’s eyes, I would think. If Joyce can keep this revelation and go back and right the things she’s done wrong because of her former belief, she might make this epiphany worth something.
That said, this is also obviously just a clash of backgrounds and the beliefs that sprouted from those backgrounds. We all know well that Joyce’s beliefs are what they are and she didn’t really know anything else until she came to college, and that’s been brought up many times in this comments thread in defense of Joyce. I would say, though, that you have to take both sides into consideration if you’re going to defend Joyce on that point. Roz doesn’t have that background at all. I find it likely that Roz can’t really understand how someone could grow up in that type of background and be so sheltered considering what her own views are. Like anyone, and particularly young people, she sees her opinions as obvious, logical things, such that she doesn’t see any reason why anyone with any sense in their heads wouldn’t come to the same conclusions.
But Roz has a third option, to keep her mouth shut.
I am not a fan of Joyce, and never have been. I recognize the fact that she tries to do the right thing. Being a full fledged fundie, and being 18 really doesn’t give her a wide world view.
She usually tries to help her friends, but if you look close at her relationships with others: she is pretty good at the double entende.
And she is good at getting what she wants by rationalizing her beliefs to fit what she wants them to mean. Lesbian sex = wrong….but Becky is a friend so =look hard in the Book, and maybe it’s after all not toooo wrong.
I know and have known people like her, and I run the other way when they get near me.
But, whatever reasons Roz has for attacking her: she is stupid to do it in this way. Joyce doesn’t seem to be asking anyone for anything here: she is too busy absorbing a totally new and against her personal belief system, idea. She hasn’t had time to care what anyone thinks it appears.
For that I have to say good for you Joyce. (noting that she did leave herself a back door ….”I may walk back on this, but for now I’m cheesed”. She still hasn’t broken with the Church and that statement seems to show she may well not.
But you can’t expect her to yet. She’s just now beginning to see flaws in the church, and she does not yet know what that means. Maybe she’ll try to rationalize it at first – the church has always been a stable rock for her- an absolute north on her moral compass. That the church is wrong swung that compass out of control for a minute.
Don’t get too crazy, Dina. Idon’tcare just gave a little bit of credit to Joyce. Even that was more than I expected.
Double entendre?…Joyce? Wait, how do you mean that? (honestly confused)
And thanks, this is a valid point. I forgot that Joyce left herself a back-door, and that validates a little of Roz’s anger for me.
Roz, I get the anger. I really do. It’s hard to forgive someone who has unfairly passed judgement for so long. Your response, however, is WAY out of line! No, Joyce shouldn’t get a medal for suddenly being outraged, but berating her isn’t a good way to go about things. Acknowledge that you’re having a hard time forgiving without being an ass about it. Believe me, I know it’s hard. So, needless to say, I’m with Leslie on this one.
Note: I am a lesbian transwoman, and leader of a student group for LGBTQ folks and allies on a major US college campus. Now, does what I’ve told you about myself make me absolutely right? Hell no! I just wanted people to understand where the opinion (and it is just an opinion) is coming from.
*slips away to get back to her homework*
The only point I see is that having difficulty in life entitles you to yell at people who’ve had slightly less difficulty in life.
I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but that is what we’re arguing about, right? One privileged first-world woman receiving an education 90% of the world won’t yelling at another privileged first-world woman receiving an education 90% of the world won’t because the second is slightly more privileged than her?
I mean, if we’re going to play the ‘My Life Sucks’ pissing game, I can think of way more people whose lives have sucked way harder than an LGBT teen kicked out in a Western, developed country with some semblance of a safety net.
Dammit that was meant as a reply to someone else.
this take, hot enough…. to melt steel beams?
There’s English words in there but I can’t surmise the meaning.
hotter than jet fuel
Could we please NOT drag that discussion into this?
I <3 Roz for this.
But not for her spectacularly hot cam shows?
I imagine Roz and Mike having a pretty intense makeout session sometime within the hour…
She’s not wrong, but that was a cheap shot.
I’m just coming to terms with being transgender. Part of this is because I was raised my like Joyce was. I know her thinking as was mine was wrong. However, it is how we were raised. It was engraved in our heads not to question and more or less to make LGBT people pariahs. Our actions will never be right, but tplease don’t blame Joyce or me or those like her too much. We really are trying. There us a lot of brainwashing we have to undo. Now I’m trying to help other religious people see. Joyce. Is an inspiration to me Elbe cause she is keeping her faith and changing her views. Again I agree Joyce and I were part of that institution and blame rests on us and there is not enough apology in the world. However, Joyce deserves forgiveness and the ability to forgive herself. I’ve forgiven myself and realized how closed minded I was. To all the people being mean about Joyce I’m just asking you to maybe lay off.0
Here’s what I find interesting. From what I can tell, Roz and Joyce aren’t actually complete opposites. Both suffer from a high sense of self-righteousness born from their backgrounds, though Joyce’s self-righteousness is caused by her upbringing and Roz’s is caused by rejecting her upbringing (or, at the very least, her association with her sister). They also both have difficulty seeing things from any perspective other than their own. You can see that in how Roz behaves in Gender Studies, saying she could teach the class herself and scoffing at Leslie’s suggestion that she might be wrong about some things. Roz isn’t as mature as she thinks she is. This doesn’t make her a bad person anymore than Joyce’s ignorance makes her a bad person. But it does mean that Roz has just as much growing up to do as Joyce does, just in a different context.
I can’t defend Roz’s actions here in spite of sympathizing with her sentiment. Her attitude implies that she feels qualified to judge Joyce, despite not really knowing anything about her personally. Roz knows that Joyce is a fundamentalist with some very backwards views on sex. That’s it. She knows nothing about Joyce outside of class and therefore does not know of the life-altering couple of days she’s had. Despite this, she’s made up her mind what Joyce is like and is yelling at her for it. And the same is true on the flip side. Roz honestly is not within any right to harp on Joyce for her sudden change in beliefs on homosexuality, just as Joyce was not within any right to claim Roz’s soul was tainted by having sex before marriage. Joyce was wrong to do that then, just as Roz is wrong to do this now. The issue I have is that Roz’s rant implies that it doesn’t matter if Joyce has begun to change her way because she didn’t do it fast enough. That’s honestly a very close-minded attitude to have; change doesn’t occur overnight and you would think Roz would know that. But that’s just it, she’s impatient and impulsive and she assumes she’s always right. And thus she launched an unprovoked attack on a girl she barely knows but feels she has every right to judge (probably because hey, Joyce judged first, which is again an extremely immature attitude). Not only that, she did so in a completely inappropriate setting and disrespected her teacher in the process. And still she acted as though she were justified, either not knowing or not caring that she was behaving in a manner very similar to that which she condemned. All this is just speculation, of course, but I’ve been thinking a lot about this since I first read the strip on Patreon.
So wow, that was an essay, sorry!
Sure, but it was well thought out and well said.
Aww, thanks. ^_^ I rarely comment because I’m so self-conscious about my writing. I’m always worried someone will take something I say the wrong way.
Meh. My essay on Evi (with far less context called on) was two pages long, so I think you’re good.
Right, both of them are first-term freshmen after all. Both of them entered with assumptions that they had complete understandings of the world. Part of the purpose of higher education is to challenge those convictions and produce more nuanced points of view. (Can you tell I went to a liberal arts school?)
Anyway, regarding Roz specifically, I think that the main issue with her position is that, while she recognizes Joyce has been a part of a system that reinforces hegemonic norms, Roz is ignoring how that system also works enforce those norms with in Joyce.
ROZ. Roz Roz Roz. You’re great. I love you for your progressive attitude and ambitious, noble goals.
That said, check your goddamn privilege. YOU weren’t raised by the church. YOU didn’t spend your entire life with people who are suddenly the bad guys. You don’t have to cope with the idea that all your (corporeal) role models are being torn off their pedestals every goddamn day.
It’s ironic how one-sided and intolerant you are.
Intolerance in the name of tolerance is progressive, apparently.
My bad conduct is always justified, while yours is unforgivable.
I think TVTropes calls that “Protagonist-Centered Morality”.
Quite possible.
I submit that to most people, it has no name, as it is simply obvious and unquestionable fact.
Fundamental Attribution Error in academic speak. “people’s tendency to place an undue emphasis on internal characteristics to explain someone else’s behavior in a given situation, rather than considering external factors.”
Or “I’m getting an abortion because I really need one, she’s getting an abortion because she’s a slut.”
“I’m telling it like it is, she’s an asshole”.
… Dangit.
Roz does have a point, of course. But people who are so angry and unforgiving give me some of my most severe panic attacks, and belittling Joyce in front of the whole class seems incredibly counter-productive. I guess I should probably try to skip these next few pages and try to get a summary from someone else later.
Catfight or bust in the corridor!
Oh, to be 18 again, and know everything.
HANKY PANKY YOU, WILLIS!
,,,,,Actually, social injustice is Very Good, as you can see, the teenage character in this webcomic is being abrasive about social justice
so let’s tone it down with the thinking social justice is good, people, as you can see, it causes meanness, which is worse than social injustice, look at how bad this white person has been made to feel, you know the whole social justice dealy has gone too far, if people could just have perfect tone, rationality, and consideration when doing the social justice like the respectable anti social justice people, maybe the whole social justice thing would be ok to me, but as for now, I just dunno man, maybe shut it down, teenagers on tumblr have said things that sound silly.
I’m white, middle-class, and I’m a man with a penis who is completely okay with having that penis.
I’m not welcome there anyway so, hey, if they’re going to call me evil anyway, I may as well have the fun of actually being evil.
King of Gingers seems to have gotten lost here, can someone page his parent or guardian to meet him at the front of the store?
nah, it’s cool, whoever can fill in the most squares on the bingo card gets to say and do anything they like.
Well, admittedly, anyone posting here is pretty much guaranteed not to have the giant, glaring ‘not born in a Western and/or developed nation’ square. You get that one square, you win the entire ‘My Life Sucks’ game.
But those sorts of people don’t have Internet, so we can pretend they don’t exist.
Unless, of course, we run short of things to wrap ourselves in, and need to co-opt their plight for the very important purpose of winning arguments online.
I like you.
ay bby u want sum fuk?
and that’s what people who don’t denounce the social justice after seeing this actually think! scary, I’m glad I can remain neutral and good, saying roz was wrong here just isn’t enough
I’m not saying I disagree with you.
I’m just saying you’re an asshole, in the same way Einstein was a sexist jerk and I can still agree that energy equals mass times velocity squared.
you’re right, we are not in disagreement, the state of society is very good, and people shouldn’t get so riled up about it, I realize now that if someone is a jerk about social justice, it is a valid argument for me to use against social justice. I respect you for having the cojones to call me out for mocking your brilliant takes on privilege and the righteous take down of the tumblr illuminati, whose oppression of the straight white male is powerful, pervasive, and undeniably just as bad as any problem in the world.
I think that through this great debate we have come to a mutual respect
I’m sure you’ll get many reblogs for this when you post it. Might want to edit it so you appear to know how to use capitalization, punctuation, and the English language.
I was going to screen cap this and post it on my pro knockout game white genocide tumblr, but now I am too ashamed by your superior rationality and tell-it-like-it-is-tude. ive learned the evils of privilege checking, i will now embark on a journey of learning, thank you for the link to your subreddit
I was going to put a stop to this, but I think it’s wrapped back around to enjoyable.
I know, right? He just keeps going.
Oh, fuck you.
actually, it’s not he, I prefer pronouns you don’t even know, I’m going to force you to learn new words, and interrupt adam carolla podcasts about ways to avoid low t with commercials of gay black people talking or something
*is confused*
Posts whose sense of sarcasm has a sense of sarcasm.
I can’t even tell what’s ironic anymore.
Is that you John Wayne? Is this me?
Is this how mind control works?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2QrWzsfghA
I’ve been in a classroom that landed in a vehement fight like this. The teacher REALLY had trouble dealing with it. I’m hoping Leslie manages to pull through this.
Make out now
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/continue/
Worked out for Ruth and Billie, I’ll give you that much.
“You’re not wrong, Roz, you’re just an asshole.”
“Golf clap?”
“Golf clap.”
*golf clap*
Hey, Roz, heads up. When a member of the community you’re trying to defend says to knock it off, you bleeding knock it off.
I don’t care if you’re filled with outrage. I don’t care if you feel that you’re doing the right thing. We’re the folks who are getting hurt, and we don’t want to do it your way, so STOP.
(I’m black, not LGBT, but I believe the principle is transitive)
What’s Roz’s point? That because until today Joyce represented the very institution she is now decrying, her transformation is remarkable and that to accomplish such a change in so short a time, it must be driven by a great compassion for others and Joyce should, in fact, be treated like a ‘goddamned hero’? Because that’s the interpretation where what she’s saying is worth saying at all. I don’t think that’s the point, though.
Otherwise the only purpose of this rant is to insult Joyce for absolutely no reason, and the only reason the insult works is because Joyce’s point of view has changed enough for her to see it as an insult, which means the insult is inherently inaccurate. Joyce was ignorant, but she isn’t anymore. She would have stood by the Church’s views on homosexuality, but she doesn’t now. Roz is just attacking the things about Joyce that Joyce has just changed – not even bringing up any issues she has with the views Joyce still has – to make Joyce feel bad about herself. The reason that Roz does this is just that Joyce hasn’t changed enough for Roz to like her, but that is not a valid reason; that’s just spite.
I’m not saying that nothing good can come from this. Joyce could be reminded of her quickly some of her beliefs have changed and accept that it was a change for the better, and that maybe she needs to re-evaluate some of her other attitudes and preconceptions. But it’s not because Roz did anything good here. That’s not Roz’s goal, because she could have done that nicely, and been much more direct about it. Everything Roz said is true, which her defenders here in the comments keep pointing out, but everything she said was also driven by blind aggression, with no intent other than to hurt. Of course, in fiction when a character does this it’s usually forgivable, because it’s necessary to provide exposition for a character’s emotions. In fiction, a character’s emotions always have to be externalised, because they’re meaningless when they’re internalised. But we’re judging Roz by real–world standards, and she is doing the wrong thing here.
Well, Roz is correct, which according to some people, means she can be as abrasive and caustic as she wants to be.
Again, we’re all Dr. Gregory House deep down inside.
Meh. I’m not sold on Roz being right about anything, frankly. Abandoning people to the streets does not seem like something Joyce would ever be willing to accept or excuse. I could see her questioning Lezlie’s statistics maybe, but I don’t buy that she would give these practices a big thumbs up even if Becky hadn’t shown up.
Though it could and should be done in a much better manner, I think one element of what Roz is doing is what Joyce needs. It’s very easy to slip from one comfortable position to the slightly-less-wrong comfortable position.
To go from being the one with the bigoted position to thinking you deserve a cookie simply for not holding that view.
My father used to argue against same-sex marriage. Then, he changed his view to the notion that, if it went up for a vote, he would vote for it, but that he wasn’t comfortable with it being done via the courts. At which point, I asked him how he would feel if his own marriage was subject to public vote as well. He got less wrong, but he felt that he was in a rewardable position because he didn’t hold the view that homosexuality was a mistake of nature.
It’s too easy to become comfortable and simply rest in a position that is best identified as “not as much a part of the problem”. Hey, the progress is good, but it’s not over. And, part of progress is, at times, giving an apology for having been on the wrong side of an issue.
That said, Roz is, in part, reacting to Joyce’s previous castigation of Roz. Oh, gee, where was this sudden reaction to cruelties in the name of God covered with false humility back then? And, no, Roz is not under any obligation to forgive Joyce. Other people’s activities regarding premarital hanky panky should be one of the things that Joyce has to reconsider. So, yeah, Joyce had some response coming.
So, should Roz have done what she did? No. Is she totally unjustified? No. Sometimes, there just isn’t an answer that can satisfy.
But, I’ll stand by my refusal to judge someone for failing to forgive, failing to forgive fast enough, or failing to forgive absent an honest apology.
Yes, you should pressure people into changing positions when they’re clearly wrong. No, you should not bludgeon people into changing their positions.
Is she totally unjustified? Yes. Her background at best explains her actions, but nothing excuses them. She’s doing this because she sees the fundie in a vulnerable situation and grabs the opportunity to kick her while she’s down. It’s bullying plain and simple. Take it from someone who turned to bullying after being a victim of it. There is no justifiable excuse for it.
Also, please point me to the panel where Joyce is asking to be rewarded for changing her point of view. Is it the shocked reaction in panel 2 to when she reacts to an accusation out of nowhere?
Damn lack of editing posts. Asking to be forgiven* not rewarded.
Speaking the truth doesn’t preclude you from being a bully, despite what Roz thinks. Well said.
Lumino talked about Roz’s “inability to forgive” on display. That’s what brought up that part. To a certain extent, I doubt Joyce even remembers her earlier well-meaning insult to Roz, so she hasn’t asked for forgiveness or even acknowledge that she’s done wrong.
So, I’m going to go ahead and say it, Roz, in both the fact that she’s speaking a necessary truth that cannot be said in a way that protects the receiver’s comfort, and in that she’s reacting to a change in attitude that, very easily, becomes an erasure of one’s own past wrongdoings (when Roz was subject to some vehemence of one of those) there is *some* justification.
I’m not saying Roz should have done what she did in the way she did. But, I am going to say that a narrative that relies upon those who have been wronged to, independently, imagine and carry out the perfectly moral response is toxic.
Yes dorothy people are difficult :< ; Goodluck pandering both
Roz and Joyce-type for your election…
While I agree that Roz outburst were uncalled for. We should remember that weeks ago Joyce did basically same thing to her by (implicitly calling her "decayed flower that lost all it's petals" due to her pre-marital hanky-panky) even though Joyce did it out of concern (based on her belief), I believe Roz took it as an insult. Knowing Roz, she probably already tired to patronizing the same type of people like Joyce over and over again.
Discrimination and bashing hurt you know? Not to mention when it's constantly happening. Look Sarah for example, while her case might be different from Roz, the end result were same; an angry bitter person.
Yes Joyce is changing. But it just because Becky whom is her bestfriend happened to be LGBT+ (and likely would be "re-educated" by his father). Did she spent at least similar amount of effort to Ethan? (At least she should said, it's okay it's who you are, but no, she agreed to be his "beard"!). Joyce wouldn't change, if it isn't happened to someone close to her!
But unfortunately that's how life's work. Wherever you're born, and what kind of upbringing you have were matter of luck (Yes, people does born on honor-killing village in India or Nice, tolerant house at London). And people tend to follow the belief of their parent or caregiver (Because indoctrination were most effective in FORMATIVE AGE)
And no. Not all people actively trying to consider both sides of argument or try to play devil's advocate. Some told (during their formative age) it were sin, other simply didn't have energy to do it (it's not their main concern).
TLDR; Joyce were unfortunate to be grew up at her discriminatory family (whom also unfortunate to be indoctrinated such by their parents). Roz were tired too constantly explain the effing same thing to people like joyce while constantly bashed. She assumed Joyce were a hypocrite that only willing to change when the stake were personal.
Summary :
People should be more like Joe. His Goal of Life were attaining the maximum happines.
After all, we are just starstuffs. And in the grand scale of thing? Ignorable.
Nice comment about Dorothy – this is what you have to juggle to have a political career, something Robbin knows…
About Ethan… Joyce DID accept him as gay and did what he asked her to. She didn’t break up with him after he revealed himself to be gay, she kept up their relationship that HE asked him to have with her. A bad decision, yes, but Ethans bad decision.
Yup, Roz is hurt… and she found an opportunity to do retaliate to Joyce and she took it. It is maybe understandable, but it is nothing close to constructive. Another bad idea.
part of that, however, was based on the vague notion that she would eventually “fix” him. Once again, the difference between abstracts and real people.
It’s a bit dangerous to define the church as one singular establishment.
I love his shield. I also automagically reads this out in the tunes of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m9QUoW5KnY
Is that a sword or a sex aid?
It’s an obvious phallic symbol.
I love the exasperation!Dorothy avatar for this comment.
Too… Many… Sylables… GAH!!!
NO! Bad Willis! You aren’t supposed to win internets on your own website’s comment section. It simply isn’t done!
Now go sit in that corner young man and think about what you’ve done!
*bites tongue*
NO ALL HAIL! NO! THAT’S A BAD IDEA!
*bites tongue*
Leslie: I said no more.
Roz: No, I’m serious.
Leslie: Oh, alright then, as long as you’re serious. Proceed.
For everyone who keeps hating on Joyce (or anyone in the real world) for “only changing their minds when they have a personal stake in it,” I have a question for you.
Let’s say someone tells you that X teacher is awful. A lot of people tell you. But, at the end of the day, you’re thinking “aw, they can’t be as bad as everyone says.” So you take a class with that teacher. And they’re TERRIBLE. And suddenly you believe it.
“Oh, but everyone warned you! It’s your fault!”
People believe evidence they see, not evidence they hear about. It’s just a fact of humanity. No matter who you are or what you believe, things are more important when they effect you personally.
And that’s true of everyone. White gay men care more about gay rights than women’s rights or racial rights. Straight black men care more about racial rights than LGBT or women’s rights. Straight white women care more about women’s rights than LGBT or racial rights. Mix and match for all other minorities/oppressed groups.
And here’s the important thing: THAT DOESN’T MEAN THEY DON’T CARE, AND IT DOESN’T MAKE THEM BAD PEOPLE. But it’s a natural human instinct to care more about the things that harm you personally more than things that harm others. So getting all high and mighty because you had a personal stake in something before someone else did is stupid, ignorant, and judgmental.
You never actually asked a question.
So, in how many strips will Roz run into Becky, have a brief conversation before being interrupted by Joyce, and then finally connect the dots when she sees that Becky and Joyce are friends?
Roz still doesn’t know Joyce nearly got raped at the party she forced Dorothy to bring a friend to interview her for.
She surmised it, though.
See, that would make me snap. Roz is playing with fire, and one day she will get burned. Badly.
Roz is more wrong than she is right.
One one hand, Joyce needs to hear this from someone, and it might as well be Roz. It’s one thing for Joyce to accept Becky and Ethan, and to feel that when she was Confronted with Homosexuality, she reacted in a way that was consistent with her faith in her personal relationship with Jesus.
It’s another thing for Joyce to realize that she herself has hurt Roz and people like her, by supporting other people’s rights to a Jesus that condones disapproving and punishing.
BUT Roz needs to learn that there is a time and a place for confrontation, and this class is not the place to call Joyce on her background shit. This is literally the place to study gender, and Roz is not the person to evaluate how well Joyce is learning her lessons.
AFTER class is when Roz can yell at Joyce as much as she wants.
Joyce is already hearing this. In her head, right now. She doesn’t need a self righteous bongo to tell it to her.
If someone starts coming around to your way of thinking, the proper response isn’t to emotionally set them on fire.
As someone who’s been the smug jerk sitting in the back of class and mouthing off at the Christian sitting up front, I understand exactly where Roz is coming from.
And she is totally wrong.
This will do nothing except make Roz feel superior, and make everyone else uncomfortable. She won’t change anyone’s mind, she won’t make Joyce come to any new realizations, and at worse she might make Joyce become even more entrenched.
you do remember Joyce was the Christian looking down on her and calling her “tainted” not to long ago, right?
So this is the “two wrongs make a right” philosophy?
More the, “If Joyce gets a pass for her ‘background and upbringing’, maybe the same should apply to Roz, who is, after all, the same age,” philosophy.
Yeah, and that’s not okay either. But is yelling at Joyce in the middle of class at all a smart decision? I’m pretty sure the answer is no.
Jesus, FUCK YOU ROZ!
You are not the person to do this. This is not the place to do this. And this doesn’t even need to be done. All this can possibly do it be counter-productive.
This is just a personal attack one someone in the public place based on self righteousness. Leslie is so right to kick her out and I wouldn’t let her back into the classroom without writing Joyce a personal letter of apology.
You’re just a Mary of another stripe : /
she shouldn’t have done it, but it needed to be done. Joyce may not have ever turned a lgbt person away, but the church’s beliefs were her own, and she has to own up to that.
A bit incorrect. She’s almost always ever deferred to the Bible for her beliefs, not church doctrine. Not even her parents’ beliefs.
There’s still a lot of church doctrine mixed into her beliefs, too. A lot of the crazy she’s been spewing didn’t actually come from the Bible.
Grr, now I really want to go back and correct that overuse of ‘a lot’.
This had nothing to do with helping Joyce own up to anything. It had to do with Roz feeling superior because she got to kick the “fundie” when she was down. Roz is a self righteous narcissistic bongo, and anything she says that has any value is merely an example of a broken watch.
Of course I may be projecting.
Oh, hey, language filters. Neat!
What filters?
Dude wants to call Roz the b word that sounds like witch but it comes out as Bongo. That fact they want to use this word in this situation makes their argument way less compelling
Potentially, to some. It’s not how it equates in my head. In my speech I tend to treat it as a feminine form of asshole (which for some reason I don’t apply to females), with no more or less intended impact. However if others consider it more significant, I shall refrain.
A girl who’s a bongo is assertive and doesn’t care about being nice. A male bongo is a weak willed feminine whiner. Thus the conclusion of the word is the most abrasive, stong willed women is on the level of the weakest, wussiest male. If she’s being an asshole call her an asshole, everyone has one. You needed a different word to apply to women says way more about you
Assuming everybody makes the same connection as you or puts that much thought into it. I’m not that deep. Really I just appropriated words already being used as negative labels and applied them to those who cause pain to others primarily because they can, but don’t qualify for the title of “Scum” or “pile of infectious human waste”. Since it does hold different significance to others, I’ve already stated I shall refrain.
Also I must insist that there is a fundamental difference between an assertive person who doesn’t care if they offend (which describes basically my entire family and most of the people with whom I associate) and those who go out of their way to hurt people. Joyce is generally assertive, Walky is assertive, in most of her dealings, Roz is just assertive. Here Roz is actively trying to hurt Joyce. That’s different. Knowing (or even just thinking you know) what needs to be said and being brave enough to say it isn’t the same thing as actively trying to hurt someone.
I didn’t type Bongo 🙂
I like it better with Bongo.
I believe it filtering out the word for a female dog
test: bongo
Yeah, it is
‘bongo-slap’
I like that substitution.
It’s right up there with “make cheese for you” in the Pinky and the Brain parody of Frozen Peas.
LOLOLOL!!! This is soooo much more amusing than it should be. More random filtration please!
Sounds like it could hurt, really.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Bongo_NashvilleZoo.jpg
it’s irrelevant where she gets the beliefs from as long as 1. religious belief 2. they are the same anti-gay BS. However, what I said in the previous comment and what i meant are a bit different. i’m gonna copy someone else’s comment to correct it cuz I’m tired “For all the talk about Joyce’s growth, she had been missing a key part of that, owning up to personal failings. Her outburst is just against the church, as if her hands were clean.
She’s been as understanding as her upbringing has prepared her. But she’s called being gay abnormal, taken it on herself to help “fix” a gay man, found it necessary to look for loopholes in scripture to help her gay best friend.
Her real growth is going to be from seeing how she fits into all of this. Roz is out of line, but this epiphany wasn’t complete without her.”
I’m confused. You’re saying just having Religious beliefs is grounds for attack? As for Joyce’s outburst, it was a relatively brief outburst from someone who’s just been exposed to flaws in her entire world view. She hasn’t had any time to wrap her mind around the full ramifications of it or even process it all. Of course she hasn’t processed any guilt about it, she hasn’t been given a chance before Roz started with the emotional curbstomping.
And the fact is, that even if she’d immediately thrown herself prostrate before her teacher and begged forgiveness (as this is apparently the correct response), the result would have still been the same, because Roz saw the “fundie” in crisis and decided to start kicking.
once again, tired. I in no way believe having religious beliefs means people should attack you. I also don’t believe Roz should have done what she did, but believe it contributed or will contribute to Joyce’s growth. She still needs/needed to make the connection that church=her. I’m aware she’s nondominational (although i don’t think it matters considering the context) but the beliefs of the church are very much the beliefs she had, and recognizing the connection will allow her to question her other beliefs without the need of a runaway.
Good manners dictate that one gives someone a reasonable chance to come to terms with it themselves before doing the pushing. Joyce hasn’t even had a chance to fully process what she’s heard and what it actually means aside from an immediate emotional response.
Not only that, but who says that equating the church with herself is the right connection? The vast majority of her experiences with it is in isolation with no awareness of what’s outside that, as a child. Her entire story arc is basically leaving that childhood behind and stepping out on her own, when all the decisions of what to do and what to believe are hers and hers alone. At this point, nobody has a right to tell her how she should feel.
“When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.”
Or maybe she’s mad that the fundie girl that called her tainted is suddenly pretending she never did anything bad like the mean church is doing to her friend. Joyce has not only internalized the teachings of the church, she repeated them and so acted and judged Roz in a very demaining and hurtful way. And now Joyce, while taking an important step, isn’t owning up to any hurt SHE might have caused. Roz isn’t right to lash out, but she’s not here to lead Joyce go any revalation, Roz is her own person and is acting as such
This might very well be the only non-biased comment I’ve seen on this page so far. It’s almost calming to read.
Fuck did it need to be done, how does it help anyone?
Or is Roz some omniscient passer of judgement?
First thing I read was “Jesus, FUCK YOU”. I was wondering what Joshua ben Joseph had gotten into this time.
If Mike had said any of this to Joyce everyone would be praising him.
Joyce needed to hear this.
Yeah it’s harsh. But she needed to hear this. This will lead to more of that “character development” y’all like so much.
But whatever, Roz is just a bongo. She should be NICE to the girl who has openly judged her since day one! Gosh, how dare she not have psychic powers so she can immediately know what Joyce has been going through! Stupid!!!!!
I wouldn’t praise him. I find the way everyone reacts to Mike both in and out of story revolting.
Also she didn’t need to here it and not from this percussion-instrument
But Mike WOULDN’T say this. And he wouldn’t strike now either. Mike strikes in the aftermath, when someone is getting up again. But he also strikes to correct someone’s form. What he’d probably do is mention how Joyce was going back to believing in the same group which almost raped Becky and caused her to have to run away from home, and only when Joyce began considering not being mad at the church anymore.
They almost raped Becky? I feel like I missed something somewhere.
Or is that apart of the ‘rehabilitation’ thing?
Corrective rape is part of Rehab. Plus, (Joyce doesn’t know about this) there’s Ethan’s parents.
Oh damn I forgot about the Ethan’s parents thing! I guess that WOULD be apart of the rehabilitation thing if they took that as a normal thing to do.
No, the thing is, Mike says things that need to be said. Mike would’ve said something like “Interesting how you now are upset at the Church when before you said you hated homosexuality.” He would not have done what Roz had done. Also, Mike has seen Joyce’s turn around, and he said nothing. He didn’t comment when Joyce said she’d kissed a girl. Walky however, did.
While Mike is an asshole, he knows when to say things, and when to stay quiet.
Yes, but he is a master of phrasings. He would have said it better than you or I could manage. All hail to the king. (And because he married both Dina and Amber, that makes Dina, Amber, and Amazi Girl queens!
I don’t even know where to begin. I’ve spent an hour writing, erasing and editing this post to try to explain why Roz is wrong to react this way, but the thing is, I shouldn’t have to. Reprimanding someone for learning to think for themselves and become better people is the absolute stupidest thing I can think of. Being met with scorn and resentment for doing the right thing isn’t going to motivate anyone. At worst, it could make them retreat back into their comfort zone of fundamentalism and ignorance.
Nothing is worth that risk if someone is already making an effort to become a better person. Roz isn’t being clever. She’s not calling Joyce out on hypocrisy. She’s telling her that it doesn’t matter what she does in the present or the future, because she’ll only ever be judged for her past. Noone is saying that Joyce changing her mind erases what she used to believe. I’ve done things I will never forgive myself for, hurtful things, because the moment I do is the moment I say it wasn’t wrong. When you know that what you used to believe is wrong, you don’t need others to remind you. Trust me, it’s the first thing you do when you look in the mirror every morning.
I’m guessing Roz view is based on the idea that this is too little, too late. All this crap still happened while Joyce was blissfully off in fundieland, it didnt magically start when she went to college. And yes, she will always be judged by her past, because your past doesnt just go away when you start behaving like a decent person. That is a mark she will have to carry for the rest of her life regardless of what she does from this point.
Too little, too late 0.o
Joyce is what, 18 years old? Holy shit, when is it not too late? 12? 8? 3? 5 seconds after you pop out?
After a certain age, you are expected to understand that actions have consequences. What did Joyce think, that all those gay teens her church spew bile over went to live on a nice farm somewhere? She’s almost an adult for gods sake.
A lot of churches don’t actually spend their time openly spewing bile at gay people to the children of their congregations. Many don’t talk about it at all, especially to the young, impressionable ones. A lot of churchgoers who claim to hold to the literal interpretation of the text themselves don’t say much on the topic unless directly confronted with it.
Also, Joyce was sheltered and home-schooled in a fundamentalist environment throughout her childhood. Regardless of state and federal laws on the subject, a person doesn’t spring into full maturity once they pass an arbitrary age limit. Some have to “grow up” fast. Others take longer to put aside their childhood and start accepting adulthood (some never do).
This is Joyce’s first steps into actual adulthood where her choices and beliefs are totally her own. So far she’s taken a stand against her parents over Dorothy and has now openly denounced the institution that has dominated her entire life because of its treatment of the LGBT community. And we’re, what? A couple months in to it? Keep in mind that the entirety of her understanding of gays before this point probably consisted of her pastors reading Romans and Leviticus at her and rewarding her for quoting bible verses.
Her transition into grasping the real world is not only commendable, it’s remarkably smooth and fast. Roz is a… bongo.
When you’re raised in that mindset, not even having been given the tools to understand that other mindsets are valid (like, literally — you question, you literally die in a lake of fire)…honestly, I’m so glad Joyce is figuring this stuff out now. It takes A LOT for someone raised in such a toxic environment to stand up publicly and say “THIS IS NOT OKAY,” especially when they’re still a Christian. Deconstructing what you’ve been taught as the absolute truth is really fucking hard work, and doing it publicly in a space where you expect support and being shot down for not believing it soon enough is fucking shitty.
So because it took her longer than people who weren’t indoctrinated in a sheltered, conservative and bigoted environment, she should be expected to change just as quickly?
“When is it not too late?”
I’d say it would be nice if Joyce had some of these revelations before she beat the shit out of someone, in the name of her God, for wanting something other than what the church told her to want.
(Seeing the “bongo” being thrown around today kind of makes me want “fuck” to be auto-filtered to “hany-panky” on April Fools’ Day or something.)
YES! YES! THAT WOULD BE EPIC!
Yes, I do realize how messed up that is coming from an anti-censorship person. But I do think that would be hilarious!
I’m not sure what you think Joyce did during her childhood but I’m pretty sure she didn’t bomb any abortion clinics.
I agree. This is basically gate-shutting. “You don’t know enough about our cause to be in it.” And in the worst context possible (in the middle of class, just after an obviously very emotional and personal outburst).
The only purpose this serves is to establish that Roz has better “social awareness” (or whatever) -cred than Joyce.
Roz is wrong for reacting this way, but like I said above, I don’t think it’s simply because Joyce was learning the wrong way. It’s because she put everything on an external church, and didn’t own up to where her own sex-is-evil judgments were in line with them.
Roz Roz Roz…. Tsk tsk tsk… You’re screwed!
She was screwed before the first day of college.
… oh wait, that’s not what you meant. Never mind!
To be honest, this is growth I have wanted to see in Joyce. Roz is definitely being overbearing on the subject, as she always has been on it and other subjects that razz her politician sister. Until I grew up, I used to love to see the moments when “fundies” could get called out. Now, as a mature adult I can see that neither my views nor theirs are 100% infallible. Indeed, acting like how “open-minded” you are and lording it over someone who is giving their own views a harsh look is just as bad, if not worse. Joyce grew up painfully sheltered. That is true. She should still be allowed the right to revise her views and grow.
Not now, Roz. You’re right, but now is not the time. (And certainly not using the words you’re using, in any case.)
I reread this series in it’s entirety over the last 2(ish) weeks… and I realized I need to comment more… Also the word “doctorinization” is thrown around a heck of a lot. Not that that’s a bad thing… just an observation.
Okay, I haven’t had my caffeine yet this morning. I read the 4th panel and thought “isn’t Joyce’s last name Brown?” Took me a moment to realize Roz was saying “Miss Fundamentalist” (possibly some non-Americans might not get the reference).
I think Im going to side with Roz on this one. Mainly because I dont like Joyce and no character development on Earth will remove her fundie stigma in my eyes.
You sound like a religious fanatic, arguing in absolutes.
Also Sith.
Absolutes do exist. The religious ones just happen to be wrong.
Even if you think the religious are wrong (I agree) it is poisonous to suggest that people are forever tainted by association with bad ideas. People are brought up with ideologies both good and bad, and shaking the bad ones is difficult, even for an adult.
To me, the highest virtues of the pursuit of truth are the willingness to reject ideas on insufficient evidence and the willingness to change one’s mind when evidence is presented.
Vilifying those that are willing to change their minds for good reasons is contemptible.
*reject ideas that are supported by insufficient evidence
If you are serious I just want you to know your original post is literally indistinguishable from genuine trolling
In case you were wondering it was when you said “no amount of evidence can change my mind” because that is the fundamentalist creedo in a nutshell.
Fundie Joyce at the start of this story was no worse than most people.
Willis, do you get this crap from people?
Then you must also hate the author of this comic as well. If not, how did the fundie stigma get removed from him?
People can change. Honestly, you sound a lot like the people that you claim you hate.
I always did hate Roz. I hope her sister returns soon.
Who, Robin? She’s lost all the fun her character, if you ask me.
Riley was hilarious, though.
Not a pleasant realisation. Never is.
Reminds me of this one episode of DS9, synopsis follows:
Damar learns that his wife and son, in hiding since the rebellion began, have been found and killed by the Dominion. Weyoun and the Female Changeling both knew that Damar’s family was not involved in the rebellion, but their deaths were ordered anyway. The grieving Damar wonders out loud how anyone could give an order to murder innocent people. Before she can stop herself, Kira asks him the same question (referencing the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor), deepening Damar’s anguish and causing him to leave the room in disgust. Kira immediately regrets her outburst, but Garak tells her that the pain Damar feels now will help him give up his “romanticism” about the past, which in turn will help him lead a new Cardassia after the war.
So… Maybe I kinda see the value in what Roz did? Just a tiny bit?
I don’t think it so much what roz was trying to say but very much in how she was saying it and perhaps why but that is a lot harder to divine in a webcomic.
Regardless the end result does not justify the means (Or does it? I haven’t been keeping up with that debate) so being a bully and excusing that behavior by saying it might help in the long run (you can’t guarantee it will) doesn’t suddenly make bullying right.
You want people to consider your feelings when they speak, this is natural and very much part of LGBT+ communities so why can Roz be excused for not doing something she in turn demands other people do.
Do unto others and all that. Read it in this cool book once.
Not really.
Damar was actually on Bajor and took part in Cardassia’s military ops. He actually did the things Kira is judging him for. Joyce to the best of my knowledge has never chased a gay child out of their home or really hurt anyone beyond the average that most people hurt other people.
Likewise Kira suffered personal losses at the hands of Cardassia and was in a perfect position to pass judgement since she knew the situation first hand and knew Damar. Meanwhile Roz is just a spoiled brat who doesn’t know shit all about Joyce.
Joyce has already made the leap of understanding. Roz is just being an asshole.
That scene is ds9 is quite different from the scene in this comic. Damar was still viewing the cardassian occupation of Bajor through rose tinted glasses believing it was right and just. Kira was in the weird position of having to help the former oppressors of her people who were now themselves being oppressed whilst being treated with distrust and at times open hostility by some of them. She spoke without thinking and was immediately regretful but as garak pointed out what she said was a necessary wake up call to damar.
Whereas Joyce had already had the wake up call and realisation hence her outburst of outrage the previous strip. Roz wasn’t trying to facilitate any further realisations but was ranting at and verbally bashing Joyce for not realising this sooner and for possibly having been a contributing factor in the past. Furthermore she continued when told to stop and is obviously not regretful of anything she’s said. Given that nobody had asked her to treat Joyce like a hero or had given any reacted to Joyce’s outraged outburst yet IMO Roz rants are way out of line.
Also another difference to note is that damar actively participated in the oppression of Kira’s people whereas Joyce was completely unaware of the church doing anything wrong until just now.
For a moment you made me think there was a DS9 comic, and I was wondering why I’d never heard of it before. 🙂
Allow me to add absolutely nothing to the discussion and just say that that scene with Damar and Kiram and the way Damar reacts, is one of my favourite scenes in DS9.
Also more non-DS9 things need DS9 related discussions attached.
The discussion yesterday how Joe was disrupting the lecture and if Leslie should take action against him… This is where the line is drawn.
Joe took a few moments to pose and grumble, then he sat down. Roz attacked a fellow student about a very personal and sensitive topic, and Leslie is clearly trying to make the classroom a safe space for this discussions. Not cool.
Roz disrupted class in the middle of a very important teaching session about a cause she claims to advocate. It takes lots of time and effort to build the sort of classroom chemistry Leslie had achieved here, and Roz destroyed it in order to brag that she already knew it.
That, and she wouldn’t shut up when Leslie said ‘enough’.
It would tickle my schadenfreude for Roz to be flunked out of gender studies.
I think that’s a very likely outcome… or more likely that she will refuse to follow whatever restrictions Leslie will place on her and quit in a huff.
Well, she already thinks she knows it all – http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/prank-pulled/ – maybe she’ll do a Walky?
Roz strikes me as one of those people who think being loud and obnoxious about being tolerant makes her a decent enough person and that if one of her friends ended up almost being disowned for being gay she’d raise her hands and go, “Woah, you expect me to HELP?”
I admit it is presumptuous, I know less about Roz than I do about Joyce, but what I do know about Joyce is that she’s been more charitable and helpful than Roz. That is the reason why I can’t help but think she’s more of a jerk than Joyce in this scene. Roz’s technically right, her WORDS are right, but anyone can say right words, that is something that can be done by literally any person. Especially if you’re using them just to get in someone’s face.
Roz isn’t that kind of person though. We’ve seen her go up to Joyce and offer help and support when she saw she needed it, without asking prying questions or forcing her into anything she didn’t want. We’ve seen her campaigning and spreading awareness, she’s someone who believes in what she says. Whether or not you think her anger and bitterness towards Joyce is justified, you can’t deny she’s someone who takes an active role in issues she thinks are important.
And honestly, Roz hasn’t seen Joyce be charitable to anyone, all she’s seen are lectures on ‘your soul is like a flower and you’re ripping off it’s petals’, or accusations of being in a coven when she tries to reach out to her. Her perspective is completely different than ours.
tbh I personally put sheltering a person over “spreading awareness”.
Has anyone ever had their minds changed by a person standing on a sidewalk? I tried campaigning once. The only person who answered back to my cries of, “YOU WANT TO HELP GAY RIGHTS?” are people who already want to help gay rights (or people who sheepishly go, “I’d love to, I love gay people, I just need to get to work, but I don’t hate the gays, just to be clear” no strangers it’s okay I get it, I don’t think you’re homophobic, it’s okay). It’s for people who already agree with you but aren’t aware of certain laws that need passing or blocking.
… I kind of went on a tangent there.
Anyway, I wasn’t trying to imply Roz is COMPLETELY TERRIBLE. Yeah she handed Joyce a card. But would she take the same kinds of risks that Joyce did? And not risks that affect other people more than her like having a sex video that happens to be politically inconvenient for her sister, but actual personal risks with real benefits for others?
I guess I’m just a little defensive of Joyce because she does more than pretty much everyone but there’s always opportunities for people to snipe at her for her ATTITUDE or for BEING RAISED IN THE WRONG CULTURE and it’s like, are all these little “Take Thats” really doing anything other than making her feel guilty?
Joyce has always been terrible about accepting personal responsibility for the things she has said and done. If I had to guess, it might be from being taught by church that personal responsibility isn’t even a thing– it’s God and Satan acting through her. Roz is demanding that Joyce claim some responsibility for the hurtful things she has said and done: “Until today, the church was YOU!”
Hey Witty, that first link doesn’t work. Could you repost it? Because I really don’t remember this.
Joe is thinking “Should I start chanting ‘Now Kiss’?”.
And the he wisely shuts up.
And what we have learned today is that Joe can have better awareness than Roz.
Correction: We learned that Loe has situational awareness.
Or Joe, take your pick.
Thanks for clarifying. I was actually confused on that one. (of course, I was viewing it in the feed, so there was 0 context to it, but still)
Congratulations, Roz, you have demonstrated your ethical superiority over someone who was raised in an unethical environment and indoctrinated with beliefs which don’t match yours. Tell me, Roz, aside from Pro-Sex and liberal acceoptance of others, do you do any charity work? Do you help the poor? Do you do any of the things Joyce probably did in her free time? No? You mean you might not be PERFECT IN ALL THINGS? SHOCK.
Ah yes, the best way to bring everyone together is a good old fashioned “I TOLD YOU SO!” Nice, Roz.
I don’t think I would be adding much to the conversation by simply saying that Roz’s actions in this strip are cruel (which they are), I would like to take a moment to say that the Dumbiverse Roz seems to be quite a bit different from Walkyverse Roz. This Roz is pretty blatantly outspoken on her opinions of others, where as the previous Roz was a noted “phony” who tried to get on everyone’s good side. Either way, she’s certainly adept at pushing Leslie’s buttons.
I personally think that religion is a bit more complicated than many make it out to be. First of all, when one says “the Church”, one could be referring to Christianity in general or a specific denomination. One could be talking about popes, cardinals, and elders, or one could be talking about the everyday churchgoer. And that makes a lot of difference.
I like to believe that every human being has their own, personal “religion” of sorts – their own set of beliefs and ideals. Whether you believe in God or not, whether you believe in gay marriage or not, whether you believe that Michael Bay is the devil or not, etc. Even though Joyce attends the same Church as her parents, singing the same hymns, listening to the same sermons, and reading the same scriptures, she still has a different interpretation of her religion from her parents.
I know someone who identifies as Catholic, but is pro-choice, despite the pro-life stance commonly associated with Catholicism. One doesn’t invalidate the other; you don’t need to be one or the other. If you believe everything else and follow in all the other traditions that makes Catholicism what it is – such as Saints, transubstantiation (I hope I spelled that right), using rosaries. – it seems a little farfetched that one belief that differs from the majority would make someone not Catholic (Or at least a belief that doesn’t rank high on the list of Catholic beliefs – if you don’t believe in God, THEN you might want to reconsider identifying as Catholic).
I also don’t believe that religion is wrong, per se, but I don’t believe that there is ONE path. I believe that every person is entitled to their own beliefs and ideals. Go with what works for you. Whether you’re Catholic, Protestant, Quaker, Mormon, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic, Pastafarian… whatever! You do you. Just stay away from anything that involves human sacrifice. Or Michael Bay.
The Church with a capital ‘C’ is generally used to refer to all of Christianity. Especially true in Joyce’s situation, what with her being non-denominational.
A lot of the comments here (plus Roz herself, actually) remind me so strongly of how people react when they find out I was once a fundamentalist (and went to Bob Jones University, no less). I wrote about it a while ago here, but for those who would rather not click a link, here’s some of the more specific-to-this-comic-and-instance thoughts I had:
“You think we were weak? We were stupid? We had it coming? For what, for growing up in the wrong environment? Not defecting as children? Not knowing what wasn’t taught or available to learn without significant punishment & loss? Being afraid to lose everything once we knew? Nope. Take a seat. Shut your mouth. Enjoy your “objectivity” & absolute knowledge of how you’d react in situations you’ve never been in.”
(I fully admit to being really angry when I wrote this originally, but I still stand by it.)
As an ex-fundamentalist, I’m inclined to agree. The haughtiness of growing up in the “right” environment is rather eye-rolling.
I agree with Roz. I am a trans woman and I was expelled from home because my parents are fanatic catholics. Just because they “accept” me now doesn’t mean I’ll be cute with them. If not for some friends’ help, I’d be streetwalking for a living. No, I don’t think Joyce deserves any kind of sympathy. She still has a lot to learn about really “accepting” people and Roz has no reason to be easy on her.
Why can we say fuck but not bongo?
Because only one of those words is gender-charged and the alarming rate at which it was being used was making it fucking uncomfortable in here.
Isnt a bongo a drum?
Bongos: a musical instrument with a pair of circular surfaces you place your hands onto.
Also a slang term for female breasts or buttocks for similar reasons. (Learn something new every day. Today it was from Urban Dictionary.)
Also an animal, apparently.
Fair ‘nough. I shall refrain in the future.
That happens often here, and I sincerely appreciate the filter. It makes these already charged comments slightly less triggering.
And, frankly, it is making the archives, which I reread often, a much nicer place as well.
Wait, does that include the scene right outside of church when BILLIE says it? If not… CORRECTIVE EDITING! <delayed because I actually have to get to the page)
When I say “archives”, I, of course, mean the comment sections of them, not the comics themselves.
I shall have to correct this. And possibly go on an archive binge looking for every reference of that word.
Wow, really? Cool!
Wait, no more fun word-swapping? Aww. 🙁 Also, is this a temporary thing you can turn off whenever you want to, or will that turn all of our bongos into… *shudder*?
Apologies, I thought bongo was replacing “fuck” not conga.
Oh, hum. Too much coffee.
And because bongo is fun to say? (note: wasn’t tripping the filter here)
I wish more people were where I live, where the word has become gender neutral.
It can be used as an insult against a man, but it takes on different meanings– such as being weak or maudlin or otherwise unmanly. Does it lack these meanings where you live?
Only time it’s close to being gender neutral over here is when it’s used to describe complaining.
I want to thank you for this. I thought it was funny yesterday that I saw some people using that word about a character sitting in a gender studies class. But – no matter how silly and kind I tried to make my reply, I was worried that I’d just make things worse by pointing it out. Then I come back today to tons of bongos. Thank you.
Long time lurker, first time posting [woooo, (my) first post – sorry, Willis].
I think the only person that’s actually right in today’s strip is Leslie (shocking absolutely no-one). Roz does have a point, though the whole raging thing seems to come a bit out of left-field, and is certainly inappropriate for the setting and company. She also has a point concerning Dorothy (who so many people seem to be head over heels for in many strips, for reasons that completely escape me) – it strikes me that the correct response to some of the things Joyce has said isn’t to silently go along with it, as Dorothy so often has done, but to point out that she’s wrong, though not with the vitriol Roz shows here.
Ironically, I think the right way to approach the stupid ridiculous crap that so often comes out of Joyce’s mouth was the one used by the character that is supposedly the most inept at social interaction here (which is yet ANOTHER reason why I hope I got the gravatar thingie working correctly):
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/proven/
Also, I’m not a native speaker, so there might be a lot of wrong with my writing. Your forbearance, should you have it, is appreciated.
@JBento:Joyce’ appeal is similar to Archie Bunker’s. Yes, they hold a bunch of views that are either factually wrong or *merely* harmful (to the people they’re views of, to the people who interact with those people, to her own perceptions, etc.). But they’re a)absolutely honest b)don’t respond to being ‘beaten’ or ‘defeated’ with the violence the entities that oppressed them into these views use to enforce the meme c)are much more holding to the conditioning that the viewpoint came from that the view itself.
By way of example:Once Archie Bunker, well known bigot that happens to be as generically white as network TV could make him, was sitting at a table in a bar with a bunch of coworkers. He expressed that he couldn’t do something because he didn’t have an excuse to his wife for the missing time. A white coworker states that Bunker could say he was at his house and Bunker responds with “Sure, she’d believe that.”. The black coworker states that Bunker could say he was at his house and he responds with “She wouldn’t believe that.” The joke is that Bunker’s a racist and wouldn’t be at a black guys house…even though it’s being told by them all having a lunch together and Bunker treating them all as the people they are not by some artificially invoked status/caste.
Joyce is told Ethan is gay by Ethan. To Joyce, in Joyce’ world view, this means he like everyone is a fallen sinner in a fallen world he just has a grasp on which particular of God’s automatically righteous commandments he’s more tempted to break. Sure, we may want Dina to explain to Joyce that Ethan was exposed to a surplus of estrogen in gestation and this has resulted in some physiological differences including perceiving males as attractive rather than females. But the appeal of the Joyce character (particularly when juxtaposed with the Mary character)is tha instead of “SKREEE! You’re one of them!” or conspiritorial shunning she reacts with a)who she really is and that is an open to new people, see the good in them, genuinely kind person on her path to enlightenment b)the side of her upbringing a person like that would cling to, the message of love others that post-modern Christians claim Jesus spread. Is it the ‘right’ behavior…maybe not, considering Amber. But the character Joyce is more ‘noble’ as any “I define myself by my religion” character presented (her parents, Mary as opposed to Ethan who might define himself as gay rather than Jewish or Billie who wanted to define herself as cheerleader rather than Christian).
Now is Roz’ actions correct? For the characterization-Rox identifies as an activist exactly for these issues. She should call bullshit (whether it is or not) on all of this and that includes people like Joyce. Are Dorothy’s actions correct? For the characterization-Dorothy is a future president of America in her own mind, and that means understanding hipsters and their contributions with the same accord as ‘muricans. She should accept Dorothy as a friend and a good person and help her as such (advice, shoulder to cry on, etc.) while still being in command enough to point out when she’s trying to inflict herself on others like she did when Dorothy wanted to condemn her activities with Walky.
Now sure, Dumbing of Age’s use of Becky is sticking the landing like Dr. McNinja’s sticking the landing with the use of King Radical. But it does show that these characters have been built on a foundation & framework of decades in the making. And that includes their interactions.
You did just fine without me. *pats on back*
Roz needs to get her head out of her ass.
Congratulations Mr. Willis, on not only titling the strip with relelvance, but managing to also pre-emptively title the comments section.
Seriously though, barring a few threads, the comments provoked by this strip are really interesting. Many make good arguments to support a variety of views. I feel like I’ve learned something.
Roz and Mary are two sides of the same hate-filled coin.
To be fair, it seems plausible that Roz could learn from past mistakes (whether or not one considers this to be a mistake) and change. Mary, however…
Mary is to Joyce what Roz is to Dorothy.
Heeey discriminating against people and being mad about discrimination are not equivalent, even if you’re like SUPER RUDE about discrimination being abhorrent
This reminds me of the face scarring scenes of Inglourious Basterds.
That’s taking it a bit too far, to say the least
Bongo bongo bongo
Would Dorothy have ever connected the dots for Joyce? Would anyone but Roz?
Cruel, but I’m with Roz on this one.
Bongo.
As far as “connecting the dots” is concerned, Leslie did it, not Roz.
Roz just showed some of this hatred she seems to have unlimited resources of.
You see hatred, I see vehemence; strong feeling.
You’re with Roz on what? That Joyce shouldn’t be praised simply for changing her opinion? Yes, that is both fair and correct except that nobody has suggested anything of the sort unless there is a page missing somewhere.
Or is it the part where one good deed doesn’t erase the actions that have been perpetrated by the church since before she was even born and explicitly blaming her for it?
Joyce had not connected herself to her church and actions until Roz spoke out.
She had disconnected herself – sort of – from her church but she hadn’t fully explored the ramifications of her actions and decisions vis-a-vis Becky past and present until Roz, rather forcefully laid it out for her.
Not many people do. It’s only natural that people think their chosen beliefs and ideologies can only be a force good in the world rather than evil.
Some Christians blame their Church for problems like the soi-distant abuse and disconnect of problems with LGBT teens, for example, but conveniently leave themselves out of the equation even though it’s their membership – money in many cases – that sustains and helps whatever church they’re part of. In the previous strips, Joyce was part of the problem, not the solution.
It’ll be fun watching Joyce work out that her “god” is different to her church’s, um, versions of whatever god they promote … oh, bongo, bongo, bongo, the fireworks will fly!
Bongo bongo bongo out.
I’ve been actively, openly, and directly hurt by the catholic church in a very real way. And I don’t mean ‘the influence of the church as caused this environment in which I struggle’, I literally mean the church, as an organization, has looked at me, an individual who was struggling, and went out of their way to alienate me and keep me away from getting help. Consciously. I was literally rejected, I think I still have a letter somewhere about how I would be a ‘bad influence’ and therefore could not be allowed.
When I was 8. And in deep, deep trouble.
And when that happens, you get this…anger. This deep, intense anger. I don’t want to say anything negative about the catholic church, and that itself makes the anger worse. Because this is a cult (they call themselves that, guys) that made things SO MISERABLE for me. They do SO much harm, but for some reason I’m expected to just sit here and be accepting and tolerant and respectful.
And I just – I can’t. I don’t think that’s fair to me. I think that if you get hurt, you should be allowed to say whatever the hell you want about the thing that hurt you.
I just feel – silenced? Dismissed? Denied?
I’m sure there are other people out there in the same boat as me who understand. Many of them. I just wonder if there are people who’ve not had that experience who do.
There’s an important distinction between “the Church” and “some people who associate themselves with the Church”. Are you sure it was the former, and not the latter, which hurt you?
#notallcatholics?
It’s on the church to decide whether to endorse or excommunicate the people that harm others. It doesn’t matter if “the police” hurts an innocent person versus if “a dirty cop” hurts an innocent person– the former is still responsible for the latter. If a dirty cop hurts an innocent person, then the police has also failed to keep that dirty cop out of their force, failing to uphold the law among themselves just as those Catholics have failed to uphold their moral standards among themselves.
You’re absolutely right the Catholic Church as an institution and doctrine has to bear responsibility for the darker elements of what’s being said. However, JOYCE, is not responsible for any of this and Roz’s high horse regarding her is bullying. She sees someone emotionally vulnerable, traumatized, and hurting then uses it as a chance to prey on her. She’s EXACTLY like the people she condemns.
The people *are* the church.
If the church isn’t it’s people, who is it?
Alice is in the church, and Bob is in the church. Is Bob Alice?
Also: Alice says she’s in the church, Bob says he’s in the church, Alice is a good person, Bob eats babies. Who’s in the church?
You’re far too clever for me; but I notice you did not answer my question.
If people did not go to church, the church would not be a church.
Or, if you like, by associating yourself explicitly and vocally with a church you give explicit approval to the church’s goings on – like LGBT charities – but you do not give approval to Bob eating babies, assuming Bob isn’t a minister. Although you may want to report Bob to the police if you find him doing that.
As I said before, Joyce endorsed – unwittingly but a lack of knowledge or curiosity does not get you a get-out-of-jail free card – her Church’s endeavor. Hell, she did it with nearly frame until Dorothy and then Becky came along.
Now someone
The church is people who meet both of these two criteria:
1) they associate themselves with the church
2) they follow the ideology and rules of the church.
The most important rules of pretty much all the Christian denominations are these two:
“You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the greatest and the first commandment.
The second resembles it: You must love your neighbour as yourself.”
If someone doesn’t meet them, they can’t be considered a member of the Church.
I made a typo, I meant “If someone doesn’t follow them, they can’t be considered a member of the Church.”
Unfortunately, the list doesn’t end there.
Accepting God into your hearts is like…supporting animal rights.
But supporting PETA isn’t just about supporting animal rights. It’s about hyper-sexualizing women and fat-shaming and all sorts of horrible nasty things.
And if you give PETA even a penny, that’s what you’re supporting. Even if all you want to do help the baby bunnies.
Well, the Catholic Church is very regimented. Correcte if I’m wrong, but your superiors speak for the Church, and you have little recourse if one of them wrongs you.
I don’t mean to be a giant dick, but Joyce isn’t Catholic.
HOWEVER
I understand what you are saying. I get your pain. I can’t feel it in the way you do, because we are all unique with unique experiences. My dad’s friends have been molested, and he himself came very close to that same fate. That is inexcusable, and a main reason why both my mother and he have excommunicated.
But I do want to say this. On the topic of LGBTQ+ issues, people can change. And while you have every right to be full of fury, when people are showing signs of growth and change, being cruel to them is not okay. Being upset at the Church is one thing, being upset at individuals is another. Roz being angry at Joyce for growing is very strange and concerning–at least the way she went about it.
Hate the Church all you want, but when people are trying to change for the better, help them grow.
From Roz’s point of view (and, I wouldn’t be surprised, ok then’s, too), you can’t just separate the two, without actually separating the two.
It’s what Charles Willoughby has been trying to stress in these comments, too. So long as Joyce still views that structure, that society, as her church, she continues to support its abuses–just as a modern-day Catholic who happens to continue putting money in the plate is associating, voluntarily, with the protectors of child abusers and the opponents of women’s rights, worldwide. And being a moderate US Catholic who votes Democratic or even Green or Socialist doesn’t change the fact that every dollar in the plate is a few cents towards further atrocities.
Joyce isn’t a Catholic, but I can damn well guarantee that any church her parents would be comfortable in is also one that would turn away LGBT teens who didn’t want to be ‘corrected’ from their charities. And until she’s willing to say, “This is not a group I will stand with”, Roz has every right to call her out on the hypocrisy.
I see your point and through what you just said, I now get what that hypocrisy comment meant. Because Joyce said that she would be willing to take back her statement, she is being a hypocrite.
So because she’s aware that her comment is made in the heat of the moment, so she will need to reevaluate it later to make sure she knows what she really meant, she is a hypocrite? I don’t know… her way of saying “Yeah, I’m angry! This is what I think now, but I’m aware I may not be able to think right now” doesn’t seem hypocritical.
Uh, boy, 646 comments. And it’s not even 7am PST. Better start reading.
I bet all of them are well thought out and respectful to each other.
I’m CERTAIN you’re right. Just as I’m certain NONE of them are sarcastic.
Well, even if you were right, the paradox you just created crashed that statement.
The sarcasm is strong with this one.
Fuck people.
No seriously, fuck people. Most of you never had to do a damn thing your entire life to start believing the way you do, you just slid into it. Joyce had to get over intense sheltering and near brainwashing to get where she is. Do you not understand that most people won’t change strongly held beliefs even if they’re whacked over the head with them? But she IS. That makes her a good person more than anyone else who stands from their hill that they barely, if ever climbed, and blaming those who were born lower on the hill for starting out there.
Want to talk about hypocrisy now?
(P.S. Please somebody put this in nicer, more helpful terms. I’m too angry at all the unforgiving and self-satisfied viewpoints to be nice right now.)
Yesterday, Joyce expressed that the church was guilty of wrongdoing but she conveniently left out the detail that Joyce herself was ever guilty of same. Roz is (yes, perhaps too angrily) connecting the dots that Joyce’s actions until today have been exactly the same as the church’s actions.
Because she wasn’t guilty of anything. Did Joyce throw people to the streets?
Did she refuse to help a person because of their orientation? Last time I checked, no and no.
Yesterday: “…Or they will be taken in, but on the condition that they be rehabilitated.” Joyce is doing this exact thing to Ethan, and until recently has merrily decried homosexuality as a sin that should be corrected. She should acknowledge that she is doing wrong, but her wording yesterday evades her own personal responsibility in it. Roz is reminding Joyce to judge not lest she be judged, in a way: Joyce should judge herself just as much as she is judging the church. It’s not really personal growth if you don’t realize your own behavior needs to change!
If new knowledge doesn’t cause Joyce to make different decisions in the future, it’s not an epiphany– it’s just trivia. Roz wants to make sure Joyce can make the connection, because Roz has not seen Joyce’s progress related to Becky. She hasn’t seen a lot of Joyce’s experiences! But it’s important to remember that Roz ultimately wants to help, not hurt.
Keep in mind that the situation with Ethan is a bit more… complex. Yes, Joyce mistakenly believes that she can “change” Ethan. Yet there are other factors… she also feels “safe” around him (as Amazigirl figured out), and Ethan himself wants to avoid the stigma of being gay.
So, Joyce is still wrong, but perhaps not as wrong as she could have been. And even before Becky arrived, she seemed to be having some second thoughts about her relationship with Ethan.
The point wasn’t “exactly how wrongly is Joyce treating queer people?”
It’s “Joyce calls out the church for treating queer people wrongly but does not appear to call out herself, implying a lack of self-awareness that allows her to perpetuate her own wrongdoing.” Roz doesn’t necessarily know for sure that Joyce HAS done wrong, but their every past interaction makes it very easy for Roz to guess. Roz appears to have gotten through to Joyce, though, judging by Joyce’s expression in the last panel.
Joyce hasn’t spoken to Ethan yet today. I hope she does soon.
I dunno. There’s a side of my family that’s very religious, and for a while, they really tried their best to “brainwash” me with their beliefs.
I went along with it for a while, until I was 12 and realized this religion business was totally ridiculous. I walked out. I was 12. (There are still people in my extended I already could think for myself.
I guess some people simply don’t like to question the world around them. It’s more comfortable to blissfully go along with the flow.
I’ve never been one for comfort.
I seriously doubt that someone with an upbringing as rigid as Joyce’s could rebel at age 12. All indications are that IU represents the first place she’s had some freedom from the clutches of her parents.
Well, I guess the background does change things… Most of the people here aren’t religious so those religious people in my family were the ones that stood out. But still.
My cousin still claims out loud that the earth is 4000 years old and that Satan is beind science and the education system. I guess it’s beyond hope for some people.
I wish it weren’t so
I like where this is going.
To hell in a handbasket?
Huh. Do you think that God may actually wear a read hood and that there may be a generation between him and Satan? I mean seriously, why else would Earth be going to Hell in a handbasket if no one was receiving it.
*facepalm* red hood. Not read hood. */facepalm*
I think there’s also the fact Roz doesn’t really show any inclination outside of her chosen expertise. When has Roz does anything outside of championing “pro-sex”? Joyce frequently talks about charity work, helping people, and is SHELTERING A LESBIAN IN HER APARTMENT. What, EXACTLY, is Roz doing to help the gay cause? Or hell, the world at large, other than shooting her mouth off? Actions speak louder than words w/ Joyce.
Sorry for the caps. My bad.
Well, so far she’s educated Leslie on the horrors that homosexuals go through at the hands of unrepentant monsters like Joyce and the Westboro Baptist Church for which she is apparently to blame if that last panel is any indication.
you’re right that roz basically only does sex pos activism, and all she’s done other than giving out condoms for planned parenthood was entirely framed in her sister’s political presence, rendering the message rather meaningless imo. she might do more stuff away from the fourth wall or she might just think that being there for moral support for gsrm when they need it and calling out people who aren’t is enough ally work in a world that normally won’t do even that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Excepting, of course, Roz doesn’t know anything ABOUT Joyce other than she’s a fundamentalist. She gets to basically say, “you’re a biogoted horrible person, unlike me” excepting, of course, Joyce is sheltering a gay youth in her apartment. Roz is probably not doing anything similar. Now, Roz can’t know that’s what Joyce is doing, but she’s shooting her mouth off about someone just because Joyce superficially fits the stereotypes in her head.
She is sheltering a gay youth… While in a relationship with a self denying gay man, whom she supports in his efforts to remain in the closet. Roz hands out condoms on her free time, and I am going t go out on no limb at all and saying that if her closest friend in the world came to her in trouble, Roz would help. Joyce doesn’t get bonus points for helping her best friend in the world, she is just not getting penalized for turning her away.
I have a close family member who, when he gets into a disagreement with someone, decides he already has an intimate understanding of their viewpoint and starts angrily rebutting arguments and defending against personal attacks that nobody has made. I can’t unsee that behavior in Roz right now.
Re-reading this, I think a vital point Roz was making is that, while Joyce has changed her mind, it’s less of an accomplishment and more catching up with basic decent human values (and I know to Joyce it’s been a struggle, but to Roz, and a whole lot of us commentators, it’s as simple a question as possible). She even outright says “until Today, that was you”, meaning she knows Joyce’s views have changed, but that doesn’t exclude her from what she was thinking not a month ago, or the institution she was supporting.
The emphasis however is on “That was you.” The letters are thicker in those three words to point out that that is what Roz is trying to push through. Also, the institution she was supporting was only for as long as she believed the lies that those institutions were helping people, told to her by people she’s never before had a reason to distrust.
Roz is not helping. Confronting Joyce on her past opinions in this manner is not only wrong, it could actually do more harm than good.
I do think Roz is being a jerkass, but that doesn’t make her wrong. Where does Joyce get off suddenly dissociating from an institution she’s readily supported all her life? Suddenly now she’s decided that the injustices to the LGBT community matter because they’ve entered her worldview? How many people has she ignored up until now?
What, according to you, was Joyce supposed to do instead?
Learn, obviously. If I haven’t been clear: Joyce’s rejection of her religion’s bigotry and horror at the realities LGBT kids have faced is a positive development. However, Joyce’s character development, as invested in it as we are, doesn’t matter to Roz, or really to Becky or Ethan or anyone who’s been kicked out on the streets by their parents. Joyce learned what most of us here already know. Why should Roz be happy that the last horse crossed the finish line?
Because every person that understands, and learns matters.
She really shouldn’t say these things to Joyce. She has no right to scream her down. At this point, she just wants to make Joyce feel bad, and that’s not okay.
She might think that it’s unfair that Joyce gets recognition for learning something she knew a long time, but that doesn’t give her the right to be a jerk about it.
To put it in your metaphor: every horse that makes it over the finish line matters. And later is better than never.
But she has been learning… no?
“Learn, obviously. If I haven’t been clear.”
You do realise that this is exactly what Joyce has done, right? She HAS learned. The school year has only lasted 4 weeks, and in those 4 weeks she has survived an attempted rape, met several friends of different sexualities, religions and races, and is sheltering her gay friend from danger. She has never been confronted with people in difficult situations before and as such, hasn’t been able to learn until now, but she is. learning. now.
I hate the idea that anyone would criticize Joyce for coming to this realisation now. She’s young. She’s privileged. And this is the first time she’s ever been forced to check that privilege and honestly, she’s dealing with it pretty well. Yes, she was FUNDAMENTALLY wrong about a lot of things, but she was working with only what her family and her church had told her all her life. Now she has the tools to educate herself she is.
You’re absolutely right. It doesn’t erase the wrong Joyce has done in the past, but if she is to be confronted on it, it should be by someone she can trust who wants to help her change, someone who can help her understand why it was wrong and the damage her prejudice might have caused. Not by someone who is just using her as a punchingbag.
The thing is, has Roz caught up on any other values BUT Sex positivism? Just curious if she does any charity work, helping the poor, or other stuff other than helping sexuality. It’s important, I think, since we got into a discussion about it on RPG.net that you can be above the curve in some issues and retrograde in others.
If I was a student in that classroom, I’d probably be an ass and try to start a slow clap.
Something else that has gone uncommented on is Dorothy’s “let a person learn.” It’s a nice moral that I think we can all agree with, but Dorothy is speaking from a perspective of white privilege, and has never had to face Joyce or the Church’s views on the evils of sexuality. It’s easy for Dorothy to be happy that Joyce is learning, but should the same be expected from, say, Becky? Ethan? Billie? Should they be happy that the little fundie girl finally decided to stop viewing them as evil?
If nothing else Dorothy has a better sense than Roz when to take the discussion. In the middle of class, as the teacher repeatedly asks you to be silent, might not be it.
Interesting choice of examples – both Ethan, Billie and Becky know Joyce pretty well and are fully aware of her attitude, and they deal with it in far more constructive ways than Roz. In fact, speaking of privileges, which of those three would you think would be happy with Roz for exploding at Joyce on their behalf.
I certainly don’t think Dorothy is wrong and I agree with her 100%. I just think it’s unfair to expect other people to readily subscribe to the same viewpoint, especially if they’ve had to face prejudice that Dorothy has been fortunate enough to avoid.
Ethan is actively trying to bury his sexuality, and Billie doesn’t seem to consider herself Bisexual, with how she describes “It’s not weird to like girls sometimes” making me think she considers herself “straight with an exception” like Robin did in Shortpacked for a while. Joyce outright told Becky she mattered more, but did she say that to Becky, her best friend, or to Becky, the young woman who was hoisted out of her school by stringent religious viewpoints? Would she have done the same if it wasn’t Becky who came out to her? Joyce has, not necessarily backtracked on Becky, but in a way she showed her support wasn’t as strong as she had initially shown it to be.
Given how Ethan and Billie view their sexuality, I doubt they’d be happy with Roz flipping out on Joyce, if only because they like Joyce more than Roz. But if Ethan came out to a loving family, if his life wasn’t uprooted because of how people reacted to his sexuality, would he be so eager to bury it? Becky, I’m not too sure yet. The last we saw her they parted on frosty terms.
When it comes to Dorothy I think she tried to diffuse the hostile situation more than anything else (much as Leslie, but without the authority/responsibility of a teacher). If the conversation had been held in a more constructive setting I don’t think she would be so quick to jump in. (Roz after class: “Hey, Joyce, about your speech I think you should know that I think…”)
As for how Billie and Ethan views their sexuality… isn’t that the whole point? They have a certain attitude to their sexuality, the know about Joyce and they have chosen to deal with her in ways that doesn’t include Roz-like outbursts. Look at Billie’s combination of gentle coaxing of Joyce “everyone tries it sometimes” and deflection of any power Joyce could have over her “she just has the gay panic”. Billie has made it perfectly clear to Joyce that Joyce has no say in Billie’s sexuality (as she has done to Becky, for that matter), and then they kept on being friends (or shower buddies or whatever they are). That was Billie’s choice. She could have said “fuck off, fundie”, but she didn’t. Because that was not the way she chose to deal with it.
Ethan… you know, I call mulligan on that. There will be a confrontation between them pretty soon. I will have something of interest to say then.
Becky has shown that she is perfectly capable of dealing with Joyce herself. I really don’t think she wants and outsider doing it for her. And what does Roz attitude to Joyce say about Becky? Is she absolved of her part of the church discrimination by being lesbian herself or did she come out “too late”? “Gee, Roz, thanks for telling me that the organization I been a part of my whole life discriminates against people like me. I wouldn’t know anything about that myself, of course.”
Ethan is definitely going to change his tune eventually (given his blatant attraction to Jacob, and I’m pretty sure he’s into Danny). What I was getting at, however, is that Ethan views his sexuality as inherently negative. Something that caused him to be ostracized by his high school peers, that made him lose the esteem of his family, and worst of all, separated him from Amber. He thinks that, if he were straight, everything would be fine and he could take care of Amber for the rest of his life. That’s why I think he’s been okay with dating Joyce, and conversely, if he came out to a loving family, I don’t think he’d be willing to put up with her.
That’s actually a really interesting point about Becky. She’s clearly rejected the bigoted views of her church, but if I recall actually got up in arms when Joyce told her she was dating a “non-Christian.” It’s possible she may still hold onto some of the prejudices she’s built up but has yet to confront.
You are right about Ethan The reason why I’m careful with discussing him and Joyce is that, while there is so, SO much that is wrong with their relationship the discussion tends to be a bit polarizing about who’s fault it is.
I think Ethan is the real problem – he put Joyce in a position where she had to actively reject him or enable his self-sabotaging behavior, but mostly I think that they have not been in a relationship long enough for them to realize how problematic it is yet, and I want to other shoe to drop before I preach from that box any further.
But come to think of it, we have already seen how Ethan reacted to someone calling Joyce out for her part of their relationship. I don’t think he would react more positively to Roz.
Thank you Roz, I think she gets it now Roz, this has been a great learning experience for Joyce, Roz.
Well, Roz can’t really know that, can she? I don’t blame her for trying to make sure. When you’re trying to break through that fundie shell, relentless and aggressive challenging can be very good. Yes, Roz is a jerk, but between her and Mike I think Joyce stands a good chance of learning something.
Unless, of course, it causes her incredible emotional distress and depression. Joyce is not in the strongest state of mind given recent trauma and now she’s being bullied by a bully hiding behind her values to maker feel better. Roz is no different than Mary.
It’s usually distressing and depressing to learn important things, especially important things about yourself. I’m not defending Roz or saying everyone should be more like her, I’m saying Joyce is lucky. Maybe she has a few sad years ahead of her, at the most extreme, but she’ll end up a bigger, more free person who will probably think it was worth it.
I think the biggest thing to learn from Roz is she’s so woefully IGNORANT, that it’s appalling she gets praise. Roz talks about sexual freedom and the repressiveness of the atmosphere on campus as well as the bias against homosexuals. Which, okay, great point. Joyce has suffered an attempted rape and is sheltering a gay youth. Roz is beating her down because it makes her feel better without knowing a damn thing about her. It’s funny, but the character she most resembles is Mary, because she champions “good” to make other people feel evil. **** her.
You’re right. Roz doesn’t know the slightest thing about her – except what Joyce has told Roz. She knows that Joyce is an evangelical, fundamentalist Christian. She knows Joyce is a dyed-red Republican, and aggressively sex-negative. She knows Joyce just managed to figure out something that Roz thinks should be obvious – that Joyce’s viewpoints, and how common they are, have CONSEQUENCES that go far, far beyond a few hurt feelings.
Roz’s ignorance of the entire set of circumstances surrounding Joyce – an ignorance that comes from an actual lack of available information, unlike Joyce’s which comes from not opening her eyes and seeing what the world looks like – is what makes her rant something I can’t condemn outright. Yes, she’s saying the exact wrong thing at the exact wrong time, but coming from the data pool she has, the thing she’s saying would seem RIGHTEOUS.
Very apt comparison.
Well said. Righteous fury isn’t always the answer – a lesson Roz and Mary both have yet to learn.
Damn Roz, maybe take it down a notch. Though she’s got a point about Dorothy.
You mean, of course, that Dorothy thinks showing she’s a human being as an atheist and still a good person ISN’T working?
Dorothy isn’t calling out Joyce’s bullshit.Not saying she has to go full Roz but often she doesn’t want to step on her toes
She’s got a point about Dorothy in an alternate timeline where her presumptions about Dorothy’s effects on Joyce are true, maybe.
She’s got a point about Dorothy in a new, exciting reality where the punching bag personality she invented to tear down actually resembles Dorothy.
Shockingly, it turns out that showing your basic humanity when you’re a minority to people tends to change people more than yelling at them. We’ve SEEN it with Joyce and Dorothy. Roz, of course, isn’t interested in helping Joyce. She’s interested in hurting her so she can feel self-righteous.
It’s bullying pure and simple. Roz is fed up with the injustices and hurt and self-righteousness of the christian fundamentalists and most of all she’s fed up with her own impotence at changing their minds. Now, she’s given an opportunity she hasn’t had before, a fundie in an unusual vulnerable position, and she grabs her chance to lash out all her anger at once to hurt the object of her rage, blaming her for all the wrongs she’s witnessed at the hands of the church and making her feel responsible for it.
In other words, compensating for her own frustration by hurting someone else.
Trolldrool’s analysis is damned near perfect.
Hear, hear
This is a good point too. I think Roz is right that it takes more than this to be on the “good” side, but right now her reaction is basically just fury at the prospect someone like [strong]Joyce[/strong] might ever make the claim.
“If you want to see someone’s true character, give them power.” (Any amount will do.)
Slightly modified from the Lincoln.
Turns out a lot of people will start “punching down” just as eagerly and viciously, if not more so, to “defend” their newly elevated position. It’s almost like pack dominance behavior is wired into us or something…
Almost… almost like we EVOLVED that trait over millions of years before becoming what we are now.
Right. And that last part is what gives us the ability, now, to think and to change. (But many would rather not, ’cause those are hard.)
(Actually, I was mostly just picking on Joyce. Her actions start here:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/feathers/ and go to
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/proven/ to
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/02-guess-whos-coming-to-galassos/inerrant/ to
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/03-up-all-night-to-get-vengeance/stamina/
and finally to what was apparently the last time we saw Joyce and Dina together: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/introductions/ )
Yeah, I know. I should give Joyce a break, just like I am arguing for. But this is different than bashing on her… I think? Okay, it’s bad. But still, Joyce will have to learn to accept evolution at some point!
Yes, I’m aware this is mostly links. But seriously, this is at least a tiny bit pathetic.
Link spammed. You will see my post if Willis approves it.
Calling anyone’s actions in this series “pure and simple” is the first sign that you’re missing something. Seriously. Outside of Blaine and Faz, the cast has remarkable depth, and assuming that any single element sums them up is doing both the character and their author a disservice.
“Showing your basic humanity” is certainly not a loaded statement suggesting that minorities play nice and not be “rude” when shitty things constantly happen to them.
Perpetuating the same abusive behavior against someone else, when one has the opportunity to, is certainly understandable and satisfying, but does it actually help anything? Is it meant to? Is there anything that can be done to improve the overall situation?
Yet who did Joyce go to for advice? The fact that she’s even consulting an atheist is HUGE, in my mind.
Let those without self-righteous asshattery cast the first stone.
Yes. Roz is technically right. She’s also tearing down someone trying to grow right when they’re the most vulnerable.
The most likely reaction is to make Joyce shatter and hate herself, or to retreat into the fundamentalist womb she’s comfortable in, that she was just beginning to question and break out of.
Since Joyce is a sex-changed avatar for Willis, we know she’ll be one of the few who manage to avoid either long-term, although probably endure the first for a while….luckily.
I’m a little older than many of you. (Born in 1953). If you don’t think by the time you reach your sixties,there won’t be SEVERAL things you think are culturally correct NOW that you will realize are totally unjust and bigoted THEN…you’re all in for a surprise.
i’m just gonna say, and it may have been said before; roz, you don’t know if joyce knew the church had that segregating attitude and effect, i certainly didn’t know until way after i came out to myself. only recently did i learn that homeless gsrm fact, and i’m a 20 years old sexual-romantic minority ffs. it’s easy to shrug off phobic microaggressions as jokes or ignore phobic abuse when you’re not the target of it. sometimes even when you are. get over the fact that people are ignorant kthx.
Man, I’m definitely also feeling Roz on this.
Not because Joyce herself necessarily deserves vitriol, but there’s totally a thing where we’re culturally much quicker to sympathize with someone like Joyce (who’s been unwittingly part of an oppressive system but just feels so guilty about it!) than we are with someone like, say, Leslie (who we just saw kinda tacitly downplay her own issues to avoid making the class uncomfortable).
It’s a pattern that’s really easy to get frustrated with, as you keep seeing people fidget uncomfortably when the subject of say, rampant homelessness among LGBT youth comes up, and then explode with sympathy over the feelings Joyce is having!
(Yeah, Roz snapped before such an explosion of sympathy actually happened, and it’s definitely not entirely cool to go off on someone in the middle of class! But there’s a lot of feelings expressed in the comments here about her being “obviously unfair and unhelpful” that just boggle me a little.)
. . .
And I think there IS an important lesson for Joyce here – not the “people will still resent you!” one, but the one where “it’ll be very easy for you to make it stop being about them and stop being about you, and a big part of being a good ally is about letting it be about them.”
Which isn’t something that gets said a lot. We like our redemption arcs! Not so much the ones where our protagonist learns that they shouldn’t think of themselves as the main character in someone else’s story.
I’ve been close to Joyce’s shoes – I left evangelical Christianity younger, and more due to study than to personal experiences (I measured the distance to a nearby galaxy through direct observations, which sort of killed the “six thousand year old universe” thing dead). I’ve also been in Roz’s – in the modern world. where the Internet is a thing and there are people literally begging to educate you about the issues faced by minorities, there’s little excuse for not knowing what’s going on and even less for not showing basic empathy for those who are being attacked by members of a group you identify with.
Roz has a point. Roz has a HUGE point. Roz is also expressing her point at the worst possible moment.
Roz doesn’t know that because she lives neither in Joyce’s brain nor her room.
Lots of different sides, here… with seemingly most people agreeing that Roz is just being mean. I commented fairly early that I don’t disagree with her, and am inclined to be on her side. But concerning Joyce directly… I think she’s learning an important lesson about forgiveness. I don’t mean in the sense that she’s going to be forgiving Roz…
Joyce has been doing a lot of forgiving. She wanted to keep hanging out with Dorothy, so she found a way to forgive her atheism. “She’s still a good person…” She searched through her Bible looking for loopholes and found, “You know… maybe Homosexuality ISN’T a sin! Good news, Becky!” She did that, so it was easier to forgive her best friend from home. Thing is…
No one was asking for forgiveness. When you “give” someone your forgiveness, you’re still saying that they did something very wrong. Dorothy, Becky, nor anybody else that Joyce has “forgiven”… feels they’ve done anything wrong. So, it’s insulting to give someone forgiveness, when they haven’t asked for it, nor felt like they needed it. It doesn’t make the forgiver a decent person… it just makes them judgmental. (And we’ve already seen plenty of evidence that Joyce is very judgmental… “Premarital Hanky Panky!!”) (The only exception would be her forgiveness of Ethan for being gay… because he clearly doesn’t want to be gay, and is pretty self-loathing over it. Once he comes to terms with it… despite having already been outed, then he won’t need anyone’s forgiveness, and will probably be embarrassed by that.)
Here… she’s realizing that she can no longer have the higher moral ground. She’s not in a position to do any forgiving… but she needs to ASK for forgiveness, herself. Because she has been in the wrong, more than she has been admitting to herself. I know there are comments pointing out that she’s been a minor under her parents care… so her culpability may be minimal. But then, can we blame her parents? They were raised that way, too. And their parents, and so on. Yet, we know kids do wrong things all the time, and need forgiveness. So, if Joyce ever thought or voiced that homosexuality is wrong and evil (which she has), then she is culpable. So, she needs to ask forgiveness of Becky.
Yes, since Joyce is a new young adult… and is learning, she can probably get our forgiveness. But until she admits that wrongdoing she was a part of… that forgiveness will mean nothing.
Your point about forgiveness is soooooo important!
Aw, thank you.
Thank you for deleting those.
Bongo bongo bongo bongo bongo….
(I’m not trying to type the b-word… I’m writing out the alternate word for a drum you hit with your hands. Because I like the word.) 🙂
Bongo bongo bongo bongo
I can understand roz’s anger, but shutting down someone who is TRYING to learn and grow is the kind of shit that benefits literally no one.
I pretty much don’t give one single shit about Joyce’s feelings at all in this scene. Yes, she’s learning, and we as an audience can see that and sympathize with her, but to Roz she’s been this sexist, homophobic person who pretty much called her a scarlet woman and most likely spouts closeminded hurtful rhetoric on the regular. This is a classroom and a learning environment and Roz’s outburst isn’t helpful in a classroom setting, but I sympathize with her and her anger. I was Joyce once too (though nowhere near this extent) and probably could have used someone slapping in the face with some rightful anger, and even if it isn’t useful for Joyce and it isn’t helpful for Joyce, so what? Not everything has to be about Joyce. Roz can be pissed off about the heavy systems of oppression that up until now Joyce has been happily complicit in and let off some steam. Roz can be mad and bitter and DONE with people handholding closeminded people and expending energy on teaching moments and be impatient with progress, impatient and angry with waiting for an epiphany, and angry that Joyce’s minor step forward is applauded. Roz isn’t necessarily kind, or nice, or helpful to Joyce here, but she doesn’t have to be.
Nore does anyone, at any time, have to not be an asshole. Roz is having a temper tantrum, distespecting everyone present, if not just the teacher, and needs to shut the hell up. She’s badmouthing churches, and christians, as a WHOLE.
Nope. She’s badmouthing Christians who act like Joyce always has around her, and churches like the one Joyce came from. Frankly, given what I’ve seen of her parents, I’m comfortable with the idea that they have earned some badmouthing.
That said, you’re right about the timing, particularly once Leslie tried to rein her in. Her tirade should’ve been done at that point, if not before, and kudos to the prof for giving her the boot.
I don’t think the classroom was the right place to say it but I gotta agree with Roz. I mean not long ago Joyce was calling her tainted, she does need to realize that she’s done some crappy shit as part of the church as well.
I like roz and i understand her anger but that was not the time nor the place to say what she said, nor in the manner she said it. although im glad to see more of Roz and hope to see her more
The amount of commentary and controversy is, once again, testament to the quality of Willis’s writing.
I believe a “chapeau” is in order.
I’m interested to see Roz “develop” a bit more. At this point, she doesn’t seem to have changed much from when the comic started (to be fair she hasn’t had as much screen time either).
And that’s not to say that what she’s saying and doing here is wrong. Just curious if she’ll always be this character who sort of comes in and challenges the others.
Geeeeeeez, Roz! How old is Joyce, again? When did you expect her to have this epiphany? When she was fifteen? In homeschool? Was I that self-righteous when I was eighteen?
Geeeeeeez, Dorothy! How old is Roz, again? When did you expect her to have this epiphany? When she was fifteen? In a house where she was regarded as nothing but a political prop for her older sister? Was I that self-righteous when I was eighteen?
(Sorry, but the “she’s young” excuse constantly being trotted out for Joyce but never for Roz is beginning to annoy. They’re all young, inexperienced and ignorant, largely the product of their environment prior to coming to school. If that gets Joyce a pass for her hurtful comments, it should apply to Roz as well.)
Leslie is right to intervene and call Roz out.
But to all the people saying Roz is actively harming her cause by calling Joyce out here….. >.> if Joyce’s will to learn better is so fragile that someone being “mean” to her will cause her to clam back up and dig into her previous stance…
she wasn’t gonna learn anyways.
(Joyce has a LONG and rocky road ahead of her — people think Roz calling her out is hard? Wait till she has to deal with her family. Joyce cares about people and under all the dogma she IS a good person because she’s trying to learn better. But her precious church has hurt people and SO HAS SHE. And learning better is going to mean owning that.)
But what Roz is doing isn’t calling her out. It’s bullying. That’s destroying someone’s selfesteem and pushing them back down the hole of ignorance they’ve just started to crawl out of. I say this because I’ve been there. I’ve been bullied into a self-loathing pit it took me almost ten years to get back from and I’ve inflicted pain and suffering on others as a form of self medicating empowerment by becoming a bully myself. Everything I endured and did to others, I see in Roz’ actions on this page. It cannot be defended and it cannot be excused.
Roz is telling Joyce that all the horrible atrocities commited by people who happen to believe what she believed in is on her hands as well, and to top it all off, convincing her that she is responsible for it. She’s not teaching Joyce a lesson, she’s crushing her emotionally and that doesn’t help. Trust me. Bullying doesn’t get the message through, it overwhelms people with guilt and shuts out everything else.
But what Roz is doing isn’t calling her out. It’s bullying…. for the record, I’m not disagreeing that this is something Joyce needs to be confronted with, but this is not the time and definitely not in any way, shape or form, the correct way to do it.
^ THIS.
For the record, I’m not disagreeing that this is something Joyce needs to be confronted with, but this is not the time and definitely not in any way, shape or form, the correct way to do it.
I don’t comment on here, but damned if she isn’t right on a couple of fronts. Friends enabling the ignorance of their friends instead of calling them out on it, not to mention that one little concession of humanity and compassion does not make her some hero.
So from her standpoint, yeah, I can understand why Roz is so pissed off at Joyce. And you see how quiet Joyce is? It’s because she knows Roz is right.
What makes her such an asshole though is that nobody else said anything about her being a hero. Nobody in there was praising Joyce for what she said.
This comic reminds me of a now-disowned cousin who would drive up to family Christmas parties to just yell at us all for being Christian. (And at me for not being a Christian but “tacitly supporting their ignorance”)
Roz is a jerk. I hope she gets kicked out of class, at least for the day. I know too many “open minded” people like her who are just as intolerant as some religious folks, just on the opposite side of the opinion spectrum.
If the religious views are reprehensible, or support reprehensible acts, they deserve to be ridiculed.
I have mixed feelings about this. Does it makes sense if I say that I feel like this was something that Joyce needed to hear, but that no one should have said?
I see what you’re saying. It’s not that no one should have said it, it’s just that it should have been worded so much better. A simple ‘check your privilege’ does not need to be a slap to the face.
Wow, Roz; this isn’t on. Yes, Joyce may have been in the wrong and she may have said a lot of things that were wrong, but she wouldn’t have honestly thrown someone out on the street. Organised religion has it’s faults, but not all practitioners of that religion 100% have the same faults. And though it would have been alright to say to Joyce ‘sure, NOW you get it’ it isn’t right to be so cruel about it. She is TRYING to correct herself; she has realised what is wrong, and is learning. That should be ENCOURAGED.
Yeah, I can’t defend Roz right now, even though she’s occasionally been helpful in the past (offering Joyce counseling info, being sex positive). I know it’s difficult to have an academic discussion about a topic that you are emotionally attached to, but she is not being helpful in any way, shape or form. She’s being downright rude. Look at her language in this strip – she refers to Joyce as Dorothy’s “little friend”, as if Joyce is stupid, when all Dorothy asked her to do was respect that Joyce was learning about this topic for the first time, which is NORMAL, given that this is the fourth week of an INTRO LEVEL gender studies class. Nobody asked her to treat Joyce as a “hero” for having an epiphany, they asked her to respect another student’s learning in a classroom. Roz doesn’t know Joyce well enough to know that “UNTIL TODAY, THAT WAS YOU”. She knows Joyce is religious and doesn’t believe in pre-marital sex, and that’s all. Her behavior is really presumptuous and really holier-than-thou (which is funny, given that this is Roz we’re talking about).
Well she probably finds it disgusting that Joyce had no problem yelling “PRE MATURNAL HANKY PANKY” at Joe, telling /HER/ Her soul was “stripped down to the roots” and essentially saying they were both doomed to hell because HER beliefs said so… and then turned around and were angry at said beliefs when someone SHE likes is at risk at Damnation ya know?
Not an excuse, but I can see why she attacked with such venom.
My compliments, Willis. I know others have written similar things, but I’ll add my voice to the chorus: your comic definitely touched off probably the single most interesting and thought-provoking comments section I’ve seen on the internet in a long time. Maybe ever.
That’s probably one of the things about this page everyone can agree on. It feels odd getting so passionate about something happening in a comic, which definitely speaks volumes for Willis’ writing.
Hear, hear
Good discussion all around (and good moderation). Polarizing subject, polarizing discussion, a polarizing character get’s a verbal smackdown from another polarizing character… and still we manage to keep it constructive.
Good work everyone, especially all of you who I don’t agree with.
Heck, I stopped commenting for a while and just watched the comment ticker go up. And up and up.
Part of me is just sorta glad to see Joyce getting a bit of a verbal slap, it ALMOST makes up for that physical punch she had Mike do to Joe Unprovoked.
I mean Roz is going about this all wrong and being a total butthole, Even JOYCE gave herself a out “I will tread back on this later but FOR NOW Hanky panky you church”
Joyce needed to be aware that she seems to only care when she is affected…but she needed a gentle shake or a light pap
NOT A PUNCH TO THE FAAAAACE.
That awareness is coming regardless. Between Ethan, Becky, Dorothy and virtually everybody else around her, it’s inevitable. Even Joe will do his part. In his own way.
Joyce is rather masterfully wrapped up in a web that spells “evolve or die!”
-snirk- THat just reminds me of when she had to get the shot because the flu evolves while not believing in evolution XD
Except that she’s shown a remarkable ability to only change the bare minimum that is needed to accept her friends. Talk to her right now about Transgender issues. Then tell her about her sister Jocelyn. Then talk about Transgender issues again.
The difference between the two convos is the one that Roz picked up on–Joyce only changes, hell, only challenges her own views when forced to by outside circumstance.
Well, who doesn’t? I think just about everyone is influenced by some outside force. If it challenges ones views to get them to think differently is that really a bad thing? Influence, the drive to do something alternative from your personal status quo doesn’t usually come from within. You have to look at yourself from the outside before you can even start changing in. Sure, Joyce has got a long long LONG way to go, but she’s at least MAKING a way to go. Some progress, no matter how small, is always better than none at all or ever.
*nod*
You know what? They’re both right and they’re both wrong.
Joyce is right for becoming more accepting of people for all of their faults and differences, but her naive mindset of trying to “right” them is what puts her in the wrong. She’s fairly accepting of people’s differences, even when she doesn’t agree with them. In other words, she’s not Mary. She’s willing to help to a fault. She’s got a battle ahead of her and it’s not going to be pretty.
Roz is right for calling out Joyce on her seemingly hypocritical ways of trying to have things both ways when that can’t work. It’s true that the church she was brought up in all her life has encouraged her to ostracized those whom they deem undesirable and because of this, Joyce has indirectly supported their ousting of LGBT children or trying to “fix” them for being “wrong”. Now, here’s how Roz is wrong:
1. She intentionally put Joyce on the spot in a public setting. Roz has been fairly well known to be outspoken about her views and she’ll use anyone as her pedestal. She put Joyce down to boost herself up.
2. She’s doing exactly what Joyce did: passing judgement before understanding. She only knows Joyce on a surface level, while we the readers and those closest to her know all manner of depths that she has and have watched her grow. Roz hasn’t seen any of this, leaving her to assume that Joyce hasn’t changed since day one. She’s gone ahead and compartmentalized her as someone who’s incapable maturing.
3. She undermines the progress that Joyce has made thus far. Rather than celebrate her now realizing the world isn’t black and white, Roz goes out of her way to belittle Joyce’s realization as elementary understanding. “The simplest of epiphanies”?! THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS A “SIMPLE EPIPHANY”! If that were the case, then it wouldn’t be a fucking epiphany! For one to experience such, it requires an understanding of differences, an willingness to expand one’s limited knowledge and the depth to be capable of doing so. And you wanna know how someone, hell, ANYone, experiences this? By having something happen to them. Yes, Roz, something DID happen, and it’s because of this, Joyce had a “simple epiphany” that’s adding to the changes she’s already going through.
All and all, I’m pretty PO’d at Roz. I was quite surprised to see Joyce actually get pissed about the reality, which is a good thing. She’s been in a bubble all her life and now she’s broken out of it. Hell, she wanted to get out of it, and as a having grown up in one myself, I couldn’t be more proud of her. She’s got plenty a battle coming her way, but so long as she keeps fighting, she’ll end up winning the war for herself.
Roz, on the other hand, really needs to shut the fuck up. She wants to be understood, seen and heard constantly, and it’s quite aggravating. She claims to command respect but in reality she just demands attention, and she’ll get it by any and every means necessary. What irks me most about her is her obvious inferiority complex: She feels that she’s been “fighting” for some great change where in reality she just wants to be acknowledge for her lifestyle choice, as if it’s something reprehensible like the way the LGBT community is seen. In truth, that’s a morality choice and it varies from person to person. Do I personally think her lifestyle is wrong? No, because it’s her life, to each their own. She’s not hurting anybody, but once her views and choices do hurt someone, only then does it become a problem, which is what’s happened here.
When they first met, Joyce was bothered by Roz’s forwardness about sexuality, but she didn’t go out of her way to totally bash her. Hell, she went to Roz’s event and (though begrudgingly) wore the dildo on her head at her insistence. Joyce made her stance after having tried to comprehend her. Roz took her at face value and left it at that. Roz is the one in desperate need of this “simple epiphany”:
No one cares what you do. Be happy with yourself and live your life with that in mind. If someone comes along who does happen to care, cherish them. As many people as there are in this world, only so many will give a shit about you. Stop trying to force everyone to accept, respect and acknowledge you because they’re not all going to. Shut up and observe the world around you instead of expecting the world to observe you.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnd that’s my rant. Once again Willis, amazing job. I can’t wait to see how this arc unfolds.
Wow! I think you win the wordcount for this discussion. A well thought out and explained standing.
…wait? Dildo on her head? Did that happen in canon? Did I miss something?
…are you misremembering somebody’s photoshopped avatar as canon
That would appear to be what is happening.
Apparently so. *le sigh* Stupid convincing Photoshop. Either way, Joyce still made the effort and always makes the effort to learn new things.
Also, holy crap Willis not only replied to my post, but he also corrected it! *squee* Srsly, have you EVER considered animating DoA!? The writing is….I’ve got no words as to how well written and thought out your characters and stories are, and I don’t mean for TV. Just an online independent thing a la Rooster Teeth. If you’d grant me permission, I’d like to make a sample for you. What do you think? (Yes, I know shameless, but what better opportunity am I gonna get to ask this question and get a fairly timely response!?)
Huh. I hate Roz more than Malaya now.
That’s weird.
I am BAFFLED by the rage that Roz seems to have engendered here. Lady is completely right. Why should she have to soften her tone just because Joyce’s feelings might get hurt? Where was all this rage when Joyce was saying she hated homosexuality with the white hot fire of a thousand suns? Joyce isn’t innocent in all of this — she’s actively working to undermine Ethan’s sexuality, and if she’s had a personal moment of revelation, that still doesn’t mean her righteous fury at the church she supported as recently as LAST WEEK is anything other than self-serving. Roz is calling her to account, and rightly so. It might — MIGHT — be inappropriate for a classroom (but a gender studies classroom? that is where these discussions HAPPEN), but it would be not just fair but massively overdue in a social situation. Nobody owes Joyce forgiveness or understanding for suddenly realizing that her beliefs that LGBT people are actually people — that is a *baseline standard for decency.*
Basically, it’s nice that Joyce has woken up, but that doesn’t mean that all of the terrible things she supported — and actively supported, not just passively witnessed — didn’t happen, or that she doesn’t bear the responsibility for them. Take your medicine, kid — you’ve earned it.
I dunno, why do you think her teacher asked her to soften her tone?
Where I come from, forgiveness and understanding are ALSO part of a baseline standard for decency. (And part of a complete breakfast, but that’s a different strip.)
I agree that Roz is right. She’s totally 100% right. That’s irrelevant to the question of whether she’s being a complete asshole.
I don’t even think she’s being an asshole! She’s just not letting Joyce’s behavior slide out of consideration for her feelings. She is holding her accountable.
And, also, Joyce hasn’t done much to earn forgiveness or understanding. She’s softened on Becky, and she’s internally questioning things, but she hasn’t acknowledged her own active participation in what she’s deploring. To borrow from Joyce’s own religion, you have to repent before you can be forgiven, and she isn’t repenting, not yet.
We like Joyce because we see her interior life, but most people at IU — and Roz especially — aren’t privy to that, and it’s both entirely fair and entirely justified to call her out when she talks out of her ass.
Ok, let’s flip the coin then. Where was Roz’s boiling rage when Joyce WAS actively acting out against homosexuality? Where was her white hot indignation when Joyce WAS actively part of a church that hurt people? To put in in Roz’s own words, where was Roz for the first four weeks? I’m not saying her anger isn’t understandable; it is. However, you don’t yell at someone who figures out that they were wrong. You yell at someone who is still doing the wrong thing. Roz IS being an asshole, but she has a reason to be.
Out fighting the good fight? Advocating for a healthy understanding of an open sexuality and film an agitprop sex tape? They haven’t interacted much in the strip, and when they have, Roz has been pretty consistent about calling Joyce on her bullshit.
Also, Joyce IS still doing the wrong thing — in that she’s not really grappling with her own complicity in creating the culture she’s now railing against. She’s condemning the church for being anti-LGBT, but without acknowledging her own part in reifying the church. She’s not approaching this apologetically, or humbly, or even particularly thoughtfully — she’s just skipping over all that hard work.
And is Roz even yelling at her? She’s annoyed, sure, but it’s hardly a spittle-flecked rant. And bear in mind that Joyce physically assaulted Joe on their date, and nearly assaulted him again after he and Roz hooked up consensually. And Roz’s behavior in this strip is an over-the-shoulder truth bomb mostly directed to Leslie, not to Joyce.
You know, everything aside, I do *like* Joyce, but you can’t say this isn’t a completely earned putdown. I hope she takes it deep to heart and grows from it.
But she’s not old enough to have gained any power or say in the situation before now. Personally, I think that there are levels of responsibility for actions, and Joyce is only now beginning to pick up noticeable responsibility. Up until now, has ANYONE pointed out problems the church has? At first it was just Mary, which one person isn’t a big enough pool to say anything about the Church. Joyce thought “Maybe this is why we go to a different one”, so she honestly did not have enough data to count it as anything other than a fluke.
Only now is Joyce being shown any kind of trend of the Church which shows a negative aspect.
She has no reason to be “humble” or “apologetic” yet. She’s just now finding out about this, and is not ready to address even her peers about this. She is yelling up the ladder, not outside of it, even though the ladder may not be directly there. Apologeticness only comes AFTER Joyce has time to reflect and realize her part, not immediately after something is revealed.
And Joyce has had no real power over these actions. She was a child, living under rule of her parents, and did not have much room to work. Because of this, she has not had room to really become guilty. Now if she’s like that in a few years, or arguably a semester, THEN she has something to be guilty of. But for now, Joyce has not had much of an option to stray from her predetermined path, so her guilt in this situation should be minimal.
You honestly can’t go asking babies not to eat here, and you can’t go asking sheltered church-girls to take responsibility for what they did not know or know to know or even know to know to be watching for.
I get that Joyce comes from weird circumstances, but she is by any definition of the term an adult. A sheltered, weird, poorly socialized adult, but an adult nonetheless, and one capable of forming her own opinions and making her own decisions. She is, to again borrow a construct from Christianity, old enough to sin, to have ownership of both her virtues and her vices.
If you want to say that she hasn’t had time to reflect on what she’s been taught, or simply hasn’t run into counterexamples before, well, that goes against what we’ve seen here in the strip, where Joyce has gone around lecturing people (sweetly), condemning people to everlasting hellfire (apologetically), and punching people for insufficiently enacting a chilvaric ideal they didn’t sign up for (and also planning to convert them if the date had gone well). That’s a lot of pretty aggressive pushing of her ideals in ways that are at best heedless and at worst actively cruel and destructive. Roz specifically has pushed back against that, both in the culture in general and in Joyce’s behavior particularly, but she hasn’t sought out Joyce to harangue her, only responded when they’re in class together.
Now, sure, Joyce is growing at LIGHTNING SPEED as the strip goes on, and she’s had some terrible things happen to her to cause that, but no one outside of a handful of people know what those things are or even that they happened. Getting called out on her behavior is neither unreasonable nor unearned — and Roz isn’t calling her out on where she was six years ago, but where she was all of last month while she was actively trying to tell Roz that she was going to hell.
And if you can’t call someone out as an entitled enforcer of the majoritarian view in a GENDER THEORY class, where in god’s name can you? That is literally what you sign up for those classes for.
1. no it’s really not what you sign up for
2. But Roz isn’t just calling her out on this. She is trying to ride upon something Joyce realized late in the game to make her feel horrible, not trying to get Joyce to understand that something is wrong.
3. Although Joyce may be LEGALLY an adult, and of “age”, she is not mature yet. (Hence the name of the comic, a play on Coming of Age.) She’s not even legally a full adult when you think about it. She can’t buy beer, she can’t pick up children from some forms of daycare, etc.
The way Roz is doing this isn’t going to teach Joyce anything. The words she have chosen and the way she emphasize them are done deliberately to make Joyce feel responsible for all the injustice and suffering homosexuals have had to, and are still going through from the religious conservative communities. She’s saying that Joyce shouldn’t be held responsible just for the harm her own ignorance might have caused, but that she should carry the guilt of all transgressions perpetrated by other people as well. That’s not going to accomplish anything unless the goal is to make Joyce retreat back into her comfort zone of ignorance and fundamentalism.
No, she’s rightly saying that Joyce was an active participant and enforcer of a religious culture that drives queer kids to suicide and self-destruction. Joyce willingly, insistently, and happily identified herself with the very church she now condemns up until just recently — and that means taking on its flaws as much as its virtues. She’s NOT saying Joyce was out there beating people to death, but that she WAS telling them they were disgusting sinners condemned to an eternity of torment because of a quirk of biology. That is a terrible thing to do to someone.
“The church” exists through the people that make it up. Joyce could have been silent, could have been a passive believer — take Sierra as an example — but she wasn’t. She was proselytizing from day one, and that makes her that much more complicit in what the class is discussing, much more actively guilty of the sins of the church.
When you put it that way, I have to agree that you have a point. I still think Roz method is unforgivable however. I’ve done too much wrong with that exact same rethoric to consider it justifiable under any circumstance. Maybe it’s a personal bias from my own past as a bully, but when I see people try to make people feel guilty for actions they haven’t had any active influence in or knowledge of, something snaps inside me and I can’t forgive them any more than I could forgive myself.
At the very least, she’s being an asshole because they’re in a classroom environment, which is supposed to foster healthy discussion and civility. If she freaked out on Joyce outside the classroom then it would be different.
Also, I know Roz doesn’t understand this so I can’t hold her to it, but Joyce has had a lot of crap thrown at her over the past few weeks. She was sheltered for her entire life up until now, to the point where she thought she’d be disobeying God if she defied her parents on minor things. And what’s more, her best friend just got kicked out and she has to hide that from her parents, which is like sin on top of sin, but she can’t see herself doing anything differently. She is SO CONFUSED. I’ve had friends who were there; I’ve had friends grow up in sheltered religious homes and realize they were gay or trans, or be forced to realize how horrible their parents and communities were, and it’s HARD AS HELL. Nobody is required to give them a gentle loving hand or a party, but a little patience can mean the world to someone who is struggling that much with everything they believe. So yeah, Roz is right. But considering the context, she’s also an asshole.
But part of being in a classroom — ESPECIALLY in a class like gender studies — is being called out and challenged on your beliefs and arguments. Roz hasn’t sworn at Joyce, she hasn’t yelled, she hasn’t brought anything up in the discussion the JOYCE HERSELF hasn’t brought up in earlier sessions. I don’t think she deserves to get pulled out of class, or that she’s being an asshole at all.
Yeah but most classrooms have policies where you can’t be openly hostile towards your classmates. Especially in a class that touches heavy topics like a gender studies class. Her beliefs should be challenged, but Roz is being hostile, and that’s not appropriate.
Think of it this way: if someone (god forbid) had an “epiphany” and became a born-again Christian, and Mary told them that they had a boatload of stuff to repent for in the most derisive and petulant tone she could muster (which is very), would you be defending her? No? Because that is what Roz is doing here. Yes, Joyce needs to know that she’s not in the clear, but Roz is doing it in the exact wrong way.
Furthermore, this comes off a little like a temper tantrum cut with childish vengeance. If Roz’s sister weren’t Robin “I’m in it to win it” DeSanto and she hadn’t been ranted at by Joyce for pre-marital hanky-pankies, I highly doubt she’d be so full of vitriol.
It’s a bad analogy. A better one would be if someone became a born again Christian and proceeded to condescend to sinners for not having seen the light (?) and Mary (??) called them out on being the exact same thing two days ago.
Also I don’t get the “temper tantrum cut with childish vengeance” thing. Roz is totally right here. That *was* Joyce until yesterday. Calling her childish for that is … I’m confused by that. Roz is an angry person, sure, but not childish — like Sarah, she looks at the world and sees that it’s terrible, but where Sarah retreats into herself until she has to swoop in with a baseball bat, Roz goes out and gets in people’s faces to make things better. How is that childish? How is her scorn here a tantrum? I think she’s more angry at Joyce for what she represents than what she is, individually.
I don’t know. I’ve got a lot more respect for Roz in DoA than I do pretty much anyone else. She’s not very “softly, softly,” but why should she be? Why should she have to be brave, and right, AND nice on top of all that? Why should she be held to a higher standard than Joyce, who is only intermittently brave, and seldom right, and not even that nice.
First, the point is Roz and Mary would go about things in the exact same way: They are very “hate the sinner, hate sin” and quite gung-ho about their attitudes. The fact that one’s a liberal and the other’s a conservative just goes to show that it doesn’t matter what the beliefs are, it’s the person who holds them.
Second, I’m not calling Roz childish for the point she is making. I’m calling her childish for the way she is making it: A big, unstoppable, one-track rant whose real goal is trying to make Joyce as uncomfortable as possible. That is what I see and that is why I made the analogy to Mary. As for motive: Roz is getting back at Joyce for the “your soul is a delicate flower” speech Joyce gave her on the first day of class. If Roz had stopped when Leslie told her to the first time, I would be supportive of her. If she had stopped when Leslie told her to the second time, I’d be a bit miffed but I’d still see her point. That Roz did not stop until the third time, and may well continue tomorrow, is a sign that this is more personal than a simple “this is for your own good”.
Third, I‘m not holding any one to any ideals, merely trying to explain why others don’t like her. Maybe this would work better: People don’t like Roz because Roz is unlikable. She’s vindictive, rude, out for attention, and now we see her being a bully. She may hold views you hold and she may spread them the way you do, but that does not give her a free pass anymore than Joyce’s upbringing gave her one. You can’t have it both ways
See, but I like Roz, so she’s clearly not unlikeable. 🙂
But more broadly, we have a pretty different interpretation of the character. You see vindictiveness, I see a legit response to a pattern of sweetie-pie abusiveness on Joyce’s part. You see rude, and I see someone who… what? was told she was going to hell for harmless sex and called it horseshit? Being told you’re damned seems much ruder to me. Out for attention? Agitating for societal change. You can say the difference is that I agree more with Roz’s politics, and I ABSOLUTELY do, but you can’t say that she does things just to make herself more renowned on campus. EVERYTHING Roz does is in service to her agenda.
And being a bully? How? She’s correctly described Joyce as belonging to a church that condemns and casts out gay people. She hasn’t pursued the girl outside of class — in fact, I don’t think she and Joyce have interacted AT ALL other than in class here, she hasn’t hounded her in class, and she hasn’t done anything to her other than tell her she’s being a judgmental ahole. Which Joyce is! Lord love her, but Joyce has done incredibly jerky things in the strip and mostly slid away from it by being a sweetheart and — admittedly! — a fundamentally decent human being. I don’t know what definition of bullying you’re using.
I also don’t think we have any evidence that Roz wants to lord anything over anyone else. She wants to change people’s minds, right enough, but she hasn’t done anything that says you have to look up to Roz, specifically — look at how she handled Dorothy’s interview. Once she was convinced Dorothy would give her a fair shake, she was happy to answer what sounded like a pretty skeptical interview. She cares about the message, where Mary cares about being the messenger, if you get what I’m saying.
Roz is childish in that, by all appearances, she appears to be enitrely unwilling to ever admit that she could possibly be in the wrong. If you can’t admit to ever being wrong, you have some serious growing up to do.
Saaame. Joyce also says she might take it back afterwards, which means that she might just revert back to passively supporting her church’s stand. I always see people online tone policing social justice people to “be nicer to the bigot” but sheesh, there’s a pretty good reason why SJ people are pretty pissed about these things.
I had no idea that this comic would have inspire so many comments… 900+ and counting.
People get vocal about things that seem like bullying. You add religion and sexuality to the mix both highly charged topics well..you get 900 comments maybe even over 1000
I understand Roz’s frustration, but jesus. Joyce is going through enough as it is.
Yeah, Roz, you should probably tone it down because this is a classroom. But at the same time, snaps because you’re fucking right.
I’m sick of people saying “oh well someone isn’t as TERRIBLE as they previously were/could be so you shouldn’t be so hard on them”. Nah. Like, sure, I’m glad my parents haven’t disowned me for being queer and trans, and after a almost a year have started to come around on the name change. It’d be a little more meaningful if they’d do anything other than unilaterally refuse to use the correct pronouns/gendered words when referring to me and like, also back me up when the extended family misgender me and just overall start being conservative jerkwads, but hey they’re not the literally worst parents to exist so I can’t complain, right?
And to everyone calling Roz a bongo for the sake of being a bongo, no? Like, this is some pretty fucking legitimate anger at the Church and religious people. Joyce’s (currently evolving) views are incredibly harmful to queer people, beyond people being thrown out, but the repercussions of knowing you’ll be hated/not accepted/maybe tolerated by people who should, theoretically love you unconditionally take a heavy mental toll, not to mention the mental processing used to keep safe. Like, yeah, this isn’t the time and place to yell at Joyce some more, but y’know that’s also why it’s called “losing your temper”. Because you lost the control.
I tried reading the comments, but after a while they started feeling like background noise. *tired*
Yeah… I don’t think bongos were ever a foreground instrument – there to set the beat, but not the pizazz.
Wow, that was brutal, but true. Cant imagine how terrible it must be for Joyce to hear it, but unfortunately, it is true.
I like Leslie’s approach. “We discuss the material, not each other”.
WHY I OUGHTA
eeek jules was right
Okay is it bad that i am just getting how my username correlated to this particular strip?
Yes.
1: If you believe that Joyce’s background and home environment give her a pass for some of the truly hurtful things she’s said and done, then please consider that Roz is the same age–different experiences, yes, but still a short lifespan that has only given her a limited view of things. Just because she doesn’t think anyone has anything to teach her doesn’t mean it’s true.
2: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/petals/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/continue/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/03-the-first-step-towards-recovery/card-2/
The entirety of Joyce’s part their interaction has been “Your soul is shredded down to the roots” and “You’re a witch!”–the second in reaction to a deliberate attempt by Roz to help someone who might be in need. It would be a good idea to keep that in mind in judging Roz’s words here.
3: Like it or not, Roz’s key accusation is spot-on. Joyce’s alterations of her views have only come in response to discovering something uncomfortable about someone she knows.
Consider two hypothetical scenarios:
A: This class happened a week ago, comic-time. Would Joyce have been saying “Hanky-panky the church”, or would she have been giving apologetics about how forcing the LGBT youths to choose between the street or being ‘treated’ is really for their own good?
B: Given what we’ve seen of Joyce’s parents, and what happened to Becky, how often do you think their church has had a situation where a young teen was suddenly no longer attending services, and the other kids were simply urged to not talk about it? Joyce’s blind obedience has had a cost to others, even if she didn’t know about the cost.
The place where Roz went wrong was the timing, particularly once Leslie told her flat-out to knock it off. That crossed a major line, and she has earned the verbal boot-print Leslie just put on her ass.
I missed the part where anyone told Roz she was supposed to treat Joyce like a hero. Her hostility is pretty ridiculous right now.
I’d be the first (well, in top 50 at least) to call Joyce a horrible person.
But Roz is being, if not wrong as such, at least in wrong place to state her opinions.
Class is for studies, not telling people how horrible and bigoted they are, or were, unless they insist on bringing it up themselves.
But Joyce *has* insisted on bringing it up, again and again, in this very class. And Gender Studies classes tend to be pretty heavily discussion-driven, or at least they were at my school — it’s not like you just sit there and the teacher lectures you for an hour and then everybody goes home. This whole conversation is pretty much on model for the class.
But didn’t Leslie bring the conversion off that when class started?
If I recall, she tossed her bag on her desk and told them to continue.
I think your name-link got deleted.
This one? http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/continue/
“Why can’t I do that? He did it!” is a popular refrain in elementary school. It’s also no excuse for one’s behavior. Roz deserved to be shot down by Leslie for launching into a personal attack. If anything, Leslie should have been more consistent in this regard in the past.
But that failure of consistency likely fed Roz’s anger. Joyce gets to tell people their souls are shredded down to the roots; Roz gets told to knock it off for pointing out that Joyce has been willfully blind to stuff being said in class for weeks, and suggesting that her motivation for doing so is more based in some personal drama, rather than honestly thinking things through.
Dang, hit Post too soon. My point is that from Roz’s point of view, Leslie has set an uneven playing field. That, in turn, makes her less likely to be willing to listen to Leslie as a referee in shutting down personal attacks.
Leslie came in late that day, and when she arrived, all she saw was Joyce and Roz going at each other’s throats. That time, Leslie didn’t try to separate the two.
Don’t beat me for saying this, but I feel sometimes that Joyce gets away with a lot of her behavior because she’s got them big blue eyes, and can just look so pathetic when they are filled with tears that it pulls sympathy.
Nah, them blue eyes are actually kinda creepy – particularily because no other character has any visible eye coloration 🙂
Her father does, as does her her sister (and presumably her brothers). Oh! and Ruth got green eyes from her near death experience, so she actually counts!
Other than Hank, Jocelyn, Ruth, Mary, Penny, Conquest, Other Rachel…
*beats Reaver for saying this*
YOU MADE JOYCE CRY
LOOK AT HER TEAR-FILLED BLUE EYES, ARE YOU HAPPY NOW
I am hysterically happy now 8D
Your Mike avatar makes any comments about beating disturbing…
It seems fitting, Mine is lovebirds
Sympathy and my psl. It’s something I always find very hard to fight.
::beats Reaver for reasons completely unrelated to what he or she said::
well Roz managed to piss me off more than Becky did so that’s quite an achievement
The world would be a better place if there were more people like Joyce and Dorothy, and less people like Roz and Mary.
Another stone thrown… and so the ripple effect begins again. Looking forward to seeing the end effect of this, heh.
Can’t help but wonder how Joyce will react to Mary the next time Mary asks her a loaded question like she did earlier in the chapter – even Joyce vocalizing herself here shows great conviction on her behalf (though Roz’s point carries validity, too). The shift is beginning to show.
Well done story and characterization as always.
Ooh! I just figured it out! This is a Prodigal Son story! That’s actually quite clever.
Huh? That sounds interesting? Could you elaborate please?
The Prodigal Son, in a nutshell:
A family with many sons, and one of them runs away (the prodigal son). When he later returns and reconciles, the family throws a celebration. At least one of his brothers grumbles about not getting showered with praise for not running away in the first place.
…aand I forget the rest. The End!
Oh my…I can see how that can work on either Roz or Becky.
Bagge, if you recall, the titular character asks his father for his share of the inheritance so that he can go about his own life while his older brother remained home. The younger squandered his money until he was left to feeding and eating with pigs. He made the realization that he should return home and beg to work for his father as his servants were treated better. Upon his return and begging at his father’s knees, his father welcomed him back with open arms and threw a feast for him. The older son, who remained, refused to participate. Enraged, he stated how he never got a thing for behaving and doing right by his father. The father simply states that all that he has is his son’s, and that he’s just grateful to have his youngest home.
Roz could be the older son, who’s always known freedom yet never broken any real taboo while Becky could be the younger, given true freedom for the first time and on the verge of squandering it. The only difference we could see here though, is that while Becky is rejected by one family, she may be welcomed with open arms into another that she can truly call home.
This is the finale of a trilogy of parables about loss and redemption (The Lost Lamb and the Lost Coin being the first two) so it’ll be interesting to see where this goes. Damn you Willis for making me recall my Catholic school days! >.</
I lean towards Joyce, with Leslie “welcoming her home” into the real world and Roz playing the role of the older son.
I always thought the older son had a point being royally pissed about that
I was more imagining a Leslie/Roz/Joyce trio. (Also, I thought the parable related to them. Heyo!) Leslie’s the dad in this context. Roz is all “I’ve been fighting for gay rights since forever, why is this bare token acknowledgement from Joyce getting celebrated when she’s been hating on us for the entire rest of her life?” and Les is all “Roz, no one is denying any of that, but Joyce is a part of our metaphorical family now, and that’s still something that should be celebrated. Even if you feel like throwing blame, that shouldn’t stop you from being happy that you have another sister now.”
Personally, I always saw it as a lesson about always trying to find the good in situations instead of alienating people with negativity, but it’s definitely the kind of story that can be read multiple ways.
This whole situation is just such a perfect example about how things are not black and white. Roz isn’t all wrong to be upset that Joyce is only examining her beliefs simply because something happened to someone she knows. Her knee-jerk reaction makes even more sense when you consider the bits Joyce had told her about her soul being like a flower and all – it’s pretty personal to Roz.
Still, Dorothy is right to point out that letting Joyce learn isn’t a bad thing either – what good is it if someone tries to change their beliefs for whatever reason and is met with only anger? (But this is also specific to Joyce… I think others in the comments were already mentioning people who change their beliefs simply because it will personally benefit them…aka politicians especially… but Joyce seems to be looking at a broader view than that.)
And finally, yeah. Joyce is realizing that beliefs that were integral to her being, that her church that she grew up in… they are not maybe the best beliefs in the world due to the harm they have caused others and that’s going to be hard to confront, with or without Roz.
I am really enjoying watching the forum explode here.
Gonna clear 1000 easily now.
Yeah, I never comment here, and this one sucked me in. Damn you, Willis!
Annnnndd there we go.
Indeed. The forum rarely sees many posts after morning the next day.
I know this won’t be noticed since I know others have seen each perspective but i’ll say it.
I am annoyed with Roz, but it hurts not because she’s wrong, but because of how right she is. I was a Joyce until my second year of high school. I was ignorant, innocent, and no one told me much because they thought i would panic. Shoot I didn’t even know what a condom was til the first year of high school. I spend a good amount of my time at church and my head in the books and to make matters worse I was pretty sure anyone who wasn’t christian was going to hell. :<
It took til I was hit with a painful moment. My best friend revealed she was Bisexual. (Heh). I worried, I told her I would pray for her, I begged her to go back to being straight cause I couldn't imagine her getting condemned to "holy fire".
Then I thought. God isn't that much of a dick as to take away my best friend. So I read up on it, looked online, and realized that most of this bad stuff only occurred in the church since it was obvious we have gone to not do alot of the things shown in the bible. But that now a days because people were "rejected" for being themselves. I cared too much about her. I accepted her to a point and almost threw my whole religion away because I was ashamed of what I had followed for so long. In the past 5 years i've met tons of awesome Lgbt people, atheists, etc. But it's so hard to be a christian when half the time I feel people don't even look at the actual person before judging them. :/ …writing this made me realize I was a younger Joyce. Dear GOD.
I tried to agree that I was getting better and blame the church, but it became painfully true that I was one of the people who rejected others because of who they were. I thought my belief was higher than others. And many people have had their lives destroyed because the “church” doesn’t like it. It’s sad. It’s not like I can change anything, but anyone who has changed kinda wishes they could.
An abusive bully is an abusive bully, whether I agree with their politics or not.
Indeed. Roz might be correct that this is something Joyce needs to be confronted with, but her methods are reprehensible. Especially if the point is to actually teach her something.
Roz is not that much different then Joyce in that neither are afraid of spouting off their beliefs, just that in this case Roz is calling out Joyces bullshit
Yup. Telling someone they have no soul and accusing them of witchcraft because it’s impossible they might be trying to do something decent for you is a pretty textbook case of bullying.
Oh, sorry, are we still giving Joyce a magic Backstory Pass for all her shit, but denying it for any other characters? My bad.
That’s it, Roz! Make her feel embarrassed and defensive! Don’t celebrate her learning or encourage further growth!
People certainly don’t react to discomfort by retreating to familiar ground! You want to keep her unbalanced until your final goal is realized: Joyce, crying and prostrating herself in front of a giant cross covered in condoms.
Did you notice Joyce blaming the church for what was happening, the same church she belongs to, the same church she listens to for guidence?
Is joyce taking any responsibility for being part of the same organization?
Remember her arguing vehemently with Dina about evolution while waiting to get a flu shot?
Don’t think thats being hypocritical?
How she thinks she can help “cure” Ethan of his gayness?
Sounds like one step away from “rehabilitation”
Basically calling Roz a slut while saying shes concerned for Joes soul and thinking Roz is part of a coven?
Double standards much?
Physical assualt on Joe because he has different values to hers…
Sure shes made progress but Roz has a right to be pissed at Joyce over prior treatment
No, Roz does not have a right to be pissed at Joyce right now. You don’t get to be mad at someone when they’re right just because they were wrong before. You don’t let grudges get in the way of good development. That’s just the same kind of hypocritical self-righteous, self-serving bullshit that Roz was supposed to dislike Joyce for.
Roz have every right to be pissed. Up until yesterday Joyce supported practices that are literally driving kids to death and until she owns up to that she haven’t progressed in any meaningful way.
Yeah, still don’t like her.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/prank-pulled/
It would seem only two things have the power to fuel over 1000 comments:
1. Sexual revelation
2. Bongos
If you’re having problems swearing I feel bad for you son
There are 99 swears but a bongo’s a drum
Last line is funny. That said, Willis added a swear filter that replaces a certain word for a female dog with ‘bongo’. Go ahead and try it, I guess.
I only came here to see the bongos play.
Joyce’s problems in a nutshell: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/unobjectionable-2/
Yup.
Well… she would still have had to deal with the whole “her best friend is a lesbian and cast out of her community” thing, and she would have been in a much worse position to help her.
Which wouldn’t have happened if http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/unobjectionable-2/ didn’t.
For the sake of my amusement I hereby declare that Bongo is the name of an evil mutant clown demon that feeds off the sorrow and terror of children as it lives in the sewers of small town America. When we say that Roz is acting like a Bongo, we mean she is acting like a monster from a Steven King novel.
Kidnapping children and flooding rooms with balloons?
Well, I don’t know about the kidnapping. But she has flooded rooms with balloons. You know, in the sense that you can use a condom like a balloon.
Not the other way around, though. Using a balloon as a condom just sounds painful and dangerous for a number of reasons.
O.O PLEASE don’t make me spam the comments section simply to get that out of the RSS feeds!
Come on! We’re like less than a hundred posts away from beating out Danny imagining he’s kissing a dude! We can do it! We can be the most discussed strip in DOA! We just have to push a little bit ahead and we’re there!
How many replies did that one have?
1150, give or take. We’re sooooo close!
IT IS EVIL!!!!!!!!!
I am probably going to get beaten up for this, but I’ll say it anyway. For a comic strip, this is getting to be decidedly unfunny. I don’t mind a bit of social advocacy in a strip, Doonesbury broke that ground a long time ago and still manages to be amusing at times, but can you manage please try to get some giggles back?
That’s what the Bongos are for! ^.^
You have to make your own humor here. Like, you could assume Joyce in the last panel has retaliated against Roz’s criticism by chewing her hair. Also, her head grew like three sizes while she did so. Bam. Problem solved.
Walky lets out a huuuugge fart in the last invisible panel.
Have you forgotten “HAIL SATAN!”?
Of course not! How could anyone forget MY debue? (Yeah, no. I don’t know how to spell that)
no
Are you saying that because you wrote this months ago and are not going to make dramatic changes to it now, weather or not there’s something funny coming up, or are you saying that because this comic is going to get very dark very fast?
Not speaking for Willis here, speaking for artists and writers (as I am one) in general:
Butthurt viewers don’t get to dictate the content of the story. It doesn’t matter if it was written months ago or minutes ago. There’s enough other Internet to fuck off to if you can’t handle what’s in the story you’re reading.
(I’ve had to post this multiple times on LICD and LFG, and I gave up on telling it to the QC readers long ago, so it’s not just aimed at a reader on DoA, either.)
Yes, but if it was the first reason, then he wouldn’t be “adding” in more funny, he’d “have added” more funny.
I think the most obvious answer is that he’s saying that out of sheer spite. Because this is his story and by god it’ll be done his way and aint nobody gonna make him do it different.
All in all a perfectly valid viewpoint from my perspective!
Okay, FINE! I just really wanted to know if this was going to be getting funny, or if I should be more careful when I read this because it’s going to pull me to tears when one of the secondary characters gets involved.
Don’t ask me why, but I always fall in love with secondaries.
Did you miss the strip litterally right before this one?
over a 1000 comments this a first.
Bravo Willis.
0_0
Okay, it’s like five minutes until the next comic goes up, but I want to say this before it does.
Roz is right, but God, did she pick a terrible way to phrase it. She pinpoints accurately that this is something hitting close to home for Joyce, and basically comes down hard on her for having the temerity to change her mind based on personal evidence rather than just being told something that flew in the face of preconceived notions. I mean, yeah, her upbringing told her that the world as a whole was degenerate and would try to lead her astray, but shouldn’t she know they were lying to her?
On the other hand, while we come down hard on her since she hasn’t seen what’s been going on for Joyce in recent days, neither have we seen what’s been going on with Roz, and there’s some very real baggage we know of already.
Fuck anyone who honestly thinks Roz is right, and you’re even worse if you’re saying “I agree, but she shouldn’t have said it/said it like that”.
Someone is coming out of their shell, questioning past beliefs, and questioning an institution they once thought infallible, and her reaction is to get pissed at Joyce PERSONALLY for it. Joyce was learning to empathize and consider people with more care, and Roz got mad at her for previously having the incorrect opinion. Just so she can feel all mighty and superior, and because she was feeling miffed for not having her “open minded brilliance” celebrated. She’s a narcissistic bongo who clearly doesn’t care about the actual people facing oppression, only her self-righteousness and self-satisfaction. So no, everything about what she said and thinks is pretty fucking wrong.
And if you think it’s somehow better to think the same thing, but not say it aloud so that you never have to be challenged and so you can sit oh so smug inside your own head, you’re even worse. At least Roz had the guts to be frank with her opinion.
I agree with some of your points, but I think declaring that she doesn’t care about the people suffering at all is going way too far. I don’t buy it. Until we see some clear evidence to the contrary (and to the best of my recollection, we have not) we can’t assume Roz isn’t sincere in her beliefs. There might be more going on there (Big Sis issues come to mind) but I don’t see people getting victimized not mattering to her. If anything, I think she cares to much- so much that she’s projecting the hate she has for legit awful people onto people like Joyce who are just misguided and learning.
One could almost say that Roz is a fundamentalist, it’s just that her belief system isn’t what most people think of when they think “fundamentalist”.
this topic brought way too much comments
….which you just added to…
…and got replies for…
Indeed.
+1
Roz is a hypocrite — despite all her talk, she’s just judging Joyce on the superficial level of “Joyce is a fundy”, which is no different from some idiot judging people on the level of “so and so is a lesbian, that’s all I need to know.”
We’ve never seen any sign or hint of Joyce “forcing kids out of their homes and onto the streets” — and yet Roz pins some sort of collective blame for that crap on her.
What we do know about Joyce is that when faced with that choice, she did the right thing.
So, to hell with Roz.
BA-BA-LOOOOO!!!
(bongo – bongo – bongo)
I keep thinking about this and kinda churning over different feelings. Having been more Joyce than Roz, and being a naturally sensitive person, it’s hard for me to see someone like Roz tear into Joyce as she’s just starting to express new, scary-to-her beliefs. But at the same time, Roz has a massive point and I feel a little tone-policing for being upset at how harshly she’s voiced her thoughts. I can see where her thought process might be, “So I’m damaged goods for having pre-marital, but suddenly LGBT+ is acceptable? OH. HELL. NO. HYPOCRITE.” And how she would react in completely righteous anger. And how she and Joyce don’t have a relationship where it might be appropriate for her to go to Joyce after class to confront her rather than derail class and verbally eviscerate Joyce publicly.
I think I just kinda keep wishing that someone closer to Joyce had been the one to have this hard conversation. Sarah, Billie, Dorothy or Walky…hell, Jocelyne or Ethan. Someone who could be like, “Really, now? Really?”
Also, of what we’ve seen of both Roz and Joyce, it really does seem like Joyce is the one who is more compassionate and moved to positive action. Roz’s beliefs and actions often seem reactionary against what she sees as the status quo, though I’m not sure it’s fair to categorize her thusly.
I dunno. We’ll see how things turn out. Just still thinking through all the implications of everything thusfar.
In retrospect: taken out of context, Joyce’s face in panel two is hilarious. It’s like every little muscle is doing its own thing, and the brain is too overwhelmed to stop them. 😀
I need some levity, okay?
Done.
“So a priest, a rabbi, and a muslim walk into a bar. Guy on the street says ‘Damn, thought at least one of them would have seen it. Ouch.’ ”
“I a guy goes to the doctor and says ‘Doc I dreamed last night that I was eating a huge marshmallow and I woke up and realized I ate my whole feather pillow in my sleep!’ Doc says ‘Well, how do you feel now?’ Guy replies ‘A little down in the mouth.’ ”
I can keep going if you want.
*Mike walks in*Mike: Oh, you heard about that?
You: Heard about what?
Mike: What your mom said.
I love how Joyce is being put through the ringer in terms of character development.
It’s so engaging to watch someone overcome what they’ve been programmed to be, as painful as it is to have your whole worldview flipped upside-down.
I guess NOW is a good moment to link to http://purplekecleon.tumblr.com/post/116487235265/im-really-tired-of-seeing-people-broken-up-into
Y’know, all through Shortpacked!, I never got why folks didn’t like Roz. She was certainly not a flawless human being, but not hateworthy. Until this strip. Seriously, Roz, fuck you.
Signing in really late to be in total support of Roz in this strip.