You’d think an inside-out sock on a doorknob would mean something truly bizarre and kinky was going on inside, but it’s really just how a asexual person indicates a quiet night of reading, TV, video games, etc. and would prefer not to be disturbed.
Well, he was ditched, but it took duct-tape, rope, a grappling hook, and a moody RA to do so. Maybe the Ditch thing is not that isn’t so unlikely after all.
Maybe an older Amber, a more secure, self-possessed Amber. I think current Amber would be too consumed with “WHAT NOT AGAIN THIS IS JUST LIKE PROM” feelings.
yeah, especially considering how often Amber’s shown that guy on guy turns her on… I keep wondering if a threesome (is three enough to say poly?) relationship with Dan and Ethan would work or not.
Also, a three(or more)some isn’t the same as poly, any more than having sex means you’ll get married. Poly involves long-term, stable relationships with multiple sexual partners. It’s a lot harder than it sounds, and it’s definitely not for everybody.
Well, to be fair, the conversation started off about Joe’s sexuality, and Danny’s question was outwardly framed as one directed to Joe’s sexuality. Joe was just perceptive enough to realize that Danny’s question has another layer to it, focused on Danny’s sexuality instead. Joe’s complaint is “Why can’t a conversation about my own sexuality stay about my own sexuality?”
Notably, Danny has asked Joe a similar question before, but it really WAS pointed at Joe’s sexuality that time, and a fairly understandable thing to ask in context.
I think he chose the perfect person for this discussion. I mean, it’s obvious that Joe would prefer not to have the conversation, but given his talk about the “parameters” of the conversation it’s evident he’s ready and capable of being the guy to help danny solve the problem.
Yep, this. I mean, it’s Joe, so it’s going to be pretty blunt, but I love how Willis always adds things in I didn’t expect. Joe is clearly communicating 1) I can have this conversation and I understand its importance (although I haven’t had that experience) and 2) Why is every god damn conversation about you? That second one was the nice surprise because, while, yes, it’s not exactly sympathetic in the situation, it really does point out the fact that Joe is constantly listening to Danny (albeit sometimes badly), while Danny seems to never try and listen to Joe (no matter how superficial Joe may be). Friendship is a two way street and there is a sense in which Joe has actually been a better friend than Danny (although also in really shitty ways). I just love the complexity.
Bingo! I don’t know why nobody else seems to see this. While Joe doesn’t want to talk about feelings in general, this makes it very obvious he would totally be there for Danny if need be. It doesn’t even imply that gay feelings are especially bad as far as feelings go.
Actually I think he picked probably the third best person (after Leslie and Roz) to have this talk with. Joe is super comfortable with his sexuality, and hasn’t shown any kind of homophobic behavior, the problem here is that Joe isn’t good at talking in this indirect way Danny was trying for, if he had just been upfront about it, this would have gone a lot smoother.
Problem is, Danny hasn’t met Leslie and he only only knows Roz as “that Congresswoman’s sister who sexed up my roommate”. As far as Danny knows, this is the best choice.
And now I have a new desktop background in the rotation, because I want to be able to see it, giggle, and then show others the big, round knockers I’ve got as my wallpaper.
The fact that comment is simultaneously extremely unlikely and extremely likely for Dina to make (in a sort of quantum mechanics superposition thing) makes that comment twice as funny.
I think he answered it in panel 4: No, of course not. I’ve never considered banging a dude, but I also know this answer is insufficient for your crisis of self-identity, ugh.
It’s not gay when it’s a three-way. With a honey in the middle, there’s some leeway.
(Joe actually strikes me as the sort to not get bent out of shape about being in the same lady as another dude, if that’s what it takes to please her, though he has no interest in doing anything with the other guy himself.)
You might feel differently after watching “orgy of the dead” by ed wood. My friends and I watched it as a group and the surfeit of topless women in it actually caused my straight male friends (including my boyfriend at the time, lol) to be bored of boobs for a while.
Spencer, don’t use “fucking” as a curse word with Joe. You can use any number of other cuss words, but not “fuck”. Unless that’s what you actually want to use?????????? Just keep it in the slipshine.
Yeah, for example you can’t say to Joe “You fucking asshole!” because he’d say something like “No, no, that was last week. Yesterday it was oral, not anal.”
Sundays are for anal, Mondays are for handjobs, Tuesdays are for vaginal, Wednesdays are for intercrural, Thursdays are for oral, Fridays are wildcard free days, and on the seventh day God rested, so Joe stays in with porn.
I think it’s actually kinda weird for someone that hyper-sexual to reject the idea out of hand. “Bisexuality doubles your chances of a date on a Saturday night” and all.
I never liked that line because the math doesn’t work out. It increases your chances for a date by like 5-10%. Maybe a little more considering it’s college.
Joe’s really ethically strict, he’s just got a different set of them than most characters. It’s nice to see.
And here, the expected response from the stereotype Joe seems to be would be annoyance/revulsion at Danny possibly being gay, but instead it’s because his friend isn’t being straightforward.
I think it’s that he’s not outraged that Danny might be gay and ew gay, he’s outraged because godDANNIT, he had things to do today other than helping his best friend navigate the deep and confusing waters of sexuality! You want to bang dudes, go and bang dudes, tell him about it later, but GO AND BANG DUDES WITHOUT ASKING HIM IF IT’S OKAY TO BANG DUDES FIRST.
Joe is not immature. he is possibly the most mature. He has these things all figured out and he is frustrated that his friends are so far behind him. He is, in fact, so mature that women in grad programs who are his friends’ teaching staff have sex with him. Joe lives in the most mature space of all the undergrads in this comic.
Joe has no impulse control when it comes to sex, doesn’t like to stop and consider the consequences, and no idea how he’ll survive once college is over. The worst part is that Joe actually thinks he’s got it all worked out. But he can’t sustain this life, no matter how badly he wants to.
You do realize that fuckability is not the same thing as maturity? I mean yeah, he has done the do with at least one older woman that we know of, but “older women being totally onboard with fucking him” =/= “mature”.
yeahh… I really don’t think Joe is mature, or rather I hope he will evolve a bit. He wants sex more than anything else and is open about it, good for him, but not being able to be there for your BEST friend because of how self-centered you are is bad – and this strip is not the first time we’ve seen him abandon Danny when he opens up about important stuff. This COULD not be a matter of maturity, but I really hope Joe becomes a better person and is ready to listen to Danny for once
I think Joe has an excellent foundation on which to build maturity, though he’s no further along in the project than his peers are at this point in time, if that makes any sense. He understands the idea of consent far better than most horndogs (and even a helluva lot of Nice Guys, frankly), and is firm about not wanting to violate it. He also has empathy, in the sense that he can see what other people are feeling, even if he’d rather not.
Meanwhile, Danny’s foundation is made up of quicksand, and Billie & Ruth managed to find an active volcano.
Dorothy and Walky, meanwhile, have found a nice little fixer-upper in a hurricane zone: needs work, and will need to be built to weather the storms, but pretty good regardless.
I agree, Freemage. While I don’t hold up Joe as a wonder of maturity right now (I think his rather one-note), and while I think both Danny and Joe need to think long and hard about their relationship and why they treat the other as they do, I think Joe has a pretty easy transition into actual maturity in front of him (for dumbing of age standard, anyway).
Basically, one day he will say. “Eh, maybe there’s more to life than having lots of sex. Hmmm. Let’s get a new hobby and start paying attention in class,” and that will be it.
Danny on the other hand will be kicked in the balls by life A LOT before he says. “Hmmm. Maybe my self worth isn’t exclusively defined by other people.” (To be fair, part of Danny’s problems is his rotten luck – he didn’t HAVE to fall for a vigilante with daddy issues AND run into her daddy, and the first dude he falls for didn’t HAVE to be firmly closeted, but there you go.)
I get the feeling that both Joe and Dorothy changed quite quickly in the end of high school while Danny was left behind. That’s why the breakup came as such a shock for him while Dorothy thought it was obvious that it was coming up (and hoped that Danny would see it for himself).
Both of them came to college fully prepared to start something new and glorious and with a well thought out plan for how it was going to be. Danny came to college with the idea of everything just being as it always had. Then reality kicked him in the balls.
Ehh, questioning your sexuality isn’t really a ‘not growing up’ thing, and asking a friend who’s more experienced with such matters isn’t a bad idea, but I wouldn’t be expecting that much subtlety from Joe anyway. I think it’s more he’s pissed that now Danny’s going to need him to be ~emotionally supportive~ and all that crap rather than just going “Woo nice!” and moving on.
Maybe I’m missing something here but isn’t Joe saying he’s pissed because Danny is being unclear and Joe wants to do the right thing, but Danny is making it difficult for him …
If so Joe is being about as supportive and non-judgemental as he is capable of … and the judgmental part is about Danny being wishy-washy not about Danny’s sexuality …
I don’t think Joe is incapable in this scene, he is just impatient. He just came back from living in the sexual world of 25-35 year olds (grad students). Here is now stuck in the 17-20 year old category again. Of course he is impatient.
My take: Joe is pissed because he’s living his dream right now, but Danny isn’t behaving like the wingman that Joe wants him to be. Ultimately, I think Joe is pissed because Danny is forcing him to deal with emotions and feelings.
As a bisexual, I can’t imagine asking how big a dude’s balls are, at least not in the same way as boobs. Maybe if the dude was worried about testicular cancer.
I agree – it would be ridiculous. I just tried to figure out how bro-speak would translate to dude-sex if you don’t put to much thought into it (which, fair or not, is how I figure Joe would do it).
Let’s go!
It’s guy love, don’t compromise,
The feeling of some other guy.
Holding up your heart into the sky.
I’ll be there to care through all the lows,
I’ll be there to share the highs…
It’s guy love
Between
Two
Guys
“Danning it up” is to Dumbing of Age comments as “really makes you [x]” is to Clickhole comments on Facebook.
That is to say, it’s very “why won’t it just fucking die already?”
But he is probably the right person for Danny to go to. This is a scary conversation for anyone to have, and it makes sense for Danny to have it with his best friend. Feeling safe with the other person, and trusting them to accept you is very important.
(Of course, he could probably go to the LGBT+ student services and get some help, but that is probably as likely to happen as Joyce, Billy, or Ruth getting therapy.)
The way everything was said wasn’t good, but Joe did manage to get across one very important thing: That he’d be there and be a strong ally for him if he was gay.
To an extent I don’t think Danny is being a jerk about it as well. It takes two to tango and these two have been kind of jerks to each other for the past couple weeks.
There are two types of Joe-Danny conversations. Type 1: Joe complains about the state of their relationship. Type 2: Danny talks about himself and his problems.
So far, no one in this comic has demonstrated an understanding of the concept of bisexuality… the saddest thing is, that might actually be pretty realistic.
On the active level, at least, Billie seems to have figured it out. Conceptually, maybe not as much, but then she’s not really the type to think it worth the bother of philosophising over.
I think its rather more that the topic has not been brought up to every character. Like, I’d wager that dorothy knows whats what, and so does joe actually. I’d be baffled if roz didn’t know that one. Sal and/or Walky might actually be knowledgeable of the subject but wouldn’t really see it pertaining to them.
The thing is, this strip is, on its face, a failure on Joe’s part in that regard, because he meant “are you concerned you might not be straight” but said “are you gay”.
honestly, there is no One True Definition, as everybody who IDs as bisexual has a different working definition for themselves, and thats perfectly fine.
the internet consensus right now is that the best definition of bisexual is: “if you feel attraction to both your own gender and others, then its okay for you to call yourself bisexual”.
A common definition for pansexual is “if you feel attraction regardless of gender, you can call yourself pansexual”.
there are plenty of other orientations but those two are the most common of the ones that include attraction to more than a single gender.
last note: just because an orientation might describe you doesn’t automatically de facto mean you are of that orientation. These are all just suggested definitions, as sexuality is a deeply personal and individual experience, so you cannot proscribe somebody else’s sexuality to them. You can suggest what might sound right, but only that person can actually decide if they are or are not that sexuality. for example, I experience attraction to multiple genders, but I don’t really ID as bi- or pan-. For me, I think the best one is “generally kinda undefinably queer”.
It’s basically having the capacity for sexual attraction to both men and women. Gender preferences are possible and even relatively common. While I’m at it, I may as well mention some important facts: bisexuals can be anywhere on the asexual spectrum (except totally asexual, of course) and the romanticism spectrum, are no more inclined to promiscuity or polyamory than anyone else, can prefer one gender over another, and don’t need to have dated both genders to know that they’re attracted to both.
Danny, for instance, seems to tend to prefer women, and though he hasn’t dated any men, he knows he’s attracted to at least one. Of course, if it turns out he’s really hardly ever attracted to men, he could identify differently, like rezby above does (also, Erika Moen, a certain Walkyverse character, etc.).
Yup, you nailed it when you explained it for me yesterday, timemonkey – Joe and Danny are both hurt and huffy because their childhood friend is not having fun on their terms. Danny want to talk touchy-feely stuff and Joe want to bone ladies and high-five afterwards. Both want the other one to get on the program.
I LOVE Danny’s comment i the second panel. “It’s a damn question about sex! NOW can you pay attention to me?”
Yea, I feel kind of bad for them. I’m pretty sure they like and care about one another. If only they could just compromise for a bit and find some common ground again…
I think I understand what you mean, but I can’t agree. People can have (safe/consensual) sex all they want, but if my friends start expecting me to want to hear about their sex lives, they’ve got another thing coming.
I don’t know if its sharing the intimate details as much as joining in and congratulating Joe on another conquest since Joes self-worth does seem to tie into sexual conquests
So when Danny ignores Joes conquests hes essentially ignoring Joe…maybe
Goddammit, now I have a reason to think of Joe as a complex character, and not the cardboard cutout I saw previously. It was easier to hate him that way >:T
Maybe try making that argument without being sexist about it. Also, if we want to talk about ignoring, let’s talk about all the times Joe didn’t give a damn about Danny.
chris73 isn’t being sexist, he’s implying Joe is sexist, which he may or may not, on some level, but that’s a whole other can of worms. Your other point, though, is completely valid; Joe has been very callous in that regard.
I thought his point in the last panel was that he’d must rather receive a high-five and a slap on the back from Danny than an unwanted conversation about feelings. Did you see something different?
I saw it as Joe is willing to be there for his friend, provided Dan is clear enough that he (Joe) understands what Dan needs/wants from him, but on the flip side, Joe feels like every time he shares something he finds important (sex) with Dan, Dan is not supportive of his friend and instead brings the entire focus onto Dan’s issues and what Dan’s going through.
Joe would like a little support, too. He just needs a different kind of support than Dan. 🙂
I don’t understand the Joe hate. I would infinitely rather more men acted like him – he actually presents his intentions right up front. If he wants to bang you, you know it, and you can provide him with a clear yes or no at your discretion, after which he will either bang you or leave you alone. It’s the men who hide their intent who are the real dickheads – with them, you’ve always got to wonder if they’re doing nice things because they’re good people or if they’re doing nice things in order to ply you for sex. And this is coming from a giant lesbian, so you know I’m not just biased by his boneability.
I actually agree; as obnoxious as he can be, he takes “no” for an answer and, better yet, wants an enthusiastic “yes”. And I’m impressed with his handling of this situation. All of this goes to show just how awful men can be that I’m like “Yeah, gettin’ consent! Not bein’ homophobic! MAN OF THE YEAR!!”
(It’s probably too late to preempt the #notallmen, but I’m a queer woman married to a dude, and some of my favorite people in the world are men. But guys who rate women on a numerical scale and hit on any above a certain threshold are usually crummy.)
Not to mention he doesn’t seem to have any issues with interacting with women who have said they’re not going to bone him; he’s not one of those assholes who ignore or dismiss you if you aren’t going to put out.
Plus he’s said that making sure his partner is also having a good time is an important component of sex, so he’s not just all “wham bam thank you ma’am.” Which is probably part of the reason he’s so successful; word like that (or the opposite) tends to get around pretty quickly.
I’ve always liked Joe as a character. I honestly had no idea anyone else hated him until this comments section.
I have this feeling that Joe is actually compensating for something like insecurity about his parents not loving him enough or something like that.
I think Mike or Dorothy is probably the most self-aware character. Dorothy is highly analytical and probably usually has a good grip on why she’s doing anything, and Mike is probably pretty aware that he is, in the memorable words of Holden Caulfield, “about as sensitive as a goddamn toilet seat.”
Dorothy can’t even decide whether or not if she wants what’s she has with Walky to be permanent or not, so she’s not really that self aware of her own feelings.
They’re both jerks when it comes down to it. Neither Joe nor Danny can put their own isssues/interests down for long enough to be supportive of the other.
No, there’s about four categories in the world according to Joe: “Women I’ve fucked”, “Women I’d like to fuck”, “People I don’t want to fuck”, and “Rocks”. Well, perhaps some of the “Rocks” serve as food, but that’s a secondary concern.
Oh god I remember being in high school and being so uncomfortable with any male sexualization. Even as a college freshmen I still was getting settled into my sexuality. I was aware of bisexuality, but felt that I wasn’t bisexual because I didn’t want to have sex with men. So finding a man cute or attractive was very confusing. It was liberating coming to understand sexuality as a spectrum, and realizing that like so many girls I can find a same sex person pleasing to look at, even crush worthy, but still have no interest in their sexual equipment.
At least Danny hasn’t encountered the most (to me, anyway) annoying bit of ignorance on the subject there is: the interpretation of someone in a relationship saying that they’re bi meaning “I want both at the same time.”
But this is DoA, and there’s a long time left for stupidity yet. I’m sure this confusion will appear sometime.
Sexual feelings are weird and it’s hard to figure them out sometimes. A lot of people have a hard time viewing sexuality as anything other than “gay” and “straight.” Even Billie describes herself as only sometimes liking girls.
Drew in Shortpacked put it best.
“At first I thought I liked girls, then I thought I liked dudes, and then it took me a while to admit I liked both.”
I’m not convinced that ANY of them have heard of Bisexuals. They exist in some sort of bubble, unable to access what is to us the most basic knowledge there is, forever sheltered into some constricting ideal of perfection which is already in itself quite flawed. If you ask me, which you didn’t, that is where things went wrong. You should NEVER restrict someone to only a small and limited understanding of the world around them.
One of our problems as a society, and one discussed in many quality comics is that evil comes from the attempt to create pure good. It CAN’T be done. STOP TRYING!
Children become corrupt over time, simply out of fact. If you don’t embrace it when they are young… Well I exist, don’t I? Let your kids play with fire folks. You’re only saving them burnings later in life. }:)
But then, I suppose it’s your decision. Go ahead, lock them up! Hold them back! Filter their internet, give them nothing to believe in or try out for themselves! Keep them from exploring! See what comes of it! I promise you when that blaze comes to surface, MUAHAHAHAHAAAAAA! Don’t you wish you’d listened to me now? Don’t you? They got matches, and they let it BURN!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!
Eep! NO! Don’t!!! GAH! I’ll reign her in, but for now… read around the evil or not at all! She’s CRAZY! No wait, that’s me. Crud, how can I say that correctly?
First he’d have to be aware that bisexual erasure is a thing, and first before that he’d have to be aware that bisexuality is also a thing.
Growing up in a small town in Northern Canada in the Seventies, I barely was aware that guys could be gay, and didn’t really have any idea of what that entailed. I didn’t even know it was possible for women to be attracted to anyone other than guys, and cross-dressing was 100% limited to the ugly stepsisters in the annual local pantomimes. The concept of bisexuality (let alone pansexuality) was completely off my radar.
I think that my life would have been very different if I’d realized a lot earlier that there was more than just the two cis-genders, because I certainly don’t fit into that mould, and it made me very awkward and insecure, and deeply uncomfortable with sexuality, even on TV.
Joe also seems to understand that emotions aren’t his strong suit and that successfully treating Danny with the patience he needs is going to be hard work. It would be very easy for Joe to just dive in and say a series of confusing and hurtful things, but he sees that train wreck and is doing a hell of a lot better job than Danny at trying to avoid it.
Now I’m confused. Is Joe saying “No, of course not” in response to whether he’s ever thought about having sex with a guy, or to Danny asking him if he would treat him differently if he were gay? The way I’m seeing it, Danny being gay is what “changes the parameters of the conversation.”
If that’s the case, I hate Joe even more now. I thought he was at least saying “It’s cool if you’re gay, now stop danning everything up” but here it just sounds like he’s ignoring something really important to Danny.
The “no of course not” is Joe’s normal answer to the question. As in for himself he has not ever had that feeling. the other half of it is basically Joe not wanting to have to go through some sort of self descovery bs with danny. Joe really isnt equipped for that kind of journey anyway. Mentally, not physically, hes got the right bait and tabkle but its just not the game hes looking for.
He’s saying that if Danny’s gay, it would change his answer to the first question (“ever considering intercoursing on an XY-type person?”) so I think he’s actually offering to be supportive, albeit in a really dickish way (“holding your hand through some excruciating self-discovery.”)
I don’t think Joe would care one way or the other if Danny were gay. He just wants to cut to the chase, have Danny make whatever discovery he needs to make, and get on with his life.
If that’s the measure for asshole, Danny’s been a total asshole to Joe too.
Danny (and myself) might think that Joe’s sexual conquests are kind of stupid and uninteresting, but to Joe they’re an important part of his life right now, and I struggle to think of a time that Danny hasn’t reacted to them with snideness, dismissal, or derision.
Danny’s also done this to Dorothy’s ambitions and Amazi-girl’s “I want you to know my secret identity.” He rejected both realities to substitute his own– to the detriment of all parties involved, up to and including himself– just because the narratives didn’t work out the way they did in his head.
Joe’s feelings aside, Danny really does need to stop being like that. It’s hurting people.
It actually sounds to me like he’s asking if it’s very important to Danny.
If it’s not important, the answer’s ‘no of course not’ (I suspect because if Joe had an ounce of bi-ness he’d have been bragging about the hot dudes along with the chicks). If it IS important, he knows to be on ‘handholding and feelings’ duty. As Danny’s best/oldest friend, he knows that that’s his role.
The answer changes the parameters of the conversation; either it’s shooting the breeze or Danny is having a Danny-crisis, and Joe’s response is different in each one.
It’s not that Joe cares whether or not Danny’s gay, but whether or not Danny’s gay/bi does kind of change the meaning of his question.
If Danny’s not attracted to men, the question is just about about Joe’s sexuality, and Joe can just say no, of course he doesn’t like dudes.
If Danny is attracted to men, the question is really about his own sexuality, and Joe feels obligated as a friend to hand-hold him through the self-discovery process (which he really doesn’t want to do.)
So he is ignoring something really important to Danny, but it’s not his sexuality – it’s his feelings.
Yes, and where the frustration comes in is that if it’s the first, then why the hell can’t Danny just be happy for him, while if it’s the second then why the hell did it have to be today when he just got back from closet time with Penny?
What did the what what now? Oh whoa, did one of the people what do the Patreon thing finally spill the proverbial beans about the next-day comic like so much biblical seed? And then poor Willis had to chop a bunch of comments in half Solomon-style?
Ah. I’m actually amazed it took this long for something like that to happen. I was a patron for a while, but currently am not (budgeting), and there was one time during the Becky confession strips where I posted here arguing that Joyce yelling at Sarah did not mean she was getting in a fight with Sarah, and I posted those comments knowing the next day’s strip definitely did not feature Joyce feeding Sarah a knuckle sandwich as many non-patrons were predicting. I tried to make sure my refutation of those predictions were based entirely on the current strip, and I’d done the same thing in the Patreon comments the day before, but on the other hand I guess I was making the argument the second day more confidently since I already knew the outcome, and I worried I was stepping over the line at the time.
I felt it was better that I just stuck to commenting on the Patreon threads after that. Not that I ever did a lot of commenting to begin with. I can’t imagine being someone to comment on both sides every day while keeping my future-knowledge in check.
Yeah, that’s the main reason I’m not a Patreon patron; I wouldn’t be able to post my (admittedly infrequent) predictions for tomorrow’s update in these here comments if I had actually read tomorrow’s update.
Hah, been thinking the exact same thing. Joe wants a simoly life revolving around sex, and Walky wants one recolving around fast food. Ultimately, neither can have what they want.
Okay if Joe feels like constantly talking about feelings and shit is obnoxious he has to realize that keeping everything strictly superficial is equally freaking obnoxious. Like why the hell would Danny be bringing this shit up out of the blue? One of the nasty consequences of having relationships with other human beings is that occasionally you will have to help them through some self discoveries. You will have to talk about “feelings and shit.”
I don’t know maybe Joe will prove himself to have hidden depths in the end but how he handles this will likely decide if he and Danny’s friendship is going to last and if it ends maybe that would be for the best? Like clearly they are looking for other things in friendships and romantic relationships. Sometimes you’re only friends with people because they were THERE for the majority of your life. Maybe his romantic relationship with Dorothy wasn’t the only thing that had run its course by the end of their senior year.
Idk, panel 4 seems to suggest that Joe is quite aware of that, and that’s why he asked if he’s gay. Danny isn’t being honest about why he’s asking though, so Joe can’t have that conversation.
I don’t know. I get what you’re saying and I get how this could be frustrating for Joe if this is how Danny deals with any major life event, just tiptoeing over how he’s feeling and not directly saying what’s bothering him. But Joe’s immediate frustrated response rubs me the wrong way even with the understanding of a likely history. I guess I’m just more sympathetic towards Danny at this moment because he’s dealing with something very real here so in response I’m way less forgiving of Joe.
It’s a wild guess, but I suspect Joe is running from “feelings and shit”. He’s been very reluctant to even acknowledge that they exist, let alone that they matter. I think that Joe wants to continue to ignore feelings for as long as he can, even though it’ll ultimately prove to be futile.
I’m a little confused by a lot of the responses here. My reading of panel 4 is not that Joe is against having an emotional conversation with Danny, rather that he’s very willing to have it if it’s appropriate, and that he’s frustrated by the ambiguity Danny is presenting.
It feels more like he wants a very clear sense of whether he should be blowing this off as a stupid question or taking it really seriously because the conversation would be very important to his best friend. He’s just extremely blunt about it, like he is with most things.
That could be the case and likely is. I mean I understand how ambiguity could be frustrating but this is delicate subject matter he’s bringing up I can’t really fault Danny for not wanting to immediately just blurt out what he’s feeling. Joe’s immediate frustrated reaction doesn’t help things.
Keep in mind that Joe and Danny have a lot of history, and Danny very likely pulls this kind of ambiguous not saying what you mean and trying to indirectly seek validation thing regularly. It gets old, especially if you’re if a very direct no nonsense personality type.
Yeah I responded to you upthread and could probably just cut and paste it here but again I think the fact that Danny is going through something so real makes me way more sympathetic towards him right now than Joe even understanding that they likely have a history.
Yeah, and that’s totally cool. It isn’t that Joe is being nice here; he totally isn’t. It’s more that he’s being reasonable about the level of tolerance and patience that he has for this kind of thing, that is not very much. If Danny needs him, he’ll be there, but he’s signaling that he’s not up dealing with the vagueness. And that is absolutely not a nice thing to do it you really care about someone, but it’s also not something anyone should simply expect as a default either, it’s exhausting to deal with, especially if it’s frequent and consistent.
I saw Joe’s frustration as a “why are you always bringing up so many feelings” thing, because that’s how Joe has shown himself to be with Danny before, but your reading seems pretty possible too. It’s a question of here exactly Joe’s frustration is coming from and there’s not really a clear answer yet.
See I think a lot of the Joe/Danny dynamic, and especially the feelings stuff, is not so much about Joe not caring about feelings in an absolute sense, but more about Joe having an extremely low tolerance for drama. Danny’s issues have typically been around being mopey, wishy-washy, clingy, or making obviously bad decisions. Joe is very direct, and doesn’t seem to have much patience for other people not being so, he seems to view most of what Danny has been coming to him about as self inflicted harm and stupidity.
That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t deal with what he would consider legitimate problems with concern and respect; his response about the parameters of the conversation changing from answers to feelings doesn’t seem to suggest he has a problem with it falling down in favor of feelings, just that he doesn’t want to deal with having to guess and play games about what Danny actually means.
Oh, Joe. I do like that his response to Danny having a crisis about dudes is the same as his response to Danny having a crisis about girls. It’s the same either way. He doesn’t want to deal with the feelings.
I mean, it’s kind of a jerk response, but it’s consistent and doesn’t seem to care that his BFF and roomie might be not-straight.
Though I think Danny needs advice from someone who’s on the same wavelength as him, because Joe is not.
The worst part is that, when you don’t use something, you tend to be unable to use it properly.
Joe has probably suppressed is ability to empathize and emote to the point where he might not be able to even have a ‘real’ moment with someone else. That outer shell of horny college student might be all there is to him.
Eh, I dunno. I spent a big part of my life trying not to feel anything and avoiding discussions about emotions, and I’m a girl. Amber has said similar things in this very comic. I think it’s a pretty relatable story trope. Although I’d like to see it deconstructed more often. It’s not really a healthy mindset for anyone.
If I may pry, why did you try to suppress your emotions? If my understanding of cultural memes are correct, women are given far larger leeway with their emotions.
But we are still considered “weak” for dong so.
Culturally speaking of course. I’m stubborn as a mule and use my emotions to back me up on that kind of thing.
“Social Cost” comes in two forms. Social movement down, and restriction of social movement up. Why do you think all the fighters in action movies wear black and are cold hearted killers? because that’s what it takes. We don’t get to be all feely if we want to be above the standard acceptance level.
What’s more, we are not allowed to care. You should see me trying to get others to care. They do worse – they degrade my causes with things they don’t even care about. The moment you STAND for anything, everyone else just wants to cut you back down.
Unless I am thinking of the wrong emotion set? Enlighten me, what is it we females are allowed to feel without being restricted to our places like some pathetic
THAT’S QUITE ENOUGH FROM YOU MISSY! I apologize, All Hail Dina has been acting quite moody lately. But she does have a few points:
The female superheroes we attach to are generally hard, cold, and attempting to have no emotions. See Raven (Teen Titans) and Go-Go (Big Hero 6) for some examples, though there is also Erin (Farscape) to turn to. And we don’t seem to have a high emotion allowance for anyone really. You say that there isn’t social cost for a woman showing emotion, but you forget our current social status. Socially, the same people who believe men should have no emotions would be the same ones that hold women as already at a lower status.
What All Hail Dina DOESN’T get, is that she can’t start getting pissy at other commenters for no reason.
(Please let me know before you go blocking my All Hail Dina character. I am trying to use her to push my boundaries a little bit… Because that requires using tainted judgement and not being on my best behavior, that might lead to some line crossing, and I’d prefer a warning or two so that I know where the lines are BEFORE rash action is taken.) (Yes, I read the rules for this reason, though I should probably read them again to make sure I’m well aware what you have specifically said not to do while I’m purposely being bad.)
… You’ll probably see a new comment tomorrow, once Willis approves it, but I went a little far evil, so there’s a chance it may not get approved. We’ll have to see.
Re: moderation on that All Hail Dina post, I think it just tripped the auto-moderation filter due to including multiple URLs. It’s a general anti-spam measure, not necessarily a specific “All Hail Dina needs to be moderated always” setting.
No, but that does mean that the post gets checked before it gets published, so Willis may very well decide something is too risky to get published, even though the moderation is for a different reason.
I hesitate to say “without social cost”. As a woman myself, I find that as soon as you do show that you’re upset about anything (as opposed to simply saying “that pisses me off” or some statement like that but without showing an emotion [other than anger, which has more leeway]), you are instantly dismissed.
Like, sometimes there’s eye-rolls and sometimes there’s concern, but the concern rarely seems to actually be a “by golly that would be upsetting, let’s deal with the upsetting thing” sort of thing, and more along the lines of “oh dear, now you’re all upset. Let’s deal with you being upset.” The focus of the discussion instantly becomes that the person is upset, do you want to take a moment, maybe go splash some water on your face, do you need a kleenex? And the reason they’re upset falls by the wayside (or else is used in a condescending manner: “Aw, honey, that would make me upset too! Here, have a hug and let’s talk about something else that’s not upsetting.”)
Yes, we’re allowed more leeway with certain emotions that can be seen as moments of weakness than a guy would be, but they are still used to dismiss our actual concerns.
I find it very hard, myself, to talk honestly about things that really upset me or anger me without crying, and I hate that in myself, because instantly the tears becomes the focus and what I’m upset about is ignored. It’s a very annoying physiological reaction to strong emotion that I have a very hard time stopping that occasionally gets me accused of trying to be manipulative (because why else would a woman in an argument cry, amirite?) when I am not; I just can’t always stop it.
TL;DR: There’s little/no belittling for showing emotion the way a guy would get; but I wouldn’t say there’s no social cost at all.
I don’t want to speak for anyone but as a woman whose tried and failed at times to not feel shit…Just because it’s considered more or less socially acceptable for women to express their feelings that doesn’t exempt us from the toll of actually feeling them. Feelings can be uncomfortable, gross, embarrassing. People still judge you for feeling them. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been called hysterical or made to feel fucking ridiculous just because I was the more emotional person in the moment. There’s also dealing with the fact that women being emotional is also a stereotype and sometimes you don’t want to be a freaking stereotype. You want to be taken seriously and heard and being too caught up in “feelings” gets in the way. I tend to tear up when I’m feeling something particularly strongly like anger or frustration and that’s a really inconvenient time to be doing that when I want to be taken seriously. Not just be the weepy woman. Feelings can be inconvenient sometimes it seems like it would be so much easier to turn them off.
Should be considered that the reason it’s acceptable for women to show feelings is that showing emotion is “feminine” (read in context: weak, inferior).
That sucks. Personally I think guys have it worse in this instance. Obviously, problems aren’t evenly divided by gender but, with the possible exception of anger, there is definitely pressure on guys to be less expressive than women. There’s enough reasons to want to stupidly bottle stuff up without the rest of the world telling you to do just that.
Well, it depends on the emotion. Stoic resolve, rage, lust, snarky flippancy, and even embarrassment can be expressed by men without being made to feel ‘weak’.
I think I described most of the emotional range of the Avengers…
Yeah, that’s pretty much it. All that about “weepy woman” stereotypes is also correct but, bottom line: If feelings feel gross, I don’t care how socially acceptable it is to feel them, I still don’t want to. circa. 2008
All cultural conditioning aside, sometimes emotions can be overwhelming and ignoring them can deceptively seem like a successful method of dealing. It was a good five years of hardcore avoidance before it caught up to me and I could see tangible consequences of said avoidance.
I really don’t see panel 4 as Joe being unwilling to talk about feelings as much as Joe being unwilling to put up with Danny being vague. It isn’t a contradiction to be anti drama and not be anti feelings, and it isn’t clear that Joe actually falls into that trope, especially in the way that, say, Walky tends to.
It could be so. Then again, I’ve never seen Joe be anything other than horny or annoyed. At least, I can’t remember him being something other than either of those two emotions. That’s a rather small range.
Y’know, I just now noticed that clicking the comments link below the comic takes you to the bottom of the comments and clicking the one in David’s post about the comic takes you to the top of the comments.
So… i’m actually real proud of Joe here… Annoyed that he doesn’t /really/ want to help Danny, but proud of him for actually giving a somewhat straight answer.
Kudos for Joe on Not Being A Douche and Danny, Danny PLEASE talk to your girlfriend. Being Bi is a thing and I’m 70% sure if you were to have an honest conversation with Amber, learn the whole ‘Ethan is gay’ thing and have an honest talk with each other you might be able to enjoy an emotionally safe hook-up between your girlfriend’s hot ex, yourself and your girlfriend. Please just talk to each other dear god people.
Having followed this for years. Joe is my hero. Not because he’s a slut or whore. not because he doesn’t care, but because Joe cares about love and pleasure above all else. Joe is NOT homophobic. Joe is a cis dude. but he does NOT lament peoople being non cis. Joe is smart. He’s super freaking intelligent. And all he freaking cares about is people be honest. You are a dude. like women, dont apologize for it. you are a gay dude. like guys. hunt them but dont go too far. you are a woman that like women, go get them but try not to scare them off. Joe doesn’t care. not one bit. As long as love and lust exist Joe is joe.
While I agree, I think you mean “straight” rather than “cis”. Him not being homophobic doesn’t really say anything about what he thinks of non cis people, though I’m sure he’s totally cool with that, too.
If traits are being carried over from the Walkyverse, Joe is probably really damn smart, but just prefers ladies to science. We already know that he’s a closet nerd in the Dumbieverse.
I’m reading that last panel as Joe lamenting the fact that he can’t have a stereotypical “bromance” with Danny. Because while a lot of people are like “Yeah! Joe *gets* it” I also feel he could be the kind of guy who doesn’t feel comfortable around gay guys. And I dunno. Let’s see what happens.
I read the last panel the same, but I don’t think a stereotypical bromance requires Danny to be straight. Without getting into the size of knockers, maybe, when Joe says “I was ‘studying gender’ anyway, if you get my meaning,” Danny could say, “Cool! High five!” instead of “I’ll try not to.”
But I agree, Joe might also be the kind of guy who’s uncomfortable around gay guys. We shall see…
For all his complaints.. he just totally admited he’d be there for him if he was having some big crisis.. He just wants to know which one he’s getting into first. Joe’s always impressed me somewhat at that aspect. in this and Walkyverse. He seems like he’s flippant or self centered but man when anyone he cares about is having some sort of trouble he’s right fucking there ready to help.. he just doesnt always konw whats going on
You know, I’m really not surprised this is Joe’s response. He doesn’t like dealing with feelings and emotions, and all that kind of stuff, all he’s ever talked with Danny about is banging, and this has been one of many times that he’s brushed away any of Danny’s concerns/questions.
In a way, I actually kind of like Joe isn’t disgusted by the fact that Danny could be bi/gay and is only asking because dealing with his self-discovery on what he is would just be a hassle – because it involves talking about feelings and ew feelings.
I’m not saying Joe is a great guy here, but he’s a lot better than he could’ve been. Hopefully in the next couple of updates he can give Danny some kind of Joe advice.
I mean, a lot of you are saying that panel 4 indicates Joe’s willingness to support Danny, but I don’t know, “handholding you through some excruciating self-discovery” — with a scowl on his face — sounds like “well I’ll do it if you make me.” Sounds like passive-aggressive BS to me. And the answer to “does it matter?” should be no! Joe can just answer the question without first whining about the possibility of feelings.
And why should we be encouraging Joe’s empty, at-times-gross sex crusade anyway?
I think his problem is that it always seems to be about Danny.
I mean, dan is assumedly hoping joe will support him, but can you name one time when joe has talked about what he’s up to and gotten any kind of approval or support from Dan? I certainly can’t.
You know, between the stubble, mussed up hair, and the bags under his eyes, Joe is looking rather thoroughly debauched. Which is probably just how he likes it, and I know that in-comic it’s barely a month into the first semester but I really hope he isn’t making a habit of neglecting his studies in favor of getting laid.
I’m actually totally okay with Joe’s reaction here. He’s actually attempting to figure out where Danny is coming from so that he can respond appropriately. He’s not upset at the idea that Danny might be gay, but rather at having to talk about really sensitive issues, which he is well established to hate. He’s reacting roughly the same way he reacted when Danny tried to unload on him about Dorothy. I feel good about this.
Okay, I am surprised I am the only one who had a different reading of this.
Consider for a moment Joe a is closeted bi. Then from his POV, the conversation went like this:
D: “Joe, are you bi?”
J: “…why are we talking about this”.
D: “Just answer the damn question”.
J: “Look, are you a fellow LGBT?”
D: “No”
J: “Well, if you were, I would support you, but as you are not, the answer is of course “no I’m not””
That’s an interesting interpretation. I don’t buy into it for the simple reason that I have never seen Joe try to hide anything from anyone at all, and I have especially never seen him trying to appeal to Danny’s idea of how he should be.
So if Joe was bi I would expect the conversation to go.
“have you ever thought of doing it with a dude?”
“Oh man, yes. There was this bro who had the most massive…”
Of course, not appearing to hide anything is an important part of being closeted. It’s not proof in any way. In fact, I have no reason to believe that Joe is not bi – he did mention threesomes at least once.
But I don’t think that’s what irks him in this conversation. His problem is his former best friend not following his script for how college should be.
I kinda like Joe. Even though he’s a bit of a sex monster, he does follow his own rules and always seems to follow a chain of logic that can always work.
Even here, yeah, it kinda sucks that he’s complaining, but the key phrase is “handholding you through”. Even though he’d be completely uncomfortable, he’d still be willing to help his friend.
He’s being a dick about it, but I understand his point. He wants to know if it’s an honest question or if Danny is trying to come out in kind of a weird way. He knows how to handle one, maybe not the other. But if he knows what this is all about, he’ll know how to react.
Damn… For all the shit Joe may get for giving off that dudebro vibe, he really is a good friend.
He’s the friend you deserve, but not the one you need right now. So we’ll hate him, because he can take it. Because he’s a simple man, kinda dickish. He is fratman.
Is everyone in the comments oblivious to how supportive Joe’s being? Like, he obviously prefers not to deal with shit like this, but if it were down to that, I think he’s gonna turn out to be a real friend.
I always find it interesting that there are always such strong and varied interpretations of the comic. A lot of people took the comment to be that Joe is being a dick and not being supportive, but I (and some others from the comments I read) saw this as Joe is actually being completely supportive of Danny, he just wishes Danny would support him, too.
I don’t see panels 3 and 4 as Joe saying he doesn’t want to talk about feelings, it’s just that he needs to know what where Dan is coming from because if it’s just that Danny is asking a random question, Joe can simply answer, “Hells, no” but if Danny isn’t actually asking “Joe do YOU want to sleep with men” but is instead asking “Joe, is it okay if I want to sleep with men”, then Joe needs to approach the conversation in an entirely different way.
That is key info to know because he doesn’t want to fuck it up and he wants to help his friend.
To me, Joe’s frustration in the whole comic and especially the last panel is that
A) Danny is rarely straightforward, so Joe has to guess at what Danny is really asking and needs from his friend and
B) Danny is very self-centered in their relationship, and turns every conversation into either a judgement on Joe’s life or changes the focus to what Danny is going through, never lending support to Joe and letting the emotional focus of the conversation be about Joe. Friendships are give and take and currently Danny is doing all the taking. Joe doesn’t actually specifically require that Danny comment on the woman’s knockers, but is instead asking for emotional support from his friend on what he (Joe) finds important in life.
I absolutely disagree with (B). There’s ample links elsewhere in this thread, and the comic itself, illustrating that Joe has little to no interest in Danny’s life unless it has potential for bacchanalia.
Joe’s narcissistic tendencies have nothing to do with Danny’s narcissistic tendencies, only in Joe’s perception of Danny’s narcissistic tendencies. In other words, both sides are being jerks to the other, for essentially the same reason: they want different things out of life and can’t see eye-to-eye because of that.
I have no idea how Danny is being narcissistic right now. He’s trying to find some advice from somebody who is his best friend. He can be a bit whiny at times, even if I think most of those times have been completely acceptable, but that isn’t even remotely the case here.
Danny wants Joe to be someone to provide support, Joe wants Danny to be someone to celebrate with.
Both are perfectly normal things to want, but they’re growing into different people who are more comfortable doing the opposite.
Because the strip is centered around the girls, we don’t see who else Joe interacts with. Other than Dan and Jacob, Joe doesn’t talk to many other guys (aside from Walky occasionally). And both of them want a real relationship instead of celebrating casual sex, so it wears on Joe every time Dan wants to talk about feelings.
It’s kind of like the Ted-Barney relationship in HIMYM.
Perhaps I should have said “selfish” instead of “narcissistic”, but neither one is trying to walk in the other’s shoes, which is certainly not an act a narcissist would ever consider.
Right now, Danny, as that deadpan line at the end shows, is being flippant. Not without reason, as Joe is being whiny, but he still isn’t trying to see the problem from Joe’s perspective (and neither is Joe from Danny’s, really).
They are tired of each other and “divorce” certainly seems imminent. This very conversation might even precipitate it.
I like the joeattitude here. 🙂 It’s not that he doesn’t want to help Danny, but he doesn’t want to deal with the drama of evading the point. Because if Danny has homosexual attractions, and even worse, if he has them towards him, then it would require carefull emotional handling.
If it’s a legit question of curiosity, “no” will suffice.
It’s a different context that requires different answers 🙂
Holy crap, was that actual concern from JOE?
…Well then. Didn’t expect that. Frankly I expected Danny to wuss out and wind up dealing with this on his own and eventually with Amazi-Girl’s help. Y’know, eventually. After driving himself into a state of depression and drinking.
Usually I’m fine with Danny and Joe’s banter, but I’m getting tired of it. every conversation they have is the exact same, and now more than ever Danny needs a straight answer but Joe’s being a meathead. I hope this little story thread goes further and we see some actual conflict between the two.
If Danny wants a direct answer, he needs to ask a direct question– and he isn’t. Joe’s calling him out on this exact thing today. The direct answer to Danny’s question is “No, I have never considered banging a dude” but Joe is perceptive enough to know that this isn’t what Danny’s really asking about.
And you’d think, as a friend, Joe would try to hear him out. Joe’s a shitty friend. He’s been a shitty friend from day one.
How do you want Danny to phrase this anyway? “Hey Joe there’s this one guy and he gives me the hardest boner I’ve ever had. What does that mean?”
Discovering your sexuality can be confusing. It’s not a yes or no question. Danny is coming to his friend for some support for something that he doesn’t understand about himself, and Joe’s just being an asshole because “hurrr feelings are dumb i like vaginas.”
I think here it must be borne in mind that Joe has been Danny’s best friend since they were tiny. This is probably how ALL of Danny’s ‘excruciating self-discovery’ conversations start: with Danny steadfastly refusing to ask the question he’s actually asking, thus denying Joe the opportunity to answer the question Danny’s really asking and thus, double-plus bad, causing Joe to miss a catch, so to speak.
It’s exhausting to always have to ask ‘what does that mean’ or ‘is that really what you mean’ after every single thing someone says to you. I don’t blame Joe for wanting a clear idea of Danny’s motivations and expectations of him, even if his phrasing is unkind.
That may be the intended interpretation, but the way he says “Of course not” just feels slimy and a bit homophobic to me. It really only makes sense to say it like that if it was actually an insult to be asked if you had had homosexual feelings, which it’s not.
Also because most of his tone seems accusatory, which I feel is really unhealthy for someone who is…well, pretty obviously struggling with their identity, and shouldn’t be made to feel bad about asking.
I don’t think the “Of course not” is in and of itself homophobic. If you asked Becky whether she had any romantic or lustful feelings for dudes lately, she’d very likely say that too. It’s not whether or not Joe is implying “gay = bad,” it’s whether or not Danny is implying that “Joe = liar” considering Joe has ever only talked about girls.
Joe’s casual/oblivious bi-erasure is a little problematic, I’ll give you that (my friends include more bi women than hetero women and it irks me to see queer-erasure happen), but that’s distracting from the main problem: that Danny won’t get the help he needs with his excruciating self-discovery if he can’t bring himself to drop the pretenses and ask for it directly.
I am impressed, he didn’t open with the expected homophobic statement, and said that his discomfort with the question was due to the potential emotional involvement, rather than the uncomfortable subject matter.
They’ve been together since they were kids. Danny strikes me as the kind of person unable to let go of people once he’s gotten attached to them, while Joe’s waiting for the day Danny starts casual banging like him.
I am, however, hoping that this ends with both of them refusing to do this song and dance for a while. I’m really, really sick of “Danny has a problem, Joe acts like an asshole, repeat ad infinitum.+”
Danny’s such a selfish bastard looking towards his best friend to try and help figure out his uncertainties about his sexuality. Talking about boners is basically all Joe is good for anyway.
Joe’s barely even a bit character. He only exists for played out conversations with Danny and occasionally hanging out with Dorothy.
also i mean he literally was asking about joe here, and trying to associate his issues with joe’s. meanwhile joe is trying to get him to be more open–hes the one turning it back around on to danny
I have a feeling that if danny did come out, Joe’s response would simply be to constantly asked him if he nailed any guys, and then high five if he did.
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Joe prefers to keep the feely out of touchy-feely.
I guess you could call it a touchy subject.
also the touchy
I think it depends on who he’s touchy and feely with.
Yes, what he’s feeling and who’s touching what are very important parameters for Joe.
Well there must be some people out there who aren’t so picky…
Also what he’s touching and who he’s feeling.
Poor Joe. No one understands the hardships he has to go through every day.
“hard”ships. Haha right
I ship JoAllTheWomen.
Touchy-feely is for knockers, not words.
Also, Joe knows how to use the term “parameters” correctly?
Sometimes, Joe actually thinks with his other head.
Wel, he IS an AI-inventing genius… when he puts his mind to it
In the other universe, where he has superpowers. No sign of that in DoA.
Can we get back to her Knockers guys? Please?
“WHAT KNOCKERS!! Can I… touch them?”
“*blushing* Why, of course!”
“Ooooh…. pearl-inlaid brass!”
Joe has a RAGING boner right now 😉
Emphasis on the rage?
Rage boner used Dragonrage.
Somewhere, Ethan is furiously masturbating
Welp, flash-read that as “menstruating.” Lousy subcockscious.
I C wut U did there.
I just cun’t help it!
STAHP! lol (keep going)
“I need to know for door-answering purposes!”
He’s gonna need more socks, if that’s the case.
Can bisexual be argyle? I wanna be argyle.
Then be Argyle! No-one’s stopping you!
Your picture looks so familiar…. What is it from?
You’d think an inside-out sock on a doorknob would mean something truly bizarre and kinky was going on inside, but it’s really just how a asexual person indicates a quiet night of reading, TV, video games, etc. and would prefer not to be disturbed.
Yes. This is forever true. It is forever true and I love it and will have to share it with my various asexual friends.
Wait, are you making that up to be funny, or is that a real thing?
If he is making it up to be funny, it will certainly be a real thing very soon.
… I may be convinced to do it.
Think you chose the completely wrong person to have to conversation with, Danny.
Better him than Mike or God forbid… Hey, where the hell has Faz been, anyways? Amber chuck him in a ditch or somethin’?
I think having this conversation with Mike would actually be pretty simple.
“Is your mom a dude?”
“Uh, no, of course not.”
“Then no.”
That makes me wonder… What would he say to a child adopted by a man in a male-male relationship? “I fucked your father”?
I fucked your surrogate mother?
You are talking about the guy who hated fucked Ethan just out of spite, fucking someone’s father is in the playing field…
Walkyverse Mike is clearly a hate-o-sexual. Gender has little to do with who he sleeps with. I mean, he married Amber, fer chrissakes.
“You know your biological mother?”
“…um… no?”
“I do. I did. For a nickel. I may be your biological father.”
“…I know who my–”
“I never loved you. That’s why I gave you up to those gay dudes.”
“We’re the same ag–”
“After I fucked them both. For a nickel. Each.”
“Look, I’ve had enough–”
“I needed to know I was ditching my worthless child on fuckable parents. They qualified. Barely.”
“Shut up! Just shut up!”
“Go to your room.”
What the frell? LOL! You people can certainly make me laugh sometimes.
I don’t think your mom being a (presumably trans?) dude would stop Mike. He’s had gay sex as part of a prank before, in another universe.
If memory serves, Mike’s official orientation was “whatever pisses the most people off: his capacity for gayness depends on where he lives.”
It is, and I’m quoting (from the other ‘verse, so prepare your grains of salt) “whatever you don’t want me to be.”
Last we saw, Dina tied him up.
She tried to feed him to some dinosaur, but the pigeons wouldn’t devour him no matter how many breadcrumbs she sprinkled him with.
Last we saw she left him with Ruth.
I think it’s safe to say that Faz is devoured by wild dogs.
Well, he was ditched, but it took duct-tape, rope, a grappling hook, and a moody RA to do so. Maybe the Ditch thing is not that isn’t so unlikely after all.
Not sure why, but I thought they mailed him away after tying him up.
“This was sent to me by mistake. Please return it.”
Ruth shipped him to Abu Dhabi.
He can be insufferable with Nermal.
Dina tied him up in a grappling hook and gave him to Ruth.
No, I Ruth mailed him back to his home when Dina asked her to return him. 😛
Talk to Amber. I bet she’ll be glad to hear you’re gay.
For Ethan no less, a guy whose sexuality has already foiled one of her relationships.
I think the term would be bi?
That’s the thing, he isn’t gay. Hes Bi-curious. Talking to Amber might actually be a smarter move than people think.
Maybe an older Amber, a more secure, self-possessed Amber. I think current Amber would be too consumed with “WHAT NOT AGAIN THIS IS JUST LIKE PROM” feelings.
Then again, she could surprise me.
yeah, especially considering how often Amber’s shown that guy on guy turns her on… I keep wondering if a threesome (is three enough to say poly?) relationship with Dan and Ethan would work or not.
None of them are mature or laid back enough to deal with a poly relationship.
Maybe in like 5 or 10 years…but definitely not right now.
Also, a three(or more)some isn’t the same as poly, any more than having sex means you’ll get married. Poly involves long-term, stable relationships with multiple sexual partners. It’s a lot harder than it sounds, and it’s definitely not for everybody.
A poly relationship involving a gay guy and a girl really attracted to him is a recipe for disaster.
Excuse me, I think you mispronounced BEST person to have this conversation with.
Well, maybe not best for Danny, but who cares about him?
Obviously not Joe “why isn’t this conversation regarding your sexuality actually about me” Rosenthal.
It’s also slightly Joe “why is every conversation we have about your emotional turmoil” Rosenthal, which is not unreasonable.
Well, to be fair, the conversation started off about Joe’s sexuality, and Danny’s question was outwardly framed as one directed to Joe’s sexuality. Joe was just perceptive enough to realize that Danny’s question has another layer to it, focused on Danny’s sexuality instead. Joe’s complaint is “Why can’t a conversation about my own sexuality stay about my own sexuality?”
Notably, Danny has asked Joe a similar question before, but it really WAS pointed at Joe’s sexuality that time, and a fairly understandable thing to ask in context.
Danny needs to make more friends to talk too, ones that are less douchey.
He should make friends with Malaya. That’s a great idea! Just be sure to buy a nice red car for her.
Thinking about it in the last universe Malaya had sex with what used to be Danny’s car.
Mike fucks moms.
Malaya fucks cars.
Dang I need to get caught up on the other comics
Malaya does seem like the kind of person who would plug someone’s car’s tailpipe out of spite
But usually with a potato, not a strap-on
I think she and the car prefer pies.
The combination of Mike and Malaya, therefore, would fuck moms’ cars. Minivans? Mikelaya fucks minivans.
Honestly if he actually gets Joe to open up he’s the best friend on the cast. Admittedly making Joe get serious is still a tall order.
I think he chose the perfect person for this discussion. I mean, it’s obvious that Joe would prefer not to have the conversation, but given his talk about the “parameters” of the conversation it’s evident he’s ready and capable of being the guy to help danny solve the problem.
Yep, this. I mean, it’s Joe, so it’s going to be pretty blunt, but I love how Willis always adds things in I didn’t expect. Joe is clearly communicating 1) I can have this conversation and I understand its importance (although I haven’t had that experience) and 2) Why is every god damn conversation about you? That second one was the nice surprise because, while, yes, it’s not exactly sympathetic in the situation, it really does point out the fact that Joe is constantly listening to Danny (albeit sometimes badly), while Danny seems to never try and listen to Joe (no matter how superficial Joe may be). Friendship is a two way street and there is a sense in which Joe has actually been a better friend than Danny (although also in really shitty ways). I just love the complexity.
Bingo! I don’t know why nobody else seems to see this. While Joe doesn’t want to talk about feelings in general, this makes it very obvious he would totally be there for Danny if need be. It doesn’t even imply that gay feelings are especially bad as far as feelings go.
Now I want to see Danny talk to Roz.
Roz would actually probably be able to help.
Joe almost certainly has her number. He probably didn’t expect to use it quite in this way, though!
I think Joe figured it out already. He’s not a very sympathetic ear, but he knows what is going on.
Actually I think he picked probably the third best person (after Leslie and Roz) to have this talk with. Joe is super comfortable with his sexuality, and hasn’t shown any kind of homophobic behavior, the problem here is that Joe isn’t good at talking in this indirect way Danny was trying for, if he had just been upfront about it, this would have gone a lot smoother.
Problem is, Danny hasn’t met Leslie and he only only knows Roz as “that Congresswoman’s sister who sexed up my roommate”. As far as Danny knows, this is the best choice.
Neat-o! How big were her knockers?
TOO LATE
It would probably piss him off to no end for me to say something like this, but Joe is really reminding me of my ex-girlfriend in that last panel.
They were THIS BIG. 😛
Don’t worry, it’s SFW.
That link deserves a slow clap
What’s “SFW”? I’m afraid to click or look that up. Also, mummy girl? Oh wait, name link.
“Safe For Work”. I.E. not pornographic or gory or anything else you wouldn’t want to explain to your boss should he walk by.
SFW = “Safe For Work” as opposed to NSFW which is “Not Safe For Work” which is handy if you are looking at stuff like this at your work computer.
I dunno – my company’s web filter threw up a content warning for falling under the category “weapons”…
The only person who could effectively use those as weapons would be Jackie Chan.
What great knockers!
Yes indeed, you don’t see knockers of that quality very much any more.
“What knockers!”
“Oh, zhank you, Doctor”
Now there is a movie that really holds up.
They must be very well-maintained… cleaned and tightened and polished regularly.
I know I’d love to get my hands on those knockers!
DAMN! Are those hand-hammered wrought iron? Because I would totally hang those on my door to alert me of company!
Sure looks like it. ^_^
The right one looks hammered. I’m guessing the left is wrought, but I have less experience with that.
Okay. Wow, that’s funny.
*Gene Wilder voice* What knockers!
And now I have a new desktop background in the rotation, because I want to be able to see it, giggle, and then show others the big, round knockers I’ve got as my wallpaper.
Joe, feelings are important.
Orgasmic is an emotional state too, ya know?
Hope he doesn’t fart from being lactose-intolerant. That wouldn’t be good for anybody.
What in the absolute fuck?
Not to be rude, but why do you read DoA? The only comments I recall seeing under your name tend to consist of bongoing.
Maybe he likes being annoyed and bongoing in the comments. To each their own, don’t judge 😉
He likes Joyce.
Man, I still remember what happened to Packy. At least he took it like a champ because he’s chill like that.
Yes, Emperor. Fucking is one of the topics in this conversation. Acutally, the main one.
*Clap* *Clap* *Clap*
The fact that comment is simultaneously extremely unlikely and extremely likely for Dina to make (in a sort of quantum mechanics superposition thing) makes that comment twice as funny.
Good job dodging the question, though.
I think he answered it in panel 4: No, of course not. I’ve never considered banging a dude, but I also know this answer is insufficient for your crisis of self-identity, ugh.
My inner lawyer wants to point out that he phrased it as a hypothetical quotation, but yeah, you’re probably right.
Bear in mind he never did work out what sort of threesome it was that night.
It’s not gay when it’s a three-way. With a honey in the middle, there’s some leeway.
(Joe actually strikes me as the sort to not get bent out of shape about being in the same lady as another dude, if that’s what it takes to please her, though he has no interest in doing anything with the other guy himself.)
Well, he didn’t seem upset about being unsure of the threesome category, more like he was just puzzled.
If Joe has that much sex, is it really still ‘neato’ each time?
Not at all.
Some times it’s groovy, or peachy keen.
Other times its surreal and psychedelic and radical.
… but apparently never fabulous …
Ya ya ya so joe you had sex, dude that’s nothing new come back to me when you’ve made REAL progress.
Honestly, no matter how many times I see boobs they are always awesome. So Sure.
You might feel differently after watching “orgy of the dead” by ed wood. My friends and I watched it as a group and the surfeit of topless women in it actually caused my straight male friends (including my boyfriend at the time, lol) to be bored of boobs for a while.
Faster Pussycat Kill Kill Kill! can have that effect too.
Well that went better than I expected.
Still fucking hate Joe, though.
Spencer, don’t use “fucking” as a curse word with Joe. You can use any number of other cuss words, but not “fuck”. Unless that’s what you actually want to use?????????? Just keep it in the slipshine.
Yeah, for example you can’t say to Joe “You fucking asshole!” because he’d say something like “No, no, that was last week. Yesterday it was oral, not anal.”
Sundays are for anal, Mondays are for handjobs, Tuesdays are for vaginal, Wednesdays are for intercrural, Thursdays are for oral, Fridays are wildcard free days, and on the seventh day God rested, so Joe stays in with porn.
I like that you kept Saturday as the Sabbath out of respect for Joe being Jewish.
Me thinks that Joe is a 0 on The Kinsey Scale.
I think it’s actually kinda weird for someone that hyper-sexual to reject the idea out of hand. “Bisexuality doubles your chances of a date on a Saturday night” and all.
I’m not tough enough to want to fuck a bloke, I prefer soft, feminine and 2D.
“Soft”
“Feminine”
“2D” (??)
Ideal sex partner: menstrual pad
2D as in 2D complex or Perverse Sexual Lust.
Oh, but some porn animators are getting REALLY good with the 3-D engines, these days.
Even if anime/cartoon characters are rendered in 3D, they are still 2D in my heart.
Frontman from Gorillaz.
Man, I love Steve Hughes’s routine on that. Fantastic.
That’s where I got my idea from. ^_^
I never liked that line because the math doesn’t work out. It increases your chances for a date by like 5-10%. Maybe a little more considering it’s college.
But Joe’s charms are enough to turn any straight boy gay.
Doesn’t matter, really – sexual orientation isn’t very malleable. You can’t just will yourself into being bisexual.
And yet…
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/01-if-the-shoes-split/exploits/
“Wait, what kind of a threesome did I have last night?” is about as close as Joe comes to questioning his sexuality.
I love is when Joe is outraged for entirely nonstandard reasons.
He’s such a great character here, probably one of the nicest we’ve got.
I really fail to see your logic here.
Joe’s really ethically strict, he’s just got a different set of them than most characters. It’s nice to see.
And here, the expected response from the stereotype Joe seems to be would be annoyance/revulsion at Danny possibly being gay, but instead it’s because his friend isn’t being straightforward.
I think it’s that he’s not outraged that Danny might be gay and ew gay, he’s outraged because godDANNIT, he had things to do today other than helping his best friend navigate the deep and confusing waters of sexuality! You want to bang dudes, go and bang dudes, tell him about it later, but GO AND BANG DUDES WITHOUT ASKING HIM IF IT’S OKAY TO BANG DUDES FIRST.
Well put.
So Joes frustrated that once again Danny can’t make up his mind about anything like a kid
So Joes basically pissed because Danny just won’t grow up?
I can see how that would annoy Joe
I think that’s the way Joe sees it. Of course, you could describe his avoidance of emotions as just as immature.
In the end of the day Danny and Joe want different things from life. Joe wants sex, Danny wants validation.
Sounds about right
Agreed.
Joe is not immature. he is possibly the most mature. He has these things all figured out and he is frustrated that his friends are so far behind him. He is, in fact, so mature that women in grad programs who are his friends’ teaching staff have sex with him. Joe lives in the most mature space of all the undergrads in this comic.
Joe has no impulse control when it comes to sex, doesn’t like to stop and consider the consequences, and no idea how he’ll survive once college is over. The worst part is that Joe actually thinks he’s got it all worked out. But he can’t sustain this life, no matter how badly he wants to.
You do realize that fuckability is not the same thing as maturity? I mean yeah, he has done the do with at least one older woman that we know of, but “older women being totally onboard with fucking him” =/= “mature”.
Especially since that “older woman” was Penny, and we know her philosophy.
yeahh… I really don’t think Joe is mature, or rather I hope he will evolve a bit. He wants sex more than anything else and is open about it, good for him, but not being able to be there for your BEST friend because of how self-centered you are is bad – and this strip is not the first time we’ve seen him abandon Danny when he opens up about important stuff. This COULD not be a matter of maturity, but I really hope Joe becomes a better person and is ready to listen to Danny for once
I think Joe has an excellent foundation on which to build maturity, though he’s no further along in the project than his peers are at this point in time, if that makes any sense. He understands the idea of consent far better than most horndogs (and even a helluva lot of Nice Guys, frankly), and is firm about not wanting to violate it. He also has empathy, in the sense that he can see what other people are feeling, even if he’d rather not.
Meanwhile, Danny’s foundation is made up of quicksand, and Billie & Ruth managed to find an active volcano.
Dorothy and Walky, meanwhile, have found a nice little fixer-upper in a hurricane zone: needs work, and will need to be built to weather the storms, but pretty good regardless.
I agree, Freemage. While I don’t hold up Joe as a wonder of maturity right now (I think his rather one-note), and while I think both Danny and Joe need to think long and hard about their relationship and why they treat the other as they do, I think Joe has a pretty easy transition into actual maturity in front of him (for dumbing of age standard, anyway).
Basically, one day he will say. “Eh, maybe there’s more to life than having lots of sex. Hmmm. Let’s get a new hobby and start paying attention in class,” and that will be it.
Danny on the other hand will be kicked in the balls by life A LOT before he says. “Hmmm. Maybe my self worth isn’t exclusively defined by other people.” (To be fair, part of Danny’s problems is his rotten luck – he didn’t HAVE to fall for a vigilante with daddy issues AND run into her daddy, and the first dude he falls for didn’t HAVE to be firmly closeted, but there you go.)
Come to think of it, Joe’s social circle coming (cumming?) into Indiana University was “Danny, Dorothy, and himself.”
Danny somehow managed to still be an indecisive kid believing in fairy-tale romance after growing up around those two. That’s… kind of amazing.
I get the feeling that both Joe and Dorothy changed quite quickly in the end of high school while Danny was left behind. That’s why the breakup came as such a shock for him while Dorothy thought it was obvious that it was coming up (and hoped that Danny would see it for himself).
Both of them came to college fully prepared to start something new and glorious and with a well thought out plan for how it was going to be. Danny came to college with the idea of everything just being as it always had. Then reality kicked him in the balls.
Ehh, questioning your sexuality isn’t really a ‘not growing up’ thing, and asking a friend who’s more experienced with such matters isn’t a bad idea, but I wouldn’t be expecting that much subtlety from Joe anyway. I think it’s more he’s pissed that now Danny’s going to need him to be ~emotionally supportive~ and all that crap rather than just going “Woo nice!” and moving on.
Maybe I’m missing something here but isn’t Joe saying he’s pissed because Danny is being unclear and Joe wants to do the right thing, but Danny is making it difficult for him …
If so Joe is being about as supportive and non-judgemental as he is capable of … and the judgmental part is about Danny being wishy-washy not about Danny’s sexuality …
I don’t think Joe is incapable in this scene, he is just impatient. He just came back from living in the sexual world of 25-35 year olds (grad students). Here is now stuck in the 17-20 year old category again. Of course he is impatient.
My take: Joe is pissed because he’s living his dream right now, but Danny isn’t behaving like the wingman that Joe wants him to be. Ultimately, I think Joe is pissed because Danny is forcing him to deal with emotions and feelings.
Roomies! Joe would never have said anything as rational and wise as his reasoning in panel 4.
He is born 10 or so years later 😀
Bang dudes, brag about it, high-five. Joe can ask how big his balls were, then they can fistbump. THAT’s how friendship should work on planet Joe.
He wouldn’t approve of Danny and Ethan – too much feeeeeeeels
Also, I’m sure Joe would say, “Dude, that’s totally a Joe clone.”
“Tall, dark, and Jewish, eh? Should I be recontextualizing that picture of us riding the dragon?”
HA! I didn’t even think of that! I bow to your superior commenting skills.
As a bisexual, I can’t imagine asking how big a dude’s balls are, at least not in the same way as boobs. Maybe if the dude was worried about testicular cancer.
I agree – it would be ridiculous. I just tried to figure out how bro-speak would translate to dude-sex if you don’t put to much thought into it (which, fair or not, is how I figure Joe would do it).
I guess if you wanted a 1-to-10 scale to measure dudes on, I’d suggest “how Batman is he?”
Hell, Amber/Amazi-girl would score a 9 or 10 on that scale, and that is awesome, so you can apply it to girls too!
This!
/signed, Regalli, well said!
Joe seems to be a bro worthy of the name. follows code to the T
These guys are really kind of married, huh.
They’re MAN-married, to be precise.
It’s like they’ve married their best friend/
But in a totally manly way
Let’s go!
It’s guy love, don’t compromise,
The feeling of some other guy.
Holding up your heart into the sky.
I’ll be there to care through all the lows,
I’ll be there to share the highs…
It’s guy love
Between
Two
Guys
This sounds like something Elsa and Anna would sing for some reason
Yay! Much love for Scrubs! 😀
Mannied?
Not sure I want Danny as a wife though…
You already danned it up Dan. You can not u-dan now.
You will now spend eternity wondering how big those knockers were.
Joe was not ready for all the feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeels
lings.
Nothing more than
so to use a meme that should be long dead – he kind of danned it up, didn’t he.
“Danning it up” is to Dumbing of Age comments as “really makes you [x]” is to Clickhole comments on Facebook.
That is to say, it’s very “why won’t it just fucking die already?”
It won’t stop until Danny grows past his status as the baseline for all bad decisions in this comic. That is to say, it will be used in perpetuity.
I’d rate them as very nice but attached to someone who needs more compassion.
Its Funny I came here thinking, “OK maybe Joe won’t be an asshole about it evenif its out of his comfort zone,” I was wrong.
Joe is kinda the worst person to go to for advice.
And of course only Danny would think about going to him for help
I don’t think Danny knows (or more accurately feels comfortable with) anyone else to talk to about this subject.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/hancock/
He knows of someone. He hates that someone.
But he is probably the right person for Danny to go to. This is a scary conversation for anyone to have, and it makes sense for Danny to have it with his best friend. Feeling safe with the other person, and trusting them to accept you is very important.
(Of course, he could probably go to the LGBT+ student services and get some help, but that is probably as likely to happen as Joyce, Billy, or Ruth getting therapy.)
The way everything was said wasn’t good, but Joe did manage to get across one very important thing: That he’d be there and be a strong ally for him if he was gay.
To an extent I don’t think Danny is being a jerk about it as well. It takes two to tango and these two have been kind of jerks to each other for the past couple weeks.
There are two types of Joe-Danny conversations. Type 1: Joe complains about the state of their relationship. Type 2: Danny talks about himself and his problems.
…okay, that might just be one type.
To paraphrase Becky: I can’t like girls AND boys… Is there even a WORD for that?
Greedy.
Kidding, by the way.
So far, no one in this comic has demonstrated an understanding of the concept of bisexuality… the saddest thing is, that might actually be pretty realistic.
On the active level, at least, Billie seems to have figured it out. Conceptually, maybe not as much, but then she’s not really the type to think it worth the bother of philosophising over.
I think its rather more that the topic has not been brought up to every character. Like, I’d wager that dorothy knows whats what, and so does joe actually. I’d be baffled if roz didn’t know that one. Sal and/or Walky might actually be knowledgeable of the subject but wouldn’t really see it pertaining to them.
Roz did include that option for other genders in her whole roommate agreement thing. I suspect she’s at least aware of it as a possibility.
The thing is, this strip is, on its face, a failure on Joe’s part in that regard, because he meant “are you concerned you might not be straight” but said “are you gay”.
So just what is the concept of bisexuality? So long as you’re getting your kicks from it, it doesn’t matter if you’re doing it with a guy or a girl?
To love/sex people, not their plumbing.
honestly, there is no One True Definition, as everybody who IDs as bisexual has a different working definition for themselves, and thats perfectly fine.
the internet consensus right now is that the best definition of bisexual is: “if you feel attraction to both your own gender and others, then its okay for you to call yourself bisexual”.
A common definition for pansexual is “if you feel attraction regardless of gender, you can call yourself pansexual”.
there are plenty of other orientations but those two are the most common of the ones that include attraction to more than a single gender.
last note: just because an orientation might describe you doesn’t automatically de facto mean you are of that orientation. These are all just suggested definitions, as sexuality is a deeply personal and individual experience, so you cannot proscribe somebody else’s sexuality to them. You can suggest what might sound right, but only that person can actually decide if they are or are not that sexuality. for example, I experience attraction to multiple genders, but I don’t really ID as bi- or pan-. For me, I think the best one is “generally kinda undefinably queer”.
It’s basically having the capacity for sexual attraction to both men and women. Gender preferences are possible and even relatively common. While I’m at it, I may as well mention some important facts: bisexuals can be anywhere on the asexual spectrum (except totally asexual, of course) and the romanticism spectrum, are no more inclined to promiscuity or polyamory than anyone else, can prefer one gender over another, and don’t need to have dated both genders to know that they’re attracted to both.
Danny, for instance, seems to tend to prefer women, and though he hasn’t dated any men, he knows he’s attracted to at least one. Of course, if it turns out he’s really hardly ever attracted to men, he could identify differently, like rezby above does (also, Erika Moen, a certain Walkyverse character, etc.).
Note: I may have accidentally implied that people don’t always determine their own identification. Not what I meant at all.
In Danny’s case, “optimistic”?
Since reading Name of the Wind, I’ve been partial to “ambisextrous”
My bad that was apparently Wise Man’s Fear, not NotW.
Nice taste in books. :O
Siiiiiiiiiiigh. He should have gone with Dorothy.
Even if they broke up they can still be civil with each other.
Danny would be a great friend of Dorothy
(What? I learnt that phrase from this comic. Don’t expect me not to use it!)
Bravo. Wait, now I’m sort of doing it, too.
Yup, you nailed it when you explained it for me yesterday, timemonkey – Joe and Danny are both hurt and huffy because their childhood friend is not having fun on their terms. Danny want to talk touchy-feely stuff and Joe want to bone ladies and high-five afterwards. Both want the other one to get on the program.
I LOVE Danny’s comment i the second panel. “It’s a damn question about sex! NOW can you pay attention to me?”
Yea, I feel kind of bad for them. I’m pretty sure they like and care about one another. If only they could just compromise for a bit and find some common ground again…
I really hope they do. I think they have a good friendship and I want it to continue!
While he could have phrased it differently Joe does make a good point in the last panel.
I think I understand what you mean, but I can’t agree. People can have (safe/consensual) sex all they want, but if my friends start expecting me to want to hear about their sex lives, they’ve got another thing coming.
I don’t know if its sharing the intimate details as much as joining in and congratulating Joe on another conquest since Joes self-worth does seem to tie into sexual conquests
So when Danny ignores Joes conquests hes essentially ignoring Joe…maybe
Goddammit, now I have a reason to think of Joe as a complex character, and not the cardboard cutout I saw previously. It was easier to hate him that way >:T
>Cardboard cutout
So he’s rigid, made of wood, and usually upright.
This is a surprisingly apt comparison!
Maybe try making that argument without being sexist about it. Also, if we want to talk about ignoring, let’s talk about all the times Joe didn’t give a damn about Danny.
chris73 isn’t being sexist, he’s implying Joe is sexist, which he may or may not, on some level, but that’s a whole other can of worms. Your other point, though, is completely valid; Joe has been very callous in that regard.
Where was I being sexist? I’m speaking
from Joes point of view not my own.
I thought his point in the last panel was that he’d must rather receive a high-five and a slap on the back from Danny than an unwanted conversation about feelings. Did you see something different?
I saw it as Joe is willing to be there for his friend, provided Dan is clear enough that he (Joe) understands what Dan needs/wants from him, but on the flip side, Joe feels like every time he shares something he finds important (sex) with Dan, Dan is not supportive of his friend and instead brings the entire focus onto Dan’s issues and what Dan’s going through.
Joe would like a little support, too. He just needs a different kind of support than Dan. 🙂
This.
I think Joe’s done enough eating out for one day.
Knockers, Joe? KNOCKERS? You can be more imaginative in your mammary nomenclature than that. You can be better than Sideshow Bob.
He takes after Mel Brooks, no disrespect.
Quick, we need some exclusively british slang to describe Penny’s …
Bristols
Hundreds of british people laugh so hard that their tea spills, and I have no idea why.
Also, I have no stereotypic preconceptions about british people whatsoever. That would be silly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Leeves
With Peri Gilpin, Leeves also set up the production company “Bristol Cities” (cockney rhyming slang for ‘titties
And knowing is half the battle.
Not going nearly as bad as it could.
Joe is the most self-aware character on DoA.
I’m not sure how I feel about that.
Well what’s there to know? He’s the dick head who wants to get laid all the time, besides that he has nothing else going for him.
I don’t understand the Joe hate. I would infinitely rather more men acted like him – he actually presents his intentions right up front. If he wants to bang you, you know it, and you can provide him with a clear yes or no at your discretion, after which he will either bang you or leave you alone. It’s the men who hide their intent who are the real dickheads – with them, you’ve always got to wonder if they’re doing nice things because they’re good people or if they’re doing nice things in order to ply you for sex. And this is coming from a giant lesbian, so you know I’m not just biased by his boneability.
Giant height-wise or giant intensity-wise?
I actually agree; as obnoxious as he can be, he takes “no” for an answer and, better yet, wants an enthusiastic “yes”. And I’m impressed with his handling of this situation. All of this goes to show just how awful men can be that I’m like “Yeah, gettin’ consent! Not bein’ homophobic! MAN OF THE YEAR!!”
(It’s probably too late to preempt the #notallmen, but I’m a queer woman married to a dude, and some of my favorite people in the world are men. But guys who rate women on a numerical scale and hit on any above a certain threshold are usually crummy.)
Not to mention he doesn’t seem to have any issues with interacting with women who have said they’re not going to bone him; he’s not one of those assholes who ignore or dismiss you if you aren’t going to put out.
Plus he’s said that making sure his partner is also having a good time is an important component of sex, so he’s not just all “wham bam thank you ma’am.” Which is probably part of the reason he’s so successful; word like that (or the opposite) tends to get around pretty quickly.
I’ve always liked Joe as a character. I honestly had no idea anyone else hated him until this comments section.
I have this feeling that Joe is actually compensating for something like insecurity about his parents not loving him enough or something like that.
I think Mike or Dorothy is probably the most self-aware character. Dorothy is highly analytical and probably usually has a good grip on why she’s doing anything, and Mike is probably pretty aware that he is, in the memorable words of Holden Caulfield, “about as sensitive as a goddamn toilet seat.”
Dorothy can’t even decide whether or not if she wants what’s she has with Walky to be permanent or not, so she’s not really that self aware of her own feelings.
As for Mike…Ya that’s about right.
Fair enough, but indecisiveness isn’t necessarily a lack of self-awareness. She could very well know exactly why she’s uncertain, is what I’m saying.
Joe’s parents DID divorce, so that’s plausible.
Self awareness breeds confidence, and confidence is sexy, so you should feel sexy for seeing that in Joe.
You should also feel sexy if you see Joe in you, breeding in confident self-awareness.
haha sex
YOU SQUNADERED IT DANNY, YOU SQUANDERED IT!!!!!
I was very wrong, Joe’s A jerk. why can’t everyone just be nice to each other?
Because then instead of DOA you get Family Circus, and the readers grow homicidal.
They’re both jerks when it comes down to it. Neither Joe nor Danny can put their own isssues/interests down for long enough to be supportive of the other.
Okay so Joe is clearly extremely agitated by this. Also, doing a -great- job of reinforcing the myth of sexuality binary.
It’s closer to being a sexuality octal if QUILTBAG is any indication.
But for Joe it is Bianary! “Do” and “Done”. With the exception of Joyce, of course.
No, there’s about four categories in the world according to Joe: “Women I’ve fucked”, “Women I’d like to fuck”, “People I don’t want to fuck”, and “Rocks”. Well, perhaps some of the “Rocks” serve as food, but that’s a secondary concern.
I’m confused. Has Danny never ever heard about bisexuals? Has no one in the comic heard of bisexuals?
Danny’s like 18. A lot of people that age have difficulty understanding the spectrum. Hell, a lot of 48 year olds have difficulties.
Oh god I remember being in high school and being so uncomfortable with any male sexualization. Even as a college freshmen I still was getting settled into my sexuality. I was aware of bisexuality, but felt that I wasn’t bisexual because I didn’t want to have sex with men. So finding a man cute or attractive was very confusing. It was liberating coming to understand sexuality as a spectrum, and realizing that like so many girls I can find a same sex person pleasing to look at, even crush worthy, but still have no interest in their sexual equipment.
At least Danny hasn’t encountered the most (to me, anyway) annoying bit of ignorance on the subject there is: the interpretation of someone in a relationship saying that they’re bi meaning “I want both at the same time.”
But this is DoA, and there’s a long time left for stupidity yet. I’m sure this confusion will appear sometime.
Eighteen years old, and grew up in what is apparently a quite conservative part of Indiana.
He came out of that educational system lucky to know what sex even WAS, is what I’m saying. Abstinence only education sucks.
Sexual feelings are weird and it’s hard to figure them out sometimes. A lot of people have a hard time viewing sexuality as anything other than “gay” and “straight.” Even Billie describes herself as only sometimes liking girls.
Drew in Shortpacked put it best.
“At first I thought I liked girls, then I thought I liked dudes, and then it took me a while to admit I liked both.”
I’m not convinced that ANY of them have heard of Bisexuals. They exist in some sort of bubble, unable to access what is to us the most basic knowledge there is, forever sheltered into some constricting ideal of perfection which is already in itself quite flawed. If you ask me, which you didn’t, that is where things went wrong. You should NEVER restrict someone to only a small and limited understanding of the world around them.
One of our problems as a society, and one discussed in many quality comics is that evil comes from the attempt to create pure good. It CAN’T be done. STOP TRYING!
Children become corrupt over time, simply out of fact. If you don’t embrace it when they are young… Well I exist, don’t I? Let your kids play with fire folks. You’re only saving them burnings later in life. }:)
But then, I suppose it’s your decision. Go ahead, lock them up! Hold them back! Filter their internet, give them nothing to believe in or try out for themselves! Keep them from exploring! See what comes of it! I promise you when that blaze comes to surface, MUAHAHAHAHAAAAAA! Don’t you wish you’d listened to me now? Don’t you? They got matches, and they let it BURN!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!
Eep! NO! Don’t!!! GAH! I’ll reign her in, but for now… read around the evil or not at all! She’s CRAZY! No wait, that’s me. Crud, how can I say that correctly?
Me wantses to do a Gollum impression?
Billie seems to have. I mean she didn’t explicitly state it but she’s pretty aware you can be into dudettes and dudes.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Danny hadn’t, Google bisexual erasure.
We get very little media representation.
First he’d have to be aware that bisexual erasure is a thing, and first before that he’d have to be aware that bisexuality is also a thing.
Growing up in a small town in Northern Canada in the Seventies, I barely was aware that guys could be gay, and didn’t really have any idea of what that entailed. I didn’t even know it was possible for women to be attracted to anyone other than guys, and cross-dressing was 100% limited to the ugly stepsisters in the annual local pantomimes. The concept of bisexuality (let alone pansexuality) was completely off my radar.
I think that my life would have been very different if I’d realized a lot earlier that there was more than just the two cis-genders, because I certainly don’t fit into that mould, and it made me very awkward and insecure, and deeply uncomfortable with sexuality, even on TV.
LOL! Joe’s allergic to feelings!!! Quick, someone emote on him!
Next panel: Joe has to give himself an EpiPen injection to offset the allergic reaction to the sudden onslaught of feelings.
I like that Joe isn’t dismissive, he’s just sulking a little at Danny not expressing any interest in his hobby.
Joe also seems to understand that emotions aren’t his strong suit and that successfully treating Danny with the patience he needs is going to be hard work. It would be very easy for Joe to just dive in and say a series of confusing and hurtful things, but he sees that train wreck and is doing a hell of a lot better job than Danny at trying to avoid it.
“Buddy, I need you to go get someone to fuck your angst away. Doesn’t matter what’s between that someone’s legs, just GO.”
Now I’m confused. Is Joe saying “No, of course not” in response to whether he’s ever thought about having sex with a guy, or to Danny asking him if he would treat him differently if he were gay? The way I’m seeing it, Danny being gay is what “changes the parameters of the conversation.”
If that’s the case, I hate Joe even more now. I thought he was at least saying “It’s cool if you’re gay, now stop danning everything up” but here it just sounds like he’s ignoring something really important to Danny.
The “no of course not” is Joe’s normal answer to the question. As in for himself he has not ever had that feeling. the other half of it is basically Joe not wanting to have to go through some sort of self descovery bs with danny. Joe really isnt equipped for that kind of journey anyway. Mentally, not physically, hes got the right bait and tabkle but its just not the game hes looking for.
He’s saying that if Danny’s gay, it would change his answer to the first question (“ever considering intercoursing on an XY-type person?”) so I think he’s actually offering to be supportive, albeit in a really dickish way (“holding your hand through some excruciating self-discovery.”)
Yay, someone else who sees this the same way I do …
I don’t think Joe would care one way or the other if Danny were gay. He just wants to cut to the chase, have Danny make whatever discovery he needs to make, and get on with his life.
But that means Joe wan’t Danny to not be Danny. Which kinda makes Joe an asshole for not accepting Danny for who he is, doesn’t it?
If that’s the measure for asshole, Danny’s been a total asshole to Joe too.
Danny (and myself) might think that Joe’s sexual conquests are kind of stupid and uninteresting, but to Joe they’re an important part of his life right now, and I struggle to think of a time that Danny hasn’t reacted to them with snideness, dismissal, or derision.
Danny’s also done this to Dorothy’s ambitions and Amazi-girl’s “I want you to know my secret identity.” He rejected both realities to substitute his own– to the detriment of all parties involved, up to and including himself– just because the narratives didn’t work out the way they did in his head.
Joe’s feelings aside, Danny really does need to stop being like that. It’s hurting people.
Rejecting your reality to substitute my own: works on Mythbusters, not so much in webcomics
It actually sounds to me like he’s asking if it’s very important to Danny.
If it’s not important, the answer’s ‘no of course not’ (I suspect because if Joe had an ounce of bi-ness he’d have been bragging about the hot dudes along with the chicks). If it IS important, he knows to be on ‘handholding and feelings’ duty. As Danny’s best/oldest friend, he knows that that’s his role.
The answer changes the parameters of the conversation; either it’s shooting the breeze or Danny is having a Danny-crisis, and Joe’s response is different in each one.
It’s not that Joe cares whether or not Danny’s gay, but whether or not Danny’s gay/bi does kind of change the meaning of his question.
If Danny’s not attracted to men, the question is just about about Joe’s sexuality, and Joe can just say no, of course he doesn’t like dudes.
If Danny is attracted to men, the question is really about his own sexuality, and Joe feels obligated as a friend to hand-hold him through the self-discovery process (which he really doesn’t want to do.)
So he is ignoring something really important to Danny, but it’s not his sexuality – it’s his feelings.
Couldn’t say it better myself.
Yes, and where the frustration comes in is that if it’s the first, then why the hell can’t Danny just be happy for him, while if it’s the second then why the hell did it have to be today when he just got back from closet time with Penny?
What was even the spoiler that upended the comments yesterday? Nothing really major or revelatory seems to happen in this one.
Oh, it just occurred to me that “nothing major or revelatory happens” can be a spoiler in and of iteself…
It’s not that it spoiled anything, but Patreon members aren’t supposed to even hint at the next day’s comic.
What did the what what now? Oh whoa, did one of the people what do the Patreon thing finally spill the proverbial beans about the next-day comic like so much biblical seed? And then poor Willis had to chop a bunch of comments in half Solomon-style?
Yes.
The guy implied that Joe reacted badly. Also, what Spencer said.
Ah. I’m actually amazed it took this long for something like that to happen. I was a patron for a while, but currently am not (budgeting), and there was one time during the Becky confession strips where I posted here arguing that Joyce yelling at Sarah did not mean she was getting in a fight with Sarah, and I posted those comments knowing the next day’s strip definitely did not feature Joyce feeding Sarah a knuckle sandwich as many non-patrons were predicting. I tried to make sure my refutation of those predictions were based entirely on the current strip, and I’d done the same thing in the Patreon comments the day before, but on the other hand I guess I was making the argument the second day more confidently since I already knew the outcome, and I worried I was stepping over the line at the time.
I felt it was better that I just stuck to commenting on the Patreon threads after that. Not that I ever did a lot of commenting to begin with. I can’t imagine being someone to comment on both sides every day while keeping my future-knowledge in check.
100 mothers for THAT?!?! Uh, NOPE!!! NOPE NOPE NOPE!
Yeah, that’s the main reason I’m not a Patreon patron; I wouldn’t be able to post my (admittedly infrequent) predictions for tomorrow’s update in these here comments if I had actually read tomorrow’s update.
So there’s one thing Joe and Walky have in common. Just replace knockers with tacos.
Hah, been thinking the exact same thing. Joe wants a simoly life revolving around sex, and Walky wants one recolving around fast food. Ultimately, neither can have what they want.
butt-knockers.org?
Danny and Joe BFFS! 😀
Okay if Joe feels like constantly talking about feelings and shit is obnoxious he has to realize that keeping everything strictly superficial is equally freaking obnoxious. Like why the hell would Danny be bringing this shit up out of the blue? One of the nasty consequences of having relationships with other human beings is that occasionally you will have to help them through some self discoveries. You will have to talk about “feelings and shit.”
I don’t know maybe Joe will prove himself to have hidden depths in the end but how he handles this will likely decide if he and Danny’s friendship is going to last and if it ends maybe that would be for the best? Like clearly they are looking for other things in friendships and romantic relationships. Sometimes you’re only friends with people because they were THERE for the majority of your life. Maybe his romantic relationship with Dorothy wasn’t the only thing that had run its course by the end of their senior year.
Idk, panel 4 seems to suggest that Joe is quite aware of that, and that’s why he asked if he’s gay. Danny isn’t being honest about why he’s asking though, so Joe can’t have that conversation.
I don’t know. I get what you’re saying and I get how this could be frustrating for Joe if this is how Danny deals with any major life event, just tiptoeing over how he’s feeling and not directly saying what’s bothering him. But Joe’s immediate frustrated response rubs me the wrong way even with the understanding of a likely history. I guess I’m just more sympathetic towards Danny at this moment because he’s dealing with something very real here so in response I’m way less forgiving of Joe.
It’s a wild guess, but I suspect Joe is running from “feelings and shit”. He’s been very reluctant to even acknowledge that they exist, let alone that they matter. I think that Joe wants to continue to ignore feelings for as long as he can, even though it’ll ultimately prove to be futile.
He has stated he won’t “touch the stuff”, referring to love.
I’m a little confused by a lot of the responses here. My reading of panel 4 is not that Joe is against having an emotional conversation with Danny, rather that he’s very willing to have it if it’s appropriate, and that he’s frustrated by the ambiguity Danny is presenting.
It feels more like he wants a very clear sense of whether he should be blowing this off as a stupid question or taking it really seriously because the conversation would be very important to his best friend. He’s just extremely blunt about it, like he is with most things.
That could be the case and likely is. I mean I understand how ambiguity could be frustrating but this is delicate subject matter he’s bringing up I can’t really fault Danny for not wanting to immediately just blurt out what he’s feeling. Joe’s immediate frustrated reaction doesn’t help things.
Keep in mind that Joe and Danny have a lot of history, and Danny very likely pulls this kind of ambiguous not saying what you mean and trying to indirectly seek validation thing regularly. It gets old, especially if you’re if a very direct no nonsense personality type.
Yeah I responded to you upthread and could probably just cut and paste it here but again I think the fact that Danny is going through something so real makes me way more sympathetic towards him right now than Joe even understanding that they likely have a history.
Yeah, and that’s totally cool. It isn’t that Joe is being nice here; he totally isn’t. It’s more that he’s being reasonable about the level of tolerance and patience that he has for this kind of thing, that is not very much. If Danny needs him, he’ll be there, but he’s signaling that he’s not up dealing with the vagueness. And that is absolutely not a nice thing to do it you really care about someone, but it’s also not something anyone should simply expect as a default either, it’s exhausting to deal with, especially if it’s frequent and consistent.
I saw Joe’s frustration as a “why are you always bringing up so many feelings” thing, because that’s how Joe has shown himself to be with Danny before, but your reading seems pretty possible too. It’s a question of here exactly Joe’s frustration is coming from and there’s not really a clear answer yet.
See I think a lot of the Joe/Danny dynamic, and especially the feelings stuff, is not so much about Joe not caring about feelings in an absolute sense, but more about Joe having an extremely low tolerance for drama. Danny’s issues have typically been around being mopey, wishy-washy, clingy, or making obviously bad decisions. Joe is very direct, and doesn’t seem to have much patience for other people not being so, he seems to view most of what Danny has been coming to him about as self inflicted harm and stupidity.
That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t deal with what he would consider legitimate problems with concern and respect; his response about the parameters of the conversation changing from answers to feelings doesn’t seem to suggest he has a problem with it falling down in favor of feelings, just that he doesn’t want to deal with having to guess and play games about what Danny actually means.
Possibly, but I think the last panel says something different.
Oh, Joe. I do like that his response to Danny having a crisis about dudes is the same as his response to Danny having a crisis about girls. It’s the same either way. He doesn’t want to deal with the feelings.
I mean, it’s kind of a jerk response, but it’s consistent and doesn’t seem to care that his BFF and roomie might be not-straight.
Though I think Danny needs advice from someone who’s on the same wavelength as him, because Joe is not.
Eurgh, I can’t wait for this ‘guys shouldn’t feel anything or discuss emotions’ cultural meme dies.
Right there with you on that one.
The worst part is that, when you don’t use something, you tend to be unable to use it properly.
Joe has probably suppressed is ability to empathize and emote to the point where he might not be able to even have a ‘real’ moment with someone else. That outer shell of horny college student might be all there is to him.
Eh, I dunno. I spent a big part of my life trying not to feel anything and avoiding discussions about emotions, and I’m a girl. Amber has said similar things in this very comic. I think it’s a pretty relatable story trope. Although I’d like to see it deconstructed more often. It’s not really a healthy mindset for anyone.
I mean in real life. As a story trope it’s fine, but IRL, especially in the West, it’s rather stifling.
In that case I’m with you all the way.
If I may pry, why did you try to suppress your emotions? If my understanding of cultural memes are correct, women are given far larger leeway with their emotions.
But we are still considered “weak” for dong so.
Culturally speaking of course. I’m stubborn as a mule and use my emotions to back me up on that kind of thing.
I suppose, though it seems women are still allowed to express a wider range of emotion without social cost.
“Social Cost” comes in two forms. Social movement down, and restriction of social movement up. Why do you think all the fighters in action movies wear black and are cold hearted killers? because that’s what it takes. We don’t get to be all feely if we want to be above the standard acceptance level.
What’s more, we are not allowed to care. You should see me trying to get others to care. They do worse – they degrade my causes with things they don’t even care about. The moment you STAND for anything, everyone else just wants to cut you back down.
Unless I am thinking of the wrong emotion set? Enlighten me, what is it we females are allowed to feel without being restricted to our places like some pathetic
Crazy Dina
February 6, 2015 at 1:42 pm
THAT’S QUITE ENOUGH FROM YOU MISSY! I apologize, All Hail Dina has been acting quite moody lately. But she does have a few points:
The female superheroes we attach to are generally hard, cold, and attempting to have no emotions. See Raven (Teen Titans) and Go-Go (Big Hero 6) for some examples, though there is also Erin (Farscape) to turn to. And we don’t seem to have a high emotion allowance for anyone really. You say that there isn’t social cost for a woman showing emotion, but you forget our current social status. Socially, the same people who believe men should have no emotions would be the same ones that hold women as already at a lower status.
What All Hail Dina DOESN’T get, is that she can’t start getting pissy at other commenters for no reason.
All Hail Dina
February 6, 2015 at 1:42 pm
Sorry.
(Please let me know before you go blocking my All Hail Dina character. I am trying to use her to push my boundaries a little bit… Because that requires using tainted judgement and not being on my best behavior, that might lead to some line crossing, and I’d prefer a warning or two so that I know where the lines are BEFORE rash action is taken.) (Yes, I read the rules for this reason, though I should probably read them again to make sure I’m well aware what you have specifically said not to do while I’m purposely being bad.)
… You’ll probably see a new comment tomorrow, once Willis approves it, but I went a little far evil, so there’s a chance it may not get approved. We’ll have to see.
Women aren’t societally allowed to get angry, men aren’t allowed to get sad. Both limitations are crazy and harmful.
Re: moderation on that All Hail Dina post, I think it just tripped the auto-moderation filter due to including multiple URLs. It’s a general anti-spam measure, not necessarily a specific “All Hail Dina needs to be moderated always” setting.
No, but that does mean that the post gets checked before it gets published, so Willis may very well decide something is too risky to get published, even though the moderation is for a different reason.
I hesitate to say “without social cost”. As a woman myself, I find that as soon as you do show that you’re upset about anything (as opposed to simply saying “that pisses me off” or some statement like that but without showing an emotion [other than anger, which has more leeway]), you are instantly dismissed.
Like, sometimes there’s eye-rolls and sometimes there’s concern, but the concern rarely seems to actually be a “by golly that would be upsetting, let’s deal with the upsetting thing” sort of thing, and more along the lines of “oh dear, now you’re all upset. Let’s deal with you being upset.” The focus of the discussion instantly becomes that the person is upset, do you want to take a moment, maybe go splash some water on your face, do you need a kleenex? And the reason they’re upset falls by the wayside (or else is used in a condescending manner: “Aw, honey, that would make me upset too! Here, have a hug and let’s talk about something else that’s not upsetting.”)
Yes, we’re allowed more leeway with certain emotions that can be seen as moments of weakness than a guy would be, but they are still used to dismiss our actual concerns.
I find it very hard, myself, to talk honestly about things that really upset me or anger me without crying, and I hate that in myself, because instantly the tears becomes the focus and what I’m upset about is ignored. It’s a very annoying physiological reaction to strong emotion that I have a very hard time stopping that occasionally gets me accused of trying to be manipulative (because why else would a woman in an argument cry, amirite?) when I am not; I just can’t always stop it.
TL;DR: There’s little/no belittling for showing emotion the way a guy would get; but I wouldn’t say there’s no social cost at all.
I don’t want to speak for anyone but as a woman whose tried and failed at times to not feel shit…Just because it’s considered more or less socially acceptable for women to express their feelings that doesn’t exempt us from the toll of actually feeling them. Feelings can be uncomfortable, gross, embarrassing. People still judge you for feeling them. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been called hysterical or made to feel fucking ridiculous just because I was the more emotional person in the moment. There’s also dealing with the fact that women being emotional is also a stereotype and sometimes you don’t want to be a freaking stereotype. You want to be taken seriously and heard and being too caught up in “feelings” gets in the way. I tend to tear up when I’m feeling something particularly strongly like anger or frustration and that’s a really inconvenient time to be doing that when I want to be taken seriously. Not just be the weepy woman. Feelings can be inconvenient sometimes it seems like it would be so much easier to turn them off.
Well, the grass is always greener, I suppose. I wish I didn’t feel like I have to shut everything in.
Should be considered that the reason it’s acceptable for women to show feelings is that showing emotion is “feminine” (read in context: weak, inferior).
That sucks. Personally I think guys have it worse in this instance. Obviously, problems aren’t evenly divided by gender but, with the possible exception of anger, there is definitely pressure on guys to be less expressive than women. There’s enough reasons to want to stupidly bottle stuff up without the rest of the world telling you to do just that.
Well, it depends on the emotion. Stoic resolve, rage, lust, snarky flippancy, and even embarrassment can be expressed by men without being made to feel ‘weak’.
I think I described most of the emotional range of the Avengers…
Yeah, that’s pretty much it. All that about “weepy woman” stereotypes is also correct but, bottom line: If feelings feel gross, I don’t care how socially acceptable it is to feel them, I still don’t want to. circa. 2008
All cultural conditioning aside, sometimes emotions can be overwhelming and ignoring them can deceptively seem like a successful method of dealing. It was a good five years of hardcore avoidance before it caught up to me and I could see tangible consequences of said avoidance.
I really don’t see panel 4 as Joe being unwilling to talk about feelings as much as Joe being unwilling to put up with Danny being vague. It isn’t a contradiction to be anti drama and not be anti feelings, and it isn’t clear that Joe actually falls into that trope, especially in the way that, say, Walky tends to.
It could be so. Then again, I’ve never seen Joe be anything other than horny or annoyed. At least, I can’t remember him being something other than either of those two emotions. That’s a rather small range.
Y’know, I just now noticed that clicking the comments link below the comic takes you to the bottom of the comments and clicking the one in David’s post about the comic takes you to the top of the comments.
What are we, five years into the comic now?
you just changed my life.
This comic is Joe and Danny’s friendship in a nutshell.
So… i’m actually real proud of Joe here… Annoyed that he doesn’t /really/ want to help Danny, but proud of him for actually giving a somewhat straight answer.
Somewhat straight? There’s no somewhat about his answer: he’s straight. 😉
Kudos for Joe on Not Being A Douche and Danny, Danny PLEASE talk to your girlfriend. Being Bi is a thing and I’m 70% sure if you were to have an honest conversation with Amber, learn the whole ‘Ethan is gay’ thing and have an honest talk with each other you might be able to enjoy an emotionally safe hook-up between your girlfriend’s hot ex, yourself and your girlfriend. Please just talk to each other dear god people.
Having followed this for years. Joe is my hero. Not because he’s a slut or whore. not because he doesn’t care, but because Joe cares about love and pleasure above all else. Joe is NOT homophobic. Joe is a cis dude. but he does NOT lament peoople being non cis. Joe is smart. He’s super freaking intelligent. And all he freaking cares about is people be honest. You are a dude. like women, dont apologize for it. you are a gay dude. like guys. hunt them but dont go too far. you are a woman that like women, go get them but try not to scare them off. Joe doesn’t care. not one bit. As long as love and lust exist Joe is joe.
While I agree, I think you mean “straight” rather than “cis”. Him not being homophobic doesn’t really say anything about what he thinks of non cis people, though I’m sure he’s totally cool with that, too.
Where im from we dont ask them we tell them
D’awwww
they are friends
This week, Joe is seeming a little more…intelligent than I usually expect him to be.
Joe is shallow, not stupid.
If traits are being carried over from the Walkyverse, Joe is probably really damn smart, but just prefers ladies to science. We already know that he’s a closet nerd in the Dumbieverse.
when did we learn that?
When he built a sentient car?
joe continues to be a jerk
I love Joe’s awareness of how this could be a delicate situation and is upset by that.
I’m reading that last panel as Joe lamenting the fact that he can’t have a stereotypical “bromance” with Danny. Because while a lot of people are like “Yeah! Joe *gets* it” I also feel he could be the kind of guy who doesn’t feel comfortable around gay guys. And I dunno. Let’s see what happens.
I read the last panel the same, but I don’t think a stereotypical bromance requires Danny to be straight. Without getting into the size of knockers, maybe, when Joe says “I was ‘studying gender’ anyway, if you get my meaning,” Danny could say, “Cool! High five!” instead of “I’ll try not to.”
But I agree, Joe might also be the kind of guy who’s uncomfortable around gay guys. We shall see…
For all his complaints.. he just totally admited he’d be there for him if he was having some big crisis.. He just wants to know which one he’s getting into first. Joe’s always impressed me somewhat at that aspect. in this and Walkyverse. He seems like he’s flippant or self centered but man when anyone he cares about is having some sort of trouble he’s right fucking there ready to help.. he just doesnt always konw whats going on
You know, I’m really not surprised this is Joe’s response. He doesn’t like dealing with feelings and emotions, and all that kind of stuff, all he’s ever talked with Danny about is banging, and this has been one of many times that he’s brushed away any of Danny’s concerns/questions.
In a way, I actually kind of like Joe isn’t disgusted by the fact that Danny could be bi/gay and is only asking because dealing with his self-discovery on what he is would just be a hassle – because it involves talking about feelings and ew feelings.
I’m not saying Joe is a great guy here, but he’s a lot better than he could’ve been. Hopefully in the next couple of updates he can give Danny some kind of Joe advice.
I’m annoyed with Joe’s impatience with delicate situations. It doesn’t really feel like a supportive friendship to me.
I mean, a lot of you are saying that panel 4 indicates Joe’s willingness to support Danny, but I don’t know, “handholding you through some excruciating self-discovery” — with a scowl on his face — sounds like “well I’ll do it if you make me.” Sounds like passive-aggressive BS to me. And the answer to “does it matter?” should be no! Joe can just answer the question without first whining about the possibility of feelings.
And why should we be encouraging Joe’s empty, at-times-gross sex crusade anyway?
But it does matter. When someone is asking leading questions and tiptoeing around the subject*, it ALWAYS matters.
*That’s passive-aggressive BS, too, BTW.
Joe’s not saying anything that isn’t true. Straight answers are quick and easy. Self-discovery IS excruciating. Someone else’s, moreso.
It’s not always about you, Joe.
I think his problem is that it always seems to be about Danny.
I mean, dan is assumedly hoping joe will support him, but can you name one time when joe has talked about what he’s up to and gotten any kind of approval or support from Dan? I certainly can’t.
You know, between the stubble, mussed up hair, and the bags under his eyes, Joe is looking rather thoroughly debauched. Which is probably just how he likes it, and I know that in-comic it’s barely a month into the first semester but I really hope he isn’t making a habit of neglecting his studies in favor of getting laid.
I’m actually totally okay with Joe’s reaction here. He’s actually attempting to figure out where Danny is coming from so that he can respond appropriately. He’s not upset at the idea that Danny might be gay, but rather at having to talk about really sensitive issues, which he is well established to hate. He’s reacting roughly the same way he reacted when Danny tried to unload on him about Dorothy. I feel good about this.
Lookin kinda rough there, Joe. You alright?
Okay, I am surprised I am the only one who had a different reading of this.
Consider for a moment Joe a is closeted bi. Then from his POV, the conversation went like this:
D: “Joe, are you bi?”
J: “…why are we talking about this”.
D: “Just answer the damn question”.
J: “Look, are you a fellow LGBT?”
D: “No”
J: “Well, if you were, I would support you, but as you are not, the answer is of course “no I’m not””
So you expect Joe to lie?
That’s an interesting interpretation. I don’t buy into it for the simple reason that I have never seen Joe try to hide anything from anyone at all, and I have especially never seen him trying to appeal to Danny’s idea of how he should be.
So if Joe was bi I would expect the conversation to go.
“have you ever thought of doing it with a dude?”
“Oh man, yes. There was this bro who had the most massive…”
Of course, not appearing to hide anything is an important part of being closeted. It’s not proof in any way. In fact, I have no reason to believe that Joe is not bi – he did mention threesomes at least once.
But I don’t think that’s what irks him in this conversation. His problem is his former best friend not following his script for how college should be.
“Former Best Friend”?
That’s pretty harsh, dude.
I don’t think Joe is bi for the same reason, he wouldn’t make a big secret of it.
It sure is.
It’s not gay if it’s a three-way.It’s not bi if it’s a tri.
I kinda like Joe. Even though he’s a bit of a sex monster, he does follow his own rules and always seems to follow a chain of logic that can always work.
Even here, yeah, it kinda sucks that he’s complaining, but the key phrase is “handholding you through”. Even though he’d be completely uncomfortable, he’d still be willing to help his friend.
I mean…he has a point.
He’s being a dick about it, but I understand his point. He wants to know if it’s an honest question or if Danny is trying to come out in kind of a weird way. He knows how to handle one, maybe not the other. But if he knows what this is all about, he’ll know how to react.
Damn… For all the shit Joe may get for giving off that dudebro vibe, he really is a good friend.
He’s the friend you deserve, but not the one you need right now. So we’ll hate him, because he can take it. Because he’s a simple man, kinda dickish. He is fratman.
Rumor has it he didn’t really eat the last slice of pizza, but he’ll take the fall, because that’s what the campus needs.
I don’t know how to feel about this.
DAMN YOU WILLIS!
Is everyone in the comments oblivious to how supportive Joe’s being? Like, he obviously prefers not to deal with shit like this, but if it were down to that, I think he’s gonna turn out to be a real friend.
I think he’s an awesome character.
Joe’s support is getting drown out by his body language and his gruff manner to Danny.
Huh. Guy’s smarter then I though.
“NO, It’s too late!” … sniff, sniff….. (heehee)
I might be over-reading, but again… walkyverse Joe got a lot better and grew a beard. Stubble people, stubble.
It’s said that a man’s beard grows fastest when he is expecting sex.
For Joe, this is “all the time.”
I always find it interesting that there are always such strong and varied interpretations of the comic. A lot of people took the comment to be that Joe is being a dick and not being supportive, but I (and some others from the comments I read) saw this as Joe is actually being completely supportive of Danny, he just wishes Danny would support him, too.
I don’t see panels 3 and 4 as Joe saying he doesn’t want to talk about feelings, it’s just that he needs to know what where Dan is coming from because if it’s just that Danny is asking a random question, Joe can simply answer, “Hells, no” but if Danny isn’t actually asking “Joe do YOU want to sleep with men” but is instead asking “Joe, is it okay if I want to sleep with men”, then Joe needs to approach the conversation in an entirely different way.
That is key info to know because he doesn’t want to fuck it up and he wants to help his friend.
To me, Joe’s frustration in the whole comic and especially the last panel is that
A) Danny is rarely straightforward, so Joe has to guess at what Danny is really asking and needs from his friend and
B) Danny is very self-centered in their relationship, and turns every conversation into either a judgement on Joe’s life or changes the focus to what Danny is going through, never lending support to Joe and letting the emotional focus of the conversation be about Joe. Friendships are give and take and currently Danny is doing all the taking. Joe doesn’t actually specifically require that Danny comment on the woman’s knockers, but is instead asking for emotional support from his friend on what he (Joe) finds important in life.
I absolutely disagree with (B). There’s ample links elsewhere in this thread, and the comic itself, illustrating that Joe has little to no interest in Danny’s life unless it has potential for bacchanalia.
Joe’s narcissistic tendencies have nothing to do with Danny’s narcissistic tendencies, only in Joe’s perception of Danny’s narcissistic tendencies. In other words, both sides are being jerks to the other, for essentially the same reason: they want different things out of life and can’t see eye-to-eye because of that.
I have no idea how Danny is being narcissistic right now. He’s trying to find some advice from somebody who is his best friend. He can be a bit whiny at times, even if I think most of those times have been completely acceptable, but that isn’t even remotely the case here.
Danny wants Joe to be someone to provide support, Joe wants Danny to be someone to celebrate with.
Both are perfectly normal things to want, but they’re growing into different people who are more comfortable doing the opposite.
Because the strip is centered around the girls, we don’t see who else Joe interacts with. Other than Dan and Jacob, Joe doesn’t talk to many other guys (aside from Walky occasionally). And both of them want a real relationship instead of celebrating casual sex, so it wears on Joe every time Dan wants to talk about feelings.
It’s kind of like the Ted-Barney relationship in HIMYM.
Perhaps I should have said “selfish” instead of “narcissistic”, but neither one is trying to walk in the other’s shoes, which is certainly not an act a narcissist would ever consider.
Right now, Danny, as that deadpan line at the end shows, is being flippant. Not without reason, as Joe is being whiny, but he still isn’t trying to see the problem from Joe’s perspective (and neither is Joe from Danny’s, really).
They are tired of each other and “divorce” certainly seems imminent. This very conversation might even precipitate it.
I love how varied the opinions are on what goes on in Willis’s comics. The discussion is so much fun. 🙂
I personally don’t like scruffy Joe. He comes off as unwashed and not at all rugged.
With the stubble and the messy hair, I kind of see a faint resemblance to Fred Flintstone.
I think that’s the point, actually, plenty of commenters have noted that Joes appears to be spiraling out of control.
I don’t care for the stubble one way or the other, but that sex hair is actually a pretty good look for him.
I like the joeattitude here. 🙂 It’s not that he doesn’t want to help Danny, but he doesn’t want to deal with the drama of evading the point. Because if Danny has homosexual attractions, and even worse, if he has them towards him, then it would require carefull emotional handling.
If it’s a legit question of curiosity, “no” will suffice.
It’s a different context that requires different answers 🙂
Holy crap, was that actual concern from JOE?
…Well then. Didn’t expect that. Frankly I expected Danny to wuss out and wind up dealing with this on his own and eventually with Amazi-Girl’s help. Y’know, eventually. After driving himself into a state of depression and drinking.
Erg. Joe never fails to creep me out.
Joe used the word “parameters” in a sentence.
Usually I’m fine with Danny and Joe’s banter, but I’m getting tired of it. every conversation they have is the exact same, and now more than ever Danny needs a straight answer but Joe’s being a meathead. I hope this little story thread goes further and we see some actual conflict between the two.
(whoops, posted with an incorrect email address)
Your opinion on this strip makes me understand why you have Dorothy as an avatar.
Dorothy avatar?
Thinking of one thing, writing another, I meant Joyce. Dorothy’s always with her so I projected lol.
If Danny wants a direct answer, he needs to ask a direct question– and he isn’t. Joe’s calling him out on this exact thing today. The direct answer to Danny’s question is “No, I have never considered banging a dude” but Joe is perceptive enough to know that this isn’t what Danny’s really asking about.
And you’d think, as a friend, Joe would try to hear him out. Joe’s a shitty friend. He’s been a shitty friend from day one.
How do you want Danny to phrase this anyway? “Hey Joe there’s this one guy and he gives me the hardest boner I’ve ever had. What does that mean?”
Discovering your sexuality can be confusing. It’s not a yes or no question. Danny is coming to his friend for some support for something that he doesn’t understand about himself, and Joe’s just being an asshole because “hurrr feelings are dumb i like vaginas.”
Joe may actually be desirably responsive to that.
I think here it must be borne in mind that Joe has been Danny’s best friend since they were tiny. This is probably how ALL of Danny’s ‘excruciating self-discovery’ conversations start: with Danny steadfastly refusing to ask the question he’s actually asking, thus denying Joe the opportunity to answer the question Danny’s really asking and thus, double-plus bad, causing Joe to miss a catch, so to speak.
It’s exhausting to always have to ask ‘what does that mean’ or ‘is that really what you mean’ after every single thing someone says to you. I don’t blame Joe for wanting a clear idea of Danny’s motivations and expectations of him, even if his phrasing is unkind.
That may be the intended interpretation, but the way he says “Of course not” just feels slimy and a bit homophobic to me. It really only makes sense to say it like that if it was actually an insult to be asked if you had had homosexual feelings, which it’s not.
Also because most of his tone seems accusatory, which I feel is really unhealthy for someone who is…well, pretty obviously struggling with their identity, and shouldn’t be made to feel bad about asking.
Also the bi-erasure. Definintely icky.
I don’t think the “Of course not” is in and of itself homophobic. If you asked Becky whether she had any romantic or lustful feelings for dudes lately, she’d very likely say that too. It’s not whether or not Joe is implying “gay = bad,” it’s whether or not Danny is implying that “Joe = liar” considering Joe has ever only talked about girls.
Joe’s casual/oblivious bi-erasure is a little problematic, I’ll give you that (my friends include more bi women than hetero women and it irks me to see queer-erasure happen), but that’s distracting from the main problem: that Danny won’t get the help he needs with his excruciating self-discovery if he can’t bring himself to drop the pretenses and ask for it directly.
I’m going to assume “straight answer” was not an intentional pun.
I am impressed, he didn’t open with the expected homophobic statement, and said that his discomfort with the question was due to the potential emotional involvement, rather than the uncomfortable subject matter.
What we have here is a failure to communicate! (Neat-o to Joe for being perceptive, though.)
Hey, Dave? Mr. Willis, sir?
When you update the FAQ, will it address the issue of why Danny and Joe bother speaking to each other at all?
They’ve been together since they were kids. Danny strikes me as the kind of person unable to let go of people once he’s gotten attached to them, while Joe’s waiting for the day Danny starts casual banging like him.
I am, however, hoping that this ends with both of them refusing to do this song and dance for a while. I’m really, really sick of “Danny has a problem, Joe acts like an asshole, repeat ad infinitum.+”
Huh. That’s actually a pretty good explanation as to why they’ve stayed friends.
+1
Maybe someday Danny will ask Joe how he’s doing and feeling instead of it always being all about Danny and his needs.
Danny’s such a selfish bastard looking towards his best friend to try and help figure out his uncertainties about his sexuality. Talking about boners is basically all Joe is good for anyway.
Joe’s barely even a bit character. He only exists for played out conversations with Danny and occasionally hanging out with Dorothy.
pretty sure joe doesnt WANT people asking how hes feels most of the time but okay, hold onto your danny grudge
also i mean he literally was asking about joe here, and trying to associate his issues with joe’s. meanwhile joe is trying to get him to be more open–hes the one turning it back around on to danny
I have a feeling that if danny did come out, Joe’s response would simply be to constantly asked him if he nailed any guys, and then high five if he did.
That… is a surprisingly sensitive, and reasonable, answer.