Except Joyce is pretty certain she’s straight or Becky’s coming out to her would have gone a bit differently and probably would have involved a ‘fade to Slipshine’.
Except Ethan isn’t pretending to be straight for religion’s sake, he’s hiding his gayness because he’s sick and tired of people acting like his gayness is his sole defining/interesting feature. Joyce isn’t going to suddenly change how Americans treat homosexuality as something special, so she can totally keep her faux-boyfriend and girl friend.
I was going to say this. Furthermore, Joyce’s reasearch has nothing to do with the issue of whether sexual orientation is inate, how harmful it is to “fake it”, etc. If Ethan chooses to go on “playing it straight” for reasons that have nothing to do with Joyce, Joyce is not being a hypocrite by choosing to play along.
Of course we are watching a slow-motion train wreck in progress, but that is what generates story arcs for the webcomic.
Well, we are talking about Christians here. Logic, reason, and even morality have no say in their decision-making process – just, whether or not God says it’s OK.
(2) They’ve been working together to “fix” him. Now that his homosexuality isn’t what needs to be fixed, she can work with him to fix the real problem: his crippling need to be straight.
Meh. Joyce isn’t likely to lose faith. A belief that firmly held, and earnestly held, isn’t going to be destroyed that easily. She’ll have a crisis, and then realize that she’s just disregarding dogma, not faith.
Christ’s criteria were pretty specific. And the only New Testament references to Homosexuality were made by Paul anyway. Paul ain’t Jesus. Yesua. Whatever.
I know someone who lost their faith at least in part because a friend of his is gay. That, as far as I know, is what made him investigate other parts of his religion.
I was almost in the same position as Joyce on basically all of the issues when I started college and lost that firmly held belief when I learned about evolution.
Given the author’s own life history, I’m betting on Joyce losing her faith eventually, if not over this issue.
And that will soon be accompanied by a massive and catastrophic emotional breakdown. And, if my theories are orrect, that will be followed by a psychotic break, and the introduction of the DoA universe’s version of Anti-Joyce.
How long does an average bj take? Let’s assume ten minutes, easy to convert.
For a million dicks that would take, not accounting for any breaks, a good 190 years. In a row.
I could. But then, my standards are not only high, they are also fairly esoteric.
I also don’t find someone attractive until I get a sense of their personality, so that cuts out most randomly encountered people as well as most people I know in only one context.
I’m not thinking the literal uninhibited personality matters so much as Joyce having to confront the fact that she has these urges. Anti-Joyce has been inside her all along~
The massive and catastrophic emotional breakdown, though, THAT’S a given.
Wait, did the original passage say “water to blood” or something like that? If you answer “yes”, I will bring a scanned comic book page to class tomorrow.
How Rude! I’ll fart in your cereal!
[The last supper is the big meal Jesus had with his 12 disciples where her revealed that one of them (spoiler alert: JUDAS) would betray him. He then gave them wine and bread and said that they were his blood and bones respectively. And that is why the christian faith eats bread and drinks wine at church]
Bible Patch 2.04:
Added new features to Noah’s flood, including:
Baby-killing
Rock angels
Russel Crowe
Added passages in Deuteronomy condemning consumption of sloths, carp, orangutans, breakfast cereals, and fruit bats
Although you have to admit, Weeping Angles explain every prophesy ever told by these guys – if you’ve been to the future, you know EXACTLY what it is that will happen, so you know what lies to tell.
Or maybe Ethan can realize that he is actually Bi, and that way he and Joyce can move forward with their relationship. One thing that always kill me when it came to homo and hetero relationships is people always have to be one or the other; its like both no longer exist anymore.
From my point of view Ethan is in this zone where he *has* to be this or *has* to be that. When he was with Amber, he learned he has a interest in guys; that is great……. no unfortunately a label is attached to him. Just because the relationship with Amber crashed, doesn’t mean it would with a different woman or BOOM its going to succeed with a man.
Personally I see too much energy being put into those labels than actual self fulfillment. Shoot, a couple of strips back he almost stopped eating a chicken sandwich because he learned Chick-fil-la gave money to groups that were anti-gay. I guess to put it in my terms, fuck the concept that is placed there and just try to move forward.
Ethan is gay, and not bi, because if he’s bi it undermines the message that gay people don’t have a choice of who they are attracted to and could choose to go out with members of the opposite sex if they want.
You are right that bisexuals are often pressured to choose one or the other, but that doesn’t make any specific individual bisexual. In many stories, a person has a clearly heterosexual relationship and then a homosexual relationship and, for some reason can then never go back to a heterosexual relationship. (I’m looking at Willow from BtVS.) That’s practically the definition of bisexual invisibility.
I don’t think this is one of those situations. 1) Amber appears to be a beard, not someone he had actual sexual attraction to. 2) He’s never shown being attracted to a girl. 3) He’s expressed dismay that he’s not attracted to girls.
Another reason is that there bisexuals in the comic. Billy and Danny are probably the most obvious examples.
While I agree that labels can be problems, particularly if you feel forced to choose a label that doesn’t seem to fit right. (Says the guy he forces people to choose between Deception or looser Autobot.) Ethan doesn’t seem to feel that gay isn’t the right label. Sometimes people really are gay.
I really, really, wish I could edit comments. Just to make it absolutely clear, I believe that Ethan is about showing that gay people are attracted to the same sex, and that it’s not a choice that can be corrected. Ethan could pretend to love a woman, but it would be pretending. It wouldn’t be love. He can’t just choose to date a woman and have the same kind of relationship with her that a couple of strait people would have.
There’s a number of characters in this comic whom I might suspect of being bi. Ethan is not one of them. Yes, there’s bi-erasure in our society, and it’s a horrible thing in its own right. But insisting that someone who has shown no sexual interest in women whatsoever is bi is just as bad. Sexual identity is not something we control. Gay, straight, bi, etc–all exist, and all should be respected, particularly in cases of self-identification.
You might have had a point, except we have word of god that Ethan is gay. It sounds like the plotline you’re looking for is the one Danny is undergoing.
That actually drives me nuts as applied to Richard Lionheart. “He was gay!” yells one camp, brandishing a bunch of evidence. “No, he was straight!” yells the other camp, brandishing evidence for that. And (until relatively recently; I hear they may have changed although who the hell knows) the argument went:
“Gay!”
“Straight!”
“GAY!”
“STRAIGHT!”
“GAY!!”
“STRAIGHT!!”
–And no one seemed to realize that what they actually had was a really good, solid argument for bi.
Lincoln was besties with a guy named Joshua Speed who was also his roommate for a while. Larry Kramer has been working on an American history book for over thirty years and claims that, as part of his research, he’s seen a secret diary of Speed’s that confirms that they were lovers; the book is way overdue and most people seem to think that Kramer was taken in by a hoax diary.
It sounds like Ethan has had some time to ponder this, and really is gay; Danny, on the other hand, needs to have the concept of “bi” explained to him pronto before he messes things up with Amber. Their “prom night” went quite well; no matter how much Danny may be attracted to men, his boner for Amazi-Girl is genuine.
Pssh… I got a 500% refund, not only for this strip, but for all the others I’ve read, as well (strips read multiple times also got multiple refunds!). And I didn’t even have to ask for them, he just sent it to me knowing I deserved it.
Gay, Jewish boyfriend. So the possible loophole doesn’t even really apply for him by her logic. Still, I am glad Sarah’s getting her little sister to see some of the problems inherit to her system.
“Aww crud. If I tell him, he might not want to date me any more. Also, I didn’t look this up for him, so what if he thinks me less than for thinking of Becky more than I thought of him!” – Joyce’s brain. Also, did something just fall into the “science” bin (Yes, it counts. This research goes under “theology” because it’s based on research, furthering understanding, and testing a “theory” [acceptable definition due to evidence collected her entire life, even if that evidence was gained through a poor method and without verification of said evidence])
I don’t think this quite counts as falling in the science bin, at least not today. Her notions got changed when she decided she loved Becky more than she cared about her pre-conceived notions. Now she’s just rearranging information to fit with her new beliefs.
Also about Ethan, I think he cares enough about her he’d continue to “date” her until she feels safe. Maybe they’ll keep it up in public but no longer have to lie against each other and themselves.
Then again, this is a comic written by David M Willis, so that seems like far to positive an outcome…
ah, and now she’s faced with a new dilemma! If she accepts homosexuality then she loses her flimsy excuse to date Ethan despite knowing it’s wrong. But she feels she needs him to feel safe, but if she keeps it up she can no longer pretend she’s not hurting him and by extention Becky.
Like I mentioned above, I don’t think the sham is needed for her to hang around with Ethan, they clearly care about each other and he’s more than willing to hang around her to make her feel safe. And hopefully this means they won’t have to lie to themselves and each other anymore. Now whether they’ll still act like they’re dating to the outside world is another question altogether.
Well, going with the “New Testament allows some things the OT doesn’t” approach she’s using right now, gay men are still a no-no, actually; one of Paul’s letters makes that explicitly clear. OTOH, by the same letter, lesbians weren’t acting in disobedience to God’s will; instead, He turned the women of one city to ‘unnatural lusts’ as a punishment to the men there who’d ceased to believe. So God made lesbians to punish straight male atheists.
If internet pr0n is any indication, this was yet another example of God having really, really bad aim.
Yeah, but he thought it through and on the second attempt created all those cute, intelligent Jewish women to punish straight male atheists. That worked.
Depends where you’re at. Old testament, Buttsex is technically bad, but in the same way that non-kosher is bad – it’s “unclean”. So a cheese burger = Buttsex.
Different scholars are divided over the issue of buttsex, so much so that a schism has formed within the Christian community. Various groups have differing stances on the issue. In other words, the issue of buttsex has formed numerous examples of buttsects.
‘Well, he doesn’t think it’s sinful, he just wants to be the Toy Guy, not the Gay Guy. So the only difference now is I can go on bearding for him without all the pressure of having to fix him. So it’s still totally win win.’
Indeed, not to mention if she accepts him for who he is regardless of his sexual preference it might make him see that he can be openly gay without that defining him. Remember this is college not high school, I’m pretty sure being gay isn’t going to matter nearly as much as Ethan thinks.
The key problem for Ethan is that it still matters so intensely to his parents, who are up there with Joyce’s in terms of being in need of a good rolled-up newspaper across the snout. He’s going to have to address that issue before he can be remotely comfortable with his own sexuality–either by goading them into acceptance, or by accepting their hostility.
Course it didn’t. It came from MEEEEEEE. IIIIIIII DOOOOOOON’T LIIIIIIIIIIIIkEEEEEEEEEEEE tOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MaaaaaaaaaKeeeeeee sense. 🙂 Nonsense is so much more fun, and gets much more interesting reactions. ;D
I feel like this is the story arc where Joyce’s world comes crashing down around her ears. I give it two weeks before she finds out her brother is actually her sister
Well consider the following facts:
She now has to talk to Ethan openly
Ethan knows about Jocelyne
I think there’s a good chance this comes out in the current storyline or at least this book. But we won’t truly know till it happens (though Willis does)
Whether or not Ethan can come to terms with his faith and sexuality is one thing. He doesn’t actually seem self-hating for his sexuality alone. Ethan is scared of being rejected and hated by his parents, the people who are supposed to love him. He wants /their/ love and approval, not God’s. And he knows he won’t get it if he chooses to be true to himself.
I think Joyce’s acceptance/break-up would be helpful for him, as a friend, but Ethan is never going to accept himself and his religion as being compatible until he can let go of his parents’ opinions.
Sarah, keeping Joyce honest as always. She doesn’t seem judgmental here, more genuinely interested in hearing Joyce’s conclusions, since it’s the first time she’s really questioning what she was taught.
…Becky is awake and listening in on the conversation right now, isn’t she? Her heart is both breaking and swelling with pride for Joyce at the same time as it’s needled with her own anxieties about what her sexuality means for her immortal soul.
Well we’re not seeing the bed anymore, so there’s no contextual clues. However I do rather like the idea that she’s not as asleep as Joyce might be thinking and a big old hug is coming up very soon.
Yknow. I’m not really sure why Sarah had beef with Ruth in the first place. She does care about a stranger Ethan’s help. And she respected Jacob’s boundary
Sarah has beef with every body. it’s her thang. (I can’t believe I just typed that.)
Plus, Ruth had to drag her to the first floor meeting. That’s got to cause hard feelings.
Dammit Sarah, don’t stand in the way of progress! Just let the bias flow, let it cleanse Joyce of her brainwashing, don’t providing a conflicting bias god damn it!
I just had a vision of Joyce. in her internet research on this subject, stumbling across the debate on the topic in the comments sections of the last couple of strips, and having a complete existential freakout when she realized what this website was.
Ah… that makes sense. God didn’t exile A&E from Garden of Eden because they gained knowledge, but because they gained modesty. With clothes on, they couldn’t be his 24/7 pornshow.
that is NOT helping! Even if that explains why there is less body shaming in nudist cultures. GAH! WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING TO ME?!?! I’ve already make a whole gross romance scene on http://www.dreamcatchercomic.com/ , and now I’m ASSISTING in making god out to be porn lord!
Yeah, I think I saw a Youtube on that. But I’m still not doing the video exorsizm. (Kidding, it was definitely a cable.)
[KIDDING! DEFINITELY A TV SHOW ON THE LATER IN WHICH THE FORMER WAS REFERENCED! DON’T EXCOMMUNICATE ME FOR USING YOUTUBE WRONG!]
{GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I’M SORRY ELDERS OF THE INTERNET! I’LL BE GOOD FROM NOW ON! *screams horrifically*}
Poor Joyce just can’t win…. Wait how strictly is Joyce’s story autobiographical? Did David have a lesbian girlfriend in college while at the same time trying to deal with his best friend who ran away from college and confessed his love to you?
Sorry just read the rules for the first time recently and Now I’m kind of curious
Willis, from my understanding, did date a girl in college who (after the time they were dating) turned out to be a lesbian, so, that bit is partly autobiographical.
I never liked Joyce’s decision to date Ethan in the first place.
Seems to me less like she was trying to “cure” his homosexuality, and more like she was just conditioning him to be a good husband for her ideal family fantasy. A selfish, stupid, naive decision. But then again, “naive” is Joyce’s middle name.
Well, it may have started out like that, but it was ALSO a chance for her to feel safe and not threatened by every shadow and unidentified figure when she’s outside; she needs him for protection (from the spectre of Ryan) as much as he needs her for the beard…
(and I know my avatar is Sarah looking critically, and I think it’s perfect for this rebuttal >:) )
On one hand, I like that Sarah is acting as a productive and useful advocatus diaboli (heh) to actually help Joyce deal with loopholes in her arguments and thought processes and help her form a more stable and reliable… I dunno – ‘set of ethics and morals’?
…but on the other, I worry whether Sarah REALIZES she’s filling this role, and might not be doing it consciously, and instead is just heckling Joyce? And if so, she might end up pushing Joyce into a very damaging place psychologically. :S
Sarah looks genuinely concerned in these panels, so I don’t think she’s doing this to be a heckler. Compare her face in this strip to yesterday’s, when she was frustrated. Them eyes, they are full of compassion.
Although it is possible that she is heckling her to force Joyce to begin actually choosing her beliefs based on the situations she encounters, and giving her to tools she needs NOT to be a hypocrite. When she was being dishonest, Sarah called her out on it, and when she was applying the rule to one person, but not another, Sarah called her out on it again. So it’s not so much Sarah choosing to push her to a place psychologically, but forcing Joyce to make the decisions that will define her as a person, such as if she is going to look at being gay as a sin or not, and weather it’s okay to reconsider her ideas based on researching information about her sources.
It’s that pre-law training. I know a few lawyers before they became such, and they almost instinctively found ways to punch holes in any half-formed logic. The actual training in law only made that punching more potent.
Its cinderbricks today, it will be cruise missiles when Sarah’s an attorney.
Depends on who gets to define “Christian”. As one example, I once dated a woman who defined the word “Christian” to exclude anyone who believed that evolution has taken place, no matter what people may call themselves.
Uh, Ethan’s Jewish and I kind of hope part of this storyline is Joyce saying “What you need is not me trying to make you something you ain’t just so I can feel safe, what you need is a nice nerdy Jewish boyfriend”.
Ethan decided on his own to “play it straight” for reasons that had nothing to do with Joyce–to him, she is merely a placeholder girlfriend, for those occasions when his life would be easier if he could refer to someone as his girlfriend. Joyce at least has impure thoughts about Ethan while showering, so the “relationship” is marginally less phony from her end.
Shrug. I am probably some sort of philistine but I really can’t take Paul serious. I have to admit that he is the founder of the most successful world religion so far but I don’t understand why he had to drag Jesus into it. Christianity has appallingly little to do with Jesus. But then that’s the point of the “Historical Jesus” character in ShortPacked already, so I am kind of late to the game.
Yes, there are a few lists of “sinful” people in the NT where some Greek words are popularly interpreted as referring to homosexuals. Though the word Paul made up is basically a compound of the Greek words for “man” and “bed”, likely derived from the Greek translation of “men who lie with men” from the OT.
Still, if we accept Joyce’s argument, it still looks like she forgot that Romans 1:26-27 features a clear description of men lusting for men where it’s labeled as shameful (it also features women committing “unnatural relations” without specifying what this is supposed to refer to, but people like to assume it’s lesbianism).
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Hit a nerve on that one.
HAHAH DAM IT SARAH!
She’s not wrong.
And Joyce dies a little inside.
Don’t think of it as choosing between having a gay friend or a gay boyfriend. Think of it as having two gay friends!
So you see, the glass if half full. Of gayness.
But between two halves, one of Becky and one of Ethan, you get a full glass of gayness.
Nah, the other half is full of river water.
You know, from ‘de Nile’.
What you did there. I see it.
Glass full of gayness is a great name for a country act.
Or a gay friend and a gay girlfriend. Everyone else is joining the club. How did Billie put it? It’s practically inevitable.
Except Joyce is pretty certain she’s straight or Becky’s coming out to her would have gone a bit differently and probably would have involved a ‘fade to Slipshine’.
Even if Joyce were into girls the tiniest bit, there would be no way Joyce would ever submit to PMHP.
Since Joyce is based on Willis and seeing how he ended up being an internet porn lord, I wouldn’t be too sure.
So you see, the glass if half full. Of gayness.
This comment shows once again how much I need an “upvote” button on here.
Except Ethan isn’t pretending to be straight for religion’s sake, he’s hiding his gayness because he’s sick and tired of people acting like his gayness is his sole defining/interesting feature. Joyce isn’t going to suddenly change how Americans treat homosexuality as something special, so she can totally keep her faux-boyfriend and girl friend.
…and there goes that cute little triangular smile again.
Damn you Sarah! and you too Willis! 😛
I was going to say this. Furthermore, Joyce’s reasearch has nothing to do with the issue of whether sexual orientation is inate, how harmful it is to “fake it”, etc. If Ethan chooses to go on “playing it straight” for reasons that have nothing to do with Joyce, Joyce is not being a hypocrite by choosing to play along.
Of course we are watching a slow-motion train wreck in progress, but that is what generates story arcs for the webcomic.
Well, we are talking about Christians here. Logic, reason, and even morality have no say in their decision-making process – just, whether or not God says it’s OK.
If God had not wanted us to eat our fellow humans, he’d not have made them out of meat but rather clay or something.
Remind me never to consider a dinner invitation from you
Especially if asked to bring a side dish of fava beans.
I’ll bring the chianti!
Two things:
(1) We know from previous pages that Ethan is only partly her boyfriend because she lusts after him in her heart, but rather because he makes her feel safe (http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/04-the-whiteboard-dong-bandit/somewhere/)
(2) They’ve been working together to “fix” him. Now that his homosexuality isn’t what needs to be fixed, she can work with him to fix the real problem: his crippling need to be straight.
Look at the bright side, Joyce! You get to be one of those people who say they can’t be bigoted against gays because they have gay friends!
Out of the frier and into the fire.
She’s in the “bargaining” stage of grieving over the faith she’s beginning to lose…
Meh. Joyce isn’t likely to lose faith. A belief that firmly held, and earnestly held, isn’t going to be destroyed that easily. She’ll have a crisis, and then realize that she’s just disregarding dogma, not faith.
Christ’s criteria were pretty specific. And the only New Testament references to Homosexuality were made by Paul anyway. Paul ain’t Jesus. Yesua. Whatever.
I know someone who lost their faith at least in part because a friend of his is gay. That, as far as I know, is what made him investigate other parts of his religion.
I was almost in the same position as Joyce on basically all of the issues when I started college and lost that firmly held belief when I learned about evolution.
Given the author’s own life history, I’m betting on Joyce losing her faith eventually, if not over this issue.
“Oh right, I have one of those.”
Yaaay, she’s making progress!
And that will soon be accompanied by a massive and catastrophic emotional breakdown. And, if my theories are orrect, that will be followed by a psychotic break, and the introduction of the DoA universe’s version of Anti-Joyce.
Now, was it a billion or a million dicks that were forecast? Either way’d be a logistical nightmare.
In a row?
Are you even supposed to be here today?
A billion erect dicks of average length, layed end to end, would reach around the earth almost 3 and a half times.
She’s sucking ’em, not laying ’em.
How long does an average bj take? Let’s assume ten minutes, easy to convert.
For a million dicks that would take, not accounting for any breaks, a good 190 years. In a row.
You can’t sleep with everyone you find attractive, logistically, unless you have very high standards indeed.
I could. But then, my standards are not only high, they are also fairly esoteric.
I also don’t find someone attractive until I get a sense of their personality, so that cuts out most randomly encountered people as well as most people I know in only one context.
I have a heavily self-sabotaging sex drive.
I’m sure you’d be allowed to suck the same dicks, several times. That’d cut down on your logistics significantly.
Not enough to make it manageable, but still significant.
I’m not thinking the literal uninhibited personality matters so much as Joyce having to confront the fact that she has these urges. Anti-Joyce has been inside her all along~
The massive and catastrophic emotional breakdown, though, THAT’S a given.
I’m just waiting for her to actually confront those urges. Anti-Joyce or not, that ain’t gonna be pretty.
And soon a billion dicks will be inside the Anti-Joyce!
Bible Patch 2.02
Cleaned up textures
Removed passage that King James didn’t like
Enhanced pants.
Yay, pants!
Patch Notes
Added more loaves and fish
Blood changed to “Wine” as to be less gross.
Secret ending to the crucifixian plotline.
Wait, did the original passage say “water to blood” or something like that? If you answer “yes”, I will bring a scanned comic book page to class tomorrow.
He’s referencing the last supper, I believe, not the conversion of water to wine.
Never heard of that one, what medium is it in? Also, do I want to go looking it up? Yotomoe can get pretty gross at times.
How Rude! I’ll fart in your cereal!
[The last supper is the big meal Jesus had with his 12 disciples where her revealed that one of them (spoiler alert: JUDAS) would betray him. He then gave them wine and bread and said that they were his blood and bones respectively. And that is why the christian faith eats bread and drinks wine at church]
Says the one who did Dina and Faz! That is NOT an okay combo! Not an okay combo at all!
It’s 50 shades of OK!
Dina and Faz r34? Ew….
Link?
http://i.imgur.com/ohfpbBa.png?1 and it was horrible
And Khrene embodies what it means to be on the Internet with six words. Win.
Even I forgot I drew this. Don’t worry Rachel. I’ll draw an even BETTER one someday.
Yotomoe sit in the corner and think about what you’ve done.
*MOAN* Please YoToMoe, I had to look at that one again just to identify it, and I really don’t want to see another. *groan*
Removed Herobrine
Bible Patch 2.03
Removed most of Paul’s letters, because seriously, screw that guy
removed ‘handlebar moustache’ bug
Bible Patch 2.04:
Added new features to Noah’s flood, including:
Baby-killing
Rock angels
Russel Crowe
Added passages in Deuteronomy condemning consumption of sloths, carp, orangutans, breakfast cereals, and fruit bats
Wait, rock angels? Do they move when you’re not looking?
That would have made that movie MUCH more interesting.
Hermione Granger fights the Weeping Angels? Hells yeah I’d watch that movie!
…sadly, that is not what we got. :/
Although you have to admit, Weeping Angles explain every prophesy ever told by these guys – if you’ve been to the future, you know EXACTLY what it is that will happen, so you know what lies to tell.
Who?
This was what i thought of when I heard rock angels.
Yaaaay!
Removed Herodbrine.
It’s posts like Khaner’s that make me sad there’s no “like” functionality here. 🙁
Apparently Bible 2 is a thing, and it looks kind of awesome:
http://www.trepidation-comics.com/Bible-2.html
To Tell or not to tell, that is the question!
Maybe Joyce can arrange for a “don’t ask don’t tell” rule with Becky and Ethan. That way nothing can ever go wrong.
Or maybe Ethan can realize that he is actually Bi, and that way he and Joyce can move forward with their relationship. One thing that always kill me when it came to homo and hetero relationships is people always have to be one or the other; its like both no longer exist anymore.
But Ethan *is* gay, or he would still be with Amber.
From my point of view Ethan is in this zone where he *has* to be this or *has* to be that. When he was with Amber, he learned he has a interest in guys; that is great……. no unfortunately a label is attached to him. Just because the relationship with Amber crashed, doesn’t mean it would with a different woman or BOOM its going to succeed with a man.
Personally I see too much energy being put into those labels than actual self fulfillment. Shoot, a couple of strips back he almost stopped eating a chicken sandwich because he learned Chick-fil-la gave money to groups that were anti-gay. I guess to put it in my terms, fuck the concept that is placed there and just try to move forward.
I think you’ve seriously misunderstood the comic.
Just because I didn’t agree with its direction, doesn’t mean I didn’t understand the comic.
Ethan is gay, and not bi, because if he’s bi it undermines the message that gay people don’t have a choice of who they are attracted to and could choose to go out with members of the opposite sex if they want.
You are right that bisexuals are often pressured to choose one or the other, but that doesn’t make any specific individual bisexual. In many stories, a person has a clearly heterosexual relationship and then a homosexual relationship and, for some reason can then never go back to a heterosexual relationship. (I’m looking at Willow from BtVS.) That’s practically the definition of bisexual invisibility.
I don’t think this is one of those situations. 1) Amber appears to be a beard, not someone he had actual sexual attraction to. 2) He’s never shown being attracted to a girl. 3) He’s expressed dismay that he’s not attracted to girls.
Another reason is that there bisexuals in the comic. Billy and Danny are probably the most obvious examples.
While I agree that labels can be problems, particularly if you feel forced to choose a label that doesn’t seem to fit right. (Says the guy he forces people to choose between Deception or looser Autobot.) Ethan doesn’t seem to feel that gay isn’t the right label. Sometimes people really are gay.
I really, really, wish I could edit comments. Just to make it absolutely clear, I believe that Ethan is about showing that gay people are attracted to the same sex, and that it’s not a choice that can be corrected. Ethan could pretend to love a woman, but it would be pretending. It wouldn’t be love. He can’t just choose to date a woman and have the same kind of relationship with her that a couple of strait people would have.
That’s an extremely nuanced and well founded viewpoint about sexual identity coming from a species that doesn’t reproduce that way!
There’s a number of characters in this comic whom I might suspect of being bi. Ethan is not one of them. Yes, there’s bi-erasure in our society, and it’s a horrible thing in its own right. But insisting that someone who has shown no sexual interest in women whatsoever is bi is just as bad. Sexual identity is not something we control. Gay, straight, bi, etc–all exist, and all should be respected, particularly in cases of self-identification.
I can’t reply to your comment for some reason o.O…
anyways, I understand where you’re coming from, so I’ll just leave it at that.
You might have had a point, except we have word of god that Ethan is gay. It sounds like the plotline you’re looking for is the one Danny is undergoing.
That actually drives me nuts as applied to Richard Lionheart. “He was gay!” yells one camp, brandishing a bunch of evidence. “No, he was straight!” yells the other camp, brandishing evidence for that. And (until relatively recently; I hear they may have changed although who the hell knows) the argument went:
“Gay!”
“Straight!”
“GAY!”
“STRAIGHT!”
“GAY!!”
“STRAIGHT!!”
–And no one seemed to realize that what they actually had was a really good, solid argument for bi.
See also: Abraham Lincoln.
Wait, what? I knew Buchanan was gay but, what?
Lincoln was besties with a guy named Joshua Speed who was also his roommate for a while. Larry Kramer has been working on an American history book for over thirty years and claims that, as part of his research, he’s seen a secret diary of Speed’s that confirms that they were lovers; the book is way overdue and most people seem to think that Kramer was taken in by a hoax diary.
I’ve only read a little about the ‘Lincoln was gay’ theory, but I find it unconvincing.
It sounds like Ethan has had some time to ponder this, and really is gay; Danny, on the other hand, needs to have the concept of “bi” explained to him pronto before he messes things up with Amber. Their “prom night” went quite well; no matter how much Danny may be attracted to men, his boner for Amazi-Girl is genuine.
Neither Becky nor her leg is in today’s strip. I want a refund!
Oh, wait…
Willis offered me a 120% refund. Don’t you feel silly for only demanding a full refund?
Pssh… I got a 500% refund, not only for this strip, but for all the others I’ve read, as well (strips read multiple times also got multiple refunds!). And I didn’t even have to ask for them, he just sent it to me knowing I deserved it.
Dereshishishishi!
I may sound like a monster but I like when Joyce gets the verbal smackdown.
I enjoy it too and it’s because I love Joyce. It’s the only way she’ll learn, though.
I think of Joyce as a humanoid puppy, and Sarah’s wit as a rolled up newspaper.
“Bad Joyce. Not on the carpet.”
She didn’t need a verbal smackdown to stand up to her parents. Dina gave her a verbal smackdown about evolution and she learned nothing.
Everyone does, so we’re all monsters
Is that Jaguar D Saul’s and young Robin’s laugh?
Shurorororororororo!
You’d better believe it. I love distinct laughter!
Horohorohorohorohoro!
That was Caesar Clown’s.
Also Perona’s!
Zehahahahahahahaha
You do *that* laugh? Ok, officially scared of you now!
Good ol’ Sarah. As harsh as it may seem, she’s grounding Joyce to the actual issues at play here.
I have to say though, it makes me miss the Mike method of social correction. This way has far less convoluted plans.
We always need a dose of Sarah every now and again.
Sarah gets it done. *snap*
The mike way was a lot more funner and was more effective.
Mike is indeed the funnerest of all.
Captain! We have reached MAXIMUM LOOPHOLE!
REVERSE ENGINES! FULL POWER!!
Joyce it’s time for you to embrace the yaoi girl trapped inside of yourself and hook Ethan up with Danny.
And then Embrace the yuri girl trapped inside you and hook up Yourself and Becky. And maybe Dotty. No president is complete without a scandal.
And strand Amber in the Amazon. For laughs.
Gay, Jewish boyfriend. So the possible loophole doesn’t even really apply for him by her logic. Still, I am glad Sarah’s getting her little sister to see some of the problems inherit to her system.
Well, he wasn’t getting into heaven ANYWAY so I might as well…
Don’t be silly. Christianity applies to everybody!
It’s just that the ones who don’t know it are going to hell.
“Aww crud. If I tell him, he might not want to date me any more. Also, I didn’t look this up for him, so what if he thinks me less than for thinking of Becky more than I thought of him!” – Joyce’s brain. Also, did something just fall into the “science” bin (Yes, it counts. This research goes under “theology” because it’s based on research, furthering understanding, and testing a “theory” [acceptable definition due to evidence collected her entire life, even if that evidence was gained through a poor method and without verification of said evidence])
I don’t think this quite counts as falling in the science bin, at least not today. Her notions got changed when she decided she loved Becky more than she cared about her pre-conceived notions. Now she’s just rearranging information to fit with her new beliefs.
Also about Ethan, I think he cares enough about her he’d continue to “date” her until she feels safe. Maybe they’ll keep it up in public but no longer have to lie against each other and themselves.
Then again, this is a comic written by David M Willis, so that seems like far to positive an outcome…
Wow… I heard her good mood die just now… it was kinda funny.
The saddest trombone ever.
Like the little losing noise from The Price is Right?
I had to YouTube that (not a regular TPIR watcher). Indeed – saddest trombone (or horn-ish instrument) ever.
ah, and now she’s faced with a new dilemma! If she accepts homosexuality then she loses her flimsy excuse to date Ethan despite knowing it’s wrong. But she feels she needs him to feel safe, but if she keeps it up she can no longer pretend she’s not hurting him and by extention Becky.
Like I mentioned above, I don’t think the sham is needed for her to hang around with Ethan, they clearly care about each other and he’s more than willing to hang around her to make her feel safe. And hopefully this means they won’t have to lie to themselves and each other anymore. Now whether they’ll still act like they’re dating to the outside world is another question altogether.
They could make good Heterosexual Life Partners in that case I think and maybe help Ethan put together a sort of “family by choice”.
Easy solution: Dump Ethan and date Becky instead!
Never happen, Becky’s like a sister to her. Dorothy, Sal and Billie have a better chance.
So which one gets Becky and which ones gets Joyce?
Billie: “So my choices are Joyce… and gender-swapped Walky? No thanks. The rest of you can have them.”
Billie and Ruth. Threesome for the win!
Because nothing turns on a third party like depressed, self-destructive, suicidal alcoholics.
It’s working for me!
If my dating history is anything to go by… um… **raises hand**
Perfect!
Even if you can prove that being gay is AOK in the Bible, but is buttsecks also allowed?
I dunno. God’s probably still just holding a grudge on those sodomites who came on to his angels.
Buttsecks is not actually necessary despite how much of a big deal heteros make about it.
Most people see Sex “insert, Pump, Done” Without realizing there’s a lot more you could do.
Which I think is why buttsecks is so widely thought about by heterosexual people.
Well, going with the “New Testament allows some things the OT doesn’t” approach she’s using right now, gay men are still a no-no, actually; one of Paul’s letters makes that explicitly clear. OTOH, by the same letter, lesbians weren’t acting in disobedience to God’s will; instead, He turned the women of one city to ‘unnatural lusts’ as a punishment to the men there who’d ceased to believe. So God made lesbians to punish straight male atheists.
If internet pr0n is any indication, this was yet another example of God having really, really bad aim.
Yeah, but he thought it through and on the second attempt created all those cute, intelligent Jewish women to punish straight male atheists. That worked.
Depends where you’re at. Old testament, Buttsex is technically bad, but in the same way that non-kosher is bad – it’s “unclean”. So a cheese burger = Buttsex.
No, a hamburger = Buttsex. A cheeseburger equals Buttsex With Lube.
While in France, it’s a Buttsex Royale with dick-cheese!
Different scholars are divided over the issue of buttsex, so much so that a schism has formed within the Christian community. Various groups have differing stances on the issue. In other words, the issue of buttsex has formed numerous examples of buttsects.
*walks up to nothri with tray in hand*
“Your internet, sir and/or madam.”
‘Well, he doesn’t think it’s sinful, he just wants to be the Toy Guy, not the Gay Guy. So the only difference now is I can go on bearding for him without all the pressure of having to fix him. So it’s still totally win win.’
Indeed, not to mention if she accepts him for who he is regardless of his sexual preference it might make him see that he can be openly gay without that defining him. Remember this is college not high school, I’m pretty sure being gay isn’t going to matter nearly as much as Ethan thinks.
The key problem for Ethan is that it still matters so intensely to his parents, who are up there with Joyce’s in terms of being in need of a good rolled-up newspaper across the snout. He’s going to have to address that issue before he can be remotely comfortable with his own sexuality–either by goading them into acceptance, or by accepting their hostility.
And that, children, is where ethics comes into play!
Our time or hers?
Oops, somehow attatched to the wrong comment
I was wondering. Didn’t make sense, but I still ran with it.
Course it didn’t. It came from MEEEEEEE. IIIIIIII DOOOOOOON’T LIIIIIIIIIIIIkEEEEEEEEEEEE tOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MaaaaaaaaaKeeeeeee sense. 🙂 Nonsense is so much more fun, and gets much more interesting reactions. ;D
How very Wonderland of you.
“We’re all mad here.”
Winter Wonderland to be precise.
Well no, I’m just cold.
Yes!
Unintended Consequences are Unintended
*takes off glasses in awe and revelation*
My God.
I feel like this is the story arc where Joyce’s world comes crashing down around her ears. I give it two weeks before she finds out her brother is actually her sister
Two weeks our time, or two weeks DoA time? Because two weeks in DoA is like two years for us.
Well consider the following facts:
She now has to talk to Ethan openly
Ethan knows about Jocelyne
I think there’s a good chance this comes out in the current storyline or at least this book. But we won’t truly know till it happens (though Willis does)
Our time or hers
edit: moved to correct comment
I’m tellin’ ya, as soon as that happens, Anti-Joyce is coming.
“Anti-Joyce is Coming” would be a good name for a Slipshine issue.
“…to tooooooown!”
Is she tap tap tapping on their window pains? To tell you she’s in town? No wait, wrong song.
Darn it, how’d the other one go?
“Go to college, find a good man to marry and keep being bestest of friends with Becky forever. Lord, was that REALLY too much to ask for?”
Yeah Kinda. You read my book. I’m kind of a dick to those who believe in me.
Job never had to deal with his best friend being on what might be the road to hell.
Unless his livestock were his friends. They probably went straight to hell.
His sons were.
Oh… Sorry to hear that, Job.
YHWH, you magnificent bastard! I read your book!
*snort*
*applause*
Whether or not Ethan can come to terms with his faith and sexuality is one thing. He doesn’t actually seem self-hating for his sexuality alone. Ethan is scared of being rejected and hated by his parents, the people who are supposed to love him. He wants /their/ love and approval, not God’s. And he knows he won’t get it if he chooses to be true to himself.
I think Joyce’s acceptance/break-up would be helpful for him, as a friend, but Ethan is never going to accept himself and his religion as being compatible until he can let go of his parents’ opinions.
I love how she’s steepling her fingers in panel two. Apparently it’s all falling into place?
Or she was pantomiming the church aisle for her and Ethan’s wedding.
“Excellent” – Mr. Burns
What was that Joyce speak up a little…
Check and mate.
Easy now Sarah. Give Joyce some time to process this new information, lest you break her brain.
Sarah, keeping Joyce honest as always. She doesn’t seem judgmental here, more genuinely interested in hearing Joyce’s conclusions, since it’s the first time she’s really questioning what she was taught.
Where is Becky’s leg? I miss Becky’s leg.
…Becky is awake and listening in on the conversation right now, isn’t she? Her heart is both breaking and swelling with pride for Joyce at the same time as it’s needled with her own anxieties about what her sexuality means for her immortal soul.
Well we’re not seeing the bed anymore, so there’s no contextual clues. However I do rather like the idea that she’s not as asleep as Joyce might be thinking and a big old hug is coming up very soon.
you will never see that leg Again. At least not by itself. It’s just not the same when it’s attached to the rest of her.
If someone had to say it, let it by Sarah.
She’ll tell him when he confesses that he’s actially Amazi-Girl.
SEXO LOCO!
*actually.
Curse this keyboard.
Don’t. It WILL get worse.
Yknow. I’m not really sure why Sarah had beef with Ruth in the first place. She does care about a stranger Ethan’s help. And she respected Jacob’s boundary
Sarah has beef with every body. it’s her thang. (I can’t believe I just typed that.)
Plus, Ruth had to drag her to the first floor meeting. That’s got to cause hard feelings.
This might be a bad moment for Joyce, but it’s good progress towards the EthanxDanny ship.
Dammit Sarah, don’t stand in the way of progress! Just let the bias flow, let it cleanse Joyce of her brainwashing, don’t providing a conflicting bias god damn it!
I just had a vision of Joyce. in her internet research on this subject, stumbling across the debate on the topic in the comments sections of the last couple of strips, and having a complete existential freakout when she realized what this website was.
Then Sam Neill walks in, says she’s been thinking on it to hard, and gives her some Sutter Cane books for some leisure reading.
“OUR GOD IS AN INTERNET PORN-LORD!” *collapses bubbling*
Oh, god… what I’m thinking right now…
Why man was created naked…
Ummmm, I mean…. Hellp [sic]
Ah… that makes sense. God didn’t exile A&E from Garden of Eden because they gained knowledge, but because they gained modesty. With clothes on, they couldn’t be his 24/7 pornshow.
that is NOT helping! Even if that explains why there is less body shaming in nudist cultures. GAH! WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING TO ME?!?! I’ve already make a whole gross romance scene on http://www.dreamcatchercomic.com/ , and now I’m ASSISTING in making god out to be porn lord!
This is the internet. It can turn a goodie-two-shoes fundie into a pornlord. You shouldn’t be surprised.
Yeah, I think I saw a Youtube on that. But I’m still not doing the video exorsizm. (Kidding, it was definitely a cable.)
[KIDDING! DEFINITELY A TV SHOW ON THE LATER IN WHICH THE FORMER WAS REFERENCED! DON’T EXCOMMUNICATE ME FOR USING YOUTUBE WRONG!]
{GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I’M SORRY ELDERS OF THE INTERNET! I’LL BE GOOD FROM NOW ON! *screams horrifically*}
God exiled A&E because they aren’t a very good network 😛
Pow, right in the logic!
Thank you, David Willis, for getting Gay Boyfriend stuck in my head again.
Oh, man, I forgot that it had a slur in the middle of it. D:
OH snap.
Poor Joyce just can’t win…. Wait how strictly is Joyce’s story autobiographical? Did David have a lesbian girlfriend in college while at the same time trying to deal with his best friend who ran away from college and confessed his love to you?
Sorry just read the rules for the first time recently and Now I’m kind of curious
Willis, from my understanding, did date a girl in college who (after the time they were dating) turned out to be a lesbian, so, that bit is partly autobiographical.
He had a lesbian girlfriend. He mentioned that on the Bring Back Roomies! site.
ooh, I hadn’t even thought of that first part! But yes, I was wondering about Becky’s biographical nature last strip.
Jeez, Sarah. I thought that was Mike’s job?
I was wondering if she had forgotten about that, and apparently she had. And now we have sad-face Joyce for another 24 hours. 🙁
Poor Joyce. But at the same time, DAMN, I love your cynical wit, Sarah. XD
♪IT HIT HER LIKE A WRECKING BALL!♪
God. Damn. It. I JUST got that song out of my head.
gosh i love sarah a lot. She really doesnt let Joyce lose sight of the bigger picture
Joyce has encountered a fatal system error and needs to shut down…
Time for Joyce to let him go, so that way Ethan is free for threesomes with Amber and Danny
…or even have her tag along with them for a kinda ‘free love’ exploration to open her horizons and maybe bring Becky along, too.
(hey, I was…*thinks and does some finger-counting* oh BLEEP, I was conceived in the Summer of Love! Whoa. ANYWAYS, deal with my differing weltschmerz)
Between Mike and Sarah, this series seems determined to cast our lovable naive heroes in the Sea of Tough Love.
“Wait, gay boyfriend?” – Becky, who is still in the room, and me be awake enough to hear that.
I never liked Joyce’s decision to date Ethan in the first place.
Seems to me less like she was trying to “cure” his homosexuality, and more like she was just conditioning him to be a good husband for her ideal family fantasy. A selfish, stupid, naive decision. But then again, “naive” is Joyce’s middle name.
I thought that too. Now I think he was just ‘safe.’
Well, it may have started out like that, but it was ALSO a chance for her to feel safe and not threatened by every shadow and unidentified figure when she’s outside; she needs him for protection (from the spectre of Ryan) as much as he needs her for the beard…
(and I know my avatar is Sarah looking critically, and I think it’s perfect for this rebuttal >:) )
Why is this table upside down?
On one hand, I like that Sarah is acting as a productive and useful advocatus diaboli (heh) to actually help Joyce deal with loopholes in her arguments and thought processes and help her form a more stable and reliable… I dunno – ‘set of ethics and morals’?
…but on the other, I worry whether Sarah REALIZES she’s filling this role, and might not be doing it consciously, and instead is just heckling Joyce? And if so, she might end up pushing Joyce into a very damaging place psychologically. :S
Sarah looks genuinely concerned in these panels, so I don’t think she’s doing this to be a heckler. Compare her face in this strip to yesterday’s, when she was frustrated. Them eyes, they are full of compassion.
Although it is possible that she is heckling her to force Joyce to begin actually choosing her beliefs based on the situations she encounters, and giving her to tools she needs NOT to be a hypocrite. When she was being dishonest, Sarah called her out on it, and when she was applying the rule to one person, but not another, Sarah called her out on it again. So it’s not so much Sarah choosing to push her to a place psychologically, but forcing Joyce to make the decisions that will define her as a person, such as if she is going to look at being gay as a sin or not, and weather it’s okay to reconsider her ideas based on researching information about her sources.
Man, Joyce’s story right now is getting me right in the feels. I went through almost EXACTLY this plotline in college.
It was only a matter of time before someone mentioned that gorilla in th eroom.
Joyce proudly displays her brand-new stained-glass window, and Sarah hurls a cinderblock right through the middle of it.
It’s that pre-law training. I know a few lawyers before they became such, and they almost instinctively found ways to punch holes in any half-formed logic. The actual training in law only made that punching more potent.
Its cinderbricks today, it will be cruise missiles when Sarah’s an attorney.
DON’T CRY JOYCE. Now you can have two gay best friends.
Thank you David Willis! I am gay and I am a Christian. And no, the two are not mutually exclusive.
Depends on who gets to define “Christian”. As one example, I once dated a woman who defined the word “Christian” to exclude anyone who believed that evolution has taken place, no matter what people may call themselves.
How quickly did you dump her?
Uh, Ethan’s Jewish and I kind of hope part of this storyline is Joyce saying “What you need is not me trying to make you something you ain’t just so I can feel safe, what you need is a nice nerdy Jewish boyfriend”.
Ethan decided on his own to “play it straight” for reasons that had nothing to do with Joyce–to him, she is merely a placeholder girlfriend, for those occasions when his life would be easier if he could refer to someone as his girlfriend. Joyce at least has impure thoughts about Ethan while showering, so the “relationship” is marginally less phony from her end.
Probably some point after she finally admits, to anyone, that he is in fact gay.
Shrug. I am probably some sort of philistine but I really can’t take Paul serious. I have to admit that he is the founder of the most successful world religion so far but I don’t understand why he had to drag Jesus into it. Christianity has appallingly little to do with Jesus. But then that’s the point of the “Historical Jesus” character in ShortPacked already, so I am kind of late to the game.
You can’t be a Philistine! Your name is David!
…that was amazing.
joyce my child i believe in you. you have learned so much so fast and are still learning and i am so proud
I feel this comment so hard.
Man. There is NO way I ever want to be that age again. I’ll be happy to have the body from that age, but sure as hell not the emotional stuff!
Unfortunately the body comes with the hormones and with the hormones comes the drama and emotional “stuff”.
make your choice now your boy friend or your best friend
Yes, there are a few lists of “sinful” people in the NT where some Greek words are popularly interpreted as referring to homosexuals. Though the word Paul made up is basically a compound of the Greek words for “man” and “bed”, likely derived from the Greek translation of “men who lie with men” from the OT.
Still, if we accept Joyce’s argument, it still looks like she forgot that Romans 1:26-27 features a clear description of men lusting for men where it’s labeled as shameful (it also features women committing “unnatural relations” without specifying what this is supposed to refer to, but people like to assume it’s lesbianism).
Your Gay Boyfriend is Jewish, so he could probably direct you towards older and more authentic documents than you’ve been finding with Google, Joyce.