It just started falling off my head. At the age of 13 I had brown hair all the way down to my shoulders. One haircut (and year) later ‘cos everyone was telling me it was too long and messy, and it never grew back; but instead my hairline began receding and getting thinner…and it never stopped.
**reads comment**
**makes a “rock” symbol with hand**
**looks at own fist, then at Jen Aside, then back at own fist**
You know, “rocking” is already a move in the lesbian playbook. It has a different name though. Just sayin’.
Way back in the day, I was taking a “Psychology of Deviant Sexuality” class (oh and boy was it eye-opening….), and one of the topics was urban sexual subcultures — and that brought up fisting.
At that point, this little blond girl — perfect cheerleader type but quite petite, with innocent sky-blue eyes, perfect blond curls, you get the picture — who had been sort of goofing off towards the back of the class popped awake and blurted out, “Oh, I have a video of that!”
So the class just…stopped… And we all stared at her…..
And she looked back at everybody, totally confused, and said “What? My MOTHER gave it to me!!”
Leslie: “Fine, you know what. Let’s talk about scissoring. Discuss.”
Joe: “While scissoring is not unheard of it is much less common in real life than in lesbian porn because it’s very visually appealing but not very effective to get a lady off, demonstrating the difference between the sex we see in movies and real happy sexy fun time”
Other students: …
Joe: “What? You don’t think I know sex?”
*follows link, read article, pokes net for videos* OK, that would be an interesting teaching method.
“You SHALL be taught!! Inna the name of GODda, Let us sharera the info…”
“Um, 1, this is weird. And 2, I don’t think the whole class putting their hands on my head because I got the lowest test score is gonna work…”
“Not if you don’t BELIEVEvah…”
Wait a second… God never married a single one of the people he… That father of a bongo! (Technically right any way you turn it, because God would be technically everyone’s father under the presumptions of this post)
Even without the Virgin births, he has yet to marry a single one of the women on earth who have children who are considered his! Why that is coming out here… probably has to do with the it that God did.
Or an “Instructor”, which in some larger colleges just means you’re and underpaid teacher that can be fired at anytime, don’t write research grants, and are generally the whipping post of the department.
Leslie doesn’t seem to be under any other professor or instructor though. It seems like this is really her class, whereas with Jason, we’ve seen him answering to a professor.
Okay first of all she’s just assuming Roz is straight. She doesn’t know that for sure and considering she’s the adult here she should know better than to make those kinds of assumptions. Roz’s reaction to this whole thing strikes me as the result of something more personal than we’re aware of yet and she should also know better than to tell her student to shut up how ever frustrated she might be because again she’s the grown up here and Roz is an emotional teenager. I get Leslie’s frustration I do. But she should apologize to Roz and maybe try to have an actual conversation with her in private about just why she’s so upset about all this besides what she’s already said.
More like an entitled brat who thinks she’s Gren Brady being outshined by her perfect little sister Marsha (Joyce, and previously, Robin) and Mom and Dad (Leslie) and all the other kids (Dorothy and everyone else) all are going ‘Marsha, Marsha, Marsha! We love Marsha!” and it’s just NOT FAIR…
Which has been my take on most of her screentime. I’ve had to walk it back a bit as someone (I’m sorry, I don’t remember the name) reminded me she has done more than just pass out condoms and make a sex tape, but her motivation really seems to be based on thinking she already knows more about sex than everyone else and everyone should follow her lead.
I don’t like Roz. She is really super judgmental and prejudiced; it’s just not about the more usual homophobia or slut-shaming. But both here and in Shortpacked!, she really doesn’t give a damn about how her actions impact anyone else; it doesn’t hurt her, which means it doesn’t hurt anyone. Probably not fair to bring in her attitude towards Jacob’s sex addiction in Shortpacked! (“that’s not a thing and if you apparently want to bang me I will bang you even if you specifically ask me to stop it”–which I’m pretty sure is rape) but we’ve seen more of her there. Here, she just assumes that she holds 100% of all knowledge about sexuality and gender; and that her position on anything related is 100% correct.
Frankly, her and Mary are a pair; they’re opposite sides of the same damned coin.
I wonder how she’d react if she ever ran into an asexual person?
I agree that Roz has an awful attitude in this class, and the strip you linked has always bothered me. I also wouldn’t be surprised if this is part of why Leslie came down on her so hard–students like that can really screw up the class dynamic.
*Also also*
To quote Willis below:
“You’ve claimed it twice on this page already, but you are mistaken. Roz has stated she is straight in the webcomic itself, in class in the presence of Leslie. It was a few years ago in real-time, so it’s forgiveable to have forgotten, but it’s important to squash the false assertion before discussion runs with it.”
Additionally one could say that though she leans straight she may be willing to participate in threesomes or other types of sex. Again all the while more likely to go for male partners if thing ever got serious outside of sex. Or in other words she may be down for experimenting .
From what I’ve picked up on how 4-Year Universities work, Leslie has been practically coddling Roz. She clearly feels mistreated for being squelched, that’s believable, but there’s plenty of professors who’d made her feel a lot worse to keep her from disrupting the class AND would’ve been well within their authority to do so. Leslie is neither her mother nor a close friend. So, yes, she shouldn’t apologize for shit.
They’re in a class basically revolving around the topic of sexuality, is it not plausible that Roz being straight was not established in an earlier class discussion? And as far as her reactions, yes, it is less than professional, but this was a bit of an extenuating circumstance. Does that give her a pass for telling a student to shut up? No. But we should also consider that this is a human being not a teacher-bot, and one with a lot of personal investment in the topic to boot.
Pedantically, but importantly, this is not a class that revolves around sexuality. This is a class that revolves around “Gender”, and there is a lot more to gender than sex or sexuality. Gender and assigned/perceived gender affect all aspects of society. Bedroom or fantasy behavior are only a tiny fraction of the life of a person.
Notice that Leslie only came out to the class two strips ago when she was talking about how her own experience of the social construction of gender affected life on the street.
I’m assuming the very first question they’d been asked in the gender studies class was what their sexual orientation is knowing Leslie. From what happened with Joe, that’s what they have to judge with, and unless she’s keeping it internal, Roz’ openly known orientation is most likely heterosexual. Just because it isn’t said in the comic doesn’t mean it hasn’t at all – Easter hasn’t happened in the comic either so I guess it doesn’t exist in this universe.
It would be grossly inappropriate for a teacher to EVER ask what their students’ sexual orientations were. I SUPER DOUBT Leslie would ask that kind of question, given that being in the closet can be a matter of personal safety.
Well … I’m sure she wouldn’t ask them to tell her. On the other hand, she might well ask them to consider the question privately, as well as the question of their gender. However, I think it’s more likely she would ask them as those subjects came up in class, rather than all at once at the beginning.
Considering she’s only just come out to the class, I doubt that would be true, since she’d be unlikely to ask the students their orientation without revealing her own.
Also asking people to out themselves on the first day of class (or any time, really) is pretty skeevy.
Actually its a pretty good assumption that Leslie knows Roz is straight.
First of all, she knew about Roz’s sex tape (so she knows she likes guys). Secondly, Leslie was in the class when Roz said she wasn’t into girls but would kiss them to get out of doing things with her sister. (Ok, technically she said she wasn’t gay, which could mean she’s bisexual, but the way the comic was worded it was clear she wasn’t into women at all.)
I’m assuming the very first question they’d been asked in the gender studies class was what their sexual orientation is knowing Leslie. From what happened with Joe, that’s what they have to judge with, and unless she’s keeping it internal, Roz’ openly known orientation is most likely heterosexual. Just because it isn’t said in the comic doesn’t mean it hasn’t at all – Easter hasn’t happened in the comic either so I guess it doesn’t exist in this universe.
Other than the factual parts though, I somewhat agree with your sentiment but I feel both are in the wrong in some ways. I picked up on the possible foreshadowing of something personal thing too tho.
I’m assuming the very first question they’d been asked in the gender studies class was what their sexual orientation is knowing Leslie.
I really hope not. If Leslie is a remotely responsible teacher, ESPECIALLY given her subject matter, she should know that orientation is a very personal matter and it would be individual students’ private decisions to share them with the class. Maybe it would be something along the lines of a catchall “If there’s anything else you want to tell me that would inform the direction of this course, tell me here” on a survey, but just asking it outright like “Name, email address, sexual orientation” would be highly inappropriate.
First of all, Leslie was right there when Roz said she wasn’t gay back during the sex-tape drama. So if Leslie is “assuming” anything, she’s assuming that Roz isn’t closeted.
Second, Leslie probably should have a conversation with Roz, but because Roz is consistently being a disruption in class and making a hostile environment with other students. Throw in the contempt Roz has shown towards the class (“I could probably teach it” ring a bell?) and yeah, Leslie needs to have a chat with Roz. Probably not the heart-to-heart you have in mind though.
I think the vitriol of her reaction probably has more to do with her sister.
We know from Shortpacked! that Robin isn’t straight, and we know from DoA that she is advocating political positions probably in line with the positions Joyce was raised in. In a conversation with Leslie, she referred to it as ‘pandering’, indicating that she feels the positions aren’t how Robin always thought. We don’t really have any information on their parents’ political views, aside from personal opposition to birth control (according to Roz in an arguably hyperbolic statement, so some grains of salt with that). It’s also possible that Roz knows her sister’s sexuality, given that she contemplates trying to set her up with Leslie.
Tl;dr, it’s very possible and unsurprising for Roz to be touchy about this issue because of her experiences with her sister without being anything but straight herself.
“Roz is straight” is not entirely a baseless assumption since it’s widely known throughout the school that Roz slept with Joe. Now true, Roz could be bisexual or pansexual, just sayin that Leslie has some basis for the straight assumption.
Actually, look when Robin was in the class, she specifically denied it. (She was threatening to kiss other girls in an attempt to get out of appearing with Robin.)
They are both supposed to be grown ups, this is college, not high school.
Roz may be less experienced at being an adult, but honestly, she is at an age where she should know better than to harrass other people and she has been repeatedly told to LEAVE the classroom by Leslie which would have allowed them to discuss it in private or deal with it outside the classroom.
Leslie’s job is to pass on the message of her lessons and help her students grow as people, not to spend half her lesson arguing with someone who does not know when to stop talking.
She’d told Roz to stop preaching counterproductive messages in her class.
Roz didn’t stop.
She told her the point of the class and that her behaviour was out of line.
AND ROZ DID THE EXACT THING SHE HERSELF WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT.
Leslie wasn’t screaming ‘shut up’ at her, she was telling her to stop harassing another student, to stop discussing their previous personal beliefs, to stop her behaviour, and the only way to actually stop her due to her stubbornness was to make a point to Roz that she was being a hypocrite for shouting over her.
And I think that she has said to Leslie that she doesn’t swing that way in a previous strip but I don’t remember for sure – and that is not nearly as important as the fact that Roz was still doing the wrong thing and needed called out on it or she would have just continued ranting about Joyce.
What other option did Leslie actually honestly have here? Listen to Roz ranting for the rest of the class about another student? Openly asking her what her real issue is in the middle of class? Forcibly dragging her out?
The first two of which would have been tolerating harassment/harassment itself by possibly embarrassing her and the last one is actually illegal (it can be classed as assault).
Her only CLEAR choices were to call out Roz on her hypocrisy to get her to stop, allow her to continue acting as if she was a justified crusader by condemning Joyce for her past beliefs, or leave her to it and get another staff member but what else could they do besides what she had already done?
Leslie did the best to diffuse the situation she could, but Roz is an overly stubborn opinionated person, she wasn’t going to leave or give in until she got all her opinion out there or until she was outright shut down.
They’re also expected to learn to Cope with Professors who Don’t act like Adults. Such BOHICA-ness Prepares Them for the Above-Minimum-Wage Paying Jobs 4-Year Colleges exist in the first place to Train you for, as it’s always Probable your Career is going to be Full of More of the Same.
Yup Leslie did the best thing here that she could’ve done. I don’t understand how people think Leslie is doing the wrong thing here by diffusing the situation instead of talking it out with Roz. Talking it out is something they would need to do later in private as it’s not going to be at all productive to the class. Plus it means by then Roz would have calmed down and be able to think/speak more rationally and see both sides without just being angry.
Plus, for those who are thinking that Roz could be bi or pan or whatever, I think it’s quite fair for Leslie to assume she’s straight. For one, the sex tape – and also when she threatened to kiss girls to ruin Robin’s campaign, the way she spoke then did not seem to indicate any sort of bisexuality at all really.
I for one, if I was at college and taking a class that I had paid to attend, would be really fucking irritated if Leslie had put the entire lesson for the day on hold to hold a heart-to-heart with the student who was actively disrupting the class and preventing the lesson from continuing.
As I said above, Roz is only concerned about how her actions impact herself; she doesn’t give a damn about anyone else’s concerns, or even consider them legitimate.
Agreed, although depending on how petty Roz is she could probably try to hit Leslie with a Title IX violation. I don’t think it would stick, but I’ve had friends who have discussed sex in class and gotten hit with the Title IX stick because a student didn’t like their grade and decided the sex talk meant they could get back at their professor.
“Okay first of all she’s just assuming Roz is straight” Uh, except in Roz case, it’s more than assuming. You might have forgotten Roze had no problem recording her sexual activities and putting them online for everyone at school (and anywhere else) to see. Roze has no shame over her sexuality and if she was into women too, it would have definitely been part of the show.
Concluding that Roze is straight is not jumping on conclusion, at this point.
Maybe because she’s barely in Dumbing of Age? I don’t see that changing as she was a principle character in Shortpacked for years, she’s kinda due a bit of a rest.
I do wonder what would have happened if the poll came out tonight instead. I dont’ think she’d take the top, but she’d probably clear the bottom 25%. I know I like her more now, but already voted, so…
Lord, let me let you in on a little secret. For all you fail to see on the surface, there’s a world of, well, that depends on the person. She probably has a lot of dinosaur stuff in there. Aspies minds are rarely quiet, even if their body may be holding still. And without social skills, that brain power goes to something often considered less interesting to the general populace. But I can assure you, Dina is running in the background.
Also, your world is LOUD. And hard at times. Sometimes we need to block it out, hence Dina’s being behind doors all the time in the beginning. But as time goes on, Dina will become more and more comfortable socializing with others and sharing more of her thoughts, often joining others in their strange activities, including beach trips and shopping.
Well, Roz publicly announced, in that same class, that she wasn’t gay back during the sex-tape drama. So even if Roz isn’t straight, it’s her own fault if Leslie has the wrong idea because Roz is the one that said it.
Or, to put it another way… sometimes people are wrong about their own sexuality. But you should still respect how they identify, even if you think they’re wrong.
Did she say she’s not gay, or that she didn’t feel an attraction to her own gender? Unless it’s the latter, Leslie should know better than to automatically assume it means Roz is straight.
Not pan, just horny. She’s only touched dudes as far as we know. She threatened to make out with girls, but she said she wasn’t gay, just doing it to cheese off her sister.
There’s never been any signs at all that pointed to her wanting to be with girls romantically or sexually, she’s only shown any interest in guys. She once even said she wasn’t into girls, although she would kiss one if it could get her out of dealing with Robin, saying that is in no way an indication of actual attraction to girls though.
There’s never been any signs in the five minutes overall of screentime she’s had in this comic. Roz not being a main character means we don’t really know here that intimately. We don’t know a lot of what’s going on inside her head or what she’s feeling. But she strikes me as someone who screams so loud because she’s routinely been shut down. Something about this really has me thinking she’s motivated by her own personal “stuff” not just trying for some kind of..idk…ally bonus points or whatever the fuck people think she’s going for here.
I’m not one of the people who thinks Roz is just going for ally points, I’m just sure she’s straight. She very very strongly implied it and she knows enough about sexualities that she likely wouldn’t be too confused about it, and she’s also open enough about these things that I don’t think she’d lie either.
I think just because Leslie is so far pretty much the only real adult in this comic I think I just expect more from her when it comes to these moments that require a bit more empathy.
The issue is timing. Leslie would be well-served pulling her aside at some point in the future, but right now, Roz needed to be stopped, end of discussion (literally).
Honestly? I’m not really sure how this situation could have been handled much better because Roz was being difficult and disruptive and I do understand just how Leslie could get pushed to the point that she did. But I still feel like this was not the best way to handle the situation and there had to have been a better way even if I’m at a loss for how right at this second. Though others made suggestions further down where Leslie just stopped engaging with Roz to shut down the conversation. In the aftermath though I think Leslie should apologize to Roz because however understandable her reaction may have been that was not an appropriate way to address a student. After that I think I’d just like for her to try and get Roz to meet with her during her office hours to discuss if maybe there’s more going on with Roz than just anger at Joyce.
It would be interesting to see Leslie do that, I could see it happening, as you and a couple of other people have said it wasn’t really the ideal reaction from a teaching perspective. And learning more about Roz’ motives would be nice, so far she’s had a bit of bad luck with the situations she’s ended up in as a characer, and I hope we’ll get to understand her more in the future.
Frankly, it’s not Leslie’s job to be a counselor, nor is it the job of any teacher — although we as a society expect that of them on top of all the other thankless tasks we pile onto them. Schools have trained counselors and counseling services for that. It’s her job to teach her class. She can recommend Roz see a counsellor, and she can flag her for an academic advisor, but she herself should not be acting as a counselor.
Like Plasma Mongoose pointed out, the fact that she didn’t counter Leslie’s assumption (although it might have been brought up in class off-screen) implies that she’s straight.
“Social Autism”? Is that like Aspergrs? I’m going to assume it is.
Also, this test was SOOOO made for adults, not students.
But I got privileged with a score of 50.
It’s partially to wake people up, but a lot of the assumptions lead to furthering the victim society. (ie… just because you fit into a certain demographic, you immediately have to be oppressed)
Seriously, I got a score of 20. Why? Because I’m overweight and middle class. This is the worst way to go about trying to show people how others have to overcome things. Any time you judge someone because they’re in group X (or Y, or Z, or whatever), you’re doing it wrong. Yeah… I know that there are many people who judge others by those groupings. It’s a collective fault of our society that it’s allowed. I don’t want to be that overweight white middle class guy to anyone. I want to be Robb.
Real site, but I refuse to take any site that lists that many forms of otherkin unironically in any serious manner and can’t assume it was ever meant as such. Though it did sign me up for the patriarchy. I was meaning to do that, so I’ll thank it there.
Real site in the sense that it exists. But on top of the things people mention with the test, you can see the updates mention adding Canada due to “croaking of froggies” and an apology for diarrhea caused by using the word retard. So not real in the sense of anything serious.
Well, I got “Your privilege level is Extremely Oppressed with a score of -585.” Either it’s a troll site, or it was put together by the dumbest Tumblr SJW on the planet. :/
Don’t you love it how they unintentionally marginalize you with a negative score?(OK… I’m being an ass toward that site, but seriously, it was some dumb stuff)
Not without someone smashing her over the head repeatedly, judging from how hard it was for Leslie to get her to sit down and shut up long enough to say her piece.
I don’t learn well or respond rationally on the occasions when I’m in the midst of losing my temper … so I’m not sure that judging Roz by her current behavior is any more reasonable than her ignorant condemnation of Joyce … I think it is much more important how Roz deals with having being confronted with her own shortcomings after she has had a chance to cool down …
Sometimes things need to be held in until they explode, because the explosion is what is required. TNT or dynamite wouldn’t be much use if all it did was burn instead of blow up.
She might have said she was bi, but as far as anyone who has seen that video she made with Joe is likely to think, they will assume straightness until otherwise.
I agree, this storyline runs the gamut of feelings and everyone has opinions on it (as evidenced by the 1000+ comments the other day) and it’s created some interesting discussions. That’s the signs of great media content 🙂
Roz, being an ally doesn’t mean you get a pass for being an ass especially when that is directed at someone else who just now realizes the damage they’ve done and genuinely regrets it.
As an aside (You’re 100% correct by the way), I hate the term ally. It implies that you have to agree with the general consensus of opinion on pretty much every issue, or you’re a “bad ally.” I’ve literally been called that. I responded that I don’t really consider myself an ally, but that I didn’t care what anyone else did with their bodies, and that I don’t want to put people in a box. If you’re a consenting adult (slight hypocrisy on my part, but I have to draw that line… whatever consenting adult actually means), you should be able to draw up a contract with another person or persons who are also consenting adults. The only thing the gub’mint should do is enforce that contract. Period, end of discussion. (I’m a voluntarist and have had plenty of arguments with gay men who are as totalitarian as the worst red neck bible thumper out there… just over different things. You either support freedom or you don’t IMHO. Strangely, the lesbians I’ve spoken to are a little more open minded as a rule. No idea if it’s just coincidence or a larger trend on the part of either the men or women.)
While I do agree with your “bad ally” rant, and that it’s not necessarly because one agree with you on one cause that one agrees with everything you say, you said “You either support freedom or you don’t IMHO. ”
Things are quite a bit more complicated than that. Basically, a society is made by people who trade part of their individual liberties for security. And the cursor between “liberty” and “security” is much, much more vague than just “FULL FREEDOM”.
What if the other consenting adult tricked you in signing a contract with ill-written clauses? What about those too poor they’re forced to sign any contract whatsoever? What about protecting public goods, like the atmosphere?
I know! Its even more impressive considering that these strips are written months in advance: Willis would have to anticipate the audience’s reaction. At the same time, the statement is also one the character would reasonably make, so its not technically breaking the fourth wall!
Absolutely. But I find it really bizarre that, before anyone else reacted, she jumped on Joyce, and is now attempting to defend herself by saying that Joyce was being given a pass on her previous ignorance.
Absolutely- she started going on about people praising Joyce before anyone else had a chance to speak either way! I can kind of see where Roz is coming from, like she’d imagined people praising Joyce and gone ballistic at the thought of it. Still, when your enemies finally start seeing things your way, an exasperated “Well, thank you!” might be better.
I was one of the most aggressive posters two days ago against Roz. And I didn’t really change my negative view of her until someone pointed out that she’s spent the last 4-5 weeks with Mary as a roommate.
And then let’s not forget she grew up with her nice congresswoman sister… I don’t know if her parents are as, erm, “enlightened” as Robin, but the part of Indiana she grew up in apparently is. I guess that ought to have paved the way for this sort of insensitive anger
Well, really I learned about intersectionality from a comic written by a straight cis white dude where a Latino Lesbian tells a white Lesbian she doesn’t have the same life experiences.
Gotham Central – Half a Life by Greg Rucka…
And I’m a bi trans woman… So, what I’m saying is… good job!
Yeah I’m sorry but I am not impressed with Leslie here. She doesn’t know for sure what Roz’s sexuality is so it’s not her place to label her and however frustrated she may be something about how she shut Roz down her just rubs me the wrong way. I’m not saying Leslie isn’t justified in her frustration I just don;t believe she handled this situation as well as she could have at all.
I believe that, in the comic where Roz’s sister visits Leslie’s class, Roz states that she would kiss girls on stage, but not because she likes them, in front of Leslie. Also, taking statistics into account, it was a reasonable assumption.
Still though. Roz saying things like that doesn’t mean she’s actually straight. We don’t now her history. We don’t know everything that’s motivating her rage in this moment and neither does Leslie. I get that Roz was being disruptive and I get that Leslie was frustrated but I still feel like Leslie handled this situation poorly. Instead of basically telling Roz to sit down and shut up however justified that may seem to others I think asking Roz to meet her alone to find out just where the hell all this anger is coming from (besides what we already know) might have been a better tactic. I just feel like there’s more going on here than what we’re seeing because human beings (and these characters) tend to be complicated but everyone’s too busy wanting to get away from Roz as soon as possible because her personality can be grating. Which come on she’s 18.
I agree. Leslie’s reaction is understandable, and would be a perfectly fine way to end a discussion between equals. But she is Roz teacher. She could have handled it better.
You should trust what someone says what they choose identify as, though. (To make it clear who you are attracted to isn’t a choice, but which terms you choose to use for yourself can be.) So treating Roz as straight because that is what she’s claimed in this group isn’t wrong.
I don’t think, though, that Leslie was out of line in the least bit. Roz being thrown out of the class is quite appropriate at this point. She was not rude to Roz either the way Roz was being rude to the entire class.
At least from my college experience, I’d wager Roz might be asked to come to Leslie’s office for a discussion after this.
You’ve claimed it twice on this page already, but you are mistaken. Roz has stated she is straight in the webcomic itself, in class in the presence of Leslie. It was a few years ago in real-time, so it’s forgiveable to have forgotten, but it’s important to squash the false assertion before discussion runs with it.
Actually, speaking as a “devout” Atheist/Secular-Humanist, there is a helluva-lotta evidence that suggest a massive flooding may have happened at roughly the window in time it was said to have happened according to most Middle Eastern/Asia Minor religions.
Was a guy names Moses, who was made an ageless demi-immortal prophet, involved? Did it actually rain for 40 days? Was literally the entire world flooded? Probably not.
Could a massive earthquake occurred at some point on the opposite side of the globe and created a tsunami that flooded the entire Mediterranean? Could a massive undersea volcano have erupted, unbeknownst to anyone? Could natural changes in weather patterns have resulted in a series of freak storms that resulted in torrential flooding? We just don’t know. Honestly, any of those three are actually reasonable and realistic possibilities.
What we do know is that numerous religions from that region speak of massive flooding happening in similar windows of time.
When choosing to be a sophomoric ass who feels the need to “disprove” religion, it helps to know a little bit about history and anthropology for a couple of reasons. One, it helps you make a valid argument. Two, it makes it you sound a little bit less dickish.
I am just going to add here that while you or I may not believe in the letter of the Bible or any other book of faith, they still serve a purpose as historical works. They reference many events that we know for a fact happened, and document how these events were perceived by people living in those times. Some events are purely parable in nature, but others are parables dramatized from actual events. When you have numerous works of such a nature stating that a similar sounding event occurred at a similar point of time, it is quite possible that something similar to those events may have occurred relatively near that point in time.
Um… It was Noah, not Moses. Also, there was a poster on this very site who linked to or mentioned archaeological evidence for the “Biblical Flood”. (And I don’t mean those mountain top ocean fossils, I mean actual villages of a seaside nature several miles above the current shoreline, at several levels) (Also, I’m agnostic leaning atheist, and dislike religion)
I try to pick my words carefully. When I say “worldwide flood”, I do mean worldwide. Geological evidence disproving a worldwide flood has been known for centuries. Yet not everyone has gotten the message yet.
You may be right about me being a dick, but I stand behind my argument. As for disproving religion, I don’t really feel the need. It’s myths being passed off as scientific facts that I dislike.
Something I forgot to add: I have personally seen a theology professor (and Episcopal priest) try to persuade a few reluctant students in a class that geology does not support there ever being a worldwide flood.
The best suggestion I’ve ever heard for where the Flood legends came from is the “Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis” – a massive overflow from the Mediterranean that suddenly expanded the Black Sea 7,000 years ago. If this actually happened, it’s something early Eurasian civilizations would’ve remembered. So, “worldwide” only in its cultural influence!
Not gay does not mean straight. Hell, not attracted to the same sex doesn’t even mean straight. I mean I 100% accept Word of God that she is straight but there’s nothing within the comic itself that says that unambiguously.
Not gay doesn’t mean straight, but in the context of the conversation, Roz denied being gay as a way to say she wasn’t interested in girls. There are characters and situations where that exchange might have been an exact-words-y way to not admit to being bi, but I can’t believe that Roz would bother. She would have just said, “Not gay, bi; you do know that’s a thing, right?”
Why is the lesson that ‘folks are just folks’ the hardest damn thing to learn? Seems like it would simplify judging people. Guess it would also make it more work.
Tribalism is rather deeply ingrained into human instinct. If people can’t find an “us versus them” issue, they’ll invent one. It’s messed up and takes conscious effort to suppress.
Makes it easier to justify taking resources that others need, and thus gain the upper hand in survival. The tribe that takes is the tribe that thrives.
We, as a species, like to have neat little groupings. I swear it’s in our genes. You see someone, and the first inclination is to categorize them.
Black guy in saggy jeans with a gold tooth? Thug
Hispanic guy with a ton of tats? Cholo
Effeminate man? F*g.
Tomboy? Lesbian
You get the point. Of course, if you do this, sometimes you’ll be right. But it’s an injustice to, at the very least, keep a closed mind. It might be a good idea to avoid a Thug/Cholo because they might actually BE a thug or cholo, and you might get beaten and robbed. That’s a distinct possibility. But then, you might also have a pretty cool conversation with one or the other. I’ve done that on several occasions. But there have also been times where I got the hell out of an area because a thug/cholo or three have been around. I’ve also made friends with effeminate men and butch women, and some have been gay, others not. Big deal… I’ve made friends with some truly awesome people from all sorts, and it’s taken me up until now to get to where I am. I’m not at my goal yet, but I’m making progress. My goal? Don’t judge based on insignificant crap like sexual preference or skin tone. The black guy walking past me in normal clothes elicits no more apprehension than the white guy behind him. Put either of them in certain clothes, and I take more note of them and am more cautious. But the skin isn’t the reason for me anymore. Or at least, I’d like to think that it isn’t. It’s hard to fight social conditioning.
I’d love to see a world where we were just people. Not black people and white people and brown/yellow/whatever people. But we aren’t there. Not yet. Probably never in my life.
This really demonstrates to me that Roz is way more immature than she assumes she is. That face in panel four screams of “I have learned nothing from this experience and how dare you suggest I might be misguided or wrong.”
FINALLY! Roz doesn’t get a pass on being a bongo just because she does it to someone that holds incorrect beliefs. Plus, no one told her to treat Joyce like a hero in the first place. She’s just being an arrogant spiteful prick for pretty much no reason.
OH MA GAD NO! LOL! Now I’m really hoping that cencoring program Willis uses is completely temporary so he can run April Fools cencors. ON WITH THE WORD REPLACEMENT!!!! 😀
Roz got the smackdown she needed, but I disagree wholeheartedly with ‘no reason’. It assumes this last arc happens in some sort of vacuum where the characters have no history with each other–which is not the case. Roz’s anger is coming from a real place, not just for some sort of mythical desire for ‘ally points’ or whatever.
Joyce has been nothing but dismissive and insulting to Roz from their first conversation, even on the one occasion that Roz tried to do the right thing.
A few people are claiming Leslie’s silencing Roz by assuming she’s straight, but riddle me this: if Roz weren’t straight, wouldn’t she be more than capable of telling Leslie so? Instead, by leaving, she concedes Leslie’s point, however grudgingly.
Roz has been very vocal in class discussions, the class discussions have covered matters of orientation. Roz is particularly vocal about her views on sex, her sex life, and so forth. Odds are Leslie knows exactly what orientation Roz is, even if we the readers haven’t seen Roz say the words “I’m straight” on panel.
A teacher has a prerogative to silence somebody disrupting class in such an obvious manner as personally attacking other students. Leslie is a good teacher.
Joyce was disrupting the class and attacking an entire, major religious sect- which includes students in the school and, very possibly, in the class. (I don’t just mean “Christian”, I also mean “anti-gay Christian”- but either could have taken offense at Joyce’s outburst)
Leslie was blatantly playing favorites here. She wants to hear Joyce’s outburst because it’s personally validating. She doesn’t want to hear Roz’s outburst. She shuts one down, not the other. That was Joyce’s version of an expletive-filled rant, and everyone knows it.
She should have gotten Joyce to cool down, possibly suggest EVERYONE take a few minutes break as this has clearly brought up a lot of tough emotions- including for Leslie.
Joyce was reacting to emotionally-impacting new information. She was reacting to and responding to the material presented. She made no personal attacks on any person, and even included in her statement that it was because she’s cheesed off in the moment and may well find a more measured position after the first flush.
Roz attacked Joyce personally, claiming that she (Roz) had been ordered/directed to do something she refused to do (treat Joyce like a hero). She literally bullied Joyce until she ran from the classroom in probable tears, upset severely enough that not one but two other classmates felt the need to chase after her to make sure she’s okay, all the while completely disregarding the professor’s clear instructions that the class is to focus on the material rather than each other and then completely disregarding the professor’s clear orders to STOP and LEAVE THE ROOM.
The only one actually disrupting the class was the frothing maniac (hyperbole, but still) who caused three people to leave the room in varying levels of fear and anguish.
Anonymously makes a very good point, Z (and Mr. Fat), but there’s an even simpler, cleaner one: Roz never gave Leslie the chance to tell Joyce off herself. If Leslie had that chance, she might have let Joyce down more gently, simply because she’s kinder by nature, but she never got that chance. Roz also disrupted the class, but in a much more potent, personal and immediate manner than Joyce, and since letting her down gently wasn’t working, Leslie had to resort to less-than-noble tactics to regain control of her class.
What I want to know is why Roz’s sexuality actually matters for this conversation. It might make what Roz is saying less hypocritical, but even if she were gay/bi/whatever it still doesn’t excuse how she interrupted class to shame Joyce for learning something.
To be fair, Leslie covered that angle first. Roz would have to severely skew this conversation to take home the message that this would’ve been fine if she weren’t straight.
She was basically just saying that she is aware of what’s going on and the issues at hand. And that Roz is saying to listen to gay voices, but she’s ignoring the voice of the lesbian in the room who is saying that this is an okay discussion to have.
Also, re: what Roz said about Joyce earlier. To be fair, Joyce was never one of those people tossing gay loved ones out on the street. The very first time she was actually confronted with a gay friend in need, she frickin’ RAN AFTER Becky to let her know she was still loved and welcome to a place to stay, changing her OWN worldview pretty much immediately instead of trying to get Becky to change how she was.
She’s said some gross, messed-up stuff before but when push comes to shove, Joyce has very quickly stepped up to do (and risk) way more to actively help an LGBT kid in this comic so far than we’ve seen Roz do for anyone. Which isn’t to excuse stuff she’s said in the past – but in case people are wondering why we aren’t exactly all cheering for Roz here, well, here you go.
(And lest anyone bring up Ethan: let’s not forget that he’s the one who asked her out first, for the very calculated reason of using her to placate his parents. Still pretty Problematic for Joyce to knowingly date him, but he’s not exactly being victimized, here.)
I think, at least on this topic, Joyce is kind of an anti-villain. She’s obviously more malevolent when it comes to pre-marital sex, but when it comes to homosexuality she doesn’t wish anyone ill will.
I don’t think she’s malevolent even then. I think she honestly wishes people the best at every point, but Joyce sometimes has her values flipped, causing her to think something is best when it’s actually worst.
you don’t need to be malevolent to spread misery around you tho, let’s never forget that. Joyce’s very publicized beliefs are hurtful, even when held by a good-hearted person such as her.
But her response to fix him came after him saying he didn’t want to be Gay. Joyce may not have known enough not to do what she did in an attempt to help, but her actions were still an attempt to help him achieve what HE wanted.
I feel like a lot of people forget this: Joyce didn’t find out that Ethan was gay and say “LET ME CLEANSE YOU.” He TOLD her he didn’t want to be gay. It was HIS decision, not hers. Should she have agreed? Probably not, since it only serves to further this idea that he needs to change. But she was trying to help him achieve what he told her he wanted. What Ethan needs is for someone to treat him like his sexuality isn’t the most important thing about him. Unfortunately, no one’s really done that, so he’s still trapped in this idea that he can’t be both gay and be the person he was before he came out. But, none of this is Joyce’s fault. Becky is the first person to come out to Joyce and ask her to accept that. We should judge Joyce on the way she’s handled Becky, not Ethan. Also of note is that Joyce is pretty obviously confused about how she’s supposed to handle Ethan now that she has attempted to reconcile her faith with accepting homosexuality, since Sarah bringing him up obviously distressed her. She wants to help him the way he wants to be helped… but I’m willing to bet she’s not as okay with trying to make him straight now.
Also remember that it wasn’t just to “fix” him, though she no doubt hoped that would be a potential outcome. First of all she’s had the idea that the most important thing she can get out of college is to find a husband to provide for her so they can raise good christian babies together ingrained from just about every man and woman in her community. Then her first date turns out to be a lecherous jerk (who she proceeded to assault for no legitimate reason) and the next time she finds a guy, he drugs her and tries to rape her.
On her third attempt, she finds a guy who she knows has no sexual attraction to her, which becomes a sort of relief because she feels safe that he won’t just try to get in her pants. Then comes the bad part because she considers homosexual hanky panky to be just as bad or worse than heterosexual hanky panky. So she thinks if he’s her boyfriend, she doesn’t have to be scared she’ll be coerced into hanky panky and if she’s his girlfriend, he’s good and honest and won’t cheat on her tp have homosexual hanky panky.
And she probably thinks (or used to) that if they keep it going long enough, he’d turn straight.
Even odds joyce left class to talk to Ethan about her realization of what’s wrong with their mutual enabling of each other’s oppressed and oppressive homophobia (does homophobia apply here?).
I figure it’s a 47.5 percent chance she’s going to look for Becky, 47.5 percent chance she’s going to look for Ethan, and about a 5% chance she’s just going off somewhere to cry alone because Roz’s little outburst has her believing that she’s a horrible monster for something she never even personally did.
Yeah, and her dating Ethan has always been more about feeling safe. She feels safe around him because she knows he will never take advantage of her like the guy at the party. “Fixing” his gayness is only a small part of it.
Thank you. I’ve been waiting for someone to acknowledge that.
I think the whole “fixing” thing is a justification for why she should date Ethan, even if Ethan isn’t interested in her physically. Also, I’ve noticed she gets a lot of flack for dating him, but Ethan seems to get surprisingly little of late. It’s not like, for example, Melissa in early El Goonish Shive where she’s pointedly ignoring Justin orientation and trying to foist herself on him. They both aren’t really ready to deal with sex, and dating each other lets them not have to worry about it.
Yes, Roz, she gets a pass — for now. Coming to terms with it on her own is hard enough without getting a verbal gut-punch that is in its own way just as self-righteous.
Oh, to be younger than 20 again. Yes, I’m sure Roz would like to condemn Joyce for life for the beliefs Joyce has been forced to maintain with no access to any alternatives (home-schooled, with apparently hyper-vigilant parents, lest we forget.)
Roz is not necessarily wrong in what she believes (not that we’ve gotten a complete view of that yet, so I’m not judging. But she’s a hell of a lot less wrong than Joyce, let’s say that) but yes in terms of living in the real world and dealing with real people, she’s got a bit of growing up to do.
Yeah, exactly, these people are all teenagers, which I think is easy to forget sometimes. Nobody can know and be aware of absolutely everything – ever – but especially not at 18 lol.
Y’know…on further reflection…Roz doesn’t even want to condemn Joyce for life. She’s all pissed off, and now that Joyce is starting to grow and understand why her previous passivity was wrong, she wants to PUNISH Joyce for it.
She wants to punish Joyce for making no effort to evaluate her views until she was essentially forced to by circumstance and for trying to pretend that she wasn’t culpable for the practices of the religious institution she has up until this point supported wholeheartedly and loudly.
What’s really bad is that, Joyce is trying to grow. She is just now coming to terms with everything. And instead of saying “It’s good that you’re growing and understanding” Roz is attacking her. Joyce obviously already feels awful about what the church has done, there’s no need to make her feel guilty about it. Does she get a gold star for being decent? No. But, Roz, neither do you, nor does anyone else. And you certainly don’t get a gold star for attacking a person when they’re clearly vulnerable. In terms of shitty behavior, currently, Joyce is a saint compared to Roz. For all her beliefs against homosexuality and pre-marital hanky-panky, at least she was never cruel to anyone for those choices. Tactless, sure, in the instance of the ‘flower’ conversation, but she was never cruel.
“SJW” covers a wide variety of peple, ranging from well-meaning individuals who campaign for social justice… to insane extremists who ruin it for everybody.
Remember: Every group has its lunatic fringe. The trick is not letting that fringe identify you all. Also, if you claim that “My group doesn’t have a fringe, only the other side,” then it’s probably you.
I’ve typically seen people with good intentions and legitimate actions referred to as social justice activists, or simply people into Social Justice. A very important distinction.
I make no argument that every single group of people large enough to be considered a group will have it’s collection of assholes, loony’s, and loony assholes.
Yeah, this. It talks below how some are trying to reclaim it, but I find that dubious. I’m finding it hard to believe that anybody using “warrior” like that won’t end up being a good candidate to reclaim it so much as perpetuate the stereotype. The last one I saw doing so accused my screenname of being ablest as a conversation opener. Needless to say they did not convince me otherwise.
It doesn’t help that anybody calling themselves a warrior on the internet makes me recall this first:
Social justice warrior was originally a pejorative term, though. People who pursue social justice didn’t call themselves that; other people did, as a an insult. Anyone who self identifies as an SJW is using it at least somewhat ironically.
Bluntly, as to be expected, plenty of people who hate ANY form of critique regarding sexism, race relations, or so on calling people with legitimate concerns, “Social Justice Warriors” and insulting them. As a result, the term has lost a lot of its burn value.
Ridureyu, this term may have covered a wide variety of people once, but these days “SJW” is almost exclusively associated with the extremists. It has become – as one of my teachers called it – a “burned term”.
A lot of people are reclaiming it now, though. Decent people who hate how it’s become this extremist term. I actually still like the term for it’s original meaning. I feel like it’s become distorted in the same way people *think* feminist has been distorted. (feminism hasn’t really been distorted, the *peception* of it has been distorted by like a handful of bad apples, which I think is exactly what happened to social justice warrior). But I see it like this, if you’re not for social justice, then you’re… a jerkwad, because who would be against social justice? Just like how if you’re not for feminism, you’re a jerkward as well.
Idk. Did that make sense? I’ve drunk an energy drink like 8 hours ago and it still hasn’t worn off, so I’m a bit all over the place tonight xD
Frankly, I’ve never liked the term “Social Justice Warrior”. It always had this unnecessarily aggressive conotation to me, so I’m not sure if “reclaiming” it is really the way to go. You can be for equality and social justice without labeling yourself anything. Insteaf of saying “I’m a Social Justice Warrior”, why not simply say: “I’m a decent human being”? Let’s just drop the labels and ignore all the extremists that are poisoning the well at the moment.
The connotation “warrior” always had to me, in this sense, was that these people were actively picking fights… not just fighting for what they believe in. The sort of people that just go out of their way to find something to object to, as if they’ve got something to prove.
Both those who are claiming it and those using it in a negative way have taken it too broadly since, however. It’s one of the phrases that’s lost its meaning the fastest, in my opinion.
I don’t think it’s a burned term at all anymore. Frankly, so many asshats use it like it’s supposed to be a bad thing against people whose views I admire that I can’t help but think it has a kind of prestige now.
So many people use the term Social Justice Warrior for ANY Social Justice Activism, though, it’s lost a lot of its meaning for checking white liberal privilege. For example, I proudly call myself a Social Justice Assassin because I bother to do Social Justice work at all.
I feel the same way about SJW that I do about Feminist. Both terms started out as positive things with a good message, but have been irredeemably associated with the extremist position in popular culture. That’s why I call myself an egalitarian instead of a feminist; it’s essentially the same message, but without the bad reputation. A better term for SJW might be civil rights activist.
I half-expect her to chase after Joyce to continue haranguing her, only to come upon Joyce reasserting to Becky that she wants to help and is going to help and those statistics were terrifying.
If that were to happen, I have no idea what Roz’s reaction would be. I’d like to think Good Roz who happens to carry around support materials and knows local resources due to her volunteering would make an appearance. Today and the last few days make me think we’d actually get a crowing ‘I knew you only pretended to change your mind because it’s relevant to someone you care about! Evil confirmed!’
Sadly, I get the feeling that Roz would see that Joyce’s change of heart was only because she had a friend who was gay, and then she’d belittle her for changing her mind for personal reasons instead of ‘actually’ being a decent human being.
Amazingly Leslie manage to raise a point that hasn’t been discussed twenty times the last two days.
I dunno… Leslie’s teaching style is a bit too informal for my taste. She is gay, yes, but in this situation she is also an adult and Roz’ teacher. There is a very real privilege difference between them which has to do with who gets to grade who. Discussing Roz sexuality is not unproblematic in that perspective, and arguing with a student in front of the class is rarely a good thing. The damage Roz did is already done. I would have preferred a more assertive than shaming way to end the discussion.
I don’t think Leslie was trying to shame her. For one thing, Roz doesn’t really do shame. (Anger at people attempting to shame her, yes, but not shame.) But more importantly, I don’t think her remark was meant to be personal. She was simply attempting to make Roz think critically about what she was saying after several minutes of attempting a softer approach. And considering Roz’s entire argument was based around Joyce’s unwillingness to think about what she was doing, she had to acknowledge that or forfeit whatever valid points she’d been making.
I’d say Roz was totally shaming Joyce for her affiliation with the church. Taking those homeless/at-risk queer youth stats and unambiguously saying “that was you” is shaming if I ever heard it.
Roz: “Joyce has been ignoring and shouting over gay people for the past eighteen years!”
Leslie: “You’ve been ignoring and shouting over me, a gay person, for the past five minutes. That was you.”
And THEN Roz gets the hint. Sometimes it’s like shame is the only language Roz even speaks. It is undeniably effective, though in the same way stabbing a cancer patient to death with a shovel will stop them from dying of the cancer if you just can’t figure out how scalpels work.
I dunno, Roz’s face in panel four and her stance as she storms out tells me she DIDN’T get the hint. That’s the face of “how DARE you suggest I’m being hypocritical while I speak for you!”
“And considering Roz’s entire argument was based around Joyce’s unwillingness to think about what she was doing, she had to acknowledge that or forfeit whatever valid points she’d been making.”
And if her expression in panel four is any indication, Roz didn’t learn the lesson.
An issue with that is Leslie being a lesbian has nothing to do with Roz talking over her. If she were strait the entire interaction from Roz would have been exactly the same. So it was a non sequitur point that can be dismissed.
Thing is, though, the lesson for the day was LGBT people being kicked out of their homes, something Leslie openly admitted happened to her. Roz took it upon herself to speak on behalf of homosexuals and yell at Joyce for changing her stance. In spite of the fact that Leslie, a homosexual who has actually experienced the thing Roz is railing against, didn’t have a problem with Joyce’s change of heart and was actively telling Roz not to attack her for it. Leslie being a lesbian is actually the entire point.
Or stand up, turn my back and write something on the blackboard for 10 seconds, or just be silent for a little while and let Roz realize that the discussion has ended. There are thousands of way to handle a situation like that.
I’m not saying that Leslie’s way of dealing with it was horrible (nothing in line with Roz’ outburst), but I think she could have dealt with it better.
Well yeah, everything could be done better. If superheroes can get away with wearing their capes wrong for years, I think a teacher can get away with an imperfect method for how she handles an outside-of-the-norm situation.
Ending it like that risks allowing ROz to continue thinking that what she did was acceptable. The ‘correct’ action would probably be amping up her authority as a teacher ‘this is a learning environment we are supposed to be able to learn in peace and I am your professor, I get the final say, and when I say the discussion is over it is over. ALl the same, Roz has shown no respect to Leslie as a teacher, so would it have worked? It may not.
And in such a situation, the worst thing that you could do is let Roz believe her actions were acceptable or allowed.
Ok but if Roz reported Leslie for bullying all Les would have to do is explain that Roz had been disrupting the class with personal attacks on another student despite being asked to stop, and when asking her to stop didn’t work she was asked to leave, which request took a couple repetitions and a continued argument to be effective. This is easily verified by witnesses, I.e. the rest of the students.
I don’t think Leslie’s response was a great idea from a teacher’s perspective, and from her body language in the last panel, she probably regrets have to stoop to that level. I think the reason she did it is because she made numerous attempts to assert her authority both during Roz’s rant and in panel one of this strip, but Roz continued to be disrespectful of said authority. So Leslie felt the only way to make Roz finally shut up was to be devastatingly blunt. Was it the right move? No. But unlike Roz, I think Leslie knows when she took things too far.
Roz has been asserting herself over the teacher for longer than today – remember her earlier appearances in class? “I don’t need this class, because I know everything about it!”
Oh, believe me, I didn’t forget that. That’s been on my mind since Roz first started her judge rant against Joyce. There was also Roz demanding to know what she had to learn besides ‘treat everyone equal’, and when Leslie answered her question, she indignantly asked what that had to do with gender studies. What we witnessed here was the last of Leslie’s patience giving way.
I would actually not be shocked if Roz dropped out of gender studies because of this incident. It feels like the sort of thing she’d do in order to make herself feel justified. I hope I’m wrong about that; I don’t hate Roz, I just want her to grow up.
Wouldn’t surprise me if gender studies is Roz’s major, but her bit on the cast page doesn’t say and I don’t have the DoA books in front of me to check if she has a bio in one of them.
I don’t think there was really another option here that would have stopped her unfortunately.
Roz is that kind of difficult person who doesn’t shut up when you try to display authority or when you stand down and will only stop if you completely shut them down.
We know plenty about Leslie’s teaching style. We know that she is laid back and informal, we know that she wants to create discussion rather than have the students listen to hear speak, we know that she likes to use real examples (Robin as a woman in male dominated career field, Roz and Joe’s sex tape, and her own homosexuality), we know that she gives the student a lot of freedom (Joe is not berated for being constantly late, Mike was allowed to sit in the class, Roz was allowed a lot of free reigns up until now). Just look how she sits on her desk rather than behind it to create an informal atmosphere.
Compare with the math teacher who with have seen much, much less of, but we still have a pretty good idea of his teaching style. (No questions except office hours, notes getting collected and graded, heavy reliance on TA’s).
So, yeah, we know pretty well how they teach.
Leslie has worked hard to create a discussion and to get her students emotionally invested. That worked maybe too well – that’s open for discussion. If she had had a more traditional teaching style with one-way communication and more text book examples maybe four students hadn’t fled the room. On the other hand maybe Walky would just doodle dinosaurs instead of running to the rescue of run-away lesbians.
She’s pretty much what both my Gender studies teachers were like. One of them had us all write as many dirty words as we could on the white board, and then we discussed each one in depth. Both of them talked about their sex lives. This is just what it’s like. *shrugs*
Willis,
Don’t be so hard on yourself ( pun intended )
Sooner or laters , Joel will give into your extensive charms.
“Basically its inevitable”
—Jennifer Billingsworth
Speaking of Bromances on simmer; meanwhile, I wonder whats up with Danny x Ethan ?
Yes and no. Since Roz’s entire justification for disrupting class is based on the conduct being described, she cannot simultaneously justify her actions and condemn Joyce’s. With tu quoque, it’s more a case of, “You’re condemning theft, even though I know you routinely download illegal song copies.” While you can accuse me of hypocrisy, I’m not basing my argument against theft in a way that requires me to download those songs.
I remember the last time Roz and Leslie interacted, Roz was all, “What the hell else is there to learn but treat everyone equally?” It’s a pretty nice statement but then Leslie follows it up by telling her that there’s always more to learn and thinking otherwise is foolish (dangerous, even!). And now we finally get the payoff, two years later.
Especially when you remember that Roz’s response to that was a beligerent “what does this have to do with gender studies”. Roz has behaved disrespectfully numerous times in this class and Leslie has likely had enough.
I’m in the minority here, but this one doesn’t make me happy. Don’t get me wrong, it’s always nice to see jerks struck dumb, and Roz is definitely being a jerk HERE, no matter what’s in her past or future.
But I don’t Leslie feels like calling this a win. From her point of view, she tried to keep order in her classroom in a dignified manner and tried and tried and it just wouldn’t take until she finally had to resort to name-calling, and four people just actively fled her classroom. I don’t think she did anything wrong– I’m not even sure this could’ve been avoided– but I think that’s got to sting.
COFFEE SIPPER! (In actuality, I don’t particularly care how you take in your hot beverages as much as I do the fact you could drink something that smells like coffee.
You’re right, I get the sense that was a last resort for Leslie. Had Roz left well enough alone after panel one, Leslie would have marched on with her lesson and dealt with Roz privately once class was finished. Instead, Roz continued to be disrespectful and beligerent and Leslie had to be blunt in order to get the girl to shut up. And instead of apologizing or backing down, Roz stormed out. Yeah, Leslie doesn’t think she’s won anything.
Leslie DID NOT name call Roz. When did she do that exactly? She simply pointed out that Roz was guilty of the very thing she claims to be angry about (refusing to consider the perspective of someone else). It’s clear that Leslie didn’t enjoy how class went down, but that’s Roz’ (and real life’s) fault, not her own.
Yup, from a teaching point of view it was a fail. And the chemistry she worked so hard to build in the beginning of class is gone now. She can just as well spend the rest of the time talking scissoring with Joe as trying to talk about LGBT discrimination to what remains of the class.
Her whole teaching style is about building trust and building a good discussion climate, but that requires moderation. I think she might have done more to build in rules of conduct in the group dynamic. Thinks like this may have given the students the wrong impression about what is accaptable and not. (I’m also not a fan of shaming a student like this.
Don’t get me wrong. Leslie is easily the best teacher we have seen in the comic – and she is a genuinely good teacher. This was a tricky situation and she didn’t handle it terribly – but there is always thinks that could have been dealt with better.
When Roz claimed she already knew all the material Leslie stopped and gave a very patient mini-lecture about how life is a glorious tapestry and there’s always so much more to learn. Roz was stubborn throughout but Leslie kept addressing Roz’s points.
Allowing Roz to try and hook her up with Robin might’ve also given Roz the impression that she was untouchable.
Their relationship has gotten pretty casual even in comparison to the rest of the class. Roz will for example tell Leslie what to wear.
To say nothing of the fact that asking Roz to book a speaker for their class that they both know has no expertise on the subject just so she can be around a cute girl for a bit probably sent some bad signals about how much she values a professional learning environment in the class. If the professor doesn’t care about that then why should Roz?
Leslie’s probably wishing she’d nipped this in the bud earlier. Hindsight, 20-20 and all that.
She tried to build trust by being the laid-back, hip professor. But it’s hard to be the laid-back, hip, AND authoritative professor. And getting angry, while justified, probably doesn’t help.
Yeah. It strikes me as an inelegant way to make the right point. In better circumstances, she could explain her point of view in a more compassionate way, but a bunch of students in her classroom started shouting and storming off. Composure’s getting taxed. She threw Roz’s words right back in her face.
That’s a good way to spite an enemy but a lousy way to run a classroom. I look forward to seeing how she follows up on this.
Is no one bringing up that it was Roz’s Demand that Dorothy bring a friend to a party that lead to someone attempted to rape Joyce? And that Joyce’s religion was why she was targeted?
But that’s not something you can fault anyone involved. It’s not Roz’s fault that she had Dorothy bring someone*, it’s not Dorothy’s fault that she brought Joyce, and it’s certainly not Joyce’s fault that she was targeted.
But how I see Roz being horribly wrong here, is that Roz was at that party. She (probably) knew what happened to Joyce there. And in-universe time, this isn’t so far separated that she could possibly expect Joyce to have just built a bridge and got over it by now.
Hold on now, I think Roz was in the wrong in this current incident, but Roz knows absolutely nothing about what actually went down at the party. From what she’s said and indicated, all she knows about is that there was a fight. She has said as much.
She looked surprised at the subsequent outburst in the next strip, indicating she did not in fact know what went down beyond there being a fight. Whatever else her flaws, she did at least recommend a place to go for Joyce when she got the impression something might have happened. Considering Joyce has asked all the people who know otherwise to NOT talk about it, I doubt anybody’s filled her in on the whole story since.
So Roz got a vague idea that something could have possibly happened, but doesn’t know what. I doubt Roz thinks of it much as she doesn’t interact with Joyce outside of this class and Joyce has made it clear she’s not interested in help from Roz (which is totally understandable).
Meanwhile this is a discussion on homeless LGBT, and Roz, if she’s thought of the party incident at all before her outburst (very unlikely as Roz seems a tad impulsive), would not think that Joyce’s problem had to do with homeless LGBT.
Also, book intelligent/high school grades good doesn’t mean she’ll be well adjusted or smart at college. It really isn’t that surprising that she or Walky made it there.
She’s 18. Everyone is a bit of an idiot at 18. She applied, and was accepted. That means that her SAT and ACT scores were acceptable, and that her high school GPA was as well. As for how she is still IN college, term isn’t up, so the school hasn’t had time to send her an academic warning or academic probation yet, if her GPA isn’t up to snuff.
You don’t get into college by being nice. You can be the jerkiest jerk around and still graduate college with honors.
What rubs me the wrong way is that Leslie and her curriculum did jack shit to change Joyce. There was no Learning. It took personal and emotional events coupled with roadblocks to her personal agenda (Get help for Becky ) to provoke anything. Roz was right to ask Joyce what happened to evoke that change, because it certainly did not come from an intellectual source.
The only thing I can say in Roz’ defense is that she hasn’t spent any time with Joyce and probably hasn’t wanted to, so she wouldn’t know about Becky or how Joyce chose her friendship over her indoctrination. With Mary as a roommate and being raised by conservative parents and having to deal with her sister’s bigoted colleagues, she probably made up her mind about who Joyce is as a person after their first encounter.
That being said, I still think her reaction to Joyce’s outburst was utterly revolting. She wasn’t trying to teach her anything or learn what prompted her sudden change, she was attacking her verbally to make her feel responsible for things she naively was unaware of and wouldn’t have had the influence to stop even if she had known.
How on Earth are you expecting Leslie to be aware of this? But actually, some of it DID come from the class! Joyce learned that many LGBTQ+ people are homeless, kicked out of their homes, and/or put into rehabilitation programs. She learned that many homeless LGBTQ+ people are turned away from religious charities.
Thank you! What Joyce can gain from this class are facts that she was ignorant of. She did just that. Her reaction was heavily shaped by outside events, yes, but personal experiences have always been more powerful than any lecture.
Maybe a +4 spoon or higher, and who’s gonna put that level of enchantment on a spoon? Homophobic babies repub. regen and their sonic attack abilities are just too high. They’ll chip your HP away before you can finish them off. Unless you took Baby Smiter as a feat, and even then you are a warrior class and could have started with a fork or better as your weapon.
The tick has like, +7 to any spoon by default, true. But he’s a broken-as-hell NPC. What DM would let you play him without nerfing his stats? But fair enough, if you can pass the checks to convince the tick to attack baby’s, you’ve got a baby-slaying spoon warrior.
Maybe some guy just wanted to cast a bunch of spells to level up, so he enchanted the spoon and traded it for money to go buy more stuff to randomly enchant.
By the time you have the levels to give a spoon +4 enchant, you could be enchanting bread knives or soda bottles for significantly more profit and only +3 gp more investment cost.
So? You get more from lower level players when you trade the spoon than when you sell it. And seriously, who wouldn’t want to put some of that junk collectable stuff to good use?
So I know that this sort of situation would be called ‘mansplaining’ if it were a guy telling a woman about female issues. Is there a word for a straight person telling gay people about gay issues? Straightsplaining? Something like that?
Social Justice Warrior – and contrary to ‘popular’ opinion, it’s intentionally ironic. The label started to label people just like Roz – white (usually, but not always), affluent, college-educated straight women who like to “white-rich-educated-straight-splain” social justice to all of us poor SOBs who are living it.
Your description reminds me of a picture I wish I could find – a black girl having her mouth covered while a white girl explains how the black girl is so brainwashed and she can’t possibly think straight so the white girl will be offended on the Internet for her, or something to that affect.
Ok, I had never heard of plebcomics until now, so I went through the KnowYourMeme page and links, and the AMAs with Abby. Now I’m sad I missed out, and I wish I could have talked to her, because she sounds like half the friends I love hanging out with.
The only thing “pretty notoriously racist” I’m seeing there is in the butthurt of various people who are reported to have attacked and/or doxxed her. :/
Though in this case Les is more educated than Roz and is literally teaching a gender studies course, which is exactly the sort of course the anti-SJW crowd would be suspicious of.
And since Joyce herself is a woman you could claim she’s been “living it” and should have no need of gender studies.
I have no doubt that people have used gender studies theorizing to dismiss someone’s lived experience, but I see more people using the SJW term to dismiss attempts to go beyond an unexamined gut reaction.
At this point I think I’ve seen racists/sexists/supremacists use the term far more than anyone else. Like, until now I thought it was specifically a “racist/sexist/supremacist’s term for someone who does not support racist/sexist/supremacist views.”
That’s part of the problem, though. If you don’t want people to “dismiss attempts to go beyond an unexamined gut reaction,” you can’t dismiss people you ASSUME haven’t gone beyond a gut reaction (Joyce), just because their conclusions are different than yours (yours in a general-yours sense).
Joyce certainly came into college very fundie, but that doesn’t mean that gut reactions on her part are the only thing that drive her OR that when they do, they drive her in the “wrong” direction. She knows her Bible stories and passages better than the “pastor’s son” who tried to rape her. She was able to parse out the difference between “loving unconditionally,” as Jesus instructed her to do, from “loving only those who look and think like me” as her parents dictated she do. You can’t do those things without examining them – people who don’t examine their beliefs take their gut reaction at face value and when confronted with it reply, “It’s in the Bible” without offering a citation – because they don’t know it. Sometimes, they can pull the right book title in a vague sense. They were taught their whole lives “it’s in the Bible,” and they never thought to read it critically and comprehensively themselves. Other times, they might get the citation almost there, but they can’t fucking *spell* it correctly on their hate!signs, or they regurgitate select citations and clam up when confronted with the context for it, because they don’t have an understanding of the context. Likewise, they can’t “love unconditionally,” because that requires examining people with even the worst and most hurtful traits and thinking about what motivates them and how they got there, and loving the person despite those things. Joyce had been taught her whole life atheists were evil, but when Dorothy came along, friendly, caring and completely normal, Joyce was able to examine the situation and say, “Yes, I still worry over her soul, yes, I still wish she were Christian, but I can love her anyway.”
Joyce HAS been living a woman’s life, but being a woman doesn’t make anyone exempt from Gender/Women’s Studies. (Being American doesn’t make us exempt from U.S. History, owning a calculator doesn’t make us exempt from Math, either.) She was born with the genitalia to be assigned a female at birth, and we know from Jocelyn’s unfortunate experience that her parents would never, ever, ever deviate from any kind of status quo when it comes to naming their children and enforcing strict gender roles on them. Joyce has also always identified as a woman, and she has always identified herself as straight to others. Those are *legitimate* things some women have as part of their identity.
She also values waiting until marriage to have sex, even after researching the Bible more carefully when Becky challenged her views. And? I was atheist until my senior year of high school and became Pagan during college, and while I didn’t wait until marriage to have sex, I *did* wait until I was in a very stable relationship with a man who would later become my husband. Surprise! Joyce is also looking for that! We then lived together for an additional three years before we got married – my religious beliefs did not conflict with that, and my husband was a liberal enough Christian that he was also okay with it. I place a very high value on the intimate nature of sex and the kind of relationships it is supposed to forge; just because someone “liberated” like Roz thinks it’s little more than cheap entertainment doesn’t change that. Perhaps Roz should examine HER thoughts on that – how many people is she potentially hurting that way? Even if she honestly, genuinely doesn’t give a fuck (pun only partially intended) about any of the men she has sex with, what if one of them were hoping she cared at least a little? What if they went in knowing she wanted to make a sex tape or just party or whatever, but came out of it feeling sad because they wished it was more meaningful to her, because it ended up more meaningful to *them*? How many people like Joe is she hurting without ever realizing it, because they’re struggling to even be honest with themselves? But nope, Roz is SO DONE with all that intimate-partner-wait-until-marriage bullshit the PaTrIaRcHy imposes on women, so she’s clearly right and Joyce is wrong.
Examining beliefs and structures is a two-way street – that’s what Leslie was TRYING to get Roz to listen for five minutes about while Roz shouted over top of her. That’s why ANY competent Gender/Women’s Studies professor doesn’t let students make personal attacks in the classroom.
Most places where I have seen both “SJW” and “mansplain” said, it was the people who called others mansplainers who got called SJWs, not the other way around.
That’s not at all what an SJW is. It’s been used multiple times to label poc and queer women. It’s pretty much “activist I disagree with”. I wouldn’t go around labeling terminology popular with Gamergate as a legitimate word to use.
If I were to use it, it would be for slacktivists who think reblogging something is just as good as actually going out and trying to change the world, and perhaps people like Roz who think having the ‘correct’ opinions means you can skimp on tact.
He’s not saying Gamergate invented the term, he’s saying the sort of people who become Gamergaters are also the sort of people who call other people SJWs.
The idea that reblogging news about social justice isn’t going to change anything, and that people who do that are lazy “slacktivists” is pretty ignorant and judgmental. Our society thrives on technology and social networking and mainstream media (in the US) is an unreliable source to get information about anything that doesn’t directly affect the US. We fight for social justice by advocating for awareness. If people were aware and educated about these issues, they are more likely to view things in a different way. If we can change one person’s mind and they work to change one other person’s mind, then, yes, the world will change. And what exactly do you expect us to “go out” and do? Protest? Visit the “Bureau of Stuff That People Think?” I mean we ARE doing things to change the world.
The term “Social Justice Warrior” may have been around before gamergate, but it was mostly a term used on tumblr by MRAs. Gamergate made it into a popular thing to call people as a form of belittling them and making them feel unimportant and dramatic when they try to call others out on their bullshit. (eg: “Please don’t say that kind of thing, it’s offensive.”
“omg shut up you stupid sjw you’re overreacting, it’s just a joke wow”) The people who think that “most sjw are extremists” are the people who are not advocates for change. Or they are not educated about the social issues we’re fighting for.
It’s been around for years before GamerGate was a thing. Never really paid too much attention to it since I wasn’t really big on the social justice scene and left it to people who were and knew that stuff way better than I ever would.
As for it’s use by Gators. I think you can safely chalk up their usage of SJW to be about as correct as their use of Gamer, Ethics, Morality, Objective, Unbiased, Neutral, or Journalism. They kinda suck across the board.
This. SJW can be roughly defined as “person with an opinion on a social issue I don’t care about,” with the connotation that this makes them automatically wrong.
I don’t think that’s right. I would define an SJW as a liberal activist with extremist tendencies. Of course, then people can argue all day about whether something is extremist or not.
Do you really think “smashing” Roz (I’m going to assume you aren’t advocating actual violence) is going to help her grow up and be a better person? Did it help Joyce?
The closest I’ve ever come learning by being “smashed” has been exactly the kind the of pointed but NOT hate-filled rebuke that Leslie just delivered to Roz. Shame can be useful in small doses, but the idea of psychologically destroying people to fix them is … pretty damned horrible …
Where does it stop? Mass reeducation camps for everyone? Maybe we can throw in a side of slave labor to work off our (yes pretty much all of us get to go eventually) debts to society …
Leslie played it well. “Smashing” someone should be a last resort, not a first strike. Leslie has no more right to hurt Roz for the sake of hurting her than Roz had to do the same to Joyce.
Well, I think it DID help Joyce in this particular instance. I have to agree with you on the rest of it, though: it hurt her horribly at the same time because Roz lost her temper and her patience. That whole second thing is exactly why we shouldn’t go “smashing” people to teach them, in the way you perform surgery with a scalpel rather than a cleaver.
Leslie’s lesson helped Joyce a great deal, yes. Or it would have, if Leslie had been permitted to complete it.
Roz’s ‘lesson’ was the equivalent of a curbstomp. Never helpful, just violence being dished out to 1) make the attacker feel superior and 2) display that ‘superiority’ to an audience.
^ This. Joyce did have a couple of realizations that sent her in search of Becky, but she would have probably gotten a LOT more out of the lesson, and potentially had immediate access to MORE resources to help her, if Roz could have STFU when she was told to. Her ‘curbstomp’ effectively stopped Joyce’s learning in its tracks and disrupted a potentially helpful lesson for the rest of the class – who knows who else in that class was also suffering in silence but was afraid to speak up at all, and were grateful when Joyce spoke up because they desperately wanted those answers themselves? Of those potential students, how many of them now will NEVER speak up again, because they don’t want to be curbstomped in a similar manner by Roz or someone like her?
That’s actually how some people learn, I know people who never got the lesson until it hit them like a train crash. Friends and family kept telling them what would happen if that person continued, but the person never learned until the not so friendly lesson. Hit them.
But Roz has nothing to learn! She said so herself!
I honestly wonder why she’s even taking this class given her beliefs regarding its usefulness to her. I suspect it’s either a required prereq for a major or other classes that interest her, or she (like Walky) is there for the ‘easy’ English credit.
Considering her activist leanings, I’d be willing to bet it’s required for her major. Most likely, she wants to major in something that would require the course, and the reason she’s such a nuisance is because, as she stated, she ‘could teach it’. She probably thinks she’s above the class. There were people like that in some of my lower-level drawing courses, Art Majors who didn’t understand why they couldn’t skip the introductory courses and get into the more advanced stuff, just because they’d been taking art classes their whole lives/were in advanced placement in high school/were clearly more talented than anyone else in the Drawing 1 class.
My gender studies classes had a lot of Roz-esque people. The course was a requirement, but they acted like they could just coast through it because they already knew everything. That attitude usually changed after a couple classes.
David stated here on the tread that Roz is straight, her porno videos pretty much enforced that impression long before he had to say that though. And yes I know, just cause she made porno videos doesn’t mean she can’t like other ‘flavors too’. But I think maybe that’s over-explaing a simple situation.
Leslie’s got the hots for Roz’s older sister Robin whom she met in her class room one day when Robin was visiting in her role as Congresswoman or Senator or whatever she was. So, yes Leslie ‘knows’ Roz, slightly, in a context outside of the classroom.
The reason people feel the need to “over explain” is because it’s really annoying how many people in the comment section for a while now has acted like bisexuality doesn’t exist.
I knew Roz was straight for a while now but it really doesn’t stop it from being tiring to see that all the time, when people say stuff that directly dismisses bisexuality.
I’ve met people with different definitions, but I always considered it that bisexual people would only be attracted to people who were either traditionally male or female, where pan-sexual people are attracted to people regardless of gender or how they express their gender.
But if someone uses the expression for themselves and have a different definition than mine I really don’t mind and I take their word for it.
The default I’ve seen people go for in this was to adopt the admittedly widley-encompassing label of Queer. If that works for you, I say go for it, and don’t worry so much about the specifics of the label. You know what you like, you can find some of that that likes you back and the rest is just semantics.
I think it’d be completely fine for you to identify as pansexual if you feel you relate to it the most and I can see why you would. 🙂 But like Insanenoodlyguy says you don’t need to force a label on yourself that you’re not completely comfortable with and many people use queer and like that expression best, so it’s up to you for sure.
Yeah, rereading my comment, I’d like to clairify that the last thing I’d want is to tell you your label, The Thing. If Pansexual/femsexual works for you, that works for you and that’s what matters. Just hope your not stressing over it.
I have also heard some people say that, since gender is on a spectrum, there are obviously more than two genders, and bi means two, so a bisexual person is specifically attracted to two genders, not necessarily male and female, but any two specific genders on that spectrum. Pansexuals, on the other hand, are attracted to the spectrum as a whole? That was how it was explained to me by a friend who identifies as bisexual. He thought he was pan for a while, but realized that there were really only two specific gender expressions he was attracted to.
The “official” definition of bisexuality is “attraction to your gender and one or more genders,” whereas the definition of pansexuality is “attraction to all genders/regardless of gender.” It has nothing to do with the gender binary, although many years ago the term pansexuality was coined to indicate inclusiveness of trans and nonbinary people. But these days neither one necessarily indicates an attraction to binary genders only, and people more or less just choose whichever term works for them. I identify as nonbinary gender-wise and am attracted to people all across the gender spectrum and I consider myself bisexual because it has a bigger history/community.
I wouldn’t do that, I don’t mind any way people define it, it’s just how I define the expression in regards to myself that I gave, but I’m really not critical of other people’s definitions, I think people should just define themselves how they want and I don’t assume other people have the same one as me, or that if they call themselves bi or pansexual it means they have to be the way I imagine, I’m really not that closed off about it.
I understand, I meant that the misconception makes other people think it’s okay to accuse us of such things or make assumptions about us. That’s why it bothers me.
You can ask any bi or pan person and probaly get a different answer to this lol. For me personally there is no difference between the two because I define my bisexuality as being attracted to both my own and other genders. But there is always gonna be ‘but bi means two!!!!’ people, who have more restrictive ideas and define it as meaning only being attracted to men and women, leaving other genders out, and that’s where the idea of pansexuality comes from, which is attraction to all genders (and agenders and everything in between).
I don’t really care for the gender binary, so I don’t like the ‘men and women only’ definition, but that might just be me. Also I often get ‘then why don’t you just identify as pan?’ from people and I’m like… because I don’t want to? I’ve happily identified as bi for 15 years now, so I don’t really feel the need to change that. I am happy with my defintions. For me. Y’know?
…. and I’m aware that was a very long answer, I’m sorry xD
I don’t know what ‘bi’ and ‘pan’ really mean, and I don’t know how they differ. I identify as ‘bi’. Other people identify as pan. I don’t know why people feel strongly about one word or another. When I meet someone who feels strongly, I’ll ask them to explain their reasoning to me; until then, I’m not worrying about it because I’m too ignorant to make any kind of reasonable guess.
This may be a stupid question but Why is Roz being so nasty? Joyce has said ignorant and hurtful things, but it seems like Joyce’s change of heart made her especially angry.
Personally I think its just youthful arrogance. As has been mentioned before, we’ve seen Roz make claims about how she already “knows this subject”. When Dorothy brought Joyce to the party she said “maybe she might learn something”.
Making statements on the treatment of gays would certainly fit in that pattern.
She tried to tear down someone who’s legitimately a good person at heart and is learning to be a better person, then got called on her bullshit, and when she tried to double down, got called on it again. She finally realized double-doubling down wasn’t going to work to boost her ego or her reputation, so she stomped off in an embarrassed huff.
Don’t think she is. In an earlier conversation she mentioned having other siblings besides her Congresscritter sister. (She complained that if her parents just used condoms she wouldn’t go bankrupt buying christmas presents every year.)
That suggests that at least some of her siblings are younger than her.
Roz is angry because Joyce expressed anger at something that was a logical consequence of several beliefs that Joyce has been expressing. How can something Joyce has known for many years provoke sudden outrage?
Could be that while she might have considered homosexuality as wrong, she was never really to what the ultimate result of such bigotry would be.
Its possible that within her family’s social circle, no other people have come out as gay prior to Becky. (perhaps all the homosexuals are closeted, or maybe they just have a small enough circle of friends.) So, she might never have witnessed someone being expelled from their family, or subject to abuse in an attempt to ‘correct’ them.
Well, we just don’t know! It could be superiority, like the anti-Roz people think. It could be that she’s seen people like Joyce have these revelations and then quickly reject their own part in it. It could be she’s having a bad day and lashing out at Joyce. Until we get more information, we’re not sure (though we’ll sure act like we are in the comments section!)
One: She’s seen people use their religion as a shield to hide their own bigotry and antics. Joyce blaming the church for trying to forcibly anti-gay people, while she’s still “Dating” Ethan, could have hit the angry rant button.
Or Two: she’s a “Social Activist” (Note the qoutes!) and Roz herself uses that platform to get her shaming lady-boner off. Otherwise known as “Tumblring”
Roz doesn’t know about Ethan, though. She knows nothing of Joyce outside of the classroom and has nothing to base her judgement on but speculation (and possibly past experience with people other than Joyce).
Roz’s every interaction with Joyce makes it very easy to guess that Joyce is treating non-hetero people unfairly due to her beliefs. Roz is correct on that, but it’s still probably unfair of her to assume it without actually witnessing it.
I’ve seen the word “teacher” used in excess here in the comments. I think it is also important to remember that this is a college classroom. Leslie is the professor, not just “teacher.” As such she would expect her students to act like adults no matter what their age. (I say this from experience, I’ve been to college, I have a BA).
In a college classroom everyone, no matter what year they are in, or how many credits they have, or even how old they actually are is expected to act with a certain level of maturity. The moment a student shows that they aren’t on that level the professor generally will do what they must to keep that student’s inability to function on the collegiate level from disrupting and effecting their short class period.
In this case it is reflected in Leslie’s choice to have Roz leave the classroom. Roz has shown that she is unable to maintain the minimum level of maturity in a collegiate setting by verbally berating one of her fellow classmates in a vehement manner regarding the subject matter. (Regardless if what Roz said has some validity to it, the manner in which she said it was unacceptable.) Although Leslie seems the type of professor to genuinely care for her students she cannot allow that kind of behavior in her classroom. Even more so considering that the topic of discussion is such a touchy one.
As a college prof, I agree that Leslie was totally justified in kicking out Roz. But losing her temper like this with a student was probably not the best way of removing her while maintaining her authority.
There is also a certain difference between a school teacher and a college/university professor. At least in my country where I study. Namely that a teacher has (ideally received specific training to educate pupils and if the children aren’t learning it is (in theory if not always in practice) the teacher’s responsibility. A professor is someone the colllege or university hires (ideally) because they are considered to be experts at a particular subject, but they aren’t required to have a teacher’s education. They’re paid to speak before a group of students who decide for themselves if they want to attend class and if they’re not learning, it’s their own responsibility, not the professor’s. Of course, that doesn’t mean the professor doesn’t feel responsible, especially if they have a background as teachers, but the role is different.
College educators (teacher is a common shorthand for “person with teaching responsibility”) try to move away from that mindset for the simple reason that a more involved teaching strategy works better in terms of how much the students actually learn. Compare Leslie to… whatever his name is, the math teacher Jason and Penny TA for, and you have a good in universe demonstration.
I don’t think anyone has argued against Leslie asking Roz to leave the class room. That was the right decision even if she could have done it slightly differently (as argued by several people elsewhere).
Joyce has been home schooled for 18 years of her life. Her beliefs were solely determined by her parents. She wasn’t allowed to even ride a friggin’ bike outside her neighborhood till she was 16. So yeah. Joyce does deserve a pass.
I don’t understand why Roz is so bitter about this. At least Joyce is growing.
On a somewhat related note, I wonder how Joyce will react if she finds out about Jocelyne.
I wonder if that stuff would matter to her anyway. All the things about how her beliefs were determined could probably be said about her parents too, right? How many people here are inclined to give them a pass?
Joyce deserves credit not because her beliefs were pushed on her, but because she’s a good enough person to have started growing through them. But she’s still starting; she’s applied at least one harsh judgment or stereotype to just about every person she’s met in a new demographic.
You’re right, which is further reason why Roz shouldn’t be making judgement calls on Joyce’s personality and background. Everything she knows about Joyce is what she’s presented in class; she knows nothing of Joyce’s repressed background and has not been present for any of her character development. Yet Roz speaks as though she has personally witnessed Joyce toss a gay person to the wolves.
I think the Roz thing struck more true for me is because of Ethan.
If Joyce hadn’t been trying to start her own one woman de-gaying center with Ethan, I’d not have wanted to throw a book at her head for throwing the church under the bus for something she herself was happily willing to do herself.
Roz is a hypocrite, but so is Joyce. Joyce is working on not being one, but thinking that changing absolves you from critique just.. irks the hell out of me.
Nah, if Joyce thought she was absolved from critique, she would have just ignored Roz’s. Joyce just sort of forgot she was still open to critique.
Joyce, changed?: “I am so angry at the church!”
Roz, critiquing: “You’re no hero. Until today, the church was you!”
Joyce’s face, critiqued: “ohhhhhhhhhh. dang.”
Nah I think Ghola is likely responding to people in the comments who are defending Joyce by saying “But she’s changing!” Yes she is, yes she should be commended for it, but she should not be absolved from critique.
(Then again I’m not Ghola so I may be misrepresenting their comments.)
And for in-comic irking:
Everyone but Bean is wrong.
Joyce is wrong for throwing blame at the Church, and not at the people (including herself, albeit not intentionally) that use the Church for bigotry. She’s hiding her own shortcomings by throwing her finger at the church and yelling “THEY MADE ME THIS WAY” and that finger pointing *infuriates* me.
Roz wasn’t wrong in pointing out that hypocrisy, or for yelling at Dorothy for putting her head in the sand in regards to Joyce’s issues, but she picked the very worst way, time, and place for it. While probably fueling that anger with her own internal issues, which is also bad.
To be fair, what Dorothy said was essentially ‘Hey, let her learn’. Which is in no way putting her head in the sand about anything, it’s simply an acknowledgement that this is a class, and people should be learning.
You sound to me like you think Dorothy should have joined in on Roz’s bullying and vilifying of Joyce.
since I can’t replay to anonymsly for…whatever reason.
I think she should be more proactive in poking Joyce bout her choices. Things like Ethan, and the sexual assault.
Not in an “beating over the head” way, but doing more then just shrugging your shoulders and hoping everything works out. Or blindly supporting each choice they make regardless of how you feel about those choices yourself.
It just seems a bit halfassed, or fair weather friend-ish. There’s letting your friends find their own path through the mine field, and there’s watching them run screaming into one holding a magnet you know?
@Ghola, this is a perfectly natural part of the strip – when the thread tree gets too long, you loose the ability to apply to ones a certain level out. I assume this is to prevent everlasting directory generation and to make cleanup easier in the case of a deletion.
Also @Ghola: I’ll give you the Ryan incident, but Dorothy literally found out about Ethan’s gayness at-most-but-more-likely-less-than an hour ago, assuming she’s smart enough to put the pieces together (which isn’t unreasonable). But then Walky mentioned Becky so conversation followed that tack for a while. And then it was then drowned out by the whole “ALL HAIL SATAN” thing. And then class started so it had to be put on hold for a little while. And THEN Roz slammed Joyce for her epiphany so Dorothy has to make sure Joyce has calmed down enough before she can tear in in turn without, actually, y’know, tearing in. Dorothy’s conduct regarding Ethan is understandable.
To be fair, as others have pointed out, Joyce didn’t think what she was doing was wrong (which it was). Ethan was not only totally on board with the idea, he expressed the desire to stop being gay before she suggested ‘fixing’ him. Does that absolve her offering it? Of course not, but again, she didn’t think it was wrong because it was what Ethan said he wanted. Joyce is only now realizing what an awful thing she did. Notice her expression in panel three of “Faith-Based”; she goes from sadness to anger after Leslie mentions the ‘rehabilitation’ thing. I could be wrong here, but placing that expression after that word seems to imply that she’s angry at herself. Joyce is trying to correct some of her hypocrises, even if it’s a very bumpy road. It doesn’t excuse anything, but it’s progress, and that’s important.
Given how Joyce has reacted to Sarah (the first black person she ever met and her beloved Big Sis), Dorothy (her beloved and atheist best college friend), Billie (one of her other best friends), Ethan (a boy she cares deeply for and she is trying to help in exactly the way he’s asked for), and Becky (her dearest childhood friend and lifelong best friend who is also a lesbian), I suspect Joyce will react to Jocelyne with love and support after the thirty seconds it takes her to adjust to the idea.
Maybe longer than thirty seconds, considering her initial reactions to most of the above took a few days for her to get over. She’s still pretty much 100% going to accept Jocelyn though– her greatest characteristics are her surprising openmindedness and the kindness it springs from.
Anyone notice that there might be a bit of hypocrisy on Roz’s part?
On one hand, she looks down on Joyce for her association with a bigoted church, as well as Dorothy for being an enabler for Joyce’s bigotry. However, she freely associates with Joe, even though his attitudes are seen by some as less than enlightened (sexually objectifying lesbians, etc.)
Man, i have been waiting for panel 3 since Tuesday. Shame that Roz is too hot-headed at the moment to let it sink in.
The one rule of being an ally is to never let your principles become more important than the people you want to defend. If you have to shout down an LGBT people in order to perform your ‘activism’, then you’re doing the same thing that the bigots are doing: ignoring the opinions of the oppressed. That’s what it all boils down to.
The problem with Roze is that shes judge an individual without knowing it. The worst Joice has ever do is going for “condemn the sin, not the sinner” aka “being gay is as bad as lying”, which is not good, but even then she reformed from this kind of thinking.
We directly saw that, put in as situation where an acquaintance turned out to be gay, she would welcome her with open arm.
You simply don’t judge an individual by the actions of a community they belong to, but only by their own decision.
Roze outright say make accusation in the second panel she doesn’t even know if they are true and we reader, outright know they are false (I don’t think Joyce ever shouted on anyone). I don’t know where the inner anger from Roze come from, but she directed it to the wrong person.
I think I get your point, even through the auto-correct haze, but I’m not sure it was the point I was making. Let me try again: When Joyce beat up Joe, he got hurt, physically and emotionally. Later, Joyce defended herself by saying it was impossible for a woman to hurt a man, (which is an utter myth and a very damaging one at that, but that’s another argument), but the point remains that Joyce physically and emotionally hurt a fellow human being with the intent to cause harm. If you consider that slapstick, what else do you consider slapstick? I’m pretty sure we agree the line puts Ryan on the “not funny” side, but I’d like a bit more room between “attempted rape” and that line than “assault and battery” would put.
Most of the professors in theri head at that moment: Yes finally they are taking the hint and leaving. Soon all of them will leave and the teaching process can finaly go on unmolested by these meddling students. Seriosly, who the hell had the bright idea to let students into the classrooms.
Ok so Roz wasn’t wrong in what she said to Joyce, Joyce does need to be fully accountable for her actions, Roz shouldn’t be acting like a dick in Leslies class and should listen to Leslie
However Joyce and Roz are quite passionate about their beliefs but are teenagers and gender studies class sounds like it touches on certain controversial subjects which to me sounds like a combination guaranteed to get walkouts every so often
and I wish I’d had a teacher/professor like Leslie
As much as I would have loved having one too, I’m almost positive that I’d have driven a Leslie-teacher insane.
Meanwhile Joe is just in the back, watching pornhub on his phone, muttering about this is why he doesn’t let feelings inside his cold, unfeeling heart.. Which is only used to pump blood into his shwee, and that’s the way he likes it.
Okay, this is gonna be a bit of a teal deer, but I feel the need for it….
We often get a lot of comments here about “Joyce’s background”, usually in the context of excusing some of her more accidentally hurtful behavior.
It’s frustrating that the audience here is less prone to give Roz the same benefit. The two of them are about the same age. ANd yes, Joyce lived in a sheltered environment where all the decision-making was kept out of her hands, and where she had to accept a single interpretation of a book of scripture.
But I suggest that Roz is no less a creature of her own upbringing, and using the only tools she was ever given to deal with a conflict.
Some things we know:
1: Her parents didn’t believe in using birth control. Odds are high that they are either Catholic or some conservative flavor of Evangelical Christian. (Not certain, but high.)
2: She has a large family with numerous siblings, and lots of sisters in particular–as anyone from that situation will tell you, standing up for yourself, aggressively, is going to be important, or else you’re pretty much gonna be the one who somehow never has their own toys.
3: Robin is a political creature. This is very important. If you’ve never been in a politically minded family… the culture is very different. You have to put forward your best, most aggressive argumetns, especially if your viewpoint is in the minority (say, pro-contraception in a Catholic household), because if you don’t, you will get shot down–and shouted down, when looking at the number of people involved. This means that you don’t hold back on the cheap shots. You never take ones that are literally unfair (meaning having no basis). But you don’t worry about couching them in niceties.
And another thing–given that Roz’s position likely frequently put her into conflict with her parents, appeals to authority are not likely to work with her. That’s why Leslie had to get confrontational, here–and note, as soon as she did, Roz backed down, hard. Much like she did in the ‘I hate it when other people have good arguments’ situation.
Because that’s probably literally true. In the family environment I admit I am mostly extrapolating from hints, a valid argument that gets you shot down is a win–and you pretty much have to accept it, if you want to be able to be a participant in the next discussion. And that’s vital if you want to be an active member of the family.
Hell, look at Riley–her politics, as you’d expect of a twelve year old, run more to matters of Count Chockula vs. Boo-Berry, but I can see hints of that same strong will and willingness to advance your case in her.
Roz desperately needs to learn that her home environment is not always going to be how the world works–but give her as much slack as you’re inclined to give Joyce for her own upbringing.
I think where the difference lies is that we see Joyce trying to change, no matter how long or rocky that road has been and will continue to be. Whereas every time someone suggests Roz might be wrong or might not know everything, she immediately goes on the defence. Roz states point blank that she could teach the gender studies class, and when Leslie tells her she can’t know everything, she becomes angry. And it’s blatantly clear Roz didn’t learn the lesson of that class, since Leslie was making the point that you can’t know everything about a person from limited social interactions, and here’s Roz acting like she does know everything about Joyce. To drive this further, when her hypocrisy is called out, Roz storms off. Her expression in panel four doesn’t read to me as “shit, I got shot down”, but rather as “how dare you accuse me of doing anything similar to Joyce”. She looks flat out offended, not like she’s backing down. But that’s just how I’m interpreting it.
Now yes, all this is likely born from her background just as much as Joyce’s actions in the past are. But again, Roz seems to have no desire to learn anything about sex and gender outside of what she already believes. Hell, she’s flat out said that. And this can be read as being quite immature, self-righteous, and arrogant. All three of those things can sit very poorly with an audience, regardless of the character’s motivations or backgrounds.
Really, when you break it down, Roz and Joyce are actually remarkably similar. Joyce is defended more because, as far as we’ve seen in the comic, she’s making an effort to improve herself while Roz believes there’s nothing about herself to improve. We have a limited scope since we follow Joyce’s character development more often, yes. That having been said, the comic has been going on for well over four years and I don’t think Roz has had any actual character development. From an audience perspective, people are going to be more inclined to defend and sympathize with a character trying to better themselves than a character who is stagnant. Here’s hoping Roz gets more development in the future and recognizes her own faults.
Sorry for the rant, I actually think your point is very valid. I’m just trying to decipher why Joyce is generally seen as more sympathetic than Roz.
Very well-stated. Plus, let’s not forget that Joyce’s previous standpoint on homosexuality stemmed from ignorance, not malice. I think that society deems the former more forgiveable than the latter. Joyce in general seems to be fearful of those with different viewpoints from her own, but doesn’t bear any ill will toward them. Joyce has said some pretty awful things under the kindest of intentions. While that certainly doesn’t absolve her of blame, it seems more forgiveable than Roz or Mary, whose acts of unkindness stem from anger and hatred.
In short, I think that people tend to like those who are kind but ignorant over those who are educated but malicious. Which is kinda the attitude I take when I vote democrat every year. *Rimshot*
Part of my point is that Roz is probably not used to people who don’t handle confrontation in such a direct fashion. She’s expecting people to push back in a similar way. When that doesn’t happen, she’s assuming that this means she’s winning the argument–because that’s what it’s meant for the past eighteen years of her life. You push and you challenge until you yield.
That’s why I’m putting more weight than some on her decision to leave the classroom. Roz is of a mindset where she won’t just leave the conversation. However, Leslie’s last demand of her was to go–accepting that instruction is, in her mind, conceding the point.
That got me thinking – there are similarities between Roz and Dorothy as well. Both are (or wants to be) good allies, both are well educated in LGBT+ issues and both consider themselves smarter than their peers. But Dorothy is genuinely helpful and understanding of people with different opinions while Roz pushes them down. Hard. (thanks for good possible reasons why, Freemage).
Basically, we have Dorothy and Joyce vs Roz and Mary, each neatly fitting a square in the conservative/liberal and understanding/judgmental scale.
And as has been pointed out – Joyce and Dorothy are friends and help each other understand the other’s point of view. Mary and Roz are room mates and… maybe do less to foster tolerance in the other.
There’s still something I have issue with. Roz is abrasive and aggressive? Yes. Roz is “liberal Mary”? No. Mary quite clearly wants people to feel bad and to have bad things happen to them as a result of not living up to standards she decrees. She’s using “the rules” as cover for being able to hurt people.
Roz may be causing harm, but I would argue strongly that we’ve no evidence that’s her intent. Honestly, I’d compare her more directly with Joyce on this. She means well, sincerely, and wants people to be happy. However, because she’s not used to people who aren’t trained at debate, she hurts people without intending to.
Agreed! Mostly. I had the same response to the “liberal Mary” tag, because Roz just seems to be a self-righteous jerk with a major chip on her shoulder, but Mary is actively malicious.
I don’t think Joyce is the right comparison either though, as I don’t see Roz trying to do the right thing and unintentionally hurting people. Joyce believes (believed?) she knows The Truth, and that everyone else would be so much happier and better off if they knew it too. Roz believes she knows The Truth, and that makes her better than the people who don’t.
I’ve just been flicking back through her tag in the archives and struggling to find anything that wasn’t motivated either by her holier-than-thou attitude (see e.g. every interaction she’s had with Leslie in class) or trying to stick it to Robin (sex tape, interview with Dotty, setting up RobinxLeslie). The only non-self-centered act I saw, as many others have noted, was towards Joyce after the party.
I think her sex information campaign is largely motivated by helping people. She knows something awesome most people don’t (sex is actually nothing to be ashamed of), and she wants to share it.
Of course, if a photo on Robin’s sister with a dildo on her head happens to show up in social media that would be nice too.
Not quite on the level of calling someone a bongo, if you ask me. Willis acted not just due to frequency of use, but also due to the sexism inherent in how the term is used.
Leslie looks guilty in the last panel. I mean, from her perspective, i can understand why. She had to put the moral smack-down on a student. But, really, Roz had it coming. She was being a hypocrite.
Joyce was having a moment of self-discovery and Roz made her feel bad about it. What kind of asshole says “Yeah. You’re learning. But you didn’t learn fast enough, so fuck you.”
There’s a saying I saw somewhere that said “I’m not the person I want to be. But I’ve grown from the person I used to be. And that’s enough, for now.” I think someone needs to impart that lesson on to Roz; the past is the past. Joyce can’t change that, and making her feel guilty about her past (and current) ignorance, isn’t going to help.
I’m just going to say it. If Joyce had her moment of discovery in reaction to something Roz had said the Roz wouldn’t have attacked her. This all feels like Roz is less upset about Joyce’s past self then the fact that Roz wasn’t the central cause of her reevaluating her life.
Now it goes without saying that we haven’t seen a lot of what’s going on in Roz’s life. Who knows maybe some action she’s been espousing as the correct more enlightened path has bitten her in the proverbial tucas and now she feels as close to guilt or cognitive dissonance as she can and in her mind Joyce is the icon of everyone who’s been telling her she’s wrong and it galls her in some way that they might be right so any moment of Joyce growing is met with lashing out.
but barring that I can only say that I feel like it’s simply a case of Roz’s actions not coming from an emphatic place but rather an Ego driven place. That is to say I don’t think that Roz does most of what she does because she has thought about right and wrong but simply because she has created a line in the sand and acts the way she does simply because she’s on one side of that line.
In that way Roz is very much like hyper judgie christian girl who’s name I have completely blanked on. That is to say neither of them concider why they’ve chosen their side of the line they simply act out the part they think they should and do so to make their ego feel better then everyone around them for failing to stay on the “right” side of the line all the while failing to recognize that there is no line.
I’d tell you the name of “hyper judgie christian girl”, but I think it would be better if we all just forgot it. That way, she can never grow in power and cause trouble for anyone anywhere ever again!
Hyper-judgy Christian girl is Mary, Roz’s roommate.
And I agree that they seem to be, right now, the same character on opposite sides: the hateful, close-minded extremist. Roz has had one or two moments where she’s been more than that, though, so there’s some hope that over time she’ll become less of a mirror.
Heck, the fact that they room together may be causing them to polarize, pushing them away from each other, and towards the radical extremes of their beliefs. Sometimes living with people who are different from you can help smooth your rough edges; but sometimes, they just make them sharper.
Also, their roommate-relationship is apparently acrimonious enough that Mary refers to Roz’s whole family as monsters.
And you know, if Mary is a dark mirror of Joyce in turn, that puts a new spin on things, in a way. Sarah becomes the mirror of Roz, and a good example, as Deanatay said, of how sometimes living with people who are different from you can help smooth your rough edges. Roz is getting sharper from close contact with Mary, Sarah is opening up a bit and making real human connections from close contact with Joyce.
Multiple layers in all directions! That’s some good writing.
In therapy one calls Roz’s behavior “stuck.” She had something she had to say, and rational arguments for why she shouldn’t say it / shouldn’t say it here / shouldn’t say it now…those got ignored, because she wasn’t having an argument with a present person.
You can tell she’s having an argument with a past person because of her outburst about “having to treat Joyce like a hero.” Nobody suggested that. Nobody even said, “Hey, good point Joyce” when Joyce got all pissed. Or gave her a thumbs-up for saying it. Leslie didn’t say, “I’m proud of you for recognizing that,” or even, “That’s correct.”
Roz wasn’t merely making assumptions about practically every aspect of Joyce’s character. She was also certain she knew how the rest of this conversation was going to go down.
She was stuck in a past fight.
Typically, getting someone out of a past fight calls for a) the end of the fight-in-their-head (just letting them say their piece), or b) a total non-sequitur (interrupting with, “Nice how we’re having weather, isn’t it?”), or c) another conversational tool, such as the one Leslie used here, that forces them to recognize the parameters of the present situation don’t match the past fight.
I figured the “hero” thing might just be a reaction to Joyce having an unexpected outburst in the first place. The way I thought of it, Roz might’ve been thinking something like:
“Why is Joyce speaking up like this all of a sudden? …So others can hear it.
Why does she want others to hear it? …So they’ll respect her for it.
But Joyce’s church-villainy narrative skips right over her own part in it, like the way a politician would tell the story!”
I have to agree that Roz may absolutely be re-enacting a past fight in her head. It’d explain why Roz is accusing Joyce of a thing Roz hasn’t actually witnessed Joyce doing: treating queer people unfairly. (I mean, Joyce HAS done that in quiet ways, but Roz hasn’t actually witnessed it.) And Roz’s history, from a family that does not share her views and is full of headstrong people, makes it very likely that this is a fight she’s had in the past– but with someone who brushed her words aside rather than actually listening.
5 minutes is really comparable to 18 years is it?
And the straight/gay reference of those left behind has nothing to do with the discussion of Joyce being a bongo so that is out of place as well.
Oh, Leslie knows that. That’s why she looks so down in the last panel. What she also knows is that what she did was the only way to get Roz to shut up.
More likely it’ll cut to someone else. Team Joyce needs time to find Becky, and everything in Leslie’s classroom has just been resolved. (I thought it would’ve made that cut today and left Roz’s scoldings offscreen, but this was so much better.)
Right now, I’m mostly hoping Dorothy and Walky can catch up with Joyce before she gets too far ahead of them. It’s been a really rough night/day for her, and she’s not really in a good place mentally right now. And these last few days, I’ve been thinking to myself, “All Joyce needs now is for Ryan to show up and catch her alone and it’ll officially be the Worst Day Ever for her,” and I’m really worried that might actually happen now.
One angle I have to bring up is that for a lot of the other students in the class, this has basically been Roz interrupting the whole thing for what looks like a personal vendetta. Like even if you think she was right to tell Joyce off, she was still being somewhat of a jerk to all of her classmates
And Roz was never seen again. Though some say if you listen closely on the darkest of nights you can hear the sound of bongos in the distance, but nobody understands why.
Some people thought Leslie was a poor teacher for telling Roz to shut up, but she was disrupting the class with a personal attack and had already been asked several times to dial it down. Given that we’ve established Roz is straight, I guess we need to see why she took such personal umbrage at Joyce (who has actually been doing a good job of expanding her world view beyond her religious teachings).
I’m pretty sure no one has said that Leslie is a bad teacher. I’m absolutely sure no one has suggested that Leslie was wrong to silence Roz.
Me and a few others have said that there are other ways she could have solved this situation, and that this sort of thing is a risk with her laid back teaching style, in short that Leslie is a human and not a perfect education machine. That doesn’t translate to bad teacher. Not only is Leslie the only teacher we have seen who is not actively bad – she is genuinely good.
Ugh, poor Les. Aside from having half her class just walk out, I suspect she’ll be pissed with herself for letting Roz rile her into issuing a personal burn (awesome and well-earned as it was) right after telling Roz she couldn’t do that to Joyce. I doubt Roz will miss it, either.
I may be misjudging Roz here, but I can’t think of anything to suggest she’s likely to take take a personal epiphany from this, rather than doubling down on “that GS teacher is such a fake, privilege-enabling bongo!”
Mary’s kind of pretty though, in an Edwardian way. Shame about her personality; also, I’m Ethan a lot of the time, which is a bit of a bummer (I like the character in the comic, but for the sake of story, not as much his personality)
I see it now. Maybe you mis-typed your email address, causing the comment system to believe you are a different user. It’d explain why it gave you a new random avatar and flagged your ‘first’ post for moderation.
Roz brings up a good point: Where was this anger yesterday, and every day you have known Joyce before that? Until today, didn’t you give her a free pass? Why wait until after she’s learned her lesson to condemn her? I mean what did you want to happen here? What sort of punishment did you have in mind for Joyce, that learning what she’s done wrong is not enough?
But Roz was the one Leslie was condemning, and Roz was condemning both Joyce and Leslie. Also I don’t see Roz having learned anything, so please enlighten me if I’ve missed it (which is possible/likely).
Too true. I’m studying International Relations right now under a highly Conservative, Christian, very white professor. He’s one of the kindest and most broad-minded people I’ve known; he never attacks students, even when one guy spent a long time tearing into religious people as narrow-minded homophobes who were either all in the closet or out to destroy the world with their ideology (that was the day we found out he was Christian; after asking the student a few questions to try and turn the rant into a more academic disagreement, he remarked that he was a devout Anglican, that he would certainly like to know if we felt his teaching method was in any way oppressive, and left it at that). He also encourages all free thinking, be it even Marxist. We found out he was Republican after we saw him on a liberal talk show, as the Conservative guest speaker.
So yeah, a free pass for what? A good professor allows free thinking, even when it glaringly opposes their personal philosophies.
As for why Roz is so aggressive, well, others have better theories than I do. My personal favorite is here. But if you trawl through the comments over the past few days you’ll find a lot more.
Joyce: *Has taken 4 weeks to show personal development in a class, which she openly states she might walk back later*
Readers: ohhh yay joyce it is so great that you’re ~~learning~~
Roz: *Is in the middle of being angry with someone and in the heat of the moment gets called out righteously and doesn’t react perfectly in the next five seconds*
Readers: wow Roz you are a terrible person you never learn anything
Any particular reason you posted that reply to this comment? The E-man linked to one of the more egalitarian fan-theories regarding Roz’s attitude to Joyce, basically stating that she was a product of her environment as much as Joyce was, and on top of that seems to be giving Roz more support than you’re implying. If you’d posted straight or to a more acid comment, I’d understand better, but I’m a bit confused as to your point of doing it here.
My intention was to point out another issue with how roz had been Treated by other commenters, as a supplement to the perspective E-man provided, if that makes sense?
Ooh, that’s a very good theory. And I’d completely forgotten that Mary rooms with Roz, which probably hasn’t helped.
Roz she really reminds me a friend who got upset that she wasn’t invited to an event held by her (progressive) church for LGBT people – it’s great that you want to be an ally, but part of that means you have to sit down and listen and realize that it’s not about you.
Oh. Does Carla get a room to herself because she is agender and thus can not room with a member of the same sex, male or female? (Although I would have thought agenders would be able to room with anyone, but I guess I’m wrong.)
It’s worth noting that Dorothy HASN’T just let Joyce’s views and opinions slide. She hasn’t been confrontational about it, but she’s not afraid to share her own views with Joyce (for example, the fact that she’s an atheist), and she does it in a way that helps Joyce realize that the people she’s been taught to vilify are still people. The only time she ever really backed down was when Joyce’s parents were upset with her.
Almost all of Joyce’s friends are continually challenging her views, whether they mean to or not. Think of Billie and her “I think we all try gay stuff from time to time” comment, or every time Sarah calls her out. Heck, even Walky’s first conversation with Joyce criticized her worldview (though not in a super helpful or productive way).
*takes a deep breath and sighs* Ah… sweet sweet vindication. I’ll expand on this later as I’m currently at work on my phone. Need a full keyboard for this amount of intellectual smack down.
I’m struck by how well Willis gets into the headspace of all the different characters, from dialogue to expression. I understand he’s had years with these folks, but man. They’re alive.
These comments are reminding me of why I have so much anxiety surrounding teaching. I’m willing to bet that all the second-guessing going on here is happening in Leslie’s head right now (and will continue for quite some time).
What? How? Because she told a student to get off her high horse and stop speaking over the minorities she was deigning to speak for? She derailed a discussion and made another student cry. She doesn’t even acknowledge that Joyce just saved her from getting thrown out of class. She just keeps grandstanding and telling the gay people in the room how to feel.
Contrary to what some posters thinks, Roz lost that horribly as it pretty much put her in her place as far as I’m concerned. Professors, and I work in academia, need to sometimes treat their students as the children they often act like.
Does Roz want an education or not? THEN SHUT UP AND LISTEN.
You should treat everyone the way they act like they deserve to be treated. Right now Roz is acting immature and self-righteous. I think Leslie responded in the best way possible.
Adulthood is not measured by age or any physical quantity (okay, maybe legally and religiously, but not practically), it is measured by emotional maturity, which often lags far behind physical maturity. When you act like a child, the only way to reprehend you is to treat you like a child. That means time-outs for temper tantrums, like Roz’s little display over the last few days.
Eh? Let’s read Leslie’s face in the last two strips, instead of just the speech bubbles:
“Oh no, Joyce has something terrible going on, I wish she’d stay so we can work on it.”
“Uh? Well…Dorothy seems to know what’s going on, so maybe she can help Joyce…but this is really not ideal.”
“Dammit. This is something so tangled up, even Walky’s messed up in it. This situation is spiraling out of control, and there’s nothing I can do about it.”
“Anybody else hurt by Roz’s bullshit?”
“Dammit, Joe, this is NOT the time for that crap.”
“Fudge on a stick, how the hell do I salvage THIS now, with the problem still yelling over top of me?”
I think it’s interesting that Leslie didn’t ask Roz to leave. Roz took it upon herself to leave after she was put down rather than deciding to be quiet. I think she didn’t want to deal with the embarrassment of being in class after that but wanted to make a grand dramatic gesture.
*Was* it a “grand dramatic exit”? Joyce’s body language pretty clearly said, “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to get people in trouble, I feel bad about this whole situation, including what I did before, so I’ll leave now before it gets worse.” Roz’s body language pretty clearly says, “Oh, fuck this, I’m out.” I’d say hers was quite a bit more “grand” than Joyce’s. :/
How so? “Roz needs to leave” was intended both to stop the argument and to be a disciplinary action for starting the argument in the first place. Joyce’s departure only fixed one half of that situation. Roz is leaving now after being sufficiently (though probably not fully) convinced that the disciplinary action was justified.
Honestly, Roz in this entire strip has reminded me of my sister. And yes, we did come from an extremely strict, conservative homeschooling family. But I see this not as a product of that environment (after all, most of my siblings aren’t like this), but more as a product of extreme self-absorption. You can’t hold these kinds of beliefs in a black-and-white, right or wrong world and actually care about other people (or empathize with their feelings). And the defensiveness is because ONLY her feelings are correct and important. She’s gone through so much crap too, because she can’t see shades of gray…got an abortion and all of a sudden “anyone who keeps their baby is an idiot” (said in front of my other sister and her toddler son). I can’t stand being around people like her and Roz, and I wish they would just think about other people for once.
It makes me a little uncomfortable that Leslie “wins” this argument with an appeal to her identity. I mean, wouldn’t she still have been right to ask Roz to leave had she been straight and Roz gay?
I felt the same way about it at first, but it’s sort of playing into what Roz is doing. Roz is shouting about how Joyce doesn’t deserve to feel good about her recent epiphany because she’s been “shouting down gay people” and Leslie is pointing out that Roz is literally doing that by ignoring her repeated attempts to get her to stop.
I’d be a lot more forgiving of Roz if she actually was gay and saying this to Joyce. It’s one thing to be an ally angry for the LGBT community, but it’s a whole new ballgame to actually listen to this little fundie girl suddenly realize that you’re people too. Leslie would still be right to tell Roz not to harass Joyce in class, but it wouldn’t really be as meaningful.
Yes, but Leslie took advantage of the situation to get Roz to shut the frick up after repeatedly trying, and failing, to appeal to authority. If the roles had been reversed, Leslie might have had to resort to more violent measures.
Leslie did tell Roz why she was wrong multiple times before it got to this point.
“Roz, no. We talk about the material, not eachother.”
“Roz– Everyone. We can’t get mad at eachother for learning the actual curriculum of the class we’re in. That’s kind of why we’re all here.”
Very clearly communicated why Roz was wrong regardless of her orientation.
The final remark is the one that got Roz to march out in a huff, but I wouldn’t say it’s what “won” her the argument. Their relationship doesn’t have room to argue this subject on equal footing to begin with. The moment Leslie told Roz to stand down and Roz persisted, Roz was established to be wrong because she’s not the one who gets to decide how the class discussions are run. Everything beyond that was just Roz digging herself in deeper, putting her foot in her mouth.
Roz is wrong. Her feelings are understandable given her interactions with Joyce so far, but her conclusions are false and her actions unacceptable. As has been pointed out, ridiculing a person at a moment of personal growth is the absolute opposite of productive. So is haranguing them in the middle of class. A class that you’re not teaching.
I guess that stuff could be left off as it’s been argued basically to death already, but here’s something people so far seem to have missed: Yes Roz, Joyce gets a free pass. Because you know what that’s called? Forgiveness.
Heh. That’s a loaded word, though. Can you forgive someone who hasn’t asked for it? Joyce’s phrasing, as has been pointed out, put the onus for everything on ‘the church’, and took on none of it for herself, no matter how passive and ignorant her involvement with said church was. In many ways, that’s the crux of Roz’s complaint–Joyce isn’t seeking forgiveness, so why should she be granted it? (Note, I can answer that question, actually, but it is a fair one to ask.)
Should a bird kept in a cage away from windows put the onus on itself for not knowing or feeling the experiences of the birds in the tree outside? If it escapes and makes its way to the tree and tries to explain the worldview inside the cage, should it be condemned for being a survivor and not dying from ignorance of a world it never knew?
SJW often gets tossed around at pretty much anyone into egalitarianism, fairness, tolerance, and what have you, but I think it describes a more militant, abrasive, and downright mean-spirited minority within the social justice crowd.
To put it another way: Social Justice Warriors are to Social Justice as PETA is to animal rights activists.
I’d say Willis more a Social Justice Bard or Social Justice Cartoonist.
I’ve seen some pretty deadly bards in fiction. Now I’ve got a mental image of David Willis bludgeoning a sucker unconscious with a lute, and it is pretty damned amazing.
Except that when using that meaning, “SJWs” are far less common than PETA members. Basically, it was adopted as a sarcastic term by people too lazy to make an actual case against various branches of left-wing activism. I’d compare it more to “militant activist” or “feminazi” in terms of validity, at least at the origins. Of course, the internet being what it is, some folks interested in Social Justice causes decided that being an “SJW” sounded kind of cool, and thus started using the phrase unironically, which just shows how weaksauce the whole thing really was.
Yeah, my mind was boggled when I first realized that “social justice warrior” started out as an insult. I mean, it’s not even “I dislike people who are less douchey than I am, so I will use their label of choice against them”. It’s “I dislike people who are less douchey than I am, so I will invent a label to describe them as totally awesome people”.
SPOILER ALERT – Jesus comes back in the final issue. Then things get really weird – there’s a seven-headed beast with ten crowns and a whore of Babylon and seals and trumpets.
I don’t know what the author was on, but I want some.
That’s the issue with a lot of people. They think they understand issues that they aren’t part of, and thus that their opinions are the most important. Way to go Leslie for handling things right.
So right. I have a friend who is really set on the idea that LGBT organizations/talks/other forms of relating experiences are a segregation of us people from the rest of society and is adamant that this hurts our position in seeking equality. He is also believes that we are not a victimized group just because NOT EVERY LGBT+ person has been one.
This sort of opens up an interesting question, though: as LGBT people become more accepted and better represented in modern society, will organizations and culture centered exclusively on them be necessary any more?
I think there will still be a place for them for some time to come if only because, no matter how accepting society at large grows, there are still issues, feelings, ideas, etc., that are more easily understood by people going through the same thing.
I have no inclination to damn Willis over this. I don’t agree with the hovertext (I don’t think him being a straight male affects the message in the least – it’s possible to actually listen and learn and THEN educate others, which he seems to have done, unlike Roz) but definitely not going to throw out a “damn u willis” over it. ^^;
I do want to apologize, though. I just caught up on my Twitter feed after seeing Crazy Dina’s post about Twitter, and I feel like I’m kinda the one that started the over-use of “bongo” and the GG-talk-bait in the comments. .___. Feminists don’t like me for a reason, after all. .____.
Once again, Just because Leslie is right doesn’t mean Roz doesn’t have a point. Once again, Just because Roz has a point doesn’t mean she’s being an asshole and could have delivered her point in a more constructive way.
Google is telling me it means either “young mind fuck” or “your mom’s face,” but neither make sense to me in this context? I’m kind of lost, too. 🙁 (However, I am out of college and I’ve all but quit Tumblr, so anything more recent than a couple of years ago is probably outside my radar.)
Because I don’t need another time suck. Not that it would make much difference I guess, but I REALLY need to focus on homework (Ha – like that’s working!)
Ah, cishets…y’all can be awesome sometimes, but a lot of y’all need to learn when to shut up and listen when LGBT people are talking about LGBT issues.
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*Leslie looks around and sees only Joe left*
“…FINE. SCISSORING. DISCUSS.”
“YESSSSSSS”
There’s a bunch of nameless extras too, but let’s be honest, they don’t count.
Does ‘Jesus’ count as a nobody or did Sal’s hair already consume him?”
Well, you know what they say “Hair today, gone tomorrow.”
heh! 😀
Unfortunately, I know that particular saying all too well…
(starting to go bald when I was still in school sucked)
Sounds like a hair-razing experience … sorry?
So did your hair just fall off your head or did it fall though your ears and nose?
It just started falling off my head. At the age of 13 I had brown hair all the way down to my shoulders. One haircut (and year) later ‘cos everyone was telling me it was too long and messy, and it never grew back; but instead my hairline began receding and getting thinner…and it never stopped.
a-The-the-the-THAT’S ALL FOLKS!
Wait, Jesus has appeared in that class? If so, can someone link it? I’ve missed Historical Jesus.
Willis has said he didn’t draw Historical Jesus, but there is a slight chance of a subconscious rendering.
Dude, Jesus is a common name, I don’t see why we couldn’t have ol’ Bibli-J on the cast list
I’m guessing no since I don’t see him on the tag list…
They all were here for Scissoring too.
They’ve actually been doing it while the main characters were distracted by the drama. Yes, even the guys.
They came here for scissoring, BY GOD THEY WILL ALL HAVE IT.
“Well, I’ve always been what you would call a visual learner, so…”
“Okay, we’re not going to discuss scissoring any more.”
“Moving on… ‘rocking’ and ‘papering’…”
Never underestimate the power of rock! 😛
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RChD6LXhPkU
Niiice, if I ever get bored with my Badass Theme, I might just use that one… *Walks off slo-mo style, beat-boxing a deep bass “Ksha, ksha sha…”*
“Oh, I already know about ‘rocking.'” *waggles eyebrows*
Yes, Joe is quote familiar with “rocking”. Mike taught him everything he knows.
**reads comment**
**makes a “rock” symbol with hand**
**looks at own fist, then at Jen Aside, then back at own fist**
You know, “rocking” is already a move in the lesbian playbook. It has a different name though. Just sayin’.
It’s a trick play in several other playbooks, too.
Then what… what would papering be?
Is it spanking!??? *spongebob joy face*
No, this is Patrick.
BEST COMMENT IN THREE DAYS!!!
(So I’m easily amused. Sue me)
Moving on to suing…
…I can totally see that happening. Leslie could use the comedy relief right about now.
Way back in the day, I was taking a “Psychology of Deviant Sexuality” class (oh and boy was it eye-opening….), and one of the topics was urban sexual subcultures — and that brought up fisting.
At that point, this little blond girl — perfect cheerleader type but quite petite, with innocent sky-blue eyes, perfect blond curls, you get the picture — who had been sort of goofing off towards the back of the class popped awake and blurted out, “Oh, I have a video of that!”
So the class just…stopped… And we all stared at her…..
And she looked back at everybody, totally confused, and said “What? My MOTHER gave it to me!!”
….Um. yeah, really…my, my, that’s interesting…….
Wait …. No,DON’T LEAVE US HANGING!
Leslie: “Fine, you know what. Let’s talk about scissoring. Discuss.”
Joe: “While scissoring is not unheard of it is much less common in real life than in lesbian porn because it’s very visually appealing but not very effective to get a lady off, demonstrating the difference between the sex we see in movies and real happy sexy fun time”
Other students: …
Joe: “What? You don’t think I know sex?”
And Leslie continues to prove to be the best teacher at the school.
Probably the best teacher in every school.
Not much competition. We’ve only seen two others.
I’d argue Penny is giving her a run for her money.
Popular is not the same as good.
Yet they are easily confused
Penny is more of an ‘on-hands’ kind of teacher.
That’s not what they mean by “lay-on-hands.”
But I’ll allow it!
If that was how your teachers were teaching then somebody should be spanked. Er, non-erotically.
Non-erotically. Sure, whatever you say. Those moans are of pain, yep yep. Oh, hey, I guess I did bring my flogger with me…
*follows link, read article, pokes net for videos* OK, that would be an interesting teaching method.
“You SHALL be taught!! Inna the name of GODda, Let us sharera the info…”
“Um, 1, this is weird. And 2, I don’t think the whole class putting their hands on my head because I got the lowest test score is gonna work…”
“Not if you don’t BELIEVEvah…”
Banging your students is generally not considered a good trait for a teacher.
unless you are specifically passing down the mantle of “harlot”
Shots fired
God did it.
Wait a second… God never married a single one of the people he… That father of a bongo! (Technically right any way you turn it, because God would be technically everyone’s father under the presumptions of this post)
Even without the Virgin births, he has yet to marry a single one of the women on earth who have children who are considered his! Why that is coming out here… probably has to do with the it that God did.
But that was artificial insemination.
As opposed to Zeus who just banged anything he could get his hands on.
Soo… How is cloning an act against God?
I don’t recall anything in the text that excluded the idea that his physical disembodied dong appeared under her robes and did the deed.
God is the dildo deity
That would explain the insistence of God being male.
It’s generally thought that the Holy Spirit visited Mary, at least in the Middle Ages.
In the interest of accuracy, Penny and Jason are teacher’s aides, not teachers.
Technically, teaching assistants. It’s likely, given her age, that Leslie is also a TA.
Or an “Instructor”, which in some larger colleges just means you’re and underpaid teacher that can be fired at anytime, don’t write research grants, and are generally the whipping post of the department.
We don’t know her age though, and it’s hard to tell with comic characters. She could be in her 30’s for all we know.
Willis has said that Les is 25.
WHEN DID HE SAY THAT? WHERE DO I GO TO HEAR WILLIS SAY THINGS?
conventions?
Leslie doesn’t seem to be under any other professor or instructor though. It seems like this is really her class, whereas with Jason, we’ve seen him answering to a professor.
Senior grad students also teach their own courses if they’re sufficiently experienced.
I guess it depends on the school and department, because we sure don’t get to. :<
When I was in grad school (in English) my official title was Graduate Assistant but I was the instructor of record for the courses I taught.
Okay first of all she’s just assuming Roz is straight. She doesn’t know that for sure and considering she’s the adult here she should know better than to make those kinds of assumptions. Roz’s reaction to this whole thing strikes me as the result of something more personal than we’re aware of yet and she should also know better than to tell her student to shut up how ever frustrated she might be because again she’s the grown up here and Roz is an emotional teenager. I get Leslie’s frustration I do. But she should apologize to Roz and maybe try to have an actual conversation with her in private about just why she’s so upset about all this besides what she’s already said.
Really? Because it strikes me as the reaction of an entitled brat who thinks they know far more about the world than they actually do.
More like an entitled brat who thinks she’s Gren Brady being outshined by her perfect little sister Marsha (Joyce, and previously, Robin) and Mom and Dad (Leslie) and all the other kids (Dorothy and everyone else) all are going ‘Marsha, Marsha, Marsha! We love Marsha!” and it’s just NOT FAIR…
…who the hell is Gren Brady?!
Greg Brady.
Embarrassing memory slip. Her name was actually Jan Brady, correct? Sorry about the mix-up.
Only a minor correction….Marcia was the oldest Brady daughter. Jan was her younger sister 🙂
Which has been my take on most of her screentime. I’ve had to walk it back a bit as someone (I’m sorry, I don’t remember the name) reminded me she has done more than just pass out condoms and make a sex tape, but her motivation really seems to be based on thinking she already knows more about sex than everyone else and everyone should follow her lead.
#whiteknighting
This phrase needs to kill itself.
I concur.
Yeah, in this case I’m pretty sure that’s 100% correct.
I don’t like Roz. She is really super judgmental and prejudiced; it’s just not about the more usual homophobia or slut-shaming. But both here and in Shortpacked!, she really doesn’t give a damn about how her actions impact anyone else; it doesn’t hurt her, which means it doesn’t hurt anyone. Probably not fair to bring in her attitude towards Jacob’s sex addiction in Shortpacked! (“that’s not a thing and if you apparently want to bang me I will bang you even if you specifically ask me to stop it”–which I’m pretty sure is rape) but we’ve seen more of her there. Here, she just assumes that she holds 100% of all knowledge about sexuality and gender; and that her position on anything related is 100% correct.
Frankly, her and Mary are a pair; they’re opposite sides of the same damned coin.
I wonder how she’d react if she ever ran into an asexual person?
I agree that Roz has an awful attitude in this class, and the strip you linked has always bothered me. I also wouldn’t be surprised if this is part of why Leslie came down on her so hard–students like that can really screw up the class dynamic.
However, in fairness, Roz is fine with asexuality.
Awww I miss Riley. She’s the nice Desanto, but maybe that’s because we don’t see her often.
Exactly. I agree with this 100% and I’m glad other people are seeing it too.
You really think Roz is the type to hold back discussions of… Anything in class?
Because she clearly hasn’t in this strip.
Anything about herself*, in particular.
*Also also*
To quote Willis below:
“You’ve claimed it twice on this page already, but you are mistaken. Roz has stated she is straight in the webcomic itself, in class in the presence of Leslie. It was a few years ago in real-time, so it’s forgiveable to have forgotten, but it’s important to squash the false assertion before discussion runs with it.”
Additionally one could say that though she leans straight she may be willing to participate in threesomes or other types of sex. Again all the while more likely to go for male partners if thing ever got serious outside of sex. Or in other words she may be down for experimenting .
Roz has supplied video proof of her being straight, remember? http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/stare/
On the internet and everything. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/judge/
I think Roz is straight too, but having sex with a guy doesn’t make her straight… There’s other sexualities other than homosexual and heterosexual
Having sex with a guy didn’t make Leslie straight either. People don’t always figure it out before they start.
This is very true as well.
Just because you like one flavor of genitalia doesn’t mean you can’t like all the other varieties life has to offer
If genitalia followed the rule of Baskin Robbins we wouldn’t have so much hatred in the world.
There’s a flavor for almost everyone!
“COOKIES-N’-CREME FOREVER.
SUFFER AND DIE, INFERIOR ROCKY-ROAD FILTH!”
She’s definitely attracted to males, but that doesn’t say anything about her attraction to females. She could be bi.
Willis himself said Roz is straight so there is that.
Becky says this bi stuff is just crazy talk.
From Robin’s visit to the class:
“You drag me there and I’ll start kissing girls on stage.”
“So, what, you’ve decided you’re GAY now, too?”
“Nope. Just really good at getting out of shit I don’t wanna do.”
Leslie shouldn’t apologize for shit.
From what I’ve picked up on how 4-Year Universities work, Leslie has been practically coddling Roz. She clearly feels mistreated for being squelched, that’s believable, but there’s plenty of professors who’d made her feel a lot worse to keep her from disrupting the class AND would’ve been well within their authority to do so. Leslie is neither her mother nor a close friend. So, yes, she shouldn’t apologize for shit.
Thank you!
Yes. Unless it’s an emergency, thou shalt not disrupt thy class.
And one needs to learn how to hold a calm, intelligent conversation and not attack people in academic setting
A-fucking-men.
They’re in a class basically revolving around the topic of sexuality, is it not plausible that Roz being straight was not established in an earlier class discussion? And as far as her reactions, yes, it is less than professional, but this was a bit of an extenuating circumstance. Does that give her a pass for telling a student to shut up? No. But we should also consider that this is a human being not a teacher-bot, and one with a lot of personal investment in the topic to boot.
Pedantically, but importantly, this is not a class that revolves around sexuality. This is a class that revolves around “Gender”, and there is a lot more to gender than sex or sexuality. Gender and assigned/perceived gender affect all aspects of society. Bedroom or fantasy behavior are only a tiny fraction of the life of a person.
Notice that Leslie only came out to the class two strips ago when she was talking about how her own experience of the social construction of gender affected life on the street.
Pretty sure it was stated that Leslie is not straight. Very early on in the strip.
Heavily implied, but not stated (saying “we’re all lesbians here” doesn’t count).
The fact that Roz didn’t counter Leslie’s assumption with bisexual suggests that Leslie was right in this instance.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/out/
I realize word of god has confirmed otherwise, but I never read that as “I am categorically heterosexual”.
I’m assuming the very first question they’d been asked in the gender studies class was what their sexual orientation is knowing Leslie. From what happened with Joe, that’s what they have to judge with, and unless she’s keeping it internal, Roz’ openly known orientation is most likely heterosexual. Just because it isn’t said in the comic doesn’t mean it hasn’t at all – Easter hasn’t happened in the comic either so I guess it doesn’t exist in this universe.
Ignore this first post it posted early woops.
It would be grossly inappropriate for a teacher to EVER ask what their students’ sexual orientations were. I SUPER DOUBT Leslie would ask that kind of question, given that being in the closet can be a matter of personal safety.
Well … I’m sure she wouldn’t ask them to tell her. On the other hand, she might well ask them to consider the question privately, as well as the question of their gender. However, I think it’s more likely she would ask them as those subjects came up in class, rather than all at once at the beginning.
Considering she’s only just come out to the class, I doubt that would be true, since she’d be unlikely to ask the students their orientation without revealing her own.
Also asking people to out themselves on the first day of class (or any time, really) is pretty skeevy.
This comic so far has only covered September and maybe some days of October, so Easter not happening yet is not surprising at all.
Actually its a pretty good assumption that Leslie knows Roz is straight.
First of all, she knew about Roz’s sex tape (so she knows she likes guys). Secondly, Leslie was in the class when Roz said she wasn’t into girls but would kiss them to get out of doing things with her sister. (Ok, technically she said she wasn’t gay, which could mean she’s bisexual, but the way the comic was worded it was clear she wasn’t into women at all.)
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/out/
And Segnosaur wins the prize for DOA research 🙂
Actually I think I was beaten to it by a couple of posters.
I’m assuming the very first question they’d been asked in the gender studies class was what their sexual orientation is knowing Leslie. From what happened with Joe, that’s what they have to judge with, and unless she’s keeping it internal, Roz’ openly known orientation is most likely heterosexual. Just because it isn’t said in the comic doesn’t mean it hasn’t at all – Easter hasn’t happened in the comic either so I guess it doesn’t exist in this universe.
Other than the factual parts though, I somewhat agree with your sentiment but I feel both are in the wrong in some ways. I picked up on the possible foreshadowing of something personal thing too tho.
I’m assuming the very first question they’d been asked in the gender studies class was what their sexual orientation is knowing Leslie.
I really hope not. If Leslie is a remotely responsible teacher, ESPECIALLY given her subject matter, she should know that orientation is a very personal matter and it would be individual students’ private decisions to share them with the class. Maybe it would be something along the lines of a catchall “If there’s anything else you want to tell me that would inform the direction of this course, tell me here” on a survey, but just asking it outright like “Name, email address, sexual orientation” would be highly inappropriate.
Her first question was “So, why are we all here in gender studies?“
“Why are you taking this class/what do you hope to get out of it” is not remotely the same thing as “What genders are you attracted to?” though.
And her “we’re all lesbians here” was a joke, not a statement of fact backed by a poll.
First of all, Leslie was right there when Roz said she wasn’t gay back during the sex-tape drama. So if Leslie is “assuming” anything, she’s assuming that Roz isn’t closeted.
Second, Leslie probably should have a conversation with Roz, but because Roz is consistently being a disruption in class and making a hostile environment with other students. Throw in the contempt Roz has shown towards the class (“I could probably teach it” ring a bell?) and yeah, Leslie needs to have a chat with Roz. Probably not the heart-to-heart you have in mind though.
My thoughts exactly.
I think the vitriol of her reaction probably has more to do with her sister.
We know from Shortpacked! that Robin isn’t straight, and we know from DoA that she is advocating political positions probably in line with the positions Joyce was raised in. In a conversation with Leslie, she referred to it as ‘pandering’, indicating that she feels the positions aren’t how Robin always thought. We don’t really have any information on their parents’ political views, aside from personal opposition to birth control (according to Roz in an arguably hyperbolic statement, so some grains of salt with that). It’s also possible that Roz knows her sister’s sexuality, given that she contemplates trying to set her up with Leslie.
Tl;dr, it’s very possible and unsurprising for Roz to be touchy about this issue because of her experiences with her sister without being anything but straight herself.
Actually, in Shortpacked, Robin never, even after marrying leslie, admits to being anything other than “Straight with an exception.”
Actually, that’s false.
SP! Robin is “Sort of generically queer”
http://www.shortpacked.com/index.php?id=1994
“Roz is straight” is not entirely a baseless assumption since it’s widely known throughout the school that Roz slept with Joe. Now true, Roz could be bisexual or pansexual, just sayin that Leslie has some basis for the straight assumption.
I’m guessing Leslie and Roz will have a good talk once their passions cool.
Leslie still needs Roz to get to Robin, after all.
(a) Not true, she’s perfectly capable of contacting Robin on her own. (b) As if Leslie would give any weight to such a consideration.
In fairness, she has video proof of at least straight relations.
Didn’t she joke about becoming a lesbian to mess with her sister at some point?
Actually, look when Robin was in the class, she specifically denied it. (She was threatening to kiss other girls in an attempt to get out of appearing with Robin.)
They are both supposed to be grown ups, this is college, not high school.
Roz may be less experienced at being an adult, but honestly, she is at an age where she should know better than to harrass other people and she has been repeatedly told to LEAVE the classroom by Leslie which would have allowed them to discuss it in private or deal with it outside the classroom.
Leslie’s job is to pass on the message of her lessons and help her students grow as people, not to spend half her lesson arguing with someone who does not know when to stop talking.
She’d told Roz to stop preaching counterproductive messages in her class.
Roz didn’t stop.
She told her the point of the class and that her behaviour was out of line.
AND ROZ DID THE EXACT THING SHE HERSELF WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT.
Leslie wasn’t screaming ‘shut up’ at her, she was telling her to stop harassing another student, to stop discussing their previous personal beliefs, to stop her behaviour, and the only way to actually stop her due to her stubbornness was to make a point to Roz that she was being a hypocrite for shouting over her.
And I think that she has said to Leslie that she doesn’t swing that way in a previous strip but I don’t remember for sure – and that is not nearly as important as the fact that Roz was still doing the wrong thing and needed called out on it or she would have just continued ranting about Joyce.
What other option did Leslie actually honestly have here? Listen to Roz ranting for the rest of the class about another student? Openly asking her what her real issue is in the middle of class? Forcibly dragging her out?
The first two of which would have been tolerating harassment/harassment itself by possibly embarrassing her and the last one is actually illegal (it can be classed as assault).
Her only CLEAR choices were to call out Roz on her hypocrisy to get her to stop, allow her to continue acting as if she was a justified crusader by condemning Joyce for her past beliefs, or leave her to it and get another staff member but what else could they do besides what she had already done?
Leslie did the best to diffuse the situation she could, but Roz is an overly stubborn opinionated person, she wasn’t going to leave or give in until she got all her opinion out there or until she was outright shut down.
This is the same basic gist as what I was thinking about the situation. These people are COLLEGE students. They are expected to act like adults.
They’re also expected to learn to Cope with Professors who Don’t act like Adults. Such BOHICA-ness Prepares Them for the Above-Minimum-Wage Paying Jobs 4-Year Colleges exist in the first place to Train you for, as it’s always Probable your Career is going to be Full of More of the Same.
+1
Yup Leslie did the best thing here that she could’ve done. I don’t understand how people think Leslie is doing the wrong thing here by diffusing the situation instead of talking it out with Roz. Talking it out is something they would need to do later in private as it’s not going to be at all productive to the class. Plus it means by then Roz would have calmed down and be able to think/speak more rationally and see both sides without just being angry.
Plus, for those who are thinking that Roz could be bi or pan or whatever, I think it’s quite fair for Leslie to assume she’s straight. For one, the sex tape – and also when she threatened to kiss girls to ruin Robin’s campaign, the way she spoke then did not seem to indicate any sort of bisexuality at all really.
tl;dr: Leslie’s awesome + I think Roz is straight
yes yes yes!
I agree.
I for one, if I was at college and taking a class that I had paid to attend, would be really fucking irritated if Leslie had put the entire lesson for the day on hold to hold a heart-to-heart with the student who was actively disrupting the class and preventing the lesson from continuing.
As I said above, Roz is only concerned about how her actions impact herself; she doesn’t give a damn about anyone else’s concerns, or even consider them legitimate.
Agreed, although depending on how petty Roz is she could probably try to hit Leslie with a Title IX violation. I don’t think it would stick, but I’ve had friends who have discussed sex in class and gotten hit with the Title IX stick because a student didn’t like their grade and decided the sex talk meant they could get back at their professor.
“Okay first of all she’s just assuming Roz is straight” Uh, except in Roz case, it’s more than assuming. You might have forgotten Roze had no problem recording her sexual activities and putting them online for everyone at school (and anywhere else) to see. Roze has no shame over her sexuality and if she was into women too, it would have definitely been part of the show.
Concluding that Roze is straight is not jumping on conclusion, at this point.
Hoo yeah. No doubt
Professor* 😀
teachers would never identify them selves as a girl to young students unless they want a gift. i would know i have studied them all my life
Leslie is Willis’ greatest character.
Why is she only getting 2% in the poll to the right?
There’s a diff between “greatest” and “fave” =p
Maybe because she’s barely in Dumbing of Age? I don’t see that changing as she was a principle character in Shortpacked for years, she’s kinda due a bit of a rest.
I do wonder what would have happened if the poll came out tonight instead. I dont’ think she’d take the top, but she’d probably clear the bottom 25%. I know I like her more now, but already voted, so…
It’s okay. Leslie always wins the patreon bonus polls.
why is dina in the lead and not walky is a better question
She’s more interesting. Walky is a little boring, in all honesty.
shes not interesting she’s me trying to socialize with my attractive extended family
Lord, let me let you in on a little secret. For all you fail to see on the surface, there’s a world of, well, that depends on the person. She probably has a lot of dinosaur stuff in there. Aspies minds are rarely quiet, even if their body may be holding still. And without social skills, that brain power goes to something often considered less interesting to the general populace. But I can assure you, Dina is running in the background.
Also, your world is LOUD. And hard at times. Sometimes we need to block it out, hence Dina’s being behind doors all the time in the beginning. But as time goes on, Dina will become more and more comfortable socializing with others and sharing more of her thoughts, often joining others in their strange activities, including beach trips and shopping.
Because Walky has already had his time in the sun?
“You smacked me down so hard I’m going to pout and leave!”
Don’t smack the bongos, Leslie!
(ok that’ll be my first and only bongo joke i promise)
Is there somewhere I can go to place bets on whether that becomes the fandom’s next comment feed joke?
There was, but it had to shut down because there were no counter-bets and a 100% chance of payoff.
What, you mean like “Mike smacked the bingo with a femur in the FAAACE for a nickel”?
Roz is straight?
I could have sworn she was pan.
There’s a good chance Leslie’s assuming she’s straight without asking, or that Roz hasn’t explored tastes yet, or that she is in fact straight.
Well, Roz publicly announced, in that same class, that she wasn’t gay back during the sex-tape drama. So even if Roz isn’t straight, it’s her own fault if Leslie has the wrong idea because Roz is the one that said it.
Or, to put it another way… sometimes people are wrong about their own sexuality. But you should still respect how they identify, even if you think they’re wrong.
Did she say she’s not gay, or that she didn’t feel an attraction to her own gender? Unless it’s the latter, Leslie should know better than to automatically assume it means Roz is straight.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/out/
Hmm.. implies general disinterest with her own gender but doesn’t say she’s straight either.
…dora’s box.
…corner. now!
The one labeled “Party Favors”?
Not pan, just horny. She’s only touched dudes as far as we know. She threatened to make out with girls, but she said she wasn’t gay, just doing it to cheese off her sister.
There’s never been any signs at all that pointed to her wanting to be with girls romantically or sexually, she’s only shown any interest in guys. She once even said she wasn’t into girls, although she would kiss one if it could get her out of dealing with Robin, saying that is in no way an indication of actual attraction to girls though.
There’s never been any signs in the five minutes overall of screentime she’s had in this comic. Roz not being a main character means we don’t really know here that intimately. We don’t know a lot of what’s going on inside her head or what she’s feeling. But she strikes me as someone who screams so loud because she’s routinely been shut down. Something about this really has me thinking she’s motivated by her own personal “stuff” not just trying for some kind of..idk…ally bonus points or whatever the fuck people think she’s going for here.
I’m not one of the people who thinks Roz is just going for ally points, I’m just sure she’s straight. She very very strongly implied it and she knows enough about sexualities that she likely wouldn’t be too confused about it, and she’s also open enough about these things that I don’t think she’d lie either.
Okay so she is straight. Still though I feel like someone should just talk to the kid.
I feel that way about almost all of the characters in this comic. 🙂
I think just because Leslie is so far pretty much the only real adult in this comic I think I just expect more from her when it comes to these moments that require a bit more empathy.
And patience but yeah I do get that she’s human.
She’s still got a class to run.
I can understand that, ideally how would you have liked her to have handled the situation?
The issue is timing. Leslie would be well-served pulling her aside at some point in the future, but right now, Roz needed to be stopped, end of discussion (literally).
Honestly? I’m not really sure how this situation could have been handled much better because Roz was being difficult and disruptive and I do understand just how Leslie could get pushed to the point that she did. But I still feel like this was not the best way to handle the situation and there had to have been a better way even if I’m at a loss for how right at this second. Though others made suggestions further down where Leslie just stopped engaging with Roz to shut down the conversation. In the aftermath though I think Leslie should apologize to Roz because however understandable her reaction may have been that was not an appropriate way to address a student. After that I think I’d just like for her to try and get Roz to meet with her during her office hours to discuss if maybe there’s more going on with Roz than just anger at Joyce.
It would be interesting to see Leslie do that, I could see it happening, as you and a couple of other people have said it wasn’t really the ideal reaction from a teaching perspective. And learning more about Roz’ motives would be nice, so far she’s had a bit of bad luck with the situations she’s ended up in as a characer, and I hope we’ll get to understand her more in the future.
Frankly, it’s not Leslie’s job to be a counselor, nor is it the job of any teacher — although we as a society expect that of them on top of all the other thankless tasks we pile onto them. Schools have trained counselors and counseling services for that. It’s her job to teach her class. She can recommend Roz see a counsellor, and she can flag her for an academic advisor, but she herself should not be acting as a counselor.
Like Plasma Mongoose pointed out, the fact that she didn’t counter Leslie’s assumption (although it might have been brought up in class off-screen) implies that she’s straight.
And Willis confirmed Roz’s straightness, so there is that.
Also: Word of God.
Willis disagrees downpage.
Yeah I just saw.
AND LESLIE DROPS THE MIC!
Hell with the mic, Leslie just dropped the whole sound system.
That is an INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS and IRRESPONSIBLE thing to do! Those sound systems are really heavy!
Not to mention all the paperwork you’d have to fill out if someone gets hurt! It’s reams, I tell you! REAMS!
And do you KNOW how much those things cost? A small fortune!
Roz to Leslie: “I’m more righteous than her!”
Leslie to Roz: “I know what you did last Dumber!”
….
*flees for dear not-quite-punning title-mangling life*
Roz is leaving to go check on her privilege. Yup, still where she left it.
Or she could have just gone to http://www.checkmyprivilege.com/ on her smartphone instead.
Real site that I want to check out, or something you just made up?
Real site, my score was: Your privilege level is Extremely Oppressed with a score of -635
According to the site, I hit “Shitlord” level. That’s not actually as descriptive as they might think…
HIGH FIVE FELLOW SHITLOARD!
“You are the lo-sers, and WE ARE THE SHIT-LORDS . . . OF THE WORLD!”
SHITLORDS LISTEN TO QUEEN! YEAHHHHHHHH
I guess I too am a shitlord, but I expected as much. I am a college educated white straight male after all.
“Social Autism”? Is that like Aspergrs? I’m going to assume it is.
Also, this test was SOOOO made for adults, not students.
But I got privileged with a score of 50.
I got “Disadvantaged” at -40
Real site, but it counts me as “extremely oppressed” so I’d say it’s not very accurate.
It’s partially to wake people up, but a lot of the assumptions lead to furthering the victim society. (ie… just because you fit into a certain demographic, you immediately have to be oppressed)
Seriously, I got a score of 20. Why? Because I’m overweight and middle class. This is the worst way to go about trying to show people how others have to overcome things. Any time you judge someone because they’re in group X (or Y, or Z, or whatever), you’re doing it wrong. Yeah… I know that there are many people who judge others by those groupings. It’s a collective fault of our society that it’s allowed. I don’t want to be that overweight white middle class guy to anyone. I want to be Robb.
Real site, but I refuse to take any site that lists that many forms of otherkin unironically in any serious manner and can’t assume it was ever meant as such. Though it did sign me up for the patriarchy. I was meaning to do that, so I’ll thank it there.
Right?
I think that was put in as a dead giveaway of how serious they are. These ‘tests’ can be quite fun. Here’s another: http://www.theinkblot.com
That was such a childish portion, that I just rolled my eyes and chose human.
Real site in the sense that it exists. But on top of the things people mention with the test, you can see the updates mention adding Canada due to “croaking of froggies” and an apology for diarrhea caused by using the word retard. So not real in the sense of anything serious.
Well, I got “Your privilege level is Extremely Oppressed with a score of -585.” Either it’s a troll site, or it was put together by the dumbest Tumblr SJW on the planet. :/
Upon revisiting us, it links us to Hawaiian shirts. IT LINKS US TO HAWAIIAN SHIRTS.
Hawaiian shirts are serious business.
The seriousist
I got a score of -20, despite being a tall, able bodied, white, cisgendered, male from an affluent household. This site isn’t worth crap.
But are you a human???
………none of your business………
They knoooooooows
I got SHITLORD with 115.
I guess being poor, overweight, and with no career isn’t enough to overcome my whiteness.
I pulled off a -360 with the same traits (plus straight male). Of course I’m also a cripple. That’s like mondo argument winning points there.’
Help Help, I’m being oppressed!
Don’t you love it how they unintentionally marginalize you with a negative score?(OK… I’m being an ass toward that site, but seriously, it was some dumb stuff)
Heh. I got a 180.
Maby Roz can learn from this
Not without someone smashing her over the head repeatedly, judging from how hard it was for Leslie to get her to sit down and shut up long enough to say her piece.
I don’t learn well or respond rationally on the occasions when I’m in the midst of losing my temper … so I’m not sure that judging Roz by her current behavior is any more reasonable than her ignorant condemnation of Joyce … I think it is much more important how Roz deals with having being confronted with her own shortcomings after she has had a chance to cool down …
Very good point. I don’t anger easily, but when I do, you can say goodbye to my rational self for the next hour or so.
So, you’re also part of the hold it in until you explode club?
I see you carried out your gravatar upgrade!
Sometimes things need to be held in until they explode, because the explosion is what is required. TNT or dynamite wouldn’t be much use if all it did was burn instead of blow up.
Wel, I was – until someone lit up a smoke at last year’s annual meeting. Now the club’s just a crater.
And yes, found one that I’m sticking with for now.
“Some days, you just can’t get rid of a drama-bomb”
somebody has to think about the inocent ducks, living their lives drama free.
Ducks are pretty oppressed, they have to worry about mating season when they are likely to be raped by a randy drake with a corkscrew cock.
the genitals of ducks… something I didn’t want to remember today D: or ever D:
Proof that it’s not all it’s quacked up to be.
I need psychiatric help after these cheesy comments… I’ll send you the bill.
Ahhhhh, that was fowl.
Now that the subject has been floated you can’t hope to duck it …
Sometimes feathers get ruffled.
True, that can be a real birden in a flap …
This reminds me of a song.
Oh, I was hoping that was a link to “March of the sinister ducks” by…I think Frank zappa?
I thought Roz was bi. Huh.
She might have said she was bi, but as far as anyone who has seen that video she made with Joe is likely to think, they will assume straightness until otherwise.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/out/
She doesn’t explicitly say she’s straight here, but it does imply that she doesn’t have much of an interest in girls.
Willis confirmed her as being straight.
Leslie is trying to Force Throttle Roz in panel three there, you just know it.
“Dangit, why aren’t my lesbian mind powers working…”
Silly Leslie Bean, it’s being Vegan that gives you awesome psychic powers.
+1 for the reference!
Well, being Vegan does mean you’re very good at empathic communication, anyway.
But lousy hunting skills…
Poor Leslie keeps forgetting to recharge your gay powers you have to get laid.
This storyline has been really interesting and well written+drawn. I like it a lot.
Also Leslie I always vote for you in my top three characters.
I agree, this storyline runs the gamut of feelings and everyone has opinions on it (as evidenced by the 1000+ comments the other day) and it’s created some interesting discussions. That’s the signs of great media content 🙂
Yes, definitely. I like how the storyline keeps having more and more perspectives you can consider when trying to understand the characters.
Gold star for Willis today – or rather whenever he actually wrote this.
Yeah, Les is also one of my fave characters. Leslie, we neeeeed you! And most of all all the other characters need you…
I wish we chould see the reactions of the other students in the class.
That might be scary. It’s possible some of them don’t have faces.
Everyone knows this engine clones extras from the named characters present, like cars in GTA. It’s an entire crowd of Joe.
OH GAD NO! I can’t determine in my mind where to put that on the scale: Epic or Horrifying!
Why? … after all its Roz and Leslie that have been having a face off … not the other students …
That’s because they’re the only ones with faces to off, obviously!
Possibly my reasoning is facile, but I’m going to assume you are being facetious 🙂
Stunned, probably. In a situation like that, you learn to shut up fast.
Hullo, Willis, I’d like to report A BURN
Thanks… now I have Ashton Kutcher in my head going “BURN!”
I blame you. I should NEVER have Ashton in my head… ever.
Well, dang.
Oh Snap! Burn!!…BURN!!!
Roz, being an ally doesn’t mean you get a pass for being an ass especially when that is directed at someone else who just now realizes the damage they’ve done and genuinely regrets it.
Leslie. Please continue being awesome.
Willis. Damn you.
As an aside (You’re 100% correct by the way), I hate the term ally. It implies that you have to agree with the general consensus of opinion on pretty much every issue, or you’re a “bad ally.” I’ve literally been called that. I responded that I don’t really consider myself an ally, but that I didn’t care what anyone else did with their bodies, and that I don’t want to put people in a box. If you’re a consenting adult (slight hypocrisy on my part, but I have to draw that line… whatever consenting adult actually means), you should be able to draw up a contract with another person or persons who are also consenting adults. The only thing the gub’mint should do is enforce that contract. Period, end of discussion. (I’m a voluntarist and have had plenty of arguments with gay men who are as totalitarian as the worst red neck bible thumper out there… just over different things. You either support freedom or you don’t IMHO. Strangely, the lesbians I’ve spoken to are a little more open minded as a rule. No idea if it’s just coincidence or a larger trend on the part of either the men or women.)
Sorry to get on the soapbox on you…
@Robbzilla.
While I do agree with your “bad ally” rant, and that it’s not necessarly because one agree with you on one cause that one agrees with everything you say, you said “You either support freedom or you don’t IMHO. ”
Things are quite a bit more complicated than that. Basically, a society is made by people who trade part of their individual liberties for security. And the cursor between “liberty” and “security” is much, much more vague than just “FULL FREEDOM”.
What if the other consenting adult tricked you in signing a contract with ill-written clauses? What about those too poor they’re forced to sign any contract whatsoever? What about protecting public goods, like the atmosphere?
It’s complicated.
I enjoy Roz’s shocked face. And also all her other faces. And also Leslie’s faces. And everyone’s faces. FAAACEEEES.
….. I just have a lot of feelings about faces.
Willis does have quite a talent for faces and expressions. It’s the difference between a good cartoonist and a great cartoonist.
Yes agreed 😀
You and Billie have something in common, then. “FAAACE!”
Also, I like how Leslie’s attempt to restore order is addressed to “everyone.” It’s like she’s peering over the fourth wall into the comments.
I know! Its even more impressive considering that these strips are written months in advance: Willis would have to anticipate the audience’s reaction. At the same time, the statement is also one the character would reasonably make, so its not technically breaking the fourth wall!
Willis has been doing this for years…he’s got plenty of experience to teach him which strips will become wanksplosions.
And even without all that experience, I doubt it would take much effort to predict a lot of heated discussion on those last few strips.
I still really like the effect, though.
Wanksplosion is an awesome word and I commend you for making/using it.
I actually have no idea any more if I coined it or not…I’ve been using it for ages, and have forgotten the origin…
Buttt, Willis was redrawing strips earlier today. Maybe this was one of them. Maybe he addressed the text to us. Maybe… MUAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.
Okay, so I didn’t get in my daily allotment of social interaction, so All Hail is kinda going nuts in here.
Aaaand she’s back in. *sigh* that was refreshing.
This is a tangled web of thoughts and feels you woven Willis. (Must not get caught in it.)
Thank God, I was worried Leslie would just let it slide.
<>
Whoops, that was weird.
Applause. Nothing but applause for Les’.
I kinda understand why Roz is annoyed. She’s got way too much experience with hypocritical christians.
Absolutely. But I find it really bizarre that, before anyone else reacted, she jumped on Joyce, and is now attempting to defend herself by saying that Joyce was being given a pass on her previous ignorance.
She’s basically going ‘I WAS IN THIS POSITION FIRST AND I’M NOT SHARING IT WITH SOMEONE WAS WRONG BEFORE’. :/
Absolutely- she started going on about people praising Joyce before anyone else had a chance to speak either way! I can kind of see where Roz is coming from, like she’d imagined people praising Joyce and gone ballistic at the thought of it. Still, when your enemies finally start seeing things your way, an exasperated “Well, thank you!” might be better.
I was one of the most aggressive posters two days ago against Roz. And I didn’t really change my negative view of her until someone pointed out that she’s spent the last 4-5 weeks with Mary as a roommate.
And then let’s not forget she grew up with her nice congresswoman sister… I don’t know if her parents are as, erm, “enlightened” as Robin, but the part of Indiana she grew up in apparently is. I guess that ought to have paved the way for this sort of insensitive anger
Roz, this storyline has really been showing off your capacity to be a freestanding asshole.
She’s been nothing except an angry and sometimes condescending bongo in this universe.
Bongo? Not the B-word I originally called her… Bad Robb! Bad!
And Leslie addressed the elephant in the room and also told it to piss off out of her class…….Original Badass here.
It’d be nice if she… well, both of them came to next week’s session, tho.
Well, really I learned about intersectionality from a comic written by a straight cis white dude where a Latino Lesbian tells a white Lesbian she doesn’t have the same life experiences.
Gotham Central – Half a Life by Greg Rucka…
And I’m a bi trans woman… So, what I’m saying is… good job!
Yeah I’m sorry but I am not impressed with Leslie here. She doesn’t know for sure what Roz’s sexuality is so it’s not her place to label her and however frustrated she may be something about how she shut Roz down her just rubs me the wrong way. I’m not saying Leslie isn’t justified in her frustration I just don;t believe she handled this situation as well as she could have at all.
I believe that, in the comic where Roz’s sister visits Leslie’s class, Roz states that she would kiss girls on stage, but not because she likes them, in front of Leslie. Also, taking statistics into account, it was a reasonable assumption.
Still though. Roz saying things like that doesn’t mean she’s actually straight. We don’t now her history. We don’t know everything that’s motivating her rage in this moment and neither does Leslie. I get that Roz was being disruptive and I get that Leslie was frustrated but I still feel like Leslie handled this situation poorly. Instead of basically telling Roz to sit down and shut up however justified that may seem to others I think asking Roz to meet her alone to find out just where the hell all this anger is coming from (besides what we already know) might have been a better tactic. I just feel like there’s more going on here than what we’re seeing because human beings (and these characters) tend to be complicated but everyone’s too busy wanting to get away from Roz as soon as possible because her personality can be grating. Which come on she’s 18.
I agree. Leslie’s reaction is understandable, and would be a perfectly fine way to end a discussion between equals. But she is Roz teacher. She could have handled it better.
That’s pretty much all I’m saying.
You should trust what someone says what they choose identify as, though. (To make it clear who you are attracted to isn’t a choice, but which terms you choose to use for yourself can be.) So treating Roz as straight because that is what she’s claimed in this group isn’t wrong.
I don’t think, though, that Leslie was out of line in the least bit. Roz being thrown out of the class is quite appropriate at this point. She was not rude to Roz either the way Roz was being rude to the entire class.
At least from my college experience, I’d wager Roz might be asked to come to Leslie’s office for a discussion after this.
You’ve claimed it twice on this page already, but you are mistaken. Roz has stated she is straight in the webcomic itself, in class in the presence of Leslie. It was a few years ago in real-time, so it’s forgiveable to have forgotten, but it’s important to squash the false assertion before discussion runs with it.
Unfortunately, if my experience with comment sections is anything to go on, they’ll probably run with it anyway.
People still talk about a worldwide flood as if one actually happened despite centuries of disproof, after all.
Actually, speaking as a “devout” Atheist/Secular-Humanist, there is a helluva-lotta evidence that suggest a massive flooding may have happened at roughly the window in time it was said to have happened according to most Middle Eastern/Asia Minor religions.
Was a guy names Moses, who was made an ageless demi-immortal prophet, involved? Did it actually rain for 40 days? Was literally the entire world flooded? Probably not.
Could a massive earthquake occurred at some point on the opposite side of the globe and created a tsunami that flooded the entire Mediterranean? Could a massive undersea volcano have erupted, unbeknownst to anyone? Could natural changes in weather patterns have resulted in a series of freak storms that resulted in torrential flooding? We just don’t know. Honestly, any of those three are actually reasonable and realistic possibilities.
What we do know is that numerous religions from that region speak of massive flooding happening in similar windows of time.
When choosing to be a sophomoric ass who feels the need to “disprove” religion, it helps to know a little bit about history and anthropology for a couple of reasons. One, it helps you make a valid argument. Two, it makes it you sound a little bit less dickish.
I am just going to add here that while you or I may not believe in the letter of the Bible or any other book of faith, they still serve a purpose as historical works. They reference many events that we know for a fact happened, and document how these events were perceived by people living in those times. Some events are purely parable in nature, but others are parables dramatized from actual events. When you have numerous works of such a nature stating that a similar sounding event occurred at a similar point of time, it is quite possible that something similar to those events may have occurred relatively near that point in time.
Um… It was Noah, not Moses. Also, there was a poster on this very site who linked to or mentioned archaeological evidence for the “Biblical Flood”. (And I don’t mean those mountain top ocean fossils, I mean actual villages of a seaside nature several miles above the current shoreline, at several levels) (Also, I’m agnostic leaning atheist, and dislike religion)
I try to pick my words carefully. When I say “worldwide flood”, I do mean worldwide. Geological evidence disproving a worldwide flood has been known for centuries. Yet not everyone has gotten the message yet.
You may be right about me being a dick, but I stand behind my argument. As for disproving religion, I don’t really feel the need. It’s myths being passed off as scientific facts that I dislike.
Something I forgot to add: I have personally seen a theology professor (and Episcopal priest) try to persuade a few reluctant students in a class that geology does not support there ever being a worldwide flood.
The best suggestion I’ve ever heard for where the Flood legends came from is the “Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis” – a massive overflow from the Mediterranean that suddenly expanded the Black Sea 7,000 years ago. If this actually happened, it’s something early Eurasian civilizations would’ve remembered. So, “worldwide” only in its cultural influence!
Oh, okay, sorry.
The Word of Willis has spoken:
ROZ IS STRAIGHT!
ALL HAIL THE GREAT AND POWERFUL WILLIS
Glory to him and the comments he hath spake!
I’ll get the bongos. ^.^ I hear their great at parties! (Try figuring that one out!)
Let us offer toys and bongos in tribute.
The comic in question, I believe: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/out/
I feel the second panel is also highly relevant to today’s strip.
Oh, yeah. Good thinking!
Aaaaand the power of well rounded, consistent but flawed characters strikes again! Well played Willis, well played
Oh? I had forgotten about that.
Not gay does not mean straight. Hell, not attracted to the same sex doesn’t even mean straight. I mean I 100% accept Word of God that she is straight but there’s nothing within the comic itself that says that unambiguously.
Not gay doesn’t mean straight, but in the context of the conversation, Roz denied being gay as a way to say she wasn’t interested in girls. There are characters and situations where that exchange might have been an exact-words-y way to not admit to being bi, but I can’t believe that Roz would bother. She would have just said, “Not gay, bi; you do know that’s a thing, right?”
Willis knows that not gay doesn’t mean straight, as evidenced with the conversation between Billie and Becky.
Why is the lesson that ‘folks are just folks’ the hardest damn thing to learn? Seems like it would simplify judging people. Guess it would also make it more work.
Tribalism is rather deeply ingrained into human instinct. If people can’t find an “us versus them” issue, they’ll invent one. It’s messed up and takes conscious effort to suppress.
This. And then they’ll proceed to subdivide further within those tribes.
Makes it easier to justify taking resources that others need, and thus gain the upper hand in survival. The tribe that takes is the tribe that thrives.
The tribe that is trusted gets better trading.
Though that is a more recent phenomenon.
Wise words. sir or madame, or other.
We, as a species, like to have neat little groupings. I swear it’s in our genes. You see someone, and the first inclination is to categorize them.
Black guy in saggy jeans with a gold tooth? Thug
Hispanic guy with a ton of tats? Cholo
Effeminate man? F*g.
Tomboy? Lesbian
You get the point. Of course, if you do this, sometimes you’ll be right. But it’s an injustice to, at the very least, keep a closed mind. It might be a good idea to avoid a Thug/Cholo because they might actually BE a thug or cholo, and you might get beaten and robbed. That’s a distinct possibility. But then, you might also have a pretty cool conversation with one or the other. I’ve done that on several occasions. But there have also been times where I got the hell out of an area because a thug/cholo or three have been around. I’ve also made friends with effeminate men and butch women, and some have been gay, others not. Big deal… I’ve made friends with some truly awesome people from all sorts, and it’s taken me up until now to get to where I am. I’m not at my goal yet, but I’m making progress. My goal? Don’t judge based on insignificant crap like sexual preference or skin tone. The black guy walking past me in normal clothes elicits no more apprehension than the white guy behind him. Put either of them in certain clothes, and I take more note of them and am more cautious. But the skin isn’t the reason for me anymore. Or at least, I’d like to think that it isn’t. It’s hard to fight social conditioning.
I’d love to see a world where we were just people. Not black people and white people and brown/yellow/whatever people. But we aren’t there. Not yet. Probably never in my life.
This really demonstrates to me that Roz is way more immature than she assumes she is. That face in panel four screams of “I have learned nothing from this experience and how dare you suggest I might be misguided or wrong.”
Agreed that Roz doesn’t realize her own immaturity.
I’m hoping we see her become more self-aware in the future. Re-reading her strips, it strikes me that she really hasn’t had any character development.
Same here. What makes a character far more tolerable to me is if there’s signs of character growth occurring.
And Leslie shows us all how it’s done.
Sadly, Roz’s face in panel 4 makes me think that it was super ineffective. Didn’t get past the armor value of Self-Righteous Arrogance at all.
It penetrated far enough to stop the arguing. I think that’s all Leslie really needed at the moment.
Leslie uses Elephant in the Room.
…
It had no effect.
That is because the elephant… is a ninja.
http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/almost-a-true-story
That was a toasty burn
I have this conversation a lot. Or I would, if I could ever get a word in edgewise.
FINALLY! Roz doesn’t get a pass on being a bongo just because she does it to someone that holds incorrect beliefs. Plus, no one told her to treat Joyce like a hero in the first place. She’s just being an arrogant spiteful prick for pretty much no reason.
(I like how the ~bongo~ switch is the gift that keeps on giving xD)
But wait, if you prick a bongo… No, wait, Bongos are held taunt by the sides, not by air pressure. Never mind.
Taunt my bongos, baby!
bongo out.
Huh, it reminds me of the censor that changed dicks into Mantennas.
OH MA GAD NO! LOL! Now I’m really hoping that cencoring program Willis uses is completely temporary so he can run April Fools cencors. ON WITH THE WORD REPLACEMENT!!!! 😀
Perhaps the best censorship ever.
Roz got the smackdown she needed, but I disagree wholeheartedly with ‘no reason’. It assumes this last arc happens in some sort of vacuum where the characters have no history with each other–which is not the case. Roz’s anger is coming from a real place, not just for some sort of mythical desire for ‘ally points’ or whatever.
Joyce has been nothing but dismissive and insulting to Roz from their first conversation, even on the one occasion that Roz tried to do the right thing.
SHUT DOWN!
A few people are claiming Leslie’s silencing Roz by assuming she’s straight, but riddle me this: if Roz weren’t straight, wouldn’t she be more than capable of telling Leslie so? Instead, by leaving, she concedes Leslie’s point, however grudgingly.
Roz has been very vocal in class discussions, the class discussions have covered matters of orientation. Roz is particularly vocal about her views on sex, her sex life, and so forth. Odds are Leslie knows exactly what orientation Roz is, even if we the readers haven’t seen Roz say the words “I’m straight” on panel.
Also, I’m pretty sure this conversation, by itself, is enough evidence for Leslie to conclude Roz does not have any interest in girls: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/out/
A teacher has a prerogative to silence somebody disrupting class in such an obvious manner as personally attacking other students. Leslie is a good teacher.
Joyce was disrupting the class and attacking an entire, major religious sect- which includes students in the school and, very possibly, in the class. (I don’t just mean “Christian”, I also mean “anti-gay Christian”- but either could have taken offense at Joyce’s outburst)
Leslie was blatantly playing favorites here. She wants to hear Joyce’s outburst because it’s personally validating. She doesn’t want to hear Roz’s outburst. She shuts one down, not the other. That was Joyce’s version of an expletive-filled rant, and everyone knows it.
She should have gotten Joyce to cool down, possibly suggest EVERYONE take a few minutes break as this has clearly brought up a lot of tough emotions- including for Leslie.
Joyce was reacting to emotionally-impacting new information. She was reacting to and responding to the material presented. She made no personal attacks on any person, and even included in her statement that it was because she’s cheesed off in the moment and may well find a more measured position after the first flush.
Roz attacked Joyce personally, claiming that she (Roz) had been ordered/directed to do something she refused to do (treat Joyce like a hero). She literally bullied Joyce until she ran from the classroom in probable tears, upset severely enough that not one but two other classmates felt the need to chase after her to make sure she’s okay, all the while completely disregarding the professor’s clear instructions that the class is to focus on the material rather than each other and then completely disregarding the professor’s clear orders to STOP and LEAVE THE ROOM.
The only one actually disrupting the class was the frothing maniac (hyperbole, but still) who caused three people to leave the room in varying levels of fear and anguish.
The above post sums up my feelings as well and I don’t feel I have much to add to that.
Anonymously makes a very good point, Z (and Mr. Fat), but there’s an even simpler, cleaner one: Roz never gave Leslie the chance to tell Joyce off herself. If Leslie had that chance, she might have let Joyce down more gently, simply because she’s kinder by nature, but she never got that chance. Roz also disrupted the class, but in a much more potent, personal and immediate manner than Joyce, and since letting her down gently wasn’t working, Leslie had to resort to less-than-noble tactics to regain control of her class.
What I want to know is why Roz’s sexuality actually matters for this conversation. It might make what Roz is saying less hypocritical, but even if she were gay/bi/whatever it still doesn’t excuse how she interrupted class to shame Joyce for learning something.
To be fair, Leslie covered that angle first. Roz would have to severely skew this conversation to take home the message that this would’ve been fine if she weren’t straight.
She was basically just saying that she is aware of what’s going on and the issues at hand. And that Roz is saying to listen to gay voices, but she’s ignoring the voice of the lesbian in the room who is saying that this is an okay discussion to have.
The first eighteen years of Joyce’s life aren’t on trial here. She’s just taking a frickin course.
Leslie just introduced Roz to her friend, Tolden Caulfield.
Leslie is worth her weight in Told
and Roz is all like “i’m too Told for this shit!”
Some use underscores for emphasis, others use italics. Leslie uses Told.
Roz just got a Told shower.
Leslie has a good point though.
Also, re: what Roz said about Joyce earlier. To be fair, Joyce was never one of those people tossing gay loved ones out on the street. The very first time she was actually confronted with a gay friend in need, she frickin’ RAN AFTER Becky to let her know she was still loved and welcome to a place to stay, changing her OWN worldview pretty much immediately instead of trying to get Becky to change how she was.
She’s said some gross, messed-up stuff before but when push comes to shove, Joyce has very quickly stepped up to do (and risk) way more to actively help an LGBT kid in this comic so far than we’ve seen Roz do for anyone. Which isn’t to excuse stuff she’s said in the past – but in case people are wondering why we aren’t exactly all cheering for Roz here, well, here you go.
(And lest anyone bring up Ethan: let’s not forget that he’s the one who asked her out first, for the very calculated reason of using her to placate his parents. Still pretty Problematic for Joyce to knowingly date him, but he’s not exactly being victimized, here.)
I think, at least on this topic, Joyce is kind of an anti-villain. She’s obviously more malevolent when it comes to pre-marital sex, but when it comes to homosexuality she doesn’t wish anyone ill will.
I don’t think she’s malevolent even then. I think she honestly wishes people the best at every point, but Joyce sometimes has her values flipped, causing her to think something is best when it’s actually worst.
That’s what Tiberius’ point is, I believe. The actual consequences of her actions are bad, but her intentions are good ones.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiVillain
Tell Joe that. Better yet, tell his face that.
Mike would. With his fist.
you don’t need to be malevolent to spread misery around you tho, let’s never forget that. Joyce’s very publicized beliefs are hurtful, even when held by a good-hearted person such as her.
Yes, but when Joyce is confronted with the harm her beliefs are doing, I’m sure she’ll be quick to try to change her tracks to a less harmful one.
Correction, the first time she was confronted with a gay friend in need she said she would help *fix him*.
You try to sweep that under the rug, but that’s kinda a big deal.
But her response to fix him came after him saying he didn’t want to be Gay. Joyce may not have known enough not to do what she did in an attempt to help, but her actions were still an attempt to help him achieve what HE wanted.
I feel like a lot of people forget this: Joyce didn’t find out that Ethan was gay and say “LET ME CLEANSE YOU.” He TOLD her he didn’t want to be gay. It was HIS decision, not hers. Should she have agreed? Probably not, since it only serves to further this idea that he needs to change. But she was trying to help him achieve what he told her he wanted. What Ethan needs is for someone to treat him like his sexuality isn’t the most important thing about him. Unfortunately, no one’s really done that, so he’s still trapped in this idea that he can’t be both gay and be the person he was before he came out. But, none of this is Joyce’s fault. Becky is the first person to come out to Joyce and ask her to accept that. We should judge Joyce on the way she’s handled Becky, not Ethan. Also of note is that Joyce is pretty obviously confused about how she’s supposed to handle Ethan now that she has attempted to reconcile her faith with accepting homosexuality, since Sarah bringing him up obviously distressed her. She wants to help him the way he wants to be helped… but I’m willing to bet she’s not as okay with trying to make him straight now.
Also remember that it wasn’t just to “fix” him, though she no doubt hoped that would be a potential outcome. First of all she’s had the idea that the most important thing she can get out of college is to find a husband to provide for her so they can raise good christian babies together ingrained from just about every man and woman in her community. Then her first date turns out to be a lecherous jerk (who she proceeded to assault for no legitimate reason) and the next time she finds a guy, he drugs her and tries to rape her.
On her third attempt, she finds a guy who she knows has no sexual attraction to her, which becomes a sort of relief because she feels safe that he won’t just try to get in her pants. Then comes the bad part because she considers homosexual hanky panky to be just as bad or worse than heterosexual hanky panky. So she thinks if he’s her boyfriend, she doesn’t have to be scared she’ll be coerced into hanky panky and if she’s his girlfriend, he’s good and honest and won’t cheat on her tp have homosexual hanky panky.
And she probably thinks (or used to) that if they keep it going long enough, he’d turn straight.
Even odds joyce left class to talk to Ethan about her realization of what’s wrong with their mutual enabling of each other’s oppressed and oppressive homophobia (does homophobia apply here?).
I figure it’s a 47.5 percent chance she’s going to look for Becky, 47.5 percent chance she’s going to look for Ethan, and about a 5% chance she’s just going off somewhere to cry alone because Roz’s little outburst has her believing that she’s a horrible monster for something she never even personally did.
Yeah, and her dating Ethan has always been more about feeling safe. She feels safe around him because she knows he will never take advantage of her like the guy at the party. “Fixing” his gayness is only a small part of it.
Thank you. I’ve been waiting for someone to acknowledge that.
I think the whole “fixing” thing is a justification for why she should date Ethan, even if Ethan isn’t interested in her physically. Also, I’ve noticed she gets a lot of flack for dating him, but Ethan seems to get surprisingly little of late. It’s not like, for example, Melissa in early El Goonish Shive where she’s pointedly ignoring Justin orientation and trying to foist herself on him. They both aren’t really ready to deal with sex, and dating each other lets them not have to worry about it.
Roz got told.
Yes, Roz, she gets a pass — for now. Coming to terms with it on her own is hard enough without getting a verbal gut-punch that is in its own way just as self-righteous.
Oh, to be younger than 20 again. Yes, I’m sure Roz would like to condemn Joyce for life for the beliefs Joyce has been forced to maintain with no access to any alternatives (home-schooled, with apparently hyper-vigilant parents, lest we forget.)
Roz is not necessarily wrong in what she believes (not that we’ve gotten a complete view of that yet, so I’m not judging. But she’s a hell of a lot less wrong than Joyce, let’s say that) but yes in terms of living in the real world and dealing with real people, she’s got a bit of growing up to do.
Yeah, exactly, these people are all teenagers, which I think is easy to forget sometimes. Nobody can know and be aware of absolutely everything – ever – but especially not at 18 lol.
Yet, we are quite certain that we have it all worked out anyways.
Y’know…on further reflection…Roz doesn’t even want to condemn Joyce for life. She’s all pissed off, and now that Joyce is starting to grow and understand why her previous passivity was wrong, she wants to PUNISH Joyce for it.
And that is just stupid.
But unfortunately, a reflection on society.
She wants to punish Joyce for making no effort to evaluate her views until she was essentially forced to by circumstance and for trying to pretend that she wasn’t culpable for the practices of the religious institution she has up until this point supported wholeheartedly and loudly.
This is just a guess, but Roz seems ot be in the “Force people to accept my views OR ELSE!” camp, which really hurts any “rightness” she might have.
What’s really bad is that, Joyce is trying to grow. She is just now coming to terms with everything. And instead of saying “It’s good that you’re growing and understanding” Roz is attacking her. Joyce obviously already feels awful about what the church has done, there’s no need to make her feel guilty about it. Does she get a gold star for being decent? No. But, Roz, neither do you, nor does anyone else. And you certainly don’t get a gold star for attacking a person when they’re clearly vulnerable. In terms of shitty behavior, currently, Joyce is a saint compared to Roz. For all her beliefs against homosexuality and pre-marital hanky-panky, at least she was never cruel to anyone for those choices. Tactless, sure, in the instance of the ‘flower’ conversation, but she was never cruel.
Roz reminds me of that time I saw a white college student yelling at a black man, “You don’t undertand racism and oppression like I do!”
That sentence might encapsulate the problem with SJW’s quicker then anything I’ve seen yet.
“SJW” covers a wide variety of peple, ranging from well-meaning individuals who campaign for social justice… to insane extremists who ruin it for everybody.
Remember: Every group has its lunatic fringe. The trick is not letting that fringe identify you all. Also, if you claim that “My group doesn’t have a fringe, only the other side,” then it’s probably you.
I’ve typically seen people with good intentions and legitimate actions referred to as social justice activists, or simply people into Social Justice. A very important distinction.
I make no argument that every single group of people large enough to be considered a group will have it’s collection of assholes, loony’s, and loony assholes.
The minute you try to claim to be a “warrior” and you are not a soldier or something similar, you are officially taking it too far.
Only exception would be athletic groups, but even then it is walking a thin line between inspiration and silliness.
Yeah, this. It talks below how some are trying to reclaim it, but I find that dubious. I’m finding it hard to believe that anybody using “warrior” like that won’t end up being a good candidate to reclaim it so much as perpetuate the stereotype. The last one I saw doing so accused my screenname of being ablest as a conversation opener. Needless to say they did not convince me otherwise.
It doesn’t help that anybody calling themselves a warrior on the internet makes me recall this first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3mDLsyn6ns
Social justice warrior was originally a pejorative term, though. People who pursue social justice didn’t call themselves that; other people did, as a an insult. Anyone who self identifies as an SJW is using it at least somewhat ironically.
Bluntly, as to be expected, plenty of people who hate ANY form of critique regarding sexism, race relations, or so on calling people with legitimate concerns, “Social Justice Warriors” and insulting them. As a result, the term has lost a lot of its burn value.
Not the least because it sounds so damned cool. 🙂
Ridureyu, this term may have covered a wide variety of people once, but these days “SJW” is almost exclusively associated with the extremists. It has become – as one of my teachers called it – a “burned term”.
A lot of people are reclaiming it now, though. Decent people who hate how it’s become this extremist term. I actually still like the term for it’s original meaning. I feel like it’s become distorted in the same way people *think* feminist has been distorted. (feminism hasn’t really been distorted, the *peception* of it has been distorted by like a handful of bad apples, which I think is exactly what happened to social justice warrior). But I see it like this, if you’re not for social justice, then you’re… a jerkwad, because who would be against social justice? Just like how if you’re not for feminism, you’re a jerkward as well.
Idk. Did that make sense? I’ve drunk an energy drink like 8 hours ago and it still hasn’t worn off, so I’m a bit all over the place tonight xD
Frankly, I’ve never liked the term “Social Justice Warrior”. It always had this unnecessarily aggressive conotation to me, so I’m not sure if “reclaiming” it is really the way to go. You can be for equality and social justice without labeling yourself anything. Insteaf of saying “I’m a Social Justice Warrior”, why not simply say: “I’m a decent human being”? Let’s just drop the labels and ignore all the extremists that are poisoning the well at the moment.
The connotation “warrior” always had to me, in this sense, was that these people were actively picking fights… not just fighting for what they believe in. The sort of people that just go out of their way to find something to object to, as if they’ve got something to prove.
Both those who are claiming it and those using it in a negative way have taken it too broadly since, however. It’s one of the phrases that’s lost its meaning the fastest, in my opinion.
“Actively picking fights” and “just fighting for what they believe in” are not antonyms.
I don’t think it’s a burned term at all anymore. Frankly, so many asshats use it like it’s supposed to be a bad thing against people whose views I admire that I can’t help but think it has a kind of prestige now.
So many people use the term Social Justice Warrior for ANY Social Justice Activism, though, it’s lost a lot of its meaning for checking white liberal privilege. For example, I proudly call myself a Social Justice Assassin because I bother to do Social Justice work at all.
I feel the same way about SJW that I do about Feminist. Both terms started out as positive things with a good message, but have been irredeemably associated with the extremist position in popular culture. That’s why I call myself an egalitarian instead of a feminist; it’s essentially the same message, but without the bad reputation. A better term for SJW might be civil rights activist.
Sounds like one of the perils of becoming a ‘special snowflake’.
Must ask: what was the reaction?
To be fair, she was probably technically right. Just not in the way she meant to be.
Was it a white kid from Africa?
And out goes the pot, moments after the exit of the kettle.
I half-expect her to chase after Joyce to continue haranguing her, only to come upon Joyce reasserting to Becky that she wants to help and is going to help and those statistics were terrifying.
If that were to happen, I have no idea what Roz’s reaction would be. I’d like to think Good Roz who happens to carry around support materials and knows local resources due to her volunteering would make an appearance. Today and the last few days make me think we’d actually get a crowing ‘I knew you only pretended to change your mind because it’s relevant to someone you care about! Evil confirmed!’
Sadly, I get the feeling that Roz would see that Joyce’s change of heart was only because she had a friend who was gay, and then she’d belittle her for changing her mind for personal reasons instead of ‘actually’ being a decent human being.
Yup. Hypothetical RIP, Good Roz.
Amazingly Leslie manage to raise a point that hasn’t been discussed twenty times the last two days.
I dunno… Leslie’s teaching style is a bit too informal for my taste. She is gay, yes, but in this situation she is also an adult and Roz’ teacher. There is a very real privilege difference between them which has to do with who gets to grade who. Discussing Roz sexuality is not unproblematic in that perspective, and arguing with a student in front of the class is rarely a good thing. The damage Roz did is already done. I would have preferred a more assertive than shaming way to end the discussion.
Leslie was attempting assertive in the first panel. Roz wasn’t having any of that.
I don’t think Leslie was trying to shame her. For one thing, Roz doesn’t really do shame. (Anger at people attempting to shame her, yes, but not shame.) But more importantly, I don’t think her remark was meant to be personal. She was simply attempting to make Roz think critically about what she was saying after several minutes of attempting a softer approach. And considering Roz’s entire argument was based around Joyce’s unwillingness to think about what she was doing, she had to acknowledge that or forfeit whatever valid points she’d been making.
I’d say Roz was totally shaming Joyce for her affiliation with the church. Taking those homeless/at-risk queer youth stats and unambiguously saying “that was you” is shaming if I ever heard it.
Roz: “Joyce has been ignoring and shouting over gay people for the past eighteen years!”
Leslie: “You’ve been ignoring and shouting over me, a gay person, for the past five minutes. That was you.”
And THEN Roz gets the hint. Sometimes it’s like shame is the only language Roz even speaks. It is undeniably effective, though in the same way stabbing a cancer patient to death with a shovel will stop them from dying of the cancer if you just can’t figure out how scalpels work.
I dunno, Roz’s face in panel four and her stance as she storms out tells me she DIDN’T get the hint. That’s the face of “how DARE you suggest I’m being hypocritical while I speak for you!”
Might take a bit of time for that to really sink in.
That’s what I think too.
“And considering Roz’s entire argument was based around Joyce’s unwillingness to think about what she was doing, she had to acknowledge that or forfeit whatever valid points she’d been making.”
And if her expression in panel four is any indication, Roz didn’t learn the lesson.
An issue with that is Leslie being a lesbian has nothing to do with Roz talking over her. If she were strait the entire interaction from Roz would have been exactly the same. So it was a non sequitur point that can be dismissed.
Thing is, though, the lesson for the day was LGBT people being kicked out of their homes, something Leslie openly admitted happened to her. Roz took it upon herself to speak on behalf of homosexuals and yell at Joyce for changing her stance. In spite of the fact that Leslie, a homosexual who has actually experienced the thing Roz is railing against, didn’t have a problem with Joyce’s change of heart and was actively telling Roz not to attack her for it. Leslie being a lesbian is actually the entire point.
If I were Leslie, I would have gone with “Roz shut up or get out or I’m calling security to remove you. Pick one.”
Or stand up, turn my back and write something on the blackboard for 10 seconds, or just be silent for a little while and let Roz realize that the discussion has ended. There are thousands of way to handle a situation like that.
I’m not saying that Leslie’s way of dealing with it was horrible (nothing in line with Roz’ outburst), but I think she could have dealt with it better.
Well yeah, everything could be done better. If superheroes can get away with wearing their capes wrong for years, I think a teacher can get away with an imperfect method for how she handles an outside-of-the-norm situation.
Not without anyone pointing it out, she cannot, not among the nitpickers in this commentator field. 🙂
So you’re not even curious about the capes?
Fine, I’ll save it for the next Amazi Girl strip. No! NOT THAT STRIP! DAMN YOU WILLIS!!!! Even though this one wasn’t your fault…
Anyway, any hints on how long till the caped masked(wo)man will show her face again?
Ending it like that risks allowing ROz to continue thinking that what she did was acceptable. The ‘correct’ action would probably be amping up her authority as a teacher ‘this is a learning environment we are supposed to be able to learn in peace and I am your professor, I get the final say, and when I say the discussion is over it is over. ALl the same, Roz has shown no respect to Leslie as a teacher, so would it have worked? It may not.
And in such a situation, the worst thing that you could do is let Roz believe her actions were acceptable or allowed.
I’m worried Roz might see this as grounds to report Leslie for bullying her students. I really hope she isn’t that vindictive, but I don’t know.
Ok but if Roz reported Leslie for bullying all Les would have to do is explain that Roz had been disrupting the class with personal attacks on another student despite being asked to stop, and when asking her to stop didn’t work she was asked to leave, which request took a couple repetitions and a continued argument to be effective. This is easily verified by witnesses, I.e. the rest of the students.
I don’t think Leslie’s response was a great idea from a teacher’s perspective, and from her body language in the last panel, she probably regrets have to stoop to that level. I think the reason she did it is because she made numerous attempts to assert her authority both during Roz’s rant and in panel one of this strip, but Roz continued to be disrespectful of said authority. So Leslie felt the only way to make Roz finally shut up was to be devastatingly blunt. Was it the right move? No. But unlike Roz, I think Leslie knows when she took things too far.
Roz has been asserting herself over the teacher for longer than today – remember her earlier appearances in class? “I don’t need this class, because I know everything about it!”
Oh, believe me, I didn’t forget that. That’s been on my mind since Roz first started her judge rant against Joyce. There was also Roz demanding to know what she had to learn besides ‘treat everyone equal’, and when Leslie answered her question, she indignantly asked what that had to do with gender studies. What we witnessed here was the last of Leslie’s patience giving way.
I would actually not be shocked if Roz dropped out of gender studies because of this incident. It feels like the sort of thing she’d do in order to make herself feel justified. I hope I’m wrong about that; I don’t hate Roz, I just want her to grow up.
Wouldn’t surprise me if gender studies is Roz’s major, but her bit on the cast page doesn’t say and I don’t have the DoA books in front of me to check if she has a bio in one of them.
I don’t think there was really another option here that would have stopped her unfortunately.
Roz is that kind of difficult person who doesn’t shut up when you try to display authority or when you stand down and will only stop if you completely shut them down.
She told Roz to leave the class. Twice. Clearly “assertive” wasn’t cutting it.
That said yeah, Leslie might be a “fun” teacher, but if you count “ability to control a classroom” she isn’t a very *good* teacher.
Might be so, but I think she was stuck between a rock and a hard place here. There was no real easy way to get through to Roz.
You don’t know anything about Leslie’s teaching style. You’ve seen combined about two minutes of her classes out of several hours.
Also the point isn’t to give an actual lecture but to advance the story.
We know plenty about Leslie’s teaching style. We know that she is laid back and informal, we know that she wants to create discussion rather than have the students listen to hear speak, we know that she likes to use real examples (Robin as a woman in male dominated career field, Roz and Joe’s sex tape, and her own homosexuality), we know that she gives the student a lot of freedom (Joe is not berated for being constantly late, Mike was allowed to sit in the class, Roz was allowed a lot of free reigns up until now). Just look how she sits on her desk rather than behind it to create an informal atmosphere.
Compare with the math teacher who with have seen much, much less of, but we still have a pretty good idea of his teaching style. (No questions except office hours, notes getting collected and graded, heavy reliance on TA’s).
So, yeah, we know pretty well how they teach.
Leslie has worked hard to create a discussion and to get her students emotionally invested. That worked maybe too well – that’s open for discussion. If she had had a more traditional teaching style with one-way communication and more text book examples maybe four students hadn’t fled the room. On the other hand maybe Walky would just doodle dinosaurs instead of running to the rescue of run-away lesbians.
She’s pretty much what both my Gender studies teachers were like. One of them had us all write as many dirty words as we could on the white board, and then we discussed each one in depth. Both of them talked about their sex lives. This is just what it’s like. *shrugs*
Willis,
Don’t be so hard on yourself ( pun intended )
Sooner or laters , Joel will give into your extensive charms.
“Basically its inevitable”
—Jennifer Billingsworth
Speaking of Bromances on simmer; meanwhile, I wonder whats up with Danny x Ethan ?
Grr No edit . That is supposed to say “pun UNintended”
Now it sounds douchy
I hope at some point Roz will learn that just because people shame her for her lifestyle she doesn’t have to shame people for their past.
I guess Roz doesn’t care if she get’s a failing grade in this class.
Does that humble pie come with whip cream?
Is that a tu quoque attack?
Yes and no. Since Roz’s entire justification for disrupting class is based on the conduct being described, she cannot simultaneously justify her actions and condemn Joyce’s. With tu quoque, it’s more a case of, “You’re condemning theft, even though I know you routinely download illegal song copies.” While you can accuse me of hypocrisy, I’m not basing my argument against theft in a way that requires me to download those songs.
I remember the last time Roz and Leslie interacted, Roz was all, “What the hell else is there to learn but treat everyone equally?” It’s a pretty nice statement but then Leslie follows it up by telling her that there’s always more to learn and thinking otherwise is foolish (dangerous, even!). And now we finally get the payoff, two years later.
Especially when you remember that Roz’s response to that was a beligerent “what does this have to do with gender studies”. Roz has behaved disrespectfully numerous times in this class and Leslie has likely had enough.
Yep. “I didn’t need to bring a textbook.” “Let me guess…it’s because you can teach the class yourself.” “Oh, so you’ve met me.”
Yeah that’s kind of dickish.
There’s never a mic to drop when you really need one.
Least, not one who won’t want to beat someone up afterwords. #BadSpellar
Because poor literacy is KEWL!
I’m in the minority here, but this one doesn’t make me happy. Don’t get me wrong, it’s always nice to see jerks struck dumb, and Roz is definitely being a jerk HERE, no matter what’s in her past or future.
But I don’t Leslie feels like calling this a win. From her point of view, she tried to keep order in her classroom in a dignified manner and tried and tried and it just wouldn’t take until she finally had to resort to name-calling, and four people just actively fled her classroom. I don’t think she did anything wrong– I’m not even sure this could’ve been avoided– but I think that’s got to sting.
Yeah, she doesn’t look happy. This is less of a mic drop and more of a “place the mic back on the stand and adjust it”
More like a backwards mike drop: she was trying to drop the mike, but it flew up into the air uncontrollably instead.
Leslie’s body language in the 4th panel “I’m so tired of this sh**”
5th*
don’t judge meeee I haven’t gotten my coffee yet
COFFEE SIPPER! (In actuality, I don’t particularly care how you take in your hot beverages as much as I do the fact you could drink something that smells like coffee.
Dangit I was feeling all “FOUR FOR YOU LESLIE YOU GO LESLIE” but you’re totally right.
I really hope the next strip is Joe being forced to process all this drama.
He came out to have a good time and he’s honestly feeling so attacked right now.
You’re right, I get the sense that was a last resort for Leslie. Had Roz left well enough alone after panel one, Leslie would have marched on with her lesson and dealt with Roz privately once class was finished. Instead, Roz continued to be disrespectful and beligerent and Leslie had to be blunt in order to get the girl to shut up. And instead of apologizing or backing down, Roz stormed out. Yeah, Leslie doesn’t think she’s won anything.
Leslie DID NOT name call Roz. When did she do that exactly? She simply pointed out that Roz was guilty of the very thing she claims to be angry about (refusing to consider the perspective of someone else). It’s clear that Leslie didn’t enjoy how class went down, but that’s Roz’ (and real life’s) fault, not her own.
Yup, from a teaching point of view it was a fail. And the chemistry she worked so hard to build in the beginning of class is gone now. She can just as well spend the rest of the time talking scissoring with Joe as trying to talk about LGBT discrimination to what remains of the class.
Her whole teaching style is about building trust and building a good discussion climate, but that requires moderation. I think she might have done more to build in rules of conduct in the group dynamic. Thinks like this may have given the students the wrong impression about what is accaptable and not. (I’m also not a fan of shaming a student like this.
Don’t get me wrong. Leslie is easily the best teacher we have seen in the comic – and she is a genuinely good teacher. This was a tricky situation and she didn’t handle it terribly – but there is always thinks that could have been dealt with better.
She’s also possibly humored Roz’s past outbursts a bit more than she should’ve.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/prank-pulled/
When Roz claimed she already knew all the material Leslie stopped and gave a very patient mini-lecture about how life is a glorious tapestry and there’s always so much more to learn. Roz was stubborn throughout but Leslie kept addressing Roz’s points.
Allowing Roz to try and hook her up with Robin might’ve also given Roz the impression that she was untouchable.
Their relationship has gotten pretty casual even in comparison to the rest of the class. Roz will for example tell Leslie what to wear.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/02-i-was-a-teenage-churchmouse/gag/
To say nothing of the fact that asking Roz to book a speaker for their class that they both know has no expertise on the subject just so she can be around a cute girl for a bit probably sent some bad signals about how much she values a professional learning environment in the class. If the professor doesn’t care about that then why should Roz?
Leslie’s probably wishing she’d nipped this in the bud earlier. Hindsight, 20-20 and all that.
She tried to build trust by being the laid-back, hip professor. But it’s hard to be the laid-back, hip, AND authoritative professor. And getting angry, while justified, probably doesn’t help.
Yeah. It strikes me as an inelegant way to make the right point. In better circumstances, she could explain her point of view in a more compassionate way, but a bunch of students in her classroom started shouting and storming off. Composure’s getting taxed. She threw Roz’s words right back in her face.
That’s a good way to spite an enemy but a lousy way to run a classroom. I look forward to seeing how she follows up on this.
To be fair, Leslie had few options left for dealing with Roz at this point.
It’s not supposed to make you happy. Everyone is just pissed off and/or upset.
It’s a greater example of why Roz isn’t helping anyone or proving anything.
That was my take exactly from the last panel. Class just went to hell in a handbasket, and she ain’t happy.
Damn that was nice. Leslie Bean you are the best!
Is no one bringing up that it was Roz’s Demand that Dorothy bring a friend to a party that lead to someone attempted to rape Joyce? And that Joyce’s religion was why she was targeted?
But that’s not something you can fault anyone involved. It’s not Roz’s fault that she had Dorothy bring someone*, it’s not Dorothy’s fault that she brought Joyce, and it’s certainly not Joyce’s fault that she was targeted.
There is one person at fault and that is Ryan.
*in fact, I would argue it’s good advice.
Well said.
Yes, but maybe it does help explain why Dorothy would not want to push Joyce harder …
*claps* Exactly.
But how I see Roz being horribly wrong here, is that Roz was at that party. She (probably) knew what happened to Joyce there. And in-universe time, this isn’t so far separated that she could possibly expect Joyce to have just built a bridge and got over it by now.
Hold on now, I think Roz was in the wrong in this current incident, but Roz knows absolutely nothing about what actually went down at the party. From what she’s said and indicated, all she knows about is that there was a fight. She has said as much.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/03-the-first-step-towards-recovery/peter/
She looked surprised at the subsequent outburst in the next strip, indicating she did not in fact know what went down beyond there being a fight. Whatever else her flaws, she did at least recommend a place to go for Joyce when she got the impression something might have happened. Considering Joyce has asked all the people who know otherwise to NOT talk about it, I doubt anybody’s filled her in on the whole story since.
Roz didn’t know.All she hear about was a fight. When confronted with the fact that something did go wrong and Joyce was hurt by it she then approaches her after class to offer assistance. Joyce is (rightfully) skeptical and manages to phrase it in a very…fundamentalist way, causing Roz to retreat (likely with an “ugh, fundies” mindset).
So Roz got a vague idea that something could have possibly happened, but doesn’t know what. I doubt Roz thinks of it much as she doesn’t interact with Joyce outside of this class and Joyce has made it clear she’s not interested in help from Roz (which is totally understandable).
Meanwhile this is a discussion on homeless LGBT, and Roz, if she’s thought of the party incident at all before her outburst (very unlikely as Roz seems a tad impulsive), would not think that Joyce’s problem had to do with homeless LGBT.
“There is one person at fault and that is Ryan.”
Spot on.
Also, while I may be a white upper-middleclass white dude, I’m still gay, and I’d take a Joyce-style ally over a Roz-style ally any day of the week.
So kindly stop being such a raging fartknocker, Roz. Please.
Roz, how are you even in college?
Her sister Robin’s in the government, so maybe it’s the money and prestige.
‘Course, the dean does not like Robin, nor voted for her, so that’s not likely.
She’s probably smart at other things. Not a lot of high schools have gender studies classes for her to mouth off in.
What an utterly weird question. Because she applied.
Sorry, applied and was accepted.
Really I thought it was all the guys she had to blow.
Way to slut shame.
Roz is in college becaus she is OBVIOUSLY intelligent.
At the same time she just happens to be an asshole.
Yeah, Roz is probably pretty smart. The thing about smart people is that smart people can find smart reasons to justify doing stupid things.
Roz is smart, but not all that wise.
Thank you, Templar.
Also, book intelligent/high school grades good doesn’t mean she’ll be well adjusted or smart at college. It really isn’t that surprising that she or Walky made it there.
Wow that was uncalled for, and I have no idea where that came from.
Is that what you think of Joe too? That he fucked his way into getting accepted as well?
Like you’ve never met slightly (or even very) immature people in college? Or even in the work place? You must not live in this world then 😉
She’s 18. Everyone is a bit of an idiot at 18. She applied, and was accepted. That means that her SAT and ACT scores were acceptable, and that her high school GPA was as well. As for how she is still IN college, term isn’t up, so the school hasn’t had time to send her an academic warning or academic probation yet, if her GPA isn’t up to snuff.
You don’t get into college by being nice. You can be the jerkiest jerk around and still graduate college with honors.
Because she’s ambitious and self-confident. Better question is, why is she in Gender Studies?
What rubs me the wrong way is that Leslie and her curriculum did jack shit to change Joyce. There was no Learning. It took personal and emotional events coupled with roadblocks to her personal agenda (Get help for Becky ) to provoke anything. Roz was right to ask Joyce what happened to evoke that change, because it certainly did not come from an intellectual source.
That wasn’t asking. That was accusation and scorn in the shape of a question.
The only thing I can say in Roz’ defense is that she hasn’t spent any time with Joyce and probably hasn’t wanted to, so she wouldn’t know about Becky or how Joyce chose her friendship over her indoctrination. With Mary as a roommate and being raised by conservative parents and having to deal with her sister’s bigoted colleagues, she probably made up her mind about who Joyce is as a person after their first encounter.
That being said, I still think her reaction to Joyce’s outburst was utterly revolting. She wasn’t trying to teach her anything or learn what prompted her sudden change, she was attacking her verbally to make her feel responsible for things she naively was unaware of and wouldn’t have had the influence to stop even if she had known.
How on Earth are you expecting Leslie to be aware of this? But actually, some of it DID come from the class! Joyce learned that many LGBTQ+ people are homeless, kicked out of their homes, and/or put into rehabilitation programs. She learned that many homeless LGBTQ+ people are turned away from religious charities.
So actually, she did learn.
Thank you! What Joyce can gain from this class are facts that she was ignorant of. She did just that. Her reaction was heavily shaped by outside events, yes, but personal experiences have always been more powerful than any lecture.
Did Leslie just assume Roz was straight or did it get touched on in a previous strip?
It was indeed, during gender studies in fact.
It’s weird to see the same avatar answering him/her self, haha.
Roz, don’t hold Joyce accountable for her toddler and kid years. That’s crap logic right there.
Well, not just crap but straight up d-bag-ish.
Smite the homophobic babies!
…with a spoon ?
Maybe a +4 spoon or higher, and who’s gonna put that level of enchantment on a spoon? Homophobic babies repub. regen and their sonic attack abilities are just too high. They’ll chip your HP away before you can finish them off. Unless you took Baby Smiter as a feat, and even then you are a warrior class and could have started with a fork or better as your weapon.
The Tick.
The tick has like, +7 to any spoon by default, true. But he’s a broken-as-hell NPC. What DM would let you play him without nerfing his stats? But fair enough, if you can pass the checks to convince the tick to attack baby’s, you’ve got a baby-slaying spoon warrior.
Maybe some guy just wanted to cast a bunch of spells to level up, so he enchanted the spoon and traded it for money to go buy more stuff to randomly enchant.
By the time you have the levels to give a spoon +4 enchant, you could be enchanting bread knives or soda bottles for significantly more profit and only +3 gp more investment cost.
So? You get more from lower level players when you trade the spoon than when you sell it. And seriously, who wouldn’t want to put some of that junk collectable stuff to good use?
This. Does she think Joyce came out of the womb spouting homophobic slurs??
This needs to be a T-shirt.
So I know that this sort of situation would be called ‘mansplaining’ if it were a guy telling a woman about female issues. Is there a word for a straight person telling gay people about gay issues? Straightsplaining? Something like that?
Yeah, it’s called being an SJW. :p
Sock Jaw Weather?
Social Justice Warrior – and contrary to ‘popular’ opinion, it’s intentionally ironic. The label started to label people just like Roz – white (usually, but not always), affluent, college-educated straight women who like to “white-rich-educated-straight-splain” social justice to all of us poor SOBs who are living it.
Your description reminds me of a picture I wish I could find – a black girl having her mouth covered while a white girl explains how the black girl is so brainwashed and she can’t possibly think straight so the white girl will be offended on the Internet for her, or something to that affect.
Yes, that’s pretty much exactly it!
dangit I just spent ten minutes looking for that picture but couldn’t find it. I have failed you The Thing. My google-fu was weak this day.
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/877340-plebcomics
here ya go!
*bows to Keroshino* your Google-Fu is the best.
Aren’t plebcomics and the artiest behind them pretty notoriously racist?
Ok, I had never heard of plebcomics until now, so I went through the KnowYourMeme page and links, and the AMAs with Abby. Now I’m sad I missed out, and I wish I could have talked to her, because she sounds like half the friends I love hanging out with.
The only thing “pretty notoriously racist” I’m seeing there is in the butthurt of various people who are reported to have attacked and/or doxxed her. :/
@ caramelunqueer
No, I think she’s pretty even-handed:
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/877/339/8c2.png MRAs
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/877/338/e4d.jpg Racists.
Though in this case Les is more educated than Roz and is literally teaching a gender studies course, which is exactly the sort of course the anti-SJW crowd would be suspicious of.
And since Joyce herself is a woman you could claim she’s been “living it” and should have no need of gender studies.
I have no doubt that people have used gender studies theorizing to dismiss someone’s lived experience, but I see more people using the SJW term to dismiss attempts to go beyond an unexamined gut reaction.
At this point I think I’ve seen racists/sexists/supremacists use the term far more than anyone else. Like, until now I thought it was specifically a “racist/sexist/supremacist’s term for someone who does not support racist/sexist/supremacist views.”
That’s part of the problem, though. If you don’t want people to “dismiss attempts to go beyond an unexamined gut reaction,” you can’t dismiss people you ASSUME haven’t gone beyond a gut reaction (Joyce), just because their conclusions are different than yours (yours in a general-yours sense).
Joyce certainly came into college very fundie, but that doesn’t mean that gut reactions on her part are the only thing that drive her OR that when they do, they drive her in the “wrong” direction. She knows her Bible stories and passages better than the “pastor’s son” who tried to rape her. She was able to parse out the difference between “loving unconditionally,” as Jesus instructed her to do, from “loving only those who look and think like me” as her parents dictated she do. You can’t do those things without examining them – people who don’t examine their beliefs take their gut reaction at face value and when confronted with it reply, “It’s in the Bible” without offering a citation – because they don’t know it. Sometimes, they can pull the right book title in a vague sense. They were taught their whole lives “it’s in the Bible,” and they never thought to read it critically and comprehensively themselves. Other times, they might get the citation almost there, but they can’t fucking *spell* it correctly on their hate!signs, or they regurgitate select citations and clam up when confronted with the context for it, because they don’t have an understanding of the context. Likewise, they can’t “love unconditionally,” because that requires examining people with even the worst and most hurtful traits and thinking about what motivates them and how they got there, and loving the person despite those things. Joyce had been taught her whole life atheists were evil, but when Dorothy came along, friendly, caring and completely normal, Joyce was able to examine the situation and say, “Yes, I still worry over her soul, yes, I still wish she were Christian, but I can love her anyway.”
Joyce HAS been living a woman’s life, but being a woman doesn’t make anyone exempt from Gender/Women’s Studies. (Being American doesn’t make us exempt from U.S. History, owning a calculator doesn’t make us exempt from Math, either.) She was born with the genitalia to be assigned a female at birth, and we know from Jocelyn’s unfortunate experience that her parents would never, ever, ever deviate from any kind of status quo when it comes to naming their children and enforcing strict gender roles on them. Joyce has also always identified as a woman, and she has always identified herself as straight to others. Those are *legitimate* things some women have as part of their identity.
She also values waiting until marriage to have sex, even after researching the Bible more carefully when Becky challenged her views. And? I was atheist until my senior year of high school and became Pagan during college, and while I didn’t wait until marriage to have sex, I *did* wait until I was in a very stable relationship with a man who would later become my husband. Surprise! Joyce is also looking for that! We then lived together for an additional three years before we got married – my religious beliefs did not conflict with that, and my husband was a liberal enough Christian that he was also okay with it. I place a very high value on the intimate nature of sex and the kind of relationships it is supposed to forge; just because someone “liberated” like Roz thinks it’s little more than cheap entertainment doesn’t change that. Perhaps Roz should examine HER thoughts on that – how many people is she potentially hurting that way? Even if she honestly, genuinely doesn’t give a fuck (pun only partially intended) about any of the men she has sex with, what if one of them were hoping she cared at least a little? What if they went in knowing she wanted to make a sex tape or just party or whatever, but came out of it feeling sad because they wished it was more meaningful to her, because it ended up more meaningful to *them*? How many people like Joe is she hurting without ever realizing it, because they’re struggling to even be honest with themselves? But nope, Roz is SO DONE with all that intimate-partner-wait-until-marriage bullshit the PaTrIaRcHy imposes on women, so she’s clearly right and Joyce is wrong.
Examining beliefs and structures is a two-way street – that’s what Leslie was TRYING to get Roz to listen for five minutes about while Roz shouted over top of her. That’s why ANY competent Gender/Women’s Studies professor doesn’t let students make personal attacks in the classroom.
I hope Roz is running off to the bathroom, because she needs to spend some time in front of a mirror. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-big-questions/201108/we-see-in-others-what-we-fear-in-ourselves
That’s NOT how that phrase started. My understanding is it was originally used by white conservatives talking down to black women.
Most places where I have seen both “SJW” and “mansplain” said, it was the people who called others mansplainers who got called SJWs, not the other way around.
That’s not at all what an SJW is. It’s been used multiple times to label poc and queer women. It’s pretty much “activist I disagree with”. I wouldn’t go around labeling terminology popular with Gamergate as a legitimate word to use.
IIRC, that term was around before GG.
If I were to use it, it would be for slacktivists who think reblogging something is just as good as actually going out and trying to change the world, and perhaps people like Roz who think having the ‘correct’ opinions means you can skimp on tact.
He’s not saying Gamergate invented the term, he’s saying the sort of people who become Gamergaters are also the sort of people who call other people SJWs.
The idea that reblogging news about social justice isn’t going to change anything, and that people who do that are lazy “slacktivists” is pretty ignorant and judgmental. Our society thrives on technology and social networking and mainstream media (in the US) is an unreliable source to get information about anything that doesn’t directly affect the US. We fight for social justice by advocating for awareness. If people were aware and educated about these issues, they are more likely to view things in a different way. If we can change one person’s mind and they work to change one other person’s mind, then, yes, the world will change. And what exactly do you expect us to “go out” and do? Protest? Visit the “Bureau of Stuff That People Think?” I mean we ARE doing things to change the world.
The term “Social Justice Warrior” may have been around before gamergate, but it was mostly a term used on tumblr by MRAs. Gamergate made it into a popular thing to call people as a form of belittling them and making them feel unimportant and dramatic when they try to call others out on their bullshit. (eg: “Please don’t say that kind of thing, it’s offensive.”
“omg shut up you stupid sjw you’re overreacting, it’s just a joke wow”) The people who think that “most sjw are extremists” are the people who are not advocates for change. Or they are not educated about the social issues we’re fighting for.
It’s been around for years before GamerGate was a thing. Never really paid too much attention to it since I wasn’t really big on the social justice scene and left it to people who were and knew that stuff way better than I ever would.
As for it’s use by Gators. I think you can safely chalk up their usage of SJW to be about as correct as their use of Gamer, Ethics, Morality, Objective, Unbiased, Neutral, or Journalism. They kinda suck across the board.
This. SJW can be roughly defined as “person with an opinion on a social issue I don’t care about,” with the connotation that this makes them automatically wrong.
I don’t think that’s right. I would define an SJW as a liberal activist with extremist tendencies. Of course, then people can argue all day about whether something is extremist or not.
No leslie, you are being too soft, smash her ass; put her down and in her place. This is the time you’re suppose to teach her a lesson, come on les!
Leslie is here to teach “Gender Studies” to a whole class of people, not “don’t cross me” to one person
Professionalism dictates not wasting words where they will come to no effect.
Do you really think “smashing” Roz (I’m going to assume you aren’t advocating actual violence) is going to help her grow up and be a better person? Did it help Joyce?
The closest I’ve ever come learning by being “smashed” has been exactly the kind the of pointed but NOT hate-filled rebuke that Leslie just delivered to Roz. Shame can be useful in small doses, but the idea of psychologically destroying people to fix them is … pretty damned horrible …
Where does it stop? Mass reeducation camps for everyone? Maybe we can throw in a side of slave labor to work off our (yes pretty much all of us get to go eventually) debts to society …
Leslie played it well. “Smashing” someone should be a last resort, not a first strike. Leslie has no more right to hurt Roz for the sake of hurting her than Roz had to do the same to Joyce.
Well, I think it DID help Joyce in this particular instance. I have to agree with you on the rest of it, though: it hurt her horribly at the same time because Roz lost her temper and her patience. That whole second thing is exactly why we shouldn’t go “smashing” people to teach them, in the way you perform surgery with a scalpel rather than a cleaver.
Leslie’s lesson helped Joyce a great deal, yes. Or it would have, if Leslie had been permitted to complete it.
Roz’s ‘lesson’ was the equivalent of a curbstomp. Never helpful, just violence being dished out to 1) make the attacker feel superior and 2) display that ‘superiority’ to an audience.
^ This. Joyce did have a couple of realizations that sent her in search of Becky, but she would have probably gotten a LOT more out of the lesson, and potentially had immediate access to MORE resources to help her, if Roz could have STFU when she was told to. Her ‘curbstomp’ effectively stopped Joyce’s learning in its tracks and disrupted a potentially helpful lesson for the rest of the class – who knows who else in that class was also suffering in silence but was afraid to speak up at all, and were grateful when Joyce spoke up because they desperately wanted those answers themselves? Of those potential students, how many of them now will NEVER speak up again, because they don’t want to be curbstomped in a similar manner by Roz or someone like her?
besides Les would never smash a student. she’s not Peggy or Jason HI-YO.
…why do people think that the best way to teach somebody a lesson is always to drive it through their head like a spike?
That’s actually how some people learn, I know people who never got the lesson until it hit them like a train crash. Friends and family kept telling them what would happen if that person continued, but the person never learned until the not so friendly lesson. Hit them.
Roz, your SJW is showing. Sit down and learn something, for once.
But Roz has nothing to learn! She said so herself!
I honestly wonder why she’s even taking this class given her beliefs regarding its usefulness to her. I suspect it’s either a required prereq for a major or other classes that interest her, or she (like Walky) is there for the ‘easy’ English credit.
Wanna-be major or minor who thinks she should have placed out of 101. One of the most annoying species out there.
Considering her activist leanings, I’d be willing to bet it’s required for her major. Most likely, she wants to major in something that would require the course, and the reason she’s such a nuisance is because, as she stated, she ‘could teach it’. She probably thinks she’s above the class. There were people like that in some of my lower-level drawing courses, Art Majors who didn’t understand why they couldn’t skip the introductory courses and get into the more advanced stuff, just because they’d been taking art classes their whole lives/were in advanced placement in high school/were clearly more talented than anyone else in the Drawing 1 class.
My gender studies classes had a lot of Roz-esque people. The course was a requirement, but they acted like they could just coast through it because they already knew everything. That attitude usually changed after a couple classes.
She’s not taking the class to LEARN from it, she paid to teach the class.
David stated here on the tread that Roz is straight, her porno videos pretty much enforced that impression long before he had to say that though. And yes I know, just cause she made porno videos doesn’t mean she can’t like other ‘flavors too’. But I think maybe that’s over-explaing a simple situation.
Leslie’s got the hots for Roz’s older sister Robin whom she met in her class room one day when Robin was visiting in her role as Congresswoman or Senator or whatever she was. So, yes Leslie ‘knows’ Roz, slightly, in a context outside of the classroom.
The reason people feel the need to “over explain” is because it’s really annoying how many people in the comment section for a while now has acted like bisexuality doesn’t exist.
I knew Roz was straight for a while now but it really doesn’t stop it from being tiring to see that all the time, when people say stuff that directly dismisses bisexuality.
That reminds me: what is the difference between bisexuality and pansexuality?
I’ve met people with different definitions, but I always considered it that bisexual people would only be attracted to people who were either traditionally male or female, where pan-sexual people are attracted to people regardless of gender or how they express their gender.
But if someone uses the expression for themselves and have a different definition than mine I really don’t mind and I take their word for it.
Hmmmm…
I’m attracted to femininity – I don’t really care what is or isn’t swinging between someone’s legs.
I guess I’m pansexual then? Femsexual?
Oh god this was so much easier when I was young and there was just gay and straight aaahhhhhh
The default I’ve seen people go for in this was to adopt the admittedly widley-encompassing label of Queer. If that works for you, I say go for it, and don’t worry so much about the specifics of the label. You know what you like, you can find some of that that likes you back and the rest is just semantics.
I think it’d be completely fine for you to identify as pansexual if you feel you relate to it the most and I can see why you would. 🙂 But like Insanenoodlyguy says you don’t need to force a label on yourself that you’re not completely comfortable with and many people use queer and like that expression best, so it’s up to you for sure.
Yeah, rereading my comment, I’d like to clairify that the last thing I’d want is to tell you your label, The Thing. If Pansexual/femsexual works for you, that works for you and that’s what matters. Just hope your not stressing over it.
I have also heard some people say that, since gender is on a spectrum, there are obviously more than two genders, and bi means two, so a bisexual person is specifically attracted to two genders, not necessarily male and female, but any two specific genders on that spectrum. Pansexuals, on the other hand, are attracted to the spectrum as a whole? That was how it was explained to me by a friend who identifies as bisexual. He thought he was pan for a while, but realized that there were really only two specific gender expressions he was attracted to.
You are who you are, you like what you like. Words are just words.
The “official” definition of bisexuality is “attraction to your gender and one or more genders,” whereas the definition of pansexuality is “attraction to all genders/regardless of gender.” It has nothing to do with the gender binary, although many years ago the term pansexuality was coined to indicate inclusiveness of trans and nonbinary people. But these days neither one necessarily indicates an attraction to binary genders only, and people more or less just choose whichever term works for them. I identify as nonbinary gender-wise and am attracted to people all across the gender spectrum and I consider myself bisexual because it has a bigger history/community.
Sorry, that misconception just really gets me, especially because it results in a lot of pansexual people calling bisexual people transphobes.
I wouldn’t do that, I don’t mind any way people define it, it’s just how I define the expression in regards to myself that I gave, but I’m really not critical of other people’s definitions, I think people should just define themselves how they want and I don’t assume other people have the same one as me, or that if they call themselves bi or pansexual it means they have to be the way I imagine, I’m really not that closed off about it.
I understand, I meant that the misconception makes other people think it’s okay to accuse us of such things or make assumptions about us. That’s why it bothers me.
According to wikipedia it has no gender restriction at all, while the word bisexuality inherently limits itself to the traditional two gender concept.
You can ask any bi or pan person and probaly get a different answer to this lol. For me personally there is no difference between the two because I define my bisexuality as being attracted to both my own and other genders. But there is always gonna be ‘but bi means two!!!!’ people, who have more restrictive ideas and define it as meaning only being attracted to men and women, leaving other genders out, and that’s where the idea of pansexuality comes from, which is attraction to all genders (and agenders and everything in between).
I don’t really care for the gender binary, so I don’t like the ‘men and women only’ definition, but that might just be me. Also I often get ‘then why don’t you just identify as pan?’ from people and I’m like… because I don’t want to? I’ve happily identified as bi for 15 years now, so I don’t really feel the need to change that. I am happy with my defintions. For me. Y’know?
…. and I’m aware that was a very long answer, I’m sorry xD
I don’t know what ‘bi’ and ‘pan’ really mean, and I don’t know how they differ. I identify as ‘bi’. Other people identify as pan. I don’t know why people feel strongly about one word or another. When I meet someone who feels strongly, I’ll ask them to explain their reasoning to me; until then, I’m not worrying about it because I’m too ignorant to make any kind of reasonable guess.
It would be nice if someday people would stop trying to force labels on people who dont want them.
To me, Pansexual (which I identify as) means the body and gender of said body is utterly irreverent .
As a bisexual, I thank you for this comment.
This may be a stupid question but Why is Roz being so nasty? Joyce has said ignorant and hurtful things, but it seems like Joyce’s change of heart made her especially angry.
Personally I think its just youthful arrogance. As has been mentioned before, we’ve seen Roz make claims about how she already “knows this subject”. When Dorothy brought Joyce to the party she said “maybe she might learn something”.
Making statements on the treatment of gays would certainly fit in that pattern.
She tried to tear down someone who’s legitimately a good person at heart and is learning to be a better person, then got called on her bullshit, and when she tried to double down, got called on it again. She finally realized double-doubling down wasn’t going to work to boost her ego or her reputation, so she stomped off in an embarrassed huff.
When she comes back with a hotdog inside her, what.. what do we do then?
I think Roz thinks she should get the attention for being a good person rather than Joyce switching to one.
Hmmm, so in this metaphor, Joyce is the new baby getting all the attention and Roz is the older child thinking that it’s not fair.
IS Roz the yongest in her family? She may just be suffering from #YoungestSyblingIssues and need to get over it.
Maybe? We know the sister we’ve seen is older, and I don’t know of any other siblings.
You all forgot Riley? My avatar is sad now. 🙁
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/rapport/
Oh wow. How could I forget that?
Riley’s younger than Roz.
Don’t think she is. In an earlier conversation she mentioned having other siblings besides her Congresscritter sister. (She complained that if her parents just used condoms she wouldn’t go bankrupt buying christmas presents every year.)
That suggests that at least some of her siblings are younger than her.
Somebody yesterday or the day before cited “the prodigal son” which I think might be the more apt comparison here.
Roz doesn’t know Luke 15:7, I take it?
Roz is angry because Joyce expressed anger at something that was a logical consequence of several beliefs that Joyce has been expressing. How can something Joyce has known for many years provoke sudden outrage?
Cognitive dissonance. It’s a magical thing.
That would actually be good. I happen to think Joyce was just angry because an avenue she could have used to help Becky was unavailable.
Could be that while she might have considered homosexuality as wrong, she was never really to what the ultimate result of such bigotry would be.
Its possible that within her family’s social circle, no other people have come out as gay prior to Becky. (perhaps all the homosexuals are closeted, or maybe they just have a small enough circle of friends.) So, she might never have witnessed someone being expelled from their family, or subject to abuse in an attempt to ‘correct’ them.
Well, we just don’t know! It could be superiority, like the anti-Roz people think. It could be that she’s seen people like Joyce have these revelations and then quickly reject their own part in it. It could be she’s having a bad day and lashing out at Joyce. Until we get more information, we’re not sure (though we’ll sure act like we are in the comments section!)
The answers are at least 24 hours away, but our emotions are here now, and very loud. It is a conundrum.
And the people who do know are banned from spilling. Which is good, but still…
Two reasons as I can see it.
One: She’s seen people use their religion as a shield to hide their own bigotry and antics. Joyce blaming the church for trying to forcibly anti-gay people, while she’s still “Dating” Ethan, could have hit the angry rant button.
Or Two: she’s a “Social Activist” (Note the qoutes!) and Roz herself uses that platform to get her shaming lady-boner off. Otherwise known as “Tumblring”
Roz doesn’t know about Ethan, though. She knows nothing of Joyce outside of the classroom and has nothing to base her judgement on but speculation (and possibly past experience with people other than Joyce).
Roz’s every interaction with Joyce makes it very easy to guess that Joyce is treating non-hetero people unfairly due to her beliefs. Roz is correct on that, but it’s still probably unfair of her to assume it without actually witnessing it.
A poor upbringing : /
Whoomp there it is
Leslie is still, and forever will be, the best. It’s good to see that some things don’t change ^^
Always? BECAUSE OF ANOTHER HER SOMEWHERE ELSE SOGGIES MAY RULE. SOGGIES. MAY. RULE.
I believe you’ll find that Dina was the tipping point there.
Well, yeah, but if Leslie hadn’t been coerced into getting all that diversity, Dina never would have been summoned to become the tipping point.
Like hell they will.
I’ve seen the word “teacher” used in excess here in the comments. I think it is also important to remember that this is a college classroom. Leslie is the professor, not just “teacher.” As such she would expect her students to act like adults no matter what their age. (I say this from experience, I’ve been to college, I have a BA).
In a college classroom everyone, no matter what year they are in, or how many credits they have, or even how old they actually are is expected to act with a certain level of maturity. The moment a student shows that they aren’t on that level the professor generally will do what they must to keep that student’s inability to function on the collegiate level from disrupting and effecting their short class period.
In this case it is reflected in Leslie’s choice to have Roz leave the classroom. Roz has shown that she is unable to maintain the minimum level of maturity in a collegiate setting by verbally berating one of her fellow classmates in a vehement manner regarding the subject matter. (Regardless if what Roz said has some validity to it, the manner in which she said it was unacceptable.) Although Leslie seems the type of professor to genuinely care for her students she cannot allow that kind of behavior in her classroom. Even more so considering that the topic of discussion is such a touchy one.
I need to proofread a little better before posting big essays like this.
**affecting, not effecting**
That is a damn good point.
As a college prof, I agree that Leslie was totally justified in kicking out Roz. But losing her temper like this with a student was probably not the best way of removing her while maintaining her authority.
There is also a certain difference between a school teacher and a college/university professor. At least in my country where I study. Namely that a teacher has (ideally received specific training to educate pupils and if the children aren’t learning it is (in theory if not always in practice) the teacher’s responsibility. A professor is someone the colllege or university hires (ideally) because they are considered to be experts at a particular subject, but they aren’t required to have a teacher’s education. They’re paid to speak before a group of students who decide for themselves if they want to attend class and if they’re not learning, it’s their own responsibility, not the professor’s. Of course, that doesn’t mean the professor doesn’t feel responsible, especially if they have a background as teachers, but the role is different.
College educators (teacher is a common shorthand for “person with teaching responsibility”) try to move away from that mindset for the simple reason that a more involved teaching strategy works better in terms of how much the students actually learn. Compare Leslie to… whatever his name is, the math teacher Jason and Penny TA for, and you have a good in universe demonstration.
I don’t think anyone has argued against Leslie asking Roz to leave the class room. That was the right decision even if she could have done it slightly differently (as argued by several people elsewhere).
Joyce has been home schooled for 18 years of her life. Her beliefs were solely determined by her parents. She wasn’t allowed to even ride a friggin’ bike outside her neighborhood till she was 16. So yeah. Joyce does deserve a pass.
I don’t understand why Roz is so bitter about this. At least Joyce is growing.
On a somewhat related note, I wonder how Joyce will react if she finds out about Jocelyne.
Well to be fair Roz knows exactly none of that.
I wonder if that stuff would matter to her anyway. All the things about how her beliefs were determined could probably be said about her parents too, right? How many people here are inclined to give them a pass?
Joyce deserves credit not because her beliefs were pushed on her, but because she’s a good enough person to have started growing through them. But she’s still starting; she’s applied at least one harsh judgment or stereotype to just about every person she’s met in a new demographic.
You’re right, which is further reason why Roz shouldn’t be making judgement calls on Joyce’s personality and background. Everything she knows about Joyce is what she’s presented in class; she knows nothing of Joyce’s repressed background and has not been present for any of her character development. Yet Roz speaks as though she has personally witnessed Joyce toss a gay person to the wolves.
I think the Roz thing struck more true for me is because of Ethan.
If Joyce hadn’t been trying to start her own one woman de-gaying center with Ethan, I’d not have wanted to throw a book at her head for throwing the church under the bus for something she herself was happily willing to do herself.
Roz is a hypocrite, but so is Joyce. Joyce is working on not being one, but thinking that changing absolves you from critique just.. irks the hell out of me.
“but thinking that changing absolves you from critique just.. irks the hell out of me.”
When has Joyce said that she thinks changing absolves her from critique?
Nah, if Joyce thought she was absolved from critique, she would have just ignored Roz’s. Joyce just sort of forgot she was still open to critique.
Joyce, changed?: “I am so angry at the church!”
Roz, critiquing: “You’re no hero. Until today, the church was you!”
Joyce’s face, critiqued: “ohhhhhhhhhh. dang.”
Nah I think Ghola is likely responding to people in the comments who are defending Joyce by saying “But she’s changing!” Yes she is, yes she should be commended for it, but she should not be absolved from critique.
(Then again I’m not Ghola so I may be misrepresenting their comments.)
*Passes the E-man an ‘Honorary Ghola button*
That is basically what I meant.
And for in-comic irking:
Everyone but Bean is wrong.
Joyce is wrong for throwing blame at the Church, and not at the people (including herself, albeit not intentionally) that use the Church for bigotry. She’s hiding her own shortcomings by throwing her finger at the church and yelling “THEY MADE ME THIS WAY” and that finger pointing *infuriates* me.
Roz wasn’t wrong in pointing out that hypocrisy, or for yelling at Dorothy for putting her head in the sand in regards to Joyce’s issues, but she picked the very worst way, time, and place for it. While probably fueling that anger with her own internal issues, which is also bad.
To be fair, what Dorothy said was essentially ‘Hey, let her learn’. Which is in no way putting her head in the sand about anything, it’s simply an acknowledgement that this is a class, and people should be learning.
You sound to me like you think Dorothy should have joined in on Roz’s bullying and vilifying of Joyce.
since I can’t replay to anonymsly for…whatever reason.
I think she should be more proactive in poking Joyce bout her choices. Things like Ethan, and the sexual assault.
Not in an “beating over the head” way, but doing more then just shrugging your shoulders and hoping everything works out. Or blindly supporting each choice they make regardless of how you feel about those choices yourself.
It just seems a bit halfassed, or fair weather friend-ish. There’s letting your friends find their own path through the mine field, and there’s watching them run screaming into one holding a magnet you know?
@Ghola, this is a perfectly natural part of the strip – when the thread tree gets too long, you loose the ability to apply to ones a certain level out. I assume this is to prevent everlasting directory generation and to make cleanup easier in the case of a deletion.
Also @Ghola: I’ll give you the Ryan incident, but Dorothy literally found out about Ethan’s gayness at-most-but-more-likely-less-than an hour ago, assuming she’s smart enough to put the pieces together (which isn’t unreasonable). But then Walky mentioned Becky so conversation followed that tack for a while. And then it was then drowned out by the whole “ALL HAIL SATAN” thing. And then class started so it had to be put on hold for a little while. And THEN Roz slammed Joyce for her epiphany so Dorothy has to make sure Joyce has calmed down enough before she can tear in in turn without, actually, y’know, tearing in. Dorothy’s conduct regarding Ethan is understandable.
To be fair, as others have pointed out, Joyce didn’t think what she was doing was wrong (which it was). Ethan was not only totally on board with the idea, he expressed the desire to stop being gay before she suggested ‘fixing’ him. Does that absolve her offering it? Of course not, but again, she didn’t think it was wrong because it was what Ethan said he wanted. Joyce is only now realizing what an awful thing she did. Notice her expression in panel three of “Faith-Based”; she goes from sadness to anger after Leslie mentions the ‘rehabilitation’ thing. I could be wrong here, but placing that expression after that word seems to imply that she’s angry at herself. Joyce is trying to correct some of her hypocrises, even if it’s a very bumpy road. It doesn’t excuse anything, but it’s progress, and that’s important.
“Well to be fair Roz knows exactly none of that.”
And that’s why Roz is being a real small-drum.
Suddenly I want to use the whole range of percussive instruments to express a person’s level of unpleasantness.
Mary is a timpani or maybe a gong!
Given how Joyce has reacted to Sarah (the first black person she ever met and her beloved Big Sis), Dorothy (her beloved and atheist best college friend), Billie (one of her other best friends), Ethan (a boy she cares deeply for and she is trying to help in exactly the way he’s asked for), and Becky (her dearest childhood friend and lifelong best friend who is also a lesbian), I suspect Joyce will react to Jocelyne with love and support after the thirty seconds it takes her to adjust to the idea.
Maybe longer than thirty seconds, considering her initial reactions to most of the above took a few days for her to get over. She’s still pretty much 100% going to accept Jocelyn though– her greatest characteristics are her surprising openmindedness and the kindness it springs from.
And this is why You don’t change people by yelling at them. Both parties get overly emotional and no one ends up listening.
WOO! Go, Leslie! 😀
Getting Roz to check her privilege is quite the accomplishment!
We so need a new term for that…
Anyone notice that there might be a bit of hypocrisy on Roz’s part?
On one hand, she looks down on Joyce for her association with a bigoted church, as well as Dorothy for being an enabler for Joyce’s bigotry. However, she freely associates with Joe, even though his attitudes are seen by some as less than enlightened (sexually objectifying lesbians, etc.)
“Hypocrisy is often cloaked in Self-Righteousness.”
~ Voltaire (or at least attributed to)
Man, i have been waiting for panel 3 since Tuesday. Shame that Roz is too hot-headed at the moment to let it sink in.
The one rule of being an ally is to never let your principles become more important than the people you want to defend. If you have to shout down an LGBT people in order to perform your ‘activism’, then you’re doing the same thing that the bigots are doing: ignoring the opinions of the oppressed. That’s what it all boils down to.
The problem with Roze is that shes judge an individual without knowing it. The worst Joice has ever do is going for “condemn the sin, not the sinner” aka “being gay is as bad as lying”, which is not good, but even then she reformed from this kind of thinking.
We directly saw that, put in as situation where an acquaintance turned out to be gay, she would welcome her with open arm.
You simply don’t judge an individual by the actions of a community they belong to, but only by their own decision.
Roze outright say make accusation in the second panel she doesn’t even know if they are true and we reader, outright know they are false (I don’t think Joyce ever shouted on anyone). I don’t know where the inner anger from Roze come from, but she directed it to the wrong person.
That’s a damn lie, the worst that Joyce has ever done was have Joe Physically assaulted on their date.
slapstick comedy doesn’t count.
I don’t think that was played for comedy.
Also, if we excused everything used for comedic purposes, where do we draw the line?
To our own tastes? IT the writer who dry the line. It’s the audience who decides whether or not they want to see it.
Example: David Willis want to make porn with his IP character. Previous fans of those said characters don’t want to see them doing Hanky Panty.
It’s Davis right to make porn of it and it’s those fans right to not go see it.
I think I get your point, even through the auto-correct haze, but I’m not sure it was the point I was making. Let me try again: When Joyce beat up Joe, he got hurt, physically and emotionally. Later, Joyce defended herself by saying it was impossible for a woman to hurt a man, (which is an utter myth and a very damaging one at that, but that’s another argument), but the point remains that Joyce physically and emotionally hurt a fellow human being with the intent to cause harm. If you consider that slapstick, what else do you consider slapstick? I’m pretty sure we agree the line puts Ryan on the “not funny” side, but I’d like a bit more room between “attempted rape” and that line than “assault and battery” would put.
Most of the professors in theri head at that moment: Yes finally they are taking the hint and leaving. Soon all of them will leave and the teaching process can finaly go on unmolested by these meddling students. Seriosly, who the hell had the bright idea to let students into the classrooms.
I like this Leslie more then SP Leslie.
As much as I was pro-roz being a jerk to Joyce, Leslie’s slamming Roz in the face with Truth tickles so many fancies I may need a fainting couch.
Maybe I just like people shutting down other people. It’s entirely possible I’m that big of an asshole.
Ok so Roz wasn’t wrong in what she said to Joyce, Joyce does need to be fully accountable for her actions, Roz shouldn’t be acting like a dick in Leslies class and should listen to Leslie
However Joyce and Roz are quite passionate about their beliefs but are teenagers and gender studies class sounds like it touches on certain controversial subjects which to me sounds like a combination guaranteed to get walkouts every so often
and I wish I’d had a teacher/professor like Leslie
As much as I would have loved having one too, I’m almost positive that I’d have driven a Leslie-teacher insane.
Meanwhile Joe is just in the back, watching pornhub on his phone, muttering about this is why he doesn’t let feelings inside his cold, unfeeling heart.. Which is only used to pump blood into his shwee, and that’s the way he likes it.
Okay, this is gonna be a bit of a teal deer, but I feel the need for it….
We often get a lot of comments here about “Joyce’s background”, usually in the context of excusing some of her more accidentally hurtful behavior.
It’s frustrating that the audience here is less prone to give Roz the same benefit. The two of them are about the same age. ANd yes, Joyce lived in a sheltered environment where all the decision-making was kept out of her hands, and where she had to accept a single interpretation of a book of scripture.
But I suggest that Roz is no less a creature of her own upbringing, and using the only tools she was ever given to deal with a conflict.
Some things we know:
1: Her parents didn’t believe in using birth control. Odds are high that they are either Catholic or some conservative flavor of Evangelical Christian. (Not certain, but high.)
2: She has a large family with numerous siblings, and lots of sisters in particular–as anyone from that situation will tell you, standing up for yourself, aggressively, is going to be important, or else you’re pretty much gonna be the one who somehow never has their own toys.
3: Robin is a political creature. This is very important. If you’ve never been in a politically minded family… the culture is very different. You have to put forward your best, most aggressive argumetns, especially if your viewpoint is in the minority (say, pro-contraception in a Catholic household), because if you don’t, you will get shot down–and shouted down, when looking at the number of people involved. This means that you don’t hold back on the cheap shots. You never take ones that are literally unfair (meaning having no basis). But you don’t worry about couching them in niceties.
And another thing–given that Roz’s position likely frequently put her into conflict with her parents, appeals to authority are not likely to work with her. That’s why Leslie had to get confrontational, here–and note, as soon as she did, Roz backed down, hard. Much like she did in the ‘I hate it when other people have good arguments’ situation.
Because that’s probably literally true. In the family environment I admit I am mostly extrapolating from hints, a valid argument that gets you shot down is a win–and you pretty much have to accept it, if you want to be able to be a participant in the next discussion. And that’s vital if you want to be an active member of the family.
Hell, look at Riley–her politics, as you’d expect of a twelve year old, run more to matters of Count Chockula vs. Boo-Berry, but I can see hints of that same strong will and willingness to advance your case in her.
Roz desperately needs to learn that her home environment is not always going to be how the world works–but give her as much slack as you’re inclined to give Joyce for her own upbringing.
I think where the difference lies is that we see Joyce trying to change, no matter how long or rocky that road has been and will continue to be. Whereas every time someone suggests Roz might be wrong or might not know everything, she immediately goes on the defence. Roz states point blank that she could teach the gender studies class, and when Leslie tells her she can’t know everything, she becomes angry. And it’s blatantly clear Roz didn’t learn the lesson of that class, since Leslie was making the point that you can’t know everything about a person from limited social interactions, and here’s Roz acting like she does know everything about Joyce. To drive this further, when her hypocrisy is called out, Roz storms off. Her expression in panel four doesn’t read to me as “shit, I got shot down”, but rather as “how dare you accuse me of doing anything similar to Joyce”. She looks flat out offended, not like she’s backing down. But that’s just how I’m interpreting it.
Now yes, all this is likely born from her background just as much as Joyce’s actions in the past are. But again, Roz seems to have no desire to learn anything about sex and gender outside of what she already believes. Hell, she’s flat out said that. And this can be read as being quite immature, self-righteous, and arrogant. All three of those things can sit very poorly with an audience, regardless of the character’s motivations or backgrounds.
Really, when you break it down, Roz and Joyce are actually remarkably similar. Joyce is defended more because, as far as we’ve seen in the comic, she’s making an effort to improve herself while Roz believes there’s nothing about herself to improve. We have a limited scope since we follow Joyce’s character development more often, yes. That having been said, the comic has been going on for well over four years and I don’t think Roz has had any actual character development. From an audience perspective, people are going to be more inclined to defend and sympathize with a character trying to better themselves than a character who is stagnant. Here’s hoping Roz gets more development in the future and recognizes her own faults.
Sorry for the rant, I actually think your point is very valid. I’m just trying to decipher why Joyce is generally seen as more sympathetic than Roz.
With luck, Roz will learn one day that it’s okay to be wrong sometimes.
Very well-stated. Plus, let’s not forget that Joyce’s previous standpoint on homosexuality stemmed from ignorance, not malice. I think that society deems the former more forgiveable than the latter. Joyce in general seems to be fearful of those with different viewpoints from her own, but doesn’t bear any ill will toward them. Joyce has said some pretty awful things under the kindest of intentions. While that certainly doesn’t absolve her of blame, it seems more forgiveable than Roz or Mary, whose acts of unkindness stem from anger and hatred.
In short, I think that people tend to like those who are kind but ignorant over those who are educated but malicious. Which is kinda the attitude I take when I vote democrat every year. *Rimshot*
Part of my point is that Roz is probably not used to people who don’t handle confrontation in such a direct fashion. She’s expecting people to push back in a similar way. When that doesn’t happen, she’s assuming that this means she’s winning the argument–because that’s what it’s meant for the past eighteen years of her life. You push and you challenge until you yield.
That’s why I’m putting more weight than some on her decision to leave the classroom. Roz is of a mindset where she won’t just leave the conversation. However, Leslie’s last demand of her was to go–accepting that instruction is, in her mind, conceding the point.
Thanks for two good perspectives, both of you.
That got me thinking – there are similarities between Roz and Dorothy as well. Both are (or wants to be) good allies, both are well educated in LGBT+ issues and both consider themselves smarter than their peers. But Dorothy is genuinely helpful and understanding of people with different opinions while Roz pushes them down. Hard. (thanks for good possible reasons why, Freemage).
Basically, we have Dorothy and Joyce vs Roz and Mary, each neatly fitting a square in the conservative/liberal and understanding/judgmental scale.
And as has been pointed out – Joyce and Dorothy are friends and help each other understand the other’s point of view. Mary and Roz are room mates and… maybe do less to foster tolerance in the other.
There’s still something I have issue with. Roz is abrasive and aggressive? Yes. Roz is “liberal Mary”? No. Mary quite clearly wants people to feel bad and to have bad things happen to them as a result of not living up to standards she decrees. She’s using “the rules” as cover for being able to hurt people.
Roz may be causing harm, but I would argue strongly that we’ve no evidence that’s her intent. Honestly, I’d compare her more directly with Joyce on this. She means well, sincerely, and wants people to be happy. However, because she’s not used to people who aren’t trained at debate, she hurts people without intending to.
You are right. That is a genuine difference between Roz and Mary, and that is important enough for my comparison to break down entirely.
Agreed! Mostly. I had the same response to the “liberal Mary” tag, because Roz just seems to be a self-righteous jerk with a major chip on her shoulder, but Mary is actively malicious.
I don’t think Joyce is the right comparison either though, as I don’t see Roz trying to do the right thing and unintentionally hurting people. Joyce believes (believed?) she knows The Truth, and that everyone else would be so much happier and better off if they knew it too. Roz believes she knows The Truth, and that makes her better than the people who don’t.
I’ve just been flicking back through her tag in the archives and struggling to find anything that wasn’t motivated either by her holier-than-thou attitude (see e.g. every interaction she’s had with Leslie in class) or trying to stick it to Robin (sex tape, interview with Dotty, setting up RobinxLeslie). The only non-self-centered act I saw, as many others have noted, was towards Joyce after the party.
She gave Billie some free condoms 🙂
I think her sex information campaign is largely motivated by helping people. She knows something awesome most people don’t (sex is actually nothing to be ashamed of), and she wants to share it.
Of course, if a photo on Robin’s sister with a dildo on her head happens to show up in social media that would be nice too.
I think Mary may be a good deal more nuanced than that or Roz may not be as nuanced as people think.
Very astute. Thanks for explaining that. I just thought Roz had a stick up her ass.
Oh, she does. @_-
I’m just trying to get at the origin of said stick.
So SJW appears 11 times in the comments. (Now 12) Is it time for a new bongo filter?
OH! OH! Can we call them Banjos?
Pweeeeease?
smoke jaguar warriors?
Sorry, battletech player. 😛
Not quite on the level of calling someone a bongo, if you ask me. Willis acted not just due to frequency of use, but also due to the sexism inherent in how the term is used.
How about SJGWs?
Social Justice Grey Wardens? Anybody?
Watchers on the Wall!
Astronauts.
I approve of this because space is wicked sweet
SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!!!
Someone made a Chrome extension that replaces “SJW” with “skeleton”, so that’s always an option.
WE DO NOT BRING THE SKELETON WAR HERE, YOU FOOL. TO CASUALLY NAME THEM IS TO INVOKE THEM.
Did you know that…
There’s a Skeleton Inside Each of Us, Waiting to Burst Out!
I wonder if Roz will actually get some personal growth in this comic.
Hey, what’s happening? Between QC and DOA, it’s never been THAT dramatic!!!
Something’s in the air?
Eventually this class is just going to be Leslie and Joe and she’ll be sorry she didn’t let him leave when he asked.
Leslie looks guilty in the last panel. I mean, from her perspective, i can understand why. She had to put the moral smack-down on a student. But, really, Roz had it coming. She was being a hypocrite.
Joyce was having a moment of self-discovery and Roz made her feel bad about it. What kind of asshole says “Yeah. You’re learning. But you didn’t learn fast enough, so fuck you.”
There’s a saying I saw somewhere that said “I’m not the person I want to be. But I’ve grown from the person I used to be. And that’s enough, for now.” I think someone needs to impart that lesson on to Roz; the past is the past. Joyce can’t change that, and making her feel guilty about her past (and current) ignorance, isn’t going to help.
I’m just going to say it. If Joyce had her moment of discovery in reaction to something Roz had said the Roz wouldn’t have attacked her. This all feels like Roz is less upset about Joyce’s past self then the fact that Roz wasn’t the central cause of her reevaluating her life.
Now it goes without saying that we haven’t seen a lot of what’s going on in Roz’s life. Who knows maybe some action she’s been espousing as the correct more enlightened path has bitten her in the proverbial tucas and now she feels as close to guilt or cognitive dissonance as she can and in her mind Joyce is the icon of everyone who’s been telling her she’s wrong and it galls her in some way that they might be right so any moment of Joyce growing is met with lashing out.
but barring that I can only say that I feel like it’s simply a case of Roz’s actions not coming from an emphatic place but rather an Ego driven place. That is to say I don’t think that Roz does most of what she does because she has thought about right and wrong but simply because she has created a line in the sand and acts the way she does simply because she’s on one side of that line.
In that way Roz is very much like hyper judgie christian girl who’s name I have completely blanked on. That is to say neither of them concider why they’ve chosen their side of the line they simply act out the part they think they should and do so to make their ego feel better then everyone around them for failing to stay on the “right” side of the line all the while failing to recognize that there is no line.
I’d tell you the name of “hyper judgie christian girl”, but I think it would be better if we all just forgot it. That way, she can never grow in power and cause trouble for anyone anywhere ever again!
clap clap clap
Hyper-judgy Christian girl is Mary, Roz’s roommate.
And I agree that they seem to be, right now, the same character on opposite sides: the hateful, close-minded extremist. Roz has had one or two moments where she’s been more than that, though, so there’s some hope that over time she’ll become less of a mirror.
Heck, the fact that they room together may be causing them to polarize, pushing them away from each other, and towards the radical extremes of their beliefs. Sometimes living with people who are different from you can help smooth your rough edges; but sometimes, they just make them sharper.
Wait roz and mary room together? If thats really true then your theory might just be spot on.
They do indeed.
Also, their roommate-relationship is apparently acrimonious enough that Mary refers to Roz’s whole family as monsters.
And you know, if Mary is a dark mirror of Joyce in turn, that puts a new spin on things, in a way. Sarah becomes the mirror of Roz, and a good example, as Deanatay said, of how sometimes living with people who are different from you can help smooth your rough edges. Roz is getting sharper from close contact with Mary, Sarah is opening up a bit and making real human connections from close contact with Joyce.
Multiple layers in all directions! That’s some good writing.
It’s just like an onion! It even has the tears!
This internet I haz? You won it.
YAY! My first internet! …Somehow I’d imagined there’d be more fanfare. Ah well, you can’t have everything.
There are some pictures of cats if that help? Quite a lot of pictures of cats, actually…
Sorry, sorry, fanfare department is running late! Your fanfare is here now. :3 http://youtu.be/bDa3J2KJqxM
In therapy one calls Roz’s behavior “stuck.” She had something she had to say, and rational arguments for why she shouldn’t say it / shouldn’t say it here / shouldn’t say it now…those got ignored, because she wasn’t having an argument with a present person.
You can tell she’s having an argument with a past person because of her outburst about “having to treat Joyce like a hero.” Nobody suggested that. Nobody even said, “Hey, good point Joyce” when Joyce got all pissed. Or gave her a thumbs-up for saying it. Leslie didn’t say, “I’m proud of you for recognizing that,” or even, “That’s correct.”
Roz wasn’t merely making assumptions about practically every aspect of Joyce’s character. She was also certain she knew how the rest of this conversation was going to go down.
She was stuck in a past fight.
Typically, getting someone out of a past fight calls for a) the end of the fight-in-their-head (just letting them say their piece), or b) a total non-sequitur (interrupting with, “Nice how we’re having weather, isn’t it?”), or c) another conversational tool, such as the one Leslie used here, that forces them to recognize the parameters of the present situation don’t match the past fight.
Very interesting!
I figured the “hero” thing might just be a reaction to Joyce having an unexpected outburst in the first place. The way I thought of it, Roz might’ve been thinking something like:
“Why is Joyce speaking up like this all of a sudden? …So others can hear it.
Why does she want others to hear it? …So they’ll respect her for it.
But Joyce’s church-villainy narrative skips right over her own part in it, like the way a politician would tell the story!”
I have to agree that Roz may absolutely be re-enacting a past fight in her head. It’d explain why Roz is accusing Joyce of a thing Roz hasn’t actually witnessed Joyce doing: treating queer people unfairly. (I mean, Joyce HAS done that in quiet ways, but Roz hasn’t actually witnessed it.) And Roz’s history, from a family that does not share her views and is full of headstrong people, makes it very likely that this is a fight she’s had in the past– but with someone who brushed her words aside rather than actually listening.
5 minutes is really comparable to 18 years is it?
And the straight/gay reference of those left behind has nothing to do with the discussion of Joyce being a bongo so that is out of place as well.
Oh, Leslie knows that. That’s why she looks so down in the last panel. What she also knows is that what she did was the only way to get Roz to shut up.
So tomorrow Joe gets confronted with all the feels he’s been trying to avoid?
More likely it’ll cut to someone else. Team Joyce needs time to find Becky, and everything in Leslie’s classroom has just been resolved. (I thought it would’ve made that cut today and left Roz’s scoldings offscreen, but this was so much better.)
Right now, I’m mostly hoping Dorothy and Walky can catch up with Joyce before she gets too far ahead of them. It’s been a really rough night/day for her, and she’s not really in a good place mentally right now. And these last few days, I’ve been thinking to myself, “All Joyce needs now is for Ryan to show up and catch her alone and it’ll officially be the Worst Day Ever for her,” and I’m really worried that might actually happen now.
I am so in love with Leslie, seriously. She’s the best.
There are always people more mad for the cause than the people the cause is actually for
Oh snap. Go and get the Savlon :p.
One angle I have to bring up is that for a lot of the other students in the class, this has basically been Roz interrupting the whole thing for what looks like a personal vendetta. Like even if you think she was right to tell Joyce off, she was still being somewhat of a jerk to all of her classmates
Oh snap indeed.
And Roz was never seen again. Though some say if you listen closely on the darkest of nights you can hear the sound of bongos in the distance, but nobody understands why.
Methinks the Roz didst protest too much…
Some people thought Leslie was a poor teacher for telling Roz to shut up, but she was disrupting the class with a personal attack and had already been asked several times to dial it down. Given that we’ve established Roz is straight, I guess we need to see why she took such personal umbrage at Joyce (who has actually been doing a good job of expanding her world view beyond her religious teachings).
I’m pretty sure no one has said that Leslie is a bad teacher. I’m absolutely sure no one has suggested that Leslie was wrong to silence Roz.
Me and a few others have said that there are other ways she could have solved this situation, and that this sort of thing is a risk with her laid back teaching style, in short that Leslie is a human and not a perfect education machine. That doesn’t translate to bad teacher. Not only is Leslie the only teacher we have seen who is not actively bad – she is genuinely good.
Ugh, poor Les. Aside from having half her class just walk out, I suspect she’ll be pissed with herself for letting Roz rile her into issuing a personal burn (awesome and well-earned as it was) right after telling Roz she couldn’t do that to Joyce. I doubt Roz will miss it, either.
I may be misjudging Roz here, but I can’t think of anything to suggest she’s likely to take take a personal epiphany from this, rather than doubling down on “that GS teacher is such a fake, privilege-enabling bongo!”
Yup, I think so too. This was NOT how Leslie wanted the situation to unfold.
To be fair, I didn’t take as a personal burn but an attempt to get Roz to just stop and LISTEN.
Unrelated to the comment I just put into moderation, but YAY! I’m not Mary any more!
Oh. Balls.
I was Billie when I was awaiting moderation…
Like Billie, you are your own worst enemy
Except a bit more literally
https://en.gravatar.com/
Not hard
Mary’s kind of pretty though, in an Edwardian way. Shame about her personality; also, I’m Ethan a lot of the time, which is a bit of a bummer (I like the character in the comic, but for the sake of story, not as much his personality)
I see it now. Maybe you mis-typed your email address, causing the comment system to believe you are a different user. It’d explain why it gave you a new random avatar and flagged your ‘first’ post for moderation.
Roz brings up a good point: Where was this anger yesterday, and every day you have known Joyce before that? Until today, didn’t you give her a free pass? Why wait until after she’s learned her lesson to condemn her? I mean what did you want to happen here? What sort of punishment did you have in mind for Joyce, that learning what she’s done wrong is not enough?
But Roz was the one Leslie was condemning, and Roz was condemning both Joyce and Leslie. Also I don’t see Roz having learned anything, so please enlighten me if I’ve missed it (which is possible/likely).
I *think* Jenny Creed is actually reversing Roz’s argument onto Roz herself. 🙂
A free pass for WHAT? Leslie is their teacher. She’s there to inform not be outraged by Joyce’s beliefs.
Too true. I’m studying International Relations right now under a highly Conservative, Christian, very white professor. He’s one of the kindest and most broad-minded people I’ve known; he never attacks students, even when one guy spent a long time tearing into religious people as narrow-minded homophobes who were either all in the closet or out to destroy the world with their ideology (that was the day we found out he was Christian; after asking the student a few questions to try and turn the rant into a more academic disagreement, he remarked that he was a devout Anglican, that he would certainly like to know if we felt his teaching method was in any way oppressive, and left it at that). He also encourages all free thinking, be it even Marxist. We found out he was Republican after we saw him on a liberal talk show, as the Conservative guest speaker.
So yeah, a free pass for what? A good professor allows free thinking, even when it glaringly opposes their personal philosophies.
Well Roz has been angry with Joyce in the past. If Leslie hadn’t interrupted, I’m sure Roz was willing to go on with her argument.
As for why Roz is so aggressive, well, others have better theories than I do. My personal favorite is here. But if you trawl through the comments over the past few days you’ll find a lot more.
Joyce: *Has taken 4 weeks to show personal development in a class, which she openly states she might walk back later*
Readers: ohhh yay joyce it is so great that you’re ~~learning~~
Roz: *Is in the middle of being angry with someone and in the heat of the moment gets called out righteously and doesn’t react perfectly in the next five seconds*
Readers: wow Roz you are a terrible person you never learn anything
Any particular reason you posted that reply to this comment? The E-man linked to one of the more egalitarian fan-theories regarding Roz’s attitude to Joyce, basically stating that she was a product of her environment as much as Joyce was, and on top of that seems to be giving Roz more support than you’re implying. If you’d posted straight or to a more acid comment, I’d understand better, but I’m a bit confused as to your point of doing it here.
My intention was to point out another issue with how roz had been Treated by other commenters, as a supplement to the perspective E-man provided, if that makes sense?
Ooh, that’s a very good theory. And I’d completely forgotten that Mary rooms with Roz, which probably hasn’t helped.
Roz she really reminds me a friend who got upset that she wasn’t invited to an event held by her (progressive) church for LGBT people – it’s great that you want to be an ally, but part of that means you have to sit down and listen and realize that it’s not about you.
Wait… Doesn’t Mary get a room to herself?
No, that’s Carla.
Oh. Does Carla get a room to herself because she is agender and thus can not room with a member of the same sex, male or female? (Although I would have thought agenders would be able to room with anyone, but I guess I’m wrong.)
She’s trans and transitioning (I think), meaning she doesn’t want to room with boys and can’t (yet) room with girls. She is asexual though.
It’s worth noting that Dorothy HASN’T just let Joyce’s views and opinions slide. She hasn’t been confrontational about it, but she’s not afraid to share her own views with Joyce (for example, the fact that she’s an atheist), and she does it in a way that helps Joyce realize that the people she’s been taught to vilify are still people. The only time she ever really backed down was when Joyce’s parents were upset with her.
Almost all of Joyce’s friends are continually challenging her views, whether they mean to or not. Think of Billie and her “I think we all try gay stuff from time to time” comment, or every time Sarah calls her out. Heck, even Walky’s first conversation with Joyce criticized her worldview (though not in a super helpful or productive way).
Damn, sick burn, Leslie!
Not that Roz didn’t have a point yesterday, but Leslie also has a point. If there’s no room for anyone to learn, why the fuck are they there?
Fuck you Roz, you small drum-set.
You know fuckall about Joyce so shut your pie hole.
Also most people are still, relatively speaking, stupid at 18.
You’re a great example of that actually.
To be fair, a lot of people are still stupid at any age.
*takes a deep breath and sighs* Ah… sweet sweet vindication. I’ll expand on this later as I’m currently at work on my phone. Need a full keyboard for this amount of intellectual smack down.
Lay it on us 🙂
I’m disappointed there hasn’t been smack down.
An intellectual masochist? Learn something new every day.
I’m struck by how well Willis gets into the headspace of all the different characters, from dialogue to expression. I understand he’s had years with these folks, but man. They’re alive.
These comments are reminding me of why I have so much anxiety surrounding teaching. I’m willing to bet that all the second-guessing going on here is happening in Leslie’s head right now (and will continue for quite some time).
Joyce is majoring in education.
She’s… she’s gonna have to do a whole lot of growing up before she’s ready to handle students, especially one like Roz.
Joyce is majoring in getting married and never getting a paying job. The education major thing is just a cover.
She’s gonna have a lot of growing up to do before she’s ready to handle parenting, then. Especially kids like Roz.
Oh, that’s easy. You just heap shame on them and then disown them, preferably while hissing like Gollum.
Aaaand the professor loses all credibility
What? How? Because she told a student to get off her high horse and stop speaking over the minorities she was deigning to speak for? She derailed a discussion and made another student cry. She doesn’t even acknowledge that Joyce just saved her from getting thrown out of class. She just keeps grandstanding and telling the gay people in the room how to feel.
What the hell is your standard for credibility?
Contrary to what some posters thinks, Roz lost that horribly as it pretty much put her in her place as far as I’m concerned. Professors, and I work in academia, need to sometimes treat their students as the children they often act like.
Does Roz want an education or not? THEN SHUT UP AND LISTEN.
uh no they are adults and should be treated as such even when they act like a child
You should treat everyone the way they act like they deserve to be treated. Right now Roz is acting immature and self-righteous. I think Leslie responded in the best way possible.
Adulthood is not measured by age or any physical quantity (okay, maybe legally and religiously, but not practically), it is measured by emotional maturity, which often lags far behind physical maturity. When you act like a child, the only way to reprehend you is to treat you like a child. That means time-outs for temper tantrums, like Roz’s little display over the last few days.
She did treat Roz as an adult. A child would’ve been told to get out before Leslie called campus security to haul her out.
Eh? Let’s read Leslie’s face in the last two strips, instead of just the speech bubbles:
“Oh no, Joyce has something terrible going on, I wish she’d stay so we can work on it.”
“Uh? Well…Dorothy seems to know what’s going on, so maybe she can help Joyce…but this is really not ideal.”
“Dammit. This is something so tangled up, even Walky’s messed up in it. This situation is spiraling out of control, and there’s nothing I can do about it.”
“Anybody else hurt by Roz’s bullshit?”
“Dammit, Joe, this is NOT the time for that crap.”
“Fudge on a stick, how the hell do I salvage THIS now, with the problem still yelling over top of me?”
“Pot. Kettle.”
“Dammit. Well, this was a disaster.”
“straight dude”? Suuuuuuuuure Willis. Nobody’s buying it. Its ok bro, this is a safe place, nobody’s gonna judge ya (except Joe)
And maaaaaaaaaaaabe your wife.
Well, being a straight guy is *almost* like being a gay girl, so we’ll let it slide, Willis.
500+ comments today again! I had no idea Roz was so interesting. Thanks for a great discussion everyone.
I think it’s interesting that Leslie didn’t ask Roz to leave. Roz took it upon herself to leave after she was put down rather than deciding to be quiet. I think she didn’t want to deal with the embarrassment of being in class after that but wanted to make a grand dramatic gesture.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/outrage/
Leslie: “Roz! Outside!”
Yeah, then Joyce left, removing the need for her to do so.
yeah because they fundie totally didn’t make a grand dramatic exit
*the
*Was* it a “grand dramatic exit”? Joyce’s body language pretty clearly said, “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to get people in trouble, I feel bad about this whole situation, including what I did before, so I’ll leave now before it gets worse.” Roz’s body language pretty clearly says, “Oh, fuck this, I’m out.” I’d say hers was quite a bit more “grand” than Joyce’s. :/
How so? “Roz needs to leave” was intended both to stop the argument and to be a disciplinary action for starting the argument in the first place. Joyce’s departure only fixed one half of that situation. Roz is leaving now after being sufficiently (though probably not fully) convinced that the disciplinary action was justified.
Honestly, Roz in this entire strip has reminded me of my sister. And yes, we did come from an extremely strict, conservative homeschooling family. But I see this not as a product of that environment (after all, most of my siblings aren’t like this), but more as a product of extreme self-absorption. You can’t hold these kinds of beliefs in a black-and-white, right or wrong world and actually care about other people (or empathize with their feelings). And the defensiveness is because ONLY her feelings are correct and important. She’s gone through so much crap too, because she can’t see shades of gray…got an abortion and all of a sudden “anyone who keeps their baby is an idiot” (said in front of my other sister and her toddler son). I can’t stand being around people like her and Roz, and I wish they would just think about other people for once.
and Joyce reminds me of my sister. The Unaware christian who thinks love the sinner hate the sin is valid and makes up for the fact that shes a bongo
It makes me a little uncomfortable that Leslie “wins” this argument with an appeal to her identity. I mean, wouldn’t she still have been right to ask Roz to leave had she been straight and Roz gay?
I felt the same way about it at first, but it’s sort of playing into what Roz is doing. Roz is shouting about how Joyce doesn’t deserve to feel good about her recent epiphany because she’s been “shouting down gay people” and Leslie is pointing out that Roz is literally doing that by ignoring her repeated attempts to get her to stop.
I’d be a lot more forgiving of Roz if she actually was gay and saying this to Joyce. It’s one thing to be an ally angry for the LGBT community, but it’s a whole new ballgame to actually listen to this little fundie girl suddenly realize that you’re people too. Leslie would still be right to tell Roz not to harass Joyce in class, but it wouldn’t really be as meaningful.
Yes, but Leslie took advantage of the situation to get Roz to shut the frick up after repeatedly trying, and failing, to appeal to authority. If the roles had been reversed, Leslie might have had to resort to more violent measures.
Leslie did tell Roz why she was wrong multiple times before it got to this point.
“Roz, no. We talk about the material, not eachother.”
“Roz– Everyone. We can’t get mad at eachother for learning the actual curriculum of the class we’re in. That’s kind of why we’re all here.”
Very clearly communicated why Roz was wrong regardless of her orientation.
The final remark is the one that got Roz to march out in a huff, but I wouldn’t say it’s what “won” her the argument. Their relationship doesn’t have room to argue this subject on equal footing to begin with. The moment Leslie told Roz to stand down and Roz persisted, Roz was established to be wrong because she’s not the one who gets to decide how the class discussions are run. Everything beyond that was just Roz digging herself in deeper, putting her foot in her mouth.
That’s legit. She did bring it up only as a last resort.
Roz is wrong. Her feelings are understandable given her interactions with Joyce so far, but her conclusions are false and her actions unacceptable. As has been pointed out, ridiculing a person at a moment of personal growth is the absolute opposite of productive. So is haranguing them in the middle of class. A class that you’re not teaching.
I guess that stuff could be left off as it’s been argued basically to death already, but here’s something people so far seem to have missed: Yes Roz, Joyce gets a free pass. Because you know what that’s called? Forgiveness.
Heh. That’s a loaded word, though. Can you forgive someone who hasn’t asked for it? Joyce’s phrasing, as has been pointed out, put the onus for everything on ‘the church’, and took on none of it for herself, no matter how passive and ignorant her involvement with said church was. In many ways, that’s the crux of Roz’s complaint–Joyce isn’t seeking forgiveness, so why should she be granted it? (Note, I can answer that question, actually, but it is a fair one to ask.)
Should a bird kept in a cage away from windows put the onus on itself for not knowing or feeling the experiences of the birds in the tree outside? If it escapes and makes its way to the tree and tries to explain the worldview inside the cage, should it be condemned for being a survivor and not dying from ignorance of a world it never knew?
Do you hear that
Do you hear what Leslie has just done, the acidic whiff that tickles the nostrils ever so delicaTELY
That’s right, it’s a massive burn
Now that the main cast is gone, the background characters will rise!
There’s still Joe, Leslie didn’t let him leave.
Joe will rise!
…One part of Joe will rise!
Congratulations, Mr Willis, on constructing such a fine procrastination enabler!
P.S. Does the Alt-text mean you’re a SJW? I like SJWs!
I wouldn’t say Willis would qualify for that.
SJW often gets tossed around at pretty much anyone into egalitarianism, fairness, tolerance, and what have you, but I think it describes a more militant, abrasive, and downright mean-spirited minority within the social justice crowd.
To put it another way: Social Justice Warriors are to Social Justice as PETA is to animal rights activists.
I’d say Willis more a Social Justice Bard or Social Justice Cartoonist.
I’ve seen some pretty deadly bards in fiction. Now I’ve got a mental image of David Willis bludgeoning a sucker unconscious with a lute, and it is pretty damned amazing.
Except that when using that meaning, “SJWs” are far less common than PETA members. Basically, it was adopted as a sarcastic term by people too lazy to make an actual case against various branches of left-wing activism. I’d compare it more to “militant activist” or “feminazi” in terms of validity, at least at the origins. Of course, the internet being what it is, some folks interested in Social Justice causes decided that being an “SJW” sounded kind of cool, and thus started using the phrase unironically, which just shows how weaksauce the whole thing really was.
Yeah, my mind was boggled when I first realized that “social justice warrior” started out as an insult. I mean, it’s not even “I dislike people who are less douchey than I am, so I will use their label of choice against them”. It’s “I dislike people who are less douchey than I am, so I will invent a label to describe them as totally awesome people”.
Thinking about Roz, I like her a lot. She’s a straight shooter as you Americans say.
As for Joyce, there’s just too much going on in that head to quite know what to make of her. She may come up smelling of roses, she may not.
Who can tell what plot twists the Great Dan has in store for us.
Bongo out.
Great Dan?
I don’t know what it means, but I hope it becomes a thing.
If historical Jesus is in this class, can we have historical Jesus- Leslie bromance again? Please Willis?
historical jesus died 2000 years ago
SPOILER ALERT – Jesus comes back in the final issue. Then things get really weird – there’s a seven-headed beast with ten crowns and a whore of Babylon and seals and trumpets.
I don’t know what the author was on, but I want some.
After the end, a giant blue haired girl is seen laying laterally in an ocean of Tang while a sobbing Asian kid attempts to strangle a red head.
That a new edition or something?
Is Faz dressed in his father’s skin?
If Historical Jesus is in the Dumbiverse I get the feeling he’d be a disgruntled social sciences professor.
Historical Jesus is in the Dumbiverse…. as Actual Historical Jesus.
Actual Historical Jesus did not visit Indiana (although the Mormons disagree).
No reason Joshua Josephson cant show up as a teacher.
He doesnt have to know.
That’s the issue with a lot of people. They think they understand issues that they aren’t part of, and thus that their opinions are the most important. Way to go Leslie for handling things right.
So right. I have a friend who is really set on the idea that LGBT organizations/talks/other forms of relating experiences are a segregation of us people from the rest of society and is adamant that this hurts our position in seeking equality. He is also believes that we are not a victimized group just because NOT EVERY LGBT+ person has been one.
This sort of opens up an interesting question, though: as LGBT people become more accepted and better represented in modern society, will organizations and culture centered exclusively on them be necessary any more?
I think there will still be a place for them for some time to come if only because, no matter how accepting society at large grows, there are still issues, feelings, ideas, etc., that are more easily understood by people going through the same thing.
The alt-text seems like it’s goading us to damn Willis.
I have no inclination to damn Willis over this. I don’t agree with the hovertext (I don’t think him being a straight male affects the message in the least – it’s possible to actually listen and learn and THEN educate others, which he seems to have done, unlike Roz) but definitely not going to throw out a “damn u willis” over it. ^^;
I do want to apologize, though. I just caught up on my Twitter feed after seeing Crazy Dina’s post about Twitter, and I feel like I’m kinda the one that started the over-use of “bongo” and the GG-talk-bait in the comments. .___. Feminists don’t like me for a reason, after all. .____.
Once again, Just because Leslie is right doesn’t mean Roz doesn’t have a point. Once again, Just because Roz has a point doesn’t mean she’s being an asshole and could have delivered her point in a more constructive way.
Ya know if Leslie’s shirt was pink….she’d be cosplaying as Joyce
No, Leslie’s wearing flats, not Uggs. If you want to cosplay as Joyce, you have to wear the Uggs.
I totally forgot that Roz is straight. That just makes her behavior that much more ridiculous.
Dear Roz,
This is what privilege looks like. This is what getting called on it feels like.
It’s time for your learning experience.
Roz is such a YMF. Seriously. They are like that and it’s awful.
I must be getting old because your lingo goes over my head.
I’m still in college …technically… and I don’t know what that means! I’m guessing “Young Male Feminist”, since it sounds entitled, but I’m not sure.
Ah. That makes sense.
Another reason I don’t play the ‘let me tell you how feminist I am’ game.
Google is telling me it means either “young mind fuck” or “your mom’s face,” but neither make sense to me in this context? I’m kind of lost, too. 🙁 (However, I am out of college and I’ve all but quit Tumblr, so anything more recent than a couple of years ago is probably outside my radar.)
It’s Young Mormon Feminist.
It’s Young Mormon Feminist.
YMF?
‘Yo Momma’ Fight?
YMF?
Can we get Ice T in here to translate this?
Every time I read Willis’s twitter, I want to get one so that I can retweet and respond to his comments.
Why don’t you?
Because I don’t need another time suck. Not that it would make much difference I guess, but I REALLY need to focus on homework (Ha – like that’s working!)
I see Roz’s resemblance to Riley in the 3rd panel.
Riley sure is white, blonde, and a lesbian, huh.
I think Willis has given me butts disease; I REALLY am a fan of Roz’s bum in the last panel.
Please us a condom, and dont spread it further.
Ah, cishets…y’all can be awesome sometimes, but a lot of y’all need to learn when to shut up and listen when LGBT people are talking about LGBT issues.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
For some reason I read that as ‘psy-shets’ and I’m picturing a race of psychic Shetland ponies.
…Now I can’t unsee it, and I’m not sure I want to. XD
the comment sections for the past few days have me thinking of manu chao. http://youtu.be/vJMLJVha5sw
oh finally if only people would say this to all the arrogant folk that get over emotional about shit they dont experience
Touche.
Good to know Roz is just as much of an asshole in this universe.
… And this is why Leslie always will be my favorite character.
Is it too late to say “I’m a lesbian and I support this message?”
this is probably one of the best overall strips. it’s so easy for allies to just talk over us while trying to advocate for us. welp