It would make more sense if this was a more immediate reaction from her recent events with Roz in class. I don’t think she would’ve broken things off if it was never said that she was associated to something that harmed him and others like him.
I actually think it’s less a reaction to Roz and more to the whole lecture in general. Initially Joyce looked sad, but when Leslie brought up conversion therapy, her expression changed to angry. Obviously I can’t confirm this, but I feel like that silent panel of her angry, tear-filled face was her realizing that what she was doing was wrong. Then Roz’s rant guilt-tripped her into breaking things off with Ethan immediately instead of waiting until after class.
Actually I’m pretty sure this has been coming at least since her confession to Dorothy about her and Ethan’s relationship, and probably has been in motion since her choice of Becky over her beliefs, you could really see the cogs turning as her world view realigned there.
I’m pretty sure Joyce has been thinking about this since the scene right before Becky even showed up in the first place, even though all this stuff made her more sure about it. Her previous interaction with Ethan was very awkward, and she seemed to start doubting what she was doing, so she asked God for a sign about what to do. That’s when she ran into Becky.
She had the awful, sinking realization that what she had been doing with Ethan was uncomfortably close to conversion therapy. Unwittingly, unintentionally, but still. It’s like the good Jewish lad suddenly realizing that not only is he eating a porkchop sandwich, he’s also wearing a “Belsen Was A Gas” T-shirt.
The meaning in Yiddish is slightly different to the German. In Yiddish, it specifically means a good man (who is assumed to be Jewish since you’re speaking Yiddish).
Trust me, you’re not the only one who has trouble with what comes out of your fingers. (That’s me having trouble with what comes out of my fingers, not my having trouble with what comes out of your fingers, to be clear. Although I do reject both notions. Partially because at least one of those is rape [the other is complicated, so I can’t quite decide how to count it] but also because both of those are Sex.)
Change that probably to “likely”. I find that what we do and do not think of as a bad idea on what to post are based on criteria that are already flawed in themselves. Things that need to be said often go unsaid, while things we really shouldn’t say get past the filters.
In case anyone can’t remember, Ethan is wondering if Joyce is still mad at him for the whole ‘do you see me as someone you can marry?’ ‘….I really have to get ready’ bit.
Dude, spoilers. Give silent props via internet mind link or congratulate him on the current page, but don’t go “back in time” and confirm predictions in the comments. It’s not cool for the archival readers.
V-Day is still WWII though – either when Donitz surrendered Germany, or when Emperor Hirohito surrendered Japan. And then there are parties! And morally questionable photos of kissing!
While it doesn’t have to, it’s pretty rare in my experience for a polyamorous situation to work out long term without at least one bisexual or pansexual member. I could see a poly situation working well enough with those three short term seeing as Amber and Ethan still both have significant feelings for one another, the nature of their history would likely doom such a situation long term but thats not uncommon in poly situations anyway and in this case more likely than not would lead to an amicable end to the relationship. How Danny would feel about/deal with such an arrangement are a whole other kettle of fish.
What you’re saying may be true, but I think what Suitora means is that just because Danny is bi doesn’t mean that he’s poly. I don’t think particularly Danny would handle it well.
Since he thought they were different people, and Amazi-Girl didn’t suggest that she’d be okay with him dating both of her, that doesn’t really say as much as you’re implying it does. At the moment I’m pretty sure the only thing keeping him from dating both of her is Amber’s identity issues.
If Amazi-Girl were to make clear to Danny that it’s not cheating if she’s watching with her hands down her jumpsuit, that might be a different story.
It is totally the same thing. If Danny were polyamorous, he’d have considered asking Amazi-Girl to open the relationship, rather than immediately shooting Amber down.
That Danny didn’t spontaneously and independently conceive the concept of polyamory and take the initiative to propose it to his girlfriend (and, seriously, that’s risky) does not mean that he necessarily wouldn’t be open to the idea if she were to propose it.
Seriously, the dude doesn’t even know what bisexuality is. I’m pretty sure that he’s never been exposed to the idea of a relationship that isn’t either “one man, one woman, ’til death do us part” or “Joe’s chick of the night”. You expect him to just be born with this innate knowledge?
On top of it all, Danny has repeatedly expressed disgust with the fact that Joe sleeps with a different person each night. That speaks pretty clearly of his own preference!
But that is STILL different. Danny would be taking up a full blown, reasonably deep relationship with Ethan along with his relationship with Amber at the SAME TIME and WITHOUT cheating on either one of them. It could possibly work, but I’m not sure any of the features in this relationship are going to be able to initiate a three way relationship, no mater how viable it may be.
Of course I don’t expect Amber to have been. But I’m not the one trying to use the fact that someone wasn’t born with that knowledge to declare that they can never ever be open to the idea.
And, yes, Danny doesn’t approve of the way Joe does relationships. But that’s not what polyamory is. And like I already said, I don’t think he has a notion of relationships that include more than two people that aren’t the way Joe does it.
I strongly disagree. Like Danny I would never cheat on someone I was seeing. Also I assume monogamy unless we’ve had a discussion to the contrary, so I wouldn’t start a second relationship while I was still laying the groundwork for a first. However, when those discussions DID come up, I found that I was open to a wider variety of relationships than precedent would have suggested.
Comparing a stable poly triad to cheating or promiscuity is ludicrous. I know a dozen or so people in stable triads that have lasted over a decade, and the structure of that relationship bears absolutely no resemblance to infidelity or what Joe does.
Based on the difficulty Danny has in coming to terms with his own sexuality, it’s likely he was raised to believe that only liking one gender was the “correct” way to do things. He could have received similar cultural messages about monogamy. Just as a noted preference for heterosexual relationships doesn’t rule out the possibility of bisexuality, a noted preference for monogamy doesn’t rule out the possibility of exploring different relationship structures.
I’m not saying that bi people are always poly, I’m just pointing out that culture pushes both heterosexuality and monogamy as the “default” forms of relationship. Just because someone started out embracing the cultural default doesn’t mean they will continue that way.
Danny certainly has a traditional view of relationships, but that doesn’t mean that he can never be open to anything else. I don’t believe that “poly or mono” is an inborn and unchangeable trait the way, say, sexual orientation is. It’s learned behaviour, down to cultural conditioning, and Danny’s been conditioned hard to find one woman to love forever and latch onto her like a limpet. We saw some of this when the senior Wilcoxen were here for the Parentpocalypse. That doesn’t mean that he can never learn or grow to embrace other behaviour.
Nah, it’d go like
DANNY: Oh, I’m so sorry! That must be tough… My girlfriend left in the beginning of the semester.
ETHAN: Oh… that must have sucked.
DANNY: Well, I have Amber now, and I’m happy with that. …So you’re single now, huh?
ETHAN: Yeaah… but you’re still with Amber.
DANNY: Yeah…
ETHAN: Huh? Why do you look sad? …Wait a minute! Don’t tell me!
DANNY: What? What is it?!
ETHAN: I know what’s happening! You’re flirting with me!
DANNY: I’m not gay! I’m not…!
ETHAN: No! You’re trans, aren’t you? It’s Joc all over again! Oh no!
DANNY: I’m not a drag queen!
ETHAN: So are you…
DANNY: Are… are you?
ETHAN: Yeah
DANNY: Oh god. …take me senpai…
I don’t think Dany’s phobic. I think he’s just clueless. Although if he found out Ethan was gay… THEN he’d probably freak out. (Not because there is something wrong with Ethan being Gay, but because it means Ethan could reciprocate feelings and that would make things AWKWARD!)
I think it’d be more likely that Amber breaks up with Danny. I think they’ll both leave it in an amiable way too. Simply because I think Amber cares more about Ethan than Danny and she’d actually care more about making Ethan happy if she could.
She also seems to be one more meltdown away from concluding that she’s not good enough for Danny. Amber’s already tried to claim that once, but then she started feeling better about herself.
Exactly, that’s why we need to shove her back in the closet with Ethan. He lined his closet with so much heavy duty shit she’s the only one who can free him now.
Grab the spineless guy who wants to be defined by anything BUT his orientation, and drag him to meet the strong-willed girl who wants to be defined PRIMARILY by her orientation.
Are you sure they won’t cancel each other out and both vanish on contact with each other?
Hey, at least it’ll destroy Ethan’s closet. And Danny’s. And pretty much every closeted gay, bi, pan or otherwise-non-hetero-normative person in a five mile radius.
I think Becky will be fine if she walks in on Joyce breaking up with her boyfriend over this issue.
Might sting a bit to discover the full gravity of it, but she’s aware that Joyce’s relative acceptance of homosexuality is like brand new behavior here.
You know, barring any zany miscommunications. Like if she somehow walks in halfway through the conversation and lacking context thinks something entirely different from reality is going on.
Yes but that only served to make a joke, the thing about those wacky misunderstandings that sitcom characters don’t understand is that you’re actually allowed to ask for clarification if you misheard something.
Courage is standing up to the Monster in the closet. Courage is saving the weak from evil. Courage perseveres no matter how terrifying the situation gets. Courage does these things for love. Courage has bad teeth. Courage lives on a farm in the middle of nowhere with Muriel and Eustace.
It’s sweet that Ethan was coming to walk her home. I really, really want them to stay friends after the breakup. Ethan’s interaction with Jocelyne gives me hope for that scenario. I’m super proud of Joyce for doing this and excited to see how it all goes down. I guess Dorothy probably won’t be too mad about her dating a gay guy since she always cuts Joyce a ton of slack and she’ll only be finding out about it as Joyce does the right thing and breaks it off, but I’m interested to see her reaction.
Hes pretty douchie in that hes been:
hiding behind a girl instead of accepting who he is then hitting on said girls brother
hes also been more than forward to his friends boyfriend, the same friend that defended him (at great personal cost) when he came out
Thats some pretty douchie behavior i reckon
His psuedo-romantic relationship with Joyce was their mutual choice, a bad choice, but theirs and I can’t see that it harmed anyone else. He treats Joyce like a friend and seems like he has been more supportive of her than some guys are to their real girlfriends …
The hitting on Joyce’s sister was not a … nice … thing for Ethan to do, but the guy is so massively conflicted and in denial he doesn’t seem to know that he’s flirting … so if we want to be super-judgemental then this is a place to start.
He’s clearly attracted to Danny, but has he done anything to try to turn that into a relationship that would threaten Amber? I’m not sure how you can condemn him for being closeted and for ‘stealing’ Danny at the same time …
1. Trying to change him was Joyce’s idea.
2. Amber has been fairly distant, too. She’s told Ethan that she needs more breathing room after the summer’s gauntlet (plus half the time they see eachother Amber just flips out, not cool (but still understandable)).
3. The thing about being a gay man is that for a lot of us girls just don’t hold our interest and we have a very strong tendency to look past them at their cute brothers.
He’s not perfect, but he still makes every effort to take care of Joyce and Amber, despite them not being hot dudes.
Well to be fair Ethan really wanted to stop being gay at that moment, and there was never really any “fixing” of Ethan done by Joyce. (Well beyond them pretending, and its obvious even Joyce knows its pretend before Becky showed up.) It was a relationship of mutual escape for both of them. It does seem like they’ve developed a strong bond, even if not romantic.
The real thing is that you can’t hold it against someone for being closeted, or retreating after coming out the first time goes terribly. It is a scary world and the only person that Ethan owes anything to is himself in this case.
He may not be a douche, but he’s… something. Never liked him, in either incarnation, and in this universe I can’t just tell myself that it’s just that I’ve no interest in toys.
Seriously, I can’t help but feel sorry for Ethan here, too. He’s no older than any of them and he’s trying to deal with how very conditional his mother’s love for him has turned out to be. Yeah, his mom is an awful, awful person, but she’s still his mom and it’s perfectly natural for him to want her approval and emotional support. She’s made it damn clear that he isn’t going to have anything of the sort if he’s honest with her about who he is, and no matter how awful she is, losing that is still a frightening thing.
Ethan came out, and suddenly his entire life was defined and run by the fact he’d come out – and it was absolutely for the worse. Sure, he’s not being honest with himself, but he’s got just as much right to be tired of dealing with the baggage as Amber has. Doesn’t mean his decision-making skills don’t need serious work, but he’s just as much a dumb eighteen-year-old as any of the cast, and he needs a whole bunch of support he simply hasn’t been getting.
Becky may be happy to define herself by her sexuality right now, but Ethan isn’t: she’s okay, but so is he. If he’s going to feel comfortable with himself he needs someone to prove that his sexuality doesn’t have to override everything else about him. Wanting to be something other than Gay Ethan doesn’t make him a douche, it makes him human, and making a stupid decision about how to handle that just makes him a confused and unhappy one.
Near as I can tell, Ethan’s main flaw is his complete inability to stand up for himself, always favoring the path with the least conflict.
He didn’t even defend himself to his parents when he came out. Amber did. When it was time to pick Amber up for lunch early on, Ethan couldn’t bring himself to be forceful enough to pry her from her computer. Mike did. And now, Ethan couldn’t bring himself to stop trying to “rehabilitate” himself. But Joyce did.
He is a very nice person, but he has basically no backbone.
His main flaw is wanting to bang people that he really, really shouldn’t bang because of the massive amount of hurt, not to mention betrayal it would cause
Yeah sorry about that, I guess because at the time of her and Ethans interaction she was acting like a he and Ethan was attracted to her when he thought she was a he so I described her as he when shes most certainly a she
I’m not sure entirely sure that came out right but hopefully you get what I mean
@Chris – why we need gender neutral pronouns.
@Gig – Yeah, no. Mike X Ethan would not work out – Ethan does not seem like the type to enjoy Bondage.
@Chris – Actually, I could see Ethan X Joycelyn working out. Ethan obviously has attraction to him/her (double pronoun because one is gay, the other is trans), Joycelyn would probably be completely supportive of Ethan’s issues (having escaped that world a while ago) and both seem to share certain interests (Writing! Writing!).
That’s part of why I want Ethan and Joyce to stay friends. Both of them need to get comfortable with their desires – both in terms of sex and what kind of life they want for themselves – and become confident in pursuing their own happiness.
Hmmm, if Danny and Amber come along, Self-Esteem Quest will have a full party of four.
No. The quest will end in a boss fight UNLOCKED after a final training against Mike – the characters will have to defeat themselves for once and for all.
On the other hand, Amber didn’t have to live with Ethan’s parents, Ethan did. Yes, his mother is horrible, but she’s still his mother. Amber could walk away from the situation – she actually tells Ethan that the reason she’s been holding him at arm’s length since starting college is that she’s tired of dealing with the fallout from his coming out. Ethan can’t do that and he’s tired of it, too, only he doesn’t get to take a break from it. His life’s become far harder because he wants to kiss boys, but if he pretends he doesn’t maybe he gets a bit of a breathing space, too. I don’t think that implies he’s totally unable to stand up for himself. It’s more that his life has become far more complicated and painful since he came out, and he’s yet to experience any of the positives. What he needs is a peer group and what he’s got is Mike. Yeesh.
Ethan did break things off with Amber himself, and later stood up to her in defense of his relationship with Joyce (even though it’s fucked up on soo many levels).
I think Ethan’s main issue is that he wants to escape his sexuality, despite Amber’s best efforts.
I’m not so sure Ethan’s “free” though. It’s not like dating was only Joyce’s plan… Ethan wants to be straight for his parents and to not have to deal with how society treats homosexuality
Ethan is deluding himself, a delusion which will die the moment he gets even a taste of guy lovin. I don’t even mean sex, the guy can’t even get near a cute boy without flirting, if he get s a kiss of the cheek or a hand held this delusion will die in fire.
It’s easy to pretend something you’ve never had doesn’t matter to you.
Okay I was kind of rooting for Roz to be the one to find her but this is good too. Looks like Joyce is going to do the right thing. Finally. Ethan can still be there for her as her FRIEND but what they were pretending at just wasn’t right.
OH GOOD LORD, WILLIS. You really are just gonna bundle all the Joyce-related catharsis into one big ball of feels for at least another week, aren’t you?
Well, good for you. Damn you, but good for you. I think my heart can more or less take it.
She is as misguided as Bugs Bunny in Albuquerque, but her innate kindness and surprisingly open mind help her eventually make the right decisions even when they hurt and terrify her.
I read her as someone who is naturally a good, kind, helpful, considerate person who just happened to be born to a fundie couple and that good nature of hers has been warped by doctrine but now has the opportunity to reject that which is wrong and keep the rest of the good stuff
Yes, Mary could learn it. Will she? Doubt it. Mary bought the indoc, while Joyce seems to be fighting it, allowing herself to grow and be a better person. Mary is a close-minded twit- or replace the vowel how you will.
That word is gender-charged and people used it way too eagerly and often to describe Roz a few days ago. So David Willis, fed up with it, set up an auto-filter to replace the word with “bongo.” I find it amusing and now kind of hope there might be a temporary mass autofilter of expletives on April Fools’ Day to change them into Joyce’s versions.
I don’t really see this plan working, now whenever I see the word bongo pop up on someone’s comment I’ll know what they really meant. The word still gets put in our head with or without the censor.
It’s not about blocking them from expressing it so much as it is inviting ridicule upon the people who use the word extensively, as it is unlikely that such people are using free of its gender-charged nature.
Same here. Becky knows Joyce accepts her for what she is.. Moore or less. She told her gay boyfriend to resist temptation. After a lesson on forced conversion, that had to hit her hard.
“Ethan….I missed yesterday’s gender studies, so can I borrow your notes on scissoring? Oh, and I’m totally cool with you being gay now, and are free to go all Korrasami on Danny”
I like to think if she’d run into him there would have been a shriek so loud Sarah and her bat would spontaneously materialise and Amazi-Girl would come running.
Let’s see if we can work out this feels-nado around Joyce, shall we?
Joyce’s best friend confessed her love to her, came out as gay, and is now basically homeless, living in her dorm, and is now AWOL.
Joyce was confronted and berated–IN PUBLIC–as being complicit in the damage that the church-at-large has historically committed against LGBTQ folk.
Joyce is currently facing her fear of violence due to attempted rape.
Joyce is now running into the boyfriend she was trying to convert from his homosexuality, hoping for a chance to absolve herself of her own damaging world view and complicity in oppression.
I sense a serious need for real counseling in her immediate future. STAT.
WILLIS IS ACHIEVING CRITICAL MASS FOR BREAKING-THE-CUTIE. STATUS: DAMN YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Sorry, but I can’t resist turning XOR statements into OR statements. Especially when both options aren’t mutually exclusive, like, say, having a stroke and an epiphany.
And once again the focus of the story shifts away from Roz.. which is fair enough because she’s not a main character and that’s her lot. So of course there is no possibility she could ever possibly learn something from this or become a better person as a result.
The point isn’t that she doesn’t have a story, I’m cool with that. But people here seem to assume that because we don’t see her learning ‘on camera’ there’s no possible way she could be learning.
Case point: The story where Roz talks about how she could be teaching the class, giving Leslie a chance to talk about how you never stop learning. It was a great point, but as the focus then shifted from the interaction between Leslie and Roz to Joyce’s reaction to what Leslie was saying, we never see what happened. For all we know, Roz actually realized that was a damn good point and was a better person because of it. However the default assumption is that Roz is A Terrible Person. Always.
It happened when they were talking about her sex tape and how disrespectful she was being to her sister, to Joe, etc. It happened when Roz talked about the party without realizing what Joyce went through and everyone thought she was fully aware of the attempted rape and just didn’t care. And it’s happening right now.
We’ve seen no change in Roz’s behaviour, she still believes she knows better than Leslie and that she’s morally justified. Until that changes, if that ever changes, she’ll get to grow.
We literally saw her behaviour change with this latest story – she recognized what she was doing and she left the room, even if she was angry when she did so. But that’s cool.
You know, one could argue that from the perspective of people in this class people have not really seen a change in Joyce’s behaviour. We, the readers have, definitely. Those close to her, sure. But not the everyday person.
Meanwhile there is literally any number of possible outcomes to that situation. We didn’t even see Roz fold her arms or roll her eyes or /anything/ after Leslie’s explanation about how learning about feminism etc is an ongoing process. There’s literally no information given to us as readers how she took that lesson, whether it be bad or good. And you’re saying that the only possible outcome of that encounter is that she ignored/rejected Leslie’s advice? OK then.
Erm, are you being serious? I’m honestly not sure. But (a) I really just meant in terms of this storyline, and (b) what a patriarchal way of looking at it, if you are being serious. I’m pretty sure she just likes sex. Also, female sexual liberation.
is joyce finally about to end this mistake of a relationship? good. in the long term that’s the only good possible ending for both of them. Hope joyce gets some help with her trauma tho…
Ya I hope so too, because that’s being brought up every time she’s being confronted on something then entire situation is put on hold and that’s not good if she needs growth.
I like to remind people who think Joyce was trying to convert Ethan to heterosexuality that she was less interested in stopping Ethan’s homosexuality than she was trying to get herself in the stability of a sexless boyfriend/girlfriend relationship as a way to cope from the trauma of being almost raped.
Better analogy: describing a church as a place where terrible things happen to gay people is like describing a mosque as a place where fanatics go before they blow themselves up to kill people. It is tragically true in many cases, but not universal. The fundies are no more the universal power behind Christianity than ISIS is behind Islam.
*TOUNGE BITING!!!!* (See, Crazy Dina does censor things. Although I think this is for the better… But then if I didn’t, I never would have started this anyway.)
As a general rule I don’t take anything said on the internet personally. I’m on enough antidepressants as it is. 🙂 As long as Mister Willis isn’t gonna step in and shut things down…
I would like to point out the following:
Using the terrorist “Muslum” groups in your comparison throws off both scale and legal context. Christian churches are currently allowed to do what they do (Not all churches do this, of course, but a reasonable percentage – hence Becky’s problem) whereas the “Muslum” Terrorists are indeed breaking the laws, not recognized by the church as being part of it, and are likely more evenly distributed.
What’s more, the “Christians” (And I use these air quotes more lightly than I do the ones around the term “Muslim”) refuse to recognize the crimes committed in the name of their religion and treat even bringing it up as a crime.
Not only that, those who go to a mosque right before blowing themselves up are at least sacrificing themselves. The “Christians” at the churches (with the full support of their relative church) are sacrificing NOTHING of their own.
So although your analogy is better, it is far from accurate.
… Wow, that came out a lot better than I thought it would.
Reply for Crazy Dina re:Terrorism vs fundamentalism. You’re thinking too western world/United states. In parts of the world actions we describe as terrorism are actively praised and supported. Violence and discrimination are preached openly without fear of arrest or retribution, sometimes even as a part of government policy. The only difference is the amount of money each side wields, which is a factor of differing economic standards rather than religion.
@Smiling Cat: can you run that by me again? I failed to make sense out of your comment.
Also, I have very little clue as to what is going on out in the world right now. I don’t really have time to spend looking through entire articles right now, especially not when they are often small scale issues or about celebrities, and there are very few media outlets which hold even a little credibility. (I’m working on trying to get some decent news sources so that I can have at least heard of events when they come up, but I don’t exactly have time to spend on doing much more than checking the headlines.)
I’m sorry, but horrible as the homophobic policies in SOME churches are, they don’t quite compare to the likes of ISIS or Boko Haram. Few things can match that level of brutality and barbarism.
The point is less about how bad the bad elements are and more that the existence of those bad elements does not mean the entire group follows that creed.
ISIS manages to override my pacifism. They are an enemy of all mankind and should be hunted to extinction.
Well there’s an important distinction there. There’s a difference between the particular environment Joyce is in, and her experiences, which greatly affects her immediate view. The hardline fundie path literally represents the Church for her, with her only real awareness of other groups being vague and kinda scared.
But I gots ta stick up for my peeps, yo. Quakers represent!
Mary’s congregation believes homosexuality is a sin. Joyce is part of the same congregation.
Joyce brought Ethan to this congregation that believes homosexuality is a sin.
Joyce today realized that she has been directly complicit in the church’s oppression of Ethan’s orientation.
Oh, hey Quakers. If I remember from my history class correctly, there was far less hipocracy with them, and if you found yourself with a Quaker, you could at least expect a standard treatment of acceptance and aid getting the “essentials to life starter kit”. (My words, not my teacher’s)
Joyce chose the church based on the band and the casual recommendation of someone else she just met. She didn’t know anything about the opinions of the congregation. You’re attributing fault when she literally had no information with which to make that decision. It could have been any one of the numerous LGBT affirming christian denominations in the United States and Joyce would have still ended up there based on the exact same information. In fact, the specifics of the particular church’s doctrines HAVE NOT BEEN STATED in the text. All we know about them is that they remind Mary of her church back home, their musical performances reminded dorothy of a wiggles concert, Sierra found the carpets nice, and Joyce thought the boys were cuter than back home.
You can’t accuse Joyce of having forethought and knowledge of this church’s negative stance on the LGBT community when she clearly had neither forethought or knowledge of it, or when this negative stance towards the LGBT community HASN’T even been established.
Joyce has done wrong, but her sin predominantly is one of ignorance, not the malice folks seem determined to assign to her.
the church was “close to what I was used to at home”. Nothing specific. It could very well be, but I hold out hope that it isn’t just so everybody will turn away from Mary when the time comes.
Malice? Where did that come from? Malice is irrelevant. Joyce did wrong, she knows she did wrong, she knows that no number of extenuating circumstances will change the wrongness of what she did, and most importantly she didn’t make excuses. She is owning up to her mistake and facing it straight on, even if it means giving up her safe zone in a dangerous environment.
It really doesn’t even mean that. Very little of what Mary said in that comic was meant as literal truth – she was using it to send a context message to Billie (“I know what you’re doing”). While there probably is a bible study group, they may not be having a discussion on homosexuality. Even if they were, the group may be more open-minded about the subject than Mary suggested (that wouldn’t be a stretch, since Mary’s views tend to the extreme).
Joyce is angry at the churches for refusing to help homeless homosexual people or giving help only on the condition that they “rehabilitate.” She was outraged because this is why Becky has nobody to turn to.
Roz pointed out that Joyce herself has been complicit in this. Joyce realized that she brought Ethan to the church herself.
The thing is that homosexuality and the agenda against it and its practitioners is not the whole of a church, nor universal. While you might say, “Not All Men.” I would point this out primarily for the fact that I got my interest in social justice for homosexualities as part of my church’s Youth Group reaching out to gays who felt abandoned. Charities turning away gay youths is absolutely terrible and should be censored. I quit the Boy Scouts of America because of its policy against homosexuals. However, it’s important to remember the Boy Scouts are more than that and might yet be reformed just like the churches. It’s like Captain America destroying SHIELD. He threw out the baby with the bath water by believing HYDRA made it all bad rather than some bad which needed to be excised with a righteous fist.
I got my Eagle rank in Boy Scouts, hence I stayed in for the long haul. Wasn’t until later that their homophobic policies really began to bother me – when I saw a high-profile case of an Eagle Scout candidate being kicked out of Scouting altogether for coming out of the closet. I’m not proud of tolerating that policy before. Looking back, I wonder if quitting in protest (had I actually realized then how horrible that policy was) would have been a good idea. I… really don’t know.
This is not relevant. Joyce is in the same congregation as Mary, which absolutely does believe homosexuality is a sin, and she brought Ethan to it. It does not matter whether there are extenuating circumstances, whether Joyce knew that what she was doing was wrong, or whether other churches are more tolerant of homosexuality, because Joyce did not bring Ethan to those tolerant churches. Joyce raged against churches’ mistreatment of homosexuals, and it took Roz’s hammer-like words to make her realize that she has absolutely been complicit in it. She is owning up to it now and should be respected for it; downplaying the gravity of the consequences of her actions is the same as ignoring the significance of this moment of her growth.
Once again, where is the congregation’s opinion on homosexuality established?
We know Mary’s opinion. We know she was having a bible study group on the subject (bible study groups, especially on college campus, are not the same thing as a specific church’s congregation). Where is the congregation’s opinion mentioned? If you’re going to say “absolutely does believe” I would like to see proof.
And no, the mere presence of Mary among them isn’t proof. A church’s congregation isn’t thought controlled and doesn’t march in lockstep.
I don’t know about the particulars of church and doctrine, but I believe that Gigafreak is right about Joyce realizing that she had been acting like the church/es she condemned in class, with roz’ s nasty attack serving as a catalyst. Catalyst because it sparked Joyce to huge phase shift whereas roz …not so much. Ironic, since joyce ran out to actually act on the insight, whereas roz stayed, ranting at leslie, clueless that Joyce actually took what she said to heart. Very nice work by DamnYou!
You don’t even have to bring up the rest of the congregation, you can consider Joyce as a representative of “the church”. She said that homosexuality was a sin, like lying, and she hates lying. Ethan was standing right there at the time.
Oh please. Even I went to Summer Blast that last day after I disenvowed it because they were preaching at me. And I didn’t even really care for Summer Blast all that much any more!
Possibly. I’m just noting anti-homosexuality wasn’t some abstract thing certain Christians do, but was partly on Joyce – not to the point of driving people from their homes but certainly more than she would like. She has plainly taken that to heart, and is now trying to make amends.
Joyce has been pretty poor to all sorts of people at first contact. You’re gay? Yet you look normal. You’re black? This other person is perfect for you, they’re also black! You’re atheist? Aaa hic hic hic hic. Where she stands out is not in never doing anything wrong, but in learning and fixing her limitations.
As much as I dislike fundamentalism, I should also point out Joyce is probably a nice person in large part from the way she was raised. The horrors of the world aren’t so much that fundamentalist Christianity is “all evil, all ignorance all the time” but probably 99% “be good, kind, and compassionate to others” with 1% truly toxic hate and ignorance.
Peculiarly, this fits with the “one drop of sin spoils the person” metaphor they’re very fond of using.
Joyce’s adamant determination to do the right thing no matter what is very much a product of her upbringing (as is her often lacking ability to figure out what that thing is)
Of course, it’s not the belief in God which is the clincher (or Dot would be evil) but the belief in treating other people with compassion and love. It just so happens Joyce’s church doesn’t apply that universally, which Joyce realizes is incompatible with those values.
I’m sure genetics plays some role; it probably makes the difference between the Joyces and the Marys of the world. Yet upbringing is nonetheless a huge influence on a person’s character.
I think it’d be interesting to find out Mary converted to fundamentalism from a secular family. Some of the most irritating and judgmental people I’ve ever met didn’t grow up in the environment but came to it later in life. My favorite author, Elaine Cunningham, HATES paladins from D&D because in real-life a relative of hers was a brutal and horrible father who converted to evangelical Christianity–then dumped on his family for the fact they were damned without his religion.
That’s why I dislike the more ‘militant’ atheists. They can only see the bad side of religion, and so attack it relentlessly. Religion isn’t just a bad influence, though.
My sister-in-law is…weird. She’s one of the Bible Thumpers who hates Harry Potter, which is ludicrous. However, it would be ridiculous to say that she’s not a good mother, a loving spouse, and someone who goes out of her way to help people whenever possible.
Alas, yes, I eventually will sacrifice myself and be redeemed. Albeit, the metaphor is messed up a little by my dying act being one of murder. They overlook that in the Force, it seems. 🙂
I don’t know why your reply reminds me of the “if you’re so tolerant then why can’t you tolerate my intolerance” saw, but it kind of does. Not that I disagree, though, I can’t even come up with a hypothetical situation where extremism would be good. Except for the situations where it takes extreme acts to bring the attention of a complacent populace to someth…wait, am I advocating terrorism? Oh man I need sleep…
I find myself wondering why Ethan would think that Joyce would be mad, and I have to go back all the way to October to find the last time the two talked. I know that Ethan’s gay so they’re not fully a couple, but damn it Willis people in relationships need to have communication on a greater than quarterly basis.
I foresee Joyce, after breaking up with Ethan, will return to her room to cry. Becky will return, comfort her, snuggles lead to kisses, passions rise, kisses and caresses become more ardent, clothes come off and … Presto! … the Slipshine episode everyone’s been waiting for. There’ll be so much screaming, someone will call the cops.
Okay, seriously. Keep the SLIPSHINE on the Slipshine please! Some of us REALLY don’t want to see that stuff but are addicted to Willis’s comics anyway.
That’s okay, fleshling Joyce. He’ll still be there for you when he hooks-up with Danny in 20 years. This comic is going to surpass the Walkyverse in longevity, but never get past Halloween.
Posting at 1:30am Eastern, saying it’s 8:30am local, means Eastern (GMT-5) + 7, so GMT+2. Here’s a list of possibilities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B02:00
The comment was posted around 1:30.
Heavy Metal Queen claimed it was 8:30.
Seven hours ahead of Willis’s time zone should peg HMQ at about…England, maybe?
I hope this ends well with Ethan feeling good about his identity, not hating himself even more for ‘ruining’ this relationship.
As for Mike jerk moves, this one has lasted the longest. If Ethan does learn to accept himself I predict Mike messing with someone else in a big way soon.
I use this as a way of illustrating DOA Mike isn’t some sort of Zen warrior therapist but just a guy who enjoys screwing with people in hurtful ways. He’s not Mummy Twilight but Hannibal Lecter.
I go with him being a plot device that somehow gained sentience. But you’re right – persuading Ethan to stuff himself back into the closet, and actively deceive some straight girl to boot, was horrendous advice. Imactually started out reading DoA first, and that particular scene had me peg them both as being horrible people. i was half right.
I read that strip differently, especially since that scene was followed by Mike’s dumbfounded statement right after. Afterwards, it was all “What does your god say about homosexuality/lying?” and “Yeah, Ethan, what is the catch?”
Mike. Was. Being. sarcastic! He never wanted Ethan to pull this crap and has displayed annoyance at it every step of the way. You people just see what you want to see and refuse to listen.
Yeah I always believed he was being sarcastic when he introduced the idea too. But once Ethan actually decided to go along with it he preferred to just let the guy dig his own hole rather than admit he was being sarcastic or try to talk Ethan out of it.
I suppose Joyce completely falling apart is better than HAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOVE JOKES LOL LOVE REALLY STINKS AMIRITE GUISE that literally every other webcomic is pulling.
This is why I think Willis is an excellent webcomic writer. He may not be able to keep a comic going perpetually this way, but it’s better than stagnation.
It literally frustrates me when people use “literally” to mean “not literally.” Intellectully I’m aware that languages change, and words sometimes come to mean the opposite of their original meanings (“with” meant “against” in Old English, a meaning it retains only in phrases like “fight with,” and “auburn” used to mean “white blonde,” for examples).
I still hate being in the middle of the process when it happens to new words, though.
Had Brian Williams been using ‘literally’, he may have been able to worm his way out of his current mess. So hard to tell when that word means ‘actually’, and when it’s just an exaggeration.
Joyce, it will hurt more than you’ve ever been burned and you will have a scar. Stay with the pain, don’t block this out. Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing! This is your pain, it’s right here! Don’t deal with it like those dead people do. What you’re feeling is premature enlightenment. This is the greatest moment of your life, Joyce! And you’re off somewhere missing it. Our fathers were our models for God. And, if our fathers bailed, what does that tell us about God? Listen to me. You have to consider the possibility that God doesn’t like you, he never wanted you. In all probability, He hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen. First you have to give up. First you have to know, not fear, KNOW that some day you’re gonna die. It’s only after we’ve lost everything that we’re free to do anything.
Joyce’s father hasn’t exactly bailed, he’s respected Joyce’s space and decisions (…as long as said decisions included biblical citations), but I’m sure he’d be there for her if she needed it…the problem here is they disagree on what is best for Joyce, and likely Becky for that matter. So he’d be THERE for her if asked, but he probably wouldn’t be there for HER, if that makes any sense.
Though I have to say it’s a bit of a logic leap to go from “Christians doing shitty things in the name of the church and God” to “God hates you, my little chick now fly, go free!”
Or were you quoting something and the reference went entirely over my head? I feel like this is a good example of that thing where a parody becomes indistinguishable from the/a real thing.
2011: Joyce and Joe yelling at each other after their oh-so-lovely date.
2012: Joe being flabbergasted at Danny for not hitting that sweet Billie ass when he had a chance.
2013: Daisy suddenly being interested in what Billie has to say about her Hitleresque RA.
2014: Billie totally blows her sobriety pact with Ruth.
So with this year that makes it 3 very anti-romantic ones, one talking about freak that didn’t happen, and one that… is kinda barely on-topic?
Oh, and for all of you newcomers still trawling your way through the Dumbing of Archives? Spoiler alert.
At this rate, in 2016 Amber’s gonna find Danny in bed with Ethan, in 2017 Faz is going to force Dina into a relationship with him, and in 2018 the government is going to ban love.
Joyce is so infuriating sometimes and then she is so sympathetic. I really, really love how Willis has taken us with her on a journey that is so often maligned and overly simplified. I’m just really grateful that I live in a day and age where I can read and recommend comics like this.
*weeping openly*
you guys can still hang out! He can still be there for you! Platonic love is as legitamate as romantic! You don’t have to go from dating to nothing! Be friennnnnnnddddddssssss
Becky isn’t.more in danger now than this morning. What changed is Joyce’s understanding of gay people’s situation, and that’s what she’s addressing here.
Becky stormed off, angry with Joyce. There’s zero chance Ethan’s going to wander off and become homeless because Joyce is still bearding for him, but a very good chance Becky’s going to leave because she doesn’t believe Joyce supports her.
The WHOLE thing. Why can’t he be there for her? And the rest of the strip. I don’t get a whole lot about romance in general. But especially why he can’t be there… ARGH! IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!
Specifically, she can’t let him be there for here as her boyfriend, both because he’s gay and because she’s been using him as a means of dealing with her trauma without being honest with him about it. He can still totally be there for her as a friend, if she’ll let him, but she’s just recently been forced to admit to herself that their relationship is based on mutually agreed-upon denial.
Well, yeah, either that or Ethan might feel super hurt and walk away before she gets to explain everything. Wouldn’t be a David Willis comic (or any kind of compelling drama) without communication mishaps.
I’ll wait for the next few strips to pass any actual judgement, but I was kind of hoping the break-up would be something that happened on its own time. As it is now, it kind of feels like Joyce is saying this on the way to another problem.
Of course, she might have been looking for Ethan the whole time, and not Becky like we all assumed.
That’s why she freaked out it wasn’t because of Becky. It was because she did realize what she had been doing her whole life and what she was now doing to her Boyfriend. Forcing them into a sexuality that didn’t fit them out of fear.
Ethan is clearly scared of his own desires and Joyce realizes she is just helping him hide in that fear and even feels like deep down she is causing that fear.
Must be the worst feeling in the world realizing you are effectively bullying the person you care about.
About Joyce trying to “help” Ethan with his homosexuality… She hardly knew what a gay person was (and probably had some sort of Pride caricature mental image). And yet Ethan – mr. Man of her marriage inspired dreams – come out to her as gay AFTER they started dating.
Repressing parts of yourself is a fundamental part of Joyce’s brand of religion. We are all sinners. We are not worthy. We have to fight temptation every day. When Joyce offered to pray or Ethan that wasn’t exclusively related to his gay-ness. People like her pray for everyone, especially for herself and temptations of glorious man-chests.
So what was she supposed to think? Ethan clearly wanted to be in a relationship with her, knowing perfectly well what SHE was, and Joyce only knew one kind of relationship (husband-wife-many-kids). He wanted to go to church with her, he wanted to do all the (chaste) girlfriend-boyfriend things, nothing he did suggested he wanted to be gay. Joyce tried to help him in a very misguided way, but it was the way he signalled that he wanted.
Good riddance that they finally break up, though (how long have they dated by the way? Two weeks?), and I’m not surprised that she is the one who ends the charade rather than him.
Pretty sure this is Joyce realizing that yes, its okay to be gay. Becky is, and Joyce justified that. Then with what Sara said…about her and Ethan? Joyce realized she cant make him be what she needs, any longer.
I don’t know. What with how changeable and open relationships can be nowadays, I can see a straight woman and a gay man (or a straight man and a gay woman) in a platonic relationship, where they seek their sexual satisfaction elsewhere.
That just wouldn’t be something Joyce would be down for, at least not at this point in her character development.
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Joyce, what has gotten into you?
Something Roz said perhaps?
I’m going to assume Joyce has been planning this ever since her chat with Becky last night.
All politics and religion aside Joyce just wasn’t gonna let this get between her and Becky.
It would make more sense if this was a more immediate reaction from her recent events with Roz in class. I don’t think she would’ve broken things off if it was never said that she was associated to something that harmed him and others like him.
I actually think it’s less a reaction to Roz and more to the whole lecture in general. Initially Joyce looked sad, but when Leslie brought up conversion therapy, her expression changed to angry. Obviously I can’t confirm this, but I feel like that silent panel of her angry, tear-filled face was her realizing that what she was doing was wrong. Then Roz’s rant guilt-tripped her into breaking things off with Ethan immediately instead of waiting until after class.
This. She clearly had a strong reaction to the lecture before Roz even talked.
Actually I’m pretty sure this has been coming at least since her confession to Dorothy about her and Ethan’s relationship, and probably has been in motion since her choice of Becky over her beliefs, you could really see the cogs turning as her world view realigned there.
Also greetings fellow Rat!
Sarah also nudged her along.
Oh, and then there was Tiny Thunder’s tiny point:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/thunder/
I’m pretty sure Joyce has been thinking about this since the scene right before Becky even showed up in the first place, even though all this stuff made her more sure about it. Her previous interaction with Ethan was very awkward, and she seemed to start doubting what she was doing, so she asked God for a sign about what to do. That’s when she ran into Becky.
She had the awful, sinking realization that what she had been doing with Ethan was uncomfortably close to conversion therapy. Unwittingly, unintentionally, but still. It’s like the good Jewish lad suddenly realizing that not only is he eating a porkchop sandwich, he’s also wearing a “Belsen Was A Gas” T-shirt.
“Good Jewish lad” is such goyish phrasing. Call him a mensch.
…The German word for “human?”
But that should be capitalized, as all German nouns are.
The meaning in Yiddish is slightly different to the German. In Yiddish, it specifically means a good man (who is assumed to be Jewish since you’re speaking Yiddish).
No, it was intentionally, but Ethan was also interested and willing. (Not that this makes it BETTER, but at least DIFFERENTLY squicky?)
Ethan ate a pork chop?
That’s true, but I don’t think she’d be as emotional had Roz not pushed her over the limit.
I think she might have. Joyce doesn’t really do “subtle” or “halfway.” Roz may have pushed up the timetable by less than an hour, but that’s it.
Not Ryan or Ethan, that’s for sure.
I’m not even sure if I even approve of this joke.
You could’ve left the Ryan bit out… Pretty gross.
Agreed
Trust me, you’re not the only one who has trouble with what comes out of your fingers. (That’s me having trouble with what comes out of my fingers, not my having trouble with what comes out of your fingers, to be clear. Although I do reject both notions. Partially because at least one of those is rape [the other is complicated, so I can’t quite decide how to count it] but also because both of those are Sex.)
PMHP!!!!
Um… I tried to look that up and I think what I got was unrelated. Actual meaning please?
Acronym for Joyce’s dismayed cry of “Pre-Marital Hanky-Panky!” Dates back to the early days of the other universe.
Oh. In that case, Kang, Pre-Marital has NOTHING to do with it.
I tend to stay away from the slipshine… even if there are supposed to be good story lines on there. 🙁
“The other universe” means the Walkyverse, not Slipshine. The DoA Slipshine stuff is in-universe (just NSFW & not essential to the story).
Protip: If you review your nascent post, and think “This may not be a good idea”, you’re probably right.
Change that probably to “likely”. I find that what we do and do not think of as a bad idea on what to post are based on criteria that are already flawed in themselves. Things that need to be said often go unsaid, while things we really shouldn’t say get past the filters.
So… between “probably” and “likely”, which one do you use as the stronger word?
“Probably” is the stronger one, right?
Probably?
(Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
I think it’s likely that you could have.
Well snap.
In case anyone can’t remember, Ethan is wondering if Joyce is still mad at him for the whole ‘do you see me as someone you can marry?’ ‘….I really have to get ready’ bit.
When was this?
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/get-ready/
I was thinking about the “I love my ex more than anyone else” bit, but what you point out was more recent.
heavy shit for the 14th
IT’S HAPPENING
I don’t know why, but i imagine an old yeller scene coming up.
joyce: go on! go on you!!
ethan: whimper whimper.
Er, that’s not how Old Yeller ended.
Harry and the Hendersons, maybe?
Joyce: “I can’t be with you anymore boy. *Sniff* Y-you’ll be going to a big farm.”
*Chambers a round in the shotgun*
I applaud your Valentine’s Day spirit. Very Klingon.
“Our love is toxic, Valentine, and can only be cleansed in a battle to the death.”
Ah, black humor – why are you so damn funny?
Get out of here, Ethan! Can’t you see I don’t want you anymore? Why don’t you go back where you came from? LEAVE ME ALONE!!! (SLAP) Go. GO!
…goodbye, my friend
(omg, you totally called it.)
Dude, spoilers. Give silent props via internet mind link or congratulate him on the current page, but don’t go “back in time” and confirm predictions in the comments. It’s not cool for the archival readers.
Shane! Shane! Come back, Shane!
And then she shoots him behind the shed. Because he was hers, so it had to be her.
… I love it.
Long live the new flesh
I sincerely hope that Joyce at least knows that there are better ways to break up with a boyfriend than a slug through his cranium.
She’s never had one before, so you need to expect a few mistakes/murder charges.
why of course, Doctor
Ahh, Valentine’s Day…
This is a bittersweet breakup.
As opposed to the previous Valentine’s Day, which had a bitterbitter breakup.
Holy cripes, I can’t believe that was a full year ago.
Clearly Willis is a HUGE fan of Valentine’s Day.
VD really isn’t for everybody…
Y’know, VD can also stand for venereal disease…
I am well aware of the double meaning, hence the reference to this old VD ad.
Every Valentines Day sucks because of this bullshit
Ask your doctor about getting VD today!
…. Oh yeaah it is V-day isn’t it.
Time to invade Normandy, my ancestral home…
That was D-Day, not V-Day
Doh!
V-Day is still WWII though – either when Donitz surrendered Germany, or when Emperor Hirohito surrendered Japan. And then there are parties! And morally questionable photos of kissing!
I feel particularly foolish since I should have known better at my age.
Those were V-E Day and V-J Day, respectively.
Oh, fuck. This means Danny is going to break up with Amber in order to fulfill the gay prophecy.
Nah, Danny actually likes Amber and is willing to have sex with her. Maybe he can have a boyfriend and a girlfriend.
Bi/pan doesn’t mean poly.
Sounds almost like you’re talking about cooking-ware.
Huh… Two panned handle? Cross connected cookery? Not sure where I’m taking this one.
Plenty of polymers are used as cookware, as well as pans. Dunno about bipans, but maybe the French use ’em.
While it doesn’t have to, it’s pretty rare in my experience for a polyamorous situation to work out long term without at least one bisexual or pansexual member. I could see a poly situation working well enough with those three short term seeing as Amber and Ethan still both have significant feelings for one another, the nature of their history would likely doom such a situation long term but thats not uncommon in poly situations anyway and in this case more likely than not would lead to an amicable end to the relationship. How Danny would feel about/deal with such an arrangement are a whole other kettle of fish.
What you’re saying may be true, but I think what Suitora means is that just because Danny is bi doesn’t mean that he’s poly. I don’t think particularly Danny would handle it well.
Danny is still vehemently against participating in polyamory, though. He couldn’t even bring himself to date Amber and Amazi-Girl at the same time.
Since he thought they were different people, and Amazi-Girl didn’t suggest that she’d be okay with him dating both of her, that doesn’t really say as much as you’re implying it does. At the moment I’m pretty sure the only thing keeping him from dating both of her is Amber’s identity issues.
If Amazi-Girl were to make clear to Danny that it’s not cheating if she’s watching with her hands down her jumpsuit, that might be a different story.
Danny will not date two different people at the same time. Danny believed Amber and Amazi-Girl were two different people, and tried to dump one.
Amber and Ethan are two different people. Do you see the problem now?
Danny won’t cheat on his girlfriend. That’s not the same thing.
It is totally the same thing. If Danny were polyamorous, he’d have considered asking Amazi-Girl to open the relationship, rather than immediately shooting Amber down.
That Danny didn’t spontaneously and independently conceive the concept of polyamory and take the initiative to propose it to his girlfriend (and, seriously, that’s risky) does not mean that he necessarily wouldn’t be open to the idea if she were to propose it.
Seriously, the dude doesn’t even know what bisexuality is. I’m pretty sure that he’s never been exposed to the idea of a relationship that isn’t either “one man, one woman, ’til death do us part” or “Joe’s chick of the night”. You expect him to just be born with this innate knowledge?
Did you expect Amber to be?
On top of it all, Danny has repeatedly expressed disgust with the fact that Joe sleeps with a different person each night. That speaks pretty clearly of his own preference!
But that is STILL different. Danny would be taking up a full blown, reasonably deep relationship with Ethan along with his relationship with Amber at the SAME TIME and WITHOUT cheating on either one of them. It could possibly work, but I’m not sure any of the features in this relationship are going to be able to initiate a three way relationship, no mater how viable it may be.
Of course I don’t expect Amber to have been. But I’m not the one trying to use the fact that someone wasn’t born with that knowledge to declare that they can never ever be open to the idea.
And, yes, Danny doesn’t approve of the way Joe does relationships. But that’s not what polyamory is. And like I already said, I don’t think he has a notion of relationships that include more than two people that aren’t the way Joe does it.
I’m with the kitty on this one. Danny has a rather traditional view on relationships. Polyamory would be a hard sell with him, to say the least.
I strongly disagree. Like Danny I would never cheat on someone I was seeing. Also I assume monogamy unless we’ve had a discussion to the contrary, so I wouldn’t start a second relationship while I was still laying the groundwork for a first. However, when those discussions DID come up, I found that I was open to a wider variety of relationships than precedent would have suggested.
Comparing a stable poly triad to cheating or promiscuity is ludicrous. I know a dozen or so people in stable triads that have lasted over a decade, and the structure of that relationship bears absolutely no resemblance to infidelity or what Joe does.
Based on the difficulty Danny has in coming to terms with his own sexuality, it’s likely he was raised to believe that only liking one gender was the “correct” way to do things. He could have received similar cultural messages about monogamy. Just as a noted preference for heterosexual relationships doesn’t rule out the possibility of bisexuality, a noted preference for monogamy doesn’t rule out the possibility of exploring different relationship structures.
I’m not saying that bi people are always poly, I’m just pointing out that culture pushes both heterosexuality and monogamy as the “default” forms of relationship. Just because someone started out embracing the cultural default doesn’t mean they will continue that way.
Danny certainly has a traditional view of relationships, but that doesn’t mean that he can never be open to anything else. I don’t believe that “poly or mono” is an inborn and unchangeable trait the way, say, sexual orientation is. It’s learned behaviour, down to cultural conditioning, and Danny’s been conditioned hard to find one woman to love forever and latch onto her like a limpet. We saw some of this when the senior Wilcoxen were here for the Parentpocalypse. That doesn’t mean that he can never learn or grow to embrace other behaviour.
Also, everything CulturalGeekGirl said.
Clearly a threesome is in order.
Considering the jumpsuit zips up the back, that’d be awkward as fuck.
Like everything else that involves Danny!
She could just drop the top half.
I’m pretty sure this is going to end up with Ethan outing himself to Danny, with awkwardness ensuing.
Vice versa.
“How are things with your girlfriend, Ethan?”
“Ex-girlfrind now, actually.”
“So this means you’re available, then? 😀 uh I mean oh no, what happened?”
Nah, it’d go like
DANNY: Oh, I’m so sorry! That must be tough… My girlfriend left in the beginning of the semester.
ETHAN: Oh… that must have sucked.
DANNY: Well, I have Amber now, and I’m happy with that. …So you’re single now, huh?
ETHAN: Yeaah… but you’re still with Amber.
DANNY: Yeah…
ETHAN: Huh? Why do you look sad? …Wait a minute! Don’t tell me!
DANNY: What? What is it?!
ETHAN: I know what’s happening! You’re flirting with me!
DANNY: I’m not gay! I’m not…!
ETHAN: No! You’re trans, aren’t you? It’s Joc all over again! Oh no!
DANNY: I’m not a drag queen!
ETHAN: So are you…
DANNY: Are… are you?
ETHAN: Yeah
DANNY: Oh god. …take me senpai…
(not saying transgender is anything like transvestism, I just figured Danny would be transphobic the same way he’s everythingelsephobic)
I don’t think Dany’s phobic. I think he’s just clueless. Although if he found out Ethan was gay… THEN he’d probably freak out. (Not because there is something wrong with Ethan being Gay, but because it means Ethan could reciprocate feelings and that would make things AWKWARD!)
Ah yes, the “oh shit I might actually have a chance” panic.
Danny might break up with Amber..if he were dating her. Breaking up with Amazi-Girl still leaves Amber open as a romantic option.
I think it’d be more likely that Amber breaks up with Danny. I think they’ll both leave it in an amiable way too. Simply because I think Amber cares more about Ethan than Danny and she’d actually care more about making Ethan happy if she could.
She also seems to be one more meltdown away from concluding that she’s not good enough for Danny. Amber’s already tried to claim that once, but then she started feeling better about herself.
Joyce should make Ethan date Becky! That way, she’ll deal with two birds with one stone!
Seriously, though, Joyce seems to be growing a brain.
Becky isn’t in the closet. That’s…a horrible idea.
Becky practically blew out her closet with the force of a kilo of C4.
Exactly, that’s why we need to shove her back in the closet with Ethan. He lined his closet with so much heavy duty shit she’s the only one who can free him now.
Grab the spineless guy who wants to be defined by anything BUT his orientation, and drag him to meet the strong-willed girl who wants to be defined PRIMARILY by her orientation.
Are you sure they won’t cancel each other out and both vanish on contact with each other?
I’m more worried about a matter-antimatter explosion.
Hey, at least it’ll destroy Ethan’s closet. And Danny’s. And pretty much every closeted gay, bi, pan or otherwise-non-hetero-normative person in a five mile radius.
Also, everything else.
Five-mile radius? I don’t think we’d even have a planet anymore.
Oh no
…Becky’s going to walk by right as this goes down and she’s going to find out, isn’t she?
Hell, I’m half expecting Mike to bring her there himself.
I think Becky will be fine if she walks in on Joyce breaking up with her boyfriend over this issue.
Might sting a bit to discover the full gravity of it, but she’s aware that Joyce’s relative acceptance of homosexuality is like brand new behavior here.
You know, barring any zany miscommunications. Like if she somehow walks in halfway through the conversation and lacking context thinks something entirely different from reality is going on.
That only happens in bad sitcoms.
Such as http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/02-choosing-my-religion/holes-2/
Yes but that only served to make a joke, the thing about those wacky misunderstandings that sitcom characters don’t understand is that you’re actually allowed to ask for clarification if you misheard something.
“Oh, sure, Joyce, you’ll make out with a gay person if he’s a guy…”
At the very least, I think Dorothy is.
Courage isn’t the absence of fear. Courage is when you’re terrified out of your mind, yet you still manage to push your way through anyway.
Thumbs up!
Plus 1.
Courage is standing up to the Monster in the closet. Courage is saving the weak from evil. Courage perseveres no matter how terrifying the situation gets. Courage does these things for love. Courage has bad teeth. Courage lives on a farm in the middle of nowhere with Muriel and Eustace.
Joyce is a lot like Courage.
If this comment system had an upvote button I would give it a hell of a click on this post
Same here.
Courage is a cowardly dog? 😛
I think you may be barking up the wrong tree …
Good for you, put down your head and run. You didn’t hide.
And laying it out for Ethan…damn…revelations all over the pace.
Valentines Day is a hype anyway.
Is this the moment when everything starts to crumble for Joyce? Is she going to be alright? Discover it on the next episode of Dumbing of Age
Same Joy time,
Same Joy channel.
It’s sweet that Ethan was coming to walk her home. I really, really want them to stay friends after the breakup. Ethan’s interaction with Jocelyne gives me hope for that scenario. I’m super proud of Joyce for doing this and excited to see how it all goes down. I guess Dorothy probably won’t be too mad about her dating a gay guy since she always cuts Joyce a ton of slack and she’ll only be finding out about it as Joyce does the right thing and breaks it off, but I’m interested to see her reaction.
Yeah I was just thinking, Ethan walked home Joyce every day without really knowing about the back stody didn’t he? That’s so sweet.
back story* Whoops.
As much as Ethan walking home Joyce is a good thing the guy is still quite a douche in my book
Ethan’s no douche. He just was approaching Danny tier in his really bad idea.
Hes pretty douchie in that hes been:
hiding behind a girl instead of accepting who he is then hitting on said girls brother
hes also been more than forward to his friends boyfriend, the same friend that defended him (at great personal cost) when he came out
Thats some pretty douchie behavior i reckon
His psuedo-romantic relationship with Joyce was their mutual choice, a bad choice, but theirs and I can’t see that it harmed anyone else. He treats Joyce like a friend and seems like he has been more supportive of her than some guys are to their real girlfriends …
The hitting on Joyce’s sister was not a … nice … thing for Ethan to do, but the guy is so massively conflicted and in denial he doesn’t seem to know that he’s flirting … so if we want to be super-judgemental then this is a place to start.
He’s clearly attracted to Danny, but has he done anything to try to turn that into a relationship that would threaten Amber? I’m not sure how you can condemn him for being closeted and for ‘stealing’ Danny at the same time …
Don’t forget:
1. Trying to change him was Joyce’s idea.
2. Amber has been fairly distant, too. She’s told Ethan that she needs more breathing room after the summer’s gauntlet (plus half the time they see eachother Amber just flips out, not cool (but still understandable)).
3. The thing about being a gay man is that for a lot of us girls just don’t hold our interest and we have a very strong tendency to look past them at their cute brothers.
He’s not perfect, but he still makes every effort to take care of Joyce and Amber, despite them not being hot dudes.
Well to be fair Ethan really wanted to stop being gay at that moment, and there was never really any “fixing” of Ethan done by Joyce. (Well beyond them pretending, and its obvious even Joyce knows its pretend before Becky showed up.) It was a relationship of mutual escape for both of them. It does seem like they’ve developed a strong bond, even if not romantic.
The real thing is that you can’t hold it against someone for being closeted, or retreating after coming out the first time goes terribly. It is a scary world and the only person that Ethan owes anything to is himself in this case.
And I’d agree that Amber’s feelings are valid.
He may not be a douche, but he’s… something. Never liked him, in either incarnation, and in this universe I can’t just tell myself that it’s just that I’ve no interest in toys.
I don’t dislike him, but he seems fairly bland as far as Willis’ characters go.
Seriously, I can’t help but feel sorry for Ethan here, too. He’s no older than any of them and he’s trying to deal with how very conditional his mother’s love for him has turned out to be. Yeah, his mom is an awful, awful person, but she’s still his mom and it’s perfectly natural for him to want her approval and emotional support. She’s made it damn clear that he isn’t going to have anything of the sort if he’s honest with her about who he is, and no matter how awful she is, losing that is still a frightening thing.
Ethan came out, and suddenly his entire life was defined and run by the fact he’d come out – and it was absolutely for the worse. Sure, he’s not being honest with himself, but he’s got just as much right to be tired of dealing with the baggage as Amber has. Doesn’t mean his decision-making skills don’t need serious work, but he’s just as much a dumb eighteen-year-old as any of the cast, and he needs a whole bunch of support he simply hasn’t been getting.
Becky may be happy to define herself by her sexuality right now, but Ethan isn’t: she’s okay, but so is he. If he’s going to feel comfortable with himself he needs someone to prove that his sexuality doesn’t have to override everything else about him. Wanting to be something other than Gay Ethan doesn’t make him a douche, it makes him human, and making a stupid decision about how to handle that just makes him a confused and unhappy one.
Near as I can tell, Ethan’s main flaw is his complete inability to stand up for himself, always favoring the path with the least conflict.
He didn’t even defend himself to his parents when he came out. Amber did. When it was time to pick Amber up for lunch early on, Ethan couldn’t bring himself to be forceful enough to pry her from her computer. Mike did. And now, Ethan couldn’t bring himself to stop trying to “rehabilitate” himself. But Joyce did.
He is a very nice person, but he has basically no backbone.
His main flaw is wanting to bang people that he really, really shouldn’t bang because of the massive amount of hurt, not to mention betrayal it would cause
No, that’s a complication, his flaws manifest in the way he deal with it.
Wanting an acting are NOT the same thing!
Wait, you’re saying his main flaw is “being sexually attracted to men?”
Not being attracted to men isn’t the problem, the men hes attracted to is
He was quite open with Jocelyn about being attracted to him and with Danny well this seams a little to close to flirting to be comfortable:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/orders/
He wants to bang guys then good on him but how about going after guys that arn’t his girlfriends brother or oldest friends boyfriend
You keep using the wrong pronoun for Jocelyn. :/
Yeah sorry about that, I guess because at the time of her and Ethans interaction she was acting like a he and Ethan was attracted to her when he thought she was a he so I described her as he when shes most certainly a she
I’m not sure entirely sure that came out right but hopefully you get what I mean
He’d love to, but Jacob’s straight and Walky’s taken (and also straight), so that leaves… Mike?
Ethan’s crushes are problematic because there just aren’t enough other dudes on the cast for them not to be!
Yeah, I understand what you meant. 🙂
@Chris – why we need gender neutral pronouns.
@Gig – Yeah, no. Mike X Ethan would not work out – Ethan does not seem like the type to enjoy Bondage.
@Chris – Actually, I could see Ethan X Joycelyn working out. Ethan obviously has attraction to him/her (double pronoun because one is gay, the other is trans), Joycelyn would probably be completely supportive of Ethan’s issues (having escaped that world a while ago) and both seem to share certain interests (Writing! Writing!).
That’s part of why I want Ethan and Joyce to stay friends. Both of them need to get comfortable with their desires – both in terms of sex and what kind of life they want for themselves – and become confident in pursuing their own happiness.
Hmmm, if Danny and Amber come along, Self-Esteem Quest will have a full party of four.
Will the quest end in a boss fight with Mike?
No. The quest will end in a boss fight UNLOCKED after a final training against Mike – the characters will have to defeat themselves for once and for all.
Better yet: their parents. With the exception of Amber’s mother, and possibly Danny’s parents, they have a lot to answer for.
No, their parents are the boss’s helpers (You know, the little guys the boss spams you with before you can finally attack him)
And both Amber and Joyce have been hurt by it, and I m pretty sure Danny is next
On the other hand, Amber didn’t have to live with Ethan’s parents, Ethan did. Yes, his mother is horrible, but she’s still his mother. Amber could walk away from the situation – she actually tells Ethan that the reason she’s been holding him at arm’s length since starting college is that she’s tired of dealing with the fallout from his coming out. Ethan can’t do that and he’s tired of it, too, only he doesn’t get to take a break from it. His life’s become far harder because he wants to kiss boys, but if he pretends he doesn’t maybe he gets a bit of a breathing space, too. I don’t think that implies he’s totally unable to stand up for himself. It’s more that his life has become far more complicated and painful since he came out, and he’s yet to experience any of the positives. What he needs is a peer group and what he’s got is Mike. Yeesh.
Ethan did break things off with Amber himself, and later stood up to her in defense of his relationship with Joyce (even though it’s fucked up on soo many levels).
I think Ethan’s main issue is that he wants to escape his sexuality, despite Amber’s best efforts.
Yeah, I think he can be a really great and supportive friend for her, and he can still help her feel safe until she’s ready to feel safe on her own.
oh nooo
And Ethan’s finally free. Male-male Slipshine imminent soon?
Ethan/Other Jacob
And they lived happily ever after
Only according to the fan-fic in Amber’s head.
No, not Jacob other Jacob.
Wait…which Jacob? I can’t keep that many Jacobs apart in my head!
I thought there was one…
There’s 2. One is a hot hunk of a man. The other is vibrating silicone
Sarah’s “Other Jacob”– the one she keeps hidden away in a drawer.
Until the batteries ran out.
I’m not so sure Ethan’s “free” though. It’s not like dating was only Joyce’s plan… Ethan wants to be straight for his parents and to not have to deal with how society treats homosexuality
Joyce is finding the courage to be honest. Can Ethan?
Ethan has never had the courage Joyce does.
This is exactly what Ethan needs – the courage to be honest.
On second thought, maybe he needs to talk with Leslie. I suspect she could help him a lot.
Ethan is deluding himself, a delusion which will die the moment he gets even a taste of guy lovin. I don’t even mean sex, the guy can’t even get near a cute boy without flirting, if he get s a kiss of the cheek or a hand held this delusion will die in fire.
It’s easy to pretend something you’ve never had doesn’t matter to you.
Given how much Ethan seems to want a lady who’ll help him back into his closet, clearly it’s time for some Ethan/Mary action.
If that happens, I will have an aneurysm from sheer rage.
Mary wouldn’t touch a Jew with a 10-foot pole.
I need this for reasons.
The reasons being masturbation.
Okay I was kind of rooting for Roz to be the one to find her but this is good too. Looks like Joyce is going to do the right thing. Finally. Ethan can still be there for her as her FRIEND but what they were pretending at just wasn’t right.
Not right AND not good for either of them.
Joyce is such good people
Good country people, at that.
OH GOOD LORD, WILLIS. You really are just gonna bundle all the Joyce-related catharsis into one big ball of feels for at least another week, aren’t you?
Well, good for you. Damn you, but good for you. I think my heart can more or less take it.
And the punches just keep coming.
Don’t know as Joyce is such a good person…but she’s getting there.
No. She’s a good person. She’s just working through her childhood. Some people have more than others. She’s got quite a bit.
She is as misguided as Bugs Bunny in Albuquerque, but her innate kindness and surprisingly open mind help her eventually make the right decisions even when they hurt and terrify her.
I read her as someone who is naturally a good, kind, helpful, considerate person who just happened to be born to a fundie couple and that good nature of hers has been warped by doctrine but now has the opportunity to reject that which is wrong and keep the rest of the good stuff
A listen Mary could learn from
A lesson I mean *sigh* thats what happens when you’re watching the cricket world cup at the same time…
Yes, Mary could learn it. Will she? Doubt it. Mary bought the indoc, while Joyce seems to be fighting it, allowing herself to grow and be a better person. Mary is a close-minded twit- or replace the vowel how you will.
I’d be interested in seeing an arc for Mary, to find out what turned her into such a hateful bongo
Does anyone know why bongo just turned up on my comment?
Looks like you triggered the cencor! 😀 BONGOS EVERYBODY!
But seriously, by word of God (Willis), the B word shall never again appear in the comic, forever replaced by drums.
That word is gender-charged and people used it way too eagerly and often to describe Roz a few days ago. So David Willis, fed up with it, set up an auto-filter to replace the word with “bongo.” I find it amusing and now kind of hope there might be a temporary mass autofilter of expletives on April Fools’ Day to change them into Joyce’s versions.
I don’t really see this plan working, now whenever I see the word bongo pop up on someone’s comment I’ll know what they really meant. The word still gets put in our head with or without the censor.
Huh. Guess it works for some and not for others. Sorry SUG, it must suck on your end.
It’s not about blocking them from expressing it so much as it is inviting ridicule upon the people who use the word extensively, as it is unlikely that such people are using free of its gender-charged nature.
Really? I thought it was just to soften the terms and allow for discharge while simultaneously making the rest of us laugh.
I think that’s what Gigafreak said.
Life’s a bongo.
And then you tom-tom.
I like this filter, personally. Turns a sexist remark into a silly remark. That is, until we thoroughly sully the word ‘bongo’.
Some people just want to bang on their drums all day.
Personally, I find close-minded twit to work far better than your percussion instrument of choice.
“Percussion instrument of choice” is always the cowbell, silly.
Well. That happened MUCH faster than I thought.
Now joyce needs to realize they CAN be for each other.
I agree to a certain extent, but Joyce is REALLY attracted to Ethan, so that might make things complicated.
PeeJee and Jhim?
Nice analogy, that works. Bonus that it’s from someone who also derives his life force from his readers’ tears.
Except that that one only works because Jhim’s completely and utterly oblivious.
I figured it’d be Ethan Joyce would be going to.
Same here. Becky knows Joyce accepts her for what she is.. Moore or less. She told her gay boyfriend to resist temptation. After a lesson on forced conversion, that had to hit her hard.
I still think she was actually running to Becky, but ran into Ethan. Either way, well-played Mr. Willis!
Im still not convinced Joyce meant to go find Ethan. I think she just happened to run into Ethan now.
…..i think someones having a mental meltdown in the progress and shit’s about to blow in the near forseen forture….. In other words…. HIT THE DEEECK!
Hitting the poop deck is not recommended though! There’s a crap-ton of shit going overboard!
There’s always shit going overboard xD
Also, I see you are continuing the grand DoA tradition of heartbreaking Valentine’s Day comics.
“Ethan….I missed yesterday’s gender studies, so can I borrow your notes on scissoring? Oh, and I’m totally cool with you being gay now, and are free to go all Korrasami on Danny”
I love that Korrasami is becoming synonymous with “everyone’s secret hopeful ‘ship coming true.”
Well, not just that, but also the “my two exes turned out to be gay/bi/pan and started dating each other” phenomenon. Amber’s exes, that is.
Crap. Spoiled. Dammit.
Still worth watching for the beauty of it.
Ethan’s not in that class.
Good! I mean. Awful. Terrible. But also good. You know what I mean? xD
Over here is still Friday 13, day of Saint Vorhees, but not for long XD
On a lighter note, I love the callback to the amazi-girl chase scene
Chasing other girls is become a pattern with Dorothy.
Roz, Amazi-Girl and now Joyce. Who will be next?
I’m sure Daisy hopes it will be her. 😉
*sigh* Why doesn’t anyone bribe ME with sexual favors?”
We can’t exactly call her a skirt-chaser when none of the above were wearing skirts at the time
Wait’ll Dorothy’s next scoop depends on chasing down some cheerleaders.
Joyce, you might be really growing up. Which makes me thinking you have a cute butt in the second panel less problematic.
Oh, good, I’m not the only one whose first thought that was.
Oh thank Heaven she ran into Ethan first.
I was really, really terrified that Willis might actually have her run into the real Ryan in her current state.
I would like to think that if that did happen, she would freak out in such a way that Ryan ends up in hospital as a result.
I’d pray for a Mike rescue. Mike may fuck Moms, but I don’t think he’d be likely to allow any kind of rape.
Given the parallels to
Ambers showdown with Blaine I almost expected that to happen
I like to think if she’d run into him there would have been a shriek so loud Sarah and her bat would spontaneously materialise and Amazi-Girl would come running.
Same here.
Maybe he shows up next strip.
Let’s see if we can work out this feels-nado around Joyce, shall we?
Joyce’s best friend confessed her love to her, came out as gay, and is now basically homeless, living in her dorm, and is now AWOL.
Joyce was confronted and berated–IN PUBLIC–as being complicit in the damage that the church-at-large has historically committed against LGBTQ folk.
Joyce is currently facing her fear of violence due to attempted rape.
Joyce is now running into the boyfriend she was trying to convert from his homosexuality, hoping for a chance to absolve herself of her own damaging world view and complicity in oppression.
I sense a serious need for real counseling in her immediate future. STAT.
WILLIS IS ACHIEVING CRITICAL MASS FOR BREAKING-THE-CUTIE. STATUS: DAMN YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
And with that last panel Joyce has jumped up massively in my estimation, the safe option is Ethan yet she now knows its not healthy
Good on Joyce for this
I should probably make some popcorn for this, shouldn’t I?
There are downsides to growing as a character 🙁
Damn – she freaked the fuck out when he hugged her in panel 4. That’s either an epiphany or a stroke.
Or it has something to do with being in the middle of a panic attack about fear of rape
I think panel 5 explained that – Joyce is remembering or realizing that she needs to break this off, now.
Can’t it be both?
?Half of the next five years of Dumbing of Age will take place in a hospital.
Sorry, but I can’t resist turning XOR statements into OR statements. Especially when both options aren’t mutually exclusive, like, say, having a stroke and an epiphany.
And Willis continues to feed his insatiable appetite for feels which gives him the strength to draw anew.
Boom..
also i seriously enjoy Joyce’s story in both worlds
And once again the focus of the story shifts away from Roz.. which is fair enough because she’s not a main character and that’s her lot. So of course there is no possibility she could ever possibly learn something from this or become a better person as a result.
Perhaps Roz will have a story of her own. It’s certainly not unreasonable. But this one wasn’t hers.
The point isn’t that she doesn’t have a story, I’m cool with that. But people here seem to assume that because we don’t see her learning ‘on camera’ there’s no possible way she could be learning.
Case point: The story where Roz talks about how she could be teaching the class, giving Leslie a chance to talk about how you never stop learning. It was a great point, but as the focus then shifted from the interaction between Leslie and Roz to Joyce’s reaction to what Leslie was saying, we never see what happened. For all we know, Roz actually realized that was a damn good point and was a better person because of it. However the default assumption is that Roz is A Terrible Person. Always.
It happened when they were talking about her sex tape and how disrespectful she was being to her sister, to Joe, etc. It happened when Roz talked about the party without realizing what Joyce went through and everyone thought she was fully aware of the attempted rape and just didn’t care. And it’s happening right now.
We’ve seen no change in Roz’s behaviour, she still believes she knows better than Leslie and that she’s morally justified. Until that changes, if that ever changes, she’ll get to grow.
We literally saw her behaviour change with this latest story – she recognized what she was doing and she left the room, even if she was angry when she did so. But that’s cool.
You know, one could argue that from the perspective of people in this class people have not really seen a change in Joyce’s behaviour. We, the readers have, definitely. Those close to her, sure. But not the everyday person.
Meanwhile there is literally any number of possible outcomes to that situation. We didn’t even see Roz fold her arms or roll her eyes or /anything/ after Leslie’s explanation about how learning about feminism etc is an ongoing process. There’s literally no information given to us as readers how she took that lesson, whether it be bad or good. And you’re saying that the only possible outcome of that encounter is that she ignored/rejected Leslie’s advice? OK then.
You assume that’s why she left. To me she just looked pissed.
Oh Jesus Christ, yes, let’s talk about *MY* assumptions about what happened. And of course you think the worst what we saw, that’s my point.
Because literally the only time Roz has ever backed down from an argument is when she realizes she’s wrong? Like what happened here?
Willis tends to shift between different stories or perspectives every few to several strips… I bet there’s more to this story for her.
roz’s story is that she has sex because rebellion and a deep seated need to feel loved because her parents were never there for her
Erm, are you being serious? I’m honestly not sure. But (a) I really just meant in terms of this storyline, and (b) what a patriarchal way of looking at it, if you are being serious. I’m pretty sure she just likes sex. Also, female sexual liberation.
That’s not a story. That’s a character sketch.
…I see.
My thoughts exactly.
is joyce finally about to end this mistake of a relationship? good. in the long term that’s the only good possible ending for both of them. Hope joyce gets some help with her trauma tho…
Ya I hope so too, because that’s being brought up every time she’s being confronted on something then entire situation is put on hold and that’s not good if she needs growth.
😀 ……. D: …… 😀
Yay, character growth!
Also emotional trauma! yaaaay? =C Wondering how much more Joyce is going to have to deal with in the next few in-comic minutes.
I like to remind people who think Joyce was trying to convert Ethan to heterosexuality that she was less interested in stopping Ethan’s homosexuality than she was trying to get herself in the stability of a sexless boyfriend/girlfriend relationship as a way to cope from the trauma of being almost raped.
And that she did what he asked her to.
She also brought him to church, which Joyce has just learned is a place where terrible things happen to people like him.
Describing a church as a place where terrible things happen to gay people is a bit like describing a school as a place where murders occur.
Except no school (that I know of) actually facilitates, aids, and covers up the murder for the murderer.
Better analogy: describing a church as a place where terrible things happen to gay people is like describing a mosque as a place where fanatics go before they blow themselves up to kill people. It is tragically true in many cases, but not universal. The fundies are no more the universal power behind Christianity than ISIS is behind Islam.
*TOUNGE BITING!!!!* (See, Crazy Dina does censor things. Although I think this is for the better… But then if I didn’t, I never would have started this anyway.)
Permission to speak without moral considerations?
As a general rule I don’t take anything said on the internet personally. I’m on enough antidepressants as it is. 🙂 As long as Mister Willis isn’t gonna step in and shut things down…
I would like to point out the following:
Using the terrorist “Muslum” groups in your comparison throws off both scale and legal context. Christian churches are currently allowed to do what they do (Not all churches do this, of course, but a reasonable percentage – hence Becky’s problem) whereas the “Muslum” Terrorists are indeed breaking the laws, not recognized by the church as being part of it, and are likely more evenly distributed.
What’s more, the “Christians” (And I use these air quotes more lightly than I do the ones around the term “Muslim”) refuse to recognize the crimes committed in the name of their religion and treat even bringing it up as a crime.
Not only that, those who go to a mosque right before blowing themselves up are at least sacrificing themselves. The “Christians” at the churches (with the full support of their relative church) are sacrificing NOTHING of their own.
So although your analogy is better, it is far from accurate.
… Wow, that came out a lot better than I thought it would.
Wowah, longer too. Thank goodness for paragraph breaks.
Reply for Crazy Dina re:Terrorism vs fundamentalism. You’re thinking too western world/United states. In parts of the world actions we describe as terrorism are actively praised and supported. Violence and discrimination are preached openly without fear of arrest or retribution, sometimes even as a part of government policy. The only difference is the amount of money each side wields, which is a factor of differing economic standards rather than religion.
@Smiling Cat: can you run that by me again? I failed to make sense out of your comment.
Also, I have very little clue as to what is going on out in the world right now. I don’t really have time to spend looking through entire articles right now, especially not when they are often small scale issues or about celebrities, and there are very few media outlets which hold even a little credibility. (I’m working on trying to get some decent news sources so that I can have at least heard of events when they come up, but I don’t exactly have time to spend on doing much more than checking the headlines.)
I’m sorry, but horrible as the homophobic policies in SOME churches are, they don’t quite compare to the likes of ISIS or Boko Haram. Few things can match that level of brutality and barbarism.
The point is less about how bad the bad elements are and more that the existence of those bad elements does not mean the entire group follows that creed.
ISIS manages to override my pacifism. They are an enemy of all mankind and should be hunted to extinction.
That… explains why republicans freaked out over one tiny historical fact.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/dvr/
Indiana University’s church group does appear to be the homophobic flavor!
Well there’s an important distinction there. There’s a difference between the particular environment Joyce is in, and her experiences, which greatly affects her immediate view. The hardline fundie path literally represents the Church for her, with her only real awareness of other groups being vague and kinda scared.
But I gots ta stick up for my peeps, yo. Quakers represent!
Ugg, “there is a difference between the immediate situation she’s in and the overall picture” That’s what I was going for.
As for Mary, well, she’s infectious human waste. What do you expect? Joyce’s future interactions with her will be either hilarious or tragic.
Mary’s congregation believes homosexuality is a sin.
Joyce is part of the same congregation.
Joyce brought Ethan to this congregation that believes homosexuality is a sin.
Joyce today realized that she has been directly complicit in the church’s oppression of Ethan’s orientation.
Oh, hey Quakers. If I remember from my history class correctly, there was far less hipocracy with them, and if you found yourself with a Quaker, you could at least expect a standard treatment of acceptance and aid getting the “essentials to life starter kit”. (My words, not my teacher’s)
Joyce chose the church based on the band and the casual recommendation of someone else she just met. She didn’t know anything about the opinions of the congregation. You’re attributing fault when she literally had no information with which to make that decision. It could have been any one of the numerous LGBT affirming christian denominations in the United States and Joyce would have still ended up there based on the exact same information. In fact, the specifics of the particular church’s doctrines HAVE NOT BEEN STATED in the text. All we know about them is that they remind Mary of her church back home, their musical performances reminded dorothy of a wiggles concert, Sierra found the carpets nice, and Joyce thought the boys were cuter than back home.
You can’t accuse Joyce of having forethought and knowledge of this church’s negative stance on the LGBT community when she clearly had neither forethought or knowledge of it, or when this negative stance towards the LGBT community HASN’T even been established.
Joyce has done wrong, but her sin predominantly is one of ignorance, not the malice folks seem determined to assign to her.
Didn’t she say at one point that her family had sort of tried several churches but had a hard time finding one that fit?
Didn’t they go to Mary’s church? If so, then we do know the church probably has a homophobic nature: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/dvr/
the church was “close to what I was used to at home”. Nothing specific. It could very well be, but I hold out hope that it isn’t just so everybody will turn away from Mary when the time comes.
That would be delicious.
Malice? Where did that come from? Malice is irrelevant. Joyce did wrong, she knows she did wrong, she knows that no number of extenuating circumstances will change the wrongness of what she did, and most importantly she didn’t make excuses. She is owning up to her mistake and facing it straight on, even if it means giving up her safe zone in a dangerous environment.
Who in the strip is still turned TOWARD Mary?
Really, that strip just means Mary’s Bible study group is homophobic. The group could be organized by students.
It really doesn’t even mean that. Very little of what Mary said in that comic was meant as literal truth – she was using it to send a context message to Billie (“I know what you’re doing”). While there probably is a bible study group, they may not be having a discussion on homosexuality. Even if they were, the group may be more open-minded about the subject than Mary suggested (that wouldn’t be a stretch, since Mary’s views tend to the extreme).
Joyce is angry at the churches for refusing to help homeless homosexual people or giving help only on the condition that they “rehabilitate.” She was outraged because this is why Becky has nobody to turn to.
Roz pointed out that Joyce herself has been complicit in this. Joyce realized that she brought Ethan to the church herself.
The thing is that homosexuality and the agenda against it and its practitioners is not the whole of a church, nor universal. While you might say, “Not All Men.” I would point this out primarily for the fact that I got my interest in social justice for homosexualities as part of my church’s Youth Group reaching out to gays who felt abandoned. Charities turning away gay youths is absolutely terrible and should be censored. I quit the Boy Scouts of America because of its policy against homosexuals. However, it’s important to remember the Boy Scouts are more than that and might yet be reformed just like the churches. It’s like Captain America destroying SHIELD. He threw out the baby with the bath water by believing HYDRA made it all bad rather than some bad which needed to be excised with a righteous fist.
I got my Eagle rank in Boy Scouts, hence I stayed in for the long haul. Wasn’t until later that their homophobic policies really began to bother me – when I saw a high-profile case of an Eagle Scout candidate being kicked out of Scouting altogether for coming out of the closet. I’m not proud of tolerating that policy before. Looking back, I wonder if quitting in protest (had I actually realized then how horrible that policy was) would have been a good idea. I… really don’t know.
This is not relevant. Joyce is in the same congregation as Mary, which absolutely does believe homosexuality is a sin, and she brought Ethan to it. It does not matter whether there are extenuating circumstances, whether Joyce knew that what she was doing was wrong, or whether other churches are more tolerant of homosexuality, because Joyce did not bring Ethan to those tolerant churches. Joyce raged against churches’ mistreatment of homosexuals, and it took Roz’s hammer-like words to make her realize that she has absolutely been complicit in it. She is owning up to it now and should be respected for it; downplaying the gravity of the consequences of her actions is the same as ignoring the significance of this moment of her growth.
Once again, where is the congregation’s opinion on homosexuality established?
We know Mary’s opinion. We know she was having a bible study group on the subject (bible study groups, especially on college campus, are not the same thing as a specific church’s congregation). Where is the congregation’s opinion mentioned? If you’re going to say “absolutely does believe” I would like to see proof.
And no, the mere presence of Mary among them isn’t proof. A church’s congregation isn’t thought controlled and doesn’t march in lockstep.
We know that the church has music Joyce loves. And church pews. Not much else is known, really.
I don’t know about the particulars of church and doctrine, but I believe that Gigafreak is right about Joyce realizing that she had been acting like the church/es she condemned in class, with roz’ s nasty attack serving as a catalyst. Catalyst because it sparked Joyce to huge phase shift whereas roz …not so much. Ironic, since joyce ran out to actually act on the insight, whereas roz stayed, ranting at leslie, clueless that Joyce actually took what she said to heart. Very nice work by DamnYou!
Or did she…take him to church? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYSVMgRr6pw
You don’t even have to bring up the rest of the congregation, you can consider Joyce as a representative of “the church”. She said that homosexuality was a sin, like lying, and she hates lying. Ethan was standing right there at the time.
And now she doesn’t, and she’s STILL part of the Congregation, though.
Oh please. Even I went to Summer Blast that last day after I disenvowed it because they were preaching at me. And I didn’t even really care for Summer Blast all that much any more!
Possibly. I’m just noting anti-homosexuality wasn’t some abstract thing certain Christians do, but was partly on Joyce – not to the point of driving people from their homes but certainly more than she would like. She has plainly taken that to heart, and is now trying to make amends.
Joyce has been pretty poor to all sorts of people at first contact. You’re gay? Yet you look normal. You’re black? This other person is perfect for you, they’re also black! You’re atheist? Aaa hic hic hic hic. Where she stands out is not in never doing anything wrong, but in learning and fixing her limitations.
Wait… what happened to Joyce’s book?
*books
She probably just dropped them when she pushed Ethan away in the last panel.
It’s been done before. “Faye straight up dropped that carafe on the floor between panels 1 and 2.” http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2477
It will be a brick joke in a few weeks, one of the men from the first panel yesterday will show up by her door…. “Sorry, you dropped these”
Ahaha, good catch! Maybe in the last panel, Ethan is frowning because Joyce’s books fell on his feet…
Wow, CrazyDina and TSB, you called it.
My prophecy will only be fulfilled if the next strip is Joyce sprinting away yelling BYE ETHAN over her shoulder.
Here is hoping. That would be hilarious… well, in a panicy, tear filled way
And now I’m going to try to call it again: Ethan does not let her run off alone because of her still being terrified of being assaulted again.
That may not be an issue, if Dorothy and walky have time to catch up.
As much as I dislike fundamentalism, I should also point out Joyce is probably a nice person in large part from the way she was raised. The horrors of the world aren’t so much that fundamentalist Christianity is “all evil, all ignorance all the time” but probably 99% “be good, kind, and compassionate to others” with 1% truly toxic hate and ignorance.
Peculiarly, this fits with the “one drop of sin spoils the person” metaphor they’re very fond of using.
Joyce’s adamant determination to do the right thing no matter what is very much a product of her upbringing (as is her often lacking ability to figure out what that thing is)
I get the feeling she’d be like what she is now if she’d been brought up in an atheist household, she really does seem like a genuinely good person
Of course, it’s not the belief in God which is the clincher (or Dot would be evil) but the belief in treating other people with compassion and love. It just so happens Joyce’s church doesn’t apply that universally, which Joyce realizes is incompatible with those values.
I don’t think “good” is genetic.
I’m sure genetics plays some role; it probably makes the difference between the Joyces and the Marys of the world. Yet upbringing is nonetheless a huge influence on a person’s character.
Thats why I’d be interested in exploring more of Mary to see if theres a reason why she is the way she is or if she just happens to be a major b-word
I think it’d be interesting to find out Mary converted to fundamentalism from a secular family. Some of the most irritating and judgmental people I’ve ever met didn’t grow up in the environment but came to it later in life. My favorite author, Elaine Cunningham, HATES paladins from D&D because in real-life a relative of hers was a brutal and horrible father who converted to evangelical Christianity–then dumped on his family for the fact they were damned without his religion.
I also wouldn’t be upset if we found out Mary isn’t pure evil but compensating for something horrible.
I don’t even think she’s pure evil now.
There’s a pretty strong theory in the fandom that Mary wears those wristbands to cover up her Tragic Past like Sal wears the gloves.
@Fred: Hmm, looking through archives, she is never without them, even when naked.
Ehh, maybe not, actually.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/monsters/
That’s why I dislike the more ‘militant’ atheists. They can only see the bad side of religion, and so attack it relentlessly. Religion isn’t just a bad influence, though.
My sister-in-law is…weird. She’s one of the Bible Thumpers who hates Harry Potter, which is ludicrous. However, it would be ridiculous to say that she’s not a good mother, a loving spouse, and someone who goes out of her way to help people whenever possible.
Just occurred to me that a Sith Lord is advocating the good side of religion. Traitor.
Alas, yes, I eventually will sacrifice myself and be redeemed. Albeit, the metaphor is messed up a little by my dying act being one of murder. They overlook that in the Force, it seems. 🙂
Love brought about your downfall, and murder redeems you. Was George Lucas playing Mad Libs?
You just explained Episode II.
“George Lucas playing mad libs” I mean
The act of murder was done out of love for his son.
Extremism is always bad. No exceptions. The louder and angrier you get, the more you drown everything out. Life is nuanced, extremists aren’t.
I don’t know why your reply reminds me of the “if you’re so tolerant then why can’t you tolerate my intolerance” saw, but it kind of does. Not that I disagree, though, I can’t even come up with a hypothetical situation where extremism would be good. Except for the situations where it takes extreme acts to bring the attention of a complacent populace to someth…wait, am I advocating terrorism? Oh man I need sleep…
Well, yes. “Extremism” is tautologically bad, if it wasn’t bad it wouldn’t be extremism.
An optimist assumes that 95% of people are nice. A pessimist prepares for the other 5%.
Realist. Real realism, that is. Not the kind that is really pessimism but calls itself realism…
I find myself wondering why Ethan would think that Joyce would be mad, and I have to go back all the way to October to find the last time the two talked. I know that Ethan’s gay so they’re not fully a couple, but damn it Willis people in relationships need to have communication on a greater than quarterly basis.
You mean, two days ago, in-comic? 🙂
I foresee Joyce, after breaking up with Ethan, will return to her room to cry. Becky will return, comfort her, snuggles lead to kisses, passions rise, kisses and caresses become more ardent, clothes come off and … Presto! … the Slipshine episode everyone’s been waiting for. There’ll be so much screaming, someone will call the cops.
… Becky? Keep your wish fulfillment fanfics of the comments section.
What am I saying? Keep them coming
Okay, seriously. Keep the SLIPSHINE on the Slipshine please! Some of us REALLY don’t want to see that stuff but are addicted to Willis’s comics anyway.
Fuck no.
Stop talking about Slipshine during moments that aren’t even remotely meant to be titillating.
That’s okay, fleshling Joyce. He’ll still be there for you when he hooks-up with Danny in 20 years. This comic is going to surpass the Walkyverse in longevity, but never get past Halloween.
Thank you sir for this beautiful Valentine’s Day gift.
Oh god my heart. It’s 8:30am and you’ve already made me cry, Willis. Damn you etcetera.
AM?!?! Holey %#$^ Where in the world are you? (You don’t need to give me specifics. Country will suffice)
Posting at 1:30am Eastern, saying it’s 8:30am local, means Eastern (GMT-5) + 7, so GMT+2. Here’s a list of possibilities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B02:00
That timezone sounds like it’s in eastern Europe, or somewhere with a similar longitude.
Finland 😉
7:36pm here Christchurch NZ
8:36 in Hawaii.
12:40AM here in Missouri, USA.
Okay, so I see a number of you people in America. But seriously, Heavvy has to be on the OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE GLOBE!
3:48 AM here in Nova Scotia, Canada, but the comic’s been up for a couple hours or so.
I need to go to bed. :/
I’m pretty sure everyone here except @heavvymetalqueen does.
I very much needed to but I had to work, alas 🙁
The comment was posted around 1:30.
Heavy Metal Queen claimed it was 8:30.
Seven hours ahead of Willis’s time zone should peg HMQ at about…England, maybe?
As unofficial holidays go, in the Walkyverse all are horrible except ‘Talk Like a Pirate’ day.
Joyce’s emotions are going supercritical…
I hope this ends well with Ethan feeling good about his identity, not hating himself even more for ‘ruining’ this relationship.
As for Mike jerk moves, this one has lasted the longest. If Ethan does learn to accept himself I predict Mike messing with someone else in a big way soon.
I use this as a way of illustrating DOA Mike isn’t some sort of Zen warrior therapist but just a guy who enjoys screwing with people in hurtful ways. He’s not Mummy Twilight but Hannibal Lecter.
I dunno, looking back at the posts with Mike and Ethan, he always seemed upset whenever Ethan returned Joyce’s advances, most vocally here.
I go with him being a plot device that somehow gained sentience. But you’re right – persuading Ethan to stuff himself back into the closet, and actively deceive some straight girl to boot, was horrendous advice. Imactually started out reading DoA first, and that particular scene had me peg them both as being horrible people. i was half right.
I read that strip differently, especially since that scene was followed by Mike’s dumbfounded statement right after. Afterwards, it was all “What does your god say about homosexuality/lying?” and “Yeah, Ethan, what is the catch?”
So yes, sentient plot device sounds appropriate.
Mike. Was. Being. sarcastic! He never wanted Ethan to pull this crap and has displayed annoyance at it every step of the way. You people just see what you want to see and refuse to listen.
Yeah I always believed he was being sarcastic when he introduced the idea too. But once Ethan actually decided to go along with it he preferred to just let the guy dig his own hole rather than admit he was being sarcastic or try to talk Ethan out of it.
if so, he’s terrible at sarcasm.
I suppose Joyce completely falling apart is better than HAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOVE JOKES LOL LOVE REALLY STINKS AMIRITE GUISE that literally every other webcomic is pulling.
This is why I think Willis is an excellent webcomic writer. He may not be able to keep a comic going perpetually this way, but it’s better than stagnation.
Literally every webcomic? I have some exceptions.
Well, wait until the comic actually gets to Valentines day.
It literally frustrates me when people use “literally” to mean “not literally.” Intellectully I’m aware that languages change, and words sometimes come to mean the opposite of their original meanings (“with” meant “against” in Old English, a meaning it retains only in phrases like “fight with,” and “auburn” used to mean “white blonde,” for examples).
I still hate being in the middle of the process when it happens to new words, though.
I’m reminded of this:
http://xkcd.com/725/
It is so sinister!
Had Brian Williams been using ‘literally’, he may have been able to worm his way out of his current mess. So hard to tell when that word means ‘actually’, and when it’s just an exaggeration.
How about “for reals” in place of “literally”?
Joyce, it will hurt more than you’ve ever been burned and you will have a scar. Stay with the pain, don’t block this out. Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing! This is your pain, it’s right here! Don’t deal with it like those dead people do. What you’re feeling is premature enlightenment. This is the greatest moment of your life, Joyce! And you’re off somewhere missing it. Our fathers were our models for God. And, if our fathers bailed, what does that tell us about God? Listen to me. You have to consider the possibility that God doesn’t like you, he never wanted you. In all probability, He hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen. First you have to give up. First you have to know, not fear, KNOW that some day you’re gonna die. It’s only after we’ve lost everything that we’re free to do anything.
Joyce’s father hasn’t exactly bailed, he’s respected Joyce’s space and decisions (…as long as said decisions included biblical citations), but I’m sure he’d be there for her if she needed it…the problem here is they disagree on what is best for Joyce, and likely Becky for that matter. So he’d be THERE for her if asked, but he probably wouldn’t be there for HER, if that makes any sense.
Though I have to say it’s a bit of a logic leap to go from “Christians doing shitty things in the name of the church and God” to “God hates you, my little chick now fly, go free!”
Or were you quoting something and the reference went entirely over my head? I feel like this is a good example of that thing where a parody becomes indistinguishable from the/a real thing.
A google search turns up Fight Club.
Thanks, it sounded weirdly familiar but I thought it might just be the proselytizing vibe.
FINALLY.
Previous valentine’s day strips:
2011: Joyce and Joe yelling at each other after their oh-so-lovely date.
2012: Joe being flabbergasted at Danny for not hitting that sweet Billie ass when he had a chance.
2013: Daisy suddenly being interested in what Billie has to say about her Hitleresque RA.
2014: Billie totally blows her sobriety pact with Ruth.
So with this year that makes it 3 very anti-romantic ones, one talking about freak that didn’t happen, and one that… is kinda barely on-topic?
Oh, and for all of you newcomers still trawling your way through the Dumbing of Archives? Spoiler alert.
Also, in the 2013 one, Willis discovers the realm of hovertext.
And so the world was doomed.
…. wait, that was the “kinda barely on-topic” one, right? Okay, “barely on-topic” got promoted to “world is doomed”.
At this rate, in 2016 Amber’s gonna find Danny in bed with Ethan, in 2017 Faz is going to force Dina into a relationship with him, and in 2018 the government is going to ban love.
2018 would, of course, be legislation introduced by Robin to undermine the reasons for non-religious marriage and thus appeal to her voting base.
Walkie’s line in panel 1 kills me.
Book Title quote if ever I heard one.
Walkie may be experiencing some deja vu since he and Dorothy JUST did this trying to get Amazigirl. XD
Finally God…wait no some reason I feel like this was bad timing.
Good girl, Joyce!
Joyce is so infuriating sometimes and then she is so sympathetic. I really, really love how Willis has taken us with her on a journey that is so often maligned and overly simplified. I’m just really grateful that I live in a day and age where I can read and recommend comics like this.
Aw, I was rooting for Joyce/Ethan.
I was gonna berate you, then I saw that you’re a Sith Lord. Explains everything.
*weeping openly*
you guys can still hang out! He can still be there for you! Platonic love is as legitamate as romantic! You don’t have to go from dating to nothing! Be friennnnnnnddddddssssss
I thought so too. But, like Amber before her, Joyce may need a break from Sexy Loco (okay, Danny’s words, but still).
No, that was “Sexo Loco”
Artistic props for Willis: I love the effect in the second panel.
Oh, yeah. THAT.
Joyce? This is the wrong gay friend. This situation isn’t critical. Go look for the other one.
+1
Becky isn’t.more in danger now than this morning. What changed is Joyce’s understanding of gay people’s situation, and that’s what she’s addressing here.
On the contrary, Mrs. Brown has started sniffing around, and Joyce will have to call her back eventually.
Becky stormed off, angry with Joyce. There’s zero chance Ethan’s going to wander off and become homeless because Joyce is still bearding for him, but a very good chance Becky’s going to leave because she doesn’t believe Joyce supports her.
Please please please have danny walk by as Joyce outs Ethan to everyone
Woah, she’s going throught the worst emotion rollercoaster ever right there. Ouch.
Oops, I’ve gotta go!
http://fsa.zedge.net/dl/ringtone/62af5c53d2a396f4b80e2d13a912d54c/tardisoriganallaunch.mp3?ref=touch&type=mc
OH MAN here we go. Feels trip everbody, it’s gonna keep on going.
I don’t get it. The whole thing.
What don’t you get.
The WHOLE thing. Why can’t he be there for her? And the rest of the strip. I don’t get a whole lot about romance in general. But especially why he can’t be there… ARGH! IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!
Specifically, she can’t let him be there for here as her boyfriend, both because he’s gay and because she’s been using him as a means of dealing with her trauma without being honest with him about it. He can still totally be there for her as a friend, if she’ll let him, but she’s just recently been forced to admit to herself that their relationship is based on mutually agreed-upon denial.
Eh, *here/her.
I get the sense that Joyce might just push him away entirely, which would be ill-advised.
Well, yeah, either that or Ethan might feel super hurt and walk away before she gets to explain everything. Wouldn’t be a David Willis comic (or any kind of compelling drama) without communication mishaps.
Ah. makes sense now… Thanks for the explanation!
I’ll wait for the next few strips to pass any actual judgement, but I was kind of hoping the break-up would be something that happened on its own time. As it is now, it kind of feels like Joyce is saying this on the way to another problem.
Of course, she might have been looking for Ethan the whole time, and not Becky like we all assumed.
Weird. This wasn’t supposed to be a reply.
That’s why she freaked out it wasn’t because of Becky. It was because she did realize what she had been doing her whole life and what she was now doing to her Boyfriend. Forcing them into a sexuality that didn’t fit them out of fear.
Ethan is clearly scared of his own desires and Joyce realizes she is just helping him hide in that fear and even feels like deep down she is causing that fear.
Must be the worst feeling in the world realizing you are effectively bullying the person you care about.
Well described.
About Joyce trying to “help” Ethan with his homosexuality… She hardly knew what a gay person was (and probably had some sort of Pride caricature mental image). And yet Ethan – mr. Man of her marriage inspired dreams – come out to her as gay AFTER they started dating.
Repressing parts of yourself is a fundamental part of Joyce’s brand of religion. We are all sinners. We are not worthy. We have to fight temptation every day. When Joyce offered to pray or Ethan that wasn’t exclusively related to his gay-ness. People like her pray for everyone, especially for herself and temptations of glorious man-chests.
So what was she supposed to think? Ethan clearly wanted to be in a relationship with her, knowing perfectly well what SHE was, and Joyce only knew one kind of relationship (husband-wife-many-kids). He wanted to go to church with her, he wanted to do all the (chaste) girlfriend-boyfriend things, nothing he did suggested he wanted to be gay. Joyce tried to help him in a very misguided way, but it was the way he signalled that he wanted.
Good riddance that they finally break up, though (how long have they dated by the way? Two weeks?), and I’m not surprised that she is the one who ends the charade rather than him.
Yes! Yes! You go, Joyce. Of course, this is going to be awful, but it’s the right thing. Poor girl.
Prelude to the most awkward and uncomfortable of the sexy time off shoot strips.
Time for the band-aid to come off!
I foresee this ending horribly as she outs Ethan against his will and ruins his campus experience because we can’t have nice things.
Joyce never was one for half measures…
Something like this? At least fewer people are within conversation distance right now.
Dorothy: “If we run, we can catch up!”
Walky: “We wouldn’t have to run if we weren’t standing here saying we need to run!”
Dorothy: You know just as well as me that talking is a free action.
You fool joyce! He’s into anal, you maybe don’t consider it REALLY sex! Everyone gets what they want!.. in the butt.
Somehow I know Willis planned it out that this update would be on Valentine’s day
Thanks to the Buffer Watch thing at the side of this site, he knows exactly when his comics come out when he draws them.
Joyce in full panic mode
THAT GIRL NEEDS THERAPY
[It’s psychosomatic]
THAT GIRL NEEDS THERAPY
[It’s psychosomatic]
Pretty sure this is Joyce realizing that yes, its okay to be gay. Becky is, and Joyce justified that. Then with what Sara said…about her and Ethan? Joyce realized she cant make him be what she needs, any longer.
I don’t know. What with how changeable and open relationships can be nowadays, I can see a straight woman and a gay man (or a straight man and a gay woman) in a platonic relationship, where they seek their sexual satisfaction elsewhere.
That just wouldn’t be something Joyce would be down for, at least not at this point in her character development.
I think explaining the concept of an open relationship would break Joyce:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/04-the-bechdel-test/hic/
Again.
Okay, My mind has decided for her: it’s adorbs!